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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/baskervilles/Baskervillescvr2.jpg) | The Hound of the
Baskervilles
by
A. Conan Doyle "Sherlock Holmes' most famous case, the Hound of the Baskervilles, was set on foggy Dartmoor, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got much of the inspiration for the book from real-life people and places - as well as folklore.
The first episodes of Sherlock Holmes' best known adventure - were published in The Strand Magazine starting in August 1901." http://classiclit.about.com |
Links:
Free Online Version - The Hound of the Baskervilles (http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/DoyHoun.html)
Official web site ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Literary Estate. (http://www.sherlockholmesonline.org/l)
Sydney Paget Drawings: Archive (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8950/holmes/paget.htm)
The Sherlock Holmes Museum (http://www.sherlock-holmes.co.uk/home.htm)
Schedule:
Jan. 2nd --- Jan. 8th Chapters: 1 -- 5
Jan. 9th --- Jan. 15th Chapters: 6 -- 10
Jan. 16th --- Jan. 22st Chapters 11 -- 15
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/baskervilles/S.HolmesCd.jpg) |
Discussion Leaders: BillH (Leyube@aol.com) and fairanna (fairanna@verizon.net)
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THE HOUND OF THE BASKERVILLES
Welcome friends of CyberSpace and let us cross the moors to Baskerville's Hall but be careful of those treacherous bogs that could drag you down into their depths. But, above all, beware of THE HOUND OF THE BASKERVILLES, perhaps a guide, as in the schedule, will give us safe passage to the mansion.
Every time I think of Sherlock Holmes, Dr. Watson springs to mind. After all, what would a Sherlock Holmes story be without dear Watson. I'm quite sure Sir Arthur Conan Doyle realized, as he continued to write these tales, that Dr. Watson contributed to the success of the novels as much as the detective. I feel Conan Doyle used Watson as a sounding board for his stories the same as Sherlock used Watson to formulate his theories.
Dear readers, discussion leaders, and technicians, if we can get a quorum, we will track the dreadful hound that caused so much trouble to the Baskervilles
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Well after reading the first three chapters I realised why this story always intrigued me....This is the first time I have ever stopped short of finishing reading the whole thing! To me it shows what an excellent author Sir Conan Doyle was and why his books still intrigue after all these years.
I cannot remember how the story ended but I am trying to think what could the HOUND be! A horse was mentioned and so I wonder could it be a horse ? Could it be some insane person who disliked the Baskervilles ?
Any ideas from anyone?
One thing I have always loved about Doyles books was his language, It was very erudite and commanding and written in such a way you kept wanting to read on to the end ...
So shall we look at what we have read and make any guesses , comments, puzzles?
On we go with Sherlock Holmes as he explains his thinking ? his deductions ?
What think you? fairanna
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I would love to join in the discussion. I'm off to the local library today and will pick up a copy of the book.
Brian.
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You couldn't keep me away with an army of hounds. I'll start reading with lunch, and it won't take me too long. I've read the book before, and I agree that Dr. Watson is the key to the storytelling, and Doyle certainly knew how to tell a story properly.
In case there is anyone here who hasn't read the book before, I promise not to reveal plot points ahead of the assignment and spoil it for them.
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It is so good to see you again, Bill and Annafair, and to be off on another book adventure.
I hadn't read very far when I was off and Googling. Why is the walking stick called a Penang Lawyer? This is what I found:
PENANG, LAWYER s. The popular name of a handsome and hard (but sometimes brittle) walking- stick, exported from Penang and Singapore.
It is the stem of a miniature palm (Licuala acutifida, Griffith). The sticks are prepared by scraping the young stem with glass, so as to remove the epidermis and no more. The sticks are then straightened by fire and polished (Balfour). The name is popularly thought to have originated in a jocular supposition that law-suits in Penang were decided by the lex baculina. But there can be little doubt that it is a corruption of some native term, and pinang liyar, ‘wild areca’ [or pinang layor, “fire-dried areca,” which is suggested in N.E.D.], may almost be assumed to be the real name. [Dennys (Descr. Dict. s.v.) says from “Layor, a species of cane furnishing the sticks so named.”
But this is almost certainly wrong.]
1883.—(But the book—an excellent one—is without date—more shame to the Religious Tract Society which publishes it). “Next morning, taking my ‘Penang lawyer’ to defend myself from dogs. …” The following note is added: “A Penang lawyer is a heavy walking-stick, supposed to be so called from its usefulness in settling disputes in Penang.”—Gilmour, Among the Mongols, 14.
You all have hardly unlocked the door and already I've learned something. Welcome back!
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PHYLL: how interesting! Please tell us where the quote is from.
I can't believe that with my love of mysteries, I've never read "Hound". Great to repair that omission with you all.
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I'm sorry. I try to always post the source but I was in too much of a hurry today, I think. Here is the link to the information about the Penang Lawyer:
http://www.bibliomania.com/2/3/260/1283/20162/1/frameset.html
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Brian, you are most welcome to join us in this discussion. I hope you can get the book, however, you can read it on line I'll post a link for the on line read.Thank you.
Phyll, thank you for the expanation and link. It's pick ups on little things that make for a good book discussion.
Pat and JoanK, so good to see you here. I know this is going to be GREAT.
Bill H
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Folks, the following link will take you to a very good on line read of this novel. The font size is excellent with chapters names as a guide.
I have asked Pat to place it in the heading.
Below is the link for this fine read.
THE HOUND OF THE BASKERVILLES (http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/DoyHoun.html)
Bill H
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THANK YOU BILL FOR THE LINK!
I'll try to get it read, at least the first assignment tomorrow or this weekend sometime. I was at the Library today and forgot to pick up a copy. I love mysteries and can't believe I missed this one. It's a classic.
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Ella! So good to see you here. I do hope you enjoy this fiction novel. Is this your first?
Bill H
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I'm a Sherlock Holmes nut, and one of the things I love about the stories is the wealth of detail about life in Victorian England. The Penang Lawyer is a new one for me, thanks, Phyll. Holmes feels free to receive company in his dressing gown, which seems to be a sort of bathrobe, but he must be dressed underneath, since it only takes him a few seconds to be ready to go out. And what is the "varnish" that Sir Henry had to have put on his boots before he could wear them?
Aside from all these trivia, look what a splendid setup we have. A ghastly family legend involving a spectral hound, a mysterious anonymous letter, someone following Sir Henry, etc. and we haven't even gotten to the mysterious moors.
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Hi Bill. No, I read mysteries now and then; although I read nonfiction for the most part and am waiting to open the Nonfiction folder here on our Book site.
I believe I have read this book years ago, but what fun to read it again and I won't say a word about it at all, except to wonder who, what, where, when and why Sir Charles Baskerville was killed.
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Dr James Mortimer, M.RC.S. (Member of the Royal College of Surgeons), calls himself
"Mister" - - - at that time in England, all surgeons were proud to be called Mister to set them apart from the physicians, who were either F.R.C.P. (Fellows of the Royal College of Physicians), or, if they had gained their credentials from a university, M.D. (Doctor of Medicine). Dr Mortimer was not a certified surgeon but a General Practitioner or as we call them nowadays, family physician. A full surgeon would have to attained his F.R.C.S.
Brian.
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Hi Bill & Fairanna- Isn't it great to have a discussion under way. Hope to join in though probably won't contribute much - I'm not really a Sherlock Holmes fan but this is one of the better books about him and his erstwhile companion Dr. Watson. I read it long ago but don't seem to own a copy - will read online until I can get to the library.
PatH mentions the dressing gown - it was the custom for gentlemen relaxing at home to remove their jackets and shoes and replace them with slippers and dressing gown - so they were fully dressed underneath. The dressing gowns were usually heavy silk brocade or something similar. The custom prevailed probably until WWII or later among the upper echelon of British society. The men would relax in their dressing gowns (perhaps with a drink?) and then dress for dinner - much more elegant than sitting around in one's shirtsleeves.
Brian: In Australia, we still refer to our surgeons as 'Mister' and what you term the family physician is still our 'General Practitioner' commonly called the 'GP'.
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Have the book and have watched the movie several times on PBS.
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A few weeks ago I stumbled across the "old" movie of The Hound....., starring Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce. What fun to watch even though it is terribly outdated. The acting in those days was far less subtle than it is in today's films, but vey enjoyable. It's strange but when I picture Sherlock Holmes in my mind he always looks like Basil Rathbone! :)
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"The devil's agents may be of flesh and blood, may they not??" (Chapter Four)
Here is the list of characters I have found, so far, in the story:
Perkins the gardener
Mr. Stapleton, a mutual friend
Mr. Frankland, of Lafter Hall,
Sir Henry, the heir
Perhaps I missed one or two?
In most mysteries, we look for motive!
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Wonderful to see so many posts and such great observations I finished reading chapters 4 and 5 and started on 6...I love all the convoluted thoughts ...I am not sure I can keep them all separated and mull over what I think could be made of the clues...but what fun to try.
Phyll like you I "see" Sherlock Holmes as Basil Rathbone...
I havent seen the movie since I was a young girl. My library may have it but unless it has Closed captioning it wont help me...
I am reading it on line by the way .I am sure the library would have a copy but my left eye which is nearsighted has a cataract and I find print hard to read....my right eye was operated on 20 years ago and the implant was a farsighted one...now my mind has used both so well I have never worn glasses since...and they wouldnt help now but that is what is so wonderful about computers AND discussions..I am elated to be able to be part of a book discussion and such a wonderful one with such special people .
I will not read ahead but will be on tenterhooks until I find out who and why...and I know I will wonder if my guess will be correct ..when I make one...this is the best New Year GIft ..thanks for all the hard work that made it possible and for each of you that make it real and wonderful..fairanna
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Characters: Don't forget the Barrymores, caretaker and housekeeper of Baskerville Hall.
It's very appropriate that we all "see" Holmes as Basil Rathbone, since Rathbone looks a lot like Sidney Paget's drawings.
By the way, Sir Henry is humungously rich. 740,000 pounds would be almost 4 million dollars, and inflation would multiply tthat by at least 10, more likely 20.
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Hi BillH., Fairanna, and everyone else,
I'll be reading along with you.
Evelyn
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What fun!
ELLA : "In most mysteries, we look for motive!"
Motive, means, and opportunity! But those alone don't establish guilt. You need something that links the suspect to the murder, or shows that they are lying -- the famous "clues".
A good mystery writer will give the reader the clues, too, but mixed with "red herrings" meant to send us down false trails. Much of the fun of mysteries for me is this puzzle aspect. Modern writers are often sloppy about this, and have the detective accidently stumble on the murderer. UGH!!
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Hi, Evelyn!
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Brian, yes, as you say surgeons were called "Mister" in England. I believe I read an explanation of that in the Dr. Jekyll and Mister Hyde novel. I'll try and find out more.
Kidsal, welcome to the discussion.
Phyll, try as I might I always picture Holmes as Rathbone and Watson as Nigel Brue. Although Jermey Brett did a good Holmes also.
Ella and PatH, Conan Doyle created mysterious character depth in this novel. I feel this added to the gloomy atmosphere of Doyle's novel.
And, Pat, if I'm not mistaken in those days a British pound was worth about Five dollars in U S currency. And figuring in the humble cost of merchandise and labor in that period in England, as you say, makes our Sir Henry fabulsly wealthy.
