SeniorLearn.org Discussions

Archives & Readers' Guides => Archives of Book Discussions => Topic started by: BooksAdmin on March 15, 2009, 10:51:40 AM

Title: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BooksAdmin on March 15, 2009, 10:51:40 AM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/shortstory/wodehouse2.jpg)
Jeeves in the Springtime
An early P.G.Wodehouse Short Story

"'tis the season when a young man's fancy turns to thoughts of love,"
and mauve shirts, ties, old school chums, roses, cooks, waitresses.
Bertie Wooster, his man Jeeves in London between the Wars.

Turn pages using the numbers in this Link - using the arrows will change stories.
Web-Book Jeeves In The Springtime (http://www.web-books.com/Classics/AuthorsTZ/Wodehouse/Death/Wodehouse_DeathC5P1.htm)

Stephen Fry on PG Wodehouse (http://www.pgwodehousebooks.com/fry.htm)
Sir Pelham Grenville Wodehouse (http://www.arcmanor.com/wodehouse.htm)

General Discussion for Humor, Wit & Satire in Short Stories (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=351.0)

Questions to Consider
Another Set of Questions next Saturday Night

Discussion Leader: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse (Waiting for first Post)
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 15, 2009, 07:13:13 PM
This is so exciting - a NEW discussion!

We are starting Monday, March 16 with Jeeves in the Springtime (http://www.web-books.com/Classics/AuthorsTZ/Wodehouse/Death/Wodehouse_DeathC5P1.htm)-  I do hope you pull up a chair and join us -

This humorous short story is all ready for you to read - FAST DELIVERY - NO EXPENSE - it is all on-line - a P.G.Wodehouse  -  just his name spells laughter - Jeeves in the Springtime (http://www.web-books.com/Classics/AuthorsTZ/Wodehouse/Death/Wodehouse_DeathC5P1.htm) is also linked in the heading - I have another link to the story that I must find and I will add it in another post.

Each mid- month we will be able to discuss one story that is on-line  - the discussion is scheduled as 10 days of talking -

Starting in April we will select a story from three and the winner will be scheduled the second month out - 

Example: the selection made from 3 stories in April will become the feature of June's discussion and the selection made from May will become the July discussion - so forth -

There will be an opportunity the last few days of each discussion starting the last few days of this March discussion to get your suggestions in if you want a story to be included in the three that are chosen -

Remember the short story must be on-line and it must use Humor or Wit or Satire or all three.  So many of the 18th and 19th century authors from Mark Twain to Oscar Wilde have short stories that will fit our discussion - a lot to choose from.

Help us launch this new Discussion Please...  :)
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Frybabe on March 15, 2009, 11:07:26 PM
I've never read P. G. Wodehouse, but I do remember seeing something on TV a long, long time ago. TV show? Movie? Don't remember.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 15, 2009, 11:31:43 PM
The guy who plays House on TV - that doctor show - is Bertie Wooster in the TV series. Aha found it - here is some of Bertie Wooster and Jeeves on You Tube - sure gives us an ear for the tone of voice while we're reading our short story. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNSUPlcz4Bg&feature=related
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Frybabe on March 15, 2009, 11:54:01 PM
Good Heavens! By golly, it is. I don't watch House. (Well, I did see one show)
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: hats on March 16, 2009, 07:59:39 AM
Are there two sites? I went somewhere else not sure where. Maybe I'm not awake yet.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Babi on March 16, 2009, 10:23:01 AM
Just checking in quickly.  I don't have time to read the short story this morning. My daughter works at home via this computer, so I have to clear out before her workday starts.  I'll check back in first chance I get.  While I'm not a great fan of short stories, I do enjoy fun and wit.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 16, 2009, 10:59:51 AM
You'll  enjoy Wodehouse Babi  - I guess in today's market we have to be thankful your daughter has a job so that sharing a computer is nothing  - I bet your days are full if you are sharing a computer it sounds like you are sharing a house - no silent rooms in your house are there  ;)

You are OK hats - not seeing things - yes, there are two sites -

The main site is set up to look at what Humor Wit and Satire in literature is all about - we decided to use the short story as a way of  having fun while seeing how authors make us laugh or make us knowingly shake our heads with a wry smile on our face.

