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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
DIscussion Leaders: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
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Welcome to our discussion of "Kim". We won't really get started until January 1, but come in, say hello, tell us you're with us, and chat if you like, or share some Indian snacks.
I've loved this book all my life, and I think it has a lot to offer--colorful, exotic setting, adventure and intrigue, and the unlikely affection of a boy and a Lama.
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I'm also one who read "Kim" as a child, and loved it, picturing myself sitting on the gun Zam-Zammah above. But I haven't read it since. Now I'm ready to look at the book as an adult. Come and wander with us through the sights and sounds of India and meet it's various people. I can smell the spices already. Join us now, so we know how many tickets to buy on the trans-India railway. I'll get the food ready.
What DO people eat for snacks in India?
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I hate to admit it, but I have never read "Kim" but will try to do so now. I am listening to a book about Sherlock Holmes and his wife, Mary Russell. They are in India searching for Kim as he was a friend of Holmes many years before. The author has cast him as a monk who has joined a Dahli Lama's group in Tibet in the '20's. He is also a spy for the British CIA. Yes, its another Laurie King book and great fun to read.
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Yes, please reserve me a ticket on the trans-India railway--first class by all means!!
I haven't read Kim since I was in high school-umpteen years ago. I am really looking forward to this discussion. Meanwhile, I hope to hear from you at the Holiday Open House.
Sally
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Have never read the book but am prepared with a used - very worn - paperback from Amazon.
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Hi, ANNIE, SALEN, and KIDSAL. Our leader, PatH, is winging her way today back to Maryland from visiting me in California, but will be here tomorrow (we had a great time). But I'm here, excited about our journy. The train doesn't leave the station til January, but find a seat.
I've just started to reread the book, and am enjoying it even more than I expected. If any of you haven't got the book, you might want to pick up one with footnotes. Kipling throws in names of places and people, assuming you know what/where they are. Most of the time, it doesn't matter whether you do or not-- he does it to give a sense of the wide variety of people and places that Kim meets every place in India. But be sure to tell us if you want any of them tracked down.
We are looking for a good map of India to put in the heading. And I still haven't found a good Indian snack to eat on the journey. I'm going to avoid betal nuts!
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I'm with you, JoanK! Betel nuts stain the teeth something fierce, so I've heard! All I know to snack on is naan. Naan is good, but something to go with it is needed...
Count me in this discussion - but I can't get in until 1/5. This is a hectic time of year. Surely I've read Kim, but right now I just remember Rikki-Tikki-Tavi.
Here's a map - large, but could be reduced. Or you might want to put a small clickable map that will lead you to this larger one in the heading?
(http://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/india/india_map.gif)
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JoanP: your welcom whenever you can come. We'll all be busy at the turn of the year, so won't have gotten far by the 5th.
Good map of India! Yes definately a link in the heading to a larger map -- we'll want to read the names of the sections. I'll check whether Pat has one she wants to use first.
Note:You saved me!! We were doing Saturday's crossword puzzle, and one clue was part of "The Jungle Book" I thought it was "Rikki=Tikki-Tavi, but it didn't fit. I'd forgotten it had double kks!
SALLY: see you in Holiday Open House. Maybe we can find a good Indian snack. KIDSAL: I love those worn old books from my past.
ANNIE: I love those Laurie Child books narrated by Mrs. Sherlock Holmes. If you wonder who could possibly stand to be married to him, I think Child got it right. The first in the series is "The Beekeepers Daughter". What is the name of the one about Kim?
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I don't remember if I ever read Kim when I was younger but will definitely join you all in January. I am looking forward to reading and discussing it with this good group.
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great.
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Wow! Off to a great start. Annie, Sally, Kidsal, JoanP, Marcie, and the fearless leaders. Welcome, all. I agree with JoanK that a book with notes is a good idea, though not necessary. It's also available online. I'll post links soon. And for anyone wanting to use a library book. I'm guessing there will be no waiting list. ;)
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Online text of Kim is available from anyone of the 3 links in the heading above.
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Kipling is one of my favorites for telling stories so I'll be happy to reread Kim and share the discussion.
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That's great, Jackie, I'm looking forward to seeing you. IMHO, the book can stand a lot of rereading.
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I'm here! Haven't read Kim, nor do I remember actually reading any Kipling except Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. I did see the movie when I was a youngster. It is hard to believe that Dean Stockwell (who played Kim) was acting before I was born. He has a very long list of acting credits to his name.
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When was Kim published - I'll guess 100 years ago? Or more? I'm thinking the configuration of that map has changed since then. Maybe we need to find an older map than the one I found. What do you think?
