Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15

Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll

Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll. We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.

Discussion Schedule:    April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2    April 21-27  Chapters 3 - 6

Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.

April 21-27 Chapters 3 - 6

Chapter 3: A Caucus-Race and a Long Tale
1. What new creatures do we meet here?
2. When Alice, the birds and other animals get to the bank soaking wet, how does the mouse attempt to "dry them?"
3 When that fails, what does the Dodo suggest they do to dry themselves?
4. What is Carroll saying by using the term "caucus" to describe the race?
5. The mouse's tale is an example of "figured verse"--a poem whose shape on the page is an object relevant to the poem.  Do you know any other examples?
6. Why do all the animals leave Alice at the end of the chapter?

Chapter 4: The Rabbit Sends in a Little Bill
1. What have you learned about some of the unfamiliar expressions used in this chapter?
2. What are Alice's thoughts when she grows big?
3. Who/what is Bill and what happens between him and Alice?
4. How does Alice shrink again?
5. What animal does Alice meet that doesn't talk to her?
6. What is the last creature that Alice meets in this chapter?

Chapter 5: Advice from a Caterpillar
1. How would you describe the caterpillar's attitude?
2. What do you think of the parody of Robert Southey's poem that begins, "You are old Father William..."?
3. Which illustrations of Carroll's version of the poem do you find especially funny or interesting?
4. How did the caterpillar tell Alice she could change her size?
5. What do you think of the exchange between Alice and the pigeon?
6. Any other thoughts on this chapter?

Chapter 6: Pig and Pepper
1. What do you think of the interchange between the two footmen? Between the frog-footman and Alice?
2. Who does Alice see in the kitchen?
3. How would you describe the Duchess?  The cook?
4. What have you learned about the origin if the Cheshire Cat?
5. Have you found the original of the "Speak roughly" song on which the parody is based?
6. What happens to the baby boy?
7. What are your thoughts about Alice's conversation with the Cheshire Cat?

You can read the novel online

Discussion Leaders:  PatH and Marcie

[marcie]

That drawing is fun. I guess Tenniel could have had the Dodo use his beak to maneuver the thimble but the little hands make him more animated.

[PatH]

I knew I had seen at least one other example of figured verse, but the only way I could find it was by riffling through my poetry book looking for patterns.

A Christmas Tree

Star,
If you are
A love compassionate,
You will walk with us this year.
We face a glacial distance, who are here
Huddled
At your feet.

William Burford (1927-)

[marcie]

Thanks, Pat. That's a good example.

I think that e.e. cummings used a variation of figured verse (or patterned poetry) in some of his poems:
See his and some others at http://www.webexhibits.org/poetry/explore_21_visual_examples.html and http://www.webexhibits.org/poetry/explore_21_visual_make.html

There are some good examples here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=figure+poem+examples&client=firefox-a&hs=U81&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=zblWU_7DMc-lyATf74KgCg&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1457&bih=977#facrc=_&imgrc=ZsvNPOtFNXR0xM%253A%3BT48aK0dmgxWQ1M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcnx.org%252Fcontent%252Fm23228%252Flatest%252FPicture%2525204.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcnx.org%252Fcontent%252Fm23228%252Flatest%252F%3B1820%3B1118

When I clicked on the first one, with the waving hair, I got some good ones to the right of it.

[bluebird24]

http://www.bachlund.org/Alice_Foreword.htm

read his letter

[bluebird24]

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/design/aggregations/alice/html/info/CarrollAlice.jpg

[bellamarie]

We'll son of a gun...I am cracking up at myself after reading all your posts.  When I was reading the part about the mouse reading the driest thing it knows, I thought to myself..."how terribly boring, and what on earth does it have to do with drying off?"

Then I read  PatH .'s post about not taking things literally, and realized....Duh...the History lesson was meant to be "dry".

Alice sure knows how to clear a room by just mentioning her cat Dinah.  All those poor animals high tailed it out of there pretty fast.   

Marcie, great find, in the satirical political reference with the caucus race.  Politicians do seem to run theirselves in circles and not accomplish much at all.  I enjoyed the humor in these chapters. 

JoanP., Yes, I remember the bath houses In "Creatures". I think Barb actually posted a pic of them.

[JoanP]

My first reaction to the "figured verse" - as in Carroll's mouse tale - (his long sad tail) - fun, but a little "precious" - for lack of a better word.  Time spent working a poem into a mouse tale - that might have been spent otherwise.  Like word games.

I do remember as you point out, Marcie -  that ee cummings was intrigued by this poetry form.   ...and suddenly remembered a long ago French lit. class  - studying Apolinnaire's work... He called them "calligrammes"   Here is the one on Rain.  (Il pleut)  


I remember another - a woman's head - wearing a hat (Un Chapeau)  Let me try to find it.


