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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Ship of Fools
Katherine Anne Porter
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/shipfools/foolscover.bmp)
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"The idea for Ship of Fools originated in a voyage that Katherine Anne Porter took from Mexico to Europe in 1931. Some of the passengers she encountered on the ship became the models for the characters in Ship of Fools. Porter began work on the novel in 1941 and it took her twenty years to complete.
Porter wrote that the title of her novel symbolizes “the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.” The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962." - Goodreads
Discussion Schedule:
January 2-7 Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback)
January 8-15 Part II High Sea (first half p. 71-222 - hardback) -ending with "in the morning, feeling very poorly, he asked Herr Denny by name, please to hand him his medicine."
January 16-23 Part II High Sea (second half p. 222 - 360 - hardback)
January 24-31 Part III The Harbors (p. 361-497 - hardback)
***** Some Topics for Consideration
January 2 - 7 Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback)
1. As you look over the Vera's passenger prior to the Embarkation, do any of them get your attention or interest?
2. Do you feel it must have been problematic for Porter to finish this novel in 1962, which she began in 1941 - based on notes she took in 1931?
3. "Why must it always be Germans who suffer in these damned foreign countries?" What does Rieber mean by this? How does Porter portray the German passengers on board the Vera? Does she give a reason why they were in Mexico? What attracts them back to Germany in 1931? Do you sense they are escaping, rather than heading home for a reason?
4. Are you having difficulty associating the many names with the characters described? What do you think of each of us choosing a character to shadow all over the ship?
5. Who is telling this story? Do you see any one of the passengers as the narrator?
6. Are you finding instances of racial or cultural bias that are stronger than anything you'd experience today? Do you believe things have changed that much? What did you think of the women? In which historical era do they appear to be?
7. How did the first class passengers regard the new passagers talken on board in Havana? Did any of them show compassion? Whose reaction seemed the most inappropriate?
8. Did you notice how much space is devoted to homely adolescent Elsa and her concern that she might never fall in love - or be loved? Do you think we'll hear more about her as the story progresses?
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Discussion Leaders: Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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This should be quite an interesting discussion. K A Porter based her "Ship of Fools" on observations of her fellow passengers on a sea voyage in 1931. She called the book an allegory that traces the rise of Nazism and looks metaphorically at the progress of the world on its "voyage to eternity." Her story is set in the autumn of the year 1931, can be seen as an attack on a world that allowed the Second World War to happen."
Her apt title was taken from a 15th century book, Ship of Fools (1494) by Sebastian Brant, "an allegory depicting a vessel populated by human inhabitants who are deranged, frivolous, or oblivious, passengers aboard a ship without a pilot, and seemingly ignorant of their own direction."
How far have we progressed - from the frivolous, oblivious 15th century passengers, Porter's pre-World War II passengers - the 1960's, as portrayed in the film by the same name? We are in this ultra-modern, stream-lined ship together; are we still pulling in opposite directions?
Please join us today - always room for one more fool - or otherwise!
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Yippee! I'm for the sea voyage.
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I may reconsider. I hadn't realized that this is a 'voyage to eternity.' I can suffer fools gladly, but only for a while, not forever.
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Jonathan - we'll have to speed up the voyage through eternity to fit into the month of November! I know YOU can do it!
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I want to discuss Ship of Fools in Nov. I am not sure about Elephant's Journey. Some of you stated that nothing is capitalized or punctuated normally. I have trouble with writings like that--must be the English teacher in me.
Sally
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Ship of Fools is well punctuated. Glad to have you, Sally!
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JoanP, I'm sorry that I did not make myself clear. I was referring to the punctuation in Elephant's Journey. My library does not have EJ. I downloaded a sample of it on my Kindle. It seemed rather tedious and disjointed; so I probably will not join in that discussion. I read Ship of Fools years ago and am looking forward to re-reading it and our discussion.
Sally
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Would like to read both. Perhaps Elephants in November and Ship in December (of course not to jolly a book!) Maybe the other way around ;D
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Sally, you did make yourself clear. I was commenting on the fact that K.A. Porter observed all the rules you former English teachers value. :D
That said, I just have to add - that you would probably fall in love with Saramago's writing in Elephant's Journey...
I am hearing from a growing number of you - that you would prefer to discuss Ship of Fools at a different time....from those who wish to discuss both books, but not during the same month. Since we usually opt for something more "jolly" in December...we can consider January for the discussion of Ship of Fools. - as The Elephant's Journey is off to such a flying start.
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January is OK with me for Ship of Fools
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January would be more convenient for me to discuss Ship of Fools, but regardless of the month chosen I would like to be included in the discussion.
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That's great, Jim! It seems that January it is - as it is most convenient for everyone, so far. Thanks!
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I would like to participate in a discussion of Ship of Fools whenever it is offered. suzanne
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That's good news, Susanne. We look forward to having you join in the discussion - in January. Welcome!
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Joan P: I'm a newcomer to these discussions so I'll need some direction. The idea sounds interesting and as I've said earlier I wish to be included. Thank you for suffering one of the "fools".
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Now don't be so hard on yourself, JimNT. :D We'll be discussing Ship of Fools in January. You will be hearing more about that as the time grows near. We'll have a discussion schedule posted here and you will be free to comment - just as you are doing now. See you then!
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Thanks for the Heads up on the TCM production of Ship of Fools in the Library, Sheila! Have you checked your TV listings for the time? I noticed that it is only showing once on Thursday - Nov.17 at 1:15 am EST At 10:15 PST... Will you check your TV listings and see if that's right?
I'd say it's a good movie in the big Hollywood tradition - star-studded cast. Viven Leigh, Simone Signouret - Lee Marvin, Jose Ferrer - I think Elizabeth Ashley is in it too. It has been called a "strange" adaptation of Katherine Ann Porter's novel.
We'll be discussing the real thing, the novel - here on SeniorLearn in January. You might enjoy comparing "Fools of1965" with those in 2012... Fools Folks are already gathering here...Please do join us!
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Joan, that is the same time "Ship of Fools" comes on here, also. I DVR'd it since I will probably be in bed by then.
Sally
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Please count me in, for our January discussion. I am looking forward to it.
Sheila
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I know I read Ship of Fools back when, because I was a voracious reader in the 60's and 70's and read everything I could. So I would like to participate in January and will pick up a copy to reread and see what comes back to me.
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Oh that's great nlhome, sheila, salan...the more the merrier. I don't remember if I read the book or saw the movie but the name Katherine Anne Porter is so familiar - and this is the only book she ever wrote. Welcome to the discussion!
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Do count me in. January is fine! Best Wishes for Thanksgiving!
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Mippy, great! It won't be January 1 - we'll need to recover from New Year's celebrations. ;D
And a happy thanksgiving to you too!
I've heard from several who viewed the movie that they didn't like it. I haven't seen it yet. I've heard similar comments elsewhere about the movie.
One reviewer called it a "strange" adaption of Katherine Anne Porter's book. I hope the book is better than the movie.
The book outsold every other American novel published in 1962. It was based on a journal Porter kept in 1931 during a sea voyage from Veracruz, Mexico, on her way to study in Bremerhaven, Germany, on a Guggenheim Fellowship, and the characters in the novel were based on real people she met during the trip.
The theme of the novel is the passengers' withdrawal from a life of disappointment, seeking a kind of utopia, and, "without knowing what to do next", setting out for a long voyage to pre-World-War-II Europe, a world of prejudice, racism and evil
This group of disparate characters sailing from Mexico to Europe aboard a German freighter and passenger ship is an allegory that traces the rise of Nazism and looks metaphorically at the progress of the world on its "voyage to eternity".
I'm really looking forward to see how we in the 21st century have "progressed" on our "voyage to eternity."
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I would like to participate in the discussion of this book in January.
Retired
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"Ship of Fools" wqs recently shown on TCM, and I recorded it. Last night, I watched it. WOW! It was very depressing. I had seen the movie, when it first came out, in the 1960s. I do not remember it being so depressing.
Now, I am not sure that I want to read the novel, in January. I will wait for January, and see how I feel about that.
Sheila
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I liked the movie. I thought it caught the spirit of the times, and the foolish ways of men and women. If it did seem a bit purgatorial at times, well, such is life. But still, mostly lovers' quarrels, and much ado about the usual things.
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Porter does imply her people are all on their way to heaven, doesn't she?
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Retired, so happy to hear that you are planning to join us in January! Welcome!
Sheila, I hear what you are saying about the movie adaptation of K.A. Porters book - the Hollywood adaptation is called "strange" by critics. When you consider the history of the book, it doesn't surprise me at all.
-In 1931 Katherine Anne Porter kept a journal during a sea voyage to study in Bremerhaven, Germany, on a Guggenheim Fellowship - The characters in the novel were based on real people she met during the trip.
- In 1940, she began the novel, but for different reasons, was unable to finish writing it until 1962 when it was published.
- The movie adaptation of the novel which KA Porter had set in the 1930's was adapted to portray 1960's "fools."
So right away, we have a major difference portraying two periods in time. Porter's first reaction to the film adaptation was that "too much was omitted from the book, distorting its message."
Jonathan, is it Porter who implies that people are all on their way to heaven - or is it the moviemakers who are trying to soothe the depressing tone of the film?
"The movie caught the spirit of the times, and the foolish ways of men and women." Jonathan
Have we always been so foolish? - Consider that title - from a 15th century book, Ship of Fools (1494) by Sebastian Brant, "an allegory depicting a vessel populated by human inhabitants who are deranged, frivolous, or oblivious, passengers aboard a ship without a pilot, and seemingly ignorant of their own direction."
Porter's Ship of Fools, also an allegory, was set in the autumn of the year 1931, can be seen as an attack on a world that allowed the Second World War to happen."
How far have we come in the 21st century - from the frivolous, oblivious 15th century, the pre-World War II years - the 1960's. We are still all in the same ship, but are we still pulling in opposite directions?
(http://ship-of-fools.com/media/logo/boat_tv_movie.gif)
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I'll be joining you on The Ship of Fools.
Glad to hear that Porter didn't like the film adaption of her book. I didn't either. It didn't inspire me to read the book at the time. Now I will give it a try.
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Really happy to hear that you will be joining us, JudeS! Welcome!
Recently I read this description of Porter's book - " an allegory that traces the rise of Nazism and looks metaphorically at the progress of the world on its "voyage to eternity". I can see where the movie may have depressed some of us - concentrating on the rise of Nazism, without sufficiently on progress on our voyage to eternity. That will be our task in this discussion.
Porter wrote the novel, basing her characters on real people she met during the trip. At first I thought she was a young girl on the way to study in Germany in 1932...but just read that she was born in 1890. I was buoyed by this - she was not an impressional young girl as she studied her travel companions.
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I like your approach, JudeS. Let's 'give it a try.' I believe you are the tenth to sign on for the voyage. And what a distinguished passenger list it is. So, the author was disappointed with the movie adaptation? I'm not surprised. She told others they weren't getting the point of her tale. On the other hand she welcomed contrary views about her book. And that's not surprising. The 'voyage' was something she hardly understood herself. And it did take forever. Using the information that Joan has supplied, the author was 42 when she set sail. The book was launched thirty years later.
She started out with a lot of enthusiasm. She considered titles like Happy Harbor, and The Promised Land. Somewhere along the way her fellow passengers turned into a pack of fools, and her weary endeavors over the endless years gave her the subtitle 'a voyage to eternity.' Haha, never have I met such a down-to-earth crowd, so caught up in the here and now. Just because it took her forever to write doesn't confer timeless meaning on these wretched lives.
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Jonathan, your enthusiasm is contagious! I hope it lasts throughout the voyage, that we don't disappoint as our own foolishness becomes more and more apparent!
Good news! Add another name to your passenger list! Marcie has just joined us! Talk about a distinguished passenger list!
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I'm very glad to join this group of readers. I won't say "passengers" since we might not want to regard ourselves in the way that the author regarded her fellow passengers ;)
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I'm not too good at these discussions, but I'll definitely be looking in and post occasionally.
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That's great, FlaJean. I think that the book will elicit lots of different viewpoints.
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Oh, I agree, Marcie. There is so much in this book that will elicit so many responses. Flajean - your thoughts and observations are as interesting as any one else's. We are so happy that you will be joining us. Welcome! Were you able to get a copy of the book yet?
Did you read the opening page - before Part I - the page that lists the characters? Are there any passengers on the list who got your attention?
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JoanP, Got a copy of the book today from the library.
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That's great, FlaJean! Have you had a chance to read the passenger list at the front of the book yet? I think it's going to take a while to become familiar with them. First impressions? Do any of the characters catch your attention?
I remember reading that KAPorter kept a notebook on this actual cruise - back in 1931. We're told that somewhere between 1940 and 1962, she wrote Ship of Fools based on this novel. Don't you wonder whether she wrote herself into the novel? If so, which character might she be - just from looking over the passenger list? Porter was in her early 40's when she sailed from Mexico to Germany.
Does anyone know anything about her personal history? Had she ever married? Or maybe she didn't - maybe she's the narrator
It's interesting to note that Porter kept the journal in the summer of 1931 - on her way to Germany. And then wrote the novel, during and after World War II.
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I have to admit to not knowing anything about Porter until now. Except that there was a short story of hers in every anthology. Now I've read several and they are good. And I've started the Unrue biography. What an amazing writing career. It seems she was voyaging all her life, with rough seas much of the time. With a husband in every port. She admitted to three, but it's not clear which of the five or six she was remembering. She was a great mixer and fun to be with. A very seasoned traveller with a keen eye for detail.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Ship of Fools
Katherine Anne Porter
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/shipfools/foolscover.bmp)
|
"The idea for Ship of Fools originated in a voyage that Katherine Anne Porter took from Mexico to Europe in 1931. Some of the passengers she encountered on the ship became the models for the characters in Ship of Fools. Porter began work on the novel in 1941 and it took her twenty years to complete.
Porter wrote that the title of her novel symbolizes “the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.” The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962." - Goodreads
Discussion Schedule:
January 2-7 Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback)
January 8-15 Part II High Sea (first half p. 71-222 - hardback) -ending with "in the morning, feeling very poorly, he asked Herr Denny by name, please to hand him his medicine."
January 16-23 Part II High Sea (second half p. 222 - 360 - hardback)
January 24-31 Part III The Harbors (p. 361-497 - hardback)
***** Some Topics for Consideration
January 2 - 7 Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback)
1. As you look over the Vera's passenger prior to the Embarkation, do any of them get your attention or interest?
2. Do you feel it must have been problematic for Porter to finish this novel in 1962, which she began in 1941 - based on notes she took in 1931?
3. "Why must it always be Germans who suffer in these damned foreign countries?" What does Rieber mean by this? How does Porter portray the German passengers on board the Vera? Does she give a reason why they were in Mexico? What attracts them back to Germany in 1931? Do you sense they are escaping, rather than heading home for a reason?
4. Are you having difficulty associating the many names with the characters described? What do you think of each of us choosing a character to shadow all over the ship?
5. Who is telling this story? Do you see any one of the passengers as the narrator?
6. Are you finding instances of racial or cultural bias that are stronger than anything you'd experience today? Do you believe things have changed that much? What did you think of the women? In which historical era do they appear to be?
7. How did the first class passengers regard the new passagers taken on board in Havana? Did any of them show compassion? Whose reaction seemed the most inappropriate?
8. Did you notice how much space is devoted to homely adolescent Elsa and her concern that she might never fall in love - or be loved? Do you think we'll hear more about her as the story progresses?
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Discussion Leaders: Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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Jonathan, that's great that you're reading a biography of Porter. We'll have to come to you to get the juicy tidbits... I mean the facts about her life :-)
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Marcie, I agree. Jonathan will be an invaluable resource on the author's life. At his mention of Darlene Unrue's biography of KAPorter, I found this interesting link you might find of interest -
http://www.bibliobuffet.com/archive-index-readings/363-the-jilting-of-katherine-anne-porter-032507
From this link -
"Does anyone read Katherine Anne Porter’s fiction anymore? Porter, whose powerful Collected Stories about coming of age, the fear of death, and the search for love and home won the National Book Award in 1964, appears to be much neglected in today’s literary landscape. Although Darlene Harbour Unrue’s masterful biography, Katherine Anne Porter: The Life of an Artist (University of Mississippi Press; $30), lacks deep critical engagement with Porter’s fiction, Unrue offers us an engaging portrait of a woman who spent much her life weaving her own life into a fictional masterpiece. "
So we just might find her in one (or more) of these characters aboard the ship. I see two forty-somethings on the passenger list. One is an American. I'll be keeping my eye on Mary Treadwell...
Thanks, Jonathan!
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Marcie, I enjoyed the Unrue biography. What a life! Applying it to her book may be difficult. But then she herself said, don't look for facts in my fictions. She wished to be thought of as an artist.
Strange, isn't it, to be setting out on this voyage on the hundredth anniversary year of the Titanic tragedy.
Thanks, JoanP, for the link to the review. It's very informative. But I was never certain, after every marital crisis, and/or love affair, who did the jilting.
Tomorrow, then, if we can get out of Veracruz alive.
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Welcome aboard the Vera! Are you ready for this voyage into the past? Ah, but what "past" are we revisiting? the 1930's as captured in the author's journal detailing the actual passengers on the voyage in August, 1931? Or has Porter edited them in the light of history, as the book wasn't finished until 1962?
We'll be spending the first week getting acquainted with these passengers. I'll continue to look for the author in that passenger list - though she warns us to consider the work as fiction. Thanks for that, Jonathan. Can't wait to hear everyone's first impressions on the passenger list.
I find myself wondering what was going on in Germany when the Vera set sail. Did you notice the number of returning Germans on the passenger ship? Did you find that unusual, or no?
ps. HAPPY HAPPY NEW YEAR, everyone! Isn't the first day of the new year always so promising with the possibilty that things will be better than the year left behind?
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Hope there is room for one more fool/passenger on the Vera. I would love to join the discussion. Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas and wish you all a Happy New Year!!
Ciao for now~
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We're about to launch and welcome everyone aboard!
Joan, you comment on the number of Germans on the ship. It seems that Mexico (the originating port of the ship) was a somewhat popular immigration destination for Germans. During 1931 to 1940, 21,284 German-speaking immigrants arrived. See the chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_immigration_to_Mexico. It would seem likely that a number of Germans would be on the ship to visit, or return to, their home country.
Including a number of Germans on the ship would give Porter the opportunity to portray a cross-section of the views and dispositions of the German population.
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I'm here. I don't have the book yet. Will go searching.
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Happy New Year! Bon Voyage!
Will try to come aboard shortly, after catching up in Latin. Rather tied up at the moment with a surprise National Latin Test assignment in Latin class.
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I am struggling with this book. I've had to renew it twice and I'm still only a little ways into it. But I'm trying. So far I don't think much of the passengers. But I haven't spent much time with them.
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It's good to see you here, hats, Mippy and nlhome.
Perhaps not all of the passengers are meant to elicit our sympathy. A wikipedia article says that:
"The ship of fools is an allegory that has long been a fixture in Western literature and art. The allegory depicts a vessel populated by human inhabitants who are deranged, frivolous, or oblivious passengers aboard a ship without a pilot, and seemingly ignorant of their own direction....
According to Jose Barchilon's introduction to Madness and Civilization,
'Renaissance men developed a delightful, yet horrible way of dealing with their mad denizens: they were put on a ship and entrusted to mariners because folly, water, and sea, as everyone then 'knew', had an affinity for each other. Thus, 'Ship of Fools' crisscrossed the sea and canals of Europe with their comic and pathetic cargo of souls. Some of them found pleasure and even a cure in the changing surroundings, in the isolation of being cast off, while others withdrew further, became worse, or died alone and away from their families. The cities and villages which had thus rid themselves of their crazed and crazy, could now take pleasure in watching the exciting sideshow when a ship full of foreign lunatics would dock at their harbors.' "
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I was finding S.o.F. a very difficult read . So this morning I just grabbed a book off the shelf to read with breakfast. Serendipity- It was a book of short stories and the first story was by Katherine Porter:"The Downward Path to Wisdom". This story too is depressing. It is written from the perspective of a four year old boy who experiences the mysterious terrors of childhood. His elders use the boy as a club against each other.The writing is brilliant but the story left me depressed.
