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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/littlebee/littlebeecvr.jpg) | January Book Club Online
"Little Bee"
by Chris Cleave
Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined.
In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion. |
Facts:
*Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960. Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens.
*Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world. Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high. There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse?
*The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called, to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense. |
Reading Schedule
January 2, Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9, Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16, Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31, Conclusions
Discussion Leaders: Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com ) and Andy (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
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Every once in a while we come upon a book that speaks to us in an urgent way, touches our heart and resonates with us. That was Little Bee for me.
Andy and I would love to share this moving book with you. We cordially invite you to join us for the discussion in January.
Traude
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Hello everyone! We would be delighted to have you here and join in on our discussion of Little Bee.
There are many disturbing issues that grabbed me while reading this story, mostly the dark politics between first and third world countries and the plight of the refugees who suffer the most. I had no idea that they even had detention centers for these people, much less children who had been torn from their families.
Little Bee makes you smile and cry with Cleave's witty and heartbreaking story.
We will be here to welcome you on January 2nd-- let us know if you are interested, come in, sit awhile and enjoy this novel with us.
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This book sounds like one I would enjoy. When an author can write convincingly in two voices I really enjoy the reading.
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Hello, Jackie, and WELCOME aboard!
Yes, this book has caused quite a stir also in this country; many libraries have long waiting lists - hence the warning in the header :)
Thank you for your interest.
Traude
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I'm looking for the book already.
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Happy Sunday morning and WELCOME, nlhome!
We are glad you will be joining us.
We begin the book on January 2nd; there will be no pre-discussion.
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Welcome aboard nlhome and Jackie. So far we are 4 and Annie expressed interest in this story, as well.
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My library has a copy of Little Bee, so I hope to join you in January. I hope it is not a depressing book. January is kind of a tough month for me ever since my husband died. Don't know why--new year and all, I guess.
Sally
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Hello, Sally, and WELCOME. We are glad to hear of your interest.
It is understandable that January is difficult for you because suffered personal loss in that month.
For me it is November when - seven years part - I lost first my husband then my only sister.
Thinking of you.
Traude
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Loss is so difficult for all of us, and it seems particularly so during the holidays. My neighbor has this book and has loaned it to me, Traude, and I'm not very good at discussing fiction, but I will follow along if I may.
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Thank you, Ella, and WELCOME. It will be good to know you'll be with us in some way. Thank you
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Oh Ella- yEAH! ;D I am so pleased that you will be here with us through miss Little Bee's adventures. Much of this story is factual but the real political issues such as oil access in Nigeria are shadowed with the ethical issues that we all must face.
Sally- Always remember "Death is what has made a life an event."
It will be good to turn your sorrow upside down and greet Little Bee with a smile. She has many sad moments, as well, but you will find yourself cheering for her.
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Now we are six. :D
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I just ordered this book for my Kindle. Itsounds interesting. I will look forward to our discussionl
Sheila
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Hello, Sheila. WELCOME ! We're pleased you will participate in the discssion.
And now we are seven :D
Traude
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SHEILA, and others. YOU WILL LOVE THIS BOOK!
I just finished it as it was a loan from a neighbor and I wanted to get it returned. However, I'll get a library copy when we start our discussion. We will have so much to talk about, truly! It's a wonderful story.
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Ella, thank you for your resounding support of Little Bee. It means a lot, coming from you, who are generally more partial to nonfiction than fiction.
What makes this book 'important' is not so much the plot but the issues it raises: immigration, and in tandem personal accountability, courage, compassion, and something we might call quiet heroism.
Thank you again, Traude
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I have just borrowed this from our library - was amazed to find it sitting on the shelf - so I will be starting it soon and hope to join the discussion. It isn't my usual type of book, so it will, as they say, get me out of my comfort zone. The last time I ventured beyond that was to read Empire of the Sun , which was so harrowing that I needed several doses of McCall Smith, Barbara Pym, PD James, etc to recover. - but I'm sure it's good for me!
Rosemary
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I just picked up my copy - hope to start it this week yet. It, too, is different from what I usually read, and I'm looking forward to it.
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nlhome and rose- It is also the issue of faith- acceptance and certitude. I think each of you will glean something completely different from this story and that is what makes an excellent discussion.
I don't think that I have a comfort zone- well, that's not true, one thing I can never read or bear to watch is the "holocast" stories and yet Book Thief was one of the best book discussions we've had (and the one I enjoyed so much). You're right- I guess we all do have our own comfort zones.
I enjoy living vicariously through the characters of a story, don't you?
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Andy and Rosemarie, it's true about a comfort zone", I realize, although I've never consciously thought about it. And yes, some books do make me uncomfortable as well.
I had to chuckle :D, Rosemarie, when I read about your needing healthy doses of Alexander McCall after Empire of the Sun. Though I never read the book, said to be autobiographical (or anything else by Ballard) , I can confidently say that Little Bee is nothing like it.
It is rather a book of our time that has received global attention because it affects and touches all of us in some way, developed and developing nations alike.
The request on the cover of the American edition carries a politely phrased but unmistakable 'request' not to "give the game away" before the actual ending. In my experience that's unusual.
It makes me wonder, Rosemarie, if the original text carried the same warning. Thanks in advance.
nlhome, I'm glad you have the book.
More later
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Apologies for not following right up, as I intended.
What I wanted to share earlier - but had difficulty articulating - is the fact that I "sold" my GP on Little Bee. It sounds awfully presumptuous, which I am not. So please let me explain.
I had a regular checkup with my GP, an internist by training, and there's none better in our fair town. I do not mind the long waiting involved - first in the waiting room, then in the examining room where BP, pulse, and meds are checked first - because I always have a book with me.
And every time he asks me what it is.
This time the book was Little Bee. He immediately took out one of those digital thingies and tapped in the info. I'm really no good at selling anything, but I must have convinced him ! I had no idea I could do that !
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Bravo for you Traude. I do the same thing with my books and Bill's doc. I just talked him into the Whisteling Season for his wife.
Everybody who is interested in joining us, spread the word. We would love to invite new readers into our discussion. We're easy and it will be fun. Come one, come all. :D
See you in January.
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Hi Everyone!
I resisted joining the book club when I was on the Soiree! but have now succumbed!
I will be reading "Little Bee" although i understand it has a different title in the UK.
It's about time I read a good book instead of watching the google box!
Gay Hector
(Bow_Belle)
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Gay - in the UK it is called On The Other Hand. I have just taken it back to the library, shoudl you happen to live in Aberdeen!
Rosemary
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GAY- My goomba from England, I am delighted that you will joining us in this discussion.
As you have found out, I am like a dog with a bone and am pleased that you have succumbed to my nagging. ;D
The book is everything that you are: amusing, sensitive and informative.
Rosemary- do tell! Did you like the story? I have found many times that even if I do dislike a novel, when we discuss it it comes to life in an entirely different manner.
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I have mixed feelings about the novel. I felt that the English characters were just awful, with no redeeming features whatsoever - totally self-centred (despite the event on the beach) and never stopped naval-gazing. I was, however, very interested in all the stuff about refugees and detention centres (we are made aware of their existence here, but that's about it - the book certainly opens ones eyes as to what is going on in them).
I think you are right, - when one starts discussing a book, one often feels completely different about it, so I reserve judgement. A friend of mine read it at her own (face to face) book group and felt it was "the worst novel we had to do all year"! I wouldn't go that far! She felt it was unconvincing in that anyone working in journalism would have known that they shouldn't be visiting Nigeria in the first place. Many people in Aberdeen work in Nigeria, and it is always a strictly single-status posting - no-one takes their family there. I await January with interest.
I have borrowed Staying On from the library - amazingly they still had it in the Reserve Stock - and have started it; so far I'm enjoying it, and I'm looking forward to hearing more about what happened to Sarah Layton.
Rosemary
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Rosemary- thank you for your candid opinion about the selection. I will rebut only one fact because I am afraid to give away any information until we get started . The couple went to Nigeria in a controlled environment and were told NOT to go outside the "gates" of the hotel complex. Their wish was to get far away together. How else would the author put them there in that time and place, I wonder?
I know when we honeymooned we went to Jamaica and were also told not to leave the confines of our complex. They had, and are still involved in a civil war there. Did we listen? NO! (I'll never do that again.)
Hang in there with us, I believe you will be pleased with the way the discussion unfolds. ::)
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A friend loaned me the book, and I've just finished it. I'm not much on book discussions, but I thought I'd lurk to hear what everybody had to say about this book.
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MARYZ- I'm not much on book discussions, but I thought I'd lurk to hear what everybody had to say about this book.
May I ask why you're not much for book discussions? I've read many of your words and insight on the boards and that surprises me.
Well, do stop in and visit at anytime. Your thoughts and observations are always welcome. I'll send you a note to "nudge" you when we begin. ::)
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Alf, I love to read, and to talk about books sometimes, but just for pleasure and maybe to learn something occasionally. And I enjoy them as a whole - I don't particularly like to dissect them. I know a lot of folks enjoy that, and with this particular book, I'm really looking forward to what some others have thought about it.
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Found the book at the library book sale, so I am on for January..
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Oh great, Stephanie. :D I look forward to seeing you here in January.
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Good morning, all! And a special Hi to our DLs, Traude and Andy!
I will read the book, since it looks like it's worthwhile, but I'm unsure about how much participation.
Between Latin 300, which is quite difficult, and being a TA for Ginny on Mondays in the Latin 101 class
I'm somewhat busy. Not to mention lots of time spent on volunteer activities. This is such an extraordinary
group on SeniorLearn that I'll try to chime in when I can.
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Mippy- Our Ginny is a superb teacher and I'm certain that you are a dedicated student BUT do try to stop in and say hello, give a comment, make an observation, wish us a happy new year-- what ever. Traude and I would love your presence whenever you can squeeze us into your schedule.
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Thanks, Andy! :D
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I was able to get Little Bee from the library and will be joining the discussion in January.
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URSAMAJOR- That is excellent that you will be a part of our Little Bee discussion. We are very pleased to have you aboard. I will send you a note just before the 1st of January to remind you of our date January 2nd. :D
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This book is on the shelf in my library. I'll get it out closer to Christmas so I can join you. Right now I'm listening to "Three Cups of Tea" for my f2f book club meeting next Tuesday.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/littlebee/littlebeecvr.jpg) | January Book Club Online
"Little Bee"
by Chris Cleave
Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined.
In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion. |
Facts:
*Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960. Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens.
*Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world. Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high. There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse?
*The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called, to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense. |
Reading Schedule
January 2, Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9, Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16, Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31, Conclusions
Discussion Leaders: Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com ) and Andy (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
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I just finished the book and will join you for the discussion.
I'm sure it will be an interesting one.
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I just got a notice that the book is being sent to me from Bookins. I even get free shipping this time, so the book is free! I'll start reading it as soon as it arrives.
Nancy
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NANCY- free?????????? Wow, I want to do business with them.
JUDE- Traude and I will be pleased to have you on board. We'll see you in January to kick off the New Year just right.
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I'm interested in joining the discussion if I can get my hands on a copy
of the book. I thought my library had it, but they have only the audio
version. I put "Little Bee" into the county system catalog and drew a
blank, which really surprised me. Still looking...
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The library called the copy I had back. I am sorry because it helps to have it in hand when we discuss the book. I found it pretty harrowing.
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Hello America!
It is good to be with you again and I hope I can give you some impressions from an old man up North (Cold and Snowy Sweden).
You should know that I am really looking forward to get the privilege of talking about books (and life!) with such witty and nice people.
The fact that this book seems interesting and important to all of us, who are living in the west, is of course the main thing.
So now I have a new reason to look at the coming year with anticipation.
A nice Christmas to everyone
from
Lars-Olof Andersson
Sweden
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Lars-Olaf, in cold and snowy Sweden- Welcome to SeniorLearn and our discussion of Little Bee.
I can not begin to tell you how much we love to have new eyes and opinions on our boards.
We are an eclectic group of readers with diverse opinions and we welcome each and every persuasion. Our differences are what make sharing a book so absorbing.
You should know that I am really looking forward to get the privilege of talking about books (and life!) with such witty and nice people.
Hahaha- I will try to keep that "nice" adjective in mind as we delve into Little Bee's terrain.
Have you read the book yet?
Babi- I have read the book AND listened to it on audio. Take the audio addition, it is wonderfully read. If you would like I could remind you where to stop in the discussion. Personally, I preferred the audio. Please reconsider and join us. :D
ursa-Even though you had to return your book, would you please stop in and give us your comments? We would love to hear from you & I agree that there are many parts that are harrowing. Unfortunately this alarming and chilling story is happening, as we speak. I will send you a note when we begin.
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Oh, woe is me, the book is out & I am on the reserve list at the library and am hoping that I get it before the discussion starts. Keep you fingers crossed for me.
Sally
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Uh, ALF, sorry, I'm deaf, I really can't use the audio. :-\ I'm going to see if my elder
daughter can get it at her branch library, tho'. They do have it, but there are about six holds
on it.
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Well drats Babi. I'm sorry, I knew that, how careless of me. Sorry! I just got so carried away thinking that there was someone else who could listen to the different "inflections" used by the speaker on the audio version. she does a fine job. I would send you mine but I need it for the discussion. I'll see what I can do. ::)
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I know how an audio can be made or ruined by the speaker, ALF. I remember years ago
listending to a poet I really liked read his own poetry. He was awful! He definitely should have
let someone else do it.
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Since January is right around the corner, is there a reading schedule around I can look at? I'd like to have the pages read before the discussion of those pages.
Thanks,
Nancy
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Nancy- I'm not at home now so I don't have my notes, but I think that we are reading the first 85 pages.
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Okay, that will give me a starting place. The first 85 pages at least this
week. My book, I'm delighted to say, arrived Christmas Eve day. It's
like an extra Christmas present, thanks to a dear friend!
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Great Babi- We look forward to you joining in. Christmas eve?? Wow! Santa brought me a NOOK. Aren't we fortunate to be so loved?
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OK.. Home now.. have Little Bee in my hand and went to here to find out the first assignment.. So. the first 85 pages it is.. Up up and away.
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I need some more information about how far to read. My copy of "Little Bee", is on my Kindle, and it doesn't show page numbers. Could someone please tell me a few lines from where the first reading ends? Thanks.
Sheila
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Hang on Sheila- my book is upstairs. If Traude or someone else comes to the rescue before me they will let you know. If not- give me a bit and I will check it out for you.
I have been reading on my new Nook, playing and fiddling around with it and just thought about that very thing last night. It give chapters and I think that pg 85 takes us thru chapter 5. (I THINK.)
Steph- It will be good to have you aboard. I am anxious to get out of this 8 degree weather and return to sunny Florida.
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I bought my copy ages ago, and then forgot to look for the pre-discussion. I'll be joining you. Off to tart reading.
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JoanK - has all this Christmas food gone to your head? ;D
Rosemary
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hi there
Deb here, presently in Rockport, Texas.
its interesting who keeps popping up in the various book groups-its great that no matter where I am seniorlearn.org & the book groups will be here (if that doesn't make any sense to some, its because my husband & I travel from November to May mainly to and around Texas, and home is in Ontario, Canada, the rest of the year)
this book sounds very interesting
...would really like to obtain a copy of this book, unfortunately not able to access a library now we are on the move, so will look for some second hand book stores in Corpus Christi when we go there this week, ...the book store here Rockport does not have a copy....I've left it so late don't think an amazon copy would get to me in time
...but following the group's comments on this book am eager to read it
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Sounds ideal, BOOKAD. Summers in Ontario, winters in the Southern U.S. You should have
no trouble finding the book you want in Corpus Christi. If you've been there before, you know it
is a good sized city with just about all you could need. Probably too cold for the beaches, but
the scenery should still be good.
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Bookad Deb- Welcome to our site and our pre-discussion of Little Bee. We are pleased to have you join us. I'm sure, as Babi said, you should have no problem finding the book. See you Jan. 3rd.
Joan- you silly christmas goose, pull up a chair now that you have found us.
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Hi Bookad, one of our contributors, jane, is in transit now from her home in Iowa to South Padre Island for January & February. She checks in when they stop for the night, so will be seeing your post. I'm sure she can recommend a place to get books. She's just gotten a Nook, so she can carry (and replenish) her supply of books with her more easily. ;)
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I'm reading Half-Broke Horses for my f2f book group which is meeting on January 17th, so I'll start Little Bee now so I can keep up with both.
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Deb...I'm not too familiar with the bookstores in CC, although we spent one Feb. on Mustang Island. I think there's a B&N there somewhere...maybe on SPID ?, but if you can find a used bookstore, so much the better. Enjoy CC!
jane
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Steph, you lucky duck, you got a "gently used" Little Bee at your library book sale? I checked out the library copy, am almost finished, and since it wasn't on the hold list I was hoping I could renew it. But, no such luck as it was due yesterday and now someone wants it. So, I will finish it tomorrow, return it and get back on the hold list -- and make special note of the first 85 pages.
When I checked out Little Bee my hold on The Room came up at the same time, so I started that one first -- definitely outside my comfort zone. I spent little more than an afternoon with it, and returned it to the library. Interesting, both books have children similar in age.
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I see my posts are breaking into staggers again. I have NO idea why that
happens.
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Reading a bit at a time.. Odd start to a book,but I am sure all will be clear eventually. We spent some time in Corpus in a very nice RV park close to the bridge.. Huge shopping center nearby.. But dont remember any used book stores and I kept pretty close track when we were in the rv to trade out our read ones and get ones new to us..
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I'll show you how smart I am Pedln- I thought that I had downloaded a sample of ROOM and lo and behold dummy here downloaded the whole damned thing. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
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Deb again
just returned from Corpus Christi, lucked out found $7.00 copy of 'The Bee'--wonderful second hand book store called
'Half Price Books', 5425 SPID 185...address ...huge store
015mgr@halfpricebooks.com
--will be adding this to my notes of places to remember in transit
so now to begin reading
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Deb...Half Priced Books is a marvelous store. There's also one I found in San Marcos, if you get up that way.
jane
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I just popped in and saw the book choice for January is "Little Bee." Alf, I too was a good girl this year because under my tree on Christmas morning was my Nookcolor, the one gift I was so hoping for. It took me the entire day yesterday with tech support from Barnes and Noble and Netgear along with reviews on the site to get me connected, but alas, I am all up and running. I have checked and I can purchase Little Bee for 9.95 which I suppose is not a bad price since I just read bookad got a used copy for 7.00. So, I will be joining the discussion, although I must say I have read the reviews and it will be outside my comfort zone as well. But there has never been a discussion with our SeniorLearn members I have ever felt out of my comfort zone with so we will tackle this together. Looking forward to it......off to download and read my first book on my nook.
Ciao for now~
p.s. This was an interesting quote by The Kansas City Star about Little Bee, "It's also about the insular versus the global. ... Cleave's book asks us to step outside our own tidy borders, let the world in and embrace our own an other's humanity."
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Have almost finished the first 85 pages. I love the writing! It is outside my comfort zone as well, but now that I've started it, wild horses couldn't keep me from finishing.
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Started the book last night. Had to put it down. Story too intense for me. I'll lurk while you discuss it.
Nancy
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Finished the first 85,, but the foreshadowing is getting deeper and deeper. I will hang in there and trust all of you to keep me from falling into a hole here.
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Outside my comfort zone as well. Doesn't get any better, either.
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You can all hold hands with me, I have read the whole thing and although I have re-borrowed the library copy for this discussion, I will not be re-reading the entire novel - like you Nancy, I may just "lurk" :)
Rosemary
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Ditto, me too, on outside-comfort zone!
Regarding reading on Kindle, although I'm reading hard copy of this, 25% of the book would be the usual first week of 4.
Does that work for any of you reading the Kindle version?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/littlebee/littlebeecvr.jpg) | January Book Club Online
"Little Bee"
by Chris Cleave
Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined.
In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion. |
Facts:
*Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960. Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens.
*Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world. Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high. There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse?
*The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called, to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense. |
Reading Schedule
January 2, Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9, Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16, Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31, Conclusions
Discussion Leaders: Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com ) and Andy (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
Bellamarie:Oh my heavens I downloaded Little Bee into my nook late last night, read 22 pages instantly, went to bed, picked it up this morning and found myself mesmerized in reading this. Thank goodnes I charged up my nook last night, could not imagine running low and not being able to read this story without interruption. I had to take a break once I got to chapter three, because there is so much emotion and things to take in, my mind needed a time out. Phew...this is not a book for sissies. Don't take this critical in any way, but I would not recommend it to anyone who is not up for the emotional roller coaster just the first three chapters have the reader on let alone ursamajor stating, "it does not get any better." Steph, rosemarykaye has offered to hold our hands through it so let's take ahold and see if she can keep us all from falling into the hole. In this case the hole of darkness and sadness. I'm off to play a couple of my Zynga games for a bit of fun and socializing with my new found facebook friends. I recommend everyone reading Little Bee to do the same, read in small portions, and take many breaks doing fun things.......
Ciao for now~
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Yikes- Jan 2nd. I thought we started on the 3rd. Let me get those emails out to remind everyone when we begin.
Bellem-Cleave's book asks us to step outside our own tidy borders, let the world in and embrace our own an other's humanity."
I love that quote. Life is heavy and burdensome enough for us and when you are made aware of the atrocities "outside of our world" it becomes disturbing. We will all hunker down together and follow Little Bee as she buzzes through her young life.
Rosemary and Nancy- You won't only lurk I'll betcha! I think that we all have a voice of reason and concern regarding the issues in this book. It's difficult NOT to speak up and out. The beauty of this group is that you feel comfortable respectfully speaking your mind even though others may disagree. I get passionate about these issues and need to speak aloud and I always encourage others thoughts and participation.
Steph- I promise you you will not fall into the pits. If you start to sway, I'll hang on to you. ;)
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It's almost time for the start of our discussion - long prepared for, long awaited. \I am so very glad to see so many of you back, new and long-standing readers. And I am grateful that Andy is with me on this journey.
We've put up a new header (thanks, JoanP), which provides background and factual information and is the "opener" - instead of the introductory, searching questions.
Nonetheless questions do arise in a discussion, and all are encouraged. Thankfully, we've Rosemary with us. She lives in Scotlan an can help us out when we get bogged down by historical, geographical or social queries.
We're off to a fine start. Our comfort level regarding this book is certainly of prime importance.
So are our other immediate impressions on :
* The alternating narrative voices and their effect on the reader
* the flashbacks in both narratives and their effects - distracting or ?
* Can we draw tentative conclusions about the character of the two dissimilar women ?
* In the main, the story features two women
* Should we not also consider the men in this story ?
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I hope the sun is shining where you are -- it is here, finally, after last Sunday's blizzard that crippled the entire Eastern Seaboard.. Here it was here a wild and woolly Nor'easter that brought hours of power outage and, mercifully gone the next day. Let's hope all passengers stranded in airports last weekend are on the way home.
T
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I got ready to fire off emails here, with the link to remind everyone that the discussion will start on January 2nd, 2011.
I find that there are 5 people who have displayed an interest but whose emails I am not privey to and that would be Sally, RosemkaryK, Steph, bookad and bellamarie.
If you would please just show your presence in here once again to make us aware that you will joining in on Jan. 2nd, I would appreciate it. I do not wish to leave anyone out.
I love that Traude has mentioned we are trying something new here. We aren't going to pose direct questions from the book each week but allow the book itself to prompt us, as vicarious readers, to ask one another the questions based on our own impressions.
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Andy :) :)
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I am here - I thought my email was available on my profile? It is rosemarykaye@yahoo.co.uk.
I am not sure that I am going to be much help on this one, but always happy to try.
Rosemary
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Andy, I am bellamarie726@aol.com. I am looking forward to Jan 2nd.
Happy New Year to all SeniorLearn members!
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Bella and Rosemary- when I click on your name where you post, it says that your email address is hidden. Check it out.
I am happy that you'll both be here and Rosemary, Little Bee and WE need all the help you can offer. ;)
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I've read the book, and will probably be lurking.
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MaryZ- please see post # 81 about the lurking difficulty.
;D
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I understand, Alf. ::)
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Ican see where we are all embarking on a new adventure for us. That is probably a good thing, but somewhat scary.
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I will note here a tip I picked up on another discussion. When you publish your email address online it is well to avoid the conventional form:
For reader@aol.com you can use reader at aol dot com and avoid being picked up by automatic scanners.
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BELLA, as a word of encouragement, I find Cleave is able to suggest a
good deal without going into horrid detail. So far, so good.
Thanks for that great tip, URSA. That's good to know.
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I'm new here, joined this morning. I have purchased the book, and will begin to read it. I look forward to being a part of this group
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Wow- Crescent witch, there you are already! I was trying to find you on our boards to give you the link. Bookmark your spot here, do you have any questions that we can help you with to assist in your navigation of the boards?
We are delighted that you found us here and that you're joining our trek with Little Bee. We start on Sunday Jan. the 2nd, in order to allow everyone to recover from the holidays. ::)
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thank you for the welcome. I started reading the book, this will be a wonderful way to spend this new years eve; a nice glass of champagne and this book.
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Sally, here. I will be joining this discussion. My daughter gave me a Kindle for Christmas and I have downloaded Little Bee and already read the first three chapters. Do the chapters run the same on a Kindle as in a regular book? I am a techno-tard (her word for me) and am struggling somewhat with all this new technology. However, I think this is one "toy" that I am really going to love, even though I accidently purchased something while learning to maneuver around. Fortunately it was only $l.99 and is NY Times crosswords ( which I will play with).
Sally
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Hi, Sally,
Re: Kindle
Whenever you purchase something on your Kindle by mistake you can reverse it. Once time I did that, and by sending an email to Amazon, they took it back off, no questions asked. I haven't exactly figured out how to do that on the Kindle itself, although if you stay on the "buy this book" page for long enough, it says "did you buy by mistake?" and you can say yes.
Enjoy your Kindle! It's great!
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Happy New Year Everyone :)
-belatedly checking in, up early with my favourite reading time 5 a.m. or so, quiet, no distractions, purring cats, snoring dog, windily outside, getting cooler, they say a cold front is coming in should be a nice day to go for a walk
up to chapter 3 in the book, taking it in bits to let it sink in
reminds me a bit of the style in 'The Blue Notebook', my RV park -winterhaven-Brownsville's read for December
--reminds me of how lucky I am to be living in the country I live in and count my blessings
all the best to you--did you get my e-mail Alf?
Deb
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:D Happy New Year everyone. I have read the first 85 and am ready to go tomorrow.
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Does the discussion begin here, or will we be transferring to another
site?
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Hi Deb - just saw that you're in Brownsville. Our bookie, jane, is on SPI for two months. I'll be visiting family in Edinburg and Weslaco for a weekend in February.
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Babi- I believe that our discussion will start right here, where we are now. I'll contact Traude to verify.
Deb- our book ad (dict)- I love that! Yes, I did r/c your email and responded to you in your home email site.
Thanks Mippy for keeping an eye out for our new Kindle readers. I've got my new Nook and have spent hours navigating and learning all about it. I didn't realize that you could change your mind after you made a purchase that you didn't mean to make. I did the same thing, I wanted to read a sample of Cleopatra and would up buying the damned thing. Oh well. I am now reading Empire of the Summer Moon, Hells Corner (new Baldacchi) and American Assasin.
Sally- I'm not sure that the pages would be the same on the e-reader but I don't think the chapters change. At the end of our 3rd chapter where we stop it says: " If I was telling this story to the girls from back home, I would have to explain to them how it was possible to be drowning in a river of people and also to feel so very, very alone. But truly I do not think I would have the words."
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I had to return my copy to the library without reading it, so I may lurk a bit to see if I want to request it again.
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nlhome- Of course you will be tempted and wish to join us. ::)
You may just as well go ahead and put your order in. ;D
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maryz--I guess I didn't make myself clear,we were in Brownsville, from Nov-Dec 15, then left for Aransas Pass, and now in Rockport, Texas, shortly to be moving for New Orleans, and gradually ending up in Ft. Myers, Florida, (glad about Florida as I know of a great book store in Sarasota, where hoping to get a reasonably priced copy of the next book in the Durant discussion with the 'civilization' discussion group. (previous years we have spent the entire winter in Brownsville, though.)
Deb
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bookad- look me up when you're in Florida. Perhaps we can meet at a middle rendezvous spot.
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Deb, I see Alf has already "claimed" you for the Florida bunch. Lucky you! ;D
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Come on down MaryZ, it's not too far from Tennessee.
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This is true - and tempting. ::)
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CRESCENTWITCH: WELCOME WELCOME! What would you like to be called?
I got a kindle for Christmas, too. I'm waiting for tomorrow when my daughter comes over to hook it up -- I'm technotard also. My friend telss me they give you a free sample of two or three pages, so I already have a long list to request.
I knew I was getting it, so thanked my family by singing this song (modified from Parnell Hall - King of Kindle)
I'm always getting books by mail
It really is a pain
Orgoing to the library
Getting caught in all the rain
I want to be the Queen od Kindle
That's what I want to do!
I want to be the Queen of Kindle
And I will be, thanks to you!
Yes I'll be the Queen of Kindle
And I surely won't forget
You made me the Queen of Kindle
Buyin' books on the Internet.
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Joan, i love your little ditty. I'm going to forward it on to Santa with the name change to Nook.
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Andrea, Mary if the opportunity came to be able to meet you in our travels that would be great--we are presently enjoying Rockport so much may bi pass New Orleans and just remain here for another month; (wish I could be here in September though as I understand Rockport is on the migratory route for hummingbirds in the Autumn --what a sight that would be)- we should be in Florida the latter part of February thru till the end of March, and then have to be out of the country by 25 of April
Deb
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We have a full house, it seems. It's gratifying and exciting.
A Big Welcome to all the new readers who joined us from places as distant as Sweden and Down Under, and old friends, as well. We are privileged to have one of our nonfiction DLs, Ella, here with us.
This folder was opened on October 16, 2010 when Little Bee was first proposed. Readers promptly expressed their interest, a qorum was reached quickly, and the discussion scheduled to begin on January 2, 2011. All the posts are found here, only the header was changed to reflect background information, and to provide a reading schedule.
The back cover of the American edition carries this (somewhat unusual) request:
We don't want to tell you WHAT HAPPENS in this book.
It is a truly SPECIAL STORY and we don't want to spoil it.
NEVERTHELESS, you meed to know enough to buy it, so we will just say this:
This is the story of two women. Their lives collide one fateful day and one of them has to make a terrible choice, the kind of choice we hope you never have to face.
Two years later they meet again - the story starts there.
Once you have read it, you'll want to tell your friends about it. When you do, please don't tell them what happens. The magic is in how the story unfolds.
This request is the reason for our omitting the preliminary questions that are the customary opening of our discussions. The book is told in chapters in the voices of Little Bee and Sarah O'Rourke.
The suggested reading schedule is more a schedule for the discussion, because we are always free to read as much we we want --- as long as we don't divulge it in the discussion too soon. :)
For Sheila and others using electronic readers without page numbers.
Though I have not seen or held one of these devices, I feel reasonably certain that the digital version will show the text in precisely the same fashion - in successive chapters - as the printed editions.
The first portion for discussion, to which we'll get tomorrow, comprises the first three chapters.
In my post # 82 on 12-30 I mentioned some thoughts to ponder.
What are your impressions of the adolescent Nigerian teenager who has nothing but hope, and about the self-assured publisher of an edgy women's magazine in
London ?
Does the author's method of telling the same story from the perspective of these two different women annoy, confuse, or help ? Were you impelled to read on ?
Steph, you are right, this is a different approach, and it may be scary - like all new things we've never tried before. But life does put us into position we did not imagine, and even so we must go on ...
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Iwill chime in with Alf.. I would love to see you. Sarasota has lost two of its larger bookstores in the past year.. The big remainder place downtown is gone.. And one of the two used ones has also disappeared. I think the one on BeeRidge Road is still there.. and the lovely corner bookstore downtown is there as well.
Little Bee.. The writing style is quite different. At this point in the book, I am more than a little confused.. I also confes that I am not as sympathetic as I could be about being an illegal. Part of that is I live in Florida and we are knee deep all the time in people who come from Central and South America and just flat out stay. I also live close to Disney and there are a number of people here that came as tourists and stayed.. It is hard on the economy.
Little Bee obviously had very bad things happen to her. I think when I read on, it will be easier to figure out what is happening.
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Steph, I have the same mixed feelings as you. We would generally like to see ourselves as liberal open-minded sort of people, but since the EC has admitted so many eastern European countries, we are also over-run. We have lots of Polish people who are absolutely lovely, they all get jobs and work very hard, but some of the people from other countries are less industrious and seem to have taken to begging as a way of life. it is now difficult to walk down any main street without being accosted many times - of course there are also "local" beggars, and they are just as aggressive, but the problem is really getting out of hand. As these people are here legally they are also apparently entitled to claim our social security benefits, which not surprisingly causes a lot of discontent. In addition to that we have illegal immigrants like you, though maybe not as many as we do not have a border with any other state.
I find the whole issue very difficult - if people are prepared to suffer all the terrible hardships that they do to get here - hiding underneath lorries, in cargo holds of planes, etc, - then they must be desperate, and how can we, in our comfortable western lives, judge them? If I lived in a poor country with terrible problems, wouldn't I want to live somewhere else? but that does not stop me getting riled when I walk to the shops and get accosted several times in the space of 5 minutes. I suppose the whole thing boils down to politics - as the heading above says, Nigeria (for example) should be a wealthy country, but its people are impoverished because they do not see the benefits of their country's oil. I don't know how you sort that out, and I imagine that many people would say that the troubles in these countries all stem from our own colonisalism (and that of France, Belgium etc). I don't know enough about that to comment.
Am off to re-read my 85 pages.
