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Talking Heads
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A two week forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online: bring your ideas and let's discuss.
First up: Is Cursive Writing Dead?
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/cursive.jpg)
Recently in the Christian Science Monitor, The Boston Globe, the Washington Post and Newsweek a debate has arisen concerning the teaching of Cursive Writing.
Here is the original article in the Christian Science Monitor:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1114/p13s01-legn.html?s=hns
Do we need to teach or use cursive writing any more? Is penmanship dead? What's the Palmer Method?
What's YOUR opinion? Read the short article and then weigh in!
How's YOUR handwriting?
Discussion Leader: Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Welcome to our newest discussion, which will address topics in print, in the news, magazines, online, anywhere we can put a link to it, and will be sort of an informal round table discussion of that issue.
When we have finished this one, we'll take suggestions for the next one, perhaps you've read an article you'd like to submit for our interest to hear what we have to say about it? When we get through with this one, bring it here and we'll choose which we'd like to talk about next. We might even try a poll, this is a new site and we can do what we want!
First up: cursive handwriting. Please read the short article linked at the top of the page. What are your thoughts on this?
Hows YOUR handwriting? When's the last time you got a letter written in hand or wrote one? Is the computer destroying our ability to write (and do math?) Did you know some schools have stopped teaching the multiplication tables reasoning calculators can do the job?
ARE machines taking over our lives?
Is this good or bad?
What do you think? We'd love to know.
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THAT is a good article. What do they mean "with only 15 percent of adults using cursive after high school. "
What are the rest of adults doing?
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I think a lot of people use a variation on block print. In some schools I understand that cursive as we knew it in school is no longer taught at all. Again, a variation/modification of block print is used. It's what the kids see in books and so why not write that way as well?
Actually makes sense to me rather than slave over how to make an F in cursive or some of those other letters that were a trial.
jane
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Really!! And here they castigated my sons for using block print! (They both turned out to be engineers who not only use block print but I've heard block print on en engineering blueprint (when they used to make them by hand) was one of the hardest things to do well, good block print).
How about the Q? I have never understood why a cursive Q should look like a 2.
They do say that (not in this article but it's all over the news media) you tend to use whatever cursive you were taught, as a child, that you don't waver from it. Apparently you just drop it. Is block printing fast?
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I sure don't use the cursive I slaved over in 3rd grade. It was tedious and looked awful, I thought. The only people I've ever seen write like that are teachers of grades 3, 4,5,& 6.
I find that I and those I know have their own form of "cursive/block print."
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I will read the article, but must say that when I first heard about not teaching cursive my heart just bled for all the little third graders, and those who will follow them.
That is a major RITE of PASSAGE for eight-year-olds. It's a BIG DEAL!! My grandchilden on both coasts (well, the girls, anyway) were so proud to announce, "I can write cursive." They had looked forward to it all through second grade.
Of course, that doesn't mean they stuck with it. Just looking at the thank you's on the bulletin board -- both 14 yr old Lizzie and 12 yr old Brian have reverted to printing, one fancy, one hardly fancy, but both more legible than anything their grandmother writes. I avoid handwriting as much as possible, but when forced to address and envelope by hand, I use block -- all capital letters. I detest writing checks.
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I need a couple of terms defined. When you say block print do you mean all upper case or lower case or what? And what is meant by the italic cursive, mentioned by Dr. Gladstone in the article.
I agree with the Vanderbilt professor who says children organize their thoughts and write better using a keyboard. And when you have a finite amount of teaching time available I would prefer to see it spent teaching thinking skills and organizing and expressing thoughts.
Granted, everyone needs to be able to exhibit some kind of legible handwriting. I agree with Dr. Gladstone, pick one and teach it -- most likely printing, and offer minimal exposure to cursive. Surely there will be something else that's special about third grade.
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I have old report cards that showed all A's and a few B's --- and D's in writing.
But when I went to high school, only commercial students took typing.
College prep students were too busy taking 4 years of Latin, and years of
English and American Literature, beside Biology, Zoology, Botany and Chemistry.
So I can't type and I can't write.
When I worked with the children in the grade school on the old Mac LCs, we played
Mario Teaches Typing. By 5th grade we moved to Mavis Beacon. At the end of 6th
grade they were fairly proficient in typing.
In Jr.High, most of them aced the typing/keyboard course.
Now those kids are in college taking notes on a laptop.
There are jobs out there where good typing skills are a must.
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Instead of focusing on what type of handwriting is best, Graham suggests that schools concentrate on improving students' handwriting, period, whatever it is.
I agree with that premise, what difference if a kid writes in block letters, black letters or calligraphy? As long as it is legible it should not matter.
I believe more time should be spent on teaching proper grammar than on deriding a child because their "a's" are not closed enough.
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Pedin - here is a site that shows samples of children's italic cursive writing
http://www.cep.pdx.edu/samples/childsample.PDF
I needed to know what the heck they were talking about too, so i googled it and this came up .................................Jean
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checking in
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I wish I could print. My printing is much worse than my cursive. My printing mixes lower case and upper case styles in the same word. They are the same size but different styles. My wife's cursive is beautiful. All the letters are perfectly formed, the spacing even, the heights the same, and she doesn't need lines.
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Hi, I am new to this site, but couldn't help laughing at post #5. As a teacher of fifth grade for years, the Palmer and then Peterson methods of handwriting drove me crazy. Among other things one fourth grade teacher taught her entire class year after year the wrong way to put the top on capital t's and I struggled to correct them. Now I wonder why it was so important, but it was then. I think many adults use printing but with flourishes like connecting ths with a stroke or something individual.
I read once that psychologists considered adults who still wrote the same as in fifth grade were too inhibited and needed to develop a more individual style. My handwriting has deteriorated yet I take it in stride. Much ado about not much as long as writing was legible, I think.
Sandy
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I use cursive for my signature.. but for anything else a mix of print and cursive. I know how our eldest grieved in elementary school, because his one bad mark was always handwriting. By the 7th grade he was printing ( aha, Ginny another engineer) and his printing is wonderful. At that time in college they handprinted, so they learned to be very very good and fast at it.
Truth about correspondence. I simply never handwrite except for short thank you notes, etc. The rest are always computer generated. I love the computer and according to both our sons, they can actually read what Mom wrote. I used to handwrite both of them when the younger was in the army and the older in college. Then we got a printer for our computer and I never looked back. I will say that our granddaughter learned cursive in school. She is now in the 7th grade.. Handwriting is not great. Our grandson who is in the 1st grade prints and the printing is very precise. Will be interested in finding out what his cursive will look like.
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I have alread commented more than once on how my handwriting --never terrific--- deteriorated to terrible once I began using a typewriter. Computer written letters do lack a personal touch, regrettably, but at least they are legible. But what do you do when your printer refuses to work?! We have had three printers, and they all had stopped printing after a short life span. We gave up on the printers and lean heavily on e-mail, which really puts a crimp in the once high art of letter-writing.
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Steph, your son's bad marks in penmanship brought back memories.
My mother deplored my handwriting. The elementary report card grades were Superior, Satifactory, and Unsatifactory. My penmanship grade managed to get a Satisfactory, barely. When I was in 5th or 6th grade, my mother said that if I ever got a Superior in penmanship she would stand on her head. Well, she was a teacher, and a friend of my teacher. Naturally I told my teacher what she said. So, guess who got a Superior and guess who had to stand on her head at the School's-Over-Teacher-Gettogether.
