Author Topic: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OCT. 14,2009-Feb.17,2020  (Read 41752 times)

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #160 on: November 20, 2019, 10:22:03 PM »
Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:


Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~

Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion

Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved
January 06.......Branwen the Daughter of Llyr
January 13.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr
January 20.......Math the Son of Mathonwy
January 27.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig
February 03.....The Story of Lludd and Llevelys
February 10.....Taliesin

Discussion Leader: Barbara


Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #161 on: November 21, 2019, 09:35:39 AM »
Post-Roman Wales: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dyfed#/media/File:Wales.post-Roman.jpg

I was checking place names from the back and fore travels of Arthur and the Irish invaders and was lucky enough to find mention of  Porth Cleis elsewhere. It is a small creek on St. David's Head, Pembrookshire You can zoom the map in and out. Some pix below. Of course, the marina wasn't there way back when, and it looks like it did or does still draw back considerable at low tide.  https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/34342/details/porthclais

Cats are pesting for lunch. Be back later.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #162 on: November 21, 2019, 11:18:22 AM »
Sorry out of pocket - my tummy took a hit on some chicken the other night and I'm still not 100%

I remember when we were talking about which book to tackle and learned the lays was a word used to say stories - never knew that.

Noticed that with Kai - what crossed my mind he was talked of in a negative way in I think it was the second story and thought that he was a personality that was not as much a groupie as the others.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #163 on: November 21, 2019, 11:33:19 AM »
Okay, I'm back with more findings.

Mynyw is  the city of St. Davids which figures largely in Welsh history and religion. Preseleu appears to be the Presili Hills (or in earlier times mountains) near St. Davids. Both are part of Pembrokeshire.

Glyn means valley as does Cym. Cym is a particular landform which is described as a valley that is amphitheater like in shape from glacial erosion. And here are a few example of what it might have looked like. http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/physical/glaciers/corrie.html  Here is the Afon Nyver at Nevern. It appears to be a stream or creek and features in one of the pilgrimage walks in the area. You can also click in and out on the map to get an idea of the area Arthur et. al. had to cover to chase down Twrch Trwyth   https://my.viewranger.com/route/details/MjNfMzY0Nw==

From Archaeologica Cambrensis: "... It was in this cantrief [e. i.  Cantref Gwarthaf ], too,  that the district of Pelunyawc ( Peuliniog)--called after a Peulin (of Capel Paulin) , or Paulinus--had its situation. This district of Peulinyawc, in the Red Book of Heregest, in the story of Kulhwch and Olwen, is wrongly called Pelumyawc. "  I think this passage shows up the difficulty with place names being spelled every which way. At any rate, I am not finding it just now.

One more for now. Aberteivi is Cardigan. From Wikipedia: "The Welsh name Aberteifi refers to its position by the mouth (aber) of the River Teifi. "

I saw back in that 2016  Welsh overland safari posted info offering  a tour following all this chasing around after Twrch Trwyth, but I don't see it mentioned in their current listings.

Hi Barb, sorry to hear you are under the weather.

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #164 on: November 21, 2019, 05:59:56 PM »
I forgot to mention that in my reading, I am trying to find out if/when the Welsh invaded Ireland. All I've seen so far is that the Irish in coordination (that's hard to believe) with the Anglo-Saxons and Picts invaded Wales and surrounds. I also discovered that inhabitants of the Isle of Man were originally a Briton speaking people, but I don't remember if they were directly controlled by Welsh interests. The Irish invaded it and for a time the Celtic Irish became mixed in with the Briton language, enough that it changed the language so that they were no longer Welsh speaking or understandable to the Welsh. I have a mind to look up a history of the Isle of Man because now I am curious.

I've just a little while ago finished reading the story. After all those trials, the end seemed a bit abrupt or anti-climactic. The whole of the story reminds me of a rather bloody scavenger hunt. Here again, the Irish invasion I came across was later than the original Arthur stories, 8th and/or 9th centuries if I recall right. Arthur must have been such a great character to portray that the storytellers just kept adding tales to keep their audiences happy. It is kind of like the serial fiction books we have today. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #165 on: November 22, 2019, 01:16:45 PM »
Yes, Frybabe I think that is how these stories came to be as we read them today - for hundreds of years various aspects were either blown up or changed to suite the experience of the audience and the skill of the storyteller. This aspect is so apparent in the many Ballads about the same character or theme - I have the Child's collection which was done in the later years of the nineteenth century that does include a few about Arthur and his knights but more about Robin Hood and then a few of the Chaucer stories are about the knights we are reading about - I think having a list of the names that one knight is called in different stories and languages would help me.

I'm thinking that Owain had some issue with his lady-wife --- there is a ballad about him and a lady who he meets after dark and is beautiful - he beds her admiring her beauty but when morning arrives with the light of day she is an ugly old hag and Owain has to decide if he want her beauty at night when no one will know he must accept her appearance in the day knowing everyone will see and assume he has married an old ugly hag.