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JoanP, you're absolutely right. Kim was published in 1901, and some of it takes place in what is now Pakistan. I'm on the trail for a suitable map.
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Frybabe, I'm glad to see you.
It's interesting that people remember "Rikki Tikki Tavi" but don't remember "The Jungle Book", of which it is a part. Have any of you read "The Jungle Book" or "Just So Stories"?
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I've read most if not all of Kipling, both prose and poetry. Did I say that I like his stories?
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I have read most of Kipling's books and stories, but it's been a long time. I am looking forward to our session on Kim.
I have been trying to find recipes for Indian snack foods. I haven't eaten much Indian food and I live in a small town and probably can not find some of the spices that the recipes call for. Does anyone have favorite Indian foods or recipes? I am always up for new things!
Sally
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WELCOME, SALEN, hop on board. So far, no one's come up with any foods, but don't worry -- we'll find something really good.
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Quote: "So far, no one's come up with any foods, but don't worry -- we'll find something really good.'
We could always send Kim out for something. Just look what he brings back for the hungry lama, in the lama's begging bowl.
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Good idea, Jonathan! Are you with us?
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Chana Masala is chickpeas (garbanzo beans), commonly known as Kabuli chana in masala gravy curry sauce. It is staple throughout India but very popular among Punjabi dhaba food. It is also known as chole.
For thicker chana masala gravy, add few pieces/tablespoon of boiled/mashed potatoes.For eaeier chana masala recpie, if do not have access to some of the spice, make chana masala without them.
Ingredients
2 cups cooked chickpeas or canned chickpeas
¾ cup onions (chopped)
2/3 cup tomatoes (chopped)
1 teaspoon garam masala or chana masala
1 teaspoon garlic
½ teaspoon ginger
1 tablespoon oil
Salt to taste
Optional
½ teaspoon cardamom (if not using chana masala)
1 teaspoon amchur (if not using chana masala)
1 pinch of hing
½ teaspoon hot red chili powder (according to taste)
2 bay leaves
1 medium boiled potato (diced)
Garnish
Few leaves fresh cilantro leaves (chopped)
Anybody interested????
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Yes, Alf, I'm very interested, but I'd like a few details about cooking. I'm guessing that you make the sauce by cooking the onions and garlic in the oil, then adding the tomatoes and spices. Is that right, or am I going to eat a teaspoon of raw garlic? Fortunately I have no social plans for the next two days. :)
Some translations: garam masala is a mixture of spices. I get mine from Penzeys, and the ingredients are coriander, black pepper, cardamom,cinnamon, charnushka, caraway, cloves, ginger, and nutmeg. There are many recipes, and you could leave out whatever you don't have. It's sweet, not hot. Amchur is mango powder, which has a sour taste, and you can substitute lemon juice. Hing is asafoetida. It has a very foul odor, but when you sizzle a pinch of it in the oil before adding the onions and garlic, it turns mild and adds a pleasant taste. I can't imagine any substitute, but it's optional.
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Sure, Joan. I'd like to tag along when you hit the Grand Trunk Road with KIM. The book made a great impression on me so many years ago. Rereading the book would be the stuff of great nostalgia, as well as being very contemporary with the Great Game still being played.
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I'm glad, Jonathan; I don't think you'll regret it.
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I 've never read "Kim", and I am looking forward to our discussion. I hope it is a more upbeat book, than the last discussion book I read. I am ready for a good, happy novel.
Sheila
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What fun, ANNIE! What is the title of the Laurie King book?
Of course I'm coming along. I'm looking forward to reading
KIM with older eyes. (Old age is respected in India, right?)
It does look like we have a terrific group of participants. I'm
really looking forward to this.
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Welcome, Shiela and Babi!
Yes, with the group we've got, it's going to be great.
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With all the friends already assembled here, this will be a great discussion. I am so glad I found the book among my treasures. The hardcover is by MacMillan and Company of Canada Limited but does not list the year of publication. The font is wonderfully easy to read, an important factor for me, because my vision is deteriorating at an alarming rate.
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Hi JoanK and Pat! I'll be here I hope. And I hope I will no longer be in a rehab center by then but home and driving to the Library. However, I see the text is online so I can follow along.
DO YOU ALL SEE PAKISTAN AND AFGHANISTAN ON THAT MAP? DID ANYONE EVER ENVISION HOW INVOLVED WE WOULD BE IN THE REGION?
A few years ago we discussed Ghandi's autobiography, a great discussion and I remember his (Ghandi's) efforts to save Pakistan from becoming independent.