This will be a 10 day discussion - we start today and the focus questions are in the heading along with the link to the story - in the  heading there are two other links to learn more about Wodehouse.

This discussion goes away next week where as the opportunity to learn more about Humor Wit and Satire Short Stories is an ongoing discussion where no particular book is discussed -

In time these discussions will find their level - like anything new it takes a bit to catch on - we are starting and that is important - so glad you looked in and awaiting your posts Babi and hats.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: CallieOK on March 16, 2009, 11:14:06 AM
Marking my place so I can read along.  Sounds interesting.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: nlhome on March 16, 2009, 12:25:13 PM
Marking my place also. Nan
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: joyous on March 16, 2009, 12:58:12 PM

Call me JOY, THE LURKER------
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: EvelynMC on March 16, 2009, 04:48:51 PM
Marking.

Evelyn
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 16, 2009, 05:30:24 PM
Welcome Evelyn and you also Joy the Lurker even if you are a lurker - Hope we can get you laughing so that you will have to give a post with a laughing face to let us know you are out there -  ;)

As to the Wodehouse Jeeves short story - I remember when my children were still taking afternoon naps - I would use the time to  clean up after lunch and take my lunch into the living room and read either a magazine or a library book - from the time they were age 3 and 4 we walked to the Library every week and I picked up a book for myself. Well I picked up one of the Jeeves books - do not remember which - it was a full length novel and the story had Bertie using cutlery to scratch the itch under the caste on his broken leg. He lost the cutlery inside the caste and on and on - it was a riot - I laughed outloud so hard that I caught myself for fear of waking my two young'ens.

Recently having remembered how funny the stories were - Back years ago I did check out a couple more of the Wodehouse novels -  and just before the holidays I found 2 of the books on Cd's and decided they were perfect for my long trip to my daughter's at Christmas - and then while at it I decided to get a set of Cd's for one of my grandson's who is into anything British - The reader on the tape of  "Carry On, Jeeves" is  Martin Jarvis - who uses that same upper class Brit accent - Martin Jarvis is the actor who plays the part of the Burser in the Inspector Lynley series. http://www.britslash.co.uk/programmes/lynley.htm

Did anyone see the PBS series with Wooster and Jeeves - Borders had the series on sale last week but I was not up for $79.95 even if they were 40% off - the 'You Tube' spots are a window into not only the speech pattern and tone of voice that is British upper class but the look or decor of the rooms help as well.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: nlhome on March 16, 2009, 06:14:10 PM
I've seen a couple of the Jeeve's programs on PBS. Many years ago I read several of the novels and enjoyed the humor. This story was fun to read.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Frybabe on March 16, 2009, 06:51:58 PM
Well, I just finished the story. What a devious smarty that Jeeves is.

I expect that "jumping season" is referring to Steeplechase racing and that Bingo picked a few winners. My first thoughts regarding the question of the cravat vs. the tie w/horseshoes was that ties of certain colored stripe, insignia, etc. were club ties. So, Bingo would belong to some kind of racing club. However, the story indicates that his girlfriend gave it to him. So he would be wearing it to please her?  I am going to assume until further investigation that ties were popular with the business class. I hesitate to say working class, because I think of them as the poorly paid factory workers. But times are definitely change for the class system between the wars. Now I have to go look up when ties as we know them (including bowties) became popular.

Aha, found an interesting history: http://www.bensilver.com/style04/ties_history.htm
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 16, 2009, 06:57:41 PM
So glad it was a fun read for you  nlhome-  how about giving us  your two cents about the story - the focus questions are  in the  heading -

yea Frybabe  you also read the story - yes, that tie - I thought maybe it was considered gouache by Bertie but I  have not read  your link yet.

As I understand Satire you have to know the social or political history of the times and so knowing London will help us with this story.

Without, having looked up history what I remember reading is that London after WWI was very different then the US. They had lost so many of their young men in that war and so many of the upper class who were officers that women were coming in off the farms for the first time to work in London as well as other small towns. I am thinking the average Brit must have had a different conception of life after WWI - didn't they call it the lost generation - a group of writers etc. who wrote between the wars.

here is an interesting article http://www.thesportjournal.org/article/soccer-hooliganism-england-between-wars  that talks about the makeup of the Soccer games and how after WWI there was less "hooliganism" which the article says came about because of the mix of the middle class who wanted to prove to the upper classes they could act with decorum.

