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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Please Post below if you can join us in June!
Everyone is welcome!
Old Filth
by Jane Gardam
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldfilth/oldfilthcvr.jpg) | "The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love.
It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became." (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell)
The novelist, Jane Gardam was born in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July 11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age.
“Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain. Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.” Library Journal |
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Discussion Schedule for next week:
June 1 - June 5 ~ Part I Scene: Inner Temple; The Donheads; Kotakinakulu; Inner Temple pgs. 1 - 48 (up to the Wales Chapter)
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Some Pre-discussion topics for Consideration
May 18 - 31
1 "The older you get, it all returns to childhood." Are you finding this to be true in your own life?
2. Did you notice Jane Gardam's dedication in the front of the book? What do you know of the "Orphans of the Raj" and their parents? In what sense were these children orphans?
3. The author relates that Rudyard Kipling's short story, "Baa Baa Black Sheep," made a great impression on her. You'll find links here in the heading to this story and a short biography of Kipling.
Related Links:
A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/kipling/rkbio2.html);
Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep" (http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/40879/);
BBC interview with Jane Gardam on Old Filth, 2006 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00f8mfv);
Discussion Leaders: Traude (email=traudestwo2@gmail.com) & Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net)
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What a delightful book! Jane Gardam has written a book with something for everyone, which I am certain will make for a lively discussion here! Thank you for your vote, which brought this book to our attention. The author herself is in her late seventies. She knows what she is talking about when she writes of retirement, aging and rediscovering parts of oneself in the process.
Jane Gardam's Old Firth come alive in these pages, as his life and the British Empire comes to a close. Oh, and don't be put off by the title - it is not what it seems - or is it?
You will probably be able to get a library copy as this book was written in 1987. Reserve your copy now!
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Jpan- will this be discussed in June?
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June 1 - can you make it? You have been missed! I think you'll love this one!
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My copy is in at the library, will pick it up tomorrow! (they're closed today) You make it sound really good, and I am hoping it is all you have said. (I tried another book that was recommended here awhile back, and it was so deadly dull that I took it back quickly.) And to embellish the point, I don't even remember the title! I don't think it was part of a "discussion", but was highly recommended by a few.
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X - marking my spot
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Count me in. I am looking forward to it.
Sheila
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I'm next in line for "Old Filth" at the library.
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How marvelous that this book got the nod for discussion! It is wonderful and quite funny. I read it right after it was published and was so taken with it that I followed up with every other book of the author's that the public library had.
Jane Gardam OBE has won many awards in Britain but is unfortunately not nearly as well known in this country as her compatriot Anita Brookner (Hotel du Lac). They also are contemporaries, both born in July 1928, about a week apart.
Since I've volunteered to co-lead the discussion I'd like to take this opportunity to warmly welcome all those who intend to join in. I hope many more will follow your lead.
Andy, so good to see you ! You were missed. You'll like this book, I predict. It is poignant and funny. And lest anyone thinks the second word in the title is a "dirty word", it stands for " Failed in London, Try Hong Kong", a word of advice for a lawyer who can't cut it in London.
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I've read Old Filth and want to read it again - so of course I'll be here lurking around as usual.
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Yes, Joan, I will be able to make it. Although we will be traveling a great deal in the month of June I will take my Nook. I've already downloaded it.
Thank you Traude and Joan, it is nice to be missed sometimes.
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Traude is here! Thanks for bringing in the acronym, FILTH. And yes, though I have only read the opening chapters, I'll agree with you already, the book is funny...and as you say, "poignant." You've read ALL of Gardam's books the library in MA had? About how many would you say they had? I'm going to admit that I'd never heard of this very popular British author before. She's
won earned so many prizes I'm not going to try to remember. So happy to have this opportunity to find out what I've been missing all these years.
Tomereader, the book is said to be funny, poignant and sometimes painful to read. I don't think you will find much room for boredom here.
Gum! - Andy - Callie Sheila and Tomereader! This is so much fun, welcoming each one of you! And you are here early for the best seats - up front!
This morning in the Suggestion Box, Rosemary left a link to an interview with Jane Gardam given back in 2006. I've put a link to the interview in the heading here - BUT for those who have not yet read the book, it probably contains a bit too much information that will spoil the element of surprise. I recommend you save it to savor at the end of the discussion - or at least until you have read the book.
Be on the lookout for Rosemary - she can translate the British language for us. I liked one of the expressions the author used in the interview as she described the "pottiness" of old age. I sensed the meaning, but never heard of the term before.
In this interview, the author agrees with the interviewer - "the older you get, it all returns to childhood."
Have you found this to be true?
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Okay "funny" got my attention. After just finishing up Major Pettigrew's Last Stand and enjoying the humor, I must join in Old FILTH. Thanks for the understanding, I kept thinking I was reading it wrong. lolol
JoanP, "the book is said to be funny, poignant and sometimes painful to read."Hmmm...I hope not too painful.
Save a seat for me!
Ciao for now~
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Hello, Bellamarie, and Welcome ! Good to have you here.
To explain the acronym was not really premature because the author herself mentions it on the first page of the book, quite possibly to rule out misconceptions from the start.