In another version of this story a mother dies, and daughter Isabel's father marries a vile woman who abuses and enchants her till Owyne (Owain) shall rescue her. Owyne comes and sees a hideous beast. Despite her appearance, despite threats, he kisses her three times and restores her.

In another version of this same story Arthur, after Christmas, had been encountered at Tarn Wadling, in the forest of Inglewood, by a bold baron armed with a club, who offered him the choice of fighting, or ransoming himself by coming back on New Year's day and bringing word what women most desire. Arthur puts this question in all quarters, and having collected many answers, in which, possibly, he had little confidence, he rides to keep his day.

On the way he meets a frightfully ugly woman; she intimates that she could help him. Arthur promises her Gawain in marriage, if she will, and she imparts to him the right answer. Arthur finds the baron waiting for him at the tarn, and presents first the answers which he had collected and written down. These are contemptuously rejected.

Arthur then says that he had met a lady on a moor, who had told him that a woman would have her will. The baron says that the misshapen lady on the moor was his sister, and he will burn her if he can get hold of her. Upon Arthur's return he tells his knights that he has a wife for one of them, and they ride with the king to see her, or perhaps for her to make her choice.

When they see the bride, they decline the match in vehement terms, all but Gawain, who is somehow led to waive "a little foul sight and misliking." She is bedded in all her repulsiveness, and turns to a beautiful young woman. To try Gawain's compliance further, she asks him whether he will have her in this likeness by night only or only by day.

Putting aside his own preference, Gawain leaves the choice to her, and this is all that is needed to keep her perpetually beautiful. For a stepmother had witched her to go on the wild moor in that fiendly shape until she should meet some knight who would let her have all her will. Her brother, under a like spell, was to challenge men either to fight with him at odds or to answer his hard question.

And then in another of many versions of the same Ballad (Child traveled all over Britain, Scotland and Ireland collecting the Ballads - he included no music only the words sung to him with any description offered by either the singer or those in the house or village where he hears the Ballad) and some give this version another name as The Weddynge of Sr Gawen and Dame Ragnell

This versions has Arthur, while hunting in Ingleswood, stalked and finally shot a great hart, which fell in a fern-brake. While the king, alone and far from his men, was engaged in making the assay, there appeared a groom, bearing the quaint name of Gromer Somer Joure, who grimly told him that he meant now to requite him for having taken away his lands. Arthur represented that it would be a shame to knighthood for an armed man to kill a man in green, and offered him any satisfaction. The only terms Gromer would grant were that Arthur should come back alone to that place that day twelvemonth, and then tell him what women love best; not bringing the right answer, he was to lose his head. The king gave his oath, and they parted.

The knights, summoned by the king's bugle, found him in heavy cheer, and the reason he would at first tell no man, but after a while took Gawain into confidence. Gawain advised that they two should ride into strange country in different directions, put the question to every man and woman they met, and write the answers in a book. This they did, and each made a large collection.

Gawain thought they could not fail, but the king was anxious, and considered that it would be prudent to spend the only month that was left in prosecuting the inquiry in the region of Ingleswood. Gawain agreed that it was good to be speering, and bade the king doubt not that some of his saws should help at need.

Arthur rode to Ingleswood, and met a lady, riding on a richly-caparisoned palfrey, but herself of a hideousness which beggars words; nevertheless the items are not spared. She came up to Arthur and told him that she knew his counsel; none of his answers would help. If he would grant her one thing, she would warrant his life; otherwise, he must lose his head. This one thing was that she should be Gawain's wife. The king said this lay with Gawain; he would do what he could, but it were a pity to make Gawain wed so foul a lady. " No matter," she rejoined, " though I be foul: choice for a mate hath an owl. When thou comest to thine answer, I shall meet thee; else art thou lost."

The king returned to Carlisle with a heart no lighter, and the first man he saw was Gawain, who asked how be had sped. Never so ill: he had met a lady who had offered to save his life, but she was the foulest he had ever seen, and the condition was that Gawain should be her husband. "Is that all?" said Gawain. "I will wed her once and again, though she were the devil; else were I no friend." Well might the king exclaim, "Of all knights thou bearest the flower!"

After five or six days more the time came for the answer. The king had hardly ridden a mile into the forest when he met the lady, by name Dame Ragnell. He told her Gawain should wed her, and demanded her answer. "Some say this and some say that, but above all things women desire to have the sovereignty; tell this to the knight; he will curse her that told thee, for his labor is lost." Arthur, thus equipped, rode on as fast as he could go, through mire and fen. Gromer was waiting, and sternly demanded the answer. Arthur offered his two books, for Dame Ragnell had told him to save himself by any of those answers if he could. "Nay, nay, king," said Gromer, "thou art but a dead man." "Abide, Sir Gromer, I have an answer shall make all sure. Women desire sovereignty." "She that told thee that was my sister, Dame Ragnell; I pray I may see her burn on a fire." And so they parted.

