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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
Please post below if you can join us on APRIL 15!
The Moonstone
by Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15 -- OPENING DAY
Related Links::
Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg)
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DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) |
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Welcome to The Moonstone, everyone. I’m glad it got chosen; I love this book, even have to get a new copy for the discussion because my old one is falling apart. It’s amusing, charming, and a good yarn, with a few social issues lurking in the background.
We won’t start until April 15th, which will give everyone time to get the book, get started, and even do their income tax. It should be easy to find. It’s online, available for Kindle, Dover has a cheap paperback, and libraries should have it. My library system has 26 copies, only 3 of them checked out.
Come in and say hi, tell us if you’ll join in.
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I'll be here.
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That's great, Frybabe! Welcome.
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I'm so excited that we're going to be discussing one of my favorite books. Even if you're not a mystery fan, there's something in here for everyone: humor, romance, social commentary, women's issues, even a bit of philosophy and science.
Welcome, Frybabe!
The rest of you, join us. You won't be sorry!
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was this a 1930s movie - the plot reminds me of something I saw as a kid
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I wouldn't be at all surprised, Barb - Wilkie Collins' novels were/are so easily adapted to stage and film. I'm remembering our discussion years ago of his Woman in White. A few years ago it was playing on the London stage and I'm sure there have been several film adaptations.
So, The Moonstone is considered the first detective mystery novel. Learned something new. I associated Poe with this - but I guess he wrote the first mystery novella - and so the honor goes to Wilkie. If Poe had written just a few more chapters...
Oh, I came in to say I wouldn't want to miss this one. I'm in!
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WELCOME Barb and JoanP. It's great to have you with us.
Yes, Barb, turns out there was a 1934 movie--here's the link toIMDB. They seem to have messed with the plot a fair bit.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0025515/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_2 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0025515/?ref_=fn_tt_tt_2)
It's been done a number of times--starting with a 1903 short silent film. There are several TV series, and a couple more movies.
JoanP, people quibble over what is the first detective mystery novel, but The Moonstone is the front-runner.
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Barb's comment reminds me of something important. This is a mystery story, and some of us haven't read it, so those of us who have, or who quickly finish it, are going to have to be very careful not to give anything away. It would be a shame to spoil the surprises for anyone.
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You just know that I'm going to try to get to the bottom of the Poe vs Collins thoughts on who invented the detective novel. So far, from checking out Wikipedia, that Poe predated Collins. Poe, according to Wiki, is credited with inventing the "detective fiction genre", while it says that The Moonstone is "considered a precursor to detective fiction", and "Viewed by many to represent the advent of the detective story within the tradition of the English novel."
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WELCOME BARB AND JOANP!
It looks like Poe is older, but he wrote short stories. Collins wrote a novel. And he predates the Dickens novel that we have already read, as well as Sherlock holmes.
Do I have this right?
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Note: kindle has the book for free. They also have a works of Wilkie collins for $1.99. I invested that huge sum, but I can't find an interactive table of contents. So I don't recommend it.
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I will be happy to join you. Looking forward to reading this book with you and hearing all your erudite opinions.
Mostly glad that this is not a too serious novel and there will be a light touch to our discussion.
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Yes, JoanK, you are right. I am not sure to which Dickens book you are referring, The Mystery of Edwin Drood most likely since that was in the works when he died in 1870. The Moonstone was published in 1868. Dickens and Collins were pretty close to being life long friends. They collaborated on several endeavors, Dickens acting company performed some of Collins' plays, and published a number of Collins stories in his journals. It wouldn't surprise me if they influenced each other in their writings.
I never thought of any of Poe's works as detective fiction, but after looking into it, I discovered that never read any of his C. Auguste Dupin detective stories, including The Murders in the Rue Morgue. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle cited Poe's detective stories as "a root from which a whole literature has developed.... Where was the detective story until Poe breathed the breath of life into it?" Poe's influence was such that the Edgar Awards is named after him. His only full length novel was a work of early science fiction (also a surprise to me).
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What interesting information about Poe and Collins and their contributions to "detective" fiction. I'm looking forward to talking about The Moonstone with all of you.
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JudeS and Marcie, it's good to have you on board. We're getting a nice lively bunch here.
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Edwin Drood, which we read here, was written after The Moonstone, but Bleak House, which we read here recently, was written in 1853. Bleak House contains a complete murder mystery with a detective (Inspector Bucket), but it's a subplot, making up only a fraction of the book. So you can make the first by your definition: detective story, detective novel, purely a detective novel (and nothing else). In Bleak House, Inspector Bucket's wife plays a significant role in solving the murder.
Poe's novel, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket is more fantasy than sci fi, and very strange indeed. I haven't read it, but it's referred to in H. P. Lovecraft's At The Mountains of Madness; the strange cry of Poe's apparition is used as the final touch of horror. It didn't work for me, most of Lovecraft's horror doesn't.
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Yeah, JUDE and MARCIE. This should be a great discussion!
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I will follow the discussion. Can't guarantee I'll post anything. I did get the free Kindle version.
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It's good to have you with us, Tomereader. Say hi to us occasionally so we know you're still there.
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Hello everyone,
This is my first post and my first day on this site.
I would love to join in the April/May discussion of Moonstone. I downloaded my copy from Gutenberg Project several months ago. Thank you for the invite.
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Welcome, Scottieluvr.
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Welcome, Scottieluver. It's great to have a new friend here. Do you want us to call you Scottieluvr or Pamela?
Since this is your first discussion, here's how it works: this is the pre-discussion, where we sign up, and talk about background stuff if we feel like it. It gives everyone time to get hold of the book and start reading. We'll get down to the actual discussion on April 15. We divide the book up into sections and talk about one section a week; a schedule will be posted. We try not to talk about anything ahead of schedule, but can go back if we want.
Have you read The Moonstone before? If not, I recommend not reading the whole book ahead of time. It can be fun to share your reaction as you read it for the first time. Also, this is a mystery, with a lot of plot twists and turns, and it's harder than you would think not to give anything away. No surprises for me; I've read the book at least four times.
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Welcome Scottieluver! This is getting exciting - the more the merrier, don't you think? Almost as exciting as gathering for a Dickens' novel. I always associate Wilkie with Dickens - Dickens was a mentor of a kind, wasn't he? DIckens published The Moonstone in installments in his magazine, "All the Year Round." One of the Collins' family, was it Wilkie's younger brother - married DIckens' youngest daughter. That makes them family - though I don't think CD was happy about this arrangement.
Tomereader, I intend to read the chapters as if they are weekly installments - and wait breathlessly for the next as Collins' readers did! I'm going to admit that the opening installment in which we learn the history of the moonstone can be wordy, but as PatH says - the information is important and the story really picks up after that when the time period changes. You'll be glad to know the magazine lost no subrcribers...we hope you stay with us!
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Welcome Scottieluver! So glad you found us -
I too downloaded the free copy available on Kindle - I remember reading this years and years ago - maybe as many as 50 - golly I cannot believe I am writing that number and still I would not be a young woman 50 years ago - sheesh - but like many reads from earlier in my life, times have changed and my values have changed so it will be an interesting re-read of a nineteenth century story.
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Welcome, Scottieluver. This should be a great "first" discussion with us. We've got a good group to talk about The Moonstone. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
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WELCOME, WELCOME SCOTTYLUVER! Pull up a chair. What kind of books do you like (or is that like asking me what kind of chocolate do you like?)
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WOW! I have a lot of catching up to do here… ;D
JudeS: Hello!
Tomereader1: Hello!
Marcie: Hello!
Frybabe: Hello! Fascinating Wiki information you shared. So it confirms that Poe is the “Father of Detective Fiction” as a genre, while Collins is Father of Detective Fiction Novels – again fascinating. And your additional trivia is enlightening too. I never knew the Edgar Awards were named after him.
PatH: Hello! Oh, call me anything, Pamela or Scottieluvr. Just don’t call me late for this discussion. ;D Thank you for the summary of how things are done, I haven’t searched the sight yet to learn all the inner workings here. Waiting until April 15th to begin the read and discussion allows me to clear time on my plate for this commitment.
I’ve not read the book yet, why discovering your club’s choosing it for discussion attracted me. The only thing I do know about the book is: (1) it’s a classic and (2) its touted as the 1st written murder mystery. Loved the film noir you provided too, I was raised on 1930-50’s movies. Love ‘em.
JoanP: Hello! That was a nice piece of trivia you shared: Charles Dickens and Wilkie Collins related through a family marriage. Also Charles Dickens published Collins’ story in his newspaper, right?
BarbStAubrey: Hello! I’ve never indulged in reading classic writings until now. Maybe associated to my turning 50 years old last September? ;D
JoanK: Hello! :D I enjoy most genres, but favor Mystery Noir, Steampunk, Historical Romance and everything with Humor. However, I love discovering new authors the most. BTW, I love dark chocolate, but will choose theater popcorn over chocolate any day. :D
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Have the book and started reading. Finally broke down and bought a Kindle -- lots of free classics so list of "to read" is growing substantially.
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Yes, but your TBR pile isn't getting physically higher.
Welcome, Kidsal, it's good to have you here. If you can manage it, only read about 1/5 of the book now, keep up the suspense as we go along.
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How about popcorn dipped in chocolate?
Which reminds me, we haven't chosen a snack to eat while we sit around and read. What do the English eat for tea in India?
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Confusingly, the Mystery Timeline says that the mystery story as we know it didn't emerge until Poe, but the Moonstone "is considered by some to be the first true English detective novel." We seem to be bogged down in some terminology distinction here. Or maybe we've stepped into a turf war ( the Poe-ians versus the Collinites at 10 paces!) Shall we join in or sit comfortably on the sidelines.
http://www.mysterynet.com/timeline/history-of-mystery/
Interesting that among early mystery writers, they also list Cicero, the Roman orator. He didn't write mysteries, but point to his detective-like arguements in some cases. In one case, he showed that the defendent had been framed by relatives who wanted to inherit his wealth.They say "Some say that in these cases and others like them lie the true beginnings of the public's unending fascination with mystery and crime."
A stretch. but it shows that detecting is timeless.
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How about popcorn dipped in chocolate?
Which reminds me, we haven't chosen a snack to eat while we sit around and read. What do the English eat for tea in India?
Scones and Earl Grey tea?
As for chocolate covered popcorn? Salty and sweet combinations are delicious... ;D
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Have the book and started reading. Finally broke down and bought a Kindle -- lots of free classics so list of "to read" is growing substantially.
Hello! Glad to have you join the group. The more the merrier, I like to think. ;D
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Confusingly, th Mystery Timeline says that the mystery story as we know it didn't emerge until Poe, but "the moonstone is considered the first detective novel.
http://www.mysterynet.com/timeline/history-of-mystery/
Interesting that among early mystery writer, they also list Cicero, the Roman orator. He didn't write mysteries, but they say that "
I love that web site you've cited; its bookmarked on all my computers. That site also introduced, to me, a female mystery writer of the 40-50's, Craig Rice. I'm not ready to buy any of her works because I haven't gotten to the library to investigate this new author further. Sorry a bit off topic... ;D but I do find the web site valuable in information.
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Pamela: you came in while I was editing my post, trying to get the quotes right, which is why it cuts off like that.
Craig Rice wrote a mytery series with children as the detectives, which my sister and I gobbled up as children. I wonder what I would think of it now? Come on over to "the Mystery Corner" and discuss it.
http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=807.4960
By the way, this is a new site, so there aren't many posts. If you go into an existing site, don't think you have to read all the old posts or you'll never get through it. Just read the last couple and jump in!
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Pamela, before we start saying things that confuse you, I should warn you that JoanK and I are sisters (twins in fact) so when one of us says "my sister" they mean the other.
The Craig Rice book we really liked was "Home Sweet Homicide", which involved three siblings, the oldest about thirteen, solving a mystery that involved their mother. I have no idea what i would think of it now.
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...( the Poe-ians versus the Collinites at 10 paces!) ...
:D Seems where people gather causes must be taken up, one side against another. Guess it makes life [i.e., living] more interesting. ;D
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Pamela, before we start saying things that confuse you, I should warn you that JoanK and I are sisters (twins in fact) so when one of us says "my sister" they mean the other.
I'm a twin as well, she's five minutes older. When we were younger who was oldest mattered...bet it doesn't now! *ROFLOL*
The Craig Rice book we really liked was "Home Sweet Homicide", which involved three siblings, the oldest about thirteen, solving a mystery that involved their mother. I have no idea what i would think of it now.
I've never read this author's work... looking forward to the experience. ;D
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Oh, good, a fellow twin. JoanK is an hour and 45 minutes older than I, and we made a big deal of it in a joking way, but it never really mattered. Joan is the more formidable intellectual presence, and I am the more practical one.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
Please post below if you can join us on APRIL 15!
The Moonstone
by Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15 -- OPENING DAY
Related Links::
Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg)
|
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Oh, good, a fellow twin. JoanK is an hour and 45 minutes older than I, and we made a big deal of it in a joking way, but it never really mattered. Joan is the more formidable intellectual presence, and I am the more practical one.
Being older was very important to my sister. :D
In personality my sister and I are like day and night. In our youth she was all about having fun, I was all about being responsible. As we reached our half century mark (2012), she's all about responsibility and now I'm having fun. |
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Of course it's important! I learned a lot in that hour and 45 minutes. Pat is still trying to catch up! :D
We are a lot alike in some ways, and opposites in others. Do you find that when one of you goes to one extreme, the other tends to go to the opposite?
I suspect we'd be very disappointed in Home sweet Homicide if we read it now. Some books age well, others not.
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Of course it's important! I learned a lot in that hour and 45 minutes. Pat is still trying to catch up! :D
*ROFLOL* Of course... Pat will always be "trying to catch up", like me with my sister. :D
We are a lot alike in some ways, and opposites in others. Do you find that when one of you goes to one extreme, the other tends to go to the opposite?
Yes regarding extremes, like I mentioned about fun and responsibility. ;D We different, extreme opposites, regarding politics, social reform, child rearing, work ethics... the list is long. What about you and Pat?
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Pamela - maybe you can bring your twin to join us - wouldn't that be a trip!
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg)
The reason I copied the book cover - Look at Wilkie's description of his novel that he's selected for the cover of his book. - He's not calling it "The Moonstone, a Mystery" - he's calling it "A Romance.".... Do you suppose that's how he sees this novel? Do you think he would be surprised at our discussion of "the first mystery detective novel?"
So, we,re getting a two-fer - a mystery AND a romance! Like Dickens' Edwin Drood!
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"So, we,re getting a two-fer - a mystery AND a romance! Like Dickens' Edwin Drood!"
And the tradition continues. Many modern mystery story writers start out as romance writers, then move over into mysteries, but always provide a romance (Janet Evanovitch is a popular example).
Actually, (and this may be more than you want to know) there are subgenres in mysteries, and the ones called "cozies" (think Agatha Christie) usually have a romance in them. Collins is perhaps the first "cozy". They aren't as dark as other mysteries, and are "cozy" in that you get to know and like the characters, feel you could settle down with a cozy cup of tea with them after the murderer has been hauled away. They are often funny and light, as opposed to the "psychologicals" (think "Girl with the Dragon Tatoo") which are full of pain and angst.
There are other genres, too: procedurals, tough guys (or gals) etc. and other ways of classifying them, but enough of that.
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The reason I copied the book cover - Look at Wilkie's description of his novel that he's selected for the cover of his book. - He's not calling it "The Moonstone, a Mystery" - he's calling it "A Romance.".... Do you suppose that's how he sees this novel? Do you think he would be surprised at our discussion of "the first mystery detective novel?"
So, we,re getting a two-fer - a mystery AND a romance! Like Dickens' Edwin Drood!
Yes, I think he would be surprised at his work labeled “as the first mystery novel”. I’ve read where many authors wrote in one genre but their works were classified in another. And of course examples escape me – DARN! Still I adore romance with my mysteries…
And the tradition continues. Many modern mystery story writers start out as romance writers, then move over into mysteries, but always provide a romance (Janet Evanovitch is a popular example).
Actually, (and this may be more than you want to know) there are subgenres in mysteries, and the ones called "cozies" (think Agatha Christie) usually have a romance in them. Collins is perhaps the first "cozy". They aren't as dark as other mysteries, and are "cozy" in that you get to know and like the characters, feel you could settle down with a cozy cup of tea with them after the murderer has been hauled away. They are often funny and light, as opposed to the "psychologicals" (think "Girl with the Dragon Tatoo") which are full of pain and angst.
There are other genres, too: procedurals, tough guys (or gals) etc. and other ways of classifying them, but enough of that.
I love Janet Evanovich’s “Stephanie Plum” novels. I never tire of them. Although I’ve read some abhor them…well, books are like garage sales, “One [wo]man’s junk is another [wo]man’s treasure.” :D
I gravitate more towards the cozies over legal procedurals or psychological thrillers. But! I do get a craving for something meatier, deeper, and tangible; every now and again procedurals and psycho books grace my shelves.
I am just discovering the 1950’s mysteries; stylized like Mickey Spilane’s Mike Hammer or Sam Spade by Dashiell Hammett.
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Curious, will we be using a book guide with our BOTM read?
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Curious, will we be using a book guide with our BOTM read?
No, it's all do it yourself here. The way it usually goes is: the discussion leaders (here JoanK and I are it) set the schedule, dividing the book up into chunks, and think up some questions for each chunk to get things going. We discuss one chunk at a time. Sometimes the questions shape the discussion, sometimes it looks like nobody even reads them, and everywhere in between. Of course anyone can look up book guides and get ideas from them. The system seems to work well. We all come up with ideas, and it's amazing how much you can get out of a book when you chew it over for a month or so. Sometimes we get off on weird side tracks; when we read the Odyssey, Barb and I had a lengthy shipbuilding discussion about different kinds of keels, and what kind of pitch the Greeks sealed their ships with.
Something else to notice: did you notice that your post at the top of this page now includes a heading with picture, schedule, etc? There is a new page every 40 posts, and we try to get in to make the 40th post so we can put in a heading. If we miss, we insert the heading into the 40th post, but the post itself is intact after the heading. This is the ONLY way anyone will ever mess with your posts. If I ever tried to do anything else to your posts I would get fired instantly.
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started to read last night - have the kindle version - I was amazed after about 20 minutes of reading how enraptured I was not only in the story but the joy I was feeling reading something well written - many books today have a great or unique story line but the reading does not flow - this is a wonderful read and I have not taken time yet to figure out why but you cannot imagine stopping - its what we euphemistically call a 'page turner' and for a mystery that is crucial plus a mystery so well written - I love the cozies but the writing cannot half way compare.
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Curious, will we be using a book guide with our BOTM read?
No, it's all do it yourself here….Sometimes we get off on weird side tracks; when we read the Odyssey, Barb and I had a lengthy shipbuilding discussion about different kinds of keels, and what kind of pitch the Greeks sealed their ships with.
Sounds wonderful to me. Winging-it or structured, I’m adaptable. *S*
Something else to notice: did you notice that your post at the top of this page now includes a heading with picture, schedule, etc?…This is the ONLY way anyone will ever mess with your posts. If I ever tried to do anything else to your posts I would get fired instantly.
Until you pointed it out, I hadn’t noticed. But thank you for the heads up. *S*
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BARBARA - like you I have a copy from Kindle and have started to read. What a joy to read a book that is so well written-punctuation all in the right places. I will follow the discussion starting on the 15th. It has been interesting to read bits about the author, as I had never even heard his name before.
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Here is the website of all things Wilkie Collins - the only other book I knew of that he wrote was 'The Woman in White' but it appears there were many other books and evidently his letters are an important part of his canon of writing.
http://www.wilkiecollins.com/
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Looks like the Victorian Web lists all of his novels
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/collins/works1.html.
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WELCOME, WELCOME WAAFER!! Pull up a chair and have some tea and scones.
We aren't starting til April 15th to give everyone a chance to do their income tax (and me a chance to recover from a rotten cold). So don't get carried away and read the whole thing. We'll put up the reading schedule later.
Barb: I had no idea he wrote so much! And several of the novels are in three volumes!!!?!!!.
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Hi Scottie-Pam
Please tell me what you meant by "steampunk" which you listed as a genre you enjoy reading.
The word elicited for me Thomas the Steam Engine and young people with strange haircuts.
Perhaps the punks are traveling on the train?
Perhaps the punks are "steaming" i.e. angry?
Perhaps the steam refers to the hot love the punks are having?
I will stop here and await your answer ,which, I am sure, will make more sense than my endless imaginings.
New people bring their own worlds to us so welcome and continue to surprise us.
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Wilkie Collins changed his Preface in the later editions of this novel. I'm not talking about the Prologue to the novel... but the "Author's Preface." I'm curious to know if the edition you are reading contains the two prefaces. My copy has the Preface to the 1868 edition, as well as the Preface to the1871 edition three years later.
Without giving anything away of the story, I noticed that Wilkie Collins suffered from gout - just as Charles Dickens did. Wasn't this a strange coincidence? Makes you wonder how widespread rheumatic gout was at this time in England... I thought Dickens died from gout affecting his foot - but was it rheumatic gout? Do you know anything about rheumatic gout?
Waafer-Junee, it's great to have you join us again - all the way from Australia. Have you finished Hare with Amber Eyes? Love those posts from different time zones!
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JOANP
Yes I have finished The Hare With the Amber Eyes and really enjoyed that book specially after reading all the extra bits I read in here. It was a great story. I will be reading and following the discussion from the 15th. Thanks Joan.
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Hi Scottie-Pam
Please tell me what you meant by "steampunk" which you listed as a genre you enjoy reading.
The word elicited for me Thomas the Steam Engine and young people with strange haircuts. Perhaps the punks are traveling on the train? Perhaps the punks are "steaming" i.e. angry? Perhaps the steam refers to the hot love the punks are having? I will stop here and await your answer ,which, I am sure, will make more sense than my endless imaginings. New people bring their own worlds to us so welcome and continue to surprise us.
Hello JudeS,
Well, yes, they can have strange haircuts, travel on trains, and can be angry, and erotic passion is always welcomed. :D However, I think the real answer you search is posted on the Science Fiction board: http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=81.msg187939#msg187939 (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=81.msg187939#msg187939)
But here’s a very generalized summary of what Steampunk is, from that discussion: “In summary, again my humble viewpoint, Steampunk is alternative history combined with science fiction, fantasy and/or western genres. It possesses no walls, as vampires, zombies, fairies, cowboys, military elements sow many beloved stories on the internet and in books stores (mortar and cyber).” ;D
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Here is the website of all things Wilkie Collins - the only other book I knew of that he wrote was 'The Woman in White' but it appears there were many other books and evidently his letters are an important part of his canon of writing. http://www.wilkiecollins.com/
Thank you for sharing the link, BarbStAubrey. I downloaded, “The Woman in White” from Project Gutenberg a while ago: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/583 (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/583).
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BARBARA - like you I have a copy from Kindle and have started to read. What a joy to read a book that is so well written-punctuation all in the right places. I will follow the discussion starting on the 15th. It has been interesting to read bits about the author, as I had never even heard his name before.
Welcome waafer, so glad to meet you. ;D
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Wilkie Collins changed his Preface in the later editions of this novel. I'm not talking about the Prologue to the novel... but the "Author's Preface." I'm curious to know if the edition you are reading contains the two prefaces. My copy has the Preface to the 1868 edition, as well as the Preface to the1871 edition three years later.
No, mine doesn’t have a preface. But then mine is a copy from Project Gutenberg.
[…] but was it rheumatic gout? Do you know anything about rheumatic gout?
A form of rheumatic arthritis: build up of uric acid in the joints, particularly one joint. It’s very painful. This site has an interesting definition: http://www.lilyblog.com/rheumatic-gout-arthritis.html (http://www.lilyblog.com/rheumatic-gout-arthritis.html)
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Hmmmm. gout seems to be a constant theme in British novels, usually involving older men who drink too much port. the Mayo clinic agrees with that stereotype: more men than women get it, and drinking too much wine increases risk. It's a little different from the rheumatic gout discussed above: sudden attacks of great pain: especially in the big toe.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gout/DS00090
You don't here much about it now, presumably because it's treatable. the British upper-class diet may have contributed to it.
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For those who have started to read the book: we will divide the book into four or five chunks for discussion. For a book like this, with plot twists and turns, it's more fun if you don't read ahead. It's also difficult with this book. It sucks you in.
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PatH how many pages for the first week so we do not over read...
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We haven't decided yet.
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In Collins' Preface to the 1871 edition, he talks about how painfully afflicted he was by the gout - and writes that he only continued writing the story because Dickens had already begun to publish it in weekly installments. He felt he couldn't let his readers down. BUT he was so weak, in such pain and confined to bed, that he was unable to visit his ill mother before she died. I think I'll be aware of the suffering author while reading his story.
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PatH how many pages for the first week so we do not over read...
It's hard to go by pages, since we all have different editions, some as ebooks. But the narrative is broken into small sections with Roman numerals. I'm guessing these are the weekly installments, so we probably all have them. Go through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative. That's 1/5 of the way (84 pages of 412 in my book), and a good place to break the narrative. It ends with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little. How, and with what result, you shall presently see."
We will go at least that far, farther if we can find a good break.
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JoanP, I have both prefaces too. Collins credits the necessity of rallying from his pain enough to write the next installment, not let his readers down, with saving his life. I can't imagine starting to publish weekly installments of a book you hadn't yet finished, maybe didn't even know how it was going to end. No leeway for writer's block for sure.
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But on the upside, the author could assess his readers' reactions to a previous installment and adjust the plot accordingly in later installments... ;)
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JoanP, I have both prefaces too. Collins credits the necessity of rallying from his pain enough to write the next installment, not let his readers down, with saving his life. I can't imagine starting to publish weekly installments of a book you hadn't yet finished, maybe didn't even know how it was going to end. No leeway for writer's block for sure.
Fascinating background history on this author, thank you. :)
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Odd! I don't see a preface to my copy. I'll have to see if I can find it. I forget which site I downloaded mine from.
In the meantime, the prologue has me hooked already.
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I love my kindle, but today I borrowed a hard copy from the library. It has the prefaces, and it's going to be a lot easier to look through and devide the book into chunks.
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My copy (free on Kindle) has the prefaces at the beginning. I have started. Are we going to start with 1-12?
Sally
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I aim to join this discussion and hopefully have something to post. I grew up with Nancy Drew and learned to love mysteries ever since. I start at the beginning and read until the end; but, if I remember correctly, the mother in End of Your Life (I read this book when it first came out) said she always started at the end because it gave her a better understanding of the book as a whole - I think there is something to that. I always have several books going at the same time; always there is a mystery book among them. To me a mystery is a story where there is a crime needed to be solved and a detective to solve it. I don't think romance should be left out but torrid sex scenes vividly described spoil a "fun" read. Perhaps then that is why I like British mystery writers because they tend to be more reserved in describing relationships; rather they lean toward the philosophical and psychological implications of human nature that I can identify with or refute. To me all fiction books are mysteries in the since that there is a conflict of interests that need to be resolved. However in a mystery the focus should be on what crime was committed and who done it; whereas, in a romance the focus should be on what are the conflicts that creep into relationships and how are they resolved.
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Welcome, Sally. It's good to see you here. I'll post the starting schedule below very shortly.
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Donnie, it's good to meet you here. This book should be just what you want in a mystery. It's best described as a mystery with a love interest. It's more mystery than romance: crime, detective, etc, but the love interest is important in the plot too. I promise you there are no torrid sex scenes. In fact, no sex scenes. After all, this is Victorian England.
I recommend not reading ahead. It makes for a better discussion.
I'll post the starting schedule below.
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Here's the start of the schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little. How, and with what result, you shall presently see."
April 21-?: The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to the end of the first period, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative.
In my 412 page book, these are each 84 pages.
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SALAN: sounds like you found a kindle version that I missed. I notices there was more than one. I'll have to check it out.
DONNIE: WELCOME WELCOME. Do join us in the Mystery Corner as well.
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Glad to see a new face among us - welcome Donnie - what a fun discussion this is gong to be with a well written book and a couple of new participants who are pulling up their chair and joining us - have you decided on your snack or drink while reading and discussing with us -
Since this is set in Victoria England for me it just must be Tea - I still have some of Whittard's Old English Fruit flavored tea in my cabinet and as much as I do not need a nibble I know I will break down - but I am determined to stay away from the cookies and muffins or even scones that I can easily gobble up without realizing it. The berries are prolific in the market - that's what I need to do pickup a few boxes of berries as my snack while reading this classic by Collins.
I am surprised to learn this was written in 1859 - I read it so long ago that I have forgotten the plot but when I did read it I imagined it taking place closer to the twentieth century - more like 1889 - this is actually before our Civil War. I just never associated Collins with Dickinson and yet we learn they were both writing in London at the same time.
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I aim to join this discussion and hopefully have something to post. I grew up with Nancy Drew and learned to love mysteries ever since. I start at the beginning and read until the end; but, if I remember correctly, the mother in End of Your Life (I read this book when it first came out) said she always started at the end because it gave her a better understanding of the book as a whole - I think there is something to that. [...]
Welcome Donnie! Looking forward to your joining the disccussion(s) :)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little. How, and with what result, you shall presently see."
April 21-?: The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative.
Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg) |
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For Your Consideration
April 15-21: Through section XI
1. What function does Betteredge's long introduction serve? How would you describe the mood that he sets? What point is Collins making with his use of Robinson Crusoe?
2. What recent event of that time would have made the three Indians particularly sinister to Collins' readers?
3. Is "the Shivering Sands" a real place? Do you know any such place?
4. What would you say is the main characteristic of each of the characters?
5. Do you find Betteredge racist? Sexist? Why, or why not?
6. Do you have any theories as to how the jewels were stolen? (No fair telling, if you've read the book!)
7. Why do you think Rachel is acting so strangely after the robbery?
8. What ground did Franklin and Godfrey have for their opposite opinions of the police's competence? What does this tell us about their character?
9. What kind of police organization existed at the time?
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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Welcome, Donnie. I'm glad you'll be with us to talk about The Moonstone.