I wonder, Jonathan, what her life was like? Was it terribly dark and full of evil people?Can you give us some insight from the book you read?
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Hi, everybody. This is going to be a jolly good discussion. I found myself at sea along with the rest of you, after only a few pages. Baffling isn't it, being presented with such a strange milieu of revolutionary Mexico and harried characters. Not a sympathetic one in the lot. Well, maybe the 'small, emaciated Indian sitting on a bench under a tree' in Veracruz, waiting calmly and patiently for his executioners, deserves our pity. Perhaps they all will in the end.
I can't understand why KAP chose Ship of Fools for her title. These people boarding the Vera are not the 'crazed and crazies' of an earlier ship, as described in Marcie's post. Doctors and lawyers. Teachers and publishers. Engineers and artists. A tobacconist. A travelling salesman.
Why off to Germany? They all have their reasons. Even the ironical one in the hint that Germany is a place of safety and order. Contrast that to the turmoil in Veracruz. And what artistic purpose does the artist see in this curious foursome. Cat, parrot, monkey and dog? Don't they put on a show?
JudeS, I got the impression that KAP lived a very long and exciting life. Saw the world. Knew all the right people. Loved jewellry and a place of her own. No abiding place, mind you, but lots of them. Of course she was dealt her share of sorrow and troubles.
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Marking my spot.
Sally
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So happy to welcome our new passengers - we do have some deck chairs left for you! Bellamarie, Hats, Mippy, Sally - were you able to locate the book? Let us know if you are reading the hardcover, the paperback or the Kindle version, OK? This gets better and better. Welcome!
Please don't give up on it just yet, nlholme - and JudeS. If the story seems to be a downer, why not try using it as a point of comparison for our own modern day ship? Have we improved since the period Porter writes about? (Hopefully that won't be even more depressing. :) How far into the book are you? The first part - the Embarkation - is quite confusing with so many names, I'll admit. Difficult to keep them straight, isn't it?
What do you think of each of us choosing a character to shadow all over the ship? Do you want to select a character or two and we'll try it? You will become the expert on the chosen character... I'm not sure it would work, but it it's worth a try, I think?
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I just started reading last night, am only 25 pages into it. What strikes me so far is Porter's seeming total lack of sympathy with any of her characters. She sees them all clearly, describing them accurately, but seems to be sneering at them all. You can't really understand someone without at least a little sympathy, so maybe it will surface eventually.
I'm still sorting out the characters; they're all thrown at us at once, without even names attached at first. I'm particularly bad at this, but the cast in the front is a big help, and I'm getting there.
Jonathan, I'm guessing that the passengers are "fools" because they are deluded about themselves, about what is happening in the world around them, about the disasters to come.
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Hello PatH! Happy you are joining us. I agree, at first glance, none of the characters evoke our sympathy. Do you think KA Porter could write this entire book without our sympathizing, relating to, or pitying any of them? Jonathan, you've asked an interesting question - why did she choose Ship of Fools for her title? Marcie referred to the 15th century book Ship of Fools (1494) by Sebastian Brant, which served as the inspiration for Bosch's famous painting, Ship of Fools: "a ship—an entire fleet at first—sets off from Basel to the paradise of fools." Porter has referred to this work as her inspiration for the title.
The Vera is heading for Germany - Do you think Porter is referring to Germany as the paradise of fools? (What's going on in Germany in 1931/1932? This many be important.)
I thought this comment from that site was interesting - "Some of them (the passengers) found pleasure and even a cure in the changing surroundings, in the isolation of being cast off..." So Jude, there may be hope that Porter's characters will change - for the better?
Here's the famous Bosch work -
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Narrenschiff_Titelblatt.jpg/463px-Narrenschiff_Titelblatt.jpg)
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Good evening all..I'm hoping to get the book tomorrow since the library was close today. It was not avaiable for my nook-color. So disappointed :(
Looking forward to the journey with all of you. I must admit when it comes to history or geography i am so awful for lack of interest, so i will rely on all of you to help me out. Be back when i've read the chapters.
Ciao for now...
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I'm glad to see more aboard our ship. I hope that those of you who are having difficulty getting into the book, will stay with us. The book is a very different kind of writing/reading for me too.
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Good news!
Got over the hump and all of a sudden I am aboard the ship and want to know what happens. Finished part one and have started on part two.
However I did mark a few places. One in particular:Page 59 (paperback0-Herr Reiber talks about his feelings towards the displaced sugarcane workers...Lizzi Spckenkieker repeats his words.."I would do this for them: i would put them all in a big oven and turn on the gas." Oh she said....isn't that the most original idea you ever heard?"
This is a reminder of the gassing in the concentration camps. I imagine that Herr Reiber is not one of the "nice people" on this journey.
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I tried to read more last night, but only five pages and I was too weary. The characters are just getting situated on board and the writing is good enough that I can feel the physical closeness - not a pleasant feeling for me - and imagine some of the smells.
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'the physical closeness - not a pleasant feeling for me
Good point, nlhome, and it seems to be the feeling of others on the ship as they find themselves dismayed by their cabinmates. This is first class? Imagine, putting Herr Rieber and Herr Loewenthal in the same cabin! (It may be premature, but I've decided Herr Loewenthal is the only civilized human being on the ship, and he has decided to make the best of it).
Is there no humor in the book? The unmarried lovers, Jenny and David, are assigned different cabins! Just think, says Jenny, over drinks in the bar, 26 nights sleeping in separate beds. We'll get to know each other better.
Don't worry about the geography, Bellamarie. It's all about human relations, and you're good at that.
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Marking my place so i can come back and read the comments. I have the book, but am not sure i will have the time to keep up w/ the readings.
I read it in the 60s but remember nothing.
Jean
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nlhome - really happy you are staying with it. (Maybe you shouldn't wait til bedtime to read it, though. :D )After reading your post, I wondered if Porter wants the ship to smell - and the passengers be uncomfortable around one another. Her writing sure makes you get that idea. The Germans seem to be the only ones who approve of one another - so far.
Jonathan, since you have decided Herr Loewenthal is the only civilized being on the ship, will you "volunteer" to follow him through the journey to see if he succeeds at making the best of it? He seems so lonely to me. Hope he finds a friend. Is it simply because he's Jewish that he is kept at arm's length?
Jude - glad you brought up Herr Rieber's pitiless comment about putting the starving migrant workers into an oven. This is an example of how Porter's writing must have been difficult for her - writing of the poverty and inhumane treatment of these workers in 1932...and then writing the book AFTER WWII, with the knowledge of the gas chambers. I didn't understand what made Lizzi giggle at this inane idea, though. It just didn't fit logically in the conversation. In fact, I thought Rieber's comment was kind of clumsy in that context. Maybe Porter just wanted to remind us of what is to come.
Since you have put the spotlight on one of the "not nice" people on the journey, how about you follow him through the crossing and see if you can learn more about him - and what motivates him? Sorry to ask you to associate with him - but someone had to do it!
Bella, don't worry about your lack of historical knowledge. Jean might not be able to keep up with the readings, but she is something of a history buff if I'm not mistaken. 1931/32 in Germany. What is Hitler up to at this point in time?
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Hello all:
I completed the novel. Had to return it to the library.
I copied the first few pages devoted to the passenger list and assigned cabin mates
to keep my thoughts organized.
The middle aged woman who keeps a notebook and makes notes with her observations of the
passengers behaviors would remind me of the author at work . I wrote her name down in my notes ( not
Ms. Treadwell ) but I cannot locate her by name.
The observations are certainly not flattering .
The German passengers are portrayed as very Nationalistic , Germans and Germany the best .
The antisematism for Jews is very evident. Herr Reibner denies this later by remarking that he knows
many arabs and he likes them.
However, we read later that he and some other Germans are insrtrumental in getting Herr Freytag
a Christian German who they learn is married to a Jew moved from the Captain's table to sit alone with Mr. Lowenthal who is a known Jew.
Mr. Lowenthal is not very welcoming to him either when he becomes his table mate.
He is very disapproving of mixed marriages among Christians and Jews .
nfrridentity . The separation of the "other".
As I read on , I was mindful of the Horror ahead in Germany and the German philosophy as Master race and the subjugation of others who were considered inferior due to body deformity or ethnic inferiority.
Gypsies, Jews .
I wanted to shout to some of those passengers " turn back your lives are in danger ."
The relationships depicted among the German spouses could remind one of the male dominated female.
Point in fact I did not like any of the passengers described on this ship .
We do not learn from reading what criteria the Captain used to decide which passengers would be
selected to sit at the Captain"s table.
Enough said for now . Will stay on board to see the events unfold.
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In 1931, Hitler was the leader of the Nazi Party. They had a surprise victory in 1930, coming in second in the voting for the Reichstag. In March 1931, Hitler lost the election for president to Hindenburg. There were still laws against beating up Jews as their party was doing, using the Jews and communists as scapegoats for the depression and laws were passed outlawing the Nazi party, at the time having a membership of 800,000. But thru the spring the 3 political parties battled each other physically. At the end of July the Nazi Party won 14 million votes and Hitler was made chancellor. Germans who opposed him failed to unite and Hitler moved to consolidate his power.
Here's a site w/ more info
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/success.htm
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If she had finished this book in 1931 it would have been a very different story. Reading it now we are looking through the lens of WWII. Has she explained somewhere what was her purpose in 1931?
I find the German Jews the most interesting because we know their fate. Also the American Denny was the central character in the movie (Robert Mitchum) but he doesn't stand out in the first part of the book.
Think of the German women as rather frumpy. Probably didn't fit in in Mexico - house fraus.
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"Has she explained somewhere what was her purpose in 1931?"
Good morning, kidsal! You've asked an interesting question. I think KA Porter was keeping a journal back then - she was on her way to Germany to study. (Does anyone know what she was studying? If memory serves, she was on a Guggenheim scholarship.) It wasn't until the early 1940's that she began to write her novel. I noticed Mary Treadwell, a 40 year old divorcee (like Porter) also kept a journal. Like retired, I'm forgetting the name of the female German journalist, also keeping notes on the journey. Does anyone remember her name?
It's funny that the American Denny was the central character in the movie - he didn't get my attention at all in the first part of the book.
retired - good to hear from you too. Interesting comments on Herr Lowenthal - especially when you consider what Jean has posted on Hitler's rise to power during this period. (Thank you, Jean!) His Mein Kampf is well known at this time. Probably beyond Germany? I don't think we know yet WHY Lowenthal, a Jew, would be returning to Germany at this time. And why Wilhelm Freytag would be planning to bring his Jewish wife and her mother to live in Germany. You're observations are right on. These passengers are not accepting of one another's differences.
"Hitler focused his propaganda against the Versailles Treaty, the "November criminals," the Marxists and the visible, internal enemy No. 1, the "Jew," who was responsible for all Germany's domestic problems. Hitler's first written utterance on political questions dating from this period (1920) emphasized that what he called "the anti-Semitism of reason" must lead "to the systematic combating and elimination of Jewish privileges. Its ultimate goal must implacably be the total removal of the Jews."http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler.html
So, do we agree? These passengers, as presented in the opening days of the journey - are not at all likeable. Would you prefer to spend the journey on the ship's deck, with a good book, rather than get to know your fellow travelers?
I'm hoping that as we sail along, we'll get to know them better - understand them better and maybe even like one or two.
On the other hand, KA Porter may have other plans...
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On the other hand, KA Porter may have other plans.
Right on, Joan. This is a very complex piece of writing. Porter worked on it for twenty years, or was it thirty? She had achieved success with her short stories and assorted other writings: reportage, essays and reviews, etc. To achieve true literary status she needed at least one novel. And this novel represents her odyssey to reach that goal. A lifetime of experience is worked into her story.
I keep thinking of Jude's question: I wonder what her life was like. Was it terribly dark and full of evil people?
I didn't think so reading the biography. Certainly there was a lot of sturm und drang along the way, but she kept her head all along and steered her course to the distant shore, observing and pondering everything along the way, not least of all her own life. This book, I feel, is an excellent artistic account of the arrival of the modern woman. Perplexed but determined. Just look how much there is on relationships.
Of course, it's also a political novel, a commentary on her times. We should slowly become more understanding about all the characters. They are not at all evil. With the exception of those two little monsters, Ric and Rac. And how well they play their role. In Porter's political spectrum they must represent the Anarchists. Or Terrorists?
I'll be very happy to keep my eye on Herr Lowenthal. Just wonderful having him share a cabin with Herr Rieber. The one supplies women with a wardrobe and the other supplies her with religious accessories. That should supply them both with a common ground for cooperation.
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Joan P
I really wanted to follow Herr Karl Glocken, the hunchback. He so reminded me of a High Schhol English teacher we had:Dr. Fuchs. Now it was a different era but Dr. Fuchs (also German) was married and the father of twin daughters.
Herr Glocken would also probably killed as a "freak" by Hitler's people.
I don't mind reporting from time to time on Herr Rieber but it feels creepy to be responsible for him. Also it probably means constantly being forced to see the most negtive of thoughts and actions in this "happy" group of passengers.
Is there someone else interested in followingHerr Reiber or at least sharing him?
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I appreciate the varied comments, here. I too see what you are all saying; the book certainly paints a dark picture of most all of the people so far. In the introduction to the passengers in Veracruz, the people hardly seem human. They are "herded" everywhere. There are many analogies comparing individuals to animals: peahens, goats, mules, etc. It's all very unsavory.
I keep thinking about what might have made Katherine Anne Porter write this novel...and write it the way she did. JoanP asked what was happening in 1931 when Porter was taking notes for the novel and mabel tells us about the rise of Hitler during a time when Germany was impoverished and its people didn't trust its government.
Now I'm thinking about 1941 when Porter began to actually compose the novel. By the end of that year, the U.S. would finally be drawn into the War. People must have been on different sides of whether the U.S. should fight, whether Hitler was truly bad or wrong. Perhaps, Porter was writing to wake people up to how they view the world around them and themselves in that world.
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JudeS, let's see if anyone else is willing to take on Herr Reiber. If not, I'll shadow him.
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From www.nebraskapress.unl.edu. Because Mexico’s German community in the early 1930s was small and already organized into a cohesive social unit, the Nazi Propaganda Ministry incorporated the Nazi ideology into its preexisting structure. A small German colony had a long tradition in Mexico, dating back to the nineteenth century. In the first half of the 1930s between six and seven thousand German nationals resided in Mexico. In the twentieth century, German nationals contributed to the Mexican economy in the automotive, electrical, construction, and pharmaceutical industries.
Business dealings between the two countries were interrupted during World War I, which coincided with the Mexican Revolution. During the 1920s and 1930s German nationals once again became involved in the Mexican economy. Although many German families assimilated into Mexican national culture, the German colony in Mexico maintained a strong sense of solidarity and a strong loyalty to the fatherland. German businessmen belonged to exclusive social organizations, and families sent their children to German schools in an attempt to maintain a sense of German identity. German organizations promoted conservative, nationalist ideals among their members and encouraged members to speak the German language and practice German customs.
A Nazi propaganda apparatus emerged and became an important part of the German community between 1935 and 1940. The Nazi Party attempted to implant the idea that German nationals were culturally and intellectually superior to Mexicans. Hitler reorganized nearly all previously existing German social organizations into the Centro Alemán, a new community group controlled by the Nazi Party. The party controlled its membership, disallowing children of mixed German-Mexican marriage and even Germans with Mexican spouses. The party also aimed to capture the loyalties of German youth through the Hitler Youth who were being trained eventually to become members of the Nazi Party. The Colegio Alemán, a German school that was also brought under the supervision of the Nazi Party, complemented the Hitler Youth.
MEXICO CITY, May. 13 1942
German Jews in Mexico, who have not obtained Mexican citizenship - and most of the refugees fall into this category - are being evacuated from coastal areas along the Atlantic and Pacific shores, under a decree issued by the Ministry of the Interior ordering the removal of all Axis nationals from strategic points on the coast, the Mexican press reports today. The Mexican Government is not differentiating between nationals of Germany who are in the country for commercial reasons and those who have fled from Germany since the rise of Hitler.
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'What was her purpose in 1931? A good question from kidsal.
Porter was hardly out of her Mexican phase in 1931. She had been absorbed in Mexican art, and got caught up in Mexico's revolutionary ways. She tended to be sympathetic to the underdog, active, for example, in the Sacco-Vanzetti affair in 1927. In 1923 she wrote:
I write about Mexico because that is my familiar country. I was born near San Antonio, Texas. My father lived part of his youth in Mexico, and told me enchanting stories of his life there; therefore the land did not seem strange to me even at my first sight of it. During the Madero revolution I watched a street battle between Maderistas and Federal troops from the window of a cathedral...
My stories are fragments, each one touching some phase of a versatile national temperament, which is a complication of simplicities: but I like best the quality of aesthetic magnificence, and, above all, the passion for individual expression without hypocrisy, which is the true genius of the (Mexican) race.
All the things I write of I have first known, and they are real to me. Taken from Why I write about Mexico.
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Quite an interesting independent woman, Jonathan. Let's remember she's on her way to Germany in 1932 - on a Guggenheim fellowship. She's about 42 years old at the time.
"Porter's first volume of stories, Flowering Judas (1930), impressed critics, although it did not sell very well. It won a Guggenheim fellowship (an award with a cash prize intended to be used for study or research) that allowed her to study abroad, and after a brief stay in Mexico she sailed in 1932 to Bremerhaven, Germany (which provided the setting for her only novel, Ship of Fools ). "
Her cash prize then is to be used for study - or research. From your post, I noted her interest in Mexico's revolutionary ways. and her concern for the underdog. Is this what she is researching? I can understand why she would be keeping a journal on the passengers on this voyage then.
retired - there is another passenger on the ship besides Mary Treadwell who is taking notes one this trip. A German woman - Frau Rittesdorf. I'll shadow these two ladies - unless you want to? I'm looking for the author in one of these two characters.)
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Are you finding it confusing when attempting to view these passengers through the lens of history - as they would have appeared in 1931, unaware of the impending horrors associated with Nazi Germany. Marcie reminds us that Porter referred to her notes of 1932 and began the book in 1942. How do you see these passengers? To me, they're living in the 1930's, not the 1040's - oblivious of where the world is headed..
kidsal - you bring revealing information -
" Hitler reorganized nearly all previously existing German social organizations into the Centro Alemán, a new community group controlled by the Nazi Party. The party controlled its membership, disallowing children of mixed German-Mexican marriage and even Germans with Mexican spouses."
And then this - "German Jews in Mexico, who have not obtained Mexican citizenship - and most of the refugees fall into this category - are being evacuated from coastal areas along the Atlantic and Pacific shores
So Wilhelm Freytag is on his way to Germany to fetch his Jewish wife, Mary Champagne and her mother - to bring them back to Mexico to live. He thinks she doesn't appear to be Jewish - blond hair, etc, but from kidsal's information, it seems they must hide her nationality, even in Mexico, doesn't it?
We still don't know why Herr Lowenthal would be going to Germany at this time. Is he aware of the danger?
I'm willing to bet that most of the passengers on the ship have something to hide - and that after spending 26 days or so - isolated together in rather close proximity, they will begin to reveal their true selves. It's nearly inevitable.
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In her book "The Lacuna" , Barbara Kingsolver writes about the ongoing fight between Stalinists and Trotskyists in Cayocan near Mexico City in the 1930's( till Trotsky's murder in 1940).