Rosemary
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Happy New Year to All!!
Thanks for mentioning it's ok to read ahead, as long as we don't post spoilers. I always tend to read ahead
and have done so already. This book is very, very difficult for me because of what happened. I'll have to read
in the afternoons, not just before bed time. For me, nightmares are possible.
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Again, thank you for the warm welcome, you can call me Kay or crescent, I will respond to either. I have read the three chapters, its a difficult, emotional book. I do like it so far. I find that I have to think more than I'm used to, usually I just want to be entertained. When does the discussion begin, or is this it? I live in Potsdam, NY, four colleges in a ten mile radius, people from all over the world come to this little town, lots of diversity.
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HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL OF YOU IN 2011- with many blessings.
I am so excited that we have finally arrived here together and have just finished reading all of your reasonable thoughts.
Steph and Rosemary admit to the conflicted feelings about illegals and the whole immigration mess. Let me echo your sentiments BUT I can not begin to feel that way about Little Bee. First of all she did not wish to be brought here. She's only 14 years old and without giving anything away, she has suffered horribly. She would much prefer to be back in her own setting- of that I have no doubt. I was surprised that so many of these centres exist globally, aren't you?
*The "Black Hill Immigration Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called, to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense.
Now Mippy- if that fact alone isn't enough to give you nightmares, I don't know what is. I suffer from nightmares and can not imagine what this 14 year old must endure at night.
Traude asks us "What is your impression of the Nigerian teen" and I, for one am greatly affected by her strength of character in this lonely, foreign country, with nothing but her wits and wiles to accompany her.
Kay- I too am a New Yorker (originally before treking south to stay warm) and love the area where you live in the fall especially. I used to read only to be entertained until I found SeniorLearn (Net, in those old days.) Since reading and discussing books here, I tend to view the contents while reading in an entirely different way i.e before I wouldn't have appreciated the impact of what Cleave has done on page 1 alone.
LB wishes herself to be as a British pound coin instead on an African girl;
"safe, traveling deserts and oceans, warm, secure, serious and disguised as power or property."
She loves the idea that the coin can transform itself and dodge authorities. That's a feat she can aspire to, as well.
Now that comparison won my heart immediately.
Little Bee practices speaking with the voice of Queen Elizabeth and uses that successfully.
If you get a minute check out the info above that we've provided for you.
I didn't even understand what globalization was before reading this story Kay.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/littlebee/littlebeecvr.jpg) | January Book Club Online
"Little Bee"
by Chris Cleave
Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined.
In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion. |
Facts:
*Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960. Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens.
*Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world. Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high. There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse?
*The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called, to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense. |
Reading Schedule
January 2, Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9, Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16, Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31, Conclusions
Discussion Leaders: Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com ) and Andy (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
Well, ALF says this is the place, sidebars and all, so I'm going to plunge in.
My first impression of Little Bee is that she has a tart tongue, and it revels a young girl
both wary and hopeful, harshly realistic and not at all naïve.
It is horrifying to think she has experienced pain that makes her constantly be alert to a way of suicide, “if the men suddenly came”. In that one brief phrase, repeated again and again, without detail, she manages to convey a sickening sense of rapacity and violence.
With all this, there are still the notes of humor. For instance, the line that she figured out “how to kill myself under Labour and Conservative governments, and why it was not important to have a plan of suicide under the Liberal Democrats.” I do hope someone British will be able to explain that one to me.
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Good morning, everyone, and a very Happy New Year.
This book, with all its flashbacks, is going to be hard to discuss without spilling some beans. But I like the style, of mixing the protatongists and letting them speak up about whatever memory comes up in their minds. Keeps one up on his/her toes.
I'll get back immigration later, but my first thoughts in this book are on Charlie. Why the everpresent Batman suit? Is Sarah just being understanding about this or is there another reason. And my does the child speak as he does? The author never misses a beat there, does he.
Babi -- yeah, if the men came -- death would be preferable then. Wow.
My book must go back to the library today.
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The constant thought of dying, of wanting to die for Little Bee is similar to the depression Andrew felt and the final act of suicide. He must have thought of killing himself everyday, just as Little Bee did. The comment about the men coming is very disturbing. I'm going to continue to read, I don't want to miss a thing.
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crescentwitch- I feel sorrier for LB than I do Andrew.
"The African girl they locked up in the immigration detention, poor child, she never really escaped. She is still loclked up in there, forever, under the fluorescent lights, curled up on the green linoleum floor with her knees tucked up under her chin."
At least the weak Andrew found a way out of his misery. Little Bee will continue to amaze and amuse us with her strengths she discovers daily. What a journey for all of us.
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Thank you for your responses. Your points are well taken.
Chapters 1 to 3 have not fully revealed how Little Bee, Sarah and Andrew met.
But what Little Bee experienced, even before meeting Sarah and Andrew, was so traumatic that she is haunted by the fear of the the men coming back for her, again. In that case, IF they come back, she wants to be prepared to kill herself, wherever that may be and by any means available at that time. Such planning, I believe, holds the fear at bay and gives her some sense of security. After all, one of the first things she tells us in the book is that she is a survivor.
She's lived in the bleak building with the linoleum floors and the glaring lights for two years. She is about to be released. She still hopes.
Not so Andrew. He is haunted by his memories of that terrible night on the beach. He's unable
to find his way back to his former life and performs is job at the Times without the passion he had for it. He can't sleep. He's ready to end it all.
Charlie and his fierce identification with Batman is surprising. My son grew up in he sixties and I remember the TV series. The author tells us that his two energetic young children were very much "into" the character.
There may have been a thematic reason for giving Charlie and Batman such an important role in this story.
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Deb here
listening to little Bee talk, and realizing how significant a small gesture of a bottle of nail polish in a care package is to her mind frame, and how she rationalizes another persons length of stay in detention by the accumulation of their wardrobe (likely from some persons excess clothing)-to me a powerful way of making emphasis of her situation and stamina of her inner being
-to find a young person in her age group needing to bring to the forefront of her being strength against a situation not of her making is so sad......and she doesn't succumb to feeling sorry for herself it seems
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Ikeep wondering iifLittle Bee thinks that it is not "If the men come", but "when the men come". Her fear is overwhelming. I know it is not fair , but I keep thinking that African countries cannot seem to break the poverty and starvation barriers.. How many years have they had some sort of civil unrest in most of the countries. and Why are you saying Nigeria..Did I miss a reference??
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Steph- Little Bee is a Nigerian, displaced teen refugee. Their is strife throughout the entire country and I just read an article about the wars in Somalia, Darfur and all of Sudan which all have roots in tribal competition for land and livestock. Nigeria's is for oil exploration threatening the population and their holdings. They are working on establishing diplomacy (I don't see that working.)
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There were three girls that accompanied LB OUT of the detention center. I loved the Jamaican woman who had the
savy to get them out of there, the second girl who didn't speak English just "holding on to a bag of lemons" (her yellow sari) and the third girl with all of the papers. She is the one who told LB of the atrocities of the "men-coming" that also frightens Steph.
LB panics with the thought of the men coming-
"the-men-came-and-they-"raped-my-girls- burned -my-village
- tied-my-girls
- took--my-girls
- cut-my-breast
And on and on these atrocities were related to LittleB, each story ending in "and-then-they-put-me-in-here."
Good Lord, if that's not enough to scare the bee-jeebers out of some child, nothing is.
[/list]
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Happy New year to all
I wish to answer the question posed as to why Bee didn't have a plan to kill herself under the Liberals. This is because they have not won an election since 1916. Because we had no clear winner at the last election in May this Year the Liberals went into Coalition with the Conservatives because the Labour Party did not have enough Members of Parliament even with help from other Parties (i.e Northern Ireland MP's etc) to form a Majority. The writer had no way of knowing that they would ever get any power!
My first thoughts are that Bee says that money can cross boundaries and can move freely around the world but not people. I can see that the way that Asylum Seekers and economic migrants are treated in this country is clearly high lighted in this book.
The writer is showing how dispassionate Bee has become to survive her incarceration for two years at the tender age of 14. Bee mentions facts and feelings in the same tone.
we do not know yet why bee is afraid of Men and binds her breasts so as not to let them see she is no longer a child. she seems very streetwise and sensible. Bee is a Leader as she finds a way to get a Taxi out of the place for herself and others.
Why it took her 5 days to arrive at the house still remains a mystery
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Bow_Belle- Gay! I am so pleased that you've found us here. We need your clarification and appreciate your insight here. I admit to my ignorance but I just do not understand this:
Bee didn't have a plan to kill herself under the Liberals. This is because they have not won an election since 1916.
Would it have made a difference if the conservatives or others were in power? LB was a child and knew nothing of politics.
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I have some reading to catch up; both here in the discussion and in the book but I must say I love the book; I have finished it but will skim the first three chapters soon (today?). My visiting sister is leaving Saturday at which time I can devote more time.
The way the author introduced us to the characters was confusing at first as someone mentioned, but then authors use many devices to grab out attention. Was Little Bee telling her story to us, the reader? Or reminiscing or what? I must do some concentrating. I remember in the chapter the colors she described - a bag full of "lemon yellow: - her life was gray, the descriptions of the rooms.
Do detention centers and removal centers (as mentioned in the heading) have the same purpose? Did Little Bee come over hidden in a cargo ship (that will be uncovered as I re-read the book I'm sure, just a fact I have forgotten).
I live in the midwest and, other than reading about those states and countries,that are having border problems I know very little about immigrants, although I can imagine the problems, the horrors, for both and although my city did give refugeeto many Somalians, I don't know how they have assimilated or whether there has been concern. There is nothing in our city's paper to indicate either.
Who decides where these refugees should live? Does our government parcel them out to various cities? I know Little Bee had a destination, but the others?
As CRESCENTWITCH pointed out there are many thoughts of dying in the book; a difference, possibly - Little Bee is speaking for herself, but Andrew is portrayed by his wife. Or does he come into the book in later chapters? I just forget. I loved this book.
I did put a postit tab on the first page of the third chapter - "In your country, if you are not scared enough already, you can go to watch a horror film......for me and the girls from my village horror is a disease and we are sick with it."
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My text keeps jumping all over the place so I am continuing afresh.
We also yet do not know what happened on the beach or why Andrew Killed himself and why Sarah lost a finger.
The contrast between Charlie's upbringing and Bees is highlighted by the fact Charlie has two batman suits. Bee has so few possessions she judges how much her fellow inmates have by the time they have been incarcerated and able to get a few things together.
It could be said that Charlie is infanticised wheras Bee has been deprived of some of her childhood.
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with regard to Dafur. Many Africans have been living there for ages. Because of global warming there are problems with pasture for the animals, The idigenous people have turned on the Africans out of fear. They have behaved like monsters towards them shocking! The Africans have had hardly any help Pure Genocide!
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do you think that the author by getting Bee to decide the difference between suicide under the Conservatives or Labour is showing just how grown up she has become well beyond her years?
Also Charlie has a problem with Death but Bee has probably seen it from a young age!
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I think Little Bee is imagining the many ways she can kill herself in different circumstances in order to maintain some control of her life. She has control of so little and has seen and suffered so much. She is very intelligent and knows right away that the use of language determines how you are perceived; thus she learns the "Queen's English".
She treasured the bottle of cheap nail polish that was in the charity box. It made me stop and think--the next time I donate, I will include some "luxury" items. I had an English teacher who used to quote (can't remember where the quote originated): "If you have 2 loaves of bread; sell one, and buy an orchid for your soul". The nail polish was LB's orchid.
Sally
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If of thy mortal goods thou art bereft,
And from thy slender store two loaves alone to thee are left,
Sell one, and with the dole
Buy hyacinths to feed thy soul.
Moslih Eddin Saadi, Gulistan (Garden of Roses)
Interesting - I always thought this was by Omar Khayham
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Miss Ella- hello and welcome back at anytime to our discussion. Yes, LittleB is relating the story to us the reader as if reminisciing and pondering her plight.
How astute of you to pick up on the color theme, Ella.
Yes LB believed that the new color of her life way gray, two years in the gray centre and now she is an illegal. Gray is a color that has had no happiness in it, for her.
LB points out to us that she is a born-again citizen of the developing world and will prove that her life is gray. She left the center with one pair of gray socks & one pair of gray briefs.
When she telephoned for a cab the receiver was gray and dirty, frightening her.
The girls, while outside waiting for the taxi and kept their backs to the detention center because "this is what you do to a big gray monster who has kept you in his belly for 2 years, when he suddenly spits you out." Now that is profound writing as she swears when she walks away from the farm
"she will never spend another day trapped in the color gray."
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What do make of the "yellow" inferences?
ursamajor & Salan- that is a very appropriate poem for our Little Bee. Do you think that she did that when she walked away to find Sarah?
Sally- That is a excellent point about LB taking control of her surroundings. I hadn't considered that she was looking to control, only that she was possessed with great fear.
It's amazing what we do when we fear something. We should list the various ways she chooses to kill herself if "the-men-come."
I remember chuckling when she began to eat the meals that were brought to her so that when the time came she would be strong enough to kill herself.
"Which will make me stronger for the act of suicide? Carrots or the peas."
- in the time of Churchill she'd stand under bombs
- Victoria- she'd throw herself under a horse
that's my favorite one
- if with Queen Elizabeth II @ a garden party- she'd kill herself with a broken champagne glass
[/list]
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Gay- how about this?- ... and the funniest of all as she attends the garden party on the great lawn of Buckingham palace in London she might opt for a sharp lobster claw, or even a small piece of cucumber that she could suck down into her windpipe if "the-men-suddenly-came." ::)
That poor little honey. She read everything they gave her to read and really loved your Queen Gay.
I love this new "profile" statement below my post that I found. It made me think of Little Bee when I read it.
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There's no trace of a long post I mailed earlier, so I'm starting over - more briefly, though.
STEPH, yes, we are talking specificallyabout Nigeria, Little Bee's native country. For reference, please check the header with the added background information on on Nigeria, and on the British Detention Centres.
Ella, As we read on, we will get more deeply into immigration, legal and illegal, which is indeed one of the most pressing problems of our time. Here in New England we have large communities of legal Brazilian immigrants. They are industrious and a number of them run popular restaurants.
Yes, little Bee mentions a cargo ship on page 3 of chapter 3.
This is the day of Little Bee's release, which is unexpected. The exit door is in sight, a telephone and three other girls in front of her, trying to call out.
Little Bee has a keen intelligence and a fine sense of observation. Yes, De, can't you just see the girls in their mismatched outfits in garish colors, clutching a see-through bags with their prized possessions ? Isn't it heart-rending to see what wonders a little bottle of nil polish did for Little Bee's mental well-being ?
I've spent the morning poring over a NG map of the world, spread out on the dining room table, and concentrated on Africa. The African continent is gigantic compared with continental Europe, just across the narrow Strait of Gibraltar, a distance easily mastered by the masses fleeing hunger.
The map has been re-drawn several times since, most dramatically at the end of WW I and, gradually, as independence came. For many African states the transition has been far from smooth. We need only to think of the long-suffering Congo in its various mutations; Rwanda and the genocide of Hutus and Tutsis; Zimbabwe (the former Rhodesia); not least the Sudan, which is in danger of splitting into two as we speak. The attention of the world is f focused on that struggle, thanks to the good work of actor George Clooney and a new satellite in the sky (according to TIME mag).
But what can be done for regions which once had arable, fertile land but left desolate as huge dust bowls as a result of draughts ?
Hopes and expectations for Nigeria were high when oil was discovered there about the time of independence. The country is a major exporter, but the life of the ordinary Nigerian has not changed for the better. A military government was in charge for 13 years. Unrest is a continuum.
This then is the background for the story of Little Bee.
Now I'll close bur will be back later. I hope this time the post will go through !
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Thank goodness, the post got through.
I'd like to add something that was in my invisible first post but not in the one just ahead.
Gay, Little Bee describes her happy childhood in the village with fondness and longing. She talks of the simple pleasures, of swinging from a low tree in a rope-tied tire, being with her giirl friends and her big sister Nkiruka, of watching an old movie, time and again. Could there have been much contact with outsiders or interest in political developments ?
Little Bee has a natural awareness, a genuine intuitiveness that stand her in good stead and endears her to the reader.
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I'm a bit late checking in after a wonderful New Year's Eve, and some fun time spent with my grandchildren before my winter break came to an end as well as theirs, so I had some catching up to do. I read all your posts and the one thing no one has touched on yet that jumped out at me instantly was how sad and bittersweet it was for Yevette to provide a way for their release from the center. How random of a pick for those girls to be chosen. Yevette in wanting her own release, gave no thought of what the release would mean for the other girls. This release was not one that would allow them to enter into the society with an acceptance or capability to find a place to live or work. It broke my heart reading how they stood at the door with hesitation because once they left they had no place to go. In the center under the worst of conditions they knew what the next day would bring. Imagine how scared they had to be, yet who could ever want to remain in the center by choice? Yevette in a sense played Russian roulette with the lives of others for her own freedom, and ultimately cost the life of the girl in the "Dunlop Green Flash trainers."
Another troublesome part is Little Bee calling Andrew and he begging her not to come and yet she did anyways. I have such mixed feelings of her actions and yet I am suspecting Cleave will reveal much in the chapters to follow. Why did Sarah even let Little Bee remain with her throughout the funeral and have such trust in her to let her be near Charlie at such a vulnerable time in his life? She is ultimately a stranger to them is she not, even though they met on a beach and experienced something horrible a couple of years back.
I found myself laughing out loud at times and yet the sorrow and darkness of these chapters seem to envelope me. As someone stated earlier, I too found its better for me to read this during the daylight so it does not stay with me into my sleep hours for fear of nightmares. Like I posted to my Facebook friends, "This book is not for sissies." lol I have great compassion for Little Bee, yet I also am a bit upset with her for looking Andrew and Sarah up and landing on their doorstep. Was her phone call the last straw that caused Andrew to finally submit to his suicide? What do you all think about one person doing what they feel is best for themself, without thought of how it may effect others they involve? Will Sarah come to resent Little Bee for the death of Andrew?
This is a book of many questions and so highly emotional. I am certain we will leave no stone unturned in our discussion.
Ciao for now~
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Interesting points, Bellamarie, thank you.
We really just started getting into the character of Little Bee, we haven't said much about Sarah yet. So far, Little Bee looks a lot better, at least to me, than Sarah. Don't you as a day care provider think her parenting efforts left something to be desired ?
It was indeed Yevette who obtained the release of all four by sleeping with a guard o guards. She was thinking of her own freedom, of course, but I doubt that she had any idea what even she would do or where she'd go when released. She didn't know the name or location of the Center, or how to handle the phone. She did not realize how precarious her own situation was, much less be concerned for the others, IMHO.
Little Bee, the survivor, she tells us more than once. Unlike the three other girls, LB had a contact. She had met Andrew and Sarah two years earlier, she had found and saved Andrew's driver's license, :) his address and phone number. There was also a dictionary in her see-through bag. It was all she had.
Why should she NOT call Andrew ? What do you feel she should have done instead ?
Well, she did call. And Andrew blew up at her, he shouted and cursed.
On the day of the funeral Little Bee knocks on the door of the house in Kingston-upon-Thames. Sarah lets her in. And why not ?
We don't know yet what happened on the beach in Nigeria, and what the bond may be, but the very least I can say is that Sarah's was a humanitarian act.
Why should LB be a danger to Charlie ?
From what we are told by Sarah herself, she loved the child dearly but cherished her career at least as much. It is easy to see that Andrew, who worked from home, was with Charlie more than Sarah, or how much time he spent with the child. INMHO Sarah also did a very poor job in preparing the child for his father's permanent absence --- other than talking about heaven and where in its pastures Andrew might be at any given moment.
What a deeply upsetting, ghastly scene in the cemetery when the child, in his batman custom cum mask, somehow intuits that Andrew is in the casket and screams to have the lid opened. Let's not overlook the fact that Little Bee saves the day.
After the trip to Nigeria Andrew became increasingly depressed. Sarah was well aware, she tells us so herself. There's no indication that anything was done to address the problem or change the routine in any way to help Andrew cope better. What does that tell you ?
More tomorrow. It's only Monday :)
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Egads.....I just knew using my nook was going to cause me problems, I glanced at the header and saw read to page 85 and so I did. Now after reading the posts it appears my page 85 takes me beyond chapter 3. So....please forgive me if I mentioned anything beyond ch. 3 ahead of time. I am getting used to using this ereader and it's proving to be a bit of a challenge. I am determined not to fling it across the room or return it to the store and buy me a hardcover book instead. I just realized Sarah becomes the narrator in chapter 4 so I will refrain from mentioning anything more about her, Charlie, or the funeral until we get there. Again, just bare with me.
Ciao for now~
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Gay, Little Bee describes her happy childhood in the village with fondness and longing. She talks of the simple pleasures, of swinging from a low tree in a rope-tied tire, being with her giirl friends and her big sister Nkiruka, of watching an old movie, time and again. Could there have been much contact with outsiders or interest in political developments ?
straudetwo
I seem to have missed reading about Bee in her home environment. when I was 14 I can remember my history teacher bringing in a tabloid newspaper into the class dissing it and giving us a real lecture in politics. I don't really know why the author made the comment about the different political parties. I can imaging though that conversations do occur between inmates as to whether things are going to get better or worse depending on who has power!
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The funeral scene was horrible.. but when I think deeply, I realize that when the person we love most in the world dies, we all may stand at the grave and want to scream and hurl ourselves at them.This burial in the earth is so hard on the survivors..
Th e little boy is truly disturbed.. But the most disturbing thing so far.. The Suicide.. by the girl in the sneakers. I keep imagining the kindly farmer and wife who gave them a place to stay and food.. Can you imagine the trouble they may have been in with the authorities.. I keep thinking they will never ever try to help a refugee again.. And I could not blame them.
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I'm off to Tai Chi which I have never done before. When I return I will answer your posts. You are spot on about the funeral Steph and Bella.
Where is everybody? Did we frighten off Babi, Rosemary and Pedln? YOOOHOO .
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I hear you, Andy. I had to return LB to the library and am now #2 on the waiting list. So much of this book is flashback, and I don’t want to spill any beans.
Little Bee has a lot of street smarts, whether they be from the street, the jungle, or wherever. She knows how to be a survivor – how many 14-year-olds, with no money and only the clothes on their backs can get themselves across a body of water to another country? So, she’s made it thus far – to England, and now the next step is to get to her only contacts – Andrew and Sarah. I don’t think she even knows about Charlie.
The survivors know they need papers, identity, and if they don’t have them, they don’t want to bring attention to themselves. That was Yvette’s plan – no identity, no papers, just blend in with the crowd. She was realistic enough to know that she wasn’t going to get any papers no-how. And she didn’t want to be deported back to Jamaica. The girl with the sneakers – without a case-worker holding her hand – she just lost hope. Maybe she had a chance a legitimacy, and now it was gone.
So here is survivor Bee, outside the center’s gates. The taxi is long gone. No papers, nothing. 16 years old now, and all she sees is countryside – where is the city, specifically Kingston on Thames. We can look on Google earth and see that it is SW of London. But Little Bee, did she have a map -- no wonder it took her five days. I don’t fault her for going to them. She knows nothing about their lives, only that they are her only hope.
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Deb- I echo your sentiments about LB's inner stamina. Yikes at 16 years old, mind you.
You mentioned earlier that LB doesn't seem to feel sorry for herself, she just keeps plugging along.
Bella & Traude--
I loved the "Bob Marley" sway of Yvette's voice as she proves your statement of giving no thought of what the release would mean for the others.
"Maybe yu's right to be scared. Lil Bee, cos u a smart girl. Maybe me jus too dumb to be afraid. But me spend 18 month locked up in dat place an if ur tink me dumb enough to wait one second longer on account of your trembli an your quakin, yut better tink two times."
IMO.She wasn't dumb, she was wily.
Another troublesome part is Little Bee calling Andrew and him begging her not to come and yet she did anyways. I have such mixed feelings of her actions
Bellamarie-Do you feel that she had any other choice at 16 years old? Would she have hesitated after being warned NOT to come to the house if she other sanctuary?They were the only road to safety for her. And YES I do believe it was the last straw for the weak Andrew. Depression and despair knows no bounds. Do you think he saw suicide as his penitence?
Bella- I feel your pain with the ereader,as I am busy at work with my new Nook. I have learned that from hence forth it works better for us to note chapters for our ereaders instead of pages.
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BOWBELLE posted: " Also Charlie has a problem with Death but Bee has probably seen it from a young age!" I had not thought of that. Does seeing much of death make it any easier to accept? Well, I'm sure losing a loved one is very difficult (most of us know that and are dealing with it), but Charlie, a child, of course, doesn't understand. Age matters doesn't it?
Straude, of course, it was upsetting at the funeral when Charlie screamed about the casket, understandable from a child's point of view. But a child. And what a parent, a mother, to let this child wear this Batman outfit constantly. Poor parenting, but I think she spoke of a nanny. I must go look at the book?
I agree with those of you who said that LB was right to call Andrew's house; perhaps, "right" is not the correct word. She did the only thing she knew to do. The others were not so fortunate to have a number to call. Shall we speculate now on their future?
Glorious England! Why did LB feel it was all so "fresh and new and bright?" She undid the binding on her breasts - freedom. How could she feel that when she had no idea of her future, only her past?
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Oh Steph, I totally agree. In her preoccupation with herself, feelings of guilt - and other "distractions", Sarah had not found the words to prepare her son. The anguish of the child was heart-breaking - abut it could have been lessened had the mother been less self-complacent.
Yevette and LB complement each other (complementary as in making one whole out of two halves) - they "click". The other two follow automatically. In truth, it did not occur to me early on that the girls could have been released by mistake and were illegals. But the farmer's comments made it clear.
Whether or not to open one's door, even to a relative, can be a dilemma. My mother faced it years ago. The door bell rang. I was about to skip to the door but she stopped me, put her finger on her lips, and we tiptoed away. Later she told me she had seen the would-be visitor's face; he was the eldest son of her sister and the black sheep of the extended family. A handsome young man in his twenties, he traveled the country from one relative to the next and lived on their donations - only to lose everything at the gambling tables - until, that is, the family stopped feeding his habit.
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http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81429/section/2 - The USA ICE
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I know I said I was going to lurk at this discussion, but I really think this book would not be good for me to pursue. I'll catch up with you all in one of the next book discussions.
Nancy
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I have to come to the defense of Sarah, and the comments of her being a bad parent for allowing Charlie to wear the Batman outfit. I have a granddaughter who is 5 yrs old and last year she was completely obsessed with watching the Wizard of Oz. She wanted everything Dorothy. I searched the internet and found her the most adorable Dorothy costume and she and her cousin who had to have one too, wore them every day at my day care, and they had to watch the movie at least three times a day. We acted out the characters and they became the cutest little actresses you could ever imagine. (Emma her cousin was very shy and I was amazed how she came out wearing that costume and taking on the role of Dorothy)They could recite every word and song of the movie and book I bought for my sweet little Hayden. lolol I thought it was the most adorable thing I had ever seen. I video taped the two of them singing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" and their Mom & Dad were tickled pink. Needless to say, Dorothy is no longer their obsession this year and the ruby slippers are no where to be found. I have pictures of the two girls in their complete Dorothy outfits right down to me braiding their hair and the blue ribbons. So I can truly see why Sarah and Andrew would allow Charlie play out his favorite character Batman. My friend had a little guy who was so obsessed with Spiderman that everyone had to call him Peter Parker if they wanted him to respond. He too has outgrown his hero character, and now responds to Sal. lol
I personally could never judge another mother/wife's actions upon the death of a husband. I think Sarah describes it best, "My mind was set in that crystalline state that comes with lack of sleep." also she says, "Actually I didn't know how I felt. We don't have a grown-up language for grief. My life had fallen apart." We all react to death differently and so it would behoove me to criticize or expect actions from the person going through it. I think Cleave did a wonderful job at capturing the true emotions. Batman is Charlie's safe, fun place, why take that from him when he has lost his Daddy? When he jumped in the grave I thought my heart was jumping out of my body. How horribly sad, and I can only imagine Sarah being numb to not being able to react. When I lost my Mom and stood at her grave knowing I would never see her again, I too wanted to open that casket and beg her to please come back.
Thanks to all of you who helped me realize Little Bee had no other alternative than to contact Andrew. I was struggling with Yevette and Little Bee's actions resulting in the suicide of no name and Andrew. I was asking myself if it was the right thing for either of them to do without consideration of who they were also involving and how it would effect others. No name and Andrew lived through so much trauma, and it seems they both lost that last strand of hope. No name not knowing where her life would go after being released with no papers or caseworker and Andrew possibly revisiting the events of two years ago on the beach hearing from Little Bee was just too much for either of them. Both their minds were in a fragile state, and they were coping or not coping with life in their own way, then along comes someone who causes them to have to shift gears and forced to deal with the change in routine without their knowledge or consent. It was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back in their case. I empathize with all of their situations and actions.
Ciao for now~
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We all look at the book through different lenses. I am walking through this country of grief and so I see the story through that lens. Grief, loss, pain, isolation. Chaos. Control. What I have read and what I anticipate I will read of Little Bee’s story is horrific, no doubt, but I really don't see her as a victim. She is just a person. She is strong. She is smart. She is observant. She is completely alone in the world and she is a changed creature, neither Nigerian nor English. I am curious to hear what she will say next. She speaks truth as she sees it and that is worth listening to.
Little Bee works through the mechanics of suicide in any given situation and I think this gives her a sense of control. If the men come and she cannot escape, she can do something. She has seen the men come and it may happen again.
Charlie seems to be doing the same thing with his Batman suit. The suit gives him a sense of control in a world without control. Children cannot control their world. But in his suit, Charlie can kill the baddies.
Sarah is just a person too. For some reason, she seems similar to Little Bee. She isn't anything like Little Bee at all of course. Sarah is an adult. She is a successful editor of a magazine. She lives in the English suburbs.
Maybe it is only that sudden loss levels the playing field. They are both more human than they are anything else. Maybe it is that they are both creatures of words.
Sarah does not seem to have found her suicide plan or her Batman costume yet.
I think bellamarie is right. Cleave is doing an excellent job capturing the various emotions of his characters. I am appreciating his unflinching eye.
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I find myself truly wondering why Sarah reacts calmly to LB, but her husband gave up and comitted suicide. Was LB the reason. I would assume from the books cover squib. That something horrible happened the first time they met.
Whatever does LB expect from the people she has met once. I would guess we will learn this. I must check as to the next number of pages..
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Good morning, this book has truly stayed with me throughout my day and night and Steph I asked myself the same question, what did Little Bee expect of somewhat total strangers? Was it just simple humanitarian. We don't really know for certain how she had possession of Andrew's drivers license, other than they were all on the beach in Nigeria two years ago. Why did she hold on to it for so long? Little Bee is a survivor and her mind set for a 14 yr old and now a 16 yr old is far beyond her years. I suppose fixating on the Queen would advance you along with whatever horrific things happened on the beach and in the center. Why does she see herself and the Queen alike? What did she mean when she mentioned the Queen knows about the men coming? The more I think about the lines in this book, the more questions I find I have, and then those questions leave me with more questions. Ok, off to start my day and hopefully Little Bee will not crowd my mind today. I'm beginning to see her as a buzzing bee above my head......lolol I do see her as a victim of circumstance, but truly a survivor with many skills. Yes, suicide is Little Bee's constant plan of taking control of her own fate, should the men come. How sad is that?
Ciao for now~
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Good morning ~
I've been reading all of the posts, and your insights are excellent. The book is so sad that I have trouble participating right now.
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Gay- You asked how LB could feel "so fresh and new and bright" when she left the centre. I think you answered your own question with this:
she had no idea of her future, only her past?
With all of the horror she had faced thus far and nothing holding her back to forge ahead, she felt the freedom and joy of a new life- fresh and bright.
Aberlaine-- I am sorry that you don't feel comfortable with this story. Thank you for stopping to let us know you didn't desert us. :-[ We'll catch up in the next discussion.
Bellamarie- Early on LB tells us that she is only alive because she tried to learn the Queen's English; which was to say she needed t o leave her own dialect behind to survive.
"Learning the Queen's English is like scrubbing off the bright red varnish from your toenails after a dance"
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/littlebee/littlebeecvr.jpg) | January Book Club Online
"Little Bee"
by Chris Cleave
Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined.
In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion. |
Facts:
*Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960. Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens.
*Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world. Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high. There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse?
*The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called, to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense. |
Reading Schedule
January 2, Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9, Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16, Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31, Conclusions
Discussion Leaders: Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com ) and Andy (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
Mippy- Oh dear, it does get better as we follow LBee into her new life. We would love to have you stay with us and explore her new world.
Deems 2- Welcome to our discussion, Susan. I have missed you and know that with your sensitive heart you can contribute much to our discussion. Who better than you can feel Little Bee's desolation and lonliness?
I love your synopsis of our main characters, Susan. It is concise, articulate and compact. (Your words remind me of someone else we both love.)
Sarah does not seem to have found her suicide plan or her Batman costume yet.
I still can not wrap my head around Sarah and that statement is spot on.
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Thank you, BOW BELLE. That clears up that comment. Obviously there was nothing to be feared from the Liberal Democrats; they were too feeble!
Re. Charlie and his Batman suit, it is obviously very important to him. It gives him a sense of strength and safety, I believe. Given what we know of the atmosphere of their home over the past two years, I suspect the Batman suit is a protection Charlie truly needs just now.
(No,ALF, you didn't scare me off. I've just been under the weather the last two days.)
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This is my first chance to come on line. Sorry to be late.
Thank yo si much again for your posts.