I'm always amazed at the size of the mansions or halls built in those days. The cost would probably now make them prohibitive to build. Although Nelson DeMille, in his novel The Gold Coast, does a masterful job of describing the huge, ornate mansions built by the wealthy in the early 1900. The fabled Gold Coast is that stretch on the North Shore of Long Island that once held the greatest concentration of wealth and power
EvelynMC and Gumtree, welcome to the discussion. Seems as though we have quite a group gathering here. So glad you are joining us.
Bill H
1.
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My copy of the novel contains a forward by Bruce Brooks. What follows is an excerpt from that forward:
"The Hound of the Baskervilles" is the perfect mystery, possibly even the perfect novel. From the start it grabs one's full range of feelings and makes everything that happens seem big time. It grabs the mind, too–the story is scary beyond reason, yet tantalizing to the intellect. And the various possible endings to the tale threaten and inspire one's inner sense of justice."....
Folks, as you read the story, would you please express your thoughts as to the above written by Mr. Brooks?
Bill H
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Bill= Brooks couldnt have said it better...almost from the first page it has grabbed my attention....I feel darkly spooky (the same the first time I read it)Doyle fills his pages with possible suspects, motives, hints at dark events My mind keeps trying to struggle with how did it end..since I am refusing to read ahead I am going to feel that way until the end...a rather delicious spookiness...while my mind tries to rescue me while trying to recall the end I am glad it is failing because this is the kind of mystery I have always loved.
I am often disappointed in todays mysteries ...the story is too detailed for my taste I am glad when a mystery keeps me guessing until the last word and I dont wish a blueprint oh how to commit a crime...I want to be kept looking for clues in what the author says so I can say at the end AHA I guessed right or alas he really fooled me....makes me want to read more by the same author...and of course the best part is DISCUSSING it with other readers ....are'nt we lucky? fairanna
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My copy of the Hound ( from our local public library ) has an afterword containing the
same sentiments as those expressed by Bruce Brooks.
It is written by Anne Perry, who is one of the world's most famous mystery writers, and
she says : -
I think it is not only that Hound has all the elements of brilliant storytelling: mystery and
the supernatural, suspense, evil and innocence, intellect, romance, human villainy,
adventure, and the ultimate in terror are woven seamlessly into it. It also has a deeper
symbolism of the elements of life that lie within the experience of all of us. We
recognize them, consciously or not, and take a different kind of pleasure, which can be
repeated over and over again.
Well said both Bruce Brooks and Anne Perry.
Brian.
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I know I posted in one of the "Hound" sites, but apparently it wasn't this one. Is this where the actual book discussion will take place, or do I need to be somewhere else.
As a start, two thoughts were uppermost as I started reading the story again.
First, I feel that Holmes tends to be patronizing toward Watson, and it irritates me. Not only that Holmes does it, but that Watson accepts it.
The second thing that caught my attention was how skillfully Doyle evoked the mood of the moors. I know that many people have loved the moors, both in fact and in fiction, but I would find it hard to spend much time there. I need trees!
Babi
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OK, I can't resist posting my Sherlock Holmes joke. If you've heard it, please skip this post.
Holmes and Watson went camping. During the night, Holmes said "Watson: look up, and tell me what you see and what it means".
Watson looked and said "I see millions on millions of stars, just like ours. It means that around those stars are millions and millions of planets just like ours. And there are millions and millions of other galaxies just like ours containing millions and millions of stars and more millions and millions of planets. So somewhere on all those planets just like ours there may be intelligent life, just like us."
No, Watson, you idiot" said Holmes. "It means that someone has stolen our tent."
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Hi, all. I just found this site. I have never read Doyle, but saw most of the Holmes' movies. I want to mark my place, here. I am down with the flu, but will read along with all of you.
Sheila
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I HAVE heard the joke, but Joan you tell it so well.
It puts me in mind of the story of the man who, on entering Jail, was handed the Joke Book. The inmates just had to call out a number, and everyone laughed.
The newbie chose his favorite joke by number and there was a deathly silence.
He said ; "Why didn't any one laugh? They did when it was called by Joe".
And someone said; "he tells it better than you !"
Brian.
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CLUES, BILL SAID.
So, having just read through Chapter Four, I put forth the following:
Footprints (man, animal or man-made?)
Manuscript (who hated the Baskervilles so much and why)
Letter to Sir Henry (who knew his arrival?)
Sunday morning musings!
BABI, that relationship has been studied and discussed for decades! But the phrase "My dear Watson" is used by many of us as a term of endearment of a friend with a quizzical look, perhaps?
YES, YES, I LEFT OUT THE BARRYMORES AS SUBJECTS AS POSSIBLE SUSPECTS!
Now, on to Chapter Five where I shall, undoubtedly, remove old suspects, clues and suspicions.
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"But we hold several threads in our hands, and the odds are that one or other of them guides us to the truth. We may waste time in following the wrong one, but sooner or later we must come upon the right." - Chapter Five
Another suspect? "James Desmond is an elderly clergyman in Westmoreland."
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JoanK and Brian,
Thanks for the chuckle this morning. That's why I love these book discussions. :)
Evelyn
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Anna, thank you for a splendid reply for the Brooks quote.
Brian, thank you very much for posting the Anne Perry quote. It appears as though The Hound of the Baskervill's is the Grand Master of mysteries.
Babi , you are in the RIGHT PLACE. Thanks for your thoughts on the moors of England. I have found the mere mention of that name brings a brooding mystery to any story.
JoanK, that was a good one, but, like Brian, I have heard that before.
Sheila, welcome to the discussion. I am sorry to hear you aren't feeling well. Did you get your flu shot?
Ella, thank you for pointing to some clues. They give rise to some thoughts.
Bill H
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(http://images-partners-tbn.google.com/images?q=tbn:iGxBK-qWFDI24M:www.sherlock-holmes.co.uk/images/HandsomeCab-logo-gif.gif)
Holmes and Watson are often mentioned to be hailing or riding in a Hansom Cab. I knew the name Hansom was derived from the designers name, however, I sometimes wondered how "cab" come into being. Well the following information answered both quite nicely.
"A hansom cab is a kind of horse-drawn carriage designed and patented in 1834 by Joseph Hansom, an architect from York. The vehicle was developed and tested by Hansom in Hinckley, Leicestershire, England. Originally known as the Hansom safety cab, its purpose was to combine speed with safety, with a low centre of gravity that was essential for safe cornering. Hansom's original design was heavily altered by John Chapman to improve its practicability, but retained Hansom's name
Cab is a shortening of cabriolet, reflecting the design of the carriage. It replaced the hackney carriage as a vehicle for hire; with the introduction of clockwork mechanical taximeters to measure fares, the name became taxicab. Hansom cabs enjoyed immense popularity as they were ....
To read the entire text click on this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansom_cab
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That's interesting about the Hansom. It sure doesn't look like a low center of gravity to me--it looks like all the weight is above the wheels, and it could easily tip backward or forward.
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I have just discovered that the NOTIFY button works on this site - - - it did not always
work on the "old " (to coin a phrase) SeniorNet - - - and it dutifully sends me an email
when anyone posts a message to a discussion in which I am interested. Bravo !!
Brian
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The manuscript: Holmes has remarkable eyesight. He sees "an inch or two" of a manuscript sticking out of Dr. Mortimer's pocket, and is able to date it to about 1730 by such things as the "alternative use of the long s and the short". Given what handwriting looked like then, that's pretty good.
But what a story unfolds! The wild chase across the moor, the unearthly hound, and the family curse! A good start for a gothic tale.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/baskervilles/Baskervillescvr2.jpg) | The Hound of the
Baskervilles
by
A. Conan Doyle "Sherlock Holmes' most famous case, the Hound of the Baskervilles, was set on foggy Dartmoor, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got much of the inspiration for the book from real-life people and places - as well as folklore.
The first episodes of Sherlock Holmes' best known adventure - were published in The Strand Magazine starting in August 1901." http://classiclit.about.com |
Links:
Free Online Version - The Hound of the Baskervilles (http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/DoyHoun.html)
Official web site ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Literary Estate. (http://www.sherlockholmesonline.org/l)
Sydney Paget Drawings: Archive (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8950/holmes/paget.htm)
The Sherlock Holmes Museum (http://www.sherlock-holmes.co.uk/home.htm)
Schedule:
Jan. 2nd --- Jan. 8th Chapters: 1 -- 5
Jan. 9th --- Jan. 15th Chapters: 6 -- 10
Jan. 16th --- Jan. 22st Chapters 11 -- 15
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/baskervilles/S.HolmesCd.jpg) |
Discussion Leaders: BillH (Leyube@aol.com) and fairanna (fairanna@verizon.net)
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As you value your life or your reason keep away
from the moor.
You may be cajoled into imagining that your own
special trade or your own industry will be en-
couraged by a protective tariff, but it stands to
reason that such legislation must in the long run
keep away wealth from the country, diminish the
value of our imports, and lower the general con-
ditions of life in this island.
Taking the pasted text message received by Sir Henry Baskerville
and comparing it with the leading article on free trade from The
Times; one can quickly see that as well as the omission of the
word 'moor', which had to be inked in, the word 'as' is also missing.
(The only time in the quoted paragraph the letter 's' follows 'a' in
in the word 'reason' - which has already been used).
Sherlock Holmes (or Conan Doyle) missed a trick or two here.
Brian
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I've always wondered what a Hansom cab looked like. I don't know why -- I thought the driver rode up front.
Yes, this is the spookiest of the spooky!
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I wondered what the moors actually look like. Here are some panoramic views (I haven't figured out how to work them, but maybe you can).
http://www.phototropic.co.uk/landscapeleaps/dartmoor_panoramic_photography/pano-Brentor_-_Dartmoor (http://www.phototropic.co.uk/landscapeleaps/dartmoor_panoramic_photography/pano-Brentor_-_Dartmoor)I
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(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/90/100790-004-7A60ED47.jpg)
DARTMOOR
PatH, thank you for the save. I made use of it.
JoanK thank you for the link. Just imagine the Scene above at night!
Bill H
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Well I never really gave any thought to what a moor looked like...it seems whatever I read about one it was always described as an unpleasent place and always made me feel I wouldnt like to be on one day or night ,,,,it seems they were always described as mysterious ..and that one doesnt look kindly to me.........
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I particularly like JoanK's picture gallery. The moors aren't quite as gloomy as I think of them, but boy, they sure are lonely.
Did you notice the sixth picture down in the right hand column? It looks like it could be a prehistoric standing stone. At the end of his wild ride, the wicked Hugo is found dead in a moonlit clearing "...in which stood two of those great stones, still to be seen there, which were set by certain forgotten peoples in the days of old."
How's that for atmosphere? The moon lighting up the two pillars, and the huge, bloody hound standing over the body.
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Manuscript (who hated the Baskervilles so much and why)
As far as I can see, ELLA, it was only the cruel Sir Hugo who was hated, and deservedly so. The 'curse' fell on him and, apparently, his descendents as well. The latest Baskervilles both seem to have been pleasant, well-liked men. Curses are notoriously indiscriminate in that respect, don't you think?