Jean, interesting examples of cursive. I guess the italic means the use print for upper case letters.
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Interesting topic. I remember my boys in high school in the late 1970's early 80's,-- printing. It upset me then, but they could print faster and neater than they could write (as we called cursive). My girls still use cursive or their style of it, but it is so large it looks like grade school.
I tried to talk my kids into taking typing classes in summer school, but no luck. I bet now they wished they would have as it is a much needed skill today.
I assist in computer classes and would be so helpful if we could offer a keyboard class to these senior students as someone mentioned above..in my day also only business students took typing.
Now I also use a combination of both printing and writing.
Just wondering, how do teacher's decide what to teach?
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Just wondering, how do teacher's decide what to teach?
In the schools I've worked in or know about, there is a full curriculum all laid out of what is to be covered and in what order. There are also often Goals and Objectives that are defined as well as the rubrics for assessment.
In my district there were curriculum writing sessions in the summer when various grade levels met to decide the order of items to be taught, for how long, how that would be assessed for progress, etc. In addition there were vertical articulation meetings so that it was understood what would be taught in grade 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc. At the high school level the English Dept would meet and decide what plays/novels/composition components/concepts would be taught at which level.
Teachers in my district also spent sessions deciding on new textbooks when there was money available and comparing various ones to find the best for the students we had.
jane
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Looking at the examples of italic cursive, I find that is what I have moved to when I write. I did have very thorough penmanship classes, as did my children. They all print, now. One son had could not master cursive, printed illegibly, and learned the keyboard while in elementary school. I actually found someone to tutor him in cursive, because his teachers always graded him down, partly because of his terrible handwriting and partly because they could not decipher what he had written. Finally, when he was in high school, we asked that the teachers allow him to submit his homework using the word processor whenever possible. He was an honor student.
I have always had cramps in my hands from writing - perhaps going back to learning cursive, when I tensed up so much because I found it stressful. I don't know. I still write cards and short notes, but long letters are typed on the computer and printed off. We depend on our printers and have been fortunate to have had only two in the last 11 years, both HP.
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A fascinating subject!
We never learned cursive script - or heard the term. We learned Sűtterlin script, named for the man who created it as a simplification/revision of Old German.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/sutterlin
Just took a quick look back and, lo and behold, the link works.
You can see what the letters looked like. The books were printed in the same Gothic style. I did not like the long straight lines of the 's' and the 't' and the flourishes of the capital letters.
When Latin and English were added to the curriculum, we switched (we were switched!) to what was called "the Latin alphabet" (das lateinische Alphabet). I found it a great deal easier, the product looked cleaner and more fluid.
Later, when I took Russian, I had to master the cyrillic alphabet, which has a few 'extra' letters - e.g. for the sound of 'shch'. I admit it was quite a challenge and decidedly an experience. The class, small to begin with, dwindled to half a dozen. Five completed the course. The professor, who had written the textbook we were using, was an inspiration.
We too were graded on penmanship in high school, but also in orthography, with an emphasis on correct spelling - not only in German but in French and in English - as well as grammar. In that regard. nothing is more valuable of course than Latin, the mother of all languages.
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Thank you Jane.
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I'm left handed and cursive takes on another "curve" when one is left-handed. I am "mirror" left handed instead of "backwards lefthanded" if you understand what I mean.
I could never conquer cursive and many of my right handed friends couldn't either. Many of the boys simply printed.
I was a business student in high school and took 2 years of steno (Pitman). With all that writing, my handwriting improved dramatically. Today, I find it easier to type letters. At Christmas time I always enclose personal, handwritten notes in the Christmas cards I send, but that's about the extent of my writing.
I have an 87 year old Aunt who sends notes to me at Christmas and her handwriting is absolutely beautiful, with perfectly formed letters.
I guess cursive is a lost art.
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Our new president is left handed. Ever notice how he cups his hand when he writes, getting in his own way. Somewhere a teacher should have told him how to turn his paper in the opposite direction to that of the right handers; it would have made it so much easier.
Left- handed Sandra
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Oh Sandy and Evelyn, here we are -- three leftys in a row. I didn't know that about the President, guess I haven't been watching when he signed. He and I write the same way. I call it upside down. I remember the days of ball point pens -- I'd end up with a blue hand.
One of my four children is also left-handed. Her penmanship is pretty bad, too.
I took a summer typing course around junior high time, and then another later on, maybe in adulthood. Can't remember.
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My mother convinced me to take a summer typing course and I have always been glad. I typed college papers.. Hooray and then learned keyboarding later for computers. I think it is a useful skill for everyone.
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All college-prep students in my high-school had to take a typing course, thank goodnes! I have fibromyalgia and have had problems writing since the 1970's. I type w/ ease and very comfortably. ..........my son had very poor small motor skills and still has terrible writing. Everyone has mentioned sons' writing, do any of you who were elementary school teachers see that boys have more trouble than girls w/ cursive? Altho my husband has beautiful hand-writing, the nicest in our family.
I now write what i would call italic cursive - altho i never heard the term until you started this discussion - I don't know why i do that, i think it was quicker and easier than writing strictly Palmer method, since it's not a constant writing, but a stop and start, which gives my hand a chance to relax. I'd hate to see the teaching of cursive completely disappear, we can't always have a keyboard in front of us. (sending greeting cards has not completely disappeared, has it?) Also, i have a bias - seeing only printing makes me think that it's a "childish" behavior - my prejudice, of course, and one i know is not rational. ..............jean
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Isn't this interesting! LOOK at how many of us struggled with penmanship, who knew? WHY were they so hysterical about it then?
The issue tho is serious. It's like the stopping of teaching the multiplication tables (did you realize many schools have stopped doing that?) They reason you can use a calculator. I don't always have a calculator (do you?) and if you've ever driven thru McDonald's when the computer is not working you'll find out nobody can subtract either without one.
Now we will not write Cursive and if it's not taught who can read it anyway?
Can anybody think of ONE good reason children should be taught Cursive? I liked Pedln's grandchildren being proud of themselves way back early on in the discussion, for learning how.
I wonder how important it IS to be able to write it well tho.
I have a serious what they used to call "backhand" script which was absolutely anathema to my teachers, they had a FIT. The doggone thing should slant, not stand up straight.
In the Fourth Grade a girl called Geraldine Faustino (yes I still remember you Geraldine, are you out there? :)) came to our school from Italy. She was from Florence and said our penmanship here was nothing, she had had to labor to learn what I have to assume was Florentine script.
It was beautiful. I sat half the day yesterday in the auto shop reading this discussion and searching for it. I finally found it, a lot of those calling selves Florentine are not.
You can tell by the capital F and the T, and the capital G give it away. I thought it was the prettiest thing I ever saw as a child and copied it. Upright, of course. Here it is today with my twist on it:
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k290/gvinesc/Florentine.jpg)
I just slapped that down with no particular care to show the F and T. Today I can't find the site with the "right" script, all I can find are sites trying to sell a hybrid.
Unfortunately it takes time to write, and care to write, so for notes at lectures, a hideous mishmash ensued which no human can read, waste of time. I could not print fast enough to take notes, waste of time.
So I can occasionally write nicely, but I type so much it seems odd and I have to admit my hand gets very tired even with a letter, and it's very hard to even keep things on a straight line.
How will the students do the SAT writing sample if they can't write in hand?
Do they type on computers? Typewriting skills were not offered to us in High School unless you did the Business curriculum, that was a huge error. Taught self to type in old age by using Mavis Beacon, I'm not accurate but it beats one finger.