Apollinaire first published his Calligrames  at the turn of the century...around the time of WWI.  I just read that this form of expression goes way back -  to Ancient Greece.
Maybe I'm gaining more respect for the art form.

[bellamarie]

Forgive my mistakes in my last post.  I was very tired, using my ipad tablet and didn't take the time to even spell check.  Ughhh...I hate when I look back and see the misspelled words or bad grammar.

These links of poetry taking on form, are truly interesting to see. 

Dodgson interested in turning Alice into an opera, well now that would have been great to see and hear, yet it seems it was more of a task than Carroll anticipated, and not wanting to give up control or top acknowledgement, it came to a halt.  I can see how writers relinquish their rights to producers, and the producers take such liberties, they change the entire originality of the stories when making the story into a movie, so I can understand why Dodgson would want to do this himself, but find it more than anticipated.

"He got a favorable reply a week later from Mackenzie, then living in Florence, and began work on the libretto. By April of the following year he wrote to Mackenzie encouraging him to abandon the idea, as "dramatic construction being too clearly beyond powers."

Some things you have to leave to the professionals, and while Dodgson was a brilliant writer, he realized turning his story into a liberato was beyond his own talents.

I
feel
the
more
we
read,
 the
   more
       we
           search,
                 and
                     the
                   more
                we search,
                           the
                         more
                      we
                  find.
              The
             more
                  we
                   find,
                        it
                         boggles
                                  the mind.
                                            Spinning
                                          and
                                  spinning 
                            around
                        and
                  down
              that
           spiral
                 tunnel
                      Alice
                           found.
                                 Gripping,
                               and
                       grabbing
                                 onto
                            more
                                and
                                   more
                            interesting
                        and
                 exciting
              facts
                  of
                    this
                        fascinating
                                 tale
                                     to
                                       explore.

Hmmm......I suppose this is a feeble attempt at creating a form of poetry.  But is was fun!

Ciao for now~
 

[JoanP]

That happens with the ipad, Bella - I hate it too when it fills in words that you didn't intend...PatH found a way to turn off that feature - but I decided to leave it on because I like it to correct my spelling...

So everyone left Alice again - simply because she mentioned Dinah - her cat, who eats mice - and also birds? (Dodo, Duck, Lory, Eaglet)  Alice has to learn to  consider the effect of her words on her companions.  Maybe Dodgson is trying to teach her something here!

[PatH]

What I turned off was the autofill, which guesses words.  It will still underline what it thinks are spelling mistakes--important for me because I make a lot of typos.

[PatH]

Thanks for the Apollinaire, JoanP.  He certainly makes you work to read the poem,

[marcie]

bluebird, what an interesting letter that Dodgson wrote to try to have an operetta created using his works. It's too bad that he didn't find someone he trusted, other than himself, with the libretto. Though it it is possible he used that as an excuse because he didn't like the collaboration with the music composer.

Joan, Apollinaire is a fun example though his handwriting makes, as Pat says, you work (hard) to read it!

Bella, very nice going down the rabbit hole!

[marcie]

As you indicate, Joan, Alice drives all of the birds and other animals away with her talk about Dinah.

Did anyone notice unfamiliar expressions in Chapter 4: The Rabbit Sends in a Little Bill? Did you learn their meaning?

[bookad]

wondering about Alice with her quick wit and intelligence; she somehow doesn't seem to get it that all about her are creatures that in normal circumstance and it seems in this circumstance as well fear her cat....but she keeps bringing up the subject, ...a bit of homesickness perhaps

love the poem links kinda inspires me....among a link of images in google there were images of many poems in unusual and different formats

interesting to see Lewis Carrol putting in all his variety of ways of seeing a subject and changing the meaning of the word to show direction change in the story i.e. everyone wet from the tear flowing; so drying off by listening to a boring history item, or running a race with no finish line.....

have some information about his birth family life will enter with my next post....main reason won't enter it here is I get carried away with a number of items then find somehow have deleted everything and have to start over....really annoying

Deb

[marcie]

Deb, I'm so sorry that you lost your post. Frustrating! If it's a long one, you might want to write it in a word processor and save it before you copy and paste it here. I look forward to the information you found.

Yes, Alice seems to be in a "dream" where we don't use our common sense!

