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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about. When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes." Goodreads review
"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14 |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1)
Some Topics for Discussion
July 14-20
Part I Chapter 1 ~ The Way Over
1. Why were so many of America's young people heading off to Paris in the 1830's? Would you have gone? Could you have gone?
2. How familiar are you with the many names McCullough mentions in the opening chapter? Which ones? How do you think he selected them for his focus?
3. Are you beginning to understand McCullough's choice for the book's title? How would you have survived the sea journey described here?
4. First stop - Rouen! Have you ever entered Paris from Le Havre - through Rouen? Can you imagine the impression the ancient cathedral made on the visitors from the New World?
Chapter 2. Voilà Paris!
1. Americans were struck by how little Parisians knew about America. How much did they know about Paris when they sailed?
2. Do you remember how many Americans were in Paris in 1830? Will they have an impact on the city? What was the political climate in Paris when they arrived? Was it safe for the newly-arrived Americans?
3. Do you sense that McCullough has narrowed his cast of characters at the end of this chapter? Were you familiar with these names? John Sanderson, Emma Willard, Charles Sumner? Where does Nathaniel Willis fit in? Do you anything about this man David McCullough is quoting so frequently?
4. Have you read any of the works of James Fenimore Cooper, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry W. Longfellow? How long ago? How about Victor Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame?
5. The conviction of the French: "the Arts are indispensable to the enjoyment and meaning of life." In what ways did the Americans find their own country deficient?
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marci (marciei@aol.com )
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Welcome, everyone!
Bastille Day! July 14, 1789
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(http://www.travelweekly.com.au/getattachment/47371355-7457-41df-8e36-8760d17d3daf/Prise_de_la_Bastille.jpg.aspx)
I've a question maybe you can answer - We read that so many of America's young people were heading off to Paris - in the early 1800's, not so long after the storming of the Bastille, overthrowing the monarchy in 1789. - Then there was the July Revolution of 1830, in which 3000 people were killed in Paris.
Would you have gone to Paris? Could you have gone? Would your parents have financed your passage?
I asked my husband - he suggested that it was possible the conditions in Paris weren't known in America - as there was no telegraph at the time. It does strike me reading these chapters that the Americans in Paris seem to be unaware or unfazed by what was happening outside of their own circles...although I can't see them not noticing the bloodshed in 1830 or the lingering conditions in the years following.
Paris and the July Revolution of 1830 (http://home.eckerd.edu/~oberhot/paris-siege-1830.htm)
(http://home.eckerd.edu/~oberhot/image-liberty-leading.jpg)
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Since it was another 8 years before the first of my great grandparents arrived in the US for me it is a moot question - sailing here was a brave enough venture - starting a new life, leaving behind generations of family and tradition in Germany, one from Alsace and two from Ireland in the 1840s - they were not among those families who were traveling for experience, education and curiosity.
As a young teen James Fenimore Cooper was my favorite author - I believe I read all the Leatherstocking tales - I still find copies of his books that include the art work of N.C. Wyeth or Thomas Cole and save them for gifts to children and even to new Babies, adding a few other books as a start to their library.
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Perhaps it's the wrong time to go. If I'm going to lose my pants like the poor devil in Delacroix's painting...that's an education I wasn't counting on. But I've bookmarked the link to 'Paris and the July Revolution of 1830. It promises more information about the turbulent city. The text ends with: 'Thus ended, finally, the Bourban reign that started with Henry IV in 1590.'
That's Henry IV on the cover. On his horse at the Pont Neuf. That, no doubt, was the Paris Americans thought they were travelling to. Glorious, isn't it? Now, can we judge the book by its cover. I've never seen a better one. And the endpapers with the rue de Rivoli (the one Mark Twain had read about) and the avenue de l'Opera at the back promise a glorious adventure. But the Paris commune haunts French history. They're all Jeffersonians in Paris. Every generation should have its revolution.
I'm not surprised that McCullough leads of with a bridge. He had such a great success with The Great One. And now I'm comparing Pont Neuf with the Pont Brooklyn. This will never do. With that tremendous goal still thundering in my head!
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I had such a glorious time at the beach on Asbridges Bay the other day, with the girls in short shorts practicing their volleyball on the sand. And now I realize I left my book on the beach. Oh well. It was just one of those light reads. Nothing substantial like The Greatest Journey.
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Pont Neuf the oldest bridge in Paris wrapped by Christo in 1985
(http://christo.vaesite.net/__data/f4c8737e05e51189acbcd65be3379040.jpg)
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The French Revolution of 1830 was as if Mary Poppins came to town and said spit spot so that in 3 days they got rid of the king and his government - see if Occupy had just read French History they too may have been able to take their cause into fruition - ;)
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First impressions: Six weeks on a ship with no cabins; how did they stock provisions for the trip? No bathrooms! Seemingly the Americans who chose to undertake such an adventure were of inquisitive minds and were well educated for their time. Plus three distinguished American statesmen had spent time in Paris and would not have been shy about their experiences, much less their opinions, so while the experience of Paris was lacking there surely would have been information. Lastly, McCullough is lie being there. I can feel their wonder and joie de vivre. America must have been cheerless, we never have outgrown our Puritan heritage. Standing by and observing carefree Parisians' pursuit of pleasure-talk about culture shock! Since McCullough chose relative unknowns to speak we can accept their views objectively.
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No way! I'm a coward! Although on my maternal side of the family 4 brothers came to the colonies in the 1730's, and my father made the sea voyage to and fro to France in 1917 as a draftee into WWI, i can't imagine getting on a sailing ship, or a steamship to cross the North Atlantic. The adventurer gene obviously diminished as it descended to me.
Why were they going? Well, France had been the center of education and culture on and off for centuries. I guess people looked at France the way they look at the U.S. today. It was the place to go.
Mccullough states his title on the last page of chapter one: "great as their journey had been by sea, a greater journey had begun, as they already sensed, and from it they were to learn more, and bring back more, of infinite value to themselves and to their country than they yet knew. So he's expressing more then just movement, physically, from one place to another when he mentions "the greater journey." And as for "infinite value to themselves and to their country", i guess that cues Susan Fenimore Cooper..........
Musil's book says "if mostly forgotten now, SFC was as influential in her time as Rachael Carson in ours"..."America's first popular nature writer was....hailed by critics and common folks alike. SFC , the devoted dgt of JFC, published Rural Hours in 1850. It was an immediate success and preceded Walden Pond by 4 yrs........it went through 4 decades of popular publication and revision, in the U.S. and overseas....Cooper drew on her knowledge of languages along with her early sophisticated education and residence in Paris and London."
In Morse's "The Gallery of the Louvre" ....."in the corner, along with JFC......we see 20 yr old Susan busily painting copies of the assembled gems. The widower Morse had been giving painting lessons to S and there was always speculation about their relationship."
A sample of Rural Hours from U of Penn's digital library
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/cooper/hours/hours.html
And a picture of Susan they she might have regretted having taken......such a sad persona
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Susan_Fenimore_Cooper.jpg
Jean
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Good picture of Pont Neuf, Barb.
Like Barb, I don’t think my family had yet arrived in this country from Norway. So this discussion is prompting me to make some inquiries from other family members. The grandparents were from a split generation – some born here, some not.
Yes, I think I would have wanted to go, but only if with someone else, another family member or friend. I was a music nerd as a kid and would have wanted to go to the theatres and concerts that Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote home about.
Several years ago, at the National Book Festival, McCullough told us that the 18th Century was his favorite. But that was before the Greater Journey. I wonder if he still feels that way, after seeing these very creative and learned Americans in Europe and then following their exploits at home.
From The Reader’s Book of Days for July 14: (only because it’s about Parisians.)
1831: The governor of New York, hosting the French visitors Alexis de Tocqueville and Gustave de Beaumont, ran into his house for a gun after sighting a squirrel, but “the big man” in Beaumont’s words, “had the clumsiness to miss him four times in succession.”
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No, I would never have gone; have always been afraid of deep water and seeing huge masses of the sea breaking over the deck and the ship rising and falling in the water would have put me in such a terrifying stupor I might never have recovered.
Once when I was young and single I went to Maine by train and slept in the top bunk of a Pullman. That cured me of tight places, getting undressed and dressed in an ungodly position. For a while upon waking I could not find my clothes and I got rather frantic until with great relief I discovered them in a net bag hanging behind my head.
I would imagine McC chose these particular people because he could find appropriate material from which he could write, don't you? Or perhaps because he wanted a diverse group. It might become more clear as we read on.
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Charles Sumner wrote the following in his journal which expresses what so many felt, McC states:
".......I go for purposes of education and to gratify longings that prey upon my mind and time....The temptations of Europe I have been warned against.....I can only pray that I may be able to pass through them in safety."
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Yes, I would have gone and my parents would have paid for me to go. My mother never got to travel much; but she always wanted to & would have come up with the money somehow to send me. She paid for me to spend 6 weeks in summer school (college) in Pueblo, Mexico. That was really an experience!
I only managed to get to Paris once and then only for a week. I always wanted to go back.
Sally
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I probably wouldn't have gone. I crossed the Atlantic on an ocean liner (the Queen Mary) in the sixties, and found the eight days on board ship hard.
And I wasn't even seasick -- almost the only passenger on board who wasn't. McCullough plays down seasickness, but for those afflicted, months at sea must have been terrible. I remember the story of Cicero (I think it was). He knew the emperor has ordered him killed, and was escaping by boat. he would have gotten away, but he ordered his men to land, saying that he would rather die than have one more day of seasickness.
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Although McCullough includes so many plates in his book these are just too wonderful...Paris 1830
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Notre-Dame%2C_l%27%C3%89v%C3%AAch%C3%A9_et_le_clo%C3%AEtre%2C_1830.jpg/640px-Notre-Dame%2C_l%27%C3%89v%C3%AAch%C3%A9_et_le_clo%C3%AEtre%2C_1830.jpg)
Wide-eyed young Americans were dazzled by the Place de L'Etoile in 1830.
(http://superpupsays.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345161d669e201539053a465970b-pi)
View of the Market at Les Halles, c. 1828 by Guiseppe Canella
(http://www.artchive.com/web_gallery/reproductions//107501-108000/107803/size1.jpg)
Procesión de Corpus Christi en Paris 1830
(http://www.germinansgerminabit.org/gestosliturgicos/corpus%20paris.jpg)
Lithography by Victor Adam, from the series "Fêtes des environs de Paris". 1830
(http://www.antique-prints.de/shop/Media/Shop/5089.jpg)
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This is what they are coming from
New York Brooklyn Heights 1830
(http://www.artexpertswebsite.com/pages/artists/artists_a-k/bennett/Bennett_NewYorkFromBrooklynHeights1830.JPG)
Philadelphia soon after the arrival of the Philadelphia & Columbia Railroad in 1830,
this picture of Lancaster shows the Globe Hotel with its advertisement for the Pioneer Line
(http://cache.matrix.msu.edu/expa/large/1-2-5B1-25-ExplorePAHistory-a0b9q5-a_349.jpg)
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Love the pictures Barb. Thank you
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Yes, thanks for the photos, Barb. I'm not sure if those reading on e-readers get to see the many photographs included in the hardback copy of this book. (do you?) I'm wondering if it is now in paperback, since it was published in 2011. And if in paperback, are those photos included?
I was particularly interested in the photographs of Paris in 1830 - like this one -
(http://www.antique-prints.de/shop/Media/Shop/5089.jpg)
McCullough writes of the disappointment felt by the Americans - the conditions they encountered were not what they had expected. (Although they found things were not the same in all of the "arrondisements." (Do you understand how Paris is/was laid out?)
How familiar are you with the many names McCullough mentions in the opening chapter? Not too many women coming aboard, Sally. I can't understand how women manuevered around those streets with their long skirts and pretty boots as described in 1830. Would your mother have let you come alone, Sally - had she known more about where you were going? A few women made the trip -though. Emma Willard for one. Had you heard of her before? The school for young ladies that she founded is still flourishing in upstate New York. She wasn't a young woman herself when she braved the ocean to get to Paris. I think she was nearly fifty - an outlier. Most of the people we are meeting are young men, sons of those who were wealthy enough to finance their sons in Paris.
Jean, I enjoyed reading Susan Fenimore Cooper's descriptive essays; journal entries and her biographical link you provided yesterday. James Fenimore Cooper's situation was unusual too...bringing his whole family to Paris! How did he manage to write, "do Paris" and have a family life all at the same time? I'm reading his Last of the Mohicans online - it's been so many years since I saw the film on TV. Never read the Leatherstocking Tales as Barbara did - what have you NOT read, Barb? :D I vaguely remember seeing the film version in 15 minute segments in seriel form back in the fifties. Does anyone remember that? I can still hear Cora and Alice screaming as they were carried off by the Indians.
ps - so many good points posted here yesterday - hopefully we'll get back to them - in a roundabout way. McCullough was all over the map of Paris in the opening chapters - which explains why we are too! :D
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Never wanted to talk about ol' James since there is/was a member who absolutely hated James Fenimore Cooper - not sure if it was just the Leatherstocking tales or everything the man wrote - so I thought the better part of valor was to not referred to him - but yes in around the 7th grade I thought those tales were wonderful, full of adventure and excitement almost as good as the sea stories that I loved to read. Remember dong a book report and spent so much time on sketching as a cover Chingachgook that I was so proud of and it did not count towards my grade, in fact it was subtracted because the assignment did not ask me to put my essay in a cover - feeling wounded I just retreated into my books more than ever - ah so...
McCullough is sure helping us round out the nineteenth century - the only things I remember knowing about was - the Texas War for Independence - Dolly Madison saving paintings from the White House during the War of 1812 - the Civil War - the land/Indian wars - gold rush - and laying track connecting the nation by rail - oh yes, and Mark Twain - all US events - if we read about the clashes in Europe they were in passing and not drilled into our frame of reference.
Many of these folks McCullough includes I had heard of but did not learn of them in History class - many because of new inventions remembered more from the jokes when something did not go as planned we blamed so and so who invented the item or system. Silly stretches of the imagination like not getting the message to an aunt or grandmother on the next street quickly because we stopped to play and so the tease about are tardy delivery was we should have sent it with Samuel Morse
What I found fascinating looking at the street art from Paris versus the US is the Paris scenes feature people, usually lots of them where as the US scenes seem to be more about long distance transportation.
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Judging by your posts, this promises to be a very interesting journey. Yes, like JoanP says, we're all over the map on this one...but then, so is the author. Is he feeling his way around? We should enjoy finding out what this book is all about. Perhaps it will be something different for all of us.
My attention was caught by something in Pedln's post:
'Several years ago, at the National Book Festival, McCullough told us that the 18th Century was his favorite. But that was before the Greater Journey.'
That excited the brain cells in my head and I started to make my own case for that view. Until I was brought up short by the question: whose century? French or American? Is this book about Paris? Or what? Is it history? Or just story? Is it about art? Science? Biography?
There's just a great little book I would like to recommend. I read it years ago. By the de Goncourt brothers, Edmond and Jules, cited off and on in this book.
French XVIII Century Painters
The book soon has one falling in love with that century.
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Thanks for those lovely pictures, JOANP AND BARB. One can understand the wonder the Americans felt on seeing the cathedral at Rouen when you remember how young America was at the time and as seen in the photograph above. "The inexpressible magic, the "sublimity" of it as Emma Willard wrote in her journal.
McCullough must have had access to that journal, I'll have to read his notes to find out how he got it and how pleased he must have been.
But they were so disappointed when they first arriveed in Paris, dirty, noisy, ugly. But that breakfast that Nathaniel Willis had in his hotel sounds delightful, 30 dishes from which to choose! (pg.27)
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Never wanted to talk about ol' James since there is/was a member who absolutely hated James Fenimore Cooper - not sure if it was just the Leatherstocking tales or everything the man wrote - so I thought the better part of valor was to not refer to him - but yes in around the 7th grade I thought those tales were wonderful, full of adventure and excitement almost as good as the sea stories that I loved to read. Remember dong a book report and spent so much time on sketching as a cover Chingachgook that I was so proud of and it did not count towards my grade, in fact it was subtracted because the assignment did not ask me to put my essay in a cover - feeling wounded I just retreated into my books more than ever - ah so...
McCullough is sure helping us round out the nineteenth century - the only things I remember knowing about was - the Texas War for Independence - Dolly Madison saving paintings from the White House during the War of 1812 - the Civil War - the land/Indian wars - gold rush - and laying track connecting the nation by rail - oh yes, and Mark Twain - all US events - if we read about the clashes in Europe they were in passing and not drilled into our frame of reference.
Many of these folks McCullough includes I had heard of but did not learn of them in History class - many because of new inventions remembered more from the jokes when something did not go as planned we blamed so and so who invented the item or system. Silly stretches of the imagination like not getting the message to an aunt or grandmother on the next street quickly because we stopped to play and so the tease about our tardy delivery was we should have sent it with Samuel Morse
What I found fascinating looking at the street art from Paris versus the US is the Paris scenes feature people, usually lots of them where as the US scenes seem to be more about long distance transportation.
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"Is this book about Paris? Or what? Is it history? Or just story?"
Isn't that a super question, Jonathan!... Has a similar question occurred to the rest of you?
I'd say it's more than a story...in other words, it's more than FICTION, right? It all really happened - it is a History then. BUT it's more than a book about Paris. We hardly hear of the the political upheavals at the time - the Americans in Paris did not take part or even take sides, it appears. They are too busy enjoying the marvels of Paris, and learning.
"The French Revolution of 1830 was as if Mary Poppins came to town and said spit spot so that in 3 days they got rid of the king and his government."
This may be as it appeared to the Americans, Barb - but for the thousands of Parisians who lost their lives during those three days...
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It must have been confusing for the Americans' arrival in Paris - they found a "medieval city" as Ella described, filthy, noisy and foul-smelling. These were wealthy Americans - it didn't take them long to discover the palaces, glorious parks and the accomodations Nathaniel Willis described. These extremes within the same city demonstrates the disparity between the rich and the poor in the years following the Revolution.
I'm going back to reread the breakfast menu at the Hotel des Etrangers, Ella - before deciding where to stay - there or the Hotel de l'Europe where Emma Willard took up lodging - right across from Galignani's English bookstore.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Hotel_des_Etranger_2010.jpg/450px-Hotel_des_Etranger_2010.jpg)
Willis' Hotel des Etrangers still stands today. I'm not sure if Galignani's is still there.
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Yes hundreds died I think the number is about 800 and 3000 actually participated - according to accounts the militia was 20,000 strong and then the army was added during the night of the first day of battle which was another 40,000 - the one song from Les Mis about Empty Tables is searing in the film - I did not come away with as strong an emotional reaction having seen the play several times but the movie brought out things in that musical version that the stage is not as intimate and therefore did not get to the depth of feelings.
Then two years later Cholera that had been ravaging Europe hits Paris - eventually the epidemic makes it to the US - I wonder if there is a grave location for the dead of the 1830 revolution or a mass grave for the Cholera deaths.
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I've only read the first two chapters, but McC does title his book AMERICANS IN PARIS and certainly he did not intend to tell the history of the revolution taking place; undoubtedly that would require another book.
The pictures are so lovely, the gardens at the Palais Royal - are all the surrounding buildings part of the palace?
Perhaps it is my poor perspective of buildings but when I saw Parliament in London and buildings such as this Palace Royal and compare those to our own Congressional Building and the White House where sits those who govern one of the largest countries in the world I think we are still a very new country.
SMILE - "Good Americans when they die go to Paris."
Anyone?
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Had we known of these people before reading?........
I knew of almost all of them except Sanderson, Appleton and Willis, and, oh yes, the two N Eng medical students, Jackson and Warren. Sanderson is my favorite at this point. I love his sense of humor....."If any lady of your village has a disobedient husband, or a son who has beaten his mother, bid her send him to sea" lol.
"....watching the parade of fashionable women on the wide path of the Garden (S) said, ' i never venture in here without saying that part of the Lord's Prayer about temptation....'"
OMG, bodies caught in the net in the Seine laid out in the morgue, Sanderson noted "You can stop in on your way (just to see the bodies) as you go to the flower market, which is just opposite." I think DMc enjoyed reading S's letters too. I think i would have liked to have been in S's classroom.
"The French dine to gratify, we appease the appetite....We demolish dinner, they eat it."
I have been envious of the scenes of Europeans leisurely walking, eating, drinking. We seem to be in a much bigger hurry here, why di you think that is?
I have heard so often about the "light" in Paris and in Provence, can any of you describe it?
I have always had ambiguous feelings about the building of these magnificent cathedrals and palaces in Europe. I think of their grandeur and their beauty, and then i think of the money that was spent, sometimes for decades and centuries, taken from the citizens, that could have been put to more "practical" purposes. I guess that is forever the Liberal's dilemma.
Jean
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For the Americans encountering Paris can be likened to Science Fiction stories of discovery and anthropological journals' descriptions of alternate societies. Paris was an entirely different world. Interesting how many were young with little personal experience except that of growing up. Back home, Frontierland, there were itinerant painters traveling from town to town painting portraits. No galleries, museums, ateliers. Much that I know about this period is of the common men/women. Did they have music beyond informal gatherings for dancing? Was art limited to the samplers and quilts created by necessity and not for aesthetics? Were there the hours available to simply create? Wasn't America a largely rural society? Effete city life had little in common with the sturdy practicality needed for survival on the frontier.
McC might be writing a travel book for armchair explorers.
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Oh my Heavens! I have some catching up to do. How did July 14th slip up and away on me? I just ended my week vacation on Monday, and just try to imagine Monday morning 5:45 a.m. my alarm wakes me to be ready for the first day care child, then from that time until 5:45 p.m. I dealt with the heating and air conditioning guy fixing a clog in my unit causing water in my laundry room, the plumber here to demolish my upstairs bathroom using a sledgehammer to destroy my 30+ yr old cast iron tub, 8 daycare children keeping them in the family room in the basement or outside in the play area so the sound would not hurt their ears, and then lunch, naps and pick up. Phew....guess I know why I totally forgot the day of our book had arrived. So, while I have been the last one to depart the ship, I am finally ready to begin our Paris tour of this book with all of you. Hopefully it will be less hectic for me.
I'll begin reading the first chapters and try to catch up ASAP.
mrssherlock, You asked how I liked reading books on my iPad. I love it! I was just talking to my granddaughter who is a sophomore in college, this morning (she and I share our books and discuss new ones) about how nothing is as good as holding a real hard bound book in your hand, but for the online book club I find the iPad is great for highlighting, notations, finding my bookmarks quickly for something I wanted to comment on, and I especially love being able to copy, cut and paste for our discussion posts. I have a nookcolor tablet also, but the iPad is so much better as far as I am concerned. If you get one you will not regret it. My six grandkids keep me up to speed on the newest technology. Imagine that after I taught technology/computer classes in a K-8 Catholic school for 15 yrs., before owning my in home daycare.
Okay off I go to explore Paris......... Ciao for now~
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'Oh my heavens!.'
Thank heavens you're on the way, Bellamarie. Here's the travelling you have always wanted to do. Why wait for the next life, in Paris, that good Americans are counting on. Who, by the way, said:
Good Americans, when they die, go to Paris.
LOL. Good for you, Jackie. How wonderful to leave that Puritan heritage behind.
'I can feel their wonder and joie de vivre. America must have been cheerless, we never have outgrown our Puritan heritage.'
Except for the sorely tempted Sanderson from Philadelphia.
Don't miss Rouen cathedral on your way to Paris. It's true. Unbelievable sums of money and years of effort went into the building of all those magnificent structeres. I can understand your ambiguous feelings, Jean, But when you compare it with the trillions spent on armaments in the last century...with nothing to show for it. So there they are. Where we can still go to worship, make confession, or admire the glorious art.
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Jonathan: I tried to get the book you mentioned on kindle, but they don't have it.
Surely there was the same difference between the rich and poor areas of the city in Boston as in Paris. But the rich are good at arranging their lives so they never see the poor. So being brought through those areas may have been new to the young well-to-do Americans.
I'm thinking this period may have been a restless one in America, with many leaving for the frontier. Perhaps this restlessness affected these young men too, but given their education, they went for intellectual frontiers. In an age where we all have available to us art, music, great architecture, etc. through books and electronically at least, I was surprised (although I shouldn't have been) at how little access these men had had in America.
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Did you get the impression that the young Americans came to Paris, not with the intention of becoming a better artist, scientist, doctor - but rather to learn - to see the world, to fill in the gaps in their own education - if they discovered any?
I've been trying to find the words to answer Jean's question about the light in Paris we hear so much about. Can you describe it? It's difficult, isn't it? Not the night lights of Paris - that's easy. But how to describe the daytime light that sends artists scurrying outside with easels and paints?
My vocabulary fails me. Soft? ....Sweet, reflective from the sparkling river? It's something that almost brings you to tears because you know you'll miss it when you leave. Can someone do a better job describing this light to Jean?
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I didn't see that in Paris, since it was raining, but I still remember it from Florence! I can't describe it, but I'll never forget it.
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I've been thinking of your question about poverty in Boston in the 1830's, JoanK. While there was poverty in Boston, there were workhouses, for example, I wonder if there was such a striking contrast between the haves and have-nots as in Paris following the overthrow of the Monarchy?
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What a great interview link provided to us Thank you so much for it. I watched part 1 & 2 and I really like David McCullough, he seems like a man I would enjoy sitting down with and listening to all his knowledge he could share from all his researching for his nine books. He seemed to favor this quote opening his book:
"For we constantly deal with practical problems, with moulders, contractors, derricks, stonemen, trucks, rubbish, plasterers, and what-not-else, all the while trying to soar into the blue."
__Augustus Saint-Gaudens
I also found this interesting, "They came from Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Ohio, North Carolina, Louisiana, nearly all of the twenty-four states that then constituted their country. With few expectations, they were well educated and reasonably well off, or their parents were."[/b]
In McCullough's interview, (paraphrasing) he said, the foreigners were allowed to study for free, all they had to do was provide their own room and board.
It seems these were an elite class of people who were able to take advantage of a free education in Paris. America benefited from this because they came back and shared their knowledge, talents, professions, etc. with Americans. Like McCullough said in his interview, (paraphrasing) we would be surprised how much of America is what it is, because of these and other Americans going to Paris. Not just our art, music, medicine, but also our culture.
JoanP. I have no knowledge of the lights you speak of since I have never had the privilege to visit Paris, but I do remember in our last book, I Always Loved You, it spoke of how the artists flocked to paint in that light during the day.
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Good thought Jonathan, cathedrals and palaces are mch better than armaments and destruction.
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Recalling the Cassatt/Degas Paris, what a contrast. Fifty years of Americans experiencing Paris and we find women artists whose talent was openly displayed, not maiden aunts who played with brushes and water colors.
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Book on the way from Amazon! Have to get busy reading -- trying to read about five books at the same time.
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Kidsal, Bellamarie - WELCOME to the discussion! You should have no trouble catching up. As you can see, we have many enthusiastic observations on McCullough's two opening chapters. Others have mentioned that he seems "all over the map" - some are overwhelmed by the number of names, some familiar, some not. DON'T Be! The advice from those who have read both chapters - and into the next. RELAX! McCullough knows what he's about and the cast of characters will narrow down as we go forward.
We have been considering two of the questions from those in the heading:
Which of the many names are you familiar with in these opening chapters? How do you think he selected them for his focus?
Were you familiar with these names? John Sanderson, Emma Willard, Charles Sumner? Where does Nathaniel Willis fit in? Do you anything about this man David McCullough is quoting so frequently?
Jean knew all of them, except for Charles Sumner. What I like is the fact that NONE of these characters are fictional! They all lived and wrote at this time. Ella suggested early on that McCullough chose these characters because they left written records - diaries, journals, news articles, etc. I'll bet that's right - we are getting to know them through the sources DM has unearthed.
Let's focus on these four characters before moving on. Surely we will hear from them or about them in upcoming chapters. What do we know about each of them so far: John Sanderson, Emma Willard, Charles Sumner, Mathaniel Willis.
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JoanK you say:
"Surely there was the same difference between the rich and poor areas of the city in Boston as in Paris. But the rich are good at arranging their lives so they never see the poor. So being brought through those areas may have been new to the young well-to-do Americans."
And then JoanP says: "I've been thinking of your question about poverty in Boston in the 1830's, JoanK. While there was poverty in Boston, there were workhouses, for example, I wonder if there was such a striking contrast between the haves and have-nots as in Paris following the overthrow of the Monarchy?"
So far I was most struck by the American's surprise/disgust at seeing/smelling the squalid conditions in Paris and hearing the clamour of the city. I am guessing, as JoanK says, that the more wealthy, educated Americans who went to Paris had not spent much time in the poorer areas of American cities. I've watched past seasons of a BBC America series called "Copper" which is set in the 5-Points district of New York City in the 1860s. Also Martin Scorsese's film "Gangs of New York" is set there. "Over the decades the neighborhood changed. It was extremely bad in the 1830’s and ‘40’s until Protestant religious sects made inroads to clean up the area in the 1850’s. By 1860 Five Points was a little less violent, but still a slum. Abraham Lincoln visited the area in 1860 and reluctantly gave a speech to some school children. He as well as Charles Dickens, who visited the area in 1842, were appalled at the abject poverty and terrible living conditions. Conditions improved only to crumble again in the 1880’s with the influx of Italian and Chinese immigrants. By 1897 the area houses had been demolished and the district took on a whole new look." See some illustrations at http://www.urbanography.com/5_points/
Perhaps most places in the 1830s in America were more spread out and less populated than Paris. Also, I'm sure it was the shock of expectations versus reality that got to most of the visitors to Paris.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about. When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes." Goodreads review
"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14 |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1)
Some Topics for Discussion
July 14-20
Part I Chapter 1 ~ The Way Over
1. Why were so many of America's young people heading off to Paris in the 1830's? Would you have gone? Could you have gone?
2. How familiar are you with the many names McCullough mentions in the opening chapter? Which ones? How do you think he selected them for his focus?
3. Are you beginning to understand McCullough's choice for the book's title? How would you have survived the sea journey described here?
4. First stop - Rouen! Have you ever entered Paris from Le Havre - through Rouen? Can you imagine the impression the ancient cathedral made on the visitors from the New World?
Chapter 2. Voilà Paris!
1. Americans were struck by how little Parisians knew about America. How much did they know about Paris when they sailed?
2. Do you remember how many Americans were in Paris in 1830? Will they have an impact on the city? What was the political climate in Paris when they arrived? Was it safe for the newly-arrived Americans?
3. Do you sense that McCullough has narrowed his cast of characters at the end of this chapter? Were you familiar with these names? John Sanderson, Emma Willard, Charles Sumner? Where does Nathaniel Willis fit in? Do you anything about this man David McCullough is quoting so frequently?
4. Have you read any of the works of James Fenimore Cooper, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry W. Longfellow? How long ago? How about Victor Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame?
5. The conviction of the French: "the Arts are indispensable to the enjoyment and meaning of life." In what ways did the Americans find their own country deficient?
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marci (marciei@aol.com )
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I'm thinking right on Marcie when you said - "I'm sure it was the shock of expectations versus reality that got to most of the visitors to Paris." the other thought is in the cities of America during this time in history the poor were mostly immigrants bringing what then knew to a part of the world without the same resources and like most first generation immigrants the were not completely Americanized probably speaking mostly in their native language and so I can see how few moneyed folks would have any reason to be in those areas for any reason - they probably had help who took the horses to be shod and the laundress came to you for pickup and delivery and so the basic needs that would be the work of the poor was out of sight. But more as you say I agree I think their perception of Paris was fantasy just as immigrants were expecting an easier time of it in this country that was described as having 'streets paved with gold'.
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Following up on what Marcie said about the populations of Paris and Boston..."Perhaps most places in the 1830s in America were more spread out and less populated than Paris."
a quick internet check -
Paris is and has been one of the most densely populated cities in the world -
Population of Paris in 1831 (city proper) 785,862
Population of Boston in 1830 61,392
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Holy Hannah that is not double or triple but almost 13 times more folks - that is like a house built for 2 is holding 25 people - I wonder now what the density was - the land size - but regardless that is a huge number of people and so I can imagine just going to the market would have been an overwhelming experience dealing with crowds versus a few shoppers.
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JoanP.,
Ella suggested early on that McCullough chose these characters because they left written records - diaries, journals, news articles, etc.
I recall McCullough saying in his interview, he chose these particular people because of their different careers in life. He wanted to show the diversity of people who went to Paris to learn in their fields, and how they brought what they learned back to America and used it to better America. He mentions everyone of them returned to America, except Mary Cassatt.
I am a bit younger than some in this book club, and because of my upbringing, being rural, small town and poor, I did not have the opportunity to access books to read while growing up. The only books in my home were the Bible and any school text books we were allowed to keep at the end of our school year. We had no transportation to visit our one library in my small town, so I think this is why I became a writer as a young girl, I created stories, plays and poems to share with my siblings and then we acted them out. So I have to say I have never heard of any of these people McCullough mentions in the first chapter, other than of course Morse and Edison so far. McCullough also said even though he mentions quite a few people, he does zero in on just a few as the chapters progress. He seems to favor Augustus Saint-Gaudens, he mentions because of his great sculptures, and our very own Mary Cassatt. So yes, I think the field of people will thin out soon.
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The Americans were so surprised and vexed to arrive and have their passports, luggage and personal effects pored over and fined, even letters. I was surprised at that also. And they had to pick up their passports at a police office later. What a nuisance.
When one mentioned that in America no one carried passports, the frenchman wondered about personal security of the people.
A drivers license, with picture, seems sufficient today as identification for most of us, is that correct, or could that just be in Ohio? I'm not sure if that is federal law that one must carry a picture I.D.
If a person does not drive you can get a picture I.D. somewhere, I haven't reached that age yet, but soon, soon............
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I'm reading this book now, won't really have time to contribute to the discussion much. I am finding it very interesting. I am familiar with several of the people mentioned in the first two chapters.
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Ella, that is interesting you should mention how a picture i.d. is sufficient here in Ohio, and how the frenchman wondered about personal security of the American people, because they carried no passports.
I was just hearing on the news yesterday how the illegals who are crossing our borders are coming with no proof of identification whatsoever, and are being put on commercial airlines and flown to cities all over the U.S. I was thinking when I heard this how unsafe it is for our country to not really know who these people actually are, and what their purpose in coming here is. Not all are children, and there is concern for terrorists, drug cartel and human traffickers coming in. Does seem a bit scarey, when there is no identification and proof of it.
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There's no law that says you have to carry a picture ID, but it's getting very hard to do without one, you have to show it so many places now. I don't know anything you need a passport for unless you are traveling.
I hadn't heard of Sanderson, Sumner, Willard, or Willis. It's pretty clear why Nathaniel Willis and John Sanderson are in--amount of material. They both wrote regular letters back to the New York Mirror, and Sanderson wrote a book, Sketches of Paris: In Familiar Letters to His Friends; by an American Gentleman in Paris, which was widely read on both sides of the ocean.
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Pick up your passport at the police station.
Paris police have always been very keen on knowing who's in town and keeping track of their whereabouts. They obviously had their own homeland security problem. Life in the big city.
I remember my first visit to New York City many years ago and being struck by the contrast of rich and poor. The Bowery and Fifth Avenue. The Lower East Side and Park Avenue. Watch this, said my companion, my cigarette butt will never reach the ground. And gave it a flick. Sure enough, several hands came out of nowwhere and fought over it. Try London. Mumbai. Rio. It's the same the whole world over.
McCullough has found a most interesting group of people to get to know. I'm finally going to read a book I have had on my shelf for many years.Saint-Gaudens and the Gilded Era, by Louise Hall Thamp. Interesting to read about his 'practical problems.'
I had never heard of Emma Willard and her school for women in Troy, NY. I am trying to imagine the new student introducing herself to her new friends: My name is Helen.
Emma Willard described for her students back in Troy the giant equestrian bronze of Henry IV of Navarre, "that most chivalrous, best-headed, and kindest-hearted of all the French kings" which commanded the Pont Neuf's midway point."
Henry IV was assassinated about 1604, soon after beginning his reign. He arrived with a new spirit. I feel certain that today Emma Willard would have made a comparison with Jack Kennedy. I believe there was something of the Camelot image about Henri Quatre.
'Like McCullough said in his interview, (paraphrasing) we would be surprised how much of America is what it is, because of these and other Americans going to Paris. Not just our art, music, medicine, but also our culture.'
That's worth following up. There was considerable cultural and political exchange between France and America in those years, wasn't there? Each was captivated by the other.
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This talk of passports reminds me of our first trip to France - to Paris. Brand new passports...lots of warnings about keeping it close to the body, that there were people who wanted to steal it. So we bought special pouches to carry it around our necks and off we went. Americans in Paris. At least I had some French - unlike those we are reading about in McCullough's book.
We found our hotel with some difficulty - and too much luggage (It was our first trip. You have to learn to pack, don't you?) As we checked in, the clerk at the desk requested our passports. Told us they had to register every tourist from out of the country with the police. He assured us we'd have our passports back in the morning. Which we did. But it was an uneasy night until the day clerk came back in the morning.
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PatH- I'm going to classify John Sandwrson and Nathaniel Willis in my mind as writers, though I' m not sure to what extent their articles and books were contributing to financing their adventure in Paris. Do you get the impression that either one of these two were independently wealthy young men - or financed by their families?
What are we told of Charles Sumner?
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You’re right, PatH, about it being harder to get around without some sanctioned I.D. I find using a credit card physically easier than digging in the purse for cash. Here at home, no problem, but while shopping with my granddaughter, on a recent trip to Seattle, I had to bring out my driver’s license every time I charged something.
I just finished watching the Brian Lamb/McC interview – finally found that it offered captions. If you have not yet seen it, don’t miss it.
JoanP asked us why McCullough picked the people to follow that he did. Ella said she thought because they had left writings. I’m sure that’s no doubt a partial reason, but I also think he picked some of these people because they were closest to his heart. They were the writers, the artists, the teachers, the soon-to-be doctors, the people who made history come alive for him. Some were people with fascinating stories, that we might not know about – people like Charles Sumner and Elihu Washburn. The latter’s story (he was one of ten children, all of whom distinguished themselves) reminds me of my grandparents, whose families had immigrated to a small Wisconsin town. They had no higher education, but they saw that all of their seven children received it. My mother had never seen a library until she went to state teachers college.
I like the idea of focusing on a few people at a time. I had heard the name Emma Willard (probably thinking about the Willard Hotel in DC) and Charles Sumner (probably thinking about one of his relatives –FDR era government official Sumner Welles).