The Three R's: Reading Writing and Arithmetic (was that the third R?) are definitely taking a hit in 2009, are we better off or not?
The SAT's as you know have been upgraded as to scores, but have you ever seen a real McGuffey's reader? (I hope I spelled that correctly). I have and it nearly blew me out of the water.
I guess the article begs the question: ARE we better off now? SHOULD we try to keep some standards alive? Kids don't know their Times Tables, can't write cursive and can they read at the same level they once did? That we once did? Is that progress, do you think?
Am I the only one totally offended by the premise of the TV program Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?
What, in fact, are we doing to ourselves AND our children? Gee I got wound up here, all over penmanship! hahahahaaaaaaa Well what ARE we doing?
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Maybe there is still some use to learn to write cursive -- in case one becomes a famous person one might use it in signing autographs. But if no one wrote it, probably no one could still read it so that reason doesn't work.
How about important documents like the declaration of independence or Gettysburg address? How would you feel about them printed by a computer? And how could one tell if the copy were the original or not.
Lol. I give up. Somebody else better work on this solution.
Sandy
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Well that's the truth, about the Declaration of Independence! I wonder what handwriting experts would do with a lot of printing? Can they analyze printing?
Sandy you are a hoot: Maybe there is still some use to learn to write cursive -- in case one becomes a famous person one might use it in signing autographs
I love that! That's good enough for me, especially in this age of the Reality Show and You Tube and instant celebrity! I'm ready Mr. Demille! Am still waiting for my moment in the sun, maybe they could print prettily? Flourishes? hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I once wrote very carefully a note to a person who was in a position of what I thought was importance, sort of an outspoken person, actually, and she remarked, your handwriting is like a child's: all rounded. hahahaaa So I guess spiky shows maturity? hahaaa
Mabel remarks on the sending of greeting cards, now that's a good one, have they disappeared entirely? Maybe we should open up an op ed on "things that aren't there any more."
There is a DVD called that which actually is about half of my life, things that aren't there any more. The issue is do we miss them? Did we use them and were they of interest to us?
The holiday greeting card. I love to get them, have not sent one for years, have you?
I even like the printed holiday letters. I may be in a minority there, but I do like reading what's gone on and half the script that comes nowadays I can't read.
Reminds me of an aunt I once had whose penmanship nobody could read, her letters were always an event as people struggled to translate and spent MUCH more time on her letters than they would have typed.
I got up thinking that if they made cursive optional (but in these days that's not likely to happen) it may be that it would create its own vogue and become desirable simply because few could do it and those who could would seem somehow "in." Note the Reality Show The Real Housewives of New York City whose Countess is penning a book on Class. Class With the Countess. (Double entendre: it's about manners in our present time).
Evelyn, what does Mirror Left handed mean?
Sandy I had not noticed that the President was left handed but now that you mention it that's all I see in photographs!
Traude, what an interesting script: Sűtterlin script, very pretty.
Nlhome, I've wondered why cursive had to be so exact, and such stress (as it looks like it was for most of us here). I think a little individuality is a good thing, myself, but I also cramp up.
And I was interested in Jim's block print, a mix of capital and small letters, we are a fascinating lot. I guess it depends on whether or not you can read it, as Andrea said, quoting the article, just work on improving how well each student writes!
But can you print fast? I can't! Actually I can't print slowly!
Can any of you do shorthand? I understand that's also gone the way of the dodo, true?
Tell you what let's experiment! Set a timer? Start writing out something, doesn't matter what. Set a 1 minute timer and print as fast as you can. Set 1 minute again and write th same thing in cursive as fast as you can, no cheating!
Which one got the most words in? Which one is the most legible? I'd do well to get 2 printed words in, I'm going to try.. :)
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Actually I send mostly ecards.. They are so much more elaborate and fun.. I had a fit about the multipication ables. Anyone who owns or ever owned a store knows that computers go down,, cash registers have fits.. And none of your help ever can figure out change.. Drove me nuts when I was still in business. I spend hours with my help explaining counting up if necessary. Sigh.
Our younger son has horrid arithmetic problems. He simply does not cope with numbers. I know that we blamed part of his problems in the fact that he had a teacher that did not believe in the tables and insisted this was an instinctive act.. What bosh.. I had him tutored and worked with him and his brother worked with him, but in the end, we discovered that if it was what he called a real number ( money, etc) he could do it, he just could not deal with imaginary.. Hows that for silly.. But he always has a small calculator with him and is very very cautious about money..
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Tell you what let's experiment! Set a timer? Start writing out something, doesn't matter what. Set a 1 minute timer and print as fast as you can. Set 1 minute again and write th same thing in cursive as fast as you can, no cheating!
Which one got the most words in? Which one is the most legible? I'd do well to get 2 printed words in, I'm going to try.. :)[/color]
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Can't resist a challenge. I wrote 31 words a minute in cursive; 29 in printing. The printing was more legible by far. Cursive came close to being a scribble.
Sandy
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Ginny: You asked what "mirror left-handed" is....I don't write upside down like the president does. I hold my pen just as a right-handed person, but as Sandy said, tilt the paper in the opposite direction of a right-handed person. --- It works. My handwriting is not slanted backwards, or cramped, but upright.
About multiplication tables--- I volunteered in an afterschool program and couldn't believe it when I learned they were not teaching multiplication tables anymore. The retired teacher who was in charge of the program insisted we teach the students multiplication tables and wouldn't let them use their computers. So, after a lot of groaning and moaning, they learned to multiply. They also were absolutely mystified that all us old fogey adults could multiply in our heads. ;)
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Oh me too, I love things like this and I was almost shocked but should not have been at the result. Good thing I have a good timer on the stove.
(Had to laugh at the appearance I must have presented should anybody have been looking, hunched anxiously over the paper like a 4th grader, did bring back memories). Really hunched.
Strange and stranger. I thought to write a song since I didn't want to pause in the writing.
I wrote out Believe Me if All Those Endearing Young Charms, as fast as I could. In script I wrote 43 words, and can't read half of them, that's not a joke. I can't read them, so if I came back to that later I would not know unless I recognized the song, what the word was.
The printing was LABORIOUS! So hard, so difficult. I only got 33 words and I thought that minute would never end. hahahaaa :) It really WAS difficult to keep on, what a fascinating thing.
Sandy you had such close numbers! Wow, your results prompted me to see if there would be any difference in mine because I never print. There's not much in yours, that's super! The odd thing IS I can read the printed words. They are really sloppy but clear. And the small f is the sort of....old timey one, like Shakespeare, you'd think you'd not use that sort of thing when in a hurry. I guess I don't know any other way to make it.
The second odd thing IS that I kept trying to make shortcuts, + for "and" and then had to go back and fix it. The printing for me is MUCH slower, I think that would add up in an hour but who can write for an HOUR?
Stephanie, e cards are very nice, I think, especially that Jacquie Lawson site, very pretty.
I can identify with Math problems as remain to this day a math illiterate (is that an oxymoron?) Perhaps a math moron then. :)
They SAID our problem was we did not have the new math. Remember how you struggled with your children "helping" with the "new math?" Both my sons could do algebra and calculus, I imagine thanks TO the new math, while their mother, entering a store with XX and having bought two pencils on 25 percent off, struggled to figure out actually how much money was needed.
The math problems I liked always had picturesque items: there is a ladder leaning against the wall. The ladder is X feet from the wall. The sun casts a shadow of 40 degrees. How tall is the ladder? or some bosh like that. How many times in your adult lives have you USED that type of thing?