Dame Ragnell was waiting for Arthur, too, and would hear of nothing but immediate fulfillment of her bargain. She followed the king to his court, and required him to produce Gawain instantly, who came and plighted his troth. The queen begged her to be married privately, and early in the morning. Dame Ragnell would consent to no such arrangement. She would not go to church till high-mass time, and she would dine in the open hall. At her wedding she was dressed more splendidly than the queen, and she sat at the head of the table at the dinner afterwards. There her appetite was all but as horrible as her person: she ate three capons, three curlews, and great bake meats, all that was set before her, less and more.

She chided Gawain for his 'offishness', and begged him to kiss her, at least. "I will do more," said Gawain, and, turning, beheld the fairest creature he ever saw. But the transformed lady told him that her beauty would not hold: he must choose whether she should be fair by night and foul by day, or fair by day and foul by night. Gawain said the choice was hard, and left all to her. "Gramercy," said the lady, "thou shalt have me fair both day and night." Then she told him that her step-dame had turned her into that 'monstrons' shape by necromancy, not to recover her own till the best knight in England had wedded her and given her sovereignty in all points.

In yet another version the hoodie, a species of crow, having married the youngest of a farmer's three daughters, says to her, "Whether wouldst thou rather that I should be a hoodie by day and a man at night, or be a hoodie at night and a man by day?" The woman maintains her proper sovereignty, and does not leave the decision to him: "'I would rather that thou wert a man by day and a hoodie at night,' says she. After this he was a splendid fellow by day, and a hoodie at night." Then there is a German version where the choice is a bear by day or by night...

And so with all of that I am comfortable that these stories were altered during various times and in various locations and even more, since they were written several hundred years after they were supposed to take place I am sure the morality and thinking of the writers enter these stories. Probably explains why these Welsh versions differ from the French version which differs again from the versions we have of Robert de Baron
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #166 on: November 22, 2019, 01:30:09 PM »
look what I came across - The Adventures of Arthur at the Tarn Wadling https://www.sfsu.edu/~medieval/romances/awntyrs_rev.html
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #167 on: November 24, 2019, 06:15:22 PM »
Kilhwch and Olwen is a rather odd story.  A large fraction of it is taken up with things that don't really advance the action.  First, we have pages naming all of King Arthur's men and their parentage.  Then we have brief descriptions of almost forty tasks Kilhwch must do before he can marry Olwen.  These are done mostly by Arthur's men; we don't see much of Kilhwch.  Then he claims Olwen and goes off with her, and that's it.  During the second half of the story, about all he says is  "It will be easy for me to compass this, although thou mayest think that it will not be easy."

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #168 on: November 24, 2019, 07:43:51 PM »
Read iin several sites that their identity with a family as part of a group determined who you were and what law you could turn to. Today we say we are from the US or Spain or China - National boundaries only came about when Kings were the leaders where as Arthur was only called a king but did not have the same concept of kingdom as later - Charlemagne's grandfather, Charles Martel appears to be the first king whose nobility is passed with the kingdom and a government that included law.

From everything I read the only law in Wales at the time of Arthur was an ancient code as compared to Rome or even the Visigothic Code was more current and written closer to a document we could understand... here is the Visigothic Code - https://libro.uca.edu/vcode/index.pdf

All to say the list of knights probably had more meaning when they were written down - we still ask a new acquaintance who was your daddy which sorta establishes someone's place as you continue if they related to this or that family - the list in the story sorta laid out the extent of the so called kingdom that was simply a land area with out firm boundaries other than what nature provided, like mountains and which knight was from what castle that included surrounding land where the peasants were still serfs whose payment was to get protection from the castle. - it appears it was a case of who pledged to be with us and who is not.

But yes, Pat you nailed it - not much action - I'm thinking it would be as if someone was listing all the ranchers in south Texas who seem to sit together and vote as a block for certain government positions. This was the group it was important to get some oil and gas men included back in the 1940s and 50s. I guess if we knew where the castle of each knight was located it would make a point explaining the extent of Arthur's kingdom.

From what I've read Charles Martel started his sovereignty over a certain land area by including and getting the blessings and support of the Catholic Church over the earlier leaders who were more like Arthur, there by virtue of his own merit or by some magic the people believed ran in the blood of a certain family. However, as a story it was like trying to pick out the bits from thousands of words and names.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #169 on: November 24, 2019, 08:08:46 PM »
Tomorrow we start of The Dream of Rhonabwy https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab18.htm

Its far shorter a story than we have had so far - good - busy week... Thanksgiving on Thursday - forgot till I only read yesterday - remember learning that as a kid that the Pilgrims landed on December 22 and I forgot now which President established Thanksgiving as a national holiday.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #170 on: November 25, 2019, 08:48:36 AM »
Yes, Barb, ancestry was important.  I kind of wondered if one purpose of this particular telling of the story was partly archival.

The sagas start off with even longer genealogies, going back 3 generations or more.  Of course they are partly keeping track of who they are mad at.  They never forget a grudge.

