-
Talking Heads #9
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A two week forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online: bring your ideas and let's discuss.
Our Ninth Selection is: A Duty to Die
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/tomb7.jpg)
Is this what we've come to now?
Don't miss this very provocative article titled Higher Ed Can Lead to Lower Values in the Columbus Dispatch on May 14, 2010,
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/editorials/stories/2010/05/14/higher-ed-can-lead-to-lower-values.html
and let's talk about some of these issues, because there's a LOT here he covers, including escalating solutions for the elder generation, education, the virtues of poverty and a lot more!
Let's discuss!.
-
I guess of all the topics we've covered, this is probably the most controversial.
And this article hits all the buttons: education, the value of poverty and the lack of education, and what we heard in the arguments about health care reform early on: stay healthy or die.
Probably one of the most provocative articles ever written, what's YOUR take on it?
The floor is now open for your opinions!
-
My family recently suffered a medical emergency when my sister's nose started hemorrhaging and she was unable to stop the bleeding. On the way to the ER the EMTs found no BP and no pulse due to the rapid loss of blood. She said that she was prepared to die, it would be just a very long nap to her. She has survived but it was quite a scare. She and I were discussing the potential effect that the age of the patient may have on the medical care provided. She is 73 and I am 75. As I told her, it isn't if it's when.
-
YEs, an interesting article! It WOULD BE better for society if all people - let's say - at the age of 75 just died. Easier on Medicare, doctors, families, etc. There would be money in Social Security for those just getting to the age.
How to accomplish this?? Hahahaaaa
Throw Grandma from the train, comes to mind.
I know, when the "talking heads" on TV were discussing the health care bill that has now passed into law, they hinted there was language in it that perceived the elderly as excess baggage and prohibited care for them.
Did the rest of you hear any talk like that?
Has Congress read the entire Healthcare bill yet? I understand it is pages and pages long!
It's probably hidden in there someplace, but I do believe there is a difference in doctor's attitudes since the bill was passed.
-
Good topic.
Ella, we all heard the talk about the so-called "death panels", which never existed and were never proposed. Anyhow, I'll be reading the article, and coming back in to talk.
-
I'd like to think that limited medical resources would prioritize aiding the young over the old. I have lived my "three score and ten" and, while I'm not lining up to suicide as I read in a SF story once, I'm also ready to trade in this body for a new one as in John Scalzi's series which begins with Old Man's War whose premise is that, at 75, one trades in one's old body for a new one, 20-something, colored green, with enhanced senses and physical attributes, then serves in the space army defending earth from aliens. Maybe this attitude which allows me to think of the mass rather than the me, is a result of higher education. While writing this I pausedto watch the launch of the Atlantis space shuttle on it last mission and I pondered what would be the state of technology if we lived under a libertarian regime instead of a democratic one.
-
My gosh, Jackie! How glad you must be that your sister is still alive and kickin'! Well, I would say that the EMT's tried to relieve her fear at that time, in the only way they knew to do so.
When I read the column, I immediately thought of Chief Dan George, in "Little Big Man", as he walks out of his village telling Dustin Hoffman, his grandson, that its a good day to die. That tribe also believed that the elderly had a choice as to when they wanted to die. Then he starts talking about his wife and he thinks maybe they have some good days left in their life together so he starts walking back to the village.
-
What great comments here!
Maybe this attitude which allows me to think of the mass rather than the me, is a result of higher education.
I think what struck me the most about the article was actually the idea that those with more education have somehow lost any values, and those who are poor and without education are somehow more superior in terms of knowing what's right.
I am not sure that these issues have anything to do with a "duty to die."
I found it quite strange reasoning, but it's reasoning (no fool like an educated fool) that a lot of people make.
I thought that part of the argument was specious.
-
Ginny: "Ignorance is bliss?"
-
What struck me more was the thought that we put a price on people's lives. Wow.
-
Marking a spot. I read the article but have no thoughts or comments...yet!
-
My first thoughts when I saw that article when catching up on Library posts -- consider the source. And second thoughts were -- shades of Clarence Thomas and Rush Limbaugh. And lo and behold, they're all part of a mutual admiration society. Thomas Sowell is one of the most ultra-conservative journalists around and I for one take anything he says with a grain of salt.
His comments below are just more of the same "death-panel" scare techniques that have been batted around for the past several months.
Already the government-run medical system in Britain is restricting what medications or treatments it will authorize for the elderly. Moreover, it seems almost certain [Why do you say that] that similar attempts to contain runaway costs will lead to similar policies when American medical care is taken over by the government.
Much of what is taught in our schools and colleges today seeks to break down traditional values and replace them with more fancy and fashionable notions, of which "a duty to die" is just one.
Your proof, Mr. Sowell? What are the facts?
People like him scare the heck out of me because they make these positive sounding statements without having anything to back them up.
-
Whew.. Shades of Rush and Clarence. What a conservative human and what a cynical one.. Aunt Nance Ann my foot.. He is talking about a common thing before medicare.. Families and friends took in the needy and they all tried together to struggle to get along. Nothing to do with education or money,, just the once connected life we led.
At 72, I am healthy enough.. I still look forward to my grandchildrens growth and my childrens lives.. I am interested in a lot of things.. But and this is a big but, just recently I have had two conversations with friends, who insisted that certain things were not done medically because of their ages.. Both are in their 80's.. I was indignant, but then when I thought of it.. A heart transplant at 82.. Hmm.. I would think that transplants should end at some point.. Who knows.
-
Steph
Since I have a lot of heart care stories because of Ralph's heart problems, I think I know it all. :D But, I do know that Medicare will not pay for a heart transplant in anyone over 70 or 72 and its been that way for the last 10 yrs. Even the heart pump that Ralph has is not put in everyone. At first they were installing it for patients who were awaiting a heart transplant. Ralph was in a study for deciding if the pump was appropriate for older patients who couldn't get a transplant. And it was approved last fall. He was 75 when it was implanted and he feels like a kid most of the time. He says with ObamaCare, he probably wouldn't have gotten one. Too expensive.
-
OBAMACARE! Haven't heard that, Ann!
But like Ginny I was startled at Sowell's idea that those higher-educated (the elites) men/women are the ones that are attempting to downsize Medicare and Medicaid.
None of you believe this?
-
I certainly don't believe that.
-
The only thing medicare ever turned down on the accident was the stupid ambulance service.. They billed for an ambulance..( we were helopcoptered) instead of the advanced life support for my husband ( which they did). I ended up paying them personally, but I am still annoyed at the office staff there for not billing for the correct item.
-
I think this article, written by an apparently intelligent man in an intelligent manner points to what's wrong in a lot of our current thinking in this country and maybe in others, I don't know.
We have facts and then we have Aunt Nance Ann or whatever her name is. We have two different sets of time and we have this or that person who has advanced the theory that without the elderly things would be better for the young workers.
That alone begs credulity. I mean there are so many leaps of reasoning here, and conclusions made going from A to Z without looking at D or E.
