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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May15-?
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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Welcome back to Ancient Greece. Or, if you haven't been here before, double welcome.
Our plan is to read three of the plays that got the most votes last year. They all feature women who take matters into their own hands (sometimes with tragic results), so I thought we could use that as a theme to bind the discussion together. But there's a lot more to talk about.
First on the menu is "Antigone" by Sophocles. Speeches from this play have been widely quoted both as jusrtification for civil disobedience and as a strong argument for obeying the rule of law. Which side will we take? Or can we balance them? What is Sophocles saying? What does it tell us about Athens at that time?
You can see, I can't wait!
Next comes "Agamemnon" by Aescylus. Those of you who read the Odyssey with us last year know the story of him and his wife Clytemnestra. Here we have a chance to meet her, and see what we think. As well as what we think of the dramatic power of Aescylus.
Last, I thought we could turn from tragedy and read a play with a happy ending. (What, a Greek play with a happy ending? yes, they did that, too!) Iphigenia in Tauris is not as well known as the other two, but I figure we need a break! (After we read Agamemnon, you're going to think I'm nuts: a story about Iphigenia with a happy ending? But you'll see!)
So are you game? there'll be plenty of good company, and of course wine to drink. Let us know who's going with us.
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Welcome, everyone. This is going to be fun.
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X
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Fry: I hope you're marking your spot, and not digging for buried treasure.
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;D ;D
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What a glorious and inspiring header we have ! Thank you, JoanK..
Although I lean toward ordering the Eglish translation of Antigone by Paul Woodruff, the decision is not fr off.
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Let us know what you get, Traude. At the moment, I've got a library book , translated by Dudley Fitts and Robert Fitzgerald, but I'd like to order something else. My favorite real live bookstore, Politics and Prose, let me down--didn't even have it.
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It IS exciting! I have had the pleasure of visiting the theatre (Aus/UK spelling) of Epidavros twice. It is a marvel in acoustics and a magnificent piece of architecture, and steeped in history and atmosphere. Sigh....
When I was a member of flickr I got to know several modern Greek folks. And, Yes, two of the ladies names were actually Iphigenia and Antigone. I have met several Greek 'Elenis; one Aphrodite; several Anastasias and more that I can't remember. The Greeks still live their myths.
btw I am going to see my doctor for my flu vaccine today and his name is Aristotle. He is not Greek, however, but Filipino.
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when does this start - I really want to continue with Bleak House but Antigone has been on my list forever and is one of those books I did not feel confident to tackle alone - Since I leave for most of June I am hoping Antigone will be read and discussed in May.
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WELCOME, ALL! We had planned to start May 15th so as not to interfere with the Dickens discussion too much. But we'll see if we can wait that long. In any case, Antigone will be discussed in May.
Here is a fascinating video about the theater (about 5 minutes):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNAM3PzGcow&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNAM3PzGcow&feature=related)
So you've been there, Rose? How exciting. Is it as dramatic in real life? The perfect setting to see the drama of life, death, and fate!
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I'm struck by the statement in the video that Greek theater was a musical experience! This is a whole dimention of greek culture that is lost to us since we don't know what Greek music sounded like. Perhaps we should think of these plays as being akin to our operatic tradition?
That makes me think of them differently. Are there any opera-lovers in the group? I am not one, but, correct me if I'm wrong, aren't operas watched/listened to differently than (non-operetic) drama? In opera, isn't the important thing the fusing of music and drama to create fulll expression of emotion and the human condition? In doing that, it does without some elements of other drama: subtle characterization, philosophical depth, complicated plots (in most cases).
What do you all think?
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Opera only started as a music form in the late 16th century - there is whole history of music that built from a single voice with a single melody to much later a double voice singing different but harmonic tunes - often the first choral groups, there would be one voice that sang what today we would call the melody and the other voices formed a backdrop that was like a drone - some of the early instruments are based on that system - like a 4 or 6 string Mountain Dulcimer that was played by striking all the strings and only noting the melody on one string so that the other strings create this drone sound - yes, like a bag pipe.
Seems to me there is Egyptian music - I would have to pull my books out again - but if so, Egyptian civilization is older than Greek Civilization - my guess is a chorus would be like the drone with one person either talking or with some melody telling the story - the drone sound could even be as a result of a spoken sound said in a certain tone and in unison.
Also, the sound would be different - the modes have Greek names - much Southern mountain music is in modes rather than our scales - a scale is a series of full notes and half notes or steps between each sound - a mode is only full notes that the start sounds like a note from our modern scale and then goes up with a different sound since there are no half notes.
The mode most often remembered by folks is the Dorian which is in full notes from what we know as E - to a higher E -
I understand the various modes were established given their names based on the sounds that folks or the tribes made from these various areas of ancient Greece
The various modes have a different over all sound - some melancholy some bright and still others somber so that certain kinds of music were assigned certain modes and given the mode the reason for the music is established -
Seems to me knowing the instruments would help although a chorus did not utilize an instrument for many centuries later. We know of a lyre, a pan pipe, a Kathara, most likely a drum but all instruments that are played as a single sound rather than in unison. I believe Opera came about after Sonatas and maybe even after symphonies were first written.
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Barb - Good summary there.
FYI - Chorus, Music, Drama are all Ancient Greek words. I could write them in Greek for you but I don't think it will mean anything to anyone, although it means a lot to me :)
JoanK - Like many places in Greece, Epidavros is not easy to describe. You really must visit. The famous acoustics ensure that even when sitting in the top row (and it is a very very big theatre) one can here a piece of paper being crumbled on stage. Only Australians dare to sing there, they say. Imagine listening to Joan Sutherland singing there? They still do have Greek plays in the summer months at Epidavros, but more often at the beautiful, although smaller, theatre near the Acropolis. That would be a once in a lifetime experience for me. Problem is that Athens is very hot in the summer months and the pavement burns. I can do without that as I live in a hot city. I prefer to visit early September and stay for at least 6 weeks. Unfortunately, my 2004 visit to Greece was my last. But I can still dream, and do, of Greece, and relive my experiences of everywhere I went when I look at my beloved photos and books.
btw The Musical equivalent (The Pythian Games) of the Olympic Games was held at Delphi in honour of Apollo.
http://www.ancienthistoryarchaeology.com/delphi.htm
I won't get started on how beautiful Delphi is. Just take my word for it. ::)
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An intriguing question, JoanK.
We know there was some form of music; and the lyre was known, and there is a representation of Apollo with his instrument.
I found a reference on the web which is quite detailed on the subject,. Unfortunately, my attempts to post the URL and make it clickable were not successful.
Here it is :
en.wikipedia/org/wiki/Music_of_ancient_Greece
More tomorrow
Traude
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To roshanarose:
The unforgivable has happened. I just made two mistakes in one line :o ??? ::)
See below:
can here a piece of paper being crumbled on stage
Should be:
can hear a piece of paper being crumpled on stage
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Rose: the unforgivable happens to me every day!
Traude: is this the site? Usual warning about Wiki: may not be reliable. But very interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_ancient_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_ancient_Greece)
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Here is the only example given that shows actual musical notation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Delphichymn.jpg
The musical nootation is very simple: (the occasional letters above the text) perhaps indicating a note for each word?
Apparently, music tried to get more complicated, according to te quotes from Plato. He sounds exactly like me, and every other Senior I know -- complaining that the music the young people are playing is terrible, not like it used to be! Some things never change!
Specifically, he says that the instrument player should play exactly the note that the singer is singing, and not throw in extra notes or beats. Not clear whether he is talking about an early development of harmony?
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In the drama class that I catch when I can on a local college TV station, the teacher was talking about the difference between theater and TV or movies. he made two interesting points: in watching Tv or a movie, you go into a passive, receptive mode. But in the theater, which requires both a live audience and live actors, the fact that your there live watching live people means you are more active: prepared for anything to happen.
Too bad we won't be able to see these plays live.
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In the other point, he was probablt thinking of European drama tradition, but I wonder if it applies to the Greeks. He said that theater originally had a religious purpose, and has never completely escaped that. it has some overtones of a religious ceremony.
What do you think? does that make sense?
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JoanK - Without researching the overtones of religious ceremony in Greek theatre I suppose you could categorise the Pythian Games at Delphi, devoted to music as having religious overtones. The Games were in honour of Apollo. But most likely other gods or goddesses were worshipped at Delphi. There were gods in everything for the Ancient Greeks. That is where the prefix Pan- has its origin as in pantheon. pantheistic etc. It is not to be confused with the great god Pan - who is responsible for our word "panic".
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HERE! Hopefully, I'll be picking up a copy of Antigone tomorrow. Let you
know what I find.
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Great!
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JoanK, thank you for posting the URL relative to Greek music in your reply # 17. t
I have been mindful of the caveat ever since I found disturbing inaccuracies on line in dates of European history and biographical notations pertainig to some European writers. Years ago some of the information presented on line seemed to have been copied straight from encyclopedias or possibly textbooks, and was easily recognizable as such.
My books (paperbacks) arrived today : Antigone, translated by Paul Woodruff, and the Oresteia by Aeschylus in a translation by Robert Fagles. The Oresteia contains three plays : Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers, The Eumenides.. I needed Agamemnn and wanted the translation by Fagles, but couldn't get Agamemnon alone. The prices were moderate and, in order to take advantage of free shipping, I ordered two more books by Elaine Pagels.
I've only had time to leaf through Antigone and am absolutely delighted with Woodruff's excellent translation.
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Great!
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Antigone is the third play in a trilogy known as Sophocles' Theban Plays, preceded by Oedious the King, aka Oedipus Rex), and Oedipus a Colonus. Antigone is set in the same location as the preceding play (Thebes) and has the same characters. The play opens at a moment of high tension and anxious uncertainty.
To my knowledge, the printed translations include an introduction with background, but the online version does not seem to have one. But there's no reason to worry, for Edith Hamilton's Mythology is a most reliable guide.
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I selected my Antigone at the library yesterday. They had three different translations. One I did
not like as he chose to tranlate 'modern', using contractions like 'that's'. I want my translations
to sound more like ancient Greek. A second translator, from his foreword and commentary,
seemed a little too pleased with his own cleverness. (I'll mention no names.) My translater
of choice is H. D. F. Kitto. Never heard of him, but apparently he is a British scholar who has
written several books on the Greeks and Greek tragedy.
My first surprise, from the introduction, was to learn that all three of these Sophocles tragedies
take place over the course of one day. That's plunging right into the story, isn't it? :o
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" all three of these Sophocles tragedies take place over the course of one day".
This is part of the Greek theory of drama, that calls for "unity of time and place".
There's lots of background we'll need for these plays, both in terms of plot and in terms of Greek drama. Don't worry, It'll all be here.
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To my knowledge, the printed translations include an introduction with background, but the online version does not seem to have one. But there's no reason to worry, for Edith Hamilton's Mythology is a most reliable guide.
I can recommend Hamilton's Mythology to anyone who wants a book of that sort, but it has one drawback--it tends to hide in corners. ;) I own 3 copies. I bought one many years ago on the advice of a friend who was getting her Master's degree in Classical Studies. When we discussed The Iliad, I couldn't find my copy anywhere, so I bought another. Eventually the older copy surfaced. Six months ago, while clearing out some bookshelves in the basement, I found a third copy, a yellowing paperback, printed in 1953, price 50 cents. Bob must have bought it before we were married.
A month ago, I was rearranging books, and I remember thinking "Must remember where I put the Hamilton. At least it's a logical place." Can't find it. Back to the yellowing paperback, which I was going to throw out.
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I can't find mine either. Maybe they ran off with each other!
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Babi, re # 26
With respect, only the second and third drama of Sophocles' Theban Plays take place on the same day in the same location with the same characters.
The first one, Oedipus the King, provides the essential family background : that before Oedipus' birth, his father, King Laius and wife, Quen Jocasta, were told by the Oracle that the child she was expecting would kill his father and marry his own mother. To preven any of this, King Laius ordered the baby killed. Instead, the baby was rescued and raised with loving parents, who failed to tell him that he was not their own son. Oedipus had heard rumors to that effect and, blessed by the parents, set out to discover the gtruth. Sufiffice it to say, the prophecy was ulfilled.
IMHO we cannot fully understand Antigone unless we are aware of the tragic family background andt he inevitability of the ending.
There is much information available on line on e.g. Oedipus,Creon, and especially Antigone. We have much to learn about all of them, don't we ?
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I just saw you were doing this, i'm really busy these two weeks, so may just lurk, but am anxious to read the discussion.
Jean
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Welcome, Jean, lurking or talking. You have more time than you think. The original plan was to start the discussion May 15, so as not to overlap Bleak House much. If everyone looks ready to go sooner, we might move it up.
And since we're doing three plays, you could cut in at the second one.
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Babi - You have chosen well with Kitto. He is extremely well-respected by classicists the world over. He wrote a slim volume just called "The Greeks". I have recommended this book to many people. If you get time ?? you should read it.
It would be good if from the discussions about translations etc. we reached an agreement re who is the best translator. A bit like herding cats, I know... :o
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I am forever putting things in a 'logical' place and losing them. Shucks, I can
lose something I'm using without stirring from my chair!
Thanks, TRaude. Possibly I misread a line in that foreword. Once you reminded me of the Oedipus story, I realized that of course the circumstances of his birth and his actions as
a man could not possibly have taken place on the same day!
Glad to hear that, ROSE. Apparently he also wrote a book about Greeks and tragedic
drama, as well as some others. I have no idea if any of his books are available at
my library, but I'll put him on my list.
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Hi,
I do plan to join you but probably in the middle of May since I am participating in Bleak House right now and in May I will be on vacation at Ashland Oregon for the Shakespeare Festival.
I will be lurking till then and reading your posts.
Thanks for the notice about this discussion.
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When are you going to be in Oregon, Jude? I'm going to be in Portland May 3-9.
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GREAT, jUDE!
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I love the new Illustration. Maybe it is Penelope or even Arachne?
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It's part of a picture of a group of women JoanK found. They aren't named.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
Antigone
Schedule:
May 15-21 First half (Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE.
Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains")
May 22-28 Second half
Questions for the first half:
1) Antigone and Ismene are opposites in bravery and defiance. Why? In which sister do you see yourself?
2) In its first appearance, what is the chorus describing in fanciful terms? Who or what is the "he" referred to?
3) What sort of ruler will Creon be? What clues do we have?
4) Where do we see evidence for the powerlessness and low status of women?
5) Both Creon and Antigone defend their positions in terms of high ethical values. What are these values? Which do you find most compelling? Would compromise have been possible? Why or why not?
6) Fagles points out that over the millennia over which this play has been produced, the opinion of the audience would have changed as to who was right: Antigone or Creon. Do you think that opinion would have changed over our lifetime? In different parts of the world?
7) Have you ever been in a situation where two deeply-held ethical principles were in conflict? How was it resolved?
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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JoanK,
We are (aren't we?) still in the prediscussion phase.
What would you like us to do to prepare for the reading of the play itself come May 15th ?
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Traude:Sorry for the delay in responding. the discussion doesn't start until May 15th to allow the Dickens people to finish. But there is a lot of background we can work on: conventions of the Greek theater, the background of the stories, etc. I will be postin material after May 1st, but you all feel free to post whatever you know, too.
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Pat
Just saw your question about Oregon. We will be in Oregon at the Ashland Shakespeare Festival from the 8th to the 13th.
Portland is at the other end of the state.
Actually we will be in Portland thia summer as well. August 1 to 6.
Too bad we can't meet up.
It would be lovely to do that someday.
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Too bad, Judy. Since you've already met JoanK, you would have a matched set. I get to Portland a lot to see daughters and grandchildren, but don't know if August is in the cards. Maybe someday.
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Well Pat,
If by some chance you are in Portland Aug 1-6
please let me know beforehand so we can meet up.
This is a reunion of folks we were in Israel with. There will be lots of free time to do other activities away from the group.
If not perhaps you will make a road trip from Oregon to L.A. and can stop and visit us on the way.
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Some features of the Greek theater need explanation. It's interesting to me that it developed as part of a religious ritual: the festival of Dionysis, (called the Dionesia). The first actor to present a play was Thespis, the origin of our word thespian. But by the time the plays we are reading were written, a drama competition had developed as an important part of the festival. Three playwrights were chosen to compete, and each presented three plays. Judges gave the prize to the plays they considered the best. The three playwrights that we will be reading all competed in this festival, and all won at one time or another. At first, only tragedies were presented --- later comedies as well.
(Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_theater)
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One of the features that seems odd to us today is that all the players wore masks. The source cited above gives several reasons for this. masks may have been part of the worship of Dionysis, and then were extended to plays. But they served a practical purpose as well -- being easier to see than the actors real faces and bringing the drama home with their exaggerated emotions. They could also represent changes such as blindness.
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Looking at the picture in the heading, I can well believe how useful masks would be. The people standing on the stage look like little specks. Anything that would help tell them apart would be good.
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Joan are you saying that each actor had several masks that showed a different facial expression to show various emotions?
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The masks were also used to tell different characters apart. There were at most three actors. (At first only one, then, big innovation, two, and finally three.) So each actor had to play several parts, and he would have a different mask for each character.
As in Shakespeare's time, all the actors were male. When playing women, they would wear wooden "padding" to imitate the female shape.
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These masks are from a later date--Roman mosaic--but they're kind of fun.
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/TragicComicMasksHadriansVillamosaic.jpg)
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Ok where are we with plays during this time of Greek history - I was under the impression that one to three people read or recited the play with a chorus behind that acted almost like a drone with sounds or repetition of a few lines, something like a bag pipe has a drone sound behind the melody - y'all are suggesting something different - I think you are saying there were many actors and some of the actors played several characters and the masks distinguished characters - I am still confused I thought the masks were showing various emotions - please can you clear this up for me or direct me to a good site where the history of the Greek play and use of actors and the History of masks used by the Greeks is explained.
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There could be many members of the chorus. But apparently, there were only a maximum of three actors in the play. So each actor could play several parts, as is common in repertory theater today. When an actor left the stage as one person and came back as another, he would wear a differant mask.
The masks would tell the audience whether the character was a man or woman. The examples we've seen certainly show emotion, but whether the actor would change masks to show changes in emotion, I don't know. I haven't been able to find any reference to that.
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Ok where are we with plays during this time of Greek history - I was under the impression that one to three people read or recited the play with a chorus behind that acted almost like a drone with sounds or repetition of a few lines, something like a bag pipe has a drone sound behind the melody - y'all are suggesting something different -
I think we're really saying pretty much the same thing in different words, Barb. Up to three actors, who might play several parts each, and a chorus of a dozen or so, speaking in unison, to supply background, comment on events participate in the action, etc. I couldn't figure out if actors changed masks to show changed emotions in the same person, which is why I sidestepped that question above. Here are two informative links. They overlap, but each has stuff the other doesn't.
http://www.crystalinks.com/greektheater.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/greektheater.html)
http://www3.northern.edu/wild/th100/chapt11.htm (http://www3.northern.edu/wild/th100/chapt11.htm)
The first explains the role of the chorus. The second has a floor plan for a theater.
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PAT & JOAN, I'm about to add to your workload. ;) Please tell me the difference between the
strophe/antistrophe and chorus. I know, from checking definitions, that the strophe/antistrophe
means the speaker/singers turned from side to side with each response, but they seem to be
fulfilling the same function as Chorus. Except the characters may respond to the words of
Chorus. Why would my translation identify them separately?
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Good question. Give me til tomorrow to find the answer. If anyone else knows, please come in.
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Barbara,
There is a link about the Greek c chorus and I'll try to type the URL now -- but I may not succeed >:( )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_chorus
Thank goodness, it worked.
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Thanks for the additional information on the chorus, TRAUDE. The strophe/antistrophe movements must have been part of the 'technique' chosen in this drama. I'm hoping Joan
can find out more about when/why the switch is made to 'chorus' as though it was a different
entity. And since the chorus is apparently there to provide background, why does a character
occasionally reply directly to 'chorus'?
(Aren't you'all glad I decided to join in and heckle you with endless questions. ;) )
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(Aren't you'all glad I decided to join in and heckle you with endless questions. ;) )
Yes, actually. It keeps things lively.
The chorus could also act as the populace, or even important characters. In The Eumenides (it's the third of of the Oresteia trilogy; Agamemnon, which we're going to read, is the first) the chorus is the Furies themselves, who are also major characters.
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Babi, according to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature,
The strophe (meaning turn) in Greek lyric poetry and Latin imitation is a stanza. It was said to have derived its name from the performance of choral lyric, in which a stanza or strophe was sung as the chorus proceed in its dance in one direction, followed by a second stanza, the antistrophe, sung when the chorus turned and reversed its dance in the opposite direction. "Astrophic" composition describes extended lyric passages not written in stanza form.
In a Triad in a Greek lyric poem, a group of three stanzas, of which the first two, called strophē and antistrophē are symmetrical, i.e., correspond in metre, but the third, called the epode, has a different though related metrical form. If the poem consists of more than one triad the epodes, at least in Pindar, correspond with one another, as do all the strophes and antistrophes. This form of composition... broke the monotony of a long series of similar stanzas....
It is generally believed that lyric poetry written in triadic form was sung and danced by a chorus, whereas monodic lyric was usually sung by an individual...
That was a good question! Does this help at all?
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Learning all this background is really going to add a lot to our enjoyment, add another dimension to our understanding. But if anyone finds it daunting, or more work than they want to do, cheer up. You don't have to. These plays can stand on their own in the modern world with very little background.
I saw the Oresteia acted fifty years ago, knowing almost nothing about it, and it absolutely blew my mind. I still remember it vividly. I didn't have to look for the fact that the furies were the chorus, because I can still see them. Antigone is like that too. (I'm now reading it for the first time.) So, although if you put more in you get more out, if you even just read the plays, you will have an unforgettable experience.
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Ginny and Pat: you said what I was going to say but better.
In short: "chorus" is the name for the group of actors: "strophe, antistrophe, etc." refer to the form of what they say.
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GINNY, after reading your quote, I would suppose that the third stanza, the epode,
if identified in my translation as 'Chorus'. The words spoken by Chorus do seem to
be in a different metrical form than those recited/sung by strophe and antistrophe.
Very helpful, yes. As PatH says, it adds so much to my enjoyment to learn new things.
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My last final was yesterday. I will be all set for next week.
Thanks, all, for the interesting information about the chorus and strophe/antistrophe. I know next to nothing about Greek plays and how they were put together so I will be learning lots of new stuff.
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Hooray! Finals are done! Welcome back.
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great - that is over with - tests and learning hummm what is there in common but that is another entirely different discussion isn't it...
OK just read in the preface of a David Feldshuh, from Cornell U, translation that in Antigone among the other chanted and sung moments there are 6 choruses with a specific tone and function for each.
A war story with images of violence and shouts of victory, celebration of mans ingenuity with warnings that could be betraying the gods, a dark prophesy, a sensual dreamlike net of desire, suffering that demands endurance, and finally, a passionate call to Dionysis.
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Yeah, Barb, like learning things I REALLY want to learn and at my own pace. Oh, like HERE!
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Yup!
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Lots of Antigone on YouTube
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Yes. I thought we could read it first, then see it.
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Greek tragedies had a very specific structure, which it's useful to know.
Aristotle described the three unities (time, place, and action) in his Poetics. He was writing later, but was analyzing the dramas we are reading. This link, although written from a Shakespearean point of view, is short and sweet.
Three Unities (http://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/SLT/drama/classical%20drama/unities.html)
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The plays themselves had a standard arrangement of subunits. This link shows their arrangement. (If I had found it sooner, it would have answered our questions about Strophe and Antistrophe.)
Typical Structure of a Greek Play (http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/Classes/US210/Greek-play.html)
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I have noted in the past, with great interest, that the book of Job follows the 'rules' of a Greek
drama. Though the writer based the 'book' on the oral tradition of the ancient story of Job,
the parallels to Greek tragedy are apparent. There is an introduction that gives us the background and sets the stage. The characters are limited in number, and each makes his
speeches in turn. None of the violent events take place on stage, but the audience is informed
of them by messengers.
All of this had convinced me that while the story of Job is an ancient one, the Book of Job was
probably written after the years of the captivity, and by a person who had knowledge of Greek
dramatic forms.
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Goodness, Babi! I never noticed. I'll have to reread Job.
One thing I did notice, though, is that the structure makes for good live theater--an automatically gripping setup.
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Ok, the discussion begins May 15th. Pat and I thought we would take two weeks with Antigone.(If this proves to be too slow or too fast, we can change). here is the schedule (it and the questions will be in the heading shortly):
May 15-21 Antigone, 1st half. Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE. Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains"
May 22-28. Antigone, 2nd half.
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SUMMARY OF THE BACKGROUND TO ANTIGONE:
Antigone is the third (in terms of its story) of the three "Theban Plays" of Sophocles. Since, unlike Greek audiences, we don't already know the plot, a brief summary of the earlier plays is helpful. The names in capital letters are characters in the play Antigone or are important to it..
Oedipus was born to the then king and queen of Thebes (Laius and Jocasta). Because of a prophecy that Oedipus would kill his father, the king gave Oedipus to a shepherd to be killed. The shepherd had pity on the baby and instead gave him to the king of Corinth to raise as his own. So Oedipus grew up ignorant of his birth and true parents.
As an adult, he hears a prophecy that he will kill his father and marry his mother. He flees to avoid the possibility of it coming true. On the road, he is attacked by a traveling party, and kills them, unaware that one of them is his real father. He comes to Thebes, becomes a hero there, marries the widowed queen, (his mother, Jocasta), and becomes King of Thebes. They have four children, two boys and two girls (ANTIGONE and ISMENE).
Eventually, Oedipus learns the truth, that he has inadvertently killed his father and married his mother. Horrified, he blinds himself and renounces the throne. Jocasta kills herself. Her brother, CREON, becomes temporary king and exiles Oedipus. Oedipus becomes a wandering beggar with the help of his daughters, eventually winning the pity of the furies and dying peacefully.
The younger of Oedipus's two sons (ETEOCLES)becomes part of Creon's court and presumably will become king, the older (POLYNICES), feeling he should be king, flees and raises an army at Argos to attack Thebes.
Just before our play begins the two brothers kill each other: Eteocles defending Thebes, Polynices attacking with the men from Argos. Because of their deaths, Creon will be able to claim the throne for himself. The two daughters of Oedipus, Antigone and Ismene, have returned to Creon's court: and Antigone is engaged to Creon's son, HAEMON.
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I see the online link is to the translation I have by Storr. I am wondering about the new translation by Robert Bagg and James Scully. Does anyone have that? My library just happens to have an available copy. Debating on checking it out.
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Why not? It's sometimes useful to have more than one, and the price is right. I haven't checked out that translation yet; because I cleaned my library out of Greek plays, I have several, and at the moment I'm working from Fagles and Kitto.
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Where's Roshanarose? I hope you're going to be with us, roshanarose.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
Antigone
Schedule:
May 15-21 First half (Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE.
Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains")
May 22-28 Second half
Questions for the first half:
1) Antigone and Ismene are opposites in bravery and defiance. Why? In which sister do you see yourself?
2) In its first appearance, what is the chorus describing in fanciful terms? Who or what is the "he" referred to?
3) What sort of ruler will Creon be? What clues do we have?
4) Where do we see evidence for the powerlessness and low status of women?
5) Both Creon and Antigone defend their positions in terms of high ethical values. What are these values? Which do you find most compelling? Would compromise have been possible? Why or why not?
6) Fagles points out that over the millennia over which this play has been produced, the opinion of the audience would have changed as to who was right: Antigone or Creon. Do you think that opinion would have changed over our lifetime? In different parts of the world?
7) Have you ever been in a situation where two deeply-held ethical principles were in conflict? How was it resolved?
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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This background told me more I had known before. Now, does anyone have any idea why Oedipus father, Laius, was out attacking a traveler on the road? He is a king. Was he also a
bandit?
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JoanK can correct me when she appears, as she has just read Oedipus the King, but according to Edith Hamilton, the two parties met on the road, one tried to force the other from the path, and a fight ensued. Neither knew the names of the others.
Hamilton gives a genealogy of the royal house of Thebes. If you go back a few generations you get Zeus and Poseidon.
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(sigh( To think that simple good manners could have prevented all that tragedy. :-\ ::)
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Exactly!
Well, tomorrow is the day. Is anyone having trouble telling where we stop reading? With their translation? With anything I can help with?
I'm excited!
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Yes, JoanK, I'd like your help, please.
In my translation, the text of the play takes up 58 pages. It has natural divisions into First, Second, Third Stasimons, identifying the opening Odes sung by the Chorus. I believe we are to stop at the scene that ends just before the Second Stasimon with Antigone and Ismene being show out. Is that correct ?
Thank you.
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Exactly right, Traude. We'll start talking about:
Prologue--Antigone and Ismene
Parodos--the chorus' description
Episode 1--Creon and the guard
Stasimon 1--the chorus' ode to mankind
Episode 2--Antigone, guard, Creon, Ismene, ending with the sisters being taken out
There's nothing to stop you from reading more, but as you know, it works best to discuss things one chunk at a time.
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At last it’s time. We’re seated in our stone seats, Antigone and Ismene are having their furtive conference in front of the palace, and the chorus troops in in their masks and height-enhancing boots and dances towards the altar and back again, as they fill us in on what has come before.
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Oh, dear. Stone seats? And my poor bottom has gotten so bony. I must have my
maid bring along a cushion. ;)
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I wish my bottom were bony! I carry a natural cushion with me wherever I go. :(
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I had a friend named Ismene. Her parents named her after Antigone's sister. Other than being a strange name, what do you all think of that?
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Reporting in.
I ordered the new Robert Bagg and James Scully translation from the Library on Sunday afternoon. I was able to pick it up Monday afternoon. Fast service. I am reading the General Introduction section which I am finding quite interesting. The book, The Complete Plays of Sophocles: a New Translation, also has an intro to each play. There are notes at the end of the book for each play.
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Great! Feel free to share anything from the notes that strikes your fancy. But don't be afraid to just jump into the play. if you don't understand something, we have all this womanpower to figure it out.
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I read the play first, and then tried to figure out the details. The play had tremendous impact that way--don't know if it would have more or less the other way.