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #171 on: November 25, 2019, 08:52:26 AM »
Now we're getting to the part that particularly interests me.  Many of the Arthurian legends are familiar to me, though not these particular ones, but I'm really eager to read these other stories, more particularly tied into Welsh history, which I've only seen a tiny bit of elsewhere.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #172 on: November 25, 2019, 02:58:54 PM »
For one thing Pat reading the Arthur stories as a discussion of the Mabinogion I'm learning for the first time the varied authors who added bits and pieces to what we can call the Arthur saga - and so now another peek into the stories from the ancient history of Wales - with frybabe's roots in Wales I wonder how much of these stories were everyday references in today's Welsh culture.  I can see this time in history continuing to be tweaked as those whose life's work appears to be tracking down any bit of history surrounding Arthur. In fact I never realized he originated in Wales - so much easy access today seems to focus on the romantic aspect of the story - I never got into the Avalon books either - I think there are three to that series which I'm anxious now to read.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #173 on: November 25, 2019, 03:01:05 PM »
Looks like another list of names...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #174 on: November 25, 2019, 05:13:14 PM »
Barb, I tried the first Avalon book and couldn't get into it at all.  Something in the style put me off.  I'm in the minority, though.  The books are much admired.

Did you notice how Kilhwch's father picked a second wife after Kilhwch's mother died?

"Said one of his counsellors, "I know a wife that will suit thee well, and she is the wife of King Doged." And they resolved to go to seek her; and they slew the king, and brought away his wife and one daughter that she had along with her. And they conquered the king's lands."

You sure didn't get to pick your fate if you were a woman.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #175 on: November 25, 2019, 06:25:15 PM »
ah so I guess I should be thankful for what happened in my early years compared to this - sheesh - yes, but then it fits with my research on the Church and found to this day the belief is that life is active and since the sperm is active and the egg passive men are superior - yep... it's like how much more and then recently after reading the Tao for years someone in China interprets the ying yang as dark and light - void and life - passive and active - female and male - its never ending... and since forever there is this concept that feelings are female and therefore not to be considered, I am sure that was how the mating of couples were arranged by these 'good' knights - sans feelings even of the grief for a husband murdered.

Pat I am tackling this backwards but I too am clearing out so that I can move either next year or the latest the following year - I think up the road a bit to Salado - Austin is no longer the city I knew and will only get worse - more folks here now from other areas of the country and the world than there are Texans much less Austinites. For the past couple of years, gradually at first all the iconic restaurants and small shops are closing and the City Council has gone nuts - I'm too old to get in the middle of the fray as I did in the past - time to hang it up and let those who will be living here for the next 40 or more years work it out - although I get the impression many do not see the city as a home but more as a stopping off point and that is part of the problem. They are taking from the city rather than giving back. - well too easy to go on a rant but I know you've been clearing out for a major move and thought I would share I am also sorting through and trashing 53 years of living in this house.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #176 on: November 26, 2019, 06:52:59 AM »
Barb, I really don't know to what extent the Arthur legends are regarded in Wales. I think the legend of the origin of the flag is pretty well set in stone, though. Mom certainly never told us any of the Arthur tales, nor did we ever get any Arthur related gifts from overseas. I guess girls were not thought of as being interested in such adventures (I've always liked adventure tales). When Mom was growing up the Welsh language was still not being taught in the schools. Although the English "overlords" were for a very long time trying to stamp out the Welsh language (and, I would imagine some of the culture as a result, though I am only guessing at that), they never quite succeeded. All my years growing up, the King Arthur legend, to me, was a tale of English Knights. It has only been relatively recently that I became aware that he was actually Welsh. I suspect this resurgence in learning Welsh has also sparked a higher interest in Welsh history and folk tales and legends.

Sorry to hear about the changes in the Austin area. I've been hearing noises from my girlfriend in Colorado about the changes in Denver and surrounds too. She has said that in some areas property prices have plummeted, and there have been some altercations between the newcomers and long-time residents. I think that includes the Californians that have moved into the state and brought Californian ideas/ideals with them that Coloradans do not share, especially those ideas that put areas of California into the state they are in now. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #177 on: November 26, 2019, 12:57:24 PM »
Yep frybabe, same here with Californians along with some from NYC - only the opposite, our property values are soaring - affordability is out the window for teachers, police, firemen and most service workers.

For us the issue is a mayor who turned on what he was voted in as and has embraced UN Agenda 21 to the extent of traveling to California and arranging with Newsom, he thought secretly, for thousands of homeless to be bused here where they set up their tents in public places - we had about 2000 homeless and were inching along to take care of them however, since last Spring they have been flowing in so the estimate now is 11,000 -

He also tied the hands of the police giving the homeless carte blanch with the excuse they had no money to pay a fine - he removed the 'no camping in public' that was established back in 2002 while they continued to work on the problem and now, he further tying the hands of police with no low crime for any citizen to be ticketed - the drug dealers have multiplied 10 fold as this is really a drug addiction issue politely called a homeless issue. Which means we now have a large presence of Mexican Cartels that has not yet erupted in violence. 