[bellamarie]

Just finished reading the chapters for this week, and I have three words I keep thinking throughout.....  Nonsensical, endless, and creepy! I am a person who dreams almost every night.  I rarely if ever have dreams that scare me, and I have never dreamt of my three children, that I can remember.  I suppose Freud would have something to say about this.  Now, if this is Alice's dream, made up by Lewis Carroll, then I see he not only has a fascination with little girls, but he has a fascination with animals, to the point of creating them in the likeness of the three Liddell girls and others in his life.  This story has been creepy for me from the beginning, after reading about Carroll's fascination with little girls and having something against boys, but what really creeped me out was the lullaby:

"With that she began nursing her child again, singing a sort of lullaby to it as she did so, and giving it a violent shake at the end of every line:____
                                    "Speak roughly to your little boy,
                                      And beat him when he sneezes:
                                     He only does it to annoy,
                                        Because he knows it teases."
                                               CHORUS
                           (in which the cook and the baby joined):__
                                        "wow! wow! wow!"
While the Duchess sang the second verse of the song, she kept tossing the baby violently up and down, and the poor little thing howled so, that Alice could hardly hear the words:__

                                  "I speak severely to my boy,
                                     I beat him when he sneezes;
                                  For he can thoroughly enjoy
                                    The pepper when he pleases!"
                                           CHORUS
                                      "Wow! wow! wow!
This upsets Alice so much so she thinks,  "If I don't take this child away with me," thought Alice, "they're sure to kill it in a day or two.  Wouldn't it be murder to leave it behind?"

Then in the annotation it says, 5. It was surely not without malice that Carroll turned the male baby into a pig, for he had a low opinion of little boys.  In Sylvie and Bruno Concluded an unpleasant child named Uggug ("a hideous fat boy. . . with the expression of a prize-pig") finally turns into a porcupine.  Carroll now and then made an effort to be friendly with a little boy, but usually only when the lad had sisters that Carroll wanted to meet.  In one of his concealed-rhyme letters (a letter that seems to be prose but on closer inspection turns out to be verse) he closed a P.S. with these lines:

                                       My best love to yourself___to your Mother
                                       My kindest regards__to your small,
                                       Fat, impertinent, ignorant brother
                                       My hatred__I think that is all.

It is so very difficult to understand how Carroll could get away with this type of behavior and hatred in his life, yet parents would allow their little girls near him.  As a parent, teacher, daycare provider, who has gone to workshops on child abuse/predators, and knowing children that were preyed upon by men like Carroll who gained their trust by using things that were of interest to them, such as video games, music, visiting the park etc., this guy is someone I would have reported to the authorities, because it is my duty in my position, I am legally required to report suspicious behavior.  Carroll's is not only suspicious, but he is so open for his fascination with little girls, he admits he would befriend a little boy only to be with his sister.  And the nude photography of the little girls is just even more upsetting, along with his hatred for boys.  Ewwww.....no wonder this story is so weird for me.  Even without the annotations to confirm his actions, I would still find these parts in the story creepy. It makes me wonder how many men were allowed to get away with this behavior and parents did not suspect why he spent so much time with little girls.  His fascination/love for little Alice is really upsetting to me as I read more of this story, because he places Alice in such frightening situations in the story.  Makes me wonder how little Alice felt when he read it to her.  I know Alice married and had children and I believe she named one Caryl.  I don't mean to get off of the chapters, but this particular chapter really weirded me out.  So much more could be said....but I will stop now.

Ciao for now~



 

[Frybabe]

My Alice book goes back to the library today. If I don't renew it, I'll have to make do with a download without annotations.

[JoanP]

Deb - don't you wonder where those missing posts have gone?  I spend more time hunting for them than it would take to rewrite.  I too am looking forward to the information you have found.

Fry...if you don't renew it, just ask here and those of us with notations will answer your questions, I am sure.  Over the many years since the story first appeared, there have been many interpretations of Carroll's work...and input is available from Alice's family as well.  

Bella, I understand that you are approaching the story with a critical eye towards Carroll's "creepy" side and keep that in mind as I read.  I haven't yet begun Chapters 5 and Chapter 6, and so will put your post aside until I have read them so as not to be influenced by your comments before I have.  It will be interesting to read the annotations too.
I'll just say here, that if the author and the tale is so very "noir, "I don't think it would still be around, still be studied, quoted, and adapted to movies, the stage, etc.  

[JoanP]

I've been trying to sort out these characters, trying to decide which are minor, which will appear again in the story.  Also, which are friendly to Alice, not friendly, or just plain indifferent.

The White Rabbit seems to be playing a prominent role and we'll see him again.  When he addressed her as a servant girl, Alice thinks of how surprised he'll be "when he finds out who she is."  (Who is she?  Who is he?)

Are the White Rabbit, Bill the little lizard friends or not?  When Alice thought they were throwing pebbles at her, she misunderstood, later to learn they were throwing little cakes at her - cakes that would make her small enough to get out of the house again....

I've no idea about the "dear little puppy" - with no name.  Alice seems to like him - he's friendly.  Don't know why he doesn't talk to her.  Maybe Carroll is saving him for future chapters?

[JoanP]

What is the last creature that Alice meets in this chapter?

I'm finding the last creature in Chapter 4 quite exotic ... the blue Caterpillar up on the mushroom, smoking a hookah pipe, ignoring everyone around him - including tiny Alice's presence.  My first thought was - what's in the pipe?  Is he high?  Isn't he odd to be included in a Children's Hour story tale?