It is my understanding that one of the greatest dangers of the moors is the sameness of the landscape. It is so easy for someone unfamiliar with them to get lost out there. And the weather in that part of England is so poor (in my view, at least), that the idea of being caught out in that wilderness in rain or cold is decidedly unpleasant.
BILL, thank you so much for that information about the Hansom cabs. I had no idea of the origin of either 'cab' or 'taxi', and I love learning about words. Learning something new always adds flavor to my day.
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I enjoyed the English moors. They are very different from the other landscapes of England but in their own way they are quite beautiful. However, there is a certain "feel" about them that could easily foster all kinds of ghostly stories. Of course, we were only on the moors in the day time. If I were out there alone on a dark night I might feel very differently about them!
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Well I read the whole story yesterday on line as I just could not stop :). Loved it but I to don't want to give anything away so skim the four chapters before saying any thing.
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Hi, Ginger, I'm happy to see you here. :)
Bill H
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In chapter two, The Curse of the Baskervills, Dr. Mortimer reads from the manuscript the account of the origin of the hound.
"Know then that in the time of the Great Rebellion (the history of which by the learned Lord Clarendon I most earnestly commend to your attention) this Manor of Baskerville was held by Hugo of that name, nor can it be gainsaid that he was a most wild, profane, and godless man. This, in truth his neighbours might have pardoned, seeing that saints have never flourished in those parts, but there was in him a certain wanton and cruel humour which made his name a byword through the West. It chanced that this Hugo came to love (if, indeed, so dark a passion may be known under so bright a name) the daughter of a yeoman who held lands near the Baskerville estate. But the young maiden, being discreet and of good repute, would ever avoid him, for she feared his evil name...."
For me, this reading of Dr. Motimer did more to set the gloom and tragedy of the story more so than the old Baskerville Hall and the devilish moors.
I could visualize the cruel Sir Hugo chasing the young maiden at night over the gloomy moor. I knew then that a mysterious tale would follow.
JoanK, yes, thank you for the picture gallery.
Bill H
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Dr. James Mortimer reads a a manuscript from times gone by of the first Baskerville Hugo and his death to Sherlock and Homes.
The start of the Baskerville curse
Hugo Baskervill kidnapped the daughter of a yeoman. Now there is one reason to kill Hugo. Humm I wonder. She does excape tho before harm can come to her but his friends want to set the Baskerville hounds on her to capture her. He even he cried aloud before all the company that he would that very night render his body and soul to the Powers of Evil if he might but overtake the wench. Evil was Hugo Baskerville. They found her dead from fear and fatigue.Hugo was by her side where the black beast shaped like a hound was plucking at his throat.
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Here's a quote from Michael Dirda, Book Critic for the Washington Post:
"Jan.6 is Twelfth Night, ... for a certain group of readers Jan 6 has another significance. It marks the presumed birthday of the greatest fictional character of modern times, Mr. Sherlock Holmes, the world's foremost consulting detective."
The Baker Street Irregulars, a group of Sherlockian enthusiasts, meet every year on or near that date to celebrate it! Shall we all wish our Mr. Holmes a Happy Birthday wherever he may be?
I'm only just starting chapter 4 - love it! My book is a 2 vol. edition of the Annotated Sherlock Holmes so it's pretty heavy to read in bed plus it's old and the binding is beginning to loosen which makes the whole enterprise a tad chancy! However I shall soldier on. The book has the illustrations from the old Strand magazine where the story was originally published as well as all the extra info one might want.
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I still find it uncomfortable to read books online. Too bad: there is a larger library online than I could ever reach in person. So I asked for it at the library, and was given the choice of four editions. Holmes is alive and well in Soutrhern California.
A typical Victorian plot: the maiden who dies protecting her virtue! We still get that sometimes in modern horror stories.
But what a delicious clue the single boots that are stolen. Not having read the book, I've been puzzling over it. Surely done to fake footprints, but why two different ones (I haven't finished Ch. 5, so maybe it's explained).
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It marks the presumed birthday of the greatest fictional character of modern times, Mr. Sherlock Holmes, the world's foremost consulting detective."
JoanK, does the "birthday"of Mr. Sherlock Holmes refer to the date of the first publication of any of the Holmes stories?
I also was at a loss as to why the shoe/s were stolen.
Ginger, thank you for the post.
Bill H
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DISCUSSION TOPICS
My edition of the novel offers some discussion topics that may guide or add to the pleasure of youtr reading of the story. As you as you read along, please feel free to offer your thoughts about them.
"Sherlock Holmes uses deductive reasoning to solve his cases. What is deductive reasoning? How does it differ from guessing? What knowledge and skills does it require?
• "The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes," Sherlock Holmes declares in Chapter Three. Do you agree? Can you find examples of obvious and important things about you or your friends that have been overlooked by others?
• Discuss the nature of Sherlock Holmes's friendship with Dr. Watson. How highly does Holmes value Watson's opinion? Why is Watson important to Holmes? Why is Holmes important to Watson?
• The Hound of the Baskervilles is narrated by Dr. Watson. The story unfolds entirely from his perspective. What if Sherlock Holmes were doing the telling? Would the story be as suspenseful? Would it have as many twists or turns? Why or why not?
• Describe Sherlock Holmes's personality. What is appealing about his character? What isn't? Why do you think he is drawn to difficult and dangerous cases?
• Consider the female characters in the novel. What are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? Do they share any traits in common? How are they treated by Dr. Watson and Sherlock Holmes?
. Like most mysteries The Hound of the Baskervilles has a few "red herrings" misleading clues that point to the wrong culprit. Find some examples of "red herrings" sprinkled throughout the book. Did you fall for any of them?"
Bill H
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JoanR, I'm reading the same edition you are, though my binding is still OK. You're right, it's uncomfortable in bed. And the footnotes are really overkill, but it's nice to have all those Sidney Paget drawings.
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(http://www.sherlock-holmes.co.uk/images/postcard2.gif)
Folks, I don't want you to miss out on this. There is a link in the heading that takes you to the SHERLOCK HOLMES MUSEUM. It is a wonderful website for all Sherlock Holmes fans. On the top of the home page there is a tab marked "AUDIO." If you click on this you can select several Sherlock Holmes stories to listen to on your computer speakers. You can copy them to a disc, HOWEVER, they may have a copy write, so be careful about coying to a disc.
http://www.sherlock-holmes.co.uk/home.htm
Bill H
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There's an advantage to the book I have--there are 100 pages of stuff before you get to the stories. Holmes' birthday is January 6 because more Baker Street Irregulars are on that side of the argument than are backing the other theories. The arguments seem somewhat tenuous, such things as a few references to twelfth night, and an alleged hangover on Jan 7 at the start of "The Valley of Fear".
Nonetheless, I will toast Holmes tonight (I'm going out to dinner).
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Wait for me, Pat, I'll go with you! Depending upon the weather, it's cold, rainy, damp here, what is it like where you live?
BILL, what a delightful picture and I shall click on the Sherlock Holmes Museum!
Do you know that I put this story's title into Google and you wouldn't believe all the sites you get. All the cliff notes and spark notes you could ever want!!!
I like your questions; let's see:
Deductive reasoning - well, we deduce from the clues which is very different than guessing I would think. We use a bit more brain power perhaps???
I shall have to think about Question 2 awhile.
But I do wish I had a Dr. Watson; a friend in need, a friend indeed, one to bounce ideas off of and to converse intellligently with.
Later for the rest.................
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My wife and I were out in the car today and we were passed by a really filthy van.
The roads around here are covered in wet snow and grit.
I said to her that the van had very recently had a flat tire, and when she said : "What makes you say that?" I was able to explain that the front wheel on the passenger side was as clean as the rest of the van was dirty.
Deductive reasoning.
Brian.
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Sorry, Ella, it's cold, rainy and damp here too, but at least we haven't yet gotten the promised icy roads. Anyway, I had a good meal in good company, and they tolerated my Sherlock Holmes request.
I like that picture of Baker Street. I bet you can't see across it like that now, too many vehicles in the way.
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This, in truth his neighbours might have pardoned, seeing that saints have never flourished in those parts..
[/i]
I loved this line! I don't often see that sort of sly humor from Mr. Doyle.
IMO, Holmes quite rightly valued Watson for his integrity, courage and loyalty. He could trust him, and rely on him in difficulties and danger. While Watson certainly wasn't up to Holmes' level of genius, he was nevertheless an intelligent man. Besides being a doctor, and the 'writer' of the Holmes stories, he learned a good deal about observation and 'detecting' from his work with Holmes, as he himself commented in this particular story.
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Thank you Ella for your comments and my favorite line was
But I do wish I had a Dr. Watson; a friend in need, a friend indeed, one to bounce ideas off of and to converse intelligently with.
That is what makes these discussions so special.....Except for my two dogs I live alone most of the time and what I miss most of all is conversation..real conversation where you can discuss anything good , bad etc with someone who will talk about how they feel and allow you the same....I have to get back to reading the book on line...but we have had a week of grey skies, grey rain , without a sliver of sunlight or a peek at stars....makes me lethargic One thing I am thankful for is at least it was rain and NO SNOW>...
Bill you always come up with wonderful questions ...best thing for the doldrums of grey days and dark nights back later .....love all the comments ...fairanna
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Tee hee, Babi, that's funny. Here's another:
Dr. Mortimer says that his walking stick was a presentation "From one or two friends...on the occasion of my marriage."
Holmes: "Dear, dear, that's bad!"
Dr. Mortimer blinked...in mild astonishment.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Paget_holmes.png)
Watson(left) and Holmes.
What follow is a little about the personality of Dr. John Hamish Watson.
Well, now, how many of us new Dr. Watson's middle name? I probably forgot it if I ever did read it.
"Watson is well aware of both the limits of his abilities and Holmes' reliance on him:
"[Holmes] was a man of habits... and I had become one of them... a comrade... upon whose nerve he could place some reliance... a whetstone for his mind. I stimulated him... If I irritated him by a certain methodical slowness in my mentality, that irritation served only to make his own flame-like intuitions and impressions flash up the more vividly and swiftly. Such was my humble role in our alliance."
Conan Doyle portrays Watson as a capable and brave individual, whom Holmes does not hesitate to call upon for both moral and physical assistance: "Quickly Watson, get your service revolver!" Watson occasionally attempts to solve crimes on his own, using Holmes's methods. For example, in The Hound of the Baskervilles, Watson efficiently clears up several of the many mysteries confronting the pair, and Holmes praises him warmly for his zeal and intelligence
[/b]
You can read the entire article of Waston's personality by using this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Watson
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Anna: Grey skies, gloomy skies here also!
HAMISH! Scottish, indeed, Bill. The name will always remind me of the character that we all love in M.C.Beaton's books. He is named Hamish also.
I looked up Doyle in Google, you may be interested. He was a doctor and at one time was so bored because no one came through his door that he started writing stories. Here is the web sitre of Arthur Conan Doyle and his history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Conan_Doyle
At one point Doyle wrote the following in a letter to his mother:
"I think of slaying Holmes . . . and winding him up for good and all. He takes my mind from better things." His mother responded, saying, "You may do what you deem fit, but the crowds will not take this lightheartedly."