There are two trains approaching each other. One is going the speed of light, the other is moving thru many short stations. There is a cookie on the tracks. How long will it take train Y if the engineer takes a 5 minute pit stop, to crush the cookie?
Love those things. Am the best guesser in the world. Never got one right. So many delightful details, who needs numbers?
I remember once for some unknown reason i took Accounting in college. Do not ask why a Latin major took Accounting. Those were the days of student humiliation. The professor liked to liken your test results to the old game of Hot and Cold, the hotter the nearer the desired score. I have never understood to this day why the Balance Sheet MUST be equal. Surely somewhere in this world there is a person whose assets outnumber his liabilities. THE BALANCE SHEET is the cause of our banking dliemma today? Maybe? Never made sense to me.
Anyway from that you can well imagine the results. When he handed me my paper he memorably said "Merry Christmas."
hmpf.
But NOW my students at Osher tell me that the NEW MATH itself is defunct, is this true? What has replaced it?
A lovely round table evolving into education in general, love it.
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from Ginny --Oh me too, I love things like this and I was almost shocked but should not have been at the result. Good thing I have a good timer on the stove.
The printing was LABORIOUS! So hard, so difficult. I only got 33 words and I thought that minute would never end. hahahaaa :) It really WAS difficult to keep on, what a fascinating thing.
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Ginny, I had to laugh - I found printing so easy but got only 29; you struggled and got 33. So there we are. I do print a lot now keeping records of books read, to be read, and other things from being in three book discussion groups on another site. I was getting all mixed up so have a small notebook for each and a separate TBR (to be read list for those that appeal that others mention).
As long as this site stays with education I shall keep chiming in. Fifteen plus years of teaching gives me lots to say. The new math is gone as far as I know. The top math students grasped the concepts and flew with them. The average and below struggled. I think it set them back in math in general. Parents found it impossible to help with homework. It also required teaching a whole new vocabulary as well as math. Dumb idea somebody had I think. We saw fads in teaching come and go.
Then after no longer teaching because of newly adopted son aged 10 I landed on jr./sr. high regional school board as curriculum chair for 6 and 1/2 yr, so was up to my ears in math and reading there. Fortunately the jr. and sr. high school did not get involved in handwriting.
It is funny. My two sons are 22 years apart in age. One had me on the faculty from his k-6 grades; the other had me in his school on the schoolboard from grades 7-12.
Sandra
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If your teachers were nuns, YOU LEARNED CURSIVE. And years ago you learned it with a metal tipped wooden pen dipped into an inkwell. No ifs ands or but. And no blots. \
It is a beautiful art form and will soon become like calligraphy which some people take up as a hobby.
I have some cursive writing from my grandfather who never went beyond eighth grade. Bold heavy down stokes, delicate upward stokes, everything slanted at the same angle. Gorgeous.
I dont see the Chinese giving up their character writing, or the Arabs. In fact, I think that since Islam does not permit depiction of living beings, the decoration of their walls etc. is beautifully stylized written sayings from the Koran.
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Bellemere: "And years ago you learned it with a metal tipped wooden pen dipped into an inkwell." Yes, me, too, and you had to compromise between taking up so much ink that you got a blob on a and e, etc and taking up so little that you had to keep re-dipping. And for southpaws like me, it was a special misery to avoid smudging what you had just written.
You bet I noticed right off that our new president is left handed.
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Oh me,, I cannot believe it, but like Ginny, I wrote a lot faster, but cannot read a word. Printed,, slow slow slow, but readable. Says something. I do have a cousin who writes beautifully.. Always has, I used to be so envious. Her handwriting is perfectly even, loops filled.. she got a+ in writing.. Our whole family is writing deficient.. Husband, both sons and me.. But then my Dad who was a leftie like me wrote as cramped as I do. I think it was the old ball point pens which smeared the side of my hand as I drug it across the paper. Lovely computers,, no more ink stains..
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SANDY, I didn't take the 'test', but my experience has been much the same. My cursive is faster, but illegible. I first started printing when I broke my right
elbow many years ago and was in a cast for ages. My colleagues were unkind enough,...or honest enough...to tell me my left-handed printing was much more readable.
Quote from Ginny: But NOW my students at Osher tell me that the NEW MATH itself is defunct.
Oh, I do hope not. The New Math was introduced when my son was in school,
and parents were invited to come see what it was all about. It was such good preparation for higher math, that I found myself wishing they had taught it that way when I was in school.
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I think college ruined my cursive handwriting. My writing was okay and readable before that. Trying to keep up with the college professors made me scribble so much that I couldn't read what I wrote later. Unfortunately, I still have trouble slowing down. If I get "frantic" with my writing I cannot read it.
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Talking Heads
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A two week forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online: bring your ideas and let's discuss.
First up: Is Cursive Writing Dead?
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/cursive.jpg)
Recently in the Christian Science Monitor, The Boston Globe, the Washington Post and Newsweek a debate has arisen concerning the teaching of Cursive Writing.
Here is the original article in the Christian Science Monitor:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1114/p13s01-legn.html?s=hns
Do we need to teach or use cursive writing any more? Is penmanship dead? What's the Palmer Method?
What's YOUR opinion? Read the short article and then weigh in!
How's YOUR handwriting?
Discussion Leader: Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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I didn't bother to take the test because I know I write much faster than I print. It's not beautiful, but if I'm not going too fast, it's quite legible.
I like handwriting, but I'm more upset at the loss of arithmetic skills. If your handwriting's no good, you can do the same thing by printing, but if you can't do simple arithmetic in your head, how are you going to know if you're shortchanged, etc? You can't always pull out a calculator.
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My dgt was in elementary school in the late 70's in the era of "new math." She never learned multiplication tables, they did multiplication in something called "sets" which sounded way more complicated than just memorizing what 8x8 was. My son, who is 4 yrs younger had an entirely different education - altho in the same schools and sometimes from the same teachers. I think our kids have been "lab rats" in experimentations about how to educate our children. Our dgt had no geography, our son is a whiz in georgraphy and as a history teacher, i have no clue how you teach history w/out teaching geography, so i made my freshmen college students in Amer Hist learn the states on the map. To some it was old hat, to others it was brand new. Sad! ............but there is so much more for teachers to teach these days and the standards are way above what we learned in each grade.............my grandson, in first grade, knows words i know i couldn't read until 3rd or 4th grade and knows concepts i know i didn't know until jr or sr high school, or later...........................I like the Obama admin throwing out the idea of longer school yrs. For some high schools the days have actually gotten shorter than when i was in school. Our schl day was over about 3 o'clock, but i recently spoke to teachers in a high schl where the day ended at 1:20! They are a large geograhic district and have to bus nearly everybody, so the high school students have to get out and bussed home that early so the grade school children can get home at a reasonable time.................again, bigger is not always better.....................jean
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Exactly, Frybabe, note-taking in college was the culprit! One had to be fast to get the gist! Some words would be lost, some only I could decipher . With personal correspondence I took greater care, of course.
My "freedom" began with the purchase of an Olivetti typewriter, a portable one. I produced my thesis on it half a century ago. It was used and I can't remember how I came by it. In those days one had to barter...
