Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

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Kim by Rudyard Kipling You may have read "Kim" as a young adult, but it's a whole different book for grown-ups.  Join us on January 1 to find out why "Kim" has been beloved by young and old for over 100 years.

He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.

SCHEDULE January 1-8:     Chapters 1-4 January 9-15:    Chapters  5-8 January 16-22:  Chapters 9-12 January 23-29:  Chapters 13-15 January 30-31:  Overview

DIscussion Leaders: 
JoanK & PatH

Online Texts of Kim

Project Gutenberg  ~  The Literature Network ~ Read Books Online

Questions Week 4 1."Who goes to the hills, goes to his mother". In this section, Kim and the lama are in the Himalayas. Which does Kipling describe more vividly: the crowded life of the plain, or the lonely rugged life of the hills. Which, if either, do you think will remain with you as a picture of India? 2. What are the Russian and Frenchmen up to? 3. What do you think of the Babu in action? How do the characters of each of the actors (Babu, the Russians, Kim, the lama, the hill people) contribute to the incident in the hills? 4.  All of the characters seem to fall in love with Kim, each seeing him as the person they need (chela, assistant, etc). What in Kim do you think elicits this? 5. Two women characters play important roles in this section. What role does each play? What motivates each? 6. Both Kim and the lama have mystical experiences. The lama's experience enables him to find his river. What does Kim's experience enable him to find? What is your reaction to these passages? What do you think happened? 7. When the lama explains his experience to Ali, the devout Muslim, Ali is conflicted. Why? 8. Mahbub Ali is relieved, when he sees that Kim, even after Enlightenment, can still work for the government. Is this true? There are two very different threads in Kim's life. What do you think his future will be? Will he be able to integrate them, or be forced to choose one path or the other?

[Frybabe]

#2 - The Russian and the Frenchman were essentially doing the same thing as the chain men for the Brits were doing. Mapping the region, scoping out the mood of the locals and their defences, finding the best routes to areas of interest including the ultimate goal, India. The Frenchman must have been an adventurer in the employ of the Russians. I don't think they French or Germans played a very big roll in the Great Game except near the end when the Russians started getting close to the Prussian territories. The Germans and French both had their spies in Moscow at the least.

[PatH]

On a related note, look at this quote:    “Thou canst not choose freedom and go in bondage to the delight of life.”
 Isn’t it true that for many Westerners, especially the young,  the “delight of life” is considered to be freedom?  And how often has it happened that those ‘delights’  become a bondage from which it is very hard to break free?

for a Buddhist lama, feeling anger would be an evil
thing. But I also had a hard time understanding how he could blame
himself. One would probably need to be Buddhist to really understand.

Yes, Babi, "delights" can become a bondage.

 Another meaning of "delight of life" feeds into my problem with Buddhism.  I love the richness of life, both good and bad, love and happiness, but sorrow too (I'd gladly do without sorrow, but it's part of the fabric), exciting and complex ideas, etc.

For a Buddhist, the way to freedom is to recognize all of this as bondage, and rid oneself of it, eventually becoming completely detached, and one with the infinite.  The lama blames himself for feeling anger because it's backsliding for him.

I'm definitely not ready for this kind of freedom--obviously still in bondage.

[PatH]

Frybabe, I too wondered why Kipling made one of the spies a Frenchman.  It does have the advantage that they talk to each other in French, which the Babu understands when they aren't going too fast, rather than Russian.

What a treasure the contents of the kilta would be!  The maps were probably of areas the British hadn't yet covered, and the political documents would be further ammunition against the rebellious local chiefs, some of whom were seen in the earlier war.

[JoanP]

In his "Quest for Kim:In Search of the Great Game" -  Peter Hopkirk addresses the matter of why Kipling introduced a Frenchman - as a villain in the piece, considering the fact that he  was a life long Francophile.
 I'll try to put up the passage in which he discusses the Frenchman's presence in the story - not sure this will work -

It seems in the early 1800's there had been a French threat to India - even the prospect of a joint invasion by the French and Russians...let me try to put up the passage discussing the riddle of the presence of the  Frenchman in Kim -


From a passage in Hopkirk's  passage - Who is Babu?

