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Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/oldlady.jpg)
the little old lady |
INSTALMENT
I
II |
DATE of PUBLICATION
March 1852
April 1852 |
CHAPTERS
1-4
5-7 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Feb.15-19
Feb.20-24 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mrsjellyby.jpg)
Mrs. Jellyby |
Some Topics to Consider
1. What does Dickens relate in the Preface about the two major themes in Bleak House? Have you seen examples of these themes in the first instalment?
2. How does Dickens describe the Court procedings of the Jarndyce case using a comparison with the London weather? Is there any way of calculating how long the Jarndyce and Jarndyce cause has been going on?
3. Do you think the little old lady is going to play a larger role in the story? What do you think is in that "reticule" she's carrying?
4. Do you see any connection between the Dedlocks and the Jarndyce cause? Why do you think Lady Dedlock may have fainted dead away when she saw the handwriting on the document her legal advisor brought to her attention?
5. Does Dickens paint a sympathetic portrait of Esther Summerson? Were you surpised when Esther became the narrator and expressed her feelings? Why can't she love the women who have cared for her since her birth?
6. Upon her death, Esther 's godmother is revealed as her aunt. "Aunt in fact, not in law." What do you think are the implications in this?
7. Is it clear why John Jarndyce has sent for Esther, Ada Clare and Richard Carstone, all three of them his wards, all three orphans? How are they related?
8. What do you think of John Jarndyce's high opinion of Mrs. Jellyby? How is Dickens using this character? Do you think Esther will forget Caddy Jellyby? |
Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html);
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Oh do come in out of the fog and the damp and dreary! You'll catch a death of cold! Find a comfy chair and something warm to sip as we prepare to spend the first day of many together, comparing notes on what many say is Dickens' finest novel. It is so wonderful to have so many of you with us!
As you may know, Dickens told his story in monthly instalments (that's the British spelling of the word) - (20 of them!) - leaving his readers to ponder what happens next - much as we do, waiting for the next showing of Downton Abbey. We'll do the same thing - divide the discussion into those same instalment chapters... So this week, we'll begin with the first instalment, Chapters 1-4 as was published back in March, 1852. But we won't wait a month to discuss Instalment #2. The first instalment is approximately 45 pages, depending on whether you are reading the hardcover, the paperback, or electronically. Let's experiment and see if five days on the each of the early instalments feels right. If you have trouble keeping up - or if you feel we are moving too slowly, please let us know. We're depending on your input.
Keep an eye on the heading at the top of every page for the discussion schedule - tTry your best not to go ahead of the schedule, but you can always go back, okay?
Your first impressions? Do you hear Dickens' voice already in these early chapters? Did you think his Preface was important - or did you skim through it? Really looking forward to hearing from you!
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Welcome, welcome! It's warm and cozy in this discussion, have a hot toddy and pull your chair up to the fire. We finally get started on our journey through Dickens' England. Whether this is your first time, or you've been here many times before, I'll bet you've never been here with such good company as we shall be. So who wants to propose a toast?
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Welcome, everyone. I'm looking forward to reading Bleak House with you. I've seen a couple of film/TV versions but have not read the book. It should be lots of fun meeting all of the odd and humorous characters that people this book.
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At last! Now we can get down to the book itself, well-fortified by all the things we've learned already. Welcome to all, and a toast to our journey together.
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Marking my place - So far I've only read half the preface...
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I'm here.
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Dicken's style of writing seems so different from Great Expectations.
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I mis-read the instructions and read the first 5 chapters this morning - however, I usually get way behind in these group reads, so maybe it's no bad thing....
Re the weather and the court, I presume Dickens is getting at the fact that Chancery is hide-bound in legal claptrap - no-one can see through the fog to the salient points of Jarndyce v Jarndyce, - and presumably the lawyers don't want to because it's their bread and butter, as it was their fathers' and grandfathers'.
I also imagine that Esther's aunt is referred to as such 'in fact not law' because Esther was born out of wedlock?
Not sure about the other questions yet - and this is me who has read the book before, but with my usual outstanding memory I have only the vaguest of recollection as to what actually happens. As I used to say to Madeleine when she could never remember which lessons she had at school 'It will all be a lovely surprise' (I wouldn't say that now....if looks could kill they certainly will, as the song goes).
Rosemary
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Joan - I did post a reply about London fog a few days ago but it seems to have disappeared. The fogs that descended on London until the middle of the last century were caused by pollution from coal fires and factories. They were notorious and very damaging to people's health.
Here is a link to a Wikipedia (sorry) article about the great fog of 1952, which eventually led to the passing of the Clean Air Acts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_1952
As a result of these, coal could no longer be burned in designated areas - I grew up in the London suburbs in the 1960s and we had to have something called 'smokeless fuel' for our open fire. You can still burn ordinary coal outside the cities.
Iris Murdoch's novel "A Severed Head" is set largely in London during a long fog, and gives a good idea of what it was like - though of course by the 1950s they did at least have electric light, whereas in Dickens' day it was all flickering candles.
Rosemary
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the first thing that struck me after rereading the introduction in my copy of 'Bleak House', was re; Charles Dickens
the question of whether he was harsh with his wife for instances like ? tripping over her feet when walking and falling... & being upset by his children with their 'bumping and yelling' (sounds sort of like normal ways of being for children especially when putting 10 together in one household)--from introduction
while
in chapter 4 he characterizes Mrs Jellyby's absorption in her 'African work' so enthralling to her that she neglects or doesn't seem to care about her children daily needs; the child with his head caught in the railing, the child that falls down stairs
this beloved author!!
rosemary--that was fascinating about the London fogs & I went on to read about links to fog/smog situations in the United States
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I was surprised about how "fogless" London was when I first travelled there. I didn't see any fog the entire week. Now I understand that much of it was "smog".
What a plethora of characters!! I am trying to jot brief descriptions of each to help me keep track. Hope it works. I feel very sorry for Esther Summerson. I assume that she was born out of wedlock. I think she can't feel love for those who care for her since they are always implying that she has been a burden and a shame for her family.
Mrs. Jellyby seems to bee such a "ditz". Her children and her house are filthy. Mrs. Jellyby just assumes that they will take care of themselves.
Sally
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yet he seemed empathetic to the children's needs in chapter 4 of 'Bleak House' by showing kind hearted Esther's compassion when she comes upon the children's needs
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Oh, splendid, I see we're off to a great start! I will just sample that toddy,
thank you. I've never tasted one before.
SALLY, I think there is going to be a link that will list all the characters, with a
word of two about them or their relationships. Hopefully, that will be helpful and
save you some note taking.
The topic questions are great. At this point, there seems to be no connection
between Jarndyce & Jarndyce and the Dedlocks, but Lady Dedlock's faint on
seeing that handwriting suggests rather strongly that she recognized it. No only
recognized it, but was profoundly affected.
I would think we would see Miss Flite again. She seems to be a fixture in the
Court of Chancery.
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I'll agree, Babi - we're off to a roaring start - and we've hardly begun to fill the room! Sally is right about the "plethora" of characters. It will be difficult to keep them straight. We toyed with the idea of putting in a link to one of the many lists of characters available on the web - BUT they were so full of spoilers, gave away so much of the plot, that we thought better of it.
Babi solved the problem - by creating her own list of characters - by group. It's perfect, I think, because it identifies the characters just enough to let you know who they are and where they fit into the story, without revealing the plot. Here's a link to Babi's list - one of our DLs plans to print it out and keep it near as she reads. She can scribble notes on the sheet as she reads too. Good idea?
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html)
The list now appears in the heading - under Related links. Keep an eye on the heading - we plan to add all sorts of links to helpful information - maps and the like.
Another tip - keep an eye on Rosemary's posts...foggy Londontown is her old stomping ground, though she lives in Scotland now. AND, she has first-hand memories as "a trainee solicitor I spent many, many hours sitting around at court waiting for something to happen"
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kidsal - your comment on Dickens' writing style being different than you remember from Great Expectations caused me to look up the publication dates. We know that Bleak House was published in 1852-53; Great Expectations was published between December 1860 to August 1861 .
Do you notice a difference in subject matter, character description, use of the language? Someone commented on his wordiness in Bleak House. It's been so many years since I read (and loved) Great Expectations that I only remember the plot line now - and nothing specific about the style.
I'm wondering when he wrote the Preface to Bleak House. Do you think he included it in the original magazine-like publications - or later, when all of the instalments were put together in book form. I paid close attention to what he was saying in the Preface - as I thought it was the author speaking directly to his readers about what he intended to say in the novel.
I'm going to add here that I'm not happy with the paragraphs in the heading that describes this novel. It was more than Esther Summerson's story, poor, poor unfortunate girl. From the Preface we learn that Dickens had another purpose in writing this story...as he tells us of his two main themes in the story. I hope you can help to flesh out the description of the novel for our heading here.
Enough from me just now - want to hear from you!
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I have read very little Dickens, mostly just know “about” his works or perhaps seen a film.
My first thoughts as I started Bleak House went back to someone here asking if Dickens was paid by the word. But then in jumps Mr. Tangle with utmost sparseness.
“Begludship’s pardon -- boy.
“Begludship’s pardon – dead”
Is there supposed to be humor here? I seem to be finding some. Jarndyce & Jarndyce -- euphemism for “til h___ freezes over”
While reading this first installment – and I like that idea very much – one can’t help but think of Dickens’ readers. What did they think of that first chapter when they read about the fog? Who were these readers? All upper class or some common folk, too.? Did they talk about Esther around the 1852-style workplace water fountain? Does Dickens leave them hanging at the end of each instalment (haven’t quite finished Chpt. 4)
I was glad when Dickens gave Esther the microphone – the better to get to know her. How would she know how to love the women who cared for her – she herself was really not shown any love.
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Thanks Joan P for that list of characters. I printed it out and willput the chapter number by each name as we come to that character.
The question about "who was Dickens writing for?" and "What was the literacy rate?" sent me to research that matter. Here is what I found:
In 1850 England had 16% of its population in school. By 1887 there was 16%.
By 1850 the printing and publishing industry was very developed. The highly widespread railway system allowed the sending of newspapers and magazines to most parts of the country.
The literacy was growing rapidly and this led to a large market for easily read , cheap books ,magazines and newspapers.
There was also a well developed Postal system by 1850. A mass of books , magazines and ADVERTISEMENTS, were sent by post. The adverts gave much work to 'jobbing' printers.
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Sorry about my mistake!
The literacy rate in1850 was 12%. But if one person in a household could read he would read aloud to the other members.
No television or radio so reading alloud filled the void.
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Fascinating about the fog. i knew it was partly caused by coal, but assumed that London was also very foggy. I love Dickens' description of it and symbolic use of it.
I like the idea of fog today. It's one of the 12 days a year we have rain here in Southern california. I miss rain so much, I went and sat on my (covered) porch, drinking hot lemonade and watching the rain. We had planned a walk on the beach: we may go anyway.
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"Mrs. Jellyby" is a typuical Dickens character: he takes one characteristic and exaggerates it. As an old social activist, I recognize her, and also recognize the exaggerated portrait that is used to belittle social activists (why don't you go home and take care of your husband). Of course, no one asks why MR. jellyby, who doesn't seem to have anything to do, doesn't get the house organized and see that the house and chuildren are taken care of.
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From the preface: 'In Bleak House I have purposely dwelt upon the romantic side of familiar things. I believe I have never had so many readers as in this book. May we meet again.
That makes it sound like a pleasant read, doesn't it? After just telling us about the 'monstrous wrong from beginning to end', of the history of the Court of Chancery, as set up in the time of Richard the Second! For added interest he will throw in an unusual case of Spontaneous Combustion. How romantic can you get?
In the heading we are promised a happy ending to the story. What a miraculous feat for the author. He recognizes the impossible odds himself. As he puts it:
This is the Court of Chancery; which has its decaying houses and its blighted lands in every shire; which has its worn-out lunatic in every madhouse, and its dead in every churchyard; which has its ruined suitor, with his slipshod heels and threadbare dress, borrowing and begging through the round of every man's acquaintance; which gives to monied might the means abundantly of wearying out the right; which so exhausts finances, patience, courage, hope; so overthrows the brain and breaks the heart; that there is not an honourable man among its practionerers who would not give - who does not does not often give - the warning, 'Suffer any wrong that can be done you, rather than come here!'
Imagine. Discovering Dickens at my age! (If I had scored as high in that bloody test I would have been delighted.) What luck. Finding myself in the company of such enthusiastic Dickens readers. And let's not forget. His readers included such distinguished people as Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud. One saw revolution down the road. And the other plumbed the depths of the human psyche.
That makes the preface sound very promising. Or very reassuring. Or what?
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Actually I'm rediscovering Dickens. I read Little Dorrit when I was twelve. I was captivated. It taught me how to feel for others. I'm beginning to think of Dickens as another Ancient Mariner. The reader cannot choose but listen.
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First Chapter even more than the Preface is like a Junoesque, Rubenesque, Runyonesque Arabesque as they dance to the bejeweled tune wreathed in opposites of mud, red tables and silk gowns. What a lark – it is his telling of it that makes you laugh outloud. If you haven't yet, suggestion, read it outloud - your tongue rolls without a sputter finalizing the romp with a crashing word ending each sentence - it is magical and hilarious.
Don’t you love this – reminds me of Congress in action today.
...mistily engaged in one of the ten thousand stages of an endless cause, tripping one another up on slippery precedents, groping knee-deep in technicalities, running their goat-hair and horsehair warded heads against walls of words and making a pretence of equity with serious faces, as players might.
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OH yes, all a reticule is - is one of those draw string bags most of us used when we were kids to swing over our shoulders carrying our pencil, notebook and whatever we were going to eat for lunch. However, for a lady in the nineteenth century they were often small made of silk or velvet and beaded with a beaded fringe or more simple made of black wool, lined with braided cords to pull the bag closed and used as today we use a handbag.
(http://roses-and-teacups.com/2011Nan/copperchocopurse4.jpg)
During the mid Victorian era this would have been a new article of clothing - not too long before women had deep pockets that they used to carry things with them.
The squeezed bonnet seems to be an expression that I cannot find specializing the bonnet although photos and prints of scenes from the book show this kind of bonnet - in the story the bonnet is black where as this one is maroon.
(http://www.ladiesemporium.com/store/media/003024_sm.jpg)
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So much good stuff here today! - We seem to be zeroing in on the puzzling contrasts that define Charles Dickens and his writing. Jonathan refers to that Preface - and asks it is, "promising. Or very reassuring. Or what?" Dickens is writing about serious problems - the obsolete, slow-moving, court system, ruining the lives of so many - and philanthropists - do gooders, like Mrs. Jellyby, neglecting her own children, while devoting her life to cultivating coffee in Africa. What is he saying about those who try to help others.
Pedln asks if there is humor here - she thinks she's feeling it. Do you? Dickens tells his readers in the Preface that what he is writing is true. The truth is painful, isn't it? JoanK - do you think humor can be found in the exaggerated portrayal of one characteristic - like Mrs. Jellyby? You make an interesting observation - What's going on with Mr. Jellyby?
We need to watch Dickens closely - the sub-stories going on beneath the plot... And then when we find out what they are, we can edit the description in the heading...
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Jude, thanks for checking on Dickens' readership. The fact that these monthly instalments were inexpensive, they would reach the very people who could appreciate them. Do you think the very wealthy were also fans?
"Magical and hilarious." No wonder his readers loved these installments, Barb. I love the idea of the family sitting before the fire as the person who could read in the family, read his words alive. Was there anyone like Dickens at the time - telling stories that would appeal to all ages, on some level./10/
That reticule is such a tiny bag, Barb...I was surprised...What is "the old lady" carrying in hers? I'd imagined something a bit larger - crammed full of documents..8/10 - documents, at least. She's really a person of interest - I don't think we've seen the end of her, do you? Babi - you were calling her by name. I don't remember that - but will be relieved to be calling her something besides "little old lady" - Here's an enlarged version of the illustration in the heading - can you see the handbags the ladies are carrying? The reticules?
Not really - but they must be the squeeze bonnets, don't you think?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/oldlady.jpg)
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Oh my! What a description of the mud and fog. Dickens is certainly not wanting to forget anything - Megalosaurus waddling up the hill? http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/dinosaurs-other-extinct-creatures/dino-directory/detail.dsml?Genus=Megalosaurus Back in Dicken's time they thought it walked on all four legs.
Then there is the ait, which I discovered is a small river island. Well, we have lots of those on the Susquehanna. Next I found a picture of a model of a collier brig. http://www.lostbrig.net/latest_news/model_collier_brig.JPG I like this because of the detail. These brigs carried coal. This model, I think, is supposed to be a close match to what the brig, Elizabeth Jane, out of Nova Scotia and sunk near Yorkshire.
I haven't gone but a few paragarphs, and already I am exploring. Lincoln's Inn Hall http://www.lincolnsinn.org.uk/index.php/history-of-the-inn/historic-buildings-ca/the-old-hall
Forgive me, I can't help myself. Temple Bar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Bar,_London
I just love the association of the real fog and mud with the fog and muddiness of the Court of Chancery.
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I read A Tale of Two Cities in high school and can barely remember it, so as for Dickens' style I feel like I am being introduced to him for the first time with reading Bleak House. I must say the on going description of the fog in the first chapter was a bit tiresome for me. I remember reading Dickens liked to be very wordy in his writings and I could see that in the ongoing fog.....
"Fog everywhere. Fog up the river, where it flows among green aits and meadows; fog down the river, where it rolls deified among the tiers of shipping and the waterside pollutions of great (and dirty) city. Fog on the Essex marshes, fog on the Kentish heights. Fog creeping into the caboose of the collier-brigs; fog lying out on the yards and hovering in the rigging of great ships; fog drooping on the gunwales of barges and small boats. Fog in the eyes and throats of ancient Greenwich pensioners, wheezing by the firesides of their wards; fog in the stem and bowl of the afternoon pipe of the wrathful skipper; down in his close cabin; fog cruelly pinching the toes and fingers of his shivering little 'prentice boy on deck."
Needless to say he goes on and on and on about the fog. Why do you suppose he felt the necessity to describe the fog for almost an entire chapter?
In reading The Life and Time of Charles Dickens in the preface of my nook book, he worked as a clerk in law offices and did not think highly for law firms so it did not surprise me to see him express these feelings when he speaks of Jarndyce and Jarndyce. He shows the law firm has dragged this suit on over generations and I especially giggled at this, "The little defendant who was promised a new rocking-horse when Jarndyce and Jarndyce should be settled has grown up, possessed himself a real horse, and trotted away into the other world."
Yes, I am finding humor as pedln mentions. The names are cracking me up Mr. Chizzle, Mizzle, and Mr. Tulkinghorn. lolol
Who is she? "little mad old woman is always in in a squeezed bonnet who is always in court, from its sitting to its rising, and always expecting some incomprehensible judgement to be given in her favour. Some say she really is, or was, a party to a suit, but no one knows for certain because no one cares."
I am really liking the book and feeling attached to Esther. When she speaks of her childhood, it is so touching for me. More on Esther later.
There are many characters to keep up with, so thank you so much for the list. I will print it out and use it to help me keep them straight.
Ciao for now~
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Thanks for the list of characters. I have printed it out & will make my notes on it. I have to know the characters I am reading about; and too many characters confuse me. Maybe that's why I always had trouble reading Tolstoy.
Sally
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When I first read Bleak House in 1948 I was not surprised by all the mention of fog, because I was well use to fog. I would go to the cinema and when I came out all the buses would have stoppped and I would have to walk three miles home. You could not see more than a foot or two in front, but strangely I never felt afraid, figures would loom up out of the fog and we would exchange greetings. The one good point was that we had electric lamps which were not available in Dicken's time. Your footsteps would take you from one lamp to the next.
I would also like to comment on the point that Johnathan made about the Court of Chancery "Suffer any wrong that can be done you rather than come here". My husband, who was a Barrister, always said keep out of court even if you are sure you are in the right, in court there are no guarantees
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Oh, I always pay attention to ROSEMARY's posts. I've enjoyed them so much. I'm expecting the same here.
JOANP, a footnote in the Preface indicates that it was written in Aug. 1853. I'm
guessing it was written for the publication of the book, after the final monthly installment.
The clincher for me, in the Preface, was the quote from a Chancery Judge,
who said "There had been he admitted, a trivial blemish or so in its rate of progress,
but this was exaggerated, and had been entirely owing to the 'parsimony of the public'. Oh, my! I wonder in what manner the public was being parsimonious? Perhaps declining
to pay more lawyers more fees to do obscure things?
PEDLN, that side character seems to me a sketch of a type that can't be bothered to speak
distinctly; the idle, layabout aristocrat, who mumbles to show his utter indifference to all things.
I would think publishing the story in intallments would mean they were easily available
to the general public. I don't think 'society' would have been all that pleased with
his depiction of them.
Dickens does use exaggeration to convey his opinion of certain types. He doesn't seem
to care much for officious women. He much prefers those like Esther. As for Mr. Jellyby,
I can't help but think that if he had more backbone, his wife might have been less
dismissive of him and her role as housewife/mother.
JONATHAN, perhaps Dickens meant our favorite characters would have a happy ending. Or,
if we are contrary types, those he approved of. ::)
BELLAMARIE, perhaps he was setting the mood. Since he was about to introduce us to
Chancery, which goes on and on with nothing clear, chilling and discouraging. I think
you will find Dickens is very good at mood setting.
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Good morning, Babi!
- I seem to remember the parsimony having to do with the unwillingness to take on more judges - thus the backlog of cases...plenty of lawyers though.
Bellamarie - your comment about how the law firm has dragged this suit on over generations - reminded me of a note I took down - "the suit before the Court now began nearly 20 years ago. 30 0r 40 counsel have appeared at one time."
Nancymc - your husband, the Barrister's comment pretty much echos what Dickens observed, doesn't it? - "keep out of court even if you are sure you are in the right, in court there are no guarantees." Where did you grow up with such fog that stopped busses. I don't think I ever experienced such fog...
Frybabe - loved the links - to the Lincoln's Inn Hall. Reading the history, it sounds as if it was carefully restored to what it was in the 19th century. I marvel over the fact that so many of these buildings in London stand today as they were in Dickens' time. (and long before that!) I'll bet Rosemary has been inside of Lincoln's Inn Hall...) The buildings in the Temple Bar link are a good example. (I've got Yale's Whiffenenpoof song in my head now - "To the tables down at Mories, to the place where Louis dwells, to the dear old Temple Bar we loved so well..." if you can hear this, I'll bet you have it in your head for the rest of the day - The Whiffenpoof Song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ5GnmMUW-s)
From that link:
Bleak HouseThe most famous use of the Old Hall as a court is fictional. The opening scene of Bleak House is set here.
“London. Michaelmas Term lately over, and the Lord Chancellor sitting in Lincoln's Inn Hall. Implacable November weather……Fog everywhere. Fog up the river, where it flows among green aits and meadows; fog down the river, where it rolls defiled among the tiers of shipping, and the waterside pollutions of a great (and dirty) city……And hard by Temple Bar, in Lincoln's Inn Hall, at the very heart of the fog, sits the Lord High Chancellor in his High Court of Chancery;”
and before him is the great cause, never to be understood, of Jarndyce v. Jarndyce. Yet the last and most lamentable scene of that case was set not in the Old Hall but in the Court of Chancery in Westminster Hall.
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Here's a great map - if you can get it to work. If you click the link - look for the green patch to the right and click on the map to enlarge - Lincoln Inn is there...Holburn Hill, Chancery Lane, the works. Let us know if it works for you - if not, back to the drawing board. If it works, we'll keep it in the heading.
Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg)
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I used to work in Pump Court in the Temple many years ago - the firm I worked for had offices in the basement of one of the buildings. We were squashed in like sardines but it was a very atmospheric place to work; we sometimes saw John Mortimer staggering across the courtyard. I couldn't find any good photos of Pump Court to post, but I did find this one about Middle Temple (one of the four Inns) - you can 'take a tour' by clicking on the buttons:
http://www.sphericalimages.com/middletemple/
I think most lawyers advise their clients to stay out of court whenever possible - it is only the very rich and the very poor (legally aided by the state) who can afford the astronomical costs involved, and as Nancy's husband says, you never can be sure that you will win, and if you lose you are stuck with paying the other side's costs as well as your own. Many, many people settle 'at the door of the court' to avoid this - it is often purely down to brinksmanship who gives in first.
I wish you could all pay a real visit to the area around Holburn, Chancery Lane and the Inns of Court - it is all steeped in history. I think we Londoners rather took it for granted; I would probably get more out of it going back now.
Rosemary
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Fountain Court looks so inviting to sit and read. There is only one problem with it. I could not detect any fountain.
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This may be off the point but somehow it seems appropriate.
At age two, mother and I went to London to visit her huge family. Dad stayed in N.Y.
I was overwhelmed by the FOG!
I didn't know what to call it or even to ask what it was.
Each morning I awoke crying , pointing to the fog filled window and screamed: I want to go home.It's STUFFY here."
This elicited such laughter that for the rest of my life if I met one of my English relatives the first thing they would say would be" It's stuffy here". and burst into laughter.
Thus the London Fog has trailed after me all these years.
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That's funny, Jude! Funny that your family never let you forget the fog. "Stuffy" is a good way to describe the fog - AND a good way to describe the court procedings...
... So that's where the "London Fog" raincoat logo comes from! Never thought about it before - in connection with this thick fog.
Rosemary, from what you say, the Jarndyce family must have been quite wealthy to carry on this case for 20 years! The lawyers are getting paid royally, but who is paying court costs? Is this a matter of Jarndyce versus Jarndyce? I can't imagine anyone believed the thing was ever going to be settled.
I thought Lady Dedlock was back in London from her country place in Lincolnshire -- I thought her place was Bleak House. But no. I was quite wrong. Dickens spends much time describing this "lady", but is the Dedlock connection to the Jarndyce cause? Is "cause" the same thing as "case"?
Her lawyer, her solicter, comes to her house to keep her informed of the court procedings each day...What did Mr. Tulkinghorn come to tell her? While he goes on about the case, LadyD happens to see handwriting that she recognizes on one of the papers he's holding, - which causes her to faint dead away. Aren't you curious? Whose handwriting do you suppose it is?
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Ah, I can see where a judge would resent the public's unwillingness to take on more
judges. Of course, one would think it would motivate them to placate the public by being
more responsive to the time and pocketbooks of suitors.
What a fabulous guided tour, ROSEMARY! And without having to take a step. The rooms
were gorgeous; the portraits fascinating. Thank you so much. (I am supposing Fountain
Court was named after someone, as I did not see a fountain.)
Ah, I see FRYBABE made the same comment.
JOANP, I believe the court costs were taken from the estate. That's why the costs had
to be cleared with the judge. It also explains why even if a judgment were one day
handed down, there might be very little left for the heirs. ROSEMARY can correct me on
that if I'm mistaken.
Now that we are introduced to the Dedlocks, I must say I greatly enjoyed the description of
Sir Leicester. “He is an honourable, obstinate, truthful, high-spirited, extremely prejudiced, perfectly unreasonable man.”
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There's the humor Pedln is seeing, Babi. His descriptions of both men and women are not without that gentle, ironic twist...
He tells us Sir Leicester married Lady Dedlock for love. That word seems not to appear in his description of the lady, does it?
"She has a fine face- originally of a character that would be rather called very pretty than handsome, but improved into classicality by the acquired expression of her fashionable state."
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illchancellor.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illchancellor.jpg)
Lord Chancellor Copies
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
II
III |
DATE of PUBLICATION
April 1852
May 1852 |
CHAPTERS
5-7
8-10 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Feb.20-24
Feb.25-29 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illcoavinses.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illcoavinses.jpg)
Coavinses
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter V
1. Is the little old lady actually involved in a court case? Do you think she will play an important role in the story?
2. On hearing Richard’s name, Krook counts off names on his fingers: Carstone, Barbary, Clare, Dedlock. Who are these?
3. Ada is sad that everyone involved in the suit should be enemies. “It seems very strange, as there must be right somewhere, that an honest judge in real earnest has not been able to find out through all these years where it is.” Do you think we will find out where it is?
Chapter VI
4. What is your impression of Bleak House? Is it actually bleak?
5. Skimpole has an unusual, carefree, parasitic, approach to life. How does he manage to get away with it? Do you approve?
6. John Jarndyce seems to like to help protégés. How many have you spotted so far?
7. Why do you think he has been helping Esther all these years?
Chapter VII
8. Is it just a coincidence that Guppy, a clerk at Kenge and Carboy, visits the Dedlock’s country home? He feels he recognizes Lady Dedlock’s portrait. What do you think is the significance of this?
9. Do you know the history of Charles I (the historical background behind the story of the ghost)? |
Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Thanks for the gorgeous tour of the Middle Temple, Rosemary. Being rather meal oriented, I couldn't help noticing that the places at the dining tables were set with 3 wineglasses each.
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The first chapter is wonderfully effective, with its comparison of the brooding fog and darkness and the mental fog of the court. It has its dark humor too (Eighteen of Mr. Tangle's learned friends, each armed with a little summary of eighteen hundred sheets, bob up like eighteen hammers in a piano-forte, make eighteen bows, and drop into their eighteen places of obscurity.) But it began to weigh me down, and I was glad to escape to the glittering frivolity of Lady Dedlock.
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Shucks, I can't get Rosemary's Middle Court link to work for me. From the enthusiastic reports I conclude that the fog has lifted.
What fun to be stumbling about in the fog that Dickens has created. Thrown into the thick of his plot from page one. There are hints here and there that he himself is feeling his way about. But there is method in his madness. The Chancery Court proceedings remind Barb of Congress in action. And isn't the book itself a kind of State of the Realm report?
Bookad brings up the matter of Dickens' own domestic life. Very apt. I believe Dickens saw himself in Mrs. Jellybe. So preoccupied with his writing that he couldn't possibly have given his family the attention it deserved.
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PatH, Where do you find 'the glittering frivolity of Lady Dedlock'? In the curious literary fog of the first two paragraphs of Chapter 2, the author has her living on the edge, at the brink of the void. These paragraphs seem like an author's masterplan for his book.
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Question 8:Do you think Esther will forget Caddy?
I hope not! Caddy quite impressed me with her sad, perceptive persona. What a terrible life for a smart, sensitive twelve year old.
My impression of Mrs. Jellyby is just what Dickens wanted of us: to be disgusted with a parent who so doesn't care about the welfare of her here and near children while worrying about far away, theoretical children in Africa. Dickens really pushes the envelope , telling of the Jellybys childrens mishaps: falling down seven steps, getting a head caught between posts of a fence etc. These sad, filthy mites also highlight Esthers motherly, caring persona as she reacts to them and they to her. The little ones, all younger than Caddy, probably made Caddy feel even more miserable for them than she feels for her own blighted fate.
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Thanks, Rosemary, for the pictures of Temple Court. That virtual tour was interesting.
Temple Court looks just like the dining hall at Hogwarts in the Harry Potter movies.
Evelyn
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My book has come and I'm finding it so much better to read a "real" book than the Nook! Dickens grabbed me right away with his wonderful atmospheric description of the fog. One can almost see it gathering in the corners of the room! Shivers!
I want to charge right in and send Mrs Jellyby to Africa to pick coffee beans while I rescue her children! He is a very "involving" writer, isn't he? This is going to be a great read.
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The back of my B&M Classics edition states that “Bleak House blends together several literary genres – detective fiction, romance, melodrama, and satire.”
I haven’t seen any romance yet. There hasn’t really been any melodrama yet either. Satire is evident in Dicken’s use of the lawsuit called Jarndyce and Jarndyce and the Court of Chancery. My book contains an appendix explaining the court, which I have read, but only barely absorbed. I need to reread that again now that I have read the first section of the book.
The mysterious parts of the book have peaked my interest. What was in the document that Mr. Tulkinghorn was reading, while Mr. Dedlock was dozing, that made Lady Dedlock faint? What wrong did Esther’s mother do to Esther’s godmother? Who is the lady who addressed Esther, Ada, and Richard when they were waiting outside, claiming she would “confer estates on both?”
My edition contains an interesting endnote regarding Esther.
“While the first-person narrative in which Esther’s portion of the novel is written recalls Charlotte Bronte’s Jane Eyre (1847), the character of Dicken’s orphan is very much the opposite of Bronte’s Jane, whose rebellious attitudes Dickens found objectionable. For her part, Bronte thought that Dicken’s handling of Esther’s narrative was 'weak and twaddling' (letter of March 11, 1852)."
My book contains a character list, in alphabetical order. Babi’s is much more helpful! Thank you.
I’ll have to go back and look at the preface. I didn’t retain it.
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"Weak and twaddling"--hmm, we'll have to see if we agree. What one mostly notices about Esther is how very caring and nurturing she is, a remarkable feat when you consider how very little of such she ever received. And already mysteries aplenty, with more to come, I'm sure. Romance too--it wouldn't be Dickens without romance.
I foresee I'm going to be doing a lot of going back and looking. There's much to much detail to take it all in the first time around.
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Jonathan, I admit Lady Dedlock isn't glittering and frivoling (nice verb) much here, but she is the style-setter for her fashionable set, the one everyone watches, the one who dictates what's the latest fad, and she is about to set off for six weeks in Paris because she's bored with the rain at her country place. So I think she is basically glittering and frivolous.
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Sir Leicester's opinion about the Chancery suit
chapter 2
It is a slow, expensive, British constitutional kind of thing.....even if it should involve an occasional delay in justice and a trifling amount of confusion, as a something, devised in conjunction with a variety of other somethings, by the perfection of human wisdom, for the eternal settlement (humanly speaking) of everything.
...that to give the sanction of his countenance to any complaints respecting it, would be to encourage some person in the lower classes to rise up somewhere-like Wat Tyler.
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/England-History/WatTyler.htm
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Wat_Tyler.aspx
always the aristocratic high brows!! things being done for the sake of appearances and because that was the way it 'has always been done'
I find it interesting 'Wat Tyler' is mentioned as his life and the peasant uprising he was a rebel leader of- occurred 30 + years after the 'black death' around 1331 as the article notes (see web site above) ....some 500 years difference; yet it must have been a 'thorn in the upper crust's side' to be kept in the forefront of mind as something to be wary of occurring again
Wat(Walter) Tyler-occupation roof tiler
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Babi - yes, I'm sure the legal costs would be taken out of the estate - that's still the way it's done when you are doing a probate, the costs being deducted before the heirs get their hands on the cash. Modern law firms will have that written into their Terms of Business Letter, which has to be sent to all clients at the outset - then they can't say nobody told them.
I must admit that I personally get a bit fed up with Esther. She's just too, too perfect so far. I love the portrait of Miss Flite (the old lady) - what a great picture of someone driven slowly mad.
Rosemary
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JoanR - You are a very "book-ish" person - I'm glad your came - but hope that you will keep one eye on the magnificent old copy that you described earlier and share what you see with us from time to time.
"He is a very "involving" writer, isn't he?" So many good insights, opinions and good information here. Although Dickens is tossing many names and character sketches at us, I'm optimistic that with all of your help we will have not trouble in future chapters. Not only is he painting the characters, he's tossing out bits of clues related to the plot - the mystery that will eventually unfold. Too early for the romance and mystery, Laura - but we'll be watching for it. I'm waiting for the "spontaneous combustion" to take place - remember that from the Preface?
"the glittering frivolity of Lady Dedlock"- PatH
- Though the house in town comes alive in season - "a fairyland,but a desert to live in." But right now this lady seems bored out of her mind. Why doesn't she just pack up and go to Paris? Why wait? I guess she's needed in London - for the plot.
So the lawyer comes with papers regarding the Jarndyce case - Sir Leicester is not really interested - because it's his wife's property that is in question - this property is the only thing that she brought to the marriage. So there's a connection between her property and the Jarndyce case? She recognizes the handwriting on one of the original documents Mr. Tulkinghorn is thumbing through. I have an idea, a guess, about whose handwriting it is - I'm wondering if you do. At any rate - we leave the Lady in a faint - but at least longer bored.
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Suddenly, with a turn of the page, Dickens hands the microphone over to little Esther Summerson, as Pedln describes it. I read somewhere that she is the only female narrator in all of Dickens' works. Do you think it was effective? How could he have done otherwise, I wonder.
Certainly she wasn't the only orphan. We meet three orphans in the first instalment! Poor little Eshter. I don't see how she could have grown up "normal" after those loveless, lonely early years with her godmother/aunt. Laura writes of Charlotte Bronte's reaction to Dickens' portrayal of Esther - "weak and twaddling."
I can't see how she could have been anything else but weak- and twaddling after her love-deprived formative years.
Rosemary is fed up with her - finds her "too perfect." {That's the same reaction I had to Ada's description.} Now how did Esther manage to morph into this whole different person? Her godmother gives her the horrible story of her mother's shame - and just like that, Esther becomes this wonderful caring person everyone seems to love. How did you understand that?
We learn that her ward is Mr.Jarndyce - who seems to have sponsored her education at the death of her aunt - and now is sending for her to be the companion of his cousin - Do we know yet how Esther is connected to Mr. Jarndyce? Or is that part of the unfolding mystery?
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Q. 5 Esther Summerson 'sympathetic? I think she is the Dickens' ideal of what a young
lady should be. As for the women who 'cared' for her since her birth, I don't think they
gave her any love or support, and certainly no approval. How could she love them?
I believe Dickens saw himself in Mrs. Jellybe. So preoccupied with his writing that he
couldn't possibly have given his family the attention it deserved.
Jonathan
What an interesting viewpoint, JONATHAN. To me, Mrs. Jellyby was Dickens' satire on
the woman too busy outside the home and careless of her family. It has been my observation
that people are capable of being entirely blind to the faults in themselves that they
condemn in others.
Early days yet, LAURA. We've hardly started and you're in for a real treat! Romance and
melodrama, coming up.
BOOKAD, that quote also reveals how little Sir Leicester actually knew about the matter.
"...a something, devised in conjunction with a variety of other somethings.." Really? Most
helpful.
ROSEMARY, sent by registered mail, I don't doubt, to assure no-one could claim they
never got the notice. ;)
but no longer bored. JOANP
;D
I think the odd old lady's words certainly set the stage for this story. “Youth. And hope. And beauty. And Chancery. And Conversation Kenge! Ha! Pray accept my blessing.”
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The first time I read Bleak House I loved Esther, now I wonder and like Rosemary think, is she too perfect, Dickens seems to like meek and docile females, little Dorrit, little Nell and others, to-day I think we like our heroines feistier, not quite so humble.
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Background: British Crime Fiction 1840-1860
Since Bleak House is considered one of the first examples of British Crime Fiction I wondered how that Genre of fiction was faring in the 1850s.
I had always thought of the Brish Crime Writers as Wilkie Collins who wrote years after Dickens.(Woman in White 1868)
British Crime Novels began in the 1840.s with the "Penny Novel" (also known as the Penny Dreadfull).. Fairly simplistic and lurid they greatly appealed to the growing populace of readers (who could read but were not educated).They were serialized in "Lloyds Entertainment Weekly".
The British Government encouraged this type of writing , hoping it would educate the growing number of urban workers in the difference between normal and deviant behavior.
The Crime Novel was basically religous in its outlook since it highlighted a violation of one of the Ten Commandments (lieing, cheating,coveting, murdering etc.).
In 1853 Dickens jumped on this growing genre by including a detective and a crime as part of Bleak House. (The longer the book was, the more money rolled in).
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In 1853 Dickens jumped on this growing genre by including a detective and a crime as part of Bleak House. (The longer the book was, the more money rolled in).
An interesting history, Jude. I haven’t read much Dickens at all, and was wondering about the length of the book and was it padded? Mrs. Jellybe, for instance. A fascinating chapter, but I wonder if we meet her again or if this was an interesting characterization to add to the length of the book. Granted, Chpt. IV teaches us more about the three young people, the compassion shown by the young women and Richard’s ability to laugh at washing his hands in the pie plate.
No doubt Mrs Jellybe would a good example for the didactic Penny Dreadfuls Jude mentioned – how not to tend your children. Chpt IV did not strike me as a cliff-hanger, but I guess by now Dickens’ readers know there will be excitement down the road.
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Esther is surely meant to play a major role in Dickens' scheme of things. Whatever did he have in mind by allowing her to tell her own story. Of course Dickens is always theatrical and allows his characters to reveal themselves in their own words. But with Esther, she herself is allowed to control the narrative.
Isn't her entrance dramatic? After the awesome scene-setting with the fog and the Chancery Court, the reader is suddenly confronted by this abject little twelve-year-old. Without a friend in the world, and bewildered by her identity and worth, overwhelmed by guilt, and hungry for love. (She's already found that her wisdom increases with love.) As it turns out, she is definitely among the better angels of our nature. But how will she ever find her way in this world. She's obviously the victim of a grave injustice.
Her guardian dies and she is sent off to school. She is soon a big hit with everybody. It's her own doing, isn't it? But why, I wonder, did she not only leave her doll behind, but see it through its demise with an actual burial? Another of the sorrowful occasions in Dickens' tale? It did seem sad to me.
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PatH "I foresee I'm going to be doing a lot of going back and looking. There's much to much detail to take it all in the first time around."
I feel the same way. Although my brain does not seem to want to retain and remember a whole lot as I near 60 yrs of age, I swear I find myself having to go back two and three times to refresh myself. Maybe its Dickens' style of writing or his wordiness, but egads I can barely keep up with who is who or is it whom? :-[
Jonathon, I so agree with you as far as the sadness of her burying her doll. I found myself with tears reading this. I grew up in a very lonely, undemonstrative life when it came to showing and giving love from my mother and I truly poured so much love into my favorite doll, so when I read Esther talking to her doll it made me smile with remembering what my doll meant to me. Then when she did not bring her doll along with her I was heartbroken. Funny how some things can trigger such emotions in you at my age. Much like Esther I was drawn to children and caring for them and now have my own in-home day care. Makes you wonder if when you don't seem to get love and affection as a child if you make the choice to be in a situation where you can give it to others to fulfill that emptiness or need of your own. Okay gotta run.
Ciao for now~
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My B&N edition contains an endnote on Dicken’s inspiration for Mrs. Jellyby:
Dicken’s held the original of this character, the philanthropist Caroline Chisholm (1808-1877), in high regard, and he supported her schemes to assist the poor who wished to emigrate. He took a very different view of Chisholm’s own domestic arrangements, however, and was appalled, in particular, by the unkempt condition of her children.
I don’t know if and how we will read more of Mrs. Jellyby in the novel, but I found this endnote useful for understanding why she may have been put in the book --- as a commentary on Caroline Chisholm and her decisions about work and family choices.
Here is a Wikipedia link about Caroline Chisholm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Chisholm
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Chisholm)
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It did seem sad didn't it Jonathan - it reminded me though of a Bible saying that I still haven't caught properly - something about leaving aside the things of a child - when I was a child I thought like a child - something - something - something... and so I saw it as her passage to young adulthood.
Those history links were fabulous Bookad - especially the first one that I have bookmarked for future info - leave it to you to catch a simple statement that said so much. Looks like the old cliche nothing changes - the peasant revolt rings similar to the way of the world today.
I enjoyed your fog story Jude - funny now but I bet you were beside yourself as a young child. It was easy to fit in your shoes in that today when I go back East I feel so hemmed in by all the trees - I really like where I do not have to look up to find a small patch of sky but rather I can see an immense sky -
Good to meet you Laura - I think it is how you view Romantic - for some it means a love interest for others it is an era that defined literature, music, the arts of the late 18th and early 19th century - to others it is anything that shows the goodness of humanity coupled with a love of nature that is used as a metaphor to human activity. What a busy plant of many leaves, stems and flowers to describe the characters in Bleak House ;) :D
Whoops another post while I was writing away - glad you found that about Caroline Chisholm -
Which does lead me to see the belief in the goodness of humanity that I see as basic to Dickens. I love the quote you brought to our attention Babi - and further I loved that entire bit - I see it as part of characteristic of Dickens himself.
He is a gentleman of strict conscience, disdainful of all littleness and meanness and ready on the shortest notice to die any death you may please to mention rather than give occasion for the least impeachment of his integrity. He is an honourable, obstinate, truthful, high-spirited, intensely prejudiced, perfectly unreasonable man.
It is the first part - a man disdainful of all littleness and meanness with integrity that caught my eye - Another novelist of the time Thackeray, he and Dickens were best friends till a falling out that lasted 20 years and then towards the end of his life Dickens and Thackeray became again good friends. I read Thackeray with dismay - so different than Dickens he is in today's standards brutal describing the Irish, Jews, Blacks and anyone from a culture other than WASP. Amazing since he was born in India living a genteel childhood with his English parents that you would think he did not have to put others in their place as the expression goes...
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Comparing the two - how they describe - first the tears and goodbys that Miss Summerson experiences two times in her life where as in Vanity Fair in the first chapter - http://www.bartleby.com/305/1.html - both goodby experiences are shown with two different young women leaving the school - Thackeray has no patience for teary goodbys but more -- quotes are from Thackeray followed by, quotes from Dickens describing folks of similar biological heritage.
A black servant, who reposed on the box beside the fat coachman, uncurled his bandy legs as soon as the equipage drew up opposite Miss Pinkerton’s shining brass plate,.. “Sambo, the black servant, has just rung the bell; and the coachman has a new red waistcoat.”
...as for Miss Swartz, the rich woolly-haired mulatto from St. Kitt’s,
“Never mind the postage, but write every day, you dear darling,” said the impetuous and woolly-headed, but generous and affectionate Miss Swartz;
(Ok this part does illuminate the story but shows the defference to Miss Sedley by Sambo's attention where as Becky gets a grin from Sambo) The flowers, and the presents, and the trunks, and bonnet-boxes of Miss Sedley having been arranged by Mr. Sambo in the carriage, together with a very small and weather-beaten old cow’s-skin trunk with Miss Sharp’s card neatly nailed upon it, which was delivered by Sambo with a grin, and packed by the coachman with a corresponding sneer.
Sambo of the bandy legs slammed the carriage door on his young weeping mistress.
Dickens discribes disdainful of all littleness and meanness in his American Notes.
A buxom fat mulatto woman, with sparkling eyes, whose head is daintily ornamented with a handkerchief of many colours.
The corpulent black fiddler, and his friend who plays the tambourine, stamp upon the boarding of the small raised orchestra in which they sit, and play a lively measure. Five or six couple come upon the floor, marshalled by a lively young negro, who is the wit of the assembly, and the greatest dancer known. He never leaves off making queer faces, and is the delight of all the rest, who grin from ear to ear incessantly. Among the dancers are two young mulatto girls, with large, black, drooping eyes, and head-gear after the fashion of the hostess, who are as shy, or feign to be, as though they never danced before, and so look down before the visitors, that their partners can see nothing but the long fringed lashes.
Dickens is not a saint, free from all prejudice - not by a long shot - example he sees nothing to admire in the American Indian - however, again he describes what he sees, dirt and all but does not caricature with derogation.
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Laura, thanks for the interesting information about Caroline Chisholm. It's interesting to note how Dickens changes her. Chisholm's work was important and worthwhile, and Dickens admired it. Mrs. Jellyby's projects are obviously silly and impractical, and it's implied that she doesn't last with any one cause. Chisholm's husband did important work, while Mr. Jellyby doesn't seem to do much of anything.
I haven't read ahead, but I bet we haven't seen the last of Mrs. Jellyby. She's much too good a character to have only one chapter.
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Oh,yes, PEDLN. Dickens is very good at giving hints of things to come, to keep his
readers alert and eager. I would have been waiting impatiently for the next installment,
too.
But why, I wonder, did she not only leave her doll behind, but see it through its
demise with an actual burial?
An interesting question, JONATHAN. I hadn't paid much attention to that. Perhaps, with
the recent death and burial of the woman who raised her, she was simply acting out that
event in the way a child does. Or, perhaps, she simply thought of her childhood as over
now, and 'buried' childish things?
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Did you notice that Esther left her doll behind, but took her bird with her? Dickens was quite the bird fancier. He had a pet raven name of Grip with him as he wrote. Birds are features in many of his stories. Birds differ from dolls. Birds talk back. Don't be surprised if we run into more of them in Bleak House.
"perhaps, she simply thought of her childhood as over now, and 'buried' childish things?"
Babi, the death of her godmother, the revelation that the godmother was more than that - was her aunt - was a life-changing revelation to this motherless, unloved child. None of the teary goodbyes you talk about, Barb - but a flood of tears when she leaves her next home heading for Bleak House. She seems to have left the only home she ever knew with the determination that she was going to make people love her starting with little children. She would mother them in a way she had never been cared for. This seems to have become a way of life for her. Perhaps it is the reason she is summoned to Bleak House to become a caring companion for Ada Clare.
Bellamarie, if you are having trouble keeping these names straight, you might want to consider printing out Babi's listing of characters from the link in the heading - and keep it tucked in your book as you read...It really helps. Your story sounds very much like Esther's. Once you and she stopped pouring all of your love the beloved dolls, you directed it to the children you were caring for. Do you think the motivating reason for this was to gain the love and affection of those children?
I couldn't help but notice that these "orphans" are all well-educated, well brought-up, compared to other children in the tale - the young Jellyby's. PatH - I don't think we've heard the end of Mrs. Jellyby either - at least not of Caroline, Caddy Jellyby, not if Esther has anything to say about it.
Those of our readers, and Charlotte Bronte, who found young Esther as weak and twaddling - may find a different Esther as she finds her voice in adulthood. Do you see any "feisty" girls at all in this tale?
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I feel like laughing in agreement, but I feel I should point out that Mrs. Jellyby was working on a very worthwhile project. To open opportunities for her fellow countrymen to migrate and grow coffee beans in Africa.
Dickens, on the other hand, despite his efforts to make England a kinder, gentler place, seems like a busybody snooping into Mrs. Jellybe's private life. Very unfair. Holding women back he was. Two hundred years later it still hadn't changed. Margaret Thatcher setting out on her political career was constantly heckled with, won't you be neglecting your children if you run for parliament? Still, Dickens deserves to be listed in the Calendar of Saints.
I can't get over it. Sir Leicester feels that Chancery is a bastion of English life. The acme of British political wisdom. And what motivates him? Fear. Maintaining the status quo. Imagine. After 500 years the memory of Wat Tyler and his revolting peasants still sends shivers down aristocratic spines!
Putting childish things away. That's a fine scriptural application, Barb. You know, a Texas rancher once told me that a treeless landscape was a real blessing. It made it so easy to spot the stray cattle on the horizon.
Esther is a tough little girl. She does find the strength to get along.
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Thanks so much for the information on Caroline Chisholm, Laura. I've been wondering what Dickens was saying about philanthropists in general - and about Mrs. Jellyby's good works on behalf of the natives of Borrioboola. I see the dilema of which you speak, Jonathan. I've been wondering how the benificient Mr. John Jarndyce could have such high regard for Mrs. Jellyby. Much like Dickens and his questions about Caroline Chisholm, her good works, her child-neglect. Is John Jarndyce aware of Mrs. Jellyby's family situation? Surely we will hear more about her as the story progresses. My bet - he'll come down on the side of the children...
The Introduction speaks to Bleak House's two main themes: "the obsolete legal system and the philanthropy that allows their own children to grow up neglected and their neighbors to die of starvation."
Jude, your posts on Crime fiction remind me of the fact that we're going to have crime, a detective story in Bleak House. Dickens writes at length of "spontaneous combustion" in the Preface. We've been reading of the obsolete legal system, the Jarndyce case has been going on for 20 years. You have to wonder how speedily a murder case will be tried in such a court system. How very interesting this is going to be. Are you wondering who the victim of the crime will be? Jonathan, perhaps the victim will be Sir Leicester...with the wheels of justice turning ever so slowly. :D
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Wow busy Sunday morning - everyone stopped in - I have my Hazelnut coffee in hand - after the awful experience at Christmas when I sent home all my clothes, Christmas gifts and bags of my favorite coffee that arrived on my front porch the day before I returned home and when I got home they were all gone including a package by UPS of an Amazon delivery. Seems shown on TV was a national expose of this goings on in other spots in the nation, folks decided according to the police the very next day to add Austin to the list and my large packages spelled goodies.
Well my daughter just sent me a box with 7 yes, seven bags of coffee - and bless his heart my youngest grandboy sent me a couple of the wonderful soaps similar to those he had given me a clutch of 8 for Christmas. And so it is a big deal for me to say I have a cup of Hazelnut coffee in hand - ;)
I howled laughing outloud the entire 4th chapter - I know - how could I be so heartless - but that is it - to me it was a huge parody - I did not see the story being about the individual trials and tribulations although I did chaff and wonder why was Mr. Jellyby was sitting in the corner not helping as if he had nothing to do with the creation of this passel of kids.
The scene reminded me of these illustrations you often see of everything jumbly crammed into every nook and corner usually, of a hutch but even apartment buildings with folks and cats and plants poking out of every window and kids playing hopscotch on the sidewalk and an old man or lady feeding birds on the stairs, and strung washlines full of underwear -
You just have to laugh at - a, Dish of potatoes being mislaid in the coal skuttle, kettle on his dressing-table, curtain to the window was fastened up with a fork, even choosing Africa to me was the height of humor - Started in the mid 18th century therefore, part of Victorian culture is the expression still used today, " From here to Timbuktu" an African village which conjures up images of remote, isolated and distant parts of this earth. You have to wonder if Mrs. Jellyby would have preferred to escape to Africa - with the far off look in her eyes - she is disconnected from her surroundings - she and Mr. Jellyby could make the kids but neither of them could get their head wrapped around nurturing them.
And so, aside from all the social judgment of where and how a women should be spending her time or the self-appointed experiences of the children that remind you more of The Lord of the Flies or the Old Women in a Shoe I think the real nut of this chapter is in one of the hot topics of the time Existentialism - Mind over Matter.
I think in this chapter Dickens is spoofing the Mind over Matter argument. The spoof is the makeup of the chapter which falls into the typical exaggerated joke - Exaggeration jokes work by first evoking a fairly common, day-to-day image, and then exaggerating one or more aspects of that image to such an extent that the picture in the minds of the audience become ridiculous. To develop a spoof or exaggerated joke, you pick a noun, a person, place or thing and focus on one attribute, exaggerating the attribute associating the person, place or thing with the one exaggerated attribute.
Mrs. Jellyby appears to be more of the mind than the matter of her reality. Idealists were voicing that all things come from the mind where as, materialists, see the dead universe came alive and that matter grew till there was conscious minds. Materialists think matter as primary and mind as secondary.
Here is a nice link with an easy to understand explanation
http://evolutionaryphilosophy.com/2011/06/16/what-comes-first-mind-or-matter/
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"Makes you wonder if when you don't seem to get love and affection as a child if you make the choice to be in a situation where you can give it to others to fulfill that emptiness or need of your own."
That is the choice that you and Esther made, and good for you! It could go another way. I met a sad woman the other day, in her 70s, who was complaining to me (a stranger) that her mother didn't love her, only loved her brother. So when she grew up and married, she told her husband she would only have one child. From the way she talked about this child (now a man) it sounded like she didn't love him either. Apparently, she never learned how to love.
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Loved - and learning to love...That's what it's all about, isn't it? Such a sad story, JoanK. Lucky are those who learned to love the easy way, the natural way. By example. Do you think Mrs. Jellyby loves those children? What would she say if asked? Does every mother love her children? Just because they are her children? THe scenes in the Jellyby home are hilarious, I'll agree, Barb - but painful too, weren't they? - Count me as another who grew up motherless, believing her life would have been different with a mum in the house. Not necessarily so?
By the way, did you know Borrioboola-Gha was a real place? Actual name - Lokoja, the first British settlement - in Nigeria. Chief crop - coffee beans.
There are so many directions in Dickens story is taking - they all seem to lead to Bleak House. I'm really looking forward to the next instalment when we get to step inside. Did you notice Mr. Kenge's comment to the Lord Chancellor as he questioned the Jarndyce wards about their future at Bleak House?
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.
The plot thickens... Are you ready to pick up your copy of Instalment II?
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JoanP
You ask whether every mother loves her children just because they are her children?
I'm sorry to say that in my work as a child therapist I saw countless examples of mothers who did not love their children.
The Prisons and Psychiatric Hospitals are full of the results of this phenomenom.
Thankfully most women do care for their children and even more thanlkfully about 50% of those who are not cared for find their way out of the morass and grow to live a fruitful life.
Working with some of these unloved children was one of the most rewarding experiences of my work life.
The scenes at the Jellyby home were not humorous for me. They were sad.
At least the children had a home. There are parents who don't even provide that.
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Oh dear - I was looking at the story as a story, a piece of art - and yes, art can imitate life and life can imitate art - as to the circumstances - not all of them were hilarious but then not sad either - many of us have come from a life different than those lucky 50% who live in a well run, nurturing home and it is easy to feel we were handed a poor hand, a lot of confusion and pain - but that is why I think the chapter was a spoof - it was too over the top and I think he was showing how he thinks ‘Mind over Matter’ is ridiculous.
The reality of our lives is how we develop - I know my way of seeing life does not make a good story but to me our circumstances make us who we are - to swap our circumstances changes who we are - As a child we seldom realize the benefits of our life and the biggie, we often think our parents are capable of more. More love, more nurturing, more capability to handle life, and more of the things that as children we do not realize cost money or emotional capitol that isn't there.
To live with a Mom who goes into noo noo nah nah land with a distance gaze, finding baby bottles in the mailbox books with a cup of tea in the ice box, sitting mute on the side of the bed for days I understand and so I am not being cavalier - since I was the oldest my way was very early on, pre-school, to help care for the rest of them and at times, for my Mom all the while having other things happen - The part of the story that does not ring true for me is, as a child, coping leaves little room for happy or unhappy - it was what it was - the neighbor children were all in the same fix with no TV to compare and imagine another way of living.
Yes, I am grateful that I could be pragmatic since many are filled with despair, anger, were in greater poverty or homeless and they were not fortunate to meet someone along the way to guide them out. Yes, I have seen what poverty can do to a child, a family and to a woman.
Mrs. Jellyby, appears to me as someone who did not want to give up - she wanted to be more than a caretaker for her children - there was no one to show her how to use her mind while caring for her children and home – being poor does not mean you give up your mental capacity. I can remember long discussions about philosophy and dreams not realized and great embarrassment if someone stopped in for a visit but it never changed - and yes, a social worker came wanting to remove my sister just younger and I but, different than Miss Jellyby, we sat on our hands and lied through our teeth - I cannot help think if Mrs. Jellyby were a man would we be holding her up to the same light.
We really do not know if Mrs. Jellyby was by-polar or dyslexic – either could easily explain her inability to keep an orderly house. We do not know why Priscilla is her choice of household help when she drinks - we do not even know if Mr. Jellyby works and if so, what is his position or craft.
A daughter can wish for a school to learn the things she hears about - mine was an all girls boarding school where classes were taught in French and tea was served each afternoon and the grandfather of my friend across the street was the caretaker - however, because of reality we learn different skills and we either celebrate that or feel cheated.
Dickens wrote his characters appalled at the circumstances - Miss Jellyby wishing for a different life - Esther taking care of Miss Jellyby and her feelings while guarding the sleep of Ada. This is where I think most of us see that ‘matter’ - the body - is needy and without those needs met it is difficult for the 'Mind' to be given its full sway and so, we are filled with compassion for Miss Jellyby and Esther.
Looking at the characters as if they were real we can ask how many young women in the same economic circumstances had the opportunity to develop a skill at writing well enough that someday she could hire herself out as a secretary plus, she lived at home not in a workhouse. Hopefully, if she were a real person in time she would celebrate her reality that is making her who she is.
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JONATHAN, I believe you are right about Dickens attitude towards women, but I'm not
at all sure Mrs. Jellyby's 'mission' was worthwhile. I have the strong impression she
knows next to nothing about Africa and what is needed to set up a successful coffee
plantation. It seems to me this is a big ego trip for the lady, giving her a sense of
importance.
JOANP, I don't doubt before we are done we will note several characters that seem to
be prime candidates for murder. Dickens books always seem to have a splendid mixture of
the noble, the gentle, the down-to-earth, and the detestable.
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I can't help feeling that the crime will turn out to be arson. In the preface the author talks about Spontaneous Combustion. At the end of Chapter 1 we read:
If all the injustice it has committed, and all the misery it (Chancery Court) has caused, could only be locked up with it, and the whole burnt away in a great funeral pyre - why so much the better....
I believe the Chancery Court was set up for civil litigation, and criminal cases were tried in...what...Court of Queens Bench, where court procedures weren't quite as conducive to imaginative lawyering.
Barb, I'm full of admiration at what you got out of the Jellybe scene. That's milking it for all it was worth. By doing so you're really getting at the genius of Dickens. His misery often comes with a dollop of mirth. I'm wondering about Dickens' frustration at not getting a word out of Mr Jellybe. That's extremely uncharacteristic of Dickens' people. Perhaps Mr Jellybe turns out to be an arsonist. His wife is certainly an authentic alpha-phenom.
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I'm not
at all sure Mrs. Jellyby's 'mission' was worthwhile. I have the strong impression she
knows next to nothing about Africa and what is needed to set up a successful coffee
plantation. It seems to me this is a big ego trip for the lady, giving her a sense of
importance.
EXACTLY! She doesn't sound very sensible on the subject, and has no lasting interest in it. Mr. Kenge, describing her to the wards, says "She has devoted herself to an extensive variety of public subjects, at various times, and is at present (until something else attracts her) devoted to the subject of Africa; with a view to the general cultivation of the coffee berry--and the natives..."
Notice that "and the natives". Dickens is good at the tiny understated dig as well as the broad brush.
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Arson hmmm we shall see what we shall see.
Babi I love it, you are so good at summing up the color of a writer - Dickens books always seem to have a splendid mixture of the noble, the gentle, the down-to-earth, and the detestable.
PatH looks like you picked up on how scattered is the mind of Mrs. Jellyby.
Looks like we are starting the next installment - in life I guess it would be like picking up the newspaper from the corner tobacco store or maybe if the town were large enough there would be boys hawking the paper.
First thing needing reference is the sixth seal - Because of the time in history I am thinking the St. James version of the Bible is probably the best to use don't you think...
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
OK that is a lot of dark prediction.
So any of you remember the rag man - ours came by in horse and wagon - no longer collecting bones but rags and paper. During the war when we were all saving balls of tin foil and paper etc. he no longer rode through our streets calling out rags...
Wow what a description - His throat, chin, and eyebrows were so frosted with white hairs and so gnarled
with veins and puckered skin that he looked from his breast upward like some old root in a fall of snow.
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"Curiouser and curiouser"; yes, we're starting the next section today, and we have a fine collection of new scenes and new characters. Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving us any answers yet. We can have a lot of fun speculating, but anyone who has finished the book is going to have more and more trouble not giving anything away. There are new questions for those who want them.
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Yes, I can't help wondering. I'm sure the old lady and the rag-picker will show up later, probably when we have forgotten all about them -- thank goodness fot the list of characters.
Krook reminds me of the TV program "Hoarders", real life stories of people who accumulate things until their houses and lives become unworkable. I watch it every Monday night, and then madly go through things and throw things out. Krook is clearly one of those -- notice he buys all these things and never sells anything. Dickens had an eagle eye for all human foibles.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illchancellor.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illchancellor.jpg)
Lord Chancellor Copies
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
II
III |
DATE of PUBLICATION
April 1852
May 1852 |
CHAPTERS
5-7
8-10 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Feb.20-24
Feb.25-29 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illcoavinses.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illcoavinses.jpg)
Coavinses
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter V
1. Is the little old lady actually involved in a court case? Do you think she will play an important role in the story?
2. On hearing Richard’s name, Krook counts off names on his fingers: Carstone, Barbary, Clare, Dedlock. Who are these?
3. Ada is sad that everyone involved in the suit should be enemies. “It seems very strange, as there must be right somewhere, that an honest judge in real earnest has not been able to find out through all these years where it is.” Do you think we will find out where it is?
Chapter VI
4. What is your impression of Bleak House? Is it actually bleak?
5. Skimpole has an unusual, carefree, parasitic, approach to life. How does he manage to get away with it? Do you approve?
6. John Jarndyce seems to like to help protégés. How many have you spotted so far?
7. Why do you think he has been helping Esther all these years?
Chapter VII
8. Is it just a coincidence that Guppy, a clerk at Kenge and Carboy, visits the Dedlock’s country home? He feels he recognizes Lady Dedlock’s portrait. What do you think is the significance of this?
9. Do you know the history of Charles I (the historical background behind the story of the ghost)? |
Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I find Skimpole really annoying - one of those people who pretends he can't do things just so that other people bale him out all the time. Didn't we read somewhere that he was based on Leigh Hunt?
Rosemary
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I often recognize Dickens' characters -- I feel that I know Skimpole only too well. Not his joy of life, unfortunately, but his feeling that he's doing people a favor to let them support him.
Many writers and artists are like this: Van Gogh, James Joyce, Oscar Wilde come to mind. They left a trail of people who went broke supporting them behind them. They were at least able to finish their works leaving us also with something worthwhile, unlike Skimpole. My husband's family have some such (without the artistic ability, unfortunately).
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JoanK
I'm so happy to hear that someonr else besides me watches Hoarders.
The words Krook uses are identical to the words that the hoarders on TV use!
Today we know that most of the hoarders suffer from Obsessive-Compulsive disorder, They can get help. In Dickens' day it was just "his character" or "peculiarity".
We too had a Rag,and Bottle man come around our neighborhood with the thinnest Nag I've ever seen. Always wondered how he had the strength to pull the cart.
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On your questions, PAT, is Bleak House actually bleak? No, it doesn't seem at all so.
It does make me wonder how it came to have that name. Perhaps it was originally built
by someone of that name.
John Jarndyce seems to be an exceptionally fine man, kind and generous. To a fault,
perhaps? It would appear that he sometimes supports people without knowing a great deal
about them.
JONATHAN, what I recalled about the 'spontaneous combustion' was the repeated reference
to a greasy yellow substance. Guppy and Weevle comment on it, and cannot discover where
it is coming from. I can't believe that detail is irrelevant and suspect that poor Mr.
Krook was liberally coated with it and got too close to the fire.
Since it seems Dickens father spent some time if jail for debt, and was described as 'irresponsible, I assumed Skimpole was based to some degree on him. In the father's defense, tho', I would add that after he was freed, he was responsible enough to insist his son
be able to finish his education, even though his mother wanted the boy to keep his job. If that
doesn't sound very motherly, I can only assume that she had little trust in her husband's provision.
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I find Skimpole really annoying - one of those people who pretends he can't do things just so that other people bale him out all the time. Didn't we read somewhere that he was based on Leigh Hunt?
Rosemary
I hadn't read it before, Rosemary, but you're right. Apparently it's a pretty accurate picture of Hunt, except that Hunt did have literary ability. Why do others go along with people like this? is it their charm? Are they skilled in manipulating others?
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With this section of reading, I feel like I am settled into the book. This section was very character driven --- and there were some characters!
I do not approve of Mr. Skimpole’s freeloading. However, he gets away with it because people support and enable him. I wonder why?
Mr. Krook is more than odd. His name doesn’t seem to fit with who he is --- he is a hoarder, not a crook, as far as we know now.
I am interested to see how this ghost story will fit in. I recall that people of this time enjoyed ghost stories.
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They certainly did, Laura, and since the ghost is supposed to show up before family disasters, I'm sure she'll appear at some important time. I wonder if there is a disaster coming now or if we are just being introduced at this point.
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I have Krook rhyming with spook. I think you're right, Laura. Krook is not a crook. He buys his stuff. What a scene in his little shop. But look sharp. It's full of evidence, no doubt, that Dickens will use later. Krook has more for the record than the court across the way.
Babi, you didn't mention that he exhales smoke, 'as if he were on fire within', according to Esther. Perhaps he turns into a torch.
After five chapters and still no name for the sweet little old lady. But we're given some clues. Enough to call her the Birdlady of Chancery Lane? Spends all of her days in court, with every day expected as the Day of Judgement! Looking for omens. Studying the Book of Revelations. I assumed that she also is a suitor, but now I'm not so sure. Perhaps she has just made a life of it. I wonder who she was in real life. Dickens does not deal in imaginary characters. They're all true to life. Dickens went on to secure a public pension for the impecunious Leigh Hunt. His father he set up in a little cottage far out in the country. He did many good works. Almost as many as Mrs. Jellybe.
Mrs. Jellybe sounds authentic to me. It was the likes of her that made the Empire great. Her times were the glory days of British Imperial might.
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Jonathan
Isn't the name of the little old lady, Miss Flite?
She is listed in the table of characters as "a suitor in chancery, roomer of Mr. Krook."
She appears at the bottom of page two.
What would I do without my character list?
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Jude and Jonathan
I'm confused. I don't see the name Miss Flite in my book in Chapter 1 on pages 1, 2, or 3. Can you give us the whole sentence? Surely there are not multiple "translations?"
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Laura, I'm still calling her the "little old lady" - not only is she not introduced by name in the first instalment - I found it surprising that names were not exchanged on that morning walk when they took the tour through the Krook establishment and the sweet lady's humble home. "little old lady introduces herself as a "suitor" as Jude says - but I don't find her name yet in the second instalment - does anyone?
I like the name though- this woman keeps the birds in cages - until the case is settled, after which she says she'll set them free, give them their freedom to fly away. Miss Flite indeed.
She seems to think the three wards, Beauty {Ada?}, Truth {Esther?} and Hope {Richard?} are omens and that the outcome is imminent. Do you see her hinting that the judgement will come at her own demise. I don't know why I get that feeling - will look back now at some of the things she said.
Just noticed the names in the heading, the names Mr. Krook ticks off - Carstone, Barbary, Clare, Dedlock. Interesting, isn't it? The Jarndyce ward and cousin, Richard Carstone, the Barbary "niece" - Esther, the Jarndyce, ward and cousin, Ada Clare...Things are coming together, aren't they? I can see the connections among the first three names, but what do the Dedlocks have to do with the Jarndyce case? Is this part of the mystery?
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Laura I believe her name is given later in the story - it is a bit hard to keep to the chapters when some of us have either seen the PBS series of this book or we had read the book in the past - she was also the character I chose to come as to our Dickens party and her name was given when we summed up our various characters.
I wonder if some of the crayon drawings on the walls of Mr. Jarndyce's house were drawn by Mr. Skimpole. His character must have been a popular caricutature during this time in history - he is so like Ethelbert "Bertie" Stanhope in the Barchester Towers by Trollope -
Bertie an idling, carefree man who never settles down in anything he does, and who spends far more than he is able to earn himself. Under his older sister Charlotte's advice he is asked to woo the beautiful widow Eleanor Bold who has a young child and was left quite comfortable with both her husband's inheritance and the inheritance she received from her late mother the wife of Mr Septimus Harding the the meek, kind, elderly precentor of Barchester and former Warden of Hiram's Hospital. The characters Mr. Jarndyce and Septimus also have a lot in common.
In earlier times Mr. Skimpole would be a ward of the King's Court as most artists and court musicians or, at the least, the court Jester. I am thinking he is to Mr. Jarndyce what Paris Hilton is to us today - looks attractive and makes everyone around her think they are glamorous. Inconsequential but fun... certainly the very opposite Miss Summerson, now keeper of the keys.
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When I came back, Mr. Skimpole kissed my hand and seemed quite touched. Not on his own account (I was again aware of that perplexing and extraordinary contradiction), but on ours, as if personal considerations were impossible with him and the contemplation of our happiness alone affected him. Richard, begging me, for the greater grace of the transaction, as he said, to settle with Coavinses (as Mr. Skimpole now jocularly called him), I counted out the money and received the necessary acknowledgment. This, too, delighted Mr. Skimpole.
Wow I am impressed - the observation of life that Dickens included - regardless that Skimpole acted sleazy this is an interesting observation - when we do something for another it allows us to feel good or at least satisfied with ourselves that we have acted in the good where as, the inference if we didn't help we would be closed off from our feelings or, we would have a mental scale of who we think deserves our blessings - interesting further is that Skimpole tapped into the shame button of these characters. They were both feeling in cahoots as if keeping the event from the ears of others and protecting their mentor, Mr. Jarndyce from embarrassment if Skimpole left the house to go to jail. They both assumed responsibility for more than the debt but they interpreted others feelings based on their own and then proceeded to act to protect those interpreted feelings. Interesting...!
It was so easy to see the dynamics in print where as in real life how often we are hoodwinked by our own feelings that we must protect and end up being taken advantage of. Well we know now Mr. Skimpole is more than a court jester gifted in the arts.
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Of the varieties the China Orange the most juicy is now grown in the South of Europe; while the St. Michael Orange (a descendant of the China, first produced in Syria), is abundant in the Azores. Varieties of blood oranges include the Egyptian, Maltese, Ruby and St. Michael. Blood oranges are widely grown in the Mediterranean regions, Italy and in Pakistan. Dickens uses St. Micheal's Oranges the opposite of squeezing blood out of a potato
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Laura
Sorry I wasn't crystal clear.
When I alluded to page 2, I meant page 2 of the character list.Miss flite is immediately under Mr. Krook.
I printed the list out and it helps no end in keeping track of all the folk we are dealing with and will yet deal with in the future.
I also use it to note special happenings to these characters and as my notations grow so does my familiarity with thei HUGE cast of characters.
This book seems rather like a garden that has been overplanted and the various flower beds are intruding on one another.
How did the author keep track of this huge crowd?
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Jude, it makes you wonder how long it took D. to write this book, doesn't it? He must have had an overall idea, a master plan before beginniing to write the twenty installments. He couldn't possibly have made it up as he went along. And to think he wrote it with his 10 children underfoot...
Here are the publication dates of the 20 installments when Bleak House first appeared -
March '52 - Sept.53.
Instalment Date of publication Chapters
I March 1852 1–4
II April 1852 5–7
III May 1852 8–10
IV June 1852 11–13
V July 1852 14–16
VI August 1852 17–19
VII September 1852 20–22
VIII October 1852 23–25
IX November 1852 26–29
X December 1852 30–32
XI January 1853 33–35
XII February 1853 36–38
XIII March 1853 39–42
XIV April 1853 43–46
XV May 1853 47–49
XVI June 1853 50–53
XVII July 1853 54–56
XVIII August 1853 57–59
XIX–XX September 1853 60–67
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Oops...I just went a'searching for more information on Dickens' method - found an article which gave away something I wish I didn't know. Hopefully my bad memory will blot out what I read as we go on. I'm not going to give you the source of the following information because I don't want to spoil things for you. I thought this was interesting ...
"A common method of publishing novels in Victorian England was serialization in monthly magazines. Dickens published Bleak House in monthly installments in his own highly successful magazine Household Words between March 1852 and September 1853. Serialization affected Bleak House in various ways.
First, serialization meant that Dickens wrote as he went along. He did not outline the entire novel or even plan very far ahead — in fact, he was often so busy that he could barely meet the printer's monthly deadline for receiving the manuscript of the forthcoming installment. With some of Dickens' novels, this haste and extemporaneity resulted in some loose plot construction and in patches of writing that lacked polish. In Bleak House, Dickens managed to avoid these pitfalls of the serial method. The plot, though complicated, is tightly woven, and the prose style is consistently effective.
Serialization may even have worked to Dickens' advantage, in this case at least. The magazine readers had a whole month to let their memory of the previous installment grow dim. The best way around this difficulty was for the writer to create really memorable scenes and characters. Thus, serialization may have prodded Dickens to offer striking material and suspenseful narration. It may have encouraged his already well developed taste for caricature — highly simplified but striking character portrayal — and for grotesquerie: Both are inherently attention-getting, arresting. Unusual prose style itself is one way of producing a vivid impression. In Bleak House, inventive wording, dynamic sentences, sustained, energetic irony, and present-tense narration contribute enormously to keeping the reader's interest."
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Ah they must have uploaded sometime today - this is a great round table on the Charlie Rose show for Dickens 200th birthday - starts with a trip to the Morgan Library and then goes into a wonderful lively discussion about Dickens with
Simon Callow, author of ‘Charles Dickens and the Great Theatre of the World’;
Jill Lepore of Harvard University;
John Romano Screenwriter;
Robert Douglas-Fairhurst of Oxford University;
Declan Kiely of the Morgan Library;
Salman Rushdie author.
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12166
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What a delightful thought, BARB. Court jester would be a perfect, and useful, role
for Mr. Skimpole. Or, maybe not. I believe most royal courts are far more cynical than
our dear Mr. Jarndyce. :-\
JUDE, I am frequently awed that Dickens not only kept track of all his characters, he
also wove in many intricate details, small hints, allegories...and kept track of all
that as well!
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LOL! Thank you Jude, Joan, and Barbara for clarification on the name, or lack thereof, of the old lady.
Speaking of names, the name Bleak House doesn’t seem to fit too well with the actual structure. It is an expansive house, but seems warm and welcoming. I did note this passage:
Or you might, if you came out at another door (every room had at least two doors), go straight down to the hall again by half-a-dozen steps and a low archway, wondering how you got back there, or had ever got out of it.
It seems like there are lots of means of escape with two doors in every room, lots of places to hide, and many places to become lost. I’m not sure how the house will figure into the plot, but am eager to find out.
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Laura, for me this novel is an exercise in patience. Dickens only reveals what he wants to - in small doses. So far, all we know is the house is called Bleak House - and that "it is a dreary name - but not a dreary place at present, my lord." If it was dreary once, that indicates that someone named it "bleak" for that reason. Imagine waiting a month between instalments for answers to such questions...
I agree with you, the house will figure in the plot - maybe the leading character...
Thanks for the link to the panel discussion on Dickens at 200 at the Morgan Library, Barbara. I listened to the whole thing to the end and glad I did. Babi just commented that she was "awed that Dickens not only kept track of all his characters, he
also wove in many intricate details, small hints, allegories...and kept track of all that as well!"
I was heartened at Salmon Rusdie's final comments on the seriel method of publication employed by Dickens - he was speaking in general about Dickens novels, mentioned how obsessive he was about loose ends; said he will tell what happens to every character at the end, no matter how minor - even their pets! That gives me hope the same will be true of the many characters in Bleak House. He must have had a huge board, maybe a chalk board, or something similar - on which he kept track of the characters, don't you think?
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I've known Skimpoles - charming ones. Once I worked with one - must amusing, entertaining, the life of all of our social gatherings. When he got fired, we were all so sad and somehow pressure was applied to the higher ups and our Skimpole promised to do better - and to our surprise and delight, they re-hired him! Why? Because he was so lovable. That's the only reason I can think of. We all did our jobs better because he made us all happy...
Why does Jarndyce keep Skimpole around - feed him, pay his debts? Another mystery. Is it another example of his philanthropy? Actually, Coavinces doesn't seem like such a dreadful place, does it? I've a footnote that describes it -
"a so-called lock-up house, named after its proprietor, which combined features of a jail and a hotel. In such establisments debtors were detained until someone paid for their release or until they were transferred to a debtors' prison."
Maybe he would have learned something from being locked up for a while. What is the repeated excuse that this man is really only a child? Are we supposed to believe that he is retarded in some way?
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Oh my while I was writing away you posted Joan - I think Mr. Jarndyce gets as much fun from having Mr. Skimpole living with him to buck up a jolly as y'all felt at your work plus in the days before radio Skimpole could fill the house with music.
Yes Laura, it reminded me of a place I stayed at years ago in Rye - I thought it was the Smuggler's Inn but maybe not - I do remember though this warren of rooms with short flights of very old wooden stairs going every which way, some only one or two steps at the entry to a door that led to a small room.
Have you noticed there appears to be a pattern in these early chapters describing a confusing, disorganized, clutter all jumbled crying for order - the streets they travel in London have dogs, horses, Foot passengers, jostling one another's umbrellas in a general infection of ill temper, crust upon crust of mud, nearby barges, skippers with pipes in their mouths, ancient Greenwich pensioners, wheezing by the firesides of their wards And then among wasted candles is the registrar's red table and the silk gowns, with bills, cross-bills, answers, rejoinders, injunctions, affidavits, issues, references to masters, masters' reports, mountains of costly nonsense,
At Lincolnshire we have both a trail of rooms in the office of Mr. Tulkinghorn and the attentions to Mrs. Deadlock - as many cast-iron boxes in his office with that name outside as if the present baronet were the coin of the conjuror's trick and were constantly being juggled through the whole set. Across the hall, and up the stairs, and along the passages, and through the rooms, which are very brilliant in the season and very dismal out of it--fairy-land to visit, but a desert to live in-- And then the attentions revolving about Mrs. Deadlock - from her maid to the manager of the Italian Opera, knows her weaknesses, prejudices, follies, haughtinesses, and caprices and lives upon as accurate a calculation and as nice a measure of her moral nature as her dressmaker takes of her physical proportions. Is a new dress, a new custom, a new singer, a new dancer, a new form of jewellery, a new dwarf or giant, a new chapel, a new anything,
In the next chapter everything seems orderly and the word is used, even Esther's living at a series of homes but when she hits London the discombobulation begin. It starts with her reading and not understanding so her response is to straighten her bonnet looking at her reflection in a glass that on the other side she sees a shabby room, dusty tables, and at the piles of writings, and at a bookcase full of the most inexpressive-looking books that ever had anything to say for themselves. Then I went on, thinking, thinking, thinking; and the fire went on, burning, burning, burning; and the candles went on flickering and guttering, and there were no snuffers
Next we have the jumble of everything Jellyby - children literally crying, household items, disconnected events involving nearly everyone who lives and helps in the house, even the clothes are described as a jumble.
Next morning they take a walk leaving Crumbs, dust, and waste-paper...Some pewter pots and a milk-can hung on the area railings; out the open door they met the cook coming out of a public-house - and again they feel confused by the streets that actually end up a circuitous paths leading only a short distances to the next jumble. After meeting Miss Flite again they come upon Krook's with jumble after jumble - the one on bottles alone is, quantities of dirty bottles--blacking bottles, medicine bottles, ginger-beer and soda- water bottles, pickle bottles, wine bottles, ink bottles;
Before we even read the description you shared Laura of the Jarndyce rooms we are treated to another jumble of scenes. Wheels sent the road drift flying about our heads like spray from a water-mill. Presently we lost the light, presently saw it, presently lost it, presently saw it, and turned into an avenue of trees and cantered up towards where it was beaming brightly. It was in a window of what seemed to be an old-fashioned house with three peaks in the roof in front and a circular sweep leading to the porch. A bell was rung as we drew up, and amidst the sound of its deep voice in the still air, and the distant barking of some dogs, and a gush of light from the opened door, and the smoking and steaming of the heated horses, and the quickened beating of our own hearts, we alighted in no inconsiderable confusion.
Even the keys are organized and matched to locks when Esther has them under her care.
The only calm order seems to be surrounding Esther and the Garden in Lincoln Inn when court is not in session - Miss Flite's room and curiously at night - when ever night is described it is with a wonderment and clarity that is the opposite of these daytime scenes.
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I was really thinking Mr. Skimpole was infantile in his behaviour
Esther notes he has 'the appearance of a damaged young man pg 69
maybe with a low I. Q. ...the reasoning why Mr. J was looking after him; but in looking thru my notes I noticed Mr. S. had been educated in the medical profession (same page)--though he didn't remain in it very long
its really hard to believe with all the information about Mr. S. he accomplished something of a profession
...............
After reading 'Tale of Two Cities' in high school 40+ years ago 'it was the best of times, it was the worst of times' etc...reading another Dicken's novel never crossed my mind. But somehow the topic of him came up in one of the last conversations with my father before he passed away; and he told me Charles Dickens was a favourite author of his....
It was my father's words that propelled me into this read, and I am amazed at the dimension of the world and characters in this novel.
I did get a copy of the BBC movie which is in 3 discs; only viewed the first one, so not to spoil the book for myself--so roughly 1/3 thru the book-- wonderful visualization of the foggy ride in the horse drawn carriage ...Mrs Firth's dwelling, the clutter of the landlord, Krook's accommodations....Mrs. Jellyby and her household, Lady Dedlock
Deb
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Oooh thanks, Deb! I forgot that Mr. Skimpole was trained as a doctor. How did he get through med school? Is Dickens commenting on the quality of medical schools - or doctors at the time? As I remember Skimpole had two major problems...one was that he had no concept of time. I've forgotten the other . Do you remember? He must have entertained his patients though...that would be therapeutic, don't you think? :D
Krook is an odd, but interesting character - he seems important to the story. He's familiar with every facet of the Jarndyce case - Has he learned all the names from the law documents he has accumulated? He can't read, am I right? Or perhaps he can't write - It is said he copies from memory - writes letters upside down? They call him "the Lord Chancellor" - why? And what is he copying anything for?
For those who don't have the PHIZ illustrations before you - (it seems there were two in each monthly instalment) - you will find the two in the heading. Notice that they are really too small to make out, but if you can enlarge them if you click on the smaller ones...
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Great recap, Barb. What a great show Dickens puts on. Great theater. And the drama will just increase, no doubt, as we read on. Bleak House sounds like a split level to me. Full of interesting things, including that curious Hindoo chair brought from India nobody knew by whom. The place has a very pleasant atmosphere. And Mr. Jarndyce is at peace with himself. I believe he is the sole remaining Jarndyce. His life is working away at philanthropy.
And that scoundrel Skimpole gives him the opportunity. Trained as a physician. Of course. He has an amazing ability to make people feel better about themselves. Playing the child plays right into Dickens' hands as well. Funny, isn't it? The man who has come to arrest him is not taken in by Skimpole's clever talk. So much the worse for him. The question is, are we taken in by Dickens' account of things? Are the Jellybe kids that hard done by? I get the impression that they're having a wonderful time. Living unsupervised is a ball. So what are a few bumps and bruises? Kids will fall down steps and get hung up in railings. The scene was probably put in to allow Esther to show her stuff.
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I expect I've already said this, but Armistead Maupin says he was much influenced by Dickens' way of storytelling when he wrote Tales of The City - and Alexander McCall Smith wrote Scotland Street after a conversation with Maupin at a dinner party in SF - so Dickens' influence has spread to the most unlikely places. I don't think either of those two match Dickens for his huge casts and intricate plotting, but you can see a link.
Rosemary
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Delighted to see first mention of Nemo, in 1948 when I first read Bleak House a group of us giggly girls had our eye on a young man but we could not find out his name so we called him Nemo after the character in Bleak House. It is marvellous to be re-visiting Bleak House and realizing why it is my favourite Dickens. Like Jonathan I think the Jellaby children had a great time no one fussing them and telling them what to do. I am sure there is enough food even if some of it comes out of the coal scuttle. I am convinced there was never an author as clever as Dickens, how he could spend so much time going into details about his characters, and how did his readers keep their patience till the next instalment.
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I haven't had the time to read but a few pages so I can't comment on much of what is going on. However, I am delighted to hear that Dickens used a character name of Nemo much earlier than Verne's Captain Nemo. Nemo in Latin means no one, or nobody. I always thought of Verne's pick of that name as some kind of as a play on word or joke. Also, I just learned that to the Oromo people of Ethiopia, nemo meant The Man. Just love it.
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JoanP--regarding Mr. Skimpole's shortlived medical profession -he worked in the household of a German prince
and his fault he admits is his 'he has always been a mere child in point of weight and measures ....he had never been able to prescribe with the requisite accuracy of detail'
bleak house was once called the 'Peaks' pg 96 and was chanaged to 'bleak house' when the great uncle Tom Jarndyce of the present John Jarndyce felt with the law suite that it was 'the beginning of the end'
& lived in the house 'closed up poring over the legal papers hoping to bring the mess to a conclusion
I am reading 'the oxford illustrated dickens'--Bleak House--unfortunately a library loan, but in the meantime many pages in chapters have headings i.e.
chapter VII--The Ghost Walk pg 81
pg 83-Chesney Wold
pg 85-Mrs. Rouncewell & Her Grandson
pg 87-Company to See the House
pg 89-Portrait of Lady Dedlock
pg 91-The Legend of the Ghost's Walk
and there are so many illustrations; I think I read there are 40 thru the book
just a note to let you know in case you can get your hands on a copy of this edition of the book
Deb
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Deb, thanks so much for the Skimpole reminder - I can see where not being able to prescribe with accuracy would be a problem in the medical profession. So what does he do for a living? He seems to have no problem spending money - running up debts - but where is the income? Does he get an allowance from Jarndyce? Come to think of it, where does Jarndyce's income come from?
I'm reading the same illustrated Oxford edition with the illustrations, Deb. (Also the Norton Critical with footnotes). As we discuss each instalment, we are including the illustrations in the heading with the Instalment under discussion. Notice that you can click the illustrations in the heading to enlarge them if the edition you are reading doesn't have them.
Also you can see the discussion schedule in the heading. We know you are reading ahead of the discussion schedule this week - you almost have to - but we are trying to focus the discussion on one Instalment at a time. This week we are discussing the second instalment - which includes chapters V-VII.
On Saturday, the 25th, we'll begin to focus on the third instalment - chapters VIII- X Those of you who are puzzling over the names "Nemo" and "the Peaks"will find them in the third instalment. Let's wait til then for further comment, okay? We still have more to dissect from second instalment.
Can we hear from the rest of you on the pace for the discussion? Are you way ahead, or is the pace just right for you? We thought five days for discussion of each installment was a good pace, but not sure now...
Rosemary, I was not familiar with Armistead Maupin. Thought he was a British writer - Looked him up and see that he is an American.- http://www.armisteadmaupin.com/Bio.html Have you read Tales of the City? Will definitely check it out.
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Why, JOAN, of course Dickens only revealed what he wanted to..in small doses. How else
do you keep people interested through all those installments? :)
I agree, BARB. Mr. Jarndyce has seen so much of human greed and villainy, it must be a
relief to spend time with someone so apparently childish. Unfortunately, I doubt very
much if Skimpole is all that naive; I think he is found himself a very workable scam.
I love that intriguing little cue to any disturbance to Mr. Jarndyce's peace. The wind is in
the east, and the hair is immediately rumpled.
Personally, JONATHAN, I would find having my hurts, my dirty body, clothes, etc., and
my cries ignored by a mother who can't be bothered to be quite hurtful. As an adult,
now, would you and NANCY think it a good thing to leave your children unsupervised? Sure, it's a
ball, right up to the time you get seriously hurt or killed.
Oh, thanks, BOOKAD. I had missed or forgotten about the earlier name of Bleak House.
Sharp eye for detail, there. The different titles on succeeding pages is unusual, isn't
it? It does make it a bit easier, tho', if you want to go back looking for something.
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Regarding the pace of the discussion...
I like the schedule of five days per installment.
According to the heading, we will start discussion of the next session on Saturday, Feb. 25, correct? Joan said Sunday the 26th, which I think is a bit too long to spend on the current section.
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Five days suits me too, Laura. I misspoke...we'll begin the third instalment on Saturday, the 25th. - I'm going to edit my post right now.
Do you feel it would be helpful to start a list of unsolved mysteries - we could add to it as we go along - or remove them as Dickens solves them.
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humble apologies everyone
somehow I was reading as if we were to do 5 chapters/5 days
....and struggling to do so I might add
relief...whew!! to know I don't have to keep up that pace
I've never taken directions very well...hope I didn't spoil anything for you
will slow down
5 days per section is good for me as well
Deb
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I am so grateful for this discussion as I would miss so much if reading it alone on my own.
Mr Jarndyce does seem to be tolerant sort of fellow, doesn’t he, in his relationships – so very of accepting Mr. Skimpole and also Mrs Jellybe, whom most of us would not speak well of. I thought it interesting the way he tried to probe and get to the young persons’ thoughts of Mrs. Jellybe. Apparently Ava (conversation not heard by Esther) did not “bad mouth” her at all, and Esther did try to sugar coat her comments. But Richard bluntly states –“the little Jellybes are in a devil of a state.” They may have been happy without parental supervision, as some of you have stated, but Peepy and Caddie sure lapped up the attentions of Esther. And apparently BOTH of them sought her out for more.
And we have another mystery – was it Mr. Jarndyce who was in the coach with Esther when she was on her way to the Dollys? It appears that he caught Esther's reflection of recognition.
I have not yet reached Chapter VII, but am looking forward to hopefully getting to know more about the Dedlocks.
My printer from “h” would not print out the list of characters (above) as it did for Jude, so I went looking for another, and I think, JoanP, that I ran into a site similar to what you saw, that gave you more info than what you wanted. I don’t remember everything I read, so maybe I won’t remember that.
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I am only up to chapter 9 but I will try to hurry up now that I have my OU assignment in (hooray).
Joan - yes, I have read Armistead Maupin and I absolutely love him, but he's not everyone's cup of tea - as you might expect, he writes from a very gay slant, but I find his depiction of San Francisco in the 1970s (I think that's when it's set) just brilliant, and his books are real page turners for me. Mrs Madrigal (the landlady in Tales, and a pivotal character) was played in the TV series by Olympia Dukakis, and Mary Ann was played by Laura Linney - they both made it unforgettable.
Rosemary
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One of the things I like about Dickens is his throwaway lines--telling little phrases or sentences jus thrown in for fun. Barb, you spotted one I missed: "and at a bookcase full of the most inexpressive-looking books that ever had anything to say for themselves."
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About the scam artist Mr.Skimpole. The two problems he has, as he notes about himself:"No idea of time or money."
However as the little scene where he gets Esther and Richard to pay his debts shows, he has a fine sense of money; other people's money! What a clever crook he is. He has glammed onto Mr. Jarndyce and lives for free. How did he get into debt?
For those who think the Jellyby children are having "fun" I suggest you read a novel called "The Gathering" by Anne
Enright. It won the Man Booker Prize for Literature in 2007. It tells the story of a large family of nine in Ireland where the mother pays no attention to her children and the effect on the children, now grown up, and gathering for the funeral of one of the siblings who committed suicide.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illbrickmakers.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illbrickmakers.jpg)
the visit
to the Brickmaker's
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
III
IV |
DATE of PUBLICATION
May 1852
June 1852 |
CHAPTERS
8-10
11-13 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Feb.25-29
Mar.1-5 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illreguppy.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illreguppy.jpg)
in re Guppy
Extraordinary Proceedings
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter VIII
1. Why is the chapter titled "Covering a Multitude of Sins"
2. In this chapter, Dickens switches from one great house to another (From Chesney Wolds to Bleak House) and from one housekeeper to another (Mrs Roundtree to Esther). What differences and similarities do you see?
3. Do you have a "growlery? Would you like one? What do you do when the wind is from the East? Are you involved in any "wiglomeration"?
4. Why does Esther say "I have nothing to ask you, nothing in the world"? What does that say about Esther, Mr. Jarndice?
Chapter IX
5. Why is this chapter called "Signs and Tokens"? What are the signs?
6. Here Dickens continues his parody of philanthropists. Yet Dickens has been criticized for implying that philanthropy is the answer to the problems of the poor. Can we tell what Dickens' own version of what philanthropy should be from his descriptions of Mrs. Jellyby and Mrs. Pardiggle? How do the two differ? How the same?
7. At the end of the chapter, Esther says she "felt as if an old chord had been more coarsely touched than it ever had been since the days of the dear old doll, long buried in the garden" Why "coarsely touched"? What does she mean?
Chapter X
8. Here we get more new characters, and revisit some. Do you enjoy these characters or is it too much? What is he doing with them?
9. Why do you think Dickens introduces Nemo(no one)?
10. Of all the minor characters in these three chapters, which did you think were the most interesting? Which the least?They are: Mrs Roundtree, Mrs. Paridiggle, the bricklayer, his family, and neighbors, Mr. Boythorn, Mr. Guppy, Mr Snagsby, Mrs. Snagsby, Guster, Nemo (no one), and whoever I forgot
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Yes he does have a sense of money, Jude. I think he is not simple in the sense of stupid, but simple or childish in the sense of having no sense of responsibility or interest in anything practical and lacking a sort of moral sense that tells you what is reasonable.
He has children too--between 6 and 12, and he "has never looked after them"; they have "tumbled up somehow or other".
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Yes PatH, I like that definition the best - childlike in not taking on the responsibilities we think says you are an adult and yet, he does not seem to be a layabout either. He does serve some valuable function.
Whoa Chapter VII - every paragraph builds intrigue and mystery - it is as if we have a Gothic Novel on our hands - Thanks, was it Booked who linked and told us of Tom Watts - using the name added to the description of this darkened house empty of its owners - even Rosa's shy ways is not enough to raise the chapter from a moldy dark gray stage set. My imagination pictured it as if there was black oil dripping like frosting over the entire of Chesney Wold.
I love his dry sense of humor - the pigeons who ... seem to be always consulting- So the mastiff, dozing ... where he sits on end, panting and growling short, and very much wanting something to worry besides himself and his chain.The turkey in the poultry-yard, always troubled with a class-grievance (probably Christmas)-
Then look how within the first few paragraphs he sets up the chapter to expect further mystery and a ghost story - Be this as it may, there is not much fancy otherwise stirring at Chesney Wold. If there be a little at any odd moment, it goes, like a little noise in that old echoing place, a long way and usually leads off to ghosts and mystery.
The images Dickens is using to tell this story are wonderful so that now I am on the prowl - just as Fog has been mentioned have you noticed there is a lot of slipping and sliding usually in mud - even in London the folks walking on the street - everyone seems to be watching where they step as if they are all thinking they are going to go bump, bump, bump, head hitting the stairs on the way down. Down to what - we are still not cued into the mystery - only that the story so far shows mystery.
In chapter VII we have more mystery about Lady Deadlock and yet, I keep thinking of how the only order and calmness in the story surrounds Esther - I wonder if we are seeing bits of the puzzle here and these two are the protagonist because up till now I cannot tell who is the protagonist in this story.
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Thanks for the reminder, Jude. I have The Gathering somewhere in the house. I've been meaning to read it. Of course you're right about the plight of the Jellybe children. The pitiable child shows up so often in Dickens' tales. Sometimes it seems he never really got over his own childhood. He seemed to feel the pain and sorrows of all neglected kids.
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"Since it seems Dickens father spent some time if jail for debt, and was described as 'irresponsible, I assumed Skimpole was based to some degree on him. In the father's defense, tho', I would add that after he was freed, he was responsible enough to insist his son
be able to finish his education"
I've always been interested in spendthrifts, which Dickens' father was, and one surprising characteristic that they all seem to have is that they are very generous. It is part of the unreal way they look at money: it doesn't matter if they give away all they have today, there will always be more tomorrow from somewhere. When tomorrow comes, and there isn't any, it doesn't matter, they can always borrow. When they say they will pay it back, they aren't lying -- they really believe in this fuzazy tomorrow when they will have money.
Dickens is always very aware of how people spend money: we'll get another example next chapter. Money is fascinating to me, too: Money and Time. They would seem to be, in reality, matters of cold hard fact, but psychologically, they are the most obscure.
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Jude I read The Gathering and loved it - what a writer - she is an example of why I am partial to Irish authors. We seem to be so inundated with confessional stories that are based in our desire to as Tillich puts it, "the holiness of "ought to be"" that he associates with the moral element in humanist faith with its progressive and and utopian elements. Standing along side he explains, creating the tensions and struggles within communities is the "holy here and now" consecrating place and reality - the law of "being". In other words what is is...
I am thinking there are many ways to look at that chapter and probably as many ways as there are readers and readers life experiences - I do not think we have to agree - we can learn of other view points and even discover a nuance that we had not thought of - sure a moral loving life is an ideal but so is seeing the positives within reality.
In today's world we want to see children physically nurtured but then we seldom see families of 10 or more children - and very few children have the opportunity any longer to walk safely miles away searching for an Esther as did Peepy and yet, I remember even when I was a child starting in third grade, walking to three separate Parish Churches miles apart with my friends on Good Friday, walking regularly with my sister in the summer at age 8 she being 5 and half to swim at a beach 2 miles from the house.
My best friend Theresa was one of 21 children in a 2 bedroom house, [bunk beds in boys room and girls room] my friend across the street lived next door to her cousins and they all ate on a plank table under a grape arbor so that no adult ever knew how many or what kids were eating. How we observe others and call it neglect is coming from our perception as in the story it came from Richards perception - we can even wonder, since Dickens was having marital problems was this a statement to judge ineffective his wife since together they had 10 children.
My thought is rather than seeing this chapter as a moral issue or a comment on a mother's role [hmm how about a father's role] anyhow, it has to be in the story for a reason - not just to make us blanch - it has to be a metaphor to the story or it would not be there - this is a professional writer who knows his craft and the instances of these first chapters must be part of the overall - not only leading like a trail to the crux of the story but each sentence and incident, chapter is bolstering the crux of this story.
We could read this sorting character as if we were making an early silent film - the white hats and the black hats, or we could read this as if every character is part of the thesis of this story rather than, in themselves if they are good or bad in our eyes - we can decide if this is a morality versus a reality story. Books like The Gathering were not written even in the mid twentieth century - of all the nineteenth century authors Dickens of all people would be conscious of morality and yet, he is the story teller and decided that chapter was making a statement to further the crux of his novel.
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This schedule is perfect for me. There is so much to absorb and keep track of that if I read any quicker; I would probably get frustrated and give up.
I like the idea of a list of unsolved mysteries. The first one for me would be Mr. Jarndyce's connection to all of these characters.
Sally
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Barb
I really thought about what you said and began wondering why Dickens indeed put in the part about the Jellyby children.
Perhaps they will reappear later in the story or perhaps he is indeed reliving some dark days of his own.
Probably I'll never know.
Yes , I too knew , in my childhood, very large families where things went fine when the older children took over the tasks of parenthood.My two best friends Jane and Eugene were members of such a family. All was fine untill their three year old brother caught his head behind the pipe in the bathroom and died. I think the Jellyby story brought the horror of that moment back to me.
Sorry for bothering you all with this.
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Ouch Jude - sorry that is a lot of sadness and 'if only's' to carry around - and yes, we both can swap horror stories - in today's world 7 years of therapy to get past a lot of what happened - so I can appreciate how easily a memory button is triggered - it is difficult for anyone to be sensitive to our history - onward - yes, there must be a reason to the story why that chapter other than life ought to be different or better or whatever would make us feel more comfortable.
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Laura explained a major inspiration for the Jellyby family:
My B&N edition contains an endnote on Dicken’s inspiration for Mrs. Jellyby:
Dicken’s held the original of this character, the philanthropist Caroline Chisholm (1808-1877), in high regard, and he supported her schemes to assist the poor who wished to emigrate. He took a very different view of Chisholm’s own domestic arrangements, however, and was appalled, in particular, by the unkempt condition of her children.
I don’t know if and how we will read more of Mrs. Jellyby in the novel, but I found this endnote useful for understanding why she may have been put in the book --- as a commentary on Caroline Chisholm and her decisions about work and family choices.
Here is a Wikipedia link about Caroline Chisholm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Chisholm
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Chisholm)
It's not a fair likeness--I bet Chisholm's children weren't as extreme, and her work was far from frivolous. Because of it, Chisholm was proposed for Sainthood.
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My mother is the youngest of five children - her family was very poor indeed, and she was largely brought up by her oldest sister. Her own mother was always out working in very menial jobs to try to feed the family. Although I am fairly sure that the workhouse no longer existed by then, my grandmother was terrified of it to her dying day. We worry now about our pensions and the value of our houses, but for them in those days it was just a matter of getting from one day to the next without being evicted. My mother remembers being constantly hungry in her childhood, and always out on the street (with all the other children from the road) because being indoors meant more work for her mother.
My mother has scars on her legs from falling against the 'copper' (wash boiler) as a young child - it as impossible for my grandmother to supervise them all, work, and deal with her feckless husband. I think this is why my mother had so much difficulty in coming to terms with my having more than one child.
I do appreciate, however, that Mrs Jellyby is different - it's not poverty with her.
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Sally, let's do that - start a list of the unsolved mysteries in Bleak House - yours will go first on the list - "What is Mr. Jarndyce's connection to all of these characters? As benevolent a character, as kind, patient and understanding - and generous, I can't help wonder about his motives. I guess I wonder about the motives of all these philanthropists - are they just too good to be true?
How about the rest of you? Questions for the unsolved mystery list?
While on the subject of lists, is there anyone else who is unable to open the link to the list of Characters in the heading? This one - Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html);
I am puzzled why some can open the link and some can't, but we can always post the list here for you to copy so you don't have to go to other sites where so many spoilers are included...
I'm glad to know the pace is working for you. Poor Deb's been trying to read a chapter a day...rather than three chapters every five days. I'm glad that's cleared up now. We would have lost you in the dust, Deb! Keep an eye on the discussion schedule in the heading and you won't get overwhelmed with keeping up - or getting ahead of the rest of us! :D
Tomorrow we will begin to talk about the THIRD Instalment, which included Chapters VIII, IX and X when first published.
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Characters in Charles Dickens' Bleak House by Group
Sir Leicester Dedlock & Lady Honoria Dedlock
Volumnia Dedlock, cousin, a lady of 60.
Mrs. Rouncewell, housekeeper
Mr. Rouncewell, eldest son and ironmaster.
George Rouncewell, son, owner of a shooting gallery
Watt Rouncewell, grandson
Phil Squod, employer by Mr. George
Mademoiselle Hortense, Lady Dedlock's waiting-woman
Right Hon. William Buffey, MP, friend of Sir Leicester
Mr. Tulkinghorn, solicitor of the Court of Chancery and legal advisor to Dedlock
Mercury, footman
John Jarndyce, upright, handsome unmarried man of about 60
Richard Carstone, ward of Jarndyce, and a suitor in chancery.
Ida Clare, ward, and also a suitor in chancery.
Esther Summerson, protege of Mr. Jarndyce, a 'prudent and wise woman'
Lawrence Boythorn, friend of Mr. Jarndyce
Harold Skimpole, permanent resident at Bleak House
Mr. Vholes, Richard Carstone's solicitor.
Mr. Kenge, senior member of Kenge and Carboy, solicitors.
William Guppy, lawyer's clerk employed by Kenge & Carboy.
Tony Jobling (Weevle) law-writer and friend of Guppy.
Mrs. Jellyby, devoted to causes and projects
Mr. Jellyby, fading into the background
Carolyn Jellyby, eldest daughter
Mr. Turveydrop, of celebrated deportment
Prince Turveydrop, his son.
Allen Woodcourt, a young surgeon
Mrs. Woodcourt, his mother
Mr. Bayham Badger, medical practitioner in London
Mrs. Badger, a middle-aged lady with youthful wardrobe
Malta and Quebec Badger, daughters
Mr. Krook, merchant of rags, bottles and marine stores
Miss Flite, a suitor in chancery, roomer of Mr. Krook
Captain Hawden, former military officer, law-writer, also renting from Mr. Krook
Mr. and Mrs. Snagsby, law stationers
Guster, maidservant
Mrs. Pardiggle, a woman of causes, much like Mrs. Jellyby
Mr. Pardiggle, very retiring
Grandfather and Grandmother Smallweed
Bartholomew Smallweed, grandson
Judy Smallweek, granddaughter
Mr. Detective Bucket, detective officer
Mrs. Bucket, his acute wife
Matthew Bagnet, ex-artilleryman and bassoon player
Mrs. Bagnet, his wife
Woolwich Bagnet, his son
The Rev. Mr. Chadband, of no particular denomination
Mrs. Chadband
(Assorted individuals)
Mr. Gridley, of Shropshire, a ruined suitor in Chancery
Jo, (Toughey) a street corner sweeper
Little Swills, comic vocalist
Charlotte Neckett, self-reliant, daughter of a sheriff's officer
Jenny and Liz, brickmaker's wives
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"I do appreciate, however, that Mrs Jellyby is different - it's not poverty with her"
Rosemary - what is it with Mrs. Jellyby? Is there really that much of a difference between her children and those who suffer poverty?
Barbara suggests Dickens may be commenting on the role of the father as well as mothers with the Jellyby family. I keep looking for the men, for the fathers of these children. How do you see Mr. Jellyby? At least he is there, but he doesn't seem to contribute to the well being of his family in any way, does he?
PatH reminds us that Skimpole has a whole brood of children - somewhere, trying to get along without him. It occurred to me that those Jellyby childen were his...that dispassionate Mr. Jellyby wasn't really their father. Jarndyce seemed to bring up the Jellyby children in his presence - more than once. Where are the Skimpole children? Do you think we'll meet them?
Is Dickens writing as much about the role of fathers in this story as about mothers?
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I feel I must stand up for Mr. Jellyby, Miss Jellyby says "As to Pa, he gets what he can, and goes to the office. He never has what you might call a regular breakfast. Poor Mr. Jellyby he obviously worked hard in the office to provide money for food and for all that paper that Mrs. Jellyby used to send letters, I wonder are they hand delivered or sent by post. It is all very well to be critical of him but he was a man of his time and men earned the money and women looked after the home. By the way he cowers in the corner he may be an abused husband, have pity on him! Charles Dickens may be saying "I work hard writing my books am I expected to look after my ten children as well".