And so a waitress and a cook is the middle class in our Jeeves story - we do not hear much from them as about them but they and their skills sure are at the center of it all.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 16, 2009, 07:05:41 PM
aha
Quote
The tie as we know it today has been around since the 1920s, but the four-in-hand, in its early chrysalis stage, was in fashion in the 1860s in England. Unlike its progenitors which warmed the neck, or simply made a statement of fashion, the late 19th century variety served the purpose of showing the wearer's affiliations.
from your site Frybabe - hmm with so many needle like remarks aimed at Little I wonder if it is a bit by Wodehouse showing Bertie still of the old school where loyalty to ones school is for all the world to see by way of your tie and he is being confronted with the new by way of a waitress!

Well at least we know the story is after 1920
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Frybabe on March 16, 2009, 07:17:37 PM
Barb, wasn't that old Masterpiece Theatre series Upstairs, Downstairs also set between the wars? or was that just before WWI? I didn't watch much of it.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 16, 2009, 07:47:03 PM
Looks like earlier frybabe - here is the link saying the story was between 1903  and WWI http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/U/htmlU/upstairsdow/upstairsdow.htm\

However this would be the childhood experience of Bertie and I guess Jeeves - hard to place how old Jeeves is as compared to Bertie. I get the impression not much older only a life with a different set of responsibilities
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: mabel1015j on March 16, 2009, 09:54:33 PM
just marking my spot.............jean
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Babi on March 17, 2009, 09:02:05 AM
  I think one of the things I like most about Bertie is that he quite cheerfully acknowledges Jeeves superior taste, intellect and sources of information.  Wouldn't dream of  'putting him in his place', as so often happened with upper class and servants.
  I tried to find out what 'mazzard' was, since Bertie was prepared to smack in the mazzard one who particularly offended him.  The only mazzard I could find is a wild sweet cherry tree, which really fits.  It must have been a very short-lived slang term.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Frybabe on March 17, 2009, 09:42:54 AM
I was puzzled by "whangee". It appears to be a name associated to over 40 Asian grasses. So, I wonder if he was referring to his straw hat.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 17, 2009, 12:31:22 PM
Who'd have thought Babi and Frybabe we could benefit by an annotated version of a book written just before many of us were born - between 'missard' and "whangee" finding not just a definition but how the words were used in the 1920s is a challenge.

Found this great article on the state of London theatre during the 1920s -  I knew but forgot - this is when the Shakespeare Memorial Theater in Stratford burned down. And Noel Coward - what do you think - doesn't the Wooster and Jeeves stories remind us of Noel Coward's plays.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE5DC133FF932A25753C1A961948260

Reading a list of what happened in 1925 I found a few things that startled me - Art Deco style was launched by Paris Exposition des Art Décoratifs and so the movie clips of Bertie in the clean straight lined decorating style were dating the story to a look after 1925.

And surprise in 1925 Daylight saving Summer time , in the UK, is made permanent by parliament.
Lenin died in 1924 - Cooledge was President here in the states and Baldwin became Prime Minister once more.

In 1923 The Tomb of Tutankhamens was opened to the public and the big social event of the year was the Wedding of The Duke of York and Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon - the parents of the current Queen Elizabeth before anyone had a clue they would occupy Windsor Castle. Moving ahead Elizabeth is born in 1926.

In 1926 London's first traffic lights installed at Piccadilly Circus and 20,000 women march through London on an anti strike demonstration - Britains first General Strike supporting miners took place in 1926.

Here is a news photo of vehicles in a parade on a London street in 1926 during the strike - http://www.iln.org.uk/iln_years/year/images/1926/iln1926may15strike%20ermergency%20number.jpg

Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: lucky on March 17, 2009, 07:27:48 PM
Hello everybody

  I have never read any of these  stories and am looking forward to
reading them.  When I skimmed the first few pages I immediately thought of "Upstairs, Downstairs," which, with the exception of "I Claudius", was the best series  I have ever seen on TV.  The servant class, as the British called them, took on a supercilious air concerning the families for whom they worked.  It is interesting to note that before W.W. 1 one out of every four Englishmen/Englishwomen was "in service" as they called their profession.   
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Babi on March 18, 2009, 08:45:18 AM
Nothing like a couple of wars to put a crimp in the properous, mullti-servants lifestyle.  Not to mention giving the 'lower class' other options for making a living. 
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 18, 2009, 05:21:36 PM
Looks like War brings great change to the regular guy doesn't it - just as Babi you said, change to, as the Brits call the working class and as you identified them, the 'lower class'.