All this as a form of a land grab where he spent 8 million of tax payer money to buy a defunct hotel that will only house less then 200 and the appraised value of the structure was less then 3 million -

I've had them strew all over my front lawn (their dining room) their left over paper and food during the night from a nearby Wendy's, that now closes early and they use my front lawn as their bathroom killing several of my plants - Getting out and cleaning up their mess is no longer easy on my body - there is a recall petition however he is in office till 2022 and all this in a year as he continues to barrel on -

The town is exploding with so many high tech companies so that we have been receiving for over 10 years an average of 150 people a day - not enough housing and now he is changing all the zoning with a new code so any in-town property will be able to be replaced with multi story housing in established neighborhood without any concern for traffic or parking. He does all this because of how the changes were worded so that we thought we were voting for one thing and all we were really voting for was to give more power to the City Council to act without any citizen input.

It is a mess and I only see once the barn door is opened you can never close it back to they way it was. And yes, I see change must take place when only 9 years ago we were pushing to say we were a town of a million and in the next 20 years we will be a town of 4 and a half million.  It is the lawlessness that concerns me the most - if you have not read UN Agenda 21 and Agenda 2030 I suggest you do so -

The Agenda's sound benign enough on the UN page till you listen to a few explanations available on Youtube. All it appears to take is to line an elected officials pocket or show them how they can make a fortune and inch by inch the US becomes a step child to the UN.

After seeing the PBS real story of the Hatfield and McCoy's and its relationship to the industrialization of America so that folks in the area lost their independence and became minions to industry, I am seeing that is what is going on now as we are in a fight to keep our nation and our own constitution rather than becoming a minion of the UN, replacing our constitution with theirs which does not promise the opportunities or some of the freedoms as the US Constitution

I'm also seeing a before-change as these stories of Arthur explain a way of life that when gun powder made change, like so many changes, they threw the baby out with the bath water. Now my question is does change leave no room for the baby?

Well bottom line I'm too old to effectively take on this fight - the stress alone affects my ability to physically function and so best is to move out. I've seen lots of change since I moved in this house in 1967 but it was change that in time we adjusted but this change are users taking what was good and what worked in Austin and leaving behind a dead carcass.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #178 on: November 27, 2019, 07:12:53 AM »
Barb, I don't know about the homeless situation in the Denver area, but there is a problem with a large influx of people from south of the border being resettled in that area. It seems the gov and/or low rent housing entities are buying up houses and placing these people in those houses. In the case of her friend, his new neighbors were partying loudly and other things that were disturbing the peace and some of which were against local ordinances. He went over to ask them to tone it down. The result of that was he was visited by the police (and the appropriate Feds)  and taken away in handcuffs. I expect there was more to the story than Leslie reported to me, but it appears her friend is not alone in seeing this new influx of people ignoring or ignorant of our laws and ordinances and the resulting degradation of property values.

Here, we are not hearing much. Yet. There is a growing Muslim population in the Lehigh Valley (Allentown area), but I don't hear much if anything about conflicts with others. A large Muslim enclave there is headed by an Imam who is the subject of ongoing attempts by the Iranian government to have him sent back for prosecution for activities against the regime.

Okay, back to our current story. I noticed that more attention is being paid to describing the clothing and coordinating coverings of the knights' horses. Other than that, nothing is jumping out at me this time. Owain is just now showing up in the story. However, I have been a little distracted this week, so I need to pay more attention and reread some of it.

I watched the first of three half hour programs on Amazon Prime called Celtic Myths. It starts out with Arthur, goes on to Boudicca, and then describes a myth about a giant who had given his sister to an Irish king whose household treated her badly. So, here is a myth about the Welsh invading Ireland to rescue the maiden. It was in interesting tale including the explanation of some of the customs regarding Celtic marriages. What interested me most about this first episode, though, is the explanation of the importance of the cauldron to the Celtic tribes and showed some of the cauldrons that have been unearthed.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #179 on: November 27, 2019, 03:36:19 PM »
Forever since I did that - lost my entire post - ah so...

Wishing everyone a wonderful Thanksgiving Day that is full of gratitude - which makes me aware how grateful I am that y'all are joining this discussion about a wonderful book that is giving us so many bits to research and so many documentaries to watch - we will know our Arthur stories for sure and that is a wonderful satisfying feeling... back on Friday...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #180 on: November 29, 2019, 06:09:28 AM »
Barb, I expect there is a lot of symbolism in  Rhonabwy's dream. I can't make much sense out of King Arthur dismissing the men who came to complain about the Raven attacks while he plays games of chess. Interesting that while  Rhonabwy lay sleeping and dreaming on a yellow calfskin, yellow to be a favorite color for the clothing, banners, etc. that the Knights were wearing.