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I had trouble making sense of the chorus’ first speech; it was sort of fanciful and roundabout. One of my translations has some notes that help. The Dirce, or Dirke, is the river that runs by Thebes. The attackers are from Argos, hence Argives, and have white shields. The chorus starts personifying the whole army as a single person, “he”, and also gives it the qualities of an eagle, wheeling above the city. The “dragon” or “sons of a dragon” refers to the Thebans, who were descended from the dragon’s teeth sown by Cadmus. Thebes was renowned as the city of seven gates, and the attackers had seven leaders, one for each gate.
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Careful what you wish for,JOANK. Hard seats and bony bottoms are NOT a happy combinaton.
Actually, my weight now would probably be perfect, if I had any muscle tone left for
protection. :-\
I kind of like the name Ismene. I'm assuming it's pronounced Is-mene', and not Is-meany.
I made frequent recourse to the explanatory notes as well, PAT. Is it usual for the
person writing the introduction and explanatory notes to point out where the translation
does not match the original manuscripts, or lines have been attributed to a different
person? Or the chorus? I find myself wondering how the translator felt about this.
I was pleased to find, right up front, the reason for Antigone's actions...at least,
her explanation of them. The source of Antigone’s decision? “I have to please the dead
far longer than I need to please the living; with them, I have to dwell for ever.” She
holds this to be one of the “sacred laws that Heaven holds in honor.”
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At some point, Creon accuses her of being in love with death and the dead. Do you think he's right?
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Just here as an observer. My exposure to Greek drama has been minimal and has been limited to the interpretations on the operatic stage. So, I will sit quietly in the corner and just take notes. :-X
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Welcome, Don! It's good to see you here, and since Greek drama is an operatic forerunner, you should be right at home. I hope you'll read the play. It's short, but powerful.
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Is it usual for the
person writing the introduction and explanatory notes to point out where the translation
does not match the original manuscripts, or lines have been attributed to a different
person? Or the chorus? I find myself wondering how the translator felt about this.
I don't know how the translator felt, but I'm grateful. Through the years the arguments in this play have been used as justification for all sorts of political agendas, some opposite others, so anything that makes it clearer what the play actually says is a help.
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While Aias and Philoktetes are not the plays we are studying I was struck by several paragraphs in the General Introduction of the Bagg/Scully translation dealing with the Festival of Dionysos regarding war and civic responsibility. The authors made connections about how the plays are very much contemporary as well as ancient. They mentioned as an example Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and what appears to be the ancient equivalent. During the Festival when the two plays were presented, orphans of warriors who had been killed in battle were given a place of honor. They also mentioned how Sophocles depiction in Oedipus the King of the plague (beginning about 429BCE) "dovetailed" with Thucydides account.
There is not much mention of Antigone in the General Intro. Next up is the intro to Antigone itself, then onto the play. The authors' goal, I think, is to make the characters come alive so to speak in comparison to the older more "classical" translations which these days appear rather flat. They want their readers to "feel" the emotions and "see" the action which they feel a more modern translation will do for today's readers. My guess is that they believe that someone reading the older classical translations will struggle more with the wording and miss the emotion behind it. Well, that is my take anyway.
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FRY: That's very interesting about post-traumatic stress syndrom.
"My guess is that they believe that someone reading the older classical translations will struggle more with the wording and miss the emotion behind it."
That has been my experience reading some older translations. After all, the English of a couple of centuries ago has nothing particular to do with Greek tragedy: why introduce it as a barrier.
Welcome, DON! Glad to see you. The more I think about it, the more I see the similarities between Greek drama and opera (except of course for the most important thing, the music). Any other opera lovers in the group?
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So many thoughts are coming to the fore, and I'm not sure just where to start since in this play we are actually joining in medias res, as it were. So I'll first by greet the Radioman of S&F most warmly and welcome him to our gathering.
Next I'd like to answer Babi's question about translators and their métier because translating and interpreting has been my calling and my life's work. Yes, it happens that translators compare their work with that of predecessors, not necessarily for new insights, but for new interpretations. It is an ongoing search for perfection, for le mot juste, as the French call it - simply the finest, the most appropriate term imaginable. In every new version a translator takes into account what has preceded through the ages, and justifies his difference of opinion, if he so wishes.
to be continued
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STRAUDE: great to have a translater in our midst. You can make us more aware of the problems, pitfalls, and glories for both translator and reader.
Is everyone busy reading prefaces and prologues? Do me a favor: skip them, and read the play first. The brief summary of the plot of the other two plays, posted in Post 76 is useful, but you don't even really need that. The play is fairly self-explanitory. After reading the play, if you want to read the preface, and contribute whatever you find interesting, it will mean more to us then.
One thing that Greek drama seems to have in common with opera is that it repeats a lot. So if you don't catch something the first time it goes by, if it's important to the plot, it will be mentioned again.
The only part that is hard to understand is the long poem that the chorus says near he beginning. As Pat said above, it's just a fanciful description of the war that just ended, comparing the invading army (the Argaves) to an Eagle, and the defending Thebans to a dragon. If you don't like that part, just skip it. We're reading this for our enjoyment, and should read it however is fun for us.
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What a wonderful job you've done so far, JoanK and Pat, in setting up the background and explaining events. I'm not sure my translation from an Internet book is up to the mark, but I've read till Antigone exits. It's a strange translation by Storr? Very Shakespearean.
There's no introduction or any notes. Antigone is really getting popular, it's coming out as a new movie or opera or musical, can't remember which, but it's already several operas, isn't it, by various composers?
I'm finding it very interesting. Here's Creon's Guard saying don't kill the messenger and Colin Powell saying in Newsweek that the leader MUST be told, one gets the feeling Creon is not the most sympathetic ruler ever--- is there any background on him before this?
His reasons for not abating his decision are interesting---people will think he's a girly man if he is swayed by her, And several other rationalizations. (I am on the iPad and can't consult the text at the same time). He seems to think (why?) that he is upholding the "right" since Polyneices was an adversary? Yet he's the one breaking the "code" of honorable burial. Remember Troy and Achilles dragging Hector around?
If you didn't give the body the necessary obsequies and send off, the person would not be happy in the afterworld forever. It was a serious thing.
I keep wondering why he's doing this against all odds, against his son...I mean, the threat is dead. Is he afraid and trying to hold his new power by force?
I liked this question: 6) Fagles points out that over the millennia over which this play has been produced, the opinion of the audience would have changed as to who was right: Antigone or Creon. Do you think that opinion would have changed over our lifetime? In different parts of the world?
Does he say which time period would have which opinion?
I think maybe today Creon would be thought wrong, a new dictator trying to hold on by force no matter what, and Antigone was awfully brave to try to do the right thing and see to a proper burial for her brother. After all, what made her brother thus dishonored this pariah other than Creon?
But given the ancients and their regard for proper burial of the dead I don't see them thinking Creon was right, either...When would people have seen him right and her wrong? Anybody know enough about ensuing history to say?
I'm not sure either that what is motivating Creon is all that noble, or do you see him differently? It's amazing the psychological little slips he makes.
Super interesting choice!
(Is the Chorus giving us any useful clues here?)
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If anyone doesn't care for the translation they are reading, there are many out there. My Public Library had 3 or 4 different ones. I'm working from 2--Fagles and Kitto, both extremely readable.
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Ok trying to get the picture of what this was all about - looks like there are two powerful kingdoms if you will for want of a better description - Thebes and Argos - King Oedipus of Thebes left twin sons, Eteocles and Polyneices, who agreed to reign for alternate years, but after the first year Eteocles refused to step down. Polyneices took refuge at the court of Argos, which raised an army for him.
And so, "our good Creon" must be aligned with Eteocles and Thebes. The two sisters may be seeing the burying of family from an intimate family viewpoint where as Creon is looking at alliances and who to honor and who represents the enemy that should be subject to disgrace. And so we have parallel intentions and responsibility on a collision course.
Antigone is making the case for family responsibility and honorable behavior being more valuable than city-state's interests and being subjected to a leader's will expressed in a decree written to preserve a cities growth, strength, power and unity.
Ismene doesn't seem to be standing up for either view and is taking care of her own skin. She seems to be saying it is life that is most important and to preserve your life you stay under the radar and obey a decree regardless of a greater calling from the dead.
Ok what does this underlined (by me) phrase mean -
how our father
died hated and infamous from offenses
self-detected, smiting both his eyes with
his very own hands. His wife and mother—
both words at once!—took her life with twisted noose;
then, third, our two brothers in just one day
slew each other,
Is this saying his wife was his mother? Ah found it - so he is the one who it was prophesied would kill his father. who was Laius and marry his mother.
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Antigone is really getting popular, it's coming out as a new movie or opera or musical, can't remember which, but it's already several operas, isn't it, by various composers?
I had no idea. Turns out there are a number, notably by Arthur Honegger and Carl Orff. I can just imagine Orff's take on it.
The most recent I could find has words by poet Seamus Heaney, an adaptation of West Indian poet Derek Walcott's The Burial at Thebes, directed by Walcott. I wonder what sort of fireworks you get with two Nobel prize winning poets working over a script together. The composer is Dominique le Gendre, born in Trinidad, based in London. I hadn't heard of her before.
http://www.dominiquelegendre.com/ (http://www.dominiquelegendre.com/)
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That's an excellent presentation of issues, Barb and Ginny. Now all we have to do is answer all the questions you've raised.
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JOANK, I assumed that the purpose of the introductory chorus was to give the audience
the background of the story and bring them up to the present time. Since the play takes
place entirely in the course of one day, that would be pretty important.
Ismene is, of course, the weaker character, but also possibly the sensible one. She says she will keep Antigone’s purpose secret, and advises her to do the same. Sounds reasonable to me. Antigone reveals a rather arrogant pride in her reply, imo. “Go and denounce me! I shall hate you more if you keep silent and do not proclaim it.” She appears determined not only to
bury her brother, but to defiantly sacrifice herself in doing it. This is carrying hardheaded to
fatal extremes. I am seeing a young woman with her head full of notions of glory.
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Great responses!
BARB: "how our father
died hated and infamous from offenses
self-detected, smiting both his eyes with
his very own hands. His wife and mother—
both words at once!—took her life with twisted noose;"
Clever of you to find this. The first two plaays summed up in one sentance! Yes, their father was the man who, not knowing it, married his mother, making her "his wife and mother-- both words at once." He discovered her identity himself ("offenses self-detected"). When his wife/mother found out that he was her son, she hanged herself ("took her life with twisted noose"). He blinded himself, and left.
The two girls were young at the time, left to grow up with their uncle Creon. If this was a modern play, they would be spending all their time on a psychiatrist's couch, poor things.
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OK, here we have moral and practical dilemmas laid out. Practically, do we risk our lives to right what we see as a wrong? Which of you felt more like Ismene, seeing a beloved sister risking her life and which more like Antigone?
And morally, what things are more important than our duty to obey the law? When are we justified in saying that our personal beliefs are more important than the law? Is duty to family? religious duty?
Both sides of the argument have been widely quoted. During the time after it was written, when Greece was trying to establish a strong city-state, Demosthenes quoted Creon on the duty of the citizen to the state. Victorian England had such confidence in progress that they assumed such a conflict would never arise.
Source: Fagles: The Three Theban Plays: Antigone.
Can you think of more modern situations where it would be politically relevant?
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Any of you dissatisfied by your translation, the Fagles translation is available on kindle under the title "The Three Theban Plays"
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During Sophocles' time, the problem of how to keep city-states stable must have been important, and Thebes was an important city-state. The religious duty was important too, a requirement of the gods. If the rites weren't performed for a body, the spirit wouldn't be recognized in the underworld. If you passed a body and didn't sprinkle dust on it, you risked a curse.
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I have returned from my trip to Ashland, Oregon and the Shakespeare Festival. Also visited Crater Lake , which unbeleivably had fourteen fffet of snow. The mountains and forests were covered in white for miles and miles but the road was passable. Crater Lake has the most snow of any spot in the lower 48.
I read your posts up till now, got to the library and took out the Fagles translation with a brilliant intro by Bernard Knox.
I still need to get my bearings about the play. I would like to mention some fact that Knox talks about....
"Two modern adaptions of the play, both of them alive with political urgency, are highlights in the modern theatre. In Feb. 1944, in a paris occupied by the Nazis.. jean Anouilh produced HIS Antigone . in which Antigone is unmistakrnly identified with the French Resistance movement."
"The other modern adaption , Bertold Brecht's radical revision of staged at Chur in Switzerland in 1948......Against the Hitlerian Black of Creon , Antigone is all white she is the image of what Brecht longed to see-the rising of the German people against Hitler, a resistance thar never came to birth...."
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Wow, I just downloaded iTunes so I could see some of the podcast links that are listed now and again on sites I frequent, and to check out iTunesU. I see a lot of the places I have already bookmarked in there (like the Yale lecture on Roman Architecture I am back to viewing). I did a search on Antigone. There are some interesting things to view after dinner, including a lecture called Antigone's Political Legacy. It looks like I can remove some of my bookmarks, because iTunes links to them.
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FRYBAbe: that soundss neat,
More on Anouilh's version of Antigone. Fagles says that the Nazis allowed the play to be produced in occupied France because of it's treatment of Creon. "Anouith presents him as a practical man whose assumption of power faces him with a tragic dilemma: his desire to rule firmly but fairly, to restore and maintain order in a chaotic situation is frustrated by a determined. fanatical, apparently irrational resistance." (Fagles "Antigone")
So the Germans saw the play as describing their frustrating situation as occupiers, while the French saw it as a call to resistance.
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Jude, Welcome back!
Thank you for the information regarding Bertold Brecht's adaptation of Antigone. As basis for his adaptation of Sophocles' play he used the German translation by Friedrich Hölderlin, a Romantic poet.
Brecht's second wife, Helene Weigel, played the starring role in Chur, which is in is in the German-speaking part of Switzerland. It was difficult for her, a native of Vienna, to find work in their years abroad because she did not speak foreign languages as well as her native tongue. For her Brecht wrote Mother Courage and Her Children, in which she was mute. After WW II they returned to Europe, but lived in the Soviet-occupied DDR because of Brecht's Stalinist leanings.
JoanK, It may well have escaped the German watchdogs that Jean Anouilh's play Antigone was seen also as criticism of Maréchal Philippe Pétain's Vichy Government. After marching into Paris in 1940, the Germans installed him as head of what was called L'Etat de France based in Vichy. The Marshal was an old man of 84. The Vichy government collaborated with Nazi Germany until the summer of 1944, when the German troops were withdrawn. In 1945 Pétain was put on trial for treason, found guilty and sentenced to death. The sentence was later commuted to life in prison. He died in 1951 at 95.
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Read that burying the dead was the sole duty of women. Denying Antigone this duty took away her dignity.
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Tough questions, JOANK. I think I would have felt an obligation to bury my brother, but I would not insist on flaunting it in Creon's face.
Historically, people have always felt they had a right to defy the law if they felt
oppressed by it. What was the American revolution all about, if not that. And we all
probably have personal and/or religious ethics that we could not betray.
“There is no art that teaches us to know the temper, mind or spirit of any man until he has been proved by government and lawgiving.” Can’t quarrel with that. How many seemingly strong, good men have been seduced by power or found themselves unable to combine ethics and political ‘necessity’?
The Greek love of their city-states is apparent here. They refer to the city as ‘she’, just as a ship is always ‘she’. Why is that, I wonder, for cities or ships? They, (or Sophocles) also attribute an awareness to the city. “For be sure of this: it is the city that protects us all; she bears us through the storm....”
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
Antigone
Schedule:
May 15-21 First half (Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE.
Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains")
May 22-28 Second half
Questions for the first half:
1) Antigone and Ismene are opposites in bravery and defiance. Why? In which sister do you see yourself?
2) In its first appearance, what is the chorus describing in fanciful terms? Who or what is the "he" referred to?
3) What sort of ruler will Creon be? What clues do we have?
4) Where do we see evidence for the powerlessness and low status of women?
5) Both Creon and Antigone defend their positions in terms of high ethical values. What are these values? Which do you find most compelling? Would compromise have been possible? Why or why not?
6) Fagles points out that over the millennia over which this play has been produced, the opinion of the audience would have changed as to who was right: Antigone or Creon. Do you think that opinion would have changed over our lifetime? In different parts of the world?
7) Have you ever been in a situation where two deeply-held ethical principles were in conflict? How was it resolved?
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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Lets look at the arguments of the play, in Fagles translation (which I find very beautiful.
Here is Creon: "whoever places a friend above the good of his own country, he is nothing:....
our country is our safety. Only when she voyages true on course
can we establish friendships truer than blood itself.
Such are my standards. They make our city great.
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And here is Antigone:
Creon: ... you had the gall to break this law?
Antigone: Of course I did. It wasn't Zeus, ...
who made this proclamation-- not to me.
Nor did that Justice, dwelling with the Gods
beneath the earth, ordain such laws for men.
Nor did I think your edict had such force
That you, a mere mortal, could override the gods,
The great unwritten, unshakable traditions.
They are alive, not just today or yesterday
they live forever, from the first of time,
And no one knows when they first saw the light.
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OK - ha I seem to start with an OK whenever I gave something some thought and I offer the outcome, which to me is simply organizing where I am at. And so, OK - here is what I think - there are no bad-guys in this scenario.
Creon is leader and protector of Thebes - I think like many leaders - we need them - they are in the position by birth or strength shown during a trial like a battle or appointed or they are elected - we are really judging them by how they lead not that they have the power to lead. Like all men some act in ways that uplift us and other act to uplift themselves to the disadvantage of those they hold in their power.
Some quotes that add up to me that Creon is a leader with the welfare of the community first.
the gods have set right again
our city's affairs, after shaking them
in a storm,
he continues to heap praise on the men assembled to hear him acknowledging their devotion to
you always revered the power of
Laius' throne; then, both when Oedipus saved
the city and when he fell, you stood in
consistent support of their children.
he states his case why he is the chosen leader and the biggie, how is a man measured in a position of leadership.
Now I hold
sole power and the throne, because I am
the closest relative of the fallen.
It is impossible to know the soul,
the mind, and character of any man,
until he has proven himself in the law.
For if someone rules an entire city
and does not take hold of the best counsels,
but holds his tongue out of fear, I think him
to be the worst of men, now and always;
and the man who considers more important
than his fatherland his friend, I think him
worthless.
So leadership of a city means taking best counsel - not saying what is needed out of fear - putting a love of the city above individual friendship.
here he says it...
I would never be silent
if I saw madness creeping among
the citizens in place of salvation,
nor would I consider an enemy
of my country a friend to myself,
recognizing this: that my country is
safety itself, and only when she is upright
can our sailing find friends. With laws like these
I will make our city grow.
Today, we do not want to see and we feel betrayed when leadership allows, for instance, the madness on Wall Street to continue - For us we have leadership spread among more than one which means, one leader cannot attend to madness as Creon could in history - We would not want to see our national leadership making friends with our enemy - The Taliban is not an easy black and white enemy as in our recent past we had the Soviet Russia as an enemy. Nations consolidated their borders, their power, and safety for their citizens because of an enemy. Leaders are urged to provide an upright, safe place with laws that allowed growth.
Our nation was built on individual rights being more important that community rights. The cases that hit the Supreme Court are most often about the individual versus a community which is why so many are outraged that a corporation is now declared an individual. And so, the case of Antigone versus Creon would be brought to court based on the needs and rights of the Individual versus the Community, with Creon the leader of that community.
Ok more to say but another post is probably best...
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Looking at the four siblings and the dynamics that pits Antigone against the leader of her community, I thought that the rational in the play, regardless it was the dead souls expectations or, religious practices or willful braggadocio or, a timid response was all beside the point. These issues and practices were simply part of the story to make an impact on the audience given what values were elevated in importance and shared by most folks at the time.
I am going back a bit from Nazi control to something a bit closer to home - A father has a successful plantation say in Virginia - he sends his twin sons to West Point and upon completion of their education, they come home. When he dies, he wills that the two sons are to inherit and take turns managing the plantation controlling the profits only from the year they managed the plantation.
The first year - let's even give him and excuse - it rained all summer and the cotton could not be picked and they had no other cash crop - so he wants to stay and the brother gets angry. Rather than taking it out on his brother he angrily leaves to set up a trading business in the north - say NYC - He is welcomed and meets all sorts of powerful men - they ply him with drinks because he is going to make them all rich. He feels welcomed and supported.
The Civil War starts - the brothers are both made Generals with their West Point background - the face each other in battle somewhere in say the border of western Virginia or maybe Tennessee - where ever it really does not matter but somewhere very close to southern territory that is lost to the north when the brothers clash and both end up killed. General Lee buries the brother from the south with all the pomp that can be imagined that was still available during the early days of the war - and he leaves the union soldiers killed, including the general on the field of battle that is now in the hands of the enemy, the north. Similar to the battle of the Seven Gates to the Thebes took place outside the city.
Of course, a loving sister is going to risk life and limb to sneak into enemy territory, find her brother's body and bury it - the other sister is saying no, we must live for the future - let's give her a purpose and say the plantation house is now a hospital and they must take care of the living.
Of course, the sister who cannot sleep knowing her brother is lying somewhere in a field of mud and insects must be strong and sound like a Joan of Arc to her spirit to risk such a scary exploit. She is going into enemy territory to risk being captured and dragged into some prison or killed by a quick-fingered Yank.
Of course, the other sister is scared for her however, she believes in the authority of leadership and Robert E. Lee is the leader who was coalescing his power in order to strengthen his army by reducing the enemy with the disrespect worthy of villains. She also knows that her safety as a woman during war means she must cling to her community and the laws of her community for protection.
As Ismene explains...
And now the two of us, left all alone—
think how very horribly we will die
if we go against the king's decree and strength
outside the law. Rather, consider that we
were born women, proving we should not fight with men,
and that we are ruled by more powerful people
and must obey them, even in more painful things.
Therefore I ask forgiveness from those below,
as I am forced to in these matters, and yield
to those who walk with authority.
For to do excessive things is nonsense.
There is value in each of their purposes - Many authors remind us of the ambiguities in life and this to me is an early example of just that. There does not seem to me to be a villain - they each have a just rational for their behavior that makes us all question "do no harm" - sometimes the choices are either not seen because of your own just purpose in life or sometimes there is no win-win without a great deal of compassion for each other.
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These guards here have been bribed—I can see that
clearly—by such men to do this, for no
institution has so harmed humanity
as the creation of money. It's destroyed
even cities, it has expelled men from
their homes; it teaches the minds of honest
men to deviate and take up foul things.
It has shown men how to be villainous
and to know every sort of godlessness.
Reminds me of lobbyists sprinkling freely money and gifts to Congress as so called re-election funds in order to bribe their allegiance and vote to their way of thinking regardless the good of the city and its people.
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Of course he has to bluster - what else can he do and still show leadership with the way power is so one sided - these are the folks who are supposed to keep folks in-line and see to anyone not obeying the law - reminds us of other leaders caught in trying to consolidate power much like the leaders of a modern army would shoot deserters to keep everyone in-line.
unless you find the culprit of this tomb
and bring him before these eyes of mine,
Death alone will not protect you:
you'll all be hanged alive to demonstrate
your insolent crime, so the rest of your lives
you may steal, knowing once and for all
what sort of reward it brings, and learn that
we must not love all profit equally.
For you should know that more men suffer
from shameful gains than are saved by them.
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Wow they are like two ships ramming into each other - they each speak from the power of their conviction - his leadership is on the line along with his reputation and her life is on the line. She taunts him and he threatens her flexing his power by enlarging her circle of disobedience by bringing her sister into the act.
Antigone ridicules him with...
to have acted foolishly, then perhaps
I owe my foolishness to a fool.
He flexes his power and justifies his come-back at her.
no one is allowed to think big thoughts,
if he is another man's slave.
She showed
herself capable of insolence then,
to exult in her deed and
laugh that she had done it.
going beyond the laws put before her.
And the clash in his heart and mind of identity as a leader - He must act against his niece in order to maintain leadership that is his responsibility in order to bring safety and growth to the city.
Now I am no man,
but she is a man, if power lies with her
with impunity.
She left him no loophole - she was not even chaste in her acknowledging her act of defiance. And now, in keeping with his bluster, that we saw earlier and now we see is part of his personality or at least way of leading, he enlarges the deed unnecessarily by bring the sister as equal in plotting this burial.
And then, like a wound-up dervish she keeps up her attack since all she has left is her rage and her honor to her brother.
Do you want something more than killing me?
And she's got him and he knows it... her tyranny will be the talk of the city. Wow this is gut wrenchingly better than Thoreau's Civil Disobedience, Lech Wałęsa, Rosa Parker, Saint-Just and Marie Jean Hérault de Séchelles authors of Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen of 1793
And yet, could my fame be more gloriously
established than by placing my brother
in a tomb? I think all these people would
agree, if fear did not hold their tongues.
Tyranny is lucky in many ways,
above all in doing and saying what it will.
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Ok I will shut up - this is some story - it has me by the tail - obviously... wish there were others around with their comments and thoughts - I will check in tomorrow.
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I'm not ignoring you, Barb, I'm chewing it over. I'll be in tomorrow.
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I remember seeing a production of Jean Anouilh’s version of Antigone in Austin, Texas sometime about November 1948. It was a project staged by the University of Texas Drama department. This version of the ancient Greek drama had been written by Jean Anouilh and actually staged in Nazi occupied Paris in 1944. Perhaps the allowing of this staging was an early manifestation of the German Commander in Paris’ anti-Nazi feelings. Remember he later ignored Hitler’s direct order to destroy Paris. When the UT Drama Department produced this play on the Austin campus, I don’t believe it had yet been done in either New York or London.
This was my introduction to Greek drama and I was certainly impressed. Particularly I found it easy to understand with its modern 20th century settings with Creon more a modern dictator than ancient Greek king. All the characters wore familiar 20th century business dress. I was certainly impressed by the drama of the staged conflict between the unyielding positions of King Creon in contrast with Antigone and the “I don’t care” position of her sister and other characters, particularly the policemen.
Though this play would be far too ambitious as a project of our Chandler House Players, Reader’s Theater group, perhaps we might arrange a reading of the last act dialog between Antigone and Creon. I would love the Creon part and we have at least 2 candidates flor Antigone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Anouilh
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Babi and Barbara,
Excellent points, well reasoned, and a plausible analogy. At this crucial point in the story it might be useful to consult Edith Hamilton to find out more about Creon, a stern, obviously feared leader.
Creon's Greek name is Kreon and means 'ruler'. He was the brother of Queen Jocasta and the brother-in-law of King Laius of Thebes. Laius had been warned by the Oracle at Apollo's Temple at Delphi not to have a child with Jocasta because he would die by that child's hand. But Jocasta did have a son. To evade the prophecy Laius asked a servant to bind the infant's feet and ankles and leave it to die on the mountain side. Thanks to the compassion of strangers the child, named Oedpus, lived; the prophecy was fulfilled years later even though neither man knew who the strangers were.
In Laius' absence, Creon became regent in Thebes. Then word came of his and his companions' death at the hanadd of robbers. . Thebes was in sore straits, it had been invaded by the Sphyinx, a monster shaped like a winged lion but with the breast and face of a woman, lying in wait for the wayfarers on the roads near the city.
Oedipus was raised by the King and Queen of Corinth as their son. When he grew older he heard a rumor that he was adopted, and when old enough,decided to ask the Oracle at Delphi about his parents. He was told that he was destined to murder his father and marry his mother. Like Laius had, Oedipus thought it possible to obviate this by never going back to Corinth. His wanderings brought him to Thebes. The Sphinx waylaid him and asked him the riddle which no one had been able to answer :"What has four feet in the morning, two at noon, and three in the evening ?" and Oedipus said "Man", whereupon the Sphinx, inexplicably and most fortunately, killed herself. The citizens were grateful and made him their king, and he married the dead king's widow, Jocasta. They lived happily and had four children, two daughterrs and two sons.
Then a terrible plague came on to the country; men died, flocks and herds were decimated, no crops were growing; famine seemed unavoidable. Nobody suffered more than Oedipus. He sent Creon to Delphi to implore the god's help. Creon came back with good news. Apollo had told him the plague would be stayed on one condition : Whoever had killed Laius must be punished. Oedipus was enormously relieved and set out to find the murderer. He sent for the seer Teresias who at first refused to answer. When Oedipus pressed him at length, the prophet told him he himself was the murderer he was seeking. Oedipus was indignant and banished the prophet from his sight forever.
It is a long story and we know how it ended. Word came of the death of the King of Corinth, who had not been Oedipu real father. And the man was found who had taken the infant from the shepherd and given him to the King and Queen of Corinth. In the face of this overwhelming tragedy Jocasta killed herself, Oedipus blinded himself. He resigned the throne, the elder son, Polyneices, did not want it. Creon became the regent.
Oedipus continued to live in Thebes; his sons were well liked by the citizens, and both daughters were all a father could desire. Eventually, however, Oedipus was driven out of the city. Antigone accompanied her father to guide him; Ismene stayed behind.
When Oedipus was gone, the sons asserted their rights to the throne, both trying to be made king. Eteocles succeeded even though he was the younger. He then expelled his brother from Thebes. Polyneices sought refuge in Argos. It was his intention to assemble an army and march against Thebes.
As Antigone opens, we hear about the battle that raged for a long time without a decisive outcome -- until at last the brothers fell upon each other, each killing the other. The field was littered with casualties, but Eteiocles was hailed by Creon as hero and defender of the city, and Thebes declared the winner. Creon, , in control, proclaimed that none of the dead who had fought against Thebes must be give a burial, inasmuch as they were traitors.
This account is excerpted from Edith Hamilton's Mythology, pp. 375-387. I have left out the rest of Oedipus' life in Colonus and his peaceful death, after which Antigone returned to Thebes.
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Great Idea Harold - having a reading - and wow to have seen the Anouilh version at UT - thanks for the link telling us more about Anouilh - what wonders we have in our memories - I am thinking that his version transfered to Nazi control also shows Creon as a tyrant to a less powerful Antigone -
I have not read the entire play so there is still room to change my opinion however, for now I still see them both tyrants using all their power, both being unreasonable, she being as cruel to him giving him no way to go easy on her, each trying to force what they each value as their life's work. Antigone, to honor her beloved brother regardless, his adult behavior - blood is thicker - and Creon, to bring about, even if it means forcing the citizenry into, a safe, protected, lawful city that is capable of growth.