[bellamarie]

When I first came the to blue caterpillar smoking a hookah, sitting upon a mushroom, my first thoughts were, whoa, drug induced caterpillar...considering there is a drug named, "mushroom."  After much research at numerous sites, there is no definitive answer as to what the caterpillar was smoking in the hookah.  What I also found interesting, is how through the years this story has been questioned to be a story with hidden meanings about drugs,  from the Rabbit hole, to the white rabbit, blue smoking caterpillar etc.  Jefferson Airplane wrote a song referring to this story and drugs.  As far out as it is, and knowing Carroll had a history of a disorder, it is possible he took medicine that could alter his thinking resulting in such a nonsensical, strange story as Alice.  I know many great accomplished, geniuses who were bi polar or had other mental disorders who have been published and renowned as some of the most creative people throughout history.

JoanP.,  

"I'll just say here, that if the author and the tale is so very "noir, "I don't think it would still be around, still be studied, quoted, and adapted to movies, the stage, etc."

With all due respect JoanP., I would have to say this would make this story even more enticing, and popular.  There are many stories, movies, musicals, plays, operas, etc. that stand the test of time, in spite of them being dark, or "noir."  I watch Disney movies today with my grandchildren, that scare me, and realize how throughout the years these are considered classics.  Maybe just possibly, the children of these recent generations are more aware and intelligent to see and question stories and movies, where as a child of Carroll's era, and even of the 50's, we were just excited to have a television or book for entertainment.  

This story is strange and seems to be getting even stranger.  I see it hallucinogenics, in the way Alice keeps drinking and eating things that alter her state of appearance, size and thinking, and animals turn into humans.  It makes me wonder how I would have received this story as a child watching the movie, not knowing the book version. I know my three year old grand daughter finds it scary, yet continues to want to watch the children's movie version every time she comes over.  As a matter of fact, it is playing as we speak.  I think it may be time for me to finally sit and watch the movie for myself, since the book is so out there, I don't think seeing the movie before finishing the book could alter my opinion much.  As for viewing the book from knowing Carroll's "creepy" side, I want to say I am trying my very best to be as open as possible.  Events in the story just keep getting so strange, that it pulls me back to question the meaning and motives of Carroll.  While researching, I can see many students and scholars share my curiosity and questioned the same as I am now.  I am sorry if my posts seem to try to influence anyone, or may annoy anyone, it is not my intent.  In the discussion, I am only trying to voice what I am feeling as we read.  Many books we have discussed the author before reading the book, and it always seemed to make us wonder about things knowing certain personalities and personal experiences in the author's lifetime.  It is not a judgement, or insult to the author or the story......it is just an opinion, and a curious questioning mind.  I feel you can't discuss the story as it unfolds with such strange things, without discussing what the author means by it.  Not that we will ever know anything definitive, even having the annotated, definitive edition in our hands.

Here are a few links that can give us different ideas as to what the blue caterpillar was smoking in his hookah.  I am sure there are tons more.  I just love that we have access to researching our wonders and questions!

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/20575/what-was-the-hookah-smoking-caterpillar-smoking

http://www.ask.com/web?q=Alice+in+Wonderland+Drug+Theory&qsrc=466&gc=1&o=102140&l=dir&qo=relatedSearchNarrow

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19254839


Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Since I brought up the question about what was in that hookah pipe, I felt compelled to do a little research of my own...

Modern readers of Lewis Carroll's books (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass) will undoubtedly make some connections between radical changes in perspective following the ingestion of "special" foods and drinks and recreational drug use. These connections may be partially due to the use of imagery from the books by the "drug-culture" of the 1960s and 1970s but also due to a relative familiarity with recreational drug use in modern culture.


Would the original readers of the book (circa 1865) made similar connections?  (I think this is the question we should be asking here.)
 I am not asking if Lewis Carroll intended the books to be about drugs but whether a Victorian era reader would have considered this to be a valid interpretation.


 It seems unlikely that Victorian Era readers of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass would have thought of drugs when reading about the special foods and drinks.

This conclusion is based upon the fact that the First and Second Opium Wars started in 1839 and 1858. So you could argue that recreational drug use was not really on the radar of the average Victorian citizen until that point in time. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass were written in 1865 and 1871, so it is possible that people may have put two and two together.

"The most direct reference to recreational drug use did not come about in Victorian England until the Sherlock Holmes stories and The Portrait of Dorian Grey which were both around the 1890s. So it seems that recreational drug use was not really sufficiently popularized until that point which would mean that people wouldn't likely make the connection your question asks."

[JoanP]

Another -

First of all, while you specifically pointed out that you were not asking if Lewis Carroll intended the books to be about drugs, it is nonetheless important to note that he truly did not intend that. Lewis Carroll was the pen name of Charles Dodgson, a rector and dean in the Church of England. Dodgson enjoyed making up stories for young children, and it was one of those stories that eventually evolved into the classic tales we all know. Given his occupation, I'd say it is highly unlikely that he had any experience with and perhaps little or no knowledge of the effects of opium or other drugs. Because of this, I would assume that there was nothing associated with drugs that ultimately influenced his story.