Ginny, it would be a shame to drop cursive from the curriculum. My grandchildren were eager writers from the start, Hannah, three years younger than her brother, was always a keen imitator and competitor. Both have what is called a beautiful hand. Both are exceptional students. Until now, I'm afraid, I have taken all that for granted. Mea culpa. BTW, Hannah reads voraciously, but my grandson (12 and in 7th grade) is a reluctant reader. Typical? He takes Latin though, and I'm grateful for that. I would so like to know where he and the class is, but it isn't in my nature to pry.
Your thoughtful post the other day very much resonated with me, you are definitely not alone. I wonder whether we could/should define exactly what attributes make someone 'smarter' than another.
Love this discussion.
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Evelyn, I am so sorry, apparently in the eons it takes me to type posts, you posted and I missed your post, sorry!
Thank you for explaining the back hand thing. Loved this one: They also were absolutely mystified that all us old fogey adults could multiply in our heads.
Isn't that something!!! Love it. Maybe the cure to modern education is for us old fogeys to tutor, I know a lot of people have done it and are doing it.
Sandy, wow, 22 years apart! And wow you're certainly qualified to speak on curriculum, were you there when they replaced the new math (Babi, it's gone!) and what now is it replaced with?
I'm with Frybabe and Steph, the faster I try to write (which is all the time) cursive or have had to write it in past situations, the more illegible it becomes.
Evelyn mentioned an 87 year old aunt with a beautiful penmanship, my own mother into her 90s took great care with her "hand," and it was really pretty and distinctive. Now we're all in a hurry, me included. I still have notes on the fly leaf of some of my textbooks, when I ran out of paper: totally illegible. Why write if you can't read it later on?
I remember the "new English." It came out in the early 60's. Had a strange name. Went by speech patterns instead of grammar, out with the diagramming in with the speech patterns of the street...I KNOW! TRANSFORMATIONAL GRAMMAR!
Everybody who speaks those words should do penance. You can imagine how long THAT lasted, what however has taken its place?
Gone are the days you can triumphantly stand up at a blackboard and say "The Dative is the case of the Indirect Object," and see lights come on in the eyes of the class. More like huh?
Does it matter? er...YEAH!
Pat and Bellmere, I am so interested in these ink things you learned to write with. My first desks in school had places for inkwells but I missed it! Just as well, huh? hahahaa
Traude, do ask your grandson where he is, inquiring minds would like to know! Latin will do him a world of good, so glad he's taking it. At least ask what book they are using?
What an interesting question you pose, what makes one person smarter than another. Since we're discussing education here,what do you all think?
Are there different kinds of "smarts?"
Mabel, what an interesting post, and you're right, so many changes. Are you sure you did not know those words?
The McGuffy (we're all too young to have had it) (or are we?) First Readers were a long shot from Dick and Jane. They have redone them for our modern eyes, did you know that? Not half what they were. To see an original with the original vocab you have to get one OF the originals, otherwise you're reading a hybrid.
To me, the premise of "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader" is insulting. It takes specific curricula taught, probably some kind of national standard, and then poses the questions on THAT specific material. The upshot is the adults who have not studied that particular material are made to feel foolish while the various schools are made to feel proud (leaving the obviously bright children entirely out of this, it's really not about them). What do you call something like this? Specious, a specious argument, in spades.
SMARTER is not knowing the Lenape Indian tribes, which we were taught in the 5th grades. Other than Mable, I expect nobody here has ever studied them, so does the accumulation of arcane facts make one smart?
Or what does? Good question, Traude!
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I think that the New Math was good for above average students, who loved the theory. I know my older son adored it and I agreed with him. We both love math. My husband and my younger son hate math and the New Math never made sense to them.
I was telling MDH about this discussion. His writing is like a demented chicken.. But he was outraged that anyone would stop teaching cursive. He regards it as an art form and talks about how lovely it is when done well. After some question, I realized that he is talking of the Palmer method, which I do remember from my long ago elementary school days.
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Actually, I was pretty good at taking notes. Especially if you had a well-organized lecturer. A good one had specific topics that they covered, with specific 'main points' in each one. With one teacher I could actually take notes in outline...ie., 1. A,B,C..2, A.B.C., etc. It's impossible to 'note' every word, but if you get the major ideas down, you have what you need to review later.
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OK folks, does anybody here TEXT? I think an interesting experiment would be to compare cursive (or printing) with a grandchild texting a message on his cellphone. My son thinks I should learn to TEXT because of my poor hearing, and I ask him, "Just who do you think I will TEXT with? None of my friends TEXT." One of my daughters tried to teach me, but when I got my cell bill I noticed they charged .20 for each message -- sent or received. Forget that.
My children did well in math, and I lay it all on my mother, an elementary teacher, who taught them place value using pennies, dimes, and other small change. "How many 'ones' do you see? How many 'tens'? If they got it right, they got the money. Good incentive. Music was a different matter. My mother insisted there was no such thing as a monotone -- and then she came up against two of mine. I can still hear her trying to get them to sing broken chords --Mom- What do you like? (with melody) Kid --I like ice cream. (all on one note.) :-[
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Just coming into this discussion - interesting to say the least....
I learned to write cursive - it was called Copperplate - we used pen and ink - a metal nib in a wooden holder - and yes, Ginny we used the inkwells set into the desks. (Horrible job being the Ink Monitor and having to mix the ink and fill the wells every day - and woe betide me if I spilled a drop!).
Copperplate is a rather nice hand - fine upstrokes and heavier downstrokes. My parents both learned an earlier version of it which was more decorative and even in her 90s my mother still retained one of the clearest and most legible hands I've seen. (She was often asked to write invitations for weddings etc). I still write OK - well it's legible and easy to read - and can write at a good speed but I am not very fast or good with printing. I remember being so pleased when we began to learn the Copperplate because 'printing' was for the babies.
Once cursive writing of all kinds is phased out of the curriculum I daresay it will become a 'craft' and people will flock to evening classes to discover how it's done...much easier to learn as a child. Copperplate is already part of the Calligraphers' art along with Uncial, Italic, Secretary's Hand and several other handwriting styles. Secretary's Hand is fairly difficult to decipher and makes tracking old records for genealogy difficult at times but it's nothing to the German one Traude mentioned which I've had nightmares trying to read.
If the powers that be discard cursive handwriting and then noone knows how to read it - they then discard spelling and maths - (Spellcheck and calculator can take care of those) we might find ourselves back in the dark ages when the population was largely illiterate. How many (or few) generations has it been since elementary education became compulsory.
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Except for the topics that weren't being taught when i was in school, when i watch "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader" I am constantly saying to myself - "I know i knew that at one point in my life, but i've had no reason to think about it for 5 decades!"
When i first met my husband in college, he was a biology major, and told me in 1962 that there were many kinds of "smart." Because of thinking about that, i constantly tell my students to never think of someone else as "stupid," or whatever word they use these days for someone who does not have the same knowledge that they do. We've all had such different experiences that have brought us into contact w/ some knowledge and not other knowledge and we cannot make a judgement about what, or why, others don't know what we know. Also, we all have different brains that provide us w/ different skills. So, some of us can sing (Pedin's mother) and others can't (Pedin's children) :P and some of us can see a scene and replicate it in a beautiful picture and others of us can't begin to draw a tree. As i said somewhere on this site before, my brother and my son can, and will, do anything w/ their hands, are great problem solvers of "things," while i love working w/ concepts rather than things. I could go on and on but you all know what i'm talking about.
I had inkwells in my desks and we used the metal nib/wooden holder pen also. That was kind of fun for me.
