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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/hdghogcvr.jpg) | "Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -
"Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1836659,00.html)
The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence from a world she finds meaningless. The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27
April 4-10 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129 (Topics for April 4) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/weektwohedgehogquestions.html)
April 11-14 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170
April 15-19 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238
April 20-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325
Final Thoughts | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/DavidTroodG460.jpg)
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For Your Consideration
April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble ~ pgs.17-27
1. A concierge who reads Marx! Might one suspect she is contemplating subversion or joining a union? Why is she reading his German Ideology?
2. "Mankind would do better to confine itself to its own needs." Does it appear that Mme. la Concierge is doing just that? Do you understand the title of this chapter: "Whosoever sows desire harvests oppression?"
3. Do you think Renée fits the stereotype of the typical French concierge? How has Muriel Barbery so carefully and clearly described her?
4. How does the tone and the attitude of the second narrator contrast with that of the concierge?
5. Would you say Renée and Paloma are both hedgehogs? What might they each be hiding from, or frightened about behind their protective cover?
6. How do you think the young Paloma has developed this "big thing" about Japan? Did you ever try to write poetry at her age? Are you familiar with the Japanese haiku?
7. Is it so unusual for an adolescent to think about suicide? Do you think Paloma's dream of a " delicate slipping away" jives with her actual plan? How can it possibly achieve social justice?
8. What is an autodidact? Or - "the most recent eructation of the ruling corporate elite." Shall we keep a vocabulary list of unfamiliar words? Which ones have you noted?
Relevant Links:
Online Dictionary (English) (http://www.thefreedictionary.com);
Glossary of posted Definitions (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/glossaryhedgehog.html)
French-English Dictionary (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt);
Hôtels particuliers (http://images.google.ca/images?hl=fr&q=hotels+particuliers+in+paris&btnG=Recherche+d%27images&gbv=2); An Interview with Muriel Barbery (http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/?author_number=1656&Barbery-interview);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Eloise (eloisede@sympatico.ca )
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Welcome! Bienvenue! This promises to be one of the more challenging books we've discussed together. I just know it is going to be rewarding - if not life-changing!
The two narrators are said to mirror one another and yet one is a young 12 year old and the other is a 54 year old widow. For the next few days we will go slowly, getting to know each one - although they will remain nameless throughout the Preamble, did you notice that? Do they have anything in common?
After what seems like such a long wait, we are eager to hear your initial reaction to the introduction, the two narrators, to the writing, the new author's manner of expression - everything!
It's important for you to know from the start, that you are not confined to the Topics for Discussion in your remarks. They are only supplied as possible points for discussion, but we recognize that you will all have different reactions to the book, which is just crammed with so much to talk about!
Allons!
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Bonjour mes amies. Welcome my friends.
We have to read between the lines in this book, every line hides some secret meaning for us to decipher. At first the characters behaviour is shocking, but full of mystery and purpose and we have to continue reading to know the reason why they behave this way.
Social status is well defined while the characters intellect has a hard time trying to stay in the background, invisible to the naked eye while life goes on in their ordinary life. It gives me a thrill to read how the author describes live situations intertwined with characters inner thoughts.
Lets share our own thoughts while we are reading the Preamble and The Miracle of the Arts so we can get a feeling of how we perceive what is going on in the first chapters of Elegance of the Hedgehog.
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Marx, ah, yes. Did you hear that Das Kapital is going to become a musical?
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Suddenly it's on... I didn't bump into Pat in the night...didn't know Kidsal was an antipodean.... and I'm still thinking about autodidact.
I really believe that in some respects we are all autodidacts.
There are areas of life in which we learn either by experience or teach ourselves whatever it may be. I would be especially ignorant today if all I knew was that which had been instilled into me by teachers in a formal situation or by parents and others in the informal.
When my formal education ended there still remained vast areas of knowledge of which I knew nothing and which in the intervening half century and more I have tapped into and learned about on my own. I have taught myself skills - typing, art, crafts, horticulture, etc., parenting too, - or perhaps the children taught me that -and more recently computer skills (though there's still much to be desired there), and through reading (which everyone here loves to do) embarked on a life-long passion for learning. So that albeit in a casual and even haphazard way I have taught myself an appreciation of many subjects - though of course I am master of very few. - I'm sure others here would have had much the same experience.
I failed every attempt to come to terms with philosophy. However in the Preamble I was delighted to come across the reference to Ludwig Feuerbach of whom I knew a little because George Eliot had translated his Essence of Christianity. Eliot's translation has been reprinted in fairly recent times and is still the primary English text used in tertiary courses both here in the antipodes ;) and elsewhere. It is quite amazing that this is so as Eliot translated the work in 1854 - just realising that small fact has given me a better appreciation of just how skilled a linguist Eliot must have been and how broad was her grasp on philosophy, theology etc. Amazing woman. Otherwise I am in the dark about Feuerbach except that he began as a follower or disciple of Hegel and then turned toward other areas.
eructation is a word well known to me - I had an old uncle who used it constantly whenever he belched or broke wind - which was often - 'just my eructation' he would say. I don't use or hear the word in general conversation however on occasions of family reminiscence it still surfaces as we remember our windy old uncle. His war wounds were the cause of his problems and I think he may have learned the word whilst hospitalised. Happily he had many saving graces.
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Addressing one of the questions.. Yes, it is not unusual for teens to dream of suicide. I have read studies that it simply is quite common. The arguement being that it sounds so romantic and sort of " I'll show them" sort of attitude.
I am hoping that as I get further into the book, the whole thing will make more sense. At the moment, the concierge is not at all my type of human and the little girl is being quite typical in her attitude that she comes off better than her parents, etc.
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Jackie, indeed the first word of Elegance is Marx and I said to myself are we were going to read about politics? but it was just one of the tricks of the author to give us a jolt and the whole page does just that doesn't it? Do you think that our narrator is kind to the Pallières boy? After all he is just a teenager who wants to impress someone perhaps because his parents wouldn't agree with him. What do you think?
Ah! Gumtree, there you are, for you April 1st happened much sooner that for us here.. :) "There are areas of life in which we learn either by experience or teach ourselves whatever it may be." I agree totally with you. Imagine being born before the great depression and WW11, that alone taught some of us so many things, then life itself with all the experiences we must go through, whether we want to or not, is a great teacher.
By comparison, Antoine Pallières is learning in school and madame la concierge is an autodidact. Which is better I am asking myself now.
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I should have reread the first of this book yesterday because I don't remember much of it. However I do remember that the first page sent me to a dictionary several times.
I will try to find time sometime today to reveiw the section that we are discussing. I will wait on my comments until I do this.
Joan Grimes
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Alas, I still do not have a copy of the book. My daughter Sally is on the waiting list at her branch county library. She informed me that the library had 9 copies and I was 8th on the waiting list, so hopefully a will have one soon.
Meanwhile, I'll simply read your posts and get an idea of what's happening.
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I am bemused by the picture drawn of the typical French concierge as being :
... it is written somewhere that concierges are old, ugly and sour ... (with) large dithering cats who sleep all day on cushions covered with crocheted covers...and again concierges watch television interminably while their rather large cats doze... the entrance to the building must smell of pot-au-feu, cabbage soup or a country-style cassoulet
Those of you who frequently travel to France must enlighten me as to whether this really is an accurate description of the real-life concierges, you have met - their age (old), their demeanour (ugly & sour), their pastimes, (TV and crocheting), their pets (fat cats), and their culinary expertise (cabbage soup etc). Are these the qualities required for obtaining the post of concierge? Or is the description something of a send-up ?
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Ah, the day is here! I’m so happy that we’ll be discussing the Hedgehog! I read it last fall and, not worrying about the parts that I found mystifying, enjoyed the book tremendously. I gave it to my granddaughter in Toronto who had majored in Philosophy at the U of T - she loved it but even she found some references baffling. Those come up later in the book.
I took a course in philosophy back in university days more than 60 years ago so that’s little help - I mostly remember the big names and not much about their theories.
The concierge mentions the eleventh thesis on Feuerbach. I found Marx’s “Theses on Feuerbach” on the net and printed it out. Most of it I found obscure but the 11th does make sense! It states: “ Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it.” At least there we can imagine what he’s talking about.
And whether or not we understand these philosophical references, we can find much else to relate to and take pleasure in. I love the concierge! One thing, a major thing, that I have learned in this long life is that almost every person has something interesting about him.
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Gumtree- I love the story of your grand old uncle.
The "prosperous heir" cretin Antoine Pallieres is an "eructation" of the ruling elite. ::)
Does that mean that his breed is full of hot air and wind, no matter which way it "comes out?"
It is no wonder that our conceirge slammed the door in the kid's face.
Eloise mentioned that the first word is MARX in our story and she automatically thought politics and I automatically thought "class struggle."
This beginning cracked me up right from the onset, (hardly Marxist) particularly the statement that a conierge who reads Marx must be contemplating subversion, sold her soul to the devil or the trade union. Now that is funny! It sounds so sinister and treasonous -as if her reading such literature could result in sabotage and the overthrow of the grand(ious) hierarchy, the pedigree folks. I don't quite understand the alliance with the trade union though. Is that in reference to the Marxist theory that socio-economic change occurrs through organized and revolutionary action?
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Do you think the concierge over-reacted? I mean, what did the kid do, but ask try to make conversation? She finds him physically repulsive- is it the fact that he is one of the wealthy tenants? ... Would she have acted this way towards the elder tenants in the building? She comes close to shutting the door in his face.
Steph - stop looking for hidden meaning. Read it for the story. I'm sure that many who have read and enjoyed the book did so without any knowledge of philosophy or laboring over hidden meanings. I'll admit it is a bit rough-sledding in the next section, "Camellias" - but you have great resources right here. If you are puzzling over something, just ask here - it appears that we have some who are up on their philosophies - (had you ever heard of Feuerbach?) (Notice that there is a link to next week's questions - next to the dates - see if having the questions help as you read.)
Speaking of Feuerbach - on the first page -
"To understand Marx and to understand why he is mistaken, one must read the German Ideology."
Who does "he" refer to - Who is mistaken? The Pallières boy? JoanR...can you help? Thank you for bringing us the 11th Thesis on Feuerbach
"Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it."
Is she saying that the Pallières boy is mistaken because there is no way Marx could change the way a monied child views the world - he can't change/won't change it because he is rich?
To me, the opening lines said more than politics and class, but about condescending when talking to the adolescent who was trying to make conversation. I don't like to see adults talk to kids like that. I'm not liking her much at this point.
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I am enjoying the book. Much of it is funny. Some is a bit sad. Both narrators are interesting and hold my attention. They are alike in that they are both trying to keep up appearances that hide their intelligence.
I did not know the meaning of seppuku, and found out from my dictionary that it is Japanese ritual suicide by disembowelment.
I found myself confused by Paloma’s references to the goldfish bowl.
“Despite all that, despite all this good fortune and all this wealth, I have known for a very long time that the final destination is the goldfish bowl.” (pg. 23)
“But one thing is sure --- there’s no way I’m going to end up in the goldfish bowl.” (pg. 24)
“Those Africans have the goldfish bowl right there in front of them, all day long --- they can’t escape through storytelling.” (pg. 27)
Being in a fish bowl means that everyone can see your every move and you are observed and commented on by people. That doesn’t seem to be the meaning here, but I’m not sure. Does anyone have any thoughts?
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Well I must go back and re read however I am with JoanP
To me, the opening lines said more than politics and class, but about condescending when talking to the adolescent who was trying to make conversation. I don't like to see adults talk to kids like that. I'm not liking her much at this point.
I did read further on and was less annoyed so we shall see....
My stay in Paris was in a well run small hotel a few blocks from the Champs .I did stay in a B&B in London and the owner seemed to be glad to have us but still was sort of condescning to us "Americans " I have no idea if she was that way with others We were there in 1953 and there was still a lot of damage everywhere in England and France etc ..I think many were just getting back on their feet ...Now this evening I will review what I read and try to make comments what I am reading and what the book and everyone here is saying...
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I am curious as to how this book will continue. The Concierge seems a real 'Autodidact' as does the young girl. Perhaps that is what they have in common.
Going over the posted questions , I zeroed in on part two of question two.-What is the meaning of ,'Whoever sows desire harvests oppression'.
Is this the opposite of what is usually taught-'You shall reap what you have sown'?
I gave it some more thought and came up with this explanation with which you may or may not agree.
Sowing desire makes slaves of those who run after things like sex, money,Alcohol, Drugs etc. because the person becomes enslaved to their overwhelming desire which turns into a constant need for more of the same and thus because he is enslaved to a passion he becomes oppressed i.e. slaves are oppressed beings.
On another topic -when I was visiting Paris in the 1950'ss I became very ill . The concierge in the place I was staying physically looked like the person described in the book. I was too ill to asses her character but the whole idea of a concierge in charge of a group of flats (apartments) came back as an almost forgotten memory in reading the first few pages of the book.
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I am bemused by the picture drawn of the typical French concierge as being :
Those of you who frequently travel to France must enlighten me as to whether this really is an accurate description of the real-life concierges, you have met - their age (old), their demeanour (ugly & sour), their pastimes, (TV and crocheting), their pets (fat cats), and their culinary expertise (cabbage soup etc). Are these the qualities required for obtaining the post of concierge? Or is the description something of a send-up ?
I don't think it is a job requirement but I think that the author well describes what in general a concierge would be like. Does it seem far fetched to you? I have seen one two in Paris and it is not far from what is described here. We can't generalize though. I have read that it is a job that is fast disappearing in France because their "loge" and salery are being used more efficiently.
I did stay in a B&B in London and the owner seemed to be glad to have us but still was sort of condescning to us "Americans " I have no idea if she was that way with others
Anna, I don't know if they are condescending to Americans only, but most of the time, they keep their distance with anyone they don't know, I found when I was in Europe. My sister married a Frenchman and lived in Paris 8 years, at first she was very lonely, but in the end she got used to their ways and finally she liked it.
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For a minute there, I thought you were going to say that the concierge cared for you when you were sick, Jude. I don't ever remember a sympathetic or a nurturing concierge. It was years ago, as a single woman, that I was aware of les concierges who were nosier, always watching me. I don't remember them in the places I've stayed with my husband. They were always there at the door whenever I came in and out. They did keep their distance though, as Anna describes. I don't remember that they were nasty - I was probably the abrupt, nasty one!
Gum, we have to wait for someone who actually lived in a building with a concierge...but I believe that our Renee is going to extremes so that no one suspects she is unlike the expected stereotype.
I've been thinking about the way she regarded the Pallieres boy with such disdain, such condescension. Doesn't it make you wonder why she resents him so? It's the money, don't you think?
Why is the concierge reading Marx, do we know yet ?
Jude, thanks for tackling the tough question - (somebody had to do it! ;)')
"Whoever sows desire harvests oppression."
I'm trying to apply your explanation to the autodidact...
"Sowing desire makes slaves of those who run after things like sex, money,Alcohol, Drugs (and EDUCATION?) because the person becomes enslaved to their overwhelming desire which turns into a constant need for more of the same and thus because he is enslaved to a passion"
Seriously, what is the point being made in this context? Is Marx advocating the renunciation of luxuries, as they will lead the seeker to the oppressive need for more?
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Laura - they say to use a word three times, it's yours. I don't know how I'm going to work "seppuku" into conversation! Traudee suggested a glossary...it's one of the new links in the header - a work in progress. Also, the link to the English dictionary that MarjV brought to us - that's up there too. I have a feeling our vocabulary is going to increase this month! I need to apologize - I know kidsal is not an antipode...though there are some here on the East Coast who regard Wyoming as the end of the earth. My mind crossed the other K poster from New Zealand.
Das Kapital, the musical, Jackie? Will have to see that! (I read in one of M.Barbery's interviews that there will be a film adaptation of Hedgehog. I wonder how the book will "translate" to film, don't you?)
Babi - here's hoping that you get your book - by Saturday. I think if you read along until then, you'll have a good idea of both of the narrators and the climate here at #7 rue de Grenelle.
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Oh my gosh, just this instant I lost my entire post with answers to your questions!
Mercy! I am sorry.
I can't start over again now because I have a monstrous headache. Yesterday afternoon after the meeting of our local book group I fell and spent a few hours in the ER. They discharged me at 7 p.m. and gave me 4 pages of instructions, inter alia they told me I shouldn't be alone for 48 hours. It's been only a few more than 24.
So à demain.
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As some time has passed since I read The Elegance I have just commenced to read it again and as usual when I reread a book I find places I have completely forgotten about. I think the clumsiest word I have ever encountered is 'incunabulum' and amongst the meanings 'a single sheet of printed material' or 'a collection of stories' - wonder where the boy learnt that word. Am sure he did not think that Madam Michel would know what it meant.
My visit to Paris was in 1980 but I do not remember a concierge at our Hotel. What I will never forget was that there were many people on strike who worked at places that tourists visit- Versaille and The Louvre were .Sad. I do enjoy reading all the comments about this book and will follow it hereon. Wonder what the film will belike. WAAFER
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Fortunately for me, I found a great deal to discover and comment on just from the excellent posts.
Not cabbage soup, please! I wouldn't mind the aroma of a good cassoulet greeting me in the hall. I once had a recipe for one of lamb and white beans (I used navy),
and it was delicious.
“ Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways;
the point is to change it.”
True, but then, that is not the job of the
philosopher. The philosopher's role is to make us think! Preferably, before
we act. :-\
"the devil or the trade union". Surely that is a satirical association of trade unions with the devil. An attitude that fits right in with supposing that anyone who reads Marx must be a subversive. I've known people who think like that.
Aw, JOAN, if we don't try to grasp the subtler meanings, we will probably miss
most of the humor. Of course I wouldn't want to work it to death, but I hope
we can find a satisfactory balance.
"To understand Marx and to understand why he is mistaken.." Doesn't that 'he' refer to Marx himself? That is the way I read it.
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Welcome Waafer, I am glad you found us. We look forward to further posts from you.
I love cassoulet the way my sister cooks it Babi . I must ask her for her recipe.
Today it's so nice out, I'm going out to enjoy the sunshine.
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Ah, Traudee, I hate when that happens! Don't you wonder where those posts go when they disappear? I always think they must be lurking somewhere - and if I only knew where, I could retrieve them. I feel especially badly for you because of your headache and your fall. I hope you are feeling better morning!
Babi - I do believe that you can get a good idea of these opening chapters from the wonderful posts so far. We are moving at a snail's pace these first three days to take a good introduction to the two narrators - and also a feel for the author's style.
The "Camellias" chapters scheduled for next week are so jam-packed with points for discussion, I'm not sure how we'll do it all. We might have to slow down the discussion if it turns out to be too much. Please holler if you need more time! Oh, and notice that the questions for next week are in the heading behind the link for April 4.
I really hope you get your book, Babi! I agree with you - and fully intend to go for the subtler meanings or we will indeed miss the humor. I think I said that to someone who was feeling overwhelmed...
To understand Marx and to understand why he is mistaken
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I still consider Marx a possibility for the "he" who is mistaken...but can't figure out exactly why the concierge thinks he is...anyone?
Waafer, happy to hear from you. I too wonder what a film adaptation of the book would be like. Who would play Madame Michel? She's "short, ugly and plump." Any candidates?
You mention strikes...I too remember strikes in Paris - and London. In London it was always the subways and buses that went out - making it really difficult to get around. Maybe if it were discovered that the concierge has been reading Marx, she would be considered a troublemaker that would disturb her highly important clientele...
Gee, she might even lose her job!
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There's an English dictionary in the links in the header, did I tell you that? And a glossary - in which we'll add the words that you have looked up.
Gum, I've been thinking about what you had to say yesterday about autodidacts - "in some respects, we are all autodidacts" I agree with you! Unless we had a really outstanding education, some of us have had to work harder at it, I think. I had been wondering to what extent our concierge was self-taught. She tells us, by way of introduction - "I did, not go to college." It seemed important to make that clear to us. Shall we assume she has been to high school, then? At what point did she become an "autodidact"? Already, we are thinking of the precocious 12 year old as one?
Laura asked an interesting question about the goldfish bowl referred to in the child's journal "Profound Thought No.1. We need to talk about this journal - and why the jounalist fears the goldfish bowl.
Being in a fish bowl means that everyone can see your every move and you are observed and commented on by people. That doesn’t seem to be the meaning here, but I’m not sure. Does anyone have any thoughts?
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Regarding the question: What is the meaning of, 'Whoever sows desire harvests oppression'.
I agree with Jude’s answer. However, I took it more along the lines of Marx’s philosophy (which I had to look up on Wikipedia):
Marx argued that capitalism, like previous socioeconomic systems, will produce internal tensions which will lead to its destruction. Just as capitalism replaced feudalism, socialism will in its turn replace capitalism and lead to a stateless, classless society which will emerge after a transitional period.
This would lead one to conclude that capitalism creates desires and the fulfillment of desires lead to class distinctions based on how many desires can be fulfilled by each individual. The resulting class distinctions would then lead to tension between the classes and cause society’s destruction, creating oppression.
I don’t believe a word of that, but I think that is what the quote means.
I think Renee is reading Marx to expand her mind.
Babi said, "To understand Marx and to understand why he is mistaken.." Doesn't that 'he' refer to Marx himself? That is the way I read it.
I agree.
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I have to go back and re-read the pages before I can comment. But I agree Renee seemed to be unnecessarily unpleasant to the boy.
Comments on Paloma later.
Evelyn
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Well Joan I think that the answer to your question is that in a fish bowl there is no way to camouflage oneself.
Renee describes herself as short, ugly, plump and insignificant. Even her cat, Leo, has no distinguishing features. Look how she wishes to hide and camouflage her entire existence. Everything is hidden, even the food that she purchases at the butcher is surreptitiously snuck into the building. She goes as far to "perpetuate" this charade by utilizing a spy hole hidden behind net curtains- curtains to filter out people! A camouflage, a cloak!!
Those are my thoughts.
Being in a fish bowl means that everyone can see your every move and you are observed and commented on by people. That doesn't seem to be the meaning here, but I'm not sure. Does anyone have any thoughts?
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In this day and age why would anyone read Marx? Seems extremely perverse to me.
There are so many great philosophers that expand the mind and are relevant to everyones life-even a plump concierge.
The author is sending us a message. I thought of three possibilities:
1) the Concierge is so bright she can read Marx and UNDERSTAND him.(Marx is notably hard to read.)
2)She is reading Marx to discover how to revolt or if she wishes to revolt.(Against whom?)
3)She had a lover who was influenced by Marxist theory and she wants to prove HIM (the ex) was wrong.
These theories are of course based on my limited information having read just the first few pages. I can't begin to imagine how many more theories will emerge as we plunge further into the story.
As to the actual concierge whom I met in Paris the thing I remember most was the fact that she was always wiping her wet, red hands on a fairly dirty apron. The apron changed from day to day but it was never a clean one. The Doctor gave her instructions because neither she nor the Doctor could give credence to the fact that there was a young man in my room who thankfully understood French and was really only a friend who had volunteered to care for me during this time.
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Hi, everyone. I finally got my book, and will be with you whenever I can spare time from Abraham Lincoln. I have all sorts of reactions, but for the moment I'll plug in my take on the fishbowl. I think it's not so much that you are observed, it's that you're trapped. You are swimming along as though you were going somewhere, but actually you're just going in circles, and you can't get out of the bowl, and it's all rather pointless, but you may not even realize that because it looks to you like you're doing something.
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Hi. I've read ahead in the book, but somehow forgot to join the discussion. So I've been skimming the posts -- hope I can remember all my comment.
The philosophers she talks about are all the ones we read in graduate school. I don't think any of the graduate students understood phenominology -- I certainly didn't -- so if our concierge does, more power to her.
My first reaction was to the sentance (don't have it in front of me --paraphrased) Marx's language is noble etc. etc.. She must have read a frenvh translation. Marx's language is a mess. The only reason anyone can ead Capital is that Engels cleaned the language up.
"'Whoever sows desire harvests oppression". I don't remember Marx ever saying anything like that, but what do I know. That is the essence of Buddism -- that all the miseries of the world are caused by desire. It makes us slaves to obtaining the thing we desire.
I think Marx was more concerned that people didn't have enough to eat.
Interesting ideas about the goldfish bowl. I looked at it completely differently. I saw the goldfish swimming around and around with no place to go and nothing meaningful to do.
"Go to the devil or to the unions". Reminds me of that old song:
"You can't get to heaven
In your underwear.
Cause the Lord don't allow
No unions there".
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First to the new questions.
1. The Preamble is Barbery's Opening Salvo and clearly puts the reader on notice that despite her mousy appearance, the concierge is an intellectual, albeit self-taught. In the first two pages she demonstrates her knowledge about socialism, Marx, the Theses of Feuerbach and The German Ideology. Here is also the first indication of how important Class is. Next we will learn all about Art - and there's more to come.
I found Renée's private thoughts on young Antoine extremely unkind, actually hateful and definitely off-putting. Why does she refer to him as "little CRETIN "? What is wrong with "his conifer green duffle coat"? Does she resent him and "his repulsive and embryonic whiskers" because until that day he had said "nary a word" to her? Or merely because he is a "rich boy" and son of an important father?
2. When I read the book the first time, I did not pause to wonder about the meaning of the chapter's title
but pushed on instead.
3. Whatever a stereotypical French concierge is or may be, Renée goes out of her way to tell the reader that she is anything BUT. ::)
4. Both narrators explain themselves in great detail. At this point we haven't seen them INTERACT yet, but their private thoughts seem to be based on the same feelings of alienation from the world they live in.
5. Both surround themselves with an "armor", and in that sense they are both hedgehogs. It is too early to pinpoint exactly what they are hiding from.
6. Paloma has taken up Japanese as a second foreign language (the first is probably English) and feels an affinity to the language. She longs to read the comics (different alphabet).
7. She tells the readers (a mite too often) that she is much more intelligent and clearly much farther ahead in knowledge than her classmates but hides it from them - just like the concierge, who hides her intelligence from everybody around her. We need to read more Profound Thoughts.
8. As a respondent already said, "eructation" means belching.
This phrase in the sentence might become clearer if a few words were changed, as follows and "eructation" avoided (the italics are mine)
There he (Antoine Pallières) stood, the most recent sprout coughed up by the ruling corporate elite -
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The book finally arrived yesterday. I am an antipodean?? Does that mean I am 180 degrees from the norm?? ;D or that I sleep all day and study/read at all night?? ;D ::) Definitely an autodidact!
Am a fan of Haiku.
Live in simple faith
Just as this
trusting cherry
flowers, fades, and falls.
Issa
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Traude Good to see you back with us - hope you have no after effects from your fall.
Eructation : As you suggest the use of - a sprout coughed up or similar phrase would have obviated using eructationwhich I believe is not in common use. I'm wondering if this is the work of the translator or did Barbary use the French equivalent of 'eructation' (whatever that may be).
I'm fairly familiar with the Haiku though it is not my favoured form of poetry. I find that when used by classic poets, the meaning is often a trifle too subtle and when used by not so skilled poets it is a trifle too obvious. For me there seems to be no happy medium.
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Good morning!
It is good to see so many of you posting this morning...such a treat to print out your posts to read with my morning coffee!
kidsal, please forgive me for calling you an antipode! I confused you with another "K" lady from New Zealand.
PatH, your book has arrived - happy to hear that - and that JoanK remembered we had started the discussion on Wednesday. Traudee has recovered and is back with us - Thngs are looking up. Now we wait for Babi and Jackie's library books to come up and we'll be in good shape to tackle the Camellia's chapters tomorrow. This will take our full compliment to do justice - and to get the most out of them in the time allowed. Remember to holler during the week if you need more time - we can extend a few days if you think you need it. These chapters are the longest in the book.
I'm going to go digest last night's posts now - I find Jude's multiple choice question why the concierge is reading Marx fascinating (so far have eliminated a boyfriend ;D) - and your fish bowl comments thought-provoking.
By the way, are you a coffee drinker in the am?
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Gum, do you find the simple verse that kidsal quoted, seemingly simple, yet full of meaning, a happy medium? I thought it was wonderful.
Traudee mentioned that she didn't pay attention to the chapter titles the first time she read the book. Do you notice that when the young girl wrote in her journal of profound thoughts, she begins with a verse - haiku, right? Will someone define "haiku" for us?
Follow the stars
In the goldfish bowl
An end
How did you "translate" the verse she wrote at the start of her journal?
You wrote some interesting explanations as to why the girl fears the goldfish bowl - Andy, no place to hide, JoanK, nothing meaningful to do, no place to go, PatH, swimming in circles and you can't get out.
Steph writes that studies show it is not that unusual for a young person think of suicide. I'm wondering if it is unusual to plan so far in advance - June 16 is months away. If she's serious, desperate, why would she put it off if life is so meaningless - pointless, with nothing to look forward to?
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LAURA, I think you are correct about the Marxist philosophy explaining the quote on desire=oppression.
I need to read the book to understand the refrence to Marx being
mistaken because he didn't understand German philosophy...or was it psychology. It is certainly true that communism had no success in Germany. They were Fascist and inimical to Communism.
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JoanP
Haiku is a special form of poetry which consists of a set number of what is called "metrical phrases" of 5, 7, and 5 morae.
Morae is the plural of mora, which means syllable in Japanese. Haiku typically contains a kigo, i.e. a reference to a season of the year. Japanese haiku is printed in a single vertical line.
In English three LINES are given, as we see on pg. 26. The apparent object is to formulate a thought on a season with the greatest verbal economy possible within the dictates of the style.
Paloma seems to have mastered the complicated alphabet but thinks the teacher is not doing good enough a job, she tells us regarding the pronunciation. Maman, an educaged woman with a PhD, is frustrated that Paloma, of such obvious intelligence, is concerned with a "trifle" such as manga, which is the general term for "comic" that Paloma has given her.
Renée Michel has been reading for years -- in no special order, everything and anything she came across, without a set path, design, even less a goal, guided simply by her own interests and gradually developed preferences. . That's what an autodidact does. S ocialism, communism, Marx (and presumably Engels, too) are just the FIRST example the author mentions. There is plenty of social criticism cloaked in satire, and we need to take that into account rather than take every word literally.
The book does not have a plot in the conventional sense and, so far, little action. The reader is getting to know the characters. What Renée says on page 20 "I have the extraordinary good fortune to be the concierge of a very high-class sort of building." is sheer irony bordering on sarcasm. The hedgehog is showing its distinctly unfriendly side.
Marx was the beginning. Now Art is being mentioned. First literature = "Death in Venice" (a novella by Thomas Mann), then Music the composer Gustav Mahler (page 21).
Paloma also is thinking in terms of literature, namely Marcel Proust's multi-volume magnum opus "Remembrance of Things Past", which his brother completed after Marcel's death.
Gum, hello and thank you.
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A quick follow-up to my last post.
Polama's literary references are in the second paragraph on pg. 23.
(1) "... trying to act like Madame Guermantes ..."
Madame Guermantes is a character in volume 3 of Remembrance of Things Past a k a In Search of Lost time by Marcel Proust.
(2) Maman to Paloma: "Pumpkin, you are a regular Sanseverina".
The reference is to a character in La Chartreuse de Parme= The Charterhouse of Parma by Stendhal (author of The Red and the Black).
The parallelism in the thinking of our two hedgehogs may be fun to track. I believe that at this point Paloma - despite her expressed wish to kill herself by her 13th birthday - is much easier to take than the grim, embittered Renée who seems haunted by a monumental inferiority complex. (Just MHO.)
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I'm wondering which of the two is happier, Traudee. I'm thinking it's the concierge, who has her literature, her Mahler...her privacy! She's using her mind to make her situation bearable, isn't she?
I just read that haiku verse of hers again...and the context - It becomes clearer on the rereading I think. "People aim for the stars, and they end up like goldfish in a bowl."
And she doesn't want to live through this experience. Sad, for a such a young girl. She needs some friends...or a mentor. Not her maman, though. What makes her so cynical? Maman is no genius, she says. Just a PHD in literature, that's all. Does she mean that Maman knows nothing about real life? Do you see a similarity between Maman and the concierge?
Here's another take on haiku - pretty much what you said, Traudee, but expanded a bit more -
Haiku is a poetic form and a type of poetry from the Japanese culture. Haiku combines form, content, and language in a meaningful, yet compact form. Haiku poets, which you will soon be, write about everyday things. Many themes include nature, feelings, or experiences. Usually they use simple words and grammar. The most common form for Haiku is three short lines. The first line usually contains five (5) syllables, the second line seven (7) syllables, and the third line contains five (5) syllables. Haiku doesn't rhyme. A Haiku must "paint" a mental image in the reader's mind. This is the challenge of Haiku - to put the poem's meaning and imagery in the reader's mind in ONLY 17 syllables over just three (3) lines of poetry!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/hdghogcvr.jpg) | "Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -
"Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1836659,00.html)
The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence from a world she finds meaningless. The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27
April 4-10 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129
April 11-14 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170 ~ (Topics for April 11-14) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/weekthreehedgehogquestions.html)
April 15-19 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238
April 20-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325
Final Thoughts | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/DavidTroodG460.jpg)
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For Your Consideration
April 4-10 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129
1. Do the cited instances of class prejudices have less of an impact on those of us who do not live in classed-based societies, or is this a universal tendency? Is it only the rich who look down on the poor? How do the have-nots regard the rich in these pages?
2. Do you agree with Mme. Michel's definition of an "aristocrat"? Do any of the tenants at 7, Rue de Grenelle fit this description?
3. Is Paloma's cynicism and her constant criticism of her family normal for a twelve year old girl? Why is she keeping two separate notebooks? Do you think she is seriously considering suicide or just the idea of the effect it would have on others?
4. Do the philosophical musings help you to understand Renée Michel, the way she thinks, learns and arrives at conclusions - or do they get in the way? How have Kant's views of what we can know of the world, influenced Renée in her pursuit of education?
5. Contrast Paloma and Renée's early educational experience. Does Paloma seem to be into books the same way that Renée was at her age?
6. Is it fair to say that Renée learns from books while Paloma from her observation of others? How do Renée's reading habits compare to your own?
7. It has been said that Paloma and the concierge mirror one another in the conclusions they reach on the meaning of life - and death. From their journal entries, can you cite any specific similarities in thinking?
8. Is Paloma asocial, a "loner"? Does she turn to anyone for companionship or guidance? How does she compare to Mme. Michel, holed up in the back room of her loge?
9. How did you react to Paloma's visit to her grandmaman in the nursing home? Were you appalled, or did you find yourself agreeing with her observations?
10. Do you detect a slight shift in your own attitudes towards life or death - or somewhere in between? Are you contemplating any life changes, even small ones? Do you still drink that "nasty" coffee, par example?
Relevant Links:
Glossary of posted Definitions (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/glossaryhedgehog.html)
French-English Dictionary (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt);
Hôtels particuliers (http://images.google.ca/images?hl=fr&q=hotels+particuliers+in+paris&btnG=Recherche+d%27images&gbv=2); An Interview with Muriel Barbery (http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/?author_number=1656&Barbery-interview);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Eloise (eloisede@sympatico.ca )
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KIDSAL: I love haiku too, especially Japanese haiku (including Issa, of course. I needed to repeat one of his haiku this morning:
The snail
gets up and goes to bed
with very little fuss).
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Did any of you ask why the concierge felt she needed to hide who she was and act out the stereotype? What does she fear will happen if she acts herself?
I'm not asking the same question about the teenager, since teenagers can be secretive.
Have any of you ever felt you had to do that? When I was young, we were told not to let boys know we were bright, especially if we were brighter than them, or we would be "old maids".
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JoanP
The Haiku Paloma quotes is by Basho and a favorite of hers. Google has wonderful information and examples, even a Haiku Challenge. Japanese Haiku is read from the top down in individual "symbols" for wont of a better word, like the hieroglypics on the personalized cartouches visitors bring back from Egpyt.
I'm afraid Madame Josse, Paloma's and Colombe's mother, would ever even shake hands with a mere (!) concierge.
JoanK I believe that it is not only an interesting but a crucial question to ask : why does the concierge go to those extraordinary lengths not to "give herself away"?
Take the net shopping bag.
They were the tool to carry home groceries in Europe a half century ago or longer, and they still are. Made of wide, open netting crocheted from strong material like hemp. When empty, they fit into a coat pocket and expand according to need and one's capacity to carry what's inside.