Thanks for the link to the interesting interview, JoanP, perfectly handled, has thoughtful questions from a polite, respectful audience without interruptions in mid-sentence or talking-over others. Impressive.
JoanP, yes, I read three other Gardam books in addition to Old Filfth. But sisnce the latter is our focus for June, I won't mention the others, even though two of them do have a bearing on O.F.
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ANDY, you have been missed! Happy to see you here!
I read the book some time ago, also, and would like to participate. Filth is one of my favorite characters. I think I read another one of Gardam's books but cannot remember; I'll look it up. Something about HAT I think.
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Ella, so good to see you here - Welcome! We know how you feel about Fiction - but Old Filth is set against the backdrop of nearly a century of history and change. There is much for you to like here. But you know that - you read the book - and you are here with us to talk about it.
After Old Filth, Jane Gardam wrote two more books about Sir Edward Feathers - I know the title wasn't The Man in the Big Yellow Hat - but something like that... ;D
Bella - a mix of funny and poignancy - and the survival of the human spirit,perhaps.
Did you notice Jane Gardam's dedication in the front of the book? Are any of you familiar with the "Orphans of the Raj" and their parents? Why were these children considered "orphans"?
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My library has seven Jane Gardam books, including "The People On Privilege Hill" (pub. 2008) and "The Man In The Wooden Hat" (pub. 2009). "God On The Rocks" was published in 2010.
The others were published earlier in this century - except for "Queen of the Tambourine", described as Suspense Stories, published in 1991.
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Welcome, Ella ! Yes, the book you mentioned is The Man in the Wooden Hat, as Callie confirmed above. It is a sequel to Old Filth written from the perspective of his wife.
Callie, The People of Privilege Hill is a collection of short stories, one of which involves our barrister of Old Filfth. The Queen of the Tamourine is vintage Gardam portraying wonderfully affectig characters of amazing variety.
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I simply would not have thought it! The Internet is full of references to OLD FILTH and its author: Just to quote a bit from the British Daily Mail online:
"At its heart, Old Filth is a study of the so-called 'Raj Orphans', young children who were sent by their parents from the warm colonies of the British Empire back to the chilly mother country to be brought up by relatives, or even strangers.
Although it's not something that happened to Jane, influences from books she'd read are everywhere.
In this case it was former Raj Orphan Rudyard Kipling who was a source of inspiration. Jane read his story Baa Baa, Black Sheep, an account of Kipling's own experiences when he was sent to Britain from his birthplace in India.
"I couldn't bear to be in the same room as that book; it was horrifying," says Jane.
"Before that, I'd always thought it was rather smart to be a Raj Orphan. They seemed slightly superior, and very confident; it was only later I realised how terrible it was.
"It was accepted as quite normal to send your children overseas for years, but it was absolutely barmy," she continues.
"I wanted to show what it does to a child ?"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/books/article-367157/Children-Empire.html
(p.s. I just got word that my sister will be visiting me in June, so am not sure how much time I can devote to reading/posting about the book.)
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Callie, it struck me at first that Jane Gardham, born in 1928, must have written "God On The Rocks" at the age of 82! But I checked it out and found that this book was published in the US in 2010 - but was actually an early work, a finalist for the Booker Prize back in 1978.
I'm wondering if she is still writing...
Ella, I just had an idea - why not try to get your sister interested in the book too?
Thank you for the information on these "Raj Orphans" -
"young children who were sent by their parents from the warm colonies of the British Empire back to the chilly mother country to be brought up by relatives, or even strangers."
I am ignorant at the idea of sending children to be brought up by relatives or strangers...because of the heat! Safety, I can understand...but I'd move to a cooler climate rather than send my child away for an indefinite period...
Well, this isn't about me, so I mustn't comment. about what actually took place. Can anyone explain what it was that compelled people to stay in India once children were born?
Speaking of "my child" - my Will spent 10 work-related days in India- he was in the airport in Mumbai (Bombay) the day Usama bin Laden was killed. Tension was high, airlines were striking...but what concerned him was that he had to wear his suit for business in 107 degree heat - for the ten days he'd be there. The heat is fierce there - Yesterday it was 113 degrees!
Bellamarie, the painful part
of the story seems to me to be Old Filth's childhood and his days as a Raj Orphan. As Ella writes, Jane Gardam was horrified at reading Kipling's short story -"Baa Baa Black Sheep," his story of another Raj orphan.
Dare you to read the story - or at least start it. There's a link to the electronic text in the heading. Let us know how far you get...
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I believe the British in India and elsewhere sent their children 'home' for two reasons - firstly the parents wanted their offspring to have an English education and secondly, the incidence of disease and death in children who remained in India or the tropics after the age of five or so was extremely high - another good reason to send them away. The parents no doubt stayed in their posts for economic reasons and of course, as sending the children home was the usual thing to do no-one would have thought too much of it. People everywhere still send their children away to boarding school at a very tender age and for less reason than the British in India had.
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"as sending the children home was the usual thing to do no-one would have thought too much of it."