I didn't at first connect the two books but when I did, I realized how much Kingsolver gave me in understanding the people of Mexico ,especially the Intellectuals, of that periiod. As an example Trotsky was extremely close to Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo (of German Jewish extract), while the painter Siqueiros was a Stalinist who hired thugs to kill Trotsky. (they sprayed his home with machine guns but injured only his Grandson.)
If Porter was following the politics of Mexico and Germany during this period, I can understand her interest in bringing out
the tragic fates of those returning to Germany, a country that had changed dramatically from 1925 to the Nazi regime of the 1930s.
Her affinity for Mexico and her sojurn in Germany gave her an excellent background on which to base her story.
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Joan:
I reviewed my notes again.
Herr Lowenthal was traveling to Germany to visit his sister only .
Frau Rittersdorf was keeping a notebook writing her observations
of some of the passengers behavior. Perhaps she is a journalist
or a proxy for the author of this novel.
I answered my own question when revewing my notes.
The criteria for choice of seating at the Captain's table
was essentially the small group of First Class passengers.
This novel was quite an interesting choice for discussion.
I can not say that I liked any of the passengers .
I will stay on board to watch events unfold.
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I don't think I'll ever keep up with the discussion, but I try to read. Unfortunately right now I can only read at bedtime, and that means I'm already sleepy. I'm getting to know the characters a little better now. The time period is interesting. Think it's the same setting as another book I'm thinking of reading, and the between the war period of some of the Masterpiece programs, thought of course different settings.
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nlholme, good for you! Keep reading. You aren't the only one having trouble keeping up. We thought that once we slowly read the first section, the reading would go faster. I'm finding this is not the case. Please don't anyone give up. Marcie and I are right now discussing ways to slow down a bit, break down Part II even further. We could extend the discussion into February. Will that help? Can those of you reading library books renew?
"If Porter was following the politics of Mexico and Germany during this period, I can understand her interest in bringing out
the tragic fates of those returning to Germany, a country that had changed dramatically from 1925 to the Nazi regime of the 1930s." Thanks, Jude. It sure sounds as if she is aware of the politics of Mexico and Germany, doesn't it?
Thanks, retired. I had forgotten that Herr Lowenthal was returning to Germany to visit his sister. It would be a good idea if he brought her back with him. Of course no one knows of the impending atrocities - but there are already signs that life is not good for the Jews in Germany and will not get better.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Ship of Fools
Katherine Anne Porter
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/shipfools/foolscover.bmp)
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"The idea for Ship of Fools originated in a voyage that Katherine Anne Porter took from Mexico to Europe in 1931. Some of the passengers she encountered on the ship became the models for the characters in Ship of Fools. Porter began work on the novel in 1941 and it took her twenty years to complete.
Porter wrote that the title of her novel symbolizes “the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.” The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962." - Goodreads
Discussion Schedule:
January 2-7 Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback)
January 8-15 Part II High Sea (first third: p. 71-170 - hardback) -ending before: "The Cuban Medical students, a hermetic society."
January 16-23 Part II High Sea cont. (p.171 - 274- hardback) - ending before "The greasers are up to something. Denny to David" -
January 24-31 Part II High Sea cont. (p. 274 - 360 - hardback)
February 1-end Part III The Harbors (p. 361-497 - hardback)
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*****
Some Topics for Consideration
January 8 - 15 Part II High Sea (p. 71-170 hardback)
-ending before: "The Cuban Medical students, a hermetic society."
1. Jenny refers to herself as a fool, I think more than once. Have other characters referred to themselves as fools? (from nlholme) Have you noticed Jenny's character develop as the story progresses? Do you find any of the characters to be comfortable in his/her own skin? Would you call them "fools?"
2. What characterizations of the person you are "shadowing" (if you are shadowing one) or of any of the people on the ship were of particular interest to you in this section?
3. Are you a cat person or a dog person? There are many animal metaphors throughout this section. Which ones stand out for you?
4. What do the German fraus have in common? What do they expect to find on their return to Germany after living some time in Mexico? Are the German women passengers as alike one another as they appeared to be in the opening chapter?
5. Are the following references a possible commentary on Hitler's Germany? Are there other references you found?
---(p. 81) Herr Hutton says in reference to his dog, Bebe, "How blood and training do form and sustain character. Look at the good animal: he will never fail us."
---(p. 97) Herr Lowenthal's thoughts: "Ah, he needed to be more careful and clever than he was -- he suffered waves of fright sometimes because he feared he was not clever enough, they would play him a trick someday and he would not know until it was too late. It occurred to him often that he was living in a world so dangerous he wondered how he dared to go to sleep at night."
6. There are quite a few references to religion and also to sex and to love in this section. What are some that you found? What do you think Porter is saying about religion? about sex? about love?
7. How are the Spanish dancers characterized? Why are they travelling first class? Do you find the Spanish twins, Ric and Rac frightening? If so, why?
8. "Mexicans loathe the Americans, despise the Jews, hate the Spaniards, distrust the English, admire the French and love the Germans." Are you finding this generalized statement to be accurate among the passengers aboard the Vera?
Discussion Leaders: Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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I can see where a misanthrope might really enjoy this book. The rest of us will be left shaking our heads over this motley crowd. Even the narrator is prejudiced, it seems to me, in dismissing them all as a bunch of misfits of one kind or another. But she's great at pairing them up. Jenny and David for example. And then Jenny and Elsa. Is there method in this madness. And that is only for the romantic angle in the novel.
I've just become aware of the questions. Very thought-provoking.
I have wondered why Totsky chose Mexico as a refuge, or a place where he might be out of Stalin's reach.
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I finally got my book so I will try to catch up on my reading and be back to read the posts. Can't wait to set sail with all of you.
Ciao for now~
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I'm finding I read the book in chunks--have now read the second chunk, which brings me up to date. I still can't like any of the characters very much, but I have sympathy for many of them.
Someone asked if Porter has a sense of humor. I don't see much, and there is none of the lightheartedness that often goes along with humor, but she makes a lot of very clever, insightful remarks that are a sort of dark humor. Examples:
Frau Lutz, talking to her husband: "...and long years of deeply cherished, never-to-be-settledgrudges lay in her tone."
David, observing Jenny: "...even when Jenny seemed intelligent, or sincere, he still distrusted her female mind, crooked and cloudy by nature: she was no doubt asking questions designed to lead the man to talk about himself, meaning to trap him into small confidences and confessions that later she could use as a weapon against him when needed."
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Marcie and I are right now discussing ways to slow down a bit, break down Part II even further. We could extend the discussion into February. Will that help? Can those of you reading library books renew?
I'm good with whatever schedule anyone else wants. I think I'll mostly keep up if we stick to 4 weeks, but don't mind having more time. I own the book, so don't have access problems. Jean, I also read the book when it came out, but have only the dimmest memory of it.
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I think extending the book is a good idea. I am having trouble "slogging" through it. Easy to put down, hard to pick up again. I have my own copy; so have no trouble with extension.
Sally
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Ok, we've adjusted the schedule - see it in the heading. We'll start discussing Part II tomorrow as planned - but not cover quite as many pages. Pages 171 - 274 (hardback) is still quite a few to "slog" through, Sally - let's see how this goes - once the action begins.
PatH - how did you manage to read so quickly? What is your secret?
" I still can't like any of the characters very much, but I have sympathy for many of them. PatH"
I guess I feel the same way, Pat.
Which leads me to the question - is it possible to enjoy a book, if you don't enjoy the company of the characters? Do you spend time with people with whom you have nothing in common? Why was this book such a best seller when it came out in 1962? Is there something we're missing?
Maybe the critical eye of the narrator is someone we can appreciate. Is the narrator Porter? Do we share her distaste for these people on board the ship?
I think I'd like to spend time with her on this ship. Although Jonathan is finding her "prejudiced in dismissing them all as a bunch of misfits of one kind or another."
I think the author is succeeding if she is attempting to enlist our disdain - though she seems to risk losing us, don't you think? She'd better hurry up and portray them with more understanding - and sympathy.
What did you think of the ship's doctor, Dr. Schumann? I'm going to watch him - he seems noteworthy. Aren't there other first class passengers who express pity for the steerage passengers who boarded the ship in Havana? Did you notice how many of them there are? Eight hundred and seventy six! This ship is much bigger than I had imagined.
We're watching for you in our wake, Bella , Hats and Mippy! Don't give up!
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Yes-Please extend the time to complete part 2 of this book. I am a very fast reader but I can't take too much of these people at one time. Porter is an in depth writer and there is much to think about on almost every page.
I was surprised that she made the Captain of the ship(pages 103& 104) rather stereotypical. Perhaps we will see his inner thoughts at a later date.
Jomnathan:In answer to your question...
Trotsky had left Russia to escape the Stalinists who were plotting to kill him. He spent time in many countries(Norway, England etc.) always on the run. Mexico offered him the possibility of remaining in one place in the year 1936 .Diego Rivera, already a famous personage, was a Trotskyite and gave him and his wife a home. Rivera and Kahlo liked and reapected Trotsky and spent much time with him and in making arrangements for his safety. Ultimately a Canadian, wielding an Axe and posing as a Trotskyite writer, managed to hack him to death in his own office.
If you are interested, the novel by Barbara Kingsolver, The Lacuna, is a marvelous read and deals with many issues of the 20s, 30s and 40s in Mexico and in the United States.
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I'm ok with whatever changes are made to the reading schedule. I'm all over the book anyways and worried about giving something away and spoiling it for other readers. Like, for example, saying that it's futile to look for action from this crowd of fools. But they can certainly be the cause of much action in the reader's mind. We can only guess at the turmoil they created in the author's mind. I can see something of Porter in four or five of the women. In fact she may be coming to terms with her past in this novel. Looking for understanding.
With Jenny a prime example. You've found a good example, Pat, of the dark humor in the book. Isn't she a mystery to both David and herself? Logging on just now a headline flashed across my screen. It has Stephen Hawking wondering at the mystery of women, and comparing them with the blackholes of the universe. Crooked and cloudy by nature. Surely that's a false perception. If so, she's something other than a fool.
Who is following the newlyweds? They must represent the dream of someone. Such innocence and self-satisfaction seem almost out of place in this menagerie of lost souls.
I've made a note of the Kingslover book, thanks, Jude. I'm going to follow that up. What a shock to hear that it was a Canadian who was the assassin. We're all so unpolitical up here.
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I am reading so slowly, I'm not sure I'll ever finish. I get caught at a certain point and have to put the book down and think of something else. I want to finish - it's a personal challenge. But at the same time, so many books, so little time.....is it worth it to spend the little reading time I have? I do enjoy the discussion, just am always behind, and no, I don't expect anyone to slow to my pace, just that I won't be contributing that much.
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I am giving up on this novel. I find myself not wanting to open the book, again. Reading it, depresses me! It is much too dark, for my taste.
I am at a point where I want to read something lighter, with some humor in it. There is already too much darkness in the world. I read for enjoyment. As well as for new information.
Sheila
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nlholme - that's great you are staying with the book - no matter what speed you can comfortably read it. I'm sure you'll agree with JudeS - she "can't take too much of these people at one time." What do you think of this? - Read a small "chunk" as PatH described her method, and then come here to share your thoughts on just that small section. We really want to hear from you.
Sheila, I think the author is trying to describe the conditions, the demonstrations,the revolutions, the prejudices and biases that led up to the second world war. You bet, it was a dark period. How do you think our world situation compares to the unrest preceding that war?
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One thing we haven't really talked about...those German haus fraus and the way their lives were defined by their husbands. Did you think they were so very different from our experience back in the 60's? Was your husband the head of the house?
Jonathan, I like your method...you're "all over the book." :D Honestly, I don't have a problem with that. It doesn't hurt if you give something away - provides incentive to read on. This ship seems a stage, the passengers making their appearances and then exiting stage right, making room for the next strolling pair. I had to smile when you described those newlyweds' "innocence and self-satisfaction".... I had been thinking that the groom may have been satisfied with the situation, but that young bride with the dark circles under her eyes, never a smile...just doesn't seem all that happy to me.
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Sheila, the book does portray, as JoanP describes, the prejudices and biases and attitudes that led to World War II and is dark, as you say but I am also finding her descriptions of the people interesting, in a somewhat voyeuristic way. Her writing is compelling me to keep reading.
While Jonathan tells us not to expect much action in the story, I think he's right that Porter's portrayals can be the cause of much action in the reader's mind.
Your description of the book as a stage is a good one, JoanP. "This ship seems a stage, the passengers making their appearances and then exiting stage right, making room for the next strolling pair." That seems to be Porter's method for spiraling back to each of the characters, round and round the ship.
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Jenny refers to herself as a fool, I think more than once. Perhaps I am not reading closely enough - have other characters referred to themselves as fools?
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That's a great question, nlholme! That's something we need to watch for. So far, I notice the characters showing disdain - criticizing others - feeling superior to most other passengers - never self-critical. Do you suppose we will begin to see various passengers admitting to their own insecurities and shortcomings - even to the point of calling themselves "fools" - as you noticed Jenny doing? Great question!
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As far as I can see (out in left field), only Herr Graf and Herr Lowenthal are without insecurities and short-comings. Even the Captain's stomach is churning at times. Jenny, alone, seems eager and willing to examine her life and learn from her mistakes. I wonder, will she end up being another La Condesa? A nymphomaniac. Despite the lack of action the passengers all slowly reveal their secrets and their failings. Jenny seems so alive. So in love with David. If only he wouldn't go on painting the same picture over and over. Preoccupied with the oppressed and downtrodden. Will these two ever hit it off? They can't even agree on their destination. She for France. And he for Spain. Let's not forget. The ideological battle known as The Spanish Civil War attracted artists as well as fighters in the thirties.
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Since I am shadowing Herr Glocken I must report on him through Jenny's eyes(Page 86)"a hasty outline of Herr Glocken's harmonious , interesting, deformity....." That is definitely a different and artistic way of observing a hunchback.
Then we must remember David's reaction to Herr GLocken:pg.76 " David noted with intense surprise that he wore a bright res silk pajama coat. Profusion in color in anything was offensive to David; it offended more than his eyes, he distrusted it on moral grounds, and nowhere more so than in dress..."
Then on page 77 "David in the wave of repulsion he suffered at the sight of Herr Glocken's pajama hated Jenny for a violent moment, as he did ofen and oftener"
The author is using color to give us insight into these characters. She isalso, perhaps, using Glocken the way Shakespeare uses a "jester" or "Fool" in his plays. The character is an outsider who elicits feelings that seem directed toward him but really reveal aspects of the thinkers inner workings.
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Hi Everybody,
I have the hardback copy. It's a library copy. Looked at the first few pages and threw the book down. Came back to the discussion to see this is week 2. Picked up the book again. Began reading from page 71. Found it interesting to read about the dying man and his nephew and Ric and Rac, the twins. Felt a yearning to go back and read the beginning of the book at some point.
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Just a joke regarding the young newly wed bride:
Those dark circles under her eyes may be due to too many hours of
lost sleep . Too much night time sex.
Jenny and David: I became progressively disgusted with these two.
What a neurotic co-dependent relationship depicted in this novel.
Except for their choice of art as a life choice they were mismatched
as a couple. Yet not able emotionally to go their separate ways permantly.
Jenny also flirts with other male passengers and almost has an affair with
one when she and David have a disagreement and a short dis-attachment
from each other.
I did not get the impression from my reading that Herr Lowenthal was without
insecurities of his own. He had to always be on his guard when around those he
regarded as anti-semitic .
Jonathan gave an excellent example of this from his documentation regarding his
recent post.
The Steerage passengers : Very sad . The space provided for such a large number
was grossly inadequate . The ship's Captain says he has taken on twice the
number the space was designated for.
This herding of poor sugar farm workers from Mexico now exiled back to Cuba
(men and women ) in inadequate Steerage accommodations were a breeding
place for disease ,lack of adequate sanitation, death.
Some of the women gave birth during the voyage with Dr. Schumann
attending to some of those births and also attending to illness and some
injuries there as well .
There were examples of fights breaking out there and orders from
the Captain to open the water hoses on them due to the extreme heat in Steerage
and some fights.
The German passengers would view the sights of the steerage passengers
from an open grating . They were not sympathetic to their plight at all.
This was just a past time for them. Very sad . They could not identify with
them at all . Not even as other humans.
The German mind set.
This example of the crowding and unhygenic conditions would remind one of
the various immigrent groups that sailed to New York harbor for a new life in
the USA . Another example would be the African slaves brought to the USA .
Enough said for now . I will continue this voyage with the Discussion group .
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It's a good thing we have shadowers on individual characters. Considering them as a group, we seem to be missing their differences. For example, Jonathan sees "only Herr Graf and Herr Lowenthal without insecurities and short-comings." I'll have to agree with retired, who said "from my reading I did not I get the impression that Herr Lowenthal was without insecurities of his own. He had to always be on his guard when around those he regarded as anti-semitic .
And Dr. Schumann - he seems a sympathetic character - eager to help those who need a friend...like the odd Contessa for one. And he really does seem to take notice and pity those steerage passengers, doesn't he? I'm going to watch him closely to see if he bears up under closer scrutiny. I know he is ill himself...is it his heart. I'm forgetting more than I care to admit - relying on you all to fill in the gaps.
And what about Herr Glocken, Jonathan? Jude is shadowing him - and sees him through Jenny's eyes - at ease with himself, despite his deformity. An interesting comment about the author's use of color giving us insight into her characters, Jude. If Herr Glocken wished to be left alone, unnoticed, would he have chosen that red silk pajama coat?
Let's watch Glocken to see how Jude's idea of Porter's use for his character develops. She sees him as "an outsider who elicits feelings that seem directed toward him but really reveal aspects of the thinkers' inner workings."
Hats - the twins, Ric and Rac - and that awful nephew supposedly caring for his ailing, dependant uncle frightened me to death. So devoid of emotion. What do you think the author intends to say with her portray of these young people?
I've been thinking of Marcie's comment - that Porter's portrayals can be the cause of much action in the reader's mind. Still I do expect some action...but maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. Do you wonder how a writer could spend 20 years writing one book? I mean, how did she do it? Did she spend the time rewriting the same chapters, fleshing out the characters even more, every few years? Or did she write some and then put it aside for a couple of years before going back? I'd really like to know more about how this book came about. How do you decide when it is actually finished?
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Jonathan, Jenny seems a puzzle to me. She appears spontaneous and free-spirited though we know that David has dampened that (he doesn't like color-- on moral grounds!) yet she does seem to reflect on her situation.... but then we see her from David's point of view and her reflections seem self-serving (gathering ammunition to use against him or another guy). Is David right about her? Is he projecting from his awful childhood?
JudeS, I'm glad that you brought up the use of color to give insight to the characters. I'll have to pay more attention to that. Also, Herr Glocken's role as Shakespeare's jester or fool. The film that was adapted from the book gives Glocken that specific role.
Hats, I'm glad that you are back with us. I somehow lost my place and missed some pages in section 1. After reading this week's allotment of section 2, I went back and found it helpful to read the last part of section 1. As many of you have said, it's difficult to remember who is who in this large cast of characters.
Retired, yes, the conditions of the farm workers in steerage reminds one of the cattle cars used by Hitler to transport Jews. Inhuman conditions, though the Captain is trying to mitigate the circumstances.
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Marcie, Jenny is a real puzzle, maybe the most difficult to understand. I agree with Jonathan about her character - she seems eager to examine her life and learn from her mistakes. A nymphomaniac like La Condesa, Jonathan? Dunno about that. Jude's previous mention of Diego Rivera and now yours about Jenny's character, reminded me of the author, her four husbands and many lovers. It was interesting to learn of the time Porter's spent with the Mexican revolutionaries and her affair with the artist, Diego Rivera. While looking for the author in one of the characters in her book, might we consider Jenny?
