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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/teamofrivals/teamcvr.jpg) | Team of Rivals
by
Doris Kearns Goodwin
"More books about Abraham Lincoln line the shelves of libraries than about any other American. Can there be anything new to say about our 16th president? Surprisingly, the answer is yes. - ..... Doris Kearns Goodwin has written an elegant, incisive study of Lincoln......." - New York Times
The Team:
William H. Seward
Salmon P. Chase
Edward Bates
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Links:
NPR Review (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4989622)
Wilmot Proviso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmot_Proviso)
Dred Scott Decision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford)
Kansas-Nebraska Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas-Nebraska_Act)
Fugitive Slave Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Law_of_1850)
Discussion Leaders: (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com)Ella & (rjhighet@earthlink.net)PatH
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CHICAGO 1860. THE REPUBLICAN PARTY CONVENTION. WIGWAM HALL.
It was here that Abraham Lincoln won the nomination for the presidency despite the fact that three other candidates, rivals for the position, were powerful men, educated men, wealthy men from the states of New York, Ohio and Missouri.
It is here that Doris Kearns Goodwin, begins her wonderful book, TEAM OF RIVALS, a book that took her ten years to research and complete and the one she claims is her best book and her very best character to write about in all her 30 years as a historian. This Pulitizer Prize author writes so enjoyably that you will feel you would recognize these men, their wives, sweethearts, children and friends if you met them today.
COME JOIN US IN MARCH when we begin the book.
Meanwhile………
FEBRUARY, do you remember when we used to celebrate President Lincoln’s birthday on February 12th? Lincoln's Birthday is still a legal holiday in the states of Illinois, Connecticut, California, Missouri, New Yorik, New Jersey and Indiana.
Come post your anecdotes of Lincoln; personally I grew up in a house on Lincoln Street in a small town in Ohio and I have gazed in awe at the Lincoln Memorial on the Mall in Washington. How about you?
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Welcome to the "Team of Rivals" pre-discussion. This is a truly addictive book. We will find ourselves caught up in the politics and personalities of a century and a half ago, and see how relevant they are to present times. Please come in, let us know you’re joining the discussion, and stay to chat. The formal discussion begins March 1, so plenty of time to get the book and get ready to go.
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GOOD MORNING, PAT!
Here we are online and ready to meet anyone who drops by; I hope we have some company.
This month is the 200th birthday of Abraham Lincoln and the country is celebrating this in myriad ways. Our newspaper lists books, movies, and TV programs all celebrating this event, plus local and national exhibits.
In Ohio, our statehouse and historical society are both celebrating with events throughout the month and there is a new Lincoln exhibit at the Smithsonian which is the first major exhibit in about 50 years and features some items never seen before.
So, Pat, what state are you from and what, if anything, is your state doing?
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I'm from Washington, DC, and now live in a Maryland suburb of DC. You're right, Ella, there's plenty going on.
The Smithsonian, as you have mentioned, has a fine new exhibit:
http://americanhistory.si.edu/exhibitions/exhibition.cfm?key=38&exkey=1210 (http://americanhistory.si.edu/exhibitions/exhibition.cfm?key=38&exkey=1210)
This site has a virtual tour. They also have an exhibit of documents from the Lincoln Library in Springfield, IL.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/exhibitions/exhibition.cfm?key=38&exkey=1251 (http://americanhistory.si.edu/exhibitions/exhibition.cfm?key=38&exkey=1251)
(Note--The Museum of American History is part of the Smithsonian.)
Ford's Theater, where Lincoln was shot, is celebrating too:
http://americanhistory.si.edu/exhibitions/exhibition.cfm?key=38&exkey=1210
Ford's theater has been renovated so it is a theater again, and productions with vaguely appropriate themes are staged there.
I'm not sure what Maryland is doing. They aren't as big on Lincoln as DC. I mean to go down to see the Smithsonian exhibit, but given the current track record of my fellow Seniorlearners of slipping on the ice, I'm going to wait for better weather.
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Well, here I am, book in hand and ready to go. For years lived in Washington, surrounded by places assiciated with Lincoln and the Civil War without paying too much attention. As a child, we would walk to Fort Stephens, and my father would say "This is where Lincoln got his hat shot off". I would sit on the barrel of the Civil War gun looking down on the (imaginary) rebel army attacking the fort.
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This battle was the only one in which a (sitting) President of the United States was under enemy fire. Jubal Early, one of Lee's Generals, and a small force attacked Washington DC but were beaten back by the forces at Fort Stephens. At one point Lincoln came out to see the battle, and was under fire.
There are two stories connected with this: one that he got his hat shot off, the other that he stuck his head up, and someone shouted "Get down you fool". The truth of these isn't known. "Revellie in Washington" Margeret Leech
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What a pleasant surprise to find TEAM OF RIVALS up for pre-discussion chat. This is truly a great choice for serious discussion in March. I was not aware of the 200th anniversary celebrations. That certainly gives it a new dimension.
Congratulations, Ella, for proposing it, and for getting Pat to help you with the DLing. A toast to both of you. This will be just a great experience for everyone joining in.
Already the links provided by Pat have got me going. A few days ago it was posted in Non-Fiction, I believe it was Marge, that every week a new book on Lincoln is published. I had to think of that when I read what Lincoln had to say about his early life - on page 2 of the Smithsonian link:
"It is great folly to attempt to make anything out of my early life. It can all be condensed to a single sentence, and that sentence you will find in Gray’s Elegy: 'The short and simple annals of the poor.'"
—Abraham Lincoln, 1860
I wonder when in his life Abe Lincoln stumbled across himself in Gray's Elegy and set out to improve his chances of being remembered. Beyond his wildest dreams! What a monument to ambition.
How strange to hear that slipping on the ice is one more hazard of life in Washington. As if there weren't enough without that.
Can anyone locate the three rivals on the cover of our book? I believe that's Seward sitting in the foreground, looking at Lincoln. But how about Chase and Bates?
Hi, Joan. Good to see you.
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Oh, we've had a couple of visitors, Pat.
HELLO TO JOAN AND JONATHAN, THANKS FOR POSTING
Fort Stephens. I've never heard that story, Joan, and perhaps as we read the book that tale will be told in more detail????? Actually, although over the years I have visited many of the Civil War sites in America, I think a person could visit them every year and not remember many of the stories of the battles over that soil; it's such a sad and terrible war and I know it broke Lincoln's heart. How difficult it must have been - Americans killing Americans, brother against brother, so to speak.
There is so much to be considered! I am so much looking forward to this discussion!
Hey, Jonathan, I could identify those three in the picture, I bet most of us could, but who are the others? And, indeed, Lincoln, who read everything he could get his hands on in his youth and his entire life would have read Gray's Elegy. So melancholy, as he often was.