Having said all that, I would further suggest that it was highly unlikely that any Victorian era readers would have made any similar connections either. One reason I believe this is that the books from the very beginning were intended as children's stories. As a result, I believe people of that era would have been much more inclined to accept the book as a tale of fancy without attempting to look for any hidden meaning or connections. I am not familiar with anyone having documented any such correlations until the US drug culture of the 1960s, which would further suggest that readers from previous eras did not make these same connections.

Off to read Chapter V - though still wondering what Lewis Carroll intended with the Caterpillar and his hookah pipe

[bellamarie]

JoanP., I found those same responses in my search and in the links provided....that is why I think we can never conclude definitively, as to what Carroll was or was not intending with the blue caterpillar smoking the hookah and what was in it. 
 
The 60's were known for their openness to drug use, but we know it was certainly something that came way before then. Leading up to, during and after the Vietnam war, drug use became so prevalent as to means to cope with having to deal with such a time in history.  Prior wars, it was alcohol to get them through.  Today it seems heroine is the choice of coping, and has become a huge cause of suicide even in our small little town I grew up in.  I did read somewhere and will find it when I have some down time, where it was mentioned Carroll did have a condition, which required him to take meds, that could have altered his thinking, and thought process while writing Alice and other books.  I know when those with mental conditions fail to take their meds, their condition heightens and their auditory hallucinations and paranoia becomes a reality to them. Knowing Carroll suffered some sort of experience as a boy, to make him hate little boys to the point of his very dark and violent lullaby, it would not surprise me this trauma could have manifested a predisposed genetic condition.

Anyways......let's proceed to see where Alice ends up next, since this will never be solved.   I'm sure we will find many more things to throw us into wonderment in "Wonderland."

Ciao for now~

[bellamarie]

One more link I found with reference to the caterpillar smoking the hookah....  

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/carroll/aiwl5.htmlOpium as a Possible Influence upon the Alice Books

Kate Connell '97 (English 61, Brown University, 1993)


[Victorian Web Home —> Authors —> Lewis Carroll —> Works —> Genre and Style —> Literary Relations—> Theme and Subject]

"The widespread use of opium during the Victorian period may have influenced or been reflected in Alice's Adventures In Wonderland. Mind altering experiences resulting from narcotics relate nicely to some of the detailed descriptions in the Alice books, such as the growing and shrinking and the image of the caterpillar smoking the hookah.

The complex dream atmosphere which Alice lives through can easily be compared to a mind-altering drug experience. The idea of eating a mushroom or drinking from a bottle that causes one to feel altered in some way parallels drug experience as well. In Carroll's time five out of six families used opium habitually (Wohl 34-35) Infant mortality was an extremely common result of use of the narcotic. It was said that infants "shrank up into little old men" when they became sick (Wohl 34-35). This image is strangely similiar to that of the duchess's baby turning into a pig.

The baby grunted again, and Alice looked very anxiously into it's face to see what was the matter with it. There could be no doubt that it had a very turn-up nose, much more like a snout than a real nose; also its eyes were getting extremely small for a baby. altogether Alice did not like the look of the thing at all. 'But perhaps it was only sobbing,' she thought, and looked into its eyes again, to see if there were any tears.

No, there were no tears. 'If you're going to turn into a pig, my dear,' said Alice, seriously, 'I'll have nothing more to do with you. Mind now!' The poor little thing sobbed again (or grunted it was impossible to say which), and they went on for some while in silence.

Regardless of whether or not the books are written as a result of opium use, it seems very likely that they refer to various aspects of its use. Perhaps Carroll, who loved children, argued its harmfulness to children. Or maybe it was included simply as a sign of the times — a reflection of the age."

end of article___

[PatH]

Bellamarie, I agree with you that the drug qustion isn't really solvable, and also with your conclusion:

Anyways......let's proceed to see where Alice ends up next, since this will never be solved.   I'm sure we will find many more things to throw us into wonderment in "Wonderland."

[marcie]

Now that we've met the caterpillar and move to the next chapter (5) we've got more humor in store.

How would you describe the caterpillar's attitude?

What do you think of the parody of Robert Southey's poem that begins, "You are old Father William..."?

[JoanP]

I enjoyed the exchange between Alice and the Caterpillar - and his persistant question - "Who are you?"  Here, Alice confesses that she's not really sure anymore.
I'm reminded of her response to the White Rabbit in preceding chapter, when he addressed her as a servant girl, (Marianne) -  Alice thought of how surprised he'll be "when he finds out who she is."  She seemeed to know then, but not anymore.