Here's a revealing article abput KA Porter's time spent in Mexico among the Revolutionaries and her time with Diego Rivera:
"In 1919, she met a group of Mexican revolutionaries, and they persuaded her to go to Mexico to write about the coming revolution there. At the time, it was an extraordinary thing for a woman to travel alone to a foreign country, and especially to a country that was so politically unstable as Mexico. South of the border, she found herself associating with revolutionaries, artists, anthropologists, and politicians, and it was there that she began to write the first of her serious short stories. She became a lover to Diego Rivera and befriended other revolutionaries, with whom she would frequently party and smoke marijuana. " http://www.amsaw.org/amsaw-ithappenedinhistory-051504-porter.html
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Joan P.
I didn't know that Porter was one of Diego Rivers's many lovers.I just saw the meeting of Barbara Kingsolvers novel with this one.
That knowledge gives me more insight into the novel we are reading.Really interesting. Need to think more about this fact.
Thanks!
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'Looking for the author.' That is a most interesting biographical article, Joan. What interesting lives she lived. She can probably be found in all the characters. Still, she manages to give them all distinctive individualities. The fun of the book lies in getting involved in each one of them. She certainly did.
My life has been incredible, I don't believe a word of it.
So, Ship of Fools is a make believe project? Can she convince us? Make believers out of us? Or is it disillusionment that she intends.
Look for her in Jenny, primarily. With Mrs. Treadwell, Frau Rittersdorf, and La Condesa acting as foils. But also keep Amparo, Lola, Concha and Pastora in reserve.
No wonder David is bewildered.
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Herr Glocken:
His insecurities are related to his poor physical health.
He is sharing a small crowded cabin with two other passengers;
David and Denny. He asks for assistance daily due to his mobility problems
and daily pain, need for pain medication before getting out of bed. David is very helpful
to accommodate is needs. Including giving him the lower bunk .
Dwarfs usually have or develop developmental orthopedic problems during their life span.
He tells David that he has sold his small tobacco/newspaper stand in Mexico and is returning to
Germany . I do not remember if a reason is provided to his cabin mate.
As to his choice of red : does not a bright color usually more cheerful than
a selection of a drab color. Can indicate the desire to be happy.
He also tells David that his dream was to be a Violinist in his youth .
When David questions why he did not follow his dream ? Herr Glocken
tells him to look at his body .
An unfullfilled dream . Sad but understandable.
I thought about his future in Nazi Germany which would be grim due to
Hitler's perfection for the German citizen. He might end up in a Nazi oven.
The Zarzuela company of singers and dancers were probably designated
first class passengers because their roles were to entertain the passengers .
They seem to be a Gypsy group and we learn they are very talented .
The stereotype of the Gypsy as thief will be developed as the novel
continues.
Herr Graf the elderly ill "dying " wheelchair bound man is an example of
a religious zealot. He believes he has the power of healing the sick .
He is depicted as a kindly person who is accompanied by his teen
age nephew who resents the burden of his care.
We learn that the nephew becomes infatuated sexually with one of the
dancers in the Zarzuela group and demands money from his uncle to
pay for her services. The uncle finally gives him some money but he he is not told his purpose.
Here we have the author incorporating religion, sexual desires and the stresses and
resentments of the care taking role .
Enough said. I will continue to watch the events unfold on board the Vera.
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I am not sure how kindly Herr Graf is. He intends to be "good" and to give his new gift of healing to others (whether they want it or not) but he thinks that it would be beneficial to his nephew if he could beat the knot of willfulness out of him, which he doesn't have the strength to accomplish.
Herr Glocken seems not to be vindictive, even though he has a frail body, constantly in pain...somewhat akin to Herr Graf's situation.
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Yes, I can renew my book. Eight hundred seventy-six people??? Wow!
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I'm glad you can renew, hats. That reminds me that I need to renew my book today!
Far too many people in steerage; roughly 2/3 more than it's supposed to hold.
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Oh my goodness, I haven't read much of the book, but I'm reading about deeply felt prejudices immediately. I'm thinking about Frau Hutten's feelings about the Spanish dancing troupe. Was this novel published immediately after WWII? I guess feelings of bias ran deeply before the war?? Ms. Porter compares Ric And Rac's companionship to a "state of intense undeclared war with the adult world."
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Was this novel published immediately after WWII? I guess feelings of bias ran deeply before the war??
An interesting question about the writing and the publishing of this book, Hats! The answer makes your head spin. Porter took the voyage in 1931 or 32. She took notes on her observations of her fellow passengers. Ten years later (1942) she began writing this novel...and didn't finish it until the early 1960's! So you're right - we're seeing the growing biases back in the 30's...leading up to the war. Since she continues to work on the novel for 20 years after the war, I'm assuming that she sees the same problems existing right into the 60's. Do you?
I'm smiling at your inclusion of Frau Rittersdorf as one of the characters who embody the author's personality, Jonathan. - She describes her as "slightly deaf, slightly nearsighted...with a poor memory," yet she is the one chronicling the journey. Do you really believe her journal resembles Porter's? Funny! This author has a sense of humor!
I did some quick math after reading your observation on Ric and Rac's companionship, Hats... "a state of intense undeclared war with the adult world."
These are youngsters now. So is Herr Graf's cold-hearted nephew. But ten years from now - these children will be fighting in that war.
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Retired, I share your concern for Herr Glocken's future in Germany. Though he himself is making the most of what life has dished out to him, in spite of his broken dreams, he seems comfortable with his deformity.
Have you considered the men as a group? To me they are ALL either ill, seriously ill, dying - or heavy, heavy drinkers? Who do you see not fitting into this catergory? I like Dr. Schumann more and more, but fear he won't make it to the end. He tries to make the most of the days he has left though - "patching up the deceived, the foolhardy, the willfully blinded, the lover of suffering..." Does he include himself in this group? I'm watching for more of the passengers who admit they are "fools, nlholme."
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Joan P
One of your questions is "what does the author think of sex?"
Well I think she sums it up very well on page 112 when she is writing about Ric and Rac..
The difference between the two children is "the mysterious stigmata of sex."
I can't get that remark out of my head. It leads to many interpretations:
Sex is Holy
Sex is painful
Your sex marks you for life
and on and on.
After reading the biographical article of Porter's life I would say she is an expert in this field and knows quite well what she writes on this subject.
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the mysterious stigmata of sex
What a wonderful example of a certain peculiarity of Porter's style, that you have selected, Jude. You give us a choice of meanings. I choose the 'marked for life' interpretation. In fact a light seems to go on. I see something satirical in that. To be stigmatized by this or that can mean that someone is marked out for disapproval. Or the person is demeaned by that. Is Porter also suggesting that race or physical features can be seen as stigmas. Ship of Fools is beginning to strike me as intensely satirical. In the Mark Twain, Jonathan Swift manner.
Ric and Rac are identical except for that. I wonder how their story ends. In the meantime, they seem to have been seriously predjudiced. Have you noticed. Only German things are thrown overboard. The Hutten's dog. Frau Rittersdorf's deckchair cushion.
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On interesting observation, Jude.
And Jonathan, I agree, the author is saying:"To be stigmatized by this or that can mean that someone is marked out for disapproval. Do we find that observation to be true of the female passengers aboard the Vera? Or merely disapproval of certain races? The American girls - the young ones - are boisterous and rowdy. (I'm shadowing Mary Treadwell, but so far see nothing much but the fact that she is well-dressed. No disapproval there.
The Spanish dancers are no more than ladies of the night - of course she disapproves of them. (Why are they traveling first class?)
What of the German ladies? They regard themselves as beyond reproach. Does the author agree with that assessment - or is she criticizing them in her own inimitable fashion?
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Jonathan, you say "Ship of Fools is beginning to strike me as intensely satirical. In the Mark Twain, Jonathan Swift manner." I agree. There continue to be a lot of (almost fable-like) animal comparisons in relation to the characters. Most are not flattering.
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Regarding Mary Treadwell:
She is also depicted as quite a drinker .
Introverted not a friendly outgoing person.
Not receptive to her cabin mate's chatter when in the room or in
the cares and chatter of others who may want her to listen to them.
Comes across as depressed using alcohol as a buffer.
She is attractive and dresses well and is seen as desirable to some
men on the ship.
I believe it was the Purser of the ship among a few others.
Ric and Rac ( twins) undisciplined little monsters are finally physically disciplined by
their parents when they steal a necklace off a women passenger's neck and throw it overboard.
When the loss is reported and the item is deemed valuable their gypsy parents are angry.
Due to the value of the Pearl necklace the parents were planning to steal the item themselves.
Lola the mother of the twins lashes out at them severly. Punishing them physically
particularly the boy twin . She inflicts severe bodily bruises on the male child causing him to
spend a few days in the cabin to recuperate.
Here we have the stereotype of the gypsy as thief and severe physical discipline as a cultural
norm .
Enough for now . I will continue the journey another .
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retired...we don't get much of a picture of Mary Treadwell, though you point out she is a heavy drinker. Is the author including herself in her portrayal of the 40 something divorcee? I think so.
Jonathan writes that even the narrator (the author?) is prejudiced - "dismissing them all as a bunch of misfits of one kind or another."
I keep pondering what Porter's purpose in writing this book really was. Did she intend it as a warning to the Post WWII generation? A warning that the same thing might happen again? Another war? Or a satire as has been suggested here - a satire to entertain? Or to warn...
I would give anything to read the actual notes she took on that 1931 voyage. Have you read anything about them? Do they still exist? I remember reading somewhere that portions of Ship of Fools were published as short stories in the years before the book was finished in the early 60's. These short stories left her readers hungry for more - wanting to know more about these characters.
retired...I haven't read of the theft of that necklace yet - do see David and Jenny discussing its value, however. A great example of Porter's brand of humor - the parents' beating of their children - for tossing the necklace overboard. Not because of the theft, but because they had intended to steal it themselves.
How is everyone doing with the reading? Or have you tossed the book overboard? I'm hooked now - want to learn more about the characters and hope that Porter won't let us down by the end.
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'Have you tossed the book overboard?' Hahaha. Of course not, Joan. I'm enjoying it too much. Perhaps it's the dark side of our human nature on display, but there it is. Haven't we all experienced the things Porter writes about? So packed with human experience. A brilliant book.
Thanks, retired, for drawing our attention to Mrs Treadwell. Here she is at 46:
The last day of August was a nondescript time to be born...here she was arrived at that stage in human life supposed most to resemble the insect-riddled month...when nothing blooms but weeds in earth, and the soul puts out rank growths, too, according to dreary popular opinion. The lower instincts take alarm for fear they may have missed something, are hot for marginal enjoyments. Hearts grow hard and cold, they say, or go overripe and pulpy; women especially, one is told, so often lose their modesty, their grace. They become shrill, or run to fat, or turn to beanpoles, take to secret drinking or to nagging their husbands; they get tangled up in disreputable love affairs; they marry men too young for them and get just what they deserve; if they have a little money, they attract every species of parasite, and Lesbians lurk in the offing, waiting for loneliness and fear to do their work; oh it is all enough to scare anybody, said Mrs. Treadwell, shaking her head and taking up her magazine again.
She's doing something about. She's off to Paris and other French delights. As for the notes that Porter made on that 1931 voyage, could they have been something like Frau Rittersdorf's notebook entries? No...too predjudiced for that.
I'm still shadowing Herr Lowenthal. He is, after all, the main character in the book. He does stand out. It wouldn't be any voyage at all without him. Nobody likes him, but nice things are said about him. I believe he is the only one always thought of as a human being. All the others, well, many of them, are sooner or later given an animal name; like cackling hyenas, monkeys, swine, rats, crickets, and many others. The Germans, especially, don't come out of this looking very good.
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Herr Lowenthal:
I was perplexed why the author identifies him as " a Jewish manufacturer and salesman of Catholic church furnishings ". He tells one of the passengers that there is" good business in these items."
Understandable but as a observant Jew one could think the author would identify him as selling Judaica .
Jewish religious items.
Any one find the author's description of his trade puzzling ?
Is she possibly indicating that when there is such a large market ( many Catholic churches ) available
for an item religious identification would not be a factor for the salesperson .
The opportunities for the sales would be paramount.
I did not believe that Herr Lowenthal was liked at all .
He was assigned to a small seperate table in the dining room.
The " stigmata " of the Jew .
Did anyone see the author's description of Herr Lowenthal differently ?
Please enlighten this reader.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Ship of Fools
Katherine Anne Porter
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/shipfools/foolscover.bmp)
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"The idea for Ship of Fools originated in a voyage that Katherine Anne Porter took from Mexico to Europe in 1931. Some of the passengers she encountered on the ship became the models for the characters in Ship of Fools. Porter began work on the novel in 1941 and it took her twenty years to complete.
Porter wrote that the title of her novel symbolizes “the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.” The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962." - Goodreads
Discussion Schedule:
January 2-7 Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback)
January 8-15 Part II High Sea (first third: p. 71-170 - hardback) -ending before: "The Cuban Medical students, a hermetic society."
January 16-23 Part II High Sea cont. (p.171 - 274- hardback) - ending before "The greasers are up to something. Denny to David" -
January 24-31 Part II High Sea cont. (p. 274 - 360 - hardback)
February 1-end Part III The Harbors (p. 361-497 - hardback)
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*****
Some Topics for Consideration
January 16-23 Part II High Sea cont. (p.171 - 274- hardback)
- ending before "The greasers are up to something. Denny to David"
1. What is an hermetic society? Were those Cuban medical students revolutionaries? Do you think all students are rebelling at this time?
If la Condesa was not a "fool," why did she allow herself to be made a figure of ridicule by these young men?
2. Does Captain Thiele frighten you? Does his beleif that exacting obedience and conformity from all the passengers on board or the structure of society will fail, remind you of someone else's way of thinking?
3. Do you trust Dr. Schumann's objectivity concerning the nature of the passengers aboard the Vera? What is it that attracts him to the Condesa?
4. The Condesa asks, "Do you expect a great change in me because of this strange voyage? A miracle of some kind?" Isn't that we are all hoping for all the passengers in aboard this ship? Change?
5. Is the self-loathing expressed by these characters getting you down? The Captain seems as disgusted with the passengers as we are? Are any of them content with who they are? Do you see any friendships beginning to form?
6. What more do we learn about Mary Treadwell in this section? Why is she drinking so much? What happened to her that"cut her life in two." Do you see the author in this character?
7 How did the revelation of Herr Freytag's Jewish wife affect all of the first class passengers? What was Dr. Schumann's response to Freytag's dismissal from the captain's table? How did the Americans react to this example of anti-semitism?
8. "What right do you have to live in this world and care nothing for the human beings around you? You have no heart." Who said this? To whom? Can any this be said of any of the characters?
Discussion Leaders: Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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Retired, it does seem almost "prejudiced" of the author to identify the only Jew in the story as a salesman of Catholic religious items as his business. Perhaps it is an aspect of the kind of humor in the book. There was a scene in the book where Herr Lowenthal is looking for any friendly face he could find on the ship and he wasn't able to find one so I too think that he is not liked, or at least that no one is willing to risk being "friendly" with him.
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I would give anything to read the actual notes she took on that 1931 voyage. Have you read anything about them? Do they still exist? I remember reading somewhere that portions of Ship of Fools were published as short stories in the years before the book was finished in the early 60's. These short stories left her readers hungry for more - wanting to know more about these characters.
Joan I saw somewhere that Porter used her notes in a 20-page letter to Caroline Gordon, wife of the poet Allen Tate.
Maybe this correspondence is at the University of Maryland which holds the primary archive for Katherine Anne Porter.
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Marcie - I've spent a considerable amount of time in the University of MD Porter Archives - too long, I think. Not much time left to post. >:(
Everything seems to be there...except I find no reference to that journal. Every reference that I came across indicates that Ms. Porter sent journal-like snippets in the form of letters to friends. And there are countless such letters in the Archives in Maryland. Do you suppose she didn't really keep a journal, but rather notes, letters, describing the ship and its passengers? Or maybe she kept a journal and tore out pages? Then again, there may well be a journal somewhere...
She saved everything - if you had written her a fan letter at the time, it would be in the Archives!
As I surfed through many references, I came across this little snippet that I found interesting...
"In August 1931, Katherine Anne Porter and her companion and eventual husband, Eugene Pressly, departed from Mexico on the German ship S. S. Werra. The journal she kept during this journey became the basis for Ship of Fools, the novel she published thirty-one years later. After four months in Berlin, Porter visited Paris and Madrid before moving with Pressly, who had received a lifetime appointment in the American foreign service, to Basel, Switzerland, for six months, where she lived from June to December 1932. When Pressly was posted to the American Embassy in Paris, they settled there for nearly four years, marrying in March 1933"
Back to the book...
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retired, I think Jonathan is saying that nobody really likes Herr Lowenthal - but they say nice things about him. I haven't read that far yet...I just see him by off by himself for the most part. Do you suppose that Porter is saying that as long as the merchandise sells, the salesman will sell it. I'm seeing the stereotypical Jewish merchant here. Lowenthal's hottest selling items are rosary beads - used to count the Hail Marys in a Catholic veneration of Mary. It is rather ironic, isn't it?
We are seeing a number of references to Catholicism here. Are most of the Germans on board the ship Catholics? There are some Lutherans. I'm guessing that the steerage Spaniards are also Catholic.
Porter was a sometime Catholic herself, and a sometime rebel against that faith. I came across these references while searching for that journal -
"In 1906, at age sixteen, Porter left home and married John Henry Koontz, the son of a wealthy Texas ranching family, and subsequently converted to Koontz's religion, Roman Catholicism. Koontz was physically abusive; once while drunk, he threw her down the stairs, breaking her ankle. They divorced officially in 1915
But in the 1920s she also became intensely critical of religion and remained so until the last decade of her life when she again embraced the Roman Catholic Church."
Did you read the exchange between poor, poor little Frau Schmitt and the Baumgartners? That woman cannot open her mouth without stepping into the need for explanations and apologies - which are never accepted.
This time she questions Herr B's comment about Frau Graf's healing ability, saying there were saints in the old days who could heal the body as well as the soul.
Frau Schmitt - "He's a Lutheran, how could he be a saint?"
Frau B: "We are Lutherans. We have our saints also."
After many apologies, Frau Schmitt adds, "it was my ignorance - I did not know you had saints. Nobody told me. I thought only the Catholic church had saints, forgive me. Who are they?"
Frau B: "Who are what?"
Frau Schmitt, eager to learn - "Your saints?"
Frau B. "Oh good heavens what a question..." - snubbed her, left her sitting there feeling deeply, unjustly injured.
When I read that, I thought it was wonderfully amusing. The more I think about it, the more questions I have about what Porter was saying here. But I must leave - we are going into town to see a movie...a difficult choice among top three - Iron Lady, the Descendants and Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. Guess which one we chose? After that, dinner in a little French restaurant.
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Joan, I too looked a bit in the archives and didn't find the journal or the 20 page letter to Caroline Gordon.
Jonathan, the more I read, the more I see the humor in the small scenes Porter creates, such as the one between Frau S. and Frau B. that JoanP relates above. If we look for the humorous anecdotes, we might more easily get through the book that some are finding depressing.
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I took a vacation from reading the book, but I hope to get back to it this weekend. It is depressing. She has a knack of pointing out people's weaknesses and flaws, not so much the good things.
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Yes, the book can get depressing. This little cross section of humanity has just too many problems, individually and as a group, to make for a happy atmosphere. If Herr Lowenthal is without friends, he's hardly alone. Friendship is a scarce commodity on the ship. On the other hand, there is the search for love, and many are finding it.
The door bell! I gotta go. Back later.