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I'm hoping we'll see more of Mr. Jellyby and get a better notion of what he's like.
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Oh dear Joan you may be sorry you asked - this could become a philosophical discussion on what is work - some work hard and get paid others because of gender work hard and do not get paid - regardless if we think Mrs. Jellyby should be working hard at other tasks you have to consider Caddy who works hard and does not get paid -
Many of us have worked in an office and know that some work hard and some do not but if you remember as a kid anyone that worked outside the house was labeled and thought of as a hard worker - considering Day Care Centers today, 10 children would not be the charge of one worker - 8 tops - plus - remember how exhausted we were after having a baby - I remember the work I did to have the house scrubbed down top to bottom with all laundry completed and meals in the freezer so I could have a few weeks to enjoy my third Baby. My other two were ages 5 and 6 with the 6 year old having started school and this was still exhausting but possible - I could not have done all that if I had a 3 or 4 year old who needed my attention.
When you think about it there are as many children who have a similar existence to the Jellyby children with only one or two in the family - I also have a few friends today who I have known and volunteered with on various Boards here in Austin whose homes were always higgly piggly - Volunteering as we did yes, we had help but not the kind that went to the local bar as Mrs. Jellyby's cook or was as incompetent as Priscilla seems to be.
I have one friend in particular whose children seemed almost on their own, the son in and out of trouble never graduated from High School - however, today he has his Doctor of Physics, married with two college attending daughters and his wife has a Masters in Physics, and my friend's Daughter is a very successful Attorney whose clients are mostly in the computer industry - my friend's house is still higgly piggly and she is still working hard at volunteer activities, now for the aged.
We really have no idea the future of Mrs. Jellyby's children anymore than we really know the cause of discombobulated life. Since Mrs. Jellyby cannot keep her hair combed she may be suffering from depression or any number of things - even with depression often folks get wound up in activities that seem off and not handling the current or important situation - Heck she could just to the adult child of an alcoholic - her behavior would match.
Caddy is a very young teen - we all know most kids that age only find fault with their mother and Richard is a man who has no clue what a women is capable of and how having babies wears you out - plus - why is the help so incompetent - is that typical of the help available -
There does not seem to be any other family to help Mrs. Jellyby sort out her help, her home, her children or her appearance and yet, she has a good heart - an enormous heart or else, she would not have 10 children nor, be concerned for humanity - it just appears she would have been better off as the one going to the office - or teaching in a girls school how to write and about other cultures - those are her skills - not caring for children.
Bottom line we have no idea if she never sent out another letter or informed herself of another day in Africa if she could pull the household and her children together so they could attend the kind of school that Caddy dreams for herself. We have no clue the income of Mr. Jellyby if it could afford more - remember Cratchit, he worked hard and they were still poor.
Now if Mrs. Jellyby had money she would have a staff taking care of the children and be off to probably Africa rather than Paris as Lady Deadlock who has no children - I am ready to see what happens in this story - if the Jellyby's come into the picture again or, if other families with children come into the picture - we already know, explained in chapter VII that if you work in a big house and your child is unruly in order to keep your job, like Tom, your child is sent away.
In fact, that could be where Richard is coming from - he may have ideas of what it should be like to live in a home with parents and is measuring Mrs. Jellyby to his fantasy - I must say it is rude of him to accept her hospitality and not chip in plus to find fault - wow.
As to Dickens being disenchanted with someone he uses as a prototype - I am wondering how that fits since the author needs characters with certain characteristics in order to tell the story and so he would be shooting a gift horse in the mouth - for me it is back to the story to see how this all fits.
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Here are a few more mysteries to add to the ongoing list:
What was in the document that Mr. Tulkinghorn was reading, while Mr. Dedlock was dozing, that made Lady Dedlock faint?
What wrong did Esther’s mother do to Esther’s godmother?
Who is the lady who addressed Esther, Ada, and Richard when they were waiting outside, claiming she would “confer estates on both,” the one who lives above Mr. Krook's shop?
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8. Is it just a coincidence that Guppy, a clerk at Kenge and Carboy, visits the Dedlock’s country home? He feels he recognizes Lady Dedlock’s portrait. What do you think is the significance of this?
We have not addressed this question yet. I do not think it is just a coincidence that Guppy visits the Dedlock's country home. After all, he does recognize Lady Dedlock's portrait. Maybe Dickens intended it as a coincidence and wants us to believe it is a coincidence, but he will tie the visit into the story somehow. Then again, maybe it is a red herring. Is that the right time for a clue that seems to be a clue, but is not really?
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More questions - if Krook cannot read than why does he horde documents especially legal documents - who is Nemo - how are Ada, Richard and Esther related other than involved with Jarndyce and Jarndyce - what does spontaneous combustion have to do with the story - where is Mrs. Rouncewell missing oldest son - How does the law office dealing with Jarndyce know Mrs. Jellyby and why do they choose her home as a place for Ada, Richard and Esther to spend the night - why does Mr. Jarndyce give the household keys to Esther within the first day of meeting her - did he not have a housekeeper or is this elevating Esther to be the mistress of his house and if so why?
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I wondered about giving Esther the keys, too. And we have yet to tie the Dedlocks into the story, except by this mysterious letter.
The plot thickens in the next segment, at least to the extent of getting lots more characters! We start on Chapters 8-10 tomorrow, but I've put the new questions in the heading today. Don't faint, when you see the list of characters: Dickens is marshalling his forces, ready for the rest of the book.
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The previous questions are still at the top of page 3, if anyone needs to refer to them.
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Guppy's astonishment - I've seen that face! - strikes me as a good mystery. What has he been observing in his other appearances?
I didn't see a mystery in the document that Tulkinghorn was reading. Wasn't Lady D alarmed at the document he put down where she could easily read it to relieve her boredom?
Nancy, I like it that you are standing up for Mrs. Jellybe. And Barb has to admit that she is a gift for the author in search of characters. I still think that the Jellybe scene is as much about Esther as it is about anyone else. She has been given the keys to everything locked up in Bleak House. She would also like to be our eyes and ears. She is a better do-gooder than anyone else. Just don't invite her into your home. She comes looking for dust and other housekeeping and parenting faults.
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8)
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I don’t suppose we need to know the historical background of the Dedlock family ghost to make sense of her role in the story, but it adds a bit of colorfulness, so here are the results of my quick refresher course via the Columbia Encyclopedia. Those of you who know more than I, please forgive my simplistic explanation and feel free to correct any errors.
The basis of the English Civil War was a power struggle between Charles I and Parliament, Charles insisting on his divine right to do whatever he wanted to, and Parliament insisting on some rights and privileges and pressing for a number of necessary reforms. Each side had good weapons: Parliament could refuse to grant funds to Charles, but Charles could dissolve Parliament. The struggle went on for some time, alternating between calling and dissolving Parliament, ruling without funds and trying to get money from somewhere. Eventually the situation deteriorated into warfare, and Charles was finally defeated, captured, and beheaded in 1649.
The sides tended to be lined up both by class and religion. Parliament had a large middle class component of country gentry and merchants, who tended to side with the roundheads, while most of the nobility sided with Charles. And the Puritans and some other Protestant sects were roundheads, while the Anglicans tended to be royalists.
The whole thing was colorful and full of romantic battles, and feelings ran very high on both sides. (Mrs. Rouncewell still refers to Charles as the blessed martyr.) You can easily understand how the difference in sides led to conflict and ultimately hatred between Sir Morbury and his wife. The fact that she was against Charles might be a hint that she was of a lower class than her husband. In this respect she would be like the current Lady Dedlock: “A whisper still goes about, that she had not even family; howbeit, Sir Leicester had so much family that perhaps he had enough, and could dispense with any more.”
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Pat wasn't the wife of Charles the First from France and a Catholic - something about he was supposed to convert and only converted on his death bed - without doing research I am not sure how that all fits but it seems to me his Catholic connection was involved somehow.
I guess that was why Dickens had to have Lady Deadlock spend time in Paris to increase the connection between her and the wife of Charles I.
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Have done a bit of the preliminary work getting up a list of unsolved mysteries relating to Bleak House. Hopefully the finished list will be ready in the morning. Maybe I shouldn't say "finished" because the plan is to keep adding to it as we go along...and also abbreviating it as the mysteries are solved.
What strikes me about your questions - I thought they'd all focus around Esther - but I was wrong. Most questions center on John Jarndyce. I'm going to confess that I think he's just too good to be true. If he were one of Dickens' women, then I'd think better of him. But he's not! To me he's the type Dickens likes to use for deception. The least expected. Maybe I'm too suspicous. The protegees Jarndyce is taking on all seem to be associated with the Jarndyce case in some way, though Skimpole's relationship with Jarndyce remains a mystery for the mystery list. And then there's Lady Dedlock and the family ghost...what is the relationship to Jarndyce?
Before we move on to the next installment, I would like to thank you, Barbara, for bringing us samples of Dickens' use of setting and description to tell the story. Promise to keep it up? It is so important and yet easy read through for the overall impression, without heading Dickens' art.
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I think Barbara is right, JOANP. We seem to see a pattern of dominant women=passive
men. Mr. Jellyby is simply overwhelmed. He has no influence with his wife and can
hardly be expected to handle the household and all the children. We have met Mr. &
Mrs. Snagsby also. He handles the technical side of the business, but otherwise his
wife runs things. He is somewhat timid and fearful of her. We will probably meet some
more variations on this theme.
Given the times, LAURA, when Esther's godmother tells her that she is her mother's
disgrace, and her mother is hers, I must assume that she was born out of wedlock.
Since her godmother takes it so personally, I am guessing she is related and feels
that she has sacrificed her life for someone else's wrongdoing.
Ada and Richard are cousins, BARB. Esther does not seem to be related to them; she
is simply a protege that Jarndyce highly approves and has chosen to be Ada's companion.
He has followed Esther's development as she grew up, and is greatly pleased with her.
She has already shown herself capable in house management at her previous home. It's
not unreasonable that he would put her in charge of his. My take on Mr. Jarndyce...I think
he is the genuine article. His reactions to bad situations/people is so instinctive. The wind is
in the East!
Speaking of the tenor of the times, I must refer to Lord Dedlock. I do appreciate these lines:
“The present representative of the Dedlocks is an excellent master. He supposes all his dependants to be utterly bereft of individual characters, intentions, or opinions, and is persuaded that he was born to supersede the necessity of their having any. If he were to make a discovery to the contrary, he would be simply stunned--would never recover himself, most likely, except to gasp and die. But he is an excellent master still, holding it a part of his state to be so.”
Actually, you know, that latter bit speaks well of him. So many masters behaved as though they were the only ones whose well-being and satisfaction mattered.
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Babi
What does Dickens really think of the Dedlocks when he writes about them:
"There is no end to Dedlock;whose family greatness seems to consist of their never having done anything to distinguish themselves for 700 years."
Perhaps in their world never having done anything at all is better than doing something bad.
I thought it was a disparaging remark but then again it may not be.
Another remark about class distinctions is the following about the housekeeper:
"Mrs Rouncewell holds no opinion because she considers that a family of such antiquity has a right to a ghost, as one of the priviledges of the upper class, a genteel distintion to which the common people have no claim".
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Pat wasn't the wife of Charles the First from France and a Catholic - something about he was supposed to convert and only converted on his death bed - without doing research I am not sure how that all fits but it seems to me his Catholic connection was involved somehow.
Aaaak! I had almost finished a long reply this morning, when my computer acted up, turned off, and I lost the post. I had to let it sulk for a while before trying again.
You’re right, Barb, Charles married Henrietta Maria, sister of Louis XIII of France. Although she was loyal to her husband, (and Charles couldn’t mess with England’s religion) the people disliked and distrusted her. She didn’t help matters by a number of schemes and plots with rulers of other nations and the Pope. (One of the ways Charles could get money was by making deals with other rulers, often by promising things the British public wouldn’t approve of.)This was indeed a big factor in the dissatisfaction leading up to war.
The whole story is infinitely complicated, fascinating, and romantic. If you ever read Twenty Years After, the sequel to the Three Musketeers, you will remember the historically wildly inaccurate account of Charles’ last days, involving a failed plot to save him, ending with the musketeers hiding under the scaffold during the execution, and Athos saturating his handkerchief with the royal blood, and taking this sacred relic back to Henrietta Maria in France.
All the reforms were badly needed, but I kind of like the description in 1066 and All That of the Roundheads as “right but repulsive” and the Cavaliers as “wrong but wromantic”.
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'If he (Sir Leicester) were to make a discovery to the contrary, he would be simply stunned--would never recover himself, most likely, except to gasp and die.'
Good quote, Babi. Hopefully nothing will happen to upset Lord Dedlock's comfortable life. But there it is. The author has put that possibility into our minds. In fact, after a hundred pages my mind is so cluttered with Dickensian possibilities, as well as realities, that I feel like Mr. Jarndyce who is constantly alert to how the wind is blowing. Wiglomeration does that to one. At times I feel that Dickens is harder on lawyers than he is on philanthropists.
What is the difference between Mrs. Jellybe and Mrs. Pardiggle? Haha. Mrs. P makes house calls. Mrs. J has mailing lists. They both leave a lot of disorder in their wakes. Whose children are happier. Hard to say. Imagine a five year old, swearing off tobacco for the rest of his life!
Funny, too, is the author imagining the two husbands comparing notes. He leaves it to the reader's imagination.
And then there is Esther. What has she been up to deserve all those names? Little Old Woman. Cobweb. Mrs. Shipton (a 15c Yorkshire witch). Dame Durden (a comic street-song character). And so many names of that sort. So much has happened to her since her 'doll days'.
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Given the times, LAURA, when Esther's godmother tells her that she is her mother's
disgrace, and her mother is hers, I must assume that she was born out of wedlock.
Since her godmother takes it so personally, I am guessing she is related and feels
that she has sacrificed her life for someone else's wrongdoing.
I agree with everything you say here, Babi. The missing bit of information is who Esther's father is. Maybe that should be the mystery listed on our list --- Who is Esther's father?
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This section of reading provided new characters and some new tidbits of information, but I still have no idea where all this is leading! That’s OK. We’ve got a long way to go yet.
1. Why is the chapter titled "Covering a Multitude of Sins"
I felt that Mrs. Pardiggle’s interest in charitable works was not genuine. I felt that it was for show. Clearly her boys who were old enough to understand that their allowances were never theirs in the first place, but were donations she forced the boys to make, were angry. They felt their money was essentially being stolen from them by their mother and donated to charity.
Because I don’t believe Mrs. Pardiggle’s charitable works genuinely come from her heart, I think she must have another motive for doing them. The title implies that she is covering a multitude of sins with her charitable work. I don’t know if she has something specific in her past that she is atoning for, or if she feels guilty for her position in life/society. I didn’t pick up any specific evidence from the reading, but just had an overall feeling about her.
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Dickens' world, his cast of characters seems to be burgeoning out of control...almost. I agree with you, Pedln, our appreciation of this novel is dependent to a large extent on the contributions from all of you. I can't imagine getting near so much out of this book reading it on my own. I'm reminded that each of these instalments was probably enjoyed in family circles - read out loud to the assembled - probably with comments similar to those here.
Pat's information on the conflict and ultimately hatred between Sir Morbury Leicester and his wife helps us to understand how tenuous is the relationship between the present Lady Dedlock and her husband.
The implications are there - There's something in Lady D's past that will bring disgrace on the Leicester name. From JBabi's reading - "If he (Sir Leicester) were to make a discovery to the contrary, he would be simply stunned--would never recover himself, most likely, except to gasp and die.'
The ghost on the terrace at Chesney Wold has been waiting for just such a thing to happen - disgrace to the Leicester name." It's surprising that nothing has happened for the last two centuries to bring down the Leicester reputation, isn't it?
As Jude points out - "Perhaps in their world never having done anything at all is better than doing something bad."
Does anyone here have any doubt that Lady D. is Esther's mother? Shall we proceed on that assumption? The question - who is Esther's father will go right on the list now, Laura! Are any of the other characters we've met related to Esther? Siblings, perhaps?
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One more thought about Mr. Guppy's visit to Chesney Wold...before his visit to Bleak House. One question in my mind hasbeen the location of Bleak House. In the very beginning I thought that was the name of Lady Delock's home in Lincolnshire. Did you notice that Bleak House is only 10 miles from the Dedlock's place?
Do you remember WHY Mr. Guppy stopped here? He had no business with the Dedlocks, did he? That was an important moment during the house tour. I found this drawing of the drawing room at Chesney Wold - the room with Lady Dedlock's portrait. Do you see it?
(http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illustration/phiz/139.jpg)
Sunset in the long drawing-room at Chesney Wold by Phiz (Halbot K. Browne). Illustration for Charles Dickens's Bleak House, 1853. Preparatory drawing [compare another drawing]. Source: Steig, plate 6. Beinecke Library, Yale University. [Return to text of Steig.] Image scan and text by Philip V. Allingham
We'll learn more about Mr. Guppy in the present discussion of Instalment III that will get us closer to the truth about that portrait...but I had the thought that Guppy from the moment he lays eyes on it - either recognizes the resemblance between Esther and Lady Dedlock - or he's seen something else that connects that painting to Esther. I don't believe that Mr. Guppy has come to woo Esther because he was overwhelmed by her beauty during their brief meeting at the Chancery.
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JoanP: " It is so important and yet easy read through for the overall impression, without heading Dickens' art."
So true, JoanP. And his little phrases: just reading through the comments this morning, so many delicious little barbs.
He digs at everyone (an equal opportunity sneerer, a friend of mine would say), but when he comes to lawyers, he really goes on another level! I assume this was written shortly after his suit in court.
Jonathan: (on Esther) " Just don't invite her into your home. She comes looking for dust and other housekeeping and parenting faults."
I hadn't noticed, and that's an important point! She is endlessly sympathetic to anyone who is helpless, but very hard on anyone who isn't. Is this a mirror of Dickens' attitude?
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"What is the difference between Mrs. Jellybe and Mrs. Pardiggle? Haha. Mrs. P makes house calls. Mrs. J has mailing lists."
That's funny, Jonathan! I'd rather the mail, than those visits.
A good observation, JoanK! " Is this a mirror of Dickens' attitude?" Hmm, will have to think about that one.
Laura, I'm curious to see if your theory is true. What is Mrs. Pardiggle's motive? Do you think she may be pocketing the money she's raising? Actually, I forget the charity she is taking donations for...do you remember? She certainly isn't sharing with any of the families in the cottages she visits...
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No time till tonight but my heart went out for Jenny - and what struck me is that experience would be typical so that between peasants, poverty, the Black Death it is a miracle any of us are here on this earth - we had to have come from pretty strong stock to make it through the centuries - I just do not think any of us in this discussion are from a royal family to have escaped some of the disease and poor nutrition that was probably one of the causes of Child Death plus the illnesses that would kill a child like as I kid I remember having to be afraid of measles and whooping cough. Although, if any of us were royals I guess the fact the ancestor did not have their head chopped off before passing on the family genes.
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Sometimes I think we are all reading different books. There are so many story lines to follow that it takes all of us to untangle this involved and involving plot.
My involvement is with the comparison between the two "do-gooder" Mothers; Mrs Jellyby and Mrs Pardiggle (are these real names?)
Mrs Pardiggle's children see through her like Caddy did of her Mother, Mrs. Jellyby. Mrs Pardiggle is a terrible parent in exactly the opposite way then Mrs J. Mrs. P has so enmeshed herself with her boys that they can barely breathe. She is a total control freak.
Total control versus neglect. It seems that neglect wins out since the Jellyby children are not aggressive or vengefull, while the young Pardiggles are verbally and physically aggressive. (They all pinch Esther wherear the Jellybys listened to her fairy tales.).
Either way we have a bunch of victims versus a bunch of aggressive louts...Hmmm. neither one is very hopeful.
To even things out Dickens makes sure both Fathers are fading into the background.
I'm sure he had a morality lesson going here. Maybe that Fathers ought to help their children live their lives and not dissappear into the atmosphere.
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Jude: "Total control versus neglect". Mmmm. And neglect wins out. Do you all agree? It does with Dickens, surely -- he has a huge soft spot for the neglected.
JoanP: I completely missed the possibility that Esther might be Lady Deadlock's daughter. Good on you. I think the poertrait of LD is the one with the dark background on the lefthand wall, juust to the left of the odd statue on a piller.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illbrickmakers.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illbrickmakers.jpg)
the visit
to the Brickmaker's
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INSTALMENT
III
IV |
DATE of PUBLICATION
May 1852
June 1852 |
CHAPTERS
8-10
11-13 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Feb.25-29
Mar.1-5 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illreguppy.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illreguppy.jpg)
in re Guppy
Extraordinary Proceedings
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Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter VIII
1. Why is the chapter titled "Covering a Multitude of Sins"
2. In this chapter, Dickens switches from one great house to another (From Chesney Wolds to Bleak House) and from one housekeeper to another (Mrs Roundtree to Esther). What differences and similarities do you see?
3. Do you have a "growlery? Would you like one? What do you do when the wind is from the East? Are you involved in any "wiglomeration"?
4. Why does Esther say "I have nothing to ask you, nothing in the world"? What does that say about Esther, Mr. Jarndice?
Chapter IX
5. Why is this chapter called "Signs and Tokens"? What are the signs?
6. Here Dickens continues his parody of philanthropists. Yet Dickens has been criticized for implying that philanthropy is the answer to the problems of the poor. Can we tell what Dickens' own version of what philanthropy should be from his descriptions of Mrs. Jellyby and Mrs. Pardiggle? How do the two differ? How the same?
7. At the end of the chapter, Esther says she "felt as if an old chord had been more coarsely touched than it ever had been since the days of the dear old doll, long buried in the garden" Why "coarsely touched"? What does she mean?
Chapter X
8. Here we get more new characters, and revisit some. Do you enjoy these characters or is it too much? What is he doing with them?
9. Why do you think Dickens introduces Nemo(no one)?
10. Of all the minor characters in these three chapters, which did you think were the most interesting? Which the least?They are: Mrs Roundtree, Mrs. Paridiggle, the bricklayer, his family, and neighbors, Mr. Boythorn, Mr. Guppy, Mr Snagsby, Mrs. Snagsby, Guster, Nemo (no one), and whoever I forgot
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html);
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Laura: an interesting theory about Mrs. Paradiggle's sins. Yes, with her certainty of HER rightiousness and everyone elses lack thereof, no one would dare question her.
Any other theories (I don't have any, but am always suspecting that Dickens has lots of things going on under the surface that I'm missing. This book is a little like the houses he is describing, so full of a miscellany of thing, you can't see anything clearly).
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It's hard to believe Mrs. Pardiggle accomplished any good whatever. The victims of her charity aren't even people to her, just specimens. She has no notion whatever of what their life is like, or what is appropriate in the way of help. She doesn't even notice the dying baby who immediately attracts the sympathy of Esther and Ada.
I was kind of amused by the brickmaker. He's a drunken brutal mess, but he does have a neat turn of phrase in describing an unsatisfactory situation.
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Yes, Dickens manages to make these real people, even if they aren't to Mrs. Paradiggle.
How much of our charity work is like hers? Imposing our ideas of what people need on them, instead of asking what they need.
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Esther as Lady Dedlock's daughter: I never even thought of that as a possibility, though I assumed her parentage would be an important plot point. I can hardly wait.
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I need to say here that I haven't read the book - nor have I read past the 4th Instalment. I assumed that DIckens had provided a number of clues - Esther was her mother's disgrace - and then the last installment with the implication that Lady Dedlock's disgrace had the potential of bringing down the Dedlock's good name. If there were other clues, I've forgotten now - it just seemed obvious to me that was where Dickens was going with this. It's possible that another woman will be introduced into the story who will turn out to be Esther's mother. Or maybe he will come up with a different story.
I'm glad I asked if others felt the same about LadyD. I think I should go add that to the list of questions until the story unfolds.
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OH yes, it is so easy to get ahead of ourselves - I thought the Godmother who took care of Esther during her early childhood was her Grandmother - what is astonishing is she would the daughter of the Godmother who took care of Esther during her early childhood.
Mrs. P. reminds me of an experience years ago living in Kentucky and active in Girl Scouting - there was a troop who thought it would be good to help out a large poor family after the father was laid up from a recent accident. And so one Saturday morning they arrive to help her - all 26 girls ages 10 to 13 - their plan was to clean her house, tidy the garden and take the smallest children for a walk - a couple of the older children in the family were in the same classes as some of the girls in the troop - anyhow the women wouldn't let them in - shooed them all away - a big tado among the adult leaders about how they were rebuffed and how could she - not saying aloud but everyone knew she was among the poorest in town and not only could but should have been grateful for the help that the girls were offering.
It is ironic now and even then some of us just smiled - there is something called self respect and they were not allowing this family any self respect - which reminds me of Mrs. P who thinks everyone should live as she thinks best.
I love it - either control or neglect and I am sure Mrs P thinks that the bricklayer's household represents neglect caused by not having the incapability of fatigue similar to her own.
Did you catch it that Jenny's mother was watching for her master and when pressed it was her husband that she again referred to him as her master.
I am thinking that the disorganized dirty households are in our minds only a problem where there are families because come to think of it there could not be a more disorganized filthy establishment that included living quarters than that of Mr. Krook. Which makes you wonder if the silent men or boisterous in the case of the bricklayer would be any better at keeping the household organized, clean with children happily attending school. Come to think on it wasn't school a situation where you had to be able to afford to place your child either in a boarding school or with a minister's family - I do not think there were yet any tax supported schools.
OH yes, and the dingy dirty water used to wash things - we think just turn on the tap for clean water and goodness only knows how far away they had to go for their water - it could have been a hand pump in their yard but another Girls Scout story - I was bringing a car full of 6 teen age Senior Scouts into a small community in the hills of East Kentucky - they were going to assist some of the students from Barea Collage to immunize everyone, and have some history classes for the adults - this was in the 60s when roads were being built throughout the state and some of these communities had been isolated ever since the Stamp Tax put a stop to making and shipping whiskey. The mountains are too steep to grow enough of anything to ship so they became isolated communities.
Anyhow I had my three little ones piled in sitting on top of luggage and on laps when my oldest got car sick - we needed to wash him and the car so I stopped at a nearby house to ask for water. She handed me a pail and said if I walk about a half mile under an outcropping there was the pool they used for water. Believe you me if every drop of water we used I had to scoop it from among the green growth on top and haul it home in pails I would not be as clean and I would be using it over and over along with in that part of the county the coal dust that settled on every porch, windowsill and clothes on the clothes line. This family being the bricklayer's family I bet there was mud and dust all over that yard brought in the house on everyone's feet or shoes.
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I, too, missed any implication that Lady D might be Esther's mother.....Oh boy, this book just keeps on introducing new characters and bringing up new questions. I am glad we are reading it and discussing it together otherwise I might have given up. I don't remember any of Dicken's other books being so hard to keep track of. Reading it section by section and discussing it gives us the same feeling as reading it in installments.
Sally
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hahaha.......I think we'd better put Esther's mother on the list of UNSOLVED MYSTERIES after all. For one thing, we don't know who her father was - for another, we don't know for certain about the relationship between Esther and her godmother. Barbara says - "what is astonishing is she was the daughter of the Godmother who took care of Esther during her early childhood " I remember that the godmother , Miss Barbary was identified at her death as Esther's aunt... which would make Esther's mother Miss Barbary's sister, wouldn't it? I think we'd better leave it to Dickens to reveal the identity of Mrs. Barbary's sister - in his own time- and you can bet he will reveal that mystery. And he's going to leave more clues along the way.
Glad you are staying with us, Sally. It makes a difference reading it as part of a group, doesn't it?
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Ah Sooo ... the Godmother is an Aunt - I am going to have to put a flow chart together to understand who is who and how they are related. Still do not understand then why Esther is living with John Jarndyce if she has nothing to do with Jarndyce and Jarndyce but maybe she does and maybe so does Lady Deadlock - oh dear this is a muddle - I think I'm with Sally on this and would rather just take this a chapter at a time as it is written and maybe then I can figure out the string game - as of now I feel like I need another hand to untangle the string.
I am glad I watched the series Lark Rise to Candleford because I bet the look of it and the ways of the people were similar to what we are reading in Bleak House. Except the poor folk of Lark Rise seemed a lot cleaner than I bet was real and certainly a lot cleaner than I am imagining the scenes in Chapter VIII
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The plot thickens in the next segment, at least to the extent of getting lots more characters! Don't faint, when you see the list of characters: Dickens is marshalling his forces, ready for the rest of the book.
I'm really glad we have that list of all the characters. I look at it and realize that I've now met the vast majority of them.
Sometimes I really groan when Dickens introduces one more quirky, peculiar character, but then I get sucked in and laugh and enjoy the newcomer.
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JUDE, I don't think Dickens remark could be anything but disparaging. He doesn't seem to have
a very good opinion of the 'fashionable' world and the nobility, and he is able to make his
points very ....well, pointedly.
While we're speaking of royal lapses and/or prerogatives, this might fall in there somewhere.
King James, (who authorized the King James Version of the Bible), chose his translators with a
view to insisting the new version emphasized his divine royal authority.
And wouldn't we all, JONATHAN, be much happier to receive a mailing we could toss, than a vist
from an insensitive intruder who couldn't take no for an answer? And thank you for the
explanation of 'Dame Durden' and 'Mrs. Shipton'. I wondered who they were. All are terms of
endearment, of course, tho' I can't imagine how that applied to Mrs. Shipton. I agree, there
was a bit too much of that.
This is only a guess, mind you. But considering we have learned of a mysterious, unknown man
who died miserably, we know he must have some part in the story. Couldn't this be the former lover and Esther's father?
I can't really think Esther enters someone's house looking for faults. But if you enter one
like Mrs. Jellyby's they pretty much hit you in the face, don't they? She would have to be
blind not to see them. JOANK, I think you are quite right that Esther's attitude toward the
helpless mirrors that of Dickens.
I suddenly occurred to me that Mrs. Pardiggle's attitude was unpleasantly reminiscent of the
Inquisition. Saving the soul was all that mattered; if you killed the person while you were at
it you had still done the (self)righteous thing.
( Loved the 'fetch the water' story, BARB.)
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One of the questions asked was " Why did Mr. Guppy's love remind Esther of the doll she buried?".
Perhaps, and this is a surmise, ,Mr Guppy reminded her that there is love that has no logic. It just IS. Her love for her doll and his love for her are not provoked by the object but by the person who HAS to love something or someone.. Esther buried her doll, now she decides to bury Mr . Guppy's love.
The next totally unrelated subject is the poetic quality of some of Dickens writing. Sometimes it blows me away. Here are three examples;
"For smoke, which is London's ivy, had so wreathed itself around Peffer's name and clung to his dwelling place that the
affectionate parasite quite overpowered the parent tree."
"....in the shrunken fragments of its greatness lawyers, lie like maggots, in nuts."
"Tulkingorn is an oyster of the old school whom nobody can open."
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Barbara...one chapter at a time! Mabye that's what we need to do to catch everything Dickens has packed into each. As it is now, we are taking one installment at a time - each made up of three chapters. I'm getting into the rythim of his writing, and yet I still find myself rereading when you all bring up things you 've read in the chapters.
I exhaled when I read that Dickens has already introduced most of the characters in these early installments, PatH! Thanks for that. It's encouraging. I find if I just relate the new characters to the Jarndyce case -- and to Esther, I'm okay.
Jude, thank you so much for bringing those samples of Dickens' writing. He's provided a provoking plot and social commentary all in this glorious writing. What more can we ask for? I hope others will follow your example and post examples of his writing as they catch your eye.
Speaking of the plot - Marcie has put together this page of UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html)[which we'll keep in the heading to answer as the mysteries are solved and additional mysteries as they occur...
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I am confused - I have read and re-read and still I am confused - is Chesney Wold Bleak House or are they two separate houses - I read that Chesney Wold is in Lincolnshire and looked it up to learn there is still a Chesney Wold which is the name of a road.
In chapter II Lady Dedlock has returned to her house in town for a few days ...This is where she spends time before leaving for Paris and is where she traveled to leaving the dreary rain in Lincolnshire - now this is the progression that confuses me if Chesney Wold is or is not Bleak House.
My Lady Dedlock has been down at what she calls, in familiar conversation, her "place" in Lincolnshire...
My Lady Dedlock's place has been extremely dreary...
The vases on the stone terrace in the foreground catch the rain all day; and the heavy drops fall--drip, drip, drip--upon the broad flagged pavement, called from old time the Ghost's Walk, all night...
My Lady Dedlock (who is childless), looking out in the early twilight from her boudoir at a keeper's lodge and seeing the light of a fire upon the latticed panes, and smoke rising from the chimney, and a child, chased by a woman, running out into the rain to meet the shining figure of a wrapped-up man coming through the gate, has been put quite out of temper.
Follows is the description of Leicester Dedlock and how he fell in love and how after marriage Lady Dedlock froze rather than melting and how she is very attractive and then we have...
With all her perfections on her head, my Lady Dedlock has come up from her place in Lincolnshire (hotly pursued by the fashionable intelligence) to pass a few days at her house in town previous to her departure for Paris, where her ladyship intends to stay some weeks, after which her movements are uncertain. And at her house in town, upon this muddy, murky afternoon, presents himself an old- fashioned old gentleman, attorney-at-law and eke solicitor of the High Court of Chancery, who has the honour of acting as legal adviser of the Dedlocks and has as many cast-iron boxes in his office with that name outside as if the present baronet were the coin of the conjuror's trick and were constantly being juggled through the whole set.
Sir Leicester Dedlock is with my Lady and is happy to see Mr. Tulkinghorn.
All that does say that they have a house in town and both Dedlocks are in that house together - given we know that Lady Dedlock was the ;) "sister" of Miss Barbary and the class distinction suggests that there was no way this house in town could have been brought into the marriage as the home of Lady Dedlock before her marriage to Sir Leicester.
Since the house she left in the dreary rain of Lincolnshire is described as having a Ghost Walk it must be the same house that Guppy previews with his friend.
Now online the information about the filming of this story that was picked up and compressed by PBS says It was filmed on location in Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, and Kent from February 2005 through to July 2005. The exterior of the Dedlock's country house Chesney Wold, was represented by Cobham Hall in Kent, which is a girls' boarding school, and is occasionally open to the public. The exterior of Bleak House was represented by Ingatestone Hall in Essex. Other houses used for interior shots and garden locations include Balls Park in Hertfordshire, Bromham Hall in Bromham, Bedfordshire, and Luton Hoo in Bedfordshire.
Have we just not yet read anything taking place at Bleak House - it may be mentioned in the chapters we are reading this week and if so - sorry I have only read chapter 8 so far. What confuses me is were we to understand the house in town, which I am assuming to be London, is actually Bleak House. Help... ??? :-\ :'(
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P.S. Joan I like the reading of three chapters as a group however, I find myself reading one at a time and commenting on what I have read after each chapter - sometimes even before I have completed the chapter and then I relate the three and finally see the connections to the entire of what we have read so far - that is my way - not suggesting it for anyone else - it is what works for me.
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Barb, it's two separate houses. Chesney Wold is the Dedlock family seat, in Lincolnshire, which has been in the family for centuries (the ghost walked there before her death in the 1600s). Sir Leicester also has a house in town; I don't know how long that has been in the family.
Bleak House is the house where John Jarndyce lives, and now Esther, Ada, and Richard live there too, and Skimpole seems to also. It's only mentioned by its name once, so it's very easy to miss.
Your approach to the chapters looks like a good one to me. Maybe if I do that I won't have to go back as much.
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ahhh - I would never have thought John Jarndyce lived in Bleak house - from the description of his house it does not sound very bleak to me or at least my concept of this dreary, dark, spooky looking house that I see portrayed in so many graphics. Now I have to figure out why his house is called Bleak House - I remember now reading - yes, it was changed from was it Peak house - something like that and was only called Bleak House by his father or grandfather - looks like I need to find that and re-read it . Thanks for clearing up my confusion.
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That's right, Barbara. We've learned that Bleak House, once called Peaks, took its name during Tom Jarndyce's lifetime because he allowed it to go to rack and ruin.
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Barbara, it may be that Dickens is blowing smoke into our eyes. He definitely does make Chesney Wold look very bleak with all that rotten weather. It may also be that Dickens himself lost track of his whereabouts in the big picture he had in mind.
I've read somewhere that Dickens could feel heartbroken after finishing a novel, which meant saying goodbye to all the characters who had come along to have their story told. I wonder. Will we feel the same when we turn the last page?
Who's sins are we reading about in Chapter 8? I can't see Mrs. Pardiggle as being without sin, but, in any case, her good intentions far outweigh any moral shortcomings. Besides, Dickens, I'm sure, has bigger fish to fry in his expose of English immorality.
Now, meddling with scripture in choosing translators who can be expected to know their sovereign's wishes is sinful. King James is going to have to pay for that in Hell, I'm certain.
I got the impression that the baby being cradled in the brickmaker's wife's arms was dead. Lost completely on Mrs. Pardiggle, upsetting furniture in her turns about the room, with her billowing skirts.
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To use country slang Jonathan - There is no accounting for how someone uses a fishhook or some say bullet - seems to me lots of folks use the translated Bible verses to justify all sorts of behavior - and I have witnessed some lulus in my lifetime.
Thank for the clarity on Bleak House/Peak House - yes, Tom Jarndyce - - OK all this re-reading and checking who is who and where they are I was struck again and thought I would share...
Have you noticed - I call them Arke or Mercury or Iris - all messengers for the gods. I was calling them avatars but after looking up the definition had to change and call them messengers which wasn't dramatic enough - I like to read Victorian Novels with a lot of drama and so they became the wind footed Iris who marries the west wind, the gentlest of winds and the sister to Arke/Arce, who looses her wings taking sides against Zeus and Arce gives her shorn wings to Thetis at her wedding who fixes them to the heals of her son, Achilles. Or sleepy stillness as if the god Hypnos descended.
Anyhow, great fun reading Bleak house because if you notice the first few sentences and the last few sentence of each chapter guide us to what is happening within the chapter and moves us if we are to expect a change of location - we had Caddy leading them through London to meet the old Lady who led them to her rooms and then back to Caddy who takes them home. We have a carriage arrive that leads them out of London. We had Guppy take them and us to the Jellyby house - just look at the first and last paragraphs of each chapter it is amazing in that to me they all act as messengers - If it is quick transport then I name in my head the messenger as Mercury, if it is a chapter of good news, it is Iris, loss of understanding or of a place then it is Arce or the stillness of Hypnos.
By the way the god Eurus represents the unlucky east wind. He was thought to bring warmth and rain, and his symbol was an inverted vase, spilling water. humm maybe all that rain is spilling from the inverted vases of Eurus.
A couple of 1st and last bits from Bleak House - Chapter II a neat package contained within the chapter that feels as hypnotic as sleepy, still HypnosIt is but a glimpse of the world of fashion that we want on this same miry afternoon. - But the weather is extremely trying, and she really has been bored to death down at our place in Lincolnshire."
Chapter II Suggesting 'not clever' therefore, not the wisdom of age and so, youth added to, mystery, good fortune and unanswered questions. A rainbow chapter heralded by Iris I have a great deal of difficulty in beginning to write my portion of these pages, for I know I am not clever. I always knew that. - "Youth. And hope. And beauty. And Chancery. And Conversation Kenge! Ha! Pray accept my blessing!"
Chapter III We pick right up with Kenge who explains and Guppy takes - the messenger to me is Arce with his gift to Thetis of his lost wings We were to pass the night, Mr. Kenge told us when we arrived in his room, at Mrs. Jellyby's; and then he turned to me and said he took it for granted I knew who Mrs. Jellyby was... Guppy, see the party safely there. - Lastly, it was no one, and I was no one. The purblind day was feebly struggling with the fog when I opened my eyes to encounter those of a dirty-faced little spectre fixed upon me. In Victorian times spectre were ghosts. The last sentence talks about Peepy climbing from his crib so cold his teeth were chattering as if he cut them all. That could be foretelling us of another young 'spectre' that will rattle Esther.
I could go on but y'all get the gist of another way we can enjoy the story and another look at the genius of Dickens - with a compelling first sentence to each chapter with a wrap up that can stand alone as well as, lead to the next chapter makes each chapter have all the ingredients of a short story so that, he connects short story to short story for over a year - amazing.
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The baby was gasping its last when Mrs. Pardiggle arrived. When she swooshed out, Esther and Ada lingered, and the baby died before their eyes. It was certainly sick enough when they entered that anyone with any compassion would have noticed it immediately.
Barb, I totally hadn't noticed that structural detail in the chapters. What a craftsman Dickens was!
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There is one small clue to Esther's father.
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Barb-your information regarding the 'wind/winds' was so helpful; I was wondering why the references --though my husband being a boater, has made me aware bad weather comes from the east (talking about boating on Georgian Bay/L. Huron)
love the way Dickens references weather thru the pages of this book
pg 93 (ch VIII)'........finding all beyond still enshrouded in the indistinctness of last night, to watch how it turned out when the day came on. As the prospect gradually revealed itself, and disclosed the scene over which the wind had wandered in the dark, like my memory over my life, I had a pleasure in discovering the unknown objects that had been around me in my sleep.'
pg 98'...to hint that he felt the wind'
[what an good way to let people know they are treading dangerously with your mood; and hopefully they can back off,....!!]--my thoughts
pg 121...I felt, from my Guardian's manner, that beyond this point I could not pursue the subject without changing the wind.'
Deb
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Anyhow, great fun reading Bleak house because if you notice the first few sentences and the last few sentence of each chapter guide us to what is happening within the chapter and moves us if we are to expect a change of location.
Great observation, BARB. I hadn't noticed that, and it makes a very helpful hint for keeping
track of events and spotting clues.
Again, I am greatly enjoying Dickens’ powers of description. I can see Mr. and Mrs.
Snagsby clearly. And Mr. Tulkinghorn. Not just physical descriptions; their personalities, too.
Look at Tulkinghorn. “Rusty, out of date, withdrawing from attention, able to afford it.” Even his home/office tells us so much. “Everything that can have a lock has one; no key is visible.’ The sly little addendum of 'able to afford it'. And the secretiveness of the man;
so thoroughly 'locked up'.
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So we've established that Bleak House and Chesney Wold are two different estates outside of London - and that Chesney Wold is located in Lincolnshire? Are they anywhere near one another? Is Bleak House located in Lincolnshire too?
Babi, I too am enjoying the examples of Dickens power of description - both his characters, the interiors of the estate homes, of the brickmaker's - and of course, the weather. Wonderful references to the wind here this morning - the east wind in particular. Is the east wind supposed to be convey ominous happenings in general, or does it only affect John Jarndyce in this way? An interesting note, Deb - that for boaters, bad weather comes from the EAST. And as you've pointed out, weather plays an important role in Dickens' story.
I'm wondering now whether Chesney Wold is to the east of Bleak House...
Does anyone remember what brought Mr. Guppy to Chesney Wold - other than curiosity? It was here he is struck by the portrait of Lady Dedlock. A significant moment. But what brings him here in the first place. Did his visit to Bleak House take place immediately after the visit to Chesney Wold?
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"There is one small clue to Esther's father."
Nancymc - a tantalizing remark! That is the number one question on our list of UNSOLVED MYSTERIES! What is the clue, however small?
Chapter IX brings in a new character. I'm wondering if you noticed the description of Lawrence Boythorn, Boythorn turns out to be an old school friend of John Jarndyce - and also a close neighbor of the Dedlocks of Chesney Wold. In that chapter we learn that Ada Clare and Rick Carstone are relatives of Sir Leicester, as well as cousins of John Jarndyce. The plot thickens. Though it gives no clue as to where Esther fits in.
Esther is shocked that Boythorn never married - "he is so tender and courtly." Why isn't he married, she wonders. - Boythorn, this close neighbor to the Dedlocks, "almost married once. ...this would influence all his life. He's never been since what he might have been..."
He does have an effect on her. She goes to bed that night, "trying to imagine old people young again, invested with graces of youth" - but her dreams bring her to days at godmother's house ." "She almost always dreams of that."
Nancymc, is Boythorn's proximity to Chesney Wold and his unrequited love story the clue that you picked up on? Is Dickens suggesting that he is Esther's father? Or do you think Boythorn is another minor character in the story?
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Nancymc, I caught a clue too--the one that JoanP just mentioned, don't know if that's yours. But there may be different ones. I have 2 conflicting theories as to the father's identity.
Something else we mustn't forget: this is a murder mystery. Who do we think is going to get killed, and why?
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I thought Bleak House might be close to Chesney Wold too, but looking back, I see that Bleak House is in Hertfordshire, which is close to London, while Lincolnshire is much farther north.
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I will just say why was Lady Dedlock 'overcome'
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Yes, that was my other theory.
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Boythorn would seem to be capable of murder. And Sir Leicester is also subject to raging tempers. Boythorn is quoted as willing to do anything for the 'most accomplished Lady D' Perhaps there was a liason in the past, with Esther the love child. Fighting over a right of way along a path alongside the parsonage reflects the strong feelings the two men have about each other.
Settling differences in court is not an option it seems. Boythorn is prepared to blow the whole system skyhigh. Nothing ever gets settled once the affairs of men land in court.
Here's the irony. Pity the poor canary, Boythorn's joy and delight. 'I have left an annuity for his sole support, in case he should outlive me.' The poor bird will never see any of that money. Somewhere else we've been told that inheriting a great fortune would be punishment enough for the greatest wrongdoing.
Thanks to all of you for your tips on how to read and enjoy Dickens.
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I sense Esther speculating about several candidates as 'father.' Parentage is certainly a major theme in the book. And of course identity. Who is Esther?
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Laura, I'm curious to see if your theory is true. What is Mrs. Pardiggle's motive? Do you think she may be pocketing the money she's raising? Actually, I forget the charity she is taking donations for...do you remember? She certainly isn't sharing with any of the families in the cottages she visits...
It never occurred to me that Mrs. Pardiggle was doing anything unethical with the money she raised.
Here is a description of her charitable works from the text:
I am a School lady; I am a Visiting lady, I am a Reading lady, I am a Distributing lady; I am on the local Linen Box Committee, and many general Committees; and my canvassing alone is very extensive --- perhaps no one’s more so.
My B&N edition has a footnote regarding Mrs. Pardiggle:
Like Mrs. Jellyby, Mrs. Pardiggle represents Dicken’s antipathy toward what he regarded as aggressive women engaged in misguided --- and often self-serving --- charitable efforts. He had earlier characterized a “Mrs. Bellows,” who must agitate, agitate” and “work away at a Mission,” in a similar manner in “Sucking Pigs” (Household Words, November 8, 1851).
[I think Household Words was a magazine.]
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Does anyone remember what brought Mr. Guppy to Chesney Wold - other than curiosity? It was here he is struck by the portrait of Lady Dedlock. A significant moment. But what brings him here in the first place. Did his visit to Bleak House take place immediately after the visit to Chesney Wold?
Mr. Guppy and his companion wanted "to see the house." My B&N edition has a footnote about this:
Some country houses were opened to tourists during certain seasons and hours when the family was not in residence.
Mr. Guppy claimed that they had been on business at the magistrates' meeting and had heard a great deal said of Chesney Wold, so they came to see it.
In other words, we really don't know what the real purpose of their visit was. They were pretending to be tourists.
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My B&N edition has a footnote regarding Mrs. Pardiggle:
Like Mrs. Jellyby, Mrs. Pardiggle represents Dicken’s antipathy toward what he regarded as aggressive women engaged in misguided --- and often self-serving --- charitable efforts.
I have mixed emotions about Dickens' attitude toward women in charity. On one hand, I think he disapproves of even the women who do real good, because it doesn't fit his notion of woman's proper sphere.
BUT, women like Mrs. Pardiggle really existed, and it was important to ridicule them and show up how much harm they did, and, with luck, discourage them. It's bad enough to be down on your luck without having to endure the obtrusive ministrations of Mrs. P.
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Seems to me I am remembering that Elizabeth Bennet and her Aunt and Uncle Gardiner visit Pemberley, Darcy's estate, in Jane Austin's Pride and Prejudice believing Darcy will be absent. Their visit was a tour of the house. Remembering that in a story written about 30 years earlier it appears to be a practice that was not unusual.
All sounds rather ominous with Richard having a casual relationship with money and yet, this is Esther thinking and we know she has a spine of steal. She does grant him characteristics of being ardent, gentle, brave, lighthearted, frank and generous. We also learn that Richard is related to Lady Dedlock my Lady sent her compliments to the young gentleman (to whom she perfectly remembered that she was allied by remote consanguinity)
Much quiet-as-mice going on - no word about Skimpole. Since his debt is paid I assume he is still in the house and it is difficult to imagine him being as quiet as a mouse. No word either that Skimpole sits by the fire that evening.
Interesting the opposites created with the first bit describing the house and everyone in it as quiet, whispery, waiting and then all we needed was trumpets roar announcing, he does blow in, late and comer-fuddled over how he became late, the bombastic Mr. Lawrence Boythorn, who we learn is a neighbor to Sir Leicester Dedlock. This story is like weaving a basket with each reed a character that is related to the whole and to each other.
I was struck how Boythorn was not minding his own business any more than Mrs. Pardiggle minded her own business. Both expressed how another should act and feel but because he had a wee canary feeding in his hand and what Boythorn says is with a laugh it all seems acceptable. Wonder if Dickens is suggesting a helpless trained bird is less threatening than children either needy or angry.
My take on the final paragraph...
But, when I went upstairs to my own room, I surprised myself by beginning to laugh about it and then surprised myself still more by beginning to cry about it. In short, I was in a flutter for a little while and felt as if an old chord had been more coarsely touched than it ever had been since the days of the dear old doll, long buried in the garden.
is indeed related to the first bit when Esther says,
I am really vexed and say, "Dear, dear, you tiresome little creature, I wish you wouldn't!" but it is all of no use.
she is talking about her feelings not her physical self but her inner self which sounds like the burying of the doll had more implications - she not only buried childhood things as if burying her childhood reactions and memories but, was burying her freedom to feel. It helps to connect the dots showing how she is organized, doing the proper thing following all courtesies. There is no kicking up her heals or engaging in any intimacies although, she observes them with Richard and Ada. She has become like a peeping Tom to her own life. Fluttered, flustered or flattered Guppy's awkward proposal touched a chord of feeling humor and tears of what, loneliness, abandonment, gratefulness that she was noticed for more than her efficiency? Her tears are left for us to decipher. Maybe just tears of being close to her feelings again that she thought she had buried.
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...she not only buried childhood things as if burying her childhood reactions and memories but, was burying her freedom to feel....She has become like a peeping Tom to her own life....
That's an insightful take on Esther. She certainly has never had the opportunity to consider her own feelings.
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I decided to buy the DVD of the BBC production of Bleak House, and it arrived yesterday - watched part of the first episode in bed last night (couldn't last till the end, but that was me, not the production!). It is very good, I think, and Charles Dance is an excellent Tulkinghorn, so silent and knowing. Pauline Collins (she of the original Upstairs Downstairs, also 'Shirley Valentine') is Miss Flite - wonderful.
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Good. I'll keep it in mind for the time when I'm ready to watch. Are you going to watch in stages along with reading to avoid spoilers?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illguppydesolation.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illguppydesolation.jpg)
Mr. Guppy's Desolation
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
III
IV |
DATE of PUBLICATION
June 1852
July 1852 |
CHAPTERS
11-13
14-16 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.1-5
Mar.6-10 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illfamilyportraits.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illfamilyportraits.jpg)
The Family Portraits
at Bayham Badger's
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter XI
1. Why are we introduced to a character who has just died, yet seems to be of importance to Mr. Tulkinghorn?
Do you have any ideas about his possible role in the story?
2. Have you ever attended an inquest? Of course, you will have read about many of them.
Was Mrs. Piper’s testimony relevant? And why was Jo’s testimony unacceptable?
3. What does Jo’s testimony reveal about the life of a homeless orphan?
4. What does Mr. Snagsby’s interview with Jo reveal about him.
5 What further prejudices, either Dickensian or English, do you find in this section? (Hint: ‘Caffre’ apparently is a corruption of Kaffir.)
6. What is your first impression of Lady Dedlock?
7. Having met Mlle. Hortense, what do you think of her? What do you expect from
someone like her?
Chapter XII
8. What did you think of Dickens’ dissertation on the fashionable ‘dandyism’ of the day? Does any of it remind you of attitudes today?
9. What is Mr. Tulkinghorn’s status at Chesney Wold? What does it say about his relationship with the present Lord?
10. What changes in the relationship of Mr. Tulkinghorn and Lady Dedlock on the occasion of this visit? What do you think it portends for the future?
Chapter XIII
11. What are we learning about Richard Carstone’s character?
12. What do you think of the boisterous Mr. Boythorn? Do you like him? Dislike him? Why?
13. Esther appears at a disadvantage here, in coping with Mr. Guppy. Is this typical for a young lady of her times, or is it the result of her personal history? How does it compare with the way a modern young woman would have handled the situation?
14. Share your impression of Mr. and Mrs. Badger. Have you ever known any couple like this? Could you even have imagined a couple like this?
15. Can you compare Mr. Jarndyce’s attitude toward his wards with Sir Leicester Dedlock’s attitude toward his dependents?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Yes - that is why I bought it instead of borrowing it from the library. As it is a boxed set I would have been paying something like £2 per 2 weeks, plus a 50p reservation fee, and it only cost £5.99 from Amazon - also I'd probably have ended up paying a fine when I forgot to take it back on time. I usually do all I can to support the library, but in this instance I decided it was easier just to buy it. I also think it's something I will watch more than once.
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Please don't watch too much, Rosemary...you'll have the mysteries solved before reading them in Dickens' own words!
I'm wondering how long it will be before we begin to check off some of the UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html) on our growing list..
Jonathan asked a question yesterday that stays in the front of my mind - who is Esther? We know she's Miss Barbary's niece...illegitimate, probably. We know she's one of John Jarndyce's wards...but we don't know how that came to be. She is living in Bleak House as a companion to Ada Clare, a cousin of Jarndyce and related somehow to Sir Leicester Dedlock. She is also the housekeeper, who presides at tea.
But who is she? We can only speculate.
Barbara sees Esther "as a peeping Tom to her own life." That's a good description, Barb. I think that's how Dickens is using her too. Did you know that Esther is the only female narrator Dickens ever used? Esther narrates that she has given up on the idea that her guardian, John Jarndyce is her father. Have you?
There's another narrator in Bleak House - the omnicient narrator - who has described Lady Dedlock as "childless." Does that rule her out as Esther's mother? Or do we not believe the omnicient narrator? Is this an omnicient narrator?
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PatH, I am beginning to spot some characters that seem to me to be possible
candidates for murder. It's too soon to pick a favorite, tho'. We'll have to watch
for our choice the nastiest, most deserving candidate.
Why would we suppose that Mr. Guppy was 'pretending' to be a tourist, LAURA? His explanation seemed entirely reasonable to me. I imagine that is how a good many tourists came to arrive at the doorstep. Then, his seeing the portrait of Lady Dedlock and seeming to
recognize it is entirely happenstance. But important to the story, as Barb notes below.
This story is like weaving a basket with each reed a character that is related
to the whole and to each other.
I think that is so important, BARB. Nothing in this story can be dismissed as
irrelevant. The comparison to weaving a basket is very apt.
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Joan - don't worry, I'm only going to watch as far as I've read. And I'll keep quiet if they give anything away :)
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OK, I'll stop worrying about you, then. :D
I'm suspicious of Guppy's motives too, Babi. Laura implies that he was only pretending to be a tourist to get inside of the Dedlock home. That makes him suspect in my mind. He has to have had another reason. Then there's the sudden marriage proposal. Did you believe that he fell in love with Esther that one time he saw her at the Chancery? I could understand if Esther looked like Ada Clare - but she doesn't. I could understand if Guppy was taken with Ada. But based on that one meeting, we're to believe that Guppy is so in love with Esther that he proposes marriage.
I can see why she would weep at this proposal. PatH notes that Esther never had the opportunity to consider her own feelings. Is this all there is to love? She has no feelings for this young man who wishes to marry her.
"Perhaps Mr Guppy reminded her that there is love that has no logic. It just IS." Jude.
But doesn't there have to be more? Maybe she weeps because somebody loves her - for herself. Maybe these are tears of joy. I don't know -I sense Esther's bewilderment here. She doesn't feel anything. Will this turn out to be a love story, as well as a mystery story?
Again, I'm suspicious of Guppy - I think he's come upon some information about Esther that makes her a person of interest...but what it is, I don't know. How do you see him? Are you sympathetic to the lovesick young man - or?
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Why would we suppose that Mr. Guppy was 'pretending' to be a tourist, LAURA? His explanation seemed entirely reasonable to me. I imagine that is how a good many tourists came to arrive at the doorstep. Then, his seeing the portrait of Lady Dedlock and seeming to
recognize it is entirely happenstance. But important to the story, as Barb notes below.
The idea that Mr. Guppy just happens to come to the Dedlock's country house as a tourist, in the pouring rain, just doesn't seem believable to me. It is perfectly plausible, but seems too coincidental, given the story so far. Now here’s another question --- what does Dickens want us to believe? Coincidence or not?
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I'm suspicious of Guppy's motives too, Babi. Did you believe that he fell in love with Esther that one time he saw her at the Chancery? I could understand if Esther looked like Ada Clare - but she doesn't. I could understand if Guppy was taken with Ada. But based on that one meeting, we're to believe that Guppy is so in love with Esther that he proposes marriage.
I wonder if Guppy is trying to strike before others do. Esther is a ward of the generous Mr. Jarndyce now and may bring a substantial dowry to a marriage. Marrying "into the Jarndyce family" would be a good financial move, I would think.
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OK Guppy hmmm - did he fall for Esther on sight - hmmm that to me is two questions - did he fall - that is assuming he has the capacity to fall - for Esther on sight - and that assumes that the appearance of Esther is a sight worthy of an fall.
OK yes, I repeat :D ;) ::) OK - this is my impression without backup material from the book quoting who Guppy is or rather, the soul and feelings of Guppy - he is a Jr. something or other in this Law firm where he does the bidding of the more senior lawyers. He prides himself in being knowledgeable and efficient and even thorough as he guided the three Jarndyce clients to the Jellyby house and he is about the business of law when traveling all the way to Chesney Wold.
The way he proposes is as if he is developing a legal document - he shows no feelings - did not court Esther - acts like he is buying a desirable piece of furniture or barouche that he really wants and he wants guarantees that I get the feeling he would insist upon including in a marriage contract.
The man displays no feelings - romantic or otherwise - he only wants to secure a lack of embarrassment for himself if he is denied his request and further he wants the good opinion or at least a good working relationship if he fails to cement the deal.
He reminds me of someone who is as many books entitled say Up From...Slavery, Ashes, the Ground, the Grave, the Underground...He may be a Jr. lawyer but I get the impression his education and knowledge in lifeskills is very very limited. With a mother who is self-sufficient in her own house says they are not of the poor peasant class however, the middle class is a fairly new phenomenon and so his driving, striving, desire to succeed reminds me of the masculine version of Esther who wants to be liked and succeed by being the same source of help and assistance to others as Guppy. The difference she may not see abandoned intimate relationships for herself as a Richard type would bring but she knows she wants to feel more than admired like a new household fixture.
I also think to Guppy an Ada is too far out of his reach - a distant star if not a distant galaxy - in fact so far out of his reach he does not even take notice - he only notices what he has a chance at pocketing plus, I think he sees in Esther her desire to please others that he recognizes since he has embarked on this characteristic for his own success. I also think he likes the idea Esther appears to be able to take care of herself - he knows nothing about the duties she has taken on at Bleak House but, her very countenance that he would have observed in London as she got in and out of the carriage would have told him how capable she was rather than a dainty lady whose delicacy invokes solicitous care.
Esther blushed when she asked Mr. Jarndyce about Boythorn - leads me to think Esther likes an older man who is kind and cheerful that would make her feel secure and nurtured in addition to a need to fill the hole left by not having a father so that an older man in some ways can offer that kind of security.
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Guppy's motives: he definitely was attracted on first seeing her. He paid her an awkward and unnecessary compliment when she got into the coach to go to Mrs. Jellyby's. But there's definitely something else. He hints several times during his proposal that, although he has no knowledge now, he could find out things in her interest.
Did anyone notice that to get up the courage to propose he drank off 4 glasses of wine in a few minutes? It's a wonder he could get up off his knees.
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I agree that Guppy seems to be a bit of an opportunist, but at the same time, it must have been very hard to make your way in London in those days with no financial backing. He needs a wife, he probably also needs money. You do get the impression, however, that he must know more about Esther than she knows herself.
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Right on. When his offer of love is rejected, Guppy offers to serve her interests. He seems to be aware of Esther's circumstances. He's a very industrious law clerk gathering facts in his curious travels. The intense scrutiny that Esther gets reflects the turning wheels in his head. An offer made without prejudice. Explain the fine points of that for us, Rosemary.
Guppy is not old enough to be her father. Hence, of no interest to her.
Murder in the offing. We've had four deaths so far. All of natural causes?
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Sorry to those who suspect Guppy's motives.Begging your pardon, I strongly disagree.
He really is a lovesick puppy and true romantic even though he serves the law.He is young and has fallen head over heels.
Dickens convinced me that the young man is sincere in his love for Esther. He tells her of his salary, his possible future etc.
Dickens has to put in a few likeable people along with the "bounders".
One of the mysteries is, who is Esther's father?
Here is a possibility I thought of. Remember, just a faint glimmer. Hope I am wrong.
I am suggesting Mr. Skimpole who has a dozen children that he doesn't know who they are or where they are.
The more I ponder on Skimpole the more I dislike him.
If he is not Esthers father he may just represent the "Bad Father". Not only are there bad Mothers but also Fathers who don't give a hoot for their offspring.
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Well chapter 10 is so far my least favorite - not sure why - somehow it was not going anywhere only that Mr. Tulkinghorn, like a blood hound is sniffing the trail of a short lived lack of composure by Lady Dedlock when she saw the handwriting on a legal document.
I was not prepared for the wretched condition of Nemo - Guster, for all her benighted trials in life comes across as a sour human being who has become all her many privations. - the Snagsby's are a mess - the description of Mr. Snagsby made me think of Quilp in the current PBS Old Curiosity Shop.
We are given a character study of these characters with an overhanging creeping sensation that is foreboding with a strangle hold on us that will not be a quick snap of the neck. Up till chapter 10 it read all of a piece but with this chapter there is a change suggesting sinister things to come.
Little things, like Tulkinghorn walking past Krook's shop after he was escorted there by Snagsby and then he secretly doubles back when he is sure Snagsby has departed. And again, Tulkinghorn when he leaves his out-of-date but well kept, organized and well locked office home not informing his help where he is going nor when he will return. And then the drug worn and ravaged Nemo living in abject squallier seems even more sordid since, somehow he is known by Lady Dedlock, one of the most glamorously preserved woman in the story. This chapter puts you in mind of scurrying rats in a desiccant, trunk and limping toy choked attic.
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Wow, Barb, what a good, vivid, summing-up.
Tulkinghorn is very secretive. Babi quoted: “Everything that can have a lock has one; no key is visible." He deliberately loses Snagsby before going up to see Nemo, so he won't be seen or followed. And is he going there to satisfy his own curiosity, or could he have been commissioned by Lady Dedlock?
And what a squalid setup indeed. One shabby room, and no possessions but a few clothes and a pile of pawn tickets.
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"I am suggesting Mr. Skimpole who has a dozen children that he doesn't know who they are or where they are"
Wow, Jude, that's a thought! If you let your imagination go even further - how about they are all three Skimpole's children - John Jarndyce is collecting them as a gesture to Skimpole - philanthropist that he is. I'm sure Ada and Richard would not be pleased to learn they are related! ;)
No seriously, Skimpole is as good a candidate as any. I'm wondering why Esther has given up on the idea that John Jarndyce is her father.
Dickens convinced you that young Guppy is sincere in his love for Esther. I think this is a good example of Dickens' art...and his ability as mystery writer. Look how he has us picking out clues that convince us of one thing...or the other. Pat's mention of those 4 glasses of wine - indicate a very nervous young man, throwing down the wine to calm himself. This doesn't sound like a conniving fortune hunter, does it? One who needs to be clear-headed if he is to win her hand.
And yet we are left with the impression that he knows more about Esther than Esther knows about herself, as Rosemary points out. Just an impression, though - nothing factual. Dickens is being very careful here. On the one hand he tells us that this law clerk would have access to such information, as closely he works with the Jarndyce case. On the other, he makes it ever so clear that the only one who really knows the family secrets - Esther's background would be a family secret - is Tulkinghorn - and he is tighter than a nut. Doesn't even let clerks handle the locked papers. How would Mr. Guppy know anything about Esther? Unless someone else besides Tulkinghorn knows.
Barbara, I think that the implications are strong in Chapter X that Tulkinghorn knows more about Nemo's handwriting and its
importance to Lady Dedlock. The very fact that he doesn't want Mr. Snagsby to know he's going to see him indicates that this is visit that must be kept secret. Don't you wonder what he might have said to Nemo - if Nemo were able to speak?
"Murder in the offing. We've had four deaths so far. All of natural causes?" Help with this, Jonathan. Jog the memory - Neno appears to be dead - but was it murder? And who were the other three? Do you think Tom Jarndyce was murdered? Who else?
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My own personal conclusion re. Guppy and Esther is that while he may have admired
her in passing, he originally gave her no serious thought. BUT, when the portrait of
Lady Dedlock got him to thinking of certain possibilities, Esther suddenly became a
treasure to be adored. And having a touch of the romantic in him, he saw himself as
truly in love.
Don't forget, GUPPY was not alone on that visit; he had a friend with him and they were looking
for some amusement. And Londoners really are quite accustomed to going about in the
rain. As much as it rains there, they'd be severely limited if they didn't.
BARB, I noticed that as well. In fact,it seems to me as if these lawyers are so
very conscious of legal pitfalls, that they can hardly make a statement without first
assuring that no hearer can challenge it legally.
I have to take exception to the comparison of Mr. Snagsby to Quilp, BARB. I watched
that movie the other night, and IMO Snagsby is not at all like the monstrous Quilp.
JUDE, I heartily detest Skimpole, but I simply cannot imagine him as Esther's father.
No, I feel confidant that Dickens would insist on a nobler character as his beloved
Esther's father.
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What a fog Dickens has got us into. What endless incitement to speculation. And our imginations are up to it. Marvellous how Dickens establishes rapport with his readers. But how will he ever resolve all the questions in our minds. Oh,well, one can guess at his intentions. Perhaps Boythorn murders Skimpole. Drone meets busy bee. At the very least, Skimpole is sure to lose all his teeth.
Guppy, surely, is head over heels in love with Esther. Coincidence had him seeing her in Lady D's portrait. Is this author allowed the use of coincidence?
Tom Jarndyce's death makes it five. I had forgotten about him. First there was Esther's godmother's demise. Then the doll was put obsequiously away. After that Jenny's baby dies. And now Nemo has come to a sorry end. Perhaps no murder here, perhaps only an author's style.
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Babi the Quilp connection - only in looks not in character - you are so right on Quilp is a monster but it was him as a shop keeper that I was seeing the look and thought of Snagsby.
Jonathan I am not sure that this Nemo is dead - when I read it again, it sounds more like he is in a haze and stupor from Opium. But we do have the Ghost, the wife of Charles I that can be added to the list.
I do not see Mr. Tulkinghorn having advanced suspicion of a worked out theory only, that something was ajar when Lady Dedlock reacted so that, as a man who puts everything in its place and will use desk items to represents conflicting ideas till he settles on his next step I think this reaction by Lady Dedlock for him needed to be categorized and understood and so, he goes to nose it out -
So far from the story I am not getting a hint of murder in the offing and so I wonder at this point if the mystery murder y'all are talking about is the murder of a spirit - that actually was murdered a couple of hundred years ago. So far all I am seeing is many characters introduced - they all need an incident for us to see their characteristics - at this point I wonder why so many characters - it does follow what we realized earlier about so many scenes showing discombobulation so that many characters could be following that theme.
I am wondering if any of these secondary characters are shadow characters with similar characteristics to the main characters. Or what seems obvious they all allow another incident so that we can see another side or make a point of a characteristic of the main characters.
What I mean is take that whole bit with Mrs. Pardiggle - why - she was not a main character and she disappears with the next few chapters - she may be resurrected later in the story but we do not know and we seem content that she and the bricklayer were a side cul-de-sac. - so why - Well it does highlight for us the caring nature of Esther and we do have a glimpse at how she values Ada. Ada says little so we can only assume the feelings are reciprocated because they both together do what they can for the dead baby.
We can also compare the children of Mrs. Pardiggle to those of Mrs. Jellyby and see two ways of women affecting life beyond their homes. But again, Why - what has that to do with any of the main characters. Maybe it highlights how isolated, offering little philanthropy is Lady Dedlock but that is a stretch - maybe they offer a foil to the characteristics of Esther who was not admiring the lifestyle of either of these two women.
OK Guster I can see as an example of 'there for the grace of God' she could have been Esther except Esther had a Godmother and attended a boarding school - both girls are at a loss for parents.
How many of these secondary characters are simply allowing one character to interface with another and like messengers, they bring one to another as Snagsby brings Turkinghorn to Nemo or is it that these secondary characters move the story along.
Since Guppy has been mentioned in several chapters and has talked directly to Esther and John Jarndyce he must be a sorta main character but no sure how he fits the inner circle that is developing.
We have Richard related somehow to Lady Dedlock, who is legally represented by Turkinghorn, who is in the same profession as Guppy, who not only professed his love for Esther but also brings to our attention that he somehow knows Lady Dedlock as well as, Guppy's office represents Jarndyce and Jarndyce which includes Ada and Richard who are both living with Esther in the home of John Jarndyce - is John Jarndyce also part of the law case Jarndyce and Jarndyce? - and then the mysterious Nemo must be a main character since Lady Dedlock knows his handwriting and Turkinghorn thinks that his observing that is important -
In Bleak House we have had Skimpole and visiting Boythorn, of course Guppy [he sure gets around] in addition there was Mrs. Pardiggle however, I do not see her as a main character. For a bit with Esther's inquiring after Boythorn I thoght he was going to be added to the main circle but it appears he too has faded into the pages of the story.
So far I think Dickens has circled up the wagons as to who is not a pawn - we seem to have at least two houses and two queens but so far no one has stood out as the king - there is much mystery but that to me is how Dickens gets us to turn the page and ask what is next. The greatest mystery seems to be surrounding Nemo and Turkinghorn because of his buttoned up ways - he is as circumvent and evasive as Guppy is crassly effusive.
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I’m with the rest of you about Guppy. He knows something more about Esther, or he’s speculating about her future. And he would like to be in it. Is he scheming?
Guppy is not old enough to be her father. Hence, of no interest to her.
Interesting point, Jonathan. And romance is not for her right now, as she has more important things to discern. But she is interested in romance, and love, particularly that of Ada and Richard.
For a bit with Esther's inquiring after Boythorn I thoght he was going to be added to the main circle but it appears he too has faded into the pages of the story.
Barb, I’m not so sure about that. I was wondering if there were a bit of mystery about Mr. Boythorn. Who was the lady love that he lost before he ever had her? And he is also in battle with Sir Dedlock, over a gate, a path. We’ll probably see more of him, but I hope only in small doses. He does come on strong.
Jude, I do hope you’re wrong about Skimpole possibly being Esther’s father. A detestible man, even though the people at Bleak House seem to find him attractive.
Rosemary, I have the PBS DVD of Bleak House – 15 episodes, with Gillian Anderson. Am tempted to start watching.
I'm findinfg the reply section very weird here It keeps bouncing around and I can't see what I'm typing. I did not have this trouble with latin this morning.
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Pedln, it sounds to me like you've inadvertantly clicked the "compatability" box - way up at the top of your screen on the right - a little box that looks like a torn piece of paper. Try clicking it to see if that helps. You can't do it when you're in the middle of a post, though.
Didn't you lend me the DVD set years ago? And I kept it for nearly two years before giving it back to you? (sorry about that) If the same, I don't think I watched it because none of what I'm reading seems at all familiar. But that really doesn't mean anything... :D Did you ever watch it before now?
During the prediscussion, kidsal brought us this great interactive map of the area we're talking about. I'm amazed that Tulkinghorn's sumptuously furnished home is so near to Krooks, aren't you? Walking distance. If you click on this map, look up at Oxford Street - and before it comes to Holburn you'll see Bloomsbury. Look down from there and you'll see Lincoln Inn Fields , where Tulkinghorn lives and then a block or two to the right of the Fields, you'll see Chancery Lane where Krooks is located. Am I reading the map right, Rosemary? Click the yellow buttons on the map and you'll see text describing the area. Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
In Chapter X we read of Tulkinghorn's home - in this same installment there are some other references we might consider- before moving on to the 4th Instalment tomorrow -
These are all found in Chapter VIII
1. A Jarndyce in an evil hour made a great fortune and will.
2. Everybody in this will EXCEPT ONE MAN knows what's in the will.
3. John Jarndyce tells Esther of a house in London - a property of "ours"
4. The house in London is what Bleak House used to be - dilapidated.
Aren't those fascinating comments? They read like a riddle, don't they? Especially the second one...
I can't wait for the next instalment!
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I don't want to leave this section without commenting further on Guster. Dickens says of her:
"...who, although she was farmed or contracted for, during her growing time, by an amiable benefactor of his species resident at Tooting, and cannot have failed to have been developed under the most favourable circumstances, 'has fits'--which the parish can't account for."
This seems a little obscure, but a footnote says there was an orphanage farm at Tooting. Parishes paid a small fee for boarding orphans. It was notorious for maltreatment, overcrowding, and lack of food and sanitation. Eventually the deaths of 150 children in a cholera outbreak led to criminal charges against the "amiable benefactor".
So Guster has seizures, and we learn a few pages later that her hair doesn't grow. She has been damaged by mistreatment and malnutrition.
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I can't wait for the next instalment!
Dickens knew a thing or two about cliffhangers. It's a good thing we don't have to wait a whole month to find out more about Nemo.
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There seems to be quite a bit of that juxtaposition in the London streets,JOANP. I
get the impression that the homes/offices of the well-to-do are on the quiet squares
or major streets. But down every alley there may be old, dark, dreary apartments or
even hovels.
I was suspicious about Guster's upbringing as soon as I saw the phrase "farmed or
contracted for", PAT. It didn't occur to me there was a real 'Tooting'. Love learning
that sort of background.
I am enjoying this so much. I'm getting so much more from book than when I first read
it years ago. In fact, it has inspired me to pick up and start re-reading "Tale of Two Cities".
I'm enjoying that even more, also.
So, today we start the next installment! And this first chapter continues the incident of the
death of the mysterious Nemo, who has died of an overdose of opium.
Opium is freely available during this period. One can purchase it from any physician. And like many another who succumbs to narcotics, we discover that the deceased believed he could control his intake. He started out keeping a careful record of how much and how often he used the opium until, of course, he reached the point where he no longer had the judgment to care.
Now comes the inquest! The beadle, I learned, in those days, was a messenger of the court. He apparently made all arrangements, summoned the official parties, notified the appropriate people, and generally oversaw the 'due process’. Nowadays, a beadle is a church official, an usher, and charged with
keeping order during services. So apparently Dickens was correct in picturing this as an outdated office.
But tradition was everything!
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Well I'll be snookered - Jonathan you were right! Last thing in the world I expected was the death of Nemo who we barely knew but the story kept him like a dark horse ready to come into the light - never in this world did I expect he was going to enter more fully into the story as a corpse.
What really gets me, like many of you I thought I knew something about this story having seen it a few years back on TV - not only have I forgotten most of it - certainly I did not pick up the nuances that reading this story offers nor the wonderful writer that is Dickens - I also researched and learned the original series was 16 hours and the US only purchased 10 hours and from that many a PBS station truncated it further to 8 hours - that is half the original - so no wonder - like seeing the newest PBS version of Old Curiosity Shop in one night as compared to the older one that was shown over several nights.
Well this is teaching me that to see a book on TV or in the movie is no replacement for reading it - one more reason to not have cable - I get all I want from the basic channels plus we have 4 channels of PBS one being in Spanish. I've been down to watching TV 3 days a week except for NewWeek which I switch on every evening for my news and now that this Book has shown me the glories I can find in the written and ultimately spoken word more of my time will be with a book in my hand.
Back to Bleak House - I smiled at how no one wanted the others to see their curiosity about what was in that suitcase and they all wanted someone else to do the bidding to verifying he was dead and find evidence to who he was. Reminds me of a bunch of kids - you do it - no, you do it - and then they wait and stare and it starts again - then they say let's get Mikey or some small kid to do it - till finally someone just guts up and does it.
Seems to me even when I was a kid before WWII medicine for kids included Laudanum - I guess when there are no meds to cure a problem at least it can be masked with either whiskey or drugs.
Yes, Babi - poor Guster - I say it again, she has become as the Dickens labeled "her many privations." I could not help compare her childhood to Esther's - Esther may not have had the best of worlds but far different than Guster. Interesting how easily we forget - we had a friend who served in WWII in the underwater demolition group that after the war became the Navy Seals and yet, he had small epileptic fits that grew worse as he aged. In civilian life he had to hide his affliction or he would not have been accepted in his job - his problem was a source of embarrassment kept hidden by him and his family till around the late 1980s. That was only 25 to 30 years ago.
Well back to finish the chapter - I guess one of the mysteries will be who is Nemo, where did he come from, where is his family, why was he in this single room living on Opium?
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I'm enjoying it too, Babi - reading Dickens' words - which surely are missed in the filmed versions, Barbara. I mean, how do you portray Tulkinghorn in the room of the deceased, taking it all in, looking for every bit of information he can see in the dim light of the candle - and allowing the conclusion that there was nothing of importance to be found? We know, because Dickens lets us know - that he didn't miss that portmanteau. It was right there by his own feet! The unknown dead man had only this small travel bag with him. He must have left wherever he was before in a hurry. I'll even bet Tulkinghorn was able to discern whether or not it was a bag of quality.There was nothing else of note in the room - except that bag.
Did Dickens' readers conclude that the pawn tickets and the newspaper scraps were irrelevant to the story? Did you? Do you think Tulkinghorn dismissed them as unimportant? The narrator describes the news scraps as referring to "Coroners' Inquests." Wasn't this odd? Really odd. Why would the deceased collect such articles?
So he died of an opium overdose. Was he murdered, did he intend to kill himself? It probably has nothing to do with it - but I remembered Skimpole, who as a physician, had trouble filling perscriptions accurately. Any number of things could have happened to poor Nemo. I don't believe he killed himself...but then again, why would anyone want to kill him?
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At the begginning of Capt.12 Dickens does with sunshine what he did with fog in former chapters. He uses his "poet self" for a few paragraphs and it is beautiful:
"The clear, cold sunshine glances into the brittle woods and approvingly beholds the sharp wind scattering the leaves and drying the moss.......It looks in at the windows and touches he ancesral portraits with bars and patches of brightness never contemplated by the painters. Athwart the picture of my Lady, over the great chimney piece, it throws a broad
bend-sinister of light that strikes down crookedly into the hearth and seems to rend it."
The above paragraph leads us into the inner world of Lady Leicester. She is obviously an important figure in the story.
Dickens in the next few paragraphs shows how very depressed she is especially by capitalizing the words "Grand Despair" and "Boredom". he wants to make sure we know what is wrong with her but he does'nt really say why she is in such a state.
"Weariness of soul lies before her as it lies behind her".
Dickens could be a forerunner of Freud with his sensitivity to mood and the inner workings of people ; rich and poor alike.
The maturity Dickens has acheived in his life when writing Bleak House makes it a contender for one of the worlds great books . Here he reaches the same depths that Dostoyevsky reached in his 19th century works.
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Great ideas from all of you. Many helpful insights which I find a great help in beginning to appreciate Dickens' art.
Isn't Guster a good example of someone showing all the symptoms of PTSD?
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I thought for sure either Krook or Turkinghorn would make a grab for the pawn tickets - Your ahead of Me Jude just giving us a few attractions that grab the romantic in us and our love of well placed words - Now I will have to get into the rest of 11 and read 12.
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The scene in Nemo's room has a lot to comment on. First, the physical drama. Tulkinghorn arrives, sees Nemo lying inert on the bed, and his candle goes out, leaving him in darkness. (If we were the original readers, leaving us in darkness for a whole month.) A light is brought. Amid the sordid scene we see the staring eyes of Nemo, mirrored by the staring eyes of the shutters. The shutter eyes close. Nemo's do not. He is dead.
There are mysteries in what follows. Krook tells Tulkinghorn to call for Miss Flite to get a doctor. While Tulkinghorn is on the landing, "Krook follows him with his eyes, and, while he is calling, finds opportunity to steal to the old portmanteau, and steal back again." Did he take something?
Miss Flite comes back with a doctor, who says Nemo is dead. At this point, a "dark young man , on the other side of the bed" says he knows Nemo, has sold him opium. Who is he, and how did he get here so opportunely? He is a surgeon, but he didn't come with the doctor, who doesn't know him.
Tulkinghorn makes sure the search of Nemo's belongings is made in an orderly way. I'm sure he didn't miss the significance of the tickets and clippings; he never misses a trick. The tickets could be just evidence of Nemo's desperation, selling everything he has, but checking what was pawned could give evidence of Nemo's identity. The clippings will surely turn out to be significant in some way.
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While Tulkinghorn is on the landing, "Krook follows him with his eyes, and, while he is calling, finds opportunity to steal to the old portmanteau, and steal back again." Did he take something?
Yes! I wondered the same thing, Pat! I think he did take something out of the suitcase.
The young surgeon comments about Nemo, “I recollect once thinking there was something in is manner, uncouth as it was, that denoted a fall in life.”
That makes sense to me. A person who had lived all his life as Nemo did during his last few months would be unlikely to be able to write well.
Then Lady Dedlock comments to Mr. Tulkinghorn, “I can’t imagine what association I had, with a hand like that; but I surely had some.” She is referring to the handwriting of Nemo. How did they know each other? It must have been before his fall in life.
I am not sure which left me feeling sadder --- Nemo’s state of living and his death or the testimony and actions of Jo about Nemo. “He wos wery good to me, he wos!”
On a much lighter note, this comment about Sir Leicester was laugh-out-loud funny: “Sir Leicester is generally in a complacent state, and rarely bored. When he has nothing else to do, he can always contemplate his own greatness.”
Now to read Chapter 13…
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I missed that, Pat...Krook, the acquisitive Krook, of course he had time to take something - but what? We know he didn't take the pawn tickets though.
The dark young doctor who appeared out of nowhere. I assumed that he came in with the older doctor summoned by Miss Flite. But now, after reading it again, I see the older doctor asking the younger if he's in the "maydickle" professoin - which he wouldn't have done that if he knew the man, would he?
The young man has been selling opium to Nemo. I wonder why he didn't get called to the hearing about that. Or did he? I forget.
What I didn't forget - at the end of chapter XIII that same young doctor shows up for dinner at Bleak House! Doesn't that give us something to think about?
Laura, it fits, doesn't it? At least Dickens is making it seem to fit. This wild looking, unkempt man has undergone a fall in life. Now fast forward to the burial - the body of the dead man - "in brighter days the now-extinguished fire within him ever burned for one woman who held him in her heart, where is she, while these ashes are above the ground..."
What a way to segue into the Dedlock household in Chesney Wold...and the ever-bored Lady Dedlock.
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Sorry - I have been keeping up with the reading (by reading a chapter a day before 6am!) but life has been ultra-hectic here over the past few weeks - Anna is involved in so many concerts and competitions just now, plus her Highers/AS Levels, and various other things have been on the go; I think I find all this rushing around far more stressful than I would have done 10 years ago, but I'm not sure if that is age or just the fact that I've got used to my peaceful little life!
Anyway:
Jonathan: "without prejudice" is something that lawyers put at the top of letters if they don't want them to be referred to in court. For example, if you are being sued, and you want to try to stop the case going to court (which is of course very expensive), you might offer a sum of money to the other side to make them settle. BUT is they refuse that offer, and insist on taking you to court, you do not want them to bring your letter out in court, because it could be taken as a sign that you think you were in the wrong. Insurance companies' lawyers do it all the time - "we will offer you £10,000 to settle now - without prejudice". This puts the other person on the back foot, as if they take the money, they will always think that they might have done better in court, but if they don't take it, and they go into court, they might not only get nothing, but end up having to pay both sides' horrendous legal costs (traditionally, the loser in court pays a large part of everyone's costs). Also, if you proceed to court and win, but are awarded less than the offer that was made earlier, you can be stung for the other side's costs from the date on which the first offer was made - because you should have taken it and saved everyone's time and money. Insurance companies are geniuses at working the system like this.
Re the map - I had a look at it. I think in Dickens' time things were obviously very different - abject squalor existed cheek by jowl with affluence. Even in my childhood, large parts of London were slums - but nowadays just about anywhere within easy reach of the centre has been yuppified and is horribly expensive. The kind of people who would have lived in the slums in even the 1960s/70s now live in the outer suburbs, which in my childhood were v respectable, but have now become quite dreadful in some cases. Many of them were moved out by councils eager to sell off valuable sites. My own cousin used to live in a nice council flat in Camberwell, a part of London that my mother would almost have died rather than live in - the council persuaded them to accept a flat outside London, so that the block (it was a solid 1950s building, not a high rise monstrosity) could be redeveloped and sold off. Camberwell, like Brixton, Dalston, Hackney, Islington, etc has become very des res and expensive owing simply to its proximity to the centre.
So yes, Tulkinghorn could have lived in a very smart house just walking distance from a slum - and of course in those days slums were a lot worse than they are now, although maybe not as threatening, I don't know.
And there are still parts of inner London that are very poor indeed. In the 1980s I worked in the Elephant & Castle - only 10 miles from the suburb in which I grew up - and I had honestly never seen such poverty in this country. In the morning there were long queues of people waiting for their benefits, some of them just stood there in their carpet slippers. I had clients who came to ask me about buying their council flats - the 'right to buy' was a big thing back them - and when I worked out what it would cost them to repay very small loans (if you had lived in the property for a long time, you bought it at a massive discount - people who did this then sold the flats on at massive profits just 3 years later, it was an appalling policy and decimated London's public housing stock) - they were horrified, as they could hardly afford to pay their utility bills. Some people made a lot of quick profit at that time, but others simply could not afford to do so; they could hardly afford to live.
Rosemary
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Look at the inquest. The coroner’s inquest had a very familiar sound. On the frontier in America, inquests were generally held in saloons, where there was ample room and seating.
The bar was generally closed for the proceedings, tho'. At 'Nemo's' inquest, the officials enjoyed
a beer and business was very good indeed with the place full of curious neighbors.
I loved this glimpse of the neighborhood life, which has changed not at all!
“Mrs. Perkins, who has not been for some weeks on speaking terms with Mrs. Piper, in consequence of an unpleasantness originating in young Perkins having ‘fetched’ young Pipe “a crack’, renews her friendly intercourse on this auspicious occasion.”
Dickens makes it so easy to identify with the various characters and personalities. It makes
the events so real and present for us.
And what about Jo and his mantra for all occasions. "I don't know nothin!'" Which, sadly, is pretty much the case.
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Re beadles - they are not only in church:
http://thebeadlesoflondon.com/TheModernBeadle.aspx
http://www.londonlives.org/static/Policing.jsp#toc7
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Now why can't Dickens write as clearly as that? Thanks, Rosemary, for walking us through that legal maze. Applying it in Guppy's case makes his proposal even more interesting. What's he trying to foresee? That Esther may someday sue him for breach of promise?
About the 'dark young doctor.' AsJoan puts it: the man who also came to dinner. And Pat asks: Who is he, and how did he get here so opportunely (at Nemo's deathbed)?
One more secondary character? I liked Barbara's comments about all these people the author brings into his tale. To provide another incident. Another point of view. To serve as a foil to a main character. It's all amazingly clever. But it's soon obvious that Nemo is someone of significance. Jo's only friend. Lady Dedlock's concern. Tulkinghorn's great curiousity. Even Sir Leceister wonders why Lady D is so upset.
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OH Jonathan...those characters! And now we have some new ones that are sure to play a part. I'm counting Nemo of course. Since he shows up at Bleak House at the end of this instalment, we probably must include the dark doctor...does dark indicate an ominous presence? Blond, light, virtuous, beautiful? And little Jo...though he was dismissed by the Coroner because he is poor, uneducated, unimportant to no one. I'm betting that Tulkinghorn will not forget this boy who seems to be the only one Nemo talked to. The boy says as much. He used to talk to him all the time, he says - and "he wos wery good to him, he wos." What does this tell us about Mr. Nemo?
Once I visited one of Dickens' London homes - the one on Doughty St. where he lived when first married with first child. There was a huge painting there - "Dickens' Dream" teeming with charcters from many of his works. - I think how difficult it would be for Dickens to keep all of these characters straight as he wrote - and don't forget he was writing with those 10 children of his own underfoot!
Here's the painting that stays with me as I read Bleak House -
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Dickens_dream.jpg)
"Dickens' Dream ~ painted by RW Buss - the artist who illustrated Pickwick Papers
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Can't forget words of thanks to you, Rosemary - keeping up with your busy schedule - and your daughters' - and helping us out with an understanding of these references to British streets and courts.
My son lives in central London until next week - in what was once public housing. Now for quite a large sum, folks are buying apartments in the housing. My son is renting this apartment from a young man who bought one of these apartments to rent out. What interests me is that some of the apartments are still public housing, others are privately owned and rented at premium prices because of their location. They distinguish whch apartment is public, which private - by painting the doors a different color. The public are always green.
This weekend he'll be moving west - to Portabello Rd. His new apartment looks out on the famous weekend market. He's really thrilled about the move.
Loved the links describing the "beadle." I've come across the term in other reading but never fully understood their function. From one of the links Rosemary put up, I read -
"In Westminster, beadles were appointed by the Court of Burgesses and held similar responsibilities. They were expected to patrol the streets, drive out vagrants and beggars, and supervise the watch."
Surely then, this beadle has seen the boy, Jo - who seems to have lived off the street - with no fixed address. Did he look the other way? There must have been quite a few vagrants and beggars at this time.
So Mr. Tulkinghorn goes right from London out to Chesney Wold - to bring word of the death of the man whose handwriting Lady Dedlock reacted so violently? Really? Is this the only reason he's made the trip? Does the death of the unnamed man seem to warrant the attention of each of them? Unless...what?
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I'm so glad to have a working computer again: I've spent the last hour catching up with all your comments. So a few reactions:
Jonathan: " With a mother who is self-sufficient in her own house says they [Gupp y and family]are not of the poor peasant class however, the middle class is a fairly new phenomenon and so his driving, striving, desire to succeed reminds me of the masculine version of Esther who wants to be liked and succeed by being the same source of help and assistance to others as Guppy."
I think that's a very interesting observation. Esther's class position interests me, too. She is neither upper or lower, and is treated, and treats herself as somewhere between an equal and a servant to Jarndice and the young people. She is likeable (loveable, even) but her male equivelant, Guppy, is somehow despicable and laughable. Is this a reflection of the attitudes toward the emerging middle class in Dickens' day?
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Barb: I like your point that the beginnings and ends of chapters send us somewhere new. I found the switch between Chesney Wold and Bleak house confusing, too, and wonder what Dickens is doing with presenting us with these two houses.Especially since Bleak house isn't, and Chesney Wold is! (Bleak,that is). What other comparisons do we see?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illguppydesolation.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illguppydesolation.jpg)
Mr. Guppy's Desolation
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INSTALMENT
IV
V |
DATE of PUBLICATION
June 1852
July 1852 |
CHAPTERS
11-13
14-16 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.1-5
Mar.6-10 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illfamilyportraits.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illfamilyportraits.jpg)
The Family Portraits
at Bayham Badger's
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Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter XI
1. Why are we introduced to a character who has just died, yet seems to be of importance to Mr. Tulkinghorn?
Do you have any ideas about his possible role in the story?
2. Have you ever attended an inquest? Of course, you will have read about many of them.
Was Mrs. Piper’s testimony relevant? And why was Jo’s testimony unacceptable?
3. What does Jo’s testimony reveal about the life of a homeless orphan?
4. What does Mr. Snagsby’s interview with Jo reveal about him.
5 What further prejudices, either Dickensian or English, do you find in this section? (Hint: ‘Caffre’ apparently is a corruption of Kaffir.)
6. What is your first impression of Lady Dedlock?
7. Having met Mlle. Hortense, what do you think of her? What do you expect from someone like her?
Chapter XII
8. What did you think of Dickens’ dissertation on the fashionable ‘dandyism’ of the day? Does any of it remind you of attitudes today?
9. What is Mr. Tulkinghorn’s status at Chesney Wold? What does it say about his relationship with the present Lord?
10. What changes in the relationship of Mr. Tulkinghorn and Lady Dedlock on the occasion of this visit? What do you think it portends for the future?
Chapter XIII
11. What are we learning about Richard Carstone’s character?
12. What do you think of the boisterous Mr. Boythorn? Do you like him? Dislike him? Why?
13. Esther appears at a disadvantage here, in coping with Mr. Guppy. Is this typical for a young lady of her times, or is it the result of her personal history? How does it compare with the way a modern young woman would have handled the situation?
14. Share your impression of Mr. and Mrs. Badger. Have you ever known any couple like this? Could you even have imagined a couple like this?
15. Can you compare Mr. Jarndyce’s attitude toward his wards with Sir Leicester Dedlock’s attitude toward his dependents?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Oh, thank you for those links, ROSEMARY. None of my research turned up a current
official 'beadle'. Event coordinators now, eh? Even the second link discussion of
beadles refers to them in the past tense, with the information gained from 'records'.
I'm glad you made that point, JOANK. I've wondered which of the houses Dickens really
meant when he chose the title "Bleak House". But that's pure Dickens, too. Tantalize
his readers, make us think!
We get some more insights into the attitudes of the times. What do you make of this?
The dead man’s burial place is a 'beastly scrap of ground’. “...which a Turk would reject as a savage abomination, and a Caffre would shudder at.” It would appear that Turks are regarded as savages, and Kaffirs (Caffres) as hardened in their sensibilities.
Is this another strong cue to the upper class attitudes of the times? Lord Dedlock says: “If I go further, and observe that I cannot really conceive how any right of mine can be a minor point, I speak not so much in reference to myself as to the family position I have it in charge to maintain.”
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"The dead man’s burial place is a 'beastly scrap of ground’. “...which a Turk would reject as a savage abomination, and a Caffre would shudder at.”
Babi - I'm reading the Norton's Critical edition of the book - heavily footnoted - and had planned to mention these footnotes today.
There's a note defining a Caffre as "a South African native of the Bantu family." I think that Nemo's burial plot is such that the most primitive peoples would not consider it. He's only buried one - two feet deep. I'm wondering if Dickens will use that bit of information in later chapters...
There are so many footnotes that you may not be aware of - if your book or etext does not have such information. I'll give you an example which shows how much Dickens has put into his writing which may not be obvious without these notes.
From the same paragraph describing Nemo's burial plot -
"...they lower our dear brother down a foot or two, sow him in corruption, to be raised in corruption (6);an avenging ghost at many a sick bedside; a shameful testimony to future ages, how civilization and barbarism walked this beautiful island together."
(6)Cf. I Corinthians 15-42: "So also in the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, is is raised in incorruption."
My copy has Dickens misquoting Corinthians...to be raised "in corruption." Did he do it on purpose, or is this a printer error. There's a big difference...
You don't suppose that Nemo will be raised up - dug up from this shallow grave in the same state of corruption he was buried, do you?
This whole chapter is loaded with footnoted quotes from the Book of Common Prayer, gospel of St. Matthew, Genesis, Psalms, MacBeth, Midsummer Night's Dream... I can't begin to imagine how much time he put into research for this book.
Just thought you should know...
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"The dead man’s burial place is a 'beastly scrap of ground’. “...which a Turk would reject as a savage abomination, and a Caffre would shudder at.”
Babi - I'm reading the Norton's Critical edition of the book - heavily footnoted - and had planned to mention these footnotes today.
There's a note defining a Caffre as "a South African native of the Bantu family." I think that Nemo's burial plot is such that the most primitive peoples would not consider it. He's only buried one - two feet deep. I'm wondering if Dickens will use that bit of information in later chapters...
My note says: Variant of Kaffir, a southern African Bantu tribe; here meaning "infidel."
From Dictionary.com
in·fi·del
noun
1.
Religion
a. a person who does not accept a particular faith, especially Christianity.
b. (in Christian use) an unbeliever, especially a Muslim.
c. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.
I am not sure if an unbeliever or a Muslim is meant here. I guess it doesn't really matter. The point is that the burial place was unfit for anyone.
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Speaking of footnotes and class distinctions, I was interested in another footnote in my book regarding the position of the dark young surgeon who mysteriously appears at Nemo’s bedside:
As a surgeon, this doctor treated bodily ills and injuries. Because surgeons performed a form of manual labor, they ranked below physicians.
From another earlier footnote:
Within the medical profession, one of the traditional four professions in Britain, physicians were the most prestigiously ranked. They treated mainly internal disorders and prescribed various types of “physic,” as Skimpole had been trained to do.
Contemplating these footnotes in conjunction with comments made recently in the discussion, I find myself pondering two things.
Esther, being of neither upper nor lower class, would be a good match, society-wise, for the dark young surgeon, whose name we don’t know yet. Chapter 13 definitely included some of the romance promised in the book! I’m anxious to see what kind of relationship develops between Esther and the dark young surgeon.
On a different note, one of unsolved mysteries, why would the dark young surgeon have been selling opium to Nemo in the first place? It seems from the descriptions in the footnotes that another doctor, a physician, should have been doing that. Hmmm…..
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This morning some doggerel came to mind as I pondered yet another mystery:
Oh, poor Guppy
Loves like a puppy.
His suite rejected
His motives suspected.
Who, on Esther's hand
Will put the wedding band?
Sorry for being silly but sometimes I must. The mystery I suggest interests me. As each young man appears in the story I wonder will he be the one to woo the lady succesfully?
Usually Dickens ties up his books with a pretty bow so a beau for Esther is inevetible.
(I promise to be more serious in my next post.)
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Jude: "Usually Dickens ties up his books with a pretty bow so a beau for Esther is inevetible".
I hope you're right. I have an awful feeling she'll be left taking care of everyone else, and being grateful for the chance to do it.
"(I promise to be more serious in my next post.)" Please don't be. I love your little poem!
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I agree, JoanK - and I think Dickens would like it too! He seems to be having a good time with his Guppy character. Is this comic relief? It sisn't serious, or is it? We seem to go from dark to light to comic in each instalment.
What do you make of Guppy? What's going on with his hair, plasterd down like that? Does he think that Eshter would like it that way. Turning up at the theatre and staring at her is one thing...but he's turning up every night - and standing outside her window. Obviously this isn't going over too big with Esther. I'd call it stalking. Why didn't she tell her Guardian?
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" Why didn't she tell her Guardian?"Partly because she doesn't want to get Guppy into trouble. But also because this would cause people to have to do something for her (of which she feels she's not worthy) instead of her doing something for someone else. GRRRR.(Sorry, but Dickens' portrayal of Esther is getting on my nerves!)
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Joan, I agree. So far, Esther and Ada are both a bit wet.
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JOAN, do share some more of those Biblical quotes. I missed them, or didn't give
them a second thought. I think the writers of that day were much more likely to
quote scripture or refer to it. Attitudes toward religion were quite conventional
in those days and most readers would have found the references entirely appropriate.
Good catch, LAURA. I was struck by Esther's casual--- in passing--- of no special
importance, of course----of the dark young surgeon. Much too casual, IMO. I
think Esther is taken with him.
Ah, me, GUPPY. By their standards, Guppy would not have been stalking. He was
being the love-sick swain in the romantic tradition of the day. I'm sure he
thought he was impressing Esther with his devotion. And appealing to her tender
nature. He wouldn't be the first, or last, man in pursuit of a girl but without a clue.
Have you noticed how Dickens conveys the mood of pending events? In his
description of Chesney Wold, he describes Lady Dedlock’s portrait. “Athwart the picture of
my Lady, over the great chimney-piece, it [the sunshine] throws a broad bend-sinister of light that strikes down crookedly into the hearth, and seems to rend it.”
Is there any doubt that grief is coming to Lady Dedlock?
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Don't forget that in heraldry the bend sinister is supposedly a mark of illegitimacy.
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Wow Pat - well spotted! I'd never have picked that one up.
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"So far, Esther and Ada are both a bit wet" :D
I've been wondering if this reticence was a sign of a lady in Dickens' time. I mean, is Dickens portraying these two as virtuous? We're talking about the mid nineteenth century. Do you get the idea that Esther is smarter than she lets on - that she knows when to hold her tongue, and when to speak up - in other words, how to get her way? Sometimes I think so, but at other times, I sense her surprise that her opinion is taken seriously. Maybe this character will grow in the course of the novel - heaven knows, we have quite a way to go yet - there's plenty of time for Esther to come into her own. Not too much is known about Ada yet - except she is so taken with Richard - who is also a bit "wet" in my estimation.
PatH - thanks for the translation - the bend sinister a mark of illegitimacy. I'm wondering to whom the mark applies? Lady Dedlock? or...
Babi, I'll bring a few of the biblical quotes here...and leave the Shakespeare behind. Where did Dickens get this rich literary - and Biblical background? I stand in awe -
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Keep us smiling, Jude. Bring on your happy jingles. 'Bit wet', too, offers some relief in perusing this, as Lady D puts it, 'chamber of horrors.' They have served to relieve her boredom however.
Very interesting, Jude, that you should mention Dostoyevsky. Dickens is murky enough to allow the comparison. I'll have to be convinced. At this point I feel that we're getting a lot of English eccentricity and English gothic rather than Russian psycholigical abnormalities.
Getting back to 'bit wet', don't you think, Rosemary, that represents sanity in Dickens' crazy world? I'm not sure, it applies to Esther. She is anything but casual, as Babi suggests. She is on her own very high moral plateau. I think Dickens is being kind to her in giving her such an ardent lover as Guppy. She is a bit hard to love. Very useful on the other hand. And cuts through any cobweb. Perhaps it will be her role to bring an end to the Jarndyce and Jarndyce 'cause'. Strang that she should reject love.
Could surgeons prescribe opium? Good point Laura. Perhaps in setting up another link between characters, Dickens outsmarted himself.
It seems to me I remember reading about an early romantic infatuation in Dickens life. Wasn't it also an incident. a character who shows up in Little Dorrit? A faded beauty shows up, who had rejected a lover years earlier. There must be a bit of Dickens in everything he wrote.
Spare us the scriptures, Dickens. This prophesy that the dead will come back to haunt the guilty is so heathenish. Or is he simply saying that we will hear more of Nemo?
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Just read your post, JoanP. Of course, help us with these scriptural allusions. I was just kidding, not suggesting that Dickens, like the Devil, quoted scripture, to sell his books.
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Footnote information from passages in Chapter XI Our Dear Brother:
"Then the active and intelligent, who has got into the moring papers as such, comes with his pauper company to Mr. Krook's, and bears off the body of our dear brother departed." 4
4 in the Book of Common Prayer: "Foreasmuch as it hath pleased Almighty God...to take unto himslf the soul of our dear brother here departed, we therefore commit his body to the ground."
"Though a rejected witness who "can't exactly say " what will be done to him in greater hands than men's, thou are not quite in outer darkness."8
Footnote information from passages in Chapter XII On the Watch:
8 Matthew 22:13 "Then said the king to his servants, Bind him hand and foot, and ...cast him into outer darkness."
It has also found out that they will entertain a brilliant and distinguished circle of the elite of the beau monde (th fashional intelligence is weak in English, but a giant refreshed 1 in French), at the ancient and hospitable family seat in Lincolnshire."
1Psalms 78:66: So the Lord awaked as one out of sleep: and like a giant refreshed with wine."
There's another reference to Nimrod here - which may or may not have bearing in the story later on...
This one is for you, Jonathan-
Remember Mrs. Snagsby's propensity for not getting names right? She mistakenly called Nemo, "Nimrod"? Well here in Chapter XII Dickens writes:
"...the entire collection of faces that have come to pass a January week or two at Chesney Wold and which the fashionable intelligence, a mighty hunter before the Lord, 1, hunts with a keen scent for their breaking cover at the Court of St. James...."
1 Nimrod. See Genesis 10:8-9
"And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD"
Perhaps it is just a coincidence that Mrs. Snagsby calls Nemo, Nimrod - Do you think it's worth keeping in mind - that Nemo/Nimrod was a mighty hunter "with a keen scent" - on the trail for something that would eventually get him killed?
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The presence of so many quotations, some of them cleverly changed, tells us something about Dickens' readers. He wouldn't have put them in unless he expected at least some of his audience to recognize them.
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PatH
Thank you for informing us that "Bend-sinister" means illegitimate!
That solves one mystery (At least for me).
When I quoted that sentence :
Athwart the picture of my Lady,over the great chimney. it throws a broad BENT-SINISTER of light that strikes down crookedly into the hearth and seems to rend it."
I knew it had a double or triple meaning. Dickens is ostensibly talking of the sunlight but he tells us that when we become ENLIGHTENED we will see the HEARTH RENT . This can only mean that the home will be broken because of the illegitimate child of Lady Dedlock.
So, if Esther is Lady Dedlocks daughter, will she become wealthy?
And here is the last of my silly verses:
Note: Shvester is Yiddish for sister. Couldn't find another rhyme for Esther.
An orphan child is Esther
She has no shvester.
Lady D. is her mother.
It can't be another!
Dickens threw us a bone.
Still, her Father is unknown.
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I hope it isn't really the last, Jude. :)
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Your verses are fun, Jude! Please throw them in as your mood strikes!
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Oooh yes Jude - no stopping now, they're great!
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Bravo!!
My knowledge of scripture being weak, I couldn't place any of the quotes above (I did get "bent sinister"). But I can tell that Dickens is quoting: the sound of it tells you it's the King James Bible.
((By the way, I always thought the music of the King James Version came from the 17th century English, until I learned a little Hebrew and read some of it in the original. The music is in the Hebrew!)
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Jude, you are really good. I hope you're keeping all these verses in one place, so we can go and read them all easily.
So Cousin Jarndyce is concerned that Esther may end up doing too much "caring." Is that why the young surgeon was invited to dinner?
Poor Richard, a sweet boy, but does he really want to be a "maydickle" person? Does he have the ability?
Yes, JOanP, you did borrow my Bleak House, but I think just for a year. I liked it when I saw it, but have forgotten just about everything from first watch, and this week saw only the 1st (of 15) episodes. Two thoughts -- how do people know what's going on if they haven't read the book, and "eeewww, I don't like Mr. Guppy."
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Jude, I love your clever rhymes. Keep them coming!
On Esther being "wet," I think she has convinced herself (surely because of her upbringing) that the only way she will be loved is if she nurtures everyone else. And she seems skilled in doing that. She nurses Peepy Jellyby, and seems to know what to do with the dead baby. She takes initiative and doesn't recoil from sickness or injury. I would say she is both skilled and couragous. A comparison of Esther Summerson and Anne Elliot of Jane Austen's "Persuasion" comes to mind.
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"Is Esther's behavior typical for a young lady of her times, or is it the result of her personal history?"
Marcie's post just reminded me of Esther's personal history - her childhood. Raised in an emtional vacuum, completely devoid of love and caring. Remember wondering what she would be like as an adult coming from such beginnings? I think we need to take that into consideration now.
And if her behavior is not typical for a young lady of her times - then I find myself asking - which of Dickens' ladies are typical? Do we need to sort them by class?
How about Ada Clare? Typical? Do you sometimes see her regarding Richard's lack of...oomph with alarm?. I can't think of another way to put it - but I'd like to see Ada "grow" in future chapters. What's wrong with Richard? Maybe he's spending too much time listening to Mr. Skimpole. Is Richard a typical young man of the time? Do Dickens' readers recognize him?
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Some interesting questions there, JOANP. You got me to thinking. Considering that
Esther's early childhood was full of recriminations and blame, I would think she
must have learned early that her opinion wasn't wanted. And she would have learned
to hold her tongue.
Still, she is very capable and intelligent. Look how well she manages a large
household. Servants, budget, accounts, personal tastes and preferences of all those
who live there. Today she would be earning good money as an administrator.