I hope we get more visitors and they knock LOUDLY!
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"The conduct of the republican party in this nomination is a remarkable indication of a small intellect, growing smaller, they take up a fourth rate lecturer, who cannot speak good grammar.......the leanest, lankest, most ungainly mass of legs, arms and hatchet-face ever strung upon a single frame. He has most unwarrantably abused the privilege which all politicians have of being ugly." - New York Herald, 1860, editorializing upon Lincoln's nomination.
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There were a number of forts ringing Washington, DC during the Civil War. Traces of some of them remain, but Fort Stevens is the only one I know of that still looks like a fort. It's a rectangular earthwork, surrounded by a ditch, with gaps for cannon to fire through.
The National Park Service website is under reconstruction, and remarkably irritating to use, but I thought these paragraphs on the cultural impact on the city were interesting.
In 1860, the Union capital, Washington, D.C., was a sleepy city of approximately 62,000 residents. The city sat almost completely unprotected, with Fort Washington, the lone fortification, being 12 miles south. Virginia, a Confederate state, lay on one side of the city, and Maryland, a slave-owning state, was on the other, leaving Washington dangerously vulnerable. Realizing the potential danger the city faced, the Union army constructed additional fortifications for the city. By 1865, the Defenses of Washington included 68 forts, supported by 93 detached batteries for field guns, 20 miles of rifle pits, and covered ways, wooden blockhouses at three key points, 32 miles of military roads, several stockaded bridgeheads, and four picket stations. Along the circumference of the 37-mile circle of fortifications were emplacements for a total of 1501 field and siege guns of which 807 guns and 98 mortars were in place. The defenseless city of 1860 had become one of the most heavily fortified cities of the world.
Not only did the defenses serve their purpose well by deterring Confederate attack on the capital, but they impacted the city culturally, socially, and politically. For example, many enslaved people came to the fort system for protection and settled nearby, changing the cultural landscape of the city. The population doubled in less than five years and changed in character from southern origin to northern newcomers.
The physical landscape was drastically affected, as well. Miles and miles of trees and many buildings were razed to construct the defense system--creating a fort-capped circle around the city.
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How fascinating, Pat, that our capitol city was so fortified, I had no idea, it certainly provided lots of jobs for the construction workers.
And the one remaining, Fort Stevens, is an earthwork. Memories are such vague things and cannot be depended upon, but at one time in my life we visited an earthwork fort and prison. I think it was in Virginia, however. And after the Civil War, several Confederate generals were imprisoned there. As I remember it was the only fort in America that had a moat around; the prison was underground.
Perhaps I will remember more fully someday, perhaps not!
I just noticed that I capitalized the word "Confederate." Is it always capitalized?
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For any others who live in the Washington DC area, the book about Washington in the Civil war is the one I quoted above:
"Revellie in Washington" by Margeret Leech. More detail than you might want to know, but with a little creative skipping, fascinating, especially to a native. It won a Pulitzer prize (although this was controversial, as she was related by marraige to Pullitzer).
I particularly liked the section on women spies in Washington. DC is in the South, and many of the people left in the government establishment were Southern sympathizers. As is true today, Washington runs on an elaborate social system (peons like Pat and me aren't included of course) and many of the "Hostesses with the Mostest" acted as Confederate spies, picking up what tidbits they could from well oiled officials and passing them on.
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I heard by accident last night that "Team of Rivals" is being made into a movie. I think they said that Liam Nielson (sp?) is going to play Lincoln.
They also said that "Manhunt" by James L. Swanson is being made into a movie. This is the story of the hunt for Lincolns killer. I have it: found the first half fascinating and then bogged down.
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Really, Joan! The book is excellent and a movie based on the book would be very good and, after spending 10 years writing and researching, Goodwin deserves to make a bit of money.
LIAM NEESON as Lincoln, well, why not! I like him. I'll have to do a bit of research to see what other actors have played Lincoln. Was Jason Robards one of them? There have been others.
Seward was short and slender, well educated and very wealthy. Hmmm And he was an excellent speaker.
Chase was almost as tall as Lincoln, 6', and very good looking. He, too, was wealthy, very religious.
Bates was 5'7", also wealthy, considered a "man of the west" as he was from Missouri.
I've always wondered why Lincoln, being so very tall, wore that stovepipe hat which increased his height to - what? Another 4"?
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That's interesting detail coming out of "Reveille in Washington." Wasn't it a bestseller away back when? I'm sure I must have a copy somewhere in the house. Something to read until we get going on THE RIVALS. I've read enough of THE RIVALS to convince me there's a good movie in it. With all its dramatic incidents. Not to mention its dramatic characters, led by the man who wanted to stand tall and risked being shot at, at Fort Stephen. I must try to get to Washington to observe the Lincoln celebrations.
"Ford's Theater, where Lincoln was shot, is celebrating too:"
Surely not a reenactment of April 14. Tickets would probably be hard to get.
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JONATHAN, you always make me smile, even break into a chuckle! The hazards of Washington - a reenactment of April 14th. Do you really think anyone would attend?
Joan, that last book sounds good, but at the moment I cannot begin another book on this period of history as the TEAM OF RIVALS is enough to keep one occupied.
I was thinking today of the similarities (as have others) between Obama and Lincoln. You all can think of several too, I'm sure.
Both were relatively unknown before their nomination
Both spent one term in the Senate
Both were from Illinois
Both were lawyer and effective speakers
Both had the ability to inject humor when needed
Both rode on trains, although had to as it was the only mode of transportation
One wonders if it was all just coincidental? Of course, there are many dissimalarities also.
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It came to me, the name of the fort mentioned above.
FORT MONROE in Virginia
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Jonathan, the Fords Theater program sounded pretty tame to me. I don't think I'll go.
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Haven't started reading it but my book came today
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Great, Barb, you'll add a lot to the discussion. You're in plenty of time, once you start the book, it just sweeps you along.
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Hello Barbara Welcome.
Here are 4 actors in the last century that have played Lincoln in movies. Which one would get your vote?
Walter Huston, Henry Fonda, Raymond Massy, Hal Holbrook
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hENRY fONDA
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i'll be here, thanks for the links, Pat and Ella...............just found you, so haven't read them all yet, but i know i'll enjoy them................When i worked for the Dept of Army at Ft Dix, we were a part of the Training Command whose hdqtrs was at Ft Monroe. They have a very old, historic hotel there that they were renovating the last time i was there in the mid-80's................One of the nights i was there it was very foggy and all night long we heard the fog horns of the ships in Hampton Roads (that's the waterway there, not the highway)..........Not only were some Confederate generals held there, but Jefferson DAvis spent at least a year, i think that was the time, at Ft Monroe ...................jean
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Great, Mabel, more and more good people showing up!