Thanks you two for bringing this book discussion to all of us, I am looking forward to it!
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ELLA: I too remember that. I wonder how different would the history of the regeon have been if he had succeeded.
But now we go back before all that happened. Those of you who were in the Raj discussion will know much more about that period than I do.
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Ella, I 'm so glad you are healing. My old school friend in Germany also took a fall and suffered an open fracture. She spent three months in the hospital and in rehab clinics. She's been home only two weeks.
When Kipling wrote Kim, published in 1900, the British Empire was at its height. Two world wars exhausted the British. Tensions between the Hindu majority and the Muslim minority had been festering for decades. Gandhi wanted independence for the entire Indian subcontinent but was unable to prevent the Partition of the nation, based on religious demographics.
The partition was promulgated in the Indian Independence Act 1947 and became effective on August 14 and 15, respectively, 1947 under the last British Viceroy, Lord Louis Mountbatten. Two sovereign states were formed, the Dominion of Pakistan (later Islamic Republic of Pakistan) and the Union of India (later Republic of India).
The partition included the geographical division of the Bengal province and the Punjab region, parts of which were allotted to Pakistan. A massive migration began amid violence and bloodshed, more than 12 million people were displaced and estimates of those killed range from several hundred thousand to a million.
The rulers of the Princely States had hoped to retain a modicum of independence but had to choose to accede to one or the other of the new dominions. The period between 1942 and 11947 is the subject of Paul Scott's The Raj Quartet we recently completed. The tetralogy is a masterpiece and a a heart breaker.
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Traude and Ella, welcome! You will both add a lot. You can enjoy this book without knowing the history, but it's much better if you do, and I hope we'll get into that somewhat.
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I didn't spend nearly that long in hospitel and rehab -- can't remember exactly, but less than a month.
My ignorance: of couse "The Raj Quartet" doesn't cover the period of Kim: that was much earlier. I'll be learning along with you.
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JoanK, forgive me, but I don't think we need to be concerned with what happened after WW II.
Let's just enjoy Kim and learn from it what that time in history was like - the glory days of the British Empire.
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What a fine group coming together to read KIM.
I'm of the opinion that one doesn't need much, if any, background reading to enjoy this book. Unless one also feels that some background reading would enhance ones reading of something like Huckleberry Finn. I dug out an old video of KIM, with Dean Stockwell, and it was fun to watch.
So what am I reading? TOURNAMENT OF SHADOWS, by Meyer and Brysac. Its subtitle is The Great Game and the Race for Empire in Central Asia. This is interesting. KIM gets six entries in the index. Kipling is cited a dozen times. So, perhaps KIM would serve as background reading for an appreciation of The Great Game, among other things.
Sure enough. The authors suggest as much in their prologue. It seems that Allen Dulles, fresh out of Princeton, set sail for India in 1914 to take up a teaching position at a missionary college. On board, 'Dulles read Kipling's KIM for the first time. Dulles went on to a career in intelligence, serving as Director of Central Intelligence in the 50s and 60s. And 'the novel was at Dulles's bedside when he died in 1969.'
Now then. What novel would you like to leave bedside, when you find your river of enlightenment?
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Tournament of Shadows is on my list. Thanks, Jonathan.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
DIscussion Leaders: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
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Hi everyone; I'll come along too. Elizabeth
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One never knows the influence a book will have. Thanks for the Dulles'
story, Jonathan. As to what novel I would like at my bedside in my last
days,...I'd have to give that considerable thought.
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Now then. What novel would you like to leave bedside, when you find your river of enlightenment?
Remarkably interesting question, Jonathan, not too easy to answer. It ought to be one of Jane Austen's novels, but given my actual bedtime reading habits, it will be some piece of Space Opera, and I will have gone to my reward while fighting my way across the galaxy.
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Welcome, Elizabeth! It's great to have you with us. Have you read "Kim" before?
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Indeed I have read Kim before--on a regular basis. Allen Dulles fared badly in a history I just read about U.S. and Middle East relations dating back to Washington's time--Power, Faith and Fantasy by Michael Oren--so I'm not sure I'm happy about his invasion of my "favorites" space.
I'm pretty sure I'll have one of the Aubrey/Maturin (Patrick O'Brian) novels at my bedside when The Next Big Event occurs. It's a 20-volume series and I join the gang every night before closing my eyes.
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I'm pretty sure I'll have one of the Aubrey/Maturin (Patrick O'Brian) novels at my bedside when The Next Big Event occurs. It's a 20-volume series and I join the gang every night before closing my eyes.