Andy, yes. To breathe the fresh air of that spring morning, English air, no longer a captive, but free at last, have been overwhelming for LB after staying in the Center. At the last moment she stopped, as if incredulous, and Yevette gave her a little push forward.
Deems 2, I agree. LB derives a sense of security and power from being prepared and ready to kill herself first, if the men came back and wherever that might be. N, she does not consider herself a victim. But she is determined to get to Kingston-upon-Thames, come what may. And she does. She had no one else in the world. It was her only hope.
Bellamarie, I don't think LB was presumptuous when she compared herself to the Queen. I'll go back and check it out. There are more interesting details in Chapter 3 regarding "your" language, like different meanings for the same words, people's fascination with horror, which she cannot fathom.
More after supper. My grands are coming.
In haste,
Traude
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I work during the week so being able to be here with all of you is difficult. I am finishing the book, it is wonderful. I will not give anything away, I promise. See you all Fri, I am off, since I work 10 hr. days 4 days per week.
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wonderful Crescentwitch- we will be looking forward to your comments of Friday.
I used to love those 10 hour days on/off 3. Of course in Nursing they can NOT help but ask for more, even when your feet are screaming!! I don't miss that part of it.
Babi- are you alright? The last I read you were going to enjoy little ones and dogs for the New Year. What happened to you?
:D I knew I didn't scare you off, you're tough!
Traude- I didn't feel as if she was presumptuous either. We have to keep reminding ourselves time and again that she is a child.
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I find it sadly ironic that the group in 'Winterhaven, Brownsville, Texas' discussed a 16 year olds situation at our December book club group: the book 'The Blue Notebook'-I believe the country was India....it was a sad unbelievable circumstance written by a doctor who though the book was fiction saw many circumstances that he felt he had to write .....and therefore the book
-----now again in this book....and I must assume that there are many truths in the horror being written about
--what ugly truths there are about our world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yes, bookad, that is unfortunately true. We all live in our secure little world and shutter in disbelief when we read of these horrors.
The beauty of this story is that the author makes LittleBee strong, independent and hopeful. It makes one almost believe that there is a silver lining out there.
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Traude....I need to clarify, I did not intend to give anyone the impression I saw Little Bee presumptuous when she compared herself to the Queen. I was asking why did she choose the Queen and what did she mean when she says the Queen knows about the men coming. I get a little confused with the comparisons she makes with the Queen. I realize she has fixated herself on the Queen, my question is, why??? The Queen seems to be Little Bee's Batman.
Andy- Yes, Little Bee is indeed a child, but isn't it difficult to keep that in mind when the author has made her far beyond her years. I loved when Little Bee reflected back to the happy times of her childhood. I think Little Bee showed her true age at the end of the chapter when she brings her older sister into her mind, there taking her into the Thames on the river. I felt at that point and time Little Bee's reserve was low and needed the strenghth of her sister who obviously was always there for her. Cleave sure does an amazing job of capturing the emotions of each of these characters. It's all so sad and bittersweet......
bookad -What is even more ironic is the government trying to pretend it never happens.
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie, LB also makes reference to the Queen's English and compares it a bit unfavorably to her Nigerian English. And there was a difference. She gives examples, and I wish I had the book to point them out. Does anyone remember that passage -- it was rather light and happy.
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Bellamarie,
I just reread the first two chapters, Chapter 1 by LB and Chapter 2 by Sarah. Each is articulate in her own special way. Cleave's has done an outstanading job, we all seem to agree on that.
Ella, thank you for the link o the immigration system. In this country immigrant women are housed in separately, and that is true also for the prison system.
LB was put in with the adults. The trouble was there were men and women locked up in the same place. At night they kept the men in a different wing. They caged hem like wolves when the sun went down, but in the daytime the men walked among us and ate the same food we did. They still looked hungry ... (page 6)
The older girls would whisper to her, To survive you must look good or talk good ... So to avoid drawing attention to herself, she made herself undesirable, had her hair cut short by the Center's nurse, declined to wash, and wore shapeless clothes, e.g. a man's (!) Hawaiian shirt and heavy black boots with steel toe taps.
On her way out, LB took a last look at the security officer. He did not look up at her. I realized that I knew nothing about men apart from the fear. (page 18)
Sarah's narraive gives us data :
LB knocked on her door 5 days after Andrew's death, , 10 days after her release from the detention center after 2 years there, covering a distance of 5,000 miles.
Four pages into Chapter 2, Sarah says, I realized I would have to tell my son he whole story, someday. OIt ws 2 years before, in the summer of 2005 that Andrew began his slow, long slide into the depression that finally claimed him. It started on the day we first met Little Bee, on the beach in Nigeria. The only souvernir I have of that first meeting is an absence where my middle finger of my left hand used to be. The amputation is quite clean. In place of my finger is a stump, a phantom digit ... [/i] (pages 24-25)
Ella, Charlie was enrolled in his nursery's Early Bird Club
(top of page 30)
That's all for tonight. I have an appointment in the morning and will be on line in the early afternoon.
Buona notte.
Traude
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Hi all,
I have not deserted - just been down in Edinburgh house-hunting, and no internet there (I did try to access seniorslearn on my husband's i-phone and every time I put the www in it automatically reverted to a site for computer assistance that didn't even have a name like seniorslearn - don't know why. Husband said someone had intercepted the site - but it seems to work ok now I am back.)
In a mad rush today as son leaves this pm for Switzerland and I have to work from 2pm, also get groceries if we really are going to get more snow >:( - but will try to return here this evening. Not sure if you will really want to hear my comments as I find that I still can't really see this as a good book - good themes I know, but I find the writing irritating and unrealistic. More later (maybe!)
Rosemary
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Excuse me for interrupting. I haven't been following the discussion. I did read the book much earlier in 2010. I totally loved this book. The African girl's story is powerfully unique in scope. Chris Cleave's Little Bee is "my" story in some way. I could say so much about this novel. I did write a tiny review. I wanted Chris Cleave to know his story had impacted me in no small way. He wanted no spoilers. I understood.
Points that impacted me
1. Little Bee without papers
2.The finger
3. The suicide of the husband and the reason why
4. The end in every way possible impacted my heart.
5. The powerful love throughout the book
6. The need to be needed
7. The need to have love freely given
Thank you to Chris Cleave's Little Bee. The novel made my life more whole. The novel broke my heart. It's impossible to read without tears.
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Good morning all, Rosemary I await anxiously to hear your comments. I find myself struggling with some parts that leave me wondering about how realistic some of these parts are. I keep settling on this favorite phrase my friendship group always says when we all go to the movies and I question parts afterwards, my friend Rick started it by saying, "It's only a movie Marie." I laughed silly when he said it and now it seems to come out at least one time every time the six of us go to the movies. I used to be able to read fiction and not question it so much, but since I joined SeniorLearn and we delve so deeply into every book we discuss, I find I can't read lightly anymore. Or maybe I am just growing up and maturing with my reads and want and expect more from the story and author. Anyway......enough of that, lol
I have not read much ahead so I am certain much more is to be revealed and will satisfy my questions.
hats- Hello it is so good to see you once again, I would welcome your insight since you say Little Bee's story is much like yours. You bring out the power of love in the book, that's so interesting since I suppose early on I am not feeling it so much. Sarah and Andrew's relationship seems a bit distant to me, and not that they appear to be bad parents, but I do see the both of them as busy with their jobs and not much time for Charlie. While Little Bee's relationship seems endearing with her older sister I feel the author has broken that relationship from us by the separation of them. Imagine how her sister must have felt realizing Little Bee was released without warning or preparation to say good-bye. You have piqued my interest on your points that impacted you. It gives me hope for thiese characters. I agree, you could not possibly read this book without tears. I am going to go ahead and read the next couple of chapters since I need more information to help me with some of my bewilderment. I promise not to divulge.
Ciao for now~
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HATS!!! So good to hear from you! I've missed you.
MARIE, (may I call you that? I see your friends use that instead of Bella) I drive my daughters nuts criticizing actions/decisions in the TV shows. It's amazing how much derring-do would be cut if the protaqonists used a little common sense, but then that would lose the whole point of the show, wouldn't it? :)
On Little Bee, there is no mention of her sister being in the detention center. They were separated earlier; we don't yet know how/why?
A number of you posted about Yvette. The thing she said that made the biggest impression on me was, when Little Bee spoke of the past as ‘another lifetime’, Yevette replied: “Yu only be livin one life darlin. Don’t matter you don’t uh-preshie-ate part of it, cos it don’t stop bein part of yu.”
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Ithink from the LB and the foreshadowing, that something horrible happened to her sister.. and I think it was back in Africa..
I think like some others here that the author is writing Little Bee as quite a bit older than 14 and 16.. So I find it hard to think of her as a child. Sara is such a blank for me in these first few chapters. I must somehow tuck into the next group to see what is happening. I am also reading my FtF book, so it is somewhat confusing.. The Best thing I am reading is What I eat.. Was a Christmas present and I just love it.
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Hi Babi,
I've missed you too. Thank you.
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I don't have a hard time believing Little Bee is fourteen. Yes, she comes across as very mature. I believe this is because she has led a very hard life. Our children, American children, are given the freedom to become adults only at the proper time. Across the sea in Africa "children" carry guns. Children escape alone without an adult to America, the Home of the Free. You have to act very mature to always have running in your head and heart like Little Bee. The other three girls seem to respond to her maturity with their personal maturity.
Sorry, I don't have a book in front of me.
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Hats, it is so good to see you here. Thank you for listing the points that impacted you, and I do hope that at some time you wll share your review with us.
Our children, American children, are given the freedom to become adults only at the proper time. Across the sea in Africa "children" carry guns. Children escape alone without an adult to America, the Home of the Free.
Hats
A good point. These children do what they have to do. Their only option is to survive.
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Babi- Yes indeed you may call me Marie and so may everyone else for that matter. Thank you for pointing out that there was no mention of the older sister Nkiruka was in the detention center. I suppose I assumed that. Gosh I feel like I keep missing so much in these first three chapters.
Hats- Yes, Little Bee does come over so much older if you noticed she refers to herself as a woman. "Me, I was a woman under white florescent strip lights, in an underground room in an immigration detention center forty miles east of London...... The African girl they locked up in the immigration center, poor child, she never really escaped. In my soul she is still locked up in there, forever, under the florescent lights, curled up on the green linoleum floor with her knees tucked up under her chin. And this woman they released from the immigration detention center, she is a new breed of human. There is nothing natural about me. I was born-no, I was reborn-in captivity."
Now I am sensing from reading Steph's post that possibly her older sister is dead and she keeps her alive and draws from her for strength to help her survive. I could be way off base. Back to read some more. You ladies sure have my mind going a mile a minute.....lolol
Ciao for now~
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O h me, I started reading again and now have decided I will withdraw from the discussion.The violence is more than I can deal with and I am afraid, I will have nightmares as it is..
But my last shot is that Sarah is beyond stupid.. Not to even check in Africa of all places.. And then to wander off the hotel.. The whole premise is beyond belief. but the violence is not something I can deal with. Maybe next year.
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HATS, it's good to see you here, we have missed you. And I loved this book also, I had read it previously when a neighbor loaned it to me, but am skimming it again.
You are so right! A 14-year old girl that makes the decision to stow away on a ship - leave her country - all the past that she has ever known - is frightened out of her mind - that is no childish thing!
STEPH, so sorry you are withdrawing. I agree Sarah is beyond believable; to allow a child to make decisions as to what he will wear and not to answer when spoken to??? I am keeping within the limits of the first three chapters so perhaps more will be explained.
Every so often Cleave makes a statement that resonates with me as when Sarah is thinking of BBC News, the war in Iraq, and she observes that at first it was a huge shock and one watched the news constantly and then you take your eyes off it for extended periods of time.
Yes, we forget there is a war and our young men are dying overseas. We forget it for extended periods of time as the author states.
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HATS, what a pleasure it is to see you Welcome back!
I cannot tell you how much it means to see you here. I've often thought of the glory days in WREX
and wondered whether our cyber paths would ever cross again. And now they have, true to the old saw "Hill and dal won't get together, but people do."
I just came home from running errands; I made more than planned because another snowstorm is in the forecast, and traffic will be bogged down. But I'm tired now and will reflect on today's posts before I respond. Many thanks
Traude
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Hi Pedln, Bella and All,
It's good to "see" old and unforgettable friends again. I am going to have the book in hand again by Saturday. I need to have my mind refreshened. I remember so much happening on the beach. I don't remember feeling negatively impacted by the violence. I just wanted to know how the story would turn out. A couple with a little boy from a totally different world meet Little Bee. The serendipitous fact that they would meet again under different circumstances but really a follow up to the same circumstances. That a woman could become so brave, so strong, so full of sacrificial love that she would give part of herself, her finger, to save someone else. Her husband couldn't do it. This fact haunted him. He must have been fed the myth that men are always stronger than women. Not true. My mother had cancer. My sister, now gone, talked to the doctors, waited for mom to come out of surgery and looked at an open wound in my mother's chest. Then, she proved strong enough to look my mother in the eye without blinking to say, "It's not that bad. Everything is going to be alright." My dad loved my mom, but he couldn't go to that painful place with her.
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Traude,
What a happy surprise, I often think back too.
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Hello Ella,
Glad to hear from you. I will just send out one big hello to everybody here. There is no one I didn't miss. Now I won't interrupt the "magic" as Ginny would say. I don't want to interrupt the book discussion. You are all good friends.
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Hats ~ How great to see you posting here! Let me add my welcome to that of everyone else!
I won't drop out, yet, but this book is quite upsetting! Moreover, I agree some of the premises are peculiar. I'll keep reading the posts, and I'll join in whenever I can. I'm not sure this type of book is "what the doctor ordered" for me at this time.
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I zipped through the first two chapters of the book in a coffee break this morning (I have read it before).
My feelings about it are these: the chapters written by Little Bee are touching, but for me they just don't sound right. I find it hard to believe that a child/woman who has been through so much has time to look up at the ceiling and wonder what is written there. Nothing is written there, and Cleave, IMO, is just using this bit to put in something that he had probably already written and thought sounded poetic - he does it again with the bit about the girl's eyes looking like boiled sweets that have been sucked - to me that just screams "I have been on a creative writing course and I am going to get this in somehow". Little Bee is a sensible, down to earth sort of person, then she comes out with twaddle every so often just to accommodate Cleave's "literary" flourishes. I feel that he does this too much. The publisher's bit at the front of the book reads to me like pretentious nonsense, but maybe that is just my over-exercised British cynicism :)
My greatest objection to the book is the plot, and I can't go on about that without giving things away, but even at this stage I find Sarah unconvincing, and Charlie even more so. My own father died suddenly when I was eight years old, and even at that age - ie 4 years older than Charlie - I can clearly remember that I wasn't really that upset. i know that sounds terrible, but I am trying to be honest, and my main feeling was that I didn't want my mother to be upset, and I wanted life to go on as normal - I especially didn't want to be singled out or pitied at school. I find it hard to believe in Charlie's reactions - I feel he behaves more like a teenager, with their very raw emotions and sensitivities.
I don't want to sound as if I am belittling the issues raised here - terrible things go on in Nigeria and in the UK, and it is essential that these are brought to the attention of the general public. I do think that the scenes inside the detention centre are good, and I agree wholeheartedly that the portrait of the Jamaican girl is brilliant - her speech is spot on and her character is very well drawn - you do feel that you know her, whereas even at the end of the book i still found Sarah very "cardboard" and Charlie plain ridiculous (and I have had a 4 year old boy who was obsessed with Power Rangers). The scene in which the girls are trying to call a taxi is very convincing - the reaction of the first taxi company - "you people are scum" is, I am afraid, all too typical of a vast swathe of the Great British public. I mentioned earlier that we have a large and growing Polish population here - as a result many of the supermarkets have started having Polish food sections - a woman I know told me she was "fed up " with this - "why do we want their food here?" - and again, I'm afraid this sums up the attitude of many uneducated people in this country (in fact I understand that most of the Poles who have come here are much better educated than most of us). So Cleave has got that bit right.
Will try to catch up with the third chapter tonight - my library copy doesn't seem to have the same page numbers as yours, so I will just go by the chapter numbers.
Apologies for sounding negative!
Rosemary
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Rosemarykaye- Thank you for sharing your feelings, I too found myself in a struggle with some inconsistencies with Little Bee's character. For me I feel as my friends would say, "It's just a fictional book." I feel we have to allow the author the right to excercize his creative talents, and he truly is with Little Bee's character. I can't understand why she is fixated on the Queen. I haven't read far enough into the book to feel harsh or negative, but I can appreciate your feelings. I'm finding it a bit hard to understand why so many have a problem with Charlie. Why is he unbelievable? Sarah, yes I can agree with you that she has come over as a bit unfeeling, but then I was giving consideration to the fact she has gone through something horrific on the beach and lost her husband unexpectedly. My day proved to be very taxing with the day care children, so I was not able to read any further. I hope to find a few quiet hours tonight before I doze off in my snuggly chair which I seem to be doing more often these cold wintry nights.
Ciao for now~
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RoseMary-- There you are. Did you have to hunker down with additional snow where you are?
I think that we all agree there are many inconsistencies in these first 3 chapters but the story will begin to unfold as we slowly progress to our next reading on Sunday. However, I do agree with your evaluation of Sarah but as Bella has done I too have ignored her attitude based on the fact that she not only finds her self a recent widow but she functions best as a "corporate" involved female. I'm sure we will see her warm up a bit.
Mippy & Steph-I am sorry that these chapters have disquieted you both. As disconcerting as these things are, do not be troubled, Little Bee will survive in spite of her burdens.
Hats- Good gracious where have you been? It is so good to see you back posting on our boards once again. You are not interrupting, not in the least!
Please feel free to state whatever you would like to say.
The African girl's story is powerfully unique in scope. Chris Cleave's Little Bee is "my" story in some way.
In what way is LBee your story? Are you comfortable enough to share that with us? It is good that you will be able to get your book back this weekend so that you can read chapters four and five with us. I know how difficult it is not to give any "spoilers" when you don't have the book to refer to in hand. You and Pedln have stated a veritable position in regards to our teenagers here.
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Rosemary, no apologies needed! In our discussions, we have always expressed our thoughts, impressions and opinions freely but amicably and never looked for consensus. And we make sure to listen to each other - which is not always easy in this noisy world of words.
And listening to a different interpretation or perspective can be enriching.
In fact, it is my personal opinion that not liking a given book, or a character, does not necessarily preclude a productive discussion, quite the opposite can be true, and I have experienced just that, more than once.
The page numbers are not the same, of course, because they are in the American edition of the book, which was given a new title and contains no Anglicisms (colour; honour; globalisation).
I believe the urgent admonition to readers to keep "mum" about the developments is unusual and wonder whether you had the same "injunction" in England when "The Other Hand" came out in 2008. Does your book cover mention it?
As for the violence. Sad to say, we are exposed to violence and brutality every single day wherever we live - stabbings; shootings; babies shaken to death by a parent; a very recent school shooting; a 10-year old in rural Ohio, who kept a rack of loaded guns in his room, shooting his mother to death because he didn't want to carry in firewood. What kind of society are we becoming ?
I too have expressed reservations about Sarah earlier, but I'm willing to read on, slowly, until at least part of the story is told, what exactly happened on the beach.
The batman connection seemed odd to me, a little dated. It may have been necessary for the plot. Yet so far I believe that LB's journey is the plot.
I still believe what I said in the very beginning, that this is a story for our time and of our times. Even though are bound to be countless similar ones, it has never been told like this before.
Is it realistic ? Marie asked.
I'm not sure about the word. For example, are reality shows realistic ? I couldn't answer that because I've never watched one.
So is it possible? Absolutely. The growing numbers of asylum seekers from Africa or Sri Lanka speak for themselves. And they are not all men.
LB arrived in England alone. Nkirura was not with her.
Charlie was not along on the trip to Nigeria in 200.
Sarah had received a promotional offer at the magazine and persuaded Andrew to take the trip, for it might salvage the faltering marriage. That is a tenuous strand in the plot. As a columnist at the Times Andrew would have had knowledge about the dangers in the country.
HATS, I feel very much like you about the book and LB. I like the compilation you made. A good idea. Will try to emulate, if you don't mind, with Chapter 3.
More tomorrow.
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As I checked my post for typos, I saw Andy's and Marie's post. :) :)
I need an earlier night than I had yesterday and will be here after a morning appointment.
So long
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Thanks, Andy! I plan to pick up the book again this weekend... I do not give up easily! :)
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I read the complete book just before we began, and although I have checked out another copy I have not been able to make myself look at it again. For one thing, it is difficult to comment on the early chapters when you know what is in the subsequent chapters. I found myself profoundly sympathetic toward Little Bee although I found her character rather contrived. I had no sympathy at all for Sarah. Yes, she had been widowed but she was carrying on an extramarital affair. Charlie just gave me a pain.
Ii know such evil as Little Bee experienced exists in the world but I don't want to dwell on it. I decided a long time ago not to obsess over things beyond my control.
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HATS is right. Little Bee has learned to be wary, careful of all she says and does. The average 16-yr old would seem very naive and childish to her. It takes some adjustment to see her coping with adults on an equal basis, but it is probably key to her survival.
ALF, ordinarily I would agree with you about Sarah's handling of Charlie,
but in his case I think there is more involved. I believe the costume gives
him a sense of security and power that he badly needs. We all know how
sensitive a child can be about what is going on around him, even if he doesn't understand it. If Charlies can find a sense of safety and security, I believe the batman costume and 'closed ears' will disappear.
You may be right, ROSEMARY, that Cleave occasionally uses Little Bee to
"accommodate Cleave's 'literary' flourishes". I've come across one or two that had me lifting an eyebrow. But Little Bee is more than 'sensible', IMO. She is someone who has grown up the hard way. Moreover, she was smart enough to use her time in detention to prepare herself for survival in England. We simply can't expect her to fit into the usual '16-yr. old' mold.
In defense of Cleave, tho', some of his flourishes are quite appealing.
“…warm sunshine dripping through the holes between the clouds, like the sky was a broken blue bowl and a child was trying to keep honey in it.”
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Re: Charlie and the Batman costume
I have to defend Sarah here. Who was it who said something like, "You pick your battles." We've all been there. My mother bugged me about my hair until after I was married. As far as I was concerned, my kids could do whatever they wanted with their hair. You don't want to fight with your kids over everything. Charlie would become more than just upset when he couldn't be Batman. And now he has to deal with his father -- who is in heaven -- WHERE? And why can't he come back. I don't blame Sarah one bit for letting him be the power man he wants to be.
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I love it when people disagree. Yes! A fight! Woohoo! Fight on Rosemary.
I am neutral about Sarah. I really don't know her well enough yet to form any kind of opinion about her or her actions. Perhaps this is a failing of Cleave's. Perhaps not. I have only seen her on the day of the funeral of her husband. A day that she is likely to be outside of herself.
I don't have the issues that you have with Charlie. I think that most people are strange (myself included). And I think that four year olds can be from different planets entirely. A friend of mine has three children. One is more than a handful - like my friend. The second is a different kind of handful - much like her husband. And the third is this imp that came from nowhere. If she wasn't the twin of the second child, they would think that she had just dropped in from outer-space.
As for Little Bee, I don't know. Maybe Cleave is overwriting at times. But it seems to me that here you have a child-person who has nothing. She has no family and no country and no things. She becomes an adult in the detention center where you scramble to get clothes when they become available. I have no sense that she has any friends in the detention center. She spends the time learning English and avoiding being noticed. But she is still a child and she is still alive. So she plays inside her mind. She doesn't think that something is written on the ceiling, but why not look. I do this kind of thing all the time. I look at what you are looking at just to see what you are seeing. (That takes me back to "most people are strange, myself in particular".) The thing that struck me as odd about that line of women at the phone was how calm everyone appeared to be.
I want a snuggly chair, Bellamarie.
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Thanks for letting me in.
I have some things that I would like to comment.
First the authors languish handling. I mean the alteration between the foreign, uneducated, peasant girls way of talking and understanding or misunderstanding. Just because she is confronted with an absolutely unknowing and even terrifying world. Everything is here written in a simplified English (brilliant). Easy to understand for an foreigner!
When it comes to Sarah it's written in a sort of matter of fact way. Filled with modern expressions and a vocabulary used by the upper middle class. So sophisticated that it makes one understand the gap between two different worlds.
This was the first thing that hit me.
And I am not surprised that Little Bee turned to Andrew and Sarah.
• What else could she do???
• She is a stranger in a strange, hostile country!
• She is an alone teenager never been outside her own village!
Andrew and Sarah are the only people outside this small world of hers, whom have ever showed some kind of kindness!
But I do love her and I sympathize with Sarah's attempt to do something out of the glossy magazine world.
Till next time,
olle
The Spell Check wants to change Olle to Ollie (like Oliver Hardy). Both nick names come from the Latin word Oliver/Olaus. Once in London i was adressed Laurence Olivier for Lars-Olof. It could be worse! Ollie is OK!
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Pedln- I hear you about "picking your battles" and agree wholeheartedly. As mothers, we've all done that, haven't we? However, it appears to me that Sarah is camouflaging her responsibilities in the same way that Charlie is hiding in his power suit.
Babi feels this gives him safety and security, as well. Although Sarah is conscientious, dutiful and effective as the editor of her magazine I feel that she has an inherent responsibility to help Charlie through this unstable time. She allows the "batman suit" to wrap around Charlie and give him the comfort and security he needs, rather than enveloping him in maternal concern.
Olle- (welcome back)- makes a valid point. Sarah is upper class, sophisticated and matter of fact. Perhaps that is just her manner and approach to life. God knows, we all have a different approach, as Deemstwo has stated.
URSA- "I decided a long time ago not to obsess over things beyond my control."
Hang in there, Little Bee will hold our hands as we see her through this adventure. Mippy's in the wings as well.
I shall return after dinner with a thought. Traude will be in shortly.
Olle- It is a pleasure to have Sir Laurence with us today. :o
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Signing in late. Waiting at the doctor's was longer than usual, but I had our book with me.
Since coming home I read all the recent posts.
First a second special Hello to Olle. Thanks again for joining our discussion. And, incidentally, my computer and the eager-beaver spell checker had no problems with your name at all :) :)
Bellamarie, with your say-so, I'd like to continue calling you by that name because IMHO it personifies you and your Italian heritage so much better than 'Bella' or 'Marie'. Do I hope for an okay.
I'm grateful that Andy is here with us. Her personality and no-nonsense-approach is just what we need in an emotion-laden book like this one.
Ursamajor, I could not agree more with your # 192, and I also understand Aberlaine, Mippy and Steph.
Deems 2, neutral is exactly what I try to be, especially in the beginning of any discussion. It's MHO that one shouldn't praise nor condemn too. too soon. And yes, some parts of the book seem to be overwritten --- an indication, perhaps, of the author's ardent passion, conviction and desire to help.
More tomorrow
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Deemstwo-says:
The thing that struck me as odd about that line of women at the phone was how calm everyone appeared to be.
Susan, I'm not sure that they were calm as much as detached.
The Jamaican woman had guts and guile and had to present herself with assurance and false bravado. None of the others could assist her in talking their way out of there. The one pretty girl in the yellow sari dress spoke no English so she couldn't help and was just around for the ride "out of dodge."
The third girl had all of her story written down in red ink, but she was not a talker. Therefore, it ultimately fell on LBee to relate the information necessary to hail the cab.
Everyone is fighting the baddies, aren't they? LBee, the ladies that left the detention centre with her, Andrew and Charlie. It seems as if Sarah is the only one who isn't bereft and frightened.
There are so many sentences I would love to repeat i.e. "For me and the girls from my village, horror is a disease and we are sick with it."
A disease- few words but so profound and repulsive, is it not?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/littlebee/littlebeecvr.jpg) | January Book Club Online
"Little Bee"
by Chris Cleave
Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined.
In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion. |
Facts:
*Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960. Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens.
*Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world. Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high. There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse?
*The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called, to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense. |
Reading Schedule
January 2, Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9, Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16, Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31, Conclusions
Discussion Leaders: Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com ) and Andy (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
I'm sorry. I meant odd as in curious. We have four women leaving the detention center after having been there for some two years more or less. And yet everyone is waiting quietly in line. I found that curious. Not untrue, just curious.
It is a poignant scene to me because they must have been crazy to get out. (I get stir crazy if I stay inside for a day.) But they had been inside long enough to know better than to call attention to themselves. No one is there to help them leave. They have nowhere to go. They do not know where they are. They have nothing to say to the cab company. And gradually, we the readers begin to understand this. It is probably the slowest escape scene I have ever witnessed. And the longer it takes, the more intense it becomes. In a very calm way. Until finally, Little Bee has to be pushed across the threshold.
I don't really think they were actually calm. I think that they appeared to be calm. Because they had to. Because they could not speak. Because they were numb. One of these women will kill herself within 24 hours.
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Alf - just a small point. Sarah is not upper class, she is upper middle class - they are quite different. Having lived amongst the upper class estate owners of Deeside for some years, I am sure that an upper class Sarah would have dealt with things in a different way, with no introspection at all - the ones I knew were always immensely confident and never doubted their own actions or interpretation of things for one second.
Also, they would never have gone on holiday to Nigeria! They would have villas in Tuscany or France, with trips to the Carribean thrown in every so often. (When Anna was small she was at the local country primary school with some of the children of these families - one of them was taken out of school during term time for a family trip, and was told to make a diary of the trip as her homework. It duly appeared, complete with the First Class menu from Concorde :).)
Sorry, not meaning to be pedantic,
Rosemary
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Hi, Olle; glad to meet you. You bring out a good point about the
difference in writing styles between Little Bee and Sarah pointing
up the gap between the two worlds. I hadn't thought of it that way
but you are quite right; it does.
I agree, ALF, it would be nice if Sarah could resolve Charlie's
fears by 'enveloping him in maternal concern'. But Sarah, much as
she loves Charlie, is also part of the strain and tension that has
been surrounding the child for the past two years. He loves her, but
I don't think he can entirely relax his guard with her. Maybe I'm
making too much of it; I hope the latter part of the book will make
it clearer.
Little Bee says ‘A story is a powerful thing in my country.” I
think that must be true of all cultures where word of mouth is the primary means of preserving a history and culture. I found this bit
about the stories of Nigeria.
. Oral literature ranges from the proverbs and dilemma tales of the common people to elaborate stories memorized and performed by professional praise-singers attached to royal courts. (The Nigerian Embassy, Moscow)
When Little Bee tells Sarah all that has happened to her, she is carrying
on the story-telling tradition of her country.
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I got so involved with the book, I finished it yesterday. It just propelled me thru....and I needed to know......further!
When I read I'm afraid unless very poorly written, I just go with the flow and go with what is being written feeling the story, becoming involved, losing myself in the pages
I remember hearing that Inuit people have many different words for 'snow' or 'ice' and their culture sees much more than a mere --snowflake--so would "Little Bee" and her descriptions which are so poetical be a result of their culture and story telling ....but I love the way she puts things into words giving a picture of i.e. the sky, a much richer impression ...is it just indigenous peoples who are able to present their speech to give such richness!!! I'm envious.
Deb
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Hi
I'm a week late (and a penny short?) in coming in to the discussion. We returned from cold rainy Long Beach and San Diego CA. visiting son and family, both of us very ill. My husband with Bronchitis and asthma and I with pneumonia.So our only focus the last week was visiting the Dr., getting anti-biotic shots, taking anti-biotics by mouth and oodles of cough syrup, cough drops and other delights.
Luckily I read the book before the trip. I enjoyed it very much.It held me from start to finish.
Today I read all the posts.I must say as a Child Therapist that in my opinion Sara is what is known as a "Good enough" parent". i.e. a parent that gives their child enough to encourage the healthy growth and development of their personality without too much interference. At the same time she is allowing the child to grow she is providing enough of a safety net for the child to know that he is loved and appreciated. A secure and independent personality will follow.
Andrew's death is the touchstone around which our characters circle in the first chapters. Reactions of children to death of a parent are as variable as the number of those who parents die. One reaction does not fit all. I think the author shows the correct reaction for Charlie. Like Batman, real but not really real. He exists but not in our world. Using the allegory ofBatman was an inspired choice by the author brought about by observing his own child live that fantasy with a living parent and imagining how the child would react if he the father\author died.
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Jude- I so agree with you on your statement,"Reactions of children to death of a parent are as variable as the number of those who parents die. One reaction does not fit all." I just watched a movie tonight called The Boys Are Back with Clive Owen, (he sure is easy on the eyes) ooops back to the topic, anyway...it was about him losing his wife suddenly to cancer and they shared a young son about five yrs old. It made me think of Charlie and how he is preoccupied with his Batman, the boy in the movie had a toy and as the father tried talking to him about his mother dying he just kept playing with his toy. The grandmother started to tell him to stop and the father said, Don't let him be, he finds comfort in his toy and he has just lost his mother." So as I said before and I think we almost all agree....Batman is Charlie's security blanket so to speak.
Now for Sarah, I now understand her aloofness to the death of her husband. How on earth did I miss the fact she has been carrying on an affair behind Andrew's back. I'm beginnig to think my Nook is not as good as a real book!!! I have to blame it on using the Nook, I could not possibly be me dozing off while reading. LOL
Andy~I like how you mention everyone seems to be battling the baddies.
Rosemary~ I agree the elite would not choose Nigeria as a vacation spot when they can come home and name drop about Tuscany or Venice etc. Oh how I would like to know what it would be like to be amongst the elite...lolol Nah...I'll be happy with Sandusky Ohio's Great Wolf Lodge with the grnkids. Italy is over rated...coming from a decedant of Italy, imagine that. All joking aside, I would love to see my heritage homeland. And yes, bellamarie is perfectly okay to call me, my Italian father was determined I have an Italian name so my first name is Annabella and middle name is Marie so it was easy to use bellamarie for my screen name. I love knowing my Daddy chose my name since he was killed when I was barely two years old and I have no memory of him. Oh how my Mom and siblings kept him alive as though I knew him myself growing up. Something I'm not so sure Sarah will be doing for poor Charlie.