Yes, Ginny, i have studied the Lenape Indians, but not until i got to NJ in the 1970's. One of the interesting aspects of the Deleware Nations was that when a couple got married, the husband moved into the longhouse of the wife's family and if he didn't "behave" she could simply put his belongings outside the door and they were finished! In some tribes, the women were the "owners" of the "house."
They were also matrilineal tribes. The line of descent was thru the woman's line and altho the chiefs were men, they were the sons of the most important woman in the tribe, selected by the recommendation of the women! And the Europeans tho't they were savages!?! At the time, women in Europe had no legal rights at all once they were married...................which society was smarter/more advanced for women?....................jean
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Evelyn, I am so sorry, apparently in the eons it takes me to type posts, you posted and I missed your post, sorry!
Thank you for explaining the back hand thing. Loved this one: They also were absolutely mystified that all us old fogey adults could multiply in our heads.
Isn't that something!!! Love it. Maybe the cure to modern education is for us old fogeys to tutor, I know a lot of people have done it and are doing it.
Sandy, wow, 22 years apart! And wow you're certainly qualified to speak on curriculum, were you there when they replaced the new math (Babi, it's gone!) and what now is it replaced with?
I'm with Frybabe and Steph, the faster I try to write (which is all the time) cursive or have had to write it in past situations, the more illegible it becomes.
Evelyn mentioned an 87 year old aunt with a beautiful penmanship, my own mother into her 90s took great care with her "hand," and it was really pretty and distinctive. Now we're all in a hurry, me included. I still have notes on the fly leaf of some of my textbooks, when I ran out of paper: totally illegible. Why write if you can't read it later on?
I remember the "new English." It came out in the early 60's. Had a strange name. Went by speech patterns instead of grammar, out with the diagramming in with the speech patterns of the street...I KNOW! TRANSFORMATIONAL GRAMMAR!
Everybody who speaks those words should do penance. You can imagine how long THAT lasted, what however has taken its place?
Gone are the days you can triumphantly stand up at a blackboard and say "The Dative is the case of the Indirect Object," and see lights come on in the eyes of the class. More like huh?
Does it matter? er...YEAH!
Pat and Bellmere, I am so interested in these ink things you learned to write with. My first desks in school had places for inkwells but I missed it! Just as well, huh? hahahaa
Traude, do ask your grandson where he is, inquiring minds would like to know! Latin will do him a world of good, so glad he's taking it. At least ask what book they are using?
What an interesting question you pose, what makes one person smarter than another. Since we're discussing education here,what do you all think?
Are there different kinds of "smarts?"
Mabel, what an interesting post, and you're right, so many changes. Are you sure you did not know those words?
The McGuffy (we're all too young to have had it) (or are we?) First Readers were a long shot from Dick and Jane. They have redone them for our modern eyes, did you know that? Not half what they were. To see an original with the original vocab you have to get one OF the originals, otherwise you're reading a hybrid.
To me, the premise of "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader" is insulting. It takes specific curricula taught, probably some kind of national standard, and then poses the questions on THAT specific material. The upshot is the adults who have not studied that particular material are made to feel foolish while the various schools are made to feel proud (leaving the obviously bright children entirely out of this, it's really not about them). What do you call something like this? Specious, a specious argument, in spades.
SMARTER is not knowing the Lenape Indian tribes, which we were taught in the 5th grades. Other than Mable, I expect nobody here has ever studied them, so does the accumulation of arcane facts make one smart?
Or what does? Good question, Traude!
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Evelyn, I am so sorry, apparently in the eons it takes me to type posts, you posted and I missed your post, sorry!
Thank you for explaining the back hand thing. Loved this one: They also were absolutely mystified that all us old fogey adults could multiply in our heads.
Isn't that something!!! Love it. Maybe the cure to modern education is for us old fogeys to tutor, I know a lot of people have done it and are doing it.
Sandy, wow, 22 years apart! And wow you're certainly qualified to speak on curriculum, were you there when they replaced the new math (Babi, it's gone!) and what now is it replaced with?
I'm with Frybabe and Steph, the faster I try to write (which is all the time) cursive or have had to write it in past situations, the more illegible it becomes.
Evelyn mentioned an 87 year old aunt with a beautiful penmanship, my own mother into her 90s took great care with her "hand," and it was really pretty and distinctive. Now we're all in a hurry, me included. I still have notes on the fly leaf of some of my textbooks, when I ran out of paper: totally illegible. Why write if you can't read it later on?
I remember the "new English." It came out in the early 60's. Had a strange name. Went by speech patterns instead of grammar, out with the diagramming in with the speech patterns of the street...I KNOW! TRANSFORMATIONAL GRAMMAR!
Everybody who speaks those words should do penance. You can imagine how long THAT lasted, what however has taken its place?
Gone are the days you can triumphantly stand up at a blackboard and say "The Dative is the case of the Indirect Object," and see lights come on in the eyes of the class. More like huh?
Does it matter? er...YEAH!
Pat and Bellmere, I am so interested in these ink things you learned to write with. My first desks in school had places for inkwells but I missed it! Just as well, huh? hahahaa
Traude, do ask your grandson where he is, inquiring minds would like to know! Latin will do him a world of good, so glad he's taking it. At least ask what book they are using?
What an interesting question you pose, what makes one person smarter than another. Since we're discussing education here,what do you all think?
Are there different kinds of "smarts?"
Mabel, what an interesting post, and you're right, so many changes. Are you sure you did not know those words?
The McGuffy (we're all too young to have had it) (or are we?) First Readers were a long shot from Dick and Jane. They have redone them for our modern eyes, did you know that? Not half what they were. To see an original with the original vocab you have to get one OF the originals, otherwise you're reading a hybrid.
To me, the premise of "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader" is insulting. It takes specific curricula taught, probably some kind of national standard, and then poses the questions on THAT specific material. The upshot is the adults who have not studied that particular material are made to feel foolish while the various schools are made to feel proud (leaving the obviously bright children entirely out of this, it's really not about them). What do you call something like this? Specious, a specious argument, in spades.
SMARTER is not knowing the Lenape Indian tribes, which we were taught in the 5th grades. Other than Mable, I expect nobody here has ever studied them, so does the accumulation of arcane facts make one smart?
Or what does? Good question, Traude!
Evelyn, I am so sorry, apparently in the eons it takes me to type posts, you posted and I missed your post, sorry!
Thank you for explaining the back hand thing. Loved this one: They also were absolutely mystified that all us old fogey adults could multiply in our heads.
Isn't that something!!! Love it. Maybe the cure to modern education is for us old fogeys to tutor, I know a lot of people have done it and are doing it.
Sandy, wow, 22 years apart! And wow you're certainly qualified to speak on curriculum, were you there when they replaced the new math (Babi, it's gone!) and what now is it replaced with?
I'm with Frybabe and Steph, the faster I try to write (which is all the time) cursive or have had to write it in past situations, the more illegible it becomes.
Evelyn mentioned an 87 year old aunt with a beautiful penmanship, my own mother into her 90s took great care with her "hand," and it was really pretty and distinctive. Now we're all in a hurry, me included. I still have notes on the fly leaf of some of my textbooks, when I ran out of paper: totally illegible. Why write if you can't read it later on?
I remember the "new English." It came out in the early 60's. Had a strange name. Went by speech patterns instead of grammar, out with the diagramming in with the speech patterns of the street...I KNOW! TRANSFORMATIONAL GRAMMAR!
Everybody who speaks those words should do penance. You can imagine how long THAT lasted, what however has taken its place?
