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Archives & Readers' Guides => Archives of Book Discussions => Topic started by: BooksAdmin on August 31, 2010, 09:23:38 PM

Title: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: BooksAdmin on August 31, 2010, 09:23:38 PM

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lefthand/lefthandcvr.jpg)

Ursula Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness

A classic, groundbreaking science fiction novel, which explores issues of gender role, honor, trust and suspicion, against a background of survival in a cruelly harsh wintry climate.

Discussion schedule:
Oct 1-7 Ch 1-6
Oct 8-14 Ch 7-12
Oct 15-21 Ch 13-17
Oct 22-28 Ch 18-20; afterword (http://theliterarylink.com/afterword.html) and appendices for those who have them. Link to afterword (http://theliterarylink.com/afterword.html).
Oct 29-31 Thoughts about anything in the book or Le Guin's other works

Questions for week 4 (October 22-28)

1. Traveling on the ice and coping with the weather is described in great detail here. How did this affect you?

2. In this section, Ai feels that he finally truly sees Estraven. What does he see?

3. Why does Ai want to teach Estraven mindspeak? When Estraven learns to mindspeak, why does he hear Ai speak with the voice of his dead brother?

4. Why do you think that the Ekumen sends an envoy alone to an alien planet?

5. Why does Estraven ski into range of the border guards?

6. What is Ai's reaction on seeing his fellow envoys again?

7. What did Ai want to accomplish by going to Estre?

8. Was the ending satisfactory?

9. What are your thoughts about the controversy regarding the use of masculine pronouns for the Gethens and the discussion/examples in the afterword and appendices?

Previous Discussion Questions (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/LeftHandDarkness_LeGuin.html)

Ursula Le Guin website (http://www.ursulakleguin.com/UKL_info.html)

Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 01, 2010, 09:09:05 AM

Welcome, everyone! I hope you'll join us to talk about this remarkable book. It was a good read when I first read it 30 years ago, and it's still a good read. Come in, say hi so we know you're with us, and we can chat a little while we wait for the discussion to begin.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 01, 2010, 09:59:37 AM

Welcome everyone! I too found this a remarkable book. It made a great impression on me when I first read it. I'll enjoy talking about it with everyone in October.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: JoanP on September 01, 2010, 12:17:33 PM

Maybe I'll be the only one here who has never read Ursula Le Guin - but I am happy to be in the company of those of you who have. I'm not familiar with the title of this book, but have been meaning to try one of Le Guin's books for a number of years. Remember Karen Joy Fowler's "The Jane Austen Book Club?" She talked about the author quite a bit and my interest was piqued. It took this group to finally get me into it.

I'm wondering if it resembles a fairy tale...

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Frybabe on September 01, 2010, 03:07:06 PM

I'll be here.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 01, 2010, 06:04:41 PM

Joan and Frybabe. I'm so glad you both will be joining this discussion.

Ursula Le Guin does write some stories that I'd say are similar to fairy tales but I don't remember Left Hand of Darkness as one of those. I haven't read it in a while so I'll have to think about that while reading it again.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: salan on September 01, 2010, 06:44:14 PM

I have my book and will be joining you. I've never read Ursula, but have been meaning to for several years. My interest was piqued again after watching the Jane Austen Book Club. I love that movie!
Sally

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Frybabe on September 01, 2010, 07:55:48 PM

My favorite LeGuin so far is The Lathe of Heaven. There is another one that I liked, but I don't remember the name and my book seems to have gone into hiding. I've read some of the Earthsea stories, but as well written as they were, I couldn't get into the story line.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 01, 2010, 10:29:34 PM

Welcome, Salan. I'm glad that both you and JoanP were drawn to Ursula Le Guin through the Jane Austen Book Club.

Frybabe, I really like The Lathe of Heaven too. Have you seen the television adaptation?

The following is from wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lathe_of_Heaven

Everyone: Don't read the plot summary on that page if you plan on reading the The Lathe of Heaven!

An adaptation entitled The Lathe of Heaven produced by the public television station WNET, and directed by David Loxton and Fred Barzyk, was released in 1980. It was PBS's first direct-to-TV film production and was produced with a budget of $ 250 000. Generally faithful to the novel, it stars Bruce Davison as George Orr, Kevin Conway as William Haber, and Margaret Avery as Heather LeLache. Ursula K. Le Guin herself was heavily involved in the production of the 1980 adaptation, and has several times expressed her satisfaction with it.[3][9]

PBS' rights to rebroadcast the film expired in 1988, and it became the most-requested program in PBS history. Fans were extremely critical of WNET's supposed "warehousing" of the film, but the budgetary barriers to rebroadcast were high: the station needed to pay for and clear rights with all participants in the original program; negotiate a special agreement with the composer of the film's score; and deal with the Beatles recording excerpted in the original soundtrack, "With a Little Help from My Friends", which is an integral plot point in both the novel and the film. A cover version replaces the Beatles' own recording in the home video release.

The home video release is remastered from a video tape of the original broadcast; PBS, thinking the rights issues would dog the production forever, did not save a copy of the production in their archives.

A second adaptation was released in 2002 and retitled Lathe of Heaven. Produced for the A&E Network and directed by Philip Haas, the film starred James Caan, Lukas Haas, and Lisa Bonet. The 2002 adaptation discards a significant portion of the plot, some essential characters, and much of the philosophical underpinnings of the book and the original PBS production. Ursula K. Le Guin disapproved of the A&E production, and stated that she found it "misguided and uninteresting".[9]

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: kidsal on September 02, 2010, 01:23:25 AM

Found that I have this book on my book shelf so count me in!

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Steph on September 02, 2010, 06:04:43 AM

I am in.. Cant find a copy in my home library, will try ebooks or possibly my swap club. I read it and loved it years and years ago. Have forgotten it now.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 02, 2010, 10:18:23 AM

Welcome, JoanP, Frybabe, Sally, Kidsal, and Steph! We're getting a stellar crew here.

JoanP, I don't think "Left Hand" is very fairy-tale like, but there is a journey through icy mountains that has a surreal quality to it. The Earthsea trilogy (more than 3 books) is pretty mythic.

It's interesting that "The Jane Austen Book Club" led several of you to try this book. Most of you weren't here when we discussed Fowler's book on the old site. Fowler joined in, to good effect, and when she was in town for a book signing, she had tea with JoanP, Deems and her daughter, and me. She was most gracious and friendly, chatting with us for a long time about everything under the sun.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 02, 2010, 10:26:22 AM

"The Lathe of Heaven" is my favorite book too. Marcie, I didn't know about the PBS production. Netflix has it! It's now in my queue.

Frybabe, tell us more about the book you liked, and maybe someone will recognize it.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 02, 2010, 11:11:11 AM

Kidsal and Steph! It's great that you'll be joining us.

If I recall correctly, the PBS production of The Lathe of Heaven has a sort of "old tv" kind of feel to it. Not the kind of crisp production values we have today for many films. I still found it very interesting.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: mrssherlock on September 02, 2010, 12:13:49 PM

Revisiting these titles, favorites from so long ago, is like flashing back to one of my other lives. (Mom, PTA, Boy and Girl Scouts, Little League, station wagon.) Usually my life isn't a feature of my memories of a particular book but I'm feeling a strong sense of deja vu. Not specifics, just the flavor.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 02, 2010, 12:55:57 PM

mrssherlock, I too feel that these books bring back a certain atmosphere. The setting for The Lathe of Heaven is Portland, Oregon so it might be doubly interesting to you. I'm glad that you're joining us for The Left Hand of Darkness.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Frybabe on September 02, 2010, 01:05:50 PM

The Dispossessed, that's the title of the other book. LeGuin wrote two short stories that were apparently the precursers to the Earthsea series. It turns out that I only read part of the first story. My bookmark is still where I left it years ago. I'll be darned if I remember why I never finished the book. (The Wind's Twelve Quarters is composed of short stories.

I remember seeing the PBS production. It seemed so fantastic. I didn't understand some of it, which is why I bought the book. The book explained a lot I missed from the production.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 02, 2010, 01:31:10 PM

Oh, yes, Frybabe. I recall reading The Dispossed but I'm vague on the details. Wikipedia says:

"The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia is a 1974 utopian science fiction novel by Ursula K. Le Guin, set in the same fictional universe as that of The Left Hand of Darkness (the Hainish Cycle). The book won the Nebula Award in 1974,[1] both the Hugo and Locus Awards in 1975,[2] and received a nomination for the John W. Campbell Memorial Award in 1975.[2] It is also notable for achieving a degree of literary recognition unusual for science fiction works."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Steph on September 04, 2010, 06:11:47 AM

The discussion sounds as if it is going to be fun. Now to get through September, which is not shaping up to be much fun.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 04, 2010, 08:46:09 PM

Steph, I'm sorry that this month is going to be difficult for you. I know you'll get through it. Please check in with us whenever you want to vent or share.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 04, 2010, 10:21:00 PM

Quote from: Frybabe on September 02, 2010, 01:05:50 PM

I remember seeing the PBS production. It seemed so fantastic. I didn't understand some of it, which is why I bought the book. The book explained a lot I missed from the production.

I find that a lot with movies from books that have complicated ideas--the other way, too. I often see a movie and think "I wonder if I would have understood that if I hadn't read the book".

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Steph on September 05, 2010, 09:37:21 AM

So many movies if they do a complicated book, leave out the subplots and sometimes that makes for a puzzle.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: ursamajor on September 06, 2010, 01:01:10 PM

I'll be joining. I have asked the library to hold the book for me.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 06, 2010, 03:09:55 PM

Great, ursamajor, I look forward to talking with you.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 06, 2010, 09:00:10 PM

That's great, ursamajor. I'm glad you'll be with us and that you're able to get the book.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: JoanK on September 07, 2010, 11:27:46 PM

PatH has been trying to get me to read this book for years. This is the perfect chance-- I'll be joining you once Zeitoun is over. (Now to find the copy that Pat gave me).

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 08, 2010, 01:20:24 AM

Wonderful, JoanK!! I'm very glad that Pat persuaded you to read the book. It will be great to hear your thoughts about it.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Steph on September 08, 2010, 05:52:15 AM

We are really going to have a nice group.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 08, 2010, 11:21:50 AM

I agree with you, steph!

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 08, 2010, 09:47:23 PM

Marcie, thank you so much for calling my attention to the 1979 PBS version of "The Lathe of Heaven" I watched it tonight, and I think it's about as good as it can get translating that complicated book to film. Sure, it shows its age and the visual effects are simplistic, but they really get the spirit of the book. A lot of detail had to be left out, though. I'm not sure how it would feel or how much you wouldn't understand if you hadn't already read the book. If you have read it, the film is a wonderful illustration of it.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 08, 2010, 10:40:45 PM

Thanks, PatH, for your endorsement of the 1979-80 PBS version. Ursula Le Guin worked with the producers on that one. I read online that she wasn't pleased with the 2002 A&E remake.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: fairanna on September 20, 2010, 10:14:22 PM

WELL I CAN SEE I AM OUT OF TOUCH I DONT SEEM TO KNOW HOW TO POST BUT I DID ORDER THE BOOK AND IF I CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO READ AND POST I WILL BE ON HAND IN OCTOBER ...ANNA

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: fairanna on September 20, 2010, 10:22:53 PM

WELL I READ THE OTHER POSTS AND AM GLAD I HAVE NEVER READ THIS BOOK SO I CAN START OUT NEW AND WITH NO MEMORIES TO MESS WITH MY MIND LOL I DONATED 400 BOOKS TO MY CHURCH TO SELL AND MY SHELVES HAVE BEEN BARE BUT AM RAPIDLY FILLING THEM UP...NOW IF I CAN JOIN THE DISCUSSIONS EACH MONTH I WILL HAVE MORE BOOKS TO DONATE..LOOKING FORWARD TO THE DISCUSSION SINCE IT IS THE BEST PART OF READING DISCUSSING WHAT OTHERS THINK AND FEEL AND SHARE I AM GETTING EXCITED !!!!!!!!!!!ANNA

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 20, 2010, 10:49:40 PM

Anna, I'm so glad to see you back! Your posts have come through very well.