For appearance's sake Renée carefully slips calf's liver for Leo the cat between the carrots and noodles or carrots, "obligingly flaunting ONLY a pauper's victuals" (page 20). Could it that she is afraid of losing her job after twenty-seven years if someone finds out she knows about classical music, for example?
Let's also look at the names as we read on. Leo is the name of René's cat. Paloma is Spanish for dove. Her sister's name is Colombe, which is French for dove (!!) Tibère (Tiberius) is Colombe's boyfriend. There's no need to wonder about him, though. He's a teenager and NOT imperial. :D :D
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I find it hard to believe that Paloma is almost ready to read Japanese books after less than a year. It's much harder to learn written Japanese than spoken, because you have to memorize the individual kanji. My daughter, after 5 college semesters of Japanese, could speak it well, but could only read at a fairly elementary level.
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Yes, after five years of Japanese, your daugher was merely "educated, Pat H." Paloma was a genius, don't forget! ;)
Like maman with her PHD in literature...not a genius, merely educated.
Early wake-up call in the morning...but couldn't resist pasting this in ...have been saving it. Maman was into Art and Literature - when it came to naming her pets and girls:
(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:oYPTuXVuJV4jCM:http://www.geocities.com/)
"La Colombe" ~~ Picasso
Paloma - name means Dove - as Traudee pointed out. Picasso named his daughter Paloma
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Just a little trivia...When Renee is watching the DVD of the film Death in Venice and hasthe strains of Mahler wafting from her lodge -the Mahler reference is to the adagietto from his 5th symphony known as Death in Venice which was used in the film. Thomas Mann was initially inspired to write Death in Venice when he saw Mahler break down into tears on a train which was about to leave Venice.
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Strains of Gustav Mahler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Yyaqqd9gg) (Can you hear it?)
Gum, I can just picture our concierge, sitting alone in her darkened loge, watching Death in Venice, Strains of Gustav Mahler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Yyaqqd9gg) filling the little room, tears coming down her cheeks. She is a romantic, isn't she?
I wouldn't call her an unhappy woman. It's just too bad that she has to go to such pains to really be herself. She's playing the movie on her DVD in the back, while the TV in the front room is blaring, just so the tenants who pass will think she is the dull person she wants them to believe she is - sprawled on her couch, snoozing perhaps, with cat Leo at her side - doing the same.
Are we ready for Camellias? I think we have spent time well, getting to know these two residents of 7, rue de Grenelle. There are quite a few pages in this section, many need to be read quite slowly to grasp the subtle nuances. Really though, I think, I hope, you will find them as rewarding as I did. I think the discussion this coming week will help very much, as we have assembled quite a group of varied interests, talents...and imagination!
Please continue to bring vocabulary words for our glossary. Also, this week, will you note some of your favortie metaphors, similes. They really are wonderful! And Paloma's haiku! Don't skip over them, they begin every "profound thought." Shall we start a list of her Profound Thoughts?
This should be quite a busy week! Happy reading!
ps. Thanks for the Death in Venice connection, Gum. I'm thinking of you as I listen to the Mahler's Fifth...
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Thank you everyone for your thoughts on the goldfish bowl. Great insights!
I still have 30 pages left to read in this section. Some parts go very fast and some parts more slowly.
Back soon...
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Ah! Such interesting posts. And you have covered so much ground that I can hardly keep up.
Thanks for posting the dove by Picasso Joan, it is very lovely.
So Paloma is going to set fire to her apartment, but says: “Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a criminal” Excuse me? Then she goes on to say she is going to “evacuate” the cats through the window. I like the word evacuate here, it really avoids the question whether the cats would jump off the window sill and if they live in an upstairs apartment what then? Can we understand such thoughts from a suicidal pre teen? I feel that she is ready for anything to get out of her present situation with her family who live in a gold fish bowl. These thoughts can be a serious warning to her family, if they know or care about what goes on inside her little head. Oh! I feel sad for her. And then to top it all she is “wondering if they will give some thought to all those dead Africans” I wonder too if I go by what she says about her parents. For now the coast is clear for them, they have a great life.
Gumtree, how sad this is “he saw Mahler break down into tears on a train which was about to leave Venice.” Venice the beautiful.
Traude, ah yes in Europe they still use the net shopping bags, but I wonder why Renée cares so much who sees what she bought.
JoanK, What does she fear will happen if she acts herself? I am wondering what you think she fears if she let the cat out of the bag about her vast knowledge to the tenants. Are you wondering why if she has been there for 23 years that not once did she have normal conversation with any of them? She was there even before the kids were born. What are you thoughts on that?
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Yes, Paloma's suicide plans aren't very well thought out. She's going to evacuate her apartment, but what about the others? If the fire spreads more quickly than she thinks, other people could get hurt. Or the opposite could happen, and the fire just go out. And I don't know a lot about sleeping pills, but I'm guessing that 12 wouldn't be a lethal dose, and she probably underestimates how long it would take to knock her out. And there would be no particular reason for her parents to think about the dead Africans unless she had confided in them.
So, not a practical plan, but probably very satisfying to think about.
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Strains of Gustav Mahler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Yyaqqd9gg)
Gum, I can just picture our concierge, sitting alone in her darkened loge, watching Death in Venice, Strains of Gustav Mahler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Yyaqqd9gg) filling the little room, tears coming down her cheeks. She is a romantic, isn't she?
Yes, of course Renee is a romantic - remember how she finished the Mahler/Venice paragraph:
I was in the back room, perfectly euphoric, my eyes filling with tears, in the miraculous presence of Art
At this stage Renee interests me far more than Paloma - she hides her knowledge, intelligence etc behind her prickly facade. The big question is why? Perhaps she feels that her hard won learning won't measure up to that of those who are more formally educated and that if she allows others to really know her she will be shamed in some way. Just imagine the conversation she could have with Paloma's mother who has the Lit. PhD. I'm guessing the Mother would really learn something worthwhile from Renee's take on her reading.
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I just finished this section of reading. I have two initial reactions. First, I am surprised that Renee and Paloma have not yet interacted. Second, I do see a basis upon which they could build a friendship; both are interested in Japan and Paloma doesn’t want to forget old people.
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PatH - Paloma's suicide plans are sketchy when it comes to the details...except she's filching one of maman's sleeping pills every day in preparation for June 16. This seems to be evidence that suicide is more than just a dream, doesn't it? Oh, and did you notice that she plans to set the place on fire - and then go off to grandmother's house to swallow the pills! Poor, poor grandmother!
Eloise - "she is ready for anything to get out of her present situation with her family who live in a gold fish bowl."
I look closely at her family each time Paloma complains about them - and really don't see them as abusive, or disinterested in her - in any way at all. So what is it in her situation that is so unbearable? Really - fear of the goldfish bowl? Fear of what the future holds?
Laura, Paloma and the concierge haven't met in the Camellias chapters - but they must be familiar with one another, living in the same building for twelve years. What do you think the author accomplishes with the two narrators?
Does anyone have information about the camellia? Does it bloom one day and die the next? Or? I'm trying to understand if its bloom is - ephemeral.
Gum, it is the concierge who has my interest too. I can relate to her - her situation is real, she has lived life and is not dreading the future. Her future is now. Though I agree, the puzzle remains, as to why she goes to such extremes to conceal who she really is. Is it simply because she fears losing her position as others have suggested? Do the tenants in the building really make fun of her - or is she just super-sensitive? (Can you compare her to Paloma in this?) Did you see the aristocratic M. Arthens condescending in his remarks to her...or?
I cannot wait to hear your impressions after having read Camellias!
Have a sunny Sunday, everyone! It's spring!
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Yes Joan- Spring has sprung and I must run! To comment on Camelias, after church. :P
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Back tonight - Just found y'all -
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I went to your Dictionary site and got a RED SCREEN pulsing at me that this is an unsafe site and never to go there again! Since we have the highest level of Spyware on our computer, and others may not, I am passing on this info. My wonderful system then , without any command, put Google words on my screen. I got wonderful, in depth explanations for the words I was researching.Also links to further, even more in depth explanations.
I don't know if this is the right place to put them down but here they are , for those who like me, did not stiudy Literature or Philosophy in college.(Or read the dictionary from cover to cover as my genius brother did).
Page 97:
CONATUS = effort, endeavor,impulse,undertaking, striving
ABJECTION=The state of being cast off.
Page 98:
EXEUNT=Used as a stage direction to indicate that two or more performers leave the stage.
APPANAGES=The grant of an estate, title or offices given to a young male soverign.
Page 104:
KAIROS=Right or opportune moment.
As to other thoughts on the material I can say that the concierge appeals to me more than the "tween". However, as yet, she is not my favorite literary character, but more intriguing than her young neighbor.
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JoanP: Isn't this the weekend of the annual Cherry Blossom Festival? Do non Washingtonian's now the trees were a gift of friendship from Japan and datge to 1912?
Wish I were closer!
Now to Camellias. Google has very helpful information on them. The plant comes from East Asia. It is a perennial with glossy leaves and showy, large flowers, similar in shape to roses. Greta Garbo wore them in the heartbreaker "Camille" based on the novel "La dame aux camelias" by Alexandre Dumas. Perhaps we could put up a link and view one?
Interesting posts, thank you. We must be patient. The first of our two hedgehogs needs to gain more trust before "opening up", if that is th correct term. She has only one friend in the world, Manuela.
Now to the new ...
lost my point, will continue
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Question # 2.
In the first chapter of this section Renée is describing her friend Manuela, the only one she has at this point, as an "aristocrat". How does SHE define the term?
Google lists four definitions for the term :
1. a member of the ruling classes or of the nobility
2. a person having the tastes, mannerse or other characteristics of the aristocracy
3. a person who advocates government by aristocracy
4. one considered to be the best of its kind.
I believe we can assume that definition # 4 applies to Manuela, the humble cleaner of the residents' apartments and facilities. And in that case I think we can agree.
The residents themselves would fit under def.. 2, IMHO.
Question # 3. Paloma is a keen observer of everything around her. Precocious and clearly gifted, she is only twelve, after all. She is also extremely self-asorbed. Teens often disagree with the views and values of their parents. She is critical of the foibles and idiosyncracies of family members, but she is not without compassion. (Renée is the cynic, IMHO.)
Jumping to Question # 8. She is a loner, but a socioipath she's not.
On page 37 (q.v.) she tells us "I am playing at wo I am ...". She thought it would be fun to make up the Profound Thoughts "for the glory of the mind" and then decides to add a second journal "about the body and about things".
Question 4. Renée tells us that she grew up "in silence" and in abject poverty. With the help of a kind teacher, who called her by her name for the first time(!), she learned that there was a whole wide wonderful world out there from which she would have been excluded - save for books. She was "physically hungry", she tells us, and sets out to read, view, listen to, in short devour and digest everything she came across, including philosophers like Hulbert, Rene Descartes and Kant, among others.
Contrast that with all that Paloma has at her disposal plus her material well-being!
Both Renée and Paloma are born observers, a trait which IMHO cannot be learned from books.
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Ahh, the cherry blossoms. For many years, I commuted to work along a road that led past the cherry trees and the tidal basin early in the morning. It was so beautiful. See some pictures here:
http://www.washingtonian.com/blogarticles/people/capitalcomment/11945.html (http://www.washingtonian.com/blogarticles/people/capitalcomment/11945.html)
The home village
I abandoned---
Cherry trees in bloom
Issa
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I know a little about camellias since they are the Alabama State Flower. They are very beautiful but not very hardy...They bloom around here in late winter and are frequently frost bitten.Of course in more Southern areas of Alabama they have a better chance of blooming without being frostbitten.
I have been in Paris when they were blooming and they were frostbitten there also.
Here is a link to lots of photos of camellias.
http://www.cfgphoto.com/photos-camellias-species.html]camellias[/url]
I have some that I have taken myself but I don't know where they are right now. I would have to search for them and might not ever come across them.
Joan Grimes
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The opera La Traviatta by Verdi was inspired by La Dame Aux Camélias by Alexandre Dumas. It is pathetic and more, the music is heavenly, Verdi outdid himself in that one I think.
http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/research/fales/exhibits/wilde/images/camelias.jpg
JeanG. and JoanK, thank you for the links. I went to Washington once during Cherry Blossom season, what a sight it must be for those who live in the area.
We see a sudden change in Renée's attitude when she is in her loge with Manuela. What is the real concierge, the one who talked to the Pallières boy about Marx or when she is with Manuela? Such a sharp contract.
Jude S, thank you for the definitions. Can you say at this point that Renée will gain in esteem from knowing more about her? Or is she now branded as an hedgehog? Is there hope for her do you think?
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JoanK,
Thank you for the link to the Washington,D.C. Cherry Blossom Festival. Many of those pictures were breathtaking. What a wonderful sight on your way to work each morning. It must have been a good way to start your day.
Joan G,
Thanks for the link to the camelias. We have a camelia just outside our back deck and now I know it's a Camelia Japonica. It starts getting buds in February, and they get bigger and bigger and just burst into bloom in March and then usually get frost bitten. But the flowers are huge about 3" across.
Enjoying all your posts, so much to think about. I have to read this book with my dictionary at my elbow. :D
Evelyn
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Camellias grow well here in West Australia - we have several varieties in the garden. They bloom prodigiously here in mid to late winter and as we don't have much in the way of frosts they come to no harm from that. - They're pretty hardy here provided they get the right soil to start them off...Beautiful flowers about 3-5 inches across, singles and doubles - all sorts of colours and bi-colours mostly in the red spectrum and white of course - I often float a handful of blooms in a low bowl where they last for several days provided the petals don't get saturated ...sorry haven't got any photos.
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Here's a link for camellias - if you click on the side panel there are some great pics of the blooms
camellias (http://www.camelliasrus.com.au)
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My copy of the book arrived with Sally yesterday afternoon, and I have busily
read up to page 50.
Remembering your posts about how both Renee and Paloma hide their intelligence, I see that both of them did explain why.
Renee, "I am saved by the inability of living creatures to believe anything that might cause the walls of their little mental assumptions to crumble."
I can imagine that people might become very upset and hostile if someone insisted on pushing those walls. Very disturbing to have ones mental assumptions challenged.
Paloma - "..since intelligence is very highly rated in my family --an exceptionally gifted child would never have a moment's peace--I try to scale
back my performance..."
That line brings up memories. My three children are bright..not bragging, just a fact. The youngest, Valerie, noticing that her elder sister and brother caught some grief from the other kids in school for their intelligence, chose to hide hers. I later learned that she would actually turn in a poor paper or fail to turn in an assignment on occasion, simply to keep her grade level down. She wanted to be liked and accepted among her peers, so she was acting similarly to Paloma.
I find Barbery's irony delicious. The slippers she wears "are so very typical
that only the coalition between a baguette and a beret could possibly contend in the domain of cliche'". She is right. Immediately 'baguette and a beret' creates a mental image for me that is so familiar and one I enjoy. I should regret to think that there are no longer Frenchmen in berets and carrying morning baguettes in the streets.
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Babi, I find Elegance so very amusing that I laugh out loud sometimes. It is delicious because some of us have had exactly those situations happening. Barbery is spot on on many occasions. The French still go out every day to buy fresh food for dinner, unless they have bought the large refrigerators we have here, then they can shop in large food stores, but that would go against their habit of cooking only from fresh produce.
Traude, about in short devour and digest everything she came across, including philosophers like Hulbert, Rene Descartes and Kant, among others. where would a poor young girl obtain such books since apparently they lived on a farm and her parents were not well read themselves. Would she have time to read between her chores? Would there be bookshelves in their modest dwelling? She didn't go to high school. I am just wondering, because she had to HIDE her superior intelligence.
But when there is a will there is a way so she did.
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Good morning!
Babi got her book!!! Hurrah! How about you, Jackie? We've got our fingers crossed for you. We're looking forward to your reactions. I'm still trying to figure out if Madame Michel is just supersensitive to the fact that these rich folks who have had so many opportunities - are looking down on her, baiting her. Are they really? Was the Pallieres boy purposely trying to flaunt his knowledge to someone who couldn't possibly know what he was talking about?
How about M. Arthens - telling her he's expecting an incunabulum - without any further explanation. Is he having fun with her? Here's a picture of an incunabulum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incunabula) - a page out of a book from antiquity older than 1501
before printing press- but of course our concierge knew exactly what he was talking about!-
Traudee brings several definitions of an aristocrat. It seems that M. Arthens is dressing the part - Eloise found a picture of the lavalier that he is sporting...
(http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:V02Sp4xBEU1Z5M:http://www.pretaporter-)
Certainly dressing the role of an aristocrat! No wonder she is aware of their class differences!
Eloise, not even high school? Now I really find it hard to believe Madame has educated herself to such lofty heights? I know she said she didn't go to college. She married at 17 - but had assumed she had some high school education!
Traudee, everyone - those definitions are how you and I might consider "aristocrats" - but the really interesting question is what Mme Michel considers an aristocrat. Why, according to her, Manuela is a true aristocrat! I the portrayal of Manuela - the contrasts between what she actually does for a living - and the way the concierge sees her - and compares her to the "aristocratic" tenants.
Thank you for the lovely Camellias - the links are breathtaking! Now, for us, the question remains - why did Muriel Barbery give these chapters the title?
Jude, thanks for the new vocabulary words! Will get them up this evening. I wasted no time getting rid of that dastardly English vocabulary site before it caused future problems.
Out of time - have a great day - look forward to all of your impressions - profound or otherwise!
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About Question 1 in the heading:
Is it only the rich who look down on the poor?
The short answer is NO. though I wonder whether the ultra- rich consider lesser mortals at all other than as a means to serve their needs.
Renee provides us with an example of the 'poor' looking down on the 'poorer' with her description of Violette Grelier, who is 'housekeeper' for the Arthens.
she began working for them thirty years ago as a simple maid, and she rose through the ranks....once she was a housekeeper she found herself reigning over a laughable kingdom whose subjects were the cleaning lady (Manuela), the part-time butler (an Englishman) and the factotum (her husband); she is as scornful of the lower classes as are her high and mighty upper-class employers
Perhaps the degree of scorn or 'looking down' is in some way related to the distance between the two classes. The closer the classes the greater the scorn of the upper - in this case Violette Grelier -for the lesser beings in her kingdom - Manuela etc.
Class prejudices - is this a universal tendency?
Sadly yes, one sees it everywhere -even here in the notoriously egalitarian Land of OZ. eg. -the 'haves' and the 'have nots' in all walks of life -trendy upwardly mobile types condescending to the 'checkout chicks' - and those female 30 something types who consider they are oh so superior to those 60+ seniors -let alone their cleaning ladies....and one sees it in reverse as well where the often poorly educated 'have nots' utterly disdain the usually better educated 'haves'
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Oh dear- I am about to be a spoiler ..no not about the book but about the gift of the Cherry Trees from Japan.
Last evening my news station had a special on that subject and showed (oh my-how to say this) the trees from Japan, on arrival, were diseased and burned. Actual photos proved the point. Other trees were planted instead. Of the hundreds of trees received 18 were saved and planted in a field on the other side of the capitol. They were planted quite a distance from each other with no other trees around. Lo and behold they made it and are now enormous and much, much larger than the cherry trees that line the boulevards. Another myth busted. But perhaps it was the thought that counted and not the gift itself.
As I continue to wend my way through the book I am bothered by the question as to why the author chose to present us with two different Hedgehogs. They are from different walks of life and have different reasons for being Hedgehogs but they are essentially the same-afraid to expose how "elegant" there true minds are. I feel that there is too much erudition being shown by the author. Hard for me to identify with this quality alone. Therefore I am reading with curiosity as to where we are being led by the author rather than the usual feeling of- "I care about these characters and want to find out what happens to them" .
In other words the authors presence is felt much more than is usual in a good book. I'm sure this is a stage and as we are carried further along this feeling may , I hope, change.
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Babi, I found a different quote that essentially says the same thing you did about why Renee goes to extremes to conceal her real self:
“I find this a fascinating phenomenon: the ability we have to manipulate ourselves so that the foundation of our beliefs is never shaken.” (pg. 108)
Renee is manipulating herself so that both her beliefs and those of the people living in her building are not shaken, let alone altered.
Joan asked: What do you think the author accomplishes with the two narrators?
I think the author is showing us that people of all generations and all social classes suffer from self doubt and present an image of themselves that will be pleasing to others. Moreover, the two narrators allow the readers to have two different viewpoints on some of the events going on in the building, like the death of the gentleman in the building.
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Éloïse and JoanP, some things are funny (in a way), but Gallic humor is definitely a different kettle of fish. I believe social criticism it not only implied but expressed. Renée seems obsessed with the rich; she "hates" them, she tells us more than once.
And why IS the hedgehog elegant? Should it be? Nota bene, so far the word has appeared ONLY in the title(!). Renée herself would never utter it in connection with herself (!)
The very premise of the book with two narrators has made me uncomfortable from the first. That's why I spoke of the "opening salvo". As much as both hedgehogs yearn to be inconspicuous but find fault with the world and the people around them, they are both showoffs - name droppers in fact. Renée has shown her true self only to her late husband, and to Manuela. She is at ease only with her, and Manuela is a much more sympathetic and sensible character.
R. idares to be herself only on Tuesdays and Thursdays (I( think it is) when Manuela comes for tea. They form a mutual admiration society and, boy, do they gossip! In R.'s eyes Manuela is an aristocrat, of course, and she is deliberate and defiant in describin her as such.
As for Question 1. I'm afraid it is a universal tendency to look down on have-nots. And those who do achieve a more "exalted" position, like Mme. Arthens, play up the role even more fiercely than "one born to the manor".
I'm pretty sure R. did not go to high school. The family was farmed but we are not told what it is they did, what kind o lot they had, or how many of them there were, nor indeed how, when and where R. found access to books before she came to Paris, where she has been for twenty-seven years.
What about the haka on pg. 38?
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Now these posts give us much to think about! I would still like to hear the reason these chapters are under the title, "Camellias" - it seems that the flower was mentioned several times throughout the chapters...did you note any of them? I'd like to put the references together and see what they have in common...
Jude, I live in Arlington, VA, just across the river from the tidal basin where the Japanese cherry trees are planted. You're right - the first batch arrived in 1909 in the condition you described, diseased and buggy. However, in 1912, the Japanese sent 3000+ more - these are the glorious ones we celebrate and commemorate each year.
As I continue to wend my way through the book I am bothered by the question as to why the author chose to present us with two different Hedgehogs.
Jude, hold on... We do have two narrators who are hiding their true selves from the rest of the world...but when you peel off the prickly outercoat, will we find true "elegance"? Perhaps there is only one elegant hedgehog to be found in the story. Is Paloma wearing a "prickly outercoat"?
Laura -
I think the author is showing us that people of all generations and all social classes suffer from self doubt and present an image of themselves that will be pleasing to others
I have to ask about Paloma - how does she appear "pleasing" to others?
Traudee reminds us that Madame Michel, keeps her true identity hidden from the so-called "aristocrats" in her building...but has revealed her true self to her husband...and to her friend, Manuela. Both husband and friend bear witness to her "elegance." (Shall we define "elegance"?) Paloma reveals herself to no one - not even to close family members. What is there to reveal, really? Why do you see Paloma as a show-off, Traudee? To whom is she showing off? I thought she was doing the opposite?
Paloma only reveals hers true self in those two notebooks. Do you get any sense of why is she keeping them at all? Does she hope that they will be read after her demise? Why does she need to keep two of them?
Gum, I'd love to hear more about what you think of the "intellectual snobbery" in these chapters. Is it directly connected to money and social standing?
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JoanP
As indicated in # 58, Paloma tell us in the second paragraph of page 37 (qv)
that the first journal is for the mind, and the second one "would talk about the body and about things. Not the profound things of the mind, but the masterpieces of
matter."
Why, Renée is showing off to the reader, of course!
She only mentions the philosophers' names but does not try to debate their theories.
She has all but dismissed Edmund Husserl and his phenomenology.
Yes, it's quite true: if we want to keep up with narrator and author, a dictionary comes in handy. I freely admit I had never heard of "haka" , therefore looked it up. Apparently it is a Maori dance, performed before ball games. Aha.
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I was appalled at Renee's childhood, with parents so stolid they scarcely noticed and rarely spoke to their children. Apparently, in Rene's case at least, she had not even a sense of her own identity. Perhaps that is one reason she guards that identity so closely now. Apparently she did not discover books until she went to school, ELOISE, so that must be where she found all her reading material.
I had to look up phenomenology, to have some idea of what Rene was facing.
".phenomenology is primarily concerned with making the structures of consciousness, and the phenomena which appear in acts of consciousness, objects of systematic reflection and analysis. Such reflection was to take place from a highly modified "first person" viewpoint, studying phenomena not as they appear to "my" consciousness, but to any consciousness whatsoever. Husserl believed that phenomenology could thus provide a firm basis for all human knowledge, including scientific knowledge. ...
I have no idea what 'structures of consciousness' means. But I long ago realized that there is no way to know that phenomena seen from 'my' viewpoint is the same as phenomena seen from anothers viewpoint. For instance, we all look at a lovely lawn and see a color we all identify as 'green'.
Yet we cannot know whether the color I see is the same as the one you see.
We have simply agreed to call what we each see 'green'. So how can phenomenology provide "a firm basis for all human knowledge..."?
I'm afraid the cherry plum test would not work for me. That sounds like the kind of highly personal test that can only be workable for the person who created it. I have to argue with Rene's statement, "..the human species, given only to survival, slowly matured and arrived one fine day at an intuition of pleasure...". I firmly believe that even the earliest humans, all creatures, in fact, found pleasure in some of the things they experienced.
As for Paloma's 'profound thoughts', despite her intelligence, she shows a profound lack of understanding. I pleases her to sneer, but it doesn't please me at all.
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Babi
I too find Palomas ''profoundness" lacking understanding, maturity and compassion. She is still only twelve years old and highly pretentious and supercilious.
This type of personality is usually a cover up for a deep sense of insecurity. Yet that quality is not obvious in her writing. Perhaps her suicidal ideation points to that feeling of inadequacy and worthlessness- no matter how she pretties it up with "deep thoughts".Gathering of the sleeping pills points to a seriousness in her ideation.
Possibly the author is a good philosopher and a clever writer but falls short in her understanding of Psychology and of child and adolescent psychology in particular.
Or perhaps M. Barbery is basing her story of Paloma on herself at that age?
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Joan P asked: I have to ask about Paloma - how does she appear "pleasing" to others?
I noted on pages 23-4 of the book, that the image she projects is a falsification of herself both in order to be someone she thinks others would want her to be and so that she minimizes attention to herself:
“Even now, if you look at children my age, there’s an abyss between us. And since I don’t really want to stand out, and since intelligence is very highly rated in my family --- an exceptionally gifted child would never have a moments’ peace --- I try to scale back my performance at school, but even so I always come first. You might think that to pretend to be simply of average intelligence when you are twelve years old like me and have the level of a senior in college is easy. Well, not at all. It really takes an effort to appear stupider than you are. But, in a way, this does keep me from dying of boredom;”
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Renee states on page 107:
“I am a very camellia-on-moss sort of person. If I really think about it, there is nothing else that can quite explain my withdrawal into this bleak loge of mine.”
From this, I assumed that Renee is the camellia and her surroundings and/or image of herself that she projects is the moss.
Camellias bloom for only a day, if I recall from my days in Baton Rouge, and are beautiful and appreciated by everyone during their short life span. Moss lives a long time, is attached to things like trees and rocks, and blends in with the surroundings, often unnoticed, because it becomes a part of the things to which it attaches.
The building’s tenants think Renee is like the moss, but she would like to be noticed and appreciated, like the camellia.
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AHA! There is a reason why we have been posting haiku by Issa. Issa is his pen name, and means the steam from a cup of tea. We see in this section that tea is very important to Renee, and (by some means becomes so to Paloma).
The author is taking us further and further into Japanese culture, and becoming more zen-like. Some of her statements are pure Buddism.
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Is it hard to think that our concierge could have acquired such an education not having gone further than primary school? Page 42 says «But my studious youth came to a halt at the certificate of studies." A ‘Certificat d’Étude Primaire’ marks the end of primary schooling in France.
As Traude mentioned we find the two friends quite often gossiping. Is it they only thing they have in common? Do Renée and Manuela have the same view on life? Is it Manuela’s natural philosophy about life that appeals to Renée?
Babi, thanks for the explanation of what phenomenology is, I would have never guessed.
I found it very strange that the girl friends brew coffee just for the smell and drank tea with their tuiles. This is the recipe for tuiles aux amandes
http://scally.typepad.com/cest_moi_qui_lai_fait/2008/05/tuiles-aux-aman.html
What is the point in pretending that the occupants drink coffee instead of tea?
Some of her statements are pure Buddism. Traude is that so? I don't know anything about Buddism. Do tell us more.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/hdghogcvr.jpg) | "Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -
"Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1836659,00.html)
The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence from a world she finds meaningless. The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27
April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129
April 13-16 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170 ~ (Topics for April 13-16) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/weekthreehedgehogquestions.html)
April 17-21 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238
April 22-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325
Final Thoughts | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/DavidTroodG460.jpg)
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For Your Consideration
April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129
1. Do the cited instances of class prejudices have less of an impact on those of us who do not live in classed-based societies, or is this a universal tendency? Is it only the rich who look down on the poor? How do the have-nots regard the rich in these pages?
2. Do you agree with Mme. Michel's definition of an "aristocrat"? Do any of the tenants at 7, Rue de Grenelle fit this description?
3. Is Paloma's cynicism and her constant criticism of her family normal for a twelve year old girl? Why is she keeping two separate notebooks? Do you think she is seriously considering suicide or just the idea of the effect it would have on others?
4. Do the philosophical musings help you to understand Renée Michel, the way she thinks, learns and arrives at conclusions - or do they get in the way? How have Kant's views of what we can know of the world, influenced Renée in her pursuit of education?
5. Contrast Paloma and Renée's early educational experience. Does Paloma seem to be into books the same way that Renée was at her age?
6. Is it fair to say that Renée learns from books while Paloma from her observation of others? How do Renée's reading habits compare to your own?
7. It has been said that Paloma and the concierge mirror one another in the conclusions they reach on the meaning of life - and death. From their journal entries, can you cite any specific similarities in thinking?
8. Is Paloma asocial, a "loner"? Does she turn to anyone for companionship or guidance? How does she compare to Mme. Michel, holed up in the back room of her loge?
9. How did you react to Paloma's visit to her grandmaman in the nursing home? Were you appalled, or did you find yourself agreeing with her observations?
10. Do you detect a slight shift in your own attitudes towards life or death - or somewhere in between? Are you contemplating any life changes, even small ones? Do you still drink that "nasty" coffee, par example?
Relevant Links:
Glossary of posted Definitions (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/glossaryhedgehog.html)
French-English Dictionary (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt);
Hôtels particuliers (http://images.google.ca/images?hl=fr&q=hotels+particuliers+in+paris&btnG=Recherche+d%27images&gbv=2); An Interview with Muriel Barbery (http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/?author_number=1656&Barbery-interview);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Eloise (eloisede@sympatico.ca )
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Éloïse, thanks for the wonderful link; les tuiles aux amandes are a visual treat and so was the presentation. Must view that again.
I am sorry but I just lost another message - in it I said that I find myself in agreement with Babi, Jude, Laura, JoanK and Éloïse
* about Renée's playing the rôle of stereotypical concierge to the hilt - brewing coffee in the visible part of the loge while sipping tea in the back room with Manuela in the chambre separée !! Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Would the self-preoccupied residents of the luxury apartments really care if they saw that? Could it then be true that concierges are considered subhuman in Paris ? Is that the author's beef?
* ditto for Paloma's pronouncements. She is articulate but still "unleavened". :D - or wet behind the ears.
Phenomenology and ontology could well be the author's specialty, because these are after all HER words. It all seems to be coming together, and I had it all down in the post I just lost. But tomorrow is another day.
BTW
* Did you see that Leo the cat is named after Tolstoy?
* and the cats in the Josse household are called "Constitution"and "Government" ?
Am I reading this correctly in Profound Thoughts No. 2 ? Is that an ironic reference? Hmmmm
M. Josse works for the Government, but still ...
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Someone raised the word Haka which is a Maori Dance. The version Paloma mentions is the one performed by the All Blacks Rugby team before their matches which has caused the Haka to be known worldwide. However there are many kinds of Haka for all sorts of occasions - war (as with the rugby players), ceremonial to greet or farewell important visitors etc. - celebratory to mark particular occasions and so on. The movements are all full of particular significance. Most are performed by men however there are some Hakas which women dance.
I think Paloma has just reached puberty - which is causing the angst against her family - and she is not yet comfortable with herself. Perhaps the Maori rugby player who captures her attention has more than his inner centredness going for him. I think also that she has often watched the game with her father in the past (and maybe snuggled up to him and shared his snacks) but her changing body won't allow her that closeness any more.
I can't see that Paloma would have had any bearing on the naming of the cats - her father or perhaps more likely her mother would have chosen the names Constitution and Government to reflect M. Josse's occupation - even importance....
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I like your comments re. the camellia and the moss, LAURA. That is a most
reasonable explanation of that strange comment by Paloma.
I found that coffee/tea combo odd also, ELOISE. It seems a wasteful expense to me, but perhaps I am unduly influenced by the high price of everything these days. :-X
Q. How have Kant's views of what we can know of the world, influenced Renée in her pursuit of education?
I found this quote to be a fair summary of Kant's teaching. (Emphasis is mine.)
A large part of Kant's work addresses the question "What can we know?" The answer, if it can be stated simply, is that our knowledge is constrained to mathematics and the science of the natural, empirical world. It is impossible, Kant argues, to extend knowledge to the supersensible realm of speculative metaphysics.
The reason that knowledge has these constraints, Kant argues, is that the
mind plays an active role in constituting the features of experience and
limiting the mind's access to the empirical realm of space and time.
Renee believes that there is nothing beyond this world and what can be
learned and experienced within it. She has said she likes Kant for his clarity and beauty of his language. She has a fine mind, and enjoys using it to the utmost.
Perhaps Kant's primary influence on her education is simply that she enjoyed
reading him so much and gained confidence in her ability to grasp whatever she
chose to study.
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Good morning, Babi! You have tackled Kant so early in the day!
I've been out of town, visiting son, his wife and four grandchilden - all under the age of seven. As you might imagine - I'm exhausted this morning. (Did I mention that the three younger ones are boys?) :D I slept in this morning for the first time in a long time.
First, I have to say, your posts are simply wonderful - each deserving our full attention. Not only that, they are all over the place- which is to be expected, since that is how these Camellias chapters are presented, moving back and forth from the notebooks and the musings of two different narrators.
I think we are doing fine with these chapters, difficult as it may be to follow where the author appears to be taking us. I worry that some of you are overwhelmed - and sincerely hope that you hold on - these are the difficult chapters (and perhaps the most rewarding) - but the next section is a piece of cake!
Somewhere in my notes I have an interview in which the author describes her thought processes while writing the book. I found them interesting and helpful. We know little about her, except that she was a professor of philosophy and now lives in Japan. She is married to the person whose name she recognizes in the dedication of the book - who is Japanese.
I'll go hunt for the interview - and then spend some time digesting your posts. Thank you all so much for making this discussion what we had hoped it would be.
Carry on!
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Good Morniing Everyone,
About all that I can say at this point is that this book is hard going. I am trying to keep on with it though. I have very few thoughts about it . I will say I am still reading it. I really do not know why I am still reading it. I suppose that I am hoping that soon I will know why.
Now none of what I said made any sense did it.
Joan Grimes
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This sentence struck me from Profound thought No. 3 on page 57 starts with this poem,
The strong ones....Among Humans...Do nothing....They talk....And talk again.
...humans live in a world where it's words and not deeds that have power, where the ultimate skill is mastery of language ... That's a terrible thing because basically we are primates, who've been programmed to eat, sleep, reproduce, conquer and make our territory safe, and the ones who are most gifted at that, the most animal types among us, always get screwed by the others, the fine talkers, despite these latter being incapable of defending their own garden or bringing a rabbit home for dinner or procreating properly.
Do you agree that the most gifted in language have the most power?
Traude, I wonder why the author didn't translate the word tuiles. It's not a very pretty name for such a delicacy don't you think?.