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Thank You all for the warm welcome. One time I heard a person say she (me) would rather read than eat. Not true as I did both at the same time. I ended up overfed and I like to think well read. Now I just grab a cup of coffe & read until I have sipped to the bottom of the cup at which time my reading session is over. Now that I am eating and drinking to maintain my health (recovering from the after effects of bilateral mastectomy and radiation), I have at least a daily cup of green tea which I have read many times is good for you. I have the Kindle version of Moonstone and just started reading it. Whoever said you can't help getting drawn in is right. I am reading more than was suggested but I am going to stick to my way of reading which is read from beginning to end. I like to read a good book more than once knowing that I always miss something the first time around. I am a slow reader and if I just stuck to the schedule, I wouldn't be able to get through it twice.
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Thank You all for the warm welcome. One time I heard a person say she (me) would rather read than eat. Not true as I did both at the same time. I ended up overfed and I like to think well read. Now I just grab a cup of coffe & read until I have sipped to the bottom of the cup at which time my reading session is over. Now that I am eating and drinking to maintain my health (recovering from the after effects of bilateral mastectomy and radiation), I have at least a daily cup of green tea which I have read many times is good for you. I have the Kindle version of Moonstone and just started reading it. Whoever said you can't help getting drawn in is right. I am reading more than was suggested but I am going to stick to my way of reading which is read from beginning to end. I like to read a good book more than once knowing that I always miss something the first time around. I am a slow reader and if I just stuck to the schedule, I wouldn't be able to get through it twice.
I too enjoy eating, drinking and reading simultaneously. I have to be carefully what I eat because mindless nibbling, because I’m absorbed by the book, leads to overindulgence. ;D So carrots, celery, premade peanut butter and saltines work well in keeping me from expanding. ;)
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We've been away for the last four days celebrating spring, a birthday, and many many soccer games with four grandchildren. I missed your posts, Donnie! So glad you can join us.
I'm caught up - to Chapter XII, but am heeding Pat's warning about reading ahead. When reading a mystery, it's too too hard to remember how far everyone else has read and not let slip something crucial to the plot. Don't want to be a spoiler - and if you're like me, it's hard to keep quiet for the rest of the discussion if you know what's happened in later chapters...
One more week and we'll get started! Can't wait!
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I can't wait either. Did everyone notice we put the first two weeks schedule in the heading. As always, we can adjust it later if it proves too fast or too slow.
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I have become so busy reading up on Collins - he sure had an interesting if not messy love and subsequent family life with two essentially mistresses not marrying either.
The other interest has been to find out what was happening on the international front - when we read the last Dickens novel we really got into the domestic concerns and problems with the law - this novel brings us into the East - there was that huge uprising in India about 10 years before this book was published - and I found an article he wrote for the Dickens published magazine - about India and he is most favorable in his descriptions of the Indian culture and population which was not common after the uprising was so savage and killed so many of the Brits both in the army and their families as well as those stationed in India.
The other biggie going on at the time was the unification of Italy along with both the French and the Austrian's visceral taking down of the Vatican which was a part of the Unification of Italy since at that time the Vatican was an area about a third of what is Italy today. I am anxious to see if any of those attitudes or the power struggle in the Italian conflict creep into his book - I just wonder if the religious connection with the jewel from the statue of a god is taking from both these conflicts although different cultures.
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Thanks for the historical background, Barb. There are so many instances of Dickens and Collins' characters spending time in the east - in India especially. I'd be surprised if the Italian struggle "crept into the book" - although Franklin Blake was educated in Italy for a while, wasn't he? Maybe...
Here's something weird I came across - regarding the moonstone itself:
"The Moonstone of the title is a diamond (not to be confused with the semi-precious moonstone gem). It gained its name from its association with the Hindu god of the moon. Originally set in the forehead of a sacred statue of the god at Somnath, and later at Benares, it was said to be protected by hereditary guardians on the orders of Vishnu, and to wax and wane in brilliance along with the light of the moon."
Don't you find that a bit confusing? I found this on the semi-precious stone - http://www.gemstoneindex.net/gemstones/moonstone.html
And this is the precious Moonstone - the Indian diamond...http://moonstone-lifelinetheatre.blogspot.com/2011/01/moonstone-diamonds-with-less-than.html
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So it was a diamond - I also thought it was a moonstone that I thought was another name for an Opal - I wonder what symbolism a Diamond has in the Hindu religion - this will be a perfect time to learn more about the Hindu religion - didn't we brush into some Hinduism when we read Travels with Herodotus?
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[...] Here's something weird I came across - regarding the moonstone itself:
"The Moonstone of the title is a diamond (not to be confused with the semi-precious moonstone gem). It gained its name from its association with the Hindu god of the moon. Originally set in the forehead of a sacred statue of the god at Somnath, and later at Benares, it was said to be protected by hereditary guardians on the orders of Vishnu, and to wax and wane in brilliance along with the light of the moon."
Don't you find that a bit confusing? I found this on the semi-precious stone - http://www.gemstoneindex.net/gemstones/moonstone.html
And this is the precious Moonstone - the Indian diamond...http://moonstone-lifelinetheatre.blogspot.com/2011/01/moonstone-diamonds-with-less-than.html
Interesting links about the moonstone, cursed diamonds and "The Moonstone" diamond. :)
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"I just wonder if the religious connection with the jewel from the statue of a god is taking from both these conflicts although different cultures."
Certainly the conflict in India is important to the story. If the conflict in Italy does, it's more subtle.
Given that conflict in India, it's interesting to see different views on India and Indians as expressed by the characters in the Moonstone. I don't know whether Collins had ever been to India?
The moonstone being a diamond is confusing. I like the (real) moonstones almost better than diamonds, (see Barb's link above) but the world doesn't agree with me.
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Was cataloging my films today and found that I own a copy of the 1934 film "Moonstone." Watched the first few minutes to learn that Beddridge is portrayed as a woman and Rachel is named Ann.
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Kidsal - you own the1934 version? That 's amazing! And Betteredge is played by a woman? Even more amazing? I read your post on my iPad, typed in "moonstone 1934" and to my amazement, I found a free streaming video of the film -46 minutes of this 1934 adaptation!- l Like you, I watched only the first minute or so, though I don't intend to watch it until after I've read the book as Wilkie wrote it.
Thanks for mentioning the film. I suppose the film makers make such radical changes to signal that the film is an "adaptation" and they won't be staying with the original story. I predict the mystery is solved a la Collins though... Don't want to spoil the suspense by seeing the ending before reading it!
http://archive.org/details/TheMoonstone
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Found on Amazon -- they have many movie collections -- mine is Mystery Classics - 50 each 1930-1945 mysteries. Got to looking at them and ordered collection of old musicals.
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While we're waiting for the curtain to go up, here's something from another book about diamonds:
'...a party was held in the Hall of Mirrors, at Versailles, on Wednesday evening, December 11, 1697, described as "the largest and most magnificent ball that had ever been seen at court....All diamonds look their best in candlelight because each flicker of flame calls forth new brilliance and amazing scintillation. Four thousand candles conspired that night to give the Diamond full, glorious life in its most beautiful setting ever. With seventeen huge arched windows on one marbe eighty-foot-long wall, and seventeen arched mirrors on the other; with sixteen massive chandaliers, twenty-four crystal candelabra, plus two great silver ones with eight branches each; with sixty-four silver tubs on silver bases holding orange trees; with alabaster and blue lapis vases on silver tables; with gleaming silver benches and chairs lined up against the wall; with dancers of both sexes ablaze in diamonds, there was, on that fairy night, a festival of light and fire beyond imagining. The entire Hall of Mirrors became one enormous diamond suspended on the black velvet night beyond.' Taken from HOPE: Adventures of a diamond, by Marian Fowler.
The Diamond was the one hanging from the neck of 'the stooped, stiff-limbed, inflexible Louis XIV, the Sun King. His last years were miserable. 'He sank into a depression, had frequent crying fits, his gout got so bad that he directed his daily council meetings of ministers from his bed'. Once he was overheard sighing: 'God seems to have forgotten all I have done for him.'
Was it the diamond? Collins suffered a similiar fate. He tells us in the preface about the severest attack of gout while writing about the cursed diamond. I can't get myself to believe that his mother's fatal illness was inflicted on her for the same reason.
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WOW! that sounds like quite a party! I can't promise anything of the kind in The moonstone, we'll have to make due with the one diamond on Rachel's breast. It probably looked better on her than the one on Louis XIV.
KIDSAL: I wish you hadn't told me that. I love both old myssteries and old musicals. Don't think I'll watch "The Moonstone", though.
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Kidsal, that's great that you have the 1934 film. I looked and a 46 minute version of it is available online at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpDPFI8qwp8
Information about the original seems to state it's 60 minutes.
I saw the 1997 TV version. I think I taped it. I have a favorable memory of it but it's hazy. I'll have to look for it.
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My version is 60 minutes. Looked up on Amazon -- quite a few films made. Think I'll skip the one for sale for $134.
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Tomorrow is the day. The questions will go up sometime today.
NEW POSTERS: these questions are only for fun. Don't feel you have to answer all (or any) of them. Many of us never even look at them. They're there because sometimes they spur our thinking (and sometimes not). We try to think of things that will get us thinking in different ways about the book, but it's hard to do.
(I have a "thing" about High School English classes. I think their purpose is to make us feel we're too dumb to read classics by asking us question we don't know the answers to. On Seniornet, the purpose of the questions is just to give us something to discus if we can't think of anything).
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Hello, people,
I just signed up for the discussion. I have had colleagues who did their dissertations on Wilkie Collins but somehow have never read The Moonstone. I did read The Woman in White maybe 35 years ago, but can't remember much except the sense of dread I got reading some parts of it, and I saw a film of it, but I rather think it was a PBS feature. So I started reading The Moonstone last night, the paperback reprinted in 2009, with a new Intro by Alev Lytle Croutier. I read that, and I got to page 11 in the text.
I don't expect to comment much, but I will be reading it. I am happy to be back here after almost a year of not coming by.
Good to see a lot names here I knew.
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WELCOME WELCOME ZULEMA! Great to have you back.
And anything your friends shared with you about collins would be welcome. I'm wondering if we will be able to detect any effect in the text from his use of opium.
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[...] (I have a "thing" about High School English classes. I think their purpose is to make us feel we're too dumb to read classics by asking us question we don't know the answers to. On Seniornet, the purpose of the questions is just to give us something to discus if we can't think of anything).
:-[ I remember my high school English years well...and yes, I felt infinitely too stupid to even open a classic much less possess one. However, I've matured since then... ;D
I'll definitely use the questions to spurn discussion ideas. This is my very first book discussion so can use all available help with the creation of stimulating conversation. ;)
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Hello, people, [...]
Hello Zulema, nice to meet you. :)
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If there are any personal comments in the forewords and such in this volume, I'll pass them on. He probably could not have written the books without the opium help, but it's not going to show except in his imagination, I assume. I never knew much about him. Didn't discuss him at all.
OT - Joan, how do I get my picture up. I've tried but failed.
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I'm not good at that. Ask in the "questions and Problems" discussion, and someone will help you.
http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=29.240
Don't be put off by earlier "tech" discussions. Just add your questions to the end.
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Joan, thank you. Meantime I have found out that Collins was very ill and bedridden when he dictated The Moonstone and he was likely to have been helped out by opium. Still, plenty of people under the influence of opium do not create anything. I remember when I got morphine some years ago in the hospital, I was just happy to doze and doze.
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Many places called shimmering sands -- Thames River (Army Fort), Wisconsin, sand dune areas; pictures of them -- golden sands. Cosmetics named shimmering sands -- golden.
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Shimmering sands...and weren't they also called "shivvering sands"? I had to smile at the idea of cosmetics named "shimmering sands" - do you think the idea of quicksand occurred to the makers, kidsal ? Puffy cheeks, bags under the eyes, all collapsing under the shimmering sands.
I was reminded of my serious childhood fear of quicksand when reading of Rosanna's fascination for the shimmering, shivvering sand. Must have seen a movie and watched people struggle to save themselves - to no avail. Was really frightened when at the New Jersey shore with family - the lower stretch of soft sand between the beach step-down into the water, before it rose again under the water. I was certain it was quicksand. Worried how I was ever going to save younger siblings in my charge.
The sands brought up two questions...what drew Rosanna to such a place? - and then, wouldn't that be a good final resting place for the cursed diamond if one wanted to dispose of it once and for all?
All that will be revealed in due time of course...but Wilkie C. plants these seeds...without our even being aware of them, doesn't he?
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I had a childhood fear of quicksand too. It was in a lot of scary books. When I grew up, I learned that it wasn't quite as straightforward. Usually, you would not sink far enough to drown, and there are ways of getting out. Here's some information:
Quicksand (http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geology/quicksand.htm)
WARNING! The first link in post 111 contains serious spoilers!
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Thanks for that link, PatH - I will keep this in mind - "With quicksand, the more you struggle in it the faster you will sink. If you just relax, your body will float in it because your body is less dense than the quicksand." I'm sure that I'd have been a struggler....
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Hi, all. How lucky we are to have The Twins leading this discussion, both experts at sifting the evidence.
Shivering Sands makes for shivering readers. How many readers of The Moonstone have been left with a permanent fear of the ground beneath their feet! It was a stroke of genius to make it part of the plot. There goes the evidence, lost in a quicksand of greed, dread and holy dedication. Conjecture, predjudice and passion. Rationalization and emotional supposition. And an ooze of other pitfalls. Let's get it all on record, Mr Bruff, the family lawyer suggests. And Gabriel Betteredge is first on the witness stand. Here's what happened. We may never know. Except for growing a certain kind of rose.
Great questions. I'm baffled by all of them. There certainly was a lot of loot in those lavish palaces. Why all the violence to get at it. Diamonds are so easy to come by. Dip your fingers in water. Hold them against a light and watch the glitter flow off their tips. Catch a dewey spiderweb in the early sun. Or a drop of rain after a shower hanging from a leaf, caught by sunlight. A dazzling diamond at 300 feet.
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Here is an interesting article about The Moonstone and India.
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/collins/pva30.html
I knew there were a bunch of wars and mutinies, but wasn't sure which was closest to publication. This article points to the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857. During the time period in which the story unfolds the British saw action in the second Sikh War (the first Sikh War was during 1845-1846). "the Storming of Seringapatam" referred to in the Prologue was during the Fourth Anglo-Mysore War of 1789-99.
BTW, I think the Koh-i-Noor diamond was brought to England a few years before the publication of The Moonstone.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/20/koh-i-noor-diamond-british-crown-jewel-will-not-be-returned_n_2730168.html
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I am inaugarating the Nook my daughter got me for my birthday with "The Moonstone". It is a fitting inaugaration since it is British and includes a magnificent diamond.
Joan P: Iquote you here only to disagree. Sorry!But perhaps you were sneakingly hoping someone would disagree so we could start a dialogue?
"Wilkie plants these seeds ...without our even being aware of them, doesn't he?'
Wilkie is a seasoned writer. He, like Dickens, understands the nature of "foreshadowing" i.e. little hints that appeared innocuous at the time will later be our entrance to important facts and happenings in future pages.
This is the reason he is the "Father" of the mystery novel.
I felt that the cleverest move so far is the telling of the same story by three different people. We see this plot type in a famous Japanese film (Rashomon) in which four wheels of a cart , each tell the same story, from their own perspective. As we know now, after seeing inumerable felms and TV shows, this is the basis for thousands of plots in which the same story is seen from a different angle.
I am amazed at how modern his writing seems to me. Delightful.
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WARNING about Frybabe's interesting link about The Moonstone and India: It contains spoilers, including who the criminal is.
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Frybabe, you're right about the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857. It was extremely bloody, with many casualties, including massacres of women and children, and left the British public with a very uneasy attitude toward India.
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Zulema, I see you figured out how to get your picture up. It's always nice to put a face to friends here.
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Too bad about the link, PAT. We'll have to postpone reading it: it looks very interesting.
I did read the first sentance, which says:
"To Wilkie Collins, the Moonstone is the signifier of all things that humanity strives for, material and spiritual."
Wow. Does that give the whole story another level of meaning?
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JUDE: perfect way to start your nook off. Let us know how you find it. I LOVE having instant access to over a million books, but my bank account has suffered a bit!
Thanks for the complement, JONATHAN. But I don't think I'd like to shift the shivvering sands. I love the movie of Bear Grylls struggling out of quicksand, Pat. (It looked like he cheated and got a little help from his crew, off camera. But at least now we all know to monkey crawl and not wait as long as he did!)
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I remember my one experience with morphine, too. ZULEMA. I went off into la-la land and gave a long speech to my roommate on the earthshaking beauty of the hospital wallpaper! I'm impressed that the authors of the time were able to write anything coherant.
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[…] I was reminded of my serious childhood fear of quicksand when reading of Rosanna's fascination for the shimmering, shivvering sand. Must have seen a movie and watched people struggle to save themselves - to no avail. Was really frightened when at the New Jersey shore with family - the lower stretch of soft sand between the beach step-down into the water, before it rose again under the water. I was certain it was quicksand. Worried how I was ever going to save younger siblings in my charge.
Me too! I’ve feared quicksand since my childhood, spent watching those late-night horror classics with Vincent Price, Boris Karloff, Lon Chaney (Sr/Jr), etc. When at Ocean City, Myrtle Beach or even camping along the Severn River or Conowingo Dam the loose sand made me think of quicksand and my unwillingly surrender into its grainy clutches. *ROFLOL*
The sands brought up two questions...what drew Rosanna to such a place? - and then, wouldn't that be a good final resting place for the cursed diamond if one wanted to dispose of it once and for all?
Given Rosanna’s prior life its no wonder, to me, she is attracted to the peaceful serenity of the Shimmering Sands. I like to believe their hypnotic shifting gives her peace from the constant reminiscing of past indiscretions. From the start I felt her heavy guilty-ridden weight upon her back; for being a thief and then serving prison time. I can only imagine what she endured in prison too…
However, while she and Betteredge chatted at the Sands, I thought it a good place to hide the diamond should it be stolen. Imagine placing the diamond in a bag, attach a sturdy rope to it and gently lower it into the shifting sand. When all was clear, retrieve the prize and make haste for the border.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little. How, and with what result, you shall presently see."
April 21-?: The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative.
Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
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For Your Consideration
April 15-21: Through section XI
1. What function does Betteredge's long introduction serve? How would you describe the mood that he sets? What point is Collins making with his use of Robinson Crusoe?
2. What recent event of that time would have made the three Indians particularly sinister to Collins' readers?
3. Is "the Shivering Sands" a real place? Do you know any such place?
4. What would you say is the main characteristic of each of the characters?
5. Do you find Betteredge racist? Sexist? Why, or why not?
6. Do you have any theories as to how the jewels were stolen? (No fair telling, if you've read the book!)
7. Why do you think Rachel is acting so strangely after the robbery?
8. What ground did Franklin and Godfrey have for their opposite opinions of the police's competence? What does this tell us about their character?
9. What kind of police organization existed at the time?
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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I remember my one experience with morphine, too. ZULEMA. I went off into la-la land and gave a long speech to my roommate on the earthshaking beauty of the hospital wallpaper! I'm impressed that the authors of the time were able to write anything coherant.
Reminds me of the time my husband underwent surgery, and they gave him Vicodine. He swore we had a shark in the pond that was inside the barn, and that children were pouring corn flakes to feed the sharks. He worried they would fall in and get eaten. THEN! He accused me of throwing away a piece of foam that belonged to his cousin Rick, who stopped by earlier asking for it. THEN! He called into work and told them he would be in to run labs for them.
The real story: We don't have a barn or pond, and sharks don't live in southwest Michigan. His cousin Rick lives in Lewellen Nebraska. It took me getting snippy with his business manager before they believed my husband was in no shape to work, much less drive a car.
;D
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That's hilarious (Now. It probably wasn't at the time!)
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[…] I am amazed at how modern his writing seems to me. Delightful.
I couldn’t help noticing his use of “to-night”, “to-day”, “to-morrow”. And then the word “metal” for the word “meddle”. I love period literature and discovering how writing evolved over the years, decades, centuries.
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That's hilarious (Now. It probably wasn't at the time!)
No it was a bit unnerving at the time, but its so hilarious now. The really funny part was, as he regaled me with all these happenings as mentioned, hubby just finished drinking water for taking his next Victoine dose. OH GREAT! Another 8 hours of hallucinations. :D
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[…] "To Wilkie Collins, the Moonstone is the signifier of all things that humanity strives for, material and spiritual."
Wow. Does that give the whole story another level of meaning?
Perceiving this statement in relationship to wealth and then reading the first 60 plus pages of this book, I agree with the statement; riches, power, worship, etc are the foundation of every person’s pursuit in life. Of course there are varying degrees of such holdings too. For some having a home and loved ones leaves them feeling rich, powerful and respected. On the extreme opposite are those who deem extreme wealth and power not enough, craving more and more. Within the story there varying degrees of wealth: from the cook, to the Head Inspector, to the Lady of the House.
Then Betteredge’s version of spiritualism is odd but thought-provoking; his using Robinson Crusoe as a guideline to life’s solutions for personal enrichment and decision making.
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The link has spoilers? Really, that sucks! I assume you mean the one about The Moonstone and India. The article looks interesting, but I just skimmed it to see which of the many, many wars and mutinies fit the time line, also skimming I saw reference to the Koh-i-Noor diamond which must have created quite a sensation when it arrived in England. Oscar had a vet appointment this afternoon, which is why the rush before I forgot it all. I certainly don't want to know who done it yet either.
The references to Robinson Caruso make me want to reread it. It was sooo long ago, that I remember the basic story, but not the philosophical aspects which our man Betteredge seems to have gotten from it.
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Yes, that's the one; it's too bad, because the link has some excellent points. I suggest we post it again at the end of the discussion, when we can appreciate it safely.
I read Robinson Crusoe as a teenager, and have almost completely forgotten it. I suspect Betteredge is reading a lot into the book.
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Oh Pat, I feel like a bull who has just seen a red cape before it's eyes.
Betteridge is not just reading something into Robinson Crusoe but reading into it what is there already.
The book, one of the most popularly read in the world till today (it was written in 1719) is considered to have marked the beginning of realistic fiction.
James Joyce noted that Crusoe is the symbol of the British Conquests;" manly,independent,unconcious cruelty, persistence,slow but efficient intelligence,sexual apathy,tacturnity."
WE are not discussing that book or Defoe but it's seeming simplicity covers many fascinating thoughts. I'm sure Collins knew that when he chose this particular book to be the guide to the seemingly simple Betteridge.
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I must admit when I first read The Moonstone (decades ago) it led me to read Robinson Crusoe. I was sorely disappointed! Where were the pearls of wisdom? I couldn't find them.
What do you all think?
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Reading Robinson Crusoe. 'Where were the pearls of wisdom?' Good question, JoanK. Well, Crusoe's comment that 'what is loved today will be despised tomorrow' helps Betteredge to accept the promotion that Lady Julia offers him. RB is his favorite reading. No doubt he admires Crusoe's resourceful nature and his ability of self-preservation. I believe that Betteredge saw many other English virtues in the adventurer. Of course the adventures must have appealed to a man who had spent a lifetime in 'service'. More than fifty years he has served the family! Probably never even got to London.
I enjoyed reading Frybabe's link to the victorianweb. No spoilers in it for me. I was impressef by the critique with all its background information. Perhaps even a bit more than I cared to know. But it's all summed up beautifylly.
'The Moonstone may be viewed not as a response to a national insurgency and or European determination to keep the native in his place, but rather as a love story between two people who only come to see each other for what they are after misjudgments, misunderstandings, accidental and intended deceptions, and considerable self-sacrifice.'
That's the part we might miss if we're too preoccupied with 'whodunnit'.
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First, I have to give thanks to Jane, the tech expert, whom I sent my picture and she put it up. I didn't want to be the only faceless one here.
Jude, the style I find more 18th century than 19th, though the concerns are modern. Human nature does not really change, our circumstances and surroundings do. Some of Collins's writing reminds me of Sterne, like the going back in time, pretending to need to explain things from the very beginning to a fault, apologizing for getting lost along the way, etc. I am just into the Second Period, and he is certainly having his fun with Miss Clack's pieties. Reminds me a bit of Trollope. My mind makes connections.
I had never read The Moonstone and I am so happy to have been given this opportunity to do so in this collective way.
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My edition of the book has an introduction by PD James in which she states:
"Collins was meticulous in his research; it was a matter of pride in him to get the historical, forensic, and medical details right. He seems to have read several standard books on India, where the opening section of the novel is set, and corresponded with a member of the Indian Civil Service. He obtained information about the Koh-i-Noor diamond from a book on precious stones published in 1865, and he claims that he verified 'the physiological experiment which occupied a prominent place in the closing scenes of The Moonstone... not only from books but from living authorities as well.' He himself was one of those authorities. He took large doses of laudanum to assuage the agonies of gout, and the portrait of Ezra Jennings, the opium user, is partly autobiographical."
It's interesting to me that Collins tried to make his book as realistic as possible. He's known as a "sensationalist" writer. Anthony Trollope, who was a friend of Collins, wrote in 1883 that "All this [Collins being sensational] is, I think, a mistake, which arises from the inability of the imperfect artist to be at the same time realistic and sensational. A good novel should be both, and both in the highest degree.... Let an author so tell his tale as to touch his reader's heart and draw his tears, and he has, so far, sone his work well. Truth let there be -- truth of description, truth of character, human truth as to men and women. If there be such truth, I do not know that a novel can be too sensational."
These thoughts provide for me a helpful foundation for reading the book.
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In the book there is mention of the Magdalene asylum from which the new maid was released. It piqued my interest because I had just read another book which mentioned it. They generally have a nasty reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum
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"Asylums for such girls and women and others believed to be of poor moral character, such as prostitutes, operated throughout Europe and North America for much of the nineteenth and well into the twentieth century..."
Until I read the link to the Magdalene asylum, Fry, I hadn't associated Rosanna with prostitution at all. I thought her offense had been theft - and that this would be one reason to associate her with the missing moonstone - in the minds of some. In the back of my mind, I can't forget how she blushes and brightens when Franklin Blake appears on the scene. The reason for this has yet to be disclosed.
Wasn't it unusual for Wilkie to choose Betteredge for a narrator? Servants at this time were simply not heard from. Wilkie portrays him as a man of principle, of strong opinions, (some sexist, some racist, though willing to make exceptions)...He will not be the one to give away Rosanna's past life. It seems that everyone - from Lady Julia, to Franklin - to Rosanna trust him and confide in him. What better choice for a narrator - an omnicient narrator at that.
But he seems to have no confidante no close friend...no one to turn to for advice -
- "No doubt he admires Crusoe's resourceful nature and his ability of self-preservation."
Jonathan, both men seem to be in the same boat - or the same island. :D I can see where Mr. Betteredge takes comfort in reading how Crusoe deals with his isolation and manages to survive - remarkably well. Crusoe's experience have become Betteredge's bible, words to live by.
ps Jude - Yes, you did see through the remark - ..."Wilkie plants these seeds ...without our even being aware of them." He tosses out so many seeds that we are easily distracted from the obvious... My main quibble with so many mysteries - so many of the solutions come about from clues that have not been introduced at any time in the story - I find Poe guilty of this quite often. I get the feeling that Wilkie will not disappoint in this way...
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I urge anyone who hasn't read the book before not to read ahead. There are lots of plot twists and turns and it will be more fun to discover what's going on with the others.
You only get one chance to be surprised and puzzled by a mystery, and it's fun to have company.
If everyone is finding this too hard, we can speed up the schedule. Nothing is cast in stone here.
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The place Roseanna came from is described as a reformatory where women who have come from prison are given a chance to get back to honest ways. Roseanna had been a thief, and had served her prison sentence. I don't think she had been a prostitute, though later we learn that her mother had been. I suspect Lady Verinder would not have taken an ex-prostitute into the house.
In that article about the Magdalene asylums, I was amused by the remark that what made them die out was the washing machine--there was no longer a market for laundresses.
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JoanP, the Magdalene asylums originally started out to reform prostitutes, but they soon expanded into other areas such as theft as well as unwed mothers (the babies were often taken away from them and given up for adoption), and children of parents who thought their little darling was just too pretty for her own good or potentially promiscuous or children who became orphaned. Some poor parents, often encouraged by parish priests, to see the asylums as a means to improve their lot as well as the child's.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21345995
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/real_life/4812617/For-three-years-I-was-a-child-slave-in-the-Magdalene-Laundries.html
The brunt of the articles about the Magdalene asylums are about the Irish institutions. There were many more in England and probably elsewhere. There were some in Australia that were operated somewhat differently; I haven't looked into the differences. I did see an article somewhere (can't find it now) that said that a number of the girls went on to be nuns themselves. I assume that the abusive practices not a part of all the homes. There are those who reported not seeing any abuse during some of the recent investigations, but plenty of reports as those above indicate that there was mental as well as physical abuse.
I think some of what we call abuse today was common practice years ago and thought of as disciplinary measures and character building rather than abuse. Along those lines, I remember some of my Catholic playmates when I was young talking about knuckle rappings at Catholic school, and don't forget the paddle was a common disciplinary measure at one time. Today, a teacher may not touch a child or stand him/her in a corner for a schoolroom infraction.
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But it is strongly suggested that Rosanna has met Franklin Blake before - in some capacity. If not as a prostitute, then what? Such a relationship puts his character in question, doesn't it?
Yet, I didn't notice any sign of recognition on his part, did you?
PatH, I wonder at Lady Julia bringing a convicted thief into her household. I suspect there were mitigating circumstances that we are not told about, don't you?
Fry.. - not the misbehaving girls, but I recall the 8th grade boys getting ear-boings on a regular basis...
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Sorry, I was modifying my last post and missed you last.
Yes, it puzzles me greatly what the relationship is between Blake and Rosanna. I suppose we must bide our time and expect an answer later in the book.
The other thing that is puzzling so far, is how the Indians seemed to know where the diamond was and when it would be there. What a spy network they must have. Does anyone believe the little British child is truly clairvoyant? What on earth is that "black ink" that is poured into his hand?
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In the book there is mention of the Magdalene asylum from which the new maid was released. It piqued my interest because I had just read another book which mentioned it. They generally have a nasty reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum
I suspected Rosanna had endured harsh treatment while in prison, and this link only confirm those suspicions. Its awful how humane intentions become nonfiction horror stories. :(
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[...] In that article about the Magdalene asylums, I was amused by the remark that what made them die out was the washing machine--there was no longer a market for laundresses.