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I have struggled to Page 330; about 10 pages a day. I'm determined to finish the book, mainly because I'm one of many who recommended it for discussion. I say this boldly because none of you can find me to do physical harm. I believe Ms. Porter is wonderful at character development but I'm simply too dense to ascertain the plot. Where is it going? Is Bebe's overboard experience the best Ms. Porter can do? Maybe Johan will actually kill his uncle? And the Jews are but one target of the German's many hate objects: Americans, Swiss, Spanish, and even lower classed Germans to name a few. And then there is Herr Lutz, I think, who is absolutely overwhelmed by his wife's unmitigated gall to voice her opinion. Indeed, it is a ship of fools.
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Nlhome and Jim, I'm glad that you've decided to stick with it. I don't see this book as an action story as much as a series of vignettes about the people on the ship of fools. Maybe there is no plot except the small interactions among the people and the revelation of their thoughts and feelings. Nothing seems to be happening in terms of an overall plot but, for me, the author is keeping my interest by describing the conflicts between the characters. As you say, Jim, we're wondering whether Johan will actually kill is uncle or what horrible thing the twins might do next. There may not be any major act (plot) but the author presents the little fears and hurts as if describing actual people living their ordinary lives -- not necessarily the aspects of people we would choose to hone in on.
Jonathan, I think that your observation is spot on: "This little cross section of humanity has just too many problems, individually and as a group, to make for a happy atmosphere." I don't watch the crop of reality shows that are on TV, but I've seen snippets and it may be that the characters on the "Ship of Fools" have brought out the worst in one another, as people seem to do in the "reality" situations on TV.
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Hello there, JimT! Aren't you brave...struggling through to p.330 - all by yourself without turning to your fellow passengers for commiseration! We've extended the discussion period - to leave more time for reading and discussion. Please slow down and spend some time with us - and share your thoughts. If you take a look at the heading at the top of the page, you'll see that we plan to focus on these pages, beginning Monday -
January 16-23 Part II High Sea cont. (p.171 - 274- hardback) - ending before "The greasers are up to something. Denny to David" -
You bring us the most interesting question - one the rest of us have been struggling with. "I'm simply too dense to ascertain the plot. Where is it going?"
Whose is telling this story? Do all of the passengers on this ship hate one another - or is there one person who feels this way about the rest of the passengers? Do the passengers represent the peoples of the world - in the period preceding WWII?
Jim asks where we think the story is going. One suggestion might be that the world is heading to war.
Do you see that as Porter's intent?
Hey, Jonathan - was that the pizza guy at the door? We'd like you to expand on your comment about friendship being a scarce commodity on this ship. Are you surprised? Really? This is a disparate group - and not exactly a pleasure cruise - especially with the 876 miserable souls in steerage - a reminder to all on board that this is not a happy situation. Considering these differences, I wasn't surprised that meaningful relationships were not formed.
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Marcie, we were posting at the same time. That's an interesting idea - "it may be that the characters on the "Ship of Fools" have brought out the worst in one another." Do you think they are really not as bad as they seem - when not confined to the close quarters of this ship?
If that is so, I think we can expect more of the same. I see some movement - subtle changes. Jenny and David, for example. They seem to be drifting apart, changing perceptions of one another, changing plans for their future, even? Jenny said something about "the ship simmering with Love. Real Love." I'm not sure I see what Jenny is seeing, are you? Even Freytag, so in love with his Mary Champagne, seems to be having second thoughts about her.
Nlhome - so glad you are back. Read slowly - maybe we're missing something. Where is the love?
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I finished this week's assignment (up to page 177) and am taking a break from this bleak and hopeless roster of passengers..
Actually I went to a few sites about the book. and gleaned a few facts (anything to deter me from the actual plot.)
If any of you follow "Mad Men" on TV. It seems that Betty Draper (she of the beautiful face and figure and tortured soul) was prominently reading "Ship of Fools" during Season two. (Very Symbolish!)
The Movie made of the book was up for thirteen Oscars but gleaned only two. Some of the actors were:
Vivian Leigh-Mary Treadwell
Jose Ferrer- Reiber
Oskar Werner-Dr. Schuman (He was the Colonel in Hogan's Heroes)
Michael Dunn-Carl Glocken.
The last two names were nominated for Oscars but didn't win.
I will return to the book on Monday.
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Jude, I watched the film, SHIP OF FOOLS and found Dr. Schuman pretty sympathetic. (Oskar Werner didn't play Colonel Klink in Hogan's Heroes; that was Werner Klemperer.)
You motivated me to look up something about Oskar Werner. It relates to the War and Nazism. From wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Werner
"In December 1941, Werner was drafted into the Wehrmacht. As a pacifist and staunch opponent of Nazism, he was determined to avoid advancement in the military.
"So many officers had been killed on the Russian front that they needed replacements desperately. And, I was for them the embodiment of the Aryan type. But I am a pacifist. I didn't want any responsibility, so I behaved stupidly. I fell from my horse and made mistakes reading the range finders on the cannon, and finally they kicked me out of training school." [2]
He was assigned to peeling potatoes and cleaning latrines instead of being sent to the Eastern Front. In 1944, he secretly married actress Elisabeth Kallina, who was half-Jewish. They immediately had a daughter, Eleanore. That December, he deserted the Wehrmacht and fled with his wife and daughter to the Wienerwald, where they remained in hiding until the end of the war.[1]
"The artillery fire was constant for two and a half days. The shells hit all around our little hut and it was shaking like a leaf. ...We knew that to go out there would be suicide, but it was better than to have to wait for execution." [3]"
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JoanP, you ask "Do you think they are really not as bad as they seem - when not confined to the close quarters of this ship?" It does seem to me that individually, these people could be put in other settings and they would not behave as badly. That's not to say that they would be "saints" but they might not be under the kind of pressures they are on in the ship. The author may be saying that all of us have some of the "fool" in us and could be on that ship.
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JoanP: I must apologize to you and all the participates. This is my first venture into a book discussion and I have failed to read the very clear directions re the dates certain pages are to be discussed. Thank you for pointing that oversight out. I'll slow my rapid reading pace to conform to the schedule. Actually, it'll be a pleasure. I might read a Grisham novel in the interim.
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The tortured soul seen reading The Ship of Fools. I like that, Jude. I'm sure she found much solace in the book. Certainly she must have found her own case vividly depicted in the novel. Aren't they all tortured souls in varying degrees? As most tortured I would pick Jenny. With Dr Schumann a close second, but that becomes evident later in the book. Several long-suffering wives would also want recognition. The only enviable people on the boat are the twins, Ric and Rac, at peace with themselves, if not the world. Ah, the children. Of such is the kingdom of heaven. Too soon we grow old and miserable. If Jenny has the ship 'simmering with love', she's just being cynical. She can't even find it in her adorable companion.
Good to hear from you, Jim. Taking a break with Grisham? Looks like a cop-out to me. Just kidding. Actually, I'm at page 374, and the torture is turning to pathos. We need your help to keep the ship afloat.
'The author may be saying that all of us have some of the "fool" in us and could be on that ship.' I believe you're right, Marcie. And if not that ship, a ship of our own. Not to despair, however. Wisdom flows through the book.
Which movie did you see, Joan? How come you didn't consider A Dangerous Method? Was it a surfeit of fools without that sorry business of Jung carrying on with his patient? Did he ever find himself adrift. What a fool.
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I don't see who played Lowenthal on that cast of characters, Jude. I thought that would be a juicy role. We've got the movie from Netflix here, but I can't bring myself to watch it - knowing that Porter didn't like the film. I need to give her a chance to tell her story, before letting the movie influence me. You'll return on Monday? Good! That's tomorrow, Jude! We'll be looking for you.
Marcie - I'm trying to picture these characters in a different setting - probably in situations where everyone is like-minded. I'd say fools with different shortcomings and prejudices are better off being on this ship, or in similar circumstances. The exposure to different points of view provides the possibility for change. I think that's healthy - maybe Porter's characters will learn something of tolerance before they leave the ship. I'm trying not to remember that a war is coming. I guess it's too much to believe in change.
"The author may be saying that all of us have some of the "fool" in us and could be on that ship. And if not that ship, a ship of our own." - Oh Jonathan, I agree. I hope my own inner fool learns a thing or two from reading this book!
JimT, you don't have to apologize. The only reason you were pointed to the discussion schedule in the heading - we want to hear from you, your thoughts - and can't do that if you are reading ahead without us. . Looks like we'll have to share your attention with Grisham, but please join in the conversation. As you can see, we need all the help we can get.
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Jonathan - Yes, to some degree, I agree, they are all tortured souls. There are some Germans who don't realize what is to come when they return to Germany after having been away for some time. They are happy with the status quo and can't imagine any other way of thinking about those different from themselves.
"Mexicans loathe the Americans, despise the Jews, hate the Spaniards, distrust the English, admire the French and love the Germans." Sounds like a world preparing to go to war. It occurs to me that there are no French or English aboard the ship. Why do you think that is?
ps. "A Different Method" sounded quite interesting. Mine wasn't the only vote - we decided to see Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy - one of Le Carre's best spy stories. Two thumbs up!
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Monday, Jan. 16 We're sailing on this morning - mid-voyage, it seems. Where's Jude? Things are beginning to happen, now that the passengers have sized up one another, they are beginning to react to them. At one point the ship is likened to a prison. The steerage passengers fit the description ...but the focus seems to be on the first class passengers.
Captain Thiele has his hands full - with the number of passengers in steerage, ready to erupt in fight or rebellion - and the problems associated with the first class passengers. What did you think of him? Is he the sort you'd want to have as captain of your ship?
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Well, I'm still not to page 171, although I tried. (I had a mystery book that I had ordered from interlibrary loan and wanted to finish that; besides, it was more appealing.)
What struck me was Wilhelm Freytag (a name not so uncommon in my area when I was growing up, by the way) and what he said: "While he shaved he riffled through his ties and selected one, thinking that people on voyage mostly went on behaving as if they were on dry land, and there is simply not room for it on a ship. Every smallest act shows up more clearly and looks worse, because it has lost its background. The train of events leading up to and explaining it is not there; you can't refer it back and set it in its proper size and place...."
Perhaps explaining why we see all the negative characteristics so clearly?
Will try to catch up this afternoon
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As promised I'm back.
In the pages I've read in our new assignment I have to point out two places.
Page 201: Dr Schuman.....Porter coins an interesting phrase, proving once again that she is an in-depth writer(If perhaps a bit long winded)
"Dr Schumann, who had always viewed himself as the soul of reserve, found himself possessed by a demon of frankness."
Now there's an interesting thought-being frank with others is demonic. Dangerous perhaps, but demonic? What think you?
On page 207 was a dash of Nazi cold water, which of course chills my soul no matter how many times I have read or heard it. Even though it is in the past, yet.........
"And do you know that miserable Jew they put by mistake with Herr Rieber? .......he asked "What time is it? My watch has stopped....Herr Rieber said,' Time to stop all Jew watches.' Herr Rieber is so very witty."
This is horrible and too, too real.
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Too, too horrrible. Jewish fate hangs like a heavy cloud over the whole book.
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Mary Treadwell:
We learn that she is divorced and apparently had a abusive marriage.
Her thoughts reveal that she is fearful of the future. Aging and alone.
Running from her fears by escaping into frequent travel and the buffer of excessive drinking.
Captain Thiele:
I was not surprised at his philosophy of management and behavior.
The concept of running a " tight ship: .
Obedience and conformity to the rule of laws established in socialist , Communist , military societies.
Also any Dictator led society . While these societies can be oppressive and do not allow for
individualism they are similar examples of " running a tight ship."
Are we reminded of the coming of Fascism in Italy and Hitlers' Germany ?
Cuban Medical Students:
I had to look up the term a "Hermetic society".
The best example I could discern was they were a closed sealed isolated society ?
They had in common their medical studies and therefor friendships among their group .
La Contessa :
I did not believe that the Cuban Medical students were making a fool of her.
She enjoyed their company and their gaiety relieving her from Isolation as a prisoned
exiled in her private stateroom . We learn that she is a drug addict as well as a suffer of
insomnia . She also misses her own two adult sons . Perhaps the students also acted as young
adult substitutes.
We also learn that She depends on Dr. Schumann to give her sleeping medications for her insomnia
and though he is resistant at first to give her narcotic pain medications by injection .
I really felt sorry for this woman . As the story progresses we learn that she will remain
addicted in order to function minimally on a daily basis .
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nlhome - the name Freytag was familiar to me too - Clement Freitag was in my elementary school class - back in the late 40's, early 50's. You just reminded me of him - wish I knew his story. Please don't rush through the pages, we have plenty of time - until the middle of February if we need it. It is so helpful to be reminded of the passages that you are noticing now.
"thinking that people on voyage mostly went on behaving as if they were on dry land, and there is simply not room for it on a ship. Every smallest act shows up more clearly and looks worse, because it has lost its background."
We have been commenting on the negative aspects of each of these characters - Perhaps, as you have suggested, everyone just appears worse than they really are because the focus is on their negative characteristics?
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Thanks for checking out Porter's curious use of the term hermetic, retired. There seems to be several meanings but they all point to what you have concluded - "a closely sealed, isolated society." Maybe that's why I was somewhat surprised to see them acting so outrageously boisterous with la Condesa - gaining the notice of all aboard that ship.
You see the Condesa "enjoying their company, relieving her from the isolation as a prisoner
exiled in her private stateroom."
Interesting choice of words - this isn't the first time this ship has been likened to a prison. Quite apt, don't you think?
I'm looking forward to seeing how she is portrayed in the movie. Don't think I should watch it just yet. I'd rather wait to see what Porter does with her character, before I see what Hollywood did.
I can't say I'm feeling sorry for her at this point, encouraging these youngsters into her room. I admit I pity anyone who suffers from an addiction...but toying with these young men - as the mother of sons, as the Condesa was, I find that unacceptable and don't understand it. There has to be another reason.
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"Dr Schumann, who had always viewed himself as the soul of reserve, found himself possessed by a demon of frankness."
I'm glad you brought that quote to our attention, Jude. To be honest, I don't find him "possessed by a demon of frankness" - not even dangerous at this point. I was rather disappointed in him - in his refusal to express his feelings when Freytag was dismissed from the Captain's table. Maybe Porter is alluding here to something that will happen in the future when he actually expresses his views or acts in a "demonic" manner? Or maybe I missed something that would cause Porter to describe him in this way now. Do you remember the context? Right now, I find Dr. Schumann the most sympathetic character in the book. How about you?
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"Jewish fate hangs like a heavy cloud over the whole book." Oh, I agree, Jonathan. Reading these chapters, doesn't it seem that this is the reason Porter wrote the book? Every character seems affected by the anti-semitism to some degree. It is horrible to go back over it all again, isn't it?
I know this is painful topic, in the light of what was to come, but can you help me to understand the mind-set in Germany at the time of this cruise? The question that I have for those of you who have more knowledge than I do...was this idea of Aryan superiority to the point of eradicating the presence of Jews...in existence before Hitler gained power with these views? It was my understanding that German Jews were quite integrated into society, quite respected in this period between the two world wars. How could one man's views have had such an effect on society?
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Joan, you ask, "was this idea of Aryan superiority to the point of eradicating the presence of Jews...in existence before Hitler gained power with these views?"
In looking for information about your question, I came across an article about the term "Jewish Question."
The article says, "The term "Jewish Question" was first used in Great Britain from around 1750. According to Holocaust scholar Lucy Dawidowicz, the term "Jewish Question", as introduced in western Europe, was a neutral expression for the negative attitude toward the apparent and persistent singularity of the Jews as a people against the background of the rising political nationalisms and new nation-states."
And From around 1860 the notion took on an increasingly antisemitic tendency: Jews were described under this title as a stumbling block to the identity and cohesion of the German nation and as enemies within the Germans' own country. Antisemites such as Wilhelm Marr, Karl Eugen Dühring, Theodor Fritsch, Houston Stewart Chamberlain, Paul de Lagarde and others declared it a racial problem unsolvable through integration, in order to make their demands for the "de-jewifying" of the press, education, state and economy, culture plausible, along with their demands for the condemnation of inter-marriage between Jews and non-Jews. They also used this definition to oust the Jews out of their supposedly more socially dominating positions.
By far the most infamous use of this expression was by the Nazis in the early- and mid- twentieth century, culminating in the implementation of their "Final Solution to the Jewish question" during World War II."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_question
I also found the following:
"As for Aryan superiority and his Jewish hatred, Hitler clearly describes in Mein Kampf how he slowly began to change his mind about the Jews from the influence of the anti-Semitic movement of the Christian Social Party. His views with regard to anti-Semitism he said, "succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all." (read volume 1, chapter 2)."
http://nobeliefs.com/hitler-myths.htm#myth3
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Joan P
Dr Schumans words to the Condessa were those he (or the Author) felt were so different from his reserved self that they were coined as "a demon of frankness".
This too is the real beginning of the romance between them. A strange relationship,yes, but an honest one between two people who are bright, compassionate and have lived much.
Her need for succor is great. His need to help drives him. Yet this is a tiny island of truth and warmth on this ship of fools.
As far as the students visits to her room this is explained by the fact that they are stand ins for her two sons who the Codessa misses so much.They bring wine and chess boards and raucous conversation. All methods that help to make one forget the troubles that plague you.
On this ship being an addict is a minor failing compared to the evil that emanates from so many other passengers.
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'a strange relationship, yes, but an honest one'...fine observation, Jude, regarding the tete-a-tete between the reserved doctor and the femme fatale. She has drawn a confidence out of him with 'I was never unfaithful to my wife.' He feels emotionally and morally unbalanced by it. La Condesa has a strange power over men. Just why is she being exiled?
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Thanks for the background information on "The Jewish Question, Marcie. The term first used in 1750 in England - and then the increasing anti-semitism in the mid 19th century when Jewish presence in Germany began to be considered "a racial problem unsolvable through integration. The tendency then was the "de-jewifying" of the press, education, state and economy, culture, condemnation of inter-marriage between Jews and non-Jews."
I understand better now - though will never understand how Hitler could ever have come up with "The Final Solution."
"This is horrible and too, too real."
something Jude said "chills my soul no matter how many times I have read or heard it. Even though it is in the past, yet..."
This was the kind of talk KAPorter heard all around her aboard the German ship, the Vera - in 1932 and then lived through in the next decade. I am not surprised to find these comments in her writing. Perhaps these are exact quotes from these passengers, written in her journal. They must have made quite an impression on her. Are you keeping track of the sympathies of those of other nationalities regarding Herr Freyatag's situation?
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Thqnk you for putting "demon of frankness" into context, Jude. I can understand how this deeply religious and moral man would condemn his own increasingl inclinations concerning the Condesa as a lapse, a temptation put in his path by the demon, Satan. He recognizes this as a moral weakness, a failure and is doing his best to resist. His frank talk with the lady did not help things. He is revealing himself to her. I can relate to his struggle. He is human.
As Jonathan says, she has this strange power over men. I laughed at her power over the Captain, who really doesn't approve of her. If all the Cuban students are doing is playing chess with the Condesa, then I can accept the idea that they are stand-ins for her two sons. But don't you get the impression that their relationship is more of a sexual nature? Why all this stroking of her breasts - to lure them into her cabin? Doesn't Dr. Schumann overhear comments made by the students that mock her?
Does anyone recall why La Condesa is on her way to prison?
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'Does anyone recall why La Condesa is on her way to prison?' Good question, Joan. It's left to the reader to wonder why La Condesa is being deported. Late in the book the Captain and the Doctor admit that neither knows the reason why. Both are in love with her. I suspect she was encouraging radical political activity in the revolutionary times. And then there is the gossip. In the grip of demoniacal frankness, Lizzi, the strumpet, informs her cabin mate, Mrs. Treadwell:
"Oh now, imagine - that Spanish Condesa, the prisoner, you know her? - well, they say she is sleeping with every one of those students by turns. They are always in her cabin, sometimes two or three of them, and they say it is quite fantastic what goes on there." p207
The world is a dangerous place for Jews. Can there be any doubt that Herr Lowenthal would have been thrown overboard if a serious storm had come along. Like Jonah of ancient times. I only marvel at the fortitude and restraint he shows in the face of such persecution and predjudice. Most importantly he is not admitting any guilt. A bit of soul-searching, but that is it. Concluding that it is the eternal pesecution that makes him a member of the Chosen people.