When did Samuel Morse’s painting of the Louvre come to Washington?
What are we told of Charles Sumner? He had a strong sense of duty. And, he came to LEARN.
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Pedlin, we've been posting at the same time! Both trying to learn more about these names. I really want to know more about Charles Sumner himself.
Some of you have mentioned Augustus Saint-Gaudens. I confess I don't remember McCullough describing this person, but the name is very familiar to me. I did remember the comprehensive index at the back of the book and turned there to see what I missed.
SURPRISE! There are many references to Saint-Gaudens...not sure if they are all the same family: Andrew, Augustus, Bernard, Francois, Homer, Louis and Mary Saint-Gaudens. McCullough devotes many pages to these Saint-Gaudens in later chapters of the book.
Can anyone tell me where the name of Augustus Saint-Gaudens has come up? In the book? In one of the interviews?
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I just found a wonderful resource in the back of the book in which McCullough breaks down the book by chapters with the Sources to which he refers in each. If you have the hardcover, Sources Notes can be found starting page 461.
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'I just found a wonderful resource in the back of the book...'
You're so right, JoanP. It's just a marvellous book, with its source notes, vast bibliography and three sections of photos and reproductions. Here's a lovely portrait with it's caption:
"Author Harriet Beecher Stowe, in Paris in 1853 to escape the fanfare over her novel Uncle Tom's Cabin, felt at once the "dreamland" charm of the city, its people, its architecture and art. At the Louvre, Gericault's vast, dramatic The Raft of the Medusa seemed to "seize and control" her whole being." On the following page opposite to the portrait is The Raft of Medusa painting, showing the victims of an 1816 disaster at sea.
Weren't we lucky to make it across safely!
Where could one find this? In an introductory paragraph to the source notes of Chapter 13, is this:
Americans in Paris, 1860-1900, the illustrated catalogue for a memorable 2006 exhibition...is a superb survey of the works of Cassatt, Sargent, and thirty-five other American artists who studied in Paris.
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I just found a wonderful resource in the back of the book in which McCullough breaks down the book by chapters with the Sources to which he refers in each. If you have the hardcover, Sources Notes can be found starting page 461.
JoanP
Also on the KIndle -- just go to the page number.
JoanP, McC quotes A. Saint-Gaudens on the page just before the table of contents. Also, picture on p. 208. I'm not sure when he first arrived, but he left when Paris was invaded.
The PC is great for locating info in an indexed Kindle book. Just search on the name and every appearance comes up in chronological order. Just click away.
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speaking of IDs a passport is accepted everywhere.
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In 1970 my husband (who was a treasury agent) was assigned to sky marshall detail. He flew all over the world as a sky marshall. One of the most memorable flights was to Paris. The pilot called him up to the cockpit to see Paris as they were flying in. It was night and my husband said it was one of the most beautiful sights he had ever seen. Oh, how I envied him those trips!!
Sally
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Wow! I can't imagine how beautiful that must have been.
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SALLY, a sky marshall? Did he ever arrest anyone? Who hired him and how did they choose which airlines for him to fly? Are there still sky marshalls flying around on airplanes?
I am going to follow Charles Sumner through the book if McC continues with his itinerary in Paris. I like Sumner's observation about black people and he continues to fight for liberty of slaves in America. Here is his career at home:
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=charles+sumner
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At that time the government was just organizing the sky marshall program. They chose a number of federal law enforcement agent to fill in until they could set up the program & train agents. He flew for 6 weeks and flew on planes heading for Germany, England, France and Israel. He really had some experiences! He and I were both glad when he was finally back home.
Sally
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That was a dream job, wasn't it Sally? I can imagine your envy as your husband tried to describe what he saw each time he returned "from work." ;) I've never flown into Paris at night...but even by day it is breathtaking. Flew into (out of?) Nice once - in sunlight. Just beautiful - those terra cotta roof tiles, the blue sky!
Our 19th c. Americans in Paris never had that opportunity either - but they did experience the sunlight. In Chapter Two we hear how the changing light in Paris impressed them...how different the buildings looked at different times of the day - in the rain, in the sunlight. McCullough writes how "in the full sunshine, even in winter the bridges and palaces would glow with such golden warmth, it was as if they were lit from within."
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Jonathan, there apparently is a catalog for the book you want -- Americans in Paris 1860 -1900. I guess we're a little late to see the Met's exhibit although the catalog is available -- for a price.
Americans in Paris (http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ampa/hd_ampa.htm)
From today’s newspaper sampling – a WSJ book review of The Other Americans in Paris by Nancy Green. When the name Thomas Evans appeared I had to rush to McCullough’s index. He’s there. There's only a slight overlap between the two books, as Green's reads 1880 - 1941.
Other Americans in Paris (http://online.wsj.com/articles/book-review-the-other-americans-in-paris-by-nancy-l-green-1405034240)
Ms. Green informs us that the American who achieved the most fame in 19th-century Paris was not an author or an artist but Napoleon III's dentist, Thomas W. Evans, formerly of Philadelphia. Evans's influence over the emperor was so great that he reportedly dissuaded him from intervening in the American Civil War—on the side of the South. When Napoleon III was captured during the Franco-Prussian war, bringing an end to the Second Empire in 1870, it was Evans who spirited the Empress Eugénie out of the country to England.
Last night while reading about John Sanderson extolling Paris night life and entertainment and bemoaning America’s deficiencies in that area I began to wonder who were our culture stars then? Who was “flourishing” in entertainment and culture in the US during the 1830’s 1840’s?
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That would be worth investigating, Pedln - who were Amreica's culture stars in the 1830's and 40's. Do you think there were many? Those in the link you have provided...Hemingway, Fitzgerald etc..came much later - in the 1920's.
In Chapter 2 in McCullough's book, we read how "squeamish" the French considered the Americans. The whole idea of nude statues, nude models...they found offensive. I'm seeing how their appreciation of French artists, and entertainers must have changed things back home as the Americans' eyes were open to what was going on overseas.
The conviction of the French: "the Arts are indispensable to the enjoyment and meaning of life."
It really was a whole different approach to life, to art, cuisine, etc. - wasn't it? The whole idea of enjoyment and entertainment was not the American way.
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I like the idea of following Charles Sumner, Ella! Shall we each choose one of these characters to follow? (Even if McCullough doesn't include them in later chapters? Charles Sumner strikes me as a serious young man so far. More so than some of the others we've met so far. Already we see forming a circle of friends with similar background and education.
Do you remember about how many Americans there are in Paris at this time?
I'm interested in Oliver Wendell - Holmes. Mainly because I'm confusing him with his son, Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. I confuse the two. I think I'll tail hims to see if that helps.
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What a thrill to be back in Paris, and seeing it through the eyes of these distinguised artists, writers and scholars. I have no doubt that nighttime Paris from the sky must be spectacular. But the city looks grand from anywhere and in every light:
'From Montmartre one could see the whole broad sweep of the city.' McC
Isn't Paris known as the city of light? James Fenimore Cooper loved Paris in gloomy weather: 'I love to study a place teeming with historical recollections, under this light, leaving the sights of memorable scenes to issue , one by one, out of the gray mass of gloom, as time gives up its facts from the obscurity of ages....
From Montmarte...ah
'The domes sprung up through the mist, like starting balloons; and here and there the meandering stream threw back a gleam of silvery light. Enormous roofs denoted the sites of the palaces, churches, or theaters. The summits of columns, the crosses of the minor churches, and the pyramid of the pavilion-tops, seemed struggling to rear their heads from out of the plain edifices. A better idea of the vastness of the principal structures was obtained here in one hour than could be got from the streets in a twelve-month.'
But did you notice? Parisians could now (1830) also see their city from the air. Ballooning had arrived.
Abigail Adams is mentioned (p56) in connection with the Hospital for Foundlings, of such huge concern for Emma Willard. What I did want to tell you about is the fantastic mansion the Adams lived in during their stay in Paris, actually the village of Auteuil on the edge of the Bois de Bologne. McC wrote about John Adams. Diane Jacobs has written a great book about Abigail and her sisters, just out. The mansion can be seen on page 184.
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Thanks for the info on the catalogue. I'm going to find it.
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Looking for entertainment in 1830's America!! Did you notice? 'Home Sweet Home' was composed in Paris, by an American. Wasn't America still stuck in its Puritan shell, when it's cultural heroes would have been the preachers and the travelling evangelists?
I'm still laughing. I have a cousin in Germany who came to visit a few years ago. She talked about the serious need for missionay work to be done in France!!
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I like the description of Sumner's later life. I especially liked this:
"In 1856, a South Carolina Congressman, Preston Brooks, nearly killed Sumner on the Senate floor two days after Sumner delivered an intensely anti-slavery speech called "The Crime against Kansas". In the speech, Sumner characterized the attacker's cousin, South Carolina Senator Andrew Butler, as a pimp for slavery." Wikipedia.
I had heard that there was such an incident, but didn't connect it to our Sumner.
Jonathan: are you going to volunteer to be a missionary in France? Your occupation might curtail your activities a bit.
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I've read the next two chapters and, therefore, I wonder if it is a mistake to attempt to follow one particular person in the book. McC writes about occupations rather than personages; fascinting chapters, we'll enjoying discussing them.
Off the subject, but lately I have heard the term "exceptionalism" bandied about in regards to America. I dislike that attitude immensely; it's arrogance. Is that attitude responsible for our interference in other nation's problems believing we can solve them, believing that democracy is the only way to govern.
These young educated Americans who went to the old world to study had the right idea at the time; perhaps we need a bit of that today.
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JoanP.
Some of you have mentioned Augustus Saint-Gaudens. I confess I don't remember McCullough describing this person, but the name is very familiar to me.
In the interview from the link provided, go back and listen to how much McCullough likes Augustus Saint-Gaudens. If I remember correctly he said if he would choose one or two of the people in The Greater Journey to write a book about one would be, Augustus Saint-Gaudens.
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Joan, I laughed when you asked who were the cultural stars of the 1830s in America. Think ELMER GANTRY! We were in the middle of the Second Great Awakening. Americans were not only being politically independent, but religiously independent also. Many new denominations were sweeping the country - those singing Methodists, and those dunking Baptists, etc and revival meetings were the entertainment of the night and day! Evangelicals rained down wherever preachers could set up a tent! And hundreds of people showed up - no tv, no radio, few books, no movies, no internet, what the heck would you do in the evening to add some excitement to your life!?!
And if you were teenagers or young adults what a great place to meet others of your age who you might never have otherwise met? You know with no electrical audio system, most people couldn't hear what the preachers were saying if there were more then 50 people there, so you might as well converse with someone in the crowd! :D
http://www.ushistory.org/us/22c.asp
Have any of you ever been to an outside revival meeting? Fun! Lots of fun!
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We haven't met Saint-Gaudens yet in the book, but if you've looked at all the pictures you've met his statues.
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The connection between the democracy movement and the evangelical movement is why you may have way back in the recesses of your brain a remembrance of the term The Second Grt Awakening from your high school U.S. History course.
This is long, but if you are interested, it is a very good essay of Evangelicalism as a great social movement in American history.
http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo/nevansoc.htm
I am descended from a long line of Calvinist Presbyterians, but was raised in the Methodist Church - my mother just left the fold and married one of those dastardly Methodists who also smoked and drank a bit and played cards!!! That explains why i am an agnostic today! ;D ;D
Notice what is listed as "Arts and Culture" in this index from the 1830s......mass media and the railroad!
http://www.artandpopularculture.com/1830s
This is a more comprehensive site and more of what Joan had in mind with her question, i'm sure. From a historian's point of view, of course, this is the Jacksonian Period.
http://kclibrary.lonestar.edu/19thcentury1830.htm
Jean
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Jean, I am really struck by the difference between American and French taste in entertainment - it seems to me the French "joi du vivre" is what attracted the American visitors in Paris - this joy they will take home in time. The Americans were much more conventional -
as your sites describe it "eighteenth-century Americans lived their lives within hierarchically ordered institutions." The Transcendentism allowed little room for sensory enjoyment.
Will Americans ever fully believe as the French do - "the Arts are indispensable to the enjoyment and meaning of life"?
I'd like to read something James F Cooper wrote before he left for France - and then afterwards to see how much of an impression exposure to Paris made on his conventional stories. McCullough describes the frequent attendance to French Theater - Moliere, Corneille, Racine... and the Paris Opera, ballet. The Americans knew nothing like this at home...John Sanderson wrote how deficient is our country in these elegant accomplishments..." (Can anyone help me? - I've already forgotten who John Sanderson was...
Do you think we in America are still deficient in our knowledge of French literature and art? McCullough mentions Victor Hugo, Balzac, George Sand, and Baudelaire - Delacroix in painting or Chopin and Liszt in music.”
Have we all read Victor Hugo's "Hunchback of Notre Dame" - in English?
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Thanks for the links, Jean. No wonder our travellers loved Paris. There sure wasn't much going on here in art, music, and theatre.
And hundreds of people showed up - no tv, no radio, few books, no movies, no internet, what the heck would you do in the evening to add some excitement to your life!?!
. As one of the articles mentioned, if 50 people attended you could't hear the preacher anyway, but you might meet someone.
JOanP, I have the same problem with the Oliver Wendell Holmes family. Dad -- doctor, went to Paris, son -- law? I think I have it straight now.
Samuel Morse is the one who was puzzling me at first, as I'd never heard of him as a painter, and kept wondering "is this the inventor of the telegraph." I'm glad to know they are one and the same, and I'm looking forward to learning more about him. In the interview, McC raved about him and his Lourve painting. And he spoke at length about the friendship between him and J F Cooper, could have written a book about it.
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Pedln - which Holmes wrote Autocrat at the Breakfast Table? Senior? Which was the Holmes who served as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States?
Found this - Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. (March 8, 1841 – March 6, 1935) was an American jurist who served as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States from 1902 to 1932, and as Acting Chief Justice of the United States January–February 1930. We've got that straight.
"I've read the next two chapters and, therefore, I wonder if it is a mistake to attempt to follow one particular person in the book. McC writes about occupations rather than personages..." Ella
Ella, you've got a point. Since the next two chapters are a continuation of Part I in which we are learning more about the individuals who sailed for Paris at this time - and the courses they pursued - painting and medicine, let's continue to follow our guys, the journalists, the artists, the medicals. It will be interesting to see where McCullough takes us when we reach the Chapter in Part II. I have a feeling he will move on in time - to introduce us to individuals who came to Paris after the first wave we are meeting now.
We're meeting familiar names and learning about their professions. It doesn't get better than that! We'll be starting Chapters 3 and 4 in Part I tomorrow. You're leading us, Ella! ;)!
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Oh I wouldn't be so hard on the American taste or rather lack of for the Arts - the French had how many hundreds of years to develop their infrastructure and culture - granted not as anything we can imagine today but for the times they were an advanced society with enough security for some to take a minute and observe the beauty around them, reproduce it with patronage from at first royalty and the clergy later a wealthy and growing business class till finally all but the poor were affected by the concept of enjoying fun and beauty.
To me in America we were still trying to carve out from the wilderness communities and thank goodness, because today we have a thriving art community with both coasts a rival for any European art community. I think to applaud these early citizens of America who had arrived at a secure place to become curious and want more so they went to the area of the world where that education was available. Seems to me this is a time when the Brits were still filtering in their education to the arts - wasn't this the time when a well brought up Brit was expected to do his time in Italy for the same reason that the Americans chose Paris.
What is new information to me is that medicine was a feature of France - I had heard it was Germany and early doctors in the States had to know German to get on in medicine so this connection to France as being the hub is new and I want to learn more about it and when the switch, if there was one between France and Germany in the study of medicine.
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Sanderson was a Philadelphia school teacher and for some reason, i don't know if DMc said it, but my impression is he's about 50 yrs of age.
Added - yes on pg 10 Mc say he's "a teacher in his fifties known at home ..... For his literary bent."
Jean
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about. When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes." Goodreads review
"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14 |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1); Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre (http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/)
Some Topics for Discussion
July 21 - 27
Part I ~ Chapter 3 ~ Morse at the Louvre
1. Willis said in a crowd he could always recognize an American. Why and how, do you think?
2. As Americans abroad, they felt that their behavior was even more important, as reflecting on their country. Do you agree?.
3. "The nose is too short - the eye too small'. Have you ever dealt with a kibitzer like Cooper was to Morse? How did you handle it?
4. If you were painting a painting like Morse's and could chose any paintings in the world, what would you chose?
5. What do you think of the type of painting Morse did? Was it valuable? Is such a painting still valuable?
6. Can you imagine a scene like that at the Louvre in an American gallery? How does the Louvre differ from a modern American art gallery?
Part I ~ Chapter 4. The Medicals
1. Does the condition of medical education at the time shock you? How much useful knowledge do you think the doctors actually had to impart to their students?
2. What does the difference between attitudes toward examination of female students and dissection of corpses say about the two societies?
3. Do you think surgeons ever still operate with the aim of performing the operation, rather than saving the patient? Are there still doctors who treat their patients with distain?
4. What instances do we see where exposure to a new culture caused major shifts in the world view of one of our characters? Is that what travel does? Can you find such instances in your own life?
5. What does this chapter say about the interplay between scientific and artistic thinking? Which do DM portray more vividly: the artists or the scientist/medicals?
6. The political changes in France don't seem to have affected our characters' lives at all. How much do you suppose this generation was affected by the revolutionary ideas of the generation before?
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marci (marciei@aol.com )
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hahaha I can hardly stop laughing - rummaging through a drawer of old recipe books I found this gem from before the Civil War reprinted in a recipe book from an insurance company in 1910 - oh lordy haha - How to cook a Groundhog - :D :D - No wonder they were enamored with the food served in Paris.
Take one skinned groundhog entrails removed - well I would hope so -
OH my, then it says, whatever you do do NOT throw away the skin - the finest banjos use a Ground Hog hide for the drum of the banjo.
Try to get a young or middle age hog. Your old groundhog will be tough - well that is really requiring an eye for the measure of a ground hog while hunting don't you think -
Cut it up and remove the "strong Bone" which is under the front armpits. - OK -
For old groundhogs, soak in strong salt water for about one hour, and with one teaspoon of vinegar added. I guess some hunters do not have it down getting an old groundhog from a young or middle aged one so all is not lost -
Rinse in fresh water, Boil for 13 to 20 minutes in water with 1 teaspoon baking soda added. - Boil, oh my, this sounds like cooking shoe leather
Rinse and boil for 10 minutes more - well when the old song about 'boil that cabbage down' they sure knew about boiling food - no taste left but then, what taste I wonder would a groundhog offer.
For a young groundhog eliminate the "baking Soda Step" - Now, take your flour and cornmeal of equal proportions along with salt and pepper and mix together on paper, add the groundhog, gather in the ends and shake it good so the ingredients even up on it. Then fry it at low speed and prick it with a fork. When the fork penetrates easily, put it on a higher fire and brown. Dash on a little meat sauce. Serve with cornbread and vegetables. - meat sauce could be either Worcestershire or A1, both were available in America by the 1830s
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Just what I was wishing for -- an interactive of Morse's Gallery of the Louvre. Scroll down
Gallery of the Louvre (http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/)
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What riches today! I'll do the interactive tour later. Now I'm stuck on Jean's catalog of culture.
I couldn't resist "the Bee in the Tar Barrel." Turns out to be a political bee -- buzzing around. I know a few of those: the issues and names have changed, but the buzzing is the same:
http://www.readme.it/libri/Letteratura%20Americana/The%20bee%20in%20the%20tar-barrel.shtml
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I'll be leading the next section, not Ella. Since I may be late in tomorrow, I'm welcoming you to it now. The questions will be up.
Having been an American living abroad, I'm interested in how much some of the experiences of our young Americans were similar to mine in a very different country and century. Has anyone else lived abroad?
And of course, I want to follow my not-even-kissing cousin Morse, as he paints his painting AND gets the idea for the telegraph. So much for the famous split between Art and Science. We see both in these chapters, and I wonder which comes through more strongly, Which is more interesting: the artists, the medicals, or the struggle to decide whether medicine is a science or an art?
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I can't even imagine starting a project like Morse's Gallery of the Louvre, i didn't realize that he was not just recreating one gallery, but picked out pictures to include in "his gallery."
On the next page, picture #13, do you suppose that is a wig of curls that Emma Willard is wearing?
I won't tell you the story about the time my mother cooked a ground hog my brother brought home from hunting them on my uncle's farm. That was about 1950. I don 't know what "recipe" she used, but it sure stunk when she was cooking it. I'm not sure i even tasted it. :o
Jean
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Pedlin, I never knew that Morse was a painter, either. It is interesting how many artist were also inventors. I guess the creative gene takes many forms. I couldn't help wondering how Morse managed his 6 x 9 foot painting in the Louvre. Did the artists have to carry their works back & forth or did they just leave them there? Even if the canvas was rolled up, it would be hard to manage & what kept the paint from getting smeared?
Sally
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Goodness notice the Mona Lisa right there at the bottom with no fan fair like today
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Jean and Barb, you point out very well that we were emerging from carving out a livelihood in a new country, killing off the natives to get them out of our way >:(, fighting our way to independence, etc., and though we had paid attention to cultural and artistic matters almost from the start, it was still taking a while to get up to speed.
Now we see these Americans, hit in the face with a full-blown artistic scene, just drinking it in. Charles Sumner, who knows nothing about music, goes to see Don Giovanni, and is carried away by it's "singular power". "He had never heard anything like it, never known such feelings as swept over him". That was a good place for him to start; it's a very powerful opera, full of wonderful themes, with a story line playing on all sorts of emotions, and hugely dramatic. I wonder how he knew what was going on (it's in Italian) but it would be impressive even with just a summary.
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I have just started Chapter 1. Very interesting. What a lot of talented, some multi-talented, people, a few of whom I'd heard a little about but want to read more. Charles Sumner was really a handsome hunk! Was surprised to learn that Morse was a portrait painter. How on earth did Emma Willard manage to arrange all those curls, or maybe it was a wig?
I had to stop reading temporarily. The letters describing their sea voyages was making me seasick! It really took nerve to make a voyage like that. Too bad they didn't have our seasick medicine.
I would have thought they'd have preferred England since they knew the language. But I guess France was the place to go to learn art, medicine, etc. I'm going to have to read about France to see why they became such leaders in learning and the arts. I visited Paris for a short while some time ago, but preferred southern France
Marj
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Duh! As a reader of science fiction I am familiar some how some SF writers describe the process of establishing a colony. Some writers have sent colonists back to Terra/the earth and relate vividly culture shock. Seems obvious to me now that science fiction is not far removed from the study of history.
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I wondered about not going to England, too. DM casually mentions some of them spending a short time learning French, like it was something you could pick up in a few weeks. The medicals would really have to learn fast to be able to understand the lectured they were attending. Even if they had studied French in America, I'll bet they hadn't learned the specialized medical and anatomical terms they needed.
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I had the same experience Willis had: after living abroad for awhile, I could spot another American a mile away in a crowd, but had no idea how I knew. What do you think it was?
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Isn't this fun! McCullough has us questioning the veracity of story he tells! What a great question! How did the American "Medicals" learn enough French to attend lectures in which a grasp of highly specialized vocabulary would be required? Maybe it would have been easier in England - absent the language barrier -BUT maybe the English students were also in Paris to learn of the new techniques the French had discovered from the readily available corpses used in autopsies.
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I have never had the privilege to visit Paris, it is on my bucket list, but I can say I told my hubby this morning, that if ever we manage to get there I feel like from reading this book, I just may feel familiar to the places and sites we would be seeing.
I especially love the atmosphere and attitude the Americans describe in their letters they write back to their American relatives.
"For many who frequented the garden, whether to walk or to linger comfortably on a shaded bench or hired chair, the children were the favorite part of the show, all happily laughing and running about, all amazingly (to the Americans) chattering away in French, while watched over by immaculate, full-skirted Swiss maids. "I have been there repeatedly since I have been in Paris, and have seen nothing like the children." Nathaniel Willis reported to his readers in the New York Mirror. "They move my heart always, more than anything under heaven." It was enough to make one forget Napoleon and his wars.
But then Paris was a continuing lesson in the enjoyment to be found in such simple, unhurried occupations as a walk in a garden or watching children at play or just sitting observing the human cavalcade. One learned to take time to savor life, much as one too time to savor a good meal or glass of wine. The French called it "l'entente de la vie," the harmony of life.
Do you suppose this is the same attitude today as back in the 1930's? We Americans are so rushed it makes me wonder if we are missing so much of the little things in life to just enjoy, like the little children at play.
Ciao for now~
p.s. I am a bit behind in my reading. There truly is so many names introduced I can barely keep up with who is who....
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Don't worry too much about the names, Bella...if you read through the beginning posts, you will realize what we are all beginning to see. McCullough is narrowing the list of names...as the Americans are forming their own circles of friends. Our posters have been helping one another with the names too! Read through the posts! Should make catching up easier for you!
I thought it was interesting to learn that J Fenimore Cooper and Sam Morse (JoanK's cousin a few times removed) were fast friends for 7 years previous to their arrival in Paris. They had met at the White House! Their circle will expand in these chapters...
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Just spotted another American in our midst! Welcome, Marjifay! Will watch for your comments once you recover from the sea journey - and can answer your own question - why not study in England - no language barrier. Makes you wonder if Americans were also choosing to study abroad in England at this same time, doesn't it? Do you think there may still be hard feelings between England and America?
I reread Nathaniel Willis's description of Americans he was able to spot:
Americans did not resemble the French dandies, fresht from their hairdressers...whitest gloves. More and Copper - kind
Morse and Cooper left different impressions on him...Morse's open face - kind and sincere...Cooper, a "cameleon face" - difficult to read - an expression of moodiness and reserve."
My own experience when a student in France - when spotting other Americans...hmm. Obviously the struggle with the language, otherwise an air of independence....
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Morse put so much into the Gallery of the Louvre, yet it did not bring the success he had hoped it would. One wonders why.
3. "The nose is too short - the eye too small'. Have you ever dealt with a kibitzer like Cooper was to Morse?
No. I think Cooper was just trying to be funny, kidding. I don’t think he really meant what he said.
More about the painting from National Public Radio. JoanP and PatH – did either of you get to see the exhibition of this back in 2011-2012 – at the National Gallery?
Best of the Louvre (http://www.npr.org/2011/07/03/137472386/the-best-of-the-louvre-on-a-single-canvas)
He had hoped that this painting was going to make his career but also to get him out of debt. And he was going to put it on exhibit and charge an admission fee. Well, it didn't work. The crowds did not come. And then he sold it for much, much less than he ever anticipated. But years later, in the 1980s, that painting sold for over $3 million, which was the largest sum ever paid - until then - the largest sum ever paid for an American work of art.
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Pedln, JoanK was already on the west coast in 2011. I saw it, but didn't linger.
A medical student who could afford to go abroad would definitely go to Paris if he felt he could handle the language--it was the best. You recall that in Wives and Daughters, which takes place close to the same time, the English medical students went there too if they could. (Edinburgh, where Molly's father studied, was considered the next best place.) I don't think the technical vocabulary would add that much to the already formidable burden of quickly picking up a working knowledge of French. Everyone probably used a lot of Latin terms, and scientific vocabularies tend to be somewhat recognizable in different languages.
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The only unpleasant peope he meets in Paris are Englishmen. That's an indication of the feeling Americans had about England. For many years back then America and France had a common enemy - England. But they had so much else in common then, primarily the revolutionary spirit. Liberty, equality, independence, fraternity Of course there was still much of the aristocracy left in France, but they didn't make it into the pictures that Morse copied. Also left out were the French Churchmen, Catholics, of course. Morse's anti-Catholic feelings were so very strong, also a reflection of the feelings of many of his fellow countrymen
What an irony to take us from the Louvre, Morse's Louvre, to the Hotel Dieu, the largest of the hospitals, with 'its 1,400 beds, served more than 15,000 patients a year, and as in all Paris Hospitals, patients were treated free of charge.' I suspect they were all run by Catholic organizations. Served by sisters of mercy.
I'm not so sure about acquiring a medical education in foreign lands. These students may well have brought back knowledge of diseases unknown at home. And that may have been worse than useless. Ask any pharmaceutical salesman. Every country has special needs.
Stay away from those hospitals, Marj, if you're feeling sick. Just making the rounds and looking over the surgeon's shoulder cured me of wanting any further medical knowledge.
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DM has a way of painting scenes for us, doesn't he? Morse, up on his scaffold with Cooper kibitzing and crowds gawking. Those "rounds" at the hospital with dozens of students crawling over each other and over the patient to see. Can you imagine being the patient? If I wasn't dead, I would have high-tailed it out of there as fast as I could go.
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"As Americans abroad, they felt that their behavior was even more important, as reflecting on their country."
I had trouble with this living abroad. Occasionally, I would see an American acting rudely, and feel embarrassed. Then I would think "why am I embarrassed -- I'm not responsible for their actions? There are rude people in all countries."
There is an unfortunate tendency people have when we meet a person from another culture: to think "Oh, that's what they are like" instead of "that's what THIS PERSON is like." Especially if it's something negative. I also had to deal with a lot of negative stereotypes of Americans when abroad.
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Good thought JoanK. How often we take on the responsibilities of others behaviors and stress ourselves beyond need.
Jean
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It was quite a show - Morris on his scaffold and Cooper coaching from below. Personally, I can't imagine why Morris decided to take on such a huge project other than he thought he might tour America with his painting, charge admission and at the same time teach Americans the great masterpieces of the French.
Nathaniel Willis believed he could spot Americans in a crowd because they had the "bearing of a man unused to looking up to anyone as his superior." In other words, an independent spirit. Rudeness? Perhaps it could be judged so by the French - even today - but we walk unafraid of soldiers and guards. Our constitution guranteed freedoms unheard of in the old world.
However, all the Americans abroad revered Lafayette and moreover Jefferson, Franklin and Adams had lived in Paris for a time and no doubt influenced these young men.
"Consumption" was tuberculosis and as a child I remember it was still dreaded in America among older people. In my city,there was a T.B. sanitarium and I had an aunt who allegedly died at an early age from the disease.
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I've never read THE LAST OF THE MOHICIANS, what am i missing? And it was a movie also I believe. America must have been so beautiful without being plastered all over with paved roads and cities and tall buildings. Still, I am grateful I live in today's world, particularly when I read the chapter on the "medicals.'
Cooper particularly was welcomed by Parisians and liked; his books were well received in Paris, he and his wife were wined and dined by French society and he enjoyed the popularity; although he privately called many of the French "simpletons."
Both Cooper and Morse took their roles as American gentlemen abrod and felt their deportment was a reflection on their country. Wouldn't you have liked to have met either of them or both, or listened in when they were havig a musical?
I was surprised that Benjamin West was encountered by Morse. If I remember correctly West figured largely in McC's ADAMS book.
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My favorites were the Deerslayer and the Pioneer - Even as a kid, I always thought the Last of the Mohicans too melodramatic for me.
Have never been to the Hospital in Paris however, the Hospices de Beaune, now a museum where kindness to all was dispensed, regardless of station in life, along with XV century medicine which at a glance seemed to depend a great deal on giant size paintings of various Saints and Jesus for healing - I have to imagine that three hundred plus years later there were leaps forward in scientific knowledge although, reading elsewhere, cures included many many opieds - the side affect being, patients at least died in mindless oblivion to their pain.
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I tried reading "Mohicans" as a child and couldn't get into it. Maybe I'll try "Deerslayer"
I didn't remember West from the Adams book. What role did he play inn Adams' life?
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Correcdion: (Thanks JoanK) It was Benjamin Rush who figured in Adams book.
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and on the light hearted side here is a delightful list of 17 food reasons the French are better at life.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/french-cuisine-food-better_n_5605956.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/french-cuisine-food-better_n_5605956.html)
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I remember The Last of the Mohicans from the card game, Authors, we played as youngsters. Never read it though. Watched the very good 1992 movie of it with Daniel Day-Lewis.
Amazon sent me a recommendation for a new book, HOW PARIS BECAME PARIS; THE INVENTION OF THE MODERN CITY by Joan DeJean, which looks interesting. My library has it (307 pp) so I''ve added it to my bloated TBR list.
Marj
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That's the trouble with this book club, Marj. Your TBR pile continues to grow! I've put aside Last of the Mohicans too - and turned to Fenimore Cooper's The Deerslayer. I'm also thinking that I need to add Victor Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame to my list too.
In these last chapters of Part I, McCullough considers the education of American students in the fields of ART and MEDICINE. He seems to be considering Medicine as an art, doesn't he?
ART - I've been puzzling over the "copyist tradition" as a means of learning to become an artist. This seems to have been the accepted way to learn to paint. Is it today? I don't think I'd like to learn to express myself in art by copying what someone else had done already.
McCullough tells us that Samuel Morse was the first American to copy the masterpieces in the Louvre. It's astonishing that he was able to mimic the great masters! It is astonishing to copy even one artist as flawlessly as he did...but imagine all of the different styles that he was able to master! I find it unbelievable! But there's the proof! Not only the amount of concentration this required - but consider the position - up on the scaffolding...with so many people watching him! That alone would break my concentration!
This was from an article on the requirements of the artist who wishes to copy in the Louvre.
"You are allowed to bring your own small sketchbook and draw to your hearts content. If you wish to paint one the masterpieces, you must apply for a copyist permit. The Louvre will supply the easel, and your seat. You supply the canvas, oil paint, determination, talent and concentration. Just think of the concentration required. If you've ever painted in front a small group of people, imagine painting in front of several thousand museum visitors.
There are a few stipulations about your painting, your canvas cannot be the same size as the original work of art and you are not allowed to copy the original artist's signature."
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McCullough tells us that the Americans were surprised by the number of female French artists who were copying at this time. This was something unheard of in the US in the 1830's at the time Morse was admitted as a copyist. I can't find anything that tells when American women began copying at the Louvre. Those of us who read of Mary Cassatt and Edgar Degas last month saw Mary learning to paint by copying at the Louvre between 1866 and 1870. Was she one of the first, do you suppose?
"Mary Cassatt visited the Louvre in Paris, the most famous art museum in the world, to study and copy the masters. Renoir, Henri Matisse, Degas and countless other artists were copyists at the Louvre. Examining the brushwork, composition, color and lost and found edges of paintings by master painters is part of the copyist tradition.
She studied art at the Pennsylvania Academy in Philadelphia in 1861 to 1865, which was among the few such schools open to female students. In 1866 Mary Cassatt began European travels, finally living in Paris, France. In France, she took art lessons and spent her time studying and copying the paintings at the Louvre.
A quick peek into the Index tells us that McCullough has researched Mary Cassatt in later pages. We might find out when women began coming to France to copy the masters.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Brooklyn_Museum_-_Art-Students_and_Copyists_in_the_Louvre_Gallery,_Paris_-_Winslow_Homer_-_overall.jpg)
Winslow Homer's The Copyists in the Louvre Gallery (1890)
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Thank you, Barb. That one's a keeper. A few weeks ago I was "lunching" in the revolving Space Needle Restaurant, with a meal even the French might have approved. The ambience called for a glass of wine, but hey, it was lunchtime. Next time I'll think French.
Amazon sent me a recommendation for a new book, HOW PARIS BECAME PARIS; THE INVENTION OF THE MODERN CITY by Joan DeJean, which looks interesting.
That does sound interesting, Marj. My small town here is trying to develop "neighborhod groups," making me wonder how Paris developed its "arrondissements."
I've never read any by JF Cooper. Will consider opinions here and try one of his other novels than Last of the Mohicans.
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Barb, it's a good thing I'd already eaten lunch when I looked at your link, or I would have had to rush off for food. It sure brings back a lot of good memories.
I went through a James Fenimore Cooper stage at one point, maybe at about 12, and read a number of his books, but I could never get through The Last of the Mohicans. The books have all vanished from memory without a trace now, so I can't answer the question of whether Paris changed his writing style.
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I'm trying to finish reading your posts when what I really want is to go get some of that yummy food to eat. Unfortunately, nothing in my fridge is that good!
When Pat and I were setting up housekeeping, French food was popular, and we cooked it and ate in French restaurants. Now there is one French restaurant in the town where I live, and it doesn't have handicap access. Boo hoo! And my caretaker who does the cooking never heard of French food.
But PatH is the French cook in the family! She learned on Julia Child's cookbook.
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My, oh my, those wonderful croissants Monsieur, the propieter at Hotel Jean Bart used to get for us each morning from up the street. It got where we would be watching for him from our window with the hungriest feeling I have ever known. That's thirty years ago.
It's interesting to read of the many Americans who went to Paris to study medicine. But who needs a doctor if you can get yourself off to Paris to recover your health by just being there.
And then there were the painters. What a busy scene at the Louvre with all those copyists. What a magnificent work Morse did with his Gallery.
Marj, the Joan DeJean book looks very interesting, and it gets many raves at Amazon. Quoting just one, it says the book, 'illustrates how Pont Neuf changed the entire urban experience, commerce and society.'
There are several things about it in a Paris guide I still have in the house. Laurence Sterne, writing in A Sentimental Journey (1765): 'Of all the bridges which ever were built, the whole who have passed over the Pont Neuf must own, that it is the noblest - the finest - the grandest - the lightest - the longest - the broadest that ever conjoined land and land together upon the face of the terraqueous globe.'
It had a purpose, My guide also has a quote from John Russell's Paris, (1960)
'The Pont Neuf was not just a beautiful bridge; it was fairground, department store, employment exchange, picture gallery and poor man's Harley Street. You could have a tooth out, go through the 'Situations Vacant', watch the tight-rope dancers, buy a Lancret or a Fragonard, join the army, pick up the new Marivaux or a first edition of Manon Lescaut, and arrange to go up in a balloon, watch a bullfight, take fencing lessons and attend a surgical demonstration.'
How did Renoir get all that vile commercial activity off the bridge and people it with all that elegance for the cover of our book?
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A balloon took of from the bridge? Hope the bridge wasn't wood.
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The cheese! The sauces! The bread! The desserts! Don't you wonder how the French manage to remain so chic and slender with diets like this? How do they manage? Is there a secret?
I chose to visit one of the restaurants DMcCullough described here - Le Grand Vefour - with "a menu the size of a newspaper." I wonder if he ever splurged to eat here. Reading the reviews, I see a man commenting that dinner for two came to $750. - and that it would have been more if his wife drank wine!
Imagine being presented with a menu the size of a newspaper - in French! Overwhelming for these Americans who are just learning French! I think I'd make a copy of the menu and spend some time with my Larouse dictionary before venturing in - Here's a menu of specials for today (http://www.grand-vefour.com/lacarte.html)...