Gone are the days you can triumphantly stand up at a blackboard and say "The Dative is the case of the Indirect Object," and see lights come on in the eyes of the class. More like huh?
Does it matter? er...YEAH!
Pat and Bellmere, I am so interested in these ink things you learned to write with. My first desks in school had places for inkwells but I missed it! Just as well, huh? hahahaa
Traude, do ask your grandson where he is, inquiring minds would like to know! Latin will do him a world of good, so glad he's taking it. At least ask what book they are using?
What an interesting question you pose, what makes one person smarter than another. Since we're discussing education here,what do you all think?
Are there different kinds of "smarts?"
Mabel, what an interesting post, and you're right, so many changes. Are you sure you did not know those words?
The McGuffy (we're all too young to have had it) (or are we?) First Readers were a long shot from Dick and Jane. They have redone them for our modern eyes, did you know that? Not half what they were. To see an original with the original vocab you have to get one OF the originals, otherwise you're reading a hybrid.
To me, the premise of "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader" is insulting. It takes specific curricula taught, probably some kind of national standard, and then poses the questions on THAT specific material. The upshot is the adults who have not studied that particular material are made to feel foolish while the various schools are made to feel proud (leaving the obviously bright children entirely out of this, it's really not about them). What do you call something like this? Specious, a specious argument, in spades.
SMARTER is not knowing the Lenape Indian tribes, which we were taught in the 5th grades. Other than Mable, I expect nobody here has ever studied them, so does the accumulation of arcane facts make one smart?
Or what does? Good question, Traude!
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Sorry, I am messing up the quotes. I could not find space for reply to Ginny. Anyway yes, here we studied the Delaware and Lenni Lenape Indians. As far as I know they are still being taught in fourth grade. Much of what was taught about Thanksgiving was misinformation. There are great books out now for children who tell it correctly. Turkeys probably were not a part of the menu for instance.
A child psychiatrist told me once that there are seven types of intelligence -- the one we measure on IQ tests, people skills, artistic ability, athletic ability with its superb coordination, mechanical aptitude, and I forget the rest. Maybe math and vocabulary skills count in there somewhere other than part of IQ testing.
I regret that diagramming sentences went out of style. It was such a help on term papers and college writing assignments. As to new math it was being phased out gradually during the late 1980's here I think.
In our state which I think has a good educational system in most places we spent near the top of the 50 states in per child spending. May even be first, I am no longer sure. I know we teach algebra in eighth grade instead of high school here and allow honors students to take college level courses and receive credit for them in college, often allowing graduation there in three years instead of four.
My sons got great educations for them here. The elder was an honors student who loved languages so much the school let him go without lunch period each day so he could take all the languages he wanted while prepping for a career in engineering. The younger was a learning disabled special needs child who lettered in three varsity sports for three years and was president of the student council. He also represented the school for the tri county good sportsmanship award. So one way or another I pretty much saw it all.
And today guess which one is worried about job security? And which one works for the state with pension and benefits? Many metallurgical engineers work with steel companies in R and D for the US automakers. So life plays some odd tricks.
Sandy
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Here are 2 sites for steel pen nibs:
http://hans.presto.tripod.com/nibs/spencerian.html (http://hans.presto.tripod.com/nibs/spencerian.html)
http://www.zanerian.com/NibCatpg2.JPG (http://www.zanerian.com/NibCatpg2.JPG)
The second is Esterbrook nibs. Remember Esterbrook? You would buy a fountain pen for (I think) $2, and you could get many different styles of screw-in points for it. I used them for decades. Apparently even these are now collector's items, and the plain nibs even more so.
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Pat: Oh, I forgot about the Esterbrook nibs. I had those, and it was such fun to practice with them.... Memories, memories... It takes me back to the dining room table and doing homework and all those ink blobs.
I remember learning to write with fountain pens, and what a mess. And then ball point pens came out, and messy, messy hands.
On a different tack... have you seen that they find that daily physical education in school makes a difference in the students grades. In Texas they tried it and found the students "think better". Gee, they think they discovered something new.
When I was in school, we had P.E. everyday day in both grammar school and high school. I loved softball, volley ball was so so, but I found my home in the swimming pool and have been swimming ever since.
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PatH Thanks for the links to the metal nibs...a great reminder though obviously we didn't have those particular brands in this part of the world.
I wrote with a fountain pen until about 1990 both at work and at home. I still do sometimes and always when I'm writing personal notes.
I took classes in Calligraphy about five years ago - something I always wanted to do - I love the elaborate capitals and decorative styles...so I have amassed a small collection of nibs, holders and other paraphenalia but sadly I just didn't have the time to practice and practice one must! - Perhaps I'll find the time to practice this year? next year? ...H'mm seems unlikely.
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'does the accumulation of arcane facts make one smart?' (from SANDY)
IMO, accumulation of facts is information/knowledge. 'Smart' is the ability to sort, compare, question, correlate and extrapolate from those facts. Some 'facts' did me very little good, as I wasn't interested in them or had no talent/gift in that area. Others were like good food, swallowed happily and digested well, promoting growth.
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wonderful comment, Babi..................jean
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Never used the pens. We had inkwells, but no ink.. Thank heaven, I had long pigtails and I am sure they would have ended up black and not blonde. Bad enough to get tugged at all the time.
It is interesting to think that sometime cursive may end up being a craft.. I know love to see Calligraphy, but cannot do it..
Texting.. oh me,, our granddaughter decided her Grandpa ( who is her love) must learn to text. So she taught him, Nana declined to learn. Now that he learned, she sighed and said,, dont text me any more because it counts on my phone and Daddy takes the phone if I go over my limit.. Sigh.. Poor Grandpa..
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:( Ain't it the truth. But teaching Grandpa did make her happy. Maybe one of these days they'll switch to the 'unlimited' family hours. 8)
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I hope so.. Grandpa does send her pictures because they dont count on her program. This is her first year on the family plan and our son and wife are being strict with her. Before she had a pay as you go phone and was always running out of minutes.
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The amount of time young people can spend on the phone has become legendary. I can't fault her parents for keeping a lid on the situation. Nice to know pictures don't count for text time. I've never had such a phone, so I know very little about them. Now, of course, a personal phone would be pointless...I'm about 95% deaf! :-\
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Babi, run, don't walk to CapTel -- you can use your computer to get captions as you speak on the telephone. I won't go into details, you can get them at this link. As I've mentioned before, I have a captioned telephone, courtesy of my state, and as time goes on I find it more and more helpful. But with the Web CapTel I can sit with my cell phone and read the captions on the computer screen. I have used my regular captioned phone with WEB captel because more of the conversation shows at one time -- just what the other person is saying, not what you're saying. This is free.
WEB CapTel (https://www.sprintcaptel.com/index.asp)
I've only called out on WEB Captel, have not tried having people call me.
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I love cell phones, because my hearing aids work well with them. Regular phones , no they dont work that well for me.
I just spent some time looking up Palmer Method on Handwriting. Alas my handwriting never ever looked like that, but I do remember sitting in elementary school and looping over and over to learn how to make certain letters.
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PEDLN, I don't own a cell phone, but we do have an extension phone that one can walk about with. Would that work just as well, do you know? What a great help that would be!
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Babi, I think and extension phne would work. Check the link. Also, they're very helpful in responding to emails, etc.
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Thanks, PEDLN. I'll do that now.