It's those over 55 who have paid in the most of the social security for the longest period of time, and if the current demographics are right, made the most money, what happened to it? Fraud, bad investments, I don't know, but it's running out. The dangerous (in my opinion) shift of blame to those who actually dare to live past 50 is monstrous, when the blame belongs on those who failed to administer it properly.
And then because this or that person, of whatever education, has made some asinine statement, for the writer here to leap to the conclusion again specious reasoning, that ALL educated people (and who would THEY BE? What degree of education makes you fall into this area?) ascribe to this theory is just....at best, specious reasoning. At worst it's dangerous.
We know Rush Limbaugh, cited as an admirer, is singularly lacking in education, as his own father asked once at the dinner table "where does he GET this stuff?" But to lump ALL people with more than a GED, say, into this category and then say all educated people have lost touch with the values that matter and throw in the emotional Aunt Nance Ann, of a bygone era and time when most of us, (gasp, even the educated) found themselves caring for extended family is just outrageous.
He's entitled to his opinions and his points, but his reasoning is repulsive. It's this type of rabble rousing thing (to his defense, he's not advocating the "duty to die,") but his bringing up this obnoxious reasoning is just the exact type of thing that is about as helpful as a soccer riot. And makes about as much sense.
Too many talking heads. Have you noticed CNN lately? Call in with YOUR opinions. Facebook, Twitter,blogs, YOUR opinions, What happened to the news? YOUR chance in the sun, YOUR thoughts, whether or not they make sense or are even coherent, YOUR chance to be heard. YOU engaging with this "radio or tv personality." It's all about YOU.
The radio rants, call in, Long Time Listener, First Time Caller. BS on the air. But this is nothing new. Years ago there was a, was it Father Divine, not sure that's the right person, on the radio who ranted and blasted and of course there were the McCarthy hearings.
The percentage of college graduates in 2010 is quite a bit higher than it was in the days of Aunt Nance Ann, (whenever those were, I assume it was in the author's childhood and he's not a young man by his photograph). Ah the good old days. Everything and everybody was so pure. Till you read the newspapers of the time, such depravity among some of our pure citizens, it makes you blanch. And I'm talking about all the way back to the 1800's, surely before Aunt Nance's time, when most of the country lacked this college degree (or whatever the criterion is here).
The world is a different place. Is it because people went to college? I thought that the current state of unemployment, particularly of unskilled jobs, had led to more domestic abuse, more child abuse, among those with less education and resources than ever before. We must be reading different statistics. Even tho domestic abuse can happen at any level, I believe the statistics will bear me out on this one. So it would appear that the "poor" (or was it those with a lack of higher education, what a swamp this reasoning is), are not upholders of virtue after all.
But it's good enough for Rush and Ilk to milk for a talk show for a week or two). How on earth that man with his own addictions could rant and rave about addicted people is beyond me.
Things like this, this type of "play to the emotions, things were better, people cared, it's all the fault of the educated fool," thing, just drive me WILD and it's a lot more prevalent than people think. And I do think it's dangerous, hopefully somebody out there can think for themselves.
-
Ginny - AMEN and AMEN!
There are plenty of people "out there" who feel the same way but, IMO, we are completely overrun and overshadowed by the Ranters and Ravers - so our voices are seldom heard. And, if they are, there might be one positive response allowed - but it will edited (if written) or interrupted (if spoken) so that responses touting the R & R viewpoints will overshadow the disagreements.
A long time ago, I became very concerned about the age group who would be in charge as I reached my elder years. Well - now they are and I have...and my concerns have not been soothed.
There is a reason why that age group is called "The ME generation".
-
OMT :)
I wonder how Aunt Nance Ann felt about her situation? Was she consulted? Were there options other than having her move in with relatives? If so, were these considered?
Did she actually have a place in the family routine or was she simply expected to be as unobtrusive as possible?
Is it different today - from the Elder perspective?
-
We live in a world complex beyond any imaginings of our forefathers and mothers. Connections between stimuli and results are obscured by the multiplicity of variables, especially as they relate to we humans, leaving us feeling impotent and of little value in making our lives' decisions. So, when someone comes along and tells us that all this is happening because people are living too long, and we see in the obituary pages of our newspapers (if we read newspapers) that so many are aged in their 80s, it must be true. Surely Social Security was not designed for people to live so 20 years after retirement. I remember hearing as a young woman that men should plan their retirements so that they would have interests and activities which would occupy them and keep them from bothering their wives who were running the household very well, thank you, and didn't need their advice or assistance. Else the men would die within two (2) years of retirement. Hard to believe that the world for people of our generation has changed so much in our lifetimes. Oh the appeal of the simple answer, especially when it includes a target to blame. The rantings of Father Coughlin ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin) were so extreme that eventually he was silenced by the Archdiocese but his audiences were reckoned to be in excess of 30 million. Who'd a thought we would be seeing a virtual network of hate mongers 70+ years later.
-
When you think about it.. Wonder what this man and Rush and Glen Beck plan on doing as they get older.. or are they old enough already>> People are amazing.. I suspect they would assume that they are the exceptions. Age has so little to do with how people are and how they react to life..
-
What wonderful thoughtful posts here, I agree with all of them.
Callie: so true:
so our voices are seldom heard. And, if they are, there might be one positive response allowed - but it will edited (if written) or interrupted (if spoken) so that responses touting the R & R viewpoints will overshadow the disagreements.
THAT says it all.
What IS it, does anybody know, that's so appealing about the Ranters and Ravers? I have noticed on CNN the proliferation suddenly of ranters about crime or outrage. Nancy Grace. We all know that heinous crimes are heinous, but why do we need to glory in every detail? Stephen King has said some awful things about "Nancy Grace," apparently she caused thru her badgering, and ranting the suicide of a suspected murderer or something. Issues with Jane Velez Mitchell, have you seen THAT thing? A panel of 6 ranting heads, ...there is no...calmness, it's all Media Media Media, gasp, breathlessness look at this awful thing, too awful to talk about, let's give it prime time and talk for hours on every detail, and, Caller, YOU call in, we need your "opinions."
(Caller: Why, I just think it's awful!) There you have it, Listeners, let us tell you how awful it is. On the night of the 10th.....
And this from Callie, so true again from those who remember this type of situation or are living it now:
I wonder how Aunt Nance Ann felt about her situation? Was she consulted? Were there options other than having her move in with relatives? If so, were these considered?
Did she actually have a place in the family routine or was she simply expected to be as unobtrusive as possible?
Is it different today - from the Elder perspective?
That's an incredible point. I think it is. I think the Elder Perspective now is completely different. What do you all think and what do you think has happened to make it so? Is 70 the new 50? If so how did that happen?
_______________________
Mrs.Sherlock, that's a beautiful post.