I think it likely that we will be hearing more of Nemo, Jonathan. And the guilty
are haunted by their own conscience if they have one at all. It's their memories of
the dead that haunt them, not the dead. As for referring to scripture, I doubt if
Dickens gave it a second thought. Religious references were quite the norm then.
Poetry was full of it. Look at Wordsworth, Tennyson, Rosetti...
Thanks so much for those quotes and references, JoanP. I recognized the familiar
phrases, but didn't give them a second thought. And think of all the biblical and
liturgical references we use, and hear, in ordinary conversation.
Have any thoughts on the questions suggested for this section? Pat posted them for
us up in the heading, as usual, bless her!
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JoanP, I don't know if Richard is typical of his times. His elders, Jarndyce and Kenge, seem to think that his upbringing, with its lack of postive male role models, has not shown him a need to assess himself or to even consider a career. Apparently he's still in "school boy" status.
Ada is kind of vapid, isn't she. Has she expressed any opinions or original thoughts? Esther certainly cares for her, but seems to treat her more like a little pet. Has she ever confided in Ada or talked to her about her background?
Esther spent six years at the school with the Misses Donnys, both learning and helping others to learn, and as she admits, the latter helped make the other students fond of her. I think she feels that she must do for others in order to be loved, never just for herself alone.
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I'm wondering if Dickens might be satirizing the education of the day when Esther reflects that Richard is very good with his drilled Latin verses (? --can't find the exact quote) but that he was never provided personal guidance by anyone--no individualized learning that helped to shape his character.
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I'm sure he is. And he says that while Richard was studying, no one ever studied him enough to find if there was anything he was good at or cared about. He doesn't seem to have had to be serious or take responsibility for anything, and he assumes that eventually the lawsuit will be settled and he'll be rich. (That's pretty optimistic, considering how it's going.)
Ada seems to be mostly sweet and pretty, and we don't really see what she's like.
Esther surely suffers from low self esteem. She could hardly help it, given her childhood. She claims not to be clever, though she shows a lot of competence. I suspect she has become unobtrusive as a sort of protective coloration.
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Thinking about it, Esther is very important to the structure of the book. She is kind of a center, with all these characters flying around. Without her holding things down, so to speak, thee book (and our thoughts) would be a jumble.
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Jude, that's inspired rhyming. Shvester (sister) is just perfect for Esther. She is trying so hard to live down those terrible words she got from her godmother: better if you had never been born. She's helpful to everyone. Lady Dedlock can't be her mother. They are too unlike.
I've got my bible out. In fact I went for it after reading about Miss Flyte's preoccupation with the Book of Revelations. She's looking for auguries, isn't she? Or omens? Like Mrs. Snagsby. She took a strange interest in Nemo. Saw something in him, that made him stand out. Got him the copying jobs. I can't get over the interlocking of everything in this book.
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Right on, JoanK. Esther is used by everyone, even as a mouthpiece for the author.
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What is Mr. Tulkinghorn’s status at Chesney Wold? What does it say about his relationship with the present Lord?
I can't tell whether Tulkinghorn's close relationship is with Sir Leicester or with his Lady. Yesterday I was doing a crossword puzzle - the clue was something like - "one kept as a retainor" - and the answer turned out to be "an attorney." Turkinghorn seems more than a retainor, doesn't he? He has his own room at the Dedlock home! He shares some sort of a secret with Lady Dedlock, but I can't tell whether his loyalties lie with her - or with Sir Leicster. He passes on the information regarding the death of the man whose handwriting the lady recognized - in a way that indicated they both knew the importance of this man...
but we leave them out in Chesney Wold begging the question -
"what each would give to know how much the other knows - all this is hidden for the time, in their own hearts."
The title Dickens gives to this chapter - "On the Watch" suggests to me, that Tulkinghorn is watching Lady Dedlock. I'm beginning to think that Tulkinghorn is a long-time friend of Sir Lecister's family - and that his primary interest is to make sure that this family is well represented.
"For the time being?" This indicates that we will hear more of their relationship in future installments, I think. Has Mr. Tulkinghorn emerged as a leading character in the plot?
What do we know of Lady Dedlock? Except for the fact that she is very bored and secretive too, don't you think? What was the meaning of her interest in the young maid, Rosa? Do you think the French maid Hortense has anything to worry about? Clearly she's jealous. Goodness, new characters! I thought we had met the full cast by now. How can we connect these two to Esther, JoanK? If we don't come up with some sort of connexion to Esther soon - you will get into "a jumble."
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JoanP, I agree with your assessment that Tulkinghorn is "a long-time friend of Sir Lecister's family - and that his primary interest is to make sure that this family is well represented." He's carrying out Sir Lecister's wishes in every detail (even though I get the impression that he might not agree with him totally on his stance re the property dispute).
I think Tulkinghorn realizes that Lady Dedlock doesn't care for him and is almost always bored with anything he has to say. I think that he is watching Lady Dedlock (maybe in order to protect Sir Lecister). He notices everything and he noted Lady Dedlock's interest in the handwriting on one of the documents he brought to the house. She usually is not interested so that especially caught his eye. He looks into it and brings the info back to Lady Dedlock about the author of the handwriting and tries to judge her reaction and see what she is going to do.
Re what we know about Lady Dedlock: I think we know that Lady Dedlock was not from as high level of society as Sir L. She is beautiful and reserved.
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I looked it up. In Chapter 2, we got our first description of Lady Dedlock. Sir Leicester is 20 years older than she and he is in his late 60s. He married her for love. She didn't have a family. "But she had beauty, pride, ambition, insolent resolve, and sense enough to portion out a legion of fine ladies. Wealth and station [from marrying Sir L], added to these, soon floated her upward; and for years now my Lady has been at the centre of the fashionable intelligence, and at the top of the fashionable tree....."
"My Lady Dedlock, having conquered her world, fell, not into the melting, but rather into the freezing mood."
She and Sir L are perfectly polite to one another and he seems to hold her in high regard but I don't sense passion.
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On March 6, we're moving into the next installment, V. We're almost near the bottom of the page so I'm posting a few messages so that we can put our heading for installment V on a new page. ;)
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In Chapter 14, DEPORTMENT, Richard leaves to study medicine and Caddy Jellby re-enters the picture with a couple of new characters and we learn about what's been happening with her. We also see more of Miss Flite and learn the names of her birds. The "medical gentleman" Woodcourt, who attended to the dead body of Nemo, also reappears.
In this chapter, aptly named Deportment, Dickens takes the opportunity again to satirize show over substance.
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Had to take a few day Hiatus - Income Tax and of course, regardless how many promises over the years the receipts are unsorted in a plastic bin -
Then I am in the middle of my own Jarndyce versus Jarndyce - lesson - read all email regardless if you recognize the sender or not - I usually trashed without opening what appeared to me to be an ad - well during the holidays some company that said that for a monthly fee I could each month receive as many credit reports as I wanted and further it said that I had 7 days to OK or cancel the service -
Never ordered the service - Never received anything by either snail mail or email - but for a couple of months there was this strange bill that I finally saw this weekend when I took time to scour my credit card activity - Being out of town for the holidays I just paid and then just paid in January and February -
Well they have been charging me and rang up on my credit card a total of $106 - so a weekend with lots of calls - Did cancel the ahum service but, no satisfaction getting money back - reported them to our Attorney General who is going after them and still trying to get it worked out with my credit card company to go after them and return my money.
OK book - I am in awe that y'all got through and understood chapter 11 - thank goodness for Rosemary's links but I have not been able to figure out what is a salute of the skittles - first I thought skittles was something to eat - than a frying pan and finally a board game but no - it is like outdoor bowling and so next to the Alms is a 'bowling' skittles field or whatever it is called - after I finally figured that out by reading the chapter 3 times and researching I still cannot find anything that tells me what is the "salute of skittles" - anyone Know???
And another what does it mean when the pieman's "brandy-balls go off like smoke." I know what brandy-balls are unless, this has another meaning - we used to make them every year at Christmas time with Kentucky Bourbon - ours were not cooked so I am assuming if these are the same cookie made with brandy they are not cooked so what is the reference to smoke??
Didn't you just love Mrs. Piper's testimony - I love it - bringing up anything that seems unrelated with an unholy possible outcome till she gets around to what she wants to say - to think folks had the patience to listen to her dream, an attention getter for sure with a pick-ax and a child's head being split, not - oh my - I bet she was not alone using this descriptive way to express herself - what was it they said on TV the other night, we now have the attention span of I think they said 27 seconds - and 160 years ago folks listened to a Mrs. Piper - just love it!
Ahh and Mr. Snagsby has a good heart giving Jo a coin on the sly. And 20 seizures in one night for dear Guster - oh dear, although, I bet even if she was not a child of poverty there would be no help since medicine was only a knowledge of herbs and the use of various hallucinogenics. Did you see that article in last weeks paper about the various famous people that used drugs from Ben Franklin to Pope Leo XIII, 1878 to 1903.
Interesting comparing childhood experiences - the Jellyby children, Mrs. Pardiggle's children, Mrs. Rouncewell's sons and Jo - needy, angry, sent away, abandoned to the streets.
Now what is a jack-towel neckcloth - a roller towle hung on the back of the door or in some old fashioned public restrooms is a jack-towel and a neckcloth I believe is what was fashionable before the modern tie but, I cannot picture what a Jack-towel neckcloth could look like.
A fun by-the-way blog on Dandyism - http://www.dandyism.net/trivial-pursuit-the-test-of-dandy-knowledge/
Lords - Boodle, Coodle, Foodle, Goodle, Hoodle, Joodle, Koodle, Moodle, Noodle, Poodle, Quoodle - a riot - and then Buffy, Cuffy, Duffy etc. - Oh my talk about Gothic - Tulkinghorn is assigned the turret chamber. Is that not descriptive,"walking before breakfast like a larger species of rook."
Their crowing is not a song but has often been described like the cry of a pack of hounds in hollow, echoing woods, or the rushing of the wind in tall trees, or the tumbling of the tide upon a pebbly shore. They usually create communities which seems an anathema to Tulkinghorn however, their diet is the larvae of injurious insects, grubs and they do damage to corn fields.
And what does evindenfly mean - as in Guppy, "leaning against the post and evidenfly catching cold." The best I could find was, it is a word used by Shakespeare in Hamlet with another word that is used to describe evidenfly being "encomium" meaning: Warm, glowing praise. A formal expression of praise; a tribute - formal praise; an elaborate or ceremonial panegyric or eulogy.
I am thinking this is another of Dickens worthy attempt to use irony suggesting a ceremonious certainty decorated with a eulogy to ascribe that Guppy is indeed catching cold. What do y'all think?
Oh and what glee - wonderful Mr. Badger - I have heard of folks living vicariously through another but he takes Aristotle's "law of association by contiguity" to the extreme... ;) intimate extreme...the past husbands seem to provide an endless topic of conversation with Mrs and Mr Badger each getting something from it and each other. A nice segue to Richard and Ada and now a dark gentleman - I guess if Nemo is no longer the secret, 'who is he?' now we have, I hope a worthy substitute in the dark gentleman - 'who is he?'.
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I'm sorry, Barbara, about your own "Jarndyce" difficulties. I hope you get your money back!
Those are all good questions about the meaning of terms. Let me take a stab at one of them. "The Sol's Arms does a brisk stroke of business all the morning. Even children so require sustaining under the general excitement that a pieman who has established himself for the occasion at the corner of the court says his brandy-balls go off like smoke. "
I think that the phrase his brandy-balls go off like smoke means that he sold them so quickley they disappeared like smoke.
Anyone know what the other terms mean?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illdancing.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illdancing.jpg)
The Dancing School
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INSTALMENT
V
VI |
DATE of PUBLICATION
July 1852
Aug 1852 |
CHAPTERS
14-16
17-19 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.6-10
Mar.11-15 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illconsecrated.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illconsecrated.jpg)
Consecrated Ground
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Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter XIV Deportment
1. Before Richard leaves to study medicine, he mentions that he isn't trusting in the Jarndyce suit but "if" it should be resolved, he has no objection to being rich. How do Ada and Esther react?
2. In this chapter Dickens takes the opportunity again to satirize show over substance. How is Turveydrop senior described?
3. In what ways are the parents of Caddy Jellyby and Prince Turveydrop similar?
4. How has Caddy changed since Esther last saw her? What is her relationship with Miss Flite?
5. What do you make of the names Miss Flite has given her birds?
6. What impressions do you have of the "medical gentleman" Woodcourt?
7. What other incidents or descriptions seem important in this chapter?
Chapter XV Bell Yard
1. How are the "philanthropists" who petition Mr. Jarndyce for money described?
2. Coavinses (Neckett) has died leaving three young children in the Bell Yard. What is their fate? How are they treated by various people?
3. How does Dickens use Gridley to strengthen his criticism of Chancery?
Chapter XVI Tom-All-Alone's
1. Lady Dedlock, disguised as a servant, goes to London to find Jo, the crossing sweeper who lives in a slum called Tom-all-Alone's. What places does she ask Jo to take her? What seems to be her reaction? What is her concern about the graveyard?
2. What details of poverty does Dickens provide in the description of Jo's tour of the city?
3. What events in this chapter serve to increase the suspense in the novel?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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mercie I removed my post so you can insert the heading - didn't realize my post would be the top of the page - - here is what I wrote
Ok marcie chapter 14 it is - after having to take a few days I had to add my two cents about chapters XI to XIII including a couple of questions of things I just could not figure out so if anyone can tell me that would be great and now onward yes, to chapter IVX - don't you love writing Roman numerals - reminds me of 5th grade...
and thanks for helping me understand a bit of my confusion - yes, that makes sense - fast - gone - up in smoke.
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Thanks, Barbara. We can still follow up on previous chapters as we move into this next installment.
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Chapter 14 starts with Richard leaving to study medicine. Before he goes he mentions that he isn't trusting in the Jarndyce suit but "if" it should be resolved, he has no objection to being rich. How do Ada and Esther react? At this point, are you worried about Richard?
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I read chapt 14 and want to comment today since tomorrow I have some heavy duty dental work and will be too sedated to write.
In this chapter we meet again one of my favorite characters: Caddy Jellyby. She could fit into the modern world of rebellious teens so well.
Probably Dickens patterned her after one of his own daughters, Kate, who was 13 at the time he was writing the book. Kate was the most outspoken of his ten children and was known in the family as "Lucifer Box".Kate was the third of his ten children.
Caddy also reveals that her father,Mr J.,confides in her and shares all his worries with her since his wife won't pay attention to him and is using all their money for "the African Children". Thus Caddy is the one holding the family together but it is quite a strain for a young teen to have to do it all.
Caddies boyfriend, Prince Turveydrop, is another tale of woe. Yet he too faces adversity with energy and willingness to help. Both Caddy and Prince are , for me, such likeable people, that I hope they do stay together.
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JudeS, Good luck on your dental work! Thanks for the interesting comparison of Caddy with Kate Dickens. I had not thought about that.
I too think that Caddy and Prince are likeable and have faced the similar lack of parenting and parental pressures to work for the mother (in Caddy's case) and father (in Prince's case), with courage. For me, they are similar in many ways but Caddy resents her mother, whereas Prince seems to regard his father's unreasonable demands as what he is "due."
Anyone else see similarities, or differences, between the parents of Caddy Jellyby and Prince Turveydrop? How is Turveydrop senior described?
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What struck me about chapter IVX is yet, another outstanding remarkable characters that fill the pages with a stage presence that you can almost see while reading about the dance studio and the impressive, worthy of kings, deportment of Mr. Turveydrop - these names - but can you imagine waiting for a month and the new excerpt arrives - everyone is round the table or in the parlor anxious to hear what happens next and Dickens gives the reader a chance to elaborate with yet another colorful excessive character -
Notice how the chapter is set up to the familiar behavior of most of his readers as if they were party to gossiping at the General Store or in town, over the fence, going on about the behavior and manner of a Mr. Turveydrop and his son Prince. Delicious. Calling his readers and listeners in bonding them to the story.
Toward the end of the chapter I do not know if Caddy sees what her mother did teach her is a benefit to Caddy and she does say how her learned strength with pen and ink allows her to do the writing where as, Prince can do what it takes to assure an income with his parent-learned manner toward his students.
Jude great info about Dickens having a daughter the age of Caddy - I bet there was bits and pieces of Kate he used to fill out his Caddy. Even both their names is a version of Catherine.
And so we have a name to go with the mysterious dark gentleman - we still do not know Who he is or Why Mr. Woodcourt has attached himself to John Jarndyce. And another familiar bit as John Jarndyce expresses his judgement about people and circumstances he continues to refer to the wind and the direction from where it blows.
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The personalities of Esther and Lady Dedlock do seem very different, JONATHAN. But
I don't feel I really know Lady Dedlock yet. She is a strong woman, like Esther, but
living such a pointless life she is always bored and restless. She really needs some
purpose in her life.
JOANP, your quote led me to think the relationship between Tulkinghorn and Lady
Dedlock was more adversarial. I think Marcie is correct. This is a man of secrets,
and he thinks he has found a new one. He is on the track, and the question is, what
will he do with whatever he learns.
BARB, I'm making a guess here, but I supposed the pieman's brandy-balls were very
popular, and sold off 'like smoke'. (I see Marcie came to the same conclusion.) And
who knows...'evidenfly' may just be evidently, as you would hear it from one with a
stuffy nose.
I was fascinated with Mr. and Mrs. Badger. She takes all her importance from the
rank and position of her husbands, and Mr. Badger is happy to be part of the proud
line. I've never heard of anything like it before.
Oh, dear, JUDE. If Kate was the third child, then there were seven other children
all under the age of 13. How did he get anything done? And his poor wife! How did
she manage? I hope she had plenty of servants.
MARCIE, I do see that Mrs. Jellyby and Mr. Turveydrop are wholly immersed in their own
personal obsessions. The rest of the world is either there to admire and assist, or
is given no further thought.
I noted Mr. Jarndyce, speaking to his ward Richard Carstone: “I am only your friend and distant kinsman. I have no power over you whatsoever. But I wish and hope to retain your confidence, if I do nothing to forfeit it." Compare that with Sir Leicester's attitude toward his
dependents and I think this is another strong comment by Dickens on the aristocratic attitude.
Is there any hope for Richard Carstone? He keeps repeating the same pattern. “So
Richard said there was an end of it,---and immediately began, on no other foundation, to build as many castles in the air as would man the great wall of China.”
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Barbara, that's a very good point you make: "Toward the end of the chapter I do not know if Caddy sees what her mother did teach her is a benefit to Caddy and she does say how her learned strength with pen and ink allows her to do the writing where as, Prince can do what it takes to assure an income with his parent-learned manner toward his students."
Even though it seems to me that Caddy and Prince have been taken advantage of by their respective mother and father, they have learned very useful skills in the process.
Babi, re Richard Carstone, I agree with you. I think that the last lines that we hear about him in this chapter, which you quoted “So Richard said there was an end of it,---and immediately began, on no other foundation, to build as many castles in the air as would man the great wall of China.” do not bode well for him.
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Whoops i see you posted while I was typing away marcie - I guess everything in life is a two edged sword. It is just hard sometimes to find the edge on the other side.
Interesting Babi the differences in the two men - I see Lord Dedlock maintaining his position, power and therefore wealth by being pragmatic, living in the now, continuing to play to the hilt the dramatic role of the peerage, and does not "suffer fools gladly." Where as, John Jarndyce seems to have wealth - how much or where he accumulated his wealth we do not know however, he maintains his power by keeping his finger on the pulse of the lives of many and in order to have the many as his wards or house guests he must make them feel valued.
A Kate Chopin, author, 1850-1904 quote, "He greatly valued his possessions, chiefly because they were his, and derived genuine pleasure from contemplating a painting, a statuette, a rare lace curtain - no matter what - after he had bought it and placed it among his household gods." I would for John Jarndyce include in his collection people - he helps them however, he does keep them around almost like a trophy without saying it. Where as some philanthropists, like Bill Gates try to empower people to live their own independent life.
I became curious and here is a link to a nice article on Victorian Philanthropy Within the article I found these two sentences enlightening - "The Victorian model of philanthropy was tied to religious and social morality, designed to help those who were deemed worthy of salvation, but it usually did not cater for the very poorest in society. In contrast, the self-help model tried to empower the poor and saw the eventual development of the co-operative movement and friendly societies."
http://www.spatialagency.net/database/how/empowerment/philanthropic.housing
Hmmm so as long as Richard is "worthy of salvation" he will be helped. He seems to be teetering and that puts even John Jarndyce in a precarious position with his values, need for personal power that helping others provides versus, the accepted socially correct morals of the day.
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A busy morning - I'm in here late - and see we are moving onward at a fast pace to the much anticipated fifth installment. I'm going to backpedal a minute and ask what you all thought of Mr. Bayham Badger. We're sure to meet him again, since he will have much influence on Richard in the capacity of his mentor.
I was fascinated with Mr. and Mrs. Badger. She takes all her importance from the rank and position of her husbands, and Mr. Badger is happy to be part of the proud
line. Babi
Babi, this couple really puzzled me. Was the dinner at the Badgers' just comic relief or was Dickens making a point with the scene. If so, what was it?
The only think I picked up in that interlude - the comment about Mrs. Badger and her three husbands: "... she's never really loved, but once." Does this bring Lady Dedlock to mind? Mrs. Badger doesn't really love Mr. B. Lady Dedlock has never forgotten a great love?
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About Dickens and Philanthropists - he really seems to have no use for them on the whole. But does he put John Jarndyce's philanthropy in the same category?
Do you trust Cousin John Jarndyce? I have a funny suspicion that he knew that by putting Richard and the beautiful Ada Clare in close proximity, love would bloom. Did you notice his comment when Esther told him of the romance, his comment was, "already?" I'm filing that away as a suspicion to watch for...though I have no idea what his motive might be...
While I'm all over this kindly philanthropist, I'm wondering why he wants to visit Miss Flite in her flat? Why would he be interested in her? Do you think he knows more than we do about the settlement she awaits? Do you think I'm too suspicious?
I can understand why Caddie would become friends with Miss Flite. For the simple reason - she really has no friends.
When Esther learns of Prince Turveydrop, she isn't happy with the news, thinks Cady is taking a rash step. But when she meets him, she likes him. Dickens seems to like him too - the fair, flaxen-haired, blue eyed child, taken advantage of by his greedy father with false teeth, false whiskers, false wig... The son in threadbare clothers, the father decked out in his finery... Does this mean that Esther and Jarndyce prefer young Turveydrop to Caddy's mother's obvious choice, Mr. Quale?
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I can't help feeling that Dickens had particular people that he knew in mind with these characters. They are like political cartoons, that are recognizable if you know the person, but exaggerate one particular characteristic to rediculous extent.
I'm not sure I would have wanted to be one of Dickens' friends. I'd be scared to read his books for fear of seeing myself in this funhouse mirror.
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My gut reaction is that John Jarndyce is supplying through the lawyers her shilling a day and he wants a close up look as he did with Esther when she was in the carriage on the way to school. But then you are right - he chooses who he helps and that maybe the trail to follow or at least keep in mind.
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'Lady Dedlock has never forgotten a great love?'
Yes, that's becoming fairly evident. Enough so to arouse Tulkinghorn's suspicions. He makes it his business to find out. Is there something in Lady Dedlocks past which could adversely affect the Dedlock House? Sir Leceister looks to him to protect his interests.
Babi suggests that Lady D needs some purpose in her life. It looks to me like she has achieved everything she set out to do: married into wealth and social position. And it has turned out boring. But somewhere in the past she did have a real romance.
It's curious to pick out the victims of the protracted Jarndyce and Jarndyce lawsuit, and how it affected them individually. We've been told about the wrecks and devastation left in its wake. It has certainly left John Jarndyce sensitized to everything disagreeable. It seems to me he is on a mission of reconciliation in the family, and a helping hand to unfortunates.
I find it interesting that Dickens makes Richard a victim of both the Jarndyce matter and the school system which has made a versifyer out of him. Really, in those days they felt educated with a bit of Latin.
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I am wanting to read how in the world Lady D met Leicester Dedlock and other than he falling for her why she married him if she had another love in her life - just for money??!!?? Maybe but comparing her to her sister's lifestyle when her sister was taking care of Esther it was not as if they were as poor as many we have read about - well we shall see - maybe she is cold hearted and married for money but still how did they meet - where did they meet.
And please anyone - what is the Salute to Skittles and also, what is a jack-towel neckcloth
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Barbara, have we learned definitively that Lady Dedlock and Miss Barbary, Esther's aunt, are sisters - or is this an example of Dickens' power of suggestion?
Jonathan - do you find that the victims are almost always young people? Do you see Richard Carstone a victim?
Barbara... a footnote - for what it's worth -
from chapter XI "Our Dear Brother" -
"At the appointed hour arrives the Coroner, for whom the Jury men are waiting, and who is received with a salute of skittles 7 from the good dry skittleground attached to the Sol's Arms."
7 A noisy bowling game, played with ninepins.
Maybe it was a form of casual applause at the arrival of the Coroner who arrives late for the inquiry?
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Good ideas, everyone re the skittles. I'll take a stab at the skittles reference too. This is my guess: There are a group of men playing skittles in the dry area (not muddy) attached to the Sol's Arms. As the Coroner arrives, the players lift up their skittles (similar to bowling pins) in salute.
A jack towel is "a long towel with the ends sewed together, for hanging on a roller." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jack+towel
The reference to George IV earlier in the sentence led me to look up a photo of him. His "neckcloth" does sort of look like a roller towel. See http://theregencyinkwell.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/princeregent.jpg
Barbara, I'm glad you asked the questions about the meaning of some of these phrases. I just skimmed over them in the reading but you've made me really think!
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JoanP, re Jarndyce visiting Miss Flite with the rest of the group, I'm thinking along Barbara's lines, that he is the one giving her the shilling and wants to check on her, as he did initially with Esther.
Are you suspicious of him? I'm not.... at least not yet. He seems like a good individual who wants to help others. He tells his wards that he does not want to influence their decisions because of his position as their benefactor. Of course, it would be hard for the young wards not to be influenced by him.
Jarndyce does seem to want to avoid thinking of anything that might be negative (east winds) so it's possible that he may not see the whole picture re anyone he wants to help. He seems to want to avoid difficult decisions. hmmmm... maybe we should be suspicious. Are any of the rest of you suspicious of him?
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Jonathan, I agree with everything you say, though I could not say it as well. Tulkinghorn is on the scent and will protect his master against anything adverse to Sir L's person or position relating to Lady Dedlock.
'Lady Dedlock has never forgotten a great love?'
Yes, that's becoming fairly evident. Enough so to arouse Tulkinghorn's suspicions. He makes it his business to find out. Is there something in Lady Dedlocks past which could adversely affect the Dedlock House? Sir Leceister looks to him to protect his interests.
Babi suggests that Lady D needs some purpose in her life. It looks to me like she has achieved everything she set out to do: married into wealth and social position. And it has turned out boring. But somewhere in the past she did have a real romance.
It's curious to pick out the victims of the protracted Jarndyce and Jarndyce lawsuit, and how it affected them individually. We've been told about the wrecks and devastation left in its wake. It has certainly left John Jarndyce sensitized to everything disagreeable. It seems to me he is on a mission of reconciliation in the family, and a helping hand to unfortunates.
I find it interesting that Dickens makes Richard a victim of both the Jarndyce matter and the school system which has made a versifyer out of him. Really, in those days they felt educated with a bit of Latin.
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Jackcloth: my book defines it as a cloth shaped like a roller-towel, wound around the neck so as to resemble a high stiff collar--just like your picture, Marcie. I would not have believed a roller-towel could be so elegant.
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Wow thanks for the skinny on Jack-towel collars or cloth what evers... Interesting I can almost picture them.
Joan I remember miss-reading and thinking the Godmother was the Grandmother and then someone posted that no, she was the Aunt, the sister of Lady Dedlock - I'm just going with that and it filled me with many many questions since it seems Esther and her Godmother who lived above poverty but not lavish and so, if the Godmother is the sister of Lady D they were not from peerage therefore, Lady D. married into it. Again, how in the world did she and Leicester meet and how did her sister become the Godmother of Esther which, as I know a Godmother is typically not a family member but a good friend and often the maid of honor at the mother's wedding. We have not read anything that suggests Lady Dedlock visited her sister and how come she did not have her sister living with them at Chesney Wold much less, visit them or have her come to the townhouse in London before Lady D. left for Paris. All very peculiar - also, we have no idea who was the mother or father to Lady D and her sister.
Wasn't learning Greek and Latin the major form of education so that you read many volumes in philosophy, wars, debate and history in either Greek or Latin, considered a 'Classical' education and if you had an interest in medicine you had to know German since all medical books were written in German...? I did read that schools for the masses were established by law in England after 1870 however, there was still a debate till the turn of the century if the poor should be educated in schools.
I am remembering many authors who wrote about England during the 1800s including some biographical materiel on the lives of some Poets that as young boys they were put under the instruction of a minister and often lived in the minister's home with a few other boys. And reading other novels set in this period it appears there were tutors for the wealthy titled families. It sounds from our story that even as an older Collage Age pupil Richard studies with someone in the profession he is choosing rather then learning in a College. Cannot imagine how the Badgers and Richard will get on with each other - I shake my head with that one...
Thinking about Caddy and how she befriended Miss Flite - falls in love with someone who appears to be living with and earning a living from the education she knows about and desires and is aware of her skills and Prince's skills all at the age of 13 or 14 - whew she is wise beyond her years and is determined to get a life that matches her idea of how a life should be lived. Interesting to me is how Dickens has Caddy feeling sorry for her Dad and yet, no where does it hint that it takes two to tango and 10 children were not born by Blessed Mother Jellyby.
Ok so there was before 1971, 20 Shillings or 240 pennies to the pound therefore, one shilling is like a nickle is to the dollar. I wonder the value of a nickle or a shilling in 1852? OK found it "What cost $1 in 1852 would cost $25.88 in 2010." So one shilling is worth about $1.30 American and aha found this... a $4. loaf of bread today would cost sixteen cents in 1852.
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PatH, yes that roller towel in the picture is quite elegant! It seems that Dickens is making fun of that neckwear fashion.
LOL, Barbara, You say, "Interesting to me is how Dickens has Caddy feeling sorry for her Dad and yet, no where does it hint that it takes two to tango and 10 children were not born by Blessed Mother Jellyby."
Yes, it does seem that most of the men of the day didn't take any responsibility for the number of children they had! Perhaps they wanted so many because children often died young due to sickness.
Large families were the norm. In 1870 many families had five or six children. See http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/Homework/victorians/life.htm#family
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Marcie, I'm sure that is right - large families because (a) so many died in infancy (every time I go to church here in Haddington, I walk through the graveyard and see so many memorials to little children) and (b) you needed to make sure you had some children to look after you in your old age. No welfare state then. And as there soon won't be again if Cameron has his way, I'd better start training my children as nursemaids...... ;D
Also, of course, they had no contraception.
Barb - I agree, it takes two to produce all these children.
Rosemary
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An interesting take on John Jarndyce, BARB. In his defense, tho', I must say that in
those times, there was little a young woman could do to live an independent life unless
she was independently wealthy. Ada and Esther are both most fortunate to have a relative/
benefactor who happily welcomes them into his home. Neither does Jarndyce strike me
as one who will abandon someone he cares for,...like Richard..who is showing a sad lack
of good sense.
Good question, JOANP. I would think the Badgers would show up again, but meanwhile
they definitely are comic relief.
Two attractive, pleasant young people in close proximity, with interests in common?
It's only natural they should 'fall in love'. Why ascribe some 'motive' to their cousin
for noticing it? Some readers, I see, are suspicious of John Jarndyce and his motives.
My own take is that as Esther is Dickens' ideal young woman, John Jarndyce represents
his ideal of the kindly man of wealth. He avoids praise and is delighted with the
young people in his household. He is the 'hero' of this book, IMO.
Great find, MARCIE. That has got to be the jacktowel neckcloth.
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Babi, perhaps Dickens sees himself in John Jarndyce - with his benevolent regard for all who are young and beautiful. Will Jarndyce stand out as the only "philanthropist" to escape Dickens' scathing opinion? From that angle, I can see where you would see him as the "hero" of the book. You may be right. I'm still going to watch him closely. He just seems too good to be true.
So next he meets Caddy Jellybe - how can he help her? Does Dickens himself seem to look upon her plans to marry young Turveydrop with approval? Will Jarndyce? Do they seem to be a young couple in love?
An interesting question, Marcie - can you see the parents of Caddy Jellyby and Prince getting together for a little engagement party? Mrs. Jellybe and Mr. Turveydrop in the same room? What a scene! No, I think they'd have to elope - though I can't see that happening with Jarndyce's approval - and blessing. Do you think this marriage is in Caddy's best interest? Will Jarndyce?
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Thinking about Caddy and how she befriended Miss Flite
Yes, she did, Barb, and it works both ways. Isn’t Miss Flite teaching Caddy about sewing – that’s why she tried so desperately to sew up Peepy’s clothes. Can’t you just picture that child when he and Caddy appeared at the Jarndyce lodgings. I think the Esther’s first visit to the Jellybys “primed the pump” so to speak for Caddy, that she saw something in Esther that made her determined to try to better herself. Sort of an “if Esther could do it, she could too.” And as someone here mentioned earlier, Miss Flite was the only likely friend available.
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Rosemary, those are good points about no reliable contraception methods in those days and the need for children to care for their parents.
Babi, I agree with you that Ada and Esther are both fortunate to have a relative/benefactor who welcomes them into his home. He may have foreseen that Ada and Richard might make a good "couple." It would seem natural to want those two to get together.
Pedln, yes, the Caddy/Miss Flite arrangement goes both ways. They are both helping one another.
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Yes, I agree, as I said I think Caddy is brilliant and wise beyond her years as she propels herself into a more genteel and comfortable life. And that would be a fun scene to see the parents of Prince and Caddy together - it will be interesting to see how Dickens handles that one won't it... ;)
I thought the next chapter the typical scene of poverty for the Victorian era - Skimpole in his frivolous and oily way makes it all sound like the gods are arranging it all much as the traditions of Buddha dropped into the story and to quote Shakespeare, all's well that ends well.
Had to really search but found that a follerer is a debt collector and another said a repo man so it would be easy to understand why folks were not wanting to befriend him - he was the one that knocked on their door when their debts were called and they could not pay.
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"those are good points about no reliable contraception methods in those days and the need for children to care for their parents."
Yes, in pre-industrial societies, the birthrate is very high, but so is the deathrate. This leads to something called the "demographic transition". As a country begins to industrialize, the death rate falls (from better hygene, nutrition) but at first the birthrate remains the same. There is a tremendous boom in population for a generation or so. As people move to the cities, these large families become more and more of a burden. People take steps to bring the birthrate down, and population growth levels off again.
This boom and leveling occurred in this country around the turn of the century. It is illustrated by my family: my great great grandparents had 10 children, but only two lived to adulthood. We have letters from my g-g-grandfather, as he passed the churchyard where so many of his children were burried.
My grandparents, living after the deathrate had dropped, also had 10 children but they all lived. We have letters there, too, showing how hard it was to support this large family.
My parents had two children. By this time, the population growth had leveled out, as people took matters into their own hands.
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Oh, Serendipity!
Yesterday, at the Dentists Office, I found a Feb. issue of Smithsonian magazine with a ten page article on Dickens!
I learned so much and will add to the discussion some interesting facts that I hope wiill add to our discussion.
1)In Chatham England there is a "Dickens Theme Park which recreates the scenarios of many of
D.'s novels. It is a kitchy 100 Million dollar project to which people throng from all over the world.
2)Dostoyevski, who had read some of Dicken's work was so impressed, that he made a trip to England just to meet the man himself and discuss writing. (When I had compared their writing I couldn't imagined that Dickens was such a great influence on Dostoyevski.)
3)Dickens, found time, together with Angela Coutts, one of Englands wealthiest women, to create and administer the Home for Homeless Women, a shelter for prostitutes in londons East End.
4)in 1861 Dickens domestic life had become increasingly unhappy. He had fathered ten children, micromanaged their lives and pushed all to succeed. One by one they fell short of his expectations. Dickens had more energy than anyone in the world and expected his sons to follow in his footsteps. But he had the fear that the genetic traits -the lassitude in Catherins family and
the fecklessness and dishonesty in his own-had passed down to his sons. Out of the seven boys many escaped to Canada, Australia and India at their Father's urging.
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That must have been a pleasant surprise for you, Jude. Thanks for those interesting facts about Dickens and his influence. Everybody was reading him. Laughing and learning. His stuff seems a little quaint somehow, but he's as beloved as ever.
What a style! What fun trying to get at the meaning of things he puts into his story. What an imagination. Turning the noise of the skittles into a salute to the coroner arriving to investigate an unusual death. I doubt if the players were aware of the role they were playing in Dickens' narrative. Bizarre!
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Jude, I have to ask...did you take notes - or did you TAKE the magazine from the dentists? It was last month's... ;D
I looked all over for ours - husband told me we no longer get it. No wonder I didn't see it around. Thanks for the information you've posted here today.
I've a killer cold - got it from my husband, I'm quite sure - who got it from our granddaughter. Have felt like doing nothing , except sit here on this lovely day - bundled up and sniffling.
I found myself thinking of Miss Flite and how everyone is gathering in her tiny humble flat at Krook's Rag and Bottle shop on Chancery Lane. There's a question about the names of her birds - quite a few names. ...{why name a bird "spinach"?}
I was more interested in the name Dickens gave to Miss Flite herself. We're told she intends to set all of of her birds free - once the judgment comes in. The birds will be free to take flight. The same with Miss Flite - who will no longer have to live here in this humble flat.
But as I was thinking of Miss Flite's flat - some doggeral opportunity here, Jude? - I began to think of each of the young ladies flocking to her flat - Caddy, Esther, Ada - each "caged" in her own way - I wonder how a decision in the Jarndyce case might affect the future of these young ladies.
Is there any reason to believe that Miss Flite's case is connected to the Jarndyce matters?
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Joan,
Hope you feel better soon. But you reminded me of birds and their strange names. Dickens himself was a bird lover. He even buried his birds with gravestones when they died. He had a beloved canary named Dick to whom he fed a thimblefull of sherry each morning. His gravestone reads:"This is the grave of Dick, the best of birds. Died at Gad's Hill Place, fourteenth of October
1866."
Joan I purloined the magazine from the Dentist. Perhaps I will return it when I return in two weeks.
Now I will give you one last silly ditty for your amusement.
From D's pen the plot revealed,
Three friends closely sealed:
Ada, Esther's doll, cuddled.
Rick, slightly befuddled.
Esther, feelings muddled.
Anon, we will discover their fate.
Now we read,ponder and debate.
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Jude, you are brilliant! I love your verses. Thank you for the information from the Smithsonian. Out of his seven sons, it's so sad that none met his expectations. He was such a larger-than-life figure I guess that he was too big an act to follow. Also, his fears about heredity might have been self-fulfilling. Perhaps, he should have had hopes for his daughters. It might have been easier for them to succeed.
JoanK, how lucky that you have those letters from your ancestors. You have your own mini-history of the times.
Jonathan, you may be correct, that it is the noise made by the skittles that is the "salute" to the coroner. Yes, what an imagination Dickens had. His language is so colorful as are the fantastic characters he creates.
Barbara, yes, the follerer was the debt collector. No wonder that the children he left after he died were not welcomed or cared for by some of the people in their neighborhood.
JoanP, yes, those caged birds of Miss Flite have to be symbolic of the characters who are each caged in some way... and more broadly symbolic of the people, who are "caged" by the courts. Some of her birds have lived and died in the cages, since they won't be released until the Court's judgement day.
The significance of the birds makes me think that the cat, Lady Jane, who is always trying to get the best of those birds--in a very agressive way-- is like the courts in regard to the people. Lady Jane is Krook's cat and he is the "double" of the Lord Chancellor. His cat is as greedy as the Court.
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Miss Flite's birds are called Hope, Joy, Youth, Peace, Rest, Life, Dust, Ashes, Waste, Want, Ruin, Despair, Madness, Death, Cunning, Folly, Words, Wigs, Rags, Sheepskin, Plunder, Precedent, Jargon, Gammon, and Spinach. She also added two more birds called the Wards in Jarndyce. What do you make of those names?
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He was a fat old gentleman with a false complexion, false teeth, false whiskers, and a wig. He had a fur collar, and he had a padded breast to his coat, which only wanted a star or a broad blue ribbon to be complete. He was pinched in, and swelled out, and got up, and strapped down, as much as he could possibly bear. He had such a neck-cloth on (puffing his very eyes out of their natural shape), and his chin and even his ears so sunk into it, that it seemed as though be must inevitably double up, if it were cast loose. He had, under his arm, a hat of great size and weight, shelving downward from the crown to the brim; and in his hand a pair of white gloves, with which he flapped it, as he stood poised on one leg, in a high-shouldered, round-elbowed state of elegance not to be surpassed. He had a cane, he had an eye-glass, he had a snuff-box, he had rings, he had wristbands, he had everything but any touch of nature; he was not like youth, he was not like age, he was not like anything in the world but a model of Deportment.
--from ch 14
I wonder how people found Mr. Dickens repitation with some of his sentences; I don't think authors today would be overly poplular if they used this type of repetition too often as seen in the last line of the above quote. ...but I love the description of Mr. Turveydrop, senior.
Mr. T, senior could be in competition with Lady Dedlock, I think....they are both so immersed in their fashion and being 'out there' for the world to notice with not really much else on their minds, but boredom in Mrs. D's case--Mr. T seems so swelled up with self-infatuation he probably doesn't need any outside interests...hard work to be so full of self
self
Cady seems to be trading a mother for a father-in-law, both with a major interest that is time consuming ...will that be a major downfall in a marriage??
am wondering if Miss Flite's new source of income, coming so soon after the death of the other resident down the hall from her flat, ??Nemo might have left it in his will to aid her...was a shilling very much at that time??
how did Mr. Dickens ever keep his characters straight when writing this book--I would be interested to see his system;
as you can see I am somewhat behind everyone, but enjoying the read and catching up
Deb
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I'd love to see Mrs. Jellyby and Mr. Turveydrop getting together. Which could be the
most self-satisfied and disdainful, I wonder. As for eloping, Prince is far too
obedient and loving a son to even dream of such a thing. They could not possibly marry
without Mr. Turveydrop's blessing.
JOANP, I understand 'spinach' was used as a slang word at one time. One of the meanings
was 'banknotes', which may be why Miss Flite used it. I also have the impression I've
read where it was used in the sense of 'nonsense'...which could be another reason Miss
Flite chose it.
JUDE, I think that's your best yet. MARCIE, those bird names have to refer to Miss
Flite's long experiences with the Court of Chancery. They are so expressive, from Hope
to Gammon and Spinach!
Another mystery! Another hint, or portent, of future revelations. (Mr. Krook)
"kept close to Mr. Jarndyce, and sometimes detained him, under one pretense or other....
as if he were tormented by an inclination to enter upon some secret subject, which he
could not make up his mind to approach.” What does Mr. Krook know?
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Babi - I think everything that Krook knows comes from copying the papers he collects in his shop...though he can't read them, can he?
Thank you so much for translation of that bird's name - "Spinach". Now that you explain the name as "banknotes" it makes perfect sense. All the names seem to refer to her court case and what is to come once it is settled?
I have a footnote in the Norton Critical:
Ham {gammon} and spinach, a dish, but here quoted from the Nursery rhyme - "A Frog He Would a-wooing Go
"A frog he would a-wooing go,
Heigh ho! says Rowley,
A frog he would a-wooing go,
Whether his mother would let him or no.
With a Rowley,
powley, gammon, and spinach,
Heigh ho! says Anthony Rowley."
The words of the song made no more sense to me than the names given to Miss Flite's birds -
EXCEPT when I read this explanation of the song, I begin to see the connection to the story we are reading now - Listen to this -
"This song is one of the different variants of the song ''Frog Went A-Courting'' a very old English folk song with Scottish origins. The first known record was in Scots as "The frog came to the myl dur" in ‘’Wedderburn's Complaynt of Scotland’’ in 1548.
The song tells a story about a frog who rides to ask Miss Mouse if she would marry him. Miss Mouse needs to ask permission from her Uncle Rat before the two can work out details of the wedding."
I've another footnote on the Gannon name - "a seemingly nonsensical style of talk that may mislead a listener."
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DEb - I'm interested in hearing more about Miss Flite's "new source of income." She does seem to be doing quite a bit of entertaining in this little flat - does she serve tea? I hadn't noticed a new source of income, but easily could have missed it. I'm fairly certain it was not left to her by the deceased... perhaps Mr. Jarndyce is helping her out, now that Esther has brought her to his attention?
When reading your post about Dickens style, the repetition - I couldn't help but think of the families gathered around to listen to whomever was able to read, read it aloud. I think the writing style would be quite effective when read this way.
How did Dickens keep his characters straight? That's the jackpot question! I've read that he liked to tell his readers that the work just flowed from his pen as if he were inspired while writing - when the reality is that he was highly organized and methodical.
I've got the Norton Critical Edition in front of me - in the back there is a whole section on " Dickens' Working Plans" Copies of them too in his own handwriting too. If you are ever in London, in the Victoria and Albert Museum - you can see these pages for yourself.
Here is a link to an article describing the detailed plans he created for each of the Bleak House instalments. These are his "working sheets" for the plot, theme and characters, so he made changes as he went along - but kept this ready reference before him at all times.
There are whole books published on how he kept himself organized while writing Bleak House. This might be more information that you are looking for - I found it fascinating...
Dickens' working sheets for his novels (http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2011/12/charles-dickens-plan-sheets.html)
Deb - you're not far behind if you are reading of Mr. Turveydrop!
Jude - I liked the word "purloined." :D We'll have to collect your doggeral verses in one spot, don't you agree, Marcie?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illdancing.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illdancing.jpg)
The Dancing School
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
V
VI |
DATE of PUBLICATION
July 1852
Aug 1852 |
CHAPTERS
14-16
17-19 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.6-10
Mar.11-15 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illconsecrated.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illconsecrated.jpg)
Consecrated Ground
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter XIV Deportment
1. Before Richard leaves to study medicine, he mentions that he isn't trusting in the Jarndyce suit but "if" it should be resolved, he has no objection to being rich. How do Ada and Esther react?
2. In this chapter Dickens takes the opportunity again to satirize show over substance. How is Turveydrop senior described?
3. In what ways are the parents of Caddy Jellyby and Prince Turveydrop similar?
4. How has Caddy changed since Esther last saw her? What is her relationship with Miss Flite?
5. What do you make of the names Miss Flite has given her birds?
6. What impressions do you have of the "medical gentleman" Woodcourt?
7. What other incidents or descriptions seem important in this chapter?
Chapter XV Bell Yard
1. How are the "philanthropists" who petition Mr. Jarndyce for money described?
2. Coavinses (Neckett) has died leaving three young children in the Bell Yard. What is their fate? How are they treated by various people?
3. How does Dickens use Gridley to strengthen his criticism of Chancery?
Chapter XVI Tom-All-Alone's
1. Lady Dedlock, disguised as a servant, goes to London to find Jo, the crossing sweeper who lives in a slum called Tom-all-Alone's. What places does she ask Jo to take her? What seems to be her reaction? What is her concern about the graveyard?
2. What details of poverty does Dickens provide in the description of Jo's tour of the city?
3. What events in this chapter serve to increase the suspense in the novel?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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bookad, you say, "Cady seems to be trading a mother for a father-in-law, both with a major interest that is time consuming." You're right. Her mother and father-in-law to be are quite similar in their full-time obsession with their causes (in Mr. Turveydrop's case, it's himself). I think that Cady will be a help to Prince T. in that she can take over the tasks of making tea/coffee and cooking for him and Prince so that Turveydrop Junior is free to teach classes. Sharing the burden with Prince might make it bearable.
When Miss Flite's new income (7 shillings a week) was announced, Esther looked at Mr. Jarndyce who was occupied looking at something else. I am thinking as JoanP and some of the rest of you, that Jarndyce is the source of her new income.
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Babi, thank you very much for finding the "banknotes" meaning of "spinach." In addition to it sounding like nonsense (as JoanP finds in her nursery rhyme reference) and, thus, adding to the humor of the names, "banknotes" makes very good sense in the context of the Chancery.
You mention: " Another hint, or portent, of future revelations. (Mr. Krook)
"kept close to Mr. Jarndyce, and sometimes detained him, under one pretense or other....
as if he were tormented by an inclination to enter upon some secret subject, which he
could not make up his mind to approach.” What does Mr. Krook know?"
Yes, Mr. Krook is following Mr. Jarndyce around like a cat and he's trying to teach himself to read. What papers does he have in his stash? What is he trying to find out?
JoanP, you comment about the repetition in Dickens' writing in this novel: "I couldn't help but think of the families gathered around to listen to whomever was able to read, read it aloud. I think the writing style would be quite effective when read this way." That is very likely. We know that Dickens often performed his novels and also read them aloud to himself while he was writing, taking on all of the characters. Also, I read somewhere that Dickens took a long, meandering style with Bleak House in particular, so that he would mirror the long, drawn-out process of the Chancery.
Thanks for the link to the article about Dickens working style. My Penguin Classics edition of Bleak House also has an appendix with a typed copy of Dickens' plan by numbered chapter of the characters and plot movement he was going to use in each chapter.
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I love the support material that is shared - thanks Joan that is a really nice link - and thanks ever Jude the article you quote from the magazine is really rounding off so many edges - I did find this site that explains Gammon to be slang at the time to mean Deceive but Spinach was not listed - the site is filled with the slang words used during this time in history
http://www.tlucretius.net/Sophie/Castle/victorian_slang.html
Deb I was curious as well about that shilling and its value - this was what I found - since British money changed the shilling was important before 1971. The count was 20 Shillings or 240 pennies to the pound therefore, one shilling is like a nickle is to the dollar.
I wonder the value of a nickle or a shilling in 1852? Found "What cost $1 in 1852 would cost $25.88 in 2010." So one shilling is worth about $1.30 American and found... a $4. loaf of bread today would cost sixteen cents in 1852.
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Barbara, thank you for that fun link to Victorian slang. I found at random:
Beak-hunting: Poultry stealing
Bearer up: Person that robs men who have been decoyed by a woman accomplice.
I could spend a lot of time there!
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Barbara - I read that one monthly installment of Bleak House cost one shilling in 1852. Miss Flite might even have a shilling set aside for one of these now. :D
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:D ;) Miss Flite and her shilling to buy Dickens and read about herself :D I love it...
What caught my eye marcie is the slang word for Rook - remember when Tulkinghorn was described walking in the park at Chesney Wold as a black rook - that I thought meant a bird - well now I wonder - or maybe even a double entendre because rook is slang for jemmy as in a tool used by a thief to jemmy something open - now does that fit Tulkinghorn or what...?
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What a lot of good posts this morning. fascinating to read about Dickens and his fear that the "fecklessness" in his family will infect his sons. That explains Richard in a nutshell! I'll bet he is portraying either his feckless son, or what he was afraid his son would be. (I love that word: "feckless" -- never hear it anymore).
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Last night, there was a broadcast of an episode of Dickens' "Little Dorrit" on my local PBS. Check your local TV stations, to see if it's being broadcast in your area. It had a character with birds in it, too, although they were more exotic birds. And more satire of government institutions.
Unfortunately, I didn't know it was going to be on, and tuned it in in the middle. But I kept up fairly well.
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Joan K
Of all PBs and BBC Television series of Dickens Books I thought "Little Dorrit" to be the best.
Each episode outdoes the one before it. I believe it is so good because Dicken's father was in the Marshalsea poor house (debtore prison) and he visited his father there. He had a lifelong onterest in this place in which Dorrit lives her whole childhood.
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I'm trying to catch up on my posts, so some of my comments will be backtracking.
I agree that Miss Flite's shillings come from John Jarndyce. Jarndyce also hoped from the very start that Ada and Richard might fall in love. The first evening they are at Bleak House, Esther, Skimpole and Jarndyce are talking, and watching Ada and Richard at the piano. Jarndyce has been looking at the cousins: "...though Mr. Jarndyce's glance, as he withdrew it, rested but for a moment on me, I felt as if, in that moment, he confided to me--and knew that he confided to me, and that I received the confidence--his hope that Ada and Richard might one day enter on a dearer relationship."
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Someone wondered if Sir Leicester Dedlock still loves his wife. I can't find it, but somewhere we are told that he does. What we aren't told, is whether she loves him, or ever did. But at least she is nice enough to him that she hasn't killed his love.
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Re the question about the source of Miss Flyte's sudden income. It has been guessed correctly by one of us. Here's Esther on it:
'I did not speculate upon the source from which it came, or wonder whose humanity was so considerate. My guardian (Mr Jarndyce) stood before me, contemplating the birds, and I had no need to look beyond him.'
'Contemplating the birds', is very significant. Mr J is seriously trying to make the world a better place, and the birds, as Babi pointed out, represent Chancery fallout. Constant attendance in court has given her a sorry picture of life. Of course it is also a way the author has of telling the reader what is to come. I take gammon and spinach to stand for etc, etc, etc.
Isn't Pippy a sweet little character. Hanging around the market. Playing with his oyster shells. Following the junkman, or the sheep being led back to the country. But he's being spoiled by Esther. What a critical eye she has. Caddy shows up with her little brother in tow, and all Esther sees is Caddy's inability to make him presentable. The result: inelegant deportment. A great foil for the dressed up Mr Turveydrop Sr. How funny. The dirt on his face and hands has only been wiped into the corners!
Caddy kvetches too much. But, she does want a life of her own. Can't blame her for that. How funny. Life for her father is, 'one great washing-day - only nothing's washed!
What a surprise in this instalment. Mr Tulkinghorn is making enemies. There he is in his office writing to the magistrate to get a restraining order, that will keep Mr Gridley from doing him 'bodily harm.'
Another character: 'an old lady of censorious countenance.' Peepy tried sitting beside her, caused her much indignation with his boots, and then moved one seat over, making a place for Esther, who then silently compares notes with 'censorious.' But the show goes on.
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Joan P--thank you for the piece about Dicken's writing and his notes; am going to try and find these articles/books
ironically you mentioned Norton's critical essay book & I believe that is the book that is on reserve for me at the library--the one I currently have is due back having had it out three terms--failing that there is a good online copy of the book Bleak House
http://www.online-literature.com/dickens/bleakhouse/15/
her good fortune?”
“Most extraordinary!” said Miss Flite, smiling brightly. “You never heard of such a thing, my dear! Every Saturday, Conversation Kenge, or Guppy (clerk to Conversation K.), places in my hand a paper of shillings. Shillings. I assure you! Always the same number in the paper. Always one for every day in the week. Now you know, really! So well-timed, is it not? Ye-es! From whence do these papers come, you say? That is the great question.
--from chapter 14 when after the visit to the dance academy the group went to Miss Flite's residence
Deb
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Deb, you'll be happy with the Norton Critical Edition. I have one more note about Dickens' writing style that I found this morning - it helps to picture the author as he works out the novel.
"The working notes took the form of "plan sheets" for each installment. In these he worked forward and backward in planning the whole novel. He followed the following procedure:
- about ideas for future developments: things having to do with planning and decision making, writing queries to himself about which options to ttaking a sheet of approximately 7" x 9" of (pale blue) paper, he folded it at the long side horizontally in half, which he then opened, using the left half to make notes ake, what character to kill when, tags and motifs, about names, alternate possibilities in story development, etc. Often, he answered such queries later a laconic "Yes," "No," "Not yet," "Consider for next number," etc.
On the right side dealt with the substance of the chapters. Thus he uaully wrote on the top right of the sheet the name of the novel and the installment number; below the title he wrote the name of each planned chapter. In the space under each chapter he listed the most important events. The "plan sheets" varied very much, as one might expect. Some plans are very full, some remained rather empty.
Sometimes he supplemented these planning notes with supplemental notes about chronology, calculations of the ages of characters, ratio of manuscript pages to printed pages, considerations of what he had done and needed to do; plans for the end of the novel.
These Plans were succinct outlines of reminders and motifs, resumes. They are "compact and cryptic," as they were only intended for him. Apparently, he kept the notes together with his manuscripts. One might therefore say that Dickens was of necessity an outliner."
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JoanP: "One might therefore say that Dickens was of necessity an outliner."
In order to write a book like this, one would have to be, I'd think.
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Oh yes, JoanK. I just love the image of him with his 7x9 sheets of blue paper - folded neatly in half, ready to go. For one who claims the words just flow out of his pen, he seems almost compulsive in the way he organizes his desk and writing materials when he sets out to write.
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I appreciate all of the interesting posts here today.
Have we touched on the "medical gentleman," Woodcourt, whom we see again in Chapter 14, after being introduced to him in Chapter 10 when Miss Flite called him to Nemo's apartment (after Nemo was already dead). What do you think of him?
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I was glad for Woodcourt's explanation in chapter 14 that Miss Flite had fetched him to Nemo's deathbed; his appearance there had seemed like a big coincidence.
Esther is rather coy about describing him (or her feelings about him), but he speaks for himself, and seems to be unassuming, very sensible, compassionate, and clever.
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We certainly are seeing a lot of children in difficult circumstances.
We have the Jellybys, dirty, unwatched, always hurting themselves, with Caddy, no longer a child, resentful of the burdens placed on her.
We have Jo, who doesn't seem to know much about anything, but has figured out how to scrape out a living by sweeping the streets.
Now we have the young Neckett (Coavinses) children, managing during their father's illness and after his death, with the 13 year old doing washing, precariously getting help from neighbors.
And there is a brief appearance of one of Skimpole's children. Neckett's successor takes possession of Skimpole's house during the birthday celebration of his blue-eyed daughter. Skimpole annoys me. He is about to leave his family in this pickle (perhaps the daughter is grown up, but even so) and go gadding off to Boythorn's. And the way he talks here about not knowing the value of money, and especially about being a child, makes me feel he knows perfectly that this is his meal ticket and is working it for all he can get.
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(I love that word: "feckless" -- never hear it anymore).
No, you don’t, JoanK. I’m glad you brought it up, as I think I had glazed over it. It certainly does describe Richard.
And Miss Flight’s good fortune – I had overlooked that. “A paper of shillings.” That surprised me, as I had always pictured shillings as being coins. I agree with those who think that these shillings have come from Mr. Jarndyce.
And it wouldn’t surprise me if the Neckette children also will receive something from Mr Jarndyce, perhaps administered by Mr. Gridley. The two men do seem to have their dislike of the court system in common, and in spite of his anger at much of the world, he has shown that he cares for the children. As little Tom says, "he ain't mad at ME"
We have Jo, who doesn't seem to know much about anything, but has figured out how to scrape out a living by sweeping the streets.
I agree, PatH, lots of children in dire circumstances. You can’t help but wonder what their lives will be like as they get older. Caddy has had some kind of education, and has perhaps found a future with Prince T, who also probably has learned his letters and numbers. But for the Neckettes and Jo – will little Tom ever learn to read? Jo has street smarts, as he bites his money to make sure it’s gold, and then hides it in his mouth. But such payments will be rare for him.
This is London in the 1850s. Is a child condemned to the status in which he was born?
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PatH, I agree that Woodcourt seems to be "unassuming, very sensible, compassionate, and clever." He says that it's because he came too late to help Nemo that he is coming frequently (maybe without pay) to look in on Miss Flite. He seems very compassionate. And he doesn't try to confront or change Miss Flite. He seems to understand how to relate to poor, idiosyncratic people.
PatH and Pedln, we are meeting a lot of children in unfortunate circumstances. The Neckett children seem to be resigned to their status and to do all they can to survive. They don't seem to expect help from adults.
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A Treat
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/09/oldest-charles-dickens-film-discovered
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Pedln: I wonder if a 'paper of shillings' means a packet or envelope with the coins inside? I think you used to be able to buy 'a paper of sugar' and things like that.
Yes I think the children are condemned to the status they are born in. And I think they still are today more often than not - it's just not quite so obviously bad (eg you wouldn't see a child sweeping the street in this country any more, but there are still thousands of them suffering severe neglect and abuse behind closed doors - maybe more so now, when most of us don't know our neighbours and are very reluctant to 'interfere'. Imagine if Mr Gridley came down and cuddled the Neckett children today - he'd be arrested for sexual abuse).
Rosemary
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Upon that, Mr Skimpole began to talk, for the first time since our arrival, in his usual gay strain. He said, Well, it was really very pleasant to see how things lazily adapted themselves to purposes. ........................................................There had been times, when, if he had been a Sultan, and his Grand Vizier had said one morning, “What does the Commander of the Faithful require at the hands of his slave?” he might have even gone so far as to reply, “The head of Coavinses!” But what turned out to be the case? That, all that time, he had been giving employment to a most deserving man; that he had been a benefactor to Coavinses; that he had actually been enabling Coavinses to bring up these charming children in this agreeable way, developing these social virtues! Insomuch that his heart had just now swelled, and the tears had come into his eyes, when he had looked round the room, and thought, “I was the great patron of Coavinses, and his little comforts were my work!”
--ch 15
Mr. Skimpole --only one word I can think of that characterizes him delusional
and though he may be childlike I really don't like this man; am amazed at the patience Mr. Jarndyce has when in his presence--watching the movie portraying Skimpole from a BBC version, he was really portrayed as a real lulu, a real twit
I don’t know where she was going, but we saw her run, such a little creature, in her womanly bonnet and apron, through a covered way at the bottom of the court; and melt into the city’s strife and sound, like a dewdrop in an ocean.
what a beautiful/sad mindpicture the above leaves me with
Deb
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Deb - I'm not sure that he's delusional - more of a schemer IMO. If I were Jarndyce I would have throttled him by now :D
Rosemary
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That is a treat, Barb. Thanks. I didn't know they made films that early. I wonder what was the earliest.
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Love it, JOAN! This is the sort of thing that makes these discussions so much fun.
I remember the rhyme as beginning, "The frog he would a-courting go". Maybe that's
where I first heard of gammon and spinach, though I don't remember that part. I did
have the impression that the words denoted nonsense.
I liked that article, too. Whew! The amount of planning and hard work that went into
his writing. I had been aware of one early statement, that "Names were obviously very
important for Dickens. They are highly evocative and have often "symbolic" significance."
I think we've all noted that some names seem so appropriate to the character.
What really confused me about Krook, MARCIE, is that he insisted on trying to teach
himself how to read. He didn't trust anyone else to do it. ??? I think we must add
paranoid to our description of Mr. Krook. It might explain a number of things.
I wholly agree about Skimpole, ROSEMARY. The man was playing his 'child' role to the hilt,
but I notice he is very clever with his arguments and explanations. Far too clever for a child.
Mr. Jarndyce is so saddened by all the grief he sees, I think he really wants to believe in the childlike innocence of Skimpole.
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My heart went out to Mr. Gridely - Dickens knew how to change our opinion of him by first describing him as "irritable" "combative" - a rough character seemingly looking for trouble. Made you cringe at the idea of his looking in at the little Necketts..(I have a footnote describing the location of their flat as "three pair" - as up "three flights of stairs" ) But then he's described as kind to the children. Slowly we hear of the lawsuit that has taken two years to resolve, costing three times what his mother had left - And now we understand the man's bitterness. Esther notices the floor of Gridely's room is littered with paper as she climbs up to the Neckett's place. The case still goes on.
Mr. Gridely's suit is compared to that of Jarndyce. I've been wondering all along how John Jarndyce is affected by the lengthy suit. He lives in a fine home, spending money freely. Isn't his estate at risk ? Or does he spend his fortune now, assuming that the case will never be settled and he'll never have to pay costs? - If it is settled someday, he will have little left with which to pay the costs He seems totally unconcerned.
Something else about his attitude towards Skimpole - he is clearly amused at Skimpole's lack of responsibility, doesn't mind picking up the tab for his spending. - While I'm with the rest of you in our dislike of Skimpole, I'm finding the benevolent John Jarndyce's attitude towards him both puzzling and annoying.
Deb - the comparison of little Charlie Neckett to a dewdrop in the ocean brings to mind all of these neglected children - so many of them, yet they are mere drops in the ocean. How many of them can John Jarndyce hope to save?
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Barbara, that is such an interesting article about a 111-year-old film that was recently found that depicts a character from Bleak House! Pedln, I searched and found the Roundhay Garden Scene, an 1888 short film directed by inventor Louis Le Prince. It was recorded at 12 frames per second, runs for 2.11 seconds and is the oldest surviving film. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1i40rnpOsA
I am with all of you who have found Gridley's character very sympathetic in his care of the orphaned children. (I think you are right, Rosemary, about his being suspect of child abuse today!!)
I am also with all of you who want to throttle Skimpole. JoanP, I'm puzzled too why Jarndyce continues to support him. One of the early chapters does say that he finds Skimpole refreshing in his admissions of his requests for support from Jarndyce; as opposed to the elaborate and boring requests from various "philanthropists." Deb, maybe you are right that Skimpole is delusional. He may truly believe (talked himself into believing) all that he says.
Thanks, Deb, for quoting the excerpt about the little Neckett girl. It vividley struck me too while I was reading. It was very sad, but also hopeful in some kind of odd way. She is a shining dewdrop amid the dirt and chaos of the city.
"I don’t know where she was going, but we saw her run, such a little creature, in her womanly bonnet and apron, through a covered way at the bottom of the court; and melt into the city’s strife and sound, like a dewdrop in an ocean."
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Don't be too hard on Skimpole. He's very entertaining to have around as a house guest, with his provocative ideas. Everybody finds him entertaining. That's what he does for his supper. Why would Mr Jarndyce want to throttle him. They relate well. And influence each other. Didn't Mr Jarndyce gently remind Skimpole that Coavinses was just doing his job in arresting him? Skimpole picks up on that and later points out that, yes, the dead Coavenses had been providing for his family. Instead of idling in the sunshine as he had been advised by Skimpole.
We are certainly given plenty of opportunity to make comparisons. Gridley and Jarndyce. Caddy and Charlie. Guppy and Woodcourt. Mr Tulkinghorn and....in a class of his own. He's setting himself up for trouble. Ignoring women at his peril. Thinking of them as the troublemakers in the world. If it weren't for the business they bring along with their troublemaking.... I could tell you the funniest lawyer joke... but I'll take a hint from Dickens...don't talk about sex.
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Life has gotten in the way of my participation in this installment’s reading and discussion. I hate it when that happens! I am now caught up, just as we are about to move forward again.
I am thrilled that Caddy has found a fiancé in Prince. I am also very glad that Caddy and Mrs. Flite have formed a friendship.
Based on what we know of Mr. Woodcourt, I still think that he and Esther will make a good match.
I gained even more respect for Mr. Jarndyce when I read that he “was constantly beset by the crowd of excitable ladies and gentlemen, ” the philanthropists. It must be exhausting be to around people who want something from you all the time.
This installment ended with another cliff hanger! Why was Lady Dedlock interested in Nemo’s places, including his final resting place?
Looking at the big picture of this installment, I was struck by the satirical portrayal of Mr. Turveydrop, and the contrast between the rich and the poor and the educated and the uneducated. In general, I found these chapters to be sad to read. Dickens certainly doesn’t gloss things over for his readers, does he?
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What I am beginning to see is Dicken's genius in his attention to the tiniest details.:
The cat-Lady Jane
The "Birds of Flite"
The Lost children-each story sadder than the one before it.(But Jo's the saddest of all.)
I can place all the characters and their symbolic value except for Mr. Skimpole. What is Dickens really trying to tell us when he put a character like that in this book? It may be revealed later on. Meanwhile I have four theories. I don't know if any of them are true but I gave it a shot.
1)Even Mr Jarndyce, with all his wisdom, is not above being scammed.
2)Some scam artists are so talented that they make it big and get away with everything.
3)Dickens needed a foil to compare with the good soul of Mr. Jarndyce.
4)Dickens has closely observed a scam artist and wishes to forewarn us what this type of person is really like. This would allow us to recognize him if we came across such a one as he.
Do any of you have further ideas of Mr. Skimpoles true place in this novel?
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I am laughing with the memory of Hyacinth Bucket and Richard in the Brit Com Keeping up Appearances when Richard comes home with athletes food and Hyacinth in her usual flutter and need to be respectable says he has Gout because it afflicts those who over-indulge on finer living.
And I think the difference between Mr. Turveydrop and Lady D is not just that they are both fashionable - Turveydrop is fashionable in his dress and manner much like a Dandy where as. Lady D is described as having "Fashionable Intelligence" -
This story is taking place 60 years after the French Revolution and 4 years after the revolution ended the Orleans monarchy. During the eighteenth century, leading up to the first Revolution popular were the Salons in France that were all about discussing and bantering about the latest thinking in the arts, science, freedom etc. Salons were run by women and considered the hallmark of Fashionable Intelligence.
Lady Dedlock's boredom is another example of being caged - in that there are books and books written about how women were dismissed from power after the French Revolution when men took over the organizing and creation of the changing governing powers. Granted we had Victoria on the throne however, in the Dedlock "patrician order of aristocracy" women were a decoration. It appears that Lady D was bucking the "testimony to greatness" by flittering "hither again, to the confusion of the fashionable intelligence."
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Yes, Jude I think I do - it will take me a bit to organize my thinking since I see things like a schematic electronic board with various colored lines making elbow connections and always have before I knew such a think/thing existed - so it takes me a bit to get it into thoughts I can convey - I am seeing lots of links in a new way and with your sharing about how the Dickens boys left England to create their own life for me it is all fitting.
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Jonathan, Skimpole certainly is entertaining. JudeS, would Dickens include a character mainly for the benefit of humor?
Laura, yes, reading about the children of Neckett was very sad. Dickens giving the eldest girl and her younger brother, who babysat the baby as well as he could, such nobility made me feel for them even more.
Barbara, how fitting to recall Hyacinth Bucket. She is a character worthy of Dickens.
We talked about Chapter 14 quite a bit. We slipped into Chapter 15, THE BELL YARD, and have touched on the main characters and events. We've also talked a bit about Chapter 16, TOM ALL ALONE'S. Tomorrow is the last scheduled day for this installment.
As Laura says, we're left with a cliffhanger as Lady D, disguised (not very well) as a servant, has asked Jo to take her to all of the significant places for Nemo. The final place is his grave -- his body has been put on top of other skeletons and assorted bones, and not covered with much earth. Lady D asks Jo if it's consecrated ground but he doesn't know. What do you think is her concern?
What descriptions of the poverty of Jo's surroundings struck you as especially forceful?
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I believe John Jarndyce has an independent income, JOANP, aside from the 'expectations'
of the Jarndyce case. Sensibly, he expects nothing whatever from Chancery and goes about
his life quite peacefully without it.
Tulkinghorn and 'Conversaton' Kenge, perhaps, JONATHAN? I'm not enraptured with Kenge,
either, but at least he seems more open and more agreeable.
So glad you are back, LAURA. Life does have a way of doing that. I can think of only
one reason for Lady Dedlock's interest in Nemo. She must know that he is her lost lover.
And no, Dickens doesn't gloss over the horrors, does he? He wants very much to bring them to
the attention of his readers, and stir up their indignation about all of it.
Some good ideas on the Jarndyce - Skimpole question. JUDE. Any of them could be correct.
I wonder if we will ever know for sure? I'm curious to learn how BARB's colored lines are going
to merge. :)
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What descriptions of the poverty of Jo's surroundings struck you as especially forceful?
A gross way to start the day, but Jo going barefoot on the streets struck me.
"with his bare feet, over the hard stones, and through the mud and mire."
"into a corner of that hideous archway, with its deadly stains contaminating her dress."
Blah!
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Here's some news from one of our Reading Promotion Partners in the Library of Congress Center for the Book -
PBS MASTERPIECE CLASSIC - GREAT EXPECTATIONS BOOK GIVEAWAY
Continuing the focus on the anniversary of Charles Dickens' 200th birthday, Masterpiece Classics on PBS will premier a new adaptation of Great Expectations on Sunday, April 1. The program has been nominated in Great Britain for "best drama series" by the Broadcasting Press Guild (BPG) TV Awards.
Our friends at the PBS Educational offices in Boston have generously offered our SeniorLearn readers a limited number of the 150th Anniversary/Penguin Classics Deluxe edition of Great Expectations free, just for the cost of postage. Interested? If you'd like to own one of these book copies, simply post your interest in SeniorLearn's PBS Discussion (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2716.400) by March 16. If the number of requests is greater than the number of books provided by Masterpiece Classics, we will hold a random drawing of names from the relevant posts in the discussion. We will follow up later for your address. Open to U.S. residents only.
Talk about any PBS programs, or indicate your interest in receiving a copy of the 150th Anniversary/Penguin Classics Deluxe book, Great Expectations, at http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2716.400
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Laura , barefoot Jo - and homeless Jo. That dreadful place - Tom-All-Alone's is no place for the boy, full of drug users, dealers, alcoholics - thieves - but he really has no place to go. A strange name for the house in which Jo lives. Strangely enough, I read in the Norton's Critical edition that there really was a house with this name - "the home of Thomas Clark, a recluse of whom Dickens learned in his childhood." That's all it says - but somewhere else is a list of titles Dickens considered for this novel - "Tom All-Alone's" was right up there on the list behind "Bleak House." This seems to idicate the importance of these children in the novel. There seems to have been no social services looking out for these children.
I can see nothing but trouble ahead for a boy like Jo with that gold coin given to him by the "servant" girl. How does he break it? How does he explain where he got it?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illcaddy.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illcaddy.jpg)
Caddy's Flowers
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
VI
VII |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Aug 1852
Sept 1852 |
CHAPTERS
17-19
20-22 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.11-15
Mar.16-20 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illlittlechurch.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illlittlechurch.jpg)
Little Church in the Park
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter XVII Esther's Narrative
1. Do you think that Richard's careless attitude regarding his education and future prospects is due to the Chancery suit or to the educational system of his time? Can you discern what Esther thinks of him?
2. "The virtues of the mothers shall occasionally be visited upon the children, as well as the sins of the fathers." What did Jarndyce mean by this when discussing Ada's future happiness with her? Do you think he knows Ada's father?
3. Did her Guardian reveal any new information to or about Esther, when he told her it was time to discuss her history with her?
4. Do you think we've heard the last of Allan Woodcourt as he heads off to India or China for a long voyage? Do you think he left that nosegay for Esther?
Chapter XVIII Lady Dedlock
1. Esther observes Richard's spending - his magic 'Fortunatus' purse. Do you see Richard's spending habits like Skimpoles' or do you see a difference?
2. Do you think there is more to the animosity between John Jarndyce's friend, Boythorn and Sir Leicester, than the disputed property line? Why are Jarndyce and the girls heading out to Lincolnshire to meet up with Boythorn?
3. How does Dickens heighten the intensity in the much anticipated meeting between Esther and Lady Dedlock in the little country church in Lincolnshire? How would you describe their reactions to one another when they came face to face?
4. What new information regarding a history between Jarndyce and Lady Dedlock is revealed at the end of this scene?
Chapter XIX Moving On
1. Did you expect Jo to have a hard time on the streets with that gold coin he received from Lady Dedlock? Why did the constable bring him to the Snagbys'? Is there any place in the world where Jo can move on?
2. What brought Mr. Guppy to the Snagbys' parlor, just in time to hear Mrs. Chadband's surprising revelation?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I agree with you, Jonathan - Tulkinghorn is in a class of his own. He's the only one who scares me -
We've yet to witness a murder, unless you count Nemo's death as murder. (and there was Tulkinghorn, right his death bed.) But we know there will be one. Does Tulkinghorn seem the sort who would get involved in a murder? I can't really see it - but at the same time I can't help but notice the different adjectives and images Dickens used to portray him - always black and dark, his face an expressionless mask, secretive - no household staff, no law clerks, heartless, ruthless... I was startled to see how coldy he issued that order against poor broken Gridely. But a murderer? And yet...
Aha, Babi - you see Jarndyce as independently wealthy - not dependent on the outcome of the Jarndyce and Jarndyce case in any way. Even if costs must be paid - won't he feel it? He's Tom Jarndyce's heir - lives in the house that belonged to Tom Jarndyce! Is he so confident that the case will never be decided? Or if it is, it will be in his favor?
Does anyone know why the case is called "Jarndyce AND Jarndyce"...is there another Jarndyce involved besides Uncle Tom?
Jude, Skimpole's place in the novel is puzzling, isn't it? I'm not seeing him as a scam artist...at least I don't see him scamming Jarndyce. What is Dickens telling us with this character? Is he simply comic relief - for us, the readers, as well as for Jarndyce, who is tired of the many requests for his support?. At least Skimpole is a source of amusement - worth the money. He really isn't a good example for young Richard Carstone, is he? Why doesn't Jarndyce see this?
Shall we add Skimpole's postition in the novel to our list of questions? Perhaps it will become clearer as we get deeper into the story. Our list gets longer - think there is only one that has been answered - can you find it? Here's the list - UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html)
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Babi, I too got the impression that Jarndyce's income is separate from the money tied up in the lawsuit.
Laura, those are awful descriptions of the poverty and mire in which Jo lives. The "deadly stains" that "contaminate" Lady D's dress are especially vivid. "into a corner of that hideous archway, with its deadly stains contaminating her dress."
JoanP, that's so interesting that Dickens wanted to name the book "Tom All-Alone's." I can't figure that out.
I'm worried, too, about the gold coin. What would a boy like Jo do with a gold coin!?
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Even getting change for a gold coin might be a problem for Jo, and people would be suspicious of how he got it.
Lady Dedlock's attitude toward Jo is striking. She looks at him with loathing, and doesn't seem to regard him as human.
I agree, John Jarndyce is rich in his own right.
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Hasn't Dickens taken us into a morass of people and events? I don't think I have ever read a book like this one. I'm hooked. I'm already thinking of the next Dickens book. It will probably be Great Expectations, with that new movie coming up in April. But meanwhile, back in Tom-all-alone's... What will Jo do with his gold coin? How will he explain it? With the same answer he has for every question: I know nothing. I don't believe it. Not from a kid who lives on the street. One can't even guess how often he's asked for information. By coroners and ladies of fashion!
That deadly stain on her gown does look terrible. But better on the outside than on her soul. She seems like such a loner despite being the object of society gossip. Is she anybody other than Sir Leceister's wife? Did she come up the 'deportment' way?
Interesting, Jude, the questions you have about Skimpole. What's he doing in this story? I believe he represents a great alternative to all the misery in Bleak House. Perhaps comic relief. Everybody loves him. Hasn't he just told us that Boythorn has invited him out to his place? His cockeyed ideas amuse all his listeners. He has novel ways of looking at life's problems. He's a great and successful sponger. Nobody is fooled. Except himself. He feels bilious. He knows many men with property who are bilious. And so he feels propertied himself.
So I think he is a shining example for Mr Jarndyce, who carries the weight of J and J on his shoulders. He's certainly trying to get out from under. Trying to rebuild the family that has been torn apart for generations. Like the Gridleys. Jarndyces have been fighting Jarndyces through the years, caught in the legal trap. At the cost of sixty to seventy thousand pounds. That would be about five million pounds in todays money.
Barbara mentiond Queen Victoria in her post. Not long ago I watched the Mrs Brown movie. She's holed up in Sandringham Castle feeling unloved by her people. A constitutional crisis is looming. Prime Minister Disraeli goes up there to get her out of her self-imposed exile. The people love you, he tells her. your book on the Highlands is outselling Dickens!
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OH dear - colored lines - shoot which one to pick up first - trying to remember how I started to see this because since I have an entire schismatic in my head of many colored lines that is affecting how I am seeing characterizations and life lessons from the story.
It hit me back when I noticed John Jarndyce was generous however, he surrounded himself with the people he helps like an art collector or collector of trophies - this is NOT said to be judgmental but is a characteristic that as an element of a story is called the "exposition" and therefore, if that characteristic was interrupted or put to the test it could be the "conflict" that leads to a "climax" or one of the many climaxes that the author brings to "resolution". So far with the understanding of charity at this time in history Richard could be teetering but John Jarndyce seems to accept much behavior different than his own just as long as the person he is helping remains in his life.
Then a bunch of character pairings in the story plus many of you acknowledged the reason for many children was to provide security for their parents in their old age - not mentioned but, along those lines is how farmers needed hands for the fields with the promise the farm would be theirs one day.
OK two divergent thoughts here - like Frost's Walk in the Woods - OK first this one - a quick reference to a sociology text that compares the children of the world.
"If the fate of the majority of babies is in doubt, it follows that the community into which a child is born would be reluctant to make a deep emotional investment until the child's viability was confirmed. Our survey revealed that most societies do not automatically confer personhood upon the newborn."
This chapter continues to talk about how swaddling and cradle boarding is explained by moms that children are made strong with these practices and without swaddling or cradle boarding when they are older they will drift into deviant behavior.
And so, for Esther and many other moms, we substitute swaddling with nurturing that matches a certain expectation of "look" - clean, neat, no potty mouth, patched in a nice way, educated, regular hours, helpful, socially acceptable behavior, if not a pride to the family at least not an embarrassment etc. etc. We are as concerned as Esther is for Caddy, Peppy, all the Jellyby Children - we put white hats on the nurturers in the story and question anyone who seems distant that we interpret as uncaring especially, someone who "brags" about their uncaring with what we think is a lame excuse.
OK we could go deeper and deeper into this characteristic as it applies to characters in the story and to ourselves and life today. Now the other bit - that has often, many times, helped me and is carried to extremes in the story but it does have validity. I see this concept as opposed to those who put greater emphasis on trophy taking especially in business, marketing, what we expect from ministers sermons and in the story not only Skimpole but the difference between Caddy and Peppy.
Every time Jonathan posts about Peppy he sees the independent, adventurous, free little boy that is anything but swaddled or cradle-boarded. Compare Peppy to Mrs. Pardiggle's children.
Did you know a dandelion can have up to 2000 seeds in each flower head? Can you imagine a dandelion holding on to its seeds and not letting go? And who doesn’t love to blow the seeds off a dandelion! Wind and children seem to be the best at it.
I see how the internet has blown all sorts of information into the wind - wishes we are told should be let go into the wind - we have no idea where or when they may sprout like seeds. Certain business practices only give information if they have a way to capture you as a client - taking trophies - marketers want to measure the affect on profit if they blow information into the wind - but we do want our ministers to preach blowing their seeds of wisdom for us to accept or reject or at times not even hear rather than as a source for a bigger collection or to direct our attitudes about others in the world.
Mrs. Jellyby blows her children in the wind and Peppy thrives but Caddy had expectations placed on her - and that is what I think she is chaffing under just as any child whose principle role after birth is to take care of the parents that brought him or her into life or to receive a gift and the message is clear we must use the gift in a certain way and make it a part of our life - how many of us stored gifts in the attic to be brought out when the giver came to visit and finally used it in an elephant sale - another example of a gift given to secure a connection to your own values rather than as a seed blown by us as in blowing a dandelion.
John Jarndyce sees the wind and if there is trouble, someone who does not measure up to what he can accept the east wind is mentioned however Skimpole is a child and epitomizes blowing his children to the wind.
On one side there is - “Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it.” and then there is, "The Answer My Friend is Blowing in the Wind", "Let it be", "la beauté est un voyage"
The age old question do we help the poor expecting them to use the help and the leg-up as we think or do we allow the poor to have the freedom that the help temporarily provides. This to me is one of the questions that Dickens is exploring in Bleak House - the courts, the law like the government cares less about those who are within their jurisdiction and have blown them to the wind - and by making Skimpole a character that is not to be admired it is easy to see when in all scenes so far he is a foil to John Jarndyce.
Like Miss Flite we can cage up our values till the courts that control stop controlling words and documents paying attention to people, common sense that we see as justice however, the story says those caged values will be supper for those who have been flexing their aggressive behavior -
Is the caged Lady Dedlock supper to the likes of Tulkinghorn - Caddy is breaking free of her cage and Peppy never stepped into the cage - Richard and Ada are in the cage built by the courts and so forth - so I see...
the difference between blowing a Dandelion and collecting Trophies - Business wants to count Trophies - Marketing wants to count and collect Trophies - Good Will can either blow itself in the wind or be a Spider Web - did Dickens allow his boys freedom or did he hold them to his expectations - is their moving away interpreted by another as an example of control over freedom - hmmm we can look at it both ways because he sure did not stop their journeys on the wind.
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PatH, you say, "Even getting change for a gold coin might be a problem for Jo, and people would be suspicious of how he got it." I agree. All he can say is that a "servant" gave it to him. Not a very believable story.
Jonathan, you have a great sense of humor. No wonder you are captivated by Dickens. LOL re Queen Victoria outselling Dickens!
Barbara, you've focused on two of Dickens important metaphors: cages and winds. I'm going to re-read your post and think some more. I want to follow your colored lines.
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Mercie there are times when I think my colored lines are like Jo's muddy crossroad
I see that Mrs. Jellyby blew all her children to the wind except Caddy who is her trophy child - I think that is why Caddy is angry with her mother - she has felt like her mothers trophy without being free to do her own thing.
I see that Skimpole in the story is around either John Jarndyce or Esther both who seem like Spider webs - with JJ collecting trophies and Esther desiding the behavior that is worthy of being a trophy.
Miss Flite keeps her dandelions [birds] caged without using her power to either blow any into the wind or to collect a trophy but promises if she gets a trophy she will blow some of her caged captives into the wind.
Then you have Caddy becoming stronger for rising against being caged not because she is rising against the wind however, Mr. Gridley becomes more nurturing and compassionate than he was to his brother because he has been blown to the wind by the court system and in his freedom without a farm he rises and takes on the care of two of the children.
And so I am not seeing a consistency that suggests being blown to the wind is any less valuable than being taken as a trophy. They do represent a way of seeing some of the conflicts because Dickens does have JJ fully accepting of Skimpole - the courts, who seem to blow people into the wind depend upon another wind blower in Mrs. Jellyby. Dickens does not treat too kindly Mrs. Pardiggle and her controlled trophy boys.
In fact, that is what Richard seems to be doing - there are hints that he may not be angry like Caddy says she is with her mother but, he seems to want to go his own way.
Well it opened my eyes to a dichotomy that I see in my choices today and how I interpret some of my experiences. Freedom, I think Dickens is saying comes with risk where as doing the socially acceptable is controll and maybe caged versus the winds of change which is freedom.
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hmmm, Barbara, when you say that Esther is "deciding the behavior that is worthy of being a trophy," do you mean her own behavior? So that she is worthy of being someone's "trophy" or do you see her deciding or judging the behavior of others?
It seems to me that Dickens is very hard on the Courts which seem to be controlling the destiny of so many people. Caging (as the Courts do) seems akin to taking trophies in some way. I am not sure that Dickens is for caging versus freedom.
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Esther seems to judge others and is approving or being diplomatic or finds a way to enter the persons space to make a difference or simply moves on - I get the impression she became a watcher of herself and others as a child as she was told and realized she was a problem to her Godmother.
And yes, I am with you - I do not think Dickens has come down on either caging or blowing in the wind - caging is protection and nurturing so that both dandelion blowing and being a trophy have their virtues - Caddy would never have learned to write nor be so determined to find better in life if she had not been a trophy - and you have to wonder if Jo is experiencing a better life living in the streets versus being in an orphanage as we know from Oliver Twist what that experience was like.
What I do see is that each character is projecting a value and if something came along to disrupt - for instance, how would John Jarndyce handle helping someone who decided to be independent and not stay under his patronage while engaging in risk that could bring about further and greater calamity or if Caddy could not make a better life and had to stay as a secretary to her mother her entire life.
I do not think we as a reader have to judge if a trophy or caging is better or worse than being blown forth in the name of freedom. Our history honors freedom but we look for security and think that children should be protected -
I was taken with the piece that explained how mothers will hold off investing their feelings in their babies because so many die which reminds me of the stories of how on earth a mother in Africa today can leave a child on the side of the road to die in order to save the other children - we hear how some mothers cannot make that decision and they die but thank goodness we hear that from a father who continued on with the children - how many mothers die with their children that we don't hear about - In order to have a future the mother who chose children to save at the cost of another child's death must divest themselves of their feelings - One on one we are devastated with these thoughts and images yet, divesting of feelings is what is being perpetrated by the court system in addition, Dickens was addressing society that divests their feelings about the poor.
Further reading about the bones piled in the cemetery - Nemo's bones - since there was not enough cemetery space in London corpses were dug up and dismembered in order to make room for the next - there were knives and hatches for this purpose left in a locked cemetery. The poor robbed coffins to use as firewood and sold any cloth as rags - white rags received more money than colored rags and the bones were sold to make knife handles, buttons and boiled to remove the fat that was used to make candles - no wonder the servant lady was distraught in contrast to Jo who took it all as normal with no outward feelings about his friend Nemo.
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Dickens ended the 5th installment with a cliff hanger, didn't he? Lady Dedlock left that "cemetery" with her stained skirts and Mrs. Rouncewell telling Rosa she's never heard the step upon the Ghost's Walk more distinct than it was that night. Though I don't think anyone saw her out that night - except Jo, of course, we're left with the sense that she is going to be found out. Did you enjoy the fact that she returned from this outing for a fancy dinner and not one, but two balls! :)
"She looks at him (Jo) with loathing, and doesn't seem to regard him as human." PatH, I too puzzled over Lady D's reaction to the sight of poor Jo Do you think she was regarding him as part of the whole - as part of the condition in which this man she obviously knew, had lived...and died? The whole place, including Jo, would have been appalling and depressing to her.
Jo returns to that run down flophouse - "Tom-All-Alone's." You were surprised that Dickens came close to giving this name to his novel? "Tom-All-Alone's" is a bleak house, isn't it? Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
I'm quite excited to get into this new installment- in which John Jarndyce is to discuss Esther's history with her! Not to mention the prospect of Esther and Lady Dedlock coming face to face for the first time! Dickens, the master storyteller!
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Since court costs were paid out of the contested estate, John Jarndyce would not have to
pay those, JOAN. And obviously he is wealthy enough to take in Esther, Ada and Richard.
Not to mention being besieged by do-gooders wanting funds.
I agree, I can't see Tulkinghorn as a murderer, either. He is far too cautious and careful
to do anything that would put himself at risk. I assume that it was 'Jarndyce and Jarndyce'
because other family members challenged the original will. It is now obvious they would
have been happier and wealthier if they had accepted it.
Unfortunately, BARB, Richards 'own way' appears to be an idle enjoyment of life with
no real responsibilities,..which of course requires a happy outcome from the lawsuit.
So, where does that leave him? Does anyone think Jarndyce and Jarndyce is going to be
resolved to anyone's satisfaction?
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Babi - I'll bite. Yes, I think the case will be resolved - but "to anyone's satisfaction" - that is a good question. I think that new information will come to the fore that will settle the original reason for the suit...but the rest of it is anyone's guess.
Do we know who brought the suit in the first place? As Tom Jarndyce's heir, don't you think that John Jarndyce is involved in the case? I thought Tom Jarndyce died penniless - except for BLEAK HOUSE...
"Esther seems to judge others and is approving or being diplomatic or finds a way to enter the persons space to make a difference or simply moves on." Barbara
This instalment opens with a visit from Mrs. Bayham Badger of all people! I'd been wondering how Esther viewed Richard, Barb. Perhaps she'd been diplomatically waiting for an opening such as this. I was surprised at the way the opportunity presented itself. What did she think of Richard?
Do you think that his careless attitude regarding his education and future prospects is due to the Chancery suit or to the educational system of his time? Would he be this way even had he not had those prospects?
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In Chapter 17 Dickens opens up Richard's character flaws-and so elegantly spoken by the writer:
"Richard had no habit of application and concentration..... Like fire and water though excellent servants they were very bad masters.If they had been under Richard's direction, they would have been his friends, but Richard, being under their direction, they became his enemies."
"He had the careless spirit of a gamester who felt he was part of a great gaming system."
Esther sees these parts of Richard but still likes him. I had the feeling, by the end of the chapter, that there was a bit of Skimpole in Richard. This was a sad revelation.
There are so many chapters left. Perhaps in the end Richard will redeem himself in some way. At the moment he is like a feckless Frat Boy.Charming but really worthless.
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I missed the bit about the two balls - maybe I would have had an earlier clue who she was - it wasn't till Jo spoke of her rings that I figured it out because I thought it was Lady D's personal maid or a yet identified relation to Nemo since they indicated he was at one time a man of substance.
A lady being out alone at night in this part of town - I can see how un-nerving that must have been and to have to call upon the help of a stranger who represents in looks and speech all that this part of town represents - I think she was thinking of her own safety and not the feelings of Jo. We know him as the sweet orphan but Lady D never met him and had no idea what to expect - I may not say anything for fear of being hurt but if it were me today I do not think I would be capable of being that risky.
Well I feel like as you say a cliff hanger but even more - I think we have turned the page and we are now into the meat of this story - the characters are introduced with their characteristics - the underlying themes of the story are outlined and now Dickens will be showing us the conflicts and getting to the climax of each conflict - I cannot imagine there will be introduced additional important characters - maybe a few minor ones to help flush out the conflicts. Sixteen chapters devoted to the soup course - I wonder if we could have stayed mucking about pre-WWI with Downton Abbey that long - although the original Upstairs Downstairs was 68 episodes.
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Oops! I've fallen behind. Just now starting on chapter 16. Will wait to read posts until I've caught up. Anyone else having trouble keeping up??
Sally
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Our Welsh mom and Dickens fun attempt to write the names of the mythical heroes of Wales - he was au courant - Lady Charlotte Guest had in 1849 finished translating into English the - Mabinogion and Culhwch ac Olwen along with the other myths of Wales in two volumes.
The Mabinogion is a series of 4 Romance stories and included in anther series is Culhwch ac Olwen which is a story of a young knight whose step mother put a curse on both him and his father - he must marry her daughter - he never sees her but is drawn to her and in order to find her enlists the aid of Arthur - with 6 of Arthur's best they find her but the wedding is delayed because if it takes place the death of the king, his father is part of the curse. hmmmm
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Well for heaven's sake - last one in the world I would expect but it appears Miss Flite's daily shilling came from Mr. Woodcourt!
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This installment looks promising to reveal more of the story - but we are not halfway into the book...How much will Dickens give away so early?
Sally, you really aren't that much behind, but you are wise to go off with a nice hot cuppa and catch up a bit. Can you read XVI, the scene in the grave yard and then the first chapter of this installment, Chapter XVII? . We'll watch for you.
Is anyone else having a hard time keeping up? How would you feel about stepping up the pace? Or is this pace - three chapters every five days?
Barbara was describing Dr. Woodcourt's mother in her last post. Really? Mr. Woodcourt is leaving those 7 shillings for Miss Flite? I missed that. The poor surgeon? Another generous man - like John Harndyce? Are we a bit too quick to assume that JoHn i Jarndyce is the only source of generosity? Maybe Dickens is showing ua that there are other "philanthropists" at work here.
This doctor could probably reveal something more about his patient - the mysterious Nemo - don't you think? Surely the methodical Mr. Tulkinghorn will arrive at this same conclusion.
Didn't we learn that Mr. Woodcourt is off for China or India? Do we know why?
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Woodcourt as benefactor blew right by me. I still thought it was Mr. Jarndyce. I'm surprised, because Woodcourt is broke. That's why he's off to be a ship's surgeon. To make a go of it in London, he needs a way to keep going while he builds up a reputation and a practice and is making enough to live on, and he has no monetary cushion whatever.
I was amused by his mother's Welsh names. I think Dickens was mostly making them up to be the sort of mangled thing Esther would produce hearing them once and not knowing any Welsh.
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Esther telling the reader about Allan Woodcourt's mother: She was a pretty old lady, with bright black eyes, but she seemed proud...after expatiating to us on the fame of her great kinsman, said that, no doubt, wherever her son Allan went, he would remember his pedigree, and would on no account form an alliance below it....She talked so much about birth, that, for a moment, I half fancied, and with pain - but, what an idle fancy to suppose that she could think or care what mine was! The exclamation mark is Esther's. She has taken a shine to Allan, obviously.
I think Dickens is having a little fun, here, with people looking for ancestors. Royal Welsh blood in ones veins. Wow. Perhaps, in due time, Esther will also acquire some, and be a somebody.
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It has occurred to me (perhaps it has already been mentioned and I missed it.) that the Tom of Tom-all-Alone's was Tom Jarndyce, the Jarndyce who blew his brains out, which persuaded John Jarndyce to dissociate himself from the suit. Is the Tom-all-Alone's slum property the part of the Jarndyce estate that has been paying the costs all these years?
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It was the part of the Jarndyce wealth that was left in trust that has caused all the problems over the years. Esther has it explained to her in Chapter 8. Was it intended irony in Chapter 14, when talk of a court settlement among Ada, Esther and Richard has Ada saying to Richard: 'But I'm afraid if we trust to it, it will make us unhappy.' And Richard replies: 'But, my Ada, we are not going to trust to it! We know better than to trust it.' He's confident of his rights and is going to continue the court action.
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hi there
my vote is to continue with the current number of chapters/days that we are doing?
I too missed the mention of the person helping Miss Flite with her financial situation. I couldn't imagine reading this book as I generally do ...I would be missing so much...a fair number of times I must reread sections to really get the gist...and now reading from the 'Norton Critical Edition of "Bleak House" '...with all the background material...well...but how fascinating a read
on PBS radio stn. recently there was a program about how English changes from place to place with the movement of people and also thru the ages...and this book really has quite a different mode of English from todays published material...I wonder what Dickens would have thought about today's English!!
I seem to remember early in the reading learning that the Jarndyce owned property in central London area that was needing a lot of attention as it was in poor repair ...until the court case money came thru ??!!
what a book
I just noticed there are 10 chapters titled 'Esther's Narrative' & the last chapter is titled 'The Close of Esther's Narrative'
Deb
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Dickens has put so much into this work, hasn't he? Some of it is important to the mystery, some of it is there simply to amuse, to entertain, and some of it provides him the opportunity to comment on the social issues of his time. It does require careful reading.. Can you think of another book like it?
I've recorded Deb's vote to stick to the original five days per installment. Does anyone else have a preference?
I like those Esther Narratives , Deb- especially the ones in which her Guardian takes her into his confidence. In Chapter XVII he has decided it is time to let her know her history. I thought, "at last we're getting to it." At first, I was disappointed. But I put the book down and thought about it for a bit - and concluded that what he has told her is all Jarndyce really knows about her background. Did he reveal anything to her that Esther didn't know already?
I'm going to go get the information on the title - I think it supports what Jonathan and Deb posted yesterday about "Tom All-Alone's" house...
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The Norton Critical Edition includes Dickens' notes for the title of Bleak House. These notes, in his own hand on the usual blue sheets of paper, can be viewed today in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. I really don't think they give away anything important to the plot at ths point...at least I hope not. But they do support Deb's comments on the house in town and Jonathan's connection between Tom-All-Alone's and Tom Jarndyce. I'll type them here, just as I see them.
1. Tom-All-Alone's
The Ruined House
2. Tom-All-Alone's
The Solitary Home
That never knew happiness
That was always shut up
Bleak House Academy
The East Wind
3. Tom-All-Alone's
Building
Factory
Mill
The Ruined House
That got into Chancery
and never got out
4. Tom-All-Alone's
The Solitary House
where the grass grew
5. Tom-All-Alone's
The Solitary House
That was always shut up
never lighted
6. Tom-All-Alone's,
The Ruined Mill,
That got into Chancery
and never got out
7. Tom-All-Alone's
The Solitary House
Where the Wind howled
8. Tom-All-Alone's
House
The Ruined Mill
That got into Chancery
and never got out
9. Tom-All-Alone's
The Ruined House
In Chancery
That got into Chancery
and never got out.
10. Bleak House
and the East Wind
How they both got into Chancery
and never got out
____________________
Bleak House
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Do you think that his careless attitude regarding his education and future prospects is due
to the Chancery suit or to the educational system of his time? Would he be this way even
had he not had those prospects?
JoanP
Is it really a case of either/or, JOAN? I think both elements contributed to Richard's
attitude. But no, I don't think he would have this kind of approach to life without the
exectation of wealth. He would have known early on that he must find some way to make his
living.
Ah, Mrs. Woodcourt, mother of the young surgeon who has been drifting lightly in the
background of the story. She is immensely proud of her lineage from Morgan ap-Kerrig,
a Welsh ancestor. I always love stories of Welsh history and was sad to learn Morgan is
entirely fictional. :(
Mr. Woodcourt, though generous and compassionate, is not at all wealthy. As PatH says,
he is taking employment in the hopes of advancing his career. All of which continues to let
us know, gradually, what a fine fellow he is. I am persuaded that he will be the one to gain
Esther's love. Dickens has given us enough clues to suggest that, I think.
I think Esther is also quite correct, JONATHAN, in suspecting that Mrs. Woodcourt was
trying to tactfully let Esther know that she was not a suitable prospect for her son. But like
so many mothers, I think her own expectations for her son are much higher than is reasonable from a worldly viewpoint.
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I agree about Richard. Nothing in life has forced him to buckle down to working at anything important. Had he always known he had to make a living or starve, he might not have become a world-beater, but he would have been more responsible.
There is a crucial difference between Richard and Skimpole. Both are unrealistic about money, but Richard only spends money he actually has. When he pays 5 pounds for a fancy waistcoat, he can do so because he is "in funds" that summer, not because he has found a tailor who doesn't know any better than to give him credit. When he gives all his money to Neckett to keep Skimpole out of jail, he then feels he won't be able to spend anything for a while. Maybe he didn't earn it (I assume his parents had made some provision for him, probably dealt out by Jarndyce under court supervision) but at least it's his actual money he's spending. To me, that's a vital character difference.
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Pat do you think Richard has living parents? I cannot tell but my impression was they were all three wards that were taken in by John Jarndyce - I am not remembering any mention of where Ada or Richard lived before joining Esther on their journey to Bleak House.
There is a difference isn't there between Skimpole and Richard - I just get the impression that Richard not only is fixated on the outcome of Jarndyce versus Jarndyce but I do not get the impression he has passion for anything in life - including Ada - oh I think he is smitten but not in the way of giving up everything for her or anything in his life.
But yes, there does not appear to be anything conniving about Richard where as Skimpole appears to be thinking all the time how to justify blowing through someone's life licking up all the drippings and then some. Not too different than the Chancery.
And so we have a visual showing us what the actions or rather inaction of the Chancery does to a case in the form of Tom-All-Alone's - and more interesting is that is where our beloved Jo finds shelter that would not be available to him if the buildings were maintained. Sounds too much like the similar story of Mr. Gridley whose life is "All-Aone's" taking on the care of the two younger children while Charlotte works.
And so Mr. Woodcourt is off to find his fortune or at least a living at his profession in the east - I wonder if he meets or becomes John Jarndyce's east wind.
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Right, Barb, Richard must be an orphan, but in his social class his parents probably had money to leave him, and probably had set up some system for doling it out until he was of age. It can't be enough to live on permanently, though, or he wouldn't have to find a profession. I think you're right about no passion.
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'I think he is smitten but not in the way of giving up everything for her or anything in his life.' Says Barb, about Richard's love for Ada.
Isn't that very hypothetical? He has nothing to give up. It's asking too much at this stage of their romance. Is there anything in the 'working notes' and 'plan sheets'?
How interesting to read of all the work Dickens put into plotting his novel. Deciding on a title was quite an exercise. Notice the refrain that runs through many of the options: "the house that got into Chancery and never got out'
Could the notes be a spoiler for the reader? Seeing how the author considers many options, and calculates the narrative consequences.
JoanP asks a good question. Do we know why Mr Woodcourt is off to China or India? We have every reason to wonder. Mrs Woodcourt has him (maybe) finding a rich wife in India.
What does seem certain to me, is that the author wanted him out of the way for a bit.
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I saw little snippets of the PBS version of Bleak nHouse a few years ago: not enough to ever figure out the plot. The only thing I remember is the actress who played Lady Dedlock. Don't know her name, but she had exactly the feel of the Lady dedlock in the book -- dark, mysterious, aloof, you always wanted to know more about her and what was under that facade.
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JoanK - the lady is usually aloof - but seeing her out at night in disguise in that part of town - somehting has shaken her out of her usual coolness or boredom. Does she feel threatened? We're told that the steps on the Ghost's Walk in Lincolnshiire is exceptionally loud this night. Does this mean that disgrace is about to come to the Leicester name - because of this outing? Did anyone see her...besides Jo?
Jonathan, I certainly hope the title suggestions weren't a spoiler. I think that Dickens was working on a title all along - it wasn't until he decided on the ending that he came up with the title, Bleak House. When the installments came out, the readers didn't see the titles he was considering, did they? Nor did they know that Tom-All-Alone's was almost the title of the book...
Barbara - in the beginning of the book in the third chapter of the first installment when Esther, Ada and Richard meet in Mr. Kenge's office -
They each have prospects. Wouldn't it be funny if the case was decided in Ada's favor, and not Richard's?- and he had to pay costs?
Does anyone remember if the cousins are related to John Jarndyce? Cousins?
Interesting that both young men, Richard and Allan have chosen the same profession to improve themselves.. - both will have to work hard to become officers - ship doctors. Did you think that Richard was going to apply himself under the guidance of the Bayham Badgers?
Babi asked if we thought the case was going to be settled before the book ends. What is your guess?
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Richard and Ada are distantly related to John Jarndyce. In the first chapter, when the question is brought up in Chancery, he is described as "He is a cousin, several times removed. I am not at the moment prepared to inform the court at what exact remove he is a cousin, but he is a cousin."
I'm guessing the case will be settled before the book ends, but judging from Dickens' remarks, starting in the first chapter, I doubt it will do anybody any good.
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I don’t think Jarndyce and Jarndyce is ever going to be resolved at all, let alone to anyone’s satisfaction! It seems to me that too many people involved in the law as lawyers and such are involved and derive their livelihood from it. They have an interest n keeping it going, so they can keep their income.
I don’t think that Richard’s careless attitude regarding his education and future prospects is due to the Chancery suit or to the educational system of his time. I think it is his personality. I am sure that other young gentlemen with his educational background are gainfully employed. I cannot explain why Richard is the way he is any more than I can explain why Mr. Skimpole is the way he is.
Barbara, with regards to more characters, we still haven’t met Mr. Bucket, a detective, who I would expect to be a major character. I have no idea where this story is going! It is quite the journey trying to figure it out!
I still like the current pace of the reading and discussion.
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Oh my Laura - a Detective - that sounds ominous - have two more chapters from this package to read - I wonder if the paper it was published in was sold by subscription - do you think some folks had the paper with the story delivered to their door? I cannot find anything that says where in this time of history a paper was purchased - anyone have a clue?
When I was a kid there was either the corner tobacco store with all the papers lined up on benches in front with a rock on each pile to hold them from the wind - they were also sold by newsboys who brought them into the bars - thinking about it where ever the men hung out - never in the Drug store or 5 & 10 and only one paper to the owner of the Grocery and Fish store hmmm maybe a left over from when women were not taught to read but were taught to do needlework, cook and take care of the sick. So I wonder where the papers were sold in 1852. I am thinking if there were paper boys Jo would be selling papers rather than sweeping streets hoping for a tip and to find some lost change among the paves.
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I do think there is a good chance that Mr. Woodcourt could find a wife in India. His mother told him “that there were many handsome English ladies in India who went out on speculation.” My book has a footnote stating:
“In the absence of other or better marriage prospects, some daughters were encouraged to seek husbands among the officers stationed in India and the civil servants of the East India Company, whose prosperity made them attractive candidates.”
I read a whole book about women doing just such a thing. It was called East of the Sun. Here’s a link:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/east-of-the-sun-julia-gregson/1100364427?ean=9781439101124&itm=1&usri=east+of+the+sun (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/east-of-the-sun-julia-gregson/1100364427?ean=9781439101124&itm=1&usri=east+of+the+sun)
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Laura, do you really see Allan Woodcourt looking for a wife? I know Dickens gives us little reason to think that there is anything going on between Esther and the young surgeon. His mother is making it clear that blood is more important when considering marriage. Maybe it was his mother's idea that he go to India or Chna. But there's the matter of that nosegay. Caddy seems to be delivering it to Esther - from Woodcourt. Or do you think that he meant it for someone else?
At this point, I agree with Jonathan, Dickens has plans for Woodcourt - but not just yet. Jarndyce has enough on his hands with his two wards, his young cousins.
Everyone suspected Richard was not really interested in medicine, though he liked the idea of sailing. But the family was hopeful when he went off with the Bayham Badgers. I didn't think he'd get out of it quite so fast though - I thought it was funny the way his career at sea came to an end- just as Allan set sail. Unexpected turn of events. -
ps Bucket is a detective - before he comes on the scene, we need a crime.