How generous of you to donate 400 books. I hope that you enjoy reading this one. I think it should make for a good discussion. It provides a lot to think about.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 20, 2010, 11:19:02 PM

Hi, Anna! It's great to see you here. It's a good book and a great bunch of people, so you're all set to enjoy it.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: ursamajor on September 21, 2010, 08:11:05 AM

I donated a lot of books to the Library a while back; they will take anything and put some on the shelves and sell the others at book sales. What I have left are so old nobody would buy them - books from my family and my husband's family. Now if I buy a current book I try to donate it as soon as I finish it; the library never has enough copies of current popular books.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 21, 2010, 10:46:09 AM

That's a good policy, ursamajor, to donate your books after reading. They certainly can accumulate. Your library is very fortunate.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: JoanK on September 21, 2010, 03:13:15 PM

Hey, ANNA! Great to see you here.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Steph on September 24, 2010, 06:11:45 AM

Hi Anna.. glad to hear from you.
I belong to a paperback swap club on line, so most of the books get recycled to that. But I do and have donated a lot of hard backs in the last year. I also donated about a 100 cds..all classical. My husband adored classical and had a huge collection.. I kept the opera, but gave them most of the rest.. The library put them into their collection.. Glad to give someone the joy of listening to them and it makes me smile to remember my Tim working on his stained glass, listening to the music and waving his arms to conduct periodically.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 24, 2010, 11:25:19 AM

Steph, what a beautiful memory you have and how wonderful that you're sharing Tim's love of music with so many others through your CD donation.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 24, 2010, 12:23:37 PM

(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lefthand/lefthandcvr.jpg)

Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: JoanK on September 24, 2010, 01:53:55 PM

Steph: how wonderful. I too love classical music, and have listened to many a CD at the library. My old library had a special section for classical music, arranged in alphabetical order. Unfortunately, the order was by whatever word came first on the CD, so Beethoven's fifth symphony with the Philadelphia Orchestra under Eugene Ormandy could be under Beethoven, Ludvig, symphony, fifth, Philadelphia, Eugene, Ormandy, or classical favorites.

I got my book yesterday, so I'm ready to go.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 24, 2010, 04:10:07 PM

Great, JoanK. I'll post what's the first chunk shortly.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Frybabe on September 24, 2010, 08:40:28 PM

I've started reading. The introduction itself could take a few days of philosophical discussion.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 24, 2010, 09:40:26 PM

Quote from: Frybabe on September 24, 2010, 08:40:28 PM

I've started reading. The introduction itself could take a few days of philosophical discussion.

Good point, Frybabe!

I'm glad you have the book, JoanK.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 25, 2010, 08:35:15 AM

Only 6 days to go! Let's take chapters 1-6 for the first week.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Steph on September 26, 2010, 05:57:48 AM

yes, The introduction is wild.. Lots of things to chew on.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: mrssherlock on September 29, 2010, 04:14:42 PM

When I looked for the book I learned that it has been assigned to a class hereabouts and there are non available. I'm hoping Amazon can get it here on time.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: JoanK on September 29, 2010, 05:16:53 PM

Two days to go!

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 29, 2010, 05:21:04 PM

That's a bummer, Jackie. I wouldn't have expected that. I'm glad they read her in school, though.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 29, 2010, 05:24:29 PM

The first time I read "Left Hand", I had trouble at the start with the many names and countries and conventions. But it sorted itself out. In the end, the amount of stuff you have to keep track of turns out to be manageable.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: salan on September 29, 2010, 05:56:06 PM

I am glad you said that Pat H. So far, trying to keep track on the names is giving me a headache! I am struggling through this first part, and hope it gets better soon.
Sally

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 29, 2010, 06:15:49 PM

It doesn't help that the names are so complex. For instance Estraven's full name is Therem Harth rem ir Estraven. Therem is his first name, Harth is his last name, and Estraven refers to his family's land--Estre. It's as bad as Russian novels. Also, as in chapter 6, she occasionally changes narrator, and you have to catch the clues. But it's worth it.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: Steph on September 30, 2010, 06:29:15 AM

I remember struggling with the names before and I am again. But I know it is worth it as the story goes on.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: ursamajor on September 30, 2010, 08:38:47 AM

I have had the same problem. The first person voice for two different characters is very confusing in addition to the complex names. I think I would have enjoyed the book more if I didn't remember the Cold War. The politics is familiar in spite of the alien location.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 30, 2010, 10:09:55 AM

Fortunately, the politics is only one aspect of a complex story. Unfortunately, some of it is still relevant.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 30, 2010, 10:45:35 AM

Yes, the first person is a bit confusing. You have to read a couple of sentences to get clues as to whether its Genly Ai or Estraven who is talking/writing.

Salan and Steph, I struggle with the names too. I usually don't remember names in the books I read. I just get ahold of the main characters and glide along from there, occasionally needing to look back to check on someone.

Politics is definitely a theme. Ursamajor, it definitely applies to the Cold War, during which it was written but, as PatH says, unfortunately it's also relevant today.

When we start our discussion tomorrow, we can make note of other themes we find in the book.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: fairanna on September 30, 2010, 06:25:44 PM

Well I AM HERE and my book arrived Have yet to open it since the mailman left it today...Funny though the other day I called Joan K and told her it had arrived It was a hardback ( I didnt know it was a paperback) so I put ti somewhere so I would know where it was ...Yesterday I couldnt find it and was so upset SO this am I TORE up the house trying to find the book We have been having torrential rain and the mail man was late ...when i went out doors to bring it in there was a small package from B&N I couldnt imagine what it was YES when I opened it ..it WAS THE BOOK I called Joan and I believe I dreamt it had arrived because I wanted to have it before today..Joan and I laughed and when I told my daughter the storyshe said "Sounds just like you!" this eve I will read the chapters suggested and be back tomorrow to see whatever one is saying ...when I read the synopsis I thought O GREAT I HAVE ALWAYS LOVED ADULT FAIRY TALES I love to visit someones mind and imagination and it would seem from the remarks I just read this is going to be good/un Best to all.. anna

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: mrssherlock on September 30, 2010, 06:52:12 PM

Anna: My book arrived today also. Lots of reading to do plus my Latin 101 homework, I may not get to my knitting at all!

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 30, 2010, 07:10:23 PM

Jackie and Anna, hooray! I was hoping for that. I'm hoping we'll take things vaguely in order, so if you can even read a bit you'll be set to go. Just for fun I checked my library, and I guess it isn't assigned anywhere, because I had my choice of 12 copies.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: PatH on September 30, 2010, 07:13:01 PM

Jackie, was it you who used to have the quote from Socrates: "The misuse of language induces evil in the soul." at the bottom of your posts?

Turns out it's one of Le Guin's favorites.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin Pre-Discussion
Post by: marcie on September 30, 2010, 07:20:07 PM

That's great, Anna and Jackie, that your books arrived. We're all set for tomorrow.

Anna, the book isn't exactly what I'd call a fairy tale or fantasy-science fiction. There are some mythic elements that Ursula Le Guin weaves into the book. It is very imaginative. Le Guin does create a whole other world in a lot of detail. We'll be going through the same journey as the emissary to the world, trying to understand its people and cultures with our own perspectives on things influencing us.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: mrssherlock on September 30, 2010, 09:10:47 PM

Pat: Wish I could claim the Socrates quote, but it wasn't me.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 01, 2010, 09:49:24 AM

At last! Here we go! Good morning, everyone. I can hardly wait to get started on this meaty book. Where shall we begin? The introduction? Genly Ai? Those of you reading the book for the first time, how do you find it? Rereaders, does it still seem good?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 01, 2010, 10:40:52 AM

yes, welcome everyone. Where are you in the book so far? Are you reading an edition that has appendices at the back (which you don't have to read until the end; we'll save them for the last few days of October). My own book is an early edition without appendices but my library has the 25th anniversary edition with an afterword and appendices.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 01, 2010, 12:57:16 PM

I was so pleased when my Library sent an email telling me that my name came up in the queue for "Ursula Le Guin's "The Left Hand of Darkness." With an Introduction by Harold Bloom, no less.

Well, I finally settled down to read the first 6 chapters two nights ago, but was dismayed to find the WHOLE book is full of essays on Le Guin's work. But NOT the actual work. Sooo, I got on the queue for her book again...I'm #3 in line for the book - library owns two copies. Can't tell how long I'll have to wait.

I intend to read these essays so that I won't be too far behind when I finally get the book. Marcie, there is a index at the back. How about I become your Harold Bloom resource - when you have a puzzling question, which might be often, I could look to see what Harold has to say...

He had this to say early on about Left Hand -
"Le Guin's greatest accomplishment, certainly reflecting the finest balance of her powers is The Left Hand of Darkness. Conceptually and stylistically, Left Hand is the strongest of her dozen or so major narratives.
It is a book that sustains many rereadings partly because its enigmas are unresolvable, and partly because it has the crucial quality of great representation,
which is that it yields up new perspectives upon what we call reality."

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanR on October 01, 2010, 01:53:20 PM

I found my copy of Left Hand of Darkness - knew it had to be somewhere here in this house since it's the sort of book you never let go. I read it back in the 70's, I think, and loved the writing - such strong images! The very "otherness" of the story was most intriguing and gave one much to ponder over. I'm so glad of this nudge to re-read it. Re-reading is something that I feel forced to give up usually since, now that I have so very many years behind me and who knows how many ahead, I look at all the books on my shelves that I have yet to read and wonder how I'll ever catch up!
I've up through chapter 2 in our reading and already find myself stopping to enjoy a particular word (such as "tillth") or a scene as the one in which Getheren was in the center of the blizzard or the one of setting the central stone in an arch.
The introduction makes my head spin! Of course all novelists are liars - I can understand that. What will take a lot of analysis is the bit about metaphor.

Glad to hear about Bloom's book, JoanP - I'll have to see if I can get it from my library!

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 01, 2010, 02:03:28 PM

"Partly because it's enigmas are unresolvable"--oh, good, that means that whenever there's something we can't figure out, we can say "that must be one of the unresolvable enigmas". There are lots of things in the book that are open to several interpretations, and it's fun to play with them. Ai says in the first page or so "...if at moments the facts seem to alter with an altered voice, why then you can choose the fact you like best; yet none of them are false, and it is all one story."

It'll be good to have a resident expert, JoanP, but be careful in your reading. There are several plot twists that it would be better not to know ahead of time.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 01, 2010, 03:31:42 PM

""...if at moments the facts seem to alter with an altered voice, why then you can choose the fact you like best; yet none of them are false, and it is all one story."

Sounds like Six Characters in Search of an AuthoR" ? It's been years since I saw that -- I may be wrong.

I like the idea of unresolvable enigmas.

Had tried to read the book earlier, and was stopped by the unrememorable names. I have a blind spot about names. But it didn't seem so bad this time.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: fairanna on October 01, 2010, 06:24:08 PM

Well I am not sure how far I went I will have to check tonight I read until I felt tired enough for sleep and then read this am for a bit..What can I say ? I LOVE IT and am so glad to be here -----one thing I felt some of the conversations between the two men who were having it could be heard today I cant say but I feel from the whatever I read when I am finished I will feel you could say the same thing about all civilizations ..past, present future People wherever they are ,in what ever time frame are going to be and authors wherever they choose to tell thier story have to use what they know about the people they have known and know...you can put us in the future the past in imaginary places .. that never existed , dont exist and wont likely insist but even our imaginations can be and are affected by what we have seen in life and if you are a reader than you most likely have seen it all....but that is what I love about reading .to see what the author is going to tell us and how they use what they already know or imagined... AND FOR ME THAT GIVES ME JOY I CAN BY THE AUTHORS STORY BE WITH THEM AND LIVE IN THIER TIME FRAME AND "FEEL" what they tell us.. people who dont read are missing a lot! GLAD I AM ME AND HERE WITH YOU>...

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 01, 2010, 06:35:21 PM

JoanP, I'm sorry that your book doesn't include the actual novel but it's great that you have Harold Bloom's commentary on the novel. It's great that you'll provide that resource to the discussion.

LOL, PatH. I like your take on the "unresolvable enigmas."

JoanK, I'm glad you're forging on. I hope anyone who is frustrated by the names will just keep going. It will get better.

JoanP, I really like the part of Bloom's description of Le Guin's work that you quoted: "it yields up new perspectives upon what we call reality." That's one of the main aspects of the book that I love. That may be similar to what your experience of the book is Anna. I love what you said!

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 01, 2010, 08:02:16 PM

Quote from: fairanna on October 01, 2010, 06:24:08 PM

...and authors wherever they choose to tell thier story have to use what they know about the people they have known and know...

Anna, you are so right. An author who is extrapolating, no matter how fantastical or far afield, is extrapolating from something, and that something has to be the present and the people that he knows. I'm glad you are liking the book. I hoped you would.

JoanK, I don't think it's as bad as Pirandello. You pretty much know the facts of what is happening, it's the details and motives and philosophy that are up for interpretation.

JoanR, I'm glad you are enjoying Le Guin's language and imagery. It can get pretty intense, as in the story of Getheren (chapter 2). Really unearthly.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: fairanna on October 01, 2010, 09:24:39 PM

Well I just finished the 5th chapter ...I could read faster BUT then I wouldnt be there and that is the way I feel I KNOW these people and I think we all do because however the author decides what they say and how they act I keep feeling in some of my reading since I was a child and that they are people I have read about and not always in the past I keep thinkig ok who is living now that I am reminded of....NOW that is a good book!What a great 1st of October today has been ! Hope all of you have had a great day.....

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Frybabe on October 01, 2010, 10:33:49 PM

I am somewhere in chapter 3, I think. Having had to deal with an accounting test and a paper due today has slowed down my reading time.