That would probably have been my answer several years ago, but now I've read them all, some of them more than once, and they're getting a rest. Come to think of it, they're still on a shelf above my bed.
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Another Patrick O'Brian fan!! And a Kim fan as well!! WELCOME, WELCOME.
Do you have the book that PatH has, giving recipes for all the food mentioned by O'Brian? (I just came from the Books and Food discussion (holiday Open house), so you see where my mind is).
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Uh oh, I just found two more books I "need" to buy. A book I am now reading references the Crimean War. It is a war and place I know very, very little about. When I decided to find some images of the area I ran across Fanny Duberly. She rode along side her husband and the 8th Regiment all during the war and wrote a book about it called Crimean Journal.
What has this to do with Kim you ask? Well, as if this weren't enough excitement, she went along with her husband once again when his regiment was called up to India for the Sepoy Wars (1854ish?). Her book about that one is called Indian Journal.
Oh and I am now reading The Great Game: The Struggle for Empire in Central Asia by Peter Hopkirk while waiting on our January discussion. PatH, was that you who mentioned you are reading this also? I forget.
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Jonathan mentioned The Great Game and I've reserved it at the library. My library doesn't have Duberly's books.
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Johnathon's The Great Game is by a different author. The Great Game seems to be a popular title for books dealing with this area and period of time. There are several.
Barnes and Nobles has both book Duberly books and several others.
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Right, Frybabe. I'm reading the Hopkirk, and Jonathan is reading TOURNAMENT OF SHADOWS, by Meyer and Brysac, subtitled The Great Game and the Race for Empire in Central Asia.
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Tournament of Shadows is the one waiting at the library for me.
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It's great that a lot of us are reading background, but rest assured, everyone, that you don't have to know any of it to enjoy the book.
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I agree; the book stands alone quite well. When I read it first Afghanistan was only a name; some movies like Gunga Din, Tales of the Bengal Lancers, and others I can't recall, told about those mountains and the fierce tribesmen who lived and fought there. They would get mixed up in my brain with the movies about India starring Sabu (remember him?). Kim entices on many levels, and The Great Game is not the greatest (pardon the pun). Kim the character is most appealing to me, perhaps because I am a woman and always get hooked by the personal.
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Another wonderful novel about an English boy who grew up thinking he was Indian is The Far Pavilions by M.M. Kaye. I believe I love that book as much as I do Kim. He also becomes part of The Great Game as an adult.
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Has anyone seen the PBS preograms "The Story of India" that have been airing lately? I missed one last night.
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I don't see anything about India on the local PBS schedule. Would that be the Michael Wood 'In Search of India' doc, which was run here some time ago? It was very good.
What an enchanting storyteller Kipling is. I'm reading some of his other stuff, yesterday his story of the ghostly children in THEY, with Kipling obviously still mourning the loss of his little daughter. That put me into such a peculiar frame of mind, that I promptly had Kipling's ghost appear in a dream last night. With the most astounding request. Would I channel him into the forthcoming discussion of KIM. The consideration of this unusual proposal in the company of Kipling's ghost made for the most spine-tingling dream I have ever had. I had to decline. The honor was just too great. But I did let him know that we always relish the participation of the author in our discussions. It may come to pass while we're sojourning in India.
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He was a believer in faerie, wasn't he? We can only hope he drops in. What a treat it would be to hear his impressions of the current situation among India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
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Would I channel him into the forthcoming discussion of KIM.
JONATHAN, I swear I don't know whether this actually happened or is 'tongue in cheek'. I've had a lot of most illuminating dreams, but never a request from a ghost to be channeled! ??? :)
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Well, Jonathan, I was regretting that we would be unable to get author participation in this discussion, but perhaps Kipling's spirit will be with us after all. ;)
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Kipling wrote a number of ghost and horror stories. I have a big fat book of them, which includes "They"--indeed unforgettable. The one that impresses a lot of people is "The Mark of the Beast", but for some reason that one doesn't work for me.
He also wrote one Science Fiction short story: "With the Night Mail--A Tale of AD 2000". Written in 1905, it tells of a mail-delivery service by means of airplanes. It reads like some of his other short stories which are conversations between members of some group with their own jargon and rules.
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JONATHAN: it's called "The Story of India", but the narrator does look like Michael Wood, so it may be the old one recycled.
I hope Kipling does show up.