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Oh, yes JoanG - everything you said made perfect sense - and I'm sure some of those struggling along with you feel the same way. Hopefully you will be rewarded for your perseverance. Let me assure you - the clouds lift, the sun comes out - as soon as we make our way through the many ideas crammed into the Camellias chapters - and move on to the chapters on "Grammar".
But understanding what is being said in "Camellias" is so important in understanding what is to come.
Which character do you find easier to get to know - or harder to understand? We are seeing similarities between the two - but real differences too.
This is from an interview with the author (not the one I'm looking for, but I thought you might appreciate it) :
Your concierge, on the other hand, is an expert on Tolstoy, but also on philosophy. And even the teenaged Paloma, in her own way, expresses a propensity for abstract speculation.
“I followed a long, boring course of studies in philosophy. I expected it to help me understand better that which surrounds me: but it didn’t work out that way. Literature has taught me more. I was interested in exploring the bearing philosophy could really have on one’s life, and how. I wanted to illuminate this process. That’s where the desire to anchor philosophy to a story, a work of fiction, was born: to give it more meaning, make it more physically real, and render it, perhaps, even entertaining.”
Nouvelle Philosophe: Interview with Muriel Barbery (http://www.europaeditions.com/review-show.php?Id=414)
Eloise - thank you for this important information - A ‘Certificat d’Étude Primaire’ marks the end of primary schooling in France."
Would that make Renée the same age as Paloma is now when she began her"education"? I think it might - but how very different they are at this age! Jude suggests the possibility that M. Barbery is basing her Paloma's character on herself at that age. Barbery herself points out in the interview that Paloma expresses a propensity for abstract speculation."
From her writing, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this didn't describe the author at this age. Notice that she doesn't say that Paloma is well read - but she certainly has "a propensity for speculation" on that which she observes. We can see that in her notebooks. Laura's post reminds us that Paloma thinks she has reached the level of a senior in college. I wonder where she gets this idea? Has she been tested? Is there such a test? She may have gone off the charts on an IQ test, but that doesn't mean she has accomplished college level work. I think this is an adolescent speaking - who feels insecure because she is so unlike others of her own age.
I agree with Babi - despite her intelligence, she has much to learn.
I thought the interview was revealing- Barbery writes - "I followed a long, boring course of studies in philosophy. I expected it to help me understand better that which surrounds me: but it didn’t work out that way. Literature has taught me more."
I thought that was very funny - coming from a professor of philosophy as she is! The comment sounds like it could come from our concierge, doesn't it?
Babi, you clearly stated for us that which Renée got from her study of Kant - that there is nothing beyond this world and what can be
learned and experienced within it.
Kant's primary influence on her education is simply that she enjoyed
reading him so much and gained confidence in her ability to grasp whatever she
chose to study. And that she did!
Is this the lesson that Paloma has yet to learn?
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Gum, Traude, I agree the onset of puberty has much to do with Paloma's reactions to her surroundings - poor maman and papa! "Movement" seems to capture her attention - she's devoted a whole notebook to such observations. Doesn't she seem to be looking for a hope in these observations - hope that things are not as hopeless as they seem? That beauty can be found in motion.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/MaoriWardanceKahuroa.jpg/260px-)
But the motion that she talks about, the movement of the star rugby player - in which he doesn't seem to move like the rest of the players - can someone explain that? The whole concept of movement without seeming to move? I need help with this!
Imagine the impact on the 12 year old girl as she closely observes the New Zealand rugby players perform the haka danceon TV? Certainly worth noting in the Movement notebook!!! Can you see this? You've got to see them in motion -
Rugby players doing the Haka (be sure to click this link!) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83U_Vg1GRvA)
Paloma's Profound thoughts seem to be another attempt to find a reason to live, do you seem them like that? Looking for an alternative to life in a fishbowl.
Eloise, it is depressing to think that those who do nothing but talk are the ones who have the power. I'm reminded here of the New Zealand rugby players - commanding respect by their action, not by words.
You ask an interesting question -Do you believe it's true - that those who talk, those who command respect, hold the power over those who don't? Those who talk, talk, talk, but do nothing? Isn't that how Paloma sees it?
How do you think Renée Michel would answer this question?
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Joan, My view is that powerful people all have exceptional language skills whether they are honest or dishonest because it is with language that they have become good at manipulating or should I say persuading people.
Before a child can walk he knows that language is the best connector between himself and his family and knows that he will get much more attention, food, and gifts if he can talk. Children not exposed early enough to language as in the case of Madame Michel usually cannot get a good job or even a good life partner and that is probably why her superior intelligence has not procured her a better job than a concierge. She is a poor communicator because she lacked the proper stimulus as a child. And if that is accompanied by poor physical attributes, then ‘ton chien est mort’ (your dog is dead) as we say here. I would even go as far as saying that this is what has been the major contributor to the poor rapport she has with the tenants in her building. With her high intelligence, language skills is something she never realized she lacked or perhaps she didn’t care to acquire, being first and foremost an intellectual hermit.
Paloma on the other hand has a father who is both powerful and a parliamentarian, at the dinner table she heard conversation from both her parents who were good conversationalists and their guests would have brought Paloma a vast knowledge in how the country is run and what makes it run. I see a brilliant future for that little girl and in my crystal ball I see her as a lawyer first a politician second. She will be an extremely good communicator because of her family situation that also has transmitted their intellect, which is not to be sneered at no matter what she says about them.
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Haven't finished all this weeks reading yet - but I am not too far behind - what strikes me is that both our hedgehogs are lonely and are trying to live based on what they think society expects of them.
As to our little one I get the impression, her parents are busy with their lives and her mom drugs herself to sleep - the clue for me is that either drugging or drinking they both are accompanied by behavior that has a way of shutting out children as well as, expecting certain behavior from children. Paloma is curious and bright so that she would feel separate, apart from others her age adding to her loneliness.
Both create theater in their lives with afternoon coffee/tea visits and reading as if deranged. The ironic dry humor is wonderful. Reminds me of the humor in the Wodehouse wit in the Jeeves short story we just read.
Watching the Rugby team do Haka was not near as awesome and literally frightening as seeing a group in native dress perform years ago on the Dave Letterman show - even he was taken back - I could feel the power that ceremony/dance creates in my living room.
I smile over the coffee/tea - when I was a young I loved the scent and look of ice tea in a clear glass pitcher but did not like the taste - a few times I remember making it just to have on the table as we ate our summer salad supper that we finished off with cold grape juice over fresh mint leaves from the driveway.
Some of the comments are precious and makes you think - Almost wish I had time to read this slowly - ponder and take in the comments. I am all set to start a notebook myself - found and successfully bid on eBay a real Parker Pen with a narrow gold nip point - this could be the push I need to put my new/used pen in action while I devote a notebook to some inane collection of ideas.
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Paloma's description of the Bacon paintings made me curious enough to go look. Definitely not my 'cup of tea', but if you're interested:
http://www.artquotes.net/masters/bacon_paintings.htm
I wonder if some of Renee's attitude towards the occupants of her building is not a continuing resentment of their carelessness and disinterest when her husband was dying. Her passionate anger still shows through clearly even after all the years passed since his death.
BARB, I think you just ansered for me the question: "What is going on in the Meurisse family, that both of their daughters are in so much trouble?!" A 12-yr-old is suicidal, and the older sister flies into hysterical rages over trivia. Both of these girls need help desperately, and for all we can tell from Paloma's comments, the parents are doing nothing to help them.
JOANG, I find parts of the book a definite slog. The short chapter she spends explaining why she thinks phenomenology is not worth her time, for example. I agree with her; I just found the chapter boring.
JOANP, I thought Paloma was caught by the complete focus of the rugby player on the dance. He seemed totally involved in what he was doing. Plus, as someone has pointed out, she is a young girl entering puberty, and has suddenly found bodies and their movements fascinating.
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Babi, I don't think I will ever grow to like Bacon's work, but who knows how he will be liked 100 years from now, and he says:
"Some artists leave remarkable things which, a 100 years later, don’t work at all. I have left my mark; my work is hung in museums, but maybe one day the Tate Gallery or the other museums will banish me to the cellar.. you never know."
Francis Bacon
Yes, Renée's resentment toward the occupants of the building could very well have been their indifference towards her husband's death. Some people never forget
Joan G, I am glad you didn't put the book down yet. I ask because if a book grabs me I can't put it down. I choose my books very carefully and not very often one doesn't have any appeal for me and I don't finish it. But for me this one gets better and better and after you've read it it all comes together. Please continue on and share your thoughts with us.
I had never seen sports events where the players performed a dance like the Haka Barbara as you say it must be to create excitement. It's a powerful dance.
Joan, moving without moving? I am trying to understand that too.
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good grief - had this post and all of a sudden the whole screen shifted - the post disappeared and here I am back again - drats - no time now to rewrite - back later today...
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Aha, Barbara - your lost post is a perfect example of the ephemeral present - I hope that you enjoyed the moments you spent on the post . (Sometimes when I lose a post like that - just sometimes, I'm able to retrieve it by scrolling up in the screen - I don't know how the post gets way up there, but sometimes that's where it goes when it seems to disappear and the screen is blank.)
I sense there's a message here, Eloise - about motion, the motion which seems to be frozen in time - giving the appearance of not moving at all. ... Laura posted yesterday about the short life span of the camellia - The breathtaking bloom lasts only a day or so. Evelyn says that Camelia Japonica starts forming buds in February, bursts into bloom in March, only to get frostbitten. So the message, as I'm understanding it - Enjoy the moment, live in the present, as if there is no tomorrow.
Babi, that's how I saw the rugby player too - completely focused, totally involved in the moment - oblivious to everything else. There's more to the message than that...but it escapes me at the moment. What did you take from this? Make each day count - as if it is my last. Because one of these days it will be. Who said that?
I'm thinking this is a very important lesson worth considering - worth slogging through these chapters - as you put it, Babi! ;)
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It's the "slogging" I'm concerned about, Eloise. Ás you say, the book gets better, but I'm afraid the slogging will cause readers - our posters, to put the book aside and move on. That would be such a shame. And yet we just can't recommend moving on, skipping through the Camellia chapters, because a.they set the groundwork for what is to come - and b. there is such good stuff here if we work at it. Why does it have to be so difficult to pull out the nuggets?
In the author interview which I am unable to find at the moment, M.Barbery says that she always wanted to write - that when she writes she doesn't think of writing for an audience, she just lets it come out as if she is alone with her thoughts. Well, she is a professor of philosophy, by trade, after all. I know that the editor had looked in on our discussion earlier - so I hesitate to say this - but do you agree that a firmer hand from the editor might have helped us, the readers?
I don't know, maybe others will not agree, certainly the book has been a success both abroad - and in the U.S. The author writes that she has been surprised at the response - and that "its success has allowed me to realize some of my dreams,
to live in Japan and to be able to write full-time."
JoanK noted earlier that "the author is taking us further and further into Japanese culture, and becoming more zen-like. Some of her statements are pure Buddism." Joan, will you expand on this? We know that the author lives with her husband in Japan - in Kyoto, as a matter of fact- so the Japanese influence is not surprising.
Like the tea ritual. Yes, let's get into that - Manuela and Renée with the jasmine tea - while the aroma of coffee wafts through the door frame into the hall. What is it about coffee? Why does she go through the trouble to mask her tea-drinking?
And notice Paloma - distainful of her parents' art choices - really the Bacon painting of the girl on the toilet (do I remember that right - or was she simply at her toilette?) was too much - I don't see that one in the link you found, Babi, maybe the Josses' have an original - but this one in the bathroom gives us an idea what it must have been like -
Self Portrait of the Artist (Bacon) - in the Bathroom (http://www.artquotes.net/masters/bacon/paint_selfportrait.htm)
But poor Papa enjoying his morning coffee - nasty. Nasty people drink coffee, she concludes Oh my. I must be a nasty person in the morning - a cup of jasmine tea would be a lovely way to start the day, wouldn't it? I've never tasted jasmine tea, have you? Green tea, yes, but we're talking jasmine tea here.
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Eloise: it was me, that said that Barbury's statements were Buddhist. I was thinking of the last sentance om page 101:
"The camillia against the moss of the temple, the violet hues of the Kyoto mountains, a blue porcelain cup-- this sudden flowering of pure beauty at the heart of ephemeral passion ....
The contemplation of eternity within the very moment of life".
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Again, drinking tea p. 91 "At moments like this the web of life is revealed by the power of ritual,...Moments like this act as magical interludes, placing our hearts at the edge of our souls: fleetingly yet intensely, a fragment of eternity has come to enrich time".
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JoanK, this absolutely lovely, they are soft expressions of beauty.
JoanP, the interview you mention, is it not the one in the heading?
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Koeh-025.jpg/220px-Koeh-025.jpg)
botanical print of a tea plant know as (Camellia sinensis) - Camellia is taken from the Latinized name of Rev. Georg Kamel, S.J. (1661-1706), a Czech-born Jesuit priest who became both a prominent botanist and a missionary to the Philippines
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Barbara - just lovely. I confess I was a bit disappointed that the artist was not Japanese...a tie between tea and the camellia?
Oh yes, Eloise! That's the interview! I looked everywhere but there in the heading!
This is the part I found most interesting - she sounds like the rugby player, focused on the game, oblivious to everything around him -
Did you include philosophical references in the book to draw the reader in?
M. Barbery: I have to make a confession: I never think of the reader as I write. Writing is an intimate, almost secret, activity. I only follow with my pen my own sensations and desires. This is why the experience of publication is so strange and complicated. I am very happy to be read, but at the same time, the knowledge that I'm being read sometimes even annoys me.
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Had a thought on our Concierge - I remember years ago with a wink and a smile a Black cleaning woman chatting with me and when the name of a family she recently hired out to was mentioned there was this short hand between us when she said, she 'out mammied the mammy' which we knew ment she was exagerating the sterio type because the family did not embrace her as part of their family.
It was a way of putting one over on the reserved family that gave her some power but did not get her fired.
Like we read years ago in one of the books we discussed that the Paddy in Ireland was a act so the English would think the fellow foolish and inconsequential therefore either treat him as a folk hero or leave him alone -
And so I am thinking all that explanation of how she set a rouse for the occupants and even used her husband as part of the theater with his watching TV while she plays a Madame Defarge using books rather then knitting needles.
And that whole chapter on 'naming' I laughed and laughed at how she stretched out the simple concept - that was the big thing back in the 70s - how women were denied the opportunity to name things and events and how important naming is.
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Re: Palomas' account of her families "Weirdness".
I really am not all that sure that the family is so weird. She is a rather strange, rather depressed preadolescent and I wouldn't take everything she says at face value. Her isolation colors everything she does. Her sister fits in better than she and it seems to me that Paloma is very jealous of Colombe and acts perversely in order to have her own identity and not compete with a successful sister.
The Mother, with a PhD in Literature must have fueled her daughters interest in books. Her Father loves her but is busy with an important government job. She is not deprived, abused or unloved. Most girls her age are very social. She obviously has some type of problem that isolated her from her peers.
I think the author is exaggerating her condition so that eventually the two main characters will find each other somehow. It is inevitable since they live in the same building. What will be the Deux Ex Machina that will throw them in each other's paths?
I don't know, but it does seem inevitable.
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Éloïse, your # 89 is an eloquent assessment, a benefit from having digested the book before.
JoanP, it's true that the book is demanding. All we can do is encourage people to stay with us. There IS going to be movement; things WILL come together.
I've just been through this experience with the local book group. Half of them said they "couldn't get into it", which was disappointing for the rest of us because we couldn't talk about the surprising developments and the denouement. (Well, we COULD have but we didn't want to spoil it for those who said they'd try again.)
What readers expect is (at least some) action and the inkling of a plot. So far we've had a great deal of contemplation and ruminations and associations of ideas (idées d'association) about phenomenology, ontology, transcendental idealism, consciousness and the structures thereof (!) bordering on metaphysics, narrated in the voices/journals of two very different hermit-like characters whose isolation the author considers "elegant" for some reason. Her erudition is beyond doubt ad vividly displayed, but like Paloma's repeated affirmations of her superior intelligence it is all a bit too much. Just MHO.
Thank you, JoanP, for the video of the haka dance. As Gumsaid, there are dfferent forms of this traditional Maori dance. We don't know whether the linked dance is like the ones performed before games (and which Paloma was anxious not to miss). In the video we see a group facing an opponent with threatening, perhaps intimidating postures, but they are hardly "motionless movement", which sounds like a contradiction in terms any way.
In the former WREX we had a New Zealander known as Kiwilady who told us about the efforts made by the NZ Government especially in the last decades to officially recognize the Maori language and at long last give government positions to people of these indigenous whno arrived in canoes circa AD 1350 from Polynesia.
Whether one takes tea or coffee is surely a matter of taste and preference, wouldn't you say?rather than a sign of social superiority or inferiority. It's ever been thus. The Romans called it suum cuique, the French chacun à son goût and we say "to each his own". It seems to me that the two hedgehogs in their respective self-imposed isolation from the world at large have become fixated on certain things which I for one don't feel compelled to share. That applies definitely to bathroom "decorations". :)
I wasn't the one who described the Josses as "weird", I said "odd", and I would add wacky. It is not my intention to be judgmental (not my style). Moreover, there's a skeleton in many a family's closets >:(
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I appreciated what Renee' had to say about sex. "...a loveless session of gymnastics is not what we have struggled so hard to master." I have felt, and tried to express, my conviction that today's attitudes towards sex have degraded it from what it could..and should...be.
I disagree, tho', that our 'true nature' consists only of defending our territory,
protecting our status, and reproducting. (I assume that defense includes basic
survival.) I believe that our true nature also includes an instinctual search for
meaning, purpose and beauty. Survival certainly comes first, but as soon as the essential demands are met, human souls turn to that search hungrily.
She also struck a chord when she spoke of "All the words we should have said, gestures we should have made..." You would think that over time we could let go of those regrets, but apparently not. I suppose much of it is simply 'unfinished business' in our souls.
Another chord was "..the forward rush of life is crystallized in a jewel of a
moment that knows neither projects nor future..."
We've all known such moments, haven't we? They are indeed crystallized in our memory, never to be forgotten.
It was encouraging that Renee was able to break her habit of secretiveness, to say something real and honest to Chabrot when he came to say good-bye.
I would like to see her break free from this necessity to hide who she is from everyone.
Oh, I tried to find Paloma's word "conatus", but it wasn't in my dictionary. I did find what is certainly a related word and seems to convey her meaning.
"Conation: an instinct, drive, wish, craving, etc. to act purposefully."
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Traude, I was so busy laughing through Profound Thought No. 2 (about the cats) and reading it to my husband with our cat present, that I don’t know that I took anything serious from it. :D
Eloise asked: Do you agree that the most gifted in language have the most power?
No. Certainly they have some power. However, it takes too many people of all types and talents to make the world function each day to say that those most gifted in language have the most power. I was reminded of this a few days ago when a gentleman came to repair my heating oil burner. He was no great orator, but had all the power to help me have heat and hot water again. I may have been the better orator, but I had no knowledge.
JoanP asked: Which character do you find easier to get to know - or harder to understand?
I don’t understand all of Renee’s political and philosophical references, so she is more difficult to understand and relate to.
JoanP said: But the motion that she talks about, the movement of the star rugby player - in which he doesn't seem to move like the rest of the players - can someone explain that? The whole concept of movement without seeming to move? I need help with this!
I got the impression that the one player was doing the dance not as a performance for the audience, but as a ritual to prepare himself. He wasn’t trying to affect the audience (“move the audience,” so to speak), but was trying to affect himself.
“What makes the strength of a soldier isn’t the energy he uses trying to intimidate the other guy by sending him a whole lot of signals, it’s the strength he’s able to concentrate within himself, by staying centered.” ((pg. 40)
Super video link of the haka!
The Bacon paintings are creepy!
Well, I am ready for Renee and Paloma to interact and for there to be less contemplation and more action…
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Well, I am ready for Renee and Paloma to interact and for there to be less contemplation and more action…
Laura, I bet we're ALL looking forward to some "movement." ;) Have you tried to imagine which of the two will initiate the interaction? Certainly not Renée, she doesn't chat with the high-born tenants or their offspring, does she? She did make one friend - the Portuguese cleaning woman - She calls her a true "aristocrat" - "a woman who is never sullied by vulgarity, although she may be surrounded by it." Manuela is discerning, isn't she? Treats Renée like a queen. Do you expect Paloma, with her great powers of observation will see what Manuela does?
Paloma? She dislikes just about everyone - including her grandmaman! Her own grandma!!!- Although she did take pity on her nursing home situation. Jude, I agree, she is depressed and isolated. As you point out, most girls her age are social, talkative. Would she talk to a psychologist though? It seems she needs to talk to someone! A friendship with the concierge might be just what she needs. Someone who can accept her for the person she really is. I can't wait to see who initiates the interaction. I'm guessing it will be an accidental meeting.
According to the posted schedule, we should be moving into the next chapters on Grammar - tomorrow! Are we ready, or shall we buy more time on the Camellia section? If we move on, you could always feel free to back track - as Grammar is built on Camellias. If we don't see any requests to stay with Camellias for a while, we'll plan on moving forward...
And we do have today to continue with the Camellia's on moss. I'm not sure I see Renée as the camellia, do you? I'm going to get some coffee tea - and savor your last posts...
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Traudee - it seems that both of our narrators are finding tea a superior beverage to coffee - more refined, more elegant. Do you suppose it is the ritual they enjoy?
I'm not so sure I am see both narrators, "hedgehogs" yet. It's true they are both hiding their knowledge - for different reasons.
I definitely don't see the author considering their isolation "elegant" - would like to hear why you do?
Here's another Haka dancer - you can't take your eyes off of the shirtless player. Perhaps he's the one who piqued Paloma's interest?
Another Haka performance - (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd0kDxP04eI&feature=related)
As Laura sees him - he was doing the dance not as a performance for the audience, but as a ritual to prepare himself. He wasn’t trying to affect the audience (“move the audience,” so to speak), but was trying to affect himself."
Do you think this explains her fascination with the rugby player? - her refusal to perform for her class, for her family - she is not interested in "affecting her audience"?
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"..the forward rush of life is crystallized in a jewel of a
moment that knows neither projects nor future..."
Babi - this sounds just like what Paloma is looking for in her quest for Movement, a moment, a memory of something worth saving. So far, she seems to be coming up short.
It is amazing, isn't it, the "moments you remember from so long ago, "crystallized - as if ithey just happened...
You seem to have a real understanding of Renée - your posts remind us of where she came from - no one spoke or communicated at home. Remember the first day of school, the first time anyone called her by her name?
No wonder she is unable to communicate now.
Even her husband didn't know who she really was, until after he married her. It was interesting to hear him explain the reasons he was asking her to marry him. He wanted a loyal wife, someone to care for their home and mother his children.... Babi, considering Renee's comment on "the emphasis on reproducing" does it seem she is commenting about the children she never had? Perhaps she will "mother" Paloma, when they do meet.
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Indeed, I'm finding the book slow going, but I'm enjoying it, not bogged down. I still have 20 pages to go, though.
Barbery says; "Writing is an intimate, almost secret, activity. I only follow with my pen my own sensations and desires."
Laura and Joan point out that the Haka dancer and Paloma aren't trying to affect the audience.
These highlight what I think is a problem with the book. To me, the voices of both Renee and Paloma aren't quite convincing. Neither of them is quite consistent with the person. They are really both Barbery talking to herself, perhaps Barbery at different stages. In a way that isn't a problem, because I like Barbery, and am enjoying being inside her head.
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As usual, when I'm in over my head I resort to trivia, but I do have a number of them.
Eloise, what is the French word for cherry-plum? I can't figure out what fruit it is.
JoanK, surely what the Haka dancer is doing, getting strength by staying quietly centered within himself is also Buddhism?
Here in torrid Maryland, camellias aren't ephemeral. Mine have been blooming for almost 2 weeks and aren't done yet. Here's one.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1048_2camcrp.jpg (http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff125/PatriciaFHighet/IMG_1048_2camcrp.jpg)
I'm sure Barbery means white camellias, but this one was pretty and I wanted to share. It looks misty because I took the picture through glass and it was misty this morning, but that fits.
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surely what the Haka dancer is doing, getting strength by staying quietly centered within himself is also Buddhism?
This is an aspect of Eastern philosophy - it is basic to Zen and there are various ways to practice being centered without movement in Taoism, Yoga and Buddhism. Yes Pat, you have it - the concept is that to focus on doing well the movement required rather than the outcome desired. And even further - for most Westerners we only connect with movement through kinetic movement of our body so that we aware of space by feeling air moving around us. Where as the Eastern practice is to stay still until the movement of the body comes about without mentally forcing or thinking the movement. Athletes call it being in the zone.
Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk at Our Lady of Gethsemani Abbey in Kentucky, in his book, "Courage for Truth" talks about motionless movement. Merton spent a year in Asia back in the late 1960s.
I didn't know but this article explains there are 100-250 species of Camellias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia
I am enjoying the various references to philosophical authors and thoughts - reminds me of the many books that throw out references to literary authors or poets. Makes the story richer and puts a smile on my face so that the story is not just a straight up story of Dick and Jane did this or that and this is what they were afraid was going to happen but that is what actually happened and then they surprise the reader by handling the catastrophe in a way we would not guess so we all go home happily or not ever after.
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Wow! that Haka sure could discombobulate the other team . Interesting! And you can feel the power. And as JoanP mentioned their total focus.
Here's an English link to the tuiles with a recipe.http://recipes.epicurean.com/recipe/13825/tuiles-aux-amandes-almond-tile-wafers.html
I've read all your fascinating comments. Just got a copy of the book from the lib
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Wow! that Haka sure could discombobulate the other team . Interesting! And you can feel the power. And as JoanP mentioned their total focus
And that is exactly what the Rugby Haka is intended to do. It's a version of the haka the Maori once danced before they went into battle. They danced to intimidate the enemy - in this case the opposing rugby team.
There are so many philosophical ideas floating around in our current section of the book - Ideas that could usefully occupy many, many hours of research and contemplation. However much I would like to follow them up I'm tending to just let them waft by and settle where they will - Of course they are being helped along by the knowledgable comment here. Hopefully this section will have bearing on that to come so I am reading it carefully. Like others here I'm looking forward to some interaction between the characters. At present I neither like nor dislike either one though I am more in tune with Renee.
Question 6 asks - How do Renee's reading habits compare with your own?
I think Renee's habits are very like most people who are not studying a particular field or discipline - some of this and some of that - I tend to choose from all kinds of subject matter either as the whim and particular interests take me or as certain books or authors cross my path. Sometimes one reading experience will lead to a concentrated foray into a particular field which is often long sustained if only intermittently - there have been many of these over the years. I suspect Renee selects her reading material in a similar manner though I sense that she is more determined in her approach. One other similarity is that I want to read it all - and so does Renee.
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There is definitely a rivalry between the two sisters JudeS and often times when there are only two children in a family, the eldest receives more attention especially if she is pretty. I looked up Deus Ex Machina. Right we will soon find out what brings Renée and Paloma together, it is unusual.
Traude, It’s interesting how the author goes about displaying her erudition, through the two characters who are apart in age, apart in social standing. But as Renée is performing her daily task it might be shocking for the tenants in the apartment if they saw her displaying her erudition. Her physique fits the job, but not her mind. Is the author pointing out the fact that you have to blend in while interacting in society being careful not to stand out in a crowd and be noticed?
Babi, Isn’t it survival which makes Renée such an oddity? Here is a woman who is working to support herself and she found the ideal job because as a concierge it leaves her free time to pursue her passion which is intense reading. Had she been working as a sales clerk or an office, there would be no time to read but as a concierge she was hired mostly to watch who comes in and out of the building and pass on messages and packages to the tenants.
PatH, I looked up the cherry-plum translation, at first I thought it was a fruit but it is not, it is a shrub tree used for hedges. In French it is called Prunier Myrobalan and a certain Dr. Bach made an essence from the flower to ease tension called Fleur de Bach. On what page did you see cherry-plum? I would like to know in what context it was used.
Barbara, a wonderful post thank you.
MarjV, thank you for the link to tuiles aux amandes recipe. Do you intend to bake some? I would love to be invited. I am looking forward to your comments now that you have the book.
Gumtree, we are so used to fast action but this time I didn’t mind the philosophical ideas floating around. Isn’t it funny how the author intersperses them in the middle of some action taking place. It’s like a reflective pause in the down to earth activity.
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PatH - what a striking observation!!! You noticed the relevance of Barbery's revelation in the interview in the header -
"Writing is an intimate, almost secret, activity. I only follow with my pen my own sensations and desires."
Another hedgehog! Secretly writing her intimate thoughts - and then becoming somewhat annoyed at the idea that others are reading them! I love that!
Thank you for the lovely photo of your camellia, Pat - now could you take another draped in moss? ;) So, camellias are hardier - depending on the climate where they are growing, I guess. Still grasping at the concept of Madame Michel as the camellia - but am getting closer, I think.
I'm not so sure that the camellias in our story are necessarily white ones. In the link Barbara posted, we learn that camellias are native plants in Asia - Japan - Listen to this -
"The cultivars of Camellia japonica include 'Elegans' with large pink flowers which often have white streaks
Thanks for that site, Barbara! Are you Camellia japonicas also pink, Evelyn?
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HAPPY EASTER TO ALL OUR FRIENDS
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Have started the book so I'm behind you all.
The first few pages "Whosoever..." where Renee is talking about herself: big smile here. Love the fat old cat. Barbery sure has a sense of humor and fun there.
The child of 12 has clumped the limited world of adults she knows into
one understanding - life is alike goldfish in a bowl - and I take it to mean that because of their statements and conversation she understands life as adult to be aimless, a meaningless circle of acitivity. After all, where can a fish in a bowl go but round and round. And wait to eat when food is dropped in. perceives them. Do these adults she knows just wait
with their mouths open for something to happen other than what they are
trapped in? That must be how she
perceives them.
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PatH, I agree with your comment: "They are really both Barbery talking to herself," Not only that, sometimes we hear Barbery, the professor, lecturing.
ELOISE, Renee may see her behavior as a survival technique. I question whether it is really necessary, but then I have no personal experience in living in a position of service to the wealthy and powerful. She may be right.
I enjoyed the description of the scything scene from Anna Karenina. I can
remember occasional times like that, when one just goes with the flow without interference from the mind and everything falls into place with ease.
Oh, good! Paloma is thinking now more in terms of 'building' and the future. After meeting Mr. Uzo, she has found something that actually interests her and takes her out of her boredom. She even says, "...I implore fate to give me the chance to see beyond myself and truly meet someone." And by 'meet', I think she means to truly know and be known.
I was intrigued by Paloma's description of a hedgehog as 'elegant', as I know many of you have been. I did some research, and must admit I am finding them charming creatures. You might like to take a look at this: http://hedgehogcentral.com/introduction.shtml
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Somehow, I missed a whole bunch of posts last time, and I've been scrambling to catch up. Yes, the book moves slowly, but look how many ideas it has generated. I think Pat has hit the nail on the head: it is the author talking to herself, and we feel miffed that she is not paying more attention to US! But I lose that feeling when I see that she really opens herself up in places.
I think I understand the tea, but I don't like it. When someone is different from everyone else, not understood or appreciated, it is a natural defense to start feeling superior (as both our characters do) and then to start collecting outward marks of superiority (I (emphasized) drink tea, THEY drink coffee). It's just like the marks of superiority that the "upper class" accumulates (I talk this way, THEY (sniff) talk that way). To someone outside the frame, these marks always seem silly. They usually have SOME basis. In this case, tea in the East is associated with a meditation ceremony (the tea ceremony) while there is no corresponding higher association with coffee (I wonder what a coffee ceremony would be like. Maybe we coffee drinkers should invent one).
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/hdghogcvr.jpg) | "Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -
"Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1836659,00.html)
The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence from a world she finds meaningless. The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.
|
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27
April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129
April 13-16 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170
April 17-21 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238 ~ (Topics for April 17-21) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/weekfourhedgehogquestions.html)
April 22-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325
Final Thoughts | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/DavidTroodG460.jpg)
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For Your Consideration
April 13-16 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170
1. According to psychoanalysts, what does an involuntary act signify? What is it about the new tenant that overwhelms the concierge, causes her to shudder, while asking herself if she wants to be found out after years of hiding?
2. What made the tenant suspect that this lowly employee, the concierge, would know the source of her comment regarding unhappy families?
3. Why is Paloma so taken with Mr. Kakura Ozu? Is it believable that he would confide his suspicions in this child - that the concierge is not what she appears to be?
4. What had Paloma observed earlier that made her think Mme. Michel is not a "real" concierge? How can she see what no one else can see, "the refinement of the hedgehog" in the concierge? Does she exaggerate her elegance here?
5. What is it about M.Paul Nguyen who makes Renée forget to hide who she really is? Is there something straightforward about the Japanese that causes this response, not just Mr. Kakura Ozu?
6. Why does Manuela's description of the new sliding doors delight Renée? Is it the doors, or the conversation they are having about the doors?
7. How do Madame Michel and Paloma view the importance of proper grammar? Did you agree with Paloma's views on education as expressed in her debate with her French teacher, Madame Fine?
8. How does Paloma regard those who "know neither the enchantment nor the beauty of languages"? Does Madame Michel look at them in the same way?
9. Why does Madame Michel admire M. Kakuro for having only one of everything? What does this tell her about him? Do you have matching end tables, lamps?
10. Do you agree with the Japanese, that you can only savor a pleasure if you know it is ephemeral?
Relevant Links:
Online Dictionary (English) (http://www.thefreedictionary.com);
Glossary of posted Definitions (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/glossaryhedgehog.html)
French-English Dictionary (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt);
Hôtels particuliers (http://images.google.ca/images?hl=fr&q=hotels+particuliers+in+paris&btnG=Recherche+d%27images&gbv=2); An Interview with Muriel Barbery (http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/?author_number=1656&Barbery-interview);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Eloise (eloisede@sympatico.ca )
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Gum - I can't decide how Renée approaches her reading, how she selects what she will read next. Is she looking for entertainment - the Russian novels would seem to indicate this - but what is it that drives her to philosophy?
MarjV - so glad you got your book! Since you've been following along reading the posts, you are probably aware of some of the more difficult to grasp concepts -
I'm so happy that you are enjoying the book so far.
Thank you for the tuiles aux almandes recipe, by the way. When we read the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society, I made the potato peel pie and served it to my husband. Loaded with extra sour cream and chives of course - I'll just say that he will be much happier with the tuiles... Have you tried the recipe yet?
Her friend, the Portuguese cleaning woman brought tuiles wrapped in elegant carmine tissue to her friend, the concierge, treating her "like a queen" - It was as if she is paying homage with these offerings. I'm assuming she purchased these delicacies twice a week on her meager pay. Do you have friends who think this much of you?
Speaking of catching up, Eloise and I have talked and agreed to put off beginning the "Grammar chapters" until Monday morning. There are still some points worth addressing before moving on. The revised discussion schedule is in the heading now.
I know there is so much here, as Gum says it is worth reading carefully as future chapters will be based on these. Though we can't possibly address everything, let's bring that which has captured our attention to share.
Babi - yes! Paloma speaks of "building for the future"- this is really positive thinking, isn't it? I am so eager to hear your response to the last two entries in her PROFOUND THOUGHTS notebook - Number 7 and then Profound Thought No. 8 beginning on p.125 -
If you forget the future, you lose the present.
I was blown away by what she has to say in this one - had never thought about this in such a way before. Not so much at her feelings about her Mamie in the "home" - but beyond that...did it strike you as it did me? Are we preparing today for tomorrow? Please reread that last page!
I'd like to join Eloise in wishing you all a sunny dawn tomorrow!
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Sometimes I want to just sit still and think a long time over a simple chapter like when Renée reflects at the news of Pierre Arthens’ death on page 106.
I have no posthumous affection for Pierre Arthens, but I find myself wondering about like a lost soul, unable even to read. The camellia and the moss had offered me a brief but happy interlude from the coarseness of the world: now that is over, leaving no hope, and my heart is bitter, tormented by the darkness of all these unhappy events.