(https://cbks3.google.com/cbk?output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv&thumb=2&thumbfov=92&panoid=H_e7JnelzxT9rqaSEt41Tw&thumbpegman=1&yaw=98.856839266420408&w=300&h=118) (http://www.relaischateaux.com/RelaisChateaux/img/newadherent/vefour/h467/6-003.jpg)
Napoleon ate here - Victor Hugo - Jean Paul Sartre... I think I'm going to propose Victor Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame for next month. Unless everyone has read it. It's a classic, not to be missed - and reflects Paris in the early 19th century.
I wonder how many Americans ventured into Grand Vefour in the 19th century.
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Isn't it just wonderful - I have read how many a French single or couple will save all year to have one meal at a 4 star restaurant - for them it is like going to the theater is for us and seeing the photos of Le Grand Vefour it is easy to realize a diner is playing a part as well as, enjoying the performance and savoring the time that would be several hours plus, the prep before they left the house. Better than attending a concert where all you do is sit and listen where as, this experience involves all your senses; taste, touch, sound, sight, smell.
A couple of years ago I read one of these cute chic books and in it the author, a women, goes home to visit after a couple of years living a busy typical American style business life in Paris - her father is astounded, her mother almost outraged - she was chubby and not in a healthy way - she had been eating American - on the go, sandwiches, hamburgers, fries - dashing out, not savoring her food or in her mother's opinion, herself. She was promptly put back on a French diet of morning jam on croissants however, ruminating about the fruit that made the jam and detecting the flavors - no sandwiches on the run but a decent meal with time to de-stress - a light le quatre heures - and a dinner with several courses carefully and lovingly served, each course small as compared to our huge plates of food.
From this and several other books I read at the time it was apparent we eat more bread and starches later in the day - we eat at least two of our meals, if we even have breakfast, on the run, quick as if we were farm hands having to fill our body with calories. The other is in so many areas of the world they fix their own food, the food is less likely to be purchased prepared with all the additives in our store bought food, it is more likely to be daily purchased fresh, grown locally. Soon after, it is now a year and a half I decided no more prepared food, frozen dinners, nothing except what I prepare fresh. Grapes for snacks, all sorts of fruit deserts with sugar, but real sugar and even heavy cream and yes, cheese. I will purchase things like mayo and katsup. I only eat bread in the morning and within 4 months I lost 20 pounds not doing another thing.
It is difficult to make a ceremony during mealtime but that too I read how even street vendors in France, close down their cart and sit behind it eating a lovely meal spread out on a make shift table that for many of us we would consider as a dinner.
I think we still have a work ethic that drives us so that we do not smell the roses of living.
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Wow! A bill for $750.00 and NO wine! Incredible is all I can say. Le Grand Vefour, looks like a wonderful place to dine, but a bit rich for my taste.
Can anyone tell me if the 'The Pont Neuf bridge is where all the couples go to place their locks with their names on it? I saw it on the Kardashians, and my good friend who just toured Paris and his wife showed me a picture where they placed their lock.
Ooops found the answer to my own question. No it is not the Pont Neuf it is indeed two different bridges for lovers to place their locks. http://www.bonjourparis.com/story/paris-love-locks-love-that-wont-die/
Paris Love Locks: A Love That Won't Die
By Erica Hewins
If you thought romance was passé in Paris, all you have to do is look at Paris bridges to see it is being displayed in full force.
The Paris “love locks” are back.
The love padlocks have been a phenomenon in cities as varied as Belgium to Japan.
For those of you who haven’t heard of them, here's the story. A couple writes their names on a padlock and locks it onto one of the bridges. They then throw the key into the Seine River as a symbol of their undying love.
As BonjourParis reported last year, the locks on the Pont des Arts near the Louvre were cut off, reportedly by the government. But romance beats politics in Paris and the locks can now be seen on two Paris bridges:
Ciao for now~
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about. When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes." Goodreads review
"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14 |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1); Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre (http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/)
Some Topics for Discussion
July 21 - 27
Part I ~ Chapter 3 ~ Morse at the Louvre
1. Willis said in a crowd he could always recognize an American. Why and how, do you think?
2. As Americans abroad, they felt that their behavior was even more important, as reflecting on their country. Do you agree?.
3. "The nose is too short - the eye too small'. Have you ever dealt with a kibitzer like Cooper was to Morse? How did you handle it?
4. If you were painting a painting like Morse's and could chose any paintings in the world, what would you chose?
5. What do you think of the type of painting Morse did? Was it valuable? Is such a painting still valuable?
6. Can you imagine a scene like that at the Louvre in an American gallery? How does the Louvre differ from a modern American art gallery?
Part I ~ Chapter 4. The Medicals
1. Does the condition of medical education at the time shock you? How much useful knowledge do you think the doctors actually had to impart to their students?
2. What does the difference between attitudes toward examination of female students and dissection of corpses say about the two societies?
3. Do you think surgeons ever still operate with the aim of performing the operation, rather than saving the patient? Are there still doctors who treat their patients with distain?
4. What instances do we see where exposure to a new culture caused major shifts in the world view of one of our characters? Is that what travel does? Can you find such instances in your own life?
5. What does this chapter say about the interplay between scientific and artistic thinking? Which do DM portray more vividly: the artists or the scientist/medicals?
6. The political changes in France don't seem to have affected our characters' lives at all. How much do you suppose this generation was affected by the revolutionary ideas of the generation before?
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marci (marciei@aol.com )
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Yes, it seems that the attitude toward the food is as important as the food itself. I'm sure if I ate slowly and savored each bite, I would enjoy my food twice as much, and lose weight.
And change a lot of my food choices, too. When you really taste your food, you realize some of it isn't so great.
Except for the one description of a restaurant, DM doesn't tell us much about our friends' reaction to the food. It must have been quite different from what they were used to!
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Europeans do much more walking than we do in the U.S. When my sisters & I were in Paris & trying to decide whether to take the metro or other forms of transportation, we were always told that wherever we wanted to go was only a 15 min walk. 45 minutes later & we still weren't at our destination. After the third experience like that we decided that either they walked extremely fast, or 15 minutes just meant within walking distance to the French. We quit asking how far anything was!
We decided that we were going to eat at one really fine restaurant. It was really quite an experience. We had 4 waiters and several courses & wine with each course. We had a wide array of cutlery. We knew what most of it was, but there was one spoon we couldn't figure out. It was between the size of a tsp & a tbs and had a v shaped notch cut in the side of the spoon. I decided that rather than leave there not knowing what it was for; so I would simply ask one of the waiters. It was a spoon for pouring sauce on the entree. Interesting! Dining there was one of the highlights of our trip & worth the money. I just considered it my souvenir of Paris!
Sally
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The chapter on medicine in Paris was fascinating to read, although parts of it horrifying also. But one can understand why young men wanting to become doctors would go to Paris where they could get an education in medicine; whereas in America at the time most doctors never attended a medical school but learned by apprenticehip.
The largest and the oldest hospital, five stories high, was the Hotel Dieu where patients were treated free of charge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B4tel-Dieu_de_Paris
Two advantages in medical education in Paris were (1) physicians could examine women as well as men, not so in America, and (2) the supply of cadavers for study. In America there were many laws prohibiting dissection of bodies.
"Modern scientific medicine" had its rise in France in the early days of this century said one of the founders of Johns Hopkins Medical School; and many of those who had trained in Paris later taught in American medical schools - thus we probably benefited greatly from these early pioneers in medicine who went to Paris to learn.
Who would ever hae thought it??
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In reading over the article in Wikipedia I noticed something about "artificial pancreas" - I have never heard of that, has any one? Does that mean, possibly, if one has cancer of the pancreas it could be removed and an artificial one put in its place?
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Ella, I think it has more to do with the treatment of type 1 diabetes, and seems to be a device that goes further than the insulin pump.
Artificial pancreas (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/16/us/artificial-pancreas-shows-promise-in-diabetes-test.html?_r=0)
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Got it, PEDLIN, thanks! I didn't read carefully enough, teach me a lesson I hope.
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Gee, I know people who qre glued to their smartphones, but that would really do it. ;)
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'Approximately seventy of those who had trained in Paris in the 1830s, or one out of three, later taught in American medical schools, and several ranked among the leading physicians in the nation.' p133
And it wasn't too long before America was the place to go for state of the art medical training or treatment. And it's amazing to read something like this at the bottom of the Artificial Pancreas link:
'Edward R. Damiano, an associate professor of biomechanical engineering at Boston University, has a 15-year-old son with Type 1 diabetes. He said he was determined to get the new device working and approved in time for his son to go off to college carrying one.'
Aren't we rooting for him and all those who's lives will be saved by the rapid development of medical knowledge and technology.
And in the book we read James Jackson's letter home to his doctor father:
'We live indeed in darkness, and it costs more time to discover the falsity of pretended truth than it would perhaps to reach something truly valuable.' p125
The students worked so hard. While those lovers on the bridge, in a bright light, had no thought for a better life and wanted it to go on forever....Oh my gosh, Honey! I just threw the car keys into the river.
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when we were in France in the 60s, it was those days when the exchange rate meant that everything was dirt cheap for Americans. Poor student us ate dinner in three -four star restaurants almost every night. I still remember some of those meals vividly 50 years later.
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Sumner discovers that "negroes" are people like him and it changes his life. What other world-changing discoveries do our friends make? Does travel change our views of the world?
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Sally in the early chapters didn't they say something about how the Americans were astonished at being told something was a few steps away and they walked and walked. I was delighted when i read how, was it Cooper and his friend walked encircling Paris in about 4 hours plus was it another 2 hours to either back to the quarters or to a way of transporting themselves back to their quarters. Now that is seeing Paris. Today the city spreads and spreads like so many of our major cities.
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Ok found this - and yes we are reading about the Paris hospital
Paris (France) and Vienna were the two leading medical centers on the Continent in the era 1750–1914.
In 1770s-1850s Paris became a world center of medical research and teaching. The "Paris School" emphasized that teaching and research should be based in large hospitals and promoted the professionalization of the medical profession and the emphasis on sanitation and public health.
However, what is said about the hospital in Vienna has me curious about how Napoleon affected the study of medicine in Paris.
The First Viennese School of Medicine, 1750–1800, was led by the Dutchman Gerard van Swieten (1700–1772), who aimed to put medicine on new scientific foundations - promoting unprejudiced clinical observation, botanical and chemical research, and introducing simple but powerful remedies. When the Vienna General Hospital opened in 1784, it at once became the world's largest hospital and physicians acquired a facility that gradually developed into the most important research center. Progress ended with the Napoleonic wars and the government shutdown in 1819 of all liberal journals and schools; this caused a general return to traditionalism and eclecticism in medicine.
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That's very interesting, BARB. I don't usually think of politics influencing science, but of course it does.
The walking was true in London, as well, when I visited it. When we asked directions, they would always tell us how to walk, and say it wasn't far.
Even in New York, it seemed that people walked far more than they did in the suburbs where I had lived. Maybe it's a characteristic of large cities, where transportation is a mess that people walk.
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Well, also, in the suburbs, you have to walk a long way to get to anything except more houses.
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The Pont Neuf may not have lover's locks, but it has something better. Under the parapets there are sculptured faces, each one different.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_0196pontneuf.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/PatriciaFHighet/media/IMG_0196pontneuf.jpg.html)
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And the best we can do today is wrap the whole thing - oh well maybe it is acknowledging the great was accomplished and so it is honored by wrapping it as presenting a birthday gift.
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How old is the Pont Neuf? (Sounds like a corny riddle, doesn't it? How old is the New Bridge? :D)
Those faces remind me of all the gargoyles on the magnificent churches you see when walking the streets of Paris. You have to remember to look up or you'll miss them. Or you could stay in a hotel with windows facing directly on them as we did a few times looking onto St. Roch's. I have a story about St. Roch's but it ties in to a later chapter, so will save it till then.
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Does the condition of medical education at the time shock you?
I've been thinking of your question, JoanK, but especially when reading the treatment of diseases - cholera, TB...and wondered about those Americans in Paris. Why did they stay? Did they think they were immune or maybe they thought they'd be one of the lucky ones? Surely they knew of the dangers?
The Cholera epidemic reminds me of the Ebola virus taking its toll in West Africa. No known cure. Will there be one someday? My son's girlfreind had applied for an assignment to Freetown in Sierra Leone. Someone else got that one. That person is living for two years in Sierra Leone...one of the hardest hit ebola sites in Africa. She did get an assignment in Zambia, in South Africa. THere is no ebola there - yet.
Ella told of a mother who died of TB, leaving small children behind. You could have been writing of my mother, Ella. She died from TB at the age of 35 in 1945, leaving the five of us.
Ironic - the following year there was something called penicillin...
I'm really into these Medicals ...though was surprised to find them in Paris learning the art of medicine...
Interesting stuff on the "Paris School" of Medicine, Barb!
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Some of those sculptured faces look familiar PatH. Does anyone know who they are?
It's almost overwhelming -- the irony of James Jackson, Jr -- to have studied so hard and learned so much to bring back to this country, only to have died within a year of his return. I'm glad McCullough wrote so much about him, extolling so many positive things.
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Couldn't find anything, Pedln...except this - for what it's worth-
"The Pont Neuf bridge is also covered with faces…lots of strange faces. They are each unique and individual, and one could spend some time just marveling at them. I have read on the internet that the faces on the Pont Neuf Bridge are there to ward off evil spirits.
Our tour guide on our walking tour in Paris told us that they were friends of Henry IV (who was responsible for building the bridge) in the 16th century - and were put there as a joke after a night of drunken revelry
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Henri IV must have had some peculiar friends, then. The third one from the right in my picture is a faun or satyr--notice the ear and the horn.
My SIL told me that only one of all the faces is a woman.
My Google search says the bridge was started in 1578 and opened in 1603.
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Their Sunday night visits to Trois Frères Provençaux included Onion Soup and this wonder of Cotelettes d'agneau à la provençale
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4585871004_ba40ffed22_m.jpg)
While back home here is the fare listed in a cookbook published in 1832
http://www.foodtimeline.org/1832.html (http://www.foodtimeline.org/1832.html)
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Two observations that hit me reading about Doctoring in the Paris Hospital as compared to medicine in American - two issues that have been with us - Doctors were considered gods - in their demeanor they established themselves as gods as part of a hierarchy where surgeons are still on the top of the totem pole and the average new doctor and nurse much less the average patient is supposed to look up to their crowned glory so their prognosis and directions are followed with few to no question and for a nurse they must follow quickly with few to no questions.
The other, if left to the French maybe women's medicine would not have taken so long to match the needs and physicality of a women. Until very recently all meds and treatment was based on doctors knowledge of a man's body that it was assumed women had the same symptoms, reactions to disease and of course would be helped by the same cures as men. Example how differently women experience a heart attack only became public knowledge in the last 20 years. Looks like all this folklore was established during the early days of modern medicine.
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In the ART section, it was amazing to me that Morse not only copied the original master paintings that he selected (and copied some of them while on a 10-12 foot scaffold!) but then he changed perspective for some (or all) of them as he placed them in his own imagined setting on his canvas, with some along the side of the "room." He was driven and really wanted to make his mark and do something that no American had done before.
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Thanks for pointing that out to me, Marcie. It's quite a feat, especially keeping the ones on the left wall convincing--they're the most squashed. McCulloch suggests Morse used a camera obscura to project images of the paintings on his canvas, but that wouldn't be enough. I'm sure that without the artist's vision and skill, you would just get a mess, and that certainly wouldn't produce the faithfulness to each individual artist's style. It's not cheating to use a camera obscura; lots of good artists did. For example there is some evidence that Vermeer used it.
And we mustn't forget that whenever he used scaffolding, he was also lugging that 6 by 9 foot canvas up it, and propping it securely. Or else he was making sketches on smaller canvases and re-copying.
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Yes, just moving and climbing up and down the scaffold! And sitting or laying on it can't have been comfortable. What stamina he had to paint every single day (was it from 9am to 4 pm?)! McCulloch says there is no evidence that he missed a day.
When he completed the painting in America it seems that the public wasn't as interested in viewing it as he had hoped. But at least he received the critical acclaim he wanted and some other American painters got to see, for the first time, some of the master works of the "Old World." It's interesting to think that there were very few reproductions of the masters and no "art books" so that people who had not visited Europe had no access to the art world of the past.
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BarbStAubrey,
Two observations that hit me reading about Doctoring in the Paris Hospital as compared to medicine in American - two issues that have been with us - Doctors were considered gods - in their demeanor they established themselves as gods as part of a hierarchy where surgeons are still on the top of the totem pole and the average new doctor and nurse much less the average patient is supposed to look up to their crowned glory so their prognosis and directions are followed with few to no question and for a nurse followed quickly with few to no questions.
I have to agree with you on the doctors thinking they were God, and patients would hang on their every word without question. Today, not so much. When I had my hysterectomy ten years ago, I had researched so much prior, that I think I stunned my female and male ob/gyn. I told her how I wanted the incision made, (bikini cut) and I told her how I would do my hormone replacement therapy. She was not very familiar with the natural progesterone cream that could eliminate women from using synthetic estrogen replacement which is carcinogenic. The day the male doctor entered my room after my surgery and told me he had prescribed my estrogen patch I saw his Godlike image deflate when I said, No, that is not the route I have chosen. He tried the almighty, I know best for your care, and I asked if he was even familiar with Dr. John R. Lee's book about how to treat women after this surgery. Of course he hadn't, and I pray he was intelligent enough to learn about other ways. I think I shocked my older sisters and friends at how I was not following the norm of the doctors. We have to debunk that Godlike image, and be proactive in our care. Question, research and speak up! America is so far behind in female medicine and treatments.
I love learning about the faces under the bridge. What a hoot!!!
Ciao for now~
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Good for you, Bellamarie, for making yourself so knowledgable about your own health problems.
I was lucky. My doctor was very honest with me, years ago, when I went to him with a serious health problem. I'm not God. Don't expect any miracles. But I'll swear I owe him the last twenty-five years of my life.
It is interesting to speculate about those heads on the bridge. Some may well have been Henry's friends. My first impression was that most looked a bit hung over. Maybe it's just the things they seen over the years.
It gets interesting with the huge painting on the left in Morse's Louvre Gallery. The one he, himself, is facing while looking over the shoulder of the student copying it. Veronese's Marriage of Cana. Can someone bring it up? An old book on Paris says this about it:
'This picture, by the way, has a double interest....It is full of portraits. The bride at the end of the table is Eleanor of Austria; at her side is King Francis I. (who found his way into many pictures as most men); next to him, in yellow, is Mary of England. The Sultan Suliman I. and the Emperor Charles V. are not absent. The musicians are the artist and his friends - Veronese himself playing the 'cello, Tintoretto the piccolo, Titian the bass viol, and Bassanio the flute. The lady with a toothpick is (alas!) Vittoria Colonna.'
Why alas? Who is Vittoria Colonna? The author of my book, written a hundred years ago, goes on to say:
'A newspaper paragraph lying before me states that the authorities of the Louvre have five hundred unfinished copies on their hands, abandoned by their authors so thoroughly as never to be inquired for again.'
Perhaps, after working diligently for hours, for days, some stranger walks up with his camera, snaps his picture, and is gone.
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Yes, we've come a long way in getting doctors to consult seriously with patients, but we're not there yet, especially we woman.
BARB: I couldn't resist your food site. Had to learn what some of the strange names were. Although this scared me off!
Noyau
Take "Two gallons of gin ....."
Okaaay. Doesn't much matter what else is in it.
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Wouldn't it be funny, if Morse had put some of his own friends into the picture. Would that have been an infringement of someone's rights? Wouldn't that be glorious, to find yourself a wedding guest on that occasion?
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Jonathan: your wish is my command! Here is Veronese "The Wedding Feast at Cana"
http://rannabella.wordpress.com/2012/03/31/the-wedding-feast-at-cana/
Looks to me it has more historical than artistic importance (but what do I know?). Fun, painting a miniature version foreshortened. No wonder Morse took forever.
PAT: I love the pictures on the bridge and the story behind them. Hmm, would being carved on the bridge be considered an honor or an insult?
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This web site has a link to every painting in the Morse, Gallery of the Louvre - just point and click and the painting comes up in a separate window.
http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/
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JoanK., Thank you for the link to the pic. I have always seen "The Wedding Feast at Cana"s" as biblical, since it is one of the miracles Jesus performed, turning the water into wine. As you can see the artist has placed Jesus at the very center of the table, rather than the bride & groom. It's a magnificent painting.
Jonathan, I am glad to hear your doctor was of good sense, and honesty to say he is not God, and don't expect miracles. More so, I am glad he was able to heal you to be here with us some twenty-five years later. :)
Ciao for now~
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Thanks for that link, Barbara. Morse's painting is so colorful.
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Yes, and thanks, JoanK, for the link to the 'wedding' picture itself. You are right. It has great historical interest, but little artistic value. There is much to marvel over since it represents an artistic impression of Jesus' first miracle. Jesus looks so thoughtful. He senses the gloomy atmosphere. Not a smile to be seen. The bride looks the least happy of them all. What one can't read into that picture!
I seem to remember reading that artists then made good commissions painting the rich and powerful into biblical or legendary scenes. I don't doubt that this picture got Veronese into heaven.
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Earlier, we get paintings of "Saint so and so with donor", the donor being a smaller figure kneeling in a corner. At least, the artist earned a living!
Rembrandt was the painter who painted himself into many of the crowd scenes he did. It's fun to try and find him (he looks like the actor Gene Wilder). Kind of an historical "where's Waldo?"
In this version of "The Night Watch", if you click on the circle below the two top circles, you'll see him.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/11/world/europe/rijksmuseum-rembrandt-nightwatch-interactive/
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Louis Philippe was toasted on the Fourth of July in 1832. We need to watch Louis. He's been king of France for two years now...very popular with the Americans at home and abroad. At this time, S. Morse was hurrying to finish his "Gallery of the Louvre" * I love identifying his friends and family - and himself in the painting, too. But why the hurry?
"Nor did he provide the least sign or hint of the deadly scourge then raging outside the museum (cholera, I presume?) - or the inner torment of the of the figure at center stage." (?)
So that's Morse in the center leaning over his student's shoulder. But why does McCullough refer to Morse's "inner torment"?* The link to this painting was placed in the heading for EASY REFERENCE. My guess is that McCullough will be returning to this painting again and again.
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One reason Morse was in a hurry was that the Louvre was going to close for the summer. He would then have to wait for months before resuming. He doesn't seem to feel he has infinite time to waste.
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Thank you for all the links and the explanations about the paintings. That's one of the best thing about our discussions - we mention something, or have a question, and BEHOLD there is the picture, or the answer, or an addendum, on the web!
Going back over the chapters as a review - Willis saying he recognizes "the American face,.......The distinguishing feature, he decided, was the 'the independent, self-possessed bearing of a man unused to look up to anyone as his superior in rank, united to the inquisitive, sensitive, communicative expression which is the index to our national character."
Has the rest of the world caught up with that attitude, and therefore, the American less identifiable? Was the rest of the world so bowed down at the time that Americans less class- consciousness stands out? I think that's probably so.
Don't you love the use of words, the picture he "paints" with words, in Morse's toast to Lafayette? ".......he stands there now. The winds have swept by him, the waves dashed around him, the snows of winter have lighted upon him, but still he is there......." (Pg 95)
I am amazed at how many times we have been given the image, in paintings, or words, of people in the past who are reading and walking at the same time (pg 121) "Bowditch......walked mornings and evenings, often reading Virgil." Can any of you do that? Did the same mishaps occur as today with people "walking while texting"; bumping into people, falling into fountains, walking into something? I can't imagine trying to walk and read a book, but it is said often enough in historic accounts, that it must have happened frequently.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about. When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes." Goodreads review
"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14 |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1); Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre (http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/)
Some Topics for Discussion
July 28 - August 3
Part II ~ Chapter 5 ~ American Sensations
1. While Healy paints dignitaries, they reminisce about important times in their life and their experiences visiting Paris or as a European, visiting America. Adams visibly trembled talking about his favorite authors - What is your memory of your first exposure to music, the arts, literature that moved you, that touched something within.
2. Is Barnum correct, do "people like to be humbugged"? Are the many Youtube videos showing us the unusual, ways that we are continually "humbugged?" Who are the Tiny Tim's of today, who, what personalities bring in the crowd of curiosity seekers?
3. Have you listened to the music of Thalberg, Chopin, Liszt and Berlioz? Do you have a CD or does your library have CDs that you can borrow to listen to their work - or can anyone find online a link to the work of these composers?
4. What about Louis Moreau Gottschalk...some of his piano compositions are on Youtube. Have a listen and tell us what you think.
5. Were you aware of the numbers of Native American Indians that visited both London and Paris? Where in America was the land of these tribes? Do you think Catlin was humbugging the people of France or genuinely providing an exchange of cultures?
Part II ~ Chapter 6. Change at Hand
1. What change was happening in Algiers in 1848? How disruptive to the Americans was this change in political power between 1848 and 1851?
2. Margaret Fuller classified three group types of American visitors to Paris - do you fit any of the three types when you travel to visit a new city?
3. What have you found out about the New York Infirmary and Collage for Women? Had you ever heard there was an institution run by women in the nineteenth century?
4. You have to wonder if Webster was an important figure that we continue to include in grade school curriculum because of Healy's painting showing him a man of character?
5. These are all Americans that show perseverance toward any difficulty that blocks their achieving their dreams - is this a characteristic of Americans?
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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PatH - I forgot about the Louvre closing for the summer months. Thought maybe Morse was hurrying to finish and head home because of the cholera! Thanks for the reminder. Weren't the Americans affected by the outbreak of cholera - and leaving Paris at the time. I don't sense any urgency to leave. Does McCullough write of a mass exodus?
" The political changes in France don't seem to have affected our characters' lives at all. How much do you suppose this generation was affected by the revolutionary ideas of the generation before?"
(Last question over Chapter IV)
I can't believe that the bloody revolt in the July Revolution of 1830, which took 3000 lives in the streets of Paris, didn't affect the lives of Americans at all. Maybe there weren't too many Americans living in Paris yet. Louis-Philippe became the new Citizen-King at the end of this revolt and returned to Paris.
In an earlier chapter we read how he had been living in exile in America for several years before this. At some point he'd been working as a waiter. Does anyone know where? Was it really New Orleans? He was also friendly with General Lafayette - and remained so once on the throne in France. The Americans in Paris enjoyed him immensely...were graciously welcomed at the king's court.
I'm wondering what the political situation in Paris during Louis_Philippe's reign. The Americans seemed unconcerned, I imagine because of their high standing with the king. He'd been one of them - worked as a waiter. A man of the people But the rule (and spending) of the " citizen king" favors the upper classes - while it's the working classes who are beginning to revolt. Were the American's concerned about the rising discontent?
Look at Louis-Philippe's face, Jean! What do you see?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Louis-Philippe_1842_Lerebours_Claudet.jpg)
ps
Jean, nothing is mentioned about tripping while reading and walking. That would be a main concern of mine! ;)
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JoanP, like you, I'm not sure what McC means when he speaks of Morse's "inner torment." I think it may be due in part to the cholera epidemic that was taking so many lives, and also in part due to criticism of Cooper, that Morse felt was unjust. (p. 91)
I'm surprised that Morse did not wait for the Cooper family to return to Paris so they could all travel back to America together. Such was the wish of James Fenimore.
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"I can't imagine trying to walk and read a book"
I used to do it as a child. In fact, I would leave a book at the bottom of the stairs to read while I was climbing them, then leave it at the top to read going down.
Now I can't even walk and chew gum at the same time!
But DM really paints pictures for us to see, doesn't he. It's his good writing as much as his subjects that make him so popular.
Off to read the next section. I feel we could discuss this one forever, there's so much here. Which did you find more interesting, the artist or the medicals?
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From my reading, McCullough is definitely giving us an American viewpoint - there is much going on in Europe that France is just one of several nations going through a populous uprising wanting change - and he does not mention much about the Church that was a huge factor in these two revolutions 1830 and 1848 -
My guess is that Americans think of church firstly as a religion rather than as a political arm of the government and so trying to add an additional understanding of how a state religion and a history of the politics of a religion that was entwined in France since before it was France and still Gaul would probably not be important to most Americans - after all, their forefathers left all that for the freedom of religion excluding both a king and a state religion. They all appear to have on their mind learning as much as possible about their discipline in the arts in sciences. I am also thinking few of them have a good enough command of the language to carry on a political conversation with a group of Frenchmen -
To get into a conversation may even require you have already established a viewpoint - McCullough seems to show them having respect for the Royals, and enjoying the vast improvements in Paris so that I bet listening the likes of Karl Marx would seem almost a frivolous waste of time.
Also, we hear of visits to restaurants but they seem to do things in groups or in pairs which would naturally make a chance encounter more difficult as well as, this time in history strangers of their 'class' (they are not from the poor of America) would probably require a letter of introduction. Because the other aspect of French life that appears missing to me is meeting with or commenting on the powerhouse authors of the time which again would require language skills - Dumas and Hugo and the lot were not translated into English.
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Barbara: we are a little early for Marx. His first published criticism of society was in 1844.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/bio/marx/lifeandwork.htm
I guess they could have run into him in coffee shops before he was kicked out of Paris. But my guess is that you're right: they probably hung out with other Americans. they didn't seem to like even the English that they met. too much bad feeling left over from the Revolution?
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JoanP: I missed your post. What do I see in his face. he looks like he has a stomach ache. e to him would have a pain in the neck. :D
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I think Louis-Phillipe's face says "This is so boring." :)
This link doesn't say where L-P worked as a waiter, but on Amazon for 1 penny you can buy his Diary of his visit and maybe find out. Click on the link on this site......
http://www.frontiertraveler.com/on-the-trail/louis-philippes-diary-of-travels-in-america/
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JoanK McCullough talks about Marx being in Paris for the 1848 unrest - he may just not have written his book yet however, this unrest was taking place in Germany, Italy, and the Austrian Empire which either the Americans were not aware of since news did not travel as it does today they may have been going on with their life much as we are and yet there is major upheaval in other nations of the world.
Whoops looks like he and Engels had written the Manifesto that was published in Germany in 1848
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Interesting, how much you can read in Louis-Philippe's face in that portrait, isn't it? Bored with his role as the Citizen-King, when he was no longer interested in needs of the common citizen, Jean? Or a stomach ache, upset because he's thinking about the dual role he's playing or the rich food in which he's been indulging with his upper class friends, JoanK?
Tomorrow, Barb will lead us to later in Louis-Philippe's reign in Paris. Are we prepared for the last monarch in France? How will the Americans react? Will they even notice?
I found this...maybe it will help us to understand what happened to his reign that seemed to start out so well...
"It must suffice to note something of his personal attitude towards affairs and the general effects which this produced. For the trappings of authority he cared little. To conciliate the revolutionary passion for equality he was content to veil his kingship for a while under a middle-class disguise. He erased the royal lilies from the panels of his carriages; and the Palais Royal, like the White House at Washington, stood open to all and sundry who cared to come and shake hands with the head of the state. This pose served to keep the democrats of the capital in a good temper, and so leave him free to consolidate the somewhat unstable foundation of his throne and to persuade his European fellow-sovereigns to acknowledge in him not a revolutionary but a conservative force. But when once his position at home and abroad had been established, it became increasingly clear that he possessed all the Bourbon tenaciousness of personal power. "
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Karl Marx comess to Paris. And is soon sent packing, I believe. Was it the Paris police who made him feel unwelcome? I've puzzled over the 'politician' mentioned in the first paragraph in the dust cover flap:
'The Greater Journey' is the enthralling, inspiring - and until now, untold -story of the adventurous artists, writers, doctors, politicians, architects, and others of high aspirations who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, ambitious to ecxel in their work.
And we're getting a fine view of these visitors to Paris and their great efforts. But I get the impression that McC would rather not get too involved in French politcs, especially the Paris version. Americans in Paris had every reason to feel very smug about their own revolution of a generation earlier, with its guarenteed freedoms, unheard of in the old world of Europe. The French revolution just went on and on, through an endless cycle of republics and empires, with the First, the Second, the Third, the Fourth, the Fifth, with the Church, the Army, the Arisocracy The Bourgeoisie, The Working Class all contending for political advantage. Who can make sense of it. Karl Marx was eager to try.
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Who can make sense of it.
Truer words were never said Jonathan as the old saying goes - preparing for next week was a challenge - every book or article I looked at or read had different citizen army numbers and ran the gamut of death numbers from as low as 84 - Dumas claims 200 - several say 800 - doing the math McCullough is suggesting 1800 plus 1200 of the king's forces - then there is a vast array of numbers for the royal army from 20k with an additional 40k added to as low as a total of 24k as well as, an array of numbers for the citizen army from 3,000 to 5,000 to 10,000 and one at 15,000 - I was beginning to wonder if they lumped the 1830 and 1848 numbers into one -
I am thinking McCullough used numbers he found in his researching the Americans mail and diaries - makes you wonder if any war numbers are accurate - just looking at the news today because of the cease fire folks are back into Gaza finding dead family members and yet, the official number is shown at almost 1000 - who knows what is under all that rubble and so I am seeing this bit of French history as coming from whatever the various newspapers and word of the day declared that was found in the writings associated with the Americans and how accurate that is is anyone's guess.
Of course my opinion, or is it prejudice that sneaks in when I conclude the French were never known for accuracy however, Gallic drama has been up there with nobility, freedom, liberty and a few other desirable traits.
Interesting Dumas plays both sides of the street supposedly behind the revolution however, he does say to his mistress something close to "give a match to the peasants and they will burn down all of Paris" then he rants on of all the valuables in Paris that would go up in flames - they may not have burned it down but they sure tore down so many beautiful buildings - what was that all about - I wonder if they even know - just crowds wound up that could not control themselves do you think? Well if McCullough does not even mention but one building destroyed who are we to judge why folks destroyed the newly built beautiful buildings of Paris 165 years ago.
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I know one reason Louis-Philippe looks bored. To pose for one of those early Daguerrotypes, you had to sit perfectly still for something like 10 minutes.
I've puzzled over the 'politician' mentioned in the first paragraph in the dust cover flap:
We've already met at least one politician--Charles Sumner. And we absolutely mustn't leave this section without commenting on Sumner's remarkable epiphany. Sumner had not had much contact with blacks; he had only seen slaves for the first time a few years before, and they seemed more like animals than people to him. Then, in Paris, at a complicated philosophical lecture, he saw fashionably dressed black men in they audience. They were treated as intellectual equals by the other members of the audience, talking with them about the lecture. He concluded that the difference between blacks and whites in America was "derived from education, and does not exist in the nature of things."
How many people are willing to change their prejudicial notions just from observing real facts? Not only that, but Sumner devoted a lot of his political career to efforts to get black people the rights they deserved as equal human beings.
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Pat I wonder if instead of bored as if he needed more in his life it is the look of boredom that comes when you have had the stuffing's knocked out of you and your life becomes a mind game of what else he could have, should have done.
He really did a good job and gave more freedom or liberty as the French prefer to call it to many more in society as well as, arranged to make Paris the beautiful city we know today - trying to make sense out of what happened, finding himself in Britain with no hope of returning to France with dignity is a difficult pill to swallow I would think - everything in his life must appear gray therefore, he is living out his years. This is not a man who could take solace in gardening or watching his children grow.
From the various political views during this time in history it appears he was in the middle of the perfect storm - the old culture and the new clashed with no clear desire for order from the new so that there were constant clashes as the new refined what they wanted. Reading Roman Catholic History and current church political views the church still smarts and sees this time in French History to be more damaging and a greater blow than the Reformation.
Cannot find it now but there was a virtual map that showed the number of monasteries, convents active in Europe before 1830 and the decrease of 90% over the next 20 years. Monks, priests, nuns caste out leaving the lessor educated country bumpkin type parish priest as the majority representation for the church. The loss of both manpower and property built up over a thousand years was monumental and could be likened to the Bolsheviks taking over Russia.
Side by side with the Church was the French Aristocracy. That connection was established before Charlemagne, back to Cloves in 486 whose Burgundian wife was instrumental in his conversion and then in 751 when Charles Martel's son, Pepin III made a power move and arranged for Pope Zacharias to make him King, thus the start of the Monarchy and Church mutually dependent. The scribes would be headed by the Chancellor while nobles and knights battled and developed wealth. All over Europe that 1000 year plus system was turned on its head in less than 100 years.
Just reviewing the history of it all and it astonishes me - the change in what we today expect in life, how western society functions that for us in America is just over 230 years and for France just over 160 years. So no wonder the church sees those 35 or so years of French history as a mortal wound and this is the wound that I bet Louis-Philippe felt deeply. He, like his uncle may not have been from a long line of noble blood but they carried out their role and duties with all the propriety of noble royalty.
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BARB: on Karl Marx timing: I was trying to figure out if Marx was in Paris when our characters were there, so they could have "listened" to him. According to this:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/bio/marx/lifeandwork.htm
He moved to Paris in 1843 and was kicked out in 1845. He did publish while there, an article. Later, he will write about some of the events in Paris we will read about in this new section, but if I understand correctly, he wasn't there or involved in them.
I admit the timing of the book is getting too much for me. I think of all the characters we've met as being there together, but they are coming and going at slightly different times. And now we have a major political upheaval, with the (probably clueless) Americans as spectators.
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I'm majorly disappointed in Morse, with his jingoistic ideas. He is definitely NOT my kissing cousin!
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Golly don't you hate it when a whole post disappears - yes, I was agreeing with you that the characters in the book come and go - they do seem more intent on their learning mission than to engage in politics - but to do that they are at such a disadvantage not living with the history of a place - We do not read that anyone of those included in McCullough's book who visited the Panthéon, realized it was the original Abbey of St Genevieve noting that is where Clovis is laid to rest - I do not think they would know how to relate to what was going on except to think - we did that, been there, when the Declaration of Independence was written and included in our Constitution are some of the things France was fighting about in the streets.
Talk about age affecting your view of who you are based on where you live - that was one of the things that stirred me when I walked down the steps of several Medieval church buildings in Paris and in the South of France - they were so worn - stone steps curved and polished smooth by the feet of thousands of people for hundreds of years - did not experience that in any of the buildings I visited in Britain or Germany or Switzerland - I was only in northern Italy and wondered if there were still buildings in use that were built and continually used since early Medieval times that show that similar wearing down of stone.