Having said that, I'm still left with the feeling that Porter put Herr Lowenthal on to the Ship of Fools for the same reason that Shakespeare put Shylock into The Merchant of Venice. To make the world aware of a serious injustice. He certainly stands out as a mensh in this strange brood. Isn't it an irony? He sells lucky charms but keeps none for himself.
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I'm not too happy with my answer to Joan's question:
"Does anyone recall why La Condesa is on her way to prison?"
I was just recalling the last thing I had read about it, a conversation between the doctor and the captain, well along in the book. Looking back I found this on page 107. Again it is the Captain speaking:
I was told she is a dangerous revolutionist, an international spy, that she carries incendiary messages from one hotbead of sedition and rebellion to another, that she incites to riot - you would hardly believe all the nonsense. My own opinion is, she is one of those idle rich great ladies who like excitement, who get into mischief and make more mischief without in the least understanding what they do - this is always true of women in politics of any kind! - and she has got her fingers badly burned. Well, his voice softened, this will teach her a lesson.
I can't resist inserting a spoiler into the discussion. Near the end of the story, the Captain and Dr. Schumann are on the bridge, enjoying their mid-morning coffee. The Captain says to Dr. Schumann, This has been an unusually eventful voyage. It's a disaster, said Dr. Schumann, making no attempt to conceal his weariness or his indifference to the whole sordid affair.
Would that reflect the feelings of many readers?
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I have missed most of the discussion. I couldn't get pass the Survey Monkey. My husband isn't comfortable with giving out personal information. We have become lost in the world of new challenges on the internet. Really, it's my fault. I didn't start at the beginning of the book. Came in during the middle of the discussion. Became so enthusiastic with the discussion and Ms. Porter...I bought Ship of Fools. Intend to start the beginning of the book very soon. Thank you for having me in your discussion. It's not a time when I feel very welcome anywhere. That's another story. Spoilers don't bother me. I just find myself thinking "did that happen?" Then, I must read all about it (laugh).
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"weariness or his indifference to the whole sordid affair"
That reflects my feelings as I struggle through this. Some parts read quickly - some bog me down.
Hat,you'll finish before I will at this rate.
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I'm sitting here reading your posts about your struggles (and admirable determination) to finish the book...and at the same time imagining what Katherine Porter went through, stuggling to complete the book. Remembering that this woman actually experienced this cruise, heard these conversations expressing the harsh bigotry against just about everyone in the world outside of their own race. And what's more, she lived through the horror of WWII, knew many of the details of the "final solution" - (will we ever know or comprehend all of them?) and then struggled for 20 years, reliving it all over again as she wrote and rewrote this book. Talk about "weary" ...
"It's a disaster, said Dr. Schumann, making no attempt to conceal his weariness or his indifference to the whole sordid affair."
Would Dr. Schumann's comment reflect the feelings of many readers? Jonathan, I'd agree with him on the "weariness" - but "indifference"? Never!
nlhome - I too struggle through some parts, live for the "action" - but do read the heavy parts, knowing that the author is trying to reveal something important to the story - at least something that she thinks important. For example - the long conversation between la Condesa and Doctor Schumann. (Do we ever see him referred to as "Herr Doctor Schumann" - as Herr Professor Hutten is addressed?)
Hats - please do - read on, it doesn't matter how far behind you are - (since you have told us that you don't mind Spoilers. :D) I'm a little bit puzzled on what you are saying about the Survey Monkey. I wasn't aware it was asking you for any personal information whatsoever.
I hope the "other story" does not include anything that would make you feel unwelcome here. You must feel the delight from all whenever you join us.
I just find myself thinking "did that happen?"
Perhaps the most painful part of reading this book - is that it all really did happen. And then there's the looming question - could it ever happen again?
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"The world is a dangerous place for Jews."
Jonathan, yes, dangerous for Jews, for the handicapped, the poor and for anyone who is not a German. And we'll have to include Herr Freytag too - he's German, but has married a non-German, and a Jewess at that. Maybe it's because you have read ahead. I still don't see Herr Lowenthal as one who stands out in this cast of characters yet. Obviously, he is the Jew - his treatment is not surprising to those aboard the Vera. But when it comes to overt signs of injustice, can you beat what has happened to Freytag? He is cast out because he has loved and married someone who is Jewish. What would Shakespeare do with him? Isn't his sitution one that would make the world aware of how far this serious injustice is going to spread? How does Lowenthal react to Freytag's "demotion" from the Captain's table?
I find the Captain one of the most offensive and dangerous characters aboard the ship, do you?
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I've been looking back to see what La Condesa says about her plight. The first time the doctor came to her cabin (p. 120 in hardback) she tells him about her two sons who are in hiding somewhere. She says to the doctor, "Here is the difference between you and me. I do not intend to reconcile myself with a society I despise. Yet it was not I who quarreled with society, but my sons -- I was content to despise it. It was my sons who turned me out into this world... Look, I have such good health as you say. But no income at all. A prisoner on her way to a dreary island in the Canaries..."
It seems that, according to her story, her sons did some revolutionary acts that caused the officials to come after her household. They didn't find her sons but did find her.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Ship of Fools
Katherine Anne Porter
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/shipfools/foolscover.bmp)
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"The idea for Ship of Fools originated in a voyage that Katherine Anne Porter took from Mexico to Europe in 1931. Some of the passengers she encountered on the ship became the models for the characters in Ship of Fools. Porter began work on the novel in 1941 and it took her twenty years to complete.
Porter wrote that the title of her novel symbolizes “the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.” The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962." - Goodreads
Discussion Schedule:
January 2-7 Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback)
January 8-15 Part II High Sea (first third: p. 71-170 - hardback) -ending before: "The Cuban Medical students, a hermetic society."
January 16-23 Part II High Sea cont. (p.171 - 274- hardback) - ending before "The greasers are up to something. Denny to David" -
January 23-31 Part II High Sea cont. (p. 274 - 360 - hardback)
February 1-end Part III The Harbors (p. 361-497 - hardback)
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*****
Some Topics for Consideration
January 23-31 Part II High Sea cont. (p. 274 - 360 - hardback)
1. Are you beginning to sense a change in attitude in some of the characters as the ship nears the harbor? Dr. Schumann? Professor Hutten? Jenny? Freytag? Who else?
2. What more do we learn about the hunchback, Glocken? Do you see him as "everyman" in spite of his handicap, as he considers the his future, his remaining days?
3. It seems that Professor Hutton believes in the fundamental goodness of man. Does his wife? Does Katherine Porter? Is this belief or lack of it, what divides the characters aboard the ship?
4. Why are the two priests of no help to the captain in maintaining order below? How do Father Carillo and Father Garza exhibit differences in their ministry of the steerage passengers?
5. Why doe Jenny become furious with Lowenthal? Do you see him like the Germans in their attitude to those different from themselves?
6. Does everyone on board regard Echegaray a fool for attempting to save a dog's life? Do you believe he had ulterior motives such as a reward or suicide even? How did Echegaray's death and funeral affect the passengers?
7. Who is writing those cruel notes on the ship's bulletin board? How do they affect the targeted passengers? Why would anyone pay any attention to them?
8. "Me too, leave me on Vigo too." Both incidents at the end of the journey involved Ric and Rac, tossing Bebe overboard, tossing the pearls. What was your reaction to each? What are your feelings about these two children now?
Discussion Leaders: Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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Hats, please do read the book with us. The author seems to circle around her characters as if she were taking a walk around the ship, coming to each one in turn, and describing them. As JoanP says, it doesn't seem to matter if you haven't read from the beginning. We are all muddling through the book together. I hope you'll stay with us. And nlhome, I hope you'll continue too. There are so many details in the book, it will take all eyes to find them.
Jonathan, I am reacting to your quote from the Captain about La Condesa..."My own opinion is, she is one of those idle rich great ladies who like excitement, who get into mischief and make more mischief without in the least understanding what they do - this is always true of women in politics of any kind!"
What a chauvinist! I am in agreement with you, JoanP. The Captain seems one of the least likable characters. The Captain is authoritarian. He judges everyone and acts on his own impulses, hiding behind his authority.
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Good morning, Marcie! We are posting together this morning over our morning coffee! I agree wtih you about this Captain. I see a place for him in Herr Hitler's scheme of things in the coming years.
La Condesa continues to be a puzzle, doesn't she? Jonathan's research shows the various reasons she is on the ship on the way to prison. She's in first class, though not really confined to her rooms.
The Captain was told "she is a dangerous revolutionist, an international spy, that she carries incendiary messages from one hotbead of sedition and rebellion to another, that she incites to riot" It is his own opinion she is one of those idle rich great ladies who like excitement."
Jonathan quotes Lizzi - "they say she is sleeping with every one of those students by turns. They are always in her cabin, sometimes two or three of them, and they say it is quite fantastic what goes on there."
It seems that all of this information is speculation, gossip, rumor.
Marcie, I was confused about her story about her two sons. Didn't she say she "hid them" under an altar. I was under the impression they were little boys at the time. I thought they all escaped.
Do you believe the story she tells the doctor? Apparently the doctor doesn't - as Jonathan tells us late in the book the Captain and the Doctor admit that neither knows the reason why she is heading to prison.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that she is into some covert activity with those rebelling Cuban medical students...
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I'm begginning to think that Porter does have something special...
How often in a book do we get to really HATE so many people?
The author has the ability to elicit very, very strong feelings in all her readers. Sometimes these characters actually make me feel nauseous!Such as on page 268:
Frau Rittersdorf is writing in herjournal about her husband Otto:
"How unerring his instincts in everything! it was his boast that no Jew had ever set foot in his house, to the farthest known generation.."
This remark makes one understand how the Germans were able to treat the Jews like vermin and kill six Million. Those words show that the Nazis were not the first generation to hate theJjews. Only the ones who brought that hate to fruition.
When you look down on others, no matter what reason, you make yourself feel higher. The essence of "looking down" is to enhance yourself in some fake or unrealistic way. That begs the question 'Why did the Germans feel so low that necessitated this attitude?
In Eric Erickson's book "Childhood and Society" in which he examines the childhood of a number of Evil Leaders he hypothesizes that constantly being beaten by parents as a child makes the need to hate arise in the Psyche. You mustn't hate your parentss so you look for others to hate and you pour out your wrath upon the innocent.
When you look at the Neo-Nazi movement in America (and it is larger than you think) you find that most of the members grew up in violent homes.
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'How often in a book do we get to really HATE so many people?'
Good question, Jude. And everything in your post needs saying. How did it ever happen!
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I find Herr Reiber the most distasteful and hate filled character .
He would no doubt be a valued member in Hitler's SS . A good choice for
a Commandant in a Concentration camp.
Herr Lowenthal's reaction to Herr Freytag 's ouster from the Captains's table
to his own small table was not one of welcome.
When he learns the reason for the ouster he tells Freytag that he does not believe
in Christian Jewish intermarriage . Particularly, when the Jewish woman makes this choice.
Since he eats only foods which are allowed to a devout Jew ( Jewish dietary laws ) during this voyage
we are to assume that he is devout to his heritage.
As for the woman , children born to a Jewish woman are considered Jews according to Israel law. If she
has not converted from her Jewish faith.
We have learned from reading that Hitler's Germany considered Intermarriage unacceptable
in their society.
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hmmm, I'm not sure, JoanP, about La Condesa's story about her sons. We know that the doctor does not believe everything she says--especially about the drugs she has.
If she admits to being "50" her sons may be old enough to be part of a revolution rather than young children, but you never know.
JudeS, what a good point about Porter's ability to elicit deep feelings for (or actually against!) her characters. She has a very good eye and imagination for details that portray vivid characters.
Retired, you're right Herr Reiber would be good choice for a Commandant in a Concentration camp.
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Sorry, but I have abandoned ship. It was too depressing and tedious for me at this time. However, I do have a life vest on and my life boat has many supplies; so I may return one day......
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Hi, Hats. Welcome aboard. How wonderful to hear from you. And you're coming aboard laughing. Do we ever need cheering up. Your timing is perfect. We've been angered by these mean characters (not that they have any characters of their own) but that will soon change as we begin to feel sorry for them. And you're in time for the grand party in the Captain's honor, being organized by the Spanish dancers.
I must admit I'm surprised by the opinions about the stressed-out Captain. Joan sees him as 'the least likable character,' and Marcie finds him 'the most offensive and dangerous character aboard the ship.'
I feel he is just doing his job as responsibly as he can. He's on the high seas and is staying clear of rocks. Beyond that, I find him as confused and bewildered as the rest.
The one we really need on this ship is Herr Freytag's Jewish wife, Mary. She, he tells us, would put all these people in their places. Is that a spoiler?
It's a marvellous book. Where did Porter ever find the courage to write it? Such strange relationships everywhere one looks. Pick any two and look closely. It makes on laugh. It makes one cry. David and Jenny are a good example, with their hopeless love kept going by hot flashes.
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Jude, you're right - the Germans were not the first to hate the Jews, but they were the ones who would go so far as to "bring their hatred to fruition," as you say.
It's difficult to read so much hate, I agree, Sally - but I think what keeps us going is the need to understand how such a thing could happen - and recognize the symptoms... If you can't read any further, please stick with the discussion? We appreciate your input.
In considering your question - "Why did the Germans feel so low that necessitated this attitude" - I don't get very far...but I do see fear, Jude. Fear for their social and economic position - economic primarily. The competition could be eliminated if they are all simply made to disappear. I'm not sure why they ended up in the camps. It must have become a huge burden sustaining the camps. Do we know anything where the idea for the mass killings came from - whose idea were the gas chambers? Back to Herr Hitler?
An interesting observation - children beaten by parents, learning to hate and pour wrath on the innocent. Do you suppose this explains Ric and Rac? Or Johann, Herr Graf's nephew?
But they are not German, are they? Do you see people of other nationalities aboard this ship who bear such hatred for the Jews - besides the Germans?
"Where did Porter ever find the courage to write this book?" Jonathan, maybe the twenty years after the war, the thirty years after the voyage - in other words, distance, provided the courage.
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Tell me, is Dr. Schumann German? I remember some discussion at the Captain's table regarding his name - and whether it was really German. If so, how is his attitude explained - so different from most {all?) of the other Germans aboard the ship?
He doesn't express his opinion one way or another regarding Herr Freytag's ouster from the elite dinner table. Why is that, do you think?
Retired, I think Rieber is easy to dislike...his hatred is so overt, his comments so crude. Yes, his type will find their way into the "SS"...chilling isn't it, to think that men just like him, so full of hate, would be put in charge of handling the Jews who were at their mercy?
You mention Herr Lowenthal's lack of a welcome to Freytag at his table. I noticed that too - and yet he is trying to be social and friendly to other German's on the ship. Why not Freytag? Have you noticed Freytag, a German, is ordering meals similar to Lowenthal's - meatless, porkless?
I suppose Captain Thiele, a German himself, is not unlike his compatriots in his hatred and disdain for the Jews, Jonathan. I find him frightening because he is in such a position of power and it seems he'll go to any extreme to keep order on the ship, even go so far as to punish the innocent. He reminds me of the monster who is rising in German politics at this time.
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I read the required pages.
Need to take a break again.
Had a nightmare about the book last night.
See you on Monday.
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Oh Jude, a nightmare - because of what you are reading in this book? Or the implications about where the Vera is heading, the route it is taking? I am so very sorry, but grateful that you will be back Monday. Your reactions are important to us.
I've finished reading Part II, which we are scheduled to begin discussing on Tuesday. Have not read the final section, The Harbors yet. It occurs to me as I read that we may never get to Germany. Do you feel that way too?
We have extended this discussion into February to give everyone time to read/react to Porter's lengthy novel, but if you are all ready to move on and finish discussing Part II of the High Sea section of the book, we can start that tomorrow.
Let us hear from you.
I'm finding Dr. Schumann a "person of interest" - are you? Is he German? He doesn't express his opinion one way or another regarding Herr Freytag's ouster. He seems to have wonderful insight into the rest of the passengers, into human nature. What is Porter telling us with this character?
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I renewed this book again, for the 3rd and last time allowed. I am still reading slowly, as life gets in the way, and now I have to borrow my husband's computer. My new one failed this morning, and I "lost it" with tech support through Dell - luckily my son came in and finished the session but it could not be fixed over the phone, which is what I told Mohammed was the case when I got so frustrated. He wanted us to remove parts that were welded in. Anyway, I have no patience of the fools tonight, will read something else.
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nlhome, I'm so sorry about your computer woes. Remove welded parts!!!?
JoanP, I'm definitely interested in the doctor ...and the condessa. The list of characters in the beginning of the book lists the doctor with the German characters. He is very controlled and reserved but he doesn't seem controlling of others, as the Captain does. He seems to reflect on humanity....and seems understanding, except in the case of the twins. He has given up on them. Perhaps he is right.
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JoanP: I would very much like to extend our discussion into February. I'm at that point where Denny is spreading the word that land is in sight. I need to give further thought to these characters as i find myself often referring back to earlier events. Re whether or not the doctor is German, I believe the Captain thinks he is but I'm not convinced. I do wonder if Ms. Porter would have identified herself with one of the passengers.
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Oh my goodness, nlhome! I know what that's like, hanging on the phone while "Mohammed" is giving instructions on how to fix it from afar. Remove parts that have been welded together! I would have lost it at that point too. Lucky your son intervened.
I'm glad you haven't given up on the fools yet. Believe it or not, I'm seeing change as the ship nears the Harbor. The question is - is it change for the better? Anyway, things are coming to a head. And passengers are revealing more about themselves - and even changing in response to some of the events aboard the ship.
"Re whether or not the doctor is German, I believe the Captain thinks he is but I'm not convinced." JimT - He is so unlike the other Germans on the ship, isn't he? He never expresses the belief that they are a superior race - nor does he look down on his other patients. On the other hand, he keeps silent on the comments made by his fellow-Germans. My question - is he hiding something? I think I detect a change in him too - as the ship nears the Harbor. Does anyone else notice this?
Some of us believe that Porter has put herself into a number of the characters aboard the ship, JimT. How about you? At this point, I see her in Mary Treadwell's character - and nothing to the contrary. We get to see more of Mary in this last section of "High Seas."
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It's Monday and time to return to the fray.
What struck me as one of the most important and dramatic parts of the book was the incident of Bebe the dog being thrown overboard by Ric and Rac. So much of the inner workings of so many people revealed by this incident.(pgs 310-324).
I especially found Frau Huttens inner thoughts about her relationship with her husband revealing. If we find the author anywhere it must surely be in this unhappy yet lasting relationship with the love of a dog replacing the love that is usually given to a child. The need to be subservient to a man is the theme of Frau Huttens thoughts. A typical German or Nazi philosophy. Porter, of course could never last in a relationship of that nature.
Porter had three or four marriages. None of them lasting. Her first marriage, at sixteen, seemed to be particularly brutal and unhappy. She never had any children. Perhaps she had a dog or other pet on which she lavished the love we see expressed towards Bebe. A person who never loved an animal could never write that particular scenario.
We see Frau and Professor Hutten not even able to remember the name of the man who died to save their beloved Bebe. How awful is that?
Meanwhile we get our taste of some decent thoughts and feelings from Jenny and Dr. Schumann. They somehow save this
Ship of Fools, or in my mind Ship of Horrible Fools, from being a totally depressive trip.
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Dr. Schumann:
I am not surprised that the author describes his character and
behavior as one of being reserved and verbally nonjudgmental.
Our expectations of a doctor are that he care for any patient without regard to race to or religion.