What did you all think of the tale of Getheren's exile? I found the description of the world of white and his meeting with Hode fascinating. What we might call a near death experience perhaps?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 02, 2010, 06:05:51 AM

I have read the first six chapters as that is what someone said for the first week. I want to go on, but am trying not to read ahead this time.
The two narrators was annoying at first, but now I am into it..A winter world.. and as it is hinting,, all people everywhere came from a common source, but that is way too disturbing for these people.. I love the idea.. genetic drift is always an interesting subject.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 02, 2010, 10:37:00 AM

Now that you mention it, Frybabe, it does have the feel of a near-death experience. Did you notice that the only part of Getheren to suffer permanent damage from the frost was the part that Hode touched?

I'm glad you're enjoying it, Steph. What do you like best so far?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 02, 2010, 02:32:02 PM

Faxe tells Ai that they perfected Foretelling "To exhibit the perfect uselessness of knowing the answer to the wrong question." What do you think of this?

Fascinating. Myths are full of instances where people asked the wrong question of an oracle, and it distroyed them. But I've never seen it expressed so like this before.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 02, 2010, 02:35:18 PM

"4. Le Guin interrupts her narrative with many bits of Gethenian myth, religion and history. What does this do? Does it work for you?

It didn't work for me, because it was so sudden and unexpected. I couldn't shift gears fast enough. Now I am warned, and also realize that the whole story has a mythic quality, I'll reread the story.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 02, 2010, 05:41:02 PM

JoanK, you'd better oil up your gears. You'll be shifting them a lot.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Frybabe on October 02, 2010, 06:14:42 PM

The questions are ambiguous. They seem clear enough to the asker. To the Forteller, they are not precise enough. I've had that happen to me on occasion.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 02, 2010, 06:58:57 PM

(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lefthand/lefthandcvr.jpg)

Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)

The ambiguous answer is the stock in trade of human foretellers. The Sibyl answered Croesus's question of who will win the battle with the words "A great empire will be destroyed." Cyrus didn't realize it would be his.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 02, 2010, 07:49:11 PM

Foretelling is an interesting concept. I think thus far, I find the mix required for foretelling the most interesting.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 03, 2010, 03:00:17 PM

The Sibyls tended to be pretty sneaky in their answers.

Yes, Steph, it's a strange mix. I found the Foretelling scene kind of far out, but effective.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: salan on October 03, 2010, 06:31:41 PM

Am up to date on my reading; and still not sure what I think of this book. I am having trouble keeping track of "who is who"(or is that whom?), and with "what is what". Can't say that I'm really enjoying it for those reasons. Maybe my poor addled brain has been reading too much "fluff' lately~
Sally

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Frybabe on October 03, 2010, 07:41:09 PM

Quote

They lacked the capacity to mobilize. They behaved like animals, in that respect; or like women.

p.48-49 in my book

What do you make of that? Women put in the same sentence with animals. Women can't mobilize? That's news to me. I think Carrie Nation, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem and all the rest would be surprised too.Maybe in Mr. Ai's world/universe they don't. Anyhow, that sentence made me sit up and say, now wait just one dog gone minute.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 03, 2010, 08:44:30 PM

Yes, Frybabe, I sat up at that one too, but Ai then compares the men to ants. He makes a number of sex-linked generalizations and assumptions, most of them amusing, but some, like this one, annoying. I assume they are supposed to illustrate the thinking he starts out with, which gets challenged through the course of the book. In Ai's world, as described in Le Guin's other books in the series, women seem to have the same sort of status and jobs as men. (I'm not sure who does the mobilizing, though.)

Cheer up, Sally. The worst is over. You've met most of the important people already, and a lot of the minor figures you've met drop out, so mostly you're only following a few names.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: deems 2 on October 03, 2010, 10:55:42 PM

Well, I am proud to have made it through the first six chapters. I'm with Sally. Those names are difficult. The foreign names of people and places were difficult, yes. But the unfamiliar verbs and nouns were even more of a stumbling block for me. I am not sure how much I understood of what went on in those first chapters.

I keep considering what is true and what isn't true and who to believe and when to believe them and who to trust. Le Guin tells us to distrust everything (she) say(s).” p. xv. Genly tells us to “choose the fact (we) like the best.” p. 1. Then Genly tells us that he doesn't trust Estraven. And that he doesn't like him. p. 7. Genly also tells us that he doesn't believe what he himself has said. “I did not, in that moment believe them myself.” p. 18. And then the king tells Genly to “tell (his) own lies, do (his) own deeds. And trust no one.” p. 32

So for me, Le Guin has created a very uncomfortable situation. I don't understand the language or the names. I don't know who to trust. And I am seeing through Genly’s eyes and Genly is uncomfortable. He is a foreigner to this world and he is a foreigner to my world as well.

I like the interruptions of myth and history. They progress naturally. I am being told a story. I am no longer in Genly’s uncomfortable skin. Actually, when Estraven takes over the narration of the story, I am at home. Estraven isn't a foreigner to this world. But Genly doesn't trust Estraven …

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 04, 2010, 12:41:46 AM

Welcome, deems 2. It's so good to see you here. That's a good description of the uncertainties one feels on reading the book for the first time. That was a long time ago for me, and the book is easier when reread. She gets a good tone in her myths, doesn't she?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 04, 2010, 12:55:09 AM

What great thoughtful posts. I think our confusion is understandable and, perhaps, helps us to identify with Genly Ai. He doesn't understand the culture and he too is meeting people he doesn't know. I think maybe we're supposed to be a little uncomfortable.

Welcome, Deems2. Thanks for the emphasis on the trust/mistrust issue. It seems to have a central role in this book. A lone emissary is sent to the alien world in order to engender trust in the population, which wouldn't occur if more people were sent at once. Still, he has to earn their trust about his story (which he can't actually prove) about his mission and where he is from. Ai also has to figure out whom he can trust--or with whom he can create a trusting relationship.

Deems2, I agree that we are being told a story. You feel that the mythic/history sections help in the narration. I read somewhere that Ursula Le Guin was concerned that her publishers were going to ask her to leave out those sections since most books of the time were straight narratives, without the "interruption" of parallel stories.

I think Pat is on to something when she says that Ai's stereotypes of women (the book was written in the late 1960s) are part of the culture he brings with him. They are likely an obstacle for him on this alien world that doesn't have that kind of gender discrimination.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 04, 2010, 06:06:37 AM

I agree that Ai's version of women and men is essential to the book, since that is being questioned on this version of a world. I love the myths involved.. Estraven seems to have been prepared to be abandoned and makes his way swiftly through his world. Interesting. No war, but a violent world in its own right.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 04, 2010, 02:59:21 PM

I don't know if Ai asked the right question or not. It looks straightforward, but I'm sure at the end, we'll find out there was some twist to it.

Interesting that when the weaver gave the answer as a foreteller, he appeared as a woman, even though he is androgenous, and the quiestion had nothing to do with sex. Is that Ai's mind playing tricks?

In edit: I wrote that not realizing that I had missed the third page of posts. Yes, that must be Ai, assigning the sex roles appropriate to his planet.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 04, 2010, 03:09:09 PM

We have this one nation (don't ask me to remember its name) that is so disorganized it can't fight a war. Then at the very end of the selection, the Prime Minester escapes to the other nation, which seems so overorganized, that they immediately fuss about which pigeonhole he belongs into. (I wonmder if this is a takeoff on the Soviet Union as it was seen in 1960).

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 04, 2010, 03:39:48 PM

I have no doubt at all that Orgoreyn represents the Soviet Union of the 1960s. As the story progresses it is unmistakable; I got the feeling of "this is where I came in" and would likely have stopped reading if not for the discussion. I must say that Le Guin's other books are far more intelligible and I like them better.

I also think the dual sexuality of the people of Winter or Gethen is a device for commenting on the prevailing attitudes toward women in the 1960s. The people are plainly mammals; I cannot see any reason why people from human origins would develop into beings that could assume either sexual role. I don't know if the book assumes the sowing of the planets with human colonies or not, but Winterians seem all to human in other ways.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: fairanna on October 04, 2010, 06:03:46 PM

I am nearly finished with the 6th chapter ..and enjoying the authors writing..she has a very creative mind >>I will have to read another one so I can compare....she writes as a reporter might ..using "real" places and people to tell us about...and I suspect at the time she is writing they are "real" to her.. I have written a number of short stories ..based on a small sentence in a newspaper or what some one has said I can tell when I am writing the places and people are "real" to me ....I feel like I am reporting what "I know to be true" although it is totally false and the efforts of my imagination. When you have that kind of mind it can just take you anywhere..and thank goodness for when I read the stories I AM THERE ..so I will press on and see where the author takes us and how she sees the end...and it is GREAT to read what others are "seeing" through the authors mind....dreary day here c l o u d y and r a i n y BLAH take care all.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 04, 2010, 08:23:17 PM

Yes, JoanK, it's definitely a takeoff on the Soviet Union, and as you point out, ursamajor, it gets more and more obvious later. This is somewhat dated, but we'll come to some issues that are still relevant.

Something I wonder: if Orgoreyn represents the Soviet union, what does Karhide represent? Is it supposed to be the US? It doesn't much look like it. Or is it just supposed to be a contrast?

Anna, I'm glad you are enjoying Le Guin's writing skills, which you appreciate as a writer, and especially glad to share something I care about with you. As your near north neighbor, I'm sharing the same dreary cloudy rainy blah day, but it was a good day anyway.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 04, 2010, 08:30:42 PM

Quote from: ursamajor on October 04, 2010, 03:39:48 PM

I also think the dual sexuality of the people of Winter or Gethen is a device for commenting on the prevailing attitudes toward women in the 1960s. The people are plainly mammals; I cannot see any reason why people from human origins would develop into beings that could assume either sexual role. I don't know if the book assumes the sowing of the planets with human colonies or not, but Winterians seem all to human in other ways.

The issue isn't completely resolved, but we get more information as the book goes on. The Gethenians are definitely human or of human origin.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 05, 2010, 06:16:48 AM

Oh yes,, they are definitely human, but a variant. I am sure everyone is right, but I really believe that she was after contrast with the two nations. They are such complete opposites.. Possibly at the time this was written, she felt that the US and Russia were such opposites.. Cant say that I felt like that.. Maybe at that time in the 60's.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 05, 2010, 02:36:14 PM

In any case, this is far more than a "cold war" drama (although it is "cold"). I must confess to reading ahead.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 06, 2010, 06:20:16 AM

I love the way she makes the weather into a character in the book.. I live in Florida and have such sympathy for Ai..I hate cold and snow.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 06, 2010, 08:58:16 AM

I don't think Ehrenrang is equivalent to the United States at any time in history. It is ruled by a monarch; there were still kings in the 1960s but none with unfettered power. The story contrasts a Soviet type society with societies that existed in Europe at one time.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 06, 2010, 11:02:06 AM

ursamajor, I've been thinking about your question about the sexuality of the people on Winter. "I cannot see any reason why people from human origins would develop into beings that could assume either sexual role."

We do have instances of humans who have gene mutations that cause them to have biological characteristics of both the male and the female sexes. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex. I don't know enough about biology but it might be possible that on Winter those gene differences could have evolved into what Le Guin describes.

Le Guin has called this book a "thought experiment." It seems like a very imaginative way to help people think about gender stereotypes, especially the role of women during the time she wrote the book (late 1960s).

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 06, 2010, 02:55:18 PM

MARCIE: "It seems like a very imaginative way to help people think about gender stereotypes, especially the role of women during the time she wrote the book (late 1960s).

I agree. Having cheated and read ahead, we'll find out more about how sex works on Winter next week.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 07, 2010, 12:39:59 AM

JoanK, yes we definitely have more in store for us about the sexuality of the Gethens.

We seem to be seeing everything in the book through Genly Ai's eyes. As some of you have mentioned, he tells us that the story is all "one." He tells us that he is writing this report, even though "the story is not all mine, nor told by me alone." Throughout the book, we also read myths and read from the journal of Estraven but it sounds like Genly has been the one to put together the whole story. We're learning to see what happens and what it means by following the path Genly took. We're seeing his first impressions and hearing his first judgments of people. We'll learn along the way whether he changes his mind (and whether we change our minds) about anyone. I find it a very interesting way to tell a story, though it is a little confusing at first. I think it's meant to keep us on our toes.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 07, 2010, 06:13:19 AM

I agree that Ai is the storyteller in this.. Confusing at the beginning , but I am reading ahead for next week and it clears up after a bit.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 07, 2010, 08:22:26 AM

There are certainly those individuals who possess both male and female sexual characteristics. Tiresias, Elliot's "old man with wrinkled dugs" is a classical example. Wickipedia's description:

Greek mythology, Tiresias (Greek: Τειρεσίας, also transliterated as Teiresias) was a blind prophet of Thebes, famous for clairvoyance and for being transformed into a woman for seven years

However, it is highly improbable that these individual's would be able to reproduce, let alone alternate between progenitor and gestator. Some insects can do this, though, I think. No biologist am I.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 07, 2010, 08:29:12 AM

Quote from: Steph on October 07, 2010, 06:13:19 AM

I agree that Ai is the storyteller in this.. Confusing at the beginning , but I am reading ahead for next week and it clears up after a bit.