Connections between stimuli and results are obscured by the multiplicity of variables, especially as they relate to we humans, leaving us feeling impotent and of little value in making our lives' decisions. So, when someone comes along and tells us that all this is happening because people are living too long, and we see in the obituary pages of our newspapers (if we read newspapers) that so many are aged in their 80s, it must be true.
Yes. Where IS our voice? Who speaks for us? Who listens when we do speak?
The rantings of Father Coughlin ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin)
YES! That's him, Father Divine did not have a radio program, good for you, Jackie, I could not remember the name. But I do remember having heard him.
We have our local equivalent of Rush Limbaugh and Don Imus in the local talk shows here. There are two hosts, male and female, and they take turns playing bad cop good cop, the woman is usually the "righteous cop," they are always both outraged at something, but they are anything but righteous, it's a miracle they have not been sued, character assassination, the same breathless hypocritical righteousness. Where is all this anger coming from?
And you can find these people easily by just turning the radio dial in your car. They all have the same outraged voices. Thank goodness most of them are confined to the radio (possibly because in person they are so singularly unattractive, I mean LOOK at Don Imus who now has a TV show [mistake] and Rush Limbaugh). And I don't think the majority of people listen to radio in their homes. Ditto heads. Long time Listener, First time Caller, my foot.
Do people feel that helpless and disembodied today, and if so why?
Could this be the true origin of the "Tea Party," and what exactly, can somebody tell me, IS the Tea Party? There's a new interview with Willie Nelson in, I think , the new Time magazine and they ask him about it. I guess they figure Heartland Willie will really be on board. His answer was he doesn't know what they stand for who they are (paraphrasing here) or what they want, so he has no knowledge of it. I don't either. What or who are they? Who do they speak for? Is this a Sarah Palin ("how's that hopey changey thing working out for you?") vehicle for the next presidential elections?
Do we really feel so little empowered that we need the Tea Party?
-
Stephanie: I suspect they would assume that they are the exceptions.
Everybody does, that's the irony of life. Everybody is an exception (and they are). Maybe that's the rationale behind the hate mongers. I have never seen Glen Beck but I've heard enough about him to avoid him. What's his shtick? What's his particular hobby horse he rides in on? I've heard Limbaugh.
-
From Pedln
My first thoughts when I saw that article when catching up on Library posts -- consider the source. And second thoughts were -- shades of Clarence Thomas and Rush Limbaugh. And lo and behold, they're all part of a mutual admiration society. Thomas Sowell is one of the most ultra-conservative journalists around and I for one take anything he says with a grain of salt.
His comments below are just more of the same "death-panel" scare techniques that have been batted around for the past several months.
I sure agree
I've been away since the 13th getting a repair to an artery, and missed this opening. I live alone, am independent, financially and physically, and with the stent the Dr. put in, I'm good for a bit longer, and will quit falling down.
I'm facing death, but we all are--- I just not ready. I have too much to do. My HMO is getting "chintzier" all the time about paying for my Dr. I have read what I can about the new Health Care law, but don't have a clue how it will affect me.
But with others, a nursing home or assisted living is the answer and that is costly both for the person and medicare. When I get to that stage and I hope I know what is going on and the quality of my mind is good.
*Quote from Ginny that I copied many years ago, and is pinned to the top of my bulletin board:
*By, gum,when you come to the end of your days,
*if your genes held out and you are alive in your 90's and your luck held out and you are in your right mind,
*there better BE something of quality and substance IN that mind or it's not worth the journey.
*That is my opinion. ...... Ginny Quote
-
Pat, thanks for putting in that Ginny-quote. I love it. I had an uncle who lived to 102, mind intact. He didn't look it, but mainly I don't think he ever thought of himself as old. When he was 90 he put up earnest money on a retirement condo that would be finished for 18 months. (I thought that was a real act of faith, but my aunt - his sister -- did the same and she was in her late 80's.) So, when he was 92 he and his wife DROVE from DC (he'd worked at the SEC from Joseph Kennedy days until he retired) to settle into "the rest of his life" in Wisconsin.
Sometime in his 90's the doctors wanted to perform surgery on his carotid artery. But a grand-nephew, also a doctor, said, "Don't let them do it. It'll kill him." So he didn't and stayed around to celebrate more birthdays.
-
Pedln: What an inspiration. ;)
-
When my Aunt Esther was 90, she had two problems: Her new girdle was too tight and she couldn't decide where to plant the petunias.
I don't think 70+ is the "new" anything!!!!! I think these Baby Boomers just want it to be so.
(Loved a recent cartoon in which a woman standing on a scale said, "I just read somewhere that 160 pounds is the new 135". Now THAT, I can relate to! :D)
I also saw a recent t v clip about a local orthopedist who has developed some kind of new hip joint replacement. The thrust of the story was that Baby Boomers who are developing joint problems can "simply" have surgery - and be "good as new".
I guess this joins Botox and facelifts as aging "solutions". ::)
-
I think that Seniorlearn proves over and over that the older generation are thinkers and doers. The baby boomers tend to be whiners and do over types.. Oh well. We have fun, use our brains and learn new languages.. They could take a few lessons from us. I know my sons feel that they hope to learn as they age to enjoy life and travel as much as their Dad and I did.
-
Callie
Those hip replacements won't be so easy to get when Obamacare kicks in. I would suspect that age will have a great deal to with whether you can have it.
-
Those hip replacements won't be so easy to get when Obamacare kicks in.
Well, I'm from Missouri and you know what they say about us -- SHOW ME!
I'm not sure I agree with that. I'd have to hear someone say, "Well, the doctor told me I was too old. I have to endure a life of pain instead."
-
Pedl'n.
One cannot get a heart transplant after age 70 or 72 and that's been true for the last 15 years. I believe Canada and England have some of these refusals already recorded but I will go 'google' that and let you know!
-
Remember back when kidney transplants were first attempted? There weren't very many available and they went to those who had the best chance of survival. I remember a magazine article that interviewed a man who had been refused one because he was diabetic. I have no idea whether that would be true today or not.
Regarding the heart transplants, and other organ transplants, is it strictly a matter of age, or does availability and chance of survival figure in? If there was one organ available and a pool of 5 patients of varying health who needed it, should it go to the sickest or the one who had the best chance of survival?
-
Frankly, at my age (74), even though I think I have many good years left, if my organs were diseased enough that I needed an organ transplant, I think I would much rather have the organ go to a younger person, perhaps with dependent children, etc., who had a longer life ahead. It would be a no-brainer for me. And my living will (and instructions to John and children) is very specific about the "no heroic measures" stuff. Of course, this is MY choice.
-
Pedl'n,
Well, I 'googled' about transplants for the elderly and up came a plethora of sites. Just read this list of links to how well the elderly are receiving transplants even stem cells! Amazing!!
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=transplants+for+elderly%3F&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=transplants+for+elderly%3F&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
Do read about the drs using less than perfect transplants for the elderly and better organs for the young. Very interesting. I know that they were doing this with heart transplants back about 10 yrs ago but it wasn't working very well.
Mary,
Both my husband and I have final wishes spelled out but these stories might make one think about a transplant.