I remember being astonished how before WWII in the US only 5% of the population went on to Collage and after the war because of the G.I.Bill, we had an explosion of Collage students that continues to this day.

Lucky what a fun on-line name - looking forward to your take on the story -

But to our story Babi earlier, you said,
Quote
I think one of the things I like most about Bertie is that he quite cheerfully acknowledges Jeeves superior taste, intellect and sources of information.  Wouldn't dream of ‘putting him in his place', as so often happened with upper class and servants.

This is making me wonder - everything I have ever read describing the Wooster Jeeves stories labels them as Satire - reading up on Satire it says the reader must know and understand the social and political history of the time to catch the Satire.

Well I can see Wodehouse using witty dialogue that appears to us as an affected way of talking and is fun to hear and read.

In fact it reminds me of a bunch of teenage girls - that is how they cluck to each other commenting on the clothes and manners of other girls - and like a teenage girl, they are still dependent on their parents and so they are not carving out their future so much as obeying what is expected therefore, their little jabs at each other is all the battles they can participate which all reminds me of Bertie Wooster who acts dependent on Jeeves and even less like an independent guy carving his own financial future as compared to Bingo Little of the liniment manufacture is engaged in creating his successes.

After reading the difference between Wit, Satire, etc.  ]in a book I picked up called "Writing Humor"] I am wondering if this is a story that would fit better under the sub-title of a 'Comedy of Manners' - Like the American story, the "Philadelphia Story" - a great movie and the one that comes to mind was with Katherine Hepburn version - Hepburn gave an edge to the dialogue - Grace Kelly's version was almost too patrician.

All to say I am beginning to see Bertie in a new light - a man without a self-made future - a man who's every need is taken care of by either money, custom, and now Jeeves. The word Dilatant comes to mind - 
Quote
An otherwise boring word used artistically by Iggy Pop to reference people who make a bigger deal out of something than it really is, in order to demonize it.
 

I need to go back and read the difference between Bingo Little and Bertie Wooster – the difference between Bertie and Jeeves Wodehouse made it is easy for us to see.


Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 18, 2009, 05:41:52 PM
Oh how I wish I could write funny - but I have to own where I see funny going on all around me and can laugh at the incongruity of what is happening I do not think in funny - ah so... we all have our crosses to bare  ;)
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: waafer on March 18, 2009, 06:00:20 PM
Just found this site Jeeves in The Springtime.  It is a long time since I have read P.G.Wodehouse but I do remember I had lots of laughs.  So pleased it is online and will find time later to read on.  Off to aquafitness and then will continue with my reading.  Waafer :)
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 18, 2009, 06:27:24 PM
Waafer - glad you found us - Welcome - looking forward to your thoughts after  you have had a chance to settle in a bit -
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Babi on March 19, 2009, 08:51:30 AM
My son both thinks and writes in 'funny', which has made his letters over the years a treat to receive.  I tried to save them, but alas, they were apparently lost when I moved.  Now we correspond by e-mail, which seems to lend itself more to brevity than wit.   ;)
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: PatH on March 20, 2009, 07:51:05 PM
P. G. Wodehouse is a part of my childhood.  We had a lot of his books in the house, and, being a reading aloud type of family, we read a number of the short stories aloud.  I liked them, though I didn't totally understand them.

He was more important to my husband Bob.  At age 18, in WWII, Bob was drafted and sent to the Pacific.  He didn't have as bad a time as a lot of men--he was in a hospital unit and didn't actually have to shoot at people--but he definitely wasn't the army type and was pretty miserable.  In WWII, civilians could donate books to be shipped overseas to the fighting troops, and through this, Bob acquired a book of Wodehouse short stories.  They helped save his morale by reminding him of everything civilized and frivolous and totally unlike what  he was living through.  He remained a fan all his life.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 21, 2009, 04:37:21 AM
How much fun Babi to have a family member who can write funny - needless to say I am green with envy - although my one sister is good with dry humor.