I guess McCullough can tell us waht Morse said and how he acted based on written material but we have no way of knowing why he thought as he did - it does seem extreme doesn't it Joan.
JoanK so many that write knowingly of this time in European History do keep bringing up the name of Marx above all others - somehow he was influencing the thinking of the day and since he was in Paris before 1848 it is an exercise that could be undertaken and probably has, that tells who in the revolution visited with him or had coffee in the same coffee house and therefore, the talk would have been about the change he saw for society.
Actually reading Marx and even Lenin they are not so subversive as we have grown to believe - it appears the communists ran with the philosophy tinkering with it as they went along.
Can you remember your first experience in the arts or hearing music or even reading a book that knocked your socks off - that profoundly changed your concept of wonderful?
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I knew Paris was old but this is amazing - the city has been ruled for over 1500 years - get this...
http://www.athenapub.com/14merovingian-paris.htm
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It was Roman too, long before it was Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutetia)
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Fabulous Pat - I forgot and while reading remembered we learned of St. Denis in grade school - but what made me laugh outloud and now I see - my head is spinning with the books I have read how those of us with a European heritage are only here today because our ancestors successfully lived through the Black Death.
What is so funny to me is that when I hit the link to learn who were the other 14 Helpers other than Denis (started in the Rhineland it was believed the Fourteen Holy Helpers were a group of saints venerated together in Roman Catholicism because their intercession is believed to be particularly effective, especially against various diseases.) First on the list are the three holy maids - Saint Margaret with the dragon, Saint Barbara with the tower, Saint Catherine with the wheel. Generations of women in my family are named one of those three with Catherine being the most used.
My mother's mother - my grandmother - well her mother came from the Black Forest and her father from the Alsatian area - my father's family also have a lot of Catherines and my father's grandparents are from the Rhineland and one grandmother from someplace within easy walking distance of the Netherlands. All areas that would have experienced the plague.
Wow what we hold onto in family with no clue to its origination.
I wonder if Margaret Fuller had any clue to the value of her name - she sure did not follow in the footsteps of Saint Margaret of Antioch is the patron of safe childbirth - where as Elizabeth Blackwell, (if you believe in Saints) furthered her knowledge to safer childbirth as if St. Maggie was looking over Lizzie's shoulder whispering - study hard and open a women's hospital back home in America.
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Barb, what a loss - that lost post of yours. I do admire your perspectives, the fabulous historical dimensions and complexities of the past. I can't believe the Roman establishment at Lutetia (Paris), 2000 years ago. The amphetheater looks like it might seat 50,000. How apt to compare the people who were out to destroy the Church to the Bolsheviks of revolutionary Russia.
JoanK, You make an interesting comment with: " And now we have a major political upheaval, with the (probably clueless) Americans as spectators " Yes, they must have wondered about the meaning of it and must have thought about it, after all, it was the best and the brightest going over there.
Pat, in fact suggests that "we've already met at least one politician, Charles Sumner," after I had failed to find one.
I can't think of Charles Sumner as a politician - yet. Perhaps he becomes one later. Of course, now I remember, from reading Team Of Rivals. Sumner eventually became Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations committee and Lincoln used to ask him for advice. But now, at first no one enjoyed Paris more than he did. He came to study. But the experience of Paris overwhelmed him. McC gives him the first word, to start Chapter I:
'The thought of going abroad makes my heart leap.'
Of course he studied hard. But we're told that 'found life in Paris exhilarating. Already at the Rouen Cathedral he could hardly contain his rapture. The Lourve caused his heart to start thumping. He climbed the 400 steps at Notre Dame to see all of 'old historical Paris'. He thought of himself as being on a scholary quest. But he also enjoyed the theater and the opera. Who would have time for the passing Parisian politics?
I'm puzzling over something else, relatively minor. We read, on page 94: For several years now, it had become the custom among a number of Americans in Paris to celebrate the Fourth of July at a grand patriotic banquet. At so it happened on July 4, 1832, with Morse presiding as President, and every one joining in toasts to George Washington and the new president of the United States, Andrew Jackson, King Louis-Philippe and the City of Paris, some twenty toasts in all.
In 1832 Jackson wasn't a new president. He had been elected in 1828, and was about to run for a second term. Am I missing something? page 94
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Growing up in a small town in Pa, i didn't have much exposure to an emotional arts experience. But as a teacher in a high school in Harrisburg, Pa in the sixties, i got a new education. The school had very good arts and music programs. One day when the orchestra was giving a spring concert that the whole school attended, a very slightly build sophomore, Jewish ( and i say that only to say that he was a student who in today's schools may be one who would be bullied) walked to the grand piano and with no music in front of him proceded to play the entire Rhapsody in Blue. (you may remember that it is about 15 mins long)
When he finished, this student body of largely lower class families gave him a standing ovation! Tears come to my eyes today, as they did that day, as i remember. It was the first time i ever heard R in B live. The students may not have known anything about the composition, but they understood that the piano player was very talented and that they had just witnessed a major accomplishment.
The school population was about 30% Black - most first generation from the South - 15% Jewish and many other Eastern European immigrant backgrounds. It was a moderate "inner-city" school. Many college classmates would exclaim when i would say i was teaching at Wm Penn HS, "aren't you afraid to be there?" It was a working class population and almost all of them had instilled in their children's minds that education was vitally important. There was never a day in the 5 yrs that i taught there that i was afraid.
Too bad many students no longer get the opportunity to hear, to play, or even learn about, good music in the schools.
Jean
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A delightful piece of
Gottschalk's with a fun and informative intro by Lincoln Mayorogra, not a bad pianist himself. ( i hope this link works, i don't know the trick of creating a smaller url)
Banjo by Louis Gottschalk
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=louis%20gottschalk&source=web&cd=23&ved=0CKEBELcCMBY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcNsG5U4SqEY&ei=PszXU-qeI5KQyASGoYHIDQ&usg=AFQjCNESskf-B3NKXbt_5_n1XC07N5W6tw&sig2=fiXVNbAHOupZQBTOOs9R2g&bvm=bv.71778758,d.aWw
Are the Kardashians and all the "Housewives" shows the dumfooleries of today?
I absolutely love music on the internet, especially that i can find almost anything i want to hear on youtube. I have about 2 dozen playlists that i've made up with my favorite music on them. Last night i spent a lovely evening listening to Boots Randolph and his very soulful sax - i love a sax. I also listen you "programmed" music like Pandoro and Accuradio on which i listen to all kinds of music, but on Accuradio i especially like that i can listen to particular classical music composers. I do like Chopin and Mozart, soothing sounds. :)
Jean
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JEAN: are you in "The Classical corner" discussion on Seniors and Friends? We get together online every Sunday to listen to a classical music program one of our members narrates, and in between discuss our classical music experiences.
"http://www.seniorsandfriends.org/index.php?topic=1693.8490
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Geeee...took off one day to catch up with these two chapters and you've taken off without me! I'm not complaining really! This is fantastic! So much to think about - and marvel at!
No wonder McCullough titled Chapter V "American Sensations"! You've taken it one step further-
JoanK, I laughed at your description of the "clueless Americans" during the political upheavals. They seemed to have no idea of the significance or insignificance of the events that seemed to flare up and then settle down right away. Maybe the American visitors were unaware of the history of France... Taken out of context, the frequent squirmishes and changes in leadership must have been puzzling to visitors, but they seemed to be over as soon as they began...and life went on as usual.
I enjoyed reading the links to the history of Paris...PatH is right, the history goes back to the Romans...Remember the old translation - "All Gaul is divided into three parts"?
Here's something that may be of interest...the last sentence takes you to Clovis...
In the 1st and 2d centuries AD, Gaul flourished through the export of food, wine, and pottery. In the 3d century it suffered devastating barbarian raids, however, and the Roman emperors' ineffective defense led to the creation c.260 of a short-lived kingdom of the Gauls. Beginning in 406 various Germanic tribes, especially Vandals, ravaged Gaul. The Visigoths (see Goths), nominally Roman allies, settled in Aquitaine, where they cooperated with the Roman general Flavius Aetius in the defeat (451) of the Huns. By 478 the Visigoths had also acquired Narbonensis. Meanwhile, the Franks took over northern Gaul, and the Alamani and Burgundians settled in the east. The last Roman territory in Gaul fell to Clovis, king of the Franks, in 486.
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Have you noticed the wave of Americans coming in the late 30's are a lot less circumspect than the first group, who seemed to be aware that their deportment reflected on their country. This group was as McCullough called them, "sensational" - drawing attention to themselves. Why do you think this is? Do they feel more comfortable in Paris after the earlier group had paved the way and prepared them for what to expect?
Thom Thumb, Caitlin's Indian dancers and and Gottschalk's performances that brought even Chopin to his feet were sensational - the Americans have become the talk of the town! Thanks for the "Banjo" performance, Jean. I was saddened to learn that his hectic schedule took its toll on his health and he died at 39.
There's so much here. A good thing we have a week to share it all.
One quick question about the daguerrotype pictures - PatH -yes, sitting still for 15-20 minutes posing for a picture would have made Louis-Phillippe grumpy. I have a number of these metal images of ancestors. Being the oldest in our family, it has become my responsibility to scan and label the old family photos. (I'm the only one who knows who they are.)
Here's my question - can one scan a daguerrotype to my computer, as with other images? I'd hate to spoil one by trying... Does anyone know?
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'the wave of Americans coming in the late 30's are a lot less circumspect than the first group,
That's an interesting observation. It may seem superficial, there's certainly more to it than that, but I can see the first wave being touristy and the later one entrepinurial.
Jean, it's pleasantly delightful just to imagine your magical, musical moment at Wm Penn HS.
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JoanK, i listen to as much of Don's Sunday afternoon program as i can. Sunday afternoons are usually interrupted, pleasantly, by family members, especially my dgt and oldest grandson. I do enjoy what i get to hear. I only occasionally comment on S&Fs during the program, but i'm often catching some of it.
Jean
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The "curiosities" would not be appreciated today, would they? Discrimination! I even felt bad reading about Tom Thumb; just as I would feel if a midget was walking down the street and people stopped to stare!
And can you imagine the outcry, the resentment of American Indians today of the exhibitions that Caitlin brought to Paris - tomahawks, scalping knives, rattles, drums, skulls, etc. However he recognized that there "was little time left before a whole way of life woud vanish, corrupted or altogether destroyed, and which he was determined to rescue from oblivion with his brush and pen. "
Enlarge the gallery of Catlin's paintings at the bottom of this site: (I wonder how true his paintings are the lives of the Indians, and how would you like to face that bull buffalo?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Catlin#
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This morning in my Delancy newletter came a book that compliments the period we're reading about. It is about America, but i'm sure it wasn't much different in Paris.
"Today's selection -- from What Hath God Wrought by Daniel Walker Howe. In 1815, Americans were young, went barefoot, and didn't take baths:
"Life in America in 1815 was dirty, smelly, laborious, and uncomfortable. People spent most of their waking hours working, with scant opportunity for the development of individual talents and interests unrelated to farming. Cobbler-made shoes being expensive and uncomfortable, country people of ordinary means went barefoot much of the time. White people of both sexes wore heavy fabrics covering their bodies, even in the humid heat of summer, for they believed (correctly) sunshine bad for their skin. People usually owned few changes of clothes and stank of sweat.
"Only the most fastidious bathed as often as once a week. Since water had to be carried from a spring or well and heated in a kettle, people gave themselves sponge baths, using the washtub. Some bathed once a year, in the spring, but as late as 1832, a New England country doctor complained that four out of five of his patients did not bathe from one year to the next. When washing themselves, people usually only rinsed off, saving their harsh, homemade soap for cleaning clothes. Inns did not provide soap to travelers.
"Having an outdoor privy signified a level of decency above those who simply relieved themselves in the woods or fields. Indoor light was scarce and precious; families made their own candles, smelly and smoky, from animal tallow. A single fireplace provided all the cooking and heating for a common household. During winter, everybody slept in the room with the fire, several in each bed. Privacy for married couples was a luxury. ...
"It was a young society: The census listed the median age as sixteen, and only one person in eight as over forty-three years old. Women bore children in agony and danger, making their life expectancy, unlike today, slightly shorter than that of men. Once born, infants often succumbed to diseases like diphtheria, scarlet fever, and whooping cough. One-third of white children and over half of black children died before reaching adulthood. The women had enough babies to beat these grim odds. To help them through labor, neighbors and trained midwives attended them. Doctors were in short supply, hospitals almost unknown. This proved a blessing in disguise, for physicians then did as much harm as good, and hospitals incubated infection. The upside of rural isolation was that epidemics did not spread easily."
What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815-1848 (Oxford History of the United States)
Author: Daniel Walker Howe
Publisher: Oxford University Press
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A very interesting link, Ella, to the life and work of George Catlin. It seems to me that his Indian Gallery is a magnificent record of a proud and noble race. It must have made a great show. Much to gratify a natural curiousity about an alternate civilization. Much to admire in the proud bearing of a noble race. Much to learn or adopt in life skills and sports. How we used to love playing lacrosse.
William Fisk's portrait of Catlin certainly makes him out as a no-nonsense artist. Why, he even got the buffalo bull to pose for him in a proper manner.
I'm trying to imagine a painted American Gallery as described in Daniel Howe's America 1815-1850. It would not have been very flattering portrait. Enough to make a native shudder.
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Jean: I remember Thoreau writing later than 1815 describing the once-a-year bath of some workmen, peeling of layer after layer of clothes that they had accumulated over the years.
Between that and the inevitable level of horse droppings (at least in the cities) people must have become almost immune to any sense of smell.
I wonder how much better France was. the fact that there were dandies doesn't necessarily mean they were clean.
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I am confused. What was the reason that the King, Louis-Philippe,fled the throne? McC states that the French were always excitable. "They will find fault with their rulers when there is cause and when there is not." Sounds like Americans to me.
Tocqueville warned: (mentioned several times in the book and need I mention the long discussion of his Democracy in America here on SeniorLean?) - "We are sleeping on a volcano."
Alexis de Tocqueville: http://www.tocqueville.org/tour.htm
I liked his country chateau.
One person mentioned religion; was this a reason for the riots? Was it the inequality of poor vs rich? Or was there one particular reason?
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Serendipity pops up again!
I'm reading The Senator and the Socialite a book about the first Black Senator (Bruce of Miss.) during Reconstruction and discovered that the high school for Black students in Washington D. C. was named the Charles Sumner H.S. It later was named Dunbar H. S. and, of course, is now "integrated" altho its population is mostly Black students. It had a fine reputation and Senator Bruce's son, DIL, granddaughter and grandson all attended it before going on to Harvard and Radcliffe at the beginning of the 20th century.
Jean
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The story goes on, doesn't it, Jean? Charles Sumner - abolitionist Senator...just years before the Civil War!
Jonathan's "entrepreneurial" designation for the "sensationalists" works for me.
Ella commented about how the "curiosities" would be regarded today. Made me remember the carnival side shows...and how it bothered me to see those people exploited. "Freak" shows they were called!
Some of those observers must have reacted the same way in Paris, don't you think?
To be fair to George Catlin, he didn't bring those Indian families to Paris. He was surprised to see them there. I can't imagine how they got there by themselves,though, can you?
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Ella, I can see why McCullough didn't attempt to get into the political details of the age...and why the Americans in Paris paid little attention to the frequent uprisings and barricaded streets.
It was such a swift turnover between Louis-Philippe's reign and the Emperor Napoleon's takeover.
"Louis-Philippe disappointed the country, and many of his supporters, when he began to govern as an autocrat. As France faced economic troubles, more uprisings took place throughout the 1830s. Louis-Philippe clamped down on dissent and put down worker insurrections. He soon gained a reputation for supporting the interests of the rich, and was resented by the poorer classes. During his reign, Louis-Philippe escaped from eight assassination attempts.
Abdication and Death
Following a period of economic stability in the 1840s, France experienced a depression in 1846. This trouble, combined with rejected demands for expanded suffrage, led to another revolution in 1848. Louis-Philippe abdicated the throne on February 24, fleeing to England as "Mr. Smith."
Louis-Philippe, having been unable to guide France through a tumultuous era, was the country's last king. After his abdication, France set up its Second Republic, while Louis-Philippe spent the remainder of his life in England. He was 76 years old when he died on August 26, 1850, in Claremont, Surrey."
http://www.biography.com/people/louis-philippe-9387069#exile-and-return-to-france
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Jean,
Are the Kardashians and all the "Housewives" shows the dumfooleries of today?
Not sure if "dumfooleries" is an actual word so I can't really answer your question, but I do watch the Kardashians and Housewives of Beverly Hills and New Jersey, and have to say all those I know who also watch call it our, "dirty little pleasure." :-[
I suppose it's really no different than Chapter Six, American Sensations, unlike the first Americans coming to be educated we now have Americans running over to Paris for the latest fashions, finest food, wines, and notoriety. We are entertained by the lifestyle of the rich and famous, and fashions we can't really afford, nor would probably never wear, and yes, Paris is the place to go for that!
The spring of 1845, just a year following Morse's triumph at Washington, marked the appearance in Paris of a decidedly different variety of American, the first wave of American curiosities or exotics__"les sensations americaines"__ who were the cause of great popular commotion.
It began with P.T. Barnum__Phineas Taylor Barnum__ the flamboyant New York showman, and his tiny protege Tom Thumb, and not even Barnum, for all his extravagant claims, foresaw the sensation they caused.
I especially like this:
Then, suddenly, on the first official day of spring, March 21, the sun shone brilliantly and the boulevards were at once fully "animated" in the spirit of the season. Crowds thronged the ChampsElysees. Tout Paris paraded by in their elegant equipages, providing a first glimpse of the new spring fashions.
Yet Tom Thumb stole the show, sporting a top hat, riding in a no-less- fancy miniature carriage with four grey ponies and four tiny liveried coachmen. The crowd along the avenue broke into cheers for "General Tom Pouce."
Because of the reception given, "the General" at Buckingham Palace, Barnum had no trouble arranging for a comparable appearance before King Louis-Philippe and his royal court at the Tuileries Palace on the evening of March 23. Tom came attired this time as the perfect upper-bourgeois gentleman in a well-fitting black coat, white vest, and a glittering diamond shirt pin, and was at once the center of attention and delight. Barnum had coached his "apt pupil" well. When a lady (who undoubtedly had also been coached) asked Tom in English if he planned to marry, he replied, "Certainly."
"And how many have you been engaged to marry?"
"Eight, all told."
"But they tell me you are fickle and faithless."
"It is true."
"In England the ladies ran after you a great deal, and you let them kiss you."
"That was to avoid hurting their feelings."
"How many times have you been kissed?"
"A million."
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That could be a description of a visit of the Kardashians, or the Housewives in today's time. They cause a commotion wherever they go and dress flashy and brilliant for attention, getting royalty to entertain them, for the sole purpose of pleasing the crowds and paparazzi who chase after them, when they are in their country. Dumbfoolier, might be a perfect description for them, if indeed it were a word, but then they are rolling in the dough as did P.T. Barnum and Tom Thumb! :)
"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"__"The more things change, the more they remain the same"__was the oft-quoted observation of a French writer, Alphonse Karr.
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Were it not for The Greater JOurney, I would probably not pay any attention to an article like this. But, I keep thinking of our American friends slowly walking in the gardens of the Louve and hope that they did not have to put up with : RATS (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/28/parisian-public-gardens-tuileries-louvre-rat-infestation)
I've heard the name, but who are the Kardashians and what have they done in life to warrant so much attention?
I'm behind in my reading, taking advantage of cooler temps to be outside. Will catch up when we get back in the 90s again.
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RATS - Mercy, Pedlin, those women are just standing watching them! Would you stand there?
In answer to one of the questions posed in the heading Margaret Fuller, a reporter for the New York Tribune, classified three species of individuals coming to Paris: one that comes to spend money, indulge in Parisian culture; another that is conceited and profoundly ignorant; and the third class was the "thinking Americans, that wanted to learn and carry knowledge back to the new world.
I've never been to Paris except for a day where I saw and admired the Eiffel Tower, which I understand was not admired by the French at the time it was being built. More later about that.
But I would imagine I would fit into each of the three caregories listed by Fuller. If I had money to spend I would delight in the culture of the country; I would come ignorant, but certainly not conceited and I would be willing to learn all I could. However I have no talent whatsoever to carry back to the citizens of my country. Would I could write a column for a newspaper such as Fuller did; only today perhaps a daily YouTube or blog???
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YOu might enjoy, as I did, these images of Paris in 1820 that are in our National Gallery of Art:
http://www.nga.gov/content/ngaweb/features/slideshows/paris-in-transition-photographs-from-the-national-gallery-of-ar.html
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about. When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes." Goodreads review
"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14 |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1); Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre (http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/)
Some Topics for Discussion
August 4 - 10
Part II ~ Chapter 7 ~ A City Transformed
1. How important were the name and parentage of Louis Napoleon Bonaparte? Could he have done what he did with his ability alone?
2. There were several purposes to constructing the new, wide, straight avenues. What were they?
3. Have you read Uncle Tom’s Cabin? Has it survived the test of time?
4. Harriet Beecher Stowe thought that New England starved one of beauty. Do you agree? What can we learn of Stowe’s character from her reaction to art?
5. Do you think the European experience shows in Hawthorne's writing? That of Henry James?
6. What makes a political climate that allows a senator to beat a colleague to a senseless bloody pulp without interference from bystanders?
Part II ~ Chapter 8. Bound to Succeed
1.
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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Paris can be such a feast. Even for the rats. Cavorting about on the grass. Or dining. Where's Manet, who was so good at catching people lunching on the grass? Or where's the gendarme? On my first day in Paris I found myself being screamed at by a gendarme. I had no idea what he was saying. I had no French. I resigned myself to being arrested. Until a passerby enlightened me. I was being told to get off the grass.
The RATS link also has an amusing column on the left: 'Ten of the best rats in literature.' The first nine are villains. But the tenth:
'The Wind in the Willows by Kenneth Grahame. Funny that one of the best-loved characters in children's fiction should be called "Ratty". But is the jovial animal who befriends shy Mole and introduces him to Toad actually a rat? Or is he a vole? The debate rages. JM'
Spoiler Alert! I believe there comes a time when rats will save the lives of some hungry Parisians. Bon Appetit!
I'm still puzzled. The spot in Paris where I was lingering didn't have more than a dozen blades of grass.
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pedln,
I've heard the name, but who are the Kardashians and what have they done in life to warrant so much attention?
Not much! Robert Kardashian was the lawyer who defended O.J. Simpson, for the murder of his wife Nicole and Ron Goldman. Robert Kardashian and his wife Chris were good friends to Nicole and O.J. That seems to be the start of their fame. They divorced and the mother (Chris) seemed to enjoy the cameras and celebrity attention and began a reality t.v. show with her new husband Bruce Jenner and daughters Kim, Khole, Kortney, Kindall and Kylie and her son Rob. Now they have a clothesline, own their own stores called "Dash" in L.A., and New York. Kim the daughter got notoriety for a sex tape that was released with her boyfriend years back. She just married Kanye West, and the paparazzi were all over them in Paris where they were wed. Anyone who watches any news can't miss the coverage of this family. Chris started her own talk show last year, but I don't think it got high ratings. Paris, L.A. and New York swarm this family as if they are royalty.
Ewwwwww RATS in Paris. Well that sure doesn't make me want to spend much time there. I think I also heard you are allowed to bring your pets into restaurants.
Jonathan, that is hilarious, a dozen blades of grass.
I was talking to my Pastor Fr. Chris about our church forming a tour group to go to Paris this coming year. I mentioned how I was reading this book, and how they talk about having to walk for miles. He said if you want to see the major sites they are all pretty much in a square, and not a lot of walking to do. He is from Poland, and I wondered later if he is like the French, a few minutes to them is hours to Americans walking.
Ciao for now~
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Rats in the Tuileries Gardens? The Kardashian wedding? What's next? Do you suppose the French are holding Americans responsible for littering MacDonald's debris and the gauche goings-on with the Hollywood crowd?
Ella, I liked your modest interpretation of Margaret Fuller's three categories of Americans in Paris. She probably put herself in the third species - the thinking American, anxious to carry back to America everything she saw and learned in Paris. Wasn't it sad to learn that her ship went down in a storm off of Long Island...within sight of land?
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Margaret Fuller was one of the many Americans who flooded into Paris right after Napoleon Iiii became emperor. Like many, she knew not a word of French. Neither did the US Ambassador to Paris - Richard Rush! He didn't appear to know what was going on when King Louis Napoleon abdicated during the bloody rebellion in 1848! Did he know how unpopular the King was at the time, or was he clueless?
Do you think it's important for an ambassador to know something of the culture AND the language of the country where he is representing the US?
Another question - do you think it is important to learn something of the language of a non-English speaking country you will be visiting for a while?
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Do you think it's important for an ambassador to know something of the culture AND the language of the country where he is representing the US?
Another question - do you think it is important to learn something of the language of a non-English speaking country you will be visiting for a while?
YES! And YES! How insulting to the people of the country not to.
Have you ever tried to read any Margaret Fuller? Oh my goodness, so wordy, such long sentences and, of course, the nineteenth century wording! She was very smart.
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I did know about Elizabeth Blackwell's life and the NYC Women's Infirmary. I read her biography in 1970. I remember when it was because i was teaching in a NJ high school and was pregnant with our dgt. Of course, the powers that be had decided that Heaven Forbid a teacher should be standing in front of a classroom who had obviously had S-E-X! So a pregnant woman was to resign at 4 months into the pregnancy. Because of the fashion of the empire style dress in 1969-70, i taught until the second week of April - our dgt was born the 28th of May. I cheated! ;D
Any how, havng nothing to do for the six weeks after i quit teaching, i went to the library and never having learned anything about women's history in school, or college, i started reading the bios of women, starting at "A". Jane Addams was one of the first, but Elizabeth Blackwell came along quickly.
I loved the story that she was only admitted to the little medical school in Geneva, NY because the administration decided to leave it up to the few dozen male students as to whether they should admit a women, they being sure that the vote wld be "no." Boys will be boys, especially those around the age of 20, they thought it might be a great joke to have a woman in the anatomy classes or in the dissection labs and they voted "yes!"
She had trouble getting a place to live. When landlords found out why she was in town, they were appalled at this strange creature who wanted to be a doctor! She weathered a lot of harassment, but graduated near the top of her class.
As always when norms are changing there sometimes arise strange contradictions in people's behaviors. Even though she had fought for the opportunity to attend medical school, had considered it her right to do so, had weathered the classes and the labs and the harassment, when it came to graduation she thought it unseemly to walk across the stage to receive her diploma. So she sat in the front row of the auditorium and her brother went on stage to accept her diploma. Isn't that ironic?
Jean
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She weathered a lot of harassment, but graduated near the top of her class.
It seems it's always been that way, Jean. Someone in a minority -- gender, race, religion, disability, etc -- has to work twice as hard to prove her/himself.
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I agree with you about the necessity for an ambassador, or representative of the US to know the language of the people in the country to which he is appointed. Without naming names, this is not always the case. How unfortunate it was that Richard Rush was the US ambassador to France - and spoke not a word of French! He had no idea that his "friend," the Citizen King had abdicated - and then when he found out, immediately switched his support and allegiance to the new emperor, Napoleon III.
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I can't put my finger on the reason why I felt an instant dislike for Margaret Fuller and took an immediate liking to Elizabeth Blackwell. I wonder if the Parisians felt the same way. I knew nothing about Margaret before meeting her in these pages. Maybe it's not a fair picture of the woman - described as an "ardent feminist" and as Jean found her from her writing - "very smart." To me she came across as judgmental, strident, even... So shehe liked the French women, but didn't like the men, "sauntering arm in arm" in the Tuileries Gardens. Oh really! And she divided all Americans into three species...into which everyone was designated a place. I think you showed her that there is considerable overlap, Ella - all people don't fit in the slots she has assigned them.
Elizabeth Blackwell on the other hand, understood the times in which she lived. She didn't give up her dream of becoming a doctor, even though she was turned down by all the med schools to which she applied - until accepted by the Geneva Med School in NY. When she went to Paris to enrich her education, she followed the advice of Dr. Pierre Louis, when none of the Parisians would help her - and was accepted by the Maternite hospital, where she proved herself and gained invaluable experience and confidence. Later when she returned to the US she founded The NY Infirmary and College for Women.
\Elizabeth Blackwell followed the route I would have taken back then.
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It's interesting that Margaret Fuller should find her way into the book. And interesting for what she is quoted on her Paris experience. She seems to have spent more time watching her compatriots than enjoying the pleasures of Paris. Perhaps it was her Boston upbringing and her association with that New England transcendental bunch. Couldn't she see that some Americans were there for a holiday? Not much is said about her experience of French feminism. It could hardly be improved on, since everyone knows that French women are adored and worshipped. George Sand's experience, no doubt, was exceptional. Fuller's death certainly was tragic, within sight of home!
What would she have thought of the Kardashians? Some folks certainly have a lot to hang out on their clothesline.
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Hahehe Rats - I had my own share till the biggest fattest cat I ever saw in my life took up residency in my back yard for a few months - at first the early morning explosion of sound on my roof had me running to see if the ceilings were coming down till I saw this cat bounding over roof and porch to catch a rat that was attempting entry into my attic - with all our wildlife roof rats are part of nature's "gift" to our neighborhood.
This book has us all tripping along finding out more and more about a time in history we seldom explore - I'm with you JoanP and I worry if it is because Blackwell is carrying out the activities I'm more comfortable associating with a woman where as Margaret sounds harder and appears more aggressive in her judgement of folks.
If anyone of us knew more about and even read the story of Elizabeth Blackwell's life I would have suspected it was you Jean- bravo on your dedication to find women who have made huge contributions to society - I am always so glad to read your posts they are so full of good things that make us stand taller.
Have a difficult time assessing the current "humbugs" of today when I compare them to the stories of Tim - I guess it is being a showmen sporting a curiosity versus a value to life - but then I wonder if curiosities are with us so that we are entertained and that life is not just a serious endeavor. Ah so, all I know is that if we did not have a nineteenth century Tiny Tim we would not have had the twentieth century version tip toeing through the tulips with a TV wedding to top all weddings. I just wonder the psyche of those who do not show an unusual curiosity but still have to make a public display of themselves - beyond my ability to understand - so I end up setting the whole conundrum aside as if it does not exist - now that is maturity isn't it :D ::)
Well I am proud of my typing here - doing alright with a glued finger - I cannot believe it - the Doctor actually used Elmer's Super glue to hold my finger together - Came home from lessons on Wednesday hungry - after taking the thick red rind of the cheese used my big 12" Henckels Chef Knife to slice and there was another rind the same color as the cheese - knife slipped off - I thought shaved my ring finger but did not but did land diagonally across the pinky nail. Blood spouting - no stopping it - call neighbor - to the emergency room with finger wrapped in a thick towel - Doc decides to stitch meant removing the upper part of the nail which would be more surgery so he GLUES it - arts and craft on my finger - he Glued it - still seems incredulous but it worked - of course finger swollen and throbbing yesterday and feels much better today - get this - No need to come back until the damage grows and hits the tip and only then if there is a problem - Well I guess this is one better than the nineteenth century before Elmer's Super Glue.
I ended up sitting back and watching a few movies that had been on my list - Mozart's Sister which is mostly about their trip to Paris and how they stay in Pompadour's house as well as, on the road when an axle breaks they end up staying by chance in the same convent as the three daughters of the king - I had no idea Louis had three daughters - now I have to find out what happened to them during that first brutal revolution of 1789 when they all lost their heads - The Dauphin died that year so that we do not read of his public death and it was the Dauphin (who was bonkers) who Mozart's sister meets several times as well as, she wrote music for him - Of the three daughters Mozart's sister is befriended by the youngest who is a year younger and eventually becomes a nun that her father, the king allows her to join an order whose convent is located close to Paris. The girls never saw their parents since they were little girls and it is the Cardinal who arranged for them to be placed in this convent far from Paris.
The movie was perfect to really see if the king is attacked then the church is really being attacked and if the church is attacked then the King is really being attacked - they are one and the same ruling one inside the other with the traditions of the church being the traditions of French royalty. The Mozart family is in Paris for the first time in the mid 1760s about 80 years before the time in French history we are reading about.
Something I saw on PBS last night explained that for American writers the difference between us and Europe has been Space and Race. That Europe did not have the slavery in its political, economic and social history as we do in America and - get this - American authors write from a point of view of space. The example of Longfellow and a few other early writers were used however, until the Civil War we in American saw the west as a wall, a boundary of the unknown, where as after the Civil War we saw ourselves as a nation from one ocean to the other. And so with that concept Catlin was not only opening the eyes of Europeans to what was beyond the wall but to the American's as well.
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ELLA: how nice to have the National gallery posting those photos of Paris in our time period just as we are reading about it. They seem to be tracking our reading. ;)
On my computer, I had to move the picture to the left a bit to see the small arrow on the right to move to the next picture,
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Interesting interesting... Our Catlin AND the Iowans had ulterior motives...
From a paper that I have a link by Joseph B. Herring, Selling the “Noble Savage” Myth: George Catlin and the Iowa Indians in
Europe, 1843–1845
The Iowas had traveled over four thousand miles from their village straddling the eastern border of present-day Kansas and Nebraska to England to perform in artist George Catlin’s exhibition and show. Catlin touted these American Indians as living examples of “noble savages” and their war dances and other ceremonies as authentic rites of a vanishing way of life. The Iowa performers did their best to please the crowd, and, not surprisingly, the audience loved the show. The English spectators assumed they had seen the Noble Savage.
Looks, however, could be deceiving, as some witnesses to the events that day fully realized.
This study is partly about the American artist George Catlin and his white contemporaries who promoted a mythical image of Native Americans for profit. Their story is relatively well known to historians and other scholars. The added dimension in this narrative is a group of Indians—the Iowas—the “commodity” that Catlin and others peddled to the public. These Iowas willingly participated in a deception—a commodification of their own culture and traditions—because they saw an opportunity to ensure a place for themselves and their tribe in a rapidly changing, pre–Civil War America. They presented themselves as noble savages, a fictitious image, to advance their own ends, and they silently conspired with George Catlin to confirm what Europeans already believed to be true about Indians.
Catlin, envisioned these Iowas as his ticket to the wealth and fame that had eluded him. He wanted to sell his vast collection of paintings and thought that the Iowas, authentic members of a “doomed” race of people, might facilitate that sale. He was a steadfast champion of the Noble Savage myth, which described American Indians as independent beings of stately bearing, brave but hon-
orable warriors and beautiful princesses, gifted orators, and creatures of innocence and simplicity living from the bounty of nature.
By 1844 he was well known in England for sounding the alarm that these noble savages and their traditional ways were doomed in civilization’s wake...The work received sympathetic reviews in the British press, partly because English critics opposed America’s harsh treatment of Indians and concluded that Catlin was correct—the U.S. government should be doing more to prevent the “inevitable extinction” of America’s innocent, noble tribal peoples.
The notion that noble Indians lived in harmony with nature’s laws had enthralled the English and other Europeans long before Catlin’s time. The myth began soon after Columbus’s voyages and was later refined and perpetuated by Jean-Jacques Rousseau and other eighteenth-century philosophers. The concept of the Noble Savage was eventually incorporated into Romanticism, the nineteenth-century movement that fostered exoticism and the glorification of nature. The Romantics hoped to reform a world made chaotic by industrialization, urbanization, and a headlong quest for profit. Their philosophy was a rejection of the modern, industrial world; for them, primitive societies represented the ultimate in natural perfection.
http://www.kshs.org/publicat/history/2006winter_herring.pdf (http://www.kshs.org/publicat/history/2006winter_herring.pdf)
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Interesting statement on Fuller and Ossoli's relationship from wikipedia....
Fuller and Ossoli moved in together in Florence, Italy, likely before they were married, though whether they ever married is uncertain. Fuller was originally opposed to marrying him, in part because of the difference in their religions; she was Protestant and he was Roman Catholic. Emerson speculated that the couple was "married perhaps in Oct. Nov. or Dec" of 1847, though he did not explain his reasoning. Biographers have speculated that the couple married on April 4, 1848, to celebrate the anniversary of their first meeting. By the time the couple moved to Florence, they were referred to as husband and wife, though it is unclear if any formal ceremony took place. It seems certain that at the time their child was born, they were not married. By New Year's Day 1848, she suspected that she was pregnant but kept it from Ossoli for several weeks. Their child, Angelo Eugene Philip Ossoli, was born in early September 1848 and nicknamed Angelino. The couple was very secretive about their relationship but, after Angelino suffered an unnamed illness, they became less so. Fuller informed her mother about Ossoli and Angelino in August 1849 in a letter that explained that she had kept silent so as not to upset her "but it has become necessary, on account of the child, for us to live publicly and permanently together." Her mother's response makes it clear that she was aware that the couple was not legally married. Even so, she was happy for her daughter, writing: "I send my first kiss with my fervent blessing to my grandson."
Barbara, so sorry to hear about your accident, but glad to hear the doc had the Elmer's glue nearby. Teehee, as Ginny would say.
The book i read about Elizabeth Blackwell was this one Lone Woman, published in 1970. There doesn't appear to have been another book about her for adults since then. There are several books for children, thank goodness!!!
http://www.amazon.com/Lone-Woman-Elizabeth-Blackwell-Doctor/dp/0316944882/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406954053&sr=1-13&keywords=elizabeth+blackwell
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Started to read Mondays selection, and I'm glad for it. I'm so ignorant about that period in French history: always wondered who this Napoleon III was, and where his rule came from. And interesting new characters, although it's frustrating to let go of the old.
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Not many movies either to give us a feel for this time in history - found one last night - a badly acted early Hugh Grant movie - Impromptu 1830s France, pianist/composer Frédéric Chopin is pursued romantically by the determined, individualistic woman who uses the name George Sand.
Women's clothes were more the full skirt rather than the pared down look of Jane Austin 10 years earlier however, some of the same social expectations with the men hardly having changed in attitude or dress.
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I remember being very impressed by a movie about Chopin and Sands as a child, but never remember the name or actors.
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I wonder JoanK if it was this one - there are a few others earlier in the 30s two in the 20s and one in 1910 but they are in German, French or Italian - this appears to be the first in English and made in the US
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038104/
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"By the shores of Gitche Gumee, By the shining Big-Sea-Water, Stood the wigwam of Nokomis"
And there is Henry Longfellow - his memorable HIWATHA. We had to memorize that poem in grade school and each one recite it; I can never forget it! So in Portland, ME I had to visit his home, over the objection of my sister who could have cared less, and I learned that pirates often came in to shore and burnt the town down after looting, so Longfellow's home and others had heavy wooden shutters with holes for putting rifles through to shoot those bad fellows.