Gum, I just spent some time reading Kipling's Baa Baa, Black Sheep - the link is in the heading. Have you read it? The whole thing? I gather that most of the Homes that took in children from India were not as bad as the family that took in Kipling's Punch and Judy. If it was "the usual thing" to do, and conditions were so bad, word would have got out about what happened to the kids. What struck me reading Kipling's story - with parents so far away - for years, the kids seem to have had no one to turn to - no one to appeal to-
"People everywhere still send their children away to boarding school at a very tender age and for less reason than the British in India had."
I can relate to the boarding school situation. My mother died soon after I turned seven - two months later; I was in boarding school. They weren't cruel to me there or anything, but this was a devastating, life-changing experience.
I think that a school provides more supervision and children are safer than Punch and Judy were with that dreadful Auntie Rose.. I have to wonder how many children experienced such cruelty.
Bellamarie - please don't come away thinking that OLD FILTH is as sad a story as Kipling's. If you've started the book, you'll see that Filth spent only a few years at Home before attending boarding school.
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JoanP, I will definitely check out Kipling's Baa Baa Black Sheep, afterall, how can a pass up a dare. lolol I have not gotten the book Old FITH yet, I am deciding if I want to read it on my nook color or check it out of the public library. I love my nook, but miss holding a real book. Hey look at that I made a rhyme. lol
Ciao for now~
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Good news, my book has arrived and I am glad I can now refresh my memories of the story.
As Gumtree has said, in the two and a half centuries of the British Empire it became a custom that the children of, first the traders of the East India Company, and later the military and administrative personnel, were sent to England to be educated to shield them from the tropical
climate and protect them from tropical diseases. There is no doubt that in many cases the long separations between children and their parents inflicted irreparable harm. But in many instances the children were placed with family members in England, and experiences as bleak as Kipling's surely were in the minority. The British wives steadfastly stayed in India with their husbands through thick and thin. There are several books out that describe the memsahibs, as they were called, and their courage.
Readers of this story need to understand that there was no fraternization, no contact, between the rulers and the ruled in India. The British established and lived in what were called cantonments , with a club and often a church, and only servants had permission to be there. The effects of the extreme weather were most pronounced in the plains, and that is why hill stations, locations near mountainous areas, were sought after. It is well known that, in the "worst" months of the year, the British Viceroys transferred the staff from Calcutta and conducted all activities in a place called SIMLA .
This is a part of history with which we are not familiar in this country. But it is something we ought to know about, even though it is only one aspect in the novel we are reading, and background information. The British Empire ended in 1947 when the subcontinent was divided into two two nations, India and Pakistan -- and there has been no lasting peace since.
now we may be a little better prepared for readig this book.
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In this interview, the author agrees with the interviewer - "the older you get, it all returns to childhood."
Have you found this to be true?
My oh my- do I ever find this to be true, at this juncture! As life throws you curves, I believe that we all tend to fall back on those "comfort" days of yester-year. To many, of us, childhood denotes an era of security, spontaneity and unaffected days that we all hold dear.
Planning our June, 50th high school class reunion and speaking with so many "forgotten" class mates about our experiences, I have really returned to my adolescence. (Some would argue, I imagine, that I have never left my adolescent period.) ;D
Thank you Traude for that back ground information re. the British Empire.
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I just finished reading Baa Baa Black Sheep by Rudyard Kipling. My heart goes out to Punch, how on earth could any child be treated so unforgiveably cruel? Thank you JoanP. for daring me to read it. Although it was bit a difficult in the beginning, I was determined to see it through. It reminded me of a book I read many years ago called, "Hinds' Feet on High Places" by Hannah Hurnard. It has the same style and message I think.
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Bellamarie, did you get the idea that young Punch will be fine now and go into his future fully recovered with no repercussions from his time spent at Home?
I'm on my way to read
"Hinds' Feet on High Places" by Hannah Hurnard.
I'm really interested in learning of the experiences of the Home children during this period. It was Kipling's story that planted the seed for Jane Gardam's Filth's experience.
Kipling's own experience as a young boy is worth reading about too - A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/kipling/rkbio2.html)
Traude, it is reassuring to know that "such experiences were surely in the minority." Even without heartless and twisted caretakers, I can't believe that a child's life would not be affected by separation from his/her parents at such a young age for the formative years, can you?
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"To many, of us, childhood denotes an era of security, spontaneity and unaffected days that we all hold dear." Andy
50th reunions are fun, aren't they? I've been to mine several years ago. Don't ask how many! At first you don't recognize your former classmates - time has taken its toll - we've changed in appearance.
But as we laughed and talked and reminisced, we came to the conclusion that we were still the same as we were back then - only more so. Exaggerated versions of our younger selves.
For those of you whose past contained no unpleasant or even traumatic experiences, no regrets - you must consider yourself very fortunate. I pray that my own boys consider themselves as you fortunate as you are.
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JoanP, Hmmm...I'm not sure if Punch could as you asked "did you get the idea that young Punch will be fine now and go into his future fully recovered with no repercussions from his time spent at Home?"