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That's a good link, Ella. It's worth following up the link to Dr. Bell. Doyle worked under him for a while, and Bell was the model for one aspect of Holmes--the ability to deduce a lot by careful observation of very minor clues. He often pulled off the sort of thing Holmes did: "I perceive you have recently been in Afghanistan". (That's the first thing Holmes said to Watson when they met.)
Yes, Bill, as a Sherlock Holmes nut, I did know Watson's middle name.
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Here's something which hasn't yet been mentioned about Watson's value to Holmes. It's no fun being clever if no one notices. Watson wasn't as good at detection as Holmes by a long shot, but he was clever enough to observe what was going on and appreciate it properly. And his boiling down the stories to a narrative that others could understand gave Holmes more stature and validation. I doubt Holmes was good at expressing gratitude for this sort of thing.
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Gray days and lots of rain? Sounds like the moors to me! Kind of sets the mood, doesn't it, Anna?
Oho! I missed that one, Pat. Subtle!
I preened a bit when I saw that Wickipedia made a comment similar to mine about Watson. Then it occurred to me, that probably meant the opinion was on the order of 'Duh!...who doesn't know that!" ::)
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There's no "duh" about it, Babi. People have been picking the Holmes stories apart for 100 years, so of course we are unlikely to come up with something that no one has ever thought of. We can still be clever for thinking of the same things for ourselves.
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I've been pondering on Bill's question: what if the stories were told by Holmes, not Watson? I think they would be unreadable! Holmes' personality would not wear well looking down his nose and explaining to us inferior beings what happened. (I'm exaggerating: Holmes is much more polite than that, but still...) We can relate to Watson, having much the same reaction to what happens and to Holmes that he does. Note that Watson is much smarter and more appreciated that his imitations (e.g. Agatha Christie's Hastings).
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There is at least one mystery told by Holmes. "The Lion's Mane" takes place after Holmes had retired to Sussex and saw Watson only occasionally.
"Thus I must act as my own chronicler. Ah! had he but been with me, how much he might have made of so wonderful a happening and of my eventual triumph against every difficulty! As it is, however, I must needs tell my tale in my own plain way, showing by my words each step upon the difficult road which lay before me as I searched for the mystery of the Lion's Mane."
The story is perfectly readable, but you miss Watson.
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Ella, thank you for mentioning the character named Hamish in M.C. Beatons books, You have a fine memory. And thank you for the link that gives us a detailed bio of Doyle. Do you think that Conan Doyle was, in his own mind. trying to be Dr. Watson?
Folks, Thank you for all these interesting posts. As I read them I can tell that you folks are very well versed in Sherlocian lore.
Bill H
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The opening pages of Chapter Six finds Dr. Watson, young Sir Henry, and Dr. Mortimer traveling through the moors on their way to Baskerville Hall. In my MHO. Conan Doyle does a fine job of leading us to the Baskerville Hall in writing the following paragraph.
The wagonette swung round into a side road, and we curved upward through deep lanes worn by centuries of wheels, high banks on either side, heavy with dripping moss and fleshly harts-tongue ferns. Bronzing bracken and mottled bramble gleamed in the light of the sinking sun.
Still steadily rising, we passed over a narrow granite bridge and skirted a noisy stream which gushed swiftly down, foaming and roaring amid the gray boulders... To Sir Henry's eyes all seemed beautiful, but to me a tinge of melancholy lay upon the countryside, which bore so clearly the mark of the waning year. Yellow leaves carpeted the lanes and fluttered down upon us as we passed. The rattle of our wheels died away as we drove through drifts of rotting vegetation—sad gifts, as it seemed to me, for Nature to throw before the returning heir of the Baskervilles.
Bruce Brooks gives the reader pause for thought and speculation when he writes the following in his Forward.
"Now, you could say that in terms of this tale of horror and investigation, this little paragraph merely serves the purpose of getting two characters from one place to the next, and is otherwise unimportant. But in The Hound of the Baskervilles no paragraph, no sentence, no word is unimportant. Conan Doyle uses every tool to set us up, to make us feel what he wants us to feel as readers. Try this: go through the paragraph above, and pick out words and phrases that contribute to a sense that we are trapped inside the motion of something as big as the landscape, as unhealthy as rottenness, and as inevitable as the year that wanes. Go ahead—count 'em up"
POST SCRIPT:
In the above paragraph, Bruce Brooks writes it does a fine job of getting two charters from one place to the other. However, I count, not including the driver, three characters in the wagonette, Watson, Mortimer and young Sir Henry. Maybe Mr. Brooks did this purposefully to test our reading observation. But, then again, perhaps I nit pick.
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Brian mentioned Anne Perry,so I assume everyone knows the story of Anne Perry. Several years ago a film was made called Heavenly Creatures which details the events. Good film....well made.
I used to listen to the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes on the radio ( we all remember radio )and it was with Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce..I think those programs are still available in CD collections of Old Time Radio.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was a rather fascinating character himself who dabbled in some occult explorations, I think Harry Houdini was a fan of his stories.
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Pike99, yes, I believe those old time radio stories are available on CDs. Perhaps our Ginny could tell you how to obtain them. However,you can listen to some of them on your computer by following this link. If you use the link, please click on "TAB" at the top of the page and select a story.
http://www.sherlock-holmes.co.uk/home.htm
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Bill I followed your link but could not get the audio. I wonder what I did not do as my volume works.
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Ginger, sometimes I get a message at the top of the URL I'm visiting that asks this "This website wants you to allow popup's on this page." I have experienced this with the web site you are referring to and also with SeniorLearn. I think it all depends on the browser that is being used. I'll click on "temporarily allow pop ups" and then I can access what I want. If I click on "Never allow pop ups from this web site," then I can't access the material on that page. The only website that I always allow pop ups is SeniorLearn.
This is about the only explanation I can offer. Perhaps one of our techs can give a more detailed answer. In the mean time, if you have another browser give that one a try.
Ginger, one more thing. When I click on the story I want to listen to I'll get a pop up Electronic registration card wanting to know my E-mail address, country, and Zip Code. There is a drop down menu (the little arrow on the card) that allows me to select "Remind me Later." I do this and hit next, FINISH and " listen to the story I want.
Ginger, then you have to wait several seconds for the story to start.
I hope this helps, Ginger.
I'm sorry, Ginger, that I can't offer a better explanation.
Bill H
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/baskervilles/Baskervillescvr2.jpg) | The Hound of the
Baskervilles
by
A. Conan Doyle "Sherlock Holmes' most famous case, the Hound of the Baskervilles, was set on foggy Dartmoor, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got much of the inspiration for the book from real-life people and places - as well as folklore.
The first episodes of Sherlock Holmes' best known adventure - were published in The Strand Magazine starting in August 1901." http://classiclit.about.com |
Links:
Free Online Version - The Hound of the Baskervilles (http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/DoyHoun.html)
Official web site ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Literary Estate. (http://www.sherlockholmesonline.org/l)
Sydney Paget Drawings: Archive (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8950/holmes/paget.htm)
The Sherlock Holmes Museum (http://www.sherlock-holmes.co.uk/home.htm)
Schedule:
Jan. 2nd --- Jan. 8th Chapters: 1 -- 5
Jan. 9th --- Jan. 15th Chapters: 6 -- 10
Jan. 16th --- Jan. 22st Chapters 11 -- 15
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/baskervilles/S.HolmesCd.jpg) |
Discussion Leaders: BillH (Leyube@aol.com) and fairanna (fairanna@verizon.net)
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Thanks Bill I will give it a try,
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It is working now, thanks Bill.
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It is one of those nights when I am unable to sleep so I read the next two chapters of our book. We have the same suspects I believe - the Barrymores, Dr. Mortimer and the Stapletons, a brother/sister who have a strange relationship. Isn't it a bit suspicious why they are living on the moor?
And Mr. Stapleton is very curious; asks a lot of questions, but then one would I imagine.
The Barrymores apparently came into some money upon the death of Sir Charles because they are leaving and going into business. And why is Mrs. Barrymore crying?
Clues - the lost boot and the moan of woman in the night?
Actually, I don't get the sense that the moor is a melancholy place; it could be a lovely place to hike upon and observe all the varying kinds of brush, butterflies, birds, etc. And it could be a very romantic place in the evening. I think we believe it is dangerous and gloomy simply because there has been a murder there and because Watson believes it is so.
Of course, those sinkholes sound rather dreadful and the naturalist seemed to take the fact of the pony wandering in there and drowning rather mildly, don't you think?
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BILL, I was interested in Bruce Brooks analysis of the paragraph you quoted.
I found that particular paragraph described the moor and set the scene very well. My reaction to it was as mixed as my reaction to the moors. The image of 'fleshy harts-tongue ferns' was slightly unpleasant, while the 'bronzing bracken' was pleasing. Noisy streams are cheerful things. I have never found autumn gloomy, but exuberant with color. (The gray, chill, wet days are an exception of course.) Perhaps there is not much color in autumn on the moors.
I agree with Mr. Brooks, that there is much more to this paragraph than simply a device to get our characters to Baskervill Hall. Any story that confined itself to the mechanics of events without background, description and emotional reactions would be brief, boring, and ineffective, to say the least.
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That paragraph was so descriptive, it gave a "you are there" feel. I found myself mentally bouncing along in the wagon, taking in all the scenery, wondering what lies ahead...very good writing.
Evelyn
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Ginger, I'm glad the AUDIO is working for you.
Ella, your post excelently intrdoduces the new character: Stapletons, and Barymoors. For me the Barrymores, at first glance,the Barymores lends a more mystery to Baskerville Hall.
I suppose the moors comes accrs as gloomy and melancholy becuse so Doyle and other authors use the envornment to add a depth of mystery to their stories.
Perhaps not to many naturalist read the story about the poor poney. :)
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On the day of Watson and young Henry's departure for Baskerville Hall, Sherlock offers this advise to Dr. Watson"
"One thing only appears to be certain, and that is that Mr. James Desmond, who is the next heir, is an elderly gentleman of a very amiable disposition, so that this persecution does not arise from him. I really think that we may eliminate him entirely from our calculations"
I sort of tend to disagree with Holmes dismissing out of hand Mr. Desmond as one of the suspects. Even though Desmond is of an amiable disposition shouldn't cloud Holmes' deduction of the gentlemen. He is, after all, the next heir. I'm sure many people of amiable dispositions have committed crimes of murder for riches.
(http://etext.virginia.edu/images/modeng/public/DoyHoun/Doy1H369.gif)
"Our friends had already secured a first-class carriage and were waiting for us upon the platform."
I have often thought how pleasant rail travel must've been in the Victorian age when passengers of good financial means could secure a first-class carriage for their private use. I would've liked to travel in that mode. Do any of you know if it is still possible to secure that type of rail travel in England?
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Hi Bill!
You are right, we must NOT dismiss any suspect in this story. I haven't finished our assigned chapters yet, it's fun to read the book like this, chapter by chapter.
Yes, I rode a train similar to the Victorian age -well, in my mind anyway. Not a first class carriage - I'm not sure what that would be, but................
About 10 years ago we took a train from Rome to Vienna and I was enchanted! It had a long corridor to one side with wide windows all along it and then doors opening off of it into little sitting rooms. Little private sitting rooms just as in the movies! I felt like a star and as if I should have had a long dress on with a huge hat with feathers and a boa around my neck, button shoes! It was fun.