When of a sudden Old Japan intervenes from one of the apartment’s wafts a melody, clearly, joyfully distinct. Someone is playing a classical piece on the piano. Ah! Sweet, impromptu moment. Lifting the veil of melancholy….In a split second of eternity, everything is changed, transfigured. A few bars of music, rising from an unfamiliar piece, a touch of perfection in the flow of human dealings. She is moved by the sound of music that wafts a melody from on of the apartment above…. She leaned her head slowly to one side, reflect on the camellia on the moss of the temple, reflect on the cup of tea, while outside the wind is rustling the foliage, the forward rush of life is crystallized in a brilliant jewel of a moment that knows neither projects nor future, human destiny is rescued from the pale succession of days, glows with light at last and, surpassing time, warms my tranquil heart.
Do thoughts like these from Renée rescue her from her façade of coarseness to one of elegance? Is this the real Renée? I would have a very hard time to pretend to be someone I am not, how about you?
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Eloise and Joan - no , I haven't tried the tuiles recipe. Made easy fudge yesterday which I will share tomorrow with a friend. :) I might try it in the future.
I think - if your livelihood depends on it you can definitely pretend to be other than you are. I might, in my immediate thinking, be able to pretend for periods of time but not a whole persona - however, it's not a question of livelihood or survival at this time.
Plus: Renee doesn't need to do that with her friend that I can remember from reading your posts.
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I'm a very food-oriented person, so this post is going to be about food.
Eloise, the cherry plum has to be a fruit. It occurs in 4. Refusing the Fight. Renee is saying that Kant's texts are great works of literature because they pass the cherry plum test. If you bite into a cherry plum at last you understand everything.
She describes the test: "I place the fruit and the book on the...table, and as I pick up the former to taste it, I also start on the latter. If each resists the powerful onslaught of the other, if the cherry plum fails to make me doubt the text and if the text is unable to spoil the fruit, then I know I am in the presence of a worthwhile...undertaking, for there are very few works that have not dissolved...into the extraordinary succulence of the little golden plums." Little golden plums sounds like mirabelles to me. What is the French here?
Tuiles aux amandes: thanks for the link, Eloise, it was an ego boost for me, since, after reading the text first, I could understand most of what she was saying. She put sliced almonds in the batter, where my recipe calls for pulverized almonds. Any comments?
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Pat, This is the mirabelle.
http://www.thefrenchybee.com/hediard-fine-french-preserves-mirabelle-cherry-plum-french-jam-132oz-p-62.html
This is the French sentence from your quoted above.
Je dépose le fruit et le livre et, entamant le premier, me lance aussi dans l'autre. S'ils résistent mutuellement à leur assauts puissants, si la mirabelle échoue à me faire douter du texte et si le texte ne sait gâcher le fruit alors je sais que je suis en présense d'une entreprise d'importance et, disons-le, d'exception tant il est peu d'oeuvres qui ne se voient dissoutes, ridicules et fates, dans l'extraordinaire succulence des petites boules dorées.
What do you think about this part Pat? Renée is as passionate about the fruit as she is about the book and one cannot go without the other. I wonder how many she will have eaten while reading the book though?
Mary, no with her friend she can be natural. To bake tuiles would take too long, 4 at a time. There are too many of us here so it wouldn't be practical it would take all day.
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Éloïse, thank you for identifying the fruit and for printing the paragraph from the original text. In the English translation that paragraph begins with
"The cherry plum test is held in my kitchen. I place the fruit and the book... little golden plums."
Is the underlined sentence not in the original text, then?
The preceding paragraph in the translation starts with "The cherry plum test is extraordinary for its disarming clarity. It derives its power from a universal observation: When man bites into the fruit, at last he understands. What does he understand? Everything. ..." (A propos, is that a sly reference to the tree of knowledge in Paradise?)
What is the French term given for 'cherry plum'?
It's good to know we have until Monday before we go on. I have a few more Profound Thoughts to study again.
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Long ago, my father grew Cherry plums in the garden. In Australia they are the first variety to ripen and have a very short season - just a few weeks which coincides with the short season Renee experiences with them. Those grown here are not golden but a rich dark plum/cherry colour - they are small, about the size of a very, very large cherry - thus 'cherry plum' I guess. They are very juicy - as Renee says 'succulent' and I quite understand her description of the juice dribbling down her chin. They make an excellent jam.
If you click on the picture of the plums below you can see how juicy they are
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I just went to google and here is wikipedia on cherry plums
Cherry Plum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_plum)
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Forgive my ignorance my friends, I never ate or recognized cherry plums so I looked in Wiki and the translation is 'myrobalan'. It grows in warmer climate than up here around Montreal. When I see them at the farmer's market they sell it at an exorbitant price I never bought any. Cherry plum is in fact Mirabelle as Pat explained, I guess a deformation of the word Myrobalan. Try to say that fast and over the years it sounded like Mirabelle. Cute.
Yes Traude that sentence is in "The cherry plum test is held in my kitchen". but Pat had not included it.
Laura, just to come back a little, Renée talks to her cat as a Professor of Philosophy, so Renée is the Professor ??? when she is not the concierge. Is that how you read it?
Gumtree, indeed they look delicious.
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Do you really think Manuela bought those expensive things, JOANP. Since they were so nicely wrapped, you may be right. I have been assuming they were offerings or leftovers from places where she worked.
Oops, I just read the post where it was suggested we wait until Monday
to begin on "Grammar". Since it is now Sunday, may I please proceed?
I've written my notes/post on my notepad already, and I don't want to lose them or make a special folder for them.
"Art is life, playing to other rhythms." I'd love to hear some of your comments about this line. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. It sounds good, but what does she mean by it?
"...you can tell if you've said, or read, or written a fine sentence. You can recognize a well-turned phrase or an elegant style."
This brought back a memory to me. When I was a freshman in college, I worked part-time in the college library. Another student worker and I got to talking, and she was saying that she knew all the rules of grammar. (I don't recall how we came on that subject.) I confessed that I had not memorized all the rules, but I knew what was right and what was wrong, probably from all the good literature I had read.
She got a little huffy, and said that wasn't possible, and went on to announce that the entrance exams paced her in the top 10% of students in English.
Well, I shoud have kept my mouth shut, but I couldn't resist. I replied,
"That's nice. I'm in the top 2% myself." Well, she practically called me a
liar. This time, tho', I controlled my tongue, simply stared at her, shrugged
and walked away. Why should I rain on her parade? (Yes, I know, very trite phrase. ;))
Things are moving along much more smoothly now, and we're getting into the 'story'. I'm terribly curious to see Mr. Uzo's apartment myself.
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Eloise asked, “Laura, just to come back a little, Renée talks to her cat as a Professor of Philosophy, so Renée is the Professor when she is not the concierge. Is that how you read it?”
I am not sure where the passage is that you refer to, but I think Renee talks to the cat because she doesn’t have a person there at the moment she wants to talk. I wonder if Renee ever wanted to be a teacher/professor? I do like how both Renee and Paloma used their cats as examples in their thoughts and examples, Renee with phenomenology and Paloma with movement.
I noted the idea of the game go at the end of profound thought no. 7 --- “that in order to win, you must live, but you must allow the other player to live.” It reminds me of the economic pie analogy, where everyone can have a “piece of the pie” because the pie will keep getting bigger if everyone works with each other instead of against each other.
As for what will finally bring Renee and Paloma together, I think it will have to be an outside force of some kind, something beyond their control. Time to find out…
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After reading the article on Hedgehogs as pets I understand them better than before. Even though they are cute, charming and can be litter trained I find it hard to see them as elegant. Yes, I know their elegance is supposed to be hidden behind their prickly exterior but nevertheless it is a metapJhor that doesn't quite make it for me.
However the main problem I am having is the fact that I want to be swept up by the charaters and/or the action when reading a novel. I don't want to contemplate the author on every other page.
These two main characters, Paloma and Renee, seem to be the author at two different stages of life-as an alienated adolescent and as a middle aged philosopher hiding behind the skirts of a concierge.
Looking for hope that things will pick up I read all the quotes on the covers of the book, all the excerpts quoted from the newspaper reviews and everything on the back and inside front cover.All the praise given the book gives me hope that the philosophical musings will lessen as the action heats up (Or at least reaches luke warm status).
The Deux ex machina has arrived in the form of "a wealthy Japanese man".(I quote the cover of the book). The quote continues, "He befriends Paloma and is able to see through Renees time worn disguise" etc.
Since this info is on everyones cover I hope I am not giving anything away. I continue to follow all your enthusiasms and have learned about cherryplum jam and camellias. My neighbors camellias are pink and red and last much longer than a day or two. She has no moss for them to fall upon. I have moss in my back yard but no camellias. Life is not perfect.
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I vaguely remember reading about the Cherry Plum festival in the Lorraine area of France and here is some information - I cannot find it now but there is a small town that has a month long festival where everyone in the town dresses in old native costumes and the site had all these arts and crafts activities for moms living in the area to do with their children.
There is a big August Festival for the fruit in Metz.
The second web page you have to scroll down and the blog really explains someone's reaction to these sweet wonders along with a photo of a cluster in a tree.
http://tiny.cc/h6EAS
http://www.whytraveltofrance.com/2006/08/
When I make tuiles aux almandes I use an old wooden rolling pin as a form so that while they are warm from the oven I drape them over the rolling pin to give them the Tuille shape - tile like the tiles of a roof, shape.
Here is a wonderful site in French showing how to make Tuiles aux almandes
http://scally.typepad.com/cest_moi_qui_lai_fait/2008/05/tuiles-aux-aman.html
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Bonjour mes amies! Mouth watering posts, yesterday! MarjV, I am hoping you gave some thought to the packaging of the easy fudge you brought to your friend yesterday! :D
You were all quite busy understanding the autodidact's approach to reading yesterday - the book must be able to hold her attention over the cherry plum. Really, it is droll, don't you think? What would your test be? I can't decide whether it would be fine chocolate, like this bunny left under my pillow yesterday - or no, wait - an unsolved Sudoku vying for my attention would be a real test...
Here's a question for you - how would this book fare in your kitchen test?
Babi- still smiling at your exchange with the braggart who knew all rules of grammar! You and Renee would enjoy one another's company, I just know it! Yes, I think the story is finally picking up- now that we have laid the groundwork. (I'm still hoping that someone will comment on Paloma's Profound Thought No.8 on p125 - remember you are free to comment on previous chapters, even if we have moved on...)
Jude, I just had to go look up "Deus ex machina" before going any further in the Grammar chapters this morning
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from Random House -
Deus ex machina–noun
1. (in ancient Greek and Roman drama) a god introduced into a play to resolve the entanglements of the plot.
2. any artificial or improbable device resolving the difficulties of a plot.
How about that - M. Kakuro Ozu - not only a "device resolving the difficulties of the plot - but a god - introduced to get things going! He sure does emanate some god-like qualities, don't you think?
You've noted the Japanese influence in these chapters, and the fact that the author lives in Kyoto, Japan with her husband. At first I was under the impression that he was Japanese, but Eloise pointed out that he is not Japanese at all - Stephane is French - a French philosopher, if I remember correctly. I'm wondering what it is about the Japanese approach to life that draws these two philosophes - and whether it is common for philosophers, philosophers in general, to arrive at the superiority of the Japanese way of thinking. Just musing out loud here in sunny Arlington this morning....
Wasn't that an earth-moving moment for our concierge - her first meeting with the new tenant? Almost like love at first sight. Something happened. Do you believe in love at first sight?
I think the action we have all been waiting for has just begun!
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I'm having trouble with 'elegance', too, JUDE. Part of the problem is that
I am accustomed to thinking of elegance in terms of graceful women of fashion.
Elegance is style and dignity in mind and taste, as well. And an ingenious idea
is also 'elegant', as in "an elegant solution". Maybe Paloma gets her 'elegant
hedgehog' image from the idea of herself as an elegant mind hiding behind bristles. Renee is doing much the same.
My neighbors camellias are pink and red and last much longer than a day or two. She has no moss for them to fall upon. I have moss in my back yard but no camellias. Life is not perfect.
That gave me a smile, JUDE.
On the first meeting of Mr. Uzo and Renee, I can't say that 'love at first sight'
popped into my head, JOAN. Renee was startled and alarmed to realize that Mr. Uzo was not deceived by her concierge camouflage. Her impulse was that of the rabbit or fox, to retreat deeply into her den. Uzo, though, really intrigues me. Here is a person who is deeply interested in other people. I wonder if he is really the film-maker? It would take someone with deep insight into others to make the kind of films Renee has described.
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The Josses live in 4000 square feet? My, that is a large apartment Joan P. But is it only the square footage that determines if a family can take in their aged parents? Obviously not and in the past few decades it is the tendency to send old folks to retirement homes for another decade even if they are still well enough. I often think about that too.
I am glad we talked about the Cherry Plum, I will not ignore them at the market any more after learning about them Pat. Thank you. I don’t know when I will try baking tuiles because as you can’t make more than 4 at a time. I only know that each patisserie française is heavenly when I taste them in France, they don’t eat those except for a special occasion I was told.
What was that Profound thought you wanted to comment on Traude?
Babi before we talk about grammar I must tell you that I don’t remember any of it, in French or in English. Everything I learned was after I left school and I don’t dare say when that was.
You are the only woman I know who has ever made some tuiles Barbara, even my sister who is an accomplished French cook. I can just imagine what they taste though. Lots of butter plus almonds, what better combination but I don’t know if I would prefer pulverized or sliced almonds Pat.
I will be doing a lot more cooking that before in a few weeks because the kitchen downstairs where my daughter and family live will be torn apart and renovated, all cupboards will be taken down, ceramic tiles removed, a new paint job etc. etc. I might try to some tuiles, but I won’t put them to cool on a rolling, that will be much easier to do.
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I like the Renee . She is totally an individual. And her friend. I had a neighbor quite like Renee. And I always enjoyed our coffee chats. She was totally other than the "hillbilly" character she and her family portrayed to the nieghborhood. I missed her when they moved back down to the South.
I must admit to almost rolling on the floor over the chapter of "Bacon for the Cocker Spaniel". Just deliciously funny. Here we have the dogs at their very basic. Here we have the 2 women at their very snobbish , life is something other than reality, selves.
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Eloise, it was not so much the reasons Paloma's "Mamie" went to live in the retirement home (my grands call me "Meanma" - I liked this touch - giving her a real grandma name) - but the fact that like so many people, she spent her last days bitter and unhappy living in such a place. Actually, her place was quite lovely, it just wasn't where she thought she'd end up.
Paloma remembers that she had decided to build - to look for the positive...it was difficult during this visit though - - she couldn't find anything good to say about the place. where's the joy, she asks. Their final hours are spent in boredom and bitterness, endlessly revisiting memories. This whole passage was difficult for me to read, but the message struck me and I think it is worth taking the time to talk about it -
She goes on with her observation that adults that surround her are so stressed out, hurrying about, , meeting deadlines, not thinking about tomorrow...
"But if you dread tomorrow, it's because you don't know how to build the present and when you don't know how to build the present, you tell yourself you can deal with it tomorrow, and its a lost cause anyway because tomorrow always ends up becoming today, don't you see?
...we have to live with the certainty that we will get old and that it won't look nice or be good or feel happy. ... tell ourselves that it's now that matters, now, at any price, using all our strength. ...we have to surpass ourselves every day, make every day undying.
That's what the future is for: to build the present with real plans ..."
Never mind that this doesn't sound like an observation a 12 year old would make - it is still a profound thought, don't you agree? (Profound thought No.8.) It sure had an impact on me. I understand what is being said...the need to prepare for the formidable days that lie ahead as we lose much of what we have today. The author seems to be saying that you can't really prepare for those days - but you can make each day in the present count - because the present has a way of becoming tomorrow before know it.
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Éloïse, I have been pondering several things. One was Mme Michel's reaction to the news that M. Arthens is dying.
How she softens hearaing the polite request by the doctor, unusual as it is. Such a simple gesture, at long last a ray of sunshine.
The other hopeful sign is Mme Michel's realization that "my penchant for lower forms of culture does not necessarily represent the indelible mark of my lowly origins ..." in Chapter 9 Red October, toward the end "As I was saying".
Eureka! Confidence is emerging! The inferiority complex is not as deep-seated as it seemed. Truly a caesura!
JoanP, re Question # 3.
Naturally Paloma is delighted to have the chance to hear the correct pronunciation of a simple salutation in Japanese, something her teacher could not provide, as she complained to us. With any foreign language, total immersion à la Berlitz method is unsurpassed IMHO. In this country we discount the value of foreign languages, unfortunate though it is.
It is even sadder that people speak their own language often carelessly and incorrectly. Some of what comes out of people's mouths on TV (e.g. in Judge shows) is horrible.
So I wholeheartedly agree with the comments concerning language, the power of words, their proper use, and the value of grammar and orthography. When I read those sections for the first time I wanted to stand up and cheer. Sadly, >:( I had no chance: in our oral discussion we never got that far. I may be forgiven for speaking with such vehemence and passion, but this, after all, is my métier, my chosen profession, and was my livelihood. One has to be accurate doing that kind of work, for obvious reasons.
Also, Éloïse, I still would LOVE to know what French words the author used for "cherry plum" . I checked my French-English Larousse and also the all-French Le Petit Larousse. Please, Éloïse, what ARE the words in French?
I was wondering, is there a discernible difference between Paloma's Profound Thoughts and the successive entries in Journal about the Movement of the World?
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I am sorry that I wasn't clear about that Traude.
Also, Éloïse, I still would LOVE to know what French words the author used for "cherry plum" . I checked my French-English Larousse and also the all-French Le Petit Larousse. Please, Éloïse, what ARE the words in French?
Cherry plum in the French version is Mirabelle
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ELOISE, I worked for some years as a nursing home inspector for the State of Texas. Living like that would make me miserable, but there are individuals who
take to it quite well. Mostly, these seem to be people who like other people around them, and were lonely and somewhat isolated living alone.
We had my grandmother living with us for a while, but we had three noisy, active kids and much as she loved us all, she needed more quiet. It is so very
much a individual thing, where and how one would prefer to live.
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Good morning! Great questions...let's keep them in mind as we read future chapters. Do you feel a breath of fresh air with the arrival of M. Ozu? Babi, I looked in Netflix for the Ozu films so beloved by our concierge - and did find them in French. I am not sure about the director's first name - didn't think it was Kakura though...It seemed longer. It is quite a coincidence to see the same name though - there must be reason for it - unless Ozu is a common Japanese name - like Smith or something.
Renée certainly sized him up quickly, didn't she? Did you list the characteristics she noticed at first glance?
Traudee asks - if there is "a discernible difference between Paloma's Profound Thoughts and the successive entries in Journal about the Movement of the World?" What do you think? Have you noticed yet? Are you noticing a more positive attitude in her entries - in either notebook, since she's begun to keep them? I had been thinking that once she met up with Madame Michel, she would have a positive influence on the girl that would dissuade her from her suicidal plan. But now, I'm wondering if she isn't finding her way...herself. What do you think? Improvement in her attitude, or no?
Traudee brings up important points on the use of proper grammar - to tell the truth, I found myself more interested in Paloma's lecture to her teacher regarding the way in which grammar is taught. The way in which anything is presented to impressionable adolescents, actually. Paloma blew her cover in that exchange, didn't she? She will be closely watched in her classroom performance from now on.
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I liked this section of reading much better than the previous section --- more “action” and an interesting new character.
I didn’t think love at first sight when Renee met Monsieur Ozu. I think Paloma describes very accurately what attracts both she and Renee to Monsieur Ozu on page 169, just at the end of this section of reading:
This is the first time I have met someone who cares about me when he is talking: he’s not looking for approval or disagreement, he looks at me as if he to say, “Who are you? Do you want to talk to me? How nice it is to be here with you!” [Talk about grammar, I think there is an error in that sentence with “as if he to say”]
I am especially enjoying how Monsieur Ozu is tantalizing Renee with references to Tolstoy, starting on page 135 with his mention of “Every unhappy family is unhappy is unhappy in its own way.” I can’t wait to read about Renee’s reaction when she receives a copy of Anna Karenina from Monsieur Ozu!
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Right, Laura, true. That error escaped the attention of the editor (if there was one).
During my first reading I stumbled on another error, an idiomatic term used often in English: I couldn't care less,
which us correct.
Sometimes we also hear the form of it "I could care less" which doesn't mean the same thing at all and is wrong.
Both the correct and the incorrect phrase appear in the book - and 'm trying to find it. That too has to be laid at the translator's doorstep.
Errands to run back later.
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This is just the time to talk about Grammar, isn't it? I'm struck by the diffierence in Paloma's acceptance of poor grammar usage - compared to the way the concierge feels about those who are careless with the rules...
I definitely would not fault the author of the book - in either the error Laura sites, or the inconsistancy Traudee points out - the author is at the mercy of both the translator and the editor, once the book leaves her hands. Traudee, perhaps you have noted the page numbers on which you noted the "care less/not care less" inconsistancies - and then Eloise might look in the French version to see what the author actually did say...I'm willing to bet there is no "inconsistancy" - as Traudee noted.
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JoanP, I'm sure it's the same term in both instances, the fault is the translator's.
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The French has all the necessary words, but we notice that Paloma in the French version is often using teenage contemporary jargon that I find quite amusing and refreshing. I often compare both versions and the translator went all out to find an equivalent to the disconcerting French narration and I think she did very well considering the challenge.
This is the first time I have met someone who cares about me when he is talking: he’s not looking for approval or disagreement, he looks at me as if he to say, “Who are you? Do you want to talk to me? How nice it is to be here with you.
The French version says:
C'est la première fois que je rencontre quelqu'un qui se soucie de moi quand il me parle: il ne guette pas l'approbation ou le désaccord, il me regarde avec l'air de dire,: "Qui es-tu? Veux-tu parler avec moi? Comme j'ai plaisir à être avec toi.
I also noticed that in French there also seems to be a word missing between "j'ai" and "plaisir" where there should be a "du" Comme j'ai du plaisir à être avec toi". but I am not about to correct anything Barbery writes.
I have noticed several such typos or something or other.
In "he looks at me as if he to say" The word "he" should have been deleted I think.
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He looks at me as if he to say
Perhaps we could just blame the proof reader :D
I have been thinking about the word 'Elegance' and what it relates to in our two hedgehogs. In Renee I am beginning to think that it is the quality of her mind that is elegant as she has shown us time and again with her private ruminations. Sadly her mind is hidden in her everyday dealings with her 'betters' . There is also elegance in the sense of her intrinsic worth as a human being which only Manuela and now perhaps Mr Ozu, can see. That's not quite what I mean to say but I'll work on it.
I don't think it was 'love at first sight' at Mr Ozu and Renee's first meeting but rather the recognition of a kindred spirit. Renee had to bolt to her den to deal with the feelings it aroused, after all, it was the first time she had experienced such emotion.
With the Profound Thought No 8 - If you forget the future you lose the present young Paloma begins to grow up. When she sees her grandmother in the home she glimpses and begins to understand the fact of human mortality - her own included. She says:
...tell ourselves that it's now that matters: to build something, now, at any price, using all our strength. Always remember that there's an old people's home waiting somewhere and so we have to surpass ourselves every day, make every day undying. climb our own personal Everest and do it in such a way that every step is a little bit of eternity.
What she doesn't yet understand is that those around her, her parents and Colombe, in their own way, are attempting to build their present for the future. Isn't it what we all try to do?
Now that her Grandmother has moved to the nursing home I'm wondering where Paloma will go to take the sleeping pills after she sets fire to the apartment. Or did I miss something?
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Oh! Traude, when you find the page I will look it up but don't forget I am no authority on the matter and usually I just pass over these things because people have to forgive me my own mistakes, I can't be one to find fault.
Gumtree, would you think that Renée is quite satisfied with her own life in private behind the doors of her loge with her cat, her books and her friend Manuela that everything else doesn't matter that much to her?
There is also elegance in the sense of her intrinsic worth as a human being which only Manuela and now perhaps Mr Ozu, can see.
Good point
Now that her Grandmother has moved to the nursing home I'm wondering where Paloma will go to take the sleeping pills after she sets fire to the apartment. Or did I miss something?
No you didn't miss anything, but as it was said before, her plans for suicide were not that well defined were they? Are those plans slowly starting to fade away I wonder?
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Well, we need someone like Mr. Ozu to move the plot along. But the author overdoes it by a fair bit. A Japanese man who shares Renee's love of Russian literature and Dutch still-lives (lifes?) Come on! There are beautiful creations all over the world. It's as if the author is saying that only those who share her particular tastes are worthy to be kindred spirits. This is that streak of snobbishness that has bothered us throughout.
None-the-less, I am enjoying the book tremendously.
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That's what is was, as Gum said, the instinctive realization that here was a kindred soul, another admirer of Tolstoy, even!
Mr. Ozu has both Mme Michel and Paloma pegged. He could be seen almost as unifying force in a house where the residents had exhibited little interest before in what went on beyond their own closed doors. They are curious and abuzz over he radical transformation of Mr. Uzo's apartment. There is some much needed levity, too, thank goodness. (Mr. Ozu and Paloma conveniently alone in a stopped elevator is a little too pat, but we take it, gladly.)
JoanP, you asked : Was Mme. Michel happy in her loge and isolation?
I don't think so. How could she? What good were the insights she had gained from all this voracious, indiscriminate reading if she couldn't 'compare notes' about them with anyone (until now)?
'Resigned' may be the better word.
But changes are a-coming ! Just in time. The edifice of the story is erected on fragile premises not every reader is willing to swallow wholesale.
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Oh my, I'm walking around with so many thoughts in my head - my husband keeps asking me if I'm feeling all right. How do I tell him that I'm thinking about the meaning of love at first sight? I have to ask, did it ever happen to you? Do you think it is possible? It happened to me only once - and I must admit, I never got over it. Laura, Gum, Babi, you see Renée's response to Mr. Ozu as "a recognition of a kindred spirit," - "the realization that he sees through her camouflage" - and " the first person who cares about me when he is talking." Don't you think this is a powerful response to someone you have just met? Someone who knows you instantly, who cares about you, someone with whom you "click" - a kindred spirit. If it's not love, what do you call it? The start of a beautiful friendship?
You might not have noticed the French translation Eloise posted - "Qui es-tu? Veux-tu parler avec moi? Comme j'ai plaisir à être avec toi. - This is the personal form of "you" - used only among close friends, family members, etc. Who are you? Do you want to speak with me? How happy I am to be with you... He seems to have the same effect on Paloma - is this how he comes on to everyone, or just those with whom he feels a special rapport?
I'm not sure the gentleman is as affected as is the concierge, however. But for this lonely woman, hiding her true self from the world all these years, well, I think the earth has moved...
JoanK - I'm puzzling over these coincidences too - the author is a highly intelligent philosopher, careful with her words and expression...Perhaps she and her husband discovered their love for Russian novels, shared tastes in Art, music, etc...and so this seems plausible to her. What is M. Ozu's background, his education - do we know that yet? I'm thinking he is highly educated, and continues to pursue that which interests him now. " Renée as we know, has been a scholar of Art, literature and music...film, all of these years. Maybe it's not so strange that the two have such similar tastes, with such broad experience.
I have other things buzzing in my head too - but will sleep on them...
Among them - Gum's question regarding the way we are all preparing for the future today. (Are we?) Babi's question on the meaning of - 'Art is life, playing to other rhythms.' Whether Paloma is stll gathering sleeping pills from Maman's stash, or is she moving away from her plan to burn down the building and go to grandmamans home to swallow the pills. (For some reason I think this is her maternal grandmother's place, Gum.) Oh and then there's the "elegance" question - is Paloma an elegant hedgehog - or is this whole thing about the elegance of the concierge...
Maybe I'll dream some answers to some of your questions...
Night, all!
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STRAUDE, that phrase "I could care less" has always annoyed me, too. It is the
opposite of what was intended, and it sets my teeth on edge every time I hear it.
I thought the same thing, GUM, about elegance.
I don't know, JOANK. Our concierge has lived there for many years without finding a soul who even recognized her as a person, much less had any curiosity about her. Can it be so impossible that one person eventually shows up who loves russian classics and art. I'm sure still-lifes are not all he has in that apartment.
Is it snobbishness we are seeing, or is it self-protecting defensiveness?
It is wonderful the difference Mr. Uzo is making in Paloma’s life. “…he looks at me as if to say, “Who are you? Do you want to talk to me? How nice it is to be here with you.” Mr. Uzo has “”this attitude that gives the other person the impression of really being there.” This is a first for Paloma.
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Re: the Question_"According to Psychanalyst what does an involuntary act signify?"
First and foremost let me explain, for anyone who doesn't understand what a Psychoanalyst is and does.
1:He or she is Not a Psychiatrist. A Psychiatrist is a medical Doctor specializing in the study of Brain Disorders and Mental Illness. He can dispense medications, meet with patients for therapy or just to see how the medication is affecting them. There are also Child Psychiatrists who are Medical Doctors specializing in Childhood disorders such as Autism or Attention Deficit Disorders.
Freud was a Medical Doctor specializing in Neurology.
2) He or she is not a Psychotherapist or a Psychologist. These Professions demand that the person pass an oral and written Exam in order to get a LICENSE to practice. If they do something that goes against the exacting rules of their profession their Board will, after a trial, take away their license to practice.
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Several of you have mentioned the coincidences upon which the books built, something I hadn’t noticed or thought about. After reading your thoughts, I specifically thought about Monsieur Ozu being able to read both Renee and Paloma. I don’t find this coincidental or unbelievable. I think Monsieur Ozu is one of the few people to look at and truly see both Renee and Paloma. We have talked abut how both were isolated and ignored, and how they noticed when he noticed them. I think Monsieur Ozu is a person who can read people, and takes the time to do so. I am looking forward to seeing more of his interaction with both Renee and Paloma. Oh, and by the way, when are Renee and Paloma going to interact?!?! LOL!
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This is a continuation of the previous post which somehow ended all of a sudden. Please read that post before you begin this one.
What is a Psychoanalyst?
He or she goes to a Psychoanalytic Institute which is not attached to a University but which is an entity unto itself. The candidate may or may not have a Bachelors or a Masters or a Doctoral degree. If the person is accepted as a Candidate to be a Psychoanalyst he will have an established Psychoanalyst as his mentor and under their direction will see patients for three to five years and keep deep and extensive notes which will be perused weekly by their mentor. If they succeed they can open their own office.
Psychoanalysts see their patients for three to five times a week for 50 minutes at a high fee. By calling the people who attend these sessions 'patients' and not 'clients' they maintain a pseudo medical air.
As in any profession or class 50% of the people are below average and the lowest 10% may be barely passable.
The portrait that Burbery paints is of a person of the lowest possible level. Quite unfair.
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I really don't know why or how my posts got so messed up. The space for the first post ended all of a sudden. I went back and thought I saw it posted and so I continued the post as a separate entity . Now I went back and found only Part 2 of the post- How frustrating !
The posts were describing the wide differences between a Psychoanalyst, a Psychiatrist and a Psychologist. Basically the post was finding fault with Burbery's very disparaging and unusual description of the Mental Health profession.
In the United States today ther are very few Psychoanalysts since theirs is NOT a University Degree and there is no State Board monitoring their work.
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Oh, the mystery is solved. Laura's post came in between my two first posts. so please don't skip Laura's post but do read my now four posts in the order they were written.
Joan K. and Eloise -Why has the space for REPLY been cut short?
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Well, I'm not JoanK - and don't have the answer, as I've not seen that before, Jude. I have seen the post box disappear forever, however...which is more frustrating, you will have to agree. I have also seen the post box appear shorter...but could keep on typing and watched it expand.
Let's put it in the "MYSTERY" category - and just be happy that nothing you posted is lost.
I had a difficult time with the word "Psychoanalyst" - (why isn't it psychoanalist?) I remember that it was the psychoanalysts who described the significance of Madame Michel's involuntary shudder upon meeting with M. Ozu.
Perhaps you have read on into the Summer Rain chapters , Jude ? We'll save the discussion of those chapters for Friday to get a closer look at the "doctors" you describe. I think we need to look at the matter in context - on Friday. You mention that there are very few few Psychoanalysts in the US today. Perhaps it is different in France? Perhaps we will find that Barbery is not finding fault with the entire profession, but with those the elite find fashionable - for whatever reason.
I think it is interesting to note Muriel Barbery's husband's background, which Eloise was kind enough to translate from the French -
Institut d’Etudes Politiques de Paris (Sciences-Po) (1992)
Licence et Maîtrise de Philosophie à l’Université Paris I Sorbonne (1993-1994)
Licence et Maîtrise de Psychologie clinique et pathologique à l’Université de Caen (1999-2000)
DEA de Psychopathologie fondamentale et Psychanalyse à l’Université Paris VII, associé à un stage au CMPS de Bayeux (2001). Statut de psychologue garanti par le numéro Adeli 14930001-4
Formation certifiée à l'EMDR auprès de l'Institut EMDR France (2004-2005)
DU Stress Trauma et Pathologies, Université Paris VI, Faculté de Médecine Pitié-Salpêtrière (2005-2006
Translation -
Paris Institute of Political Science (1992)
Licence and Masters (degree) of Philosophy from the Paris University Sorbonne (1993-1994)
Licence and Masters (degree) of Clinical Psychology and Pathology from the Caen Univesity (1999-2000)
DEA (?) of Fundamental Psychopathology and Psychoanalysis of the Paris University, Associate in Training at CMPS of Bayeux. (2001) Status of Psychologist guarenteed by the number Adeli 14930001-4.
Certified Formation at the EMDR Institute of France (2004-2005)
DU Stress Trauma and Pathologies, University of Paris VI, Faculty of Medicine Pitié Salpêtrière. (2005-2006)
I think it's save to assume that the author is aware of the differences - and is describing one of those "doctors" maman would find fashionable, but not necessarily effective. Let's wait until Friday. Thank you for clearing up the matter, Jude - I'm sure it will make the episode in Summer Rain more understandable!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/hdghogcvr.jpg) | "Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -
"Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1836659,00.html)
The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence from a world she finds meaningless. The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27
April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129
April 13-16 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170
April 17-21 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238
April 22-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325
Final Thoughts | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/DavidTroodG460.jpg)
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For Your Consideration
April 17-21 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238
1. Why does Mr Ozu treat Madame Michel with more consideration and interest than other tenants in the building? Why does his interest make her feel naked? If she didn't want to dine with him, why do you think she accepted?
2. Why do you think Tolstoy has left such an impression on Renée? Is it the romance? Do they have a similar world view? Is this what interests the new tenant?
3. "If you have but one friend, make sure you choose her well." Were you surprised about the way Manuela took over the preparations for the "date"? Would Renée have managed this without her?
4. Do you find that Paloma's reaction to the school choir reveals a different side to her character that wasn’t apparent before? What is it about the choir that overcomes her? How is this a worthy entry for her Movement notebook?
5. Following her makeover, why does Renée worry that she looks like "a real lady"? Why does she consider it "blasphemous" to enter his apartment? How does M. Ozu react to her new look? To her obvious uneasiness?
6. What more do we learn of Paloma's schoolmates in this chapter? Were you surprised to learn that she has a best friend? Do you see any similarities between the two narrators' close friends, Marguerite and Manuela?
7. What is in Mr Ozu’s personality that makes him the first person to break through Renée’s hard shell? What effect does he have on Paloma? Do you detect a glimmer of hope for her future?
8. What is the purpose of Art, as described here? Can you compare the effect of her school choir on Paloma and Renée's response to Pieter Claesz's still life?
9. What shared tastes were revealed during the rather humorous, embarrassing bathroom episode? Do you detect a blossoming friendship - or romance, even? Has a "summer rain" revived our concierge?
10. Did you find Paloma's entry in Profound Thought #13 rather surprising, considering the disturbing revelation during the meeting with her mother's psychoanalyst?
Relevant Links:
Online Dictionary (English) (http://www.thefreedictionary.com);
Glossary of posted Definitions (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/glossaryhedgehog.html)
French-English Dictionary (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt);
Hôtels particuliers (http://images.google.ca/images?hl=fr&q=hotels+particuliers+in+paris&btnG=Recherche+d%27images&gbv=2); An Interview with Muriel Barbery (http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/?author_number=1656&Barbery-interview);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Eloise (eloisede@sympatico.ca )
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Laura - you must admit we are getting closer to a meeting. Wouldn't it be amazing though, if we get through the whole book without their meeting? M. Ozu has Paloma spying on Mme. Michel. Surely they will meet soon! Perhaps Paloma will get caught in the act.
