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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
COMING AUGUST 1
On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~ August Book Club Online
Source Books:
* From the Beast to the Blonde (http://www.librarything.com/work/432) by Marina Warner
* The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales (http://www.librarything.com/work/432)by Bruno Bettelheim
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/beastbookcover.jpg) | Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and comprehensive study of the changing cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them. The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories. Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.")
Warner's book is huge. We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/brunocover.jpg) |
Bruno Bettelheim's book may be more readily available. It concentrates more on the psychology behind the fairytales and how important they are to a child's development, the way he perceives himself and the world. The author makes a case that fairytales are more important to a child's formation than any other form of children's lit.
If you are unable to get your hands on either of these two books, not to worry. The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those with Warner's book can share the commentary. |
This should be both fun and informative. Will you be joining us on August 1 ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/cinderella2.jpg)
Discussion Leader: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Do children read Grimm's Fairy Tales any more? Hans Christian Anderson, Charles' Perrault's Cinderella? Or has Disney taken over that department and tamed these old heroines for family viewing? Do you read them to your grandchildren? I'm going to ask my 8 year old granddaugher, who is a voracious reader whether she has read any of the stories... pre-Disney. (Here's a newspaper clipping of her latest accomplishment - http://www.commercialappeal.com/photos/2010/jun/10/172041/ )
Marina Warner presents eyeopening information ...relating that these stories, which were once told by grandmothers and nannies, women, were written down - and recast by men.
Libraries don't carry too many of these big books - too bad, because the 500+ pages are full of gorgeous illustrations and packed with information. If you can get your hands on one, consider yourself fortunate. We'll use the second half of the book as a source for the discussion of specific fairy tales. Even if you can't get your hands on Warner's book, you will enjoy the discussion and can read the tales, which are available on the net... It is interesting how they changed over time, mirroring the period in which they were told. Do you think our cultural representative is Disney?
Check your library today to see if you can get your hands on Warner's "From the Beast to the Blonde" for this discussion which will begin on August 1!
Are you with us?
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What a charming and bright little granddaughter you have. You must all be very proud of her!
Yes, I'll be joining this discussion since it's one of my favorite areas of interest. I might mention here another book that would be worth referring to while we are discussing fairy tales and their value and influence - Bruno Bettleheim's "The Uses of Enchantment: the Meaning and Importance of Fairytales". Our library has 4 copies so I imagine that it's not scarce!
This is a great follow-up to the Byatt book we just discussed!
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Hmm, I think I will sit on the fence a bit. This sounds interesting, but not that accessible.. See how the discussion proceeds.
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Have the book, and after Possession, another fairy tale?
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Wonderful that you will be joining us, JoanR - we know that folklore is of interest as you have both Marina Warner's Beast/Blonde book and Bruno Bettleheim's book on the meaning and importance of fairytales on your own bookshelf. You will be our "go-to" person in this discussion!
Our first task will be to identify the specific fairy tales we will be discussing during this discussion. I have done a quick Google search and followed the story of Cinderella through the ages and am amazed at the number of iterations. Was surprised toread that at one time "stepmother" and "mother-in-law" were synonymous! My library copy of Warner's book is ready for pick-up and I can't wait to get my hands on it. Personally, I am most interested in understanding what the first tellers had in mind with this story.
Steph - good to know you are planning to sit on the fence. I am certain you will be tempted to jump in. You'd be surprised at how much is on the Internet - whole electronic texts of the stories through the ages!
Kidsal - so happy to hear that you are with us - and that you have the Warner book. I know it's huge - like Possession. But unlike Possession, we will not attempt to read all 500 pages in a month. It's the second half of the book that we will use as a resource. Would be interested to hear of your initial impressions of the book though - as I've heard wonderful things about it. My copy is waiting for me at the library right now.
I've been reading Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein" - which is coming up next - definitely not a fairy tale. This is not the Frankenstein of the movies. I can honestly say that I shed tears at the moment the truly ugly monster comes to life and manages a little smile at his horrified creator who wants nothing to do with him. But I really shouldn't be talking about that now. It's just not what I was expecting. That discussion begins July 1 -
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When my children were small I had a book about the origins of Mother Goose stories, fascinating to read that ring around the rosy was a retelling of the Great Plague. I'll want to read the Betelheim book, too. The effect of Disney on Fairy Tales is a whole other subject but one I'll be looking for in these books and this discussion.
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Glad you will be with us, Jackie. I just picked up the Bettleheim at my library, but the Warner book is still "In Transit for Hold" - at least I'm #1 on the hold list - thought it would be there today though.
Oh yes - the Ring around the Rosie song - Ashes, ashes, we all fall down!
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I can't source the book locally - but will keep trying. Haven't covered the secondhand shops yet but don't hold out much hope for getting my hands on a copy. Nevertheless I'll come in and lurk if I may. It should be a great follow-on from Possession
I love the different takes on the old 'nursery rhymes' as we called them such as - Ring a Ring of Rosies - a pocket full of posies - a'tishoo a'tishoo - we all fall down.
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Gum,really delighted to have you, the sourcebooks or not. We'll have enough links to keep you busy - links to the actual fairytales.
a pocket full of posies - a'tishoo a'tishoo - we all fall down.
"a'tishoo a'tishoo" - love it!
There are scholars who argue that the rhyme has nothing to do with the Plague - that this is a 20th century interpretation...
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I'm interested in joining this group too. I read many fairy tales as a girl and would love the "excuse" to read more. In fact, I'm building a little collection of books of fairy tales--from various countries (in English). I'm limiting myself to second-hand bookshops and thrift stores. They are a bit scarce but I am finding some.
I'll get the Marina Warner book from our library when it gets closer to August but I'm glad to know that those in the group who can't find the book can content ourselves with reading some fairy tales. It will be interesting to compare versions.
What a prolific reader your granddaughter is, Joan. Let's get her in this discussion!
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That's great you will be joining us, Marcie! Your collection makes it sound like more than just a girlhood interest in fairy tales. Maybe we can talk about that now in this pre-discussion...
What attracts you to fairy tales? What has been the allure of fairy tales over the centuries?
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This sounds like fun and as much as I can I will be joining the discussion also. I have a set of books called Junior Classics The Young Folks Shelf of Books, which contains many poems and Fairy Tales. I'll see if I can find From the Beast to the Blonde as well.
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Janice, it's great that you will be joining the group. Your set of Junior Classics should provide a bounty of tales.
I think what's always drawn me to fairy tales is their construction of imaginative "other worlds." I used to love to get lost in them when I was young. I still admire authors who are inventive and who provide detailed worlds with their own histories, cultures, customs and languages. It's what draws me to science fiction too.
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Marcie - In that case I guess you'd be a great fan of Tolkien. He went as far as inventing a language for Middle Earth - as a youngster my son spent hours poring over it and then filled notebook after notebook with 'Elvish' writings. I wonder whether he could read it now.
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I am looking forward to joining this discussion. It addresses a long time interest for me. I wonder if anyone else read the different colored Fairy books - the Red Fairy Book, the Green fairy Book, etc. There were a lot of them. These date from the turn of the 20th century, as I remember.
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I still have the Olive Fairy Book. At one time, we had the Red and the Green but they left home with the young a long time ago. I hope I can track down a few! I do have a nice set of Hans Christian Andersen but I wonder if he will count in this discussion since his stories were composed by him - surely some of them must have roots in legend.
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Janice, Ursamajor - really happy to hear that you plan to join in this discussion. Welcome! Clearly we will have plenty to discuss in August - with or without the source books!
What do you suppose accounts for this shared love of fairy tales? Marcie is drawin to the construction of imaginative "other worlds." Is it a form of escapism into these other worlds? For me - it is the suggestion of other possibilities - that I can live my life other than what it is right now - if only I use my imagination. Remember that old song - "Fairy tales, can come true...it can happen to you..."
I've got to run - will be back this afternoon...but just wanted to welcome new members to this widening circle~
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Gumtree, yes, I enjoyed the Tolkien books. I don't get into the language part so far that I study and speak it (as some readers do!). I recall that there were several books dedicated to the Klingon language of the StarTrek series :-)
Ursamajor and JoanR, I didn't own any of the "colored" fairy tale books but I recall one summer when I took out every one that our public library owned.
JoanP, I agree, it's the endless possibililities that attracts me.
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I'm in! Loved reading fairy tales as I grew up and look forward to reviewing them as an adult!
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Good morning, IV - (What shall we call you for short?) - very happy to have another fairytale lover join us. I've been learning so much about them while preparing for this discussion - reading of their history - and lately, their importance in a child's psychological development.
A while back, JoanR recommended Bruno Bettelheim's The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales (http://www.librarything.com/work/432) - yesterday I read the Introduction - and learned so much just from these opening pages! For one, I learned the importance of the gory details - the importance of letting the child handle and process the stories as they are. And NOT to try to explain the tales to a child - his developing subconsciousness will handle that process - you spoil that for him if you explain what he is hearing. Wow! Who knew? ...Someone stop me - we have two weeks before we start! :D
I'm going to add a link to Bettelheim's book to the heading - and recommend that you check your local library for a copy. You'll be glad you did! Thanks, JoanR!
If you cannot find either of these books, please don't be deterred. We will be talking about the tales themselves, and how they have been interpreted over the ages. They are readily available on-line.
Welcome, ivmfox!
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It's great to have you here, ivmfox. I'm glad we have another fairy tale fan joining us.
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I found The Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales, The Western fairy tale tradition from medieval to modern...at the library and will use it for discussion.
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I enjoy fairy tales and would like to join in.
Among my books I just found the Blue Fairy Book. When I bought it years ago I had no idea that there were more "color books" to be had.
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My Beast/Blonde book has arrived, and it looks suspiciously like a text book. A previous owner has done a lot of underlining in the first couple of chapters. I begin to wish I had ordered the Bettelheim book instead. I read it a few years ago. I can get the "colored" fairy books from the Knoxville Library if I pay the fee to join. I remember these with great pleasure, but never owned any.
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Goldensun - it is good to have you with us! Welcome! It's funny that you should mention Andrew Lang's Blue Fairy Collection. I was just reading about that and the other "coleured Fairy Books" this morning. - Here's a bit of information about them -
"Andrew Lang's Fairy Books or Andrew Lang's "Coloured" Fairy Books constitute a twelve-book series of fairy tale collections. Although Andrew Lang did not collect the stories himself from the oral tradition, the extent of his sources, who had collected them originally (with the notable exception of Madame d'Aulnoy), made them an immensely influential collection, especially as he used foreign-language sources, giving many of these tales their first appearance in English. As acknowledged in the prefaces, although Lang himself made most of the selections, his wife and other translators did a large portion of the translating and telling of the actual stories."
The Blue Fairy book was the first: Blue Fairy Book (1889)
Red Fairy Book (1890)
Green Fairy Book (1892)
Yellow Fairy Book (1894)
Pink Fairy Book (1897)
Grey Fairy Book (1900)
Violet Fairy Book (1901)
Crimson Fairy Book (1903)
Brown Fairy Book (1904)
Orange Fairy Book (1906)
Olive Fairy Book (1907)
Lilac Fairy Book (1910)
Ursa, I've got Warner's "From the Beast to the Blonde" in front of me too - a big book, isn't it? Marvelous etchings and prints throughout. Don't be overwhelmed with it - we'll just use it as a source - knowing the you have it is great - you can help those who were unable to get a copy...
I'm thinking that we will use the different versions of Little Red Riding hood as a starting point. Will put links to these stories in the heading very soon. Golden Sun, I see that the Blue Fairy book contains Little Red Riding Hood - or Little Red Cap - so you might want to read up on this story sometime before we start? Be sure to note the authors and the dates, if you see them.
And Ursamajor - you might check the index of the Warner book to see what you can find of interest about the very early versions of the story. You might find some shocking eyeopeners! ;)
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goldensun, it will be wonderful to have you join the group. How lucky that you have the Blue Fairy book! I see from JoanP's post that it was the first one in the series!
ursamajor, is the Bettelheim book available in your library? Your library charges a fee to join?
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Just received both books recommended so I will be joining the discussion on August 1.
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This looks most fascinating. Just requested both books. Hopefully I'll participate.
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My local library is pathetic. There is a charge to use the Knox County Library because I don't live in that county. The charge is $40, but it is worth it if I get there twice a month. I have checked the catalog and they have all 12 "colored" fairy books as well as the Bettelheim. This gives me access to all the libraries in the Knox system.
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Fran and MarjV - really glad you will be joining us - and that you have been able to locate the books we'll be using as sources. Some of us have not been able to find them in their libraries - but your contributions will be helpful - and of course the tales we'll be discussing are availalbe on the Internet...even the very old ones! This promises to be an enjoyable time for everyone!
Welcome, both of you!
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It's great to see you here, dean69 and Marjv. ursa, that's too bad about your local library but it sounds like you have a very good resource in Knox county.
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Thanks Joan P. and Marcie. I'm reading some of the stories and looking forward to the discussion.
The Blue Fairy book has Little Red Riding Hood. The other four books on my shelf are French, Celtic and German stories. Neither the Celtic book, by Eric and Nancy Protter, or the French one (those stories are all set in Mackinac Island, Michigan) is likely to have an equivalent story. I got the Protter book thirty-five years ago and still love it most dearly of them all. :)
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There must be equivalent fairy tales in all cultures just like all have their unique stories of
creation which have similarities. Folk tales?
I was thinking about fairy tales versus folk tales...then I came across this
wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_tale
And all of Lang's Fairy tale books can be read here http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/
That's all for now
~Marj
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ivmfox - Thanks for suggesting the Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales. My local library didn't have it but I was able to request it from the county system and it has come in just 2 days. It looks very interesting and will no doubt be useful as well.
I only have the Olive Fairy Book but I can borrow some of the others. Also, the on-line source that MarjV has given us will be quite a help, I think, for the other volumes. This discussion will be such fun! - and serious, too, since these tales came out of the hopes and needs and attempts to explain life of our forebears.
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goldensun, that's wonderful that you kept the Protter book all these years.
JoanR, I agree that MarjV's link to http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/ will be very handy!
Marj, it was interesting to read the wikipedia article with descriptions of fairy tales and related stories. I am very interested in folklore too and also various creation stories/myths.
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I own both books and have read the Bettelheim and some of the second book. There is a stream in Jungian Psychology that utilizes much of this material . They run some fascinating workshops based on Mythology and Fairy Tales. I have attended some of them though I am not a Jungian. For the most part the participants ended up writing their own fairy tales and drawing their own illustrations. Quite freeing and lots of fun.
I will participate as much as possible though August is a guest filled month for us and we are also going to Vermont for a wedding.
How did you hit upon this subject?
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Other websites:
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/introduction/index.html
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/
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Hey, Jude!!! You are so very welcome! I woke up this morning thinking- after reading Bettelheim right before I went to bed last night on the therapeutic importance of fairy tales - that what we really need in our midst is a psychologist! Now I am a believer in fairy godmothers, because here you are, just as I wished!
That's a good question - how did we hit upon this subject? I'll admit when we started talking about a summer discussion, we were looking for something light and easy and thought fairy tales would be just the ticket. It was JoanR who suggested Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde as a sourcebook, and then Bettelheim's Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales. And then whoa, Nellie, we were off to the races. This promises to be quite a discussion. Maybe I'm on to something when I sense that Warner and Bettelheim are not even on the same page on the therapeutic importance of the tales...well, I'm getting ahead of myself here.
MarjV, something caught my eye in the Wikipedia essay on the folklore and fairytales - "Folklorists have interpreted the tales' significance, but no school has been definitively established for the meaning of the tales."
Let me repeat, we consider ourselves blessed to have you join us, Jude - and also that JoanR has agreed to share her long time interest in folklore and fairy tales with us as a Guest Discussion Leader - Thank you, Fairy Godmother~
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Kidsal, MarjV, I've scooped up those links and will put them in safekeeping for when we get started. Thank you both so much! ( I think the link to Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy books will have to go up into the header today.)
Those of you who have neither of these books will have plenty to read and compare as so much is available on-line. Who knew?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
COMING AUGUST 1
On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~ August Book Club Online
Source Books:
* From the Beast to the Blonde (http://www.librarything.com/work/432) by Marina Warner
* The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales (http://www.librarything.com/work/432)by Bruno Bettelheim
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/beastbookcover.jpg) | Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and comprehensive study of the changing cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them. The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories. Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.")
Warner's book is huge. We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness. |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/brunocover.jpg) |
Bruno Bettelheim's book, The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales may be more readily available. It concentrates more on the psychology behind the fairytales and how important they are to a child's development, the way he perceives himself and the world. The author makes a case that fairytales are more important to a child's formation than any other form of children's lit.
If you are unable to get your hands on either of these two books, not to worry. The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those with Warner's book can share the commentary. |
Some Pre-Discussion Questions...
1. In his introduction to The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales, Bruno Bettelheim, an educator and psychologist, asserts that nothing is as enriching, as satisfying or as meaningful to a child's development as the folk fairy tale, of the entire collection of children's literature, with rare exceptions. Do you agree with him?
2. Do children still read those old tales today? Which were your favorites?
Related Links: Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/); Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/); A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8T-ZWRehw&feature=related);
This should be both fun and informative. Will you be joining us on August 1 ? (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/cinderella2.jpg)
Discussion Leader: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) with JoanR, Guest DL
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Jude, it's great that you'll be joining the group!
Thanks for those links, Kidsal. There are quite a few references for "women and fairy tales" at that site.
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Great website finds, Kidsal!
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Sometimes fairy tales and fantasy literature are confused with each other. I’ve run across a definition in "The Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales" which clarified them for me.
“ “While fairy tales and fantasy are doublessly related.. Their origins are quite different. Fairy tales have their roots in archaic society and archaic thought, thus immediately succeeding myths." Fantasy literature is a more recent genre and owes its origins mostly to romanticism. ... " it’s a conscious creation where authors choose the forms which suit them best. "
I found a series of books in our library which are fantasy novels - each by a different author taking a traditional fairy tale of his choice and building his plot from that. These now are no longer fairy tales.!
Can we call Andersen's "Little Mermaid" a fairy tale since it is a re-telling of a long line of mermaid tales? I would.
I think these classifications can get rather confusing!
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JoanR, those distinctions are a bit confusing. I think we'll have to find our way as we read and talk about some of these stories together.
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"Sometimes fairy tales and fantasy literature are confused with each other. "
JoanR, I can't tell you how delighted we are to have you with us as a "guest DL" for this discussion. Your long-time interest in folk tales and fairy tales will be invaluable to us!
An interesting question about The Little Mermaid. Are you saying that because Hans Christian Andersen based his story on ancient Greek tales of a mermaid, that it falls under the "fairy tale" catergory? And that if he made up a story not based on the mermaid stories - if she was of some other species, then it would be Andersen's own speciies?
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"Guest DL"??? Moi? I thought I was a happy participant! The heat is melting my brain!
We only have AC in 2 bedrooms and the living room so the kitchen and the study are so very hot that I prepare dinner at 6:00AM and make only hasty forays to the computer!
Interesting question, JoanP. I don't think that I said that Andersen based The Little Mermaid on mythology. There were many water nymphs etc in classic myths but they remained part of the pagan culture. With the advent of Christianity, the tales took on a different tone - mermaids or selkies who wanted to become mortals had to sacrifice something to acquire a soul. In the tales I remember that sacrifice was usually the voice, also having become mortal, they could die. This is the sort of tale that Andersen wrote. Also the opera Russalka is like this - not a happy story, for sure. In fact, I just can't seem to think of a happy mermaid tale unless you want to count Disney!!
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Welcome, "Guest DL"! Oh dear - I'm sure I sent you an email, admittedly some time ago, asking for your help with this one, as my knowledge of Fairytales is limited. Did I dream that you responded in the affirmative? Reading the Warner and the Bettelheim sources only confirms how little I do know.
Of course we want you as a 'happy participant' - Do you think Guest DL and Happy P exclusionary? Maybe the only difference is that as Guest DL you are here more often? ;)
Can we call Andersen's "Little Mermaid" a fairy tale since it is a re-telling of a long line of mermaid tales? I would.
OK, so Andersen's "long ago line " of mermaid tales don't go back to ancient myths, but he did base his Little Mermaid on later tales of mermaids, the selkies - which is the reason why you feel it is a fairy tale?
Do you have a favorite tale - or maybe a favorite narrator of tales?
Smart of you to prepare dinner at 6am - before the big temps get going. We are heading for another 100 degree day. My little cubscout grandson is determined to march down Conn. Ave in DC this afternoon with a huge contingent of scouts who just attended the National Jamboree here. I'm not so worried about the boys as I am about my son, his Den Leader. The grandma is wondering whether she ought to suck it up and go down to down to take his picture...
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I have a question based on the fact that I realized as you discussed "The Little Mermaid" I had never read the original. What collection of Andersen would you suggest? Or just google it?
I know the Grimm stories since I had the book as a child but I didn't read the Andersen Tales till I read them to my children. There were five tales in this book but The Little Mermaid was not among them.However even that book is now long gone.
I also want to mention Oscar Wilde as a less well known writer of Fairy Tales. "The Happy Prince" is a beautiful and sad story that he wrote. But then perhaps it doesn't fit the genre as it has an unhappy ending.
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The Happy Prince" is one of my favorite stories although it always leaves me a bit teary so I was unable to read it to my kids
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I like Wilde's "The Selfish Giant". I wouldn't describe it as a fairy tale, though.
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A good question - is the happy ending a necessary ingredient of a fairy tale? What do you think? There are some versions of Little Red Riding Hood where the wolf swallows both grandma and Little Red...and the story ends there...
Jude, I thought it would be fun to search the link to Andrew Lang's colour fairytale books to find the Little Mermaid. Which I did, without much success. I did find other Mermaid tales by HC Anderson in the fairy books, but not THE story I was seaching for...
"Hans the Mermaid's Son" - Pink Fairy Book http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/410.htm
"Mermaid and the Boy" - Brown http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/274.htm
Googling brought me to this nicely illustrated version though ... http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html
Does our Guest DL think that Andrew Lang did not include The Little Mermaid, but did include other mermaid stories?
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Now I just have to go find "The Selfish Giant", Ursa. And "The Happy Prince" too. I think I had a deprived childhood, never having read these stories. On the other hand, maybe I read them, and simply forgot? I'm going to read them and see if they sound familiar...
These are both stories by Oscar Wilde...are they considered to be "fairy tales?" Ursa does not. Do we need a definition of a fairy tale?
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I found some links related to Anderson's The Little Mermaid at http://www.andersen.sdu.dk/vaerk/register/info_e.html?vid=16. Included is a link to a very similar version to the one you found, JoanP.
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Well this is fascinating. First I went to the site suggested by Joan P and from there to a Danish site (which is almost all English). There they give you a list of Andersens 212 stories and fairy tales. "The Little Mermaid" is # 16 , just after a story "God Can Never Die". Getting more curious by the minute I simply Googled the name of the story "The Little Mermaid"
Lo and behold I got not only the whole story but the huge polemic over its ending. You too can read this fascinating article if you Google the title and go to the second article-i.e. the Wikipedia article. They get into the question of what type of ending does a story need to be considered a fairy tale. It seems that this particular story was used as a morality tale by Victorian parents.
I also never read "The Happy Prince" to my children since it made me tearful and sad, whereas "The Happy Giant" is delightful.
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I have an"Index to Fairy Tales, Myths & Legends" pub 1926 which lists Andersen's "Little Mermaid"and gives several sources for it but not the Lang books. In the back it lists all the books it has searched for its many entries - all the Lang books are cited. From this I would guess that one wouldn't find the "Little Mermaid" in the Colour Fairy Books It's a pretty long story - about 50 pages in my Andersen books - so that could be why it's not included by Lang. Maybe! Hard to grasp hold of these fairies!
About defining "Fairytale". One definition I read says that it is characterized by a "happy ever after ending" but that's certainly not always true. We can all think of some with sad ends. The "cautionary tales" can have bad ends. The sort where the little heroine dies but ascends to heaven as an angel is sad or not, depending on one's viewpoint! Andersen wrote quite a few heartbreakers such as "The Steadfast Tin Soldier". I wept buckets over that one as a child!
The consensus is that Andersen's tales are fairy tales. Fairy tales are hard to define - most fairy tales don't have any fairies in them! Most of them seem to have evolved from earlier tales told by community story-tellers when most ordinary folk were illiterate. They were refined and elaborated down through time until they were collected by people such as Perrault and the brothers Grimm.
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I think we need a working definition of fairy tales. In my opinion, the majority of the Andersen stories do not fit the category; they are Victorian morality stories. The Little Match Girl makes my skin crawl. The Little Mermaid isn't much better: you achieve your heart's desire only through sacrifice and suffering.
If we just define fairy tales as having magical happenings and fabulous creatures we get into The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, and even, God Help us, Harry Potter.
To my mind, to qualify as a fairy tale the story should have been told over and over, as Cinderella has been. I would like to hear others' opinions on the susbject, but we need a working definition so we are all talking about the same thing.
I will pick up several of the "colored" fairy books at the Knoxville Library tomorrow. That should help me with my own definition. It has probably been 65 years since I read them.
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Oh, I read many of these fairy tales as a child and later read them to my children. I had to gulp a bit at the unhappy endings of a few, but the children did not have nightmares (neither had I) and perhaps it is good that they learn all stories do not have a happy ending - such is life.
I'll join you or read along when I can.
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Ella, we're happy to hear that you will be joining us - Welcome!
Ursa would like for us to come up with a definition of a fairytale, before we get started. That's more difficult than I thought - having a hard time finding a definitive answer for her.
The Oxford dictionary says:
• n. a children's story about magical and imaginary beings and lands.
∎ [as adj.] denoting something regarded as resembling a fairy story in being magical, idealized, or extremely happy: a fairy-tale romance.
Do we agree that a fairy tale needs a "happy" ending? I'm not sure. Is The Little Mermaid considered a fairy tale? JoanR wonders if it is not part of Andrew Lang's extensive collection of Fairy Tales is because it is too long. Perhaps that is the reason. Was that really a happy ending?
"I had to gulp a bit at the unhappy endings of a few" - Ella remembers the unhappy endings, as I do.
Jude, I Googled The Little Mermaid, and found the second entry, just as you said...and read the alternate endings with interest. I was also interested in your comment - "It seems that this particular story was used as a morality tale by Victorian parents." Because another source stated -
A fairy tale is a story that is told in a fanciful way but also gives some sort of lesson. Cinderella, for instance is about finding love and romance, but also teaches that treating someone badly does not pay off in the end.
I've been reading Bruno Bettelheim's introduction - and get the impression that cautionary tales are NOT fairy tales. Maybe we'll have to talk about that next week.
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It seems as if the lineage of the fairy tales is: myth, oral folk tale, fairy tale.. Myths narrated the deeds of supernatural beings, the oral folktales were told to entertain or educate when most people were illiterate,, fairy tales sprang out of this oral tradition.. In France, in the late 17th century, the tales were told as entertainment in the fashionable salons. These were not children’s tales! Perrault and Mme. D’Aulnoy collected the stories and wrote them down for adults. These are the literary tales with which we are familiar. Although some of them have been “expurgated” for children - I.e. "Sleeeping Beauty ". I don’t think that I’ve ever seen it or“Donkeyskin” in their original versions in a children’s book.
About Andersen - he came from a non-reading family and grew up hearing the old oral tales. He was a storyteller himself. Some of his tales have their basis in the old legends and are literary fairy tales- Little Mermaid for example. He tended to add a little moral at the end of some of his stories.
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I just found Andersen's own definition of fairy tales:
"In the whole realm of Poetry no domain is so boundless as that of the fairy tale. It reaches from the blood-drenched graves of antiquity to the pious legends of a child's picture-book; It takes in the poetry of the people and the poetry of the artist. To me it represents all poetry, and he who masters it must be able to put into it tragedy, comedy, naive simplicity, irony and humour...."
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Your Andersen quote, Joan, is exactly why I don't t hink we can tie down a strict definition of a fairy tale. "In the whole realm of Poetry no domain is so boundless as that of the fairy tale. It reaches from the blood-drenched graves of antiquity to the pious legends of a child's picture-book; It takes in the poetry of the people and the poetry of the artist. To me it represents all poetry, and he who masters it must be able to put into it tragedy, comedy, naive simplicity, irony and humour...." ]
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And that might take away the lightness of being in reading and thinking about these stories.
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I thought this from wikipedia about Madame d'aulnoy was interesting:
Her most popular works were her fairy tales and adventure stories as told in Les Contes des Fees (Tales of fairies) and Contes Nouveaux, ou Les Fées à la Mode. Unlike the folk tales of the Grimm Brothers, who were born some 135 years later than d'Aulnoy, she told her stories in a more conversational style, as they might be told in salons. These stories were far from suitable for children and many English adaptations are very dissimilar to the original.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame_d%27Aulnoy
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MarjV, thank you so much for bringing us the originator of the term we have been trying to define - Countess d'Aulnoy and her "contes de fées" (fairy tales). Did you get a chance to read some of them? Had you ever heard of them before?
I'm beginning to think that we are not going to be able to pin down one definition of a fairy tale that everyone can agree on. JoanR Hans Christian Andersen's definition brings home how broad is concept. Length, happy endings, sad endings, cautionary messages or no - shall we forget those considerations? (Bruno Bettelheim is not going to agree with that, as we will see. Happy endings are a necessary ingredient of the fairy tale in his view.
"It seems as if the lineage of the fairy tales is: myth, oral folk tale, fairy tale.."JoanR
As I read your post, Joan, it occurred to me that this would be a good way to approach the tales...from the earliest known myths to the fairy tale in its modern iterations.
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Searching among various sources of the definition of a Fairy Tale I found one that is the closest to what I see at this point in time as a Fairy Tale. Of course after this discussion I may be wiser and change my mind.
"a tale of some length involving a succession of motifs or episodes. It moves in an unreal world without definite locality or definite creatures and is filled with the marvelous. In this never-never land, humble heros kill adversaries, succeed to kingdoms and marry princesses." Stith Thompson 1977 The Folktale
And in the annotated Brothers Grimm, A.S.Byatt adds: "The characters and motifs of fairy tales are simple and archetypal : princesses and goose girls, youngest sons and gallant princes, ogres, giants, trolls, wicked stepmothers and false heroes; fairy godmothers and other magical helpers, often talking horses, or foxes, or birds; glass mountains and prohibitions and the breaking of prohibitions."
This is a fascinating subject.
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I couldn't get my hands on a copy of either of the books you mentioned; but since I can look up a lot on line; I will be popping in from time to time. I have always thought of fairy tales as having happy endings, thus the phrase, "a fairy tale ending". However, I may have to rethink that.....
Has anyone else been humming Frank Sinatra, "Fairy tales can come true. It can happen to you; if you are among the very young at heart".???
Sally
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Don't know why or how I got the "huh" face. I can't seem to manage putting faces where I want them; but they magically seem to appear in random places!!
Sally
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"a tale of some length involving a succession of motifs or episodes. It moves in an unreal world without definite locality
"Long ago, in a galaxy far far away......."
Bettelheim quotes Lewis Carroll "....child of the pure unclouded brow/ And dreaming eyes of wonder!/ Though time be fleet and I and thou/ Are half a life asunder/ Thy loving smile will surely hail/ The lovegift of a fairy tale.."
He goes on to say one way to determine if a story is a fairy tle it should be "rightly callled a love-gift to a child." p. 27
This would eliinate a lot of pretty grisly fairy tales.
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A morning of coincidences! I usually poke about in the Guardian - there I found this link to a special section they published on Fairytales a while back. Link here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/oct/16/beastly-tales-warner
I read "Hans the Hedgehog" since that one was new to me, then responding to UrsaMajor's reference to Bettleheim, I randomly opened his book to page 70 where he embarks on a discussion of Hans the Hedgehog!!! Well, well! Fair gives one the shivers, doesn't it?
He says:" If these fairy stories in which angry wishes come true ended there, they would be merely cautionary tales... but while the fairy tale realistically warns that being carried away by anger or impatience leads to trouble,...good will or deeds can undo all the harm done by bad wishing."
I find that , on the whole, I prefer reading Warner to Bettleheim. There is an article by Warner contained in that link above to the Guardian.
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This is a great discussion of the meaning of fairy tales. Thanks especially, JoanR, for the link to the Guardian articles. I too am prefering Warner to Bettleheim. I also enjoyed the review of two books by A.S.Byatt at http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/dec/28/classics.highereducation (which was linked from the original article). In the article, Byatt quotes a description of fairy tales that she likes:
"In The European Folktale the Swiss scholar Max Luthi gives one of the best descriptions of the essential qualities of the tale as opposed to the myth, or the legend, or the authored fantasy for children or adults. He says tales are characterised by "depthlessness", a brilliant, abstract mosaic of isolated objects and colours - red, gold, blue, rings, fish, swords, cauldrons - and an assumption that their world is the whole world, though it is recognisably not the world we inhabit. They make, he says, "a provisional view of humankind and the world as a whole". Like a fastidious princess picking out peas, he sieves the Grimms for sentences about characters' emotions which are "written" sentences, literary, nuanced by moral or psychological tweaking."
One of the books that Byatt reviews is an annotated collection of fairy tales by Maria Tatar. Since Byatt says that she admires Tatar's more scholarly writing, I found that my public library has a 2009 book by Tatar entitled, "Enchanted Hunters: the power of stories in childhood" "Tatar challenges the assumptions we make about childhood reading. By exploring how beauty and horror operate in children's literature, she examines how and what children read, showing how literature transports and transforms children with its intoxicating, captivating and occasionally terrifying energy."
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I found a very interesting video of a "roundtable" discussion of fairy tales called "Transformations: How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell" at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8T-ZWRehw&feature=related. It's an hour and 48 minutes long but I think it's worth spending the time. Lots of interesting insights from the panel members, including Maria Tatar. The discussion itself is 54 minutes. The rest is Q&A and interaction between the panel members and the audience.
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I read the Warner article and the last sentence gave me pause ..Fairy tales remind us to keep our promises.
This meshed with a favorite story of mine "The Pied Piper of Hamlin". This story really is all about keeping promises and the terrible consequences of not keeping them. It is a truly a tale of morality and yet just enough magic to hold our interest. So we (I) can listen over and over again and never tire of it.
I am slowly but surely wending my way through Warner's book and am surprised mainly by the original grisly nature of such simple stories such as Goldilocks. In the original the bears tear the interloper to pieces. Now there's a moral to remember when next you are tempted to do a home invasion.
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Good morning! Two more days till we begin and already I feel behind! There is so much here! Marcie, I can't seem to carve out the hour and 48 mininutes to watch roundtable discussion on How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8T-ZWRehw&feature=related); but have seen the introduction of the participants a number of times. :D The former Harvard president impresses me with her knowledge, each time I hear her opening remarks. I think this is important enough to put in the heading in case others haven't had the chance to listen to it.
In fact, there is so much good conversation and so many links here that I think on Sunday when the discussion is scheduled to begin, we'll stay right here in the Pre-Discussion rather than open a new site.
Welcome Salan, we are happy to have you with us - with or without the sourcebooks. You're right, there is so much on the Internet, not to mention your own good thoughts. You've brought up a question we'll be considering - about Fairy Tales for the young today? Oh, by the way, whenever you type more than one question mark, you are going to get one of those little emoticons, the "huh face"...it's the software that does it.
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Jude, whenever anyone mentions AS Byatt, I think of the fairy queen, the Melusine in Possession, I think we will be talking about the ancient story when we get into the source of fairytales.
I like your definition of a fairytale. Notice "of some length" leaves the question open-ended, doesn't it? It is the "unreal world without definite locality or definite creatures" that allows the reader to bring his/her own world into the story. Like staging a house for the real estate market - stripping the house of clutter so perspective buyers can see themselves living there.
JoanR -That's eerie that you opened to the Warner article in the Guardian. Noticed that Warner references Byatt too.
What is the reason you prefer Warner over Bettelheim, do you think? I'm wondering if it is because Bruno is dated, the book was written in the 1900s - in 1975. Have attitudes changed? Is it like reading Dr. Spock on raising a child - or is Spock "in" again? Marcie, I'd like to hear more from Maria Tatar on beauty and horror in children's literature.
I'm finding Bettelheim quite interesting in that respect. From what I've read, his interest lies in the therapeutic effect of reading fairy tales - that children can handle the grisly aspects that Jude refers to - they can even tolerate the wolf eating the old grandmother. He looks down at the modern "prettified" versions as empty entertainment...
"He (Bettelheim) goes on to say one way to determine if a story is a fairy tle it should be "rightly callled a love-gift to a child." p. 27
This would eliinate a lot of pretty grisly fairy tales." Ursa, do you find this confusing? Is he contradicting himself here?
What do you think - are children reading the old fairy tales today, or is it all Disney's "prettified" versions?
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Fairy tales have been prettified for a long time. The ones that were read to me as a child were published in the "Through Fairy Halls" volume of the Bookhouse Books, published in the 1920s. They were bowderlized to some extent - the sex and violence were smoothed over - but not mutilated as "the Disney versions" are. Lang is a good deal more direct.
I find I have little patience with Bettleheim. I marvel that he discussed Rapunzel at some length without acknowledging that the Princess and her lover were having sex. In the older version the story comes to a climax when the princess gets too pregnant for her clothes. I have to admit that the politest word I can find for Bettelheim's freudian analyses of the tales is "piffle". That is not the word that comes immediately to mind.
I'm not sure children are reading anything but the Disney versions today. I was a school librarian for a while 30 years ago and my chief frustration was that I had all these beautiful books and nobody read them but me. Sixth graders would take home "Curious George". Perhaps Harry Potter has changed this. And the more I try to define "fairy tale" the more I come to think we cannot exclude the Potter books from the definition.
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Ursamajor
I am a fan of Harry Potter books and movies. The main difference between these books and fairy tales is the character development of all the protagonists. Harry, Ron and Hermione all change and slowly come to understand themselves and the world . They change from insecure, confused eleven year olds into wiser , more secure and good young adults.
When I was in China in 2001 the book was everywhere (in Chinese). In Spain, Hungary and Russia the book was in every bookstore and in children's hands on the public transportation.
In my work as a Child Therapist I watched as insecure children identified with Harry and learned whole chapters by heart. One boy would quiz me on my knowledge of every detail. Of course he remembered better than I. I don't think that there is a fairy tale that could do so much for so many as those books have done.
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Oh my goodness, Jude - you are just the go-to person we need to better understand Bettelheim! You both seem to agree that the fairy tale is the best form of literature for a child's development. Do you happen to know if there was anything in J K Rowling's background that prepared her to become such a storyteller? You have to wonder what fueled her imagination - and ability to communicate with children.
I can see where her characters are well-developed compared to the fairytale, in which the characters come to us completely formed.
Ursamajor, a school librarian! So you know what children will choose to read if given a choice. I wonder what Harry Potter fans will choose next? If Bettelheim believes that fairy tales are the most valuable a chilc can read, I wonder whether he has any advice on guiding a child to read them.
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I like this line from the Guardian article:
Sometimes the plot follows emotional or psychological logic, but not always; a great deal of the impact of this literature depends on the stark absence of explanation
Gives us room to imagine or think without explanations.
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That's a good point, MarjV - I think one point Bettelheim makes is that adults should refrain from the tempatation to EXPLAIN fairy tales to kids...
I've probably been guilty of doing that - more than once!
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I would like to join the fairytale discussion...I have always been interested in the origins of Fairy tales. Will try to contribute to the discussion since things are available online.
What darling granddaughter Joan P and what an achievement for her. Hope she will join us in this discussion
Joan Grimes
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~ August Book Club Online
Source Books:
* From the Beast to the Blonde (http://www.librarything.com/work/432) by Marina Warner
* The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales (http://www.librarything.com/work/432)by Bruno Bettelheim
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/beastbookcover.jpg) | Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and comprehensive study of the changing cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them. The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories. Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.")
Warner's book is huge. We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness. |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/brunocover.jpg) |
Bruno Bettelheim's book, The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales may be more readily available. It concentrates more on the psychology behind the fairytales and how important they are to a child's development, the way he perceives himself and the world. The author makes a case that fairytales are more important to a child's formation than any other form of children's lit.
If you are unable to get your hands on either of these two books, not to worry. The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those with Warner's book can share the commentary. |
For Your Consideration
1. As an educator and therapist, why do you think Bruno Bettelheim found fairy tales more rewarding than any other children's stories in helping severely disturbed children?
2. Why does he think that fairy tales are more important than ever to a child's development today? Do you agree?
3. Why does explaining a fairy tale destroy the story's enchantment? Have you ever done this when reading to a child?
4. What do you think Bettelheim means when he says the fairy tale must be told in its "original form?" Did you wonder what he considers the "original form" of a fairy tale?
5. Let's consider and compare the print versions of Little Red Riding, as these are the ones to which Bettelhiem seems to refer. Which of these two versions of Little Red Riding Hood would you prefer to read to a child? Little Red Riding Hood (Charles Perrault - 1697) (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/321.htm) or Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - 1812) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html#grimm) ?
6. Why do you think Bettelheim discounts Perrault's version of the story?
7. Charles Perrault brings these tales to the drawing room of the elite and wows them. What is his background? Is he a writer? Is he a member of the aristocracy in France?
8. How has Perrault tamed the oral tale,
"The Story of Grandmother" (http://reconstruction.eserver.org/022/cannibal/littlered.html), on which he based his own "Little Red Riding Hood" -
[Related Links:
Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/); Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/); A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8T-ZWRehw&feature=related); Little Red Riding Hood (Charles Perrault - 1697) (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/321.htm); Little Red Riding Hood (Brothers Grimm - 1812) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html#grimm); Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end ) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm026.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) with JoanR, Guest DL
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Hello JoanG - just in time - happy to have you with us. Welcome !
I am sitting here at my computer getting some fairy tale links together for tomorrow. You will do just fine, there is so much online.
I'll ask Lindsay about joining us. Right now she is collecting those little fairy books...has about 100 of them. She loves fairies. I think she is one. Not sure about fairy tales.
Marcie, look what I found while looking for something else - Maria Tatar's The Hard Facts of the Brothers Grimm (http://books.google.com/books?id=lTtMH_ezI4UC&printsec=frontcover&dq=grimm+fairy+tales&source=bll&ots=9j1xAKaBRS&sig=_yt2TeXJHrgXsiy3WzKYljKrtRA&hl=en&ei=WURUTLy1NcL-8AbrupyRBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=20&ved=0CHcQ6AEwEw#v=onepage&q=grimm%20fairy%20tales&f=false) - seems to be the whole book online. I'll put it in the new heading for tomorrow. There's some good information here...
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Thanks for locating that book by Maria Tatar, JoanP. A lot of the book is available but it looks like not all of it. I saw this notice after a few pages were skipped. "Many of the books you can preview on Google Books are still in copyright, and are displayed with the permission of publishers and authors. You can browse these "limited preview" titles just as you would in a bookstore, but you won't be able to see more pages than the copyright holder has made available. When you've accessed the maximum number of pages allowed for a book, any remaining pages will be omitted from your preview. You can order full copies of any book using the "Get this book" links to the side of the preview page."
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Hi! This is last minute - but I would like to join in the discussion too!
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Well, no, it's never the last minute, Adichie! I just came in to put the new billboard up above to prepare for tomorrow's discussion. You are the first one here! Welcome!
Marcie, that's too bad about the incomplete Tatar book - it looked interesting. Were you able to get her other book from the library?
Since the last posts you all were discussing Bettelheim - (and how you prefer Warner:D) I thought we'd better start with Bettelheim, because we will probably be spending lots more time with Warner.
Bettelheim appears to speak only about the written fairy tales, beginning in the 17th century. He speaks of their importance to a child's development - and which ones he finds most valuable. Let's talk about the importance of the fairy tale this week - as he sees it - and the elements of LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD that he finds significant. There are links to Charles Perrault's and the Brothers Grimm in the heading. The Brothers Grimnm's version was included in Andrew Lang's Blue Fairy Book.
If you find observations about Little Red Riding Hood in Warner's Beast/Blonde, please feel free to share with us...but next week we will go into the oral sources for these tales, the myths and also the folklore. Let's start slowly and pick up steam as we become more familiar with the elements of the tale.
Some fairly shocking things I never thought of. I'm going to ask 8 yr. old granddaugher to read both versions of Little Red Riding Hood and asked her which she preferred. I'm almost afraid to ask her WHY after reading what Bettelheim had to say about that1
Welcome everyone - this is going to be FUN!
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Hi, everyone. I too think that this topic is going to be fun and that I'm going to learn alot about fairy tales which I've always loved. (I hope I still love them when we're done!! ;) )
The book, "Enchanted hunters: the power of stories in childhood" by Maria Tatar, that I requested from an inter-library loan is on its way. I've also requested one of her other books that you just mentioned, JoanP, "The hard facts of the Grimms' fairy tales." I thought I'd take at least a peek at them. I'll let you all know what I find when I have time to look at them.
I'll read the two versions of Little Red Riding Hood and be back tomorrow.
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JoanP, since you found I Tatar book, I thought I'd look for Bettleheim's book for those who don't have it.
At least some of Bettleheim's thoughts about Little Red Riding Hood are available here in "The Uses of Enchantment":
http://books.google.com/books?id=qTbBAYVv_KkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=uses+of+enchantment&source=bl&ots=kjYCm28O4o&sig=t8WIO472zaSq_WvpXauW1OrOSCg&hl=en&ei=aelUTOmjEoacsQO4ucXZAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
Scroll down just a little bit to the table of contents and click on Little Red Riding Hood.
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Hi! I've also requested "Enchanted Hunters" on ILL. While looking it up I discovered that Maria Tatar has done a few other books on fairy tales. Our library system has her "Annotated Hans Christian Andersen" which she also translated - I read somewhere that Andersen often suffers from poor translations since a lot of his humor and sublety is lost in that way. I've asked for that book too.
Our local library has her "Off with Their Heads: fairy tales and the culture of childhood" - I can get that tomorrow.
There's so much out there!! A big subject!
I've borrowed Iona and Peter Opie's "The Classic Fairy Tales" gorgeously illustrated with many of the old pictures. This book contains 24 of the best-known fairy tales as they were first presented in English. There is a long general introduction and they also introduce each tale with some of its history. I liked the book so much that I poked about on the internet for a reasonable used copy, found one on ABEbooks. Yay! I just hope it's in decent shape.
This is making Latin suffer from neglect !! I'll be in trouble!!
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ADICHIE: WELCOME, WELCOME. You're never too late in these discussions, just pull up a seat and join right in. Check out our other discussions too, by hitting the arrow following "jump to" at the bottom of the page.
I don't have any fairytale books, but I'll follow and stick my two cents in once and a while.
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JoanR, can't you get Little Red Riding Hood in Latin? That might help. ;D
Marcie, thank you for the link to Bettelheim's book - that will help those who were unable to get a library copy.
JoanK - start with Perrault's Little Red Riding Hood and Grimm's "Little Red Cap" - links to these stories are in the heading. I'd like to hear what you think of each of these tales. Be sure to read the second Grimms' version, where they tack on the tale of another wolf who approaches Little Red on a later date...
Charles Perrault fascinates me. He brings these tales to the drawing room of the elite and wows them. What is his background? Is he a writer? Is he a member of the aristocracy in France? It's 1697. How's your history - who is on the throne?
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Believe Grimm's Little Red Riding Hood would be more suitable for children as has a rather happy ending. Not to sure a young child would understand the Moral at end of Perrault's version.
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I did some reading about Perrault.
He indeed comes from an aristocratic and successful family. His brother designed the original Louvre. he had a very successful career in Government and in the Arts. At age 47 he married a 19 year old and they had four children (a girl and three boys) before she died, just six years after they married.
At age 67 his career in govt. ended and he decided to collect and publish his children's favorite fairy tales. This effort, like all his others, was extremely successful. He published the book under the name of his youngest son.
It seems that Louis the xiv was on the throne for most of Perraults career. Among the most famous writers of the time were Racine and Madame La Fayette. The reigning philosophy of the time, according to the article, was "Encyclopedic Humanism" and the main goal of writers was thought to be "to please and to educate".
This is not an in depth analysis of the times but a brief survey that may provide the information needed for our main subject.
There are inumerable articles on Perrault on Google for those wanting a more detailed view of the man and his times.
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"Believe Grimm's Little Red Riding Hood would be more suitable for children as has a rather happy ending".
More or less by accident, I once went to a meeting of a folk tale group. One woman used to tell fairy stories at a local library, and said that she always gave them happy endings. But one man claimed that the tragic endings were important to children (He didn't really say why). I guess that's what we'll be talking about.
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I've just been browsing through Maria Tatar's "Off with Their Heads" and see that she is pretty critical of a lot that Bettelheim says. One example: "Much as Bettelheim sees himself as the advocate of children in his effort to sanctify their literature by purging it of the evils of adult interpretation (an impossible task since children's literature is produced by adults), his efforts misfire when it comes to fairy tales. ..... they none the less remain the creation of adults." pg.78
Early peasant oral versions of Red Riding Hood were very violent with racy episodes and sensational events. In Perrault and Grimm, we have a cautionary tale - don't stray from the path and don't speak to strangers! In some versions, Little Red Riding Hood & the grandmother are saved but in others they are consumed by the wolf. I suppose it depends on how strong one wants to make his admonition!
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I liked Little Red Cap by Brothers Grimm.
The little girl learned a few things.
* Don't listen to wolves
* Don't be distracted
*Stay on the trail.
L.A.P
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Here's my girl, Meanma's precious granddaughter - Lindsay is 8 years old - well, almost 9 ~ she's got a birthday coming up - real soon! I asked her which of the two tales she preferred...
Lindsay - you give great reasons for preferring the Grimm Brothers' "Little Red Cap." She learned some valuable lessons...She was rescued and had a second chance.
There is actually a second version the Grimms wrote - In that one, Little Red Cap goes out again and shows that she learned those lessons - Here's the second version - see the end - Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end ) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm026.html)
In the first version of "Little Red Riding Hood" - the wolf eats her up - and the poor grandmother too - and that's the end of the story. Charles Perrault does write a moral at the end...but Little Red didn't learn anything at all. The wolf ate her - She's gone. No second chances.
Did you notice the doting grandmother at the beginning of the story? Sounds like she was spoiling that girl something fierce. Does that sound familiar? Did you wonder why Little Red was sent into the woods alone when there were wolves in there?
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You know what I just noticed? The link in the heading to Perrault's tale is the version Andrew Lang collected for his Blue Fairy Book. It doesn't include
the Moral he later tacked on to the end of the story! I wonder why not. I guess I ought to change the link from Andrew Lang's to the later version with the moral -
Moral: Children, especially attractive, well bred young ladies, should never talk to strangers, for if they should do so, they may well provide dinner for a wolf. I say "wolf," but there are various kinds of wolves. There are also those who are charming, quiet, polite, unassuming, complacent, and sweet, who pursue young women at home and in the streets. And unfortunately, it is these gentle wolves who are the most dangerous ones of all.
Yes, I remember that Bettelheim was very critical of Perrault's attachment - his point was that the moral talked down to the child and took away from the child his/her own interpretation of the story, which Bettelheim considered so important to the child's development.
Kidsal, you were right - Lindsay preferred Grimm - but not for the reasons I thought she might, she doesn't mention the happy ending. She felt the little girl in the story learned her lesson. There was no mention of what she, herself had learned - on a subconscious level.
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Jude, thanks for filling us in on Charles Perrault's status in society. I think my next question is going to be - where did the oral fairy tales come from? Don't you wonder what they were like? Were they the early peasant versions JoanR describes? I'll bet he had to tone them down for the salons.
JoanR - there were a few others who wrote down the oral tales at the same time Perrault was writing his. I think it would be interesting to compare what they wrote with Perrault's, don't you. Let's hunt some up!
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This might be fun fo you all. Perraults moral of the Red Ridinghood storywritten in French rhyme) translated into English:
Moral
Young children, so we closely see
Pretty girls, especially,
Innocent of all life's dangers
Shouldn't stop and chat with strangers.
If this simple advice beats them
Its no surprise if a wolf eats them.
And this warning take,I beg:
Not every wolf runs on four legs.
The tongue of a smooth skinned creature
May mask a rough and wolfish nature.
These quiet types, for all their charm
Can be the cause of the worse harm.
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This spot looks like fun. May I join in when I have something to say?
As I was reading about the Brothers Grimm, I was reminded of being totally shocked as a small girl by the illustration of a horse's head hanging on a wall in a village. As I have always loved horses this terrible pic has always stayed in my memory. Or maybe it was Hans Christian Andersen's story.
Was there a Pink Fairy Book also? I remember reading some Persian fairy tales when I was small. Lots of flying horses, carpets and such. Can't remember the name of the book though.
My ex mother-in-law, in her wisdom, threw away some of my very precious childhood books, when she was in one of her frenzied clean-up modes, one of which was an original copy of "Pookie"; "I had Two Ponies" and a magnificent illuminated copy of a book my grandparents had brought over from England. Cassell's History of England. I was devastated by their loss and felt I had lost a part of my being.
At a certain age, about eight as I recall, I discovered "Myths and Heroes" by Gustav Schwab and my real passion in life was developed. All things Greek. Has there ever been a discussion about Greek Myths?
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I have been thinking about this issue of whether adults should aid children in understanding the moral of a fairy tale - or whether the fairy tale should just be presented to a child and the child left to a absorb/understand it in any way he or she does.
I remember reading Little Red Riding Hood (the Grimm brothers version) when I was young - as far as I can remember I just took it as a good story with a villain, a heroine, some suspense. I never thought about what it meant - I don't remember ever taking any lesson from the story. It touched me emotionally - I was scared for Red Riding Hood - I was worried about the grandmother - I was fearful of the wolf. But I'm not sure I got any life lesson out of it. Maybe I was just dense.
I am wondering what other people's experience of the story when they were young was.
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Welcome, Lindsay. I'm so glad that you joined us. Your grandmother told us that you like fairy stories and have a lot of them. I think that the first fairy I learned about was Tinker Bell from Peter Pan. I don't know if your fairies are like her.
Thank you for telling us which Little Red Riding Hood or Little Red Cap story you liked and what things Little Red Cap learned from her meeting with the wolf. You must be a good reader.
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I'm still reading the Bettleheim section on Little Red Riding Hood (I seem to only be able to read a little at a time). I'll post more when I've finished.
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In the days of my youth a predatory male was referred to as a wolf - as in wolf whistle. I seem to envision mine wearing a WW II soldier's uniform. I don't remember having fairy tales read to me, although I am sure they were; I read so early and so often that my own experience overlays any memory of the stories.
I do remember being read to from "Pilgrim's Progress" and the ensuing nightmares about the valley of the shadow of death. I think my mother had to read it for a class and thought I would not comprehend enough to be frightened by it. Mistaken assumption.
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The only thing that I remember being read to me was a Raggedy Ann story because I had the doll. I learned to read before school - actually from the "funny papers" - suddenly one Sunday, "Biff, bang, pow!" became real! That's a very vivid memory! Then I read every thing I could get hold of - fairy tales especially. " The Goose Girl", the story Roshanarose refers to, just about broke my heart and still is upsetting.
An early reader will read a lot of things that are beyond his comprehension but I sure understood the goose girl's loss of her horse!
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Good morning, Roshanarose! We are happy to have you join in this fascinating discussion. Welcome!
There are some links in the heading that may be of help during the discussion - and also some topics we are presently considering - though it is not necessary to stick to those questions...
You asked a question about the PINK Fairy books - in the heading there is a link to Andrew Lang's collection of colour Fairy Books. If you click on that - you will see the coloured Fairy Book covers. Did your ex- MIL discard your pink fairy book? When you click the pink book cover, you will see the Table of Contents - and then thanks to the wonders of the Internet, you can read the stories online! Here's the link that is found in the heading of this discussion: Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/)
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An early reader will read a lot of things that are beyond his comprehension
JoanR, I think I remember that as one of Bettelheim's points...that a child lets go by the things s/he doesn't understand or notice because s/he isn't ready to handle certain issues at that particular stage of development. Should the adult point out and explain these things to a child? I was interested to see that Lindsay picked up on the cautionary message of the story - that the little girl learned her lesson, but not clear that she picked up on what Perrault was saying. Andrew Lang's blue book story that I asked her to read did not include the admonition to little girls. I conclude that he(Perrault) thought the message might be lost on the readers of the tale - so felt compelled to add the admonition where it had not existed before. (Still smiling at the translation Jude brought in yesterday - a clear message of what happens to those who don't heed the warning! :D)
I'm just noticing some things now that I never paid attention to before - I guess I've reached the stage in my own development where I pick up on the doting grandmother who can't do enough for the littlle granddaughter. Did you notice in Perrault where he says Little Red's mother loved the little girl - but not as much as the grandmother did. That jumped right out of the page at me!
I'm thinking of the illustrated childern's books of Fairy Tales...have always loved Doré - I came across this link - Perrault's Tale with Doré's illustrations (http://www.angelfire.com/nb/classillus/images/perrault/perra.html) and couldn't help but thing that such graphic illustrations would bring some things to a child's attention that might not have been apparent when reading the story. Do you think these illustrations influenced a child's understanding of what s/he was reading?
I'm wondering if you think that illustrations might interfere with the child's own imaginery picture of what that wolf looks like - of Little Red's gullibility?
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My interest in fairy tales has been rekindled. As a child I remember the stories of "Cinderella," "The Three Little Pigs," "Goldilocks and the Three Bears," etc. But the story I remember most was "Little Red Riding Hood," the version where the woodman comes to the rescue. How satisfying it was for me to know that no matter what the problem was, help was on the way. As I became older, I realized that that was not always the case. Help was not always on the way. I learned that I was in charge of my own help, thus my own life. Therefore, I find the second ending of Grimm's "Little Red Riding Hood" having more meaning for me.
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I have been thinking of Bettelheim's comments on different endings and the effect on a child. For hundreds of years these tales were told by different storytellers without being written down. It stands to reason that the stories were different every time they were told - oral tradition is just like that. Different storytellers would always present a somewhat different version from each other. This would account for the differences between Little Red Riding Hood and Little Red Cap.
I heard an Alaskan professional storyteller, Jack Dalton, tell the creation story of his Yupik tribe. He talked about the necessity of having permission from the previous story teller to tell the story, and was rather miffed about a picture book illustrating the story for sale in Alaska; the producers "didn't have permission". The tribal stories he tells have a lot in common with fairy tales.
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Ursamajor - Your comment about the Alaskan storyteller and their creation stories put me in mind of our Australian Aboriginals and their stories of the 'Dreamtime' (creation myths etc). The 'elders' of the tribes pass on the stories to the next generation of whom only the chosen are permitted to tell some of the stories. And yes, there are some similarities between some of the 'Dreamtime' stories and the fairy tale.
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JoanK - As usual I've been lurking - this is such an interesting topic. I can't get the Warner book readily and doubt if there is any fairytale book in the house apart from Perrault's 'Mother Goose Stories' so wasn't going to participate but then out of curiosity I checked out Red Riding Hood in the header - I think that was my undoing.
The story I know from childhood is the one where the woodsman comes along and saves the day - but what really got my attention was that I scrolled down the page to read different versions and was surprised to see one there under the heading Lower Lusatia -
Lower Lusatia has more meaning for me than for most folk as DH's family emigrated from there to Australia in the 1850s. Strange to realise that we heard the same Red Riding Hood story in our childhood as did generations of DH's family in Lusatia.
The source for the Lusatian version is shown as from A.H Wratislaw with notes indicating Wratislaw's belief in RRH being a lunar legend with RRH as the moon wandering who is intercepted by the wolf (an eclipse) which tries to swallow the moon. The moon aka RRH is then rescued by the sun (the archer - ie woodsman). I find the combination of Greek, Norse, Slavonic and German myths and folklore so interesting - wish there was time enough to explore all these avenues.
I guess I'll keep lurking if I may.
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Welome, Gumtree !
JoanP, Marina Warner's beautifully illustrated book is a treasure one longs to have and hold, and turn to again and again. I read it in June and have just reordered it from the library for this discussion.
The author deals first with The Tellers (Part One, Chapters 1-12), continues with The Tales (Part Two, Chapters 13-22), and added a Conclusion.
She starts with the earliest figures and symbols: the Sybil in the Cunnean cave, enchantresses from classical mythologiy, biblical figures in various guises according to different traditions in different parts of the world (e.g. Saint Anne, he Queen of Sheba).
Gossip and transmission by word of mouth establshed and carried forward the tradition until Charles Perrault, whom you mentioned, collected and brought out The Tales of Mother Goose, well before the Brothers Grimm wrote theirs.
Warner points out that there is a dark side to some tales (very different from Disney's romanticized, "sanitized" versions), representative of all human traits, some anything but pretty - in short, the human condition.
I have not read anything by Bruno Bettelheim, only about alleged controversies laer in his life.
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Dean69 - you and Charles Dickens with your love for Little Red Riding Hood!
Dickens called Little Red Riding Hood his first love. "I should have known perfect bliss," he claimed if he had been able to marry her. What do you think he meant by that? He never got over his first love?
I loved your own coming of age story. Both Bettelheim and Warner look at that hunter as a protective father figure. But for every little girl reading the tale, he won't always be there for her. She must learn to protect herself. An important message from the tale, isn't it? One I don't think the young will bring away from the story.
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Ursa - I'd been wondering why Bettelheim warned that we read the tale to the child exactly as it was written. Was he referring to Grimms' version - or Perrault's? Now I'm thinking that perhaps he meant we must read the story exactly as written - but DON'T tell the tale yourself - no oral storytelling on your own. Do you think that's what he meant?
As you say, "for hundreds of years these tales were told by different storytellers without being written down. Different storytellers would always present a somewhat different version from each other." Bettelheim would understand that Alaskan storyteller of the Yupik tirbe...
I spent the better part of an hour trying to find the other versions of Red Riding Hood that were popular in the salons in the 17th century. Without success! I was certain I had read Madame d’Aulnoy's Red Riding Hood. I guess it was her Cinderella, which we should get to next week. While searching for her Red Riding Hood, I learned that she predated Charles Perrault, who is usually credited with having written down the first fairytales. D’Aulnoy was famous for the stories she told in her Parisian salon beginning in 1685 . . . Perrault, who moved in the same social circles, would have known these tales quite well. Maybe he wrote them down first... His niece Marie-Jeanne L'Heritier was also writing Fairy Tales shortly after her uncle wrote them down. There is a version of her Cinderella available too. It was Madame d'Aulnoy who first coined the term, "contes des fees" - fairy tales.
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Fortunately, my MIL did not throw out all my books. My ex and I were in transit and couldn't pack all the books in the car, so we left some under his bed at his home and instructed MIL we would be coming back for them. End of story..... Though, it still hurts.
It has been fascinating reading your takes on fairy stories. "The Goose Girl" - yes, you are right that was the name. As I said I can't remember its author, but that picture haunts me still, and not helped by a similar scene in "The Godfather". Just too awful.
GumtreeI managed to order a copy of the book you seek through www.fishpond.com.au. I ordered a 2nd hand version which costs $22.00 in paperback. The new book was c.$45.00. www.abebooks.com also have it - the cheapest being $32.60 + $8.50 postage.
When I think about Little Red Riding Hood, I always think of that song "Hey There Little Red Riding Hood. You sure are looking good. Walking through those spooky old woods alone" and so on.
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Gum - is that you lurking there in the spooky woods? So happy you're here. Can promise to put links to all the stories we are discussing - knowing that the Warner book is a problematic in the antipodes...
Can you relate the difference between the Grimm version and the one from Lower Lusatia (where is Lusatia?) I too find the myths and folklore behind the tales fascinating...we do have some time to consider them - maybe we'll even decide that we would like to revisit some of them in another discussion.
Traudee, you're fortunate to be able to get the Warner book back again. You're right, it is a treasure. Warner goes into the myths and the folklore, as you say. We're nearly ready to go into the oral storytelling behind Perrault's Little Red Riding Hood.
As you say, there is a dark side to these tales...and we are about to consider that. For those who have Warner's book - or Bettelheim's book, you are probably seeing those issues now. We're nearly ready to talk about some of those shocking stories...which, as Traudee pointed out are "anything but pretty - but in short, the human condition."
Roshanarose, I can imagine how that hurt. I remember losing several cartons of treasured books during a move many years ago. The superintendent in our building thought the boxes in the hallway were to be discarded - and by the time I got to him to ask if he saw them, he had emptied the boxes into the furnace! You never really forget something like that. I'm glad you'll have Marina Warner's book back on your shelf. It contains much of the kind of information that you are interested in...
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As many of you may know Bettleheim has been "defrocked" because of his false, misleading and cruel theory re: "Refrigerator Mothers" causing Autism in their children.
The ideas he suggests re Little Red Riding Hood in his book may have some nuggets of truth among the dozens of thoughts and ideas he espouses as the "ultimate truth" about this fairy tale and its effects on children.
I would take it all with many grains of salt. Bettelheim is a Freudian who thinks his Freudian interpretation is more Freudian than Freud himself. B is always too sure of himself and often views himself and his ideas as the ultimate and only truth.
Having been at lectures with this man and having met him personally I can say he accepted no idea that may have any different outcome than the one he suggested.
He put down people that dared to ask leading questions regarding his theories and never, ever accepted that he could be wrong. He may take what may be a little segment of truth and blow it out of proportion to what it was worth originally.
I am not denying that his book has some worth but only that one has to be careful not to swallow the chaff with the wheat.
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Oho...Jude, thank you so much! Just now I was reading some of Bettelheim's interpretations of the Little Red Riding Hood tale - and wondering how much of it was accepted, how much was his own...
Before I read your post, I was thinking it would be interesting to compare the two, Perrault's and Grimm's - before going
backwards to look at the oral tale Perrault is said to have used as his source. Maybe Bettelheim was using the pre-Perrault tale to reach some of these conclusions...(more Freudian than Freud himself?!)
Jude, as one in the know, will you fill us in on the "Refridgerator Mamas" ...causing Autism?
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This can get complicated. Let's do this - let's read the tale that seems to be recognized by those in the know as the translation that was the source material for Perrault' tale. After that we can consider Bettelheim's interpretation and explanation -
I'm not at all sure in what form Perrault heard this version of the story. He could not have heard this from his children!
HOLD ON TO YOUR LITTLE RED CAPS - it's quite a story!
"This is the version which, according to Paul Delarue, was the source material for the Perrault tale. The translation here is from Delarue via Jack Zipes from his "Trials and Tribulations of Little Red Riding Hood" -
"The Story of Grandmother" (http://reconstruction.eserver.org/022/cannibal/littlered.html)Perrault's probable source -
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JudeS, I too appreciate your posting that information about Bettleheim from your own professional and personal experience. I thought that some of the things that he said in his book made sense. For example, at the end of Part One in the section "On the Telling of Fairy Stories," he said "Telling is preferable to reading because it permits greater flexibility.... Slavishly sticking to the way a fairy story is printed robs it of much of its value. The telling of the story to a child, to be most effective, has to be an interpersonal event, shaped by those who participate in it. There is no getting around the possibility that this also contains some pitfalls. A parent not attuned to his child, or too beholden to what goes own in his own unconscious, may choose to tell fairy tales on the basis of his needs--rather than those of the child. . ."
That seems very open to understanding an individual child and tailoring a story a bit to the particular needs and interests of the child at a particular time.
Bettleheim seems like he was a very imaginative person and, likely, his telling of stories to children was entertaining and supportive. However, his descriptions of what the story "really means" --according to Freud--was too much for me. His Freudian interpretation of almost every single detail in the Little Red Riding Hood or Little Red Cap stories seems to me so over the top, they became almost funny to me, especially in light of recent thoughts about Freud. A 2006 Newsweek article called Freud "history’s most debunked doctor." http://www.newsweek.com/2006/03/26/freud-in-our-midst.html
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Marcie, I'm so glad you brought our attention to the last pages of Part One in Bettelheim's book - "On the Telling of Fairy Stories." I had the opposite impression from reading the Introduction in which he wrote the stories should be told as they were written. That the child would pick up on the points he was ready to deal with - and the parent or the teller was admonished not to explain anything more to a child than he/she was ready to understand...at his stage of development. (I remember wondering which version of the story he was talking about when he said that - concluded it must have been Grimm's.) That all made sense to me and I accepted it.
So I was quite surprised to read in this section that "a fairy tale should be told rather than read." It seems to me that a parent or the teller of the tale would have greater input into which parts of the tale is told to the child... Doesn't that seem to be the opposite of what he said in the Intro? I feel that a combination of reading and conversation with the child would be a better way to go. But I'm not Bruno Bettelheim!
I had to smile when he wrote-
"The loving grandmother who tells the tale to a child who, sitting on her lap, listens to it enraptured, will communicate something very different than a parent who, bored by the story, reads it to several children of quite different ages out of a sense of duty."
It will be interseting to read what Marina Warner thinks of Bettelheim's Freudian interepretations ...but first, am interested to hear what you thought of the oral tale on which Perrault is said to have based his written version of the story -
"The Story of Grandmother" (http://reconstruction.eserver.org/022/cannibal/littlered.html)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~ August Book Club Online
Source Book:
* From the Beast to the Blonde (http://www.librarything.com/work/432) by Marina Warner
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/beastbookcover.jpg) | Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and comprehensive study of the changing cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them. The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories. Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.")
Warner's book is huge. We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness. |
If you are unable to get your hands on this book, not to worry. The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those fortunate enough to locate Warner's book can share the commentary with the rest of us.
For Your Consideration - Week 2 ~August 8-15
1. Have you wondered how female writers treated the tales they heard from nurses and servants? Would they stick to the oral tales as they were told? Would they cast LRRH in a better light than their male counterparts?
2. Were the oral story tellers primarily men or women? Were those who collected the tales and wrote them down predominately men or women? What might this information tell you about the tales as they are written? (See Warner's book for more.)
3. "Spin a yarn" ~ "weave a plot" How do these phrases relate to fairy tales? (See Warner's book.)
4. Do you agree with Warner's description of a fairytale - "a moralizing from deep inside."
5. Are you ready for a new fairytale? How do Perrault's Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html#perrault) and the Brothers Grimm's 1812 version of Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html#grimm) differ? How do both of them compare to the earlier version- Cinder Maid (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html)?
Don't miss the Grimms' 1857 version of Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm021.html)!
6. Have you found any information on the silent fathers, the absent mothers and the presence of stepmothers in these fairy tales?
Related Links:
Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/); Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/); A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8T-ZWRehw&feature=related); Little Red Riding Hood (Charles Perrault - 1697) (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/321.htm); Little Red Riding Hood (Brothers Grimm - 1812) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html#grimm); Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end ) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm026.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) with JoanR, Guest DL
Ursamajor: The psychologists do love Little Red. See the link for a totally different Freudian interpretation by Eric Berne and others. Berne had a theory that one chooses a fairy tale and models one's life on it.
http://hubpages.com/hub/So-Whats-The-History-Behind-The-Little-Red-Riding-Hood
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JOAN P: Don't know much about Charles Dickens' life, but if "Little Red Riding Hood" was his first love and if marriage to her would have been perfect bliss maybe his real marriage (if he was married) wasn't "perfect bliss." We never forget our first love although it may not be as perfect in retrospect as we imagine.
This discussion is most opportune for me. I am preparing a series of biography lectures to be presented early next year. The first one will be L. Frank Baum author of “The Wizard of Oz” which is considered the first American Fairy Tale. I’m getting a lot of help from this discussion.
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I just finished reading the link to "The Story of Grandmother" and my eyes are just recovering from the red background!!
That forerunner to our familiar tale of "Little Red Riding Hood" is echoed in the ones to the Italian "Caterinella" In that tale cannibalistic urges drive only the villain, not the heroine. In the oral tale pre-Perrault, RRH seems to enjoy the taste of flesh and blood while Caterinella is frequently invited to eat her grandmother's teeth and ears (!!!) but refuses.
from "Enchanted Hunters" by Tatar:
Luciano Pavoratti described his experience with “Little Red Riding Hood”…the tale enabled him to face up to and banish childhood anxieties. “In my house,” he recalls, “it was my grandfather who told the stories.. My favorite one was “Little Red Riding Hood”. I identified with her. I had the same fears as she. I didn’t want her to die. “ P. experienced the story of the girl’s death and resurrection in a safe setting, one that enabled dread to turn into comfort and enchantment.”
Maria Tatar goes on to say, “her story, simple as it is, takes on and enacts the great mysteries about villainy, violence, birth and mortality, revealing the true uses of enchantment.”
There is So much out there on Little Red Riding Hood!
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Joan P:
In answer to your question re "REFRIGERATOR MOTHERS" I will try to give you a sliver of an answer. If you have further questions on the matter I will answer them as well.
In his book "The Empty Fortress" Bettelheim put forth the theory that Autism arose in cases where Mother's withheld affection from their children and failed to connect with them since these mothers didn't want their children to exist. The Fathers in these cases were weak and ineffectual.
REFRIGERATOR MOTHERS were women who caused Autism in their children because of their own emotional frigidity.
Today we know that there is a neurological base for this disorder. However Bettelheim's theory caused immeasurable stress and despair in families with Autistic children around the world.
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JoanR - I'm so sorry about the red background - I hope noone else gave up for the same reason. This is the oral tale on which Perrault based the first known written tale -
I'm going to paste here to make it easier to read. then we can talk about Bettelheim and Freud...
The Story of Grandmother
There was a woman who had made some bread. She said
to her daughter:
"Go carry this hot loaf and bottle of milk to your granny."
So the little girl departed. At the crossway she met bzou,
the werewolf, who said to her:
"Where are you going?"
"I'm taking this hot loaf and bottle of milk to my granny."
"What path are you taking." said the werewolf, "the path
of needles or the path of pins?"
"The path of needles," the little girl said.
"All right, then I'll take the path of pins."
The little girl entertained herself by gathering needles.
Meanwhile the werewolf arrived at the grandmother's house,
killed her, and put some of her meat in the cupboard and a bottle of her blood on the shelf. The little girl arrived and knocked at the door.
"Push the door," said the werewolf, "It's barred by a piece of wet straw."
"Good day, granny. I've brought you a hot loaf of bread and a bottle of milk."
"Put it in the cupboard, my child. Take some of the meat
which is inside and the bottle of wine on the shelf."
After she had eaten, there was a little cat which said:
"Phooey!... A slut is she who eats the flesh and drinks the
blood of her granny."
"Undress yourself, my child," the werewolf said, "And come
lie down beside me."
"Where should I put my apron?"
"Throw it into the fire, my child, you won't be needing it
any more."
And each time she asked where she should put all her other
Clothes, the bodice, the dress, the petticoat, the long stockings,
the wolf responded:
"Throw them into the fire, my child, you won't be needing
them anymore."
When she laid herself down in the bed, the little girl said:
"Oh granny, how hairy you are!"
"The better to keep myself warm, my child!"
"Oh granny, what big nails you have!"
"The better to scratch me with, my child!"
"Oh granny, what big shoulders you have!"
"The better to carry the firewood, my child!"
"Oh granny, what big ears you have!"
"The better to hear you with, my child!"
"Oh granny, what big nostrils you have!"
"The better to snuff my tobacco with, my child!"
"Oh granny, what a big mouth you have!"
"The better to eat you with, my child!"
"Oh granny, I have to go badly. Let me go outside."
"Do it in the bed, my child!"
"Oh no, granny, I want to go outside."
"All right, but make it quick."
The werewolf attached a woolen rope to her foot and let her
go outside.
When the little girl was outside, she tied the end of the rope
to a plum tree in the courtyard. The werewolf became impatient and said: "Are you making a load out there? Are you making a load?"
When he realized that nobody was answering him, he jumped out of bed and saw that the little girl had escaped. He followed her but arrived at her house just at the moment she entered
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Thank you, Jude. Autism is still such a mystery, though more is known than back in Bettelheim's day. We have friends with a little boy who has this - a boy who is 11 now. His parents took him everywhere for help, dad gave up his job to stay home to homeschool. The marriage couldn't stand the stress. ...There is still so much that is unknown.
Look here - I found this 3 minute film on Bettelheim on Autism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQY2oB3Rqdg) on the Dick Cavett show years ago - Hearing about Bettelheim's experience in Dachau, you can almost understand where he was coming from...
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Dean69, that's quite an interesting topic - the Wizard of Oz, the first American Fairytale. I'd like to hear more about this - and your definition of "fairy tale" - are you getting into background information for Baum's story?
You asked about Charles Dickens' marriage...which brought back quite a few memories of our last discussions of one of Dickens' books -
The Mystery of Edwin Drood (1870). Some of you will remember the discussion of his marriage to Catherine Hogarth, mother of his 10 children. Her young sister died in Charles' arms - he never got over her. Later he was unfaithful to his wife with young actresses. He had a thing about younger women - I can see where he would have been 'blissfully happy' with Little Red Riding Hood as his wife...
When we talk about Bettelheim's Freudian interpretation of the tale, are we talking about his Oedipal interpretations...Little Red's repressed desire for her father? Or is there more? Was he the only one who regards the wolf this way? Did you see that before Bettelheim suggested it? If you have Bettelheim's book will you see what he has to say about this?
I just read the article that Ursa posted this morning -
"Freud was the father of the psychoanalytic school of thought which believes that all human behaviour is motivated by sexuality. As such, fairy tales become vehicles for teaching new members of society sexual lessons."
The tale has so many sexual markers and overtones … it has been recognized as a sexual tale for so many centuries-
http://hubpages.com/hub/So-Whats-The-History-Behind-The-Little-Red-Riding-Hood
So that seems to say that Bettelheim - or Freud for that matter, were not alone in seeing the sexual connotations in Little Red Riding Hood...
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I'm glad you are in the discussion, dean69. For what kind of program are you presenting the biography lectures? I'd love to learn more about L. Frank Baum. I loved the Wizard of Oz as a child.
JoanP and all, I read "The Story of Grandmother" last night and don't know that I've read it before. If I did, I've forgotten. At first I thought the taking off of each piece of clothing was toward titallation but thinking it over, I'm not sure that young children would see it that way. Children may experience it more as a step-by-step device to build suspense and prolong the time until the big bad wolf does something to Little Riding Hood (which they must sense is going to happen). It may be similar to your knowing that the hero/heroine in the horror movie should not go up the steps, go down the hallway, open each door and look in the closet. I'm not sure. Maybe children today are more attuned to sexually seductive nuances.
Maria Tatar provides an introduction and annotates each fairy tale in a beautiful big book, The Annotated Classic Fairy Tales, which contains many interesting illustrations.
Little Red Riding Hood is the first story in the book. It's the Grimm version. Tatar also includes two other versions in the appendix. One version is "The Story of Grandmother" (as told by Louis and Francois Briffault in Nievre, 1885). The story is the same as the one you linked to, Joan, with minor differences in translation of some words, for example, instead of saying "Are you making a load out there?" He says, "Are you making cables out there?" (not sure what that means). The other version in the Appendix is Charles Perrault's version with the moral at the end.
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Answer to Question 1: Why do you think BB found it more rewarding to tell Fairy Tales than other types of stories in helping severely disturbed children?
Tell Fairy Tales to severley disturbed children? Hmm, having worked with that population for over 35 years (with a high rate of success) the whole point of the therapy was to help the child create stories, drawings or collages of his\her inner turmoil i.e. give it a form that could be shared with a helpful adult.
Fairy Tales are wonderful for normal children and sometimes even for adults. Children who have been raped, beaten,starved or abandoned physically or emotionally have seen enough of horror. The last thing they need is to hear some of those horrific versions of LRRH.
You asked why BB thought it was a good idea. In my very jaded opinion of this man it was a way of not digging into the
terrible reality the child harbored within himself since that takes being quiet and listening to nuances. BB was bombastic and broached no disagreement to his ideas. He probably thought that by telling these tales that deal with the reality of fictional children with positive outcomes he was hitting some streams in the disturbed childs unconcious that eventually would be helpful.
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I read the Brothers Grimm version to my youngest grandson last night. After he had heard the story he made two interesting statements/questions.
To me:
Grandma Caro?
Me: Yes. Harry.
I don't think that story is true. Because it says the wolf eats the granny and the little girl.
Me: And?
Well, if the wolf ate them they would be in pieces inside his belly. So. They would be dead.
Me: Yes. Harry. You are right.
The other observation:
Harry: I know why the little girl's hat was red.
Me: Why is that?
Harry: Because it was covered in blood in the wolf's belly.
Me: You may be right, Harry.
Harry is nine. I thought that it was a very modern take on a fairy tale. Computers games and TV programs also show lots of blood.
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If you have a somewhat warped sense of humour (like mine) you may enjoy reading the politically correct version of LRRH from about.com. Here are the first couple of lines.
"There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived on the edge of a large forest full of endangered owls and rare plants that would probably provide a cure for cancer if only someone took the time to study them.
Red Riding Hood lived with a nurture giver whom she sometimes referred to as "mother", although she didn't mean to imply by this term that she would have thought less of the person if a close biological link did not in fact exist.
Nor did she intend to denigrate the equal value of nontraditional households, although she was sorry if this was the impression conveyed. "
It goes on....
www.politicalhumor.about.com and do a search for LRRH.
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When I was a child, I read Little Red Riding Hood, but it was never a favorite. The Ursa posting, the interpretation of Eric Berne was an eye opener! It made me feel a bit sad there was all "that" going on, when all I understood was a tale about a little girl going to visit her grandmother..... Children live in their own world and are often surprised to find out that things are not always as they seem.
1966 Sam the Sham and The Pharaohs recorded a song, "Little Red Riding Hood" ("you sure are looking good, you're everything a big bad wolf could want.."). It's on You Tube, and one version features an old, black and white cartoon version from 1931 which seems very fitting.
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But ivmfox - you heard more than a sweet story of a little girl stopping to pick flowers on her way to Grandma's house, didn't you? You read abut the wolf in the woods, with big teeth - and how he swallowed grandma...and the little girl too. There was a lot of stuff going on - Didn't that bother you? Or were you quite philosophical about the story - like roshanarose's young grandson? He knew the story couldn't be real, but do you think he took away a moral, a message from the tale?
THere is a similarity to those video games, don't you think? Losts of blood that seems to disappear in the next cell or frame. Just like Little Red Riding Hood and Grandma, emerging whole from the wolf's belly after being chewed up and swallowed by the wolf.
It's funny how allusions to fairy tales, and the tale of Little Red Riding Hood pop up during a discussion - is this the 1931 version you referred to?
Dizzy Red Riding Hood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR1SJMG0OlA)
Jude, we need to talk some more about Bettelheim and his belief in the importance of reading fairy tales to disturbed and abused children. I have great respect for your estimation of the man. To be fair, I think he was talking about reading the Grimm Bros. version - rather than those horrific versions of LRRH -
Today, let's consider his thoughts about the benefits of reading the tales to disturbed children - and particularly his interpretations on the different aspects of Little Red Riding Hood.
Marcie finds every aspect of his views "over the top" too - so let's also look at Tatar and Warner's view too - how do their views differ from Bettelheim's?
Back in a few ...
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roshanarose, your grandson Harry's reaction is very interesting. I'm glad that you read him the story and posted about it. Harry's response made me think about children's distinguishing between "reality" and "fantasy." I'm not sure if those are the right constructs but I found some info about a related research project undertaken in 2004 at http://mixingmemory.blogspot.com/2004/12/fantasy-reality-distinction-in.html.
LOL, roshanarose. There is a set of Politically Correct Bedtime Stories. http://www.amazon.com/Politically-Correct-Gift-Set-Enlightened/dp/0028607260/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281203628&sr=1-3-spell
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Marcie, that was an interesting link to the paper by Tanya Sharon and Jaqueline Woolley on the child's ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality.
"Piaget believed that children were not able to form a sharp distinction between fantasy and reality, and some research specifically on fantasy beliefs has borne this out. Three year olds, for instance, have trouble distinguishing between real and fantasy animals, when presented with drawings, and children are often confused by fantastical events that they find frightening. "
Do you think this means that three year olds are not ready for fairy tales?
Jude, do you believe that exposing disturbed children to fairy tales will confuse and frighten them?
"With experience , children acquire increasing knowledge about everything in their world—both about real entities and their properties, and about such socially supported myths as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Thus, there is the simultaneous development of beliefs considered correct (e .g. dinosaurs are real) and of beliefs considered incorrect but age-appropriate (e .g. Santa is real).
As children believe in the reality of fantasy figures, or are unable to say with certainty that they are pretend, they treat them very differently from real entities in terms of the properties and abilities they are willing to grant. In this way, children seem to place fantastical entities in a separate category—neither unquestionably real nor pretend, but somewhere in between."
I located the passages in Bettelheim's book in which he explains why he thinks fairy tales are valuable to a child's development...including disturbed children. Will type them here now.
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Bettelheim on Fairy Tales:
"In order to master the psychological problems of growing up - overcoming narcissistic disappointments, oedipal dilemmas, sibling rivalries, becoming able to relinquish childhood dependencies; gaining a feeling of selfhood and of self-worth, and a sense of moral obligation - a child needs to understand what is going on within his conscious self so that he can also cope with what is going on in his unconscious...
"In child or adult, the unconscious is a powerful determinant of behaviour. ..."The message that fairy tales get across to the child - that a struggle against severe difficulties in life is unavoidable, an intrinsic part of human existence.
Modern stories written for young children mainly avoid these issues. "Safe stories mention neither death or aging; the limits of our existence nor the wish for eternal life. The fairy tale by contrast, confronts the child squarely with the basic human predicaments."
When I was reading this, I was found myself nodding in agreement. B. gives the example - that many fairy tales begin with the death of a mother or father. I have noticed that mothers are "absent" in many of these tales. My own mother died when I was seven - and the fact was not lost on me as I was growing up. We'll talk more of these absent mothers as we move along.
Do you think that Bettelheim is off the mark when he finds the fairy tale the most beneficial literature a child can read?-
He believes that primers are designed to teach the necessary skills of reading, irrespective of meaning. He says "the bulk of "children's literature" attempts to entertain or to inform, or both, but that most of these books are so shallow in substance that little of significance can be learned from them.
Because his life is bewildering to him, the child needs to be given the chance to understand himself in this complex world with which he must learn to cope. He needs a moral education, which conveys to himthe advantages of moral behaviour, through that which is meaningful to him.
The child finds this kind of meaning through fairy tales."
Because you are both a psychologist AND a lover of Fairy Tales, Jude, I am very intrested to hear your thoughts on what Bettelheim has to say here. What do the rest of you think?
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Joan P:
The scariest story I ever told a slightly disturbed child was "Peter Rabbit". The boy had reached a point in his therapy where he could FEEL SORRY for Peter who was unable to control his behavior and suffered for that. Peter did something wrong andso his Mom punished him. You could say his Ego was weaker than his Id but that would certainly spoil the story.
Bettleheims theories relate nicely to normal children who can process evil in stories because their is none in their real lives. Through these Fairy Tales they learn that there are wicked people in the world and it will help them to recognize those people if and when they meet up with them. Normal children can also learn from these stories that bad things can happen to nice little girls and boys like themselves. It can help them to meet future trauma and know that they are not alone.
Children who have suffered evils on their own frail bodies and souls must learn to share that pain with those who can assuage their pain. These children, if they want a story it is something that will make them smile or perhaps laugh. Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse come to mind.
So normal kids plus fairy tales=YES!
Abused, disturbed and suffering children= NO!
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Thanks, Jude. I can understand what you are saying. I guess I don't understand how Bettelheim reached the conclusion that the disturbed child could relate to fairy tales without scaring him to death!
Bettelheim has a note in his book expressing surprise at Andrew Lang's selection of Perrault's version of Little Red Riding Hood for his Blue Fairy Book. B. says he prefers Grimm's story because Little Red Cap and the grandmother are reborn, and the wolf punished, not the little girl and her grandmother. Bettelheim says that Lang's choice indicates Lang's belief that it is better to scare children into good behavior than to relieve their anxieties as a true fairy tale does."
Bettelheim speaks at length of how Perrault has destroyed the original tale in his attempt to teach a specific moral. He says Perrault destroyed the tale by being so explicit, leaving nothing to the imagination.
Does Bettelheim see the danger of scaring already disturbed children? Jude indicates that disturbed children would be frightened hearing Grimm's tale as well.
He writes that the threat of being devoured is the central theme of LRRH and other tales - I don't ever remember being affraid of being eaten.
Marina Warner writes that the threat of animals was a real and frightening one in the 17th and 18th centuries; in times of scarcity and hard winters, bears and wolves came in from the wild to prey on towns and villages.
So the threat was very real at the time.
Somewhere I read that the thinking on Bettelheim's approach to fairy tales has changed...that they are back on children's bookshelves. Have you seen anything about that?
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Oh my, while searching for the modern thought on Fairytales, I came across this article...which comes close to describing what Jude has been warning us about. My question - is there enough of a reason for us to continue to read the man's book and his interpretations of the fairytales?
The Case of Bruno Bettelheim (http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9706/articles/finn.html)
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I thought we were going to discuss Beast to Blonde??
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Yes, we are, Kidsal. The plan was to use both Bettelheim and Warner as resources. Not sure what to do about Bettelheim now. . It will be interesting to discuss Warner's take on the Freudian aspects of Little Red Riding Hood. The fact that her book is more current may make a difference and shed some light on how Bettelheim is regarded today. I thought I read somewhere that his views were back in favor. Maybe I'm wrong. Please feel free to jump in at any time with what you have found in Warner's book. We'd love to hear from you.
Have any of you wondered if the women who collected and wrote down Fairy Tales in the 17th century while Perrault was writing portrayed Little Red as naive or as seductive as far as the wolf was concerned? After reading how Perrault prettified the source tale, it seems to me that he and others who "collected" the tales had some lattitude when it came to putting the oral tale in writing.
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Joan P. & Marcie: The biography of L. Frank Baum that I'm teaching is for the Shepherd Center, a senior citizen group that meets once a week for classes, lunch and general social interaction. Classes include, music (all types), history, religion, writing, painting, general health issues, literature, traveling, etc. I will be presenting 9 biographies, one each week during the winter term starting with L. Frank Baum. Classes run for 50 minutes.
Baum was a sickly child who avoided sports and other boisterous activates, but he loved to read. However he thought the fairy tales of his youth were too scary and violent, so he would soften them when telling them to children. He married Maud Gage, daughter of Matilda Joslyn Gage, who along with Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony was a prominent women’s suffrage activist. It was Matilda who suggested that Frank write down some of stories he told children that eventually led to his writing “The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.” Oz became an instant success. A Broadway play of the story ran for several years and we know the success of the 1939 movie with Judy Garland which incidentally Frank who died in 1919 never saw..
I have been reading the Andrew Lang"s Fairy Tales found on the website at the top of the discussion page. What a treat. I wish I had known about some of them when my children were young. I was struck by Bettleheim’s description of fairy tales as being optimistic and myths, pessimistic. Is that really true?
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Hello Dean69! I was just thinking of you this morning - and the Wizard of Oz as the first American Fairy Tale. IAn interesting biograpy on Frank Baum. I'm interested in The Wizard of Oz...the background stories that led to his writing the tale. Do you know if the story was his own, before he put it in writing, or if he drew from other oral tellings of the story?
I thought of you as I was posting some new questions for consideration in the coming week -
In her book, Marina Warner described a fairy tale as - "a moralizing from deep inside." Do you understand what she was saying? I was thinking of that description as applied to Wizard of Oz.
I'm not sure that I see Myths as pessimistic...I remember reading on the difference between myths and fairy tales in Bettelheim's introduction. He starts by saying that some fairy and folk stories evolved out of myths, others were incorporated into them.
"Myths and fairy tales have much in common. But in myths, much more than in fairy stories, the culture hero is presented to the listener as a figure he ought to emulate in his own life, as far as possible.
A myth, like a fairy story may express inner conflict in symbolic form and suggest how it may be solved. ...Much as we mortals may strive to be like these heroes of myth, we will remain always and obviously inferior to them."
"we will remain always and obviously inferior to them"
So will the child be left feeling inferior to them? I'd say in that sense, one might say myths convey a rather pessimistic message to the child...what do you think?
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I agree with Kidsal. Let's give Bettelheim a decent agnostic burial and move on to From the Beast to the Blonde.
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JoanP, wonderful things are known happen in our discussions, which is borne out by facts, and the truth. The participants are keys in any discussion, and when they share their personal and/or especially their professional experience on any subject - and often in more than one subject!! - we're all the richer of it. Many thanks for the well-informed exchanges weve had here.
In particular I'd like to applaud Jude for her posts about Bettelheim, autistic children, Freudian reverberations, etc specifically the last one I saw yesterday: Because it is important not only for the information it provides, but could be viewed as the answer (unintended, of course) to Question 7 : And I paraphrase, " Why was Bettelheim dismissive of Charles Perrault?
Like Kidsa, I had looked forward and prepared for the discussion of Marina Warner's Book, and that's what I'd like to explore to the extent possible.
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Ursa, Traudee, have you considered the new questions in the heading here today for the coming week? Those are intended to send you exploring into Warner's book - she has plenty to say on the tellers of the tales.
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Joan P:
Thank you so much for putting on this site the article regarding Richard Pollacks book on Bettleheim in which he slams him into the ground and then buries him. I read the book but didn't want to bring it up for fear that you all would see me as completely biased.
I am slowly wending my way through Warner's book and would be happy to discuss what I have read so far.
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I agree with the thoughts expressed here - those relating to Bruno Bettelheim especially - although I have a lingering question on Little Red and the Freudian aspects of the tale.
Ursamajor posted a most interesting site on the subject, I hope you get a chance to read it. I've pulled out some of the points that led me to my question for you -
The story, as do many others in folklore and myth, has a strong Oedipal leaning – it is an expression of Freud’s basic human desire to replace our parent of the same sex, in a relationship with our parent of the opposite sex – therefore, a young man’s desire to replace his father, and a young woman’s desire to replace her mother in relation to her father. We see much supporting evidence for a Freudian interpretation of Little Red Riding Hood within the tale – it is not all far-flung, tenuous links and coincidences.
Freud was the father of the psychoanalytic school of thought which believes that all human behaviour is motivated by sexuality. As such, fairy tales become vehicles for teaching new members of society sexual lessons. However, these must be oblique lessons: it goes against so many of our society’s values to overtly indoctrinate sexuality into our children. At the same time, sexuality is an important part of our adult lives, and as with other areas of life, it is the responsibility of parents and other adults to teach children how to relate to these social phenomena. However, there are several differing, sexual interpretations of the Little Red Riding Hood parable – exactly what message is being sent to those reading it for the first time cannot be agreed on!
The way the Little Red Riding Hood tale teaches children about the roles of their gender has also been researched extensively. The mother of the tale, who tells Red Riding Hood not to stray from the path, represents a woman who knows her place within the patriarchal society. The fact that Little Red Riding Hood strays from the path, talks to a strange man (‘Don’t talk to strangers!’), and dawdles, against her mother’s instructions, and comes to harm, is a lesson to young girls to accept what society dictates they must do, or come to harm. “This action, an expression of her own desire, is the cause of her troubles” (Cranny-Francis, 1992, p123).
http://hubpages.com/hub/So-Whats-The-History-Behind-The-Little-Red-Riding-Hood
I have these questions for you -
*1. Do you think (or do you know for a fact) that Bettelheim was not the only one who saw Red Riding Hood in this light - as a young woman who desired to replace her mother in relation to her father? Does Warner comment on this Freudian view? I've a reason for asking this as we move on to other tales.
*2. Do you think most fairy tales are based on this assumption - that every young girl or boy dreams of replacing her father or his mother in the parent's affection? Or is this just the view of ...Freudians?
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Before we move on, I'd like to comment on how we had planned (and still do plan) to use Marina Warner's book - as a source book to use as we consider some individual fairy tales. Quite a few of those participating in this discussion were unable to get the book. Be assured that you don't need it to discuss this book - this discussion is ABOUT the FAIRYTALES, not Warner's book. We never planned to discuss this big book as we would in a regular book discussion.
From the Beast to the Blonde is an excellent sourcebook - with a detailed index in the back of the book. As we discuss certain tales, or different aspects of the tales, it is hoped that those fortunate to have the book in hand will check to see what Warner has to say about them, bring those thoughts here for all of us to consider in this discussion.
Little Red Riding Hood, Cinderella and Snow White seem to represent various aspects of the fairy tale whichWarner (and Bettelheim) discuss at length. I thought we would discuss those three tales first - and then, in the final week, leave it up to you all to suggest other tales you would like to discuss as a group. (Of course you can bring up any that you want in the course of the discussion.)
So this week, let's focus on Cinderella - the one most of us are familiar with - Grimm's, the earlier written version of Perrault's, and a much earlier oral form - Cinder Maid. There are links to these three tales in the heading - (Scroll up to the top of this page to the first post for links and questions for your consideration. Marina Warner has much to say about the early storytellers - and Cinderella. If you have the book please share some of what you read on this!
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Look, Bettelheim has been removed from the heading! Let's talk Warner today. Let's talk Cinderella!
Have you had a chance to read any of the versions of Cinderella? I had decided to begin with the Grimms' version and move backwards to the earlier oral versions ...and made a startling discovery. I thought the Grimms' version of 1812 would be the tale we familiar with - as their "Little Red Riding Hood" was the one we grew up on - and read to our own children... Have you had a chance to read it?
the Brothers Grimm's 1812 version of Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html#grimm)
Where's the Fairy godmother? The pumpkin coach? It is very interesting - and moving, but certainly NOT the Cinderella we knew. Then I discovered that 45 years later they came out with another version of Cinderella. Aha, I thought - this will be the Cinderella I know!
the Grimms' 1857 version of Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm021.html)
What do you think? So when did the fairy godmother first make an appearance? This is of personal interest to me...
I have an old story book of Cinderella, I've had it since I was five or six years old -It has a 1943 copyright - by John Sherman Bagg. The book has the most glorious illustrations.. I'll scan the one of the fairy godmother later today. Here's the first paragraph in this book -
"Once upon a time there lived a little girl who was very unhappy. She was sad because her mother was dead. She lived with a cruel stepmother and two stepsisters. Her father lived with them too, but she hardly ever saw him."
My mother died when I was seven. I read this book over and over until it nearly fell apart. I'm holding it in my hands right now and wondering whether the old versions would have meant more to me than the fairy godmother did all those years ago. I wonder when the protective mother and the hazel nut tree morphed into the fairy godmother. I don't think I ever put it together - that the fairy godmother was the mother's spirit. Did you?
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I did not remember the pigeons who helped with the onerous work Cinderella had to do in the 1857 version. I don't remember any helpful critters until the Disney movie, in which a lot of Cinderella's work is done by mice and other small creatures who sing happily. You would not expect the "Disney version" to hark back to the earlier work. The story definitely suffers from the lack of the fairy godmother, who is obviously a loving maternal presense. A tree is a poor substitute.
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Our book group is meeting at my house this afternoon and I'm rushed. Will be on line in early evening. I'll have my own first book of Grimm's Märchen on hand then.
The German title of Cinderella is Aschenputtel; (Asche = cinders)
Little Red Riding Hood is Rotkäppchen (compound noun. käppchen is a small cap or hood, rot, of course is red)..
More later
P.S. There's really no translation for "-puttel (Aschenputtel). It's a term used "for the least of them" as it were. Think of Ruby in Upstairs Downstairs.
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Thanks for putting the Chinese Version of the story on line for us. Finally the mystery (for me at least) of the importance of small feet to win the Prince has been solved. It has to do with the Chinese Fetish of regarding small feet as a thing of great beauty. Perhaps all ancient people worshipped small feet as this seems to be a sign of nobility of some sort.
As a child this was the least favorite in the fairy tale book I owned. As an adult the movie was also my least favorite of the Disney versions put on the screen.
It may be I had absolutely nothing to identify with in this story. I didn't have any sisters, my own Mother was a kind person and I never dreamed of marrying a Prince. All the stories about LITTLE girls I adored especially Hansel and Gretel -my favorite heroine who saved herself and her brother from the evil witch by being clever and cunning.
Later on Gretel was replaced by Pippi Longstockings and later, Nancy Drew. Thinking about Pippi brings to mind the Norse Fairy tales which are somewhat different but delightful in their own way.
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I've just been to the library and have found an "Annotated Brothers Grimm" by Maria Tatar with an intro. by A.S.Byatt. (How she does pop up!) Byatt says of Tatar that "she is a true scholar who writes beautifully, not a theorist making use of the material for her own ends." Now, could that be a slap at Bettleheim?
She has a criticism of Andersen as well - she says that Grimm's tales might be funny or horrible but they are never disturbing. "They never twisted your spirit with sick terror as Andersen so easily did". I would dispute that - his tales could make one terribly sad but not terrified whereas some of the tales I remember from Grimm, such as "The Juniper Tree" disturbed me no end!
In Cinderella, the good mother (or the spirit of) is represented by the fairy godmother
The good mother/bad mother theme runs through the various versions of the Cinderella story. Tatar says that in the splitting of the mother into 2 polar opposites, psychologists have seen a mechanism for helping a child work through the conflicts of maturing and separating from parents.
"The image of the good mother is preserved in all her nurturing glory even as feelings of resentment and helplessness are given expression thru the figure of the wicked, predatory stepmother."
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Jude, I am still smiling at the idea that you disliked Cinderella because you couldn't identify with the story- but LOVED
Hansel and Gretel (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/302.htm) - from Andrew Lang's Blue Fairy Book. What did you like about it? Right off, we are told that it is the MOTHER who wants to get rid of her two little children and sends them into the forest, hoping they will get lost! You must have liked the gingerbread house...with the sugar window panes! Let's remember this mother when we talk about the absent mother in so many of these stories...
The story (Grimms') definitely suffers from the lack of the fairy godmother, who is obviously a loving maternal presense. A tree is a poor substitute.
But Ursa, that was Cinderella's story- until someone decided to change that tree and the helpful birds, into the fairy godmother. (Disney gave us both - birds, mice AND the loving, matenal fairy godmother. I had assumed that up until the tales were written down, they changed with the teller, but once writen down they really didn't change that much. I guess I got that idea from what we saw with "Little Red Riding Hood" - though the Grimm Bros. did add to that story, didn't they?
Marina Warner's book contains this illustration - from a Chapbook, London, 1820. Look - A fairy godmother! In 1820! (http://books.google.com/books?id=R-i-_UN4RSMC&pg=PA504&lpg=PA504&dq=Chapbook++London+1820++cinderella&source=bl&ots=AsXJ17bCHW&sig=6Z_cZslu3MXI4JTpMRidh5Bj94k&hl=en&ei=aPdhTPOqIMP58Aa-sompCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Chapbook%20%20London%201820%20%20cinderella&f=false)
Traudee, let us know what you find in your German version. Do you remember reading about a fairy godmother in this story as a child?
Have any of you had a chance to read Perrault's Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html#perrault) yet? (This is a link to the entire tale.) I thought it was interesting that Perrault's version is the one Andrew Lang chose for his Blue Fairy Book. He must have liked the godmother, the godmother who was a fairy. Why did the Grimms disappear the fairy godmother...the pumpkin coach, etc. These were the magical elements of Cinderella!
"In Cinderella, the good mother (or the spirit of) is represented by the fairy godmother"
JoanR - great, we can substitute Tatar's annotations for Mr. BB's ;)
Two things stand out for me in each of these versions...maybe three. Mother is absent from the story - except in spirit, looking over Cinderella from afar. If she's nurtureing, she's doing that from afar. Father seems to have vanished from the scene right after the wedding. He offers no protection, but he must be providing for the stepmother - who is described consistantly in all of these stories as being proud, haugthy and resentful at Cinderella's presence in her life.
Warner comments on each of these situations. It's a big fat book...we welcome any comments you have noted!
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Here's a link to Perrault's Cinderella illustrated by Gustav Dore - the fairy godmother does look a bit witchy but I don't believe that all fairies were supposed to be beautiful!
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/classillus/images/perrault/cind.html
It does seem as if a fairy godmother enters the story pretty early as it seems to be in Perrault's text here.
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Joan P:
In my version of Hansel and Gretel it was the stepmother who wanted to get rid of the children. When they returned home at the end of the adventure the Stepmother was conveniently dead. I just checked the story on Google and though there are various versions the one most accepted is the one with the Stepmother.
I promise to stick to the Cinderella story for the rest of the week.
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Some time ago I read an analysis of fairy tales which said that the evil stepmother was a substitute for the evil mother. We want to think of mothers as loving and protective, but know that this is by no means universal. Children will be angry with even a good and loving mother some of the time. The purpose of the evil stepmother figures was to give the reader/listener a place to dump negative emotions. I have no link as I was this a long time ago.
How many ways a fairy tale can be interpreted!
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Jude, I went back and read the Hansel and Gretel in Lang's Blue Book again - more closely this time. Only once is the word "mother" used.
" Not long afterward there was again great dearth in the land, and the children heard their mother address their father."
The rest of the time, she was referred to as "his wife" or "the woman."
I'm so glad you brought up H & G - for a number of reasons. Here's another example of cannabalism, which we saw in Cinderella. The frightening thought that the "witch" was preparing the cauldron to cook up the little boy and girl was something that is repeated in these tales...
- and the idea that a mother (or stepmother) would want to get rid of the children or abandon them another frightening, and repeated theme.
JoanR...thank you for Dore's illustrations! Yes, the fairy godmother looks "witchy." I wonder why? We need to go back to early pre-Perrault versions to learn more about this. I'm still wondering why the Grimms' did NOT include the fairy godmother. It seems the answer must be lie somewhere in the oral tales they based their stories on...
The concept of the good mother/bad mother in these tales is something that looms. We'll probably be seeing more of this as we go along. In the different versions of Cinderella we see the little girl alone in the world with no hope for the future at the mercy of the stepmother and her daughters - OR a little girl whose dying mother promised her that she would always protect her from afar. That state of mind makes a huge difference to a child who loses her mother and feels alone in the world.
Another thought about Hansel and Gretel and Cinderella - where's Dad? Why is he so helpless, unable to protect his children from their mother, stepmother - in both of these stories? Where was Dad in Red Riding Hood?
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Ursa - we were posting at the same time. Thank you for bringing up this possibility!
"the evil stepmother was a substitute for the evil mother. Children will be angry with even a good and loving mother some of the time. The purpose of the evil stepmother figures was to give the reader/listener a place to dump negative emotions."
This would explain so much. I see that Warner has gone into this subject at length in a chapter on The Absent Mother. Perhaps she wasn't "absent" at all?
Do you think that knowing the gender of the story teller might make a difference in the portrayal of the mother?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~ August Book Club Online
Source Book:
* From the Beast to the Blonde (http://www.librarything.com/work/432) by Marina Warner
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/beastbookcover.jpg) | Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and comprehensive study of the changing cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them. The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories. Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.")
Warner's book is huge. We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness. |
If you are unable to get your hands on this book, not to worry. The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those fortunate enough to locate Warner's book can share the commentary with the rest of us.
For Your Consideration - Week 3 ~August 16-22
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/sleeping%20beauty%20(200x183).jpg)
1. "Spin a yarn" ~ "weave a plot" - have you noticed the numerous references to spinning and weaving in fairy tales? What do they reveal about the sources and the tellers of the early tales?
2. What do you remember about the story of the Sleeping Beauty? What was its message? Do you remember it as "bawdy, comic, and erotic," as Warner tags it?
3. Can you imagine telling a child this version? - Giambatista Basile's Sleeping Beauty - (The Sun, the Moon and Talia)1657 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0410.html#basile) What was Basile's source? Who was his intended audience?
4. As usual, Charles Perrault cleaned up the story, but what remains of Basile's story in 1697? Charles Perrault's Sleeping Beauty in the Wood 1697 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html)
5. What did the Brothers Grimm accomplish with their version in 1812? Did they completely change the message of the tale? What is the message now? Brothers Grimm - Little Brier Rose - Sleeping Beauty (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm050.html)
6. How do you think men reacted to Perrault's tale of rape and adultery in the salons of France? Is the king portrayed as evil, or is this more the story of the ogress, the mother-in-law?
7. Do you notice the lack of male evil doers in fairy tales, or are they mostly stepmothers, witches...and mothers-in-law? If so, why do you think this is the case?
8. Would you be interested in examining Bluebeard and/or Beauty and the Beast to see how evil or weak men are portrayed?
Related Links:
Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/); Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/); A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8T-ZWRehw&feature=related); Little Red Riding Hood (Charles Perrault - 1697) (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/321.htm); Little Red Riding Hood (Brothers Grimm - 1812) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html#grimm); Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end ) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm026.html); Charles Perrault's Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html#perrault);the Brothers Grimm ~ Cinderella, 1812 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html#grimm); the Grimms' 1857 version of Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm021.html grimm); earlier version- Cinder Maid (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html); the 9th century Chinese Cinderella (http://www.myseveralworlds.com/2007/08/02/yeh-shen-the-chinese-cinderella/); Giambatista Basile's Sleeping Beauty - (The Sun, the Moon and Talia)1657 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0410.html#basile);
History of Sleeping Beauty - from Arthurian legend Perceforest 1567 (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/sleepingbeauty/history.html); Charles Perrault's Sleeping Beauty in the Wood 1697 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html);
Brothers Grimm - Little Brier Rose - Sleeping Beauty (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm050.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) with JoanR, Guest DL
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I discovered some interesting things about the Perrault version of Cinderella. The rest of the title as found in the Blue Fairy Book - "Cinderella and the Little Glass Slipper." I was really surprised to learn that Perrault's was not the first written telling of the story. Far from it. I guess because his Red Riding Hood is the first known written narrative of the story, I just assumed the same for Cinderella. But he was the first with a GLASS slipper. Some say he took the French word "vair," which means fur and substituted "verre" - which means glass. The two words are pronounced the same.
Glass slippers are so much more magical than fur slippers, don't you think? Andrew Lang liked Perrault's version - so did Disney!
Jude referred to the Chinese version, which featured tiny gold slippers. I was really surprised to learn f that the 9th century Chinese version was written down ~
"Everyone has heard the rags-to-riches story of Cinderella. The most popular version of this classic fairy tale was written by Charles Perrault in 1697. But, did you know the first written Cinderella story, called Yeh-Shen, was written in 850 A.D. in China? It’s over a thousand years older than the earliest known European version! And that’s not even the oldest version of Cinderella. The story of Cinderella dates back to ancient Greco-Egyptian times. It is thought that the story emerged sometime in the first century. There are thousands of variations of this children’s tale around the world."
I checked it out to see if it resembled the story of Cinderella as we know it. You be the judge...
Here's a film clip of the story (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXRKv__ep6w)...
If you have trouble with the sound - here's the written translation (http://www.myseveralworlds.com/2007/08/02/yeh-shen-the-chinese-cinderella/)...
No glass slippers, but you'll recognize the story from all those years ago... Oh, no fairy godmother either - or hazel nut tree. But there is magic at work to make things happen for the little girl. Lucky for her she was born with those tiny sexy feet!
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JoanP,
To my great disappointment, Grimm's Fair Tales were not where I had last seen them, smay be ten years ago. With the help of my grabber I managed to pull down a book with a similar spine. It was the wrong book and, from my clearrecollection, positioned on a higher shelf. I left it lying on the ping pong table for now and will eventually try again.
I had looked forward to opening the book and look at stories that had intrigued me, e.g. Rapunzel and Rumpelstilzchen. But this is not a deterrent at all because we have several versions and translations available right here.
Instead I have been concentrating on Warner's book, with careful attention to the references to Cinderella in the index (many more than for Little Red Riding Hood).
And I find myself in agreement with Warner's statement quoted in your question #4. From the earliest recorded times man sought to understand the often hostile environment and violent thunderstorms. Surely, no mortal man could cause such havoc. So the Greeks created their pantheon of gods.
In Greek mythology, in the Bible and in fairy tales we find characters with all too human traits: l greed, deceit, jealousy, bloodthirstiness, and vengefulness -- traits shared even now by humans all over the earth.
Warner goes into detail about the tellers of the tales, the legendary old crone, gossipers, and nannies, nurses, governesses. Mothers are often absent - enter the wicked stepmother. Families were large, mothers died in childbirth. In Tuscany, Warner tells us, that 80% of widowers in the 15th century remarried within a year after the death of the first wife; a large percentage of widowers in 17th and 18th century France took a second wife within a year's time, not seldom straining scarce family resources.
Competition bred antipathy and hatred, and Cinderella is one example. In Rossini's opera La Cenerentola the pattern is reversed : not the stepmother is the villain but the father. By scheming to marry own off his own two daughters to wealthy men he intends to get rich himself, all the while ignoring Cinderella in her penitential grass dress.
In this connection Warner says that fairy tales can be said to carry an underlying cautionary message. I would agree with that.
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Traudee, I will agree with Warner's statement on the underlying cautionary message of these tales - ALTHOUGH Perrault goes over the top with his cautionary message - in those morals attached to the end. Nothing subtle about his message -
With Cinderella he attached not only one, but two morals:
Moral: Beauty in a woman is a rare treasure that will always be admired. Graciousness, however, is priceless and of even greater value. This is what Cinderella's godmother gave to her when she taught her to behave like a queen. Young women, in the winning of a heart, graciousness is more important than a beautiful hairdo. It is a true gift of the fairies. Without it nothing is possible; with it, one can do anything.
Another moral: Without doubt it is a great advantage to have intelligence, courage, good breeding, and common sense. These, and similar talents come only from heaven, and it is good to have them. However, even these may fail to bring you success, without the blessing of a godfather or a godmother.
His morals seem to reflect the fact that he is writing down the tales for the court and for the salons of Paris.
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You mention the high death rate of mothers during childbirth as another reason for the number of stepmothers we see in these tales. Stepmothers, good mother/bad mothers, the absent father and the abandoned child, the lonely child - the stuff of these fairy tales.
"Warner goes into detail about the tellers of the tales, the legendary old crone, gossipers, and nannies, nurses, governesses." Traudee
I noted too that Warner makes it clear that male writers dominated the collecting and the production of fairy tales - but they passed along women's stories. Women were the storytellers, men collected them- for the most part.
This seems to be an important distinction Warner makes. She talks of women telling tales of women's wrongdoing. She says that fairy tales like Cinderella bear witness against women. This is what adds value to the tale, makes it authentic when women provide such commentary against women.
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I've been wondering about the fact that if women collected the tales and men wrote them down what messages, or meta messages, were they trying to convey to their readers ?
As an example I read that one of the brothers Grimm was trying to instill as much Christian morality in the tales as the story could bear.
Reading Warner's book, exploring some articles about her and reading some of her speeches, she comes across as a strong (or perhaps extreme) feminist. How this is reflected in her book needs more analysis than I am able to do. The book is well written and researched but does not tell us about little boys and their reaction to these tales. Also what is the message to older boys if they read these tales? Not many boys are dressing up as a Prince these days while little Princesses abound.
All of us in this discussion (except for Dean) are women. Perhaps Maurice Sendak who wrote and illustrated "Where the Wild Things Are" understood that little boys want to be strong and often identify with the aggressor. I have a friend whose boys , ages three and five, have been acting out the Monsters from that movie, for months now. I have a Grandson who
runs around screaming "I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down". Two others (ages 3 & 4) are Star Wars fans.
If you walk around Toys are Us enough you see what little boys are interested in. Its not the good (and rather pale) Princes of the Fairy Tales.So, are these really cautionary tales for girls ? I never thought about this before and I put out my thoughts as they came. If it is garbled I beg your forgiveness.
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Jude, yes, Warner is a feminist.
And I believe, the "precautionary tales" are meant for girls. She calls Disney's adaptations "saccharine" and does not like Perrault, either.
She refers to male cannibalism in connection with the Ogre and Blue Beard. She links Medea, Electra, Jean Cocteau, Milan Kundera and countless others effortlessly and in the same breath. The range of her knowledge and sources is astonishing - and sometimes slightly confusing.
And I wonder what message she is trying to impart to the reader.
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Jude, you just hit on something that has been on the back of my mind since we began talking about these fairy tales. Were they intended for little boys? I have four sons...and don't remember reading these stories to them. BUT I do remember reading them when I was a little girl - and my granddaughter just loves to hear them read and to read them herself.
There are many elements in the stories that date them back in time, that make them irrelevant to today's boys...as you pointed out, the princes hold no importance to boys. But little girls, the clothes, the ball, the prince who will love her and treat her like the princess that she knows she is, well, for little girls, these stories hold their interest during any period.
These are my own feelings - not Warner's.
Jude notes that Ms. Warner is a strong feminist. Do you think she'd agree with me?
I'm thinking of what she writes about the older women, the nurses, the nannies, the grannies - who told these tales to their young charges. We are told they were "cautionary tales." I see little girls gathered around the teller, listening to these tales as part of their education. But I don't see boys in the circle, Jude.
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Here are a few notes I took about the messages that women and men convey in fairy tales.. from Marina Warner's book -
"Fairy tales claim to speak in a woman's voice."
"Storytellers claim to know their material from an eye witness. The voice of an old woman lends reliability to the tale."
"Men and women tell some tales in characteristically different ways."
Hmmm - this sounds to me as if Warner is saying that the men who wrote the tales, had some latitude when putting the tales to paper, but that it was imperative for them to make them sound as if they came directly from the storyteller's mouth - and that the storyteller is a women.
She writes - "Men may be expected to find women flighty, rapacious, self-seeking, cruel and lustful, but if women say such things about themselves, the matter is settled."
She talks frequently of the misogyny in the tales women holding other women in contempt. We need to talk about this. Let's consider Cinderella, which is probably the oldest of all the tales.
Traudee, we were posting at the same time this tonight. As a feminist do you think Marina Warner is criticizing the way young girls were educated or trained in the past to behave in a way men thought they should be conditioned?
You asked a very good question, I think -
What message is Warner trying to impart to the reader? Do you think she is trying to understand women's attitude towards other women...just as we are?
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JoanP,
Well, in a way the tales did come directly from the mouths of the tellers in the oral tradition. One particular source for the brothers Grimm is mentioned in the boo (have to look it up).
The Grimms and Perrault listened to, collected and wrote down the stories. It makes sense, don't you think? How many girls went to school in rural areas of Europe in the 17 or 18 hundreds or learned to read and write ? They took care of home and hearth and children - who knows how many were abused or exploited and had reason for complaints?
Marina Warner could hardly be critical, in retrospect, of the way girls were brought up then. That's how things were - even in my own life until 1967, when I joined AAUW (despite my husband's vociferous obections), read Betty Friedan's eye-opening Feminine Mystique and experienced my own women's lib ;D .
When we came to Mass., there was no AAUW branch within easy reach, so I decided to co-found a new branch here in our fair town with the help of a native daughter then just returned after years in California. It was a struggle but helped me over being homesick for Virginia.
We fought hard for the Equal Rights Amendment - which passed in Massachusetts but failed on the nationallevel. Those were heady years. My daughter and her generation benefited from the advances that were made as a result of our activism and, sadly, take them for granted. Still, there is no pay equity, yet. Moreover there has been a backlash, as expressed, for example, in a book by Susan Faludi. But I digress...
Good night now.
More tomorrow.
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Continued.
One of the Grimms' sources was Dorothea Viehmann, a "market woman", daughter of an innkeeper and wife of a tailor (see pictures and text on pg. 189).
"Marktfrau" (plural Marktfrauen) was the name of the wives and/or daughters of farmers who sold farm products on market day.
There are more intriguing, erudite references in the chapterConclusion, where
Warner mentions Salman Rushdie, Satanic Verses, The Arabian Nights, the Ramayana, and the Koran. (See the first two full paragraphs on page 412).
In paragraph 3 she comtinues:
The story itself becomes the weapon of the weapoinless. The struggles of women, for example, are not resolved by combat, on the whole (one or two Amazon heroines excepted), as the contests of men may be in heroic epic; when they need to undo error or redeem wrongdoing, or defend the innocent, they (the women - my addition) raise their voices, if only in a conspiratorial whisper - hence the suspicion of women's talk that haunts the whole history of the old= wives' tale.
Women's arts within the fairy tales are very marked, and mot of them are verbal : riddling, casting spells, conjuring, understanding the tongue of animals, turning words into deeds according to the elementary laws of magic, sometimes to comic effect. Whereas saints, knights and fairy tale heroes assault the beast with weapons -- Perseus with the sea monster, Theseus and the Minotaur, St. George and the Dragon, Jack the Giantkiller, Tom Thumb and the ogre -- women in fairy tales align themselves with the Odyssean party of wily speechmakers, and with the Orphic mode of entrancement. In this they simply extend the practice of storytellers themselves. Emphasis mine.
... "weapon of the weaponless" ..." - That's powerful.
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"weapon of the weaponless"
Yes it is - very powerful, Traudee. This paragraph from which you are quoting is found deep into the book - and further explains some of the points Warner makes in the Introduction to the book. I've been thinking of your recent posts, yours and Jude's, and wondering how a feminist could possibly veiw "Cinderella" as anything but an attack on women. Reading the introduction and considering the fairy tale as a "weapon of the weaponless" sheds light on how Warner these stories to which she has dedicated so much of her time and research. Here are some of the points she made in the Introduction -
* Charles Perrault was a pioneer in disseminating fairy tales, but at the time he was writing them, there were 20 other writers, over half of them were women. (The others were lost, his survived.)
*Writers in 17th century France intended the fairy tales for an adult audience. Fairy tales were the television and the pornography of their day.
*Feminists in 1970 found Cinderella's story an oppressor's script for female domestication - the prince's castle a girl's ultimate goal.
*Warner: "I have become even more drawn to them as I have grown older. There is nothing in the least childlike abut fairy tales, and this, together with the suspect whiff of femininity hanging around them, attracted me to study them."
* Warner finds that evidence of conditions from past social and economic arrangements coexists in the tales with the narrator's innovation.
* The slant is towards the tribulation of women...especially those of marriageable age.
*Prejudices are against old women especially - they are the mouthpiece of homespun wisdom.
*These are "stories of staying power because the meanings they generate are magical shape-shifters dancing to the needs of the audience."
*Contempt for women - an opportunity for them to exercise their wit and commemorate their ideas.
I'm think I'm beginning to understand what Warner is saying about female tellers. They were better able to portray the conditions under which women had to endure than the men who heard the tales from them. Male writers, when they heard the stories from the female tellers missed the underlying message - and slanted the tales towards their immoral behaviour. They failed to understand what they saw as the hatred between women as part of the social and economic conditions - These issues were not evidenced in the men's retelling of the tales.
I'm really curious to hear what you think about Warner, feminism and the men who wrote the women's oral tales.
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By the way, I've been meaning to ask you if you'd noticed the appearance of Cinderella's two stepsisters in the different versions of the story. I was struck with this fact first when reading the Grimms' version of the story -
"The stepmother already had two daughters by her first husband. They were beautiful to look at, but in their hearts they were proud, arrogant, and evil. "
When did the stepsisters become beautiful? Or a better question - when did they become ugly? Looking back to Perrault's version, there is no mention of beauty - except for the beautiful clothes that they wore to the ball. What is your mental picture of these sisters? When did they go from beautiful to downright ugly and homely? Did Disney do that?
Does the fact that the sisters were beautiful, or at least not homely, change the story in any way for you?
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I delved deep into Warner's book last night, in particular, the Cinderella story. It reminded me of the instances in my life when I have found myself in a feminine hierarchy. These unpleasant experiences stay with me. I also remember our (male) boss asking "Why can't you women just get along?" I took him aside and told him that imo it was all about power (or lack of it). He looked bemused, missing my point. It was almost as if his appointment was of the Sultan in the harem. He had been deliberately chosen as boss (by the all male panel of gods) because of his complete lack of understanding of women. And of course, because he was a man. The three female bosses I have had were all fantastic. Lots of complexity in our relationships in fields regarding degrees of power.
In India (generalisation alert)when a young wife joins her husband's family, she is treated as the lowest of the low by the other women and given the most menial tasks. I suspect that this not only happens in Third World countries. Then when that young wife becomes the mother-in-law the cycle begins again. Is this also about power? Tradition? Getting even? What do you think?
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As I said, I turned to the last chapter of the book, titled "Conclusion".
There were more references but no "message". But I will read that last chapter (pp. 409-418) again, carefully.
On the other hand, I am not certain w'e'll find an answer by examining more fairy tales. But to explore some of the tellers in Part I of the book, e.g. Saint Margaret, Saint Anne and the Queen of Sheba, might have been interesting.
The divergent versions of specific fairy tales are easily explained, as the author has done, by saying that different listeners and audiences produced a different tradition.
What other message did Warner ntend to give ? That women have always been victims or downtrodden -- as, indeed, millions of women still are??
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The most cowed woman I ever met was born in Taiwan and was married to a talented physicist. She had been educated in this country. After I knew her for a while I found that she had cared for her mother-in-law for several years during the MIL's last illness. This woman would actually slink out of the room if there was any unpleasantness; she was like an abused dog. I am certain that she was abused by the MIL, probably even physically. I don't think this is unusual in Chinese cultures where the daughter-in-law is sometimes treated like a slave.
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Ursa, exactly! These are the realities.
Not all of us are aware, unless or until we come across a blatant example that gives us pause. Even when we are aware, there's little a best-intentioned ordinary person is able to do in the face of centuries-old traditions - as abominable and unfathomable as they seem to us.
There's be more to say about this, but off topic of course ,,,
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No, Traudee, that's very interesting, perhaps not that far off topic as you fear. Please continue...
Roshanarose, you've given us some food for thought. Is Cinderella's maltreatment about power? Tradition? Getting even?"
Perhaps all three? Power definitely. The stepmother has her two daughters to look after, and now finds herself with another to look after, another daughter in need of a dowry or she will never find a husband.
The real puzzle to me- where's DAD? He seems to have disappeared - once he married and found a new mother for his daughter. Maybe that's how stepmother is getting even with her new husband? Have you noticed that fathers are more often than not, missing in these stories? Has that been explained?
Tradition? - well, if the new arrival is low man on the totem pole, given the most menial tasks, then you're describing Cinderella's situation in this house. I agree, this is an extreme example. The women have turned her into a slave! Just as Ursamajor describes - in Chinese cultures where the daughter-in-law is sometimes is treated like a slave.
Looking over tale of Yeh-Chen - the 9th century Chinese Cinderella (http://www.myseveralworlds.com/2007/08/02/yeh-shen-the-chinese-cinderella/) again, I've just noticed this comment:
"The stepmother didn’t like Yeh-Shen for she was more beautiful and kinder than her own daughter so she treated her poorly. Yeh-Shen was given the worst job." (So way back then, beauty was an issue. But the other daughter is never described as homely.
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Traudee asks - what other message does Warner intend to convey as women have always been downtrodden.
Jude asked earlier - "if women collected the tales and men wrote them down what messages, or meta messages, were they trying to convey to their readers ?"
My own question is about the message do these story tellers intend to give to their audience? So far we have looked closely at two of the oldest tales - and in different time periods, different centuries. Do the messages change with time? What message do you think a young girl takes from the Cinderella story in our time?
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I still don't have it straight in my mind about the sources of the tales...and the intended audience. We hear about the women, spinning the tales, weaving the yarn as they worked, but to whom? To one another? Certainly some of these tales were not for children's ears, or were they?
And talk about the message of the tale changing with time, we hadn't seen anything like we see in The Sleeping Beauty transformation! What do you remember about this tale - and what was the message?
Do you remember anything bawdy - or erotic about the story?
This version of Sleeping Beauty was written down in Italy - not too long before Charles Perrault wrote down what he heard. According to Warner, Basile was Perrault's source...
Take a deep breath - I'm not sure you are ready for this - I know I wasn't!
Giambatista Basile's Sleeping Beauty - (The Sun, the Moon and Talia)1657 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0410.html#basile)
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Somehow I do not believe the fairy tellers in medieval Europe had a specific "message" to impart. Nor did they intend to collect them (how? where?)
Life in rural areas of medieval Europe was often grim. Incessant wars brought devastation and decimated the population, especially the 30th Years' War from 1618 to 1648, when marauding troops criss-crossed central and eastern Europe from Sweden to the Alps.
Those storytellers focused, I believe, on their own chores, their hard lives, their place at the bottom of the pyramid, thatwas the feudal system in Europe, when kings, dukes and barons and such like were the lords.
Girls had to take up their end of the bargain from an early age; as women they were often un- or underappreciated. When there wasn't a major war going on, there were local skirmishes and, to create more misery, outbreaks e of the plague and cholera in different parts of the continent.
It is easy to imagine how back in those days girls might have gathered in secret and talked by candlelight about the latest troubles that had befallen them or about the master; and how word of mouth became gossip and engendered rumors.
At one point, as we saw, Warner talks of the fair tales as "cautionary tales" - and they might well have been that, e.g. beware of the big bad wolf in the forest. (And the woods were deep, dark, mysterious and scary --- before acid rain in the 20th century destroyed large parts of them). I believe the tales had their root in shared experiences based on the same social and ecibomic background.
What do girls make of these tales today? Do they regard them as warnings? Do they still read them, even?
From what I see in my granddaughter, who's 11, I think not. Youth today take their idols from show business "celebrities", sometimes even emulating their most deplorable excesses.
But my question is if there is a conclusion to be drawn by the reader, if Warner had a defined purpose for writing this huge, enriching, entertaining book, a purpose that eludes us.
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Joan P:
I was certainly not ready for these versions of the Fairy Tale. I am shocked that the stories were so openly sexual and cannabilistic. These are not the white washed versions I read as a child and far away from the Disney movies.These are the XXX rated versions.Guess they were the soap operas of their day. Wow!
Need time to think about this.
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Jude, my sentiments exactly. Never before have I given a thought to the erotic angle in f fairy tales.
Thank you, JoanP, for linking Giambattista Basile's version of Sleeping Beauty = The Sun, Moon and Talia. I never heard it or of rivalry between a queen and a second unacknowledged wife. In this connection it is funny how the Prince's "encounter" with the comatose Talia was genteelly semi-disguised.
This is hardly the stuff one would tell children. Which makes me think that adult tellers possibly concocted spicier variations for their own amusement. Suum cuique. To each his own.
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One has to remember that there was no TV and no books. These tales were all the entertainment people had. When these were told around the fire or outside in the twilight I'm sure the bawdy versions were appreciated by adults. It was only in Victorian times that fairy tales came to be thought as children's fare.
I have been thinking about what these tales have to say to modern children, and I think very little. We must recognize how much a child's world has changed since we were young. If we saw an occasional movie we were lucky. Some of the cautionary tales still have meaning; LRRH still warns of the danger of taking up with strangers and wolves abound on the internet. I can't see that Sleeping Beauty or Beauty and the Beast have much to say to modern girls.
We have not discussed any of the boys' tales, like the various adventures of Jack and the stories of the three brothers who go to seek their fortunes. Neither have we discussed any of the stories in which the hero is disguised as a frog, bear or other creature. Maybe these haven't been written about because they don't lend themselves to Freudian interpretation so readily as the girls' stories. I wonder if these stories still interest boys?
Then there are the Tales of King Arthur. These seem to be perennially of interest to adults. I can think of at least five interpretations of the main story that have been published in the last few years, including a truly modern one in which after Guinevere is accused of dallying with Launcelot Arthur says to her "How awful for you, Gwen!"
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"It was only in Victorian times that fairy tales came to be thought as children's fare." Ursa
A good point and it leads to another question - how do today's children look at fairy tales - at Sleeping Beauty, for example? Another question -has your appreciation for these old tales changed at all since we began this discussion? Or has your pleasure been crushed? (Sincerely hope not!)
Traudee asks about Marina Warner's purpose in writing this huge work on fairy tales and their tellers? Other than to entertain her readers, that is. I've been thinking about the reasons we decided (voted) to talk about fairy tales this summer. Some of the reasons expressed during the voting period - light, fun summer reading. We remembered enjoying fairy tales, daydreaming, the possibilities they suggested.
(I'm somewhat fearful that reading of the dark underpinnings of the tales (think of Sleeping Beauty now) will spoil the feel-good feelings about them that we had as children. Can we ever think about them as innocent nursery tales again after this?)
Traudee, I went back again last night and reread Warner's Introduction closely to learn of her intended purpose in writing this book.
She begins by saying how she enjoyed fairy tales as a child - she regarded them as nourishment. They seemed to offer the possibility of change - going beyond established boundaries.As she grew older, she continued to be attracted to the capacity for daydreaming and wonder.
Does this say something to you about the motivations of early storytellers, women, working together at their monotonous tasks, spinning, weaving...spilling the facts of their woeful existence - taking them beyond the boundaries, into a better life - with a happy ending? One way to deal with the present.
Warner writes that she began investigating the meaning, but "soon found it was essential to look at the context in which they were told, at who was telling them, to whom and why."
She writes that the stories have staying power because the meanings they generate are themselves "magical shape-shifters, dancing to the needs of their audience."
Do you agree with her? Right now I'm weighing the early tales on which Sleeping Beauty was based with the modern version of Sleeping Beauty and the chaste kiss of the handsome prince that brings Beauty to life- struggling to look at it (the modern story) through the eyes of my granddaughter. Will have to talk to her about it this weekend - and ask her what she thinks of the story. After having read the early version, I have to admit the cleaned up version seems very bland -
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Ursa - in her introduction, Warner also explains that she decided to start with Charles Perrault because his tales published in 1687 were some of the best known and loved in the world. She goes on to say that this choice meant she would be focussing on fairy tales with family dramas at heart, rather than the jests and riddles, animal fables and proverbial tales often described under the catch-all name of fairy tale."
Since we are only at the half way mark in this discussion, perhaps you would like to suggest some of the tales of interest to boys? We should get into the matter of "blondness" - but I have no problem leaving the final week to you all - and the tales you would like to investigate together while we are gathered here.
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Back to Perrault - and his version of Sleeping Beauty. I was quite surprised to find that the elements from Basile's version remained in Perrault's. Not only the cannibalism, murder (attempted), adultery, rape - but Perrault seems to treat the whole affair with humor. I haven't had a chance to check to see whose version Andrew Lang selected for his fairy book - was it the blue one? (I'll bet you that it was Grimms'. :D)
Perrault intended his stories to amuse the adults at court, in the salons, but his tales, according to Warner, are the most loved by children the world over. Is this another example of how children only see what they are ready to see?
Jude, now that you have had time to sleep on Basile's version, I'm curious to hear what you thought of the little moral Basile tacked on the end of his tale:
Those whom fortune favors
Find good luck even in their sleep.
What does he mean to say? It will be interesting to compare Perrault's moral at the end of his version to Basile's:
Charles Perrault's Sleeping Beauty in the Wood 1697 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html)
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Here are some of my thoughts:
THOSE WHO FORTUNE FAVORS
FIND LUCK EVEN IN THEIR SLEEP.
This is to give hope to those whose lives are hopeless. Perhaps those who have been raped will come to believe that their Prince will come and help support them in their mean poverty and misery. Instead of thinking miserable thoughts they can dream of good things to come and sleep more easily.
In all these horrible versions it seems that the "good" people win out over the evil ones even though they must go through many years of suffering. In all the stories there are characters whose goodness help saved the endangered damsel. Sometimes it is a fairy Godmother or a cook or a loyal servant who dare to see the evil and not be overwhelmed by it. They do something, however small, to help the good person be saved from the evil one, be she Queen or Stepmother.
Another point seems strange. We have as yet, not read of evil men per se. Only evil wolves and animals. Are there fairy tales in which men are the perpetrators of the evil from the beginning of the story? Only Jack and the Beanstalk come to mind.
Lots to ponder.
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Charles Perrault's Sleeping Beauty in the Wood 1697 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html) is more like the one I remember as a child...the christening, the seven invited fairy godmothers, bearing gifts for the princess. Then the appearance of the aged fairy that no one thought to invite and her curse that Beauty would prick her finger while spinning - which caused her to sleep for 100 years.
No rape, no adultery - the prince and princess were married by a chaplain the very night he found her sleeping in the palace.
The Princess's Mother-in-law is still there - an Ogress who wants to eat her grandchildren.
Their names, similar to Basile's version (Sun and Moon) - are "Dawn" and "Day"
Do you know that Disney named Sleeping Beauty "Aurora"?
It turned out that the Mother-in-law also planned to eat Beauty...who is now the queen. Perrault has injected
humor into several places in the tale. I liked this one:
"The young queen was twenty years old, without counting the hundred years she had been asleep. Her skin, though white and beautiful, had become a little tough"
I don't suppose this version was too gruesome to read to children - after all, the Ogress did not actually eat the children or their mother. In Red Riding Hood, that old wolf actually swallowed Red Riding Hood and her granny!
Jude is right, "we have not read of evil men per se. Only evil wolves and animals." Of course the king in Basile's version of Sleeping Beauty comes close, do you agree? Is it because the written tales that we have in translation - come from Perrault - who collected tales from female narrators, who spoke of the tribulations of women? But the males who cause their misery - are mostly absent.
Shall we look in Andrew Lang's collection for tales of evil men? Hans Christian Anderson?
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THOSE WHO FORTUNE FAVORS
FIND LUCK EVEN IN THEIR SLEEP.
Jude sees consolation for those who have lost in this moral Basile has attached to the end of his story. I suppose that one can always hope that LUCK will get them through hard time. To me, it seems "chancey." That poor girl, lying there asleep and vulnerable to the King's advances - and then left without a thought. She is not visited by Lady Luck as she slept. But wait, there's more! She's pregnant - two beautiful babies...and the king marries her after all.
Is this supposed to be amusing to the reader? I guess it is, it's so over the top!
What do you think of Perrault's moral? He seems to have ignored Basile's altogether...
Many a girl has waited long
For a husband brave or strong;
But I'm sure I never met
Any sort of woman yet
Who could wait a hundred years,
Free from fretting, free from fears.
Now, our story seems to show
That a century or so,
Late or early, matters not;
True love comes by fairy-lot.
Some old folk will even say
It grows better by delay.
Yet this good advice, I fear,
Helps us neither there nor here.
Though philosophers may prate
How much wiser 'tis to wait,
Maids will be a-sighing still --
Young blood must when young blood will!
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In my search for evil male figures I read chapters 15 & 16 of Warner''s book. They deal with the stories of Bluebeard which I had heard of but never really read before. The book states that ti was written by Perrault and based on actual serial killer whose victims were his many wives. There is not much magic in this tale. It's almost pure slasher story except for the key which won't give up its blood.
I find it hard to put this story in with fairy tales for children. It too can be seen as a cautionary tale for women and their mothers about being careful of who you marry.
The next chapter deals with Beauty and the Beast. However in this story it is obvious that one should not judge the book by its cover but by what it contains within.Warner goes on about this theme and she says(page318) :"The Beast,formerly
the stigmatizing envelope of the fallen male, has become a badge of the salvation he offers. ..........she tends to personify female erotic pleasure in matching and mastering a man who is dark and hairy, rough and wild....."
Disney made a fortune on this story but livened it up with talking teapots, singing brooms etc. Obviously he knew what story the folks wanted to see.
However when I think of fairy tales I don't think of either Bluebeard or Beauty and the Beast. What do others think of these stories?
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Ursamajor mentioned the absence of tales about little boys and now you are hunting down tales with evil men in place of evil stepmothers and witches, Jude. Isn't it odd that we have to hunt so hard. Do you think that it's because the genre, fairy tales, originated by women for women? For the most part? I'm trying to envision the men who listened to the tales in the salons during Perrault's time. Were they taken with the story of Sleeping Beauty? How do you think they reacted to this tale? I don't know, they seem to me to be tales that would appeal to women, not necessarily men.
What about the tales of King Arthur that Ursa mentioned - would they fit the description of fairy tales? Consider Perceforest -"the earliest known version of the Sleeping Beauty theme "- I'd say that Troilus fits the description of an evil male as he rapes the sleeping Zellandine...
An episode contained in Perceforest, the “Histoire de Troïlus et de Zellandine,” (Book III, chapter lii) is the earliest known version of the Sleeping Beauty theme, though here Troilus rapes Zellandine in her deep coma, and she delivers the child without waking. According to the Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales, "it was read in France, and in northern Germany was performed as a pre-Lenten Shrove Tuesday drama in the mid-1400s." Charles IX of France was especially fond of this romance: four volumes of Perceforest were added to the Royal library at Blois sometime between 1518 and 1544, and were shelved with the Arthurian romances Perceforest 1528 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceforest)
Jude, I don't think I've ever read Bluebeard, though I know the story...surely Bluebeard as a serial killer, fits the description of the evil male. So does the Beast as the Fallen Male - but he's reformed. Women would go for that.
Would you like to look at these two tales more closely to see if they fit a definition of a "Fairy Tale"? We need input from the others. I know that children are taken with the story of Beauty and the Beast - but can't see Disney touching Bluebeard with a ten foot pole!
But is that part of the definition of a fairy tale? A story suitable for children? We're back again to that question of what is a fairy tale? Are we seeing that fairy tales are magical tales of the fantastic - that capture the imagination, take the reader or the listener beyond the boundaries of what is real - suggesting other possibllities? Do we all need fairy tales, young or old?
Having said that, the next question seems to be - - do we all need Bluebeard? ;) I've never read it - have you? If I did, I don't remember now.
Let's at least read it so we know what's there.
Perrault's Barbe Bleu (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault03.html)
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I don't remember if I read Bluebeard as a child. I must have, as part of one of the many collections of fairy tales I read.
Since the young wife is saved and avenged, it does seem to me that this is a fairy tale with an appropriate fairy tale ending. She uses her new wealth to help her family and find a new, worthy husband.
I found an interesting article about some possible meanings in Bluebeard. The article is about a 2010 French film based on the fairy tale. The actress who plays the young wife looks quite young. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/movies/28bluebeard.html
I was wondering what significance the "blue beard" might have. In "The Annotated Classic Fairy Tales" by Maria Tatar, she says "The blue in his beard tips the reader off to his exotic, otherworldly nature." In a footnote to "Bluebeard" she says: "Beards were not fashionable in Perrault's time, and Bluebeard's monstrous growth of a shadowy color marked him as an outsider and libertine. The exotic beard inspired a number of interpretations that cast Bluebeard in the role of oriental tyrant. Edmund Dulac's illustrations (http://www.artpassions.net/cgi-bin/dulac_image.pl?../galleries/dulac/bluebeard1.jpg) set the take in the Orient, with Bluebeard sporting a turban while his wife lounges with other women in what appears to be a harem. Many authors who took up the story set the tale in the East and gave the wife the name Fatima."
FYI. There is a sample chapter of Maria Tatar's 2004 book, "Secrets beyond the Door: The Story of Bluebeard and His Wives," at http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s7894.html
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In trying to think of fairy tales casting men as the villains, my first choice was "Donkeyskin' in which a dying queen makes the king promise to wed someone as beautiful as herself. He promses and, upon the death of the queen, seeks the hand in marriage of his beautiful daughter. She escapes of course. Marina Warner has quite a lot to say about this tale - a whole chapter is devoted to it and its spin-offs. Basile collected this tale, calling his story "L'Orsa" which means "she-bear" - the heroine escapes her father's attentions by assuming the form of a bear. "Donkeyskin" was Perrault's version.
There is a similar tale, "Catskin" in which the heroine also flees from marriage with an incestuous father.
Then there is "The Robber Bridegroom" which is pretty gruesome involving cannibalism. No incest here - merely a murderous and cannibalistic bridegroom!
"Allerleirauh" is the Grimms' version of Catskin - she flees her father into a forest where she makes her home in a hollow tree. The king's huntsmen's dogs find her and she is taken to slave in the castle kitchen and as in Cinderella, all ends happily in the end.,
So, although not as numerous as the wicked witches and stepmothers, there are indeed some villainous men to be found in fairy tales!
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Marcie :
Thank you for that chapter of Tatar's book on Bluebeard. I read it through and then went to the PDF version. Some really gruesome illustrations from the story were included in that version. Not for children or most adults either.
I liked the authors take on the story."A tale that focuses on marriage and the friction when one party has something to hide and the other wants to know too much." She goes into a song and dance about the meaning of women's curiosity and the male attitude to this personality trait.
Two other remarks of Tatars that I found interesting were : "It was a set up. By giving her the magic key he invited her to find the seven dead bodies."
The other remark was this:"The Blue Beard is a symbol of the exotic outsider, a libertine and a ruffian."
All in all , in my opinion, this is not a Fairy Tale but an adult tale with much power and meaning. Very sexual in all its allusions.
Perhaps its meta meaning is the most powerful element. Now different people may find different messages underlying it all but the fact that it is open to so many different interpretations makes it a powerful and lasting piece of literature.
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I agree that Bluebeard is not a fairytale for children. But it is surely one of the stories that were told around the fireplace. I think in some ways we might think of fairytales as the predecessor of TV. What sells on TV? Right. Sex and violence. Bluebeard and some of the other tales we have looked at surely qualify on these points.
It is hard for us to imagine a world with no electricity and no entertainment other than what the folks in the family/ community could come up with. A good storyteller was a valuable member of the community. Bluebeard surely qualifies as entertaining drama. I don't remember where I encountered it but I remember the delightful frisson evoked by "Sister Anne, Sister Anne! Is anybody coming?" repeated over and over. You knew the monster was coming......
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"But it is surely one of the stories that were told around the fireplace." (Ursa) One of those tales told around the fireplace - yes, but after the children had gone to bed. Although today's children might see and hear as much violence on the TV and some of those video games!
I can also imagine the women at work, at the spinning wheels, or doing other monotonous work together, spinning these tales, making them more gory and bloody, with each telling, just to make the time go by. "Each telling of the story seems to recharge its power, making it crackle and hiss with renewed narrative energy" Isn't that what the fairy tales were all about - lifting one out of the monotony of everyday into a different world of possibilities? Magic! Although I'm not sure what exactly what the magic was here - perhaps that key? Or the happy ending?
Ursa, I can see the tale dramatized as you describe it, though I've never really seen a Bluebeard production. Lots of opportunity for sex and violence! Do these productions always end happily? Do the brothers arrive just in time to save the damsel?
Jude, thanks for bringing up Tatar's view of the story - it was a "set up" wasn't it? But a set up that makes no real sense. What else could the Blue bearded one have expected of his beautiful, but very young wife? He knew she'd fail the test. But he'd waited so long for a wife to share his riches - and this one was all he could hope for.
Can't you see the delight of the women as they sat at their spinning, telling this story?
I see the story as another example of the poor sad lot women faced in the past at the hands of their domineering husbands - and yet somehow they managed to come up with a happy ending in which the woman triumphed. Isn't this a happily-ever-after fairy tale after all?
Out of curiosity, I thought I'd look at the Brothers Grimm - they seem to have written their versions of the old tales with children in mind, don't you think?
Brothers Grimm - Bluebeard - illustrated, for children (http://www.yankeeweb.com/library/storytime/grimmbros/grimmbros_6.html)
Well, what did you think? Lovely illustrations - and a happy ending too!
Bluebeard's poor wives were given a Christian burial, the castle was completely renovated and the young widow, some time later, married a good and honest young man, who helped her to forget the terrible adventure. And that young lady completely lost all her sense of curiosity...
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Marcie, what a valuable find! thank you so much for bringing the Tatar reference to our attention! Makes me wish that we had used IT as our source book! I hope everyone finds a few minutes to read through it...
I'm running late right now, but will include a link to it in the heading when I get back in...we need to hear more from Tatar!
JoanR, you have an eye for finding evil men! Will look into them when I get back this afternoon too...
"such a fundamentally black story. In all the other fairy tales the ogre is an ogre; he’s a monster. ‘Bluebeard’ is so very dark because in the end the ogre isn’t an ogre. He’s a man.”
(From the New York times movie review Marcie posted -)
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It's interesting that even in the "happy" retelling of the Bluebeard story by the brothers Grimm, they end the story with the sentence "And that young lady completely lost all her sense of curiosity... " I'm wondering if the word "curiosity" had a different connotation in earlier times.
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You are all discussing Bluebeard. One story I never encountered when I was young or reading to my children. It never came up, until the one, the ONLY, vacation I got my husband to go on. He hated flying, wouldn't fly, but I got him on a week's trip to St. Thomas in the Virgin Islands where we rented an apartment, lovely, and with that came a car. But you had to drive on the opposide of the road, like in Europe. Well, that did not go over well with my husband. He tried one time to get to BLUEBEARD'S CASTLE which was on a hilltop and we got lost and was he perturbed. We finally picked up a native fellow who stayed with us until we arrived at the restaurant, but, of course, I thought the whole experience funny. I offered to drive which brought more (expletives) from my dear husband!!!!
http://www.bluebeards-castle.com/
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~ August Book Club Online
Source Book:
* From the Beast to the Blonde (http://www.librarything.com/work/432) by Marina Warner
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/beastbookcover.jpg) | Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and comprehensive study of the changing cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them. The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories. Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.")
Warner's book is huge. We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness. |
If you are unable to get your hands on this book, not to worry. The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those fortunate enough to locate Warner's book can share the commentary with the rest of us.
For Your Consideration - Week 4 ~ August 23-31
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/sleeping%20beauty%20(200x183).jpg)
1. What do you think? Can we call Hans Christian Andersen's "Little Mermaid" a fairy tale since it is a re-telling of a long line of mermaid tales?"
2. Have you ever read The Little Mermaid (http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html)?
Why do you think Andrew Lang included previous tales Andersen wrote about mermaids in his colour books, but not this one?
3. What did you think of the Grimms' treatment of The Little Mermaid (http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html) - after reading Andersen's stories Lang included in his pink and brown Colour Fairy Books? - Hans the Mermaid's Son (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/410.htm) AND
TheMermaid and the Boy (http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/274.htm)
4. What do you think was the message behind the story? The moral? Was this a fairy tale? Did it have a happy ending?
5. Do you want to nominate a favorite fairy tale or one that you haven't read yet for discussion here in the coming days while we are still together?
6. Have you read The Twelve Months (http://russian-crafts.com/tales/12months.html) or do you remember Snow White and Rose Red (http://www.authorama.com/grimms-fairy-tales-63.html)? What determines the difference between these two sets of sisters?
Related Links:
Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/); Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/); A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8T-ZWRehw&feature=related); Little Red Riding Hood (Charles Perrault - 1697) (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/321.htm); Little Red Riding Hood (Brothers Grimm - 1812) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html#grimm); Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end ) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm026.html); Charles Perrault's Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html#perrault);the Brothers Grimm ~ Cinderella, 1812 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html#grimm); the Grimms' 1857 version of Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm021.html grimm); earlier version- Cinder Maid (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html); the 9th century Chinese Cinderella (http://www.myseveralworlds.com/2007/08/02/yeh-shen-the-chinese-cinderella/); Giambatista Basile's Sleeping Beauty - (The Sun, the Moon and Talia)1657 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0410.html#basile);
History of Sleeping Beauty - from Arthurian legend Perceforest 1567 (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/sleepingbeauty/history.html); Charles Perrault's Sleeping Beauty in the Wood 1697 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html);
Brothers Grimm - Little Brier Rose - Sleeping Beauty (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm050.html); The Little Mermaid, Grimm, Andersen (http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html);Hans the Mermaid's Son (Lang's Pink Fairy book - Andersen (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/410.htm) -
TheMermaid and the Boy (Lang's Brown Fairy book- Andersen (http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/274.htm); The Twelve Months (http://russian-crafts.com/tales/12months.html); Snow White and Rose Red (http://www.authorama.com/grimms-fairy-tales-63.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) with JoanR, Guest DL
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Maybe another word for "curious" is "nosey" - what do you think, Marcie? Bluebeard is looking for a wife who will keep out of his business and tend to her own affairs. Is that the message of the tale?
Ella - I read the article on Bluebeards's castle - somehow I didn't put the two together - Bluebeard the pirate and Bluebeard the fine, rich gentleman Perrault describes! Of course - Bluebeard! And YOU and Dick actually went to his castle - (did you look for the rooms where he kept the ...wait! Was this a true story?
Here'a little clip of the movie - said to be written from t feminist point of view - If you look closely, you can see the castle - Ella, is it the same one that you visited?
Bluebeard, the story of a poor girl who wanted more (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLCWRyhdCQw&feature=player_embedded)
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Some of you have been unhappy and disillusioned to know of the history of some of the most beloved tales. I know that now. Starting Sunday, let's try to concentrate on tales that seem to be written for children - with no underlying hidden messages for adults. Where's Dean69 - we might start with Wizard of Oz? Dean refers to it as the first American fairy tale.
Perhaps if we had stayed with Grimm we would have had a more pleasant experience on memory lane. (Personally I found the older versions fascinating, but certainly didn't want to upset the rest of you.)
If you read Grimms's version of the Sleeping Beauty - now that you know what Perrault and Basile wrote, what is your reaction to the story? Is this the one that you grew up loving?
Brothers Grimm - Little Brier Rose - Sleeping Beauty (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm050.html)
What an ending! No rape, no adultery - just plain romance! Not even a moral at the end of this story!
"There she lay and was so beautiful that he could not take his eyes off her. He bent over and gave her a kiss. When he touched her with the kiss Little Brier-Rose opened her eyes, awoke, and looked at him kindly.
They went downstairs together, and the king awoke, and the queen, and all the royal attendants, and they looked at one another in amazement. The horses in the courtyard stood up and shook themselves. The hunting dogs jumped and wagged their tails. The pigeons on the roof pulled their little heads out from beneath their wings, looked around, and flew into the field. The flies on the walls crept about again. The fire in the kitchen rose up, broke into flames, and cooked the food. The roast began to sizzle once again. The cook boxed the boy's ears, causing him to cry, and the maid finished plucking the chicken.
And then the prince's marriage to Little Brier-Rose was celebrated with great splendor, and they lived happily until they died. "
JoanR - will get to Donkeykins and other evil men stories as soon as I can. Thank you for searching them out for us...
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Of, no! I don't need to pursue the evil men! I only brought them up because there was a question about them! It has always been a case of more, many more , evil stepmothers, etc. than men. Probably due to a patriarchal society - do you think?
Some of the worst are found in Grimm - i.e. The Robber Bridegroom.
By the way, was the Beast in" Beauty and the Beast" falling into the evil category? Not so, he was kind, gentle and generous with his good heart hidden in a bestial shape. I suppose the lesson was that we shouldn't judge by appearances - the beggar may be a prince!!
Most (all?) of the tales do have a message, I think.
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Ella, What a funny association to have with Bluebeard! Thanks for sharing that humorous memory. I'm sure it wasn't quite as funny at the time ;)
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Been reading some of the posts, but think I will just start here and not worry about the previous stuff.
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I have always associated Bluebeard with Henry VIII. The pirate and oriental potentate allusions surprised me. I suppose the story predates Henry by at least a hundred years, but his historical behavior was so dreadful this just seemed to fit. I also think this was a cautionary tale - moral being "don't meddle in your husband's business". The happy ending always seemed contrived to me. Old Henry died in his bed of natural causes and his eighth queen was much relieved!
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JOANP, I cannot remember the castle at all at the top of the hill in St. Thomas, isn't that funny. Perhaps because the way there was such an adventure. We ate dinner up there somewhere and I think that might be the restaurant where I ordered some kind of fish and it arrived on my plate whole - head, tail, whole! What to do with the thing? Did I hide it in my purse, I can't remember what we decided to do with that either!
I just haven't revisited fairy tales for so many years, but I do remember my favorites and you are right in one of your posts when you said that the evil ones (the ones I remember) were female. Why were they? Hansel and Gretel, one of my favorites. Little Red Riding Hood. Cinderella. Goes on and on.
But they were written by men? Were they?
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Ursa, do you remember when we started out in this discussion we tried to come up with a definition of a fairy tale ? Did we? Or did we decide it was too difficult to pin it down. Kidsal found this article -
What is a fairy tale anyway? (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/introduction/ftdefinition.html) - the author says she can't define it but knows it when she sees it.
JoanR - found the this definition in the Oxford Companion that cleared it up for her -
“While fairy tales and fantasy are doublessly related.. Their origins are quite different. Fairy tales have their roots in archaic society and archaic thought, thus immediately succeeding myths." Fantasy literature is a more recent genre and owes its origins mostly to romanticism. ... " it’s a conscious creation where authors choose the forms which suit them best. "
We were not able to answer the question whether a fairy tale has to have a happy ending or not. I think we concluded that many (most?) do - but that it ain't necessarily so.
Did Bluebeard need a happy ending? I think so. Even though it seemed contrived as you say, the young wife needed to go on with her life with a more suitable mate. I suppose it needed that moral too - no snooping! ;) (Do you snoop? I do. Would you have been able to stay away from that one locked room when you had the key in your hand - and he was away? I mean, she didn't suspect anything really horrid. Yes, I would have taken a peek - a quick peek!
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gosh Ella, you're memory is as bad as mine! You don't remember the castle, but you remember that fish after all these years. I'll bet you remember the fish eyes too!
Here's the think about the fairy tales we have read so far - There was a Scot back in the mid 1800's - Andrew Lang - who collected and published all of these color fairy books full of just about all of the known fairy tales of the time.
Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/)
Some of us have collected one or two of these colour fairy books - they must be worth something, don't you think? I think it was Goldenson who found the Blue Fairy Book years ago. What makes the blue fairy book so special is that it includes the oldest and the most beloved tales - the ones we all know - such as Cinderella, Red Riding Hood, Sleeping Beauty... And look they are all digitalized - you can read them all online!
Blue Fairy Book (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/)...
An interesting point about these old, old tales is that they were NOT written by men. They were tales told by women to one another and then to children over the centuries until men collected them and wrote them down. Men like Perrault and the Brothers Grimm. IN MY OPINION - the women were telling the tales to console one another about their treatment from men, their position in society. Because of their position we find them behaving cruelly to one another in many of the stories - and the men seemed to delight in this situation as they wrote down the stories. AS Jude said, sex and violence sells - now and back then too.
As we read earlier and earlier versions of the stories, they seemed to become more and more raw - Finally we reached "Sleeping Beauty."
Steph, you have to know this, because you don't plan to read the back stuff - that hearing the original versions of Sleeping Beauty turned off some of our participants. I don't blame them - I don't think Sleeping Beauty will ever be the same again. We could have avoided all that angst had we just read the Brothers Grimms' version. Here they decided to end the story with the prince waking Beauty from her 100 year nap with a chaste kiss...compared to the early versions in which she was raped in her sleep, impregnated and gave birth to twins - all while asleep.
I think I know you - you would have been one of those who wanted to go back and see how the stories had developed over time. Still, it leaves the Brothers Grimm story ...lacking once you know the real story.
JoanR, I still haven't read Donkeykins - but do intend to read it in the coming week...
Speaking of the coming week...well wait, I'll go get the heading - it's almost Sunday morning!
Will be right back!
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We have delved into Lang's Blue Fairy Book just about as deep as we can go - how low can you go! Shall we leave Perrault and Grimm - and Basile for a while? (Of course if you have found more information about any of the stories, please feel free to bring them here.) But Ella's comment about the authorship leads to an obvious question - what of Hans Christian Andersen?
When examining Perrault and Brothers Grimm, we learned that these men collected the tales told to them by women. Surely these two men were not the only ones who collected fairy tales? And do we have the social commentary, the meta messages running beneath the plot of ALL fairy tales?
So, here we are again, back to that nagging question - what is a fairy tale anyway? JoanR asks - "Can we call Andersen's "Little Mermaid" a fairy tale since it is a re-telling of a long line of mermaid tales?" (Joan says she would.)
Ivmfox - does the "The Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales contain Andersen's Little Mermaid?
Jude searched the Colour Fairy books and did not find Andersen's Little Mermaid.
But look, here are other Mermaid tales by HC Anderson in the fairy books:
"Hans the Mermaid's Son" - Pink Fairy Book - http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/410.htm
"Mermaid and the Boy" - Brown Fairy Book - http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/274.htm (http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/274.htm)
And finally, not in Lang's books, but in the Brothers Grimm - their telling of ~
The Little Mermaid (http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html)
Have you ever read it? Let's do, let's discuss it and see if we can discern the underlying message - one that sheds light on the times in which it was written. Perhaps the Mermaid tales in Lang's Colour Fairy Books listend above will help.
Then let's spend the rest of our time together examining your favorites - if you want to submit a title for this, we'll spend one day on each of them - first come, first discussed - which would YOU like to talk about here?
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Whew, I am glad that I was not here earlier. I liked the Sleeping Beauty, but would definitely not have liked that type of story. I am way behind all of you because I believe that most fairy tales were told and retold as oral tradition. Think of Indian tribes. They keep their history that way.. So do Eskimo tribes. Has to be with no written tradition. I love Myths and stories of the various gods and goddesses and I would guess always consider Fairy Tales in that sort of genre.
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I would like to discuss "The Twelve Months". An abbreviated version of this appears in the Lang books, but the version I read as a child had been considerably elaborated. I think the told tales mostly had much more detail and embroidery than Lang's succinct report of the plots. This is a variant of the cruel stepmother story except the step-relatives were even more malicious. The heroine of my story was named Dobrunka, and the setting was Russia or a similar place in midwinter.
The stepsister takes a notion for violets , and pushes Dobrunka out into the snowstorm to look for them. Dobrunka encounters a circle of robed men around a great fire, and asks for permission to join them to warm herself. She charms then with her good manners and sweet disposition until Brother April gives her permission to gather violets, and behold! for a little while it is spring. She then takes the violets home to her evil sister. The story progresses from there, and ends with "And the snow fell and the wind blew......"
This one is certainly a cautionary tale.
http://www.rickwalton.com/folktale/holid003.htm
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What is a fairy tale? I don't know - who determines questions like that? And do they need to be determined.
To tell a story that begins with - ONCE UPON A TIME....... is magical. Someone on BookTV said that yesterday and also said that every child understands this. Are fairy tales for children?
The Little Mermaid or The Twelve Months are both unfamiliar to me. We all had our favorites didn't we?
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Looking for answers to some of my questions which have arisen because of this discussion I came acros an author who seems to be in great favor on this subject. Her name is Ruth B. Bottigheimer. The two books I read about have the titles:
Grimm's Bad Girls and Bold Boys
Fairy Tales: A New History
The New History is subtitled :"Rise Fairy Tales".. in her first chapter she explains that there are two basic plots to fairy Tales:
A)Those that restore position and patrimony
B)Those that record a rise from poverty to wealth.
She explains that the basic plot is based on Equilibrium- Disequilibrium-Equilibrium.
Much of the second book is devoted to the Italian Zoan Straparola (1490-1555) who she believes created the modern fairy tale. Because of political, economic and cultural events during his life it was the perfect time to give hope to the rising middle class.She calls him the Fairy Godfather.(Not many of those in our discussion)
I know this is a different perspective on what we are discussing at this time but I hope others may find it interesting as well.
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The question of bad girls versus bad boys is that has arisen is well worth considering.
Yes, bad boys were addressed, though not necessarily by Grimm, for example in Struwwelpeter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/struwwelpeter
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I paused here for a minute or two to check whether the link work. It does, apparently.
Struwwelpeter is a funny little book, with examples of how NOT to behave in a sequence of pictures and of what happens if one DOES, narrated in rhyme. It was designed to be read aloud to even the youngest boys and, generations later, it is still available.
Other tales of possible woe are inside : Mother, Father, son around a festively laden dining room table, the son moving back and forth on his chair until it topples; he grabs the table cloth, pulling down everyhing on it. The last picture is of the mother who, her lorgnette in hand, looks at the now empty table.
Another tsequence pictured is a group of boys walking behind each other, one of them black. The others make fun of him (I cannot now remember how) when a huge man appears in a long belted coat and cap appears with a giant ink pot. He proceeds to dip all of the other boys is dinto it, and the last picture shows them marching off in line, now all of them black.
All in all remarkable lessons, I believe - considering the time. I grew up with it but never really associated with it for I didn' DO those things! I really was a goody two-shoes, hahahaha
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JoanP, I don't know how much the "original" hardback colored fairy tale books would cost but I see that the kindle version of ALL twelve books in one file is 99 cents! http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Childrens-Books-contents-ebook/dp/B001EHF2C4/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1282535844&sr=1-7
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Whew, I am glad that I was not here earlier. I liked the Sleeping Beauty, but would definitely not have liked that type of story. I am way behind all of you because I believe that most fairy tales were told and retold as oral tradition. Think of Indian tribes. They keep their history that way.. So do Eskimo tribes. Has to be with no written tradition. I love Myths and stories of the various gods and goddesses and I would guess always consider Fairy Tales in that sort of genre.
Steph, I'm thinking along the same lines as you... that fairy tales, for me, are based on an oral tradition and are "cousins" to myths.
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My granddaughter loved Once Upon A Time and princesses.. I read her all sorts, told her even more and made up some as we went along.. But her all time favorite which was not an old fairy tale was Horton heard the Who.. I read that hundreds of times since she loved the idea of being kind to all and small.. Is that a fairy tale?? It is of course a new story, not an old one.
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Good morning, Steph! Your granddaughter and mine both enjoy those old tales. That's reassuring. I love the idea of your making up a few as you go along.
Tomorrow Lindsay will be nine years old - she is deep into fairies right now. Yesterday she told me that she thinks she saw one slipping into a flower but she didn't get there in time. Her fairies, the stories she makes up about them are all good fairies. There are no bad boys, though there are some bad girls - who are changed by the good ones. Interesting that she leaves out "bad" boys - she has three little brothers, who are often monsters.
I believe that most fairy tales were told and retold as oral tradition.
I think we're all going to agree with you. Maybe it's semantics - Warner spent some time explaining the difference between folklore and fairy tales. It seems that once the oral tales were written down and recorded, they became fairy tales. We've been focusing on the earliest known written tales, which were based on a long history of oral storytelling, going way back to myths...
Jude, I thought that was fascinating information from Ruth B. Bottigheimer on the Italian Zoan Straparola giving hope to the rising middle class in the 16th century with fairy tales. I can sense that idea lurking behind every fairy tale, I think.
And those two basic plots to fairy Tales:
Those that restore position and patrimony
Those that record a rise from poverty to wealth.
She explains that the basic plot is based on Equilibrium- Disequilibrium-Equilibrium.
hmmm..Steph asked whether we thought that Horton/Who would be classed as a fairy tale. Wouldn't you say that it is based on Equilibrium- Disequilibrium-Equilibrium?
To tell a story that begins with - ONCE UPON A TIME....... is magical
Ella
I agree, Ella. Are all imaginary stories beginning with Once Upon a Time fairy tales? Or do they have to be based on a history of oral tradition? That is a question that has arisen during our conversation here...
Struwwelpeter is a funny little book, with examples of how NOT to behave in a sequence of pictures and of what happens if one
Traudee I can just imagine you as that good little girl, delighting in this book on training those little bad boys who were making your life miserable, Traudee. I hope to look at it more closely tonight- when these little ones get to sleep.
I've never read The Twelve Months either, Ella. You can read Little Mermaid - that's a link in the heading. You really should! Ursa, can you try to find a longer version of Twelve Months than Lang's abbreviated version on the web and bring a link here? I'd do it, but can't get to it today.
Really looking forward to reading your posts and spending some time with you on this fascinating, ever-expanding subject when the kiddies get to bed tonight.
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There is a version of "The Twelve Months" at http://russian-crafts.com/tales/12months.html
I don't recall the story very well but I remember that I was enchanted by the title of "Snow White and Rose Red." I loved the idea of two sisters very different from one another with such exotic, visual names. There is a version here: http://www.authorama.com/grimms-fairy-tales-63.html
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I read the "Little Mermaid " stories and realized I had never read them before.
First I thought of the Sirens in Odysseus, but as I read more of the Mermaids detailed life and existence I could only think of one thing. It is the ending of T.S.Eliot's poem "The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock"-which I will enter here:
Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me.
I have seen them riding seaward on the waves
Combing the white hair of the waves blown back
When the wind blows the water white and black.
We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.
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The story of The Twelve Months was not known to me either, and I'm glad I had the chance to read it now. It is perfect, I believe, in the context of this book. . Thank you for the link.
In this story we have the (historically justly maligned)widowed, angry stepmother and her spoiled, selfish daughter (only one daughter here), who's getting uglier by the day, sharing their abode with the older stepdaughter from the husband's first marriage, who's much prettier. She is made the Cinderella-like, abused servant but gifted with infinite patience. She handled the impossible tasks asked of her to perfection. The outcome of the story is bound to satisfy listeners and readers alike.
This is proof, if any were needed, of the universality of human traits and interactions.
In the stories, circumstances may vary, but the message is the same, and the moral is universally understanble.
Lastly, the rescuer must not necessarily be a prince, and that is why I found the ending of The Twelve Months so pleasurable. Thank you
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I will be leaving for a family wedding in Vermont and won't be here for the rest of the discussion.
I would like to leave on a fun and upbeat note. So, for those of you who want a giggle and like the Fairytale "The Musicians of Bremen" ,Jim Henson and the Muppets have transferred the whole tale to rural Louisiana and made a movie (one hour) or a Youtube (nine minutes) presentation of this charming and intriguing tale. No Prince or Princess or Wicked Stepmothers. Simply a good story.
Enjoy !
Write into Google"The Muppet Musicians of Bremen"
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Hey Jude, we're going to miss you big time! You've been a bright light in this discussion from start to finish - from the defrocking of Bruno B. to the l Muppet Musicians of Bremen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEFG9jBHSek) - (this is a link.)
Enjoy your trip to Vermont - we're all going to miss you!
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I have always loved "The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock" - and it means so much more now that I am "aging" - as Prufrock does in this poem. I think we could do a whole discussion analyzing that one poem, don't you ? But I hadn't connected it in my mind to HC Andersen's Little Mermaid. Of course now that Jude brings those lines to us, I begin to understand the meaning of the closing lines...
"We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown."
Did you notice that he changed from referring to mermaids to calling them "sea girls"?
For a brief time, the Little Mermaid seems to have her dreams come true...a chance to gain the love of the handsome prince - not to mention an immortal soul. She has changed from a mermaid - to a girl, a sea-girl. Her tail has been slit as if by a knife. The old lady who performed this miracle was her own grandmother in the version that I read. She willingly traded her beautiful voice for human legs. Where her tail had once been, she now has two of the prettiest legs, and smallest feet of any maiden in the country. .
What stays in my mind is the image of the maiden experiencing sharp pain with every step.
Feminists must have been all over this tale...What do you think the moral of this story was? Surely this is a cautionary tale - but what is the warning?
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Marcie, thank you for the link to "The Twelve Months" - I'm going to read it tonight. Traudee, I can't wait to find out who the rescuer turns out to be - otherwise the story sounds much like Cinderella's!
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What a coincidence, Jude, or was it telepathy?
The fairy tale of the Musicians of Bremen is one of my favorites and never failed to delight my son. It lends itself so well to being retold with more imagined details of the lives the four dissimilar animals had in the robbers' deserted house. I thought of it all afternoon and smiled.
Because, looking again for the still missing Grimms Fairy Tales I found a different book, a treasure: It contains one year's worth of a monthly children's magazine. Seeing how much I looked forward and enjoyed these issues, my father took them to a bookbinder, who fashioned a handsome, durable volume.
I leafed through it and THERE was the story of the would-be musicians with a drawing of the donkey, the hunting dog, the cat and the rooster bursting through the window giving their respective clamoing voices, chasing the robbers away. A tour de force, marvelous to behold.
The "wuartet" lived together for ever after in the robbers' house, never giving Bremen another thought.
I think right there may be another lesson in this happy ending.
Here's wishing you a safe trip and lots of fun with the family at the wedding. We'll miss you.
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I hope you have a good trip, Jude. I too appreciate all of the wonderful information and insights you've shared. I'll check out the Muppets video.
"The Little Mermaid" brings to my mind a Carol Goodman novel, I've read: "The Seduction of Water." Goodman weaves a present day story against the background of a fairy tale based on an Irish legend about the Selkie Girl: a half seal-half woman who pays a dear price when she morphs from one "skin" to the other.
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I loved Snow
White and Rose Red.. There is even a two book series on the names in the science fiction line.. Forgot the author though.
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Good morning, Steph...isn't it funny, how these tales continues to be told - and updated? Does this look familiar? Patricia Wrede, 1989 ~
(http://img1.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n1/n6956.jpg)
And Marcie, while I'm not familiar with Carol Goodman's modern telling of the Selkie Girl "who pays a dear price when she morphs from one "skin" to the other," you just reminded me of the ancient tale of the Melusine, (the sea enchantress, half seal, or maybe she was a mermaid) we just read about in AS Byatt's "Possession."
Hans' Christian Andersen's tale of the Little Mermaid is supposed to have been a retelling of these ancient tales for children - really??? So morbid. That was a nice bit of cooperation when her sisters from the sea cut their hair to make a deal with the sea witch to get the mermaid's voice back, I suppose. But the poor little thing was unable to kill the prince as the witch demanded - and so she killed herself by tossing herself into the sea foam. What message would a child take from such a tale?
It took Disney to take the bite out of that story - I've forgotten how that ended...
Off now to look at The Twelve Months - fell asleep last night - three grandsons really know how to exhaust Meanma!
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Marcie, I just read The Twelve Months (http://russian-crafts.com/tales/12months.html) - and since you had provided the link to Snow White and Rose Red (http://www.authorama.com/grimms-fairy-tales-63.html), I read that one too. I had forgotten the tale too. Both of these stories are suitable for children to read - both about sisters too - but what a difference! If you get a chance to read these two, back to back, I recommend you do. You can't help but compare them family circumstances. Does environment determine character? As Traudee pointed out yesterday, the moral is perfectly clear in each, easily understandable for a child, but the family circumstances were different. I agree with you, Traudee, the stories are perfect for this discussion as we understand the hardships and difficult times of the medieval period.
I'll put the links to both stories in the header...Today is Lindsay's b'day - will be back much later and look forward to your comments.
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That is a nice rendition of the Twelve Months story, but it does not contain the phrase "And the snow fell and the wind blew....." that ended the version I read in the Book House Books series. That phrase, repeated several times and at the very end of the story truly remains in my memory as a suitable end for the evil step-mother and her daughter lost in the snow.
I read Musicians of Bremen and Snow White and Rose Red in the same volume of the set. The cover illustration, now almost worn away, was fron Snow White and Rose Red. I like it very much also.
I personally don't think the Andersen Stories are suitable for young children. The Little Mermaid transmits a negative lesson, and The Little Match Girl is the stuff of Nightmares.
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Ursa, I've just a minute - but want to ask you if this is the one you remember?
The Twelve Months (http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=wiggin&book=fairy&story=months)
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I just finished reading the "Twelve Months Story" and I do think that the phrase " and the snow fell and the wind blew" should end the story - it's like a refrain in poetry. Great tale!
I followed the link to the Baldwin Project and read a number of the tales that were unfamiliar to me.
What a gift!! Thanks so much, JoanP for making it available.
I agree that many of Andersen's tales may not be suitable for young children unless you consider that those stories may help develop empathy or sympathy for the fate of others. There are too many young folks out there who don't seem to care enough about their fellow human beings.
No one read to me as a child - I found all my own reading and had my heart broken over some of Andersen and then later by "Black Beauty" - but that's another genre!
There are lessons to be learned from most of the tales - virtue being always rewarded, for instance. Not always true in the material sense but certainly in the spiritual sense. Villains always coming to a bad end - well, maybe!!!
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JoanP - you might tell your granddaughter that, as a child, I used to find milkweed pods, split them open until the silky interior showed and hang them in the willow tree as beds for the fairies. Do you have milkweed in Arlington? This is a good time of year to make fairy beds!
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Ah, that is the exact same book by Patricia Wrede that I read and looked for her in all sorts of places to see what else she had done.
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The version of The Twelve Months above is almost identical with the story I have. The wording is just a little different; perhaps they were translated from the same source. In my book Dobrunka's "prince" comes after the mother and sister disappear, but the couple and their children seem to continue to live on her farm. My book has an illustration of the sister in a howling snowstorm with her cloak and long braids blowing in front of her. And of course the reiteration of "and the snow fell and the wind blew". The repeated phrase and the drawing tend to stick in the mind even after many many years.
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Just back from granddaughter Lindsay's 9th birthday celebration - three days of conversations about fairies and fairy tales. Yesterday morning we made fairy cookies - on the plates you may be able to see both tulips AND fairies - http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo55/jonkie2/DSC02035.jpg (http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo55/jonkie2/DSC02035.jpg)
After the cookies, she read "The Twelve Months" online when I was looking for the version Ursa remembered. She was unfazed by the deaths of the mother and daughter - Did notice that the girl prayed as she was freezing to death, but decided she got what she deserved. I hadn't noticed the praying part, and admit that the unanswered prayer disturbed me some.
JoanR - I wish we had milkweeds...not sure what they look like - or if we have them in Arlington. What kind of trees do they grow on? Lindsay would love to make little milkweed hammocks from them, I'm sure. By the way, she was really pressing me for the reason there are so few fairies in fairy tales. She thinks those without fairies should be called something else. Not sure what to tell her -
By the way - take a look here - the cover is a link, I hope... (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21tvgG8J32L._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU01_AA115_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Snow-White-Rose-Patricia-Wrede/dp/0312931808/ref=sr_1_16?s=STORE&ie=UTF8&qid=1282777467&sr=1-16)...I think I need to get one for Lindsay, a belated birthday present...
I'm going to go see what Marina Warner has to say about the "blondes" in these fairy tales. It must have been important enough to her to include blondness in the title...
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~ August Book Club Online
Source Book:
* From the Beast to the Blonde (http://www.librarything.com/work/432) by Marina Warner
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/beastbookcover.jpg) | Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and comprehensive study of the changing cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them. The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories. Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.")
Warner's book is huge. We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness. |
If you are unable to get your hands on this book, not to worry. The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those fortunate enough to locate Warner's book can share the commentary with the rest of us.
For Your Consideration - Week 4 ~ August 23-31
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/frombeasttoblonde/blondRapnuzel.jpg)
1. What do you think? Can we call Hans Christian Andersen's "Little Mermaid" a fairy tale since it is a re-telling of a long line of mermaid tales?"
2. Have you ever read The Little Mermaid (http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html)?
Why do you think Andrew Lang included previous tales Andersen wrote about mermaids in his colour books, but not this one?
3. What did you think of the Grimms' treatment of The Little Mermaid (http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html) - after reading Andersen's stories Lang included in his pink and brown Colour Fairy Books? - Hans the Mermaid's Son (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/410.htm) AND
TheMermaid and the Boy (http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/274.htm)
4. What do you think was the message behind the story? The moral? Was this a fairy tale? Did it have a happy ending?
5. Do you want to nominate a favorite fairy tale or one that you haven't read yet for discussion here in the coming days while we are still together?
6. Have you read The Twelve Months (http://russian-crafts.com/tales/12months.html) or do you remember Snow White and Rose Red (http://www.authorama.com/grimms-fairy-tales-63.html)? What determines the difference between these two sets of sisters?
7. Can you think of any fairy tale heroines who were NOT blonde? Why do you think the old story of Silverhair (http://www.edsanders.com/stories/3bears/3bears.htm) was turned into "The Story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears?" Do you see blondeness as a symbol of innocence in this tale?
8. Were all the blondes of fairy tales innocent and virtuous?
9. Do the beloved old fairy tales of Perrault and Grimm still have significance for today's children?
10. What effect did the feminist movement have on children's books and fairy tales?
Related Links:
Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/); Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/); A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8T-ZWRehw&feature=related); Little Red Riding Hood (Charles Perrault - 1697) (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/321.htm); Little Red Riding Hood (Brothers Grimm - 1812) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html#grimm); Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end ) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm026.html); Charles Perrault's Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html#perrault);the Brothers Grimm ~ Cinderella, 1812 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html#grimm); the Grimms' 1857 version of Cinderella (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm021.html grimm); earlier version- Cinder Maid (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0510a.html); the 9th century Chinese Cinderella (http://www.myseveralworlds.com/2007/08/02/yeh-shen-the-chinese-cinderella/); Giambatista Basile's Sleeping Beauty - (The Sun, the Moon and Talia)1657 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0410.html#basile);
History of Sleeping Beauty - from Arthurian legend Perceforest 1567 (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/sleepingbeauty/history.html); Charles Perrault's Sleeping Beauty in the Wood 1697 (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html);
Brothers Grimm - Little Brier Rose - Sleeping Beauty (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm050.html); The Little Mermaid, Grimm, Andersen (http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html);Hans the Mermaid's Son (Lang's Pink Fairy book - Andersen (http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/410.htm) -
TheMermaid and the Boy (Lang's Brown Fairy book- Andersen (http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/274.htm); The Twelve Months (http://russian-crafts.com/tales/12months.html); Snow White and Rose Red (http://www.authorama.com/grimms-fairy-tales-63.html)
Discussion Leader: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) with JoanR, Guest DL
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JoanP - Here's a link with some information on milkweed pods and their silk:
http://handbookofnaturestudy.blogspot.com/2008/09/milkweed-pods-and-seeds-outdoor-hour.html
They don't grow on trees -milkweed is a common plant in upstate NY - has some poisonous aspects, I see! You have to detach the ripe pod from the plant, slit it open to make a little bed - the silk makes a downy mattress and the pod itself is just big enough for a tiny bed or hammock. Some fairies are quite domesticated and appreciate living in a dollhouse - since your granddaughter lives in town, she might be happy with that!
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Granddaughter now lives in NC, JoanR, but will appreciate the information about fairies and dollhouses. Can you tell me what to tell her about the term, fairy tales, and how they came to be named that way - when there are no fairies in most of them? I'm suspecting Perrault and his Contes des Fees - but not sure...
I hope some of you with the Warner book will look at the final chapters on Blondness - so much interesting information there. If you don't have Warner, will you try to name some of the fairy tales with blond heroines? Maybe it would be easier to name the dark haired ones? :D
Among other symbolism for blondness, Warner mentions "fair," rather than "yellow." She also says blondness is an indication of a virgin's youth as well as innocence. She says that many children are fair in infancy and grow darker with age. Why do you think that is? My boys were newborns with dark hair, which fell out and turned blonder and blonder as they grew - towheads. But today, they all have dark hair! I remember it happening when they went to the barber for their first hair cuts...which happened when they got tired of mama's " bowl" cuts. I never used a bowl, I swear - but will admit they looked as if I had.
the first blond fairy tale I thought of was Goldilocks. An obvious choice, you say. But isn't this curious? - Goldilocks started out as a silverhaired old woman (even before that version, the intruder was a fox.) In Robert Southey's version, the intruder was an old woman named Silverhair. (http://www.edsanders.com/stories/3bears/3bears.htm) What an interesting story, so much behind it.
Let's look for more blonde heroines in fairy tales...
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The association between fairies and fair hair is interesting. In some of the explanations I have read about the Irish and British fairies it is thought that the stories originated with the"little people" who were believed to have retreated partially underground in response to threats from immigrants who were larger in body size. These Pictish people would have almost certainly been dark of skin and hair. In Ireland you can still visit what are called "fairy forts" which are most interesting - much of them underground. These were the fairies that reportedly stole or exchanged children and created much of the mischief that you find in the fairy stories. These fairies are still a presense in Ireland - one of the runways at the Shannon airport was relocated because the original site would have destroyed a "fairy tree" - an enormous hawthorne. The workers walked right off the job.
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Y es, I do wonder about the Blondes as well. I dont remember being blonde as being something the heroine had to be.. But in Snow White, Rose Red, Snow White was blonde and fair.. There was a fantasy book that Winter who was the villain was blonde and pale..
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Good heavens, Ursa - Have you stumbled right into the connection between the term "fairy tales" and fairies? After reading your post of the fairy forts in Ireland, I'm reading all sorts of sources on the fairy tales- Druids' magic and believers in the fairies. I see from your post that the power of their presence is still alive in Ireland today - in Shannon and wherever else those fairy forts still exist...
Here's a first person account by someone who grew up in Ireland -
Evil Fairies
Evil fairies in Irish folklore steal people’s souls and leave changelings behind in their place. They curse those who interfere with their precious fairy forts. They wail at your window when one of your family members is about to die.
I grew up in Ireland and Irish folklore is full of tales of fairies up to no good....
Many Irish families claim to be haunted by evil fairies called Banshees. The Banshee is an Irish fairy that emerges at night drawing a comb through her long silvery hair. (NOTICE HER SILVERY HAIR!) She is said to be drawn to certain families (mostly those whose surname is preceded by an O', ie. O' Grady, O'Brien and O'Connor) and to appear at their home wailing before or shortly after one of their family member dies.
‘Away with the fairies’ is a popular expression in Ireland used to describe someone whose mind is elsewhere. Its origins lie in the belief that mischevious or evil fairies steal people’s souls and carry them off to the underworld, leaving changelings behind in their place. There’s even a recorded case of an Irish man who tried to murder his wife, claiming her soul had been kidnapped by fairies and that her body was inhabited by a fairy spirit.
As a child I was told never to play inside a fairy fort because the fairies don't like it and might curse you as a result. Fairy forts are the remains of circular houses in which Irish people lived from the Iron Age up until early Christian times. You can see them dotted all over Ireland, circles of standing stones, usually with long grass growing in between them where modern man fears to tread.
We don’t really call our Irish fairies evil fairies. In fact we often refer to fairies as the ‘good people’ but they’re certainly capable of doing evil to those who interfere with their ways. Whether our mythology is the result of an active imagination, a drop too much of the Irish ale Puteen or a special Irish sensitivity to the supernatural, well, that's for you to decide!
http://www.fantasybooksandmovies.com/evil-fairies.html
Did you notice the Banshee queen with the silvery hair? Much like the old woman in an earlier version of Goldilocks, before she was rewritten as a young girl with golden curls... -
Stephanie - notes a another connection in The Twelve Months - the same thing as we see in Goldilocks - from the old to the young and the hair color -
"Upon the highest peak burned a large fire, surrounded by twelve blocks of stone on which sat twelve strange beings. Of these the first three had white hair, three were not quite so old, three were young and handsome, and the rest still younger..."
More on Blondness - Warner had an interesting note on the reason for Snow White's dark hair color - need to get dinner - will be back later...
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There are some interesting tidbits about the blonde heroines in fairy tales and elsewhere at http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HairOfGold
There is an overview of feminist involvement with fairy tales(in primary texts and through feminist theory as a critique of the genre and its production) at http://www.answers.com/topic/feminism-and-fairy-tales
I've not heard of the author, Tala Bar, of the following article about the desirability of blond hair and I can't judge the value of the article: http://www.tstsy.com/2010/04/09/what-is-the-meaning-of-blonde-hair-and-why-it-is-so-desirable-all-over-the-world/
There is a little info about Tala Bar at http://www.bewilderingstories.com/bios/talabar_bio.html
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Steph, I just reread Snow White-Rose Red. There's a link up in the heading. I can't find a description of Snow White at all, don't see her described in this story as blond and fair. Did I read it too fast?
Marina Warner writes of "a teeming population of blond fairy tale heroines."
There are references to blondness all the way back to Homer's Helen's golden hair... She says "only Snow White is dark because her story opens with her mother's wish for her babie's hair the color of a raven's wing..."
Remember Madame D'Aulnoy - she is the one who wrote fairy tales in the 16th century at the same time Perrault was collecting and writing down tales for the salons and court. Madame D'Aulnoy first termed her works "contes de fées" (fairy tales)
One of her early works was
Fair Goldilocks , (not to be confused with Goldilocks and the Three Bears.)
Listen to her description of the power of golden hair -
(http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/authors/aulnoy/1892/fairgoldilocks.html)"THERE was once a king's (laughter who was so beautiful that nothing in the whole world could be compared with her. And because she was so beautiful they called her Princess Goldilocks; for her hair was finer than gold, wonderfully fair, and it fell in ringlets to her feet. Her only covering for her head was her curly hair and a garland of flowers; her dresses were embroidered with diamonds and pearls; and no one could look on her without loving her."
Have things changed? Do blondes still hold the power over men? Do they "have more fun?" Have you ever wished you were blonde? Are you, were you blonde? We'd really like to hear from you what it's like.
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Marcie, we were posting at the same time - I just now see those fascinating links you found for us. Will save them for the morning - we're on East Coast time ;D - off to bed! Thanks!
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N o, but the cover of Snow White Rose Red shows her as a blonde. I dont remember reading what color her hair was in the book.. Interestingly enough.. Current fiction tends to consider the Fey ( fairy) as the most dangerous other..
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My Book House version of Snow White and Rose Red describes Snow White as blonde. In that story I think the purpose is contrast rather than that one was more beautiful or good than the other; they are both described as beautiful and good. It is Snow White who marries the transformed bear while Rose Red marries his brother, so perhaps blondes are preferred!
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I just read this - Snow White of the Rose Red story is not to be confused with the Grimm fairy tale Snow White (which is written Schneewittchen in German, rather than Schneeweißchen) that provided the basis for the Walt Disney film Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs; this is a completely different character, and she has nothing in common with the other one, other than sharing her name in English, and having an encounter with a dwarf.
But Ursa, you and Marcie are on to something when you noted that Snow White - Rose Red is probably portrayed as fair on the cover and in the text because she was more beautiful and virtuous than Rose Red. From the text -
"Snow White was quieter and more gentle than Rose-red. Rose-red loved to run about the fields and meadows, and to pick flowers and catch butterflies; but Snow-white sat at home with her mother and helped her in the household, or read aloud to her when there was no work to do."
Warner describes at length the heroines who were blond - young, innocent, virtuous, fair, good and beautiful. (I would add "naive" to the description..) Marcie, that was quite an article you posted last evening on "blondness."
•The Fair Folk found blond hair so attractive that both babies and women with this color of hair were much more likely to be taken.
•Occasional fairy tales explicitly describe the heroines as blond in the text, such as The Myrtle, The Goose Girl and Fair Goldilocks. But Victorian illustrators would depict them as blond except when they were explicitly described as not blond in the text. Which is to say, Snow White didn't get drawn as blond (and sometimes even she does).
•Goldilocks combines both the innocence and the folly associated with blond hair.
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/blondRapnuzel.jpg)
I was also interested in Tala Bar's article explaining the desirability of blond hair...fascinating. It explains the love of gold and also sun worship. A girl's hair that resembled gold or the sun was considered an indication of her worth. I can't help but think of the desirability of fair hair today. The article speaks of bleached blonds - Warner had mentioned that when Hollywood introduced bleached blonds such as Marilyn Monroe in the 50's and 60's, the connotation of "innocence" was lost.
Is a bleached blond still more attractive to princes - to men, today? Or is the allure gone? For a while redheads were the rage, but now there are so many young women who dye their hair red...and maroon and pink even, I'm not sure if hair color has the same meaning it had in the fairy tales.
What do you think?
Another issue we have yet to consider is the Feminist view of Fairy Tales. Can you guess what their reaction was back in the 70's? Was there a change since then? Marcie brought a good article to our attention...let's consider that next as we consider women's hair color.
From Marcie - There is an overview of feminist involvement with fairy tales(in primary texts and through feminist theory as a critique of the genre and its production) at http://www.answers.com/topic/feminism-and-fairy-tales
Here's something I was thinking about as I ran through my Friday errands - were all the blondes of fairy tales innocent and virtuous? How about Goldilocks? How would you characterize that little rascal?
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Hmmm, since "Goldilocks" with the golden hair wasn't a character in the original story, (Joan, as you pointed out earlier I think), we probably can't read too much into her hair color and the description of her character and what happens to her. The story didn't start out with a blonde.
I found this background info on the Goldilocks name in the annotated Surlalune fairy tales at http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/goldilocks/notes.html#EIGHT
A little Girl named Goldilocks: Goldilocks is not present in Southey's original version. The trespasser is a little old Woman instead. Goldilocks has actually enjoyed many incarnations and names.
Twelve years after Southey's story was first published in 1837, Joseph Cundall changed the old woman into a young girl named 'Silver Hair' in the version he published in his Treasury of Pleasure Books for Young Children (1849). He apparently felt there were too many stories with old women, and wanted to present a young girl in the story instead, perhaps for didactic reasons. Then in 1858 the character was dubbed 'Silver-Locks' in Aunt Mavor's Nursery Tales. Next she became 'Golden Hair' around 1868 in Aunt Friendly's Nursery Book. Finally, in Old Nursery Stories and Rhymes, illustrated by John Hassall (circa 1904), she became Goldilocks. The name has stuck and been used the most often ever since (Opie 1974, 199-200).
Maybe something was going on around 1868 where golden hair was valued (or maybe it was just more realistic for a girl to have golden hair rather than silver).
Since many people in northern European countries have blonde hair, it might be that stories originating or retold in those countries would feature heroines with blonde hair?
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I agree that people with fair hair are so much more common in the northern parts of Europe. Like red heads in Scotland actually.. So the fairy tales would probably reflect this.
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Marina Warner devotes two chapters to hair, golden hair - citing examples of fair blond hair going way back - to Homer's fair haired Aphrodite, to Venus; Virgil describes Dido's hair as "golden."The astrological sign Virgo appears as blonde in Les Tres Richers Heures du Duc de Berry, the illuminated manuscript painted in the 15th century.
She gives so many examples - here's Botticeli's 15th century Aphrodite rising from the sea wearing nothing but her long blond hair...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Birth_of_Venus_Botticelli.jpg/380px-)
It seems from reading all this - that fair hair, blond hair has been viewed throughout history as the ideal of beauty, doesn't it? Even before Fairy Tales were written down. I'm going to quote Warner on the topic of hair - and then I have a question for you...
"Blond hair shares with gold certain mythopoeic properties: gold does not tarnish, it can be beaten and hammered. annealed and spun and still will not diminish or fade, its brightness survives time, burial, and the forces of decay, as does hair, more than any other part or residue of the flesh.
It is hair's imperviousness as a natural substance that yields the deeper symbolic meanings and warrants the high place hair plays in the motif repertory of fairy tales and other legends.
Such quasi-magical properties make it a symbol of invulnerability..."
Does it strike you as it did me as I read this, that the maidens of the fairy tales...before Grimm...evidenced this same ability to withstand the cruelty of their times...like gold, they survived.
Before we come to the end of our time together on this subject, I'd like to talk with you on the effects that feminists had on the traditional fairy tales you, we grew up with. You did not like the raw reality expressed in the early tales before Perrault and Grimm abbreviated them and yet these are the ones the Fems objected to. I would like to talk about their stance on fairy tales today. Maybe we're getting close to the reason girls are not encouraged to read fairy tales today. Maybe not.
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I didn't know that girls today are discouraged from reading fairy tales. Don't mothers who read to their children ever read fairy tales? I'm sure that they must. At least if they start with The Little Mermaid from Disney, they would branch out to more tales. It would be a sad state of affairs if people were discouraged from finding out about the roots of our culture! Say not so!!
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In Chapters 21 and 22 of this book, Marina Warner elaborates in detail on The Language of Hair and on Blondes; the information is fascinating. These chapters also contain myriad facts hat are not widely known -- one more reason why this book is so valuable IMHO and a pleasure to savor, slowly, at one's leisure, according to one's interest.
The author does not refer only to human hair but also to animals' coats, skin, pelt, fur. She relates the incidental fact that, in Perrault's original version, Cinderella's slippers were not of glass but of vair(=fleece).
According to WArner, hair constitutes one's identity. The language of the self would be stripped of one of its richest resouces, without hair. Through hair the body reveals the passage of time and the fluctuating claims of gender; strangers offer a glossary of clues in the way they do the hair on their heads.
Hair, Warner says, is central to magic; snippets of hair have been used in love charms and fertility rites and, to the Greeks, were symbols, akin to fetishes, of loss and mourning, and thrown into the funeral pyre. Victorians put the locks of a dear one in to lockets.
Long hair was especially prized - and often the solution to a calamity. Grimm's Rapunzel imprisoned in an inaccessible tower, pulled up her lover by her hair and gained her freedom by descending (with him, one presumes) in the same manner.
Blond hair, Warner says, shares certain prperties with gold.
Gold does not tarnish; it can be hammered, annealed or spun, will not diminish or fade, its brightness survives time, burial and the forces of decay ----
and so does hair, more than any other part of the body.
The imperviousness of hair as a natural substance led to its deeper symbolic meaning and warrants the high place hair plays in the fairy tales. Hair can be cut, sizzled with hot tongs, steeped in chemicals and dyes without apparent suffering, and will go on growing, sometimes in abundance, and is not stopped by death. This phenomenon was noted in the case of great heroes, like Charlemagne (+814) and Saint Olav, King of Norway (+1030), and stimulated the cult that developed round their tombs. (pg. 372)
On the same page, Warner writes
"Our capillary arts borrow and build on the physiology of hair, which we humans share with other creatures of fur and fleece. The affective behaviour of our pelt inspires dramatic
variations : the stiff spikes and punk styles imitate the bristling aggression, and reproduce literally the thrills of terror, both given and received : these are hackles raised in emphasis. Perioxide blondes, like Marilyn Monroe in her winsome dumb babyish act, recall the fluffy down of some children's heads, or baby chicks, or ducklings. The conflict btween the pretence at innocence and known sexiness creats the special effefct of the Hollywood blonde ..."
During this discussion we've seen that fairy tales were told in many parts of the world,
(e.g. an early Chinese version of Cinderella), the earliest legends shrouded in mythology. All of these tales were transmitted orally. Many centuries later came Charles Perrault, idle bourgeois though he may have been with too much time on his hands. It was he who collected the stories and put them all together. A century or so later came the Brothers Grimm, and there was also Giambattista Basile.
The tellers and sources were different; the tales had been told to different audiences; different languages were involved. No wonder the versions are different !
Blond hair, we know, signifies virginity, innocence, vulnerability. And the tradition, the the ideal still exists, though perhaps we no longer take it literally in these modern times. Hollywood certainly hasn't let go - between [ i]Gentlemen Prefer Blondes[/i] or, more recently, Legally Blond.
The Scandinavians (Danes, Norwegians, Swedes and Icelanders) are predominantly fair-haired, and old Norse mythology describes them as such. Millions in central Europeans are of Slav descent, and in Mediterranean countries dark-hair and darker complexions are the rule.
Even so I am not sure we can deduce that the fairy tales of of blond heroines originated in the north of Europe.
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Sorry the previous post looks relatively small (to my eyes, at least). I was experimenting with a different font, but it may have been the wrong choice. Perhaps this one will be better.
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I have been doing a bit of web surfing re blondes in fairy stories.
Read an interesting article on www.amren.com entitled "Blondes through the Ages". The article covers the preference for blondes by the Greeks and Romans, and the continuing preference right up to the present day.
I am happy now. My hair was always a sort of goldie coloured brown, which I hated. Now that it is completely silver I love it. Closer to platinum ;)
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I think the feminists' objections to fairy tales was the passivity of the heroines. The maiden waits for someone to come and rescue her. When the tales were composedDo maidens didn't really have any other choice. Many or most marriages were contracted for reasons of property or alliances and the woman usually didn't have anything to say about it.
There are fairy tales with active heroines who pursue their own fates. There is at least once collection of these stories but I don't remember the name. Twelve Months comes closest of the stories we have looked at here. Dobrunka at leasts influences her own fate by being nice to the men representing the months.
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It's so good to see you all here - maybe we can get some of the questions about fairy tales answered before our time is over here...
roshanarose, I was unable to read the site on blondes that you posted earlier, but persisted and I'm glad I did - here's another link to the American Renaissance article that you posted - the review of Joanna Pitman's book, "On Blondes." - http://www.amren.com/ar/2003/08/index.html#article2
Some interesting observations in the review- they made me smile when considering Marina Warner's comment which Traudee posted -
"Hair constitutes one's identity"
Don't you think that's funny after reading the review roshanarose brought us? Did Warner include hair color when she said hair constitutes one's identity? How about hair color that comes out of a bottle?
- "Blonde women are generally thought of as the most beautiful, not only in northern Europe and North America where many natural blondes live, but also in those parts of the world where blondes are rare.
It is understandable that women might want to look more like rulers or conquerors, but the women of Rome wanted to look like enemies who had been defeated and enslaved. The Roman preference for blondes seems to have been more than a matter of fashion or a passing desire for the exotic. "
- "During the Middle Ages women continued to dye their hair blonde, despite exhortations to the contrary by clerics, who pointed to the blonde tresses of the temptress Eve (perhaps thereby making blonde hair even more attractive). For the Europeans of this period, blonde hair represented dangerous eroticism, sexual temptation, and beauty, but also sexual purity, moral goodness, and spirituality."
-"Renaissance Italy and England continued to admire blonde hair. ...Venetian ladies devoted their Saturday afternoons to blonding their hair (they could choose from at least 36 recipes for bleach), and a contemporary noted that just as “the women of old time did most love yellow hair … the Venetian women at this day, and the Paduan, and those of Verona, and other parts of Italy practice the same vanity.”
- "In the twentieth century, blonde hair has reigned supreme as the pinnacle of beauty. The blonde continues to be sought after by men worldwide. " As one blonde Japanese 20-year-old explains, “It’s a form of rebellion, rejecting my Japaneseness in order to look more Western, to look better.
Likewise, most of the women who appear on Mexican television could almost be mistaken for Norwegians. ”
"Hair constitutes one's identity."
Indeed! roshanarose, "golden brown" sounds wonderful to me - but then, so does "platinum" - which will constitute your identity. I love it - hope mine goes platinum some time soon!
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As I read the review of Joanna Pittman's book, I couldn't help but imagine the Feminist reaction to reading this. Not sure exactly who these "Feminists" are - Warner talks about the Fems of the 70's but then later in the book talks about those writers (women) of today who are writing of girls who are less passive as Ursamajor points out - than the maiden of Fairy Tales - who patiently waits for her rescuer -
But where does that leave the beloved tales of Perrault, of the Brothers Grimm? JoanR asks an interesting question. Do modern mothers of today read the old fairy tales to their children? She is sure they must be. JoanR, I wish I could say for sure that they do. What do the rest of you think? Fairy tales or not? If you can reassure JoanR, please do!
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After reading Pittman I thought about many recent, well relatively recent, depictions of Jesus Christ. He too, in many pictures included in Sunday School stories, had wavy golden locks and blue eyes. Hardly what you would expect of a Jew from that time. Many questions unanswered. Instead of God creating us in his image, was it the other way around?
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There is an interesting article, based on a 2008 survey of what parents in the UK read to their children at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/4125664/Traditional-fairytales-not-PC-enough-for-parents.html
"Favourites such as Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Cinderella and Rapunzel are being dropped by some families who fear children are being emotionally damaged."
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Roshanarose, I'm so glad you linked Mrs. Pittman's excellent article. In the context of this book it is important and just what we needed.
JoanP, in the opening paragraphs of Chapter 22, The Language of Hair II, on pg. 317, Marina Warner talks about human hair in general, , NOT specifically blond hair (though that, logically, would be included), and both genders.
She refers to Joan of Arc's cropped hair; the monk's tonsure; the ringlets of the Hasidic scholar; the GI.'s crewcut, and her point is well taken.
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We need to recognize that in the last generation there have been thousands of books published for young children. Many of these deal with the kind of problems children have TODAY. There is, for instance, a rather controversial book entitled something like "I have two mommies", about a family of two Lesbians and their child. While the better known fairy tales like Cinderella will persist, through Disney if no other way, I think the Victorian fairy tales will be read less and less. Most of these tales have little to say to modern children.
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Ursa, you raise a valid point.
There are modern families with two mommies, and - for that matter - ones with two daddies.
And books addressing these new family situations have been published. But libraries have not exactly rushed to implementation. Also, there have been very contentious, persistent protests by parents against the inclusion in the reading curriculum of any books pertaining to young children in non-traditional families.
I know of one case, in or near Boston, where the father, a lawyer, withdrew his daughter from the public school she was attending when such a book was being discussed. That was two or three years ago. I have no idea how the case was resolved.
I believe we'll always have fairy tales. For our grandchildren, reading them may hinge on a question of relevance.
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I believe we'll always have fairy tales. For our grandchildren, reading them may hinge on a question of relevance. Traudee
I'm thinking about what you say, Traudee - whether our grandchildren will read the fairy tales - and if they don't, don't you thnk they will disappear - except in the Disney movies? ANd even those are not shown much any more, are they?
Ursamajor thinks "most of the tales have little to say to modern children." Do you agree?
Marcie posted that article concerning a 2008 poll of mothers in the UK- did you read that? Stunning!
According to the survey -
Top 10 fairy tales we no longer read:
1. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
2. Hansel and Gretel
3. Cinderella
4. Little Red Riding Hood
5. The Gingerbread Man
6. Jack and the Beanstalk
7. Sleeping Beauty
8. Beauty and the Beast
9. Goldilocks and the Three Bears
10. The Emperor's New Clothes
What do you think, JoanR - if mothers are no longer reading Fairy Tales to their children, and if there is so much more out there that older kids find more relevant to their lives, do you think ...well, do you think Fairy Tales will fade away?
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When roshanarose posted yesterday about depictions of Jesus Christ with wavy golden locks and blue eyes, I was reminded of something I had noted from B. Bettelheim in the introduction to his book at the start of this discussion.
He wrote - "Most fairy tales originated in periods when religion was a most important part of life; thus they deal, directly or by inference, with religious themes. A great many Western fairy tales have religious content; but most of these stories are neglected today and unknown to the larger public just because for many, there religious themes no longer arouse universally and personally meaningful associations"
He adds - "Fairy tales abound in religious motifs; many only a small number of fairy tales are still widely known."
This got me thinking whether we are talking about something more than just the relevance of fairy tales today.
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According to a librarian who responded to my questions, it does definitely seem as if fewer children are being read to these days and fewer children are being exposed to the kinds of literature that builds their imaginations. Fewer children play as we did in a creative way - or just for fun without a "goal" having been set by the "experts". Electronic gadgets can't make up for the freedom we had as children.
I think that the old tales will survive - Ancient Rome and Greece vanished but their literature is still here. There will always be some who will save our stories.
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JoanR - I'm afraid your librarian is right. Yesterday I went back to the Bettelheim and found these notes -
"Fairy tales abound in religious motifs; many Biblical stories are of the same nature as fairy tales."
"Throughout history a child's intellectual life depended on mythical, religious stories and fairy tales."
While we might not agree with him this psychologist on everything, I think he's on to something when he talks of the
the influence of the reading of fairy tales - and Biblical stories - on a child's moral development.
Does your librarian talk about the type of books kids are reading today? Do they take the place of the old tales with their intrinsic morals?
Here's another question for all - do you think children read Bible Stories to the extent they one were?
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We'll leave the lights on here for a day or two for final comments. Thank you all for sharing favorite tales and insights. I have to admit, I learned more than I ever thought I would before we started.
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JoanP, thank you for your wonderful leadership helping us delve into this complex and wondrous topic. And thanks to all of you other participants from whom I also learned a lot.
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JoanP - Thank you for patiently leading us all through a discussion of what soon became a much more complex subject than one would have thought initially. It's been a fun and illuminating journey. I'm glad to have been on it. Now that I see how many, many more tales are out there, I'll continue to look for them. Thanks again!!
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JoanP - You opened many new doors for me. Thank You.
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The discussion was an eye-opener, wasn't it? As you say, JoanR, much more complex than anticipated. We did learn a lot - read some wondrous tales and then there were those such as Sleeping Beauty that I can never erase from my mind. The story was "spoiled" for me. (This is not to say that others were)
roshanarose - I found an interesting article that hints at "new doors" and leaves some hope that the genre will continue - t- I'm not sure if I agree completely with all of this - nor do I want to leave behind in the archives the fairy tales of old - but this probably provides insight into how how they will be viewed in the future and what will take their place -
This article speaks of the fact that fairy tales reflect lived realities of the writers and readers so perhaps future stories in keeping with the feminist project may one day reflect a new reality, a more prejudice‐free world. For those of you who are interested in the future of fairy tales -
"Historically, the feminist theoretical response to fairy tales is a product of the Women's Movement in the United States and Europe and grew out of attacks on patriarchy in the late 1960s by feminists like Simone de Beauvoir, Adrienne Rich, and Betty Friedan. This debate spawned a broad discussion about literary practices and their effects on the socializing process. In the popular press, texts like Madonna Kolbenschlag's Kiss Sleeping Beauty Goodbye: Breaking the Spell of Feminine Myths and Models (1979), Colette Dowling's 1981 best‐seller The Cinderella Complex: Women's Hidden Fear of Independence explored these issues, while within the academy, folklorists and literary critics developed critiques informed by the debate.
Feminist folklorists like Claire Farrer demonstrated how in the Western tradition patriarchal practices have kept men in the role of editors and compilers to the exclusion of women. She found that folklore collectors consulted men about stories and their experiences as raconteurs, but consulted females only for information on such subjects as ‘charms, cures, and quaint beliefs’. Other feminists levelled attacks against the critical and research apparatus for working with fairy tales. Torborg Lundell, for example, argued that primary texts in folklore and fairy‐tale research, like Antti Aarne and Stith Thompson's The Types of the Folktale and Thompson's Motif Index of Folk Literature, have an inherent gender bias, ignoring strong heroines through selective labelling, misleading plot summaries, and placing the focus on male rather than female characters
That the long tradition of feminist fairy tales is as yet generally unknown to the larger public has to do with the methods of canon formation, publishing history, and the distribution of power and literature within patriarchy, as Marina Warner has demonstrated in her significant study From the Beast to the Blonde: On Fairytales and their Tellers (1994). The question remains as to what the next step will be. Recent work by feminists such as Karen Rowe and Cristina Bacchilega suggests there have been significant advances brought about by the interactions between feminist theorizing and feminist practice. The anthologies of so‐called alternative stories are, in fact, equally valid primary stories of realms of experience and longings for a better world the fairy tale can make real."
Feminism and Fairy Tales (http://www.answers.com/topic/feminism-and-fairy-tales)
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JoanP, thank you for the quote from this interesting article and the link. I read it in toto. How unfortunate that we can't talk about it further.
The author (whose name I could not find) surprisingly (to me) considers all feminist writings as feminist fairy tales. I'd say that is a debatable point.
(There's no mention of Germaine Greer, whose book The Female Eunuch (1970) caused quite a stir.)
As to the future of fairy tales, my feelings are similar to what JoanR has expressed in her # 269.
Thank you for an absorbing, far-ranging discussion and all the had work you did.
In haste : I'm preparing (or trying to) for hurricane Earl.
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Although a fairly simplistic explanation for the shift (if any) away from fairy tales, would depend on the "keepers" of the fairy tales. ie those individuals, male and female, who learned to love fairytales when they were small and who passed their favourites down generation to generation. If I had had granddaughters I would have been a keeper, with grandsons, even though the first stories they heard were fairy stories, my daughter saw to that, the young boys of today have their computers at their disposal and DVDs etc. Star Wars are my grandsons' ideal, so to speak.
I am not for a moment saying that all young boys follow this pattern. And good on them.
The new doors btw were the doors behind which the "hidden" stories of tales were to be found, not necessarily replacements for fairy tales.
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Thank you both for your closing thoughts. roshanarose, thank you for clarifying - actually I think we opened the back door to learn the stories behind the old tales - and we even opened the front door to peek at the sort of fairy tales tomorrow's children will read. (Not to say that we, the "keepers" will stop spinning the old tales...as long as we can. Consider how many years they've been around!
It really has been a fascinating discussion, full of surprises and new insights. Thanks you all so much. This discussion will now reside in the Archives, complete with links to the many tales which will live there - happily ever after. ;)