Deems~ A catfight.....oh how I love a jokester!!!!! We are a group of many opinions thats what I love about SeniorLearn, we can respectfully disagree, or agree to disagree whichever.
Okay its very late for me so off to bed I go, will be back as soon as I finish assigned chapters.
Ciao for now~
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You are all ways ahead of me, but I'll try to keep up with you.
I have had the same reflection about LilBees too adult thinking. It s a bit annoying but understandable if the author wants to made us look behind the circumstances that has led us to the actual situation.
I say us. Because I think Mr. Cleaver wants to say that we are all accessory in what's happening. Even if we are silent, live our lives and minding our own business.
That insight has come to Sarah and although she knows that she can't do anything about the situation in Nigeria, she can help one single person. That is a great step for her and she also realize that her position as an editor have a small chance to make other women look at "the real world". They/she don't look on Nigeria as a country in civil war, just as a sandy, sunny beach where you can relax.
Lawrence is a typical civil servant, who follows the regulations. He is doing his job and that is. A conflict between compassion and moral courage.
I have no aspects on her infidelity. Her marriage was over and Andrew had given up everything.
In Gothenburgs forbidden "Red district" you can find many Nigerian girls. Victims of trafficking.
In Sweden it is forbidden to by sex - not not sell it!
Strange country.
Olle
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Are we ready to take on the next three chapters?
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It's kind of you to excuse Sarah, OLLE. As you say, "Her marriage was over and Andrew had given up everything." Still, that affair began
before the incident in Nigeria. I'm not so generous in my opinion of her
infidelity.
On story-telling, if you pan down on this link, you will find a Nigerian story of a tortoise and a hare, but quite a different one from ours. It includes elements of another well-known children’s tale. I suspect the origins of “Uncle Remus" were Nigerian. http://www.uni.edu/gai/Nigeria/Lessons/Storytelling.html
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Babi- thank you for that link to the Nigerian story created as a way of making sense of natural events in the world. I always felt that story telling was a wonderful art and a means to teach values and moral lessons. Is it a dying art today?
OLLe- I can understand why some of these girls end up involved in the "sex trafficking rings." They have no money, no place to live and no means to support themselves. Can you explain to me who or what Gothenburgs is?
In Gothenburgs forbidden "Red district" you can find many Nigerian girls. Victims of trafficking.
Ella- Yes, let us move into chapters 4 and 5, where things are made a bit clearer with Sarah and Little Bee's narrative, as they account for their chance meeting on the beach in Nigeria.
These two chapters are filled with unbridled greed (oil) and corruption proving them difficult to read and comprehend without revulsion at the horrors humans inflict upon their fellow man.
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In memory of your daddy, Bella- ;D- I like that name best- so Bella you will always be (to me.)
Losing your dad when you were so young is heart breaking.
Oh how my Mom and siblings kept him alive as though I knew him myself growing up. Something I'm not so sure Sarah will be doing for poor Charlie.
No, but our Little Bee is a real story teller. Like your family she acknowledges and recounts stories of Nkiruka any chance that she gets, whether silently or in the revelation of what happened to them before and after their encounter on the beach.
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Sarah's defenses are at last broken down as she numbly and calmly reevaluates her life with and without Andrew. Tearless, she "searches" for a physical sign of Andrew's death and wonders how will she cope? She rubs violently at her eyes to prove to the mourners she had cared for Andrew.
Andrew was "absolutely unbearable sometimes but he was always so sensible."
That's a hell of a way to remember your husband isn't it? yikes
Amen to Cleave's statement: We don't have a grown up language for grief.
How painfully well most of us have all learned that fact.
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Okay, I read the next two chapters and had nightmares! I'll not read this book at night again. Little Bee's story was very painful to me. Olle, I have no problem with Little Bee's adult thinking. She was forced to grow up rapidly on that beach in order to survive and she is a survivalist! I love her and her story telling and the ways she imagines she would tell things to people back in her village. I am still undecided about Sarah, but admire the fact that she accepts responsibility for taking LB in. That couldn't have been an easy choice.
I don't see what the big deal about Charlie dressing in his power suit is. He is just a child and his suit gives him "power", and don't we all need something in our lives to give us power?? For a couple of years (about the same age, Charlie is), my grandson wanted to wear his Spiderman suit everywhere. I think he went through a couple of sizes before he out-grew the need. If you recall, he was wearing this suit even before his father killed himself.
I have a question. How did Little Bee learn to read English? I got the impression that her village was very primitive and there was no mention of school or teachers. Yet, when she was stowed away on the boat to England, the captain gave her a book to read and she read it. So....??
I think I will probably go on and read ahead. I find that by trying to follow the schedule; the book is losing momentum for me.
Sally
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Hello, everyone!
Today marks the end of our first week we've s;pent together in this discussion. Many thanks to all who joined us. Links are always valuable in providing highlights and additional information. Thank you, Babi.
I've been offline all day, concerned about my SIL and waiting for word. Forgive me for being late catching up.
First to Ella's, # 200. Yes, as per the schedule, let's go on to Chapters 4 an 5, and pick up anything hat's unresolved and undiscussed in Chapter 3 or needs attention.
Deems 2, Oh yes, I do agree that the girls, waiting for the cab, were not calm and collected, merely appeared to be so. According to their tradition, they had their backs turned to the approaching vehicle and spoke in whispers -- and those were obviously LB and Yevette,
Babi and Olle, my chosen field is foreign languages and linguistics. and I do agree that there's a discernible distinction in the speech of LB on one hand, and Sarah on the other. It is clear in sentences like "The girls in my village, they would ..." , where the personal pronoun 'they' is really unnecessary. (I'll search for a quote.)
Jumping ahead to a later post, Nigeria's official language is English. There are more than 250 ethnic tribes in the country, all with their own dialects, and a handful of those are "recognized" alongside English. One of those is [b]Ibo[/b] or Igbo, and that was LB's dialect.No doubt, she had a special ability, which empowered her (remember how the the taxi company man said on the phone "You don't sound like the others ...")/ At that time she had no "handle"on specific terms or idiomatic phrases, andhow could she.
Deb, brava for finishing the book. That is my own habit - as long as we stay within limits set by a DL. Thea second paragraph of your post is eminently worth quoting, and I wish I could but, alas, my technical skills are limited ;D I'll try later.
Jude, good to see you and welcome. I'm glad you felt well enough to post and hope you and your husband will fully recover soon. Of course you're right about Charlie. As a child educator you have so much more insight than the rest of us.
Olle, I'm so glad you are with us. None of us really are quite sure about Sarah at this point. But there are other clues to pick up from the rest of Chapter 3 which may throw more light on important things.
May I say that I have a personal connection with Sweden. I taught myself to read and my first source was my father's newspaper, which carried a daily serial about a Sedish detective. I remember that -gatan was the equivalent of street. Many years later I took my 5- year-old son back to Europe for an extended visit with TWA and a leg with SAS. Before going south, we first visited friends in England, then Denmark, then got ourselves to Malmö - it was charming but too short. Of course, that was long before the magnificent Öresund bridge that unites Denmark and Sweden was built.
Bellamarie, like you, I firmly believe that family traditions and heritage is worth being cherished and should be. After all, there is a continuum.
Just noticed, I haven't got to Sally's post. Sorry. Will do that tomorrow,.
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SALLY, as Traude says, English was an official language in Nigeria, tho' I
doubt the villagers spoke it very well. It was while in detention that Little Bee
learned to speak it so well. One of the older 'girls' had told her that to make it in
England she either had to speak well or look good. With her terrible memories of what
happened to girls who looked good, she chose to learn English perfectly.
As was noted somewhere, Nigeria and the British govt. both deny any 'oil war' took
place. I went looking for news reports on the subject and the official story is that
disaffected Nigerians had attacked oil installations. Frankly, I don't know what to
believe.
One last note from the first three chapters. After LB has reached London she writes of
all it’s crowds and how she reacted. “…when you have lost everyone, you never lose the habit of looking…… “Every face I see I am looking for them in it.” This is so real.
My mother died when I was 13. She had been in the hospital for a while before she died and my brother and I were not allowed to see her. (She had polio.) Dad decided we could not see her at the funeral; he wanted us to remember her as she had been. So for years afterward, even tho’ I understood she was dead, I would find myself looking for her in crowds. Strange,
isn't it?
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Babi, I agree. There’s a lot out there on abuses, but it is hard to know who to believe. Here are a few links.
Drill and Kill (http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/oil-and-gas/news-drill-and-kill-oil-crimes-nigeria)
The Nigerian government has turned a blind eye to the people's suffering, but instead has been ready, willing and able to aid western oil companies by brutally repressing those who would dare stand up for their basic human rights
Oil bandits (http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9242000/9242871.stm)
Blood and Oil (http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2010/mar/30/blood-and-oil-panorama-passports-to-kill)
Rosemary, have you seen this – a BBC2 film with johdi May and Naomie Harris – political thriller set in the Niger Delta of Nigeria.
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Hi pedln,
No I haven't seen it. I did talk to my husband about the book (he hasn't read it). he worked in the oil industry for 20 years (he's now moved into renewable energy), and his view is that Nigerian society is extremely violent. It is certainly well known to be one of the worst postings, and hardly any families go - the men go by themselves if they have to. I also know someone who is soon to finish a posting there - his wife went with him as their children are grown up and away. She told me that no-one ever took a ground floor apartment, as they were likely to be "ramroaded" by trucks whose occupants would then ransack the house. Westerners have to have a lot of security there.
Whether the violence stems from the British or the Nigerians is hard for me to say - but oil has been found in other places without such atrocities being carried out. Even here in Scotland there is quite a lot of resentment about the fact that all the oil is in the North Sea, but all the revenue goes to Westminster - Aberdeen Council receives less funding from central government than any other Scottish city - this has not led to physical violence, but then the oil is under the sea, not under people's villages, and although people up here were not rich before oil was found, they were not destitute either, and many have made money out of the oil industry - eg house prices rose dramatically and many farmers were able to sell off their steadings for conversion, etc. My husband's view is that this is just the way Nigerian society is, but I have no way of knowing if that is correct.
Rosemary
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I've just managed to lose a very long post, Arrrrrrrggggg
It was a response to the last posts and the points raised therein.; I was all set, and then hit a button that destroyed an hour's work. Apologies.
Back this evening.
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I would imagine that the resentment, the violence, toward foreigners is long standing although the oil situation adds a tremendous pressue, an additional robbing a country of its precious resources. Hasn't the "white man" done this to all of Africa and other countries over the years; although it is true that the country is ripe with corruption at the top thus allowing the robbery as PEDLIN posted.
Andrew's suicide is understandable, don't you agree? He was robbed of all dignity and self respect on that beach in Africa, his manhood (for lack of a better word) was destroyed when Sarah was able to cut off her finger. How could he live with that? Plus he felt he was losing her love.
Gosh, wouldn't divorce have been an answer? I don't know.
Before Africa, Andrew wrote:
"In our small garden I have made a wild place to remind me of chaos. Our modern lives are too ordered, too antiseptic."
Sad.
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Babi, I understand about Little Bee speaking English. What I am wondering is how she learned to read English. On the boat over, the captain gave her a book to read and she did. How did she have access to reading in her village and who taught her???
Sally
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Sorry I've deserted today, I hurt my back in aerobics and have been on couch with heating pad all day. It's Bill's birthday to top it off. I will be in tomorrow.
Traude- write all of your post on "notebook" or microsoft word before copying it in "reply.'
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Sally, since English was the official language of Nigeria, we can safely assume that LB and her girlfriends had a basic instruction in English, even as the daily chatter was carried on in the native dialect - Ibo,, as it turns out. On the cargo ship LB was invisible in every sense of he word. Only in the Detention Center did she have access to books and newspapers and really got a feel for the language. Her interest and gift for observation helped a great deal.
As she tells it, LB had a hard time in the Center at first. Plagued by nightmares and screaming, she was in the medical wing for at least 100 days, where she conceived all those possible ways to kill herself, if confronted by "the men" again. Even after that, she tells us in a flashback, she could not let go.
It puzzled her that some English words have two meanings and, sure enough, exactly that tripped her up when she spoke to the cab driver (Chapter 3). He was offended and, driving off
alone without the girls, muttered "Don't they teach you monkeys any manners in the jungle?" Oh my!
Ella, I agree, it's sad. But people anywhere tend to look at strangers, and especially foreigners, with care, suspicion, sometimes fear, and worse. There's a word for it : xenophobia.
Babi, we really don't know whether there was an 'oil war' or what kind of power struggle twas happening. The author did not "go there"--- probably for good reason. His focus may well be elsewhere, and we'll get to that soon.
Pedln, thank you for the links. As I've said before, they are invaluable. As for the question of whom to believe, who has the answer ? My own routine is to keep u p with the foreign press, in the original language; after all that keeps me "in practice".
Rosemary, your post reminded me that several years ago I was in an internet site where other languages wee spoken. There was a German group and the conversation was pleasant. There was a couple from Nigeria, the wife did the posting. One partner was Austrian, the other Swiss, their children were in boarding school in Europe.
No one asked what they did for a living because that's simply not done. But before long it became clear that oil was was their business. They lived in a compound and took frequent trips home. The site closed, and my Apple gave up at about the same time, and the memory died with it. A bit of sadness -but life goes on.
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Andy , we posted within a second of each other!
Sorry to hear you got hurt at aerobics. Just rest and get well. It's late in the day but please say Happy Birthday to Bill for me.
I have a few more comments on Chapter 3 tomorrow, with luck before I leave for a twice postponed appointment at the eye doctor's -- urgent by now. This time I have someone to take me there and bring me back, courtesy of the local Council on Aging. All these years I've driven there, but last time I was nearly blind and felt guilty for being a menace on the road. Not again!
Take good care !
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Well I finally found the time to read the assigned chapters 4 & 5, and they were very enlightening. I must say Sarah truly becomes more understandable and likeable once you see and feel her emotions and her act of bravery. I like how Cleave eases us into the friendship the two of them are forming. Little Bee seems to have a way with Charlie and knows just when to step in and help when Sarah finds herself unable to.
Babi~ No, I don't think you looking for your mother in the faces of others after her death was strange at all. I too found myself seeing and searching in others faces for my mother after she passed on. When my Mom was dying she was in the hospital from early Feb to March 22 and I spent every single day there beside her bed. I promised her no matter what she would never be alone. My children did not get a chance to see her in those last weeks and I think it was best since the last time they spent with her she was smiling and joking with them at her house. So their last memories of their grandma are happy ones. Its funny how Sarah was on auto pilot and called Andrew's phone when she got the call from the nursery. That so reminded me of the days after my Mom was gone how I would wake up and feel disoriented being home in my own bed and not in the hospital lounge. It takes awhile for your mind to readjust to the loss of a loved one.
So it is finally revealed what happened to Nkiruka and that she indeed is dead. I was amazed at the strength of Nkiruka clinging to her faith. I can only imagine what comfort it provided her while she was being raped and killed. How sad these two chapters are, yet at the end of chapter five I have hope for Sarah, Little Bee and Charlie.
I can't allow myself to comment on the oil war, government involvement etc. Just this past summer we had that horrible oil spill in the gulf and it seemed like our government had a hard time coming out and demand BP to take accountability and act faster. Seems it was reported this was a disaster in the making and could have been prevented had they not wanted to cut cost and save money. I have lost so much confidence in governments that I personally just can't tolerate discussing how our's and other countries government cover up and deny their actions for the sake of oil/money/power.
Andy~ I hope you are feeling better soon. I joined the YMCA a week ago and went to work out and after doing the treadmill I decided to approach what I now call the "killer Machine" the eliptical. For three days I could barely walk,the pain was unbearable. But now I am up and ready to tackle it again....lolol My thoughts are with you. :)
Ciao for now~
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I know the feeling, TRUADE, tho' I've never had an hour's work destroyed. My sympathies.
There is no question the 'white man' has a long an inglorious history of enriching
himself at the expense of others, ELLA. However, I believe in most cases the ruling
governments of Africa are really bad about the 'in' tribes trying to take it all
with little regard for the rest of the country. There seems as yet little sense of
themselves as the people of a nation; the tribe still seems to be the primary unit.
About Little Bee's reading, SALLY, I don't remember any specific explanation.
As I recall, reading the book on the ship was a struggle for her but she had little
else to do and persevered.
(aerobics, ALF? Gee, you still do that? MARIE, do approach the 'killer machine'
with caution. Obviously it's using a different set of muscles than you're used to.)
We are getting better insights into Sarah. “Because this is the thing., with being lovers. It’s not like being married. To remain in the game, one has to be considerate. One has to acknowledge a certain right-to-life of the other.” ????? I would have said that was true of marrige also.
As a widow….”It’s the way people will always look at me now, I suppose, as a foreigner in this country of my heart that I should never have come to.” She is a proud woman; she finds pity hard to endure. (It's a beautiful line, tho'; a bow to the author.)
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Good morning all, I am up and taking nourishment. ::)
Unfortunately, the desire to eat is one thing that never leaves me. Yes, Babi, I still do aerobics and tai chi, sometimes deep water aerobics, BUT the problem is, I wanted to take off ALL of those lbs. that I gained over the holidays off, in one week, so I pushed it.
I'll just back off for a couple of days and stay with my "bed buddy" heating pad.
Bella- I am pleased to read that you found the next two chapters enlightening. We have lost many readers due to the explanation of what horrors LBee and her sister endured under the corruption and mismanagement of Nigeria. They not only institutionalized its people, like Little Bee, but they managed to institutionalize democracy.
Now, they claim Nigeria’s economy is one of the fastest growing in the world and is the second largest in Africa. Nigeria has the highest population of all African countries and is the eighth most populous in the world.
Unfathomable that such Herculean atrocities could have produced growth, isn't it?
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WAVE OF VIOLENCE- from a Jan. 06, 2011 article.
Nigeria has been shaken by violence in recent weeks, including a New Year's eve bomb blast on the edge of an army barracks in Abuja a week after a series of blasts and subsequent clashes killed 80 in the central city of Jos.
Homemade bombs hit a political rally in Bayelsa state, next to Delta, on December 29 and there are fears that the oil region could flare up again ahead of the April polls.
Jonathan is the first Nigerian president from the Ijaw ethnic group, the largest in the Niger Delta, and his failure to win the ruling party primaries next week or the April polls could trigger unrest in his home region.
Traude- I understand your reluctance in putting trust in the oil companies. Will there ever be peace?
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Hello,
The eye exam is over but the long-lasting effect of the dilating drops is just now lifting, too slowly.
There's only so much I can do, and a shut-eye is really my only option at this time.
I feel terrible about being inactive abd therefore send instead a link to the mp of Africa.
http[://www.africaguide.afmap.htom/
he map is interesting anad very helpful because the countries are identified in colors.
What this map does NOT show is the heartbreaking, tempting closeness to the European continent -- a distance which thousands of Africans have crossed, looking for a better life.
Truly a modern migration.
Will be looking for proer geographic info, and be back when I can see again.
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We will be right here Traude. I hope that we get some of our posters back and see if they can get past all of these atrocities, as LittleBee has done.
What's with this Lawrence guy in this story? So he's a lover- big deal that he "has to get used to" Sarah's list of problems.
Babi-
“Because this is the thing., with being lovers. It’s not like being married. To remain in the game, one has to be considerate. One has to acknowledge a certain right-to-life of the other.” Huh?? I would have said that was true of marrige also.
Reading that, I too felt she should afforded Andrew that same courtesy.
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ALF, speaking of atrocities, America is just as guilty. We have assassinated several of our excellent leaders in the past fifty years; the two Kennedy brothers, Martin Luther King. President Reagan was shot at, others I cannot remember and, now again, a young, lovely member of Congress!
Violence in America, one doesn't necessarily have to travel much further afield to find it.
Of course, it's in literature, it's in Africa, it's in evil people everywhere!
One of themes in this book, to me, is the relationships - between Sarah and Bee, of course. Between Sarah and Andrew, between Sarah and her little boy.
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Ella~ Yes indeed we need to only look outside our back door so to speak to witness the violence and injustice right here in our own country. The tragedy in Arizona is being overshadowed by the politics surrounding it and I think it is so very sad our government and media can not take the time to STOP the rethoric long enough to mourn the deaths of these six innocent people. A few seconds of silence, and then back to blaming and pointing fingers at individuals and tv and radio shows for the sick act this person committed.
When I think of the cults that rape the very young females and make them submissive to their brainwashing it reminds me a bit of the detention center Little Bee was in. Its just a different form of captivity.
I so agree with you that this story seems to be so much about Sarah and Little Bee's friendship.
Andy~ As horrific as the truths are as to what happened on the beach, it brought such a new light to Sarah as a person. Before knowing of her heroic act and her true care and concern for Little Bee and her older sister, I was thinking of Sarah as a self centered, highly intelligent, business, no nonsense woman and adulterer. These two chapters let her become vulnerable, sympathetic, and a bit multidimensional. I'm anxious to see where this story goes, I'm not going any where. You take it easy, I sense with all your motivation and activity those lbs will be gone before spring arrives.
Babi~I don't give up easily, I will indeed approach that killer machine and in a few weeks I will conquer it!
Traude~ Good luck with them drops.
Ciao for now~
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Good morning,
I have just whizzed through chapters 4 & 5 before getting up - nearly had a panic attack when saw it was 7.39am and Madeleine still in bed!
These chapters are better then the first three, in that they do round people out a bit. Lawrence is, IMO, a complete pain in the neck, who thinks he's cool with all his "I wasn't up to a "proper" job" nonsense. Being a naive innocent :) - at least by these people's standards - I have no idea if they would have got it on (as I believe the saying once was) right there in his office, but it does seem a bit incredible to me - we don't even see him locking the door! Lawrence is a shallow, self-interested man, and at that point Sarah is equally self-interested; she's bored with her marriage, she feels dominated by her husband, so instead of widening her career or her other interests, she starts an affair with the first man she comes across. The Home Office is of course the government department that makes decisions about asylum seekers, etc - I can't remember if this becomes useful to the plot later on, or whether it is some sort of metaphor - will have to wait and see (at least my sieve like brain means I won't give anything away!)
The story of what happened on the beach is of course terrible; my problem with it is that I just find the plot devices so creaky - honestly, a Times journalist would never have gone to any part of Nigeria on holiday - "we thought our destination was not in the trouble zone" - they didn't even bother to make sure? The place is patrolled by armed guards and they think it's just for show? I see that one of the reviewers on Amazon has said that the exchange of the finger for the child just would not have happened - the killers would have just killed them all - why not?
When Little Bee tells Sarah what happened, she says "It isn't your fault" - and to a certain extent she is right. What happened to Andrew and Sarah is their fault, but what happened to the girls is not - at least not directly (by which I mean that it is only their fault in that they are Westerners). Sarah now thinks she can do something to help Little Bee - again, she is still living in the "we are from the UK and therefore we are untouchable" mode that she and Andrew displayed on the beach. Because she works for a magazine and has contacts, she immediately assumes that she can protect Little Bee; again, I find this hard to believe, as our newspapers are always running stories about refugees and asylum seekers being repatriated. Sometimes a whole community, or a church, etc, opposes the deportation and battles with the Home Office - they very rarely win. How can Sarah be so well educated and professional and not know any of this?
As for Charlie, I can't help it!! I find him one of the most unconvincing children in literature, although his scene at the nursery is more realistic - esp the nursery woman banging on about her "policies".
One last thing - would anyone with a pre-school child still have an open pond in their garden in modern England? Is that meant to be a signpost for Sarah's negligence, or just local detail? The people I know with young children are manic about ponds (and prob with good reason as children have drowned in them). When I was a child, one of my friends had a stream at the bottom of her garden, in which we played unsupervised and very happily, but I bet that wouldn't happen now.
Well, I am sticking with you on this book - though maybe you wish I wasn't? :)
R
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Ah, ALF, it's a terrible thing, but the pounds never come off as
fast as they went on. So unfair.
Take your time, TRAUDE. We all know how these things go. Plans
are made with no guarantees against future disarrangement. Your
health is the most important thing.
Personally, ROSEMARY, I'm very glad you're sticking with us. It's so
helpful having the viewpoint of someone much closer to the scene and
the people represented in Little Bee. I thought Sarah's influence would
be helpful to Little Bee. Your post made it clear that she is being overly
optimistic. Which, of course, worries me for LB.
Remember the gray flag? LB’s image of a flag for refugees was so poignant and perfect. A gray rag of any kind, tied to a
Broom handle. What could better convey the sense of hopelessness , helplessness and poverty? I am fervently hoping this book ends on a
better note than her return to that.
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Good afternoon to all of you!
Yes, do stay, Rosemary!
ALF, I have a lb problem too - the holidays; my sister staying with me - we gorged outselves a bit. We were penny stupid and pound foolish. I'm trying to be hungry.
But must a book be so real, the characters doing the "conventional" thing. Going on holiday to Tuscany, wouldn't that be boring? Sarah wanted something different for her vacation, Andrew seemed to go along. I'll have to check the book, wasn't he the journalist; one that should be abreast of violence here and there.
And, Rosemary, of course, you are right, why didn't the Nigerian men shoot them all on the beach? Could have been they wanted to torture one of them, see how they could take it or maybe the soldiers were coming? Who knows? But the story leads us into the characterization doesn't it? Sarah, for all her selfishness and total irresponsibility at times, was courageous on the beach. She got herself and her husband out of that situation. I would not have done it, I would have froze in terror! End of story.
Babi, I was conscious of the gray, LB's gray, in the book also, but she keeps remembering the see-through plastic bag with the yellow inside; perhaps that is symbolic of hope for her, sunshine.
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Ella-
Violence in America, one doesn't necessarily have to travel much further afield to find it.
Yes, I can not disagree with your assessment of atrocities being global.
Like pain it is all encompassing.
Pain is distributed to each of our characters in this story, isn't it?
Charlie witnesses his first taste of pain losing a parent and soiling his batman costume in “gray mud” after searching for his father, in the grave.
Babi- reminded us of the hopelessness of gray.
Remember the gray flag? LB’s image of a flag for refugees was so poignant and perfect. A gray rag of any kind, tied to a Broom handle. What could better convey the sense of hopelessness , helplessness and poverty?
Sarah- now alone, frantic and hopelessly saddened by the death of her husband who slowly suffered the agony of depression to the point of suicide; and our protagonist, LittleBee, now an orphan, whose entire family was wiped out by greed and corruption.
Physical and mental agony of these characters is heart-wrenching and yet while being tormented with their individual pain they choose to bind together.
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I agree Rosemary that these chapters do round the characters out a bit. Lawrence is an ass- said and accepted! :P
You ask:The exchange of the finger for the child just would not have happened - the killers would have just killed them all - why not?
I need to research that a bit. I remember reading it and thinking the "general", once an engineer (wasn't he?) had a stroke of humanity wash over him and decided instead of killing them on the beach he would play with them. He wanted that middle finger from Andrew because all of his life "the white man had been giving him the finger." It's a play on words here, I think.
I love different viewpoints but I truly can not answer nor explain the "pond" business in the story. I don't know anything about gardens nor ponds in England. Gay where are you?? She'll be in to enlighten us, I hope.
Remember, this was a FREEBIE when they chose Nigeria. Fools, I agree but hey- what the hey? It's free. ::)
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My problem with the scene on the beach is how Andrew seemed to think he could act arrogant looking down the sharp blade of a machete, on foreign soil. I kept asking myself what person in there right mind would even think of challenging a pack of ruthless soldiers on a deserted beach? The entire conversation between Andrew and the guard insisting they go back to the compound for their own safety frustrated me. "The white man said."Oh don't give us the big performance. Just tell us how much you want. Come on. My wife is sick to the gills of being cooped up in that f---in compound. What will you take to let us go for a walk on our own? One dollar?" Then they go on and on about the money amount. I found myself going...REALLY???? Then Andrew says, "I have my editor telling me what's best for me fifty-one weeks of the year. I didn't come here to have anyone edit my holiday."
The entire beach scene seemed a bit contrite to me. Sarah deciding to cut off her finger was heroic and yet her character prior to this is so uncharacteristic of her actions then. I feel the author has got me going back and forth where Sarah is concerned.
The entire conversation with Lawrence makes no sense to me. Its like let's throw in an affair to show the marriage was on shaky grounds, yet she tells Andrew on the beach "I love you, Andrew. I'm pleased we came away. I'm so sorry I let you down. It won't happen again." "Really. I don't love Lawrence. How could I? Let's make a fresh start." Yet, when she talks to Lawrence its as if she is clingy and he is the one who is not in it for anything but an affair. To be perfectly honest I am struggling with attaching myself to any of the characters except for Charlie. I have raised three children, (two sons) and was in education for K-Jr High for 15 yrs prior to owning my in-home day care for 12 yrs, for me the author is right on target where Charlie is concerned.
It's the adults in the story I am finding hard to believe. I keep hearing my friend saying, "It's only a book Marie, it's only a book."
Ciao for now~
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I have been in bed with the flu for 8 days. As a result, I am in the middle of chapter 3. It is difficult to concentrate. Tonight, I spent catching uip with the posts. But, I stopped reading at Jude's post of January 8th. I will resume reading the posts once I have read chapters 3 & 4.
The first 2 1/2 chapters were a bit confusing for me, too. I found chapter one the more confusing. It took me a while to become comfortable with LB's way of speaking. I had not realized that English is the primary language of Nigeria. Reading all of your posts, has helped me to better understand what I have read.
Sheila
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Sheila - get well soon :). Lots of people here have been ill over the holidays, such a shame. I do hope you are feeling better.
Bellamarie - I agree with all you say about the beach scene, and I also understand what you say about Charlie - I have only got experience of my own and my friends' children, and it is some years now since I had a 4 year old, so thank you for your insight into that. What do you think about the pond? Parents here are paranoid about them (even my parents covered in the pond in their garden when I was born - and that was a LONG time ago!).
Alf43 - you are right, I had forgotten that bit about the leader being an engineer who had studied in the UK. I'm sure the finger thing is a play on words, I just wasn't convinced that it would actually have happened (but then, as we've discussed elsewhere, the plot - such as it is - in the Ladies of Covington books wouldn't have happened either (sadly), and I don't have too many problems with that, so maybe I should just stop being so cynical :D - I think it's just that I find Cleave's tone awfully preachy at times.
I still don't think any sane current affairs journalist would have taken a holiday, even a free one, in Nigeria. Certainly no-one from an oil-based community like ours would have, but maybe I am just too used to Aberdeen?
Rosemary
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I think people act/react in all sorts of unrealistic ways --the soldiers on the beach could have been tired of their duties of killing ....??were they Nigerians, I thought they were...were there underlying empathise for their kind, but money speaks and then these English people with their pompous behaviour...lets see what guts they are made of might be his thoughts
-while I was in Brownsville, there were some horrible things going on in Metamoros, Mexico just 5 miles away...yet I was hearing of people still going to Garcia's for entertainment (just a 2 minute walk into Mexico from the custom's bridge), or to Progreso, Mexico despite the fact there is a soldier with machine gun standing behind sandbags up to his waist just as you enter the city---the young man, who chose to waive his inner caution, even with his wife trying to dissuade him and they chose to zip across the river to see a submerged church for something to do, at the cost of his life (this was drug cartel patrolled area, just inside the Mexico border)--I believe we get caught up in the it would/could never happen to me-- syndrome-----but I think if a guard came up to me with a machine gun on his shoulder I would not try to dispute his suggestions,after all it is his country
Deb
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/littlebee/littlebeecvr.jpg) | January Book Club Online
"Little Bee"
by Chris Cleave
Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined.
In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion. |
Facts:
*Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960. Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens.
*Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world. Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high. There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse?
*The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called, to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense. |
Reading Schedule
January 2, Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9, Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16, Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31, Conclusions
Discussion Leaders: Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com ) and Andy (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
Bella- Yes, Andrew was very arrogant in his encounter with the “gang” at the beach. Andrew struck me as feeling “entitled” like so many people with prestige and distinction exhibit.
They take on the persona of eminence.
His arrogance and daring didn’t fly however with the leader who was not the least bit affected by Andrew’s bribes or insolence.
I think Sarah in her characteristic manner just wanted it over with. She too bargained for their lives by hastily sacrificing her finger (and her marriage.)
I agree with Rosemary’s questioning of whether or not this could actually happen. Now, they would just shoot and forego the questioning.
After a period of time most crazed thieves lose all sense of reasoning. They get all fired up participating in violence, rapes and murder. It makes me shudder just thinking about what poor Nkiruka had to endure.
Deb- I do believe that they were young Nigerian men. You mentioned Metamoros just 5 miles away- when we disembarked about 10 years ago in Playa del Carmen, we were met at the beach with little men holding UZIS! I thought I’d have a heart attack. I thought they were kids but the bartender at the beach Cabana (that’s as far as I got) assured me these soldiers were there for our “safety.” I told him I didn’t feel very safe with kids holding UZIs on their shoulders. My husband told me to be quiet and the bartender just shook his head “NO.” I shushed- no dispute! (Not an easy feat for me.)
I still don't think any sane current affairs journalist would have taken a holiday, even a free one, in Nigeria
. I must agree on that thought as well, Rosemary. Who the heck would pay for this holiday- the travel agents?
Sheila- I am so sorry you have been ailing with the flu. Did you get your flu shot this year? If I lived nearby I would bring you my famous chicken soup to hasten your recovery. I think once you get into chapters 4-5 you will begin to see the light.