A bit of history that no doubt is uninteresting; still everyone has a story!
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Reviewing last week's reading............
McCullough started chaper 5 with the famous cliche plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. He mentioned the change in communication - can you imagine the difference in people's lives when news traveled only as fast as a horse could run? - and Daguerre and political turmoil and the transformation of Paris. But i thought about it also when Morse joined the Nativist movement, the anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic outcry. That has popped up so often in world history - our fear of "the other."
I suppose anthropologists and biologists would say that has been transferred down through the centuries in our genes, the "other" since primitive times could mean danger - i'm an agnostic as to whether i believe in genetic history, but it certainly seems that all societies have found it beneficial to be suspect of the outsider. That just goes so against my nature. I guess i have been fortunate to live in a time and a place when i didn't have to live out that fear.
But political and societal behaviors do constantly repeat throughout history. You have probably noticed that i've used the cliche often in my comments on SL. Fortunately in the U.S. we do seem to slowly inch forward (imo), progressing to better behavior - or at least i thought that was true until the Tea Party became so vocal. I guess it means we must always remain vigilant.
D Mc says "Audubon, who had been married for 30 yrs, ...... assuring (Healy) the only real happiness in life was a good marriage." Really?? I snickered to myself (thinking back to our reading of the Audubon bio), when did JA come to that conclusion and did his wife feel the same way?? I remembered being very upset at JA leaving his wife and sons for months and months at a time, with no money or other resources, to pursue his love of cataloging plants and animals, and painting, and selling his books! Humph!
Jean
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Ella a few years ago I found the complete Hiawatha with full intentions of reading it through - Like you we learned to memorize a bit of the poem and it is a fond recollection.
Having over the years found a couple of early school readers there was a lot of memorizing of poetry as part of a school curriculum - I even remember having to learn a poem about every week - that was stopped before my children were in school - you have to wonder why and why kids can graduate from High School not having learned at least one second language.
But space in the shutters to shoot a gun would have been mouth gaping astonishment to the average Frenchmen at this time in history although they did enough shooting of each other - comparing their Civil War on the streets of Paris to our Civil War is an amazing difference.
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JoanK - don't let frustration over the monarchs, French kings, empires, Republics, Napoleons, emperors etc... It's only going to get worse in the coming chapters. Rather, be like the Americans living in Paris during these tumultuous times. Ignore it all - enjoy it all.
I was a French major...gave up long ago trying to keep up with the political situation in any given year. I'm reading The Shelf , a book suggested in the Library, not long ago. Just this morning, I came across this paragraph describing the Phantom of the Opera author, Gaston Leroux..
"He was born into the period in France's complicted history called the Second Empire, (1868) when Napoleon Bonaparte's nephew, Louis Napoleon, having been elected president of the Second Republic, seized power, restored the monarchy, and made himself the Emperor Napoleon III.
When France under Napoleon III lost the Franco-Prussian War, a popular uprising took place and in 1871 replaced the monarchy, very briefly, with a socialist government called the Commune, which was replaced in turn by the Third Republic. These were violent times."
Maybe in the middle of this mayhem, you've noticed the Civil War at home. I'm wondering what part the Americans living in Paris took in the Civil War. Did they head for home at last?
Confused? This is the state of affairs we will be coming into. Now I'm going back to read your posts which appeared as I was typing this. Also, I intend to scan my great grandmother's daguerrotype portrait to see what happens...I like the idea of mixing the old and new technologies to see what happens!
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All I can think of that I've read from the time of the Second Empire and Napoleon III is something that doesn't help much--the libretto of one of my favorite light operas, Jacques Offenbach's La Belle Hélène (1864). It's the story of the elopement of Paris and Helen, leading up to the Trojan War, transferred to modern times--1860s for Offenbach, all over the place in modern productions. The story includes an elaborate parody of the court politics of the time, with all the intrigues, gossip, alliances, etc. Of course this is completely opaque to me--I don't get any of it, but as an opera, it's both funny and tuneful, and an example of what they were enjoying at the time. Here's my favorite aria, the judgement of Paris. That's Paris singing, and Helen asleep in the bed behind him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyiHIOd8RTk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyiHIOd8RTk)
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Was just looking around at the Louvre online and came across this itemized history of the changes of the Louvre. Short and interesting narrative of the changes and pictures of its look.
http://www.louvre.fr/en/history-louvre
It seems to have been forever under renovation or new construction. Do you think it will ever be "finished"?
Jean
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Barb: thank you! It was "A Song to Remember." Well, I do remember it -- I'll have to see if I can rent it. No, maybe not. Stick with my memories.
Thanks, JOANK. I'm glad I'm not the only one confused. DM sheds a little light in the next section.
Pat: I love the staging on that aria.
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I bet if we saw that movie now it would seem pretty corny. Cornell wilde made a pretty dashing Chopin. He didn't do his own piano playing, though. That was done by José Iturbi.
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New section today. The political situation seems easier to follow here, and we get a new cast of characters--some new people, some old friends returning, some leaving.
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NEW CAST OF CHARACTERS! Yes, VIVE l'EMPEREUR
A fellow who got things done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_III
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You just shifted my whole day, Ella. I spent the last hour reading that very copious article about Napoleon III. He was both more capable and more repressive than he appears in McCulloch, but also had a number of social welfare ideas, and wanted universal (for men, that is) suffrage. Most of France's activities abroad, not being particularly relevant to the Parisian scene, aren't mentioned in our book.
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I'm particularly amused by his notion that "Monarchy...procures the advantages of the Republic without the inconveniences...."
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I haven't finished the reading, but I have to comment on this:
"Do you think the European experience shows in ... {the writing} of Henry James?" To me, the tension between his desire to be more British-upper-class than the British and his admiration of a romanticized "natural man" who was the diametric opposite is central to much of his work. I don't know how much of that upperclassness (spellcheck hates me!) of his he got from Boston elite society, and how much he picked up in Europe, (maybe DM talks about it) but he couldn't be Henry James without going to Europe.
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I wonder how far back the concept of Urban Planning took place - not building anew but tearing down and rebuilding the old and shabby - we still live with cities re-building with a plan that eliminates the poor just as Houssmman's plan for Paris eliminated the shabby housing of the poor.
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How did he ever get away with it? Tearing down so much of historic Paris. Where were the heritage people. How come all the displaced people didn't riot?
Napoleon III certainly was 'a fellow who got things done', as Ella put it. He got more campaigns going than his famous uncle, the founder of the Bonaparte dynasty. The nephew not only transformed Paris, but took on Europe and the rest of the world as well. It tires one out just reading about all his achievments in that lengthy article.
Pat points out: 'Most of France's activities abroad, not being particularly relevant to the Parisian scene, aren't mentioned in our book.'
That's interesting. Of course, McCullough had to decide what to leave out. I believe it could have been made relevant, if he had found the material in his sources. I'm struck by how little contact there was between the Americans we are reading about and political figures in Paris. Perhaps, like Harriet Beecher Stowe, they came primarily for the art and culture and enjoyed an American preoccupation: another Great Awakening. Obviously such a great thirst. And not a word of culture shock. Lots of joie de vivre. While Paris and France were in a turmoil much of the time.
Bellamarie, you have put it off too long. It's no longer fun, going for long walks in Paris. All the mysterious, romantic, crooked little streets are gone. Now it's just those mile long boulevards that go on forever. As a contemporary account had it, on page 209:
'How frightfully the way lengthens before one's eyes. These interminable perspectives....In the twists and curves of the old Paris one was relieved from the pain of seeing how far one had to go from one spot to another; each tortuous street had a separate idiosyncrasy; what picturesque diversities, what interesting recollections - all swept away! Mon Dieu! And what for?'
Thomas Evans, we are told, got rich with his speculations in Paris real estate. Remember him? The Emperor's American dentist.
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The dentist will have a heroic role to play at the end of this section.
I don't fault McCulloch for leaving out a lot of France's foreign involvements. The book would lose focus with all the sidetracks.
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Wide boulevards let in light, made the cathedral and other beautiful buildings stand out, but most importantly, they allowed large numbers of troops to be moved quickly, battalions could be marched in, or out, of town quickly! Similar to Pres Eisenhower's building the interstate highway system in the 1950s to move troops around the U.S., no?
Serendipity again. I'm reading a book titled "Rachael Carson and Her Sisters". It talks about many women who were involved in the environmental/conservation movements and, of course, Silent Spring and the importance of its making us aware of what pesticides, especially DDT, were doing to the plants, animals and people. Several people, some well-known, are quoted as saying it was as important a book as Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin, making as huge an impact on the country. One person said the three most influential books in Amer'n history were Thomas Paine's Common Sense, HBS's UTC and RC's Silent Spring.
Jean
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Read an interesting book a few years ago why some parts of the world use camels and others not - seems the original concept for roads was to move soldiers and their animals - some parts of the world a road was covered quickly with blowing sand or the terrain was too difficult and so camels seemed the better war animal where as the areas where roads could be built the horse was king that eventually led to machines and carts pulled or driven by horse and viola the moving commerce today on roads where as camels do not pull wagons or machinery and still can cross sand so there was a different fighting culture established where the camel is king. The book went on and on about the how and why of the growth of towns and the differences between the horse and camel culture.
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I had to turn my book in; so I will not continue in this discussion. See you next month, I hope.
Sally
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Sally, do continue to come here anyway. Lots of what we're saying is easy to follow even without the book.
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One person said the three most influential books in Amer'n history were Thomas Paine's Common Sense, HBS's UTC and RC's Silent Spring.
Jean
Has anyone here actually read Uncle Tom's Cabin? I'd love to know how it seems now. (I know what you're going to say--I should read it myself). The model for Uncle Tom, Josiah Henson, was a man of great ability, responsible for keeping the farm going, as his owner was both incompetent and an alcoholic.
What's left of the farm is a small cabin-like structure, with a modern roof, plastered onto a house in thickest suburbia, about 3 miles north of me.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1119500px.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/PatriciaFHighet/media/IMG_1119500px.jpg.html)
It's not Henson's actual cabin, but a different part of the slave complex, and presumably the cabin looked much the same.
http://www.montgomeryparks.org/PPSD/Cultural_Resources_Stewardship/heritage/josiahhensonsp.shtm (http://www.montgomeryparks.org/PPSD/Cultural_Resources_Stewardship/heritage/josiahhensonsp.shtm)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about. When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes." Goodreads review
"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14 |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1); Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre (http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/)
Some Topics for Discussion
August 4 - 10
Part II ~ Chapter 7 ~ A City Transformed
1. How important were the name and parentage of Louis Napoleon Bonaparte? Could he have done what he did with his ability alone?
2. There were several purposes to constructing the new, wide, straight avenues. What were they?
3. Have you read Uncle Tom’s Cabin? Has it survived the test of time?
4. Harriet Beecher Stowe thought that New England starved one of beauty. Do you agree? What can we learn of Stowe’s character from her reaction to art?
5. Do you think the European experience shows in Hawthorne's writing? That of Henry James?
6. What makes a political climate that allows a senator to beat a colleague to a senseless bloody pulp without interference from bystanders?
Part II ~ Chapter 8. Bound to Succeed
1. Are you familiar with any of Saint-Gaudens' statues? how do you like them.
2. The Exposition Universelle was incredibly lavish, costing huge sums of money. Would Louis-Philippe have done better to spend the money improving conditions for the poor, or did the influx of foreign spending produce enough benefit to be worth it?
3. Why was the Suez Canal so important?
4. Why did the French declare war against Germany when they were so ill-prepared and outnumbered?
5. Most, but not all, of the Americans fled Paris. If you had been there for a serious purpose, would you have stayed?
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
Jonathan, Bellamarie, you have put it off too long. It's no longer fun, going for long walks in Paris. All the mysterious, romantic, crooked little streets are gone. Now it's just those mile long boulevards that go on forever. As a contemporary account had it, on page 209:
Oh dear Jonathan, I am sorry to hear the best is gone. Knowing me through the books we have shared with the group, I am a sucker for the mysterious, romantic, crooked littles streets. We visited New Buffalo Michigan a few years back and they had a gorgeous little restaurant that had a setting of Paris. Oh how my hubby and I loved sitting outside admiring the decor and feel of Paris. Maybe we will return there since it's only a 3 hr drive.
Seems I have lost track of time, and interest in this book. As much as I was hoping it to be less complicated, and less political, with more of a real storyline rather than a tour guide/encyclopedia and bio of people, I found myself just satisfied reading all your posts. I may pick it up from time to time and finish it, but at this point, I must bid it adieu. I will continue to check in and read your posts because you all never cease to amaze me with your knowledge.
BarbSt.Aubrey, I hope your finger heals quickly. Roof rats??? Wow! I grew up in the country with acres and acres of land, and yes, rats and mice seemed to always find their way into our tiny little homestead, my Daddy built for us before he was killed in a train accident. I was watching the Kardashians last night and Kortney and Scott bought a beautiful mansion in California, and guess who their first guests were....drum roll please......RATS!!!!! She was devastated! :o
Okay will check back when I can. The children in my town go back to school August 19th and I have two day care children leaving me for Kindergarten, so I will be finding myself less busy, and more time hopefully for reading during nap times. It will be my lightest load for many years and I am looking forward to it. Retirement is looking better and better each day. ;)
Ciao for now~
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I had slowed on reading this book, couldn't keep up with the chapters. However, last night I was watching Antiques Roadshow, one of the "Vintage" broadcasts, Hartford in 1998 with a 2013 look at the values. One item was a daguerreotype portrait, and the expert's discussion included references to Samuel Morse, who came back to the US and used the daguerreotype for portraits. So now I have to get reading again, to find out more. One more renew left, so I'd best get busy.
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Bellamarie, Don't put it off any longer. Paris is still beautiful and lots of fun. Replacing the crooked, narrow streets with wide boulevards made it much more difficult to errect barricades and much easier to get at the unruly disturbers of he peace. Paris mobs could be so unruly.
More and more I see the book as McCullough's 'Gallery' of distinguished Americans who went journeying. It's strangely moving.
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Jonathan, I think our church will be planning a group trip to Paris in the next year or so. Perfect timing for our 45th Wedding Anniversary!
One of my reasons for falling behind in reading the book, is my six year old grandson has monopolized my ipad this summer. As soon as he walks in my door for daycare it's the first thing he asks for. Then his 3 year old sister has to have her turn. By the time they are gone I am exhausted and have no interest in reading because I fall asleep. The popular game of Minecraft is all the kids want to play, they don't even want to swim. I take all ipads, ipods and iphones away, and say it's time to go outside and play now. Ughhh....I am enjoying reading your posts.
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I know what you mean about grand kids...and their love for our technology "toys", Bella - especially the magical iPad. We've got 4 in the house this week, ages 6-12 - which cuts my computer time considerably - as you might imagine. It's 6:15 - no one is up yet! I have about 15 minutes before the early rising 11 year old should be down and we start the busy day.
We have a tour of the US Capitol booked for this morning, then across the street to the Supreme Court...for a short visit and a snack stop in their excellent cafeteria...
Followed by the Metro ride home (a big hit with the younger ones) ...
I'm going to try to squeeze in an early dinner when we get home because of the afternoon/evening schedule....which includes ice skating at the Capitals ice rink - an hour on the ice...and the kids didn't bring anything for warmth...long sleeves, long pants, caps, mittens...
Next sandwiches, before "Boys" head back to town for a baseball game and the "Girls" , (about- to-turn 13 granddaughter and Meanma) go on a birthday shopping trip.
Oh, and I just heard rain is predicted for this evening...just to add to the merriment!
Sorry, but just felt the need to let you know I hadn't abandoned ship!
Sally - as Pat says, we do hope you stay with the conversation here - even without book in hand. There is so much here and we'll miss your input.
Here comes early riser!
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I learned something about those daguerrotypes, nlhome ....do you have any? I would have liked to have seen that Antique Road show. Am serious about making copies of my own family tintypes -which I have decided mine are. Here's what I learned about the development of the first photos...
- Daguerrotypes 1840-1855
- Ambrotypes 1855-1865
- Tintypes - 1855-turn of century
I also learned that I can scan them with my scanner - as long as I leave the lid up. Still haven't had a chance to try it.
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Path funny that you ask about Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin. I've been thinking about that myself. You know, I can't remember when I actually read it...IF I did. The names of her characters are so familiar...Little Eva.. But maybe I just heard so much ABOUT it.. I decided it is something I really want to read myself. I also wonder if there are others who would like to read it together. Should we nominate it for September's Book Club Online? I'd be up for it.
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Oh JoanP., it's good to hear you can appreciate my situation with the grandkids and ipads. I love the time I get to spend during the summer months while they are off and need to come to my house for daycare, so sharing my devices is easy, to keep them coming. Love how you have all those activities planned. I wish I did not have to be tied down to my in home daycare during the summer so I could do so much more activities with my five, ages 3 - 12 yrs. old.
I have never read Uncle Tom's Cabin, and would be very excited to make it Sept.'s book, if that is what the club decides. Yet another "first" for me! Well, no grandkids today, they are with the other grandparents, so I may attempt to read a few pages of our book. Wish me luck!
Ciao for now~
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WOW! Getting some ice time for the grandkids on the Capitals' rink! LOL But, JoanP, who comes to DC in August packing long sleeves, long pants, mittens and caps? Wish I could join you.
As for going to Paris, Bella, look what Harriet Beecher Stowe has to say about it, on page 218: '...coming into Paris one feels a rustling and a waking within, as if the soul were crying to unfold her wings.' And this must have been a shock. After all she came to Paris looking for 'some peace and privacy, to be released from care, to feel unknown and unknowing. And soon exclaimed 'At last I have come into a dreamland.'
Of all McCullough's travellers I'm enjoying Stowe the most. And obviously the author enjoyed putting her into his book. He included HBS in an earlier book of his. Brave Companions: Portraits in History, in which she gets about 20 pages. There he quotes her as saying "God wrote it" about Uncle Tom's Cabin. A fantastic book. That was certainly a shot that was heard around the world. Sales took off like a rocket. I remember being thrilled by it when I was about 12. By a strange coincidence I found J D Hedrick's bio of her yesterday, browsing at the booksellers. The whole Beecher clan was so darn clever. As McCullough writes in Brave Companions, '...brother Edward, who was growing ever more militant over the slavery issue. All the Beechers were growing ever more militant over one thing or another. For Isabella it was women's rights; for the brilliant Catherine, education; for Charles, freedom from theological authority." And of coure there was famous preacher, brother Henry Ward Beecher embarrassing the family with his love affair with his parishoner in Brooklyn.
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'Seeing Emperor Napoleon III and Empress Eugenie ride by in their carriage on the boulevard des Italiens, she thought he looked stiff and homely, she beautiful but sad.' p214
I was struck by this impression made on HBS by the empress. It was in 1853. Eugenie lived on for another sixty years, so she gets the last word in a bio of her husband who died in 1872. Napoleon III And His Carnival Empire. I haven't read it (yet) but it looks good. I always look to see how a book ends. I make that a beginning. And this one certainly does that. Two amazing paragraphs end the book:
'...what should be the (historical) verdict on Eugenie? An objective reading of the evidence suggests that for all her faults, she was never quite the vindictive, self-centered, priest-ridden reactionary of republican legend - and for all her virtues, she was never quite the strong, loyal, long-suffering, and misunderstood heroine portrayed by revisionist historians.
'Rather, she was an unfulfilled, neurotic woman, of limited talents though fiery spirit, of great style, and commanding presence, who was unable to love and therefore desperate to dominate - a woman whose beauty and ambition won her great position but little happiness.'
Harriet's impression was right.
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Pat Conroy has an interesting chapter in his book "My Reading Life" about his visit to and writing in Paris. He doesn't say when it was, but my guess is in the 70s because he wrote Lords of Discipline there and it was published in 1980.
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Look no further, just read UNCLE TOM'S CABIN:
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Harriet_Beecher_Stowe/Uncle_Toms_Cabin/
Have a question. Were native indians actually "red" - red skin is what I mean. George Catlin's portrait of LITTLE WOLF shows definite red skin, but I always thought that was somewhat exaggerated in history.
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Shame on Hatty for not sensing the beauty of her own New England states. "With all New England's earnestness and practical efficiency, there is a long withering of the soul's more ethereal part-a crushing out of the beautiful-which is horrible."
She hd been senselessly, cruelly cheated in her childhood. One wonders what her parents and her home had been like.
Methinks cruelty moves her as she stood a full hour in front of the painting, RAFT OF TH MEDUSA, which I think is absolutely horrible. (in the book)
We all have different opinions, obviously, of what we admire.
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Great explanation of the Raft of Medusa and how it parodies French life during the reformation under the King of France -
http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/gericaults-raft-of-the-medusa1.html (http://smarthistory.khanacademy.org/gericaults-raft-of-the-medusa1.html)
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So many good comments.
I don't think it was cruelty in the painting that moved HBS --it was suffering, which she felt very strongly about.
Barb, thanks for the link to that great explanation of the painting. It was really the equivalent of a political cartoon, commenting on a current scandal. And it's interesting to be reminded of the visual tradition on which it draws, and to see the preliminary studies, and how Gericault refined the composition to make his point.
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'Were native indians actually "red" - red skin is what I mean. George Catlin's portrait of LITTLE WOLF shows definite red skin'
I don't think so, Ella. I believe they were only somewhat less pale than Paleface himself. But they seem to have been wonderful makeup artists, who loved to apply lots of paint.
Thanks for the link to Uncle Tom's Cabin. Just try to imagine the Table of Contents. Doesn't it make for an extraordinary raft of character and mystery? I can see HBS spending an hour with The Raft of the Medusa, thinking, should I write the book? With a chapter for each one of those suffering beings.
From what I have read the Beecher family environment could not have been more stimulating. Very religious of course, but the curious, resourceful young Harriet, given the run of her father's study, still found a copy of The Arabian Nights under a mountain of collected sermons.
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If you look at Little Wolf's face, most of it is painted vivid red, but the tip of his nose and the area around his mouth are a medium brown. And in Girardet's painting of Iowas performing for Louis-Philippe, their skin is medium or light brown, with painted red patches.
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The Indians of the Great Plains religion is rituals and a belief in a spiritual connection with nature. Colors and symbols are body paint that each have a different meaning - Face and Body paint for certain tribes indicated achievements and success - Red Ochra is the easiest to find and is/was used often to just keep mosquitoes away.
Red Color Symbolizes war, blood, strength, energy, power and success in war paint but also symbolise happiness and beauty if used as face paint - Black is used when preparing for war or today a big achievement and then the black is painted again as the sign of victory after the event or back in history when warriors returned successfully to camp.
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Fun to read your comments about the "red skin" of the Indian. You are probably correct, Barbara, in stating that they painted their skin for different reasons, I think I have read that.
Do tattoos today have meanings by any chance? Personally, I don't like them on anyone, but I wonder if a person who has made the choice to have tattoos, one or many, is of a certain personality, or the tattoos are a symbol of something?
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THE SCANDAL - AND IN THE SENATE OF ALL PLACES!
Senator Brooks of S. Carolina took his cane and beat Senator Sumner over the head 30 times until the cane broke! Sumner lay on the floor of the Senate unconscious and covered with blood.
And Brooks received only a fine of $300 for what he had done.
Sumner was attacked because of his famous CRIME AGAINST KANSAS speech:
http://www.sewanee.edu/faculty/willis/Civil_War/documents/Crime.html
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The emotional outbursts in the Congress in 1856 were a preview of the terrible Civil Wat which began 4 years later.
And Senator Sumner never recovered fully from the attack. However, the "cure" for his ailments were almost worse than the beating itself don't you think? Imagine being burned on your back without anesthesia and enduring five such treatments.
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I finally got a chance to read some of the book today on my ipod. All the grandkids brought their own ipods, so I only had to give up my ipad and iphone today. I really enjoyed the HBS chapter. Looking at all the photos was interesting, and seeing the rebuilding of Paris which became boulevards rather than cobblestone paths showed the new modern Paris. It amazed me how even though there were shipwrecks and a lost ship, it did not deter Americans from still flooding to Paris.
Paris is all a lit and glitter, yet poverty is inevitable. It does seem a bit sad to know how many were poverty stricken, yet Paris is so wealthy in their buildings, cafes, diners etc.
The cost of it all, exceeding even the most extravagant expenditures of times past, was to be met with some government funds and a great deal of borrowed money. By 1869 some 2.5 billion francs would be spent, forty times the cost of Louis-Philippe's improvements.
With that much money it would seem it would have been the humane thing to do in using some of those billions to help their poor. And yes, seems only the wealthy, or well off Americans were privileged to visit Paris. So while we have some American political activists in Paris, they did not deny themselves of the finest cuisine, and holidays aboard. Gives me a different view of these Americans and Parisians.
Ella, the beating Preston S. Brooks gave to Sumner with his cane was despicable, and yet he only was fined $300 and was considered a hero in the South, and was presented with gift of gold- headed canes. Imagine what would happen today if that were to take place.
When I saw the picture of Leon Gambetta, and the two Americans, Charles May and William Reynolds making their dramatic escape by balloon, when Paris was under siege, it reminded me of Dorothy, and the Wizard of Oz taking off in the hot air balloon. At that point they were probably thinking...."There's no place like home." ;D
Ciao for now~
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It's been a LONG time since I read Uncle Tom's Cabin. I would like to read it in Sept.
Sally
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We should probably move on to Chapter 8. It starts with an incredible display of wealth and finery, and transforms into the beginning of a horrible disaster. I put up some questions in case anyone wants them.
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Thanks for that discussion of "the Raft of the Medusa", BARB. It was very interesting.
That same painting was used in a TV art class I watched to illustrate the use of diagonals to create drama.
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It's a really clever diagonal, as Barb's site pointed out. The visual diagonal is also an emotional diagonal, a spectrum ranging from the grief and despair of the father with his dead son in the lower left to the hopefulness of the man in the upper right, signaling the ship that will save them.
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Some of the characters particularly seem to catch McCullough's imagination. Last chapter, it was Harriet Beecher Stowe; this one, it's Augustus Saint-Gaudens. He's certainly worth admiring--from a poor family, very hard-working from an early age. He picked an unusual career, and found a path which would lead to it, working in a very focussed and persistent way for years until he got there. Have you seen any of his statues?
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Here are some PBS videos of St-Gaudens work. The link is to the Shaw Memorial. The first half tells the story of Shaw and the 54th, the second half talks about the making of the memorial. On the right side of the screen there are links to other segments on Diana, the Huntress, and the designing of the coins.
If Whistler's White Girl was"too suggestive by far, in that the young woman's hair was undone and she stood on a wolf's skin" what a controversy Diana must have been. Good thing she was on top of Madison Sq Garden, not too seeable! :D
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8t8K7Aisx8U
Other info and works by St-Gaudens. The first piece i had ever heard of was the Adams Memorial in D. C. Click on the pictures for a larger view.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Saint-Gaudens
The French behavior getting into the Franco-Prussian War is eerily close to our going into Iraq. "The French minister of war assured the people that any conflict w/ Prussia would be 'a mere stroll, walking stick in hand.'" Ala, "we will be greeted as victors."
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"The French behavior getting into the Franco-Prussian War is eerily close to our going into Iraq. "The French minister of war assured the people that any conflict w/ Prussia would be 'a mere stroll, walking stick in hand.'" Ala, "we will be greeted as victors."
Unfortunately, it's eerily similar to going into any war. In the Civil War, both sides were convinced that it would only last a few weeks.
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Have you noticed that the Americans in Paris all seem to be abolitionists? Maybe it's because McCullough concentrates on New Englanders. You can just hear the Civil War drums in the background... In Paris, those supporting the North fight with those from the South - though McCullough doesn't tell too much about individual Southerners, does he? Have I forgotten someone? Terrible memory.
I loved the way Harriet Beecher Stowe goes through the Louvre on her first visit to Paris, a young woman who had read a lot, but had never visited a museum... dismissing most of the famous masterpieces as she compares them to her favorite authors...Hawthorne, Shakespeare, Dickens... Thanks for the information on Gericault's "Raft of the Medusa"... Harriet thought this one painting was worth the whole trip to Paris.
What attracted her to this particular painting? That one black man still standing - who waves a shirt or a rag - hoping someone spots the raft and saves the living. What an allegory! Is she comparing this painting to her own Uncle Tom?
I'm so glad we have time for St-Gaudens - what an interesting character! McCullough spends much time on this young man and his determination to become a sculptor! Born in Dublin, son of a Frenchman (a red-headed Frenchman) and an Irish raven-haired mother. The family emigrates to America and has a difficult time making a living. I loved his father, trying to match his sons' skills with their interests. Cutting cameos...led to Gus' future as a sculptor.
I took some photos of the Adams Memorial in Rock Creek Cemetery this morning...will bring them right back to add to those Jean has just brought in.
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JEAN: I just noticed your tag. "August 14, 1986 - Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper retires from active duty in the US Navy. A pioneering computer scientist and inventor of the computer language COBOL, she was the oldest officer still on active duty at the time of her retirement."
I met her back in my computer programming days. A formidable woman, succeeding in a man's world!
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So we packed up the grandchildren for home yesterday - much weeping and wanting to stay with us. I wonder how long that will last. It was touching.
This morning, I packed up map and camera and headed out with my chief navigator for Rock Creek cemetery in DC where the storied St-Gaudens piece . the Adams Memorial is located. No I didn't call it "Grief" as so many do.
Henry Adams left explicit instructions on the work - what it should look like, what to call it.
Saint-Gaudens's name for the bronze figure is The Mystery of the Hereafter and The Peace of God that Passeth Understanding, but the public commonly called it Grief—an appellation that Henry Adams apparently disliked. In a letter addressed to Homer Saint-Gaudens,(Augustus' son?) on January 24, 1908, Adams instructed him:
"Do not allow the world to tag my figure with a name! Every magazine writer wants to label it as some American patent medicine for popular consumption—Grief, Despair, Pear's Soap, or Macy's Mens' Suits Made to Measure. Your father meant it to ask a question, not to give an answer; and the man who answers will be damned to eternity like the men who answered the Sphinx."
If you ever go to see this work...be forewarned that it is not easy to find. It is right next to St Paul's Church in the cemetery - Section E. But unless you know what you are looking for - you'll NEVER find it. It is in it's own 15 square foot plot...completely surrounded by evergreens...with a little opening to enter the area. I read that in a guide book. There was NO ONE in the old cemetery today when I found the opening, climbed some steps and there to my right - was she!
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/Summer%202014%20148.JPG)
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I wish I could express the shocking sensation at seeing her sitting there silently in the empty section of the empty cemetery.. It was beyond the excitement of seeing something created so long ago by the man we are reading about now. It was more a shock coming face to face with one's own mortality and and the hereafter.
There were two more steps up so that you could climb up and touch the arm, the finely sculpted face. It was an unexpected experience.
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/Summer%202014%20149.JPG) (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/Summer%202014%20150.JPG)
The oddest thing - Henry Adams meant this to be a memorial to his wife, Clover - and yet, there was no inscription, no name, no dates - absolutely nothing to indicate whose grave site it was - or who was the artist, the sculptor...and yet the piece is so distinctive, there can be no doubt it is Saint-Gaudens'.
More on the memorial -
"Henry] Adams, who steadfastly refused to discuss his wife's death, commissioned Augustus Saint-Gaudens to create a memorial that would express the Buddhist idea of nirvana, a state of being beyond joy and sorrow. In Adams's circle of artists and writers, the old Christian certainties seemed inadequate after the violence of the Civil War, the industrialization of America, and Darwin's theories of evolution. Saint-Gaudens's ambiguous figure reflects the search for new insights into the mysteries of life and death. The shrouded being is neither male nor female, neither triumphant nor downcast. Its message is inscrutable."
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Thank you JoanP, those pictures are wonderful.
JoanK, how wonderful for you to have met the Admiral. I always had the impression she was very small in stature, is that so? So smart and so far ahead of her time. COBOL, another POSITIVE thing we can thank the military for inventing.
Jean
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WOW! Thank you, JoanP, for posting those splendid photos. I can only barely imagine the impact of seeing it. I agree, "Grief" isn't an appropriate word. There is sadness, thoughtfulness, peace, but not grief as such.
It would have been worth all those years of carving cameos just to produce this, even if he had never done anything else.
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To me the statue reminds me of the weight of grief - after the initial grief - the only gesture that brings it from that dark place is the arm going up with the hand clutching the hood of the cape.
I am reminded of Stoicism -
The central demand of Stoicism is that we ought to live according to nature - that's the stick. The pay off for living according to nature is contentment, happiness, joy, tranquility, and serenity - that's the carrot.
It's a tasty carrot because these benefits are not postponed. We get to be happy now by living according to nature now.
The rules of engagement in Stoicism are not readily apparent to the casual eye. We are easily deceived. This deception is embedded in the popular conception that happiness and joy come to us from service to the self: we are happy when we service our need for pleasure and when we find ways to duck pain. ...most of modern culture revolves around minimizing pain and maximizing pleasure.
The Stoic knows these to be false paths - false because pleasure and pain are body focused experiences.
The Stoic knows that the locus of our existence resides not in the frail ephemeral body but in the mind and it is only in the mind that we can find a salutary route and meaningful existence.
Quote from Zeno the founder of Stoicism in 300 BC
The unreflective person thinks of himself as an independent unit in this world, complete in himself. His own private good is the criterion for every choice he has to make. But true wisdom begins when the individual reckons himself a fragment, a part of a perfect whole, the universe. He is under obligation to make the reason at the heart of things his own standard of behavior.
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JOANP - I truly wish I had never seen that sculpture, it is so very sad, I can see grief, despair, alsmost tears coursing the face. That was a memorial to his wife? Why the hidden face, the blinded eyes (seems so to me), nothing to indicate she was a good wife, a good woman. I think it is a beautifully sad remembrance.
And the Shaw Memorial, also thrilling, terrible, awful, men going to war. I do not have enough words to describe how effective/affective (?) these statutes are. Even if I could afford them, I would not want them in my garden to gaze at every day, would you?
The Lincoln statute, Gus did, I like very well, I'll take that one!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Saint-Gaudens#/image/File:Lincoln_The_Man.JPG
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Another book I have never read is Mark Twain's INNOCENTS ABROAD. if so I think I would remember it. "Paris "flashed upon us a splendid meteor," Twain wrote.
Americans flocked to Paris in 1867 for the Great Exposition, some brought their art which was disappointing to the Parisians - "infantile arrogance" - "childish arrogance;" however, they liked the money the Americans spent. Of course, of course. Has the attitude changed much?
Hold on! The French financed the Suez Canal? I must read more about this.
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I like the Lincoln statue too. Saint-Gaudens saw Lincoln once, riding through the streets in a carriage, seeming, with his height, "entirely out of proportion" to the carriage, then saw again when he was lying in state in New York. "He had waited hours in an 'interminable' line, and after seeing Lincoln's face, he went back to the end of the line to go through a second time."
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JOANP: you certainly have a way with a camera. Thank you for that journey closer and closer. Undoubtedly a great statue.
We may be going to meet henry Adams who commissioned it later in the book? At least his picture is in it. Meanwhile, we have a new unforgettable character waiting for us in this next section.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about. When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes." Goodreads review
"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14 |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1); Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre (http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/)
Some Topics for Discussion
Aug. 11 - 17
Part III ~ Chapter 9 ~ Under Siege
1. How would you characterize Elihu Washburne? What actions of his particularly impressed you? What in his background do you think influenced him to act as he did?
2. What are some of the hardships you read about that moved you which were experienced by various parts of the population in Paris during the siege?
3. How did most of Paris react during the siege? Did anything surprise you?
4. What are some of the medical issues that you noted in this chapter?
5. What other topics in this chapter do you find important or interesting?
Part III ~ Chapter 10. Madness
1. Were you surprised that the German forces marched through Paris but only occupied it for 48 hours?
2. What details do you know about the Paris Commune?
3. Again, Washburne plays a significant role in trying to help the Archbishop and others. What is his reaction to the fighting and destruction?
Part III ~ Chapter 11. Paris Again
1. We're reintroduced to Henry James, who speaks perfect French like only some of the Americans who come to Paris to study and work. What do you know about Henry James and his writing?
2. Who are some of the artists mentioned in this chapter that you know about or would like to learn more about?
3. How would you compare the two painters, Mary Cassatt and John Singer Sargent, who are prominent in this chapter? How were their lives and work similar, and how were they different?
4. Who or what else impressed you in this chapter?
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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Ella - I felt the same way...the Saint-Gaudens figure seemed so abandoned and alone in that empty cemetery, "STOICALLY"...as Barb sees it.
I read somewhere that her husband, Henry Adams, is buried here with her. It's difficult to say - there are no markers to indicate who is buried there. There is an office on the grounds...not open on Saturdays. I could try to call tomorrow to see if he is buried there too.
There has been considerable interest as to why she committed suicide and why her husband buried her in this way. There were many such deaths in Clover's family. There was talk at the time that she was depressed because he had a roving eye for a younger woman. I hope to hear more of him in future chapters.
The important thing here is Adams' choice of Saint-Gaudens' work to commemorate her death, I think.
JoanK - I have to admit I was so drawn to the "Grief" figure, that I had to climb the steps and stroke her arm - and then her face, as if to console her. While up so close, I thought to photograph that face. I hated to leave her alone like that...
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'...the shocking sensation at seeing her sitting there silently...coming face to face with one's own mortality and the hereafter.'
How wonderful of you, JoanP, to drive down to Rock Creek cemetery and come back with your pictures and your impression. And it was your impression and your response that the artist was aiming for. It will be different for everyone.
I've found several other responses to this masterpiece. From two who knew Clover well, and were good friends of Henry Adams and his wife. John Hay, the Lincoln staffer, had this to say:
'It is full of poetry and suggestion. Infinite wisdom, a past without beginning and a future without end, a repose, after limitless experience, a peace to which nothing matters - all are embodied in this austere and beautiful face and form.'
And good friend, Clarence King, replied to Hay:
'Would it were not so appropriate, alas, that there is not a ray of faith, not a throb of hope in that gaze. The tangled complexity of modern emotions, of unilluminated doubt, of icy courage play over its nervous features. It is utter restlessness in complete repose. As if the poor woman was sitting there sheltering herself in the folds of her own shroud, trembling perplexed and tortured over the fate of her own shroud.'