I noted that as well. Oh no, this form of a sweat shop couldn't die out due to humane reason, instead by a machine invention. :o ;)
Also, I can't help but think the proprietors of these places were more interested in lording over those less fortunate and not progressing a business. :-\
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[...]I think some of what we call abuse today was common practice years ago and thought of as disciplinary measures and character building rather than abuse. Along those lines, I remember some of my Catholic playmates when I was young talking about knuckle rappings at Catholic school, and don't forget the paddle was a common disciplinary measure at one time. Today, a teacher may not touch a child or stand him/her in a corner for a schoolroom infraction.
I had (have) cousins who were devoted Catholics and spoke of ruler rapping across the knuckles, kneeling while saying the "Hail Mary" numerous time in repentance for some childhood infraction, etc... When I was in elementary school I remember "The Board" used on children who continuously broke the rules. Heck! My parents used a board on my sister and I growing up...until we broke it rough housing one afternoon. ;)
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[...]Some poor parents, often encouraged by parish priests, to see the asylums as a means to improve their lot as well as the child's.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21345995
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/real_life/4812617/For-three-years-I-was-a-child-slave-in-the-Magdalene-Laundries.html
This article breaks my heart... :'(
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But it is strongly suggested that Rosanna has met Franklin Blake before - in some capacity. If not as a prostitute, then what? Such a relationship puts his character in question, doesn't it?
Yet, I didn't notice any sign of recognition on his part, did you?
I noted that as well, that Blake didn't seem to recognize Rosanna any time they were in each others company. And yes, I questioned his character due to Rosanna's behavior when I first read about them together; at the Shimmering Sands. Since someone mentioned Rosanna's mother was a prostitute, I wonder if maybe he visited her mother why Rosanna may remember him so fondly.
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The other thing that is puzzling so far, is how the Indians seemed to know where the diamond was and when it would be there. What a spy network they must have. Does anyone believe the little British child is truly clairvoyant? What on earth is that "black ink" that is poured into his hand?
Glad you brought those points up, because I too wondered about it too. I believe the Indians followed Blake from London, taking up the detail of following the diamond around since the previous ones were murdered. I may regret it in the end, but the Indians don't concern me as much as the nagging question of, "What is the true purpose of the little boy?"
Clairvoyant or not, his usefulness is bizarre to me.
I agree again, what in the world could black ink offer in aid to prophesying? In my youth I dabbled in the occult and black ink was never a suggested medium. Curiouser, curiouser…
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Is anyone finding the pace too slow? too fast? We can always adjust it, but we need to know.
The black ink: it looks like Collins wants to introduce a slight element of the supernatural here. We'll have to wait and see if he develops it.
I have a dim memory of reading about a Magdelene Society scandal in Canada, but I didn't see any mention of that in the first article. I suspect the conditions were worse in some facilities than others, and probably got worse over time. Do youu think Collins is seeing Rosanna's self-loathing as due to her treatment at the Society, or as natural, given her past?
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I had assumed the black ink was a variation of scrying, in which you put a drop of oil on a liquid, and see things in the swirling pattern.
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Scrying:
http://www.crystalinks.com/scrying.html
Appantly, a crystal ball or water are more usually used, but any reflective mediem bthat the person can stare into and "see" things.
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Is anyone finding the pace too slow? too fast? We can always adjust it, but we need to know.
The pace is fine to me, but if its sped up I can hold my own. :)
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[...] Do youu think Collins is seeing Rosanna's self-loathing as due to her treatment at the Society, or as natural, given her past?
I feel he puts blame for Rosanna's self-loathing squarely on the society.
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I had assumed the black ink was a variation of scrying, in which you put a drop of oil on a liquid, and see things in the swirling pattern.
Scrying: http://www.crystalinks.com/scrying.html
Appantly, a crystal ball or water are more usually used, but any reflective mediem bthat the person can stare into and "see" things.
YES! Scrying... I never thought of that. ;)
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"In my youth I dabbled in the occult and black ink was never a suggested medium."
Oh Pamela, tell more! I remember one scarey night "playing with a Ouja board with friends... could have sworn something was going on that night. Never again!
Can someone tell me about this little blond British boy "scrying" with the Indians? His supernatural power would be one answer to Fry's question about how the Indians can know where the diamond is. But who is this little boy? Did I miss that explanation somewhere? Do you get the feeling he's been kidnapped? Or?
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When thinking of this little boy - possibly kidnapped by the Indians, I remembered a question someone asked here earlier - about whether Wilkie C had ever visited India. I don't have the answer to that question, but do remember this about Dickens, who was working closely with Wilkie when he wrote The Moonstone in 1867-68.
Dickens had two sons who volunteered to serve in the British Army in India. His son Walter disappeared, never to return home. Dickens always blamed his son's inept British commanders. On New Year's Eve in 1863 he received word that his 22 year old son had died in India.
Surely DIckens and Collins had talked of Walter's recent death - , as Collins was writing the installments for Dickens' paper.
Collins writes in disparaging terms of the British officers in command in India during the Siege of Seringapatam when the diamond was stolen.
I will be very interested in hearing more about this little British boy with the Indians - and where he came from...
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I don't consider myself superstitious, but I never thought the Ouji board was something to play with like a game. My ex and some neighbors had a really strange encounter (over several nights) with one. Who ever heard of a Ouji asking questions? This one did. The one I remember the best is the question it asked about what visual light spectrum we see in. The two at the board were in something of a trance, feeling quite drained afterwords. We brought in two of our other neighbors to witness the encounter one night. The board hesitated to respond as if checking out the newcomers. The whole thing stopped when one of the board operators asked a question we had all agreed not to get into (religion) and I got upset. We could never get it back afterwards. There had been definitely a feeling of a presence there. This was about the tim the Comet Kahoteck (not sure I spelled that right) was passing by. Lots of psychic activity was reported about then from others.
JoanP, I got the impression that the boy was one of those numerous children on the streets, orphaned or otherwise left to fend for themselves. I didn't get the impression he was kidnapped. I suspected on reading the bit where he didn't want to cooperate that when they threatened to take him back to the situation he had been in before, he much preferred being with the Indians. They probably provided him with a regular meal and tolerable sleeping accommodations, whereas previously he would have had to catch as catch can so to speak. That was my take, anyway.
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Hmm...Dickens did write often of those poor children fending for themselves in the streets of London at this time. You could be right. I'm wondering how the Indians knew the boy had this power when they picked him up. Was it necessary that their boy be a British boy?
A powerful experience, with "the board" Fry. You sound as if you accepted the "presence" at that time. Do you think that WilkieC's readers were able to accept the supernatural scrying explanation at that time...even though we are skeptical?
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I've no doubt that seances or otherwise communicating with the departed were very popular in the 19th century. The first book about it, Communitation With the Other Side was written by George, First Baron Lyttelton, and published in England in 1760. I don't know if Collins or Dickens partook of the spiritualist movement, but they certainly would have been aware of it. Some famous authors who either believed or were curious about it included Mark Twain, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and Dostoevsky. Dostoevsky was aware of its popularity and so included it in some of his writings; he himself apparently believed in premonitions rather than actually talking to the dead.
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'curious hocus-pocus', Mr Franklin calls it, according to Betteredge. (ch 8 ) Indian magic. No doubt the British were learning a lot of curious things about their exotic subjects in far away India. The clairvoyant boy was found useful for their purpose, and was no doubt rewarded in some fashion. I don't think he was kidnapped.
I remember being warned about ouija boards when I was young. Raising spirits was a dangerous thing. I never made an effort to find out. Reading something like The Moonstone was thrilling enough as a young teenager. The book has lost none of it's magic I'm pleased to see. Betteredge is more my age now and I can appreciate his thinking and his memory recall efforts and his problems sitting down and getting up. How pleased he is about his abilities and his smarts. Very clever the way he looks at Franklin's foreign education, seeing all the French, German and Italian influences. And by the way telling us several times that Franklin was always in need of money. That's such an obvious clue. And how proud he is of his ability to get the cooperation of women, young and old. Except for his departed wife, with whom he always disputed the right of way on the stairs in the house.
And now for a spoiler. In my researches I've discovered that Charles Dickens, the very good friend of Wilkie Collins, foundThe Moonstone 'wearisome beyond endurance'. While the circulation of his journal containing the story was increasing. The public lapped it up. Robinson Crusoe, too was on everyone's mind.
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And also Mary Lincoln, who had spiritualists conducting seances in the White House a number of times, trying to get into touch with her two boys. The president attended once. It must have been too trying for him.
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Oh Pamela, tell more! I remember one scarey night "playing with a Ouja board with friends... could have sworn something was going on that night. Never again!
My bestest girlfriend in the whole world (yes, there’s no such word as ‘bestest’ ;)) and I use to dip into tarot, Ouija, and astrology, mostly for future telling. I’ve never considered myself possessing any 6th sense or 3rd eye, but while I operated the the Ouija, my girlfriend's grandfather’s death popped up. I blew it off. However… 3-4 weeks later he passed from a heart attack. I’ve never done any divination, predicting, tarot reading, etc., again. Though I still enjoy [reading] astrology in spite of my religious practices. ;)
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Can someone tell me about this little blond British boy "scrying" with the Indians? His supernatural power would be one answer to Fry's question about how the Indians can know where the diamond is. But who is this little boy? Did I miss that explanation somewhere? Do you get the feeling he's been kidnapped? Or?
I believe its Chapter 3 we first learn of the boy and the three Indians. But in the chapters we’ve read so far the boy’s identity is obscure.
The two girls had seen the Indians pass out, after I had warned them off, followed by their little boy. Taking it into their heads that the boy was ill-used by the foreigners—for no reason that I could discover, except that he was pretty and delicate-looking—the two girls had stolen along the inner side of the hedge between us and the road, and had watched the proceedings of the foreigners on the outer side. Those proceedings resulted in the performance of the following extraordinary tricks.
In the excerpt above Collins reveals the group is hidden, secretly practicing their “curious hocus-pocus” as Jonathan called it. :D However I wonder if they are not using the boy as a conduit for their magic as presented by this passage:
[…] The Indian—first touching the boy's head, and making signs over it in the air—then said, "Look." The boy became quite stiff, and stood like a statue, looking into the ink in the hollow of his hand.
So I’m assuming the boy is in some kind of trance when this dialog begins:
The Indians looked up the road and down the road once more—and then the chief Indian said these words to the boy; "See the English gentleman from foreign parts."
The boy said, "I see him."
The Indian said, "Is it on the road to this house, and on no other, that the English gentleman will travel to-day?"
The boy said, "It is on the road to this house, and on no other, that the English gentleman will travel to-day." The Indian put a second question—after waiting a little first.
He said: "Has the English gentleman got It about him?"
The boy answered—also, after waiting a little first—"Yes."
The Indian put a third and last question: "Will the English gentleman come here, as he has promised to come, at the close of day?"
The boy said, "I can't tell."
The Indian asked why.
The boy said, "I am tired. The mist rises in my head, and puzzles me. I can see no more to-day."
The Chief Indian then performs as if “closing a portal to another dimension” as presented here:
He then, after making more signs on the boy's head, blew on his forehead, and so woke him up with a start. After that, they all went on their way towards the town, and the girls saw them no more.
Quotes taken from: Project Gutenberg EBook of The Moonstone, by Wilkie Collins.
From these paragraphs I’m quick to assume the boy is an orphan or street urchin, given the period we are reading in. He doesn’t appear fearful of the Indians collectively, instead fears the “magic” they believe in. He is their spiritual instrument for sure. Then within our assigned chapters the boy is never presented in a bad light; no bruises, disheveled, or seeming to be hungry. Finally, given the boy’s “pretty” appearance the females in the audience are compelled to kiss and fawn over him after the performance. So he seems well cared for and in no immediate danger. As for why a British boy? Convenience I think... :)
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The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little. How, and with what result, you shall presently see."
April 21-?: The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative.
Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg) |
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For Your Consideration
April 15-21: Through section XI
1. What function does Betteredge's long introduction serve? How would you describe the mood that he sets? What point is Collins making with his use of Robinson Crusoe?
2. What recent event of that time would have made the three Indians particularly sinister to Collins' readers?
3. Is "the Shivering Sands" a real place? Do you know any such place?
4. What would you say is the main characteristic of each of the characters?
5. Do you find Betteredge racist? Sexist? Why, or why not?
6. Do you have any theories as to how the jewels were stolen? (No fair telling, if you've read the book!)
7. Why do you think Rachel is acting so strangely after the robbery?
8. What ground did Franklin and Godfrey have for their opposite opinions of the police's competence? What does this tell us about their character?
9. What kind of police organization existed at the time?
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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It occurs to me as I reread the dialog you posted, Pamela - that it just might be in this little boy's interest to play along and pretend he's seeing something...to keep the Indians' interest in his abilities alive and well. What do you think? He didn't really give them much solid, verifiable information, did he?
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[…]And by the way telling us several times that Franklin was always in need of money. That's such an obvious clue. And how proud he is of his ability to get the cooperation of women, young and old. Except for his departed wife, with whom he always disputed the right of way on the stairs in the house.
Great point of reference, and let me point out Franklin’s eagerness to go to the magistrate. My thinking is he secreted away the diamond before why not again… 8)
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It occurs to me as I reread the dialog you posted, Pamella - that it just might be in this little boy's interest to play along and pretend he's seeing something...to keep the Indians' interest in his abilities alive and well. What do you think? He didn't really give them any solid, verifiable information, did he?
Definitely! Whether the boy's intentions are honorable or otherwise, he's a survivor. ;)
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Hmmm. So some of you think that Franklin took the jewel because he needed money. What do the rest of you think? (No fair answering if you've read the book. I've read the book, but forgotten a lot about the solution.)
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What is Franklin really like, anyway? What does anyone think? He has charm, is good-looking, a spendthrift, is he a good guy or a bad guy?
And Rachel has another suitor, too--Godfrey Ablewhite. What do you think of him?
By the way, you notice that both suitors are her first cousins.
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JoanK, the thought that Franklin took it also crossed my mind. I was thinking that because it was suggested that the diamond be put into the local bank vault in the morning for safe keeping, because Rachel was careless about announcing where she would put it for the night (in an unlocked cabinet/box as I recall), and to throw the Indians off he decided to swipe it. At any rate, I wonder if he could have convinced Rachel to let him put it in the bank considering the way she was mesmerized by the thing. Why on earth would she be so careless about putting it in an unsecured place? Wouldn't you be more careful with such a valuable piece? I would.
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JoanK, the thought that Franklin took it also crossed my mind. I was thinking that because it was suggested that the diamond be put into the local bank vault in the morning for safe keeping, because Rachel was careless about announcing where she would put it for the night (in an unlocked cabinet/box as I recall), and to throw the Indians off he decided to swipe it. At any rate, I wonder if he could have convinced Rachel to let him put it in the bank considering the way she was mesmerized by the thing. Why on earth would she be so careless about putting it in an unsecured place? Wouldn't you be more careful with such a valuable piece? I would.
Great perspective Frybabe’s. Yes, Rachel’s blunder in letting everyone know where she was storing it was foolish. But if Frank did steal the diamond to protect it, this act shines a more positive light on him.
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What is Franklin really like, anyway? What does anyone think? He has charm, is good-looking, a spendthrift, is he a good guy or a bad guy?
From the read I envision Frank being debonair, worldly, and accustom to being respected because of his wealthy status.
And Rachel has another suitor, too--Godfrey Ablewhite. What do you think of him? […]
I think there’s some thing off about Godfrey. The description Betteredge uses to describe Godfrey sparks my discomfort of this man:
“He stood over six feet high; he had a beautiful red and white colour; a smooth round face, shaved as bare as your hand; and a head of lovely long flaxen hair, falling negligently over the poll of his neck.”
He almost sounds angelic, beautiful even, which in a man makes me think of one thing: a gigolo. This is supported by his only being associated with women’s legal issues and organizations:
“Female benevolence and female destitution could do nothing without him. Maternal societies for confining poor women; Magdalen societies for rescuing poor women; strong-minded societies for putting poor women into poor men's places, and leaving the men to shift for themselves;—he was vice-president, manager, referee to them all. Wherever there was a table with a committee of ladies sitting round it in council there was Mr. Godfrey at the bottom of the board, keeping the temper of the committee, and leading the dear creatures along the thorny ways of business, hat in hand.[…]”
He represents the typical Victorian lothario found in modern historical romance novels. *LOL*
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Still here. Have gotten a little behind, but am on chapter 8. I am enjoying the book so far; but have been busy. Still having problems since my surgery. Wound won't heal & looks like infection is back. I have an appt with an infectious disease specialist next Wed.
On a lighter note; I am going to spend the next few days in Dallas with my daughter & family. Just needed to get away for a while. I am taking my Kindle & will hopefully catch up then.
Sally
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Oh, dear, take good care of yourself, Sally. I'm glad you''re enjoying the book.
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Since this is the first Mystery Novel, perhaps Franklin would be the VERY FIRST red herring?
No mystery that respects itself, or its readers would be so obvious that the perpetrator of the crime is given up in the first hundred pages of a four hundred page book.
If it is Franklin I will be sorely disappointed.
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Since this is the first Mystery Novel, perhaps Franklin would be the VERY FIRST red herring?
No mystery that respects itself, or its readers would be so obvious that the perpetrator of the crime is given up in the first hundred pages of a four hundred page book.
If it is Franklin I will be sorely disappointed.
So true, JudeS... so true. ;)
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SALLY: so sorry you are having trouble. {{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}
Hope you have a great time with your daughter and the Moonstone. Let us know.
The first Red Herring! I hadn't thought of that. Now, "red herrings" are part of the Mystery genre: clues that lead the reader down a false trail, sometimes very cleverly done.
Now where did that phrase come from? Off to find out.
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I'm back with Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring
In addition to the meaning we're using, wiki also refers to a logical fallacy, where an argument is used sounding like it's backing up an assertion, but actually being irrelevant.
It had been assumed that the term came from a practice in training English hunting dogs of dragging a "red herring" (kipper) across the trail to confuse them. Now, some think that the so-called practice was a literary fiction.
Mythbusters tested to see if a red herring would confuse a hunting dog (I love Mythbusters!). The dog stopped and ate the fish, then continued tracking. Busted!
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Thanks for that link, JoanK. Will keep in mind what was said in that link..."there is no such thing as a "red herring" :D
At this point, I'm torn...JoanK, you ask if we believe Franklin took the diamond because he needs the money. It sure appears that WilkieC wants us to believe that he is involved in its disappearance in some way...though a motive isn't clear at this point.
Then Jude's comment makes me feel a bit defensive for Wilkie, who set out to write a "romance" if we are to believe the title he gave to his novel..The Moonstone, a Romance.. He did include a mysterious stone, its disappearance and a detective force to locate it, which later became the ingredients of a detective mystery.
Jude, since this was later came to be regarded as the first mystery novel, I really don't think Collins' readers would have been as disappointed as you would be...if "the perpetrator of the crime is given up in the first 100 pages" - they have no other mysteries to which to compare this novel.\!
It is interesting to watch Wilkie put his pilot in motion. In the back of my mind I'm thinking of Jonathan's "spoiler" - Dickens' "tedious and wearisome" comment. He does add that the public is buying up each installment as fast as they are printed.
Does anyone have a mental picture of this multi-colored door to Rachel's boudoir, which she has been working on with cousin Franklin? Does anyone remember if painting the door was Franklin's idea? Could this be important?
Take it easy, Sally. I'm so happy to hear you are with your daughter to care for you. I'm glad too that you have a good book to keep you company!
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'It is interesting to watch Wilkie put his plot in motion.' JoanP
I like that. I like what all of you are seeing in this book. Isn't there a ton of stuff to speculate about. What was Collins trying to do with this story about a diamond? Who stole it? So easy, too, with Rachel putting it into an unlocked drawer. Think of what John Herncastle had to do to acquire it. And then lived in fear and animosity for fifty years. Is he knowingly making trouble for others when he wills it to his niece? Who gets it in the end? The Hindu goddess?
I suppose everything between the covers is part of the plot. Including the gout suffered by the author who even dared to write about the cursed diamond. And the cursed lives. It struck me as interesting that the author himself wonders about his fictional creation, in the preface. Wondering himself if the theme is character or circumstance. And how the two are related.
Dickens found it tedious. All he saw in it was storytelling tricks, including the red herrings, such as the painted door, which allowed the author to fill up fifty pages looking for a gown with a paint smudge!! Or asking who would make a better match for Rachel: Godfrey or Franklin? Godfrey with his casket for Rachel. Franklin with his modest trinket. Penelope thinks it should be Franklin. Her father thinks it should be Godfrey. Or is it the other way around? Godfrey is such a solid citizen, with great appeal for all women. And so much comment on the plight of some women in 19c England. Even someone like Gladstone, the Prime Minister, walked the London streets at night looking for fallen women whom he could set straight.
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Jonathan: "Dickens found it tedious." I quoted TS Eliot (secondhand above as calling The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." I saw the quote elsewhere as "The first, LONGEST, and greatest...." (caps mine). What about you all. Does anyone find it tedious. I don't -- I enjoy B's rambling. But I can understand if someone doesn't.
Since it was serialized, I wonder if Collins himself had decided at this point who the guilty person was?
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I'm back with Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring
In addition to the meaning we're using, wiki also refers to a logical fallacy, where an argument is used sounding like it's backing up an assertion, but actually being irrelevant.
It had been assumed that the term came from a practice in training English hunting dogs of dragging a "red herring" (kipper) across the trail to confuse them. Now, some think that the so-called practice was a literary fiction.
Mythbusters tested to see if a red herring would confuse a hunting dog (I love Mythbusters!). The dog stopped and ate the fish, then continued tracking. Busted!
Love your Wiki finds, JoanK! :D
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Does anyone have a mental picture of this multi-colored door to Rachel's boudoir, which she has been working on with cousin Franklin?
It may not be Michelangelo, but it sounds rather intriguing, colorful and “busy”. Page 36,
Miss Rachel then covered the surface, under his directions and with his help, with patterns and devices—griffins, birds, flowers, cupids, and such like—copied from designs made by a famous Italian painter, whose name escapes me: the one, I mean, who stocked the world with Virgin Maries, and had a sweetheart at the baker's.
Does anyone remember if painting the door was Franklin's idea? Could this be important?
Yes, Franklin was the one to suggest painting the paneling on the boudoir’s door. Page 36:
As for Mr. Franklin and Miss Rachel, they tortured nothing, I am glad to say. They simply confined themselves to making a mess; and all they spoilt, to do them justice, was the panelling of a door.
Mr. Franklin's universal genius, dabbling in everything, dabbled in what he called "decorative painting." He had invented, he informed us, a new mixture to moisten paint with, which he described as a "vehicle." What it was made of, I don't know. What it did, I can tell you in two words—it stank. Miss Rachel being wild to try her hand at the new process, Mr. Franklin sent to London for the materials; mixed them up, with accompaniment of a smell which made the very dogs sneeze when they came into the room; put an apron and a bib over Miss Rachel's gown, and set her to work decorating her own little sitting-room—called, for want of English to name it in, her "boudoir."
It would provide Franklin an opportunity in convincing Rachel to let him hide the stone; because of the men following him in London. It would take some convincing on his part as Rachel is not easily influence. It’s stated that she can hold her own whether it’s within convention or not. Any way, the time spent painting may be suitable for this undertaking.
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Think of what John Herncastle had to do to acquire it. And then lived in fear and animosity for fifty years. Is he knowingly making trouble for others when he wills it to his niece? Who gets it in the end? The Hindu goddess?
When discovering Herncastle left the cursed stone to his niece (Rachel), I confess to believing he did this as vengeance against his sister’s continued snubbing.
As for who gets the stone in the end…I’m casting a vote for the Indians who will return it to the Hindu goddess. But my choice is conventional as I feel the diamond belongs to India’s people.
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Jonathan: "Dickens found it tedious." I quoted TS Eliot (secondhand above as calling The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." I saw the quote elsewhere as "The first, LONGEST, and greatest...." (caps mine). What about you all. Does anyone find it tedious. I don't -- I enjoy B's rambling. But I can understand if someone doesn't.
I read the way an author writes. I hold no expectation that an author should write “for me”. The testament then is whether the author’s imagination successfully retains my interest. If s/he does, great; if not where’s the next book. ;)
Betteredge’s rambling on about those around him, background stories and other observations adds captivating pizzazz to my experience.
[quote*L author=JoanK link=topic=3772.msg189963#msg189963 date=1366327656] Since it was serialized, I wonder if Collins himself had decided at this point who the guilty person was?[/quote]
He could have… or he flipped-flopped with “villianizing” other characters throughout the story, until settling on “The One”. :D
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And we discuss the way Collins wrote: taking our time and enjoying all the bits and pieces.
Like this one:
"copied from designs made by a famous Italian painter, whose name escapes me: the one, I mean, who stocked the world with Virgin Maries, and had a sweetheart at the baker's."
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But we are starting on the second half of Betteredge's narative on the 21st (Sunday. See the heading) so get your reading hats on.
Meanwhile, what do we think of the police work so far? In the next section, we will meet our "Sherlock Holmes".
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Although I have the book on my Nook, I picked up a copy of The Moonstone from the library. This is a Signet paperback edition with a Forward by a professor of Literature and an afterwood (which I have refrained from reading for fear of knowing too much since I am sticking to the suggested schedule.) by a Professor of British Lit. who has written especially on the use of Robinson Crusoe in The Moonstone.
The Professor who wrote the foeward also gives us a lot of information on the use of Defoe's book in the Moonstone. (To be more sucinct I will refer to Robinson Crusoe as RC from now on.)
"The Shivering Sand is a kind of metaphor for life itself, waiting to grab off the unwary , ever present beyond the reaches of the estate. Itis, in fact, the other , a wild side of RC, ...".
"The seeemingly anomalous role of RC reinforces the past upon the present. As against the Indians and the Indian past of the Diamond, Gabriel Betteridge offers the rationality of Defoe. Whatever appears inexplicable in this adventure can be explained reasonably by Crusoe. But the significantuse by Collins goes further, deep into Collins efforts to create and transform the detective genre. Betteredge, who himself is a kind of loyal Friday to Lady Verinder, finds in RC those most typical apothegms which would appeal to the yeoman Englishman i.e. 'Today we love what tomorrow we hate' ...Crusoe comforts him, as he should, since Crusoe is the epitome of the righteous Englishman who Betteredge wishes to serve. The association with RC moves the narrative well beyond the mystery into the mainstream of the English novel , since the Defoe work comes at the beginning and helps set the terms......"
There is much , much more, but I will add it only if there is someone besides myself very interested.
I was happy to find out that a favorite childhood book came into such play in this novel.
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That's very interesting. "
"The association with RC moves the narrative well beyond the mystery into the mainstream of the English novel , since the Defoe work comes at the beginning and helps set the terms......"
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I, for one, would be interested in more about RC. Anyone who isn't can always skim it.
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One has to wonder about Dickens's literary judgment when he says that he found The Moonstone 'wearisome beyond endurance'. It simply outclassed him and he couldn't appreciate that. Only kidding. Dickens must have had other things on his mind.
Jude mentions the foreward to her edition of The Moonstone. There are many editions of the book with forewards by many distinguished writers and scholars. I devoured the book as a teenager and I'm still carried away now by the 'captivating pizzazz' as Pamela so colorfully puts it.
Can we begin to suggest suspects? How about Lady Verinder? After what the diamond has done to the family, she doesn't want it in the house.
'Rachel,' she asked, 'where are you going to put your Diamond tonight?'
And just before that, at the beginning of Chapter XI, the author mentions all those present in the room: My Lady and Miss Rachel. Godfrey and Franklin. The serving man Samuel. And of course Betteredge.
Rachel says she'll put the diamond into the Indian cabinet in her sitting-room.
'My dear! your Indian cabinet has no lock to it,' says my lady.
So, it has to be one of the six. The whereabouts of the three Indians is also accounted for.
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I, for one, would be interested in more about RC. Anyone who isn't can always skim it.
Here! Here! Give us more, please JudeS. 8) I enjoyed reading what you wrote so far...
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The association with RC moves the narrative well beyond the mystery into the mainstream of the English novel , since the Defoe work comes at the beginning and helps set the terms......"
JudeS,
Curious… how does Robinson Crusoe set the terms of the novel? And what are those “terms”?
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But we are starting on the second half of Betteredge's narative on the 21st (Sunday. See the heading) so get your reading hats on.
Meanwhile, what do we think of the police work so far? In the next section, we will meet our "Sherlock Holmes".
From what I remember the police work seems imperfect and unremarkable. However, it’s only the beginning, Superintendent Seegrave may become more spirited further into the read.
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Can we begin to suggest suspects? How about Lady Verinder? After what the diamond has done to the family, she doesn't want it in the house.
Right now, as witnessed from my previous posts, I’ll flop around like a fish-out-of-water on who the suspect is [suspects are]. *LOL* I’m not skilled in rooting out the villain so soon in the mystery. In other words, I need more evidence. *S*
But I’ll bite anyway on placing Lady Verinder as suspect. From my perspective she doesn’t present as a prominent suspect. But accessibility, influence over Rachel lends to her taking the diamond, though only in protection of her family. She could have insisted that the diamond be removed from the house by Franklin, upon her daughter’s inheritance. So still begging the question, why steal it?
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Well, someone has taken the diamond from its hiding place. A number of people know where it was hidden for the night. Can we rule out Rachel herself? She's acting very strange, isn't she? When she turned down Godfrey's proposal, it seemed she was choosing Franklin. (She only has cousins to choose from? What is the rush? When a girl turns 18, she needs to find a husband?) But suddenly she's furious with him. What has happened between them? Wilkie seems to be pointing to Franklin, but he's a little too obvious. Maybe all of the suspects were in on the disappearance of the diamond in some way. :D
Have we completely ruled out the Indians? They couldn't have entered the house. Betteredge had checked all the locks - and let those dogs loose! Police Superintendent Seegrave seems to think the servants might have been acting with the Indians. NOBODY wants to get their hands on that diamond as badly as the Indians do!
Hmm... Seegrave is local and knows the people involved, but I am losing confidence in his abilities...just as Franklin is.
I was interested in one of the questions in the heading...
