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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
Our First Group Discussion of the New Year!
Do join us here during January and February.
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/wivesdaughters/wivescover.jpg) |
Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
The best-known of her remaining novels are Cranford (1853), North and South (1854), and Wives and Daughters (1865). She became popular for her writing, especially her ghost stories, aided by Charles Dickens, who published her work in his magazine Household Words. Her ghost stories are in the "Gothic" vein. |
You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Chapters I - V ~ January 2-3-4-5
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Some Things to Think About
Chapters I-V ~ January 2-5 (til Molly departs for the Hemleys)
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER I. THE DAWN OF A GALA DAY
What are your impressions of the characters that are introduced in Chapter 1?
What do you think of the world and society described in the first chapter? Have you formed initial likes and dislikes of the lives that are described?
CHAPTER II. A NOVICE AMONGST THE GREAT FOLK
What are some of the highlights (or lowlights) of Molly’s visit to the Towers.
CHAPTER III. MOLLY GIBSON'S CHILDHOOD
How would you compare Betty and Miss Eyre?
What do you think of Molly’s childhood?
What instances of humor have you noticed in Gaskell’s writing?
CHAPTER IV. MR. GIBSON'S NEIGHBOURS
How are Mr. Gibson’s neighbours described? How does he act with each of them?
CHAPTER V. CALF-LOVE
What is the prescription that Mr. Gibson writes for Master Coxe?
What proverbs and mythic/classicalreferences did you notice in this chapter?
What do you think of Mr. Gibson’s plan to deal with the situation with Coxe?
DL: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com ), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
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The vote between Elizabeth Gaskell's 19th century novel, Wives & Daughters and William Least Heat-Moon's Blue Highways published in 1982 was extremely close from the start, with Mrs. Gaskell edging her opposition by very few votes. They couldn't be more different. We've decided to schedule Blue H. in Februray - hoping you will all stay with us though both of these winners!
Here's a phrase caught my attention when reading the thumbnail sketch - "this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society." We've seen female writers during this period...I wonder if they played it safe to be accepted - or if an "ironic critique" was unusual - considered shocking in this mid-Victorian society?
Can't wait to get started. Be sure to come back on January 2 and we'll get into this book together. I'm reading mine on the ipad - It's available free on the net.
Happy new 2014, EVERYONE!
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I've ordered the book, resisting the condensed version (Wives and Daughters in half the time!). I read Cranford a few years ago when PBS put on a version. We talked about that, and some of us read the book too. It was quite enjoyable.
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Looking forward to this one - did not know she was a personal friend of the Bronte's and born only 2 years before Dickens who did publish her stories in his magazine.
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This discussion should be fun. I enjoyed the Masterpiece program adapted from the book in 2001, I think. I don't recall if I've read the book but am looking forward to reading it and talking about it with all of you.
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Will read along!
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I downloaded it (free on Kindle) and plan to read along with you.
Sally
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This should be a good discussion. Elizabeth Gaskell probably isn't a household word, but many of us have had some exposure to her through the videos of this title and Cranford. I think I remember CRanford on TV more than Wives and Daughters. I've never read anything by her, but am looking forward to it.
Netflix has the DVDs of Cranford and North and South, as well as this book. One of the background discs has the interesting title of "Who the Dickens is Mrs Gaskell?" -- no doubt a reference to her association with Dickens.
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My kindle charged 95 cents. How come you all got it free? ;D
Started to read it last night, and am enjoying the slow pace and gentle plot. I loved Cranford on TV, but missed W and D.
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JoanK there are several versons on the Kindle - one is free and the others are 99 and 1.99 and a couple at 2.99 and then a jump and a couple at 6 something - the Oxford press one is 6 something and the one that says it is annotated is 2.99 A coiuple of them make a big deal of saying it is the complete version hmmm are some of the others not complete.
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JoanK, I have Amazon Prime, do you? I only saw the free one; but maybe I didn't look further. I certainly hope it is the complete version!
Sally
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That's funny. Never mind: for 99 cents, I can be a big time spender. I doubt this one is abridged. It seems plenty long.