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HELLO JEAN! AM SO HAPPY YOU FOUND US!
Thanks for the interesting post about Fort Monroe. Years ago we attended an Elderhostel on the Army Base at Fort Monroe and we stayed in that historic hotel, which was right on the water facing the Naval Station and we could sit and watch those huge navy ships, some of which went in and out. Fascinating to my husband who was in the Navy in WWII. We were right in the middle of an Army base, and I was called "Maam" the entire week and those young men in uniform were so delightful to be around.
It constantly amazes me that I can find anything - anything - on the Internet. If we had this discussion ten years ago we could not have seen this:
http://www.monroe.army.mil/Monroe/sites/directorates/pai/StrategicPlan2008thru2011.pdf
It appears that the Fort is in danger of being torn down and the government is betwist and between decisions about its future. Click here:
http://fortmonroenationalpark.org/
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It would seem a pity to see Fort Monroe turned into a housing development, but then it looks like choice real estate, irresistable to developers. We should have a better historical appreciation for the fort by the time we get through the book. I've been through that area a number of times - without being aware of the fort - looking too hard at the huge naval establishment, I suppose.
Lots about Lincoln next week in the PBS American Experience series. Monday, the assassination of AL, followed be something on AL as an attorney. Then, on Wednesday, something called Looking for Lincoln: Life and Legacy. Check your listings.
Curious to read how much Lincoln and Obama have in common. How must it leave Obama feeling. Does the White House feel haunted for him. Does he feel overwhelmed by history? Does he try conjuring up Lincoln's spirit, for moral support? Or will he? For the rebirth of freedom spirit.
It seems to me Obama is also drawing on the moral force of George Washington, with the clear references in his inaugural address - the Valley Forge difficulties - 'the winter of our hardships'. A photo in my newspaper the other day showed Obama at his desk in the Oval Office. The presidential portraits on the far walls are a bit fuzzy, but it sure looks like GW over the fireplace, and AL to the left on the adjoining wall.
When Lincoln sat down at the desk, he found Andrew Jackson over the fireplace. Does every president choose the company he keeps in the Oval Office?
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Well, for starters, you recall that Obama took the oath of office on the same bible that Lincoln used. I'm guessing he definitely sees Lincoln looking down on him and is drawing on his example for moral support.
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Well, my goodness, Ella, you took me back 20 yrs when i went to the links about Ft Monroe. First of all, STTTRRATIGGGICCC PPPPLLLAAANNN! Ft Dix was on the Base Closing lists from the middle of the 70's until they did transition to a different kind of base in the 90's and strategic plans where being written constantly for those 20yrs. And then to have a look at Ft Monroe and to read again the history reminded me of the good times i had there. I was rather shocked to see that they might want to significantly change the island. It is so historically important, i'm glad to see it's on the National Historic Site list, that will protect some of it and i'm happy to see that there is a group hoping to make it a National Park, rather than a suburban development.
I remember a management exercise we did at DOA in decision making where an installation was being closed and each team had to figure out a plan of what to do w/ it???? Sounds familiar....................jean
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My sleep schedule is messed up, and I was up at 4 or 5 in the morning looking for something to put me to sleep. I stumbled on C-SPAN's discussion of books on Lincoln. Two Lincoln scholars each suggested their 15 or 20 favorite books about Lincoln - with very little overlap(there have been 90 published in the last two years alone).
I admit, I felt a little overwhelmed. But it was a good reminder that each historian has their own "take" or opinion on hitorical persons and "facts". So we must be a little careful to recognize opinions and points of view, and not take them as gospel. One of the participants said that three things are inevitable: death, taxes, and changes in what she called "historograpy", which I took to mean interpretations of history.
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JONATHAN, I would like to know just what the Oval Office looks like now; what desk is he using, what is on it? Does he have a computer on it or is his Blackberry enough? Pictures on his credenza? Is he an organized person, neat? Does anyone know?
Lincolnmania is everywere, on TV, the papers, the Internet, we will be reminded of him this month, the 200th anniversary of his birth. Wouldn't he be amazed? Other than George Washington, no other president has been so remembered, so honored, to my knowledge. Both are featured prominently on the Mall in Washington. I did see the staute of FDR on my last trip to Washington, where his cape covered the wheelchair (as I remember) It was a big decision at the time. Perhaps all the presidents have statutes in the city? I know their portraits hang in the White House, of course.
JEAN, it was probably 20 years ago when I visited Fort Monroe with my late husband and I was happy to hear you say that the old, historic hotel on the water is being restored. Although on the Army base, it does not belong to the government, a strange arrangement. It has a long history and in the huge lobby there are pictures of prominent people sitting at tables on the lawn, the ladies in big hats, playing cards, and they played croquet and drank and smoked cigarettes and gossipped. They came there to escape the heat and the smell of the big industrial cities. The hotel had no air conditioning (even when we were there) but big windows and the ocean breezes kept it cool.
I wish I knew the name of the hotel as it probably has a web site!
You are so right, JOAN, we must "recognize opinions and points of view." Weren't you surprised though that so many (90!) new books about Lincoln have been published in just two years? Can't be possible that this much material has been overlooked through the years!
One new book I read last year was THE LAST LINCOLN, by Charles Lachman - it was revelatory in regards to Mary Todd Lincoln and her one surviving son, Robert. Sad!
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This book we will be discussing focuses on three men, Seward, Bates and Chase, as they relate to Lincoln's nomination and presidency. All three men ran for the presidency, all three were his rivals for the election and all three were appointed by Lincoln to his cabinet.
Much of this material is new and is referenced by letters and newspapers of the time. Doris Kearns Goodwin is a reputable historian (see her other three books; one of which won the Pulitizer Prize) and is often on TV as a panelist or speaker on BookTV and other programs of historical note.
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Ella - the name of the hotel was Hotel Chamberlin and it apparently was another victim of 9/11. Sounds strange, yes, i tho't 9/11?? when i read the article, but the security measures made visitors unwelcome - see article ......
http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2003/082003/08232003/1076200
what a shame, it was a glorious old building......................jean
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Ella, I heard a few days ago that President Obama is continuing to use the desk that George Bush used in the Oval Office. I don't know about other changes. I learned in a management course years ago that when going into a new office it is a good idea to at least move the furniture around. That would be likely be hard to do in the White House.
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Thanks, JEAN, for the site and info about the Hotel Chamberlain. What a shame, but unless major changes were made I can understand its demise. When we stayed there during an Elderhostel trip, there was no access to the hotel other than through the Army base and, of course, with tightened security in force now there would be no guests.