2. What recent event of that time would have made the three Indians particularly sinister to Collins' readers?
Do you have any idea? Was this mentioned - and I forgot? Hoping to find something of the recent relations between the British and the Indians, I came up with this information on the Indian Revolt of 1857, just a few years before Wilkie wrote his novel -
(http://0.tqn.com/d/history1800s/1/5/s/A/-/-/Indian-mutiny-fighting-3000-gty.jpg)
The Sepoy Mutiny was a violent and very bloody uprising against British rule in India in 1857. It is also known by other names: the Indian Mutiny, the Indian Rebellion of 1857, or the Indian Revolt of 1857. During the uprising, women and children were butchered in cold blood and their bodies bodies were flung into a well.
"Never in our history had such a cry for vengeance arisen as when the story of that hideous crime was told."
The mutiny brought the end of the old order. It convinced the government at home that the time had definitely come for ending the old East India Company and transferring the government of India to the Crown." http://history1800s.about.com/od/thebritishempire/ss/The-Sepoy-Mutiny.htm
I'm not sure how this would have figured into WilkieC's story - but perhaps it explains the suspicion that the Indians, if not "jugglers," were persons of interest to the Police...and possibly "sinister" to everyone else... How dangerous do you think they are if unable to retrieve the diamond?
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Right, JoanP. The Sepoy Mutiny doesn't figure in Collins' story, but it affected the attitude of the British public toward Indians; they were even more likely than before to be thought of as murderous and dangerous.
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JoanP: That's am amazing picture.
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That's an excellent link, JoanP, clear and concise. In addition to the dramatic picture you posted here, the one on page 3 of the article, an Englishwoman defending herself during the mutiny, is very amusing. Notice the murderous look of the Indian at the lower right.
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Right. The doors were all locked and the dogs let loose. It had to be an 'inside job.' Franklin, I believe, suggests someone, one of the Indians, may have been hiding under a bed and then exited through a window, but it's determined that was unlikely.
Every reader must have had a vivid memory of the atrocities committed by the rebellious sepoys. That was a traumatic event in British Empire history. Actually there is not a hint of it in the book. Is there? When the butler Betteredge thinks foreign, he thinks German, Italian and French, in the unEnglish thinking he finds in Franklin.
Why Rachel's fury in her relationship with Franklin? Good question. The two of them were having such fun with their art work on the door. Working well together.
Her mother turned her brother away when he came to share the fun of the birthday party. She didn't want him in the house. Much less would she want his cursed diamond within a million miles. Perhaps she conspired with another servant to remove it. Throw it into the quicksand for example. As they would have said in the family: trouble follows it around. We heard all about it in the Prologue. The book, after all, is an attempt to get to the bottom of it all.
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I could see Lady V. conspiring with the Indians...to get the diamond and all of its implications out of the their lives, out of their house - back to India...
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[...]Maybe all of the suspects were in on the disappearance of the diamond in some way. :D
NOW!! There is a strong probability... ;)
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2. What recent event of that time would have made the three Indians particularly sinister to Collins' readers?
Do you have any idea? Was this mentioned - and I forgot? Hoping to find something of the recent relations between the British and the Indians, I came up with this information on the Indian Revolt of 1857, just a few years before Wilkie wrote his novel - […]
I thought it was Frybaby who mentioned this war, or one like it. Sadly, I cannot locate the post – quickly – to support my claim. :-\
Any how, when answering that question myself, I noted this skirmish as reason for hostilities between the two cultures: ”A colonized India served as the main base for Britain’s international trade across the Asian continent, during the late 1800’s; specifically the East India Company. At the time of this writing (1868), Indians were fighting to regain their country back from the Brits, so were not trusted due to adverse allegiances between the two cultures.”
In my experience distrust can develop into prejudice. :'(
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little. How, and with what result, you shall presently see."
April 21-25: The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative.
Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg) |
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For Your Consideration
April 21-25 : Through section XXIII, to End of First Period
1. What is your initial reaction to Sergeant Cuff? What devices does Collins use with Cuff that you see reflected in later mystery story detectives?
2. Why does Cuff say "Nobody has stolen the diamond"?
3. Do you think we have heard the last of the Shivering Sands? Is Collins' use of them as a plot device effective?
4. In the story of Rosanna, the ugly maid, how is Collins ahead of his time? How not?
5. Can you think of anything that would account for Rachel and Rosanna's behavior other than Cuff's theory?
6. What do you think is in Rosanna's sealed letter?
7. What do you think of Betteredge's methods of "handling women?
8. Betteredge: "People in high life have all the luxuries to themselves--among others, the luxury of indulging their feelings." This is part of a strain that runs through the book. Have you noticed such ideas elsewhere in the book?
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
That's an excellent link, JoanP, clear and concise. In addition to the dramatic picture you posted here, the one on page 3 of the article, an Englishwoman defending herself during the mutiny, is very amusing. Notice the murderous look of the Indian at the lower right.
Yep, from the picture I can imagine the level of hostilities of that period between the 2 cultures. ;)
OH! I get to lead a new page too!!! ;D
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Why Rachel's fury in her relationship with Franklin? Good question. The two of them were having such fun with their art work on the door. Working well together.
Just vocalizing some mental ramblings: I suspect Franklin asked Rachel to allow and be part of a deceit, and then not letting Lady Verinder, her mother, in on the hoax either. From what Betteredge has said about Rachel, she is not a woman easily influenced.
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The plot thickens. A lot happens in this section; some mysteries are cleared up, and some made even more mysterious. We start with the appearance of Sergeant Cuff on the scene. How does he strike you? Will he solve the case?
There are some new questions at the top of this page.
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Sergeant Cuff seems very focused without appearing so at first glance.
Re Betteredge: He reminds me a lot of Carson on Downton Abbey. He is very defensive of Miss Rachel, just as Carson showed same and favoritism regarding Mary.
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For those interested in the relationship between The Moonstone and Robinson Crusoe you can get the whole introduction to my book by putting into Google the following:
Karl,Frederick R(2002)"Introduction".The Moonstone.
This introduction deals with many aspects of the novel without giving away any information on the perpetrator.
It seems that Mr. Karl was a widely respected Literary critic and writer who is well known in circles which I usually don't frequent.
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Re: Sargeant Cuff and his personality as a prototype to the thousands of Detectives that followed in his footsteps, we see the use of his interest in Roses as the softer side of his personality. He is not only brilliant, logical and cool but also a human being with a multi-faceted personality. One that draws us to him and makes him charming rather than just "a brain".
We see in Sherlock Holmes his love of the violin (and cocaine).
" " in Sargeant Morse his love of classical music (and Alcohol).
" " in Miss Marple her caring attitude to all and sundry (and her knitting).
Wilkie Collins made the model and till today many good writers use his characters two sided personality , showing strength ,softness and weakness together with a brilliant analytical mind.
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And in Hurcule Poirot his determination to retire and grow "vegetable marrows." I always wondered about that -- it seemed so un-Hurcule Poirot-like.
What ARE vegetable marrows, anyway? was Agatha Christie laughing at Collins?
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Notice that we haven't given a whole week to this section -- only through Thursday. We think that's enough: it isn't as rich as the first section, and we're used to B's rambling prose.
But we can take longer if needed.
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JUDE: " well known in circles which I usually don't frequent." Nor do I (nor wish to). Thanks for the intro. When PatH was here, she discovered that I owned that edition of "The Moonstone." (It's a wise woman who knows what's in her bookcases -- I apparently don't qualify!)
Off to read the intro.
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Joan K
Being of English heritage I know that marrows are our Zuchinni. That includes both the yellow and green types. They are easy to grow and give BUMPER crops. Usually so many that you and all your neighbors never want to see one again.
I called Morse Sargeant but he is really better known as Inspector Morse. We were in England when he died and the whole country went into mourning. I was amazed at the love and respect for "our Inspector Morse" that the Brits showed.
Anyone who has not read Colin Dexter's Morse novels has a wonderful treat awaiting them.
The TV versions were also enthralling.
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Back later today - just caught up on all the posts since I was last here - my last was post number 151 -
I remember reading in the "French Lieutenants Woman" ... there were over 50,000 prostitutes in the streets of London in the 1860's, ... and from the numbers they determine how many times a week your Victorian gentleman should get laid. and so collecting prostitutes in the streets at night must have been easy pickings for anyone wanting to convert a 'sinner'.
This historical phenomenon must still have legs in British Culture - I am thinking of the recent PBS series The Land Girls and one of the principles was essentially a London prostitute who the naive local minister falls for and they end up with her seeing the goodness and getting married.
Since we are not linking to the Victorian site, with so many spoilers there is on that site the article the Collins wrote for Dickens' Newspaper about India. He is very complementary and accepting of the Indian people - the article was written a few years after the 1857 mutiny of the Sepoys [Indians in the British army] however, most of Britain was horrified as they should be over the mass killing and loss of their own but they did seem to carry it further as today, so many here in the US cannot tolerate any Muslim.
Hadn't realized the boy was a medium - just thought he was acting in deference to an older man and not trying to tip his hand so he could assure himself of the care he was receiving. I think he saw the Indians as good people and would not be coming from the mindset of many of the readers. However, that contrast of and old man, dark complexioned with black hair versus a very blond haired youth is like in a painting, drawing our eyes to the underlying conflict maybe??!!??
Not sure if the conflict is in the story or a devise Collins uses to attract the readers who he knows mostly carry a negative view of the Indians - is this a device to make us suspect the Indians are inscrutable and secretive as they had in secret pulled off the 1857 mutiny therefore, they are at the bottom or the stolen jewel because, the young blond boy standing as still as a statue is like an angle or a Christian church statue - worthy next to God as the religion of the day suggests to the English and as compared to this strange Hindu sect.
I even wonder if the English would have frowned at any holy object being decorated with such value - too much like the Catholics that were also showing too much pomp and valuable decoration. I wonder if this is justifying a viewpoint that the jewel is nothing more than an archeological find rather than part of a holy symbol and therefore, the English are justified in keeping the jewel. I am seeing tons in that image of the young blond boy receiving attention from the old dark skinned man.
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That's a striking image, Barb--the fair-haired boy and the dark man. There are other examples of foreignness to watch for in the book.
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It's awfully quite today. Is everyone madly reading?
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My first impression of Sergeant Cuff is adornment. Then he’s a stoic, commanding figure, oozing confidence in finding thieves, killers and other seedy riff-raff. Then to discover a feminine gentleness bestowed upon nature’s beauties, roses! I laughed at the imagery, but held this man in greater esteem given his comfortable masculinity. And I love his idea of grass walks around roses, it accents their beauty.
Throughout the read he maintains that commanding, intimidating presence even when verbally attacked by Lady Verinder, Franklin or Betteredge. I am thoroughly impressed with his detecting skills and process of elimination. And his reason for believing the stone was not stolen is in apart, I think, because of the lack of evidence leading towards theft, and then I believe he suspects another motive for its disappearance too.
I continue to be in awe of the Shivering Sands, and definitely an excellent plot device to my way of thinking. It’s a suitable hiding place for the stone or any other evidence for that matter.
However I don’t believe the paint smudge under the door lock was done by a petticoat or dress. It’s too narrow a focus for anything of great bulk to perform. Dresses of the period possessed yards of cloth. While the thief opens the door I can imagine a corner of a pillow case or towel creating a smear in that location easy enough.
Not even half way through the book - my layout is a WORD document - I’m further surprised by Sgt. Cuff’s announcement of who is responsible for the stone’s disappearance and the why for it. But presume there will be a twist sometime soon, as I’ve too many remaining pages to finish. :D
I am heart broken to read that Rosanna killed herself by drowning in the Shivering Sands. It’s a horrible way to die… drowning. It’s my greatest fear for sure, along with tiny enclosed spaces or extreme heights. It’s not the dying I fear, but the lingering and/or pain association with it. But I can’t help but wonder – did Rosanna really die there or was it a set up. This is a mystery… :) As for her letter to the Mrs. Yollands, it could be a multitude of messages. If I were to believe Rosanna dead, it could be a letter of thanks for her kindness and friendship. If I were to believe the death a ruse, it could be a letter with further instructions or thanks for aiding in the ploy.
Then I’m confused by Lady Verinder’s negative reaction towards Sgt Cuff. She never struck me as someone to be bothered by anything or any body.
As proven by the following quote, Betteredge’s handling of women is not surprising given this period piece. “I suspected what was the matter readily enough. But it is a maxim of mine that men (being superior creatures) are bound to improve women—if they can. When a woman wants me to do anything (my daughter, or not, it doesn't matter), I always insist on knowing why. The oftener you make them rummage their own minds for a reason, the more manageable you will find them in all the relations of life. It isn't their fault (poor wretches!) that they act first and think afterwards; it's the fault of the fools who humour them.” - page 95
Then our Book Discussion Leaders’ question 8: Betteredge: "People in high life have all the luxuries to themselves--among others, the luxury of indulging their feelings." This is part of a strain that runs through the book. Have you noticed such ideas elsewhere in the book?
Emotional luxuries could not be afforded by those surviving on the streets or those working class peoples. Weaknesses were a road to setback, ruin or worse, death. So “sucking up” what emotion emanates and pushing steadfastly forward kept them alive…and employed. A good example of the “stiff-upper-lip” is when Betteredge confronts Rosanna about Franklin’s rejecting her to Sergeant Cuff in the garden. page 96 of my reading:
“It doesn't matter," she answered. "I shan't trouble Mr. Franklin, to-day."
"Why not speak to my lady?" I said. "The way to relieve your mind is to speak to the merciful and Christian mistress who has always been kind to you."
She looked at me for a moment with a grave and steady attention, as if she was fixing what I said in her mind. Then she took the broom out of my hands and moved off with it slowly, a little way down the corridor.
"No," she said, going on with her sweeping, and speaking to herself; "I know a better way of relieving my mind than that."
"What is it?"
"Please to let me go on with my work."
Penelope followed her, and offered to help her.
She answered, "No. I want to do my work. Thank you, Penelope." She looked round at me. "Thank you, Mr. Betteredge."
There was no moving her—there was nothing more to be said. I signed to Penelope to come away with me. We left her, as we had found her, sweeping the corridor, like a woman in a dream.”
My last curiosity is in this instance, when Sgt Cuff makes three predictions, I strongly suspect Rachel’s true purpose is handing the stone over to the 3 Indians. To rid her family of the curse, but to return property that rightfully belongs to India.
"First," said the Sergeant, "you will hear something from the Yollands—when the postman delivers Rosanna's letter at Cobb's Hole, on Monday next." […] "In the second place," proceeded the Sergeant, "you will hear of the three Indians again. You will hear of them in the neighbourhood, if Miss Rachel remains in the neighbourhood. You will hear of them in London, if Miss Rachel goes to London." […] "Third, and last," said Sergeant Cuff, "you will, sooner or later, hear something of that money-lender in London, whom I have twice taken the liberty of mentioning already. Give me your pocket-book, and I'll make a note for you of his name and address—so that there may be no mistake about it if the thing really happens."
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It's awfully quite today. Is everyone madly reading?
Yes, I was madly reading and formulating my view points. :D
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Me too. I've been reading madly, like Pamela. I only wish I had her view point formulating skills. So many facts to take into account. Betteredge seems to be a fairly reliable witness to what occurred, but he's too bewildered about keeping the family reputation intact to be entirely objective. He does make it interesting. By the way, Pamela, who do you think is the more masculine, Sergeant Cuff or Betteredge? Isn't it interesting that it's the Sergeant's melancholy that's mentioned so often by the butler?
Cuff can't believe that the diamond was stolen. No crime has been committed. Rachel must have a good reason for not wanting a policeman around. Given the diamond's history and evil influence perhaps she just wants it to disappear. She's leaving and taking the diamond with her.
Rosanna's tragic life and death seems to be a subplot in Betteredge's story. I don't want to think red herring, but she doesn't fit into the probable conspiracies to have the diamond disappear. Betteredge is certainly protective along with his notions of improving the female sex. It must have driven his wife around the bend. He's so pleased that daughter Penelope has her father's good qualities. Not her mother's.
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I can't help thinking that the autor knew that most of his readers were women. He makes too much fun of his male characters for it to be otherwise. He certainly wasn't trying to inform his male readers. Was he?
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It was Franklin who brought the police into the problem of the missing jewel, both the local man and then the detective from London. That would establish his innocence of any theft. And it explains Rachel's anger.
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Sgt Cuff -- Columbo with the raincoat
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[...] By the way, Pamela, who do you think is the more masculine, Sergeant Cuff or Betteredge?
In my book, both gentlemen possess an interesting and equal level of masculine quality. To my eye, neither is below or above the other however, I would favor Sgt Cuff as I confess a fetish for law enforcement (I’m married to a man who is a retired Deputy Sheriff). :P
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Sgt Cuff -- Columbo with the raincoat
Yes! He does have that air about him, huh? :D
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I can't help thinking that the autor knew that most of his readers were women. He makes too much fun of his male characters for it to be otherwise. He certainly wasn't trying to inform his male readers. Was he?
First let me confess, proudly, to enjoy reading historical romance novels. Heck! I love romance novels in any genre. ;) 8)
From my stand point, this is not a very romantic novel instead a strong mystery. Like a good mystery the genre takes center stage, and the romance in “The Moonstone” is not center stage. The romance here is what I call back story, to lighten heavy moments or to just add an intriguing “alter-element” to the reading experience.
Collin’s does seem to pick a part the male characters, and then extols the merits of the women. Even Rosanna garners sympathy, though an ugly and fallen woman, but one to be kind to, protective towards nonetheless. I wonder if Collins believes this is what a romance novel should do: make fun of the polished, clever natures of men while exalting the delicate though chaotic dispositions of women.
So is “The Moonstone” a peek into what 19th century women would have enjoyed in romantic literature? I don’t think so, because as I mentioned before it was very much a mystery, very little romance.
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Great points today.
Collins "does seem to pick a part the male characters, and then extols the merits of the women." (Pamela)
I hadn't noticed that, but you're right! I think more than just that his readers were women:he seemed to genuinely feel for women's position.
But wait til next week, when he picks apart Miss Clack!
Definately Columbo!
And a theory from Jonathan: Rachel is mad at Franklin for calling the police. We all seem to think that Rachel took the moonstine, right?
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In the introduction by Frederick carl, he says:
"The Shivering Sands is a kind of metaphor for life itself, waiting to grab off the unwary, ever-present beyond the pleasant reaches of the estate..... Out there, beyond civilization, lie enigmas."
What do you think?
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[…] But wait til next week, when he picks apart Miss Clack!
OH! Really? ;D
[…] And a theory from Jonathan: Rachel is mad at Franklin for calling the police. We all seem to think that Rachel took the moonstine, right?
After this week’s reading, yea, Collins definitely left that impression upon me; that Rachel has the stone. And Jonathan’s observation is right on target too, explaining Rachel’s hostility towards Franklin. And his obvious distress over her anger too was quite tangible, heart wrenching even.
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In the introduction by Frederick carl, he says:
"The Shivering Sands is a kind of metaphor for life itself, waiting to grab off the unwary, ever-present beyond the pleasant reaches of the estate..... Out there, beyond civilization, lie enigmas."
What do you think?
Yes, I agree with Carl’s statement about the Shivering Sands, especially the part, “…waiting to grab off the unwary…” The quicksand also reminds me of getting suck into negative rhetoric, narrow dogmas, and the like; only to drown in the onslaught.
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Isn't Collins a manipulator, though! Amazing the way he can lead us into believing one thing, and the next moment he tosses us a few images, (the tears in Franklin's eyes, for example) and we are certain of the opposite.
Pamela, why are you so sure this is not a romance? Have you given up on Franklin's love for Rachel?
Clearly Superintendent Seegrave is inept...was botching the investigation until "The great Cuff " came on the scene from London. Sergeant Cuff seems to know from the very beginning that the diamond has not been stolen. How does he know this? I will be disappointed if this is not revealed when all is said and done.
I 'm loving the relationship, the tension and the respect between Cuff and Gabriel. I can guess who you like the best, but if you had to select Collins' main character in the novel, who would it be?
ps Had a most unpleasant day off yesterday - too exhausted to do much of anything after that. I hope to read preceding posts this afternoon and see where we are before commenting further...
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In this delightful novel I personally find that the MOONSTONE is secondaryto the fascinating characters.
It seems like a Merry-Go-Round . Each character is paid attention to as they roll by. We know they will reappear but for that particular second our glance is on someone else.
The Moonstone is the mechanism which moves the Merry-Go-Round but it is not seen . It's music is heard. This music attracts people from near and far to come to stare and wonder..to ride or just to watch?
Some watch calmly, some jump aboard, sitting on the curlicued seats, others jump on stationery horses while the most courageous jump on those horses that are in movement----up and down and around.
While standing around we can titter about the argument re: the dog roses or wonder about the paint smudge.
Yes there are differences between men and women but some men are weak and some women are strong and vice-versa.
To me this seems like a fun day away and the issue of the moonstone is as theoretical as the tides.
Only the shivering sands give us a taste of true reality.
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I'm finding a lot of romance in something like this from section XIX (page 163):
'Then I saw the raging sea, and the rollers tumbling in on the sand-bank, and the driven rain sweeping over the waters like a flying garment, and the yellow wildernes of the beach with one solitary black figure standing on it - the figure of Sergeant Cuff.'
The two men realize that the sands have swallowed up the maid Rosanna. Betteredge is horrified, and continues to describe his feelings:
'I tried to tell him of the fear that had frozen me up. I tried to say, 'The death she has died, Sergeant, was a death of her own seeking.' No! the words wouldn't come. The dumb trembling held me in its grip. I couldn't feel the driving rain. I couldn't see the rising tide. As in the vision of a dream the poor lost creature came back before me. I saw her again as I had seen her in the past time - on the morning when I went to fetch her into the house. I heard her again, telling me that the Shivering Sand seem to draw her to it against her will and wondering whether her grave was waiting for her there. The horror struck at me, in some unfathomable way, through my own child. My girl was just her age. My girl, tried as Rosanna was tried, might have lived that miserable life, and died this dreadful death.'
Collins's romance is in the new wave of feeling and thinking that came into literary things with the romantic poets earlier in the century. Unusual aesthetic and emotional adventure along with love. You know what I mean?
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Delightful. Thanks Jude. You also see the romance in it. Better than I do.
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Isn't Collins a manipulator, though! Amazing the way he can lead us into believing one thing, and the next moment he tosses us a few images, (the tears in Franklin's eyes, for example) and we are certain of the opposite.
Pamela, why are you so sure this is not a romance? Have you given up on Franklin's love for Rachel?
Oh! I would never give up on Franklin's love for Rachel. ;D I'm just accustom to romance stories taking a stronger, dominate lead; its the foundation. In this instance the mystery feels like the foundation, over powering [shadowing] the romantic elements.
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Sublet hints along the way tell us why women are featured with deference - it is a women's domain - from the time Miss Julia marries Sir John with the expression "she took him to the church" suggesting she is not without control over his property which is not what an unmarried women has to show for her status regardless how beloved. - Then we have the exchange showing what may be typical for the lower class but probably speaks to the underlying theme of marriage where Gabriel Betteredge marries as an economical advantage as he voices during his proposal, he no longer has to pay a women to clean and cook and take care of his sexual needs.
We know this is a time when women had few rights and only financially taken care of by a father or husband and according to birth order and other inheritance she may have received can she be secure. The comment by Penelope that a women only has her character is the truth of the day. Hearing how Betteredge speaks of the character of the men, it appears that being forceful and standing up under difficult circumstance while being thoughtful and proper is a measure of character therefore, the women are showing their character within their domain which is the home/estate and for Julia she expanded her control to include the farming aspects of the estate.
None of the women have a job - they are not lawyers or members of the House of Lords or any number of prestige working positions, other than the female house servants and so, the house is like a corporate factory - it appears to me, just as we would expect a story set within the confines of a well run factory we would expect to hear good things about those running and working for the success of the corporation. So too, I can see the success of an estate/house is run by competent leadership and effective workers who are spoken about with respect, allegiance and admiration.
How much fun that Collins includes some of Kent when Mr. Franklin is discussing the Moonstone with Betteredge near the Shivering Sands - The German Kant's work bridges the two dominant philosophical schools in the 18th century: 1) rationalism, which held that knowledge could be attained by reason alone [a priori] prior to experience, and 2) empiricism, which held that knowledge could be arrived at only through the senses [a posteriori] after experience. Kant's solution - while we could know particular facts only by sensory experience, we could know the form they must take prior to any experience.
While in France we have at the time the Religion of Humanity started by Auguste Comte that says, feminine values embodied the triumph of sentiment and morality. This view is not the values admired by our Betteredge but does explain better Franklin and Rachel working together on the painted door.
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Not fond so far of Mr. Murthwaite - I think he knows too much and then for Franklin and Betteredge to give him so much information made me uncomfortable - still have not finished this week reading so I may be jumping the gun. Looked up his name and the history of Murthwaite is Scandinavian and means essentially a clearing or open place in a woodland, a meadow. So maybe he is a character to enlighten among the heavy characters with their secrets.
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Looks like the first modern rose, a hybrid, the Tea Rose was produced in 1867 so that the bulk of the roses in Lady Verinder's Rosary would have been 'Old Garden Roses.'
Sergeant Cuff reminds me more of Dickens' Tulkinghorn than Charles F. Fields
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Now that you mention it, I was interested that Cuff and the gardener were debating the merits of grafting the newer (hybrids?) roses onto common stock, the premise being that the "base" or root stock can withstand diseases like root fungus better than the more delicate hybrids/varieties.
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Barbara - ah yes, Dickens' Tulkinghorn in Bleak House... he seemed to have all the answers too. Not as likable as Sergeant Cuff though... (Do YOU think Cuff is likable...or just competant?)
From the moment Sergeant Cuff's interest moved from the house to the rose garden, I've been expecting something to be revealed there. The gardener seems competant enough - but how does he explain the gravel paths, when Cuff feels so strongly against such a practice? How long has the gravel been on the paths, I wondered.
And Franklin...this garden his favorite place to stroll.... Do you expect we'll be returning there before the story ends?
Fry, when Sergeant was arguing with the gardener about the merits of grafting... I went back to reread more about this - in context...
--"Good night, Mr. Betteredge," he said. "And mind, if you ever take to growing roses, the white moss rose is all the better for not being budded on the dog rose, whatever the gardener may say to the contrary!"
--"What are you doing here?" I asked. "Why are you not in your proper bed?"
--"I am not in my proper bed," answered the Sergeant, "because I am one of the many people in this miserable world who can't earn their money honestly and easily at the same time."
How did you understand the last part of his response?
And then there's the tune he whistles when he gets one clue closer to the truth - "The Last Rose of Summer." (A very sad song, isn't it?) Will we learn more about Cuff, do you think? I feel I'm in the hands of a master storyteller.
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Now I'm really confused...not at all how I pictured the rosery behind the Verinder estate...although they DO resemble one another!
(http://images.meredith.com/bhg/images/2006/03/p_BHG197481.jpg)
Moss Rose (Portulaca grandiflora) I never considered the Portulaca a rose
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Rosa_canina_flower_Luc_Viatour.JPG)
Rosa canina is a variable climbing wild rose species native to Europe, northwest Africa and western Asia. It is a deciduous shrub normally ranging in height from 1–5 m, though sometimes it can scramble higher into the crowns of taller trees.
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I think this better explains the moss rose in the book
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/ezine.php?publicationID=216&js=0
I actually never heard of Portulaca being called moss rose. Rosa canina is the dog rose of the book, very sturdy root stock.
The Last Rose of Summer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nc55QYn970
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JoanP the moss rose you found is an annual and so I think Collins is talking about the old fashioned roadside wild rose that we also call a moss rose, although I do not think that is its formal name.
But yes the grafting - I wondered if that was meant as an analogy to Godfrey from new money being grafted onto the old respected titled family.
And Franklin is turning into a dark horse isn't he - what is the secret he and Rachel are at odds about. And if Rosanna was going to kill herself I do not understand why she was even introduced into the story - so far I can see nothing she added only a filler to help us see behavior of and to the poor even if trying to help them out of their misery. If pretty and without a deformed shoulder she still would not be an acceptable wife for Franklin regardless his Bohemian education. Was she a secret assistant to Rachel and there is something else going on? What were the chains all about and the box she purchased from her friends in town? And yes, the gravel path could easily cover anything buried.
According to the Encyclopedia of Traditional Symbols the suggestion of grass could represent grass is a symbol for unsefulness and submission and a handfull of grass is victory, conquest of land, surrender. However, while gravel is not a symbolic word when reading, it is made up of crushed stones and then we can see there can be a connection to the split Rock precipice creating the Bay.
Now those coastal rock or stone does have symbolic meaning of permanence, stability coldness and hardness and as dual rocks they would be considered a celestial doorway giving access to another realm such as Christ is the rock, the source of living waters since we have the sea gushing daily between the split rocks signifies the waters of salvation - BUT then we have a split or broken stone signifying death and GET This, various jewels not only have life-giving properties but turned into sacred stones in a Lunar cult, symbolizes the moon as an ally to both fertility and coldness. In all nomadic and hunting tribes, stones are the 'bones of Mother Earth'
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Aha - a Franklin is a medieval land owner - and within the Chaucer tales we have the Franklin Tales that includes the story of Dorigen and Aurelius - bits and pieces seem to match Franklin, Rachel, Rosanna the coastal rocks -
http://thebestnotes.com/booknotes/Canterbury_Tales/Canterbury_Tales29.html
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little. How, and with what result, you shall presently see."
April 21-25: The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative.
April 26-May 1: SECOND PERIOD: first two narratives:Miss Clack and Mr. Bruff
Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg) |
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For Your Consideration
April 26-May 1: SECOND PERIOD: first two narratives: Miss Clack and Mr. Bruff
1. Does Collins do a good job of changing voices with his various narrators or do they all sound the same? Does the device of having different narrators work well? Where else have you seen it used? Successfully or not?
2. If you have read Dickens, how does his criticism of women philanthropists compare to Collins'? Which is more apt? Do you feel these criticisms were justified?
3. Why did Rachel accept Godfrey's proposal? Do you agree with her scruples in the way she declines later?
4. We have compared Sergeant Cuff to Mr. Tulkinghorn, the lawyer in Bleak House. How does the lawyer Mr. Bruff compare to Tulkinghorn?