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I have found it really interesting to re read a book after many years ..So Kim is on its way from B&N plus a couple of others I CAN NEVER ORDER OR BUY JUST ONE BOOK<<<here it is a bit after 2 AM and I just finished a small book called A Creed County Christmas I enjoyed it .......pleasant , easy to read and rather nice story...I am in my nice story phase..I go though cycles ..and this is my nice story cycle But the best way to read a book is with others ..so I will be with you and see how much I recall when we begin....Hmm I am wondering who used to write stories about space and people there? because that just came to me And I read several of his works ...going to bed ...see you later..
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Welcome, Anna, it's good to have you with us.
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Hmm I am wondering who used to write stories about space and people there?
That fits a huge number of writers. Give us some more details.
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Maybe H G Wells?
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fairanna, it's great that you'll be joining the Kim discussion.
Is it Ray Bradbury, eg, Martian Chronicles, you have in mind?
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KIM has a fantastic spatial dimension. And there's no lack of people moving about in it.
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Pat, I like your choice of bedside reading. Galactic travels!!! We'll look for you among the stars.
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I've chosen to leave behind, bedside, my eight-volume set of John Kendrick Bangs' humorous writings. I had never heard of him until I found his A House-boat on the Styx, a first edition, at an antique fair. As the title suggests, one doesn't have to cross that river if one can afford a berth on the house-boat and party forever in the company of distinguished 'shades' of historical figures... George Washington, Socrates, Hamlet, Sir Walter, and on and on and on. Everything is fine until the wives come aboard and hi-jack the boat, which inevitably led to another volume, The Pursuit of the House-boat: Being Some Further Account of the Divers Doings of the Associated Shades, under the Leadership of Sherlock Holmes, Esq.
I know it sounds frivolous, and I had decided to go with The Sayings of Confucious, to make it seem like I hadn't wasted my life, but I believe Confucious is on the passenger list, so he's there for consultation.
For those who are unacquainted with Bangs, he was writing and made quite a noise as a contemporary of Kipling's. He was editor of one of the big popular periodicals. Methinks it was McCall's.
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Jonathan: Bangs sounds like a hoot. I haven't picked out my book yet.
ANNAFAIR: WELCOME, WELCOME. You're the perfect person to have along. You will be making friends with everyone we pass (and that's a LOT of people) and giving them cookies too.
Once you think of Kipling, you see him everywhere. I'm reading a detective story by Robin Paige (Murder at the Lizard), a husband/wife duo who write Victorian/Edwardian mysteries that include hisdtorical characters. This one is about Marconi and his efforts to get his wireless system working.
The characters mention that Kipling wrote a short story named "Wireless" about the new technology. In this story, the wireless proves to be able to channel messages from the dead, and a character is receiving new poems from the dead poet Byron.
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Stupid me. I forgot that they (Robin Paige) wrote a mystery with Kipling as a character.-- "Murder at Rottingdean". Unfortunately, the reason I forgot it was I thought it was the poorest of their mysteries.
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JoanK, don't tell me you've forgotten John Kendrick Bangs? A number of his books were kicking around the house when we were growing up. I remember "The Houseboat on the Styx" quite well.
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I just got down my old copy of Kim and see that I wrote in the front, "Kipling's first employer, William Rattigan--a founder of the Civil and Military Gazette, Lahore, India--was the model for Kim. His grandson, Sir Terence Rattigan, told Kipling that his grandfather was the son of an illiterate Irish private in the British Army in India whose son (William Rattigan) by some means, got to the H.S. in Agra in the 1850's, subsequently to King's College in Londen and Gottengen University. He became a successful lawyer with a "society" wife."
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Ah, sure, and these Irishmen can be real scrappers. Many an Irishman
hauled himself up by his own bootstraps and made something grand of himself. Our Irish immigrants were second only to the Germans in the
number who came here. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of us
could claim some Irish ancestry. May I introduce my paternal grandmother (died before I was born, sadly) Missoula Mineola Riley!
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PatH & JoanK I wasn't going to commit myself to Kim as I'll be busy during January - anyway I couldn't find my copy which is either buried on the shelves or has been spirited away by a son who denies all knowledge of it. Then today I fell over a copy of it at the library so naturally brought it home. So I guess I'm hooked though it's unlikely that I will do much more than lurk.
And yes, Babi the Irish sure did get around. My DH and I both have Irish forebears in the mix a few generations ago - as in fact, do most Aussies of my generation.
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Gumtree, it's good to have you with us, lurking or active.
Elizabeth, that's an interesting point about the model for Kim. I think we'll find out that the book is more based on fact than one might suppose.