[mrssherlock]

So the spectre of Napoleon is still haunting the Brits 90 years later.  Thanks, that is logical and would not have needed an explanation to those British schoolboys who would have studied Napoleon quite extensively.

[PatH]

JoanP, Thanks, that clears that up.  Yes, you could say that the great game began with Napoleon's deals with Russia, which didn't produce much in the way of practical results, and the French were then out of it for a long time.

[PatH]

There are also many Sci-Fi authors who took inspiration  from the book.  They are too numerous to mention.  This fact bowled me over since early on I mentioned my feeling that the atmosphere had for me, something of another world-perhaps even Sci -Fi.  I find out that I was not alone in that feeling.

Jude, thanks for pointing out the sci-fi connection; it surprised me.  I'm not a good judge of the atmosphere, since I first read Kim as a child, when you swallow things whole, and the atmosphere was just part of what I grew up with.  In a way, I'm sorry I'm not reading it for the first time.  I'm guessing that this is the article you found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_(novel)

There are some surprises, like Heinlein, and I certainly want to look at the Poul Anderson and the Tim Powers.

[Frybabe]

Ah, yes. I forgot about Napoleon. That was early in the game. Does that mean that Kim is set early in the game? The Brits didn't start training natives as chain men until later.

[JudeS]

Joan
Thanks so much for that reference from Hopkirk.  I read about ten pages of his explanations.  Although they illuminate all the mute points I wondered about I felt that I was reading Kipling "light". 
.  Sort of like reading "classic comics" as a child.That is where I got to know The Count of Monte Cristo, The Three Musketeers, Moby Dick etc.etc. Somehow all the facts are there but the magic language is missing.
 
Some of Kipling's passages at the end of the book are really full of serious philosophy and not meant for children.  I'm not sure Kipling wrote the book only as an adventure book for young boys.  The book was serialized in two different adult magazines before being published in book form.

This book is very different from Kipling's books for children-"Just-So Stories" etc. 

[Babi]

 

Another meaning of "delight of life" feeds into my problem with Buddhism.
I love the richness of life, both good and bad, love and happiness, but
sorrow too (I'd gladly do without sorrow, but it's part of the fabric),
exciting and complex ideas, etc.

PAT, I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think any human being can
truly divorce themselves from caring unless they totally isolate
themselves from other humans. Which, to a degree, they are trying to do
in a monastic life. Unless, of course, they are sociopaths. The old Lama
cannot help caring about Kim, and he is obliged to see this as a
weakness.

Speaking of his younger days, the Red Lama says, “I did not seek truth in those days, but the talk of doctrine”.   It has occurred to me before now, that emphasis on doctrine can often obscure, or even twist, truth.

The old lama blessing his land, in detail, “as a dying man blesses his folk”.  That casts a shadow, doesn’t it?  He is a very old man, and
I think he knows he is dying. What will this do to Kim?


 

[PatH]

Speaking of his younger days, the Red Lama says, “I did not seek truth in those days, but the talk of doctrine”.    It has occurred to me before now, that emphasis on doctrine can often obscure, or even twist, truth.

I agree, it can accumulate like barnacles on a ship, and obscure the basic meaning underneath.

The old lama blessing his land, in detail, “as a dying man blesses his folk”.   That casts a shadow, doesn’t it?  He is a very old man, and I think he knows he is dying. What will this do to Kim?

The lama takes the rip in his drawing of the wheel, only a tiny bit not torn apart, as a sign that he has very little time left.  We don't see him die in the book, but surely it will be devastating for Kim.  How will it affect him, and what will he do?  I'm uncertain, what about you?

[JudeS]

The Lama may die but he is forever inside Kim in his heart and mind.  His memory will accompany Kim on his chosen path and will help him make difficult decisions.
The Lama is actually preparing Kim for the fact that he may not live much longer.  Therefore each moment that they spend together now is important. 
Kim has lost both his Mother and Father.  He knows about loss. But he also knows how to survive in the face of loss. Therefore there is a streak of sadness within him but it is covered by the need to show strength and intelligence in the face of adversity.