Even if M. Ozu has the power to read people, don't you think he went a bit far in asking the 12 year old to spy on the concierge? I mean, really!
How unusual is it for those interested in the Arts - Music, Literature and Art - to discover they have similar tastes? I'm willing to overlook the coincidences here... BUT I think the really unusual thing is for a lowly concierge -with all the appearances of a peasant background - to share these interests! Actually, it is more than the appearance of a peasant - that actually was her background. And to think accomplished all this with no education - just the library and native curiosity! M. Ozu is fascinated. I am too.
Are you enjoying Manuela's appreciation for M. Ozo's renovations in the new apartment?
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My goodness! There's a lot to digest in the short measured time left to us: Melanie Klein, for example, and the Coué method in addition to Freud, the master himself.
In our book, in the section On Grammar and its Chapter 1. titled Infinitesimal, THERE's
the big moment when Mme Michel comes face to face with the new tenant, introduced by Mme. Rosen. There's some casual exchange and, for an infinitesimal nanosecond Mme Michel's eyes meet those of Mr. Ozu, their eyes joined in linguistic solidarity, both "shuddering", over Mme. Rosen's misuse of 'bring' versus 'take'.
Is this nanosecond of linguistic solidarity then "love at first sight"? ??
Singly? Mutually? How can we know?
Éloïse , merci. I'm happy to relax regarding the cherry plums :) :)
Ah, but now I'm looking for the passage with the "Qui es-tu?" etc.
Where is it?
I've scanned the text without luck, so far. Is it in one of Paloma's Profound Thoughts, and if so, which one?
Surely, from the phrasing it seems that the words are not actually being SAID to anyone, just THOUGHT.
Am I mistaken?
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Our concierge can’t surely be different from other women who have a secret hero to dream about and low and behold hers arrives to take up residence in her building. Well Joan in her case I do believe as you say that it must be love at first sight. But she doesn’t know that because she has never experienced love before in her life. No wonder she felt the earth shatter
I didn’t remember that Anna Karénine started with All happy families are alike and every family is unhappy in its own way. Intelligence rests on a great memory I once heard. Oh! well! I still love Tolstoy with his grand Russian epics.
Traude, the French version page numbers doesn’t match the English one and if I can I will look up the pages you mention. Mr. Ozu was thinking of it, not actually saying it. Soit-dit-en-passant (BTW), we don’t say ‘tu’ to someone we just meet, first we say ‘vous’ especially to people of authority but say ‘tu’ to children. Now that you mention it Joan, It is very unusual for Mr. Ozu to think of saying ‘tu’ to Madame Michel. Maybe it’s a Japanese custom, but certainly not a French one.
titled Infinitesimal, THERE's
the big moment when Mme Michel comes face to face with the new tenant, introduced by Mme. Rosen. There's some casual exchange and, for an infinitesimal nanosecond Mme Michel's eyes meet those of Mr. Ozu, their eyes joined in linguistic solidarity, both "shuddering", over Mme. Rosen's misuse of 'bring' versus 'take'
.
In French Traude it’s even more of a put down. Mme Rosen who is resenting Renée’s presence in front of Mr Ozu summons her to clean up the rug in front of the Arthens door by saying: Pouvez-vous pallier à ça? That is virtually untranslatable so the translator had to use ‘bring’ and ‘take’. Oh! I love all these goings on immensely and let myself have a good laugh. I never read anything like that before.
Thank you JudeS for the exact definition of Psychoanalist and Psychiatrist, that clarifies that very important question that they are not one and same profession. We often hear that someone is going to a Psy without mentioning the whole word and that is wrong in my opinion.
Now the Met is presenting something on PBS and I want to watch that.
Thank you everyone for your wonderful posts, they enlighten the discussion
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Pouvez-vous pallier à ça
Oh, but Eloise, you are having more fun than the rest of us, comparing the translations! I can't believe the translator just made up the "bring/take" exchange because the French was "untranslatable" - I find that just amazing! I just had to try to translate Madame Rosen's pithiatic prattling. (Now there's a new vocabulary word for me. From the French - it refers to an unusual form of hysteria.)
Mrs. Rosen demeans the concierge - using the euphemism - telling her to "mitigate" the mess on the doormat and get on with her work. Are we to understand that it was the misuse of give and take that caused the flinching and their eyes to meet? The translator made that all up?
Actually, the pronounced "involuntary shudder did not occur at that point - but a moment later when M.Ozu finished the first line of Anna Karenina. I was interested in her comment following that - "I suppose this means I want to be found out."
This is huge, isn't it? After all these years of maintaining her peculiar form of camouflage, she wants to be found out after talking to this man for less than a minute?
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I am ever so grateful to you, Éloïse, for your last post. It was an immense relief to know that "bring" and "take" were not the REAL issue in French.
To tell the truth, I've never been terribly "worked up" about those two verbs, which rank far, FAR behind in importance compared to "lie" and "lay". But I won't go into that. Just many, many thanks to you.
Of course we take from, and/or read into a book whatever pleases us, and that is fine and dandy. There is no harm in looking for the positive, for a happy end, simply because life is often not like that. So we've got to take the bitter with the sweet -nolens volens - willy nilly.
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JoanP said: Even if M. Ozu has the power to read people, don't you think he went a bit far in asking the 12 year old to spy on the concierge? I mean, really!
Actually, I don’t. Maybe I read too many Nancy Drew books as a kid, featuring a sleuth who was about 19 going on all sorts of adventures, but I find it in keeping with both Monsieur Ozu’s and Paloma’s characters that he would ask such a thing of her. If I were a 12 year old girl, intrigued by a new Japanese resident of my building and wondering myself about the concierge, I would be thrilled to get such an assignment.
JoanP asked: Are you enjoying Manuela's appreciation for M. Ozo's renovations in the new apartment?
I found the section about the pocket doors to be both interesting and true. I wish I had some pocket door in my house!
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I like to read each version as a stand alone one and I only compare when someone mentions a certain line that is not clear. Otherwise I would spend too much time only comparing when I like to concentrate on the story. Reading the French version I understand their particular biting wit and style and I enjoy it, but I don't wish to go back and forth trying to find a better translation because it is as good as the translator understood. I do quite a bit of translating myself and you have to find words to FIT the context and the intention. The translator has to satisfy the editor too. I think the English version of this book in particular is good because no matter what you say, you can't really get into the mind set of another culture.
I enjoy Renée's rumination of how she perceives high society. If she is caustic most of the time, don't forget that her job is far from rewarding for someone like her, but she chooses to stay there. I am happy that she finally found someone that she likes in her building, Mr. Ozu seems to be well liked by everybody even little Paloma who suddenly doesn't find anything to criticize about him, at last. I was starting to dispair for her to find someone she likes, let it be Mr Ozu then they can become friends and his wisdom will correct the twisted image she has of her entourage. She doesn't need analysis this one, she is just poor little rich kid.
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Hardly "love at first sight", STRAUDE. More, I think, a satisfactory mutual
recognition of intellectual superiority. 8)
Paloma: “I am going to say something really banal, but intelligence , in itself, is neither valuable or interesting.”
I must disagree with our little pre-teen judge, here. Intelligence is always valuable. It is not always used, or is used to no good purpose; that is true enough. But to say something is wasted is not to say it had no value to begin with. With intelligence, there is always the possibility of positive change even
in those the child finds so distressing.
However, I am finding a sister soul in young Paloma. She feels about trees as I do. I could never be happy and content living without trees around me.
From the last ch. of this section: “Television distracts us from the onerous necessity of finding projects to construct in the vacuity of our frivolous lives;” Ouch! Busted! I spent too much time in front of a TV, as I’m well aware. I try to tell myself that I have not led a frivolous life and am now entitled to fritter away my time, but I still have pangs of guilt. It must be the ghosts of my ancestors, whispering a warning about ’idle hands’
Funny, but I feel no guilt for all the time I spend reading. I suppose I feel I am at least exercising my brain and possibly learning something. But to what purpose? Well, I at least get to share some of what I learn here on Seniorlearn.
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Eloise, I think we are learning there is more to Renée's job description than lurking in her loge, spying on the tenants, receiving packages and messages for them. She's mopping the floor, watering the plants, running errands for those who speak to her as if she is incapable of understanding. Wouldn't the tenants be surprised if they knew just how much she looked down on them!
On several occasions, she is surprised to learn that her assessment of others just might be flawed. Remember the homeless man, hearing that Mr. Arthens had died, spoke highly of him. She admitted that she had assumed all poor people would be united in their hatred of propertied classes. (As she herself was?)
"Intelligence is always valuable. It is not always used, or is used to no good purpose"
Babi, I believe Renée would agree with you - and disagree with Paloma on this. I have to ask you, though - to what good purpose does Renée use her God-given intelligence? What I'm seeing is criticism of those who have been given all the opportunities to learn...scorn, perhaps. Paloma goes easier on those "who know neither the enchantment nor the beauty of language" - she says she pities them.
Busted? ;D I'm curious to know what you find to watch on TV these days, Babi. Are you talking about daytime TV? A vast wasteland...give me a book any day!
Are you ready to move on to the Summer Rain chapters in the morning? Perhaps the two narrators will finally meet, Laura. Or is there more you would like to talk about in the Grammar chapters? There is a lot here, I know, a month doesn't seem long enough for this little book, does it?
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JOANP, I would say Renee' basically uses her intelligence to make her life more bearable. She loses herself in her books.
As for TV, the only daytime tv I watch is quiz shows like 'Jeopardy' or "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire", to see how many questions I can answer, or re-runs of old classics like "MASH". In the evenings, I do admit to being partial to the new CSI type shows. I am fascinated by all the things they can do in the labs now.
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Babi - the game shows are fun, aren't they? I can see you watching "Jeopardy" - I'll bet you do very well with those questions. There's a new one I like - maybe it's on cable - "Cash Cab"? I bet you'd like that too!
I agree with you - Renée is using her intelligence to make her OWN life more bearable. But I don't see her using all that knowledge for any other purpose. It must be difficult not being able to share what she knows - and feels, with anyone else. In this, she is just like Paloma, isn't she?
I think we've got to move on - this is only a one month discussion! There is so much in each of the Grammar chapters - of course we'll welcome any referrals to these chapters for episodes you enjoyed - or to ponder the philosophical thoughts. There's so much going on with TIME, the present...and movement (the passage of time?) - I want to talk about, but not sure where the author is going with these ideas. Art for example, Art captures a moment in time - in a frame. What is the author saying when she says we can enjoy Art only if we understand that our enjoyment is ephemeral...
We get more on Art in the Summer Rain chapters...I'm eager to go on, but hesitant not to overlook anything in the preceding ones. That's where you come in!
Will the two narrators appear on the same stage in the Summer Rain chapters? Or is the author still building the suspense?
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I regret I haven't been able to continue I just read the page of posts and find them interesting I think I am going to copy all the pages and read them later ...Easter sunday a dear companion of nine years left for HOME for more reasons than I care to tell it was a very sad departure for his family , mine and his friends...his daughter, another friend and myself stayed with him until the end,...I cant do it now but as I said I WILL copy all the posts and take them and read the book to the end according to where you are each time so I can understand how everyone felt After the beginning pages I have been unable to read at all. It will help to pass the hours and although I wont be posting I know your posts will give me help to understand ..
Regardless of why we read, ( for pleasure. for enlightenment,. for knowledge, for bragging rights IE Oh yes I did read that book too..) reading is the ultimate joy for me...it gives all I mentioned plus so many more...and I am thankful we have this place to read and discuss what we have read...May you have good days and sweet nights ...always, anna
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Fairanna{{{{HUGS}}}} It's such a hard thing to lose a good friend. Will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
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Anna: It is so good to see you here, and I wanted to tell you so much sooner.
After all, you and I almost met at the bash in Montreal (how many years ago was it?), organized with such love and care and foresight by our Éloïse. The plan was for you to fly from Virginia to Massachusetts, spend a night or more, then for us to head together for Montreal in my car with you driving it. Sadly, I never made it to the fête but you did, I understood, and I was happy for you.
Regardless and in spite of physical limitations we are truly blessed for having this very special, cherished meeting place, and I am deeply grateful to those who made it a reality.
May I now offer my sincere condolences on your recent loss. There are no words to soothe a heavy heart, but loving thoughts and prayers may bring some consolation.
Traude
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Dear, dear Anna,
We all know what you are going through. Unfortunately we've reached the age when we must begin to say goodbye to our oldest friends, our precious friends. We cannot replace them, we will never forget them. They live on in memory. Fortunately, you have the support of your family and your friends who understand. You know we all care about you. I hope this is some consolation to you.
Listen, Anna, our book discussions are all archived...you don't have to copy the pages of posts. When you are ready to return to Hedgehog, all you have to do is come here to the main page and scroll down to the Archived discussion. Also, if you want to talk to someone about the book, you can post in the Library. We're not going anywhere when the book discussion is over. We'll be happy to chat with you there.
Let's begin to discuss the Summer Rain chapters in the morning. The new tenant has everyone's attention, yet there is no one he seems more interested in than the concierge. He's invited her to dinner! Imagine that! What will she wear? She's wearing her coveralls. Her hair is a mess...she wishes she never accepted the invitation. Why did she accept???
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JoanP, there is so much "material" in this book (and we haven't even considered WHY so much of it is even there and for whose benefit). But respectfully I repeat what I said before, we have no choice but immerse ourselves in the story such as it is presented, in bits and pieces, in the voices of two ridiculously different narrators -- in other words, go on and see what develops, how, and with whom.
I believe that staying on track is the only key to this book --- simply because it is impossible to follow up on each philosophical, literary and artistic thread. Even if we had the time, which we do not, we might still arrive at an answer or solution. Therefore I'd like to suggest that we follow the story to see where the author is leading us. Perhaps we'll discover at the end what (and whose) philosophical wisdom formed the basis for this book.
Babi and Laura, your theories are valid and I agree. it is quite possible that we see parts of the author's personality reflected in the young Paloma and then in Mme. Michel.
Éloïse, yes, Mme Michel's observations are "caustic", as you said. I'd go further and call them 'vitriolic', but why this harshness? How CAN we overlook the repeated occurrence of the word 'hatred' for people simply because they are rich ??
That is tantamount to an OBSESSION!!!
I hold no brief against love at first sight, far be it from me. Bless those to whom it happens.
However, on the basis of what we have read so far, how good a candidate for love at first sight is Mme. Michel?
She who steeled herself for decades with an invisible armor against all manifestations of indignities and hostility because of her lowly station in life - to the point where even 'normal' courtesies have become a source of suspicion, and kindness a miracle. And ...
I am sorry, but I cannot see any logic in this extreme behavior : tea in secret, coffee out in the open, among other discordant things. In sum, the importance of keeping up appearances under any circumstances.
i cannot imagine such total self-negation ... words fail me no matter how hard I try.
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Traudee, you are right - there is too much here to follow up every philosophical thread - but we can try to examine those threads the author repeats - thus underlining their significance. The many references to Tolstoy deserves our attention - an author appreciated by both the concierge and the new tenant. Let's consider this author who is bringing the two together by providing them with talking points, without which I don't think M. Ozu would have shown her much interest at all. What are the underlying themes in War and Peace - and Anna Karenina?
I'm smiling at the concept of "love at first sight" - which Traudee questions - rightly. Madame Michel says she's wearing her "semi-retarded concierge uniform." Eloise, I'd love to hear how Mme. Barbery describes this outfit - and if the translator has been true to what was written. It appears on the first page of the Summer Rain chapter, Infinitesimal. She's also making an effort to appear inept. I'm forced to admit that "love at first sight" doesn't quite describe what happened here. Nor were the feelings mutual. He finds her of interest. She feels he has seen her as she is - she is the one who shudders involuntarily admitting that perhaps this means that she wants to be found out. Madame Michel's is the stronger response to their shared moment, don't you think? He is the one who invites her to dinner. He must be somewhat interested in her.
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Joan, I am not very surprised that Renée especially loved to read Tolstoy because Russian aristocracy and literature before the Napoleonic war reflected its attachment to the French culture and language. Tolstoy often uses French in his writings, he was an aristocrat. French was spoken at Court as it was in England before the 19th century. Russian and English were the languages of the population but the aristocracy spoke French until they decided to make their respective language one that reflected their culture abandoning anything French that had so viciously betrayed them. After the Napoleonic wars French was no longer in style, no wonder.
Tolstoy and French (http://writing-program.uchicago.edu/resources/collegewriting/revising_the_introduction.htm)
I don’t think Mr. Ozu has the same attachment to Tolstoy that Renée has, he would be a man with a broad education and he just wanted to please Renée by offering her that book because he could actually feel how unhappy she was in her persona.
Anna Karénine was almost a French novel, by its values about class and proper behaviour. War and Peace was the novel that broke the attachment that had linked the two cultures. IMO
I don’t think either also that Renée fell in love with Mr. Ozu. He just broke through her concierge persona and that destabilized her. She thought she could put it over everybody in the building, but he immediately put two and two together when he found out her cat’s name was Leo because his own cats were named after characters in a Tolstoy novel and that was what tickled his fancy. Because she shudders when that happens doesn’t mean to me either that she wants to be found out. She is upset because he found her out. Well I don’t know what the author wants us to believe.
Joan in the Grammar chapter under Infinitesimal Renée says in French: “J’ai endossé mon habit de concierge semi-débile” In English it says: “I am wearing my semi-retarded concierge uniform”
In my mind I am reading that Renée is not describing her clothing at all, she is just saying by “endossé” that her demeanour is now one of a concierge. In France most women wear dresses or skirts, I would be very very surprised that Renée would have ever worn pants or a uniform of any kind. She might be wearing an apron and I think she mentioned that once, I am not sure. The translator just didn’t catch the nuance. You can “endosser” a behaviour, not just a piece of clothing. Another thing she says “endossé mon habit de concierge” well “habit” is a suit, not a uniform. But lets not dismiss this fine translator, she is doing a good job. I don’t think anyone could have done it better.
There are so many “nuances” in this book, the philosophy itself is hard to ‘tackle’ but we do get the drift of it. This novel depicts the French way of thinking, and when I read it in French nothing surprises me about their thinking and when I read it in English I have to make an effort to try and revert to the English way of thinking. I don’t know if I am making myself clear.
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“Television distracts us from the onerous necessity of finding projects to construct in the vacuity of our frivolous lives;”
When I read this passage, I thought not only of television, but of video games, and even the internet. I sometimes feel guilty when watching TV and when reading; then I remember, balance in all things. Regularly, I watch The Apprentice, Ugly Betty, Oprah, My Name is Earl, and the news. I like game shows and HGTV too, and Martha Stewart and movies, but don’t watch those regularly. I am always behind in my TV viewing (thank goodness for TiVO), but rarely behind in my reading. :)
Going into the Summer Rain section, I just have to say, “Renee and Paloma still have not met!” I have decided their meeting must be the climax of the book, coming near the end, leaving us to imagine their new found friendship rather than experiencing it.
Eloise said: This novel depicts the French way of thinking, and when I read it in French nothing surprises me about their thinking and when I read it in English I have to make an effort to try and revert to the English way of thinking. I don’t know if I am making myself clear.
This statement is fascinating to me. I studied Spanish for many years, and when I read Shadow of the Wind, translated from Spanish, I could read more into it because I could imagine the original Spanish from what the translator had written in English, usually on the parts translated a bit awkwardly. Countries do have their own ways of thinking, and I was lucky enough to be able to observe some of a contemporary French peer’s way of thinking when we had my brother-in-law’s cousins from France join us for Thanksgiving --- so interesting to me. And lack of a language barrier doesn’t make up for the cultural differences either, as we experienced in our time living in England.
I was literally laughing out loud during the first chapters of this section, when Renee is running through excuses in her head, and then speaks out with something unplanned, but true and accurate! Hilarious! Thank goodness she had Manuela to help her get ready for her dinner with Monsieur Ozu!
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You're so right about that, JOANP. The 'Grammar' section is so full of
things to talk about, I think I have more tags/notes there than anywhere
else in the book.
STRAUDE, perhaps it is an over-simplification to say Ms. Michel hates rich
people just because they are rich. What she hates is seeing people who have
so many possibilities open to them wasting them with inanities and
superfluities. And, of course, assuming a superiority due to position, which
they obviously cannot hold intellectually.
It is wonderful the difference Mr. Uzo is making in Paloma’s life. “…he looks at me as if to say, “Who are you? Do you want to talk to me? How nice it is to be here with you." Mr. Uzo has ”this attitude that gives the other person the impression of really being there.” This is a first for Paloma.
I'm really looking forward to starting on the next section. I have so many tags/notes there! So much to discuss.
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Eloise - I am wearing my semi retarded concierge uniform Your comments concerning Renee's meaning are intriguing as I didn't realise there was any ambiguity in the translation. I agree with your assessment - to me it is clearly a reference to her demeanour and has nothing to do with clothing. The translation makes perfect sense and is almost in the Australian idiom - we might say 'put on' instead of 'wearing' but would certainly use 'uniform' to describe a particular manner or demeanour. One puts on a uniform to meet a particular circumstance or event. In this instance the translator seems to be absolutely correct.
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Where we are right now in our reading is how far I got reading this novel on our trip last week to Augusta, for the Masters. I didn't read (which is unusual all of time that we were there) but I had my book in my purse. When I checked out, I carelessly took the book out of said purse, presented the credit card and said my good byes to the wonderful family that doted on us for 5 days. By the time I was ready to open my book up again we were almost OUT of Georgia. I kept searching aimlessly thru the purse as if it would miraculously appear and realized that I had left it on the desk. I'm telling you I whined like a "little girl" all of the way home over my lapse.
I called the next morning and asked them to please send it to me COD. Yesterday the UPS truck driver beeped, handed me the wrapped parcel and told me I needed to remit $25.93. I almost swallowed my chewing gum.
WHAT?????????????? I screeched? the bloody book cost me about ten bucks and i am not paying that amount of money. With that he sweetly smiled, shrugged and said "OK ma'am, I will send it back."
ggggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
I am not happy about my blunder and had to share this with you. I am following along and appreciate your comments SANS book in hand.
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Oh my, Andrea, what a bummer ! But I understand how this can happen. Believe it or not, at this very moment I cannot find my Hedgehog ;D I had domestic help yesterday and that's when the book disappeared. I have been looking for it ever since - so far no luck.
I wanted to get back to the Grammar section because of something I had brought up too early before we actually had arrived at the precise spot. But I have yet to find the book. We are fortunate that Éloïse has been good enough to quote the original text when we asked about possible discrepancies in the English translation - and with good reason, as it turns out.
Now, however, we must take delight in Renée's "coming out", so to speak.
BTW, it's interesting how differently we interpret what we read. It id not occur to me that Mr. Ozu was really asking Paloma to "spy on" Mme. Michel. I thought it was a friendly joshing remark, with a wink perhaps, "asking something likme "Is there more than meets the eye? Could she be one of US?"
But Paloma had already started to doubt the masquerade. She caught sight of a bookthat tumbled out of Mr. Michel's grocery bag, which the boy Pallières had knocked over. Paloma recognized it as one of a series her sister Colombe was studying and was moved to think "Now what on God's earth does a mere concierge do with a book like that?"
Actually, I fid the thought patronizing and, frankly, appalling.
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We are on the road this weekend - beautiful weather in Charleston, South Carolina - everything in bloom, trees draped in Spanish moss! Will be home tonight and can pay closer attention to your posts.
I really hope we can talk a bit more about Tolstoy - the writer who has sparked the connection between M. Ozu and Madame la Concierge. I understand that she has fallen in love with the romance of the Russian writers...but not so certain about his interest in the Russian author.
What do we know about Mr. Ozu? His background? About Japanese education? Eloise, you don't think he is quite as enthralled with the Russian writer, but is just trying to please Madame Michel, realizing that she is familiar Anna Karenina. I sense it was more than that - he could quote the opening lines! He named his two cats...
I think the author has chosen Tolstoy for another reason to emphasize her main theme -
Eloise points out that Tolstoy was an aristocrat...yes, and he was also a friend of Victor Hugo (Les Miserables) when living in France - he describes love between aristocrats and Cossacks...the falsities of society - landowners working along side of peasants... and there's more...
about his attempts to educate the poor when he returned to Russia...
Bruce wants to get on the road - the sun isn't up yet, I haven't had breakfast, but oh have I had enough to eat of Charleston's delicious, but filling Low Country cuisine! I wanted to comment about the "date" -
Laura - I was laughing out loud too. Didn't it remind you of your first school dance? You wanted to go, but dreaded it at the same time. Manuela really came through, didn't she? I really don't think Renee could have gone through with it without her help!\
Bruce is pulling the plug on my laptop - must go. See you tonight~
I must be sure to pack Hedgehog (I lost my first copy)- Andy, I can just see the look on the faces of the people you stayed with in GA who shipped your package!!! :o
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Joan - when the book is returned to them, I wonder if they will have to pay the charge to get it back. Man, this book turned out to be a million dollar best seller in more than one way. I am off to Captiva tomorrow for 4 days to play in the sun with my 2 granddaughters and sip awine with my eldest. :D
Be safe in your travels.
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Awe Andy I’m sorry and we are in the middle of the book, can you get a copy at the library perhaps? Well not if you are off on another jaunt with your grand daughters. Have fun out there.
Joan, have a good time today in your beautiful area. We are just starting here, but I am not complaining, it’s sunny at least.
Remember that Madame Michel was quoting Karl Marx, I wonder if this was not some sort of foreshadowing that in fact she had socialist political leanings like so many intellectuals, writers and philosophers who seek social justice.?
« Je suis laid, gauche, malpropre et sans vernis mondain. Je suis irritable, désagréable pour les autres, prétentieux, intolérant et timide comme un enfant. Je suis ignorant. Ce que je sais, je l'ai appris par-ci, par-là, sans suite et encore si peu ! [...] Mais il y a une chose que j'aime plus que le bien : c'est la gloire. Je suis si ambitieux que s'il me fallait choisir entre la gloire et la vertu, je crois bien que je choisirais la première. »
— Journal, 7 juillet 1854
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on_Tolsto%C3%AF
This is what Tolstoy says about himself :
I am ugly, awkward, dirty and without social grace. I am irritable, disagreeable to others, pretentious, intolerant and shy like a child. I am ignorant. What I know, I learned here and there without guidance and then so little!... But there is one thing that I love more than to do good… it is glory. I am so ambitious that if I had to choose between glory and virtue, I think that I would choose the first one.
Is that why Renée loves Tolstoy?
What do you think about Paloma's meeting with her mother's therapist? Is this what a 12 year old would be able to pull off I wonder?
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I had not even considered why the author would have chosen Tolstoy as the author that initially draws Renee and Monsieur Ozu together! I would have missed an important piece of the book had this not been brought up. I think they meet “over” Tolstoy because a major theme of his books, Anna Karenina and War and Peace, was class differences. In Anna Karenina, we saw Levin working along side his muzaks (I hope that is what they were called) and discussing how to make them more involved in the success of the crops. In War and Peace, we saw the upper classes far removed from much of Russia, speaking French nonetheless, yet they, too, ended up being affected by the war, especially Pierre.
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"Now what on God's earth does a mere concierge do with a book like that?"
I think the key word here was "mere", STRAUDE. Paloma was expressing a
doubt that Mme. Michel was a 'mere' concierge, ie., the person she has been pretending to be all along.
Excellent point, LAURA. I would not have thought of that at all, if you
had not pointed it out. It does make sense.
Paloma explains what happened to her, listening to the school choir, when all troubles seem to disappear. “Everyday life vanishes into song, you are suddenly overcome with a feeling of brotherhood, of deep solidarity, even love, and it diffuses the ugliness of everyday life into a spirit of perfect communion.”
Then, Paloma in PT # 12 “…teenagers think they’re adults when in fact they’re imitating adults who never really made it into adulthood. and who are running away from life.”
It has always seemed to me that teenagers do think they are adults, but believe themselves quite different from the adults around them. More ‘modern’ in their thinking, unfettered by outmoded and silly social mores,.. or so they see themselves.
Paloma is quite intelligent, and like Renee', reads widely. I think it quite possible she could have flummoxed someone like her mother's 'therapist',
who is obviously less intelligent than the 12-year-old in front of him.
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Question: how much would Renee have been like Paloma at the age of 12?
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That, JoanK, is an electrifying question.
I was all set to blurt out an instant impetuous answer - then I thought I had better contain myself a little longer. :)
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Re the questions.
1. I believe "naked" is not meant in the literal sense of the word.
"Found out" by a compassionate man, a kindred soul, without the cloak and armor of her concierge's acoutrements, deprived of her presumed "invisibility", Renée felt unprotected
2. Doubtless the love story between Anna Karenina and Count Vronsky.
3. All along Manuela has been the realist, the one with the practical sense - and with an actual plane for the future !!!
In none of her musings has R. given any thought to HER future.
4. Underneath her self-righteousness and despite her scathing criticism of the world she lives in, Paloma has a compassionate, soft core - and how could she not? She is experiencing an emotional awakening similar to Renée's. This is another of the [b[parallel development[/b] of the narrators I had alluded to before.
It seems that Paloma buries her nose in her school books and in her two journals, both carefully hidden at all times. She shares meals with the family, is present when company is there. But does not talk much at home. That's why Maman takes her to the psychiatrist in the hope that HE will get her to talk. But the plan back-fires. Paloma calls the doc's bluff and wins the day. Now that's reason to applaud.
JoanP, I hope you are enjoying a most wonderful day. I remember Williamsburg, VA and also Morehead City N.C.
at this time of year; and I treasure the memories.
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Sorry that I haven't been posting but I have been finding everyone's posts so illuminating in respect to some of the text that I may have glossed over too rapidly back when I first read this book in the fall. This has been a wonderful discussion of a wonderful book!
There is one little thing I could add, though:
I had heard of Mr. Ozu, the Japanese film director, before and wondered at the coincidence of the names. Is it on purpose or just a coicidence, do you think? We watched his film Equinox Flower last night and plan to see the other 3 films that our library owns. I can't believe that Ms Barbery does anything accidentally!
The other little tidbit : When among the definitions of "conatus" I found "a vital force in plants or animals similar to human effort" there was also this quotation:" What conatus could give prickles to the porcupine or hedgehog?" - Paley!! Note the HEDGEHOG! Wow!
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We're home...after a nine hour drive - just in time to start dinner ready! :P Had we been any later, we would have eaten on the road. Better luck next time!
Look who's here! JoanR, it is so wonderful to see you here. Wow! ANother Hedgehog reference! They seem to be popping up all over since we've begun. That is definitely a coincidence! We'll have to add it to our glossary.
I've been wondering about the "coincidence" of the Ozu names too. Surely it will be explained before we reach the end of the book? Right now, it is enough to know that Renée loves the Yasujirō Ozu's films...especially "The Flavor of Green Tea over Rice" - and of course, the "The Makioka Sisters" (I'm not sure of the spelling) - the one with the camellia in the moss. I still need help understanding the significance of the camellia here - but still trying. I can see it is important from the many references. So far - it stands for BEAUTY. And that Renée is the camillia, hidden in moss? Can anyone add to this?
There's are so many wonderful points, made here today - I reread the Summer Rain chapters again coming home - and made a few edits to the discussion questions in the header. Where's Jude? I noticed that in the last question, Solange Josse's "doctor" was referred to as a "psychiatrist" - after your careful explanation of the difference. Please excuse - I thought that had been changed, but apparently not. It's fixed now - that's all that counts. I hope you will comment on that episode. Imagine the effect on that young girl!
Eloise, I agree, Paloma is unlike any 12 year old I've ever met. I would have sat up and noticed, had I been the analyst. I would have moved!
I don't think that Renée was as precocious as this child at age 12, JoanK...though I think they were alike in that they were both voracious readers, both went out of their way to hide their intelligence. Both in hiding, but oh, wasn't Renée so much more alone in her camouflage. Would you call Paloma "shy"?
Weren't you shocked to read that she (Paloma) has a close friend - has had her for the last two years? I don't know about you - but this new information is incongruous with the image I was forming of Paloma up until this chapter.
Need to get dinner - can't wait to get back!
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It was I who made the erroneous reference to psychiatrist. Mea culpa. My bad - as one says now.
Obviously the man was a psychoanalyst, as explained. Whatever his qualifications, Solange Josse trusted him and took the pills he so very liberally prescribed. We are never told whether there any real need for them. Good thing Solange failed to count them!
But when the family cornered Paloma, she told them 'she as hearing voices', and THAT'S when Maman sprang into action and made the appointment. When Paloma tried to take it all back, they didn't believe her. But she came out the winner in the end.
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The Child and the Psychoanalyst
In response to some of your remarks-
Psychoanalysts CANNOT prescribe medications or anything else. Please check my former posts. He is not a Medical Doctor! The medication is from a General Practitioner (MD) or a Psychiatrist who the Mother sees in tandem with the Psychoanalyst.
The author is really making fun of the Psychoanalyst who has to be the biggest Booby of the century. Any Professional who is put upon and threatened by a twelve year old child (No matter how smart she thinks she is) should go out of business.
The whole scenario should be in a comic book and not in this pseudo serious novel.
Has anyone checked if Anna Kerinina really starts with the famous saying about happy families? I have not checked but somehow I remember it is the preamble to another novel by Tolstoy. However it was very nice of Mr Ozu to give Renee this opening. I have been so overjoyed that he has joined this unhappy group of people that I have no desire to find any fault with him. The Messiah has arrived and he hopefully, will save everyone from their tormented lives.
He is the perfect Prince Charming and his Vietnamese Aide adds to this aura of perfection. I can happily read on now without thinking , 'What tortuous miseries does the author hold in store for me' on the next page.
Mr Ozu's charm, good taste, sensitivity and charm have left me feeling as though I have been fed after a long winter of starvation. Here is the Deux Ex Machina and he is sweet, smart , rich and sensitive. He will bring our protagonists together and will bring light to the darkness of their existence.
Mr. Ozu-:"You are long overdo!"
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Hey Juuuuude! Good to hear from you! I was afraid you felt ignored when I saw the "psychiatrist" in the last question. It was an oversight that didn't get corrected when the new set of questions came out. See, it wasn't you, Traudee...
I went right to Chapter I of Anna K. (http://www.grtbooks.com/exitfram.asp?idx=2&yr=1903&aa=TO&at=AF&ref=tolstoy&URL=http://www.literature.org/authors/tolstoy-leo/anna-karenina/index.html) - to double check the first lines...and yes, there they are -
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."
Do you suppose this relates to Paloma and to Renée's families growing up, both unhappy, but unhappy in their own way?
Laura - I'm thinking of the title of these chapters - "Summer Rain" - connecting the refreshing rain that fell on Levin scything in the fields in the summer sun, are you?
(One of my frivolous pasttimes is watching the HGTV programs, too. Especially trying to figure out which home the househunters will choose...)
Eloise! That is a fantastic find - Tolstoy's description of himself. The physical description is right on - and the lack of social graces too. I am not so sure that Renée loves glory, or that she is ambitious - or even that she loves to do good. What do you all think?
Babi - I was struck by Paloma's emotion listening to the school choir. (At first I thought she had joined the choir!) Actually, the whole rowdy group of adolescents seemed to succumb to the music - "with solidarity"- as long as the singing continued! That emotion - plus the fact that Paloma has a close friend were the two Paloma surprises for me in this chapter.
Tomorrow is another day - I am really enjoying this, challenging though it is! - Hope you are too...
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Sorry I've not been posting much. I am spending an inordinate amount of time sitting in hospital waiting areas and specialist's rooms whilst my Beloved One undergoes tests, screens, scans, biopsies etc. Not all results have been clear so now there are treatments. Happily the immediate prognosis is positive. But the upshot of this is that my mind has turned to jelly and to concentrate on reading is difficult - though I am getting a lot of knitting done. :)
That said, I am enjoying the posts - it's wonderful what each of us sees in this complex book which others may overlook and vice versa. Each short chapter is brimming with ideas and discussion points - too many to do justice to in just a month.
JoanP : The repeated mention of camellias and moss is intriguing. Somewhere Renee likens herself to the 'camellia on the moss' - so does she see herself as a fallen flower - one that is past its best and just lying on the ground among the dross of life?