We do not expect him to be verbally judgemental despite how he may feel or believe .
They take an oath to practice with out regard to personal stereotyping.
This novel highlights and gives many examples of racial and religious hatreds and stereotyping
of a variety of ethnic groups not just the Jews . Particularly any group not German.
Although Jewish hatred and stereotyping are paramount to the story.
Another example is the stereotyping of the Spanish by Denny ( Texan) to David ( American) when he says " the greasers
are up to something " .
The heavy use of fried foods and cooking oil . Oiling of the hair as a styling use are examples for the use of the word
"greasers" . They are " up to something ". Distrust of this ethnic group and stereotyping as gypsy thieves.
Denny lives in Texas close to the border of Mexico . Probably has visited Mexico on personal or business travel .
Perhaps the novel also makes the reader begin to examine their own ethnic stereotyping and the rational for
these feelings and beliefs.
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Porter did in fact love cats, only to leave others stuck with them. She made frequent moves, leaving a newly acquired cat behind. It exasperated her friends who had invited her for a longer stay, or the new owner of a property she was leaving behind. In fact she left a great deal behind as she extricated herself from certain relationships. But took with her tons of experience, and acquired more as she travelled. So, I think the book is about herself as much as it is about the tragedy of the 20th century.
Dr. Schumann, I believe, represents the good German, with his reservation, his professional manner, and, of course his badge of courage, his duelling scar. And of course he is a devout Catholic.
Frau Schmitt is a very kindly person: '...she felt again for the thousandth time, how difficult it is to be good, innocent, friendly, simple, in a world where no one seems to understand or sympathize with another; it seemed all too often that no one really wished even to try to be a little charitable.' p159
Pity the poor Captain, reacting to the rioting among the steerage passengers: '...(he) had a riotous, violent imagination which now took possession of him. He dreamed for a brief moment of a cinematic crisis full of darkness, hand-to-hand struggle, flashes of light and thunderous explosions, broken heads and mangled limbs and pools of blood, screams and yells and incendiary flames lighting the sky, with lifeboats being lowered away into the heaving sea, himself still on the bridge somehow in full command of the situation, and completely calm.' p173
Does it seem tyrannical to take away the wood-carver's little knife. How soon we forget. After 9/11 one had to surrender even a nailclipper or file before boarding a plane. The captain's nightmare is an inability to cope with a world gone mad. It turns out he longs for the capability of the American gangsters armed with their machine guns. As he sees them in the movies.
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So many really good thoughts expressed here yesterday! Enough to keep us busy for the coming week - and give others time to catch us with the reading.
Jonathan - Porter left her many cats without a backward glance? Not the attachment one has for a dog, as Jude pointed out.
"But {she} took with her tons of experience, and acquired more as she travelled. So, I think the book is about herself as much as it is about the tragedy of the 20th century."
That's interesting. Can you expand more about how you arrived at this conclusion? And do you see the author in the character of Mary Treadwell - she seems to share the same detachment to tragedy you ascribe to the author.
Though Mary Treadwell does express distaste at Lizzi's constant comments against the Jews - which caused Lizzi to ask her whether she likes Jews. Mary Treadwell's dry response: "not particularly, should I? - struck me as funny, considering all the antisemitc comments expressed by other passengers. Mary Treadwell doesn't seem to like or dislike anyone in particular, does she? Except Parisians - Paris has a special place in her heart.
I'm not sure what makes Mary Treadwell so detached and unable to settle down... we're told of her failed marriage - she fell in love with the wrong man at a young age. And then her parents' death - why didn't she go home for their funeral? I wonder if we will hear more of this character before the ship makes land. I sense the author's unhappiness, detachment and pain in this character.
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"A person who never loved an animal could never write that particular scenario" -
Jude - I'm trying to put together your observation of the author - and Jonathan's comment about Porter's numerous cats, left behind in many ports. Bebe was a child substitute for the Huttens. They lavished all of their love on this dog to fill a void.
There are a number of references to unhappy children in these pages though - children whose parents had no time, love or interest in them. Is there a message here? Ric and Rac are examples of this, yes, but there are other seemingly well brought up adults, who express the regret that their parents didn't love them. I've been shadowing Mary Treadwell - who claims a happy childhood - luxuries, travel, a warm nurse - but when her parents died, she seemed so detached.
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Your reactions to some of the other characters help to put their actions in perspective...
"The captain's nightmare is an inability to cope with a world gone mad. " I had developed quite a dislike for his disdain of the human beings in steerage, Jonathan but will try to keep in mind that his is an unenviable position, given the volatility below.
retired, the fact that the doctor has "taken an oath to practice without regard to personal stereotyping " would explain why he holds his tongue and keeps his opinions to himself.
I wonder if any of you are sensing a change in him as a result of this voyage though? What do you think this meant about his -"feeling the oppression of millions" -
"He goes off in hope of saving a nameless, faceless fool stupid enough to fall overboard."
Are we finally getting a glimpse into the inner workings of his mind?
retiredmakes another observation- -"Perhaps the novel also makes the reader begin to examine their own ethnic stereotyping and the rational for these feelings and beliefs." Do you think this might have been Porter's intent?
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Joan, didn't Mary Treadwell say that she grew up in a loving home -- was told that she was almost loved too well as a child-- an idyllic childhood. Then she married someone her parents hadn't met and he beat her, and presumably controlled her, out of jealousy.
It seems that she was too ashamed to let her parents know or to go home.
That changed her life forever. She keeps retreating to her thoughts and dreams of her childhood.
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One of the questions you ask Joan P. is what do we think of Ric and Rac now?
Well at first I felt sorry for them but after the incident with Bebe I am sadly changing my opinion or rather adding to it.
These children are being brought up with no moral compass. They care for no one but themselves. They are almost animals in human form. They do as they pleases. Their parents may beat them, quite severely at times, but this only makes them more full of anger and hate.
There is a belief that the early signs of a person with no concious ,a psycopath, is the attacks on animals in childhood . They attack animals until they grow up and are large enough to attack humans. This is sad but true.
I don't want to envision these evil sprites as grown ups.
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Jude, your changing opinion of Ric and Rac seems to point to what I see as a major difference in the way a number of the passengers regard "the fundamental goodness of man." Is there any hope for them? Professor Hutten believes that all men are "born with a moral compass" as you put it. I don't think his wife believes this. She's kept quiet about her difference all these years - but she makes it clear that she's the one who has to deal with them on a daily basis. What seems to be Porter's view on the subject?
Mary Treadwell - Marcie, I'm going to have to read the description of Mary Treadwell's upbringing again. The first time I came away from it, I sensed that her childhood was spent away from her parents - with nurses, with travel, expensive schooling - which she referred too as an expression of "too much love." What you see makes sense though...that she didn't want to return home because she was embarrassed for having left for that husband of hers in the first place. But not attend the funeral? When there was so much love in the home as a child? I don't get that. If she was grieving their loss, wouldn't she be there for their burial?
So Mary T considers Paris "home" now. What's in Paris...I know everyone loves Paris, but is MaryTreadwell's heart there? Her loved ones? Are there any loved ones?
Have you noticed the quotes KA Porter selected to begin each of the three sections? Before Part II - High Seas, she included this one from a song by Brahms...
"Keine Haus, keine Heimat" (No house, no homeland).
Do you have any idea why she chose this particular line? "Why did we leave Mexico," Frau Hutton asks. (Why did they?) Are the Germans hoping to return "home"to the land they left behind? Why no house, no homeland? There's got to be a message intended by the author here.
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Well, I swam as fast as I could, and at least for now have caught up with the ship. I found the whole sequence of Freytag being evicted from the captain's table to sit with Lowenthal and the surrounding material so painful that I could only take it in tiny doses.
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"Kein Haus, keine Heimat"--I would have thought it would be easy to find the words of one of Brahms' lieder, but I couldn't.
I did find this, though:
"Kein Haus, keine Heimat (No House, No Home). This text is from Halm's narrative In der Südsee in which the hero kills himself to save his former mistress. Although only twenty measures, Brahms' austere setting is intensely dramatic."
That doesn't seem to fit very well. I'm guessing the title is a catch phrase on its own.
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PatH! Are you in need of resuscitation? That was quite a swim! Impressive. I agree, small doses is the only way to go with this story. I'm wondering if this is the reason KA Porter took 20 years to write it. What I've been doing...I take one small, very small section at a time - one character sketch, one conversation. As soon as a new character appears on deck, I put down the book and let settle what I just finished reading before picking it up again. Any other way, I get overwhelmed.
Note that we have bought extra time - and will continue into February as long as we need before starting Dickens' Bleak House (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2819.0[u) midmonth. Hope everyone here will join us in that discussion. Folks are gathering already. It's a long book, we'll take it very slowly -
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Let me know if you can get this link to work, Pat - Keine Haus, keine Heimat (No house, no homeland) (http://www.wesleyan.edu/dac/view/brahmsphantasie/index.html)
First scroll down on the right to the song title. Then hit the volume icon - I can hear a voice singing the Brahm's melody in German - and then in the bottom right, there's a link to the translation. Can you see it? There has to have been a reason Porter selected this quote to introduce the "High Seas" portion of the book, don't you think?
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Yes, it worked perfectly. Rather stodgy performance. Here's the translation:
No house, no homeland,
No wife, no child,
Thus I whirl, a straw,
In storm and wind.
The wave rises and the wave falls,
Now there and now here,
World, if you don't ask about me,
Why should I ask about you?
That sort of fits the middle section.
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Oh, yes, Pat. Thanks for that translation. It does fit. The ship theme of the waves rising and falling and individuals caught up in their own world and the collective group on the ship caught up in their own world, oblivious of the happenings in the wider world around them.
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And, as with kein Haus, keine Heimat, they are out of context. Without their usual restraints, comforts, places of refuge, all the things that make up their systems of coping, they are behaving abnormally.
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The other quotes fit too. "Embarkation" has "Quand partons-nous vers le bonheur?" (When are we setting off towards happiness?) Most of the characters are setting off for something they think or hope will make them happier, or at least looking for some improvement in their lives.
I haven't read "The Harbors" yet, but it's got "For here have we no continuing city..." which quote continues "...but we seek one to come". I'm guessing that no one is going to find a stable situation, or what they had expected.
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I think the three quotes, in French, German, and English are intended to add a special significance to Porter's artistic vision. In keeping with the 'voyage to eternity' idea she mentions in her short note before the tale begins. It's almost as if the author is pointing out a bigger picture than the one she presents in dramatic form. None of the major characters, it seems to me, is without Haus or Heimat, despite the exclusivity some are preaching. Aren't they all coming from or going home? I don't see 'heimatlos' as a theme in the book, unlike, for example the alienation, prejudice, bigotry, intolerance, chauvinism, and self-delusion so rampant among these people.
But I can hear the author singing these lines to herself in the course of her long life's journey.
You always were a good swimmer, Pat.
Jude, I can appreciate what you say about Ric and Rac. Especially the observation that these two small children 'are almost animals in human form.' And isn't animal behavior a constant theme throughout the book? They are constantly calling each other animals, or the narrator is pinning animal labels on them. Here are some I've seen: cats, dogs, parrots, monkeys, serpents, pigs, goats, gorgons, frogs, wildcats, ostriches, rats, crows, fauns, kittens, buzzards, and that peahen Fraulein Lizzi.
This crowd should sail off the edge of the world. Except for Herr Lowenthal. The Lion.
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PatH
Thank you for the translation.
This short song has a feeling of hopelessness about it.
If the real world was filled only with such sad and\or terrible people where would we br?
After reading another "downer' part of the book I reflect on a voyage to England I made with my Mother at the age of three. The crew made me a wonderful Birthday party and everyone was so kind and friendly to me. It was a British ship.
Not every ship is a "Ship of Fools".
Is the horror because the passengers are mostly German? Is it the 1930's, the beginning of the Nazi regime?
With heavy heart I report on Herr Glocken pg.351:On the wallboard was written:"If you are a hunchback, symbol of every kind of degeneration, you may be excused from behaving like a normal human being".
Poor Herr Glocken. Not even the strongest soul could take such an insult as this. Hated because of something he has no control over. The hump which has made him suffer all his life is now "HIS FAULT" and it makes him a target of further derision..
Then we have frau Ritterdorf adding:(pg 352):"Query if it would not be a benefit to the human race if there was a well enforced law that all defective children be given euthanasia at birth........"
Even though she keeps a notebook I think that there is none of our author in her.
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Thanks to you all, I now see what Porter intended with those quotes before each section. If you take them as they are, at face value, they relate to the passengers aboard the ship. If you add the context, as PatH provided, completing the lines we had been given, the quotes refer to a broader picture...and then if you consider what all three together are saying, you get "Porter's artistic vision" as Jonathan points out - the 'voyage to eternity' idea. Loved it - the sum of your contributions!
You're right, Jude...the short Brahms song does have a feeling of hopelessness about it. Do you think the words represent Porter's feelings about this ship of passengers? That they are on a hopeless path, too foolish to notice where they are heading?
Jonathan thinks the whole crowd ought to sail off the edge of the world. Except for Herr Lowenthal, the lion." Do you think that's the solution? Do you think that's where they are heading?
Loved those references to the animal characterizations, Jonathan. Thanks for bringing them to our attention. Though this book contains more than its share of downers, there is much in Porter's writing to admire, I think.
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"Is the horror because the passengers are mostly German? Is it the 1930's, the beginning of the Nazi regime?"
Jude, that's the impression I'm getting - though Porter seems to be pointing her finger at others for putting down racial characteristics different from their own. I don't think I've ever read so many racial epithets in one place as those that came out of Denny's mouth in his conversation with David. I don't think he left anyone out. If he did, I don't know them.
And not just racial characteristics - but as Jude pointed out, their were slurs against the infirm - like Uncle Graf, and Glocken's dwarfism. I've a question about those notes that are appearing on the bulletin board. Who do you think is writing them? They're not only directed at the Germans, are they? Are we to believe it is the Spanish dancers? I'm not sure why these notes were allowed to remain there - hurtful as they were. Why didn't the passengers just tear them down when they saw them? Do you think anyone found them amusing?
Glocken was quite devastated by the notice directed at him...and it was cruel, I agree. But I really thought he was made of tougher stuff than that. I was moved when he confessed that he had always wanted to be a violinist. And that he still believes he has the soul to play. I haven't finished the book yet, but harbor the hope that he will play before the tale is over.
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The bulletins seem to be produced in collaboration by the Spanish dancers and the Cuban students, and target the people who have not forked out money for the lottery tickets and festival. People do seem to be tearing down ones targeted at themselves, but not before they have been widely read.
It's a failure on the Captain's part to let this happen. At the very least, he should have his men remove them promptly. Ideally, he should not allow his passengers to be subjected to this kind of extortion, but I admit that the dancers would be hard to control.
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So the bulletin notices were in retaliation for those who did not buy raffle tickets for the big gala. The Spanish dancers and the Cuban students must have been studying the first class passengers very closely to zero in on their weaknesses and know how to press their buttons, don't you think? I suppose this is what happens when in such close quarters.
Is anyone besides the men who are interested in the Spanish "dancers" buying tickets? It seems that everyone is trying to avoid them - and not looking forward to a grand celebration to honor the captain - who seems to have lost control on his ship.
Jonathan, can we look a bit closer at the character you've described as a "mench," who is liked by everyone - ..."a lion." Is it just me? I thought that Porter is beginning to portray Lowenthal a bit differently in these pages...as someone who is much the same as the other passengers on board the ship - only different - in the way he regards those who are not Jewish as inferiors. Why is Jenny so furious with him? What brought this on?
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Ship of Fools
Katherine Anne Porter
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/shipfools/foolscover.bmp) | "The idea for Ship of Fools originated in a voyage that Katherine Anne Porter took from Mexico to Europe in 1931. Some of the passengers she encountered on the ship became the models for the characters in Ship of Fools. Porter began work on the novel in 1941 and it took her twenty years to complete.
Porter wrote that the title of her novel symbolizes “the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.” The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962." - Goodreads |
*****
Some Topics for Consideration
February 1-8 Part III The Harbors
"For here we have no continuing city...but we seek one to come." St. Paul
1. The voyage seems to have interfered with everyone's moral compass. Was Porter's depressing conclusion as Frau Schmitt put it, that "the world is an evil place, we are all helpless" or is the author saying something else?
2. We've noticed Porter identifying the passengers with a wide array of animals. Did you see an analogy with Noah and his passengers aboard the Ark?
3. The Vera has indeed become a "love boat" - at least temporarily. Was there anyone left unaffected by the love bug? Do you see any evidence of charity or real concern for others?
4. Do you see why Dr. Schumann's silence is taken as sympathy for the denigrating remarks by some of the German passengers and officers aboard the ship? Do the passengers' silence and indifference to the sufferings of others set the scene for what is to come?
5. "Even the moral father, the trusted wife when traveling alone took a holiday from decency." Is the Captain saying the moral turpitude aboard his ship is only temporary? Remember he does add, "Passengers don't know how to behave on ship - or on land either."
6. Do any of the characters change for the better? Do you think they be different people when back on land?
7. There is much talk of death, murder and suicide in these pages. Do the passengers seem to consider death as a desirable solution to a life that is unbearable? What effect did Echegaray's death have on the rest of the passengers?
8. Did you consider the ending of the book satisfactory? What do you see as Porter's objective in telling this story? Do you think she achieved it?
Have you viewed the film adaptation of the novel? Did it enrich your understanding of the book?
Discussion Leaders: Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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We're nearing THE HARBORS - actually I finished the last portion of the book last night - and can hardly keep my mouth shut. Couldn't wait to see how the author was going to end this twenty year odyssey. I'm still wondering how much of those 20 years she spent working on it, or did she just decide to finish something she had started long ago? I go back and forth. Did she suffer from writers' block after living through the horrors of WWII? {Do we know where she was living during the war? Or what she was doing?}
There is so much detail, to the point of being overworked sometimes, that I start to think she spent too much time on it. Her observations into the human condition in this point in time are often lost in the detail. Are you finding this to be so? Does she believe in the fundamental goodness of man, as some of her passengers do? If so, this belief will be put to the test in the very near future when considering the horrifics of the camps, to which she makes frequent reference.
Maybe the answer lies in those many details - are they examples of man's basic inhumanity to man - or do you see otherwise?
How are you doing? Are you ready to steer this ship into the harbor...beginning Wednesday? Or do you need more time?
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It's interesting to look at the attitudes of the men toward the women they are paired with. They are often abusive, and if not, they are usually dismissive or scornful of the women, feeling their inferiority and limited unterstanding, their purpose to be subservient to their men.
Look at Professor Hutten and his wife. In the early days of their marriage, she would sometimes disagree with him, but he argued it out of her, and now seems to have forgotten she ever had a mind of her own. At dinner, when she actually dares to disagree with one of his boring discourses, it precipitates a serious crisis in their marriage. He doesn't like her to associate with other women, such associations being unnatural, their comparing notes on their husbands leading to divisions between husband and wife. Her understanding is such that her place is to be subservient to the men in her life. Classic symptoms of the morbid control freak.
In spite of this, she is the one who deals with the sordid practical side of the world, shielding her husband from it. And she enjoys the physical side of her marriage (as do most of the women) though, from shyness or prudishness she never talks about it at all with her husband.
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The Hansens were a confusing couple, weren't they Pat? He was dismissive, and mentally abusive, as most, if not all of the men in this story seem to be - but also weak. And the married women seem so angry. . I was cheering when Frau Hansen spoke up - but almost immediately she regretted it - took back everything she said. Was she afraid? She had no life, other than as Herr Hansen's wife.
At first I thought Porter's criticism was aimed at Germans, and that she was making a point about German - German men, but then realized that the abusiveness is found in others too. If the often divorced Mary Treadwell is the character expressing Porter's point of view, {I said IF. Remember that Mary Treadwell was severely put down - and beaten by her first husband too.