We just want to have quality and dignity to our life's end.
Yesterday my 76 yr old husband had an abdominal aortic aneurysm repair, using a wall graft/stent, and although they were fairly sure that he would not need the usual big surgery for this procedure, they prepared him as though that was what was going to happen. Heart/lung machine was present plus blood for transfusion and they put him out with regular anesthetic. Thanks to lots good thoughts and prayers and a terrific surgeon (a lady doctor with much talent and experience) he made it through. :) :)
If one were a true cynic about these things, one would wonder if we are being used as the lab rats.
-
Adoannie - wonderful news about your husband's successful surgery.
Many of us are living longer and better lives with all the new technology - but it does come with a price.
-
Annie: Great news about your husband's surgery. i have been reading novels co-written by William Bass, head of U Tenn's famous Body Farm and have been musing about donating my body for that kind of research. It feels like I would be doing something noble. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_farm
-
Jackie,
Did you join us about 2 yrs ago when we discussed no longer fowling our nest but do everything as natural as possible---like your burial??? Here's a link about to links about eco burials:
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=eco+burial+pods&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
The Body Farm sounds like a good idea and I noticed that there are others in US.
-
Donating one's body to science -- a university med school is what my family has done.
My mother gave hers to U of IL Med School in Chicago in '86;
My mother-in-law gave her body to U of IA Med School in Iowa City in '88;
My husband donated his body to the U of IA in '03;
And I carry a card that on my death, my body will go to the U of IA.
Several members of our church have donated their bodies following the decision of my mother-in-law
The ashes are returned to the family after about 18 to 24 months.
There is also a Memorial service to attend at the med school.
Arrangements are made prior to death with a funeral home, who will be alerted to transport the body as soon as possible.
(Saves the cost of an expensive casket.)
-
Pat: An expensive casket is what I'm striving to eliminate.
-
Talking Heads #9
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A two week forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online: bring your ideas and let's discuss.
Our Ninth Selection is: A Duty to Die
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/tomb7.jpg)
Is this what we've come to now?
Don't miss this very provocative article titled Higher Ed Can Lead to Lower Values in the Columbus Dispatch on May 14, 2010,
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/editorials/stories/2010/05/14/higher-ed-can-lead-to-lower-values.html
and let's talk about some of these issues, because there's a LOT here he covers, including escalating solutions for the elder generation, education, the virtues of poverty and a lot more!
Let's discuss!.
There are several things that can be eliminated after death. One is the casket, the other is the chemicals they put in us (for display purposes). We can also eliminate all unnatural things by being buried in a cemetery that only buries untreated bodies. There are many things offered for natural burials, including wood caskets that will disintegrate in the ground, body pods for carrying the body to the cemetery, choices offered for burying ones body in the ocean where it will become part of a reef. All kinds of different ways to offer one's body to science.
I have a poem somewhere about these choices and have placed a copy of it in with my living will saying that this is what I want done with my remains.
-
My cousin has willed her body to U of Iowa Med School. When she said they wouldn't pay to have the body sent to the college, we told her we would let her hitchhike by putting her in a box with one arm sticking out holding a sign pointing to Iowa City.
-
Kidsal: Thanks for the chuckle!
-
Kidsal -- even so transporting the body to Iowa City is cheaper than a casket or cremation.
But you have a good idea, I'll pass it on to my daughter. She has suggested giving me a free ride to Iowa City in her horse trailer or the back of the pickup.
-
We opted for cremation. MDH is in my closet waiting for me to join him.. I know it is silly, but I do talk to his ashes.. Helps me cope on some days. Went with my older son and wife to Biloxi for a few days gambling and getting away.. Had a wonderful time, but each time I return from being away, I cry because he is no longer there to tell of my adventure.. Life does get complicated.
-
Steph -- You're doing the right things. Crying really helps.
-
I know I have a Terry Prachett in my TBR pile.. I need funny... out loud laughing kind of book.. So will dig it out..
-
I've been following this discussion off and on and the one thing I can't wrap my head around is the "importance" of the 70+ individual.
I'm no political economist but why isn't anyone speaking out in the NY Times or other paper about the blithe way society has about sending our young men and women out to war for many and any reasons, mostly $, land and power IMHO.
As I said before, I can't understand this subject although as I go a little further into my 70's I see the quality of my life dwindling.
Think I'll make up a list of people throughout the world who 'made a difference' living beyond the 'three score and ten' mark.
-
There have been and are many many people who after 70 have contributed to the world.. Some of my personal heroines did their best work after that age.. I am 72 and admit that in some ways I have slowed down, but I still mostly feel good, go to the gym, read.. walk and enjoy.. The accident has caused me to stop and think of my life, but I am valiantly trying to redo the way I have lived and forge on as a oner instead of a twoer.
-
I'd like to see a list of older achievers, to go along with our spectacular results by our own Latin students here in the April 2010 National Latin Exam. 4 perfect papers, in 3 of our cases, they were in the top 500 out of 138,000 test takers, in one case in the top 700 our of 13, 800.
14 first places, 12 gold medals, 1 silver, 1 Magna, and all from people definitely not teenagers. An incredible feat I hope to hear more about the last of June at the national American Classical League conference at Wake Forest University where the National Latin Exam will present "Results and Revelations on the 2010 National Latin Exam." I'll have my pencil ready.
You can do good work, spectacular work and learn anything at any age!!
These statements from the article are attempting but I'm not sure succeeding in making the point that affluence and education are the cause, perhaps the root of our caring less about the elderly.
I only began to hear that kind of talk decades later, from highly educated people in an affluent age, when even most families living below the official poverty level owned a car or truck and had air conditioning.
It is today, in an age when homes have flat-screen TVs and most families eat in restaurants regularly or have pizzas and other meals delivered to their homes, that the elites - rather than the masses - have begun talking about "a duty to die."
Back in the days of Aunt Nance Ann, nobody in our family had ever gone to college. Indeed, none had gone beyond elementary school. Apparently you need a lot of expensive education, sometimes including courses on ethics, before you can start talking about "a duty to die."
These efforts at changing values used to be called "values clarification," though the name has had to be changed repeatedly over the years, as more and more parents caught on to what was going on and objected. The values that supposedly needed "clarification" had been clear enough to last for generations, and nobody asked the schools and colleges for this "clarification."
Does he succeed in convincing us? Is he right? I'm certainly not a sociologist, but I would think there's nobody who knows the situation better than those who lived through it.
What DOES account for Aunt Nances of the world no longer spending time with each family member, or have they actually stopped doing that? I know families where that's still done, don't you?
Could Medicare and her own preference to be self sufficient have anything to do with it? What about our mobile society? In the time he writes of, with no electricity or indoor plumbing, few left home, (I may have to take that back, did you see American Experience last night? It was about the Great Depression and the hoboes and young men riding the rails who had to leave homes which could not support them)...eye oening...but if they could most people stayed close to home. When did that change? Today's society is on the move, up to the job opportunity and out. I wonder how close our author lives to the place he was born.