The other little tidbit : When among the definitions of "conatus" I found "a vital force in plants or animals similar to human effort" there was also this quotation:" What conatus could give prickles to the porcupine or hedgehog?" - Paley!! Note the HEDGEHOG! Wow!
JoanR : your comment sent me to look up conatus again - The online dictionary in the header gives this:
Conatus - A natural tendency inherent in a body to develop itself - and adds the quotation you mention.
If we put those together it would be : What conatus (or, natural tendency inherent in a body to develop itself) could give prickles to the porcupine or hedgehog, or to the sheep its fleece.
Such a natural tendency would appear to be as basic as 'self preservation' - in the Porcupine, Hedgehog (and the Australian Echidna) the self preservation manifests itself as prickles or spiny growths as armour against predators, in sheep it is wool as protection from cold, and in our friends Renee and Paloma there is the facade they have built against intrusion into their own private world of the mind. Both of our characters are attempting to preserve their inner self - seemingly at all costs.
Is there a natural tendency or 'conatus' in us all to cloak our real being from the world - at least in part. I don't think anyone reveals all of themselves to everyone - we seem to need a facade to protect the soft inner core. Maybe we are only completely revealed to the 'significant other' we choose. Renee revealed herself to Lucien at least so far as reading openly goes, but whether he appreciated her mind is debatable.
I don't think it is 'love at first sight' between Mr. Ozu and Renee but am still of the opinion that they are simply kindred spirits - it takes one to know one - Mr Ozu is a cultured man and Renee has a cultured mind - in that respect they recognise one another and meet as equals. Mr Ozu also recognises the potential in Paloma and treats her as an equal - this hasn't happened to her before so no wonder she is under his spell.
I was curious as to why Madame Josse allowed Paloma to visit Mr Ozu alone. Would you allow your 12 year old daughter to visit a newcomer before you have even been inside his apartment...? He may be very rich and charming but he is an unknown to the Josse family and Paloma is a very young girl. All my maternal alarm bells would be ringing out loud.
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Question: how much would Renee have been like Paloma at the age of 12?
Not very like at all, I would think. Paloma has enormous self-confidence
and self-esteem. Renee'would have had almost none. Both are solitary and
secretive, but for very different reasons. Paloma is solitary out of scorn
for those around her. Renee' would have kept a low profile from fear of being
hurt, like her sister. The whole outlook of the two is so very different.
In none of her musings has R. given any thought to HER future
.
True, STRAUDE. Renee' simply assumes that her life will always be
just as it is now. When you have been living the same way for...what?..38 years?...I suppose you take it for granted.
JOANP, I agree the camellia does stand for beauty, but more significantly,
beauty in the midst of all the harshness. Bits of beauty...a camellia on a mossy
stone wall...that spark a moment of pleasure and joy despite all the grayness
of life.
The Messiah has arrived and he hopefully, will save everyone from their
tormented lives. He is the perfect Prince Charming and his Vietnamese Aide
adds to this aura of perfection.
JUDE, what a perfect characterization for Mr. Uzo. He is indeed the
'deux ex machina', and how wonderfully he fits the role.
The introduction of Marguerite is somewhat surprising. Can anyone explain for me Marguerite’s retort to Colombe when the latter patronized her name as belonging to their grandmothers generation? “And is your other name Christophe?” From the italicized ‘your’, I assume Marguerite’s other name is Christophe, and this is supposd to be a stunner.
I'm sorry to hear of your trouble, GUMTREE. I'm glad to hear the prognosis is positive.
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Thanks Babi - and is your other name Christophe
Initially I took this to be a literary reference to Romain Rollande's great novel Jean-Christophe but on second thoughts think Marguerite is making a sarcastic remark meaning that Colombe was acting like Christopher Colombus - discovering the world. I didn't consider that Marguerite's second name could be Christophe. - I daresay someone will know.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/hdghogcvr.jpg) | "Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -
"Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1836659,00.html)
The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence from a world she finds meaningless. The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27
April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129
April 13-16 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170
April 22-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325
Final Thoughts | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/DavidTroodG460.jpg)
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For Your Consideration
April 22-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs.241-315
1. Has Paloma entered the concierge's loge to hide from the world, just as Renée seems to be emerging from her camouflage?
2. Do you think Renée has any business resenting the affectation of the rich, like Colombe, who dress as if they are poor? What of intelligent people who disguise themselves as ignorant?
3. Why is Renée dismayed as she reads the final draft of Colombe's thesis? Do you think that Renée too has an obligation to use her acquired knowledge to contribute to the common good? Does Renée believe that?
4. Why do kids burn cars? Why does Paloma want to burn the apartment? Do the answers to both questions relate to Renée's situation?
5. Were there instances of "laconicism" and humorous exchanges that you enjoyed in these chapters while attempting to grasp the deeper philosophical implications?
6. Why is the movement of the falling rosebud so special to Paloma? Do you see Beauty in a fallen rosebud yet to blossom - or does it make you sad?
7. Why did Renée turn down Kakuro's invitation to celebrate his birthday? Was it the photo of his beautiful wife, Sanae? Would she have faced the real reason had Paloma not forced the issue?
8. How did Renée's tearful revelation affect Paloma? (A doctor or a writer - are they nearly the same?)
9. What did Kakuro tell Renée at dinner that changed everything and caused her not to sleep that night?
10. "Suddenly class struggles seem less important." Were they ever really as important as Renée believed them to be? Do you believe class differences are real or imagined?
Relevant Links:
Online Dictionary (English) (http://www.thefreedictionary.com);
Glossary of posted Definitions (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/glossaryhedgehog.html)
French-English Dictionary (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt);
Hôtels particuliers (http://images.google.ca/images?hl=fr&q=hotels+particuliers+in+paris&btnG=Recherche+d%27images&gbv=2); An Interview with Muriel Barbery (http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/?author_number=1656&Barbery-interview);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Eloise (eloisede@sympatico.ca )
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Ah Gum! Thanks so much for the update on B.O. - what relief you must feel, knowing the situation - and looking at a good prognosis. That's wonderful news.
What have you been knitting - what yarn are you using? - famous wool from the Antipodes?
Thanks for mentioning those Camellias. I've been down in South Carolina, where the moss hangs from the trees...living moss. Actually, it is quite beautiful A camellia could bloom, partially hidden by moss. While there, I was wondering what the moss looks like in that Ozu film Renée likes so much, in which she viewed the camillia in the moss. What do you think? Is the beautiful camellia living, blooming on a tree draped in moss? OR
Babi - do you see a living camellia on a stone wall, nesting in moss? OR-
Do you see a camellia that has dropped off the stem, lying on the ground - in the moss?
I can see the camellia representing "beauty that sparks a moment of pleasure and joy despite all the grayness
of life" - but I'm wondering how Renée is like the Camellia?
Yes, Babi - I see the Chrisophe/Colombe retort as Gum does...Marguerite putting Paloma's sister in her place. Marguerite, the newly-introduced-best-friend seems to spend a lot of time at Paloma's home, though Maman doesn't seem to be too pleased about it. Marguerite has dark skin, is of mixed race - and doesn't pussyfoot around when racial comments come her way. She speaks right up - I think she is a mouthpiece for Paloma, don't you? She doesn't keep her sarcastic thoughts to herself - just says what's on her mind, putting everyone in their place. She sees the Josse family as Paloma does - and is squarely in her friend's corner. Why didn't we know Paloma had a friend like this before?
Another best friend - can we compare Marguerite to Renée's friend, Manuela?
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It is the beginning of April vacation in Massachusetts and my grandchildren are in and out, each taking turns at the computer.
So can't manage a longer answer at this time.
JoanP. I have already answered some of the questions but more are emerging, right and left.
I totally agree with the impressions Babi and Gum have related. For Renée the experience is overwhelming - mind-boggling - unanaticipated, out of the blue. All her preconceived notions about needing to hide who she is, what she represents as a human being and is able to offer, evaporate like drops of water on a hot stone. It's an EPIPHANY.
I agree that Renée at age 12 could have been nothing like Paloma. She had only just been "awakened" from muteness, so to speak, by a dedicated teacher to her possibilities. Paloma instead was raised in a well-cushioned nest and already fully aware of her extraordinary intelligence.
Éloïse, I fear we need your help to tell us about that repartee in the exchange between Marguerite and Colombe.
What significance does the name "Christophe" have, and perhaps more important, what does it imply? Something nasty, no doubt.
I'm afraid you were right when you asked earlier. . There is little the concierge can exchange with Manuela other than gossip and practical, every-day things.
R. says something to that effect but I can't find it now.
Here's more proof of how important flowers are to the author and this book. Now we have Paloma's best friend named after one =Marguerite. Paloma says their friendship was "love at first sight" - does that sound a bit effusive to you?
And have you noticed that Paloma is mentioning the most handsome boy in class, Achille Grand-Fernet, TWICE in her P.T. # 12?
I have to get off line now.
GUM, thinking of you, sending you good thoughts and best wishes for what must be anxious, very hard moments.
Fondly, Traude
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Paloma has "Dr." Theid down to a "T", doesn't she?
"newly minted Seychelles" and "marron glacé". Hmmmm Someone light colored from the Seychelles Islands?
But aren't those racial terms ? >:(
What is a supermarket "flunkey" ?
"Wallou" seems to mean "nada", where does it come from? Is it a new idiom?
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Streude
Il ooked up the words you mentioned .Here are a few of the many for Flunky (Flunkey)
Failure- Victim, bankrupt flunky
Servant -Attendant , squire valet, flunky
Servility-Sycophant, parasite, toady. snob, flunky
The combination of Supermarket and flunky brought up the following-I quote from the article:
"We buy or"outsource" domestic labor time when we purchase heat and serve food in the supermarket. In a sense....these foods are a form of commodified domestic labor.
As far as wallou is concerned there were 12 pages of info. but no specific definition. It seems that the word is used as a titlle together woth woo or woi for various and sundry Rock groups, furniture establishments etc.
I don't know if this material is helpful.
As far as Palomas friend Marguerite is concerned-she, like Paloma, is an outsider. So I don't know if it is a true friendship or a self protecting mechanism -i.e. the two of us against the rest rather than myself alone against the rest.
Renee's friendship is based on a common past of poverty, striving and a good sense of humor. They both fulfill low positions in every day life yet when together they escape their jobs and find a breath of fresh air between them. They are true friends. It is not necessary for Renee to share her intellectual self to be a warm and good friend.
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I am in awe of all the wonderful posts. I am in the middle of family situations that require lots of my time. But I will be back tomorrow to respond to some very interesting ideas about what is happening at 7 rue de Grenelle. Isn't it getting interesting though.
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Thank you so much, Jude. I had checked and all but exhausted my possibilities, which include my two French Larousse dictionaries, heavy tomes I have difficulty holding (!). 'flunk' as a verb or adjective is not a problem, but I wondered what precisely a supermarket flunky (or flunkey) could possibly be. Itinerant vendors offering cheap trinkets to customers coming out of the grocery store? Majolr and even minor European cities are flooded with them and I have experienced them myself in Italy, notably in Venice.
Given the spelling of "flunkey" and some terms in the translation I wonderwhether the translator is English.
What Paloma means is "nothing", no reaction from the so-called doctor, nada. But Wallou is new to me.
Yes, there are many nuances we may not readily absorb, for example Paloma's references to her republican father, a Socialist and member of Parliament. Here, of course, the Democrats are automatically associated with any phrase that hasd "social" in it :) Not in France.
Also mentioned in Paloma's Profound Thoughts# 12 is Giscard d'Estaing, and I wonder how many of us remember the tall, dignified man who was he 20th President of the French Republic from 1974-1981.
Another venerable figure is mentioned by Paloma, General de Gaulle (or those who long after his death are 'Gaullists'). Churchill did not like de Gaulle, and his stiffness was not appreciated much here.. But he was a brilliant general in WW II and a statesman. In fact, he founded the 5th Republic of France in 1958.
Paloma also mentions 'Lacan' and I looked him up: he was a 20th century French psychoanalyst.
Éloïse, no hurry, of course. With your measured, calm reasoning any problem can be resolved, of that I am sure.
One last question: the English title of chapter 11 is "Existence and Duration". Is the original title Existence et Durée?
Special thanks.
And thanks to all of you for hanging in. You will not regret it.
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Eloise, we look forward to your return with your handy little French insights and original French edition!
Traudee, you've been busy! Paloma seems to have captured your attention. I couldn't bring myself to linger over her schtick. I'm glad that you did!
Let's not gloss over what has happened between the tenant and the concierge!!! I want you to translate the "ooh ooh ooh's" for me!!!
We just cannot skip over the dinner in M. Ozu's apartment. That was the highlight of the Summer Rain chapters, don't you think? According to the schedule, tomorrow is our last day before moving on...unless you tell us that you'd rather slow down... and extend a bit.
"If you have but one friend, make sure you choose her well."
Gum, Paloma didn't go to M. Ozu's place unescorted - she had her outspoken friend, Marguerite, at her side! ;D
And Renée has Manuela in her corner or I don't think she would ever have pulled it off, do you? Why do you think she accepted M. Ozu's invitation - because she didn't know how to turn him down - or because she really wanted to go?
Jude, I do see Marguerite as an outsider, now that you point it out and I think that Manuela is certainly not in the social swim, but she had taste, didn't she? - I guess she had experience picking up Mme. Josse's clothes to know what would work for such a dinner.
What a transformation!!! Wasn't the dress just too, too perfect for the occasion? I kept looking for some sort of a reaction from M. Ozu. Did he even notice her???
We were deflected from any comment because Renée's eyes went right past him to the copy of Pieter Claesz' still life...
What is your response to still life painting? To this particular one?
(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:D_ejdK_cz0zNEM::http://upload.wikimedia.org) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Pieter_Claesz_001.jpg/800px-)
Pieter Claesz still life - click picture to enlarge
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Gum, Paloma didn't go to M. Ozu's place unescorted - she had her outspoken friend, Marguerite, at her side! ;D
Yes, JoanP but that was Paloma's second visit to Mr. Ozu's apartment. The first occurs in Profound Thought No 11 after they had met in the lift and he comes to the door to invite Paloma to come to his apartment. Maman enticed by where this could lead, accepted eagerly on my behalf... In short I went to have tea at his place and meet his cats...
Paloma tells how after the tea they went on to discuss the definition of intelligence, then began to talk about Russian literature and Ozu decides to send Renee a copy of Anna K.
This is where I question what sort of a mother Madame Josse really is and begin to see that Paloma has good reason for her attitude toward her Maman.
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Gumtree, Traude, I think Marguerite mentioned Christopher Colombus because the French for that name is Christophe Colomb meaning it was no more an old name than Marguerite. I didn’t look for further explanation.
Paloma is portrayed as much older than 12 by the author when in fact she had just come out of primary school at that time. Where did she have time to become so well read? And even if she is brilliant academically how can she have the reasoning of a 20 something? But that also is entertaining, I can picture this little slip of a girl in deep conversation with a Mr. Ozu. He talks with her like an equal, something Paloma has never experienced before. Parents always think of their teenagers as babies still
The title of that chapter Traude on page 203 is Existence Without Duration. Une existence sans durée.
In the scene before our eyes-silent, without life or motion-a time excempt of projects is incarnated, perfection purloined from duration and its weary greed-pleasure without desire, existence without duration, beauty without will. For art is emotion without desire.
Something to ponder?
The dinner with Mr. Ozu was one of my best part of the book with Renée becoming mesmerized by Pieter Claesz’s still life. Personally I like to see people in art instead of still life.
What did you all think about the bathroom episode? Is it a bit far fetched? White walls and a yellow carpet, not my style, I prefer color on the walls and ceramic tiles on the floor. Renée's description of being locked up in the bathroom was so funny.
I think Wallou is just teenage jargon, it’s like computer shortcuts kids use today. It’s not in the dictionary. Wallou is in the French version also. I think it means ‘nothing’.
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JOANP, as I recall the description, the moss was growing on the stone wall of a
temple, and the Camellia was nesting in the moss. I don't think it is so much
that Renee' is like the camellia as that she keeps finding these spots of beauty
in life, which she likens to that image of the camellia. Actually, other people
do seem to be finding in Renee those moments of 'pleasure and joy'.
Yes, Marguerite is definitely being sarcastic with Colombe. I just don't under-
stand what was sarcastic about the reference to 'Christophe'.
But Yes!!! I now see that Eloise has provided the explanation. Christophe Colomb was unquestionably much older than grandmother! ;)
Paloma and Marguerite play a game called ‘Fate’, in which they make up future destinies for the people they know. But Paloma says, “…the most awful thing is not that we’re playing this game, but that it isn’t a game.” These are things she fully expects to happen….a la goldfish bowl.
Here I thought I was fairly familiar with the Dutch Masters of the 17th Century. The names I think of are Rembrandt, Hals, Vermeer, Steen, de Hooch. Now Renee’ lists master artists that I never heard of…
Claesz, Heda, Kalf and Beert, all masters of the genre of still life, which Renee‘ loves. I must investigate.
http://www.nga.gov/fcgi-bin/timage_f?object=72869&image=18888&c=gg47 (Heda)
http://www.nga.gov/images/decor/claeszinfo_fs.shtm (Claesz)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Willem_Kalf_001.jpg (Kalf)
http://www.nga.gov/fcgi-bin/timage_f?object=91389&image=20561&c= (Beert)
You know what entranced me about the bathroom episode? A commode with
multiple choice push buttons for flushing! I've never heard of such a thing. Not to mention musical accompaniment! Ah,...the toys of the wealthy. 8)
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Gum, I didn't notice that the child went alone to Kakuro's apartment! (His secretary was there though, wasn't he? A chaperone?) I guess Maman let her go -out of curiosity about the renovations - which Paloma probably didn't share with her mother after all. Kakuro is an open, affable fellow, isn't he? Perhaps he sends off vibes to the tenants, to everyone - that we can't feel - that he is harmless, and and godlike.
He even invited the concierge to his place - not to just have a look around - but to dinner! And what's more - she says YES! Why did she do that? You'd think her reflex action would have been to pull back into her shell - and refuse him - for any number of reasons. Concierge's don't have dinner with the rich tenants!!! But she said yes - without considering - anything! I guess she really wanted to go - and I don't think it was out of curiosity!
Babi - thank you for your research into still life paintings. I considered every one, trying to understand their appeal. I guess I'm like you, Eloise - I prefer people - or landscapes...I prefer life over still life perhaps.
I know I don't see the Claesz still life as Renée did - this is the very one I believe-
(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:D_ejdK_cz0zNEM::http://upload.wikimedia.org) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Pieter_Claesz_001.jpg/800px-)
Pieter Claesz still life
- click picture to enlarge
Admittedly, I'm not hungry - and it was dinner time for her. She sees it as a slice of life - a meal, wine, a plate of oysters the artist is anticipating as soon as he finishes painting.
I look at a still life painting - this one - as an artistic arrangement, pleasing in placement and color, yes, but something more "contrived" than a desired meal.
I'm reading the quote Eloise left for us to ponder this morning - and maybe I do understand after all - I'm looking at the arrangement - without desire -
In the scene before our eyes-silent, without life or motion-a time exempt of projects is incarnated, perfection purloined from duration and its weary greed-pleasure without desire, existence without duration, beauty without will. For art is emotion without desire.
I'd love to hear a better interpretation of both the charm of still life painting - and what the author is conveying here - what is it that Renée and Kakuro adore about this particular painting?
I just lost a post on the bathroom episode - will respond to you later this afternoon..
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The bathroom episode was funny, but I also felt sorry for Renee in that situation. She had sheltered herself so much that she was much more intimidated by the toilet than the average person would have been. As for the bathroom décor, I find carpet in a bathroom odd. We had carpet in our bathrooms in our rented house in England and we hated it. Talk about a mold trap!
The still life Monsieur Ozu has in his apartment is more appealing to me than some of the others shown in Babi’s links, but I would prefer something “lighter.”
I thought it was interesting that the author devoted an entire chapter, 16. And Then, to just one sentence:
And then, a summer rain.
I thought of several interpretations of this:
The dinner with Monsieur Ozu was a watershed moment in Renee’s life, and she will talk about her life in segments, before the dinner and after the dinner.
My husband’s grandmother used to call a summer rain shower “a cleansing rain.” I imagined that Monsieur Ozu was the shower that cleansed Renee of her feelings of inadequacy.
Rain / water provide life, so the summer rain of Monsieur Ozu will allow Renee to grow and flourish. Maybe Renee will be like the camilla now, visible out in the sun and rain, not like the moss, in the background and unnoticed.
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Babi, Laura - everything about the bathroom episode made me laugh! Especially the way Renée would edit her remarks - almost using euphemisms - or something course, but finally ending up saying just the right thing. And I loved the way Kakuro always answered her with equanimity, accepting all of her blurted out questions as if perfectly natural - which I guess, they were good questionsl
But I am wondering as we are laughing, if you are as puzzled as I am at the choice of music accompanying the flush? Why not Handel's Allelulia Chorus - or something really uplifting? Why a Requiem Mass? - Mozart's Confitatus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXXHYX7zk1c)?
It would be startling to hear this music pouring forth as the toilet flushed. I looked at the translating for the "Confutatis maledictis" - something I think both Kakuro and Renée are quite familiar with - You might find it interesting to hear this in the bathroom -
Rest thy soul in eternal sleep
heaven waits as the earth gently weeps
for you...
Gone the shadow veiling your eyes
Lost your inner light
All beauty dies
Confutatis maledictis
Flammis acribus addictis:
Voca me cum benedictis
Confutatis maledictis
I am without you now
How can I live?
How can I live on?
Oro supplex et acclinis
Cor contritum quasi cinis
Gere curam mei finis
Oro supplex et acclinis
Eternal sleep...
I weep...
I need to hold on to you
How can I let you go?
Dona eis Requiem
I keep you in my heart
Confutatis maledictis
Flammis acribus addictis:
Voca me cum benedictis
Confutatis maledictis
Despite the awkward moments, the evening ended well - - more shared passions and interests. I look forward to your explanations of what went on outside the bathroom door - Can you translate the multiple sighs - the ooh ooh oohs - and the tears streaming down Kakuro's cheeks? Do you see a budding romance?
Laura - wasn't there a refreshing summer rain that fell on Tolstoy's Levin as he was wielding the scythe in the heat of summer? I like your husband's grandmother's "cleansing rain."
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Oh my. I am having different thoughts than all of you.
I see in my mind's eye Renee in Beige-a very neutral color , very much like the main color of the still life. She is dressed up in Beige , not yet ready to commit herself -she is still a STILL LIFE. there, but not moving. Afraid to feel, afraid to arouse emotion in her Japanese swain or would be swain. A person stuck in inaction. A human still life.
The bathroom scene breaks the ice. We and they are humans. If we can laugh we have ceased our pose of still life.
Nothing is more freeing than a good laugh. Nothing releases tension like laughter.
This portends good things to come.
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JoanP, yes, it did rain on Levin out in the fields with the workers. I think he rejoiced in it, now that I think about it.
Jude, I love the idea of Renee as a still life!
I do not see a budding romance between Monsieur Ozu and Renee. I think they will become dear friends. Weren’t the tears because they were laughing so hard after discussing the bathroom toilet?
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Running a bit late - will be in to comment on that "beige" dress and still life, but first the "gym class" beckons.
Since no one has begged for extra time to discuss the Summer Rain chapters, we'll move on to "Paloma" - but PLEASE, if you haven't already read the book - will you not go beyond page 315 this week!!! Don't even be tempted to turn the page!!!
On the other hand, if there are still observations you would like to make on any of the pages before 315 - we'd welcome hearing from you!
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I like still lifes, portraits, landscapes...and a very few of the more modern 'isms. The still lifes, to me, have a richness, a sense of a moment captured forever, and that balance that Mr. Uzo defines as 'harmony'. I enjoyed all those examples I found.
I don't think it the food that was appealing to Renee'. It was the light in the
picture that first caught her eye, then the richness and, yes, the balance.
In “What Congruence” Barbery goes into lecture mode again. The sum of it all is that she believes what makes a ‘great work’, what makes it timeless, is the balance in the arrangement. I suspect that also reveals to us a good deal about Muriel Barbery. 'Balance' is important to her.
Before we got on to "Paloma", there are a couple of things re. Paloma in 'Summer Rain' that I think are important.
Paloma says her father, ’with his republican soul’, has inculcated in her the virus of deontology. Back to the dictionary! Deontology: in philosophy, a theory or examination of the nature of moral obligation. From ‘deon’,= ‘that which is obligatory’.
She is shocked, therefore, that her mother’s therapist believes her threat to spread rumors about him. It only confirms her view of the ugliness of the world, and turns her back to her conviction of the wisdom of leaving it.
Then, Paloma does not recognize the inconsistency of her closure in Profound Thought #13. If we have been ‘placed’ her on earth to perform a specific task, then there is something divine involved. Since obviously not everyone is performing that ‘task’, there must also be a choice and freedom to make it.
Finally, before we go, the subjects Mr. Uzo and Renee discussed, including “the irreducibility of culture”. I do wish she had said more about that, as I have no idea what she means by it. But I love her perception of Kakuro Uzo…”…he combines a sort of childish enthusiasm and candor with the attainments and kindliness of an old sage.”
It is so rare to see someone who has been able to retain that enthusiasm and candor into old age, and so wonderful when one does.
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Joan, a beige dress reminds me that Renée might want to stay somewhat invisible, unnoticeable. I just looked at the Susan Boyle sensation on Utube and she is wearing a beige dress like the one Renée describes. Beige is definitely not my color.
Babi, She is shocked, therefore, that her mother’s therapist believes her threat to spread rumors about him. It only confirms her view of the ugliness of the world, and turns her back to her conviction of the wisdom of leaving it.
Yes of course, that therapist should have seen through Paloma's tirade. He only had to move a little and that might have satisfied her that he was 'normal'. Is rigidity a sign of extreme nervousness I wonder? I am not a therapist but it would certainly make me react in some way.
It is so rare to see someone who has been able to retain that enthusiasm and candor into old age, and so wonderful when one does. YES
“the irreducibility of culture”. I Googled 'exile and the irreducibility of culture' and it is said of the Russian culture in general. For whatever it means, "irréductible" means cannot be reduced.
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Oh don't you see a great resemblance between Renee and Susan Boyle, Eloise - in so many ways! Thank you for bringing that up today and so fitting as Jude brought up that beige dress! I bet that Susan didn't borrow that dress for her TV appearance though.
Before moving from the Summer Rain chapters, let's talk about that beige dress - and then Dr.Theid's shades of autumnal browns and tans...
I like the comparison of Renée as a still life - in a way, she is "contrived" - carefully put together after years of self-education. What we see in this still life didn't just happen. But I am seeing her more as a work in progress rather than a subject frozen in time, incapable of change. Babi - do you think Renee has achieved Balance in her life as a concierge acting as though she understands nothing?
I'm glad we're talking about beige dress. It's borrowed, remember. It's not something Renée has chosen for the occasion - I'll bet anything that was Susan Boyle's own dress that she was wearing in talent performance. OR, maybe she had nothing suitable to wear, and a friend found that one for her?
Before Manuela came up with the dress, I had made a note about what Renée had in her closet - what could she possibly wear to dinner?
Here were her choices -
1. "a sort of white nuptial meringue buried beneath layers of mothballs" (is this her wedding dress?)
2. "her everyday concierge dresses"
3. "a lugubrious black pinafore she wears to funerals."
Renée tells Manuela she has decided on the black funereal dress - (Had she worn the black, she would have fit in with Mozart's Requiem in the bathroom.) I thought it was kind of sad that these were the only clothes Renée had to wear. Between her wedding, and funeral, she has lived her life only as a concierge in this building as an inferior to the tenants.
I hadn't thought of the "ooh ooh oohs" in connection with the hilarious bathroom themes-the tears rolling down M. Ozu's face, associated with laughing so hard. I keep looking for ...more. For a realization that theirs is a special rapport which is turning into more. It's good to read there are other ways of looking at what is happening here - you keep this romantic grounded!
Laura, tell me, at least do you see Kakura and Renée growing closer? Have you totally ruled out romance? Isn't this refreshing new feeling that washes over her like a summer rain - something that she has never felt with any man before - romance?
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Deontology: in philosophy, a theory or examination of the nature of moral obligation
Babi, that word goes right up into our vocabulary list - I'm so glad you brought up the fact that Paloma understands and is appalled (rightfully) when she witnesses Dr. Theid's lack of any such obligation. I'm thinking that Paloma has some sort of moral obligation to let her mother know the doctor is without scruples. He's destroying her mother's mental health!
Traudee, you asked about racial undertones in Paloma's description of Dr. Theid's "autumnal"appearance - "dead leaves" as she described him. While I don't fully understand the emphasis on the tans- I didn't think she was making a racial comment on the color of his skin - except for his "newly minted Seychelles tan".
[The Seychelles are a favorite island getaway on the Indian Ocean - for the rich - I'm not speaking from experience - but I'm sure Dr. Theid can afford to get away to work on his tan frequently - considering what Solange Josse pays him for all those sessions!
Sad, Paloma's views are reinforced after this experience - she doesn't want to be part of such a world -
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I am still immersed in the medical world and taking each day as it comes and though the knitting (and yes, with Antipodean wools) proceeds apace I am finding it difficult to string a coherent thought together. Your words of comfort have meant so much. Thanks to all...
The comparison between Renee and Susan Boyle is so very apt - beige dresses and all - wish I'd thought of it! -
Both ladies are very definitely 'works in progress' Renee has been privately slogging away creating the as yet unseen Renee of the mind - Susan has also been slogging away at her singing - one can't produce a voice such as she has without constant practice. They are both gifted - one with the voice the other with considerable intellect and it may not be too late for either of them.
I am not a fan of the 'still life' - somehow there are always elements within them that appear to be too contrived...like the grapes hanging off the edge of the table, or a knife or tray balanced so precariously that it should fall to the floor - and they are often a little too sombre in the palette choices. But so often the technical artistry in depiction is sublime and then I question my own lack of appreciation.
I didn't see any racial reference in the description of the 'shrink' and took the 'Seychelles tan' simply to mean that he has money and opportunity to escape to the sun. Here in the Antipodes ;) ( at least in West Aust) we call such a tan a 'Rottnest Tan' in reference to a very small holiday island just off our coast. Everyone knows the tan costs a lot to acquire and that it will wash off in a very short time after we come back to the everyday grind.
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Babi said: But I love her perception of Kakuro Uzo…”…he combines a sort of childish enthusiasm and candor with the attainments and kindliness of an old sage.”
I loved that description too, Babi. I couldn’t help but think of Yoda. LOL!
JoanP said: Laura, tell me, at least do you see Kakuro and Renée growing closer? Have you totally ruled out romance? Isn't this refreshing new feeling that washes over her like a summer rain - something that she has never felt with any man before - romance?
Kakuro and Renee are growing closer, especially Renee in her trust of him as another human being. I took the refreshing feeling of the summer rain to be love and appreciation by another human being, something basic we all want and need, but Renee has lacked in her life.
Gumtree, your thoughts seem perfectly coherent to me. Hang in there!
As we move into the next section, I have two things to say to begin:
Renee and Paloma have finally interacted with one another! I thought the page would never come!
It is absolutely killing me to not finish a book with only ten pages left to go!
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Yes, I understand what 'irreducible' means, ELOISE, but I can make no sense of it as it is used here. What does she mean by saying that a culture...Russian or otherwise..is irreducible? How would one go about 'reducing' a culture?
No balance yet for Renee', JOANP, but as you say, a work in progress. As for Paloma telling her Mother Dr. Theid is a fraud, I doubt if her mother would believe it for a moment. After all, her 'therapy' sessions are her favorite topics of conversation and give her a sense of importance. Paloma has shown that she is well aware of this.
GUM, I have to agree that the colors in still lifes..especially the Dutch...are very
somber. I think, tho', that is deliberate done in order to emphasize the light
that draws the eye and attention. And of course, the arrangement is 'arranged' by the artist. No good Dutch housewife would have left that mess once the meal was over! ;)
YODA! Thank you for reminding me, LAURA. A wonderful comparison.
Yes, Paloma finally arrives at Renee’s door, thanks to Colombe’s pique and cowardice and with Mr. Uzo’s previous encouragement. Renee sees in her “a trenchant acuity, a chilly wise way in her”, and concludes with considerable accuracy that Paloma is a 'Judge of Humanity'.
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Babi, do you think that Renee also sees a desperate unhappy child, who has been contemplating suicide. A Judge of Humanity who happens to find the future futile?
Do you think that Paloma was waiting for an excuse to examine the concierge more closely - that Colombe's request was just what she was waiting for?
Once in, she wants to come back. I'm trying to figure out her state of mind. After the appointment with the analyst, this "Judge of Mankind" has been understandably disillusioned and concludes that "it's time to leave a world where something that moves can reveal something so ugly."
But then there's that conversation with Colombe about the bees - Her comments were so full of wisdom - and purpose... from the "Judge"...
"Personally there is only one thing to do:find the task we have been placed upon this earth to do, and accomplish it as best we can, with all our strength...
This is the only way we will ever feel that we have been doing something constructive when death comes to get us."
Death comes to get us - not the other way around? Do you think Paloma's comes to Madame Michel's to hide out until June 16 - or to find a reason to live?
Laura, it's just a few more days - and I know you will understand then why we are waiting.
Gum, we are right there with you - honored that you are sharing with us during this difficult time. Prayer, hugs...we're here, each day, thinking of you.
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All’s quiet today --- I guess everyone is reading.
I think Paloma was glad to have an excuse to visit the mysterious concierge. I think she went there looking for a reason to live!
Besides, I may as will admit it: I don’t really feel like dying. I want to be able to see Madame Michel and Kakuro again, and his unpredictable little great-niece Yoko, and ask them for help (pg. 291).
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No, JOANP, I don't think Renee has any idea that Paloma has had suicidal intentions. I think she is simply seeing a very intelligent, observant child who can, and does, form very accurate opinons of the peope around her. Since the shared understanding between Paloma and Mr. Uzo about Renee, I suspect she has been wanting an opportunity to visit with the concierge. Her curiousity is definitely aroused.
On pg. 243: Poor Renee….or is it poor Prof. Barbery? She does not see the search for beauty and meaning as the sign of an elevated nature, but rather as “a primed weapon in the service of a trivial and material goal”.Trivial? Material? It is “a consequence without consequence of the subtlety of our cortex…”. Alas, Renee/Barbery have accepted the view that all of human nature and intuition can be reduced to chemical and neural synapses. But, “it makes the fufillment of our essential duties more bearable”. Duties?
If we are no more than the sum of our physical parts, why do we have ‘duties’? Ah, of course, ..duties are necessary for our survival as a species. How very dreary.
p.247-8
The universal vs. the singular. Didn’t Plato postulate that there was a ‘perfect’ universal form, and everything material was merely an imperfect copy of that form? And what do Ockham and Plato mean in their use of the word ‘real’? By real, do they mean materially, physically existent? An idea has existence, surely it is also ‘real’. Of course we have basic concepts by which we recognize objects, whether the table here, or Plato’s horse. But I see the ‘idea’, the concept, as a basic pattern in which the object or creature is formed, not an imperfect copy. The basic concept does not have the infinite variety which gives everything its interest, beauty and splendor, so how can it be perfect?
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Hmmm, Laura, yes, it is extremely quiet - which could mean two things...
Perhaps everyone is reading the "Paloma" chapters (up to page 315) - OR there is the other possibility that folks read BEYOND page 316 and are stunned into silence, fearing they will let something slip unintentionally.
Which is it? Hopefully we will learn more today after yesterday's silence.
Did you think that was unlike this concierge not only to open the envelope delivered to Colombe - but to read the whole thesis - and to criticize it? There have been a number of references to moral responsibility - and yet we see many lapses. Is the author saying that this is the nature of the beast?
- We see the psychoanalyst diagnosing the young girl in sound mental health, simply because she makes a veiled threat to ruin his reputation.
- We see the young girl keep this from her mother, because her mother probably won't believe her, as Babi says - but what of her moral responsibility? She concludes that this is how things are in the adult world. Is she right? Is this what the author is telling us?