Thanks for the history straudetwo - bottom line, Thebes is not a democratic city and so a leader's view for a city is what leadership is all about. Creon may have been sterner however, he had to develop loyalty after a much loved Oedipus and he had to do it quickly since he had no idea if the folks from Argos would be back to storm the gates. I think like a general in the field he had to demand - it is never a popular way of leading but then if you look at Antigone - if it helps forget she is a woman - she is going toe to toe with him - she does not have his power, no one has his power - but we are seeing both use the power they have to try and force the other into what they each think is appropriate behavior and understanding.
I think we in the USA like France was and is a democracy where folks are used to having their viewpoint heard and worked into the community laws and direction for growth. I can see how the play could fit many scenarios however, When France had to deal with the Nazis - the Nazis were not trying to control for the growth and safety of the French, they wanted France as a controlled buffer and extension of Germany. Creon does not sound like he wants to control Argos and make it an extension of Thebes.
Oh dear - all I can do is say reading the play this is my viewpoint - do we have to agree - can I see them both as tyrants and speak from that view - if you see something else in the play that is fine - I see this man having to make himself quickly a strong leader with no one crowing him with glory - the past kings were beloved but were about their own life dramas and not saying to the people - behold my much loved cousin or uncle, Creon - love and honor him as you have honored me and my boys.
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Creon's 'argument' for 'the good of his country' sounds great. I'm just not sure how
refusing to bury a dead enemy contributes to that good. I thought Antigone made the
stronger point that a 'mere mortal' could not "override the gods, The great unwritten,
unshakable traditions. They are alive, not just today or yesterday
they live forever,...."
BARB, you make an excellent argument for Creon. In principle, I agree with what he
said. It's simply that using that as an argument for not burying his nephew does not
seem valid. How does that constitute "madness" creeping among the people?
I like your quote from Ismene. "Therefore I ask forgiveness from those below,
as I am forced to in these matters, and yield to those who walk with authority."She makes a valid point as to the subordinate position of women, and that one could
ask forgiveness from 'those below'. Antigone, however, as I said before, has visions
of a glorious defiance.
Creon, in control, proclaimed that none of the dead who had fought against Thebes must
be give a burial, inasmuch as they were traitors.
TRAUDE, it occurs to me that one can
only be a 'traitor' to one's own county..or city, in this case. Therefore, most of the
dead would have been Argives and the term would not apply to them. I don't recall seeing
a reference to Thebans other than Polyneices taking part in the battle, though it's
reasonable to infer there would be.
My edition’s explanatory notes made an interesting observation on Polyneices name. Polyneices is a play on the Greek word for quarreling, with the name translating to 'much quarreling’. Apparently, a highly appropriate name.
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I now have an in print book with notes and annotated, and it's by Richard Earl Braun and the most stunning thing I learned was that Creon is a mythological legend, not real, and this story or iteration of his life, the Antigone part, is a figment of Sopholcles imagination. Euripides wrote another version of Antigone's end, but the play is now lost.
I went to look up the "real" Creon in history and found there were two Kreons, both in mythology, one the King of Corinth of the old Jason and the Argonauts fame, and one the King of Thebes, brother of Jocasta, wife of Oedipus Rex.
Braun makes the point very clearly that Kreon's behavior is not noble and is not to be considered the norm for rulers.
He goes into great political detail on this one. So he confirms the Sully translation that Kreon is acting not of expected principles but of his own benefit.
He states also in a series of bits on the structure of the play that "it appears Sophocles took the meaning [of the words Antigone and Haimon] seriously, for he created an Antigone who, "born to oppose," relies on innate courage in facing tyranny, and he devised the manner of Haimon's death, where "blood" is poured wastefully forth."
(Here's another name analysis to go along with that of Polyneices. :))
I thought this was very interesting:
"Kreon expounds a tyrannical and oligarchic [conflict], Haimon, a democratic view of law and leadership. The combining of tyrannical and oligarchic in Kreon is a peculiar paring of different though logically compatible, concepts of government: though few oligarchs would have admitted the compatibility, many democrats might insist upon it.
Kreon's laws are his own; the principle behind them is obedience to power, their alleged purpose is stability, their apparent motive power-hunger. Haimon's principle is reason, his motive love for Antigone. Haimon, democracy, Eros; Kreon autocracy, Ares: the diagram has appeal.
Kreon is a military leader who is not governed by civil norms. An Athenian general, however, had to render an account of his acts to the people. Athenians associated law with freedom from autocratic rule; laws, to Pericles, were the enactments of the majority of citizens duly assembled."
That's important, and it's what's wrong with Kreon and the entire thing, seen against the backdrop of the "Athenian city-state" of the time.
In other words, his words give him away as what he is, and it's not the norm.
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Given how many centuries people have been arguing over this play, I didn't expect us to reach a consensus, and we're certainly all over the map. I'm working on my interpretation of Creon now, will post it when I can get it to make sense.
It doesn't matter to me that these weren't historical characters. Sophocles is using them to express his ideas, and probably thought they were real.
Anyway, Aristotle says that myth is the best subject for drama, since it doesn't matter how improbable the stories are, we know they are true. ;D
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What great posts! I had hoped we would be all over the map: if it were a trivial question, it wouldn't have resonated for so many years.
I hope I am hearing that some of you liked this play as much as I do. I saw some of the scenes acted out, and it blew me away.
Ginny: I like your notes. We'll get to Haimon next week in the second part of the play. I'd like to revisit your notes on him then.
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That's a good point. Maybe that is why Fagles says people over the last 2500 years could argue one side or the other at different times: in our time they might see Kreon as, for instance, the Leader of the Free World in 2013. How would he fit in that scenario? Would there even BE an issue? You'd have to distort or maybe extrapolate is a better word, the main issue, the importance of a proper burial, so that would mean it would extend to other ethics issues and THERE you could have a field day. In that scenario (2013) killing her would not be an option unless he were a Gadaffhi type modern dictator.
Or you could compare him to other despots or leaders in history. I can see how you could do that.
As it IS, I think it's striking in its historical context, but again, Sophocles could not have written it as seen from a WWI perspective, so it may need for the sake of discussion to reduce to the issue or theme of power and helplessness, there seem to be a million themes and comparisons in it.
To me, the fact that Sophocles chose to present it as he did has meaning, but again, I'm just puffing away in the wind, that's how it seems to me.
Harold, I immediately thought of your Readers Theater with this one. :)
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Of course the other time this play was popular was in the 1960s. As an old Civil Rights activist, that's how I reacted to it.
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In the intro to the play by Bernard Knox he says that "The Chorus is meant to be the voice of the audience in its need to respond to what they see and hear on stage."
In the chorus's speech (lines 655-677) I hear a most modern and almost Existential attiude to life.
"Blest, they are the truly blest, who all their lives
have never tasted devasttion. For others, once
the Gods have rocked a house to its foundations
the ruin will never cease, cresting on and on
from one generation on throughout the race-
like a great mounting tide
...................................................(I skip anumber of lines)
and one generation cannot free the next-
some god will bring them crashing down,
the race finds no release.
And noe the light , the hope
springing up from the late last root
in the house of Oedipus, that hopes cut down in turn
by the long, bloody knife swung by the gods of death
by asenseless word
by fury at the heart.
As I wrote these words in the form the book gives me I am, for some reason, reminded of T.S. Eliots poetry, use of language and even form. Hmmm, could that be so?
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I hear you and yet - yes that word yet - I think when we judge other behavior we use not only our point of view but also the mores of the day - in history there is much behavior that was imagined by victims that they assumed - I guess I have seen too many characters in history that had vanquished with disrespect their enemy, mostly Generals in war, in order to create loyalty and bind closer the troops - Back to the Civil War, how do we explain Sherman's march to the sea - and yet, for some Sherman is a hero -
I know we agree that reading a story we share our reaction based in our views of human behavior rather than to use the opinions of others to form our life experiences - do we really know what Sophocles meant other than what is said in the play - did he write notes explaining what he meant to say in his play - I can't help but think if we are going to take the interpretation offered by published educated readers without our individual reflection than why read a work - by taking the viewpoint of others as basic feels as if we are simply giving more kudos to past interpreters...now, I can see a translation giving a slant not conveying the accurate description - but as you are all saying this work is a metaphor to many historical events.
I do appreciate today many prefer a good guy/bad guy scenario - also we give heed to the many quotes about only having the capacity to see in another that which we know from within ourselves - I do not think folks act irrationally - we may not understand their behavior because we never had a similar experience and our bag of tools would have us handle it differently - but then is that saying if someone handles things differently that makes them the bad guy without even examining their how, why and wherefore.
Finally, I broke down and read excerpts of the modern play by Jean Anouilh - he has Antigone as a difficult girl, terrorizing, always insisting on the gratification of her desires, refusing to "understand" the limits placed on her and representing the French Resistance -
Notes on his work suggest Anouilh sees Antigone as a tragic hero Like Oedipus - and he sees Creon as trying to achieve social order with no desire to sentence Antigone to death if she would only bow to state power. He sees Creon alone in the palace with no family by his side so that he cannot even mourn the loss of his family because of the demands of leadership.
In Anouilh's play Ismene is the object of all men's desires that Antigone feels jealous and she tries to woo Ismene's fiancé. Failing she sees, these human pleasures are not meant for her.
So far, I had not picked up any jealousy by Antigone for Ismene in the Sophocles play but again, we have folks who see different values in these characters.
The French Resistance was a force counted on for support by Eisenhower. The French Resistance, like Antigone, their strength was unreasonable behavior, risking life for a moral value. It is widely accepted that Hitler would not have come to power if the allies had not vanquished Germany after WWI - as I say I see Generals in history acting toward their enemy as Creon. I do not see Creon similar to our understanding of Hitler or Stalin who brutalized and disposed of great swaths of citizens. However, even those atrocities when you pull it apart you can learn how they thought their action was justified in order to secure the nation. Hitler carried out a plan long held and written about during Bismarck's Germany.
Had these two different expressions of leadership, Hitler and the Resistance not emerged we would never have the clash called WWII. I see in Sophocles play the build up to a clash and how each was caught in their own view of themselves, their reason to live, and their place in the world around them.
Again, I am not asking anyone to share my point of view - In these posts I want to explain how I arrive at my take on what I read - as Pat, JoanK, Ginny and others have pointed out this is a story chewed over for thousands of years and I just do not want to believe my viewpoint is incorrect because it does not agree with some published educated authors therefore, my thoughts and life experiences are wrong. I do think we have in the past and we can continue to read questioning past presumptions.
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I agree. There is no "wrong" way to see this play -- we all see it with our own eyes, and take different things from it.
Since our theme is women in Grrek drama, I'm now looking at the gender roles in the play. They're definitely there.
Here is ISMENE" Remember we are women,we're not born to contend with men."
Well Antigone is having none of THAT. She contends away. But about being able to fuldill her traditional role, of burying her brother.
And listen to the assumptions of gender roles by both Creon and Antigone in this conversation:
CREON: Once an enemy never a friend,
not even after death.
ANTIGONE: I was born to join in love, not hate--
That is my nature.
CREON: Go down below and love
if love you must-- love the dead!
While I'm alive
no woman is going to lord it over me.
So, Antigone rebels, but rebels to "join in love". To Creon, it's about enmity and power.
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Can any of you answer Virginia Woolfs Question in "A Room of her Own"? She tries to understand how a culture like ancient greece, with such strict gender role, produced a literature with so many strong women.
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I think what is facinating is that I have to say my daughter and I both fall in line with the Antigone approach - even my daughter-in-law however, she is able to use an Ismene approach so that few realize what hit them till so far after the fact it no longer matters and yet, being forceful still does not protect you from adversity initiated by others - this play is perfect to see how clashes occur - rather than be concerned with who is right or wrong just coming from a different perspective that you believe in is a front row ticket to a crash.
I can see the fear that is part of these characters push to gain control - is that it - we are all here to fulfill our prophecy which requires much and we fortify ourselves to meet the task with all sorts of characteristics.
I must say when the guard came to tell Creon that the body had the ritual dust thrown on it the response reminded me of what many a whistle blower still experiences.
The chorus says...
She's clearly the fierce
daughter of a fierce father; she doesn't know to bend with the wind
Isn't her father Oedipus - evidently he was considered a fierce father - isn't he the one who blinds himself after he learns he killed his father and married his mother.
Creon says...
You alone of all Cadmus' race think this.
Looks like instructed by the oracle he finds and follows a cow till it sank in the mud so Cadmus is credited with building Thebes.
I love that quote JoanK - I like it where it started just a bit back further - I am going to repeat I just think it is so powerful.
CREON:
The good don't want to share honors with the bad.
ANTIGONE:
Who knows what is considered righteous below?
CREON:
An enemy is not a friend, even when dead.
ANTIGONE:
I cannot share their hate, only their love.
Only after he cannot match her logic for love does he come in with his thunder - essentially he says as we say today Go to hell - as well as saying, women are not worthy of ruling at least while this man is king of the hill.
CREON:
Then go below, and if you must be loved,
love them! No woman will rule while I live.
This is a monarchy so Antigone would have to shove him off his pedestal in order to rule - as much as Greece is credited with the first Democracy it does not appear to include equality to women nor does it value individual thought or behavior -
Another power move, this time to protect her sister...
ISMENE:
I did the deed, if she consents,
and I will take and bear the charge.
ANTIGONE:
But Justice will not allow this to you,
since neither did you want nor did I share it.
ISMENE:
But, in your time of trouble, I am not
ashamed to sail those stormy seas beside you
I wonder JoanK if the old adage reads true here - the Wolff's law something about the strongest link is where a broken bone healed - I'm thinking that woman show their strength in many ways - some more forcefully and some more public but one way or the other we have developed a strength that is often the subject of debate. Hehehe just thought I wonder with this current war on women coming out of Washington if there are more Creons in Congress - bottom-line, are they running scared hmmm. Fun...
OH my the plot thickens - Antigone is married to the son of Creon - Holy Hannah this is quite the clash of wills - there is thick family ties to both adversaries. sheesh.
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Interesting to hear that 'Antigone' is also a relevant name, GINNY. That, Haemon and
'Polyneices' make three. I'm wondering if any of the other names are significant.
I think as we get further into the play, Creon's motives will become clearer.
Haemon is engaged to Antigone, BARB, but not married if I am reading my translation
correctly. But the 'ties' are definitely adding to the tension. I appreciated your observation
about Ismene showing her own strength, a feminine strength, in siding with her sister in her
"time of trouble". On the other side, when Ismene and Antigone are brought before Creon, I felt Antigone was most unfair to Ismene.
“If he [Man] observe Law, and tread the righteous path God ordained, honoured is he;...”The explanatory notes tell me that in the Greek actually says “the laws of the land”, which makes a slightly different statement. By specifying laws of the land and the 'righteous path that God ordained’ the need to observe both is indicated.
Antigone obviously feels she cannot do both. I can understand and respect that. What truly annoys me is what, in our modern times, we might term the 'drama queen' behavior.
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Antigone was always the more forceful of the sisters. Traude points out that she was the one who accompanied Oedipus when he left Thebes, while Ismene stayed behind to relay news. When the two sisters are arguing, Creon says:
"They're both mad, I tell you, the two of them.
One's just shown it, the other's been that way
since she was born."
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". Traude points out that she [Antigone]was the one who accompanied Oedipus when he left Thebes, while Ismene stayed behind to relay news."
That's right -- I didn't pick up on that. So their characters are consistant.
Sisters tend to specialize: I'll bet the more forceful Antigone becomes, the more retiring Ismene is. But Ismene has the courage to ask to be punished with Antigone. Do you agree with my friend's mother who named her daughter after Ismene?
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We start discussing the second half of the play Tuesday. Still plenty to discuss. What about Creon's claim that Antigone is in love with death?
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And some background for Tuesday. It starts with a hymn to Dionysus. It helps to know who he was.
Dionysus
"He was the god of fertility and wine, later considered a patron of the arts. He invented wine and spread the art of tending grapes. He has a dual nature. On the one hand bringing joy and devine ecstasy. On the other brutal, unthinking, rage. Thus, reflecting both sides of wines nature. If he choses Dionysus can drive a man mad. No normal fetters can hold him or his followers".
http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Dionysus/dionysus.html
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JoanK I cannot figure out where we are supposed to stop - is the The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. before Heamon converses with his father? I do not see anyplace where Dionysus speaks - is there a chorus number like Chorus 20 - please copy a few lines of where we end or where we begin on Tuesday.
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Oops. JoanK made a mistake. The bit about Dionysus comes later in the next section.
You're right about where we are. At the moment we are discussing through
CREON, to the guards:
Stop wasting time. Take them in.
From now on they'll act like women.
Tie them up, no more running loose;
even the bravest will cut and run,
once they see Death coming for their lives. The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace.
Starting Tuesday, we will discuss the rest of the play, beginning with a long chorus and the entrance of Haemon.
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OK got it - thanks :-*
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Thanks, Pat. I got confused. The appeal to Dionysus appears later. The beginning of the second half of the play which we start to discus Tuesday is the chorus lamenting the sorrows that have been given by the gods to the house of Oedipus.
The second half of the play is full of references to other stories that were in the Greek culture of the time. the audience would have known these stories and expected to see such references. but for us, they can be barriers to our understanding and enjoyment.
I will post links to some of these stories. But it's up to you how you read this play. Anything from following up every reference to ignoring them all is ok. We aren't in High School any more, and no one but you will care whether you know who Niobe was, or where all the place names referenced are. Don't let yourself get so bogged down in details you fail to appreciate the story, which is basically very simple.
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Having said that, here are some links to people who are referanced: Most are references to other peope who were punished by the gods or man. Antigone feels that since the gods didn't rescue her or send a sign, they are punishing her.
NIOBE: her children killed and she turned to stone after she bragged about them http://www.pantheon.org/articles/n/niobe.html
PERSEPHONE: Greek queen of the underworld http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Persephone.html
DANAE: was locked in a bronze chamber by her father, but got out. Mother of Perseus http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Danae.html
LYCURGUS, KING OF EDONIA: banned the worship of Dionysus, who had him punished. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_of_Thrace
DIONYSUS: Greek god of wine (and orgies) http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Dionysus/dionysus.html
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The link above tells a funny story about Lycurgis: one version says that he banned the god of wine because he liked beer!
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There is an observation from the chorus, (the strophe, rather) that “Once a house is shaken of Heaven, disaster never leaves it, from generation to generation.” Their gods are a vengeful lot. It’s not a notion restricted to the Greeks, of course. The Hebrew scriptures stated that “the sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the sons unto the third and fourth generations.”Happily, a later prophet overturned that with a more enlightened view. Everyone answers for their own sins and offenses.
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Joan K
Is Antigone in love with death?
No. But she may very well have a martyr complex.
She believes so strongly that she is right that she is willing to give up her life for her beliefs.
Like so many martys that came after her, she sees her death for her beliefs as more worthwhile than her life could be fighting for the rights she believes in.
Is she a heroine or a fool?
Depends on your point of view.
In Knox's preface he mentions that the other two plays in this trilogy were written long after this one and in the meanwhile many of Sophocles views changed.
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Don't you think Jude that is the attitude of many soldiers during war - they willingly risk and sacrifice their life for Country - not sure if that is the basis for a career soldier but it seems to be the basis for those who volunteer during war.
I guess I am having trouble with the word complex since it indicates "seeking behavior" and I do not get that Antigone was seeking punishment until the decree prevented her from a value basic to her and her religion. I think most of us would have a difficult time if we were prevented from burying a family member who lay in the fields at the edge of town and then to live with an Uncle who forbade through this decree seems like that would be hell on earth.
She does not even judge harshly her sister who can live knowing their brother is not buried - she even knows how much the sister values her life and when the sister through love and loyalty offers to take the same punishment she argues for her life. This to me is a lady who is willing to take the consequences she knew she was risking in order to live with herself.
Heck most of us have had children and that is not risk free - we are down to 13% of pregnancies and births ending up in the death of the Mother here in the USA - I do not think we have a martyr complex when we behave in a way to risk pregnancy - we may not be as conscious any longer of our risk and think it can't happen but there is a risk for what we value in our lives. I think Antigone touches a core within us that makes us uncomfortable - many of us risk death and some of us face death for what we value.
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That would be horrific if one in eight pregnancies ended in the death of the mother. Fortunately it's not that bad. If you scroll down in this article, you will see that in the US it's currently 21 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-report-maternal-deaths-dropped-by-half-over-20-year-span/2012/05/16/gIQArsE7SU_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-report-maternal-deaths-dropped-by-half-over-20-year-span/2012/05/16/gIQArsE7SU_story.html)
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That said, you're right that many of us are willing to risk death for what we value.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
Antigone
Schedule:
May 15-21 First half (Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE.
Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains")
May 22-28 Second half
Questions for the second half:
1. In the opening of this section, what is the chorus predicting?
2. It's been said that both Creon and Antigone are one-sided. do you agree?
3. In the argument of Creon and Haemon, what is each saying? Do you agree with either? How might this argument have been seen in the Greece of Sophocles' time?
4. What is the attitude of the populace toward Creon?
5. Now that she is about to be punished, how does Antigone feel about what she has done? Does she have any regrets?
6. Does Antigone offer any reason for her fate?
7. As the play goes on, Creon reveals more of his nature. What do we find out about him? What drives him?
8. Why do they keep on burying the body?
9. At the end,What does Creon find out about himself? Do you think that he will change? What do you see as the future for him?
10. Who is the protagonist? The antagonist? What is the fatal flaw? (See discussion for definitions of those terms).
11.What part does fate play in this drama?
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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Wow great - that is so much better than the articles I was reading that said we were up to the 12% from 11% and world wide the average was 19% - this is thousands of times better - I was shocked at that number as well - thank you, thank you - however, we seldom think about the risk when we are planning the nursery and the baby showers - that risk makes the disrespect for women all the more startling and also makes us realize the courage that we ignore for all moms. Since I have known over the years three women who lost their life giving birth there is a lingering memory of how devastating it is for the young family.
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This story is so compelling for me because I see that there is a clash of values that is often shaped by not only our beliefs but how we see our responsibilities in life.
For years I have been heavily reading to better understand Power and Evil - I realized along the way that some Evil is how I view the world as compared to other views - I would like to believe that there is a common shared value system and where I was accepting there are cultural difference I saw those that shared my religion, politics and even gender as playing power games rather than my seeing this clash that takes place as each individual views their place in the world based on their identity and responsibilities.
Not to say we use our power to manipulate - as one book I remember points out the power tactics a five year old will use to get a sweet or toy - it is when folks use power to over-power - to put down - to even destroy another's reputation, belief in themselves, not allow them the freedom to be who they are -
Helpful was when I read a quote that said something about Evil being a lack of light - and Power is used on others to their detriment by people who can - Still I searched - I cannot enlighten all those who are evil and yet, I became more and more aware enlighten to what - my viewpoint? my values? - Oh it is difficult and I do often slip astonished when someone sounds like they are coming from a different point of view - but each time it is as if a mirror to question my own values - and with this story I am finally accepting there is no utopia - there will always be clashes - not out of folks being mean, uncaring, unjust, or trying to subjugate for the sake of a Power game - but because they need to have the control that allows them to bring circumstances within their control.
OK after all that I can see Jude I am sorry - I was not honoring your views - I was seeing them in opposition and tried to make the case - sorry sorry - I do not agree but then we know that - hmm is that what a discussion is - to make the case for our views - now I am in a muddle - ok - a cup of coffee and some mediation is in order - I know - sounds dramatic - but this story really has me by the tail and is opening a big wide window how to respect other's opinions while still championing my own ...
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Barb
Don't worry.
I am not upset or put off by your views.
However there is one point that I really disagree with.
That is when people join the army they are not usually preparing for death but trying to learn how NOT to die. Also a lot depends on wether your country is in danger or what exactly you are defending.
Many, many also join up not because of noble motives but because it is the best thing the world is offering them at the moment.
I even know of cases in which in a juvenile criminal court the Judge tells the young man: "Go to prison or join the army. Your choice."
If you take a hundred men and ask them for their motives for joining the armed forces you will get at least 50 different answers. I doubt one will say," I am not afraid to die for my country". Unless of course he\she is a braggart or afraid to reveal his\her real motives.
Certainly there are very few women that think:" if I get pregnant I might die." If you are thinking of what is known as "High Risk Pregnancies" than the choice is not one of values but of deciding how to LIVE ones life and not how to die for it.Women die but not many., When a woman finds out that she is pregnant, I doubt her first thought is this means death. Except of course if she is unmarried and living in a society that kills unwed mothers.
As for Antigone ,"the lady doth protest too much".
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hmmm on the soldiers - yes, there is all that you say especially during peace time - I am thinking aloud and these are things that enter the picture for me - yes, the soldiers train to stay alive as you say and yet, I am remembering when they went into battle, mostly during WWII wrote farewell letters home - sure some ran or hid but many put a noble viewpoint on the risk they knew they were taking and were willing to give their all for their country - their fellow soldiers - for their family's future wellbeing -
To me all that is a country or city state are the people - each family added to another family and another friend - the rest is Real Estate although even that - it is someone's home and folks will fight to protect it. Once a fight goes beyond words there is the risk that somehow, folks are not oblivious and they decide their need to protect what they value is greater than their life.
I know you are right about women's instinct to think of the future life rather than to be fearful or filled with exceptional courage, just as soldiers train to protect their life and their country rather than be fearful - I do think we habitually minimize the risk so that the fear does not overwhelm and stops us from moving forward - I remember talking with other young pregnant women when I was pregnant not about the fear of my death but the fear of the baby dying during its birth - many of us would wake up with nightmares that our baby died at birth - so I do think there are some events in life that we muster courage or we take on the event looking and sounding fearless in order to protect what we value.
I also think today some often hand over their fears to God but in the days of the Greek Gods they were not as dependable - later in history we have many stories of folks holding their head up high and walking to their death - all because they would not renounce what the leadership at the time wanted.
During this time in history I do not see Antigone finally doing what she thinks is right and then high tailing it out of Thebes - which is what finally a domestically abused women with outside help will do - that to me was her downfall - she had no outside help to get her out of Thebes and so she was boxed in. She would also have had to cut all her ties with her family and that is not easy either.
I think she was put in an unattainable situation and she was angry lashing out - that is how I see both of them lashing out at each other because the other won't budge to see and make room for their responsibilities in life. Oh dear we are going around and around - I see it one way and others another - so far I cannot get a handle on seeing this another way - I will try to be open but what can I say... I think it is too easy to put labels on folks who act in a way we do not understand or agree with and that is maybe what is chaffing -
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Why do you have to see it another way, Barb? The reason this play has survived for so long is that is has something for everyone, and can be interpreted in a number of ways.
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Something for everyone--what's particularly interesting me at the moment is power, and Creon's use of it. He has been regent of Thebes several times before, but now, for the first time, he is really the king, and he's developing his style of ruling. It shows his personality, and not always for the good.
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Martyr complex. That fits beautifully, JUDE. Being more of an Ismene type myself, I
would be inclined more to 'fool' than heroine, but the very word 'complex' says that this
is much more than simple foolishness. Thanks for that insight.
Can't see martyr complex as the attitude of the average volunteer soldier, BARB. Most
of them enter with more of an attitude of 'gotta do it necessity' and probably a desire
to not make a bad showing of it.
We don't really know much of anything about Antigone before this event, so it's hard
to say what her general behavior was like. From various comments by Creon and the chorus,
tho', I gather she does have a reputation for being stubborn and outspoken.
PAT, (et al) what do you think of Creon’s statement, “Lawful authority must be obeyed in all things, great or small, just and unjust alike;..”? Just and unjust? Not in my view. Obviously, our founding fathers did not take that viewpoint either. And considering the number
of governments that have been violently driven out in the past couple of years, most people
do not.
I really sympathize with Haemon. He tried to approach his father diplomatically and respectfully. Again and again he assured him of his love and concern for him. He
I have to admire his words, “..no son can find a greater prize than his own father’s fame,
no father than his son’s.” Then he goes on to urge him, “Therefore let not this single thought possess you: only what you say is right, and nothing else.” It’s a pity his father would not listen to him. He starts off by accusing him of being 'the ally of the woman’, becomes more and more angry, and ends by calling him 'a woman’s plaything’. At the end he can only accuse his son of being ruled by a woman, a thing that he finds unbearable. His contempt for women really surfaces here.
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Babi, you've put your finger on what I feel about Creon. He has a sort of arrogant, single-minded inflexibility. In my book I underlined the passage you quoted (it's even closer to what I feel in my book "...that man the city places in authority, his orders must be obeyed, large and small, right and wrong." I also underlined the sentry's remark "Oh it's terrible when the one who does the judging judges things all wrong."
Creon totally fails to see that there must be limits to a good ruler's power; it cannot be absolute.
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Today starts the second half of the play, but that doesn't mean we have to stop our good conversations about the first half. I put the new questions at the top of this page; old ones are still on the previous pages if anyone wants them. JoanK will post some more technicalities about Greek drama later.
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As promised, here is an interesting quote about the structure of Greek drama:
" A Greek tragedy has the following characteristics:
It is based on events that already took place. The audience is familiar with these events.
The protagonist (main character) is a person of noble birth and stature.
The protagonist has a weakness and, because of it, becomes isolated and suffers a downfall.
Because the protagonist's fall is not entirely his or her own fault, the audience may end up pitying him or her.
The fallen protagonist gains self-knowledge. He has a deeper insight into himself and understands his weakness.
The audience undergoes catharsis, a purging of emotions, after experiencing pity, fear, shock and other strong feelings. The people go away feeling better.
The drama usually unfolds in one place in a short period of time, generally about one day. "
Source: http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides6/antigone.html
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The weakness refered to above is sometimes called the "fatal flaw". It's referred to in the questions above, where I ask: who is the protagonist in Antigone, and what is his/her fatal flaw?
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This structure of greek tragedy is one of the things I see in common with opera. So different from most drama we go to, where we want to know "what happens." We know when we go to an opera (Remember the scene in "Moonstruck" where Cher complains "you didn't tell me that she dies!") and go for other reasons. Is "catharsis" one of them?