How many of you live within 10 miles of where you were born?
Why would Aunt Nance be moving about at all? There's something wrong here with the reasoning and I'm having a problem making the connections between education, and caring for anybody. When he had to make choices between his child and his own success, it was a "Harvard educated" person who advised (who IS this he's talking to at Harvard? Does graduating from Harvard mean you have become God in all areas of life? There are a lot of strange fallacies here in his reasoning, I think. I am not seeing the root of them however.
Pat, bless your heart I can't believe you kept that. I am sure I meant that IF you have a brain at the end, fill it up. I'm beginning to wonder about myself. haahaa.
-
Pat, bless your heart I can't believe you kept that. I am sure I meant that IF you have a brain at the end, fill it up.
Yes, I think that's the meaning I got from it. If you stop learning, you're mind goes dead.
-
I must confess that rereading the article makes him every sillier with each reread. He is making incredible conclusions based on very little data.. Not clear thinker for sure.
My Dad only went to the 8th grade in formal school. But he discovered the ICS early in life and spent his whole life taking classes by mail. He loved learning for its own self. I would have love to have talked to him about this article. He felt very strongly about his parents inability to understand their childrens need to learn. When I was a little girl, since my Dad was the oldest in the family, all of my aunts and uncles at one time or another lived with us.. They moved on with jobs and families.
I have never lived 10 miles from where I was born since marriage.. I remember where I grew up with much love, but it is far away in Delaware. Sometimes I wish it was closer..But my sons live in Southwest Florida and I know I wont beable to go far from them..
-
Gosh! What a wonderful response to such a controversial topic. I am a Newbie and this is my first post. I am Australian.
This topic reminded me of a difficult time in my life when I was an assistant nurse in a geriatric hospital. The patients there ran the gamut from 60 to 90. They were all "unwell" in some way or another. What I remember most was one patient who had had both of her feet cut off due to heel bedsores and a deep hole at the base of her spine. Her arms/elbows were literally wearing off. Her pain must have been excruciating. On one very rare occasion that she was not heavily drugged to combat the pain she whispered to me as I was changing her bed "Please kill me, dear". However, many of the other ladies whose physical condition was not serious also wanted to die. Our culture is probably to blame. Solution: I don't have one. As for me - my daughter is under very clear instructions for when I want her to "pull the plug".
-
Having just gone through a pull the plug situation , it is not as easy as it should be in the US. Even with a living will and testimony from the family, when my husband was in the coma and getting sicker and sicker, I still had to write a statement and sign it in the hospital. That is so terribly hard for the survivor.. You agonize no matter what.. The worst single day of my life was November 20..
-
{{{{{{{Steph}}}}}}
I can't begin to imagine what you went through, Steph. But, John and I have made ourselves very clear verbally and in our living wills as to our wishes. And can only hope "the system" will let that happen when the time comes.
-
I have a friend who grew up during the Great Depression and she spoke of her parents taking in relatives who had lost their jobs.
When I was a child in the '40's, my parents rented rooms to boarders who couldn't find a house to rent let alone buy. My husband along with his mother and two siblings lived with his grandparents in Toledo, OH while his father, at a new job in Indianapolis, searched for a place to house his small family. It took a year or longer to find something appropiate.
-
My parents lived with her parents during WWII.. My Dad worked in the shipyard with my grandfather. He was 4-f.. due to losing sight in one eye.. I think that our generation has a lot of several generations in one house. My mil had her Mother with her during most of her marriage. Not money,, just because..
-
I have often read the syndicated columns of Dr. Sowell - I believe he has a Ph
D. like a lot of educated elite= and this one is right in line with his ultra conservative beliefs. I also believe he is sincere, and not trying to rabble-rouse like the talk show hosts. But his oppostition to the Health Care Reform Bill comes across as stornger than his convictin that educated elites are prescribing death as a corredrive for our Medicare problems!
I read recently that there is a school of thought on the epidemic of obesity: don't treat it. Let them die from diabites, or heart disease , as soon as possible and save the " system" money. Same with the smokers. They are actually doing us a favor. How about that for a cynical take on health problems.
No one has a duty to die, but a patient has the right to decline further treatment. My neighbor did , with a recurrence of her cancer and spent her last months at home with hospice care. But it was her decision.
I'm going to raise this question with my kids and hope they will give me an honest answer.
Who are the corporate sponsors for the talk show ranters? I can always boycott them, just tell me who they are.
-
I like the idea of boycotting the talk show ranters.. Must look into who sponsors them..
-
No problem boycotting talk shows as I just don't like them. Even the news shows. They are all rabble rousers and only interested in themselves and money.
My mom died in 1995 at age 83 and she had said many times in the previous months that she was ready to go. Held my hand and uttered those words. She had a long unusual life and was just ready to leave this planet for a better place which she strongly believed was truly waiting for her.
-
Let me be clear about the obesity epidemic. those in favor of aggressive action to stem it point out that obese people are so prone to serious illness, costing the health care system a lot of money. Others say, "but they die much earlier, thus saving money for the system." No one can put a number on this - yet.
I don't want to out-Rush Rush in exagerration.
What Sowell is saying , I think, is that the value of human life has always influenced our laws and social policies. He believes that we got that way of thinking from religious beliefs, passed down from one generation to another. But now, with the decline of traditional religion, perhaps the intrinsic value of human life no longer is part of our thinking.
But secular humanists and even atheists also , in many cases, revere life as much as those grounded in God-centered beliefs. Just as scientists believe that humans are hard-wired for speech and communication, we are wired to value llife and its preservation. What do you think?
Does the belief in an afterlife , or loss of that belier , alter our thinking about the value of human life?
That story of the terribly ill old woman who longed to die really moved me. I am sure many people express that wish. Should they be allowed to fulfill it? With doctor assistance? Is that making "quality of life" the overriding value rather than life itself?
-
duty to die? no but willingness is something else again. every morning my body treats me like an unwelcome visitor, literally hates me and I have to remember that with advanced aging this just goes with the territory, the arthric old bones and spasemed muscles which let up later in the day. but at the time I'd just as soon not be visiting.
-
What about young people who become serioulsy ill and need expensive care?
Surely nobody thinks they have a duty to die. Doesn't 'duty" mean the conscious sense of oblgation? Or is duty imposed by someone else?
-
Interesting thought. Noone has a duty to die. I know my Mother had colon cancer, but at the end, she would whisper... let me go.. and we tried very hard to reassure her that we would..
-
I think Thomas Sowell in his article was not saying that people have a duty to die; quite the contrary, he is saying that that is a notion that highly educated people propowe. "Higher Ed leads to Lower Values" seems to omply that the more edcuated you are, the lower your moral values. That is really generalizing. Does he want people to stay ignorant and never question anything that they have been taught? this seems to go along with a general distrust of intellectuals in government. I remember how the Best and the Brightest brought u;s Viet Nam. Bur I wonder if electing less educated peole to positions of responsibility would be a good solution.