Do you think Carroll had anyone in mind in his caterpillar portrayal?  Clearly he's a male - older (he's smoking!) and seems to have little disregard for Alice.  She was plucky enough to follow up his question by asking him who he wa, though he asked why should he tell her who he was.  Just when he seemed to dismiss her altogether, he stops and warns her to keep her temper...and shows interest in hearing about how she's changed.  He's an older male, but not one who has authority over her.

What do you think of the parody of Robert Southey's poem that begins, "You are old Father William..."?

I read the annotations on the original those Father William lines, my first question was - could any child   understand them - let alone enjoy them?

[JoanP]

I looked up something on Robert Southey's original poem - and that I understood perfectly.

"You are old, father William, "the young man cried,
And pleasures with youth pass away.
And yet you lament not the days that are gone,
Now tell me the reason I pray."

To a child, Father William's response might have made as little sense as the verses that Alice recites here.



And I stumbled over this...didn't save the source, but it does provide a viewpoint -

"Lewis Carol had a crush on Alice's older sister (who was his own age). Back then, people were not allowed to date without an escort. So, the family used to send little Alice out with the happy couple when they took their walks through the English countryside. Carroll would tell imaginative stories to Alice, and most of the material for those stories was based on the subject of a liberal British elementary-schools education, such as logic, mathematics, nursery rhymes, etc. So most of the material behind the Alice in Wonderland stories is drawn from common cultural and educational references of Victorian England, as well as figures of speech interpreted literally (like the Mad Hatter), games (like chess and croquet), family crests, poems, songs, logic problems, etc. The Cheshire Cat was actually based on a base-relief carved into the wall of a church in Cheshire, England.

The stories were well received at the time, because everyone "got" the references. Now the book is regarded as a classic, mostly because of how well-liked it was when it was published. Unfortunately, modern readers don't get many of the cultural references, so they look for arcane meanings. Believe it or not, the book really was for kids."

The Caterpillar knows enough to tell Alice her verses are not right from beginning to end...and seems to conclude that for Alice to understand that, she must be larger - she must grow up?

[marcie]

Those are helpful insights, Joan, especially that "most of the material behind the Alice in Wonderland stories is drawn from common cultural and educational references of Victorian England, as well as figures of speech interpreted literally." I've read that alot of Victorian education for children was aimed at "character" education to raise the child from the "sinful state" of nature to a more godly plane of existence. I think that many children would have been somewhat shocked and thrilled with Carroll's parodies, changing the solemn moralizing tone of the originals to an outright funny spectacle.

I found a description of a book on "Lewis Carroll and the Victorian Stage" that shows the influence of Victorian theater on his life. It's "the first book to focus on Carroll's irresistible fascination with all things theatrical, from childhood charades and marionettes to active involvement in the dramatisation of Alice, influential contributions to the debate on child actors, and the friendship of leading players, especially Ellen Terry. As well as being a key to his complex and enigmatic personality, Carroll's interest in the theatre provides a vivid account of a remarkable era on the stage that encompassed Charles Kean's Shakespeare revivals, the comic genius of Frederick Robson, the heyday of pantomime, Gilbert and Sullivan, opera bouffe, the Terry sisters, Henry Irving, and favourite playwrights Tom Taylor, H. A. Jones, and J. M. Barrie. "

I recall some of the "farcical/slapstick" characters in Shakespeare and think that some of Carroll's creations are in the same genre.

[bellamarie]

"Repeat "You are old, Father William,' "said the Caterpillar.  Alice folded her hands, and began:__

My annotation says:  

Selwyn Goodacre (in Jabberwocky, Spring 1982) has an interesting comment on Alice's folded hands here, and her crossed hands is Chapter 2 ("as is she were saying lessons") when she repeated "How doth the little corocodile..."
                          I discussed these passages with a retired primary school headmaster...and he confirmed to me that        that is exactly how children were taught__i.e., they had to repeat their lessons (note that word is not "recite"__ that refers to house parties and home entertainment), this means, learning by rote; she would have been expected to know the lessons by heart__ and to cross her hands if sitting, to fold them if standing, both systems intended to concentrate the mind and prevent fidgeting.

After reading this, I asked myself, "could the Caterpillar be a school headmaster?"  

As far as the poem " You are old Father William", my take on it was the youth was asking Old Father William at his age how and why was he so happy and carefree.  Father William responds with letting the youth know you can be youthful at any age, and not to take life so seriously.  I especially liked the ending verse, I see father William attributes his life to God:  
                               "I am cheerful, young man, "father William replied,
                                    "Let the cause thy attention engage;
                                In the days of my youth, I remember'd my God!
                                    And He hath not forgotten my age."

I found a few links that touch on what the poem meant that gives other views.
http://www.ask.com/question/poem-you-are-old-father-william
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_Lewis_Carroll_write_the_poem_Father_William?#slide=20

"The meaning of the poem, 'You Are Old Father William is simply that the father feels that age is only a number to him now that he is older. The son questions why he does things, because he is young  yet and doesn't understand life as his father does."