What would a first class carriage look like?
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When I was in England 40 years ago, we had Ist Class and 3rd Class carriages only.
2nd Class having disappeared long ago.
Here's a picture of an old 1st Class carriage : -
(http://www.victorianweb.org/technology/railways/12.jpg)
Brian.
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I haven't read the next chapters yet either, mean to do so shortly, but in the meantime: I was in a bookstore today and saw "Sherlock Holmes was Wrong" by Pierre Bayard, a slim volume which evidently retells "Hound", coming up with a different murderer. No one who hasn't read the Doyle should touch it, because from the first page it has plot spoilers, but if my library has it, I'll get it and read it toward the end of the discussion, in order to report on it.
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Found an error in description of map showing area around Baskerville home-- called it a large scale map. A large scale map for instance would be 1:100 (for example 1 inch equals 100 miles) - small scale would be 1:10 (1 inch equals 10 miles). So a large scale map does not show more detail.
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BILL, Mr. Desmond, the amiable gentleman, is also an elderly gentleman. It doesn't seem likely that he would have the strength and energy to pursue the persecution we are seeing at BAskerville Hall. Besides, would Doyle ever permit Sherlock Holmes to be mistaken on a judgment call like this? I am perfectly willing to dismiss Mr. Desmond as a suspect.
The Barrymore's are more interesting. I think their affection and regard for their late master is entirely sincere, but I found it strange that they were planning to retire ASAP. I feel sure they know something more than they are saying.
It is obvious that the late Lord of Baskerville Hall died of fright. He must have seen something terrifying. I've been looking at pictures of the largest breed of hound, the wolfhounds, and while they are big, there is certainly nothing frightening about them. Or course, the poor man was so fearful of the 'hound of the Baskervilles' that his imagination may have magnified what he actually saw. On the other hand, those paw prints were described as 'huge'.
I noted in my library yesterday a series of juvenile books called "Match Wits With Sherlock Holmes". The books each presented a mystery, including a listing of 'clues' at the end of chapters. The young reader was encouraged to solve the mystery, and see if he/she came to the same conclusion as Mr. Holmes. I thought that was a terrific idea. If I still had 'juveniles' in my family, I'd buy these for them.
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Babi has gotten me on the watch for bits of gentle humor. Here's another:
Dr. Mortimer: "I usually give up one day to pure amusement when I come to town, so I spent it at the Museum of the College of Surgeons."
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Ella, that train trip to Rome sounds so inviting.." Was your your Rome bound train anything like the one in the movie "The orient Express?"
Brian, thank you for the graphic of a 1st Class carriage. A gracious accommodation for train travel in those days.
PatH, thank you for telling us about "Sherlock Holmes Was Wrong." I'd like to read that one too.
Kidsal, very sharp to notice that about the scale of the map.
Babi, I too wondered why the Barrymores chose not to stay on for new owner. Right off that seemed to cast a suspicious aura about them.
"Match Wits with Sherlock Holmes." Hmmm, sounds interesting. I wonder if I could find the clues.
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Holmes tells Watson to simply report the facts to him:
"Anything which may seem to have a bearing however indirect upon the case, and especially the relations between young Baskerville and his neighbours or any fresh particulars concerning the death of Sir Charles
If they are innocent (The Barrymors) it would be a cruel injustice, and if they are guilty we should be giving up all chance of bringing it home to them. No, no, we will preserve them upon our list of suspects. Then there is a groom at the Hall, if I remember right. There are two moorland farmers. There is our friend Dr. Mortimer, whom I believe to be entirely honest, and there is his wife, of whom we know nothing. There is this naturalist, Stapleton, and there is his sister, who is said to be a young lady of attractions. There is Mr. Frankland, of Lafter Hall, who is also an unknown factor, and there are one or two other neighbours. These are the folk who must be your very special study."
Just for the fun of it, Whom do you believe among those listed above would lest likely profit from the young heirs death?
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Bill, I still haven't read any more chapters, but this is fun, as a book discussion should be.
Two women in this story! Now, you know when women appear there is something mysterious going on; we have the slim, dark and beautiful sister of the naturalist and we have the doctor's wife whom we have not been introduced to in the story. Well! We shall see.
BRIAN! What a carriage! It hardly seems substantial enough to be drawn on a track with other trains. It sits so high off the ground, I notice a little step up but I would have trouble getting in it I'm sure. But what a lovely thing. Is that a seat or a luggage rack on top?
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Three women. We also have Mrs. Barrymore, who weeps in the middle of the night, but the Barrymores won't admit it.
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BILL, the trains in Europe are simply magnificent, the stations are huge and most trains are very modern, very fast; so I was surprised by this one that we traveled on. You buy your tickets in town ahead of time at an office - you cannot buy them at the staion. Then you arrive at this cavernous train station and wait by your track.
I tried to find an image of one onlline similar to the one we traveled on, but couldn't. It wasn't a very long trip - gosh, I'll have to ask my daughter for more details. She has a better memory than I do. I remember that the track ended where we got off, it was the end of the line. Further than that and the train would have gone into the canals.
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I rode on th Orient Express from Switzerland to Greece 45 years ago. As poor students, my husband and I rode third class. But they still had the corridors and small rooms -- holding about six.
I've read Chapters 5-10, and I had to exert all my self control not to read on. I've really been drawn in. I was interested in how Doyle creates atmosphere, too. He alternates gloomy scenes with ones that are more cheerful so I was always hoping things would cheer up, and never got used to the gloom.
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I can now start to answer the question about Doyle's treatment of women. So far, all of the women introduced are completely dependent on whatever man they are living with or involved with. We come to one woman who doesn't have a man of her own, and so must throw herself on unrelated ones. This does reflect the financial situation of middle/upper class women in Victorian England.
As far as the men go, the Naturalist seems quite as dependent on dominating his sister as she is on being dominated. But the many men who don't have a woman manage quite well.
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At this point, BILL, it's hard to see how any of the listed suspects could profit from Sir Henry's death. Which, of course, is part of the mystery.
I found Stapleton's behavior re. his sister decidedly odd. He behaves as though he were jealous of her, which sends alarm signals flaring in my mind. It also seemed as though the sister was trying to warn Sir Henry about something, but changed the subject when the brother appeared. Which is another red flag to me regarding Stapleton.
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I will try and respond to all of your fine posts later today. But right now I have to go and watch a lot of football.
Bill H
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I have read two more chapters:
Very stealthily we heard it pass along until it died away in the distance. Then the baronet gently opened his door and we set out in pursuit. Already our man had gone round the gallery and the corridor was all in darkness. Softly we stole along until we had come into the other wing. We were just in time to catch a glimpse of the tall, black-bearded figure, his shoulders rounded as he tiptoed down the passage. Then he passed through the same door as before, and the light of the candle framed it in the darkness and shot one single yellow beam across the gloom of the corridor. We shuffled cautiously towards it,
What atmosphere Doyle was able to conjure up for the reader.
The story begins to eliminate suspects as in the Barrymores and the escaped convict. Mr. Frankland is still interesting isn't he? It appears he needs money and he is line for the inheritance, which may mean nothing at all.
That business of the Stapletons is going to be fun to read about.
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I'm not sure we can eliminate the Barrymores. Just because they have one guilty secret doesn't mean they don't have another.
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The 'Hound' does seem to have more atmosphere than most of the Holmes stories, doesn't it? Of course, I believe it is also the longest. Maybe the others were trimmed down to mostly essentials for the sake of brevity.
Good point, PatH. Authors can get sneaky that way, sometimes. Make you think you've solved that mystery, only to find it's a cover.
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Well, shucks, Pat and Babi. I thought I was onto a "sure" thing with the Barrymores but you two are making me more suspicious than I ever was that Doyle is playing with the reader.
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(http://etext.virginia.edu/images/modeng/public/DoyHoun/Doy1H371.gif)
"Welcome, Sir Henry!"
Young Henry's thoughts as the cart approached Baskerville Hall:
"Through the gateway we passed into the avenue, where the wheels were again hushed amid the leaves, and the old trees shot their branches in a somber tunnel over our heads. Baskerville shuddered as he looked up the long, dark drive to where the house glimmered like a ghost at the farther end.
The avenue opened into a broad expanse of turf, and the house lay before us. In the fading light I could see that the center was a heavy block of building from which a porch projected. The whole front was draped in ivy, with a patch clipped bare here and there where a window or a coat of arms broke through the dark veil. From this central block rose the twin towers, ancient, crenellated, and pierced with many loopholes. To right and left of the turrets were more modern wings of black granite. A dull light shone through heavy mullioned windows, and from the high chimneys which rose from the steep, high-angled roof there sprang a single black column of smoke."
After Sir Henry witnessed the ominous structure of Baskerville Hall he was greeted at the door by the equally somber appearance of Barrymore. I couldn't help but think , Sir Henry is no longer a happy camper.
I don't know why but when I saw Sydney Paget's drawing of Barrymore at the door of the Hall I was reminded of one of the Brahm Stoker tales.
As Ella pointed out, "What atmosphere Doyle was able to conjure up for the reader."
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Folks, I should have pointed this out a few days ago. We are know discussing Chapters 6-10, Jan. 9th through Jan.15th. However, better late than never. :)
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One has to assume that black granite was a readily available and inexpensive building material. I can't think of any other reason one would build a black stone house. Brrr! Sir Henry needs to get a landscaper in there to break up that cold, dark image with some cheerful color. I assume something cheerful will grow there.
I like the small illustrations you post, BILL. They so perfectly reflect the images we are getting from the story, and are so true to the times.
I was a little surprised that Watson's first assumption, on finding Barrymore at a window at night with a light, was that he was trying to see something outside. A light at night is so obviously a signal to someone out there in the dark.
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I have read all the posts and have to say everyone is suggesting and thinking the same as I ...it was hard to stop since I only have a couple chapters left to finish the story ..Just as I think of a suspect the story says I am wrong I keep trying to recall the end from my reading this so many years ago and will tell you what I feel
First I want to tell you I am glad I am reading in the day because Doyle's descriptions are so well done he makes me feel I am THERE I can tell you I would have left as soon as possible if I had felt what I feel when reading ...
My memory of the ending is not that I recall who done it but a feeling that Holmes deduction and telling WHO DONE it was because we didn't have all the clues I keep feeling it was very convoluted and not who I thought it would be but also I keep feeling when Holmes solves it I felt WELL IF I HAS KNOWN THAT I WOULD HAVE GUESSED IT TOO>..makes me laugh I am approaching the end but am delaying because I love the suspense ...it is a delicious tale and so well told for me I feel I am there ...Bill you chose well ....and everyone has made wonderful contributions to the discussion .....fairanna
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(http://www.literarynorfolk.co.uk/images/cro25_small.JPG)
Cromer Hall
As I read the story, I wondered what Baskerville Hall looked like. Was there a Paget drawing or some other graphic that might show me? So I did a google and I learned that the above Cromer Hall and the existence of a legend of a hound, albeit in another story, that inspired Conan Doyle to write this novel. You may find my following post to be of interest. It is a copy and paste from the encyclopedia so any mistakes in spelling or literature are not mine.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
"Conan Doyle's description of Baskerville Hall was inspired by a visit to Cromer Hall in Norfolk
During their visit to Cromer, Conan Doyle and Betram Fletcher Robinson had dinner with Benjamin Bond Bond Cabbell at Cromer Hall. During dinner Cabbell told them about his ancestor, Richard Cabbell - Lord of Brook Manor and Buckfastleigh - who had been killed by a devilish dog. The story went that Richard Cabbell's wife had been unfaithful and that, Conan Doyle's description of Baskerville Hall bears an uncanny likeness to Cromer Hall.