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Gaskell Rekindled. Yes, I seem to remember Cranford, read and discussed here several years ago. Very enjoyable. I always thought of it as Gaskell's Utopia. Her attempt at showing how well the ladies of Cranford could get along without men. And that was very well indeed. Now with the more mature Wives and Daughters, we're hearing about the ironies of Victorian society (in the heading). I have both a wife and a daughter, both very successful in their professions who both point out for me the ironies of modern society, so I'm looking forward to finding the continuity.
Besides, I'm finding it tiresome to be always reading about fathers and sons, except for Alexander Waugh's recent, spirited account of himelf, his father Auberon, his grandfather Evelyn, his great, and his great/great Dr Alexander, known as 'The Brute'. Talk about ironies!!
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How about The Son by Philipp Meyer - got it for my one grand who lives in Lubbock - sounds like just the kind of thrilling generational story that would keep him turning pages - haven;t read it but it sounds like a rough and ready group of characters that are the very opposite of the typical nineteenth century niceties from Gadskell
From the bits I have read about this story it appears to be very different than Cranford - Hope to do some reading on the plane - still too much left to do - gotta go.
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Looking forward to joining this discussion. It will be a nice, hopefully slower time for me. I have never heard or read anything by Elizabeth Gaskell, but I have a new found interest in the 18th/19th century in England so I am excited. I love the dynamics of wives and daughters, so I am sure I am going to enjoy this book. If it's free I may try getting it on my color nook. If not I am sure I can download it from my library.
Ciao for now~
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What a great group already gathering, PatH, Kidsal, salan, pedln, JoanK, Jonathan and Bellamarie. We can learn a bit about the era as well as enjoy talking about the book.
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This book did not look very interesting to me, BUT, now that I have read about 8 chapters, I'm finding it very interesting and hard to put down. So I am looking forward to the discussion.
Marj
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One more day and I should be free to get into the book, too, Marjifay. I've been interested in this book since I read that Elizabeth Gaskell offers us an "ironique critique of mid-Victorian society." The idea of a female author criticizing the society ( the men?) of her time, fascinates me.
If I understand correctly, the story is set in a remote village...just before the coming of the railroad...maybe when it first opened. Does anyone remember when that was? Remember Cranford? A fictional village, looking forward to the railroad, devastated to learn that it was going to bypass them.
Am looking forward to another Elizabeth Gaskell...
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Marj, it's good to know that the book is hard to put down. We should be in for a treat to start the new year.
JoanP, there is a short article on the history of the railroad in Great Britain at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_Great_Britain
The PBS site about their adaptation of Wives and Daughters says this about the timeframe of the book:
"Pre-Victorian English country society in the 1820s, the time period in which Wives and Daughters is set, was multi-layered and organized by intricate and distinct social groupings.
This basic hierarchical system consisted of the upper-, the middle- and the working-classes -- and each of these categories had its own internal hierarchical relationships as well. The upper classes ruled through a system of inherited aristocracy with complex rules, including rules of address. Everyone knew their place and fulfilled through their speech, dress, manner and aspirations."
There is more at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/wives/society.html
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Marcie, those two sites help. Knowing the "Pre-Victorian English country society in the 1820s, is the time period in which Wives and Daughters is set," explains why I was puzzled...as Eliz. Gaskell wrote the novel in 1864. She was writing of an earlier age, before the coming of the railroad, which did so much to bring the country villages in touch with the change going on in London - in the rest of the country.
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X = marking my spot. I don't (yet) have the book and for the past week, Life (has been) What Happens When You're Making Other Plans. I'll read along and hope to catch up eventually.
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Great, Callie. I'm glad you'll be joining us. While you wait for the book you might want to read a few chapters online. The whole book is available at http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm
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Thanks, Marcie. I'll check into that.
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The first five chapters go fairly fast. Good to see you here, Callie.
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It's good to see you here, Pat. I am enjoying the writing and looking forward to finding out what happens.
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I read it before the Christmas rush, but so much has happened since then, I don't remember much. Will reread it tonight in bed. I'll either finish it or get a good nights sleep. :D
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The first day of the first discussion in the New Year! I am excited about this. Just had to look up the town of Hollingford, - real or fictional? I learned it is small fictional town in the middle of England, closely based on Knutsford, Cheshire, Gaskell's hometown. For those of you who read Gaskell's Cranford - you might remember that the town of Cranford was also based on Knutsford. I'm going to guess that Wives and Daughters is based on Gaskell's own life and experience?