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Creon’s ideas of government are surprisingly self-centered. I thought the Greek’s treasured
a more democratic approach to government. He feels he has to right to do whatever he likes.
“The King is lord and master of his city.” He feels that to 'regard my own prerogative’ is perfectly just. “Am I to rule for them [the people of the city] not for myself?” Uh, well, yes. That's my idea of the role of a king, ie, protector of his people.
I note the curious (to me) role of the chorus again. Chorus asks the question of Creon whether
he intends to kill both Antigone and Ismene. Creon not only answers the question, he says
“Thank you”, apparently for reminding him that Ismene is not a guilty party. It that what's
happening?
I must remind myself that I need to bear in mind the Greek religious beliefs and mindset.
The chorus responds to Antigone by proclaiming her act as one that will bring her renown
while she yet lives and a glory that will long outlive her. I really am looking forward to
comparing Sophocles with the other tragedians we will be discussing. Do they all feel that
way? Considering the popularity of the play, I must think that the majority, at least, agree.
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Here's what the reference JoanK quoted in post 170 says about the chorus:
".......The chorus generally had the following roles in the plays of Sophocles:
To explain the action
To interpret the action in relation to the law of the state and the law of the Olympian gods
To foreshadow the future
To serve as an actor in the play
To sing and/or dance
To present the author's views.
In some ways, the chorus is like the narrator of a modern film or like the background music accompanying the action of the film. In addition, it is like text on the film screen that provides background information or identifies the time and place of the action."
I note the curious (to me) role of the chorus again. Chorus asks the question of Creon whether
he intends to kill both Antigone and Ismene. Creon not only answers the question, he says
“Thank you”, apparently for reminding him that Ismene is not a guilty party. It that what's
happening?
Yes, I think so. In Kitto, Creon says "thank you"; in Fagles and Fitzgerald, he says he won't kill "the one whose hands are clean--you're quite right."
In Fagles, it is the Leader of the chorus (or of the old men of Thebes) who speaks.
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Could this play possibly be a fight between Church and State?
It seems for as long s there have been divinities there has been this clash.
I have a book called Greek and Roman writers that I found in a library sale when we were reading Odysseus.
The author, who teaches this subject,says much about the play but I will quote only the last part of his last paragraph:
"As you read the play , note that the clash of personsis not simply one between a virtuous heroine and a bullying villain: Antigone is a girl stubbornly intent on doing which she is convinced must be done, while Creon is equally convinced HE is in the right. Note, too, the impossible position in which divided loyalties place Haimon."
Reverend Andrew T. Mcniff, O.S.C.
Catholic Education Division-The MacMillan Co.
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This play is truly one for the ages. While reading an article in The Economist about the a North Korean prison, it stuck me that not only is the person (criminal or political prisoner) punished for alleged crimes, but so is their family. The article said that it isn't unusual for three generations of family members to be punished for what one person supposedly did. If a prisoner escapes or causes trouble the family on the outside suffer, including murder. Sounds like Oedipus and his kin.
I am curious on line 1033 of the Bagg/Scully translation Antigone says:
"I'm the last daughter of the kings who ruled you."
As far as I can tell, Ismene is still alive. Kreon decided to spare her. Is Antigone referring to being the youngest, or does she no longer consider Ismene a family member? I noticed the we do not see Ismene again in the second half of the play.
Certainly sounds like it is a clash between church and state, Jude. Tirenias did come to raise his objections and warn Kreon of what might befall him if he persisted.
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"I'm the last daughter of the kings who ruled you."
Good get, JUDE. Ismene has been spared, but Antigone may not know it, and think she has been killed. Or it may be a simple mistake.
It could, indeed, be thought of as a clash between church and state, since Antigone is doing what her religion tells her to do.
But Antigone has an additional argument: duty toward his brother. Creon also has two arguments although that's not stated: duty to obey the law, and duty toward your country and against its foes. There are four ethical principles involved here.
Creon proves to be a poor representative of duty to law. While at the beginning, he is arguing ethical priciples, as he is challanged, these melt away, and we have -- what? But the principles are still there.
You could imagine situations where any of these principles are in conflict. How do we decide?
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Interesting thought, JUDE. I hadn't considered it in that light, though I have been
wondering how different, or similar, my stand on a religious issue might be compared to
Antigone.
I was puzzled by that remark of Antigone's also, FRYBABE. Again, Antigone seems to be
viewing herself in a manner that suggests, what is the old phrase? 'Delusions of grandeur."
Chorus says, “Your self-willed pride has been your ruin.” So, if she had left her 'self-willed
pride’ out of the picture, could she have accomplished her task secretly, without
offending either the gods or the authorities?
Creon proves to be a poor representative of duty to law.
Oh, yeah, JOANK. Cleon has some strange views on responsibility. Since he is not killing Antigone outright,
but merely sealing her up in a cave to starve to death, he claims “my hands are clean”. Is
this a dodge that’s been successful with the Greek gods?
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hmm Babi when the Guards first reported to Creon they did not know who it was that gave burial rights to the body - seems to me she did act in secret. At that point the only person she had confided in was her sister. Only after she is caught and does not act guilty as if she did wrong does she get accused of being prideful.
Are you thinking that Creon would have acted differently to her if she hung her head and admitted wrong - would she not still be punished - and if she was not strong standing up for her actions what would that say - that we are all slaves to the power that be and moral justification is less important than the skill and will of a leader?
I think as readers if we try to assign guilt or innocence - good or bad - drama or control - we are missing the dynamics that are rife in this story. This story can be the Greek version of a parable where attitude and actions can be a lesson in outcome. It is easy to minimize and label a character as unworthy whose actions make us uncomfortable.
The bit between Haemon and Creon was like a blueprint for teenage and father placing a marker on the choices of a teen. You can hear it now...
NO you will not take that girl to the prom - in fact you will never again see that girl or her sister -
But Dad I know you have more experience but are you sure - I do see them in school everyday and of all the girls she is the smartest -
At your age you still obey - that whole family is a menace - her brother used his knowledge of our neighborhood to try to rob all of us and caused the death of our leader, her other brother -
But Dad it is not right to punish his sister -
Like it isn't right to punish those who planned 9/11? Grow up -
But everyone is for her -
Everyone? Like all those who danced on a float at night in the river so two of your classmates drowned - Everyone who climbed the mountain without a guide and lost their life - these are the Everyone who should be taking over my job and leading this community...
The community and school activities do not belong to just you
Enough Haemon Go to your room
On and on the banter goes even as Haemon climbs the stairs to his room - In comes his wife, Haemon's mother -
Are you sure you want to do this Creon
Not you too - no one questioned leadership in the past - the final word is the final word and my final word is that boy is not going to the Prom and will not see that girl and her sister ever again if we have to keep him locked in this house. We have no idea what hoodlum friends of the brother from the next town that girl has befriended and they will be trying to rob our houses. This time our house was spared but what do you say to your neighbors who can only sleep with one eye opened because of the invasion into our community by her brother.
Yes, I understand but Haemon is your son
Yes, he is my son and needs to learn to obey - if everyone thinks their opinion should be the way we do things we will be lost in sorting out opinions and handling the losers who will be unhappy. We have leadership to protect ourselves from the squabbling and unhappy outcomes so that we can live in peace - it is easy to want our hearts to rule but that is what this girl's brother did and where did it get him?
Wife goes to the upstairs craft room - soon Haemon comes into the room telling his mother how unfair his father is acting.
Does she commiserate with her son and let him know her heart or does she support her husband and repeat to her son the rational for his father's behavior?
As readers, we can read this with our heart or our heads - I am thinking that today we may see this as a Church/State dichotomy - we can also see this as a clash of cultures as we take on al-Qaeda and other aggressive conservative groups who want the downfall of a more liberal society. The dynamics are so indicative of conflict today.
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BARB: THAT'S BRILLIANT! You're exactly right!
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I was very interested to hear that Sophocles was said to have recited parts of Antigone on his deathbed. That's the rumor, it may be apocryphal. If not, I'd love to know which part of Antigone he thought the point, which part he felt had the most resonance.
I like this question in the heading:
8. Why do they keep on burying the body?
It's hard to keep track of the burying. Even now I'm not sure this is right? After Antigone buried Polyneices the sentries found the body when they caught her tidying up the grave (line 478) and uncovered the body and left it (500) on a hilltop. She came along and brought handfuls of dust and an urn and tried in that way to "rebury" it (520). So then apparently it was left out (was it uncovered again or did she not really get enough handfuls of dust on it before they apprehended her?) and it's scattered by the dogs....
Here comes Teiresias, the blind prophet, and it seems that he is the one who reveals to Kreon the wrong in what he's done. At least he reminds him that (in lines 1240 on) he's
"dishonored a living soul with exile in the tomb...
You are detaining here, moreover,
a dead body, unsanctified, and so unholy...
Therefore, relentless destroyers pursue you,
Furies of death and deity;
they lie in wait for you now
to catch you in the midst of your crimes...
All the enemy nations will be aroused,
all whose altars are stinking and corrupted
with the torn fragments the dogs, wild beasts, and birds
bring."
It is probably that last that gets to Kreon, the thought that the enemy nations will be outraged by his altars with torn dishonored fragments on them, corrupted and the Furies after him; but either way, he begins to see the error of his ways. So he burns the remains the dogs have dragged off and "heaped him a barrow of earth of his homeland,
straight and lofty..."
So he buries it. (Is it Kreon who does the actual burying? In my text it's hard to say, the Messenger sort of slides over that.) He seems to be burying it to save his own neck, to make it "right," to finally honor the dead whom he has defiled.
And then (the thing is full of doubles, parallels, duplicity) he proceeds to "unbury" Antigone from her own stone living tomb but it's too late. and for Haimon too.
So he finally realizes (in 1510 ff) his error and the Chorus at last seems to be on the right track, and gives a moral to the story which seems to be:
"To be sensible and to be pious
are the first and last of happiness....the proud pay with great wounds...And great wounds before today
have taught sense even to the aged."
But the Chorus throughout, to me, is the most confusing thing in the whole piece. They seem to me to be all over the place, I don't see a lot of wisdom, they seem vacillating, they are no help, are they reflecting the crowd's sensibilities? I don't understand their positions or the reasons for it, unless it's to share in the blame too.
I did like Antigone's speech on Niobe:
I know of her death;
like tightened ivy a strong growth covered her.
Now she shrinks in incessant rain and snowfall,
and off her brow, a cliff,
fall tears to drench the hill breast.
Mine is like her death night.
Isn't that fantastic? There's a great rock in Turkey which is supposed to be Niobe turned to rock:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/niobe/niobeweepingrock.jpg)
Of course the Chorus is right there to tell her she's not a demi god like Niobe, so in that they take Kreon's side as well, and in so doing completely miss the point of her speech.
And as Babi said a while back, Kreon is really revealed in this second half as to why he's really done this, for instance here: (821 ff)
That's why we have to defend orderly people,
and never let women get the better of us.
If we must fall, better to fall to a real man
and not be called worse than women.
He won't listen to anybody. The Chorus and the attendants like Koryphaios fawn on him and agree with him, and in so doing they themselves have to bear some of the blame, too. They are all wrong ultimately, and she appears the only one with enough courage to stand up for what's right.
To me, it's a tragedy, and I think the climax is when Kreon realizes his mistake:
Line 1289: "I've changed my mind.
I did it and I'll undo it..."
But it's too late. Or might the climax be when she is discovered dead?
At any rate his tragic flaw, I would say, is pride, thinking he knows more than anybody else and his perceptions are the only ones which matter, and as the Messenger says, "he's lost everything."
Sic transit. A really great choice of a play. I'm glad I had the chance to read it even tho the Chorus to me makes absolutely no sense. I wonder if you could see it, them turning back and forth as they pronounce their comments. Would that make more sense and really add to the drama? Have any of you ever seen it performed?
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Only bits of it, not the chorus. I agree. sometimes, the chorus seems to be just a bunch of Thebans: other times, they are the author and give the moral.
But notice Pat's post 174 on the role of the chorus. that's what they do, all right. I keep trying to make them into one thing, or one person, but it doesn't work!
let's see if this is true in the other plays too.
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From post 170 above:
The protagonist (main character) is a person of noble birth and stature.
The protagonist has a weakness and, because of it, becomes isolated and suffers a downfall.
Because the protagonist's fall is not entirely his or her own fault, the audience may end up pitying him or her.
The fallen protagonist gains self-knowledge. He has a deeper insight into himself and understands his weakness.
I forgot to post about the antagonist. the protagonist's fall is due to an "antagonist" who may oppose him/her.
In this play, who is the "protagonist"? And who the "antagonist"? And what is the weakness or fatal flaw that leads to their destruction?
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Jude's question in message # 156 is intriguing : "Is Antigone a heroine or a fool ? I hope we'll get back to it. \Toward the end of the play we hear her own words, and both she and her words sound changed. But I will not jump ahead.I fee there is moe to be said about Creon.
My copy of the play, translation by Prof. Paul Woodruff, has copious notes similar to yours, and the footnotes refer mostly to alternative linguistic choices which do not appear (to me) to be significant for the understanding of the contemporary reader. ierestingly, he reports that his students generall favor Creon over Antigone. (He is still with us and we could ask him whether those students afe all men ;D .)
continuing ...
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JoanK,
the question of what the flaw or essential weakness is in this drama may call for a conclusion. For my part I do not feel quite ready for that. I would like to first add my comments regarding Creon. He is mentioned in a list of the Theban kings beginning with Cadmus, and what is said about hin in that reference may be worth reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theban_kings_in_Greek_mythology
I checked the link and it works. Just scroll down to the list of names, all kings - except for Creon, who is listed as as regent (for Eteocles and Polyneices). Creon lived on after Antigone's death, the history of Thebes continued, and Creon became regent once again for the son of Eteocles. And years afer that for Heracles, so of Alcmene and Zeus in the guise of her husband Amphitrion.
I will elaborate on these thoughts tomorrow. It is late and the artificial light is hindering rather than helping. I can't spot my typos in time and, frankly, that offends my sense of order >:( jhahaha
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Far be it from me to assign guilt of innocence. BARB ...unless I'm on the jury. I'm more interested in Antigone's motivations, and why she chose the path of open defiance.
Antigone’s words, “Yet what I did, the wise will all approve.” She goes on to say
that she would not have defied the civil law for a husband or a son, for they would be
replaceable, whereas her last brother was not. Very shocking, from the modern viewpoint. However, my explanatory notes state that this entire section has been questioned. Some believe they were not written by Sophocles, but were quotes inserted from Aristotle’s “Rhetoric”, ie..
“But since my mother and my father|Have both gone to the grave, there can be none| Henceforth that I can ever call my brother”. (Rhet. 3, 16.9, lines 911-12)
What puzzles me is, would it not be more natural to assume that Aristotle had quoted the words from Sophocles, since Sophocles predates him by a century? Especially since the introduction notes that Aristotle, in his “Ethics” expressed the view that “Sophoclean drama brought the genre of tragedy to its consummate achievements...”. Obviously he has a high regard for the tragedian.
Here, at least, are some lines from Antigone that I can empathize with. “If this is what the Gods approve, why then, when I am dead I shall discern my fault; If theirs is the sin, may they endure a doom no worse than mine, so wantonly inflicted.”
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Ah, I think what she is saying is that she could find another husband and have another child but there is no way she can reproduce or replace a brother -
I take is as the daughter of the king she probably pretty much had freedom that others in the city or the palace may not have had - She is dealing with a person taking over as king that is not her brother or her father - she would have to get used to her new role where his children, namely Haemon is more important. Then part of feeling she is being put in her place as less important by this new king was accomplished with a pointed attack. He made an edict that is a direct affront to her family - I think this is a battle of wills - and both have stepped into their stubborn prideful mode.
I see this as a clash that was bound to happen and toe to toe they are into it with no winners - I just do not think a change in her attitude would have made a difference - the only difference I can see is if she obeyed the edict and not attempted to bury her brother. When it comes down to it why in the world would Creon choose to create this animosity between himself and the two sisters. No one else was affected on an emotional level -
The unburied body would be just one more dead body to the rest of the city but to the two sisters that was a huge affront - was he trying to assert his power since the father and brother of these two sisters was so loved by the city and he believed he has to wrest power by showing the bad side of this family and making sure the sisters were under his thumb.
All we can really do is imagine and project our thinking on why either Antigone or Creon acted as they did - other than to accept what the story tells us - oh there may be scholars over the generations who want their ideas used to explain the story and the behavior of the characters but their ideas are just that, their ideas based on their research and study - we just do not know - the story is what it is and motive is stated - if the motive written is not satisfying I think that is saying we, as individuals cannot imagine acting in this manner because of these motives and we want more justification for what they did -
I've been down that road for years in my personal life - I remember learning a lesson when attended a meeting of folks discussing childhood traumas and one girl shared her father drove over her sled that she left in the driveway and in tears explains how this caused her untold grief that her father did not love her - the rest of the room looked in shock since they were dealing with far, far more abuse till we finally had to accept that we can not measure the depth of anyone's anguish nor judge if they are worthy of their feelings -
And so, my thinking is we cannot judge the depth of feeling Antigone had for her brother or how the edict denying him burial rights affected her other than, to accept the story showing us her feelings rather than, thinking she is over playing the part or, as if the the part is written as a dramatically, over the top, play-acting within the play to gain attention from the audience for her character. This is the story we are reading - if it is based on facts that is beside the point - we are reading this play with these characters saying and doing these things with the motives given that we may not share the same reaction to those motives.
If we are questioning the way the characters have expressed their motives I think it only appropriate to look at the alternatives given the circumstances. Of course by doing that we are re-writing the play to meet our idea of how folks are supposed to act and re-act to what life throws at them.
Today, when a clash happens one side wants to determine the motive of the other in a way that makes their cause look worthy and then, the winner is the one who places into the annuls of history the motive as they see it and in the process they often re-write history.
Yes, today we do have a different set of values than what folks valued during the time of Sophocles and yet, so much about this play with different reasons for a clash is still the blueprint for conflict - it is as if the issues have changed in their importance but the system that is the blueprint of conflict remains.
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Yes, today we do have a different set of values than what folks valued during the time of Sophocles and yet, so much about this play with different reasons for a clash is still the blueprint for conflict - it is as if the issues have changed in their importance but the system that is the blueprint of conflict remains.
The blueprint of conflict. Good phrase; it does make the play timeless.
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Cpnflicy indeed. But it began earlier namely when Oedipus sons, who iitially were to switch their reign annually, had the falling out. Eteocles refuswed to step down, expelled his elder (!) brother, who escaped to Argos to get togethef an army of sympathizer. And when they came marching in, there was the potential for civil war.
Their mutual fratricide on the battlefield then became Creon's concern.
We are not sure of what age Antigone was at that time. We know that Oedipus was king long enough to see the sons and daughters grow up.
After his disgrace he stayed on in Thebes for an unknown period, then left accompanied by Antigone. After his death she returned.
We also don't now when Antigone and Haemon were betrothed, But it can be assumed that they were not teenagers any more. To be frank, since I first read the play long ago, I have had the feeling that Haemon liked Antigone more than she him. And we do not learn of this relationship right away, either.
In re question 1. Here is proof, if any were needed, that siblings can be totally different in their characteristics and predispositions. Ismene had the same perspicacity as Antigone, but she showed no sign of Antigone's impulsiveness and more aware of the mortal danger that would follow Antigone's conceived action, and willing to actually talk about it. Which is what the sisters did. Their conversation at the beginning of the play began "mildly" enough, though it seemed that Antigone had already decided to execute her plan.When Ismene was horrified, Antigone prodded and then spoke to her in words that made me wince. The reader knows from the very outset that the die is cast - Alea iacta est.
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Straude :thanks for letting us know what happened to Creon after the play is over.
From her citation:
:After the deaths of Polyneices and Eteocles, Jocasta's brother Creon, who before had governed Thebes after the death of Laius and after the exile of Oedipus, became regent for Eteocles' son Laodamas. It was during one of Creon's reigns that Heracles was born in Thebes. Creon served as protector of Heracles, his stepfather Amphitryon, and mother Alcmene. Creon even gave his daughter Megara in marriage to Heracles. In return, Heracles defended Thebes in two more wars that Thebes became entangled in, first against King Erginus of Minyan Orchomenus, then against King Pyraechmus of Euboea.
After the death of Eteocles and Polynices, Creon prohibited a proper burial of Polyneices and his Argive allies. Theseus, King of Athens, led an army against Thebes and compelled Creon to give the fallen heroes the correct rites. When Eteocles' son Laodamas came of age, Creon resigned the rule to him. Like his father, King Laodamas was confronted with an attack by the Epigoni, the sons of the Seven led by Polyneices' son Thersander. The Epigoni succeeded, and Thersander was installed as king of Thebes. King Laodamas was killed died during this war."
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Nobody's motives are simple black and white in this play. Creon's excuse for not burying Polynices is that he is a traitor. But what kind of treachery is it to attack your city if you are the lawful ruler who has been pushed out? Not quite straightforward.
The deaths of the brothers is more complicated than this play brings out. When the siege of Thebes was stalemated, neither side able to win, it was decided to settle the matter by single-handed combat between the brothers. That didn't work, since they were both killed; the fighting resumed, and Creon finally won.
Traude, I too felt that although we see Haemon's strong love for Antigone, we don't see reciprocal feelings in her. She expresses regret that she won't get to be a wife and mother, but Haemon isn't mentioned.
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So many good thoughts here: thank you.
The passage where Antigone says she would do what she did for a brother, but not for a husband or child shocked me. Fagles says that scholars have been trying to prove that Sophecles didn't write it for centuries. It does diminish Antagone's heroism in my eyes, and those of others.
The argument is given in Aristotle for a case in which a woman can save the life of either her husband, child or brother. She choses her brother, since only he cannot be replaced.
This, Fagles points out, makes more sense than Antigone's argument. For Antigone, it's not a case of saving a life, so lack of replacement shouldn't come into it. Even so, Fagles thinks the passage is a genuine part of the play.
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It does point out something about Antigone: have you noticed how little affection she seems to have for anyone besides her brother. She sneers at Iwsmene, and never even mentions Haemon by name, only in the abstract. Of course, we never get to see the two of them together.
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Pat: we were posting together!
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I get the impression that Antigone is wanting to have an intimate connection with those in the afterlife - just as some today want a deeper connection with God - she sounds like she has a yearning and aching for a connection that for centuries many have devoted their lives to a monastery where a contemplative life is possible just to become closer to God.
At this time in history there was not among the Greeks the knowledge, much less belief in one God and so, the concept of eternity and that pull that aches in our heart that we call a pull towards God is understood and explained as those who are below, no longer with us as well as, the many gods.
I will bury him.
It seems fair to me to die doing it.
I will lie dear to him, with one dear to me,
a holy outlaw, since I must please those
below a longer time than people here,
for I shall lie there forever. You, though,
dishonor the gods' commands, if you wish.
Yes, I can see how she does not seem to have the same need for intimacy with Haemon or her sister or even her future - when she says she will be the bride of Death it is as if she is a bride to eternity and she wants to be remembered as a Holy outlaw - How many saints in the annuls of church history were considered Holy outlaws - How many who questioned and rebelled against the political and governing aspect of the Roman Catholic Church, like Luther, are considered Holy outlaws.
Antigone has a view of herself as an independent individual. As the chorus says, alone of mortals, you will go, the ruler of yourself. She will not be a slave to men or kings and she is capable of acting with devotion equal to any man as compared to her sister who very much spoke knowing her place in society therefore, her obedience to man-made law. As straudetwo reminds us siblings can be totally different in their characteristics and predispositions.
Wow truer words were never spoken Pat Nobody's motives are simple black and white in this play.
although I wonder if each character sees their motive as pure white and those in disagreement as black - leaving us the reader or those watching the play to see both sides of each position.
Could that be the confusion we notice of the Chorus - they are commenting on the black and white within each position and they are not coming down on the side of one versus the other. In one section they speak highly of Antigone being a ruler of herself and then they agree with Ismene that she is sacrificing her body because for a women Reverence is not tolerated.
Reverence is a mark of character,
but power, for a man who has it,
does not tolerate offenses against itself.
Your self-guiding anger destroyed you.
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Hmm I wonder - was Antigone's story the basis for the actions - a prototype for us to understand and give value to other Holy Outlaws like the seven Jewish brothers, their mother and their teacher, known as the Holy Maccabean Martyrs or Holy Maccabees or the Holy Outlaws, named from the description of their martyrdom in 2 and 4 Maccabees. Antiochus prohibited the practices of the traditionalists - a departure from usual Seleucid practice, banning the religion of an entire people. Some scholars argue that while the rising began as a religious rebellion, it was gradually transformed into a war of national liberation.
Antigone was not one of several like a Maccabee or a Joan of Arc raising an army in rebellion - her belief rose within her and she dies alone for her belief.
Another called a 'Holy Outlaw' is lifelong peace activist Father Daniel Berrigan, a Jesuit priest, poet, pacifist, educator, social activist, playwright and lifelong resister to what he calls "American military imperialism." One of the country’s leading peace activists of the past half-century.
In 1967 arrested at the Pentagon. He with the group spent a couple of weeks in a fast while in Jail. In 1968, he traveled to North Vietnam with Howard Zinn to bring home three U.S. prisoners of war. Later that year he made national headlines when he and eight others burned draft files in Catonsville Maryland. In 1970 he spent four months living underground as a fugitive from the FBI.
In the early 1980s he helped launch the international anti-nuclear Plowshares movement when he and seven others poured blood and hammered on warheads at a GE nuclear missile plant in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. This launched the Plowshares movement - e.g. a group in Dublin went into Shannon airport and poured their blood, and did symbolic damage to an American troop plane that was secretly refueling at Shannon on its way to Iraq. They were tried three times and finally acquitted by an Irish jury.
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Holy Hannah so now we have Romeo and Juliet and Romeo's mother kills herself - I wonder how many other Greek stories are the basis for a play written later in history.
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Interesting - not much different today between the "right" and liberals -
I know well that no human is strong enough to pollute the gods.
The footnotes indicate this refers to an idea contrary to traditional Greek piety, but in vogue with 5th-century Athenian humanism and rational thinking.
Humanism attaches importance to human rather than to the divine or supernatural. Humanism is about the notion of human nature.
Secular humanism suggests reason, ethics, and justice, while rejecting supernatural and religious dogma as a basis of morality and decision-making. Religious humanism, is an integration of humanist ethical philosophy with religious rituals and beliefs that center on human needs, interests, and abilities.
Where as Greek piety refers to religious devotion, rituals and spirituality as a way to win the favour or forgiveness of a god.
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I wonder how many other Greek stories are the basis for a play written later in history.
Quite a lot--the Greeks invented most of the good plots. ;)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
Antigone
Schedule:
May 15-21 First half (Through scene with CREON, ANTIGONE, and ISMENE.
Until "The guards escort Antigone and Ismene into the palace. Creon remains")
May 22-28 Second half
Questions for the second half:
1. In the opening of this section, what is the chorus predicting?
2. It's been said that both Creon and Antigone are one-sided. do you agree?
3. In the argument of Creon and Haemon, what is each saying? Do you agree with either? How might this argument have been seen in the Greece of Sophocles' time?
4. What is the attitude of the populace toward Creon?
5. Now that she is about to be punished, how does Antigone feel about what she has done? Does she have any regrets?
6. Does Antigone offer any reason for her fate?
7. As the play goes on, Creon reveals more of his nature. What do we find out about him? What drives him?
8. Why do they keep on burying the body?
9. At the end,What does Creon find out about himself? Do you think that he will change? What do you see as the future for him?
10. Who is the protagonist? The antagonist? What is the fatal flaw? (See discussion for definitions of those terms).
11.What part does fate play in this drama?
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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Can anyone really replace a lost loved one? One may have another child to love,
but that doesn't lessen the pain of the one lost.
It may be that in early Greek culture Antigone had more freedom than the average
woman, but not necessarily. In most countries, members of royal families have
much less freedom; they are so carefully guarded and protected.
We don't know how long Antigone and Haemon have been betrothed, but I found an
article on early Greek marriage customs, and it stated: "Greek society stresses upon the marriage of a girl at the age of fourteen. Boys are found eligible at the age of thirty after they have served military force. Girls are obliged to marry where and who their father wants." Kind of leaves Antigone's age up in the air.
Someone mentioned Tieresias earlier, whom Creon welcomes and acknowledges as a prophet and wisest of advisors. That is, until Tieresias tells him he is wrong in this matter, at which point Creon immediately accuses him of being in the pay of his enemies. On the subject of the burial of Polynieces, Creon is obsessive to an extreme degree. He is determined the man shall not be honored in any way,
even if it alienates everyone around him. This is a very personal reaction. So, what does he have against Polyneices?
So, back to explore the explanatory notes. It seems when Polyneices was besieging Thebes, the prophet told him Ares was angry with the city because the origin of the Thebans began with the death of a son of Ares, the dragon from whose teeth the first Theban warriors arose. The only way the city could be saved was for one of the descendents of the ‘sown men’ to die. Creon’s son, Menoeceus, patriotically committed suicide. I think this must be the source of Creon’s hatred for Polyneices.
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We have to remember that the husband and son that Antigone regards as replaceable are theoretical. She has neither, and might feel differently if they were real people that she had become fond of.
She has not led a typical life. She was a child when Oedipus left the throne. He lived in the area of Thebes for a while, and when he left, she, now grown up, accompanied him as his guide. This would involve much more exposure to the world than most young women got, and also give her a strong sense of family responsibility.
One of my introductions said that her marriage to Creon's son would be expected for dynastic purposes.
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Looks like Creon left all the dead soldiers unburied.
All the cities are stirred by hatred, whose
mangled children took their only burial
from dogs and beasts—or some winged bird, bearing
an unholy stench into his native city.
Is the message of Creon not to wait to change an act of passion into an act or reason because if you wait you risk, as Creon risked and lost, the victims taking matters into their own hands.
Takes a bit but way after reading the story through I realized the impact on Creon of the death of his wife - like Antigone he no longer can replace a son with another and so he lost not only his son and wife but any future.
Like you Babi I too wonder how folks can replace a loved child lost in death with another - and yet, that is so often the advise given to a couple that loose a child and it is even a solution some couples choose to lesson their pain. I wonder if it has to do with the age of the child lost. Again, looking at this from our hearts there is little sense in the concept of lessoning pain with another child where as in the head it makes sense as if we are chess pieces swapping one for another based in biology and love is easily transfered.