I was reminded immediately of John Donne's, shrouded effigy in St Paul's, London, which has no mystery at all in it. I believe I'm going to get in my car and find more of the Saint's monuments. And find his studio in New Hampshire. Why did this artist who had grown up in New York, and lived so many years in Paris, choose this New England location? He had just got a commission to do a Lincoln, and heard there were many Lincoln types up there to serve as models.
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We were typing together, Jonathan- do we still call it typing? What perfect interpretations of this inscrutable demeaner!
I don't know about you, but I'm having a difficult time keeping up with the time frame- like how much time goes by between the French Emperor, Louis NapoleonIII's illness, his defeat on the battlefield against the superior German Army the fall of his Second Empire...and the birth of the Third Republic?
How can the Parisians rejoice and just forget the Prussians are coming, the Prussians are coming? Makes no sense to me! The Americans in Paris seem to understand the danger and are leaving...with a few exceptions.
No Pat, I wouldn't have stayed...would you?
Why are the Prussians coming?...I just have to ask!
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Hold on! The French financed the Suez Canal? I must read more about this.
Indeed they did. The British only bought in later. It was a tremendous advance for rapid transportation, not to have to sail around Africa. The American transcontinental railroad was finished then too, leading Jules Verne to speculate that one might go round the world in as little as 80 days. After he wrote Around the World in 80 Days, the American woman journalist Nellie Bly tried it, and did it in 72 days. She was quite a remarkable person:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nellie_Bly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nellie_Bly)
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JoanP, I have difficulty with the time line too, partly because McCullough shifts back and forth as he follows one person or phenomenon at a time. Napoleon III was already ill when war was declared, and got worse as he fought with his troops. France declared war in July, 1870. Napoleon was overwhelmingly defeated and captured on Sept. 2. The news reached Paris on the 3rd, whereupon the Empire collapsed, and the Third Republic was declared on the 4th. Fast work. Of course the war was far from over, as we'll learn.
The Empress Eugénie fled to the dentist friend, Dr. Thomas Evans, who, at considerable personal risk, smuggled her to safety in England.
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Knowing more about Prussia and what happened earlier centuries between Prussia and France I thought was helpful - this is a synopsis showing Prussia to have a warrior history and reputation for war.
The name Prussia is derived from people called Prussi, or Borussi. They were related to the Lithuanians. The Saxons, a Teutonic people, entered eastern Europe in the 10th century and failed in their attempts to convert the Prussians to Christianity. The Christian faith was not established until the middle of the 13th century when the Teutonic Knights, a military religious order, conquered the land and subdued the country. Prussians were exterminated. The Knights affected the Germanization of Prussia by bringing German and Dutch settlers into the conquered territory. By the end of the century the region was completely subjugated. Thereafter it was ruled by the Teutonic Knights as a papal fief.
During the 15th century, the Knights were driven out and many of the Prussian lands were brought under Polish rule.
Prussia in its modern meaning came into existence only in 1701, when the elector of Brandenburg assumed the title "king in Prussia." The margraviate of Brandenburg was created when the Holy Roman Empire conquered the area in the 12th century. Through the secularization (1525) of the domain of the Teutonic Order by the grand master Albert of Brandenburg, the domain became a hereditary duchy under Polish suzerainty. During the Protestant Reformation in the early to mid 1500s most Prussians convert to Protestantism whereas Poland remained, and still remains, solidly Roman Catholic. In 1525 Ducal Prussia became a hereditary duchy under Albrecht Hohenzollern, the last grand master of the Teutonic Knights.
The new dignity achieved By the Kings of Prussia in 1701 is by the reforms undertaken by Frederick William, elector of Brandenburg from 1640, known as "the Great Elector". He establishes a permanent system of taxation, removing from the estates general their main source of power; and he spends a large slice of the resulting revenue on a standing army. This combination of an absolute monarch with a large and efficient army becomes characteristic of Prussia. By the time of the Great Elector's grandson, King Frederick William I, the Prussian army amounts to 80,000 men, consisting of 4% of the population.
Napoleon’s successes were beneficial for Prussia. Prussia remained neutral but friendly towards France. The redrawing of the map over Germany meant that several smaller principalities, imperial cities, and church lands were confiscated and redistributed primarily to the medium-sized principalities…and Kleve was exchanged for Hanover, which Napoleon had occupied. This brought Prussia into a conflict with Great Britain whose king was also elector of Hanover. He responded ordering the British Navy to sink most of Prussia’s merchant fleet.
1806 is the darkest year in Prussia’s history. After Napoleon had forced the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire, Prussia became an independent state. But when France promised to return Hanover to the British king in exchange for peace, Friedrich Wilhelm III (1797-1840) made the fatal decision to declare war against France.
The Prussian army was crushed and French troops occupied most of Prussia. It was only pressure from Russia that prevented Napoleon to dissolve the Prussian State altogether. When peace was concluded in 1807, Prussia was reduced to a second rate nation. When Napoleon’s Russian campaign ended in disaster 1812 Prussia joined France’s enemies and its status as great power was restored at the Congress of Vienna… The German Confederation was created at the same time as a replacement for the dissolved Holy Roman Empire, this institution would be more and more regarded only as temporary solution. Germany’s unification dominated the next half century.
Prussian Dominance in Germany
After the Congress of Vienna, Prussia emerged as the major German power of Western Europe. By 1844 almost all German states were economically linked with Prussia. Under King William I and his prime minister and imperial chancellor, Prince Otto von Bismarck, Prussia became the largest kingdom of the German Empire, containing two-thirds of the German population.
Supremacy of Prussia
In 1861, William I (regent since 1858) became king, and in 1862 he appointed, as premier, Otto von Bismarck who directed the destiny of Prussia and (after 1871) of Germany, until 1890. Bismarck eliminated Austria from German affairs and the union of Germany under Prussian hegemony with three deliberately planned wars.
- The first war (1864); fought in alliance with Austria against Denmark over Schleswig-Holstein.
- the Austro-Prussian War of 1866: The 1864 settlement furnished a pretext in which Prussia quickly and thoroughly defeated Austria and its allies gaining additional territory by the annexation of Hanover, Electoral Hesse, Nassau, Schleswig-Holstein, and the free city of Frankfurt am Main. The German Confederation was dissolved and the Prussian-led North German Confederation took its place.
- Finally, in the Franco-Prussian War (1870–71), the North German Confederation overwhelmed France, and, in 1871, William I of Prussia was proclaimed emperor of Germany.
The feud over Schleswig-Holstein’s future proved hard to solve. Austria offered Holstein in exchange for territory in Silesia, but Bismarck, refused that offer. Instead, Prussia resumed the old issue of Germany’s unification, which the German princes then voted down. When the German Confederation took side with Austria, Prussia declared its secession from the Confederation whereby war became unavoidable. Prussia conquered vast territories, and the German Confederation was dissolved replaced by the North German Confederation that was completely dominated by Prussia, leaving out Austria and the southern German states.
France’s emperor, Napoleon III, disapproved of Prussia’s growth of power. He considered a unified Germany as a great threat to France but the war of 1866 ended before he could intervene. Napoleon III was determined to repair his mistake and in 1870 he used an insignificant diplomatic dispute as pretext to declare war against Prussia. However, to his surprise, the southern German states joined Prussia and the French army was decisively defeated. At Versailles, the victors declared the unification of Germany with the Prussian king as its emperor (1871). France was forced to cede Alsace-Lorraine, which was to be administrated jointly by the German part-states as an Imperial territory.
After 1871, the history of Prussia is identical with Germany’s since it comprised nearly two thirds of Germany's population and territory and the Prussian king and head of state were also Germany's emperor and chancellor. A major event in German history was the defeat of France in the Franco-Prussian War in 1871, making Germany a world power. It was during this war that, in 1870, Prussian Prime Minister Otto von Bismarck orchestrated the unification of the German states. The German Empire was established under Prussian leadership with Bismarck as Chancellor. Wilhelm II, the last of the Hohenzollern dynasty, became Emperor of Germany (Kaiser) in 1888 and ruled until Germany's defeat in World War I.
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Thanks for that background, Barbara. It's a good lead-in to this next chapter, THE SIEGE. The American diplomatic minister to France, Elihu Washburne, plays a significant role. How would you characterize him? What actions of his particularly impressed you? What in his background do you think influenced him to act as he did? I love the photo of him at http://hd.housedivided.dickinson.edu/node/12280
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Quote from JoanP's post:
'How can the Parisians rejoice and just forget the Prussians are coming, the Prussians are coming? Makes no sense to me! The Americans in Paris seem to understand the danger and are leaving...with a few exceptions.'
Saint-Gaudens seems to have been one of those exceptions. Now where did I read it? His mother pleaded with him. Don't get involved in French politics. He would seem to have aligned himself with the French republicans who felt it was time for a regime change. The Empire would seem to have been a great success, with Paris beautified, and the host of several World Expos. But not everybody was a Bonapartist. Or one with this or that political affiliation. So many rallying cries: Remember '89! '30! 48! Were there some who were hoping for the Emperor's downfall when he took on the Prussians? Even DeGaulle was nervous about being accepted by Paris at he time of its liberation in 1944.
Barb's post gives a good idea of the convolutions of European politics.
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Jonathan, you're right that the politics are convoluted. It's probably fortunate that McCullough doesn't get into the politics very much in this book. It makes it confusing to read about all of the events in this chapter if you don't know the politics/history very well (I don't) but I did find the chapter interesting, especially with its focus on Elihu Washburne.
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The more I read about Elihu, the more impressed I am. He seems so sensible and caring and also a man of action. Apparently a lot of people didn't think he was suited to the role of a diplomat, especially to Paris, but it seems that it's precisely because he wasn't "raised" in diplomatic/bureaucratic ways that he was able to be so effective. What do you think of him?
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I'm every bit as impressed as you are, Marcie. He was also a very honorable, moral man. He would do what was right, no matter how hard. The family struggles when he was growing up, and the good teachings of his parents really prepared him for this effort
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Had you ever heard of Elihu Washburne before reading this section? Don't you wonder how David M. decided which people to focus on...and which to just mention in passing - Mark Twain for example? Not that I'm questioning Elihu Washburne's worthiness...he certainly proved himself during the siege of Paris. David McCullough devotes the entire chapter to him...and to describe what the Parisians endured during this time. I had no idea.
Mr. Washburne did more than protect the remaining Americans during the siege. I was somewhat surprised to read of the numbers of German women, children and elderly depending on the protection of the former American Secretary of State...and now Ambassador to France.
Not to question the fact that his conduct was admirable, but I have to wonder why he decided to stay when he had the opportunity to leave...as most of the ambassadors from other countries did.
Did you miss reading about efforts of the French ministers in Paris at this time?
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So much has been written about the Paris Commune of 1871. Karl Marx, I've heard, made a brilliant little study of it, with lessons for his political agenda. The account of it that we are reading is something special. Be sure to read McCullough's comments introducing source notes for Chapter 9, page 492. He's very pleased to have found new historical material on this defining moment in French history.
Appointed to be Minister to France by President Grant!! What did it take to get that choice appointment? Did Washburne expect to find himself embroiled in this volcanic Parisian scene? I remember Elihu Washburne from reading Team of Rivals, and being amazed at his political activity. It seems to me that it was his concern for the welfare of his fellow citizens that kept him in Paris. His experience of Paris makes for an interesting two chapters. He too was an American in Paris. Why is he never mentioned as 'ambassador'? Always as Minister.
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Why did Washburne stay on when most ministers left? Because he took a strict, literal interpretation of his duty, and would not leave while there were still any Americans who might need his help. He surely couldn't have predicted the mess he landed in, but he was really the right man in the right place at the right time.
One of his biggest accomplishments was the rescuing of many Parisian residents of German origin who, through no fault of their own, were being arrested or forced to leave. Why was this his job? It needed an ambassador of a neutral power, and he was the only one left. But he did a much better job than anyone else would have.
You get a sense in this section that Washburne had a lot of power because of his character. Both sides trusted him. They gave him more privileges and entrusted him with more because they knew he was straightforward, wouldn't double cross anyone.
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Oh, I am so behind in everything due to health matters that will heal in time; meanwhile visits to doctor, etc. Behind in reading our chapters for discussion, but I have read your posts and will be so interested in everything.
I can't believe JONATHAN'S memories of TEAM OF RIVALS (the Doris Kearns Goodwin book we discussed a few years ago) Funny how one book or one or two characters stays with a person for a long time after reading about them. My favorite of all time was John Adams in McCullough's book; I have him pictured in my mind.
I have Goodwin's latest book - THE BULLY PULPIT (Teddy Roosevelt). Have you read it yet, JONATHAN? Shall I recommend it for a future discussion?
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I vaguely knew the name of Washburne, but i don't know why. Just from studying American history, i suppose.
Much of Europe is in turmoil at the time. 1870 was the year Victor Emanuel unified Italy into the nation we know today. I know that because i was astonished in my college European history course that Italy was that young a country. In 1962, it was less than 100 yrs old. I just thought of European nations as being the way i learned them for at least a couple hundred yrs old. When Napoleon III had to leave Rome to protect Paris, it left the Vatican, who was the other power in the area, vulnerable and VE was able to take over that area and ended up making Italy the country we know today.
Jean
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I appreciate everyone's insights and concur with you all about the moral character of Washburne and his decisive, compassionate actions that likely grew from his hard early years. His mother seems to have had every confidence in her sons. I laughed at her statement that no state was big enough to hold any one of her family.
Jonathan, good question about the terms minister and ambassador. I looked up an article in wikipedia and found the following though it doesn't explain why McCullough calls Washburne Minister since Washburne served from 1869 to 1877. Maybe the terms are used interchangeably.
"Historically, officials representing their countries abroad were termed ministers, but this term was also applied to diplomats of the second rank. The Congress of Vienna of 1815 formalized the system of diplomatic rank under international law:
Ambassadors are diplomats of the highest rank, formally representing the head of state, with plenipotentiary powers (i.e. full authority to represent the government). In modern usage, most ambassadors on foreign postings as head of mission carry the full title of Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary. "Ordinary" ambassadors and non-plenipotentiary status are rarely used, although they may be encountered in certain circumstances. The only difference between an extraordinary ambassador and an ordinary ambassador is that while the former's mission is permanent, the latter serves only for a specific purpose."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador
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How did most of Paris react during the siege? Did anything surprise you? I must admit that I'm very confused about the politics and governmental intrigues that are alluded to in Chapters 9 and 10.
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Ella, do take care. Put the book aside until you feel like picking it up again. Reading the posts, inspired by the book is an experience in itself! What a find for the author! It's not surprising that he used the diary entries to communicate the horror of the siege - and the integrity of this unflinching American in Paris at this time.
Jonathan - thank you for pointing out McCullough's source notes on Elihu Washburne's diary on p. 452. I'm marveling ( is that a word?) at this man...and how he rose from that poor farm family in Maine - one of 11 children - on to Harvard Law School! Are we to understand he made it through his mother's efforts? We're told she had little education herself, but had a qUick mind. Was Elihu "homeschooled"? Did you notice that all of his brothers were successful? We're told he grew up reading Shakespeare, Dickens, poetry. This goes to show that there was opportunity to advance at this time - if motivated. Class did not prevent advancement.
Elihu was a bit rough around the edges - we're told he had "no diplomatic experience, no savior-faire" - perhaps this was the reason for his success? He was tuned in to the suffering, the helplessness of the poor who found themselves trapped in Paris at the time.
TWO MILLION PEOPLE TRAPPED in Paris!
"How did most of Paris react during the siege?" An interesting question, Marcie! I think we need to consider who remained, who were unable to escape, who chose not to get out when they still could. I imagine different groups reacted differently~
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My memory isn't as good as Jonathan's. I won't easily forget Team of Rivals--it was the first book discussion I ever helped lead, under Ella's expert tutelage--but Washburne didn't stick in my mind. I won't ever forget him now, though.
McCullough seems to have two requisites for the people he concentrates on: they have to inspire his interest, and there has to be plenty of material about them. Washburne wins on both of these.
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JoanP, it does seem that Elihu Washburne and his siblings were greatly influenced by their mother. As a young man, he spent some of his money on private education and took it upon himself to go to the library where he read Shakespeare, Dickens and poetry. He and his siblings had a "just do it" attitude.
I was surprised at the reaction of many of the Paris natives to the siege (in Chapter 9). They seemed to mostly take it in stride and continue with their promenades and zest for life.
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McCullough used the plentiful material (his diaries, his book, correspodence) on Washburne for Chapters 9 and 10 (see source notes).
I add my admiration of the man to the above posts. Coming from a hardscabble childhood in Maine, one is reminded of Abraham Lincoln in many ways.
One of my sisters married into a family from Germany who had immigrated to Maine. They had a huge house with barn attached - a usual way of building a barn. The winters are long and the continual buildup of snow makes this an excellent decision as the farmer need not plow his way to feed and care for his livestock. The parents still spoke German (I don't know which part, there must have been numerous dialects as Germany so recently unified into one country.
I was very impressed by the outdoor hospital tent for the wounded and how it was heated in the winter.
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Ella, we are all wishing you back in good health, and, yes, the John Adams discussion has remained my favorite as well. I'm in the middle of THE BULLY PULPIT and really enjoying it. I would love to see it proposed for discussion.
There is so much to acknowledge and reply to in all your posts. Here's one thing from JoanP the other day:
'Don't you wonder how David M. decided which people to focus on...and which to just mention in passing - Mark Twain for example?'
There's nothing to wonder about, Joan. Unless one wants to wonder why Mark Twain had nothing to say about Paris. Well, very little. Mostly his surprise that the natives couldn't understand his French when he dropped in to see the exhibition in 1867, did not like the French and left for Turkey and points East after only a day or two in Paris. McCullough was looking for those who left a record of their Paris experience. He certainly found one in Washburne and the others.
Thanks, Marcie, for the information on diplomatic rankings. Interesting, isn't it. We're told the diplomatic corps in Paris left with the Thiers government when they left town and hunkered down in the Versailles area jut outside Paris. Washburne stayed behind and kept a record. How thoughtful. I would like to learn more about the American field hospital set up across the street from the Thomas Evans mansion. Staffed, no doubt, by many who had come through the Civil War only a few years earlier.
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JOANP: "I don't know about you, but I'm having a difficult time keeping up with the time frame."
I agree. I'm finding this fast movement through history makes me a little dizzy. Two weeks ago, we were with Morse, getting the first idea for the telegraph. Now in this section, people are so used to messages whizzing back and forth across the Atlantic, that it is a hardship when that's cut off.
The history is crazy: I agree with JoanP that it's too hard to keep up with it. I can understand why the Prussians came, but why did they leave? Probably they knew they didn't have the forces to occupy the whole country, so used Paris as a bargaining chip to get Alcace-Lorraine, which they could control?
And the famous commune had nothing to do with communal ideas? Did Marx know that?
In each of these changes, DM talks as if changing a few men at the head was changing the government of the whole country. but what was happening in the rest of France? My guess is not much: there wasn't time for country-wide changes.
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It looks like this war, declared by France, was great for Prussia. BARB's quote says Bismarck used the war to unify a bunch of small states into Germany and become a major power.
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Yes I could use another day or two to get caught up - almost finished with Chapter 8 but cannot get back to it till tomorrow night.
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It's hard to keep track of the timeline because DMc doesn't give us the year dates very often. I found that was true in The Great Bridge also.
On pg. 295, the menu for Washburne's Christmas dinner included "green corn." Does anyone know what that is?
Jean
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Not sure how green corn was prepared as a food for humans - what I know about green corn is that it is essentially colorless and therefore, called green - usually grown for fodder it is planted so tightly with no room to mature compared to sweet corn - the close planting means the stalks are not nearly as tall - today the entire plant is pulled for fodder where as in years past the husks were stripped and stalks were bound to dry just like hay - the kernels are small, rather than large as field corn grown for fodder.
Green corn kernels contain a soft mash rather than the hard dry kernel of typical field or cow corn which is left longer in the ground. Sometimes the stalks were plowed back into the earth to aerates the soil and provides nutrition - today there are sacks of prepared fertilizer or liquid sprayed by low flying small planes or even placed in center pivot irrigation systems -
Cows improved their milk quota eating green corn. Kids would nab some of the green corn just before harvest - it was not sweet but a pleasant soft chew. Have not gotten to where this is in the book - there may be other cues - it could also be giving adult guests a taste of a childhood memory.
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I thought it might be what i know as field corn. My sister and BIL owned a dairy farm and they planted sweet corn and field corn. Sweet corn for us humans and field corn for hogs and cows and fodder.
Jean
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Ella, it does seem that Washburne has a prominent role in this book due, not only to his moral character and actions but also because he kept such a detailed diary.
Jean, I think you have pinpointed one source of confusion for me. McCullough provides few dates!
Ella and Jonathan, I too would like to know more about the American "field hospital." I can envision a PBS dramatic series based on the technical and medical advances they brought as well as the human drama.
JoanK, I appreciate you sharing your theory about why the Germans left after only 48 hours. You say, "I can understand why the Prussians came, but why did they leave? Probably they knew they didn't have the forces to occupy the whole country, so used Paris as a bargaining chip to get Alcace-Lorraine, which they could control?" That sounds likely. I couldn't figure out why they marched through and then left the citizens to themselves.
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Interesting to see how people were getting out of Paris - the Americans who successfully escaped in the basket of a hot air balloon! - while the Germans were firing up at them from the ground! Didn't Gambetta escape that way too? A miracle!
Then there was the American med student - Mary Putnam, who chose to stay behind and study for her degree in medicine, while tending to the sick and the wounded! She was one of those who was dismayed at the surrender. Thought it was unnecessary, as did the poor and "liberal left."
The terms of surrender really didn't affect them much, did it? The war indemnity of 5 billion francs would come from other coffers, don't you think?
I think what the Prussians really wanted was the Alsace-Lorraine territory - sitting right on the border between France and Germany. And they got it! We'll hear more about the struggle for this area shortly. My ancestors go back to Strasberg, the capital of Alsace. It's funny. Some of them spoke German (as did my grandmother's family) - and many spoke French - depending on when they were born and who was in control at the time. Today, French is the official language, though many speak German.
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGLH2g-BSDjBye303P_EsrsSvFhjEM-Duk-D1SlEsu2IwCzaFc)
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JoanP, yes the escapes by hot air balloon were fascinating. While the American minister to France, Washburne, stayed in Paris, the Interior Minister Léon Gambetta escaped. When I read that, I thought that the people would think him a coward but McCullough says that there were cheering crowds below. And a webstie site says:
The success of Gambetta’s escape gave a huge morale boost to those who remained trapped. After a bumpy landing, the Minister managed to jump onto a train headed for Tours, where he released a homing pigeon to take news of his success to the anxiously waiting city. Thereafter an extensive programme of siege breaking began, with the use of improvised balloons and homing pigeons, which greatly aided military communications.
http://www.bonjourparis.com/story/siege-paris-how-inventive-parisians-outfoxed-pruss/
Thanks, JoanP, for the info and map of Alsace-Lorraine.
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Do any of you know much about the Paris commune? From Washburne's point of view they seemed ruthless.
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This is the first time I've ever looked upon the Commune as "ruthless"...still am not sure how to view these poor and starving captives in the city of Paris.
Washburne's letters home are sincere and heartfelt. I'm inclined to believe his viewpoint from the inside.
Here's some Wiki explanations which may help...
"Of the two million people in Paris in 1869, according to the official census, there were about 500,000 industrial workers, or fifteen percent of all the industrial workers in France, plus another three to four hundred thousand workers in other enterprises. Only about 40,000 were employed in factories and large enterprises; most were employed in small workshops and businesses making clothing and textiles, furniture, and in construction. There were also 115,000 servants and 45,000 concierges. In addition to the native French population, there were about one hundred thousand immigrant workers and political refugees, the largest number being from Italy and Poland.[6]
During the war and the siege of Paris, a large number of the middle class and upper class Parisians departed the city, and at the same time there was an influx of refugees from parts of France occupied by the Germans. The working class and immigrants were the sections of the population that suffered the most from the lack of industrial activity caused by the war and the long siege of Paris, and they were the basis of the popular support for the Commune
The Commune resulted in part from growing discontent among the Paris workers.
Many Parisians, especially workers and the lower-middle classes, supported a democratic republic. A specific demand was that Paris should be self-governing with its own elected council, something enjoyed by smaller French towns but denied to Paris by a national government wary of the capital's unruly populace. They also wanted a more "just", if not necessarily socialist, way of managing the economy, summed up in the popular appeal for "la république démocratique et sociale!" ("the democratic and social republic!")."
I can certainly sense the frustration and desire for a voice in their government but the anarchy and lack of leadership seem destined for failure...and violence. Elihu Washburne seems acutely aware of this, yet continues to work for a solution...or at least he tries to look out for the victims. Makes me proud to be an American...but not an American of French ancestry
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Oh, JoanP don't be so hard on your ancestry. Every single one of us has ancestors from a country or group that at some point behaved badly. That's history! Maybe i could say "that's humanity!"
Jean
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MADNESS is what it was - about 1870, don't you think?
First the Commune killing priests and executing hundreds of others, including children, and then the Versailles troops fighting back killing hundreds more. - even the Seine ran red with blood from the killing.
The Times of London declared "Paris, the Paris of civilization, is no more....Dust and ashes....smolder and stench are all that remain.
But Paris would not die - the hidden Venus de Milo was recovered and returned to the LOUVRE. I wonder if the secret passages still exist.
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Thanks for those kind words, Jean!
Ella...they almost burned the Louvre too...did you read that?
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Yes, I read that, but it was saved,
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Page128 - "the U.S. Legation alone remained in Paris throughout the siege and the fearful scenes of the Commune of 1870 and 1871."
We have a timeline there.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! "In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13
Week 7- Aug. 25 - 31 ~ Part III/ Chapter 14, Epilogue |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1); Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre (http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/)
Some Topics for Discussion
Aug. 18 - 24
Part III ~ Chapter 12 ~ The Farragut
1. Were you surprised that Augustus Saint-Gaudens' submission for a statue of Charles Sumner was rejected? Are you curious to know who won the competition and the controversy surrounding the choice?
2. What did you learn of Saint-Gaudens and his work on the statue of the Civil War Admiral Farragut? What was significant about this statue? (Does this chapter seem to be narrated by Augusta Saint-Gaudens, the sculptor's wife?)
3. Gus Saint-Gaudens' Farragut was said to have been influenced by Donatello's St. George he saw in Florence. Can you find it?
4. The American artists, John Singer Sargent and Gus Saint-Gaudens were said to have admired one another and socialized in Paris. The American colony was not that large. Was Mary Cassatt part of their circle of friends?
5. How was the Farragut statue received on both sides of the Atlantic - compared to Saint-Gaudens' Adams Memorial? Was the name Stanford White familiar to you before his work with Saint-Gaudens on the pedestal of this statue?
Part III ~ Chapter 13. Genius in Abundance
1. Who are the "geniuses" of whom McCullough writes in this chapter?
2. Which of the American painters distinguished themselves in Paris after the Prussian War?
3. What did the Americans, Mary Cassatt and John Singer Sargent have in common? How were they different?
4. How do these two famous paintings of John Singer Sargent compare? El Jaleo (http://www.jssgallery.org/Paintings/El_Jaleo.jpg) and Daughters of Edward Darley Boit (http://mfas3.s3.amazonaws.com/objects/SC123932.jpg) Sargent became obsessed with doing a portrait of Mme. Virginia Gatreau - Parisian beauty born in New Orleans. Did he succeed? How was it received?
5. What was the purpose of the 1889 Exposition in Paris? Were you surprised at the public's response to the just completed Eiffel Tower?
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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That would have been Elihu Washburne and his staff, Ella. I wonder how many of the legation stayed behind with him? How brave of him to keep up his diary throughout. And he was ill too.
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Seems to me the impatience for the commune was not too dissimilar to Watts Los Angeles 1965 and like Ferguson until the officialdom yesterday, showed solidarity with the people and sent away the SWAT teams with their war arms.
There were so many influences that are hard for us to relate to - The poor used to be able to turn to the church for protection and assistance - not only was the church under siege by those, like Victor Hugo, who wanted a change in government and they did not want a resurrection of a monarchy that included as part of the ruling body the church, but like the police in Ferguson, the church denied their association with the people and was instrumental in the downfall of the poor leading up to these events. Since many were not citizens they really needed the protection that the Cathedrals offered in the past as a place of safe haven. With none of the traditional safeties available and no direction but only feeling oppressed it is no wonder they stormed and raised the level of chaos and destruction. Too bad the beautiful buildings of Paris became the target of their frustration and oppression but when things are at that level there is no rational only destroy destroy destroy.
Do not have the quote correct but Dumas said something to the affect - give the workers of Paris a match and they will set fire to France. This from Dumas 50 years earlier.
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The author must have been delighted to find Washburne's journal, and made splendid use of it to get him around this dreadful event of the Paris Commune. Paris has a history of violence. Didn't we read about it almost immediately with the revolution of 1830, with 3000 dead in the streets?
Perhaps it all started with the ST. Bartholomew's Day massacre in 1572. Terrible! Found at http://www.reformation.org/bart.html
'August 24, 1572, was the date of the infamous St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in France. On that day, over 400 years ago, began one of the most horrifying holocausts in history. The glorious Reformation, begun in Germany on October 31, 1517, had spread to France—and was joyfully received. A great change had come over the people as industry and learning began to flourish, and so rapidly did the Truth spread that over a third of the population embraced the Reformed Christian Faith.
However, alarm bells began to ring at the Vatican! France was her eldest daughter and main pillar—the chief source of money and power. . . . King Pepin of the Franks (the father of Charlemagne) had given the Papal States to the Pope almost 1000 years earlier. Almost half the real estate in the country was owned by the clergy.
Meanwhile, back in Paris, the King of France and his Court spent their time drinking, reveling and carousing. The Court spiritual adviser—a Jesuit priest— urged them to massacre the Protestants—as penance for their many sins! To catch the Christians off-guard every token of peace, friendship, and ecumenical good will was offered.
Suddenly—and without warning—the devilish work commenced. Beginning at Paris, the French soldiers and the Roman Catholic clergy fell upon the unarmed people, and blood flowed like a river throughout the entire country. Men, women, and children fell in heaps before the mobs and the bloodthirsty troops. In one week, almost 100,100 Protestants perished. The rivers of France were so filled with corpses that for many months no fish were eaten. In the valley of the Loire, wolves came down from the hills to feel upon the decaying bodies of Frenchmen. The list of massacres was as endless as the list of the dead!
Many were imprisoned—many sent as slaves to row the King's ships—and some were able to escape to other countries. . . . The massacres continued for centuries. The best and brightest people fled to Germany, Switzerland, England, Ireland and eventually America and brought their incomparable manufacturing skills with them. . . . France was ruined. . . . Wars, famine, disease and poverty finally led to the French Revolution—the Guillotine—the Reign of Terror—the fall of the Roman Catholic Monarchy—atheism—communism etc., etc.'
I remember learning about this when we read and discussed Gordon Liddy's book WILL Years ago. Liddy was jailed for his part in Watergate. In prison he found himself among mobsters. As part of his prison routine Liddy treated his fellow prisoners to some history lessons. To something they could appreciate and learn from. And here was Catherine de Medici concocting and carrying out a rub out all her enemies at once plan by bringing them together in one place. For a banquet, I think it was.
Is there anyone prouder of his nationality than a Frenchman?
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Thank you for all of the insights here. It does seem that the lack of leadership -- or more to the point -- the actions of people such as the chief of police, Raoul Rigault, added the "mob" element to the actions of people who had felt powerless for a long time.
The contemplated burning of the Louvre, which was open to all of the "common people," was part of the "madness" as several of you have indicated.
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That's Catherine de Medici, in black, in the midst of all the carnage. An amazing woman and queen. And mother of three kings!
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Wow thanks Jonathan you did go back further and really nailed it - I was only reading about what started the 30 years war which, except for its name I knew nothing about and it too was a religious war - cannot believe 30 years of war starts over 5 priests being thrown out of a window to their death -
It's easy seeing how France was the extension of Rome and then easily continued its partnership with the Vatican which we forget, at this time the Vatican took in a land area of about a third of what is now Italy. Part of Italy becoming a nation was their fight with the Vatican.
Those in Gaul always prided themselves in being a direct outreach of Rome and thus the Vatican where as, the Germanic people were scattered tribes and until Charlemagne a loosely organized part of Europe that included what the church called pagans in addition to a few areas that had converted.
Now I need to read more about the St. Bartholomew Day massacre - I have read little about the entanglement of France and the Holy Roman Empire having been devoting much reading to the Germanic connections and learning more about the ancient tribes. I find all this fascinating.
I think what is so difficult for many of us in the America's is to relate to over a 1000 years of history that still creeps into Europe's everyday viewpoints and knee jerk reactions.
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Interesting juxtaposition of events from you all..........
Irish/Scotch-Irish/Reformation/Vatican power/1870 Unification of Italy against Vatican/Franco-Prussian War/Paris Commune/Puritans/NRA/Vatican conspiracy to take over the US/ Ferguson, Mo/armed to the teeth govt agencies v citizens. Issues never seem to change much, no matter how far back in history we go. I guess we're back to that one word POWER: who has it and who wants it.
Jean
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Jean watching the Musical of Victor Hugo's Notre Dame de Paris it is easy to see today sharp and prophetic - Hugo wrote this as a story that takes place in 1462 or 93 when all over Europe Gypsies were given a small amount of money and told to leave within hours of their receiving the money - many flee to Paris although France was attempting to rid itself of Gypsies - and yes, the story is a love story of sorts but it is also showing the Catholic Church as the oppressor and the knight or in the musical an officer in the army of noble birth - think musketeers or later the Corp that surrounded and kept safe the King therefore, in Hugo's story, noble like a knight the soldier represents the monarchy. He also reacts with anger and brutality when his quest for power is at odds with his vows to his fleur-de-lye, his future wife. Both the knight and the priest are torn between vows and lust for power represented in Esmeralda - the only one who loves is the untouchable, deformed Quasimodo.
The musical eliminates many of the characters in the book but the essentials are all there including a great scene between the playwright, poet, philosopher and the priest where they talk about change because of the Gutenberg press, Luther writing a Bible, the split of everything that was known with the new - could be today with the World Wide Web, reaches of science and again, the split between the traditions like the Cathedrals embraced by conservatives versus, the unknown and change of morality typical of a new viewpoint.
Enjoy - the music will stay with you - seeing Garou as Quasimodo without makeup - he is one good looking man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-E7WDcya8Y
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JONATHAN, thanks for the history; I would love to know more but perhaps we can take only a bit of that horrifying history at a time. And BARBARA and the rest of you I'm enjoying this discussion very much.
And the music, BARBARA, those voices! Thank you.
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Yes, thank you all very much for the history and for that moving music. This discussion is richer for the contributions of everyone's knowledge and perspectives.
Maybe we should turn to Chapter 11. Paris is "Paris again" and artists and others from America are drawn to the city that is quickly restoring itself to its former glory. In turn, the American's spending is helping to support Paris. We're reintroduced to Henry James, who speaks perfect French as only some of the Americans do who come to Paris to study and work. What do you know about Henry James and his writing?
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We also meet, or meet again, several American painters in this chapter. There is quite a bit about Mary Cassatt and John Singer Sargent. There is lots we can talk about and learn.
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Openbooks - free books to read or borrow - has several ebooks on Mary Cassatt
https://openlibrary.org/search?q=Mary+cassatt
Also Henry James
https://openlibrary.org/search?q=Henry+james
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Isn't it funny how related things just pop up out of nowhere during these book discussions? This morning, I finished listening to the the musical of Victor Hugo's Notre Dame de Paris (Thanks for that, Barb!) ... snapped the leash on my pup and went for our morning walk trying to remember when and IF I ever read Hugo's story. I must have - the names of the characters are all so familiar. I made a mental note to include the title on my TBR pile - assume it's available electronically. In English, Hugo's book is known as "The Hunchback of Notre Dame." You probably know this.
Okay, we're walking along - about three blocks from my house - and there is the little lending Library a neighbor has constructed - right on the sidewalk...I had my cell phone with me - decided to snap a picture, because this was so serrendipitous...
Here's the little library - really little -
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/Library.jpg)
And just in case you can't make out the titles of the books behind the little glass door, I took a close-up -
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/Victor%20Hugo.jpg)
Now I have NO excuse not to read the book - before I return it!
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Thank you for that link to the Henry James' novels, Jean. Isn't it amazing that we can read his many works at will, just by a click of a button?
I found a link of what someone has chosen as his top novels. How many have you read?
1. The Portrait of a Lady (1881) - When James began this book he was a promising young writer with a special line in depicting the lives of Americans in Europe. When he finished it he had become a figure in the history of the novel itself. This story of a young American woman in England and Italy—of her stifling marriage and her desperate fight for freedom—stands as a link between two centuries. It’s the bridge on which the loose expansive Victorian novel flowed over into the formal concentration of modernism; the link, say, between George Eliot and Virginia Woolf.
2. The Golden Bowl (1904) - Sure, it’s hard, and you’ll feel proud of yourself when you finish. It’s meant to be hard, because James’ characters are all trying to figure out what the others know about a situation that none of them can quite bring him or herself to name. Maggie Verver’s best friend is sleeping with her husband; the best friend who has also just married her fabulously rich widowed father. Watching Maggie awake into a pained consciousness of the world around her—well, it’s like an enormous wave that grows and grows and never quite breaks.
3. “The Aspern Papers” (1888) - Lies and secrets, Venice and treachery. An old woman guards a clutch of love letters from a long-dead poet; an editor wants them and will do almost anything to get them. James wrote many stories about writers and artists, and thought so hard about the relation of art and life that he burned many of his own letters and hoped that he would have no biographer. This story will make anybody who does write about him wonder about the claims of privacy and the inevitability of betrayal.
4. What Maisie Knew (1897) - One reviewer said this novel was fully as indecent as if it had been written in French. It’s the first important novel in English to turn on a child custody case, and more timely now than ever. This family is blended in all the wrong ways, and little Maisie—whose age is never specified—has to puzzle it all out.
5. The Ambassadors (1903) - James’ own favorite among his works, and a book consciously based upon a cliché, the old idea that as soon as an American arrives in Paris his whole set of moral beliefs and practices will immediately fall to pieces. Yet suppose it’s all for the best? For with Puritanism in tatters, just think about the possibilities for growth and change…
6. Washington Square (1880) - Set in New York at right about the time of James’s own birth in 1843, this short novel describes a provincial city that didn’t yet reach much north of 14th Street. His prose was never more epigrammatically brilliant than in this book about a stubborn daughter and a pigheaded father. My students always love it, and they immediately get its point—so now I’m waiting to see what my own daughter thinks about it.