So is Porter commenting on men in general in this novel? Are the men of this time - "control freaks" as you put it, regardless of nationality?
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You're right, JoanP, it's not just Germans. Although both David and Jenny can dish it out as well as take it, David is totally inflexible. He inflicts his moods on her without even trying to get along. In disagreements about taste or behavior, he is always right and she mostly gives in to him. He automatically reads all her letters ,and allows her no privacy, but if she were to look at his letters or papers he would be outraged.
Then there's Amparo and Pepe, prostitute and pimp, the ultimate abusive relationship. All the same, the only intimacy she actually enjoys is with him, usually after he has beaten her. Still, she's squirreling away part of her earnings to set up on her own as a dancer.
Of course attitudes were quite different then--not so much about abuse, but about women's subservience, and the German ideal for women, Kinder, Kuche, Kirche, (children, cooking, and church) was alive and well.
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The men in this book, except for Dr. Schumann, are as has been pointed out, are really unbearable.
Is this the result of Porters four unhappy marriages and numerous affairs?
Her Father too was angry abusive and alcoholic.
There were decent men even in that period of history, although reading this book you might doubt it.
Some women are attracted to the mean, abusive kind. Perhaps Porter was one of those women.
Yes, the German men had an even greater tendency to fit these negative stereotypes.
I finished the book and was left with a bitter taste in my mouth.
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Let's talk about the after-taste tomorrow, Jude. I'm watching the movie tonight so it can go back to Netflix - it's been sitting here for weeks, waiting for me to finish the book. We've got another week - hope those swimming in our wake can make it in time...
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I fell asleep during the film last pm - am watching the end of it, just now. Jenny, portrayed by the lovely Elizabeth Ashley - asks David what it is he wants from her. His response...he doesn't know. But he wants a woman who lives just for him.
The impression I got from the book - the men want love, to be loved, but don't seem capable of giving the women the love they seem to need. Yet the women are willing to take so much abuse from the men.... Why? Porter seems to portray the women as helpless, needing love, at any cost.
But the book is about more than the love stories of the passengers which the film seems to be dwelling on. Maybe that's why the author was unhappy with the film version of her book? Herr Lowenthal remarks that this ship is not a cross-section of German men. Does Porter make that point clear in the book?
I'm looking forward to our discussion of the way Porter has concluded her novel. Jude, you write of a bitter after taste at the conclusion. Was it because Porter portrays all men as a stereotypically abusive?
Frau Schmitt remarked - "the world is an evil place, we are all helpless." If this is Porter's conclusion, I can understand why this would be a bitter ending...
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Film version of book:
I saw the film years ago and only remembered Oscar Werner who played
the role of Dr. Schumann.
I saw the film again about a month ago after reading the novel.
What a disappointment the film is in following the novel and the author's descriptions of characters
and events .
Herr Glocken the dwarf introduces and completes the ending of the film
by verbalizing some ridiculous comments .
Herr Lowenthal is depicted as a friendly smiling extroverted passenger. Not accurate
according to the novel's description .
Hollywood made changes which are not accurate when compared to the novel.
I certainly understood why the author was unhappy at the film's lack of authenticity in
regard to her novel.
I was certainly disappointed for the same reason when comparing the
adaptation of the film after reading the novel.
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Another sad or hopeless point of the book is that the children are portrayed as hopelees i.e. Ric and Rac and Hans Baumgartner. Are these characters the future of the world in Porters eyes?
Even the dog Bebe is not a "fun" or joyous animal but one frought with problems.
The Cuban medical Students are supposed to be the "cheerful" or fun group as they sing about Marijuana.
Perhaps Porter enjoyed a "toke" to forget it all.
I wouldn't be surprised.
Glad I didn't sign up for the journey of the Vera.
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retired - do you remember what became of Dr. Schumann in the film? If I didn't miss anything, he suffered a dramatic heart attack on the ship's deck...and then his wife and sons met his coffin in Bremmerhaven. I really don't remember his dying in the novel...did I miss something?
You put your finger on what I felt was missing in the film - I never felt the seriousness of the racial slurs - the film treated those topics so lightly, almost to the point of comedy.
I'm going to post this again now -before I forget. Now that I've finished the book, I've a different idea as to which character KA Porter placed herself. What do you think?
"In August 1931, Katherine Anne Porter and her companion and eventual husband, Eugene Pressly, departed from Mexico on the German ship S. S. Werra. The journal she kept during this journey became the basis for Ship of Fools, the novel she published thirty-one years later. After four months in Berlin, Porter visited Paris and Madrid before moving with Pressly, who had received a lifetime appointment in the American foreign service, to Basel, Switzerland, for six months, where she lived from June to December 1932. When Pressly was posted to the American Embassy in Paris, they settled there for nearly four years, marrying in March 1933"
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Back to the book...
Jude, do you believe that Porter intended to show that these children are not being raised well - to face the future. When you think about it, they are the ones who will be fighting in the war, totally unprepared and lacking in self-discipline. Do you think she was consciously telling us something about their future?
I'm glad you brought up Bebe, poor unhappy dog. Let's talk about all the animals Porter used to describe these characters. Did this remind you of another story of a ship-load of animals? Did the author have this boat in mind as she wrote?
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JoanP
Was your hint about the Porter Person, or the person she identified with, Jenny?
From the hint you gave it seemed Porter and her beau might have been Jenny and David.
As far as a load of animals on a ship I'm not sure which book you are referring to. I remember a book by Gerald Durrel called "My Family and Other Animals" that had animals on board their ship. The Life of PI also has an animal and Dr. Dolittle, the love of my childhood, had oodles of animals on his adventures to Africa.
What book am I forgetting?
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How about the Bible and Noah's ark?
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Let's begin with Bebe. The Huttens dote on their dog, and he enjoys their genuine love. The Professor holds him up as a fine example of good character, the result of good breeding and training. What he finds lacking in Ric and Rac.
I watched the movie last night and found it strangely moving. As one character says, what fools we are to think we can find lasting love. Even the doctor feels he has found it with La Condesa, just to hear it dismissed by the captain as another shipboard romance who then gets a faceful of brandy for his wisdom. As for La Condesa she leaves the ship without a backward glance. (Was that a slit-second glance as she is getting into the car?)
It's not true to the book. How could it be? Herr Lowenthal is not exactly the confident, extroverted man in the movie. He goes through his inner turmoil. And so did Herr Graf, in the book. What a fool, thinking he could buy his place at the captain's table.
As for Mrs. Treadwell. That manhater. She finally gets a chance to show her pent-up anger in beating Denny half to death. Those spikes are lethal weapons. Women shouldn't be allowed to wear them.
The missing love between Jenny and David? Too close to home to comment on.
A great twentieth-century journey. Thanks for the memory.
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Well, I've landed, and I'm really glad to get off that boat. I'm probably as fed up with the characters as they are with each other. They are mostly so resentful of everyone and everything, so sensitive to perceived slights (of course many of them also have to put up with very vicious slights) yet so eager to make cutting remarks to everyone else.
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But I'm not sorry I read the book, and there certainly is plenty to comment on.
Ric and Rac: barring a miracle, they do seem to be beyond redemption. They'll be lucky if they just end up like their parents, and not in jail. But Ric will be able to escape fighting in WWII. Since Spain was neutral, he just has tp get through the Spanish Civil War.
Hans, on the other hand seems better off. His alcoholic father is a huge problem, but at least he is loved, and being raised with principles. He may turn out to be no worse than the other characters.
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Joan : Re: Dr. Schumann : You are correct .
In the novel , while he experiences episodes of Angina because of his
heart disease, he does not die .
In the film he does and his wife and son do meet his coffin
at Bremerhaven.
In addition , in the novel he provides La Contessa with a prescription for
her addictive drugs when she arrives at her destination . She is despondent about living as a
prisoner in exile at her new destination. This is possibly the best he can do for her under
the circumstances. He infers I believe that he will keep in contact periodically but does not
accompany her off the ship to her destination.
I am responding purely based on memory as I had to return the book to the library
one month ago after completion of the novel.
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retired - it seems to me if Hollywood took the liberty with Porter's story - to kill off Dr. Schumann before the ship reached Bremmerhaven, then there must have been other "improvements that irked the author. I didn't understand why they had to do that. What did it add to the story?
Porter, however, did not explain why the Condesa did not respond to the doctor's note he sent her, asking her to respond before the ship left Tenerife at 4pm. I had hoped that the author would have cleared up that mystery before the book ended. Did I miss something? I thought that was important - What did her silence mean?
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"Hans may turn out to be no worse than the other characters." PatH
Pat, after reading the incident - when Herr and Frau Baumgarten "made up" - I wondered what impression that incident would have on Hans in the future. If daddy hurts mommy and mommy says it's alright - and seems happy... I wondered if he wouldn't turn out to have just the same attitudes towards women that we saw in the other men on the boat...and the women putting up with their control and abuse.
"Mary Treadwell. That manhater. She finally gets a chance to show her pent-up anger in beating Denny half to death." Jonathan
It's that same "pent-up anger" we've seen in many of the women in this book, isn't it? "As one character says, "what fools we are to think we can find lasting love. "
Golly, Jonathan, do you really think this was Porter's feeling as she wrote this book?
Did anyone come from this novel with hope for the future?
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At some point I started to note the many animals Porter was using to describe the characters, beginning with Herr Rieber - often referred to as a pig. I'll go find the animals in the morning...the comparisons were so apt. Then, I started imagining the ship populated with all of these animals - and couples, pairs. Which led me to imagining Captain Thiele as Noah, determined to get this ship, this ark of wrangling animals into port.
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Reference to Herr Reiber as a Pig :
In my estimation a very appropriate reference for this character.
His constant inappropriate behavior with Fraulein Lizzi was a good example.
Hiding with her in dark corners of the ship and under tarpins covering a life
in order to pet and fondle her with the objective to have sex with her was
amusing for the reader .
She was no better in shipboard behavior than him .
Her attitude and behavior to other minorities on board just as despicable.
I laughed when she finds out that Herr Reiber is married , has three children and
his family dislike him . He is separated from wife and family . They apparently
do not want him back.
She avoids his sexual overtures after that .
She had hoped for a proposal of marriage .
He for a sexual conquest.
Birds of a feather attracted to each other . Neither achieving a goal .
She for commitment . He for an affair.
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They kind of deserved each other, didn't they.
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OH yes, Rieber and Lizzi did deserve on another, PatH - it was impossible to sympathize with either one of them. But what of David and Jenny? Those two frightened me - they knew they were ill-suited to one another, and yet they seem unable to break from one another. Are they are headed for an unhappy marriage.
retired, I went back to my "animal" notes...and noted, that Lowenthal, as a pariah in a swinish Gentile society
avoids pork, "detests Rieber, that pig."
More...
Rieber, dancing "like a faun with little polished hoofs."
Lizzie, runs off, "an anguished peahen." Lizzi - "eyes like a beaten dog"
Everyone going to party, like sheep.
Mrs. T's German officer - a "goatish gleam in his eye"
Baumgarten's jeering wife, "a female viper."
Mrs. T, "smirking like a cat."
David had seen Pastora running from Denny, "like a frightened rabbit."
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"...the Captain and Dr. Schumann's weariness with the passengers rejecting all human kinship with them and their dirty lives, deserving death?."
Alright, the Captain and Dr. Schumann are appalled at the behavior of the passengers, reject human kinship with them. Do they have any obligation to speak up - or is Porter indicating that their silence implies sympathy with their dirty lives.
The Captain tells Dr. Schumann - "the passengers don't know how to behave on ship - or on land either." Would you say that Dr. Schumann and the Captain knew how to behave? There is reason to believe that "ship behavior" is different from land behavior. 'What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas' kind of behavior. But the Captain is saying here that people don't know how to behave - anywhere. I
Is Porter making a comment on the moral disintegration of society in general in the years leading up to WWII?
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In my opinion Porter sees the world through a "jaundiced eye."
She peopled her boat with these horrible people to prove a point.
Yes, the German moral world was, for the most part, disintegrating and being filled with" anti-everything but us" ideas.
Yet there was a place for others to sail instead of this load of (mostly) vipers if the author had so chosen.
Perhaps she was trying to open the world's eyes to the horror of Nazism. But 1961 was a little late to do that.
I still wonder if the venom was really inside of her or if she was just reporting what she had seen?
Guess we will never know.
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Thank you:
Thank you Pat and Joan , Host and Discussion leader for the opportunity to sail along
on this very provocative story : Ship Of Fools .
Your attentive responses to our comments and thought provoking questions as the story progressed were appreciated .
I hope to join another book discussion in the future and would look forward to seeing both of you at the " helm".
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Jude, did you sense that Porter was weary at the end - that she had lost the passion she had for the subject back in the 40's when she began the book? Sometimes I felt she worked it too hard. There was plenty to consider, but it was a long difficult journey over rough seas at times. I can't say that I was sorry as the ship pulled into the harbor.
Thank you for staying with it. It was interesting and helpful to hear different viewpoints.
Here's hoping that you will join us in the next project - our discussion of Charles Dickens' Bleak House will begin on February 15. Marcie and I will be there at the helm, retired - along with PatH, JoanK and Babi.
We're celebrating Dickens' 200th birthday right now - you are invited to join us Here (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2819.msg146510#new)
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Retired, I much appreciated your pithy summaries of the characters, and bits of the book. They added to my understanding. I too hope to see you in more discussions.
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I can't find it now, but JoanP pointed out that in some ways Jenny was more like Porter herself than Mrs. Treadwell. I decided that maybe Jenny was the young Porter in 1931, when she actually made the voyage, and Mrs. Treadwell was Porter as she became by the time she was finishing the book. While I was looking for something else today, I found a hint, top of p. 416. David is walking with Mrs Treadwell, noticing her behavior. "She behaved in fact like Jenny, except...". He goes on to compare and contrast the two for a moment, before shifting into his irritation mode.
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I think you too for this discussion. I had to quit reading - I found I resented the time spent on that book when there were others out there with more interesting characters and plots. I think it was me, not the book or the discussion, which I continued to follow along with because I sampled later parts of the book.
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I was curious to see what people said about the book when it came out, so I looked it up in the New York Times archives. The review was very favorable, not very long, and rather general. There was also an interview with Porter. The first and last scenes were written first, and are almost unchanged. She knew all along what the people in the book were going to do, but "...there were times when I didn't know why they were doing it, and so I would have to wait until I found out." She said "...it is the same book it started out to be." She had the scenes in mind early on, and kept rearranging them as she worked out the structure of the book.
La Condesa was a real person on Porter's voyage. The interviewer sees her as a center of courage and individuality, which isn't how I see her. I see her as having lost her courage, though she is fighting a sort of last-ditch retreat.
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PatH
How interesting!Glad you researched a really good resource.
La Condessa was totally dependent on drugs to continue living. I wonder if Porter used drugs?
Four marriages and four divorces. How did she deal with that?
I certainly would understand if she used drugs to deal with the misery and heartbreak.
The good Doctor certainly saw something moving and appealing in the Condessa. Perhaps that she was clear as to who she was and what she needed to continue living.
She also stood for a good cause as opposed to all the Nazis on the ship.
Thanks for giving me the ability to see this character in a different light.
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nlhome - I can appreciate what you are saying. It wasn't just you. Many of us felt swamped at times, at sea. Thanks you for staying with us.
PatH - I can see Porter as the young Jenny - and then as Mary Treadwell in later years. And I found that interview with the author extremely interesting. If she wrote the last scene first, and then let the characters do what they wanted during the voyage, that kills the idea that she didn't know how to end the book.
Jude, I can see why you'd ask if Porter might have used drugs herself - not only did she portray the Condesa's drug problem, but also many of her short story heroines were also addicted to drugs or alcohol. Funny, that here men were alcohol abusers, rather than drugs. She treats these women with such care, concern and sympathy. Would she also be an abuser, knowing how these women suffered?
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In the front of the book Porter says "The title of this book is a translation from the German of Das Narrenschiff, a moral allegory by Sebastian Brant (1458?-1521).... When I began thinking about my novel, I took for my own this simple almost universal image of the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity. It is by no means new--it was very old and durable and dearly familiar when Brant used it, and it suits my purpose exactly. I am a passenger on that ship."
This reminded me of something, though it took a while to track down the quote. It's from the Venerable Bede, describing what was said to King Edwin to convince him (and through him the whole of Northumbria) to convert to Christianity:
"The present life of man, O King, seems to me, in comparison of that time which is unknown to us, like to the swift flight of a sparrow through the room wherein you sit at supper in winter, with your commanders and retainers, and a good fire in the midst, whilst the storms of rain and snow prevail abroad; the sparrow, I say, flying in at one door, and immediately out at another, whilst he is within, is safe from the wintry storm; but after a short space of fair weather, he immediately vanishes out of your sight, into the dark winter from which he had emerged. So this life of man appears for a short space, but of what went before, or what is to follow, we are utterly ignorant. If, therefore, this new doctrine contains something more certain, it seems justly to deserve to be followed."
It's an unforgettable image, and the whole book seems like that to me. We are watching the sparrow briefly flashing through our hall, a segment in the middle, and we don't know the beginning or end.
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..."the sparrow, I say, flying in at one door, and immediately out at another, whilst he is within, is safe from the wintry storm; but after a short space of fair weather, he immediately vanishes out of your sight, into the dark winter from which he had emerged." Venerable Bede
PatH - do you think Porter sees "that brief segment in the middle", "the short space of fair weather" - - the short life we each spend on earth, our "hall"? "We don't know the beginning or end."
I'm remembering the quote you brought us the other day - in which Porter stated that she knew the beginning and the end of her story before she wrote the book...just didn't know what was going to go on in that hall, until she wrote it. This is what I found depressing about the lives on board that ship. Porter seemed to be saying that the passengers did not know how to live that brief segment in the middle.
One passenger after another expresses this negative approach to life. How many wanted to die, one way or another? How many feel it is too late to do anything about the injustice they see around them - so they do nothing? Glocken, who regrets not standing up for himself when under attack, the passengers who witnessed the Spanish dancers cheat and steal, but do nothing. Glocken begs David not to sleep - "Life is too dangerous on this ship. Nobody is safe.
Mary Treadwell, thinks everything absurd, is tired of moral bookkeeping. Not concerned at all about OTHERS. "Hateful indifference," David calls it. Frau Schmitt sees an "evil world" - in which she is helpless."
Jenny and David imagine spending an entire lifetime with their detested games. Jenny, a prisoner in herself Hansen - people don't listen, except to nonsense. The Captain sees the moral turpitude...but prefers to stay to himself, wondering why he let such disorder thrive. daydreaming of mowing them all down with guns - an idea from American movies. The young bride who wishes to die young, while she is still beautiful.
The list goes on. At one point Dr. Schumann tells the captain there are still very decent people on board the ship. The Captain replies, "show me one." The doctor is silent.
So my question...is Porter painting a hopeless picture of man's inability to value the life that he does have, to make the most of that brief time in the hall? Or is she issuing a warning not to live life as these foolish passengers? I'm hoping that we come away from reading the book with an understanding of the foolish way the passengers on the ship were wasting their lives - and we are inspired to learn from them - to become more conscious of our own shortcomings - before we leave the hall.
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Thanks Joan for a fine summing up.
It was a memorabl journey albeit a difficult one.
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Yes, that was a hard book to read and discuss, also to lead. But we did it, and now we're in the harbor. Thanks to everyone for making the discussion so memorable, and to our fearless leaders JoanP and marcie for tackling it. JoanP, your careful analyses were crucial for us, and I know how much work they must have taken. Thanks.
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Thanks everyone - every single post brought us closer to land - I doubt Ms. Porter has ever had a more attentive audience as we tried to understand her message. Don't you wish we could have had the author's input? Nah, it was more fun this way!
Till next time...