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Looks like this is a very long soup course or maybe we are into the Fish course with a wet walk by a shoeless Mademoiselle Hortense.
All we get is that Lady D. and her sister went their separate ways - you get the impression that Lady Dedlock and John Jarndyce knew one other quite well and were barely speaking of a shared history.
Dickens did himself proud describing the country side in fine weather and in a storm - his descriptions were so picturesque it was like a camera showing film in my head.
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Joan, I do think the nosegay was from Mr. Woodcourt to Esther. I do think they have feelings for each other. However, he is supposed to be “away a long, long time.” A wife may find him.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illcaddy.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illcaddy.jpg)
Caddy's Flowers
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
VI
VII |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Aug 1852
Sept 1852 |
CHAPTERS
17-19
20-22 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.11-15
Mar.16-20 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illlittlechurch.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illlittlechurch.jpg)
Little Church in the Park
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter XVII Esther's Narrative
1. Do you think that Richard's careless attitude regarding his education and future prospects is due to the Chancery suit or to the educational system of his time? Can you discern what Esther thinks of him?
2. "The virtues of the mothers shall occasionally be visited upon the children, as well as the sins of the fathers." What did Jarndyce mean by this when discussing Ada's future happiness with her? Do you think he knows Ada's father?
3. Did her Guardian reveal any new information to or about Esther, when he told her it was time to discuss her history with her?
4. Do you think we've heard the last of Allan Woodcourt as he heads off to India or China for a long voyage? Do you think he left that nosegay for Esther?
Chapter XVIII Lady Dedlock
1. Esther observes Richard's spending - his magic 'Fortunatus' purse. Do you see Richard's spending habits like Skimpoles' or do you see a difference?
2. Do you think there is more to the animosity between John Jarndyce's friend, Boythorn and Sir Leicester, than the disputed property line? Why are Jarndyce and the girls heading out to Lincolnshire to meet up with Boythorn?
3. How does Dickens heighten the intensity in the much anticipated meeting between Esther and Lady Dedlock in the little country church in Lincolnshire? How would you describe their reactions to one another when they came face to face?
4. What new information regarding a history between Jarndyce and Lady Dedlock is revealed at the end of this scene?
Chapter XIX Moving On
1. Did you expect Jo to have a hard time on the streets with that gold coin he received from Lady Dedlock? Why did the constable bring him to the Snagbys'? Is there any place in the world where Jo can move on?
2. What brought Mr. Guppy to the Snagbys' parlor, just in time to hear Mrs. Chadband's surprising revelation?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Good morning, Laura! You're up early - first one here. You're right of course - Mr. Woodcourt is going to be away for a good long time. Mr. Dickens has not spent as much time on him as he has with minor characters, has he? There is that nosegay, but that's really not much, is it? Do you get the impression that Esther might be destined for old maidenhood? She doesn't know how to ...to flirt - to let a young man kno that she takes notice of him, or that she welcomes his attention. Which reminds me - where's Mr. Guppy? Is he still stalking? Or "lovesick", as Jude sees him? Or has his attention waned..
I had such high hopes when this Installment arrived - that at least some of the mysteries would be revealed. That's not to say I didn't enjoy this issue. John Jarndyce feels compelled to reveal Esther's history to her. Is this because they are going to Lincolnshire? Does Esther know anymore now than she did before their talk? Has her Guardian told her everything he knows?
Why this trip to Lincolnshire, so near to the Dedlock's home? Barbara, I feel we went beyond the soup course when it was revealed that John Jarndyce and Lady D. had a shared history, didn't you?
And yes, I think we all need to keep an eye on Mademoiselle Hortense as well, Barb. Dickens seems to be enjoying these big scenes in Lincolnshire, doesn't he?
Looking forward to everyone's impressions after reading these pages. Hope you are getting caught up, Sally -
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BARB, I believe the fact that Ada and Richard are wards of John Jarndyce means they
are orphans. There is never any hint of keeping in touch with other family, so I
assume there was none.
Your comment got me to thinking, JONATHAN. Now, I'm guessing Woodcourt was removed
from the scene so that Dickens could develop other story lines before picking up on Esther/Woodcourt again. Otherwise, the readers would be expecting some further developments there.
I would like to believe that Richard will stick with his latest choice of profession, JOANP, but I can't. There has been no real change in his attitude that I can see.
LAURA, sounds very much like the 'mail-order brides' that went West for husbands after the civil war. So many of the young men had been killed back East, that prospects were very poor indeed.
Did anyone else find Mlle. Hortense' action as disturbing as I did? The woman has such intense, emotional reactions. It's a bit like disturbing a hornet's nest.
Mr. Jarndyce and his friend Boythorn are such very different a persons. Boythorn is loud, energetic, full of life, vigor, and violently exaggerated opinions. He might be intolerable, if he did not laugh so heartily at himself. I find I like him, noisy as he is.
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I propose another mystery.
Where did Richard and Ada spend their childhhod?
Why are they now wards of Mr. Jarndyce?
These questions come my way because Dicken's gives us so much info. on Esther's background and so little on theirs.
If we knew for sure that it was Richard's schooling that made him the way he is or some character flaw? Or both. Dicken's does say that there are many young men like Richard but what exactly happened that made him develop in this way?
Yes as was pointed out , Rick differs in character from Skimpole in that he only spends what he has and doesent occur debt.Yet he is still very young and perhaps we will seehim become more responsible.
On another topic I think that there were always newsboys selling papers in London and there
were little stands that sold papers as well.If you watch the Sherlock Holmes on PBS that is often the opening scenes. Boys shouting
READ ALL ABOUT IT!! BODY FOUND IN THE THAMES!!
Besides this I read somewhere that during the 1850s the British Postal System was becoming highly developed so many periodicals (monthlies) went out by mail.
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ah - ;) no pony express ::) but good info thanks - that matches the picture of English life shown to us in Lark Rise to Candleford which must be around the same time since the railroad was well on its way since 1830 with the greatest number of track laid hitting it peak in 1860.
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Y'all find such interesting detail for comment and make such good points. What a tasty, appetising soup. Very promising. Dickens is sure to serve up a fantastic main course. When do we start looking for motivation? Or do we continue to wonder about character?
I'm going to differ with you, Jude, about Dickens giving us so much info on Esther. What do we know about her other than what she herself has told us? Is she modest, or is she boastful. And as if we don't have enough characters, she herself is seen as many people. As least everyone sees her differently at different times. For one she is Dame Durden. For another turns into Mother Hubbard. Then she becomes Mrs Shipton. 'My dear Minerva' (wisdom?) says Richard. Who were these people? And John Jarndyce frequently calls her 'little woman'. Is he suggesting maturity?
She certainly reads everyone else. On Richard: 'the uncertainties and delays of the Chancery suit had imparted to his nature something of the careless spirit of a gamester, who felt that he was part of a great gaming system.'
Nothiing is lost on the ever alert Esther. Such as Mr Jarndyce's thoughtful comment, aimed at Ada, but surely meaning Esther: 'I think it must be somewhere written that the virtues of the mothers shall, occasionally, be visited on the children....'
By now we have to consider Lady D in that role, don't we?
JoanP asks: 'Did anyone see her, besides Jo? We're told, near the end of Chapter 16, that Mr Tulkinghorn did not see her as she passed his window. That woman, 'an upper servant by her attire, yet, in her air and step...she is a lady.' Neither did she look at Mr T's window.
She read about little Jo in the newspaper. Everybody knows little Jo. Hers wasn't the first tip. He was getting them from Nemo all the time.
Mlle Hortense could have murder on her mind, being replaced like that.
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BARB: "Now, I'm guessing Woodcourt was removed
from the scene so that Dickens could develop other story lines before picking up on Esther/Woodcourt again. Otherwise, the readers would be expecting some further developments there."
That's exactly what I thought. In fact, he may have meant to leave her unmarried, and when he saw the reactions to her thought he'd better insert a husband.
What do you all think of Hortense? Is she a bit of a stock figure? The sly frenchwoman?
We'll see her again, soon. And meet the mysterious Bucket! I can't wait.
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Hortense is somewhat of a stock figure (the volatile foreigner). I see her as a stock plot device too. She is angry and revengeful because she has been displaced. I'm guessing that somewhere down the road she is going to get even by revealing something or doing something that will mess up Lady Dedlock.
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JoanK that was Babi that remarked about Woodcourt being set aside for awhile - Woodcourt appears to be just one more ribbon to this story that we must follow to find the gift at the other end...
I Just thought it was comical imagining Hortense sloshing shoeless through the wet grass - and you just knew the grass had to be uneven and not like a manicured lawn so probably a foot high in places - there were no electric lawnmowers - not only wet feet but the bottom of her dress would be wet and stained from the wet grass - nothing like hurting yourself because of a hot temper. But then to see Lady D. just leave her there - oh my -
I was having fun with Dickens description of hot weather and the 6 week vacation taken during the season of heat. Changed it up to fit Austin but then we would not shut up tight anything leaving doors open for the slightest breeze unless the building was air conditioned - but it was fun using his litany to describe - this time he outdid himself. Not sure about this chapter - it almost seemed like a filler letting things marinate a bit.
We did see the same not knowing where we want the homeless except to move on - many towns still ask them to move on and the few that have some accommodations require they not sit on the sidewalk or lay on benches or sit for a time in the parks - we really have no solutions now any better than 1852 London do we...
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Jonathan
We disagree about Esther. I feel I know her better than any other character .
Because of that I had to write a ditty to convince you that you too know her quite well.She is, it seems, destined to be the main figure in the story.
Esther
This lady we can't roast.
She doesn't ever boast.
Eats her jam only on toast
Never from her spoon.
No man can make her swoon.
Always so prim and proper,
Really who can top her?
She's gold , others copper.
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:D :D :-* ;)
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I was also curious about those nicknames for Esther, JONATHAN. I did some checking. It seems
that Dame Durden was from a traditional song, a name for a housewife. Mother Shipton was
an even more interesting,...and real...person. Here's a link about her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Shipton
I'm wondering now, if I could find those instances where Esther was called Mrs. Shipton, if they
were occasions when she had made some prediction as to the outcome of some situation.
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Good morning, Babi!
I've a footnote which describes the terms the members of the household affectionately call Esther -
"Nicknames referring to folklore mother-figures. The fairy who brushes the cobwebs off the sky is Cobweb, in Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream - one of the fairies whose task is to look after the needs of others. Mrs. Shipton, usually called Mother Shipton, was a Welsh prophetess whose predictions were popular in the early nineteenth century. Mother Hubbard, who attend to the needs of her dog... Dame Durden - heroine of a song about a countrywoman who employed five manservants who mated with her five maid servants on St. Valentine's Day."
Babi, let's watch to see if this describes Esther when the others refer to her as Mrs.Shipton. Here's one example - When she brought up the subject of Richard's career - asked him if he'd thought of a more congenial pursuit, he called her Mrs. Shipton and told her he'd been thinking of the law.
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I see Jude is up to it again - admirably defending Esther's solid gold qualities. ;) Jude, you know Esther so well. Was her reaction to meeting Lady Dedlock in that little church enough to indicate to you that Esther, on some level, recognizes her as her mother? Or was it simply that her face reminded her of her godmother's - and we know that Miss Barbary's sister gave birth to Esther? Do we know for certain that Lady Dedlock and Miss Barbary are sisters?
We have to watch Dickens - he's the master of suggestion. I'm reminded of the last private talk between Esther and her Guardian. Mr. Jarndyce explains the letter he had received nine years ago from a lady in seclusion, about an orphan girl then 12 years old.
Ada and Richard are orphans...cousins of John Jarndyce, and both are parties of the giant Jarndyce lawsuit. But Esther, what of Esther? Who is Esther? Do we have any real facts, yet?
In the third and final chapter of this Installment, we are left with a rather startling revelation from an unlikely source, a new character, who hasn't had much to say until now.... Do you think we are getting somewhere at last?
And then there's a matter of Hortense...angry Hortense. Will she turn on Lady Dedlock? Lady D, who shows such interest - in those young girls - - Rosa and then Ada? (Why do you suppose LadyD showed such interest in Ada and Rosa - and hardly a glance at Esther?)
The outrage - leaving Hortense out in the rain...
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Esther's face to face encounters with Lady Dedlock are interesting. First, there is Esther's strong agitation and jumble of confused thoughts on first seeing Lady D. in church--a pretty strong hint of their probable connection. Second, we finally get a description of Lady D. from inside the head of another character. Sheltering in the lodge, Esther finds her very beautiful, and "She was as graceful as she was beautiful; perfectly self-possessed; and had the air, I thought, of being able to attract and interest anyone, if she had thought it worth her while."
One wonders how often she thinks it worth her while.
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Beware, Barb. That 'filler' may turn out to be the glue holding it all together. The hints and suggestions are really scattered about. And I don't have to remind you that symbols are hidden everywhere. Would Dickens have been allowed to dally in Austin? Of course he was always on the move, but noticed everything in passing.
Esther. She doesn't ever boast. She's so prim and proper. And even if she did, why stop her. She does seem overwhelmed by strange feelings in the vicinity of Lady Dedlock. Is it the orphan or the daughter in her?
She does tell us a lot about herself. And the names she is given by others tell just as much. She is so helpful to others, gets so involved in everyone's affairs, and is concerned about their welfare. I'm beginning to think she is Dickens' answer to the overly agressive methods of Mrs Jellybe and Mrs Pardiggle. So many acts of kindness.
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JoanP
You asked an interesting question.The answer is dependent on a number of factore.
These are a few of them.("Did Esther, on some level recognize LadyD. as her mother?")
IF Lady Dedlock is her mother...
Did Lady D. come to visit E. when she was an infant.?
If she did visit, what age was E. when those visits stopped?
Did E's Godmother have a photo or a sketch of Lady D. hidden where E. might have seen it?
Was her Godmother Lady D.s sister? If so how much did they resemble each other in face and manner?
Is there something in E's own face that resembles Lady D. in some way?
Sometimes we meet a relative, unknown to us before, and we recognize a family resembalence..
Perhaps not in the exact way the person looks but in the movement of the head or the type of smile or frown.
Perhaps Guppy saw the resembalance in the portrait but wasn't sure if he imagined it. It piqued his curiosity and perhaps his desire for the lovely Esther.
I imagine that Dickens will reveal all eventually.
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Jude...if Esther recognized features in Lady Dedlock's face - from portraits that she'd seen before - or from a family resemblance (Miss Barbary), I have to wonder why Lady D reacts not at all upon meeting Esther.
I think it's funny, Pat, that Lady Dedlock finds not much worth her while, but she did seem taken with both Rosa and Ada. She didn't have the same reaction to Esther - as Esther had to her.
Jonathan, I've a note from Norton that Dickens based Esther on his sister-in-law, Georgina Hogarth, who excelled in managing his household. (His wife Catherine was not skilled in this area.) It was reported by a Leslie Staples that Miss Hogarth herself, late in life, remarked that although she strongly disliked to be identified with the character Agnes in David Copperfield, she did not object to being likened to Esther in Bleak House.
The inscription on her tombstone reads : 'In loving memory of GEORGINA HOGARTH, "AUNTY", Sister-In-Law of Charles Dickens.'
She was the younger sister of Dickens's wife Kate and, in spite of the breakdown of the marriage, remained in his household until his death. The novelist's will stipulated : "I give to my dear sister-in-law Georgina Hogarth the sum of £8,000 free from legacy duty ; all my personal jewellery and all the little familiar objects from my writing-table and my room, and all my private papers whatsoever and wheresoever, and I leave her my grateful blessing as the best and truest friend man ever had."
ps I can't find any indication that "Aunty" ever married...
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While we still don’t know much about Esther, I feel like I know enough to feel that she will not become and old maid. Even though she is quiet, she is competent, she is not overbearing, she is not high maintenance, and she genuinely cares for others. People recognize that in her, and I feel certain that she would be the ideal wife for many men.
I am not convinced that Lady Dedlock is Esther’s mother; just not enough information for me yet. It doesn’t seem like we know anymore about Esther from what Mr. Jarndyce revealed. We only had a few small clues revealed to us in this section of reading. I am ready for some more plot development!
Mlle. Hortense is like a steaming pot ready to explode. I am keeping an eye on her, but for what, I am not exactly sure.
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It seems like seeing Lady D for the first time in church, Esther thinks of herself looking in the mirror when she was very young. I am interpreting Esther's reaction as her recognizing--not on a fully conscious level--some of her own features in Lady D.
I think that Lady D purposely ignores Esther either to hide her secret or because she has very confused feelings about Esther. If she is Esther's mother, did she not know where Esther was living/is living now?
It sounds like Lady D, and her sister, knew Mr. Jarndyce long ago. Did Mr. Jarndyce not suspect that the person writing to him to ask him to be the guardian of the young orphan girl, was the sister of Lady D, who he knew fairly well? She said she was writing to him under an assumed name.
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When Jarndyce told Esther "all he knew" about her, I had the definite feeling he was actually keeping something back, probably the identity of her mother. He knows or suspects.
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Good example, JOANP, and does suggest the idea Mrs. Shipton nickname was used when Esther
guesses what Richard might be thinking. Actually, one doesn't have to be a prophetess
to guess what someone you know well will do, or is thinking.
I think Lady Dedlock would have loved to have a daughter. Sweet, pretty young ladies
like Rosa and Ada appeal strongly to her. As to Esther, perhaps the similarities in
appearnce to Lady Dedlock herself are a painful reminder of what she lost.
I think we must assume Mr. Jarndyce would have recognized the true name of Esther's
guardian. There would otherwise be no point in using an assumed name. She must know
Jarndyce to be a generous and philanthropic man as she confidently writes to him
about Esther's future, without telling him exactly who Esther is.
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These people may be better actors than we'd expect. Lady D. shows very little interest in Esther - and yet has been drawn to Rosa and Ada - we had to note her extreme boredom - except when she notices these two girls. Is she really able to hide her emotions if she recognizes her daughter - in the same way Esther reacted to her?
And what of Jarndyce, Marcie? If he knows the identity of Esther's mother, did he set up this visit to Boythorn's to see how they would react to one another? Would he be that cruel to Esther?
I'm going to say that neither one is going to win an Oscar - I don't think that Jarndyce knows anything more about Lady Dedlock in connection with Esther. PatH, he might have been holding something back when talking to her, but I really don't think he knew that Esther's aunt, Miss Barbary, was Lady Dedlock's sister.
And maybe you're right, Laura. Maybe Lady Dedlock doesn't recognize Esther because Esther is not her daughter.
Daughter or not, why do you think she (Lady Dedlock) "took a graceful leave of Ada - none of me"(Esther) - before saying her goodbyes to Mr. Jarndyce. I thought that very strange. Even if she didn't know Esther, Lady Dedlock is usually the model of politeness.
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We're posting together, Babi. Can't you picture Dickens readers having this very same conversation as they pool their impressions from these passages? I see Lady Dedlock drawn to these two pretty young girls, knowing she had a daughter about their age , dreaming her daughter would look like one of them.
He sure knows how to "Move On" to the next installment - which he did with the last chapter of this one - "Moving On." I was beginning to wonder why we had to listen to the sermonizing by the pompous Rev. Chadband. I cannot imagine how Mr. Snagsby could stand him - or poor long-suffering Mrs. Chadband for that matter. She knows to keep her mouth shut, rather than give him any opening for a new topic. But suddenly there is a knock on the door - and in marches the constable, with poor Jo...and Mr. Guppy too. The scene is set for the silent Mrs. Chadband to open her mouth and reveal the fact that will make up for the disappointing revelations in the first two chapters - and assure the readers will return for the Seventh Installment.
What else did you learn from Chapter XIX, the Moving On chapter? Are you ready to move on tomorrow?
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hi there
just wanted to get my 2cents worth in before we move on the next group of chapters
the 'Norton' edition makes it easy to pinpoint areas of my interests as they number the lines like "The Odessey" was in Homer's writings from last years classics group
what a climate the area of Britain must be --well stocked orchard...kitchen garden...lime tree walk...cherry trees...peaches...sweet smell of herbs and all kinds of wholesome growth (to say nothing of the neighbouring meadows where the hay was carrying) made the whole air a great nosegay
--the picture Dickens presents including all the senses
Nortons states pg 223 high up, a disused nail and scrap of list
list = cloth am wondering if that was how our word 'list' came to be???
love what must be Mr Boythorn's sense of humoura sentry in a smock-frock, day and night, whose duty was supposed to be, in cases of aggression, immediately to ring a large bell hung up there for the purpose, to unchain a great bull-dog established in a kennel as his ally, and generally to deal destruction on the enemy. Not content with these precautions, Mr Boythorn had himself composed and posted there, on painted boards to which his name was attached in large letters, the following solemn warnings: “Beware of the Bull-dog. He is most ferocious. Lawrence Boythorn.” “The blunderbus is loaded with slugs. Lawrence Boythorn.” “Man-traps and spring-guns are set here at all times of the day and night. Lawrence Boythorn.” “Take notice. That any person or persons audaciously presuming to trespass on this property, will be punished with the utmost severity of private chastisement, and prosecuted with the utmost rigour of the law. Lawrence Boythorn.” These he showed us, from the drawing-room window, while his bird was hopping about his head; and he laughed, “Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha!” to that extent as he pointed them out, that I really thought he would have hurt himself.
I really enjoy what ever Mr. Skimpole has to say...how he rationalizes the world revolves around him and for his interests...good thing we all don't think that way
Mr. Skimpole's remarks...with a straight face I imagine
“ I take it that my business in the social system is to be agreeable; I take it that everybody’s business in the social system is to be agreeable. It’s a system of harmony, in short. Therefore, if you object, I object."
and
“Enterprise and effort,” he would say to us (on his back), “are delightful to me. I believe I am truly cosmopolitan. I have the deepest sympathy with them. I lie in a shady place like this, and think of adventurous spirits going to the North Pole, or penetrating to the heart of the Torrid Zone, with admiration. Mercenary creatures ask, ‘What is the use of a man’s going to the North Pole? What good does it do?’ I can’t say; but, for anything I can say, ...he may go for the purpose — though he don’t know it — of employing my thoughts as I lie here. "
and
they people the landscape for me, they give it a poetry for me, and perhaps that is one of the pleasanter objects of their existence.”
I love the descriptions of 'the storm'. and its aftermath.......watching the storm. It was grand to see how the wind awoke, and bent the trees, and drove the rain before it like a cloud of smoke; and to hear the solemn thunder, and to see the lightning; and, while thinking with awe of the tremendous powers by which our little lives are encompassed, to consider how beneficent they are, and how upon the smallest flower and leaf there was already a freshness poured from all this seeming rage, which seemed to make creation new again.
just beginning chapter 19 today
Deb
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After Skimpole makes this fine speech about "enterprise and Effort", Esther says: "I always wondered on these occasions whether he ever thought of Mrs. Skimpole and the children, and in what point of view they presented themselves to his cosmopolitan mind. So far as I could understand, they rarely presented themselves at all." Humph.
I'm beginning to think that whether he means it that way or not, it's an act of charity toward the rest of the family for Jarndyce to put up with Skimpole. It keeps him out of worse trouble. At least while he's living off the luxury of Jarndyce and Boythorn he isn't buying furniture with money he doesn't have. ;)
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Talk about poetry Bookad - thanks for repeating that for us - you can read the beat in every paragraph so they are like small poems.
While waiting for the storm to abate Lady D. and John Jarndyce are either each very cagy with what they are saying to each other or we can take them at their word and where the person who asked him to take on the care of Esther was concerned for her they did it anonymously - so to surmise it was Lady D. is simply us surmising - we do not know any of the circumstances of the Esther's birth to know what Lady D. does or does not know about her.
Her not knowing what became of Nemo who it does appear to have been someone she loved from her reaction at the cemetery gate coupled with our knowing women of comfortable means were so called sheltered and protected by keeping from them information - and then her character is flittering here and there to engage in fashionable intelligence which is a pursuit of knowledge - if knowledge is denied all the more reason to be driven for knowledge for its own sake however, she may not be the one who asked John Jarndyce to care for Esther - she may not even realize Esther is her child.
If her child is not with her at Chesney Wold that says a child would be an embarrassment to the Dedlock family and so I could see Leicester having a hand in what happened to Esther - as a man much in love with his wife as it says and tied strongly to his family's heritage he would do the 'right' thing so that the family name and his wife were not disgraced.
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As to Lady Ds reaction to Esther...
If I was she I would react in the same way.
What shame,what misgivings must be flowing through her upon seeing the grown and talented Esther who she feels has no need for her.
Although giving up a child feels right at the moment it is done there always remains at least a modicum of sorrow and "what ifs".
Lady D also does not know what will be the reaction of Esther if and when she finds out about her mother. John Jarndyce did not reveal or hint who that mother might be. Esther does not suspect who her mother is and is certainly not really prepared for the revelation. And yet in her inner self she sees something familiar about Lady D.
Dickens is keeping us in suspense as is his wont.
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Yes, he's good at knowing how much to hint and how much to leave unsaid.
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Dazzling quotes, Deb. That last one especially, about the raging storm, ending with fresh flowers and a new creation. That sounds promising to me. A happy ending to this storm of mystification and suspense.
You will enjoy Chapter 19. A brilliant piece of writing. Lawyers turn out to be human beings after all. Courtroom demeanours are shed when they go on vacation. Chancery is deserted, with nothing much happening until the Snagsbys have some company in. Mr and Mrs Chadband.
Jo, the know-nothing crossing sweeper is definitely the star in this chapter. He shares the stage with others but the spotlight is on him. He is harrassed by police, preached to by a minister of religion, and cross-examined by the clever Mr Guppy, who gets just enough information out of him to tantalize the ladies into wanting to know more of another lady seeking out a burial place. Jo does move on, escapes, to have deep thoughts at Blackfriars Bridge about the Cross on St Paul's Cathedral while munching on his crust of bread.
What a shame to read of how everyone got a piece of that 'sov-ring'.
The mother/daughter mystery certainly has us speculating. I liked Laura's reminder that Mlle Hortense is 'like a steaming pot ready to explode'. She has to make way for a younger woman. Lady D seems to be looking for a 'daughter'.
Thanks, JoanP, for the information about Georgina Hogarth. The Dickens' household does sound interesting. I read somewhere recently that Dickens' wife Catherine saved all her letters from her husband with instructions that they be deposited in the British Museum. The world should know that he loved her once.
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We move on tomorrow, so I'd better say something about Moving On. It seems to me in this one Dickens stretches the long arm of coincidence so far he almost pulls it out of its socket.
The policeman, stopping Jo on the street, finds a suspicious amount of money on him. Jo, needs someone to vouch for him. Guppy, happening to be passing by, says that Snagsby knows him well. Everyone goes to Snagsby's, where the Chadbands are taking tea. Jo tells his story of the mysterious woman in a veil, who wants to see Nemo's dwelling place, burial place, and Snagsby's house/office, and gives Jo a sovereign.
Thus the previously secret incident becomes known to a remarkable number of interested parties:
Snagsby, who used to give Nemo work.
Guppy, who is in love with Esther, maybe suspects something about Lady Dedlock, and is part of the law firm of Kenge and Carboy, also interested.
Mrs. Chadband, who had charge of Esther at one point.
I can swallow the others, since they're pretty local, but Mrs. Chadband is a bit much.
Still, it's setting us up for a number of possible plot complications.
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Jude, I’m glad you asked, as I’ve been wondering the same thing – are Lady D’s sister and Esther’s godmother one and the same. Miss Barbary? Who kept saying to the child – “Esther, do this, Esther do that.”
Was it Alice who said,”Curiouser and curiouser?” And so Bleak House has become. Someone mentioned earlier that Dickens doesn’t have characters without a reason for them being there, and that certainly is showing. I was beginning to tire of that pompous old Chadband, until we found out about his wife’s connection with Kenge and Carboy. And that sly Guppy will not let that bit of info go to waste. He has been well-rewarded for his good deed of sticking up for Jo. But, can we trust him? He is becoming something of an enigma.
And poor Jo. True to his knowing nothink. I wondered when Lady D gave him the gold coin if that would get him into trouble.
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PatH: "it's setting us up for a number of possible plot complications."
Yes, that is what we're going to get, I imagine.
And on we go. There will be new questions in the heading. And we get a feel for what lawyers do in the lazy summer when court is not in session.
Some more new characters, and some more new mysteries hinted at in chapter 22. Our list of mysteries will get as long as the book. Luclily, we finally meet our detective, Bucket.
Enjoy!
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Pedlin: "I wondered when Lady D gave him the gold coin if that would get him into trouble."
Yes, she didn't know enough about his circumstances to realize (if she cared) that she was setting him up. He's lucky he didn't get hurt.
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"It was my father's words that propelled me into this read, and I am amazed at the dimension of the world and characters in this novel."
Deb, your observations would have been music to Charles Dickens' ears. Someone who appreciates the music and the poetry of his writing. It's more than the mystery and romance that keeps us turning the pages - though I'll admit they command our interest. Your father prepared you well for Dickens...even though it took you a while to open one of his novels. :D
I'm wondering how many of his readers in 1852 waited impatiently for the next installment to experience the man's command of the language and powers of observation...or were they simply interested in the plot?
Thank you so much for bringing examples in your posts - so we can focus and linger over them like - "...all kinds of wholesome growth (to say nothing of the neighbouring meadows where the hay was carrying) made the whole air a great nosegay."
As Barbara says - "you can read the beat in every paragraph so they are like small poems.
I just want to be sure to thank you and to ask you to continue with these observations. It's easy to read them, but not slow down while going after the plot. When you finish Chapter XIX, we'll look forward to hearing from you. I'd be interested to hear what you think of Mr. Chadband's comments. I need a translation!
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"A happy ending to this storm of mystification and suspense."
Jonathan, I don't think it's too much to expect a happy ending from Dickens. Can you think of a single Dickens' novel that did not end happily? Does happily mean that Esther will find love and marriage?
I can't get past thinking about the parallels between Dickens and his young sister-in-law, Georgina, who efficiently runs his household - and John Jarndyce and his young ward, Esther Summerson who does the same. Both are admiring and loyal and don't expect that much from life. Georgina was content to spend her life in this role - until Dickens died. She said when he died that she did not mind that Dickens based Esther's character on herself. I'm thinking that he approves of this relationship and might just leave Esther with Mr. Jarndyce at the novel's end.
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Georgina didn't mind being Esther, but she did mind being thought to be Agnes in David Copperfield. That leads me to wonder how Dickens' wife felt about being thought to be the witless Dora in David C.
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Dora was David's first wife - Agnes followed married him when Dora died. hmm... There is a story, just a story that tells of a diamond ring Dickens is said to have given to Georgina - before he took up with the young actress, Ellen Ternan, who is the real reason his wife, Catherine Hogarth left him. No wonder Georgina didn't like being cast as Agnes!
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PatH, I am sitting here in front of the computer screen smiling at your post - Dickens "stretches the long arm of coincidence so far he almost pulls it out of its socket..." But don't you love it? Pedln notes - "Dickens doesn’t have characters without a reason for them being there." That is surely evident in the Moving On chapter - and they all have a part in advancing the plot.
Nothing odd about Mrs. Snagsby inviting her favorite clergyman to tea. Nothing unusual in his wife coming along too. She sits quietly throughout, whispering sometimes to Mrs. Snagsby.
Nothing unusual about the constable picking up Jo - only natural that he thinks Jo is a pickpocket...where else would he get those half crowns. When Jo tried to explain - remember Mr. Snagsby had slipped him a half crown - it was not unusual that he told the constable Mr. Snagsby would vouch for him to avoid getting locked up. It wasn't surprising that they borh turned up at the Snagbys'.
Now it starts to stretch - just a little. Mr. Guppy is bored. It's the slow time, summer break. He knows Snagsby - and is interested in what's going on at his door...and since he's also a lawyer with Kenge and Conboy, he begins to question Jo.
Now here comes the stretch - Mrs. Chadband knew Mr. Kenge years before she married her husband. In fact, Mr. Kenge brought her a young girl to care for. Isn't this a great stage moment - the moment she pronounces this little girl's name!
We don't see Mr. Guppy's reaction, do we? That will be for another day. Mr. Chadband wants to meet again with Jo...maybe Mrs. Chadband will expand her story then. I don't know...I'm willing to accept these coincidences, Pat. Life can be stranger than fiction - or something like that. ;)
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It occurs to me, JOANP, that Lady Dedlock sees Esther as a kind of upper level servant
to Ada. If so, then she would take no notice of Esther. Servants were not 'guests',
they were a sort of necessary appendage.
Rev. Chadband does rather set one's teeth on edge, doesn't he? I'm afraid my opinion
of Mrs. Snagsby's intelligence and good sense dropped considerably at this point.
I greatly enjoyed your excerpts, DEB. I can see I did not give them enough attention
as I was reading. I think I was too aggravated by Mr. Skimpole to 'listen' to him properly.
I agree, Mrs. Chadband's history is stretching coincidence quite a bit. But then,
coincidences are part of life, and this bit is bound to be useful to Dickens as we
go along.
I think it would be more accurate to say that things end favorably for Dickens'
favorites, the character he is using as good examples of humanity. Other characters
may end sadly, but nobly, or get their come-uppance...to our applause!
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Well, that's a possible reason for not saying farewell to Esther as she stood there with Ada and John Jarndyce, Babi.
Esther would be a nobody to Lady Dedlock. Ada Clare's name may be familiar to her - she is a Jarndyce cousin after all.
Your comment on Dickens' endings just reminded me of his half-finished Mystery of Edwin Drood, which we discussed here several years ago along with Matthew Pearl's The Last Dickens. I can't wait to see the Masterpiece production of that novel in April. It was maddening - a real mystery, a murder story- never completed. Not only that, but Dickens apparently didn't share his ending with anyone, not even the illustrator. I don't understand what happened to his blue worksheets he usually kept with him as he wrote. Maybe someday they will show up and the guessing can be over as to what really happened to Edwin Drood...
I'm going to keep in mind that "things usually end favorabley for Dickens' favorites" - for Edwin Drood, and for Esther Summerson. Maybe in ways we are not expecting...
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/guppyentertainmen.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/guppyentertainmen.jpg)
Mr. Guppy's Entertainment
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
VII
VIII |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Sept. 1852
Oct. 1852 |
CHAPTERS
20-22
23-25 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.16-20
Mar.21-25 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/smallweedfamily.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/smallweedfamily.jpg)
The Smallweed Family
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter XX A New Lodger
1. What more do we learn about Guppy in this chapter? Why does he call Richard "The Enemy"? What do his relationships with Richard, Smallweed and Jobling say about him?
2. What do the names Guppy, Smallweed, and Jobling tell us about Dickens' attitudes and beliefs.
3. Do you think Jobling moving into Nemo's old room will prove important to the plot? How?
Chapter XXI The Smallweed Family
4. Have you ever known people like the Smallweeds who were old without ever being children? What do you think of Dickens' portrayal of the old couple? What do you think accounts for Dickens' obvious contempt of the Smallweeds? What is the hint that they might have had money about?
5. Who is Mr. George? What is he paying Smallweed for? What does Smallweed mean by "Two good names would be sufficient for my friend in the City"? Why doesn't George supply them? To whom do you think those names belong?
6. Who is the mysterious Captain Hawdon? What incident in the past do you think Dickens is hinting at?
7. Here we have more characters who can't handle money. How are Richard, Skimpole, Jobling, Mr George and Captain Hawdon different in this respect? How the same? What in Dickens' life makes him so interested in how people (mis)handle money? Do you share that interest?
Chapter XXII Mr. Bucket
8. How does the tone of this chapter differ from that of other chapters? What is Dickens doing here? Why does he start with Allegory? What did you think of Bucket's appearance?
9. What is a "feverhouse" Why does Dickens portray the "crowd" as he does?
10. The two women give opposite opinions: one wishing her baby would die, the other that hers had lived. Why does one say :"but we mean the same thing, if we knew how to say it, us two mothers does in our poor hearts".
11. What have Tulkinghorn and Bucket learned from their experiment with Jo? Why are they so interested?
12. How did Bucket handle Jo and Snagsby? Do you think he's a good detective?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Rev. Chadband does rather set one's teeth on edge, doesn't he? I'm afraid my opinion
of Mrs. Snagsby's intelligence and good sense dropped considerably at this point.
Yes, to the first, Babi. I think I’d rather listen to Skimpole than him. And I’m going to have to review Mrs. Snagsby. Right now it seems to me that Mr. Snagsby is a hen-pecked husband.
We don't see Mr. Guppy's reaction,[to Mrs. C’s news] do we? That will be for another day
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JoanP, Guppy must have been in 7th heaven when he heard her, as obsessed with Esther as he is. I’m just starting chp. 21, but isn’t it convenient for Guppy that it’s vacation time and he more or less has Kenge and Carboy all to himself. Richard won’t be paying any attention to him as he’s so caught up in reading J vs. J.
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'Did his readers wait impatiently for the next installment?'
Some of them fired off letters to the author with all kinds of suggestions. Some no doubt thought this or that was a stretch of the truth, or likelihood. I believe Dickens was trying to show what a small world it really is. Even London.
Now if Mr Tulkinghorn, needing a wife, eventually gets Esther, and Mr Guppy, violently jealous, murders Mr Tulkinghorn....
Three hundred pages into the novel and still no action! It reminds me of the theater patron watching a drama with much clever dialogue and provocative ideas, complaining in a loud voice after the second act: Why doesn't the cast stop talking and get on with the play.
I think you are all being too hard on Mr Chadband. Trying so hard to raise the spiritual level of those around him. Learning lessons, seeing lessons himself in everything around him. Seeing the noble soul in someone like Jo. Everything he says comes with a biblical echo. A dedicated man in his own way.
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Jonathan: "Now if Mr Tulkinghorn, needing a wife, eventually gets Esther, and Mr Guppy, violently jealous, murders Mr Tulkinghorn....
Three hundred pages into the novel and still no action!"
I laughed and laughed! Good for you -- I'll bet we could have a great time making up endings in the style of various authors. Mmmm. How about a "three Musketeers" version where Guppy, Smallweed, and Jobling go around fighting duels. Guppy could duel with Tulkinghorn over Esther. Richard could challange Guppy, but forget to turn up. Mr. J could be everyones second.
But where is our D'Artagnan?
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Or a Jane Austen version, where Esther, having refused Guppy, becomes convinced of his worth? NAAAAAH.
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Chadband is dedicated in his own way, but except for a limited following, he has no feel for the people around them, what will move them, how they are reacting, and he's horribly long-winded. Guster knows him "...to be endowed with the gift of holding forth for four hours at a stretch...." He sees the humanity in Jo (which a lot of them don't) but he has no idea how he is tormenting the poor boy. After about a page of talk, "At this threatening stage of the discourse, Jo, who seems to have been gradually going out of his mind, smears his right arm over his face and gives a terrible yawn." Chadband suggests that Jo come to see him on a regular basis to be harangued. "Jo, whose immediate object seems to be to get away on any terms, gives a shuffling nod."
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Here I was writing away while you were having more fun being clever. What about Proust, where the sentences will all be a page long and in the end it will all seem pointless?
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;D
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What do we think of our three small lawyers (Guppy, Smallweed and Jobling)? Why are they so small?
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"Proust, where the sentences will all be a page long and in the end it will all seem pointless"...pointless and without a period in sight, Pat?
I think Guppy is becoming a bit more into focus in this new chapter...but weren't you expecting him to use this new information about Miss Esther Summerson in some way? WHen you think about it, what could he do? At minimum, I thought we'd see him questionning Mrs. Chadband about Esther. Instead, we see him dining at the Slam Bang with two rather down on their luck characters. Jobling has lost his job...and Smallweed, well I can't figure out what he's doing yet. Does he work for his father in Mr. Smallweed's questionable, though profitable occupation?
Jude won't agree, but I really don't see him as that love-sick puppy, pining over Esther. Has he given up following her around? Stalking her? She's part of the Jarndyce family in a way - and they're in a class above him. The fact that Richard is now working in Kenge's law office is also intimidating...he feels that Richard will "depose" him. But the question at hand, why is he pal-ing around with Smallweed and Jobling? Is he paying for their dinner too? I see Mr. Guppy as a climber. I think he's going to use both of them to gain information to his own advantage. But I can't figure what that is.
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What do we think of our three small lawyers (Guppy, Smallweed and Jobling)? Why are they so small?
Good question, JoanK. I hadn't noticed their stature. We know that Dickens did not like lawyers. Perhaps that is why they are short!
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I knew that the Smallweed family is small - all of them! What an odd family! Grandma and Grandpa, Bart and Judith...you couldn't help but notice them. Was Guppy short in stature? I didn't remember that about him - just that there was something going on with his hair all smashed down. Jobling is another story. He seemed to grow as each new dish was served at the Slam Bang....but I thought that reference had to do with his feeling better as his hunger was satisfied. I remember being puzzled at his age too. How old IS Mr. Jobling? Both Smallweed and Jobling look UP to our Guppy. Maybe because he has a job, a steady income? I think he's using their admiration...I think he's using them.
The only reason I see him spending time with these two - is to use them for some plan he has in mind, not known to us. He's managed to place one of them in Snagsby's office and another in Krook's Rag and Bottle. Don't you wonder why?
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Interesting question about the names Guppy, Smallweed and Jobling. I don't exactly
see 'attitude' in the choices, but more of 'identification'. These are more minor
characters with perhaps 'small' 'job' contributions to make to the story. Guppy...
a small, fairly common, but popular fish.
Oh, and definitely yes! Jobling moving into Nemo's old rooms is bound to have a
purpose. Dickens would never have made a point of it otherwise.
We do seem to have at least three hen-pecked husbands in this plot. I wonder why
that is an issue with Dickens? He has at least as many children as Jellyby, but he
is far from defeated. And what little I know about his wife does not give the
impression of a domineering, or even particularly capable woman. That would seem to
eliminate her as Mrs. Jellyby, or Mrs. Snagsby who capably runs their business. So,
why all the timid husbands?
JOANK, I loved that bit about Richard challenging Guppy, but failing to show up! How
perfect.
You know, PatH, Chadband's harangue of Jo struck me as a grandstand play for the
admiration of his listeners. They were supposed to admire his fervent interest in
the boy and be moved by his pastoral concern. Yeah, right. IMO, his interst in Jo
was the opportunity to strut, orate and preen. Obviously, another character I really
don't like.
Speaking of awful characters, old Mr. Smallweed is another. Talk about a perfect
candidate for murder! He joins my short list of potential victims, which so far
only contains Mr. Tulkinghorn. The latter keeps poking his nose into the affairs of
others, and taking cruel action against anyone who dares annoy him. Anybody care to
add to the list?
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Unbelievable drama in the way Dickens tells it. Doesn't he make a scene out of the legal triumvirate appeasing their appetites at tha Slap Bang dining house. Of course, Mr Guppy has a plan. Of course he pays for the dinner. Jobling is broke, and I can't see a Smallwood ever picking up a tab. They're just amazingly fast at figuring costs and dividends. Poor Grandma Smallwood, driven crazy by all the numbers she has heard all her life.
Jobling seems to be on the run. His lifestyle, I take it, has gotten him into a lot of debt. Guppy has found him a place to stay, at Krook's, a source of income with with Mr Snagsby, and a false name to secure anonymity. He's being planted at Krook's. There's stuff at Krook's that's worth reading. Even Krook knows that. Jobling could be helpful. Just as he was with the portrait of Lady Dedlock at Chesney Wold. Jobling with his collection of pictures is an expert in a social who's who sort of way. Knows many things about socialites.
Guppy is still in love. Has to be, with the many references to those 'chords in the human mind.' Strange. Esther, too, once mentioned an early chord. Guppy declines to take his dinner guests to the theater. Bad memories from the time he was following Esther around.
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Yes, I agree that Guppy, our small fish, is up to something! What, I'm not sure.
I hated the picture of the two old people in Chapter 21. How did you all feel? And the Mr. George episode confused me completely. Who are the names that he refuses to give up? mIt sounds more like he's paying blackmail than for a loan. but why? Who is he? AAAAARRRRGH!
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There was only one little clue...the big man in London - his last name begins with "D"...I can think of only one name so far that starts with "D" - but nah, it couldn't be him - or could it?
OH...I missed that - it was Jobling who turned up at Chesney Wold with Guppy?
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Yes, Jobling remarks on that (he wasn't named at the time). I checked back to see which one recognized the picture. It was Guppy.
What's Guppy up to? He seems to be planting Jobling at Krook's deliberately. Is getting Jobling copying work from Snagsby also part of a plot? When you come to think of it, the copying of legal documents by a bunch of miscellaneous outsiders is a breach of security that could lead to lots of trouble. Perhaps Nemo had already seen something he shouldn't.
Jobling and Smallwood seem ideally suited for whatever Guppy wants. They're old acquaintances, so Guppy knows what he's dealing with,
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Don't all attack Guppy. If he is a villain, he is , as his name implies, a very small one.
What I want to mention here is one of the worst horrors Dickens has yet to present us with,
The girl Judy (Sensitivity because she bears my name?) who is the result of a childhood without toys or stories. A child that doesn't know how to laugh. Such barreness.
This whole family gave me the willies. The Father throwing the pillow at the Mother. The Mother
sleeping through it all. This is the ultimate nightmare family. Dickens brings these horrors to life and makes me aware that there are people like this. I felt as if I was in anightmare while reading these pages.
I wonder why Dickens gave us these people to ponder. Perhaps just because he could. Or because he was upset and writing of these creeps calmed him down,
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JUDE: "A child that doesn't know how to laugh. Such barreness".
No one could mistake YOU for thar Judy! Yes, each member of that family is creepier than the last.
The man in London whose name begins with "D". When I read it, I assumed that there was no man in London: Smallweed was using that excuse to avoid any argument or taking resposibility. And that "D" stood for the Devil. But maybe I'm wrong. Could it be .....?
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particulars but they drive me nuts till I find out what they mean
A blue bag as in In short, in his bringing up he has been so nursed by Law and Equity that he has become a kind of fossil imp, to account for whose terrestrial existence it is reported at the public offices that his father was John Doe and his mother the only female member of the Roe family, also that his first long-clothes were made from a blue bag.
A bag made of blue fabric, used by law students as a sort of briefcase for carrying legal documents and occasionally garments.
Near the end of the chapter when Mr. Weevle/Mr. Jobling hangs his Divinities of Albion - Albion is the oldest known name of the island of Great Britain.
tapis - Tapestry or comparable material used for draperies, carpeting, and furniture covering.
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Looks like Mrs. Perkins and Piper see no good in Mr. Weevle assuming he is after Krook's money.
I think Guppy is always thinking and is a two edge sword - I think he sees how he can help another down and out lawyer while also helping himself, he hopes, to inside information that can see his position elevated at the firm.
At this point I do not see anything that indicates his curiosity about Krook is more than curiosity about secrets Krook may have if only the secret as to who Nemo was and also, that Jobling will be reading the papers from another law firm that again could be beneficial to Guppy - We see the connection between Jobling, Guppy, the trip to Chesney Wold and the painting of Lady D. but I do not think Guppy has put any of that together yet and is simply a very ambitious man who will go to any end to get some insider information that can further his career.
In the very beginning I think this bit helps us see Guppy has no plot - just stabbing in the dark looking for something, anything.
He has blunted the blade of his penknife and broken the point off by sticking that instrument into his desk in every direction...
...He is clear that every such person wants to depose him. If he be ever asked how, why, when, or wherefore, he shuts up one eye and shakes his head. On the strength of these profound views, he in the most ingenious manner takes infinite pains to counterplot when there is no plot, and plays the deepest games of chess without any adversary.
Oh yes, Guppy cannot be named for the fish - Robert John Lechmere Guppy discovered this tiny fish in Trinidad in 1866 - and so with the sur name Guppy it must be a name that had been around in 1852.
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Guppy eats with his mother and they have Lobster and lettuce
1845 cookbook Modern Cookery of Private Families, Eliza Acton
Take off the large claws of the lobster, hold each of them firmly with the edge upwards, and with a quick light blow from a cutlet bat or ought else convenient for the purpose, crack the shell without disfiguring the fish. Split the tail open with a very sharp knife and dish the lobster in the manner shown in the engraving, either with, or without a napkin under it. When the soft part of the body is required to mix with the dressing, take it out before it is served, and add it to the remoulade.
For lobster salad, you must have lettuce instead of celery. Cut up the two cabbage heads of lettuce as small as possible.
REMOULADE. This differs little from an ordinary English salad-dressing.
Pound very smoothly indeed the yolks of two or three hard-boiled eggs with a teaspoonful of mustard, half as much salt, and some cayenne, or white pepper. Mix gradually with them, working the whole well together, two or three tablespoonsful of oil and two of vinegar.
Should the sauce be curdled, pour it by degrees to the yolk of a raw egg, stirring it well round as directed for the Mayonnaise.
A dessertspoonful of eschalots, or a morsel of garlic, very finely minced, are sometimes pounded with the yolks of eggs for this sauce. A spoonful of tarragon, cucumber, or eschalot-vinegar, may be added with very good effect; and to give it increased relish, a teaspoonful of cavice, or a little of Harvey's sauce, and a dessertspoonful of chili vinegar may be thrown into it.
This last is an excellent addition to all cold sauces, or salad-dressings.
A few minutes before it is to be eaten, pour the dressing over the lobster and lettuce and mix it very well. Serve before lettuce become flabby.
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The beginning of the next chapter
but where there yet lingers the stump of an old forest tree whose flavour is about as fresh and natural as the Smallweed smack of youth.
In Victorian times natural means, a mentally handicapped person.
photo and description of baize - http://www.historicstyle.com/classic_fabrics/woolbaize.html scroll down to photo of baize table cloth.
The sergeant (British spelling) a soldier, in modern society of 'middle class' origins, fulfilling a slightly junior role to the knight in the medieval hierarchy. Sergeants could fight either as heavy to light cavalry, or as well-trained professional infantry, either spearmen or crossbowmen. There are several stories of black serjeants brought back to their village after their death in battle through the late nineteenth century.
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Porter's chairs - http://g-cdn.apartmenttherapy.com/1274186/3-25-rhversailleschair_rect540.jpg - originated in 16th-century France, and were known as "guérites" ( "sentry") with high backs and sides. These chairs were commonly used for invalids and the elderly to protect them from droughts. Their true original purpose was for hall porters.
An essential position in the homes of the well-to-do, the hall porter was the gatekeeper, admitting or refusing callers based on his memory for faces and names of his employer's acquaintances, his knowledge of the acceptable members of high society, and even on his learned understanding of class attributes and distinctions. In an 1857 book, The Household Manager, Charles Pierce writes of the hall porter:"If his master be a rich man, and a charitable one, that master is being for ever applied to by the distressed, the needy, and the impostor … Hence is called into exercise the necessity for the porter's searching and discriminative eye, and his scrupulous pause before receiving a letter or answering an inquiry."
The hall porter trusted with the security of the household was expected to maintain his post at all times, even sleeping in his chair after dark, and occasionally taking meals there, as well. Some porter's chairs were equipped with drawers under the seat where supplies could be kept, or where hot coals could be placed keep them warm (they were often stationed in chilly, damp entrance halls). The chairs occasionally had a hinged shelf that could be propped up at night to hold a lantern.
Many porter's chairs were hooded, or at least were ample, with high sides, in order to protect him from droughts. The hooded chairs were also thought to be acoustically helpful, so as to help the porter be as vigilant as possible.
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Nice site with history of the street organ http://www.floraco.com/organs/history/
This site has a photo of a barrel organ that many of us remember from our childhood
http://www.barrelorgangrinder.com/root.php?id=history
Pouring tea in Victorian kitchen - looks a bit cleaner and more genteel than at the Smallweed's
http://gallery.nen.gov.uk/assets/0812/0000/0545/p1060930_mid.jpg
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aha - found where some would buy the next addition of the paper with the series of Bleak House - Here is a bill with the photo of the shop - the shop being a Printer, Bookbinder, Stationer, Paper Bag and Label Maker, Music and Book Seller, News Agent & Co.
http://gallery.nen.gov.uk/assets/0704/0000/0003/f_copy.jpg
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JoanK, Mr. George was identified as a son of Mrs. Rouncewll. Apparently he went away to war and now owns and operates a shooting gallery. That's pretty much all we know at this point, but it's fairly evident he is going to be deeply involved in this story. He, too, presents a mystery!
I think Dickens has a reason for everything he does, JUDE. Since he is telling us so
much about this very unpleasant family, they must be important to the story.
I love that photo/print? of the printing shop, BARB. So detailed, and such an inviting
shop.
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Barb, thanks for the help with those many, puzzling phrases and expressions. They do slow down ones reading. The Norton Critical must be a big help with that sort of thing.
Dickens certainly finds the drama in everything, with childhood very high on the list. We've looked into the lives of many children; but at the Smallweeds we find children who never had a childhood at all. How bleak.
Mr Smallweed's Mr D could well be the devil. Surely not Sir Dedlock! Mr S is in such an unsavoury business he would naturally pretend he is only the messenger. Like the guys at Chancery: it's not us, it's the system.
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"Surely not Sir Dedlock!"
Remember this is Dickens, Jonathan. Stranger things have happened. Well, almost! ;)
More coincidences - Mr. George is Mrs. Rouncewell's son - remember she's the Dedlock's housekeeper. Dickens' pen is drawing all of these formerly introduced characters into a tighter circle, isn't he?
Guppy and Jobling have also visited the Dedlock estate - remember Mrs. Rouncewell let them in for a look-around, even though they dropped in without an appointment.
I enjoyed those links, too, Barbara. The drawing of the Print Shop looks to be from the time period, judging from the woman's dress.
Jude defending Guppy again, though he seems to have a scheme in mind. Guppy bears watching - though I'm going to admit, anyone who takes his mother out to eat can't be all bad. Lobster and lettuce, no less! I wonder if lobster was something special back then - as it is now. IS lobster plentiful in London. I wouldn't think so - but don't know.
Did you notice the reference to Guppy and Miss Flite's rent money? The reason he knows there is a room available at Krooks is because he "pays Miss Flite's rent to Krook - in her presence." Do you think he paying her rent himself, or using someone else's money to pay for her little flat?
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I'm having trouble placing Mr. Guppy in the scheme of things? Is he a law clerk? Studying the law like Richard Carstone? Does this put him in the Middle Class?
And Jobling? I can't figure Tony Jobling at all. He's been fired from a job at Lincoln Fields and will now work copying documents for Mr. Snagsby. His clothers are threadbare - he's hungry when we meet him for dinner with his friend, Mr. Guppy - but oh my goodness, look at how he's decorating his little flat at the Rag and Bottle - under the assumed name of Mr. Weevle.
He's making curtains, shelving...setting out his musical instruments, fancy dress, prized collection of copper-late and magnificent portraits. It is said he is familiar with the original paintings featured in the Galaxy Gallery.
What do you make of this dandy? It seems he will be able to make himself at home in the Rag and Bottle on Chancery Lane - as well as in polite society in those fancy duds...
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The Smallwood household - I remember as a kid there were a couple of families who lived in our area who were mentally handicapped and some of their antics described by Dickens reminded me seeing them on their front porches - seems to me to send a family member to a home of sorts was like sending them to a snake pit therefore, many families simply lived with the mentally handicapped.
From the reaction of Bart - he does not appear really upset at them and Judy with resignation and anger she hold inside that only is released at the help, Charley she soldiers on taking care of her Grands...sad but noble realizing the handicap that family lived with and they did not abandon their duty to each other - no Skimpole's in this family.
Knowing now what a Porter chair looks like I can better see the effect of the shenanigans between the two older Smallwoods - the chair would keep them from rolling on the floor. And all that Tea preparation even if with only a sheet-iron tea-tray just for tea and toast - wow - makes me realize how little ceremony we put into our eating - I often sip my coffee or drink tea - more likely iced than hot - while working or standing at the kitchen island - to stop, sit and serve a pot of tea with even bowls or nice cups and saucers hmmm makes me think.
And bless his heart Bart is really trying to be and do something with his life - with all the talk and non-talk of money in his home he grew up knowing money - no wonder he could rattle off the cost of each serving at the restaurant.
Well left off in the middle of the chapter on Bucket - so onward...
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Barb: I love all the pieces of "Dickenalia", really brings the period to life. And we've been neglecting the food! Lobster and lettuce? Sounds yummy.
And did you notice all those cakie things at the tea serving? Wonder what the puffy one was? (why does reading books always make me want to eat?)
Mr. george is Mrs. Rouncewells son? I missed that completely. Why would he want to "cover up" for some of the swells? I admit, I'm lost?
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I have to say, I’m with Jonathan --- “Three hundred pages into the novel and still no action!” Well, a little bit at the end of Chapter 22, but not much. I won’t say more yet as the discussion hasn’t moved that far.
Mr. Jobling (aka Mr. Weevle – love that name!) moving into Nemos’ former residence is happening for a reason. I think he will find something hidden in the room and/or will observe things from his room, situated as it is near Mrs. Flite and Mr. Krook.
And, I agree with Jude on the Smallweeds --- “This whole family gave me the willies.” I couldn’t quite believe what I was reading! The action that stood out most to me was when Judy collected the outside fragments and worn-down heels of loaves, and worse yet, the tea left in the bottoms of cups and saucers and from the bottom of the teapot, and gave those to Charley as her meal. Unbelievable!
Joan P. asked “Did you notice the reference to Guppy and Miss Flite's rent money? The reason he knows there is a room available at Krooks is because he "pays Miss Flite's rent to Krook - in her presence." Do you think he is paying her rent himself, or using someone else's money to pay for her little flat?”
I think Guppy is using someone else’s money to pay the rent. He says, “Now it has been one of my duties of late, to pay Flite a certain weekly allowance, deducting from it the amount of her weekly rent: which I have paid (in consequence of instructions I have received) to Krook himself, regularly in her presence.”
The fact that it is a duty suggests that it is a job. He also says he received instructions about how the transactions were to take place, so he is not doing this of his own accord or with his own money.
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Whoever caught the Mr. George/Mrs. Rouncewell relationship is pretty sharp. That does come up in Chp. 7 or 8 -- Mrs. R, speaking to Watt -- (Kindle on the PC makes for easy searching.)
"You are a fine young fellow. You are like your poor uncle George.
"They say I am like my father, grandmother." "Like him, also, my dear—but most like your poor uncle George!” Why poor, I wonder.
And then nothing more about George until he comes to the Smallwood home.
Barb, I loved the food references. That lobster salad could almost be found in one of today’s cook books. Two cabbage heads of lettuce – what an interesting choice of words. Are they speaking of cabbage or lettuce?
We’ve been talking about figures of speech in Latin class, and I’ve been wondering about a few here in Dickens. His descriptions of the Smallwoods – is it sarcasm that he is using, especially when he talks about “that benevolent gentleman?” That chapter has left me in some confusion. Mrs. Smallwood – has she always been thus, or could this be age-related dementia? And just what was going on between Mr S and George? Is Mr. S a money-lender, a broker of sorts, or does he just steer people in the direction of such? And as for Mr. D, I got the impression that he was a figment of Mr. Smallwood’s imagination.
Laura, do you think that it's really Mr. Jarndyce who's paying Miss Flite's rent. He would most likely use his lawyer (Mr. Kenge) who would most likely assign the job to an underling.
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Jonathan I looked for an annotated copy without success - but then I get the impression Norton's Critical is not a true annotated copy but one with lots of footnotes - frankly it is such fun seeing something while reading and saying to myself I wonder what that is or what that means or how that looks and I can be off in no time to the most fascinating web sites.
I just love seeing how the author uses these what appears to be insignificant details to further his characters and his description of their lives. He even says something about they being sentries in their chairs before the fire. With the description for Bart, his sister and his dead father it appears the family is suffering -
The grandfather in one instance seems bright as a penny and annoyed with his wife but yet, does not read books or the paper or gets out of his house much less his chair. hmmm is that another allusion to the Chancery where no one moves but they know their intricate paper that can be delayed and the costs that they can rack up as their earnings. And if someone complains just throw a symbolic cushion at them by complaining about the paper they sent to the courts.
JoanP, didn't we learn to our surprise that it was Doc Woodcourt who couldn't make enough money in London so he went off to India to increase his fortune and he was the one supporting Miss Flite.
Yes, I agree that was an eyes wide open catch Babi that George was the eldest lost son of Mrs. Rouncewell - they all have their purpose and place like a giant jigsaw puzzle.
I love the way Dickens starts the chapter characterizing an allegory as if a character rather than a literary devise to further meaning. And here we have poor Jenny back in of all places Tom-all-Alone's.
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Pedln and Barb, I think Barb is right about Mr. Woodcourt paying Mrs. Flite’s rent. I knew Guppy wasn’t doing it, but I wasn’t sure who was until I read Barb’s post. I am having trouble keeping track of all these people who work in the area of law!
Chapter 21 is confusing, trying to sort out what is real and what is not. I took everything at face value and assumed that everyone was telling the truth and that people referenced really exist. We’ll see how those assumptions work out!
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Good morning!
I don't see a conflict here regarding Miss Flite's support. I believe that Guppy is actually bringing the money for her rent and paying Krook "in her presence." We don't know yet from whom he is getting the money. That had been going on for some time before Nemo's death and Dr. Woodcourt was called in. Shortly after that, Miss Flite began to receive an extra seven shillings. We're told that Woodcourt is suppling these additional funds- but Esther assumed it was her Guardian. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be John Jarndyce who is giving Woodcourt the money for Miss Flite's living expenses. Remember when Esther noticed how little food she had? I think she described her living situation to Jarndyce that night when the dark medical man came to Bleak House for dinner.
I think that everyone is taking care of dear Miss Flite. (I'm wondering "why" - we don't know what her law suit is about, do we? That's another mystery for another day.)
I've got the Norton Critical Edition - heavily footnoted and will be glad to share any of the information there. Just ask when you are puzzling over something and I'll see if it's there.
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Laura, I too believe that the characters described in Chapter XXI are based on real people. These were hard times in London. People turned to borrowing money out of desparation. Money lending was big business. The Smallweeds were making money off of this situation - but they were just one part of a huge crime operation. I'm still looking for the big man in the city whose last name begins with "D", Jonathan.
When we were discussing Dickens' last novel, The Mystery of Edwin Drood, we talked about the author's insomnia. One hundred and fifty years ago. At the time he was writing Bleak House, Dickens took to walking the streets of London after midnight - and it is then that he came face to face with the night life of the city - the poverty, the drunkenness, the illness, the crime, the homelessness - he called it "houselessness"
Dickens wrote an essay called NIGHT WALKS (http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/47773/), which you might find interesting.
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I don't find the delay in introducing the murder troubling. After all, a murder mystery
is not the purpose of the book. It does serve to hold the interest of the serial readers
and introduces a novelty.
I totally agree with LAURA about Judy's idea of feeding the servant. Judy is definitely
on my list of unpleasant characters. If there were any readers of Dickens behaving like
that, I hope they had the grace to blush.
The "cabbage heads of lettuce" caught my eye, too, PEDLN. So odd. I assume it refers to
the lettuce, like iceberg, that are round like cabbage. Someone wondered if lobster was
common in England. Being an island, I assume all kinds of seafood would be readily
available.
"That benevolent gentleman", Mr. Smallwood, is IMO definitely sarcasm. Dickens does
that quite a bit, especially in reference to his more unsavory characters.
I don't think Dr. Woodcourt was supporting Miss Flite financially, BARB. My impression
was that he was providing medical care free of charge, and also simply being a friend to
her, on call whenever she needed him.
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Did we jump to conclusions - the chapter when Mr. Woodcourt came to say goodby bringing his mother with him is where we thought he was seeing to the shillings a day to Miss Flite
"For you," said Caddy with a kiss. "They were left behind by somebody."
"Left behind?"
"At poor Miss Flite's," said Caddy. "Somebody who has been very good to her was hurrying away an hour ago to join a ship and left these flowers behind. No, no! Don't take them out. Let the pretty little things lie here," said Caddy, adjusting them with a careful hand, "because I was present myself, and I shouldn't wonder if somebody left them on purpose!"
"Do they look like that sort of thing?" said Ada, coming laughingly behind me and clasping me merrily round the waist. "Oh, yes, indeed they do, Dame Durden! They look very, very like that sort of thing. Oh, very like it indeed, my dear!"
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmodeldeport.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmodeldeport.jpg)
Model of Parental Deportment
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
VIII
IX |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Oct. 1852
Nov. 1852 |
CHAPTERS
23-25
26-28 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.21-25
Mar.26-30 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illimproving.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illimproving.jpg)
Mr. Chadband Improving
a Tought Subject
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter XXIII Esther's Narrative
This chapter creates brings back and develops several characters, themes, and subplots.
1. Why does Hortense visit Esther and what is the outcome?
2. What does Esther learn about Richard's status? What is his link to Miss Flite?
3. When Richard confesses to Esther that he feels unworthy of Ada, Esther says, "You have a noble nature and Ada's love may make you worthier every day." What do you think people believed about human behavior during that time?
4. What are the reactions of Mr. Turveydrop and of Mrs. Jellyby to their learning of Prince's and Caddy's engagement?
5. What do you think of Mr. Jarndyce's "gift" to Esther?
Chapter XXIV An Appeal Case
1. What does Mr. Jarndyce ask of Richard and Ada before Richard leaves for his Army post? What is the reaction of everyone?
2. Where has Gridley been staying? What do we learn about Gridley and the affects of the Chancery on him? What is his association with Miss Flite?
3. What do we learn about Mr. Bucket in this chapter?
Chapter XXV Mrs. Snagsby sees it all
1. What form do Mr. Snagsby's nightmares take, after his dealings with Mr. Bucket?
2. What does Mrs. Snagsby think she "sees"?
3. What kind of a sleuth are we given to understand Mrs. Snagsby will make?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
Pedlin
I'm not sharp but I didn't catch the relationship between George and Mrs. Rouncewell because I knew it from the Git go. On the long list of characters that is on the header, he appears on the list as # FIVE , out of the list of about fifty people.
Printing out the list and constantly referring to it has been SO helpful. The story is so convaluted that I write notes about the people as we go along.
I'm beginning to think that the role of Skimpole in the story is to play the buffoon who exposes underlying truths. Sort of like the King's jester. In Chapter XIX he is asked by Boythorn:
"Is there such a thing as principle?"
Skimpole answers: "I don't know what you it is you call by that name or what it is or where it is or who possesses it. I find it comfortable-for I am a mere child".
However Skimpole is still a very unprincipled guy who sponges off of others and uses them.
The only person that uses HIM is Dickenss.
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Laura we all read stories with what we bring - my only concern reading a novel written long ago, words can have different meaning - so that if we had a sentence today about a 'cool' kid 160 years from now that slang may no longer be recognized and a reader could assume he was unfriendly or dressed warmer - there are a few Victorian and Dickens dictionaries online - I think I linked one of them on this site - by accident reviewing a list I found words that had meanings other than I imagined and that was how I found the meaning for 'natural' - I went back and reread the sentence with the new meaning and it fit - with the amount of irony and sarcasm used by many British authors and that we have found here from Dickens it could be that it was only used to describe behavior rather than the malady.
Describing the behavior it would be like including a Punch and Judy show into the story - and who knows - maybe that was the intent - I saw it as describing a malady - maybe Alzheimer's or maybe another illness with all the descriptions of how their short stature and short brain power and monkey like faces was inherited - that to me was a further reason to consider it a malady -
If the grandparents of Bart are an allegory to Punch and Judy - that could fit - in Victorian times Punch was called the professor and he was a hunchback - so that the grandfather needing jostling in his chair we know he is not a healthy figure of a man and his being a money lender rep would be in line with being called a professor. This is the time in history when Pretty Polly was removed from the show to make it a show for children and yet, you could almost see Dickens using irony that the daughter, named Judy is the opposite of a Pretty Polly but yet, she catches the eye of George. Like taking the pieces of Punch and Judy characters and changing them up a bit - always reminds me of that move that Cher did where the characters were changed up but the same as the opera, La Boheme which was featured in the move.
Anyhow we all found the chapter to be either alarming or confusing or brutal - it sure got our attention and each of our viewpoints is maybe going to help us sort out the story and this time in history. Interesting that is not mentioned at all and probably because it does not fit the storyline but only a short distance away the Crystal Palace opened in 1851 - one of the most beautiful buildings with all the latest inventions and collections of art on display, opened by the Royal Family with dignitaries in attendance from around the world. Surely Lady D in real life would have visited the exhibition. Just as interesting, this is taking place 5 years after the worst of the Irish famine sent millions of Irish to their graves and as immigrants to the US, Canada and Australia. The dichotomy of Pomp and abject starvation seems to be a hallmark for this time in history and in his way Dickens seems to capture that as a theme in his story.
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Jude just a thought I wonder if Skimpole is a prototype of Beau Brummel the Dandy who sponged off everyone especially the king - he was impeccably dress and he had a witty tongue saying outrageous things [till he took it too far when the king put on some weight] - if that fits at all it would help to elevate John Jarndyce to being more than a philanthropist but someone that has state secrets and position with many at his beck and call.
What a great idea The story is so convaluted that I write notes about the people as we go along.
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Bart's grqandparents as Punch and Judy: That's a good idea! Who hit who in those shows: was it Judy hitting Punch or vica versa?
Yes, the wife definately has senile dementia: Dickens says she has become like a child in her old age. And Dickens is definitely being sarcastic about the unloving way her husband treats her. But Dickens doesn't seem to have any more sympathy for her.
I loved Dickens' "Night Walks". You really get the feel of the night!
And Mr. Skimpole as the buffoon? Good idea. It's not clear how he runs up all these debts, when he's being taken care of by Mr. J. Fancy clothes?
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OK, in Chapter 22, our detective Bucket makes his appearance. Why does it happen in such a spoooky way? What's with the ghostlike tone of this chapter, anyway?
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Enter Mr Bucket. Detective Bucket. Do you think the author is preparing us for a crime? I just love reading all your posts. And they confirm my own feelings about a significant feature of Dickens' style. Keep the reader guessing. Almost every character appears with questions, with a mystery about them. Even Grandmother Smallweed. Is she suffering from a malady? All the Smallweeds are afflicted with some malady that keeps them stunted, with simian features. Isn't it beginning to appear that all the ills in the book are social ills. These people are all victims of their environment. It seems to me that Mrs Small weeds is really only throwing back at her husband what she's been hearing for a lifetime: numbers having to do with money, money, money....
Why has Mr Bucket been called in? It seems, that threat, that Mr Tulkinghorn feels is coming from Mr Gridley. And why has Hortense come to Mr Tulkinghorn? Ostensibly about a recommendation for a job. And just like that she finds herself at the center of a curious investigation about somone involved with the dead law writer. Is she also on a mission of revenge for having been dismissed?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmodel) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmodel)
Model of Parental Deportment
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INSTALMENT
VII
VIII |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Oct. 1852
Nov. 1852 |
CHAPTERS
23-25
26-28 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.21-25
Mar.26-30 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illimproving.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illimproving.jpg)
Mr. Chadband Improving
a Tought Subject
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Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter XXIII Esther's Narrative
This chapter brings back and develops several characters, themes, and subplots.
1. Why does Hortense visit Esther and what is the outcome?
2. What does Esther learn about Richard's status? What is his link to Miss Flite?
3. When Richard confesses to Esther that he feels unworthy of Ada, Esther says, "You have a noble nature and Ada's love may make you worthier every day." What do you think people believed about human behavior during that time?
4. What are the reactions of Mr. Turveydrop and of Mrs. Jellyby to their learning of Prince's and Caddy's engagement?
5. What do you think of Mr. Jarndyce's "gift" to Esther?
Chapter XXIV An Appeal Case
1. What does Mr. Jarndyce ask of Richard and Ada before Richard leaves for his Army post? What is the reaction of everyone?
2. Where has Gridley been staying? What do we learn about Gridley and the affects of the Chancery on him? What is his association with Miss Flite?
3. What do we learn about Mr. Bucket in this chapter?
Chapter XXV Mrs. Snagsby sees it all
1. What form do Mr. Snagsby's nightmares take, after his dealings with Mr. Bucket?
2. What does Mrs. Snagsby think she "sees"?
3. What kind of a sleuth are we given to understand Mrs. Snagsby will make?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I've put a new heading in the post above since we're now moving on to the next section. We'll learn more about Mr. Bucket in 24. Who are some of the other characters who have been brought back in this section? What are some of the plots and themes that recur?
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Jonathan, I didn’t think we were being prepared for a crime with Mr. Bucket’s appearance. I thought a crime had already occurred, or was in process, and he was there to investigate, based on this quote:
“There seems to be a doubt whether this dead person [Nemo]wasn’t entitled to a little property, and whether this female [Lady Dedlock] hasn’t been up to some games respecting that property,”
Hmmm…I wonder if there will be further crime(s)? This book is a mystery!
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What did you think of Bucket? Not my idea of a hardened police detective working in the seamy underbelly of London, is he? The man has a heart. Another one of Dickens "good guys." I was happy to see him on the scene after the likes of Tulkinghorn, the Smallweeds....
JoanK - you asked about his "ghostly" spooky appearance, the ghostly tone of the scene when Bucket emerged from the shadows of Tulkinghorn's chambers. I was taken by surprise when I saw Tulkinghorn admitting all of these people into his home, weren't you? I thought he was too private an individual for that. I'm beginning to think that Tulkinghorn has way too much interest in the Jarndyce case - When you mentioned "ghostly," Joan, I thought of the Ghost Walk out on Chesney Wold - and wondered if Dickens is telling us that we are getting closer to Lady Dedlock's disgrace...
So many mysteries, Laura. I wonder if you noticed that I stopped collecting them for the link in the header. It was a full time job! ;)
Before leaving Tulkinghorn's study, I'd like to hear your impression of the painting on the ceiling of Tulkinghorn's study - Allegory. This isn't the first time Allegory has been mentioned. There must be some significance. I went back to the first time and reread the passage in Chapter X, the Law Writer...and found a footnote in the Norton's Critical -
"Here in a large house, formerly a house of state, lives Mr. Tulkinghorn...But its roomy staircases, passages and antechambers still remain; and even its painted ceilings, where Allegory, in Roman helmet and celestial linen' sprawls among balustrades and pillars, flowers and clouds, and big-legged boys, and makes the head ache - as would seem to be Allegory's object, more or less." 8
8 Early 18th century painted ceilings featured scenes of personified abstractions such as Virtue or Charity. The figure of Allegory with his pointing finger suggesting lessons to be learned from him is dressed in Roman costume in accord with neo-classical fashions in vogue at the time the mansion had been a "house of state."
Wait, there's a bit more about this painting in chapter X on the next page -
"Here beneath the painted ceiling, with foreshortened Allegory staring down at his intrusion, as if it meant to swoop on him, and he cutting it dead, Mr. Tulkinghorn has at once his house and his office."
Now again a reference to Allegory in Chapter XXII - in his office, and his home, we find Tulkinghorn sitting in the twilight..."pondering on all the mysteries he knows, associated with darkening woods in the country and vast shut up houses in town: and perhaps sparing a thought or two for himself, and his family history, and his money, and his will - all a mystery to everyone."
A mystery to everyone - except to Allegory. Allegory pointing at Tulkinghorn. Dickens couldn't be any clearer - Tulkinghorn is the man to watch. And suddenly, just moments following Tulkinghorn's musings on his history and his will, appears almost out of nowhere - Mr. Bucket! Is Bucket a match for Tulkinghorn?
But are you expecting a crime, Jonathan? A murder? Do you think Tulkinghorn is capable of murder? I think he's cold-blooded enough - but I'm not sure if he'd go that far.
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An interesting theory about the Smallwell's and Pungh and Judy, BARB. But Punch and Judy were supposed to be funny, and the Smallweed's definitely are not. Well, okay, throwing the pillow at grandma all the time does have a Punch and Judy aura about it. :)
Thanks so much for that research on Allegory, JOAN. That choice of figure greatly
interested me, but I have come up with no satisfactory answer as to why Dickens chose that one. The pointing finger is very appropriate, of course, but I'm wondering if there is a hidden allegory in all this that we are missing. Perhaps it will become
clearer in time.
Detective Bucket seems to be a good man, though necessarily..in those days...
somewhat subservient to the upper class professionals and nobles. I’m afraid our glossary fails us here, as the book describes a 'lighted bulls-eye’ which was carried at the waist and used to light one’s way in the dark. It sounds like a flashlight, but there were none in those days. The glossary defines a bulls-eye as a “large, round ”. ???
Happily, I managed to find the genuine article. Have a look at the third lantern.
http://www.worthpoint.com/inventory/search?query=%22bulls-eye+lantern%2C+19th+century.
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JoanP, I think you're right that Allegory must be pointing to something important. Tulkinghorn seems to be the key here. Is he employing Bucket? Who/what is Bucket looking for?
Laura, you quote Bucket speaking to Mr. Snagsby: "There seems to be a doubt whether this dead person [Nemo]wasn’t entitled to a little property, and whether this female [Lady Dedlock] hasn’t been up to some games respecting that property.” Lady Dedlock would have no need of property. I think that Bucket be misdirecting Snagsby because Bucket wants Snagsby to keep quiet and he wants to redirect him from his main purpose in finding Jo (which we don't know either).
Babi, I'm not sure that Bucket is subservient. He can play many roles. I think he tells people stories and can take on gruffness or subservience to enable him to get what he wants from them professionally, in his detective role. But how was he with Gridley, when he finally found him? As, JoanP said, I think his exchange with Gridley made him one of the good guys.
Thank you, Babi, for finding that picture of a bulls eye lantern. That makes sense as the object that Bucket carried around to get to Tom-all-alone's.
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Not much time now but I am curious - the painting of Allegory - there are many Allegories - example Allegory of music - art - various virtues - and I have not found any piece of art yet with a man depicted as Allegory much less one with a Roman dress - I have to get going now and won't be back till much later this evening so anything that is in Norton's that explains which of the many paintings called Allegory this is a copy of or what Allegory the ceiling painting represents would be great...
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While there’s still a day left on this section, I’ll catch up with my comments. I found the Smallweed family unpleasant and creepy too. The first time I read that chapter, I could hardly stand them, and I had trouble making sense of the business stuff. Rereading made things clearer to me.
George, who is the son of Mrs. Rouncewell, has met Smallwood by answering an ad for Captain Hawdon (who is presumably Nemo). At some time in the past, Hawdon ran up a lot of debts with high living, and maybe engaged in some swindles.
George owes Smallwood money—maybe a loan, though it might be blackmail or the result of previous swindles. Smallwood maintains the story that the money is owed to someone “in the city”, but this might be fiction. George mutters “The name of your friend in the city begins with a D….” Later, Smallwood says “In the name of the -------“ and George fills in “Of our friend in the city?”
Smallwood would forgive the money if George would supply him with two names, gotten from his relatives, hence presumably to do with Sir Leicester and Lady Dedlock.
George had stuck with Hawdon for a long time, but now believes him to be dead, though doesn’t know for sure.
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Great summary, PAT.
And in Chapter 23, what they seem to have learned from all this ghosting around is that it was Lady Dedlock, dressed in Hortense's clothes, who asked Jo to show her Nemo's grave.
(notice that everything in this chapter is ghostly. Allegory. The ghostly appearance of bucket. The crowd that follows from the feverhouse (presumably the ghosts of those who have died?).
JoanP: I like the reference to the ghost at Chesney Wold. Are we goint to get ghosts whenever we get close to Lady Dedlock's secret? Or did Dickens just feel "ghosty" that day?
What allegories can we make out of what has happened? Let's keep in mind that we might be reading an allegory.
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JoanK, I agree. Dickens is making a point with all of these seemingly unrelated stories. He's going to pull it all together at the end, I'm sure of it - and yet I have no idea how. Clearly Tulkinghorn is at the heart of it - At this time, Esther seems to be playing a minor role, but who knows where Dickens will take us - or her.
I keep thinking of that painted ceiling - Allegory. JoanK asks if we are reading an allegory.
allegory (AL-eh-GOR-ee): a narrative that serves as an extended metaphor. Allegories are written in the form of fables, parables, poems, stories, and almost any other style or genre. The main purpose of an allegory is to tell a story that has characters, a setting, as well as other types of symbols, that have both literal and figurative meanings. The difference between an allegory and a symbol is that an allegory is a complete narrative that conveys abstract ideas to get a point across, while a symbol is a representation of an idea or concept that can have a different meaning throughout a literary work
Barb, I've told you evertything that Norton told me about this Allegory. Knowing you, you'll go after that Roman soldier like a dog after a bone. When I was rereading chapter X when Allegory was first introduced, two things caught my attention.
Mr.T has made this place his home and his study. Allegory regards Mr. Tulkinghorn an intruder, and appears ready to swoop down on him. The pointing figure suggests he has lessons to teach.
Clearly he's pointing at Tulkinghorn. To destroy him? To teach him?
Did you notice he is dwelling on "his family history, and his money, and his will - all a mystery to everyone." His will! Tulkinghorn's will!
Minutes later, Mr. Bucket appears...did you notice that Mr. Bucket has his own key... to Tulkinghorn's rooms?
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The allegory on the ceiling is important. It was put there by a previous tenant. But it's lost on Mr Tulkinghorn. The allegory speaks of flowers and clouds, of a figure with cheeks like peaches and knees like bunches of blossoms, sturdy legs and arms. But Mr Tulkinghorn never looks up. His chambers have turned into a 'lowering magazine of dust.'
JoanP, you have already quoted from the paragraph beginning with 'Mr Tulkinghorn, sitting in the twilight by the open window, and ending with his gloomy thoughts about that one bachelor friend of his, a man of the same mould and a lawyer too, who lived the same kind of life until he was seventy-five years old, and then, suddenly conceiving (as it is supposed) an impression that it was too monotonous gave his gold watch to his hair-dresser one summer evening, and walked leisurely home to the Temple, and hanged himself.
Mr Tulkinghorn is the tragic figure in this story. One can only wish that Dickens could have allowed him to narrate part of it. Of course that is impossible, Mr Tulkinghorn being so completely secretive. The secrets that he would take with him, if something should happen to him! And it will. We get a clue in that word 'lowering.' Very suggestive. And now, soon into the next chapter we see it again. Hortense, of all people, with a look of 'lowering energy in her face.' That's more than coincidental.
I liked Pat's close analysis of Chapter 21. What a mysterious chapter, with endless puzzling things. Give me two names. Doesn't that sound like an attempt to catch two more flies in the spider web mentioned at the beginning of the chapter. Did Captain Hawdon get caught in it? And then faked a suicide and arrived at Krooks as Nemo? On the run, like Jobling?
Who needs a murder, with all these deaths? But it is promised in the heading. It does keep one turning the pages. Only to go back to reread. My book is falling apart.
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I can't get over the great presence of mind shown by Mr Tulkinghorn's friend, when he went to have his hair dressed in anticipation. How very, very saddening. Dickens can wring the tears from ones eyes.
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I'm so sorry I jumped the gun on the new section. I'm not sure how I did that. We can still talk about the past section but will continue to discuss chapters 23 to 25 from March 21 through 25.
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Now that you mention it, MARCIE, I believe 'subservient' probably is a bad choice of words.
Even though he is a detective, I suppose his job could include handling certain legalities
for the lawyers. It bothered me that he seemed to be helping Tulkinghorn (I cheerfully
admit to a definite dislike to Tulkinghorn), but I can see that if he had suspicions there
was something amiss in the matter of Nemo, then he could be playing a role to suit his aims.
By the definition JOANP gave us, this entire book could be considered allegorical, couldn't it?
Chancery on one side, perhaps, with all it represents. People's very different ideas of charity and
kindness on the other? But then, allegory isn't necessarily confined to two sides, is it? Rich and
poor; generous and greedy. Perhaps the entire book is an allegory on life in England for that
time. Perhaps that's why Dickens thought it his best book. Just speculating.
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Moat of us have the opposite problem, Marcie - trying to catch up! ;)
I mentioned yesterday that I had given up trying to keep up with the Unsolved Mysteries page - it's in the heading in case you've been checking on me. However, I AM going to put the question concerning the Allegory in that painting. I can't get past the question JoanK asked yesterday - is Bleak House an Allegory? The Roman soldier - why is so carefully described in the painting over Tulkinghorn's office - with peach cheeks and roses? Is he pointing at Tulkinghorn? I was intrigued at the idea of Tulkinghorn's concern about his own will. I never thought of him as a family man - with heirs. Do you think of a Roman soldier in connection with Roman Law? I'm just guessing...
In the last installment, we're left with Tulkinghorn's descovery that it was in fact Lady Dedlock at Nemo's burial site - disguised as Hortense's. How much does Tulkinghorn know about Nemo's identity?
So now we've got Hortense presenting herself to Esther, proposing that Esther take her on as a maid. Can you see Esther with a French maid? Why does Hortense want this position so badly? She tells Esther she'll serve her for nothing. There's got to be a reason, don't you think? Did someone put her up to it - could it have been Tulkinghorn? I was cheering for Esther when she turned her down.
Babi - we were posting together - thinking along the same lines regarding Allegory. I don't like Tulkinghorn either. If there's anyone here who does, raise your hand. Well, there is Jonathan. Dickens has such powers of persuasion - maybe he'll show us another side of Tulkinghorn before long.
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I think you are so right Babi - this entire story is one big allegory - as to that painting - I have searched and searched - there are several or really many versions of allegory in paintings - there is the allegory of : Theology, Philosophy, Poetry and Jurisprudence - all women - yes, wearing Roman draped clothing - and yes, their headpiece could be called a helmet without it looking as we imagine a helmet should look since a head and hair covering was called a helmet - I get the impression only if made of leather but that is not stated only all the photos do show a flat and head hugging with longer back to the neck leather piece.
I have re-read and re-read the description and where he does give gender when referring to the legs of probably the putti that he calls boys he really does not give a gender to the allegory painted on the ceiling - Dickens earlier mentions both Raphael and Titian -
Raphael does the four that is seen on alter screens and other pieces of art where as Titian does the Allegory of Marriage and his better known Allegory of Time which is three aging heads of the same man with animal heads under that describe his character in youth middle age and old age. Titian also does "Allegory of the Battle of Lepanto" where King Phillip on the day of the winning of the battle is the day his son, the future king, is born and the painting shows both events as an allegory to each other.
Then we have another group of Allegories in Liberal Art - the Allegory of Painting, Poetry, Literature, Rhetoric, Astronomy, Geometry, Arithmetic, Music, Textiles, - another group, the Allegory of dignity, Faith, Fame, an Allegory of Liberty and Reason. An Allegory of Peace and the Arts under the English Crown - Allegory of Wealth, Charity, Arts & Sciences.
These paintings, frescoes, or statuary are not seen with a sword - The only sword holding Allegories that I have found are the four Cardinal Virtues done by Raphael and other earlier artists example Bartolo in 1414 did a standing male with helmet and sword of both Justice and Magnanimity. As most paintings of the time they are very stylized without the emotional draw that would lead anyone's eye to think further than what is on the wall or ceiling.
Here is a link the the Allegory to Divine Providence and Barberini Power for a glimpse of the glory of some of these ceiling paintings or frescoes.
http://www.wga.hu/art/p/pietro/cortona/1/barberi0.jpg
Barberini Power is the result of an old 11th century minor noble Tuscan family where in the sixteenth century the family's history turns as two brothers, textile merchants - one has a son who hooks up with the Medici's, moves to Rome and amasses a fortune that buys him many titles including buying an appointment to be a Cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church - after his death one of the nephew using the fortune to buy more influence and finally was elected [ahum] Pope Urban VIII - Oh yes, the son of the one brother who had moved to Room - soon after his moving to Rome the Medici's had his uncle killed - ah so... and yet, from that we have the above painted ceiling done at the epic power of the Barberini family - life and the art it could support, is and was drop-your-jaw-amazing...
Today this ceiling can be seen as the Palazzo is now the Barberini library, a core section of the Vatican's Biblioteca Apostolica.
Also I learned in all this research, that the name of the Allegory is like a puzzle within the painting - take the first letter of what the figures are holding and the color of their clothing or drapery and any other distinctive addition so that these first letters spell out the Allegory.
All that and still no Roman dressed male with peach knees wearing a helmet and sword pointing can I find.
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Oh, my. If I had a ceiling like that I would never get any sleep -- I'd be staring at all the little figures 24/4 trying to figure them out. As it is, I wonder .... No, I'm not going to look at it.
My kindle's battery gave out yesterday. Off to read the new section.
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Barbara, I knew you'd go after that Allegory painting, Barbara. One could write a dissertation on Dickens and the Bleak House Allegory. Makes you wonder if other novels of his are also allegories, doesn't it? Fantastic painted ceiling in the link to the Allegory of Divine Providence. It's how I imagine the ceiling in Tulkinghorn's office.
Jonathan believes the glorious ceiling is lost on Tulkinghorn though. He doesn't ever look up at it. He's too busy with legal matters - his own, and others. Just as well; he isn't aware that the Roman soldier's finger is pointed right at him.
Now, isn't it strange, that this new installment brings us right to Richard Carstone's legal studies. Richard stands to inherit thousands of pounds, but he's burning out as he submerges himself in the Jarndyce case. I wasn't sure exaclty why he gave up when he did though. Maybe his billiard debts? He's got to get out of London. He will leave off his legal studies and join the army! What brings this on? Do you sense any connection between his decision and our recent discussion of the Roman solier on the painted ceiling in Tulkinhorn's law office?
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That's very interesting information about allegories, Barbara. Obviously a significant art form, and introducing it into the plot of BLEAK HOUSE seems brilliant, whatever its meaning or representation. I was ready to accept it as a contrast to the gloomy atmosphere in Mr Tulkinghorn's chambers. He seems uninfluenced by it. His gloomy thoughts suggest that he fears for his life.
Still thinking about your question, Laura: 'I wonder if there will be further crime(s)?'
And JoanP's: 'Are you expecting a crime?'
I do. Many things point forward to such an event. And listening to Mr George tell it, it will be a pre-meditated crime. Mr Gridley was prepared to commit murder. And with Mlle Hortense reminding Esther of 'some woman from the streets of Paris in the reign of terror', and angrilly talking of making an oath and keeping it faithfully, isn't it time to call in some police protection?
Mr Bucket does have an interesting way of getting cooperation from people he is interested in. Finds in them what he is expecting from them! An arrest comes with an offer of help. And what about, now you see him, now you don't?
Is Mr Jarndyce worrying that Richard will go the way of Gridley and Miss Flyte?
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I'm pretty sure that, Babi, you and the others of you who have posted, are right in classifying Bleak House as an allegory, especially Chancery and all of the false hope and misery it represents to the people and all of the puffed up, grinding away of the legal representatives who are taking away the lives of those for whom they are supposed to provide justice.
Barbara, thank you for all of that interesting information. I think that Dicken's has a very visually as well as aural style of writing. If he includes paintings in his writing, it's likely they are ones that he has seen and which have meaning for him. It's helpful that you've called attention to them. Jonathan, you are right that Tulkinghorn isn't paying attention to the paintings. Maybe he (and we should)!
I wasn't experiencing a lot of foreboding but some of you are convincing me that I should be more watchful for clues about something very bad happening.
JoanP, you mention that Richard stands to inherit thousands of pounds, but he's burning out as he submerges himself in the Jarndyce case. I think he says that he's had quite enough of the law in the tedious work he's done to try to understand the case. I'm afraid that Richard can't stick to anything after his initial pursuit. He's been tainted by the case. It can't bring itself to a conclusion and neither can he.
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JoanP, I too am wondering why Hortense offered to work for free. Does must know of Mr. Jarndyce's wealth and may think that eventually he would pay her. She likely would think that she could control Esther since Esther seems very meek. Is she just looking for a good position or is she following her instincts in thinking that Esther may be the key to something important or has someone (Tulkinghorn or Bucket) put her up to it?
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No way to know for sure, JOAN, but that bit about Hortense wanting to be Esther's maid
seemed to me an attempt to find a way to get back at Lady Dedlock. She certainly noticed
Lady D's interest in Esther and she strikes me as a very spiteful, vengeful personality.
Great post on Allegory, BARB. I read every word. I especially appreciated your point that
the Allegory on Tulkinhorn's ceiling could well have been female, since the ones I was able
to find in a quick search were all female. Now I can stop puzzling over it.
Yes, Richard has once again changed his mind, and now proposes to enter the military. “..in
his usual characteristic way, plunged into a violent course of military study, and got up
at five o’clock every morning to practice the broadsword exercise.” I wonder how long it
will take him to tire of this enterprise. As Mr. Jarndyce warned him, however, once in the
military he can’t just decide to walk away.
Ah, yes, JONATHAN. Our detective is good with people, isn't he? A delicate combination of
cajolery, praise and warning of trouble, and he has people doing exactly what he tells them.
As for Richard, Mr. Jarndyce isn't the only one worried about where Richard is headed. So
are Esther and Ada,...and me, too, for that matter. :-\
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Babi, you say " that bit about Hortense wanting to be Esther's maid
seemed to me an attempt to find a way to get back at Lady Dedlock. " That sounds very likely!
Yes, the main person that I'm worried about is Richard. He is delusional about money. He can mimic others in saying that the Chancery case shouldn't be trusted but he can't relinquish his expectation that he will inherit a great sum and will not have to work. He also seems, a way similar to Skimpole, that by not spending a certain amount of money, he is actually saving it and has it available. No wonder he got himself into debt.
I think you are right that everyone who loves him fears for Richard. Yet, Esther says to him, when Richard confesses to Esther that he feels unworthy of Ada, "You have a noble nature and Ada's love may make you worthier every day." What do you think people believed about human behavior during that time?
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The best part of reading this book with all of you is the different ways we have of looking at things and the differing opinions that result. I think it’s great that everyone has different thoughts and ideas. I can’t wait to hear what everyone thinks of this section of reading because I know I will be enlightened.
Thank you all for the thoughts on allegory. Fascinating!
There is definitely a mystery in why Hortense offers her services to Esther free of charge, but I can’t figure out why. I like Babi’s theory. I don’t blame you for not keeping track of all the mysteries, Joan. It seems we have more mysteries and few answers. I can’t help but wonder if Mr. Jarndyce got word of Hortense’s offer to Esther and quickly inserted Charley in the open spot. It seems too coincidental that right after Hortense’s offer that Mr. Jarndyce decides to help the Smallweeds. I am glad he did, but it leaves me wondering.
I am worried about Richard. Using the word Esther did, he can’t seem to “settle.”
I have to read the last chapter of this section now…
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Babi
I wanted to know about Punch and Judy (I know it's a side issue-but still).
Punch and Judy were originally created in Italy in the 14th century. they were called "Comedia del
Arte." It was a bawdy act for adults.
There were always at least eight chracters:Puncinello (PUnch), Judy (originally Joan or Jean ; a prostitute.), Ghost, Devil, Jim Crow (a black puppet and the origin of the American Jim Crow), the Constable,, the Doctor and the dog named Toby.
The show became popular in the 19th century on the streets of London and attracted children. This forced the performers to change the nature of the show since they wanted the parents to give them coins at the end of the performance.
Judy became Punch's wife and their physical bashing of each other proved a highly successful
attraction.
Undoubtedly Dickens had seen the show many times and incorporated it into Bleak House which contains everything but the kitchen sink. Since there are about another 500 pages to go, the Kitchen sink also has a chance of appearing.
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Just lost a long post. GRRR!
Hortense is " angrilly talking of making an oath and keeping it faithfully". More secrets! Or more likely, more of the same one. Whatever the secret surrounding Lady Dedlock, hortense is involved up to her teath. The traditional enmity between England and France shows up in stock characters like the French servant, sly, untrustworthy, vengful.
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JUDE. The Punch and Judy information is very interesting! I admit, the snippets of such shows I've seen never made any sense to me. Taste in humor sure changes. I guess I can't fault Dickens for it.
I wonder what Dickens' audience would have known about Punch to fill in the character that we don't.
I couldn't remember who "Charley" was until I used the "search" function on my kindle. She's the little daughter of the debt collector who died. The one who was taking care of her even littler siblings. Every time jarndice sees misery, he does something to relieve it, without any fuss or bother. Clearly Dickens' idea of philanthopy.
How do you like his picture of the two parents being informed of their children's betrothal. Each completely self-involved, each in their own way: one openly and one in the name of philanthropy. Contrasted again with Jarndice' help of Charley. What do you think of this? Why is Dickens criticized for his view of philanthropy?
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"BLEAK HOUSE, which contains everything but the kitchen sink." I laughed when I read that Jude. And, you say, there is a chance we will get it, with 500 pages to go.
That's what I had the allegory on the ceiling as being. I was tempted to say so. Why does Jobling come on the scene sporting a new moustache, pretending to be very proud of it? As a partial disguise of course; but at the time of writing Dickens himself was growing one and proudly showing it off.
The mystery list is a great idea, JoanP. Very high on my list is - what service has Hortense rendered Mr Tulkinghorn, for which he thanks her. And what is 'this little wager' the two of them have going? Does he now owe her a favour?
We should not allow Dickens to decide who we should like and not like. Mr Turveydrop and Mrs Jellybe may not be ideal parents, but they are both trying so hard to set a good example for the kids.
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When I first saw that ceiling in REAL LIFE in the 1950's I remember my reaction.
Overblown...too much.. show off.
That after visiting Van Gogh Collection in Holland and all the great Michaelangelo statues in Italy.
Obviously my mind can't get around such grandeur. Great beauty can be found in great simplicity.
Dickens of course loves the convuluted, the overly complex.....the many rather than the few.
To those among you who are capable of finding an allegory in that ceiling you are doing great work. Perhaps Dicken's work. There is still at least half a book to go and much to learn.
I will hold back about the author's intentions till very close to the end. Dickens is writing for the masses, not for the few. Bleak House may be a Mystery or a Romance or both. But it has to be something that a mass audience can digest and enjoy. The buyers of the papers in which this
story appeared month by month weren't scholars but folks that knew how to read and write and do a bit of arithmetic.They were looking for the excitement that this story provided-
What I found fascinating was how British Social Classes were breaking up:
"..to the whole framework of society receiving cracks in consequence of people (iron-masters,lead-mistresses and what not) not minding their catechisms, and getting out of the station unto which they are called-necessarily and forever...and from that to educating other people out of THEIR stations and obliterating the landmarks, and opening the floodgatess and all the rest of it.'
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Laura, I agree with you when you say, " the best part of reading this book with all of you is the different ways we have of looking at things and the differing opinions that result." I'm learning a lot that would have gotten past me without each of you bringing up different points. Speaking of which, Laura, you are right that it seems very coincidental that Charley would appear on the scene as Esther's maid right after she turned Hortense away.
Jude, I love your kitchen sink post. And you are right to remind us that Dickens wrote for the masses. He was very popular and people were waiting anxiously for each installment and talking about it to one another. It may be that some of the references that are obscure to us, were known by most people during that time. And/or it may be that Dickens provided lots of layers to his novels and individuals could "get" what they could out of it and let the rest glide over their heads. Sort of what I think you were saying, Jonathan, about the painting reference possibly just being a case of including the kitchen sink.
JoanK, re Dicken's views on philanthropy, it's interesting that he makes Mr. Jarndyce go almost overboard in his not wanting any thanks or acknowledgement for the good he does. The other philanthropists that he criticizes go overboard in the other direction, always talking about their works and, perhaps, doing little good.
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Dickens of course loves the convoluted, the overly complex.....the many rather than the few.
A true man of his time isn't he - I had a grandmother whose living room, when not in use was covered in white linen with newspaper under and on top of all the chair cushions - like the photos of Victorian sitting rooms she had the round marble top table and the glass cover displays and ornate picture frames and a desk with many cubbyholes that contained, to my sister and my delight a large collection of post cards that some you saw through a Stereoscope and other cards had thin paper over the moon or the waves or or other parts of the photo that when the postcard was held up to the light the scene almost appeared real. There were stuffed birds under glass and carpeted foot stools galore and brass spittoons and ivory handled letter openers and ink stands with dip pens some having glass holders for the nubs, blotters and blotters on a rolling devise and and and. Jammed packed with glistening waxed furniture and every table top and wall covered with brick-a-brac, plants and art.
There was so much in that room that when ever I read Little Women or Jane Austin or the Brontes I imagined my grandmother's front parlor. That is the tradition I imagine for Dickens and so as you say Jude we could expect nothing less than a Victorian story with many characters, scenes, description -
The Dickens' may not have entertained with formal dinners although, he popularized the Christmas Turkey however, he could write as if he were on paper the host of a Victorian dinner set with full silver place-settings, each utensil having its purpose so that eating a meal like writing a storyline or chapter could take as many as 20 varied pieces each with their own unique shape added to a groaning table of crystal, porcelain, silver and linen overwhelming the senses during a long and decadent evening that will bring closure with cigars and brandy and for the ladies tea and coffee from a silver tea service and paper thin porcelain cups. Yes, I am expecting some paper thin moments of emotion along with some heavy crystal glasses of Malt like heavy going.
Wow Jude so you saw the Allegory to Divine Providence and Barberini Power what a treat - sounds like it was a powerful experience - I am remembering when I was a kid banks and public buildings had huge paintings the width of the wall - I am particularly remembering the bank my mother used was a large room and wrapped around two walls was the larger than life painting of early settlers meeting and exchanging beads at the edge of a river or lake. Included on the wall were Natives stepping out of their canoes - the painting always prompted questions that gave my Mom the opportunity to share some American history -
Today, with such sterile buildings there isn't much to talk about is there. As a kid could you imagine looking up at a ceiling painted with gods and goddesses, clouds and puntii or as Dickens called them, small boys with fat legs. I can imagine the questions flying - who's that and what is she doing and why are the babies carrying flowers and are there really angles in the sky and and and. I love it just thinking back to what it would be like if we were 6, 7, or 8 years old gawking at a ceiling fresco.
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Jonathan, thank you - I totally missed Mr. Tulkinghorn thanking Hortense for her litte service - and their "little wager." Will put this question that is so very high on your list into the collection of Unsolved Mysteries in the heading right now - along with the one on Allegory.
This wager between Hortense and Mr. T just confirms my suspicion that Tulinghorn is aware of Esther's importance in the Jarndyce business. - Hortense as Esther's maid - brilliant move on his part. I'll bet he'd pay her well. (But why, what's in it for him?) Esther refuses Hortense's offer to serve her without pay. Who would refuse an offer like that? It must have stunned Mr.T - who believes that everyone has a price. Dickens has created a character beyond reproach in Esther.
Marcie, I wondered too why Esther told Richard he has a noble nature. What does she see in him that we don't? Maybe this was wishful thinking on her part - trying to make Richard believe in himself? After reading of Smallweed's money lending-operation, I'm wondering just when Richad's debts will become an object of their interest. I suppose John Jarndyce is paying off his debts as fast as Richard is piling them up - But why the army? Is he afraid of something? - Or does he just want to see the world. Ireland. Perhaps this is the best thing for him - it might teach him some discipline. Maybe he'll miss Ada, too. He doesn't seem to give her much thought. I think he thinks of her as part of the carefree future, once the case is settled - but not part of his present. Is this love?
Jude, I believe you put your finger on the reason his readers were so interested in Dickens' stories. This is not a familiar love story or even an unfamiliar murder mystery to his readers. - The 1850's were all about social reform - and enormous change. Dickens is writing of the effect of this change on not just the upper class - but the conditions of the poor and the middle class - and how they were affected by change. I wonder if others were writing about these conditions at the time. No wonder there were avid readers as each Installment was published!
Loved your post, Barb! Brought me back to my grandmother's parlor. Those stuffed birds under glass! I wonder what happened to them. I wonder why they were so popular?
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"Mr Jarndyce decides to help the Smallweeds."?
I don't remember that, LAURA; could you please remind me. I so dislike the Smallweeds I hate the idea of Mr. Jarndyce thinking he should help them. No doubt very small-minded of me.
So that's where 'Jim Crow' came from, JUDE? I never knew. How interesting. If we don't
actually get a kitchen sink, we undoubtedly have servants who shiver while scrubbing pans.
I was reminded of that poor servant of the Snagsby's...what was her name?
Who was criticizing Dickens for his views of philanthropy, JOANK? Did I miss something?
JONATHAN, Hortense, wearing one of Lady Dedlock's dresses, was the woman Tulkinghorn used
to question the boy Jo. He was suspicious of Lady Dedlock, and paid Hortense to stage that
charade. I wouldn't think he owers her a favor, since she was paid, but Hortense might very
well think differently.
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hahaha...isn't this wonderful? We are reading the same pages - and coming up with such different understanding of what we read - such is Dickens' power of suggestion. It's a good thing we can talk these things out - not to mention, reread!
"Hortense, wearing one of Lady Dedlock's dresses, was the woman Tulkinghorn used
to question the boy" Really, H. was wearing one of Lady Dedlock's dresses? I've got to go back to reread that section. I must have been dozing off - it wouldn't be the first time...
I love to reread these scenes. In Chapter XXII, as Jo enters Tulkinghorn's study, he starts when he sees "the lady." This lady is closely veiled...Bucket asks Jo how he knows the figure to be a lady. Jo says he recognizes "the wale (?), the bottet and the gownd." But there are no rings when she takes off her gloves. Isn't this Hortense, wearing her own clothes? Those that Lady Dedlock had borrowed when she spoke to Jo?
Off to add questions to the Unsolved Mysteries - do you have any that you'd like added? It will be interesting at the end to give Mr. Dickens a test to see if he has answered all of our UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html).
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmodeldeport.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmodeldeport.jpg)
Model of Parental Deportment
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INSTALMENT
VIII
IX |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Oct. 1852
Nov. 1852 |
CHAPTERS
23-25
26-29 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.21-25
Mar.26-30 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illimproving.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illimproving.jpg)
Mr. Chadband Improving
a Tought Subject
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Some Topics to Consider
In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.
Chapter XXIII Esther's Narrative
This chapter creates brings back and develops several characters, themes, and subplots.
1. Why does Hortense visit Esther and what is the outcome?
2. What does Esther learn about Richard's status? What is his link to Miss Flite?
3. When Richard confesses to Esther that he feels unworthy of Ada, Esther says, "You have a noble nature and Ada's love may make you worthier every day." What do you think people believed about human behavior during that time?
4. What are the reactions of Mr. Turveydrop and of Mrs. Jellyby to their learning of Prince's and Caddy's engagement?
5. What do you think of Mr. Jarndyce's "gift" to Esther?
Chapter XXIV An Appeal Case
1. What does Mr. Jarndyce ask of Richard and Ada before Richard leaves for his Army post? What is the reaction of everyone?
2. Where has Gridley been staying? What do we learn about Gridley and the affects of the Chancery on him? What is his association with Miss Flite?
3. What do we learn about Mr. Bucket in this chapter?
Chapter XXV Mrs. Snagsby sees it all
1. What form do Mr. Snagsby's nightmares take, after his dealings with Mr. Bucket?
2. What does Mrs. Snagsby think she "sees"?
3. What kind of a sleuth are we given to understand Mrs. Snagsby will make?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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We really do need everyone's thoughts here. There is so much in Dickens that it is easy to miss many details. I'm glad we have so many eyes on this novel. JoanP, I think that by "wale," Jo meant veil.
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'We really do need everyone's thoughts here.'
Right on. And that's why I think that most of Dickens' readers were more than barely literate. This writing takes a fair amount of intellegence to enjoy or even to comprehend. Just as it is to appreciate those over-stuffed Victorian drawing rooms. Just trying to figure out who's wearing who's dresses is confusing. Somewhere down this narrative road lies the problem of mistaken identity very likely.
Anyone for Bleak House scenes on their ceiling? What a travesty! Perhaps it's a myth. Who was that again?
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Jude said: “Since there are about another 500 pages to go, the Kitchen sink also has a chance of appearing.” Hilarious, Jude! I agree!
Mr. Turveydrop and Mrs. Jellyby reacted to their children’s engagement just as I expected they would. Mr. Turveydrop was most interested in making sure that he would be taken care. Mrs. Jellyby by could hardly spare time to chastise her daughter about her engagement to Prince instead of to the philanthropic Mr. Quale because she was so busy with her work for Africa. I found myself thinking of my parents’ reaction to my engagement --- the joy, the smiles, the welcoming handshakes, hugs, and kisses --- and found myself feeling very sad for Caddy and Prince. At least they have a common bond --- parental disinterest.
JoanP asked: “I wondered too why Esther told Richard he has a noble nature. What does she see in him that we don't? Maybe this was wishful thinking on her part - trying to make Richard believe in himself?”
I think you have answered your own question here. I do think that Esther is just trying to be as supportive and encouraging toward Richard as she possible can. I think she is worried about his inability to get settled in a profession, and, wanting the best for him, is trying to help in the way she can, which is moral support.