Take your time; we will be here awaiting news of your return to good health.
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The questions about the Nigerian killers made me remember the dying man who was their leader.
I felt he really despised who he was and what he was doing. He was damned and he deserved it.
I think he offered to spare the girls in return for a sacrifice, hoping Andrew would actually
accept but not believing for a second he would. Sarah's action caught him by surprise. Both
for that reason, and because he didn't really care, he let them go.
He let the men rape and kill the older girl, though he did not participate himself. After
they had staggered off to a drunken slumber, and Little Bee had made her escape, he walked
into the sea and swam to his death.
MARIE, I think you're right about Andrew. The man just could not believe in a reality outside
his own safe horizons. If it threatened him, it had to be a scam.
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http://www.yourchildlearns.com/mappuzzle/africa-puzzle.html (http://www.yourchildlearns.com/mappuzzle/africa-puzzle.html)
just wanted to add for interests sake a map of Africa I came across which one times them self against the clock to plug in the countries....when I was in grade 8 we had to complete a free drawing of a continent and draw & name the countries within....I think my map of that time would be unrecognizable with the one on this site--some of the country outlines are very odd shaped I guess by division and re division over the years
Deb
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Deb-
I love puzzles but I can not get the pieces for this one to open. Is it me or is it the link?
Babi- I think you're right about our gorilla leader. He had seen enough and felt "de-humanized."
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Shelia~I am so sorry to hear you have been down with the flu. I do hope you are feeling better. I too had difficulty with the first two chapters, I can honestly say I read and reread them at least four times. Like I said before this book is not an easy read and not for sissies. lolol
Rosemary~ As far as the pond I can appreciate your concern for young children around them. I have an in-ground swimming pool in my back yard have a white picket fence and arbor to separate the swimming area from the play area for my day care kids. I am not a swimmer myself but have no true fear of the kids because I am out there at all times and have the gate locked. A pond is a bit more difficult to secure although I have friends who have them in their back yards and also have children. I suppose it all depends on the level of your secureness and also constant supervision if a child and pond are in the same area.
bookad~ You make an excellent point about the violence in Mexico, yet it seems to not deter tourists to continue to visit. I personally would go NOWHERE before scoping out the entire safety of the region, and Nigeria with the oil war going on would not have been a decision for me, free or not. There are in these chapters many inconsistencies as in many books and movies that have the reader going...huh??
I'm still trying to imagine Little Bee tackling "Great Expectations" stowed away on a ship. ???
Babi~ We were posting at the same time. I agree the Leader knew he was going to die, and I think he did not want one more death, rape or act of violence on his conscious. He would not have been able to stop the others so he just decided to take his own life.
Ciao for now~
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hi Andy
regarding the puzzle link to the map of Africa
I tried the link and it took me to a page with 4 choices on the left side of i.e. map with outlines
click on choice....then to the right faintly there is *PLAY*--it is faint and I did not see it the first time I entered this site...but click on that and it should take you to the map of Africa and to the right will be little countries in various colours and you drag the country to the appropriate area on the map of Africa...some of those small countries are tricky....I tried the map without outlines once and it took me quite a while...
hopefully you will be able to link to the puzzle now, it is really interesting especially the more you do it...the countries really stick in your mind
if the above doesn't work for you try copy and paste link into an address bar on your computer
Deb
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Andy, thank you very much for being here while I was absent.
It took hours on Tuesday before my vision cleared. The condition has further deteriorated especially in one eye, and it's time to look for optical aids designed for patients with macular degeneration.
On Tuesday night two storms converged over Massachusetts, one coming from the South,
the other one of our notorious, infamous Nor'easters. The result was horrendous.
We were hit hard, not only in the western region of the Berkshires hear the border with Connecticut, but everywhere in the state, including the entire coast. It was a wild and woolly night. B Wednesday morning huge branches were down in the front yard, and half of one of my cherished rhododendron bushes near the house. The power as off during the night. Schools were closed Wednesday and my son did the shoveling - several times over, because it kept snowing ualal day long until 10 at night.. The problem is what to do with the snow - so much was left over from the last storm - and more is on its way.
Thank you for all your posts and links. Deb, I too was unable to open the map puzzle because I didn't know where the "puzzle piece" is that needs to be dragged to the map. I'll try again.
It's too late to respond to all the posts now, but one point needs to be further explored : what happened before the night on the beach.
Cleave gives us to surmise that oil was suspected under the village where LB and her family lived. Therefore the village was targeted (but by whom?). At night came the men, soldiers, and started killing the men. Who had sent them ? An officially recognized company could have evacuated the people - why this violence and all the secrecy ? Then they burnt down the houses. LB, her sister and a group of women and children escaped into the jungle. We do not know in whose employ the soldiers acted and operated. But they must have been told that no one who had been there, seen or heard anything, should be kept alive.
The soldiers were after LB and Nkiruka, whose scent the dogs had picked up. They could not have known that they'd find white people, guests, on the beach. I believe they were all Nigerians. The country has been independent since 1960, and there's no reason to believe foreign soldiers would be involved.
On the other hand, the young guard was hired by the hotel to protect its guests. That may be all he knew to do. And he tried desperately to get Sarah and Andrew away from the beach and back to the (erhaps relative) safety of the hotel. Because of Andrew's obstinacy it did not happen. Not only was he arrogant (not to mention foolish) in the extreme, but showed open contempt by taking for granted that money would correct everything, the more the better.
I believe that the leader - whatever he was or for whom he worked, had a sense of honor. He must have been offended. Sarah understood that they wanted the girls and she was prepared to save them both, and that's why she offered her own finger. It clearly surprised the leader.
As I said a while ago, we need to also look at the male characters in the story, including the leader - to the extent possible. Neither Andrew nor Lawrence are what I consider an honorable man.
Rosemary, I'm glad you're staying with us.
More tomorrow
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Straude, your comment about "honorable" brings up the question: What is honorable? Can an honorable man sometimes behave in a dishonorable manner? I certainly don't consider the leader honorable. How could he be honorable and allow the rape and horrific torture of LB's sister? I think Sarah behaved in an honorable manner by giving her finger, but she doesn't seem honorable in other ways.....Maybe Andrew was honorable, and was tormented by his dishonorable behavior and That was why he was depressed and eventually took his life.
Sally
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Sally~ I'm with you I did not see any honor in the leader's actions.
The leader took his own life because he knew he was going to die and he chose when, where and how. I feel he did not participate in the rape and torture because he did not want anymore blood on his own hands. As for Lawrence, I see no honor in his having an affair behind his wife's back. And Andrew was in no way honorable, if anything he was foolish, selfish and yes, stupid to disregard the orders of the guard. His depression and ultimate suicide was a culmination of him not doing anything to help himself or others. He knew of the affair and did nothing, he could have done something to save the two girls and his wife on the beach but he did nothing, they returned home and he was depressed and he did nothing to get help for himself. IMO Andrew was a weak man. I see suicide as a coward's way out. Once Little Bee contacted him it seems he could not bare facing her knowing he did nothing to help her or her sister. The men in this story has not shown me any honor as I perceive it.
Straude~ I'm sorry to hear about your degenerating eye condition. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. We got hit with snow in Ohio but nothing near as much as you are dealing with. While looking out my windows and seeing the beauty of the white covered trees, I feel for my husband who is a mailman and has to go out and tackle walking in it.
Ciao for now~
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We have been stuck at thr bottom of our driveway since Monday. The driveway is a sheet of ice - the man we asked to shovel it said it would take a pick to clear it - and the country road isn't much better. It is supposed to get warmer Saturday so I hope we can get out without trouble Sunday. Monday morning my husband is to have his knee replaced and we will probably stay at a motel in town Sunday night. The problem is that it melts a little in the daytime and then freezes solid at night. Untypical weather for this part of Tennessee.
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About the risks of that trip to Nigeria, as I recall, both Nigeria
and Britain were denying there was any 'war' going on. The hotel,
the Nigerian tourism people and some others had heavily invested in
that bag of 'freebies'. When trouble sprang up in the area, they
simply decided to keep quiet about it and hire some guards, rather
than lose their investment.
(There seems to be really atypical weather all over the globe this
winter, URSA. It's seems to be getting steadily worse over the past
few years. I hope I'm imagining that; it would be rather ominous,
wouldn't it? :-X )
Little Bee really brought it home to me, the difficulty of trying to explain the modern world to people whose lives were encompassed by a small village and the customs of who-knows-how-many years.
So simple a thing as a wood floor is cause for amazement and wonder. As she said, it’s like having to explain everything from first principles.
She really hit me hard with these words: “I am telling you, trouble is like the ocean; it covers two-thirds of the world”. But as I thought about it, I realized that is probably quite accurate. What a sorry picture that is.
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I think the author is trying to show how unknowing or innocent (i.e.unexperienced) people learn about the world.
Two naive Britishers took a free holiday to Nigeria and were rudely awakened to what was really happening in that part of Africa . Actually there are even worse countries than Nigeria where the horror is almost unmentionable as in Sudan, Darfur etc.
A little Nigerian girl learns what horror is as her body matures. She will never be naive again after what she has experienced.
it seems the book is how one is able to live with these horrors-knowing they exist nd yet wanting to go on living a good or perhaps meaningful life.
What keeps coming to my mind is Anne Frank and the survivors of the Death camps. How the will to live and overcome reasserts itself in some people and in others, like Andrew, drives them to suicide.
Some very profound themes under the obvious action on the pages.
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Sally, I'm so sorry y you had the flu for more than a week but are getting better.
Babi, it is the extremes in temperature we are seeing worldwide that are worrisome, like the flooding in Queensland in NE Australia, which is said to be the worst in decades. Man has come very far, but so far he hasn't learned to tame Mother Nature.
Ursamajor, we will be thinking of you and your husband on Monday when his knee replacement surgery is scheduled. All good wishes.
Sally, as I was tyig my post he other night I paused over the word "honorable" because it was not quite the adjective I needed or wanted. For Andrew was really not a man without honor, but rather one devoid of feelings (even for himself) or compassion. Of course we seem only as a reflection through the eyes of LB and Sarah, the two narrators.
Jude, indeed, the instinct for survival is one of the strongest we have. It impelled LB to leave the Ayres' farm shortly after she woke up in the night and found no-name dead. She imagined her sister Nkiruka walking beside her mile after mile, the rest of the night toward the light of the big city. For her to get that far, after two years in confinement and mostly sedentary, crossing three-lane highways and climbing over the metal dividers, was a superhuman effort, an act of heroism.
In the Ares' barn Yevette told about the "trick"that got the four girls their release. It involved an immigration officer who ostensibly gave Yevette four history lessons that would be helpful in getting her legitimized, but papers he could not provide. An outrage, for sure, that happens many times all over the world. And what a contrast was the humane action of Mr. Ayres of taking them in, at great risk to himself.
Ella said recently that the story is about relationships. How true. We see it in Chapters 4 and 5.
P.S. Bellamarie, thank you for your kind thoughts. I'm grateful.
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Bellamarie - our postman is a lovely guy - he never minds the snow and ice, does most of his rounds in shorts, and today (gloom, cloud and rain) I saw him in sunglasses. He is always cheerful and friendly - if I see him down the street and he has already put a "couldn't deliver your parcel" card through my door, he always calls out to me and finds the packet for me. I do think postmen are fantastic - and I hope we manage to keep our door to door deliveries; when we lived in St John's we just had to collect our letters from a central mailbox place and it was not the same at all. I hope your husband managed through the snow and ice.
I still remember the postman we had when I was 18, bringing my A-level results to me and waiting to see if they were OK - another very nice man.
Rosemary
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Rosemary~ Awww I am so happy to hear your postman is a nice person. I have to share with you that my hubby has been on his walking route for now 28 yrs. He leaves in the morning with a smile and returns regardless of the weather with a smile. All the people on his route sing nothing but praises of him. Many attend our church and when they see him especially the elderly, they light up and have to talk to him. I know how special my hubby is to me and our family, but I have to say when I see a little child, a teen, a twenty yr old, middle aged or elderly person respond to the kindness he delivers each day to them, I beam with joy to know he truly cares for his patrons.
Now for the next two chapters.....OMG what can I say? I am devastated at what is revealed. I just finished reading them and I am so sad I just want to cry. So Little Bee is not so innocent and like all Bees they have stingers and are willing to use them if need be. She has cornered Lawrence into being deceptive and break the law for her own survival. "Oh the webs we weave, as we set out to deceive." I think a better name for Little Bee would have been the black widow spider. When Charlie asks if someone is a goodie or baddie, and Sarah said in the earlier chapter she is a baddie, well I think its very likely her first instincts are going to prove true.
These chapters have my head spinning with thoughts of each of the characters and their actions. Makes me wonder if this book is to teach us a bit about how at some point in our lives when faced with our own survival if we lose who we are to save our self. They are all trying to save each other in some way, yet they are losing their own selves in doing so. Gosh does this make any sense at all..............I need to go process these two chapters a bit more. At this second I have NO sympathy for Little Bee. I am so disgusted in her part in Andrew's death that I can't find a way to justify what she did. I know she lost her sister, I know she spent two years in detention and lost all innocence, I know her town was brutally destroyed, I know she realizes the person she has become and is wise to the world in ways to save her own neck, but I am still having a hard time in understanding how it justifies her telling Lawrence everything and involving him in the deception. She knows at that point she has destroyed his relationship with Sarah. When Sarah walks into the kitchen with Charlie all happy go lucky, I just want to cry for her, knowing what Little Bee has done to her, Andrew, Lawrence and Charlie.
I don't see any happy endings in this book for anyone at this point......
Ciao for now~
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Well, today I am finally feeling better. I was even able to eat regular food, including salad. Hip, hip, hooray. I was also able to finish chapters 4 & 5. So, I am ready to begin the next chapters, tomorrow.
Bella, I enjoyed reading your latest post. Your hubby sounds to be a good guy! However, what you share about chapters 4 & 5, are very different than what I remember. So, I must go back and reread them. I do not remember LB having a conversaion with Lawrence. How did I miss that?
I do feel empathy with LB. I love her blossuming relationship with Charlie. Knowing that the reason she called Andrew was being a young woman, raised in another country, and only knowing two people in this country, and being an illegal, making that phone call seems perfectly natural, to me.
Having lived in rural, Southern Italy, in the mid 1960s for several months, I can relate to being in a foreighn cultural. I had four young children. We went to the local public market one day, and it began raining, hard. My children and I took refuge in what I thought was a public cafe. Later, my American friends laughed and told me I had taken refuge in a house of ill repute.
We drove one weekend o Bari, from near Brindisi. As we waled along the beach front I noticrd people were turning around to stare at me, with disapproval. I was dressed in a blouse, and slacks. At that time, no respectable woman wore slacks in public.
We lived in a triplex. The owners lived in one third of it, and were building the final third section. After we came home from grocery shopping , the wife of the owner came to talk with me. It was Octobeer, and when she saw me taking ou a pumpkin, and began crying "no bouno, no bueno. She also complained when I thre away some string which had been used to tiesome packages up. Nothing is to be wasted in Italy. At lease not in the 1960s. My way of doing things, was nopt acceptable.
LB's way of doin things was not acceptable in her new country.
Sheila
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Am I behind? I still have so many notes before we even get to
Little Bee's confrontation with Lawrence.
(Sarah: speaking of how she comes to take a lover:
“To have an affair, I began to realize, was a relatively minor transgression.” Her affair was ‘handing out in-flight meals in a plane crash”. The marriage was already in serious trouble, before the mysterious incident at the beach. It was when she realized that she had fallen in love with her lover, had given him more of herself than she had her husband…that was a major transgression. She claimed that “to really escape from Andrew, to really become myself, I had to go the whole way…”
She doesn’t explain why she had to escape from her husband to become herself. Her lifestyle sounds as though she was doing just fine in that arena. I think this was simply a more acceptable excuse in her own mind than her earlier mood of wanting to ‘show off her wings’.
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Good morning, I hope I did not give too much away, but our assignment for this week is chapters six through nine. I have only read through chapter seven, so I see I must read two more chapters for the week. I am using my Nookcolor, but I do believe the chapters are the same as a regular book.
Shelia~Thank you so much for sharing your days in Italy. I could only wish to spend a week in my homeland. It sound wonderful!
Have to get ready for church so will check back in later. I can't wait to hear what everone has to say about these chapters. So much is revealed...I could not process it all last night.
Ciao for now~
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Babi and Bella- We are indeed reading chapters 6-9 this week but like Babi I feel that there is still some unattended business we've not explored. I apologize if it is because I've not been in here twice a day as is my usual custom when co-leading a book.
I loved LB explanation of the first time she tasted tea; "She was exported with it."
And- if scratched one would find that her skin smells of it. I love this writing here: "When I tasted it (the tea that Sarah brought to LB) all I wanted was to get back into the boat and go home again, to my country. ...Tea is sharp with memory. It tastes of longing It tasted of the distance between where you are and where you come from. Also it vanishes- the taste of it vanishes from your tongue while your lips are still hot from the cup. it disappears, like plantations stretching up into the mist. I have heard that your country drinks more tea than any other. How sad that must make you- like children who long for absent mothers."
Wow- that is one very powerful paragraph. These analogies are what drew me to this novel, the writing is wonderful.
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I wonder if the author is a friend of Bono, the lead artist for the British rock band U2 because he mentions that when LBee came out of hiding from the guerillas on the beach, she heard a radio playing "one" by U2 from a military truck.
Here is a clip from You Tube if you want to hear the song.
ONE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqyW1XQrNhk)
LBee knew the song as it always played in her home. (That is a stretch to me) but what-ever! ???????
Bono's group is rife with social and political commentary, always introducing new elements into their repertoire and are major motivators of current events.
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Ok- now I'm good with moving on watching LBee drink her tea thinking of everything vanishing and draining away into the sand or mist as Sarah invites her to stay on with her and Charlie.
Babi- feel free to mention anything from any of the previous chapters. This just gives us a guideline and as you know, many times we return to what we've already read.
Yes, Bella, Sarah takes on a different color in these chapters as does our Little Bee.
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Sheila, how wonderful to have lived in Italy. I doubt if it has changed much, at least in the countryside - I've been there 3 times and never seen anything wasted. There is also a much better relationship between older and younger people there than in the UK - when we were in Sienna, whole families would walk around the town in the evenings eating ice cream, and on Sunday they had huge family meals, either at home or in a restaurant, which went on for hours and at which everyone from the tiny babies to the most elderly family members were present. Although wine was served freely, I never saw anyone drunk - there was absolutely none of the binge drinking so prevalent in our cities. My daughter used to have a school friend who came from Bari - her poor mother, who was very young and beautiful, was permanently freezing up here, and delighted when her husband's job was moved to Paris. Madeleine used to love going to play at Alexandra's house - not least because the food was so delicious :)
We also stayed once in a beautiful guest house high up above the Bay of Sorrento - I remember being surrounded by lemon groves, which I had never seen before as it's too cold to grow anything like that here. We could sit on our balcony in the evening and drink our Peronis whilst looking straight out over the blue Mediterranean.
I know it would be very different to live in Italy - we were just on holiday - but my friend who has moved there permanently loves it so much that they have sold their house here and bought one there; they love the people, the food, the weather, the culture - just about everything.
ALF - I don't know if Chris Cleave does know Bono, but I realised on looking at his website that Cleave is in fact a Guardian columnist - which almost inevitably means that he will be very hip and left wing, and will very likely know the "cool" movers and shakers.
Rosemary
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Good Sunday Morning!
Thank you for y our fine posts.
Yes, Andy and Babi, I agree that there are more things to consider in Chapters 4 and 5 before we go on because they are essential.
What happened on the beach is the core, the heart of the story, its raison d'être. The full details of what preceded it, and its aftermath, are only now emerging, slowly. We dn't yet have the full picture. But we still have half a month -- there's no need to rush. Pazienza= patience.
And by all means, let's enjoy the fine writing in passages like those Andy and others have quoted. Cleave is wonderful with dialogue. Sarah's phone conversations with Lawrence late on the day of Andrew's funeral are a marvelous example. All we need to know about Lawrence is right there.
To be continued
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Alf
Thanks for that lead to the song "ONE" by U2.I had never paid attention to that group before or knew that song. I listened to two versions of it and picked up on some lines that fit into this story almost as if written for it. The author didn't pick out this song at random but knew the words and was adding some depth to the situation.
Here are the lines I jotted down.
Isit getting better?Do you feel any better?
Did I disappoint you? Leave a bad taste in your mouth?
Oh for forgiveness. Have you come to raise the dead?
There are other interesting lines as well but those stood out as an adjunct to the main plot. Perhaps a modern Greek chorus? This new experience (listening to U2) gave me a start.They have something to say and young people the world over are listening to them.
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JudeS- I have a good friend that is a U2 fan, she has even followed them to Ireland for concerts, so I have a pretty clear concept of their music. It just surprised me when I read it in LittleBee. Why not, I thought, it's a political statement!
Yes, Traude, everyone lost and learned something on that beach, didn't they? A finger, a soul and childhood innocence- gone forever.
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So much to say --
Jude, excellent. The girls back home are indeed like a modern Greek chorus. Thank you.
Sheila, thank you for sharing your memories of Italy. I love the country, I studied there (in Florence, Perugia and Rome) and I lived in Venice after WW II. I've been back several times since. What I remember best was a visit in 1989, right after Pink Floyd had given a concert there on Piazza San Marco and left behind tons of debris.
Bari and Brindisi are both in Puglia (Apulia in Italian), on the south-eastern flank of the Italian boot on the Adriatic coast. The southern states (regioni they are called, and there are 20 of them) have always been more secluded. our remarks also reminded me of the book by Carlo Levi, a writer, artist and doctor. Because of his anti-fascist activism he was exiled to the southern region of Lucania (now called Basilicata). His memoir Cristo si è fermato a Eboli = Christ Stopped at Eboli was published in 1945.
I will always treasure my memory of Italy.
Right back
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The Week in Review in the Sunday NYT had an article by the eminent Chinua Acheve, a native of Nigeria, currently a professor at Brown U. in Rhode Island. The article, on he last page of that section, is titled Nigeria's Promise, Africa's Hope.
I have not read all of it yet but will share any insight that will be relevant to this discussion.
Back to our book.
I read the book two months ago, a friend's copy which, needless to say, had to be returned in its spotless condition. Then I bought my own and can highlight anything I believe is important, to my heart's content. Then I re-read.
But chapter 4 was more difficult because it is there that the much talked-about-before violence actually occurs. What we read is a reconstruction, but tit does not reduce he impact. the revelation comes on the day of Andrew's funeral, Charlie's in bed, Sarah wants to know what happened. LB begins and, at some point, At some point LB falls asleep from exhaustion, nd Sarah's memory kicks inUntil then, she'd had been sleepless, unable to mourn or even cry, numb, fueled by her Gin and Tonics. This is a tentative opening to reveal pent-up emotions and denial.
With LB asleep, Sarah calls back Lawrence, her lover, himself married with children, a working wife and a sometimes unpunctual nanny, and (still) in no apparent rush to change the status quo. Is this then really a story without a plot? With respect, I'm not so sure.
Some of the facts revealed in Chapter 4 :
* Both Sarah and Andrew are obstinate, Sarah to the point of deliberatemcontrariness
* When her mother counsels Safah not to marry Andrew, because they are too much alike,
they get married even earlier. They honeymoon in Cuba.
* It is Sarah's doing to take the freebie to Nigeria, despite Andrew's reservations, and she admits (in Chapter 4) that he agreed because he thought it was the only way for him to keep her.
* Sarah's explanation of how and why Nigeria was chosen is, frankly, unconvincing .
Even so, this is Cleave' story and we have committed to discussing what is there, whether we like it or not.
I'll get to Chapter tomorrow, pazienza per piacere.
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If my page numbers are correct, my current comments should be from
Ch. 6. I think I'm caught up.
What caught my attention on the argument between Sarah and
Andrew was the comment that “It was less like a discussion and more like a terrible mix-up at the printers.” I’ve observed that marital arguments often seem like that. The parties involved aren’t really hearing each other at all. They are each airing the things that have upset them most and the replies of each seem to have little, if any, relevance to what the other has said.
I found it really disturbing that after an abortive phone call with Lawrence, Sarah lost control and smashed the cake she had just finished making for Charlie. The cake had been an act of love. Sure, she made another cake, but she could have taken out her frustrations on something else. I cannot imagine myself attacking the cake I had just made for a beloved child. That really strikes a wrong note for me.
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Babi - I cannot imagine myself attacking any cake (except with a cake fork that is...) ;D
R
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ahaahaaaaaaaa I echo that one Rosemary.
Yes, Babi, you're in the right spot. I kind of chuckled though, when Lawrence introduced Andrew to Sarah (with his arm around her.) OOPS
The priest was sure the two of them would get on, too. ::)
I wonder why Sarah never really adored Andrew or felt fulfilled with him yet she was able to let herself go completely with Lawrence. Was it because he was so self-deprecating, do you think? She told us that to escape Andrew and become herself she had to "go the whole way." But why Lawrence? He seems like such a sop, even if he did provide Sarah with the thrill of parties, meeting new folks and "feeling irresistible".
"...there are circumstances in which we will allow men to enter our bodies but not our homes."
Holy smokes, I was single for 12 years and dating I wouldn't even let a guy pick me up at the house. I didn't want any guy knowing where I lived, much less bringing him to my bed.
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Babi~ I agree, I was a bit shocked when I read her attacking the cake. Chapter 6 has really unnerved me. Maybe I need a cake to attack. lolol
I am freaked out at how devious and calculated Little Bee is in this chapter. I realize she is out for her own survival but my goodness to play with Andrew's mind the way she did in the garden was down right freaky and inhuman. She could tell the man was in bad shape, yet she played with his mind by appearing and disappearing. I can't figure out if she was getting her revenge on him for not saving Nikura her older sister. I never warmed up to Little Bee from the beginning of this book, and now I totally dislike the person she is. Can you even imagine having someone like her living in your home and getting close to your young child. I seriously think she would use Charlie if she felt threatened by Sarah turning her in. She is a desperate refugee and I think she will stop at nothing to save herself. Just the idea of all the thoughts of how to committ suicide if the men come scares me, but now imagine her thinking of the many ways to harm Lawrence or Sarah if they turn on her. Ewwww this book is really creeping me out after reading chapter 6.
Ciao for now~
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I am confused as to where we are in the discussion. It turns out I am not very good at reading books in parts. I tend to read a book straight through given the chance. Anyway, I read six through nine, I think, and then had to keep going because of how nine ended. And now I have all kinds of end-of-the-book issues running though my mind. That's neither here nor there.
But I agree with you absolutely, Alf. Lawrence is a sop. If Sarah was feeling beaten down by Andrew's personality and opinions, maybe Lawrence was a bit of a relief. But ick.
Babi mentions Little Bee speaking of trouble. "'You have seen trouble too, Sarah. You are making a mistake if you think it is unusual. I am telling you, trouble is like the ocean. It covers two thirds of the world.'" Previously Sarah has said, "Whenever I need to stop and remind myself how much I once loved Andrew, I only need to think of this. That the ocean covers seven tenths of the earth's surface, and yet my husband could make me not notice it." I am wondering what else is like the ocean. Borderless, expansive, far reaching, uncontained.
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Deems
What can stretch forever and is borderless and uncontained is a person's imagination. Not everyones perhaps, but many peoples.
Children are especially good at imagining unless an adult succeeds in "curing" them of their fantasies.
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Beautifully put, Jude.
Deems 2, according to the schedule, chapters 6 to 9 are being discussed this week.
In re-reading the book I have lingered over certain questions, some of them unresolved, perhaps unresolvable, like the meaning of the finger, for example.
I too prefer reading a book in its entirety but do adhere to the discussion schedule when one is set.
This discussion we are hampered by the editors' warnings "not to tell", an unusual enjoinder. The chronological sequence of events is made clearer in a subsequent chapter, which can be confusing at first. Some coincidences seem contrived. For me it is hardest to get a "feel" for Andrew; we simply don't know enough about him.
On to Lawrence tomorrow.
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Andrea - I couldn't agree more. How could she sleep with Lawrence in her own house/bed, knowing that Charlie was next door? She says she has reservations about it, but she proceeds to do it just the same. I always feel I am very straight-laced about things like this, so I'm glad you feel the same. And as for Lawrence - yes, yuck. He doesn't give a damn about his poor wife ("I wish I loved my wife" - how pathetic is that? Next he'll be saying she "just doesn't understand me", when she probably understands him all too well.) He says he has come to help - what claptrap, he has just turned up because he thinks there's a chance of sex. And all this self-deprecating nonsense - IMO it's only men who actually think they're quite hot who try this approach; he really thinks he's entitled to deceive and betray his wife and family because he fancies a few nights with Sarah. Yet at the same time he goes on and on about the "high principles" he must adhere to because of his Home office job. Gosh, everyone in this book wants their own way, don't they? They all behave like 4 year olds, not just Charlie. Haven't got up to the bit about Little Bee/Lawrence/Andrew yet, so can't comment till later - but have a dr's appointment this afternoon and if the wait is anything like it usually is, I'll have ample time to catch up.
Got to go to work now - it's a bit of a shock to the system working 2 full weeks after all these months of 2 afternoons a week!
R
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Rosemary- You take a rest, put your feet up (with our book of course) and we'll await your return. :-*
I agree with your assessment of Lawrence's self-deprecating nonsense. He sounds as if he wants everyone to "build him up." with the old poor me attitude.I can not stand people like that who continually belittle and frown upon themselves.
GET OVER YOURSELF!
Deems- I, too, have a tendency to swhish right through a book- I want to know what happens to everyone and am not patient to out wait a discussion schedule. My book will sit there and call me. I reread only the assigned chapters just before we discuss them so that I don't divulge anything further.
Lawrence going to a management course? He even bought the kids toys for a gift when he returned. I bet his wife did a cart wheel when he left with suitcase in hand.
Bella- Little Bee did not freak me out. I have a different view of her.. Again, keeping in mind this is a sixteen year old who has witnessed death, destruction and mutilation. So Andrew choosing to free himself from his misery , she took in stride. Yes, she was vengeful, blaming Andrew for the death of Nkiruka. She tells the threatening Lawrence at the breakfast table that in her world death will come chasing. In your world it will start whispering in your ear to destroy yourself.
That is a powerful assessment of her view on death.
Death is just a way of life, to LBee. As she admitted to Lawrence, she was in "his country for two years and learned his rules, now she is more like him than herself now."
I love that thought.
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I definitely don't want to think about cake today. Val and I
pigged out Sunday, and I've been paying for it. :-X
MARIE, I didn't get the impression that Little Bee was 'playing
with Andrew's mind'. She was nervous and frightened, and seeing
Andrew's reaction to her appearance she hardly knew what to do.
Running back to her hiding place seemed natural to me. Yet, she
had to make contact so she tried again. I doubt she could have known
or understood how precarious Andrew's mental balance was at that
point.
We can’t just think of LB as a sweet, helpless teenager. She’s been through too much. I had to remind myself of that when she told Lawrence, “Please do not imagine I would forgive you, Lawrence. I would make sure I hurt you..” It took me by surprise. Then she adds, “I have been in your country two years , I learned your language and I learned your rules.”
This whole interview with Lawrence was harrowing. She tells us what Andrew was like at the end of his life. “He was angry all the time. He would not play with Charlie. When Sarah talked, he just shrugged his shoulders or shouted. But when he was alone he did not stop shrugging or shouting. He would stand all alone at the end of the garden and talk to himself, and sometimes he would shout at himself., or hit himself on the side of the head with his fist., like this. He cried a lot.”
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Babi,
The description of Andrew at the end is of a man who is in a deep depression and should have been hospitalized since he was a danger to himself.
Sara is so self involved nd still traumatized by what happened on the beach that she can't be the wife Andrew needs.
Both these people are fighting there own demons and have little energy left over for each others needs.
Sara puts any little thought she can spare into Charlie, who feels his parent's weknesses but can't understand them. He latches onto Batman as a source of goodness and hope. Batman fights the "baddies" and wins.
Batman has become a major figure of identification for many small children in America as well. Their powerlessness over their circumstances in life make Batman a source of goodness and strength. Someone who can prop them up when needed.
As far as Lawrence is concerned-Sara is using him as a comfort blanket. He can care for her in a way Andrew is no longer capable of because of his deep depression. To sit in judgement of her actions takes away from the power of the narrative.
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Are we on Chapters Six and Seven now?
Like a few of you posted, I have read through to the end but will refrain - restrain myself from posting further than assigned chapters; it spoils the conversation if one does, I know.
I don't know if Andy, Traude, posted this previously, but it is one of the author's notes. Take a look at the Facilities here and see if anything, ANYTHING, resembles Little Bee's experience at the detention center:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/aboutus/organisation/immigrationremovalcentres/
One comment Little Bee made concerning when she was a small girl and did not "miss having a future because I did not know I was entitled to one." She says she was very young then and looking back how often does a young child think like that? Doesn't ring true. When does a child become interested in a future?
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Babi~ MARIE, I didn't get the impression that Little Bee was 'playing
with Andrew's mind'.
I am not so sure I can agree with you Babi, she describes watching Andrew for days and knowing he was depressed and out of his mind. I for some reason can not give Little Bee the compassion the rest of you have for her. She seems very cold and calculated. I would be scared to death having someone like her in my home. She made it clear to Lawrence she would do what ever she had to do to stop anyone from sending her back to Nigeria. I sense danger here and I fear it is for Sarah, Lawrence and Charlie. I hope I am wrong, but even taking into account for her life experiences, tragedies, etc., I think those are even more-so the reason she could be dangerous if she felt threatened.