Wow a life long love affair with Wodehouse - Pat there sure are enough of those stories to keep him busy with a smile - but it is the smiling part I am wondering about given the news of the day.

I wonder how many are not able to enjoy Bertie Wooster and his skill at witty dialogue because he is such the nar-do-well which is pushing buttons as we hear and read of the enormous sums of money some folks have taken as salaries and bonuses - like Bertie they are the architrave to the economic melt down as Bertie is to the story and both have such an attitude of entitlement that it is difficult in these times to see Bertie as a laughable character just as it is not funny what we are learning of the excessive lifestyles in Big Business.

I think Jeeves is the sympathetic character because he works and takes care of Bertie and Bingo Little seems to be another Bertie but then he isn't - sorta like Geitner and Summers - guys who are working it out but we know were part of the wall street gang not too long ago.

And so with all this going on around us I wonder how much it is affecting our ability to get a kick out of a character like Bertie Wooster. He is definitely not someone you can feel sorry nor identify with because his lifestyle is so different then ours. But I must say I sure like his ability to put a spin on a sentence like:

"In the Spring, Jeeves, a livelier iris gleams upon the burnished dove."

From Tennyson's Locksley Hall

In the Spring a fuller crimson comes upon the robin's breast;
In the Spring the wanton lapwing gets himself another crest;

In the Spring a livelier iris changes on the burnish'd dove;
In the Spring a young man's fancy lightly turns to thoughts of love.

I love the bits where Bertie is talking to himself and says things like:

"At this point Bingo fell into a species of trance, and only came out of it to wrap himself round the pie and macaroon."

And yes, there it is - Bertie is dependent on the Uncle for his allowance "You see, I'm pretty well dependent on the old boy. If he cut off my allowance, I should be very much in the soup." I still say he reminds me of teenage girl's chatter and competition.

Oh and it is Bingo Little's uncle who decides he can't do without his cook. I had that as the situation for Bertie's uncle.  Looks like I need another read to get this story straight in my head...
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 21, 2009, 04:45:05 AM
New question Saturday night and included will be a request for stories we should consider reading - as long as the story is on-line and is either humorous, witty or a satire like Saturday night live is Satire then we are a go-

Since Marg remembered the O'Henry story's name and most of us read it back in school let's do "The Ransom of Red Chief" in April - the suggestions this month we will vote on the end of this 10 day session which is Wednesday of next week and we will  be choosing a story for May. Each month we will use suggestions to choose a story that will be used two months later.

Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: PatH on March 21, 2009, 07:54:17 AM
It's Bingo Little who is living on an allowance from his uncle, and in love with a waitress.  It's Bingo's uncle who has the wonderful cook.  Bertie has no personal stake in the action except that he doesn't have the guts to turn down Bingo's pleas for help.  This is a common event in these stories; Bertie is always getting stuck in some ridiculous plan to get a friend out of trouble.

I didn't catch the Tennyson, but Wodehouse is full of amusing references.  In one story someone is described as heaving the sort of sigh Prometheus might have heaved when the vulture dropped in for lunch.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: PatH on March 21, 2009, 09:11:09 AM
So, why do I think Wodehouse is funny? Partly, it's the incongruous situation.  The man with the money and privilege is an ass, and his servant is the clever one who saves the situation.  Partly it's the sort of light-hearted flippant dialogue you quoted, Barbara.  And Wodehouse was a master of slapstick and situational comedy.  I read somewhere that he was a master of timing, and although I'm not capable of recognizing that, I bet it's true.  He is definitely poking fun at the British upper class way of life--a good target.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Babi on March 21, 2009, 09:53:08 AM
I, too, remember getting a lot of laughs from "The Ransom of Red Chief".  I look forward to reading it again.  I even have the good fortune to have the "Tales" of O'Heny on my bookshelf!
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 21, 2009, 06:39:43 PM
Looks like the Subscription Dance is still with us - at least it is alive and well in the Hudson Valley area of New  York
http://www.hudsonvalleycouncil.org/hvcdnce.html

And surprise to me Camberwell is part of London - I thought it was a community away from London
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camberwell
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 21, 2009, 06:44:56 PM
found the Clergyman's Throat with the suggested cures...

http://www.the-family-doctor.com/the-family-doctor/c/clergymans-throat.htm
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 21, 2009, 06:50:35 PM
The best fir the Soul's Awakening is this series of books written before 1925