From what you found on how girls are betrothed that suggests that Oedipus arranged the marriage between Antigone and Haemon - given the story of Oedipus all sorts of issues could be at the core of Creon's obsessive attitude toward Antigone and her brother, Polyneices - for all we know Creon could think Antigone is not worthy of his son and her death would be a welcomed relief believing Haemon would simply find another. We are not shown the inner workings of any of these characters other than as the story unfolds the facts of their behavior are recorded.
The chorus sure gives us a litany of other Greeks who were forced into horrible deaths. Reminded me of some of the Texans experiences during the early days when they were fighting for Independence from Mexico and some were captured, brought deep into Mexico and tied to stakes in the middle of a court yard, fed like animals, a few for years till they either died or were able to escape.
Conflict sure raises our capacity for inhumanity - never put that together before as another reason to quiet the passions and negotiate harmony. With all the horrors of war it increases our capacity for base inhuman behavior. Some succumb and others - aha yes, that was Frankel's story when he was in the camps as a holocaust survivor - some are able to keep their humanity and moral compass while good folks, fellow survivors can loose it.
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Looks like Creon left all the dead soldiers unburied.
Remember Achilles and Hector? Dragging Hector around the city of Troy in fury over the death of his friend, till his old father Priam came out to beg for the body?
To deny burial, to not have a funeral with honors, was to forever damn/ dishonor the person involved. Not so unusual in bitter battle.
However Creon was Jocasta's brother.
Jocasta was the wife/ mother of Oedipus.
She was the mother of Polyneices and Eteokles, who, depending on what source you read, didn't treat Polyneices well either, cheated him actually.
So that means that Creon was Polyneices uncle. It's one thing to dishonor the enemy, and you can find plenty of examples of that (and the reverse, too) but it's quite another to dishonor your own family.
To the Greeks this small thing to us would have been unthinkable.
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Here's a Freudian look at this play.
Line 944-Chorus to Antigone:
Your life's in ruin child-I wonder....
do you pay for your Father's terrible ordeal?
Lines 946-954 Antigone answers:
There- at last you've touched it, the worst pain
the worst anguish! Raking up the grief for father
three times over, for all the doom
that's strick us down, the brilliant house of Laius.
O mother, your marriage bed
the coiling horrors, the coupling there-
you with your own son, my father-doomstruck mother!
Such, such were my parents, and I their wretched child:
Chorus answers:
Your own blind will, your passion has destroyed you.
So , what we have is the one child out of the four who is so weighted down by the "Sins of the Fathers" that her will to live is easily overcome by the latest depressing event: her brothers unburied body.
This type of person cannot really feel affection for her betrothed. Her feelings are too tied up with the miseries of the past to expect or want anything of the future.
This reminds me of the "Death by Cop" phenomena. A way for authority to kill you so you die without the mark of suicide.
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Yes, yes Ginny - and it makes you wonder - from the story it sounds like Creon saw Polyneices turning on his family which means he had inside information about the city making any attack that much more lethal - almost like today if someone knowing the layout of a neighborhood and the contents of each home used that information to get his new band of friends to rob or cause some sort of havoc that if he was a stranger enemy they would not be as successful.
And then another issue - could it be since Creon's brother-in-law was a liked leader that in order to establish himself Creon had to show that his nephew was really a putz that was so bad bringing shame on that side of the family and Creon could make himself out as the hero - except this time his emotions to ruin and degrade was eclipsed by the city that still held Oedipus and his children in high esteem.
From the example of Achilles and Hector I do not get that the city folks were reacting especially to the treatment of the body as much as we today are horrified - I wonder if it was more loyalty and respect for Oedipus remembering how he acted when he learned he unknowingly acted within his prophesied fate.
Hmm maybe that is part of this story - those who live out their prophesy are more valued than those who attempt to be self-directed and that was why there is little sympathy by the chorus for Antigone. Today we see all this as nonsense that a women is a second class citizen and a slave to men but more than that, I wonder if it is not just because Antigone did not play the traditional role of a woman rather, she was a challenge to the traditional view of the gods when she was independently doing what she thought was right and therefore acting self-directed.
Jude we are posting at the same time - yes, I think that is it - her passion is to be self-directed - and the story is letting us know she is weighted down by the "sins of her father" - would that shame keep her tied to her past as if she had to feel guilt and that she had to avenge the past - sounds like it doesn't it.
Once we try to untangle the inner workings of these characters there are a million scenarios - we cannot sit across from them and get to their inner motive - all we have is our interpretation of the actions. What was taken years ago as a stubborn, willful, self-centered women to me is the view held back when we were young of 'woman's place' where as today, we can see Antigone as a strong woman speaking her heart and mind and willing to die for her beliefs.
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Yes, Ginny, Creon meant to leave all the dead enemies unburied, and that wasn't well received. The reference Traude quoted in #185 says:
"After the death of Eteocles and Polynices, Creon prohibited a proper burial of Polyneices and his Argive allies. Theseus, King of Athens, led an army against Thebes and compelled Creon to give the fallen heroes the correct rites."
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Thank you, Pat, I didn't read on in the Wiki reference in post 185, since Theseus is not in Antigone and the incident of The Seven Against Thebes appears to be covered in other sources.
Also, and again referencing material not in Antigone, in the struggle between Polynieces and Eteocles it's hard for me to see Polyneices as a traitor since he and his brother Eteocles were the rightful heirs, and agreed to split the kingdom equally between them. But when the first year was up Eteocles refused to yield his turn, and Polyneices, who had spent that year at the court of Adrastus of Argos, and married the king's daughter, was naturally enraged. It was his father in law Adrastus who got up the army headed by the Seven Against Thebes, one for each gate at Thebes, to regain his rightful place. He even asked his father Oedipus for help, who then cursed both of them to kill each other. Nice guy.
So with the rightful heirs dead, enter Creon, the Uncle, who takes over Thebes.
Euripides takes it up from that point in his The Suppliants, in which the mothers of the dead chieftains go with Adrastus to beg at the shine of Demeter to Aethra, mother of Theseus. Theseus yields to their pleas and recovers the bodies for burial by force. Evade, wife of Capaneus, throws herself on his funeral pyre.
The point of all this is it looks like one possibility for Creon's decision not to bury Polyneices may have been a reaction more perhaps to the imagined (or possibly real) threat of Adrastus and an Argive alliance which is thought to have been known at the time (422 BC ) The Suppliants was written, than thinking about the consequences. Creon may have been overreacting with his newfound power of regency by lumping Polyneices in with the other 6 Argive champions, and fearing a threat from Adrastus.
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those who live out their prophesy are more valued than those who attempt to be self-directed and that was why there is little sympathy by the chorus for Antigone.
Barb do you think that the majority of the ancient Greeks believed in predestination rather than self-determination? Or that just certain people were singled out for a predetermined destiny? Most of my knowledge of Greek philosophy has vanished, mostly because the only thing we studied in college was Plato's Dialogs. I remember it was pretty dizzying.
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Continuing the theme of burial: you're right, Ginny, Polyneices was buried three times. I put in question 8--why do they keep on burying the body--because of a complaint in one of the introductions. Why did Antigone try to bury the body the second time, after the religious requirements were met? The writer thought Sophocles put this in for plotting purposes. Antigone hadn't been caught the first time, and if she gets away with it, we have no plot. He suggested two rationales, and I thought of two more. Perhaps she had to cut things short because the guards were coming, and wanted to complete the ritual. Perhaps the first burial really was the work of the gods, as suggested by the leader of the chorus. This made Creon turn purple with rage, but there is a tiny bit of evidence--the sentry says that no animals had touched the body.
The two I thought of: the guards moved the body, leaving it uncovered, and their description suggests it was in poor shape. Maybe Antigone couldn't stand that, and wanted it covered up for decency. Or, if you believe that Antigone really wanted to be caught, she was giving them another chance.
The third burial is straightforward. There was no religious need, but once Creon had admitted his mistake, it was only respectable to provide a proper tomb.
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Frybabe I am not sure the thinking was predestination but with all this bird watching and prophecies, oracles and seers in addition to making sure the gods are satisfied doesn't sound to me like much self-determination going on.
I am having a difficult time of seeing Antigone as wanting to be caught - the very first part of the story has her checking with her sister if there was anything new from Zeus wanting to punish either of them and then she takes her sister outside the gate so 'that you alone might hear.'
She emphasizes this plan not to bury the brother is cooked up by Creon
Such things they say our good Creon decreed
for you and me—for me, I say!
And he is coming here to announce it
clearly to anyone who hasn't heard,
for he considers it no small matter,
but for the one who does any of it,
the penalty is death by public stoning.
If it is a death by cop wish than why would she ask her sister to accompany her?
Will you share in the labor and the deed?
ANTIGONE:
Will you lift the corpse with this very hand?
ISMENE:
You want to bury him, although it's forbidden in the city!
ANTIGONE:
I'll bury my brother—your brother, too,
though you refuse! I'll not be found a traitor.
Then she goes into her whole diatribe about Creon not having the right to keep her from burying her brother and how the gods and those under the earth tra la la la la.
I take from that she questioned first if they were being further punished by Zeus meaning she would take a different look at all this and if she was bent on a death wish seems to me she would not have asked her sister to help her. There is nothing to indicate the request for help was anything but ligament calling on her sister to have the same concern for the brother.
I guess I am trying to imagine the story if she were to accept the decree and if she did not take matters into her own hands - certainly if it was left to Ismene that would be her way of staying a virtuous women and a victim to those who would control even her basic relationship with her family.
I think to search for a reason to justify why Creon chose to defile the brother's body making sure the sister's were aware - he was making the trip to be sure both sisters were informed - that is like trying to explain the behavior of an abusive spouse - or soldiers in the field who abuse the citizenry when an officer is no where around - bottom line it comes down to they have the power and they can - Antigone stands up to that power - as many women who attempt to negotiate with 'the powers that be' are instead threatened - the guards looking to save their own necks search her out.
Had Creon not threatened the Guards they may have let the whole thing go but again, that is changing the story - what a story to outline for us the ambiguity of life. To come to terms with a gray world with no black or white is unsettling and it is amazing the stories we weave for ourselves in order not to have to face and live with ambiguity.
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Someone mentioned Tieresias earlier, whom Creon welcomes and acknowledges as a prophet and wisest of advisors. That is, until Tieresias tells him he is wrong in this matter, at which point Creon immediately accuses him of being in the pay of his enemies.
This seems to be one of Creon's fixations. Earlier, when the sentry tells Creon that the body has been buried, Creon assumes the guards have been bribed.
...Money! Nothing worse
in our lives, so current, rampant, so corrupting.
Money--you demolish cities, root men from their homes,
you train and twist good minds and set them on
to the most atrocious schemes. No limit,
you make them adept at every kind of outrage,
every godless crime--money!
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:( :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkRIbUT6u7Q&feature=related
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:D :D :D
My, they're good!
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Good point, PAT. I think one has to have their first child to fully realize how
precious they become to us and how ferociously we would defend them.
Was it customary to attempt to bury those hundreds of enemy bodies on a battlefield,
BARB? It is always done now, of course, but back then I believe family might come
to search for the bodies of loved ones, but the corpses were otherwise left to the
disposal of nature. Still, as PAT tells us, Athens did demand a burial of the "heroes". I suppose, actually, in those days, the number of those fighting and killed was much, much less than we see today.
You are so right about the inhumanity surfacing in wartime. All the creeps who
would in ordinary times have to hide their perversions seem to thrive in wartime.
Torturers, rapists, sadists...ugh!
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Here's an interesting article in enotes on why the burial meant a great deal to Antigone, another, perhaps, psychological possibility in our lists for her intransigence?
Mourning the dead was one of the few things women were allowed to do in ancient Greece, especially Athens. Women of well-born families were expected to stay at home in specially designated women's quarters at all times except during certain religions festivals. Marriages were arranged by a girl's father or guardian. Women were not true citizens of the democracy and could not speak or vote in the assembly. They were not even allowed to speak in court, a basic right for Athenian men.
Burying and mourning their dead relatives gave women an opportunity to do something important for their families. It brought women to the fore and gave them a role to play. When Creon forbids burial of Polynices, he denies Antigone the chance to do one of the few important things society allowed women to do. Thus, he is attacking her identity, and that is a large part of the reason she opposes his orders.
http://www.enotes.com/antigone-text/the-importance-of-burial-in-greek-religion
I found that while trying to find out how digging up a buried person might compromise the original burial.
Pat, what an intriguing question. I'm not sure, but I don't know for a fact, that the first proper burial was all that mattered and that the guards came by when she was tidying up the grave just for the sake of the plot. It could be, of course.
She may have had valid reasons for being there, tidying up. I keep, for my part, thinking about the nature of his first two burials: inhumation. Normally they were cremated (see http://www.colorado.edu/Classics/exhibits/GreekVases/essays/200636tburial.htm) but she did the best she could. Greece as we all know is a lot of rock and hard stony ground, it must have taken a lot to bury him the first time. And who, having buried somebody, especially under these circumstances, does not return to the grave site to move a blade of grass or arrange something?
When she finds him out of the earth (I'm glad there were no more burials, I lost count there for a while), she does the best she can and gets caught. It's hard to bury a dog on rocky ground much less a body which, by the admission of the guards, stinks as you say, so they had to move aside. So my take on it was she took the handfuls of dust and she held up the urn in supplication, hoping that the gods would take that as a proper reburial and she wouldn't have done that unless he had been defiled.
In Creon's final reburial, they seem to make a funeral pyre and also a "mighty mound of mother earth," and they offered a prayer to Pluto and the "goddess of cross ways." So apparently even if it's the "third?" burial, if you count Antigone's efforts, it matters. What an interesting question. I don't recall ever seeing anything on it (but there must be something somewhere). It makes me think of Sulla and Marius actually.
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Ok Ginny you have me curious now...
I wonder if the tradition of keening women during a funeral was because women were given an important role during burials.
I wonder if the burials were not a digging into the earth but rather, as in this part of the west, it was more a piling up of rocks to keep animals from the bodies so that mounds were created -
The first burial is described by the Guards as not so much digging into the earth - but it does say the body was hidden. The footnote says the sprinkling of dust is the most important part of the ritual.
GUARD:
And I'm saying it! Just now someone has
buried the corpse and gone off, sprinkling dust
over its flesh and performing the due rites.
CREON:
What did you say? What man has dared to do this?
GUARD:
I don't know, for there was no stroke of a
mattock or heap from a shovel, just hard
earth and dry land, unbroken, no trace
of wheels, but the workman worked without sign.
When the day watch first showed it to us, we
all thought it a most distressing marvel.
For, although he was hidden from sight,
he wasn't entombed per se, but there was
a little dust on him, as from one fleeing
a curse. Yet there weren't any signs of beasts
or a dog coming near him, nor did the body
seem mangled.
A mattock is a hand tool, used for digging and chopping, similar to the pickaxe. A cutter mattock combines an axe blade and an adze and a pick mattock combines a pick and an adze
(http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/public/y3-DlXfAAcyozAgsf85oaHcGFyDMfIsCwA0WbF-QPAWOPL2Qyj8FvJHI86NxG4KYDVmNKzqkSuhbPhof9foSu_vnjITm3sL0_d5gh_1QwDP_AxWazy5HLuCf3dCMPgqw3ZTaS3HOGZygHdvmLiLyTLduPWOrHcLv7h4f7kmmuECUyWLlIkidEtMs8UlKLHnccmbcC6SCVC6fy8EynIAFXNOTmaJDgWSw9taQxjyRCiPigWhpHuDbFn-8ppcJwBjDOrVKhn7oF5msxuUBIMfa6vAqnMb51jcGccjncSbgT0_h)
I used both a cutter and a pick mattock when I put my gardens in my front yard 3 or 4 years ago - there is about 3 to 4 inches of soil covering limestone - in a few places it is a limestone slab so I had to chip away the rock - I do not think I could do it now but I was successful as recently as 3 or 4 years ago - then I filled in with soil mixed with potting soil - in order to plant a bush or a tree many folks hire someone with a jackhammer - we are just west of the Balcones Fault and this limestone rock and caliche extends for miles and miles to the west.
That is why trees typically do not grow very tall unless they are watered in subdivision areas and also why a Live Oak is so admired - the tap root goes deep breaking through the rock and the roots store water that can last for years so that during a drought most come through.
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Back to the story.
It appears the Guards think the gods buried the body which does not sit well with Creon and so he accuses them of doing it for money. (that money thing again that Pat brought to our attention)
Then Creon flexes his power muscle so that the Guards must then save their own necks and prove they did not bury the body for personal gain.
GUARD:
Alas!
It's terrible when the one who judges judges wrong.
CREON:
Quibble now about judgments; but if you
don't show me who did this, you will affirm
Looks like she could be the scapegoat for the Guards who then distance themselves from her - someone is going to have to take the fall for this - this exchange makes it sound like the guards are trying to free themselves from the wrath of Creon and are leaving it to him to assess Antigone's guilt or innocence.
GUARD:
My lord, a mortal should never swear that
something cannot happen, for hindsight makes
liars of our plans. Just now I swore I'd
never come back here, because of those threats
you shot at me, but the greatest pleasure
is the joy you didn't even hope for.
I came here, despite my oaths to the contrary,
bringing this girl, who was captured performing
the rites of burial. This time no lot
was shaken; no, this one was my good luck,
no other's. Now then, my lord, you take her,
as you wish, and question and sentence her.
I've justly freed myself from these troubles.
Their explanation sounds like there was a dust devil that is typical during mid-day that they call a divine storm - here is a great explanation http://tinyurl.com/7mru5o3 and when the dust devil passes they see her ;) as Ginny says, tidying up
GUARD:
...
The whole sky was filled. We just closed our eyes
and rode out the divine storm. After a while,
it ended, the girl was seen, who was wailing
bitterly like the shrill voice of a bird
who sees her empty nest, stripped of its nurslings.
Thus she screamed, when she saw the uncovered
body: She groaned loudly and called down evil
curses on whoever had done the work.
Immediately she gathered dry dust
in her hands and from a jug of fine bronze
lifted up she crowned the corpse with three-fold
libations. We saw it and rushed forward,
caught her quickly, completely unperplexed.
We questioned her both about the previous
incident and the current; she stood in
denial of nothing, something for me
both sweet and painful, all at once. Nothing
is sweeter than escaping trouble for
yourself, but it's painful to conduct friends
into it. But, for me, everything
takes second place to my own safety.
Not much lee way here - the Guards with their demanding accusations, Creon wanting revenge and no one of importance to stand up for her she confesses - more than likely her clothes and face are dusty with tear stains streaking down her face.
I think she instinctively knows all she had left was her integrity - the Guards are too many and showing anger - an often response to fear and they were fearing their own death - she knows that Creon is not a friend, he did make a special trip to be sure the sisters know his plan for her dead brother and so if she is going to preserve any dignity her choice is to become part of the saga of her birth and she owns up.
At first she hangs her head but then she uses her final hours to unleash her anger challenging Creon. I see her acting like the people of Syria who, granted are many, are rebelling knowing that death is probable. She knows her end is all she has and she wants to make her end meaningful. Not accepting her sister's offering as a co-conspirator seems fitting on many levels - why completely wipe out the family - she knows her sister was not in favor so why see her death. It would take away from the purity of her action which is tied to her integrity and as Ginny found in her research, it would subtract from her identity as a woman.
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My computer has been up and down all day. So I'm using the interval when it's up to warn you. If I disappear, PatH will still be here.
It seems we still have a lot to say about Antigone. now that we all have finished at least one greek play, what do you think? Did the forms that we talked about earlier work out for you? The unity of time and place? the chorus?
This play certainly made us think. but the greeks thought that tragedy also gave a "catharsis" to the audience. Do you agree?
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OK this bit about burying and reburying and the whole issue of Antigone burying her brother along with Ginny’s post really got me going – so here is what I learned – I do think this helps us with some of what was going on.
Solon, in 594 BCE, 153 years earlier than Sophocles produces Antigone (441 BCE in Athens 430-429),
established changes to the laws associated with burial rituals – These changes were similarly established in most of the Greek City States as well as, among the religious cults. The picture we have of Antigone digging and burying her brother body was such a small insignificant part of what it meant to bury her brother.
I was able to read online The Ritual Lament in Greek Tradition by Margaret Alexiou, Dimitrios Yatromanolakis, Panagiotis Roilos. The first section is the most informative for understanding better Antigone’s role burying her brother.
Where women keening and wailing was a ritual in a funeral, those chosen for this task was based in the clan system that included those clans where intermarriage was permitted – Death laws were included with Marriage laws. There were various tiers of importance with the immediate family and then closest clan members having the right to wail while women from the outer tier clans of marriageable women made up those who did the keening.
Rituals were preformed on a number of days after the burial and Solon made it law that there was no longer keening when the cart brought the body through the streets to the place of burial. He reduced the days of ritual to 3 months from a year – part of the ritual involved women tearing at their hair and face with one hand while with the other hand they beat at their chest. Women should wear dark and not white clothing so as not to see the soiling and women were selected as offenders to be condemned and punished for disobeying the new laws with exclusion from sacrifice to any god for 10 years.
Ritual days were the third, fifth and tenth day but it is not clear if the count was from the day of death or the day of the funeral. Traditionally, funerals were between 3 and 7 days after death. If the body is burned it is the 9th day with the funeral procession taking place on the 3rd day
And so, when Antigone says she is the 'Bride of the Dead' she means that no one from her immediate family or from her clan or any greater clan members will be performing any of the rituals. Since the women at the funeral were designated by marriage and marriageability.
The dusting is part of the ritual performed on the day of the burial and on the 3rd, 5th, and 10th day – (Ginny's tidying up days but with a twist) the dustings are the sweepings of the household including human excrement that is supposed to keep evil spirits away and clean the house of the dead person. Solon’s law forbade the dustings be placed at the crossroads to the city. Houses were washed in sea water with Hysop - the household women washed in sea water with Hysop - again to get rid of the demons and the spirit of the dead.
The right to morn was curbed also; the laceration of the cheeks and limited was the wailing and keening, where and when it could take place. Limited is clan participation with the focus on family except, in the instance of the war dead or a young, newly married person.
The biggie – tra la la la... the limitations on ritual including bring home from the burial site all vassals and coverings so the site would not become a secondary alter encouraging hero worship. Limiting clan participation and follow-up was to forestall powerful noble families who might challenge the position of the king. The limits were aimed primarily at the rich because large clan funerals attract attention, which could arouse dangerous sentiments among the people.
Looks like Creon was increasing his position with the burial of Eteocles and making sure there was no sentiment among the people with a burial for Polynices.
Cult and clan rituals increase religious and political power. Limiting the scale and influence from private that stirred up feelings of incessant lamentation at the tomb by large number with professional mourners to excite a state of frenzy coincided with the women in cases of vengeance.
When there is no male survivor, the women maintain the consciousness for the need to take revenge by constant lamentation and invocation at the tomb crying out for blood.
Restricting women in funeral ritual removed the punishment in cases of homicide from clan to state.
As laws attempted to change funerals for heroes to large public festival celebrations on a fixed calendar date and open to all the people allowed the funeral and annual day of mourning to be a state event, which strengthened the leadership. Bull-sacrifice were still permitted at these state funerals especially when honoring the Marathon dead.
Limiting the family (clan) funeral was an attempt at limiting the wealthy that were the influential but it was uneven in practice so that poets of the classical period had this rich source of traditions.
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I read of the deaths of Antigone and Haemon, and The similarity with Romeo and Juliet can hardly be missed. At least this heroine really was dead when the hero decided to join her.
Most of my 'Greek classical' reading has really had little reference to Dionysus. I tended to
think of him as the 'orgy guy'. ;) The choice of Dionysus for one of the hymns becomes obvious once I knew his mother was Theban, one of the many 'brides’ of Zeus. That makes
him sort of a 'local hero' god, doesn't it?
Sophocles has the messenger close his message with “folly is the worst of human evils”.
Can’t agree with that. Folly can have evil, ie., tragic, results, but 'evil’ does not really fit.
I’m not clear if it’s Creon’s folly or Haeman’s that he refers to; but I’m leaning to Creon.
The root of Creon’s folly is rage, pride, and a hunger for vengeance. Now those are surely
on the list of major human evils.
(I really must get off this soapbox; my feet are getting sore. )
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Babi, I'm seeing a lot of Shakespeare-like bits in this play. Or really, of course, I'm seeing Sophocles-like bits in Shakespeare. :) The sentry would be quite at home as a Shakespearean clown.
Not only was Dionysus a theban, but don't forget that Greek drama evolved from festivals to Dionysus.
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So, Babi, are you picking Creon for the Protagonist and his flaw as rage or pride? People debate between Creon and Antigone, though I think there's a better case for Creon. I would pick Creon, but would pick lack of judgement or common sense as his flaw.
What does everyone think?
One of my versions closes with:
Of happiness, far the greatest part
Is wisdom. and reverence towards the gods.
Proud words of the arrogant man, in the end,
Meet punishment , great as his pride was great,
Till at last he is schooled in wisdom.
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Here's a 1984 television version of Antigone, with Juliet Stevens. It's pretty good, though it makes Creon look rather bad.
This link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWksyKZz_fE&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWksyKZz_fE&feature=relmfu)
starts with the sentry bringing news that the body has been buried, and goes on to the confrontation of Creon and Antigone.
This link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGT24uYPb2Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGT24uYPb2Y)
gives you the whole thing. (It's in 11 segments; there's a button to click to get them all to play.)
Warning: don't do what I did, and take a look at it at bedtime. I stayed up till one watching it, and didn't get enough sleep.
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Isn't there something that a protagonist is supposed to change because that would sure fits Creon.
Well it is time for me to get my own 'dustings' swept only mine will not be deposited on either the cross roads or in the cemetery - ah so - into the trash for the landfill I guess and down the drain - I have a week to pack, clean the house etc. in order to be out of here for a few weeks.
I do not know which was more valuable except they could be equal in value - this story showing how conflict is often based on a person's responsibilities and view of themselves carrying out those responsibilities are in direct conflict with other's equally valued identity and their responsibilities - an eye opener.
The other, years ago playing Sid Simon's Alligator River game and seeing among the good size group playing how among the group there were supporters for each of the 5 characters as being the better person. Their rational was backed with reasons - some we would never have guessed and other reasons that horrified others who had chosen another character - we learned that the same scenario can be seen and judged so differently and the magic learned was until you asked how they came to their decision you could never guess because we can only judge based on our own knowledge and life experience. - an eye opener.
So thanks - this was a conversation I will soon not forget and I am grateful for all the input to chew on. As usual a top notch group of thinkers and wow what a challenge for the discussion leaders to tackle such a philosophical discussion. Hats off to all - now I must roll up my sleeves and get going around here. Should be back in July except maybe a brief peek in if there is a quiet moment while visiting family.
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According to the schedule, this is the last day of our reading of Antigone. Let's give two more days, for windup thoughts, and to start reading Agammemnon.
For Thursday: first half of Agammemnon by Aesculus. (At the end Agammemnon and Clytemnestra Exit, the chorus speaks, and Clytemnestra re-enters to talk to Cassandra).
I'll put up questions and background tomorrow.
Is this too fast for anyone? Does everyone have their Agammemnon?
Meanwhile, for anyone reading their first Greek play, I'd love to know what you think
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BARB: sorry to hear that you are leaving the discussion. We will miss you.
Are the rest of us ready to move on?
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Barb have a nice time. I've enjoyed all your postings for Antigone.
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Yes, Barb. Your profound theological knowledge meant that you could add something the rest of us weren't able to do.
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Many, many years ago I was a poor student and had to stand in the back to watch a play. It was a performance of Lysistrata
by Aristophanes.
Lysistrata was a heroine for me then and remains one for me today. If I compare her with Antigone she comes out at least five paces ahead.
But perhaps Lysistrata was not such a tortured soul with a horrendous background like Antigone so she could be a wise and sagacious leader for her people. Especially for the women of her world.
So I see this play "Antigone" named after the protagonist (the play is not called Creon) who presents us with a world askew after a terrible war in which both her brothers are killed. This lady , does stand up for her beliefs, but causes such horror in her wake.
I wonder if the purpose of the play was to remind us that there are consequences to our actions. No matter how right we feel we are are, our acts may lift up or drag down others in the wake of our self proclaimed "righteousness".Both Creon and Antigone lose much in their battle of beliefs.
The words are sharp and clever, the characters clear and well drawn but what was the playwrite telling us.?
This play was written many years before Oedipus and Oedipus the King. So Sophocles was telling us to beware. Words, like acts, have consequences.
Most consequences can't be foreseen. Or perhaps, this is an antiwar play showing the unforseen consequences of a battle.
Finally I must say that this play has left me sadder than before I read it.
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I considered reading Lysistrata as part of women in Greek Drama. Whether we read the play or not, she certainly should be part of the discussion of strong women in Greek drama. The plot, for any who don't know it, takes place at a time when Athens is engaged in a seemingly endless war with her neighbors. Lysistrata and the other women decide to go on strike: they won't have sex with men until peace is declared. It works: the men try to bully or persuade them out of it, but in the end, give in and the peace treaty is signed.
The text of the play is mostly jokes about how hot and bothered the men are --- I thought it was a little raunchy perhaps for this site.
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Ah, good point, PATH. I hadn't remembered that about the evolvement of the Greek
drama from the festivals.
I think Antigone was definitely intended to be the protagonist, though of course
Creon was the essential counterpoint to her. Actually, Antigone's fatal flaw could
have been lack of judgment and common sense, as well as an overblown love of the
dramatic. Couldn't she have upheld her religious convictions without making a martyr of
herself? I think the wisest course would have been to send her to a nunnery (was
there an early Greek equivalent of that? ???) under a vow of silence. Much more
acceptable to all concerned than killing her.
Appreciate the two days to start reading Agammemnon. I will need them.
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I find my Fagles translation of Ag harder to read than Antigone, and have gone to a different translation. Please don't any of you struggle too much with a difficult translation. There are lots to choose from out there.