When Judy made the comment to Punch in the last lines it sounded as if she felt he would never be free of the harm that came to him personally inside. Yet, she said the thing about having faith. I did so much enjoy the love his mother showed to him once they were back together, and how he did feel very confident that his mother's love was unconditional, unwavering and he even proved it to Judy when he went in the ditch and their mother did not get angry and call him a pagal. So yes, maybe he will be just fine.
Good luck with Hind's Feet on High Places, it's a bit confusing in the beginning but it was truly life changing for me.
Andy~Wow a 50 yr reunion, how exciting. Our high school passed up our 40th this year and I was very much looking forward to it.
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Ordered my book today.
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Daughter Sally has promised to bring me a copy of Old Filth from her library.
Mine doesn't have it. I'm hoping there won't be any major delay, as the book
does seem to be popular.
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Downloaded the book on my IPAD and will join the discussion.. Have not even looked at it yet..But have another week.
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Yikes, Steph, only one week to go? I had better get hopping here.
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Kidsal, happy to hear that you will be joining us. You too, Babi! Welcome!
(Thank you, daughter Sally!)
Steph, you are just the person to help with the discussion schedule. Because this book does not have Chapter numbers, we're going to have to put the TITLES the author has given to the chapters in the discussion schedule in the heading.
Page numbers are probably too varied to include. The difference between paperback and hardcover page numbers, yes - but also the page numbers you with E-readers are seeing make page references worthless to you. Confusing too?
For the first week we've scheduled these chapters for discussion:
June 1 - June 5 ~ Part I Scene: Inner Temple; The Donheads; pgs. 1 - 48
The page numbers you see there refers to the paging in the paperback. Does it help, or distract? Out of curiosity, what are the page numbers that you see for these chapters?
Can you suggest a better way to refer to these pages, chapters? Does it help providing the chapter titles?
Andy, good morning! Does this scheduling help you? Are you reading a paperback, hardcover, or e-reader? We're starting with only 50 pages to get acclimated...
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Joan, I am reading this on my NOOK e-reader. It has a total of 229 pages.
As long as we all agree on the names of the chapters, we should be alright.
On my e-reader: Part 1 starts on pg. 7-43, entitled SCENE: INNER TEMPLE
PAGES 44 THRU PG. 50 THE DONHEADS
That would take me through to begin THE OUTFIT on pg. 51
It makes a differences as to font etc.
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OH OH! I made a mistake here. The DONHEADS only goes thru page 23 on my NOOK and then Katakinakulu starts on pg. 24. I skipped right over that one. I'm sorry if I screwed anybody up with the wrong information.
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Andy, I'm sorry, it was me. Let's start again. Here's the discussion schedule for June 1 -
June 1 - June 5 ~ Part I Scene: Inner Temple; The Donheads; Kotakinakulu; Inner Temple pgs. 1 - 48
Will you check again to see where the second Inner Temple chapter ends - the one following Kotakinakulu? The page number.
Or another way to do this is simply to say - we'll discuss up to the Wales chapter...
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OK Joan, up to the Wales Chapter takes me to page 37. Thank yo.u
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I am lucky enough to have six libraries within just miles of my home, so I called the closest branch and they didn't have it but they are having the main branch send it, so I will have it in just a couple of days. I decided not to use my nook color because I do miss the feel of holding a book in my hands. If I like it enough I will download it to my nook so I will own it. Can't wait to begin.
Ciao for now~
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Please count me in to read this book. It looks like an interesting choice!
I'll be reading it on my Kindle application for Macbook. There aren't any page numbers on my version. But I can follow your schedule if you include chapter titles.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Please Post below if you can join us in June!
Everyone is welcome!
Old Filth
by Jane Gardam
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldfilth/oldfilthcvr.jpg) | "The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love.
It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became." (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell)
The novelist, Jane Gardam was born in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July 11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age.
“Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain. Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.” Library Journal |
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Discussion Schedule for next week:
June 1 - June 5 ~ Part I Scene: Inner Temple; The Donheads; Kotakinakulu; Inner Temple pgs. 1 - 48 (up to the Wales Chapter)
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Some Pre-discussion topics for Consideration
May 18 - 31
1 "The older you get, it all returns to childhood." Are you finding this to be true in your own life?
2. Did you notice Jane Gardam's dedication in the front of the book? What do you know of the "Orphans of the Raj" and their parents? In what sense were these children orphans?
3. The author relates that Rudyard Kipling's short story, "Baa Baa Black Sheep," made a great impression on her. You'll find links here in the heading to this story and a short biography of Kipling.
Related Links:
A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/kipling/rkbio2.html);
Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep" (http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/40879/);
BBC interview with Jane Gardam on Old Filth, 2006 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00f8mfv);
Discussion Leaders: Traude (email=traudestwo2@gmail.com) & Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net)
Steph: I hav e chapter heading, but I did not download the Kindle version, but the Ibook version. I have four different ebook downloads on my IPAd..
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MaryH is joining us from Southeast Alaska - our newest poster! Please bring her a comfortable chair, a cuppa something and give her a warm Welcome!