That's good, since we start talking about a new section tomorrow.

Oct. 8-14: Chapters 7-12

Of course, we can still chat about earlier stuff.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 07, 2010, 05:33:37 PM

Put yourself in my place - no book yet (I'm now #1 on the wait list - our library owns two copies) - trying to read your posts and Harold Bloom's always esoteric explanations as to what Le Guin is telling. I will persevere - looking forward to the day when I can read her words myself and then reread your posts for better understanding. It should be much easier than doing it this way.

I have been thinking about the title - and the narrator. Bloom talks much about the sexuality of the characters and I get the sense that the next chapters will go into that.

As to the title, Bloom cites Le Guin's words, which perhaps you have already come across - (If so, can you explain her words to me?)
"Light is the left hand of darkness
and darkness the right hand of light.
Two are one, life and death, lying
together like lovers in kemmer,
like hands joined together,
like the end and the way."

Maybe this is something to be considered at the end of the discussion?

"The Left Hand of Darkness tells a story set in the distant future."

Here's what Le Guin had to say about this:

"I write science fiction, and science fiction isn't about the future. I don't know any more about the future than you do, and very likely, less."

I hear some of you speaking about the narrator - here is what Bloom writes...

"The narrator here is neither Ai nor Le Guin but a field investigatorof the Ekumen, wryly cataloging a weird matter."

I hope some of this helps or is of interest. You are so lucky to have the book in hand - I hope you appreciate it! :D

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 07, 2010, 07:54:45 PM

Goodness, JoanP, the way you are doing it must seem pretty surreal, but I'm glad you are looking over our shoulders. It'll be interesting to see how the book seems to you when you finally get it. Even if you've figured out the plot by then, you will enjoy her language.

You raise a lot of interesting points.

"I write science fiction, and science fiction isn't about the future. I don't know any more about the future than you do, and very likely, less."--Le Guin. I recently attended a lecture by Sci-Fi writer William Gibson (inventor of cyberpunk). He said that genres are narrative strategies, nothing more, and the best genre writers have their feet planted elsewhere. Indeed, she's using imagined futures as a tool to say what she wants.

The title quote is from one of the Getheren religions, and we'll meet it in chapter 16 (p. 233 in my book). I think we've already come across some of the light and darkness. To me the religions are the most difficult aspect of the book, though rereading helps some. Fortunately, all you need to enjoy the book is to catch the mood a bit.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 08, 2010, 06:13:44 AM

Its the 8th,, tra la.. I am a bit more confused at this point.. This is a strange country indeed and the banquet involved so many counterplots.. Sigh.. I had hoped for none of that, but I remembered there was. Ai seems to be content with what is happening.. It is funny, but I just dont get that someone else entirely is writing as we go along.. I will take Blooms word for it, but it feels wrong at this point.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 08, 2010, 07:41:35 AM

Quote from: Steph on October 08, 2010, 06:13:44 AM

It is funny, but I just dont get that someone else entirely is writing as we go along.. I will take Blooms word for it, but it feels wrong at this point.

I think it is wrong. That's Ai's voice.

The story is assembled from several kinds of documents. It opens with something clearly labeled as Ai's report, taken from the archives of Hain, dated 1490-97. His remaining chapters are not labeled, could be more of the report. Chapter 7 is field notes of an Investigator, dated 1448. Ai would have had access to these, and they would also be in the archives. Estraven's chapters seem to be at least mostly taken from his journal. You don't know who is telling the myths and tales--they could have been collected by an Investigator, or Ai, or someone later.

I had assumed that the whole thing had been assembled by Ai, either as his report or for his own purposes. He says that it is told in many voices, which is consistent with this. But as you point out, JoanP, it could have been put together by a later investigator or historian. In that case, he would be the narrator in the sense that he shaped the story by his choice of material and editing. But it is not his voice that we hear.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 08, 2010, 12:02:05 PM

I can't wait for my book! I'm going to get in trouble relying on Bloom...

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 08, 2010, 02:42:27 PM

JOANP: you're amazing! Without reading the book, you are adding so much to our discussion.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: mrssherlock on October 08, 2010, 07:06:08 PM

I'm catching up on the posts. will be back tomorrow.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 08, 2010, 11:47:39 PM

JoanK, you're right that JoanP is adding much to our discussion and good ideas to debate...while still waiting for the book!

PatH, I too think that we're hearing from Genly Ai. He knows he doesn't understand this alien culture very well but, as the story progresses, he learns how much he doesn't know/misunderstands. We're learning from his experiences, through his point of view.

Jackie, I'm glad you're with us.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 09, 2010, 06:20:36 AM

I gather from small clues that Ai is trying to show the men that if he is gone or lost or dead, that they will simply send another investigator.. I assume this is a built in safeguard for the envoys.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 09, 2010, 02:35:03 PM

"On Winter...One is respected and judged only as a human being. It is an appalling experience."

I wonder if we would feel that way. We would learn in a hurry how much of the way others perceive us is bound up with our gender.

And we would also learn how much of how we perceive ourselves is bound up with gender. That seems to be the issue for Ai, who sees himself as a MAN. It's easy for me, as a woman, to see and sneer at that, but how much of who I am is bound up with being a woman?

I've never been a "girly girl". Having spent years as a woman in a man's field, meeting discrimination at all levels, my first reaction would be relief. But as a mother, I would feel differently. Would there be a differance on Winter between those who had borne children and those who had sired them? Would the sires resent the apparent lack of a "father's" role on Winter? A lot of questions here.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: mrssherlock on October 09, 2010, 08:03:33 PM

Well, at least they have a sense of family in Ehrenrang. Look what happens to the children in Orgoreyn, where they are raised by the bureaucracy. It's amusing to see Genly unconsciously ascribe gender to those he meets, speaking of someone's "soft" features. In a class on Sex Roles, I learned that when two men live together, unless one of them is named Felix Unger, no one picks up after another, only himself. What a novelty not to feel compelled to neaten, straighten, put away.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 09, 2010, 10:08:58 PM

Quote from: mrssherlock on October 09, 2010, 08:03:33 PM

It's amusing to see Genly unconsciously ascribe gender to those he meets, speaking of someone's "soft" features.

Yes, that's one of Le Guin's very good strategies, and it often plays out to be funny.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 09, 2010, 10:24:35 PM

Quote from: mrssherlock on October 09, 2010, 08:03:33 PM

In a class on Sex Roles, I learned that when two men live together, unless one of them is named Felix Unger, no one picks up after another, only himself.

I've often felt that one possible advantage of single sex marriages or companionships might be that tasks could be assigned totally on the basis of who was better at the job, or liked it better, rather than on notions of "women's work" or "men's work". Did your class go into that? Does it actually work that way?

In my marriage, there were only two jobs that were totally Bob's and not mine: dealing with mousetraps, and making bread.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 10, 2010, 12:27:01 AM

Genly does seem to be quite sexist, not in an aggressive way, but he seems to have a view of women as inferior in number of ways...typical of the time in which the book was written. I believe that Le Guin wrote him that way purposely to highlight his difficulties in accepting the genderless Gethen society. Many of his thoughts about the "womanish" qualities of some of the individuals on Gethen are definitely not "PC"!

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 10, 2010, 06:49:25 AM

(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lefthand/lefthandcvr.jpg)

Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)

I think that as we age, we become more neutral in sexual roles. Just think of the number of people that are ambiguous to look at. I know for us after retirement, we divided up household chorese quite differently picking what we did well or liked.. My husband loved vacuuming,, doing the clothes, loading and unloading the dishwasher. He was very tidy always and picked up after himself. I was big on cooking.. ironing if it needed it ( we sent out the dress shirts to dry cleaner) picking up and dusting ( I hate dusty)..He did the outside male chores though and that is what is still driving me nuts to figure out..

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: mrssherlock on October 10, 2010, 10:19:25 AM

Perhaps it is another example of the times but Le Guin is strangely silent on homosexuality. Or can it be that that is no longer an issue in Genly Ai's universe? Lois McMasters Bujold has an entire planet without women in Ethan of Athos where reproduction is a variant of cloning as I recall.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 10, 2010, 01:00:08 PM

With every person able to assume the role of either sex, homosexuality could not be an issue. Interestingly enough, there is no taboo against incest either. That sort of flies in the face of reason; you can get rid of highly inbred animals when genetic flaws manifest themselves but human genetic errors can't be eliminated so easily.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 11, 2010, 06:15:15 AM

Aha and now I am reading that the Kemmering can be used as a weapon. Did wonder about that. Amazing..

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 11, 2010, 10:08:36 AM

It seems to me that the Gethenian single-sex system gives them just as much grief and torment as ours. Not much is forbidden, but half the stories are tragedies of kemmerings, forbidden or gone wrong.

This happened to Estraven: he secretly swore kemmering with his brother (not allowed) so that when, after the brother's death, he swore kemmering with Ashe, they both knew it was false (not allowed a second kemmering). After seven years, Ashe left and became a Celibate Foreteller. They both seemed pretty bitter about it all when Ashe talked to the just-banished Estraven.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: mrssherlock on October 11, 2010, 04:04:40 PM

Good point, Pat. The "one kemmering only" rule caused as much heartache as the Roman Catholic prohibition against divorce. Nature's imperative that we reproduce is extremely powerful.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 12, 2010, 06:36:17 AM

The book grows darker. And very very much like the old Soviet. I had hoped not, but remembered when I was reading last night that originally I had not liked that part of it.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 12, 2010, 09:37:35 AM

Maybe I missed something. I was under the impression that the "one kemmering only" was an unusual committment, and that people had casual relationships and even children much of the time without any kind of long term committment. I got the impression that there would have been a sexual encounter between Ai and Estraven if they had been physically equipped for one. The whole novel is so murky I didn't know what was going on half the time.

Something I did notice is that the tale of the long trek across the frozen mountains and plains reminded me of Ayn Rand's book We the Living. In case you haven't come across the book it is her first and rather poorly written - she didn't have the command of the English language that she developed later. It is primarily interesting in that it shows the reader where her philosopy as displayed in Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged came from. She has influenced too many of the movers and shakers in Washington (including Alan Greenspan). Her belief that altruism is evil is pretty scary, at least to me.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 12, 2010, 10:02:50 AM

Ursamajor, you're right that people mostly had casual relationships, and produced their children that way. They only swore kemmering if there was an emotional attachment strong enough for them to want to commit for life. There would be a problem if your partner then died and you fell in love with someone else, since you couldn't swear kemmering again.

We won't get onto the ice until the next section. When we do, I hope you'll tell us more about Rand's book.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: fairanna on October 12, 2010, 11:25:40 AM

Well I have read further and found the whole bit about being able to be male or female DULL and boring ..It seems so far-fetched and undesirable If there is an explanation about what happens to the children I havent read it yet ...but that really troubles me...The mother can at one time be the father and vice versa How do children survive and the bit about them changing --the children and incest is allowed? WOW I thought when I started reading this it would be an adventure but now I am not sure I even wish to continue ...I will because I am curious what other ideas she has and if when I am finished I will be glad I read it ..right now this bit offends me...anna

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: mrssherlock on October 12, 2010, 11:57:03 AM

anna: Think of this book as an anthropological study where social practices are simply recorded and try not to judge. I believe that Ai mentions early on that he believes this planet was an experiment and the biology was engineered. I can see a cadre of psychologists saying "What would be the result of ...". They are victims of their hormones, not masters. A robust argument against gene manipulation in these days of controversial research with embryonic stem cells.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 12, 2010, 05:49:00 PM

I too was bothered by not knowing how the children were cared for and how families worked. None of the characters we meet live in families. There are mentions of "hearths", but we don't see one.

I guess Leguin is not a sociologist. She is interested in the psychological implications of androginous people, but hasn't worked out the social implications.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Frybabe on October 12, 2010, 06:04:30 PM

There is a brief mention of how children are raised in Orgoreyn. Otherwise, I don't remember seeing much mention of children or family life. If they don't normally form permanent bonds, then I guess there isn't much of a family life to mention.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: mrssherlock on October 12, 2010, 06:08:34 PM

Didn't I read that children stayed with the "mother"?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 12, 2010, 08:36:11 PM

Yes, Jackie, it says somewhere that children are reared in the "clanhearth" of the person who bore them--that's in Karhide. It also says that about a fifth of the populace spends its time in childcare or childrearing, so they are well looked after. It probably comes out later, but we see some signs of people feeling a family identity.