Another view:

“In my youth, “Father William replied to his son, “I feared it might injure the brain; But now that I’m perfectly sure I have none, Why, I do it again and again.

 “In Southey's poem the young man admires his elder, and seeks an explanation as to how William has been so successful, presumably with a view to following the same path himself.

Whereas the youth in Carroll's rhyme appears to be admonishing William for his foolishness.

Southey's poem continues, in a very earnest tone with the ways in which William has had the good sense to preserve his health (with an implicit suggestion that we, as readers would do well to do the same) but

Carroll's verse does no such thing. It is full of silliness and joie de vivre. 'We don't want moral lessons,'

Carroll's poem seems to say, 'we want head stands!'

In this way Carroll is rebelling against the stifling attitude that Victorians had towards children, and supplying them instead with fun and laughter."



I can see why Carroll would want to put this poem in Alice in Wonderland, assuming the "children" would even get it.  He is telling them to have fun, and not take life so seriously, for your youth only lasts a short time, then you are old and grey, but even then you can be youthful and have fun!

Ciao for now~

[bookad]

below are points of interest from the book I am reading alongside 'Alice In Wonderland"

The Mystery of Lewis Carroll by Jenny Woolf, forward by Edward Wakeling

*Author comes by some of her information as had the luck to be notified of a bank account of Lewis from years 1856-1900----it had been held from when the bank closed and the new owners took over….the entire account was there and no family members of Lewis's had been thru the accounts to change or delete any information,... from his bank account she was able to learn many new facts as prior reading she had done was from biographies etc., & they  had  been disappointing as many had different summaries as to who Lewis Carroll was…..many of these comprising a variety of dark history suggestions, which she did not condone….the author's interest initially had began at age 8 upon reading a copy Lewis's book about Alice…the book by Ms Woolf was published 2010, and the author's brief biog on back sleeve of the book says she is a journalist in England now raising a family

*Lewis Carroll was born in 1832, the third child of 11 and the first boy (all children survived which was not usual for that time)…his father was a reverend and mom was kept busy raising kids….both parents loved their family but the mom didn't pay much attention to each individual child; a factor which caused Lewis much grief thru the years, his father seemed to pay a lot of attention and supported all the children even to the extent of buying a modest home for his unmarried daughters (only 1 sister married and her son became a biographer of Lewis Carroll--his name Stuart Collingwood)….Lewis being the eldest son became responsible to his family following his father's death to aid them financially and with their problems….this was expected of him from his birth…the family of siblings were very close and remained so thruout the years

*Lewis was taught at home by his father till he was 12 then he went to boarding school…some of which was a very unpleasant experience due to conduct acceptable at that period of time among school children."
…..
"At Eaton, in 1825 just 19 years before Carroll went to Rugby, the 13-year-old brother of the humanitarian Lord Shaftesbury was beaten to death in a fist fight. The boy's father did not prosecute because the fight had been conducted according to standard fist fighting rules."

"One of Carroll's major objections to Rugby (one of the schools he attended in England) was the unkindness of the bullying, and his continuous protectiveness towards the helpless would be a marked characteristic for the rest of his life."   

" Beating with a cane, both by masters and older boys, was commonplace, and Collingwood confirms that the general system of victimizing and tormenting younger boys would have been endemic in Carroll's day." {all the above from pg 23}

*Lewis was a older student of 12 years of age when he entered boarding school and therefore was not among the younger boys being victimized

*Lewis did not participate a lot as a reverend due to his speech impediment being self-conscious of his speech defect…..he was not the only one of his siblings with this problem….his interest in mathematics was also shared by at least one of his siblings a sister, Margaret

*Lewis spent the rest of his life living and working at Christ Church, Oxford now better know for being the school "Hogwarts" from the Harry Potter movie.

*Lewis had a favourite uncle, Robert W. Skeffington Lutwidge who introduced Lewis to photography and was a government inspector of asylums ….'mental disorders was one of Carroll's lifelong interests." pg 27….

* Lewis's family seems to have been very protective of information pertaining to their brother and when his diaries were published sections were not available for readers after the family had gone thru his writings as they chose to remove parts of his diary
………………………………..

The above are just bits I thought might be interesting with this discussion about Alice and the author….though after reading about previous biographers and their varying renditions of Lewis Carroll's life; it might be interesting to see how far apart their 'truths!' are, ….one theory about Lewis even suggested he might possibly have been Jack the Ripper along with another…each becoming the criminal on alternate trips to London!!!!!!!!

.............................

Deb

[PatH]

A further note on the caterpillar: The notes in my book say that at that time "Who are you?" was a fashionable catch phrase, so it would be funny to have the caterpillar use it.

[bellamarie]

Deb,  I had to crack up at this.....

The above are just bits I thought might be interesting with this discussion about Alice and the author….though after reading about previous biographers and their varying renditions of Lewis Carroll's life; it might be interesting to see how far apart their 'truths!' are, ….one theory about Lewis even suggested he might possibly have been Jack the Ripper along with another…each becoming the criminal on alternate trips to London!!!!!!!!

Of all the sites I have been to, I have to say I never came across the theory of Jack the Ripper!!      

One thing we know for certain, is that Charles Dodgson/Lewis Carroll was an interesting person, that has everyone trying to understand his complicated, intelligent mind.  I kind of think all the children who knew him was much like the youth in the poem, they admired his light heartedness, and fun stories.  Kids keep it simple.

Ciao for now~

[marcie]

Bellamarie, thank you for that information about the Father William poem. I tend to agree with the view you quoted that says "In this way Carroll is rebelling against the stifling attitude that Victorians had towards children, and supplying them instead with fun and laughter."

Deb, those bits about Dodgson's life are interesting and helpful. In the Norton edition of ALICE that I have, it says that his father was strictly religious but that he sometimes wrote whimsical letters to his son. For example:

"No father, perhaps, ever sent his son a more direct invitation to devote himself to nonsense than did Canon Dodgson when he wrote to Charles at the age of eight:

    . . I will not forget your commission. As soon as I get to Leeds I shall scream out in the middle of the street, Ironmongers—Ironmongers — Six hundred men will rush out of their shops in a moment — fly, fly, in all directions — ring the bells, call the constables — set the town on fire. I will have a file & a screw-driver, & a ring, & if they are not brought directly, in forty seconds I will leave nothing but one small cat alive in the whole town of Leeds, & I shall only leave that, because I am afraid I shall not have time to kill it.

    Then what a bawling & a tearing of hair there will be I Pigs & babies, camels & butterflies, rolling in the gutter together — old women rushing up the chimneys & cows after them — ducks hiding themselves in coffee cups, & fat geese trying to squeeze themselves into pencil cases — at last the Mayor of Leeds will be found in a soup plate covered up with custard & stuck full of almonds to make him look like a sponge cake that he may escape the dreadful destruction of the Town."

[marcie]

The Annotated Alice has Tenniel's illustrations of the Father William poem adapted by Carroll. Which illustrations of Carroll's version of the poem do you find especially funny or interesting?

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/You_Are_Old,_Father_William
If you click the image on the right you'll see an enlarged illustration.

[JoanP]

Marcie - thanks for sharing some background on Charles Dodgdon's father!  I remember from reading the tidbits Deb posted above-

*Lewis was taught at home by his father till he was 12 then he went to boarding school

Very formative age, which does explain more the writer's taste for nonsense, I think.

Since you asked which of the Father William verses and illustration most enjoyable, you sent me back to consider them more closely.

I'll have to chose these lines...though it was close!

"You are old, Father William," the young man said,
 "And your hair has become very white;
 And yet you incessantly stand on your head—
 Do you think, at your age, it is right?"
 
"In my youth," Father William replied to his son,
 "I feared it might injure the brain;
 But now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
 Why, I do it again and again."
 

And this drawing -

[JoanP]

Deb - thank you for taking the time to repost the material you lost the day before.
I thought this item from your post was interesting -

"*Lewis had a favourite uncle, Robert W. Skeffington Lutwidge who introduced Lewis to photography and was a government inspector of asylums ….'mental disorders was one of Carroll's lifelong interests."

I also read in my Annotated that "Carroll was an enthusiastic charter member all his life of the Society for Psychical Research and his library contained dozens of books on the occult."

This note was included to explain these lines when Alice tried to decide which side of the caterpillar to eat to make her bigger:
"One side of what?  The other side of what?" thought Alice to herself.
"Of the mushroom, said the Caterpillar, just as if she had asked it aloud."

Was it you who tagged the Caterpillar as a schoolmaster, Bella?  He certainly had the patience, though he didn't concur, he did stop and consider what she was saying and gave her the information she told him she needed.

The note says that "Carroll did not believe in spiritualism, but did believe in the reality of ESP and pschokinesis...wrote a pamphlet on it...believed that Psychic phenomena are genuine."

I'll tell you what - I would love to believe in ESP as Carroll did.  I think I need tutoring on effectively sending such messages.  Will be looking for further examples of this in upcoming chapters.

ps  PatH - "Who are you?" - a fashionable catch phrase" at the time  - Loved it!

[marcie]

JoanP, it seems to me that Tenniel illustrated that poem with more images than he provided in other chapters. Each of the verses has an illustration. Tenniel must have enjoyed the parody.

I found the illustration you picked very funny. I like this one too:



You are old," said the youth, "As I mentioned before,
And have grown most uncommonly fat;
Yet you turned a back-somersault in at the door—
Pray, what is the reason of that?"