5. Mr. Murthwaite says "the clairvoyance in this case is simply a development of the romantic side of the Indian character." What do you think is Collins' view of clairvoyance? Of the Indian character?
6. Most of the characters are at least somewhat religious. Which ones are sincere? hypocritical? self-serving? What do you think is Collins’ attitude?
7. Did this section change your mind about the solution to the mystery?
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Oh, Barb....Your novel is so much deeper and symbolic than Collins work.
If only you had been his adviser we would have had a serious and weighty tome.
As it is, I think, the novel was measnt to arouse curiosity and was writteen for a "Weekly", with wide consumption.
Somehow Dickens managed to inject the depth, breadth and seriousness into this form. But as yet, Collins has given us a
"Sensational" as they called it at the time.
However we have read only half the book so the other half may prove me wrong.
Remember, most of the readers of that time (and even now) had only a smidgin of the education you have.
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JudeS I have spoken to many an author who say where they do not write conscious of the symbolism they see their choices instinctive as right and then later see how the symbolism matches.
We also, have several encyclopedias that explain to us the symbolism in Literature and so it seems to me a story can be fuller if we use our resources.
I do not think I am creating a story, rather, only seeing the fullness of the work of Collins, written for a newspaper, published and edited by Dickens which was the more profitable during this time. However, neither author are slouches that have been relegated to the banal likes of newspaper or magazine stories that are 'less than' compared to those published in book form. We still have many well respected authors who write their stories in magazines. We know a good author does not include anything in his story that could be removed so the tidbits help us with the richness of the author's craft. And so in that light here is more.
Been trying to figure out the location Collins is using to place the Verinder Estate - it has to be fictitious - there is a Frizinghall, England which is a village in Yorkshire 175 miles (281km) north west of London and in the west part of Leeds. however, this is too far inland to be near any Cobb's Hole. So far what I am finding is that in 1861 Collins vacationed in Yorkshire and places he stayed or visited are thought to be the setting.
However, I wanted to track down the story of Rosanna and her chains - Chains are symbolic to St. Leonard, an early Frankish noble whose story in a nutshell is he goes to King Clovis I and asks if he can free some deserving prisoners and slaves - his work is lorded and as a nobleman's son he could receive some high office but declines to become a monk. He is the patron saint of prisoners and women in labor [hmm that has been a gnawing thought about our Rachel] Any how where he is venerated along the routes to Santiago in Spain, Britain also has its share in the Leonard story. In Essex is Leonard's Forest, also dedicated to St. Leonard is a church in Kent, several churches in the West Midlands and the White Ladies Priory, a ruined Augustinian house. The largest hospital in northern mediaeval England was an Augustinian foundation dedicated to St. Leonard, in York.
And so where the chains of our Rosanna my not further the detective mystery the choice of chains is emblematic if we see her as being saved from prison suggesting a rope would not further the tale.
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BARB: "But yes the grafting - I wondered if that was meant as an analogy to Godfrey from new money being grafted onto the old respected titled family."
That's a good thought. I'll bet you're right. So Collins, who is so sympathetic to working men and women, doesn't want them marrying the nobility.
Actrually, it may be the rising middle class (represented by Godfrey) that he resents. The working class, he can appreciate: they stay in their "place" and are no threat, so he can get sentimental about them. But the middle class is too close for comfort. We saw that in Dickens as well, where a lawyer of no family is ridiculed because he actually has the temerity to think he could marry into the upper class!!!
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Actually I rather liked the Franklin/Chaucer thought. Collins would almost certainly have read Chaucer.
And what an interesting thought about the grafting of the roses - new money marrying into old.
BTW, Barb, do you think Collins used allegory in his writings? Probably a lot of authors use it as some point in their writings, don't you think? I don't mean whole books like Aesop's Fables or Undine, but scattered bits here and there. The bottom of this page has a paragraph on how to analyze allegory. Wihs
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/examples-of-allegory-in-literature.html I kind of wish I had seen that before reading Undine.
JoanK, do you think that the Ladies Charities really needed a man to lead them? They still thought women couldn't possibly have a head for business back then did't they.
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Actrually, it may be the rising middle class (represented by Godfrey) that he resents.
JoanK makes you wonder since Better...edge is for Godfrey and sees his character as closer to his ideal he is sure making a class distinction - Since everything i read suggest Collins came from a privileged background maybe he is writing with the awareness of slurs he sees, not so much in England but this is when Europe is in an uproar as the average push for more representation in both Germany and in France.
do you think that the Ladies Charities really needed a man to lead them?
Not just in the mid nineteenth century but in the late 20th and early 21st - I was furious and never went back - we had a wonderful successful Woman's Council of Real Estate that in the nineties a few mortgage and title company guys joined. Next thing I know in turn they are elected as presidents - I was shocked, angry and dismayed - there are still a few guys in the group who are handed hook line and sinker some of the leadership roles. sheesh.
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Sheesh is right! Of course they don't! But I guess Collins thought they did.(and some women, too, I gues).
He does have rachel be a strong-minded woman. But notice how often he mentions how unusual she is!
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Remember tomorrow's the last day on this section, so get in your comments. For Friday, we'll read the section narrated by Miss Clack and the one narrated by Mr. Bruff.
Is anyone having trouble keeping up? I think you'll enjoy the next section, if you haven't read it.
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Getting to the end of Betteredge's account of the moonstone mystery he has Franklin saying:
'When I came here from London with that horrible Diamond', he said, 'I don't believe there was a happier household in England than this. Look at the household now! Scattered, disunited - the very air of the place poisoned with mystery and suspicion! Do you remember that morning at the Shivering Sand, when we talked about my uncle Herncastle, and his birthday gift? The Moonstone has served the Colonel's vengeance,, by means which the Colonel himself never dreamt of !'
After which, Franklin, too, packs his bags and leaves. Asked by Betteredge where he is going, he replies: Going? I am going to the devil!'. Even the pony is startled, 'as if he had felt a Christian horror of it.'
Betteredge: 'I kept my spirits from sinking by sticking fast to my pipe and my Robinson Crusoe.'
The book is a commentary on nineteenth century attitudes and feelings about many things, including class and gender. What would the readers have made of the doctors remedy for the distraught Rachel? 'She had better be amused. Flower-shows, opera balls - there was a whole round of gaieties in prospect; and Rachel, to her mother's astonishment, eagerly took to it all.'
And I'm astonished at the hidden meanings that can be found in everything. It's true. Authors write stuff they're hardly conscious of. Directed by the muses, of course. It was astonishing to read that Collins himself was so caught up in what her was writing that he forgot his gout and even his dying mother.
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Imagine not 50 years but nearly 150 years to only hear, as if in life the witness to the story with no reports of hear-say. Wow, it seems Collins hoped for a story that would be read for the next 50 years but I bet he never imagined 146 years we would still be asked to respect Betteredge as a witness - and yes, he is a proper companion - I must say at the first I was confused thinking Betteredge was supposed to be an Indian house servant much like Queen Victoria's Abdul Karim - it took me over a chapter to realize he was an Englishman Butler.
And so we are left to contemplate a description of Good and Evil - hmmm and here I thought a simple mystery of a stolen or lost diamond that was stolen by an Englishman and somehow was being returned to the forehead of its original religious statuary.
I had not noticed till you wrote it out Jonathan that within his two sentences Franklin goes from Evil to Christian Horror - hmm wonder if that is an example of the Good and Evil referred to by Betteredge. Well he may be content and patient to learn what happens next with his pipe and his copy of Robinson Crusoe but smoking is not my thing and I did not find Robinson Crusoe to be as filled with Biblical advise as Betteredge does - I kinda like the prescription given to Rachel but then I am too curious to go skipping out with friends - and so at this late hour I think I will open some wine and read on seeing if the story discovers and shares the truth.
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Does anyone's book include one of those charts that show how family members are related - I am getting confused - there were the 3 daughters and 2 sons of which one is the guy who while serving in India and after an attack steals the stone that was set in a Dagger - what ever happened to the dagger and I thought Blake was a cousin and then somewhere it indicated he was the other brother - Blake was not ever going to speak to him after seeing him steal the dagger but ends up being his solicitor who helps administer his will - but again if he is a cousin than what who is and what happened to the other brother.
OK I got it that John is married to the youngest of the three sisters but is Apple whatever whose son is Godfrey related to John? And who and how is Miss Clark related in this family tree?
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It's a bit like Gilbert and Sullivan's HMS Pinafore: "His sisters and his cousins who he reckons up by dozens and his aunts."
But it actually boils down to the 5 Herncastle siblings:
1. the heir to the title.
2. the wicked John, who stole the diamond
3. eldest sister, married Mr. Blake, produced Franklin Blake
4. second sister, married Mr. Ablewhite, produced Godfrey Ablewhite and other children
5. Julia, married Sir John Verinder, produced Rachel
So Franklin, Godfrey, and Rachel are all first cousins to each other.
Miss Clack, who we are about to meet, is the niece of Sir John Verinder, so she is Rachel's cousin, but not related to anyone else.
People seem to have married their first cousins a lot back then, at least in books. I think it's still legal in England, maybe here too, but it's now regarded as a bad idea.
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5 Herncastle siblings:
So, John Herncastle stole the gem. He is the family outcast. His three sisters are the Herncastle girls - the youngest is Julia, who married a Verinder, and she is Rachel's mother. Franklin and Godfrey are the sons of the other two girls. So far, so good. Who is the fifth Herncastle? Maybe Miss Clack is the daughter of the missing Herncastle?
It dawns on me that we are about to say goodbye to Mr. Betteredge. This breaks my heart. What will become of him? He's to stay back in Yorkshire while everyone, including his daughter Penelope, head to London. Tell me that somehow they will all return to Yorkshire and the rose garden! I still think there's something going on under the gravel paths...
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Ooops. That shows I shouldn't ever post before I've had my coffee. I typed Herncastle everywhere, even where I meant to type Verinder. I've now corrected it above. The fifth Herncastle is #1 in the list above, the heir to the title, who doesn't figure in any way in the story. Miss Clack is the niece of Sir John Verinder. I don't see why Collins had to make two Johns; he's just trying to confuse us.
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Oh, okay then, Miss Clack is not blood-related to Franklin and GodFrey...as she is to Rachel on the Verinder side...
That untangles that mystery. Now where is the diamond? Sergeant Cuff believes he has solved the mystery and is ready to move on to his next case. Did he accept Lady
Verinder's check? I thought not, but if not, why not? Maybe he is waiting for the missing diamond to turn up...the missing diamond that has NOT been stolen...
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Sergeant Cuff didn't accept Lady Verinder's check at first. He wanted to make his report, recommend what to do next, then see if Lady V. wanted him to continue. After Cuff had made his recommendations, Lady V. went to Frizinghall, and confronted Rachel as Cuff had suggested. After this he accepted his dismissal and the check, considering he had done what he had contracted to do.
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Thanks, PatH! I'd forgotten that he took the check. He's convinced that this was an internal family affair, that the diamond has not been stolen. I'm looking forward to running into the Sergeant again - in London - when/if the diamond really does get stolen!
Heartbroken to leave Betteredge waving goodbye in the driveway. Thought of him as a main character. Do you believe each of the narrators will play a narrow/limited role then?
"Collins himself was so caught up in what her was writing that he forgot his gout and even his dying mother."
Jonathan, I recall reading that Collins' mother passed away and his gout fairly crippled him as he was writing the coming chapters on Miss Clack, but he felt he had led his readers this far in the installments we've just finished, that he had to go on, not to let them (us) down. Really amazing that he was capable of the humorous portrayal of Miss Clack, I agree.
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I love it - His sisters and his cousins who he reckons by the dozens - fun.
This Miss Clack is a piece isn't she - found this about the religious tracks on Wikipedia
The Religious Tract Society, founded 1799, 56 Paternoster Row and 65 St. Paul's Chuchyard, was the original name of a major British publisher of Christian literature intended initially for evangelism, and including literature aimed at children, women, and the poor.
The founders were of the same type of evangelicals who founded the London Missionary Society and the British and Foreign Bible Society, for example David Bogue.
The society started by publishing tracts, but rapidly expanded their work into the production of books and periodicals. Their books were mostly small but did include larger works such as the multi-volume Devotional Commentary and the massive Analytical Concordance to the Bible of Robert Young.
Well I'll be... look here... The Brazen Serpent (1839) online http://archive.org/details/brazenserpent741reli
Cannot find The Serpent At Home but did find The Serpent and Sin http://www.godsacres.org/tract.TheSerpentOfSin.pdf
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'cousins by the dozens'...that's a good way to put it. Collins keeps reminding us that this is a family affair. Let's not forget the sixth Herncastle, the progenitor of the lot. He did get a mention, didn't he?
'Really amazing that he was capable of the humorous portrayal of Miss Clack, I agree.' That is an interesting thought, JoanP. Why did he make such a caricature out of her? The narrative is dripping with sarcasm and satire. And there is an irony in that.
Betteredge concludes his account by saying that readers are 'to be treated in all respects like a Judge on the bench.' Acting under orders, he says. All accounts, his and the others to follow, are given in the interests of truth. And who is more devoted to the Truth than Miss Clack. But she herself is portrayed in such a 'humorous' way, thanks to the authors intervention.
What a contrast. To go from Gabriel's rational, objective evidence to Drusilla's religious hysteria. We're witnesses to the agony of a saint.
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Rachel, according to Clack needs a clergyman, not a physician. 'Exercise and amusement!' 'Oh, what heathen advice!' 'In this Christian country.'
Did I understand it correctly? Is she being paid for her contribution to the truth? And her conscience stands in the way of accepting the check. Didn't Cuff have a similiar problem?
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I think Betteridge will be back. Meanwhile, enjoy Miss Clack.
I loved "The Serpant and Sin". haven't been able to find "Sin in the Sofa Cushions. Rats!
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Jonathan
Not surprisingly, Miss Clack accepted the check.
Even to put her in the same sentence with Cuff is dishonorong that fine ,intelligent man.
Barb
, I read the material on the sites you mentioned. All made up by the fire and brimstone preachers. They call dancing and card playing the fiery serpents doing. They make up things that don't exist in the text of Exodus in the Bible.
The writers along with their proseltizer, Drusilla Clack, are pitiful.
However , Miss Clack, does have one saving grace. She tells it like she sees it even if her interpretation of those events are sometimes improbable, sometimes silly and almost always unintentionally humorous.
Here are a couple of her priceless sayings:
"Let your faith be as your stockings, and your stockings as your faith. Both ever spotless, and both ready to put on at a moment's notice."
"When the Christian Hero (she means Godfrey) of a hundred charitable victories plunges into a pitfall that has been dug for him by mistake, oh, what a warning it is to the rest of us to be unceasingly on our guard! How soon may our own evil passions prove to be Oriental noblemen who pounce on us unawares."
"Dearest Rachel", he said in the same voice which had thrilled me when he spoke of our prospects and our trousers......"
"Sorrow and sympathy! Oh what pagan emotions to expect from a Christian Englishwoman anchored firmly on her faith!"
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Marking my place. I've finished thru chapter XX11, but haven't started the next 2 narratives. I hope we are not through with Betteredge. I've grown quite fond of him. I got quite impatient with Rachel....
Sally
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Sally join us with your thoughts as you can - if we have read the section you are remarking on that is fine - this story is turning into a frolic with hysteria from Rachel while Betteredge tells the tale and from Miss Clack who is the next story teller.
I think both Cuff and Clack had self-righteous problems with their checks and both soothed their conscience by completing the job as they were hired to do.
You picked out some Doozies JudeS ;) :D ::)
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Well, on to a new section today. I guess everyone's reading like mad. I'm traveling, but will have posting time too.
Miss Clack is quite a change from Betteredge, isn't he? This is the section Collins wrote while in agony from gout and woozy from opium. Do you think it shows?
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Her very name is a comment on how the author and the other characters regard this new narrator. Rachel insists on calling her "Clack" from the start. I thought it was a nickname...but soon enough Aunt Verinder addresses her as "Drusilla." Drusilla Clack. Rachel doesn't call this cousin by her first name - ever. She may as well be calling this ideosyncratic cousin, "Quack." The name Clack indicates that none of the Verinders hold her in high regard. Except Aunt V. seems to treat her kindly - at least with some forebearance. Is this character indicative of how Wilkie C and those of this period regard the women we'd refer to as "do-gooders?" We've recently seen the same attituces in DIckens Bleak House...
It will be interesting to learn what this narrator can contribute to the location of the Monnstone...
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OK, here is the most important question: in the absence of Mr. Godfrey Ablewhite, if you were a member of the Select Committee of the Mothers' Small-Clothes-Conversion-Society, what would YOU do about the surfeit of trousers? (don't tell me you're too busy reading "Satan amoung the Sofa Cushions" to answer. That's no excuse in such an emergency!
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Well, on to a new section today. I guess everyone's reading like mad. I'm traveling, but will have posting time too.
Miss Clack is quite a change from Betteredge, isn't he? This is the section Collins wrote while in agony from gout and woozy from opium. Do you think it shows?
Yea, I’m reading still, but in answer to your question – OH! She’s a HUGE change from Betteredge! *LOL* Betteredge’s a rather furtive presence as opposed to Clack’s relentless attendance, only matched by her vigorous quest to save everyone she comes into contact. Betteredge refrains from imposing upon others, whereas Clack imposes in the disguise of enlightenment, which she then brings to the point of nauseating.
While I’m reading, its not evident Collins’ endures anything that affects his work. The writing is smooth, consistent and enjoyable all the way through (at least to where I’ve stopped so far).
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[...] Is this character indicative of how Wilkie C and those of this period regard the women we'd refer to as "do-gooders?" [...]
Yes to the question, but... do-gooders today are viewed still in this light, don’t you think? I know while reading Clack's contribution to this story her relentless demeanor, thinking and beliefs were all too familiar with some people I’ve encountered throughout my adult life.
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What struck me about Miss Clack's behavior was her tenacity and the monumental amount of rationalization she used to excuse rude behavior towards her, as well has her own behavior when she deemed something unavoidable or necessary.
I continue to find Rachel a rather unlikable spoiled brat. Likewise, I continue to be suspicious of Godfrey's motives regarding his Ladies Charities and Rachel. I can't help but wonder if he has been "borrowing" money from the charity funds and hopes to marry into Verinder money.
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Ah yes Scottielovr the do-gooders - seems to me there are do-gooders and do-gooders - it is the ones who need to be important or judge who and how and why that regardless their lifetime associations are a special breed of their own. Great character description, "Clack imposes in the disguise of enlightenment" - love it.
Interesting, Lady Verinder dies - I wonder what her character prevents that it was better for Collins to eliminate her - she had some control over Rachel and so we shall see if she becomes more subdued - Rachel does make the decision her future it not with Godfry. - boy was he smooth or was he smooth tripping along the path of coercion. I wonder Frybabe if you are not on to something - he is in over his head and using monies that the ladies would be floored with the rug pulled out from under them, if they knew.
What's with all this ribbon nonsense when Clack describes Penelope - sounds like she does not like Penelope - do you think Drusilla sees herself as an equal to Penelope I wonder or why in the world would she have such an adverse reaction to a servant.
Easy enough to see the hubris of Drusilla Clack in similar light to the hubris of many Americans including the government after WWII - ah so and so it goes. Maybe that is why we can laugh because we recognize some of our-self.
Our three Indian jugglers are really branching out going FOR the juggler - I bet the bank is not sheltering the moonstone but where is it? One guess it could be on its way to Amsterdam with Franklin as he left for an unknown destination or back to my discomfort with Mr. Murthwaite, who so far in Clack's telling has not again been mentioned. [I have not yet finished this weeks read]
Well poor Drusilla did not receive her legacy and with her Christian proverbs she will probably quote ways to justify her sinking into more sacrifice to keep alive her respectable poverty.
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Don't worry, Mr. Murthwaite will show up whenever Collins wants to explain somethind about the Indians. handy, isn't he?
Well, I haven't gotten any answers to my question, and the trousers are piling up!
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Joan K
A surfeit of trousers?
What shall we do?
Give one to him, one to her
And two to you.
Still too many you say?
The answer is clear
Pantless Angels in Heaven
Will cover their rear.
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Oh my Bill Wilson was not yet born and so these angry and exasperated women felt punishment was appropriate for fathers who could not care for their families and provide their sons with decent trousers. The fathers were to suffer further humiliation by having their own trousers, hocked to pay for a night of oblivion in drink, grabbed from the pawn shop and ripped into pieces and quickly sewn into trousers for their sons - does not sound like the "good" ladies matched trousers to family but simply willy nilly obtained, ripped, cut and sewed then, put in a pile waiting for their Godfry to help with the distribution. Worse then the pouring of liquor down the sink as if that was going to stop the drunk.
Remember when drunks were regularly jailed - at least it was the local jail where as now those using drugs are sent away for months and years.
Poor Drucilla - she was as shocked as all of them and reacted with what she had - oh I did feel for her - she had no clue and was trying to help ending up making an enemy of everyone - sure she had her selfish considerations while she was being true to her values as she knew them but then they all have their selfish considerations. I no more think Bruff is as purely good hearted as he sounds having Rachel stay with him and his family.
And what ever is at the bottom of all this - Rachel is playing a fine game whatever is going on. She is a master so far of both sections - as much as she is distraught with the death of her mother I do think she is over dramatizing for affect her tears and reactions.
Whew Collins sure used words painting a compelling picture of the volatile scene with Applewhite confronting Rachel - would he have dared if Lady Verinder were in the room - but then if she were still alive they would not be in Brighton. One thing you can say for Rachel she is standing up well to the power and authority of men - she removed herself from her promise to marry and she put detectives in their place - and now alone, more easily picked off, Applewhite tries to control her but she stays firm. No wonder Drusilla wanted to control and tamper her spirit - Rachel is what Drusilla would like to be but does not know how to pull it off so she hides her aggressive nature behind propagandizing for her evangelical views.
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Barb, you brought up two interesting thoughts.
Miss Clack vs. Penelope. Odd that Miss Clack did not give Penelope the same consideration as the others for her perceived rudeness. I don't recall her excusing/rationalizing Penelope's behavior at all. More insulting to Penelope behind her back, Miss Clack refers to her by the ribbons on her maid's cap.
I felt at one point that Mr. Bruff looked on Rachel in something of a lascivious manner even though he is married. Well, overly solicitous at least. Perhaps he felt it was part of his duty as lawyer to protect Rachel. Is he the executor of Rachel's mother's will? I can see him using her presence in his household as an excuse to extract more fees from the estate. By the way, does she actually inherit her mother's estate or does it go to the nearest male relative. Rachel is still under 20, right?
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JudeS, I forgot to say that I like your little poem.
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Rachel has a life interest in the money and property. This means that she can live on the interest, but not touch the principal or sell the property. This was a necessary protection for a woman before the passage of the Married Woman's Property Act, as otherwise, when she married, everything she had belonged to her husband, and he could just spend it all.
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Jude, you made my morning with your poem :).
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Ah, thanks Pat.
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JUDE :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Every time I think I have stopped laughing, I start again. "Pantless Angels in Heaven Will cover their rear". Oh my.
BARB: "Rachel is what Drusilla would like to be but does not know how to pull it off so she hides her aggressive nature behind propagandizing for her evangelical views. "
How perceptive of you. I never thought of that, but you're right of course.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrativeo
April 21-25: Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD
April 26-May 1: SECOND PERIOD: first two narratives:Miss Clack and Mr. Bruff
May 2-6: the first part of Franklin Blake's narrative, through Chapter VII, ending with "I saw her, and heard her, no more".
Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg) |
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For Your Consideration
May 2-6: the first part of Franklin Blake's narrative,
through Chapter VII, ending with "I saw her, and heard her, no more".
1. This section clears up some mysteries, but introduces others. Does Collins do a good job of managing mystery and suspense?
2. Franklin Blake is now speaking for himself. Does his narrative change your opinion of his character?
3. How are Franklin's and Godfrey's attitudes toward money alike? Why do we tolerate one and not the other?
4. Rosanna Spearman’s letter is the second narrative told by a servant. This was unusual at the time. What is Collins’ purpose in doing this?
5. Rosanna describes her emotions on being a reformed thief. Is this realistic?
6. Why does Rosanna tell Franklin Blake that her father was a gentleman?
7. What do Rosanna and Rachel's stories tell us about Collins' views of women? Do you think the relationships between women and men that he portrays are typical of his times?
8. How will Collins solve the conundrum he has posed? (If you've read ahead, don't answer! Let us guess.)
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Happy to have made you laugh-JoanK and anyone else who thought the limerick was funny.
JoanK- It was your question that elicited my reply and lit my imagination.
I am still worried about Satan among the sofa cushions and the sins committed there.
What color are the cushions and from what material are they wrought?
Who committed the sins and why? with whom? or perchance alone?
I dare one and all to make a stab at answering these questions which so worry our Miss Clack.
Then poof, she is gone from the story, so perhaps these cushions and sins are not all that important.
I found this section so amusing that the Moonstone itself was not uppermost in my mind.
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Clearly, Miss Clack's focus was on sinners not an object sure to tempt said sinners.Do we have a clue who, from her characterizations and discoveries, would succumb to the temptation of the diamond? I didn't see it. The best I can say is that Godfrey and the lawyer Bruff are fawning over Rachel, perhaps with a view to control her inheritance to their advantage. I am not sure that has anything to do with the diamond, considering it is supposed to be stolen and perhaps unrecoverable.
Today, I think I will start on Bruff's narrative.
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"The best I can say is that Godfrey and the lawyer Bruff are fawning over Rachel, perhaps with a view to control her inheritance to their advantage."
Fry...I see that you have yet to read Mr. Bruff's narrative. After reading that, I have come to see Bruff in a different light - with Rachel's interests at heart. Not so sure about Godfrey's feelings for Rachel though...
WilkieC has presented a rivetting plot, but there is other commentary just below the surface. So similar to what Dickens was wrting . They must be reflecting the attitudes of their readers at the time. The religious do-gooders come under fire here. BUT, while we laugh at the extremes Miss Clack goes to in "spreading the word," - hiding those tracts all through her aunt's home...do you really doubt her committment to "spreading the word" and "converting" her cousin? I can understand the family losing patience with her zealous attempts, of course. But this is her whole life. These are the causes she lives for... She is clearly smitten with Godfey, who only has eyes for Rachel. She wants her aunt to leave her a little something, but wouldn't she find a good cause for it? In all, I'm nto seeing Clack as a hypocite. I wonder what you think of her.
Godfey is another story. He professes to be so in love with Rachel...talks her into accepting his proposal, knowing that she does not love him. But why? Didn't he recover quickly when Rachel tells him the engagement is off? Not the behavior of a young man whose heart is broken. Does Wilkie intend for us to accept this state of affairs - Or did I miss the explanation? Does Godfrey really and truly enjoy his charitable works with Miss Clack and her ladies?
If I had go guess, I'd say that he was forced into the engagement by someone, or by circumstance -- and when Rachel releases him, he feels nothing but relief...happy to return to his former position, adored by ladies everywhere...
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You can find the explanation for Godfrey's behavior in Mr. Bruff's narrative, but I'll wait a bit so Frybabe can read it.
Does Godfrey really enjoy his charitable work with the ladies? I find it hard to believe anyone could stomach that sort of thing, but Godfrey must enjoy it or he wouldn't be so good at it. He has a very sure touch with the ladies.
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I can think of two reasons why Godfrey enjoys his work with the ladies, Pat. He basks in the adulation and admiration he gets from them. And, many of these ladies who get involved in these charitable projects have $$$ ... How badly does Godfrey need money. I'll go back and reread Bruff's narrative to learn why he proposed to Rachel - and why he was so relieved when she had second thoughts.
Do you think Rachel was trying to forget Franklin when she accepted Godfrey's proposal?
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When I think of Godfrey my Mother's words come to me:
"He's a rotter".
In other words-up to no good.
He is the prototype of the "do-gooder" out to do good for imself while covering himself in a patina of holiness.
We have many examples in our own time of this type of person: handsome, charming, silver tongued and self serving.
It seems that there are no truer words than "There's a new sucker born every minute".
I think it is brilliant of Collins to so clearly paint this type of person.
It is almost an object lesson for those wealthy women who were likely to be wooed by such as Godfrey.
I wonder how many of them, reading this story, were kicking themselves and thinking:"How could I have been so stupid as to not see through him."
Bruff's narrative brings the story clearly and solidly back to the moonstone. The writing in his chapters is clear, crisp and interesting. Very modern in style.
I think Collins had messages he wanted to send to the public as well as spinning a great yarn and making a living.
In his other well known work "The Woman in White", he had much to say about two subjects: Marriage firstly and Mental Health secondly. By the time we finish the current novel His messages will be clearly laid out.
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JoanP: " In all, I'm nto seeing Clack as a hypocite. I wonder what you think of her."
Of course, she's very funny. Not a hypocrite: she believes the self-serving explanations she gives herself for doing exactly what she wants, unlike Godfrey. And so selfish, she can't really feel for Julia's death.
But in spite of all that, she's a pitiful figure: alone, poor, unloved, finding silly occupations to give herself a sense of worth. I thought at first that Collins' sense of sympathy had failed with her, but on second reading I see glimpses of it (as when she points out that five pounds left to her would have meant so much).
What do you all think?
And JUDE, what do you think his message will be?
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JoanK, I 'm waiting for Collins to display his sympathy for Miss Clack by granting he her heart's desire. Or would marriage to Godfrey be to cruel?
So we are to believe Cousin Godfrey is a "rotter " Jude! That is pretty low! He's willing to marry the cousin in order to get his hands on her fortune! Was this also the reason he had proposed to her on her birthday?
Is he interested in the Moonstone, or is that forgotten? Bruff learns that G. has paid the shilling to view His aunt's will. (The cost has gone up today)
The fee is £6 for a copy of a grant and/or will for each deceased person. This includes a search of four years after the date of death if you are not sure when the grant was issued. If you want more than one copy of a particular grant and/or will you will need to pay an additional £1 for each copy.
Can you do that in the US? View anyone's will for a small fee?
Bruff learns that it was Godfrey who hurried in to read the will...and then was immediately relieved to get out of the engagement. What did he learn about the provisions of the will? He would have been set for life married to this very wealthy young lady!