- We get a look at Colombe's final draft of her Master's Thesis (in Philosophy!) - with hardly a comment on it. Our self-educated concierge does a detailed critique of the paper on William of Ockham's life work - and finds that Colombe has failed to address the most important issues that William addressed. What is the author saying about Colombe - no, what is the author, a Professor of Philosophy, saying about Colombe's professor - the entire profession - education in general?
- and then there is Renée herself - who criticizes Colombe for not using the opportunities given to her - to serve mankind. Do you think Renée has any obligation at all - to use her acquired knowledge for the common good - or to keep her knowledge to herself for her own enjoyment.
- and finally, can someone explain to me what happened at the dry cleaners - when Renée went in to pick up the stained beige dress? Did she know the plum colored dress was not the one she brought in? Someone else's dress? But took it anyway? She really did that? How did you understand this incident?
ps. If you finished the book, please let us know - and we'll figure out how to go on from here. It's better than silence, really it is!
EDIT - BABI, I was typing away while you were! Happy to hear from you this morning. I agree, poor Professor Barbery. Have we happened on the reason she has turned to writing, over teaching? Thank you for your comments - will address them later - as I'm running late right now.
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I have not been able to keep up with my reading because this book is not large print and it is hard for me to read much at a time but I am still reading. I just want to say that I think the book is wonderful. That is a change from what i felt for a while and it seemed to just suddenly happen.
I am not reading your comments here because I am behind in the reading but I will go through the discussion and read all of the comments after I finish the book or if I am able to catch up I will read them then.
Joan Grimes
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Hello everyone. Today I can spend some time at last on the great ideas coming in. Do I detect a sense of hope for Renée and Paloma now that we are learning more about them? I will be back this afternoon. Wonderful posts everybody.
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I will repeat again what I said about the Psychaoanalyst-"He is portrayed as a "Booby". The whole scene is a total farce. Perhaps Opera Buffe is the best comparison.
This book is not all of one piece of cloth. It is the authors first attempt at fiction. There are places where she succeeds and places where she falls flat on her face. I usually see a book as fairly smooth. I like it or I don't . This book has excellent elements i.e. the writer shows promise. It also has parts in which I feel she needed to do a rewrite or needed a better editor.
The symbols of the color of her new clothes are meant to move the action or feeling forward in a pseudo-symbolic manner. It seems so simplistic compared to the attempt at deep philosophic thought that comes and goes as we read along.
On page 251 we have Paloma's take on her sister's thesis on William Ockhams' "Sum of Logi"c. Now no matter how bright she is she can't possibly analyze this theory and wipe aside all her sister's arguments in one fell swoop of super-dooper deep philosophical thought. First of all the fact that Colombe is at University and studying Philosophy shocked me and made me wonder why this fact was not mentioned before.
It also made me wonder if perhaps the author is portrayed partially as Colombe who has an annoying younger sister who was hard to live with? Or is she making fun of all the "stupid" girls who learned philosophy with her? Or perhaps stupid pupils she has been forced to teach?
Again, I am meeting the author and not her characters. w
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Right Jude, Muriel Barbery is a new novelist but in a link posted earlier she explains herself in more detail and she says how surprised she was that her novel became such an instant best seller.
Again, I am meeting the author and not her characters. I am wondering if it prevents you from enjoying it. In a certain way I feel that authors write about themselves most of the time. If this novel shows only promise as you say, I wonder how popular her future novels will be because right now this one is a huge success worldwide. Thank you for this fine analysis, it makes one read more in depth.
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It is school vacation in Massachusetts, and the grandchildren have been here several times.
I haven't had the time to get to the questions in the header, let alone answer posts. But I have a free so here I am.
First, I find myself in agreement with Babi and Jude on various points and will get to them.
But first some replies to questions.
JoanP The envelope with the manuscript "is open. Wide open, without ver having been sealed closed . The adhesive strip still has its white protective strip ..."
Renée did NOT actually OPEN it. Of course she read it. This is another built-in opportunity for the author to shine.
I am aware that 'Seychelles' refers to the island archipelago in the Indian Ocean. Well-heeled Europeans started visiting there a few years ago. The islands are named after Jean Moreau de Séchelles, Minister of Finance under king Louis XV of France. Vasco da Gama discovered them.
The 'doctor' could conceivably be a native. The moniker "fat marron glacé" is yet amother example that Paloma can be as caustic in her remarks as Renée (who refers to Coloombe as Her Majesty Colombe de la Riffraff (!). This latter is of course another arrow pointed at society by the author.
In fact, the author skewers French society mercilessly in this book, and it is surprising that it became a bestseller there first. Nota bene, however, there have been critical voices as well.
BTW "a marron glacé is a small confectionary".
There is no evidence that Renée had any idea of Paloma's suicidal thoughts.
Question # 4 needs to be examined more closely, and the 'banlieus' have to be explained.
More later
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P.S.
The color beige certainly suited Renée. Manuela liked the dress on her, and so did Kakuro.
But it had not been HER choice.
Nor was the purple dress, which she accepted after the beige one could not be found at the dry clearners'. She felt remorse, but she walked off with it nonetheless. That dress too was a success on her.
Question # 5. The only "laconicisms" in this book is the Haiku poetry IMHO. Many other passages are quite dense.
Question # 9. Kakuro's magic words "You are not your sister" and "Wew can be anything we want to be" were Renée's final release.
Question # 10. IMHO class differences have always existed, and class struggles were the underlying cause for the French and for the Russian revolutions, for example.
Noteworthy in this connection is the essay The Revolt of the Masses by the Spanish philosopher José Ortega y Gasset.
In haste
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We seem to find it easy to accept that Madame Michel does not find anything upsetting or abnormal, certainly not suicidal in Paloma's behavior and yet find fault with Dr. Theid for sending her out of his office after one conversation. She had come to him, not because she felt she needed his help, but because her mother had sent her to him. Rather than cave to her threats, perhaps he really felt she was wasting his time - and her mother's money. Is it possible that what we heard from Paloma about his caving in to her threat was simply her own interpretation?
I'm trying to see him as less of a quack, a "booby" as you put it, Jude. I want to excuse his conduct as Paloma was clearly playing games with him. (Traudee, I still fail to see racial undertones here, honestly. A "newly minted tan" describing Dr. Theid's skin color - does not indicate to me that he was born in the Seychelles, but rather had just returned from vacation on the Josse family's dime.)
I will concede that Madame Michel did not technically unseal the envelope containing Colombe's Master's thesis, Traudee, but she surely read it.
Jude, wasn't it the concierge who analyzed the thesis? I'm going to have to look at that again. I agree, Paloma could not possibly have done so.
But I agree with you - the very fact that Colombe is studying Philosophy, writing her Master's thesis on William Ockham seemed out of character from what we had seen previously of her. I had much the same feeling when it was revealed that Paloma, a complete loner, had a best friend. Suddenly Marguerite is in the picture, Paloma's confidante, visiting Kakuro's apartment with her.
JoanG - take care of those eyes! Continue to read in slow, brief sessions, just as you have been. I'm so glad you are enjoying the book. I am too - though I do agree with what has been said - there are some awkward moments - and more proof-reading could have caught some of the obvious typos. I still find many delicious, exquisite moments that more than make up for the rough spots.
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Babi - you hit the nail on the head - Renée sees her acquired knowledge - her education as making "the fufillment of her duties more bearable”. You're right - that is dreary. And in light of what she said about Colombe and those who have been well educated having an obligation to use their knowledge for the common good - it makes Renée's use of her own knowledge - quite, well, quite selfish, in a way, doesn't it?
Really, is that what happened in the dry cleaners? They gave her a different dress, the plum-colored one - because they lost the beige one??? I'm finding that hard to believe!
By the way, I was surprised to hear that you found that Kakuro actually complimented Renée on her appearance in that dress. I must have missed that. I was looking for a reaction from him after her "makeover" - and was satisfied when there was no reaction, that superficial appearance did not matter to him - it was the real Renée that he was seeing - the rest didn't matter. She could have been wearing her concierge uniform for all he cared. That's how I took his lack of comment, at any rate?
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Because the envelope with the thesis in it was wide open, I was not surprised that Renee looked in it. However, I was surprised that she read the whole thing, and delayed getting it to Colombe to do so. Yes, there are contradictions in thoughts versus behavior in the book. To me, the thoughts represent some idealized situation that could not be replicated in the real world, and therefore, the real world cannot live up to the expectations of the ideology.
Renee leaving with what she knows is the incorrect dress without alerting the clerk at the dry cleaners had me laughing out loud again at her! She really is hilarious! I love her inner thoughts!
To the chapter of my turpitudes I must now add the abduction of a dress that does not belong to me, in place of one stolen from a dead woman, by me.
At first I thought she didn’t want to raise a fuss and just left, but as I read on and found out she wore the dress, I realized her moments hesitation was not about making a fuss, but about whether or not she could get away with taking it and wearing it! Too funny! Wrong, but funny!
JoanP said in response to Jude: … the very fact that Colombe is studying Philosophy, writing her Master's thesis on William Ockham seemed out of character from what we had seen previously of her. I had much the same feeling when it was revealed that Paloma, a complete loner, had a best friend. Suddenly Marguerite is in the picture, Paloma's confidante, visiting Kakuro's apartment with her.
We must remember that what we are learning about Renee and Paloma are what they are choosing to reveal to us via their own writings. Therefore, we are getting an extremely biased view of how they perceive the world and how they feel about things, often their feelings are those in particular moments and are often changing, especially with Paloma. Yes, those revelations did come as surprising to me too, but I can only imagine what else is going on around Renee and Paloma that we are reading nothing about.
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Laura Thank you for quoting the phrase regarding the purple dress, I was just looking for it. The scheduled Final Thoughts period may give us a chance to talk more about the structure of the book as we as readers see it, its raison d'être, so to speak.
Incidentally, Barbery wrote an earlier novel published in 2000. Titled "Une Gourmandise", it features a food critic (a progenitor of M. Arthens??). The English translation of that first book is due out later this year, clearly because of the success of the "Elegance of the Hedgehog".
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All the hype about Mme. Barbery's "next" book, is actually about the publication of "Gourmet Rhapsody" which will be available in the US on August 25, 2009 - but as Traudee said, it was published as "Le Gourmandise" in 2000. As Jude pointed out, the author is just beginning her second career as a writer, and I am really interested to learn what she has written after Hedgehog, which was published in France in August 2006. Please let us know if you hear anything about her latest work.
Traudee, yes, Pierre Arthens is the same food critic in Gourmandise - a summary -
"In the heart of Paris, in the posh building made famous in The Elegance of the Hedgehog, the greatest food critic in the world, is dying. Revered by some and reviled by many, MonsieurPierre Arthens has been lording it over the world’s most Here, as in The Elegance of the Hedgehog, Muriel Barbery’s story celebrates life’ssimple pleasures and sublime moments while condemning the arrogance
and vulgarity of power"
The translator, Alison Anderson, is the same who translated Hedgehog. Mme. Barbery must have been satisfied with her work.
Somewhere I've saved another interview with the author, which reveals more about the Hedgehog characters...
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Here are some further revelations regarding Hedgehog from Elizabeth Floyd Mair, a Times Union freelance writer, with the author-
How did the idea for these characters come to you?
A: Renée, the concierge, was a secondary character in my first novel. I ended up reading some of the chapters of “Gourmet Rhapsody” several years after it had been published — totally by chance, because the book was buried in my library. And as I was reading I recalled something my editor had told me. In the original manuscript, I had Renée talking in a way that was extremely crude, stereotypical; she came across as a caricature of a concierge. My editor said : “You’re a novelist, anything is possible; your concierge could just as well express herself like the Duchess of Guermantes.” I remembered these words and I suddenly had the urge to attempt the voice of a well-read and erudite concierge; I sat down at my desk and wrote the first pages of “Hedgehog.”
As far as Paloma is concerned, she emerged a little bit later and rather by chance during the rewriting. My husband (and first reader) found the character interesting and suggested I give her a voice.
Q: When you were writing, did you move back and forth between the two characters after a few pages, the way the book does? Or did you spend more time with each character before returning to the other?
A: Well, I wrote more than two hundred pages in which there was a single voice, that of Renée. Then Paloma emerged. I then changed the voice so as to insert the new chapters of the young girl between those of the concierge. Finally, I had almost finished using this technique of alternating voices. Only a few chapters from the end did I begin writing both characters concurrently.
Interview conducted by Elizabeth Floyd Mair (http://blogs.timesunion.com/books/?p=1349)
I sensed that, did you - that the author was writing the two narrators concurrently at the end? Especially when she got down to the similar motivations of each - when she spoke about the reason why kids burn cars -
Laura, of course you are right, the revelations are coming from the two narrators, who choose to relate incidents of their lives in their own good time...it doesn't really matter - to them- if we were prepared when they revealed new information!
Traudee, is there anything you would like to say about the structure of the book now, rather than wait? Are you refraining out of a concern that you may reveal the final pages?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/hdghogcvr.jpg) | "Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -
"Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1836659,00.html)
The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence from a world she finds meaningless. The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27
April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129
April 13-16 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170
April 22-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325
Final Thoughts | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/DavidTroodG460.jpg)
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For Your Consideration
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs.316-325
1. Do you find yourself wishing that the book ended before the "My Camellias" chapter? Did the preceding chapters prepare you for such an ending?
2. How did the swings in mood and tone from scenes of comedy to moments of tragedy affect your reaction to the novel? Was it important or distracting to hear from the altenating narrators?
3. Who are Renée's Camellias? What new information was revealed in her final thoughts of each of them?
4. Why does Renée believe that Manuela will feel remorse for the dry cleaning incident? And then, why did Manuela collapse with the words, "forgive me" on her lips?
4. What are Renée's final thoughts of Kakuro - and "what might have been"?
5. Why does Renée begin to cry at the thought of Paloma, the daughter she never had? What does she wish for her?
6. "The important thing is not the fact of dying, but what you were doing in the moment of your death." What does Renée say she was doing?
7. Do you think it was significant that Renée died while trying to help the homeless drunk who ran into the traffic?
8. Why does Paloma feel shame when she learns of Mme. Michel's death? Did she ever really intend to commit suicide? Had she understood its meaning until now?
9. On what note does the author choose to end the story? Were you affected or changed in any way by this book?
10. How would you rate this novel on the whole, the writing, the storytelling, the message? Would you be interested in reading another novel by the same author?
Do you feel that the translation from the French text reflected the exact meaning the author wrote? Were there hard to understand words or sentences? How do you rate this translation?
Relevant Links:
Online Dictionary (English) (http://www.thefreedictionary.com);
Glossary of posted Definitions (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/glossaryhedgehog.html)
French-English Dictionary (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt);
Hôtels particuliers (http://images.google.ca/images?hl=fr&q=hotels+particuliers+in+paris&btnG=Recherche+d%27images&gbv=2); An Interview with Muriel Barbery (http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/?author_number=1656&Barbery-interview);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Eloise (eloisede@sympatico.ca )
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Paloma says about the umbrella stand for her mother’s birthday gift. ‘Don’t you find it disturbing, on some level, to think that an umbrella stand can cost two hundred and eighty-nine euros? And yet that is what Hélène paid for this pretentious object in “fatigued leather” (my foot: rubbed with an iron brush maybe) with saddlemaker’s stitching, as if we lived on a stud farm. “fatigued leather” Too funny, I love this kid.
Now we are beginning to see a Renée coming out of her shell dressed up in the plum-coloured dress, hair puffed up going to Kakuro’s apartment to view the film. She says: I have abandoned the idea of hiding my new appearance from the world. And low and behold she comes face to face with Madame Pallières who immediately notices the hair, the tray with Manuella’s patisseries and she takes that opportunity of talking down to Renée “As you are headed that way, would you water the flowers on the landing?” Not taking into account that Renée was off on Sundays.
I wonder Joan if Renée could have had a job more fitting of her knowledge and intelligence considering her physical appearance and her lack of any diploma or certificate. Can you picture her in an interview?
At least as a concierge she could better pursue her passion for reading, something she couldn’t very well do somewhere else. Who would have taken her seriously had she been employed in an academic institution for instance?
Traude, I am not sure that the author is skewing only French society? There are people everywhere who like to make people feel inferior because they have more money or an academic degree they can flaunt at inferiors.
Satire on a grand scale.
Joan, how interesting about Pierre Arthens.
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It also has parts in which I feel she needed to do a rewrite or needed a better editor
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I agree with you there, JUDE. It was Mme. Michel who read the thesis, tho'.
I suspect the reason that Colombe's studies were not mentioned before is that the author decided to add that bit so she could discuss William Ockham. She also criticizes the attempt to distort Ockham's work to fit a students own theories. Which makes me wonder if she was especially annoyed when her students did that...as I'm sure they often would.
No, JOANP, you are right. The dry cleaners didn't 'give' Renee the dress. The employee pulled out the wrong dress by mistake. Renee found the dress so tempting she took it, with the intention of returning it after her evening with Kakuro. Unethical, to be sure, but surely very human.
Renee is breaking out of that mental image she had of herself. Remember
that sense of underlying entrapment in her words, “..here am I, Renee, 54 years of age, with bunions on my feet, born in a bog and bound to remain there,….”[/i] She is beginning to believe she is not bound to remain there.
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JoanP, you said "Especially when she got down to the similar motivations of each - when she spoke about the reason why kids burn cars."
Is "she" the author, and where does she (and in whose voice) explain why kids burn cars? I remember Paloma referring in one of her Profound Thoughtgs to kids burning cars in the banlieues but no specific explanation.
I'm in a rush again and don't have the time to check the book now. Could you please point me to the right spot? Thanks in advance.
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I found the reference in Paloma's Profound Thoughts No. 15 in the last full paragraph on page 254.
But it does not contain an explanation of why kids burn cars - in the banlieues or anywhere else, only questions.
"Journalists talk about unemployment and poverty; I talk about te selfishness and duplicity of my family. But these are all hollow phrases. There have always been unemployment and poverty and pathetic families...." etc. down to the last two sentences,
Why do people burn cars? Why do I want to set fire to the apartment?"
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I made a note about those kids in the banlieues burning cars, Traudee, because I thought it important in explaining why Paloma is/was thinking of burning her apartment - and why Renee hides her intelligence under a bushel basket in her loge.
Paloma sees kids burning cars in the banlieues of Paris - on TV in Madame Michel's apartment and wonders why they are doing such a senseless thing. She begins to wonder why she wants to burn her own home down. Later that day when shopping with her aunt and cousin for that expenseive umbrella stand Eloise describes - she has a profound thought that provides the answer. (This all starts in Profound Thought #14 - Traudee - continue to the restaurant where the shoppers stop for lunch. They meet a couple with a little boy they had adopted from Thailand after his parents died in a tsunami. Paloma's profound thought occurs as she thinks about his future, and how he will manage growing up in a culture with values not his own. After you read those pages, starting on the last line of page 254, I would like to know if you think it explains Renee's alienation from her environment. Did you wonder why Paloma likes and accepts this wealthy aunt and uncle, but not her own family?
Babi - you say you wonder whether the author was especially annoyed when her students distorted their research to fit their own theories - I'll bet she was ...and I think she had a beef with professors who accept such mediocre work without comment - perhaps the entire education system is at fault.
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Eloise, I really don't know what Renee could have done with all her knowledge - but she could have done something other than to hide it, couldn't she? Was it really poverty that kept her down - or was it something within, that she feared to venture out into the world. This is modern France, not the 19th century! Surely she could have done something with the knowledge she had acquired.
No, I don't see Renee coming out of her loge and making any major life changes just yet , El, - but as you say, she no longer intends to hide from the world. Have you noticed that she is letting others (besides Manuela) into her secret world now? That's quite a change. She's running a mini salon here in the concierge's quarters, much to the puzzlement of the wealthy tenants. There were many humorous moments, weren't there? All mixed in with the philosophical. I think it is the humor that makes it work - at least for me. I'd have given up trying to follow William of Ockham a long time ago, if it wasn't for the fun mixed in.
I have a hunch about that plum dress mix-up - went back and read the whole passage more closely once again. Tell me what you think -
Manuela stops in the concierge's loge to hear all about the first date . She sees the mess Madame has made of the beige dress. Tells her that it doesn't matter, because Maria says she can keep everything, including the beige dress, but that Madame Michel will have to pay the dry cleaning bill.
When Manuela learns that her services are needed again for another date in Kakuro's apartment, she is so eager to help - she offers to prepare not only the gloutof, the whiskey tarts, tuiles...in other words, she overdoes it for her friend. When Renee went to the dry cleaner to pick up the beige dress and the girl came back with the plum, Renee didn't say that it wasn't her dress - but I'm wondering if Manuela didn't take another of those dresses that Maria said she could have - and give it to the dry cleaner to give to Renee when she came in to pick up the beige? I wouldn't be surprised if Manuela did that - though I am a bit surprised that Renee walked out with a dress she knew was not the one she brought in.
What does that say about her character? Perhaps that she wishes to look really nice once again when she goes up to watch the film with her new friend?
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she could have done something other than to hide it, couldn't she?
(JoanP)
I don't know, JOAN. As a practical matter, given her background and need
to keep a low profile, I find it difficult to think of any way she could have used her knowledge for the benefit of others. Her reading is her solace.
I remember when we were talking about Renee’s attitude toward the rich and privileged, and I felt it was because they wasted their opportunities their privilege gave them? On p. 252, I found support for that. She says “..privilege brings with it true obligations”. And on the same page,: “The only thing that matters is your intention; are you elevating thought and contributing to the common good.,”
That sounds as though Renee is not practicing what she preaches, unless you consider that she is speaking of the opportunities open to the rich and privileged. She has never had those opportunities. Within her very small circle, only Manuela to begin with, she does hold a good intention and tries to contribute to their common good.
I have, incidentally, misjudged Manuela. She is not buying expensive pastries nor cadging them from employers. She is herself a pastry cook par excellence!
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Yes, Babi, and Manuela's sister is also a talented baker, it says somewhere.
JoanP, may I say that I have difficulty with "vocarious gloutof"?
Éloïse would you help, please? See Chapter 5. The Antipodes.
I have never heard of "gloutof" . The term is not listed in my Larousse French-English/English-French dictionary, nor in my French Larousse thesaurus.
There IS a delicious Alsatian bundt cake called Kugelhopf (aka Gugelhupf and similar variations). My mother baked it often. So did I, in my baking days.
Here is a link. As you may know, linking is not my forte. Forgive me if it doesn't work.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browser/kugelhopf
Please note that Idon't mean to be finicky about 'voracious' in connection with "gloutof" by whatever spelling. We know what it means and use it often, e.g. in 'voracious reader'.
But with respect, how CAN a CAKE can be 'voracious'? Those who eat it, yes. :)
P.S. I'm sorry, the link did not work for me. I'm sure you have better luck.
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Eloise, I do think Renee could have had a different life path, if she had chosen to try. She resigned herself to her position as concierge, not unsatisfied because it allowed her to study on her own. However, I think she sold herself short.
Joan, that is an interesting idea about Manuela “planting the violet dress” for Renee to pick up at the dry cleaners instead of the beige one. Building on your idea, could that moment when Renee paused to think have been when she realized what her friend had done and accepted her help? Hmmm…
I want to point out my favorite passage in the book (so far, anyway), an exchange between Renee and Monsieur Kakuro on page 303:
“They didn’t recognize me,” I say.
I come to a halt in the middle of the sidewalk, completely flabbergasted.
“They didn’t recognize me,” I repeat.
He stops in turn, my hand still on his arm.
“It is because they have never seen you,” he says. “I would recognize you anywhere.”
How true! Renee’s clients have never seen the real Renee, and certainly never taken the time to try to see the real Renee. How powerful that statement Monsieur Kakuro makes is!
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Me, too, TRAUDE. My response to 'voracious gloutof' was "Huh?". I wonder if gloutof is simply a corruption of the word 'kugelhopf' (or gugelhopf)?
I can't really see Manuela involving the dry cleaners in a scheme to get another dress to her friend. She has demonstrated that she is very persuasive; 'planting' a dress just seems too far-fetched.
Oh, yes, LAURA. That is a great passage and a powerful observation. A line I
thought great was “Eternity; for all its invisibility, we gaze at it.” That was from Paloma. Later, still in self-analysis, Paloma says “…for some unknown reason, I am hypersensitive to anything that is dissonant.”
Well, that is a necessary beginning, but having recognized one’s vulnerability,
…or weakness…how does one learn to deal with it? Not everyone does.
Ah, Barbery writes of the music from Dido and Aeneas, and makes me long to hear it. This is not the first time she has evoked that yearning in me. “Broken steps, melting sounds.” What an ear for music she must have, and what a gift for expressing what she hears. “Art is life, playing to other rhythms.”
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http://www.aftouch-cuisine.com/recipes-theme/gloutofs-alsatian-cake.htm
Traude all I could find in Google was that it can be different recipies including a marble chocolate cake. Manuela says it "keeps" I guess she means that it can stay fresh for a day as usually French pastries are bought and eaten on the same day. I find that the author likes to use unknown and foreign words and we have to run to Google to find out what they mean. I like Google better than looking something up in the dictionary. There is more choice and it's faster.
In the 6th chapter the translator had to be an acrobat to translate the conversation going on between Renée, Manuela and Kakuro. I had to double check several things because that seemed so unlikely. I must praise Allison Anderson for the trouble she went through and Barbery takes many liberties, for me it makes the book more interesting. She translated "poudinngueuh" and "rutebi" with "pudding-ghe" and "roog-eby", what else could she do considering they were pronounced by French people.
Babi here is one rendition of Dido and Aeneas by Purcell that I found on Utube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRbFrOP8rgs
I understand what you are saying about Renée selling herself short Laura. Of course she is but because her childhood was so attrocious, I am not surprised that she has so little self esteem. I would not think that not sharing her knowledge and intelligence was selfish, she didn't think anybody cared about that and for me her voracious reading was her solitary heaven. Had she had any children, it would be different because she would have shared with them.
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Can you stand yet another Susan Boyle comparison? There is another home video out this morning - she's singing at her parents' golden anniversary when she was 25. You've all heard of Susan Boyle - even in the Antipodes, Gum.
I can't watch this video too many times - without thinking of Renée. Will put it here again in case you haven't seen it - or would like to see it again...and again...Be sure to press the little red botton following the volume icon to get the full screen. You can press ESC on your computer to minimize it again.
Susan Boyle - on Britain's Got Talent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lp0IWv8QZY&feature=related)
Susan has a gift - she hasn't become a star with her star-quality voice before this - because she hasn't had an opportunity to do so. Does this sound familiar? She lives at home alone - with her cat. But that doesn't mean she hides her talents. She has been singing at her church, family gatherings, funerals...her brother says that whenever she sings, the room falls silent. Last week she sang the Ave Maria at his mother-in-law's funeral and stunned the assembled. She is using her gift - to serve the common good, wouldn't you say? Here's the video from her parents' anniversary when she was 25 years old -
Susan Boyle sings for parents' anniversary (http://www.casttv.com/susan-boyle/susan-boyle-jesus-christ-superstar/3y85vc)
I try to keep in mind that Renée is living in the 21st century. There is no good reason why she couldn't have used her knowledge - for the good of others. There must be so many organizations that could have used her knowledge. Libraries, for one. Couldn't she have volunteered in classrooms, or youth groups. How about writing? She was so quick to analyze and find fault with Colombe's thesis...why not try her own hand at writing (as Madame Barbery did.)
Well, we know now why she kept her talent hidden...she has confessed it all to the quiet child, the Judge of Humanity who held her hand as she explained her fears.
Exactly what was she afraid of? What is she afraid of now? It's safe to say she was traumatized by the death of her sister. Do you sense that she is fully recovered now that she has confessed to Paloma - put into words something that she has told to no one before?
What was Paloma's role in the healing process?
I was going to comment more on your posts - but I used up available time watching 47 year old Susan Boyle come out of her shell on that stage. We can only hope that Renée has this same opportunity at 54!
She's free now to do anything she wants to do, be anything she wants to be. What do you think that will be?
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Joan, I am trying to compare the two, but I can only see a resemblance in the fact that they are both past 45, they both are very talented, both are overweight, is there something I am missing? I see more of a difference than a resemblance.
Susan is unemployed and freer to volunteer, perform and share than Renée. Susan is prettier, outgoing, friendly, funny and generous. She has a healthy self confidence. She seeks fame and fortune. In a couple of years when she has become famous, she will be slimmer, without a double chin, her hair-which is a mess-will be fashionably coiffed, her eyebrows will be thinned out from the bush she is wearing over her eyes. Then she will be downright beautiful when fame has caught up with her and made her rich.
Renée is probably beyond getting thin, never will be pretty or get to perform in front of an audience to display her brilliant mind and vast knowledge she acquired from a mishmash of philosophy, music and art gathered here and there by haphazard reading and not acquired within a structured academic environment. She is a loner, has an unforgiving nature, is resentful and critical of the wealthy and would not think of volunteering. She is so afraid of letting anyone know she is intelligent that it makes her sick when somebody accidentally finds out what books she reads.
Psychoanalysis would/might be able to bring her out, but right now only romance can rescue her. Will it be Kakuro? Well I hope so.
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There are differences, aren't there.... Both were 12 years old when they became aware of their talents. Both are rather frustrated because they are unable to share their talents with the world. Susan B. had a dream, but no opportunity. Somehow she learned to sing the way she does. Was she an autodidact do you suppose? Our Renee has no opportunity to do anything with her knowledge - no dream either.
But now we know why! Susan Boyle's mother always wanted her to do something with her voice. It was her dying wish, contrary to Renée's parents' attitude - conveyed to the child - that she was doomed to the punishment of death " if I ever sought to make good use of my mind in defiance of my class.'
It's the 21st century! But Renée's parents are living in the ignorance of the past! Paloma's parents are hip, modern and upper class - and yet they have little understanding of how their values are affecting their child.
Why do kids in the suburbs burn cars? Why does Paloma talk of burning down her own apartment? Why is Renée living her whole life in secrecy?
ps. El, the bushy brows and gray roots are gone...a $57 makeover!
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On Page 286 Chapter 12, Sisters, Renée talks about the time when her sister came back from the big city. Lucien says:
A mother who loves her children always knows when they are in trouble. Personally, I do know much care for this interpretation. Nor do I feel any resentment toward that mother who was not a mother. Poverty is a reaper: it harvests everything inside us that might have made us capable of social intercourse with others, and leaves us empty, purged of feeling, so that we may endure all the darkness of the present day.
This to me is why Renée became the woman she is. Not only because of poverty but also rejection from the only person who could demonstrate love because poverty alone does not cause one to become anti social. Poverty leaves one empty without feeling and with a hard armor she can endure some kind of normalcy in her life but poverty without love creates people like Renée.
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Since you are talking about Susan Boyle - here she is singing Cry me a River fthat someone found.
http://www.njnnetwork.com/njn/?p=9212
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That was kind of you, ELOISE, but my lament at wishing I could hear
Dido and Aeneas was because I've lost the last of my hearing. I might
possibly be able to hear a baritone or basso, but I doubt it. Now I have
a new loss to regret...not being able to hear Susan Boyle, who 'stunned'
people with her beautiful voice.
I also found the phrase you quoted..about poverty...to be greatly significant in explaining Renee. I also made a note of what immediately preceded your quote. Renee’s remembrances of her mother: “this coarse woman who brought her children into the world in the same way she turned over the soil or fed the hens, this illiterate woman, so exhausted by life that she never even called us by the names she had given us…” Barbery’s description of a poverty so grinding, an isolation from the modern world almost unbelievable, goes a long way toward explaining Renee’ Michel.
Paloma's role in Renee's story of her sister's death seems to me to simply be to listen. But that is exactly what Renee needed. Her shell is beginning to crack and she needed someone she felt she could trust, in order to lance that festering old wound. On pg. 277, you can find “The peace of mind one experiences on one’s own, one’s certainty of self in the serenity of solitude, are nothing in comparison to the release and openness and fluency one shares with another, in close companionship.”
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Oh wow, Marj - I'm listening to "Cry Me a River" as I type - Susan B. sounds like she is singing from the bottom of her soul - doesn't sound like someone who's never been kissed, does she?
The similarities between Susan and Renée continue - this, from the site you brought us -
Susan suffered a mild form of brain damage at birth and she admitted to Sawyer that she was bullied when she was younger. “They did a bit,” she said, “but they always do that with someone who is quiet and I tended to be quiet at school.
She was quiet at school, but began singing for her family - keeping her voice from those outside her home.
The major difference between the two - as I see it, was parental support -
Susan said in the same interview when Diane Sawyer asked what she would say to her late parents if she could, she replied: “I would like to say thank you for supporting me over the years, thank you for looking after me and I hope I can make you proud.”
Eloise made the point yesterday - speaking of Renée's parents - "Poverty is a reaper: it harvests everything inside us that might have made us capable of social intercourse with others."
Babi, do you think the author is making a general comment about the effect sof poverty on all parents who live this life? Do you agree with this generality?
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I see from the calendar that we are ready to move on to the final chapter. While others are reading those last ten pages, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the significance of the falling rosebud. I can see it's importance to the story, but really don't know what it is. I agree a rosebud is beautiful, but when a rosebud falls, without ever opening, that makes me sad. Paloma sees Beauty in the movement between life and death - watching the beautiful bud fall to its death.
Babi - I think the importance of the Dido and Aeneas music - is in Purcell's words - important as were the words of Mozart's Requiem. I'll go see if I can find them.
when I am laid in earth
am laid in earth
may my wrongs create
no trouble no trouble in thy breast
remember me!
remember me!
but ah!
Forget my fate!
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MarJ, thank you for Cry Me a River. This singer has the perfect pitch that usually is achieved after long years of training. In Cry Me a River, the chords change almost every bar and the singer has to have a perfect ear not to sing off key. She has that capacity and I haven't read anything yet about any training she could have had in the past. It seems to me she has a natural talent and at this rate she should make it to the top charts within a year.
When she says she didn't have the opportunity, perhaps it is because she lives in a small village or that she wasn't free to leave her aged mother to pursue her career, very noble of her, more things to make her the darling of the media. .
Babi, I am sorry that you lost your hearing, It is a great loss and it is hard to imagine what life would be without being to hear. My sister lost hers quickly apparently because of other health issues. She is taking lip reading lessons, but it’s a long process.
I look forward to what you will all say about the last pages.
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I too, am looking forward to reactions to the last chapter, Eloise. Could Mme. Barbery have ended the book before the "My Camellias" chapter? Did the preceding chapters prepare you for such an ending?
Please let us know what you thought!
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Eloise
Thank you so much for the beautiful rendition of Dido and Aeneas by Purcell. I went further on this site and lastened to the version by Jessy Norman. Oh, it is even more beautiful !
Death laments of this type are often beautiful but leave one rather despondent afterwards
So I listened to an amazing CHINESE choir putting on songs in Yiddish and Hebrew in honor of the Holocaust memorial day.
My spirits were lifted and it is time to go to bed.
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I couldn’t fully appreciate the image of the dead rosebud falling of the stem, before it even had a chance to bloom, until I finished the book. I believe that the rosebud is a metaphor for Renee; she died just as she was about to bloom, but never had a chance to fully reveal herself, like the flower of the rosebud had not yet revealed itself.
The ending was shocking! Yes, the author could have ended the book before this final section. However, the reader would have been left with many unanswered questions.
When I read that Renee had been killed, my first thought was that her death would lead to Paloma’s suicide. Thank goodness Renee’s death had the opposite effect on Paloma and she resolves to live.
And, in the end, I do think there could have been a budding romance (pun intended) between Renee and Monsieur Kakuro.
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No, JOANP, I don't think so. There are degrees of poverty,
of course, and Renee's family seems to fall in the category
of 'grinding'. But more than that, the family seems to have
been somewhat isolated from the mainstream of progress. Generations
of this kind of life can produce what one might call 'stunted'
families.
ELOISE, I did at least have the good fortune(?) of losing the hearing
in one ear as an infant. I have therefore been in the habit of
looking at people's lips as they speak all my life. This is of
great help now. Of course, not everyone enunciates clearly, and
one friend must be reminded to remove the cigar from his mouth when
speaking to me. I now carry a small notepad with me, and when I
am wholly unable to understand what someone is telling me, they
are very nice about writing a short note.
A Chinese choir singing in Yiddish! How wonderful. Thanks, JUDE.