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In Agammemnon, we meet another family with a thorny past, and all the gods mad at it. (You think Oedipus's family had trouble --OYE!) But no Freud to come along later and make them famous, as he did the Oedipus complex. So if you're not familiar with the house of Atreus, I'll give background as needed.
To save typing, lets just call Agammemnon Ag whenever we get tired of typing his name.
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Background:
This, like Antigone, is a simple story that needs a lot of background to make it intelligible. The background is explained in the play, but explained for an audience that already knows it, so it's not very clear.
Agammemnon is of the house of Atrius. This family has a history that is even worse than that of Oedipus. That family history becomes important in the second half of the play, so more on that later.
Meanwhile, those of you who read the Odyssey with us know the story of Agammemnon. Homer repeats it again and again. Aesculus picked it up and elaborated on it, calling it "scraps from the table of Homer". But while Homer assigns right and wrong, Aesculus does not: rather he shows right and wrong on both sides.
Agammemnon had promised his brother Menelaus to help retrieve Menelaus's wife Helen from Troy, and the boy Paris that she had run off with. Ag starts out with a mighty fleet from Argos to Troy. But the wind blows against them: they wait for days but cannot sail. Finally, a prophet tells them that only if Agammemjnon sacrifices his daughter to the gods will the gods allow him to keep his promise.
So he tells his wife, Clytaemnestra, to send his daughter Ipheginaia so she can be married. Instead, he burns her at the stake, the winds come, and he is off to Troy.
As the play opens, it is 10 years later, and no one at Agammemnon's house knows what happened at Troy, or whether he is dead or alive. They are waiting. His wife, Clytemnestra has taken a lover, Aegisthus, Ag's cousin.
The play opens with everyone waiting for a signal from the fleet that went to Troy ...
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The chorus several times refers to an omen that was seen before the war: two eagles swooped down on a pregnant hare and ate it with it's unborn young. The eagles are interpreted as Menelaus and Agammemnon. This is given by the prophet as one of the reasons that Agammemnon must sacrifice his child: to atone for that and for the killing of Troy's children that the omen represents.
If there are other references that you don't understand, bring them here, and we'll work on them together.
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Safe trip, Barbara, I enjoyed that about Solon's reforms, Augustus tried something very similar about the over displays of emotion, the tearing of hair and scratching of face and I think he limited the number of professional mourners (which I have always thought was a great idea). I guess by his time funerals got way out of control.
What a fascinating question on the protagonist and the antagonist, I like what everybody has said here. I would plump for Creon although he's not much of a hero, tragic or not, but now reading Babi's persuasive Antigone I don't know. My whole focus was on him, Spark Notes thinks it's Antigone. I'm not so sure.
The main part in the play to me is not Antigone, it's Creon: she dies, he changes but it's too late. If she is the protagonist what is the climax? Yet Spark Notes says it's she.
This definition, of Greek protagonists, from PBS, seems to point to Creon:
http://www.pbs.org/empires/thegreeks/background/24c.html
Tragedy: Tragedy dealt with the big themes of love, loss, pride, the abuse of power and the fraught relationships between men and gods. Typically the main protagonist of a tragedy commits some terrible crime without realizing how foolish and arrogant he has been. Then, as he slowly realizes his error, the world crumbles around him. The three great playwrights of tragedy were Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides.
BUT might it also point to Antigone?
I think that's the question of the year, I can't stop thinking about it, just a real mind bender. I keep vacillating.
I am behind in reading, but fascinated by Agamemnon ever since we saw him in the Underworld, I can't wait to see what is made of him. I'll be late, I need more time.
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It was a disappointment to hear that the dicussion has technically ended. I had hoped for more time, selfishly I confess. Time constraints have ruled my life for some time and I am seriously behind in my preparations for my son's remarriage next month.
I had wanted and hoped to respond to every interesting post, and there were so many, varied and thoughtful, all. Obviously I fell shorot of my "nobl" intentions, but even a few days, JoanK, are appreciated.
Ginny, I too am not quite finished with Creon, and I will present my thoughts on the matter - as soon as I come back from a mission of mercy : visiting a dear friend, former neighbor, member of our local book group. She lives independently in Quincy, Mass, was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's and will have to be transferred to a different facility.
I will be back.
Traude
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When I went to the Shakespeare Festival i picked up a magazine for the play subscribers. In it I found an article on the Structure of the Greek Drama. (Medea is being shown at the festival). Here is the facts as they may be applied to our material. The Article is by a 19th century German Dramatist, Gustav Freytag.
CLIMAX
Rising Action/ \Falling Action
Exposition/ \Denoument
Using Freytag's pyramid we can overlay the events of the titular characters (in our case Antigone) journeys and see how neatly they coincide . Something happens at the begginning of each play that sets off a chain of events. As the story proceeds ,choices are pondered and complications arise. We soon reach a point of no return. Characters make a fateful decision that will determine how the rest of the story will play out. There is no going back. From that point we watch the characters fortunes crumble or come together until they end either in triumph or in defeat. (Usually triumph is the end to a Comedy and defeat is the end of a Tragedy.)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
May 31-?
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
Agamemnon
Schedule:
May 31-June 5 First half
June 6-11? Second half
Questions for the first half (Up to the point where Agammemnon and Clytemnestra Exit, the chorus speaks, and Clytemnestra re-enters to talk to Cassandra for the first time):
1. How are fire and darkness used in this play?
2. What mood does the watchman set for the play?
3. What do you think of Clytemnestra's technological innovation?
4. What do we learn of the character of Agammemnon?
5. Does Clytemnestra's picture of women in wartime resonate with your experience?
6. Can you tell Clytemnestra's real feelings toward Agammemnon from her welcoming speech to him?
7. Why is Agamemnon's walking on the red carpet so important?
8 . What is the source of the chorus's foreboding?
9. How does Aeschylus compare to Sophocles? So far, which do you prefer?
10. Does the structure of the play seem different from that of Antigone? How?
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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Traude, it's only technically ended. We can still say whatever we like about Antigone, even after Agamemnon gets started on Thursday. Your further comments would be appreciated.
Did you get to see Medea, Jude?
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Sorry to hear about your friend, Traude.
I was going to start reading Agamemnon yesterday evening, but I fell asleep.
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Thank you, JOANK, and be assured I will be bringing you references I don't
understand. :)
GINNY, that definition of tragedy does suggest that Creon was the protagonist.
Why, then, did Sophocles not title the play 'Creon' instead of 'Antigone'? She
had not committed any terrible crime, though she broke the law in an perhaps
foolish and arrogant way.
Very neat, JUDE.
I have what the jacket (and the writer of the introduction) tells me is “George
Thomson’s classic translation of Agamemnon, renowned for its fidelity to the rhythms and richness of the original Greek”. I do find the translation poetic and a pleasure to read, but not so easy to understand. This edition does not have the explanatory notes I found so helpful with Sophocles. I need to see what I can find on-line as a useful reference for the puzzling parts. (And call on JoanK, of course.)
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Pat
I didn't get to see Medea this time around but have seem it in the past.
I saw it in Israel in an old Roman Theatre in Ceasaria.
The theatre , originally built by the Romans has been refurbished but it is still a roofless structure with seats like the original .
ones. The moon overhead and the low sound of the sea in the background.
Fantastic.
I've seen so many Greek plays but hadn't read nary a one till this seniorlearn opportunity. (Sorry, did read Oedipus in H.S. but that was long ago.)
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I hope everyone has found a readable translation. I found Fagles, who was so good for Antigone, to be tough going here. I switched to a library copy by Ted Hughes, which is very readable; I still have to cross-check it with Fagles to see if they're consistent.
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TRAUDE: the discussion isn't closed. We are moving to a different play, but your comments on either are welcome.
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In Antigone, we spent a lot of time talking about who was right and who wrong. Now, as we move to Aesculus' Agammemnon, it's interesting that Fagles says that Agammemnon is not right against wrong, but that Aeschulus shows that "all that exists is just and unjust."(Nietzsche).
How do you feel about that? If there's something in it, we may have to find a different way of looking at the play.
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What is just and what is unjust? Oh, no! Was Nietzsche as Plato fan? Plato's Dialogs had my head spinning in Philosophy class.
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I don't know. I admit, I've avoided Nietzche like the plague. And Plato, too.
Anyway, lets see what we think when we read Ag.
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Richard Seaford, who wrote the introduction to this edition, covered a great more detail
than I’m interested in. He began by discussing all the writers Aeschylus had influenced, at some
length. I skipped most of that. I found the following statement interesting, tho’. “In Athens,
the whole community had gathered in the theatre to rediscover and understand itself in drama
that was not yet subject to the modern divisions between art and religious, between creator,
performance and public, and between words, music and Dance.” He goes on to describe a
milieu in which the earliest tragedians also directed and acted in their plays and the shape of
the theater meant the chorus was in the heart of the audience. They must have felt that they
were right in the middle of the unfolding events.
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The forward in mine says that Agamemnon was written just about the time period that plays switched from being primarily for religious festivals to entertainment in their own right. He claims that this play is the perfect balance between the two. I can tell that it is very different from Antigone. I expect to see more depth to the characters.
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Are the Strophe and the Antistrophe the same as the chorus?
My translation is by an Oxford Scholar, Hugh Lloyd-Jones who is a Regis in Greek. His notes and introduction are sort of overwhelming me. I think it would take a full years course to really grasp the information he is putting forth. On each page there is a bit of dialogue and more than half the page devoted to explanation. I guess he expects us to know what Strophe are since he fails to explain these words.
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It'sa interesting to me to see how much our English literature owes to these classic Greek plays. Shakespeare, particularly. the structure that (was it fry?) posted above for Greek plays is exactly what we were taught Shakespeare used. And the guard that brings Antigone in is exacly like a minor humorous character in Shakespeare.
We broke Antigone at the climax, when Creon orders Antigone taken away. I broke Agammemnon at almost exactly the same place (but after the chorus' ode, instead of before). But it doesn't seem that we've reached the climax yet. Let's see where we think the climax is.
Has anyone read the play yet?
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JUDE: please skip the intro, and just read the play. Everything you need to know is in the background or things we've discussed about Antigone.
I love the beginning of this play, when the watchman is standing alone in the dark, looking for light. It's my favorite part.
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Has anyone read the play yet?
I'm only a few pages into it so far, at the first "Standing song"
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Are the Strophe and the Antistrophe the same as the chorus?
Without checking details in my notes: What the chorus sings seems to be also called the chorus. It is divided into a strophe and an antistrophe, sort of like long stanzas, and the chorus (the people) dance one way during the strophe and the other way during the antistrophe. There might be more than one strophe-antistrophe pair. (In addition, the song-chorus sometimes concludes with an epode, which is in a different meter.
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At first I found this play very difficult to read, the language (Fagles) was so elaborate, and the descriptions so roundabout. I switched to Hughes, and found the going easier. But then I decided that Hughes wasn't accurate, and going back to Fagles discovered that now I could read it more easily. I don't know if this was practice, getting into the right mindset, or what, but it's smoother going now. I also notice that the online version in the link in the heading, while not very poetic, has very clear wording.
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I have the same problem with Richard Seaford,JUDE. I wondered if his introduction
was a summary of a course on Aeschylus, or if he was hoping to be hired to give one. ;)
The chorus' odes seem much longer in "Agamemnon". (Yes, I've started reading it.)
I found myself wishing Aeschylus would get on with the story during the long ode
praising Zeus.)
Thanks, PAT. When I get puzzled with the Seaford version, I'll see what the online
version says.
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I love the beginning of this play, when the watchman is standing alone in the dark, looking for light. It's my favorite part.
It's really good theater, isn't it. The weary, bored watchman, no hope left. Suddenly he sees a light. He can hardly believe it at first, then he's overjoyed. He'll celebrate! Then the realization that he knows things he won't dare tell the king, that the whole city will have to keep quiet about.
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The chorus' odes seem much longer in "Agamemnon". (Yes, I've started reading it.)
I found myself wishing Aeschylus would get on with the story during the long ode
praising Zeus.)
Yes, there seem to be more long choruses in this one, playing a bigger part in the story. That ode to Zeus is much admired, as is the ode to mankind in Antigone, and in both cases I don't quite see what all the fuss is about.
Another difference from Antigone: since Sophocles invented the third actor, presumably here there are only ever two characters (not counting the chorus) on stage at any one time. I'd like to know, but am too lazy to work it out, whether a character was always played by the same actor. It wouldn't have to be, since masks were worn.
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Has anyone found the meaning of Strophe, Antistrophe and now Epode?
These aren't words used in senrences but titles before someone speaks,.
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Here's what Ginny dug up. My translations don't have them marked; I wish they did. It boils down to being a structural or poetic thing, rather than a meaning thing, and the metric difference doesn't carry over in translation.
Babi, according to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature,
The strophe (meaning turn) in Greek lyric poetry and Latin imitation is a stanza. It was said to have derived its name from the performance of choral lyric, in which a stanza or strophe was sung as the chorus proceed in its dance in one direction, followed by a second stanza, the antistrophe, sung when the chorus turned and reversed its dance in the opposite direction. "Astrophic" composition describes extended lyric passages not written in stanza form.
In a Triad in a Greek lyric poem, a group of three stanzas, of which the first two, called strophē and antistrophē are symmetrical, i.e., correspond in metre, but the third, called the epode, has a different though related metrical form. If the poem consists of more than one triad the epodes, at least in Pindar, correspond with one another, as do all the strophes and antistrophes. This form of composition... broke the monotony of a long series of similar stanzas....
It is generally believed that lyric poetry written in triadic form was sung and danced by a chorus, whereas monodic lyric was usually sung by an individual...
That was a good question! Does this help at all?
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In Antigone, I thought I could sometimes figure out the strophes and antistrophes, but I can't do that here, where the sections of the chorus are so long.
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This site is a hoot. I came on it by accident when I was looking for something else--the locations of the bonfires. It's written for teenagers, in a smart-alecky slangy style, but it's an excellent, detailed summary.
I have mixed emotions about it. I've been slaving over this play for a week, and I feel I've finally mastered it and made it my own. But here it is, handed to me on a platter, including all the important themes I either figured out or got from all the introductions I've read. I'm glad I didn't read it first. So I don't know if I recommend reading much of it or not; I guess I would at least recommend not reading ahead of what you've read in the original.
And I promise that my comments will be what I'd already worked out, unless I say otherwise.
http://www.shmoop.com/agamemnon/detailed-summary.html (http://www.shmoop.com/agamemnon/detailed-summary.html)
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Pat
Thanks so much for your ecxplanatoion of the words that had me stymied.
I also enjoyed the shmoop site.
Made the whole story less difficult. Great background notes.
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Alas, my interpretation introduces words entirely new to me. After the watchman, we have
a long recital by 'parodos'. ??? Then we have the chorus, which divides their parts into something called a 'stasimon' ???...very long...with a coda by 'chorus'. The first stasimon contained six strophe/antistrophes.
Please enlighten me. :-\
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The parodos is two things. It's the physical area where the chorus enters, and it's what the chorus sings as it comes in. A stasimon is a poetic interval, sung by the chorus, consisting of several strophe/antistrophe sets, with or without epodes, and probably an epode at the end. I'm guessing the coda is the epode. So you have:
Parodos
Stasimon
strophe/antistrophe
optional epode
strophe/antistrophe
optional epode
strophe/antistrophe
optional epode
All of this is sung by the chorus.
After this opening, you would have a series of episodes, in which characters interact, separated by more stasimons. So the play as a whole is:
Prologue (in this case, the watchman's speech)
Parodos
Stasimon (I think there isn't always a separate stasimon here)
Episode
Stasimon
Episode
Stasimon
etc, etc
Episode
Exodos (the last gasp of the chorus as they go out.
Here's a more official description:
http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/Classes/US210/Greek-play.html (http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~mclennan/Classes/US210/Greek-play.html)
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Babi, if you have the time, will you do me a favor, and give me the first sentence (or part, if it's long) of your parodos, stasimon, and coda.
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Here are some lines that seem appropriate to our times, and all times.
lines 373-384
And the penalty for daring what may not be dared has been revealed
to the descendants of those whose pride is greater than is right,
when their house abounds in wealth to excess,
beyond what is best. May it be granted me
to have good sense, so that the gods
are content to leave me free from harm!
For there is no defense
for a man who in the surfeit of his wealth
has kicked the great altar
of justice out of sight.
This reminds me of the never ending parade of crooked politicians from Grecian times to today.
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It's interesting to compare translations. Here's Fagles:
The sky-stroke of god!-it is all Troy's to tell,
but even I can trace it to its cause:
god does as god decrees.
And still some say
that heaven would never stoop to punish men
who trample the lovely grace of things
untouchable. How wrong they are!
A curse burns bright on crime-
full-blown, the father's crimes will blossom,
burst into the son's.
Let there be less suffering...
give us the sense to live on what we need.
Bastions of wealth
are no defence for the man
who treads the grand altar of Justice
down and out of sight
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And look what Hughes does:
So heaven strikes.
Zeus is patient--
His law is obscure,
roundabout, but
None can escape it.
Let nobody tell you
Heaven ignores
The desecrator
who mocks and defiles
The holy things--
For they are wrong.
Everywhere
The conceited man
With his lofty scheme
Ruins himself
And everybody near him.
The house where wealth
Cracks the foundations
With its sheer weight
Is a prison
Whose owner dies
In solitary.
What is enough?
Who knows? Once
A man in the stupor
Of wealth and pride
Has broken heaven's law
And kicked over
The altar of justice
It is too late.
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I don't trust Hughes.
But to get back to your point, Jude, modern politicians, Greek and otherwise, could use an obligatory course in Greek drama.
I wonder how crooked politics was in Athens at that time?
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Agammemnon was the first greek play I read. And the opening scene bowled me over: a man standing, 2000 years ago, in the dark, waiting for light.
And that, to me, is what this play is about: us, suffering, looking for light, trying to understand why we suffer. And in suffering and trying to understand, always creating more suffering.
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This isn't Antigone. Remember Antigone said "I bind with love, not with hate: it is my nature." There's no binding with love here in Agamemmnon, it's always the women who bring the suffering: first Helen, who "causes" the Trojan war (never mind that that's nonsense: it's the men who decide to fight a war for such a silly reason -- but I'm giving the playright's view here), then the godess Artemis who demands a sacrifice, then Cassandra with her prophesies of doom, then Clytemnestra.
See if you agree with me.
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Now for a bit of fun..
The translator of my book suggests if we are not satisfied with his REALLY long intro and explanations on each page we may want to read a translation by Edward Frankel in three volumes with a literal translation.
Anyone interested?
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I was tickled to see that Clytemnestra was able to get early news of the fall of Troy via flames from signal towers strategically placed to the the word out. If I read correctly, it sounds as if she was not entirely believed until the Harald arrived, alive and in person, to announce the news.
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If I read correctly, it sounds as if she was not entirely believed until the Harald arrived, alive and in person, to announce the news.
Right. Women get carried away; you can't trust anything they say.
"--Just like a woman
to fill with thanks before the truth is clear.
--So gullible. Their stories spread like wildfire,
they fly fast and die faster;
rumours voiced by women come to nothing."
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Thanks, PAT. That's exactly what I needed to know. As you requested, here are
the first lines as per George Thomson.
PARADOS: "Ten years is it since that plaintiff-at-arms
In the suit against Priam,
Menelaus, with lord Agamemnon his peer....."
STASIMON: "Strong am I yet to declare that sign which sped from the palace
Men in the fulness of power...."
CODA: (not identified as such, but spoken after Clytemnestra appears on-stage)
"All honour, Clytemnestra, unto thee!"
Alas, JUDE, too true! Thomson's translation is also different from those
already posted, but that's probably enough versions of those lines. Let me know
if anyone wants to read what Thomson writes; I do think it is good.
I think I would exempt Cassandra from the list of women who bring the suffering.
She only tried to warn Troy of the danger, and the men dismissed her as mad.
FRYBABE & PAT, don't miss the hypocrisy, either. When Clytemnestra first announced the news, chorus said, "Woman,your gracious words are like a man’s. Most wise in judgment.” Uh-huh. So, a woman’s words are generally supposed to be lacking in judgment, I gather. The polite words to her are quite
different from the opinions expressed among themselves.
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Amusing, Babi--there are a lot of little digs like that against women. Everyone in the play seems very conscious of their notions of what women are like and how they should behave.
Yeah, Jude, just what I need--three more tomes. Maybe I'll have time tonight after I clean up the kitchen. ;)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
May 31-?
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
Agamemnon
Schedule:
May 31-June 5 First half
June 6-11? Second half
Questions for the first half (Up to the point where Agammemnon and Clytemnestra Exit, the chorus speaks, and Clytemnestra re-enters to talk to Cassandra for the first time):
1. How are fire and darkness used in this play?
2. What mood does the watchman set for the play?
3. What do you think of Clytemnestra's technological innovation?
4. What do we learn of the character of Agammemnon?
5. Does Clytemnestra's picture of women in wartime resonate with your experience?
6. Can you tell Clytemnestra's real feelings toward Agammemnon from her welcoming speech to him?
7. Why is Agamemnon's walking on the red carpet so important?
8 . What is the source of the chorus's foreboding?
9. How does Aeschylus compare to Sophocles? So far, which do you prefer?
10. Does the structure of the play seem different from that of Antigone? How?
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Babi
I also read and reread the words of the chorus to Clytemnestra re "womens words".
This brought up the question wether there was an official policy of the Greeks towards women and their place in society or it was just accepted that women were an inferior breed.
It wasn't till the Crimean war that women were allowed on the battlefield.(Florence Nightingale) Women got the vote only in the 20th century and started to run for political office some years later.
Although Royalty was an exception the fate of most women up till modern times was parallel to the lives of Greek women .
So Is this a continuum of history or are we looking for shades of life that are particular to Greek women?
The two women we have read about till now are from the Royalty and thus much more priviliged than the ordinary female citizen.
Were women in Greece considered citizens or were they known as something else?
Sorry if my ignorance is being exposed.
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JUDE: "So Is this a continuum of history or are we looking for shades of life that are particular to Greek women?"
We're doing whatever we want to do: it's our discussion.
I was spurred on by a question that Virginia Woolf asked: why do periods like ancient Greece (and Shakespeare's England) where women's role is so oppressed, produce so much literature with strong women characters?
I believe that women were not citizens. They certainly could not vote. But it may be that women related to citizens had certain rights that others didn't. I don't know what the property and divorce laws were.
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This seems to be a time when there's a lot about the greeks on TV. This morning, on local college TV, a prof was talking about greek drama: the role of masks and the role of the chorus. In addition to the chorus' roles we already mentioned, he said that Greek plays were about social problems, so it was good to have the citizens (audience members) and their views represented on stage.
The Romans, whose drama didn't deal with social problems, or the views of the citizens, eliminated the chorus.
The prof also pointed out that Greek plays always glorified the gods, while Roman plays glorified the emporor. Dionysis, the greek version of Bachus, was also the god of actors, and plays were presented in his homor -- hence the ode to him in Antigone. I'm not sure why all the praises go to Zeus in this play?
He showed a short scene from Oedipus Rex with the characters in masks. It really looks strange to a Westerner.
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The other greek program I saw was "In search of the greek gods", an episode in a travel show "Adventures with Purpose". The traveller visited places in Greece (Athens. Olympia, the site of the Olympics, Delphi, Ithaca) with a Greek scholar who talked about the relevant Greek god or goddess. her theme was that the Greeks made the gods human: each god or goddess represnting an aspect of our own humanity, so that we can celebrate them within ourselves, not just "out there".
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Interesting, JOAN. That has some similarities to the Hindu perception of gods. Each of the
numberous 'gods' actually represents some aspect of GOD, who is far too complex for the
human mind to grasp. These representatives allow people to worship these various aspects as
they wish, just as the fourfold path people to choose what best fits their own needs and
personality.
In Greece, We can see that each city/peoples are under the special protection of one of the gods. While the Greeks petition the help of their patron, they must be wary and respectful of the
god/goddess of the Trojans. “And if they honor the presiding Gods and altars of the plundered territory, then those despoilers shall not be despoiled. Only let no desire afflict the host to lay rapacious hands on sanctities; the last lap of the race is still to run.”
I find it so odd that the protector god of one city can be appeased for the destruction of his/her
city, so long as the attackers are respectful and honor them. Not only that, but why can one
god insist on a human sacrifice and another god equally insist that the person responsible be
punished for it? Oh, yeah, right! The Greeks created their gods in their own image. :(
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If I remember correctly, some of the Greeks slipped up and despoiled some of the Trojan temples, which is why they had so much trouble getting back home.
It's pretty hopeless if you get caught in the crossfire of the gods' squabbles. Nothing you do will save you. One of my introductions calls this the "tragic double bind".
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Where is everyone in the reading? Have you read Agamemnon's speech yet?
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Athenian dramatists:
AESCHYLUS SOPHOCLES EURIPEDES
525-456 497-405 485-406
Total productions 90 Total 125 Total 92
Most of the plays were created between the defeat of the Persians in 472 and the defeat of Athens by Sparta in 404BC.
They were produced for audiences in Athens and Attica.This small district is circumscribed by the sea and the mountains.
Hugh Lloyd -Jones:"These are plays with portrayals ofthe human dilemma which forswear the luxury of moral confidenceand assured solutions. Here are sufferings disproportionate to the original error, characters caught and trapped in situations which are too much for them and for which they are only partially responsible. Here are pity and terror treated as facts of life with which one must come to terms. here finally is defiance combined with a fatalism which accepts the tragic scene even at the moment of its repudiation. The watchword we listen to today is not decorum but danger."
I don't know if this material will help others but it has given me a historic framework with which to understand and judge the characters and the action. Now I can go back and continue my reading of the play which I stopped while searching for this frame of reference in order to judge the material and react to it.
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jUDE: that's great!
"Here are pity and terror treated as facts of life with which one must come to terms."
Yes. The old translation of Ag that I read decades ago had the watchman saying "man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward".
I remembered that all these years, assuming it was Aeschulis's simile. It's not: it's from the bible, but it fits this play.
Again, I think the main themes of this play are trying to come to terms with SUFFERING, and trying to come to a sense of JUSTICE in what seems to be such an unjust world. Do you all agree?
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But who here IS the Just? I can't figure that one out! Not too many to pick from among the major characters. There seem to me to be so few characters! That, I guess is because as PatH reminds us that Sophocles invented the 3rd character. I kept thinking there WERE three, he did a good job there. Fooled me, I just caught that in rereading everybody's posts this morning.
So "Justice" is a concept here, too, so strong it's almost a character.
Or is it those understood as part of the background and history who are the "Just?"
I guess I'm looking for "Justice" and "the Just" here as comparison..
I've finally got a copy, it's the Lattimore. I don't see that anybody else has Lattimore or have I not read closely enough?
I like Lattimore, I have heard a great deal about him from famous translators who seem to use him as a base, just like he uses Symth's text and then adds his own interpretations, and his intro is wonderful, and now I know the answer to one of the questions in the heading about the purple (he has it as purple) carpet/ robe Agamemnon walked on.
I stopped at line 855 since that's half of 1676 (or so) lines, but I can go further, where I stopped Clytemnestra comes forward to speak.
So what strikes me initially?
I really got a thrill right after reading about the beacon lighting as described by Clytemnestra from 290 on, when Queen Elizabeth lit the first of a string of beacons which will show up all over, including one in Hadrian's Wall, sort of made it come alive.
There seems to be lots of symbolism here on light and darkness, the watchman waiting for the light as you've said, the beacons, I just loved that.
9. How does Aeschylus compare to Sophocles? So far, which do you prefer?
So far I like Aeschylus very much. He's not getting into the characters in depth here, no inward motivation etc., (we could use some with the idea of Iphigenia) and he's sticking to the tradition of lyric tragedy of his time, he seems very straightforward. Of course we have the background to thank for that I guess both here and in the Intro, and in PatH's hilarious find, I loved that.
And another Homecoming, one of the main themes of the Odyssey.
I'm seeing a lot of irony and contradiction. Clytemnestra says she is glad to see Agamemnon, when we know she isn't. He's brought along a girl friend, Cassandra, who herself is sort of famous, that's nice for "faithful wifey" at home. He's killed Clytemnestra's (and his) daughter when he really didn't have to, and she's remarried. On the surface it looks fine. It's not.
Paris is getting the heck beat out of him for taking Helen away when she admitted that she left on her own free will leaving her children, so Aeschylus is not going verbatim from Homer but plowing his own path. And again quite a difference in what is said outright especially by the "Kings Men" Chorus and what actually is true.
Apparently this is one of three plays called the Oresteia, I never heard of the next two, but am glad to be reading this.
The Herald says Agamemnon has come
"bearing light in gloom
to you and to all that are assembled here." in line 523.
It sounds to me as if he's full of himself, just as he has been in the Iliad and the Odyssey, to his detriment.
Clytemnestra says "and may he find a wife within his house as true
as on the day he left her..." 686 Wow, she's the antithesis of "true."
So they are saying one thing while doing another, is this the kind of "justice" they keep talking about? Like here:
"And Righteousness is a shining in
the smoke of mean houses.
Her blessing is on the just man.
From high halls started with gold by reeking hands
she turns back
with eyes that glance away to the simple in heart." (777)
So lots on the just and the problems of Pride from the Chorus in reference to Troy (Ilium) but I guess ironically foreshadowing maybe the plot here.
Finally Lattimore says (I'm quoting this in order to say something useful to the discussion. hahahaa) one difference between Aeschylus and Sophocles (thank you Joan K for those dates): "Tragedy, for us, begins with Aeschylus." We don't know his predecessors enough, (Thespis, Pratinas, Choerilus and Phrynichus).
He says "Sophocles turned tragedy inward upon the principal actors, and drama becomes drama of characters. His plays may open with public scenes, but, as they progress, the interest focuses hard on the hero. Agamemnon is a play about the Trojan War, but Antigone is not a play about the Theban War, though that lies in the background.
In Sophocles the choruses are commentaries on the action, not part of the larger action, and their imagery is functional to the choruses themselves but not to the tragedy as a whole."
So the Conquering Hero has come home, to lots of admonitions about the just and the prideful, this can't end well.... :) That's a great Hugh Lloyd- Jones quote, Jude!
I like this play.