Andy~This quote I see more of a threat when she tells Lawrence....“I have been in your country two years , I learned your language and I learned your rules.” I hear she is saying, you better play by my rules or else I will blow you out of the water.
It seems our author has made each of our characters multidimensional, even to a point of contradictory to their words and actions. I must share that I read part of an interview Cleave had with a book club and he did tell them that Charlie is based on his own four yr. old who he watched and noted his obsession with Batman. Not unhealthy, just normal young child being a hero worshipper.
I don't think Cleave has given us enough to understand why Sarah chose to be unfaithful to Andrew. Why she says she could finally be herself and give all of herself with Lawrence. I suppose when any married person chooses to committ adultery they can find fault with their spouse to justify their own weaknesses and behavior. The whole scene on the floor/desk sex act just seemed so contrite for me. I read it and found myself going....Really??? Sarah seems shallow and impulsive to me, she seems to have relied on Andrew for her compass and strength and now that he is not there she seems to be too trusting and naive. I just would never let a stranger come into my home and get that close to my child under any circumstances.
Ciao for now~
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/littlebee/littlebeecvr.jpg) | January Book Club Online
"Little Bee"
by Chris Cleave
Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined.
In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion. |
Facts:
*Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960. Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens.
*Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world. Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high. There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse?
*The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called, to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense. |
Reading Schedule
January 2, Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9, Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16, Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31, Conclusions
Discussion Leaders: Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com ) and Andy (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
Ella, yes, we are trying to digest the enormities in Chapters Six and Seven now.
Thank you for the link on the Border Agency's Immigration Removal Centres in the UK. I read it several times. It is an orderly overview and sounds less grim than the reality of it might be. i
There is no mention whether men and women are housed in the same building(s) but separated in different wings for the night - which was LB's reported experience.
The list of available facilities is impressive :
a library, formal education classes, and on-the-job training (!) to prepare them for their return home,
and so are the photos.
We know that medical help was available at the fictional Black Hill Immigration detention center, a nurse, psychiatrists, volunteers, as LB told Sarah. And the repeated advice for her was "to move on" - while remaining locked up.
As for visiting a detainee : I wonder how many people avail themselves of that possibility ? Wouldn't they afraid to death?
As for returning to the homeland : I believe persons who are certain to be killed when they go back are not likely to turn themselves in and agree t return voluntarily. The only remaining option is enforced removal, aka deportation.
Sarah tells us that it did not take her long to discover that she and Andrew did not have much in common. He was always so certain, analytical, and had very firm opinions. Even though she argued and rebelled, she depended on his practical advice; perhaps she was a bit afraid of him.
She also says she lost interest (in Andrew) after Charlie was born. Could she have had post partum depression without knowing it ?
And then she met Lawrence. She fell into his arms like a ripe fruit. She began to need him, to adore him, thought she loved him. For six months she risked a scandal, appearing at parties and public functions with Lawrence, never once thinking of Lawrence's wife or children, but using every occasion to meet him duing the day and evening, as long as she could find a baby sitter for Charlie, while Andrew was working day and night on the special Times project.
But one night they met a party, with Lawrence making the introductions.
Andrew left home that night and did not come back for a week. Charlie, about two years old and not yet in his Batman persona, missed his father - Sarah pleaded and he agreed to return. That's when the idea was born that they'd take a beach holiday and patch up their marriage. And the choice was Nigeria.
By way of explanation Sarah says (in the middle of Chapter Four ) "That season in Nigera there was an oil war. Andrew and I hadn't known. The struggle was brief, confused, and scarcely reported. The British and Nigerian governments both deny to this day that it even took place. ..." (emphasis mine)
(Those who have the paperback, there's more on pg. 99.)
They came home, emotionally devastated. Andrew withdrew even more, Sarah was persuaded by Lawrence "to forget all about it". And the affair went on. Each had made their choice. We readers are the horrified bystanders, unable to intervene in any way. The story is gripping at this point.
Lawrence is a light-weight in every way, petty, jealous, Unlike Andrew, Lawrence has no opinions, certainly not the courage of opinions. Was Cleave possibly taking a stab at British civil servants ? He describes them as Sarah observes them that morning as they enter the Home Office building.
Lawrence is weaselly and a liar. He concocted the idea of the workshop ( 3 nights!) in Birmingham, even bought presents beforehand for his children - lest he forget later. Did his wife believe him ? Did she take a lover in revenge (as Sarah belatedly speculated) ? Had he walked out on Linda before?
We don't know.
And Sarah allowed him to stay, conditionally, one imagines. But in the marital bed ! A week after Andrew's death!
Now I need to find the passage where Sarah opines that adultery is not a major transgression ...
I could not disagree more.
Jude, of course it makes perfect sense that Charlie sought refuge in Batman and all he represented, and give him the power to poke for baddies in the garden, or swinging his toy golf club along the sidewalk, decapitating roses.
Next the struggle for Sarah's affection and Andrew's encounter with a ghost from the past.
He might well have experienced such an encounter many times in the past two years in his sleepless nights, a half empty bottle nearby and his daily Cipralex tablet.
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Well said, JUDE. You're right, Andrew and Sarah were both struggling so hard they were
unable to help each other. Ideally, they should have been able to support one another in
getting through that trauma, but apparently they had never built that kind of structure
in their marriage.
I had to smile at your image of Lawrence as a 'comfort blanket'. It fits!
Thanks for that link about the detention centers, ELLA. Little Bee's did have books and
classes, and provided basic medical care as needed.
I agree, TRAUDE, that Sarah's behavior after Andrew's death is unjustifiable. Sarah, however,
seems quite able to justify what she wants to do. It is a side of her character that does not
appeal. At the same time, there are facets to her that are appealing. So...what am I saying?
She's human, just like the rest of us?
And the Little Bee says of herself, “There is nowhere to go. I have discovered the person I am and I do not like her. I am the same as Andrew. I am the same as you. I tried to save myself.” Isn't it the most basic of human instincts, to try to save oneself? To be glad when
we survive? Yet we are ashamed when our actions betray that. What complicated creatures
we are.
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Babi, exactly.
Human frailty is responsible for all kinds of trespasses. According to the ancient saying : Errare humanum est , to err is human.
Minor and major misdeeds are committed all the time and - despite fervent promises that "it will never happen again"- are often repeated. Again. In sum, we all bear responsibility for our own conduct and must follow our own moral compass.
I belvie Chapter Seven is the most important in the story. We thought we knew all the "facts", the whole truth; we believed in the reliability of the narrators. So LB's confession that she had arrived at the house three days before the funeral, hid in the garden, watched Andrew (who did not play withCharlie), and eventually showed herself to him, is extraordinary.
Equally startling is the fact that she reveals all that to Lawrence, who is anything but an ally and will never be a friend.
In this chapter the author makes the dilemma of his characters the readers' own conundrum.
What would we do in such a life-and-death situation?
Aren't we expected to love our neighbors like ourselves?
Can we simply ignore and wish away what we don't want to worry about, like NIMBY for wind turbines?
I'd like to go into the conversation between LB and Lawrence. I'd love to hear Jude's assessment.
More later
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Well Straude you asked for my opinion and here it is.
First you suggest that we should love our neighbor like ourselves. What happens if you don't love yourself? Neither LB or Lawrence like themselves very much.
We know why LB is that way and she has good reason but the author gives us no background on Lawrence--something that might have turned this from an interesting book into a great one.
Why does Sarah chooses men like this?-Andrew , a depressive and a coward and a bit insane as well and Lawrence: a clever empty vessel. A person so shallow I fear he would drown in two inches of real sorrow. Again no background.
The confession of LB is the pivotal turning point of the story. It shows that LB has not emerged unscathed from the horrors she has experienced. Although these events have made her adult in some senses they have left her traumatized and childlike in other aspects of her development. Her Post Traumatic Stress is so severe that she may never be normal again.
This is so sad! Man's inhumanity to man and especially to young girls.
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BRAVO JUDES-your assessment was very well put forth and as I've said time and again throughout our read the atrocities that our fellow men subject others to are impossible to imagine. This is all so barbaric, heartless and vicious, it is difficult to endure.
There's that old saying that kept coming back to me as I reread those chapters. I don't know who "coined" the phrase but it is:
"the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".
How many times during this story could someone have stepped up to the plate?
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Jude, thank you for your assessment. Lacking your expertise, none of us could have formulated it so well. Your insights also address questions that have formed in our winds as we read together - and that's precisely what we expected. None of it could have been be articulated beforehand.
My questions in the previous posts were based on those Cleave seemed to be intimating, not my own. Even so, I believe the book is meant to be a wake-up call. It has attracted world-wide attention, and earlier today I read that Nicole Kidman and her production company have acquired the film rights to LB, in which Nicole K will play Sarah, starting next year (I think).
Man's inhumanity to man, indeed. None worse in human memory than the Holocaust. An unforgettable experience for those wo lived there at that time. as I did. This is not the time for my personal story, even though my experience has made me more responsive to the plight of the fictional LB, although the circumstances were altogether different.
Andy, life is transitory, and while we're here, we have to do good so that the good BEin the world.[/b]
Ny imporessions and related questions :
※ I do not believe LB could have been a physical danger to any one, in Kingston or anywhere else.
※ LB was a teenager, quite possibly having arrested personal and social development, as Jude suggested, how could she have known about depression or 'mind games' ? Can we even begin to imagine her upbringing?
A TV without innards; the same movie four or five years in a row, no sound but that of the generator.
※ Cleave is deliberately vague on the oil war, but there must be more than kernel of truth in what he said in this book. We might also consider the possibility that BP was facilitating the drilling in Nigeria all along.
※ How would you describe the "conversation" Lawrence had with LB the next morning ?
IMHO it was threatening, an amateurish attempt atf an (FBI) interrogation, which produced no result (other than LB's confession). What the reader clearly sees is Lawrence with his insecurities, vulnerability and utter emotional dependence on Sarah, plainly laid open.
But we cannot sympathize, we have no background and no idea of the root f the problem.
That is a flaw that must be attributed to the author.
Back tomorrow.
Traude
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I think that is a lovely assessment, Jude. An empty vessel is a good description of Lawrence.
All of the characters leave me feeling somewhat empty. Sarah, Andrew and Lawrence certainly. Batman is okay, but he is pretty young and unformed. Little Bee is the most accessible character. But even Little Bee confuses me. Sometimes she shrugs things off and sometimes she flashes temper. Her confession is a result of that temper. She is angry that Lawrence doesn't see her as a real person. This child has been through incredible horror. She has the right to be furious about so many things. And yet being ignored by empty old Lawrence enrages her.
To me the book seems very plot driven. The characters are instruments of the plot. I think this is a shame because it is easy to separate from the book because I am not invited in by the characters. I would like to feel the horror with Little Bee, the despair with Andrew, the confusion and terror with Sarah, the desperation with Lawrence, and the uncertainty with Batman. I don't need to like the characters, but I think the book would be stronger if they were more three dimensional.
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deems 2~ I completely agree with what you are saying. To me the book seems very plot driven.
I've been trying to put my finger on why I haven't been able to attach myself to any of these characters. They ALL are void IMO. Yes, all humans have character flaws, but I do feel Cleave has not allowed enough feelings to let the reader really root for one or more of the characters. Sure we all would like to see Little Bee get her papers and continue to live legally so she can have the life she wants and deserves to have. But other than that where do you see all of this going?
Sarah seems rather lost and empty now that Andrew is not here to make her decisions for her. Lawrence actually realizes she is now trying to get him to pick up where Andrew left off and tell her what to do. I respect the fact Lawrence advises her not to quit her job at this time. He says wait six months and see how you feel. He also is the voice of reason where it would seem natural for a loved one to voice their concern for someone making impulsive decisions and putting herself in harms way. Lawrence is right when he points out Sarah harboring a refugee is breaking the law and taking a risk of her own freedom. Prison could be the result of her actions.
Sarah's actions before the trip to Nigeria, on the beach, before Andrew's death and afterwards is impulsive. She acts before thinking things through. I'm not a big fan of Lawrence but I must say in these chapters he at least is thinking clear, and is very concerned for Sarah and Charlie, as well he should be.
Traude~ Nicole Kidman playing the role of Sarah sounds perfect. I wonder who could play Little Bee....maybe Dakota Fanning?
I'm off to finish the assigned chapters to see where this is going.
Ciao for now~
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I agree, Bellemarie, that is exactly what is wrong - the book is plot driven, and Cleave is determined to tell us what he wants to tell us, at the expense of credibility at times. Unfortunately this spoils the book for me.
I suppose Lawrence is really Mr Average UK, and as such the most believable character. The things he says and does make us dislike him - but at least we believe in him, we all (I expect) know people who would behave just like him; in fact I expect I would think along the same lines as him about Sarah having all these fanciful ideas of saving Little B from deportation. We've all said we loathe Lawrence - at least we feel something about him.
I have to add a tiny word about oil companies here - it might not have been BP! It could have been Shell or half a dozen others, I am not too sure who is most active in Nigeria. There are wars and atrocities going on in many places because of oil. It has been shown, I understand, that the terrible BP oil disaster in the US arose from cost cutting and mismanagement. Unfortunately, so long as people want cheap petrol these things are going to continue. Living in an oil city, I know many people who work for BP, Shell, etc, and I am 100% sure that they are horrified about these things - they are not bad people, they are decent hardworking people under pressure just like the rest of us to keep their jobs and do the best they can. I cannot answer for the top management - don't know any of them! - but the people lower down are all constantly pressurised to produce better results for less money. The shareholders also consistently press the companies for better income, and many of the big shareholders are pension funds - ie the companies that manage our private pensions, if we have them. They are under constant pressure to provide more income for their pensioners. So, IMO, there is no one person or company to be blamed for all of this - we all (and maybe especially the US) want cheap petrol, we all want better pensions, etc.
My husband left the oil industry to work in developing wave power. many of his colleagues said they really wished they could do the same thing, but they felt it was too much of a risk when they had young families to support, etc. He was lucky in that he has academic background in wave technology - and also in that we were prepared to take the risk (so far, so good!). However, that certainly does not absolve us from the collective blame - we are just as concerned about our pensions, the cost of food (which depends so much on the oil price), etc etc. I think we all have to look at our consciences here, because in the end does it not boil down to we in the west not being prepared to share our comfortable, secure lifestyle? I am just as guilty of this as the next person.
Rosemary
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I am having trouble letting go of thoughts about how many in this world, are living in a similiar situation to that of LB. Until reading this book, I heard about some of this, in the news. I really feel for the people who are living in chaos, or detention centers. I also wonder, how much I would be affected, if I were in that situation?
I am very glad that I am reading LB. This is one of those books which I doubt that I will ever be able to forget. It is changing my view of the world.
Sheila
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Hello all!
Reading all your analyses of the three grown ups, it seems to me that you don't like or admire or accept theirs behavior.
Who am I to judge anybody? In this case those three miserable people are each one captured in their narrow lives.
Sarah as a career woman, temporarily a housewife. Unsure of herself and her mission.
Andrew a journalist losing his engagement, feeling as a failure.
And Lawrence, the civil servant with no opinions outside his set of regulations. His crutches.
This is not an excuse for adultery, suicide or lack of civil courage. I don't think either me nor my wife would have excused such a behavior. So, by all means, I don't think you are bigot in any way. But if circumstances work against you, everything could happen.
And the only person whom is coming out of all this is as a better person in fact Sarah. But she has got a long way to go to become a full human being. In my opinion she has grown and wants to be a strong woman who can take her own decisions and decide what best for her an her boy. I think she will succeed.
:-*
Much about Sarah. Next time about Lil Bee and our guilt, neutrality or disinterest.
olle
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ROSEMARY, thank you for your last post. You gave me a lot of food for thought! My monthly income includes two pensions. Yet, I had never connected that my pension fund is invested in the oil industry.
In 1955 my husband was stationed in Saudi, Arabi. He sent home pictures to me, of people who had broken the law, having parts of their body cut off. They horrified me! Yet, that was a common practice there.,is it still?
I watched a program on Book TV from last weekend. The author of "Hero" was one of those interviewed. He talked quite a bit, about Lawrence of Arabi, who is the hero of the book. How L. was so disappointed by the UK's unwillingness to honor the commitments L. had made to the Arabs. Makes me want to know more, about the middle east from that time in history.
Sheila
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Ollie~ Hmmmm....so far I have not seen much growth in Sarah and I think that's what is bothering me where she is concerned, I am into chapter 8 and she is saying how much she misses Andrew because he pretty much guided her to make her decisions and now wants Andrew to do it for her. When she returned to work (which I believe was much too soon) she seemed hither skither, and kept expecting Clarissa to make the final decision on the refugee article as though Clarissa was her supervisor rather than subordinate. Clarissa treats Sarah almost as if she is a child, much like Andrew and Lawrence do, and strangely even Little Bee takes on the adult role with Charlie and Sarah seems perfectly comfortable allowing this total stranger, illegal refugee step into her spot. I think Clarissa's statement expresses my feelings best when she learns Lawrence has spent the night. Clarissa shivered. "I know. It's just a bit creepy, that's all. Sudden, I suppose I mean." Well it wasn't my idea, if you must know." "In which case, I revert to my original choice of word, Creepy."
Rosemary~ Thank you for the info and opinions on our dependence, comfort and cupability on oil. We all want the comforts from what oil brings to our lives, but when we read, hear or see instances such as these and the BP oil spill, we sort of want to look the other way. I am very good friends with many workers here in Ohio where there is a BP refinery. My friend Rick (yes the same one who says, "It's just a movie.") he was very worried about losing his enormous income when BP's reputation and stock was falling. Morally, I think all of our group of friends felt uncomfortable to even discuss the wrongdoing on BP's part. Yes, indeed it was caused due to trying to cut costs and poor management. Much like in this story, government didn't want to admit or deal with it at first. I think the frame of mind was, it will go away if we keep it out of the press. It reminded me of how they handled the Vietnam and Iraq wars, don't show the public the pictures so they can go on living in their comfy lives and the ugly realty can be denied. But the pictures began getting released, and much like this story, reality began hitting us in the face.
Shelia~ I'm with you, this story is awakening and will last with us long after some close the last page or others as myself shelve it in my Nook. But....much like Clarissa, I'm afraid we will react as she did, how can we make a difference in bringing it to the forefront when people want what sells......fashion, food, movies etc. things that keep us comfortable and can escape the harsh realities such as this.
Ciao for now~
l
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Excellent!, JUDE, about people who don't like themselves.
And this line, "A person so shallow I fear he would drown in two
inches of real sorrow." That is wonderful.
Traude mentioned your expertise, JUDE. What is your field? If
it's been posted before, I missed it, but you definitely have a
way with words.
In the midst of all these horrendous revelations, I felt that I didn’t want to know all that. I felt like an intruder, as though I was eavesdropping on something really private. Obviously, I was being
shoved out of my comfort zone. Probably good for me.
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Two days ago in my city at 1 a.m. in the morning a black man came to a few doors in a nice neighborhood; he was naked and bleeding and begging to be let in. He was refused at several and police were called. They didn't find him. The next day a blood trail led to a shed where the man lay dead from hypothermia; he was identified later as a person with bipolar and schzophrenic disorders. It is not a perfect world.
People are weak and fearful. Nigeria is a country being robbed of its resources, too weak to protest. The characters in the book all have flaws, I enjoyed reading a book that can be discussed in such detail and I will see the movie when it comes out. Kidman is a good choice.
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Character flaws in real life. I am reminded today of President Kennedy (see Google); a man who is honored for his charm, his speeches, his presidency. But we have to remember his mistakes, his weaknesses, his female associations - to put it mildly:
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2009/01/4-kennedys-failure-at-the-bay-of-pigs-top-10-mistakes-by-us-presidents/
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Oh hello to you all today. Your posts are wonderful and I don't know where to start. Plot driven story vs. character driven. I think we have both; Characters are central to this story and the events arise from the characters and their interactions, with one another.
In a plot driven story the intricacies of the plot are the most important aspect of the story and the characters are secondary. If that is true and characters act in accordance with the plot then what the heck is the plot? I think that is where I became confused. Aren't there elements of both?
In a character driven story why can't the characters be flat as long as they have enough traits to fulfill their function in this work? Dynamic vs. static characters? Now I'm really confused. I sure agree with Rosemary and bella that a three-dimensional developed characterization would be a heck of a lot better but----
Now this thought takes me (notice how my mind never stays put where it belongs) to the whole gist of this mess which is OIL EXPLORATION.
As we speak there is a growth trend in Nigereia with growing numbers of Wall Street pro talking up Africa as the next "great investment." Goldman Sachs asset-management chief, known for spotting opportunities in Brazil, Russia, China and India (the BRIC phenomena) declares that Africa has interesting potential. Even Walmart made a $4 billion dollar bid to buy So. Africa's Massmart. These investors are looking for these natural resources i.e. Africa which holds 40% of the world's strategic raw materials, such as gold, iron ore and OIL! Now China has tapped in and money is coming forth.
Guess which country gets the investors most excited? Yes, Nigeria. I don't see the "big boys" ever playing nice. They will mow down anyone who gets in the way, just as described in Little Bee.
I think we all have to look at our consciences here, because in the end does it not boil down to we in the west not being prepared to share our comfortable, secure lifestyle? I am just as guilty of this as the next person.
Well said Rosemary.
Back after water aerobics.
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Deems.
In answer to your question re: my background...
By profession I am a Psychotherapist. Last April I retired (finally).
Now my spare time is spent in writing..I had non fiction professional articles published while working but now I am trying to write some fiction. I also belong to the CA Poets Society for my little attempts at that genre.
Once you try writing on your own you learn how difficult it is to really accomplish something in that arena.
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Jude~ How exciting! I too am a writer and have been published in the Poet's Society. I have a few children's books I have written and hope to publish. I would love to find the time to write a novel but that is not likely for some time with owning my full time in home day care. Good luck to you on your venture into writing fiction, you've certainly got insight and a way with words.
So, without delay I will be the first to open the discussion about the trip to London and how Little Bee attempted to leave to begin her new life on her own. I was shocked to think she actually crossed the bridge, but in my own thoughts I did not see her actually leaving. Why does she see Lawrence as a threat, and why so much anger when she saw Sarah, Lawrence and Charlie together? He has not done anything to give me suspicions he would harm Sarah or Charlie. And now of all things chapter nine ends with Charlie missing. Oh my heavens, can anything more go wrong with this story?
I had such a difficult time reading how Charlie is afraid if he takes off his Batman costume his Daddy will be gone forever and then Little Bee tells him of the baddies inside her and that everyone has baddies inside of them. Now seriously, this is not something she had any right to tell Charlie knowing he has such fears as a four year old. Just the mention of monsters/baddies is going to stick in a child's mind. Charlie already was dealing with the baddies in his world outside his body, but now how does he deal with her telling him there are baddie inside his body. As my Italian Grandmother would say....Mama Mia!
Ciao for now~
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Good for you, JUDE. I believe you have the talent; all you need is a
compelling inspiration. :)
To divert a bit...It made my heart ache when Little Bee wrote of the tattered Bible in her village. The pages were missing after Matthew 24:46, so their Bible ended with “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” She says “We understood that this was the end of the story”. Quite outrageously, I found myself wanting to smack Chris Cleave for writing that.
Lawrence, commenting on the fact that most people aren’t interested in treading about the important issues of life, ”So people’s lives are hard enough. You can see how they might not want to be reminded that everyone else’s lives are shit too.” I hadn’t thought of it quite that way, though I should have. I quite understood that much of the pleasure of my reading was pure escapism, but I’m afraid I have tended to feel superior to people who read what I consider trashy magazines. Mea culpa.
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Babi- It always amazes me to read your selected quotes. Most of them are the exact ones that I've taken from the text, as well.
We must surely be on the same wave length. Oh boy, watch out. ;D
Most of my reading has always been escapism ever since I was a child too but now I find myself venturing and reaching into uncomfortable areas, like Little Bee.
Jude and Bella- I tip my hat to both of you. What you are doing takes such a huge commitment it has always frightened me away.
Bella- you ask Why does she see Lawrence as a threat, and why so much anger when she saw Sarah, Lawrence and Charlie together?
I am certain that she sees Lawrence as a threat because he has threatened her! He even reminded her that it was just a matter of time until they "come for her." He retreated some when LB threatened him back by her caution that she would tell Linda of his philandering.
As she witnessed them all together could she have been a bit angry because she had lost her family and Sarah still had her family? (of sorts)
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Andy~ I am certain that she sees Lawrence as a threat because he has threatened her!
The entire conversation that Lawrence and Little Bee had was about his concern for the fact Sarah was harboring an illegal refugee and what it would do to her life and yes, his. Lawrence says, "I've just admitted to you that I'd sell you down the river if I could. You're the brave little refugee girl, and I'm the selfish bastard. I think our roles here are pretty clearly delineated, don't you?"
Little Bee seemed as much of a threat when she responded, "Now you think I am a sweet little girl, do you? In your mind you still don't think I exist. It does not occur to you that I can be clever, like a white person. That I can be selfish, like a white person." I realized I was so angry I was shouting. "I left Sarah's husband hanging in the air," I said." Then she goes on to say, "I wanted to punish Andrew for letting my sister be killed."
For me, I see Little Bee more of a threat than Lawrence. Yes, I do think she is jealous of the love and happiness she sees Sarah has when she is with Lawrence and she wants to be the person there for Sarah. When she saw the three of them on the beach happy she realized she was not a part of it and that I think is what made her angry enough to leave. Little Bee has issues with men, and I think that is why she does not want Lawrence around Sarah. As she stated, "Maybe you are the kind of help that only arrives when it wants sexual intercourse." I sense Little Bee can not phantom a man loving a woman emotionally, she only sees them wanting the physical act. Her statement in judging Lawrence's feelings for Sarah comes from her only just meeting Sarah and Lawrence. "A wolf must be a wolf and a dog must be a dog." So are ALL men in Little Bee's eyes the same as the ones who raped and terroriszed her sister?
Ciao for now~
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We had more snow over night, and what remains of my grotesquely severed rhododendron is heavily weighted down.
Sorry to be late. Thank you for your comments posted both yesterday and today.
EWith respect, I am not yet ready for Chapter Nine, nor have we discussed Chapter Eight adequately enough IMHO.
First, a few responses to earler posts.
Re plot-driven.
Early in this discussion some of you remarked on the absence of a plot, and I answered at that time (and I paraphrase) "so far LB's journey IS the plot". Aa bit of a shift, then ? We can revisit this point when we sum things up.
We don't know whence Cleave's inspiration for this book came, but we do know that he worked as a volunteer in an immigration center for a year.
Yes, he is determined to bring home his point. Oil exploration and connneced violence, the exploitation and safety of oil workers are hot-button issues. We see and read about it every day from all parts of the world. Indifference is widespread, and its best spokesma in this story is Lawrence.
Immigration, especially the illegal kind, is intricately linked, but right now I'd like to talk about characters a little more.
Take Sarah, founder with Clarissa of her own fashion magazine, deliberately pandering to sexual phantasies, a magaine she calls edgy, brazen and successful in an earlier chapter.
In Chapter Eight sh tells us why they named it Nixie, what they meant by it, and at the same time she questions whether it is really all worth while, even proposing a lead article about female asylum seekers (!). for the July issue.
Clarissa's reaction is predictable - though likely true.
"... Your're the boss. Of course I'll get you a feature on refugees if you really want it. But I really don't understand how quickly people's eyes will glaze over.It isn't an issue that affects anyone's own life..."
Exactly.
Fewer readers, less happiness at the cash register. Not advisable. The gospel of Lawrence.
Who threatens whom is in the eye of the beholder/reader. I agree with Andy.
This whole exercise, the conversation in the kitchen between LB and Lawrence was a shake-down.
To do that without Sarah being present was underhanded, to say the very least. LB was not his problem; he was not the master of the house, he was not the husband but the paramour, and his concern for Sarah did not give him the right to take matters into his own hand, which was a betrayal of Sarah - not an act of love.
He badgered LBrelentlessly, he threatened her with exposure, he explained the rules about refugees. When she said : "I have been in your country for two years. I know your rules." (emphasis mine) Bellamarie read this as "I know your rules."
But LB had no rules of her own, how could she ?
As I said before, I do not believe she would ever have been a danger to Sarah or Charlie and will say no more about this aspect.'
In despair she told Lawrence the story of Andrew's last days. Lawrence realized it as crucial information. But he acted right then, it would unravel the whole ball of wool, reveal the affair with Sarah, ruin his career, destroy his marriage to Linda. In the end hry agreed to not mention any of this to Sarah. Another betrayal.
Sheila, I am so glad you do not regret reading the book, neither do I. LB's story tugged at my heart strings, especially as she described the agonizingly slow killing of her sister. The hinted-at cannibalism made me shudder.
Tre's be more; I'm working on other responses.
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Traude~ "Who threatens whom is in the eye of the beholder/reader."
Well said Traude, and I think in this case I must agree to disagree with Lawrence being the only threat, and Little Bee being the victim. I have not read ahead so I will have to wait and see if my suspicions hold true. I for some reason have not been able to feel compassion for Little Bee. She is very cunning and yes, she is betraying Sarah by not telling her she came before Andrew's suicide, and that she actually was there, saw it all and did nothing to help him. That for me is the ultimate betrayal. How will Sarah react if and when this is finally revealed? Sarah has put her complete trust in Little Bee, she gave her finger to save her life, at the least she deserves to not be lied to. Little Bee began her betrayal to Sarah long before Lawrence came to her home.
Just knowing the two of them are deceiving Sarah upsets me, regardless of their reasons. Sorry if I seem to keep addressing this, for some reason I can't get past this whole plot of deception.
Ciao for now~
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Correction. A word missing from the second sentence in the penultimate paragraph of my earlier post. The sentence should read "But had he acted ... etc.
Now to finish my thoughts on Sarah.
Both she and Andrew were unable to forget the horror that had shaken their lives to the foundation. The depth and seriousness of Andrew's depression totally eluded Sarah, whose attempt to forget were similarly unsuccessful. Her reconstructed existence crashed with Andrew's unexpected death and LB's appearance at the house on the day of the funeral. She did what was nrequired, automatically, in a mental and emotional void, not able to mourn, not even cry.
Slowly, when LB began her story, part of Sarah's memory of that fateful day returned, and with it a new consciousness, and the feeling of responsibility for LB. Her plans to hunt down LB's non-existent papers and caseworker were as unrealistic as the idea to hire a solicitor to file an appeal when no charge had even been brought. Sarah was in no condition to pick up at the magazine where she had left off.
Babi, yes, it's well worth turning back to the earlier chapters; there are many lovely thoughts exquisitely formulated. Thank you for those you quoted.
Wonderful to hear of your writing , Jude, and Bellamarie. Self-publishing has become very popular in recent years and the way to go for those who don't have an agent.
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It is the middle of the night, here at my home. I just finished our book. As I have said before, I almost stopped reading after Chapters 1 & 2. Tonight, I am so very glad that I kept going. From the begining I was drawn to Sara. By the middle of the book, I was attached to LB. In addition, I felt that Batman was adorable and loveable.
IMO, both Sara and Lawrence were equally dependent upon the other. I am under the iimpression that Lawrence showed more emotion to Sara, than Andrew ever had. Other than depression, I do not remember it was never mentioned that Andrew showed any emotion. If I am in a relationship with a man, I want him to show me his emotional side.
I loved the relationship that LB had with Batman. They seem to have really bonded with each other. It was beautiful. I found it wonderful that Charlie was allowed to BE Batman, so much of the time. I also was unhappy with how little emotional energy both Andrew and Sara seemed to have invested in their child. Often he was with other care givers both day and night.
It seems to me that it was foolish, for Sara, LB and Charlie to be on the beach in Nigeria. It was a similiar foolishness to the time Andrew and Sarah did the same thing.
Time for bed now. More tomorrow.
Sheila
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ALF, it's a pleasure to be on a wave length with you. If we could
meet we would probably be constantly interrupting one another with
"Oh, yes! Isn't that...."
So are ALL men in Little Bee's eyes the same as the ones who raped and terrorized her sister?
BELLAMARIE
I would think, under those circumstances, it would be hard not
to regard all male strangers with fear and anger. Little Bee
must have some good memories of the men of her family and village,
but they may be the only ones she could trust now. It would surely
take a long acquaintance to allow her to wholly trust men now.
TRAUDE, don't you think that all men who love or 'possess' a woman
feel, to some degree, that they take on the role of protector. It
seems to be a very deep instinct in human nature. Men who lack it
seem to become predators and abusers instead. Perhaps I am
over-generalizing, but I can't see Lawrence's protectiveness as a
betrayal of Sarah's rights. Somewhat officious, perhaps.
SHEILA, thank you for bringing up the bond between LB and Charlie.
That was, I believe, a great comfort to them both and needed to be
recognized.
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BABI, far and away (so far away that I've only dated 2 men in my life and one was my husband of 54 years) from being any kind of an expert on men, I agree with you when you stated: "all men who love or 'possess' a woman
feel, to some degree, that they take on the role of protector. It seems to be a very deep instinct in human nature.
However, I have no opinion on those who do not as being abusers, but that's an interesting observation!
How do the rest of you feel about this issue?
LB said to herself - "there is no them. This endless procession of people, walking along beside this great tiver, these people are you." I loved that - there is no "them." But, of course, she was wrong.
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Sheila, thank you very much for your post. You expressed exactly what I felt all along.
Babi, I understand your point. It's just that in this case, I believe, Lawrence was protecting not only Sarah but himself, for all the reasons stated on page 195, Chapter Seven. But trying to take action without telling Sarah is dishonest. The most benevolent thing he says to LB is "I wish I could just make you disappear".