Quote
In The Soul's Awakening, the fourth mystery drama, an enlightened entrepreneur appoints a scientist, a historian, and an artist to use their spiritual perceptions to transform his business into one that serves spiritual as well as practical needs. A long-standing colleague objects, and a series of conflicts and crises develops.
http://www.steinerbooks.org/detail.html?id=090469366x
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 21, 2009, 07:03:38 PM
OK I think I've got it Pat

Bingo is a chap from school - who is a romantic, collecting the photographs of actresses when they were in school - wears the red tie with horseshoes, is the nephew of Mortimer Little of Little Liniment and receives an allowance from the uncle; plays the horses and wins; tells the uncle Bertie penned the novels that sound like what today we would call Harlequin Novels while his usual read is the Sporting Times .

Mortimer Little, the uncle lives in No. 16, Pounceby Gardens retaining a cook Miss Watson.

The story never tells us where Bertie gets his money does it.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 21, 2009, 07:04:35 PM
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/shortstory/wodehouse2.jpg)
Jeeves in the Springtime
An early P.G.Wodehouse Short Story

"'tis the season when a young man's fancy turns to thoughts of love,"
and mauve shirts, ties, old school chums, roses, cooks, waitresses.
Bertie Wooster, his man Jeeves in London between the Wars.


Web-Book Jeeves In The Springtime (http://www.classicreader.com/book/3052/1/)

Stephen Fry on PG Wodehouse (http://www.pgwodehousebooks.com/fry.htm)
Sir Pelham Grenville Wodehouse (http://www.arcmanor.com/wodehouse.htm)

General Discussion for Humor, Wit & Satire in Short Stories (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=351.0)

Questions to Consider

Discussion Leader: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: PatH on March 21, 2009, 08:26:35 PM
Quote from: BarbStAubrey on March 21, 2009, 07:03:38 PM
The story never tells us where Bertie gets his money does it.
No, it doesn't, and I've forgotten, it's been so long, but I think he has some money of his own, but is always on the lookout for getting more.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Babi on March 22, 2009, 08:48:10 AM
 Maybe it once was, BARBARA.  I'm sure you've noticed, as cities expand, how once rural communities are taken in to become city neighborhoods.

  On the subject of Bingo's uncle, I found it difficult to imagine some one of the upper class marrying his cook, no matter how many romantic stories he read.
But then you reminded me that his money came from 'Little's Liniment', which suggested that while rich, he was probably not high society. His origins may have been not much higher than the cooks, which makes his proposal much more reasonable to me.  The cook, now, I suspect of more mercenary than romantic motives.  Uncle does not sound at all attractive.  I was concerned that Jeeves would be badly disappointed, but no...., this whole scheme was engineered to slip out of his commitment to the cook!  Tut, tut, Jeeves!
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: PatH on March 22, 2009, 10:09:41 AM
I wonder if the cook continued to spend so much time making wonderful meals after she married?
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Babi on March 23, 2009, 09:28:00 AM
If she didn't, she faced either an apoplectic husband or an ex-husband.  >:(
Those meals were his only reason for proposing! I can readily guess her motives for accepting.  Not cynical; just realistic.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 23, 2009, 10:14:00 AM
Hadn't thought of it from that angle Babi but I think you are on to something - when I've read that these stories are a satire of the class system poking fun at the upper class it never dawned on me the satire could also be poking at the working class -

The status quo would keep everyone in their place - but Wodehouse uses the Harlequin novel, associated with the less literate, as not only accepted by the uncle, who has made his fortune and who is clearly of the upper class with an education and taste for the finer things in life therefore, had not been a fan of the kind of book similar to daytime soap operas - but here these books give him the moral fortitude to make a huge right turn in making an acceptable marriage proposals within the class system...amazing

But more, as you suggest, is the cook pushing her luck so that she now becomes a member of the upper class with all the perks and that within 1920 traditions, Wodehouse is poking using satire on the working class's because they have the tumidity to hold the upper class hostage with their skills desired for the comfort of the upper class...?

Bingo is clearly smitten with his Mabel but then is Mortimer Little capable of being smitten or is the welfare of his body directing his top choices in life...