LARRY! How very nice to see you here. I hope you join us in the discussion, even if you don't read the book you have a perspective on history as we all do and can voice your opinion. As I understand the Oval Office furniture, a new president can bring in anything he wants or refurnish the place. A new oval rug? New drapes, new couches. Somewhere in the White House or adjoining buildings there is a huge storage facility of furniture, and desks used by other presidents are within and can be brought out and used.
Is that true? I don't know, it was just something I thought I knew, hmmmm
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Obama's speech last night? Was it persuasive? Did it move you to believe that the bill pending before the Senate was necessary?
Lincoln, by all accounts in this book, was a master, a spellbinder, when it came to making speeches. The speech he gave in Springfield (anti-slavery speech) at the annual State Fair in 1854 was one of his great ones, here are a few observations:
"it was evident that he had mastered his subject, that he knew what he was going to say, and that he knew he was right....one of the world's masterpieces of argumentative power and moral grandeur." - Horace White, reporter (p.165)
"Many of his arguments were familiar to those who had followed the Senate debate and had read Chase's masterly 'Appeal" but the structure of the speech was so clear and logical, the arrangement of facts so methodical, that the overall effect was strikingly original and most effective." (p.165)
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We are - I am - overwhelmed by the mass of web sites and media attention to Lincoln during this 200th celebration of his birth. Too much! I am at an age where I have learned about all I need to know of this great man; however, I realize that there are young people who have yet to meet up with him and will listen and read.
This book follows three extraordinary men and their connection and influence on Lincoln and the strife of the nation. It begins with Lincoln's marriage to Mary and his political ambitions. I knew nothing of these men before and they are fascinating to me.
Every time I open the book this quote, among others, interests me and I must learn under what circumstances it was made - it's SOMETHING ELSE:
"The greatness of Napoleon, Caesar or Washington is only moonlight by the sun of Lincoln. His example is universal and will last thousands of years.....He was bigger than his country - bigger than all the Presidents together .... and as a great character he will live as long as the world lives." - Leo Tolstoy, The World, New York, 1909
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Hahahahaaa All I had to do was turn to page 747 in our book to learn where Goodwin found the quote from Tolstoy.
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Hello PatH and Ella and all of you who are gathering for the discussion of this book. You ought to jump on a plane and come to Washington to celebrate the man's birthday. (But the way, did you know that Charles Darwin and Abe Lincoln were born on Feb. 12, 1809?) I read this in today's Washington Post...
Washington is marking A Lincoln's birthday in many ways -
* New Lincoln stamps were just introduced by the US Postal Service - four stamps depicting his life...
* Library of Congress - opens a new exhibit on Thursday - "with Malice Towards None"- rarely seen Lincoln treasures - his grammar book, his family Bible, originals of both of his inaugural addresses.
* At the National Archives - a live online teach in will take place - aimred at middle and high school students -
The say that teachers can go to www.history.com/lincoln to register in advance and then log in at 1:30 EST Thursday.
Three Lincoln experts, including author Doris Kearns Goodwin will discuss Lincoln and take questions from the audience.
I plan to check this out...
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Thanks, JOAN!
Doris Kearns Goodwin, a Lincoln expert, will be in Washington to answer questions about Lincoln.
Everywhere, Lincoln.
I open the newspaper, three pages of illlustrations of Lincoln, this week's TIME magazine has a long article about him with a never-before published picture of the White House. I'll see if I can find it online.
Upon news of Lincoln's nomination for the presidency, Ralph Waldo Emerson recalled that his first reception of the news was the:
"comparatively unknown name of Lincoln"
had been selected and it was received sadly.
History is just absolutely fascinating.
Lincoln visited our Ohio statehouse 3 times, the last being when his coffin was viewed. All sorts of celebrations are planned.
And why and how did this unknown become the president of the United States of America? Did it have anything to do with his rivals for the nomination?
Let's discuss that possibility as we read the book!
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WOW! TAKE A LOOK AT THIS: Won't teachers enjoy teaching history from this site! And students will what? Groan?
http://www.whitehousehistory.org/
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Ella - unfortunately it was only in the last 2 yrs of my teaching that i got to use a computer w/ web access in my classroom, i'd love to be teaching now - not only do i know the web better, but there is so much more on there.......actually the students liked seeing websites - i used it most in my Western Civ and US History classes - this is THEIR media and they are impressed w/ the prof who knows how to use it 8). Plus it takes them right to the spot that's being discussed and students today are very "visual" in their psyche. In fact, i found that some would go and find more of what we had discussed and seen, or add new sites. They knew that makes them look interested and the prof loves that! Altho, many are truely interested.....................jean
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/teamofrivals/teamcvr.jpg) | Team of Rivals
by
Doris Kearns Goodwin
"More books about Abraham Lincoln line the shelves of libraries than about any other American. Can there be anything new to say about our 16th president? Surprisingly, the answer is yes. - ..... Doris Kearns Goodwin has written an elegant, incisive study of Lincoln......." - New York Times
The Team:
William H. Seward
Salmon P. Chase
Edward Bates
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Links:
NPR Review (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4989622)
Wilmot Proviso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmot_Proviso)
Dred Scott Decision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford)
Kansas-Nebraska Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas-Nebraska_Act)
Fugitive Slave Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Law_of_1850) | ___________ | Discussion Schedule:
March 1 - Chapters l-3
March 8 - Chapters 4-7
March 15 -Chapters 8-11
March 22 - Chapters 12-15
March 29 - Chapters 16-19
April 5 - Chapters 20-23
April 12 - Chapters 24 -26 |
Discussion Leaders: (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com)Ella & (rjhighet@earthlink.net)PatH
students today are very "visual" in their psyche. And now.....
Iphones and Blackberrys. I haven't caught up to those hand-held devices yet have you, JEAN? I feel fortunate that I have mastered (somewhat) the stationary computer.
PAT - are you hearing anything new about Lincoln in the media?
JOANK?
JONATHAN?
ANYONE?
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TO OUR PRESIDENT ABRAHAM LINCOLN ON HIS 200TH BIRTHDAY
(http://seniornet.org/gallery/bookclubs/graphics/balloons/4balloons.jpg)
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When Lincoln was born in a crude one room log cabin on this day 200 years ago," he entered a world as harsh and primitive as if he had been born a thousand years earlier. The simple act of giving birth put his mother in mortal danger, and her only protection was the old 'granny woman' summoned from miles away. Her baby was washed in water carried uphill from a dripping spsring, then wrapped in animal skin against the winter cold and put in a bed of corn husks standing on a damp earth floor beside a smoky fire." - TIME
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'anything new about Lincoln...?'
There is for me, Ella. With this extraordinary interest in celebrating the 200th anniversary of Lincoln's birth. What a deluge of information about the sixteenth president. And I'm reacting with Tolstoyan suprise. Does Lincoln really leave such greats as Napolean, Caesar, and even George Washington in the shade?
I found last night's Looking For Lincoln, on pbs, very entertaining, listenting to the historians, Doris Kearns Goodwin among them, discussing Lincoln among themselves. Hearing what past presidents think about their predecessor in the White House. Someone said every president has to come to terms with Lincoln. Nixon, for example, found that Lincoln was the most vilified president. G. W. Bush thinks of Lincoln as the ultimate wartime president, implying that Lincoln's life as president was made more difficult thereby than his own. Bush did feel Lincoln's abiding presence in the White House. Bill Clinton had generous things to say about Lincoln.
There are still individuals in the South who think of Lincoln as a war criminal. And some Blacks who see Lincoln as a white supremicist. Goodwin feels he was ambitious. But then so were the other guys. And there are some who say that her book TEAM OF RIVALS has already become part of the Lincoln canon.
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the History Channel is "doing" Lincoln all day...................jean
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While driving from Chicago headed south, we traveled along the Blue Ridge Parkway toward I65 and at a stop in Kentucky, I saw a sign with directions to Lincoln's birthplace. I talked my husband into driving off the interstate toward the homestead. The road was into farm country and finally down a lane on Nolin Creek.
It was June, and the cabin was canopied by trees, bushes and grass in every color of green. The shade made it seem cooler and the sound from the creek gave this place a quiet and serenity that Thomas Lincoln may have felt when first seeing, and later purchasing this property. Lincoln was born in Hardin Co. Kentucky (later LaRue county) in this simple log cabin, but the setting was glorious. All three of the Lincoln children were born there. His baby brother is buried there.
Hodgenville, Kentucky celebrates Abraham Lincoln as a native son. There are two bronze Lincoln statues on the town square which intersects with Lincoln boulevard. They deposit their money in the Lincoln National Bank, dine at Abe's Country cooking, go to Abraham Lincoln school, enjoy live music every Saturday night at the Lincoln jamboree. They celebrate 'Lincoln Days' each October. They have a 'look-a-like' contest for two of Kentuckys most famous natives, Mary and Abraham Lincoln.
Thomas Lincoln lost the farm in Kentucky due to title problems with his deed. He moved the family across the state line to Indiana. He lost the farm in Indiana with the same title problem. His wife Nancy Hanks Lincoln also died there. By this time Abraham Lincoln was twenty-one years old. His father Thomas then moved the family onto public land in Illinois and Abraham moved with them, but soon struck out on his own, moving goods down the Samgamon, Illinois, and Mississippi on a flat boat to New Orleans.
I often hear and read about Abraham Lincoln being a native son of Illinois. He was an adult male past twenty-one years of age before he ever set foot in Illinois. He came there not by choice necessarily but because of his fathers poor business practices and being forced to move four times in a little over twenty years. Lincoln's personality was already set and his ambition carried him far in Illinois, as it probably would have in any other place.
Emily
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I always thought Lincoln a pragmatic man and after the PBS show last evening I am convinced - further - The stories of Mary Todd Lincoln were a puzzlement - Living in Lexington Ky. there was not much discussion but when brought up in conversation Mary's name was always couched with "the rest of the nation said" - in the 1950s and 60s there was still a "polite" silence rather than vocalizing disagreement and so the tone suggest the nation accepted gossip to be dismissed and then the rest of the remark spoke of the high esteem held for the Todd family and how she isolated herself in her house after the death of her husband.
And so with that I am not sure we can get an intimate knowledge of Lincoln either - the information available is third party therefore, we do not know his true heart versus, his bringing order to the nation and if order required freedom and liberty it was supported. I see him as a pragmatic leader, a gifted orator, who used words to go about the business of creating an orderly society within a unified nation that subscribed to one constitution.
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Have you read any of Doris Kearns Goodwin's other works? She reminds me of David McCullough - a true historian, a careful researcher - with an eye for often overlooked detail. If anyone can get up close and personal with Abe Lincoln, she can.
If you lived in Washington DC, you would see the big hullabaloo associated with the 200th birthday celebration. We are heading out to the reopening of Ford's Theater...it's been closed for two years undergoing renovation. The Library of Congress, the National Archives, all putting on special exhibits...
No parades, no holiday, but you can bet schoolchildren are hearing all about Abe!
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DKG's "No Ordinary Time" about Eleanor and F Roosevelt during the war years reads like a novel rather than a non-fiction facts and figures book - altho she puts plenty of those in there also.................yes, it is similar to McCullough's writing.................jean
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Lincoln's birthday has just become even more important. As of 11pm last night, it's also the birthday of my first grandchild.
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Oh, PatH, what a thrill for you and your family. Will you have pictures soon. Do bring one in to show us. Congratulations!!!
Sorry I didn't get in here to wish old Abe a happy birthday but better late than never! Did anyone listen to the President's speech about Lincoln??? That was televised yesterday.
I watched the PBS program and found it interesting. Two things that stood out were the many remarks about Lincoln being just a human being like all of us with all our own warts. Also, I did not know that he wanted to send the freed slaves back to Africa.
About Mary Lincoln, I have read several books about her but can't remember the titles.
She and Lincoln both suffered migraine headaches and other ailments. She was a very unhappy woman but she did lose thee sons and had reason for her unhappiness as did her husband. OH, I do remember that Irving Stone wrote a book about her entitled "Love Is Eternal" which by reading the following link, I discovered where the titled came from. Its engraved on her wedding ring!
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jan/25/tr-book-shows-2-sides-of-mary-todd-lincoln/ (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jan/25/tr-book-shows-2-sides-of-mary-todd-lincoln/)
For those of you who might want to continue reading about the Lincolns, there is a plethora of titles out there including the one mentioned in the link. It is a brand new book which is supposed to be an accurate story of Mary Todd Lincoln.
In looking for books about Mrs Lincoln, I found that she had also written her own biography. That might be worth perusing.
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Congratulations all around, Pat. What a distinction for your grandchild and what a delightful happening for you.
I like the comparison being made with the David McCullough style of writing history. We all know how readable he is, and now I have evidence that Goodwin's history also has that quality. My reserved library copy of TOR was finally available. It was acquired by the system in 2006, and has obviously been in circulation ever since. It very obviously has been read many times from cover to cover. It may be 'history lite', but I'm genuinely impressed by all the meat left on the bones to chew on.
I long ago gave up waiting for my reserve and went out and bought my own copy, so I'm well into it. I'm enjoying Goodwin's unique approach to this epochal event in a nation's history, and to the many characters and their roles in her historical panorama. Take for example this statement:
'Few recognized the insecurity behind Mary's outlandish behavior, the terrible needs behind the ostentation and apparent abrasiveness.'
This follows some graphic description of the 'peril threatening the city' at the outbreak of hostility. Wonderful how the president could keep his head while all around him were losing theirs.
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Congratulations, Grandma Pat!
THANK YOU, EMILY, for that lovely post about Lincoln's birthplace.
"Hodgenville, Kentucky celebrates Abraham Lincoln as a native son."
A small little town in Kentucky! I didn't know the name of the town although I knew he was born in Kentucky. Actually, I've never been to any of the places in Illinois where Lincoln's name is proudly displayed. SPRINGFIELD has certainly been in the news due to Obama's great tribute on the steps of the Statehouse there. Isn't he a gifted orator! As was Lincoln!!
I hope you join us, EMILY, as we read the book.
What would be Lincoln's rection to our president?
Hello, JONATHAN!! Don't read too far in advance of the group! We will be posting our Reading Schedule soon; it is an estimate but we'll try to stick to it as closely as possible. Yes, and I agree, Goodwin is readable, factual, and you mentioned Mary's behavior. What a pair they must have been! Lincoln's depression, his melancholy periods, must have been difficult to live with and you can't blame his marriage for his moods.
Perhaps his very sad childhood?
Thanks for the post, BARBARA!
"I am not sure we can get an intimate knowledge of Lincoln either - the information available is third party therefore, we do not know his true heart" I agree, but there are scraps of Lincoln's own feelings, via letters, in this book that give us some insight. And letters of colleagues that talk of Lincoln that afford us a better glimpse of the man.
As, JOANP says, Goodwin can get up close and personal with her subjects.
HELLO ANN! That was a good program about Lincoln on PBS! There were several on different aspects of his life; it's unbelievable that historians can still write more and more books about him when one believes that everything has been said!
History is never dead.
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Lincoln and Darwin's birth on February twelfth two hundred years ago was just a prelude to the birth of Robert Vernon Kaiser, PatH's grandson and my greatnephew!! Expect great things to happen in about thirty years!
But when I asked Pat if she'd rather he looked like Lincoln or Darwin, we were both stumped. Luckily, he looks like himself.
I loved "No Ordinary Time" by Goodwin. It's not "History lite at all, just because it's readable.
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Just checking in ... looks like a great group!
I've got my book and have started reading!
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MIPPY!! HI. HI! Come join us.
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WE DO HAVE A GREAT GROUP, MIPPY! And I know you will be here opening day, right?
Hi JOANK!!
Lincoln! Lincoln! Again, more about the man on Presidents Day,
Our newspaper said out of 65 historians Lincoln was judged to be the best president! I wonder what those 65 historians based their beliefs on. What criteria was used?
The next best presidents were, predictably, George Washington, Teddy Roosevelt and FDR.
Do you think that warfare brings out the qualities of leadership that enable men to become great? All those men presided over the nation (with the exception of Teddy, perhaps) during times of great stress.
There are three families who produced subsequent presidents in the country. The Roosevelt family, the Bush family and the Adams family. Heredity? Know-how?
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On my PBS station I am watching the Assassination of Lincoln.
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Tell us about it, Pat.
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I watched the Assassination of Lincoln a week ago in my broadcast area, followed two days later by Looking for Lincoln. Made me eager to start talking about the book.
Why did 65 historians choose Lincoln as the best president? What were the criteria? I believe everything comes together for the historian in the life and times of Lincoln...character, events, fate, the destinies of nations and individuals...it's awesome. There's always a fresh aspect of Lincoln's life to research and tell about. The other day at the bookstore I saw half a dozen new things on Lincoln, including a book with the title THE GREAT COMEBACK, with Lincoln losing the senate race to Stephen Douglas, in 1858, despite 'winning' the great debate series, and then coming back to win the presidency in 1860, which in turn was so fateful for the nation. I must get that.
Last night I watched something called Stephen Fry's America, an Englishman's travels across America in his London cab. with a stop at Mt. Rushmore. Even there it struck me...Lincoln's position on the mountain face...the best set apart somewhat from the greatest.
How to explain that look of tragedy or sorrow that so often haunted Lincoln's portraits. I sure hope we can get to the bottom of that.
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Received my book today.
For those of us who live along old Highway 30 - The Lincoln Highway - now Interstate 80.
There was a PBS show on what is left of the original alignment. Many towns having a Lincoln Way or Lincoln St as the highway passed through. Between Laramie and Cheyenne, WY, there is a large statue of Lincoln along I-80.
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It's 22 degrees out and so windy. I opened my front door to get the paper and was just about blasted off the earth!
Great post, JONATHAN! Mt. Rushmore. The best vs. the greatest! Is there a difference? Wasn't there a book about the carving of those faces? And if someone were to do that today whom would they choose? Interesting speculation.
KIDSAL, I am so happy you will be joining our group. I didn't know that Interstate 80 is the Lincoln Highway, I wish I had seen the PBS show. I've always wanted to travel the whole Interstate #40, the oldest I believe, and have traversed some of it. Lincolnmania!
And another: The Lincoln Town Car (http://www.lincoln.com/towncar/photogallery_exterior.asp)
Kidsal, have you read other books by Goodwin? To be truthful, I have not, this will be my first adventure into this historian's views and as someone said earlier we will be on the lookout for biases; however, her 100 pages of source notes are daunting to look at. Ten years it took the author to research and write the book! Why? When there are so many others?
By researching and writing about three other men, who were closely allied to Lincoln for several years, she has a different story to tell and one that illuminates Lincoln in various ways.
One of the men, Salmon P. Chase, is from my home state of Ohio so I will be looking at him in a critical light; hoping the state can be proud.
Our schedule is posted in the heading now and, as you can see, we will take our time, as much time as we desire, to discuss the book.
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Thank you Ella for the welcome. I do not plan to read the book, as I have too many commitments at present. I have read other works on Lincoln and found the pages about his cabinet boring, but maybe Goodwin can bring them to life.
I am interested in Lincoln's family and have picked up the book, The Last Lincoln by Charles Lachman. Mary Todd and Abraham Lincoln had four children, but only one lived to adulthood and produced children. The last Lincoln died in 1985. He was Abe's great grandson, Robert Todd Lincoln Beckwith, and he died without producing any children.
So no more Lincolns, which makes it perhaps easier to heap praise on Lincoln without the spector of his offspring winding up in the tabloids. Robert Todd Lincoln Beckwith was roundly derided by almost everyone including the author as a ne'er do well.
Emily
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Glad to be here! Haven't read any of her books but have seen her often on talk shows discussing history.
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Good morning Ella and All,
I see the Dred Scott Decision and The Fugitive Slave Law in the heading. I am definitely interested. Abraham Lincoln is such a complex individual I doubt if we can ever learn enough about him and this period in History. President Obama has refocused our eyes on Abraham Lincoln making him a part of American History that can not be forgotten.
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Just read an article in a month-old Newsweek about Obama using the Lincoln Bible to be sworn in.............a secondary, or perhaps the primary, story of that happening is that Chief Justice Taney who swore in Lincoln on that Bible was the person who wrote the Dred Scott decision. That decision said not only were Blacks not citizens of the U.S., but that Blacks were "beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate w/ the White race, either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the White man was abound to respect."!!! The IRONY! and perhaps the real reason Obama used that Bible?
Dahlia Lithwick, the author of the article says "It is in some ways the symbolic closing of a constitutional circle. What a wonderful closing..................jean
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Thanks for the post, EMILY! Stop in once inawhile next month and say hello to us. I read THE LAST LINCOLN and and I am somewhat sorry that I did. It puts everything about Lincoln in such a different light, but I won't spoil it for you.
Goodwin does an excellent job with Lincoln's cabinet, particularly the three rivals he had before taking office. She makes them come to life for us and I daresay I find them so interesting because of the light they shed on our "best" president. What difficult decisions Lincoln had to make and what courage they must have taken.
I'd love to ask high school students about the Civil War and Lincoln's part in it, wouldn't you?
I don't have grandchildren and am so sorry I do not. I had a short discussion in the waiting room of a dentist's office about the Great Depression and was asked my opinion from a high school student. He was studying it at the time and, although a child at the time I had a few impressions; one of my most vivid was the day I found out that the country has elections and changes presidents. Hahahaa
Hi KIDSAL. Our author is knowledgeable on TV isn't she? It helps when an author can talk as well as write; makes one wonder about the interviews with authors that BookTV must have or how do they make such decisions?
HATS! Those laws of the land in the heading are probably the most important that led to the Civil War, but there are others that we will be discussing. I am so happy you will be joining us!
Thanks for the post, JEAN! Could be the reason why Obama used that bible and could be many other reasons, could we ask him? The Dred Scott decision was described by Justice Fellix Frankurter as "one of the Court's great self-inflicted wounds." Chief Justice Taney was an ardent supporter of the South and slavery and Goodwin writes quite a lot about him, as she does about other characters of that period that we may not have thought to read about.
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I'm on the hold list at the library, but i think there is one person ahead of me for the book, so i went yesterday and got the audio version. My problem w/ that is that i won't be sure of the chapters that you are reading, so i'll try to be a little "behind" you in your discussion so i'm sure not to be "ahead." ........ does anyone understand that besides me?? ??? LOL...............can't wait to get started.............jean
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Only a week to go! We have sure got a good bunch of people ready to discuss this interesting book. I can hardly wait.
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Yes, PAT, it's going to be fun, isn't it, to pull the curtain - oops! I mean open the book, turn the pages. I watched the Oscars last night, which has no relevance to this discussion, except it has a little to do with entertainment, of which Lincoln was fond.. This morning I thought of Ford's Theater and looked it up on Google wondering how it got its name.
It started as a church, did you know that? I didn't! And then a fellow by the name of Ford bought and turned it into the theater. After the assassination it was used for storage, I don't imagine anyone wanted to go in there again. It's rather amazing that it survived don't you think?
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It started as a church, did you know that?.... It's rather amazing that it survived don't you think?
No, I didn't know that, and it is surprising no one tore it down. When I was growing up, it was a rather uninteresting museum. The inside had been gutted, so all you saw was glass cases of exhibits. They re-did it as a theater a long time ago, and have just renovated it, partly to improve the very uncomfortable seats. JoanP was going to the re-opening. What was it like, Joan?
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It would be interesting to hear more about the Ford Theater. Were the bicentennial celebrations of Lincoln's birthday the occasion for the renovations? Was any attempt made at restoration of the original theater? It must be practically a shrine for many Americans, given the stature of Abraham Lincoln. Could anything staged there now match the drama of April, 1865? What an awesome place in history he earned for himself. Mountains and highways, parks and buildings, streets and counties, all bear his name. I grew up in Lincoln County
I like the discussion schedule. It should give us lots of time to allow Goodwin to convince us that she has portrayed the real Lincoln, as she set out to do.
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WE WANT TO HEAR ALL ABOUT IT, JOANP! Was there a play that night? What was the name of it?
Was it the play OUR AMERICAN COUSIN (or something like that!) that was staged the night Lincoln was killed? I could look it up, of course.
There must be a difference of some sort between the two words - killed, assassinated - because it seems that whenever we speak of Lincoln or Kennedy's death the word "assassination" is used? Is it ever used for any other person?
Another thought this morning is that Lincoln is put upon a very high pedestal (actuallly he is on the mall, haha) but one never hears, at least I never have, many negative remarks about him. He was not a god, he was human. We have, in several recent books, torn down the god-like images of several of our past heros, such as Thomas Jefferson. But Lincoln remains.
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Here's the website of Ford's Theater.
http://www.fordstheatre.org/ (http://www.fordstheatre.org/)
It's one of those annoying sites where you have trouble finding the fact you want, but by implication the theater looks like it did then. You can take a virtual tour. They are currently doing a commissioned work, "The Heavens Are Hung in Black", dealing with a portion of Lincoln's life, but they may have had a special program on the 12th.
I read somewhere than "Our American Cousin" is totally tedious and unwatchable for modern audiences.
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Date: 1321
assassinate
1 : to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously
2 : to murder (a usually prominent person) by sudden or secret attack often for political reason
to assassinate seems to have "sudden" attack in all the definitions i've looked at, and "usually a politician or prominent person."
look at that date from Webster Dict'y, i love that kind of trivia
Encarta
1. murder: the killing of somebody, especially a political leader or other public figure, by a sudden violent attack
..................jean
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I wonder if the reluctance to use the word murder has to do with how the killer was disposed - neither Lincoln's or Kennedy's killer was tried in a court room - and where neither was hidden, so the public did not know who they were, like an assassin their story was not made public in a court of law.
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All very interesting. It seems to matter how one thinks of Lincoln's death. I would be happiest with the term that has him sharing the glory of all the thousands of valiant soldiers who died in the Civil War. Fallen heroes. All of them. Whether C-in-C, or lowly pfc. What an ill-fated president. Begun with the shot at Fort Sumter, and ended with the shot at Ford's Theater. I believe Lincoln enjoyed the action, loved reviewing his troops, felt drawn to the battlefields and exposing himself to danger. He will never be brought down from his pedestal without seeing his 'house divided' crumble into ruin. His nation's soul still needs him.
The author of a recent book has it all wrong when he insists that Stanton, the secretary of war, declared, in Lincoln's death chamber, 'now he belongs to the angels', and not, as universally accepted, 'and now he belongs to the ages.' What do you think?
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Thanks, PAT, for that site on Ford's Theatre; the current play is set in 1862 and the playwright says he chose that date because it is when Lincoln lost his son and other families were losing their sons in battle. Death is the theme? I doubt Lincoln would want his legacy portrayed in that manner.
As JONATHAN said he is a part, a large part of the nation's soul. Well said!!! Thank you for your post.
And what does it matter if Stanton said it or not, Lincoln does belong to the ages and the angels. We know.
That's a good thought, BARBARA! Thanks for that, it could be that is why the term "assassination" is used, I don't know!! Interesting!
I'm missing something, JEAN! What does that date signify? 1321?
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Comments from Obama's speech last night? Anyone?
In his statement that there is crisis in opportunity (which is an interesting thought) he mentioned that during the Civil War they laid a railroad across the United States. I don't know a thing about this and it is not mentioned in our current book.
Would anyone have an idea of the projects, the labor involved, that he was referring to. It seems to me that most of the young men would have been in the war in some capacity, but railroad building out west? From other books I have the idea that railroads were built to the south to accomodate supplies to the soldiers, perhaps that is what he was referring to, and, being a Lincoln scholar I am sure he is correct.
I was amused that a commentator corrected Obama when he said that America invented the automobile! Of course, he was referring to the industrialization that Henry Ford invented. Sometimes Americans get a bit too proud, perhaps? And I was also amused (as Lincoln would have been) when Obama said "nobody messes with Joe Biden." I think that was the kind of humor that Lincoln would have inserted.
Much patriotism, love of country, inspired ideas in the speech; no storytelling, though.
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Two interesting links with information on building the railroad and the Civil War
http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/sherman2.html
http://tiny.cc/L6aNN
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Ella - i was just impressed that the word assassination was that old...........i love that stuff........................jean
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/teamofrivals/teamcvr.jpg) | Team of Rivals
by
Doris Kearns Goodwin
"More books about Abraham Lincoln line the shelves of libraries than about any other American. Can there be anything new to say about our 16th president? Surprisingly, the answer is yes. - ..... Doris Kearns Goodwin has written an elegant, incisive study of Lincoln......." - New York Times
The Team:
William H. Seward
Salmon P. Chase
Edward Bates
|
Links:
NPR Review (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4989622)
Wilmot Proviso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmot_Proviso)
Dred Scott Decision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford)
Kansas-Nebraska Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas-Nebraska_Act)
Fugitive Slave Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Law_of_1850) | ___________ | Discussion Schedule:
March 1 - Chapters l-3
March 8 - Chapters 4-7
March 15 -Chapters 8-11
March 22 - Chapters 12-15
March 29 - Chapters 16-19
April 5 - Chapters 20-23
April 12 - Chapters 24 -26 |
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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JONATHAN, I know you are Canadian; perhaps you knew:
".... there was fear by the British that at the end of the Civil War, no matter what its outcome, the Americans would turn on Canada. Thus, in the House of Lords, the Earl of Ellenborough noted:
in whatever manner the present civil war in America terminates--whether in the success of the North, or in the South suceeding in establishing their independence--that is whatever manner the present civil war in America terminates--the immediate result will be an irruption into Canada? If the people of the North fail, they will attack Canada to obtain a compensation for their loss. If they succeed, they will attack Canada in the drunkenness of victory." Debate, House of Lords, July 18, 1862.
"the drunkenness of victory!" - shame on Canada, of course, it could be true!
From skimming those two sites, BARBARA, (and thank you) it appears that before the war railroad building was left up to private initiative or the states; however the Civil War brought in the government for the first time, but it was a postwar project:
"The Civil War and the needs of post-Appomattox transportation brought changes in the American way of railroad building. Initially focused on local, limited markets with only modest capital investment, the railroad became a national industry dependant upon Congressional action, army deployment, and continuing access to national financial markets"
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ANYONE AROUND?
For some reason, yesterday, I could not get those italics off of that post above.
Who listened to Obama's state of the union speech? What did you think? Lincoln-like?
I did email Joe Biden on this site http://www.whitehouse.gov/ and told he he did a good job on his book, PROMISES TO KEEP.
When they do those stress tests on banks I hope they post them so all of us will know where to keep/put what money we have left.
What did you want the government to do? Less? More?
We start on our book discussion Sunday, am looking forward to it!
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I always enjoy watching the state of the union addresses and Tuesday night's was just about the best. Many Canadians must have watched. And now we're wondering why we're not treated to the same by our prime minister. How inspiring. But I can hear our PM saying, what do you want from me? Don't we have an excellent, universal health care service? Aren't our schools the best? What energy problem? Haven't we made it comfortably through the longest, coldest winter in our history? And wasn't that a promise of spring that President Obama brought with him when he paid us the flying visit last week? What wonderful neighbors we have.
Yes, it's true. Canada is a nation thanks to the Civil War. There was a perceived threat to the northern colonies after the war ended. The victorious North did come out of the civil war with a huge military machine. Who could tell? Look what happened to Mexico in the forties. It seemed best for the colonies to confederate and present a united front. I believe it was Secretary Seward who saved us when he purchased Alaska in lieu of a military adventure in Canada. He would have made a fine president.
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Okay, JONATHAN, I got that message! Hahaaaaa Canada, our good neighbor to the north is doing better economically than we are, can you loan us some money? We need it! We have been very frivolous and now we have to pay back the debts we owe; reminds me of Mary Todd Lincoln and the problems she had her whole life!
You are a very hardy lot up there; my memory is faulty about particulars but didn't Benedict Arnold try to kidnap Quebec way back when! I think it's time to shake hands and be friends forever.
This is going to be on BookTV this weekend (in my area):
Robert Roper, Now the Drum of War: Walt Whitman and his Brothers in the Civil War
Robert Roper examines the experiences of Walt Whitman and his brothers during the Civil War through their correspondences with one and other and their mother, Louisa. Walt Whitman worked as a nurse during the war and his younger brother, George Washington Whitman, fought in twenty-one battles, including Antietam and Vicksburg. This event was hosted by The American Philosophical Society in Philadelphia.
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I'm almost packed to fly to California tomorrow to meet my first grandson, born on Lincoln's 200th birthday. My daughter and SIL are computer wizards, and have promised me total use of a laptop (Mac, fortunately,I'm no good at PCs) so I'll be ready to go on Sunday the first. I'll try to talk more about Abraham Lincoln than Baby Robert.
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Please join Ella and PatH in their March - Book Club Online -
Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=271.0)