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Yes, but he only got her income and couldn't touch the capital. As Bruff explains, if he only wanted to live well, her income would be enough. But if he needed a large sum of money in a hurry, the income wouldn't help him. What has our Godfrey been up to? gambling? Opium? Embezzlement? Or did he want to grab her money and go off to greener pastures?
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Can you do that in the US? View anyone's will for a small fee?
Its a public record, so yes, anyone can view a will in the US. Of course of fee is charged for this servce. ;)
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8) I referred to Godfey Ablewhite as a "pretty boy" before and I stand by it; he's a rakeshell, through and through. ;D In my humble opinion, he's needing money because of lifestyle, gambling, loose women or all three.
OR
He may have embezzled funds from the charities he attends, so needs to repay the monies before being discovered. Daddy Ablewhite always strived for "greener" pastures but never fully integrated into the "well-off" community as he had hoped. This life-long pursuit may have influenced Godfrey; and as someone else mentioned, why Godfrey entertains mostly women and their charitable causes - they have money. And Godfrey, in his mind, is a worthy charitable cause. ;D
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"And Godfrey, in his mind, is a worthy charitable cause."
Got that right!
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'But in spite of all that, she's a pitiful figure: alone, poor, unloved, finding silly occupations to give herself a sense of worth.' Thanks, JoanK. I was hoping someone would see her that way She works so hard at doing good and being good. And being a good Christian in seeking martyrdom. And finding it. Sure she sees the wicked ways of those around her, tries so hard to reform them, while constantly examining and reexamining her own life. Collins gets a devilish delight in making all her Chritian endeavors look silly. Most of Clacks account is entertaing, to the point where, as Jude points out, we lose sight of the Moonstone.
Clack sees the brazen serpent in Bruff!!! And can't see the villain in Godfrey!!! Bruff is such a professional. Like Tulkinghorn. Well, almost. Tulkinghorn was more secretive. I was amused by Frybabes comment about Bruff appearing lascivious and solicitous with regard to Rachel. Of course. He is a solicitor.
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JoanK
You ask what I think Collins mesage or messages will be by the end of the book.
It would be presumptious of me to dare to presume at this point.
Good writers, like Collins, who want to send a social message can't be too blunt in their presentation.
And like a good wine it is in the aftertaste that the true worth becomes obvious.
So we will continue sipping the fine brew till the end of the meal and see what remains on our palate.
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Ah, Mr. Murthwaite shows up again. I was a little suspicious of him at the beginning. I thought, how convenient of him to be in the neighborhood when the diamond was brought down from London. And here he is again, looking for funding for his next expedition. (I got the impression that the ladies were the ones presenting him with checks.)
Compared to the other writers, Mr. Bruff doesn't seem to have much to say. Perhaps that is because he doesn't fly off onto side issues like the others did.
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'What do you think his message will be?'
That's a great question, suggesting something just as important as solving the mystery of the missing Moonstone. The more one thinks about it, the more it seems that Collins does have some moral objective in mind about his times and its mores. Why not see it parodied in Miss Clack's story?
The Moonstone is a great mystery. Very entertaining. But perhaps it could also be seen as a tract. Especially a feminist tract. The plight of women is told so movingly. And questionably. Ambivanently. One thing Rachel and Miss Clack share so movingly is being let down by their men. The trust, the love, everything ends in disilluionment. Remember Rosanna and Limping Lucy, handicapped by class and social restraints.
Gender inequalities were becoming obvious. Women were awakening to their plight. Novelists were cashing in.
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I see some structure here using Clack as a figure of humor - I can hear it now even when I was young and she would be a laugh as the comments were still about women drivers as if they had wool in their heads and crazy quilts for eyes.
However, thinking how many plays have a small sorta associated humorous bit. As dark and dramatic Les Mis and yet the Inn keeper and his wife on stage or a hoot - not so much in the movie where I do not see that devise used - even Shakespeare would have a play within a play or a jester or something to break the tension in the story. Sorta slow it down so that we become patient again to take up the trail towards the end rather than feel annoyed because the solution is not immediate.
Bruff's brief was brusque and becoming to a barrister.
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Compared to the other writers, Mr. Bruff doesn't seem to have much to say. Perhaps that is because he doesn't fly off onto side issues like the others did.
Mr. Bruff writes like a lawyer preparing a brief--succinct and keeping to the point.
I think it’s an interesting contrast, Tulkinghorn vs Bruff, Dickens’ view of lawyers vs Collins’.
Tulkinghorn seems to have no need for human relationships. He lives alone, satisfied with his good dinners and his port. He is super-vigilant in looking after the interests of his client, Sir Leicester Dedlock, but regards emotions, including Sir Leicester’s love for his wife, as interferences.
Bruff has a family life, with wife and daughters. He also has friendly feelings for his clients. He and Rachel’s father were friends, and he was invited to Rachel’s birthday dinner, but couldn’t come. He has admiration and respect for both Rachel and her mother.
Dickens thinks lawyers are evil. I don't know what Collins thinks overall, but he sees that some lawyers can be good people.
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Jonathan, those are good ideas of possible messages in the book.
Barb, that's a good point, Miss Clack as an interval of comic relief.
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To think that Wilkie was able to give us Miss Clack... and comic relief, while he was in such pain - and his mother was dying!
While considering the messages he may have been sending to his readers in this "tract", I am remembering how much these female characters were willing to sacrifice for the men they love. Do Collins' men deserve them? I think not! Wonder what his readers thought at the time...
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A look ahead: we have two more days on this Section. On Thursday May 2nd we'll move on. The next Section will be Franklin Blake's narrative THROUGH CHAPTER VII (7) ONLY.
Warning: it stops at a suspenseful place. We thought we could stop there briefly and speculate how Collins is going to get his characters out of the mess he puts them in. And experience a little of what his readers felt, waiting for the next installment of the serial.
Reading ahead a little won't help. Collins takes his time resolving the situation. If you do read ahead, don't post any spoilers, please.
Questions will be posted by Thursday.
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I don't find Miss Clack humorous. Maybe because I have known people like that. They don't really care about people. They only care about spreading "The Word" as they see it. I am running a little behind...on Bruff''s narrative now.
Sally
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Good. You're still with us, Sally. Mr. Bruff will be refreshingly straightforward, and we still have some time on this section.
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Sally, I feel sorry for Clack, just as I felt for Rosanna Spearman - two lonely women, hopelessly in love with two men who will never return their affection.
I'm looking forward to hear what you learn from Mr. Bruff's narrative... (Bruff - gruff, brief ...
Was it unusual for Mr. Bruff to initiate the conversation with Mr. Murthwaite at the dinner party? Doesn't Mr. Murthw make an appearance at moments significant to the plot? I can't decide whether to suspect he has a hand in the Indians' plot to steal the diamond - or if he is a means Collins is using to advance the plot.
Clearly Bruff is puzzled at the question posed to him by the Indian visitors...even more puzzled to learn that they also visited Mr. Lukor and asked him the same question. It took Murthwaite to coach Bruff into seeing the meaning of the question - and to alert him - and the reader - to the fact that the next attempt will be the following June, a year or so from Rachel's birthday, a year from the time the diamond was deposited in Luker's account. I hardly think Murthwaite would have helped Bruff to understand this if he were in on the plot. I'm not sure what is meant by the clairvoyance of the Indians...still not clear what part this boy is playing in their scheming. Maybe those of you who are reading Bruff's account now can explain it. The only thing that I can see - neither Bruff nor Murthwaite believe clairvoyance will solve the mystery of the missing diamond...and so I assume that Collins himself does not consider clairvoyance with any credibility.
One other thing from Murthwaites' explanation - these three Indians are of another generation committed to retrieving the diamond ...and so they must be instructed or guided by others, elders. When you think about it - their people are the rightful owners of the diamond, don't you think? Not Herncastle's heir. Will it be returned to India when all is said and done?
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What I found fascinating is that each as they tell the story as they witness it give a character witness of Rachel. And even more fascinating to me is their description of Rachel is describing their own emotional reaction to Rachel and to how they see life in general.
I remember looking up the name Murthwaite and found it to be of Scandinavian origin and its meaning was an open field in the forest - it appears now that is what he supplies to the telling of the story - when folks need clarity on the Indians who are more directly tied to the mystery of the diamond than the others, Murthwaite is the link between east and west and explaining and clarifying the story for the reader as well as for the character in the story. He still makes me uncomfortable he knows too much about the Diamond and how banks and Rachel's household estate functions. I do not remember if he knew John Herncastle however the night of the party he was included as a family friend.
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What I found fascinating is that each as they tell the story as they witness it give a character witness of Rachel. And even more fascinating to me is their description of Rachel is describing their own emotional reaction to Rachel and to how they see life in general.
That's an excellent point, Barb. They are telling as much about themselves as about Rachel.
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'I am marrying in despair, Mr Bruff.'
'You have forgotten the Moonstone, Mr Bruff. Have I not braved public opinion, there, (fleeing the scene of the crime?) with my own private reasons for it?'
Why does Mr Bruff then tell the reader that he has trouble explaining Rachel's conduct after the diamond went missing? 'I might perhaps have done it, when I was younger. I certainly couldn't do it now.' In any case he helps Rachel out of her marriage problem by revealing Godfrey's interest in the will.
Isn't it curious that everyone in the novel is as mystified as we readers. Wondering what it is all about. What's the message? That some people see marriage as a refuuge?
Nobody should feel sorry for Miss Clack. She reveals so much character in her account of her role in what she describes as 'the deplorable scandal of the moonstone.' And in another place the shocking story of the Moonstone'.
Mr Bruff, on the other hand talks simply of 'the mystery of the Indian Diamond.'
It's hard to beat the dialogue between Mr Bruff and Miss Clack, as they debate the suspicions surrounding certain people. Saint and worldling have it out, and the saint comes out the winner. And she even overlooks her pride when she hears Mr Bruff admit:
'Allow me to congratulate you on the masterly manner in which you have opened the full fire of your batteries on me at the moment when I least expected it. You would have done great things in my profession, ma'am, if you had happened to be a man.'
And it's happening. More women than men now graduate from law school. Miss Clack was leading the way.
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Great point! I can see her as a lawyer now; preferably a prosecutor, never letting her victims escape!
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"...if you had happened to be a man.' I am feeling drenched in this iron cage of story after story reminding of the few options and personalities we adapted because of limitations - even the wonderful Oscar Hammerstein and I remember every word there was no talking to the dead Billy saying it was not OK - have not watched the 50s show but assume ti is more of the same - you could either be a Rachel or a Drusilla or one of the mature women or a Roseanna or a Penelope or la Teacher or later a Nurse a Secretary or finally an Airline Hostess - all stereotypical of women with no power except to say yes or no to a marriage and the rest they needed to persuade a guy to get it done. grrrr - I wonder why he spelled Hindu as he does - if it is colloquial there is no other place I can find where he imitates the local dialect.
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Miss Clack today would be a Preacher hailing fire and brimstone on her congregants.
Yes, she knows how to argue. Yes, she provides comical releif for the story but she also is a frustrated spinster supposedly full of good will to all .
I would not want to be a recipient of her good will. She basically wants to point out everyone elses" sins" in order to make herself feel better than they.
Collins does a masterful job in his portrait of the woman who uses God and religion as a cudgel.
In contrast he uses Rosanna who is supposedly a "bad" woman and portrays her as a sensitive, intelligent and decent human being, not afraid of her feelings and willing to die for them.( Though that is really going a bit overboard.)
In these two woman we see prototypes of many hopeless heroines and many sad and lonely womrn who are without love and affection and consequently their lives turn to dust.
Although they can love (or perhaps, need, is the better word)another they themselves are not lovable and therein lies their tragedy.
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Spot on, Judy.
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Barbara...The only thing I can find on the spelling Collins uses - "Hindoo is an archaic spelling of Hindu, and one whose use today may be considered derogatory"... Is it possible that Collins is using the spelling in this way? I'm going to try to note the characters who refer to the "Hindoo mythology."
I see Murthwaite referring to "Hindoo mythology" when describing four-armed deity to Bruff. Is he scoffing at the idea that the Indians are behind the theft? Does he pronounce Hindooo as we see it spelled?
Murthwaite makes me uncomfortable too...Both times we meet him, he shows no interest in any of the dinner party conversations, except when the subject of the Moonstone is raised. Remember Rachel's birthday dinner? He advised her to have the diamond sent to Amsterdam and cut to many pieces. And then when attending a dinner where Bruff was present, it was only Bruff's mention of the Moonstone that caught his attention. I don't understand why he's invited anywhere - if he isn't interested in anything but this one subject.
One last thought before moving on to Blake's narrative...in response to this question:
7. Did this section change your mind about the solution to the mystery?
Though I was shocked and saddened to read of Lady Verinder's death - I wonder if any of you considered her involvement in the "removal" of the diamond? Obviously she is worried about Rachel's safety. She'd have a motive to keep her from flaunting it as she had on her birthday.
1. Does Collins do a good job of managing mystery and suspense?
Oh yes he does! Have we eliminated anyone who attended that birthday party? Including Rachel herself? Here we are now, a year later - and still no clear suspect... Franklin Blake's narrative should be revealing!
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I have not been here because I'm afraid I went way ahead and don't want to spoil things. But I felt the whole Clack episode was just a distraction, comic relief I might have called it except for Mrs. Devinder's death which was so unexpected. Yet there must have been a reason for Collins doing away with her as a character. Perhaps to bring to the fore the whole of Godfrey's family (and I don't like any of them, particularly Godfrey and his father). I don't think the spelling of Hindoo shows prejudice either way beyond the basic prejudice always there. Over the years so many nationalities' spellings and pronunciations have undergone changes.
My comments don't address the mystery one bit, which is probably good. I see Murthwaite as a bridge of sorts between the East and the West. He has an understanding of both, and I find him to be an observer and facilitator rather than having any involvement, criminal or otherwise.
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Zulema, you say you went "way ahead" and you are in effect, telling us to take Murthwaite off the list of suspects... I guess the question is, how far ahead have you read?
So Franklin has returned to London - has received word that his father has died. He has a great deal of money, now - to pay outstanding debts. I was pleased to read of his return to Yorkshire...and to find Betteredge living there - comfortably. Together they will solve the mystery. Wait, they need the detective - Cuff, who is now retired - tending to his roses!
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HI, ZULEMA. So glad you came in! Yes, what did you think of that scene when Collins was mingling the tragic and comic in Lady Verinders death? I thought it was masterful.
Hmmmm, JoanP. Lady verinder involved in removing the moonstone? I didn't think of that! I thought she was afraid Rachel did it, and didn't want to face it. What did you think?
But the new section starting today changes all our ideas about the mystery. Here is where PatH and I stopped the reading like the old Saturday serial movies that end with the hero tied up in the burning building and you have to wait til next week to see how he gets out. Don't cheat and read ahead before you have a chance to come in and guess how Coillins will resolve this.
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No, No, No!! I didn't take Murthwaite off the suspects' list. I just never saw him as one, not even a red herring, I'm just telling how I see him. Everything I said is my view of these people, or rather my view of what Collins is doing as a writer. Murthwaite to me is an outlier who observes and listens because he speaks everyone's language.
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I must say Mr. Bruff surprised me when in Chapter VI of Blake's narrative, he said, "Cool". I always thought that a modern expression.
A few paragraphs later he says, "...But women, as you may have observed, have no principles. My family don't feel my pangs of conscience. The end being to bring you and Rachel together again, my wife and daughters pass over the means employed to gain it, as composedly as if they were Jesuits." Mr. Bruff is showing his prejudices' here, both to women and to Jesuits (or more likely Catholics in general).
I thought Roseanna Spearman's suicide epistle way to lengthy. I admit to skimming over most of it. Pity, I had entertained the thought that her disappearance was meant to let people assume she committed suicide and that she was actually lurking backstage somewhere waiting to pop in again in the future.
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Hahaha, that's the difference between us, Zulema. I haven't taken anyone off the list...except the real obvious ones - like Franklin and Rachel...
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haha even Catholics have a thing about Jesuits - Not sure I can figure out how far we should go - I am assuming we include the entire letter to Franklin but not sure after that how far we go. I hate this kindle in that it does not show page numbers.
I've read till he meets Dr. Candy's assistant and still the mystery continues is spades - I see glimmers here and there of the reason for some behavior but by an large the whole thing is a conundrum
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Barb, we go through Rosanna's letter, and on through Franklin Blake's interview with Rachel, and stop after he rushes out, overcome with emotion.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrativeo
April 21-25: Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD
April 26-May 1: SECOND PERIOD: first two narratives:Miss Clack and Mr. Bruff
May 2-6: the first part of Franklin Blake's narrative, through Chapter VII, ending with "I saw her, and heard her, no more".
May 7-11: Franklin Blake's narrative, Chapter VIII to end, all of Ezra Jennings' Narrative.
Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg) |
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For Your Consideration
May 7-11: The rest of Franklin Blake's narrative, and all of Ezra Jennings' narrative.
1. Events in this section involve several points of medical science, all accepted as true in Collins’ time. Which ones are still accepted today? Does this matter for our enjoyment of the story?
2. Even in their first, casual encounters, Ezra Jennings and Franklin Blake each find the other interesting, hard to forget. Why would there be such an attraction?
3. Jennings is the latest in a series of characters who are wholly or partly not English in their origin or thoughts. How does Collins use these traits?
4. Has Collins effectively blended suspense, pathos, and humor in this section?
5. Inspector Cuff has been proven wrong. What is Collins' view of the detective? What is yours?
6. We now know who took the moonstone, but the mystery is not solved. Where do you think the moonstone is and how did it get there?
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
aha - thanks Pat - got it...!
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Bruff is showing his prejudices' here, both to women and to Jesuits (or more likely Catholics in general).
Fry, this is one more instance of Collins anti-catholic feelings. Of course we all smiled at the zealous Miss Clack, but even she held the "Popery" in a negative light. I found some information that might explain what was in Wilkie's mind as he wrote...
William Collins, Wilkie's father had hoped Wilkie would attend Oxford and enter the Church. This did not sit well with Wilkie and the two never came to terms about this. Also, the elder Collins was "a Tractarian (?), who despised the Italian Catholicism that he encountered owes in Rome. He had hoped that Wilkie would attend Oxford and enter the Church."
Wilkie was not alone with these views - "Wilkie Collins, that most secular and sensational of nineteenth-century writers, is rarely thought of as a novelist of religious polemic. Yet in 1855 and again in 1881, Collins published two fictions that conform closely to the patterns of anti-Catholic narrative."
I'll go find the article in case you are interested in this aspect of the story...
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"Individual Victorian reading experiences were, of course, diverse, but the majority of those readers who consumed Collins's narratives would have shared a history of experience with anti-Catholic discourse. Reinforcing a set of polemical Protestant prejudices in their audience and presenting the Papacy as a cultural, political, and economic force in nineteenth-century Britain, fictions that borrow from anti-Catholic discourse play on readers' fears, arousing their suspense and subsequent speculation. My argument, then, is not simply that the motifs of no-Popery found their way into sensation fiction (although they did), but that sensationalism's narrative structures, forming and formed by the learned associations of its audience, are borrowed in part from anti-Catholicism."
Wilkie Collins anti-catholic Discourse (http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/narrative/v012/12.1griffin.html)
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As I remember reading earlier about what was going on in history in Europe at the time there was the unification of Italy that meant a reduction in the Vatican State which at that time was a land area of about a third of what is Italy now - both France and Austria were in on the fight and where neither were besom buddies with Britain the heads of these nations were all related one way or another to Queen Victoria. And the Catholics were back in the news - and Britain had not handled well the Potato famine in Ireland which was still fresh in the minds of those who believed the Irish Catholic belonged beyond the Irish Pale. When you read Thackeray at least I was taken back to hear the Irish characters being put down reminiscent of Blacks pre-Civil Rights in this country.
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Frybabe
You stole my post!
How wonderful---Great minds must think alike, right?
It was a bizarre feeling to read your post since I had written one very much like it and then scrapped it since it was late at night and I wasn't sure it made sense. When reading the posts this morning my brain said,"Did I send it after all?' But no,
it wasn't my post.It was yours!
The use of the word "Cool" at that period of time really caught my attention.
As to Rosanna's letter, I think Collins was trying to show how intelligent, sensitive and disturbed she was. Perhaps he was gilding the lilly.
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I don't think "cool" is used in the slang sense now common. One of my dictionary definitions is "calmly audacious", which fits its use here.
Rosanna's letter--she had shut herself away in Limping Lucy's room for an hour or so to write it, and in my book it's 13 pages of fine print. I wonder how long it would really take to write?
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From the way it rambles repeating some things I think she wrote in a frenzy not thinking but simply dumping her feelings - talk about looking through a glass darkly Franklin must feel that bewildered.
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Remwmber. Betteridge didn't let him read the whole thing at the time (he probably couldn't have stood it), although he had read it by the time he wrote his narrative.
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A lot of prejudices show up in this book. Although Collins was ahead of his time in some ways, he was very much of his time in others. Isn't it interesting how easily I can see prejudices from another time, and how blind I am to my own. I can see my grandchildren years hence saying "She believed THAT!".
I wonder what THAT will be.
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The notes in my Penguin Classics edition has 'cool' meaning 'impudent' or 'presumptuous' for the 19c reader.
Collins' views of women. Very sympathetic I believe. Very understanding and curious. Flattering. Amused. I think he's quite perceptive in searching the female heart and mind. Of course he finds humor in what they say and do, but the truth is much different and grander. Hidden behind the pieties, Miss Clack reveals a very complicated character. She's very foxy. Would no doubt, have loved to be a lawyer...or a preacher! But she could at least be a Tractarian!!
Collins really pays women a great compliment when he has women pursuing their purpses 'as composedly as if they were Jesuits.' I can't see any anti-catholicism in suggesting women are as clever as the Jesuits in their assurance of the rightness of their thoughts and actions.
Some suicide note. In the form of a love letter. Brilliant insight into the mind and heart of a woman. So very jesuitical? No! Straight from the heart.
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Don't you agree? Rosanna was very composed writing that long note.
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Jonathan
You brought a thought to mind.
Could Collins have been using Rosanna's letter as an example of what falling in love at first sight feels like?
He obviously had that experience at some point in his life.
He respects the fact that falling in love like that can happen to both women and men. Equal passion.
He appeals to the romantic in all of us in that letter.
Yet , writing it in one hour-? The poor woman missed her calling as a writer of romance novels.
I wonder what happened between Dickens and Collins?
If I can find one fault with Collins , it is his over identification with EACH of his characters. Whereas Dickens, I've always felt , was able to empathise with a character yet keep at least a modicum of distance betweeen himself and the happenings on the page.
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I am starting VII. I am finding portions of this section a little tedious and I find myself getting impatient to get on with the story. I thought Rosanna's letter showed a little "madness" on her part.
Sally
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Does anyone know who fathered Miss Clack? We're told she had a happy childhood, until her father was ruined, leaving her to make her way in little town of Brittany...possessed onf the advantage of a Protestant clergyman, "a Patmos amid the howling ocean of Popery"
Jonathan - "foxy" well describes Miss Clack! - She finds everyone around her "spiritually weak" - Rachel, Franklin, Lady Verinder, Penelope, Mr. Betteredge...everyone but Geofrey Ablewhite...Love is blind isn't it? Godfrey "does everything right. This dear man, very complete..."
Unlike Rosanna, I believe Miss Clack will remain blind to Geofrey's faults and keep him in her sights until she wins him. Can't wait to see what Wilkie does with this...
I thought Rosanna's letter showed a little "madness" on her part. Sally
More than a little, I agree with you, Sally! Imagine reading a letter like this - a year after the young lady has sacrificed her own life for you!
The whole idea of falling in love at first sight interests me. It's something that you can't understand unless you've been through it...
Collins writes "You have heard of beautiful young ladies falling in love at first sight, and have thought it natural enough." The book he was working on when he died was "Blind Love" (http://www.wilkie-collins.info/books_blind_love.htm) - "The virtuous Iris is blinded to his faults and insidiously corrupted by her love for him until she discovers the true enormity of his crime." (He was a murderer, not a diamond thief.)
I have forgotten - were we told when Rosanna first laid eyes on Franklin? I remember her mother was "on the streets" - but surely that wasn't where Franklin would have met her. Wasn't there something said about her mother being abandonned by a wealthy man. I'm wondering if we will learn who that was. (My very active imagination has it to be someone in the cast...Franklin's father, which would then make Rosanna Franklin's half-sister. How about that for a plot? Or Mr. Ablewhite or...)
Rosanna sees Franklin "like a prince in a fairy story, like a lover in a dream." Poor Franklin, he can't even finish her love letter - hands it to Betteredge and tells him to let him know if there is anything of importance at the end of it. Yes, it's a long letter - too long, but Wilkie needed it to explain her feelings and to move his plot along. This is Franklin's nightgown with the paint stain on it!!!
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JoanP, I think that Roseanna indicated that she first say FB at the Virender house. It is not exactly as I expected because from the way she reacted to FB when she met him, I got the distinct impression that she had met him before. I kept waiting to see when she would reveal when they had originally met, or when he would remember/acknowledge her.
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We do see Rosanna seeing Franklin for the first time. It's Franklin's first appearance in the book. Rosanna and Betteredge are sitting and talking at the Shivering Sands when a voice cries out
" 'Betteredge...where are you?' 'Here' I shouted out in return....Rosanna started to her feet and stood looking towards the voice. I was just thinking of getting on my own legs next, when I was staggered by a sudden change in the girls face.
Her complexion turned a beautiful red, which I had never seen in it before; she brightened all over with a kind of speechless and breathless surprise. 'Who is it?' I asked. Rosanna gave me back my own question.'Oh! who is it?' she said softly, more to herself than to me."
It's Franklin Blake, and as he starts to talk,
"Before I could say a word, I saw Mr. Franklin, a little surprised to all appearance, look up from me to Rosanna. ...I looked at the girl too. She was blushing a deeper red than ever, seemingly at having caught Mr. Franklin's eye, and she turned and left us suddenly, in a confusion quite unaccountable to my mind, without either making her curtsey to the gentleman or saying a word to me.
'That's an odd girl,' says Mr. Franklin. 'I wonder what she sees in me to surprise her?' "
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I wonder if we do learn more about Roseanna - seems odd to me that she even contemplated suicide and in the shivering sands at that - I guess I cannot get to that place where death would be preferable - have a sister who tried to kill herself with a knife when she was a little kid and I never could understand - of course I had no idea how to stop her and of course as the oldest one I was blamed but neither here nor there it was so beyond my ability to take it in I lost all respect for this sister and where I continued to care for her I could no longer care how she thought or what she did. I had an uncle who hung himself and to this day I am still at a loss at how you can make this choice.
I guess I am sharing how to this day this behavior bewilders me while revolting me - I cannot see, no matter how bad your life experience, making this choice - takes the concept of and smashes to oblivion, hope and so I do not understand Roseanna and I could care less who or how she may be related to or know Franklin -
I see her letter as another diversion to slow down the story while giving a bit of astonishing information about the paint stained nightshirt belonging to Franklin - I think I am like Franklin and would give the letter to someone else to read with the same instruction to only let me know if there is something that I need to do or should know. Bah Humbug -
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JUDE: "If I can find one fault with Collins , it is his over identification with EACH of his characters."
That's a fascinating point. Why do you feel he is too close? Do you think he did this on purpose, or was unaware of it?
What do you all think?
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I'll have to think about that, JoanK. Because he's chosen to tell the story through the different narrators, they are first-person reports. He's got to get inside their heads, to get close to them to make them believable to the reader. Because of her letter, her long letter, Rosanna can also be considered a narrator, as she moved the story along. Would Wilkie have profited from a good editor? I'm smiling as I remember that his editor was none other than Charles Dickens - who has already mentioned elsewhere that he found Collins' writing "tiresome." Makes you wonder why he didn't edit the submitted text. Maybe he found it all essential to the plot...
Barbara...suicide seems to have beem common in the 19th century - or at least in the sensational 19th century literature...
"For the most part, Victorians feared suicide far more than they did murder. Certainly both acts were subversive, contrary to the Ten Commandments and to Victorian secular notions of self-help and the judicious exercise of willpower, but suicide was more easily internalized than murder. A writer for Temple Bar observed of murder and murderers that "there is always something agreeable to us in the misfortunes of our neighbours, It would certainly seem as though a record of their vices is eminently pleasing." (TB 29) Self-murder, on the other hand, could lead survivors toward a painful self examination in the search for motives. Murder might satisfy the Victorian sense of justice, since murderers could be caught and imprisoned or in turn be killed for their crimes — an eye for an eye — but self-murder, was a personal challenge to the will of God in which human justice could never really intervene. Thus if murder caused sensation among the Victorians, suicide was more often a source of anxiety and disgrace.
Middle-class families took pains to conceal self-destruction, not only because suicide was illegal and considered immoral but also because the insanity plea was the only way of preventing the property of a proven suicide from reverting to the Crown. They faced the awful dilemma of choosing the lesser of two evils: hereditary insanity as a future stigma, or poverty as an immediate prospect, that is, if the suicide were a breadwinner. These alternatives — little better than Dickens's choice of a slow death in the workhouse or a quick one out of it for the poor — were to be avoided at all costs. Even clergymen were enlisted in cover-ups since, until the 1880s, proven suicides could not be buried in consecrated ground.
. Most Victorians, whatever their class or education, had stock assumptions about suicide: it was committed by the unhappy, the lonely, the lovelorn, the mad, the ruined — all poor unfortunates at the end of an emotional tether. Most coroners' inquests looked for such motives.
http://www.victorianweb.org/books/suicide/03.html
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By now, everyone has probably read the current section. Now is the perfect time, before we read on, to speculate. What is going on? How is Collins going to get around Rachel's eyewitness account? Or is he? Where is the Moonstone now, and how did it get there? How will Collins resolve this?
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I am remembering how if you commit suicide you could not be buried in a cemetery but it was probably a Christian cemetery they were talking about and if I remember probably it had something to do with any inheritance because I remember everyone helping my aunt and her 6 children who had to leave the house they were living in - too young to know all the details. And so I can see how Roseanna using the shivering sands kept her death to a minimum of secondary problems - and for that I guess you could say she or Collins does the rest of the characters a favor.