A lot of sci-fi novels kind of skirt over this problem because they want to concentrate on their characters doing other things.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 12, 2010, 09:07:12 PM

Regarding incest, I think that the following information is given " Incest is permitted, with various restrictions, between siblings, even the full siblings of a vowed-kemmering pair. Siblings are not however allowed to vow kemmering, nor keep kemmering after the birth of a child to one of the pair. Incest between generations is strictly forbidden (in Karhide/Oregoreyn; but is said to be permitted among the tribesmen of Perunter, the Antarctic Continent. This may be slander.)"

Of course, something might be forbidden but still practiced by some.

Anna, I think that your finding some of the sexual practices offensive is similar to how Genly Ai feels. He may not be offended exactly but he seems very uncomfortable with the gender switching of the people on Gethen.

I'm wondering if the child rearing practices with the children being raised in the clan-hearth of the mother might be similar to those of a Jewish kibbutz or the experience might be similar to being raised by a single parent on Earth.

Many children of wealthy families used to be (still are?) sent to boarding schools when fairly young. Some children spend all day in day care. I don't know if the child-rearing environment on Gethen would be less advantageous for children.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: mrssherlock on October 12, 2010, 09:18:00 PM

at one time in my career i worked in an organization which supported various activities for the gay, lesbian, bisexual aqnd trans-gender population of my county. Being around male and female homosexuals was pretty straightforward but the trans-gender folks were not as easy to interact with. I could never feel that comfortable acceptance of one another as is true of two women sharing the mirror in a rest room, for instance. Partly it was the secrecy maintained, no one could tell and it was only after I had known some of them for several months that I sensed it. This may be similar to Genly Ai' feelings, never being sure if the other is male or female.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 13, 2010, 06:19:08 AM

Since they seem to be able to be one or the other and dont choose.. How can the female at the time of birth raise a child?? I am confused about that aspect of this.. Also of course in the casual relationships. I would gather you could be the male of a coming child and also a female bearing a child at the same time.. Uncomfortable to imagine.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 13, 2010, 10:55:09 AM

Yes, it seems confusing and messy. I think the parent who bears the child could raise it even if from time to time they switched sex, but it doesn't seem to be done exactly that way--more like being raised by the parent's extended family.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 13, 2010, 10:59:45 AM

The situation with the genderless Gethens who assume a gender each month really is quite imaginative. The expression of that kind of imagination is one of the reasons I enjoy science fiction.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: mrssherlock on October 13, 2010, 02:55:46 PM

Marcie: Hear! Hear! Sometimes the application of logic destroys the fantasy.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 14, 2010, 06:15:19 AM

I love fantasy , but in this case, I would guess that I simply do not deal with the raising of the young in a genderless situation.. Plus the more I read, the closer to the Soviet Union the book is becoming. I guess I had forgotten that .

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 14, 2010, 09:12:43 AM

I also equated the rearing of children with the Israeli kibbutzem. I wonder if these still exist in Israel. I once read about a study put together to prove that children so reared were less well adjusted than those reared in families; the opposite proved to be true.

Our culture is so permeated with gender distinctions it is hard to imagine one like the Gethens. We have separate words for the male and female of most species: mare/stallion, sow/boar, cow/bull and so on. Also separate pronouns for the genders. I believe this to be true in most languages. If anyone reads one of the Asian languages I would like to know if it is true.in that part of the world also.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 14, 2010, 01:40:23 PM

Quote from: Steph on October 14, 2010, 06:15:19 AM

...the more I read, the closer to the Soviet Union the book is becoming. I guess I had forgotten that .

I had forgotten that too. It dominates things more than I remember. Or maybe, since that time is so far in the past now, it's more jarring.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 14, 2010, 01:44:13 PM

Marcie and ursamajor, your comparison to kibbutzim makes the child rearing make more sense. JoanK, any comments on this?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 14, 2010, 02:31:45 PM

The childrearing in the second country certainly sounds close to that in kibbutzim, with an important difference: on kibbutzim there is a period each day that the children spend with their biological parents, and no other activities are allowed to interupt it. A friend in Israel who had left the kibbutz complained to me that now that her children were living with them, she saw much less of them than she had on the kibbutz.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 14, 2010, 09:38:30 PM

I appreciate the good discussion that Ursula Le Guin's idea about a different kind of gendered society has generated here.

I'm also interested in the idea of Shifgrethor that she introduces and how it stands in the way of communication between Genly Ai and Estraven when Estraven is trying to allow for Genly to keep his pride by not seeming to give him advice (not realizing that he actually wants it).

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Frybabe on October 14, 2010, 11:28:57 PM

I am not sure what Shifgrethor means or is. Somewhere later in the book if makes a reference to it being kind of like a shadow which really didn't help. I expect it has something to do with an ethical value system. Or maybe a form of moral and ethical conduct (manners?) that strictly adhered to keeps people from getting into fights, etc. It kind of reminds me of the strict system of formal behavior the Japanese had (still have?) when greeting others. Anybody got a good definition of it?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 15, 2010, 01:33:59 AM

Frybabe, I think that your partial analogy with the Japanese code of conduct works for me. I think of it as a sort of pride/face saving that extends to how one treats others as well as protects ones own sense of self respect. I got a feeling for the word while reading the book but not a definition.

I too could use help with the "shadow" reference.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 15, 2010, 06:16:59 AM

However it is used, Ai does not understand it at all.. Does anyone know if the animals are male and female on the world?? I dont remember seeing anything about it.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 15, 2010, 06:29:42 AM

Quote from: Steph on October 15, 2010, 06:16:59 AM

Does anyone know if the animals are male and female on the world?? I dont remember seeing anything about it.

There are a couple of brief references. Yes, the animals are permanently male or female, as here. Perhaps the idea that it's like "lower" animals increases the disgust the Gethenians feel towards Ai's sexuality.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 15, 2010, 07:01:32 AM

For me, shifgrethor is one of the more difficult concepts of the book. I agree with Frybabe and Marcie;it seems to be a sort of combination of a system of honor and a code of face-saving behavior. I read somewhere that the word is derived from a Gethenian word for "shadow", which doesn't help much. Elsewhere, a man's name is referred to as his "shadow". Maybe shifgrethor is the shadow you cast in the world.

For anyone who has read Lee and Miller's "Liaden" series, it reminds me a bit of a solemn sort of "melanti'i".

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 15, 2010, 08:15:29 PM

"But I really don't see how anyone could put much stock in victory or glory after he had spent a winter on Winter, and seen the face of the ice."

(The last sentence of chapter 7, from the report of an Investigator.)

This is where we are heading now. Things change for our protagonists. After a chapter of human brutality or indifference, we are out in the inhuman, unforgiving, natural world, and will, indeed, start to see the face of the ice.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Frybabe on October 15, 2010, 11:33:45 PM

I liked the imagery of the ice and volcanoes, and the absolute brutality of the weather. Nevertheless, I was impatient for them to get across the ice fields and back to civilization. The Eskimos have many names for snow (I think around 100) and ice so do the Gethenians.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 16, 2010, 05:55:53 AM

This part of the book is brutal as to weather.. Not much fun..

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 16, 2010, 07:56:07 AM

The technology is interesting, though. Wouldn't you like to have a patent on the little stove they used for everything from warmth to cooking?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 16, 2010, 08:21:47 AM

I'd love to know how the stove's "bionic powered" battery works. It seems improbable.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 16, 2010, 12:51:13 PM

I just looked at the questions, and they really make me think. Can you imagine yourself as Ai, having abandoned everything for this one mission, and facing possible failure? What kind of man is he?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 16, 2010, 01:27:28 PM

I think that Le Guin was able to create the terrible Winter weather and landscape conditions very well. I could see how their situation ranged from hypnotic to frightening.

JoanK, Ai seems like someone who was mostly able to put his mission ahead of his personal feelings. He knew it was possible that someone else was going to see the mission fulfilled and that he might be only part of the first steps. When he asked the Foretellers if Winter would join the federation he didn't ask if it would happen in his lifetime.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 16, 2010, 05:06:58 PM

Right, Marcie, Ai knew Winter would join the Ekumen within 5 years (unless the prediction has a quibble) but he didn't know if he would be responsible, or even alive. At the moment, out on the ice, his chances don't look that great.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 16, 2010, 05:07:19 PM

(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lefthand/lefthandcvr.jpg)

Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 17, 2010, 01:16:02 AM

Yes, Pat, I think that the ice journey is suspenseful. It's not clear what will happen to either of them or both.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 17, 2010, 06:23:51 AM

I guess I have assumed that Ai was trained to believe that you might fail, but there would eventually be a success,, just not you. I suspect being the very first envoy was an honor.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 17, 2010, 12:54:19 PM

Happy day! Library informed me the day before yesterday that my copy of the book was in - I picked it up and have read the first 6 chapters. I know you're not impressed, as I'm still way behind. But I am determined to catch up with you, without boring you with observations on those early chapters. Well, how about just a few that I'm not sure were mentioned here. (I only read your posts from the first week...)

* Le Guin's subtle humor - I'm really "digging" it~ and looking for instances of it now that I've started to notice it. "Genry," Ai tells the Orgota...(because he knows Karhiders can't pronounce the "l"...)
"My landlady, a voluble man" - do such phrases stop you in your reading?
"Ai's beard had been depilated" before coming to Karhide - so he wouldn't appear manly...he has to look male or female?
Ai has covered his manly characteristics beneath heavy clothing...

* Ai sounds like an ambassador from the West to me - from the US? Thinking he can bring peace to warring factions all over the world - is this the naivete of the West?
* Ai doesn't seem to trust or like Estraven because he appears to be a man, yet he had womanly characteristics. Is it this incongruity that makes Ai distrustful?
*Patriotism is born out of fear...isn't this true to a an extent? I'm thinking of the period following attack- Pearl Harbor, 9-11 - never is patriotism more on display.
*Do you believe in telepathic communication? (Not sure, but I want very much to believe that it is possible. Don't really believe in foretelling though.)
*Foretellers - I think Ai asked the right question because it was "answerable" in a yes or no form. He asked the right question because it was the one thing that he really needed to know.
Faxe, the Weaver, with the beautiful face - "hard and delicate" delivered the answer to the question. He/She is pictured on the book's cover, no?

So Estraven has made it to Orgoreyn and learns from two of the Commensals that Ai has requested permission to enter the land. The two will meet again.

JoanP - in hot pursuit of my cohort...

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 17, 2010, 01:38:24 PM

JoanP, I'm so glad your book came--I hope it isn't too overwhelming to read it fast.

Indeed, there's a lot of understated humor in the book, including some of Ai's observations about gender.

Some that I underlined (these are after chapter 6, but don't give anything away):

"...I think we shall have trouble learning how to lie, having for so long practiced the art of going round and round the truth without ever lying about it, or reaching it either."

Describing a politician: "His type is panhuman. I had met him on Earth, and on Hain, and on Ollul. I expect to meet him in Hell."

"...like most economic explanations it seems, under certain lights, to omit the main point."

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 17, 2010, 01:41:35 PM

Quote from: JoanP on October 17, 2010, 12:54:19 PM

* Ai doesn't seem to trust or like Estraven because he appears to be a man, yet he had womanly characteristics. Is it this incongruity that makes Ai distrustful?

Clever observation. Remember it.

You won't bore anyone with obsevations on the early chapters. The more thoughts the merrier.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: mrssherlock on October 17, 2010, 03:27:50 PM

Winter camping. Does Yosemite at Thanksgiving count? I loved it but when the kids brought a piece of ice from the creek which was nearly 0.5 inches thick, everyone else voted to go home. That heater/cooker/light sounds miraculous. Also their tent, our typical camping tent was like mosquito netting in comparison.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 17, 2010, 10:46:31 PM

Steph, yes, Ai puts the mission of the Ekumen ahead of his personal ambitions.

Yikes, Jackie, I don't think I'd do well camping in the ice.

JoanP, hooray! I'm glad you have the book. Thanks for sharing some of those humorous passages.

It's interesting that you say "Ai doesn't seem to trust or like Estraven because he appears to be a man, yet he had womanly characteristics." He appears to be judging the population on earth-human criteria. It seems like a close to insurmountable obstacle for him to accept the non-gender condition of the people of Winter. Le Guin seems to be raising a question of whether identifying...and differentiating between... male and female colors our basic relationships with everyone.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 18, 2010, 06:01:33 AM

I am beginning to see that LeGuin did have in mind challenging our preconceptions of gender. I have been trying to see what my built in predujudices are.. They are certainly there.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: fairanna on October 18, 2010, 12:59:14 PM

Well I keep "reading" but I feel like I am reading a language never heard of and I find it a problem to try and recall what the heck the words refer to.......I know I have read in the past science fiction and enjoyed .while the stories then were about a "out of this world " place the author used words I understood and didnt have to keep wondering WHAT IN THE HECK does this mean.
I find it tedious myself and rather dislike the whole concept....Hope November brings a book I wont have to analyse everything but can understand where it is coming from....I have Nicholas Sparks new book ---Safe Haven ...and it is in ENGLISH and my poor head wont have to ask WHAT DOES THIS MEAN>>>you are a brave lot. anna

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 19, 2010, 04:09:45 PM

"Le Guin seems to be raising a question of whether identifying...and differentiating between... male and female colors our basic relationships with everyone."