In London by the Thames, LB and Lawrence are again alone for a few minutes, and he begs her again to go away - even offers her money. "You offer me Money to go away ?" is all she says. Then she asks for the names of his wife and children. The reader sees the children's names for the first time.
"Sonia, Stephen. And Simon's the - hm - the baby ...", he says (a baby conceived during the affair) "You should go back to them" , LB says quietly. Lawrence looks at her, his eyes expressionless. But the handwriting is clearly on the wall.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the rapidly unfolding events.
Thank you.
Traude
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'Sheila
I too agree with your opinions.Thank you.
Now I want to bring up the fact that a certain part of the New testament is mentioned. I think Cleave is a clever writer and there had to be more to this so I went to the Book of Mathew as it appears in the Bible I own (There are different translations I know) and Chapter Six ends in this way:
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own".
Chapter Seven begins: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
The exact part mentioned Mathew 27:46 "My God,myGod, why have you forsaken me". would be in my mind if I was LB's sister being raped, tortured and killed by the men. I was close to tears as that scene was brought to mind because of these words.
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Ella, indeed, the protective instinct is one men share (and should all possess). When there isn't sufficient emotional support from either spouse, or if expressions of tenderness and affection are lacking, a marriage can falter. I saw it happen with my parents. Their marriage ended with my father's death, but it was over years before.
Since then enormous societal changes have brought a very different concept and dynamic to traditional relationships. With the women's liberation movement there came more recognition for women in careers, some have broken through the glass ceiling, but there still is no full pay equity. Over he years came more changes of a different sort, not all to my liking - if I may say. But that is another story.
Sheila, yTrue, Andrew did not show any affection for Sarah. He talked down to her, ridiculed her career efforts and told her to grow up. He lectured her. They had loud arguments. And the f-word became relentlessly automatic. No wonder Charlie found his model in the world of Batman and Robin!
Words can inflict as much pain as a knife. And I believe that it is important not only what we say but how we say it. "The tone makes the music."
At this point in the story, Sarah has decided to throw in her lot with Lawrence ("I've a son to raise". ) She's made another decision, but she has no chance telling what it is, because Charlie has disappeared. We are ready for Chapter Ten.
Andy, I'd like to reply belatedlyto an earlier post of yours talking about the inequalities and injustice in the world. I agree with you. We cannot always help directly. But I feel strongly that we should return kindnesses shown to us, not necessarily to those who extended them, but in order to do good so that it BE in he world.
Jude,, special thanks for quoting from Matthew's gospel. The images Cleave evokes in context are deeply moving. A tattered bible, pages missing, the story unfinished, are all that is left after the missionaries went home. But their efforts must have been valiant. In he hour of her need, Nkiruka sang out hymns that they'd been taught as children. The writing is beautiful.
Good night.
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Jude~ Yes, it is interesting how Cleave has used scripture, but as I see it, God did not forsake Jesus, for he was one in the same, and Nikuria was such a faithfilled girl amazingly so I might add, that even in those last minutes of rape and torture she clung to her belief that her God was with her and would receive her in his loving arms. For me, that was powerful and brought tears to my eyes. I could only imagine having that much faith and love of God. Nikuria's faith described in this book probably so far is the most emotional attachment I have felt. If I had one character that has truly touched me, it would be Nikuria for her strong faith. Its interesting how Cleave gave Nikuria so much faith and yet Little Bee seems to have none.
Shelia~It seems to me that it was foolish, for Sara, LB and Charlie to be on the beach in Nigeria. It was a similar foolishness to the time Andrew and Sarah did the same thing.
Hmmm...I haven't gotten that far so I had no idea Sara, LB and Charlie end up on the beach in Nigeria. I had to read that a few times before realizing what it meant.
On the topic of men loving, possessing and protecting, I think it is human nature for anyone who loves someone to want to protect them (male or female), but possessing I don't see as healthy, and I don't see Lawrence possessing Sarah. I see Lawrence seeing Little Bee as a threat not only to Sarah and Charlie but also to his relationship with Sarah. He already sees Sarah making risky decisions just by taking her into her home. Lawrence is obviously no saint, but IMO, all his points for wanting Little Bee to leave are valid.
I'm off to read this week's chapters.
Ciao for now~
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Oh, yes, TRAUDE. I wholly agree there. Lawrence's protectiveness
was not purely for Sarah; he was concerned for himself, too. My
comment was simply that I could not see his actions as a betrayalof Sarah. She was, I believe, able to look after herself well
enough, but that doesn't usually stop people who love you from
sticking their oars in, too. My grown children are perfectly
well able to look after themselves, but they don't always do so
to my satisfaction. :)
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Hi!
I will not try to defend Sarah, Andrew and Lawrence. They are all disappointed with their lives, careers and the way they are as persons.
I think they (in a way) are models for the western type of educated (quite normal, competitive) people.
Contrary from the Africans living in small villages, with their background and living standard, where every day is a struggle for life. A kind of life that we hardly can understand or visualize.
And that's the plot; LB is the (reminding) person who is meant to point out the reality of the third worlds fight.
Can we ever understand it fully? And what can we do as private persons? As Cain says: "Am I my brothers keeper?”
I'm not a religious man, but i can't help finding a religious undertone in this novel.
LB's love/gratefulness for Sarah and Charlie is so big that she is willing to risk her own security, in fact her life, for helping them.
As one of you said: "love thy neighbor" and LB showed that she's ready to sacrifice herself for them.
I think that LB has given up or accepted her fate.
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Sheila- Your sensitivities to each of the characters gladdens my heart. :) Isn’t it wonderful when we find ourselves vicariously drawn into other’s lives to the point of experiencing genuine fondness for them?
As far as Lawrence emoting, he certainly displayed a strong response when they argued after her adultery was revealed. He was mad as a wet hen but other than that, No, I think he lived in a depressed, saddened state most of the time.
Actually now that I think about it, I am feeling some genuine concern and distress for Sarah. It is difficult to be in a marriage where it is all one sided, emotionally. One hears the echoes of silence and "feel" the absence of emotions and sensitivities. It is a barrier and a hindrance if you are the partner struggling to exist in a marriage like theirs. It can only lead to an unhappy ending- of that I can attest.
Ella- In regard to man’s instinctive right to be protective I was going to argue that case and believe it or not while writing my rebuttal, I convinced myself that you are absolutely correct. When I saw the word abuser, it derailed me. I wasn’t even thinking of the multiple verbal attacks that are now classified as “abuse.”
Traude summed that up with “The tone makes the music.”” Oh yes!
Babi- we have met!! I think it was in DC when we first met- maybe the Isle of Palms. I can’t remember when it was. Isn’t it such fun though when you spend time with someone and you can’t wait until your next discussion? Oh, how I miss that with friends.
Traude- I loved that when Lbee asked Lawrence the names of his children. It was a subtle reminder that he didn’t belong in Sarah’s life and it could be construed as a threat, as well. Subtle, yes, but it was there.
JudeS- I agree that the biblical verses are skillfully placed throughout this entire novel and I felt myself reflecting on how incredibly it is that the Bible continues to guide us, even through death and destruction. Good for you to pick up on those applicable verses. Do you think our author is a spiritual man?
Keep your fingers crossed, my computer is acting very strange Traude. When I first boot it up, it shuts itself off. It took me three reboots today. If anything happens I will let you know. X X fingers crossed.
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Olle- Good morning to you. I'm sorry we were posting at the same time and I missed your post. I echo your thoughts here.
I'm not a religious man, but i can't help finding a religious undertone in this novel
.
That is a very astute thought that the plot is to remind us through LittleBee what the third world countries endure daily. In the western world, as you said, one has a tendency to get caught up in the "material", object oriented, tangible things in life. We live in such a high tech competitive environment we chase our tails all of the time, round and round we go and yet we always come back to meet "ourselves."
You ask:
Can we ever understand it fully? And what can we do as private persons? As Cain says: "Am I my brothers keeper?”
IMO we must try and yes, I am my brother's keeper, if he will allow it.
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Good Sunday morning!
Andy, not to worry. Good luck with the computer ! I'll be here, have no plans to go anywhere. On Tuesday, the local book group will come here. We have shivered through extremely cold nights (11° last night), and worse is to come.
I am so very grateful to all of you for being here and sharing this extraordinary book. I just finished it for the second time. My heart is too full for words now. Of course I will be back online later in the day. Many thanks, Andy, Babi, Olle.
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Traude- Which book is your group reading this month? I was pleased to see you in the Classic book selection for February. I'll be dragging my feet, I'm sure, but I will give it a shot.
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Andy, we are reading Year of Wonders by Geraldine Brooks, a historical novel about the 1666 outbreak of the plague in Eyam, a small village in Derbyshire, which quarantined itself to avoid further spreading.
We read Geraldine Brooks' last novel here, People of the Book.
Year of Wonders was her first historical novel. She started out as a journalist and foreign correspondent for the Wall Street Journal.
Oh yes, the classics project is exciting and I'm anxious to see what be the final selection will be.
In our schools in my time there were no electives, all were required subjects, including Latin. I loved it. Here we'll be reading English translations of the text. It will be fun, I'm sure.
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I just finished the book and find myself feeling exactly the way Cleave says a reader said to him after she finishes his books.
Cleave said, "I was talking with a reader once who said that my novels tended to leave her with "a stone in [her] shoe," and I suppose that might be the effect I'm aiming for. Not that I want the stone to be uncomfortable for you, mind. Just that I want the character to stay with you, and I don't think that happens by tying off the ending neatly.
Lots to talk about in the last chapters, just gonna go process it for awhile first.
Ciao now~
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/littlebee/littlebeecvr.jpg) | January Book Club Online
"Little Bee"
by Chris Cleave
Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined.
In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion. |
Facts:
*Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960. Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens.
*Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world. Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high. There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse?
*The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called, to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense. |
Reading Schedule
January 2, Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9, Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16, Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31, Conclusions
Discussion Leaders: Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com ) and Andy (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
Hi All,
I've just been trying to catch up after a night in Edinburgh (again). I thought you might be interested in a book that I picked up at the library - Voice of America by EC Osundu. He is a Nigerian writer and a teacher at Providence College in Rhode Island. The book is his first collection of short stories - they are all about Nigerians, some in the USA and some in Nigeria; they tell you a lot about Nigerian society and beliefs, and perhaps fill in some of the background for Little Bee.
Rosemary
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Rosemary, I can imagine your house hunt very well. Years ago I was in the same boat when my husband's company transferred him to Massachusetts.
He and and three colleagues left right away, the company rented a house for them near the company's quarters and hired a real estate agent to assist in finding housing here.
The wives were given two paid visits up to meet with the real estate agent individually. Nothing was suitable. During a third visit we found a house. The company sent packers and moved us.
I was heartbroken. Good luck to you.
Bellamarie, Cleave's answer to a reader who asked why he wrote th book, or what effect he was seeking, reminds me of the saying Comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable, wich is attributed to Finley Peter Dunne, 1867-1936, an American writer and humorist based in Chicago.
It's not so hard to guess why he wrote the book, now it's up to us to say what it meant to us.
Andy, I just saw the decision in the classics book club. Yippee !
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Here's hoping I will be here in the morning if this thing boots up.
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Oh Andy, please.....you can't possibly leave us now. I will pray your computer will be up and running smoothly in the morning. I hope you have not gotten a virus, which is what it sounds like. I got one a few months back and not to depress you, but it cost me $250.00 to get it fixed and it took me a week without it. Luckily I had an old desktop that runs as slow as molasses in January..he he he he does anyone use that any more, anyway...it worked til I got my laptop back.
More in the morning.
Ciao for now~
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Good morning!
Andy, here's hoping your computer responded!
We are in the deep freeze here, -1° F. Brrr Must make more coffee....
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Traude, not sure where you are in the country, but I am in Ohio and last night we went down to -4. I am beginning to think spring!
So I have the book on my nook and realized in the very back there is an interview that Cleave has with some book club members and he also gives us the insight as to his reason for writing the book etc. Does everyone have that in their book? I would imagine so. It's very interesting and would like to discuss it after we take on the last chapters of the book this week. Okay, more coffee sounds good to me too so be back later......
Andy~I'm praying we see you today.
Ciao for now~
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ALF, it was DC, and that was a long time ago. We barely knew
each other then, and didn't have the time to discover how much
we had in common. Other, of course, than the love of books.
That 'if he will allow it' is an important reservation to the
idea of being one's brother's 'keeper'. My answer to that question
has always been, "No, I'm not my brother's keeper. But I am my
brother's brother"(or sister).
We tend to forget that those words were Cain's, not God's. And you
will notice God did not dignify them with an answer.
Such a disappointing ending. That long description of LB slowly waking up on the beach. Did anyone else find that tedious?
I was most disappointed at the entire ending. I found it unbelievable. Did the Nigerian government so fear one teen-age girl that they keep a guard on her night and day and send a half-dozen soldiers to hunt her down? Would a soldier start firing a rifle at a 4-yr. old running down the beach?! I don’t think so. The whole thing felt so contrived.
There had been hints that there might be a place for Little Bee in Abuja. That she could find work, a niche, a way to make a life there. I don’t understand Cleave’s decision to go the other way. I wasn’t expecting a ‘happy ending’, but I did expect a chance to make a new life.
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Well here I am, for the time being anyway. I don't think it's a virus Bella, I think the fan has been working too hard and--- well who knows. I just defraged again, did a disc cleanup, etc and the proof will be when I try to reboot. I'm going to keep this puppy running until I can get back in here. I just returned from aerobics and need to eat before I continue my trek with LBee.
Babi- Yes, I thought that it was DC. Maybe we shall both be fortunate to meet up again at one of our "gatherings." I'd love to have one in Texas.
I'll be back soon. (I hope)
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Bellamarie,
At the end of the book, the paperback has
Notes
Acknowledgements
About the Autho
A tw0-paragraph synopsis on
11 Discussion Quesions
Enhancing Your Book Club
and
Author Q and A - 10 questions for the author and is answers to same.
Is that what you were referring to? If so, which Qs would oo like to discuss ?
Babi, o I understand. Somewhat of a shock, for sure.
It may seem rushed to some, and perhaps it was.
However, the stark reality was always in plain view. The outcome could never have been different.
I had an emergency in the house this morning and am expecting a repair man soon. I'll be back
as soon as I can for more on the ending.
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Babi~ You have expressed all my exact thoughts to the ending. It is so unbelievable, first off...Lawrence found out what flight Little Bee would be on and so Sarah brings her four year old son along to escort Little Bee back to a hostile nation. REALLY? Lawrence was a part of harboring an illegal refugee, yet no charges were brought against him or Sarah, and they would give him access to that information. Hmm....REALLY?? Then they allow the three of them to remain in a hotel for how long? Sarah bribing the guard so they could come and go as they please...REALLY? Throughout the book I saw Sarah as an impulsive person who relied on others to lead her in life and care for her son, but to return to the very beach where such horrible acts occurred with her son was too much for me to accept. The entire beach scene in the end for me was as you said Babi, contrite, but more so for me it was unbelievable. Seems our author wanted to wrap it up and didn't have a real believable ending so he leaves it hanging.
Cleave said in his interview he would like it if the reader did not like Sarah. Well, its not about liking or disliking her...its about did he make his story believable to the reader. For me the answer is NO! I asked early on where did we see this story going? Well, Cleave left the ending to be determined by the reader, so my conclusion is, Little Bee was taken into custody, placed in a detention center, Sarah and Charlie returned home, she wrote her book and continued her affair with Lawrence. Since I did not see any true maturity or growth in her character I could actually see her going back and asking for her job back. She did make a haste decision and had second thoughts even about that.
Cleave said, he was inspired to write the book "from a story of Manuel Bravo, a refugee from Angola. In 2001 an Angolan man named Manuel Bravo fled to England and claimed asylum on the grounds that he and his family would be persecuted and killed if they were returned to Angola. He lived in a state of uncertainty for four years pending a decision on his application. Then, without warning, in September 2005 Manuel Bravo and his 13-year-old son were seized in a dawn raid and interned at an Immigration Removal Centre in southern England. They were told that they would be forcibly deported to Angola the next morning. That night, Manuel Bravo took his own life by hanging himself in a stairwell. His son was awoken in his cell and told the news. What had happened was that Manuel Bravo, aware of a rule under which unaccompanied minors cannot be deported from the UK, had taken his own life in order to save the life of his son."
So, my question is this, Is it a law in the UK that when accompanied by an English woman/reporter, (although she had NO credentials as a reporter since she no longer worked at the magazine,) a Nigerian refugee who fled the country, can not be taken and placed in an Immigration Centre immediately once they land on Nigerian soil considering she was a flight risk and the woman who harbored her was with her? Or is that part of the fictitious story? Because as soon as Sarah showed up on the plane with Charlie I was done with this story. No mother in her right mind would bring her child to a country of such hostility. Her excuse for going with Andrew was she wasn't aware of the oil war, well she knew of it now, and yet she brings Charlie along. Unbelievable!
I guess Cleave felt we needed for Charlie to finally take off the Batman costume so we have Little Bee finally telling him her real name. Wow if that's all it took then why didn't she tell him days ago? Again, unbelievable! So, he runs off into the sun playing with the Nigerian children, globalization is the theme and all is well with the world. Unbelievable, but what I can believe is each and everyone one of us can take from this book the fact that there is danger in these countries, it would do us good to heed the news, don't put yourself or your loved ones in the danger by visiting hostile nations, and do your part whatever it is to help, even if its in praying for globalization. I believe oil will continue to dominate the world and the wars will continue to be fought for the power and riches oil brings to nations. Governments will continue to cover up the real horror of the treatment of those who gain the knowledge of such horrific acts such as what took place in Little Bee's town and in the detention centres. So I welcome the authors and reporters who are willing to bring these issues to the forefront with hope that one day one person, or one book will make a difference in some way.
Okay...I hear my friend Rick saying, "It's just a story Marie, it's just a story." lol
I am anxious to hear everyone else's views.
Ciao for now~
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The ending of this book is very sad. In Africa (and elsewhere) there are many , many victims of injustice. The author tried very hard not to be too didactic but he was. However it is a story that needed to be told and Cleave really worked hard at trying to hold our interest throughout.
If anyone is interested in the issue of African children trying to get out of Africa I would like to suggest a fascinating movie called "Live and Become". It is a joint French\Israeli film about a nine year old Ethiopian boy who is living in a refugee camp in Ethiopia where there is a chance of being allowed into israel as a "Falasha Jew" (one of the lost tribes of Israel). The scenes in the refugee camp are a sight you will never forget.. The boy poses as a Jew and grows up in Israel but the problems he faces as he becomes an adult tore my heart to pieces. I wept and wept. When he returns to the camp as an adult the story is even harsher.
Thousands of Africans (not Jews) WALK from Africa through Sinai to slip into Israel. The numbers are staggering. The ones from Sudan voted for an independent Southern Sucdan but when asked if they would return they said they like it in Israel and want their children to become citizens there.
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Jude~ Indeed the ending is sad, but it was predictable. How else did anyone see this ending differently? I think Little Bee told us how it would all end many times throughout the book. I found this interesting in the q & a in the back of the book.
Q: Throughout the book, Little Bee was alert to her surroundings and imagined how she would kill herself, should the men come. At the end of the book, when the men finally came for Little Bee on the beach, why didn't she try to kill herself?
A: Cleave.."I think by the end of the novel she'd become much stronger. She'd gone through that post traumatic stage characterized by persistent thoughts of suicide, and she'd come out at the other end as a tougher cookie. I was interested to explore this idea that suicidal thoughts might be part of a process in which she took back control of her destiny. In choosing not to succumb to the suicidal impulse, she became the master of her situation again. In her own words, she had "killed herself back to life."
I thought when reading the ending on the beach Little Bee would in fact walk off into the water showing she chose her own destiny. But then how could she do that and still be able to have the final scene with Charlie taking off his costume? Once that scene became a part of the story there is no way she could commit suicide with Charlie watching. Her revealing her true name was IMO Little Bee finally accepting who she was, no more Queen Elizabeth voices imagining it would make her fit into a world she knew she would never belong to. Or who knows...maybe Cleave just needed to get Charlie out of that Batman costume to show he would be okay being Charlie. Food for thought.
Thank you Jude for suggesting the movie. I don't think I am up to a tearful movie at this time, just watching the nightly news every day is dismal with all the talk of illegal immigrants, the dangers in Mexico etc., etc. The Diary of Ann Frank was probably my first introduction to the cruelty of concentration camps and then the Holocaust was my reality that shook me to the core. I can not bring myself to watch anymore movies dealing with such atrocities.
Ciao for now~
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hi there
just a short post to say have been following the comments and finding all the input so interesting
am being knocked off the computer when have a bit composed so finding it very frustrating
have so many tabbed pages in my book that caught my interest; felt like we were skipping double dutch rope and couldn't quite jump in with my comments.....was like this as a student as well way back when so don't think this is a reflection on the going ons...just know I am here and appreciate being a part even though a silent part of this group
thank you
Deb
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The emergency is over and I'm back.
Andy, before I get into my answers, I wanted to say how glad I was to see you on line -- later in the day. I did not see the your post when when I posted this morning in haste. Good luck in finding the cause of the problem.
Your posts are greatly appreciated. I will respond as best to the last I've read.
With respect to the disappointment, disbelief or incredulity about the ending, let me say that only those who have lived under a dictatorial system can really understand situations like this. Whether we take notice or not, killing and strife go on eg. in the former Belgian Congo and in Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe - to name just two African co.untries.
Both independent autonomous nations and operate by their own laws.
Babi,
Little Bee was deported to her native country, Nigeria, by the British because she had entered the country illegally = without papers. She was in default of the rules. She was a drain on the economy. She did not belong; so said the officer at Heathrow.
Except for the presence of Sarah and little Charlie, the Nigerian authorities could and would have seized LBimmediately on arrival in Ajubam, the capital. Sarah knew that. They retreatred to a hotel. Of course they were watched ! Under comparable circumstances, wouldn't the FBI or CIA, or both, have kept close tabs too? This one had the clear markings of a cause célèbre. So the three of them were hunted.
Sarah, passionately motivated, did not realize how tenuous her plan was when she suggested gathering stories similar to LB's. The idea as to present them with Andrew's detailed documentation in an effort to make a case for LB. But to what court ? She had not been indicted.
The soldiers on the beach fired into the sand, but if LB had not run toward Charlie, crying
I'm the one you want ..., they might have aimed at Charlie.
Under their law, they might even have been justified.
Bellamarie, yes, we knoww, Lawrence found out where LB was held before deportation and what flight she'd be on. He was not a totally bad guy, after all. But he's no longer in the picture. Nor do we learn whether he was going to be in Sarah's life when everything was over.
Well, Sarah didn't want to be separated from Charlie again and took him along to Ajuba. Foolish?
Perhaps. Unbelievable.? Not necessarily,
Whatever we think and feel, we didn't write the story, Cleave did. We can accept it or denounce it, but IMO it's a call to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.=
To Jude, thank you.
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Traude~ Cleave said, "I wanted to leave the story open-ended." In doing so he left the ending hanging for the reader to conclude, each one in what ever way they individually would end it. I chose to keep Lawrence in Sarah's life, since she seemed to not be able to make life choices by herself. And yes, Sarah said to Little Bee on the plane about Lawrence, "He's not entirely bad, at the end of the day." So that is why I see her returning to him in my ending.
My point in Lawrence finding out what flight Little Bee was on was that I could not imagine that really happening, since the authorities knew he was cupable for helping in harboring her. In all reality, he would have been fired and charged along with Sarah. So if Cleave would have kept it believable, Sarah would never have gotten on the plane to accompany Little Bee to Nigeria, she would have been charged and not able to leave the country. If Sarah did not want to leave Charlie, then she was indeed putting him in harm's way, so much so he is being shot at on the beach. Sarah never really thought through too much in the story, she did what she wanted, when she wanted, how and where and did not give much thought for the others around her. She saved Little Bee's life in cutting off her finger, but ultimately in the end, taking her to the beach was putting Little Bee's chances of being saved at risk, since it looked as though they were trying to flee once again.
Each person individually can conclude what was believeable or not for them. There are too many discrepancies, IMO, in those last pages for me to find any of it believable. It does not mean I did not like the book, I personally, was just disappointed.
Deb~ Please join in, its always so nice to hear others views.
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It is a tenuous situation while my computer is undergoing the exorcism but I am here for the time being. ::)
Bella and all: I agree that the ending was foretold by the story itself. LittleBee was and would have remained an illegal, without any papers. There was no way for her to become a part of Sarah's life there in the UK. She would be unable to disappear into the human race there as simply as a bee vanishes into the hive.
(I love that statement- it summed everything up for me)
Ergo, Cleave had to return hersomehow back to her native country of Nigeria where she fundamentally and legally belonged.
I agree with you Marie, I think that she had passed the stage of “how will I kill myself”. (She shows the most growth of character , IMO, than all of the other characters.)
I, too, thought about LBee walking off forever into the water as you did Bella. In fact when I read that, I thought Oh no, not after all she’s had to endure. I don't think that she went into that water with any thoughts of suicide I believe that she was solely immersing herself into the memory of her sister.
My point in Lawrence finding out what flight Little Bee was on was that I could not imagine that really happening, since the authorities knew he was culpable for helping in harboring her.
I don’t believe that Lawrence would have told the authorities of his being complicit in knowing of lBee's illegal status. Why would he have? He would have been charged or worse- lose his job. He could still get that information without revealing any involvement, couldn’t he? Did I miss something there? I just assumed that he checked her name on the list of transports out of the country and then informed Sarah of the time and date of her flight. I always acclaim to be such a realist but I found myself looking for Sarah when lbee and the "guard" were conversing on the plane. I wanted someone in her corner and I guess so did Cleave. :)
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Deb- please don't let these postings knock you off kilter here. Little by little, just come in, like you did, and tell us what problem you are having with your "reply." We can help you. The only way to learn is to do it and then let us know what you need assistance with. We've all been there and would love to help.
Yes, the story was left open ended Traude and Bella. I love to fill in the blanks with the book itself and I did. UDO was her name and it means peace!
Remember how shocked she was when she saw the multi-racial family? She said that she would not be able to tell that story to the girls back home- they wouldn't believe her. They would scoff at her if she attempted to explain how they held hands and smiled with pride. That just tore me up. My dad used to say that someday our world would be gray and prejudice would abate. I only wish that I believed as he did. Anyway, in the final chapter Charlie with his very white skin plays on the beach with the surprised black children.
This is my favorite and I cried when I read it: "I cried with joy when the children all began to play together in the sparkling foam of the wave that broke between worlds at the point."
UDO- Peace be unto you.
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Andy~ I am so glad to see you are able to post. I do hope your computer will be okay.
I don't believe that Lawrence would have told the authorities of his being complicit in knowing of lBee's illegal status. Why would he have? He would have been charged or worse- lose his job. He could still get that information without revealing any involvement, couldn’t he? Did I miss something there?
Lawrence did not offer the information of his involvement, the authorties were aware of it. After Little Bee was taken into custody in the UK, Sarah, Charlie and Lawrence go to see her. pg 190-191 in our Nook, "Outside the cell, Lawrence was arguing with a police officer. "This is a bit excessive, isn't it? They shouldn't deport her. She has a home to go to. She has a sponsor." "They're not my rules. sir. The immigration people are a law unto themselves." "But surely you can give us a bit of time to make a case. I work for the Home Office, I can get an appeal together." "If you don't mind my saying so, sir, if I worked for the Home Office and I knew all along this lady was illegal, I'd keep my mouth shut." And this, exactly, is what Lawrence did. I did not hear his voice after that.
The authorities were well aware of Lawrence and Sarah's part in harboring Little Bee and yet neither was charged and Lawrence was able to keep his job with Home Office, when in all reality IMO, he would never have been allowed near Home Office computers to find out the information about Little Bee. How could the woman who harbored an illegal refugee be allowed to go free, and be allowed to accompany her out of the country, be placed in a hotel with her for days, and bribe a guard to allow them to come and go as they pleased in a vehicle with NO legal license? For me that is just too far a stretch to be believed.
I do like your Dad's way of thinking.
And now I hear my friend Rick once again saying, "It's just a book." lolol
Ciao for now~
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I am not surprised at the ending of the book. LB would always be illegal in the UK. She wanted to return to her homeland. She was homesick. Her memories were in Nigeria. She missed the weather, the ocean, and the feeling of belonging.
I can understand Sarah's desire to gather 100 stories of other Nigerians. What I had trouble understanding was LB, Sarah, and Charlie, leaving the safety of their hotel, to go to the beach! That was what originally happened with Sarah and Andrew when they left safety, and went to the beach. It seems to me that Sarah would have learned.
I feel so sad, that "civilized" countries make it so difficult for people from the countries of war, dictators and poverty, to immigrate. I will never accept that when someone comes to America, from Cuba for example, they can stay if they gain access to land, but if they are caught iin the ocean, they are deported back to Cuba. Those, too, from Haiti.
There is a lot of news about the conditions in 3rd world countries. I have heard it. However, I have not really comprehended how devestating the lives of their people are. Reading this book, has brought a new and deeper awareness to me, of how fortunate I am to be a US citizen, and how dangerous the lives of those in 3rd world countries are.
Sheila
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I think a Texas location was suggested this past year, ALF, but the East Coast
prevailed again. A Texas meet would at least offer me the possibility of
attending. With me, nothing is certain.
Ah, yes, MARIE. Taking Charlie into that environment was another item on the
list of "Unbelievable!". Sarah is showing the same fallacy that destroyed
Andrew. She assumes that Little Bee will be safe under her protection. She
cannot grasp that in this country she has little power and no authority.
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Aye, aye Babi, let's push the powers that be to have one in Texas. (Now that my ex doesn't live there (or any where for that matter) I feel comfortable breathing the air in Tx.
I like to argue the counter point usually but I have to agree with you ladies: What the hell were they thinking?
Did they believe that the soldiers would disappear & cease their patrol of the beaches when they left Nigeria. Knowing the risks and perils how could they expose young Charlie to these dangers??????? :(
I agree Sheila. It was bad enough to be in Nigeria why would they leave the safety of their hotel? It's like thumbing your nose at the authorities.
Gotta go-- 15 minutes top on the machine.
UDO
Yes! Thanks Marie, I do remember that now that you point it out but knowing many "bureaucrats" in offices I also must add that it would have been extremely easy for Lawrence to access that information.
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It is snowing, fast and furious, and our book group meeting was postponed. I'm glad. It gives me more time to be here than I would otherwise, and that is both welcome and important in this las week of our discussion of LB.
Andy, I was so glad to see your posts this morning, and happy you could prod your recalcitrant computer forward - until help arrives.
In an effort to cover all angles i'll respond to the posts separately. And I will be back.
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Babi~ "She cannot grasp that in this country she has little power and no authority."
Exactly! And, she had little power and no authority in the UK either. It seems our author fancied snubbing his nose at authorities in this story, not only when Andrew and Sarah would not respect the guard's orders on the beach to keep them safe, but then she actually thinks she can go gallivanting around with a captured illegal in a hostile nation.
I realize Cleave wanted to give Little Bee closure so he brings them back to the beach, but with a four year old child in tow, that was too much for me to accept, but then he needed this,
"I cried with joy when the children all began to play together in the sparkling foam of the wave that broke between worlds at the point."
I have to admit this was touching and gave Little Bee the closure she needed for her plight and hope for all nations to one day be as one.
Andy~ I see your point in the " bureaucrats", but its a stretch for me to accept, because Lawrence had broken the law and should have not had anymore access to that information. But then I suppose we could conjecture someone else supplied him with it, since there had to be a way of getting Sarah on the plane, which I can't believe because SHE had broken the law, harbored an illegal who was being deported. How on earth could she be allowed the access once again to Little Bee. When I read Sarah on the plane my first thoughts were, "Egads its going to be like these crazy movies that make no sense in the end, and want us to accept it without questioning." But then as I pointed out, I have a tendency to expect believability in my books and movies that are trying to make a political statement, or enlighten me in areas of this magnitude.
I sense Cleave was in a quandary on how he was going to wrap this all up, reveal Little Bee's real name to Charlie, get Charlie to take off the costume, and also bring the closure and hope in the end. He just didn't do it in a sense for me that was believable by taking a four year old to a hostile nation and have them return to the beach where such horrific acts occurred. As Andy asks, "Did they believe that the soldiers would disappear & cease their patrol of the beaches when they left Nigeria."
Shelia~ I share your sentiments on immigration.
Ciao for now~
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"Little Bee, has changed me Lawrence, I can't look at her without
thinking how shallow my life is." (http://"Little Bee, has changed me Lawrence, I can't look at her without
thinking how shallow my life is.")
I listen to the way the author has little Bee talking with wonderful descriptive poetical ways of describing something we might just call by a single name,....she talked like the aboriginals of North America who would describe the winds the seasons, they put their souls into their thoughts ....ideas took longer to express but then they didn't really view time as we do I guess
*they thought deeper, they describes richer, they looked at their world with more dimension....
I have heard people in countries as Africa who are poor in 'stuff' (that we find necessary) are happier, more content
Little Bee initially had a wonderful early set of years; do we know how her parents viewed their lives? were they aware of what was going on around them how their lives were going to change? 'the influences of progress!!
posting this before I lose this post
Deb
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Thank you, Andy, Babi, Bellamarie, Sheila.
My own view is closest to Sheila's , as I've said before.
Bellamarie, when there's an open ending, we are free of course to imagine one that satisfies us. As for me, I had no wish to do so because in my mind LB's story had ended, and also because I see that story less as a "regular" nove- a bestseller iat that - and more like a parable, providing a lesson with an implied moral, in which the characters - in short - are secondary to the message being conveyed.