Laura said: "Mr Jarndyce decides to help the Smallweeds."?
Babi said: “I don't remember that, LAURA; could you please remind me. I so dislike the Smallweeds I hate the idea of Mr. Jarndyce thinking he should help them. No doubt very small-minded of me.”
Babi, I misspoke. I should have said the Mr. Jarndyce decided to help a member of the Smallweed household. Charley is not a Smallweed. Sorry for the confusion.
On a related note, I was interested to read JoanK’s comment: “I couldn't remember who ‘Charley’ was until I used the ‘search’ function on my kindle. She's the little daughter of the debt collector who died. The one who was taking care of her even littler siblings.”
I double checked and Charley is also the name of the Smallweed’s servant. Could it be the same Charley, or is Dicken’s giving the two girls the same name as a sort of symbolism of the poor orphan forced to work to support themselves and siblings?
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wale could be it is a dialect printed word for veil - or it could be as it says in the story - wale - ladies corsets that allowed them to wear the hoop skirts with those tight fitting jackets were constructed with wale bones inserted in long thin pockets - I would imagine very few of the poor dressed in fashion wearing 'wale' boned corsets and full hoop skirts so that Jo could be describing a kind of dress - however, he does say bonnet and gown - which makes me think again maybe - hmmm maybe veil is the better interpretation given his accent.
Do you think Dickens is writing a good guy-bad guy story - Seems to me every character has his place in the storyline - he needs all of them - characteristics of each not only move the story along but usually are the metaphor furthering the allegory of the story. Plus, it is too easy to judge the behavior of these characters using today's morals and ethics - there is usually a backstory explaining why a character behaves as they do - if we do not walk in their shoes it would be too easy for us to stereotype conduct based on our lack of familiarity with the times and social economic circumstances for these characters.
When you look at it the problem some in the story are having with Richard it seems to me it is because he will not cage himself into a role - in his social bracket he is supposed to have his feet on the ground in a profession - and yes, the way women are made dependent on the men it sure limits the young men's ability to try things out - dabble in life - I am remembering my in-laws who went on about not being able to marry for 7 years till he had the kind of dependable income that allowed them to care for themselves and 2 children since that was considered the standard of basic income for a newly wed. And so I can see how in the story that backstory would weigh his and Ada's love for each other as an economic issue rather than an issue of virtue and passion.
And so it is fine and dandy for Esther and others to have their opinion about how Richard is economically preparing to be able to express his love and passion but they are not on the hot seat where Richard sits. In 1852 he cannot have both - a love and time to satisfy his curiosity about life. If he was going to college today he would be one of those students who either changed his major every year or pile his schedule with enough electives to experience the many interests he wants to pursue. Heck, granted a girl but, my daughter received her BA with over 180 hours because she changed her major 4 times - and still had to return to college to finish up and take a full 36 hours in one discipline after she was working for nearly 10 years.
As to his joining the army - seems to me that was considered a noble profession that nearly all upper class men who were not the eldest and therefore, inheriting the estate would join either the army or become a minister and offered a Living. And so his choice to join the army after researching Jarndyce versus Jarndyce would suggest his saying there is only a slim to no chance of inheriting real wealth.
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Yes, that Charley thing confused me as well - I thought the debt collectors eldest daughter was Charlotte??
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Re Charley-
Referring back to my wonderful list of Characters(Thank You Joan!) without which I couldn't possibly manage this book, I see that "Charley" is "Charlotte Neckett self reliant daughter of sherrif's officer."
She is the same 13 year old girl taking care of her two younger siblings after their parents death.
She is so happy to be a servant, even for horrible people instead of being a washerwoman and dragging dirty and clean laundry back and forth as she used to do.
A wonderful, uncomplicated character and a positive and happy person. YAY!!
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aha - thank you Jude...
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I puzzled over "the wale" too. I think it must be "the veil".
" But why the army? Is he afraid of something?" He may be trying to get away from his creditors. but more likely, he's just running out of professions. Richard is "gentry", the upper class without upper class money but needing to keep up an upper class lifestyle. There were only a few professions that were "acceptable", not considered below their station: the clergy, the law, and the army or navy. Even medicine had only recently been deemed acceptable. I think Richard has already dismissed the clergy out of hand. He doesn't have many choices left.
Politics or a government post might be another choice for him. An early Bertie Wooster.
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Who criticized Dickens' views on philanthropy? No one in this discussion. But the labor movement has praised him for drawing attention to the problems of the poor, but then criticized him for thinking that largess from a few rich individuals would solve them rather than higher wages, pensions, health insurance etc.
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Yes, JoanK, Richard has about used up his options for "respectable" employment. He's used up his options in another way too. The money it will cost to buy his commission and outfit him properly will exhaust his funds. (I guess money was paid for his apprenticeships to Badger and Kenge and Carboy too.) He won't have the means to change again.
His conversation about this shows clearly that he is still only half serious, and still thinks of getting money from the settlement of the lawsuit. Esther provides some dire foreboding when speaking of Richard's friendship with Miss Flite: "But he never thought--never, my poor, dear, sanguine Richard, capable of so much happiness then, and with such better things before him!--what a fatal link was riveting between his fresh youth and her faded age; between his free hopes and her caged birds, and her hungry garret, and her wandering mind."
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Thank you so much for all of the good thinking here.
Jonathan, your insightful posts always make me laugh too. "Just trying to figure out who's wearing who's dresses is confusing." LOL
Laura, Prince and Caddy do share the common bond of their self-interested father and mother, respectively. Somehow, even though they have disfunctional parents, I'm still optimistic about them. They seem very self-reliant.
Barbara, I think that Richard is not so much caged in by having to choose a profession but is caged into the Chancery suit. He can't get it off his mind or out of his life. It seems to me that it is that, rather than a variety of interests, that is caging him. But I think you bring up a good point that he's expected to provide for his wife, when they marry. She can only look on and hope for the best. If he married a wealthy woman, he likely would not need a profession.
JoanK, yes, Richard hasn't tried politics yet. He seems very amiable. He might do well in that field. Oh, Pat. You bring up an important forewarning with the "fatal link" between Richard and Miss Flite. That does not bode well at all.
Jude, good point about Charley. She is one uncomplicated character in the book, grateful to be where she is.
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What do you think about Jarndyce asking Richard and Ada to keep their relationship on a "cousin" basis only, when Richard goes into the Army?
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Mercie that is what I think of as the cage - having to - not trying things out - but 'having to' - settle down into a profession in order to be considered an upright member of society and to even act on love and passion albeit within societies attitude that you marry. Regardless, his pull towards Jarndyce versus Jarndyce which we guess is all about the money and yet, his life and only hold on who he is is tied to that legal knot. I believe the pull is stronger than the money - it is his only tie to his parents and his heritage.
I was born into this unfinished contention with all its chances and changes, and it began to unsettle me before I quite knew the difference between a suit at law and a suit of clothes;
The law suit settled allows him a choice of his life's work - he does not have to settle for the military or, the church or, being an apprentice to a profession. He is like a dis-inherited child that does not want to be a remittance man. In another way it is about the money - what I see is, Richard does not believe in himself - as if he is nothing without an inheritance - the inheritance is for him a line of acknowledgment tied up in a law suit.
In this story I see most folks caged - having to make choices that does not allow much freedom toward a self chosen image for themselves. There are few in this story who are not caged - certainly Skimpole is not caged nor is Peepy caged, traipsing all over London by himself - John Jarndyce appears to be caged, he has a need to see those he helps be accessible to him - Mr. Boythorn does not appear to be caged - however, both Dedlocks are caged - he needing to live up to his families history and heritage and Lady D. is caged by her place in society as an upper class married woman.
Esther is caged within her projected helpfulness that she decided was her acceptance key to society after she buried her doll - to take on a maid on her own would tip the balance so that she would have to open her cage and be a decision maker rather than a competent help to John Jarndyce in Bleak House.
Ada is simply kept - like most women of the period they were caged early. Mr. Turveydrop has built his cage looking and acting the Dandy - Mrs. Jellyby needs to bury herself with her favorite child, her sympathy for others and as a mover and shaker to her African outreach - Caddy does not appear caged but may be walking into one - she is determined to make a life and play societies games in order to achieve her end - Tulkinghorn is caged by his collection of secrets - without collecting and unraveling secrets he is nothing - On and on we could go as we see the characters that 'need' - without real choice they live the life they are living and are dependent on others for their 'needs' to be met.
I see being 'needy' and 'having to' live a certain way for acceptance and to sooth the neediness as being caged.
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Marking my spot. Still reading, but am WAY behind...am reading other books in between.
Sally
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JOANP, I'm reasonably sure it wasn't one of Lady Dedlock's fancier dresses. Probably an
older, plainer outfit, such as one might pass on to the the maid when it goes out of style.
Not that Hortense, in my opinion, would have hesitated to 'borrow' one of the simpler
dresses for the purpose of the 'scam'. You may well be right that it is the same one Lady
Dedlock 'borrowed'. I'd love to re-read that passage myself, but I no longer have the book.
I'm sailing on 'notes' and a memory daily refreshed here.
Oh, thank you, LAURA. Charley, the maid, yes! And what a happy thought for both Charley
and Esther. In my mind, they suit one another perfectly. Bot very giving and caring people.
And yes, I'm sure it's the same Charley. That was the employment she found, poor girl.
That was what I was asking, JOANK. I didn't think one of our posters had criticized Dickens'
views on philanthropy. I can understand the labor movement's view and of course, they are
correct. But was this a labor movement of Dicken's day, or modern times? I do need to go
do some research there. Wouldn't Dickens have supported such a labor movement if there had
been one?
Too true, PatH. The comparison to Miss Flite pretty much sounded like a grim forecast to
me, too.
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I couldn't put this bit in my last post. I get to a certain point and the whole thing starts jumping
when I try to type.
MARCIE, it seemed to me that Mr. Jarndyce's request that Richard and Ada remain on a 'cousins' basis for the time being was prudent. Fond as he was of Richard, he had a guardian's
responsibility to Ada as well as a strong affection. Richard, as he is, would seem to me a very
poor prospective husband and I would also be cautious as Ada's guardian.
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PS: (me again) I did a quick search on the history of the labor (labour) movement and found
this:
In Europe, the labour movement began during the industrial revolution, when agricultural jobs declined and employment moved to more industrial areas. The idea met with great resistance. In the 18th century and early 19th century, groups such as the Tolpuddle Martyrs of Dorset were punished and transported for forming unions, which was against the laws of the time.
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I’m finally caught up and then some. And forever grateful to your posts here, which help connect everything.
that bit about Hortense wanting to be Esther's maid seemed to me an attempt to find a way to get back at Lady Dedlock. She certainly noticed Lady D's interest in Esther and she strikes me as a very spiteful, vengeful personality.
Babi, do you think Hortense would try to harm Esther if she thinks that would cause distress for Lady D.?
Mabel/Jean posted this link in The Library and I could only think of Dickens while reading it. Our reading and discussion, and also all those 1850s followers of Bleak House. Made me wonder if Dickens’ physical description of the Smallweeds is what makes us all dislike them so much.
Fiction and the Brain (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/opinion/sunday/the-neuroscience-of-your-brain-on-fiction.html?pagewanted=1&_r=4&sq=Your&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1332601260-cM1dr/rGQIYfgDmsCg8QsQ)
The novel, of course, is an unequaled medium for the exploration of human social and emotional life. And there is evidence that just as the brain responds to depictions of smells and textures and movements as if they were the real thing, so it treats the interactions among fictional characters as something like real-life social encounters
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I’ve got to reread that Hotense/Tulkinghorn section. I thought Hortense was wearing her own dress because that was what Lady D wore when she was with Jo.
JoanK, I agree with you about Richard’s choices. What else is there for someone like him, poor, but well-bred. He has already strongly stated that he does not want the church.
Babi and Marcie, do you think Mr. J hopes that the Richard – Ada romance will fade after Richard leaves for his tour of duty? Mr J can’t help but wonder how long Richard will want to stay in the army. Perhaps Ada will have a chance to meet some other young men.
What a surprise to find the Mrs. Chadband is one and the same as Esther’s godmother’s housekeeper. I wonder what secrets she has.
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Pedlin
Two different people sent me that article on Fiction and the Brain from the N.Y.Times re: Fiction and the Brain. Interesting but not world shaking.
Barb St. Aubrey
You wrote "Mr Boythorn does not appear to be caged."
That took me by surprise because the price he pays for not being caged is so extremely high. He is alone except for a servant. He has no relatives, very few old friends.
There are different kinds of cages -some are large and full of animals of ones own kind, some are small and cramped, some of them provide comfort and succor while others deprive the one inside of all the amenities that he craves. To many being caged is the only life they know. You have hit upon an important philosophical thread in your last remarks. And like most philosophical ideas it can be interpreted in many ways.
Your post also put me in a certain frame. This is what I saw:
Mr Dickens sits before a large table with his blue papers and his lists. There are about fifty small and large boxes on the table. All of them closed. Mr. D is thinking to himself 'Who should I let out this month? He thinks and opens up a box and the character pops out and stands next to him , like a puppet waiting to be animated by its creator.I will mix him with her. he thinks. Then he opens another box and thinks" they are not expecting that one in this scenario"he smiles to himself and opens another box. Onward and onward. Connecting them all with beautiful Poetic Prose that makes reading the book worth while.
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Jude, I really like your scenario of dickens writing, especially "they are not expecting that one in this scenario". :)
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It was definitely Hortense's dress that Lady Dedlock wore when she got Jo to take her around. In that scene much is made of the inconsistency between her "plain dress"--"She should be an upper servant by her attire"--and her refined, lady-like manner.
We read of it second, but I suspect Hortense approached Esther before going to London and getting in touch with Tulkinghorn. It happened before Esther left the neighborhood of Chesney Wold, and it would be a big deal for Hortense to come back there. She started out by thinking to get her revenge through Esther, and when that didn't work, cast her net wider.
I wondered what she meant by describing Lady D and herself as "high". Best-fitting definition in the Oxford English Dictionary is "haughty, pretentious, arrogant, overbearing; wrathful, angry".
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Yes, I too like the image I get of Dickens facing his boxes - and I need to say that to me being caged or not is not a good or bad thing - it is simply a way you look at life and some live attached to satisfying their needs and others live with little attachment to satisfying a need - in fact if you look at the characters in this story that I do not think are caged they are all on their own - Peepy is alone walking where ever he chooses - Skimpole has all but abandoned his family and it does not sound like he and his wife are the lovers of the century - and as you point out Mr Boythorn does not seem to have any attachment to family and friends - although, with his friendly way I wonder if there is more to his life that in not included in the story since the story is not centered around him. However, like those who are not caged they make each life choice not to satisfy someone or their view of society expectations or because of social circumstances that ties them to behavior any of which says they 'have to''... With that I see it is more difficult to find their hot button to persuade or seduce them to do things or think things.
I think this is the high wire Richard is walking - he does not want to be caged and thinks once he establishes his rightful place in society based in heritage and in money he can be free to make his own decisions - so he is caged in the sense he is 'needing' that recognition and as generous as John Jarndyce is he not only would be beholden to him but what JJ wants Richard to focus on would make Richard feel like a pop gun with a string attaching him to the gun where as, he wants to be like a planet or moon - separate but orbiting something that represents his heritage and acknowledged place.
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I think so too. Lady Dedlock borrowed her servant's dress when she went out looking for Jo. Including the 'wale'. It's Jo's term. When they meet Jo stares 'moodily at the veil', with a 'suspicion of her being a lady'. She has already been described, on the same page (276) by the narrator as having the appearance of 'an upper servant by her attire, yet, in her air and step she is a lady'. The 'plain dress and her refined manner...something exceedingly inconsistent.
Richard is overheard saying, when the case is settled I'll be provided for. Laboring over all those Jarndyce files has at least left him with that hope. That's what sickens his cousin John.
Dickens and philanthropy is an interesting question. It seems to me he comes down hard on those who practice it professionally to get social recognition or soothe their consciences. Help the poor and needy.
Sometimes, I think, Dickens comes between his characters and his readers. I have sympathy where he cariciturizes. Mrs Jellybe is geuinely public spirited. Mr Turveydrop is right about appearance being given a high priority.
What a book. My feeling is that everything we are seeing and hearing may be used as evidence later on.
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Jonathan, you say "What a book. My feeling is that everything we are seeing and hearing may be used as evidence later on." You continue to keep me on my toes with your posts.
Jude, I too can picture your idea of Dickens reviewing his boxes of characters and planning which one he will pop out in each chapter.
Babi, you indicate that it is prudent of Ada's guardian to ask Richard and her to remain on a 'cousins' basis for now. Barbara, if I understand your post, you think that Richard would be able to make good decisions about his life when/if the Chancery suit is settled. Pedln, I hadn't thought it through but it makes sense that Jarndyce might think that Richard's and Ada's love for one another might fade if they are apart. Richard is not steadfast in his choices of profession.
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My feeling is that everything we are seeing and hearing may be used as evidence later on.
Well put, Jonathan, I think you're right.
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So...every time we meet a new character, we should assume that he/she is introduced for a reason - and we will meet them in the future. Jonathan, I'd like to hear more about Dickens coming between his characters and his readers. I find that idea fascinating...I can't imagine an author purposedly doing such a thing.
I am amused at the image of Dickens sitting at this desk with closed boxes of blue pages, deciding which to let out into the next installment, Jude. When I read your post describing Dickens at work, I immediately thought olf Mr. Tulkinghorn- someone else with many closed boxes...full of secrets he has gathered on many of the people associated with the Chancery. In some ways he is like Dickens - he can turn to the secret information he has compiled whenever he needs to use it. He seems to be deeply involved with a wide range of such people, not just the rich clients like the Dedlocks. Take Gridley for example. Why the animosity towards this poor broken man? I cannot imagine how Tulkinghorn is connected to them - That's what makes this fun - watching Dickens mind at work. He seems to be enjoying himself, don't you think?
.
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Barbara, great thoughts on characters being caged.
Marcie asked: “What do you think about Jarndyce asking Richard and Ada to keep their relationship on a "cousin" basis only, when Richard goes into the Army?”
I was surprised by the request, but admired Mr. Jarndyce for taking such a bold step. Richard needs a wake up call. Maybe this will be it. On the flip side, Ada could have other suitors if she was “free of” Richard…
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Barbara do you see Tulkinghorn as one of the "caged"? I've been looking at the "caged" in terms of Miss Flite's birds. They are constantly threatened by Krook's cat, Lady Jane, who lurks at the door, waiting for the right moment to slip in and take advantage. They aren't the first birds we've seen in the story, nor is Krook's the first cat. I'm looking at cats as predators on the meek and helpless. Those in cages - as Barb describes are vulnerable to the designs of those who plot against them.
Wasn't Hortense described as a cat? - Somewhere I wrote a list of the adjectives used to describe her. And there's Smallweed, "clawing and scratching" whenever he faces opposition. I hope I never see that character again.
Esther is free from the bars of a cage - both physically and psychologically. I don't see her desire to care for others as confining, Barbara. I find her quite content in her own skin - constantly surprised that she is taken seriously, feeling more and more freedom to speak her mind.
It's Ada that is confined - and helpless. Caged. What does she do all day? Why does she get up in the morning?
What is her raison d'etre? Pedln, I share your hope that she will find someone else - but don't see that happening in the small space that is her life. And yet the poor thing tells Richard she'll be faithful at home waiting his return - but did I hear her tell him she'd understand if he found someone else.
Richard didn't take his Guardian's decision very badly at all. Hardly gave it more than a passing thought.
Esther tells us - "he remembered her by fits and starts, even with bursts of tears...but in a few minutes he would recklessly conjure up some undefinable means, by which they were both made to be made rich and happy for ever, and would become as gay as ever."
It occurred to me that the "terror" on Jarndyce's face when Richard expressed confidence in a positive outcome of the case - - that perhaps Jarndyce knows something more - and knows that Richard will not benefit from the outcome if it is ever decided. But that's in another little box on Dickens' table, isn't it Jude?
"wale" - yes, I see "veil" now - I forgot it was Jo talking and he'd pronounce it like that, I'll bet.
Pedln glad you have caught up. We've missed you..
I agree, it was a bit too much to learn that Mrs. Chadband is one and the same as Esther’s godmother’s housekeeper, Rachael. Clever of Dickens to insert her into the parlor with Jo, who has seen "the lady" - and with Guppy, who jumps at the news that Mrs. Chadband cared for Esther Summerson when a baby. ...Yes, I wonder too what information Mrs. Chadband is going to reveal - when Dickens is ready to take her out of one of his boxes... :D
I hope Sally listens to you when you say the posts helped to connect everything. Sally, as you read, go back to the posts that address the chapter you are on - I think you'll be surprised how much this helps you to understand - and catch up.
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I'm glad you're catching up to us, Sally.
Yes, I hadn't given enough attention to mrs. Flite's birds: caged as long as the lawsuit is going on, but due to be free when it's settled. And what were the names of the tings that she is going to free?
Richard's point of view, exactly. And yet, look what Richard does with his spare time (freedom?) when he decides law is not for him: gambles and gets into heavy debt. Bodes very ill for the future: inheritance or no.
We all had to make that decision at various points in our lives: what we would do with our lives (in fact, we make it every day!). Do we feel caged? Are we?
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JoanP, I don't think that Jarndyce knows anything specific about the outcome of the court case. I believe that his look of terror when Richard can't get it off his mind is because of "Tom" who killed himself over it. Was it Jarndyce who found his body? Jarndyce doesn't want to think about the case at all. He thinks it is the ruin of people to do so.
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Marcie
I agree with you. A person who finds one person dead of suicide will always suspect that someone else with the same problem is another possible victim to suicide.Therefore he would not want Richard depending on the determinatiion of the Court case for his fortune or his future.
If Freud himself was influenced by reading Dickens it shows that D. had an innate understanding of human nature. I mentioned this before but Dostoyevski also was deeply impressed by D. and came to England specifically to meet him. Dostoyevski was the master of the psychological novel
and if he was deeply influenced we must accept the fact that D. really understood the human soul, for better or for worse.
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"If Freud himself was influenced by reading Dickens it shows that D. had an innate understanding of human nature."
Jude, I agree with you completely - and this is the reason I have to beleive there is more to John Jarndyce than what we have seen so far. He is way to good to be true. He knows more than he has been letting on. It is almost as if Dickens is waiting for just the right moment to introduce the real John Jarndyce.
Don't you love the way Dickens pulls all of these characters into these big scenes? I'm looking forward to the film adapatation of Gridley's death scene in the Shooting Gallery. We see Mr. George leading Miss Flite - and Esther into the gallery - along with Mr. Bucket, disguised as an elderly doctor with a warrant Gridley's arrest. Gridley who lies dying - his last request to see - Miss Flite, of all people. Richard is there too, isn't he? And of course, John Jarndyce.
Gridley to Jarndyce - "You are a good man, superior to injustice..."
There was a lot said regarding the injustice of the Chancery, something shared by Gridley and Miss Flite. More questions than answers, though? Above all, why has Tulkinghorn issued this new warrant for Gridley's arrest? How can Gridley be of interest to this man - unless he's somehow connected to something much bigger than we have seen so far. Do we learn anything more about Miss Flite's suit?
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I think Tulkinghorn wanted Gridley arrested because Gridley threatened him with bodily harm. It's not the first time, either. Bucket tries to rally Gridley's spirits by saying: "Don't you remember when you first began to threaten the lawyers, and the peace was sworn against you two or three times a week?"
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I don't know, PEDLN. I can't imagine Hortense physically attacking Esther, but I suspect
she is perfectly capable of harming her in other ways.
I think Mr. Jarndyce is simply trying to protect Ada as best he can. He doesn't want any
commitments made that she might regret later.
[the brain] treats the interactions among fictional characters as something like real-life
social encounters.
Oh, my, yes. I vividly recall my grandmother becoming so involved with the characters in her favorite soap opera, that she would become distraught with anxiety
when one of them was going through a crisis...which was about every day!
I believe Tulkinghorn put out a warrant for Gridley's arrest because Gridley had dared to
approach him and rave at him. He was determined to punish Gridley's insolence, and the warrant would likely be for assault. As PAT notes, it wouldn't be the first time.
The scene of Gridley's death is a sad one. It really seems, though, to be a release he
might have been grateful for.
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Inspector Bucket is certainly willing to go to great lengths to get his man. He is described as stout and middle-aged, but he climbs on the roof of the shooting gallery to peer through the skylight and find Gridley.
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'That's what makes this fun - watching Dickens mind at work. He seems to be enjoying himself, don't you think?' JoanP - 546
Yes, I had something like that in mind regarding Dickens' charming narrative style. He's not only grandly ominscient, but intrusive as well. I can imagine some of the characters objecting to what is said about them. I'll look for examples. The author gets closer to the readers too, I'll guess.
What did Freud find in Dickens? Or Dostoyevsky? Artistry and creativity, I believe. Just as Engels must have read him too when he was writing about the English working class about the same time.
I had more to say, much more, but I'm called to lunch. Very stimulating posts. Dickens ties himself in knots with the figurative use of cages. I believe.
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PatH - it seems we can't go by any of the descriptions of Mr. Bucket. He's a quick change artist. The doctor disguise was a good example. Dickens had us seeing an elderly doctor at the door of the Shooting Gallery. I'm wondering how old he really is. This man has a heart of gold - He is too good, too soft for a police detective working as he does among the poor and the criminals. And yet, he doesn't let the bad guys get away. He reiminds me of Kojak in the old TV series. For some reason, I find him more believable - and more likable than John Jarndyce. Even though Jarndyce is shown performing countless acts of charity. Perhaps it is because Dickens hasn't let us in on what makes Jarndyce tick yet.
If you have to name the most admirable character in the novel so far...the one Dickens is holding up as a paragon of virtue, who would you nominate? Right now, I'd select Mr. Bucket - and Esther too, of course.
The last scene? As Gridley lay dying - Bucket tries to rally him - tempts him to come to court and have a good angry argument before the Magistrates. Invites him to fight with him... "to drop him right and left..." Although he wasn't really trying to rally him, was he? He knew he was dying...wasn't he just trying tohelp him in his last moments.
I read the last paragraph in chapter XXIV several times, trying to figure out who was speaking. Is Esther remembering Gridley's dying words?
"But to me, the shadow of that pair, one living and one dead, fell heavier on Richard's departure than the darkest night. And through Richard's farewell words, I head it echoed:
"Of all my old associations of all my old pursuits and hopes, of all the living and the dead world, this one poor soul alone comes natural to me, and I am fit for. There is a tie of many suffering years between us two, and it is the only tie I ever had on earth that Chancery has not broken."
Jonathan, will look for you after lunch - and perhaps a nap...
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Jonathan
You threw in the name of Engels in your post.
I just spent the past hour finding out how little I knew about this important personage.
Thank you for bringing me to understand how many worlds intertwined with that of Dickens.
How true it is "that no man is an island".
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I read the last paragraph in chapter XXIV several times, trying to figure out who was speaking. Is Esther remembering Gridley's dying words?
Yes, almost his last. It's what Gridley says when Miss Flite comes in, though he does say a bit more.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illvisitors.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illvisitors.jpg)
Visitors to the Shooting Gallery
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
IX
X |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Nov. 1852
Dec. 1852 |
CHAPTERS
26-29
30-32 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.26-29
Mar.31-Apr.4 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illyoungman.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illyoungman.jpg)
The Young Man
of the name of Guppy
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section we advance several of the previously started story lines, ending with a big plot development. Again, if you've read ahead please be careful not to give anything away to the rest of us.
Chapter XXVI Sharpshooter
1. Phil reminds Mr. George of how they met. What does this tell us about both men?
2. Mr. Smallweed says of Captain Hawdon: "Didn't he take us all in? Didn't he owe us immense sums, all round?" What do you suppose this is about.
Chapter XXVII More Old Soldiers Than One
1. Mr. Tulkinghorn is going to great lengths to gather information. What does he know? What is he trying to find out? Whose interest is he looking out for?
2. Mr. Bagnet uses subterfuges to hide the fact that he asks advice of his wiser wife. Why? Is she fooled? Do you approve?
Chapter XXVIII The Ironmaster
1. Can you think of a better way to handle a crowd of poor noble relations like Volumnia?
2. Why does Mr. Rouncewell, the ironmaster, make Sir Leicester so angry and uneasy? What is the underlying social and political climate at this time?
3. Why is Lady Dedlock so desolate?
XXIX The Young Man
1. What is Guppy up to?
2. Lady Dedlock keeps her icy detachment no matter what. Is this good?
3. This chapter contains an important plot development. Comment.
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Jude and Jonathan, what interesting posts about the other great minds that were likely influenced by Dickens....Freud, Dostoyevsky, Engels.
I found a list of authors who were contemporaries of Dickens at http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_authors_were_contemporaries_of_Charles_Dickens:
* Louisa May Alcott
* Edward Bulwer-Lytton
* Thomas and Jane Welsh Carlyle
* Wilkie Collins
* George Eliot
* Ralph Waldo Emerson
* Thomas Hardy
* Leigh Hunt
* Henry James
* Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
* William T. Sherman
* William Makepeace Thackeray
* Leo Tolstoy
* Anthony Trollope
* Mark Twain
PatH, you say, "Inspector Bucket is certainly willing to go to great lengths to get his man. He is described as stout and middle-aged, but he climbs on the roof of the shooting gallery to peer through the skylight and find Gridley." LOL, yes, it must have been precarious to be on the rool peeking through the skylight! He is like a dog with a bone, following up on a case, but he has a very human side as he shows when trying to buck up Gridley when he sees how sick he really is. JoanP, you ask, " he wasn't really trying to rally him, was he? He knew he was dying...wasn't he just trying to help him in his last moments." I don't know, perhaps Bucket did think that having a cause to fight for might rally Gridley. In either case, he showed a caring side. He isn't ALL business.
Babi, you say "The scene of Gridley's death is a sad one. It really seems, though, to be a release he might have been grateful for.." I think you are right. Gridley finally gave up. Fighting the Courts seemed to become too much for him. I think that Dickens has really brought to life the extreme effects the legal system had on many people.
JoanP, you may be right in looking for more from Jarndyce. I think that I've been fairly satisfied with what we;ve seen so far. We've been shown a person who has been affected deeply by the court case. He's seen relatives ruined...to the point of committing suicide...over the case. He feels that he has to stay far away from it and do his best to warn Richard to keep away. He is someone who seems to provide for others in secret, when that is possible. His main stance is to avoid thanks, or even mention of his good deeds. He seems not to want anyone to be beholding to him. He is a somewhat reticent person and hides his feelings. He tries to avoid negative thoughts about anyone (he hides in the growlry when there is an "east wind"). How do the rest of you see Jarndyce so far?
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I had to laugh a lot in Chapter XXV. Mrs. Snagsby has her husband all figured out! ;) While the preacher is talking and using his oratory technique to single out audience members, and has Mr. Snagsby in his focus, pointing his finger at him, Mrs. Snagsby is interpreting every word the preacher says to confirm her fears that Mr. Snagsby is having an affair!
Poor Mr. Snagsby also is in the dark. "Mr. Snagsby cannot make out what it is that he has had to do with. Something is wrong somewhere, but what something, what may come of it, to whom, when, and from which unthought of and unheard of quarter is the puzzle of his life." The way that Mr. Bucket tried to distract and mislead Snagsby in his dealings with Jo and Hortense, has left Snagsby completely in the dark, feeling that "the secret [whatever secret that may be] may take air and fire, explode, and blow up--Mr. Bucket only knows whom."
Although Snagsby is in the dark about it, his feelings may portend something momentous. Dickens lines could be taken on two levels....on the one hand, funny exaggeration because of Snagsby's active imagination.. and on the other hand, a foretelling of some secret blowing up...and causing grave harm.
Anyone have other thoughts on this installment before we move on to the next one tomorrow?
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It has a humorous chapter, Marcie...a bit of comic relief coming right after Gridley's death scene. It took me a while to realize the meaning of "the light of Terewth" in Rev. Chadband's sermonizing...I kept looking for a footnote, until it came to me that this was his exaggerated pronunciation of "the light of Truth."
Poor Mr. Snagsby had no idea what was the matter, but knew that something was the matter. Poor Mrs. Snagsby too - in tears - "cataleptic" is how Dickens describes her. Exactly what is it that she suspects of Mr. Snagsby? She shrieked at every mention of Jo's parents by the Rev. Chadband.
The Installment ended with Mr. Snagsby slipping Jo another half crown to keep quiet in the future about the woman. Someone has heard this. A ghostly shade, frilled and night-capped follows the law stationer from the room and up the stairs. Now there are two shadows following the poor man? Who could this be in a firlled nightcap in his own home. Guster? hahah - Mr. Bucket in yet another disguise? Do we know what Hortense is up to these days?
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JoanP, it took me a long while to figure out the "light of terewith/truth." I have been assuming that Mrs.. Snagsby thinks that Mr. Snagsby is Jo's father. And I think that it is Mrs. Snagsby at the end (in her nightcap) who is following Mr. S. His giving the coin to Jo must reinforce what she thinks she has found out about him.
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Can't you just picture Jo sitting with the Rev. Chadband, as he sermonized - puzzling as we did on the meanting of "Terewth" - and probably everything else he was saying.
Yes, I thought too that was what was driving Mrs. Snagsby mad - the idea that her husband was showing such interest in this orphan boy - because he was his son. Many orphans in this story, no? Do you suppose we will learn of Jo's parentage before Dickens puts down his pen?
Last minute comments/questions on this Installment before moving on -
Do we know for a fact that Mr. George is George Rouncewell - Mrs. Rouncewell, the housekeeper of Chesney Wold's son?
Did you notice that Mr. Guppy was in the company of Mrs. Chadband, the former Miss Rachael, at the Chancery - and the long-awaited meeting between Esther and her childhood housekeeper at Miss Barbary's came and went without this being a big scene. They recognized one another, had a polite conversation. I suppose this is all 'Mr. Guppy wanted to confirm.
BUT WHY WAS she in the Chancery? Is she the guest of Mr. Guppy? I don't remember how that was explained...
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Now looking through that list of Dickens' contemporaries, Marcie. Thank you for that. Dickens counted a number of them his close friends - certainly Wilkie Collins (http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/collins/dickens1.html) - one of his best friends - they even collaborated on stories for Household Words.. Dickens' daughter Katie married Wilkie's brother Charles.
The coming Installment is huge - I hope everyone is in the mood to catch up - it will be hard to discuss the fourth chapter without giving anything away.
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How do the rest of you see Jarndyce so far?
I think Mr. Jarndyce is a man of many secrets. He is a man who cares deeply about people and does everything he can to help others. Yet, he is a man with a great burden of some sort. I am not sure it is just the law case that burdens him.
I read Woman in White by Wilkie Collins and thoroughly enjoyed it. Was it with this group?
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Yes, we did "Woman in White" here, Laura. I sense the Wilkie influence in Lady Dedlock's character and the misty, mysterious settings whenever she appears, do you?
I agree about the John Jarndyce's "burden" as you put it. Surely Dickens is planning a big expose of just what it is he is carrying. I think it's more than Tom Jarndyce's suicide.
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Laura, I checked the archived Woman in White discussion. Indeed, you were in it; it was a really good discussion. As it happens, I had to reread the Collins a few weeks ago for a course I'm taking at Politics and Prose. It was interesting reading the two books simultaneously. For one thing, the feel, or mood, of the two books was very similar. I really felt soaked in the mid-1800s. (W in W was written 7 years after Bleak House.) There are some similarities of plot and approach too, though Dickens is much the better writer.
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We're starting the next section today, but don't let that stop you from talking about previous sections. There's plenty left to say.
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I think Jude was right about why Freud and Dostoyevsky admired Dickens, JONATHAN. His
insight into human nature and motivations is truly great.
I think that must have been Esther speaking, JOANP. She is comparing the two 'departures',
Gridley and Richard. I don't have Richard's parting words in my notes, so I don't know
what he said that echoed Gridley. If you have time, maybe you could remind me.
Oh, and yes, Mr. George is Mrs. Rouncewell's son, the one who went into the Army.
You'll find him listed in the index of characters. Army...do you suppose that is where
he knew Capt. Hawdon?
MARCIE, I entirely agree with you summary of John Jarndyce. I have yet to come across a
single jarring note in anything I've read about him. I think he is exactly what he appears
to be.
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LOL, moment of truth!! I’ve been sitting here trying to pronounce it as Chadband would say it. Can’t. I’m with you all, poor Jo – and Mr. Snagsby, too.
2. Mr. Bagnet uses subterfuges to hide the fact that he asks advice of his wiser wife. Why? Is she fooled? Do you approve?
I don’t think she’s fooled one minute. “The old girl” is on top of everything. I loved Chpt. 27, it was like a breath of fresh air. A normal, happy, loving family, albeit one with their own idiosyncracies. Two little girls who loved their “Bluffy.” A son willingly following in his father’s footsteps. Good friends getting together for fellowship, as well as for consul and confidences.
Babi and Marcie, I'm with you about Mr. Jarndyce. He is as he appears.
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I think that must have been Esther speaking, JOANP. She is comparing the two 'departures',
Gridley and Richard. I don't have Richard's parting words in my notes, so I don't know
what he said that echoed Gridley
That's right, Babi. We don't hear what Richard said, but it makes Esther think of Gridley's almost-last words to Miss Flite.
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Before we go on to the next chapters, which are absolutely wonderful, I want to bring up two very small points that perhaps show how Dickens pays as much attention to tiny details as well as seeing the broad picture.
I wrote down this sentence:
"My little woman says Snagsby to the sparrows, likes to have her religion rather sharp,you see."
With those few words we see what kind of person we are dealing with in Mrs. Snagsby and the fact that Mr S. has only the sparrows to tell what he thinks.
When the policeman has Jo in his hands he calls him a "gonoph" which is the Yiddish word for
thief. I was so struck by this that I went to a couple of sites regarding the use of that word in the context of this book. Almost every site that mentions the word refers back to Bleak House .
Some sites push the envelope and say that it is from the two words Gone Off. Most sites agree that this yiddish word entered the British language because of so many Jewish immigrants who had push carts which were constantly being robbed and the owners yelling,"GONOPH,GONOPH !!!
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I'm glad we're reading this book so carefully, Jude; we catch more of these nifty details.
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We've got 3 more or less comic couples.
The Snagsbys: she pokes into his business and inflicts unbearable religion on him, finally pursuing him with her inept but thorough detecting, concluding that Jo is his son. I love the end of chapter XXV, with its ominous reference to Adam and Eve as Mrs. S follows him around. "For the watchful Mrs. Snagsby is there too--bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh, shadow of his shadow."
The Smallweeds: I don't find them funny, I find them creepy and depressing. He sits there, almost incapacitated, doing little but thinking about money and yelling and throwing pillows at his childish and even more incapacitated wife, sliding down in his chair and being shaken up again.
The Bagnets: as pedln says, they're a breath of fresh air--wholesome and loving, funny only in their harmless idiosyncrasies.
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'BUT WHY WAS she in the Chancery? Is she the guest of Mr. Guppy? I don't remember how that was explained.'
Good question, JoanP. I think the love-smitten Guppy saw an opportunity to get close to the one he loved...for a moment. Trying to read Esther's mind is always interesting. Those last two paragraphs of Chapter 24, I believe, have Esther revealing her premonition that Richard will end up like Gridley. Chancery will kill him too. He already has the Chancellor describing him as a 'vexatious and capricious infant', and has 'seriously reproved him for trifling with time and not knowing his mind.' (beginning of Ch 24) And that, said Richard, is 'a pretty good joke, I think.'
That is interesting detail, Jude. Gonoph caught my eye, too. The Hebrew meaning is thief. But in Yiddish the word is much more nuanced. There is a meaning that would suggest another aspect of, as Marcie points out, the caring side of Mr Bucket. From Leo Rosten's book, The Joys of Yiddish, gonef could also mean, an ingenious child, or a mischievous, fun-loving prankster, as well as a clever person, or a shady tricky character.
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Jonathan: I love that you quoted Leo Rosen: "The Joys of Yiddish", an old favorite of mine. Any of you who don't know it, you're missing something. I'll nnever forget getting kicked out of a restaurant because I was quoting passages to friends, and we were laughing so hard, we almost rolled out of our seats.
Dickens is the last person I would have thought of using a Yiddish phrase, so when I saw "gonoph", I thought "No, it must mean something else."
Do you think Dickens put the Bagnets in as an "antidote" to the Smallwoods and Snagbys? Especially in reguards to his description of the women in the family. I'll bet he got complaints from his women readers about portraying all these stupid wives.
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Joan K
Lest we forget....How about two other wives: Mrs Jellyby and Mrs. Pardiggle.
And not a wife but pretty awful anyway: Volumnia Dedlock.
Every time I see that name I giggle. And more come to mind.....Hortense for one and then the girl with no childhood-Judy Smallweed.
To balance them out we have Esther and Caddy and perhaps lady Dedlock. And of course Mrs.Rouncewell with her successful sons.
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This is great that so many of you catch, and pursue, details that I miss. I appreciate discussing this book with each of you. "Gonoph" is so interesting. I would not have thought that Dickens would have used a Yiddish word but your explanation makes sense, JudeS, "Most sites agree that this yiddish word entered the British language because of so many Jewish immigrants who had push carts which were constantly being robbed and the owners yelling,"GONOPH,GONOPH !!" I love the first few of the alternative meanings, Jonathan, "an ingenious child, or a mischievous, fun-loving prankster, as well as a clever person, or a shady tricky character."
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I love Mrs. Bagnet. Speaking of favorite characters, for me she ranks up there with Esther,
Mr. Jarndyce, and Detective Bucket. She is a little larger than life, but so hearty,
cheerful and wise.
What a sharp eye, JUDE! That brief sentence from Snagsby does reveal so much. I hadn't
thought of that, but it is a sad reflection that the poor man is talking to birds. I do
hope he will find a friend.
Gonoph is Yiddish? I'm glad you pointed that out; I thought it was just some bit of
slang of the day and gave it no further thought. And then JONATHAN found some more for us.
Great!!
Speaking of odd words, Mr. Smallweed, uttering sounds like a ‘paviour’s rammer’??? This,
from what I can discover, is a paver’s rammer. The machine that paver’s use to set paving
stones. Doesn't that bring up a picture of a loud, angry, sputtering man, too furious to
speak clearly?
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Who needs the Norton Critical footnotes with the input from all of you here. I went right by the constable's description of Jo as "an obstinate young gonoph" who refused to move on...without any thought to the meaning or derivation of the word. Norton's footnote defined "gonoph" as a pickpocket, which fit - as Jo was thought to have stolen the half crown in his pocket.
Jonathan - this is the second time that Mrs. Chadband/Miss Rachael's presence has strained credibility. The first, that she was present at that crucial moment in the Snagsbys' parlor when Guppy turned up to hear her say that she cared for Esther as a child. Then, she turned up at the Chancery with Guppy and spoke to Esther, confirming Guppy's suspicions that there was a link to...well, a link. Of course this could be esplained - Guppy worked for Kenge and Carstone - knew that Richard was to appear in court that morning, assumed that Esther would be with him and then found some pretext to bring Mrs. Chadband to court. I wonder if we will ever learn how he did that. Can't you see Dickens puzzling out this whole scenario before putting it to paper?
Babi - I'm not surprised that Mr. George turned to his friend Matt for advise about what to do about Mr. Tulkinghorn's request...but was tickled at how he took Mrs. Bagnet's advice without question. I think she told him to do what he was inclined to do in the first place - turn down Tulkinghorn's request to hand over Captain Hawdon's letters.
I'm a bit puzzled over Mr. George's relationship with his mother. His full name is not Mr. George, but Mr. George Rouncewell? He sounds as if he hasn't seen his mother who lives in the country for quite a long time. Did I forget something? Does Mrs. Rouncewell believe Mr. George is dead? Help! Her grandson, who is sweet on Rosa, is the son of another son? Do we know the other son's name?
Mr. George is a character who also belongs in the "good guys" column - even if he owes Mr. Smallweed - which is not a good thing. Mr. Smallweed seems to hate him - not so Judith. I'm thinking that Mr. Smallweed may have seen Mr. G put some papers in his breast pocket. They may even try to take these papers by force when he returns to Mr. Tulkinghorn's with his negative answer to turn them over. Dickens may have taken the opportunity of the visit to the Bagnets to leave those papers with them, rather than carry them back when he returns to Tulkinghorn's place.
I'm really getting into the plot, sitting right at Dickens' elbow as he writes... :D
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Feel free to give him some advice now and then, JoanP. Tell him that he may have a credibility problem with some readers. No doubt he will remind you on any specific that he prepared the reader some hundred pages earlier. And the book being so convoluted, the reader will probably give him the benefit of the doubt. I read somewhere that Henry James described BLEAK HOUSE as a construction job.
'I'll bet he got complaints from his women readers about portraying all these stupid wives.'
Wonderful, JoanK. No doubt the author got some feedback from women readers regarding the portrayal of wives. Nevertheless, I believe, on balance, intelligence in the book is weighted in favour of women. The majority of his readers would have been women. It's their lives and their problems that make up a big part of the story. Dickens does seem to put a lot of effort into keeping things balanced, doesn't he? My heart bleeds for some of the male characters. Including Mr Bagnet. Reduced to the role of domestic policeman. And Snagsby has only the birds for company!
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I feel very sorry for Snagsby, but I don't feel sorry for Bagnet. I think he has what he wants. Their relationship is loving, not adversarial. She is wiser than he, but he takes her advice willingly, and without losing his dignity in the process, and he's still the head of the household.
And I really feel sorry for Mr. Pardiggle and Mr. Jellyby. In fact, sometimes when you look at Dickens' couples, you wonder if marriage is really a happy ending. ;)
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The Rouncewells are confusing. George is the younger son, and has been estranged from the family for some time. I don't remember if they know he's still alive. The older son is the father of Watt, the grandson who is sweet on Rosa. He is also the ironmaster of chapter XXVIII. I agree that George is a 'good guy'. He isn't very respectable, and has some shady dealings, but he is good-hearted and honorable.
JoanP, you're right that Smallweed saw George put some papers in his pocket. I kept expecting S. to get Tulkinghorn to have the papers taken from George, but he didn't.
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I am caught up on the reading, but short on time today and tomorrow. I am trying to piece everything together by thinking back on what we have already read. I think I may read the Spark Notes summaries to remind myself. There is so much to remember with this book! Honestly, I could not get through this book without you all.
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JoanP and Pat, yes, I agree that Bleak House often has the same mysterious feel that Woman in White had. I can’t remember enough of the plot of Woman in White to recall if Lady Dedlock reminds me of her though. I do have Wilkie Collins’ The Moonstone, planning to read it someday.
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There is so much to remember with this book!
I think I'm really reading the book twice, I go back so much to check things or straighten them out.
Laura, you'll like The Moonstone whenever you get to it.
Anyone who hasn't finished this section (through XXIX) will not want to read beyond the next 2 posts.
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George Rouncewell's status is still unclear, isn't it, JOANP? We have strong evidence that
he ran away to the Army and was gone for many years. We still need some explanation as to
why he hasn't seen his mother. He has family; why is he all alone except for Phil Squod?
(Another very interesting name. I wonder if it means anything?) The eldest son, so far,
would simply be Mr. Rouncewell.
We have in Ch. 28 a summary of Lord Leicester’s view of society, station, education for the masses, and duty. All in all, what did you think of this capsule summary of the upper class viewpoint of the times?
BTW, I found no definition for a word "squod", but 'quod' is British slang for jail. Probably means
nothing in terms of this story, but it does open doors for the imagination. ;)
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The talk of Wilkie Collins and his books recalls to mind my reading of The Moonstone when I was very young. I was absolutely thrilled. It would never have occurred to me to compare his writing style with Dickens'. Then I would have disagreed with you, Pat, about Dickens being the better writer. Not now. Your activity at Politics and Prose sounds interesting. Bleak House, it seems to me, could be made to fit both categories. It's more social and judicial than political, but there is the aside that the author allowed himself in the Moving On chapter, when he suggests that it is the guys in parliament should be told to move on, rather than crossing sweeper boys.
Babi, your right about Sir Leicester's views on the state of the country's foundations is little more than a capsule summary. Dickens probably thought it was enough to convery this aristocrat's concerns. People forgetting their places in a class society made him nervous. He wanted no part of being a part of a vanished ancien regime like in France.
Tensions are rising all around in this instalment. The major characters all fear something, want something, hide something, work toward something or show some dramatically intersting tendency. Suspicion. Dread. Love.
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Finally, at the end of chapter 29 we get a real breakthrough..one to tear at the heartstrings if you will.
Lady Dedlock:"Oh, my child,my child! Not dead in the first hours of her life, as my cruelsister told me, but sternly nurturedby her, after she had renounced me and my name!
O my child, O my child!"
So one BIG mystery put to rest. However in reading these last few paragraphs of this chapter I felt the soul of The Grimm Brothers invading me (or Dickens). Very powerful but slightly overdramatic.
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So one BIG mystery put to rest. However in reading these last few paragraphs of this chapter I felt the soul of The Grimm Brothers invading me (or Dickens). Very powerful but slightly overdramatic.
Overly dramatic --- yes! That''s the melodrama promised by the blurb on the back of the book!
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OK, I think I have finally got everything straight! I cut and pasted key segments of Sparknotes into a Word document, by chapter. I would be happy to share it, but it is six pages long and I thought too long to post. If one of the discussion leaders would like to post it in a link in the heading, I would be happy to help do that. After that exercise, my brain needs a rest. I'll comment on this section tomorrow.
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I read somewhere that Henry James described BLEAK HOUSE as a construction job.
Jonathan, I'll agree with Henry James on that - to a point. A carefully worked out, carefully constructed plot. Everything bit of information has a part in the drama - like one of those Lego kits the kids are building these days. Did you notice George explainging the types of people who come into his shooting range - he mentioned French women coming in to practice. Do you think that was mentioned for a reason?
But I'm sure you'll agree there is so much more than the plot and the mystery surrounding Esther Summerson...The plot kept some of Dickens' readers interested - but there were the social issues they were concerned about...
-AND there was Dickens' prose - which tells more of the story than meets the eye.
I loved the way he opened the most dramatic chapter in the book - the contrast between Chesney Wold when Lady Dedlock is not in residence - "dead, cold, somber" - and then the house in town when she arrives - "warm and alive." All the time Sir Leicester sits in another room, happily reading his paper, while Guppy reveals his detective work and Lady Dedlock is confronted with evidence that will ruin her. I'm thinking that Sir Leicester will not want a life without her. I think he needs her warmth in his home and will forgive her anything to keep her. None of this is said here in so many words, but I think Dickens prose conveys this message... I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Sir Leicester knew the child hadn't died all along... and that he has retained Mr. Tulkinghorn to keep that information from his wife...
I'm away from home this week - will try to peep in whenever possible. This discussion is addictive!
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Yes, Dickens liked his melodrama at times.
We were all becoming more and more certain that Lady Dedlock would turn out to be Esther's mother, but this tells us something else important. She didn't know that Esther had lived. That's hugely important to her character. Whatever her motives for marrying Sir Leicester and becoming the rich, bored leader of society, she wasn't selfishly abandoning her own child.
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Laura, if you've got everything straight, you're ahead of the rest of us. If you want to share your cut-and-paste, if you don't mind emailing it, you could just send it to me and I'l take it from there. If you click on my name in the heading, you get an email. If you click on it anywhere else where it's blue, you get my profile, which includes the email address. If you don't want to do that, we'll work out something.
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PatH - do you think she really did NOT recognize the resemblance between herself and Esther when they met for the first time that morning in the church in Lincolnshire? She showed such interest in Ada and Rosa's beauty - perhaps wondering if her daughter, had she lived, would be as beautiful...but did she recognize the resemblance that struck Guppy as so remarkable. Did anyone else see the resemblance? John Jarndyce? Sir Leicester?
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I think she must have recognized the resemblance on some level--her behavior toward Esther was somewhat odd--but it probably wasn't quite conscious. Esther, too, wasn't quite sure why she was so disconcerted by Lady D.
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Laura, it just occurred to me that it's probably a copyright violation for me to put a big chunk of the Spark notes on our site, and we have to be careful of that, so I guess better not. (It wouldn't be a violation to share with a friend, but the site is open to any public.)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illnurse.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illnurse.jpg)
Nurse and Patient
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
X
XI |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Dec. 1852
Jan. 1853 |
CHAPTERS
30-32
33-35 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Mar.31-Apr.4
April 5--Apr.9 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illappointed.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illappointed.jpg)
The Appointed Time
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
In this section we advance several of the previously started story lines, ending with a big plot development. Again, if you've read ahead please be careful not to give anything away to the rest of us.
Chapter XXX Esther's Narrative
1. What do you make of Mrs. Woodcourt on her second visit? What message is she conveying to Esther?
2. Mr. Jellyby and Mr. Turveydrop meet. Were you surprised at the outcome? What would you have expected?
3. What revealing remark does Mr. Jellyby make about marriage?
4. What impressed you most about Esther’s stay with the Jellybys and the preparations for the marriage?
5. What do you think of Mr. Turveydrop’s gracious offer to Prince and Caddy?
.
Chapter XXXI Nurse and Patient
1. Where do you see another portent of evil to come in a Dickens description?
2. We meet Jenny and her friend again. What do you believe Dickens is saying in all he presents to us in these wretchedly poor women?
3. Where would you place Charley in your list of memorable Dickens characters? How would you describe her?
4 . Why do you think Dickens chose this outcome of Esther’s illness?
Chapter XXXII The Appointed Time
The scene changes, and we are returned to London.
1. What is the ‘appointed time’ to which the title refers?
2. How does the conversation of the gossipy, respectable ladies of Dickens' day compare with ours?
3. What has Krook promised to turn over to Weevle and Guppy? What is their significance?
4. Is Weevle quite as naive as he seems? Why do you think so?
5. What is the thick, nauseous yellow liquid? How did it get on Weevle’s window sill, since his room is at the top of the house?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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XXIX 2. Lady Dedlock keeps her icy detachment no matter what. Is this good?
What a turn around for Lady Dedlock. From icy detachment to a 'cry going upward from a wild figure on its knees'...'O my child, my child! Not dead as I was told!
Ths from the woman, who we were told in Chapter 2, 'If she could be translated to Heaven to-morrow, she might be expected to ascend without any rapture.'
Life with Sir Leicester has been that good to her. She has had no reason to show any character to this point. Is she over reacting? Will we be seeing some character in her now?
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We all have holes in our Education. I don't know what Spark Notes are or what they do or where you find them.
Are they like the Cliff Notes that were used to cheat on College exams when you didn't want to read the material?
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We all have holes in our Education. I don't know what Spark Notes are or what they do or where you find them.
Are they like the Cliff Notes that were used to cheat on College exams when you didn't want to read the material?
Yes, they are like Cliff Notes. However, I find the on line version of Sparknotes to be much more thorough. I only read the chapter summaries, not any analysis or other sections, until I finish the book. The other parts contain spoilers.
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/bleakhouse/
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Laura, it just occurred to me that it's probably a copyright violation for me to put a big chunk of the Spark notes on our site, and we have to be careful of that, so I guess better not. (It wouldn't be a violation to share with a friend, but the site is open to any public.)
Oh, I hadn't thought of that, Pat. Well, my e-mail address is available if you click on my name, so e-mail me if you would like a copy. How's that? :)
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PatH - do you think she really did NOT recognize the resemblance between herself and Esther when they met for the first time that morning in the church in Lincolnshire? She showed such interest in Ada and Rosa's beauty - perhaps wondering if her daughter, had she lived, would be as beautiful...but did she recognize the resemblance that struck Guppy as so remarkable. Did anyone else see the resemblance? John Jarndyce? Sir Leicester?
I think Lady Dedlock did, on some level, recognize something in Esther's looks and/or manner. I do think whatever she recognized made her uncomfortable, made her feel some emotion. Lady Dedlock is very careful not to show emotion. She is very poised. I think she felt some emotion stir regarding Esther, and that is why Lady Dedlock turned away from Esther and would not interact with her.
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I really found Dickens' description of Lady Dedlock's discovery overdone, JUDE. How
would an actress say those lines without sounding like a thorough 'ham'? Still, we now know
why Lady Dedlock never once considered that Esther might be her daughter. She thought her
daughter was long dead.
2. Lady Dedlock keeps her icy detachment no matter what. Is this good?
I think the ability to maintain this 'icy detachment' is a protective instinct. It's not
uncommon, is it, among the power classes who don't want to show any weakness or vulnerability? For a woman in Lady Dedlock's social position, it's almost a 'must'. "Good" is
open to debate.
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Laura :)
It's interesting to see how much Lady D. maintains her control in the face of this stunning news. She cracks some, but quickly recovers, and stays cold and calm until Guppy leaves, only then breaking down. Guppy had already sent her several letters. I wonder what in the way of clues she had already.
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'If she could be translated to Heaven to-morrow, she might be expected to ascend without any rapture.'
I wonder if Lady D was always this detached? Up to this point, we've heard of her boredom - out in Chesney Wold, even in the glittering life she led in London. This boredom must have been apparent to everyone - especially to Sir Leicester.
There must have been some influential people who managed to take that baby, kidnap that baby, get her to Kenge and Carstone and then to Miss Barbary. At this point we don't know who wanted to get rid of the baby. What we do know is that Sir Leicester married her, that he does anything to keep her happy, even though he seems to keep her caged. She never seems to make a move without him. And surely, if someone like Mr. Guppy, can take one look at the portrait that hangs in Chesney Wold and see the likeness between the two, so MUST Sir Leicester see the resemblance when Esther appeared in the little church in Lincolnshire. And John Jarndyce must have noticed, seeing the two of them together.
I believe Sir Leicester and John Jarndyce must have known of the relationship. How many people know that Lady D's baby lives?
I see Lady D's detachment as depression - and didn't find the scene at all overdone when in private, following Guppy's revelation, she collapsed and let down her reserve. A good actress may have been able to deliver those words with feeling, Babi. I'm looking forward to seeing the filmed version of that scene.
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We were posting together, Pat. Guppy has stepped forward as a character of note, hasn't he? Though nervous, fumbling with his notes, he was still so sure of the evidence he had to support his "case" - he was a match for Lady D's detachment. It was fun seeing her maintain her fascade, though clearly she was affected by what he was telling her. He seems to have beaten Mr. Tulkinghorn with the information regarding Nemo's identification. Where did he get those letters? Were the letters that Guppy will bring to Lady D the same as those that were taken from the porte-manteau in Nemo's room at Krook's? Did he get them from Krook? Tulkinghorn was in the room too, wasn't he? But Tulkinghorn is still trying to establish the relationship between Nemo and Hawdon. The mystery continues...
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Thanks for the link to the sparknotes, Laura. We need all the help we can get with this book. I took a quick glance at the outline of Chapter 26, and was reminded of Smallweed's visit to the Shooting Gallery to persuade George to provide a specimen of Captain Howdon's handwriting for Mr Tulkinghorn. George is suspicious. He knows that Captain Howdon was heavily indebted to Smallweed, believes Howdon may still be alive, and is certain that Smallweed would like to know his whereabouts. There's more, but it's the indebtedness that's interesting.
Richard's friends are worried about the debt he may be getting into, and sure enough, Smallweed admits to George that he has 'done a little business with a pupil of yours.' George replies, 'I'm sorry to hear it.' 'I'll advise him to do no more business' with you. 'There's no more business there...the young gentleman, to my knowledge, is brought to a dead halt.'
But Smallweed disagrees. He finds lots of reasons why Richard should be good for more credit:
Not quite a dead halt, I think. He has good friends. He is good for his pay. He is good for the selling price of his commission. He is good for his chance in a lawsuit, and he is good for his chance in a wife.
Mr Smallweed could probably find even Mr Skimpole worthy of a loan. But Skimpole is too smart to go that route.
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Smallweed certainly knows how to squeeze the last drop of blood out of a turnip, doesn't he? I think it's George who feels sure that Hawdon is dead, though.
And I have to modify my statement of a while back that Richard only wastes money he has. That's no longer true.
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As I get ready to read the next section, I am working hard to keep the men associated with the shooting gallery and the military straight. It seems like Mr. Captain Hawden came out of the blue. We find out he is the character named Nemo, so, in a way, he has been a part of the story all along. Nevertheless, this is the part of the story that I am finding I really have to concentrate on.
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what a book, what a book.....books like this were made to have imput from many to
give excitement to reading it I think.....I can imagine everyone reading their copy after the next excerpt was published and the mixed opinions being vented
thought I was so much behind everyone, but notice that today is the last day for chapter 29 which is right where I am....
everyone's thoughts are so interesting; and especially enjoyed your post Jude about how Dickens may have written his books
This is what I saw:
Mr Dickens sits before a large table with his blue papers and his lists. There are about fifty small and large boxes on the table. All of them closed. Mr. D is thinking to himself 'Who should I let out this month? He thinks and opens up a box and the character pops out and stands next to him , like a puppet waiting to be animated by its creator.I will mix him with her. he thinks. Then he opens another box and thinks" they are not expecting that one in this scenario"he smiles to himself and opens another box. Onward and onward. Connecting them all with beautiful Poetic Prose that makes reading the book worth while.
just checking in...still here
Deb
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Deb, you did it! All caught up...until tomorrow anyway. :D Congratulations! Oh, I agree with you. I really wanted to read Bleak House - but never could have stuck with it on my own. I know I'd have given up by now. Everyone has been such a tremendous help with the many aspects of Dickens' story.
.
Laura, the way I've been keeping each character straight in my mind is to consider how each new arrival on the scene relates to Esther - and how Esther relates to Bleak House and the Jarndyce case. I find that the list of grouped characters that Babi has put together has been a great help. Several of us have printed out the list and keep it ready for quick reference. It's in the heading in case you want to try that.
It wasn't until this installment that the connection between Smallweed's grimy connexions and the Jarndyce case has come into focus. Richard's gambling debts have his attention. While John Jarndyce takes care of Richard's debts, Smallweed seems to have other plans how to use him in the future. It's a good thing Richard is leaving town. Not sure if Smallweed is aware of this.
The connection between Mr. George, his army buddies and the Dedlocks was unclear for a while - until the other Rouncewell brother- George's name is George Rouncewell, I assume - came on the scene. We haven't really discussed that brother - but do know the beautiful Rosa, his future daughter-in-law. He wants to take her from Lady Dedlock, send her to school...get her some education for a few years , so that she will be a worthy wife for his son.
I can see why this would be upsetting for Lady Dedlock, but why does it anger Sir Leicester so much? Lady Dedlock seems willing to let the decision be Rosa's...
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JOANP, it was my impression, from Esther's early description of her childhood, that the
woman we later learned was her aunt was obsessed with the 'disgrace' of her sister's
behavior. She was determined to hide it away, and sacrificed her own life to protecting
the family's reputation. It was easy enough for her to do, since she was there when the
baby was born. And lawyers were accustomed to help the upper classes conceal their
'mistakes'. The sister would have had to have some money of her own, but there is nothing
to indicate that she did not. Poor families are usually not that concerned with society's
opinion. :-\
As near as I can make out, Sir Leicester is angry at the idea that anyone can be better
off than in the company of his wife, and under his protection. Lady Dedlock, who truly
cares about Rosa, wants her to be happy even if that means she leaves. She is not a heartless
woman, merely a deeply sad one.
I have to modify my statement of a while back that Richard only wastes money he has. That's no longer true.
And a sign, PAT, of Richard's deterioration?
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I am working hard to keep the men associated with the shooting gallery and the military straight. It seems like Mr. Captain Hawden came out of the blue.
Yes, Laura, it's hard to figure Hawdon out. In Chapter XXIX we learn that he is Nemo and also that he's Esther's father. But there's a lot we don't know. He seems to have been involved in some kind of scam--Smallweed says "Didn't he take us all in? Didn't he owe us immense sums all round?" We have no idea what that's all about, how he came to link up with the others, why he felt he had to disappear.
Indeed it's hard to keep all the military men straight. Thank goodness for Babi's list of characters. I refer to it a lot.
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In my books, Esther's aunt--cold, upright, unforgiving and unloving--gives moral rectitude a bad name. Morality is incomplete without humanity.
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JoanP and Pat, I am using Babi’s character list. I even made a bookmark out of it. The idea of piecing in the characters as they relate to Esther is a good one, Joan. Now that we know who Captain Hawden is, it is easy to place him. It was not so easy when he first appeared. It looks like there is only one character, listed under assorted individuals, that we haven’t met yet. Not having to place any new characters in the story will be a big help!
The scene with the Ironmaster (Mr. Rouncewell) and Sir Leicester was amusing to me. Rosa is a servant to the Dedlocks, but did/does attend the village school that Sir Leicester sponsors. The Dedlocks do not consider her to be of the same station in life as them. However, Sir Leicester was upset that Mr. Rouncewell wanted to further educate her, so she would be a more even match with his son. I found Sir Leicester’s reaction to be hypocritical. If Sir Leicester had a son who wanted to marry a servant, I don’t think Sir Leicester would be too happy about that. After all, they would not be of the same class/station in life. Yet, Sir Leicester is upset that a servant of his, who attended his school, was not good enough for Mr. Rouncewell’s son. While Mr. Rouncewell may not hold as high a societal position as Sir Leicester, he is certainly above servant class. I have to side with Mr. Rouncewell on this one.
Lady Dedlock was a bit manipulative with Rosa at the end of Chapter 28, cooing over her and leading her to believe that she was not ready to get married yet. In this case, I think the manipulation benefitted both of them. Rosa is a bit young yet to be married and Lady Dedlock wants to spend more time with Rosa, having her as a sort of proxy for her daughter she was not able to raise herself.
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Whee three pages back to read posts and catch up AND read the chapters in Bleak House - first I was tied up with some clients - then went to a Lent Retreat coming home in flash flooding raging rivers for roads - then my son came to visit for a day - and before you know it a week passed - I will catch up later today - looking forward to picking up the conversation -
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Now all we have to do is remember the old characters when we meet them again.
What's really eating Sir Leicester is that the Ironmaster (who is the son of the housekeeper, for goodness sake!) does not consider himself to be of the servant class. And indeed he is not. Rouncewell is rich and successful. He has been invited to go into Parliament. He has bettered himself, and educated himself and now his son, and now going to the village school will not fit a fiancée of that son for her station in life. This should not be. They should be servants on the estate, like their parents before them.
The shaking up of the social system made possible by industrialization is very threatening to him, and outrages his sense of fitness.
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PatH
I agree with you and would like to add this;
Dickens has strongly pointed out that Dedlock supports many relatives..all of them just bumps on the skin of society. The author also points out, very strongly, how the Dedlocks have done nothing for society for hundreds of years.
Along comes Rouncewell, who grew up in this household and has done immensely important things in his life. Dedlock has no children. Rouncewell has four.
How threatening this man is to Dedlock cannot be measured. The writer is clearly making his political statement in this scene.
The disagreement is supposedly about a marriage but really it encapsulates the whole social and political situation in England of that time.
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Fascinating isn't it? What an artist. So many characters. So much happening. I can't make up my mind. Is he a better juggler, or a better puppetmaster, or the best of both. So many balls in the air. Such a busy, crowded stage.
What's really eating Sir Leicester? You ain't seen nothin yet. Wait until he finds out about Lady D's shady past. At least that's what I'm imagining.
Can we be sure that George is not hiding his friend Captain Hawdon? Detectives, as we have seen, peek into his place looking for missing persons.
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what a book, what a book.....books like this were made to have imput from many to
give excitement to reading it I think.....I can imagine everyone reading their copy after the next excerpt was published and the mixed opinions being vented
Deb
Yes. I can just imagine families reading the next installment aloud and having the kind of conversations we're having here. (Ours are more clever and insightful, of course ;) )
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There is .... the Honourable Bob Stables........... He has been for some time particularly desirous to serve his country in a post of good emoluments, unaccompanied by any trouble or responsibility. In a well regulated body politic, this natural desire on the part of a spirited young gentleman so highly connected, would be speedily recognized; but somehow William Buffy found when he came in, that these were not times in which he could manage that little matter, either; and this was the second indication Sir Leicester Dedlock had conveyed to him, that the country was going to pieces.
*the norton note to the above quote
in the early 1850's, reforms of the Civil Service were being recommended ...whereby candidates of government posts were to be appointed on the basis of their performance in competitive examinations rather than by their being 'highly connected.'
the class system comes up again and again....which the above quote suggests, letting one part of the population be supported by the hard work of another group...the rich feeding off the poor
following the published 'Bleak House' in the Norton edition there are over 200 pages of notes etc. some of them reflecting criticisms of the book published in newspapers of his time; as well as notes on societies conditions revolving around i.e. pollution, the fog, cemeteries & burial etc., of which a lot of appears throughout the pages of this book....interesting background reading
Deb
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I'm glad you quoted that, Deb. I thought it was pretty funny. Goodness, the country is really going to the dogs if a highly connected young man has to show actual merit.
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When Volumnia hears that Mr. Rouncewell "was invited to go into Parliament" - she screamed she'd never heard such a thing - and asked, "what is the man?" When Sir Leicester answered that he is an "Ironmaster"...she utters another scream. He's declined the proposal, Mr. Tulkinghorn has informed Sir Leicester.
I don't remember why he has declined, do you?
Deb, you mentioned the notes in the Norton Critical edition. Here's an interesting Chronology 1850-53 - found in the back of the Norton edition with something you may find interesting as I did. I'll type in only the relevant parts. Remember that Bleak House was published in 1852-53:
...
March,1851 - Death of Dickens' father. The Times intiating campagin for Chancery reforms
April, 1851 - Death of Dickens' infant daughter, Dora. Publishes article on police in Household Words
May, 1851 - Speech to Metropolitan Sanitary Association. more on this speech tomorrow
February, 1852- Fall of Lord John Russell's governement, succeeded by the Conservatives under Lord Derby and Benjamin Disraeli. Dickens' fortieth birthday.
March, 1852 - First number of Bleak House published as monthly installment
April, 1852 - Bills in Parliament for reform of Chancery, sanitation and against bribery in elections.
May, 1852 Third number {Chapters VIII-X} published; fourth number written.
June, 1852 Dickens delines to run for Parliament. Visits St. Albans for backgrounds for
Bleak House.
September, 1852 - Bleak House attacked by Lord Denman, former Lord Chancellor, for its allegedly irresponsible social criticism.
January, 1853 - Visits London slums to inspect sites for model housing.
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Morality is incomplete without humanity.
Hear, Hear!!, PatH.
Dickens does release his clues piecemeal, LAURA. Great technique for a series, don't you
think? It keeps the readers agog for the next edition. And of course, every mystery writer
does that, or we would know the villain every time.
I think most of us, not being of the 'upper crust', would side with Mr. Rouncewell. Our
modern hackles rise at the idea that commoners should not seek to better themselves. In
the cant of the times, they should "remain in the position in which God placed them". Bah,
humbug!
Well stated, JUDE. And 100% correct, IMO.
Ah, yes, BOOKAD. And the 'old boy school' is still alive and well today on both sides of
the ocean. In fact, it's probably a core factor in any political institution.
Very interesting timeline, JOANP. I was especially 'illuminated' by the info. about the
Times campaign for Chancery reforms. That was bound to have influenced Dickens choice of a
theme.
And now, CADDY'S GETTING MARRIED! Ah, Dickens does know his readers. Don't you
know every female reading this series is delighted by the thought of a marriage between two
sweet characters? And how well they understand the immense amount of work involved!
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I haven’t done all of the reading for this section yet, but have completed Chapter 30.
Dickens dangles the carrot of the possible reintroduction of Mr. Woodcourt into the story with the appearance of his mother, but then that possible romance with Esther seems to be squelched. Next, Dickens placates his readers (or at least me) with Caddy’s marriage.
Mrs. Woodcourt did not warm my heart towards her with the way she treated Esther. On the outside, she and Esther were both polite, but Mrs. Woodcourt’s mission was clearly to encourage Esther keep away from her son and pursue an older rich man. Mrs. Woodcourt’s behavior irked me. As the mother of two sons, I hope I don’t find myself in such a position as Mrs. Woodcourt someday!
Thank goodness Caddy had Esther to help her get ready for her wedding. Esther said, “Our great point was to make the furnished lodging decent for the wedding-breakfast, and to imbue Mrs. Jellyby beforehand with some faint sense of the occasion. The later was the more difficult thing of the two.” Can you imagine a mother of the bride being as disengaged as Mrs. Jellyby?!?! Good grief. I had to laugh at all the things that came out of the closets in the Jellyby home! Gross! And all that was discussed between Caddy and Mrs. Jellyby as Caddy left her childhood home was how Mrs. Jellyby would get along without Caddy as scribe! Sad. However, I did get the feeling that they parted on good terms and that there was love underlying the talk of work.
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JoanP, that chronology certainly shows how Dickens was involved in the concerns in the book. We aren't told why Rouncewell declined the proposal to go into Parliament, but I had the feeling he was too busy with his own work to want to get sidetracked.
Dedlock seems to be in the Boodle Coodle Doodle party, not the Buffy Cuffy Duffy party. I guess these parties are recognizable if you know the politics of the time.
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There is one more very important factor going on in England during this period:
The Crimean War (Oct. 1853-Feb.1856). This was a war fought against Turkey (The Ottoman Empire) by Britain, France and Russia.
I don't want to go into an analysis of this important event but some highlights we must remember were :
"The Charge of the Light Brigade"
Florence Nightingale and the revolution in Women's position that her work brought about.
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I think Mrs. Jellyby's benign neglect of Caddy on her wedding is much preferable to Mr. Turveydrop. When they announced their engagement, he was cool until he satisfied himself that he could continue to sponge off the couple as he had off his son, then graciously consented. And he's already started in--fussing at his son for being away from the school for a whole week.
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Laura, I agree with you that Caddy and her mother parted on good terms. And Esther’s narrative about all the wedding plans left a warm fuzzy type of feeling. How wise, to limit the actual spending to the 10 pound note “found on the wharf by Mr. Jellybe.” Of course, Mr Jarndyce would have been happy to pay for the whole wardrobe, but it was more important that it be Mr. Jellybe’s gift. I had to laugh at Esther’s description of the blind leading the blind, which so often happens when we least expect it.
Poor Peepy. Kids sense things, and Peepy knew that whatever was happening with his sister-mother-payer-of-attention did not bode well for Peepy. At least not right away, although living with Prince and Caddy would no doubt do wonders for him. But no wonder he had a meltdown.
As for the trio that will be living at the dance studio. The no. one beneficiary will no doubt be the gentleman with the greatest deportment.
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Is Esther feeling the East wind in Chapter 30? Feeling worried and confused? Her encounter with Mrs Woodcourt left her with unaccountable 'perplexities and contradictions.' What a strange tete-a-tete. It left me wondering if Allan Woodcourt left, trying to get away from his mother. I wonder did Mrs W come to Bleak House looking for a husband herself. Esther admits she doesn't know what to make of her.
And I don't know what to make of Esther. In a very confusing chapter only one thing stands out clearly for me. Esther obviously has a lot of admiration for Mrs Jellybe. Just look how closely she observes her. Crowded into a few pages are numerous flattering impressions.
Mrs Jellybe's 'sweetness of temper,' her 'placid smile,' her 'look of serenity,' of 'a superior spirit,' her 'abstract manner,' her 'serenity' again, 'looking over her papers and drinking her coffee,' her 'calm smile and her bright eyes looking unconcerned amidst confusion,' 'presiding at the head of the table,' and farewelling with Caddy in the sweetest way: 'you romantic child, now, good-bye Caddy, and be very happy.'
I could swear Esther sees a role model in her. Despite her failure as a wife and mother. Don't ask her about the blessings of matrimony. She obviously found it a trap. And escaped it. At a cost.
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I wonder what Dickens would have made of Florence Nightingale. The Crimean War came too late for this novel. Are these things written about in later books? Sufficient for the day are the evils thereof. The justice system. Class distinctions. Povery and slums. Marriage problems. Illegitimacy. It wasn't difficult to find a title for the book.
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I couldn't help thinking, LAURA, that when Mrs. Woodcourt suggested Esther should
marry a rich, older man whe was thinking of John Jarndyce. I can see where that
would appear to her to be a natural outcome. And surprisingly enough, Esther does
not appear at all shocked by the idea of marrying a much older man. I believe it
was much more common and acceptable in those days. Now, we tend to assume it's a
case of golddigger and meal ticket.
It would be amusing, tho', PAT, to know which of the parties was 'Boodle, Coodle,
et al, and which was 'Buffy, Cuffy, Duffy'. Would I be reading too much into the
names to suspect the 'Boodle' group of being focused on profit, and the 'Buffy'
group of being the aristocratic airheads?
Yes, indeed, PEDLN. Mr. Turveydrop always makes sure his own convenience and
pleasures are #1 in the household. Everyone else is welcome to the leftovers.
Lord, what a self-centered egoist this man is.
Surely you jest, JONATHAN. Or is that sarcasm? All those descriptions of Mrs.
Jellyby only emphasized for me her detachment from any concerns other than her own.
It's easy to say to Caddy, "..be very happy", so long as she is not troubled by
any necessity to do more than that. I'm persuaded Esther was exasperated by the
lady rather than admiring.
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I think Mrs. Jellyby's benign neglect of Caddy on her wedding is much preferable to Mr. Turveydrop.
When I was thinking of which person’s actions were better or worse, it was only then that I realized that Mrs. Jellyby and Mr. Turveydrop are opposites. Mr. Turveydrop is all about himself and Mrs. Jellyby is all about everyone else.
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Is Esther feeling the East wind in Chapter 30? Feeling worried and confused? Her encounter with Mrs Woodcourt left her with unaccountable 'perplexities and contradictions.' What a strange tete-a-tete. It left me wondering if Allan Woodcourt left, trying to get away from his mother.
Maybe Allan was trying to get away from his meddling mother!
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Following the previous month's installment, Dickens had left his readers with the image of a devastated Lady Dedlock, overcome with the realization that her lost love has died - the father of her child - and that child had not died at birth as she had believed all this time, but that she is alive. And her daughter is someone she knows! Can you imagine those readers waiting a month to learn what will happen next? Would they have been disappointed with this installment?
With all of Mrs. Woodcourt's talk of a proper wife for her Allan - one of royal blood, I'm puzzled that she even considers Esther to be that wife - simply because she is so "busy and neat." What brings her so often to Bleak House? Has John Jarndyce invited her? Does Jarndyce believe that Allan would make a good husband for Esther? You have to wonder if John Jarndyce knows more about Esther's background.
Whatever Esther thought of Allan Woodcourt, clearly she is uncomfortable with Mrs. Woodcourt's conversation... it reminds me of the way Mrs. Jellyby kept inviting Mr. Quale to their home, hoping for a match with Caddie. Maybe that's why she was so unenthusiastic about Caddie choosing the dance instructor. Wasn't it interesting that Mr. Quale was invited to Caddie's wedding?
Mr. Turveydrop is all about himself and Mrs. Jellyby is all about everyone else.
Laura - your observation made wonder which one Dickens himself is criticizing more...
Babi - sometimes I think too about a match between Esther and the handsome and never married Jarndyce...remembering that Dickens himself had a relationship at the time with a very young actress - I think her name was Ellen Ternan. She was the reason Dickens' wife had left their home...
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With all of Mrs. Woodcourt's talk of a proper wife for her Allan - one of royal blood, I'm puzzled that she even considers Esther to be that wife - simply because she is so "busy and neat." What brings her so often to Bleak House? Has John Jarndyce invited her? Does Jarndyce believe that Allan would make a good husband for Esther? You have to wonder if John Jarndyce knows more about Esther's background.
I think Mrs. Woodcourt saw clearly that her son was in love with Esther, and disapproved--not of sufficiently grand origin for someone with the blood of Morgan ap Kerrig coursing through his veins. Hence her talk designed to discourage Esther. She stayed at Bleak House for 3 weeks at Jarndyce's invitation, but she might have fished for it.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
|
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illoldmanT.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illoldmanT.jpg)
The Old Man of the Name of Tulkinghorn
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
XI
XII |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Jan. 1853
Feb. 1853 |
CHAPTERS
33-35
36-38 |
DISCUSSION DATES
April 5--Apr.9
April 10--Apr.14 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmrsmallweed.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmrsmallweed.jpg)
Mr. Smallweed Breaks the Pipe of Peace
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
Chapter XXXIII Interlopers
1. Who would you say are the "Interlopers" referred to in the title of this chapter?
2. What is the peculiar smell, the "foetid effluvia" observed by witnesses in Chancery Lane? Can it be connected to what is known of "spontaneous combustion"?
3. Mr. Snagsby's mental suffering is so great, he entertains the idea of turning himself in - to be cleared if innocent, punished if guilty. Do you believe it will turn out that he is responsible, at least in some small part, for Krook's death?
4. What brings the Smallweeds down to the Sol's Arms? What interest do they have in Krook's Rag and Bottle? How did Mr. Tulkinghorn become connected to this unsavory family?
5. How does Lady Dedlock take the news from Mr. Guppy that the letters have been destroyed? How did you interpret Mr. Tulkinghorn's reaction when he encountered Mr. Guppy in the Dedlocks' library?
Chapter XXXIV Turn of the Screw
1. Were you expecting some sort of repercussions following Mr. George's refusal to comply with Tulkinghorn's request to hand over samples of Mr. George's former captain's handwriting? Why was the letter from Smallweed particularly upsetting to Mr. George?
2. Were you at all surprised at Mrs. Bagnet's tone with her husband's old comrade? What more do we learn about Mr. George in this installment?
3. What might Mrs. Rouncewell be doing in Mr. Tulkinghorn's office? What was Mr. George's reaction when he saw her there?
4. Wasn't this "turn of the screw" particularly cruel and devillish of Tulkinghorn?
5. Does Mr. Bagnet know what his old friend was forced to do, in order to save the Bagnet family from ruin?
Chapter XXXV Esther's Narrative
1. After several weeks in the sickbed, have you noticed a change in Esther's sense of responsibility and view of her position in the family?
2. How does Dickens break the news to his readers that Esther's face has changed? How do you imagine her appearance now?
3. Is it difficult to believe that Rick Carstone has changed in his regard for John Jarndyce? What might have changed him? Isn't he still in the army in Ireland?
4. Is it a stretch to believe that Miss Flite has walked 20 miles in her dancing slippers to tell Esther that a veiled lady has been enquiring after her - and that this same lady is said to be the Lord Chancellor's wife? Does this mean what it seems to mean?
5. Do you believe Miss Flite when she says that the Judgment of her suit will come shortly and all of her birds will then be released? Do you have any idea why she addresses Esther as Miss Fitz-Jarndyce? |
Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I'm completely serious, BABI, about Esther seeing the saving graces along with the shortcomings in Mrs Jellyby. Those are qualities she admires and would like to find in herself. And does find in herself. Just as she finds Mrs Woodcourt 'a sharp little lady,' so is she. She doesn't know what to make of Mrs W's confidences. Are they harmless? Are they designing? Esther's narrative includes so much soul-searching that the reader cannot tell when to trust her.
All along she has had someone confiding in her, from school-mates to guardians. From Richard and Ada to Caddy and Peepy. Everyone comes to her with their secrets and problems. So why not Mrs Woodcourt? She did fish for an invitation to Bleak House. Her son and his future would be uppermost in her mind. Are we certain that she sees Esther as a threat to her plans? After all. Allen won't be back for three years. How does she know that Allen is interested in Esther. She wouldn't have got it from him. He tells his mother nothing about girls in his life. Is, in fact, indifferent to girls, which must have been good news for Esther. It's a very clever conversation that Esther reports, but it's more about her feelings than objective fact about Mrs Woodcourts intentions. But, perhaps I'm being naive.
With Dickens' style the reader can make a case for anything. Honestly and even solemnly.
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I believe it was about this time that Dickens' own marriage was breaking down. Was he, like Mr Jellybe, shedding tears over it? Some of these scenes may have been written through tears. Was he disappointed that Mr Jellybe couldn't articulate his sorrows?
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Jonathan
Uhumm....How nice of you to say that Dicken's marriage was breaking down. He fell in love with an 18, yes eighteen, year old actress and broke up his house hold in 1858. He was 45. I don't know all the details but I did read only one child, Kate, stood by her Mother while the others sided with their Father .Could it be the money?
Anyhow , the actress, Nell Ternan, and Dickens spent some time in France and rumor had it that she even had a child by him. However the child passed away in infancy.
Dickens was dramatic even in private affairs. First he had a partition built down the center of the bedroo he shared with his wife of 20 years.. Then he denounced his wife to the newspapers. He spent the last twelve years of his life in Gad Hills Place in North Kent. Still anxious to preserve his image as a pillar of Victorian morality, Dickens purchased a house for Nell near London where he visited her "secretly".
Enough Gossip ! How complex a man our Dickens was !
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You're right, LAURA, but I can't help thinking that even Mrs. Jellyby's total
involvement with her 'mission' is a way for her to ignore and escape her marital
and maternal responsibilities. I think she was very unhappy with her life and found
a way to change it.
JOAN, I didn't realize that affair with the younger woman had taken place about
this time. That does put another light on the whole thing. I wonder if Dickens was
'testing the waters' on this subject, consciously or unconsciously. It's another
example of an alliance that a family might greatly approve, but the young lady in
question would not be at all happy about. (This particular 'young lady', I realize,
was not some sheltered miss.)
That was my own thought, PatH, that Mrs. Woodcourt was worried because she knew of
her son's attachment to Esther and hoped to persuade Esther that it would not be
suitable. I thought describing her son as fickle and careless was an especially
unkind gambit.
JONATHAN, you are a kind soul, to see the saving graces in Mrs. Jellyby. As a
mother myself, I perhaps take a harsher view than I should of a woman who neglects
her children as she did. One thing I can well understand, would be the 'withdrawal'
from a situtation with which she was most unhappy.
But now Charley and Esther meet again with some old acquaintances, and the story takes
a sad turn from a happy wedding.
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"With Dickens' style the reader can make a case for anything."
That's the truth, Jonathan! I am so happy that we are reading this together and comparing notes! I have to confess that I totally misread the purpose of Mrs. Woodcourt's visit to Bleak House...thought she was there to pursuade Esther to marry her son so he wouldn't marry someone in India or China.
Now I can see why Esther would be uncomfortable during these chats - if she does in fact "like" Allan - and gets the feeling that Mrs. Woodcourt does not approve of her as a suitable wife for her son.
No, Babi, you're right - the object of Dickens' affection was not a "sheltered miss" - but carrying on with this popular public figure, father of 10!
My heart went out to both of the Jellybe parents in their reduced circumstances - Mr. Jellyby aware of the condition of his home and his children... and Mrs. Jellyby, unable to envision a wedding breakfast in her mean and filthy front room. It was all beyond her, her mission is her only escape.
Esther concluded that it was her guardian who made the whole experience "genial." But John Jarndyce concluded that it was Dame Durden who brought sunshine and summer air to the procedings. I'm looking forward to whatever Dickens had in store for these two.
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Does anyone know the difference between cholera and typhoid fever? Is there a difference? What is sweeping through London at this time? How is it transmitted? How contagious is it? Lots of questions going into the next sad chapter, Babi!
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What Jo has, and transmits to Charlie, is surely smallpox. Esther's remark "I was very sorrowful to think that Charlie's pretty looks would change and be disfigured, even if she recovered--" refers to the scarring that occurs. I didn't know that blindness was a possible complication, but it turns out it is.
The mortality rate is 30%, so they are lucky.
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I was a little surprised that they wouldn't have been vaccinated, but couldn't find out for sure how common vaccination would have been then. Here is a rather lengthy history of vaccination that implies it was already common in England by 1800.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/)
Here is a one-page description of onset, symptoms, contagiousness, etc.
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/overview/disease-facts.asp (http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/overview/disease-facts.asp)
Dickens was pushing things a bit to have Charlie infected from Jo so early in his illness, and to become sick so quickly, but after all, he wasn't an epidemiologist.
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As I read through the end of Chapter 31, I assumed that Esther’s blindness was temporary. I think I thought this because of the footnote in m B&N edition:
“Blindness could be one effect of smallpox when lesions spread to the eyes.”
I assumed that once the lesion cleared, sight would be restored.
I was just reviewing the passages I marked in the chapter and read the questions in the heading. Having done so, I now fear that Esther’s blindness will be permanent.
I had marked this foreboding passage:
“I had no thought, that night --- none, I am quite sure --- of what was soon to happen to me. But I have always remembered since, that when we had stopped at the garden-gate to look up at the sky, and when we went upon our way, I had for a moment an indefinable impression of myself as being something different from what I then was.”
I coupled this quote with the discussion question, “Why do you think Dickens chose this outcome of Esther’s illness,” and now I think she may be permanently blinded! Oh no!
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Goodness, Laura, I hope not; that's a harsh fate for a heroine. Let's hope it's the temporary form. At least, unlike Dickens' readers, we won't have to wait a month to find out.
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what a sad chapter 31 is; after I was finished wanting to slap Mr. Skimpole, who really is devoid of any feelings for others it seems....why didn't he give everyone a heads up regarding the possible contagious nature of Jo's illness, he being a past medical man with knowledge of this sort!!!...after this episode of his behaviour I can't say I find his antics cute anymore
why did Jo have to be put out in the barn by himself when he was so ill, rather than nursed within the house, sounds rather cruel to do this to such a young person; especially 2 pages later Charley's succumbs to the disease and is looked after so compassionately by Esther
this chapter was the first one I read that I didn't have to struggle with, there were so many emotional moments every time I turned a page
Pat-that was quite interesting reading about Jenner's history in medicine, and his part in bringing forward the use of vaccines that we take for granted today
Joan-from reply 632-so interesting to find how Dicken's history compares with the book--there are some notes also in the book that he wrote while publishing a small newspaper ..about his views on many matters of his day
fascinating how one book can lead a reader in so many directions
Deb
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I found it surprising that Caddy's unfortunate papa had settled his bankruptcy, JOAN.
“gone through the Gazette,” was the expression Caddy used, as if it were a tunnel, —
with the general clemency and commiseration of his creditors; and had got rid of his
affairs in some blessed manner, without succeeding in understanding them; and had
given up everything he possessed (which was not worth much I should think, to judge
from the state of the furniture), and had satisfied every one concerned that he
could do no more, poor man." Surprising, because after all we've learned about
Chancery, I wasn't expecting a more realistic and reasonable outcome in the area of
bankruptcy.
I agree, PAT. Smallpox is the only thing I found that leaves the scarring. By good
fortune, I found this item: And, it was in the 19th century that England placed a ban on
inoculation and then made vaccination compulsory. In fact, the British government passed
a law by the Act of Parliament in 1853 making smallpox vaccination mandatory to curb the
spread of the disease. Is it a coincidence, do you suppose, that this chapter was published in Dec. 1852, and the law was passed in 1853?
Esther did want to tend to Jo inside the house, BOOKAD, but the danger to the other
members of the household was apparently the overriding factor in Mr. Jarndyce's concern.
Charley, on the other hand, was more than just a maid to all of them. Esther would not
have tolerated her banishment to the barn. I suspect she would have insisted on moving
out there with her, to care for her.
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Jarndyce shows a nice sense of balancing his obligations here. It is his duty as a human being to see that Jo is taken care of. He also has a duty to his servants to shield them from harm. Jo will be well cared for--the loft-room is comfortable, and he is looked after, but the servants and family are not endangered. Charlie, as part of the household, gets cared for by the household. And because Esther is so fond of her, she insists on caring for her.
Skimpole, however, is contemptible. Turn the boy out, he'll do something or other, no concern of ours. He doesn't even try to be useful medically, saying Esther would be better at it.
Esther says that Jarndyce "...never seemed to consider Mr. Skimpole an accountable human being" but I think he's perfectly accountable. He knows exactly what he is doing, and his highly refined line of being a child is carefully thought out and a lot of hooey. He's a parasite himself, but heaven forfend that someone else should be helped. Grrr.
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What has happened to Jo? His fever probably broke in the night, leaving him more rational and aware, but he was still a pretty sick puppy, and yet he has managed to disappear so well that 5 days search can't find him.
Babi, thanks for settling the question of prevalence of vaccination.
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From chronology posted the other day -
May, 1851 - Speech to Metropolitan Sanitary Association. This was the speech that Dickens gave the year before he wrote Bleak House. There is a copy of the Norton Critical. It says that Dickens was earnest in the Sanitary cause...He was convinced "that Sanitary reform must precede all other social remedies - even Education and religion cannot help until Cleanliness and Decency are achieved.
The Board of Health was established in 1848. It recommended reforms for pure water supply, but was unable to implement proposals because of opposition from a few noisy landlords interested in the maintenance of abuses and because of indifference on the part of the government."
We'll have to wait to til another day to hear about Jo. I can't believe that he was recovered sufficiently to move on, but we'll just have to be patient. The same thing with Esther's blindness. I believe she'll remain blind, but your posts give me hope. So, blindness is a effect of small box. I can see, from all the evidence that you have cited, including that footnote, that this is not cholera or typhoid fever, as I has suspected earlier.
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There's a very strong suggestion that Skimpole helped Jo to move on.
Skimpole, with his medical training, saw at a glance that Jo was a great health risk to everyone near him, and wanted him isolated at once, thrown back onto the street and forced to look out for himself.
'He's not safe, you know. There's a very bad sort of fever about him.'
Mr Jarndyce is listening, takes the advice, but goes only so far as finding a place for Jo in the stable. To prevent his wandering off during the night, the door is fastended on the outside. Much speculation follows about how he managed to get out. It's implied he needed help, with a strong hint that it must have been Skimpole!
Skimpole does try to put himself into Jo's position, when he ponders what he might do if he were. Even suggesting the commision of a crime, being incarcerated, and then getting the health benefits resulting from that. One does have to wonder about Skimpole's survival skills. Amazing man as well as contemptible.
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Yes, all sympathy for the man is dead at this point! It almost dies in Jarndyce, too, but then he decides that S is "not accountable". Double Grrrr.
I hadn't thought of Skimpole being the one who moves Jo on. If he was, tripple Grrrrr.
And half a grrr to Dickens for leaving Esther to her fate at this point, and making us wait while he deals withother characters.
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I hadn't thought of Skimpole moving Jo on either. It makes sense. That's how Jo got out but everything was still locked. And Skimpole gives a hint when he plays a song "apropos of our young friend", and is very gay the rest of the evening:
"Thrown on the wide world, doom'd to wander and roam,
Bereft of his parents, bereft of a home."
I still wonder where Jo went.
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Of the last three exciting and worrisome chapters I wrote dowm only one sentence that I found profound. That is by Mr. Jellyby to Caddy.
"Unless you strive with all your heart to make a home for your husband you had better murder him than marry him if you really love him"
This sentence from a man who never says more than three words at a time.
What sorrow in those words. What deep suffering. Caddy gets her character from her Father and , like him, feels deeply.
Unlike him I think she will have a happier life. At least I hope so.
I also didn't think of Skimpole spiriting away Jo.. but it makes sense.
Skimpole is so awful he could have thrown Jo in a ditch somewhere.. but he woulldn't endanger himself by touching Jo or getting too close to him.
Jo could even be one of his children for all we know.Skimpole is one of the awful characters that Dickens is so wonderful in
inventing. I still wonder why Jarndyce keeps him around.
. My Kindle says we have only completed 50% of the book.
Much still awaits us.
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"Unless you strive with all your heart to make a home for your husband you had better murder him than marry him if you really love him."
Jude, that IS really quite an observation, when you think about it. I think too about Dickens' home life...his wife said not to be much of a housekeeper, (much like Mrs. Jellyby?) - leaving the running of the household of ten children - to her younger sister. There's a lot going on here beyond the surface of this story.
- Skimpole is so maddening - I really hope Dickens lets us know just why John Jarndyce puts up with him before the novel is finished. There just has to be more to the story than the stated reason - that he has not developed beyond childhood, psychologically and that Jarndyce is sympathetic to his shortcomings.
So much talk about the relationship between parents and children, so many orphans - questions about their parents, possible reunions with parents, I can't help but think that we will not only find out what has happened to Jo - but also who HIS parents are...
Smallpox is transmitted through contact then? We are fairly certain that Esther has contracted smallpox from caring for Charley...and that Charley got it from caring for Jo. That seems to indicate that Jenny and/or Liz will also suffer from it - as they were caring for Jo before Charley came into contact with him, doesn't it?
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I think you must be right, JONATHAN. I had forgotten he door was fastened from the
outside, and Skimpole is the only one who would have meddled with the arrangements for
Jo. Poor child.
We must face it, JOANK. "Making us wait" is key to a successful series. Why else were
those long lines waiting for the next issue?
JOANP, I have to believe that sooner or later Jarndyce will finally recognize Skimpole
for what he is. That grinning leech must get his come-uppance. It's possible that Jenny
or Liz might be infected, also. I do hope not; I doubt if either of them would get the
care they needed.
The contagion must have been fairly widespread. Remember those foreboding lines we read
just before Esther and Charley went into the brickmaker's cottage? Towards London, a lurid glare overhung the whole dark waste; and the contrast between these two lights, and the fancy which the redder light engendered of an unearthly fire, gleaming on all the unseen buildings of the city, and on all the faces of its many thousands of wondering inhabitants, was as solemn as might be.
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JoanP, not only Jenny and Liz, but the baby too could be in danger. It may be that Jenny and Liz have already had it. The CDC site says that generally, direct and fairly prolonged face-to-face contact is required to spread it, and it can also be spread through direct contact with infected bodily fluids or contaminated objects like bedding.
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Is it a coincidence, do you suppose, that this chapter was published in Dec. 1852, and the law (mandatory vaccination) was passed in 1853?
Babi, I don’t think it was coincidence. The more we learn about Dickens and the era in which he lived, the more I think his works helped bring about change. Muckraking fiction? It makes me wonder about other examples – like Harriet Beecher Stowe and Upton Sinclair.
I appreciate the timelines given here as I really hadn’t thought about when Jenner practiced and when people were first vaccinated for smallpox.
it can also be spread through direct contact with infected bodily fluids or contaminated objects like bedding.
Can’t you imagine what the bedding was like at the Tom-all-alone. I’m not surprised Jo wasn’t vaccinated, even Charley. And why would Esther’s godmother have had her vaccinated when she thought she should never have been born. And if it wasn't mandatory in 1852, no doubt there were many who fell through the cracks.
Statistics for smallpox deaths in London in 1844 – over 10,000 total
Smallpox London 1844 (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/london_smallpox.htm)
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'I still wonder where Jo went.'
Dickens thinks of everything, Pat. I seem to remember reading that Jo talks about finding a place to sleep on a bed of warm bricks down by the kilns. I wondered about Jo turning up in the Bleak House area, some distance from London. A London street child is not likely to leave his familiar neighborhood. But he does tell us that he followed Liz and Jenny when they returned home. The answer to every question can be found somehwere in the book, it seems.
Is Mr Jarndyce looking for a homemaker? The marriage scene in BH is certainly not a happy one. Dickens takes every opportunity to comment on it. Is it a marital problem that turned Skimpole into the man he is?
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The Appointed Time, Chapter 32. What an amazing chapter! What a tour de force of descriptive writing to present a case of spontaneous combustion for the reader's consideration. It's true. It actually happens, Dickens tells us in his preface.
'I do not wilfully or negligently mislead my readers...there are about thirty cases on record'
Mr first question - why Mr Krook? What did he ever do, to deserve such a strange fate? And did he feel it coming on? He closed up shop early. Kept the evening to himself. Agreeing to meet Mr Weevle at midnight with the packet of letters.
He's made to walk the valley...'the perplexed and troublous valley of the shadow of the law'...what a strange twist to the verse in Psalm 23: 'the valley of the shadow of death.' To die the strangest death, 'of all the deaths that can be died.'
And the dozen pages for the reader between those two quotes surpass in strangeness everything I have ever read. We'll have to think about this.
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Jonathan, I've a footnote attached to this title - "The Appointed Time" 1
1 See Job 7:1: "Is there not an apponted time to man upon earth?"
But that's a good question, why is it Krook's time? What did he do to deserve death? Someone really wanted to get their hands on those letters - but who knew that this was the appointed time he planned to turn them over to Mr. Guppy and Mr. Weevle? Lady Dedlock knew that Guppy had some incriminating letters, but who would she have told? Did Krook tell anyone about the letters? Did he let anyone read them? But who?
I guess we'll have to wait for the next installment - just like everyone else.
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Strange, grim, and bizarre. Dickens certainly deftly builds up to his climax, with increasingly forceful sights, smells, and uncomfortable feelings.
Is spontaneous human combustion possible? The idea was controversial in Dickens' time, and is even more controversial now. There seem to be occasional cases that fit, but usually another explanation is possible--the fire starting from outside, and various conditions leading to almost complete destruction of the body without the fire spreading. I don't want to go into the gruesome details, but if you Google spontaneous human combustion you'll get several articles. My theory is that Krook drank so much gin that his body was flammable, but that isn't really possible; he would die from the overdose long before that.
It makes for a good story, though, and other authors have used the device too.
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What happened to the letters in a feminine hand, presumably from Lady Dedlock to Hawdon? They're probably "the tinder from a little pile of burnt paper".
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I love the imaginative literary curlicues in Dickens' descriptions. Here's one from the beginning of the chapter: "...where some wise draughtsman and conveyancer yet toils for the entanglement of real estate in meshes of sheepskin, in the average ratio of about a dozen sheep to an acre of land."
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PatH, I'm waiting for the appearance of Mr. Bucket on the scene. Actually, I thought he'd be here by now. I'm sure he'll let us know more on the details of spontaneous combustion. Is there enough to consider Krook's death a murder at this point? We don't even have a body for an autopsy to determine "cause of death." Dickens defends the idea of spontaneous combustion in the Preface. But you have to wonder how how familiar his readers are with this phenomenon. At the end of this installment, he tells us -
"O Horror, he IS here! and this from which we run away, striking out the light and overturmomg one another into the street, is all that represents him."
And then - "Spontaneous Combustion, and none other of all the deaths that can be died."
Dickens leaves no doubt as to how Krook died. But is it murder? This is so like Nemo's death - in the same house. Both suspicious. But can murder be proved. We need Mr. Bucket on the scene.
Love those "imaginative literary curlicues" too, PatH. Thanks for noting them.
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The time for starting the next installment has snuck up on me! Yikes!
I wonder if Mr. Skimpole did do something with Jo…thank you for that food for thought, Jonathan.
I know I read about spontaneous combustion in another Victorian novel. I think it was Woman in White. Anyway, I still find the whole concept to be bizarre. Being the doubting Thomas that I am, I am suspicious that the yellow liquor is not a result of spontaneous combustion, as I think we are led to believe. However, I can’t give any other alternative. I guess I am suspicious because so many instances in this novel we find out that “things are not as they first seem.”
I had assumed that the chapter title of “The Appointed Time” referred to the time that the letters were supposed to be handed off. I hadn’t thought of it as someone’s time to die. The double meaning of the title adds another nuance to the chapter.
Based on the reading, we are to assume that the letters burned up too. We’ll see…
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JONATHAN, do you remember the local constables repeatedly telling Jo to 'move on'. It
seems he finally 'moved on' out of London entirely. He had planned to go to his warm
spot when Esther and Charley found him. I would have expected him to go there when he left.
As for Skimpole, I don't believe a bad marriage can explain his character. It goes too
deep for that. Any marriage that he undertook would be a bad one for his poor wife and
children.
"The Appointed Time" is strange. I fear I cannot believe in spontaneous combustion
in a human being. "Thirty cases on record" does not move me. There are hundreds, if not
thousands of reports of weird beings with absolutely no real, believable evidence.
It is my personal opinion that Mr. Krook, unwashed, greasy, and sodden drunk, either
dropped dead into the fire, or caught fire and was too drunk to save himself.
I do like your comment on the 'valley of the shadow of the law', Jonathan. Well noted!
LAURA, I, too, thought the 'appointed time' was the appointment to hand over the letters.
I note, tho', that apparently they were being handed over only so that Mr. Weevle could
read them and tell Krook what they said. Krook expected them back, but it appears Guppy
had other ideas about that.
After reading JOANP's post, I think she is right. Dickens had more than one 'appointment'
in mind. So sly, so subtle.
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"Unlike him(Caddy'd father) I think she will have a happier life. At least I hope so." And maybe make a happier life for her father.
The combustion is such a strange plot device. I guess it didn't seem as strange in Dickens' day, when there were many more strange beliefs. But it seems to me to be very "not Dickens". He may stretch coincidence to the breaking point, but he's usually very this-worldly, if you know what I mean. Now if Poe had written it.....
The number of orphans is, I suspect, very realistic for his time. He really was concerned with the social problems that were around him, and that was certainly one of them. The problems of the "deserving poor", those who were poor through no fault of their own, is a focus in all of his books: children first, then women, then men who had been impoverished through the actions of others.
But he also doesn't believe in social solutions to the problems. The awful "philanthropy" in Bleak House, the dreadful orphanage in Oliver Twist. I'm surprised he even supported manditory vaccination, if he did. That leaves him with nowhere to go, except a few Mr. Jarndice's helping one or two individuals.
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I hope to return to the discussion on Monday or Tuesday.
Twenty people for Passover and houseguests all week long.
Hope I make it through this next week.
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Have a wonderful week, JUDE, ...and make sure those guests help you with the chores. After
all, this is family, right? We won't be doing much for Easter, sadly. I don't think I'm up to dyeing
eggs. I'll have my Sunday sermon from my favorite TV preacher, and hopefully see a lovely
Easter parade. Hmm....probably some Easter candy, too. Heaven knows I could now afford to
actually gain some weight.
We learn now what has happened to poor Jo. Such sad words from such a small boy.
He is content to have a resting place among warm kiln bricks. Charley, alarmed, says, "But don’t you know that people die there?”
“They dies everywheres,” said the boy. “They dies in their lodgings — she knows where; I
showed her — and they dies down in Tom-all-Alone’s in heaps. They dies more than they lives,
according to what I see.”
Can you imagine living in a place where people die 'in heaps'? Alone, with no helper or protector?
"Bleak" is such a very apt word.
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I wonder if Jo is afraid of death? He doesn't seem to be; he seems to take everything without questioning.
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A happy Easter - and Passover to all! JudeS, I hope you make it through a week with 20 houseguests. You're running a bed and breakfast over there! We'll look for you on Monday or Tuesday. If not, we'll send out a search party!
I thought I was having it rough for the past 10 days. We were in CA to celebrate husband's brother's 80th birthday - returned home on Monday at 3am. When we reached home, son#3 and his four little ones (10 and under) were here to visit over their Spring Break. At least they were asleep when we came in, but were awake and ready to start the fun at 6 am DST - which meant we had three hours sleep!
Have been running ever since - ice skating, zoo, mall monuments, museums - until an hour ago when they pulled of the driveway.. Oh, I forgot to mention that the other three grandchildren who live here in Arlington were with us most of that time too - ages 4-9.
Bruce has declared "quiet time for the rest of the afternoon..."
Easter dinner and an egg hunt with the local grandchildren. As long as we don't serve lamb...
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Interesting posts - reading them all together in one sitting, I'm seeing the story a bit differently than when I read it "on my own"...
"I guess I am suspicious because so many instances in this novel we find out that “things are not as they first seem.”
Laura, I'm going to keep this in mind, no matter how much fairy dust Dickens tosses our way. Some things that he writes are clearly fact, though they may stretch credibility they are so coincidental. Skimpole Smallweed arrives with his wife - and the news that she is Krook's sister! Imagine that! Their attorney, Tulkinghorn (!) is checking this to be sure. They claim that Krook's Rag and Bottle is theirs - and padlock the door. That much is fact.
"I fear I cannot believe in spontaneous combustion in a human being. "Thirty cases on record" does not move me." Babi
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"The combustion is such a strange plot device. I guess it didn't seem as strange in Dickens' day, when there were many more strange beliefs. But it seems to me to be very "not Dickens". JoanK
I'm going to agree with you, Babi - and suspend belief that Krook died of Spontaneous Combustion. And JoanK you're right - "this is not very Dickens." I went back and reread Dickens' Preface as you did, Babi, to find out exactly what he said about those 30 known cases of Spontaneous Combustion. Will quote a bit of it here -
"The possibility of what is called Spontaneous Combustion has been denied since the death of Mr. Krook.
I have no need to observe that I do not willfully or negligently mislead my readers, and that before I wrote that description I took pains to investigate the subject. There are about 30 cases on record - 'minutely investigated and described by....' The appearances beyond all rational doubt observed in that case, are the appearances described in Mr. Krook's case..."