After beating her, she had fled out onto Dartmoor. Cabbell pursued her and stabbed her - but while committing the murder his wife's faithful dog attacked him and tore out his throat. The ghost of the dog was said to haunt Dartmoor and to reappear to each generation of the Cabbell family. It is clear that Richard Cabbell became the model for the evil Hugo Baskerville in Conan Doyle's classic tale.
There is also another fascinating Norfolk connection - namely that the coachman who drove Conan Doyle to Cromer Hall was apparently called Baskerville. Conan Doyle often drew his character's names from real life - as demonstrated by his use of the name Cubitt in The Dancing Men - see Happisburgh.
Conan Doyle would almost certainly have been aware too of the Norfolk legend of Black Shuck - the terrible Hound which terrorised parts of the county. The legend went that anyone looking into the eyes of the hound only had a year to live...."
If you wish to read the this interesting article in it's entirety, please use this link.
http://www.literarynorfolk.co.uk/cromer_hall.htm
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Once you've finished the book, you might enjoy reading Robin Paige's "Death at Dartmoor". Paige (pen name of Susan Albert and her historian husband) writes Victorian novels, each one containing an actual historical figure. In this one, the fictional characters join with Conen Doyle in solving a murder on the moors: many details of Doyle's life, and parallel's to "Hound". Warnings:Don't read before finishing "Hound" (spoilers). And you may not like the portrayal of Conen Doyle, who comes off badly in Paige's hands (probably joelous of his writing skill).
It looks as if the picture on the cover is the same Cromer Hall.
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/p/robin-paige/death-at-dartmoor.htm (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/p/robin-paige/death-at-dartmoor.htm)
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Fascinating bits of history and legend there, BILL. Cromer Hall does not appear as dark as I have imagined Baskerville Hall to be. Still very heavy, very massive, tho'. I wonder what the coachman, Baskerville, thought when he found his name playing a prominent part in Doyle's story.
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Excerpt from Chapter 6:
"I saw his dark face lit up with a boyish enthusiasm as he gazed about him. The light beat upon him where he stood, but long shadows trailed down the walls and hung like a black canopy above him."
This is only one of the sentences that Conan Doyle uses to convey the sinister. Sir Henry, on seeing his ancestral home, is "lit up with boyish enthusiam", but "long shadows trailed down the walls and hung like a black canopy above him." The reader just KNOWS that something wicked this way comes and that Sir Henry is in danger.
And Conan Doyle's description of the dining hall makes it sound like a place that would give the diners indigestion. Not a pleasant place for eating a meal, it seems!
Then, after going to bed Dr. Watson hears;
"And then suddenly, in the very dead of the night, there came a sound to my ears, clear, resonant, and unmistakable. It was the sob of a woman, the muffled, strangling gasp of one who is torn by an uncontrollable sorrow."
It reminds me so much of Jane Eyre and the sounds coming from the top of Thornwood Hall---that same shivery, creepy feeling that I got when I first read Bronte's words.
I love this descriptive style of writing and I can understand why this particular story remains in the memory of anyone who has ever read it.
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My husband first read "Hound" as a teenager. He was sitting on the porch, on a broiling hot Illinois summer day, and he realized he was shivering, and really wanted a sweater. The atmosphere works.
During his final illness, I read a lot of things aloud to him, including "Hound". That's a good test of a book--bad language really shows up, and "Hound" was one of the best. It stands up to a lot of rereading (I had reread it several times before).
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"And then suddenly, in the very dead of the night, there came a sound to my ears, clear, resonant, and unmistakable. It was the sob of a woman, the muffled, strangling gasp of one who is torn by an uncontrollable sorrow."
Phyll, when I read this in the novel, I thought for sure someone was being held prisoner in one of the rooms of Baskerville. And, after reading your post, I do remember that passage from Jayne Eyre.
PatH, that was a very touching post.
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Tomorrow, Jan. 16th thru Jan. 23, will begin the third and last week of this discussion.
During this week we will discuss Chapters 11 thru 15.
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I finished the book last night. I have to say, I agree with Anna -- in spite of Sherlock's reputation for clever deduction, I don't think he left the reader any clues by which he could have guessed the solution. What do the rest of you think?
(but the stolen boots were nice -- even if they don't tell you "who-donnit.". And there was one clue of atmosphere.
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I confess I thought the boot was stolen to leave a suspicious footprint somewhere, and that the older boot would leave a more distinctive tread. Ah well, at least I had a theory, even if it turned out to be wrong. :-\
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/baskervilles/Baskervillescvr2.jpg) | The Hound of the
Baskervilles
by
A. Conan Doyle "Sherlock Holmes' most famous case, the Hound of the Baskervilles, was set on foggy Dartmoor, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got much of the inspiration for the book from real-life people and places - as well as folklore.
The first episodes of Sherlock Holmes' best known adventure - were published in The Strand Magazine starting in August 1901." http://classiclit.about.com |
Links:
Free Online Version - The Hound of the Baskervilles (http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/DoyHoun.html)
Official web site ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Literary Estate. (http://www.sherlockholmesonline.org/l)
Sydney Paget Drawings: Archive (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8950/holmes/paget.htm)
The Sherlock Holmes Museum (http://www.sherlock-holmes.co.uk/home.htm)
Schedule:
Jan. 2nd --- Jan. 8th Chapters: 1 -- 5
Jan. 9th --- Jan. 15th Chapters: 6 -- 10
Jan. 16th --- Jan. 22st Chapters 11 -- 15
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/baskervilles/S.HolmesCd.jpg) |
Discussion Leaders: BillH (Leyube@aol.com) and fairanna (fairanna@verizon.net)
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Pedlin, thank you for posting the Heading. :)
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BABI: I thought the same thing! But I couldn't imagine why only ONE.
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(http://etext.virginia.edu/images/modeng/public/DoyHoun/Doy2H10.gif)
Chapter eleven opens with Dr. Watson's discreet interview or questioning of Mrs. Laura Lyons',of Coombe Tracey, letter she had written to Sir Charles Baskerville. I couldn't help but wonder if Dr. Watson's personality, the very essence of discreetness, was a reflection of Conan's Doyle's own persona, or was Conan Doyle wishing his own conduct could've been more like Watson.
I sometimes wonder if an author of a book would liked to have been similar to the individual he or she wrote about.
Coombe Tracey. Where do they get these names; are they a combination of family names?
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HELLO BILL.
Interesting speculation on the author's wishes, I would have little ideas on that subject. Watson, as Holmes, says in the story, is a man of action, he wants to get things done; while Holmes believes he is the one to solve the crime through his deductive reasoning.
I just finished Chapter 12 and am just amazed at Doyle's ability to set the scene, one of horror:
"A low moan had fallen upon our ears. There it was again upon our left! On that side a ridge of rocks ended in a sheer cliff which overlooked a stone-strewn slope. On its jagged face was spread-eagled some dark, irregular object. As we ran towards it the vague outline hardened into a definite shape. It was a prostrate man face downward upon the ground, the head doubled under him at a horrible angle, the shoulders rounded and the body hunched together as if in the act of throwing a somersault. So grotesque was the attitude that I could not for the instant realize that that moan had been the passing of his soul. Not a whisper, not a rustle, rose now from the dark figure over which we stooped. Holmes laid his hand upon him and held it up again with an exclamation of horror. The gleam of the match which he struck shone upon his clotted fingers and upon the ghastly pool which widened slowly from the crushed skull of the victim. And it shone upon something else which turned our hearts sick and faint within us -- the body of Sir Henry Baskerville! "
The moan was the passing of his soul! Goodness gracious!
His skull was crushed, now how could a hound do that? And then it turned out that the body was not Sir Henry at all.
I shall soon finished the story. It's been fun.
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(http://www.sherlock-holmes.com/silrleft.jpg)
Coombe Tracey - - - I have actually walked on Dartmoor and have never come across the name of this village, so I searched the name, only to find that it is fictitious. There are, however, many similar names, and Conan Doyle has chosen a name that fits in with the rest of the story.
While searching, I came across a great little quiz that should be easy for those of us who have read the book with so much interent : -
http://www.sherlock-holmes.com/rats_quiz_07.htm
Brian.
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According to my book, Coombe Tracey is actually Bovey Tracey:
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/things-to-do/town-details.asp?Town=4
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The plot thickens! Watson learns where the man on the tor has been hiding, and tracks him to one of the neolithic stone huts. Before looking into the hut: "A haze lay low upon the farthest skyline, out of which jutted the fantastic shapes of Belliver and Vixen Tor." Here is Vixen Tor:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/151853/5167/Vixen-Tor-a-granite-formation-on-Dartmoor-Devon
The second picture is the one Bill posted in post #44--undoubtedly the very stone hut where the man was based.
I'm almost finished, but am trying to move slowly so I won't spoil anything for anyone.
I like your quiz, Brian, took it already.
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JOANK, I suppose only one boot was taken, as the perp. (modern, I know) didn't want the clue to be too obvious. Plant one or two discreet, half-hidden prints, and let the detectives pride themselves on their skills.
My mind rebelled immediately on reading that Watson and Holmes found the 'body' of Sir Henry. That was simply not permissible; totally out of character for a Sherlock Holmes story, IMO. I was much relieved and gratified when Sir Henry stirred and proved me right.
When Watson first spotted that tall, slender figure against the moonlight on the tor, I suspected it was Sherlock Holmes. He had been much too 'absent' in this mystery. I could readily believe he had been lurking secretly on the moors. It would be entirely in keeping with his methods.
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Ella, when I read that passage from the novel I thought for sure it was Sir Henry's body.
Brian, thank you for the link to that quiz. I'll download it and see how I do. Might be fun to see how we all do!!
PatH, the second picture of the moor reminds me a bit of Stone Henge. I visited Stone Henge on a trip to England. I know it's a bit of a stretch but Stone Henge pop into my mind as soon as I saw the picture.
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It's not a stretch at all: they kind of come from the same people.
Here's an in between picture taken on the moors:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/9817 (http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/9817)
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"Barrymore's only indication had been that the stranger lived in one of these abandoned huts, and many hundreds of them are scattered throughout the length and breadth of the moor. But I had my own experience for a guide since it had shown me the man himself standing upon the summit of the Black Tor. That, then, should be the centre of my search. From there I should explore every hut upon the moor until I lighted upon the right one"
Watson decides to explore on his own. Watson best be careful!!
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(http://www.legendarydartmoor.co.uk/images/Grimpen3.gif)
"It was after a visit to the mires that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got the inspiration for the Grimpen Mire which was the haunt for the infamous hound which was central to his plot in The Hound of the Baskervilles. Many Sherlock Holmes enthusiasts make the pilgrimage here to see for themselves the eerie Grimpen Mire, indeed some folk actually think of the place as the actual Grimpen Mire. "
"The hunter homeward speeds in haste,
Ere fogs o'ertake him on the waste;
And if to Foxtor mires he roam,
He'll bid a long adieu to home;
A dreary shroud is o'er his head,
A yawning swamp around him spread;
Spell-bound and lost he ventures on
One fatal step - and all is done;
Hopeless he struggles, vain his throes,
Deeper and deeper down he goes !