I can't get over the technology in use here. A far cry from our old book discussions when our only consideration was the page numbers in hardback and paperback! Thank heaven for those Chapter Titles. Are we all set for next week, then? We will be discussing the pages up to the WALES chapter...and not beyond. This is not to say that you can't read ahead, we'd never say that. BUT we ask you not to reveal anything beyond the first page of Wales.
I've read the first section - and loving Jane Gardham's economic descriptive style.
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I hope by the weekend to be reading the book.. But life is hectic for the next few days,, plus I have become addicted to the Casey Anthony trial locally. Whew.. the girl simply could not use the truth in her life. Amazing.
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It's like tragic-comedy in some places, isn't it?
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Alf,, yes, yesterday was a parade of boyfriends and others.. She partied the entire month.. No matter how the lawyer twists it, she never showed one moment of any panic or pain or remorse.. Her boyfriend at that time made it clear.. Her making faces all day does not help her case.. Her lawyer needs to talk to her.. The second chair, Cheney Mason got to cross a witness at the end. He is so very much better than her primary.
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STEPH, I begin to think this woman lives in a world of her own. She tells it like
she wants it to be, and lives it as though it was true.
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aaaaHHHHHHHHHHH- to be in that world of idealism just for one day.........I'm far too much of a realist to live that way.
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I picked up a copy of the book yesterday, so will be here for the opening.
JOANP, to answer Question #1 in the heading, yes, to some extent that is true. I find myself speaking too much of the past to my daughter who is absorbed in her own life and seems a bit uninterested in my conversation; at least she doesn't respond in kind. She, of course, will someday be more interested.
At my age, I have much less future than I had the past. I am horrified at times when commentators or someone refers to the Kennedy years, the Civil Rights movement, the Vietnam War as historical events that happened some 40 -50 years ago. Truly not!
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It is a true pleasure for me that so many of you expressed the interest to join us in this discussion. This is a renewed, heartfelt collective welcome for all of you.
At this point we are in a prediscussion, which can be difficult sometimes because they EXclude anything that does not pertain to the book itself. Bridging the time to Jun 1st, we have talked about the custom of sending young Anglo children Home (and the word is always capitalized) to England, a total separation of children and parents for years, often inflicting irreparable emotional damage in those "Orphans of the Raj".
We have four days let before the discussion officially begins, and that might be enough time for us to lthink, for example, of what connection there is between Hong Kong and London, what more we could possibly learn about an old universally admired barrister with a stellar professional reputation (and immense wealth). What bright Old Filth to where he is when the book begins ? Are there untold secrets ?
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straudetwo~ Sending children away to be educated and cared for my total strangers or relatives for years is something I had no idea they did in England or other places in the world. I own my in home day care and just the amount of hours in a week some children spend with me, I feel is too much time away from their parents, I couldn't imagine them being apart for years. I read Baa Baa Blacksheep by Kipling and it broke my heart how Punch was treated. But then when children have parents such as Casey Anthony, they are better off with strangers. Hmmm...did you like my segway?
Steph~ I wish I could find the channel so I could dvr the trial. That girl is incredible, I can't keep up with all her lies. I pray her parents had nothing to do with the death or cover up of that sweet little angel.
Okay just got my book yesterday so I intend to begin reading it tomorrow.
Ciao for now~
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I knew that my parents talked about the English children who came to the US during WWII.. To get away from the bombing.. That had to have been hard on both the parents and the children.. And think of the railroad children, who were loaded on trains in NYC and trained west to start a new life as helpers on farms, etc. Sending children away in times of stress seems to have been a well known alternative for them.
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Ella, I find myself "going back" too - the older I become. I can just see Cindy rolling her eyes listening to your stories. I don't think I talk to my boys about my childhood, but I do find that many (most?) of my views of the world, most of the ways I respond to situations - all go back to childhood and the boarding school experience at that young age. I guess I believe that those who had a more stable, or a more complete childhood, undisturbed childhood, look back at childhood in a very different way.
My heart broke for Kipling's "Punch" too, Bellamarie.
From Kipling's biography -
"His early years in India, until he reached the age of six, seem to have been idyllic, but in 1871 the Kipling family returned to England. After six months John and Alice Kipling returned to India, leaving six-year old Rudyard and his three-year-old sister as boarders with the Holloway family in Southsea. During his five years in this foster home he was bullied and physically mistreated, and the experience left him with deep psychological scars and a sense of betrayal.
Between 1878 and 1882 he attended the United Services College at Westward Ho in north Devon. The College was a new and very rough boarding school where, nearsighted and physically frail, he was once again teased and bullied, but where, nevertheless, he developed fierce loyalties and a love of literature."
Steph, I knew that children were taken to the country for protection during the war...and agree that must have been difficult for both parents and children. But do I sense that it was more of a hardship for the children of the Empire sent to England at a young age to live with foster parents -and then on to school. Isn't this most of one's childhood?
Gum says that this was a common practice, not at all unusual in the days of the Empire. I can't help but think that after so many years away from one's family would have to cause some sort of trauma - varying degrees depending on how one was treated during those formative years.