In Bleak House, I have purposely dwelt upon the romantic side of familiar things."
So what is Dickens saying here? See if you agree. He's defending his description of what spontaneously combusted remains of Krook look like, based on testimony given in court at the time - of thirty cases. He's NOT saying this is what happened to Krook - he's saying that the condition of his remains resembles what happens in spontaneous combustion. Just like Nemo's death seemed to be from an overdose. Was Nemo's death suicide, or did someone make it look like that? Did Krook die from spontaneous combustion - or did someone make it look like that?
I think Dickens leaves the question open at this point.
"It is my personal opinion that Mr. Krook, unwashed, greasy, and sodden drunk, either dropped dead into the fire, or caught fire and was too drunk to save himself."
Babi - I'm not ready to accept the fact that his death was accidental and somehow timed to occur at midnight. I believe there is a murderer - and that if he isn't stopped, there will be more such strange deaths. Where's Bucket when we need him?
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Two questions...do you believe that Jo is dead? It doesn't seem possible that he could have survived. Babi, I think he planned to return to the brickmakers and die on the spot where by the kiln where he knew from past experience that it was warm. But how did he get out of that locked barn? This has never been answered. In my mind, someone had the key and took him somewhere. Who had access to the key? Skimpole is a distinct possibility. But why? Does Jo know too much - about Lady Dedlock?
Jo doesn't seem to be afraid of death - he doesn't seem to fear anything, does he? Except maybe the sermons of the Rev. Chadband, Pat. :D
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illoldmanT.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illoldmanT.jpg)
The Old Man of the Name of Tulkinghorn
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INSTALMENT
XI
XII |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Jan. 1853
Feb. 1853 |
CHAPTERS
33-35
36-38 |
DISCUSSION DATES
April 5--Apr.9
April 10--Apr.14 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmrsmallweed.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmrsmallweed.jpg)
Mr. Smallweed Breaks the Pipe of Peace
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Some Topics to Consider
Chapter XXXIII Interlopers
1. Who would you say are the "Interlopers" referred to in the title of this chapter?
2. What is the peculiar smell, the "foetid effluvia" observed by witnesses in Chancery Lane? Can it be connected to what is known of "spontaneous combustion"?
3. Mr. Snagsby's mental suffering is so great, he entertains the idea of turning himself in - to be cleared if innocent, punished if guilty. Do you believe it will turn out that he is responsible, at least in some small part, for Krook's death?
4. What brings the Smallweeds down to the Sol's Arms? What interest do they have in Krook's Rag and Bottle? How did Mr. Tulkinghorn become connected to this unsavory family?
5. How does Lady Dedlock take the news from Mr. Guppy that the letters have been destroyed? How did you interpret Mr. Tulkinghorn's reaction when he encountered Mr. Guppy in the Dedlocks' library?
Chapter XXXIV Turn of the Screw
1. Were you expecting some sort of repercussions following Mr. George's refusal to comply with Tulkinghorn's request to hand over samples of Mr. George's former captain's handwriting? Why was the letter from Smallweed particularly upsetting to Mr. George?
2. Were you at all surprised at Mrs. Bagnet's tone with her husband's old comrade? What more do we learn about Mr. George in this installment?
3. What might Mrs. Rouncewell be doing in Mr. Tulkinghorn's office? What was Mr. George's reaction when he saw her there?
4. Wasn't this "turn of the screw" particularly cruel and devillish of Tulkinghorn?
5. Does Mr. Bagnet know what his old friend was forced to do, in order to save the Bagnet family from ruin?
Chapter XXXV Esther's Narrative
1. After several weeks in the sickbed, have you noticed a change in Esther's sense of responsibility and view of her position in the family?
2. How does Dickens break the news to his readers that Esther's face has changed? How do you imagine her appearance now?
3. Is it difficult to believe that Rick Carstone has changed in his regard for John Jarndyce? What might have changed him? Isn't he still in the army in Ireland?
4. Is it a stretch to believe that Miss Flite has walked 20 miles in her dancing slippers to tell Esther that a veiled lady has been enquiring after her - and that this same lady is said to be the Lord Chancellor's wife? Does this mean what it seems to mean?
5. Do you believe Miss Flite when she says that the Judgment of her suit will come shortly and all of her birds will then be released? Do you have any idea why she addresses Esther as Miss Fitz-Jarndyce? |
Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Dickens says: "I do not willfully or negligently mislead my readers."
That makes me almost sure that it will turn out it was NOT spontaneous combustion.
Detective Bucket will have a lot to unravel whenever he does show up!
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Based on what you all have written here, I am even more sure that Krook did not die by spontaneous combustion.
“Krook was Grandmother Smallweed’s brother. Grandfather Smallweed has come to deal with Krook’s property. His lawyer is Mr. Tulkinghorn.” (Quoted from Spark Notes)
Mr. Tulkinghorn is Lady Dedlock’s lawyer too. She was seen leaving his office after a long meeting. I remember Joan P. posting about how Mr. Tulkinghorn seems to be in the middle of everything (about the time we were talking about Allegory). If there was any doubt that was true then, I think there is no doubt now!
This book is a tangled web! Now Krook was Mrs. Smallweed’s brother! Wow! Now to add that link in my mind and figure out all the implications…
Oh, and I don't think Jo is dead.
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Dickens says: "I do not willfully or negligently mislead my readers."
That makes me almost sure that it will turn out it was NOT spontaneous combustion.
Detective Bucket will have a lot to unravel whenever he does show up!
I came to the opposite conclusion--that Dickens believed spontaneous combustion to be possible, therefore he felt free to use it.
Bucket certainly will have a lot of work ahead of him.
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Isn't this amazing - we are all sitting in our own little corner of the world reading the same book, the same words - and seeing things from such a different prospective? I have complete confidence that Dickens will clarify everything before we are done - because that's how he usually ends his tales. Oh, except for Mystery of Edwin Drood - that maddening uncompleted last novel. Dickens died half way through. I'm looking forward to see how the PBS adaptation finishes the story. There were huge unanswered questions - with Dickens seemingly leading the reader in one direction, but you just knew what he was doing, just didn't know how he was going to do it. Maddening! I think PBS is airing it next week...
What happened to the letters in a feminine hand, presumably from Lady Dedlock to Hawdon?
PatH's question from a few days ago not yet answered. I hope Lady Dedlock's letters weren't burned up...they would be interesting to read. I'm going to assume that it was made to look this way by whomever doesn't want them around. That would mean someone is trying to protect Lady Dedlock, wouldn't it? Handwriting plays a major role here. There's another sample of Hawdon's handwriting that Tulkinghorn wants to get his hands on too. Mr. George has decided not to hand them over. We haven't heard the last of that...he's not going to get away with this refusal. Tulkinghorn has his way of turning the screw when he wants something.
I feel particularly sorry for poor Mr. Snagsby - he feels implicated somehow - but doesn't know if what he has done has caused Krook's demise. I'll bet he's passed on information about those letters in Krook's possession. DId I miss something? Do you know what is bothering him?
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I agree, JOANP. The coincidences and unexpected relationships do seem a bit too much. I think
you meant Smallweed, tho', not Skimpole. I don't blame the lawyer for checking that claim
carefully. Smallweed would not hesitate to stake a false claim on Krook's shop if he thought he
could get away with it.
I don't for a minute think that Dickens would 'willfully or negligently mislead' his readers.
I did think he personally believed spontaneous combustion, but after reading more carefully
what you posted of his actual words, I do agree with your conclusion. Good thinking!
A point is made of some partially burned papers. Are these the letters Guppy wanted to see,
...or not? Are the letters still out there, somewhere?
As a sidebar, I am amazed to read of the sort of artistry supposedly used by the newspapers of the time. A sketch that depicts an apartment as ‘three-quarters of a mile long, by fifty yards high’?? I found this link interesting. (Enlarge the illustrations.) The detail is marvelous, but there is no way of knowing the size of the original rooms.
http://www.oldimprints.com/OldImprints/19th_century_newspaper_illustrations.cfm
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Thanks, Babi - I did mean to say that it was Smallweed who arrived on the scene with his wife...poor wife. He didn't have anything to throw at her, so he threw his granddaughter at at her! I wonder how these two will be portrayed in the film adaptation. So it turns out that Mrs. Skimpole is Krook's sister! :o Will wonders never cease! Why on earth are they interested in the Krook and Rags establishment? Is because of the contents of the house...the papers? The room in which two people have been murdered? Miss Flite?
And Babi, did you notice that Skipole's lawyer is none other than Mr. Tulkinghorn? I thought that he only represented the big houses, not the likes of Skimpole, and yet here he is, checking on the relationship of Krook's only heirs.
Would you say the Skimpoles are the "interlopers" named in the title of this chapter? If not, do you see anyone else? Weevle and Guppy? The Snagsbys?
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'This book is a tangled web! Now Krook was Mrs. Smallweed’s brother! Wow! Now to add that link in my mind and figure out all the implications…'
I'm sure we all feel that way, Laura. When I read about that family relationship I thought immediately of the sulphurous smell surrounding the death of Mr Krook. The grease. The yellow/green substance. And what is Mr Smallweed's favorite name for his wife? Brimstone. A family trait. Doesn't she sound like a demented witch?
Pity the poor rag and bottle man. For years he has been trying to teach himself to read. He suspects that there might be profit in some of the old papers cluttering his place. Especially a bundle of letters which he has taken from a dead man's portmanteau. He's frustrated. He was going to have his new lodger read them for him. Mr Guppy was going to do a switch with a false bundle of letters, so he could deliver them to Lady Dedlock. Mr Smallweed would like to get his hands on them. So would Mr Tulkinghorn.
Jo must be alive. Knowing Dickens, the reader will be there when Jo's time comes.
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Jo must be alive. Knowing Dickens, the reader will be there when Jo's time comes.
You're right, Jonathan. If a character like that dies, it won't be offstage.
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BABI: what a wonderful article! I'm so used to cameras, I never thought about how pictures got into earlier papers.
I confess, I'm getting lost in the ins and outs of this plot. Lucky for me the next section is simpler!
Skimpole has enough irresponsability to be responsable for (so to speak). I don't think he's involved in the letter business, that's Smallweed. Or am I wrong?
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OK, I admit it --- I cheated. I read the analysis section of Chapter 33, The Interlopers, from the Spark Notes. I was thrilled to read this opening sentence:
“The complicated financial arrangement between George, Mr. Smallweed, and the Bagnets, which is nearly impossible to understand, reflects both the tangled web of Jarndyce and Jarndyce as well as the interconnecting threads of the novel’s many storylines.”
The bold and underlining are mine! The note then goes on to explain:
“We have the facts, or what seem to be the facts: George once borrowed money from Mr. Bagnet to buy his shooting gallery; Mr. Bagnet borrowed this money from Mr. Smallweed with the understanding that George would repay it; and Mr. Smallweed, generally willing to collect interest instead of demanding repayment, is now demanding payment in full because he’s upset that George wouldn’t provide the lodger’s handwriting. The vaguer aspects of this situation include the many references to the “arrangement” George has with Mr. Smallweed; Mr. Smallweed’s “friend in the city,” who may be Richard or who may be no one at all; and George’s deep devotion to the Bagnets. Dickens does not spend much time elaborating on every element of this messy grouping, and a full understanding of the particulars isn’t the point. Instead, we get a clear sense that characters are linked to each other in complicated ways, that loyalties can be tested, and that motivations are not always what they seem. The shadowy dealings of Mr. Smallweed and George’s growing desperation add more sinister tones to the developing plot.”
Well, apparently, everything is supposed to be a clear as mud! Reading this made me feel so much better! We are not losing our minds! This is one complicated book!
I still don’t know who the interlopers are though! LOL!
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Pity the poor rag and bottle man. For years he has been trying to teach himself to read. He suspects that there might be profit in some of the old papers cluttering his place. Especially a bundle of letters which he has taken from a dead man's portmanteau. He's frustrated. He was going to have his new lodger read them for him. Mr Guppy was going to do a switch with a false bundle of letters, so he could deliver them to Lady Dedlock. Mr Smallweed would like to get his hands on them. So would Mr Tulkinghorn.
Thank you for this summary. This helps make things clearer too!
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Did we already know that Lady Dedlock had a son who was a soldier? This information was stated in Chapter 34.
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Skimpole has enough irresponsability to be responsable for (so to speak). I don't think he's involved in the letter business, that's Smallweed. Or am I wrong?
You are correct. It is Smallweed.
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Well, Laura, I'm glad to have permission not to have to figure that loan business out. :) I think the important thing is that it provides the means for Tulkinghorn to force George to give him a sample of Hawdon's handwriting. George can't just default and take the consequences, because Bagnet has stood security for him, and would be ruined too.
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Did you think that Mr. Tulkinghorn was going to let Mr. George walk out of his office without turning over those papers? I have forgotten why Mr. George hesitated to hand them over. They weren't letters or anything incrimiating that would bring dishonnor to his former Captain, were they? Wasn't it Mrs. Bagnet who advised him not to? Mr. Tulkinghorn wants to compare the handwriting on these papers with the handwriting that Lady Dedlock reacted to in an early chapter.
Laura, I don't think Lady Dedlock has any children after Esther. Perhaps you are remembering Mrs. Rouncewell, Lady Dedlock's housekeeper? She had a son who went to the army - that son was Mr. George. Not sure why he dropped his last name - will guess so he could not be found. But the other son - the Industrialist - the Ironmaster. His name is Rouncewell too, I presume. But he has a son, the one who is interested in Lady Dedlock's maid - Rosa. His name is Wat Taylor...not Rouncewell? Did you wonder at that too?
The surprising thing was finding the Dedlock housekeeper in Tulkinghorn's office in London. Was that ever explained?
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Everything seems to center on Tulkinghorn, doesn't it? He seems to have all the power - everyone working for him, to some degree. He is the attorney who is supposed to be investigating the relationship between Mrs.
SkimpoleSmallweed and her "brother" - Mr. Krook. Do you know what I think? I see the Smallweeds as the Interlopers in the title of this chapter. I don't believe they are related to Mr. Krook at all - I think that Mr. Tulkinghorn is behind this - and he is going to come out and say that Mrs. Skimpole Smallweed ais the rightlful owner of Krook and Rags...or at least he's going to delay pronouncing his findings until the Skimpoles find what they are looking for.
Poor Miss Flite - locked out of her flat. Who is caring for her caged birds?
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The surprising thing was finding the Dedlock housekeeper in Tulkinghorn's office in London. Was that ever explained?
I don't think it was explained; maybe it will be later. But isn't it an odd scene? Mrs. Rouncewell comes out of the office, notices George and Bagnet, remarks that they must be military men, and exchanges a few sentences with Bagnet about her military son. All this time that very son is standing with his back to her, supposedly engrossed in something over the fireplace. He has presumably recognized her voice, but she doesn't seem to recognize him, and he carefully doesn't turn around until she has left.
The ironmaster's son is Watt Rouncewell. Sir Leicester nervously thinks of him as Wat Tylor, the leader of the Peasant's Revolt of 1381.
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Laura, I don't think Lady Dedlock has any children after Esther. Perhaps you are remembering Mrs. Rouncewell, Lady Dedlock's housekeeper?
The surprising thing was finding the Dedlock housekeeper in Tulkinghorn's office in London. Was that ever explained?
Oh, you're right! I mixed up the two. Lady Dedlock's presence would have been a lot easier to explain!
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I was a bit startled to find Tulkinghorn was Smallweed's lawyer. On consideration, tho',
I suppose it's not all that surprising. Smallweed would definitely relate to a secretive
lawyer who likes to know everybody else's secrets.
With the sudden appearance of the Smallweed's claiming Krook's place, perhaps they are
the interlopers.
I suspect, JOANP, that George simply realized that Tulkinghorn was up to no good in
wanting to see a sample of his former Captain's handwriting. He was deeply loyal. If
Tulkinghorn had any reasonable and honorable explanation for his interest, he could have
explained it.
(Uh, that's Smallweeds again, not Skimpoles, re. Krooks.)
Ah, thank you, PAT. I had forgotten why Watt was called "Wat Taylor".
I really think the Bagnets' deserve more attention. Mrs. Bagnet has become a favorite of mine.
Mrs. Bagnet...”being that rare sort of old girl that she received Good to her arms without a hint that it might be Better; and catches light from any little spot of darkness near her.”
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Holding
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Babi-I'm with you I enjoy Mr. & Mrs. Bagnet; what a cute couple
he always giving his opinion thru his wife's voice
“Old girl,” murmurs Mr Bagnet, after a short silence, “will you tell him my opinion?”
“Oh! Why didn’t he marry,” Mrs Bagnet answers, half laughing and half crying, “Joe Pouch’s widder in North America? Then he wouldn’t have got himself into these troubles.”
and
“Old girl,” murmurs Mr Bagnet, “give him another bit of my mind.”
“George,” says the old girl, “you are not so much to be blamed, on full consideration, except for ever taking this business without the means.”
“And that was like me!” observes the penitent trooper, shaking his head. “Like me, I know.”
“Silence! The old girl,” says Mr Bagnet, “is correct — in her way of giving my opinions — hear me out!”
both husband & wife facing a loss of their savings still are deeply concerned with George's feeling low and not up to their company as he usually was I suppose
Deb
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I was glad to read that Esther’s blindness was temporary. However, I was saddened to read that her face was scarred. I thought it was a bit much when she was thinking of Mr. Woodcourt and was relieved that they had not had a romantic relationship so that he would not feel any obligation to her. I suppose Esther’s feelings are part of a mourning and readjustment process, but I just felt this was melodramatic --- but melodrama is something we are to expect in this book!
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I don’t really understand why Dickens chose to give Esther a disease that left her scarred. The blindness, thankfully, gradually passed. I could understand a dramatic, life-threatening illness from which she recovered. All England must have heaved a sigh of relief. But why the scarring?
What is Dickens' purpose in that?
And next.. Surely it’s impossible! Old Miss Flite, walking twenty miles? Much less in a
pair of dancing shoes! I know people in those times did a great deal of walking and thought
nothing of it. But still, this is an old lady, and a poor old lady at that, who probably hasn’t had
very much in the way of adequate nutrition. I'm surprised she is still able to get around Chancery
as well as she does.
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Good morning! I hope you all had a lovely weekend. Weather here was magnificent, great for getting out and about. This grandmother had tucked a little jar of colored bubble solution into Easter baskets...only to learn with horror that the colors - especially the purple ones, left huge splotches of color on the new Easter finery the kids were wearing. I wish I had a photo of the look on their mother's face as she read the warnings on the jar. Grandma hadn't read them. These were Crayola bubbles - who reads directions about staining clothes! Happy ending, DIL phoned last night to say she had laundered the clothes and the color all came out.
Lots of catching up today after the busy weekend with your observations of Installment 10. Are we all agreed that the Interlopers at the Krook's Rag and Bottle were the Smallweeds?
Do you think that Mrs. Smallweed is really Krook's sister? Is this just one of Dickens' many coincidences? Or do you think that someone has concocted this story in order to get access to whatever might be in Krook's flat? What other reason would the Smallweeds want in? Can it be that Tulkinghorn is behind this - that he thinks those incrimating letters might still be there?
Wasn't that a magnificent moment when Tulkinghorn enters the Dedlock's library as Mr. Guppy was leaving? The brief look of astonishment on his face that he was unable to conceal? What does he realize in that moment? Do you think he knew beforehand that Guppy had arranged to get those letters from Mr. Krook? What can it mean when he sees Guppy leaving Lady Dedlock's company?
Tulkinghorn was looking for two sets of handwriting - those letters from Lady Dedlock to Captain Hawdon - and samples of Captain Hawdon's handwriting - that will link him to Lady D. Is this how you see it? Is Tulkinghorn set on destroying Lady Dedlock? Is he getting closer to doing that? Does he know anything at all about Esther's background? He knows about everything else...
I really think Dickens' women are amazingly well depicted. He shows such great attention to the smallest details. Deb - I think we can all relate to the warm and sensible Mrs. Bagnet. Just don't threaten her family's well being! Wasn't it Mrs. Bagnet who had advised Mr. George against handing the papers over to Mr. Tulkinghorn? He followed her advice, but now must go against it - in order to prevent the Bagnet family from losing its life savings. Mr. George is getting screwed by the Tulkinghorn machine. So what does Tulkinghorn learn from this letter or paper in Captain Hawdon's handwriting??
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I've been wondering about the radical change in Esther's appearance too. That's a good question, Babi. Why does Dickens leave her with this altered appearance, probably for the rest of the novel? She probably looks less like the beautiful Mrs. Dedlock now, don't you think? I never could understand why some were struck by the similarity, others not at all. Did John Jarndyce see it? Did Ada? We're not told those things just yet. Those who loved her for herself before, will not change their perception of her. I wonder what Mr. Guppy's reaction will be...
At first I thought Esther's face was covered with pock marks from the smallpox - and wondered how little Charley had escaped the same disfigurement. I did a quick search and found this photo of a little girl in Bangladesh, whose appearance was radically changed by small pox - and can see there was a lot more to it the change, than just scars. Fortunately, today there is a laser treatment available - too late for Esther. I hope this photo isn't too shocking for you - but it does give you an idea of how Esther's face could have been altered...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Child_with_Smallpox_Bangladesh.jpg/230px-Child_with_Smallpox_Bangladesh.jpg)
I'm afraid I still don't understand how Esther's blindness was only temporary - but relieved to hear that it was. Honestly thought it was going to be permanent. Here's an article about effects of smallpox if you want to read more - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox
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Ah Mrs. Flite - 20 miles in her dancing slippers, Babi! I agree the image is unbelievable! She is elderly, locked our of her flat by the presumed Krook heirs. Where did she get those dancing slippers? I thought she owned next to nothing? Did the Smallweeds give her time to remove those caged birds? So many questions - {too many questions}?!
HOWEVER, we do know she thought it important enough to walk a great distance - whether it was five miles - or twenty - to tell Esther that the veiled lady is enquiring after her. What else does Mrs. Flite know about Esther? We've never been told what Miss Flite's lawsuit is about, have we? Is it in connection to the Jarndyce case? What do you think when you hear Miss Flite refer to Esther as "Miss Fitz-Jarndyce" - Are you as puzzled as I am, or does it mean something to you?
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Everybody is drawn to Esther, even if it means a twenty-mile walk. I believe the Fitz of Fitz Jarndyce indicates that for Miss Flyte, Esther is part of the Jarndyce clan, Fitz meaning related to. I believe. Several men are drawn to Esther in a romantic way. The scarred face will be a test of their devotion. Will they still be aware of the stirling character behind the scarred face?
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It's hard to believe Miss Flite's dancing shoes still had soles after walking 20 miles. Her motive for wanting to see Esther was concern for her in her illness. Miss Flite responds to kindness (probably doesn't get a lot of it) and Esther has been kind, friendly and concerned. It's natural for Miss F to flutter around to see how Esther is doing.
She didn't know about the handkerchief ahead of time. It was when she and Charlie were walking from the coach to the house that Jenny buttonholed them and told them about it.
What was her lawsuit about? She tells Esther something about it at dinner, but not what the original issue was. She doesn't exactly say, but I'm left with the impression that it is nothing to do with Jarndyce and Jarndyce. She does give us more foreboding about Richard, though: "I saw them (the tell-tale signs) beginning in our friend the Ward in Jarndyce. Let someone hold him back. Or he'll be drawn to ruin."
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JoanP: "Those who loved her for herself before, will not change their perception of her. I wonder what Mr. Guppy's reaction will be... "
We start the new section tomorrow, and some of your questions will be answered. The coming section is less complicated, but there are still intimations of further surprises. I'm beginning to wonder if all this sneaking about is just about Lady Dedlock's daughter out of wedlock, or if there is more to it. I'll bet there is money involved, too.
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All right, it's a stretch, PatH, but I can accept that Miss Flite decided to walk the 20 miles from London to Lincolnshire out of cocern for Esther who had been so kind to her. And Jonathan, thank you for explainingg the "Fitz-Jarndyce." Miss Flite does not mean to say that Esther is part of the Jarndyce family, but related to family because she is one of the three Jarndyce wards. Richard is however, a Jarndyce cousin - who turns from his benevolent cousin who has supported him through so much over the years. Don't you wonder what he has learned in his legal studies that makes him suspect his guardian of something? I sense Richard is way over his head - maybe beyond saving. But wouldn't that be unlike Dickens?
Good, JoanK - am glad we will pick up on some of these things tomorrow - it's hard to be kept hanging until the next installment. Even harder when the next installment says not a word on the big news from the previous one. I'm getting so that I am looking for "the big one" when we reach the end of each installment, are you? This one was HUGE. What did you think of the big revelation at the end of Installment X? -
We're told that Miss Flite has walked 20 miles in her dancing slippers and tells Esther on this visit that a veiled lady has been enquiring after her - and that this same lady is said to be the Lord Chancellor's wife? The Lord Chancellor's wife is
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _? Does this mean what I think it means? What did you think it meant when you read it?
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(http://cdn3.fotosearch.com/bthumb/CSP/CSP183/k1830736.jpg)
How about a show of hands - are you caught up? Have you finished reading Chapter 35? Have you begun Chapters 36-38? Are you having difficulty keeping with the proposed schedule, reading three chapters every five days? Do you need more time to catch up? Perhaps it was just the busy weekend that has left little time for reading? Please post here so we know how to proceed with the discussion... Thanks so much!
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I've read through Chapter 36. I am going to have trouble participating much until Friday morning, but after that, my schedule will free up again and the schedule we have been keeping will be fine with me. Maybe we need a couple of catch up days. The time around Easter is very busy.
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Thank you, Laura - that helps with the planning - let's see what the others think about a slowdown. We do need to finish up with Chapter 35 - do you have any time at all to share your views on the identity of the Lord Chancellor - until the end of Chapter 35 unknown? BUT, he is said to be the husband of the veiled woman who was enquiring after Esther. I guess the question is - who was the veiled woman who was enquiring after Esther...I CAN'T WAIT to hear from the rest of you. I'm not sure I reached the right conclusion, but if I did - wow! :D
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Apparently Tulkinghorn checked the Smallweed's documents and found them in
order. Mrs. Smallweed was indeed Krook's sister. So many connections...and do
you notice Tulkinghorn seems to be in the center of so many of them?
I don't believe Esther's scarring was anywhere near as severe as the poor little
girl in the photo. This child probably recived little proper care and may have
been in poor health to begin with. Esther's appearance is altered, and to a
young woman with reasonably good looks that would seem very harsh. Those who
love her are quick to reassure her that it makes no difference to them.
I think I'll keep this brief this morning. Not feeling well and a return to bed sounds like
a wonderful idea. :P Until tomorrow....
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I suspect the veiled woman was the angry Hortense, perhaps wanting people to think she is someone else. But I have to go back and reread some parts. Actually, I've been reading ahead, and I can tell you that we're getting to the good part. There are some wonderful scenes ahead.
'But wouldn't that be unlike Dickens?' What a strange suggestion, JoanP. Are you wondering, would Dickens allow Richard to go the way of Gridley and Tom Jarndyce? Yes he would. Dickens as a storyteller gets carried away at times. He can be ruthless, maudlin, generous, prejudiced, and willing to give every screw another turn. Already there have been some needless deaths, just to move the story along. We shouldn't take it too seriously. Unless Mr Bucket shows up.
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We're told that Miss Flite has walked 20 miles in her dancing slippers and tells Esther on this visit that a veiled lady has been enquiring after her - and that this same lady is said to be the Lord Chancellor's wife? The Lord Chancellor's wife is
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _? Does this mean what I think it means? What did you think it meant when you read it?
I thought Lady Dedlock was asking after Esther. We know her to be Esther's mother. I think a mother is concerned for her child and is trying to find out, covertly, how she is doing.
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I'm easy with either moving on, or staying a few days. Between Easter, Passover, and income tax, it's a busy time.
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I am back after five hard ,but wonderful days of children and grandchildren, nieces, nephews, and great grands. A medley aged 3,4, 5, 6, 7. This is a different world!All playing Angry Birds on I phones and I-Pads. Thank goodness "Curious George" is still beloved among all this new stuff.
Well back to Dickens. I was so worried that I wouldn't catch up that I completed the reading up to the end of chap. 38 before all the madness started. I took a bit of notes too.
However I don't want to spill the beans for anyone who has not read these wonderful chapters.
I will mention the words of Skimpole to Esther in chapt. 37
"I never was responsible in my life.. I can't be".
Skimpole then describes "Common Sense"........"an excellent man...a good deal wrinkled...dreadfully practical, change for a pound note in every pocket, ruled account book in hand-say, upon the whole, resembling a tax gatherer".
I am still wondering what Skimpole is doing in the story. One guess, he is like a magnet pulling weak people like Richard to his way of thinking. I sure don't like Mr.Skimpole . Yet he seems to have no serious influence on mr. John Jarndyce. Perhaps thus proving the inner strength and goodness of Mr. Jarndyce.
The other scene I would like to mention (affects the plot not at all) is the scene of the child apprentices at the Dancing School. This played out in my mind like a movie. I found it such wonderful writing that I read and reread it just for the fineness of the prose and the deep understanding of the nature of children.(chap. 38).
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Gee Jonathan...I'm so glad you spoke up. I just assumed the veiled lady who enquired after Esther's health - and then took Esther's handkerchief, left money - had to be none other than Lady Dedlock. Just assumed it, until your post when you suggested it might be someone else - like the French maid, Hortense. So - went back and reread Chapter 35 again...there's so much there that I'd forgotten. Laura, I see you too thought the mysterious veiled woman was Esther's mother, Lady Dedlock. Can you imagine what that would mean? And if Miss Flite is correct (lots of if's there) - Miss Flite tells Esther that the veiled woman is married to the Lord Chancellor! :o
Jonathan...don't you find Richard young, impressionable, easily led? I think he's just the kind of boy that Dickens likes to give a second chance? I'll admit, Richard is a borderline case - I'm betting that Dickens finds something redeemable in him - and he's planning a happy ending for Richard and Ada after all... :D
Here's what I found on rereading the end of Esther's narrative - Chapter 35.
First of all, the veiled lady is the Lord Chancellor's wife - that seems to leave out Hortense, Jonathan. BUT, this mystery lady
Miss Flite tells Esther tells Esther about - took the handkerchief without asking - and left money. She tells Esther that the lady gives her husband, the Lord Chancellor a terrible life. Throws his lordship's papers into the fire, if he wont' pay the jeweller.
Does this sound like Lady Dedlock to you? Miss Flite could probably identify this lady - she seems to know who she is - and certainly knows the Lord Chancellor very well, spending so much time in his court. Here's Dickens, confusing us once more. What do you make of sweet Miss Flite? Do you think there is any truth to what she is saying? Do you think her mad - just a little, as others tell Esther?
Right now, I don't know what to think. Who else can this veiled lady be?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
|
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illladywood.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illladywood.jpg)
Lady Dedlock in the Wood
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
XII
XIII |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Feb. 1853
Mar. 1853 |
CHAPTERS
36-38
39-42 |
DISCUSSION DATES
April 10--Apr.14
April 15-Apr.19 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illghostwalk.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illghostwalk.jpg)
The Ghost's Walk
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
Chapter XXXVI Chesney Wold
1. What devices does Dickens use to heighten the heartrending character of this chapter? What devices to provide relief and contrast? Did he do a good job, or do you find it too sentimental?
2. Even after Esther sees herself, we still don't know what she looks like. What is your mental picture of her? Do you think you could have reacted the way she did?
3. Esther becomes very sensitive to how people react to infirmities, and observes "how natural it is to gentle hearts to be considerate and delicate toward any infirmity"? Do your observations and experiences agree with that or not?
4. Does this chapter change your impression of Lady Dedlock's character? Are her actions realistic? If you know someone who met their birth mother as an adult, did they react as Esther did? What do you think Lady Dedlock said in the letter that Esther refuses to tell us now, saying "It has its own times and places in my story"?
5. What does this chapter tell us about Tulkinghorn? Do you know anyone who has too little passion to be either a friend or an enemy? If so, how do you deal with them?
6. Esther has a premonition that it is she who is the ghost of the "Ghost's Walk". Do you think this will prove to be true?
Chapter XXXVIII Jarndyce and Jarndyce
1. Do you think Esther did the right thing by telling no one her secret?
2. Why does Richard meet Esther in this secret way?
3. Does it seem logical that Richard and Skimpole should become good friends? What effect do they have on each other? Do you think Skimpole not as artless as he seemed?
4. Why is Esther "not sure that Richard loved her (Ada) dearly"?
5. Where do Richard's suspicions of John Jarndyce come from? Are they against his nature or not? Is it the nature of the law case, or is someone feeding them? Who will they hurt more, John or Richard?
6. We have a new character, Mr. Vholes, "looking at him (Richard) as if he were looking at his prey and charming it". What is there about Richard that makes him a natural prey?
Chapter XXXVIII The Struggle
1. Do you agree with Esther that Caddy has "struck out a natural, wholesome, loving course ... that was quite as good as a mission" (presumably, as a mission in Africa)? What does this tell us about Dickens' values?
2. What is the basis of the friendship between Mr. Turveydrop and Mr. Jellyby?
3. What is the "struggle" in this chapter about? What does Guppy want? What does Esther want? Why is this so important to her? Do you think she anticipated Guppy's reaction to her changed appearance and used it deliberately?
4. Do you find this "struggle" funny? Pathetic? Both? |
Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Jude a regular preschool! I know what you mean about those gadgets...mine each had their own DS games...two had the DS3 - which made the others green with envy. Ds3 comes with a camera.
We'll get into the next installment very soon - we're trying to unravel how Dickens left us at the end the last installment, chapter 35. How did you understand it? Any ideas about the veiled mystery lady who is married to the Lord Chancellor? Have we solved that mystery - or not?
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Not!
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What do you make of sweet Miss Flite? Do you think there is any truth to what she is saying? Do you think her mad - just a little, as others tell Esther?
I think the "Lord Chancellor's Wife" bit is just Miss Flite being nutty. She hasn't seen the veiled woman, all she knows is what Jenny told her and Charlie. And we know she is a bit obsessed with the Lord Chancellor, both the real one, and Krook, who is called that. And the details Miss F gives don't really make sense.
It makes sense for the veiled lady to be Lady Dedlock, concerned for the woman she has just learned is her child, and eager to get a keepsake.
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See, this is why I need you all sitting next to me when I'm reading Dickens! In my mind, there was not the slightest doubt that the veiled lady was Lady Dedlock - actually, I still think so, as you did, Laura - and PatH. But was so ready to believe Miss Flite when she reported that the Lord Chancellor was married to this lady - off an running with the idea that the Lord Chancellor was none other than - Sir Leicester, as proposterous as that sounds to me now. Thank you, PatH, for reining me in and injecting some common sense when translating Miss Flite's comments. Dickens keeps telling us the poor woman is slightly mad - don't know why I took her at her word on this one.
There's more about her suit before the Chancery in this chapter - it seems that her father and her brother were both involved - she recognizes that it did them in and seems to understand the harm that comes from getting too involved in it...remarkably lucid on this point - and yet she persists. She expresses concern for Richard and his involvement as well. What do you think? Will Dickens save Richard at the end, or will he go down as all of the others who hitched their wagon to the outcome of the case?
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" I am still wondering what Skimpole is doing in the story."Jude.
After reading the next Installment, I'm really worried about Richard teaming up with this guy, Jude. Do we have any evidence that Skimpole is waiting for the outcome of Jarndyce vs. Jarndyce too? How did he become involved with John Jarndyce in the first place? I've been wondering all along how John Jarndyce keeps himself from getting involved. He seems strangely detached from the outcome of the case, doesn't he? And Esther too - there is no indication that she is involved in the whole tangled affair, except that she is Jarndyce's ward. But I'm beginning to suspect she is more involved than we know - or than she knows.
At the end of Chapter 35, we are told that Dr. Allan Woodcourt has returned sooner than the two years he was to be in India - Esther confesses that she has feelings for him. Jonathan's right, a tangled web! Some of the secrets are about to be revealed, though Dickens has a way of keeping us guessing, even when he gives us some answers. Are you ready for the next installment, the big scene out at Chesney Wold?
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I can't imagine for a moment Hortense leaving money for Esther! No, I'm
confident it was Lady Dedlock. Hard to say who Miss Flite would call the Lord
Chancellor, but I wouldn't think it was the Lord Chancellor himself she was
referring to. Miss Flite could be confusing Lord 'Chancellor' for Lord Dedlock.
I suspect she is becoming more and more confused.
One other thing before proceeding. What do you make of this? ”It was not the custom in England to confer titles on men distinguished by peaceful services, however good and great; unless occasionally, when they consisted of the accumulation of some very large amount of money.” How true do you think that is?
Miss Flite believed titles were awarded because of a man’s knowledge, imagination, humanity and social improvement. In response to which Esther writes, “I am afraid she believed what she said; for there were moments when she was very mad indeed.”
Mr. Skimpole....may he eventually receive all he deserves... is so clever at
justifying his selfishness and irresponsibility. Yet in describing what a ‘respectable companion’
would tell Richard Carstone, he says, “shows him it’s nothing but fees, fraud, horsehair wigs,
and black gowns”. Very perceptive of a ‘child’ who understands nothing of business. Why
cannot John Jarndyce see this?
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Miss Flite believed titles were awarded because of a man’s knowledge, imagination, humanity and social improvement. In response to which Esther writes, “I am afraid she believed what she said; for there were moments when she was very mad indeed.”
I love that bit. Dickens wrapping up his social criticisms in humor.
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Why can't Jarndyce see through Skimpole? I think he doesn't quite want to, is almost afraid to. Skimpole is the object of his benevolence, and he wouldn't want to think that S. was deceiving him.
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Are we allowed to talk about the chapts:36-38 yet? Have to, sometime soon.
I was shocked by their contents.
We solve some major riddles and new ones appear in their place.
Esther becomes more wonderful.
Richard descends lower and lower.
At least Caddy is happy and Guppy is made unhappy and yet shows that he has some backbone.
I'm begginning to think that the Skimpole character is not as innocent as he seems. Perhaps Jarndyce keeps him close so he can't do the harm he has potential for. What harm he does to others is to do good for himself. He is a snake-perhaps even a venomous one.
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Do you think it's Dickens' humor that saves his stories - provides relief and keeps them from becoming too sentimental? How about this scene when Esther meets her mother - at last. I didn't find it too much, did you? There was Esther so concerned about showing her new face to Ada, but when she meets her mother, there wasn't a single word about it.
A perfect place to meet, wasn't it? Overlooking the Ghost's Walk at Chesney Wold. Do you sense we're getting closer to Lady D's downfall? I had to go back and reread Chapter VII when the curse of the spirit on the terrace was first introduced. If there is disgrace on the House of Dedlock, Sir Leicester will "gasp and die." Mrs. Rouncewell is very close to Sir Leciester, having been his housekeeper for 50 years. Do you assume she will try to protect him from disgrace? From Lady Dedlock? From Esther?
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I think most of us have caught up - no one requests we slow down...
I feel the same way, Jude...Skimpole is not good for Richard...was it his idea that Richard hire his own attorney, Mr. Vholes, to separate Richard's interests from his guardian? I'm still puzzling over that name - Vholes. How did Dickens come up with that one?
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Yes, lets do move on. I hope you had plenty of hankies ready when you read Chapter 36. I was definately crying! JoanP doesn't think it's too sentimental. Do you all agree? Do you think Esther is just too good to be true? I admit I did when she started to feel guilty for having been born.
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Ha! I notice in the Lady Dedlock in the woods picture in the heading, the artist has hidden Esther's face by her bonnet. We really are going to have to imagine for ourselves what she looks like. Not as bad as the photo above I'm sure. Does anyone remember from the PBS production?
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Victorian reticence is showing here; Esther is also completely unspecific about her changed appearance--you couldn't even know that there were pockmarks. Non-specificness is good here, though.
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I'm still puzzling over that name - Vholes. How did Dickens come up with that one?
I don't know if that's what Dickens meant, but I assumed he named the lawyer after the field vole. It's a rodent, kind of like a large mouse. They're sort of cute, but they're awful garden pests, eating plant roots and making burrows.
http://www.naturephoto-cz.com/field-vole,-short-tailed-vole-photo-2973.html (http://www.naturephoto-cz.com/field-vole,-short-tailed-vole-photo-2973.html)
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There are Land Voles and Water Voles. The latter commonly called "water rats".
Voles usually die after their second winter. They procreate widely having 5-10 litteres of 6-8 babies per litter.
They are often taken for other small rodents such as shrews, mice or rats.
An unsavory name for an unsavory person.
Dickens wasn't pulling any inuendos here. He was shouting out what he thought of this man and his three thin, tall and not very pretty daughters.
Vholes is Skimpoles "friend" and he introduced him to Richard and strongly suggested that Vholes represent Richard in Jarndyce vs. Jarndyce. Probably Skimpole gets a bonus from Vholes who is bleeding Richard dry.
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JoanK, how clever of you to look at the enlarged illustration of the Lady in the Wood for a clue as to what Dickens had in mind with the appearance of Esther's face. Covering it with the bonnet indicates to me that he intends to keep that detail "covered" up too. Esther must be okay with looking at herself in the mirror now ...did you notice her comment that "heavy color came back to her new face." She was even able to take in stride the child's question- "Mother, why is the lady not a pretty lady now?" So Esther was once a "pretty lady" - though she has told us she was never a "great beauty"?
Somehow I wasn't as surprised at Esther's reaction to her mother's request...as I was at Lady Dedlock's...so intent on keeping her secret, she tells her child that they must never speak or see one another again. So where is Dickens going with the story? Will it take Lady Dedlock's exposure to make possible a reunion between the two?
Esther has a premonition that it is she who is the ghost of the "Ghost's Walk".
Don't you wonder who would tell Esther about that legend? Surely not Mrs. Rouncewell - but if not that lady, then who? It's in this chapter that we learn why Mrs. Rouncewell came to London to Mr. Tulkinghorn's office - he's her lawyer - she had come to change her will. Since Tulkinghorn is so often at Chesney Wold, I had to wonder why she had to make the trip to talk to him. And why is she changing her will at this time?
So many questions...
Thanks for the thoughts on voles...interesting -
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I think it would be reasonable to expect Mrs. Rouncewell will do
all she can to protect and care for Sir Leicester. He and his house-
hold have been the center of her existence for many years now, and
she seems a caring and devoted person.
Skimpole is not the only one who has been doing harm to Richard.
His lawyer, with his dry, sly insinuations, has done much to turn
Richard against his benefactor. It is he who has convinced Richard
that Jarndyce has a stake in discouraging his hopes.
Good call, PAT. Vholes does resemble a rodent, doesn't he? He
is definitely 'eating plant roots'...notably Richard's. The list of the marks of respectability had me bemused. Even then, they recognized ‘impaired digestion’ as a hallmark of Mr. Vholes’ kind of respectability.
JOANP, I really believe that Lady Dedlock does not want to bring
harm to Sir Leicester. He has been good to her, and she knows it.
She wanted her child to know who she was and that she loved her, but
she is willing to be satisfied with that for her husband's sake.
I love Dickens! Did anyone else notice? Who else would describe a portrait which, “was more like than life: it insisted upon him with such obstinacy, and was so determined not to let him off.”
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Good get, BABI! I tend to read right past these little gems.
Which reminds me: the whole pace of life was slower then. And that probably meant the pace of reading, too. Perhaps people took time to savor the details more than they do now. Or at least than I do. I read as if I'm running for a train.
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Mr. Vholes may be named after a vole, but I see him as a vulture! What is it about Richard that marks him off as prey?
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Joan K
What makes Richard prey?
What comes to mind is the sentence from the Brit sitcom "Are You Being Served?".
"Weak as Water!".
Why he is the way he is, perhaps we shall never know. Or he may even redeem himself in a later chapter.
We don't know what made Ada the way she is either.
What we do know is what Mr Dickens wants us to know as when he writes of Vholes:
"In a word, Mr Vholes.........is continually doing duty, like a piece of timber, to shore up some decayed foundation that has become a pitfall and a nuisance. ......the question is never one of a change from wrong to right (which is quite an extraneous consideration), but is always one of injury or advantage to that eminently respectable legion, Vholes."
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"weak as water" is a good way to put it. If they marry, I hope Ada is strong. So far we know she is sweet, pretty, and loving, but she hasn't had a chance to see whether she is strong enough for two.
Or maybe Esther will wind up carrying both of them.
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What makes Richard prey? Why, it's the possibility that Richard might become the heir to whatever is left of the Jarndyce fortune. There are many who have read the documents - including Richard, who know this. Skimpole must know this too. Why can't Jarndyce see Skimpole for what he is? Maybe he does...maybe he's right. Maybe Skimpole is the weak character Jarndyce thinks he is. Like Richard. Someone is pulling the strings... It's got to be Tulkinghorn, don't you think? Isn't Dickens making this clear? Who will stop him? Is there anyone more powerful than Tulkinghorn?
Why is Richard approaching Esther - his " best friend" - telling her he's in town on leave from the army to look after his Chancery interests? He's trying to get her to see things as he does - and persuade Ada to separate her interests from Jarndyce in the case too. Did Esther agree to this?
Again the question - Is there anyone more powerful than Tulkinghorn?
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Good take on Vholes, JUDE. And did you notice....another Dickens specialty, juxtaposing little scenes that suggest the truth of a matter to the reader: Vholes and Richard Carstone in consultation:“Vholes, buttoned up in body and mind, looks at him attentively. All the while, Vholes’s official cat watches the mouse’s hole.”.
The legal scene has always had a bad rep. Maybe Dickens explains it here. According to him, with a great many people, the question of Wrong and Right is “quite an extraneous consideration”, as JUDE pointed out. Considering the business and legal scandals that are all
too present today, he could be right. “The one great principle of the English law is, to make business for itself. “ "Let them but once clearly perceive that its grand principle is to make business for itself at their expense, and surely they will cease to grumble.’
There are, of course, exceptions to all this and some fine men are in law. Nevertheless, we
have not ceased to grumble over what is widely perceived as the primary notivation of lawyers.
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Thanks for the detail of the cat, Babi. I don't notice those things until someone points them out to me. Here's one I did notice, way back in "Sharpshooters".
Smallweed is persuading George to go see the lawyer, Tulkinghorn, "...pulling out a lean old silver watch, with hands like the legs of a skeleton."
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"weak as water" is a good way to put it. If they marry, I hope Ada is strong. So far we know she is sweet, pretty, and loving, but she hasn't had a chance to see whether she is strong enough for two.
I'm not sure l I really know what Ada is like. She's very pretty, affectionate, and everyone likes her on sight, but they treat her more like a pet than a serious human being. Her behavior when Esther is sick is childish: "I had heard my Ada crying at the door day and night; I had heard her calling to me that I was cruel and did not love her; I had heard her praying and imploring to be let in to nurse and comfort me, and to leave my bedside no more...." It's understandable for Ada to be that upset, but she must know the good reasons for keeping her out, and she's making things harder for everyone.
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Reading ahead has left me little time to reply to your posts. But reading them, I can see you're all caught up in this Dickens masterpiece:
'It's got to be Tulkinghorn, don't you think?'
'Why can't Mr Jarndyce see through Skimpole?'
'What we do know is what Dickens wants us to know.'
'There are, of course, exceptions to all this and some fine men are in law.'
'But melodrama is something we are to expect in this book!'
I like your exclamation mark, Laura. Name one, Babi. I agree, Jude. In fact, sometimes, Dickens is less than helpful. Skimpole, Pat, I believe, is the alternative to Tulkinghorn as an object of detestation. I believe that Dickens is still not certain who the sacrificial lamb is going to be. In fact I've become very impatient to find out who is left alive in the end. I'm not going to give anything away, but my disappointment is very great.
Another quote from JoanP: 'Do you think it's Dickens's humor that saves his stories?'
It sure gets laughable at times. The reader is left to get the timing right.
Did you all know that the State of Delaware has set up a Chancery Court to settle lawsuits more expeditiously?
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The law firm where Guppy works, seems reputable. But hasn't he been left bewildered by the turn of events. He could probably murder the author, given an opportunity. That unrequited image! It's all the author's fault.
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I beleve a lot of smart lawyers have come out of Delaware. Smarter than the guys in Philadelphia.
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The rule of law is a wonderful thing. Many years ago I paid a visit to the courthouse in a Hudson River Valley town. Nailed to the door was a notice: 'No Guns Beyond This Point.' What a victory for the lawyers, I thought.
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OK, OK, I'll stop now.
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Yes, you'd better! :)
"The business of the law is to make business for itself," Yes, it's true. I can't help thinking of the difference between buying a house 40 years ago and when I bought my condo 2 years ago. In 1970, we came away with a few documents. Now, I have three large desk drawers that are full to overflowing with all the documents I got.
The same with wills. Mine, made 40 years ago, is a few pages. Now, you can hardly carry them.
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Does anyone think they know what was in the part of Lady Dedlock's letter to Esther that she doesn't share with us?
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I knew a very fine man, JONATHAN, who was a lawyer. It's been a while, so I don't
remember the name. He dealt entirely with business law, drawing up contracts,
things like that. So, that's one!
As for a potential victim, I would think Tulkinghorn rather than Skimpole. The
death of Skimpole really wouldn't stir up much interest, would it? A tsk, tsk, a
shake of the head, and on about one's business.
I would suppose the undisclosed part of the letter is simply very personal, JOAN. Esther's
narratives try to avoid any sign of self-praise. and I imagine her Mother had very loving
things to say.
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Unfortunately, at one point I read a sentence too far in a wikipedia article that said who the victim was, so I know. I stopped instantly, so don't know if they revealed the murderer. Nowadays, the publishers want a murder in the first 4 pages of a mystery, and here we are, over half way through, and still no murder. A more leisurely time.
I'll add 2 to your list of good lawyers, Babi. My father was a lawyer, and was the most honorable man I've ever known. One of my daughters is a lawyer, equally honorable, and is making the world a better place with what she does.
Unfortunately, although they are caricatures, Tulkinghorn and Vholes are real types too.
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So far we've all tiptoed around the big emotional scene at Chesney Wold. Has everyone read it now? (Obviously some of you have, since you're beyond it.) What did you think? Was it realistic? overdone?
At first I reacted as JoanK did when Esther felt guilty for having been born, but then I remembered that she was raised to feel that her existence was shameful, and she must have a big load of guilt feelings inside her.
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The scene when Lady Dedlock reveals herself to Esther...What did I feel?
I felt it was highly melodramatic. In fact I felt like talking to the author and saying:
"Oh, Mr D., Have you forgotten your understanding of the human soul? You are so brilliant usually. Why was this scene so awkward?"
I understand that you wanted us to think :What secret is Lady Dedlock still hiding?
Or perhaps :What else will be revealed in the future ?
But the turmoil both must be feeling could not leave them so quickly .
Mr. D. smiles at me ...."Patience my dear. They have waited so long that you must beleve all will be healed in the end. Have I ever let you down?"
Mr D. has concluded his statement. there will be no more at this time.
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Oh- I want to chime in about Lawyers.
Like every other profession there are good people and bad people.
Lawyers are no different than other smart, well educated segment of the population.
They are so much on public display that it is easy to find fault.
Dickens has a skewed view as we all know. He paints the Lawyers with a dark toned paint on his brush. This may be a personal bias and the need to find villains or perhaps he had some unhappy dealings with this profession.
However much has changed in the years since Dickens wrote . Also our system in the U.S.A. is very different than that in England of those times.
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Ahh, JUDE, your faith in Mr. D. is boundless. No, he never let us down, except in dying halfway through Edwin Drood, so we'll never know how it ends. And I don't suppose he had much choice in that!
Anyone else think Mr. D. overdid it?
"here we are, over half way through, and still no murder" So Nemo and Krook weren't murders? I read too many murder mysteries: of course I assume a strange death is a murder! OK, pile on more bodies!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illattorney.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illattorney.jpg)
Attorney and Client
Fortitude and Patience
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
XIII
XIV |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Mar. 1853
Apr. 1853 |
CHAPTERS
39-42
43-45 |
DISCUSSION DATES
April 16--Apr.20
April 21-Apr.25 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illsunset.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illsunset.jpg)
Sunset in the Long Drawing Room
at Chesney Wold
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
Chapter XXXIX Attorney and Client
1. What descriptions of Mr. Vholes do you find especially appropriate?
2. What descriptions of the "new" Richard in this chapter do you find poignant?
3. Has your opinion of Mr. Guppy changed in any way at the end of this chapter?
Chapter XL National and Domestic
1. What do you think of Dicken's descriptions of what is happening on the national front?
2. How does Dicken's describe Bleak House to foreshadow what's to come in this chapter and, perhaps, beyond?
3. What impression do you have of Mr. Tulkinghorn and how he handles the information he has about Lady Dedlock?
Chapter XLI In Mr. Tulkinghorn's Room
1. What questions does Lady Dedlock ask of Mr. Tulkinghorn? What are her concerns?
2. What does Mr. Tulkinghorn want?
Chapter XLII In Mr. Tulkinghorn's Chambers
1. What has Hortense been doing? What does she want?
2. How do Hortense and Mr. Tulkinghorn react to one another?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Where is the evil coming from? All from Mr. Tulkinghorn? Somehow, I feel that there's someone else behind him, pulling his strings. More is being done here than just collecting secrets. What do you all think? Is that just my mystery story background again, where whodunnit isn't revealed until the end?
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PatH, I don't see how the meeting between mother and daughter could have been any less dramatic than as Dickens portrayed - given the situation. As Jude points out, the initial reaction was powerful, but then they both did seem to get past their joy rather quickly - and on to the need for future secrecy. That seemed to be the main concern. Maybe it was supposed to show their deep concern for one another - but Lady Dedlock seemed to be more concerned about herself than for Esther's well-being. Whereas Esther, being Esther, was more concerned for her mother - more ashamed that she might be the cause of her mother's disgrace.
So, how many mysteries have been cleared up now? It is certain that Lady D is Esther's mother, but is it a fact that Captain Hawdon/Nemo, fathered her? I'm not so sure. Did Lady D tell Esther who he was in the letter? I can't think of what other secret she might have told her. Whatever it was, it really got the usually imperturbable Esther down, wishing she'd never been born.
Did you notice that Lady D asked Esther if John Jarndyce suspects? Suspects what? That she is Esther's mother? That seems to indicate that he was not involved in whatever happened at the time Esther was born. She gives Esther permission to tell Jarndyce - unless an emergency arises. I have the feeling that an emergency will arise, don't you?
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JoanK, didn't Lady D indicate that Mr. Tulkinghorn was the enemy?
Esther: "Is the secret safe?"
Lady Dedlock: "No, very near discovery - saved by an accident."
Esther: "Do you dread a particular person?"
Lady Dedlock: "Very much."
Esther: "An enemy?"
Lady Dedlock: "Not a friend. One is too passionless to be either."
This sounds as if it's M. Tulkinghorn, but I'll admit, Dickens leaves room for it to be someone else "pulling the strings," Joank - someone like Sir Leicester, for example. I keep remembering this is Charles Dickens - and Tulkinghorn is too obviously the evil one. Often Dickens turns the tables at the end. Is Tulikinghorn too obvious?
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The enemy is surely Tulkinghorn, since Lady D says it is Sir Leicester's lawyer.
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Hmmm, maybe Lady Dedlock sees Tulkinghorn as her enemy, but the source of evil might be someone else - forcing Tulkinghorn to stalk Lady D...
I'm not so sure Nemo and Krook weren't murdered, are you? Where's Bucket?
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Yes, where is Bucket when you need him.
We were going to go on to the next section tomorrow, but a lot of people haven't posted in this one yet, so we'll give it an extra day, and move on on Monday. Now's the time to get in last thoughts or tell us if your behind.
Have we lost anyone to income tax struggles? I swore this was the last year I'd do it myself -- that next year I'd hire someone and relax. But all my friends who hire someone are stressed because the people they hired haven't gotten back to them yet. I guess there's no easy way.
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What about Chapter 38, with Esther using her changed appearance to blackmail Guppy. Is that funny, pathetic, or both? (Good for Esther-- I like it when she shows spirit).
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I'm interested in what was in the letter from Lady Dedlock that prompted Esther to go to London to have that little visit with Mr. Guppy. Quite a humorous scene, following the dramatic ones before. But Esther felt it necessary to go to him and dissuade him from his promise to make discoveries about her past and advance her interests...
We're back to the question of what Lady Dedlock told Esther in that letter - something that she didn't tell her during their talk in the Wood. It seems to me that it must have been something that Esther felt Guppy might discover if he did searching in Kenge and Carboy's files...
And judging from "the struggle in Mr. Guppy's breast" I'm guessing that Mr. Guppy already has some information about Esther that he doesn't know what to do with now that he has promised her not to go further. I'm afraid for him, afraid that another person knows that he is on to something and will try to force him into breaking his promise to Esther.
So far, Guppy is the only one who reacted to Esther's altered appearance, isn't he?
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“If you hear of Lady Dedlock, brilliant, prosperous, and flattered, think of your wretched mother, conscience-stricken, underneath that mask! . . . . . And then forgive her if you can, and cry to Heaven to forgive her, which it never can!"
Why does Lady Dedlock need to be forgiven. Why is she wretched? Does she tell about this in her letter?
The chapters with Caddy Turveydrop and the visit to Mr. Guppy were much needed to relieve the stress of Esther’s illness and her discovery about her mother. Poor Mr.Guppy, ha ha. He deserved to be embarrassed. Yes, JoanP, I think he’s the only one who has reacted to Esther’s changed appearance. I felt a little sorry for his mother who was no doubt thinking her son was going to make a good match.
I loved hearing Caddy talk about her FIL – how he and her father get along so well. Not surprising. Mr. Turveydrop loves to talk, and Mr. Jellyby has had a lot of practice in listening. Probably a little lopsided relationship, but it works. And Peepy – he’s become important to someone and Mr T gets lots of attention.
I’ve been trying to catch up with the DVD, and think Jonathan hit the nail right when he suggested that Skimpole helped Jo leave. In the scene when they discover that Jo has gone there is one brief flash of Skimpole alone, with his perpetual smirk, looking out the window.
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It's good to have you back with us, pedln. An action-packed section.
Even without whatever Lady D said in the letter, Esther would have reason to need to stop Guppy's sleuthing. He had hinted that he might know something to her advantage concerning an illustrious family. With her new knowledge, that would be enough for Esther.
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Pedlin: "Why does Lady Dedlock need to be forgiven."
Good question. For "abandoning" Esther? (Which she didn't really do since she thought E was dead)? For having Esther out of wedlock? For something we don't know about yet?
I hope the letter tells Esther who her father is. But is there more? Again, I'll bet there's money involved.
I missed Skimpole and his smirk. I'm getting reeeeaaally tired of Skimpole!
And any sympathy I had for Guppy is gone
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I never saw Guppy as a match for Esther. Something about his hair... ;)
Pedln, Skimpole smirked in the film, right? Not in the book... That was an adaptation, I think.
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I’m glad you waited an extra day to move on. I have a chance to give a few thoughts on things before I read the next section.
I didn’t find Chapter 36 to be too melodramatic. Honestly, a mother and child being reunited after so many years should be melodramatic. I liked this chapter a lot. I wonder who will be able to keep their secret the longest --- Lady Dedlock or Esther?
Chapter 37 was interesting. Richard is falling further away from where he should be in life. Now Mr. Skimpole has been persuaded to introduce Mr. Vholes to Richard. Obviously, word is out that Richard is “easy pickings.” Maybe, in Richard, Dickens is providing us an example of how the legal case Jarndyce and Jarndyce sneaks in and then eats away at someone, eventually consuming him. Dickens is also allowing us to see how those around Richard are affected by his being consumed by the legal case too.
I assume that something Esther read in Lady Dedlock’s letter to her caused Esther to contact Mr. Guppy and request that he not work to determine her personal history anymore. I was glad for this lighter chapter after the prior one.
Onward!
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LAURA: " I was glad for this lighter chapter after the prior one." yes, I was too. Dickens knows how to change the mood, doesn't he.
Off to read the next section!
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And to check if "Edwin Drood" is on tonight on PBS.
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I never saw Guppy as a match for Esther. Something about his hair... ;)
Right. His hair, those striped pants in the pictures, other comic touches.
And besides, Dickens wouldn't have a heroine marry someone of a lower social class than herself. Guppy even drops his aitches sometimes. (Horrors!)
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We can continue to talk about past chapters as we move now to the next instalment XIII.
In chapter 13 we're confronted with the seemingly still and buttoned-up Mr. Vholes and a "new" Richard. We also see Mr. Guppy at the end of the chapter, perhaps in a different light. Any thoughts about those characters and how they are described in this chapter?
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"The great principle of the English law - to make business for itself at the expense of the laity. Changes in legal practices would be death to a man like Vholes."
Mr. Vholes seems to stand for everything that's wrong with the British legal system in Dickens' time. Do you think it's any better today?
"Vholes looks at Richard as if he were making a lingering meal of him with his eyes as well as his professional appetite..."
Poor Richard, completely at the mercy of this man - and now he owes HIM money too! Vholes sees Richard as a cash cow!
- The question in the back of my mind - Will Dickens see his downfall, make an example of him - or will he have pity on him - save him from himself? I'm betting on the latter...
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I have to say, the more Dickens stressed that “Mr. Vholes is a very respectable man,” the less I believed it! LOL! If someone is so respectable, there should be no need to say so over and over again. Respect is earned, not a label one can place upon oneself, or a label that an author can put on a character for the reader.
It sounds as though Richard is paying Mr. Vholes for doing next to nothing. Mr. Vholes claims “we wake it [the Jarndyce suit] up, we air it, we walk it about.” Sounds like paper shuffling to me.
The chapter ends with Mr. Tulkinghorn hinting to Guppy that he knows Guppy has been working with Lady Dedlock. Hmmm…The more I know about Mr. Tulkinghorn, the less I trust him.
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The scene between Richard and Vholes is really frustrating to read. Vholes is the master of evasion, saying things that mean nothing, especially when asked what has actually been DONE. At the same time, he is playing Richard like a fish on a line, has him just where he wants him. Aaarrgghh.
By the way, in the drawing you can see the patient cat Judy mentioned, sitting in front of the mousehole.
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I agree with all of you re Vholes. It's torture to see how he has Richard completely fooled and that part of the ruse is to divide him from the only person who is involved with the case who sees it as a dead end, Mr. Jarndyce. Vholes says, "'This desk is your rock sir!' Mr. Vholes gives it a rap, and it sounds hollow as a coffin. Not to Richard though. There is encouragement in the sound to him. Perhaps, Mr. Vholes knows there is."
That Vholes knows how to play Richard because of Richard's need to have faith that his case will be resolved and that he will get his inheritance. And, as one of you mentioned earlier, it was that weasel, Skimpole, who put Vholes together with Richard!
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Glad you pointed us to that cat, PatH! You know, there are many cats and their prey, birds and mice, in this novel. Too many to be an accident, don't you think? The patient cat, just waiting for the right moment to pounce.
The patient Mr. Vholes, slowwly taking off those black gloves as if he were skinning a cat his hand - he knows he's got Richard just where he wants him.
Why is Richard so impatient? In such a hurry?
Marcie, I thought the kicker was when M. Vholes asks Richard for 20 pounds to cover recent expenses...and Richard writes the draft for it! "All the while, Vholes official cat watches the mouse's hole..."
Do you think Mr. Vholes wants the case to come to an end any time soon when he can keep Richard as a cash cow indefinitely?
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Yes, Joan, that was a great metaphor with the cat watching the mouse's hole. It doesn't seem in the service of any of the lawyers or clerks to end this case.
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Jude was the original noticer of the cat; I only noticed it was also in the picture.
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'Mr Vholes is a very respectable man.' Dickens. To which Laura adds: 'LOL! If someone is so respectable, there should be no need to say so over and over again..
Right on. Doesn't the refrain and the sarcasm sound familiar? Straight out of Shakespeare. Mark Antony and his oration over Caesar's dead body, about his assassins: 'but they are all honorable men.' But Dickens does want the reader to see Vholes as a predator and Richard as his prey.
For the life of me I don't see why Dickens is so hard on the lawyers. And it gets worse. As a profession they are dedicated to unscrambling the complexities of human affairs. Just trying to be helpful. And when the occasion arises, Dickens does acknowledge their help.
The many points of view are a great feature of Dickens's style. Gwyneth Hughes has a few good comments on that in her Guardian article. In the link provided by Marcie in the Drood affair. Many endings were possible.
I can't agree with you, Marcie, when you say that Mr Vholes has Richard completely fooled. Richard did spend many hours in the offices of Kenge and Carboys digging around in the files, reading the documents, getting a handle on things. He found information, presumably, that convinced him his interests were not those of Mr Jarndyce. He needs his own lawyer. Mr Skimpole knows of one. And the rest is history. It's beginning to seem like a replay of the nasty Gridley family legal squable.
We were wondering about Mr Bucket's absence in a law and order matter a few days ago. It turns out he was otherwise occupied in the Drood case, as Mr Grewgious, the guardian of Rosa and Edwin. We can expect him back, surely, for the next crisis.
I thought Hughes did a splendid thing with the Drood mystery. It was fascinating.
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I found chapter 40, National & Domestic, one of the best so far. Especially these two descriptions:
Over Lady Dedlocks picture "a weird shade falls from an old tree, that turns it pale and flutters it,and looks as if a great arm held a veil or hand, watching for an opportunity to draw it over her".
"Sir Dedlock moves among the company, a magnificent refrigerator.."
We find out that Lady D. wishes Tulkinghorn was dead.
And that Mrs. Rouncewells son is running for office against Sir D.
Tulkinghorn tells the story of Esther, without names, and that Esther's Father was a Captain in the Army.
The tension is ratcheting up. Lady D. is under so much pressure that she may snap. Who could blame her?
Hortense joins the other villains with her belly full of hate and almost uncontrollable temper.
Something very bad should happen soon.
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The tension is ratcheting up. Lady D. is under so much pressure that she may snap. Who could blame her?
Hortense joins the other villains with her belly full of hate and almost uncontrollable temper.
Something very bad should happen soon.
I think something bad has already happened, but we, as readers, have not been told of it yet. In Chapter 40, while people are in Chesney Wold's sitting room, "Everybody starts. For a gun is fired close by."
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Question: "What do you think of Dicken's descriptions of what is happening on the national front?"
I had trouble sorting it all out. Here's what I made of the local scene. Can someone tell me if I've got it right?
Sir Leicester is on the side of the Doodlites, against the Coodlites. (This was the hardest for me to be sure of.) Sir L. himself has control over three seats in the House of Commons. One is his own, which is safe. He usually manages to put people of his choice in the other two. The opposing candidates for these are being effectively aided by the campaigning of the Ironmaster, Rouncewell, and his son, and they win three to one. During the election there has been massive bribery by Sir L.'s side, maybe the other side too.
I like the way Dickens describes the bribery:
"Brittannia being much occupied in pocketing Doodle in the form of soverigns, and swallowing Doodle in the form of beer, and swearing herself black in the face that she does neither...."
"...parts of the country on which Doodle is...throwing himself in an auriferous and malty shower...."
It reminds me of a description I read once in the Portland Oregonian about elections in the early days there. On election day you would go into a bar, where there would be a row of shots of whiskey and a stack of silver dollars. You would drink your shot, pick up your coin, and walk out. Nothing was said, but you knew what you were supposed to do. (Don't ask me how you knew which candidate.)
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I think something bad has already happened, but we, as readers, have not been told of it yet. In Chapter 40, while people are in Chesney Wold's sitting room, "Everybody starts. For a gun is fired close by."
If nothing has happened, it's good foreshadowing. Lady D. says "A rat. And they have shot him". The footnote in my book compares this to the killing of Polonius in Hamlet.
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LOL, Jonathan. You may be right, that Detective Bucket has been occupied in the Drood case, as Mr Grewgious. He does get around, and in disguise too!
You also may be right in thinking that Richard came to the conclusion on his own that his interests are not aligned with Mr. Jarndyce's interests. But I believe that Mr. Vholes has been working on the seeds of that thought and expanding on them so that there is no possibility that Richard will be influenced by Jarndyce to drop the case (and deprive Vholes of his steady income from Richard). Vholes definitely has a hold on Richard.
Jude, I too was very struck with Dicken's language describing the house. Your examples are powerful. Also: "But the fire of the sun is dying. Even now the floor is dusky, and shadow slowly mounts the walls, bringing the Dedlocks down like age and death."
Pat, yes. I also was going to remark on Laura's image of the gunshot being heard and Lady Dedlock saying it's "A rat... And they have shot him."
Death is foreshadowed in this chapter.
Pat, I too had trouble with the ins and outs of the national campaigns and elections. What I think I understood from what Tulkinghorn reported is what you have discerned: That Sir Leicester has kept his seat but that the seats for two other candidates that he usually has behind him have gone the "other way" by a 3 to 1 margin, thanks to the campaigning of Rouncewell and his son.
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Pat, yes. I also was going to remark on Laura's image of the gunshot being heard and Lady Dedlock saying it's "A rat... And they have shot him."
Here's doubting Laura again. I don't believe it was a rat that was shot. Maybe I am wrong, but at the least, a rat was shot and it foreshadows a rat-like person being shot.
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Laura...the first person I thought of when I heard the gunshot was Hortense. Remember the French woman who spent time practicing at Mr. George's shooting range? I'm not sure if something bad has happened - yet - but yes, there are omens that something is coming soon. The action is "ratchetting up" several notches, isn't it, Jude? Do you find yourself getting into the plot to the extent that you forget to notice the quality of the writing? Can you imagine writing one of these Installments of three or four chapters each month? (With 10 children underfoot!) While it's true that Dickens is a master at constructing plots, there is so much more going on - the descriptions, the references - Biblical, Shakespearean and of course the history, the social issues, the politics!
PatH, thank you for addressing the question of the elections. I tried to do some research - came out more confused than when I went in. I'll share something from an article that I read - by Karl Marx, no less... It was more complicated than first meets the eye...but what was very clear, the election results did not please Sir Leicester who had spent much money bribing voters. This was not uncommon at the time, but Sir Leicester had spent a lot of money and was not successful getting the other seats. If I'm understanding all this correctly, he was a Tory. "Tories were the guardians of the traditions of Old England. They were suspected of admiring in the British Constitution the eighth wonder of the world; to be laudatores temporis acti,[2] enthusiasts for the throne, the High Church, the privileges and liberties of the British subject."
"They strive to retain forcibly institutions and a political power which are condemned from the very moment at which the rural population found itself outnumbered three times by the population of the towns. And such an attempt must necessarily end with their destruction; it must accelerate and make more acute the social development of England."
The "other side - (the Whigs?) stands in opposition - want reform...social, economic and the court system.
See how the plot is coming together? The question in my mind - how deeply involved is Sir Leicester - other than the obvious? What is his interest in the Jarndyce case - if any? He's against reform - is he content with the slow-moving justice system?
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In Mr. Tulkinghorn's Chambers: Wow! What a battle of giants! Equally matched, worthy of each other's steel, except Tulkinghorn holds all the good cards. (Yes, I know, that's an awful mixed metaphor, but it says what I mean.)
It's interesting to speculate on Tulkinghorn's feelings, if any. He has a certain amount of admiration for Lady Dedlock. "What power this woman has to keep those raging passions down!" he thinks. "The power and force of this woman are astonishing."
But I think maybe he has a bit of protective fondness for Sir Leicester. He says his only interest is the professional one of looking out for Sir L.'s interests, but something about his realization of the importance of Lady D. to sir L. and his willingness to respect it suggests a sympathetic feeling for the man.
Of course, since he also feels that no one should marry because 3/4 of people's troubles result from marriage, I don't think feeling is going to overwhelm him.
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Did you wonder how he found that information about Lady Dedlock's background? What was his source? Was it matching the handwriting on the papers that he forced from M. George? He also knows that Cuppy knows something, don't you think? That could complicate Guppy's plans to drop his inquiry on Esther's behalf, he's already so deeply involved.
PatH, I sensed Mr. Tulkinghorn's admiration for Lady D. too. I'm looking forward to learning more about how the marriage between Lady D. and Sir Leicester came about - and what part Tulkinghorn played in that arrangement all those years ago. How many people knew of Lady D's affair with the Captain - and her pregnancy?
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Laura, I think you are right when you say that the gunshot foreshadows "a rat-like person" being shot, or killed in some way.
JoanP, thanks for doing that research into the Tories and Whigs. I'm confused too. A website at http://www.wardsbookofdays.com/9june.htm says that Dickens was a Tory. Does that make sense?
"Dickens work was essentially political. He was a Tory and stood for the old patriarchal society where benign employers cared for honest servants who knew their place. He detested the Whig party, with their doctrine of Laissez-faire, where spiritual values are ignored in an industrial society, where profit comes first and the abject poor are confined to the workhouse. The gentle Mr Pickwick is a Tory. He supports the Buffs, the colour of the Tories and detests the Blues, the Whig Party. The detestable Scrooge is a forthright Whig. He supports the treadmill, the prisons and the union workhouses established by the Whigs. He would like those who cannot cope in a competitive society to ‘die and reduce the surplus population’. By contrast, the good employer is Mr Fezziwig who spends his spare profits on the care of his workforce. The name Fezziwig stands for ‘fuzzy wig’ as old-fashioned Tories continued to wear wigs well into the Nineteenth Century. Loyal employees like Wemmick enjoy a comfortable life in a pleasant home, while upstarts like Uriah Heap, who try to advance themselves, come to a bad end."
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Pat and JoanP, It seems to me that Tulkinghorn seems to respect the self control that Lady Dedlock has, practically in spite of himself. I got the impression that he was against the marriage. He's certainly putting Sir Leicester ahead of Lady Dedlock but he's retaining his own power over secrets above all. He could have said to Lady D, for Sir L's sake, that he'd do all he could to keep her secret forever, so that Sir L would not be hurt. Instead, he says that he could basically reveal the truth at any time. He's wielding power over Lady D and it's killing her.
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What interesting thoughts on the dramatic developments in the plot. Especially on the adversarial relationship between Mr Tulkinghorn and Lady Dedlock, both heavily burdened with secrets. She with the secrets of her past. He with the secrets of his aristocratic clients. His care is to keep scandal away from Chesney Wold. He's deep into damage control in the Dedlock situation.
Pat suggests it might be interesting 'to speculate on Tulkinghorn's feelings, if any.' He seems to be without feelings. Appropiate enough for a man in his position. Except, as we read long ago, for the prejudices he has about women. How he came to them is a mystery. Disappointment in love? Like Guppy?
A shot has been heard. Is it going to turn into a murder mystery after all? Presumably we've met all the characters in the story. I can't think of one that I would like to see dead. That deserves to die. I can't see see anyone perpetrating such a crime. Will it be Vholes, who is contributing to the ruin of a young life? Not likely. The author has provided him with three daughters and a father as a shield against such a dire event. Many miserable lives in Bleak House, but none that could be seen as driven to that extreme.
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I'M BACK! Thank goodness, and a pox on all greedy hackers! We were so lucky to be able
to get that bug cleared out with our software intact.
I've read all your posts, but I won't try to go back over any of that. You all have been doing
such a great job of pointing out all the goodies. I'll pick up where we are now tomoorow.
It's so good to be here again. I've been in withdrawal! :-X
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Jonathan, it's so interesting that you bring up the point of who "deserves" to die and who might be shielded because of family attachments. We'll see how this plays out.
Babi, welcome back! I'm sorry that your computer was sick but glad that you were able to clean it out so quickly. We have a couple more days to talk about this installment and are looking forward to your thoughts.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illsirleicester.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illsirleicester.jpg)
Sir Leicester Dedlock
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INSTALMENT
XIV
XV |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Apr. 1853
May 1853 |
CHAPTERS
43-46
47-49 |
DISCUSSION DATES
April 21--Apr.25
April 26-Apr.30 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illtom.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illtom.jpg)
Tom-All-Alone's
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Some Topics to Consider
Chapter XLIII Esther's Narrative
1. How did Esther take the revelation of her mother's identity? How do you think you would feel in this situation?
2. What is Richard's relationship now with Mr. Jarndyce? What has caused this change in Richard's attitude?
3. What do you think of Jarndyce's opinion of Skimpole's influence on Richard? Do you agree with Esther or Jarndyce?
4. What does Skimpole's home tell you about him?
5. Why is Esther so upset by the visit from Sir Leicester?
6. What reaction and words of Jarndyce at the end of this chapter cause Esther to love and value him even more?
Chapter XLIV The Letter and the Answer
1. What is the letter, and what is the answer?
2. Why did Esther burn the old, dried bouquet? What does it say to you about her?
Chapter XLV In Trust
1. Richard's lawyer, Mr. Vholes. What would you 'trust' him to do?
2. What outcome would you hope for, or expect, from Esther's mission to Richard?
3. Why do you suppose Esther thought it would be 'so much better' to present herself to Richard unannounced?
4. What portent of the future does Dickens give us in this meeting?
5. What face from the past reappears in Deal? How does Esther's reaction strike you?
Chapter XLVI Stop Him!
1. We see more of Allan Woodcourt's character here. How would you describe him now?
2. Where has Jo been?
3. What did he beg Jenny and Allen to tell Esther?
4. Do we have any further clues as to who unlocked that door in the barn loft and got Jo away?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
Drat! I clicked on the 'compatibility' button and lost my post!
Okay, to repeat (hopefully) I don't think I could say anyone 'deserves' to die, JONATHAN,
but there are a couple of characters I wouldn't be surprised to hear were murdered. Lawyer
Tulkinghorn is certainly one of them. The viciously greedy Smallweed is another.
Dickens is giving us some interesting background in this next chapter, though I'm not sure why.
He refers to Polygon, in Somers Town, full of Spanish refugees. A check of Spanish
history during this period shows a great deal of violent civic conflict. Having driven Napoleon
out, the people apparently turned to fighting one another over various issues. Perhaps it is
simply more of his political commentary, tho' I'm not sure what point he is making.
Speaking of puzzles, I'm going to back up a bit. Does anyone have any idea what the author
is getting out when he refers to a 'wheel going round' with Ixion on it? (pg. 150, my edition)Ixion, I learned, was a king of Thessaly who committed parricide and attempted to rape Hera and was punished by Zeus by being bound to a perpetually revolving wheel in Hades. How does
this connect to the story? Am I being really dense, here? I wonder if I can find that particular
page in the on-line copy? I need to re-read that.
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Vholes has said "A good deal is doing, sir. We have put our shoulders to the wheel, Mr. Carstone, and the wheel is going round."
Richard snaps back at him "Yes, with Ixion on it."
I think he is complaining that the wheel is going to go around forever without getting anywhere.
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My book has a footnote describing the Polygon as a ring of houses built in the late 18th century. Here's more:
Polygon (http://timetravelexplorer.com/blog/post/2011/04/19/The-Polygon-where-has-it-gone.aspx)
I couldn't get those pictures with buttons to do anything.
It was on the edge of things when built, but not when Skimpole lived there. Dickens himself lived there in the 1820s.
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Did you wonder how he found that information about Lady Dedlock's background?
Yes, JoanP, I do wonder and spent part of yesterday afternoon searching backwards to see if I could find some missed clues. We all know he noticed Lady D's reaction when he first brought some papers that Nemo had copied to the Dedlock home. That's what started him investigating. But who spilled the beans -- Jo didn't know about any backgrounds, nor Snagsby, Guppy? The unlikable Tulkinghorn has a way of injecting himself into someone and make them squirm or bend to his will. The paper Mr. George turned over? I didn't think that was personal info about Hawdon. Did Tulkinghorn sneak anything from Nemo's portmanteau?
So many questions, so few answers. Where is Jo?
Tulkinghorn does not have feelings. And what he did in front of all the Dedlock cousins and guests was plain outright cruelty.
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Pedln, the paper that Mr. George had to turn over to Tulkinghorn was only a sample of Captain Hawdon's handwriting. For Tulkinghorn to have obtained the story of Lady Dedlock's past, he must have had his hands on those letters, don't you think? When would he have seen them - before or after the "spontaneous combustion" scene?
Pat suggests it might be interesting to speculate on Tulkinghorn's feelings, if he has any. Pedln thinks he doesn't appear to have any feelings. But everyone has feelings, don't they? ...Something motivates Tulkinghorn. And Jonathan wonders if he's been disappointed in love. I wonder if Dickens will reveal this. He tells so much about everyone else's background, I can't believe he'd omit Tulkinghorn's. This fierce protection of Sir Dedlock and the Dedlock name - where does this come from? At first I thought that he once had feelings for Lady Dedlock - now I'm doubting that.
I'm finding Tulk to be the most interesting character in the book. How about you? I hope he will be around at the end - although there are a number of characters who would be happy to see him go - and all his secrets with him. Dickens has managed to sympathize with nearly all of his characters - with the exception of Tulkinghorn and those Skimpoles...the whole lot of them! Perhaps they will prove to be expendable.
Wait - I forgot to mention Hortense. She's baaaack. Loved the scene, the dialog between Tulkinghorn and Hortense. How important will she be?
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I appreciate everyone’s different opinions on the scenes between Mr. Tulkinghorn and Lady Dedlock. I was of the opinion that he was being a jerk and holding the information he has over her, ready to blackmail her with it. Your opinions gave me some different ways of looking at what was going on, which is why I like discussing this book with you all so much.
As usual, as it seems there is something confusing in each section, I couldn’t exactly follow the political “stuff.” However, I just read the Sparks Notes summary and was good to go! LOL! I am convinced that Dickens does not expect his reader to completely understand everything he wrote. After all, who could know all the Bible verses and mythology he alluded to in the book!
I’m heading outside to read the next installment, enjoying the sunshine before a lot of rain moves up the East Coast.
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'He tells so much about everyone else's background, I can't believe he'd omit Tulkinghorn's...the most interesting character in the book.'
Interesting comments, JoanP, about Tulkinghorn. And we are all wondering how he got to know so much about Lady Dedlock, and why the story he tells in the drawing room at Chesney Wold. Along the way, I don't remember the page, we were told that he had misgivings about Sir Leicester marrying Lady D. Did he know something then about her. But that's the thing about Mr T. He is too secretive. Even the author seems friustrated at his inability to get at the man's character. Dickens draws on his prejudices about the legal profession to supply the answers, it seems. I'm amazed at the things he says that put Mr T into a bad light. He does give Tulkinghorn feelings, but they are all negative. I believe he is disappointed that he can't get Lady D to accept his professional services in finding a solution to a looming scandal. Of course we've been told several times that women only mean trouble. If anything should happen to him we know where to look. The way things are going it's easy to spot the prime suspect...that crazy French woman. Just can't understand the English way of things.
Could Richard get angry enough to say, give me a gun? To stop the wheel.
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Of course, Lady D finds herself in a moral quandary, doesn't she? It's not a legal problem for her. She is in a perilous situation.
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Babi, I'm sorry you lost the post you were composing. I don't know if it would have still been there if you clicked the Back arrow on your browser. Those are very good questions.
I'm in agreement with Pat, that the reference to the "wheel going round" with Ixion on it is a reference to the ongoing case of Jarndyce and Jarndyce which goes round and round down through the years and never is advanced.
Pat, thanks for the link to Polygon (http://timetravelexplorer.com/blog/post/2011/04/19/The-Polygon-where-has-it-gone.aspx). It says on that page that:
"Two of the most famous residents of the Polygon were William Godwin and his wife Mary Wollstonecraft, who died giving birth to Mary Shelley, the author of Frankenstein. Another former Polygoner was Charles Dickens, who lived at No 17 in the 1820s shortly after his father, John Dickens, was released from debtors prison. Dickens later made the Polygon a home for his 'Bleak House' character Harold Skimpole, and he in turn may well have been modelled on Godwin."
Pedln and JoanP, Regarding how Tulkinghorn found out about the relationship between Lady Dedlock (before she was married) and Captain Hawdon, I'm putting together the following:
Guppy told Lady D that Krook had a packet of letters which he was going to try to get.
Tulkinghorn has been trying to get a sample of Captain Hawdon's handwriting (which we know Lady D recognized when Tulkinghorn brought a legal document copied by "Nemo"). Why does he want to confirm that Captain Hawdon was, in fact, "Nemo"?
I'm making the leap that Tulkinghorn must have gotten his hands on the packet of letters and that the letters implicate Hawdon and Lady D in an affair.
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We have now read 67% of the book according to my Kindle.
We can put most of the main characters in one of three categories. I did so (You may or may not agree with me). This helps me see the book in a certain light and takes away some of the tension as to what will happen and to whom.
Here are my lists:
Good Guys: Esther,Ada, John Jarndyce,Detective Bucket, Caddy and Allen Woodcourt
Bad Guys:Tolkinghorn, Vholes, Hortense,Skimpole and Smallweed.
Not in a clear category:LadyDedlock,Richard, Guppy (and Weevil),Mrs. Rouncewell, George Rouncewell.
Still guessing:Lord Dedlock,Mr &Mrs. Snagsby,Mathew Bagnet.
If this is like other mysteries, then one of the bad guys will be doing something (a murder probably) to one of the good or uncategorized folk. Now I (we) have to wait patiently to see who does what to whom. (Is my grammar correct?)
Did I calm anyone but myself with this summary?
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Laura, re Tulkinghorn's hold over people. Like you, I do think that he's not merely doing his duty to protect his employer, Sir L. He goes out of his way, and involves a lot of people, to dig out the truth. Then, he doesn't just keep it to himself. He threatens Lady D with exposure in front of the group of people at Sir L's house. Pedln, I too would have said he didn't have any feelings but JoanP, you are making me think more, when you say everyone has some feelings. Jonathan surmises that "Dickens draws on his prejudices about the legal profession to supply the answers, it seems." And Jonathan also points out that Tulkinghorn has a terrible opinion of women or marriage. He's always lurking in the background and never part of the "society" at Sir L's house. It's as if he's a fixture that Sir L. acknowledges as useful but doesn't have any affection for. They don't always remember that he is in the room. Lady D has never gotten along with Tulkinghorn. Does Tulkinghorn resent her? Could it be that he even resents Sir L, who is not as smart as Tulkinghorn but has a higher place in society? Whatever his reasons, he does seem cold blooded and heartless toward those from whom he wants to learn secrets.
It also seems that Tulkinghorn has a big role to play in the book. He's the one behind digging out the biggest secret in the novel. Does that make him the evil antagonist?
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Babi - you're quoting from Chapter XXXIX- the one called Attorney and Client...Here's a link to that chapter so you can read it again -
http://www.online-literature.com/dickens/bleakhouse/40/
Pat quoted the part that relates to the novel
Vholes has said "A good deal is doing, sir. We have put our shoulders to the wheel, Mr. Carstone, and the wheel is going round."
Richard snaps back at him "Yes, with Ixion on it."
I think he is complaining that the wheel is going to go around forever without getting anywhere. And I think he's right! Richard is blinded by the prospect of earning a lot of money - except he needs the money immediately!
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Jude - yes, thank you - calming to see them grouped this way. I think I'd put Guppy and Mr. Snagsby in the good guy column, simply because I don't think them mean to harm anyone - although somehow they have become implicated. . I guess they belong in a gray area - can you make a third category?
Tulkinghorn - is a bad, bad guy. Marcie sees him with "a big role to play in the book." "He's the one behind digging out the biggest secret in the novel."
A good question, Marcie - "Does that make him the evil antagonist?"
All the signs and omens are indicating that he is going to be knocked off - not any of the good guys. Does the evil protagonist get killed when the story is only 67% over?
. If it is to be Tulkinghorn, I'm back to the list to see if there are any likely suspects. Hortense - a little too obvious. Skimpole? Nah, after reading the next installment, I'm convinced that he really is a child. Sir Leicester? Hmmm
Things are beginning to pick up - I think we need a reason to call Bucket into the picture...like a murder. I'll be disappointed if its Tulkinghorn - but he seems the obvious - everyone hates him, everyone has a motive. I just found a copy of the next installment on my doorstep!
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Jude, I missed your post. What a great idea to try to sort out the characters that way.
Your categories make me wonder who the characters are that have practiced the most "good"? Here are my nominations:
John Jarndyce: He is benefactor to many people.
Allen Woodcourt: He has dedicated himself to a life of service to the health of others. He goes out of his way to treat the whole patient, as exemplified by his care of Miss Flite.
Esther: Her goal in life is to do good and be of service to others. Everyone who gives an opinion of her seems to care for her, or at least recognize her goodness.
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Well it took me all week - what a slog but I am finally caught up - I must say though I was feeling the depths of astonished emptiness as if falling into a black hole that never ends when I read the end of chapter XXX - the betrayal - her own sister - never to have had the chance to hold alive your own child much less have the opportunity to decide the sacrifice it would take to raise and love your own child -
Despair is too mild - Bleak is too tame -
I was annoyed reading the next chapter about Caddy's wedding - it is as if nothing the others do in the story matter - as she says "I must travel the dark road alone, and it will lead me where it will." She is so isolated in her grief and bitter betrayal that she can not even let on to Esther when she tells her what happened - she simply tells Esther, as the elegant and noble lady she is, that she did not know that her child was living. How could she tell Esther of her sister's, [Esther's guardian] secret betrayal.
Her sister is dead so she cannot even confront her - Lady Deadlock reminds me of a brave and noble women on the floor of Caesar's Colosseum being devoured by the lions.
Tulkinghorn like Vholes are like Paper Moons and now that Tulkinghorn has uncovered for us another part of Lady Deadlock's story he can leave the stage after he uses his courtroom skill to stay Lady Deadlock and protect his client Leicester Deadlock -
We still only have a 'public' view, a con man's view nosed out of Nemo, captain in the army, Captain James Hawdon and his love for Lady Deadlock who may have been a lady of the evening. If the captain was such a cad I cannot imagine him being dependent on copying legal papers for his money or dependent on drugs. And if it were a night in passing for them I cannot imagine Lady Deadlock paying Jo to see where he lay after death.
I see this entire story with all its characters whirling like bits and pieces, roofs, lumber, cows and vehicles in a tornado around the wounded and desolate Lady Deadlock so that even the birth of her child was an event that was ripped from her control. Her only act in life may have been loving a captain for a time and becoming pregnant and then all those years later opening her wounded heart to her daughter - her life as a Deadlock seems to be about looking exquisite and acting like a beautiful mannequin. We finally get a view of her pain described in this chapter that has Tulkinghorn spilling the story and talking her into a life of supper for the lions.
Still, we do not know how Leicester Deadlock came into the picture - we can only imagine that the Deadlocks were a married couple when Lady Deadlock gave birth and the sister took matters into her own hands and then with a dark mind made sure the child was brought up to know she was a blight on her family.
Guppy bless his heart is as weak as water but at least he is real, reacting in shear panic to the change in Esther after her illness and honoring his word about no longer providing evidence to either Esther or Lady Deadlock.
As to Krook's death - the chapter refers to the build up and spewing of creosote on their sleeves and its yellow dripping on the outside of the house. Wood creosote goes from clear to yellow and tar creosote from coal starts as an amber color and goes to black. Creosote burns upwards to just over 500 degrees Fahrenheit. Enclosed cremations are usually between 900 degrees and 1400 degrees however outdoor cremations are around 500 degrees - it does not seem plausible that even if he was coated with creosote which can spark into a flame very very easily [chimney fires burn down 100s of homes every year] that he could have burned without setting the room on fire especially, with all the bits of paper and rags about. But I think Dickens included all the references to creosote to give a possible explanation to those who did not buy the concept of spontaneous combustion.
The desolation that Ada expresses to Esther during her illness only reminded me of the words of desolation Lady Deadlock must have held in her heart and thoughts.
Another thought when catching up reading the18 chapters, I thought that either a few of our US Senators of late either had read and were quoting Skimpole's tirade about Jo and his 'kind' when Jo needed care or they need to read Bleak House.
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I wonder if Richards sees himself as Ixion, miserably punished by the gods?
I could see why he might feel that way.
Richard does have some insight into himself. ‘Call it madness, and I tell you I can’t help it now, and can’t be sane. But it is no such thing; it is the one object I have to pursue. It is a pity I ever was prevailed upon to turn out of my road for any other. It would be wisdom to abandon it now, after all the time, anxiety, and pains I have bestowed upon it! ‘
In spite of all this, Esther still remember the Richard he once was. “Dear Richard! He was ever the same to me. Down to — ah, poor poor fellow! — to the end, he never received me but with something of his old merry boyish manner." Richard, perhaps more than Lady Dedlock,
is the truly tragic character in this story.
I fully agree with most of your sorting, JUDE. I do think Mrs. Rouncewell belongs
in with the 'good guys'. And George Rouncewell seems an honorable man, well-loved
by his friends. That says 'good guy' to me.
(Thank you for taking the trouble to find that page for me, JOANP. You are the most helpful
lady!)
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Lady Dedlock's affair must have taken place before her marriage to Sir Leicester. Tulkinghorn's anonymous story says "she had in early life been engaged to marry a young rake". So she was unmarried, and probably quite young. Whether or not Hawdon was serious about it, I'm sure she was; she was engaged to him. She is of the same social class as Jarndyce and Boythorn--they moved in the same circles--and she would not take such things lightly. When she married Sir Leicester, she hid her past from him, but that was the only dishonorable thing she did. She was free of encumbrances (or thought she was). He loved her. We aren't told whether she loves him, but she has been a good wife to him, making him happy and being the center of his life.
Why did her sister hide the child's existence from her? I'm guessing to preserve the family from scandal. Her buttoned up morality would see that as the greatest evil of all, never mind the damage done to three lives.
What was Hawdon like, and why did she fall in love with him? His ex army friends think he was an unprincipled schemer, but they are still loyal to him. Maybe he was one of those men with so much personal charm you can't help liking them.
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Pat you must have read further than I have - but the idea Hawdon was a rake is from Tulkinghorn and he has his socially acceptable opinion of people - at the time if they were not married Hawdon would be called a rake by society and she would be a loose women if not a prostitute. But then maybe there is more here and I just need to read where you found this about Hawdon's army buddies.
If this happened before her marriage to Leicester Deadlock all the more of a betrayal by her sister - she may have decided to raise her daughter even if it meant leaving England or living in poverty. Did not sound like the sister lived in comfortable circumstances - not as poor as the bricklayers but it did not sound as comfortable as Boythorn so that Lady Deadlock may have been able to manage that lifestyle - but regardless she should have had a choice - it was her child - cannot get past that her child was taken without her even knowing. I should find the quote again but as I remember the sister stopped all contact with Lady Deadlock.
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The stuff about the army buddies comes from way back, mostly from the time when George is having trouble with Smallweed about his debts. Don't remember the details, but there is talk of how Hawdon took them all in and cheated them, but George is still unwilling to give up a sample of Hawdon's handwriting for fear it will harm H. (even though he thinks H. is dead) and expresses loyalty to H., who was his commanding officer.
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aha -thanks - need to go back and find that...
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Barb, I like your description of events and characters swirling around one as if in a tornado. I feel that way too, in fact I've probably read most of the chapters 3 or 4 times through going back to get things straight.
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JUde, thanks for the character rankings -- a good idea. I think I'd probably move Matthew Bagnet up to the good guys.
PatH, I've been going back trying to find out more about Hawdon. The scheming reference comes from Old Smallweed--
"Besides, he had taken us in. He owed us immense sums all round. I would sooner have strangled him than had no return. If I sit here thinking of him," snarls the old man, holding up his impotent ten fingers, "I want to strangle him now."
'course my feelings here are that Smallweed deserves every bad move that comes to him.
"I don't need to be told," [said George, speaking with Smallweed] "that he carried on heavily and went to ruin. I have been at his right hand many a day when he was charging upon ruin full-gallop. I was with him when he was sick and well, rich and poor. . . . he had been young, hopeful, and handsome in the days gone by”
Mr. Guppy casts up his eyes at the portrait of Lady Dedlock over the mantelshelf
-- when waiting with Weevle in Nemo’s old room. No doubt Tulkinghorn saw that same picture on the night Nemo died. Tulkinghorn already knows that it was Lady Dedlock that sought out Jo to show her where Nemo was buried. And if Guppy could find out that Esther Summerson was actually Esther Hawdon, no doubt Tulkinghorn could too.
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Our May book club online is "Women in Greek Drama": reading three Greek plays featuring strong women. Find out why these women have been famous in literature for two thousand years. Join us for the pre-discussion here:
http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=3156.0
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I can't remember reading a novel in which past, present and future were so cunningly interwoven as in this one. And I really enjoy reading the great commentary on the unfolding of the touching human drama, or dramas, in Bleak House.
What a great sacrifice the sister made to allow Honoria to get on with her promising life. What a great burden for Esther's little heart to be constantly reminded it would have been better had she never been born. The haughty Lady Dedlock living a lie for so many years.
'Did I calm anyone but myself with this summary?' Jude, 809. Yes, your soothing question did smooth my ruffled feathers. I'm in violent disagreement about several characters.
'If it is to be Tulkinghorn....we need to call Bucket into the picture.' It won't be him, JoanP. Mr Tulkinghorn already enjoys Mr Bucket's protection, having been called in after the threats on Mr T's life by Mr Gridley. Buckley would naturally keep all Mr T's contacts under surveillance.
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On the other hand, a woman scorned...hell hath no fury like her. Not likely to allow a police detective to get in her way.
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Pedln, thanks for tracking down those references--no easy job.
The picture of Lady D. would not have been in the room when it was Nemo's. It was part of Weevle/Jobling's Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty, which he put up when he moved in.
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Didn't Tulkinghorn come in the room when Guppy and Weaver were clearing out just as Guppy took that particular picture off the wall - no words in the book that said Tulkinghorn saw the picture but you have to wonder.
OH Jonathan the haughty Lady Deadlock - sorry but to hold first to her station that god knows how she got there with the background that Dickens is alluding and then to her pain - she is like an open wound - she needs to be perfect - it is her only shield - and in that Tulkinghorn is correct that she would not hurt Leicester Deadlock - OH OH OH I grieve at your judgment of her and thinking you probably mis-understand others like her today...
Dickens is sure allowing this French Character to go over the top expressing anger and wanting her form of justice - is she his emblem character of the French Revolution or the traditional English view of the French that allows the English to be seen in a superior light.
Having read some of Thakeray's Christmas stories I was shocked at how openly he puts down the Irish and other nationalities where as his friend Dickens does not usually run in that direction but I wonder if Hortense is an exception as she is called the foreign women.
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I'm trying to find the place in the book where we learn that Lady Dedlock thought that Captain Hawdon was lost at sea. That seems like the excuse she had for not telling Sir Leicester about her affair with Hawdon before their marriage. Since she thought that her lover and child were dead, why bring it up.
I think that the reason Lady L's sister didn't tell her about the birth and decided to raise the child in secret could have been to protect the family name from disgrace as much as to protect her sister. I don't know if we'll find out whether her sister cared about Lady L at all. She certainly had a very strict code of morality. She gave up her own relationship with Boythorn to raise Esther.
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Still a third of the book to go! Who knows what else is in store for us!
I agree with your categorization of characters, Jude. Marcie, I would agree that Mr. Tulkinghorn is the evil antagonist. Barbara, I liked your logical analysis of spontaneous combustion.
What I liked best about this installment was that the web of characters is being tied together in new ways. Mr. Woodcourt appears again, as does Jo, and one of the bricklayers’ wives. It’s nice to revisit some of the same characters repeatedly after being introduced to new ones for so much of the book.
I was surprised to read the Mr. Jarmdyce didn’t think Mr. Skimpole meant anything, let alone any harm, by introducing Richard to Mr. Vholes. Mr. Skimpole is playing an elaborate game in which he has convinced himself and others that he is incapable of being an adult. I think it is a case of people enabling his behavior. I am beginning to find the whole situation with Skimpole to be ridiculous. If you combine Richard, with his money issues, Skimpole, with his money issues, and Vholes, who is looking to make money, the result cannot be good.
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It was Smallweed who claimed Hawdon and cheated them all, PAT. George didn't feel that
way. I got the impression Smallweed is furious because Hawdon died and left his debt to
Smallweed unpaid.
oH, beautiful. I see PEDLN has found and quoted the relevant passage. Thanks, PEDLN!
JONATHAN, you are too kind. Lady Dedlock's sister did not sacrifice herself so that
lady could 'get on' with her life. She was mortified about her sister's "shame" and
acted to save the family reputation. She cut her sister off completely, and IMO thought
she deserved to suffer.
I had some similar thoughts about Dickens description of Hortense, BARB. I think it
does reflect a common British view of the French temperament.
Dickens gives us a lovely description of the town of Deal, the harbor and the ships.
It does not appear to be relevant to the story. I suppose he simply likes the place and
wanted to share it. Now he uses this as the site to re-introduce Allan Woodcourt to the
story. And as Laura notes, Jo emerges again. He has returned to ‘Tom All-Alone’. And who has found him but Jenny and Alan Woodcourt. So many threads, so intricately interwoven.
We already knew someone must have had a hand in getting Jo out of the Jarndyce barn loft.
But who is still a mystery. The thing is, Jo was taken to a hospital, and I can’t see Skimpole
caring in the least whether Jo got care, so long as he was gone. So what do we think now?
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We already knew someone must have had a hand in getting Jo out of the Jarndyce barn loft.
But who is still a mystery. The thing is, Jo was taken to a hospital, and I can’t see Skimpole
caring in the least whether Jo got care, so long as he was gone. So what do we think now?
Based on Jo talking at the end of Chapter 46, I have a complete guess --- Rev. Chadband.
The quote I referred to is:
"You move on," he ses. "Don't let me ever see you nowheres within forty miles of London, or you'll repent it."
Seeing the word repent made me think of the only religious figure --- Rev. Chadband. I haven't gone back to see what he was doing at that time in the book to know if my guess is even plausible!
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'She was mortified about her sister's "shame" and
acted to save the family reputation.'
Thanks, Babi. It's more complicated than I thought. Her sister's 'sin' kept her from marrying herself, (Boythorn) but allowed her sister to marry Sir Leicester. The detail in the book is just too dense. It's easy for the characters to be misunderstood. Skimpole least of all. Seeing him, along with Richard and Mr Vholes as a machinating trio is just too funny. Should we add Mr Smallweed to the group. One theme of the book is certainly learning to live with poverty. We now learn why Skimpole is always looking for a home away from home.
Was this book really planned and worked out in advance, or is it a marvellous example of spontaneous creation? Or is it just the fog?
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Her sister's 'sin' kept her from marrying herself, (Boythorn) but allowed her sister to marry Sir Leicester.
We still do not know if Lady Deadlock was pregnant when she married and had the baby in secret or if this all took place before she married Leicester Deadlock - to have the baby with public knowledge would have been a huge, horrible no-no back in those days - granted but, then why would Miss Barbary secretly from the mother, her own sister, that evidently for Miss Barbary sibling love is not as strong as her moral righteousness, take matters into her own hands without even confirming with her sister - she robs her sister of choice, her ability to give love by either raising the child or giving the child up for a better life and she robs her sister of her baby no different than these weirdos today who take babies from mothers -
How could she marry anyone and keep her secret betrayal - sure she could pass the baby off as someone she adopted but then she could not heap on the child the pounding guilt of being a shame to her mother and father. How does someone become so vindictive - they may be characters in a story but they are too close to what we know is real and the question of evil is never satisfied for most of us. Where and how does evil come about? The church says a devil - others say upbringing or want - still others say childhood trauma - but somehow, after birth not just choices that end up negatively affecting others but choices that reach down into the being of someone or even taking their life - where does that come from? And sicker yet, is how as onlookers we cannot cope so we try to justify evil - even calling it just.
I am looking at the character Jo and his open antagonist Skimpole. Jo reminds me of Ignorance and Want from the Christmas Carol all rolled into one - but more - do not know if that was Dickens plan however, the characters in Bleak House show us how easily the plight of the poor, with few opportunities to see a life other than through the eyes of want and ignorance, are not so much caste aside as Skimpole recommends but are superfluous to what seems more important to the life as described for each character.
The characters think of their own wants and needs without a true understanding of how they ignore if not negatively affect those who are on the lowest rung of the economic ladder and who can only view the world through their limited understanding. I may be a romantic but I really think there are more folks who do not realize the damage they create, both the poor and the rest of us because we must all move along - we all pay a fiddler. Folks like the Deadlocks even if they do help have no clue and as Lady Deadlock gave Jo a coin she had no awareness of how others would view someone like Jo having that much money.
Is that part of it - we have no conception of what it is like to live with want and ignorance - we can guess but are we always judging others based on our own values and moral lifestyle - hmmm this book has me by the tail - sorry folks but maybe some of you are asking similar questions.
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Barbara, it seems that once Lady Dedlock married Sir Leicester, they became inseparable in their residence and travels. I don't see her being pregnant and hiding it from Sir L. It seems that she must have had the baby (and thought it died) before she was married. It would make sense that her sister would be among the only people to witness the birth since her affair and the birth of her baby must not be made public.
Sir Leicester doesn't know of the affair or the birth of the child (dead or alive).
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I do see that Sir Leicester does not know but I still do not know when Esther was born - was it before or after her marriage - given her travels she could easily have used an excuse to go to France for the last 6 weeks and some women do not show that much till the last 2 months.
Somehow I cannot go back and re-read so much of this book to find it but wasn't Captain Hawdon thought to have been lost at sea - we still do not know how or when Sir Leicester meets and marries Honoria Barbary, later Lady Deadlock. I could be wrong as the story I hope unfolds but I just cannot imagine Lady Deadlock having an affair after her marriage. The question is she in the early stages of pregnancy or is the birth and death of the father in her past when she meets Sir Leicester.
Regardless, even with all the scandal and shame we could imagine heaped on her head the secret keeping and raising of Esther was beyond the pale. They both should have been part of the decision - Miss Barbary had to have known she did wrong or else she would not have cut off her sister Honoria Deadlock never seeing or communicating with her again nor would she have so shamed that little girl if she was raising her out of protection for Honoria.
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When Lady Dedlock conceived and then "lost" that child is still very much a mystery. I agree, Barbara, I don't believe she had an affair after her marriage.
Somehow I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Sir Leicester knows the "secret", Marcie - or even to learn that Sir Leicester knew the secret at the time he married Lady Dedlock. But that's my own suspicion - it occurred to me after reading the strange way he's acting in Chapter XLIII -
He turns up unexpected at Bleak House - just happened to be on the way from Lincolnshire, to apologize for not inviting them to Chesney Wold when they were visiting Boythorne. He goes on to say that he regretted Mr. Skimpole had been turned away from his home when he came to examine the family pictures. ((Am I forgetting something? Did we read that Skimpole had made this visit?)) Why this sudden interest in John Jarndyce and his wards? Did he know John Jarndyce? Or is he only interested in him now that he has learned that Jarndyce knew Lady D in the past?
The east winds are blowing stronger...
I don't think Mr. Tulkinghorn gave him any of this information. He wants to keep him in the dark. Do you suppose the loyal Mrs. Rouncewell keeps him informed?
Jude, I'm interested to hear if your opinion of Mr. Skimpole has changed since this new installment - now that we have visited his home, met his family? Is he really just a child, unaccountable for his actions - as John Jarndyce persisits in seeing him? What do you think blinds Jarndyce to his faults? Esther, and even Ada are beginning to see him as a poor influence on Richard.
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Joan P
I put Skimpole in the "Bad Guys" category in my post on this page.
If we had any doubts whatsoever about Skimpole being what is known in Yiddish as a" Schnorrer".
A person who lives off of others , never giving back and always looking for more people he can "Schnorr" from.
In XLIII we see how horrible Skimpole really is.
Skimpole compares money to Moorish, "Which I don't understand".
Esther sees through him. She thinks:"the more I see of him the less agreeable it wasto think of him having anything to do with anyone for whom I care".
I wonder if she and John will ever discuss this matter, and if they do how will it affect their relationship?
Skimpole has taught his daughters well. As the guests leave the girls say :"Live your practical
wisdom, and let us live upon you!".
Although all the girls live in the house and the oldest with her husband and two children, Skimpoles own apartment was a palace compared to the rest of the house.
Dickens sure is pouring it on thick about Skimpole. Will we finally find out what his hold is over John Jardyce?
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Maybe, LAURA, but I don't remember Rev. Chadband being anywhere around when all this
took place. I do remember Jo having problems with the local constable always telling
him to 'move on'.
I agree with those of you who believe Lady Dedlock did not have her affair after her
marriage. Wasn't she described as quite young and in love with a dashing young officer?
It happens all the time. But in her time, and her social group. the discovery that she
was pregnant and her lover missing was a catastrophe. Secrecy was all-important.