The raven claps her ebon wing,
His dirge the howling winds may sing,
And mists will spread the last sad pall
O'er that dark grave unknown to all".
Dartmoor Days - Edward William Lewis Davis - 1863[/b]
Watson best be careful!!
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Dartmoor is thought to have been inhabited for over 5000 years, and my quote : -
At the centre of Dartmoor National Park are the High Moors. This is good walking,
cycling and pony trekking country. The main Tourist Information Centre for the National
Park is in Princetown. Close by is Dartmoor Prison, originally constructed for prisoners
of war during the Napoleonic wars, now used as a high security prison.
Postbridge is the site of the largest of Dartmoor's clapper bridges; these granite structures have been used by farmers and tin miners since medieval times. To the north east lies Grimspound, a Bronze Age village consisting of 24 circular huts; the finest example of Dartmoor's early settlements.
To the southwest is Hound Tor, an area rich in myths and legends and thought to be the
inspiration of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's novel "The Hound of the Baskervilles". To the
north is the pretty village of Widecombe-in-the-Moor, which holds an annual fair in
September, thought to be the birthplace of the folk song "Widecombe Fair".
- - - was taken from the following link : -
http://www.aboutbritain.com/articles/dartmoor-national-park.asp
Brian.
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Clapper Bridges - - -
These were the original "stepping stones" across streams and shallow rivers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapper_bridge#Examples
Brian.
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BILL, if you thought Combe-Tracey was an odd name, what did you think of the real 'Ditsworthy Warren', or 'Grimspound'?
'Clapper bridges' is an entirely new term or me. Thanks for explaining that they are stepping stones, Bryan. I was trying to figure out what a 'clapper' bridge would be. Now I suppose they just 'clapped down' some stones. ;)
I'm trusting Watson to be careful. He is, after all, an old Army man.
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I'm trusting Watson to be careful. He is, after all, an old Army man.
Yes, but he is impulsive as well as brave.
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'Ditsworthy Warren', or 'Grimspound'? 'Clapper bridges'
Babi and Bryan, I often wonder how these British names came into being. I believe some are family names given to towns or other.
Clapper bridges is not so bad but Ditworthy Warren, now that’s something else.
PatH, yes, in other Sherlock Holmes stories Watson has acted on impulse.
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Names! Lovely old names and I am so enjoying them. And "CLAPPER" bridges! We've learned much and enjoyed every bit of it.
BRIAN, I looked at that quiz, too involved, I would have to go back and read and study the story all over again. When you are, as I am, reading 2-3 books at a time you discover that there is a limit to the number of wrinkles and crannies in the brain.
Thanks, Bill, for that poem. I was surprised to read - "A yawning swamp around him spread; Spell-bound and lost he ventures on - One fatal step - and all is done."
There were swamps on the moors?
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PATH: I loved seeing Bovey tracey: the inspiration for Doyle's vollage. I especially loved this: " William de Tracey built original church to expiate guilt for the murder of Thomas a Becket."
So this town was already associated with murder!!!
I too was shocked to see Sir Henry murdered -- out of character for Doyle. For all the creepiness, only the bad get punished, the good survive.
BABI: wait til you find out the meaning of the one boot. I NEVER would have guessed.
ELLA: I'm guessing that "mire" is British for swamp.
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Brian, thanks for the quiz, I took it but found not place for the answers and might have missed one or two.
Thanks for the pictures of the moor and the stones en al. I have been to stonehedge.
You all have added so much to the book as usual :).
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Henge - - - as in Stonehenge : -
This is another fine old English word,
In archaeological terms, a henge is usually defined as a circular or oval area enclosed by a bank and an internal ditch. This distinguishes them from defensive enclosures, where the ditch would be on the outside (and the bank probably topped by a wooden palisade). The distinction is not a hard and fast one, however: Stonehenge does not have an internal ditch and some henge monuments have ditches both inside and outside the bank.
Brian
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Britain is sprinkled with prehistoric stone monuments like Stonehenge and the neolithic huts and the standing stones looming down on the dead wicked Sir Hugo. They have an odd creepiness to them, as well as legends attached to some of them, so, for an English audience, this would add considerably to the atmosphere of the story.
I was lucky enough to visit Stonehenge in the 1950s, when you could still wander freely among the stones, and it was pretty unforgettable.
Ditsworthy Warren: I don't know where "Ditsworthy" comes from, but "Warren" comes from the medieval rabbit warrens there. Not natural burrows, but places where they raised rabbits for food. If you follow some of the links posted far enough you find the pictures of the remaining stone warrens, unusually well preserved.
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Hi Everyone,
Sorry I haven't been posting, but I have been down for about a week. I just got caught up on the posts, and thank you for all the great comments and sites.
I am reading the book along with you all and am enjoying it tremendously, but now have to play catch-up.
Evelyn
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Glad you're feeling better, EVELYN. It's no fun being ill. Enjoy the rest of the story; we are about to meet the terrible hound of the Baskervilles.
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My O.E.D. cites an Anglo French word, "clappier" meaning a heap of stones as one root word for clapper. The word "clapper" apparently is applied to many things but this seems to be the closest to why it is called a Clapper Bridge. It is a heap of stones laid across a stream. Some of those stones weigh tons--can you imagine what a labor it was to transport them and place them? Probably with nothing but horsepower and manpower and perhaps some sort of crude leverage system.
I'm falling behind with the story. I haven't finished Ch. 10 yet and in this discussion we should be talking about 11-15. I must find some time today to catch up!
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I have been looking, without success, for the answers to the Rats of Sumatra quiz which I posted earlier, but I found a "clickable" quiz on our book which you may wish to try : -
http://www.triv.net/html/Users1/u3932.htm
Brian
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I'm a little hampered in saying anything because I've finished and not everyone has, and I don't want to spoil things for any lucky soul who is reading this for the first time. Where is everyone?
But I have one question we can all think about: how fair do you think Doyle was, and how much do you think it matters?
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Pat - - - you said earlier that you had already taken Dr Schwarz's quiz on the Hound of the Baskervilles. Did you find out the correct answers? The quiz was originally posted in 2007, and it mentioned that "The answers will be posted - - - next week".
I have searched the net without success ( I was going to say without avail - but I've run out of that commodity!)
I printed out my answers and would like to check them.
Brian.
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I'll check them from the book as soon as I get a chance, probably later today.
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Evelyn, good to hear from you.
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"For a moment or two I sat breathless, hardly able to believe my ears. Then my senses and my voice came back to me, while a crushing weight of responsibility seemed in an instant to be lifted from my soul. That cold, incisive, ironical voice could belong to but one man in all the world.
"Holmes!" I cried -- "Holmes!"
"Come out," said he, "and please be careful with the revolver."
Chapter 12 opens with Holmes revealing himself to Watson on the moor.
I felt Doyle did a subtle and masterful job of bringing the reader along by writing the middle section of the novel without the presences of Sherlock Holmes. Through the rest of the characters from Watson, Sir Henry, the Barrymores, etc, Conan Doyle was able to create the moody and mysterious atmosphere of The Hound of the Baskervilles without Sherlock.
Do you believe the story would have been better or not as good if Holmes had accompanied Watson and Sir Henry from London to Baskerville Hall?
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Not as good. I like the change of tone when Watson is working by himself versus with Homes
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I agree with you, Joan. And the atmosphere of gloom , mystery, suspicion, and terror wouldn't build up so smoothly if Holmes had been there detecting.
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(http://etext.virginia.edu/images/modeng/public/DoyHoun/Doy2H242.gif)
The discussion of The Hound of the Baskervilles will end Friday, January 23rd.
I feel it would be well to use the remaining days to discuss the end of the story, focusing our thoughts on chapter Fourteen, aptly named "The Hound of the Baskervilles." Also it would be well to consider the Stapletons of Merripit House and their relationship to each other.
In chapter fourteen Conan Doyle calls forth a state of extreme emotions and feelings in the characters of the story as the Hound is laid to rest
The edition of my book contains Chapter 15, "A Retrospection." So if any of you would care to linger on a few days past Jan, 23rd. I'll be here for you.
Bill H
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I took the quiz on our story, and did fine up to the point where it asked what
Holmes said that would sound odd today. I didn't remember him saying any of those things, and picked the wrong one.
I agree with Pat and JoanK, keeping Holmes out of the picture during most of the book worked out beautifully.
The Stapletons of Merripit house have been an odd pair from the beginning. Our little butterfly chaser is far too possessive of his sister, and she seems to be conflicted between loyalty to him and a desire to protect Sir Henry. Which has to suggest that Stapleton is a threat to Sir Henry, doesn't it?
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Halloa! Babi - - - did you try the first quiz ? It had 20 questions and was a more thorough test of one's knowledge of the book. It even had one extra bonus question.
I am waiting for Pat to post the site where we can check the answers.
I think we should definitely talk about the Retrospective chapter, as Conan Doyle cheats a little by bringing up clues that were not mentioned in the body of the book.
Overall, it is my favourite novellette, and is extremely neatly crafted. Dr Watson gets more opportunity to shine than he does in any of the others with the possible exception of the death of Moriarty and Holmes himself.
Brian.
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Babi, I did the same thing you did on that quiz, which put me into a loop I could only get out of by exiting the site. Then I went back in and got all the questions.
Brian's first quiz, which is in Post #125, is much more interesting. I'm working on checking the answers now. Shall I post them here, or email them to you, Brian? I have issues with question 1.
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The Retrospective Chapter is not optional, it's a standard ending for detective stories, in which the detective and all the survivors sit down together and he explains everything. You get a chance to see all the clues you missed, and learn all the detective's reasoning, which he has been hiding from you in order to make the story more suspenseful. We definitely should discuss it.
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Pat - - - I would be happy either way, I just would like to see if I made 100%. ;D
Is there a URL for the answers page?
I don't think I had a problem with the first question; Sherlock Holmes had already deduced that Dr Mortimer was likely to be young, he was just surprised to see that he was tall, thin, and slovenly.
Brian.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/baskervilles/Baskervillescvr2.jpg) | The Hound of the
Baskervilles
by
A. Conan Doyle "Sherlock Holmes' most famous case, the Hound of the Baskervilles, was set on foggy Dartmoor, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle got much of the inspiration for the book from real-life people and places - as well as folklore.
The first episodes of Sherlock Holmes' best known adventure - were published in The Strand Magazine starting in August 1901." http://classiclit.about.com |
Links:
Free Online Version - The Hound of the Baskervilles (http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/DoyHoun.html)
Official web site ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Literary Estate. (http://www.sherlockholmesonline.org/l)
Sydney Paget Drawings: Archive (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8950/holmes/paget.htm)
The Sherlock Holmes Museum (http://www.sherlock-holmes.co.uk/home.htm)
Schedule:
Jan. 2nd --- Jan. 8th Chapters: 1 -- 5
Jan. 9th --- Jan. 15th Chapters: 6 -- 10
Jan. 16th --- Jan. 22st Chapters 11 -- 15
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/baskervilles/S.HolmesCd.jpg) |
Discussion Leaders: BillH (Leyube@aol.com) and fairanna (fairanna@verizon.net)
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Here are my researched answers to the quiz:
WARNING: PLOT SPOILERS! Don't read this if you haven't finished the book!