-
Aliki, the New YOrk Times columnist Bob Herbert has indeed summed up the futility and tragedy of the Afghan war in an article today.
The Courage to Leave. . I don't know how to forward an URL but I googled new York Times on line and got to read it there.
-
Why oh why does our nation think they should solve the worlds problems by interfering with foreign governments. We have been in way too many areas that all we did was mess up the place further. Our secret agents seem to unfailingly pick the wrong guy to back.. Maybve something wrong with our diplomatic corp and how they pick their help??
-
Those who have raised questions about the allocation of medical care and how it might affect the elderly (death panels?) might be interested in reading the following article that appeared in the prestigious medical journal, The Lancet. One of the authors, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, is a health care advisor to President Obama. I believe it was this article, and Dr. Emanuel's influence with the president, that gave rise to much of the concern that medical care under the national health care act could be denied a person based simply on age. Copied below is a summary of the article as presented on The Lancet website.
The full article is availabe for free (but you do need to register) at: http://www.thelancet.com/ (http://www.thelancet.com/)
"Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions"
Govind Persad BS, Alan Wertheimer PhD, Ezekiel J Emanuel MD
The Lancet, Volume 373, Issue 9661, Pages 423 - 431, 31 January 2009
Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.
-
Would Dr Emanuel be related to Rob Emanuel by any chance?? Thank goodness my husband got his heart pump before we went to socialized medicine. This sounds like Nazi Germany in WWII!
-
Would Dr Emanuel be related to Rob Emanuel by any chance??
Yes, Rahm and Ezekiel are brothers.
Along this same line, the article by Thomas Sowell referred to the restriction of some medications and treatments for the elderly in Great Britain; a statement which some posters here seemed to question. We have just returned from two weeks in Scotland and England, where we read the newspapers every day. Articles appeared frequently about this very subject, with specific cases noted where treatment is being denied based on one's age.
-
Like it or not.. there are certain medical things that are scarce and probably always will be.. I am 72 and I truly believe that if the choice was between me and a woman in her child bearing years with her life in front of her,, she should get the medical intervention,,not me..
-
Like it or not.. there are certain medical things that are scarce and probably always will be..
But why should this be acceptable? In all the debate surrounding the health care act, and in the act itself, I recall nothing about establishing a policy that would encourage the expansion of medical research and production of equipment or pharmaceuticals, medical degree programs, or that would provide incentives for the medical industry to meet the medical needs of all. Instead, there seems to be an obsessive fear that the large corporations and physicians might actually become wealthy in the process of doing business, so the government's response is to pile on taxes and burdensome regulations.
I am 72 and I truly believe that if the choice was between me and a woman in her child bearing years with her life in front of her,, she should get the medical intervention,,not me..
I believe Thomas Sowell's article speaks directly to this. Barack Obama is a well educated man. When asked by a senior citizen at one of the health care town halls about whether medical procedures could be denied because of age, his response was that perhaps the senior should take a pill and forget the surgery. I think we can presume that Dr. Emanuel and his colleagues who authored The Lancet article are highly educated people. In that article they propose a policy that would give medical preference to my twenty-two year old grandchild over your two year old grandchild; and the seventy-two, eighty-two or ninety-two does not even fit into the equation. In other words, "old people have a duty to die" -- and perhaps even a seriously ill child?
Why are these approaches acceptable? Why are the people of this nation -- which led the world for generations in industrial output, which put a man on the moon -- so willing to accept the proposition that medical resources are limited and "probably always will be"?
-
I guess it depends on the medical resource. I was actually thinkin of replacement hearts, livers, etc. I know several people who have gotten new hearts and new lungs..Both of which are hard to get.. The people were in their late 60's and not in good health besides the problems. Seems unfair to me that they got the hearts and lungs instead of younger people who might live longer.
As far as medical resources of other types.. it all depends.. I have several doctor friends who would tell you that certain medical procedures are so hard to tolerate that most older people could not.. No idea how true that is..But I still stand by my feeling that I should not be first in line for certain types of procedures. Not all, mind you.. but some.
-
I have several doctor friends who would tell you that certain medical procedures are so hard to tolerate that most older people could not.. No idea how true that is..
I am sure that is true; but not performing a procedure because it would be detrimental to the health of the patient could apply at any age if the illness has sapped the body's ability to tolerate it. My point is that age alone should not be the determining factor.
But I still stand by my feeling that I should not be first in line for certain types of procedures. Not all, mind you.. but some.
And I respect your feeling; but that should be your decision, not the decision of the federal government. Again, my point is that that choice should not have to be made. It should not be an either or decision. If the powers that be were truly concerned about maximum health care for everyone, they would be looking at ways to expand medical research and development, manufacturing, education, bringing costs down. Instead, the focus is on cutting back, closing hospitals, denying coverage, limiting choices.
-
It seems we agree that no one has a duty to die. But the problem is that as a civilized society, we have a duty to use scarce resources wisely. Their has to be a baisis for assigning resources like donated organs. Until now, the basis has been money; sufficient insurance to cover the procedure.
The parmaceutical industy seems to be less dedicated to research and development of life-saving drugs than "lifestyle" drugs like Viagra; meds for indigestion, meds for restless legs, etc. Their plea is that only by marketing these drugs can they afford to do research on real cures. But they don't seem to be coming up with much, do they? the profit lies in developing meds for "lifetime" illnesses that are never cured, just treated. My particular gripe is the space program. I cannot stand it that I had to lose my dearest friend to ALS and we are going to put a man on Mars. The war, too, is consuming so much in resources that are needed. Janet is right in saying that the answer lies in developing more and better health care for everyone. But we will always be faced with allocation decisions, it seems, and must work it out based on our best knowledge and ethical concerns.
I am terrible on noting citations of articles, but I do remember one about a 92 year old, terminally ill patient being subjected to an incredible number of "tests
and "procedures, including, so Help me, a Pap smear.
My nurse daughter calls this game, "Pass the patient, please"
-
I agree on the patient at 92.. My mother in law lived until 98 and had severe dementia. Still the last months of life, we fended off doctors who wanted to implant a feeding tube,, do cataract surgery,,etc etc.. including as I remember a Pap smear and a mammo.. Hospice was a big help for us..
-
This is a long article, and I have not read it all, but it is so fitting for this discussion. A man in the beginning stages of dementia needed hernia surgery. The surgeon refused to do it unless the patient received a pacemaker. The patient’s primary care physician, who had known him for years, was not consulted.
What Broke My Father’s Heart (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/magazine/20pacemaker-t.html?ref=magazine)
Now I would look at him and think of Anton Chekhov, who died of tuberculosis in 1904. “Whenever there is someone in a family who has long been ill, and hopelessly ill,” he wrote, “there come painful moments when all timidly, secretly, at the bottom of their hearts long for his death.” A century later, my mother and I had come to long for the machine in my father’s chest to fail.