Do we think she's right? I keep going back to my days in the fifties as a woman in a man's field. Every time I met a new collegue, it seemed to me I had to work hard to get him to see me as a collegue, not as a woman. I didn't dare do anything "feminine". (It only worked to a limited extent: in the first place I worked, the women were payed half of what the men were, and were not accorded professional status, even though we all did the same work).

By the time I retired, things were much easier for women. They can be "feminine" and professional too. But I'm sure there is still some sex overtones in all our relationships. Have you ever met or seen someone of whose sex you are not sure? I have, and it made me deeply uneasy, even in a context where sex should have been irrelevant.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 19, 2010, 11:19:08 PM

Nearly caught up - will start chapter 13 tomorrow. I've enjoyed your comments - noticing and thinking about things that just flew by me in my solitary reading. That's the value of these group discussions, don't you think?

JoanK - I know what you mean about feeling uneasy in the presence of those I can't identify with - just not comfortable with those who are overzealous - one way or another, who try to convince me that their views are the only ones.

"shifgrethor," - why can't I remember the meaning of this word every time I see it? I'm assuming Le Guin coined the word - but can't tell what she had in mind when she did. "shif"? grethor? I come up empty when trying to "translate"...

I've made a note to myself that I keep referring to whenever I see it - "shifgrethor - a way to save face by avoiding confrontation"

Genly Ai is good at shifgrethor, don't you think? His greatest asset seems to be patience. How do you think this is going to work out? Is Ai more apt to convince a mad monarch to joint the Ekumen than go against the bureaucracy of the Orgota? I think I'd put my money on the Karhide king...Seriously, do you think Genly Ai will succeed in his mission?

About the children of the kemmering - (the idea of public kemmering houses got my attention at first - but now I'm used to it - Where else does one "kemmer"?
The children seem to be the primary focus for all those between 17 and 35...but is this system working? Somewhere in these chapters, I remember reading that the children are running wild. Maybe that's not a bad thing here?

Reading about the stages of kemmering - the whole cycle, it is understandable why the Orgota regard Genly Ai with awe - he is in a permanent state of kemmer!

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 20, 2010, 06:03:29 AM

But we consider their inability to have sex as they want as something the animals contend with.. The cold is a living thing in the book.. Since I hate cold, I know what they mean.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 20, 2010, 08:24:37 AM

JoanP--great, you're closing in on us.

Ai may be very patient, but he still finds dealing with shifgrethor trying. At one point when he is in Orgoreyn, he says: "Manners here were certainly differentfrom manners in Karhide; there, the fuss he was making would either have degraded his own shifgrethor or insulted mine; I wasn't sure which, but it would have done one or the other--practically everything did."

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 20, 2010, 08:33:25 AM

Quote from: JoanK on October 19, 2010, 04:09:45 PM

Have you ever met or seen someone of whose sex you are not sure? I have, and it made me deeply uneasy, even in a context where sex should have been irrelevant.

Interesting--I've never had that experience. So you're well primed to understand Ai's uneasiness toward the Gethenians.

I've sometimes been in a situation where I felt someone was interacting with me purely as a person, with no recognition of gender, and I found it very refreshing, but I was probably kidding myself about the nature of the exchange.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 20, 2010, 08:35:18 AM

Quote from: Steph on October 20, 2010, 06:03:29 AM

The cold is a living thing in the book.

It certainly is--and a dominant and important one.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 20, 2010, 08:42:02 AM

I have struggled with the definition of shifgrethor also. It seems to be sort of a combination of "honor " in the old-fashioned duel fighting sense and a refined system of each trying to out manoever the other, It made me very uncomfortable, as does interacting with people who are extremely manipulative.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 20, 2010, 08:48:48 AM

Me too, ursamajor, and I'd hate dealing with a system where every tiny nuance is important.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 20, 2010, 10:55:56 AM

I think it's an interesting point whether the formality of the shifgrether is more freeing or less freeing to interactions. It isn't an exact parallel, but I'm reminded of some people who say that many young people today have no manners or respect for others. They don't know or use the "code" that older generations grew up with--rules/ways of civil interaction with others that could be counted on to smooth the way.

Ai doesn't know the shifgrethor rules and has no feeling for them. There is a lot of miscommunication due to that.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 20, 2010, 11:08:08 AM

Joan, I'm not sure if Ai's permanent kemmer state is regarded with positive feelings. I think it's considered a perversion and distasteful much as Ai is fundamentally shocked by the Gethens. He writes early on in his report: "Cultural shock was nothing much compared to the biological shock I suffered as a human male among human beings who were, five-sixths of the time, hermaphroditic neuters”

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 20, 2010, 11:34:22 AM

Since Steph brought us animals - are there any here ? - there must be - wasn't there mention of meat and animal products? - I've been thinking of the animials' physiological make-up. If they are in permanent kemmer, then it stands to reason that Ai would be regarded as a lower being on a par with animals...

Remember when Gaum came on to Ai, trying to seduce him as a woman? Ai felt himself responding... Poor Ai - in permanent state of kemmer, the object of everyone's attention, male or female - at all times! Did you understand that Gaum was trying to become impregnated with Ai's child?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 20, 2010, 12:42:11 PM

It's confusing to remember who is the narrator at any one moment, but it was Estraven that Gaum tried to seduce. Gaum thought Estraven was a Karhidish agent, not simply an exile, and was trying to buy him out or get information from him. I doubt Gaum intended to have a child, he probably used a contraceptive.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 20, 2010, 12:46:52 PM

You're right, JoanP, animals are mentioned occasionally, and they have the sexuality we are used to, and that probably adds to the disgust the Gethenians feel for Ai. Since kemmer is so overwhelming for them they probably also have trouble understanding how Ai can function normally in his permanent state.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 21, 2010, 06:07:38 AM

Most animals stay in one sex, although there are some rare insects that dont.. But they cannot become pregnant except at stated times.. Whereas this is more like the people..
By the way on sex. it does seem to me that in a lot of cases, the older we get the more ambiguous some people get. I know I have seen people and know several that could be either male or female.. They simply do not seem to be strongly one of the other.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 21, 2010, 08:10:53 AM

A comment I heard a long time ago is

"If absolute male is A and absolute female is Z, there will be some people who fall around M or N."

I remember I was in a sex education class (for my sins) when I returned to college. An unmarried middle aged woman commented that, after all, sex was such a small part of life. I thought of my five children and thought it all depends on your point of view.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 21, 2010, 01:15:53 PM

Estraven and Ai have a particularly interesting conversation almost at the end of chapter 16. It starts with Estraven quoting a poem, the origin of the book's title.

Light is the left hand of darkness
and darkness the right hand of light.
Two are one....
like the end and the way.

They talk about wholeness and dualism, Estraven insisting that his people aren't just obsessed with wholeness, but are also dualists, Ai seeing "Yes, it does, after all, go even wider than sex."

This dualism and oneness seem to be a main theme of the Handdrata religion, and seem to be based on Taoist thought, which runs through a lot of Le Guin's work. I'm pretty ignorant of Taoism; are there any experts out there who can help?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 21, 2010, 01:21:58 PM

The conversation continues with Estraven asking Ai what the other human sex is like. The answer is amusing; Ai flounders around for a while, and finally says "I can't tell you what women are like...."In a sense, women are more alien to me than you are. With you I share one sex anyhow...."

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 21, 2010, 03:01:09 PM

PatH"This dualism and oneness seem to be a main theme of the Handdrata religion, and seem to be based on Taoist thought, which runs through a lot of Le Guin's work."

I don't know anything about Taoism, either. But I have heard a discussion of the Taoist (?) symbol, the black and white circle with ying and yang (the feminine and masculine principle) curving into each other, with a dot of yang in the ying and vica-versa. It is supposed to show something about the relationship of dualism and oneness.

One meditation technique is to listen for the quietness within noise, or the stillness within motion.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 21, 2010, 03:05:09 PM

Here is the symbol that I was trying to describe:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.indianeye.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/yin_yang.png&imgrefurl=http://www.indianeye.org/2008/01/17/yin-yang-and-the-philosophy-of-the-sexes/&h=300&w=300&sz=19&tbnid=6WFfwETVdBiHbM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyang%2Band%2Byin&zoom=1&q=yang+and+yin&hl=en&usg=__nB6ryZx3m935fd4z09bAR1FXzPM=&sa=X&ei=HY7ATPbwIoiosAP7nbydDA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwBA (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.indianeye.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/yin_yang.png&imgrefurl=http://www.indianeye.org/2008/01/17/yin-yang-and-the-philosophy-of-the-sexes/&h=300&w=300&sz=19&tbnid=6WFfwETVdBiHbM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyang%2Band%2Byin&zoom=1&q=yang+and+yin&hl=en&usg=__nB6ryZx3m935fd4z09bAR1FXzPM=&sa=X&ei=HY7ATPbwIoiosAP7nbydDA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwBA)

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 21, 2010, 03:14:45 PM

The Wikapedia article on it is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang)

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 21, 2010, 05:10:49 PM

I think the thing I will take away from this book most vividly is the winter landscape.

Winter storm
In a world of one color
The sound of wind.
Basho

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 21, 2010, 07:16:04 PM

JoanK, you just summed up practically a whole chapter in 14 syllables.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 21, 2010, 08:56:12 PM

JoanK, I think that Le Guin would appreciate your using a haiku (by my favorite haiku poet!) to comment on the winter references. It seems to be in keeping with the Taoist principles that permeate her writing. The haiku could be a more wholistic approach to understanding and appreciating the Winter landscape that she has created in this book.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 22, 2010, 06:05:00 AM

Oh JoanK.. the haiku does so describe winter to me.. Thanks.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 22, 2010, 07:05:03 AM

The end of the road--now we'll come down from the ice and find out the answers to our questions, or as many answers as we're going to get, and speculate on what we don't know.

Now we can talk about the rest of the book. Has everyone finished it? If you haven't, you might want to be careful reading comments until you do to avoid spoilers.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 22, 2010, 09:09:36 PM

I guess everyone is still reading. Well, no spoilers in this post.

Chapter 18 is remarkable. JoanK's haiku sums up a lot of it. The theme of the center comes up again. "We are inside, the two of us, in shelter, at rest, at the center of all things." Ai finds out what his own center is. Alone on the ice, dependent on each other for survival, the two at last come to understand each other.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 22, 2010, 09:31:02 PM

Quote from: JoanK on October 21, 2010, 03:05:09 PM

Here is the symbol that I was trying to describe:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.indianeye.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/yin_yang.png&imgrefurl=http://www.indianeye.org/2008/01/17/yin-yang-and-the-philosophy-of-the-sexes/&h=300&w=300&sz=19&tbnid=6WFfwETVdBiHbM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyang%2Band%2Byin&zoom=1&q=yang+and+yin&hl=en&usg=__nB6ryZx3m935fd4z09bAR1FXzPM=&sa=X&ei=HY7ATPbwIoiosAP7nbydDA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwBA (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.indianeye.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/yin_yang.png&imgrefurl=http://www.indianeye.org/2008/01/17/yin-yang-and-the-philosophy-of-the-sexes/&h=300&w=300&sz=19&tbnid=6WFfwETVdBiHbM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyang%2Band%2Byin&zoom=1&q=yang+and+yin&hl=en&usg=__nB6ryZx3m935fd4z09bAR1FXzPM=&sa=X&ei=HY7ATPbwIoiosAP7nbydDA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwBA)

JoanK, the ying/yan symbol that you linked in your post is the one that Ai shows to Estraven when, during the grueling journey, he finally comes to see Estraven as he/she is. I'm thinking that the state of acceptance of "both sides/opposites" as the whole is also linked to shifgrether. There seems to be an aspect to shifgrether that is the avoidance of imposing ones views on another person.

PatH, I think you are right about Ai coming to understand something about "centering" (the line between the Ying and the Yan). The Taoist influence seems to be that a person has to see the whole of things, people, the world...for himself and accept without preconceived ideas.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 23, 2010, 12:03:22 PM

Weren't you beginning to wonder what would happen when Estraven went into kemmer - when they planned to be together for 70-80 days, the two of them enclosed in that little two-man tent? Only when Ai and Estraven recognized the sexual tension for what it was, they were able to come to an understanding of one another Once they talked about it in the open - Ai is finally able to see Estraven as both a man and a woman for the first time. I love the (http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/images/yingyang2.gif) symbolism.
Understanding this, Ai can now accept him as a friend. They would have come together as aliens had it been otherwise, Le Guin writes.