Maybe we need to understand more about the British Empire here - and its extent. If it was common practice to send a young child HOME, for early child care and then schooling, how many children must there have been in foster care? That must be a booming business! Did any children remain with their families?
Let's talk about the British Empire a bit - I'll try to find a map. Maybe you can help?
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"When the British Empire was at its height in the early 1900s, it included over 20 percent of the world's land area and more than 400 million people - the single largest empire in the history of the world since time began. This remarkable achievement by a country half the size of France, was a tribute to the superb organizational skills of the White empire builders of that nation: the saying that the "sun never set on the British Empire" was very close to the truth: because of its geographic spread, some territory, somewhere, was always in the daylight hours."
http://www.white-history.com/hwr46.htm
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I would think that if you spent nine or more months a year away from your family that they would be the strangers. You would be more connected to the people you met in school.
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Senior learn website and I are arguing it out this am.. Some days, it just wont load. but now it seems better.
The upper class English still send their sons away quite early.. I think around 8 to boarding school..
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Dear fellow readers, I apologize for not having posted these last few days of our pre-discussion and assure you I have not forgotten my duties.
The problem was our miserable New England weather where winter is harsh and interminable and unexpectedly morphs into summer, entirely forgetting spring. The transition was especially abrupt this year when the heat was on till last Monday and central air an urgent necessity two days later.
Something we cannot do in pre-discussions is getting into the respective book itself, and that can be limiting. In the current case we were drawn to the subject of Orphans of the Raj because of the author's dedication, but not much else.
I know JoanP has prepared questions for the first assignment and additional graphs for the header. In the days remaining before June 1st, we might wonder what more there is to learn about Old Filth, a universally respected, admired, successful barrister and judge of impeccable manners and meticulous attire - if chronologically behind.
Is there the possibility of a secretive past ? And wht about Hong Kong ? What do we know about this allegedly fabulous place ?
I admit that I didn't think much about it until I happened on one of Shirley Macean's books, which was set in H.K. and sounded like a dream -
one of those that are ephemeral, evanescent ...
WThis is a new,collective welcome to all of you who are ready to participate.
And greetings on this Memorial Day.
Traude
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I agree, kidsal, after 8 or 9 months away at school, away from family, parents would become like stangers to a child. As Steph says, it is quite common to send eight year olds away to boarding school. Maybe they get to come home for vacations - or parents can come to visit?
But it seems that those living in far-flung countries during the days of the Empire - sent even younger children HOME to England, either to relatives or to foster familie for health reasons - or to escape the brutal heat. And from these foster homes, they went on to boarding school. From what I can tell, there were many children who did not see their parents for YEARS. I can't imagine a parent-child relationship survived this period of estrangment during the formative years. I may be wrong. I hope I'm wrong.
Traude, I know of your concern about our lack of geographic knowledge - (I confessed ignorance of the extent of the British Empire.) If you have a few minutes, here's a two minute lesson on the Brtish Empire...well done, I think -
Animated Map of the British Empire (http://www.the-map-as-history.com/demos/tome05/index.php)
"When the British Empire was at its height in the early 1900s, it included over 20 percent of the world's land area and more than 400 million people - the single largest empire in the history of the world since time began. This remarkable achievement by a country half the size of France, was a tribute to the superb organizational skills of the White empire builders of that nation: the saying that the "sun never set on the British Empire" was very close to the truth: because of its geographic spread, some territory, somewhere, was always in the daylight hours. "
So it must have taken many Brits to administer these colonies - to maintain the trade, to staff the garrisons ...and that means a lot of children needed to be sent HOME for safety and education.
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I'm so happy to see this discussion here since "old Filth" is one of my favorite books. I read it some time ago as a library book as well as "The Man In the Wooden Hat" which fills in a lot more of the story. I ordered my own copies of these books from Amazon since they are both definitely "keepers". The books came a few days ago so I am prepared for the discussion. I will, of course, have to make a huge effort not to committ "spoilers".
One of the things that is fuzzy to me is the English trial procedures. I need to have the lawyers roles clarified since I am confused about advocates, barristers and solicitors and who does what! This isn't really necessary to the enjoyment of the book, I suppose, but it would be nice to get these things straight! Rosemary?????
The really wonderful thing about this book is Gardam's marvelous prose. She can say in one wondrfully illuminating phrase or two what would take a lesser talent a whole page to express. The book is also very visual - you see everything happening right before you.
Thanks for bringing it here!!!
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Thank YOU for joining us, JoanR! You always add so much to a discussion - and your love for Jane Gardam's writing is obvious... I'm quite sure that RosemaryK has expressed interest in joining us in this discussion. She herself is a barrister - or a solicitor...or? Plus she knows the language! As in "His shoes shone like conkers." Oops...two days early with that...
Welcome, Joan!
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"His shoes shone like conkers."
Conkers are the nut of the horse chestnut - they's really shiny and kids used to play games with them -
http://www.lemonlight.org/photos/uncategorized/conkers.jpg
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Aha,, Conkers I knew.. Some state in the midwest has candy that they call conkers.. brown and shiny.. I cant remember which one, just that you saw them everywhere.