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It's time to start my Kim prep so I'm looking at the different editions; did someone mention one with footnotes or annotations? Amazon has an interesting book, out in March this year, Kipling Sahib: India and the making of Rudyard Kipling, 1865-1900. My library doesn't have it so I may have to buy it. Jonathan mentioned Tournament of shadows : the great game and the race for empire in Central Asia / Karl E. Meyer & Shareen Blair Brysac which my library has so I checked it out.
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At this rate, you will all know more than I do by the time the discussion starts. Fine by me.
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My copy doesn't have footnotes, but I can always google. Actually, I seem to find 'Bing' come up most often in my searches nowadas. I love
researching, so that's all to the good.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimcvr3a.jpg) | ----- | Kim
by
Rudyard Kipling
You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/kim/kimgun4.jpg)
He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.
| |
SCHEDULE
January 1-8: Chapters 1-4
January 9-15: Chapters 5-8
January 16-22: Chapters 9-12
January 23-29: Chapters 13-15
January 30-31: Overview |
DIscussion Leaders:
JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Online Texts of Kim
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226) ~ The Literature Network (http://www.online-literature.com/kipling/kim/) ~ Read Books Online (http://www.readbookonline.net/title/206/)
Questions Week 1
1. Kim is called "little friend of all the world". What in his circumstances enables him to play this role? What in his character?
2. We see Kim serving two very different masters: Mahbub Ali, the horse-trader and spy, and the unworldly lama. Which do you find more interesting. Which do you think will have more influence on Kim's future (don't answer if you've read the book)? What attracts Kim to each, and each to Kim?
3. The descriptions of India in this section are very vivid. Which scene made the biggest impression on you?
4. There are very few women in Kim's world. What do the few women we see tell us about Kipling's idea of the role of women in India?
5. If you have read some background material, what is the battle for which 8000 British soldiers will be needed?
6. Why do you think this book is so fascinating for children? |
JoanP's post:
Babi...you'll going to be googling all over the place! There is so much there that is foreign. Those of you who think this book was written for children - think again! Am struggling with the introductory pages. Those of you who read the book in the past, would you mind sharing with us how old you were? And if you say 12 or 13, then my next question is - did you have footnotes?
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JoanP: I didn't read Kim as a child and, like you, question how much a 12 or 13 year old would get from the novel - even with footnotes. It's a very complex novel and needs careful and close reading - I think youngsters would read it in much the same way as they read Shakespeare at that age and simply take from it whatever they understand and read over any incomprehensible parts.
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JoanP, I don't really remember how old I was the first time I read Kim, but I doubt I was older than 12 or 13. Definitely no footnotes. I was very enthusiastic about it, but perhaps it was like reading Macbeth for the murders. I didn't feel bewildered, though.
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I read it as a child, too, and loved it. I'm sure there was a lot I missed, but I didn't feel that way.
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My copy says (only)
This book is copyrighted in all countries which are signatories of the Berne Convention
MACMILLAN AND COMPANY LIMITED
Little Essex Street London W C 2
also Bombay, Calcutta, Madras, Melbourne
THE MACMILLAN COMPANY OF CANADA LIMITED
Toronto
MANUFACTURED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
There's no other information; no book cover; no footnotes. I started to read the book in the early sixties
but gave up on it when my son was born in 1962. Time was a factor.
PatH, no doubt the book is based on facts and on Kipling's own experiences. But the times - indeed the very geography - were vastly different. The entire subcotinent was Indian. Part was administered by the British and known as British India, but large areas were autonomously governed princely states. There was no Pakistan yet.
Kipling died in 1936, three years before the outbreak of WW II.
Had he lived, what would he have thought and said about the ignominious wothdrawal of British troops in 1947? Indeed about the fall of the Empire?
Kim begins in the city of Lahore, which is in the Punjab region, and became Pakistan. But, paradoxically and thoughtlessly, the dividing line was drawn right through the Punjab region, so that a part of it remained with India.
This is not an easy read - literally; I agree with JoanP.. I have macular degeneration and trouble deciphering the fine print of the passages at the beginning of each chapter, and with italicized text portions. I have a problem also with the quotation marks in the dialogue because they are put at an odd distance from the text.
Footnotes would certainly come in handy to identify which passes and mountains are talked about. Some Indian words are identified in brackets, but it only adds to the busy-ness of the printed page, at least in my copy.
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JOANP, I still remember, after all these years, how Kim learned to tell
the difference between the many different peoples in India by their
headdresses or style of clothing. I found it fascinating, and expect to
do so again. I don't remember how old I was; not a clue. I'm fairly sure
there were no footnotes.