For Renee, first Mr. Uzo and now Paloma. “I sat there for countless minutes holding hands, not speaking. I have become friends with a lovely 12-year-old to whom I feel very grateful, and however incongruous this connection may be…….nothing can taint my emotion.”
What a nice added surprise this was, the reappearance of a changed Jean Arthens. His father dies, and Jean is resurrected. Does that seem a stretch? My attention was caught by the simple line, “I wasn’t very talkative in those days….well, in my father’s days.” Arthens, Sr. was one of those our sensitive Paloma referred to as ‘nasty’ people. I suspect Jean Arthens simply couldn’t bear the awareness of what/who his father was. But what a happy
discovry this was for Renee.
“And I wonder how well I myself can see.”
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Jude, Very soulful and sad, but Jessy Norman sings it to perfection I agree. Did you think that Renée had a premonition of her death?
Paloma says: In any event, Kakuro and I went down to the loge. But while we were crossing the courtyard we stopped short, both of us at the same time: someone had begun to play the piano and we could hear very clearly what they were playing. It was Satie. I think, well, I’m not sure)but anyway it was classical).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBiPQKK1upk
I thought that Gymnopédie by Satie is appropriate at this time, what do you think?
And, in the end, I do think there could have been a budding romance (pun intended) between Renee and Monsieur Kakuro.
Isn't it sad when we were starting to have hope that Renée would finally find happiness?
Babi, I wonder if it is not often the case when a father dies and the eldest son suddenly realizes he is at the head of the family. It happened to me and I can even say that he still has that role even after so many years.
Paloma in the end becomes so mature.
Don’t worry Renée, I won’t commit suicide and I won’t burn a thing.
Because from now on, for you, I’ll be searching for those moments of always within never.
Beauty in the world.
Don’t you love those two hedgehogs in the end?
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Eloise
Again much thanks for making it so easy to go to the site of Erik Satie's Gymnopede for the piano. I was not familiar with the work previously and felt it was extremely appropriate to the circumstances of Renee's death.
Sometimes music is more meaningful than words. I reread the chapter of Renee's demise. The author describes the last thoughts of this woman who ,lying on the street, dying, says good-bye to all that is precious to her.
Sadly, my sarcastic mind sees each good-bye tied up with a pretty pink ribbon.
Paloma is now "cured" of her suicidal thoughts and desire to burn down her parents home and all that is precious to them.
Sorry to say that this is a crock-although a pseudo clever crock. If you have ever known suicidal teens or those so angry that they wished to burn homes(or cars) you know that losing one of the people who have meaning for them doesn't calm them but creates even more sorrow and unrest. Although not neccessarily suicide. Anger at others replaces anger at self which is one of the main causes of teen suicide.
Mr O. is a more psychologically together character and holds things together for me as he did for others. But it is his Vietnamese Aide who witnessed the accident and makes a practical attempt to help.
In giving a final overview I ,personally, have learned much more from the participants posts and in depth comments than I have from this book. Many of you have wide swaths of knowledge , which have made coming back to the site a fascinating experience.
So thanks to the leaders and the other exceptional folk who have so unstintingly given so much time and thought to the discussion.
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The ending was shocking, I'll agree with you, Laura. Was it necessary for Renée to die? You're right, there would have been so many unanswered questions. Were they answered? Did Renée have to die to answer the questions?
Eloise asks if Renée had a premonition of her death. I can't help but remember the lesson she had learned when Lisette died (beautiful Lisette, dead because she was beautiful, but poor, doomed because she tried to make it in another world - a fallen rosebud?) Renée realized then that she was intelligent as Lisette was beautiful, but poor. She would be doomed to a similar punishment if she ever sought to make good use of her mind in defiance of her class. So if this what happened? Is this her punishment for the moments of joy and happiness? Eloise, perhaps this was her premonition? Did she know this would have happen if she dared defy her class? Is this the moral of the story?
Babi, don't you wish Renée could have survived the way Jean Arthens did? The camellias gave him hope. Renée referred to her three camellias, Manuella, Paloma, M.Ozu. They helped her to see that she could be anything she wanted to be. But I have to ask again - did she have to die?
Jude, I am thinking of what you said - "each goodbye wrapped up in a pretty ribbon." I thought that myself when she thought of everyone - including the cat - and Olymphe. I would have been satisfied if her final thoughts went to Manuela, Paloma and M. Ozu, her camellias. With all the detail, the real message tended to get lost - in the moss.
Don't you feel Paloma was leaving behind her suicidal thoughts before the accident? I did. I don't think Renée had to die for her to realize that. Paloma felt she was healed...by helping Renée...
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Jude said: Paloma is now "cured" of her suicidal thoughts and desire to burn down her parents home and all that is precious to them.
Sorry to say that this is a crock-although a pseudo clever crock.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree that it would be a crock if Paloma were indeed cured by Renee’s death. However, I don’t think Paloma’s writings about suicide were seriously thought out, let alone intended to be carried out. I think she thought she was suicidal because she was able to think and write about what she could/would do, but, aside from savings a few sleeping pills, did nothing that truly indicated her intentions to actually commit suicide. For these reasons, I was fine with the ending. I think Renee’s death helped her realize how “not serious” she was in her suicidal thoughts.
Joan, I’m pondering your questions. More tomorrow.
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The Ronsard poem:
ROSES
RONSARD, 1550.
I send you here a wreath of blossoms blown,
And woven flowers at sunset gathered,
Another dawn had seen them ruined, and shed
Loose leaves upon the grass at random strown.
By this, their sure example, be it known,
That all your beauties, now in perfect flower,
Shall fade as these, and wither in an hour,
Flowerlike, and brief of days, as the flower sown.
Ah, time is flying, lady--time is flying;
Nay, 'tis not time that flies but we that go,
Who in short space shall be in churchyard lying,
And of our loving parley none shall know,
Nor any man consider what we were;
Be therefore kind, my love, whiles thou art fair.
The death of Renee’ Michel does seem an easy out, as though the author did not quite know how to continue satisfactorily with the progress of her story or bring it to a realistic conclusion. Or perhaps she just felt that to leave with wounds healed, at a time of happiness and contentment, is better than to go on with life and it’s inevitable troubles to come. If life has it’s valleys and mountain peaks, is it better to stop on the mountain?
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http://www.vertpomme.net/pages/innocence/les_roses_de_ronsard.htm
Vivez si m'en croyez
N'attendez à demain
Cueillez dès aujourd'hui
Les roses de la vie !
Pierre de Ronsard
Thank you Babi for Ronsard's poem. So apropos.
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I haven’t decided if Renee had to die. However, I do think that how she died is significant --- she was running after Gegene, “the tramp” who was drunk at the time. She died trying to help a person of a lower class than herself. I doubt that her clients in the building would have chased after him. I am not sure exactly how this bit fits into the overall theme of class divisions, but I feel it must.
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Laura,
At various times yesterday and today I've tried to express my feelings but, try as I might, nothing gelled, nothing sounded right. Your last post gave me the impetus I needed. Thank you.
Also, I totally agree - could not agree more - with the preceding posts.
Summing up after an intense discussion is not always easy, especially not in this case because questions remain, and some of them are unanswerable. What, then, IS one to make of this book that became an international bestseller even though it has no plot, no driving action, no steamy sex (considered essential these days) ? Perhaps a phenomenon. Fine and good.
But the praise is not universal.
For one thing, the book's ending is precipitate, baffling and leaves the reader hanging.
I'm glad we have another day to ponder.
Even though there were subtle red flags, for example in the titles of the book's last section.
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"That all your beauties, now in perfect flower,
Shall fade as these, and wither in an hour"
I loved the Ronsard poem - thank you, Babi! I can understand the beauty of Paloma's rosebud better now. She was observing something beautiful - short-lived, but I think she was talking about the importance of appreciating the present.
Eloise...such a lovely sight - and sound! Another Ronsard, the same message!
"Don't wait until tomorrow -
Gather today the roses of life.'
Does anyone know who said:
"GATHER ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying"?
Laura, I'm going to go reread something before responding to something you wrote today...
Traudee - we were typing at the same time. I agree with you, this is a difficult book to evaluate - easier to find the problems, than to look for the strenghts. With the time remaining (we can stay open a few extra days ) - I'd like to be sure we consider the strengths too. We are looking forward to hearing your comments.
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Well, Laura, the more I think back and see all the references to death, the falling rosebud, Mozart's Requiem, the "lugubrious" black funeral dress that Renee almost wore to dinner with Kakuro - before Manuela interfered with that plan - everything was pointing to death, wasn't it?
When you couple the fear from childhood that she would be doomed to similar punishment as her sister if she "ever sought to make good use of her mind - in defiance of her class." with what you just pointed out - "She died trying to help a person of a lower class than herself."- I think we are getting close to something - but WHAT?
Paloma, too wise for her years, in my estimate, concluded in an earlier chapter - it is not the fact of dying, but what you are doing in the moment of your death. She was actually trying to help the homeless tramp. But did you notice what she says on p. 320?
"What was I doing in the moment of my death?" I had met another, and was prepared to love."
So we seem to have at least two issues here, breaking class barriers - and opening oneself to love - while we may?
I'm going to have to go back and reread the chapter when grandma went to the nursing home...Paloma made an observation - something to the effect that if you fear what the future holds, you aren't building the present, which will be tomorrow one day. Mme. Barbery said it better, but to me, I think this was probably the most important message to me.
What was yours?
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JOANP, "Gather ye rosebuds..." was by Robert Herrick, but it's message
is somewhat different, I think.
Another quote from the thoughtful Paloma...… “But if, on our world,
there is any chance of becoming the person you haven’t yet become
….will I know how to seize that chance, turn my life into a garden
that will be completely different from my forebears?”
Someone wondered why Renee's death did not make Paloma even
more angry and bitter. Perhaps that quote gives us an idea of
which direction her thoughts were taking. And her conclusion that
that there is ‘an always within never”.
Perhaps the most important message to me was the line I posted earlier:
“And I wonder how well I myself can see.”
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I don't know quite what to make of this book. The class struggle plays a strong part and I think Barbery is saying that friendship (and love) transcends such man-made barriers - that friendship is possible between those of such differing backgrounds and personalities as we find in Renee, Paloma, Manuela and Kakuro. They just need to open themselves to the possibility as indeed did both Renee and Paloma.
I certainly don't see Barbery's message as being that one must not cross the lines - that would negate all the progress made toward alleviating illiteracy and poverty around the world. Perhaps she is saying that there are too many Renee's in this world who hide their natural talent through fear or lack of opportunity or simply because they don't want to be seen as 'different' - much as Paloma hides her intelligence from her family, her teachers and her classmates.
I was not 'shocked' so much as startled at the surprise ending. Renee's death definitely appears as though Barbery is calling up her deux ex machina to resolve her story. My assumption is that she either couldn't continue her story or just simply couldn't pull the threads together for a satisfactory ending. Either way, this reader was left up in the air and somehow dissatisfied.
It's very difficult to say what my thoughts are - There are, of course, passages that are quite beautiful in content and beautiful in expression and many are filled with deep thoughts but it is sometimes difficult to grasp the meaning of the thought in relation to the characters so perhaps a little less introspection and a little more action could have been beneficial.
The insights into the text offered by everyone here were very helpful - as always Seniorlearn discussions are the best!
Thanks to all and especially JoanP and Eloise for leading us.
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"And I wonder how well I myself can see.” Babi, isn't that a remarkable thing for any prepubescent-almost-teenager to say? I think as we grow older, we have to ask ourselves that same question - because it is easy to get set in our ways - and opinions, don't you think? Without considering that others just may have a point.
How did you all feel about the shifting back and forth between Paloma's musings - and those of the concierge? Did it add anything to your understanding or enjoyment of the novel? What purpose do you think Muriel Barbery had in mind?
I'm wondering if her role is to question the very things that Renée takes for granted? Paloma isn't old enough to consider the lines as uncrossable that Gum refers to. In a way, she must be dissatisfied with the lines the way they are drawn, or she wouldn't be talking about taking her own life to exit such a world. But her journals seem to be searching for a different way. I think Renée has accepted things the way they are - with bitterness.
But again, did she have to die to make the point that lines can be crossed? Wasn't that clear from the preceding chapter? What was gained by Renée's death? Gum, I want to believe that it was more than the fact that Mme Barbery didn't know to end the book! Maybe it was to demonstrate the need to live for the present - because despite all careful plans and hope for the future, you can get run over by a truck just like that!
Gum, you are so very welcome! Honestly, the pleasure is all mine - ours. I believe there are wonderful philosophical thoughts, references to beautiful works of art and music - and the the book is beautifully written. I knew that the SeniorLearners would leave no rock unturned in unearthing all of the nuances of this gem!
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Thanks Joan and Eloise for the email reminding us it was nearly over - as I shared in the email I became so busy with a seller and a couple of buyers that the last thing I wanted to pick up at night was a book listening to our concierge whinging away rather than making the effort to make friends.
I was caught back on page 98 and where there were some remarkable bits of philosophy offered up Renée absolutely drove me up a wall and so the book languished on the sofa. Last night did a forced read and read it right through finishing up at 5: this morning.
Explanation for her attitude unfolded but I could not get into it - I was looking at her more like a specimen under glass - Having known so many wounded in childhood there are so many ways they get on in life with or without therapy and so I thought her childhood was being offered to us the reader as the reison d'être for her push me pull me behavior and what I saw throughout the book this snob attitude about acquiring knowledge - the admirable qualities seem to be an understanding of the arts, philosophy, history etc.
As to our 12 year old Paloma, I could buy her advanced intellect and awareness of human nature but to have the social and emotional maturity of someone much older I just could not put together with again knowing kids with a high IQ - the scene that I could not buy and yet, was key to Renée's growth was Paloma listening with a sad face and giving her the comfort and space she needed to pour out her story which Paloma says is giving her hope. Like an Al-anon or ACOS meeting but to impute her character with that much emotional and social maturity was more than I could buy and so again the characters became like a specimen that showed an exercise is the emotional growth opportunities needed by those who are wounded by life.
Now did anyone else run the Amazon and order the move - I did - found a copy for $10 - it won't be here till Friday and then the author Jiro Taniguchi - I've got a used copy of his 'The Walking Man' coming as well -
I love what folks have shared about the beige matching her life and the plum her phoenix rising - which confuses me why the death. The only thing I could think of maybe it is that in life once we have an answer for our reason for being we have completed that life cycle.
I loved how well the author could inject humor - love the bit about the dogs in the hall - the ironic tone that Paloma used was a hoot - and then to see Barbery actually gave Renée a funny scene with the singing water closet was refreshing -
Thanks for the translation - that was a great help. I kept looking on line for an English translation and coming up zero - but then I was thinking Mozart wrote it in Latin and maybe not.
I am glad I plowed through but I must say I enjoyed the Guernsey Potato Pie from last month more than this one.
What did catch my eye was the style of writing - the chapters that were from Paloma's voice were in a different type than the chapters from Renée - but more that technique of two stories told simultaneously - the first time I remember encountering that technique was reading Haruki Murakami's Kafka on the Shore - there was a bit of it used by that British author who wrote Atonement, forget his name and then a few months ago I read David Liss' new book The Whiskey Rebels where he used the devise to tell the story from two perspectives.
There were flashes in this book that reminded me of reading Haruki Murakami and it may be because of the Japanese influence that Barbery includes in her story.
I also enjoyed the natural connection that appears in French centered novels with both Russia and Japan or rather Asia - I am working with a young women now who is Chinese Indonesian and just came from living and working for 5 years in Paris. She wears her clothes with such quiet elegance for a young women still in her twenties - reminds me of the difference I noticed when I first visited.
And then describing the taste of the various foods in the book was so French - seems to me we only recently talked about Lace Almond Tuiles that were also included in the Sunday food basket. I'll have to make some to have when the movie arrives.
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Part of that I have to ask is it her perception of herself or was she really such an ineffectual blob - because before she rises to wearing plum she had planted the Camilla that had a profound affect on the young man when he was at his low point in life. And so we can all have a positive affect on each other just as I am sure Manuela was grateful for the time she spent with Renée.
That is the question isn't it - what makes us feel we can risk a change in our perception of ourselves.
And Joan ;) I am really saying whinging - its not a mis-print for whining. The word meanings are sort of close but to me someone who whinges sounds less whiny and more in control of their justification for complaining.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/hdghogcvr.jpg) | "Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -
"Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1836659,00.html)
The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence from a world she finds meaningless. The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27
April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~ pgs.31-129
April 13-16 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170
April 22-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325
Final Thoughts | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/DavidTroodG460.jpg)
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For Your Consideration
April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs.316-325
1. Do you find yourself wishing that the book ended before the "My Camellias" chapter? Did the preceding chapters prepare you for such an ending?
2. How did the swings in mood and tone from scenes of comedy to moments of tragedy affect your reaction to the novel? Was it important or distracting to hear from the altenating narrators?
3. Who are Renée's Camellias? What new information was revealed in her final thoughts of each of them?
4. Why does Renée believe that Manuela will feel remorse for the dry cleaning incident? And then, why did Manuela collapse with the words, "forgive me" on her lips?
4. What are Renée's final thoughts of Kakuro - and "what might have been"?
5. Why does Renée begin to cry at the thought of Paloma, the daughter she never had? What does she wish for her?
6. "The important thing is not the fact of dying, but what you were doing in the moment of your death." What does Renée say she was doing?
7. Do you think it was significant that Renée died while trying to help the homeless drunk who ran into the traffic?
8. Why does Paloma feel shame when she learns of Mme. Michel's death? Did she ever really intend to commit suicide? Had she understood its meaning until now?
9. On what note does the author choose to end the story? Were you affected or changed in any way by this book?
10. How would you rate this novel on the whole, the writing, the storytelling, the message? Would you be interested in reading another novel by the same author?
Do you feel that the translation from the French text reflected the exact meaning the author wrote? Were there hard to understand words or sentences? How do you rate this translation?
Relevant Links:
Online Dictionary (English) (http://www.thefreedictionary.com);
Glossary of posted Definitions (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hdghog/glossaryhedgehog.html)
French-English Dictionary (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt);
Hôtels particuliers (http://images.google.ca/images?hl=fr&q=hotels+particuliers+in+paris&btnG=Recherche+d%27images&gbv=2); An Interview with Muriel Barbery (http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/?author_number=1656&Barbery-interview);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Eloise (eloisede@sympatico.ca )
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Barbara, thank you for your thoughtful post. - I know how annoyed you were at Renée's "whinging" - ;D (did you coin that term?) - not doing anything to help herself - but complaining about how others were condescending to her. - Can you blame them? She was purposely playing the role of a moron, not the refined concierge. Did you notice that young people were able to see something in her - not only Paloma, but Olymphe, Jean Arthens - even the Pallieres boy made an attempt to engage her in conversation. She was showing no respect for herself, how could she expect others to have treated her any differently?
Do you think that without her "friends" she ever would have come out of her shell - or would she have continued with her solitary pursuit of learning - for the rest of her life?
That is the question isn't it - what makes us feel we can risk a change in our perception of ourselves. Barbara
If you had to choose one, which one do you feel had the most influence on Renée's emergence - her friend Manuela, who gave her the necessary confidence to socialize with Kakuro Ozu, or was it Kakuro, who helped her to see that she could be anything she wanted to be, regardless of class lines. Or do you think it was Paloma who insisted she tell the real reason she was turning down Kakuro's invitation to celebrate his birthday with him - and then listened quietly and sympathetically while she relived the memories from so long ago that had traumatized her through the year? It was probably all three, but if you had to say one, who would it be?
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well I saw for a long time Manuela was caught in Renée's web - so that Manuela simply responded to a change that was offered to Renée - and then it was Kakuro who saw past the impression she was creating for the benefit of her role as concierge - and so I would say he was the one who rattled things up so she could no longer hide behind the curtain she had encircled round herself.
Again I thought using Paloma as the one to sympathetically listen was too unbelievable and yet, there was no other character who could have played the part. She was certainly the key figure for the turning point in Renée's life which I saw as the climax and therefore stating a theme - I still cannot figure out and would love to hear other opinions on why end this with her death. What is the message - I could see her and Kakuro remaining friends without a [sex] interest and so the idea that was the only other alternative doesn't strike me as a reason for her death. I was not tied to her to want to imagine more about her future life and maybe other's were but to me it was like killing off a character in the book and why? So she could say all those neat things as she summed up her friends in a nutshell?!? The idea that she had no place to live after she rose up out of her concierge job description - so - in a story we do not have to figure out the rest of her life - her death still puzzles me.
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JoanP, sorry not to have posted. fial thoughts. I've been under the weather ever since we had 93 degrees one day and 55 the next. Will try tomorrow.
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"Startled" I think expresses it very well, GUM. It is so unexpected.
I also felt Barbery simply did not know how to resolve her story.
I agree, JOANP. My favorite line is something one would more likely see
in an older person than a teen-ager. I see Barbery's thoughts in much of
what Paloma has said. Who knows,...much of Paloma may reflect Barbery at
that age.
There were so many small gems, we couldn't possibly bring them all in.
What on earth for example, is "catless autism"?!! So, if one has a cat, one is not entirely unable to form a relationship? It’s a very clever phrase, but I’m not at all sure what Renee’ meant by it.
And, As a cat person, I stop to appreciate this comment. “..I take the measure of how the ridiculous, superfluous cats who wander through our lives with all the placidity and indifference of an imbecile are in fact the guardians of life’s good and joyful moments, and of its happy web….” I must point out, tho’, that cats are not by any means imbeciles. Granted, some are smarter than others, which is equally true of us humans.
I found so much to think and about in this book, and the posts of other
readers was such a stimulus. Despite a few flaws, I think this has been a remarkable book and I'm so glad it came up for discussion. My thanks and appreciation to Joan & Eloise.
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How did you all feel about the shifting back and forth between Paloma's musings - and those of the concierge?
I enjoy reading books told from two or more viewpoints. That way, the reader is able to see and hear the story from different points of view, which is especially important in this story where the two narrators are unconventional big thinkers with unique views of reality.
If you had to choose one, which one do you feel had the most influence on Renée's emergence - Manuela, Kakuro, or Paloma?
Without a doubt, Kakuro. He was the one who really saw Renee differently than others and started the ball rolling to get to know her, and to get her to reveal her true self. Manuela and Paloma were assistants in that process, but Kakuro was the leader.
The only thought I can come up with on why Renee had to die has to do with fate, which I don’t think was touched on in the book, so it doesn’t seem “right.” Therefore, I go back to the idea of live life while you can because it is fleeting --- you never know what is around the corner. I am not quite satisfied with that either, but I am not one to brood over authors’ choices; I accept them as part of the story they wanted to tell.
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Traude, I totally agree “For one thing, the book's ending is precipitate, baffling and leaves the reader hanging” . For me a good book always ends too fast. On the other hand, knowing that ‘les gens heureux n’ont pas d’histoire” happy people don’t have a story so she ended it on a dramatic tone not to be trite.
As Gum said: “My assumption is that she (Barbery) either couldn't continue her story or just simply couldn't pull the threads together for a satisfactory ending. Either way, this reader was left up in the air and somehow dissatisfied.” It depends on whom she is addressing herself to. I also like a happy ending, but the French are usually more pessimistic and their fiction often ends in death.
Renée knew she would be laughed at if she so much as hinted that she had more knowledge as any of the tenants in her building and no one really cared about what she did, what she really was until Paloma and Kakuro appeared on the scene. But for someone like Renée acquiring knowledge was mainly something to feed her ever curious mind, it was her leasure, her secret passion.
Further I don’t quite understand why someone in her building over the past 20 years would not have related to the concierge in the proper way. Those couples all had children that would have interacted with the concierge. I don’t mean become friends with her but at least treat her with more respect and consideration. There are inconsistencies in this novel, but I will gladly forgive her this minor thing because of the quality of the prose.
Babi, my view is that this book remains a gem on several fronts, but certainly not on an effective plot, but I want to attribute that to Barbery’s inexperience as a novalist. This novel was not planned out normally if I go by her interviews about the book. At first the story was about Renée, then her husband persuaded her to include Pamela and as many have said, the narration was too often the author’s own philosophical views through the words of a 12 year old and that didn’t quite make it for readers.
I want to thank all of you for gracing this discussion with your fine posts, it was a pleasure to be here.
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Eloise and Joan P,
Thank you for this discussion. I probably would not have made it through the book without your encouragement and I am glad that I read the book.
I have enjoyed reading the posts. They were wonderful. Thanks to all who posted and helped with the understanding of this book.
I am sorry that I could not keep up but I did finish this book late last night. I am still pondering it all.
Joan Grimes
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JoanG, I am so delighted to hear that you finished the book - in short sessions, to protect those precious eyes of yours! Congratulations! It's even better to hear that you liked the book.
Babi, you make me wish that we had kept a list of expressions, rather than the glossary. Barbery's own expressions - such as "catless autism." (What did she mean by that, by the way? We could have had a whole new discussion such as this!)
Eloise, I didn't know that Muriel Barbery's husband persuaded her to include Paloma to voice the author's own philosophical views! (She should have finished the book before asking for his criticism.) Laura, I think the author had to include another voice - we would have tired of hearing Renée's philosophical musings without another voice. Renée seems to have learned about life from her books, from the observations of writers and poets - Paloma from her observation of others, reducing them to the lowest common denominator.
I found Manuela to be the most interesting character in the book. Before everyone else, she recognized Renée's "elegance" - and paid homage with her exquisite offerings. She and Renée had many delicious conversations about the tenants. They both knew weakness of character when they saw it. When Kakuro Ozu arrived on the scene, a lesser person than Manuela might have been jealous, wanting to protect her only friendship. But Manuela was a true friend. She did EVERYTHING she could to foster the friendship developing between the new tenant and the concierge. EVERYTHING.
So what I don't understand - her words when she learned of her friend's death - "forgive me." Why on earth did Manuela need forgiveness?
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No really new final thoughts come to my mind. What concerned me in the book during our excellent discussion bothers me still. Questions still exist, especially about the last full paragraph in the chapter 11, Existence without Duration and the phrase "...purloined from duration and its weary greed."
The meaning of this is a complete mystery to me.
I have the notion that the ideas came first for Barbery. Philosophy is her métier, and she may possibly resent the idle rich, like Renée (see the social criticisms.) Then she constructed the characters around the ideas and theories. The opening salvo about Marx makes it abundantly clear that the concierge is an intelligent woman. Neither Renée nor Paloma are, to me, convincing for all the reasons we have mentioned before. Renée's obsession with hiding her natural intelligence makes no sense. The juxtaposition of the two narrators' musings (for wont of a better word) are a little too cleverly constructed. Right or wrong, I feel strongly that the whole exercise was designed to highlight and showcase the author's unquestionably brilliant mind.
As [/b]Laura[/b] said, the book is uneven; the ending comes too soon. If the author had introduced a different widely known still life byPieter Claesz, namely the one known as Vanitas (it pictures a skull), we might have gotten the idea of an imminent death earlier. In concur in that Renée's death was not necessary. Incidentally, Lucien and Lisette are indistinctly drawn and remain pale background images.
Manuela admired Renée, and Renée loved her like a sister. Manuela was her only friend until Kakuro came ont he scene. How very sad to find out now that only in death did Renée address her in the familiar second person singular. Why on earth would she do that? A letdown for me.
Many thanks to our DLs for this phenomenal endeavor, and the same to all participants.
Now it is time for me to give due attention to our May book, Loving Frank by Nancy Horan., and to return to the Raj summation.
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The author has left us with many unanswered questions, Traudee. Here's yet another one - did she do this intentionally? To make us think - long after we put the book back on the shelf?
Or - perhaps she feels she has provided the answers. (Maybe that is why she shies away from interviews? ;))
I'm remembering the start of the discussion, someone, perhaps it was you, Eloise, who said that each time she reads this book, she finds something new. Makes you wonder how many times one must read the book to find answers, doesn't it?
There are several who have indicated that they are finishing up - we will remain open another day or two to hear from them. In the meantime, we'd love to hear more from those of you who have finished.
One more little note here on my desktop on Manuela. Remember that Renée referred to her as true "aristocrat" early on in the book? Did you notice that at the end, Kakuro Ozu referred to her, his cleaning lady, as an aristocrat? How did you understand that?
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Traude said: How very sad to find out now that only in death did Renée address [Manuela] in the familiar second person singular.
Were Renee and Manuela not really good friends? How did Manuela address Renee? I felt like the bubble of my view of their friendship had burst when I read this.
JoanP said: So what I don't understand - her words when she learned of her friend's death - "forgive me." Why on earth did Manuela need forgiveness?
I don’t understand this either! The only explanation I have come up with is that Manuela assumed that Renee was out on an errand having to do with her new found relationship with Kakuro. Because Manuela had “forced” Renee to wear new-to-her dresses and go to the dry cleaner, Manuela assumed that Renee would not have been out, presumably going to the dry cleaner, when she was killed. Manuela assumed that Renee would have been holed up in her concierge apartment.
However, we know that Renee was out on an errand required of her as concierge --- to buy brass polish --- and from what I can tell, Renee’s death had absolutely nothing to do with Manuela or Kakuro.
With regards to Eloise (?) finding something new each time she reads the book:
I don’t think I quite got everything in the book. When I got to the end, I felt like I wanted to reread it so that I could appreciate all the imagery in the book that I might not have caught the first time.
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I noted Renee's last thoughts about Manuela, [i]"the aristocracy of the heart is a contagious emotion, so you made of me a woman who could be a friend."[/i]
Manuela was to Renee an 'aristocrat' of the heart.
One definition of an aristocrat is a person who has the tastes, manners, etc., characteristic of members of an aristocracy, such as the nobility. Manuela had
a nobility of the heart, and she shared her manners ('walnuts should always be eaten at the table') and her tastes with her friend on a basis of equality.
I no longer have the book, so I can't go back and re-read the part about Manuela saying "Forgive me." I don't remember that. Funny the things we
catch and the things we miss.
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I know that I missed many things in the book. I feel that I need to read it again also but will not try to do that because of my eyes. I really wish that I could read it again.
Joan Grimes
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Laura, in answer to your question i # 291,
Yes, Renée and Manuela were best friends, so special that one would have expected them to talk to each other in the second person singular, using the personal pronoun "tu", rather than the "vous", which is second person plural. (The French verb form changes accordingly.)
Wherever French is spoken, family members and good friends address each other with using "tu" in French; an adult talks to a young child using "tu". Everybody else is "vous".
But in English, everybody is "you" to us: family members, friends, teachers, annoying marketers, even strangers who ask for directions.
Only in Biblical readings do we still see the old-English versions "thou, thine, thy" e.g. Thy will be done; Thine is the kingdom; if thou doest well etc.
Why Renée did not give Manuela, her only friend and confidante, the "tu", is incomprehensible to me. I do hope I have answered your question satisfactorily.
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This has been my second reading of this book and I think there will certainly be a third sometime in the future. The first time through, I read it rather rapidly, absorbed in the story and the characters, gliding over what I did not understand of the philosophical concepts. I liked having 2 different narrators - all stories are many-sided. I never for a moment thought that Paloma would actually commit suicide - she was dramatizing herself in the way of teens and was in love with the concept but glossing over the reality. What did rather surprise me was Renee’s sudden emergence from her cocoon as a well coiffed and gowned dinner guest of a cultured gentleman. I did not expect her to die so suddenly! However, if one were to carry out the analogy of the newly emerged flying insect, one would expect a brief life.
The second reading on a whole different level with the discussion group has been a real eye-opener. I have learned so much from you all and am deeply grateful. This is truly a multi-faceted book and ,as I believe Eloise said, can be read many times discovering something new each time.
One new thing I discovered was the Japanese film director, Yasojiro Ozu, a real person mentioned in the book as a distant cousin of Kakuro Ozu, the fictional character! On looking at his bio, I saw this “…films infused with the Japanese concept of ‘Mono no aware’ - an awareness of the impermanence of things.” This does fit, doesn’t it!
This is the middle of the night and I’ve just had a strange dream of a Japanese style banquet served on French Limoges china - my philosophy professor of 64 years ago, Max Black, was there and disapproving of me!
This is why I got up and am posting this!! Our Hedgehog does have a very profound effect - a mark of a great book.
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Thanks for the explanation, Traude.
We don't know if Manuela addressed Renee with tu or vous. I would assume that both would be using either tu or vous, so maybe both were using vous.
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The importance of saying « tu » or « vous »
Renée says dying about Manuela. “Now that I am about to die, I shall say tu to you at last.” Meaning that she had never said “tu” to her before. It is not surprising because in France the "tu" is not as common usage as here in Quebec where we are Americanized, I would say in that respect but when I meet someone for the first time, I automatically say “vous” to them. Saying “tu” means that we are becoming or will become friends and that can take some time.
Granted Manuela and Renée were good friends but there always remained this old fashioned etiquette between them that is still the norm in France. But the “tuiles” with their afternoon tea gave us a hint of the quality of their rapport. "vous" is more respectful than "tu"
I said “vous” to my mother, but I wanted my children to say “tu” to me. Children today say “vous” to their teachers who say “tu” to them, my grand children tell me. I say “vous” to almost everybody I just meet except someone much younger. My children say “tu” to almost everybody.
Traude explained it very well she is a Linguist who dealt with language idioms all her life. She is the authority on the matter.
All I can say finally about this book is that it is superb, a book to reread as Joan said. It is a gem of hidden meanings that are just superbly put down. The words in the mouth of a concierge only makes a situation more humorous sometimes and I laughed out loud so many times because in my mind I pictured what Renée looked like and even what her facial expressions were while she was responding to the snobbish tenants who looked down on her. I could visualize her new appearance when she went to K’s apartment all dressed up.
I think the translation was very well done, but I have to say you can’t translate a culture, and throughout the book the French culture oozes out like a pressed orange and I couldn’t see that flavour in the English version.
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"a Japanese style banquet served on French Limoges china.. "
JOANR, what a perfect description of this book! It now occurs to me that
early and tragic deaths are a very popular theme in Oriental cultures. More
more it appears that there is a strong Japanese influence in Ms. Barbery's
writing.
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We won't soon forget this book, the characters and the ideas in it. I agree with everything that has been said.
Éloïse, you give me too much credit. We were fortunate to have had your linguistic guidance in this adventure, something only a native speaker is able to do. It is true that a translation cannot always fully convey the characteristics, customs, and indeed the very essence of a different culture. Your analogy is brilliant. :)
The participation was simply wonderful.
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Thank you everyone, especially our leaders Joan and Eloise! As always, I learned so much and got so much more out of the book than I otherwise would have reading on my own. Talk to you all soon…
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Thanks, Laura, everyone. You are all so very welcome - but honestly, you are the ones Eloise and I must thank for making this discussion as rich as it has been - on so many levels. As you say, JoanR, there will probably be second or third readings of the book - but this time together has been extra special and enriching, truly unforgettable..
There are still unanswered questions, but I feel that Mme. Barbery intended it that way for the most part. The ending, for example. Gum assumes that the author couldn't continue her story or just simply couldn't pull the threads together for a satisfactory ending. But, Gum, isn't life that way? Do we really get the chance to pull all the threads together? Perhaps that's the point Barbery is making. It is the present that counts. Appreciate the beauty of the rosebud, it will be gone in an instant - sometimes before it comes to full bloom. Let friends know what they mean to you, today. These are the things they will have to remember you by when you are gone. Who said this - "Live each day as if it's your last, because one of these days, it's going to be." (No, it wasn't Yogi Berra, was it?)
Some of you thought the frequent references to philosophy were overwhelming. Barbery said in an interview -
" I followed a long, boring course of studies in philosophy", I expected it to help me understand better that which surrounds me: but it didn't work out that way. Literature has taught me more. I was interested in exploring the bearing philosophy could really have on one's life,"
One of the philosophers she frequently refers to is Kant, who teaches that the only way we get to know truth, to know the world, the universe is through observation. Certainly Paloma is making careful observations of her world. But the next time I read this book, I'm going to have to watch Renée more carefully. I'm afraid she bases too many of her assumptions on literature, letting preconceived notions cloud her understanding of people.
Perhaps Barbery is saying - we are all like the hedgehog to some extent, "guarding our innermost thoughts and feelings, protecting our vulnerabilities behind an emotional armor of sharp little spines." We are so grateful to you all for opening up, expressing your innermost thoughts with us in these discussions.
Of course, we hope to hear from each and every one of you in the near future!