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Considering the ideas about women prevalent in those times, I can see why the
idea of Helen playing a role in this is ignored. Women were weak-minded and unable to
stand up to the importunities of a man. Paris is entirely to blame.
The chorus, in strophe 3, tells us that the surviving warriors have had a major change
of heart since they set sail so long ago. Then, they were perfectly willing that an innocent
child should be sacrificed, so that they could set sail to war. Now, after 10 years of war
and the loss of many friends, there are bitter words. “ ‘And he, who died a noble death----
All to avenge another man’s wife.’ It is muttered in a whisper, and it spreads with growling
envy of the sons of Atreus”.
What do the rest of you think of the lines:
“Watchful are the Gods of all
Hands with slaughter stained. The black
Furies wait, and when a man
Has grown by luck, not justice, great,
With sudden overturn of chance
They wear him to a shade, and, cast
Down to perdition, who shall save him?”
This seems to be suggesting that Agamemnon attained his greatness through sheer luck,
not because he earned or deserved it. I found nothing in his [mythological] history to explain
this.
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Hi, Ginny. It's good to see you in here, and I'm glad you're enjoying the play. Don't think anyone else has Lattimore. He should be good. Cathy read his Iliad in college, so I have that, but not anything else of his.
People in the play seem concerned with all aspects of justice--what it is, how it works out in life, and whether their own actions are just. The first thing Agamemnon says when he enters is that his actions in the war have been just, and that the gods were acting justly when they determined Troy should be destroyed. In the later plays, justice evolves and changes.
Thanks for reminding me how full of himself Agamemnon was in the Iliad. I wasn't thinking of that.
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Babi, the passages you quoted are powerful and bitter--the soldiers coming home as handfuls of ashes in urns, the growing resentment of the people.
The people's voice is heavy with hatred,
now the curses of the people must be paid,
and now I wait, I listen...
there--there is something breathing
under the night's shroud. God takes aim
at the ones who murder many;
the swarthy Furies stalk the man
gone rich beyond all rights--with a twist
of fortune grind him down, dissolve him
into the blurring dead--there is no help.
The reach for power can recoil,
the bolt of god can strike you at a glance.
I agree with you that, whatever we might think of his choices, Agamemnon did what he did by ability, not luck. It makes more sense if we interpret the lines as meaning someone who doesn't deserve his success because he did things wrongly "has grown by luck, not justice, great".
By the way, anyone who reads the remaining two plays will meet the Furies in person, and it's not a pretty sight.
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GINNY: it was JUDE, not me, that brought us the dates.
These plays have become so influential in our literature, that it is hard for me to remember that we are reading the earliest (that we have) development of drama in the West. We don't know what easrlier plays that didn't survive they were leaning on, but the whole development of Western theater starts here, with these plays that we are reading. They are embedded deep in our literature.
I was very struck by this in Ginny's quote: ""Sophocles turned tragedy inward upon the principal actors, and drama becomes drama of characters. His plays may open with public scenes, but, as they progress, the interest focuses hard on the hero. Agamemnon is a play about the Trojan War, but Antigone is not a play about the Theban War, though that lies in the background."
Agammemnon is a play about the Trojan war. Aesculus took a simple story of infidelity and murder frrom Homer and fleshed it out to ask questions about justice and the human condition.
Where is justice here?
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GINNY: we stop when Clytemnestra starts talking to Cassandra. She has already gone into the palace with Ag and comes back out. is that where you are? It's a little bit past halfway.
Where are the rest of you? Do you all like Sophicles better?
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Here's a bunch of trivia.
To add to Jude's table of dates:
Aeschylus: 525-456 the Oresteia: 458
Sophocles: 497-405 Antigone: 441
In addition to being a playwright, Aeschylus fought both at Marathon and Salamis, the big battles of his time.
According to my kooky website, once Sophocles started using a third actor, Aeschylus thought it was a good idea, and would do so too, but very sparingly and for very dramatic moments. That explains something that puzzled me. When Agamemnon arrives in his chariot, Cassandra is in it too. That's a third actor. But she doesn't speak while Clytemnestra and Ag are both still on stage, so I assumed that she wasn't really in the chariot until an actor slipped back in.
The Oresteia is the only complete trilogy we have from this time. Antigone is grouped with two other plays that tell other parts of the story, but they weren't written at the same time or performed together.
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JoanK, I am a little past your marker. I am in the middle of Cassandra's speech/prophecy bit.
PatH, I will have to read Agamemnon's arrival again. I thought my translation (Murray) said that she was in the chariot just behind his.
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These two lines struck a chord with me, for some reason. The herald says, “Little I thought
here in this Argive earth to die and in dear hands be laid to rest.” It’s something I imagine
every soldier who finds himself in a foreign war must feel. As with the watchman, we are
treated to a bit on insight into the thoughts and feelings of the minor characters. Most of us,
I imagine, can better relate to them.
I also could relate to the lines “Old age is ever young enough to learn.” We’re proof of
that, aren’t we?
Then, Clytemnestra’s last words before going back into the palace: “Delight from other
men and ill-report Are strange to me, as strange as tempered steel.” Considering that we
know she is no stranger to ‘delight from other men’, the reference to the ‘tempered steel’
is definitely ominous.
I believe Clytemnestra’s reappearance just before the words commencing in line 750 are
important to the drama of the play. It is at that point that the chorus at begins to speak of a
‘tale of old time’ that includes the lines: “It is only deeds unholy that increase, fruitful in in offspring of the same breed as its fathers.” We hear the echo of that in Shakespeare:
“The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones.“ The stage is being set for Clytemnestra’s revenge on Agamemnon for his ‘unholy deed’.
This drama is highlighting another old question. Is vengeance truly justice? Aeschylus
speaks of Justice leading “to the end appointed”. But vengeance begets vengeance, which leads to further vengeance. We have today entire nations still warring, after centuries, in vengeance upon one another. This Greek notion of justice appears to be centered on the
punishment of vengeful gods. Again, do you suppose, the customs of a people made a feature
of their gods?
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The herald's return home is touching. Notice what the chorus says then; that it would be good to die now, with a hint of "before things get worse".
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This drama is highlighting another old question. Is vengeance truly justice? Aeschylus
speaks of Justice leading “to the end appointed”. But vengeance begets vengeance, which leads to further vengeance.
I think you've put your finger on a crucial point of the play. It's explored here, but we don't get a final answer yet.
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Vengeance is not Justice in my opinion.
It is private retribution for a real or imagined offense.
Satisfying a private need is helpful to the person who wishes to get "payback" for suffering of some type.
No one knows how that ac of vengeance will end or reverberate in the future.
Because of this deep primitive need to return blow for blow, civilization has made courts of law and lawyers and judges etc.
Sometimes the need for vengeance is so deep that the person doesn't think of the consequences or , at the moment, care.
This need for vengence is probably the most popular theme of books, plays, and movies.
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JUDES "This drama is highlighting another old question. Is vengeance truly justice? Aeschylus
speaks of Justice leading “to the end appointed”. But vengeance begets vengeance, which leads to further vengeance.
And "Because of this deep primitive need to return blow for blow, civilization has made courts of law and lawyers and judges etc."
You have hit on just the points I've been thinking of. In reading "The Story of Civilization", one point Durant makes is that civilizations go through stages: first people use private justice, but as Jude points out, that leads to an endless cycle. Then later societies realize this and institute courts and laws to settle the matter once and for all.
I haven't read the rest of this trilogy yet, but I think that's where it's going: toward the rule of law.
My TV station is airing a version of The Hatfields and MaCoys later. Very relevant.
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Aesculus says than man learns by suffering. Do you agree? This could almost be the motto for Sophocles later plays: Oedipus, Creon, and perhaps Antigone all learn by making mistakes and suffering for them.
Does this fit with your own experience (less violently and dramatically, I hope)?
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Dear Bookies
I am getting a houseful of guests (In-laws from Vermont) tomorrow. They are staying through Sunday night. I'll be back with you Monday or Tuesday.
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I agree with you, JUDE, as I'm sure most of us moderns would. To the ancient
Greeks, however, it appears to be an ordnance of the gods. They were a vengeful
lot. In fact, in many cases, it appeared that such retribution was commanded.
Oedipus, Creon, and perhaps Antigone all learn by making mistakes and suffering
for them.
JOAN, your statement caught my attention and I had to wonder. Where
is the benefit of 'learning from your mistakes' if we die because of them? We
can never apply what we've learned or pass it on to others. :-\
I'm sure y'all noticed... when the chorus wants to hear more details of the storm, the herald protests that it is not fitting to ’mar a day of praise with voice of evil tidings’, but after suitable protest proceeds to do so anyway.
Do the rest of you find Agamemnon’s response to Clytemnestra’s greeting as
arrogant and belittling as I did?
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Do the rest of you find Agamemnon’s response to Clytemnestra’s greeting as
arrogant and belittling as I did?
Yes, Babi, I did. You would think that after ten years he would expect his wife to give him an emotional welcome and thanksgiving for his safe return. I got the impression that he was saying that it was unseemly for a woman to show her emotions in public (unless, of course, it was in mourning for the dead). It seems a lot like, "Get a hold of yourself; you are making a public spectacle of yourself." What a jerk!
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Come to think of it, he acts almost as if he knows what she is planning. He speaks to the chorus, then looks at Clytemnestra and says
"Victory, you have sped my way before,
now speed me to the last."
Nothing more, until after her speech (I wonder if it was actually out of line, as he says) when he says it's too long and he would prize praise if it came from others. He's right to try to avoid the carpet, though; that's tempting fate.
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Oh, and he ends up with "by the way, this is my new mistress. Take good care of her."
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Are we ready to move on? We can still put in anything we have left to say about the first half, though.
Judy, thanks for letting us know you'll be tied up. You can catch us up later.
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Cassandra's prophecy is sort of tough going. She sees the past as well as the future, and when she comes to Agamemnon's palace she is overwhelmed with the feeling of the whole sorry, bloody past of the house of Atreus as well as what she sees is about to happen. And she shifts back and forth in time as she tells it all.
Here's the background. The house of Atreus had long been accursed because of the vile behavior of their ancestor Tantalus. (He killed his own son and served him as a sacrifice to the gods in a deliberate act of impiety.) Atreus, father of Agamemnon, had a brother Thyestes. Thyestes seduced Atreus' wife. As revenge, Atreus murdered Thyestes' sons, invited Thyestes to a feast, and served him bits of his children in the stew. Thyestes didn't manage to take revenge on his brother, who was king, but his surviving son was Aegisthus (the one now co-habiting with Clytemnestra), who thus has a grudge against Atreus' children.
Atreus' sons were Agamemnon and Menelaus.
So there is a long family history of wrongs and revenge, curses and bad behavior.
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Despite the title, Agamemnon has the briefest role in this play. Cassandra and Clytemnestra
are the most prominent speakers, by far.
Cassandra’s prophetic voice was still with her. I had to smile when I read the lines from
Chorus: “When did a prophet’s voice issue in happiness? “ I remembered a time during a church study, when people were saying how wonderful it would be if a true prophet came and spoke to us. My comment was “Be careful what you wish for.” Then I went on to ask them to
think of the occasions when a prophet arose in Israel. It was always when the people were
wandering off track and there were problems all through the land. Then a prophet would
come to give them h___! The prophets could have promises of good as well, but always contingent on the people repenting and returning to the laws of their faith. Prophets were not sent to tell everyone how great they were doing. :-X
I am puzzled that the chorus found Cassandra’s predictions so hard to understand. I don’t
see how she could have been much clearer short of naming the culprit. ‘Mate of his bed and
board, she is a snare of slaughter” And, “See how the bull is captured. She wraps him in the
robe, the horned trap, then strikes.” What I did not understand was why, out of all the
horrors Cassandra describes, she seems so offended by the fact that a woman has murdered a man! “So dead to shame!”
Clytemnestra defends her action strongly. “For if due offerings were his to drink, then those
were justly his, and more than just. With bitter tears he filled the household bowl, now he
himself has drained it and is gone.”
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I am puzzled that the chorus found Cassandra’s predictions so hard to understand. I don’t
see how she could have been much clearer short of naming the culprit.
They can't believe a woman could or would do such a thing.
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Agamemnon's greeting to Clytemnestra is even more snippy in the plain language of the online translation:
Daughter of Leda, guardian of my home, your speech was, like my absence, far too long. Such praise as I deserve should come from others. Then it is worthwhile.
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Whatta guy!
If you were Clytemnestra, what would you have done?
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'Willful disbelief', I believe that's called, PAT. It's either that, or perhaps
just Cassandra's curse. No one believes her warnings, no matter how accurate she
turns out to be.
What would I do if I were Clytemnestra, JOAN? I think I would smile inwardly, thinking of
how much pleasure it was going to be to kill the arrogant ....well, I won't say that. :-X ;)
The illogic in ‘the will of the gods” confronts me once again. If Zeus “causeth all and worketh
all; for what without his will befalleth mortals, and what here was not sent from heaven?”So, if all this has been the will of Zeus, why is Agamemnon’s son charged with the responsibility of killing his mother in vengeance for his father? Is this not flouting the will of the gods?
But then, why am I surprised? Humanity continues to be able to construe the tenets of their
faith to suit themselves, sadly.
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I have been reading your posts, altho not contributing i find it very interesting.
Babi asked about the status of women a while back, i haven't really read about Greek culture since i taught a Humanities course in the 60s, but i remembered that women lived in a separate world from men, as was true in almost every culture. They were treated as property and like children in many cases, not allowed into the public sphere. The women in the literature seem to be "living" in a slightly better situation. I knew, what w/ the interest in women's history since the 60s that there must be newer information, so i finally looked for some sites today.
You may find this material interesting. The first is from Pace University, but is not from a professor of ancient history, but it appears to be accurate. I know nothing about the authors of the other two sites, but again the info appears to be reasonable.
http://webpage.pace.edu/nreagin/F2004WS267/AnnaCho/finalHISTORY.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/ancientchix/
http://www.womenintheancientworld.com/greece.htm
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Here is a trustworthy site and it has basically the same information! But w/ some nice pictures.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/wmna/hd_wmna.htm
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THAT'S GREAT! Thanks for doing that research for us. Here are some of my reactions.
Of the sites above, I found this the most interesting, because it talks a little about class differences.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/ancientchix/
Apparently, upper class women were almost completely confined to the home, only allowed to leave it in limited ways. But the site above says that women in poorer households worked alongside the men in stalls, etc. in society. Such work was not respected: only in the role of housewife were women respected. (I think of Odysseus' wife, sitting and weaving for 20 years, waiting for him to return).
The exception was that women had important roles in many ceremonies (such as religious ceremonies and funerals).
While respectable women were confined to the home, prostitutes and courtisans were not. The latter were called the hetaerae class. They were more educated and provided intellectual companionship as well as sexual services to men, and accompanied them to social gatherings.
Several of the sites note the contrast between the status of women in the society and the status and reverence of the female goddesses, such as Athena, Artemis etc. Dozens of denigrating remarks about women are quoted from Greek literature (such as we've already seen), but female goddesses were worshipped and held in great respect.
Of course in Christian literature, we have the contrast between the reverance of the Virgin Mary and many anti-women sentiments uttered by revered figures.
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Interesting sites, JEAN. They do confirm the impressions I've gotten from the
two dramas we've read so far. We can see an example of the role of women in religious
rites in Clytemnestras immediate lighting of the altar fires on receiving news of the Greek
victory.
As this portion of the trilogy draws to a close, we are finally introduced to Aegisthus.
Ugh! Aegisthus is a really nasty character. I don’t know how Clytemnestra could stand
him. And in the honored Greek tradition, he rehearses the wrongs done by Agamemnon’s
father, as “the sin for which this man lies here”. There is no justice in murdering the son
for the sins of the father; that’s just blood-for-blood vengeance.
Then he goes on to rant about how he is going to rule the country from now on...with
arrogance and tyranny! Clytemnestra was at least able to dissuade him from commencing
his reign with the punishment of the chorus, just to show everyone who was boss.
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Petty and vengeful. The men don't come off well in this play.
What about Clytemnestra? is she going to try to heal Argos? She says
"Fathers of Argos, turn for home before you act
and suffer for it. What we did was destiny.
If we could end the suffering, how we would rejoice."
And her last lines:
"...You and I have the power now.
We will set the house in order once and for all."
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
May 31-June 15
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
June 16-?
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
Iphigenia in Verse (http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/iph_taur.html)
Iphigenia in Prose (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=eur.+it+1)
Iphigenia
Schedule:
June 16-? First half--until the point where Orestes and Plyades are talking about Orestes' being sacrificed.
Orestes, knowing he's going to die, says "the Oracle of Phoebus is useless to me now, for look the lady comes."
Then Iphegenia and the chorus return
Questions:
1. How does Euripides style differ from that of Sophocles and Aeschylus? What other ways is he different?
2. Why does Ipheginia think that Orestes is dead? What do you think her dream meant?
3. Is there a difference in the attitudes toward the gods and omens in this play as against the earlier ones we've read? If so, what indications do you see of it?
4. How do you think all these Greek slave women got there?
5. Are there traces of a sense of humor here? Was there any humor in the earlier plays? This play is neither a tragedy nor a comedy. Are there other such plays in the Greek repertoire?
6. How is the fact that Iphigenia takes the lead in rescuing them fitted into traditional women's roles? In general, what are some of the ways the playwrights we read manage to present strong women and still maintain stereotypical views of women?
7. It took two goddesses and one human woman (herself) to save Ipheginia, not to mention two heroes and a ship. Could you have done it more economically?
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Clytemnestra may be self-deceived. Now that Aegisthus is in charge, he sounds
like the type that will be as arrogant toward her as he is to everyone else. And he
definitely does not sound like the man it would take to "set the house in order".
Before I forget, there is a question I meant to ask. Early on, the chorus was
repeating a word in a way that sounded like mourning. Can someone please tell
me the meaning of "ailinon"? I checked a Greek-English dictionary, but it did not
recognize the word. Old Greek, perhaps?
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Yes, I think Aegisthus will rule badly. It's interesting to speculate on Clytemnestra's thinking, though. Her main motive is revenge for Agamemnon's murder of Iphigenia, but that's not all. She talks of the curse from three generations of evil, and seems to think she might finally have gotten rid of it. Maybe she thinks she can actually achieve a kind of peace.
In the last play, experts argue whether the tragic hero is Creon or Antigone. The same is true here. Is it Clytemnestra or Agamemnon? What does anyone think, and why.
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BABI: I agree about Aegisthus. He's very unlikely to even listen to her ideas on how to end strife, much less carry them out.
Anyone know the meaning of "ailinon"? I don't remember it in my translation. If you could pinpoint where it occurs, we can see what other translations say.
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We have a decision to make in the next few days. The first two plays took longer than we had planned. I think we needed the extra time to get into the unfamiliar form and language. But we are running into other planned discussions.
The third play I had proposed is light, nowhere near the quality or importance in our literary tradition of the first two. I proposed it mainly because, like the Greeks, after all this tragedy, I wanted something with a happy ending. But it may not be worth the trouble.
At this point, we can:
1. Say two plays is enough, and wind things up.
2. Read the third play, Iphigenia in Tauris by Euripides, as planned.
3. Read one of the other plays from the two trilogies that we've already started. either:
3a.The next play after Agammemnon in the trilogy, The Libation bearers, in which Ags children, Orestes and Electra have to deal with what his mother did.
3bOr Oedipus Rex by Sophecles, considered by some to be the greatest of the greek plays. It started the series of tragedies that led to Antigone's dilemma.
Let me know. Whatever we decide, we have read two of the most impoortant plays in our literary heritage. What do you think of that heritage?
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Recommend reading the Libation Bearers
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Changed my mind -- Iphigenia in Tauris -- I have Bynner translation with Lattimore Introduction.
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I have no real preference. However, I do have Iphigenia in Tauris, and I like the idea of yet another writer to compare the different styles, etc. Since I don't know much about Greek plays, I like the "overview" or "introduction to" effect.
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Babi, if you give me a sentence or two where "ailinon" appears, I'll tell you what my translation does with it.
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Unfortunately, I no longer have my copy. Next time I'm at the library I'll look it up and also see
what the other translations have to say. Thanks for the offer, PAT.
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Two votes for Iphigenia. What do the rest of you say?
And while you're thinking, can we answer Virginia Woolf's question: where do these strong women come from in a literature of such a male-dominated society?
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PAT, I was able to check the translation I have been using, but the other two translations were
not available. So I'd be interested to know what your copy says. The quote is "Ailinon, ailinon cry, but may well yet conquer." It is line 113.
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I think I've found it. It's repeated twice more after long stanzas. In Fagles it's
"Cry, cry for death, but good win out in glory in the end."
In the online link we posted it's
"Sing out the song of sorrow, song of grief, but let the good prevail."
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In translation, we don't get a complete idea of the quality of the poetry in these plays. Sophocles was evidently a superb poet, and Aeschylus was almost as good. This is hard to convey in translation. The Greek meters and conventions don't work well in English. I have a feeling the languages don't mesh well either. Apparently classical Greek had a very small vocabulary and made up for it with really complicated grammar, so I bet it's not easy to preserve the feel of the original.
You probably have a choice between accurate prose translation and good poetry which might or might not closely reflect the original. The most poetic translation I've seen is Hughes, and even I can see that he's taken a lot of liberties. Fagles is pretty poetic and guessing from his Odyssey translation he probably tries for accuracy. He's heavy going at times, though. Maybe it's Aeschylus' style; Fagles' Antigone was easy enough reading.
There are plays on words, too. A booklet I checked out of the library (Aeschylus The Oresteia by Simon Goldhill) goes into excruciating detail about the use of the word dike (justice), the subtleties of its meanings in Greek, and the many plays on the word in the Oresteia. I found a few of his references, and it didn't translate well, and the word Justice isn't even used for some of them.
It's a good thing they're good plays as well as good poems.
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JoanK,
ISorry not to have had the time to respond sooner. I hardly know where my head is these days,
Here is another vote for Iphigeneia (or Iphigenia to the Romans). It was the original plan, and it makes sense to go on to Euripides.
We had a "sampling"- if I may call it that - and for some of us a new experience.
Option 3a. would take us forward several years after the death of Ag. Orestes was a baby when Clytemnestra carried him in her arms when she rushed to Iphigenia. Within the relatively short period allotted to this project, It feels right to now take a closer look at courageous Iphigenia.
Option 3b., on the other hand, would carries us back to Oedipus - admittedly in greater detail than we learned while readingAntigone. Euripides' approach may be something to watch for, even in translation.
PatH,
Your point is well taken. May I add that, when it comes to translations, have to remember that, unlile classical Greek like Latin which have not changed, English has, and so have the other modern "live"languages. The English phraseology of a few centuries ago might sound strange to our ears, and that is in fact the justification for making new translations of classical works.
In this connection I fondly recall our discussion here of Dante's Inferno, which I had read in the original Italian during my study there. I had never read it in English. I used the then latest translation by Robert Pinsky, our Poet Laureate for some years. The Italian and the English texts are side by side, one left, one right. Mr. Pinsky's translation is beyond wonderful; it is inspiring and a delight to read.
I probably won't have much time for the computer this week. My daughter flew in today and returns home next Tuesday. But I count on more time to concentrate on this discussion when the festivities have ended.
In haste.
In haste
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Well I have returned from the world of being overwhelmed by guests who came to visit the guests staying with us.
The numbers ranged from six to eleven people each day. I was left exhausted.
Partially recovered I read your posts yesterday and today finished the play itself.
I am amazed at the difference in translations.
My line 113 is,
" the king of birds appearing to the kings of the ships,
the black eagle and behind it the white one,"
By the end of the play I was entranced by the beauty of the translation.(Hugh Lloyd-Jones.). He gives references to Shakespeares use of some of the metaphors used in our play. For instance lines 1316-7
"I cry not out in terror, like a bird before a bush"
This is found in Henry V as:
"The bird that hath been limed in a bush
With trembling wings misdoubteth every bush."
More tomorrow.
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Jude, we posted around the same time. Welcome back.
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Jude, here's Fagles for your two quotes:
"The kings of birds to the kings of beaking prows, one black,
one with a blaze of silver
skimmed the palace spearhand right..."
(If you didn't know the shape of Greek ships, that "beaking prows" would be confusing.)
Friends--I cried out,
not from fear, like a bird fresh caught,
but that you will testify to how I died.
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The Fagles translation makes much more sense than mine. Reading mine again, I wonder
if a word was omitted in error. It would be more intelligible if it saie, "Ailinon,
ailinon cry, but good may yet well conquer." That's closer to what Fagles translated,
also.
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Incidentally, Fagles has both the numbers of the original lines and the line numbers of his translation, and often neither equates exactly with other translations. It's usually close enough to find a passage, though.
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Lloyd- Jones, the translator of my copy is the Regius Professor of Greek at Oxford Univ.
He is constantly pointing out "corrupt lines". This means that they were indecipherable in the original because of wear and tear of the paper. He points out that this gives the translator a wide range of interpertations for those lines.
There can be no correct or incorrect translation since the lines are indecipherable.
I will quoote some facts I found interesting from his intro.
"Not only the language of the chorus, but also that of the actors was altogether far from everyday speech.
The language of Aes.abounds with words borrowed from epic or lyric poetry. He himself freely coined high-sounding compound nouns and adjectives.....
The style of Aes. is in every way a grand style, designed to carry the listener far from the world of ordinary reality. Just as he made more use of spectacle than his successors -in the Orestia Agam.makes a triumphal entry...;the bodies of murdered persons are displayed;the trial scene in the last scene is followed by a torch lit scene....so his language is meant to create a similar effect of pageantry."
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I see now that translators borrow freely from other sources. the version of Agammemnon that I read decades ago had the watchman, when he saw the light but is filled with foreboding, say "Man is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward."
That struck me, and for all this time, i remembered it as something that Aesculus said. Come to find out, it's from the Old Testiment. The translator must have put it in there.
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Traude, Kidsal, Frybabe all want to read Iphigenia.
BABI, JUDE: what about you? Are you game?
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Fine with me. Took out the book from the library when we started the discussion. My translation is by Paul Roche.
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"designed to carry the listener far from the world of ordinary reality. Just as he made
more use of spectacle"
Sounds good to me, JUDE. A lot of the fun in reading is getting
away from 'ordinary reality'. I think good drama, and writing, can still affirm the
underlying truths, but in a way that allows us to see them in a fresh, entertaining way.
Oh, yes, JOANK. I plan to read Iphigenia. I'm just not sure when I'll be able to squeeze
it in between 'Great Expectations; and 'Run'...not to mention my latest bit of escapism fantasy.
Uh, when exactly does this discussion begin?
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We should do it as soon as anyone can read the first half of the play, say in a day or so. That way we'll be through before Great Expectations starts. There aren't going to be any gaps for quite a while. This play is a much easier read than the other two, lighter and less profound.
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OK, lets go on, but we don't have much time. We want to finish by July ! when great Expectations starts.
So for Saturday, lets read the first half of the play: until the point where Orestes and Plyades are talking about Orestes' being sacrificed. Orestes, knowing he's going to die, says "the Oracle of Phoebus is useless to me now, for look the lady comes" Then Iphegenia and the chorus return.
(This is like the old Saturday serials, where we leave Superman trapped in the well, and we don't find out til next week whether he gets out.)
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JoanK
Wasn't the Saturday Serial "Perils of Pauline"?
Did you really get Superman serials? Lucky you, if you did.
I got my Superman from Comic Books.
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It was different superheroes: I think sometimes it was Superman.
Anyway, now we don't have a superhero struck in the well, but poor hapless Orestes. Who will save him?
(Our parents only had enough money to send us to the movies every OTHER Saturday, so I never found out how he got out of the well. By the time I got back, he was stuck in the burning building instead!
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Yes, Judy, there were Saturday Superman serials sometimes, too. And JoanK is right. We never, ever saw a whole story. It wasn't just money; the main feature had to be something our parents thought was suitable for us, and often it wasn't.
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I don't remember Superman in movie serials. I saw the old TV show. My Saturday matinees were usually cowboy movies, like Roy Rogers, Red Ryder, Gene Autry, and some Ma and Pa Kettle thrown in.
Anyhow, I've got to get going on my reading. I haven't started Iphigenia yet.
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It's a quicker read than the other two. I'm writing a summary of events between Agamemnon and Iphigenia--will post it in a bit.
In the meantime, we can still feed in any remaining comments on Agamemnon--today or later.
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All those, FRYBABE, plus some Tarzan and Abbott and Costello. ;D
I'll pick up Iphigenia this morning; that will give me the weekend to get well into it.
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Posted for JoanK.
We have most of the background we need for Iphigenia. Except for one thing: why is she still alive? We left her having been sacrificed to the gods by her father, Agamemnon, thus triggering the revenge of Clytemnestra.
Euripides takes the story one step further. In this version, the goddess Artemis takes pity on Iphigenia, and at the last minute, substitutes a doe for her (no one notices the difference) and whisks her off to an island in the middle of nowhere, Tauris. there, she is the priestess at a temple serving Artemis.
Iph explains this at the beginning, but it might not be clear. She is unhappy, since her job is to prepare any Greek who lands on the island to be sacrificed to Artemis (i.e. killed). Not fun!
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Since we're not reading the rest of the Oresteia, I thought I'd summarize what happens to Orestes before he shows up here.
As Aeschylus tells it, in The Libation Bearers, Orestes, now grown, returns to Argos, is reunited with his sister Electra, and by a stratagem gains access to Aegisthus and kills him. He then, with much reluctance and internal struggle, kills Clytemnestra. In a horrifying finale, as he is standing over Aegisthus and Clytemnestra exactly as Clytemnestra stood over her victims, his talk mixes more and more guilt and horror in with his explanations and he descends into madness, finally fleeing, pursued by monsters that only he can see. In The Eumenedes, Orestes tries to get absolution from Apollo, who had ordered the revenge, but it doesn’t work, and he flees to Athens, appeals to Athena, and is put on trial. He is acquitted, and can return to Argos, free of his demons. In this process, a modern system of justice has replaced the old system of repeated cycles of revenge.
Euripides tells the story of Orestes’ revenge too, in his play Electra. In his version, Electra takes a more active part in tricking their mother, and is present at the murder. Castor and Polydeuces (Pollux) then appear and predict the events of the trial and acquittal. (They are divine, but also brothers of Clytemnestra.) Electra marries Orestes’ friend Pylades, and Orestes goes off for his trial.