Like JoanK, I probably missed a lot, but since I wasn't aware of it,
it didn't matter. I read it for the adventure!!
TRAUDE, I can recommend the great convenience of having a magnifying glass handy. I grab it whenever I run across small, unreadable print. How else would I know when my coupons expire? ???
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Jonathan: Thank you so much for mentioning Tournament of Shadows; reading it will add so much to Kim's story. I read the prologue last night and found the writing style to be easy and informative. The authors are married, both have impressive CVs; his include editorial stints at both the Washington Post and the NY Times, and she has won several Emmies and the Peabody. Their journey through the region inspired this book which includes maps, a chronology beginning with Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812 and continues until the Russians withdraw from Afghanistan in 1989, an index and extensive notes. I looked up Kim in the index. It is an ironic footnote to history that the infamous "Kim" Philby, British intelligence liaison to Washington to Washington and KGB mole, was born in India and acquired his nickname through this link with Kipling's hero.
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Jackie, I have ordered a used copy of Tournament of Shadows on the Amazon site and can't wait for it to arrive after reading your description.
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elizabeth84: That's exciting. I hope you like it as well as I do. :)
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For background there is also the book mentioned by Pat: The Great Game, by Peter Hopkirk. Isn't it interesting that the 'great game' has been playing out for more than a hundred years, if not many hundreds of years. Listening to President Obama's West Point address a few weeks ago, I found myself wondering if he had ever read KIM.
It occurred to me that prepping for KIM should include something about the meaning of rivers in our lives. Kim after all is playing several games, helping the lama to find the river of his spiritual quest, as well as helping to save the empire, the Raj. Just consider what the holy Ganges means to so many Hindus. Or the river Jordan for Christians. To be baptized in its waters is the dream of many. For the rest of us there is the Styx which has to be crossed, eventually, for that new beginning.
Can you believe this? I've read an opinion that suggests reading Don Quixote for a parallel to the lama's quest. Can anyone recommend a good book about windmills? Then again, it might be useful to brush up on Freudian concepts relevant to relationships.
Oh, to be twelve again and just go for the adventure.
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Jonathan, help me up - I'm rolling around on the floor laughing from your last post!
I think I'm going to read Kim for the adventure - as if I were twelve- thirteen at most! Will leave the googling to you, Babi! ;)
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Jonathon: The meaning of rivers in our lives - interesting - perhaps we could include the Rubicon which we've all crossed (metaphorically) at some point in our lives - the point of no return where, as Caesar said, 'the die is cast'
I quite see the analogy between Kim/Lama and Don Quixote/Sanchez on their separate quests. The dichotomies between the two sets of protagonists surely have parallels. I'll try to follow that thread up.
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I just downloaded a sample of "Tournament of Shadows". Thank you, Jackie, for telling me about it. I do not remember reading "Kim", as a child. However, it seems to me that I saw a movie made from the novel. Wasn't Sabu in it? I do not remember the story.
I also remember feeling fear when Pakistan broke away from India. There was a lot of talk of possible war, when that happened.
Sheila
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I've started reading KIM, and making notes, of course. And researching.
I'm on it, JOAN!
Jonathan, you'll have to excuse me when it comes to Freudian concepts. I am highly sceptical of just about any opinion of his. :-\ :P
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As long as Jonathan brought up Freud, I'll put in my two cents. I believe his work on defense mechanisms was quite good and useful, however I disagree with most of his other theories (Oedipus complex, hysteria). I remember more about Jung's work on dreams and archetypes than I do Freud's work with dream associations.
Meanwhile, I continue to read through Hopkirks' The Great Game... as a prelude to Kim.
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My daughter brought the book to me from our library just in time to read and discover Kim, which I don't believe I have ever read. So I shall just be twelve again (as Jonathan suggested) and go for the adventure!
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It's easy to get lost in the adventure. I read through an entire chapter
without pausing to even think about notes!
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Frybaby: Comparing the Hopkirk and the Meyer/Brysac book I find the first to be almost text-book in style and the second seems to be more narratives of incidents, which appeals to me more. I'll switch back and forth but read more of Meyer/Brysac for the characters, Hopkirk for the facts though Meyer's book has some interesting data; the 25 miles of the Khyber Pass has 92 bridges and 34 tunnels. For a numbers junkie like me those facts are pure gold. To encapsulate Russia's interest, for the preceding four centuries Russia expanded 55 miles per day! Britain had a tremendously long supply chain to maintain for her Indian outpost so Russia's intrusion into Afghanistan had to be thwarted at all costs. Hopkirk states that the gathering of intelligence was not organized, as Kipling depicts it. It will be interesting to see the contrast between history and fiction as we ddprogress. What a gand game we will have as we delve into The Grand Game as Kim played it out.