There is something about Ai that reminds me of the coming of the Redeemer sent to save the world. Did anyone else sense this? Everyone urges him to call down the Star Ship - both Obsle and the Orgota - and Estraven and the Karhides. They need PROOF that he is who he says he is. Taking it further, the Redeemer did not show the PROOF until his death. I have no idea how this is going to end for AI. Do you feel that he summon the Ship before the end?

Somewhere in Chapter 17, I began to sense that Estraven is not going to make it. Karhide's king is expected to welcome Ai, but Estraven is still the Exile who will remain in hiding. Has he sacrificed everything - including his life because of his belief in Ai's mission?

"With luck we'll make it, and without luck we shall not." Here's to luck - and a happy ending!

So many underlined passages. I must learn more about Ursula Le Guin! Her other books - her background. She's not only a very creative,imaginative writer, she KNOWS so much - Science, Math, the outdoors...

. Won't be back for another day or two until completely caught up with you. Have only read through Chapter 18...

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 23, 2010, 01:21:22 PM

JoanP, yes I was wondering how the relationship between Ai and Estraven would develop when Estraven was in kemmer--especially since Ai was originally put off by the Gethens "duality." When Ai was able to accept the whole of Estraven, he finally recognized that Estraven was the only person who had accepted Ai from the start and befriended him. Ai has finally been changed by the personal relationship he developed with Estraven during their torturous journey over the ice and snow.

As you say, if they had attempted a sexual relationship, it would have emphasized their alien differences. Ai tries to bond with Estraven through mindspeak. Why does Estraven hear Ai's communications in his brother's voice? Does he associate Ai with the brother he loved?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 23, 2010, 02:45:49 PM

The differences are important too. "But it was from the difference between us, not from the affinities and likenesses, but from the differences, that that love came: and it was itself the bridge, the only bridge, across what divided us."

Can one only love the other? Although Gethenians are all the same, they are opposites in kemmer, so their love could still be for difference. Lots to ponder on.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 23, 2010, 02:46:09 PM

(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lefthand/lefthandcvr.jpg)

Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 23, 2010, 10:56:44 PM

Quote

Ai tries to bond with Estraven through mindspeak

I loved that episode in which Estraven tried and tried without success to learn mindspeak. He was surprised that it didn't come easier to him. Ai admits that he felt the same way about Foretelling - which surprised Estraven. Wasn't it funny, when he finally did learn, he called Ai "Genry"? - even in mindspeak, Gethenians are unable to pronounce that "l"...

An interesting question - I thought when Ai's voice reached Estraven in mindspeak sounding like his brother, it was because Estraven was hearing the love, the brotherly love, coming from Ai's heart.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 23, 2010, 11:48:51 PM

PatH, you're right. The differences are important too. Le Guin doesn't give us easy answers.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 24, 2010, 07:51:42 PM

Quote from: JoanP on October 23, 2010, 10:56:44 PM

An interesting question - I thought when Ai's voice reached Estraven in mindspeak sounding like his brother, it was because Estraven was hearing the love, the brotherly love, coming from Ai's heart.

I agree. Perhaps also because Estraven felt love for Ai.

Indeed, Marcie, Le Guin doesn't make anything easy. I'm reminded of what Faxe says at the end of chapter 5: "The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty...."

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 25, 2010, 10:41:52 PM

Everybody's being mighty quiet. I don't know whether you're still finishing up, or everyone is finished and waiting for the others.

Where are you in the book?

There's still some stuff to talk about in the last 2-3 chapters. Maybe we should charge ahead tomorrow.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 26, 2010, 01:18:06 AM

Good idea, Pat.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 26, 2010, 06:27:17 AM

I am now finished with the book. Agree with the ending, but overall did not really enjoy the book.. I loved it years ago. Ah well..

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 26, 2010, 09:31:36 AM

Le Guin makes you contemplate big sweeping issues ~ life death, love, passion - all while focussing on these two vulnerable beings out in the middle of nowhere, battling really overwhelming conditions. I guess I expected that part, but is such passion typical in science fiction? I hadn't thought so before reading this book. Admittedly, I haven't read much science fiction.

I've been thinking about your comments on differences - that's what love is really about when you come down to it, isn't it? Accepting differences? First there is physical attraction, then you start to notice differences. It's only when you learn to accept these differences that enduring love is possible.

I found the constant struggle through the wind, ice and blizzards exhausting - mind-numbing, and felt their depression, (but never doubted Ai and Estraven would make it.) I was really moved when the two were betrayed by Thessicher - the "person" who was said to be Estraven's friend. Do we understand why he did that? Was there anyone to be trusted in Karhide? I was appalled - and then the two had to set out again - with no tent, no food, nothing at all but the two of them huddled together in the snow in the yin yang position for warmth. To me that was the most moving scene in the book.

Steph, do you think the reason you liked the book better the first time was because the element of suspense was missing this time? When you don't know how the whole thing is going to be resolved the experience is different, don't you think?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 26, 2010, 11:53:12 AM

JoanP, science fiction runs the full spectrum in terms of passion and exploring what people are like. Le Guin is definitely one of the most intense and complex. S-F can be a useful tool for looking at things from different angles. We saw that in Frankenstein, too, where the creature and peoples reactions to him said things about humanity and goodness and people's assumptions.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on October 26, 2010, 03:20:32 PM

JoanP "is such passion typical in science fiction?" Even though PatH has been trying to get me to read this book for years, I admit I didn't expect this either. The Left Hand is considered one of the true classics of Science Fiction, and I can see why.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 26, 2010, 04:25:04 PM

It's interesting to read a book that appealed to you a long time ago. Sometimes it no longer seems good. Perhaps it spoke to the particular stage of life you were in, or the issues are outdated or no longer important to you. Sometimes it seems even better; perhaps you understand it better.

I found the book as enjoyable as I did 30 years (or whatever it was) ago. The element of surprise is gone, but I didn't have as much problem with all the people and places you have to keep straight. And I see a lot more detail. For instance, Le Guin gives us all sorts of clues, some of them pretty subtle, as to Estraven's fate. JoanP picked up on this, but as far as I can remember, I didn't the first time. And the Taoist type religion of Karhide and its centrist Orgoreyn spin-off permeate everything, thought and imagery, much more than I remembered.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 26, 2010, 10:38:23 PM

I couldn't remember the ending so I wasn't expecting it again (lol) even though I had read the book many years ago. I think that I read the book shortly after it came out and remember feeling the sort of shock at the way that Le Guin handled gender in her creation of the population on Winter. It was very different from anything I had read. The way that she creates altered worlds reminds me of episodes of Star Trek and Star Trek the Next Generation which provided social commentary by showing us different perspectives on aspects of our own world and society.

I'm now reading some of the essays in a library copy of "Ursula Le Guin," edited by Harold Bloom. There are quite a few on various aspects of The Left Hand of Darkness. Some are fairly academic and I don't understand all of them but they are interesting and thought-provoking.

Here is an excerpt from Jeanne Murray Walker's essay, "Myth, Exchange and History in The Left Hand of Darkness."

"The novel's imagery of the weaver and the weaving shows that any ideal which attempts to fix the movement of time or to make human relationships rigid must be suspect. Productive human exchanges which weave people together into healthy communities are contrasted in the novel with quick, superficial unity... [example] Estraven is replaced in Karhide by Tibe whose dramatic appeals for unity depend upon his cooked-up threat of war... But perhaps the most powerful representation of unproductive human relationships is the cold trip Genly Ai takes with twenty-six silent Orgotians in the back of a truck which he describes as a 'steel box.' In it he is taken to Pulefen Farm where he and the other prisoners are kept in dull conformity by anti-kemmer drugs. Such imagery represents social ideals which do not take account of real exchange. Without such exchange the social structure calcifies and becomes rigid. According to Estraven, who brings about personal and political unity, that unity must be brought out of change: 'The unexpected is what makes life possible,' he tells Genly Ai. And he confesses in his notebook that his one gift is the ability to take advantage of flux and change: 'I never had a gift but one, to know when the great wheel gives to a touch, to know and to act.' Illegitimate unity suffocates, the novel shows: legitmate unity arises out of spontaneous exchange.

Most crucially, then, the myths of LHD assert the impossibility of retreating from history and from human society. They insist that the goal of 'keeping to oneself' in a fixed, temporal place is an impossible fantasy, a fantasy that must be sacrificed to the demands of communal exchange in history. This is implied by the pattern of exchange, the mediating of opposites, which underlies all myths. Truth arises out of conflict; the only legitimate unity is fragile and momentary...

In her myths... the oppositions define human problems, particularly problems with exchange; their mediation creates or maintains community. That these myths are fundamental to the book is evident in the fact that the patterns they define account for most of the plot in the historical sections of the novel. The novel thus locates significance not in some static, timeless place, but in history; and its myths reflect social ideals which continually--and with difficulty--emerge from that history."

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Steph on October 27, 2010, 06:40:35 AM

No, the ending was telegraphed to me both times I have read it. It was the down down depression I felt in the last half of the book.. I think my problem is that I like more upbeat books and particularly treasure my fantasy books for that ability.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 27, 2010, 06:06:27 PM

Oh, I'm glad you reminded me that I still have the Library book of Essays - Harold Bloom and others... Maybe they will make more sense now that I have actually finished the book.

My Library book has a different cover than the one in the heading here - I find myself staring at this cover -

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/26/2a/4b98224128a0b3494b677010.L.jpg)

That's Faxe, the Weaver, right? At least it sounds like him/her in Le Guin's description. (Loved those last pages where she considered how to use the gender pronouns. Laughed out loud at the attempt to write everyone in the feminine. I had no idea she had spent so much time trying to decide how to handle the gender pronouns. Funny when she said she couldn't use "it" to describe a Gethen - can only use "it" to describe a pet - or a baby - by people who don't like babies...)

A two-headed face - male and female at once. Are those tears or melting ice? I think of them as tears. It is a sad book, isn't it, Steph. Are we to think of it as the sacrifices that must be made for the better of Mankind? I'll tell you what I thought was sad...and a little disappointed that Le Guin did not take advantage of the whole "mindspeech" process. Wouldn't it have been great if Estravan had used the mindspeech from the "other side" to communicate with Ai? That's what I had been hoping for . This being Science Fiction, I thought it might have been possible. I'm going to let myself think that that is what happened...

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 27, 2010, 07:40:16 PM

For anyone who doesn't have the afterword about gender pronouns in their book, there's a link to it in the heading, in the line of the Discussion Schedule for this week. It's worth reading, and kind of amusing. Indeed, when I first read the book I found myself thinking of the Gethenians more as men than women, and so did my daughter. But if you substitute "she" for "he", it doesn't work either.

JoanP, I find your cover as ambiguous as a lot of the book. It definitely could be Faxe, but it could be anyone, and those could be tears or ice. I hope you will feed in more of Bloom's comments--I'd like to hear what he says.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Frybabe on October 27, 2010, 10:05:12 PM

Yesterday, we got into a minor discussion about ansibles in my online Tech Writing class. The teacher asked if it originated with Ender's Game. Actually, said I, LeGuin originated the word in her Rocannon's World. I mentioned a few other SciFi books in which ansibles were featured. He got all excited. He is hoping at some point in the future to be able to offer a Scifi course at HACC and welcomed a few more authors to include. I kind of like this guy. He likes Scifi and he has a cat.

Oh, and I ran across a webpage today about some National Institute of Health research being done with a direct hookup of brain to computer. It appears that making the computer do what you want with thought takes less brain cells than they thought. Just think about the next step. WiFi chip in head with which you can dial a phone (and talk to someone with your thoughts?) or work on a compute.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 27, 2010, 10:32:19 PM

JoanP, like Pat, I think the cover is ambiguous and could be the "two halves" of the Gethens (male and female) with icicles representing their cold environment. It's a provocative cover for a provocative book.

I think that the last page is somewhat optimistic with Estraven's son asking Ai the same kind of questions...looking to the future, just like Estraven did.

Frybabe, how great that you were able to provide that information to your teacher and fellow students. Go sci fi fans!

The research about directing a computer with your thoughts is fascinating. I found a couple of related articles at http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2010/ninds-27.htm and http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-03/worlds-first-commercial-brain-computer-interface

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Frybabe on October 27, 2010, 10:45:08 PM

Thanks for finding those links Marcie. The first one is the one I read.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 28, 2010, 02:20:03 PM

My paperback book had the same cover as above. I agree with the comments about it. I didn't identify the person as any specific character, rather a symbol like "Mother Earth".

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 28, 2010, 09:10:52 PM

SPOILER ALERT ABOUT THE END OF THE BOOK - Read only if you've finished the book.

I'm still wondering about what Estraven did skiing toward Tibe's guards on the border between Karhide and Oregoryn. Did he know he would be killed (suicide is forbidden)? Is this another ambiguity that Le Guin doesn't resolve for us?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 28, 2010, 09:21:00 PM

JoanP, you said:

"Loved those last pages where she considered how to use the gender pronouns. Laughed out loud at the attempt to write everyone in the feminine. I had no idea she had spent so much time trying to decide how to handle the gender pronouns. Funny when she said she couldn't use "it" to describe a Gethen - can only use "it" to describe a pet - or a baby - by people who don't like babies..."