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Alas, I still do not have a copy of the book. It appears I will be joining you late; I hope not too
much later.
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Ha! The author had a lot of pieces left. It's true. There are huge gaps in the story. Fifty years can go by with a turn of the page. How clever! The author left herself with plenty for a subsequent volume. This book is written in what I think of as the humpty-dumpty narrative style. It's an attempt at a tour de force in putting a smashed life back together again. Hope I haven't spoiled it. Back later. I'm on my way out to get my hands on The Man In The Wooden Hat.
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Don't give up, Babi. We're going to be focusing on the first 50 pages or so this week - not so much that you can't catch up. Is your daughter having difficulty locating the book - or is the timing off with the holiday and all?
Gum, thanks so much for "conkers" - photo and all. I can definitely see the shoes metaphor there. Steph, can you describel the candy you remember? Was it like rock candy?
Jonathan - love the fresh way you describe Gardham's style - "a humpty-dumpty narrative - a tour de force in putting a smashed life back together again."
I don't know what's to come, but if it turns out to be true, the whole idea of making sense of one's life - one's "smashed" life - and putting it back together again after you've turned 80 - that's intriguing! So happy you plan to join us, Jonathan! Welcome!
I found us another map - to give us an idea of the size of the British Empire -
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTvSp4sXQQapvv6XFsibGRsDMwR7IXXE9YKo73-U2-yY-lySatP2g) (http://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/map_of_the_british_empire_in_the_1920s.png)
click on map twice to enlarge
Can we talk briefly about Hong Kong under British rule? Today? I confess ignorance.
This might help us prepare for Filth's story when we begin the discussion on Wednesday.
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I am here at last - apologies for lateness! And can you believe that just as I got to the last post and started to type, cat woke up and is now trying to stand on the keyboard ::)
I had trouble tracking down a copy - mine being in that black hole otherwise known as Storage - but I now have one waiting for me at the local library, will collect later today or tomorrow (both daughters on half term holidays at the moment, so I have insisted we do some culture today - it's brilliantly sunny here and we can walk along the Waters of Leith to the Dean Gallery and the Museum of Modern Art). I have read the book, and some of Gardam's others, before, but I certainly need to refresh my memory.
Sending children away was endemic amongst the upper/upper middle classes in the first part of the 20th century - it was not just parents abroad who did it. It was considered "what one did" to ensure ones children not only had a good education but also remained part of the ruling classes, learned their ways, developed their attitudes, etc. People like this would never even have considered the local state schools - they would not even have considered the private day schools.
Nowadays the practice is still common amongst the rich and the aspiring. They see it as buying a place for their children in the country's elite - and unfortunately they are probably right, as one newspaper recently did a survey that showed that vast numbers of our Members of Parliament (esp the men) came from a small number of top boarding schools - Cameron himself was at Eton (the poshest of them all), and Tony Blair was at Fettes (Eton's equivalent in Edinburgh). You would find the same backgrounds in top businessmen, bankers, etc - the Old School Tie is still immensely important, and can open many doors for its members. I heard recently that one of the Edinburgh merchant banks only recruits from certain Edinburgh public (ie top private) schools - although of course they would never be able to admit that.
I know several people who were sent to boarding school at a young age. One of them says she enjoyed it - she is very hearty and was brought up not to complain - the other two absolutely loathed it and were deeply unhappy. As a result, the male of these two has insisted on sending his own children to the local state schools - the woman has married into the local aristocracy and all of her children have been sent away to school against her wishes, because "that is what the family does".
The Raj parents sent their children Home for the reasons already stated - health and education - but the real question in my mind is, why did the mothers stay? And it all boils down to Duty. The British really thought that it was their duty to rule India, and the wives thought it was theirs to stay with their husbands. These days - esp in Aberdeen - many men work overseas because of the oil industry. Sometimes the whole family goes, esp if there is a British or International school available, sometimes the children are sent back to UK boarding schools (particularly as the fees are paid by the oil companies, so some parents see this as a way of getting a much "better" education for their children than they could otherwise have afforded). One of my friend's daughters lasted three weeks before she asked to be taken back to the Middle East, as she was so unhappy - her mother came and got her, but not everyone would do that - there is still a culture, especially amongst the upper classes, of stiff upper lip and "making a man" of ones child, etc.
Re Hong Kong, I don't know much about it either - in my lifetime it has always been much more westernised than China, with many, many Hong Kong students coming to the UK (and the US I think) to study. There are also many Hong Kong children in some UK boarding schools. The UK did, of course, have to give it back to China some years ago - I do remember seeing Chris Patten (the last governor and a good man) and his family sailing out of the harbour for the last time, in the darkness, surrounded by fireworks and celebrations. It was a very emotional scene and his daughters were crying.