The message in this book is loud and clear and needed to be told.
This is my opinion and I make[/b] no attempt whatever to "convert" anybody else. Whatever a reader imagines as the future of Sarah and Charlie is fine with me. Just don't try to convince me, is all I ask in return.
※ I agree that the last three chapters of the book seem rushed and are rather condensed (and I never could stand those Readers' Digest Books). But there we are.
※ Regarding "unbelievable". The point is well taken. Given my fascination and preoccupation with words I simply must take this opportunity to mention a multi-syllabic noun : verosimilitude = likelihood. I like the very sound of it. Is the action veering toward the improbable ? Definitely.
i. Yes, it was neither logical nor prudent for Sarah to take Charlie to Nigeria on this daring mission.
ii. The entire venture was "an impossible dream" doomed from the start.
iii Feeling accountable, Sarah thought she could change LB's fate by gathering proof of the government's coverup of similar atrocities, bolstered by Andrew's records.
iv. Sarah bribed he guards soo that the three of them could leave the hotel to gather information and returned at the end of the day. We are not told ehat little Charlie did during those expeditions and interviews.
v. LB did not show much enthusiasm ifor the endeavor, and ultimately it was she who wanted to go back to the sea. Not her region, one must assume, because she couldn't undersand the language of the women around her. This time,Sarah lgab a lot more money to the guards because, ostensibly, they'd be gone longer.
vi. Not for one minute did I think LB would just wade into the sea and disappear. It would not have been right with the children splashing happily in the surf.
vii. LB told her Charlie her real name, Udo, Peace, and he, true to his earlier Batman promise, took off his costume. He must have felt so much more comfortable in the heat and running on the sand. Release, for both LB and Charlie.
Perhaps Cleave will write a sequel that tells us what happened when Sarah and Charlie returned to England, but I can't quite imagine that. It seems to me that we bring to our reading certain preconceived notions, and they determine our outlook and perspective. Whatever they are, we are blessed for being able to give voice to them in an amicable environment. What I try to do in life is be as objective as I can, which is not always easy.
Back in the morning, T.
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Hello, Deb ! Good to see you. I had just finished eliminating the typ;os from my post and hope I caught them all. Oh my.
A big wave to you, Deb, and to a very dear friend of mine who I know is in the wings.
Fondly, T
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Traude~ I like your word, verosimilitude = likelihood. :)
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Deb-
I listen to the way the author has little Bee talking with wonderful descriptive poetical ways of describing something we might just call by a single name,....she talked like the aboriginals of North America who would describe the winds the seasons, they put their souls into their thoughts
I love what you wrote here. This is the beauty of this novel, IMO- Cleave's ease with the poetic and rhythmic prose. I just love it.
Traude- Yes! Condensed ending is just what it is. As far as my own ending to this story- I've never been one to write an ending. I trust the author 's finale has been thoughtfully written. If he ends with everyone going into the drink, then so be it! :D Who am I to rewrite the script?
I can honestly say I never enter into the world of a novel with any preconceived notions. I think that is why I enjoy discussing the intricacies of a book with others. I like that we can confer with one another as we examine the words.
Good night and oh yes-UDO to all. (I love that, can you tell?)
I can not for the life of me conceive of a sequel to this story.
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Will someone please give me step, by step information about how to post a quote, here? I have been trying to figure it out for myself, with no success.
Thanks, Sheila
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Traude, I have to agree that this book was more concerned with "providing a lesson".
The message was what was important. I am more covinced of that as I realize that I'm
really not at all interested in what subsequently happened with the various characters.
It does occur to me that someone like Yvette, who proposed to simply vanish into a
neighborhood where everyone looked the same, had a reasonble chance of success. Look
at how readily so many illegal immigrants manage to mingle and merge here in Texas.
I also appreciate DEB's point about the 'story-telling' beauty of Little Bee's language.
I think all cultures that have little access to the Western forms of entertainment perfect
the art of story-telling. What is remarkable is how beautifully Cleave managed to capture
that language for us.
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Shelia~I will do my best to help.
1. Highlight the text you want inside your quote.
2. Go up to the top of the tool bar click edit and choose copy. (now this is saved to your clipboard)
4. Before the text you paste, type this bracket [ then type in the word quote then type this bracket. ] now paste your text you want to quote.(or just type the text you want inside the quote.)
5. At the end of the text you pasted or typed, to end the quote, type the bracket [ then use the blackslash / then type quote then type the other bracket ]
The backslash is the cue to end the quote.
I know they have the quote icon when you are in the preview or modify mode, but I find it sometimes will not allow me to highlight the text I want, for me it goes all over the place so I revert back to the old fashion way using the brackets as I type.
Andy~ I like your statement, "As far as my own ending to this story- I've never been one to write an ending. I trust the author 's finale has been thoughtfully written."
Myself being a writer at heart, I find myself always writing or rewriting the ending or even other parts of a movie or book. Its just fun for me. Its also my nature to critique other writers, afterall we must hold them to a certain standard. lolol It also makes good discussion material. I don't go into a book or movie with preconceived notions either, I sometimes will not read any reviews or interviews beforehand so it will not alter my thoughts ahead of reading or seeing a story/movie. I like going in open to what ever the story/movie has to offer to me individually. I agree authors endings are carefully thought out, but many an author can fall short of being beleivable.
Traude~ This story being a parable to you is interesting, do you suppose Cleave using scripture had that in mind?
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Gosh, I haven't been here for awhile; actually my book is gone, back to its spot in the library. However, I remember how stunned I was at the ending, stunned to read that Sarah had actually gone back to Nigeria and taken her little son, Charlie, with her. How could she go to the place that ruined her life, her marriage, mutilated her hand, could have been the cause for Andrew's suicide?
Did she think that returning to the scene would heal the heart as some therapist might say? And, then, an open end to the book, as TRAUDE talked about.
But it's a story, after all, and it does bring the immigration problem to the foreground for us to "mull" over.
Still and all, I loved the book, I questioned it, it stayed with me!
Thanks so much to ALF and TRAUDE for guiding us through it and all of you for your keen remarks.
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Correction
Because of my worsening vision I check my posts several times for typos, but some manage to slip through, unnoticed. Like verisimilitude.
The correct spelling is verisimilitude (not verOsimilitude) = the appearance, the semblance of truth. I am sorry.
Back later.
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Sheila -BellaMarie has shown you one way to copy a quote. You may also use the button just below the CHANGE COLOR COMMAND -next to the Font face command. (over on the right)
After you've copied the quote go up there and hit the yellow button under the change color. It looks like a yellow legal sheet . Press that and your quote will be highlighted. The only difference is you don't need to put the quote brackets etc. in your post. By hitting the yellow button with what is highlighted it will do that for you. So there's no need for step #3 and #5.
I hope that I made myself clear and that it helps somewhat.
Traude- yes veri (as in truth) similitude as in similar. ;)
Bless you heart Ella- it is always a pleasure to have you aboard on one of our discussions.
I have a question that keeps going round and round in my head but before I embarass myself and ask it, I am going to go and research this word globalization. I shall return and perhaps all of you can help me to understand something.
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Did Little Bee board that ship alone out of fear for her life or was she deported?
At that time weren't many Nigerians resettled in the UK? Why? Who had the authority to "resettle" anyone? Maybe I just don't understand globalization as I thought I did. Who had that right? Hitler took the right to resettle the Jews. WE in the USA took the right to resettle the Japanese (even if they were American born.) I understand the necessity of integration with global economies etc but I can not grasp the tenet of relocation of children.
Can someone straighten my brain out on this point. ::)
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Andy, yes veri- as in veritas !
I have been looking for the passage that describes LB's lonely trek toward the open sea and will continue to check. The print in the paperback is small and the magnifying glass is heavy to hold.
LB's flight began after Nkiruka had been killed and LB felt safe enough to climb out of the boat in which she had been hiding, not seeing much, but hearing ieverything.
Thinking only of getting away, she walked at night, in the shallow water of the coastline to avoid leaving her scent on the sand. During the day she hid in the jungle. She ate something that made her violently ill. She went on for an untold number of nights. On the final night she came to the ocean where two ships lay at anchor, one Italian, the other British, with a cargo of tea. No one was about. She climbed in. An officer found her in the morning, looked at her, not unkindly, and locked her in a cabin, for her safety. He gave her Great Expectations to read. The ship arrived in England before she could finish the book. She was turned over to immigration.
About resettling Nigerians in England. I am not sure there is such an effort.
British law is clear, and the policy of the 10 (ten) existing immigration detenion centers is spelled out in the link which Ella provided. Any person entering without valid papers is illegal, has no right to stay in Britain, must turn him/or herself in or be forcibly removed and sent back to his/her native land.. There were no exemptions and no exceptions.
The law of the land decides man's fate. And LB's future ended in Nigeria because the authorities knew what she knew and wanted her dead.
Hitler, an a simple man with a second-rate education and quite possibly insane, wanted more than to 'resettle' the Jews. He set about eradicating them. Only a contorted, criminal mind could contrive to shut away in concentration camps anybody who does not think exactly as ordered or conforms without question to anything he/she is told.
It began right after he came to power in 1931. The first people he put behind bars and razor-wired fences were the Communists he had defeated (by hook and crook) in the last election, and, paradoxically, members of the clergy, who spoke out against his methods. Not long after began the systematic persecution of the Jews, the transportation into the camps killings.
Jews had to report to town halls in to be "registered". They had to wear a yellow star on t heir clothing. Then came Kristallnacht. The rest is history.
I too was an immigrant when we landed on these shores, so were my husband and our little girl.
We had a U.S. visa in our passports. Immigration and customs were there and inspected our luggage on the dusty pier in the harbor of New York on a hot summer's day. One piece was my father's footlocker from WW I,full of books. The customs officer pointed to it and asked, "What's in there?"
"Books," I said. "Books?" he exclaimed and laughed picking it up. It was heavy and he dropped it. The fold-over-lock broke, the books tumbled out, some on his foot. His face became red and he told another man to help put the books back abd secure the piece with metal bands. Then he turned without examining any other pieces.
My husband were resident aliens and issued a green card each. Every January we had to report to the Immigration and NaturaliZation Sservice, as it was called then, whose office was in the Old Post Office building in Washington.
An American family stationed in Germany were our sponsors. The process took 5 (five) years. In time they were ordered back to Virginia. They too had to fill out all kinds of forms, as did we.
Once admitted to the country, 5 more years must pass before a resident alien can can apply for naturalization. After a formal application is filed, an examination with an immigration examiner is scheduled who questions the applicant about U.S. history, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the basic structure of the government. We were interviewed separately, my husband by a female officer, I by a male. Both of us passed and were congratulated.
A formal ceremony for a large group of new citizens took place a while later in court in Alexandria, Virginia. A true milestone. A relief to live like ordinary citizens, no longer required to report to Immigration every January.
Let me say, however, that the transition and adjustment to a new life, a new beginning, to prove oneself personally and professionally all over again, is not easy for the first generation.
It was easier for my daughter and son, the second generation.
I am very grateful that Andy has been here with me in this discussion with her forthrightness and her unique style. She after all is a true native of this country and has more gravitas. By comparison I am the outsider. Thank you for bearing with me.
I am similarly grateful for Ella's presence here; it meant a lot to me.
More to say. Tomorrow.
Good night.
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Traude, thank you for that very interesting insight into immigration. The book that I mentioned before, "Voice of America" also illustrates the difficulties of first generation immigrants, this time Nigerians, in the US (and I'm sure it would be the same here). They struggle to fit in, to understand local ways, and at the same time they face a lot of hostility from some people. There is a particularly sad story about a female college lecturer who is psychologically tortured by her students because they can't understand her accent. African immigrants often have an entire extended family back home depending on their income.
When West Indians first came to the UK in large numbers (before I was born), there was outright racism and discrimination - for example, boarding houses would not take "blacks". Although this is of course no longer allowed by law, I can't imagine that the situation of many immigrants has improved much - there is particular hostility to anyone who seems "different" - thus a white American would have no trouble living here, would be positively welcomed, but an African would be viewed with suspicion by many (not all) people. For some reason people in this city seem to be vehemently anti-Polish too - I can't even begin to understand that one, as the Polish people are no drain on anyone's resources, they all have jobs, work very hard, speak excellent English, etc. There is a general view amongst the local population that "they" have taken all the jobs, but in fact those jobs are the very ones that people have been unable to recruit for for years, because local people are not prepared to work for the low wages paid in retail, hotels, etc. Similarly, it has been nigh on impossible to get a reliable tradesman for as long as I can remember - now we have Polish electricians, plumbers, etc, who turn up when they said they would, do a good job and don't treat you like you are lucky they came at all - whereas many local tradesmen fail on all three of these points.
i think you are right, there is no state effort to resettle Nigerians as far as I know, although there are charities doing their best to help.
We have a very interesting programme on TV at the moment about gypsies/travellers. There is immense hostility to these people in the whole of the UK - they are seen as scroungers, petty criminals, etc. The programme is showing that they do in fact have much higher standards than many of us do - eg sex before marriage is an absolute no-no, girls are not allowed to drink alcohol at all until they are married, and so on. These people face antagonism both from other residents and from the local authorities wherever they go - I hadn't realised that they do usually own the land that they try to set up sites on - but as soon as the local councils realise who they are, they refuse to grant them planning permission. This week's film showed heart-breaking scenes of a camp being bulldozed by a local authority - the bailiffs were sent in and were dragging people (gypsies and their local supporters) bodily away. Another thing that stood out was how articulate and sensible the travellers were - even young children understood all too well what was going on, and had a vocabulary way beyond the average for their age.
Today is Holocaust Day. My daughter is singing at a ceremony in Aberdeen at which people will read poems and give presentations about what this means (a girl in her school who is older than her asked yesterday "What is the Holocaust?").
Incidentally, Anna also sings at the Council's citizenship ceremonies from time to time - I suppose that would be the equivalent of your ceremony in Alexandra.
Rosemary
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Thank you Traude for the account of your family's immigration. It must be unfathomable to witness our "immigration" laws now. (or lack thereof) In those days there was so red tape to deal with, now-- well they just go over or around the fence.
Why do you think that the customs officer just ordered your father's footlocker to be taped up and then not examine anything else? Was it just embarrassment?
Hitler, an a simple man with a second-rate education and quite possibly insane, wanted more than to 'resettle' the Jews. He set about eradicating them. Only a contorted, criminal mind could contrive to shut away in concentration camps anybody who does not think exactly as ordered or conforms without question to anything he/she is told.
Isn't that exactly what these soldiers did to the Nigerian villagers? They weren't conforming, the oil industry wanted the land for oil exploration and the people were displaced and/or eradicated.
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Andrea - although equally inexcusable, i don't think the motivation is quite the same. Hitler was obsessed with an ideology; oil companies are obsessed with money and profits. When I think about it, the latter two now seem to be the motivation for most things. I hate the way the whole of society now appears to be governed by money - and as I said earlier, the oil companies, etc can't be seen in isolation, they are all part of the western world (ie us) wanting to preserve our high standard of living and not share it with anyone else.
I am not sure what one can/should do about this.
R
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Well said Rosemary and I agree with you. I don't have an answer either as to what we can do about this mess.
I am so happy that you have "found" yourself on these boards. You seem very comfortable and not in the least bit shy about your postings. You contribute a great deal of information and insight.
Thank you everyone for being ever diligent and hanging in here with the discussion which makes many folks shudder. You are all an important asset here.
I love the idea that we each bring a small part of ourselves to the boards from all over the world. It always amazes me how different and yet how similar we are.
This has been my pleasure and I thank you Traude for inviting me to join you.
May we all find, extend and pray for peace. UDO!
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Thanks Andrea - I must say I really enjoy these boards and can't wait to log onto them and see what has been going on overnight. The contributors are all so interesting - and so kind - I love the way we can have conversations without any aggression or posturing - so unlike most politicians (I have been subjected to Sky News all day for the past 2 weeks at the office and if I have to listen to one more minute of David Cameron et al sounding off I think I will scream).
I am not really a very confident person, and usually shut up if someone talks loudly enough over me (I am only too used to having to put up with the older generation of male lawyers, who tend to like the sound of their own voices) - that is another great thing about this group, we all respect each other's right to "speak". I hope one day I will make it to one of your gatherings and meet some of these truly lovely people.
I still wouldn't say I like "Little Bee" - but I have enjoyed this discussion much more than I thought I would - so you were right!
Many thanks for your warm welcomes and continuing friendship.
Rosemary
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Traude~ Thank you for sharing your families plight. My grandparents immigrated to the U.S. from Italy, they spoke little to broken English as long as they lived here. I wish I could have gotten to know them and talked to them to know how it was when they entered this country. I feel sad and so ill informed after reading this book, and your life story. I suppose I can only hope to be better educated, and hope for one day as Little Bee glimpsed, the unitedness of all races, colors, and creeds. I am thankful that at least the United States welcomes all. I suppose that is why we are referred to as the melting pot of the world.
Rosemary~ I so agree with what you said about the money and power. I fear government no longer sees the people they are elected to serve, they seem to work for the companies that can help their self interests and profit the most. We have gotten so spoiled and comfortable with our way of life that its easy to turn a blind eye, rather than to stand up and demand more from our government. Not to get too political, I do think the tea party movement is doing just that, demanding accountability, asking for transparency and holding the elected officials to the job they are elected to do, which is serve the people, not wall street, oil companies, banks etc. Money and power does and I fear will always be the downfall of men, yet the strength of nations, if that makes sense.
Andy and Traude I want to thank the two of you for taking on this book discussion. As I said in the beginning when some were dropping off like flies, this book is not for sissies. Now that in no way refers to anyone personally who was not up to staying with this book as a sissy, its just a figure of speech. Traude, I know I can be very passionate at times with my posts and please never feel I would in any way try to sway another's opinions with my posts. My Italian personality comes through and if you could only see me in person, instead of my hands on the keyboard, they would be flying all over in the air and me ending with Mama Mia watsamadderyou? lolol I respect each person's right to have their own opinions and feelings and I do feel because of our many walks of life we bring to the discussion bits and pieces of that in our posts. Andy its so true when you say how different, yet alike we all are. I love that at SeniorLearn we all respect that and can have healthy and enlightening discussions. If you and Little Bee won't mind sharing, I shall end with....UDO!
Ciao for now~
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Thank you Rosemary and Bell, you have warmed my heart.
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Andy, I agree with Rosemary. The oil companies had a different motivation - money, profit.
It can be assumed that wherever they wee based, they made thedecisions about exploring and drilling when and where, etc. And that they had hired hands, contractors, perhaps mercenaries. Whoever the "executioners" were, they knew what they did was wrong and tried to cover it up.
Which did not work.
The UK is not the only country in Europe facing ever new waves of immigrants. And every country deals with them in accordance with its laws and policies.
The man who handed LB over to the authorities in Ajuba was was less doctrinaire and much less condescending than the female officer in the airport had been. He did this job because it paid well and he couldn't find anything else. He also told LB that he was working for a Dutch company, running "the show, the detention centers, the repatriations
Bellamarie, in an earlier post you asked how could Sarah be allowed to make contact with LB again. There was no law against it, was there ?
After seeing LB in prison for the allowed time, Sarah went home with Charlie and Lawrence. We are not told that she was given the order to stay away from LB.
When Lawrence found out on which flight LB would be, Sarah went to the airport with Charlie and bought tickets for that flight. And they sold them to her. Nobody stopped her. Nobody bodily prevented her from sitting down next to LB.
Andy, how LB got to the port is described in Chapter Five, pages 134-135.
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The scene at the customs is still fresh in my mind. The tone of the officer's voice was mocking. He clearly did not believe me. It shocked me that someone could believe I was lying at such a solemn moment. I believe he was embarrassed. That's why he left.
We have several days left for discussion and I will make full use of them.
We are digging out from more inches of snow on top of what is still there.
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P.S. Thank you so very much for today's posts. I just saw them while going over my own.
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ANDY, and BELLA, thank you both, for the directions on quoting. I didn't sleep last night, so in reading them, I am having trouble understanding. So, I will wait until tomorrow, and see if I have a better understanding.
Sheila
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Unfortunately, ROSEMARY, it would appear that greed is not an
exclusive trademark of Western society. Don'w we hear all too
frequently of a midEastern or emerging African country where all
the money winds up in the hands of those in power, while the
rest of the country remains in deep poverty? And when the people
rise up in revolt, the heads of government run for refuge, taking
millions with them.
ALF & TRAUDE, thank you so much for opening and leading a great
discussion. This is a book I would probably not have read otherwise,
and the contributions everyone has made have been so worthwhile.
Your insights, in particular, added a great deal. Again, thank you both.
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Sheila- I felt like I had three thumbs when I first was learning to do the "quote" thing. It really is easy - perhaps it was my directions.
Do the first part and see how that feels. If you have any questions please feel free to email me.
Also Jane is the best teacher that we have. She is patient, understanding and relentless in helping us to understand this stuff- all done in a gracious and affable way.
Here are USEFUL tips that Jane has provided and a place to go on our boards if you need help.
USEFUL TIPS (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=95.0)
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Babi- You are very welcome and I was delighted that you agreed to join us. You always bring a sense of balance to a discussion, many times observing things in a more equitable way. I like balance, I'm just not good at it.
Unfortunately, ROSEMARY, it would appear that greed is not an
exclusive trademark of Western society.
AMEN! Look at the case of Doc Duvalier. He ran like a chicken for refuge when it got too hot after mishandling millions of dollars, forcing his country further into poverty. Now he returns at the worst of times to his native country. ???
I would not be surprised if he isn't assassinated. Lord, they probably have their weapons buried beneath that mess of a rubble that still exists after a year, so maybe he's safe.
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Babi picked up on most of the quotes that I had highlighted. My fvorite in this book was "Everyone is complicit in grief."
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Thank you, Andy, Babi, Sheila, and all who posted for more than a month since this book was first suggested.
What makes a discussion are the responses, and the responsiveness, the echo.
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When a vast oil spill from BP’s Macondo well in the Gulf of Mexico transfixed millions of people last year, many environmentalists argued that the disaster paled in comparison to the damage Nigeria had suffered through decades of intensive oil exploitation. The country’s problems are compounded by endemic corruption and ethnic violence.
Geert Ritsema of the Friends of the Earth said at the round table that Shell tolerated levels of environmental damage in Nigeria that it would never accept at home. “When will you stop applying double standards?” he said. (http://When a vast oil spill from BP’s Macondo well in the Gulf of Mexico transfixed millions of people last year, many environmentalists argued that the disaster paled in comparison to the damage Nigeria had suffered through decades of intensive oil exploitation. The country’s problems are compounded by endemic corruption and ethnic violence.
Geert Ritsema of the Friends of the Earth said at the round table that Shell tolerated levels of environmental damage in Nigeria that it would never accept at home. “When will you stop applying double standards?” he said.)
quote above from 'The New York Times'
life was so much easier before the internet...I say that with tongue in cheek...how much like ostriches with heads in the sand not realizing our influence on the rest of the world...I have to thank this book for giving me more awareness of my effect on our environment and world and how our western civilization is very hurtful...how did we come to this without any realization of consequence & responsibility!!!
who said fiction wasn't educating people
I am very glad I had the opportunity to be with this group reading this book
thank you
Deb
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Thank you Deb for the article. And now just today Egypt is having a revolution in the streets with thousands of protestors and what does our media have to say, " They wonder how this will effect the world's oil." Just amazes me. I thank heaven for the internet, although Egypt has cut off all access to the internet at this time. What is it they don't want others to see or know? Little Bee was doomed due to what she saw and knew.
Some things will never change as long as we continue to stay dependent on oil. Whether it's ideology, power or money, it will always be the driving force behind inhumane treatment in order to gain it.
Ciao for now~
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who said fiction wasn't educating people
Deb, how true. Had it not been for this book I would continue to think of Nigerians only in the role of Internet and email scammers. Now I can find it on a map of Africa and know that it is the most populous country of Africa, and that the North is mainly Muslin and the South predominantly Christian. And that it is Africa’s largest oil producer. More importantly, I want to know more about not only Nigeria, but also immigration issues.
My apologies for being such a poor contributor. I had to return the book to the library and thus was not always sure what had occurred when. But I did keep up with all the discussion and what a marvel it all was/is. I read your comments, and then wonder about them, and then get distracted and try to find more.
Andy and Traude, I think this must have been the most difficult discussion ever, to lead. The structure of the novel itself is difficult to read, let alone trying to lead discussion in a coherent manner. You all did wonderfully.
Rosemary, I have put your Voice of America by Oscundu on my Kindle wish list. The comment about some stories set in America prompted me to wonder if here in the US we had immigration centers, identity papers, etc. What kind of fears do illegal immigrants who have lived in Arizona for 20 years have? (I just finished A Trace of Smoke, set in Germany in 1931 just before the Nazis took power, and everyone had to have identity papers then.) Traude, I can’t imagine what all you have experienced, but your words about your immigration experiences certainly painted a picture of how trying and difficult the process must be.
As you can see, easily distracted. This morning I’ve been looking for pictures, and have come across this, (see link) from someone’s blog
We entered into Nigeria at a border crossing that it is highly doubtful that any overland truck has gone through before. I should mention that the route we have taken recently has been all new and unexplored so while we have missed some known sights we feel like we have discovered some new and exciting ones that others will follow us to, which is pretty cool. . . . . The next few days driving through the remote Nigerian countryside on our way to Abuja (the 1970'a built 'neutral' Nigerian capital) were and always will be just about indescribable.We passed through towns and villages that had rarely seen white people, let alone 20-odd (and some are VERY odd) white people in a big open sided truck driving through or stopping in their village . . . . . We changed money, had a beer, and then Sarah and i walked up to the market, where after buying some water we turned around to find we had a following of at least 50 people who just stared, smiled, touched my tattoo and looked genuinely amazed or confused that we were really there.
We passed villages on the dirt road and the people would seemingly come from everywhere, with the kids yelling, screaming, waving, dancing, jumping up and down, and running beside and behind the truck for, and I am serious here, at least 2km's and often almost to the next village.
I have never seen a reaction like that, they were just so happy to see us and it was such a great shame that we could not stop and say hello to them all.
Nigeria travel (http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entries/sabenafrica/1/1245249001/tpod.html)
Village picture (http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entries/sabenafrica/1/1245249001/tpod.html#pbrowser/sabenafrica/1/1245249001/filename=small-nigerian-village.jpg)
This is way long. More later.
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Pedln-what a terrific article and pictures to stumble upon. Ironically that is how I found the quote about Nigeria and the oil situation...and I was initially trying to find more information about the Egyptian crisis situation...
I am so glad the students, kids, travellers in that blog had a lovely time, took some wonderful pictures for me to enjoy and left safely...(just because they were able to leave safely doesn't mean the next group would be able to, one never knows....
Their travels remind me of James Michener's book 'The Drifters' I read many years ago and dreamed of travelling with a like group of 20 year olds
Deb
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Thank you, Deb, for staying here with us.
Perhaps life was easier before instant communication worldwide 24/7, and before the advent of the web. We can not imagine life without it any more, and the social groups within it have become important agents of change.
Analysts tell us that Facebook was instrumental in the (essentially peaceful) toppling of the Tunisian government, for decades notorious for the excesses and nepotism of its leaders. Now the winds of change are blowing in Egypt, a country much larger than Tunisia, where protesters demand the resignation of President Mubarak, a dictator. While globalization has increased international business, trade and profits for corporation, it brought millions of unemployed, in Egypt, at home, and many other countries.
Inequity and exploitation are not new; they existed during colonialism and before. In Nigeria was so much hope when independence came but, sadly, not every regime change is for the better. Yet hope springs eternal.
Pedln thank you for your post, the travel article and the links. They make the perfect (and, ina way, even a happy !) ending for our discussion. The story forced Andy and me to take an approach different from the form we normally use, but there was no other choice. The beautiful, lyrical writing made it all worth while.
My gratitude to my pal, Andy, and to all of you.
Traude
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As I said before, all of you make the discussion what is was. It was a difficult journey but well worth it for both Traude and for me. I enjoyed it.
Traude, you are an excellent leader and it showed.
I am particularly pleased that our two "newbies" Rosemary and deb hung in there until the end. I hope that you both get as much enjoyment from these boards and the wonderful people that bring their thoughts here as I have in the past 11 years.
UDO
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I was really disappointed in the last quarter of the book. It seems like the author got overly descriptive and he also put in some unbelievable (to me, anyway) bits. I do not think Sarah would have returned to Nigeria with her son. She would not have put him in harm's way. The ending was a little contrived and it disappointed me. I think the book started out much better than it ended. I don't think I could recommend it to others. It was too depressing.
Sally
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For the past couple of days, this book has been very much on my mind. I almost gave up on it in the early chapters. I am so very glad that I stayed with it. Although, it was depressing during much of it, I have come to realize that I am inclined to not read things that are depressing! I had not realized that until now.
Now, I believe that to be well informed, I need to read, and listening to things that are depressing. That is often the case in our world. My view of Africa will never be the same, after this reading. The characters in LB were a part of reality. We are each a part of the reality of this world. I do not want to be an ostrich, with my head stuck in the sand.
I feel it is very important to watch the news about Egypt. It is a revolution. How fortunate we are, to live in a country, where even with strong, disagreements, there is no rioting in the streets. We sure are not a perfect nation, but we have so much to be grateful for.
For the few days I have been wondering something about the book. Wouldn't LB have needed a passport to fly back to Nigeria? How could she have gotten into the country without one? Funny, how questions such as this pop up now and then.
Thank you, so much Traude, and Andy, for leading us. You did a wonderful job, and I am so glad that I was a part of it. Traude, when did you immigrate to America? Thank you for sharing about getting here.
Sheila
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Sally and Sheila, your posts are appreciated, thank you both.
I had been thinking about an answer for Sally and was warming my cold hands on a cup of tea, there was Sheila's message.
Sheila, you said it beautifully : "The characters in LB were part of reality. We are each part of the reality of this world."
Exactly.
Sally, Not every book we read will please or appeal to everyone - or displease, for that matter. We've different tastes, temperaments and viewpoints (although all of us surely prefer good news to bad any day). All I can say is "to each his own", or "suum cuique", as the Romans said.
Good and evil coexist in the world, and though we avoid evil in all its manifestations, we are powerless to escape the reality of it. As far back as we go in history, there have been wars, for women (Helen of Troy), for land, for power and money, and in this century for oil.
Yes, LB is only a story, the characters and their actions invented by the author (narrative license), but the story is based on undeniable facts, on truth. The innocent rarely have recourse. But in the eyes of the British LB had entered the country without papers, she was an illegal. So, legally, they had every right to deport her to her certain doom.
Sheila, LB didn't need a passport - she had a personal escort who delivered her into the Nigerian authorities. Her fate was sealed. Still as long as we hear voices of conscience like Cleave's, there's reason for hope and optimism. Thank you for your kind words. Thank you for the pleasure of your company all this month. Thanks again, Andy.
With sincere gratitude,
T
P.S. Sheila we came in the summer of 1954.
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I was really disappointed in the last quarter of the book. It seems like the author got overly descriptive and he also put in some unbelievable (to me, anyway) bits. I do not think Sarah would have returned to Nigeria with her son. She would not have put him in harm's way. The ending was a little contrived and it disappointed me. I think the book started out much better than it ended. I don't think I could recommend it to others. It was too depressing.
Sally
Sally~ I think the majority consensus agrees with you and have expressed it pretty much using the same words, including me. While Cleave did an excellent job in bringing awareness to the issues of immigration, discrimination, government cover up, torture, mistreatment in the immigration centres, etc., he fell short to give the ending an acceptable, believable ending. Its not to criticize the author, its a critique that we the reader are allowed to do, and every author welcomes.
I would recommend this book to my friends and family members because I feel it is based on facts where the issues at hand are concerned. The characters lacked emotion IMO, and so I was not able to connect to any of them, except maybe Charlie.
Thank you Andy and Traude, you did a great job with this difficult book. To all who posted it made for a very enlightening discussion for me, I will refrain from naming each of you for fear I would leave someone out which would appear thoughtfuless of me. I look forward to future book discussions with all of you.
We are expecting at least a foot of snow in the coming week, so I am ready for a nice light read to snuggle up with.
Udo~ Bellamarie
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I had posted this information earlier, but somehow it got lost on my computer...I had wanted to tell of a sad scenario I heard related on our home radio of CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) last summer...it related a true account of a man from either Africa or some other third world country who was trying to remain in our country. He had been in the country for a few years apparently, with sponsors and had become a member of the community he lived in, having a business he began ...somewhere in the maritime provinces...everyone in the community couldn't say enough wonderful things about this man...he had a major struggle to just get into Canada in the first place probably escaping and struggling thru countries evading authorities to reach a hopeful safe haven....
...the sad ending to this tale is the authorities finally said 'no' to his application for landed immigrant status and he was to be returned to ;his country of origin....the man hung himself on a tree on a favourite walking path of his the day before he was to be taken to the airport to leave
that man's tale stayed with me for days, I felt for him (of course there was much more to this story...) ...how coincidental to find myself in a book of this nature
it just reaffirms the sadness in many parts of our world...and how with the internet we are forced to be more aware of what goes on in other countries
I am so pleased to be a part to this discussion, and to have read this book (that is one of the best things about book groups is finding books outside of one's usual repertoire)
thank you
Deb
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Traude- You and I could not ask for a more appropriate ending to our discussion than the opinions on this last page.
They have deeply moved me and Sheila said it well-
Now, I believe that to be well informed, I need to read, and listening to things that are depressing. That is often the case in our world. My view of Africa will never be the same, after this reading.
The grand finale and I thank each one of you, especially my leader, Traude.
Udo~~~ Andy