Apparently, after the book was published, there was a big uproar from feminists and others about Le Guin's use of masculine pronouns and references for the people of Gethen, when she had purposely created an alien civilization that was non-genderized. She writes in the afterword that even she wasn't aware at the time of how the masculine gender dominated society at the time she wrote the book. She says "There are moments when I would love to rewrite the book. Not in a big way. I don't like any invented pronouns in the long run, and nothing else works at all, so I would stick to the masculine pronoun for people in sourer. But I could take out dozens of utterly unnecessary masculinizations, such as the word "man" when I meant "person" or "people" as I automatically have done in all my writing for years now. And I could use accurate words such as sib, wombchild, rather than the masculinized brother, son."

I think we have come some way in that regard; many people do seem sensitive to not using "masculinized" words when there is an easy alternative.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 29, 2010, 09:29:31 AM

The Episcopal Church made a big deal a few years ago about making hymns "more Inclusive". Ex.: "Time in its ever moving stream/Bears all her sons away" has become "Bears all our lives away". Makes it awkward as older people know the hymns by heart and sing the old version.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 29, 2010, 06:27:21 PM

Ursamajor, that is a good example. It's hard to break habits, especially if one doesn't see a need to do so. Probably many of us who grew up with masculine nouns and pronouns serving for everyone, aren't compelled to try to use other wording.

I think that some of the media, such as news broadcasters, are sensitive to the issue. I wonder if younger people notice?

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 29, 2010, 06:29:36 PM

These next few days, let's talk about anything regarding the book or any other works by or about Ursula Le Guin.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on October 29, 2010, 07:40:50 PM

I'm still drained from the ending of Left Hand - and still wondering what Tibe gave to Thessicher (is that his name?) to get him to turn in Estraven. (30 pieces of silver?) What was the significance of the betrayal? Is it a comment on the human condition - man's weakness? His unworthiness? Was Thessicher Judas? How different would the ending have been without this betrayal?

I am interested in hearing from those who have read other books by Ursula Le Guin. Is there a title you would recommend we read next? I did a quick search to see if any of the titles would sound familiar. (They didn't.)
While searching for other Le Guin titles, I came across this recent note from Ursula written just last month -

Notice to Fans and Correspondents
I have a busy autumn coming up, part of which I’m going to spend entirely off the Internet, and not receiving either email or realmail. So this is a request:

For the rest of 2010, if you write me or send me stuff, please don’t expect an answer!

I will get back to you eventually if I can. But I am old, have no secretarial help, and am already a month behind with the mail. I’m swamped.

Getting input and feedback is a huge pleasure to me, and I enjoy reading and answering readers’ letters — but I feel bad about them when I can’t even say “thanks!” (And please don’t send CDs, I just don’t have the time to listen to them, so they make me feel purely guilty.)

Good cheer to all,

— Ursula
Sept 17, 2010

~

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Frybabe on October 29, 2010, 08:59:43 PM

Yes, I read that JoanP. I am somewhat surprised that she doesn't have a secretary or some kind of help. I would think there are lots of students out there who would volunteer a little time.

I liked Lathe of Heaven and The Dispossessed. Both would be worthy of a discussion.

Has anyone read Le Guin's Lavinia? Ginny? It is set in a time after Troy fell, but when Rome is still a tiny village.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 29, 2010, 09:35:40 PM

Quote from: JoanP on October 29, 2010, 07:40:50 PM

I'm still drained from the ending of Left Hand - and still wondering what Tibe gave to Thessicher (is that his name?) to get him to turn in Estraven. (30 pieces of silver?) What was the significance of the betrayal? Is it a comment on the human condition - man's weakness? His unworthiness? Was Thessicher Judas? How different would the ending have been without this betrayal?

Joan, yes it was upsetting that Thessicher gave up Estraven to Tibe. Estraven conjectures to Ai that "Tibe must have a price on my head." Ai replies, "The damned ungrateful traitor!...whose betrayal was of a friend."

"He is that," said Estraven, "but I asked too much of him, strained a small spirit too far."

Earlier we are told that Thessicher risked the confiscation of his property by sheltering them. Since he owed that property to Estraven who had bought the farm for him, and might be destitute if Estraven had not done that, it seemed not unjust to ask Thessicher to run some risk in return. But Estraven asked for help, not "in repayment but as a matter of friendship, counting not on Thessicher's obligation but on his affection."

Estraven didn't want to put a formal obligation on Thessicher but wanted to ask him for this risky favor out of his own good will, courage and affection. Apparently Thessicher was a "small spirit" and didn't have enough of those characteristics. He was either (or both) greedy for financial gain or to be in favor with Tibe, rather than risk being found out as a traitor consorting with a traitor.

It seems to me that Le Guin is saying that we're all traitors to someone at some times in our life. We are all flawed but what motivates us is what makes the difference.

Here are some traitor relationships I see:
--Estraven became a traitor in the view of Karhide by working with people like Thessicher, in order to prevent a war
--Thessicher became a traitor to Estraven for personal gain
--Ai became a traitor to Estraven by not asking the king to clear Estraven's name before Ai called for his ship to land, as a condition of its landing. He was concerned the king would be persuaded not to go through with the meeting with the Ekumen if he made that demand.

It also was heartbreaking that Ai only recognized in the instant that Estraven skiied toward the guards all that Estraven had risked to help Ai fulfill the quest of the Ekumen--something that Estraven (and only Estraven of all the planet) fully believed in from the start. :'(

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 29, 2010, 09:40:35 PM

Frybabe, Le Guin writes somewhere that very few writers are rich enough to have a secretary respond to their correspondence. I too thought that there are likely students who would do it for free. Maybe she thinks that would be taking advantage of them. I don't know.

I too would recommend Lathe of Heaven, especially because there are two film versions of the work also.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 30, 2010, 01:50:53 AM

Ai feels he has betrayed Estraven by not insisting that Argaven revoke the banishment. But Estraven had no such expectation; it was Ai who made the promise (middle of chapter 19) and Estraven tried to discourage him.

Estraven must have seen his fate from the start. Early in chapter 6 he says "I was born to live in exile, it appeared, and my one was home was by way of dying." When Ai promises to clear his name, he replies I thank you Genry....But I haven't expected to see my home again for a long time now."

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 30, 2010, 02:05:10 AM

What book to read next? JoanP, none of the others that I've read have quite the same intensity of emotion as this one. I agree with Marcie that "The Lathe of Heaven" is good--it's one of my favorites. It's about a man who discovers his dreams change reality. I haven't read "The Dispossessed".

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on October 30, 2010, 11:47:39 AM

I liked le Guin's Earthsea series much better. I had so much trouble following The Left Hand of Darkness that I didn't enjoy it. Wizard of Earthsea is much lighter and more interesting to me - much lesss brooding symbolism and more fun.

I remember one bit where the hero and heroine had traveled from one place to another in the form of crows, thinking back "eating....... Oh, God, eating what..." and averting her mind.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 30, 2010, 05:44:36 PM

Ursamajor, I agree with you the Earthsea series is excellent. I think they're a great job of combining magic and myth, human relations and adventure. Have you read Tehanu and The Other Wind, plus the book of short stories, that follow the original trilogy?

I love both left Hand and Earthsea, but not everybody does, because they are so different. For example, JoanK liked Left Hand but would hate Earthsea, while her daughter loves Earthsea, but hated Left Hand.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on October 30, 2010, 06:30:09 PM

I'm with you, PatH. I've enjoyed all of the Le Guin books I've read, including the Earthsea series. I'm now reading a nonfiction collection by Le Guin called The Wave in the Mind: Talks and Essays on the Writer, the Reader and the Imagination. It's very interesting, funny and profound.

"From Booklist
Le Guin is stimulating company. A profoundly creative and prolific fiction writer who has won a half-dozen major awards and enticed readers to science fiction who otherwise might not have ventured into that fantastic terrain, she is also a forthright, incisive, and funny essayist. In her second nonfiction collection, a piquant, morally lucid, and enlivening volume graced with a well-chosen phrase of Virginia Woolf's, Le Guin considers the pleasures and significance of reading, the true meaning of literacy, the power of the imagination, and the writer's responsibility. On a memoiristic note, she remembers her anthropologist father and Native American family friends. On the literary plane, she praises libraries as sacred places that embody freedom, pays homage to Borges and Twain, dissects the assumptions behind the designation "creative nonfiction," and analyzes the "rhythms of prose." And Le Guin is breathtakingly hilarious on the subjects of age, beauty, and womanhood. Candid, earthy, and deeply involved in the human experience, Le Guin is artist, mentor, and friend. Donna Seaman
Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved"

http://www.amazon.com/Wave-Mind-Essays-Writer-Imagination/dp/1590300068/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288477517&sr=1-1

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 30, 2010, 10:59:15 PM

Well, you all are doing your bit to fill up my TBR list. Frybabe mentioned Lavinia, which is totally unfamiliar to me. It turns out, Lavinia is a character out of Vergil's Aeneid, who never tells her side of the story, and we have it here. Ursamajor reminds me that I haven't yet read The Other Wind, and I certainly want to read Marcie's collection of essays. And maybe I'll try The Dispossessed again (I got stuck in it).

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 31, 2010, 05:09:18 PM

Le Guin's father was a well known anthropologist, Alfred Kroeber, which probably explains the anthropological approach in many of her stories.

Kroeber's best-known piece of work has always fascinated me. Ishi was the last survivor of a Native American tribe, the Yahi, who had lived in Oregon. Realizing he couldn't survive, Ishi came down into the valley and tried to enter the white man's world. Eventually he ended up in California, where Kroeber took charge of him, learned his language, gathered all the information possible about his culture, and made some effort (not too satisfactory) to find some sort of life for him.

Imagine what that must have been like. Everybody and everything you've known is gone, nobody speaks your language and you don't speak anything else, all your survival skills are useless, and you don't understand how your new world works. And a whole body of knowledge--survival skills, tool-making, religion--will die with you.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on October 31, 2010, 05:34:17 PM

A website about Kroeber:

http://www.nndb.com/people/040/000087776/ (http://www.nndb.com/people/040/000087776/)

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: ursamajor on November 01, 2010, 08:51:09 AM

Sounds like a good working definition of hell.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanP on November 01, 2010, 09:24:30 AM

Quote

Candid, earthy, and deeply involved in the human experience

I liked Donna Seaman's description of Ursula Le Guin's work. Thank you for bringing this review here, Marcie. This discussion has been an eye opening experience - I have a totally different view of science fiction now after Left Hand of Darkness and Le Guin's "deep involvement in the human experience." Not only a different perception of science fiction, but Le Guin's portrayals of both Ai and Estraven led to a deeper understanding of what real love is all about. That eternal mystery!

Thank you, Marcie and PatH - and everyone who shared insights here. A really thought-provoking experience!

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on November 01, 2010, 10:50:59 AM

Pat, I've had the Ishi book for a long time but I don't think I ever read the whole thing. I'm motivated by your post to do that soon.

JoanP, I'm so glad that you have a new view of science fiction. There are so many science fiction books that offer a "deep involvement in the human experience."

Many thanks to each of you who participated in this discussion. I always learn a lot from hearing your insights and questions.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: Frybabe on November 01, 2010, 02:06:53 PM

What a wonderful discussion we've had. Even so, I think we barely scratched the surface of all the anthropological, philosophical and political (ideological?) ideas presented within.

Thanks one and all for a most interesting discussion.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: JoanK on November 01, 2010, 03:14:28 PM

(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lefthand/lefthandcvr.jpg)

Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)

I'm so glad this discussion finally led me to read Le Guin. It was a wonderful discussion: many thanks to Pat, Marcie, and all you great discussants.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: marcie on November 01, 2010, 09:52:23 PM

Quote from: Frybabe on November 01, 2010, 02:06:53 PM

What a wonderful discussion we've had. Even so, I think we barely scratched the surface of all the anthropological, philosophical and political (ideological?) ideas presented within.

Thanks one and all for a most interesting discussion.

Frybabe, I think you are right that we can still learn more. If anyone is interested, I found some web sites with articles about this book and interviews with Ursula Le Guin. There are just a few of them on our Readers' Guide page for The Left Hand of Darkness (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/LeftHandDarkness_LeGuin.html).

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on November 02, 2010, 10:38:15 PM

For anyone who hasn't satisfied their appetite for analyzing the book, some of the references in Marcie's link, especially the chapter-by-chapter analysis, have a lot more material.

Title: Re: Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Post by: PatH on November 04, 2010, 07:22:51 AM

I've really enjoyed discussing this book with all of you. I thought I knew it well, but you have taught me more, and it's been a great sharing of ideas and opinions. Thanks for traveling this road with me.