Re lawyers - yes I am a solicitor. In England, the legal profession is split into two branches - barristers appear in court and cannot contact clients directly, everything been done through the solicitor, who is more of the front man/woman. Solicitors see clients in their offices and offer a broad range of services, from litigation (court matters, civil and criminal) to wills, probate, employment advice, licensing, commercial work, conveyancing (house buying/selling), etc. Nowadays solicitors do have "rights of audience" in some of the lower courts, but only barristers can appear in the higher courts, and they would also still be instructed to appear in the lower courts sometimes. The barristers are the ones who wear the wigs and gowns. Barristers work in what are called chambers, - in London they are mostly situated around the Inns of Court, off the Strand. Each Chambers will be serviced by several clerks - these are often "East End boys" (or girls), who have a sharp eye for cutting the deals and agreeing the fees with the instructing solicitors. The barristers are still largely upper class people who went to the right schools (see above!), especially as the training for the job is very long and expensive, and you then need to know people to get into one of the Inns of Court. (There are, however, a few high profile "left wing" chambers who would be more likely to sponsor applicants from less exalted backgrounds). There is, however, a great interdependence between the barristers and the clerks, as without the clerks (who get a cut of the barrister's fee for each job) the barristers wouldn't have any work. Incidentally, only barristers can apply to become judges - hence the further perpetuation of the class system, and the reason we have so many judges who are completely out of touch with the real world.
If you want to get a general idea of how it all works, you could try the novels of Caro Fraser, which are a bit soapy but are set in a barristers' chambers in London and are easy reads.
I will stop now! Sorry I promise to try not to go on so long in future! :-X The boarding school system, and the way it perpetuates the class system in the UK, is something that really gets me going >:(
Rosemary
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Little off subject but do enjoy Law and Order UK -- Law and Order with wigs!
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OhRosemary, now for the very first time, I understand your legal system. I was always puzzled by who did what.. Thanks for making it clear for all of us.
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I have always found it astonishing to think that the huge British Empire
began, and was ruled from, one tiny island with only a handful of people,
compared to it's conquests. The secret of course....they ruled the sea.
Thanks for that commentary, ROSEMARY. I found it very helpful. I especially
note your comment, Incidentally, only barristers can apply to become judges
- hence the further perpetuation of the class system, and the reason we have
so many judges who are completely out of touch with the real world.
It occurs to me that observation may be a key to 'Old Filth'.
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Thanks for the maps and the posts. Illuminating. I don't have time this morning to do them justice, but later....
However, I quickly found the British interest in Hong Kong in the 19-20th century, to give us an idea of Filth's prominence in that world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hong_Kong_(1800s%E2%80%931930s)
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RosemaryK~Thank you so much for all the info, I am totally ignorant to anything and everything British other than I am a bit fixated on the Royal family. You always come through for us since so many of our books are based in some region near or in England.
I felt so sad for Edward when he returned and his father gave him no attention. Then when Alistair says, "I say you can. I am your father." As the saying goes out of the mouth of babes when Edward replied, "You can't be....Because you've been here all the time without me." I've always felt British people to be a bit detached from emotions, and it makes me wonder if being sent away from their family at such a young age, and for such a long time is the effect of this.
I rather like the dynamics of Veneering and Old Filth, anxious to see if we see more of them.
Egads....I decided to listen to the interview from the link provided, a had to stop because it gives away too much from chapters I have not read yet.
Ciao for now~
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Ella, thanks for the link - it explains the British presence in Hong Kong - and the 100 year treaty and lease that was up in 1997 - as a result of the OPIUM WARS - and the British rights to trade silver and other goods for this sought-after drug 100 years before. So interesting!
Rosemary, just the person to explain the difference between the solicitors and the barristers (who wear the gowns and the wigs). And most interesting to learn that only barristers can become judges. Your post is so important to this discussion, I'd like to try to save it for when we close this Prediscussion and open the new one tomorrow.
Bellamarie...when we begin to discuss the opening chapters tomorrow, will you please copy your post into the new discussion? (Unless you're referring to information that comes in after the Wales chapter, okay?)
We're almost ready to begin...hope to see you on opening day!
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Geography was one of my favorite subjects in school, and in one of the classes I first heard about Hong Kong and was fascinated.
When we learned about the 19th century opium wars, I read everything I could lay my hands on about these wars, about trade, trade imbalance and trade expansion, and Hong Kong being ceded to Britain after these wars. The Japanese invaded the colony during WW II, but after Victory over Japan, British rule was restored.
When the British Empire fell with the Partition of India in 1947, Hong Kong remained British. But pressure from mainland china was brought to bear. Fifty years later, on July 1, 1997, the last British governor, Chris Patten, left the colony, as Rosemary has already said in an earlier post, and Hong Kong reverted to China.
In the eighties I read several books by Shirley MacLaine; in one of them (I can't remember the title) she describes a stay to Hong Kong, some of her favorite sights, restaurants, shops, which made me long to see for myself. (There was also a romance, with a Russian movie director, if I remember correctly, but that wasn't nearly as interesting for me as the description of the city and Kowloon, and the harbor ...)
I'd like to thank JoanP for including the maps: they demonstrate the vastness of the overseas Empire, effectively ruled from the much smaller British Isles. As Babi said in # 67, it is a marvel and amazing.
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Thanks for all this good information. Surely it will help us to understand the background for the story.
I think we're ready to move over to the new discussion-- just follow this yellow brick road - http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2274.0