1. d (see my note)
2. e
3. b
4. a
5. a
6. b
7. a
8. a
9. e
10. a (see my note)
11. e
12. c
13. d
14. a
15. d
16. d
17. a
18. b
19. c
20. e
Bonus Question: Murphy was the drunken Gypsy horse-dealer who was out on the moor when Sir Charles died, and "thought he heard cries"
Note to 1.--Holmes wasn't surprised at any of these things; Watson was.
Note to 10--Elizabeth was a Baskerville sister mentioned in the family document. that's a clever question, because Mrs. Hudson is often mentioned in the stories.
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I got 3 questions wrong, plus I had no idea who Murphy was. After I had looked up a number of the answers, it occurred to me that I could just do a word search on the online document (Duh).
I posted the answers, then proofread them and corrected some mistakes, so if you saw them in the first minute or so, look again.
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PatH, thank you for posting the heading.
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Pat - - - thanks for posting the answers to the quiz - you certainly have a point,
it WAS Watson who was surprised. Sherlock would NEVER admit to being surprised.
Brian.
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So the "Man on the Tor" reveals himself as Holmes, and fills Watson in on some of what he has found out. Stapleton's "sister" is really his wife! I think the clues to that were more or less fair. Several people saw that the tone of the relationship was wrong for brother-sister, and Stapleton certainly acts oddly in keeping Sir Henry at arms length from her.
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No, Brian, I didn't look at the first quiz. I think that day my time was too short for detours.
It's too bad for Sir Henry that the sister is actually the wife. He was falling in love with her, and this shock added to the trauma he suffered.
I certainly agree that the retrospective chapter should be discussed. Where else could we lodge our complaints, if any? ;)
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Chapter 15
A Retrospection
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"It was the end of November, and Holmes and I sat, upon a raw and foggy night, on either side of a blazing fire in our sitting-room in Baker Street."
Even though it was a raw and foggy night, the blazing fire in their sitting-room presents a cozy scene.
Folks, we have all had our fun with the quiz. But there is only today and tomorrow for the discussion. So would you please limit your thoughts and posts to and for Chapter 15?
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I go back to thew question I asked earlier: was Doyle "fair" with the reader? I agree that the relationship between the Stapletons was "wrong" and should have been a clue. And the one shoe -- only one was needed to give the dog for scent, but the new boot wouldn't do for that -- he had to go back and get an old one. That was really clever.
But everything else, Holmes found out outside of the book and just told us about. His clever deductions were mostly on peripheral things and didn't give him the solution. NO FAIR!
Who agrees with me?
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I agree, Joan, it's an excellent horror story and suspense story, but the detection part isn't fair.
As you said, the women seem totally dependent on the men. Their relationship seems to be the only thing that matters to them. Laura Lyons has been promised marriage by Stapleton, and in spite of the fact that she knows him to be capable of murder and suspects he has actually killed Sir Charles, she still wants the marriage, and only betrays him when she learns he is already married. Mrs. Stapleton is completely subservient to her husband, and only finds the courage to turn against him when she learns he has courted another woman.
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Holmes is a showoff: When he examines the anonymous warning, Holmes looks at it closely, and is startled. He later explains he was "...conscious of a faint smell of the scent known as white jessamine. There are seventy-five perfumes, which it is very necessary that a criminal expert should be able to distinguish from each other, and cases have more than once within my own experience depended upon their prompt recognition."
Perhaps that's true, but since the only conclusion drawn here is that a woman sent the note, it's irrelevant.
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Hello Bill. I had finished the story some time ago but went back to Chapter 15 for a re-read and agree with Pat when she said - "Several people saw that the tone of the relationship was wrong for brother-sister."
Yes, I remember thinking that when I first read the story. I am struck by the part women play, particularly Mrs. Stapleton, she is practically the whole plot.
Does anyone in this story have a first name?
"He had hoped that his wife might lure Sir Charles to his ruin, but here she proved unexpectedly independent. She would not endeavour to entangle the old gentleman in a sentimental attachment which might deliver him over to his enemy. Threats and even, I am sorry to say, blows refused to move her.
His wife had some inkling of his plans; but she had such a fear of her husband -- a fear founded upon brutal ill-treatment -- that she dare not write to warn the man whom she knew to be in danger. If the letter should fall into Stapleton's hands her own life would not be safe. Eventually, as we know, she adopted the expedient of cutting out the words which would form the message, and addressing the letter in a disguised hand. It reached the baronet, and gave him the first warning of his danger.
It may possibly recur to your memory that when I examined the paper upon which the printed words were fastened I made a close inspection for the watermark. In doing so I held it within a few inches of my eyes, and was conscious of a faint smell of the scent known as white jessamine. There are seventy-five perfumes, which it is very necessary that a criminal expert should be able to distinguish from each other, and cases have more than once within my own experience depended upon their prompt recognition. The scent suggested the presence of a lady, and already my thoughts began to turn towards the Stapletons. Thus I had made certain of the hound, and had guessed at the criminal before ever we went to the west country. "
A good story, Bill, a very good discussion. Thank you.
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Several people saw that the tone of the relationship was wrong for brother-sister."
Ella, yes I agree with all of you who found it difficult accept a brother and sister relationship between the Stapletons. For instance Holmes gives this account in the last chapter:
"He married (Stapleton) Beryl Garcia, one of the beauties of Costa Rica..."
Now in my humble opinion, Beryl Garcia was of Hispanic ancestry, while Stapleton was British born and of Caucasian ancestry. Surely the neighbors could see the racial difference betwen the pair. Now it could be assumed that they were half brother and sister but that would be a bit of a stretch.
Ella, you asked if anyone in the story have first names. Well, I read Rodger is Stapletons first name.
He was named after his father Rodger Baskerville who was the brother of Sir Charles Baskerville. However, he(Stapleton) saw fit to change his name on two separate occasions.
Beryl is the first name of Stapleton's (I still call him that) wife. Of course Laura is Laura Lyons and James was the first name of Dr. Mortimer, however, after the first page in the novel I don't believe Mortimer"s first name was used again.
I can't recall the first names of the Barrymores perhaps someone can jog my memory.
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A hound it was, an enormous coal-black hound, but not such a hound as mortal eyes have ever seen. Fire burst from its open mouth, its eyes glowed with a smouldering glare, its muzzle and hackles and dewlap were outlined in flickering flame. Never in the delirious dream of a disordered brain could anything more savage, more appalling, more hellish be conceived than that dark form and savage face which broke upon us out of the wall of fog.
With this passage, Conan Doyle gave a chilling description of the hound. Perhaps this was a bit better than Sir Hugo's account.
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Of course, the clue about the note being from a woman was not shared with us, which might be considered unfair. On the other hand, telling us up front would have been a tip-off to look most closely at the available women. What do you think? Would the story have been as much of a mystery if you had known that fact from the beginning?
Bill, your point about the different backgrounds of Stapleton and his wife if a good one, but not a hard and fast rule. Some people of Spanish background are quite fair, and there are Brits who are not of blond complexion. It is fairly common in a household for children to resemble different sides of the family.
Putting phosphorescent material around the hounds mouth was an ingenious way of magnifying the horror. No wonder Sir Charles, already fearful of the 'curse', had a heart attack. Just seeing such a huge creature, a mastiff/hound crossbreed, would be frightening enough for me.
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Thanks - - -
Thanks all round. To Bill and Pat for their leading us. To Joan and anyone else who helped to give us a venue. To all the readers who submitted their views on the book.
Thanks to Conan Doyle for the book itself.
It was a great wee book and very ably discussed.
Brian.
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A few loose ends. Indeed, Babi, Watson comments on the different coloring of Stapleton and his "sister", saying you would hardly think them to be related. If we had known a woman wrote the warning note, it would be a dead giveaway, given the dearth of female characters. Holmes had a good excuse for keeping quiet at the time, though, since he didn't yet know enough to know who might be guilty and didn't want to show what he knew.
What did Dr. Mortimer's wife do while Mortimer went around the world with Sir Henry (at least a half year)? For that matter, who took care of Mortimer's practice?
My book points out that phosphorous is poisonous to dogs, but offers an alternative chemical--barium sulphide.
Brian, your kind thanks are misplaced in my case. I was not helping to lead the discussion, just an enthusiastic participant, because I love the book so much. As you say, a great wee book.
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Now I'll make my thanks.
Thank you, Bill and Fairanna, for making this discussion happen.
Bill, I can see you love the book as I do, and your enthusiasm warmed the discussion. And we had a great group of fellow discussers. I hope I'll see all of you in future discussions.
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It just occurred to me that I never got around to renting the Basil Rathbone movie. If I do, I'll report on it in Books Into Movies.
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Thanks so much, BILL & FAIRANNA, for a most pleasurable discussion. I have so missed this sort of interchange of observations and opinions. So many good posts and interesting sidebars. 'Good show', as the British might say.
Babi
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I don't think I deserve any thanks I still haven't finished reading the book ..I had company coming and had to clean everything for their arrival ...and they stayed four days and the bathroom they used sprang a leak so I had water coming down a cupboard in my kitchen ...I have had to wash everything in the cupboard and the shelves etc....now I cant put anything back until I have a plumber come by..AND I had a doctor's appointment and the cataract in my left eye will be removed (thank goodness since it is my nearsighted eye ..the other one having a cataract 20 years ago and was replaced with a distance lens,...so I have had headaches trying to read since the nearsighted eye couldn't see the print) Sounds like a plot for a mystery itself. I am surprised that my feelings about the solution was right...it has been YEARS since I read this book and I cant believe I was still annoyed by Doyle's solution...HA we Irish never forget!...MY THANKS TO ALL WHO KEPT THE DISCUSSION GOING since I wasn't doing my share...
After my cataract is over I will be ready to start with you another mystery ..one I can fully participate as I should....I have to use a magnifying glass to read now but still get a headache since my eye is trying to do its job....until the next dead body drops I am always, fairanna
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Today will bring to a close the discussion of the Hound of the Baskervilles.
I thank all of you who participated in the discussion. Your thoughtful and interesting posts made this a successful discussion. I also thank those who followed the discussion but did not post. I'm sure you folks enjoyed the discussion as much as I did.
The last time I checked we had 876 views of this discussion. Imagine all those folks following along. Well, now they know the web site of SeniorLearn and that makes me very happy. I'm sure some were logging on to listen to the audio of the Sherlock stories the link of which can be found in the heading. Sherlock and Watson guided them to our web site
I wish all of you a HEALTHY AND HAPPY NEW YEAR,
Bill H
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Thanks, Bill, Fairanna, Pat H., Brian, JoanK and all you others who participated so fully.
I enjoyed the book and this discussion very much.
Evelyn
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Oh, my, FAIRANNA, you did have your hands full. I'm surprised you were able to come in at all! Go get that eye taken care of, and we'll watch for your triumphant return. :)
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Thank you so much, BILL for your usual great discussion. It has been so much fun sharing this little classic with my friends.