Oh, yes, JUDE! A 'schnorrer', is it. Love it. Know hereabouts as a 'moocher'. I really
think John Jarndyce needs to believe Skimpole is a 'child', simply as a relief and
contrast to all the avarice and cycnicism he sees in the world.
Dickens is again making his points about society’s notions of charity. Much speechmaking and proposals both in and out of Parliament. What is to be done with the poor, who are an unpleasant and disturbing spectacle, to be sure. “In the midst of which dust and noise, there is but one thing perfectly clear, to wit, that Tom only may and can, or shall and will, be reclaimed according to somebody’s theory but nobody’s practice. And in the hopeful mentime, Tom goes to perdition head foremost in his old determined spirit.”
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"What is to be done with the poor, who are an unpleasant and disturbing spectacle, to be sure."
Good morning, Babi! Dickens makes an important point here, doesn't he? I think he'll end the story with consideration for the poor one way or another. How did the Beatitude go? "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven." Hmmm
Just out of curiosity, I went to the list of our Unsolved Mysteries - to see how we are doing. We're reading the 16th installment (out of 20) and the only thing that's clear - Lady D. is Esther's mother. Are we 100% certain that Captain Hawdon is her father?
One question that caught my eye -
"What was in the document that Mr. Tulkinghorn was reading, while Sir Leicester was dozing, that made Lady Dedlock faint? " She recognized the handwriting, so we've assumed it was Captain Hawdon's. But do we have any idea what was in that document? That's still a question - and the man has supposedly died!
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Another question -- was Dickens trying to elicit sympathy for Skimple...even a little bit, when he describes his home - this man who has not two pence in his pocket - has a piano, a table covered with spongecake, hothouse nectarines, grapes...a bottle of wine" to offer his guests. "This is his birdcage."
He is described as a caged singing bird. How did you understand this image?
Will we finally find out what his hold is over John Jardyce?" Jude Right now, to me, John Jarndyce and Sir Leicester are the two biggest mysteries. I think that once Dickens pulls these two from the shadows, we'll have the story we've been waiting for. I still don't understand why Jarndyce is pretending to be blind to Skimpole's faults. He's got to be pretending, don't you think? Otherwise he seems to be a very insightful man. I suspect that Jarndyce sits on a pile of secrets - including the details of Esther's parentage.
I agree with Babi - I don't think the Reverend had anything to do with "kidnapping" Jo from the barn. The clue is at the end of this Installment. It was not Mr. Tulkinghorn, was he behind it? What hold does he have over this man to get him to do his will? Or maybe Jo was carried away to the horsepittle to help him, to protect him from Mr. T?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illnewmeaning.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illnewmeaning.jpg)
A New Meaning in the Roman
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
XV
XVI |
DATE of PUBLICATION
May. 1853
June 1853 |
CHAPTERS
47-49
50-53 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Apr. 26-Apr. 30
May 1- May 5 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illfriendlybucket.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illfriendlybucket.jpg)
Friendly Behaviour of Mr. Bucket
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
Chapter XLVII Jo's Will
1. Was it just a coincidence that that Allan Woodcourt took Jo to Miss Flite's and then to Mr. George's shooting range for his last days, the same path Gridley followed?
2. Why does Mr. George risk taking Jo in? And why does Allan Woodcourt send for John Jarndyce?
3. What did you understand by the title of the first chapter of this Installment: Jo's Will?
4. How does the doctor show that he regards Jo as more than a sick animal in need of comfort?
5. "Dead your majesty, lords and gentlemen. Right/Wrong Reverends. Dying thus around us everyday" Is Dickens' message to his readers clear enough?.
Chapter XLVIII Closing In
1. Lady Dedlock, her pride beaten down, ready to flee. But where will she go? Do you understand why she is sending Rosa away at this time?
2. Why does Sir Leceister speak in favor of keeping Rosa at Chesney Wold, while Mr. Rouncewell speaks in favor of dismissing her from the Dedlock patronage? An interesting turn of events!
3. Why does M. Tuklinghorn disapprove of Lady Dedlock's decision? How does this violate their agreement? Do you believe he really intends to "undeceive" Sir Leceister?
4. Do you know how far it is from Chesney Wold to Lincoln's Inn on foot? How long did it take Mr. Tulkinghorn to get home, for example? Did he walk? Where has Lady Dedlock gone on foot?
5. What was that Roman on the ceiling, a paralyzed dumb witness, pointing at? Can you find Dickens' exact words?
Chapter XLIX Dutiful Friendship
1. Mrs. Bagnet's happy birthday celebration. Where did Mr. George find the money to get her that beautiful brooch?
2. Do you believe that Detective Bucket showed up at the Bagnets' looking for a wiollencellar or did he know that Mr. George would be there?
3. When did you become aware that the detective had something else on his mind, other than wiollencellars?
4. A good question - "What is public life without private ties?" Do you think this is Dickens asking? Does Bucket seem to have both?
5. Does Bucket seem to have a good case against Mr. George? Do you think he'd try to get the reward if he believed there was a chance George was innocent?.
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Excerpt from Babi's quote -
only may and can, or shall and will, be reclaimed according to somebody’s theory but nobody’s practice.
sounds like the first words of that sentence could be the Law, the Chancery or even either Vholes or Tulkinghorn. We say the dead are bodies with the soul gone elsewhere and that is how I see the description by Dickens of the practice of the law and the lawyers - although, I do not see Guppy falling into this description - He may not be the noblest but he does show feelings and depth that is not covered in avarice or secrets.
I thought I read that it was Bucket who helped Jo escape - I did not go back and find the sentence nor did I go back and see who was at Bleak House when Jo was brought from the Bricklayer's cottage. Something about Bucket getting Jo to a hospital and then urging him to move on out of London and that was why Jo was slipping along trying not to be seen when he was with Doc Woodcourt.
Just thought sounds like the homeless today - they need to slip along and not be seen in many cities where the police will move them along and suggest they leave town.
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Well, we know the person who took Jo away was a man anyway, because at the end of the installment, Jo says he won’t leave the resting/hiding place that Mr. Woodcourt finds for him, “not unless I wos to see him a-coming, sir.” I’m sure the identity of the man will be revealed yet.
Back to Chapter 44, The Letter and the Answer. The letter asked Esther, would she “be the mistress of Bleak House?” I didn’t find the letter suggesting the proposal/wedding of Esther and Mr. Jarndyce to be that odd, but I found the phrase, “be the mistress of Bleak House” to be odd. On one hand, it does make the title of the book seem more appropriate to me. I was wondering why the book was called the Bleak House when it didn’t seem to be as much a focal point as I expected it to be. However, when our heroine, Esther, becomes mistress of Bleak House, the book title takes on new significance for me. On the other hand, Mr. Jarndyce’s proposal seemed to be more of a business arrangement, based on the filter through which we are able to view it, Esther’s commentary. But, then, Esther put her arms around Mr. Jarndyce’s neck and kissed him, so I guess it was not just a business proposal afterall. Thoughts?
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Laura, I'm certain Esther is grateful for all Mr. J. has done for her - and for his understanding when she tells him she knows who her mother is. I thought it a bit odd that the day after she reveals her secret to him, he proposes to her, asking her to become Mistress of Bleak House.. Does he love her? He says she's changed him - done him a world of good - BUT, didn't he give her those keys and turn over the housekeeping right after she arrived? It's almost as if he has been training her for the role all along.
Isn't it clear that she loves Allan Woodcourt? What now?
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John Jarndyce is almost a shadow taking on all these folks and seeing to their future but we really know little about him. Doesn't sound like a romantic man or for that matter a man who has feelings - he seems to know and acknowledge taking care of other folks feelings but his own are in a shadow.
You almost have to wonder if he is making sure Esther is not left alone and is taking care of her again with a proposal - he may think the scaring of her face is a hindrance that he just did not let it show but he fears that other possible love interests would be put off and so why not marry - he does everything he can for those he knows about.
I love the way Dickens describes the countryside - he describes towns but for me his poetic turn comes through when he is describing the countryside or the night. Oh I cannot forget the bit about Jo like vapor of a black cat hugging the buildings as he follows Doc Woodcourt.
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I was just thinking that we are dragged through the most horrible , sordid lives of the 19th century by Dickens. We follow him willingly. He is our pied piper and our beloved guide all rolled up into one.
Without his gorgeous, luscious descriptions and his sense of humor he would not find us so easily and blindly following him through the muck. But we are mesmerized.
A true GENIUS!
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I wonder how Dickens' contemporaries reacted to these descriptions. And I wonder if he put in the bit about the slums breeding contagion that affected the rich (true enough) to hit them where it hurt.
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PatH, that's an interesting point to think about - how did Dickens' contemporaries view his call for reform? - That's what he's doing, isn't he? Poverty, illness, substandard living conditions - so widespread -with no sign of improvement. Their effects cannot escape the notice of everyone - except perhaps the rich out in the country, who are able to look the other way. We know that Dickens work is extremely popular. Was he at the head of the reform movement? Surely he is making large numbers of the population aware of the dire situation and the need for reform. The "pied piper," as Jude described him... Was he revered as a reformist - or as a fine storyteller?
Laura, you've read to the end of Chapter XLVI - the "Stop Him" chapter? Jo tells Allan he was taken somewhere in the night...by a man who took him to the hospital and gave him money - and then told him to move on out of London when he gets out. If he gave Jo money, then we know he's not Skimpole, right? The person who took Jo from the Bleak House barn - seems a kind-hearted man - getting him medical attention and then money to get away - to safety. So why does Jo fear him? He knows this man well. He has seen him before - "in all kinds of places."
I think the tip off to his identity came when Jo told Allan that he never did anything wrong - Has this man threatened to put him in prison, then? Can this be anyone but Mr. Bucket?
Do you think Mr. Bucket works for Tulkinghorn - or do you think he is called in to take into custody those who Tulkinghorn calls for arrest - as he did poor Gridley?
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Personally, JOANP, I have quite settled in my own mind that Capt. Hawdon was Esther's
father. And I don't think it was anything in the document that made Lady Dedlock faint,
simply that she recognized the handwriting of a man she had thought was dead.
Skimpole and his cake, fruit and wine...just further proof that he is always ready
to indulge himself. It is unlikely that any of those have yet been paid for, or ever
will be, but Skimpole doesn't consider that to be his problem.
BARB, I think you are right; it was Bucket who urged Jo to leave London. I believe
he was concerned for Jo's safety; the boy knew too much of Tulkinghorn's 'secrets'. I
thing the vague threat was an attempt to insure the boy would stay away.
Oh, thank you,LAURA! I was wondering when someone would take up the very important and
dramatic Letter and Answer. Mr. Jarndyce did seem matter-of-fact about his proposal,
but I think that was to make it easier for Esther to refuse if she wished. It seemed
to me that his intention was to assure that she would be safe and provided for. There
is no question in my mind that he loves Esther, but he is not an infatuated young swain.
Esther's love for him is based on respect, gratitude for his kindness, and a recognition
of his goodness. She is not 'in love' with him as she may be with Alan Woodcourt, but
that dream appears doomed, and she has shown that she can be happy in her present way
of life.
Seeing as the subject of povery and reform is paramount in Bleak House, you might find this
link interesting. I did think 'debtor's prison' was a thing of the past!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/23/lisa-lindsay-breast-cancer-survivor-debtors-jail_n_1446391.html
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Doesn't it seem like most everyone is caught up in keeping secrets or trying to find them out? Esther is the personification of the big secret of this novel... her real identity. Even her mother wasn't aware, until recently of that part of the secret (that she had a living daughter) though she has spent her life keeping the secret of her love affair. Tulkinghorn seems to be the greatest uncoverer of secrets and employs Bucket to that end. Tulkinghorn seems to go to any lengths, mowing down individuals in his greed to find out more.
Some people, such as Jo and Mr. Snagsby, are reluctant participants in aspects of the big secret and don't want to harm anyone. They don't even realize what they know. Snagsby is sworn to secrecy and Jo is warned to move on. Jo has shown one person (Lady D in disguise) various clues and Tulkinghorn doesn't want him telling anything else to anyone. Poor Jo doesn't understand why he is being hounded and threatened with prison.
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Babi, I'm in agreement with your assessment of the people and events in your last post.
I appreciate your finding that article about current debtor's prisons. It made me very angry to read it. Dickens began his writing career as a journalist of sorts. I wonder if he would be writing more investigative news articles than fiction today.
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Being that this is a novel from the mid 1800’s, I don’t suppose we will ever know if the marriage between Esther and Mr. Jarndyce will be consummated, so to speak. I agree with Joan, Barbara, and Babi that Mr. Jarndyce wants to protect and take care of Esther. I think we will have to be satisfied with that explanation, pending further revelations during the rest of the book. I feel confident that he loves Esther as a daughter, but as a wife --- I’m not sure. Maybe I will think of it as an arranged marriage, arranged by Mr. Jarndyce himself!
Joan, I had not considered that Esther still loved Mr. Woodcourt. I took the burning of the dried flowers to be symbolic of her ending “her relationship” with him, but hadn’t thought further to think about how she might still feel about him. I think he will always hold a special place in her heart, but after his mother’s visit and Esther’s scarring from small pox, I thought she had resigned herself that a romantic relationship with Mr. Woodcourt was not possible.
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Laura, you've read to the end of Chapter XLVI - the "Stop Him" chapter? Jo tells Allan he was taken somewhere in the night...by a man who took him to the hospital and gave him money - and then told him to move on out of London when he gets out. If he gave Jo money, then we know he's not Skimpole, right? The person who took Jo from the Bleak House barn - seems a kind-hearted man - getting him medical attention and then money to get away - to safety. So why does Jo fear him? He knows this man well. He has seen him before - "in all kinds of places."
I think the tip off to his identity came when Jo told Allan that he never did anything wrong - Has this man threatened to put him in prison, then? Can this be anyone but Mr. Bucket?
This explanation makes complete sense, but I would have never figured it out! I am terrible with mysteries. I tend to let the book carry me along, and wait for things to be revealed to me by the author.
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Laura, I do think that Esther has resigned herself that a romantic relationship with Mr. Woodcourt isn't possible. Since her changed appearance, she has been interpreting his attention to her as "pity." We haven't heard from anyone whether Woodcourt still loves her. Mr. Jarndyce seemed to try to question Esther about it before he asked her to consider his proposal of marriage but Esther didn't say that she had gotten any indications from Woodcourt of renewed feelings. Esther has been wrong before. I guess we'll have to wait and see. As some of you have said, I think she is contenting herself with Jarndyce's affection and trying to channel her feelings for Woodcourt into just friendship.
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In chapter 45 Dickens brings up love.
Ada really loves Richard and offers him her whole inheritance which is just enough to pay off his debts and retain his commission in the Army. She is totally unselfish in her love.
Richard has gotten himself in a real pickle and the author leves it to us, and Ada, to continue to worry about him.
Esther still loves Woodcourt in a romantic way, not in the way she loves John Jardyce. Although she burns the bouquet she had dried this is a way to help herself overcome that love. She fears that her scarred face makes her an object of pity and no young man could love her.
I am not sure that this affair is over. Woodcourt is such a heroic figure in the book (almost too good to be true) that he may end up marrying our heroine. It would very Dickensian if that happened. However it would only happen, if it does, later in the story.
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YIKES!!
After I finished posting I went to Yahoo News. The second article was:"The Return of Debtors Prison"
Here are a few highlights.
The lady who was the focus of the article was jailed for owing $281
on a medical bill that was incorrectly sent to a collection agency.
Debtors prisons in the US were abolished in 1830 but today one third of the states allow people
to be jailed for small suns that they owe. Florida adds a 40% debtors fee to the amount. Many of the other states add 30%.
Collection agencies in these states prefer to use State Troopers to go to the persons home and take them to prison. This saves them the price of hiring investigators and other personell.
A person who is jailed for a debt is NOT allowed a public defender.
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The way John Jarndyce proposes shows his quality. He has probably loved her for a long time, but not wanted to interfere with her chance of falling in love with someone nearer her own age. He surely recognized that she was falling in love with Woodcourt. Then she is scarred, and finally, she learns her own story. She is illegitimate, with no chance of anything from her parents. It's only then, when he feels he won't be keeping her from something better, that he proposes.
He is very careful to try to keep her from feeling pressured. In her position of dependence and gratitude, she might feel obligated to accept, and he tries to make it clear that she will lose absolutely nothing if she refuses. He has her read the letter when he isn't around, and take time before she replies, to be sure of herself.
I agree with Jude--Esther still has feelings for Woodcourt, but has given up any possibility of marrying him. She can definitely make a happy marriage if she marries Jarndyce--there is enough love for that.
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YIKES is right, Jude, I had no idea.
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http://www.texasobserver.org/cover-story/debtors-prisons-rise-again-in-the-south
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YIKES: I'm being pwestered for a cell phone bill that I never purchased. I've ignored it -- maybe I'd better do something about it.
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But remember, you DON'T HAVE TO BUY IT, Joank! Even though we understand you'd do anything to avoid the debtors' prison! Can't you see Richard facing his debts, being marched off to the prison? Might teach him a hard lesson. But you know Jarndyce will not let things go that far. He'll pay, as he pays Skimpole...tells Skimpole "we must save his - Richard's pocket, that Richard must not pay when the two go about. Skimpole tells Jarndyce he had believed Richard was immensely rich.
Is this what Mr. Vholes had been led to believe? Surely he knows now that Richard has nothing - that the real money is his connection to John Jarndyce.
I'm still not sold on the good John Jarndyce, Jude - I'm not sure that I find him a believable character. I just don't admire him as much as Esther does -- though he is generous with this money - seems to have a lot to go round. Isn't he throwing it away on Skimpole? Encouraging him to keep spending ? Maybe IF he marries Esther, she'll be spend his money more judiciously.
How old is Esther...early 20's, he's over 60? Is the age difference a problem? There are times when I think Dickens is telling us this is a mismatch. But then I remember his affaire with the very young actress, Ellen Ternan - for whom he left his wife. He probably sees a happy marriage for Jarndyce and grateful young Esther. What think you? Do you see marriage for these two in this novel?
She's planning on keeping herself "busy, busy, busy, useful, amiable, serviceable." Isn't this how she's always handled situations that are difficult? Tells herself - "when you are mistress of Bleak House, you will be as cheerful as a bird"...a bird in a cage?
Clearly she still has feelings for Allan Woodcourt. And he's such an paragon of virtue - interested in Esther too. Why assume that he will not continue to love her because of her scars? If Esther is happy with this proposal, why does she take a week to respond to the letter? Why is she crying as she burns the flowers?
And what did you think of what she did with those flowers before burning them - pressed them to sleeping Ada's lips! What did you think of that? It occurred to me that she was giving Allan to Ada. Has she given up on Richard and Ada?
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she was giving Allan to Ada. Has she given up on Richard and Ada?
Never thought of that - hmmm
Joan all the characters that are really good seem over the top - John Jarndyce, Esther, Jo, Woodcourt - Ada seems like pablum, talk about a shadowed personality - we have no more clue to her than we do to John J.
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"all the characters that are really good seem over the top". Yes, that's Dickens' way. The bad characters are over the top too. And the others are often characatures -- having one characteristic that is exaggerated and is all we see. Dickens is not into subtle characterization -- that's a different sort of book.
Sentimental me thinks John J. really loves Esther romantically, but didn't want to say so until he is sure she has no better chances on the horizon. Perhaps Dickens IS thinking of himself and the actress -- I don't know how the timing of that affair worked.
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Interesting speculation, MARCIE. I can easily see Dickens as an investigative
journalist. I believe he would have loved that job. I do hope it wouldn't prevent him
from writing fiction, tho'. What a loss that would be.
I agree, LAURA. And since she saw the need to put that dream behind her, and felt a
duty to act honorably toward John Jarndyce, the burning of the bouquet meant to me a
turning away from the hopes of the past.
Wasn't marriage between young women and older men rather common in those days?
Parents thought it a great idea to assure their daughters' future by marrying her to
a man already well-established and prosperous. Marrying simply for 'love' was considered
impractical and foolish, at least among the moneyed classes.
Now, Dickens has been setting the scene for poor Jo. Dying, he is taken in by Mr. George.
“He is not one of Mrs. Pardiggle’s Tockahoopo Indians; he is not one of Mrs. Jellyby’s lambs; being wholly unconnected with Borrioboola-Gha; he is wholly unconnected with Borrioboola-Gha; he is not softened by distance and unfamiliarity; he is not a genuine foreign-grown savage; he is the ordinary home-made article.” Dickens wants to see people turning
their attention to the very great needs right at their doorsteps.
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One wonders what Jo would have made of himself if he had had any sort of decent chance in the world. He seems resourceful and willing to work. He is honest--hard to stick to that when you're poor and starving. And he has a conscience--he feels guilty for having infected Esther.
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Babi and Pat, yes, I see the stage set for losing Jo. He does have a good heart. He got medicine for Jenny (or her friend; I can't recall which) and he feels terrible for infecting Esther. If Tulkinghorn hadn't been so determined to find out Lady D's secret and determined to cover up the investigation, with no thought to Jo and the likelyhood that Jo would never tell anyone, Jo would likely have stayed and continued his poor work and not have had to "keep moving" in starvation and cold. Tulkinghorn's to blame for his being sick.
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Jo has played his role and leaves the stage, and what a touching scene Dickens makes of his exit. Esther is obviously the author's creature. She, too, takes leave of her favorite things with dramatic flair. Burning her bouquet, burying her doll. Dickens leaves no doubt of his favorite character, and without giving anything away I can say that he is setting things up for a happy ending for her.
What a busy week for me. A death in the family took me out of town on Monday and now back in town again, I'm on my way out to help celebrate a book launching this afternoon (a friend's). Tomorrow it's back to participate some more in the great gathering occasioned by my BIL's demise. He was something of a writer himself. A great letter writer. Very proud of what he wrote. Would like to have seen them published, but some were buried with him, the love letters he had written many years ago, and which he often seems to have read after his wife died, many years ago. He was 93.
I've read all your posts very quickly, and am struck by the lively discussion this has turned out to be.
JoanK, I can understand your dismay at being asked to install a phone in your cell. How much would it take to bet you bailed out. I'm sure we're all too eager to help you get out.
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Jonathan, I'm so sorry about your BIL's demise. It sounds like he had a valuable and interesting life.
What a good comparison! Burning the flowers is very like burying the doll. Esther saying to herself: OK, time to move on.
Don't worry, JoanK and I are always ready to bail each other out. ;)
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Please accept my condolences, too, Jonathan. I'm sorry for the loss of your old friend and member of your family.
Burying the dear old doll, burning the dried flowers from Allan - Esther does know how to move on, doesn't she? But underneath it all, she's not happy letting go of Allan.
I guess I have no choice but to accept "over the top" characters - accept the fact that Jarndyce is really a good loving man, not someone too good to be true, acting the part. It's a bit like accepting the many "over the top" coincidences - like Esther being in Deal just as Allan Woodcourt steps off the ship from India, for example -
Though she believed he pitied her changed appearance, she was glad to see the look on his face as she drove away...
"I felt for my old self as the dead may feel if they ever revisit these scenes. I was glad to be tenderly remembered, to be greatly pitied, not to be quite forgotten." Ah, but Esther is very much alive, isn't she? So is Allan Woodcourt. It's not over, is it?
But what would happen to John Jarndyce, alone in Bleak House - without a Mistress, tending the basket of keys?
Do you find yourself wondering whether Esther is part of the Jarndyce vs Jarndyce will and law suitl? We really don't know anything about that suit, do we? John Jarndyce vs. Tom Jarndyce? The plot seems to be coming together at a faster clip than before.
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Dickens didn't keep us in suspense too long between installments this time. His readers know Jo's "cart" cannot go on much longer. He begins the first chapter of the 15th installment, chapter 47 - "Jo's Will" - with Allan desparately trying to find a hiding place for poor Jo.
Allan knows the boy - {How old do you see Jo?} - is dying. "It's a strange fact in the heart of a civilized world, this creature in civilized form, should be more difficult to dispose of than an unowned dog."
Was it just a coincidence that the only place he could think of to take him was Miss Flite's - and from there to Mr. George's shooting range for his last days, the same path Gridley followed before he died? Can someone remind me - do we know anythng about Miss Flite's case before the Chancery yet? She seems to be taking on a more important role as the story progresses...
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I hope your family gathering is the celebration it should be, JONATHAN, for a life well
lived.
I haven't seen anything to suggest that Esther might be a party to Jarndyce & Jarndyce,
JOANP. Even is by chance she should be, I wouldn't expect any benefit to her from it,
any more than to anyone else. Alan Woodcourt, now...I still have hopes for that outcome.
Dickens closing words on the death of Jo are, I believe, a strong appeal to his readers. “The light is come upon the dark benighted way. Dead! Dead, your Majesty. Dead, my lords ands gentlemen. Dead, Right Reverends and Wrong Reverends of every order. Dead, men and women, born with Heavenly compassion in your hearts. And dying thus around us
every day.”
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Poor Jo is lucky to be taken in by George in his last days. He is more comfortable than he has ever been, but the place is disreputable enough that he doesn't feel out of place. And his last thought is to apologize to Esther for infecting her. Did you notice his remarks about preachers? Mr. Chadband "sounded as if he wos a speakin' to his-self, and not to me." "Other genlmen" came to Tom-all-Alone's, "but all they mostly sed as the T'other wuns prayed wrong, and all mostly sounded to be a talking to theirselves, or a passing blame on the t'others, and not a talkin to us." Sounds like Dickens talking here. How old is Jo? I have a dim memory he's twelve, but don't know where I saw that.
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Do you find yourself wondering whether Esther is part of the Jarndyce vs Jarndyce will and law suit?
Lady Dedlock seems to have a minor role in the case, but I'm guessing that since Esther is illegitimate, she would not have any claim. She certainly knows better than to try to get involved.
I have the impression that Miss Flite's lawsuit was dropped long ago, but she is hooked on the court, and deluded and still thinks it will come up some day.
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A few quick thoughts:
I am not sure if Esther and Mr. Jarndyce will actually marry. I can honestly see things going either way. I am just going to have to read on to find out.
I am so frustrated with Richard that I can hardly stand it! Ada must truly care about him to be willing to give him money, even though she knows his history. Why does Mr. Jarndyce enable people like Richard and Mr. Skimpole?
Allan and Ada --- interesting!
Back later for talk on the next installment!
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oh oh oh out-loud blubbering - couldn't stop with the heaving tears of an eight year old - I could hear my mother in my head telling me to breath - I had to stop reading after the death of Jo - and it touched me for hours.
Now that is over the top - I am thinking, where at first it was all the goodie two shoes I saw as over the top someone pointed out the bad guys are as exaggerated and you, JoanP pointed out some of the scenes were just too coincidental - then it hit - is that what they call melodramatic - we made fun of it in parody of the ogre dressed in a black cape trying to collect the rent from a young widow but, in the hands, or should I better say by the pen, of a master the affect is anything but a parody.
Poor Richard appears to be addicted - no more so than if he was addicted to gambling, drugs or alcohol and Ada is playing the enabler - sad - knowing what we know today it is simply Richard's way to hide from himself and cope with issues and feelings within from his growing up years just as Ada probably got through her childhood by enabling who ever showed her some love.
Oh yes, another touching picture, when Phil took Jo for a bath and some clothes - forgot the expression but it sounded like how someone in the army would name picking up essentials. I could easily imagine the trust between those two. And to give Jo a difficult time for being ill and contagious - he had no idea till someone scolded him - I think Jo was so used to being blamed for anything and everything most of which he had no clue what it was all about that if someone blamed him for making the Queen ill he would have accepted the guilt.
I like the point made that Dickens was showing how helping those far away is almost romantic when it is in place of helping those under your nose. So much of this is about us today that it is shocking to realize we have not come that far in 160 years.
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Barbara, Jo's story has to be the saddest in the entire book. I think Dickens is showing his readers - and us, how all government agencies and religious institutins have failed Jo. His character is the one Dickens' poured his soul into - using it to call for reforms.
What can Allan do with him? He can't just walk away? He can't return him to the hospital, says he won't stay there. I'm not sure why Jo was released from the hospital in the first place. Snagsby had left him there with instructions for him to move on when he was released. But why was he released? Clearly he's dying? The implications seems to be that Jo knows he's dying - and doesn't want to die in the hospital...so he left.
On the upside - we can see that there are some individuals who are helping Jo - who is right under their noses - even though he is described as "repugnant" by those he comes in contact with.
"Mr. Chadband sounded as if he wos a speakin' to his-self, and not to me." PatH Jo never did figure out what all talk of religion was about. Can't you sense Allan Woodcourt's frustration as he tries to get help him with the Lord's Prayer, knowing this is the end?
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I thought the last part of Chapter 47, Jo’sWill, was one of the most well written sections in the book. I thought the comparison of Jo to a cart was clever. Most people thought of Jo as an object, of utilitarian value only, much like a cart, capable of basic work, but not much else.
Of course, the story broke my heart. This quote struck a chord with me:
“Phil has stopped in a low clinking noise, with his little hammer in his hand. Mr. Woodcourt looks round with that grave professional interest and attention on his face, and, glancing significantly at the trooper, signs to Phil to carry his table out. When the little hammer is next used, there will be a speck of rust upon it.”
A speck of rust from a teardrop! Beautiful!
Please accept my sympathy on your loss, Jonathan.
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I don't think many of us had dry eyes in that part.
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For Mr. Tulkinghorn's time is over for evermore, and the Roman pointed at the murderous hand uplifted against his life, and pointed helplessly at him, from night to morning, lying face downward on the floor, shot through the heart.
Racing in our minds - who did it? - Lady Deadlock out at night walking till we have no idea what hour - George the owner of firearms - both have a strong motive - who else had motive and the means to shoot Mr. Talkinghorn in the heart - interesting the man with no heart is shot in the heart.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/charles-dickens/9064217/Charles-Dickens-stamps-for-2012.html
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illnewmeaning.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illnewmeaning.jpg)
A New Meaning in the Roman
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INSTALMENT
XV
XVI |
DATE of PUBLICATION
May. 1853
June 1853 |
CHAPTERS
47-49
50-53 |
DISCUSSION DATES
Apr. 26-Apr. 30
May 1- May 5 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illfriendlybucket.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illfriendlybucket.jpg)
Friendly Behaviour of Mr. Bucket
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Some Topics to Consider
Chapter XLVII Jo's Will
1. Was it just a coincidence that Allan Woodcourt took Jo to Miss Flite's and then to Mr. George's shooting range for his last days, the same path Gridley followed?
2. Why does Mr. George risk taking Jo in? And why does Allan Woodcourt send for John Jarndyce?
3. What did you understand by the title of the first chapter of this Installment: Jo's Will?
4. How does the doctor show that he regards Jo as more than a sick animal in need of comfort?
5. "Dead your majesty, lords and gentlemen. Right/Wrong Reverends. Dying thus around us everyday" Is Dickens' message to his readers clear enough?.
Chapter XLVIII Closing In
1. Lady Dedlock, her pride beaten down, ready to flee. But where can she go? Do you understand why she is sending Rosa away at this time?
2. Why does Sir Leceister speak in favor of keeping Rosa at Chesney Wold, while Mr. Rouncewell speaks in favor of dismissing her from the Dedlock patronage? An interesting turn of events!
3. Why does M. Tulkinghorn disapprove of Lady Dedlock's decision? How does this violate their agreement? Do you believe he really intends to "undeceive" Sir Leceister?
4. Where has Lady Dedlock gone when she left the garden? Do you believe she was just going for a walk or might she have had another destination?
5. What was that Roman on the ceiling, a paralyzed dumb witness, pointing at? Can you find Dickens' exact words?
Chapter XLIX Dutiful Friendship
1. Mrs. Bagnet's happy birthday celebration. Where did Mr. George find the money to get her that beautiful brooch?
2. Do you believe that Detective Bucket showed up at the Bagnets' looking for a wiollencellar or did he know that Mr. George would be there?
3. When did you become aware that the detective had something else on his mind, other than wiollencellars?
4. A good question - "What is public life without private ties?" Do you think this is Dickens asking, referring to his own life? Does Bucket seem to have both?
5. Does Bucket seem to have a good case against Mr. George? Do you think he'd try to get the reward if he believed there was a chance George was innocent?.
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I loved Jo's (Dickens') comments, PATH. Unfortunately, they are all too accurate.
Another quote from Dickens..this one delighted me...“The fashionable world, tremendous
orb, nearly five miles around ---is in full swing, and the solar system works respectfully
at its appointed distance.”
You're right, BARB. In the hands of a master, such scenes become very real and touch us
very closely. I suspect scenes that would sound melodramatic take place somewhere every
day; we have just insulated ourselves for our own protection.
Finally, the murder we've all been expecting. Now we shall see what manner of detective
our author has created.
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Do you have any thoughts on the meaning of the title, "Jo's Will"? The subject of "wills" seems to be a recurrent theme...from the Jarndyce will on...
There was an allusion to workhouse in this chapter - which Allan Woodcourt quickly ruled out. The workhouses seem worse, far more inhumane than debtors' prison. Actually, living in the workhouse sounds worse than living in Tom-All-Alone's...
"Before 1834, poor people were looked after by buying food and clothing from money collected from land owners and other wealthy people.
The Poor Law Amendment Act of 1834, ensured that no able-bodied person could get poor relief unless they went to live in special workhouses. " http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/homework/victorians/workhouses.html
Dickens has been calling for a reform of the Poor Law Ammendment - and the conditions in the workhouses in several novels, you'll remember Oliver Twist. I think he is addressing the shortcomings of the workhouses and the need for reform again here. The poor would do anything to avoid the workhouses. Those of the "fashionable world" believe that they are under no obligation - under the existing law. I think Dickens is putting the blame and responsibility where it belongs here -
"Dead your majesty, lords and gentlemen. Right/Wrong Reverends. Dying thus around us everyday."
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"For Mr. Tulkinghorn's time is over for evermore, and the Roman pointed at the murderous hand uplifted against his life, and pointed helplessly at him, from night to morning, lying face downward on the floor, shot through the heart."
So, at last, we have the murder..., Barbara - and quite a few suspects - with motves. Dickens seems to be pointing at Lady Dedlock, although I don't believe it for a second. But she has no alibi. ? I can't see her getting into his house - shooting a gun. And she's on foot as she leaves the garden at Chesney Wold. How far is Chesney Wold from London? Do we know that? Was the now-deceased Mr. Tulkinghorn on foot when he left Chesney Wold?
We need Mr. Bucket on the case! Although he seems to have made up his mind about the murderer...
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JoanP, I do not think they were at Chesney Wold because if you remember Tulkinghorn walked home after his infamous private visit with Lady Deadlock - seems to me that bit where he tried to put Lady Deadlock on the defense took place in the London TownHouse and so if he can walk home I would imagine Lady Deadlock could walk to his home.
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OK, you're right, Barb...LadyD has no alibi. Unless she had made an arrangement to meet someone else when she went out the garden gate. that person could provide her with the needed alibi.
I went back to the first paragraph of the chapter -
"The place in Lincolnshire has shut its many eyes again and the house in town is awake..."
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This was one of the very early detective stories, and the readers were not yet sophisticated. It will be interesting to see how good it is by modern standards. Bucket certainly looks promising as a detective; he's pretty sharp.
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Just finished the chapters.
In Chapt. 47 a "Fitz Jarndyce" is mentioned by Miss Flite. Who is this person? Anyone know?
Dickens is such a good writer. He pulls us through the murder of Tulkinghorn in a chapter that is all darkness. Then he thrusts us into the comedy of Mrs. Bagnet's Birthday which is all so real and so light that you forget the dark that has just passed. That is until Mr. Bucket arrives. It is obvious from the first that he is acting and has come for George. He does so in a way as to not disturb the happy Bagnet family.
A nice guy detective.He is clever and subtle but does his job.
Jonathan: You have my sympathy in the loss of your BIL.
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Jude, Miss Flite has frequently called Esther Miss Fitz-Jarndyce - going back to the day she first met the Fitz-Jarndyce wards. She regards them as the Jarndyce clan, it seems. I wonder if she'll call her Mrs. Fitz-Jarndyce once she marries John. Have they talked about setting a date for their wedding yet?
You're right about the abrupt change in mood and tone - especially so following the intense scenes. I find I'm looking forward to the lighter scenes as relief. Sometimes I find it odd how the action proceeds after the dramatic ones - characters seem to be the last to know about things that happen in the same vicinity - like Jo's death or Tulkinghorn's murder.
You'd think Mr. George would have heard about Tulkinghorn's murder, wouldn't you? Whoops? Maybe he did? Could that be why he is acting so jumpy, looking so strange when he arrives for Mrs. Bagnet's birthday party. That just occurs to me now.
"This was one of the very early detective stories, and the readers were not yet sophisticated."
. They weren't looking for DNA evidence at the murder scene, PatH? Can you compare this murder mystery to any others Dickens wrote?
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They weren't looking for DNA evidence at the murder scene, PatH? Can you compare this murder mystery to any others Dickens wrote?
Right. Somehow DNA wouldn't be Dickens' sort thing even if it had been known then--too mechanical. He's more people-oriented. I meant two things: whether a bit of sensationalism alone would satisfy his audience, and how much Dickens played by the sort of rules mystery readers have come to expect. The crime should be puzzling. The detective should do real detecting, (either with logic or clues or physical stuff like following people), not just somehow know who did it. The writer should sort of play fair--the reader should have some hope of guessing the solution, the criminal should be a character in the story, not someone who appears at the last moment, and so on. It looks like a very satisfying mystery by any standards, and Bucket is clever and subtle.
The only other Dickens mystery I've read is Edwin Drood. The murder there is the main part of the plot, not just one segment, as here. It's unfinished, but depending on how you think it was going to turn out, it's heading toward a satisfying detective story, a good psychological study of a murderer, or both.
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No mystery but there is the murder by Bill Sikes and Nancy and then there is a short story about a trail for murder http://www.dickens-literature.com/The_Trial_For_Murder/0.html - but no other mystery except as you say Edwin Drood.
Mysteries seem to be fairly new - looked it up and they give credit to Edgar Allan Poe for 'Murder on the Rue Morgue.' and then the first full length mystery novel is a toss up because of publishing dates versus when the books were actually written - the two are Doyle's 'The Hound of the Baskervilles' and Collin's 'The Moonstone'.
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That whole bit with Lady Deadlock and Tulkinghorn after she dismissed her maid to Mr. Rouncewell was quite a human chess match wasn't it - she had few moves but played them well and had Tulkinghorn on the run. I don't for a minute think she broke any agreement - it was a ruse to allow Tulkinghorn to attempt to have more power over her and she saw the game for what it was outwitting him with silence. Brilliant.
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Yes, Barbara, Lady D and Tulkinghorn were well matched in not showing the other any emotion or betraying what was on their mind. Tulkinghorn admired her power. That's one of the reasons I don't think that Lady D would shoot Tulkinghorn. She has too much restraint. Why blow everything now after keeping herself in strict check for all of her adult life?
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A good question, JUDE. Miss Flite has mentioned 'Fitz-Jarndyce' more
than once, I believe. She has been around so long, I have come to suspect that she
sees connections that others do not. Perhaps Esther reminds her of someone attached
to the case from the past. Perhaps Lady Dedlock's family?? Just speculating.
I like your observation on Bagnet. Nice,..but he does his job.
Another reason George might have been acting so oddly, JOANP, could be that he is
greatly worried over the debt he owes Smallweed, for which his old friend co-signed.
He is afraid he will be the cause of harm to that family. That would certainly have
me in a jumpy state.
Good definition of a good mystery, PatH. Just the way I like them. I can't believe Lady Dedlock killed Tulkinghorn, much as she might have wished to see him dead.
I agree she just doesn't seem the type, plus, she is the most obvious suspect, which to me
rules her out at once. :) Then there is a George, who is one of Dickens' 'good guys' and imo
not likely to be the guilty party. I can see Hortense committing murder, but what is her motive?
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The confrontation between Lady D. and Tulkinghorn is a battle of giants. He is very admiring of her strategy and self-control, in fact he comes dangerously close to feeling actual emotion.
But she does not win. He holds all the cards, and when he goes, she is left with the knowledge that he will reveal her secret when he chooses, the only concession being that it will not be that night.
Of course this gives her the perfect motive for the murder. T. dies during her short safe time, and with luck her secret is preserved. I too find it hard to believe she did it--she's too sympathetic, and she's the heroine's mother.
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None of us believe that Mr. George is the murderer, is that right?
Babi mentions Hortense - but she wants something from Tulkinghorn, so she wouldn't have killed him. Where's the motive?
I'm remembering a comment Mr. George made - many chapters ago - regarding the people who came to his shooting range for target practice. Remember he mentioned "French women" specifically. The only French woman in this piece is Hortense. I can see more trouble for Mr. George on the horizon if it turns out that the gun that killed Tulkinghorn is somehow traced back to George's shooting range. But again, what would Hortense's motive have been to shoot Tulkinghorn.
I find it hard to believe Lady D did it, too, Pat. In dismissing Rosa, she planned to leave, rather than wait for Tulkinghorn to "undeceive" Sir Leicester. I've been trying to figure out where she would have gone. It would have to be a place where she is not recognized. We know she left the London townhouse. I guess we need to read further to find out if she returned home that night. IF she did not return, then maybe she'll have an alibi as to where she was at the time of the murder.
PatH, I think that Dickens, the "master of construction" has thought out his plot very carefully from the beginning - and that the clues will have all been planted earlier in the story - no unfair surprises. Even though this is an early mystery, I really don't think he's going to disappoint his modern reader. I have to admit that I was a bit diappointed in Poe's mysteries - never being able to figure out the denouement from the clues he provided.
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JoanP
Your remarks about Poe made me think.
I know he is considered by some to be the first mystery writer but I always looked at his works as stories, not mystery stories for precisely the reasons you laid out. The clues don't lead to the denoument.
I am a fan of Poe's potry but not of his stories. He probably wrote them for monetary purposes but his great talent was in his verse.
Dickens , on the other hand, is a serious planner in his novels and if he chooses to present a murder he has laid his plans well before the event actually happens in the novel.
So, yes, we will remember clues after the denoument of this murderer.
We are, according to my Kindle 77% into the story. It is a new way of thinking about plot development and what happens when in a Dickens novel.
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I admit I'm confused as to why Tulkinghorn would have thought that "saving" Rosa was so serious as to cause him to reveal all to Sir L. Or is it just that he sees that with Rosa taken care of, Lady D. is free to flee somewhere?
Anyway, she is clearly desparate. Dickens makes a very convincing case that she is guilty. I hope it is what we mystery readers call a "red herring": clues that send you in the wrong direction.
Best would be if Smallweed turned out to have done it: we'd be rid of both "bad guys" at one swoop. But I can't imagine the motive.
Anyway, if I know Dickens, he'll leave us hanging for awhile. I don't expect to find the answer yet.
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Pat did a grerat job of describing the conventions that we mystery readers expect. I wish more modern writers took them seriously. I read a lot of mystery stories, and too often, there is no detecting at all -- in the last chapter, suddenly someone says "I killed him and now I'm going to kill you, heh, heh" and the detective says "Oh no you're not", and bops him/her on the head.
Lazy writing.
But mysteries are still good reading. Any of you who like them and aren't in the mystery discussion, come on over.
http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=807.3640 (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=807.3640)
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Well 77% or not I am becoming impatient - the book has turned into a page turner - the early 70% was paced leisurely but held my interest and the writing was the highlight for me however, since Jo dying the story seems to have attained another level that has me wanting to know what next...I am tempted to read on...the plot has taken over my imagination...the characters are well defined and we know there will be some fabulous description of setting but now I just want to know what happens next, why this one is acting as they are and for me the big question still looms - when did Lady Deadlock and Sir Leicester marry in relationship to her being pregnant - at least part of my curiosity is answered that she probably married thinking the Capitan was lost or died at sea and being pregnant she better hurry up and marry.
If Babi is right, Hortense seems such a minor character and Tulkinghorn such the major character I guess that would be how a small thing can trip up the great everytime - lots of good quotes about small things - like: "If you can't do great things, do small things in a great way." Or better yet, in 1813, nine small out-gunned ships defeated a Royal Navy fleet of six heavy vessels in the Battle of Lake Erie.
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"If you can't do great things, do small things in a great way."
Or how about Mother Theresa saying that you can't do great things in this life but you can do small things with great love.
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I know what you are saying Joan and it is a wonderful bit of wisdom but stop and laugh a bit - do you think if it is Hortense that murdered Tulkinghorn she did it out of great love? ;) :D
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Good question. :D
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If, If, If....'do you think she did it out of great love?'
I can't stop laughing, Barb. Of course. It would take a great love to find the heart that was never there. As you pointed out in another post, how interesting...the man with no heart is shot through the heart. Was that fact intended as a clue? I took it as meaning, look for someone capable of deadly marksmanship. Someone looking for the heart in Tulkinghorn? What a supreme irony.
Why Mr Tulkinghorn? Is he made to pay for all the misery in the book? It's grossly unjust. This is no common murder mystery. Dickens is playing for higher stakes. His book could as easily be seen as a ghost story. Even as a romance.
Thank you, all, for the kind thoughts
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Welcome back Jonathan - I hope your week was not just somber but filled with the bitter sweet memories that can take us past the loss of a good friend - your post expressing your admiration for Bill kept you among us.
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Even though I don't know of a motive for the French maid to kill Tulkinghorn, it
has been apparent that she is emotionally volatile, easily offended, and vengeful by
nature. I can well imagine her committing murder. If so, we may have to wait to
discover why.
Why Mr. Tulkinghorn, JONATHAN? He seems a very likely candidate to me. He has been
the cause of misery to a number of people, any one of whom would probably greet his
death with relief and a heartfelt 'good riddance'. If he has a friend in the world,
Dickens hasn't introduced him to us. Between Tulkinghorn and Smallweed, it was a
toss-up in my mind which would be the victim. Both were living lives that made them
hated on all sides. It's a wonder to me that Smallweed's own family hasn't put him out of
their misery. (The 'their' was intentional.)
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OK a Tulkinghorn today - we had Hoover, probably the CIA although, I do not put Panetta or Petraeus in that catagory except the job may have them worming out and keeping untold secrets - Now I do think Dick Cheney without a heart was similar to Tulkinghorn.
And Smallweed, today we have to include the big bankers who are taking back homes without giving folks a chance to recoup or they take them back just because their investment is not the percentage of the value they expected.
And so Dickens lives on many fronts, again 160 years later. Sheesh...
Which says it is not systems or even governments it is people who take advantage of systems and others in the wider community which is really all a government is - in a book like Bleak House it is easy to ID the bad guys but on a national scale we punish the easy crooks and leave the ones who do mostly paper damage go.
Well the Birthday party was a welcome relief - is that it - we would be as well off celebrating our life. The Bagnet's seem like good people trying to bring up a family and helping a friend but their family's safety is tied to that friend - an example of how we are all connected as today the mortgage crises has lowered the value of just about everyone's property and sent many into the lines of the un-employed.
No wonder this is a classic - nothing changes - the book is really more about people and their moral values - He is saying, no matter the government system and increased knowledge people react to life with their own concern and their own inner compass - we cannot get our arms around everyone to create the peace-loving utopia we all desire.
Even as dislikable as is Smallweed - you almost can see how he has to make a dime as the saying goes and with his physical handicap along with his lack of advanced education he had few avenues opened to him. When it comes down to it at this time in history we had no attitude or laws about spousal abuse - heck, even here in the US it was only 27 years ago when the law changed so that a fine for spousal abuse was no longer a $25 fine - yes, not a mis-print, $25 dollars, equivalent to most traffic tickets at the time. Doesn't make the character Smallweed any more likable or acceptable but there is some reason to his choices.
Pahleeeaassse someone tell me what is a wiollencellar I have looked it up 6 ways from Sunday and cannot find what it is - some kind of cellar that... - maybe it is a colloquial dialect for several words but it is beyond me...
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That's Bucket's cockney accent saying the musical instrument violoncello, usually called a cello. Bagnet evidently sells musical instruments.
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In the car can't post much now But it just occurs
Could it mean a violin seller
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Never would have guessed a violin seller but could be - I was thinking with the wi starting the combenation of sounds that it has something to do with a wine celler - please after y'all are safely home and have a minute would you see if Norton's gives us some insight - the violin cello or seller sounds as good as can be but it would be so nice to nail this - now you have me curious as to what Mr. Bagnet does to earn his money.
Wouldn't it be lovely if you could hit a character and have all of the pages and chapters that include that character listed...ah so we can only dream...
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As for the meaning of the chapter title, Jo’s Will, I think there are two possibilities. Will could mean his last will and testament, what he leaves behind to those left on earth. Certainly, Jo touched a number of people, as evidenced by the emotions displayed by those who cared for him, especially at the end of his life. Will could also mean Jo’s desire, or what he wanted. He didn’t want to go to the workhouse and did everything in his power to live his life on his own terms.
Lady Dedlock didn’t commit murder. I think George was acting oddly because of Jo’s death, or so he says. I believe him. I don’t believe he was the murderer either. I don’t know who did the deed. I am just going to read onto the next section. I have a feeling it won’t be revealed in that section either, but I can wait. You have to be wiling to be patient with a long book like this, and I am.
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BarbST...
Bagnet, according to our character chart and chapt.49 is an ex-artillery man and at present a Bassoon player.
However the chart has what seems to be a mistake. Malta and Quebec are Bagnets daughters, not Bayham Badger's daughters as listed.
Jo reminds me of the movie, "Angels With Dirty Faces", about poor children .in N.Y. City (If I remember correctly).
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In chapter XXVII, More Old Soldiers than One, Bagnet's residence, in a street of little shops, is described as a "...musician's shop, having a few fiddles in the window, and some Pan's pipes and a tambourine, and a triangle..." Later he and his son leave to play the bassoon and the fife at a theater.
InXLIX, Dutiful Friendship, Bucket looks in the shop window, he says because a friend wants a second-hand wiolincellar, of good tone. As he leaves, he reminds Bagnet of the second-hand wiolincellar "A good tone, mind you! My friend...saws away at Mo-zart and Handel, and the rest of the big-wigs...."
So Bagnet makes his living by playing the bassoon and selling instruments, and the wiolincellar is a cello.
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We're home -one thought on "wiolinsellar," Barb. Norton doesn't mention it at all. I did one more search and found that there was a very fine violin made in Romania in the nineteenth century by Andreas Zeller. It was well known in England at the time. Do you suppose Bucket was asking Mr. Bagnet to find him one of these "wiolinzellers"? It sounds right - if you don't see the word...
But wait - I think PatH got it - look at this - the Italian word - wiolonczela.
Look at these pictures of wiolonczela (http://www.google.com/search?q=wiolonczela&hl=en&sa=X&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GGIG&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=7v-dT4yLIaT66QHLg9WSDw&ved=0CDgQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=571)
- an Italian word, Dickens probably couldn't spell it! No wonder Norton couldn't find it!
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSc5cbrmT1iw_KFRUS0mqfxc2jU2m53hfjd6mqZot1vCLYKni6NNQ)
Looks like a cello to me, Pat. I think that's Ginny when she was just starting her cello lessons...
What do you want to bet that Mr. Bagnet locates a nice wiolonczela for Bucket before the story ends? - Provided he doesn't get his friend, Mr. George, convicted, of course. :D
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Are there any small details mentioned in passing that you think are going to gain in importance as the plot unravels? How about that "beautiful brooch" that Mr. George brought as a gift to the party for Mrs. Bagnet? I thought it strange that Mr. George would show up with expensive jewelry when he's in such dire financial difficulties. There isn't too much beautiful jewelry talked mentioned in this story...except of course, Lady Dedlock's. I think that brooch will turn out to be of interest.
ps Jude, of course you're right about those Bagnet children's names. Do you remember where their son, Woolwich's name came from? I fixed the character link just now.
I don't remember if the Bayham Badgers had any children - she was the wife with all the husbands...
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Laura, I think we'll think we've solved the mystery several times, but Dickens needs to sell a few more installments, so he can't reveal all. But we are getting closer, don't you think? Babi thinks it was Hortense. I'm leaning towards Sir Leicester, right now. What do you think?
Let's see where we stand after reading the next installment. The next chapters are all Bucket. Can you believe he'd arrest Mr. George if he doesn't believe he's guilty? Can you think of a reason why he'd do that? Do you believe he'd do it for the reward money? Is this dutiful friendship?
Barb, this is getting to be a page turner, wanting to know who dun it. BUT there's so much more to this novel than solving the mystery, don't you think? Dickens is telling a story, multiple stories, actually. Only one of them involves a murderer. Dickens has so many ends to tie up in the upcoming chapters.
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hi there
this discussion is....fascinating....
ordinarily when reading there is no where near the dimensions I am getting from everyone's ideas and thoughts...good side pieces of info as I found reading Joan P's web site about poverty and the poor house (a gloomy side of the Victorian era)
we have a great TV program in Canada, called 'Murdock Mysteries' based on a Toronto local, though filmed near 'Niagara on the Lake, I believe...based on mystery books by Maureen Jennings...situated in the 1890's; but it gives a great visual of those involved in solving mysteries in a much earlier time....i.e. racing to the scene of a crime on a bicycle...new technologies as fingerprinting...a woman pathologist with a bib apron checking a cadaver with her hands bare of gloves
it all gives a good time essence of an unhurried pace and much less population...and lots of courtesy
I bought a blackberry playbook and managed to download a copy of bleak house from the Gutenberg site before we left Florida (and I love it as it has decided breaks between paragraphs making it much easier to keep the thread of Dickens's 1850's English)so have been keeping up with chapters ....
anxious to know 'who dun it'
Deb
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Hurrah on so many counts - the biggie for me is I have service again - the phone and Internet is with U-verse and both were down since around 6: Just got back in here and lo and behold Pat and Joan you solved it - and went above the salt solving it with a possible Italian instrument - - thanks you, thank you - terrrifffic -
I did learn before the service went down that London cockney does turn a V into a W so that was a help but never would have found what both of you found because I have gotten in such a muddle trying to find things in the book that at the time seem inconsequential and end up being a key to understanding something 5 or 8 chapters later.
I am surprised there is not a good annotated copy of Bleak House much like the one done for Alice in Wonderland.
Was it Laura that said she was patient - better reader than I am - as you say JoanP there are so many loose ends and I want to get more of those ends understood NOW - yes, NOW! :D ;) :-*
As to Tulkinghorn - what about Bucket himself - I am thinking maybe someone who works for Tulkinghorn and has a grudge - he may have assistance that would love to strangle him but my guess is the shooting had to be someone who we have already been introduced to in the story.
Don't see how Richard would be a suspect since he is working with Vholes and Ada I just do not see even having the ability to pick up a gun much less shoot it. Could Leicester Deadlock know how much Tulkinghorn is harassing Lady Deadlock so that all loyalty and dependence on him as his attorney are gone - shooting him in the heart though seems like a rageful act and I just do not see Sir Leicester any more than Lady Deadlock filled with that kind of emotion.
Smallweed couldn't carry it out alone but he would have a motive being angry that George gave Tulkinghorn the writings of Captain Hawdon without going through Smallweed so that Smallweed did not get his commission. Could he talk his daughter into shooting Tulkinghorn?
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I am going to go out on a limb and say that Guppy is the murderer. We know that he knows the secret of Esther’s parentage. We know he is uncomfortable having to keep secrets. We also know he had/has a crush on Esther. While he may have moved past wanting to marry her, I don’t think he would want anything damaging about her revealed.
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No wonder this is a classic - nothing changes
BARB, that is probably the best nutshell description of a classic that I've seen. A book is a classic, read through many generations, because people can still identify with what is happening.
Sorry about the error, JUDE. There were so many 'B' names, I must have gotten my
wires crossed between Badger and Bagnet.
Hortense seems to have the potential for a murderess, JOANP, but at present she is
just a suspect. I still fail to see a motive. But then, that can be something that
isn't explained until the guilty party is caught and confesses.
Interesting theory, LAURA, but I can't see Guppy risking his future...his life...in such an act. He
is so cautious! He couldn't even speak to Esther about his change of heart without prefacing his statement with all kinds of safeguards and legal insurance.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
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Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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INSTALMENT
XVI
XVII |
DATE of PUBLICATION
June. 1853
July 1853 |
CHAPTERS
50-53
54-56 |
DISCUSSION DATES
May 1-May 5
May 6- May 10 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illshadow.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illshadow.jpg)
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Some Topics to Consider
Chapter L Esther's Narrative
1. How does Dickens use Caddy's illness as a device to advance the plot?
2. How do the reactions of the characters around Caddy show their character: Prince, Mr. Turveydrop, Mrs. Jellyby, Mr. Jellyby, Mr. Woodcourt, Mr. Jarndice?
3. What is the misunderstanding between Ada and Esther? What clues does Dickens leave us? Did you guess what it was before you read on?
4. What is your reaction to Mr. J. saying he wants to make Woodcourt "as rich as a Jew"? What does this tell us about Dickens and his times?
Chapter LI Enlightened
1. Why does Richard emphasize that he is pursuing J. and J. for Ada's sake? How is the timing of this conversation significant?
2. Is it realistic that Richard should go from having no aims to being so absorbed in one aim? Do you know anyone like this? If so, how did it end for them?
3. What was your reaction when Ada tells her secret? What do you think her future will be?
4. After talking with her guardian, Esther says "I feared I might not quite have been all that I meant to be since the letter and the answer." What does she mean?
Chapter LII Obstinacy
1. Why is George so happy to see Esther?
2. Do you understand George's position that he would "rather be hanged in his own way"? Or do you agree with Mrs. Bagnet that it's "stuff and nonsense"?
3. Why is Esther afraid?
Chapter LIII The Track
1. "...when Mr. Bucket and that finger are in much conference, a terrible avenger will be heard of before long." Do you see Bucket as a terrible avenger? If so, why did he arrest George in that amiable way?
2. "Like man in the abstract, he is here today and gone tomorrow-- but very like man indeed, he is here again the next day." Is Dickens using Bucket as a symbol of something more abstract?
3. What are the "inconsolable carriages" at Tulkinghorn's funeral?
4. What are the half-dozen letters with "Lady Dedlock" written on them? Who do you think sent them? Why does Bucket check Sir L's mail?
5. Why are all the footmen called "Mercury"? Is Bucket clever at getting information out of one? How does he know about the black cloak with the fringe?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Babi, your cast of characters saved us all. Considering how much work it must have been, I'm surprised there weren't more errors.
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I agree, PatH - I can't count the number of times I've had to check with Babi's cast list. Having them grouped as she did, was a godsend.
Deb, delighted to hear you've been able to keep up while away. Recently I read that Dickens lived very near the very workhouse he described in Oliver Twist. "please sir, I want some more."
What he saw at the workhouse made quite an impression on Dickens - a place to be avoided at all costs. Yet this was the only solution to the poor, the infirmed, and the homeless situation at the time.
Do you have any suspects in mind? Guppy, Laura? Hortense? Judith Smallweed? I think these minor characters are so intimidated by by Mr. Tulkinghorn, they wouldn't conceive of doing the act on their own. The stakes aren't high enough for the risk. Now, if they are carrying out the instructions of someone else - someone who has more to risk with Tulkinghorn alive...
Dickens sure does know how to sell those Installments, doesn't he? I'll bet he keeps us guessing right to the very last one. Can he do it? Or will we have discerned the killer before then - with Bucket's help?
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I've just a few more questions from this installment, before we move on tomorrow.
- The first is another one of those tiny details that may/may not prove to be important - remember when Tulkinghorn checked his watch as the Dedlock's splendid clock struck 7:45? -
"Two minutes wrong" At this rate, you won't last my time," he muttered. Was his watch wrong - or the Dedlocks? Does it matter at all?
I've tucked this little fact away - curious to see whether Dickens has included it here for a reason...
- Next - possibly another insignificant detail - Tulkinghorn had been sitting in his chair, had just taken a sip or two of his wine. He's found lying face down, in front of his chair - shot through the heart. He must have been facing his assailant then? Probably someone he recognized? I guess I'm wondering who blew out the two candles on the table beside him. I mean, why would the murderer bother to blow out the candles after the murder - after Tulkinghorn had already seen him/her approach?
- The final one - the question of Jo's will. Laura sees two reasons for the title of that chapter - "it could mean his last will and testament, what he leaves behind to those left on earth. or Will could also mean Jo’s desire, or what he wanted."
I think both of those explanations fit here. He asks 'Sangsby' to write in very large letters -"uncommon precious large"
letters - that he was very sorry he did it, never meant to do it, and asked forgiveness. - for Esther's smallpox? Mr. Snagsby promises Jo that he'll do this. I'm looking forward to see whether he does this. Jo wills to be laid out next to Nemo/Captain Hawdon in the berryin ground. This is Esther's father. I don't think we've heard the whole story of Jo's relationship with Hawdon - Of course we haven't heard much about Hawdon at all, have we?
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"My friend...saws away at Mo-zart and Handel, and the rest of the big-wigs...."
Slow as I am, I never thought of the origin of the word "bigwigs" until now-- the mentasl picture of Mozart and Handel in their wigs.
I loved what Dickens did with the clocks that didn't tell Tulkinghorn not to go home.
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Yes, let me echo the wonders of Babi's list - it is Badger and Snagsby that mixed up for me and I have to check on who is who all the time.
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Thought on clocks and time pieces - Clocks are about time, schedules, business and modern man. We are SO dependent on clocks and Tulkinghorn carried one in his pocket. Every second is precious and we all know that "time is money."
Backwards clocks are a symbol for being in the realm of the subconscious - and so, where the beautiful clock in hall at Lincolnshire was presumably slow by two minutes it was not exactly backwards - could indicate that the house was still running with all the magnificence of the past and not keeping up with Tulkinghorn, the modern man who functions within time and therefore, he believes he is better equipped to outlast the Deadlocks magnificence that bolsters their ability, their 'right' to control and keep secrets.
The noting of the time difference was immediately after the war of wills between Lady Deadlock and himself letting us see his battle plan in action as he, Tulkinghorn wants to be the one who controls and be the keeper of all secrets.
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I loved what Dickens did with the clocks that didn't tell Tulkinghorn not to go home.
Yes, that's really good. And the irony of Tulkinghorn telling his slow watch "At this rate you won't last my time." when his time is about to be up.
Indeed, it's his watch that's slow--we've just said how accurate the staircase clock is.
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I have a feeling we'll see those clocks again.
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aha so it is Tulkinghorn's time piece that is 2 minutes slow - a twist in any logic I was trying for - seems to me Rule Britannia continues triumverant in all its magnificence. Unknowing of his imminent death the concept of him being in his subconscious believing he could outgun the Deadlocks in control and secrets may still be his basic thinking hidden even to himself, all the while the watch was slowly ticking away his appointment with death.
Two minutes off - him was the watch hit by the bullet and stopped at the time of death with that two minutes saving George - if George was there and none of us think he did it than someone else had to be in the house at the same time.
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And to think I that little check of the watch a second thought. To me, just a small, quick
clue to Tulkinghorn's smug satisfaction with the outcome of his meeting with Lady Dedlock.
The words, 'you won't last my time' do hold a good deal of irony, tho', don't they?
The question is asked as to how do the various personalities of the story show their character
in regard to Caddie's illness? Now that I come to think of it, we are given a good, quick review
of what kind of person each character is. Each reacts exactly as you would expect them, too.
The good-hearted are concerned and kind. The selfish are concerned only about how it affects
their affairs. Those who love her are devoted to doing all they can for her. Perhaps this is the
reason this illness was included in the story?
ps...thank you for all your kind remarks about the character groupings. It was a lot of work,
but it was work I loved to do.
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What a section! All sorts of things happen, but we STILL don't know who the murderer is. Can't you just imagine the readers tearing their hair when they get to the end of the installment. Bucket knows who did it, his case is almost complete, and they have to wait another month. At least we only have five days.
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Can't you just imagine the readers tearing their hair when they get to the end of the installment. Bucket knows who did it, his case is almost complete, and they have to wait another month. At least we only have five days.
LOL! I agree!
Boy, Dickens was laying it on thick that Lady Dedlock is the murderer! I still don't believe it though. But I am wondering...
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The questions are up for Chapters 50-53. We still don't know whodunnit by the end of 53. I had to sit on my eyes to keep from reading on to find out, but I managed. Anyone who did read on PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T give anything away to the rest of us.
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Chapter 50 - what a nice little chapter - reminds me of in music called a Coda - linking one section of music to another - Caddy's illness allowed Dickens to bring back into the story Woodcourt and for the image of the young Caddy in Ester's lap to foreshadow the dependent relationship Ada had with Esther that sets up a new mystery - what ails Ada - What is Ada's secret - it also sets up the dynamics of Woodcourt versus Bleak House??!!?? not Woodcourt versus John Jarndyce but versus Bleak House - my oh my but that is how Dickens phrases it.
Wasn't there a study some years ago about how pretty children received more attention in school - looks like all anyone had to do was read Dickens - between Ada and Mr. Turveydrop they are proving that life comes to them sparkling and glittering because they please the eye with Turveydrop knowing that is the affect.
I must say I did read a piece that impressed me that suggested when we cut our lawn and paint our houses we are leaving candy for passerbys and so in like manner we should give attention to our outward appearance. Dickens seems to be making the case for inner appearance with Esther as his spokesperson.
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Looks like we are moving along with the Ada's mystery - such a wonderful mood setting paragraph
We were soon equipped and went out. It was a sombre day, and drops of chill rain fell at intervals. It was one of those colourless days when everything looks heavy and harsh. The houses frowned at us, the dust rose at us, the smoke swooped at us, nothing made any compromise about itself or wore a softened aspect. I fancied my beautiful girl quite out of place in the rugged streets, and I thought there were more funerals passing along the dismal pavements than I had ever seen before.
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Ok I am caught - hurry and read to find out what happens next or savor each chapter - as if the chapters for the month were just distributed and some would hustle home and read feeling only anxiety and anticipation for the next months excerpts and others I could imagine reading a chapter a week after Sunday Dinner so they could dwell all week on that part of the story - me oh my - Laura I think your patience mentioned earlier has some real merit.
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Whodunnit? This is a tough one. Have a dozen suspects have been suggested. But how about the guy on the ceiling? Did he play a role in all this? The pointing finger could be seen as accusatory. If we reduce the suspects to those who called on Mr Tulkinghorn, which one looked most often to that painted ceiling? The perpetrator must have felt some moral justification for what he was doing in that pointing finger. Did Mr T represent everything wrong with justice in Victorian England? It seemed to be failing so many. Except the Dedlocks of the land. It makes Hortense such a likely, although ironic, candidate, coming from the land of revolution, and prone to vengeful actions. Was Bleak House meant as a warning. Sir Leicester was convinced things were crumbling.
'Kept guessing to the very end.' I hope I'm not giving anything away by suggesting that even at the end we're left guessing.
The ticking clocks make a great beginning to Mr Tulkinghorn's last mile, with all of nature holding its breath until the shot rings out. He didn't deserve it, surrounded by villains as he was. He always acted professionally. He chose the wrong office.
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Lady Dedlock is too haunted to commit murder. I see Esther as the ghost in this story.
Mr Guppy? Absolutely not. He woud know it's against the law.
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Now Jonathan, there's a thought! Will we be left guessing at the end? Oh, I hope not! Couldn't stand another Edwin Drood - but understood why that had no ending. Can you think of another Dickens' novel without a clear ending?
I loved the the walk in the dark, alternating the description of the lady and the lawyer. - Did you get the feeling that Lady Dedlock was following Tulkinghorn home? She did go out through the garden gate - immediately after he left the house. But no, I can't believe that she had a gun and followed him home and shot him in the heart. Did Dickens convince any of his readers that she was desperate enough to kill him to keep him from revealing her secret to her husband?
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The new installment - an abrupt change of scenery to Caddy's sickroom. No one seems to have heard about the murder yet. Not surprising that Caddy sent for Esther, who else, but her poor little baby's godmother. Why is the baby portrayed as such a pathetic little thing? The grandmother is there - Mrs. Jellyby. We're told she visits her sick daughter but not paying any attention to her ailing daughter - or to little Esther, her granddaughter. I'm wondering why she bothered to come to visit. No, I wonder why Dickens even brought her into the room. Will these characters play a role in the upcoming chapters? I'm not sure we are all gathered at Caddy's home, except to bring Esther, John Jarndyce and Allan Woodcourt into the same room.
It appears that Esther hasn't told him - or anyone - of the engagement yet. Do you notice how she avoids using the word, "engagement" - always talks about becoming Mistress of Bleak House -
Woodcourt seems to be planning another trip. Jarndyce wants to make him rich. Why is that? Does he appear needy? Does he have a medical practice? He doesn't seem to have any paying patients since his return.
Is Esther showing any interest in Woodcourt?
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I think there was some mention of Woodcourt assisting Mr. Badger, for which he would get paid. Woodcourt does seem to have trouble getting established, though, and Jarndyce wants him to have money so he can settle down and not have to go to sea again.
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Ah, thank you, BARB. Of course...Caddy's illness was used to bring Esther and
Woodcourt together again. That explains it.
Oh, Jonathan, I do hope we're not left 'guessing' about anything at the end of
the book. Surely it's only more modern authors who leave their readers with blank
expressions, thinking, 'What? What was that all about?!!' Dickens is much nicer
about letting us know how everyone is doing at the end of his books.
So, what's next? Are we ready for Ch. 51? I am eager to move on; so much is
happening.
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Not only Esther and Woodcourt (if, in fact, they do get together) but also Ada and Richard. Now that Ada is of age, she doesn't need permission to marry, and so they do, rather impulsively. "It was not a long-considered step. We went out one morning and were married." What happened to putting up the banns and having to wait 3 weeks?
And all the action is in London. They need to be there for the murder, George's arrest, etc.
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When it was clear there was something wrong with Ada - something she couldn't talk to Esther about, I thought of two scenarios - that she had fallen in love with Allan or that she was pregnant. She's not pregnant, I gather - but she did marry Richard, banns or no banns, Pat..
Before moving into the Ada/Richard chapter, I'd like to share some information I found on the question in the heading - regarding the reference to "rich as a Jew." Something we don't see too often in modern literature...but was this stereotype prevalent in the 19th century? My first thought was of Fagin in Oliver Twist, written in 1838 - 14 years before Bleak House. I did a bit of research on the reference to Jews in the 19th century - found this...
"In nineteenth-century English literature, the most common portrayal of a Jew was a negative racial stereotype. In society, and thus in literature, Jews were often seen in terms of their “otherness”—their difference in appearance, social standing, religion and morality with respect to their non-Jewish counterparts.
Even when Jews gained political equality in England with the passage of numerous reforms and a rise in realism in fiction caused novelists writing in the mid-1800s to look increasingly to real life rather than to established stereotypes as inspiration for their writing, Jews were (aside from a few more balanced portrayals) still depicted in extreme terms: as completely evil or as impossibly virtuous; as people seeking complete assimilation into English culture or as adamantly separatist; as wealthy politicians and international financiers or as lowly impoverished immigrants.
Charles Dickens produced one of the most famous examples of the stereotypical “evil Jew”—the character of Fagin in Oliver Twist (1838). Certain novelists attempted in later novels to “atone” for a negative portrayal of Jews in earlier novels."
http://site.iugaza.edu.ps/rareer/contact/courses/victorian-age/the-portrayal-of-jews-in-nineteenth-century-english-literature
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When I saw that remark in the book, it horrified me, made me really feel the difference between then and now. I'm not used to such talk anymore, and it leaves a bad taste.
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Not knowing the information you found JoanP my reaction was maybe it was a mixed message of admiration - my thought was based on the Jews were kicked out of England as they were in Spain and a few other European nations in the very late sixteenth and early seventeenth century with the King of England needing the money and loans provided by families like the Rothechilds so that the wealthy Jews of England remained under the protection of the King.
It was during the reign of Victoria that the Rothechilds were elevated to nobility which is when they were blessed with the largest private fortune in the world. The Rothechilds were major bankers in Paris and in Austria where they were honored with noble titles in the early nineteenth century before Dickens wrote this book - and close to his writing Bleak House, in 1847, Sir Anthony de Rothschild was made a hereditary baronet of the United Kingdom.
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It is interesting to me that we can come up with many good reasons why each character could not have committed the murder, but not as many reasons as to why any of them could have murdered Mr. Tulkinghorn. I think that says something about how Dickens intentionally constructed the book and the characters. I don’t think we are supposed to be able to figure it out. But, gosh Jonathan, to be left hanging? Well, it would depend on how the author handled leaving us up in the air…
I was surprised to find out that Esther had not told anyone about her engagement. Odd.
I don’t think Esther has any romantic interest in Mr. Woodcourt.
“I saw a good deal of Mr. Woodcourt during this time, though not so much as might be supposed; for, knowing Caddy to be safe in his hands, I often slipped home at about the hours when he was expected. We frequently met, notwithstanding. I was quite reconciled to myself now; but I still felt glad to think that he was sorry for me, and he still was sorry for me I believed.”
The characters who visited Caddy were all very much “in character.” I didn’t read anything that surprised me.
I was shocked to find out that Ada and Richard had married! I had noticed a clue in the prior chapter.
“And I noticed as I kissed my dear, that she lay with one hand under her pillow so that it was hidden.”
That detail struck me as a bit odd. That’s why I remembered it. If we are expected to notice one sentence clues like this one throughout the book, it is no wonder this book takes such a detailed reading and time for digestion!
The end of the chapter leaves Esther fearing, “I might not have been all I had meant to be, since the letter and the answer.” Esther appears to be as confused as to how to act in her relationship with Mr. Jarndyce as I am about how they should be acting!
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There really is very little good to say about Dicken's attitude to Jews and Judaism. He spoke to the masses and wrote what they wanted to hear on this subject.
However, another writer, living about the same time as Dickens, George Elliot (Mary Ann Evans 1819-1880),had a very different understanding and attitude toward this subject.
Virginia Woolf has called Elliot's "Middlemarch" ,one of the few English novels for grown up people."
In her final book, Daniel Deronda,Elliot features the quest of the Hero to discover and embrace his Jewish birthright and seek a political destiny in Palestine. Indeed , though not Jewish, she was one of the forerunners of Zionism. This was based on her belief that moral elevation is tied to a persons religous and national identity. She forsaw the need for a national identity in Palestine for the Jewish People.
What an amazing woman!
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There really is very little good to say about Dicken's attitude to Jews and Judaism. He spoke to the masses and wrote what they wanted to hear on this subject.
However, another writer, living about the same time as Dickens, George Elliot (Mary Ann Evans 1819-1880),had a very different understanding and attitude toward this subject.
Virginia Woolf has called Elliot's "Middlemarch" ,one of the few English novels for grown up people."
In her final book, Daniel Deronda,Elliot features the quest of the Hero to discover and embrace his Jewish birthright and seek a political destiny in Palestine. Indeed , though not Jewish, she was one of the forerunners of Zionism. This was based on her belief that moral elevation is tied to a persons religous and national identity. She forsaw the need for a national identity in Palestine for the Jewish People.
What an amazing woman!
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Sorry for the double post. How it happened is too silly and too complex to tell you.
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;) :D All is meant to be - we hear you... :-*
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JUDE: goodpoints about the difference between Dickens and Eliot. We are all prisoners of the times in which we live, and often adopt the prejudices of those times without thinking. Only exceptional people (like Eliot) can see beyond them.
"Jews were often seen in terms of their “otherness”—"
George Simmel (a Jew) In his essay "The Stranger" said "I write not of the stranger who is here today and gone tomorrow but of the stranger who is here today and still here tomorrow."
I was reminded of this by Dickens' description of Bucket: "Like man in the abstract, he is here today and gone tomorrow-- but very like man indeed, he is here again the next day."
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Dickens attitude towards Jews could be looked at according to which of his books you read - Fagin in "Oliver Twist" is considered a direct hit at the Jew. However, he writes Riah in "Our Mutual Friend," as a character at the other extreme—almost impossibly, certainly improbably, good. In both "Oliver Twist" and "Our Mutual Friend" Dickens does stereotype publicly accepted characteristics but from opposite points of view.
I just do not see John Jarndyce as a character with malice or ill will and so I am still betting on Dickens reference to the wealthiest man in the world living in England was a Jew and was honored, raised to Baronet and further in 1850 another Rothechild became the first practising Jewish member of the British Parliament. Seems to me Dickens was about changing opinion and John Jarndyce is a character, along with Esther for women that optimize the nobleness in kindness and providing care and security to others. I guess like anything we read into it what we want based on where we are at - I think it was a sly way of giving honor celebrating who achieved the greatest wealth.
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Actually, I don't think Dickens meant a darn thing by his comment. It was a knee-jerk reaction to him, like saying "red-headed Scotsman", and that's what bothered me.
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The running footman, like a Mercury - cannot find anything that says directly but it appears that running footmen could be all called Mercuries. Which gives new meaning to the encounter with Bucket and the Mercury at the entry.
My Lord's running footman] I have often seen skimming or flying across the road; one of them I particularly remember; his dress, a white jacket, blue silk sash round his waist, light black-velvet cap, with a silver tassel on the crown, round his neck a frill with a ribbon, and in his hand a staff about seven feet high with a silver top. He looked so agile, and seemed all air like a Mercury: he never minded the roads, but took the shortest cut, and by the help of his pole absolutely seemed to fly over hedge, ditch and small river
Chosen for their endurance as well as their speed, running footmen served several purposes. On journeys, the running footman ran ahead of his master's coach to announce his arrival at inns or other houses. In a time when bad roads were a part of all travel, he could run forward and return with reports on conditions ahead. He could be sent to carry important messages or packages, or to summon a physician in an emergency. For some masters, the running footman was also considered a status-symbol for sport, and like a prized thoroughbred horse or dog, and raced against other footmen with hefty wagers on the outcome.
As a combination long-distance runner and bike-messenger, running footmen could be fast indeed, with the best ones recorded as covering seven miles in an hour, and capable of running sixty miles in a day – although, like horses, no one expected them to do this day after day. Costume and livery varied, but a long staff in the hand was a constant, used as a symbolic mark of the position, as a pole to help leap over brooks, and as a weapon to fend off dogs. It also could carry refreshment. The decorative, silver-headed top of the staff often had a small compartment for wine, or, in some cases, to carry a hard-boiled egg.
As roads improved in the 19th c., running footmen gradually disappeared – they live on in the names of several famous English pubs and taverns.
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Interesting sideline there, JOAN. I immediately thought of Shakespeare's "Merchant
of Venice". While his character is presented with many of the Jewish stereotypes,
he also presented the Jew's anger at this treatment.
Shylock: I am a Jew. ..... If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you
tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die?
"I was quite reconciled to myself now; but I still felt glad to think that he was
sorry for me, and he still was sorry for me I believed.” Laura, it seemed to me
that Esther's use of the word 'reconciled' meant that she did have at least dreams
of a future with Alan Woodcourt. She gave them up when she accepted John Jarndyce's
proposal, but she was glad to think Woodcourt cared enough to be sorry for her.
Loved the info about the mercuries, BARB. It's fascinating, and explains for me
how messages and notes could be written and replied to so swiftly in those times.
We're looking at Ada and Richard again, and I wanted to note this.. Dickens, writing of the changes that have taken place in Richard’s appearance, speaking thru’ Esther, makes an observation and comment. He writes, “But the commentary upon it is now
indelibly written in his handsome face, made it far more distressing than it used to be. I say indelibly; for I felt persuaded that if the fatal cause could have been for ever terminated, according to its brightest visions, in that same hour, the traces of the premature anxiety, self-reproach, and disappointment it had occasioned him, would have remained upon his features to the hour of his death.”
What do you think? If by some miracle Jarndyce and Jarndyce were brought to a successful
close and Richard had his fortune (what was left of it), would success and prosperity have restored him? Would he be triumphant and feel it was all worthwhile, and proved how right he was? Even so, would the traces of bitterness, anxiety, cynicism and suspicion still leave their
mark?
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Not to belabor the point...well, maybe I am, but must add a bit to yesterday's conversation. Dickens isn't here to explain his position or defend himself but maybe his actions can put his his comment on rich Jews in Bleak House in perspective . Perhaps it's noteworthy that this was the only instance in which he mentions Jews in the entire lengthy novel.
"We are all prisoners of the times in which we live, and often adopt the prejudices of those times without thinking." JoanK
Earlier we have spoken of Dickens' habit of incorporating friends, neighbors, acquaintances into the characters in his episodes. Readers delighted in recognizing these actual personnages in his work.
Fagin is noted for being one of the few characters of 19th century English literature, let alone any of Dickens's pieces, who is described as Jewish. Dickens took Fagin's name from a friend he had known in his youth while working in a boot-blacking factory, but Fagin's character was based on a well-known criminal, Ikey Solomon, who was a fence at the centre of a highly-publicised arrest, escape, recapture, and trial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikey_Solomon
Some background on Dickens behavior following the early publication of Oliver Twist - "The first 38 chapters of the book refer to Fagin 257 times, calling him "the Jew", with just 42 uses of "Fagin" or "the old man".
In later editions of the book printed during his lifetime, Dickens excised many of the references to Fagin's Jewishness, removing over 180 instances of 'Jew' from the first edition text.This occurred after Dickens sold his London home to a Jewish banker, James Davis in 1860, and became acquainted with him and his wife Eliza, who objected to the emphasis on Fagin's Jewishness in the novel.
In one of his final public readings in 1869, a year before his death, Dickens cleansed Fagin of all stereotypical caricature."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagin
Can we conclude from this that when Dickens portrayed Fagin in "Oliver Twist", he was creating a character who, as Jude says, "spoke to the masses and wrote what they wanted to hear on this subject" - in order to entertain them? But that when he became aware that the "pricking" was painful, he "atoned" as other mid nineteenth c. writers had begun to do?
I'm inclined to conclude that his one comment in Bleak House was not intended to be hurtful to a people, or express anything but perhaps admiration in hoping that Allan Woodcourt could be so fortunate. But again, we see things from where we are sitting...
It just occurred - that since this mention is one detail - and Dickens has slipped in these single details that have become important in the story, maybe there is a reason, for including it here, rather than view the comment as a thoughtless inclusion?
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"I don’t think we are supposed to be able to figure it out." Laura, that'a an interesting thought. You might be right. I do think though, that we will have many "aha" moments as the story unravels - remembering the details that seemed unimportant at the time we read them. As group, I think we've done a remarkable job picking up on them - and will not feel we've been unfairly led to the conclusion without haven't been provided necessary information. In other words, we might not be able to figure it out, but we won't be surprised when we reach the end. Well, not too surprised, anyway. :D
Barbara, very interesting information on the role of the Mercuries in the story. I'm sure they possess a lot of information, knowing so well the road between Chesney Wold and the townhouse. In a very early chapter, Norton provides a footnote describing the role of the god, Mercury -, adding a rather ominous dimension to their role in the story -
This reference occurs as "the old gentleman, {Mr. Tulkinghorn} is escorted by a Mercury in powder*, to my Lady's presence."
*"a footman whose hair has been powdered. One of the roles of the god Mercury was to conduct the souls of the dead to Hades."
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“I saw a good deal of Mr. Woodcourt during this time, though not so much as might be supposed; for, knowing Caddy to be safe in his hands, I often slipped home at about the hours when he was expected. We frequently met, notwithstanding. I was quite reconciled to myself now; but I still felt glad to think that he was sorry for me, and he still was sorry for me I believed.”
I think that dear Esther protests too much. She says she is "quite reconciled" but I sense stronger feelings for Mr. Woodcourt than she wants to admit. Why does she want to slip home at times when she knows he will be visiting Caddy? She seems glad that he has feelings for her, even though she thinks they are from pity. "...and he still was sorry for me I believed.” She admits she has been interpreting his feelings (she believes his looks, words, actions stem from being sorry for her.) It seems that he has been paying attention to Esther. Maybe there is more on his part than pity.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmrsbagnet.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmrsbagnet.jpg)
Mrs. Bagnet Returns from her Expedition
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
XVII
XVIII |
DATE of PUBLICATION
July 1853
Aug. 1853 |
CHAPTERS
54-56
57-59 |
DISCUSSION DATES
May 6-May 10
May 11- May 15 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illlonelyfigure.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illlonelyfigure.jpg)
The Lonely Figure
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
Chapter LIV Springing a Mine
1. What was you reaction to Detective Bucket's confrontation with Smallweed?
2. Bucket confronts Mademoiselle Hortense. What new view of the French do you find here? How does that fit with other comments we've read re. the French?
3. Detective Bucket is always very formal in addressing Sir Leicester. How does Dickens explain that?
Chapter LV Flight
1. What do you think of Mrs. Bagnet's decision to override George's wishes? Do you agree with her assessment of his situation?
2. Did you feel Dickens handled the reunion of mother and son well? Are you satisfied with George's explanation?
3. How do you see Mr. Guppy's last interview with Lady Dedlock? Does it alter your view of him?
Chapter LVI Pursuit
1. All is revealed. What is the immediate result with Sir Dedlock? With Lady Dedlock?
2. What new role does George Rouncewell assume at this time?
3. How does Detective Bucket impress you as a detective? How does he compare with your favorite fictional detectives of later days?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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It's a good thing Allan Woodcourt has promised Esther to stay close to Richard. Richard needs a friend, other than Mr. Vholes. Allan is a rather powerful ally in his own way. I loved it when he told Mr. Vholes that he has no interest in anything Vholes had to say. And did you notice that he didn't stoop to offer Vholes money to tell him Richard's address, in spite of Vholes' telling him how funds were needed?
Babi, l even if the Jarndyce vs. Jarndyce case came turned out to be in Richard's favor, surely lawyer's fees, such as Mr. Vholes' will make sure that Richard will have to continue with suits against the lawyers forever after. I can't see a bright future for Richard - or for Ada. Unless something out of the ordinary occurs. Was Mr. Tulkinghorn behind Mr. Vholes' involvement in the case? Does anyone remember? - I thought T was involved somehow. I wonder if his death will have an impact on the case, don't you? Maybe things will get moving now. We have only a few chapters to go...
Marcie, let's say Allan does care for Esther. Why isn't he making that clear to her? Do you think he knows about her engagement?
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JoanP says: " let's say Allan does care for Esther. Why isn't he making that clear to her? Does he know about her engagement? "
Allan went to India(?) to try to earn more money but did not come back a rich man. Now that he is back, his practice does not seem to be doing any better financially than it was before he left. I don't think he wants to take Esther away from the financial protection of Mr. Jarndyce without more to offer her.
Also, Esther isn't giving him many, if any, clues about her romantic feelings toward him.
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Such irony then! Mr. Jarndyce wanting to find a way to make Allan rich... "rich enough to have his own happy home."
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Talk about kicking a tin can after it is bent, used, but golly, still lying there - I do see that we can learn and that is why many of us read - and so in the name of further exploration, I think the 'Rich as a Jew' statement reminds me of today how some say in Awe that we have a Blackman as our President and others say Sarcastically we have a Blackman as President.
As to the view of Jews in Britain during the nineteenth century - it appears change was taking place and Dickens was caught in that change - found this that is further information - It appears in the early part of the nineteenth century publicly Jews were a people apart because laws forced Jews into jobs that dressing and acting like Fagin could be an easy stereotype. And so with that view yes, 'Rich as a Jew' would be a unthinkable put down - however, this information may give us another picture of as you say the only few words in Bleak House that refer to Jews.
Sir Robert Peel, an avid anti-Semite and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1834 to 1848, articulated the period's feelings towards Jews: "The Jew is not a degraded subject of the state; he is rather regarded in the light of an alien- he is excluded because he will not amalgamate with us in any of his usages or habits."
The hostility towards Jews was caused by their jobs. In London, most Jews were not allowed to open shops or attend college. This forced them to become money lenders and clothes dealers. Church laws prevented Christians from lending money at interest, but these laws did not apply to Jews. The phobia surrounding Jews led to public opinion that every Jew was scary, mean, money hungry, and would not hesitate to cheat a Christian. Jews were also separated as a result of their religion. They were treated as foreigners and persecuted because they held fast to their religion and traditions by refusing to become Christians during a time when Christianity was the dominant religion.
The attitude of early to mid-nineteenth century Victorians from the 1830s to the 1850s changed the social opinions of Jews. A growing literary trend of a sympathetic treatment of Jews, many individuals modified their traditional views. These changing social patterns and Dickens's communication with Mrs. Davis, a Jewish woman, directly influenced Our Mutual Friend.
Mrs. Davis wrote to Dickens in June 1863 stating, "that Charles Dickens the large hearted, whose works please so eloquently and so nobly for the oppressed of his country . . . has encouraged a vile prejudice against the despised Hebrew." Dickens responded by stating that he had always spoken well of Jews and held no prejudice against them. Fagin, in Oliver Twist, was a Jew "because it unfortunately was true of the time to which that story refers that class of criminal almost invariably was Jewish." Mrs. Davis replied by beseeching Dickens to "examine more closely into the manners and character of the British Jews and to represent them as they really are."
In his article, "Dickens and the Jews," Harry Stone claims that this "incident apparently brought home to Dickens the irrationality of some of his feelings about Jews; at any rate, it helped, along with the changing times, to move him more swiftly in the direction of active sympathy for them."
While in Oliver Twist, Fagin is portrayed as money hungry and ruthless, Dickens later creates the character Riah in Our Mutual Friend. Riah's is also a moneylender and could be construed as an early Victorian stereotype; however, as Harry Stone argues, "Riah's stereotype was not a stereotype, but a means of reversing it."
Challenging Jewish stereotypes in Our Mutual Friend, "Riah", whose name is said to be derived from Hebrew rē'eh (friend), is a profoundly sympathetic character, especially in his relationship with Lizzie and Jenny Wren. Riah becomes their protector. Jenny calls him her "fairy godmother" and Lizzie refers to Riah as her "protector."
Instead of being stingy and mean, Riah shows his charity by helping Lizzie find a job in the country - Riah is not out only for himself like Dickens's previous depiction of Jews. Riah risks his own welfare to keep Lizzie's hidden location a secret from Fledgeby. - Riah "the Jew" is not money hungry; his Christian master Fledgeby is.
Granted, the letter from Mrs. Davis was written after Bleak House was published. therefore, it can be a toss up, since views were changing, what Dickens meant with his one line reference to the wealth of Jews as a great mark of achievement - I still cannot get out of my mind that Dickens was influenced by the news and would know the elevation to peerage for the wealthiest man in England who was Jewish along with another Jewish man sitting in Parliament.
Regardless, today we can read, as you say JoanP and based on where we are at we can take from a novel what we will - There is a quote I like from Cormac McCarthy that for me expresses the heart of most people and how I perceive the heart of Dickens..."No creature can learn that which his heart has no shape to hold."
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I'm sorry about the 'left guessing' comment. It was a 'thoughtless inclusion' like Dickens's use of 'the rich Jew.' Bleak House is brought to a very satisfactory ending, with nothing left to guess about, except perhaps about the meaning of it all, or, what is he going to write next? Or, what am I going to read next. I've acquired half a dozen of his books since we've started discussing him, as well as a couple of biographies. I get very ambitiious with every book discussion.
How could Dickens do that to his friend Fagin? How could he do it to his friend Leigh Hunt in Bleak House in the character of Skimpole? Everything and everybody is grist for an author's mill, it seems. Actually I assumed that Smallweed is Jewish, with those numerous mentions of his skullcap. It must have been a popular stereotype to use in the fiction writing of the time. Hurrah for George Eliot for setting the record straight.
Can Richard recover from the effect of getting mired in the lawsuit? Not likely. He's permanently scarred. Like Esther, the victim of uncontrolled disease.
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Mr Jarndyce wants to make a rich man of Woodcourt? Many people have come to him for help, as we have seen. And he is always eager to help. Esther is only one of his good deeds. He has always wanted her happiness. He's concerned about her welfare. Can we see Mrs Woodcourt coming to Mr Jarndyce to see if he can do something for her son. We read about, we hear from Esther, that she has again come to town and is staying at the Jarndyce place. I suspect some matchmaking on the part of one or the other.
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BARB: fascinating information about the flying footmen and about the change in Dickens' attitude toward Jews. Thank you for your good research. Could you post your sources?
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I'm glad to hear that Dickens, once he had more knowledge and personal contact with Jews, was able to see his prejudice and reverse it. There are a few people who, for some reason, seem to have a deep need to find someone to look down on. But for every one of those, there are many, like Dickens, who go along with it from lack of thought, not realizing the harm they do.
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I think that Esther is still as attracted to Woodhouse as ever but, feeling it's impossible that he should care for her in that way, is trying to suppress her feelings. She "loves Jarndyce as a daughter, and is stuggling against the sadness she feels at (as she thinks) giving up the possability of another kind of love. So she is attracted to Woodhouse, but tries to avoid him, is glad he is not repulsed by her (as Guppy was) and tries to be glad to settle for pity.
I doubt Dickens will leave her like this.
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Interesting, JOANP. It's good to know Dickens would go back and change something
in one of his books when he learned better. I wish I could do the same for some of
my mistakes.
As I recall, it was Skimpole who introduced Richard to Vholes. His motives were
simple...money changed hands!
Such irony then! Mr. Jarndyce wanting to find a way to make Allan rich... "rich
enough to have his own happy home."
Do you think it's irony? I suspect that Jarndyce is not blind to Esther's feelings, or Allan's. I believe he is happily plotting to play fairy godmother to Esther once more, and ensure her happiness.
I get very ambitiious with every book discussion
. Jonathan.
Don't we all!
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Jonathan - before I forget again - the close vote between Bleak House and Great Expectations back in February has not been forgotten - and the promise to do Great Expectations too. It's on the schedule for July. Are you in? The PBS adaptation was so unlike Dickens' novel, I think we owe him a close look.
Aha, Babi - you see John Jarndyce plotting to ensure Esther's happiness - if he makes Allan rich, he'll be good enough for Esther...meanwhile Mrs. Woodcourt looks down on Esther as not a good enough wife for her son. Well, yes, that's even more ironic.
It gets better.
Esther says "I feared I might not quite have been all that I meant to be since the letter and the answer."
Esther harbors these unexamined feelings for Allan, while beating up on herself for not feeling, or acting like someone who has just accepted a marriage proposal - a romantic proposal, wasn't it? Maybe if she rereads the letter more carefully, she'll see that John Jarndyce has asked her merely to be the "Mistress of Bleak House" - Can you forsee a scenario in which Esther remains Mistress of Bleak House, but also wife of Allan Woodcourt? Is that what John Jarndyce has in mind for her?
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Will Tulkinghorn's death prove to be the impetus that brings Jarndyce vs Jarndyce to a conclusion? It seems that all can be resolved, once this happens - though I don't know how. Mr. George is accused of Tulkinghorn's death. No one really believes he did it. Mere truth is not enough. He needs a lawyer. Mr. George knows a lawyer can get him off - even if he's guilty. Would rather hang. So how is he persuaded to defend himself?
Esther realizes that if Mr. George didn't do it - and a woman who looked much like herself was seen at the crime scene...Dickens tells us Esther is frightened. Do you think she believes her mother could have done it? Or does it mean that she's afraid her mother will be blamed for the death?
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Re Esther's fears.
When someone you know, be he friend or enemy is murdered you are struck by fear. The fear is usually not related to the name of the perpetrator but to : Who will be next? Am I in danger?
I don't think Esther is aware enough of the ins and outs of the politicking and underhanded behavior of Tulkinghorn to understand why he was really murdered.
Not knowing ,'WHY" increases the persons fear meter.
She may be as worried about her Mother being the next victim as she is of her being the perpetraator..if that thought occurred to her at all.
About the jewish question in England at the time. this was the period that Disraeli, an Anglicied
politician, born Jewish was very prominent in British Politics. He was one of the first Jewsish(or born Jewish) men to succeed in penetrating the rampant anti-semitism in the political sphere.
Disraeli was a very forward looking man and helped to make many changes in the British system that benifitted the average citizen.
And would you believe it? In his spare time he wrote and published many novels!
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I thank everyone for your well researched comments.
Poor Richard. I don’t see that he can recover from being sucked into the lawsuit. The only hope I see is if it were settled immediately. Even if he doesn’t come out of the settlement with any money left, at least he would be young enough to pursue some kind of career. And Mr. Jarndyce would still be around to help place him in one. I think Dickens is making Richard an example of the type of people he talked about in the beginning of the book --- those who get caught up in the web of the lawsuit and can’t find their way out.
JoanP asked, “Can you forsee a scenario in which Esther remains Mistress of Bleak House, but also wife of Allan Woodcourt? Is that what John Jarndyce has in mind for her?”
This is a very good question. It had not occurred to me that the positions were not mutually exclusive! I bet there is a scenario, but I am not sure what that scenario is. This gives me food for thought as I read on though.
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What night did Esther and Caddy go back and re-visit Richard and Ada - could it be that Esther was concerned she would be accused.
Laura yes, yes, yes, Richard is the stereotype for the quote - "those who get caught up in the web of the lawsuit and can’t find their way out." I wonder how John Jarndyce obtained his money that he seems to be very comfortable without the proceeds of the lawsuit.
JoanK lots of sites - here are a few that I remember visiting -
http://tinyurl.com/6q4euuo
http://tinyurl.com/6td7xtz
http://www.dickens-literature.com/Our_Mutual_Friend/index.html
http://tinyurl.com/7wkbqbr
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5178-dickens-charles
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/a-short-history-of-anglojewry-the-jews-in-britain-16562006-482185.html
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Esther's mother told her that her secret wasn't safe, that Tulkinghorn was close to finding it out, and was her pitiless enemy in this respect. Esther was afraid either that her mother had actually done the murder or would be accused of it or that the secret would come out in the course of the investigation.
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Thanks Barb. You really did a lot of research. We have to be careful about quoting someone without giving the source: some people can really get upset about that.
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I hope that both Woodcourt and Jarndice can wind up happy without Esther having to feel she hurt either. We'll see.
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Poor Esther! What's worse? Believing that your mother might be a murderer's next vicitim - or believing that your own mother might be a murderer herself?!
Esther doesn't believe for a minute that George did it - but when George told her saw someone in a black fringed cloak, a woman who looked so much like Esther herself, outside of Tulkinghorn's minutes before the murder...of course she's frightened, who wouldn't be?
Does Inspector Bucket believe that George committed the murder? Dickens describes him as a "terrible avenger." And yet he is amiable and friendly, almost reaussuring towards George. And why is he spending so much time going through the Dedlock's home - questionning the servants about Lady Dedlock's comings and goings? Despite this apparent shifting of the blame from George to Lady D, do you think any of Dickens readers believe, at this point, that the accusing finger stops with the Lady?
Bucket's finger - you can't help but compare it to the Roman soldier's finger - pointing down from Tulkinghorn's ceiling...
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I can't leave this section without answering the question about "inconsolable carriages". It seems to have been common at that time for only the very close family to attend a funeral and others just to send their carriages as a gesture. Dickens is quite funny here, making fun by personifying the carriages--"four-wheeled affliction". The "three bereaved worms", according to a footnote in my book are footmen posing as mourners, as are "the calves of so many legs steeped in grief". Footmen still wore knee-breeches and stockings, and were chosen for their good appearance in such clothes, including shapely calves.
And by poking fun at this custom, Dickens underlines the fact that nobody really cares for Tulkinghorn, except Sir L.
Here's a reference--the second quote on the page. It was written in 1859 by someone tut-tutting about the practice, so it's probably overstated.
http://www.victorianlondon.org/death/characteroffunerals.htm (http://www.victorianlondon.org/death/characteroffunerals.htm)
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Indeed, yes, PATH. No matter what comes of the investigation, Lady Dedlock is
in danger and Esther is right to be afraid for her. For her, no good can come of
this turn of events.
Detective Bucket on the trail; “He is free with his money, affable in his manners, innocent in his conversation---but, through the placid stream of his life, there glides an undercurrent of forefinger.” The pointing finger emerges yet again. The Roman on the ceiling pointing the
finger at the dead body; the detective ever pointing his alarming forefinger at some quaking
object of his inquiries.
“Drawers, desks, pockets, all things belonging to him, Mr. Bucket examines. A few hours afterwards, he and the Roman will be alone together, comparing forefingers.” To me, small ties like this, linking the story together, are a key to Dickens genius in plotting.
Two small side notes. ‘cocked hat’ notes??? I can only assume that the notes were folded up in a manner that resembled a cocked hat.
Also, the Dedlock cousin who slurs his words is confirmed as suffering from ‘a prostration of boredom’. ‘Vayli’. [ie., ‘very likely’] ::)
And finally, ‘that charmingly horrible person is a perfect Blue Chamber’? (Ms. Volumnia’s description of Detective Bucket) So, what does that mean? I found another use of “Blue Chamber’ in another Dickens book. “Mrs. Snitchey and Mrs. Craggs maintained a close bond of alliance against 'the office,' which they both considered the Blue chamber, and common enemy, full of dangerous (because unknown) machinations. “So it would appear that a person called a Blue Chamber would be seen as dangerous and full of secret machinations.
Hmm, fits, I think.
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My annotated book comes to the rescue, Babi. You're right about the notes. They are notes folded in the three-cornered shape of a cocked hat. I'm not sure whay you would want to do that--seems affected. The note about Blue Chamber says that in one version of the story, Bluebeard's locked room containing the bodies of the wives he has murdered is called the blue Chamber. So it represents anything hiding horrid secrets.
Did anyone notice that one of Volumnia's cocked-hat notes is to "that redoubtable old General at Bath"--the one with the teeth she was dreaming about in an earlier chapter? Tulkinghorn wasn't her only interest.
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I can’t imagine any readers believing that Lady Dedlock committed the murder. I also can’t believe any readers believe that George committed the murder. George doesn’t seem to be bothered by what the outcome of the charges against him is, as long as those he cares about believe his innocence. I am glad that his friends aren’t just standing by.
This is a good question --- does Mr. Bucket believe George is guilty? I didn’t question that, but maybe I should have.
As Pat says, nobody really cares for Mr. Tulkinghorn, except for Sir Leicester. Sir Leicester is willing to pay a large sum of money to cover any expenses of finding the killer. This seems suspicious to me. Is it just that Sir Leister wants justice for the murder of his friend, or is he trying to keep covered up whatever secrets Mr. Tulkinghorm knew that Sir Leister fears the murderer may also know?
The anonymous notes with Lady Dedlock written on them are a mystery to me! Realistically, not that many people at this time could write well, so that could be a clue as to the sender.
There is not much left of the book! I am anxious to see how all these loose ends are going to come together!
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PatH, I am so glad that you focus our attention on Tulkinghorn's funeral cortege. Not only Dickens magnificent depiction of the funeral, the personification of the cortege - but also the link you provided. This from that link -
"Among the aristocracy when a person dies, unless he is some great general or other public character, no one attends the funeral except the immediate family of the deceased. Friends of the family send only their empty carriages. I have frequently seen a magnificent hearse, attended by many hired mourners and one carriage containing the immediate family of the deceased following the hearse, then a long train of empty carriages of all kinds and descriptions"
What struck me - there was no one from Tulkinghorn's immediate family. Not a single relative! And his only friend was Sir Leicester. And he did NOT send an empty carriage. To me this indicated how close the two men were. Closer than a lawyer/client relationship. Do you think we'll learn more about that in the coming chapters?
Laura, if not Mr. George, if not Lady Dedlock, who do you suspect? In this last section, doesn't Bucket give the impression that he knows who it is? He says the investigation is going on "beautifully" - from his point of view. I would be very disappointed if a new suspect is introduced in the final three installments of the book, wouldn't you? I honestly don't think Dickens would do this to us.
There's one character who got my attention in the last chapter of this installment - the one who slurs his words Babi referred to - the cousin described as "debilitated" -over and over, never by name. Is he new to the story. He was the one who commented about the importance of settling the case right away - "far better to hang the wrong fler than no fler." Not sure what a "fler" is - but I really don't like this guy and wonder why Dickens is giving him a speaking part this late in the story.
But this wasn't the big news in this month's Installment - Bucket's masterful "interview" with Mercury, after many compliments on his physique seems to cinch the case...Did you think that too? He is the witness who can attest to the fact that Lady D followed Tulkinghorn out of the house shortly before the murder.
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the one who slurs his words Babi referred to - the cousin described as "debilitated" -over and over, never by name. Is he new to the story.
He isn't new to the story--we met him in chapter XL, when the Dedlock clan coalesced to help with the election. (I thought he was somewhere else too, but if so I can't find it.) He was just as hard to understand there. I think a "fler" must be a fellow (feller).
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Oh, I know what you mean about going back and trying to find the "debilitated" cousin's earlier dialogue, PatH! :D
The word "debilitated" is used freqently in the last chapter to describe this cousin - who wants to see anyone hanged for the murder and be done with it. Thanks for "fler" - It's obvious now that you tell me! Don't you find yourself asking after the first few times - how exactly IS his debilitated? He certainly is not painted in sympathetic tones - nor is Volumina. But what do you think of Sir Leicester now?
Another new character introduced iin this last chapter - Mrs. Bucket- and her new lodger. I thought this was a new character being introduced at this late date - until reading the new Installment.
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Unfortunately, LAURA, other books I have read on this period suggest that the police,
so terribly underpaid, were not very diligent in investigating a death unless someone
offered a reward. Not only underpaid, but shorthanded as well. Sir Leicester knew
what it would take to get some serious attention in Tulkinghorn's death.
Not that I mean to detract from Detective Bucket in any way, but lawyer Tulkinghorn
was far more likely to get the benefits of his attention than a less important victim.
I love Bucket! I was so delighted when Detective Bucket managed to squelch Smallweed, at
least for the moment. Smallweed is the most horrible old man!
JOAN, my own personal opinon is that the languid 'fler' who couldn't be bothered
to speak distinctly was simply another one of those upper class types that Dickens
loved to mock. I suspect he probably knew just such a person, and gleefully satirized
him here.
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Laura, if not Mr. George, if not Lady Dedlock, who do you suspect? In this last section, doesn't Bucket give the impression that he knows who it is? He says the investigation is going on "beautifully" - from his point of view. I would be very disappointed if a new suspect is introduced in the final three installments of the book, wouldn't you? I honestly don't think Dickens would do this to us.
Well, having read all of the next installment yesterday, I don't dare say who I think did it! I will repeat that the way Dickens constructed the story, I don't think he expected his readers to be able to solve the crime. We could have suspicions, but not much else.
Yes, Bucket seems to have the mystery solved. I look forward to talking about the next section of reading!
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JOAN, my own personal opinon is that the languid 'fler' who couldn't be bothered
to speak distinctly was simply another one of those upper class types that Dickens
loved to mock. I suspect he probably knew just such a person, and gleefully satirized
him here.
I agree. And his speech was an affectation, rather than the result of his "debilitation".
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Wow this Dickens guy sure knows how to play chess with his characters - no straight up checkers solving this crime - all the way I thought he was implicating Lady Deadlock and then neat as a pin he turns the tale -
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Pat
I disagree about the "dotty cousin".
I thought from the first introduction to him Dickens was showing us that strange and weird people are found in families of the Gentry as well as among the poor.
This was an important point for the time and a good way to show a reality that existed but was not talked about.
To me, this man seemed to have some severe problems with his garbled speech and lack of energy.
If he wasn't supported by Sir Dedlock he would be penniless and wandering the streets or in an
asylum somewhere.
The fact that Sir D. does support him also shows us that Sir D has some compassion in his soul for those who belong to him and depend upon his largesse.
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I keep wondering what Bucket's position is. Sometimes, he acts like a private detective, sometimes like a member of the police. In the section we are coming to, he refers to himself as "Bucket of the Detectives". But if he has an official position, would he have been working first for Tulkinghorn, then for Sir L.? Do any notes help with this?
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This post may contain spoilers. Just look at that. We're approaching one thousand posts. Hasn't it been fun! And games, when you consider Dickens's clever plotting. And his use of smoke and mirrors, or should I say fog and frescoes?
Who murdered Mr Tulkinghorn? I regret now finishing the book and having the suspense go out of it. I was not only disappointed but left incredulous. Dickens, I'm sorry to say, needed outside help to arrive at his sorry ending. Not that it lacks logic. With hindsight it seems almost obvious. Who in the tale is temperamently inclined and sorely motivated to commit murder? And who would like to hit two birds with one stone?
'I honestly don't think Dickens would do this to us." Don't count on it, Joan. We won't be the first readers to be disappointed. Readers have wept over the deaths of favorite characters. I weep over Mr Tulkinghorn. He did nothing to deserve his fate. Now, if the High Chancellor had been murdered, that I could understand.
Sure, I'll be there for GREAT EXPECTATIONS. I hope I'm not let down. Not a chance. Always a great read with Dickens.