-
I'm just getting back online, my computer had a nervous breakdown.
I don't have time now to read all the posts, but I have a couple of comments. Sometime ago, here in Australia, a surgeon spoke on TV about the amount of elderly people with little hope of a recovery, filling Intensive Care beds for extended periods. He said pressures on our Health system meant that we should be considering whether our health dollars could be better used saving young people with many years left.
My youngest is turning 30 at the end of the year, and I would give up my right to an Intensive Care place in a heartbeat if he needed it. There is so much he hasn't experienced yet.
Steph, you're a bit tough on us Baby Boomers :). There are probably more of us on SeniorLearn than you realise. We're not all the same.
-
Dont honestly mean to be tough on anyone.. My two sons fit the age grouping for baby boomers at the far end.. being born in 61 and 64.. However many of the groupings do not apply to them..
-
I am shocked by idea that we have “A Duty to Die”. But without it being a duty then, while we have the capacity to decide how much medical life prolonging we want in the end, we should make our wishes clear to our loved ones about how our death should happen.
Children often don’t want to “pull the plug” because they love their parents, but it seems that the responsibility becomes theirs when life doesn’t want to quite and elderly parents can’t decide for themselves.
My mother, always the wise one, decided to just stop eating. At 95 she was almost blind, was deaf, had Alzheimer’s, was bed ridden, but she had no other illness, she just wanted to die and we all agreed that she deserved that her 5 children who were all present, let her go. We held her hand and sang a song she loved, she sighed and stopped breathing.
That’s what I want too but in the meantime I do everything I can to stay healthy naturally and I need help from the medical profession when it’s necessary to make life tolerable.
To prolong the life with years of pain and misery just for the benefit of the medical and pharmaceutical “industry” is elder abuse IMO.
By the way I love our public health care system in Canada, I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for that.
-
Talking Heads #9
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A two week forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online: bring your ideas and let's discuss.
Our Ninth Selection is: A Duty to Die
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/tomb7.jpg)
Is this what we've come to now?
Don't miss this very provocative article titled Higher Ed Can Lead to Lower Values in the Columbus Dispatch on May 14, 2010,
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/editorials/stories/2010/05/14/higher-ed-can-lead-to-lower-values.html
and let's talk about some of these issues, because there's a LOT here he covers, including escalating solutions for the elder generation, education, the virtues of poverty and a lot more!
Let's discuss!.
Pedl'n,
What a eye opener your article was for me. I have a friend who after having hospice take care of her dying husband, took the nurse's advice of using a magnet to turn off her husband's pacemaker. He died peacefully several hours afterward and his family were sitting with him through it all.
There are other things that dr's are dealing with when it comes to chronically ill elderly people. For instance, at the age of 75, I have two friends who have been told that they have polyps in their intestinal tracts. They are both on Coumadin. One's dr is insisting that she return for the surgery and the other's dr said that at her age, he doubted if her polyps would ever become cancerous. So, what does one do at a time like that? I think I would be asking for my colonoscopy pictures to have them evaluated by different drs. What do you think?
Look at my husband who had a heart pump implanted last year and how good he feels now and tell me the drs shouldn't have done that at his age of 75/76. We had to consider the possibility of him having a stroke. But this is true for any surgery that he agrees to now.
He just had an abdominal aortic aneurysm treated by inserting a stent/wall graft inside the aneurysm so that it could deflate and not burst. He is the first heart pump patient to have that done. We call him "curious George" when he hears of new procedures that might help him live a better. Its the engineer in him, I believe. And hope is never ending in him.
-
Adoannie, 75/76 is young now. Good for your husband.
-
Eloise,, Dont we all want to die at our time and place?? I agree with you.. My sons and I had to make the decision on my husband. Thank heaven, he had made his wishes clear to all.. But it is hard.. no question.
-
I think a lot of our comments are missing the mark, in terms of the article sited. Sowll is not opposed to any individual decisions, just to the idea that the decisions are being made by "intellectuals" whose values are different from his. We cede a great deal of our life decisions to experts of one kind or another, don't we? From teachers, to lawyers, we always seek the'best' advice.
As Janet says, the governemt could do more in research to find real cures, notjust existence-extending technology. The government already funds most medical research, through grants from the National Institutes of Health to academic institutions, etc. The current administration increased their budget but not by a lot. They do provide payment for doctors,usually primary care, who respond to thier patients requests for information about their options. This requires more time than a 10 minute appointment, and doctors formerly coud not be reimbursed for the time - unless the disguised it somehow in the Medicare codes.
But i doubt if the public would support, with additional taxes, the amount of money needed to find all the cures. and to give everybody everything they want.
So how do we make a policy on health care that will provide the greatest good to the greatest number of people? Should that be the criteria?
-
I think it would help if the government would clamp down on all of the hospitals who have to have the latest gadget no matter how many hospitals in the town already have them.. It brings the cost of care up with all of the building and the latest nonsense. How about it when there are multiple hospitals in a town, that each is permitted certain specialties without all of them jumping in.. Its like,, dont put money into the young doctors who want all of the expensive specialties. Put the money in the family doctors instead..
-
The "Determination of need " process was more or less set aside by the Reagan administration and never came back. A local board of providers and consumers made recommendations on capital expenditures over a million dollars, based on whether the community judged it as a "need". The recommendation was made to the state, which could then grant permission for the project to proceed. Hospitals hated it. It restricted their freedom in"marketing" and as a result of the law's ending, they were free to buy or build whatever they wanted. They borrowed the money with a state- insured loan. To pay the interest and principal on the loan, they raised thier rates. To pay the increased rates, the insurance companies raised their premiums. And on and on it went. We used to joke that some of the rural hospitals in our state could not achieve 100 percent utilization of their MRI's without running cows through it.
But today hospitals are all about "marketing" not meeting community need.
-
In a Boston Globe Opinion article on the 21st, the president of the biotech research firms in Greater Boston noted the trend of pharmaceutical companies to acquire more members with busiiness experience. These new ;members believe that the primary purpose of a pharmaceutical firm is to achieve an attractive return for shareholders. I guess they are right. But accordingly, these board members are forcing companies to cut back on expensive research and development. A new drug takes ten years to bring to market and can cost millions. they want the companies to maximize profits on drugs already on the market = cut production costs and increase aggressive marketing. Get more people to take the stuff you see advertised incessantly on TV and forget about finding cures.
Doesn't sound good for us.
I would favor the gvt. giving the pharmaceutical companies a deduction on taxes for that portion of their profits that the devote to R and D for diseases that are a threat to the health of the public and I put drug and alcohol addiction and obesity up there. What do you think?
-
We've always seemed to allot more money to treatments like "heroic measures" and end-of-life care, than for preventive care and quality-of-life things. And those are certainly the more costly and "glamorous" things. Better diet, exercise, life-style changes are not exciting and don't make headlines.
-
Right MaryZ, It doesn't make headlines and it makes no profit.