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I hope nobody feels they have to make a research project of reading Kim. All you need is Kim itself. Anything more will be fun, but not necessary.
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Pat: It is the conjunction of our present involvment in Afghanustan that prompted my interest. Plus those movies such as Gunga Din, The Man who Would Be King, Kim, King of the khyber Rifles (remember Tyrone Power?), plus I read Caravans by James Michener, Far Pavilions. The story of Kim is well able tostand on its on but it is such a rich subject I can't resist digging more deeply.
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Absolutely right, Jackie. I just didn't want anyone to be worried if they didn't want to do extra reading.
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http://ghostwolf.dyndns.org/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/prose/Kim/chapter1.html
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Athena posted a paragraph in the classics lounge regarding the funeral of Thomas Hardy. In it was this comment regarding Kipling:
...The pallbearers included Rudyard Kipling, George Bernard Shaw, James Barrie, John Galsworthy, and A.E. Housman. Shaw wrote: "As we marched, pretending to carry the ashes of whatever part of Hardy was buried in the Abbey, Kipling, who fidgeted continually and was next in front of me, kept changing his step. Every time he did so I nearly fell over him."...
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BLUEBIRD: HI, great to see you here. Will you be joining us?
FRYBABE: that's hilarious.
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Almost time to get going. The first week of January we'll talk about Chapters 1-4.
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I'm finding there are many ways to read this book. I tried to reread it a few years ago, feeling that I had to follow every reference. I quickly got bogged down and quit. This time, I am just letting India flow by me, as Kim does, and I'm loving it.
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Thanks PatH. I wasn't sure how far to read in. I have chapter one done.
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Shaw's description of carrying Hardy's remains was hilarious but inspiring too. For my pall bearers I think I would like to have Obama and Mrs. Obama, Hilary and Mr. Hilary, Carter and Mrs Carter and Mr. and Mrs. Gates. I hope they all read this.
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OK I have checked in to see where to start...in the interim I enjoyed reading two books I have never heard of But the price was right and ..Excuse me one was Nicholas Sparks "The Last Song" which I enjoyed ...Thomas Kincade "A New Leaf" and am reading "Twisted Creek" by Jodi Thomas. Sparks is Sparks and I know when I read one I wont have nightmares OR daymares but just be glad it was a story that pleased me. I swear I read another but I must have put it away already. I have phases when I read all non fiction, all mystery, all history and all books that are pleasant reading and do not challenge me to decide anything ...It would seem KIm may make a bit of difference if only because we will be discussing it ..
SO, tonight I will open Kim and see if I recall reading it in the past...I keep feeling I have but will uncover the truth when I open the first page.
Whether I also read some of the suggestions I will have to see. BUT I am glad to have them ..
HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR ISnt it wonderful we get a new year to enjoy...It doesnt mean the past year was bad but most have things they can wish never happened, words they wish they had never said, memories that will be here regardless of how many New Years come and go....another chance to try and keep our promises to others and to ourselves...but like a new pair of shoes you have to try them on and see if they fit...SO I HOPE FOR ALL THEY FIT AND ARE COMFORTABLE ...anna
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SO I HOPE FOR ALL THEY FIT AND ARE COMFORTABLE ...anna
A wonderful wish. I echo it!
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The New Year as a comfortable pair of shoes...that's a novel and
entertaining thought, ANNA. No question but that most of us are at an
age where that seems a very acceptable approach. :D
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Some of you asked to see the first weeks questions early, so you can have them in mind while reading. Your request is our command: they are now in the heading. Please don't post discussions of them til we move to our permanent site January first.
Notice the first "week" has an extra day, to accomedate anyone with company (or a hangover ;)) on New Years.
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Tomorrow we start our journey along the path to the Great Game. I'm rarin' to go!
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Me too! I don't get to the computer til noon (3PM EST) but PatH will be here early.
There was another episode of "The Story of India" on PBS last night. The narrative is incomprehensible (to me, anyhow) but the pictures!! Just like "Kim" with teeming people of all kinds and sorts everywhere.
Yesterday, they showed people making the traditional bronze statue of Shiva, by the same methods that have been used for thousands of years. Fascinating.
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mrssherlock and Joan--I'm also ready to get started on "Kim". I have read chapters 1-3 and will read chapter 4 tonight. I am anxious to read what everyone has to say about the first chapters.
Sally
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The "journey along the path to the Great Game" begins here:
Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1040.0)
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