I am sure I am thinking how could they just because life is hard and unfair but then I am like as a kid looking at their choice through not only my eyes but from a mental state that is in control and not so seriously depressed - regardless the Victorian explanation - thanks for that - I still do not know what she had to be punished for that the noble thing was self punishment - a planned death is still something that makes me feel like shutting off and not dealing with it - so I am ready for the next section of this story.
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Tomorrow is our last day on this section. Does anyone feel they need more time?
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It's just too moving. Even in death Rosanna wants to draw Franklin to herself, to the Quivering Sands where she lies entombed. To the place where they first met. Hers was a hopeless love.
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I can't believe Rachel saw Franklin take the stone. I keep thinking that it was someone dressed in Franklin's clothes; but Rachel says that she saw his face. Was one or the other drugged, or did Franklin actually take the moonstone? Too many questions.....I must read on.
Sally
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Well, now, I have finished reading this book- whew a lot of reading - but had to keep going to find out who did steal the Moonstone. I know I did not contribute much but enjoyed reading all. It did help to see that family tree. I intended to read next The Women in White by the same author but will wait awhile - Looking forward to The short stories. Waafer
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What a turn of events!
I was quite interested in Collins' giving Jennings (in such an out of the way place) an interest in medical-scientific experiments. He also had Jennings observe that fevers seem to increase at night (I thought that was just me) and that the greatest danger of death comes in the period just before dawn. I've heard that the greatest likelihood occurs around 4am.
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JoanK
What did I mean by over identification with every character?
When Collins writes from a specific character's viewpoint , as he does i this book, we are completely immersed in that person's character and what is going on inside that person's head, heart and even soul. First and foremost we are engaged in that person's narrative to the point that we start identifying with that person.
In other words , we forget the rest of the story and the other people's thoughts and actions. This is brought almost ad absurdum to the forefront in Rosanna's long, literary letter. He doesn't quite pull it off in that case . However when we read Miss Clacks version we forget everything else, even the moonstone.
In this book the only "villains" are people we don't know because we have not had their point of view i.e. Mr. Luker and the Indians . In other words the villains are not fleshed out while the "good people" are given to us too fleshed out.
I don't know if I have made this point clear enough. But perhaps I will find examples of it as we continue.
As a contrast, Dickens fleshes out good and evil more or less equally. If we hate someone we have a flesh and blood person to hate and not a cardboard cutout.
Perhaps that is why Moonstone is a mystery and Dickens books are great literature.
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First and foremost we are engaged in that person's narrative to the point that we start identifying with that person.
I'm digressing from the point you were making, Judy, but this is one of the reasons Collins has Rosanna speak for herself, though servants didn't figure much as people in the literature of the time. Collins felt strongly about the random injustice that resulted in unearned misery for people who had bad luck--deserted by a father, born ugly, etc. He wanted us to understand this woman on the fringe of society.
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Someone who doesn't get to speak in her own voice is Rachel Verinder. Has Collins fleshed her out enough for us to see what she's like? What about her super-fastidiousness? She feels degraded by associating with anyone who lacks principles, even if she had no way of knowing their true character. What will happen as she sees more of the real world, where no one is perfect and we all have weaknesses?
What do you think of her?
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I will start setting my alarm for 4am, check my heartbeat, and say a prayer for all the souls taking flight from life to...what was it Hamlet was wondering about? Then I wonder what Miss Clack would say. Of course she would say, it's not when you die, but how you die.
Thanks, Jude, for telling us more about what you meant with Collins' over identification re his characters. I am still pondering about how to reply. You make some very good points. I've decided that the mystery of the diamond is the least part of the story. I've enjoyed the way the characters are allowed to tell it the way they see it. In fact they themselves become the story. I wish Rachel and Penelope had been given a chance to contribute their versions. What's the moonstone compared to hot button issues like drugs, romance, religion and human nature? And each character is a foil for the others. Drusella and Rosanna. Can you imagine a greater contrast in lives?
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Jude: " In other words the villains are not fleshed out while the "good people" are given to us too fleshed out. ...
As a contrast, Dickens fleshes out good and evil more or less equally. If we hate someone we have a flesh and blood person to hate and not a cardboard cutout.
Perhaps that is why Moonstone is a mystery and Dickens books are great literature"
That's a GREAT point. I hadn't thought of it, but you're right.
No one asked for more time, so I guess we're moving on tomorrow (We'll have to get busy with the questions)
Sorry you couldn't wait for us, WAAFER. Maybe you could come in at the end, and give us your impressions.
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Well, SALAN is stumped. So was I. Anyone else have ideas?
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OK, who, beside Waafer, went ahead and finished the book. Fess up. If everyone did, we might as well jump to the end.
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And each character is a foil for the others. Drusella and Rosanna. Can you imagine a greater contrast in lives?
Don't forget that thought, Jonathan; we'll see more of it.
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Pat has put the new questions up.
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Well, I did finish the book and besides it was a library book. But it means I cannot say anything either, except I think Clack and Rosanna too were padding, or as one of you said more elegantly, brought in to lengthen the book. I wonder if Rosanna was necessary for the nightgown discovery and hiding, otherwise her behavior seems so gratuitous. Young women in the 19th century may have committed suicide after they were, shall we say, deluded and abandoned, but suddenly developing an insanely desperate attachment to someone she glimpses from afar and then stalks and fantasizes about? It doesn't make sense to me except as padding. And a minor aside, Why is Ezra Jennings' name considered to be so ugly? Jennings to me is normal English, and we are used to having many Ezra's in earlier American centuries. Well, that's something I can bring up without spoiling anything.
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Good points, ZULEMA. Did you feel sorry for either Rosanna or Exra? Why are they so repugnant to people?
Anyone else read ahead?
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I find Rachel very shallow and spoiled. Everyone seemed to tip toe around her, even the constable couldn't question her. I'm reading on; but haven't finished the book, yet. When are we supposed to be finished with it? I'm about ready for it to end. Just hope the ending is satisfying.
Sally
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We have over 100 pages to go. Pat and I thought that would be too much in one gulp. so we planned about 70 for tomorrow and another 30 next time. But we can finish in one gulp if everyone wants to.
New questions are up!
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The next chunk goes through Ezra Jennings' narrative. It's a good place to pause, since it solves one part of the mystery but not all.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrativeo
April 21-25: Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD
April 26-May 1: SECOND PERIOD: first two narratives:Miss Clack and Mr. Bruff
May 2-6: the first part of Franklin Blake's narrative, through Chapter VII, ending with "I saw her, and heard her, no more".
May 7-11: Franklin Blake's narrative, Chapter VIII to end, all of Ezra Jennings' Narrative.
Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg) |
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For Your Consideration
May 7-11: The rest of Franklin Blake's narrative, and all of Ezra Jennings' narrative.
1. Events in this section involve several points of medical science, all accepted as true in Collins’ time. Which ones are still accepted today? Does this matter for our enjoyment of the story?
2. Even in their first, casual encounters, Ezra Jennings and Franklin Blake each find the other interesting, hard to forget. Why would there be such an attraction?
3. Jennings is the latest in a series of characters who are wholly or partly not English in their origin or thoughts. How does Collins use these traits?
4. Has Collins effectively blended suspense, pathos, and humor in this section?
5. Inspector Cuff has been proven wrong. What is Collins' view of the detective? What is yours?
6. We now know who took the moonstone, but the mystery is not solved. Where do you think the moonstone is and how did it get there?
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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I'm ready to get to the end.
My thoughts are mean ones.
Collins got paid by the installment. The longer he dragged the story out the longer he got paid for his weekly chapters.
I am ready to get off this roller coster and onto something else.
That doesn't mean I am not enjoying the book , but enough is enough.
I am ready to finish the book but not the discussion.
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Do we agree that Wilkie C set out to write a mystery - rather than a romance, as the title indicates? I see a big difference between Dickens' tales and what Collins is attempting here. He has set has set out to keep us guessing, looking under every rock for that diamond. While "fleshing" out his characters, expounding on human nature, he's also providing clues to the mystery.
I am quite amused by the way he points his finger at each new character, and then backs away as we find that character likeable after all. A matter of first impressions being off the mark. Ezra Jennings seemed real suspicious at first, but after the negative "gipsy description" I knew he'd turn out to be a good guy...before Collins actually presented his narrative. I'm at the point where I'm wondering why Betteredge and Bruff are both in league against him. These two I trust and they don't trust EJ. Wilkie has his work cut out for him - proving the instincts of both of these men to be wrong...as well as proving that Rachel didn't see what she claims she did.
I don't "hate" any of the characters. Godfrey Ablewhite is not likable, probably won't be until the end...but I feel sorry for him the same way I feel about Miss Clack. These aren't bad guys. Neither are the Indians. They are attempting to retrieve the diamond for a noble reason. I don't know what will happen to the diamond...my hope is that it goes back to India with them.
I'm looking forward to an explanation why Sergeant Cuff was so certain that nobody stole the diamond. DId he think that Rachel has it? If not, what did he think happened to it. This was the man who knew everything, the last we saw him.
I'm enjoying the ride...really don't want to rush to the end of the line just to get to the end of the line. Maybe it's because I haven't read this before. I can see where those who have seen all the sights before are eager to get off the train. Can't we spend just a few more days reading/discussing this experiment section, or are we to start talking about the solution today - before everyone has finished?
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Am I the only one here who doesn't like Franklin Blake? Why do we tolorate him living off everyone else's money? And why do all the women think they have to clean up his messes?
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JoanP: we definately need to discuss the experiment!
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JoanK, I thought FB inherited a bunch of money at some point in the book. I guess a lot of youngsters (gals included because occupations for them was still frowned upon) from rich families sponged off their parents for quite some time. I don't recall once any mention of FB gaining an occupation. At least Godfrey involved himself in charity work. Even so, he seems to be occupied in trying to marry into wealthier family money.
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What confuses me about Ezra is the description of his hair - in one part it is described as black on top and all white around the sides and then someplace it says he is piebald which to me means he has no hair on top and thought maybe it is his dark skin that is the big contrast between what hair he has - in fact the picture I get of that makes him feel less threatening - the other two colored or all and no color hair makes him seem like a threat and why is Franklin giving him so much information - so far I am back in his lab/office after he went his way on the road to meet a patient and Franklin impatiently waits for him putting off the meeting with Betteredge.
When I flip characters men for women all I see is there is no man who is made to appear as flibberty gibbet reacting slightly hysterical as Rachel and no man is tied to his poverty with no way of changing his circumstances as Drusilla and no man, even the gardener as low man on the totem pole, would see a physical impediment as side tracking him from acceptance or a future nor any man whose role in life is limited to sitting around on chairs as the elder mothers in the story - and so I see Collins simply writing women characters as powerless caricatures of the day - I do not see any of these women similar to Caddy Jellyby/Turveydrop or Mrs. Bagnet - I guess we could see similarities between Miss Clack and Mrs. Jellyby
You really opened up my eyes Jude to how shallow the bad guys are described and yet, I wonder does that mean they are really not so bad and we are simply trying to figure out who really is the bad guy so that giving the bad guy a full description would give away the mystery.
I do like how Dickens gives us every kind of character in his stories so that he is not limiting all the women to lightweights with no power dependent upon the men and using their feminine wiles to get what they want. However, Collins is brilliant to have the hero now suspect as the villain.
I wonder why the three areas of England - does the setting of these three areas have any cross over to the story - the place in the country - London - Brighton. I can see a play on words with Brighton ironically the location for the raging Applewhite but why do they keep flitting off to London during the story?
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I've seen one or two men who had black hair on the sides and a white stripe through the middle, but that may have been on TV. I am more used to seeing men with hair one color and beards another.
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To reply to you, Joan K, I did not feel sorry for either Ezra or Rosanna, they are characters in a novel put there for the writer's purpose. I sympathized with Jennings because he is thoughtful and informed yet repels people by his appearance. Rosanna is malformed but since she is a servant girl, I don't think people are repelled by her malformation and limp to the same degree. I somehow have not felt any sympathy for her actions, including her attempt to cover up for Franklin. Collins having her acquire the material for the (fancy) nightgown, sewing it (where did she learn this?), devising a secure hiding place and instructions, then writing a long explanatory letter (in the best English) seem to me far-fetched on Collins's part. It is a clever device to completely undo Franklin's sense of self and give himself over to Betteredge but not quite. Betteredge is against the experiment because it upsets his sense of order and convention. With Bruff it is more a question of logic and facts. Collins had to wind up the novel, and the solving of a mystery to the satisfaction of its readers is to this day a difficult proposition.
And to answer another comment, we are supposed to like Franklin within the book's context. He is a young man of great integrity above all, and the descendant of another, we mustn't forget.
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We're missing someone. Scottieluvr/Pamela, have you given up on us, or are you just taking a break?
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I cannot find where Jennings is introduced to us - is he Indian - that is what I thought and how did he hook up as Dr. Candy's assistant? This is why I am not so sure about reading on the kindle - it is so hard for me to backtrack to find things especially since there are no page numbers but whatever this other monster number is 5000 something. And then telling me how many minutes left - what is that all about - do they even know how fast or slow I read? Well neither here nor there at this point I am not buying the book but I will know better the next time. And so that is why I am asking for help to explain further Jennings. He does seem helpful to Franklin and yes, I thought I read that Franklin had from an Aunt received a sizable inheritance either while he was in Europe or just before he left for Europe.
Interesting that we have opium featured - was not this the drug of choice for Sherlock Holmes - reading here both Collins and Dickinson - and didn't we read Sherlock Holmes in the past 2 years - all three authors touch on the important social issues of the day. Jane Austin wrote earlier in the century however, little has changed in the way wealth worked and its importance is still paramount, the missionary zeal for men and women and the pompous in the church is used to describe characters similar to the work of Anthony Trollope in his Barchester Chronicles. The importance of the law in which Dickinson shows how debouched the system that a Sherlock Holmes could only exist if the police and legal system were wanting - and now we have the issue of opium that I do not remember Dickinson including as an issue but we have it as a feature by Collins and Arthur Canon Doyle. And what is amazing to me looking at the dates while all this is going on in England we are fighting the most devastating war with the highest number of dead in our history of wars followed by the continuous push taking over Indian lands.
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" I do not remember Dickinson including opium as an issue" Barbara
Barb...I'm thinking that you are referring to Charles Dickens here? Opium, Laudanum was an accepted drug for pain to ease pain at this time. Both Dickens and Collins suffered from gout... I don't remember if Dickens became addicted to and abused opium, but do remember the part OPIUM played in his last novel...the Mystery of Edwin Drood. I remember from the details of the the choirmaster's addiction that Charles Dickens was quite familiar with this addiction. It known at the time that Wilkie Collins shared this addiction.
Just found this... "Charles Dickens -The author of A Tale of Two Cities and A Christmas Carol was addicted to opium for many years and used the drug heavily right up to the time of his death (by massive stroke)."
"Opium was regularly prescribed for medical reasons by Collins's doctor, Frank Beard, as a pain killer and sedative - never for mere gratification. Despite various attempts to give up the habit, using hypnosis by John Elliotson in 1863 and morphia by injection in 1869, Collins took increasingly large doses 'by the tablespoon' until in later life he became totally dependent."
http://www.wilkie-collins.info/wilkie_collins_opium.htm
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I'm looking for the first introduction of Ezra Jennings into the plot. In the beginning of Chapter IX in Franklin Blake's narrative - I believe this is the first time Franklin comes face to face with Jennings - following his visit with Mr. Candy on his teturn to Yorkshire. I remember being suspicious of Jennings the minute I read that he took over for Mr. Candy after Mr. Candy became ill the night of Rachel's birthday dinner. The poor man cannot remember what it was he wanted to tell Franklin about that night...
Collins makes us aware of Jenning's striking appearance...namely his "parti-coloured" or later described as "piebald" hair. I'd never associated piebald with humans...horses, dogs, maybe - Jennings' hair was black on top and white on the sides. This seems to suggest mixed blood - implied that he was a social outcast, because of this... "foreign." It is suggested he came from the colonies. We are to assume he is "Indian." His appearance seems to be the main reason people shy away from him. He's the doctor now, and soon we learn he is suffering from some unspecified disease or illness...and also is addicted to laudanum - just like the author!
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hhhu - that means an intake of breath - yes Dickens - got carried away and did not check the spell check - ah so - anyhow I had no idea that Collins himself was addicted - seems to be a normal rather than as today we give this addiction all sorts of cultural opinions. Had not read the Mystery of Edwin Drood although I saw the TV Brit version and did not know that the use of opium was included in the story - I just think it is fascinating to see through reading the issues of the day and by comparing several authors writing during the same time in history including the same issues in their stories I can't help but imagine they were touching on the issues of the day. And more amazing is that at this time we in the states are reading Longfellow, Hawthorn, Emerson, Whitman, Twain, Harte and Alcott - who present a very different picture of life.
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Loose ends: Barb, while Franklin Blake was abroad after the theft of the Moonstone, his father died, leaving him a considerable estate. Before then, he had a reasonable income (allowance, I assume) which he managed to overspend.
Yes, JoanP, I'm pretty sure that the first time Franklin gets to converse with Ezra Jennings is at the end of his visit to Mr. Candy. But he has seen Jennings several times before--once when Jennings looks in on Betteredge to give him the weekly list of sick people in the town who could use a gift of medicinal wine, once at the railway station. Each time, Blake is unaccountably struck by Jennings, and somehow fascinated.
We never learn what the non-English half of Jennings is. He says he was born in one of the colonies. "my father was English, but my mother..." He breaks off here.
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ah so thanks both JoanP and PatH for filling in Jennings and how he is introduced to us. And so it was the Dad's death - What an amazing bit of research Jennings accomplishes giving Franklin a key to what Dr. Candy could not remember but what he said while he was ill. I was glued to that whole bit.
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We had a very good discussion of Dickens' Edwin Drood here. Indeed, one of the main characters, John Jasper, is an opium addict. The book opens with a scene in an opium den, and since it's told from the point of view of Jasper's delusions, it takes a while to figure out what on earth is going on, unless you are a Sherlock Holmes fan. If you are, you recognize a very similar scene from one of the short stories. Holmes wasn't an opium addict. Cocaine was his thing.
Collins said in an introduction to the book that he wrote Miss Clack's narrative while taking huge amounts of opium for a very painful bout of gout. He knew the effects of the drug very well, and his description of Ezra Jennings' struggles are assumed to be semi-autobiographical.
All this was legal, and accepted medical practice at the time. It seems to have taken a long time for people to realize just how dangerous the drug can be.
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BARB: "And more amazing is that at this time we in the states are reading Longfellow, Hawthorn, Emerson, Whitman, Twain, Harte and Alcott - who present a very different picture of life."
What a fascinating point! Another universe! what accounts for the difference, do you all think?
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JoanK
What accounts for the difference between the American and the British authors?
Just off the top of my head I would say two things:
1) England is an old country with many traditions, much history and Royalty( born to their positions).
America is a young country just beginning to make traditions and its history is very recent. It is trying to be a real Democracy without Royalty and inherited titles.
2)England is a small country surrounded by water. It is civilized and settled everywhere.It's new frontiers are countries which it conquers.
America is a large country. At the time much unsettled or in the throes of being settled. For the most part the people (and authors) look inward toward their growing country for meaning and adventure and struggle (Indian wars, Civil War etc.).
This is not a full answer but I think it has many kernels of truth.
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Yes, Jude without "Royalty, a real Democracy" in all things including how a man is measured and how if he is not wealthy through an inheritance there is no blot but only opportunity.
To further your thought about the newness of America I am remembering when we read The Brave Vessel in preparation for reading Shakespeare's Tempest we learned how because of the Reformation, which represented for England a sense of freedom from the past, its constrictions and traditions, this had folks believing in a 'Golden Age' with the 'New' World representing the secluded, unspoiled place where the Golden Age would flower. During the time of Dickens and Collins we had just experienced a national horror however, most of the west was still being settled with America reminded of its closeness to the land and the ever expanded sense of great opportunity for self determination - really an extension of the Golden Age which is the cauldron dipped into by the American authors during this time in history.
Come to think of it not only would the story be a reaction to what happened in India but the Opium wars were going on at this time with England and China during the early war 1839-42 and the later war including all western nations represented in China 1856 -60 - I did not realize till I just read that Opium was grown in India and the first Opium war was about England wanting more tea using opium in trade. And so more sublet connections in the Moonstone with India and Opium.
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Jude S., I am also ready to be finished with this book. I have about 30 pages left & will finish today. In my opinion, the book has gone on a little too long.
Sally
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Even when you're finished, Sally, we'd like to hear what you think of the book - besides the fact that Mr. Collins has gone on "a little too long." ;) I'm interested to know if you - or anyone understands what Path has observed - Blake is drawn to Jennings from the beginning. What does he find so fascinating about him? Granted he looks different. Is it his soft dark eyes? How does Collins explain this mutual attraction?
Zulema pointed out that we are supposed to like Franklin Blake - "a man of great integrity." I'm not so sure about his integrity. He did, at great personal risk, bring the diamond back to Yorkshire, but the picture of him I got from the beginning was that of an irresponsible spendthrift... - though very likable. Everyone likes him, in spite of his shortcomings...including Jennings, apparently. But what is it that draws Franklin likes Jennings? It seems that Mr. Candy saw something in Jennings too. He took him on as his assistant when no one else would hire him. This was a sympathy, a trust, that Betteredge and Bruff did not share.
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Great points, Jude and Barbara. I had never thought before in terms of comparing the literature of different countries at the same time in history, but it brings up all kinds of points.
It occurs to me that Betteridge represents an older generation's ideas, and Franklin (in some ways) the new generation, with all his foreign ideas and influences. He (the "new" generation) is attracted to the foreign and strange, and Betteridge (the old generation) suspicious of the same.
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It looks like everyone has already finished off the book, or is ready to. Let's take about another day to talk about this section, through Ezra Jennings' experiment and its outcome, then add on the remainder of the book.
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I guess I shouldn't say much more today about the plot. Wait for tomorrow. By "integrity" I mean how Franklin Blake relates to other people, his truthfulness, his lack of malice, his honorable dealings with his fellowmen and women; and I think he senses the same qualities in Jennings, and he is right in doing so.
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In his preface Collins says
"In some of my former novels, the object proposed has been to trace the influence of circumstances upon character. In the present story I have reversed the process. The attempt made here is to trace the influence of character on circumstances. The conduct pursued, under a sudden emergency, by a young girl, supplies the foundation on which I have built this book."
Various opinions have been expressed of Rachel's behavior. Now that we know what really happened, what should Rachel have done? She sees the man she loved steal her diamond. She realizes that, in spite of her horror at this, she still loves him and can't bear for him to be caught. How could she handle it? What else could she have done?
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Zulema, we're already discussing Jennings' story, except for the final bit, so say what you like up through there.
I agree with you that Franklin sees the integrity in Jennings and responds to it. Why does he see it when others don't? Perhaps his education abroad and his travels make him more willing to look beyond the difference in a person to see what he's really like. There are other bases for attraction too.
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Would you agree that Franklin Blake is the central character of the book? From what Wilkie has written in his Preface, as PatH just quoted, his character determines circumstances too, as much as Rachel's does, don't you think?
What might Rachel have done? For starters, she could have stopped Franklin in the act, as soon as she saw him take the stone. His trance state would have been obvious and Mr. Candy would have confessed to dosing him in the morning. But, we wouldn't have a plot then, would we? ;D
JoanK - I think you're right...Mr. Betteredge and Mr. Bruff are of another generation - capable of change though, as we see both of them charmed by Ezra Jennings. Poor Jennings, a terminal illness, an addiction, and now the loss of his only friend in the world. More sympathetic a creature than Rosanna, in my opinion - both smitten by the charming Mr. Blake.
Jonathan, I meant to thank you for fixing the image in my mind, of Rosanna's scheme to lure her beloved - so close, right over the Shivering Sands where her body lay. Collins' readers must have been swooning over this!
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For me, the big unanswered question - what made Sergeant Cuff so certain that the diamond was not stolen? How did he know it was an "inside" job? Does he know it is still in the house?
Is it? When the experiment failed and Franklin fell asleep due to the overdose, why did they all take off for London? Do they no longer believe it is in Franklin's room? What am I missing?
And this probably isn't important...but did any of you find it odd that the floor of Rachel's sitting room was covered with pins? Maybe Penelope knew something about that. What did you think when you read that - anything?
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'How did he (Seargent Cuff) know it was an "inside" job?'
That puzzled me too, JoanP. I finally accepted the hints that Cuff himelf provided, that this was another family scandal and he was brought in for damage control. The Moonstone had been a problem in the family for fifty years. John Herncastle, the 'bad guy' in the story, was turned into the blacksheep of the family when he returned to England with the diamond. His sister refused to have the murderer in her house.
'Smitten by the charming Mr Blake.' I think that's the key to many questions in the book. Everybody liked him. Several loved him. Rosanna's love must have captivated many readers. She's the true romantic in the book. And she tells her story with such honesty. Compare that with Miss Clack's casuitry. The thief Rosanna and the holier-than-thou Drusilla.
Franklin was Betteredge's favorite in the family.
And then there is the unusual 'attraction' between Franklin and Ezra Jenkins. I think the author sneaked a little homoerotic red herring into his plot with this attraction.
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Jude raised a very interesting idea when she suggested the differences between national literatures. Let's also take into account another mentioned in the book. The French novels! Still talked about. In the U.S., one must always keep in mind the Puritan attitudes that were so pervasive for so long.
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Question: What British colonies are likely to have produced a "gipsy complexion" on Mr. Jennings? The only ones I can think of might be Gibraltar or Malta. Cyprus became British for a while in 1878, after the book was written. Minorca was held for only a few years, 1798 to 1802.
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JONATHAN: it was Barb who brought up the differences in literature. It is fascinating. And then you throw the French in, how were they different? (Hmmm. What were the Italians writing? The Germans?).
I'm begining to sound like Brtteridge with his influences on Franklin Blake.
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JOANP: so someone finally commented: after the big experiment we STILL don't know what happened to the moonstone. In the experiment, Franklin just dropped it. Where is it? In the bank? How did it get there?
Tommorrow, we read the end, and all is revealed!
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Question: What British colonies are likely to have produced a "gipsy complexion" on Mr. Jennings? The only ones I can think of might be Gibraltar or Malta. Cyprus became British for a while in 1878, after the book was written. Minorca was held for only a few years, 1798 to 1802.
Jennings is fortyish, so he would have been born 1800 or after. If you scroll down past 2 maps in this link, you will see a bar chart of what was part of the Empire at different times. It could have been India, any of a number of Caribbean places, or Australia. I had sort of assumed the Caribbean, for no good reason except there was a lot of intermarrying there, but India would fit well too.
http://www.atlasofbritempire.com/ (http://www.atlasofbritempire.com/)
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Re: Jennings
I'm sure it says somewhere that he came from the Carribean Islands. I think probably Jamaica which belonged to England from 1622 to 1960 (approx.).
Joan K
You are the one who asked about the differences between American and British Lit. during the same years.
I answered you and Barb added to my answer.
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I always thought of gypsies as being of Eastern European decent (Romany). That is not necessarily so according to several sources I checked. It could mean that Jennings looked Egyptian because some believed that they originated in Egypt. Today they are believed to have originated in northern India.
The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) states a 'gipsy' is a
member of a wandering race (by themselves called Romany), of Indian origin, which first appeared in England about the beginning of the 16th c.
The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) states a 'gipsy' is a
member of a wandering race (by themselves called Romany), of Indian origin, which first appeared in England about the beginning of the 16th c.
So, those who speculated Jennings could be of Indian origin may be close to the mark.
A little off the subject, but if you are interested here is what Wikipedia has to say about the Romani (Gypsy) people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romani_people#Origin
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The floodgates are open. We can talk about any part of the book now. Now doubt JoanK and I will think of some questions and put them up.
I think "gypsy complexion" was used to mean dark-skinned, without necessarily implying gypsy origin. I'm pleased to read that article. So they've done genetic testing and confirmed the Indian origin of gypsies.
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I am not sure why Collins found it necessary to kill Godfrey off. The Indians could have easily gotten the Moonstone from him and escaped, but what would have been his punishment, if any, otherwise. I have to say I thought he was the culprit all along not for any plot clues but just looking at his character traits. Collins makes him out to be a thorough cad. I am glad I finally read the book, though many questions are left unanswered in it, even the silly one about Franklin's heavy cigar habit which Rachel disliked and his withdrawal symptoms that led to the possibility of the trick on him. He is back smoking his cigars and Rachel is marrying him regardless, but Collins was probably too much in pain to worry little details.
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Good for you for guessing, Zulema. It's been so long since the first time I read the book that I'm not sure, but I don't think I did.
I wondered about the cigars too. Since Franklin has just gone through the worst bit of giving them up, he ought to continue. But somehow neither of the happy pair looked like they were in the mood for bothering to negotiate smoking issues.
I wonder if Collins smoked? He seems to feel strongly about the pain of giving it up.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrativeo
April 21-25: Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD
April 26-May 1: SECOND PERIOD: first two narratives:Miss Clack and Mr. Bruff
May 2-6: the first part of Franklin Blake's narrative, through Chapter VII, ending with "I saw her, and heard her, no more".
May 7-11: Franklin Blake's narrative, Chapter VIII to end, all of Ezra Jennings' Narrative.
Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg) |
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For Your Consideration
May 10-? The rest of the book.
1. Nowdays mystery readers expect an author to "play fair"--give enough information so the reader has at least some chance of guessing the solution. Does Collins play fair?
2. The opening and closing scenes of the book take place in India, and deal with events in the moonstone's history. What does this do for the book?
3. How is a part of Ablewhite's life something like Collins'? How did they differ in this?
4. We see four people or groups who are foreign to various degrees, by birth, training, or experience: The Indians, Mr. Murthwaite, Ezra Jenkins, and Franklin Blake. How does their foreignness affect the people around them? How does it affect you?
5. How does this book reflect the ideas and concerns of its time and place? How, if at all, are his ideas advanced for his time?
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
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'I am not sure why Collins found it necessary to kill Godfrey off.' Good point, Zulema. And there are so many other details to wonder about. What will you remember about the book? It certainly is an elaborate construction.
Just a quick guess would be that Collins was looking for symmetry with the death of Godfrey. The Moonstone began with murder and now ends with murder. Perhaps Collins wanted to disappoint Miss Clack who had her heart set on Godfrey. He certainly wanted to put a dagger into her heart.