7. The Bostonians (1886) - Any good liberal—and James was one—who has ever chafed at the excesses of his or her own side will love the satire of this book’s opening chapters, which take on the whole of New England’s reforming spirit. (But Boston wasn’t ready to be laughed at; the book bombed.) A more enduring strength is its treatment of gender roles in post-Civil War America, and especially its account of what came to be known as a “Boston marriage”: the domestic partnership of two educated women, where our knowledge stops at the shut door of their room.
8. “Daisy Miller” (1878) - The story that made James’ reputation, the tale of an impossibly well-dressed American girl and her adventures in Europe. Look at her, taking a moonlight walk with an Italian in the Colosseum. Is she “fast” or just badly brought-up? Readers argued about her over the dinner table and in the pages of America’s magazines alike, and in the end Daisy is killed by bad manners. Only they aren’t her own.
9. “The Turn of the Screw” (1898) - The longest and greatest and scariest of James’ ghost stories. An isolated house, a high-strung governess, two charming children, and two dead servants. I’ve never forgotten reading it for the first time on a November midnight—when the ghost appeared I really did jump up from my chair. Read it once, and then read it again and see if you think it’s still the same story.
10. The Tragic Muse (1890) - I know, I know—for this last one I should pick an undisputed classic like The Wings of the Dove, the third of James’s clutch of late masterpieces, or maybe “The Beast in the Jungle,” his great tale of a blighted heart. But I’m fond of this underrated novel, James’s most thoroughly English book. Usually he shunned the multi-plotted novels of his Victorian peers. Here he pays them tribute instead, setting one narrative line in the world of the theater, and the other in British parliamentary politics. Each of them turns on the question of vocation, and neither of them really ends happily. James’s first readers always complained about that with him, but today it’s just one of the many things that makes him seem our contemporary.
Henry James...so closely associated with the Adams family about whom we were talking last week - Henry and Clover Adams.
"Clover, who has been cited as the inspiration for writer Henry James's Daisy Miller (1878) and The Portrait of a Lady (1881), was married to writer Henry Adams. After her suicide, he commissioned the famous Adams Memorial, which features an enigmatic androgynous bronze sculpture by Augustus Saint-Gaudens, to stand at the site of her, and his, grave.
I think I'm going to read Portrait of a Lady and Daisy Miller - just to get to know Clover better!
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Wow - gold mine this morning - books galore - Henry James - yep read a lot of ol' Henry but a few I have not read include: The Aspern Papers, The Bostonians, Turn of the Screw, The Beast in the Jungle and The Tragic Muse - I think I will include in my TBR pile the last two but the first three I just as soon skip - I know Turn of the Screw was a well accepted movie but to me there are enough things to be frightened over and issues that sound too much like greed make my skin crawl as to the attitudes of folks about two women - well what's new - enough is enough. - The Beast in the Jungle sounds like so many who put on hold their life, not necessarily from fear of fate but then, maybe so - the fear of not doing the 'right' thing or doing the prudent thing.
What a nice neighborhood lending library - I have seen them as free books to take but not as a library with the concept of returning the book - neat...
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I'm just starting on chap.11 and will comment later on Henry James.
But,
I've been reading coverage of the Civil War and how Great Britian and France supported the Confederacy by trading arms and heavy ships for raw cotton to support their cotton industries which were suffering due to the Union's blockade of the many ports belonging to the Confederacy. At one time, GB ships loaded with arms landed on a GB controlled island and the trading for cotton continued.
http://mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us/articles/291/cotton-and-the-civil-war (http://mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us/articles/291/cotton-and-the-civil-war)
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JOANP: I love your neighborhood library! I think I read Hunchback as a child, but need to look at it again
I took one graduate course in literature, in which we discussed the American literature of the period, including James. I remember being terribly impressed by "The Golden Bowl" (terribly dense and symbolic: wouldn't have understood a word without a professor), but don't remember any details.
"Portrait of a Lady" was more straight-forward reading: the only thing I remember from it fifty years later is (as I said in an earlier post) the contrast between the Boston upper class and a romanticized "natural man," (presumably based on a romantic notion of Western pioneers.
It was a time when that contrast existed in American society (Wallace Stegner captures it in his historical novel about the period, "Angle of Repose.") America was both at that time, an established society in the East, trying to emulate the culture of Europe, and still a frontier in the parts of West, with everything in between.
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Weren't you surprised at how quickly Paris rebuilt and restored herself? I was surprised how quickly the Americans sailed back into the city - not at all affected by the Prussian victory! Did everyone assume the Prussians were gone for good?
Lots to talk about in Chapter 11 - but would like to comment on Annie's post regarding the French and British sympathies for the South during the Civil War. I remember how stunned you were, Annie. You're right about the cotton - and the slaves necessary to produce the cotton. I found this article that might be of interest...
"The Second French Empire remained officially neutral throughout the American Civil War and never recognized the Confederate States of America. The United States had warned that recognition meant war. France was reluctant to act alone without British collaboration, and the British rejected intervention. Emperor Napoleon III realized that a war with the U.S. without allies "would spell disaster" for France. However, the textile industry needed cotton, and Napoleon III had imperial ambitions in Mexico which could be greatly aided by the Confederacy.
The 22 political newspapers in Paris reflected the range of French public opinion. Their position on the War was determined by their political values regarding democracy, Napoleon III, and their prediction of the ultimate outcome. Issues such as slavery, the Trent affair (which involved Britain), and the economic impact on the French cotton industry did not influence the editors; instead their positions on the war determined their responses to these issues. The Confederacy was supported by Conservative supporters of Napoleon III, Bourbon legitimists, and Roman Catholic interests. The Union had the support of republicans and Orléanists (who wanted Louis Philippe on the throne).[2]
Between 1861 and 1865, the Union blockade cut off most cotton supplies to French textile mills, causing the "famine du coton" (cotton famine). Mills in Alsace, Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Normandy saw prices of cotton double by 1862 and were forced to lay off many workers. As a result, many French industrialists and politicians were rather favorable to a quick Southern victory.
The American war was a minor issue at a time when France was engaged in multiple diplomatic endeavors in Europe and around the world. Emperor Napoléon III was interested in Central America (trade and plans of a transoceanic canal). He knew the United States strongly opposed (and the Confederacy tolerated) his plan to create a new empire in Mexico, where his troops landed in December 1861
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Civil_War
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JoanP, What a wonderful idea ... your neighbors lending library. You must live in a very safe area!
Thank you all for the links to Henry James' writing. I see that there are quite a few novels of his I don't recall reading. Thanks also, Jean, for the ebooks on Mary Cassatt.
I too was very surprised at how quickly much of Paris was restored. It was interesting that the commerce of Americans visiting Paris contributed so much to their economy. JoanP, I too noted the politics of Franco-American relations at the time. You quoted: "The Confederacy was supported by Conservative supporters of Napoleon III, Bourbon legitimists, and Roman Catholic interests. The Union had the support of republicans and Orléanists (who wanted Louis Philippe on the throne)."
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I wondered who paid for the reconstruction, was it state or private monies? DMc made no comment about that.
Where did all the feelings that going to Europe was good for your health come from? Was it a rationalization for going? They weren't going for professional medical help, or not that i noticed. Wasn't the city of Paris as unhealthy as American cities?
And I'm with Grant, how could the Sargents and the Cassatts and apparently many others just do nothing? I would go bonkers. I'm sometimes going bonkers just because of retirement, but still have some worthwhile activities to work on. They would be much more confined then i am. It seems the Sargents didn't socialize, or talk to hardly anybody else, especially those not of their class!! :-[
I guess i would not be a good member of the leisure class. ;D I'd need a lot of prozac, or something. Maybe that's why there was so much drinking. Altho DMc doesn't mention that too often. I would enjoy the leisure of sitting in the cafes and having some good coffee, wine and/or conversation for about three months and then i'd need a project!
Jean
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As a woman during this time running a household would be like running a small business - today we have machines - then there was help to contend with - to teach, to set standards for their performance, to oversee - think for a small household Mathew's mother in Downton - Arranging a dinner party would be more involved than today arranging a ball - everything is made from scratch and there is no one store to get all your supplies - as hostess there would be flowers to arrange, not purchased already arranged, there would be the semi-annual laundress so your clothing would have to be planned - a seamstress makes the clothing - department stores were just coming into being but they still did not sell clothing off the rack.
I am remembering years back when my children were young and we still sewed and during my childhood you were never sick in bed playing, you were expected to knit socks or darn holes in socks and stockings and mom made all our clothes including underwear.
Sunday dinner would be several dishes each with their own china and cutlery and more than one kind of wine with each wine having its own glass for each table setting. Table clothes were hand washed, ironed and STARCHED - remember making starch on the stove - and water for the wash would be heated on the stove or in a boiler above the coal stove - no piped in gas or electric stoves and no electric irons. Newspapers were not home delivered - music meant someone had to practice an instrument - and everyone had to look their part - remember the movie Gigi -
And so either there was wealth enough to afford hiring enough household help that a woman traditionally over saw and therefore, you were a CEO of a small company even in an apartment or you were doing some of this yourself. Part of your day or at least week was learning what was happening which you had to go out to meet others to keep abreast of the news.
My guess is the health improvements had to do with spas - the water at a spa was the thing to drink and bath in - and then most cities in the US took their drinking water from a local lake or river with all the contamination - Since the commune destruction there were fountains built all over Paris using underground piping so the poor especially were not having to buy water from vendors who took the water from the Seine where the sewers were emptied - which suggests the water was cleaner than in most cities of the US. Also the first sanatoriums were built in Europe, usually in a forest or mountain setting with extensive gardens surrounding the buildings. They became a model for the US which only showed at that time they're health care was advanced.
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After the two or more chapters about Paris and its wars - post chaos coming back to personalities almost feels like name dropping.
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Right you are, BARBARA! Henry James described the changes in Paris as "amazing elasticity."
Paris liked the Americans coming over as it helped their economy ("the trade of Paris is now mainly sustained by American visitors who spend more money among the shopkeepers than all the rest put together...we only wish there were more of them.") and they admired our republican form of government. "Indeed, one group....conceived the idea of creating an unprecedented gift from France to the United States."
A colossal monument called LIBERTY LIGHTING THE WORLD was planned and it is still lighting the world welcoming all; even when they become a burden such as that on our Mexican border
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The painting by Victor Dargaud (illustration in book) of the Statue of Liberty rising over Paris certainly shows the size of the statue. It always brings a few tears to my eyes when I see it, much as the National Anthem does. Why is that? Patriotism? Pride? History? Realizing the sacrifices of so many for our country? Probably all of that and more.
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Fun facts: Height of the Statue of Liberty in feet - 305
Eiffel Tower - 986 feet
Empire State Building - 1250 feet
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Ella, thanks for reminding us that the Statue of Liberty was brought up in this chapter and for those statistics. The creation of it shows the close relationship America had with France... or some Frenchmen had with some Americans. I'm wondering when that changed. We are, of course, allies but don't seem as close as we are with Great Britain.
Thanks too, Jean, for bringing up the then prevalent idea that Americans would go to Europe for their health. It is an interesting notion.
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I keep forgetting to voice my thought that the Louvre must have a guardian angel. It 's been so close to possible destruction so many times in its life and has been saved each time.
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Ella - how many people in the United States do you think still look upon Lady Liberty with such nostaligia and pride? I grew up in New Jersey right across from Bedloe's Island - it was always a favorite spot to take visitors to the East Coast. And they were always moved as you were!
The siege of Paris under the Commune government had lasting effects. Thank heaven the Louvre wasn't destroyed Jean! It was next on the list! It was difficult to believe that the Parisians in Paris thought so little of this treasure that they were ready to destroy it. It goes to show just how high emotions ran against their oppressors. Still have a hard time relating to that! Wouldn't anything or anyone have stopped them, had the Prussians not been declared victors and entered Paris. Thank heaven for the Prussians, right?
Even during the World Wars, the Louvre was spared - these were Parisians ready to destroy their own past!
The Statue of Liberty seems to have been the result of the Franco-Prussian War. Its creator, Frédéric-Auguste Bartholdi's hometown in Alsace, lost independence had just passed into German control in the Franco-Prussian War. These troubles in his ancestral home of Alsace are purported to have further influenced Bartholdi's own great interest in independence, liberty, and self-determination.
It must have cost a mint to design, construct, deconstruct, pack up and send the Statue to New York. I wondered where the funds came from.
Found a little information about this -
"Soon after the establishment of the French Third Republic, the project of building some suitable memorial to show the fraternal feeling existing between the republics of the United States and France was suggested, and in 1874 the Union Franco-Americaine (Franco-American Union) was established by Edouard de Laboulaye. Before starting his commission, Bartholdi had traveled to the United States and personally selected Bedloe's Island in New York Harbor as the site for the statue. The United States agreed to responsibility for funding the building of the pedestal, with about $300,000 being raised. In October 1886, the structure was officially presented both to the nation and to all aspirers to liberty within the world, as the joint gift of the French and American people.
It was rumored in France that the face of the Statue of Liberty was modeled after Bartholdi's mother. In Paris on the Ile aux Cygnes, there is a replica of the Statue of Liberty which faces west supposedly in alignment with the Statue of Liberty in New York."
Here's the painting by Victor Dargaud, which McCullough included in the book - - I suppose this is where it war first assembled in Paris - before beign disassembled and shipped.
(http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/65/6560/51B2100Z/posters/paul-joseph-victor-dargaud-statue-of-liberty-c1884.jpg)
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Looking at the schedule, I see it's time to move on to Chapters Twelve and Thirteen. If you are just catching up - please feel free to share your observations on ANYTHING in these past chapters.
Who are some of the artists mentioned in Chapter XIII you would like to learn more about? Was there anyone else in Chapter XIII that impressed you - beyond the artists? There is so much here! I wonder how long it took David McCullough to research and then to put together this book!
In the next chapter, three artists seem to stand out...but there were many Americans studying and copying in Paris at this time. Do you recognize any - do you have favorites?
The next two chapters will reveal much more about Mary Cassatt and John Singer Sargent. I'm really interested to learn about the relationship of these two Americans in Paris. Sometimes it seems they'd have a lot in common...but then there is those differences!
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There is an artist I'd like to know more about - though he's not one of thKe Americans in Paris at this time. Have you noticed how many references there are to the 17th century artist, Diego Velazquez and his influence on the leading American artists? His "Las Meninas" was mentioned more than once. Can you find it?
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JoanP., I can't believe you have this sweet little neighbor library, for borrowing books. And who would have imagined you would find Hunchback of Notre Dame after deciding to read it some day.
I am so sorry I have not participated much in the discussion. This past 3 months have been a bit challenging with remodeling my bathroom, searching for a new table set and being on overload with my summer daycare. I thought the idea of traveling to Paris with all of you in the book would take the place of NO real vacation for me this summer. If anything it only made me long to be somewhere other than home, picking out a new toilet, vanity, mirror, tub, surround and tile, along with a spa decor to include a calming beach scene. Well, after calling around finding plumbers, ceramic tile installers, paint, drywall, mudding, taping and final touches, my bathroom is now complete! But.....as for reading, I am afraid I have a long way from completing this book. So again....Paris must wait.
I enjoy reading all your posts. So much information! The children all return to school this week, and my daycare will decrease down to only two full time, and two part time children, so I look forward to our next book we begin. Do we know what it will be yet?
Ciao for now~
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Bella - I don't envy you your "bathroom" summer. - though mine is long overdue for an update.
As for "Hunchback" - I have no idea how long I get to check it out of the sweet little library. Someone took a lot of care and time putting it together. "Hunchback" is not easy reading. I'm wondering if it is this particular translation of Victor Hugo's classic... I'm quite sure now that I've never read it before. Unless I read a different translation! Will stick with this one a bit longer to see if I get better at reading it! It's fun to read it though...with the thought that he was a contemporary of the writers and artists we're reading about.
Stick with reading the posts, Bella, as you have been. So much good information here!
Or try skipping ahead to Chapter 13 - the emphasis is on Mary Cassatt, with some in
Formation I know you will find interesting.
ps More votes are coming in with the publication of the Book Bytes and the second vote to break the tie. Still too close to call. Will let you know as soon as we know which book will get our attention in September.
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D Mc talks extensively about st gaudens Farragut. I went looking for a clearer picture then the one he put in the book. I may have found something better as i continued to look - a video from youtube of the three St-G's in NYC.........
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TCmg7RffhKU
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Thanks JoanP. for the heads up on chapter 13, being about Mary Cassatt. After just reading about her in out recent book, I would like to see what Mc has to say about her.
Mable, In the interview Mc did, I think in the headlines above, he talked a lot about how much he loved the many sculptures of St Gaudens Farragut, throughout the cities.
I just may have a little spare time tomorrow since it will be a lighter daycare day. so may try to read chapter 13.
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Thank you for the video of New York and Saint-Gaudens' statue in memory of Admiral Farragut, Jean. I read this was the first to commentate a Civil Was officer. It puts us right into the book's timeline, doesn't it?-Reminding us that our artists have just come from a shattering experience in America, to Paris, just recovering from the siege that nearly destroyed thiis center of art from within.
Gussie Saint-Audens described in such detail her husband's difficulty working with a statue of this size. This, from a man used to working with tiny cameos - relatively speaking. It wasn't Farragut's face that gave him so much trouble though. It was the positioning of the back leg! Why was that?
I remember thinking it was strange we were hearing all this from his wife and not from Saint-Gaudens himself - until I read of a fire that destroyed most of his papers and notebooks...and then this-
"Saint-Gaudens and his wife figure prominently in the 2011 book The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris by historian David McCullough. In interviews upon the book's release McCullough said the letters of Augusta Saint-Gaudens to her friends and family in the United States were among the richest primary sources he discovered in years of research into the lives of the American community in Paris in the late 19th century."
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I had not realized that the Farragut statue was so revolutionary in posing him in everyday clothing and action. We take that for granted now.
I took a second look at his back leg, and thought it seemed a little awkward. But that's probably because I'd read DM. I certainly never would have noticed it ordinarily.
His face is interesting. But on that high base, probably no one sees it.
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what is DM
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Maybe someone should hop a train to New York and climb the pedestal to get a closer picture of Saint-Gaudens' Admiral Farragut! It's up so high it is difficult to see the detail. Here's a model he made for the face...
(http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ap/web-large/DP169676.jpg)
The admiral certainly looks "resolute" doesn't he? "Damn the torpedoes!" This is the work that launched Saint-Audens popularity in the United States.
I agree, Joan K - Saint-Audens' lifelike stance for a statue was an innovation at this time.
(http://www.forgottendelights.com/images/farrwhole.jpg)
More on the statue -
Farragut is depicted in his naval frock coat, facing to the south. He looks as though he could be on the bridge of a ship (and we are assured by a letter to The Times in 1912 that Farragut’s pose is authentic for a seaman and “one of the great merits of this masterpiece”). Farragut has binoculars in his left hand and a gust of wind appears to be turning up the bottom of his coat. He is on top of a broad stone wall that is fairly festooned with bas-relief carvings, including two female figures (that’s Loyalty on the left, and Courage on the right), an unsheathed sword amid ocean waves, and a long-winded and highly stylized (and, err, hard-to-read) inscription.
The statue was the first major public work by Saint-Gaudens. He finished the statue in Paris, and exhibited a version of it at the Paris Salon before it was cast in bronze, by Adolphe Gruet, and sent to New York. The inscription on the left side.
Both sides of the monumental wall are inscribed. On the left side is a dedication to Farragut. It reads:
That the memory of a daring and sagacious commander and gentle great-souled man whose life from childhood was given to his country but who served her supremely in the war for the union MDCCCLXI-MDCCCLXV may be preserved and honored that they they who come after and who will owe him so much may see him as he was seen by friend and foe his countrymen have set this monument A.D. MDCCCLXXXI"
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Other views...do his legs seem further apart in the first one?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Farragut_Mad_Sq_jeh.JPG/640px-Farragut_Mad_Sq_jeh.JPG)
(http://www.forgottendelights.com/images/farrfig.jpg)
Barb...my guess: DM=the author of the book we're reading. :D
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! "In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13
Week 7- Aug. 25 - 31 ~ Part III/ Chapter 14, Epilogue |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1); Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre (http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/)
Some Topics for Discussion
Aug. 25-31
Part III ~ Chapter 14 ~ Au Revoir Paris ~ Epilogue
1. Why do you think David McCullough chose the 1830's to begin his research, and then end with the great Exposition in 1900?
2. Have you ever returned to a place you once visited long ago (not your home town) in search of past memories? What did you find? Who does David McCullough follow back to Paris in his concluding chapter, "Au Revoir Paris?" Why do you think he chose this title?
3. Why does Dr. Oliver Holmes observe that medical students no longer flock to Paris from America as they did 50 years ago? Do art students still fill the ateliers as they once did?
4. Are you familiar with some of the young artists named here - like Maurice Prendergast, John Alexander, Robert Henri? I'd like to learn more of Henry Tanner, the young artist who had expressed concern at the prospect of being the only Black American student in Paris, as he had been in the Academy of Fine Arts in Pennsylvania
5. In 1897 Augustus Saint-Audens returned to Paris after achieving highest honors in American art.
His son Homer insisted it was not illness that brought him back. 10 days later he returned home for good. Why do you think McCullough chooses to concentrate on Saint-Audens?
Epilogue
What was McCullough's purpose of the Epilogue? What did you learn from these concluding paragraphs? What more would you have included here?
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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Saint-Gaudens spent time travelling all over Europe - and copying great artists - sculptors. Here's the result of his time in Florence - (Note the legs!)
(http://florenceinwarandflood.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/saintgeorge.jpg?w=584) Donatello
St. George
c. 1420
Marble
6’5” (1.95 m)
Museo Nazionale del Bargello, Florence
“The legs move, the arms are ready, the head alert, and the whole figure acts; by virtue of the character, the manner and form of the action presents to our eyes a valiant, invincible, and magnanimous soul.” – Francesco Bocchi, sixteenth century.
Don't you love the Internet?
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THANKS, JOANP, for putting the statute online - I love it and the others by Gus. Gus and Gussie, too cute, two artists in Paris.
"Paris was essential to the work, Gus felt, not only because the art current ran stronger there, but because........experenced craftsmen, plaster molders, foundrymen, and the like-were plentiful. "
I was surprised that Stanford White appeared in the book; I also noticed that the base or one of the bases for Gus's statutes were by White. He has appeared before in books I have read - his murder, the trial of the nurderer, all over a lady, such a scandal!
McC has numerous letters to help with this chapter; letters home from Gussie and White. Remember the day when we wrote letters? I kept so many of them, but when I moved they went the way of my "more simplistic life."
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I'm not very fond of the St. George statlute, JOAN. Is that a coat of armor he has on, I've never seen one that covers the front all the way to the legs.
You've asked several times who we would like to know more about, what art we liked best. So it's about time we answered.
The impressionists have always been a favorite form of painting for me. Mary Cassat's paintings; others that I can't remember - Monet?
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Ella - what do YOU think attracted Saint-Gaudens to Donatello's 15th century marble? I see the position of St.George's leg. Is their a hint of movement in the hunk of marble?
Did you read that Saint-Gaudens and Stanford White were good friends - and worked together on the Farragut monument in New York? He did the base, if I remember it right. Curious about what you know about him. Dare I ask? To me, his name is vaguely familiar, but I don't know why...
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Perfect timing, Ella. We're ready to move on to Chapter 13 - featuring John Singer Sargent and Miss Mary Cassatt! I keep waiting for these two American artists to meet in Paris. Maybe now is the time.
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What a journey this has turned out to be. An endless journey. We're being teased into looking for other books on these distinguished Americans who journeyed to Paris. Saint Gaudens has caught my fancy. And so have the others.
Farragut. Sherman. Lincoln. Marian Hooper, aka Clover. Some think the Adams Memorial is Saint Gaudens' masterpiece. I agree. The memorial is a captivating piece of work, but Clover would also have looked splendid on a horse. There is a photograph to prove it, in the possession of the Massachusetts Historical Society. I found it reproduced in The Five of Hearts, a book by Patricia O'Toole. Saint Gaudens must have seen it. It's the same face, on both the memorial and the equestrian. Clover was one of the hearts. The book has this to say about her, and much more:
'Clover also responded intensely to the beauty of flowers...she designed a garden....By planting lilies of the valley and daffodils for early spring, chrysanthemums for fall, and roses that bloomed until Christmas, Clover had flowers for most of the months she and Henry spent in Washington. Each spring she eagerly waited for the capital's magnolias to flower and combed the wilds of Rock Creek Park in search of the first dogwood petals.' p99
His brothers wondered what he saw in her, and Henry Adams replied:
'On coming to know Clover Hooper, I found her so far away superior to any woman I had ever met, that I did not think it worthwhile to resist...the devil and all his imps couldn't resist the fascination of a clever woman who chooses to be loved.'
What a marvellous account of the historian and the sculptor at the Amiens cathedral, with each seeing it for the first time, with the other's eyes.
Perhaps the Adams Memorial belongs in the Louvre. That alone would make a trip to Paris worthwhile.
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"Paris was essential to the work, Gus felt, not only because the art current ran stronger there, but because........experenced craftsmen, plaster molders, foundrymen, and the like-were plentiful. "
Thanks for pointing that out, Ella. I've always thought that it must have taken many craftsmen, artisans and artists to create all the beautiful stuff around Paris, the many monuments.
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Jonathan...is it just me, or do you see DM choosing his own favorites too, as he nears the end of the booK? Saint-Gaudens has to be at the top of his list. John Singer Sargent? Mary Cassatt? Or is he concentrating on these three because they returned to distinguish themselves, AFTER the Franco-Prussian War? Or?
Did you actually find and read O'Toole's Five of Hearts, Jonathan?
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Or maybe it was because he had more letters and other sources to turn to where as many did not leave material or having, years ago helped the son of Claude Monet find a condo in Austin, I learned the family had to develop tight control of his art and notes etc. since they found the most unsavory of businesses using his father's art in their advertizement - nothing is released without permission and usually a fee or there is a court case guaranteed.
And so McCullough may not have been willing to spend the money or he maybe did not get permission for access to written documents for other notables from the time.
I thought it interesting Arianna Huffington on recently interviews said also that she plowed ahead with much derisive, critical scrutiny and little support - sounds like a few of the artists in this book. New ideas must take awhile after unsettling the secure calm comfort of what folks are used to seeing, hearing, reading etc.
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A really good point, Barb ...McCullough made extensive use of the letters and diaries he was able to find...I'm thinking of Gussie Saint-Gaudens' now.
I've been looking for some interaction between the two popular and talented American painters.
Sorry to say...I can't find a single instance where they sat in a cafe...and talked of their art. Nothing. But I did learn more about MaryC and John Singer Sargent in the contrasts McCullough provides...the gregarious, outgoing Singer Sargent...the quiet, private Mary Cassatt, each with a style and subject matter that reflected their personalities. Maybe it isn't so surprising they didn't hang out together
Still I'd love to hear of some interaction between the two. Did you learn anything new of Mary Cassatt in this chapter? Does McCullough refer to the much talked about affair between Mary and Edgar Degas?
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Yes, Farragut's legs do seem further apart, but then the two pics are two different angles.
I was disappointed in chapter 13, there was very little about Mary Cassatt. In the interview I saw prior to reading the book Mc stated he covered a lot of Mary Cassatt in the book. I beg to differ, there is very little.
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Maybe McCullough didn't realize how much his readers already knew of Mary Cassattr, Bella, thinking his readers would be hearing these details about her for the first time. I had always thought of the painter of all those mothers and children as being maternal herself - like Berthe Morisot.
McCullough portrays her as an artist living completely for her art - I know there are no do-overs in life, but can't help thinking of her art, had she had a child of her own. Every once in a while there are indications that she wonders the same thing
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Bellamarie, read the very last section of the epilogue. Mary Cassatt rings down the curtain with her usual indomitable spirit.
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I'm not very fond of the St. George statlute, JOAN. Is that a coat of armor he has on, I've never seen one that covers the front all the way to the legs.
The thing going down to the ground in the statue of Saint George is his shield, with the Cross of Saint George blazoned on it.
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Thanks, Pat! How else would we have known he was Saint George! :D
Was there anything in Chapter 13, that you did learn? I really wasn't surprised that McCullough didn't mention an affair between Mary Cassatt and Degas. After all, it was gossip. There was no diary, no letters to back up the idea. BUT, I was surprised at what I read of James Singer Sargent. This artist, like Mary Cassatt, had never married. Did I read that right? Was McCullough suggesting that he was homosexual? I wonder where that came from.
How about the title of Chapter 13 - "Genius in Abundance"? Who are the "geniuses" of whom McCullough writes in this chapter?
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Ella,thanks for posting that video of Saint-Gaudens' Farragut statue (post 353). It totally changed my opinion of the work. I think the head-on view in the book is absolutely the worst viewing angle. Everything is static--the coat, the stiff face, the pose. But when you see it from different angles, everything changes. The coat is really blowing, and you can see the strength, vigor, and determination of the man.
Also, I thought the pedestal didn't go with the statue, but when you see it from a distance, in the park setting, it does work. And with people in the picture, sitting on the bench, you can see how well the whole thing enhances the public use of the space.
White was known for good design of public spaces--outdoors, or indoor large rooms. He had a feel, in terms of size, traffic flow, and use, of what worked well.
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Yes, I agree, PatH. Somehow the pedestal with its fine artistry doesn't go with tough-looking Farragut. Warships, in bas-relief, in action would have been more suitable. The female forms of Loyalty and Courage with their great artistry are too distracting. And in the background, towering over Farragut's head is Saint-Gaudens' Diana on the Madison Square Garden's tower. Very beautiful, but Dammit, where are the torpedos?
How many Farraguts are there? The feet are definitely farther apart in the two photos you posted, JoanP. And there are other small differnces in detail, even allowing for different camera angles. What strikes me is the different background in every photo. Our book has familiar NY landmarks in the background. The ones above have very ordinary apartment buildings. Notice the different tree growths. I found another photo in the Tharp bio of Saint-Gaudens in which Farragut stands out against an empty sky. Very effective. Awesome. Well, some trees to the side. But lots of empty park space behind the monument. Was that really Madison Square when the monument was put up?
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I'm not sure where we are in the book. I had a bookmark wherein McC writes of the Exposition of 1889, a great success. "the works of art on display........ totaled more than 6,000, making it the largest art exhibit ever assembled in one place......" Imagine hanging all of them. Sargent's THE DAUGHTERS OF EDWARD DARLEY BOIT was included; everyone had an opinion about it:
Here it is?
http://jssgallery.org/paintings/Daughters_of_Edward_Darley_Boit.htm
I love the colors, the depth of the painting; however I think the children are too much alike, have no expression on their faces. It's a bit too "poised."
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"I'm not sure where we are in the book"
Ella, whenever unsure where we are in the book - or the discussion - take a look at the schedule - and questions in the heading. As it turns out, you are exactly where we are in puzzling over the work of John Singer Sargent. There's a link to "the Daughters of Edward Darley Boit" in the heading - and another to his famous "El Jaleo." They are both so different, aren't they? One full of movement and passion, the other...sort of frozen. "expressionless" as you say. They seem to be painted by two different artists, don't they?
(http://www.jssgallery.org/Paintings/El_Jaleo.jpg)
El Jaleo
(http://mfas3.s3.amazonaws.com/objects/SC123932.jpg)
Daughters of Edward Darley Boit
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John Singer Sargent's work - always mixed reviews. He seems to have experimented with different styles...some showed the influence of other artists...others, clearly his own.
One 16the century artist, Velazquez, influenced both Sargent and Mary Cassatt - and others, I'm sure. Here's his "Les Meninas"...Can you see his influence on Sargent in "The Daughters of Edward Darley Boit"?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Las_Meninas_%281656%29%2C_by_Velazquez.jpg/640px-Las_Meninas_%281656%29%2C_by_Velazquez.jpg)
Las Meninas by Velazquez
Can you find Sargent's portait of the beautiful Mme. Gatreau that was met with such controversy at this exposition?
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"How many Farraguts are there?" Jonathan - I read ahead - the concluding pages we'll be discussing starting Monday. I think your question will be answered there!
Have a great weekend everyone!
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Yes, I can, JoanP. The darks, the lights, the expressionless faces.
Thanks for putting them in, they are all quite beautiful, but different.. Sargent's EL JALEO is very different isn't it? ACTION, EXPRESSION, you can almost hear the music.
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I figured out why I thought after the chapters about the uprising in Paris the chapters felt more like name dropping - that is it - the artists are not living among the Bohemian artists of Paris - they are mostly painting studio art because they can afford a room in which to paint - there are no Toulouse-Lautrec nor even a Renior among them - Mary Cassett uses the palate of the open air artists but she is not painting garden scenes - it feels as if they are walled off from the artistic world of Paris and catering to the American dollar to afford their Paris lifestyle. The result, the Americans with dollars are wealthy - not even the upper middle class American that could afford a Parisian jaunt as in the 1920s when literary and musical artists peppered Paris.
There is no talk of Paris Cafes or taking in the life in Montparnasse or the night life in Montmartre much less showing the poor that peopled these areas. No mention of the awful horrific train crash at Gare Montparnasse in 1895 nor the vineyards on the outskirts of Paris. No parks, nothing except studio art as if they have created an island that is not quite American and not quite Parisian but defiantly the trappings of a class structure.
As full of movement and atmosphere in El Jaleo it is not depicting the real atmosphere - it is like a cartoon of reality. Thinking about it the mother/baby and young child relationship that Mary Cassatt paints would be so alien to the French with their tradition of babies being wet nursed, most often in the country with a peasant women while the mother was expected to get her figure back and dress in the latest fashion. And so her paintings were very American - no wonder she did not have the sales that made her famous till well after her death.
Now I am not sure if David McCullough chose to write what made him comfortable or he did not dig or was there no struggling American artists left in Paris living in cheap quarters and rubbing shoulders with the working class at the markets and cafes during the later nineteenth century.
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Hmmm I wonder if it is McCullough's choices that separates these artists from Paris - found these by Sargent that shows a man who did mingle - these are not as dramatic as El Jaleo but they show a freer view of real life.
(http://uploads3.wikiart.org/images/john-singer-sargent/the-sulphur-match-1882.jpg)
(http://uploads8.wikiart.org/images/john-singer-sargent/a-spanish-interior.jpg)
(http://www.canvasreplicas.com/images/Paul%20Helleu%20Sketching%20with%20his%20Wife%20John%20Singer%20Sargent.jpg)
(http://artseverydayliving.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Carnation_Lily_Lily_Rose_John_Singer_Sargent.jpg)
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Can you see his influence on Sargent in "The Daughters of Edward Darley Boit"?
Yes, JoanP, and also in his El Jaleo, with the contrasts between shadow an light. I wonder how the Boit daughter who was in the shadow felt about the painting. No one would really see her.
Barb, I'm glad you included Carnation, Lily, lily, Rose, which has much appeal. And interesting that he would only paint it at dusk.
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Thanks for those paintings, Barbara. They really show the terrific range of his work. Didn't know about the dusk painting...
Isn't the likeness of the two family portraits amazing? You can see the Velazquez influence - those little girls - some looking directly at the painter, others in the shadows. Neither look like the traditional family portrait of the 16th OR the 19th centuries. Don't you wonder how either artist got the girls to pose for any amount of time. It's almost as if they gave up. It's interesting to examples of all of Sargent.
I m managed to find Sargent's most controversial painting...It wasn't easy because he later changed the title to "Madame X" after it's tepid reception at the Salon. Poor Sargent! McCullough writes that he had never known criticism for any of his paintings. After repainting the portrait with a shoulder strap, he decided to leave Paris for London - for good.
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0160/6394/products/GAP5538_grande.jpeg?v=1404658581)
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The last part of chapter 13 takes us to the great Exposition of 1889. This was huge. McCullough tells us that the purpose of this exposition was to celebrate modern progress - as well as celebrate the centennial of the French Revolution. This is a tricky thing to do ...celebrate the past as well as the future, don't you think? Are such grand Expostions still staged? Are they the same thing as what we refer to as the World Fair today? Have you ever been to one? I don't remember anything as overwhelming as the completion of the tower for the 1889 exposition. I can't even imagine Paris without the Eiffel Tower, can you? Weren't you surprised at the number of Parisians who detested it..protested against it. This great Exposition was said to be the biggest and best ever. The attendance exceeded 32 million! Did anything ever surpass it?
Tomorrow we'll move on to Chapter 14, which describes the Exposition of 1900. McCullough seems to have set 1900 as the ending period for his book, leaving me curious about what came next...
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Wow hohoho - back a chapter or two - remember we thought the Germans just up and left - OH NO - in order to get them out of Paris there was a war booty that France had to pay to Germany for loosing the war - my thinking this may have been usual and why the booty Germany was expected to pay after WWI but that is another issue - anyhow - the French were to pay Germany **5** BILLION Franks - an unprecedented sum that represented to France their annual budget for 2 and 1/2 years.
All the citizens of Paris got behind an effort that sounds like buying war bonds - something that involved investing in a loan. Actually it ended up being a good thing for many since the value of money was decreasing rapidly - IN ONE day they floated each investing in a national loan for 2 Billion which got Germany out of Paris leaving German troops with a small footprint till the remaining Debt was paid.
This so uplifted the patriotic fervor of France that they quickly and with a new energy rebuilt. Reading more about the Commune most of the French artists were in between - they agreed with the principles of the commune but felt the Empire or Monarchy was a calmer and more efficient government. They did not like the eruption of chaos created by the commune.
Victor Hugo lived among the poor that the commune represented - he was practically their leader - His parents divorced when he was quite young and he was shunted around from house to house regardless if he was with his father or mother - The father has a child by his mistress and so Mom Hugo left - in his middle childhood his father became a General of Napoleon's army while his mother had been a royalist but without her family's financial support - in his young life he moves between Besançon, Italy, Spain, Paris back and forth from left bank to right bank. Folks like Zola, who wrote a series of 14 novels about a poor family, back off from Hugo as do other artists. During the siege and till the following September Hugo actually fled to Luxemburg. Gives a different slant to his blockbuster book about the war.
Were the Americans just oblivious to all of this - I cannot believe with as many books including this information that McCullough was not aware of what was going on - he certainly devoted a couple of chapters to this time of conflict in the history of Paris - was it that the Americans just did not participate - they came and took what they needed - made their contacts - got their art produced using the best artisans Paris had but ignored supporting France - and the only dip of the hat to the anti Semitic eruption in the book is one statement by one of the artists??!!