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hi there
may I intrude....I have an idea that came to me yesterday as to who the murderer is.....perhaps Hortenese....wasn't she with T. one time and she seemed angry or upset by what they were talking about, then she seemed to leave the book for awhile....H. was very upset to be dismissed by L. D. and was seething at the bit; I wouldn't put it past her, knowing many of L. D.'s habits from working so closely with her and seeing her trying to get rid of her headaches by walking, she could easily be spying on her and knowing how she impersonated L.D. one time and felt she got away with this, she could easily kill T. one day and the world seeing her silhouette would believe it was L. D.
--this would on one hand get back at L. D. and at the same time get T. off her back (or whatever their argument was about, make her feel better; though what an extreme thing to do to justify feeling better, I must say)
Deb
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Hmmmmm.
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Oh Deb, an intruder? Never! We've been looking for you. Hortense. It still doesn't add up - I don't see her murdering the man just because she wants to get back at Lady D - or because Turkinghorn won't give her more money than he already has. Is Dickens saying she's ...unbalanced? There has to have been more of a motive, not yet apparent, don't you think?
I've been wondering how Dickens was planning to tie up all the loose ends. This Installment reads like the final episode of a long-running soap opera - one last chance to address all of the unanswered questions in the plot. But Dickens still hasn't done that with Bleak House, has he?
Jonathan is trying to prepare us, I'm afraid. Must we be brave and face the possibility that Dickens will leave us unsatisfied?
We still know nothing about Sir Leicester and Honoria's marriage - why DID she marry him?
We still don't know the outcome of Jardndyce vs Jarndyce - perhaps we never wlll, but hopefully we will find out more about John Jarndyce, his past involvement with Honoria and Sir Leicester - and what he is planning for Esther's future happiness.
And how about Miss Flite? Are we to hear the outcome of her lawsuit? Poor Mr. Snagsby?
What else? What is tops on your curiosity list? What will disappoint you if left unanswered?
We do begin to learn how some of the pieces fit together in the first chapter of this new Installment - "Springing a Mine" - though I don't understand the meaning of this title, do you?
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Good for you for guessing, Deb. Read on and stay tuned to see if you're right or wrong.
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Now that is something I hadn't considered, JUDE. You could be right. There were so
many diseases and disabilities for which there was no diagnosis, much less a cure.
The mumbling cousin could very well be one of those victims. From the views he
expressed in his mumbling, however, he seemed to be expressing the viewpoint of most
of the gentry of those days. That is what makes me think he is a type that Dickens
wanted to highlight to his public as ridiculous.
JOAN, I found an article that should help explain the relationship between the police
force and people like Tulkinghorn and Sir Leicester. There's a link for those who want to read more.
The modern police force in England was founded between the years 1829 and 1839. This
development was the direct result of the upsurge of a militant working class movement
in the first decades of the 19th century. The old system of corrupt and incapable
parish constables was clearly inadequate to protect the property of rich citizens in the rapidly growing towns against the activities of thieves. The propertied men were
thoroughly alarmed at the growth of an organized working class movement which
engaged in bitter struggles for elementary democratic and trade union rights. The old
police forces were quite inadequate to ensure social order.
http://www.bbmms.org/Eng/2009/10/the-police-force/
I, too, have finished the book and am being careful not to 'think' ahead. But I
was not disappointed. Dickens left very little unanswered. Possibly to questions he
never thought would arise? ??? Some endings I may have found a tad to 'sweet', or
unsurprising, but you will want to remember that a murder mystery was a new thing
in Dickens' day. He and his readers weren't as 'sophisticated' as we are now in
these matters.
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Good morning, Babi!
Your post is reassuring - I guess we need to be fair to the author - if he doesn't answer our questions that occur as we are reading. After all, this is HIS story. I'm hoping that he will address the questions HE himself has brought up though.
Your research on the Police Force at the time was informative. Bucket seems to be one in a million - he knows just how to get along with everyone, from Mercury - just one of the guys - to the old aristocracy , careful to address, flatter and impress them with the courtesy he shows to them. This seems to explain the repeated address of "Sir Leicester Dedlock, Baronet,"
I really worry about Sir Leicester - can he survive the information Bucket has given him? A stroke? Should Bucket have put him at his ease sooner? I worry that it is too late. Why doesn't he tell him everything? Is there a reason tht we don't know about yet? Or have I missed something...again? :D
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
|
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmrsbagnet.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmrsbagnet.jpg)
Mrs. Bagnet Returns from her Expedition
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
XVII
XVIII |
DATE of PUBLICATION
July 1853
Aug. 1853 |
CHAPTERS
54-56
57-59 |
DISCUSSION DATES
May 6-May 10
May 11- May 15 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illlonelyfigure.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illlonelyfigure.jpg)
The Lonely Figure
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
Chapter LIV Springing a Mine
1. What was you reaction to Detective Bucket's confrontation with Smallweed?
2. Bucket confronts Mademoiselle Hortense. What new view of the French do you find here? How does that fit with other comments we've read re. the French?
3. Detective Bucket is always very formal in addressing Lord Dedlock. How does Dickens explain that?
Chapter LV Flight
1. What do you think of Mrs. Bagnet's decision to override George's wishes? Do you agree with her assessment of his situation?
2. Did you feel Dickens handled the reunion of mother and son well? Are you satisfied with George's explanation?
3. How do you see Mr. Guppy's last interview with Lady Dedlock? Does it alter your view of him?
Chapter LVI Pursuit
1. All is revealed. What is the immediate result with Sir Dedlock? With Lady Dedlock?
2. What new role does George Rouncewell assume at this time?
3. How does Detective Bucket impress you as a detective? How does he compare with your favorite fictional detectives of later days?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Are we on Ch 54-56 where all is revealed yet? If some aren't caught up yet, we could refer to the solution obliquely: for example, were you surprised?
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JoanK, check the heading for the schedule. It's the same as it's been. Not sure where everyone is although it seems that we are all up to speed now.
Bucket seems to have all the facts, doesn't he? He says at one point that Mr. Tulkinghorn told him everything. Really was surprised when the noisy trio entered the house - all wanting to profit from sharing what they know of Tulkinghorn's manuevering. Except Mrs. Snagsby, who thinks her husband fathered Jo. Not sure what she's doing here. What can she add to the investigation?
Maybe someone can explain why Grandpa Smallweed wants to buy back the letters that he found at Krook's place - letters he sold to Tulkinghorn and now seems to want them back. Or does he want to sell them again, now that Tulkinghorn is dead?
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So we have read the solution. but some may be trying to catch up, and not want to see it discussed yet.
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Is there anyone here who has not read Chapter 54 yet? "Springing a Mine?" Can you explain what this title means?
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I messed up and read to chapter 59 - I am also feeling the pace in that most of the nuances of the story have been discussed and it appears now to be plot and character driven and so the story has become a page turner for me.
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Yes, these last sections seem to be increasing the action.
JoanP, I accidentally found that Dickens first used the expression "springing a mine" in Chapter XVI.
"Twice lately there has been a crash and a cloud of dust, like the springing of a mine, in Tom-all-Alone's; and each time a house has fallen. These accidents have made a paragraph in the newspapers and have filled a bed or two in the nearest hospital. The gaps remain, and there are not unpopular lodgings among the rubbish. As several more houses are nearly ready to go, the next crash in Tom- all-Alone's may be expected to be a good one."
I think that likely confirms that Dickens is using the expression in the military sense of "an anti-personnel mine, which is designed to jump into the air in order to cause injury to a person’s upper body." http://military-dictionary.feeds-4business.com/words/247725-springing-mine.html
Or maybe just the act of setting off a land mine? That seems to be what Buckett is doing in this chapter. He's figured out who killed Tulkinghorn and is revealing the information about that and about Lady D in a way that I felt was a "bombshell."
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Thanks, Marcie - I completely missed that but can see it now.. Mr. Bucket sure is "springing a mine" on poor Sir Leceister, who can't bear to hear the information the Inspector is giving him.
I'm not sure that learning the identity of the real murderer means anything to this old man. He just knows that his beloved wife has been dishonored, "yet he accepts this in a tone of mourning and compassion rather than reproach."
In rereading this chapter, I see another mention of a "spring" -
Says Hortense to Sir Leicester - "Adieu, you old man grey, I pity you and despise you. With these words, she snapped her teeth together, as if her mouth closed with a spring..."
And she's led away - in handcuffs!
But wait, there's more. The first sentence of the next chapter, "Flight"
"Inspector Bucket of the Detective has not yet struck his great blow." What can this be? What more does he know? Who wil be the recipient of this "great blow?"
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I guess I wasn’t the only one wondering when I should “spill the beans.”
I thought “Springing a Mine” meant revealing explosive information that would have the potential to cause damage.
I thought the character of Mdm. Hortense was made to seem like a caricature of a conniving French woman. Some descriptions of her include “tigerish expansion of the mouth,” “black eyes darting,” “intemperate foreigner,” and “tigress-like.” I thought the way her dialogue was written was poor, actually. It did try to convey that she was French, but I didn’t find it convincing at all.
Detective Bucket calling Sir Leicester by his full name and title drove me nuts as I was reading it! I assumed that Bucket did it to show extreme respect for Sir Leicester since he was about to reveal private and embarrassing news to him.
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I too thought Bucket was ruthless in his delight in pointing out his deductions while poor Sir D. looked like he was about to have a major collapse, his world falling apart.
Love the paragraph from ch LV
Railroads shall soon traverse all this country, and with a rattle and a glare the engine and train shall shoot like a meteor over the wide night-landscape, turning the moon paler; but as yet, such things are non-existent in these parts, though not wholly unexpected. Preparations are afoot, measurements are made, ground is staked out. Bridges are begun, and their not yet united piers desolately look at one another over roads and streams, like brick and mortar couples with an obstacle to their union; fragments of embankments are thrown up, and left as precipices with torrents of rusty carts and barrows tumbling over them; tripods of tall poles appear on hill-tops, where there are rumours of tunnels; everything looks chaotic, and abandoned in full hopelessness. Along the freezing roads, and through the night, the post-chaise makes its way without a railroad on its mind.
Was at the library today and found a book by author Stephen Leacock titled Charles Dicken's His Life and Work'--the author was from the town 5 minutes from me Orillia, Ontario and is well known for his humourous writing around here.
and
Dickens Public Life and Private Passion by Peter Ackroyd &
The Friendly Dickens, being a good natured guide to the art and adventures of the man who invented Scrooge by Norrie Epstein
good to know that it looks like the group will carry on with 'Great Expectations' --as the books I have look so interesting
one thing I did read in one of them was it appears many students are introduced to Dickens by the book 'A Tale of Two Cities' and it turns off many to reading any of his other works and the commentator felt if Dickens realized this he would be very upset that this was the book picked---I must say I found that book to be very hard to read when I took it in grade 10 or so
someone mentioned that mystery novels were a new type of writing at the time of Dickens writing 'Bleak House' and I guess that is why I feel let down with with reasoning and bringing the antagonist into the picture perhaps. It felt very superficial and I would have enjoyed more involved conniving etc.
Deb
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Deb, I'm glad to hear Leacock is still available. I loved his stuff when I was growing up--never came across the Dickens book, though.
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I thought the character of Mdm. Hortense was made to seem like a caricature of a conniving French woman. Some descriptions of her include “tigerish expansion of the mouth,” “black eyes darting,” “intemperate foreigner,” and “tigress-like.” I thought the way her dialogue was written was poor, actually. It did try to convey that she was French, but I didn’t find it convincing at all.
I agree. Dickens is playing to the stereotyped notions of the time, maybe shares them. It's certainly playing to them to have the murderess be a volatile foreigner.
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I will be leaving on a trip to the Shakespear Festival in Ashland Oregon so I will not complete the discussion with you.
I finished the book but will not reveal even a hint to you all.
The Detective, Bucket, was an original and as such, the first of so many that would follow, he was an interesting start of this popular genre.
I enjoyed the book and the discussion so much!
Thank you to the designers of the questions (which I didn't answer) that made me think about all the important issues.
I have learned a lot in these past four months and wish I could finish this trip that we started together.
I hope to meet you all again in another discussion.
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Bucket does have a remarkable talent for adapting himself to the type of person he
is dealing with. Very useful talent, indeed. I did get tired of Bucket constantly
addressing Dedlock by his full title, but Dickens does explain it. “...Mr. Bucket,
who delights in a full title, and does violence to himself when he dispenses with
any fragment of it...”
I assumed Bucket did not attempt to 'put him at his ease' sooner, because he could
not be sure at that point whether all his deductions were correct. He didn't want to
give false hopes.
The descriptions of the cornered Hortense were a bit florid, but when you conjure
up a picture from that description, it seems apt enough. A violent-tempered woman
could well react like a tigress at bay. At the same time, Detective Bucket also
says, “Upon my soul, I wonder at you. I thought the French were a polite nation, I
did, really.” Bucket’s reaction is possibly typical of the English re. the French,
and surely must reflect something of Dickens’.
Moving on to Ch.55, Mrs. Bagnet, bless her heart, has gone to fetch Mrs. Rouncewell to her long-lost George. George, imprisoned on a suspicion of murder, is being noble and pigheaded, and refusing to have anything to do with a lawyer. (I can understand his reluctance, but really!)
As Mrs. Bagnet puts it, “It won’t do to have truth and justice on his side; he must have law and lawyers.” Very true. Innocence can be doubted; it is proof that is needed.
We'll miss you, JUDE. I've enjoyed your contributions so much. Have a great time
at the Shakespeare Festival!
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Hey Jude , you will be missed at the grande finale, the big reveal. Your input throughout was much appreciated - consistanly bringing insights into the characters' motivations that we hadn't considered. Thank you! Hope you are planning to join us in the discussion of Great Expectaions in mid-July, after a bit of a break from Dickens. Do you have tickets yet for the Shakespeare Festival? I read somewhere that they were doing "Troilus and Cressida..." Whoa!
Deb, will look for you in the Great Expectations discussion too. You have an eye for drawing us to the big picture in England at the time the story is set - I've a footnote regarding the passage you quoted on the railroads, which were non-existent in these parts at the time -
"According to T.W.Hill, these details suggest that the story is set in the late 1830's just before the development of railways in Lincolnshire in the 1840's."
This might change our views on the timing of the court system, reforms, the elections - the story not set in the 1850's at all - but some years earlier.
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"The descriptions of the cornered Hortense were a bit florid,"
Babi, loved that description. I think we were all a bit disappointed in the revelation that Hortense was the murderer, Deb. Do you think that Dickens' readers felt the same way? Or were they so unaccustomed to murder mysteries that they just accepted it as part of the story. I confess, I'm still hoping for more of a motive, but can see where Dickens readers might have not expected more.
Laura refers to those terms describing Hortense - all animals, weren't they? Less than human, passionate, ruthless, unrefined those French. I agree, he overdid it - do you think his compatriots agreed with him, regarded the French in the same way at this time as PatH suggests - a volatile people?
Dickens seems to expend much of his creative energy on his Inspector Bucket, doesn't he? Has anyone seen the film adaptation of Bleak House yet? Does Bucket have the lead male role? If I were a male actor reading the script, I'd jump at that part.
Yes, Mrs. Bagnet was instrumental in getting Mrs. Rouncewell to come to London to convince George to defend himself, Babi, but was the trip really necessary - if you consider that Mr. Bucket is already clearing him in apprehending the real suspect. Did you notice that she walked to Lincolnshire to get Mrs. Rouncewell? Another Miss Flite! Where is Miss Flite, by the way? Do you think her case will be resolved in the few chapters we have left?
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about the time line in the book
from a series of books under 'Landmarks of World Literature' heading
Dickens Bleak House by Graham Storey
pg 5 chapter entitled Historical context
'In February 1851, after Lord John Russell's administration was defeated, there was literally a two weeks' hiatus in government; and one reason was the Party leaders; belief that no one else could be brought in for the task. Dicken's sarcasm echoes similar attacks in The Times;....
then the book quotes -from Bleak Street
England has been in a dreadful state for some weeks. Lord Coodle would go out, Sir Thomas Doodle wouldn't come in, and there being nobody in great Britain (to speak of) except Coodle and Doodle, there has been no government.
--from beg. ch 40
the above one about one of Dicken's 5 pet peeves that he used this book to portray--it will be interesting to look at how or what or even if he did use 'Great Expectations' to allow his pet annoyances to show
Deb
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Wow! From Dickens to Shakespeare. We all wish you a smooth transition, Jude. You must tell us when you get back which of the two has more 'original' characters in his dramas. Which of the two would you invite to dinner? Both? Would they talk shop?
Charles, I like your line: it's not enough to have truth on your side, you need a lawyer as well.
I can't make up my mind, if Bucket is being respectful or sarcastic with his deferential manner with Sir Leicester Dedlock, Baronet. In the movie version Sir Leicester seems annoyed by it.
I can't see a lead male role in the movie. They all play their parts so well.
Neither can I make up my mind about Dickens's social criticism. Is it 'pet peeves', as Deb suggests, or as others have called it: 'muck', and 'muckraking'? Reform was in the air, including reform of Chancery proceedings. Education, health, marital, slum issues, and justice, which five did you have in mind? Class?
Hortense has a special place in the plot. The readers would have thought revolution as it was practised in France, just a few years earlier. I could swear it's a hint of A Tale of Two Cities in the works. Dickens couldn't find a murderer among his compatriots, so he imported one. He was reading Carlyle's French Revolution at the time. Perhaps he was pointing out the possibility of revolutin if reform could not be had.
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Jude we will miss you but Shakespeare - Wow - I loved the explanation of Springing the Mine - what a wonderful explanation to understand what that lead-up was all about - and then all that leading to a bit part actress in the story - isn't there something about the pebble in your shoe is worse than the boulder in your path - or something like that. George the good will be reunited as the prodigal son - how comforting.
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Yes, Mrs. Bagnet was instrumental in getting Mrs. Rouncewell to come to London to convince George to defend himself, Babi, but was the trip really necessary - if you consider that Mr. Bucket is already clearing him in apprehending the real suspect.
I'm not Babi, but I'll chime in on this one anyway. :)
While it might not have been necessary for Mrs. Rouncewell to make the trip to clear George, it was necessary for the overall story in that it enabled she and her son to reconcile after not seeing each other for so many years.
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Compared to the phlegmatic English, I'm sure the French did seem a very volatile
people. Come to think of it, the 'phlegmatic' Englishman is a stereotype, too, isn't
it? :-X
I couldn't agree more about Detective Bucket as a film role, JOANP. Bucket is a
marvelous detective. “The velocity and certainty of Mr. Bucket’s interpretation on
all these heads is a little short of miraculous.” I do wonder that none of
our mystery writers have used Detective Bucket as the hero of a mystery series.
I would love to read them, if properly done. (‘do wonder’, ‘properly done’. I am
getting thoroughly immersed in the language of the day.)
Really, tho', how was Mrs. Bagnet to know Detective Bucket would save the day? And
it offered the perfect opportunity for Dickens to re-unite mother and son, as LAURA
points out.
Thats for that background, BOOKAD. Sharp eye, there. I also note another reference
in 'Bleak House' that fits beautifully. “England has been some weeks in the dismal
strait of having no pilot.......to weather the storm; and the marvelous part of the
matter is, that England has not appeared to care very much about it.”
JONATHAN, I don't think Bucket is being sarcastic, but that is a possibility. Doesn't
really seem his style, though. He would really have to be highly contemptuous of
Sir Leicester as an individual, to keep the sarcasm going in the face of his illness.
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"While it might not have been necessary for Mrs. Rouncewell to make the trip to clear George, it was necessary for the overall story in that it enabled she and her son to reconcile after not seeing each other for so many years. "
Laura, I agree - it was heartwarming that mother and son were united, as Barb points out - but also necessary to involve her in advancing the plot. Even the perceptive detective could not have known that Mrs. Rouncewell also received one of Hortense's letters, naming Lady Dedlock as the murderess. He also missed the part Mr. Guppy would play after seeing Mr. Smallweed at the Dedlocks - Guppy went right to Lady Dedlock and told her that her old letters had not been destroyed, but were now in her husband's hands.
What do we think of Mr. Bucket as a detective? He seems a bit impulsive, doesn't he? So convinced that he is right in his assumptions. I will say that when he makes an error, he follows up on it - to right the wrong he may have done. I think he needs a partner who will balance the act. A partner besides Mrs. Bucket. He seems to tell her what to do, but not confer with her on their course of action...
Surely Mr. Bucket would did not want word to get to Lady Dedlock before he exposed Hortense as the murderer. He must have felt directly responsible for her flight. If the lady had not learned of the letters now in her husband's hands, she might have stayed behind to defend herself. But she knows she had no home left now that her husband has those letters.
I'm wondering if that would have happened anyway...had there been no murder, would Sir Leicester have received those letters and learned of her past liaison. Would she have fled anyway?
It's pointless to wonder about that though - Dickens has conceived of this situation - a double whammy, leaving Lady D no choice but to flee. Surely Mr. Bucket, who knows so many people all over London will be able to find her. Judging from Sir Leicester's reaction, he'll take her back - if he survives. It seems that Mr. Bucket also did not anticipate his extreme reaction. Surely he didn't mean to kill Sir Leicester, while apprehending Tulkinghorn's murderer?
It's really fascinating watching the story unravel - in ways we never could have anticipated, and yet sensed coming all along, isn't it?
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"Compared to the phlegmatic English, I'm sure the French did seem a very volatile people."
I remember a discussion of "social distance". Everybody has a distance at which they feel comfortable standing from other people. But it's different in each culture. The French stand closer to each other while talking than the English. If a Frenchman and an Englishman are talking, the Frenchman will go closer, the Englishman will back up: maybe they will go all across the room like that. the English will feel that the french are "pushy"; the french that the English are "distant".
Funny how something we're not even aware of can influence us. I have personal space issues, too. Since I'm in a wheelchair, and lower, if I'm standing in line behind someone, they often don't sense that I'm there and back up into my personal space. This can feel very threatening, especially since I'm usually staring right at their rear end.
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On Mr. Guppy’s last interview with Lady Dedlock, I am pleased to say that it does him
credit, and suggests a new maturity and firmness that was, imo, much needed. (He still
talks like a lawyer, of course, having to hedge himself about carefully with words.)
I was surprised, touched and pleased at Sir Leicester's quick forgiveness of Lady Dedlock.
I knew he loved her, but with his enormous sense of pride and responsibility to the family
name, I didn't expect this very human, loving response.
Sir Leicester has suffered a stroke. Lady Dedlock is sought but only a letter to her husband is found. “---but it is doubtful yet whether he has not received another missive from another world, requiring to be personally answered; and all the living languages, and all the dead, are as one to him.” sigh Pure, lovely Dickens.
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Babi, everything about this chapter suggests his death, doesn't it? Though Mrs. Rouncewell tries to be reassuring, telling Sir Dedlock that his illness is not of serious consequence, there are tears running down her face. And then Bucket tells John Jarndyce that his mission is to bring Lady Dedlock back to the house - but that he fears suicide after reading her letter.
Do you sense that Mr. Bucket feels in some way responsible for the way he's handled the investigation into the murder?
I'm finding this episode so much more riveting than Tulkinghorn's murder, aren't you? I'm hoping for a happy resolution, but not sure at this point. Pure Dickens, yes! He is certainly holding on to his readers with this installment -
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Joan, you say "I'm finding this episode so much more riveting than Tulkinghorn's murder,"
Oh, yes! And I think that Bucket may feel responsible for not keeping watch on Lady D. Babi, I too was glad to see the depths of Sir L's love for Lady D. I think she has lived in her "own world" of secrecy and shame for so long that she has no idea that he would forgive her.
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Marcie, we still don't know what Sir Leicester knew of his wife's past when he married her, do we? Do you suppose he did know, but married her anyway? Wouldn't that be something?
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I too am surprised and pleased that Sir D. would be forgiving of
his wife; the whole household seemed rather stuffy in their ways
and his being forgiving did not seem to mesh with their behaviour
I was wondering if Bucket might have some worries about his way of
presenting Sir D. with all his information regarding the murder....he got
so carried away with his discoveries and forgot he didn't need to enlighten Sir D. with every morbid detail...it felt like all this info played havoc with
poor Sir D. and his health
very gripping chapter though; I agree
Deb
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Being clinical about this if Bucket was 'springing the mine' when the explosion came someone had to be injured from all that flying debris - probably a stroke but how close does Sir Leicester's symptoms match shock. The trauma of shock can take away the use of all kinds of bodily functions, even speech.
That could be Sir Leicester's heartache if he did know of Lady Deadlock's past and thought he was elevating her to the dignity he saw in her and now is realizing she never fully owned the place he made for her in his world and in his heart. To her it was all conditional on looking and acting the part.
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I think she has lived in her "own world" of secrecy and shame for so long that she has no idea that he would forgive her.
Not only that, but I don't think she can forgive herself--she's just as hard on herself as others would be. She's also so proud that I don't think she could stand to face the world if her past were known.
What's really frustrating, though, is the timing of her flight. When she leaves, Sir L. is alone in his library. He has already learned everything, and might or might not have suffered the further stroke that leaves him lying speechless. If she had come into the library, she might have been able to talk to him, learn of his forgiveness, or at least get him help sooner.
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ah but shame brings with it isolation and I sense her fear of being outed was as they say when you are too fearful to cry. Yes, Pat it does sound like, doesn't it, of all the ifs and if onlys we hold onto in our minds when in our life unthinkable things happen.
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Like others, I was pleasantly surprised to see how quickly Sir Dedlock forgave his wife and how deeply he felt for her. The book does indicate through words that he had a stroke, but, based on what happened, I am not entirely sure. I was also thinking his illness could be the result of a temporary shock.
I can’t really compare Detective Bucket to modern detectives because I don’t read mysteries. I do find him mysterious. He pops into the story at unexpected times and has information that the reader could in no way have.
I am hoping that Lady Dedlock is found before it is too late!
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It seems to me, from the shock that he experienced, that Sir L did not know of Lady D's affair and child, before. I don't think that Dickens would portray the irony of Lady D's suffering (and her causing Esther to suffer never acknowledging her in public) while Sir L knows about her affair all along. I think that Dickens is telling us that Buckett has given Sir D a great shock but that Sir D immediately has compassion for his wife.
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Mercie that was my take as well however, as you read there isn't enough definite so I can see how another view point is possible. Regardless he is in a whole lot of heartache.
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As I drove around today on my errands, I found myself thinking of the irony - and also the tragedy of the Dedlocks' marriage. Did you sense tragedy?
From the number of references and footnotes in Bleak House, you can see that Dickens was well acquainted with and influenced by Shakespeare. This afternoon, Romeo and Juliet came to mind. There's the class difference. There are family members who would like to see the couple break up. There is the misunderstanding that seems to be leading to tragedy. I know the comparison only goes so far - but there's enough there to make me fear that death is in the picture unless someone intervenes in time...maybe that "somebody" will be Mr. Bucket...
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Joan, I agree with you. I think we've been given some clues and foreshadowing of dark events. This next installment provides a long search and resolution. I think these next chapters contain the most dramatic/emotional passages so far.
Let's move on to chapters 57-59 now. Of course, if anyone has comments about past chapters, feel free to post them.
I'll provide some topics to consider in the next post.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
|
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illnight.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illnight.jpg)
The Night
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
XVIII
XVIX |
DATE of PUBLICATION
Aug. 1853
Sept. 1853 |
CHAPTERS
57-59
60-67 |
DISCUSSION DATES
May 11- May 15
May 16- May 20 | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmorning.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmorning.jpg)
The Morning
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
Chapter LVII Esther's Narrative
1. What descriptions that foreshadow something dire did you notice in this chapter?
2. What are some of the things going on when Buckett and Esther stop at the house where Jenny and Liz and their husbands live?
3. After Bucket and Esther leave the house and travel for many miles, Buckett gets an epiphany and heads back in the direction from which they came. Do we have any clues about what he is doing?
4. What do you think of Buckett's sleuthing powers and how he is reacting to this "case"?
Chapter LVIII A Wintry Day and Night
1. What is happening in the society outside the Dedlock townhouse?
2. Who is in the house? How does Sir L behave toward them and how do they respond to Sir L?
3. What do you think of Sir L's declaration to his "witnesses"?
4. Has your opinion of Sir L changed from the early chapters?
5. What metaphors/clues that foreshadow something dire did you notice in this chapter?
Chapter LIX Esther's Narrative
1. What is Buckett's opinion of Esther?
2. Esther and Buckett run into Woodcourt. Where has he been? What do you think of his actions in this chapter?
3. Did you find some of the dialog humorous in the meeting with Snagsby, Mrs. Snagsby and Guster?
4. What does Buckett reveal to Mrs. Snagsby?
5. How were you affected by the letter that Lady D wrote?
6. What do you think of the way that Dickens built up to the ending of this chapter (from the beginning of the installment to the ending sentence)?
|
Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I'm finding this episode so much more riveting than Tulkinghorn's murder, aren't you?
Oh, definitely, JOANP. Everything about Tulkinghorn's murder was sort of 'second hand'.
It seemed as though Dickens may have been sparing the tender sensibilities of his female
readers.
Bucket does seem upset by the turn of events. He had no way of knowing that Lady Dedlock
would learn of her danger before he could make his arrest and assure her she was safe. I
wouldn't be surprised if he did feel he could have handled things better.
Did you notice what Esther had to say about Detective Bucket? “He was really very kind and gentle;.....and...I felt a confidence in his sagacity which reassured me.” I feel the same
way about this surprising man. His gentleness shows in his contacts with Dedlock, as well as
his reassurances and encouragement to others, and makes an interesting contrast to the
quick thinking, determined policeman.
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PS. A bit of serendipity. Val and I have been clearing out some bookshelves, and I came
across an old book of short stories on fantasy and sci/fi. Included in them was a Dickens
short story entitled "The Magic Fishbone". He wrote it as a 'fairy tale' under the pseudonym of a 7-year old girl. Bless the man, he managed to actually sound like a 7-year old, and still get it in
his sly bits of humor and social commentary.
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Babi, I agree that Buckett is very determined to make sure his clients are psychologically and physically okay. He takes time to prepare them to "soften the blow" when they are to be confronted with bad news.
Thanks for mentioning THE MAGIC FISHBONE. There is an online version at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/23344
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
|
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmagnanimous.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmagnanimous.jpg)
Magnanimus Conduct of Mr. Guppy
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
XIX
|
DATE of PUBLICATION
Aug. 1853
|
CHAPTERS
60-67
|
DISCUSSION DATES
May 16-20
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmausaleum.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmausaleum.jpg)
The Mausoleum at Chesney Wold
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
Here are some questions to start, but we'd really like to hear from you.
What are some of your own questions and observations on these concluding chapters?
Chapter LX Perspective
1. Was it any surprise to learn Miss Flite was a daily visitor to Esther's sick room? Or that she has appointed Richard executor of her will? As it turned out, is there irony in this?
2. Do you see Richard and Ada's marriage surviving the strain of this case no matter the outcome?
Chapter LXI A Discovery
1. Can you explain the coolness between Mr. Skimpole and John Jarndyce, whom he referred to as "the Incarnation of Selfishness" in his diary? What is Dickens implying with Skimpole's character?
2. Was Allan Woodcourt's confession to Esther expected? What did you think of Esther's response? Why does she consider her future path easier than his?
Chapter LXII Another Discovery
1. Did Allan's confession precipitate Esther's desire to return as the mistress of Bleak House as soon as possible?
2. Do you think John Jarndyce recognizes the importance of the paper Smallweed has found among Krook's papers? Do you think he's suspected all along of the existence of a will that was not in his interest?
Chapter LXIIISteel and Iron
1. How does George Rouncewell's brother react to his request to remove his name from his mother's will? Do you think Mrs. Rouncewell's will was of any importance?
2. Another letter, this one George will send to Esther, a letter addressed to George containing a letter from an unmarried woman. What was the unfortunate timing of the delivery of this letter? What is in this letter?
Chapter LXIV Esther's Narrative
1. Why did Esther's guardian furnish the gift house to look just like his own home? Was there a reason why this sweet little cottage is also named "Bleak House"? Why do you think Dickens named this book Bleak House?
2. Was Guppy's new-found magnanimity unbelievable? Would his new house and his "'eart-felt feelings" for Esther tempt her to consider his proposal? Was this scene strictly for comic relief or is Dickens making another point here?
Chapter LXV Beginning the World
1. What of the new will found among Krook's papers? Too good to be true? Would it have set things right, but for what followed?
2. What did you think of the ironic ending of the Jarndyce suit? Was it predictable? Can you find examples of the lighter mood throughout the Court House as bundles of papers and documents are dumped outside on the pavement?
3. How did Richard and Miss Flite handle the outcome of the case? Were they able to pick up and begin life, once free from Jarndyce?
Chapter LXVI Down in Lincolnshire
1. Do the dull, static days at Chesney Wold suggest what life would have been like without Lady Dedlock's presence? What makes it bearable for Sir Leicester? For his cousin, Volumina?
2. Was it made clear why Mr. George chose to live out his life here?
Chapter LXVII The Close of Esther's Narrative
1. What was revealed of Esther's life as Mrs. Allan Woodcourt? What did you think of Dickens' concluding chapter? Was it satisfying to you?
2. Do you think that his readers were pleased to read of the other characters in the book before closing?
|
Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Yes, Bucket did have good intentions - and did try to do what he thought was best - but as has been pointed out, he didn't always forsee what others might do in the meantime. I was surprised that he had so much autonomy in carrying out his investigation. Yes, this is fiction...must remember that. But wasn't it strange tjat no one else was assigned to the case with him - and this was a big one - a murder case! Maybe this was because everyone believed the real murderer had been apprehended - and so Bucket took it upon himself to get to reveal the murderer was other than Mr. George? I don't think he'd work well with other investigators though - not his style.
Do you think Bucket knew it was Hrotense all along - did he ever consider that it was Lady Dedlock? I forget those details - so much happened so fast...
One other bit of irony - Guppy, sworn to stay out of the case, a sacred trust to Esther that he would not do any further investigation into her cause - felt complelled to step in and reveal to Lady D. that the letters that he had first planned to give to deliver to her - were now in Sir Dedlock's plans. He couldn't have done more damage - hurt Esther more, if he had tried.
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I do believe Guppy had the best of intentions in warning Lady Dedlock that the letters had been
found. He had, at one time, attempted to get them for her, didn't he? He felt he owed her that. He could not have known she would react as she did.
More of Lord Dedlock’s character is revealed, to his very great credit. “It is necessary---less to his own dignity now perhaps, than for her sake---that he should be seen as little disturbed, and as much himself, as may be.” He has sent Bucket to search for Lady Dedlock, with assurances of his love and forgiveness. He does not want her to suffer any
further pain from seeing how the blow has struck him down.
It is a pity Lady Dedlock did not understand how dear she was to her husband.
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Oh Babi - I believe that Guppy had the best intentions...It was just the irony of how the warning caused Esther the pain that she feared would occur if Guppy pursued working in her interests.
What do you think of Buckett's sleuthing powers and how he is reacting to this "case"?
That's an interesting question, Marcie - because there seems to be two different Buckets at work on the case. One has superpowers - as has been mentioned: he appears to appear inside rooms without keys, he sees and hears things that others don't or can't - and seems to read minds. Just when you think he can't possibly be human - and credible, all these "helpers" emerge from the shadows of the night as in this chapter - and you realize he is not alone on the case as it first seemed. So even though it seems he has superpowers, Dickens tries to assure us that he is merely a very perceptive detective.
As Bucket appears late on the scene in this long tale, do you get the feeling that Dickens felt he needed someone who was not involved in the Jarndyce affair in any way to finish the tale. Without Bucket this would have been difficult, I think.
He's looking for Lady Dedlock - He owes it to Sir Leicester. But why take Esther with him at night - in this snowstorm? Wasn't he putting her health and safety at great risk? That was quite a dramatic contrast - Sir Leicester in his warm house watching the snow fall...Esther soaking wet in the sleet, wind and rain.
Just once, I'd like to see Mr. Bucket admit that he made a mistake, or didn't think things through...that he is fallible. Do you think Dickens felt the same way? Do you?
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Oh dear I doubt Bucket thinks he did wrong - he probably believes he did what was his bidding and did not realize how his trapping someone would affect others - I think Bucket is only in contention now as the cause of an ill conceived setting of his trap because of how Sir Leicester's health reacted - if Sir Leicester had not faded so dramatically we would be applauding the work of Bucket since the way Dickens wrote the story ferreting out Hortense was not obvious.
And then the timing of Guppy's visit with the thick cloud of shame Lady Deadlock was hiding unearthed so recently by Tulkinghorn, she was not thinking of anyone except how her past would destroy Sir Leicester, his opinion of her and the social ramifications when it was made known. I do think part of Lady D was aware how injured Sir Leicester would be and she did not want to make the injury any more severe by putting herself under his protection. Also, the nature of shame is to believe you are the cause.
I think she knew that he would if nothing else feel an obligation to his station in life to protect her but the shame to the family she believed she could do something to avoid. I think she saw she had no place to go, not just to avoid her own humiliation but also, to protect Sir Leicester from a loss of family honor that would bring down the house of Deadlock. The house of Deadlock, as we saw in earlier chapters reached politically into villages and government and so, to darken it with the shame surrounding Lady Deadlock's past would affect many.
I think Bucket is simply that one balancing block like playing Jenga - everyone pulls out a block till someone topples the tower - in this story it is not clear if it was Guppy or Bucket who pulled the balancing block -
There is a litany of "had"s
- had Guppy not shared when he did Lady Deadlock may have been in the house when Bucket sprung his trap
- had Sir Leicester all these years given voice to his love and told her what he knew and assuring her no story was too much so that Lady D realized she was safe.
- had her sister not swept away her baby or at least told her of her plan to raise the child Tulkinghorn would not have the grip on Lady D that circles this entire story.
- had Tulkinghorn not devoted his life to collecting secrets George would not be in jail nor would he have felt compromised by giving Tulkinghorn an example of Hawdon's handwriting
On and on it goes as we see each character affected by the sister taking it upon herself to keep and raise in secret Lady Deadlock's baby.
That was one long night and day for Esther - seems to me Bucket picked her up around midnight and they drove all night still searching through the day. Between small pox and all night carriage rides this is some strong lady - The back and forth all around town and countryside at breakneck speed of this horse and carriage ride reminds me of the life lead by Esther - from one stop to another someone else has been in charge of her life as she is shunted from place to place making the best of it where ever she alights.
As I recall Bucket asks Esther to accompany him so when they do find Lady Deadlock she will not feel threatened, which is how he sees approaching her would seem where as, Esther would assure her that they were not there to capture her but to assist her.
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I was surprised that he had so much autonomy in carrying out his investigation. Yes, this is fiction...must remember that. But wasn't it strange tjat no one else was assigned to the case with him - and this was a big one - a murder case!
I find myself thinking of Bucket as a private detective, especially during this installment. We know that Sir Dedlock had agreed to pay Bucket whatever was necessary to find the murderer of Mr. Tulkinghorn. Then Sir Dedlock sent Bucket to find Lady Dedlock. It seems like Bucket is under more than just the influence of Sir Dedlock --- it seems he is under his employ. I know it did say in the book that Bucket was part of what seemed to be the police of the city of London, but he doesn’t function like we would assume in such a role.
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Something in the very first sentence of this installment stuck me ---
“I had gone to bed and fallen asleep, when my guardian knocked at the door of my room and begged me to get up directly.”
The word guardian caught my eye because I assumed that since Esther’s engagement to Mr. Jarndyce had been made known, that she would refer to him as her betrothed, or some such name. Then I remembered that Esther is, in fact, narrating the story from the future, retelling it to us the readers. Hmmm…and Mr. Woodcourt makes another appearance in this installment. I can’t help but wonder how Esther will end up --- married, engaged, neither, and to whom?
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As I completed this installment, I felt that it was all about finding Lady Dedlock, and when I got to the end and read the last sentence, I felt like there was nothing of importance in the installment, that I had spent my time in the hunt, so to speak. Going back over the hunt with you all will make me appreciate it.
I had no idea why Lady Dedlock would have gone by Jenny’s house while reading Chapter 57. Of course, now I know.
I assumed when Bucket turned around that he had some information that Lady Dedlock was heading back to London, and that’s why he and Esther back tracked. I don’t remember any specific clues. I just thought I deduced that.
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Bucket kept talking to folks along the way on the journey out of London - we never hear the specifics of those conversations and I get the impression he put it together when he lost the trail that the lady he was following was Jenny wearing Lady Deadlock's clothing - I am thinking there were just enough clues from those he spoke with for him to realize it was not Lady Deadlock.
Watching that storm from his window must have been brutal for Sir Leicester knowing his wife was out in that night of ice, sleet, wind and heavy snow.
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Bucket kept talking to folks along the way on the journey out of London - we never hear the specifics of those conversations and I get the impression he put it together when he lost the trail that the lady he was following was Jenny wearing Lady Deadlock's clothing - I am thinking there were just enough clues from those he spoke with for him to realize it was not Lady Deadlock.
That's got to be it, Barb. One more in your helpful list of "hads". If Bucket had turned around earlier, they might have found Lady D. in time. I had an awful feeling of frustration all through the chase.
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Laura, you're right - Esther still refers to John Jarndyce as her "guardian" - he still refers to her as the future Mistress of Bleak house. Not exactly an engaged couple are they? I was somewhat surprised that JJ handed her over to Bucket that stormy night. Why didn't he go with her? Not enough room in the carriage?
Barbara paints an vivid picture of the rush in the storm to find Lady D. in time - following the traces in the snow where her dress had dragged through the snow.
Some things I didn't understand - if timing was so important, why did they stop at some of the places they did? I suppose Esther needed the rest, but that seemed to be time wasted at the house in the country - with the three lovely daughters who fed Esther soup. Did it occur to you that they might be Mr. Vholes' wife and daughters?
I had the same awful feeling of frustration as time slipped away, too, Pat - but never, ever thought the chase was going to end as it did.
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With 20-20 hindsight, I realize that the death of Lady D. was the most likely outcome. In Victorian novels characters guilty of sexual misdeeds tend to be killed off. But I sure didn't think of that while I was reading.
I was somewhat surprised that JJ handed her over to Bucket that stormy night. Why didn't he go with her? Not enough room in the carriage?
That's probably the reason. The horses would be slowed a little by the extra weight. And JJ knew Bucket would take good care of her.
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I am thankful for all of the comments and questions you all post. They make me think about many aspects of the book that I would otherwise have overlooked or not given much thought.
I am re-reading some of the chapters looking at the specific language Dickens chooses and the some of the metaphors that he includes.
Chapter 57 starts an installment that seems to me to have a troubled dreamlike quality to it. And in retrospect, this installment seems to have many references to death, as well as to secrets.
In the first sentence, which Laura quoted above, we find that Esther has fallen asleep. "I had gone to bed and fallen asleep, when my guardian knocked at the door of my room and begged me to get up directly."
A few hours into Esther and Buckett's pursuit, Esther reflects "I was far from sure that I was not in a dream. We rattled with great rapidity through such a labyrinth of streets, that I soon lost all idea where we were; except that we had crossed and re-crossed the river..."
The crossing and recrossing of the river seems to emphasize the use of the word "river." It made me think of, the Styx, a river in Greek mythology that formed the boundary between Earth and the Underworld, that separated the living from the dead.
Esther goes on to say, "At length we stopped at the corner of a little slimy turning, which the wind from the river, rushing up it, did not purify... Against the mouldering wall by which they stood, there was a bill, on which I could discern the words, “FOUND DROWNED;” and this, and an inscription about Drags, possessed me with the awful suspicion shadowed forth in our visit to that place."
"I had no need to remind myself that I was not there, by the indulgence of any feeling of mine, to increase the difficulties of the search, or to lessen its hopes, or enhance its delays. I remained quiet; but what I suffered in that dreadful spot, I never can forget. And still it was like the horror of a dream. A man yet dark and muddy, in long swollen sodden boots and a hat like them, was called out of a boat, and whispered with Mr Bucket, who went away with him down some slippery steps — as if to look at something secret that he had to show. They came back, wiping their hands upon their coats, after turning over something wet; but thank God it was not what I feared!
Now that I'm looking there seem to be many more and they now look fairly straightforward to me. I'm sure that you all can find some that speak to you.
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I thought is very wise of Bucket to realize that Lady Dedlock, terrified, would need a
familiar face to reassure her even if he did find her.
Bucket is on the regular police force, but it was not uncommon for a wealthy to offer a
reward to the policeman in charge for a successful outcome. It certainly inspired diligence
among the underpaid officers. Nowadays a policeman cannot accept a reward for doing his job,
but rewards are still offered for 'information leading to...., etc."
Dickens does not fail to give us another view of all this. "It is given out that my Lady has gone down into Lincolnshire, but is expected to return presently. Rumour, busy overmuch, however, will not go down into Lincolnshire. It persists in flitting and chattering about town. It knows that that poor unfortunate man, Sir Leicester, has been sadly used. It hears, my dear child, all sorts of shocking things. It makes the world of five miles round, quite merry."
My opinion of Lord Dedlock has taken a 'sea-change'. "Women will talk, and Volumnia, though a Dedlock, is no exceptional case. He keeps her here, there is little doubt, to prevent her talking somewhere else. He is very ill; but he makes his present stand against distress of mind and body, most courageously." My admiration for the poor man grows with every view of
him.
In a conversation between Mrs. Rouncewell and George, Dickens reminds us:
“When I saw my Lady yesterday, George, she looked to me — and I may say at me too — as if the step on the Ghost’s Walk had almost walked her down.”
“Come, come! You alarm yourself with old-story fears, mother.”
“No I don’t, my dear. No I don’t. It’s going on for sixty year that I have been in this
family, and I never had any fears for it before. But it’s breaking up, my dear; the great old
Dedlock family is breaking up.”
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Babi, yes, it's especially courageous of Sir L, while he is battling with his stroke to keep watch for Lady D and make sure that others are considerate of her.
When Dickens describes Sir L's debilitation, which sounds so much like a stroke, I thought of Dickens own death due to a stroke.
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A Wintery Day and Night was a long-feeling chapter to read. I can’t imagine how long that day and night were for Sir Dedlock! And the weather only added to the worry, and the mood.
Based on the information in this chapter, I do think Sir Dedlock suffered a stroke, brought on by shock, no doubt.
Great comments in post 1052, Marcie. I think Dickens has lots of little touches like those you listed in his writing throughout the book, but I’m sure I didn’t notice half of them!
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Me too, Laura. I'm sure I've been missing alot, although you and others are helping me to see more. Re-reading this chapter, while looking for "foreshadowing" and metaphors, has helped more of these to pop out for me.
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Reading about Lady Dedlock's flight, I found cause to wish Dickens were not quite so good
with his descriptions. I felt the cold, the wet, the desperate anguish all too keenly. The
mental outlook brought to mind an earlier line, "Now it the time for shadow, when every
corner is a cavern, and every downward step a pit,.....”
Poor lady. If only they had been able to find her a bit sooner. Would scandal still have ruined
the Dedlocks, or would 'society' simply heave a relieved sigh that an acceptable person had been
found to be the guilty party? A servant, of course, and one of those awful French at that!
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It's a blessing it's raining here this morning - that means no gardening - and time to catch up and recoup from Mother's Day. My boys made sure I was rested and well-fed - with breakfast - a late brunch and finally dinner - in restaurants! Don't know about you, but I can't take even one meal in a restaurant without feeling I've overdone it - but three!
I hope you all had a good day yesterday...but not as filling! :D
So many good posts here - much to think about - and a good reason to go back and reread some of the rich and meaningful passages missed as I raced through the pages after the plot!
We never did get into Lady Dedlock's mind and heart, did we, Babi? People were talking about her, spreading rumors...
There were sightings, traces of her footprints in the snow...but no one was ever able to catch up with her - have a talk with her, find out what really happened way back when...or her feelings for Sir Leicester.
As you described, I too had a "sea change" regarding Sir Leicester. Until now he had been a remote, one dimensional figure, interested only in his position and of course the family honor...not so much involved with his wife, "Honoria."
PatH - interesting hindsight observation - "In Victorian novels characters guilty of sexual misdeeds tend to be killed off." I had expected Sir Leicester to die...but never thought about what would become of Lady Dedlock. Too much to hope that she would be forgiven and live happily ever after at Chesney Wold...not with those footsteps on the terrace growing ever louder. You've made me think of the future for Richard and Ada now. They weren't exactly guilty of sexual misdeeds, but did flaunt Victorian custom by the quick marriage without the customary approval of family or church. Will their marriage go unpunished?
Not sure if Sir Leicester suffered a stroke or if he's in shock, Laura. I think I remember reading that Sir L suffered from gout - as did Dickens. From what I know of gout - elevated blood pressure, etc - both men could well have suffered a stroke. Dickens died at a rather early age following a stroke.
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Marcie, that was an awesome post in which you carefully threaded together the many references to the dreamlike qualities of the dash through the night to find Lady Dedlock before it was too late. Actually, it read more like a nightmare, didn't it? I came away thinking that this might be the only way Esther could survive the memory of this night - to regard the whole episode as just a bad dream, a very bad dream. But, still, there is no question that the lady has died. How will Esther handle what has happened?
I'm going to have to go back as you did and reread some of these sections I raced through. As you suggest, there are other references pointing to death, to secrets and wills...abounding! Interesting the way George and Sir Leicester have bonded. Interesting to learn that Sir Leceister suspects his cousin, Volumnia of something - and well he should, watching her look for ways to protect whatever claim she might think she has on the Dedlock fortune. Though, Tulkinghorn is dead, and Lady Dedlock too, Dickens still keeps us in suspense, doesn't he? Off to reread...
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Babi and JoanP, I agree. Dickens writing is captivating ... and suspenseful, when he wants it to be. He definitely has a flair for the dramatic. It would have been interesting seeing him portray all of the parts aloud as he was writing.
I think that Sir L was well on his way to containing the damage of the scandal. He seemed to realize how to do that, perhaps from his political career. I think if Lady D had lived he would have been able to sheild her and himself from much of the damage.
JoanP, yes, I think that we're soon to be turning our attention to Richard and Ada. Jarndyce and Jarndyce looms over them.
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When it comes down to it we still do not have a picture of the potential scandal - did Lady D. have her baby before or after marriage which would indicate she either had an affair before or after marriage - we know she thought her lover died at sea and she was not aware her baby lived and there is something about a painting of her as a Dance Hall Girl or whatever she was in that collection of prints that were on Weevle, Jobling's wall.
We can assume that the Captain was a love interest more than a one night stand since Lady D. chooses to go to the cemetery when she ran away.
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I keep forgetting about that painting: a hint that her past was even darker. Is Dickens writing this at the time when he was having an affair with a "dance hall girl"?
" "In Victorian novels characters guilty of sexual misdeeds tend to be killed off." Even as late as te 1930s. As a graduate student, I participated in a content analysis of "True Stories" in the Thirties. The women who "secumbed" all met terrible fates: one fell off a cliff, another was hit by lightning etc.
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I don't think that the painting of Lady Deadlock owned by Jobling is meant to be anything other than a "society" portrait...which Dickens does make fun of by naming it the "Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty" and making other sly remarks, ... but they are not dance girls.
From Chapter 32:
"Mr. Guppy affects to smile, and with the view of changing the conversation, looks with an admiration, real or pretended, round the room at the Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty, terminating his survey with the portrait of Lady Dedlock over the mantelshelf, in which she is represented on a terrace, with a pedestal upon the terrace, and a vase upon the pedestal, and her shawl upon the vase, and a prodigious piece of fur upon the shawl, and her arm on the prodigious piece of fur, and a bracelet on her arm."
Re the affair: In my opinion, there is nothing said that would lead us to think that Lady D had an affair after she was married. If she had an affair, after she married Sir L, that would make her a very different (unfaithful) character.
I've searched around and all of the synopsis of the book that I've found indicate that Lady D had a lover, Captain Hawdon, and that Hawdon was reported drowned, before she married Sir L. The reports of others don't "prove" that this was the timeline, but I haven't found one that puts the affair after the marriage. See, for example, the timeline at http://www.shmoop.com/bleak-house/lady-dedlock-timeline.html (Shmoop articles are written by educators and experts. They're from Ph.D. and Masters programs at Stanford, Harvard, UC Berkeley (and other top universities). The vast majority of writers have taught at the high school or college levels.)
As we are saying, Lady D, was "punished" for the "out-of-wedlock" liaison but so was Captain Hawdon.
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thanks for sharing that Marcie - good synopsis - the only part that has me curious is that I thought there was more reason for Lady Deadlock to realize Esther was her grown child then a recognition when she saw Esther - Need to find that but I thought when Guppy arranged with her to obtain and give her the letters there was something said then - maybe not, but I thought there was more than just seeing Esther.
I guess with all the comments by Guppy that even though the painting was described as a lady with shawl and pedestal in the mid nineteenth century ladies of the evening were depicted with shawls and pedestals only in less than full attire. Seems unusual for a single man to have pictures of society ladies on his wall - but since the synopsis does not bring up the pictures as a source of history for Lady D. in must have been just that - a group of well dressed society ladies.
I do hope that Dickens fills us in when and how Sir Leicester met Lady D. so that we can put it together with her giving birth to Esther.
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Thanks, Barbara. I wonder if people in Dickens' time were not as focused on some of the background details of the book, as we are today.
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I'll add what little I can to the details. A footnote in my book says of Jobling's portrait of Lady D, from the Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty, that books featuring portraits of ladies of fashion were quite popular, and one of them was titled The Book of Beauty, or Regal Gallery.
In their one meeting, Lady D tells Esther that she did not recognize Esther when she saw her in church, was struck by something without knowing what, and only much later learned who Esther was. (She learned from Guppy. When he came to her with an offer of the letters, he said he had learned that Esther's real last name was Hawdon.)
I can't find it now, but somewhere someone says that Honoria (who would become Lady D) had been engaged to Captain Hawdon. That would put their affair before her marriage.
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Looks like you both found the Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty was for sure pictures of ladies of fashion - almost like pages from the Godey’s Lady’s Book.
OK Found it... just as you have said... But what Mr. Weevle prizes most of all his few possessions (next after his light whiskers, for which he has an attachment that only whiskers can awaken in the breast of man) is a choice collection of copper-plate impressions from that truly national work The Divinities of Albion, or Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty, representing ladies of title and fashion in every variety of smirk that art, combined with capital, is capable of producing. With these magnificent portraits, unworthily confined in a band-box during his seclusion among the market-gardens, he decorates his apartment; and as the Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty wears every variety of fancy dress, plays every variety of musical instrument, fondles every variety of dog, ogles every variety of prospect, and is backed up by every variety of flower-pot and balustrade, the result is very imposing.
But fashion is Mr. Weevle's, as it was Tony Jobling's, weakness...
To know what member of what brilliant and distinguished circle accomplished the brilliant and distinguished feat of joining it yesterday or contemplates the no less brilliant and distinguished feat of leaving it to-morrow gives him a thrill of joy. To be informed what the Galaxy Gallery of British Beauty is about, and means to be about, and what Galaxy marriages are on the tapis, and what Galaxy rumours are in circulation, is to become acquainted with the most glorious destinies of mankind. Mr. Weevle reverts from this intelligence to the Galaxy portraits implicated, and seems to know the originals, and to be known of them.
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Here we go - Lady D. learns that Esther is her daughter from Guppy...
"I am not aware," says Mr. Guppy, standing midway between my Lady and his chair, "whether your ladyship ever happened to hear of, or to see, a young lady of the name of Miss Esther Summerson."
My Lady's eyes look at him full. "I saw a young lady of that name not long ago. This past autumn."
"Now, did it strike your ladyship that she was like anybody?" asks Mr. Guppy, crossing his arms, holding his head on one side, and scratching the corner of his mouth with his memoranda.
My Lady removes her eyes from him no more.
"No."
"Not like your ladyship's family?"
"No."
"I think your ladyship," says Mr. Guppy, "can hardly remember Miss Summerson's face?"
"I remember the young lady very well. What has this to do with me?"
"Your ladyship, I do assure you that having Miss Summerson's image imprinted on my 'eart--which I mention in confidence--I found, when I had the honour of going over your ladyship's mansion of Chesney
Wold while on a short out in the county of Lincolnshire with a friend, such a resemblance between Miss Esther Summerson and your ladyship's own portrait that it completely knocked me over, so much so that I didn't at the moment even know what it WAS that knocked me over. And now I have the honour of beholding your ladyship near (I have often, since that, taken the liberty of looking at your ladyship in your carriage in the park, when I dare say you was not aware of me, but I never saw your ladyship so near), it's really more surprising than I thought it."
"Your ladyship, there is a mystery about Miss Esther Summerson's birth and bringing up. I am informed of that fact because--which I mention in confidence--I know it in the way of my profession at Kenge and Carboy's. Now, as I have already mentioned to your ladyship, Miss Summerson's image is imprinted on my 'eart. If I could clear this mystery for her, or prove her to be well related, or find that having the honour to be a remote branch of your ladyship's family she had a right to be made a party in Jarndyce and Jarndyce, why, I might make a sort of a claim upon Miss Summerson to look with an eye of more dedicated favour on my proposals than she has exactly done as yet. In fact, as yet she hasn't favoured them at all."
"Now, it's a very singular circumstance, your ladyship," says Mr. Guppy, "though one of those circumstances that do fall in the way of us professional men--which I may call myself, for though not admitted, yet I have had a present of my articles made to me by Kenge and Carboy, on my mother's advancing from the principal of her little income the money for the stamp, which comes heavy--that I have encountered the person who lived as servant with the lady who brought Miss Summerson up before Mr. Jarndyce took charge of her. That lady was a Miss Barbary, your ladyship."
"Did your ladyship," says Mr. Guppy, "ever happen to hear of Miss Barbary?"
"I don't know. I think so. Yes."
"Was Miss Barbary at all connected with your ladyship's family?"
My Lady's lips move, but they utter nothing. She shakes her head.
"NOT connected?" says Mr. Guppy. "Oh! Not to your ladyship's knowledge, perhaps? Ah! But might be? Yes." After each of these interrogatories, she has inclined her head. "Very good! Now, this Miss Barbary was extremely close--seems to have been extraordinarily close for a female, females being generally (in common life at least) rather given to conversation--and my witness never had an idea whether she possessed a single relative. On one occasion, and only one, she seems to have been confidential to my witness on a single point, and she then told her that the little girl's real name was not Esther Summerson, but Esther Hawdon."
"My God!"
Mr. Guppy stares. Lady Dedlock sits before him looking him through, with the same dark shade upon her face, in the same attitude even to the holding of the screen, with her lips a little apart, her brow a little contracted, but for the moment dead.
"Your ladyship is acquainted with the name of Hawdon?"
"I have heard it before."
"Name of any collateral or remote branch of your ladyship's
family?"
"No."
"Now, your ladyship," says Mr. Guppy, "I come to the last point of the case, so far as I have got it up. It's going on, and I shall gather it up closer and closer as it goes on. Your ladyship must know--if your ladyship don't happen, by any chance, to know already--that there was found dead at the house of a person named
Krook, near Chancery Lane, some time ago, a law-writer in great distress. Upon which law-writer there was an inquest, and which law-writer was an anonymous character, his name being unknown. But, your ladyship, I have discovered very lately that that law- writer's name was Hawdon."
"It was supposed, your ladyship, that he left no rag or scrap behind him by which he could be possibly identified. But he did. He left a bundle of old letters."
"Your ladyship, I conclude with that." Mr. Guppy rises. "If you think there's enough in this chain of circumstances put together-- in the undoubted strong likeness of this young lady to your ladyship, which is a positive fact for a jury; in her having been brought up by Miss Barbary; in Miss Barbary stating Miss Summerson's real name to be Hawdon; in your ladyship's knowing both these names VERY WELL; and in Hawdon's dying as he did--to give your ladyship a family interest in going further into the case, I will bring these papers here.
Is this the full purpose of the young man of the name of Guppy, or has he any other? Do his words disclose the length, breadth, depth, of his object and suspicion in coming here; or if not, what do they hide? He is a match for my Lady there. She may look at him, but he can look at the table and keep that witness-box face of his from telling anything.
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What I found interesting about this exchange it reminds me of how Bucket springs the trap - the build up - the step by step asking questions bringing the reader along with the one in the story being brought into the mystery, untangling bit by bit but not enough to let on there is a climax - the trap - In this case I think it is the letters - the secret of and in the letters -
From here on the story revolves around those letters - who has them, who knows about them, what secrets are written in them, how they connect Lady Deadlock to Captain Hawdon.
Like the first marks in a set of quotation-marks, Guppy, with a similar build-up opens the the quote that is closed with Bucket springing the trap on Hortense - when Hortense is trapped we know Sir Leicester knows the secret that Lady Deadlock, from the time of Guppy's visit, was trying to keep from his learning. During these two build ups, one by Guppy and then Bucket, Lady Deadlock was outwardly trying to obtain and hide her letters to her Captain from Sir Leicester Deadlock.
Added to the concept of quotes Leicester Deadlock was in the room when Guppy was announced and out of politeness and respect for Lady Deadlock he left before Guppy built his case. And so Sir Leicester was present just before and during the closing of these symbolic quotation marks.
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I was happy to see that Richard Carstone still drew the line somewhere. Ada had come into
her fortune and offered it to him, but he would not take it. By then, I was convinced he
would be trying to persuade her to give it to him, since in his mind he believed he was
acting for her as well. He still has enough good sense not to take her money from her. Alas,
he had not the good sense to choose not to marry her.
JOAN, it seemed to me that what Sir Leicester feared re. his sister, was her inability to
keep quiet. It's hard to 'contain the damage' with an inveterate blabbermouth in the family.
Considering how Lady Dedlock's sister schemed to keep the pregnancy secret, BARB, I am
assuming the whole thing was over and past before Sir Leicester came on the scene,...at
least as a suitor. It would have been a rare woman indeed, in those days, who would have
told her suitor the entire story, unnecessarily, and condemned herself forever socially.
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Babi, I'm getting the impression that when Richard married Ada, her assets became his too. I do think he's spending her money. He has no more of his own.
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I got that same impression. he wouldn't take her money while they weren't married: that's why she married him, so that he would take it. And he does.
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I thought that we got some comic relief with the meeting with Snagsby, Mrs. Snagsby and Guster. The dialog paints a very humorous situation:
" “My little woman,” said Mr Snagsby, entering behind us, “to wave — not to put too fine a point upon it, my dear — hostilities, for one single moment, in the course of this prolonged night, here is Inspector Bucket, Mr Woodcourt, and a lady.”
She looked very much astonished, as she had reason for doing, and looked particularly hard at me.
“My little woman,” said Mr Snagsby, sitting down in the remotest corner by the door, as if he were taking a liberty, “it is not unlikely that you may inquire of me why Inspector Bucket, Mr Woodcourt, and a lady call upon us in Cook’s Court, Cursitor Street, at the present hour. I don’t know. I have not the least idea. If I was to be informed, I should despair of understanding, and I’d rather not be told.”
He appeared so miserable, sitting with his head upon his hand, and I appeared so unwelcome, that I was going to offer an apology, when Mr Bucket took the matter on himself.
“Now, Mr Snagsby,” said he, “the best thing you can do, is to go along with Mr Woodcourt to look after your Guster—”
“My Guster, Mr Bucket!” cried Mr Snagsby. “Go on, sir, go on. I shall be charged with that next.”
“And to hold the candle,” pursued Mr Bucket without correcting himself, “or hold her, or make yourself useful in any way you’re asked. Which there’s not a man alive more ready to do; for you’re a man of urbanity and suavity, you know, and you’ve got the sort of heart that can feel for another. (Mr Woodcourt, would you be so good as see to her, and if you can get that letter from her, to let me have it as soon as ever you can?)”
As they went out, Mr Bucket made me sit down in a corner by the fire, and take off my wet shoes, which he turned up to dry upon the fender; talking all the time.
“Don’t you be at all put out, miss, by the want of a hospitable look from Mrs Snagsby there, because she’s under a mistake altogether. She’ll find that out, sooner than will be agreeable to a lady of her generally correct manner of forming her thoughts, because I’m a going to explain it to her.” Here, standing on the hearth with his wet hat and shawls in his hand, himself a pile of wet, he turned to Mrs Snagsby. “Now, the first thing that I say to you, as a married woman possessing what you may call charms, you know — ‘Believe me, if All Those Endearing,’ and cetrer’ — you’re well acquainted with the song, because it’s in vain for you to tell me that you and good society are strangers — charms — attractions, mind you, that ought to give you confidence in yourself — is, that you’ve done it.”
Mrs Snagsby looked rather alarmed, relented a little, and faltered, what did Mr Bucket mean.
“What does Mr Bucket mean?” he repeated; and I saw, by his face, that all the time he talked he was listening for the discovery of the letter — to my own great agitation; for I knew then how important it must be; “I’ll tell you what he means, ma’am. Go and see Othello acted. That’s the tragedy for you.” "
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I was so relieved, for Mr. Snagsby's sake, that Detective Bucket set 'the little woman' straight.
He's such a nice man; he didn't deserve the grief she was giving him.
It appears there might be some hope of better treatment for 'Guster' after all this. Mrs.
Snagsby is being given considerble...and much deserved...food for thought. But every delay
racks the tension up a bit higher, and the hope of rescuing Lady Dedlock appears dimmer.
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Go and see Othello acted. That’s the tragedy for you.
My first reaction to the many references to Shakespeare was that Dickens was quite well read for someone who hadn't much of an education. But Mr. Bucket is telling Mrs. Snagsby to go see Othello. This is London! Mid-century Victorians were not reading Shakespeare, they were attending the plays, the rich and poor alike.
Dickens' readers were quite familiar with every reference he made to the plays and able to appreciate his humor and the irony. Just when things get quite dramatic, (melodramatic), he seems to insert a humorous scene such as this one. I especially liked Mr. Guppy's renewed proposal to Esther in this final Installment.
But yes, Babi, this was a delay. Time is wasting away. I had the feeling every time they stopped that they weren't going to find Lady D in time. But really, truly, did not expect to find that she died without words with Esther - about her father. Does Esther know her father's identity at this point?
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THE FINAL INSTALLMENT! Can you believe it! Have you finished it? I am so eager to hear your reaction to these final chapters...and can't help but wonder how our reactions differ from Dickens' readers who have followed these characters for over a year. We've put a few questions in the heading, but surely you have more. There were 7 chapters, short ones. I'll try to take them in the order they appeared, just to be sure we don't miss the revelations in each chapter.
In the last installment, we left Esther, as she discovered her mother's dead body at her father's burial site. We've been waiting a month for the next installment to see how Esther responds to this traumatic experience. How will Dickens go on from there?
I'm not exactly sure why this opening chapter is called "Perspective" - are you?
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Not much being said is there about how Esther feels except she must have taken to her bed for a bit - there did not seem to be much emotion when Woodcourt declares his love - in fact this whole bit feels so anti-climactic with little real feelings except you get a sense that Esther feels safe and comfortable at Bleak House with John Jarndyce. And what was the bit all about with John Jarndyce not meeting Esther when she was leaving to go home from Ada and Richard's rooms. With Mrs. Woodcourt not at home either - strange.
As to Richard, no named illness but flagging and there is Ada the typical 'good' wife doing all she can - great example of co-dependency rather than love. But then at this time in history she has few choices.
Vholes isn't any more likable but he does not sound as much like a vampire rather, an unfeeling professional who is all about the intricacies of the law - what all that was about that Richard should not have married - he kept repeating it as if there was anything that could reverse that fact.
After all the dripple Skimpole spouts off to Esther I still am not sure why he decides to step away from Richard - the only thing I can see is if Richard is as poor as Esther is intimating then there is nothing in it for him.
It all feels like Dickens is hurrying up and tying up the package so it can be delivered complete - not only is there no narrative woven to enlarge some of these issues we have seen through much of the story but the characters are like paper dolls - well maybe things pick up again - I finished where Woodcourt left and Esther looking out the window after him is dwelling on how she feels she has it made as compared to Woodcourt.
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Well, I have returned from vacation. and had expected that the discussion would have been concluded. Instead I had before me a long and insightful series of posts which took quite a while to catch up on.
Only after a ten day break could I appreciate how clever and sometimes brilliant this discussion is. Even Dickens would have been impressed.
In Ashland Oregon we saw four plays and also visited Crater Lake which was surrounde by 14 feet of snow. What a shock that was. The Mountains and woods were snow covered for miles and miles.
The Festival has changed since I was last there 15 years ago. Ashland has changed. There are now four theatres and half the plays presented are not Shakespeare but others, old and new.
Troilus and Cressida was displaced to the war in Iraq and Romeo and Juliet was set in Mexican territory inside the U.S. border in 1840. We also saw "The Seagull" by Chekhov and a new Chinese /American play "The White Snake".
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Welcome back, Jude! I hope that the 'different' Ashland was still a good experience. Yikes, 14 ft of snow!!
I'm so glad that you came back in time to join us for our last days of this discussion. Your insights are among the clever and brilliant.
Barbara, I got the impression and John Jarndyce and Mrs. Woodcourt have left Esther and Mr. Woodcourt to themselves intentionally to permit Woodcourt to declare his feelings for Esther. Esther is still "engaged" to Jarndyce when Woodcourt tells her that he has always loved her. She doesn't feel free to reciprocate, though she admits to herself how happy she is to know of his feelings for her, to which they must now both say goodbye (she believes).
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmagnanimous.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmagnanimous.jpg)
Magnanimus Conduct of Mr. Guppy
(click to enlarge) |
INSTALMENT
XIX
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DATE of PUBLICATION
Aug. 1853
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CHAPTERS
60-67
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DISCUSSION DATES
May 16-20
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmausaleum.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmausaleum.jpg)
The Mausoleum at Chesney Wold
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
Here are some questions to start, but we'd really like to hear from you.
What are some of your own questions and observations on these concluding chapters?
Chapter LX Perspective
1. Was it any surprise to learn Miss Flite was a daily visitor to Esther's sick room? Or that she has appointed Richard executor of her will? As it turned out, is there irony in this?
2. Do you see Richard and Ada's marriage surviving the strain of this case no matter the outcome?
Chapter LXI A Discovery
1. Can you explain the coolness between Mr. Skimpole and John Jarndyce, whom he referred to as "the Incarnation of Selfishness" in his diary? What is Dickens implying with Skimpole's character?
2. Was Allan Woodcourt's confession to Esther expected? What did you think of Esther's response? Why does she consider her future path easier than his?
Chapter LXII Another Discovery
1. Did Allan's confession precipitate Esther's desire to return as the mistress of Bleak House as soon as possible?
2. Do you think John Jarndyce recognizes the importance of the paper Smallweed has found among Krook's papers? Do you think he's suspected all along of the existence of a will that was not in his interest?
Chapter LXIII Steel and Iron
1. How does George Rouncewell's brother react to his request to remove his name from his mother's will? Do you think Mrs. Rouncewell's will was of any importance?
2. Another letter, this one George will send to Esther, a letter addressed to George containing a letter from an unmarried woman. What was the unfortunate timing of the delivery of this letter? What is in this letter?
Chapter LXIV Esther's Narrative
1. Why did Esther's guardian furnish the gift house to look just like his own home? Was there a reason why this sweet little cottage is also named "Bleak House"? Why do you think Dickens named this book Bleak House?
2. Was Guppy's new-found magnanimity unbelievable? Would his new house and his "'eart-felt feelings" for Esther tempt her to consider his proposal? Was this scene strictly for comic relief or is Dickens making another point here?
Chapter LXV Beginning the World
1. What of the new will found among Krook's papers? Too good to be true? Would it have set things right, but for what followed?
2. What did you think of the ironic ending of the Jarndyce suit? Was it predictable? Can you find examples of the lighter mood throughout the Court House as bundles of papers and documents are dumped outside on the pavement?
3. How did Richard and Miss Flite handle the outcome of the case? Were they able to pick up and begin life, once free from Jarndyce?
Chapter LXVI Down in Lincolnshire
1. Do the dull, static days at Chesney Wold suggest what life would have been like without Lady Dedlock's presence? What makes it bearable for Sir Leicester? For his cousin, Volumina?
2. Was it made clear why Mr. George chose to live out his life here?
Chapter LXVII The Close of Esther's Narrative
1. What was revealed of Esther's life as Mrs. Allan Woodcourt? What did you think of Dickens' concluding chapter? Was it satisfying to you?
2. Do you think that his readers were pleased to read of the other characters in the book before closing?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I find Mr. Vholes disgusting. He hides behind his legal language, saying that he is monitoring Richard's affairs only because Richard has asked him to. Grrr. Mr. Vholes has entrapped Richard with all his gibberish about moving the case forward. He knows Richard's weakness and has preyed upon it. It's because of his payments to Vholes that Richard has spent all of his money and needs Ada's money. Vholes could be seen as one of the primary causes that results in Ada marrying Richard. How ironic that Vholes is saying that the marriage is a bad business.
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do you think marcie they guessed that Woodcourt would be meeting up and taking Esther home when John Jarndyce didn't show up for their usual meeting when he took her home. Then where did Mrs. Woodcourt go - plus I just do not see a lot of emotion on Esther's part for either John Jarndyce or for Woodcourt - she realizes she is happy and feels the affects of her illness did not stop Woodcourt's continued interest but she does not sound like there is a flutter for either - when she goes in to speak with John Jarndyce it sounds more like settling and making real an understanding - they sure do not act nor does she sound like someone in love. I do not know if this is because this is a Dickens omission or if the character is just so practical there is no deep emotion.
And so no change for you in your opinion of Vholes ;) :D
Welcome back Jude - sounds like a wonderful time seeing theatre - these modern settings for Shakespeare have become the thing haven't they - PBS has done a few - to me a good analogy is transferable so that the setting becoming more specific I never quite understood. Nothing against or for just never understood why. But then I notice some folks cannot imagine a room unless there is furniture in place and others can see beyond the furniture. Glad you will be able to add your views as we end this 2 month discussion.
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Barbara, I don't think that Esther was in love with Jarndyce. She loves and respects him as her guardian. Esther is a subdued narrator. She doesn't express her feelings openly, even to herself. But I do sense an undercurrent of feeling in her for Woodcourt. I think that Dickens has her crying quite a bit to show her conflicted emotions. I do think that Jarndyce knew that Woodcourt would accompany her home when he (Jarndyce) didn't appear.
She resolves to keep her feelings for Woodcourt in check, as she has up to now. She knows she can rely on Jarndyce and resolves that she will devote herself to him. Currently Woodcourt has no one else and declares his faithfulness to her despite her engagement to Jarndyce. I think that is what motivates her to say that her future path will be easier than Woodcourt's.
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"It all feels like Dickens is hurrying up and tying up the package so it can be delivered complete."
I'm thinking along those lines too, Barb. This last installment feels a bit like an epilogue..without the power of the previous chapters.- Esther, after some time in bed, seems to have bounced back from that nightmarish night, as if it never happened. Even Woodcourt's confession of love doesn't really portray a young couple in love - even though they say it's so. Esther even convinces herself that her life without Allan will be easier than his without her.
If we're to believe him, Mr. Vholes' real motivation is to provide for his father and his three daughters. He needs to make the most off of his clients, while preserving his reputation. He works hard, puts in long hours.
Somehow I don't see him as despicable as Mr. Skimpole. I don't see him suffering from any real mental challenges, as John Jarndyce believes. I see him as calculating - as he takes advantage of everyone he can - Why on earth did he turn against his most generous patron, wrtiing in his diary that he is the "Incarnation of Selfishness"?
Poor John Jarndyce. From the start I felt he was too good to be true. I expected to learn more about his background - and why he is so generous with his money - The one thing that would have made him happy would have been marriage to Esher. But as you say Marcie, she never did love him in a husband/wife way. Has anyone ever loved him like that? Don't you wish Dickens had spent more time on his character?
Welcome "home" Jude - so glad you will be with us for this last installment!
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BARB, I can't help but feel that Esther's early upbringing has much to do with her
way of keeping her emotions under control. She was told that she was a shame and disgrace
and deserved punishment. John Jarndyce's kindness and frequent praise of her has earned
her deep loyalty. She had made a commitment to him when she believed her feelings for
Allen Woodcourt could come to nothing. She is now resolved to honor that commitment, but
it makes her happy to know that Allen did care.
I'm not sure why we expected a more lasting reaction from Esther to Lady Dedlock's
death. It meant a great deal to her to know who her mother was, but she barely knew the
woman. They had met, what?..three times? There was a very emotional explanation and
mutual comforting. A further burden was added to Esther's load...the fear of the truth
coming out and harming her mother. I'm sure Esther was sad and grieved, but not as she
would be for someone she knew well and loved dearly.
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Good points Babi - I know after all that has happened and looking in so to speak as a reader I know I looked for more drama - and I agree but thought there would be just a bit more of a flutter from Esther over one or the other of the two men in her life - ah so...but dead on for the death of Lady Deadlock - in fact I think her taking to her bed was described as in response to the night in the storm.
Bucket sure knows how to handle Smallweed when they visit John Jarndyce - not yet finished to learn the purpose of their meeting but I should get to that today...
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looking for...'a bit more of a flutter from Esther over one or the other of the two men in her life'
I can see the point you're making, Barb, but that would seem to be unlikely with the character that Dickens has given poor Esther, the victim of being born illegitimate and unwanted. Her life has been a fierce effort to feel needed and loved, with self-examination taking precedence over everything else. It's difficult enough to feel lovable under normal circumstances for everyone.
But...only TWO men in her life? Have you forgotten about Guppy? He's the only one who has truly loved her from cover to cover. In the true, romantic sense. I can't forgive Dickens for bringing Guppy in for a final scene, just to make a fool of himself. Unless Dickens cannot forget his own first love and his rejection.
'Why on earth did he (Skimpole) turn against his most generous patron?'
Good question, Joan. On the face of it, it seems that Dickens is trying to make a Judas Iscariot of honest Harold Skimpole. Betrayal for a few shekels?
I can't believe the many forms that victimization takes on in Dickens narrative. I still feel sorriest of all for Tulkinghorn, the victim of a woman's hate.
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Jonathan - did you notice that Dickens did not mention Tulkinghorn even once in this last Installment? What does that say about his importance in the story? Before his murder, I'd have said that he was a central character in this criticism of the legal system of the time. I really wish we had learned more about what made Tulkinghorn the man he was.
Maybe the purpose of the last installment was simply to show how life went on "après Tulkinghorn" and après Jarndyce vs. Jarndyce...- and he felt compelled to focus on each character for his readers.
I agree with you, he should have left poor Guppy to nurse his broken 'eart in private.
Did I understand correctly, Barbara? - Smallweed has become a member of Parliament for a few shekels?
- Or did I misread that?
Do you think Richard had to die? Couldn't he have survived the outcome of the case and started the world anew with Ada and his child?
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Dickens may make fun of Guppy--his accent, his overlong hair, and those dreadful striped trousers in the illustrations--but Guppy still comes out of it with some dignity. He has been very clever in his deductions of Esther's origins. He has been honorable in keeping Lady D informed of things, even though she treats him scornfully. He has bettered himself by his own efforts--working hard to get his certification and set up a practice for himself. And he takes his final rejection with dignity, even if his mother does not.
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What did you think of Esther's reaction to his proposal, Pat?
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I was thinking Guppy was a self pompous man who felt for himself first and in proposing to Ester he was mainly concerned for appearances and the fact that
she would better his chances for moving up the ladder so to speak especially with her being a ward of J.
I tried to like Guppy from the first but feel with the name he was given by Dickens we are to think of him as swimming in a world too big for him; and comedy is brought into play in his continually trying to mesh with those around him by using a high brow language that surely must register poorly with those around him!!!!!!
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Guppy does make a third 'romantic' interest, doesn't he? I can't see him as one who
truly loved her, tho'. He definitely thought she was pretty, and loved to romanticize
himself pining over her, but he dropped her quick enough after her illness left her
scarred. Then, when her prospects improved, he (and his horrible mama) were quick to
do her the honor of proposing.
As for Tulkinghorn, giving so many people cause to hate him, it's not really surprising
to me that he was murdered. Yet I agree with you, that the murderess had the least cause
to do so.
PAT, thanks for reminding us of Guppy's good points. He is capable of even better
things, in time, I believe.
It's sad about Richard. But he wore himself out in his struggle, physically and emotionally.
He made many mistakes, as he knew at the end. IMO, he simply had not the powers of endurance
that might have enabled him to recover.
As for the ending of the Jarndyce case, you could see it coming. The lawyers on all
sides were making a lifelong income out of this case, and no doubt others as well. It
was only a matter of time before the 'estate' coffers were empty.
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Deb, I agree, Dickens seemed to make Guppy an object of dersion from the start - his very name. I did feel sorry for him at the start - he appeared to have feelings for Esther - but he quickly lost my sympathy when he had a change of 'art after seeing her altered face. Does anyone really believe he fell back in love with Esther at the end? I felt Dickens was continuing to make fun of Guppy, right up to the end.
Yes, Babi - we saw what was going to happen with the contested Jarndyce fortune - from the very beginning. I was amused at the merriment in the courthouse as the bags and boxes of Jarndyce paperwork was dumped on the pavement outside the courthouse. Just about everyone was amused - except those whose hopes of becoming rich were dashed...Richard in particular. How did Miss Flite take it? Am remembering that she had made Richard executor of her will. Was Miss Flite's case interwoven with the Jarndyce case - or is hers yet to be decided?
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Do you find it is the lesser characters who keep the drama flowing? We never do get any closer to those we considered the "leads" at the start - Lady Dedlock, Tulkinghorn, or even John Jarndyce for that matter. We know more about Esther, because Dickens has given her a chance to be heard through her narratives.
George Rouncewell and his desire to be "scratched" from his mother's will - none of this was explained. Good that the wealthier brother persuaded him not to to that, as George lived out the rest of his life with his mother.
Perhaps the reason to include George in this final Installment was to send Esther that letter - It was addressed to an "unmarried" woman which I gather was Lady Dedlock.
We don't know anything more than that. What do you imagine was in the letter to Lady Dedlock from Esther's father?
It must have meant something to Esther, but as has been pointed out, though these were her parents, she never knew them and so Esther is able to proceed with the life she has made for herself without being too affected by what she learned about them.
I don't know about you - but if these were my parents, I think I'd have been far more affected that Esther appears to have been.
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Joan P
You feel you would have been more affected if those were your parents than Esther seems to be.
However you may be thinking of parentts with whom you grew up , knew intimately and cared for and cared for you.
Esthers parents are Theoretical parents over whom she has no say or real feeling.
Her life has been more as a adopted child or a foster child. Just knowing the names and status of her parents has made a great difference in her life.
Esther is a person of great discipline and the ability to follow what is expected of her. To fall into a world where real love and affection exist has been a wonderful change for her.
She, like so many of Dickens Heros and Heroines, comes from nothing in the way of live to a surfeit of love from many people. In the end she is a typical Dickens main character. Almost without a flaw, only her physical beauty slightly marred,
Along the way of this transformation she, and we, have met a myriad of fascinating characters, both good and bad (Some very, very bad-close to evil).
But the good people have won out and we can lay the book to rest with a warm feeling in our hearts. Dickens has once again taken us on a ride full of wonders and thrills and tears and terror and landed us onto a field of happiness.
P.S. Of all the horrible characters I still despise Skimpole the most.
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"Esther, like so many of Dickens Heros and Heroines, comes from nothing in the way of live to a surfeit of love from many people. In the end she is a typical Dickens main character."
Jude, that's a really good point. Dickens had proposed so many interesting plot lines...perhaps too many to satisfactorily resolved all of them. I would have liked to learn more about how Sir Leicester and Esther's mother got together. And John Jarndyce, why he had never married, why he made Esther his housekeeper when she first arrived At Bleak House.
I'm realizing as I type this that this is not my story to tell. It is Dickens' - and we just have to be content with what he wants to tell us. Do you suppose he purposely omits questions he knows we are wondering about and leaves them to our imagination?
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Joan P
Yes , I do believe that Dickens leaves certain things to our imagination.
He doesn't flesh out every character or solve every problem. Yet he answers our main concerns about the Hero or Heroine.
I somehow think if he did flesh out what happened to each of the characters we would start getting bored. The book already runs over 800 pages.
If I look back again and think what was wonderful about the book it is the beautiful language. Very often it is not what Dickens writes but how he writes it. The gorgeous descriptions and the atmosphere that he creates are genius.
He makes readers empathise and love who he wants them to love and hate those he wants us to hate.
Again the only word to describe such as he, is genius. We have acquired a world that didn't exist for us before reading this book. If only every author could do such as Dickens has done for us.
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Haven't just had to sit back with my head on the back of the sofa after completing a book in a long long time - what a storyteller - it was as if I was in that world - and yes Jude, the beautiful language and as you also say, gorgeous descriptions -
I'm with you JoanP wishing there was more explaining how Sir Leicester and Esther's mother got together. And John Jarndyce, why he had never married, why he made Esther his housekeeper when she first arrived At Bleak House. Add to that from where did his money come?
There is a lot of folks living with each other at the drop of a hat - and it was nice to learn what happened to Peppy - I think it was you Jude who earlier said Dickens ties up all the loose ends by explaining all his characters. George was rounded out nicely and poor Guppy - he was reaching above himself for Esther - I think he really did care and was showing the only way he knew which was to assure her physical security and comfort. But his mother was probably the bane of his existence his whole life. Old Weever didn't do him any favors did he. Guppy was good to him but he did not reciprocate.
Still cannot fathom why John Jarndyce names his house Bleak House - is there another definition we missed?
Oh yes, and with a mouth full of blood I guess Richard had consumption - living as they did without the benefit of fresh, healthy, food and air, under stress as he was sure adds up - the others, even the lawyers all have a house outside the city but Richard like Smallweed and a few others were part of the oldest part of London with its damp and poverty.
I wonder if the ghost's footsteps died with Lady Deadlock? Well the atmosphere of this story will stay with me for awhile - one of his best - I must say that I often envisioned the scenery with a later time in London filled with street atmosphere - the movie My Fair Lady - more so than the various re-creations of Dickens stories in a movie.
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JOANP, I had the strong impression that George, having 'run off' to the army, felt he
did not deserve a share in whatever his Mother had accumulated. He felt his family had
every right to be angry with him. His brother disabused him of that notion. I loved this
chapter simply for the healing that took place for the Rouncewells.
What was in the latter to Lady Dedlock from Esther's father? I can only suppose what
one would expect from a lover and fiance. The assurance of his love for her and his
happiness at knowing they would be together always. As young people, don't we always
believe things are going to turn out as we plan? I felt that Esther was comforted by
that knowledge.
I'm with you, JUDE. If Skimpole had a redeeming quality, I never saw it. I also couldn't
agree more about Dickens' genius. The descriptions and atmosphere, definitely. The sly
humor. The ability to define a character so vividly. I am really hate to see this discussion
coming to an end; it has been so rich, stimulating and worthwhile.
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The contrast between the Rouncewell brothers is interesting. George is rackety and a bit disreputable, but honest, good-hearted, loyal, strong but gentle. He has come back to Chesney Wold and taken an almost feudal role, taking care of Sir Leicester and living with his mother, the housekeeper.
His brother has rejected the role of servant, made a fortune, and is busily making a place for himself as a man of consequence and influence, and educating his children for this new place in life.
I can't help feeling that Dickens approves more of George than his brother. George is described with affection, and although Dickens isn't unsympathetic to the ironmaster, he describes the bleak, black, sooty iron country with dislike, and Rosa is being systematically groomed to fit her to be Watt's wife almost as though she were a prize racehorse.
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I finally finished the book last night, so I’m bringing up the rear on comments.
I thought it was a well balanced ending to the book --- complete with sadness and hapiness. Even Mr. Jarndyce preparing the cottage for Esther and Allan was believable to me, the way Dickens wrote it.
The book is filled with unforgettable characters, which is one of the things that will stay with me, but I do wish we had learned a bit more about Mr. Jarndyce.
Symbolically, Richard had to die. Not only had the lawsuit used up all its potential benefits in its monetary costs, but Richard’s death reminds the readers of the human costs of the convoluted legal system.
I felt a bit sorry for Guppy, with the harsh rejection of his proposal by Mr. Jarndyce. However, it really took some nerve for Guppy to propose again after officially withdrawing his proposal after seeing Esther’s scarring. No wonder Mr. Jarndyce threw him out!
The style of writing in this last installment was more straight forward and to the point than the other installments. There was no more drama to create, just a summing up and ending of the story. In a way, I felt that Dickens stretched the other parts of the story to fit the twenty installment plan. We certainly knew enough detail from prior installments to understand what was being told literally and figuratively in this wrap up installment.
What a book! What a discussion!
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I love everyone's comments. You each have added so much to my reading of this book. I'm so glad that I read it while having the opportunity to hear your thoughts and questions. I
I too think that Dickens was a genius in creating characters to which we can emotionally react. It will be fun to read Great Expectations together in July. I hope that everyone here will be in that discussion.
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Oh yes, Marcie - I hope that all of the Bleak House gang will join us here again for the discussion of Great Expectations in July. I think we will be more aware of the issues close to Dickens' heart. We won't meet as many characters, but can expect the same glorious writing and character depiction.
Before we end this discussion, I'd really like to hear your thoughts about the title Dickens finally settled on for this novel. Was there a reason why Jarndyce named the little cottage he prepared for Esther and Allan W. "Bleak House"? Now there are two houses with the name Bleak House.
The Norton Critical Edition includes Dickens' notes for the title of Bleak House. These notes, in his own hand on the usual blue sheets of paper, can be viewed today in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London.
From the start, it seems he had planned to name the novel Tom-All-Alone's, at times, The Ruined House, Bleak House Academy - and finally Bleak House won the honor.
I've been wondering for some time now about the importance of this house in the novel - so important that it would be chosen as the book's title.
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yes I must agree what a wonderful read & I know I would not
have finished the book except having a group to propel me thru
the unfamiliar type of language used --and enlightened by the
discussions of what I suppose was just routine familiar circumstances
during the times Dicken's lived
wasn't sure how Dickens was going to transfer the engagement
of Esther from her guardian to the doctor; feel like we missed something
due to not knowing the feelings of her guardian...he has his room to vent but seems to flow with the tide when I would have thought there
might be more sadness of his loss of Esther and her future role in his life
as his wife (his character was just too self-sacrificing to believe for me
was wondering why Esther after one short disclosing moment where she finds
her mother would not have much more sadness from learning of her death...
but after reading the comments and remembering her childhood experience
being remote from what one hopes for children being brought up, can see
(being that she never knew her mother but for one moment) her able to distance
herself from the people who conceived her....a sad fairy tale
am glad to have the opportunity knowing 'Great Expectations' will be the group's
read in July, to read another of Dicken's books ...looking forward to that
...though my regular reading has taken a back burner to this read so have June to catch up on some of that
I found I got caught up emotionally in the last 4-5 chapters ....somehow that never happened earlier; so will be interested in the second read of a Dicken's book
Deb
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JoanP, I couldn't figure out why Dickens titled the book, Bleak House, so I searched the web for possible explanations. I found the following article which describes the possible many layers of the title and how it fits the England that Dickens is describing and criticizing and how it also points to a solution for the social ills of the day.
http://carmel.wheaton.edu/sites/default/files/Nineteenth-CF.pdf
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OK Marcie you posted as I was writing and the article is a gem - as the article says the book represents every level of cheerlessness that can be imagined.
I think I will add the information I also found
about thinking Bleak as an adjective and when Iooked up the definition there is a noun version
a small silvery shoaling fish of the minnow family, found in Eurasian rivers.
Genera Alburnus and Chalcalburnus, family Cyprinidae: several species, in particular A. alburnus
further information about the fish written for fishermen
The small fry of European waters, gudgeon, bleak, minnow, loach, stickleback and bullhead, are principally of value as bait for other fish, though the first-named species gives pretty sport on fine tackle and makes a succulent dish. Small red worms are the best bait for gudgeon and minnows, a maggot or small fly for bleak, and the rest are most easily caught in a small-meshed net. The loach is used principally in Ireland as a trout bait, and the other two are of small account as hook-baits, though sticklebacks are a valuable form of food for trout in lakes and pools.
I wonder if Bleak House is a noun rather than an adjective to house - I can see all sorts of analagies to John Jarndyce and in fact the house as to characters that would have been bait - maggots, small fly, using a small-meshed net - that would be a satisfying way to describe Skimpole - a maggot. I can even see John Jarndyce as bait for other larger fish - hmm you have to wonder - other than this I cannot find anything.
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This is interesting...
Just before writing Bleak House in 1852, Charles Dickens took a break from being a novelist. He was in the middle of his career, had already written some extremely popular books (including Oliver Twist and A Christmas Carol), and was already a super-famous guy (and well on his way to being the most famous person in the world!). Still, he took a couple of years off. Not to relax or anything, but to work on some other stuff: finding funding for cleaning up London slums, being a public health and anti-pollution activist, thinking about getting into Parliament, and reading about the ridiculousness of the Court of Chancery. When he did finally get back to writing novels, he put out a series of very long, very complex works. Each has zillions of characters living at every level of society. Each focuses on a specific institution or bureaucracy, which is usually strongly criticized and mercilessly mocked. And each is a masterpiece.
Bleak House was the first of these later novels (the others are Little Dorrit, Our Mutual Friend, and Great Expectations)...
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Thank you for finding the paper on the meaning of Bleak House, Marcie.
Esther is the central character of the book. At the beginning of the book, we see her arriving at Bleak House to start her new life as a ward of Mr. Jarndyce. At the end of the book, we see her settling in at her new cottage, also called Bleak House. Esther has come full circle, starting at a Bleak House and re-starting at a Bleak House. I thought the title was a way to tie together the book and the circle of life, specifically Esther’s life.
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Good point, PATH. I think providing Rosa with the opportunity of a good education was
great, but I can see a problem with the idea that she is to be made a 'fit' wife for
Watt. Rosa loves him, though, and she may see the whole thing as a wonderful passage
into a better life.
The cottage seemed a bit much, LAURA, but I think you're right that Dickens made it
believable. The little house was also a blessing to Jarndyce, as it became the place
where it had a loving 'family'.
JOANP, there's no way, really, to know why Dickens chose the title of "Bleak House".
But I like to think, since it refers to the unhappy ending of old Tom Jarndyce, that
he wanted the cottage to represent the restoration of happiness. It does seem a fitting
end to the book.
As a small note of farewell, a final walk in the moonlight.
“Light mists arise, and the dew falls, and all the sweet scents in the garden are heavy
in the air. Now, the woods settle into great masses as if they were each one profound
tree. And now the moon rises, to separate them, and to glimmer here and there in
horizontal line behind their stems, and to make the avenue a pavement of light among
high cathedral arches fantastically broken."
It's been lovely.
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I feel terribly frustrated at the outcome of Jarndyce and Jarndyce. If Dickens wanted to make the point that lawyers are not looking out for the interests of their clients, he couldn't have done it better. Any lawyer involved in the case could have seen that coming years ahead--court costs must have been reckoned up at intervals--and warned his client that there would be no point in continuing. But instead, they kept on getting their fees (which would be paid by the clients, not out of the estate) as long as they could, baankrupting both the clients and the estate.
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One loose end--When Esther met her mother at Chesney Wold, Lady D gave her a letter. Esther retells part of the letter, and says the rest is for later in her story. I don't remember ever getting the rest of the letter. Did we?
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I guess this is the last day. What an amazing discussion! I could never have believed we could get so much out of the book, and it took all of us to do it, plus some very hard work on the part of our fearless leaders. Thank you, JoanP, marcie, Babi, and JoanK, plus everyone whose great ideas added so much.
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so often we read and want a follow up book about what happened to the characters but for this book we need an apres - that whole triangle between the captain, Lady D and sir Deadlock needs unraveling and the earlier life of John Jarndyce - I do not think any of these characters are in any of the other books written by Dickens - we are just left hanging - ah so...
Seems to me isn't that the very issue that is addressed soon after this book is published by the court system - the fleecing of the principles in a suite - earlier someone found and shared that there was an ordinance or laws that changed the system.
A law suite today can still eat up valuable time and money - do not ever sue - take the hit and go on especially if the other party is represented by an insurance company - sometimes you cannot avoid it but I will never sue anyone - their discovery goes back to your childhood - for me that meant signing that they could get my report cards from the schools I attended - you are tied up with the nonsense for over a year that they hope will wear you down - and that is within the past 10 years not in England but here in the USA. Madness... the time I have left is more valuable than that and when we are younger we need to think on how we want to live our life. I guess I would not be a good Richard - do not think I could be a good Ada and stand beside a Richard -
Of all of them Caddy seems to have come out on top - with all her bellyaching about her mother she sure learned a great deal from her that she has parlayed into a successful business and the part of her mother's life that was also annoying she was conscious that she could do better and better she did...
Yes Pat it was an amazing discussion - everyone really got into it and the discussion leaders were fantastic - thanks for a memorable couple of months - really memorable...
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It's hard to let go, isn't it? An overwhelming piece of fiction. Madness, Barb? Certainly. But also a tease, with all the ghosts around, as you keep reminding us. And perhaps a fish story if your research has any validity. Dickens caught a tiny bleak on his line, wondered what to do with it, and decided on a story. What a whopper.
Bleak runs through the book. Who handles it best? John Jarndyce? Or Skimpole? I'm determined to find a saving grace in Skimpole. He looked for the beautiful in life. A born artist. And that was the cross he had to bear. He did try to make life a joy for others. Did, in fact, make a frontal assault on 'bleak'.
Still to be determined: 'the issues close to Dickens's heart'. Was it the court costs? Or the human costs? He certainly left the issue of justice unresolved. Mr Tulkinghorn's death is a red herring. But that sounds too much like where we came in....
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It's hard to let go, isn't it? An overwhelming piece of fiction.
Oh Jonathan, yes it is. No matter how many mysteries we unravelled, more occur. I've got to say, your efforts to ennoble Skimpole are admirable. But can you explain why he would denounce John Jarndyce as the most selfish man ever to live - after all he has done for him? Even Esther, who had always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt changed her mind about him at that.
"Still to be determined: 'the issues close to Dickens's heart'." Maybe there were multiple issues...
*****************************************************************
One loose end--When Esther met her mother at Chesney Wold, Lady D gave her a letter. Esther retells part of the letter, and says the rest is for later in her story. I don't remember ever getting the rest of the letter. Did we? PatH
So much of the story was revealed in letters, wasn't it? I've been wondering all along when Esther learned who her father was, PatH. Maybe you've just answered the question... That might have been included in the letter Lady Dedlock handed her that day they spoke at Chesney Wold.
There was also another letter where that information might have been given to Esther, but I feel that she must have known this before she received the letter George Rouncewell mailed to her. Did you understand that this letter was initially sent to Lady Dedlock - by Esther's father? We don't know what was in that letter, do we? I understood that Esther's father died at sea, wasn't that the story? But we know that the Captain was Nemo...and we know that Lady Dedlock knew that he was alive long after Esther's birth - she even knew where he was buried.
As you say, Barb, I think we have to add this to our list of questions. Why didn't Lady Dedlock marry Esther's father? He didn't die at sea, which would have explained things...
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without re-visiting the chapters that said this or that as I remember she only learned of his being alive from Guppy so that she would have been married to Sir Leicester when she was made aware of his life - and in fact seems to me she only learned he was alive after he was dead and then paid Jo to lead her to the cemetery. This lady's heart could not win for loosing in this story. We never do learn her feelings for Sir Leicester only that he loved her - as large and all encompassing the story so much is left hanging... only goes to show what believable characters Dickens created that we took to our hearts and wanted to know more and more about each of them.
I guess when you think on it Skimpole provided John Jarndyce with a house-full of music and yes, I think Jonathan reminds us he was an artist as well. ;) with a personality along the lines of Frank Lloyd Write - selfish with a capitol S.
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Barbara, that's true, we have to remember that Mr. Skimpole brought music and levity to Bleak House. No small contribution when you think of it.
We'll have to keep in find what you found when we get to Great Exectations. In these later books, he portrays "many characters at every level of society each focusing on a specific institution of the bureacracy." When you are this ambitious, focusing on such a broad spectrum, it is difficult to provide insight into the lives and hearts of every single character... :D I'll still come away from the story wondering why the Captain didn't come to Honoria when he reached dry land.
Wow, Marcie! That was a really helpful link on the choice of Bleak House as title. I've got to tell you this - every time I looked at the photograph of the house which was said to have inspired Dickens' Bleak House, I've been reluctant to consider that house as John Jarndyce's home - his "Bleak House." Doesn't it look more like you picture Chesney Wold? I felt the same way about the picture house in the frontispiece in this book.
I found it very interesting the idea that the title - "Bleak House" refers "every gloomy house in the book, including Chesney Wold, described as the "crumbling fortress of the aristocracy. The article goes even further - the title includes the whole society of Elizabethan England - the greatest of his Bleak Houses - its foundation in the mud of the past, the door to change rusted on its hinges."
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"I feel terribly frustrated at the outcome of Jarndyce and Jarndyce. If Dickens wanted to make the point that lawyers are not looking out for the interests of their clients, he couldn't have done it better"
PatH, I think you hit on it just right. As has been said, Dickens approached his later books with characters at every level of society, each focusing on a specific institution of bureacracy...and as you put it, his focus here, among other institutions was on the outdated justice system that made it possible for lawyers to bilk their clients of their very lives.
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JoanP, you ask "I'll still come away from the story wondering why the Captain didn't come to Honoria when he reached dry land."
I'm assuming that by the time he reached England, Honoria was already married to Sir L. She thought that her lover was lost at sea. She had birthed his child, which she was told had died.
We don't know when Honoria and Sir L met, but apparently Sir L fell in love with her and wanted to marry her. Since she lost her passion for life in what she thought was the deaths of her first love and her child, she put her energies into being at the pinnacle of society and bringing reflected social prestige to Sir L... a life that bored her.
Captain Howden wouldn't have intruded in her married life. He may have thought she never really loved him. He went downhill, likely from sorrow and despair at losing Honoria.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in
Bleak House
by Charles Dickens
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/cover.jpg) |
Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.
The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.
The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
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(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmagnanimous.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmagnanimous.jpg)
Magnanimus Conduct of Mr. Guppy
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INSTALMENT
XIX
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DATE of PUBLICATION
Aug. 1853
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CHAPTERS
60-67
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DISCUSSION DATES
May 16-20
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmausaleum.jpg) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/illmausaleum.jpg)
The Mausoleum at Chesney Wold
(click to enlarge) |
Some Topics to Consider
Here are some questions to start, but we'd really like to hear from you.
What are some of your own questions and observations on these concluding chapters?
Chapter LX Perspective
1. Was it any surprise to learn Miss Flite was a daily visitor to Esther's sick room? Or that she has appointed Richard executor of her will? As it turned out, is there irony in this?
2. Do you see Richard and Ada's marriage surviving the strain of this case no matter the outcome?
Chapter LXI A Discovery
1. Can you explain the coolness between Mr. Skimpole and John Jarndyce, whom he referred to as "the Incarnation of Selfishness" in his diary? What is Dickens implying with Skimpole's character?
2. Was Allan Woodcourt's confession to Esther expected? What did you think of Esther's response? Why does she consider her future path easier than his?
Chapter LXII Another Discovery
1. Did Allan's confession precipitate Esther's desire to return as the mistress of Bleak House as soon as possible?
2. Do you think John Jarndyce recognizes the importance of the paper Smallweed has found among Krook's papers? Do you think he's suspected all along of the existence of a will that was not in his interest?
Chapter LXIII Steel and Iron
1. How does George Rouncewell's brother react to his request to remove his name from his mother's will? Do you think Mrs. Rouncewell's will was of any importance?
2. Another letter, this one George will send to Esther, a letter addressed to George containing a letter from an unmarried woman. What was the unfortunate timing of the delivery of this letter? What is in this letter?
Chapter LXIV Esther's Narrative
1. Why did Esther's guardian furnish the gift house to look just like his own home? Was there a reason why this sweet little cottage is also named "Bleak House"? Why do you think Dickens named this book Bleak House?
2. Was Guppy's new-found magnanimity unbelievable? Would his new house and his "'eart-felt feelings" for Esther tempt her to consider his proposal? Was this scene strictly for comic relief or is Dickens making another point here?
Chapter LXV Beginning the World
1. What of the new will found among Krook's papers? Too good to be true? Would it have set things right, but for what followed?
2. What did you think of the ironic ending of the Jarndyce suit? Was it predictable? Can you find examples of the lighter mood throughout the Court House as bundles of papers and documents are dumped outside on the pavement?
3. How did Richard and Miss Flite handle the outcome of the case? Were they able to pick up and begin life, once free from Jarndyce?
Chapter LXVI Down in Lincolnshire
1. Do the dull, static days at Chesney Wold suggest what life would have been like without Lady Dedlock's presence? What makes it bearable for Sir Leicester? For his cousin, Volumina?
2. Was it made clear why Mr. George chose to live out his life here?
Chapter LXVII The Close of Esther's Narrative
1. What was revealed of Esther's life as Mrs. Allan Woodcourt? What did you think of Dickens' concluding chapter? Was it satisfying to you?
2. Do you think that his readers were pleased to read of the other characters in the book before closing?
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Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse_characterlist.html); Map of London 1851 (http://london1851.com/images/cross12b.jpg) (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/mysteries.html); Interactive Map of London (http://www.charlesdickenspage.com/dickens_london_map.html)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bleakhouse/bleakhouse1920c.jpg)
Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge. |
DLs: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Marcie (marciei@aol.com
), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), Babi (jonkie@verizon.net), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Loose ends...
Thanks, Marcie - I marvel at the irony of the situation. Can't imagine how I would have felt learning of my parents' love lost - and how different things might have been in my own life.
I've read the letter George asked his brother to put in the mail for Esther. I can see that "the beautiful lady" had arrived in the West Indies, presumably to meet the ship, when word came that the letter writer had been officially drowned in an Irish harbor. The letter was addressed to Mr. George with instructions as to how, when where he was to deliver the letter to the lady. Why did the captain hold on to this letter when he made it to shore? Had he learned that the lady had already married Sir Leicester?
Don't you wonder how Esther reacted to the letter from Mr. George - his letter, and the enclosed letter from her father to her mother? I can see where Dickens readers would have been expecting a follow-up installment. He knew how to keep his readers wanting more.
We never did hear another word about Spontaneous Combustion, did we? When Krook met his end, and Nemo died of an overdose, I suspected they were murdered. Tulkinghorn's shooting suggested there was a single murderer loose...but when Hortense confessed, the deaths of the others were quickly forgotten. Did Krook really die from Spontaneous Combustion as Dickens implied?
Do you have any other loose ends to report before we put this book back on the shelf? Last chance...
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Well, as a humorous footnote, I will report on a different Bleak House.
In Knoxville Tenn., in 1858, a mansion, built by slave labor was christened "Bleak House" after the name of the novel.
Today, it belongs to the DAR and serves as a popular site for weddings!
No accounting for taste. Perhaps Marcie should send them a copy of that fascinating article she found.
I doubt they would read it.
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Jude, the article Marcie found broadened our understanding of what Dickens intended with his Bleak House title - but - a "Bleak House" for weddings! Dickens did include a number of weddings, didn't he - including a few almosts. Lady D almost married her captain, but did marry Sir Leicester, Esther almost married John Jarndyce, but did marry Allan Woodcourt, Ada married Richard, Rosa and Wat...
At the end, though he tackled the social issues of the day, included a murder or two, he really did write quite a romantic Victorian love story, didn't he?
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LOL, Jude!
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I never thought either death, Krook or Hawdon, was murder. Krook, with his drinking,
litter, and general oily, unwashed condition, was a walking invitation to disaster.
Captain Hawdon had been on the road to his final end for years. I don't believe the
suggestion that Krook died of spontaneous combustion, but that the oils (and fatty wax?)
on him caused an exceedingly intense heat once he got too close the the fire.
From slave labor to weddings! Well, doesn't that, in a way, reflect the history of
Dickens' Bleak House,JUDE. serendipity, I call it. ;)
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The whole thing was serendipitous, wasn't it Babi? Had we not been celebrating Dickens' 200th birthday, we probably wouldn't have chosen Bleak House for discussion. I'm so glad we did.
Without you, Babi, Marcie, PatH and JoanK, we probably wouldn't have been able to stay with such a long book - and discussion. Thank you, DLs! And without the contributions and insights from all of our participants, we would not have learned so much! Thanks everyone! Let's do it again...More Dickens in July. Can't wait. Having a difficult time putting Bleak House back on the shelf - can you tell? ;)