Here is a video I watched last night. Not much to do with Arthur, but does show Cardiff Castle and Caerphilly Castle. When we were there, we visited Cardiff Castle, but were not able to go inside because of a wedding going on. The castle keep looks a lot bigger on film than I remember, and I don't remember going inside. Too bad the video does not show any of the bookshelves with the shelve covers down.  Caerphilly was not open to the public when we were there, so we only got to see it from the road as we went by.  I never knew there was a Roman museum or Roman ruins nearby. Yeah, I know. It begins with nothing to do with Wales. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r6kRXiai_4

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #181 on: November 29, 2019, 12:48:18 PM »
Interesting Frybabe - enjoyed the film - he sure talks fast as if a recording that the speed was accidentally put on fast... goodness... but he would hit on various words for emphasis and that made him easy to follow. Time is funny - when 18th century history is shown it seems like so long ago and yet when Roman ruins are shown it seems amazing that 2000 years later we can still see their footprint. And then for a castle to act as an effective fortress for 1500 years is jaw dropping.

The Chaucer room reminded me years ago one of the agents in our office was marketing a house in which Chaucer was the theme of this entire house -  large, on the lake, with an huge, 2 story, glassed indoor pool - the fascinating part was every room had low beamed ceilings and as much 15 and 16th century furniture that they could find and have shipped over. Some of the walls were painted as if an illustration from the book and all the bathroom and kitchen tile work was imprinted with symbols and scenes from the stories. Actually tastefully done - and of course an upstairs library holding what looked like every book ever published about medieval Europe. I never did hear and wondered if the buyer kept the theme of the property.   

Trying to put some of this in perspective - Chaucer's tales were written in the 14th century which is later than when the Arthur tales were committed to paper - aha so Beowulf was put to paper also at the same time as the Arthur stories - seems to me I saw some film showing life during the time of Beowulf - should take a look - so many films on my saved page and I've things to do - but no decent TV and so I may get a few under my belt.

Rainy and just getting cold today - no predicted winter storm yesterday and hardly a storm today - maybe in other areas of the country. Noticed they had a re-run of the Macy parade later in the day yesterday. Sunday is December 1 - Advent begins...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #182 on: November 30, 2019, 07:49:01 AM »
While looking for info on YouTube about the Reconquista in Spain, I ran across a video showing an interesting helmet. No, it doesn't have anything to do with what we are reading, but several pieces of artwork shown during the video includes a very interesting helmet. So I went in search of a good picture of this helmet and finally found a good one. http://segwaytripvalencia.com/es/component/tags/tag/arte  James I of Aragon (aka: James I the Conqueror) lived between 1208 and 1276.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #183 on: December 01, 2019, 01:55:12 AM »
BLACK Primordial darkness; the non-manifest; the Void; evil; the darkness of death; shame; despair; destruction; corruption; grief; sadness; humiliation; renunciation; gravity; constancy. Heraldic: Prudence; wisdom.

GREEN Ambivalent as both life and death in the vernal green of life and the livid green of death; also as youth, hope and gladness but equally change, transitoriness and jealousy. Compounded of blue and yellow, heaven and earth combined, green forms the mystic colour; it also combines the cold blue light of the intellect with the emotional warmth of the yellow sun to produce the wisdom of equality, hope, renewal of life and resurrection... and in medieval times it became the colour of the Trinity, Epiphany and St John the Evangelist.

RED The zenith of colour; represents the sun and all war gods. It is the masculine, active principle; fire; the sun; royalty; love; joy; festivity; passion; ardour; energy; ferocity; sexual excitement; the bridal torch or fire; health; strength; also blood; blood-lust; blood-guiltiness; anger; vengeance; martyrdom; fortitude; faith; magnanimity. It can also be the colour of the desert and calamity. Staining or painting red depicts renewal of life. Red with white is death; red with white and black represent the three stages of initiation.

WHITE The undifferentiated; transcendent perfection; simplicity; light; sun; air; illumination; purity; innocence; chastity; holiness; sacredness; redemption; spiritual authority. A white robe indicates purity, chastity or the triumph of the spirit over the flesh;...the White Lily, is woman, the feminine principle, the moon, silver, quicksilver, the purity of undivided light and the second stage of the Great Work.

YELLOW Ambivalent, light or golden yellow is solar; the light of the sun; intellect; intuition; faith and goodness. Dark yellow denotes treachery; treason; jealousy; ambition; avarice; secrecy; betrayal; faithlessness.


 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #184 on: December 01, 2019, 02:02:09 AM »
sumpter pack is A packhorse; a beast of burden.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #185 on: December 01, 2019, 02:56:58 AM »
Gold The sun; illumination; the self-luminous; the quality of sacredness; incorruptibility; wisdom; durability; the equilibrium of all metallic properties; nobility; honour; superiority; wealth.

Silver The moon; virginity; the feminine aspect with gold as the masculine; the Queen with the King as gold.

Chess The royal game of life; the conflict between the spiritual powers of light and darkness; angels and demons struggling for domination of the world; existence as a field of action of opposing powers and forces; manifestation and re-absorption.

Raven A talking bird, hence prophecy; otherwise ambivalent as either solar or the darkness of evil, as wisdom or the destruction of war. Ravens and wolves are often familiars of primitive gods of the dead...the ‘Raven of Battle’, symbolizes war; bloodshed; panic; malevolence...When all black the raven is a bird of ill-omen, but with a white feather it becomes beneficent.