It is as if the book was entitled The Greater Artistic Journey - although before the conflict it appeared he wrote of a greater involvement between the Americans and the French.
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BARB: "the Americans just did not participate - they came and took what they needed - made their contacts - got their art produced using the best artisans Paris had but ignored supporting France "
Maybe that's what living abroad does. Being "in" the country, but not "of" it, sort of floating on top of things. When I lived in Israel, I saw some Americans abroad living like that. Many of the people he talks about spoke little French, and probably hung out in little American cliques.
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What's more symbolic of Paris than the Eiffel tower? It was intended to tower over the Exposition of 1889. And then to be dismantled? What a beehive of activity in Paris in those years known as the Belle Epoque. Thanks for pointing that out, JoanP, in your post. But just look at the questions in Barb's posts. In the one preceding it and the one following it:
'Were the Americans just oblivious to all of this?' 'It feels as if they were walled off from the artistic world of Paris.'
It must have been tough to make it all happen in Paris without the Parisians. But it's like Pat said in an early post, the author had to stay focused. And he did it very well. In this book Paris serves as the wallpaper. The Greater Journey is a great example of historical research. A splendid retirement project?
An even better answer, JoanK. I just read it.
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I hear you both - I am being stubborn about how if McCullough included the events of the war and the uprising, taking up almost 3 chapters of his book than why not at least a few sentences about the after life of getting Paris free of Germans and back on its feet with all the patriotic fervor and how the Americans handled it all -
We hear of some returning to find a different Paris but we hear nothing from the current crop of artists having admiration for or mixing with the Parisian artists much less being a part of the every day life in Paris.
E.g. if Parisians were feeling the losses in buying power because of the large drop in the value of a Frank than the Americans would have had to also feel the loss even if it meant more dollars to buy a Frank. No word about conserving because of inflation. Life moves along as if none of this matters.
It just feels so sterile to me - I understand book focus but then why include the uproar of war and its affect but not a word about the city's efforts to rebuild. It is as if McCullough got so caught up with Saint-Gaudens that the book lost its axis which had included names and some description of the French as revered guides or of Paris as a more than a back drop but rather as part of the setting to their daily life.
The most we hear about Paris is the names of streets where artists either lived or had studios. To me it is as if the life went out of the telling - like its time for bed so lets rush through this and only focus on the obstacles, successes and slights for the Americans.
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JoanK, Jonathon, and Barb St.Aubrey, I feel exactly as you are all feeling. I actually got bored with this book because I was so looking forward to learning more about Paris and the interactions of the Americans coming to Paris. Instead I felt bogged down with so many names that it became too confusing for me. Mc seemed to begin to enlighten us of some things going on in Paris at the time, yet falls back to the same people he seems to favor, which is John Singer Sargent, and Saint-Gaudens. Chapter 13 barely touches on Mary Cassatt, and then it goes on and on about Sargent.
I got the impression early on that only the wealthy Americans traveled to France to educate themselves, to promote their own interests and careers, and according to Mc they just did not seem to care to inconvenience themselves to learn the language, history or culture. I personally felt the rich and spoiled are who Mc writes about.
He lost me early on, and as much as I tried to stay with the book, it just couldn't hold my interest. I feel I learned more about Paris when we read "I Always Loved You" rather than this book. With "I Always Loved You, I felt like I was living among the artists, I could be a part of their lives, including the Parisians, the cafes, the museums, the apartments they lived in, and the surroundings outside their studios, I felt like I was sitting and walking among the Parisians in the Tuileries Gardens.
Barb St.A., "Sterile"
is a good description of the feeling of Mc's writing.
Johnathan, "In this book Paris serves as the wallpaper."
Imagine Paris being a wallpaper, when it's one of the most beautiful, shining cities in the world. There is a saying that comes to my mind when I read your statement Jonathan, it comes from the movie "Dirty Dancing" with Patrick Swayze and Jennifer Grey. It is one of the most famous lines of the silver screen but actor Patrick Swayze, who played the handsome dance instructor Johnny Castle in the cult romance 'Dirty Dancing, hated saying 'Nobody puts Baby in a corner'. I say, "Nobody puts Paris as a wallpaper."
Do we know what the next book discussion will be, and when it will begin?
Ciao for now~
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Interesting posts! We seem to have gone from delving into the results of McCullough's research and his discoveries from heretofore unknown information found in private letters and diaries, to feeling let down by what is not included here at the end. I'm wondering what we expected.
Maybe we need to ask - why did David McCullough chose the 1830's to begin his research, and then end with the great Exposition in 1900? If we can figure out why he wrote the book, then maybe we can decide if he succeeded...
ps Another question that keeps running through my mind...regarding Saint-Gaudens- why so much about this artist? Was it because of the biographical information made available in his wife Gussie's letters and diaries? Or does McCullough find him representative of the Americans in Paris during this period? (Remember he is the son of immigrants, certainly not rich and spoiled...)
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Is it McCullough or the Americans - cannot tell but there appears to be a disconnect between those living and working in Paris after the War and uprising as compared to before - there is not much ewing and aweing about the Exposition from the Americans - sounds more like an event they attended and not a seminal Exposition of French and International advancements. Again, I cannot tell if it is what McCullough had to work with or if McCullough was not as all encompassing as in earlier chapters.
One thing may be why he is limited in American's drinking in Paris is there appears to be less of them - the med students no longer flock to Paris and American writers are not to be seen in numbers as after WWI - however, Henry James holds his place in France -
I looked for the high points in American from 1880 - 1900 and this is what I found
1881 Clara Barton organizes the American Red Cross... Harris, Uncle Remus - Helen Hunt Jackson, A Century of Dishonor chronicles the federal government's treatment of Native Americans.
1883 In Boston, a production of Gilbert and Sullivan's Iolanthe is lighted by electric incandescent light bulbs. - Brooklyn Bridge opened to the public... Twain, Life on the Mississippi - E. W. Howe, The Story of a Country Town
1885 Washington Monument dedicated after 36 years of construction... Howells, the Rise of Silas Lapham - Sidney Lanier, Poems
1886 Statue of Liberty dedicated in New York Harbor. Haymarket Riot in Chicago... Alcott, Jo's Boys - Lucretia P. Hale, The Peterkin Papers
1888 Great Blizzard of 1888 paralyzes the east coast and causes 400 deaths... Walt Whitman, November Boughs; Complete Poems and Prose
1889 The first "Oklahoma land rush"... Theodore Roosevelt, The Winning of the West - Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court
1890 Wounded Knee, South Dakota... Emily Dickinson, Poems
1892 Library of Congress says, Telephone service is put into operation between Chicago and New York
1893 Financial panic of 1893, World's Columbian Exhibition opens in Chicago
1894 Coxey's Army, unemployed men, marches on Washington. Kelley's Army, sets out from the West Coast; one of them is Jack London... Twain, Pudd'nhead Wilson - Kate Chopin, Bayou Folk
1896 The first movie shown to the public in New York. The Klondike gold rush...Crane, George's Mother; The Little Regiment and Other Episodes of the American Civil War.
1898 Spanish-American War... Henry James, The Turn of the Screw - Stephen Crane, The Open Boat and Other Tales of Adventure
1899 Scott Joplin publishes the "Maple Leaf Rag," the most famous of his works. Philippine insurrection; Howells and Twain oppose U. S. involvement... Kate Chopin, The Awakening
Interesting for different reasons we too had the poor worker and the out-of-work worker rebelling - we had an exposition, we had a financial crash - Differences - we were still exploring and settling the west and Alaska - we continued to talk and read about the Civil War long after the French put their Wars in their rear view mirror. Probably the difference is in the amount of devastation and deaths.
The Americans in Paris after the 1880 did not seem to arrive with barely enough money to last a year - they all seemed to have achieved some success and most were wealthy enough to afford the luxuries that Paris had to offer which included arranging for family and personal portraits. There was something about their association with Paris that reminded me as an analogy of the Robber Barons back in the U.S. - Taking, from Paris what they needed to be successful but not being a part of Paris or giving back to Paris their praise, gratitude or support.
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I wonder how the Boit daughter who was in the shadow felt about the painting. No one would really see her.
The link to the painting Ella posted in post #378 talks about why he might have painted the daughters this way.
http://jssgallery.org/paintings/Daughters_of_Edward_Darley_Boit.htm (http://jssgallery.org/paintings/Daughters_of_Edward_Darley_Boit.htm)
From the article in the link:
None of the girls ever married, and both Flourennce and Jane, the two rear daughters, became to some extent mentally or emotionally disturbed. Mary Louisa and Julia, the front two girls, remained close as they grew older, and Julia, the youngest, became an accomplished painter in water-colors. (Ormond, P.56)
There was no way John Sargent could have know the psychology or what life held for these children when he painted them in 1882. Could this have been a fluke-- the way they were positioned, the rear daughters detached from us, the one leaning on the vase not even looking at us? Maybe. Was he just lucky? Possibly. But it is my considered opinion that John Singer Sargent's gift of seeing the world was very special.
The writer goes on to say that he feels Sargent had an inarticulate gift for seeing, mostly unconsciously, the psychological truth of his sitters, often showing more than he was aware of himself.
That certainly fits here, the two troubled girls in the shadows, not looking at us, and the one who led the fullest life, little Julia, having her face fully lit.
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And I was going to post that the youngest was the only one showing personality in her face. The other faces are all idealized.
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JoanP had a moment of serendipity finding The Hunchback of Notre Dame in her neighbor's little lending library. I had one too. I spent much of last week in Portland, OR, visiting daughters and grandchildren. One evening Erick (SIL) and Kenner (Erick's stepfather) started a discussion about "King Cotton" and why the South's attempt to use cotton shortage as a weapon failed. I had just read the extensive link Ella posted on this subject, so I was not only able to hold my own, but also contribute facts that Erick and Kenner didn't know (they knew a lot).
No one has ever brought up that subject in conversation with me before, and it happened just when I finally knew something about it. (There was no way they could have known about our discussion.)
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'But coming here has been a wonderful experience, surprising in many respects, one of them being to find how much of an American I am.' Auguste Saint-Gaudens
5. In 1897 Augustus Saint-Audens returned to Paris after achieving highest honors in American art.
His son Homer insisted it was not illness that brought him back. 10 days later he returned home for good. Why do you think McCullough chooses to concentrate on Saint-Audens?
I think it was a good choice. For many reasons. The first would be his work. It's so thoroughly American with its subjects and their many associatians. Everyone has seen one or more of his monuments. The Farragut. The Sherman. The Puritan. The Pilgrim. The Shaw Memorial. The Diana. The Hiawatha. The Adams Memorial. Have you noticed the resemblance between the face in the Adams and the face of the angel in the Shaw? And female faces in one or two other monuments. Obviously it was a face that Saint-Gaudens loved.
So I think the author found more drama in Saint-Gaudens' life than in the others. Or more available information. He perhaps more than the others must have loved Paris. He just had to keep going back. He had found his fountain of youth. And in the end just the sight of the Louvre and the Seine persuaded him to go on living. Born in Ireland, of an Irish mother and a French father, growing up in New York, he was the most American-spirited of them all. But he was obviously a man of many loves. Rodin took his hat off to him. And Saint-Gaudens felt sorry for Rodin's Balzac. A candle going out. The book gets somewhat melodramatic in the end.
And it turns out not all Americans were going to Paris. Not the Connecticut Yankee for one. Quite a list of happenings in America, Barb. I was disappointed too, but I started enjoying the book after I got over the disappointment. Enough to hear that Paris was seductive, without being overwhelmed by its history. We'll have to look elsewhere for that.
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Path - is their a word to describe these little timely coincidences. There ought to be. Until then, we'll just have to settle for serendipity. Can just picture you explaining King Cotton, impressing your relatives. I'm on a little ocean vacation for a view days...intend to struggle through Victor Hugo's Hunchback. Promised self will return it to the little street library box when I return.
Bella - very soon will announce the September book club selection. As you probably know, we've had to vote twice...voted are still coming in. So close, we may have to choose two!
Will let you know as soon a as..
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/greaterjourney/greaterjourneycover.png) |
"Magnifique! "In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review
Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6- Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13
Week 7- Aug. 25 - 31 ~ Part III/ Chapter 14, Epilogue |
Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb Intervew (Books TV) ; (http://www.c-span.org/video/?299417-1/qa-david-mccullough-part-one) David McCullough-Charlie Rose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBl2EfToTCs); Biography - David McCullough (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/mcc2bio-1); Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre (http://faculty.washington.edu/dillon/Morse_Gallery/)
Some Topics for Discussion
Aug. 25-31
Part III ~ Chapter 14 ~ Au Revoir Paris ~ Epilogue
1. Why do you think David McCullough chose the 1830's to begin his research, and then end with the great Exposition in 1900?
2. Have you ever returned to a place you once visited long ago (not your home town) in search of past memories? What did you find? Who does David McCullough follow back to Paris in his concluding chapter, "Au Revoir Paris?" Why do you think he chose this title?
3. Why does Dr. Oliver Holmes observe that medical students no longer flock to Paris from America as they did 50 years ago? Do art students still fill the ateliers as they once did?
4. Are you familiar with some of the young artists named here - like Maurice Prendergast, John Alexander, Robert Henri? I'd like to learn more of Henry Tanner, the young artist who had expressed concern at the prospect of being the only Black American student in Paris, as he had been in the Academy of Fine Arts in Pennsylvania
5. In 1897 Augustus Saint-Audens returned to Paris after achieving highest honors in American art.
His son Homer insisted it was not illness that brought him back. 10 days later he returned home for good. Why do you think McCullough chooses to concentrate on Saint-Audens?
Epilogue
What was McCullough's purpose of the Epilogue? What did you learn from these concluding paragraphs? What more would you have included here?
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), Marcie (marciei@aol.com )
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JoanK, I keep thinking of what you said earlier- in response to Barb's post about Americans In Paris- especially now that we are approaching the end of the century and reading of a different sort of American tourist.
BARB: "the Americans just did not participate - they came and took what they needed - made their contacts - got their art produced using the best artisans Paris had but ignored supporting France
Maybe that's what living abroad does. Being "in" the country, but not "of" it, sort of floating on top of things."
The " Medicals" are no longer flocking to Paris...American medical schools are up to date...thanks to what students in Paris took back earlier in the century. But will artists continue to study in Paris? The light? The Louvre? The presence of so many artists working together?
.
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'But coming here has been a wonderful experience, surprising in many respects, one of them being to find how much of an American I am.' Auguste Saint-Gaudens
Jonathan...a great quote ...do you think this sums up the reason so many American artists went - and still go to Paris to study the great artists in the Louvre...to learn how they compare, how they differ, how America has influenced their perception?
I' ve an idea why Mary Cassatt doesn't fit the description of these artists' experiences McCullough portrays and why he hasn't spent as much time on her work as he does on others.
Notice that Mary is one who never felt the pull to return to America.
For all the reasons you have stated, Jonathan, I can see why Saint- Gaudens was McCullough's obvious choice on which to concentrate. Have you been able to find anything at all about his New Hampshire retreat? Lots to learn there...
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I haven't finished the last chapter yet - love all your quotes. Don't we all feel as Gus did on returning from a trip? On seeing America again and home.
McC seems to be relating to the nostalgia these artists felt or wrote about.. How old is McC? Is he feeling nostalgic? Don't we all? Our youth almost done.....
DID WE LIVE It? (pg.428) "Live all you can. It's a mistake not to........and now I'm old. It's too late. It has gone past me-I've lost it. You have time. You are young. Live." William Dean Howellls.
What kind of advice is that? What does it mean? How is one to understand "Live?"
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Thanks, PatH for reposting Ella's link about Sargent's paintings and the Boit daughters. The link also spoke in depth about his Carnation, Lily, . . . with two other little girls. It's one of my favorites of Sargent's and I'm glad it's considered to be one of his masterpieces.
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For heaven's sake Sargent was an American because his parents were American - he was born in Florance Italy, and grew up in Europe -
"Sargent (1856-1925) was a genuinely international figure. Born of American parents in Florence in 1856, Sargent spent a nomadic childhood before going to Paris to study painting. Later, he established himself in England and the United States as the leading portraitist of the day, and traveled widely in North Africa and the Middle East."
And so he would not have any fond recollections, memories of the US although I did not know he did Murals and did one in Boston. Hmm here I go being picky again but if someone was born and grew up in the US and traveled as a child in this continent to Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas but whose parents came from France I do not think we would say they were French - for that matter Saint- Gaudens parents were immigrants but we do not suggest he is a Scotsmen or an Italian.
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I have to admit I enjoyed chapter 14 Au Revior, Paris! more than any of the chapters in the entire book. It seems Mc got a bit emotional in this last chapter, allowing us to see more of the thoughts and emotions of the people especially with Saint-Gaudens. Mc is using the two names Gus and Gussie to show the intimacy of their relationship, even though we learn of his affair with his model for the nude Diana, Albertina Hulgren, who went by the name Davida Clark, who had Gus's son Louis. It was a bit endearing to read the letter he wrote to Gussie his wife:
"You are a noble woman, Gussie, and I love, admire and respect you more than you have any conception of. We are both sick and for mutual peace of mind on this earth I beg you not to come down from the high place you hold in my heart."
We learn of his bouts of depression and battle with cancer. Mc tells of the struggle Saint-Gaudens had with living in the busy, noisy city in New York and how he bought a home in the country, and returned to Paris in October of 1897. In the late summer of 1898 he writes a letter to Will Low his friend saying:
coming back to Paris had been a "wonderful experience," and surprising in many respects, one of which was "to find how much of an American I am." "I belong in America," he continued, "that is my home... " So much that he found unbearable about New York was exactly what he longed for now. He was unabashedly homesick.
...the elevated road dropping oil and ashes on the idiot below, the cable cars, the telegraph poles, the skyline, and all that have become dear to me, to say nothing of attractive friends, the scenery, the smell of the earth, the peculiar smell of America."
"What a place this is over here, though, seductive as a beautiful woman with her smile. I suppose when I get back, I shall want to return again!"
It seems in my opinion, which isn't all that important, Mc left the best for last. So many times we long to be in a place that we hope to bring peace and tranquility away from our busy lives, and once we travel to that place, near or far from our home, we do come to the conclusion, our home is just that.....the place we want to be, all our familiar sights, sounds and smells. There is no place like home! And yes, in time...we long to go back to a place of peace and tranquility, called vacation.
I had to giggle at Henry Adams's great objection was the number of Americans everywhere, referring to the Exposition Universelle of 1900, the largest world's fair yet.
"All Americans are in Paris," he wrote. "I pass my time hiding from them."
:D :D :D :D
Ciao for now~
P.S. Yes, Ella, I do believe Mc is feeling "nostalgic" in the last chapters of the book. And in doing so it actually captured my interest. I never was a person who cared much for history, I am more about the humanistic side of the story/characters/writer.
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Interesting isn't it how much Saint-Gaudens late in life venture to Paris centered him in how American he felt where as Mary Cassett does not show a pull to return to America as if it were her home but rather is quite content to live out her years in France.
I wonder if in the early years the pull to Paris and its art education was an adventure among friends where as, this time in England the writer could find literary talent - however, I am thinking with the Brits having attempted to Burn down the Capitol in D.C. in 1814 the idea of being among friends, even if the language was less demanding, was fraught with the not too long ago memory of England as our enemy. American literature seems to have grown up on its own with a few who ventured to Paris and the continent where as, much of the American visual arts had its grounding in Paris.
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Interesting, our quintessential western artists Remington and Catlin both studied under men here in the US who were students of the French artists that were included in this book - Catlin studied while in Pennsylvania with Rembrandt Peale, who studied with Jacques-Louis David and Thomas Sully, who first studied with his brother-in-law Jean Belzons (active 1794–1812), a French miniaturist and later Sully was one of the few who chose to study in London rather than Paris with Benjamin West and the portrait artist that had the greatest and lasting influence, Sir Thomas Lawrence. Where as, Remington studied at Yale with John Henry Niemeyer, who studied with Jean-Léon Gérôme and Adolphe Yvon at the École des Beaux Arts, in the studio of Louis Jacquesson de la Chevreuse, and Sebastian Cornu.
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I feel we are gaining a better understanding of McCullough's purpose in writing this book. The man is an historian, though a student at Yale of and with some of the great Fiction writers...He was also was in med school for a while. Will try to find more about that.
But early in his career, he decided on History. I found this...somewhere:
"David McCullough has stressed France’s pre-eminent role in American history for years. We would not, he has argued, have a country without the French, who have permanently and profoundly shaped us."
So it isn't surprising that we continue to find the French influence on Art! Writing, Medicine, Barb. I think this is exactly what McCullough intended to show us in this book.
So why did he decide on this particular period...1830-1900 to report on French influence?
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You asked about McCullough's age, Ella?
"David Gaub McCullough (born July 7, 1933) is an American author, narrator, historian, and lecturer. He is a two-time winner of the Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Award and a recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the United States' highest civilian award."
Nostalgia, Ella? I wonder. McCullough has made so many trips to Paris over the years, staying at the Hotel du Louvre, where so many of those mentioned in this book have stayed.
Maybe he has felt loss each time he returns? He can empathize with Saint-Gaudens, perhaps?
Saint-Gaudens finds his friends have left Paris, or died. No one knows him, he knows no one. He can't find what he was missing in America. He isn't at home here. He realizes his home is in America.
Of course he was .an American - his parents came to America, emigrating when he was two. They became citizens. Their baby too. He grew up in New York, leaving for Paris to study when he was sixteen. Returned as a successful sculptor in New York. Probably more American, (if there is such a thing)- than the famous American painter, John Singer Sargent, born abroad of American parents, grew up in Europe, studied traveled and worked in France, Spain, London, Italy. He came home again too...
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Isn't it curious that Mary Cassatt gets the last word on this journey? Somehow McCullough must have felt he owed her that? And what impression are we left with? At 81. Her visitor recorded:
'Miss Cassatt as usual did the talking. Her mind galloped along....What abysses and reinforcements of courage and life and enthusiasm still lay hidden inside that frail body.'
Is the author saying, I could have told you much more about her?
It's difficult to determine where Saint-Gaudens really felt at home. His place in New Hampshire he called Aspet after his father's birthplace in France. And that's where he died.
Sargent went back to London to die.
And so the story ends. With so much feeling. I'm struck by how much the author himself got caught up in it. And the artists who aroused the greatest feeling in him seem to have been Saint-Gaudens and Mary Cassatt. At 81.
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Jonathan, I was so disappointed in Mc not giving us more on Mary Cassatt. I had no idea there were more than two hundred varieties of chrysanthemums.
"Looked after by a devoted maid-companion, Mathilde Valet, she found her greatest pleasure in her gardens, where she had more than two hundred varieties of chrysanthemums, and in being taken for daily drives in her 1906 Renault Landau."
I'm not sure Mc was telling us he could have told us much more about Mary Cassatt, considering he had this entire book to give us more information and gave so little. If anything I got the impression he was saying, Mary Cassatt had so much more to give...... "hidden in that frail body." It sort of brings me back to Mary's last visit with Degas, and how his eyesight was failing him, and his body was giving out, yet he had so much more to give inside his frail body. It ends on a sad note for me......
Ciao for now~
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Thinking about your disappointment about not finding more information about Mary Cassatt in this book, Bella and the possible reasons David McCullough did not include more - The only thing I could see was that she did not come to Paris to learn more - and take back what she had learned to America. Wasn't that the purpose of his research on the medical students, the artists, the inventors who flocked to Paris at this time - to further their education - who then returned to advance and shape their own culture at home?
I think Mary Cassatt's story, her reasons for not returning to America, is the subject for another book...and not for an historian like David McCullough- simply because there is no solid documentation of why she never returned as other students did. He does recognize her as one who came to study...but her influence on artists in the US at this time seems to be unknown, since she herself did not return. It would be interesting to know when her work became recognized in America.
Just this morning, while doing a search (unsuccessfully) for the name of the medical school McCullough is said to have attended for a while, I was quite excited to find this interview in the Palm Beach News:
"He had three criteria for including individuals in the book. They had to have returned to the United States changed by their experiences in France. They had to have felt a renewed sense of what it meant to be an American. And, they must have kept a diary or written many letters."
- See more at: http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/entertainment/arts-theater/david-mccullough-shares-tales-from-the-greater-j-1/nLjG2/#sthash.J0G0qYdN.dpuf
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So, later in the 19th century, med students are finding schools in the US every bit as good as those in France - thanks to the advances brought back by those who returned form Paris earlier. But the artists continue to come...
Are you familiar with some of the young artists named here - like Maurice Prendergast, John Alexander, Robert Henri? I'd like to learn more of Henry Tanner, the young artist who had expressed concern at the prospect of being the only Black American student in Paris, as he had been in the Academy of Fine Arts in Pennsylvania.
This is not many years into the Post Civil War period. Black students must still be in the minority in the US...but in Paris? Can you find any of Henry Tanner's work?
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JoanP.,
"He had three criteria for including individuals in the book. They had to have returned to the United States changed by their experiences in France. They had to have felt a renewed sense of what it meant to be an American. And, they must have kept a diary or written many letters."
What a perfect find to answer why Mc choose the people he did. My disappointment I suppose came due to the fact I watched his interview before we began reading the book and he made such a point of Mary Cassatt being in his book. So, I was excited because we had just finished "I Always Loved You." I was also excited thinking I would learn more about Paris, and the interaction of the Americans with the Parisians. It seems our Americans chose to keep more to themselves.
Thank you to our discussion leaders, JoanP, PatH, Barb, JoanK, and Marcie, you did a great job! I will leave you with...
"But coming here has been a wonderful experience, surprising in many respects, one of them being to find how much of an American I am."
___AUGUSTUS SAINT-GAUDENS
AU REVOIR, PARIS! or as the Italians would say....
Ciao for now~
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Henry Tanner had an amazing number and variety of paintings. See.....
http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/list.php?m=a&s=du&aid=1900
In one of the seasons of The Cosby Show, there was a Tanner hanging on the wall of the living room set. I'll see if i can find it.
Jean
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Serendipity! David McCullough shows up in my email today, scroll thru the pictures.
https://www.gilderlehrman.org/about/highlights-from-2014-gilder-lehrman-gala
Since i know many of you are history buffs, you may want to scroll down to the story of Laura Bush, on the right side of the page, helping to found the Gilder Lehrman awards for teachers of Am History and watch the video. Yes! How can anyone be a good citizen if they have not had an Am'n History course?
Jean
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I like the Tanner pictures. Most of them are in private hands, but quite a lot of the others are here in town, at the Smithsonian Museum of American Art. I'll have to take a look.
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'I watched his interview before we began reading the book and he made such a point of Mary Cassatt being in his book'
How very interesting to hear that, Bellamarie. I couldn't access that interview. I wish I could have. That, and ending the book with her the way he does, is evidence for me that she was and is a source of inspiration. She must have been on his mind a lot in his researches and while he wondered how to get her into the book. There's a story there. Why don't you write it. There may be a romance in there somewhere. To end the book with Mary still on his mind!! What a pedestal he wrote for her.
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Fabulous article about 1895 France and the Dreyfus Affair - how it affected the French then and on well into the twentieth century
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/09/28/trial-of-the-century
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That is indeed a fabulous article, Barb. It's the clearest explanation I've seen, short of a whole book. I can see why McCullough didn't get into it. It's complicated, and though it tore French society apart, to get so passionate about it, you had to feel more deeply about French affairs than most of the Americans did. (Cassatt felt strongly about it, though. She took the opposite side from Degas, and it strained their friendship.) Also, it happened just in the last few years covered by our book.
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Thanks for the easy-to-understand article on the Dreyfus Affair, Barb. As Path pointed out, it is now easier to understand why David McCullough did not spend more time on it as it occurred in 1895 and his focus went only to the Exposition of 1900. Things seem to be getting clearer as we come to the end.
Jean , thank you for the Gilder link...Laura Bush and David McCullough on the importance of HISTORY. And the links to Henry Tanner - I've just spent over an hour considering the Cosbys' personal collection of African Art - displayed at home and also on the Cosby Show. I learned that three - at least three of Tanner's works were displayed on the TV set. I'm guessing that the one you remember in the hall was
(http://www.themasterpiececards.com/Portals/40667/images/henry-ossawa-tanner-banjo-lesson-resized-600.jpeg)
The Banjo Lesson
Another possibility - also on the set, but where is not clear...
(http://www.themasterpiececards.com/Portals/40667/images/henry-ossawa-tanner-thankful-poor-resized-600.png)
The Thankful Poor
Aren't they wonderful! I just found this...
Tanner was somewhat forgotten in art history for three decades after his death in 1937. The Smithsonian Institution showed his works in 1969 in yet another first for Henry Ossawa Tanner -- the first major solo art exhibition of a black painter in the U. S. In 1991 the Philadelphia Museum of Art hosted a retrospective. With this PAFA show, perhaps Tanner will finally earn his due, recognition as one of the most famous painters of the 20th century, not as a "black" or "African American" painter.
I wish we had time to look into the other American artists who came to Paris from America at the end of the century. I'll bet their stories are captivating too!
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Here's a trivia question. Of whom in the book is it said: 'He was anti-Semitic, though he would get over that with time'? A clue: he also loathed bankers, robber-barrons, and crass, boorish politicians.
And an multi-choice. Who was it, that said 'good Americans go to Paris when they die'?
Thomas Gold Appleton
Oscar Wilde
Mark Twain
Oliver Wendell Holmes
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Jonathan,
'He was anti-Semitic, though he would get over that with time'? A clue: he also loathed bankers, robber-barrons, and crass, boorish politicians.
Answer: Henry Adams , "Later, in a caricature relief, Saint-Gaudens would portray Adams as a porcupine __"Porcupine Poeticus"__ to illustrate the "outward gruffness and inner gentleness" of the man.
It was Appleton who said, "Good Americans when they die go to Paris," the line made famous when quoted by his friend Oliver Wendell Holmes. Of all the Americans who came to Paris in his time, few so enjoyed the city as did Appleton__ or returned so often. Pg. 102
Hmm a bit of a trick question since Holmes quoted Appleton. ;)
Ciao for now~
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My book has been shelved with other McC books and I want to express many, many thanks to our multiple leaders and participants. I have so enjoyed reading and discussing the book, the journey to and from Paris by so many Americans. To think the automobile was a sensaation at the turn of the century and what a horror it is today. We are all in such a hurry to get somewhere and back again.
Did we ever decide why the title of the book?
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It's been fun - though a little overwhelming at times, hasn't it, Ella! Always when we come to the end of a book discussion, there seems to be so much more to say before we turn the lights out!
Now here you are at the end with this question! ;)
"Did we ever decide why the title of the book?"
Maybe we can answer the question about the Epilogue at the same time? The purpose of an epilogue (I looked it up) - "a section or speech at the end of a book or play that serves as a comment on or a conclusion to what has happened."
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris By the time he reached the Epilogue, McCullough had explained more fully the meaning of what he meant by "the greater journey." I thought he started out describing the difficult ocean crossing, adapting to a foreign culture and language. - By the Epilogue, I felt he was commenting on the difficulty of leaving Paris behind. Some never did. Some died there...Mary Cassatt was one of them. Others travelled back and forth, unable to stay away for any length of time. He describes the extremes Saint-Gaudens went through, shipping his huge Sherman statue home to America to work on.
He tells us "John Singer Sargent spent more time in the US at the end of his life - making up for what he had missed in his youth"...working on the murals in the Boston Public Library, among other works. (Here's a peek at these murals still on view today!) John Singer Sargent's murals - Boston (https://www.flickr.com/photos/boston_public_library/sets/72157630936484918/with/7727595008#)
He declined knighthood in England - saying it was impossible because he was an American.
How did you understand the title and the purpose of the Epilogue?
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Well, I want at least one more stroll in the Tuileries before I leave. Here it is in 1900. This isn't by one of our artists, it's by Pisarro, but the year is right, as you can see if you squint hard enough at the lower right corner. I saw it at a special exhibit in Portland when I was there two weeks ago.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1931Tuileries00.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/PatriciaFHighet/media/IMG_1931Tuileries00.jpg.html)
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I thought the arch of the book was an interesting statement - reading the first couple of paragraphs and the last couple in the Epilogue he starts with an air of youthful exuberance that will entail a risky sailing across the ocean, where those making the journey will drink in to bring home learning and culture - then McCullough ends with Mary as an old lady, blind, in bed, who never takes any of her learning back to American with the only shadow sign of the early voyagers is her exuberant chatting with her visitors.
Not sure what that symbolizes but at the time she would have been an unknown here in American - I visited the Blanton this week, the Art museum at UT just to ask when Mary's art became popular - after they called the Art History department to confirm it was not until the Woman's movement in the 1970s that several women were resurrected for their contributions, until that time the light and airy look of her work was considered the hallmark of the likes of Monet, Renoir and Pissaro.
So glad you included the link to the Sargent Mural in the Boston Library - it sounds like you learned he professed to being an American as he aged which IS nice to know because I wondered why he was included given the bench mark set by McCullough. I never looked into his work so this was a joy to explore the range of his palate and subject matter as well as technique. I notice books of his work are priced very high on Amazon.
As usual, we had a good experience reading this book - thanks to everyone we found depths that on our own few of us would explore. This was fun and am I ready for the next weather season although, for us, it will be October before we see consistent temps in the 80s. But the promise is showing and football started this weekend which is more a sign of autumn for us than falling leaves and crisp evenings. This Journey into nineteenth century Paris was a perfect summer excursion. A special thanks to our fearless leader JoanP. You keep making it happen and we appreciate it - thank you.
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PatH - a lovely Pissarro! I've never seen that one. If I had to name my favorite three of the Impressionists, Pissarro would be on that list. I'm certain our American students would have been impressed by his work. You'll remember he was one of the Impressionists who showed in the late 1870's - one of Mary Cassatt's group. He worked with Mary and Degas on the daguerrotypes, I believe.
The EPILOGUE will continue, as the influence of these Americans who studied in Paris goes on. Another little bit of serendipity. I was visiting in North Carolina this past week, opened a newspaper - and there was a full page ad - "We BUY GOLD AND SILVER COINS!" Followed by photographs - of the Saint-Gaudens' Gold Liberty Coin. Isn't this familiar?-
(http://www.cmi-gold-silver.com/media/metalphotos/goldsaintgaudens/goldsaintgaudens-1.jpg)
"In late 1905, President Theodore Roosevelt made known his thoughts that American coins were ugly, and he asked renowned American sculptor Augustus Saint-Gaudens to redesign the $10 Eagle and the $20 Double Eagle (The $20 Liberty-head gold coin). It was Roosevelt’s desire for American coins to be as beautiful as the coins of ancient Greece.
Saint-Gaudens produced not only the venerable coin that is known as the St. Gaudens but also the beautiful Indian Head design, which superseded the Liberty-head design on $10, $5, and $2.50 gold coins. Indian Head coins and St. Gaudens were minted until President Franklin Roosevelt called in gold in 1933.
St. Gaudens gold coins, along with $20 Liberty-head Double Eagles, are the gold coins of choice for telemarketers. Investors new to the gold coin market too often fall for telemarketers’ spiels and pay prices far above the going market for Double Eagles.
Typically, telemarketers will promote PCGS and NGC graded Double Eagles at prices sometimes $200 to $300 above the going market. We have run across instances where unaware buyers have paid double real market prices.
Does this mean that the Saint Gaudens gold coins are never good buys? No, it does not. At times, St. Gaudens gold coins are good investments.
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Barb said it perfectly:
As usual, we had a good experience reading this book - thanks to everyone we found depths that on our own few of us would explore.
I learned so much from this discussion, on a wide range of topics, both from the book and from all the links my fellow readers discovered. I now have a precarious understanding of that segment of French history, a better feel for the Dreyfus affair, know a lot more about some familiar artists and appreciate them better, have met some previously unknown ones, and on and on.
Thank you, JoanP for keeping things going so well, and everyone for contributing so much.
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Thank you, Barbara and PatH!
I'll echo your sentiment - "thanks to everyone we found depths that on our own few of us would explore." It takes a village! Thanks to all of our DLs and thank you all for your many observations and contributions!
We'll leave this discussion open for a few days - for any last minute thoughts. In the meantime, we'll be "downstairs" preparing for September's Book Club discussion...scheduled to begin on September 15. Hopefully you will be able to join us!
Again, thank you!
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Hasn't it been an unusual journey? In every sense of the word. Travelling with a purpose. Through space and time. Exploration and discovery. So much more than just departure, arrival, sojourn and back home again. I seem to hear the author saying: I'll call it The Great Journey. No, I used 'great' for the Bridge, my earlier book, I'll make this one greater.
I am puzzled over what writing this book meant to the author. The 'greater journey' must have meant something to him that we might not be aware of. I've made a small attempt to find allusions to the phrase, with no success.
We never did get to hear what you saw at St. Roch's, JoanP. Or did I miss it?
You've all been wonderful fellow-travellers.
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HAHAHA...no, you didn't miss it, Jonathan~ I couldn't find my etching of St. Roch's, with my Hotel du Londre in the background. You don't miss a thing, do you!
(http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8412474n/f1.highres)
The Journée of 13 Vendémaire, Year 4, The St. Roch Church, Honoré StreetNapoleon Bonaparte quelling of the Royalist revolt, 13 Vendémiaire, in front of the Église Saint-Roch, Saint-Honoré
My hotel is right next door to the church. Our room, when we can get it, is towards the front on the second floor above the cloud of gunpowder.
In the hotel lobby is the engraving you see above.
(5 October 1795 in the French Republican Calendar) is the name given to a battle between the French Revolutionary troops and Royalist forces in the streets of Paris. The battle was largely responsible for the rapid advancement of Republican General Napoleon Bonaparte's career.
It is said that life went on as usual in Paris the next day.
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Extraordinaire!!! 'life went on as usual in Paris the next day.' Only in Paris. And your room took several hits, JoanP. One could come home bragging, I survived in Paris. These actions, after all, were a common occurrence. A royalist revolt? This one seems unusual. I thought all royalists had lost their heads by this time, or were cooling their heels in places like the U.S.A.
'The battle was largely responsible for the rapid advancement of Republican General Napoleon Bonaparte's career.'
Some republican. Only a few years later he crowned himself Emperor. And got other family members onto other European thrones. I believe at the Saint Roch action he was still a lieutenant. I may be wrong.
Thanks for posting that dramatic picture.