I am thinking what is missing here is any sign of a love interest - and that is why I think we hold suspect Miss Watson's intentions - Remembering how Princess Margaret was not able to marry the love of her life and seeing the Royals during our lifetime continue the tradition where a marriage partner was chosen with love a secondary reason for the marriage - I'm thinking this was probably emblematic of all the upper class - it is only in the past few years - really since the death of Diana, that we see any signs that maybe love will be higher on the list as the reason for marriage among the Royals who are only the visible example of the Upper Class.

So many that today we know as the Upper Class are among the group because the have accumulated a fortune where as I understand it - the Upper Class is really those who have Pedigree. There are so many novel from the Nineteenth Century based in the character's values and station in life dependent on money - marriage seemed to be as much a musical chairs for prestige and money than about love with pedigree holding the trump card - I am thinking that this new fangled mixing of the classes that started after WWI is what Wodehouse could be ridiculing or at least, like the writers of the Archie Bunker Show, giving his readers the opportunity to question what is acceptable.

What to me is curious - and a change of subject - is; why does Wodehouse call this book Jeeves in the Springtime when the story is clearly told by Bertie - is it because of the twist at the end - I am scratching my head over this and if you have any idea please help clear the mystery.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: PatH on March 23, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
Quote from: BarbStAubrey on March 23, 2009, 10:14:00 AM
What to me is curious - and a change of subject - is; why does Wodehouse call this book Jeeves in the Springtime when the story is clearly told by Bertie - is it because of the twist at the end - I am scratching my head over this and if you have any idea please help clear the mystery.

You already said why, Barbara, it is the twist at the end:

"In the Spring a livelier iris changes on the burnish'd dove;
In the Spring a young man's fancy lightly turns to thoughts of love."

and Jeeves is in love.  Though almost nobody gets married in Wodehouse.  They fall violently but temporarily in love, like Bingo, or they are trying to escape the clutches of some designing woman.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 23, 2009, 03:10:25 PM
aha -  yes, thanks - sometimes as the saying goes we cannot see the Forest for the Trees.

The more I think of Babi's observation the more I am wondering if the whole concept of a Cook marrying "upstairs" is so outrageous that it was a farce that would have been read with gales of laughter. As an American not being as class conscious and today seeing the world through so called 'Democratic' eyes it takes a bit of work to get the joke. Is this like the old polish jokes and other jokes that feature the impossible that everyone accepts so that the plot is one big whoha...?

I think we do see class differences between levels of wealth but not pedigree and so where it can happen - there are lots of movies and TV shows showing the possibility - Audrey Hepburn and Humphrey Bogart easily comes to mind -  mostly we see the improbable match based on a money grabbing scheme.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: Babi on March 24, 2009, 08:53:27 AM
Quote
"marriage seemed to be as much a musical chairs for prestige and money than about love with pedigree holding the trump card."

True, Barb. And how many times have we read of an impoverished noble family
restoring their fortunes by marrying off the titled heir to a wealthy heiress of a
lower class family. Both families are thrilled; the bride and groom possibly
less so.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 24, 2009, 01:07:33 PM
Well who would have thought - I never expected to actually learn something by reading this story and for me I have an understanding of class distinction that I only skirted during earlier reads. I still get a kick out of the language and associations Bertie makes with the behavior of all the other characters.

OK for anyone who is lurking and of course from both of you Babi and Pat do you have any suggestions for future reads. 

Next month for sure we will go ahead with Marj's suggestion and actually do The Ransom of Red Chief by O'Henry.

Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BarbStAubrey on March 25, 2009, 05:22:20 PM
Today is the last day for any final thoughts on Bertie Wooster and Jeeves -

The suggestions for future reads is taking place in the ongoing discussion Humor, Wit and Satire Short Stories.

Thanks folks for peeking in - till next month April 15...
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: PatH on March 25, 2009, 06:40:19 PM
I'm happy to have been reminded of the Jeeves stories I read so happily, and have dug out a book of them from downstairs to read more.  And I've learned six different ways to tie a necktie, all of them looking alike when finished.  I'm just sorry we didn't meet the predatory Roberta Wickham or Bertie's formidable Aunt Agatha.
Title: Re: Jeeves in the Springtime ~ P. G. Wodehouse
Post by: BooksAdmin on March 27, 2009, 05:03:49 PM
This discussion is now completed. Thank you for participating. It will be archived soon.