Eagle Solar; the symbol of all sky gods; the meridian sun; the spiritual principle; ascension; inspiration; release from bondage; victory; pride; contemplation; apotheosis; royalty; authority; strength; height; the element of air. Thought to be able to fly up to the sun and gaze unwaveringly upon it and to identify with it, the eagle represents the spiritual principle in man which is able to soar heavenwards.

BLUE Truth; the Intellect; revelation; wisdom; loyalty; fidelity; constancy; chastity; chaste affections; spotless reputation; magnanimity; prudence; piety; peace; contemplation; coolness. Blue is the colour of the great deep, the feminine principle of the waters; as sky-blue it is the colour of the Great Mother, Queen of Heaven and of all sky gods or sky powers, such as the Azure Dragon. It is also the Void; primordial simplicity and infinite space which, being empty, can contain everything. It is also a lunar colour.

Spanish Laton is brass

Leopard Cruelty; ferocity; aggression; intrepidity. The leopard’s spots resembling eyes, the animal is called the Great Watcher.

Ruby: Royalty, dignity, zeal, power, love, passion, beauty, longevity, invulnerability.

Sapphire: Truth, heavenly virtues, celestial contemplation, chastity, apotropaic.

Jewels symbolize hidden treasures of knowledge or truth... The cutting and shaping of precious stones signifies the soul shaped from the rough, irregular, dark stone into the gem, regular in shape and reflecting divine light.

Lion Ambivalent as both solar and lunar, good and evil... the fiery principle; majesty; strength; courage; fortitude; justice; law; military might; the King of the Beasts; but it is also cruelty; ferocity; and the sub-human modes of life; it is a symbol of war and an attribute of war gods.

Ash typifies adaptability, prudence, modesty.

Griffin A fabulous beast with the head and talons of an eagle and body of a lion, without wings, in heraldry. It symbolizes the sun, the sky, the light of dawn turning to gold, also the combined powers of the eagle and lion. As a guardian of treasures it denotes vigilance and vengeance.



Cooper, J. C.. An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols . Thames & Hudson. Kindle Edition.



“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #186 on: December 01, 2019, 02:59:22 AM »
This last bit says to me that the entire dream used symbolism and it appears that symbolism even in the middle ages required a book as a reference.

And this is the reason that no one knows the dream without a book, neither bard nor gifted seer; because of the various colours that were upon the horses, and the many wondrous colours of the arms and of the panoply, and of the precious scarfs, and of the virtue-bearing stones.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #187 on: December 01, 2019, 06:09:41 PM »
OK here is what I think will be best - Not only is Pat out of town till the middle of the week but also there is not as much time this holiday season - there are other books I have neglected plus, bunches of videos on the middle ages, Arthur, the Celts, Norman's, Saxons on and on it goes - I've 8 series and 12 single movies on all these subjects to watch.

I'm thinking since this chapter is the last of this group, according to how Lady Guest arranged her book, let's finish with this chapter and pick up after the New Year with Branwen the Daughter of Llyr - The discussion will be here so anything anyone wants to add till after the New Year will be fine - I may, as I watch some of the video's, share a bit but, as to the discussion, let's finish this chapter this week on Pwyll Prince of Dyved and then take our break.

We have learned so much reading just this first half so that I am really looking forward to the next half of the book - thanks frybabe - this was a great suggestion and then it was on the strength of your early suggestion that we chose the Mabinogion - just that alone - we learned what Mabinogion means. We have come so far...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #188 on: December 02, 2019, 06:58:24 AM »
Thanks Barb. I knew the Ravens had to be a portend of things nasty to come, but I didn't know the color symbolism. It makes sense that the "house" which a knight represents would use a color symbol to announce from afar what the house stands for or how they think of themselves, especially when it comes to rallying the troops or intimidating the enemy. The tradition continues to this day with patches, badges, standards and flags, etc.

Okay by me if we take a break. I am actually getting more out of researching things Welsh and Celtic than I am out of the stories. And, I think I saw somewhere that Beowulf probably came out of the same story telling tradition that the King Arthur stories did, and in nearly the same time period. Archaeological evidence supporting elements of the Beowulf saga go back to the 6th century. The significance of cauldrons to the Celts is of especial interest. Now I wonder if that has a much longer tradition/history. I remember cauldrons being featured in various ancient Greek poems and plays. Something else to research.

When I was young I couldn't or didn't see all these connections. It wasn't until James Burke's Connections series that I really started noticing that everything is connected in some way or another, even if it is obscure.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #189 on: December 02, 2019, 12:27:07 PM »
Yes I agree frybabe, the research seems to be more valuable and interesting - the chapter stories do point us into new directions and includes bits to look into - and so we do this week Pwyll Prince of Dyved then take our break... wonderful.