[PatH]

This is backtracking, but I’d like to wrap up the fable of the two elephants.  The lama told this to the Jains in the Temple of the Tirthankars during his stays with them while Kim was in school, but he also dreamed it the night that Kim found the Red Bull—it was sort of his marching orders.

The lama calls it a Jataka.  My footnote says: a Jataka is a story of one of the Buddha’s previous births.  There are hundreds of them, many in the form of fables and folk tales, said to be the source of much of Aesop’s and La Fontaine’s fables and the Arabian Nights.  They were probably passed to Europe at the time of the Crusades, via Greeks and Arabs.  They were already sacred writings by 200 B. C.

The lama’s Jataka tells of an elephant, suffering from a painful leg iron, that none of his fellows can remove.  He finds a newborn, orphaned, calf, and protects it and cares for it.  When the calf grows up, he notices the leg iron, and asks what it is.  "It is my sorrow."  The calf breaks the iron with his trunk, saying "The appointed time has come".  The calf was the Buddha, and the elephant was Ananda, Buddha’s cousin and devoted follower.

The lama applies this to himself.  Kim is the calf, who must be nurtured to maturity, after which, at the appointed time, they will find the River together, and "the Search is sure".  (Note that the lama had already, almost instantly, decided to pay for Kim’s education before he thought of all this.)

[Babi]

 I wonder if the Lama also sees Kim as the one who breaks the 'iron' that
holds him? He has always insisted that Kim was sent to him to lead him
to his River of deliverance. That would be a natural fit to the jataka.
Thanks for the explanation of a jataka, PAT.  I always feel as though
I've been given a present when learn something new.

  It appears that the Buddhist faith has 38 Beatitudes, but I haven’t been able to discover precisely what they are. I'll look some more. (Just
curious.)

[PatH]

I wonder if the Lama also sees Kim as the one who breaks the 'iron' that
holds him?

Yes, Babi, that's what I think too.

[JudeS]

PBS is presenting a series on the History of India.  I saw the first two episodes (one hour each) and they have just reached the era of the Buddha.  It is well worth watching since it makes clear many unanswered questions that are related to the history  and geography of the country.  The series is called The Story of India. The whole series can also be bought as a DVD on their website .

[JoanP]

Thanks, Jude.  Will look for it next - as I have come to the end of Kipling's story - and am left with a number of unanswered questions.

Wasn't that the perfect parallel, Pat!   The orphaned calf - nurtured by the elephant until he realizes that the elephant is fettered by the leg iron - and sets him free.
The orphan Kim, follows the lama until he realizes that he must now  be the strong one if the lama is to reach  the healing waters and be freed from his sorrow. This feels familiar -  the young caring for aging parents.

I've been thinking of the question concerning Kim's future - after the lama departs this life.  The lama seems to be preparing Kim for the near future - by telling him repeatedly that he is a Sahib.  Kim is uncomfortable hearing this.  "Thou has told me there is neither black nor white.  I am not a Sahib, I am thy chela."  But the lama insists that is who he is.
I took this as an indication that Kim will find his identity as a Sabib in the future.

When Kim requested the box with a lock - and put away Mahbub's pistol, the letters, books and diaries -

"with a groan  of relief"

 I saw him locking away his participation in the Great Game. He  looked upon that prized box as a

" burden incommunicable"

.  Certainly he does not look upon these objects with the same delight the Babu does.

What has happened while Kim was massaged into that  long drug-induced sleep?  
He

"felt ...that his soul was out of gear with its surroundings."

"I am Kim.  I am Kim.  And what is Kim?"

What has happened while Kim slept?  Has he been abandoned?

What  happened to the lama while Kim slept?   He  has gone on into the wilderness - alone?  Why not wait for Kim? 
He found the healing waters - but wait, Babu has fished him out.
As Kim sleeps yet again on the earth, the lama and Mahbub come upon him together.  In answer to Mahbub's question, the lama tells him that the pilgrimage will be over that night  that he and his chela will be cleansed from sin and then set free from the Wheel of Things.

Mahbub presses the lama for information about what will happen to Kim once this happens.  Lama tells him that Kim will then be enlightened - that he will be a teacher, a scribe.  Mahbub agrees with him.

Wasn't that an amusing moment when the lama asks Mahbug to follow the Way himself - and accompany Kim?  Maybe later, he says. He leaves.

The lama wakes Kim to tell him that the Search is finished - that it is time for the reward.  I would really like to hear how you all understood what had happened to the lama.  He had fasted and suddenly his soul loosed itself from his body and became free.  It sounded to me as if he had died.  Like an eagle from on high, he saw his whole  pass life before him. His soul had passed "beyond Space, Time and Things."

But wait - what will become of the boy if he leaves him there alone? He has not yet found the Way.
 So he fought his way back - to the River, plunged into it - and cleansed himself - and in so doing, has saved himself - and Kim too.

I can't help but think that Kim still has to save himself.  I do see a parallel here to the story of the Redemption of the cross, saving mankind....but am not sure this is what Kipling was saying here.  If not this, what was he saying?

[JudeS]

After reading four articles on Kipling and Religion (Google) I am pretty sure that the Lama is not standing in for Christ.
I will quote two quotes that I jotted down from those articles.

"Kipling never subscribed to any particular religous belief ."

"Kiplings religion was very peculiar, and I am not sure that anyone has got to the bottom of it".

In general it seems that he was influenced by Buddhism, Hinduism and the Church of England.  On the cleansing in the river
someone mentions that it would satisfy the Hindus, the Buddhists and the Baptists.

If I had to give a personal guess I would say that the Lama is covering all his bases in trying to protect Kim-both religous and not religous bases.  It is like a good Father saying "I have done all I can for you and now it is up to you to make a go of your life. Make decisions that are wise for you and do not give in to defeat. "

[Frybabe]

What a bummer! For a January, the time sure flew by fast.

[PatH]

We've still got a few gasps left.  Today's supposed to be the last day, but the discussion can be kept open longer if people are still talking.  Either way, let's consider some final points.

We've talked a little about the lama's mystical experience, but there's more to say.  What has happened here, what does it mean, and what does the lama think will happen now?

Kim has had his own experience.  He is recovering from his physical sickness, but he feels disjointed and disoriented.  He sits there, saying "what is Kim?", and suddenly everything seems to snap into place.  He lies down on the ground to get strength from the earth, and sleeps for hours.  What has happened?  Does he know the answer to his question?  Do we?

What path will the characters take now?  The lama's road is almost finished, but what about Kim?  He has two paths in front of him; which will he choose, or will it be a combination of both?  Do you think Kipling had a definite answer in mind, or was he, too, weighing the possibilities but not committing himself?

[Babi]

 I hadn't thought of it, JOANP, but the Lama did need to emphasize to Kim his sahib origins. The Lama is dying, and Kim will no longer be his chela. He needs to begin making that mental adjustment.
  The precious box of documents was a heavy burden for such young
shoulders. It was a great relief to Kim to pass it on. I think, tho',
that he also feels a sense of accomplishment. He is very good at this
'game', and it's very hard to turn your back on something you do very
well.

  I didn't think that long sleep was entirely drug-induced. Kim was
exhausted to the point of illness. The massage, the drug, were aids
to healing and much needed rest.
  The Lama needed to meditate on what to do next, and went off by
himself to do so. He found the freedom he had been seeking, but could
not leave Kim as he was. He returns for Kim's sake, and once Kim is
safe the Lama is ready to die.

   Kim has become well grounded in both the teachings he has received.
I think he would be able to continue to follow both paths.  Not, of course,
the renunciation of the world that the Lama strived for, but the simple
way of life, the customs of meditation and prayer.  I see a future Kim
as a well-balanced, extremely capable man, continuing in his interest in
people and loyalty to his commitments.  And cheerful curses, of course.

[JoanK]

"And cheerful curses, of course".

Of course!

[JoanK]

Did anyone else notice that the lama needed water to reach his goal, while with Kim, it was earth. This reminded me of having heard people say that in each person, one of the four elements of the Greeks (earth, air, fire, water) predominates. As far as I know this is a Western, not an Eastern concept. But I wonder if Kipling believed it, and was noting the differences in the lama and Kim's character?

[JoanK]

I'm taking a wild stab here, but I can't help believing that Kipling had dabbled in Eastern mysticism, and that when he had the lama say "I have never (before) acheived that", he was talking about himself, with some wistfulness. I am reminded of TS Eliot in "The Wasteland", having acheived one mystical experience and searching in vain for another.

[Frybabe]

I thought it interesting that when Kim threw the survey instruments down the cliff at Shamlegh that he hesitated. He would have liked to keep them but he thought that they would be hard to hide sufficiently. The papers he was sooooo glad to get rid of.

I don't see Kim teaching in a traditional classroom or teaching Buddhism - at least not until he is much older. The Survey, at the moment, would continue to provide a steady income and a chance to travel (with or without the intrigue). Babi put it very well:

Kim has become well grounded in both the teachings he has received.
I think he would be able to continue to follow both paths.  Not, of course,
the renunciation of the world that the Lama strived for, but the simple
way of life, the customs of meditation and prayer.  I see a future Kim
as a well-balanced, extremely capable man, continuing in his interest in
people and loyalty to his commitments.

[elizabeth84]

Thank you all.  January did go by surprisingly quickly--my least favorite month.  Here in Northern California some of our February days will be spring-like.

[PatH]

Here in Maryland, we have five inches of snow on the ground and it only got up into the twenties today.

[Frybabe]

We have the 20s but not the snow up in PA (Harrisburg area). How did we miss that? !

[JoanK]

This is the last day, but we will leave the site open for any further comments. I've enjoyed this discussion hugely: as always you all are intelligent, insightful, and fun.

See you in the other discussions.

[Babi]

Interesting thought, JoanK. You might look into Kipling's life and see
if you can find what you suspect. 
  The reference to the lama's need for water is plain, but I'm not sure
what you mean by Kim needing 'earth'. If we have time, could you explain
that?

JOAN & PAT, thank you so much. I greatly enjoyed re-reading Kim, and
the discussion added so much.  Thank you for a lovely, lively time.

[PatH]

  The reference to the lama's need for water is plain, but I'm not sure
what you mean by Kim needing 'earth'. If we have time, could you explain
that?

We have whatever time we want.

The strength of earth completes Kim's healing process.  After things snap back into place for him, he wanders out.  The Sahiba says:"Let him go.  I have done my share.  Mother Earth must do the rest."

Kim lies down on the bare earth.  "And Mother Earth was as faithful as the Sahiba.  She breathed through him to restore the poise he had lost lying so long on a cot cut off from her good currents.  His head lay powerless upon her breast, and his open hands surrendered to her strength.  The many-rooted trees above him...knew what he sought, as he himself did not know.  Hour upon hour he lay deeper than sleep."

[JoanK]

I didn't mean to say we had no time. Pat and I aren't going anywhere, if you all have more to say.

[Babi]

Oh, of course, PatH. I had forgotten that. How could I?!! I thought it a
beautiful passage.

 No, no, you didn't say we had no more time, JOAN. It was simply that I
could see we were winding up and didn't know how much longer we did have.
  You and Pat have been wonderful and unfailingly responsive. Bless you!

[PatH]

Well, looks like we're all done.  I'll get the discussion locked soon, and archived shortly after.

I've really enjoyed sharing a book I liked with you.  It's my first time as the main leader of a discussion, rather than co-leader, and I couldn't have asked for a better group, interested, lively, and creative.

See you in the other discussions.

[JoanP]

Thank you, Pat - and Joan.  Hopefully it was a good experience for you both as DLs - as much as it was for the rest of us to spend this month with you.  See you again...and again!

[JoanK]

It was great!! See you again ... and again.