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Now, in Iphigenia in Tauris, Euripides has added another hoop for Orestes to jump through before he’s free. He must bring back the image from the temple of Artemis in Tauris. So here he is at the start of the play, about to try to do this.
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BABI: You don't have to get Iph. --there are two versions in the heading. The prose version is easier to read.
I didn't think of Electra when I was looking at strong women. There are a lot out there.
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Remarks by Richmond Lattimore:
Structure and plot is a romance or romantic comedy (Euripides wrote many romantic comedies). Plot: (Similar to play Helen) A woman is transported to the barbaric ends of the earth and held in captivity; convinced that the man she loves most is dead; immediately meets this man and joyfully recognizes him; then contrives their escape; all ends in peace.
Play was presented as a tragedy but the formula we are accustomed to do not apply here – tragic choice/punishment /irreconcilable conflict of characters/revenge breeding new hatred. Lattimore finds two dominant ideals: the love of Greece and friendship.
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Oh, I found a copy of ten Euripides plays in the library,JOAN, including 'Iphigenia..'.
I've read a bit of the intro., and will start on the play itself this weekend.
What a boon for the dramatist, to be able to re-arrange mythical 'history' to suit one's
plot and whim. You want to write a play about a girl sacrificed very young? Simple, just
arrange for a goddess to intervene, secretly. I am glad the play explains that, PAT. It
would bother me terribly otherwise.
I thought it grossly unfair that Orestes should be ordered by a god to commit a crime, then
punished for doing so. Then to have the god who ordered it refuse to absolve him? And to
think I used to see Apollo simply as the god of music and sunlight, the original 'fair-haired boy'.
Ugh!
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I'd think the Greeks would get tired of these gods of theirs. In fact, look for signs in the play that that's true.
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What a boon for the dramatist, to be able to re-arrange mythical 'history' to suit one's
plot and whim. You want to write a play about a girl sacrificed very young? Simple, just
arrange for a goddess to intervene, secretly. I am glad the play explains that, PAT. It
would bother me terribly otherwise.
You can bet it would have bothered the original audience, too. They seem to have liked having the old stories re-worked a bit (but not too much) to give new ones, but I'm sure they were just waiting to pounce on any unexplained inconsistency.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
May 31-June 15
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
June 16-?
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
Iphigenia in Verse (http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/iph_taur.html)
Iphigenia in Prose (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=eur.+it+1)
Iphigenia
Schedule:
June 16-? First half--until the point where Orestes and Plyades are talking about Orestes' being sacrificed.
Orestes, knowing he's going to die, says "the Oracle of Phoebus is useless to me now, for look the lady comes."
Then Iphegenia and the chorus return
Questions:
1. How does Euripides style differ from that of Sophocles and Aeschylus? What other ways is he different?
2. Why does Ipheginia think that Orestes is dead? What do you think her dream meant?
3. Is there a difference in the attitudes toward the gods and omens in this play as against the earlier ones we've read? If so, what indications do you see of it?
4. How do you think all these Greek slave women got there?
5. Are there traces of a sense of humor here? Was there any humor in the earlier plays? This play is neither a tragedy nor a comedy. Are there other such plays in the Greek repertoire?
6. How is the fact that Iphigenia takes the lead in rescuing them fitted into traditional women's roles? In general, what are some of the ways the playwrights we read manage to present strong women and still maintain stereotypical views of women?
7. It took two goddesses and one human woman (herself) to save Ipheginia, not to mention two heroes and a ship. Could you have done it more economically?
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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Babi, I bet you have the same book of ten plays I found in my library--translated by Moses Hadas and John McLean? The introduction has lots of good stuff.
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I too have "Euripedes Ten Plays" from the library but the translation is by Paul Roche.
Here is a fun fact:
For the play Iphigenia at Aulis (not Tauris) Euripedes received (posthumously) his fifth First Prize...13 for Aeschylus and 18 for Sophocles.
In the Intro Roche says that EUripedes showed that women were a power in society. He takes more care in his delineation of their characters than he does those of the men.
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That's the one, PAT. I just scanned the intro. to get a bit of background on Euripides
and some insight into Iphigenia. Glad I did.
He does, doesn't he, JUDE. Another big difference I seeing in Euripides, that excepting the
chorus, the older tragedians gave their actors much shorter dialogue. I read a very long
speech by Iphigenia, amazed that the actor could memorize all that.
I was also staggered to learn that the goddess had rescued Iphigenia in order to install her
as a priestess in her temple at Taurus, with the job of 'sanctifying' any strangers who showed
up, for torture and sacrifice! Talk about a mixed blessing. >:(
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Hadas' introduction is useful. I liked his remark that Euripides criticized the rigid rules of his society by having his characters follow them, leading to results that didn't seem quite fair or right, leaving the audience feeling uneasy. He advocated for society's underdogs, including women, bastards, and barbarians.
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"Talk about a mixed blessing."
Yeah, she's alive, but what a job! No wonder she's unhappy.
" Euripides criticized the rigid rules of his society by having his characters follow them, leading to results that didn't seem quite fair or right, leaving the audience feeling uneasy."
Let's look for instances of that. Do we see cracks in the belief system here?
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The notes also say that the Romans liked Euripedes better than Aesculus or Sophecles. As we read him, lets see if we can guess why.
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Definitely some cracks in the belief system here. Which would be one reason Euripides was
more popular with the audience than with the judges and sponsors. After all, traditionally the
tragedies were performed to honor the gods.
I think Euripides style is much more to the modern taste. Two story lines developing,
less idealized characters, suspense. Especially, suspense. In the earlier tragedies, the
audience already knew the story well.
Orestes cries out to Phoebus (Apollo) We learn that ‘Phoebus’ has sent him to this dangerous country to the temple of Apollo’s sister Artemis, to “take from there the goddess’ image
which men say fell into this temple here from heaven”. Sounds like the arrival of Iphigenia,
doesn’t it? Is Apollo sending him to rescue his sister, or is he planning to destroy them both.
I am inclined, after reading two of these dramas, to expect the worst.
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Babi, I wonder if our characters are caught in the middle of a godly sibling fight. Orestes, under the domination of Apollo, is sent to steal Artemis' image. Iphigenia has a dream in which the last pillar of the ruined house of Atreus turns into her brother, who she then anoints for sacrifice. She interprets this as meaning that Orestes is dead, but maybe it's her marching orders from Artemis to sacrifice him. We'll have to see who the gods help or hinder in the next half.
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Apollo and Artemis are not only siblings, they're twins. Not all twins act like that. I've never ever asked anyone to steal one of JoanK's images.
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Thank you, Pat! I'll return your image tomorrow.
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I finished the play. It was so much easier to read than the other two.
It would make a great movie since it has so many exciting moments and then, best of all, a happy ending.
I did wonder about Iphigenia saying:
"A man's death is a family's loss, a woman's is no matter".
I can't tell you what line it is since this translation does not number the lines.
How ever the next line after the above is:
Orestes:I'll not be my Mother's murderer then yours. Her blood is enough.
I also wonder about the translator saying that
Euripedes was misunderstood in his time.
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I did wonder about Iphigenia saying:
"A man's death is a family's loss, a woman's is no matter".
I did too. She says this as an argument for Orestes escaping even if she has to stay behind and die. The daughters of a house would, of course, marry away from the house into others and become part of them. Athena makes a similar argument defending Orestes in his trial in the Oresteia--that the father is more important than the mother. Aeschylus means it seriously, but I'm not sure whether Euripides does.
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The third maiden explains that she was captured in war and sold to be an exile in Tauris.
The great friendship between Orestes and Pylades -- both willing to die for the other - finally work out a solution.
Like the line: If a man is sorry for himself, he doubles death.
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PAT & JOAN... :D You two are the images of perfect twins.
You can hear echoes of that in Shakespeare, can't you, KIDSAL. "The coward dies many times
before his death..." I agree with JUDE that this could make a great movie.
The chorus ( of maidens..an interesting change) reinforce my dread of what
Apollo intends. “Such was the affliction on affliction that the Golden Lamb
brought on these halls, and death on death, woe on woe. Retribution for the Tantalids that
died of old works itself out against the house”. These ancient gods really held on to their
grudges. If anyone offended them, they would wipe out the offender and all his family to
the last generation!
I can see where Euripides could have been misunderstood in his time. He is going against some
of the rules of traditional tragedy. A perfect example is Euripides shocking disrespect for the gods. Iphigenia, with no one nearby to hear, says, “The goddess equivocates. I like it not. If any mortal stain his hand with bloodshed, if any hand touch a woman in child-bed, or a dead body, she keeps him from her altars and counts him unclean. But she takes pleasure in sacrificial murder.” However, she backtracks on that, possibly due to her own painful and awkward position. She closes her soliloquy with the words, “It is the men of this land, I believe, being themselves murderers, who lay their on guilt on the gods. No god, I am sure, can be evil.”
That, I suspect, is Euripides giving himself a way out of any accusations of blasphemy.
Actually, I have had to come to much the same conclusion myself. I could not believe in
a God who would cause evil things to happen for his own vengeance or pleasure. It seems
clear to me that people act according to their own natures, and justify their uglier acts in the
name of some ‘noble’ cause. Or perhaps simply what they consider realism.
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I know that we have concentrated on tragedy in this discussion. However the Greeks also wrote Comedies.
In the fascinatng book "Ancient Greek Literature in its Living Context" by H.C.Baldry there are ssme great examples of this type of writing.
I thought you all would enjoy this bit from "The Birds" by Aristophanes:
Truly to be clad in feathers is the very best of things,
Only fancy, dear spectators, had you each a brace of wings,
Never need you, tired and hungry, at a Tragic Chorus stay,
You would likely, when it bored you, spread your wings and fly away,
Back returning, after luncheon, to enjoy our Comic Play.
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:) I could use those wings sometimes.
When we were trying to decide which plays to read, I read Lysistrata, a combination of comedy and strong women, but it was waaaay too raunchy to discuss here.
Euripides writes in the tragic format, but his themes are more down to earth, and many of his plays have happy endings, even if he has to drag in a god to make it happen.
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JUDE: that's hilarious!
In my translation, Iph is even clearer that she doesn't believe that Artemis wants these human sacrifices:
"No, I believe that the people of this land
beinng murderers themselves
have foisted their murderous instincts on the godess,
I refuse to think that any god is evil."
This is a very interesting statement. The Athenians can't object, because he is only criticizing some foreigners. (My prologue says it's thought that the Taurans were relatives of the Trojans, the Greeks' enemy). But look how subversive of the whole system of jealous gods and ritual sacrifice it is.
There are other pokes at the system. When Iph hears that Orestes is alive:
Iph: (talking of the dream that Orestes was dead) Dreams, dreams, goodbye! You were all a lie.
Orestes: And so are the gods-- no better than dreams on wings, and yet they say so wise!"
I can't imagine either of our other playrights saying that. As a sociologist, I wonder if there were changes in social thinking that made such statements acceptable. Or was Euripides a rebel -- as far as I know, he didn't get in any trouble, although he didn't win as many prizes as the other two.
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PAT, you recall to mind an occasion when my husband invited my parents to dinner at a
restaurant that featured entertainment with medieval skits. The 'skit' was so raunchy I
spent the entire evening red-faced and hot with embarassment.
I was interested in tracing the route of Orestes and Pylades as described by the chorus.
Phineus was a Greek mythological king of Thrace. Thrace, in those times was the Balkans,
which ran South to the Aegean Sea. Just across the Aegean from Greece is Turkey.
I also found that Turkey has a famous 'white beach’. Unfortunately, I did not find a
map of Turkey that gave me enough detail to locate the town nearest the beach. Still,
it does appear that this savage land that sacrificed strangers was on the coast of Turkey.
More on what Kidsal was saying... “I do not count him wise who, condemned to death, seeks by lamentation to blunt the horror of extinction, or, when death is at hand and all hope of rescue is gone, tries to move pity. He contrives two evils out of one; he proves himself a fool and dies just the same.” Great lines. Yeah, this would make a good film. Who would we
choose to play Iphigenia and Orestes, I wonder?
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I'm seeing a lot more in this play than I did when i proposed it, thanks to you all. Thats the beauty of these discussions.
Lets read the rest of the play for tomorrow, if you haven't already.
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Hmm, everybody else must be busy reading, JOAN. It's me again already.
Okay, so Orestes was acquitted of guilt at the holy tribunal of Zeus, in a tie vote, thanks to the testimony of Apollo and Athena’s vote for acquittal. I found a description of the trial
elsewhere that states Athena persuaded the Erinyes (the Furies from the Underworld)
to accept this decision. For 'Iphigenia’, however, Euripides has resurrected the pursuit.
According to one source, the story was changed to allow some Erinyes to disagree with
the decision and continue to hound him. If they required persuasion by Athena to begin
with, it seems apparent that these Underworld spirits were not subject to the decisions of
the “Holy tribunal’ of Zeus?? The lines of godly authority and power are obscure, at least to me.
Orestes: “If a man is acting and eager, the divine power is more effective, one may presume.”Is this more of Euripides tongue-in-cheek irony? It has definitely survived, wherever it originated. “God helps those who help themselves.” Who was it said that?
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PatH says that Euripides' other play about Iph satirizes the heroes of the Trojan War. And it won a prize! I wonder if we've wandered into the Greek equivilant of the 60s in the US, when everything in society was questioned and criticized?
Well, not everything. It's a goddess who decides everything at the end.
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Euripides seems to regard the gods with less than perfect awe, but he's really gunning for Apollo. Look what he has the chorus say. This is after Iphigenia has led the supposed purification procession off, and Thoas has re-entered the temple. They describe Phoebus (Apollo) as an infant, killing the monster serpent that infested the Delphic oracle and taking it over. But this displaced the child of Earth, who retaliated by giving mortals prophetic dreams, thus ruining Apollo's business.
"Swiftly then did the king rush to Olympus and twined his baby fingers about the throne of Zeus and begged him to deliver his Pythian home from the fury of Earth. Zeus smiled when he saw that the child had lost no time in coming to claim a worship so productive of wealth."
Zeus stopped the dreams and gave Loxias (Apollo) his privileges back.
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Pat
Are you going to do Author,Author?
If you are too busy I'll do it.
Let me know.
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Jude, if you've got one, I'd appreciate it. I seem to be having trouble coming up with anything.
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I was shocked to discover that the ‘madness’ which fell on Orestes after killing his
mother led to his also murdering not only her lover but all of their families within
his reach, including some children. Now he is here because he believes if he takes
the idol as directed, he will be cured of his madness. He seems remarkably calm and
sane for one still in the grip of a murderous madness.
The name Loxias suddenly appeared in the story as the one who ‘ordained’ that
Orestes must complete this task. I find that Loxias is a name for Apollo as the god
of ‘incomprehensible oracular sayings’. Oh, great. That’s so reassuring.
I was startled when Orestes casually asked whether they should kill the king as part of their
escape plan. I was even more startled when Iphigenia replied, “O horrible! Visitors kill their host?” Host? Capturing strangers to sacrifice to the local God is very far from the
accepted visitor/host relationship!
Well, I can't complain this play is boring, can I? :o
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"Visitors kill their host?" I wonder if that's more of Euripides' irony. But maybe Iphigenia regards him as her host; he's given her a place as his priestess, never mind that neither of them asked for it, it was all Artemis' doing. Babi, if you ever come to visit me, I promise not to offer you up as a sacrifice to Artemis.
"God of incomprehensible oracular sayings". That really cracked me up; it's so true. Do you remember Terry Pratchett's goddess of things that get stuck in drawers and keep them from opening? Her mantra is "I could close the drawer all right when I put it in".
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I had to return my book to the library but if I remember correctly Orestes calls his behavior "Fits of madness".
He tries to explain it by saying that when he is sane he regrets what he has done in his "madness".
The only real Psychological disease in which this happens is "Multiple Personality Disorder". A good example is Dr Jekyl and Mister Hyde.
It is a very rare but real disease. I think unless you see that point where one person becomes another totally differnt person it is hard to believe. However once you are present with that person and observe it you know it really happens and that one personality may or may not know what the other is doing. Certainly there is no control of the "other".
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That's how it looks in the play, Jude, a sudden change. Pylades is talking to the herdsmen when suddenly Orestes starts screaming about the dragon, and attacking the cows. Eventually he comes to his senses, not seeming to know what just happened, and defends himself appropriately from the attacking herdsmen. None of the herdsmens stones hit home--maybe the furies are preserving their victims for more torment. I thought of berserkers, too. Is there an explanation for them?
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Perhaps we're seeing here the greek attempt to explain mentsal illnesses where the person sees things. The furies or some other supernatural beings are there.
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Berserkers are named for a 9th century Norse tribe.
The behavior of going beserk in our time may often be attributed to the ingestion of hallucigenic materials such as
hallucigenic mushrooms or massive amounts of Alcohol or PCP.
The term berserkers used for soldiers in the Vietnam war may have been an overdose ofAdrenalin inducing
opiods. It was also (in the Vietnam War) considered a state of hyperarousal as part of the PTSD cycle. It is considered
the heart of Psychological and Psychophysiological injuries of the mind. Not evry soldier or person with PTSD goes through this part of the cycle. However when you hear about mild mannered soldiers returning from Iraq and beating their wives this is the culprit.
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What is Euripides' attitude toward women? I had been told he thought poorly of them, but I can't really see that. In fact I have trouble figuring out what he really thinks about anything. He is so full of irony and understated subversive digs, all of them in an unfamiliar cultural context, that it's easy to miss nuances. I sometimes wonder if I'm doing the equivalent of reading "Brutus is an honorable man" and thinking that means Shakespeare approves of Brutus.
What do you think?
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A couple of dialog exchanges that amused me: when Iphigenia is reading her letter aloud to Pylaades, Orestes, stunned, keeps trying to interrupt her with the truth and she keeps shushing him. The same thing happens when the mesenger comes to king Thoas with the news of Iphigenia's escape. He keeps rudely ignoring the king's questions and getting back to what he has to say. I'm surprised you can talk to a king like that.
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Oh, gee, PAT, thanks so much. I don't remember that Pratchett bit and I do love him.
Do you by any chance remember which book that was in?
Meanwhile, I found something to smile about. In the dialog between Iphigenia and Troas, Iphigenia speaks of acting for ‘the friends to whom I owe most”. Troas immediately responds, “You speak of me. How rightly does the whole city admire you.” The smug assumption of the royal male. 8)
Troas does not seem to command a great deal of respect even from his own servants. The
messenger who comes to tell him Orestes and Ephigena are escaping is bluntly impatient with
the king’s interruption. “Forget that and listen to me. Listen closely to what I say and think of
some method of pursuit to overtake the strangers.” Sounds like the messnger is giving the orders here, and none too politely.
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No, I don't remember which book, and it's annoying. Pratchett's wording was a little snappier and funnier.
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Considering that having three characters was relatively new, I think Euripides does a great job with it in the scene where Ip is reading the letter to Orestes aloud to Pylades, and keeps shutting Orestes up. I'll beeet the audience howled, when, after all that buildup of oaths etc., Pylades simply handed the letter to Orestes.
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That was a good scene, wasn't it, JOAN? I have to agree, Euripides is much more fun than
than Aeschylus and Sophocles.
I see that Iphigenia is the master strategist is plotting their escape. She does seem to think
of everything. I'm quite impressed.
We're getting close to the close, to the intervention of the goddess Athena. Very handy, that ‘deus ex machina’. Of course we’d howl with scorn at any writer who tried
that now, but I suppose it was quite satisfactory in those times.
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Very handy, that ‘deus ex machina’. Of course we’d howl with scorn at any writer who tried
that now, but I suppose it was quite satisfactory in those times.
One of my introductions said that Euripides used it so much that other playwrights could no longer get away with it.
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I have to agree, Euripides is much more fun
than Aeschylus and Sophocles.
Aeschylus and Sophocles have all the nobility and elemental emotions and suffering, but Euripides has all the snappy lines.
These are the three great Greek tragedians. How do they compare? Which ones do you like?
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One of my introductions said that Euripides used it so much that other playwrights could no longer get away with it.
;D
Euripides is definitely my favorite of the three. More entertaining, more subtlety and humor.
I do want to comment on Athena. I trust...and hope...that the honors to the goddess in commemoration of her new temple are symbolic. That placing 'the knife to the neck of some man’ and let him let blood refers to a small symbolic cut and not human sacrifices.
I’m almost afraid to ask, but does anyone know exactly what the ‘garments of fine-spun web’ are, that ‘women leave in their homes when they give up the ghost in childbirth’?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/classicsbookclub/Epidauros_Greece.jpg)
Greek Theater at Epidauros
Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.
So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!
Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
May 31-June 15
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
June 16-?
Antigone Online (http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/antigone.html)
Agamemnon Online (http://www.irasov.com/agamemnon.pdf)
Iphigenia in Verse (http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/iph_taur.html)
Iphigenia in Prose (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=eur.+it+1)
Iphigenia
Schedule:
June 16-? First half--until the point where Orestes and Plyades are talking about Orestes' being sacrificed.
Orestes, knowing he's going to die, says "the Oracle of Phoebus is useless to me now, for look the lady comes."
Then Iphegenia and the chorus return
Questions:
1. How does Euripides style differ from that of Sophocles and Aeschylus? What other ways is he different?
2. Why does Ipheginia think that Orestes is dead? What do you think her dream meant?
3. Is there a difference in the attitudes toward the gods and omens in this play as against the earlier ones we've read? If so, what indications do you see of it?
4. How do you think all these Greek slave women got there?
5. Are there traces of a sense of humor here? Was there any humor in the earlier plays? This play is neither a tragedy nor a comedy. Are there other such plays in the Greek repertoire?
6. How is the fact that Iphigenia takes the lead in rescuing them fitted into traditional women's roles? In general, what are some of the ways the playwrights we read manage to present strong women and still maintain stereotypical views of women?
7. It took two goddesses and one human woman (herself) to save Ipheginia, not to mention two heroes and a ship. Could you have done it more economically?
DLs: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) and PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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The new temple is to be to Artemis. Wikipedia says that Artemis had the power to preserve or take away life during childbirth. If a woman died during childbirth, her clothing was given to Artemis, as being responsible. If she survived, she sacrificed some of her clothing to Artemis. So that must be what's meant.
"Let him let blood" sounds symbolic to me, but I wouldn't bet money on it.
Notice that Athena brings up the point of tied votes. She made a big thing of this at the end of the Oresteia, when she said that if the vote in Orestes' trial was tied, she would break the tie and vote for acquittal. In the Athenian legal system, a tied vote led to acquittal.
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Were women allowed to vote at trials?
From what i've read it was always an all male jury.
Perhaps Athena would transform herself into a man?
Stranger things have happened in these plays.
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I think goddesses could do whatever they wanted. Other women -- forget it!
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It's getting close to time to wind up this discussion. Before we go, those who are new to greek drama, what do you think? Does it deserve the place of honor that it holds in our culture? Would you like to see these or another Greek play?
I should say "held in our culture". I don't think the Greek plays are read/performed now as they were a few genersations ago. Is this good, bad, or indifferant?
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In The Eumenedes, Athena simply tells the jury if it's a tie, I'm breaking it, and I'll vote for acquittal. She's speaking as goddess, not woman.
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Comparisons of the three playwrights:
When I read Sophocles' Antigone, it moved me to tears, and I was excited about the moral and political issues it raised.
It took me a lot of hard work to make sense of Aeschylus' Agamemnon. That isn't quite fair to Aeschylus; the other two plays in the Oresteia are much easier, and they have very moving moments in them--especially The Libation Bearers.
Both writers deal with strong, basic emotions and ideals, in a fairly lofty way. They have political things to say, too, mostly dealing with the way Athens is governed, and it seems to me mostly supporting the status quo.
Euripides is something else. In his hands the same characters are more down to earth and less idealized. Their emotions are there, but they don't move you. His political criticism is underhand sniping at the status quo of both gods and men. And he makes you chuckle. As Babi points out, he's more fun. I wouldn't have gotten as good a hold on him if we hadn't read the other plays, and learned the conventions of the theater.
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Of the three, I like Iphigenia in Tauris the best. I like the flow of words better; there is a rhythm to it that carried me along. I was a bit bummed to discover that Odysseus had a hand in Iphigenia's sacrifice. It makes me feel, then, that he deserved all the grief he got on his way home from Troy.
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It makes me feel, then, that he deserved all the grief he got on his way home from Troy.
His crew didn't deserve it, though, even if they did eat Helios' cattle.
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It would be interesting to compare the three telling the same story. This is possible with Aeschylus' The Libation Bearers, Euripides' Electra, and Sophocles' Electra. I've now read the first two, and hope to read the third tonight, if it isn't too dense. Tomorrow I'll report on what I've got.
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Surely the gods are not treating the goddesses like second-rate citizens, JUDE. Those
gals were powerful and could be really mean and vengeful. Starting with the head gal,
Hera.
PAT, I agree about the eternal moral and political issues raised in Antigone, But
my reaction to Antigone herself was to wish I was her mother so I could sit her down
and give her a good talking-to. She was enjoying herself playing a high-drama role
with a teen-agers defiance of the results.
Aeschylus was 'meatier', but I found the choruses overlong and most of the characters
unappealing. Euripides was my favorite. I could appreciate his irony, his careful
jabs at the gods, and characters that behaved like real people. I'll be interested to hear
your comparison of the three 'Electra's.
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I let the dust settle till I chose my favorite.
Not sure I liked the play or the language which I felt was so beautiful...Agamemnon by Aeschylus.
It might have been the talent of the translator or the description of the battle scenes.
I let the characters fade and the writing become the forefront of my choice.
My least favorite character was whiny, self rightous Antigone.
As far as Greek charcters go-well the two I remember are not from this round of reading.
They are the tortured Oedipus and the wonderful heroic Lysistrata.
I learned a lot that I would never know so lets say HURRAH to our fine leaders:JOAN K & PAT !!
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Jude, if you didn't care for Antigone, you really wouldn't like Electra as Sophocles paints her. But you probably would like The Libation Bearers. I've now read all three--have to go out for a while, but then I'write about them.
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Well, now I’ve read all three versions of Electra’s story.
Aeschylus is the most moving and dramatic. Orestes is horrified at the necessity of killing his mother, and there is a strong scene in which Clytemnestra tries to win her life from him. She is looking out for herself, calling for an ax before she faces him, but playing the mother love card for all it’s worth. After much wavering, he kills her (off-stage as always) and is shown with the two bodies in a parody of Clytemnestra’s pose with Agamemnon’s body. Then he goes mad before our eyes, looking at his bloody sword, getting more and more irrational, finally running off screaming from furies that only he can see.
In the third play he is tried and released from the Furies.
Sophocles is the most disappointing. Electra was secondary in Aeschylus, but here it’s all about her. Those who didn’t like the character of Antigone really won’t like Electra here. She’s bitter and irrational, won’t listen to anyone, seems out of control. (She even has a younger sister who plays a similar role to Ismene in Antigone.) She has good reason to be this way. It’s made clear that Clytemnestra badly mistreated her, and still behaves as badly to her daughter as Electra does to her.
The emotional conflict is in Electra’s emotions when she learns of Orestes’ supposed death (a ruse) and her joy on meeting him alive. An introduction writer found this very moving, but I didn’t. The murders are very low-key--Clytemnestra is quickly dispatched, and Aegisthus is led off like a sheep, even though he knows he’s going to be killed.
No mention is made of any punishment for Orestes.
This is a good prose translation if you’re interested; it’s a quick read.
http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Electra.htm (http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Electra.htm)
Euripides has his usual down to earth tone. The characters are more ordinary. Electra is stuck in an unconsummated marriage to a peasant. She takes an active part, luring her mother to the hovel she lives in with a ruse, and helping wield a sword at the death. The emotions are lower key. The arguments before Clytemnestra’s death are acrimonious, not harrowing, with many accusations by Electra, though Clytemnestra’s love for Orestes peeps through.
The deus ex machina: Castor and Polydeuces appear at the end to foretell the pursuit by the furies and the trial, but manage to get in a dig at Apollo in the process. (The play is full of those little digs we like.)
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Surely we've now squeezed everything we can out of these plays. That was a lot of work, but a lot of fun too. Thank you, everyone who participated. You worked hard at it, and your insights and the back and forth conversations here brought up so many more ideas than appear on a first reading. Now I really feel like I have a handle on Greek plays.
We'll leave the discussion open a day or two before locking it, just in case anyone wants it.
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JUDE, the 'wonderful, heroic Lysistrata' sounds good. Sounds like she would make a good
contrast to Antigone and Clytemnestra.
PAT & JOAN, my thanks for a great introduction to Greek tragedy. You keep stimulating my
brain marvelously! 8)
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Lysistrata is indeed wonderfully heroic, ingenious and clever, and actually succeeds in stopping a war, and the play is very funny--I read it when we were picking plays. However, it is also one of the raunchiest things I've read in a long time, totally unsuitable for the discussions here.
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Oh, my! :-[ But then, I'll be reading it in private, won't I? ;)
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;)
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YES, BABI, that's why I didn't include it. But enjoy.
Interestint the three versions of Electra. Even in this (to us) unfamiliar format, the differences between authors come through.
I've enjoyed this a lot -- it was hard work at times, but its good to flex my brain once in a while. And I learned learned even more than I expected to.
As usual, the best part was the company. You all really are great! I'll leave the site open for another day or so, in case anyone thinks of anything they forgot to say. then, see you in the next discussion!
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Goodbye to the greeks for now. See you in thwe next discussion -- maybe time to visit the Romans again.
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Although I haven't participated that much, I did enjoy the discussion. Thanks all.
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Me, too, and I think our intrepid leaders, JoanK and Pat H have done a fabulous job. And so have the posters: I enjoyed learning from everybody who commented. I hate it we have had so much going on on the farm that I couldn't keep up despite my best intentions, capped off by lots of trees down Sunday and being without power for a long time, telephone poles broken off and suspended in mid air by the wires, that made the news, (and it's still there, cut off on both ends), but all's well that ends. Could have been a lot worse and we didn't lose one baby chick, which is a miracle, and the hay got baled. I am so proud of the group here which did such a great job together.
Well done!