The younger generation will bear the brunt of elderly health care unless something is done. Prevention is not advertised enough but in the end the solution will eventually be raising the retirement age. France is already talking about it and the unions are flexing their muscles.
-
Life style changes are basic and not glamerous.. Its amazing sometimes in the excuses.. I have a friend who wont walk outside because it messes up her hair.. I was amazed at the excuse.. Told her that she keeps complaining about being out of breath.. She just needs to exercise.
When I was in rehab, my roommate was incredible. She regarded the rehab as a person excuse for laying in the bed. This was a class 1 rehab.. Therapy for four hours each morning, then lunch, a nap and back to the grind for several afternoon hours. anyone who was able was supposed to dress each morning and go down and have breakfast and other meals in the small dining room.. My roommate just sat in bed and whined.. Incredible.. She wanted to know where was the hairdresser.. ?? how about a massage?? The nurses finally broke the news that she needed an assisted living center or something of that type. This rehab was for getting people back on their feet... Now since she was on medicare like me, I know they paid the bills for someone who was being helped because she wouldnt.. Not a fair use of medicare money.
-
Amazing,Steph - but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. How sad that you had to be stuck in the same room with her for weeks. Yuck!
-
The therapest and nurses were fun and rescued me whenever they thought she was out of hand.. She actually asked a nurse to wash her false teeth.. Amazing woman. Only thing that drove me nuts, was because she refused to do anything and slept a good deal of the afternoon, she stayed up most of the night , kept her tv on and turned it to the loudest setting. Hard to rest and the nurses gave me sleeping pills because of the nightmares from the accident. My head therapist was so very kind to me. She came each morning when I was eating breakfast to check on me, sat with me at the table, noted I was not eating and gently tried to get me things I thought I might eat. The grief at that point was so overwhelming that eating was simply beyond me. They brought me things from the cafeteria,, and like the residents in the hospital when they discovered that I like
Dunking
Donuts coffee, stopped on the way in and brought me a cup.. which mostly sat and got cold.. Eating is hard at the beginning of grief, at least it was for me.
-
On June 22 bellemere said:
As Janet says, the government could do more in research to find real cures, notjust existence-extending technology.
No, no, no! I did not say that, and would never suggest that the government become involved in medical research. That is not the role of government. I accused the government of placing burdensome taxes and regulations on the pharmaceutical industry, making it difficult and extremely expensive for private corporations to do the research; but that did not imply that the government should take on the responsibility of research. I did also state that government could establish "policy that would encourage the expansion of medical research and production of equipment or pharmaceuticals, medical degree programs, or that would provide incentives for the medical industry to meet the medical needs of all." That could take the form of abolishing corporate taxes, examining all the nitpicking regulations to see where they can be eased in order to facilitate production yet still maintain safety, allowing pharmaceuticals, device manufacturers, medical schools, hospitals, doctors, etc., to make their own determinations of how to meet the needs and demands for health care. The last thing I want are government bureaucrats taking over yet another function of the private sector.
-
Steph, someone in a nursing home on Medicare who refuses to participate in doctor-ordered rehab therapy will probably be told that Medicare will stop paying and would become private pay. I've seen that happen a lot.
From what I read, drug companies spend more on marketing than they do on research and development, and much of the innovative research is funded by the National Institute of Health. More of the "new" drugs that are developed these days are just small changes to existing drugs that will allow the drug companies to continue selling their brand drugs as the older drugs become generic.
If the companies are allowed to make "their own determinations of how to meet the needs and demands for health care" we will not have innovation, because the companies will produce what they can make the most money at, not necessarily what people need. As I understand it, also, more money is spent on marketing than on R&D.
-
I sold off all of my pharmacy stock since when I read the company reports, they all spend far more on advertising and what they call good will,etc. I want research. I have a policy of not wanting to take any drug that takes out full page ads in magazines.. My doctor laughs, but agrees with me..
-
NIH is the largest source of funding for medical research in the world, creating hundreds of thousands of high-quality jobs by funding thousands of scientists in universities and research institutions in every state across America and around the globe.
I can't understand why anyone would want to do away with the National Institutes of Health. Among the successes to which they have contributed is the extension of life expectancy to 77.7, and the decline in disability of those over 65 years of age. It is a division of the United States Health and Human Services and it performs consistently well over the years. Thank God for the dedicated scientists who are willing to work for probably far less money than they could earn in the private sector, making drugs for indigestion and erectile disfunction.
But we still are not adressing the contention of the Sowell article. He believes that higher education produces lower moral values.
The Ranters, Limbaugh and Beck seem to agree. Their opposeion to Elena Kagan
s confirmation as a justice of the Supreme Court rest largely on her attendance at Harvard Law School and even her position as its Dean. But Justice Antonin Scalia and Justice Kennedy also attended. The retired Justice Souter had a double stigma, Harvard College and Harvard Law School. They have never been considered elitist. and liberal bacause of theri education .
\A student whose parents make less than 60,000 pays nothing to attend and eighty percent of the sutdents are receiving some kind of financial aid. Their diversity is one of thei proudest achievments. The term "elite" does not apply to most of the college students today, whether at Harvard or a state university.
-
To Steph - You are one strong woman, going through grief and rehab and having to listen to that airhead whiner in the next bed I think I would have stuffed a sock down her throat.
To Janet - I think what we are is agreeing to disagee. The tension between the role of government and the private sector is part and parcel of American economics. I believe that the U. S.
Constitution enjoins on the government the duty to "promote the general welfare" - not insure it - and I think the two systems have served us well. My sort of rule of thumb is: government for the "needs" and private enterprise for the "wants" .
But is Elena Kagan a less moral person for having been raised in a big city and attending a private university? If so, that would apply to an awful lot of Americans. Is the value we place on education related only to the ability to earn more money or do we also want a more educated and thoughtful citizenry?
-
I guess that is what bothers me the most about this man and his writing. Why would moral only apply to the ill educated and poor.. Just not going to be that way. Moral is something that is or is not in all people. There are people who truly cannot see beyond t heir own needs and desires and others who always put others first..
-
Just want to share some prize-winning personals parodies from the New York Review of Books, although husband threw it out before I got them all. Talk about people over 75 being liveley! some of the actual ads were pretty funn, too [ - "foxy Manhattan cougar, 84, wants to meet open-minded gentleman..._ Cougar?
or "West Palm hottie, can still drive at night, seeking lady friend....." Well!
One prize winner was "One-breasted woman seeks on-armed man" Really!
And "Enjoy long walks from the parking lot to the doctor's office?"
and "Still have some teeth, hair , and ample supply of blue pills....." I'm sure he means vitamins.
These people don't seem to grasp the duty to die, do they?
-
Maybe they think they have a duty to enter their second childhood?
-
Some of the widows in my widow group are venturing a toe here and there in the internet dating pool. Their stories are pretty funny.. Alas, I am still too deep in grief to be interested in the other half of the world. Still long for the one who is gone way too much