Interesting I never thought of it that we still keep the color and symbolism going with patches and the like - I guess medals for bravery and all the ribbons on a soldier's uniform - business seems to do recognition with designed shapes more than color but that too often enters the design - I Realize now my son-in-law chose yellow and black for his logo - oh dear - Black is not exactly the best color symbolism and yet, used often for business logos - now the Heraldic: Prudence; wisdom works well - and then football and baseball teams have their colors
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marmieone

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #190 on: December 02, 2019, 03:29:37 PM »
Hello - I think I took on more than I could manage.  I really enjoy reading this book and looking at all the postings. I just can't manage it all right now. Thanks for being such a welcoming group. I hope to catch up with all of you on another book at a later time.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #191 on: December 02, 2019, 04:45:40 PM »
That's okay, Marmieone. I take it you are taking a Latin class. It took up a lot of my time too. Stick with it though, it gets more interesting as you progress. I particularly liked translating Caesar and Pliny.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #192 on: December 02, 2019, 05:41:10 PM »
Marmieone you are not alone - we are all feeling a bit overwhelmed - we will be picking up after the holidays - you may want to peek in then - we are doing this chapter on Pwyll Prince of Dyved and since each chapter is an individual story to miss it does not affect the future reading -

Since Fybabe and myself are interested in far more than the story we will continue to post our research but the actual book we pick up again on January 6 - if you can why not catch up with us then - if you are not able to continue then you did what you were able and the discussion is always here to just read what we are sharing -

Glad you kept up with us... hope you enjoyed your reading so far and good luck with Latin - I keep thinking I will join but had 4 years of Latin back in High School when that was a requirement along with 3 years of another language which for me was French - and so the excitement of doing something new is not there, plus Roman History was not my favorite - I was always more fascinated with their Germanic enemies ;) .
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #193 on: December 03, 2019, 07:02:48 AM »
Interesting start to the tale, what with the white dogs with red ears and the owner riding a white horse and wearing a grey robe. Reminded me of a wizard, which was kind of confirmed when the offending hunter agreed to exchange bodies and territory for a year. A lesson to be learned here, I think.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #194 on: December 03, 2019, 02:23:57 PM »
Reminded me right off of that children's story where the two boys change places - for the life of me I cannot remember the name of the story - a classic...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #195 on: December 03, 2019, 04:22:08 PM »
The Prince and the Pauper. Forgot about that. Never read it.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #196 on: December 04, 2019, 01:37:01 AM »
this time of year and my heart turns to music - found a great youtube with Christmas Gregorian chant...

During the time of Arthur, music was still monophonic also known as plainsong - one voice carrying the tune with a background that sorta harmonized by was more like a drone backing - if you play something like a Dulcimer or better yet, most have heard bag pipes - there is a drone sound behind the tune- that sound, using voices can be quite lovely as they are in the Gregorian Christmas youtube music.

It was not until the 10th century, about the time the first of the Arthur stories were committed to paper that polyphonic music was developed - that is where two or later more voices harmonized with each other - at first two voices duplicated the tune an octave apart and then there was harmony with the drone chorus still present.

As to the often heard expression Gregorian chant is simply all the music that Pope Gregory approved became Gregorian Chant - there are other groups of Chants example Ambrosian, Mozarabic, the Carthusian Chant - before the Vatican II changes, there were 52 rites and each had their music that had its origination in monophonic sounds.

This is really lovely - Christmas Gregorian Medieval Christmas music in plainsong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuvWMNXn6vI

Here is a short 2 minutes Christmas time Mozarabic chant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg6g8rpAu04

6 minutes an Old Roman Christmas time chant from the 6th century
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Ez91zGm4Y

OK here we go... an opportunity to hear the difference as the Carthusian monks sing one of the medieval chants, Salve Regina followed by the Gregorian version and ah just found the Templar Knights version - This has been sung since the 12th and 13th century and so a bit later after polyphonic music was chanted but, Salve Regina is chanted in plainsong or monophonic

You gotta put up with an Ad first...Carthusian monks chant Salve Regina
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiSqIg4Hxn8

Hear the difference... the Gregorian, Salve Regina
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLMeHBkLQJo

And here is the Templar knights version of Salve Regina (rah rah no ad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uj8h4SCsnE

 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #197 on: December 04, 2019, 06:11:01 AM »
Wonderful, Barb.

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #198 on: December 04, 2019, 01:11:53 PM »
Barb I copied your selections over onto the Classical Corner discussion group in our sister site, Seniors and Friends without the explanations. Some of the gang over there have not registered here or have trouble doing so.

I especially liked the Salve Regina comparisons. It is one of my favorites. If memory serves correctly, we translated Salve Regina in one of the Latin classes a year or so ago.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #199 on: December 04, 2019, 01:33:57 PM »
Glad you enjoyed the selections - this is one of my favorite listening music - probably since it is close to the early Ballads that come directly from this early history of music - do not play my dulcimer as I did but the sound and use of the voice seems more perfect singing, playing and hearing it in a wooded area rather than here in these wide open spaces.

Winter with the dark closing in early and keeping the lights low in the house works for me as I imagine myself back in Kentucky. One of my favorite's this time of year is the John Jacob Niles, I Wonder as I Wander out Under the Sky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRMSmaA-1-I
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe