-
Talking Heads #11
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online:
bring your ideas and let's discuss.
Our Eleventh Topic:
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
First topic: Today's Commercials - Which attract you? Which do not?
"COMMERCIALS: GRINS OR GROANS" (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1881927,00.html) (Time Magazine)
"Good Commercial Bad Commercial"
(http://goodcommercialbadcommercial.com/)
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/geicocommercial.jpg)
Geico caveman | |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
-
Hi, folks. Our first three-day discussion, suggested by ELLA, is about
commercials. What is your favorite; which one do you really dislike?
What do you think make a good commercial, or a bad one?
My favorite is the Irish dancers in the Folger's commercial. Those
magical dancing feet, with the early morning light through the window
making it appear as though the dancers are in soft, golden mist. Now
that is a commercial worth pausing to watch.
I'll get into my least favorite in my next post.
-
I hate that Geico caveman, so ugly, he truly turns me off. But the Geico, with the little green worm (lizard) is cute and I like the humor in it. I remember humor. Interesting article, BABI, in the heading - I'll quote just a line from it:
"According to a surprising study to be published in the Journal of Consumer Research, commercial interruptions often enhance enjoyment of television, at least for younger viewers. How could that possibly be true? "
Repetitive commercials get rather boring, such as the Progresso young woman, although she does change customers now and then.
Babies!!! No, No, No. Obscene to use children in this way. I'll be interested in what others have to ay.
-
BABI, I have never seen the Folgers commercial. I wonder if it is on the web?
-
I'll get into my least favorite in my next post.
Any commercial that shows people brushing their teeth or eating with an open mouth. Yuck.
And The Great American Pizza Company -- I will never visit them. The message they send is that you can't have fun at a picnic in the park with Mom and Dad; you have to spend megabucks at the Great . . .
And lastly, The Scooter Store. It gives senior citizens a bad name. (Whiny voice), "And it didn't cost me one red cent. Medicare paid it all."
I don't mean to be offensive. I'm all for Medicare paying for durable equipment, but I think there is another to present this product.
-
We always enjoy the Geico commercials with the Gekko (neither worm or lizard, Ella hahaha) My favorite of those is the one with the bobble headed gekkos and then the big blow up one.
I also used to get a real laugh out of the one with Goose, wandering around shouting AFLAK about catastrophe insurance. They were really funny. And the guy who was always in them, looking askance at the goose! OMGosh!
What about the beer commercial, where the truckers take back the beer that they represent? Also funny!
-
Interesting article from Time magazine. Not sure I agree with it, though.
The most annoying commercials are those for car dealers that YELL at you! I heard a news story last night that reported a protest against commercials with volumes louder than the program in which they're inserted. Yay!!!!!!
Another Gripe is multiple commercials bunched together for what seems like hours - but probably lasts a minute or so.
Favorites? I like the Geico gecko and a state banking commercial featuring various Oklahoma towns from founding to current day. I don't know what the technique is called -but what look like sketches in motion fade in the development. Very well done.
However, most of the time I either mute the commercial and work on a crossword puzzle or go "powder my nose"/replenish my glass of iced tea.
I appreciate commercial free performance programs ("Live At Lincoln Center", for instance).
-
I am also a fan of the Geiko ads. Always watch when they come on.
And when the Budweiser beer ads with the Clysdale horses are shown --- watch them every time.
Here's the dream one on Youtube that is so precious....there are other listed on the right hand side to watch.
Enjoy!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4258794138972547179#
-
Here are some Geiko commercials on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip5VOv92bC8&feature=related
-
Callie, yeah, commercial free programming is great! But you don't get that often enough. Someone has to pay for them.
Oh, I love those ghecko ads, Marj - thank you for the youtube links...I love his accent - a stroke of genius. Can you imagine him without the British accent?
I'll tell you which ones I really dislike - those that I don't get - that I have to ask whoever is in the room with me what it meant! It makes me feel - out of it. I'm going to think of one that I've seen recently and try to find it - maybe you can explain it to me!
-
Whatever happened to the energizer bunny? Is he still around?
-
Automobile commercials, one after another. Most hated is the new one for Nissan, where the guy uses a chop saw to cut into the vehicles, as if to show us the mechanics of the car. Blechhh! I also don't like any of them with barely swimsuited gals. There you have to wonder "what they are selling"? I especially like the new one, with the Buddy Holly song "Every day, its a gettin' closer" and the people commute using bumper cars, etc. Now I like it so very much, but do I know what the product is? Not.
-
We rarely notice any commercials. If we're watching a program as it's being broadcast, we mute the commercials. And if we're watching a recorded one, we fast-forward through them.
-
We mute most of the commercials but occasionally catch one. Like the gecko ads also.
-
Insurance companies! I see tthree posted here - Geico, AFLAC and Progresso. Interesting.
I love the Clydesdale horses, MARJ, thanks for those. I'm going to go hunting for a rating service or other. Certainly there is a company who rates the popularity of these ads, their commerical value.
The car ads? You'd think there would be more. I noticed TOMEREADER mentioned Nissan and I know the other night I saw a commercial showing a blue and red car side by side advertising something, I have no idea what?
Isn't that always the case! You watch, but don't know what for? Somebody mentioned that! A lot of money goes into those commercials, I'm sure.
But Geico and Aflac, I remember the companies. Good commercials.
-
Don't have time to look for ratings right now, but car ads - of course, on sports! Any sports!
And where are the food ads, the McDonalds, the Coke ads, and the rest?
-
I have thought of some ads that really offend me - any commercial for prescription medication. That's a good part of why our drug costs are so high. And they make people ask their doctors for medication that might not even be appropriate for their conditions. We asked our family doctor if that ever happened to him. He said it did, frequently. And we asked if patients got angry if he refused to prescribe the medication. His response was a definite yes - and that he'd lost patients because of it. In some countries, it's not permitted to advertise prescription meds on TV.
-
Maryz, just listening to the possible side effects of these drugs is enough to turn me off. Sometimes Bruce and I laugh out loud, especially when they say that death is possible in some cases :P
-
Like most of you, we fast forward or mute commercials in most cases. There are some really funny ones we watch, mostly on sports shows. HBO, et al., and PBS are also favorites. I was watching my recording of the latest Masterpiece Mystery and was astounded, felt betrayed, by a commercial for eharmonydotcom. Blea!
-
Jackie,
I saw that ad and thought I was connected to the wrong channel. What the heck are they doing to their supporters??
I haven't given them any money for a couple of years because they were just talking about their advertisers but now with the eHarmony ad, I am just disgusted with PBS.
I will be watching Wallendar on Sunday night though as we liked that series last year. Very good.
-
I was surprised to see eHarmony on PBS, too. But, hey, we want to see the programs and they don't come free. They have to list their sponsors, but they are usually all at the beginning and then the rest of the programming is commercial free.
Some of the ads get really clever. Now, if there are no closed captions I'm usually lost. But one that I enjoy without them is the Intel ad. Really cool. Starts out with two young lads playing some sort of old fashioned video game and you note a little sister coming downstairs in her ballet tutu. Then throughout the commercial the same two age, and the background changes appropriately. Very well done and thought out in my opinion.
-
I consider commercials/ads and art form. Advertisers hope to create ads that will get you to remember their products. So, which ones to we notice? The very good and the really lousy. Like most of you I like the Geico Gecko. The AFLAC duck is pretty funny. The latest series starting "mayhem" for Allstate is a riot.
-
I like commercials with humor. One I like is for Progresso Insurance (or something like that--you can see how much I pay attention) where two older people, a man and a woman, are talking about getting insurance and the girl promoting it says "You will like it the longer you stay with us, as you get more benefits as time goes on." And the man looks longingly into the eyes of his woman partner and says, "What you're telling us then, is that it gets better with age!" The girl looks embarrassed and says, "Please tell me you're still talking about insurance!"
I hate all the commercials for medications, and it seems as if every other commercial is one of those. Telling us to ask our physician for a particular medicine. And then (as required by law) giving us a long warning list of what we might expect if we use the medicine -- everything up to just short of death. I bet physicians get tired of their patients demanding prescriptions for these medicines.
Marj
-
I love the horses in the Budweiser ads and have worried that the new company that owns them does not seem to value the horses the way the Busch family did..
Love Aflac and Geico as well. Dislike the Progressive girl.. just too toothy for me.
There are certain products that I dislike the commercial enough that I write it down and make sure I dont buy that product..Yes, my doctor also complained about the number of people who come in and demand a product.. I cannot imagine doing that.
Coke used to have great commercials, but have not seen one for a long time that I liked.. I think they skew to a younger group.
Intel has some interesting commercials as well.
-
Actually,I found the 'cavemen' reaction to caveman stereotypes beutifully done They do make a point, too, don't they. So many of our own assumptions are just as offensive.
I think it depends on how the babies are used in a commercial. Talking baby with lips moving oddly I do not like. Babies toddling about and playing while someone talks about diapers is fine. It's always a pleasure to watch the little ones playing
How could that possibly be true?"
I agree, ELLA. Maybe the'younger viewers' are those so young they have a short attention span.
A new development that really aggravates me is some ad from another show dancing across the screen right in the middle of some dramatic moment. Distracting, rude and extremely irritating!
Oh, yes, PEDLN. My current 'I hate that one' is the Omnaris commercial. A
squad of men in glowing white uniforms and purple gloves and hats, lifting a
humongous nasal spray toward a gigantic nostril. UGH!
I, too, found that "I didn't have to pay a cent of my own money." embarrassing. Frankly, everyone of the people in the ad looked as though they could well afford to contribute toward the cost of the chair.
OH, I love that video of the Clydesdales, MARJ. I've never seen that one
before. It's really a prize-winner. Thank you so much for the link.
-
Steph made a point about commercials being directed at a younger group. John will often say about a particular ad - "I don't think that's made for us." Seniors may have more "disposable" money, but we don't seem to spend it as freely. ::)
-
My previous post was getting too long, but I do want to say that what
MARYZ & JOANP had to say about the medical commercials makes an important point, IMO. I would be happy to see a law forbidding such advertisiing here. They do serve one good purpose, tho'. I would think people hearing about all those side effects would conclude the 'cure' is worse than the disease!
Actually, the doctor's aren't alway aware of all those side effects. My daughter, Valerie, bought home new prescription once, and on reading the
list of side effects found that the medicine could possibly cause death with
the first dose. She took it back to the doctor with a plaintive "Why are you trying to kill me?" He, of course, hadn't known of that 'warning', and
immediately had all samples of it taken off his shelves. But how many
people do carefully read all the information on a new med?
-
I consider myself gifted with a good sense of humor but one thing that I hate are commercials. I find 95% of them banal and inane. Honestly I do not watch commercials but rather get up, brush my teeth in the evening, get a load of clothes from the dryer to fold or read during the commercial. I honestly find them insulting! The geiko was funny once- I'm sick of the damned geikos and swat at them on my lanai in frustration. ::)
They insult one's integrity and ingenuity, I fear.
Ella says:"According to a surprising study to be published in the Journal of Consumer Research, commercial interruptions often enhance enjoyment of television, at least for younger viewers. How could that possibly be true? "
That is not the case with my viewing and I resent any implication that that would enhance my enjoyment of a program. Partiularly the Cialis and Viagra or whatever it is that show 2 people enjoying a tub bath together. WHAT???????????
A tub bath in the middle of a field? What is that all about? Oh yeah, so he can be ready at any time. NO!! That is insulting. Nor am I the least bit interested in whether he is ready or not. I'm not! ;D
And Pearson"s right-- hello, the side effects can be deadly! Well thanks for that information & does that negate their culpability because they've advertised that fact? Pearson, check that out with Bruce, will you?
I hate car dealership ads and have written the dealer in Orlando reminding him that HE and his child are the reason I do not care to visit his dealership.
Now I am going to have find one ad that I like (I do like the Clydesdaes as well.)
-
I find 95% of them banal and inane.
I agree, Andy. This morning I was watching various cable news channels, and the commercials, for the most part, were totally BORING. And I cannot, even in my wildest dreams, imagine how watching commercials would improve the overall viewing experience. I think the conclusions of those researchers are flawed.
But you do have to congratulate those who have shown imagination. I used to like the AIG ads, before AIG became a dirty word -- "just watching butterflies, honey, we're with AIG." There's one problem with clever commercials. You don't always note who is doing the advertising. This morning there was one cute ad showing lots of kids with grandma or grampa. I got caught up in the actions of the kids and didn't pay any attention to the product. I finally discovered it was Humana. I also like the ad where everyone in the village is concerned about 3 o'clock -- but what's the product?
-
Yes, yes, I agree with all these dislikes and more......
any commercial for prescription medication - Maryz
scooter ads - Pedlin
commercials that yell - Callie
viagra ads - Andy
Who should we tell?
-
I should add those Fruit of the Loom ads, and ads that show girls with very scanty underwear.
And one of the worst - and I don't know the product - is that man that will not let the little girl on her bicycle ride it out of that square on the floor!! I could slap the guy!
Last night I watched a movie on Fox, I think it was and there was a very different commercial, a black/white commerical, and it was for Levis. Cute!
-
THE CLIO AWARDS - the organiztion that awards the best commerical ads (of all kinds, but there are the TV ads to click on)
http://www.clioawards.com/about/
-
Alf, I couldn't agree more.
Commercials are inescapable, often much louder (deliberately, I'm told) than the program, and impossible to ignore, except for the mute button, or running out for a glass of water. But what is bothersome is the heavy-handed, aggressive, insensitive approach
- like laxatives at dinnertime.
I remember a time when TV ads were enjoyable and made one smile, like the cereal commercial with 3 brothers, sitting over their bowls of a new variety, unwilling to try it, unsure whether they'd like it, and then shifting the task to the youngest, Mikey. Who liked it, of course.
This one was well handled and enjoyable because of the fresh-faced kids, especially "Mikey".
Over time, the admen (adwomen??) switched into a more aggressive mode, and some of what they produced was annoying IMHO - like the laxative commercials mentioned, similarly from the private sphere.
I don't know how many of you remember the Whisk ad "Ring Around the Collar". That was a forerunner of a harder edge. The women libbers seized on it, rightfully so- and successfully. The product is still being sold, I saw, but the offensive byline was dropped.
Amajor disappointment : PBS (!!!) running its own ads, thus effectively reducing the time of each episode. Is that what we expected from PBS ?
What does it signal? A triumph or a defeat ? For what?
Traude
-
Babi said, But how many people do carefully read all the information on a new med?"
They should put that on a commercial in big caps! Not long ago I noticed that a presceiption a druggist had
filled for me was a much stronger dosage than it should have been. They'd made a mistake. I returned it, and changed druggists. Now I very carefully read the labels as well as examine the tablets themselves.
Marj
-
Not long ago, there was a sexist magazine ad to end all sexist ads: Summer's Eve did a full-page ad in Women's Day Magazine giving women advice on how to feel confident enough to ask the boss for a raise. How? By using Summer's Eve, of course!
AlterNet newsletter did an article on it, and you can see the ad if you go there and search for the Summer's Eve ad in Women's Day Magazine.
Marj
-
There were several Alka-Seltzer advertisements in the 70s that were really funny. I'll never forget that guy saying "I can't believe I ate the whole thing". The look on his face said it all. They had a couple more that were funny.
-
Thinking of old ads.. 40 some years ago when my oldest was maybe 4 or so.. he watched a few tv shows..One of the ads was Tony the Tiger... for a cereal.. We used to go to visit my husbands mother on Long ISland and driving up the Jersey turnpike was the oil storage tanks and on one of the tanks.. a long tiger tail.. The four year old was enchanted and recited Tony the Tiger and most of the ad each time he saw it.. So.. maybe we are just the wrong age group for the ads.
-
It is a lot easier to find commercials one hates, isn't it, ALF? But there
are some good ones out there. Which raises the question: "What, in your
opinion, makes a commercial good or bad?"
Who should we tell?
Good question, ELLA. I think ALF has the right idea.
Let the SPONSOR know his ads aren't helping! And thanks for the CLIO links.
I knew there was some outfit that judged commercials and couldn't find it.
Oh, definitely, STEPH. Different products are carefully targeted for
specific age groups. Of course, some adult ads seem to assume we have the
brains of a 9-year-old.
This is the last day to speak out on this subject. Tomorrow we begin
another subject,..PAIN...suggested by PEDLN. Here's a link to get you thinking, and Pedln will
have another, also. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/books/review/Romm-t.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=pain%20chronicles&st=cse (long, isn't it?)
-
I've just had a commercial come up on the TV that I don't like - all the BP "aren't we really wonderful?" ads. If they'd spend that money on helping the people hurt by the oil spill instead of on the ads, there'd be more money to go around.
-
We can shorten that link
Pain Management (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/books/review/Romm-t.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=pain%20chronicles&st=cse)
You're right about that, MaryZ
Now, I hope before this is over, someone can tell me what happened at that wedding -- the ad by the Royal Bank of Scotland. No captions. So much concern. Did someone else step up to be the groom.
Are there jingles running through your head? What are they advertising?
"a little bit'll do ya, a little bit'll do ya" ---- what?
-
Talking Heads #11
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online:
bring your ideas and let's discuss.
Our Eleventh Topic:
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
Third topic: Modern Miracles: Can We Live Without The Advances Of Modern Medicine?
Advances of Modern Medicine (http://bigthink.com/ideas/18682)
Modern Miracles (http://dailyreckoning.com/the-medical-miracles-of-2010/)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/modernmed.jpg)
| |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
-
BABI, I see your question. I suppose it depends on the person, the age maybe? I don't like scanty underwear ads but then I'm the kind of person who is embarrased to look at those same underwear in stores. And don't even mention going shopping in Victoria's Secret (however, I do llike their lotions and sometimes sneak in to get a tube or bottle).
A good commercial (as we must have them) would be something clever or funny - I think we have mentioned a few.
I was thinking this morning that we don't see many ads using animals.
-
I thought it was a little dab of Bryl Cream - hair stuff for guys.
I like ads that 1) don't yell, 2) don't talk or move too fast, 3) present the product without fake "experts" (never mind the disclaimers - don't dress up an actor like a doctor if he/she isn't one), 4) are colorful, and 5) present useful information along with the costumes and funny characters.
I do enjoy the ones that make me chuckle.
If I'm becoming interested in a product or service, I will notice - and take notes (if I can catch the information quickly enough).
-
One other thought just came to me - I don't look at ads in print publications (newspaper, magazines, etc.) either. ::)
-
Callie, I remember it as Bryl Cream also (sticky stuff to keep that hair in place). I believe that my husband used it years ago. He still has plenty of hair but you wouldn't know as he shaves it all off. :)
Their jingle (from Wikipedia)
Bryl-Creem, a little dab'll do ya,
Use more,only if you dare,
But watch out,
The gals will all pursue ya,--
They'll love to RUN their fingers through your hair.
Those were the days.
-
You'll wonder where the yellow went
When you brush your teeth with Pepsodent
Are there any jingles these days, or are they considered so old school?
-
Am I remembering correctly?
Rinso White, Rinso White,
Happy little washday song...
-
For an advertiser a good ad is one that gets the consumer to remember their name and/or product in a positive way. At best, poor ads don't do that. At worst, poor ads leave a negative effect on the consumer. Cute and clever sometimes ends up in the poor category because people remember the advertisement but not what is being advertised.
I am with you regarding prescription ads. I also don't like sanitary pad advertising on TV. They are okay in women's magazines.
Anyone who is interested in the advertising and the advertising industry might be interested in looking at http://www.adweek.com/aw/index.jsp Their sister site concentrates on brands. http://www.brandweek.com/bw/index.jsp I used to work on their publications before they found another printer. There was always found something interesting to read in them.
-
Dont think I have ever seen the Royal Bank ad..
Now as to pain management. That is quite the question here in Florida since we are noted as the state that has way too many pain clinics, that are basically a way to obtain drugs for people.. They ask for cash only, do not really examine people and simply dish out oxycontin, etc. The state is trying to enact different laws, so the legitimate pain clinics can function, but the phonies cant. OF course in south Florida we already have so much medicare fraud as to be on all of the lists for phoneys.
I can remember after the accident, being asked over and over to judge my pain by 1-10.. It always sort of stopped me..Is 10 way past handling?? Is 1 important.. I tended to guess 5 or so mostly, although during the run up of the compartment syndrome, I went.. 15 when the leg started to swell and would not stop. They gave me a heck of a lot of morphine and it did not even cut the pain.. My only experience with something that was like waves of heat and fury and caused me to circle down to a small window of agony and noone else there. Whew.. dont want to do that again.
-
What is pain? Our next three-day topic is from a book review, The Pain Chronicles. The author of this book suffered for years with chronic pain from a spinal condition. When she was asked to write an article about pain her research became an obsession. She raises many questions. Does pain have a purpose? Is pain punishment for sin? Do our doctors know how to treat pain? Can pain be cured with love?
Note: Within the article there is also a link to an actual excerpt from the book.
Steph, you raise some real questions there -- and heaven help us, I hope you don't ever have to go there again.
Is 10 way past handling?? Is 1 important
Are there any answers?
-
I used to know how to do that, PEDLN, but I've forgotten. Please, don't
wake up any jingles in my head. It's so hard to shut them up again! ::)
My thanks to our 'Book Administrator' JOANP, for the great headings. She is keeping us nicely
sorted out. This can be a very personal subject, can't it? I tend to ignore the minor stuff. As
STEPH says, is 1 or 2 important? I think most of us wouldn't even be talking to the doctor for
that sort of pain. I will make an exception for persistent, unexplained minor pain. I't's probably wise to find out what's going on, just in case it's something serious.
-
AHA- pain and the management of- This is a difficult topic because i believe that each of us suffer some type of pain, either physical, mental, spiritual or social. Of course the severity of the pain and the duration is what determines how we can best handle the pain and/or how badly does it affect our quality of life? Aye, there's the rub, isn't it? Steph's pain was not only of the acute physical type but the horror of the mental anguish she had to endure with the loss of her husband. Her quality of life was totally altered with her accident.
I fear that it is difficult enough to manage pain of an acute nature but I also hold that chronicity of pain can be over whelming. A chronic anguish or misery wears one down. It never goes away or abates. Many people suffer from diseases such as fibromyalgia and their entire life changes before a diagnosis is even made.
So, the question here is how best do we manage the pain? Is there an answer to that question? What one person may define as painful another may see as merely annoying or a "twinge."
IMO the person needs the pain management. Should it be palliative or aggressive? Is he/she being listened to?
One needs the proper physician to assist with these decisions and again, I fear that they are few and far between. We need to be listened to before we can be treated. An alloted 15 minutes for consultation does not fit the bill.
You can see that this is another hot little topic for me. For those of you suffering, I wish you all the strength and fortitude that God will give to help you.
-
Here's a few suggestions for handling pain from a survivor of chronic pain:
http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/07/controlling_pain_where_there_i.html
Having put that up, I read the article and was pleased to see that prayer and meditation are mentioned. I read an article in our local paper about prayer working. Meditation is really a good tool to have available when pain knocks you down. Its a good thing to learn for many of life's problems.
I am unable to retain opoids for more than three minutes so I guess I won't get addicted to those. Recently, after traveling to NYC and WV and back to NY state, I had a really sore shoulder. I use a special salve or cream for knees but it was't approved for any other joint problems. On looking it up, I found that some drs were prescribing it for other joints. Do you know that just the awareness of its availability for my shoulder alleviated the pain?? Now what's that all about?? Does time really heal all wounds??
-
Sometimes, for me, knowing the source of the pain seems to reduce it, or increase my tolerance. Anxiety seems to contribute to the pain.
I have had chronic pain, combination of arthritis and carpal tunnel, and it's demoralizing, depressing, to be in constant pain that overrode my other thoughts and activities. Fortunately, for some reason, the pain decreased on its own so that most of the time I can ignore it, taking the occasional over-the-counter pain medication. I can go weeks without needing even one ibuprofen. So I would say a good day is a 1 or 2, the worst days for me were probably 7-8, I would reserve 10 for something more serious.
-
Annie-
Does time really heal all wounds??
I don't know about that, but I do know that time wounds all heels. ::)
-
A stiff neck neck that persisted for weeks was diagnosed as arthritis. for a while I wore a cervical collar and it was amazing, no pain. Over the years more of the spine became involved and now I take three 800mg Ibuprofen a day, for the pain and for its healing properties. Stll I have pain. can't ride in the car for long periods anymore and must use a gel seat pad at times. It never gets very bad but there are flare-ups. We had a clever chart for patients to measure their pai. It was a face, drawn 10 times, with increasingly obvious signs of pain in its grimaces. Much easier to pick how your pain makes you feel when looking at such graphic displays. And it works for all languages! Scroll down to see the faces: http://tinyurl.com/22jmpbw
-
I h ave a sister in law who is a professional in handling and teaching ADHD. We were discussing them and she told me that one of the hallmarks of the children is a higher sensitivity to pain.. I thought that was fascinating.. It seems because of their hyper awareness, they feel pain quickly and respond to it. So pain is subjective.. I know my husband would not admit to pain until he had been having problems for weeks.. Something male, I suspect.
-
A chronic anguish or misery wears one down.
Absolutely, ALF. I can bear
quite a bit of pain if I know it's temporary. A chronic pain, even though
less in intensity, is much more to be dreaded.
One's mental attitude does make a great difference. When I was quite young
I discovered I could mentally put a minor pain in a 'box' and confine it
there. The rest of me felt fine, so I could go on about my activities readily.
Unfortunately, I don't find that works for me anymore.
I do know that tension aggravates pain, so anything that tends to calm
and relax does help. Prayer and meditation have been shown to be effective
in many studies.
Indeed, STEPH. You remind me of those commercials showing men being knocked for
a loop, obviously injured, leaping up and insisting "I'm fine! I'm fine!" Part of the 'tough guy'
syndrome, I suppose. ;)
-
When I was nineteen years old I woke up and couldn't get out of bed and had trouble breathing. A doctor prescribed over the phone and said it was muscle spasms. Whatever he prescribed got me out of bed but I have had pain in my muscles for the rest of my life. Aspirins sufficed for years, plus exercise, and keeping busy. Prednisone helped for awhile but you can't take it long. Being pregnant helped and you can't do that long either. But now with plavix I can only take tylenol which isn't as good in my opinion for muscle pain. At times, the muscles swell, heat and ice help. Exercise helps. I've been to all kinds of doctors, any kind, you name it, all kinds of physical therapy. The muscle pain just will not go away.
It is exhausting!
-
Ella, that sounds like it might be some kind of arthritis or maybe even fibromyalgia.
I agree that sometimes a temporary "fixable" pain, even severe, is more tolerable that a permanent chronic pain.
I think the medical profession has become more aware that ignoring pain as just "something to bear" makes treating the disease or injury that might be causing the pain more difficult and longer-lasting. I don't think severe or long-lasting pain should ever be necessary.
-
Hopefully not too far off topic.. But I changed vets last year. My new vet believes that animals should be suffer pain.. Whenever he does anything to the dogs, he sends me home with a few pain pills.. He believes strongly that they get better fast with no pain.. I find it interesting.. But faithfully give them the pills..
Chronic pain is a sentence to so many people. I had an aunt with horrible bursitus in her knees. I knew years ago watching her, which days she was easy and which she was not.. In the eyes of course.
I also wish away minor pain.. Just sort of concentrate on my mantra image.. Lovely blue water , floating on it.. and can control small types of pain.
-
Oh, ELLA, you have my deepest sympathy. That is really hard.
MARYZ, you are right about that. Even before I retired, the agencies
inpecting and certifying hospitals and nursing homes had begun paying
close attention to a facility's pain management for it's patients.
Distraction also helps with minor pains. If I am engrossed in some
activity I can ignore and forget minor pains. Which is especially fortunate
as we grow older and more of those small minor pains crop up.
While I agree that people can get better faster with no pain, I would take
one exception to that. If an injury is healing, and the patient is supposed
to keep off that limb, they are more likely to do so if some pain occurs
when they disobey. Another instance where "I'm fine!" can get you in trouble. ;)
-
But sometimes "I'm fine" is okay. If I sit too long with my legs under a table (playing cards, no doubt) it hurts one knee when I get up. But after I'm up and stretch, I'm really fine. Sometimes it's hard to know when someone needs your concern and when they don't.
That's interesting about the vet, Steph, and I don't doubt that animals in pain could bring up many comments.
-
Talking Heads #11
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online:
bring your ideas and let's discuss.
Our Eleventh Topic:
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
Third topic: Modern Miracles: Can We Live Without The Advances Of Modern Medicine?
Advances of Modern Medicine (http://bigthink.com/ideas/18682)
Modern Miracles ~ 2010 (http://dailyreckoning.com/the-medical-miracles-of-2010/)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/modernmed.jpg)
| |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
-
Good morning, all. We are about to segue from 'Pain' to 'Modern Miracles' in medicine. It
wasn't so long ago that my brother had open heart surgery for blocked arteries. Long operation, painful recovery. Then about a month ago my younger daughter had blocked arteries dilated quickly and successfully, quick recovery. What's not to like?
Well, check Annie's links and tell us what you think.
-
In these two links we are offered a look into one journalist's opinion of today's modern technology and how far should we go to continue a person's life and another journalist's opinions of what is about how to increase your stock portfolio in the field of medicine. He refers to it a Modern Miracles.
Like Babi, I have probably seen many modern medicine miracles in just last few years. Due to my husband who has managed to have many surgeries and implants done to prolong and add to the quality of his life. He is now sporting an LVAD which is a heart pump to help his heart continue to work as it was designed. He runs on batteries! He also has a bi-polar pacemaker which was installed 5 or 6 yrs ago. It also helps his heart work properly. Buuuut, he is not getting any younger, at age 76, and how much longer will the medical field and medicare keep him up and running since the cost of all these miracles is going up and up??
According to the link in the first article, medicare makes a decision on whether we can live a quality life for a certain amount of money per year. They used to use the figure of $50,0000 per year but with the technology that is out there today, its going to cost much more per year and the scientist who wrote the paper says from $61,000 to $488,000 as what it could become. And this is quality life, also.
Can our medical miracles keep happening with the cost going up and up??
Are any of you fascinated by the many miracles that might happen this year?? How about the stem cells that you produce being moved to your sick organ and growing a new one??
Another question I have: When we are chronically ill for many years and the doctors come up with a cure for something else we are enduring, how do they make a decision to use this new procedure or medication??
-
I never cease to marvel at the pain relief after joint replacements - even though I've not had one.
John and I have often commented on the fact that technology in medicine is advancing faster than society's ability (or willingness) to pay for it.
-
Costlly, I am sure, MARY and ANN, and it will only get worse, which makes me shudder to think that only the wealthy will be living longer and runnning the country. Oh, certainly not.
From the article above:
"So rather than relying on some outside treatment, the future of medicine will be in figuring out how to make your body heal itself and rejuvenate itself. No surgery. No invasive procedure of any kind. It’s this kind of promise that makes me believe 2010 will be the dawning of an amazing age of medical marvels."
That doesn't sound expensive. Take a piece of skin, cells, and patch them elsewhere on the same body?
Good article, Ann, and I know what a miracle your husband is, he's a battery-operated wonderful guy who is painting their bathroom. Amazing.
-
I say go for it!
When we can put men indefinitely on the moon why not shoot for modern miracles on earth?
-
I think the idea of using a patch after one gets the flu. About the size of the bandaid, it makes the flu go away. Amazing!
I also am very interested in the company which is working on spinal cord repairs. Remember the man who played Superman?? He was so sure that there was a cure out there for him and all his fellow spinal cord patients.
"Cells from the nose may help spinal injury victims walk again." Fox News explains. "It's a relatively simple procedure to take them from the patient, grow more of them in the laboratory and then insert them back into the same person."
-
I k now that my compartment syndrom surgery was considered risky and imperative to save my leg. I was in too much shock and pain to participate in any of the discussions, but my sons stepped up and said they knew I would want to save my leg..Then a complication arose with something in the artery, but again they said go ahead. I owe them my life and the fact that my leg works perfectly and I am back to normal.. So I guess I am a modern miracle of sorts.
-
We have a friend who had compartment syndrome in his leg, immediately after having cancer surgery and it took him a long time to recover from it. I think, Steph, your having it 20 yrs later than he did, that the progress in treating it has made you a medical miracle. God bless your sons and their awareness of your wishes to save your leg or any other body parts.
-
Making your body heal itself! Now that does sound perfect, doesn't it? Oh, brave New World!!
AdoAnnie asks an excellent question. "When we are chronically ill for many years and the doctors come up with a cure for something else we are enduring, how do they make a decision to use this new procedure or medication??
I suppose the first consideration would be, how risky is it? There are medicines out there today
that have the possibility of killing the patient with the first dose! (No, I'm not kidding.) Another
question would be, how available is it? Like transplants, if it's not widely available, decisions
would have to be made as to which patients could best benefit from it.
There are so many options available to prolong, and improve the quality of, our lives. It
would have to be a very personal decision as to when one would say, "Enough, already!"
While I'm here, would you posters give some thought to any subject or article that has
caught your attention recently. We have one more on tap after this one, and by 10/13 we
will need another one....or two, or three....
-
I think of the advances in heart surgery alone and know there are so many people living that would have died even 10 years ago. Amazing when you consider. I love the idea of using your own body to heal other parts of your body. The more natural, the better.
I do feel that doctors have gotten over enthusiastic about the MRI and CT scans.. Too much xray..I tell the dentist now that unless I am having a problem, I would prefer no xrays.. I get a yearly mammo.. but because of the accident and all of the CT scans and MRI, etc, I am trying to call a halt to anything like that unless truly necessary.
-
I guess we can't blame the doctors for loving anything that gives them a
better look at a problem. IF there is a problem. Unfortunately
it's also an easy way to run up a bill unnecessarily, just 'fishing'. There
have been times I've opted for a 'conservative' approach to treatment, at least to begin with. If that doesn't work, then we can go for
the heavy-duty probing.
This is the last day for commentary on modern medical miracles. It
occurs to me that 'quality of life' applies to more than improved old age.
There are many physical problems that plague the lives of younger people as well. I would think that learning intervention at the cellular level would
work wonders in that area as well.
-
IMO, a lot of those extra tests are done so that the doc can forestall any malpractice claims by saying that he/she checked everything possible. It's a CYA (cover your a..) situation.
-
Maryz, last week - or the week before, my husband had arthroscopic surgery for a torn meniscus in his knee. Two days later his entire leg was swollen and I made him call the doctor, just to see if this is normal with this time of operation. The nurse set him up for a doppler ultrasound in the hospital, without even talking to the doctor about it. My H. told her he didn't feel that was necessary and she became very short with him, telling him that the doctor would not be responsible if he had a blood clot and died. So he went in - with difficulty, on crutches...had the ultrasound - and it was negative. What would you have done?
ps. We haven't received that bill yet!
-
JOANP, I would have had the ultrasound. I know many procedures seem unnecessary but dying from a blood clot would also be unnecessary, haha
How do we know? The medical profession should.
Was the nurse a NP? They have the authority to do many things that ordinarily only a doctor would do. Times have changed and the NP's I have dealt with have been very good.
-
JoanP, I don't know - probably because of the immediacy of the problem, I would've had the ultrasound (like Ella said).
In general, I don't think we (or at least I) don't have enough knowledge to decide whether or not a lot of these tests are really necessary - we have to trust the experts. Tough decisions.
-
JoanP, it the problem was bad enough for you to call the doctor, then you should do what the doctor (or nurse) says.
-
Talking Heads #11
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online:
bring your ideas and let's discuss.
Our Eleventh Topic:
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
Fourth topic: What Do You Know about Islam?
Islam: Questions & Answers (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/islam-questions-answers/story?id=11747416) with Diane Sawyer
What Is Islam?
Why Do Radicals Feel Violence Is Justified?
Is Western Culture at Odds with Islam?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/islam1.jpg)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/islam2.jpg) | |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
Well, we did - and fortunately the test was clear, no sign of clotting. I think Bruce's problem was that no one looked at the swelling before ordering the test. The only one who saw him was the technician. It was at my insistance that he call the doctor...but I did think a doctor would take a look before ordering the test.
-
I think I would want to know why the nurse felt like that unless she was an NP.. Then I would have trusted her.
-
Our Eleventh Topic:
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
Fourth topic: What Do You Know about Islam?
Islam in America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9fW9jPnjgE)
Islam: Questions & Answers (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/islam-questions-answers/story?id=11747416) with Diane Sawyer
What Is Islam?
Why Do Radicals Feel Violence Is Justified?
Is Western Culture at Odds with Islam?
Islam in America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9fW9jPnjgE)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/islam1.jpg)
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/islam2.jpg) | |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
-
I listened to the audio with Diane Sawyer (I think it is just Part I?) and then I was disconnected when the commerical came on. Is there a Part II?
The program is on American Muslims, all well and good. I see little girls being educated with boys; little girls speaking up, but only in America! Not so in Arab countries.
This site tells another story. Extremism in Pakistan. Be sure to listen to all of it as near the end you will see the beautiful school for young wealthy boys who are very educated, particularly in Western culture, and are the leaders of extremism in the country believing that America is attempting to colonize Arab countries by controlling them economically. That's a new one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9fW9jPnjgE
-
Good question, ELLA. I wish Mahlia were here to address it, but she has lab appointments this
morning. I should have alerted her much earlier as to the sceduled date of this discussion, but
it is moving fast. My bad.
The extremism in Pakistan does illustrate a point Mahlia has often made. The social mores
and customs often have more to do with the country/area than strictly with Islam. People tend
to adapt their religious beliefs to fit with the ways their society has interacted for generations,
..even centuries.
I have a quote from the Qu'ran which I thought would be useful at this starting point.
"Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians...and (all) who believe in God and the last day and work
righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." The Qur'an, 2:62
-
Babi - an interesting quote. What struck me when reading it -
"Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians...and (all) who believe in God and the last day and work
righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." The Qur'an, 2:62
It sounds as if each religion has a seperate Lord, doesn't it?
Ella, see if this link fills in the missing parts: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/islam-questions-answers/story?id=11747416
-
I know very little about Islam. Last year, we did a one-day Elderhostel at a mosque in Atlanta. It was most interesting, but of course, very superficial. I've know only one Muslim - a woman who was in our swim class for about a year. She was a charming person, from Turkey, but we didn't discuss religion at all.
-
MaryZ, I know very little about Islam, also. And it's interesting you mention your one Muslim acquaintance. The only one I know is also from Turkey, and a good friend of my DIL. She is married to an American, has two grown sons, and does not wear the traditional Muslim dress, but dresses like any other 40-something American woman. She and my DIL also swim together regularly, but she would not swim during Ramadan because she fasted between sunrise and sunset -- and no food or liquid passes the lips. I thought that was very impressive dedication.
-
pedln, my friend also did not swim during Ramadan. Her husband worked for a US company and was here in Chattanooga for 2-3 years, and lived as "normal" Americans (whatever that is). When they were transferred from here, she was afraid they would be sent to Saudi Arabia, and she didn't want to be in that repressive culture (for women). In the event, they were transferred to Singapore. We heard from her for a while, but nothing for a number of months now.
-
I am not acquainted with any Muslims and don't know anything about the "structure" of their mosques.
Some churches are assigned a pastor, some churches "call" (hire) their own, some pastors establish an independent church - sometimes affliated with a denomination, sometimes not.
How does a mosque acquire an Imam? Is the process different in the Middle East than in America?
-
We were surprised to learn that each mosque is an independent congregation. It's usually started by a single man or a group. That founding group is the governing body of the mosque, manages the budget, and chooses the imam.
-
Okay, Maryz, what duties does an imam have? Is he a full-time employee of the mosque?
Yes, we need MAHLIA here.
JOANP, I'LL try your site now. My daughter and I saw a movie today called CAIRO TIME. A married American woman went to Cairo to meet her husband there as he was an employee of some sort for the United Nations. I do hope that American tourists show a bit more sense than she did!!
-
JoanP, I've seen that much of the video, I thought there might be more.
-
Don't know the answer to that, Ella. As you say, we need Mahlia.
-
Any insight we can glean about Islam will be welcome, though 3 days' worth of discussion is unlikely o produce them. But it mat point a way of how to gain further knowledge,.
If I may, newer readers here may not be aware that we have explored the subject before in the Books in early 2004, as we discussed the book
Islamic Threat : Myth or Reality ?, by John Esposito,Professor of Islamic Studies. Ann was the DL.. Persian/Mahlia among many others was a participant, and so was I.
The discussion is recorded in our Archives.
Now, six years later, might be a good time to check where we are, here.
Traude
-
I very seldem come into this forum. Like most people in US and other countries have never been taught anything about Islam or what the Quran says.
I just have one thing. Over the centuries other religions have changed. Judism, Christianity even Budist. Islam seems to have stood still.
ONe can't live by what was written in any of the books. This is the problem I find in Islam.
Women have to be given more rights. Not having to be so covered up, Freedom to do many of the things that men do. Think for themselves. Allowed to be independent.
I believe that no G-D wants them to live the way that some countries still have them live.
-
Home again, finally, and happy to join in this discussion RE Islam. We also watched Diane Sawyer's recent program and found it interesting, certainly a source for bringing an understanding to those who know noting about the religion of Islam or its adherents worldwide. And just like in Judaism and Christianity (the two other Abrahamic religions), the countries and cultures in which Islam is practiced ALSO plays a strong role in HOW Muslims adhere to their faith (or NOT).
Hi Traude - I surely remember that discussion RE Islam several years ago. And if it is still archived, it certainly might help folks who are not at all familiar with Islam or perhaps who would like to enrich their knowledge.
JEANNE - your comment "like most people in the US and other countries have never been taught anything about Islam," is almost identical to a lecture topic I taught some years ago. In presenting the research for the project, I was able to verify through several sources that indeed there are numerous folks in the USA and other countries who DO have some knowledge of Islam, although many do NOT have the intense background to help them understand the broad areas that pertain to the culture, ethnicities, suburban/urban/country/village practices which commonly play a major role in how Islam is practiced and how adherents conduct themselves in relation to their faith.
Since moving from the metropolitan Washington DC area to the American South (about 20 miles NE of Charlotte, NC), I have come to realize that this is a part of the USA where folks REALLY do not understand Islam. However, there are MAJOR Muslim communities throughout the USA. Detroit comes readily to mind. And the PARADE magazine in today's Sunday paper features a major article on the increase in Muslims in - of all places - Lincoln, Nebraska! There are large Islamic communities in New York and up and down the California coastline. (NOTE: Many of the relatives of the late Shah of Iran - who are Muslim - live in that area, as well as in New York). Muslims can be found in large numbers in many American cities and some in much smaller areas (like Lincoln), since the relocation of Arab Muslims from Iraq to the USA.
Has Islam "stood still" over the centuries? I don't think so, unless one focuses on the enormously orthodox, centuries old Islamic customs in Saudi Arabia (which has a high level of well educated citizens, although that may not be well known in the West either unless one is familiar with Saudis). For example, the Muslims of Turkey and Azerbaijan (a former Soviet Republic) are "reaching out" to industry to improve their citizens' livelihood. And in doing so, they have become less traditional. Each Islamic mosque is NOT the same, just like each Jewish shul or Christian church is NOT the same. Christianity and Judism have moved ahead and so has Islam in many world regions. Sometimes the congregations have broken away from their historical past (i.e., Jews for Jesus comes readily to mind) and the more profoundly Christian congregations (especially in the American deep South, which have had a history of deep-seated conservatism) have revised many of their practices, while still maintaining their central belief in God.
I've always been amazed why non-Muslims are so focused on the dress of Muslimas (female Muslims). Covering one's head is simply a form of modesty, as is NOT wearing reveling clothing.
I wonder if the same folks who seem who put-off by a Muslima's head scarf would also feel uncomfortable about an Amish woman's head covering? Or a Russian village woman covering her head with a bandana? Or African women and their often VERY elaborate head coverings?
Thanks very much for posting your range of comments, as they are excellent and give us an opportunity to share our thoughts and - hopefully - learn more together. Another BIG issue for non-Muslim Americans (particularly) to understand Muslimas is to realize that in several world regions in which Islam is predominant (the aforementioned Saudi Arabia and the Far East come readily to mind) women have shown that they can be well educated and use their education and interests in the business sector. There are numerous Saudi women who have created very successful businesses in which they serve as the Founder and President (or CEO, CFO, etc). They are active in Stock Exchanges, moving their funds worldwide in response to the actions of the markets, and hire, fire, train and promote other women in their companies.
IRAN in the time of the late Shah was another world region where Muslimas were enormously successful in business, education, science. I've known many Iranian women who were educated in the USA and Europe, returning to their home country and developing successful (and VERY lucrative) businesses, while marrying, raising a family and continuing to contribute to worthy philanthropic causes.
Unfortunately, what we in the USA hear and see on the international news often focuses on village women in the Middle East, Central and South Asia, and the Far East who are NOT well educated, often totally illiterate and abused regularly by men in their families. DIANE SAWYER's recent program gave voice to some Muslimas who have been successful and happy. And although her program did not delve into too many situations due to the lack of time, it did give a brief overview of some of the Muslimas who reach out to the world. Even though they might often still prefer to cover their hair when doing so!
-
HI ELLA - who establishes and runs an Islamic mosque? Good question and I think MARYZ has given the first answer. The establishment of a mosque anywhere in the world obviously comes from the desire to create a house of worship. Mosques can include classes on Islam (as many do, especially the VERY large ones) or small discussion groups about the religion attended by only a few. Larger mosques offer many opportunities to their members (and visitors): classes on a range of topics for children, teenagers, young adults, married and single folks, those who have specific goals or educational issues in mind (i.e., serving the poor in the community, cooking, language studies, business opportunities, etc.) In the latter respect, they are like dealing with organizations focused on their communities, NOT just a place to worship. But then that is also true of many of the large churches and their range of activities, NOT just worship.
In terms of creating a worship community, funding the building costs, hiring teachers or speakers on specific topics in the range of classes, there are Boards of Directors (or Management) made up of members of the mosque, just like the Boards one finds in most houses of worship. And the larger the congregation, the larger (and more diverse) the "management" Boards usually are.
If possible, skip the focus on womens' headscarves and realize that Muslimas OFTEN have a very strong voice (although NOT always public) in many of the areas of management. They discuss issues among themselves, pass those ideas onto the various Board representatives and often contribute from their own funds to "make things happen." With older women, this vital role in the mosque's business is done quietly. With younger women, it can be REALLY LOUD and directly to the point!
HI CALLIE - Try to think of Islamic Imams who are active in very large mosques, especially those which are ancient or affiliated with universities (like the main ones in Cairo, Egypt) as you would of a Christian SENIOR Pastor who is responsible for a large church. There are Senior Imams and those newer to the responsibility; they work strongly with senior male members of the community, while often their wives are equally as much involved with the womens' groups and issues. In the much smaller gatherings - like in a village or rural farm area - they may spend more time working on their farms and only attend to the mosque business on a limited time.
Some Imams are extremely well educated, others not. Away from the mosque, they may give the impression of a well-to-do businessman. And some who formerly thought they were "called" to serve God and the community, will occasionally find that they are not comfortable in the public role and refocus on some other way to serve the community.
Unlike when Jewish congregations have separated into different styles of worship and often appointed female Rabbis, I've never met or heard of a female Imam. Muslimas often host studies on the Holy Qur'an in their homes or in classes for other women. They also participate in public gatherings with women of other faiths to discuss their beliefs and the core of Islam or to answer questions about Islamic customs, along with the role of women in Islam. And of course, many Muslimas are teachers, often in classes for female students. Although in the USA there are Muslimas who teach at all levels in public and private institutions from grade schools through university. Some wear the head scarfs, while others do not. And, of course, there are Muslims in various scientific fields, working alongside men in the labs and classrooms in the West, but NOT in the conservative countries.
Hi PEDLN - RE your comment about your friend fasting during the Holy month of Ramadan - I have often fasted during the month and realize that for those of us NOT accustomed to doing so, each year can be a trial, when one is temped to eat or drink. The core purpose of fasting to experience first-hand how those who cannot afford food feel when they cannot eat, but it is ALSO a way to cleanse your system and focus on God and His love and care for those less fortunate. Some folks are not successful at fasting - just liike any topic that pertains to us humans - and others are absolutely devout. My husband's father in Egypt is 95 years old and he still fasts - nothing, absolutely nothing goes past his lips during the daytime.
Hi JOANP - Same God for Jews, Christians and Muslims? Yup! The God of Abraham. In all the many years that I have read the Holy Scriptures of each religion, lectured and taught classes to enhance the understanding of these religions in the USA, Iran and even China (of all places!), this question ALWAYS is one of the first to arise. But in reading the 3 holy Books side by side, it is clear that there are MANY similarities! They are NOT word-for-word similar, and each translation from the original Arabic into English (or any other language) has to be appreciated for the variances which the translators may make given the dates when the translations took place and whether the footnotes are extensive or not.
I've always thought of the differences I've noticed in reading the Holy Bible in an edition that was printed in Olde English or Latin or German vs what we have to read from in 2010. Languages change over the centuries (decades?) and the translations of old are NOT the same as what we can purchase today.
Equally, it is important to understand that someone from a village background who is totally illiterate in his/her own language (let alone ours) will be able to grasp ONLY what he/she has heard from a verbal presentation, NOT read themselves. And that makes a huge difference.
I'm beginning to get sleepy, so I'd better sign off now. Hope the above posts have helped to bring some more understanding about the topic.
Mahlia
-
I dont mind the head scarves, but the full burqua.. Horrible and looks like a captive on the streets. I know quite a lot about Amish and Mennonites.. They wear a tiny organdy cap mostly with braids under it.. The mennonites,, not even that,, but they can if they want to..
I dislike the separation of men and women in rules and conduct. I know how uncomfortable I was in Cairo when we ate in restaurants other than the hotel. I was close to the only women ever and there were no groups of women anywhere.. just men. I know.. I know. they meet at home or at other womens places, but I love the freedom of the US to go and do whatever I want. I had a doctor who was a Hindu( female) once.. and she actually called herself Mrs. Doctor. which struck me as odd.
I noten on TV, that the current Queen in one of the countries.. did not even wear the head covering when interviewed on TV. A beautiful woman, well educated and outspoken, but I think quite rare mostly.
-
Thank you for the care you took in responding to the points posed here in this discussion, Mahlia. It seems that it is not so easy to dismiss the burqua and its significance, however -
Steph, there are more and more women clad in the burqua in our area here in Northern VA. In some stores, maybe it was in Michael's or a Tuesday Morning, the entire staff was wearing the head scarf. You can't help but notice the increase - the sheer numbers of women wearing them.
Traudee...I went to the Archives and found a link to The Islamic Threat (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/IslamicThreat.html) discussed on SeniorNet in 2004. Although the font of the original discussion is really tiny, you can enlarge the comments on your own computer, I think. Also, there are quite a few links to articles on Islam that appear in the heading of that discussion - they appear in large, legible font...
-
Thank you, Mahlia, for your thoughtful and informative answers to our questions.
If a mosque needed an Imam for whatever reason (death, dissatisfaction with the current one, etc.), what would the process be to acquire one?
For anyone...
Do you think the discomfort that some of us feel about head scarves, burquas, etc. is because we resist the idea of women acting subservient to men?
-
HURRAY!! Mahlia is back! Do read that post carefully. It's chock-full of
information. She's answered a lot of questions I thought I was going to have to
struggle with. :)
Interesting questions, CALLIE. Here is a link on the structure of a mosque:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0859779.html
And here's a good link about Imams:
http://www.collegeboard.com/csearch/majors_careers/profiles/careers/100642.html
You're right, of course, TRAUDE. There is no way we can cover so immense a subject
as Islam in a three-day read-and-discuss format. It can only help, tho', to raise
and answer as many questions as we can, adding that much to our store of knowledge and
understanding, at least. There are many good books on the subject, and I hope some
others may be recommended here as well.
MAHLIA's remarks reminded me of the old, misinformed, rabidly anti-Catholic tirades
we would sometimes hear from Protestant pulpits 2-3 generations ago. Now, we all too
often hear misinformation coming from our pulpits regarding Islam. Sadly, there are
preachers who 'follow the party line' and really know very little about it.
-
Thank you, MAHLIA, would that we could sit around in comfort with each other and discuss the subject in person with you. And possibly you could bring a Muslimas (is that what you are calling a female Muslim?) to talk to us.
Callie's question in RIGHT ON!
"Do you think the discomfort that some of us feel about head scarves, burquas, etc. is because we resist the idea of women acting subservient to men?"
Possibly, probably!! It was in 1920 I believe that women in American finally acquired all the equal rights with men (they could finally vote!). And previous to that women could not own property. We are equal in America.
It seems that in some instances in the Muslim world, regardless of their business acumen and their roles in the home) they are not equal to men. Public restaurants where women are not allowed! They cannot attend a mosque?
Is it not true that women cannot go to public places unless she is given permission by her husband or father? Is it not true that she is REQUIRED to wear the head scarf by her religious government rules.
-
Good Morning - I'm not yawning as much as I was last night when I posted, so I thought I'd slip into the discussion again.
JOAN - my pleasure to share some of the information about Islam and the variety of choices for Muslimas in choosing the type of clothing and head covering to wear (or not). Indeed, there is a growing Islamic population in your area. I've met some of the Muslim families living in Arlington (and surrounding areas). Most of the women whom I've known through my former public lectures or friends or university acquaintances are business women AND busy parents and spouses at the same time. Since you are in an area where there is a substantial population of Muslims, have you ever visited a study group at a mosque or a women's' forum or perhaps attended various community sessions in private homes where they discuss how they can best reach out to others in their neighborhoods. The Northern VA area has a broad population of non-native Americans, folks from world regions who has happily adapted to American customs for the most part, while keeping some of their traditional customs. Many of the folks whom I've met at various events and in private homes have been wonderfully open about their lives. If you have opportunities to attend events AND pose some cultural/religious questions, I hope you do so. PLUS the food is ALWAYS marvelous!
WEARING THE BURQA: I've never worn the full burqa, but when I was a visiting lecturer in Iran and traveled with friends to a couple of rural villages, I did wear a head scarf and made sure that my long skirt reached to mid-calf, as well as my sweater and jacket being loose fitting. It was NOT necessarily for a religious purpose, but simply my way of showing respect for the village customs. I also did NOT try to shake hands with the adult men whom I met, but simply smiled briefly, placed my right hand over my heart and nodded my head slightly in greeting. The women in the village did NOT wear a full burqa, as they worked outdoors most of the time, but their heads were covered with scarves, skirts were long and loose. Many of the women wore loose-fitting, long sleeved shirts (no cleavage showing at all), but depending on the type of work they did outdoors (and the temperature), they often pushed the sleeves up to their elbows.
During my visits to mosques, I've always covered my head, but I also did that when I fellowshipped with friends in any Catholic church. I am of an age (and Irish background) when one did NOT enter a house of worship (of any religion) without covering ones head. It was simply thought of as a courtesy. I never thought doing so was any type of subordination on my part.
BABI - thanks for the welcome. I smiled at your remembrance of the way some narrow-minded folks of bygone days spoke of the Catholic church and its members. I recall as a youngster attending a Southern Pentecostal church with my late Aunt and Uncle. The latter was raised in Missouri and when I often visited in Summers, I accompanied the family to their local church service. During one service, when the Pastor was criticizing Catholics for NOT being "God's children, but evil-minded folks," I spoke aloud to my Uncle and said something along the lines of "God will NOT be happy with that man's comments. God loves EVERYONE!" Guess I spoke too loud because in a couple of second, one of the Ushers was standing at the end of our row, motioning for me to follow him outside. I did and ended up sitting on the steps waiting for my family. But when the Pastor came out with a scowl on his face, I simply repeated what I'd said, assuring him that although God would be angry that he was so critical of others, I was sure He would forgive the Pastor. Then I turned to my Uncle and asked "NOW can we go for ice cream?"
CALLIE - Of course, it can be confusing for non-Muslim Western women to see Muslimas wearing head scarves, but if one is able to talk with them about WHY they do so, one is able to understand more fully.
Breaking it down into more familiar reasoning about the flip side, think about WHY some Western women wear clothes that emphasize their figures, especially their bosoms and buttocks, short skirts and bikinis that are barely a piece of string, while other women dress more modestly. Why do some women who are regular attendees at their church services (regardless of denomination) go out with friends wearing clothes that reveal the shape and size of their bodies to the extreme, especially on "Girls Night Out," which I'd never heard of until I moved to the American South a few years ago. I've often wondered where the custom in the West originated which encouraged women to purchase and wear clothes in public which are so revealing of their bodies with little if any negative comments. Movies, Hollywood, TV, glamour magazines, teenage daredevil comments which carry on into adult life?
I'm not by any means shy - after all, I'm a native Californian! - but I do recognize that there is an acceptance of the "skin baring" type of clothes worn by many Western women, yet an uncomfortableness about Muslimas who cover their heads and dress modestly. Is that same level of discomfort directed at Orthodox Jewish women who dress VERY conservatively, often in long skirts and full-length shirts or loose sweaters, so that the outline of their body is not readily evident? And their heads are often covered, NOT in the same type of covering used by Muslimas, but certainly as a recognizable gesture that they are modest when in public.
RE your comment about women seemingly being subservient to men: I've known numerous Muslimas who in no way are subservient to their husbands or other male family members or friends AND they always wore head coverings - often even in their own homes. The head covering to a Muslima does NOT convey subservience, but modesty, especially in public.
STEPH: I wondered if you ever asked your female doctor why she referred to herself as "Mrs. Dr.?" Many years ago, my Primary care Dr. was a fellow from India. I really appreciated the way he took care of me and my son. And I always teased him about NOT telling me anything that he would NOT want his wife to hear, since I knew her well, too, and could easily check with her about any suggestions he made. He always laughed, but was enormously clear about his comments to me.
Recently, I caught a glimpse of the Queen of Jordan on a TV interview. Perhaps that was the person of whom you spoke? Indeed, she is a truly beautiful woman, well educated in the West and an avid supporter of bringing about the best education and health care to Jordan's population as possible. She does an enormous amount of local AND international work in those areas, following closely in the footsteps of the Queen Mother (Queen Noor - an American and widow of the late King). Both the current Queen and the Queen Mother have always been aware of the wide range of cultural norms in Jordan, being sure to dress appropriately. However, the Queen Mother also enjoyed riding a motorcycle with her late husband and there are numerous photos published in the West of her dressed appropriately for that sport.
The former Shahbanu (Queen) of Iran, who maintains homes in Europe and the USA (as does the Queen Mother of Jordan) was also a well educated woman, who did enormous outreach to the citizens of Iran before departing the country in 1979 with her late husband (the Shah Mohamed Reza Palavi) for refuge in Egypt, where he died and is buried. By the way, the wife of the current President of Egypt, Suzanne Mubarak, is also Western educated and enormously busy with her own charity work, but dresses modestly in public. Often when she visits rural areas in Egypt, her head is covered with a scarf. She does NOT wear a burka, of course, but she dresses modestly. So even at the top levels of government, Muslimas have a sense of what is appropriate and acceptable in dress and manner. And in my experience, even Muslimas who may be soft-spoken with strangers and offer an especially soft handshake to other women still have sharp minds that are moving at a fast-clip.
Mahlia
-
I would question that women are completely equal to men in the US - they still command only $0.83 in salary to a man's $1.00. But I know what you mean, Ella.
My friend from Turkey did not wear a head covering. It was always my understanding that head coverings or the burqa were cultural and related to village or tribal custom and not required by Islam. There is a Christian denomination in our area (The Church of God of Prophecy) where the women always wear dresses, usually in pastel colors, mid-calf, no make-up or jewelry, and usually what I can only call "big hair" (don't mean that in a derogatory manner - just can't think of another way to describe it). They are instantly recognizable in a store or on the street. I guess that's a similar sort of clothing tradition.
-
Mahlia, you have provided a great deal oof information on Islam and on some of the practices of its adherents, and mounted a vigorous defense of the veil.
It is gratifying to learn that women, educated women as you stressed, have attained positions of importance and, probably, a modicum of material success - albeit out of the glare of the limelight, without fanfare, unbeknownst the the masses, while deferring at home to the master of the house. And in the circumstances of a Muslim country that is as it should be.
But we in this country are not alone in being not so much "confused" as alienated by the concept of women obligated to wear a veil, an abaya, or a burqa (also burka) in a Western country.
Several European countries are wrestling increasingly with this very problem:
The Muslim population is large.France has been trying for some time to ban the wearing of a veil in schools. Millions of Algerians (and Moroccans) who hold French citizenship have come to the homeland; thousands are without work, living in congested, segregated tenements outside Paris, where violence has broken out and cars se aflame in the recent past.
The Netherlands has been accommodating toward Muslims, a muslima sat in the Dutch cabinet a few years ago. I don't remember her name off hand, but she has since come to this country, in fear of her life. She works in Washington.
There has been bloodshed o the Netherlands (also calaled HollandO) and tensions persist.
Germany has the most liberal immigration laws - no doubt to atone for the horrors of the Holocaus, which are a permanent stain on its history.
Turkish "guest workers" were "imported" first when Germany's economic miracle began in the mid 1950s. On my frequent visits to Europe I've been in the streetcar with Turkish women and their children, sitting silently by themselves, not making eye contact, the women with a usually brown headscarf, not a hair in sight, lovely young faces, wearing a long raincoat even on sweeltering summer days. Turkish families were easy to spot In the traffic-free shopping zones : the wife g trailing a few paces behind the husband and the children.
There are large communities in all major German cities, and a large numbe of mosques was built for them - some absolutely stunning edifices.
BTW, In Turkey herself, which is a Muslim coutry with a secular government, there have been outbreaks of violence over the head scarves for school girls, and suicides by girls. That was in fact the subject of a bestseller, Snow, by Orhan Pamuk, Nobel Prize winner in 2006. The author got in trouble with the government, was sentenced but eventually freed.
Turkish journalists holding opinions similar to his were assassinated, ad Pamuk himself left the country and came here. He teaches at Clolumbia.
Incidentally, we have discussed Snow in this forum in 2006, and it, too, can be found in the Archives.
Mosques were built also in Switzerland, where Muslim immigrants have married local girls, thus acquiring Swiss citizenship. A political controversy arose last year over the number of minarets to be built in the country, and voters went to the polls to vote on a referendum in November og 2009.
Yet there has not been the hoped-for "integration" of Muslims into the fabric of the society of the country in which they live and work. Eactly that was recently the topic in Germany when the 20th anniversary of German unification was celebrated. What has disturbed and horrified the native population of Germany, for example, is the continuation of an old tradition; the so-called "honor killings" of Muslim girls who become too Westernized for their family's tastes,
Severe beatings come first. Sometimes the girls run away to shelters. The killers are usually family members, brothers and the father, avenging the dishonor brought on to the family. They readily admit the killing but show no remorse.
To the consternation of the body politic in Britain and in Germany, Muslims groups are demanding that Muslims be tried not by the law of the land i which they live, but by the Sharia, the divine Muslim law.
Back in this country : The school districts in Cambridge, Mass. has announced that The Festival of Sacrifice, Eid-al Adha, will be a recognized holiday next year.
I have not mentioned the history of the spread of Islam after the death of the Prophet in 632 which was one of expansion and warfare. Time is too short to elaboragte, but I wrote a paper about that at university, many years before coming to this country.
Mahlia, may I assume then that, since your husband is Egyptian, you are a convert to Islam and have a fair knowledge of Arabic ?
-
I lived in Morocco (the formerly French Morocco) for almost three years in early 1960s. The women wore what they called a Jelaba (a hooded long outer garment almost always gray) with a veil across the lower part of the face. My "fatima", Lala, came dressed that way but the minute she was inside she, of course, removed those garments. Her regular clothing consisted of mid-calf skirts and loose blouses. Most of the Jelabas were a gray color.
When we visited Tangiers in the formerly Spanish area, I was surprised to see all the women in white Jelabas. A sea of white wherever you looked.
Lala, had a baby boy shortly before she started working in our home but later was divorced by her husband when he remarried because she objected to his new wife. He took the baby and she had no recourse in the courts. Of course, this was almost 40 years ago and so perhaps life is much different there now.
-
Mahlia, Although I grew up in a small, very conservative town in southeastern Oklahoma, my personal upbringing and adult experiences have been amazingly ecumenical and multi-cultural. I assure you that I am very much in favor of showing respect for cultural norms and harbor no criticism whatsoever about those that differ from my own.
A Book Club I belonged to read and discussed "Reading Lolita in Tehran" several years ago. I think it was the first time any of us realized that Muslim women dress like "westerners" underneath the burqua.
-
ELLA - my pleasure! Yes, it would be great if we could all bring a cup of tea and gather together for a face-to-face chat. The only time I've ever had a chance to meet some of the folks in these discussions and the former SN was at a gathering in Washington DC when I lived there years ago. It was great and I surely enjoyed the fellowship. I think we sat down for a meal at a lovely restaurant on the Wharf along the waterfront near the Potomac River.
FYI: The word Muslima refers to one woman; Muslimas is plural.
TRAUDEE: "But we in this country are not alone in being not so much "confused" as alienated by the concept of women obligated to wear a veil, an abaya, or a burqa (also burka) in a Western country."
I agree wholeheartedly that there is confusion and discomfort among non-Muslims about Muslimas wearing the veil in Western countries. However, I have always looked at that concept as a personal choice. And, of course, it is the right of any free country to consider their regulations about public behavior and as we see/read about in France, whether a certain type of dress is acceptable.
However, I have also listened as Muslimas have quietly wondered whether it would be acceptable for them to pose the idea that Christian women should give up wearing a crucifix on a chain around their necks in public. So there are questions on both sides RE customs acceptable to some, but questionable (and uncomfortable) to others.
You have posted some REALLY impressive info about customs in various world regions and we can all learn from that. Even though we are on limited time here, it's almot like sitting and learning together in the same room. It was also great of you to remind us that indeed we did discuss Pamuk's SNOW a few years ago. As I recall, there were also some wonderful shared thoughts in that group discussion, too. Many thanks!
And in response to your inquiry about my own religious affiliation: NO, I am NOT a convert to Islam. I became interested in the Middle East and its broad range of cultures when I was 4 years old and received my very first children's Bible, which included maps of the ancient world.
I began to read, learn, asked tons of questions (which I still do today), and generally developed a more indepth interest as I grew older. In my teenage years, I wrote papers on the region for my HS classes, talked with fellow students from other world regions whom I met in school, and eventually met professional academics when I worked at Montana State University and then spent 25 years at the University of Maryland (UMCP). While at the latter institution, I created a series of programs on American Culture & Society for international visiting scholars and graduate students, continued to lecture publicly on various topics of the Middle East, and was invited to Iran as a Visiting Lecturer. I worked closely with Middle Eastern (and other) embassies in Washington, got to know some of their senior officers and had a wonderful opportunity to learn more about their countries and cultures. After I retired from UMCP, I served as the Cultural Liaison Officer at the Egyptian Educational Bureau in Washington DC and at several other USG agencies, where I was primarily assigned to work with visitors from world regions. I also was invited several times to lecture to military officers from the Middle East to help them learn more about the USA. So a lot of my learning experiences have been hands on with folks from many global regions. My husband teases me frequently that although he is an Egyptian Muslim, I know more about Islam and Egypt than he does! I respond that every time he says that, he has to increase my chocolate ice cream allowance!
Several of the Jewish women in our area (including a Rabbi) have reached out to multifaith communities to include folks in their holidays AND encourage anyone who might be interested in learning about other faiths to reach out to the Muslim community. When I lived in Maryland, many of the synagogues and mosques did the same thing during annual holidays and offered the opportunities to many folks to learn about customs, cultures and religions outside of their own. I recall one area of our former County where there was a gorgeous Budist temple built near a well established synagogue and only a few blocks away from a Christian church. The congregations in all 3 interacted with each other for holidays, study groups, studies of each other's scriptures and customs. REALLY great community spirit!
MARYZ - I agree that women in the USA have a way to go before they, too, are considered totally equal with men in the employment sector (especially regarding their incomes), but also in many regions of the country. For example, before relocating to the American South several years ago, I didn't realize that women are often treated as unfairly as I've read about in the local papers here. The brutality of physical (often sexual) attacks is described in details in many of the news reports and regularly refer to female children, teenagers and adult women being injured, kidnapped and often killed.
The modest style of dress and appearance of some of some of the women in your area reminds me of the customs of the elder Mormon women I recall reading and seeing in news photos years ago, but also of the women today who belong to "break-away" sects from what used to be historical Mormon families. I recall the phrase "band of sisters" which references several women married to the same man and raising numerous children sired by that one man within the "home" he provided for ALL of them.
CALLIE - I'm definitely with you RE being respectful about folks of many different backgrounds.
I had to smile about your comment RE the clothing many Muslimas wear underneath their outer garb. I have been invited several times to social gathering with Muslimas in their homes where there are absolutely no men present and the women are truly dressed in "high fashion" - clothing, jewelry and hair styles that one would envision as the latest Hollywood fashions or those purchased by enormously wealthy women.
Several of our local friends and a couple from one of the local Methodist churches where I have lectured in the past traveled to Egypt during the past few years. When they returned home, they described their trips, which were often the "typical" adventures designed for Westerners.
But a couple of them also spoke of seeing women in downtown Cairo dressed in very tight blue jeans, nails beautifully manicured with bright polish, eyebrows plucked professionally and the red lipstick which could be seen for blocks. I truly had to laugh, as that is the fashion of my husbands students at his home university. The older faculty do not like this "flashy" modern style of dress, but many of the young female students just lower their eyes, smile gently and move along. Of course, there are more moderately dressed female students, too.
FLAJEAN - I don't know too much about Morocco, but your comments sound familiar from my own reading. It is indeed sad that your fatima lost her baby - that was surely true heartbreak for her. But in the age-old tradition of marriage in Islam, the husband had the right to remove the child - especially a boy - after the baby stopped nursing (or the husband found a surrogate for him). Sad, but common in those days and sometimes even today in the extremely traditional home environments if there is unpleasantness about a husband taking multiple wives.
It's been a great conversation. Thanks for inviting me to participate. How long will this discussion continue? I'm scheduled for a medical procedure on Thursday.
Mahlia
-
Mahlia, thanks for so much information.. Yes it was the Queen of Jordan who was on Today a few weeks ago. I guess I will never ever really understand the concept of the man in a pair of shorts and tshirt and the woman in a headscarf, long sleeves,long skirt,, and sometimes gloves at Disney.. At least the Amish both dress in a prescribed fashion. They are perhaps the people I know best who behave and dress in a particular way. The Amish also would not even consider asking or pursuading anyone to behave in any fashion. They simply hold onto their style of life for many reasons..
-
When we lived in Maryland, there was a wonderful Amish market not far from our home. Thus, we were able to enjoy the fresh foods, delicious breads, beautiful cuts of meats, homemade desserts and many other products. It was a family/community run affair, so many of the young adults were right up front willing to help find a product. Big smiles, gracious greetings and "come back soon," was ALWAYS the exit line. And we surely did. The Amish folks I've met and interacted with are truly a special group of folks!
I understand the confusion RE the way traditional Muslimas dress in public. Certainly in an environment like Disney, it would have been unusual to see the couple you mention, but, Hey, everyone to their own preference. The traditional cultural reason for Muslimas to dress this way is to protect their physical privacy. Some of the Muslimas are truly beautiful and their husbands jealous as all get-out if they are in public. Other fellows just encourage their wives to dress modestly without getting into a big argument about it. And many Muslimas I've known make their own choices about how much to cover-up in public (or NOT), recognizing that modesty in one's manner is equally as important as covering one's body!
I noticed Queen Noor was also scheduled last night for the Charlie Rose show, which follows the BBC news late in the evening in our area. I wanted to watch her on the program, since she was talking about some projects she had helped to support in the Tribecca area of NY, but couldn't stay awake long enough. I did see a couple of minutes of the early part and she is still as lovely as always AND still deeply involved in a wide range of international projects worldwide, as well as those she has undertaken in the USA.
Mahlia
-
Oops - forgot to add the link below to an interesting story in PARADE MAGAZINE RE Muslim families from Iraq who relocated to the USA - especially Lincoln, NE - and found a truly warm welcome and community support to help them heal the ravages of the earlier Gulf War. What struck me the most was how wonderfully these families were treated by longtime residents and encouraged to begin their lives again in a safe and welcoming environment in the USA.
http://www.parade.com/news/2010/10/10-from-the-mideast-to-the-midwest.html
Mahlia
-
Thanks, PERSIAN. Modesty, privacy. Reasons for a headscarf! What's with the hair - it's immodest? I don't understand, probably never will, but America, fortunately, has religious freedom and the freedom to dress as you please. And we are so very lucky to be born and to be American citizens. How difficult it must be to be an immigrant.
We had a Somalian couple buy a condo in my development and they lived there a couple of years. I assume they were Muslims as the woman dressed in the burkha and head scarf. The husband was ill and never came out much; none of them were friendly. The daughter wore tight jeans and shirts as any American teenager would; the son, who was older, dressed traditionally in a long white blousy shirt. A neighbor asked the son why he did not help his mother and sister getting the weak father into the car, he said royally that was women's work.
Well, you know how that went over in our neighborhood!
Women's work and men's work are very different in a Muslim household from what we read. But as the American Muslims assimilate into our society their young folk may have a tendency, in some households, to change.
-
We discussed Queen Noor's autobiography some years ago, it is in our Archives also.
-
Thank you so much for all of your valuable information, Mahlia - first hand accounts - we couldn't ask for a more knowledgeable guide. Yesterday, mid day, I was driving by the mosque on Leesburg Pike, which you quite likely have visited. The mid-day crowd of those attending prayer services at that mosque is so large, there are at least three policemen directing the traffic there. Clearly attendance is growing in that area. All of the women have their heads covered, no surprise as they are attending a religious service. Remember the old days when you always covered your head when entering a Catholic church? Even if we didn't have a hat or a veil, we would use a bobby pin to hold a Kleenex on our heads. When did that change, I wonder? Today, no one wears a hat in Church - except the rare Easter bonnet.
I was in a shop near to that mosque yesterday. There was a teenage girl with a fairly large head covering...and then from the back, she was wearing cut-off shorts and some skin was showing at the middrift. Do you think this is a sign of change among the young, Ella?
-
ELLA - Ah, yes, THE HAIR! ::) I cannot remember a public lecture (regardless of group size) in which someone has not asked "What about the womens' hair? What's the BIG DEAL?" Now in the USA, folks (especially younger ones) tend to focus on a woman's bosom, long/slender legs or buttocks (especially provocative in extra tight jeans), but THE HAIR is usually a major focus for folks who are NOT familiar with Muslimas covering their head.
To a Muslima, her hair is considered to be her "shining glory," a major part of her beauty and NOT to be shown off outside her family. If she has the funds, taking care of her hair is one of her major expenditures and ALWAYS looks beautiful. But only her immediate family are able to view her head uncovered. And in many households, the women will cover their head as they rise in the morning and wear a head covering ALL DAY.
Many times younger girls will also cover their hair as a sign of modesty as they learn about their family's religious customs. At that younger age, covering the hair is often taught as a sign of personal modesty.
Many Muslimas (especially young ones, have VERY long hair and it takes a lot of care to keep it healthy. When women get together, it is often for some type of "personal care" party, including hair styling. Sometimes the effort is lavish, other times very simple, depending on the funds available, the women involved and the time available. As the women age, their hair may be styled shorter, but they still continue to devote an enormous amount of time to their hair care.
Their efforts remind me of the French women I've known, many of whom spend equal time, funds and efforts to make sure their hair is well tended. I've NEVER known a French woman or a Muslima (from any country) who has what I would describe as "fly away" hair.
My impression RE the young Somali man you mentioned would be that in speaking to an American, he wanted to present the best possible depiction of his "masculinity" and thus responded in a manner which he thought would indicate that he could not be bothered with less than masculine (to his way of thinking) manners. I've known a lot of African men in the USA, especially when I was at USAID's Africa Bureau in Washington, who had excellent manners and went out of their way to help others. The Bureau was not staffed by Diplomats, of course, but folks who represented various levels of African interests, countries, regions, etc. I don't speak the Somali languages, but if I'd been your neighbor asking the young man why he didn't help his father and he responded to me, I would have BARKED at him in Swahili (which is a very common language in Africa) saying "HE IS YOUR FATHER! EXTEND YOUR HAND TO HELP!"
The seeming unfriendliness of the family may simply have been a language issue - perhaps the parents did not speak English - or the concern for the father's health may have overtaken their interest in getting to know neighbors, especially if there were no other Somalis in the community.
JOAN - my pleasure to share in this discussion. I smiled at your comment about pinning a Kleenex to your head in church. I've never done that, but always covered my head when attending a Catholic church and still do so today. The Irish side of my family (paternal) were Catholics and that tradition still applies. For example, when I am in a Catholic church, I always dip my fingers in the water as I enter, walk to the pew, kneel slightly, enter the pew, go to my knees immediately - NEVER sitting down first - say my prayers with my Grandmother's rosary in hand, which rests on top of my large family Bible at home when not in use - THEN take my seat in the pew.
I know the Leesburg Pike mosque very well and have friends that live in the area. There also used to be some REALLY good Middle Eastern bakeries in that area, which we enjoyed.
Wearing hats in church in the USA seems to be a regional and/or perhaps age custom, as well as cultural. Whenever I've been invited to speak or be part of a panel at an African-American church on Sunday, the women have ALL worn hats. And some REALLY beautiful ones. When we moved from Maryland to our local home in NC, I packed two hats (both long-time possessions from Nieman Marcus) because I knew that the AA churches in this area would be even more traditional than those I'd become accustomed to in the metropolitan Washington area. Sure enough, one of the first programs I was invited to was in a big AA church. I wore a beautiful wide brimmed black hat with a gorgeous gold and purple plume across the front. I think many of the women asked more questions about my hat than they did about my remarks!
After living in the American South for several years, I've learned firsthand that women's and men's work hereabouts is also quite different than what I am accustomed to. I always laugh (silently, of course) when I hear some women talk about "not wanting to chip their nail polish" so they don't do some household chores. And I'd never heard of a "Honey Do List" until we relocated to the South! On the other hand, men from other countries CAN learn quite easily to do household or yard chores which they would not have experienced in their home countries.
For example, my husband (an Egyptian Muslim university professor of Humanities) spent this morning cleaning the drains in our bathroom (sink, commode and bathtub). Now he's off to vacuum the basement with one of his new toys (a wet/dry vacuum). I don't think he would do this in Egypt. Gotta love the guy!
Mahlia
-
Erotica varies from culture to culture. Medieval Japanese considered the back of a woman's neck to be especially provocative.
-
The subject of the Muslimas seems to have captured a lot of interest here.
Well, since all our posters just now are women, that's natural enough.
If one point comes across more clearly to me than anything else, it's that
it's useless to try to describe any group of people as all being this or
that. People within every nation, religion, culture....they're different, they're
individuals. Putting labels on them just keeps us from seeing what's really
there.
There's still the rest of the day for commentary. Tomorrow we start the
topic of the origins of body decoration....tattoos and scarification. Since
our grandchildren's generation has plunged into the whole scene almost
wholesale, maybe this will give us a clue. ???
Mahlia, your Thursday is free, but do come back and join us as you can.
I'm sure no medical procedure is going to keep you down for long! Thanks
for your responses to all our questions. We don't often have an expert on
tap, and it surely does help.
-
My thanks to the HEAD HONCHO (BABI) who invited me and all the posters who shared interesting questions and comments. That's what learning is all about, right? Sharing!
Mahlia
-
All enjoyable reading above but we as Westerners will not understand lots of the ways of the East. Freedom of Choice is what we Like. Culture is fine. I enjoy seeing people follow their beliefs but they should have the choice of Following it or not. Most religions have this choice.
To me is seems that there are no choices in the Muslem religion. In the Jewish you can be Orthodox and follow strict rules. Some still wear the wigs. have the food laws but then there are 2 other choices. Many now seem to be Conservative. The young will be mostly that. Many intermarriages now. Three of my daughters friends have married Jewish men in the last 3 years. Look 20 years ahead and Judisiam will have many changes.
I live close to a Amish area and they also have the choice prior to the age of 18 they can decide. Follow the "Plain " or the English as they call it here. No force.
Comes to Christianity one can be any the want. (To many different ones I think).
But Muslim. I could be wrong but I have read about what can happen if a women goes out without head covered. Does not cover herself fully as they show in some areas. (Burkos)?
Cannot be seen talking to any man without a male along with her. Stoned if said to have had affair. They are not all given the choice of Education. I would say that a good 75% of the women still come under these rules.
I know we in our countries have gone to far with the way women dress and how much they show. Our young women are given a choice and really not used it right. Moral really needs to change back some. Can blame lots of this on the TV. Movies, Etc. This was not what the women who fought for Equal rights meant it to be like.
-
Talking Heads #11
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online:
bring your ideas and let's discuss.
Our Eleventh Topic:
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
Sixth topic - Oct.16 ~ UNJUST LAWS?
"Unjust Law is no law at all" (http://www.enotes.com/law/group/discuss/unjust-law-no-law-all-69271)
Letter from Birmingham Jail (http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html) (ML King Jr.)
Where does Morality fit into Law?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/saintaugustine.jpg)
"Unjust law is no law at all" ~ St. Augustine of Hippo
| |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
Tattoo...piercing.. At this moment, my biggest hope is that my granddaughter does not do this.. but she is 15 and after 18, her parents can no longer say NO>. At least piercing will heal if you simply dont use a ring any more..But the Tatts.. are so very hard to get rid of..
-
JEANNE, I have always felt that movies and TV have far too great an impact on our
society. We forget that their goal is to sell, and what they represent as the norm,
or even acceptable, is not necessarily so. Until, over time, the film industries
standards of morality do become the norm. Each younger generation gets the idea that
"everybody's doing it".
I wonder how much that has to do with the proliferation of tattooing in North America. My
three grandchildren, all adults now, all sport tattoos and seem quite pleased with them. I can't
understand it, but it's done and I am not about to alienate my grandchildren by carping about it.
Our article states that one survey indicate 40% of Americans between the ages of 26 and 40
have been tattooed! I can understand the body decorations in primitive subcultures, where the
body was the only canvas available on which to express the artistic impulse. I can understand
the desire to document key events in their lives, like coming of age. Neither of those reasons
explain tattooing and scarification in a modern culture.
-
No, JoanP,
No ads on my computer.
I wanted to thank Mahlia for being so gracious in answering our questions. And the questions were so varied and interesting.
Although we are only discussing this topic for three days, its been most gratiflying to read all of the posts.
Whoops, I see that the topic has changed and we are off to discuss the history of tattooing?? Body piercing?? My goodness, I am not fond of what the young people and some older are doing to their bodies. But at one time in the history of the world, it was very well thought of and an honor to do these things.
-
BABI, what are the tatoos your grandchldren have? What do they look like? Where are they?
I didn't know that this is popular with the young! Why? Can you get the thing off your body if you decide you don't want the tatoo later? I skimmed the article and the methods they describe for removal sound "iffy.'
When we were young, we associated tatoos with sailors for some reason, long forgotten.
I know my hairdresser had permnent eyebrows tattooed on and I like them. And something else, was it eyelashes? Anyway she is 65 years old and very attractive. People would say she is 45 easily.
-
ADOANNIE - as I mentioned earlier, it was a pleasure to participate in the 3 day discussion RE Islam. Excellent questions, stimulating thoughts and perhaps continued exploration in the future for those interested.
JEANNE - With great respect for your comments, may I respond that there is indeed a wide range of choice on many topics in Islam. However, non-Islamic traditions (especially in the West) are NOT generally aware of them, since they do not attract the TV or newspaper coverage that the more orthodox forms do and thus are not as well known. And of course, since head coverings for women and modest dress are more noticeable in public, they naturally draw more attention (and questions) from individuals not familiar with the customs.
For example, my Egyptian husband is an example of a MODERATE Muslim. Many of our Muslim male friends are also of the same persuasion. Some of them are married to non-Muslim American women, a couple to Egyptian Christian women, and several to Muslimas who follow a variety of modest choices with their selection of clothing, but do NOT cover their hair in public. Of course, we do know families who adhere (by choice) to the more orthodox forms of dress for the women. Although there is a range of choice RE women's dress in Islam, it is NOT well known by non-Muslims (particularly in the West), whose knowledge of Muslims often depends on what they see and read in the news, rather than knowing people personally.
Now. . . . moving right along to the subject of tattooing!
Mahlia
-
Our six grandkids are in their 20s. Both of the girls have tattoos, and one grandson (the one in the Navy). I don't know about the other guys - haven't noticed, and the subject hasn't come up. Also, both girls have navel rings. Grandma keeps her mouth closed on the subject. The two girls are siblings, and I don't think their other grandparents are aware of the tattoos. The older one has a small one of the Oz ruby slippers on her ankle. The younger (now 21) one's first one is fairly large (at least to me) in the middle of her back, and is to honor a friend who was accidentally killed in their junior year of high school. The second one is smaller and is to honor her 90-year-old great-great-aunt (a cross) and me (the breast cancer ribbon). I've never mentioned that I might have preferred something else ::) , but I am touched by the thought and appreciate the honor she bestowed and carries with her.
Mahlia, thanks from me, too, for your insightful and helpful comments and explanations.
-
MARYZ - and I'll bet that is exactly why your gal has those daily reminders - so she will NEVER forget!
Mahlia
-
JoanP and Mahlia,
We have touched before on the subject of head and body covering used by Muslim women, for examp,le in our discussion of A Thousand splendid Suns by Pakistani-born Khaled Hosseini (author also of The Kite Runner). Furthermore, The Bookseller of Kabul by Åsne Eierstadt, an award-winning Norwegian journalist, who has reported from other theaters of war inter alia Bosnia), has been mentioned.
Eierstad went to Afghanistan after 9/11, when the Taliban had been pushed back, and lived with a bokseller's family for about 4 months, interviewed the members of his family (5 children) and close relatives, attending a Muslim wedding (where henna is rubbed on the palms of the women on the eve, if I remember correctly). She reports in the book of going to the bazaar with the women of the family, all of them enshrouded in a burka. She also commented on one teenage son who showed scant respect for women, even his own mother. She also mentioned that women were not allowed to go out alone unaccompanied without a male presence, even if if's a young boy.
Confronted or living with this, as Seierstgad did, is more appalling than "confusing" in my humble opinion. In that regard, Muslim society has indeed not progressed at all, as Jeanne said here earlier. The issue of women's covering up in public and in schools will continue to be hotly debated, whether it be veil or burka, or something in between.
Recently two young female students caused a stir in Paris, walking the avenues of Paris in a short burka that ends well above the knee, in bare legs and short sort pants. They made a film about it, and a video of the "stir" was shown. Check Google "French women cause a stir in niqab and hot pants". There it is - just when one thought we'd "seen it all" !! With respect, I think this IS indeed "big business" in a western country. It is a thorny issue that will not go away any time soon.
-----------------
On erotica - the Chinese had the foot fetish, and the first concrete of their nascent independence came when they stopped binding their feet.
On body piercing and tattoos: I confess to having a low tolerance to both. My two grands, boy 14, girl 11 (going on 16) have not mentioned it, yet. Both attend private school and wear uniforms. Both play soccer and are sports fanatics; Hannah has taken ballet for years.
-----------------
Mahlia, thank you for your information. I wish there had been ore time to at least mention the history of Islam afte 632. I hope all will go well with your medical orocedure tomorrow.
Traude
-
I do hope that Mahlia is ok, since today she was having a procedure of some sort at the hospital.
When I owned my stores,, I would not hire anyone pierced in any place other than earrings.. That is that showed.. Simply did not want to turn customers off. I have no strong feelings for small tatts done well. The small rose,, the breast cancer symbol. But the women who have tattoos all down both legs..Whew.. Just looks awful.
-
ELLA, I couldn't begin to tell you about my grandkids tattoos. The Canadian pair have
several and I tried to admire them as artwork without cringing too much over the fact
that they adorned their bodies permanently.
There's a long tradition of sailors and tattoos, MARY. If you got that far in the
article, you know that sailors were the ones who first carried tattoos from the
remote areas ot the world back to civilization. I was interested that your younger
granddaughter acquires tattoos specifically in honor of people she loves. That is
much closer to the original purposeful use of tattoos to celebrate special events in
the tribal life.
A lot of tattoos in plain sight does look 'awful' to most of us, doesn't it, STEPH. Especially
our generation. Personally, I suspect that is a major reason for it's popularity with the young
people. Every generation seems to come up with something to shock their elders. It's just
that in the past, it wasn't a thing we would have to live with ever after. Yes, tattoos can be
removed, but getting them off is much harder them putting them on. Here's a link to a site
that gives an idea of what's involved. http://www.googobits.com/articles/1745-removing-your-tattoo.html
-
The kids today are exposed to so much more than we are aware of...to them, their own little tatts are nothing - compared to what they see on TV and on the net - I'm thinking of Angelina Jolie... Are you familiar with the Sandra Bullock/Jesse James - their marriage breakdown as she was accepting the Academy Award? He's covered with tattoos. Well, he has a new love interest.... You've probably never spent time watching "Miami Ink" - a reality TV showabout a tattoo parlor in Florida. I'll bet you know about it, Steph ;) Jesse James in now in love with a former employee at Miami Ink - who now has her own show in CA. Are you ready for Kat's tattoos? Keep in mind that this is popular programming among the young...take a look at Kat's tats! (http://entertainment.msn.co.nz/img/blog/jul09/blog290709_kat-von-d-tattoos.jpg)!
more! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kat_Von_D_1_fixed.jpg)
I think the issue of tattoos goes beyond rebellion - it is more of a desire to identify with others - who are free, hip, cooler than who they have been. Come to think of it, maybe that's the same thing as rebellion. You're right, Babi - it's a painful and expensive process to get rid of them.
-
Ugh! I find that really, really ugly.
Did you see, in the linked article, the mistress of the Japanese gangster boss whose entire back
was tattooed with symbols of their mafia type group? Those tattoos were at least delicate and
gave the appearance of lace on her back. I couldn't help but wonder, though, if all that was her choice, or her master's.
All this could be identification, JOANP,... but with what.? I would dearly love to understand that.
-
My DIL and I were talking to a young mother at a soccer game. She had tattoos on her shoulder, in the back. They were small and represented each of her children. Like a flower to represent daugher, Lily. My DIL mentioned that she had wanted to do the same thing for her 4 kidsos. I almost fell over in shock and horror but manage to keep my big mouth shut!
But, when you look at KAT's Tats and Others, you see a beautiful young lady and wonder why is she ruining her body? Are we missing the point ??? Got me!
Does anybody here remember the cover or graphic of the NUDE actress that was in one of the news mags about 15 yrs ago? She was also pregnant. The tattoos were removable but you couldn't tell that she was NUDE!! Bruce Willis's ex now. Can't think of her name. Ah, yes, a google search reveals its Demi Moore but I can't find the picture.
-
Idendification, possibly. At one time, didn't the street gangs (L.A. possibly?) have tatoos? And, then, there were motorcycle gangs.
I don't know how these tatoos evolved from that time of identity to the teenagers of today.
Is it an age thing then?
-
I've noticed that in the funeral cortege of some military personnel whose bodies are returned home for burial, there is often a motorcycle cortege accompanying the family's vehicles. And quite often the bikers are tattooed - sometimes extensively. Some of the older guys are Vietnam vets, but others are younger.
Recently the 20-something Army son of one of our local Pastors died and his service was here in our town. Some of the fellows who accompanied the family's cars were much younger, but many of the men on the curbs holding flags were in their 20's. They also were tattooed.
But perhaps if we think of the tattooing of today and then recall the PURPLE or PURPLE/RED colored hair of the 1970's, it doesn't seem so peculiar. Of course, the hair color can wear out, whereas removing tattoos is a much more complicated process. Even though I grew up (sort of) in the age of Hippies, I was always much more interested in Jackie Kennedy's style!
I glanced at one of my books today, entitled THE WORLD OF ALLAH, and noticed among the gorgeous photos of the tribal women throughout the Middle East, there are often clearly defined tattoo es on the women's hands and arms. A couple had them in the middle of their foreheads! These are TRIBAL symbols, just as is the case throughout much of Africa.
Thanks for the thoughts today RE my medical procedure. I was home before noon, took a nap and am really fine. I appreciate the support!
Mahlia
-
ELLA - I'm a native of Los Angeles, so may I respond to your inquiry about tattoos in that area?
Yes, indeed, there were specific "gang tattoos" that I remember from many years ago. I especially recall those from the CRIPS and the BLOODS, because those folks were NOT shy about showing them in public. Most were intended (at that time) for ONLY identification purposes between the gangs of different city areas. As the years passed, the tattooed insignias took on more meaning - some serious threats, some joking taunts, and others placed in "unmentionable" places of the body to instill in the individuals receiving them that "pain" was also part of being a member. Even the girlfriends had tattoos.
I graduated from a HS in the Los Angeles suburbs and recall that several of the Latinas had tattoos on their arms, across the upper breast or under their armpits - which they were eager to show off in the girl's bathrooms. In those days, some of the Latinas also carried their boyfriend's "weapons" - usually a knife (or just the blade) taped to the inside of their arms and covered by a long-sleeve shirt or sweater. It took a while for school officials to figure out that the girlfriends often carried the weapons, NOT just the boys.
Years later, when I relocated to the metropolitan Washington DC area, I noticed there were large numbers of tattooed youth in the high schools, area community colleges, as well as the universities. And on weekends, there were always large numbers of gang members hunkered down in the Georgetown area of Washington - at least until the Police came through to clear them out - but they returned a couple of hours later, riding their motorcycles back across the bridges from Northern VA.
Mahlia
-
If one must have a tattoo they should try a temporary one first. When I was in Greece (actually on the magnificent island of Santorini) many, many women were sporting tattoos. I got to talking to a woman about this trend and she told me that women (tourists) of all ages around the Greek islands had temporary tattoos. So - I found the temporary tattooist and requested that he tattoo a pterodactyl on my right inside ankle. He did. I loved it - don't ask me why I chose a pterodactyl, as I have no idea. It washed off after about 3 weeks and I was satisfied with the experience of being tattooed.
As for a permanent tattoo - no way! I can visualise in thirty years all these women in nursing homes explaining away why they were wearing permanent tattoos of something as obscure as a Burmese hill tribe's totem, that they had most likely forgotten. As the women were fading slowly, so were the tattoos. Not a good look, as they say.
Demi Moore is the actress you are referring to AdoAnnie.
-
A friend of mine loves to send jokes online and he recently sent me a whole series based on being a senior and having serious tatts.. Very funny indeed.
-
PERSIAN mentioned the tattoos of women of the Middle East. Some of those are temporary,
also. They are painted on with henna as part of a wedding celebration. They can be very
complex and detailed, but will last little more than a week.
It occurs to me, considering what a woman might endure for beauty, that we have women
walking about in pain every day, in 4-inch heels with narrow toes. It's easy to say she can always take off the shoes, but the damage to her feet could be as permanent as those tattoos.
We need some new topics. Coming up tomorrow is the topic of unjust laws, and what
morality would require of us in that regard. We need more topics to follow. Look for news
topics that catch your interest, things that are happening right now!
Speaking of which, I would be interested to know what the new political "Tea Party" is all
about. I looked for a description, but all I'm finding just now is what they are doing, not who/what they are. Can anyone enlighten me?
-
BABI - one topic I've been following regularly is "gays in the military," and how the various areas of the USA are responding to the "don't ask, don't tell," including the Pentagon, retired vets, younger folks who are considering military service (not only to serve their country, but to have a regular income and insurance).
Another topic which has been in the news frequently is the still fairly low salary levels of women in the USA. However, there are some women who earn substantial salaries and many younger women who plan to reach those higher dollar rates in the near future. In the latter category is Danica Patrick, a young NASCAR driver, as well as an INDY race car driver. Some women in the banking and investment sector earn substantial salaries and younger women (many still in college) are keeping a close eye on their salaries as graduation approaches.
One more topic which has drawn my close attention is how much folks in the USA have become really savvy about how to develop home businesses. Some who were fired from long-time jobs and others who simply got tired of working for others have followed-up on great business ideas. One of the local community colleges near here has revamped it curriculum to address this increase in home businesses.
And, of course, world-wide cultural issues are always interesting. Just a couple of thoughts for future topics. Hope everyone has a great weekend!
Mahlia
-
Babi,
Here's an article that I just read online at Yahoo News. It could lead to an interesting 3 day chat among our posters?
http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/food/americas-top-5-healthiest-fast-food-restaurants-2397396/
-
My archaeologist daughter has a petroglyph, and my artist daughter has the kanji for "lotus."
I think--and my tongue is firmly inserted in cheek here--that we have no one to blame for this but ourselves. After all, we made it impossible for our kids to upset their parents with anything as simple and temporary as long hair and short skirts, so they had to find some way to up the ante. I shudder to think what THEIR kids will come up with!
-
Having a son with long hair didn't upset me but it drove my DH crazy. Having a daughter who thought hanging with the guttersnipes was the thing to do, was getting to me. I only hoped that they would remember these things when they raised their own children. And, they did! Wow, what a shock that was! Their kids were worrying them just like they had done to their parents. Well DUH! Who would have thought?? hahaha! That's life!
Persian,
I like your idea of talking about laid off workers finding a different way to work and many--online. Just don't believe that one young woman who is making $6800 a month or was that a week, right here in my hometown. Its a scam, where you give scammer $10 0r $20 dollars for the kit to learn how. He could make his fortune just collecting the money for the kit. Well, he has certainly learned how to make a lot on the internet, working from home. hahaha!
-
Roxania - Interesting to learn about your daughters' tats. I am particularly interested in the petroglyph. I am reading "Cracking the Code - The Rosetta Stone" at the moment. Fascinating stuff - but cringing somewhat at the thought of having it as a permanent tattoo. What with one section each of Egyptian hieroglyphs, Coptic and Greek, and the prospect of many weeks under the tattooist's needle, I think I will give the Rosetta Stone a miss as a tattoo. What does your daughter's petroglyph represent?
-
I have read a little about an organization brand new,, called " The Coffee Party" It seems to be mostly about good sense.. restraint and responsible voting.. No idea how it started. Possibly on Facebook..
-
Our Eleventh Topic:
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
Sixth topic - Oct.16 ~ UNJUST LAWS?
"Unjust Law is no law at all" (http://www.enotes.com/law/group/discuss/unjust-law-no-law-all-69271)
Letter from Birmingham Jail (http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html) (ML King Jr.)
Where does Morality fit into Law?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/saintaugustine.jpg)
"Unjust law is no law at all" ~ St. Augustine of Hippo
| |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
-
MAHLIA & ANNIE, thanks for those suggestions.
I have been seeing quite a bit about the turmoil over 'don't ask, don't tell'. Do you
have a link to a good article reviewing the subject, MAHLIA? Same for the one
Annie liked, about laid-off workers finding other sources of income.
ANNIE, I was dismayed to see that only one of those five top 'good food' chains is
even available where I live. How about the rest of you? Can we identify local chains
with some healthy food?
TODAY we're starting a new topic on unjust laws, another one from ELLA. Do check out the
links. The quote is from St.Augustine, quoted by MLK, Jr. in his "Letter From Birmingham Jail".
The second link is to the letter, which I read for the first time...with enormous respect!
-
ENORMOUS RESPECT! Yes, I had never read Dr. King's Letter from the Birmingham Jail either.
Did you know he was in solitary confinement in prison; was given newspapers by a trustee, and a pencil, and wrote that 8 or was it 10 page single-spaced letter on the margins of newspapers? Scholarly? Read it!!!
He had a PhD in theology and was the third generation of ministers. Well schooled in classical literature!
-
One of the central questions here I believe (I may be wrong, of course) is would the Civil Rights Act have been passed if it had not been for Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
I think most of us remember the protest marches??? Don't you?
Where were you?
-
It may not have happened without this man either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9kT1yO4MGg&feature=related
Bull Connor - the perfect adversary
-
BABI - here's a link to several online articles on the topic of "Don't Ask, don't tell," which may be of interest if you select this topic for future discussions. As you know, it is a HOT topic in the military and with folks who work with the military (whether at the USG level - Pentagon - or at the various posts throughout the USA and abroad). Chaplains get pulled into the fray, especially when there is physical abuse of active-duty military personnel or the gay personnel can no longer bear the fear, frustration or threats.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=don%27t+ask%2C+don%27t+tell&ei=UTF-8&fr=chrf-ytbm
Another future topic might be to share info RE how folks throughout the USA are responding to the changing demographics in their areas RE the enormous increase in newcomers from other countries. In the Southern area where we live (about 20 miles NE of Charlotte, NC), there is a substantial Hispanic population, which continues to increase. And, quite naturally, there are an abundance of small businesses established by these newcomers - often small laundries or restaurants. I've noticed also that many of the crew members on our City services teams (trash pick up, newspaper deliveries, etc.) are Hispanic. Since I'm a native Californian and have been around Hispanics and Latinos most of my life, it's NOT a big deal, but to folks who have not had the multicultural experiences I've enjoyed, they are often puzzled and/or uncomfortable.
ELLA - I lived in the metropolitan Washington DC suburbs and well remember the thousands of people marching along the major areas of Washington, overflowing into Maryland and across the Potomac River into Northern Virginia. I also remember the thousands of folks (country-wide) who came to our area to hear Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech. It was truly a proud moment in history and one which has continued as a focus of classroom learning at all levels throughout the school systems.
Mahlia
-
Thanks, PERSIAN, for your interest.
You are right that we are still studying and learning about civil protests. A local judge is giving a series of lectures concerning the topic. I didn't know, for example, that Dr. King and his associates PLANNED the whole protest movement before it began. The city they chose was Birmingham because it was the most segregated and they wanted to go to jail, they purposely created scenes of protest.
Did you know that Henry Bellefontaine raised money, in Hollywood and other places, for their bond money?
-
While reading a recent bio of Condolizza Rice I had the recurring tho't that I have anytime I've read or heard about people performing civil disobedience - would I have the courage to do that? Could I perform an act that I knew might get me fired, or that would destroy my career,or that would get my house burned, or that would put my children's security in danger? If I was a parent in Little Rock, could I have sent my child to integrate the high school and have them in danger or apprehensive every day? I don't think I could do that. Rice's parents wouldn't let her march in the Children's March in Birmingham.
My husband and his sister were at the '63 March on Washington. Of course, they were not endangered, but they could have been.
It't only been in the last few decades that we've begun to hear how much women were responsible for the civil rights movement. In the three cases that were considered to be the impetus for the Montgomery bus boycott, all three people arrested were female. It was a group of women who mimeographed 40,000 flyers to start the boycott. Remember mimeo graph machines w/ that purple ink? They also distributed them that night to mostly women teachers who sent the flyers home w/ their students. It was mostly women who rode the buses and, therefore, boycotted the buses.
John Lewis gave much praise to Ellen Baker in his autobio. She did much of the organizational work for M.L.King in the SCLC, and did not get any credit and little cooperation. So she left and started the Student Non-violent Coordinating Comm.
Here's a site that gives a summary of some of the women.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9862643/
Jean
-
ELLA - I wonder if you mean Harry Belafonte? If so, here is a link to some info RE his association with Dr. King.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Harry+Belafonte+and+Martin+Luther+King&ei=UTF-8&fr=chrf-ytbm
Mahlia
-
I marched against Viet Nam and yes , it was scary, but I was never arrested.. However I know another woman, a Quaker, who insisted onl picketing and then climbing fences in federal installations and at 65, they sent her to federal prison for two years.. Made me really think.. I had small children at the time.
-
Yes, I did mean Harry Belafonte, an interesting man. Thanks, Persian
And we have forgotten the women, Jean, with the exception of Rosa Parks, AND we have forgotten THE NORTHERN WHITE PEOPLE THAT CAME TO THE PROTEST! CAME IN HUNDREDS AND HELPED THE COUNTRY REALIZE THE IMMORALITY OF SEGREGATION. They came in buses and cars - weren't they called Freedom Riders?
Steph, I had small children at the time, too, and couldn't leave them. But I wonder if I would have?
-
Our lecturerer, the Judge, says an unjust law is when the majority makes a law binding upon a minority who has not had an opportunity to vote for the law.
-
Thanks, MAHLIA. I definitely want to include that 'HOT' topic.
JEAN, I wasn't aware of all that about the role of women in civil rights. None of
those names mentioned in the link were known to me. Not surprising, of course, given
the times. Women were always in the background, 'supporting' the male leadership. The
media singles out a heroine for the public to admire, like the courageous Rosa Parks,
and say no more of the women's role.
Your observations about the risks of civil disobedience are very realistic, and may
explain why so many women were involved. Their men may well have been reluctant to
risk the loss of a job they badly needed to support their families.
As I think about it, I believe I would have been more determined in fighting to
change a system that was thwarting my children's chances of a decent life, than any
'unjust' law that did not hit so close to home.
STEPH, I suspect climbing that fence at a federal installation made the difference.
I doubt they would have arrested the women for simply picketing. But you're right.
A woman with small children who need her cannot afford to risk too much. She has
very important prior responsibilities.
-
In reading Marcie's latest email I read with interest the TALKING HEADS and the latest comments I feel I would enjoy this very much ......For some reaspn and I dont know why except my parents purchased a larger home becasue my arrival was going to change family size from 5 to 6 it was an integrated neighborhood ( this was 1927) although I never realized ..everyone seemed to get along I never heard anyone say anything dertogatory and was really surprised as I grew older how some people spoke against anyone who wasnt like them...but not in the neighborhood itself....The only word I ever heard was NEGRO and it was always said the same way IRISH OR POLISH< JEWISH GERMAN ETC WAS SAID NO SUGGESTION THAT ANY OF THEM MIGHT BE PREDJUDICIAL I came away with the idea that ALL PEOPLE WHEREVER WHOMEVER COLOR OR RELIGEOUS WERE GOD"S CHILDREN AND ALL WERE EQUAL ..I am glad because as I grew up I met many humans of different nationalities , color, opinion,,,etc and I became friends with all..and it has made my life so much more interesting and joyful...back later to see what direction you are taking....sincerely anna
-
Here is a link to an article in today's Charlotte Observer by Eric Frazier entitled "My night in a slave cabin," which clearly brings back to the modern reader the practices of slavery throughout the region. The link below is a clear indication that people of color today are often reminded of the heritage of their forebears in developing regions of the USA (particularly in the South) and how it still affects them.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/10/15/1763946/my-night-in-a-slave-cabin.html
ANNA - Like you, I was introduced to people of various racial, ethnic, cultural and religious backgrounds very early in life. I always took much pleasure throughout the years in learning about their families, customs, and how they interacted with neighbors, in schools, home neighborhoods, serving in the military, establishing (and developing) their own businesses and seeking employment from a wide range of employers. I was born in Los Angeles, CA, lived in more than 30 areas of the USA and abroad during my life, but it was NOT until moving to the American South several yeas ago that I became clearly aware that racial discrimination was still alive and well. It has been a saddening experience and one that I can only believe is due in part - STILL - to the customs and habits of past generations, which carried over to the current time, as well as the lack of encouragement to learn otherwise from families, schools, elected officials and others. In numerous conversations when I've mentioned something from the days of Martin Luther King or quoted something from one of his public presentations, many of the folks I am addressing get a fixed look in their eyes and a certain set to their lips or jawbone, which indicates to me that they are NOT interested or very much displeased with my comments.
Mahlia
-
Talking Heads #11
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online:
bring your ideas and let's discuss.
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
9th topic - Oct.25 ~ Campaign Mudslinging
Mudslinging by Candidates (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/editorials/stories/2010/10/16/mudslinging-by-candidates-is-of-no-use-to-voters.html?sid=101) (Columbus Dispatch)
~~~
Does mudslinging before an election affect how you vote? If so, in what way?
Do you know how much is spent on these ads?
How better to use the money?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/mudslinging.jpg)
| |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
-
Thanks, Jean, for the article on women in the Civil Rights movement. The only women I remember were Rosa Parks and Angela Davis. Will have to read more.
I did not march in demonstrations back then, altho. I wanted to protest the Vietnam War. But I was a single mom with two small boys and couldn't afford to risk jail or loss of my job.
Marj
-
Rosa Parks immortalised in song. Have a listen - great song.
Album: Yellow Moon
SISTER ROSA PARKS
by The Neville Brothers
December 1, 1955, our freedom movement came alive. And because of Sister Rosa you know, we don’t ride on the back of the bus no more.
Sister Rosa Parks was tired one day
after a hard day on her job.
When all she wanted was a well deserved rest
Not a scene from an angry mob.
A bus driver said, "Lady, you got to get up
cuz a white person wants that seat."
But Miss Rosa said, "No, not no more.
I’m gonna sit here and rest my feet."
Chorus
Thank you Miss Rosa, you are the spark,
You started our freedom movement
Thank you Sister Rosa Parks.
Thank you Miss Rosa you are the spark,
You started our freedom movement
Thank you Sister Rosa Parks.
Now, the police came without fail
And took Sister Rosa off to jail.
And 14 dollars was her fine,
Brother Martin Luther King
knew it was our time.
The people of Montgomery sit down to talk
It was decided all gods’ children should walk
Until segregation was brought to its knees
And we obtain freedom and equality, yeah
Chorus
Thank you Miss Rosa, you are the spark,
You started our freedom movement
Thank you Sister Rosa Parks.
We’ll sing it again
Thank you Miss Rosa, you are the spark,
You started our freedom movement
Thank you Sister Rosa Parks.
So we dedicate this song to thee
for being the symbol of our dignity.
Thank Sister Rosa Parks.
Chorus 2x
-
Hmm, I have live all over the US and e specially in the south, but the most prejudice I ever knew and heard was the 10 years around Boston, Ma.. Now that city really really has hates.. I was appalled at what I would hear.. Not just black, but Irish as well. Amazing. I lived in Columbia, SC and although this was the late 50's and it was not yet integrated, there was a good deal of gentle civility involved. I know that bad things also happened, but I was impressed with the caring of so many of the people. Southerners also do not take well to what they perceive as outsiders telling them what they do wrong..
-
WELCOME, FAIRANNA. We're only doing 'Three Day Wonders' for the month of October, but
you'll have a chance to comment on at least three more topics.
Annna & Mahlia, the civil rights movement is certainly the most high profile example of protest against unjust laws in our day. I would say it is the most historically significant for America since the American Revolution.
STEPH, offhand I would say there is no group that really appreciates an outsider coming
in an telling them they're wrong. Unfortunately, in some situations, there is no one
else they're going to hear it from. Attitudes that are inculcated from childhood are
very hard to dislodge.
Another unjust law that irks me )though I'm not sure technically that it is a law),
is the right of senators to vote themselves pay raises and outrageous retirement income,
and no one can do a thing about it.
-
Babi - you reminded me of a senator's right to block any appointment, that's nothing more than an ego booster-"I'm doing it, because I have the power to do it." apparently that has happened to hundreds of Obama's nominations, so those positions remain vacant........Jean
-
Unfortunately it seems CONGRESS can write any law they wish ............and in my opinion the Constitution never was meant for lifetime service but an opportunity for a term or two service and that would allow someone else to SERVE his country
Mahalia I visited every since I was six and my Aunt Nora and Uncle Reed included me in all their month long vacations to many states and all the wonders of travel I had to keep a journal but it whet my appitite for travel and when I married he was a young man from PA who was going to school on the GI bill was in ROTC and eventually became a pilot in the USAF ..the places I didnt visit with my relatives I did with my husband including 4 years in Europe where we moved 3 times and saw much of Europe and 2 years on Okinawa The military was intregated and that felt RIGHT TO ME>>I defended Muslims when thd Oklahoma disaster occured because we didnt know right away but I think it unfair to say someone did something until we know the truth ..and I think tatooing became popular becasuse of WWII all the men who sailed to battle and crossed I am not sure but the meridian had a choice either get a tatoo or wear an earing...my husband chose earing but when you realize WWll was barely over than we were involved in Korea and then Viet Nam I think those that served in those wars just followed the custom of tatooing since my knew people who had them One person I know who had a tatoo from WWll said when I asked him about his tatoo he said it was a mistake lol he didnt want one but everyone was getting one and he just followed them My one son and his wife who are very successful have tatoos he has a goose taking off on a fall evenng on the biceps of one arm and his wife had a small rose on her shoulder BUT he investigated to make sure the artist was registred and licensed and took proper precautions The only other child of mine (0ut 0f 4 2 0f each) the youngest girl decided to get a belly ring which became infected so that was the end of that..I know I rode on the back of a motorcyle when I was 16 and my mother never objected which still surprises me ...looking forward to the 3 day discussions anna
-
Our son had heard us make disparaging comments re: tattoos, but I hadn't talked to him about them directly. Apparently they were the rage of the college football team he was on. When he came home for the summer I saw him and his Dad having a conversation in his bedroom. When I stopped in, he showed me his tattoo - it was our anniversary, he had gotten a tat that looked like the "ring" around the bicep that I had seen the guys wearing; I said "ohhhh"in a negative tone of voice........then he said "look, mom".......and it was my name and my husband's name around the bicep........what could I say? It almost made me cry........Jean
-
Our Eleventh Topic:
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
Seventh topic - Oct.19 ~ What Should Be Done about Bad Judge Decisions ?
Judicial Mis-rule (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10680963)
What Can the Public Do with a Bad Judge?
How supreme is a judge's power in his own court?
What recourse do we we have when a judge abuses that power
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/badjudge.jpg)
| |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
-
I would guess my first question is who decides what is a bad decision. I have certainly seen some, especially in Florida, but I know people who think the Surpreme court made all sorts of bad decisions .. They werent bad, but only what the people did not want.
-
STEPH, you can click on "Judicial Misrule" above and find the item that triggered this topic.
Or...this would likely be quicker... here it is: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10680963
Oh, drat!! I had another link that listed legal recourse in case one wants to appeal a judicial ruling, but when I re-checked the site it was no longer available. I tried to find something similar, but with no luck. >:
Have any of you run into courtroom decisions that raised your ire? Was anything done about
them?
-
Too many people here get name suppression. I get absolutely riled about it. The link above especially riled me!
-
We do have some extremely odd judges here in Florida. Anytime you get to vote for who you want as judge, you get popularity contests.
-
I do know we have the right in our courts to appeal a juge's ruling. Sometimes, unfortunately,
a judge will rule out of his own views, mood, etc. Judges have been known to take an action
just because they felt like it and they could.
If the decision handed down by a jury is appealed, it can only be reviewed on the basis of a point of law; the judge's legal rulings. The jury's verdict cannot be appealed.
Carolyn says name suppression happens often in New Zealand. I don't know of any instance
where that has happened here, but it may have. Anyone know?? It seems odd to permit name
suppression to people who have been found guilty of something. You would think public safety
required letting people know. Can you imaging suppressing the name of a known child molester,
for instance?
-
I just read the above ruling by a New Zealand Court and I have never heard of such a thing as "name suppression" in a court. It shouldn't happen. That court decision should have been appealed to a higher court in my opinion where another judge could have made a better decision.
The public has a right to know - well, that is, except in newspaper articles where we are always reading such phrases as "allegedly" or "informed opinion" etc. However, that differs greatly from court opinion.
-
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
Eighth topic - Oct.22 ~ Don't Ask, Don't Tell?
Don't Ask, Don't Tell - No Longer In Effect - for Now (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=don%27t+ask%2C+don%27t+tell&ei=UTF-8&fr=chrf-ytbm)
Judge reaffirms ruling allowing gays into military (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39743668/?GT1=43001)
Pentagon trying to change culture to allow gays (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101020/ap_on_re_us/us_gays_in_military)
What do you think?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/dontaskdonttell_lgst.jpg)
| |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
-
Oh, dear, it looks like I lost my last post on the subject of unfair rulings by judges. It included a
link about instances in which a name might be suppressed in American courts. I can't find that
one, but here is a current item on changes that may be coming. http://www.simpsongrierson.com/latest-publications/
Now, on to the topic that's been hot the past week..."Don't ask. Don't tell." This has always
seemed a reasonable approach to me. It means first of all that the subject is not everybody's
business, and secondly, it tended to protect such soldiers from the abuse of some of their
fellow soldiers. The military wanted to drop this policy. And apparently the more 'militant' of
the gay community wanted more openness. For very different reasons, apparently.
There can be no argument that a gay soldier can be as courageous and reliable a battle comrade as any other. That has been thoroughly demonstrated. So the problem is...????
-
Don't ask, don't tell did sound reasonable - but it failed when people were "not telling", but got "outed" for some reason or another. In any case, IMO, it should be a non-issue. Just like whether or not someone has red hair or is of a different ethnic background. It's not like being gay is something that's a choice.
-
Yes, Y es, Mary Z.. It is maddening that this is an issue. It is simply not partof what we choose to do for a living. Soldiers are just like everyone else and should have the priviledge or acting and loving whoever they want.. The military of course is almost always extremely macho..and conservative.
But if I were gay and in the military, I would be very very quiet until this is settled.
-
I agree with MARY & STEPH, this should be a non-issue, but that viewpoint is fairly recent for
our country. And as STEPH so accurately pointed out, the military tends to be a very 'macho'
outfit. I can't help but feel that an in-your-face approach by the gay community is the most
practical or useful approach. Attitudes are changing. Perhaps they should give it a little more time.
-
I agree with all of you! But particularly with BABI when she said - "Attitudes are changing. Perhaps they should give it a little more time. "
Why is that so? Is it the fundamental change in our religious background?
There was a time, perhaps there is still, when bible verses were quoted when the subject came up. My sister was one of those and I'm not sure about a change in her attitude . We learned (I learned?) a long time ago not to discuss religion with her or her husband and as she lives in AZ and I see her infrequently, although we email, it is not a problem.
The younger generation are more relaxed, more liberal, and sometimes I wonder if that is good or not, but their attitude toward gay people has my support. Why would gay folk want to be gay? It's a hard life and it is not a choice with them, I believe.
-
Babi - the problem w/ DADT is not whether the soldier wants or doesn't want his/her fellow soldiers to know he/she is gay, the problem is that if the soldier says he/she is gay they can be discharged from the service. It's still not acceptable to be gay under DADT. Many European countries have "allowed" gays to serve for yrs, even decades, with no problems.
All of the arguments against gays have been the same as they were against integrated forces when Harry Truman said the forces would be racially integrated, and when women were to be integrated into the services: "they will be a distraction", "enlisted personnel will not take orders from__________", "it will destroy teamwork of the service", etc. etc. Some of that has been true, but when your superiors say "this is what I expect you to do," it happens. The army was the first truly racially intergrated institution in the country, and altho the navy, in particular, has had major problems of harassment of women, it hAppened because navy officers did not make it clear your career was on the line if that was you didn't follow policy.
Jean
-
In my opinion, homosexuals are just normal human beings. The DADT is one more form of discrimination. The attitude of our country, until recently, has been both hurtful and unfair to gays. I believe that God made us all, and some of us are straight, and others are gay. I really do not care who someone else decides to love, and live with. I prefer no public display of foreplay by anyone.
Sheila
-
Oh Sheila, I am with you. I so dislike public displays,, gay ... straight..whatever.. Try hard to simply act normal.. Save the passion for private.. It would be soooonice.
-
Good point, JEAN. This is not the first time 'integration' has been an issue in the
armed forces. Actually, I can understand why that would be so. Where being able to
depend on the person watching your back is so vital, people would naturally be reluctant
at introducing an unknown quantity. Each new group has had to demonstrate their reliability
as well as their ability. I think the latest 'group' has certainly done that on the
battlefields. So the remaining issue is - what? Personal and social?
I note your point about Navy officers not making it clear harrassment would not be
tolerated. The "official" stnce needs to change.
You are right, ELLA. While there may be some people of a mindset where 'anything goes',
for the most part sexual orientation is not a choice. And it's been around as long as
people have existed, apparently. For those who take the religious stand that "God
did not create them Adam and Steve", I would point out that Christ said "some are born
eunuchs". That's the only thing Jesus ever said that remotely touched on the subject.
I think SHEILA summed it up very nicely.."God made us all".
And yes, please, please, please, save swarming all over one another for a private arena!
I can't help believing people who do that are deliberately amusing themselves with in-your-face
behavior.
-
I can't help but wonder if we really understand why this is so important to the gay community. The only thing accomplished here (and its so important) is that the gays in the military can admit to their their gayness and not be thrown out of the service.
Jean has mentioned that they do now get thrown out for other rule breaking but that the real reason is that they have been found out to be gay.
Its a disgrace that we can't admire the bravery that it takes to join the military and protect our country while trying to hide their preferences in social and private lives. So the gays are doubly brave.
To say they have a choice is another slap in the face. Who would choose to be gay?
-
I worked for Dept of Army for two decades, starting in the 80's when the status of women was being decided. By that time Black males had made it to general officer status. There were still people who discriminated against Blacks, therefore the need for EEO offices that investigated any charges, but if the commander/chief of staff emphasized equality, that was the policy of the installation.
I heard more than one male service member say "the best commander I ever had was a woman at..........." I heard the argument from older officers saying that men would be trying to protect women on their team in combat. I heard a woman who trained helicopter pilots - at the time she couldn't fly copters in combat, but she could train men to fly in combat - say if her copter went down the guys in her team would step on her to get out. She was laughing about it, but made her point. Because she wasn't allowed to be in combat she was less likely to get promoted than a male.
One day, about 1984, the commander, a general in his 50's, in the casual atmosphere of the officer's club, said, gleefully, to me "well, we got rid of the army 'qu...' today." A gay man on an installation a thousand miles away had been publicly dishonorably discharged that day. It seemed a huge over reaction to me, but perhaps typical for that time.
Service personnel in uniform are not allowed to touch another in uniform, other than handshakes, so public displays will not be a problem. There would probably be as much sexual harassment as heterosexuals have had; women have learned how to handle that in most cases, so men should be able to learn how also. .............Jean
-
I have read enough stories about Iraq, etc and our females being harassed to make me wondor about military life and women in a war zone.. I would guess it comes from the macho nonsense that they love to spread around.. Too many rapes of other service people.
The nonsense of living in barracks with gays is silliness. Gays are not really into coming on to straights..
-
JEAN, once again you have touched on a key point
...if the commander/chief of staff
emphasized equality, that was the policy of the installation.
I have observed that to be true in most any institution. The head man/woman and the
staff leadership set the tone. I worked for years as a nursing home inspector, and
who occupied the Administrators and DON's position made all the difference in what we
found.
If the military really wants to find a solution to this problem, it would seem that the place
to begin would be with their own senior echelons. And perhaps this is what ANNIE was saying, as to why this current push for a change is so important to the gay community. They feel the
time has come for the military to make that adjustment.
-
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
9th topic - Oct.25 ~ Campaign Mudslinging
Mudslinging by Candidates (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/editorials/stories/2010/10/16/mudslinging-by-candidates-is-of-no-use-to-voters.html?sid=101) (Columbus Dispatch)
~~~
Does mudslinging before an election affect how you vote? If so, in what way?
Do you know how much is spent on these ads?
How better to use the money?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/mudslinging.jpg)
| |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
-
AH, YES. It's Monday, the 25th, and we have a new topic on the board. Political mudslinging!
We're seeing far more of it in the gubernatorial campaign here in Texas, and I'm really fed up
with it. Perry started it, and my first reaction was "If that's all he can find to say about Bill White
the guy must be a near saint!" More was coming, tho', and White felt forced to retaliate in kind.
Wasted money? You know it!
I take a jaundiced view of all poliical ads. Have you noticed how the photos always seem to
support the charges being made? The ad-men have hundreds of photos of every person who
is regularly in the news. They run through them and pick a photo image that seems to fit their
needs. That grimace you see on a candidate's face might have been an incipient sneeze!
Personally, the nastier a candidate gets, the more I like his opponent.
-
Like the author of the article, I too am fed up with political races. And I really can't ever remember a MID-TERM election like this. Yes, of course it is the OTHER party; they're so gross. But I also blame the media. It's like there is nothing else to talk about.
And frankly, Babi, no offense meant, but I really don't need to hear so much about the political races in Texas, and I don't want to, nor in Ohio, or MIchigan or a million other places. If the witch in Deleware loses, who's even going to remember her. It really blew my mind when Meet the Press, which I like so much, had a debate between two senatorial candidates from some state that I don't remember.
As for the political mail, it goes in the recycling box where it might do some good. I don't need biased sources for my information.
I would like to see t his country governed, but right now it seems impossible.
-
AREN'T WE ALL SICK - JUST SO SICK OF THEM? THESE TERRIBLE NEGATIVE ADS!! THEY SEEM WORSE THIS YEAR AND DEFINITELY ARE TURNING UP MORE OFTEN ON TV AS WE HEAR HOW MUCH MORE MONEY IS BEING SPENT ON THEM.
IF JUST ONE CANDIDATE WOULD SAY THAT HE/SHE WAS GIVING HIS/HER SHARE OF CAMPAIGN SPENDING TO A GOOD CAUSE THAT PERSON WOULD GET MY VOTE.
IF OBABA GOT OUT THE WORD ON THE INTERNET THAT HIS CAMPAIGN NEEDED MONEY (AND HE DID AND HE GOT IT) THEN THE INTERNET IS THE WAY TO GO WITH THIS, I THINK.
So we must - everywhere - blogging, whatever - state our views on these negative ads.
-
There was a recent article in our local newspaper which illustrated how one couple - both retired and dealing with major health issues - continue to "reach out" to help the community. They have limited incomes (as do thousands in the USA now), will not receive an increase in either their SS checks or pensions (which applies across the USA), but STILL want to contribute (as they are able) to help others. The fellow, now getting around in a wheel chair, and the wife walking with a cane and having to take several "rest periods" each day, volunteer a few hours at a couple of local sites: helping to refinish donated furniture (he) and preparing modest lunches (she) for folks who need food. They have given up some of their "treats" in order to use the $$ for donations to their church and a couple of local charities. The article ended with the couple assuring the readers that they would continue to contribute time and $$ as long as possible, because "it's the right thing to do for us." They also mentioned that although they try to stay as informed as possible RE the nominees for their local elected offices, they are "truly confused" about whom to vote for, since there seemed to be so much controversy among the candidates.
My kind of folks!
Mahlia
-
We mute all commercials, but are particularly glad to have the mute-button during political season. I never pay any attention to anything of that stuff. I think all political ads should be limited to the six week prior to an election. And none of that stuff influences my vote (which I've already cast during our early voting period).
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all that money that's being spent on TV ads were spent to help communities?!?!
p.s. I'm loving these 3-day discussions! Thanks.
-
And that's the truth, Persian. Many of the younger folks feel the same way. My dr's secretary, at age 50 or less, remarked to me last week, that she will not be voting this year because she doesn't know who is right in the battles that are streaming onto our TV's and in the newspapers plus YouTube, blogs,
Twitter, etc etc! It is really a mess here in our state. We have 8 independants, well, Libertarians running for the bigger offices and one wonders what that will cause over all. I have no idea what Libertarians stand for so looked it up and its the same political jargon that the other parties use. Lower taxes, smaller government and one other that I forget.
-
The incredible part of this issue is that EVERYONE says they hate negative commercials, but apparently they work!?! I'm sure campaigns have "focus grouped" potential commercials and gotten results that lead them to be negative........Jean
-
We also use that MUTE button for most ads and all political ads. We voted early with no input from TV or Internet ads. All those millions of dollars used for the political ads could be a lot of help to food banks, etc.
-
Yes, JEAN, I have heard they work also! On whom, I wonder?
Like PEDLIN stated, I, too, throw all the paper political junk that comes in my mailbox away! I mute the commercials also if I see them. One night about 4 weeks ago I called Time Warner and got HBO and ShowTime on my TV, neither of which I had ever had, and there are NO COMMERCIALS - just programming. Some I like, some not, but NO COMMERCIALS!
It's wonderful, so I will not watch any of the news programs, which are saturated with political news, or the other programs at all.
It seems as if America is too puffed up right now with itself and has forgotten that there is a world outside its borders and that the public would like to be informed as to what is going on.
-
We tend to watch the international news (airs at 6:30 our time on 3 national stations and at 11 p.m. on the BBC), but NOT the local news. The latter is just plain too gory almost every night: numerous child molestations (by men AND women, as well as young pre-teens and teens), attacks on women of varying ages in public places, kidnapping, murder and mutilation of the bodies. I learned several years ago, when we first relocated to our current home (about 20 miles NE of Charlotte, NC) that there seemed to be much more horrific types of crime hereabouts than what I recalled from other areas in which I've lived.
In the past few months, as the local folks are getting ready for their elections as well as preparing for the National ones, the stories of the "past history" of elected officials have become truly gruesome. I wonder if it is just the region or have I truly had my head in the clouds all these years? The types of crimes seem to be so terribly heinous - some that I think of in relation to ancient times, NOT the current world we live in.
Mahlia
-
Talking Heads #11
"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting..."
Herbert Bayard Swope, creator of the Op-Ed page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/graphics/talkingheads.jpg)
A forum for opinions on anything in print: magazines, newspaper articles, online:
bring your ideas and let's discuss.
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
10th Topic - Oct.28 ~ Objectionable Books in Our Schools?
Bad Books in Schools (http://www.pabbis.com/)
The Good, The Bad and the Inapropriate (http://education.families.com/blog/the-good-the-bad-and-the-inappropriate-which-books-should-be-banned-from-your-childs-school-library/)
~~~
We all monitored what our children were reading at home; shouldn't we know what they're reading at school as well?
How can we recognize special interest groups promoting their own agenda?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/librarytalking.jpg)
| |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
ANNIE - speaking of younger folks contributing . . . there was a brief news report on TV last night that a young boy celebrating his 5th birthday requested that NONE of his friends bring gifts to his party, but that "they contribute money (if they wish) to local programs to help others." In that way, he and his friends raised $288. The contributions were counted and the parents made sure that the money was donated to a charity. In front of the camera, the birthday boy simply said "I just don't need anything more, but others do." What a boy to be truly proud of!
Mahlia
-
There are two women running for governor in Oklahoma. Up until last week, the campaigning had been very friendly, both campaigns had a postive focus on what the speaker planned to do, etc. However, during the past few days, things have begun to get tacky - bordering on nasty.
If one listens closely, one will realize that the critical comments are more or less "hints", not verified statements.
This is happening in several state races.
I will not listen to any more of this drivel!
Mahlia, our local news is full of the same kind of "awfulness". One station's newscasters will begin with a breathless, "Now, listen to this..." or "You're not going to believe this..."
I sit there muttering to myself, "I don't have to if I don't want to" and" Then why bother telling me?". >:(
-
Ah Yes, mudslinging works on a certain type of people. The ones who say ,, they printed it or said it, so it must be true.. They also buy those newspapers at checkout in the supermarket. You all know what I mean. Florida is a dirty dirty campaign.. All that money spent...for nothing but evil and anger.
-
Of course the political races in Texas are of no interest to non-Texans, PEDLN, but they are an example of the sort of thing we're complaining about. I have no idea who the 'witch in Delaware' is, but you have my sympathy. May she lose!
It would be lovely, ELLA, but unfortunately it seems to be a fact that too many voters do little serious research on the candidates. When they get into the voting booth, they seem to vote for the names they recognize...and guess why they recognize them? PERSIAN's sweet couple try to be informed, but the controversy just multiplies the confusion.
I'm so glad you're enjoying the talks, MARYZ. I'm all in favor of your suggestion. What do you say we each write our Congressional representatives asking for a law to limit the campaigning and advertising time. Six weeks is certainly enough time. Of course, those already in office have an advantage. They can early stage photo ops on whatever
they're doing, and deny it's campaigning.
I think horrific crimes can be found anywhere, MAHLIA. What the local news chooses to focus on depends pretty much on the mindset of the local publishers. Some choose the 'blood sells; sex sells more' policy. In Houston, the one remaining 'big' paper is mostly sports and the good life. The news is buried in a small section somewhere in the middle. I don't really understand why they call it a newspaper anymore.
ELLA, FLAJEAN, et al , the local branches of some political organizations offer aids to voters, like pamphlets that list the candidates for each of the offices and factual information about their backtround and political careers. Some ask pertinent questions of the candidates, and print the answers they receive. Now those, I have found helpful.
-
BABI, we have those kind of pamphlets in our libraries - Voters Guides, etc. for anyone to pick up and be informed. And our local paper did print a Voters Guide but it just showed what was going to be on the ballot.
I do want our libraries to succeed in all their ventures but they are asking for a tremendous boost in revenue and it comes out of our real estate taxes. I have always voted for a library bond but lately with everything going up in price and my money at a standstill I am wondering????????
-
All I can say is, "Thank goodness for my DVR!" I DVR'd all programs that I regularly watch and simply start watching them 15 minutes late. That way I can ff through all the commercials and the thousands of political ads. It almost makes a person not want to vote! However, my mother used to say that if you didn't vote, you couldn't complain; and I certainly want the right to complain!
Sally
-
AMEN, Sally!
-
SALLY, I am doing the same thing. The woman who is running for Governor in California, is a millionaire, and she is pouring much of her wealth into commercials. Sigh.
We also have two women runniing for the Senate. They became nasty several weeks ago. I am sick and tired of all of them! So, I am recording all of the programs that I want to watch, and ff through the commercials.
From what I have read, and heard, politics has often been nasty. But, the amount of nasty ads is overwhelming. Every program has them. I am really looking forward to November 3rd!
Sheila
-
My daughter and I do a lot of that, also, SALLY. She really hates sitting through
commercials. I wonder if the advertisers realize how much consumer attention they lost
when we got 'record'?
Meanwhile, why don't we make our arguments known? I haven't heard from anybody here
who think these political ads are a good thing. I think it most likely the majority...if not all... viewers feel the same way. So...why don't we write our representatives asking for a law limiting
campaigning to the six weeks preceeding an election? (I say write...I prefer to e-mail. My
handwriting, after all these years of swift typing, is pretty well illegible. )
What other limitations do you think we could reasonably ask for?
-
OK this was a fun chit chat to read about political advertising -
Long ago I printed off these quotes and have them in one of these inexpensive stand alone plastic frames on top of my TV.
Advertisers are the interpreters of our dreams -- Joseph interpreting for Pharaoh. Like the movies, they infect the routine futility of our days with purposeful adventure. Their weapons are our weaknesses: fear, ambition, illness, pride, selfishness, desire, ignorance. And these weapons must be kept as bright as a sword.
E(lwyn) B(rooks) White
Advertisers cannot be honest without admitting that its constructive contribution to humanity is exactly minus zero.
Anonymous
Advertising is a valuable economic factor because it is the cheapest way of selling goods, particularly if the goods are worthless.
Sinclair Lewis
My attitude has become first, if the political advertising is getting to me than I ask myself what of these weakness buttons are they hitting (fear, ambition, illness, pride, selfishness, desire, ignorance)
And second, I would rather pat them on the head and let them think all that money from lobbyists that they are spending on TV - at least I can see a result - useless TV ads - stop that and no telling what new way they will attempt to buy my vote plus, if we request an alteration in communication then God knows what they will justify next that should be kept off national TV to pamper the sensibilities of a public who sees how worthless representatives become once they move to D.C..
-
BABI - while thinking about which limitations to request, we might also think about requesting elected officials to better support learning opportunities for new votes. For example, there are multiple thousands of new citizens across the USA every year and many are NOT well educated RE the voting process, how to become acquainted with the prospective candidates in their areas and what to look for in a person's professional background or specific interest which make them stand out among their fellow candidates - or those who are thinking of placing their names in the game of politics.
Many years ago, I taught citizenship classes to international folks in Montgomery County, Maryland. Many of them had little or no knowledge about the government workings at the local, State and Federal levels, so as we discussed the various elements involved in becoming a citizen, I broadened the info about those areas to include what it means to be an American. The classes were held at a local Jewish community Center and many of the students were Jews from Iran and Russia. Interspersed were regular comments RE the issues of governments in those countries, as well as the responsibility of the students to learn as much as possible RE American citizenship. In the first couple of weeks, the students were hesitant to pose questions, but when I brought in a couple of local folks who were running for local offices the students became much more willing to pose their questions. I recall one student asking me "we REALLY can pose questions to them without getting in trouble?" You betcha, and the more questions the better!
So perhaps for a future discussion, you might consider how to REALLY get folks involved in local issues; what they need to know about their proposed representatives (and WHY), as well as what it means to be able to actually vote for the person you think will do the best job. Just a thought, but in any election period there will be plenty of folks who are NOT fully informed about the potential candidates; those who are informed ONLY about their own favorite and take every opportunity to criticize others; and some who absolutely refuse to learn beyond their own front gate.
Mahlia
-
The Brits regulate both the money spent and the time allowed on their elections. This would suit me fine. Just now in my state, we have at least one billionaire running for no reason other than he has tons of money to spend.. I really have strong emotions about just throwing money around for elections. There are too many places that need it much much more.
-
3 DAY WONDERS - topics and articles provided every three days by YOU, our readers.
10th Topic - Oct.28 ~ Objectionable Books in Our Schools?
Bad Books in Schools (http://www.pabbis.com/)
The Good, The Bad and the Inapropriate (http://education.families.com/blog/the-good-the-bad-and-the-inappropriate-which-books-should-be-banned-from-your-childs-school-library/)
~~~
We all monitored what our children were reading at home; shouldn't we know what they're reading at school as well?
How can we recognize special interest groups promoting their own agenda?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/talkheads/librarytalking.jpg)
| |
Contact: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com) - (Head Honcho)
-
BARB, MAHLIA, STEPH.... well said. I was pleased to see the response this topic
received. Not a single poster had anything good to say about political advertising. I
would imagine that fairly represents the majority opinion in the country.
Here are two new links on our final topic. Objectionable books in our schools...I'm
sure there probably are some. But..a book that would be objectionable for one age group
would not necessarily be so for the older students. And people with personal hobby
horses are going to have their own agendas for what books our students should, or should
not, be reading. I'm always leery of folks with a 'burn the books' attitude, but some
of the books in question seem 'questionable' even to me.
So, what do you think? My eyebrows go up when I see books like Toni Morrison's
"Beloved" and Richard Wright's "Black Boy" on the list. Again, what age group are we
talking about?
-
Babi, I agree that all books are not appropriate for all ages, BUT, the only censor that I trust is ME. ::)
-
Articles like those above (and they appear to be repeats of each other, taking you to the same place) certainly raise my ire. I don't have much time today, need to fix computer files and entertain a bridge group, but I will be back again and again.
As a former school librarian, all I can say is "Hurrah for Banned Book Week." And I'm proud to say we had many of those listed books in our library. Author Richard Peck -- the kids loved his books and I remember when he came and spoke to local librarian group here -- talking about 7th graders -- "Big women, little men." He knew kids.
Libraries have PROCEDURES that people can follow if they object to a book, without inflicting their views on an entire school or community. The Internet makes this problem a whole lot worse because of the ease of communication. It used to be these special interest groups would mail a list of "bad books" to some other group 700 miles away, asking them to alert their community. Half the time they hadn't read the books, or if they had the message escaped them. Most of the time they scan them for dirty words.
-
H mm.. I grew up with wonderful parents. Their theme was.. read what you want.. ask questions.. no book in their library was banned to me. I did the same with my sons.. I dislike the banning of books to put it mildly.. I live in an area that is full of the god driven type churches ( so called by them).. So we get a lot of parents who want to withdraw all sorts of books including Harry Potter of course.. Books are the windows of the universe.. Ban them and you take away some of the flavor of life. People are different.. So they use swear words.. or talk of things that you dont like.. t his is their right.. Evil.. evil is the preacher who uses his church to preach going to funerals of our troops who have died with horrible signs blaming them.. That is evil..
-
Drat, I lost my post!
Well, in sum, I am most concerned over the charge that some current textbooks are
introducing people such as terrorists, as heroes. The specific book(s) are not, however,
identified.
I am inclined to trust the judgment of a trained librarian over that of self-appointed judges.
However, I don't think the librarians choose the textbooks and that is where many complaints
arise. What are the standards for selecting textbooks?
I found this link: http://www.textbookreviews.org/index.html?content=tb_rvws.htm.
It seems to be a well-researched and practical view of the subject, with answers to my
questions.
-
The choices of many textbooks all across the US are determined by the choices made by the state-wide commission that picks the books for the Texas systems. They buy so many books, more than any other single entity, that the publishers print for whatever they order. This is a link to one of several articles written last spring about some of their choices.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37271857/ns/us_news-life/
-
MaryZ,
That is another chilling story especially since these Texas school books are sold out of state to whomever wants to buy them.
No wonder more parents are considering Home Schooling. Buuuut, they are also guided by their school districts and their state school boards about which books they can teach and test from. So are we all controlled by our governments??? I would say so!
I have a good friend who writes and puts together science books for high school. She says you wouldn't believe the constraints that are put upon these writers. Lists and lists of NO NO are piled on their writing desks or they have them on the computer connected to a bookmarked page.
I read some of the lists from those links above in the header and found many books that I would have urged my children to read and will continue along with recommendations for my grans and ggrans!
-
Holy horrors. The Gablers are dead and gone, but their influence and their organization is still going strong. When you think about it, it's really scary to learn that this couple, Mel and Norma, with no experience in the education field, could sit at their kitchen table, analyze textbooks, critique them according to their own personal religious values, and the state of Texas buys their whole shebang. Allows them to influence curriculum for nigh unto FIFTY years. Now another member of their original mom and pop shop, a Mr. Frey, is carry on with their mission.
Perhaps in the coming years technology will save us and allow communities, schools, or even teachers to create their own instructional materials, or to update and revise basic texts to be used on e-readers.
-
I can't remember monitoring any book my child read, EVER! And they were both readers, read everything. Whatever they didn't learn by reading, their friends informed them. How can you possibly keep children from learning? The good, the bad.
Schools are another subject. I have no idea how best to choose books for schools, elementary, or advanced grades! Whatever schools decide, or however they decide, there will be criticisms.
-
I refused to buy a bond that was issued by the Texas School Depository. Very high interest, but I truly believe that their mission is horrible. They are the biggest sellers of school books.. and I suspect that most school books are chosen by committe and not of the teachers.. I can remember looking at my sons and wondering who the heck believed this stuff.
The history books were very very slanted. As my younger son used to say.. he never liked history until college and then he fell in love with it..
-
MARYZ, I think you have definitely hit on a key to the problem with that link. Here we have the Texas Board of Education, a political group, chopping up and "reshaping draft standards that had been prepared over the last year and a half by expert groups of teachers and professors." It would seem to me that after experts have spent a year and a half preparing their recommendations for schoolbooks, a group of politicians should not be allowed to rip it apart to fit their particular political stances. That needs to change.!
ELLA, while I tend to agree that young people should have considerable
freedom in choosing the books they want to read, I do think there are
instances where their immature judgment falls short. If a 9-yr. old, say,
comes across Uncle Harry's stash of porno, I would definitely step in.
Have a few things to say to Harry, as well!
A hard subject to deal with. The importance of intellectual freedom vs.
the possible poisoning of young minds. Young people do tend to accept
what they read as true, and sometimes it isn't. (Lord help us, there are still adults out there who think anything in a book must be true.) Sure,
they are still going to be influenced by their friends, but there we can at least encourage them to think for themselves.
-
The school district here, if I remember correctly, does year-long curriculum studies of the major subjects (Lang. Arts, Math, Science, Soc. St.) every five years and the other subjects every seven, with teacher representatives from all grade levels. The teachers choose the textbooks.
So there is some choice, but if all the textbooks have only the evaluation standards from ONE or TWO (California also) states, it is still a very limited choice.
-
I know that Florida has just changed their math standards ( again) and my grandson who was doing just fine with the old books is now bewildered and falling back. He simply does not grip the new way they are teaching it. I feel so sorry for him.. He is truly struggling and he did like math before this.
-
A round of applause, please! I closed out yesterday by sending e-mails on this subject to
the Texas Board of Education and both of the Texas senators. (I also mentioned that the manymembers of this discussion group agreed that the politicians should stay our of textbook selection.) I'm hoping the 'many' will gain their attention.
This is the final day of October; the final day of the 3-Day Wonders discussion. This is the
day to say whatever you like about whatever is on your mind and still unsaid. I'll be back in
this evening to wrap up. And meantime...HAPPY HALLOWEEN!
-
Eam laudēmus. Well done, Babi.
(Actually, I'm visualizing that picture of clapping hands, and would put it here if I knew where to find it.)
-
Thanks again, Babi, for a great discussion.
-
Yes, Babi, you have done a wonderful job of keeping us on topic and offering so many interesting subjects from ideas of our posters, discussion leaders and readers. Its really been fun. http://www.amazing-animations.com/animations/hands9.gif (http://www.amazing-animations.com/animations/hands9.gif)
-
Indeed this has been an interesting collection of viewpoints on several important topics. I've enjoyed the opportunity to read/learn, as well as participate.
As the Head Honcho changes hats at the stroke of midnight, what's next?
Best wishes to all! ;)
Mahlia
-
How gratifying, PEDLN. My first Latin compliment! My thanks to all of you for your splendid
contributions to discussions. You who participate are the ones who make any topic successful.
I'm not sure what will be next for Talking Heads, whether someone will introduce a new topic, or if they'll let it rest for the holidays. Meanwhile, I know we can expect something fun for the season. Watch for it!
-
Thank you Babi. This has been great fun. I agree that the every three days makes for a quick round of thought..
-
Thank you, STEPH. Fun, and definitely food for thought, too.
-
HERE IT IS, NOVEMBER lst, AND I HAVEN'T YET THANKED BABI FOR BEING SUCH A GRAND HH!!!
THANK YOU, IT'S BEEN SUCH FUN.
WE SHOULD DO IT NOW AND THEN.
WHEN THIS ELECTION IS OVER - IT WILL BE OVER TOMORROW WON'T IT?
I AM JUST _______TIRED OF IT!!!
-
Babi you even got me to make a contribution - testament to your choice of subject and skill as a discussion leader - thanks :-*
Ella this time it felt like they were bringing their teen age daily squabbles from D.C. into our living rooms to engage us in their exaggerations and 'he said, she said, they said' verbal battles - too bad the Constitution did not designate a Mom to step in and stop all this nonsense... Ah so - at least starting tomorrow we send them to their rooms...
-
Thanks Babi, great job, great topics!!!
Hey! Barb, have missed you, we must be on different sites these days.......Jean
-
Time to close this sesson of Talking Heads. Thanks for your comments! Stay tuned while we make the next selection.