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Maybe he was tired of writing, and killing him off was quicker than any other ending he could think of. :D
This does foreshadow on of the "unwritten rules" of modern mystery fiction: the guilty one has to be punished for their crime. That's one of the things I like about mysteries: their sense of justice. Bad things and bad people happen but, at least in this artificial world, justice triumphs.
We may feel death is a rather severe punishment for theft. But not, perhaps, to the Indians, who saw this not just as theft, but as sacrilege.
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Forgot the earlier part - how about that breakfast??!!?? AND it was chosen because he was not hungry?!?
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At the end, when the Moonstone was returned to its place of worship, the three Brahmins who brought it back were essentially banished from the area and from each other to wander about the rest of their lives. I don't think it was stated explicitly, but would that have been because they killed to get the Moonstone back? That would have been a big fat no-no to the Hindus, especially to the Brahmin (scholar/priest) class.
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I think also that Collins wanted a sensational ending, with lots of dramatic events.
The Brahmins had doubly sacrificed their caste in the service of the God of the Moon: by crossing the water, and by dressing as members of lower castes. Spending the rest of their lives in pilgrimage was the means decreed by the god (presumably through his priests) for purifying them from this.
By the way, one of the many sore points leading to the Sepoy Mutiny was the British desire to change their previous agreement that native troops would not be sent to fight in areas that had to be reached by water.
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Ring-around-a-rosy they all fall down - we suspected the three Indians when the story started and all these side stories are held together by the sightings or expected sightings of the Indians - Interesting format with a love story - forgot she was only nineteen - loved the description of Gooseberry's wandering eyes -
Did we ever learn what Jennings' debilitating illness was that put him is such pain he needed to take the laudanum?
All that in and out of the trap door with bolts and the silence of Applewhite before his death confused me but I got the gist of it.
Which one was worse Godfrey, a trustee for two boys,who spent their money on his mistress or John Herncastle for taking the diamond after the raid in India?
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Sorry for my absence, I’ve been busy with home and yard work. I did read everyone’s posts to keep me abreast of the conversation. :)
Overall, this was an enjoyable read. The Moonstone’s plot was dominated by a sweet mystery, but I would never deem it a romance. I proudly confess to being a romance junkie, since my teen years, and this story’s central focus was not on love and happily-ever-after.
The characters were intriguing and fun. I benefitted from Collins use of a diarist narration to provide character insights and their roles within this mystery.
However… I must confess, The Moonstone was extremely wordy. Proven by the fact I had to put this book down too many times, an unusual act for me. The excessive details did not spark a captivating pictorial experience for me. I don’t like having every detail provided me…
I truly believed Rosana Spearman stole the diamond and threw it in the Shivering Sands, and then expected Collins to bring us back to that area in the end. Another point, it doesn’t surprise me that Godfrey stole the diamond to repay money that wasn’t his; used to support his lavish lifestyle. However his dying shocked me – didn’t see that coming. I anticipated Franklin and Rachel getting back together.
I will enjoy reading this story again. :)
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Oh, good, Pamela, you're back for the windup. Agreed, the main focus is not on the romance. The wordiness can be a problem. Some of us have recently read two books by Dickens here, so we've gotten used to it, as Dickens is just as wordy.
Godfrey's death surprised several of us. He had to be punished, but death is more than enough. (I was going to say overkill, but thought the better of it.) He wouldn't have had much of a life once he was discovered, though. Jail for the theft of the diamond and the boy's inheritance, and when he got out, the loss of everything he cared about--total contempt from everyone, no chance of doing the things he had done before, and possibly still liable for the stolen money.
Jonathan points out that beginning and ending the book with murder makes for symmetry. It's a double symmetry. At the start, the wicked John Herncastle murders 3 Indians to steal the diamond. At the end, 3 indians murder a Herncastle (on his mother's side) to get the diamond back.
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I thought the last bit with Mr. Murthwaite in India describing the ceremony was lovely - very romantic - not in the man loves a women but the romance of place and word description - the stuff of dreams - a fitting ending to a Victorian story
Amazing to know a story that well as the author knows Robinson Caruso that like finding bible verse he can pick out all events in the story as Betteredge experiences them and fit a sentence to the event.
For the time in history Jennings led a long life - seems to me he was described as in his seventies which is the age of of Betteredge as well.
Betteredge's book tobacco scent walking reminded me - have any of you ever purchased a used book from Amazon that arrived wreaking of cigarettes or marijuana - inevitably those smelling from cigarettes come from the Carolinas and once from Kentucky while those with overwhelming marijuana fumes are from Oregon.
Compared to Dickens, Collins sure had included lots of unexpected twists and turns - Godfrey's death was not as dramatic as Tulkinghorn's but as unexpected and poor Jennings died with a lengthy illness similar to Richard Carstone - do you think Jennings had consumption - or what was his illness?
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Jennings himself says he is forty. He looks much older because of the disease and his sufferings from the false accusation. We are told his disease is an incurable internal complaint, but not what it is. I don't think it's consumption; the description doesn't fit.
I like your comment about the used books. :)
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Jonathan points out that beginning and ending the book with murder makes for symmetry. It's a double symmetry. At the start, the wicked John Herncastle murders 3 Indians to steal the diamond. At the end, 3 indians murder a Herncastle (on his mother's side) to get the diamond back.
Or karma??? :D :D :D :D
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Betteredge's book tobacco scent walking reminded me - have any of you ever purchased a used book from Amazon that arrived wreaking of cigarettes or marijuana - inevitably those smelling from cigarettes come from the Carolinas and once from Kentucky while those with overwhelming marijuana fumes are from Oregon.
Sadly, my collected paperbacks suffered a familiar fate, why I won’t sell them online. My favorite used bookstore reeks of cigarette smoke too. I am still surprised when seeing people smoking, believed myself the last person to quit the habit. Obviously, a bit haughty on my part. :D
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Oh, good, Pamela, you're back for the windup. Agreed, the main focus is not on the romance. The wordiness can be a problem. Some of have recently read two books by Dickens here, so we've gotten used to it, as Dickens is just as wordy.
Its like “The Lord of Rings” series for me, I bought the books because I enjoyed the movies so much. And everyone declared the books were even better. However, I found the author overly proud of “seeing” the written word… :D So never finished the series. I vow to read them ALL, before I die. ;)
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Glad you're back, SCOTTIELUVR. I think we were all feeling that the book was too long. This is your first discussion here -- hope you like the way we do it.
Used books scented with cigarettes -- oh, yes! Marijuana, not so much (but I'm not sure I know what marijuana smells like). So I should avoid the Carolinas and Oregon in ordering used books? Hmmm.
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Thoughts on the book...It was rather wordy and went on too long. I can't say I was surprised about who stole the moonstone; but I was surprised that he was killed. In my opinion, the ending of a book should be worth the wait; and this one wasn't. Knowing that it was published as a serial explained some of the "wordiness" to me. The book made me want to read Robinson Crusoe again (shame on me, I haven't read it since my early teens.) I found it free on Amazon and will read it again one day.
Sorry I didn't enjoy it more.
Sally
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Now that the book is closed and only thoughts remain, I will attempt to state what Collins was trying to "preach" about or what the "meta-message" of the book was.
First and foremost it is about British Imperialism. We start off with Robinson Crusoe and Betteridge . Robinson Crusoe, (so says T.S.Eliot) is the story of an Englishman who is self sufficient but when he finds a black man on his island, makes him into a slave and turns him into a Christain.
The Indians in the book are devoted to their cause and have a different set of values than the Englishmen. Their religous beleifs also guide their lives. All religions have their demands.
So we have two serious subjects here, religion and imperialism.
(Does Mrs. Clack really represent Christianity in Collins's mind? or is he just using her for comic relief?)
The third subject of interest to Collins is the position of women in society. In general he shows respect for women and wishes to give them as much power as society allowed at the time. He tries to put them on an even footing with men but his society and its rules doesn't quite allow it.
I would say the book is a noble effort by Collins to put forth his ideas but it really succeeds only as the first mystery novel. But that is nothing to be ashamed, of I'm sure.
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:D :D ;) Seems the English turn as much as they can touch in the world into their "Great Expectations".
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I must say that as I progressed through the book I was absolutely sure that the moonstone had been stolen by Rosanna and of course disposed of in the shimmering sands. OK I was wrong.
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I finally went back and re-read the letter from Roseanna and it struck me - have any of you also read a story that included a secret lover replacing the love token given to the object of their affection for the love token given by the acknowledged lover? I am sure I read this in something -
While Googling to find any hint of where I could have read that scenario I did come upon this tidbit that I think is fascinating - looks like Collins took hook line and sinker the typical actions of a medieval Knight to his lady and simply reversed genders.
Chivalric or Courtly Love (known in medieval France as "fine love" or fin amour) originated with the so-called troubadours of the late eleventh century... By the middle of the 13th century, the troubadour philosophy had become practically institutionalized throughout the courts of Europe, and "fine love" had become the basis for a glamorous and exciting new style of life.
Ritualistic. Couples engaged in a courtly relationship conventionally exchanged gifts and tokens of their affair. The lady was wooed according to elaborate conventions of etiquette (cf. "courtship" and "courtesy") and was the constant recipient of songs, poems, bouquets, sweet favors, and ceremonial gestures. For all these gentle and painstaking attentions on the part of her lover, she need only return a short hint of approval, a mere shadow of affection. After all, she was the exalted domina--the commanding "mistress" of the affair; he was but her servus--a lowly but faithful servant.
Secret. Courtly lovers were pledged to strict secrecy. The foundation for their affair--indeed the source of its special aura and electricity--was that the rest of the world (except for a few confidantes or go-betweens) was excluded. In effect, the lovers composed a universe unto themselves--a special world with its own places (e.g., the secret rendezvous), rules, codes, and commandments.
Adulterous. "Fine love"--almost by definition--was extramarital. Indeed one of its principle attractions was that it offered an escape from the dull routines and boring confinements of noble marriage (which was typically little more than a political or economic alliance for the purpose of producing royal offspring). The troubadours themselves scoffed at marriage, regarding it as a glorified religious swindle. In its place they exalted their own ideal of a disciplined and decorous carnal relationship whose ultimate objective was not crude physical satisfaction, but a sublime and sensual intimacy.
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JUDE: "I would say the book is a noble effort by Collins to put forth his ideas but it really succeeds only as the first mystery novel. But that is nothing to be ashamed, of I'm sure."
As one who loves mystery novels, nothing to be ashamed of indeed!
I agree that it does not rise to the level of great literature. But that it deserves to be remembered through the generations.
What do you all think?
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waafer, in post 418, says 'OK I was wrong'. Couldn't that be said for all of us? I believe we were all being led up the garden path by the detective himself, wanting us to argue about how the path should be surfaced: grass or gravel.
But I think you were right, waafer, in giving a lot of attention to Rosanna. She is immeditately identified as a thief. And she does set her heart on stealing something. Rachel's diamond, of course. But which one? Or both?
The book is actually full of mysteries, not the least of them the effects of opium. Has anyone read De Quincey's Confessions of an English Opium Eater? And how it enhances ones dreams? Or ones literary efforts?
And Robinson Crusoe is a smokescreen, or wool over our eyes. The book was immensely popular and a monument to Defoe was being erected about the time The Moonstone came out.
My heart will always bleed for Rosanna.
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I'm not sure that Godfrey could be accused of stealing the diamond. It might be difficult to establish ownership in a court of law. Perhaps an accessory after the fact in the long history of the moonstone. It was Godfrey's living in sin that left him deserving punishment. Which was also true of Collins. No doubt he was always getting it from the religious people and Miss Clack's character was the result.
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Some odds and ends:
Jude, I don't think Clack represent's Christianity in Collins' eyes; I think he's making fun of something he disapproves of. And I bet it hit home. Those sermons some of you dug up are just like her.
Jonathan, whether or not Ablewhite's taking the diamond is stealing (I think it is, once he failed to give it back) when he pawned it to Luker that's disposal of stolen goods, so they could get him for that.
I had no idea there was a Robinson Crusoe boom at that time. Betteredge's use of it must have resonated with Collins' readers. Collins is also parodying people who can quote Scripture for absolutely everything.
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JUDE, as I've said before, I am very happy that I got to read this book finally, whether it is the first mystery novel or not. And I agree on your take of what Collins' main themes were. So many of the best mystery writers of the present weave into their plots much social commentary. In The Moonstone's case, the stone had to be returned to its rightful place for the world to become reasonable again, albeit the world we were given in the novel. Meanwhile there were plots and subplots to keep us entertained and guessing.
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It has been enjoyable rereading and talking about this Victorian classic. Of course I found more in it now than the sheer adventure I remember reading as a teenager. More history than mystery, the way I see it now.
Sergeant Cuff was a disappointment. I don't think he earned his fee. And yet despite his melancholy nature he did arouse a 'detective fever' in Betteredge, who should get a bigger credit for moving the story along. Cuff was happiest talking yard work with the gardener, and when the crisis comes he's in Ireland doing his own.
Dickens may have found the book wearisome, but Collins enjoyed the last laugh, when Dickens tried the opium theme in The Mystery of Edwin Drood. Of course we all found it tedious at times. The book should have been edited, but sales were so good, it was probably felt better not to rock the merry boat.
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Have you seen this new Kindle commercial - the little kids talking about the need for lovable characters. "You need loveable characters to enjoy the story." I hope you can read this - really cute... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwmbjwYtSBU
Do you believe that's true? Are lovable characters essential to a good story? And were there lovable characters in The Moonstone? I remember Zulema observing a week or two ago..."we're supposed to like Franklin Blake." I think that may have been Wilkie C's shortcoming - he didn't make his characters "lovable" enough - or he more or less told us which were the good, which were the bad...which to love, which to suspect. If you had to choose one - or even two characters you found lovable, who would you choose?
I didn't figure out who took the Moonstone - though I did believe that Cuff earned his fee, Jonathan - by concluding that the stone's disappearance was an inside job...though he did miss the Godfrey's involvement. THere was no way he could have figured that out. I vaguely remember thinking it was odd that Godfrey was allowed to leave the house the next morning when everyone else was told to remain in the house....No one suspected him at all.
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I thought the most lovable character was Betteridge, but only because I associated him with Carson of Downton Abbey, especially when he took umbrage that Rachel may have been involved in the disappearance of the diamond - Carson sticking up for Mary, always. Otherwise, I didn't think any of them were particularly lovable. I did feel some sympathy for Jennings, but oddly, not much for Roseanna.
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Seems to me there is an awful lot of "Looking for" in this story - they are all looking for something - almost like walking along the streets of a vacation town and stopping in all the quaint shops deciding if we liked the shop or not based on our looking for a certain kind of outcome. Seems to me that is how we as readers are "looking for". However, the characters in the stories - some are like the shops and some are like someone looking in the shops.
The Indians were looking for this stone long before Colonel Herncastle looked in the Palace for the gem.
Betteredge is like a shop. Characters stop at to get a dose of what it is like to live looking to match life experiences with his bible Robinson Caruso and he is looking to others for direction to live a life of service.
Godfry is looking, not only for money but, it appears the scintillating experiences money can buy as well as, he is looking for compliments to bolster his ego from his Christian ladies.
Godfry's father is looking for his version of justice and for money.
Roseanna is looking for acceptance and a love.
Cuff is looking to grow the perfect rose
Hmm Penelope is the only one I can think of that is not looking for anything in particular - maybe to make her Dad proud our her.
Rachel does a lot of looking - for a good time at her party - to decide on a husband - to keep her secret - bottom line she is looking for love.
Franklin does the most traveling and he is the one who touches on just about every character in the book as he is looking to discharge his responsibility to Rachel - looking to find the stone - fell in love along the way while not out looking for love but when it found him he looked to make right his relationship with Rachel.
He seems to be the one to be gobsmacked at his own behavior as he seems to be the one on the trail and so is this a quest story - the knight in shining armor looking for his amour while tracking down a stone that is the symbol of light, life, durable incorruptibility and sincere constancy, innocence. All the attributes we define as a token to a young women we love. Is this a quest for Franklin to better understand himself and what he is capable of while looking for a stone that symbolizes his also looking for love?
He is the only one in the story who changes so, loveable or not I am thinking he has to be the protagonist.
The stone does not change - it changes hands but it does not change - we are shown layers of Rachel but no scene of her learning something about herself - Betteredge, Godfrey, even Drusilla do not change where as Franklin's life is about learning in Europe's Universities - he learns about the Opium experiment and how he reacts using Opium - he learns he took the diamond and only later does he learn through the actions of others that he is not a thief and the biggie he learns he is in love - Rachel is looking for love where as Franklin realizes he is in love.
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BARB: "He [Franklin] is the only one in the story who changes so, loveable or not I am thinking he has to be the protagonist."
That's a good point. Maybe that's the weakness: there's little growth in this story.
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Maybe JoanK that is because the Victorians thought that they had it made in the shade and were at the top of the food chain in all things so they were more about the status quo and about changing the world to match their top of the line life - the Great Expectations of Britain to see the 'want' everywhere and give it a boost to be like them.
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In The Moonstone's case, the stone had to be returned to its rightful place for the world to become reasonable again, albeit the world we were given in the novel.
The stone does not change - it changes hands but it does not change
This is important. The story is framed by the two narratives--the theft of the diamond from Seringapatam and its return to the forehead of the god in Somnauth. You can say that this is the real story—the diamond managing to return to where it belongs. The details which make up the entertaining mystery we have just read are just the mechanism.
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hmm PatH makes me think more and more as if the Diamond is the Holy Grail - I think that is how I will remember this story.
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Besides being a mystery this book is also a "quest" story. It's not the Holy Grail but the Moonstone that everything centers upon.Both are seen as religous tokens to be worshipped.
Frybabe
I too liked Betteridge . He was a rather likeable chap but simple and yet wise.
I also liked Cuff who in his own way was clever and straight as an arrow. A man who adores Roses has to be loveable.
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Jude...I liked Gabriel Betteredge too...as you and Frybabe did. Do you think it was because he was of un certain age that we were able to relate to him? Old school? I'm wondering how Collins' readers regarded him and his habit of turning to Robinson Crusoe for guidance. Did they roll their eyes and snicker at him as they would at grand daddy?
Defoe seemed an unlikely mentor, didn't he? The theme of being marooned and cut off from everyone else is pervasive - as others have noted. But did Betteredge feel this way too - as Miss Clack, Rosanna, Jennings did? What did he see in Robinson Crusoe that provide him such an escape?
I looked up some information on Defoe - and found that Robinson Crusoe (1719) was his first
novel, and in fact many identify it as "the first novel written in the English language." Interesting because Defoe was born in 1660 - which if I figure right - he was just about 60 years old when he began his first novel -" the first novel in the English language." http://www.rcwalton.com/Robinson%20Crusoe.pdf
Maybe Betteredge recognized a kindred spirit in his writing.
Some of you have mentioned that you read Robinson Crusoe so many years ago, you hardly remember it. Same here. Would anyone be interested in reading it with our group on Senior Learn?
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I think that's a good idea, Joan P. Although, we all might be disenchanted when we read it as adults. It's free on Kindle and I am sure libraries all have at least one copy.
Betteredge was my favorite character in The Moonstone.
Sally
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I was sorry to see it end with so many still to be heard from. What a story the succeeding trios of Brahmins, who kept watch over the moonstone for a thousand years, could have to tell. Their precious diamond. Almost lost in the quicksands. Used by an unholy pagan to get himself out of financial difficulties. The diamond's sojourn in England was not a happy one.
People in the know still think that Robinson Crusoe can be discovered anew. How about the other one by Daniel Defoe? His well-known Moll Flanders. I've never read it, but a quick check gives me the impression that the book is a type of fifty shades of female trials and tribulations in merrie England. Of immorality and grace and sanctimonious twaddle. A curious combination of Drusilla and Rosanna? A bio of Daniel Defoe has the book dealing with 'marriage, bringing up children, work, money, fame, power, adventure, war, politics and religion.' That could stretch the limits of our enchantments.
My Reader's Encyclopedia has this about it: 'The heroine is a woman of extraordinary beauty, born in the Old Bailley. She is twelve years a harlot, five years a wife, twelve years a thief, and eight years a convict in Virginia; but ultimately she becomes rich, lives honestly, and dies a penitent in the reign of Charles II.'
All that in 300 pages.
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Jonathan, I read Moll Flanders many years ago, and can recommend it. The heroine is nothing like either Drusilla or Rosanna, though. She is cheerfully immoral, and flits from man to man, with many liasons and marriages, and a large number of children, who always end up someone else's responsibility.
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Uh, oh! I didn't know Defoe wrote Moll Flanders :-[. Never saw the movie; never read the book.
I enjoyed reading The Moonstone.
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Ha - Moll Flanders could be enshrined for us today an icon of success - take away our or her moral values of proprietary and family - she used what she had when there were few to no doors open for a women and made a huge financial success with her assets, skills, and her brain. You gotta love her...
As to Robinson Crusoe that whole bit about Friday and the white faced ingeniousness was not my cup of tea. It was written in a way that made me uncomfortable and only years later after reading Edward Said's Orientalism was I able to put words to my uncomfort.
Part of why Betteredge was not my favorite - his obsession to Crusoe made me think he would like to reverse his situation and control others which he often did by using his control of the house granted to him by Lady Verinder - I found him too oily.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover.jpg) | In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrativeo
April 21-25: Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD
April 26-May 1: SECOND PERIOD: first two narratives:Miss Clack and Mr. Bruff
May 2-6: the first part of Franklin Blake's narrative, through Chapter VII, ending with "I saw her, and heard her, no more".
May 7-11: Franklin Blake's narrative, Chapter VIII to end, all of Ezra Jennings' Narrative.
Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/155/155-h/155-h.htm)
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/moonstone/moonstonecover2.jpg) |
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For Your Consideration
May 10-? The rest of the book.
1. Nowdays mystery readers expect an author to "play fair"--give enough information so the reader has at least some chance of guessing the solution. Does Collins play fair?
2. The opening and closing scenes of the book take place in India, and deal with events in the moonstone's history. What does this do for the book?
3. How is a part of Ablewhite's life something like Collins'? How did they differ in this?
4. We see four people or groups who are foreign to various degrees, by birth, training, or experience: The Indians, Mr. Murthwaite, Ezra Jenkins, and Franklin Blake. How does their foreignness affect the people around them? How does it affect you?
5. How does this book reflect the ideas and concerns of its time and place? How, if at all, are his ideas advanced for his time?
DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com) & PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net)
Moll Flanders sounds like a fascinating read.
After Robinson Crusoe's lack of female companionship on his island, for years and years, what could a writer desire more than a story of a woman and many men.
Yes, from an isolated lonely male, to a woman who has many men.
Lets see how many people will go for it. I know I will.
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There are two pairs of characters who are somewhat alike but have opposite fates.
Rosanna and Rachel: Both are intelligent and strong-minded.
Rosanna is plain and deformed, born into wretched circumstances, with no decent road to making her way in the world. She loves Franklin Blake, but can’t even get him to look at her.
Rachel is beautiful, rich, with a loving family. She loves Franklin Blake, and can have him if she chooses.
I wonder how much pity Rachel felt for Rosanna.
Ezra Jennings and Franklin Blake are more alike.
Jennings is an honorable man who has been falsely accused of something, and can’t prove his innocence. He has lost the woman he loves because of this, and his life is blighted.
Blake is honorable and is under suspicion of a crime, which has alienated the woman he loves, but he has the possibility of clearing himself.
I don’t know about the first pair, but I think Collins meant Jennings and Blake to be the opposite sides of the coin. That is why they are so attracted to each other, and sympathetic to each other. Blake sees in Jennings what could happen to him, and Jennings sees a vicarious second chance in Blake.
Why were they attracted to each other before they knew each other’s stories? I’m not sure, though it’s a trick of romantic writers to have instant sympathy between characters who are going to be close. I caught the same homoerotic whiff that Jonathan did, but I have no idea how seriously Collins meant it.
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THat's a really interesting comparison. Rosanna and jennings as the dark possibilities of Rachel and Franklin. I'll bet Collins had that in mind.
We don't know what Rachel thought of Rosanna. She clearly didn't "recognize" her alter ego, as Franklin did.
I caught homo-erotic whiffs, too. but Collins may not have meant them. Cultural differences may have made men more open then in expression of affection for other men, as they did for women.
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hmm not sure what is going on - I hurried up and finished last week since it appeared we were summing up and talking about the entire book and how we liked it and what characters we liked etc. - I felt a bit bereft in that I thought we had not talked about this book as long as we usually do - a month or breaking it into 4 parts - and now I see another whole week is added as if we did not finish up last week - so I am totally confused and have no idea what we are to talk about this week. Please help me out here - wa-happened...?
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We tried to adjust the speed of the discussion to fit how fast people were reading the book. (This isn't always easy, since people read at different speeds and have different amounts of time available for reading.) So we went slowly at first, but then sped up as people got into it and started reading more. So when it looked like a lot of people had either finished or were impatient to finish, we announced a move to the last section early, on the 10th. We couldn't afford to dawdle, since it's a mystery. It was divided into 6 parts--the structure of the book constrained the divisions.
In theory the discussion is over, but we can keep it open as long as anyone has anything to say.
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This was a great discussion. The time has come to leave it, but if anyone has anything more to say, please do.
Now off to look at the short stories.
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I'm adding Robinson Crusoe and Moll Flanders to my June reading... I love lurking on these discussions. :D
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Pamela, I appreciate that even when you're lurking, you come in and say hi. That encourages the discussion leaders.
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"Collins meant Jennings and Blake to be the opposite sides of the coin" PatH
Quite an interesting character analysis, Pat - I think Collins put himself in Franklin Blake's character...but wonder on whom he based the complex character of Ezra Jennings. Perhaps we'll never know of any relationship between Collins and such a man.
What did you think of Collins attempt at a detective mystery? Have you read his eerie Woman in White 1860? - Moonstone 1868 must have been a challenge for him...expecially with an audience expecting the same depth of passion as in Woman in White...
Can't leave this group without thanking our dedicated leaders...Many thanks, JoanK and PatH. As we've noticed, it isn't easy to lead a month long discussion when it's a whodunnit - with everyone reading at a different rate. But you did it!
Moll Flanders? Now that would be an interesting discussion, wouldn't it? Will someone put it in the suggestion box for the future? As JoanK says, the next group discussion will focus on 10 short stories...starting June 1. Hope everyone can join us.
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JoanP, I don't know where Collins got the rest of Jennings' character, but the description of Jennings' opium use--the horrible dreams, the conflict between wanting to ease the pain and wanting to avoid the awful effects, the built-up tolerance for large doses, etc., is supposed to be Collins' description of himself, and medically accurate.
I've read The Woman in White several times, one of them in that fine discussion you led here.
Waafer, you mentioned wanting to read The Woman in White. It's got a mystery too, with the hero doing the detecting, but it's more a suspense story with ghostly overtones. It's got a memorable villain too--the hilariously colorful Count Fosco. As here, it's told through the narratives of the participants. It's even longer than The Moonstone, so be prepared for a long session.
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Oh wow, Pat! That makes Franklin Blake and Ezra Jennings two sides of one coin, that coin being Wilkie Collins himself! I'm just now getting it.
I found the article on Wilkie's EARLY YEARS in France and ITALY- and right off, recognized Franklin Blake...
http://www.wilkie-collins.info/wilkie_collins_biography.htm
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Very interesting, JoanP. I clicked on the memoir of his dad. Good looking guy.
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The more I think of it, the more sense it makes. And this explains the attraction between them: they each see each other as what they might have been.
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Thanks, JoanP, for the link in 450. It does help with the curious mystery suggested by Pat's ideas about the Blake/Jennings relationship. So, we have one mystery solved, only to be left with a greater one.
I found the biographical information about Collins very interesting. It does explain some things about the book. But I can't get over the Collins grave at the bottom of the page. Miss Clack would have been impressed by the monumental cross marking the author's grave. And it leaves another mystery.
Collins, we've been led to believe, was not a religious man, with his 'unorthodox lifestyle', his 'Bohemian lifestyle', 'his enigmatic lifestyle'. Did he experience a deathbed conversion? Like the Earl of Rochester in the time of Charles II? This is worth following up.
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Good heavens, what suffering he must have gone through at the end. He did not die easily.
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Miss Clack would have been impressed by the monumental cross marking the author's grave. And it leaves another mystery.
Collins, we've been led to believe, was not a religious man, with his 'unorthodox lifestyle', his 'Bohemian lifestyle', 'his enigmatic lifestyle'. Did he experience a deathbed conversion? Like the Earl of Rochester in the time of Charles II? This is worth following up.
Deathbed conversion doesn't explain the cross. In his will, written in 1882, seven years before his death, he specifies "there may be placed a plain stone cross". Size isn't specified, but the other crosses in JoanP's link are pretty big too. He also specified the inscription. So you can't tell if he had some religious feeling left or if he knew it would cause too much fuss not to have a cross and was keeping things as simple as possible.
The will is number 16 in the list of links on this site.
http://www.wilkiecollins.com/ (http://www.wilkiecollins.com/)
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Pamela, I appreciate that even when you're lurking, you come in and say hi. That encourages the discussion leaders.
PatH,
I’m not able to add to this discussion but I have learned plenty just by sitting on the sidelines reading the lively exchange. ;) Y’all dig deeply into the author and book... its awesome. ;D
Can't leave this group without thanking our dedicated leaders...Many thanks, JoanK and PatH. As we've noticed, it isn't easy to lead a month long discussion when it's a whodunnit - with everyone reading at a different rate. But you did it!
Moll Flanders? Now that would be an interesting discussion, wouldn't it? Will someone put it in the suggestion box for the future? As JoanK says, the next group discussion will focus on 10 short stories...starting June 1. Hope everyone can join us.
JoanP,
Yes! Kudos to our faithful leaders!!! *applause, applause* :P
I’m looking forward to the short stories and their discussion outcome. ;D
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Pamela: don't sell yourself short; you contribute plenty! Looking forward to seeing you in the next discussion.
It's true, nobody discusses books the way Seniorlearn discusses books. It's spoiled me for other groups.
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Time for me to say "Hi" also and to tell you all I appreciated all you insights and comments and delving much more into Collins' life than I did, and the moderators questions which I am afraid I didn't often answer. It's been very interesting.
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Glad you enjoyed it, and glad you came in to tell us so.