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As far as penmanship goes, I was so concentrated on how to form the letters that I had no brain left for what letters they were. College ruined whatever style I had. Babi's comment about some lecturers being well organized, mostly I got ones that wandered all over the place. Lots of interesting stories but the mid-terms were always about the reading; wonder if I could have skipped class and just read? Speaking of which can someone explain why at Oxford they say someone "reads" history?
I use the prepaid cell phone. One in my purse and one stays in the car - I don't have to scurry around looking for it when it rings. Costs around $10/mo. Since most of my calls are to family reminding them to pick up milk on the way home, seems silly to pay more. Still use the landline for major gabbing. Texting seems so slow. I've never had a PDA, couldn't see myself using that tiny little tool to input data. Give me a keyboard anytime. And a mouse - I use a mouse with my laptop. That little rectangle at the bottom, fugeddaboutit!
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Jackie - in reading the book about Bill Clinton "First in His Class," while he was at Oxford, it sounded like he "read" books and then dicussed them w/ a "don." I had a great graduate class like that where i read about women in the MIddle Ages and then had lunch w/ the advisor and talked about the book and the woman subject of the book..........that was my FAVORITE grad class!! ;D ;D ................jean
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Yes, I believe in England that the tutor assigns reading in what will be your specialty and then you read and see them on a scheduled interval.
I would have loved that in college. I hated lecture type classes.. Especially the chemistry ones that required a lot of note taking without know what the heck I needed.
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a lot of note taking without know what the heck I needed.
That made me smile, STEPH. In our frequent moving about when I was growing up, I apparently missed a basic science course. Then I found myself in a high school physics class, having no idea whatsoever what these people were talking about!
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Babi, I did not move at all after WWII, but went to a rural school. When I hit college, this straight
A student did not understand a single word of the chemistry lectures and almost set herself on fire in the lab.. Sigh.
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If it weren't for Chem 101 I might have become a physician. Imagine my surprise when Ira Flatow, host of NPR's Science Friday, said he flunked it too! With such company as you, Steph, and Ira, I don't feel so bad.
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Oh I did too, I actually flunked Organic Chemistry in high school, we had a visiting Professor from CA whose husband had been transferred to the area, and she offered in high school Organic 101 and Inorganic 102, HIGH SCHOOL.; It was magical, I had no idea what she was saying but I enjoyed her saying it.
I have loved our discussion here, which has been far ranging, starting with cursive penmanship going the way of the dodo and moving into Education in general, thank you all.
The idea of this discussion was to now move to another article for discussion, do any of you have one on any topic you'd like to see us discuss?
It has to be readable online. I just read a super one in Newsweek but it's on Education again, let's change topics and see what you'd like to discuss in the news.
Super beginning, thank you! Let's keep it going!
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Just for the record, Ginny, Organic Chemistry is usually the course that colleges use to flunk out half the pre-med and chemistry students.
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I didn't even get that far! We had a brand new terxt bookk, it had no pictures. they changed books the next year and it had pix on every page! I couldn't identify my unknown (qualitative analysis), got only as far as the chemical family.
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I passed chemistry, but don't ask if it were organic or inorganic. I remember three things. 1) for the final exam you would draw a piece of paper from a basket and it would say either acids or bases or one other topic. Then you would write everything you knew about that topic. 2) One day we had a sub and some boys threw sodium down the sink. That was exciting! 3) One day we made a gas -- hyrdocloric? not sure. I couldn't see it, so decided to smell it. Not a smart thing to do.
Ginny, this Talking Heads has been a great addition to SeniorLearn. Interesting and lots of fun.
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I never got around to mentioning my friend who writes 3 page letters in beautiful calligraphy. He doesn't write all that often, but I don't think it's the calligraphy that slows him down.
I agree, great topic.
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hahaa, it's a wonder any of us survived high school lab. I'm trying to remember what I DO remember about HS science, the smell of the formaldehyde. I had the infamous.....something with a carapace, surely we weren't dissecting lobsters, but it had a carapace. Crab seems unlikely.
(Now SEE? We did learn something!) haahhaaa
Wow on the Organic Chemistry, Pat? Who knew? I feel a little better. In my case it took very little to push me over hahahaa, who KNEW there was so much math? (We can see right here a problem?) haahaha
But I did go on to be a Geology Lab assistant in college, so maybe my talent is not...oops, can't say that either. least said, soonest mended. :)
I am so glad you all have enjoyed this new addition. We'll be off on another topic next week. :)
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WOW! I just found this site, and have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of the posts. They bring back so many memories. I remember learning cursive, and using an inkwell. When I got to high school, my mother insisted that I take a typing class. She told me that if I could type, I would always be able to get a job. Although I was college prep, I was allowed in the class. Knowing how to type has served me well. Now, with computers, it comes in handy.
I remember too, my parents complaining about my being taught "sight reading". They worked with me to learn to breakdown words. My sight reading still cause me problems, now and then. I am grateful that I can do both. When new math came into fashion, I was lost. Sure couldn't help my children with their homework. Math never was my strong suit.
When I was a Senior in high school, I was able to take some classes, across the street at the junior college. I took French for a year, and English. In high school I had a semester of Latin, and a semester of German. I stayed in Germany with my son, and his family, and to my surprise I was able to speak, and understand the language pretty well. My two visits to Germany were 50+ years after my high school German.
I am looking forward to the next discussion.
Sheila
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Talking Heads
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A two week forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online: bring your ideas and let's discuss.
First up: Is Cursive Writing Dead?
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/cursive.jpg)
Recently in the Christian Science Monitor, The Boston Globe, the Washington Post and Newsweek a debate has arisen concerning the teaching of Cursive Writing.
Here is the original article in the Christian Science Monitor:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1114/p13s01-legn.html?s=hns
Do we need to teach or use cursive writing any more? Is penmanship dead? What's the Palmer Method?
What's YOUR opinion? Read the short article and then weigh in!
How's YOUR handwriting?
Discussion Leader: Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
Sheila: Welcome. This discussion has been fun. Wonder what the next topic will be? I can't think of a way to browse the web for articles. I do so little online reading. Maybe Slate . . .
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This has been fun, but I dont have another news item to discuss. I dont really read articles that much on line. Tend to do newspapers for that sort of thing. Something perhaps on the death of newspapers?? any other newspaper fans out there?
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Ginny, here's an article that looks like it might be interesting. It's titled:
"How to Predict What You'd Like? Ask a Stranger." It's a Time Mag. article.
See what you think.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1886607,00.html
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OH Babi, I love that. hahaha
I had just found, (Stephanie!) an article on how the loss of newspapers will change small towns. hahahaa
If it's AP it's usually on the internet.
And one on Xanadu, the biggest Mall in the World, opening in the Meadowlands of NJ in an economic crisis, that would seem to lend itself to Malls vs Hometown stores vs the Wal Marts of the world. I still like both of those too, but I like this one especially for the subject: happiness and what predicts it best.
We'll do that one, I love that, I found this fascinating:
Indeed, Gilbert and his co-authors cite previous research showing people's scant ability to predict their future feelings about most things: "people have been shown to overestimate how unhappy they will be after receiving bad test results, becoming disabled or being denied a promotion, and to overestimate how happy they will be after winning a prize, initiating a romantic relationship or taking revenge against those who have harmed them."
Hold on a mo and we'll get something up!
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Talking Heads ~ Cursive Writing is locked and will be archived soon
Talking Heads ~ The Pursuit of Happiness (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=382.new#new)
Come join the new topic -- The Pursuit of Happiness.