A Christmas present - a thick paperback copy of the book...with tiny print. When I first looked at it, I thought surely there would be footnotes, but was mistaken. Does anyone have a footnoted copy - or will we be supplying our own footnotes? :D
Marcie has left us some interesting points to considerin the heading...don't miss them as you read each section. My first impression? That the book is going to be as much about Dr. Gibson as the relationship between wives and daughters. I couldn't help but notice how many women died at a young age...beginning with young Molly's own mother. I gather she will be the main character of the story - once she grows up.
Right now, I'm really liking the no-nonsense doctor, the loving father. Mrs. Gaskell seems to be using him as a contrast to other men in the story.
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The book certainly gets off to a promising start. This is the third book we have read recently about roughly the same time and society (it takes place ten to fifteen years later that Persuasion), so by now we should be experts on English village life. But it seems a little different in each case.
I'm struck by the contrast in the techniques of Jane Austen and Mrs. Gaskell. Both have a wickedly clear-sighted eye for the foibles of their characters, but Austen uses a more indirect way of showing us, primarily through conversations, while Gaskell gives us more lengthy, straightforward descriptions of people.
JoanP--my book has 10 or so short footnotes per chapter, mostly explaining unfamiliar words or terms.
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The book does get off to a promising start -- and it continues. I've read quite a bit ahead, so will watch my p's and q's here, keeping the iPad for continued reading and the Kindle and PC for review and searching. (My memory needs some help, too, JoanK.
The names of the village are interesting, JoanP. My first thought on seeing Knutsford was that it was a Scandinavian name, but now see that I inadvertently put a "j" in for Knutsfjord.
I'm glad you're pointing out the differences between Austen and Gaskill, PatH. It's a help for those of us who haven't read a lot of either.
I love the excitement that Gaskill brings in, showing how excited Molly is over this day. How much she is looking forward to it. And I enjoyed the bonnet descriptions. Why do you suppose she must wear a white frock?
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Hi'ya all
I sit here wondering, what have I let myself in for with Wives and Daughters? Subtitled An Everyday Story.
But no ordinary day it seems. The first chapter heading declares The Dawn of a Gala Day. And there's a hint of excitement in each of the other 59 chapter headings! And look at this expanded theme in chapter 27: Father and Sons.
Talk of 'childhood rigmarole' and 'feudal feelings' in rural England. Sounds to me like Mrs Gaskell is finding her own fossils to match those in Lyme Regis.
What a party with Lady Cumnor! It ends with 'the happy consciousness of a well-spent day. but with some fatigue at the long-continued exertion of behaving their best, and talking on stilts for so many hours. Nor were Lady Cumnor and her daughter free from something of the same self-approbation, and something, too, of the same fatigue that always follows on conscious efforts to behave as will best please the society you are in.'
Talking on Stilts.!?!? That could be exhausting.
We must keep our eye on the Miss Brownings. 'They were tall handsome women, past their first youth, and inclined to be extremely complaisant to the widowed doctor.'
I'm not sure of the compacent attitude here. The doctor has been widowed for a dozen years and would hardly want to disturb the happy domestic life with his darling daughter.
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Read some background info from the Oxford publication but have not started the story - I need another day or two - all my things should arrive tomorrow and once I get my clothes back in the drawers and closets and I settle in a bit I can start - today is Thursday so by late Saturday or Sunday I should be able to get going.
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I love that phrase "talking on stilts for so many hours". Does it refer to the shoes they wore, or more symbolically, to the sense of unease and being about to fall on ones face that the villagers felt in this unfamiliar environment.
My copy doesn't have numbered chapters, only occasional headings. I read much too far: either I lost count or the headings don't correspond to the chapters. So thank you for saying "until she leaves for Haskell". I'm going to need those phrases.
Gaskell certainly makes social class and strata differences very evident. You don't find this in Austen, (except in Emma).
The doctor is interesting. He is kinda-sorta gentry, but not quite. If you were upper class, there were only a few occupations that you could work in without losing status: the church, the law, or the military. Doctors were late in being accepted into that list.
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I read the first five chapters. I must not be in the mood for this type of book, as I found it a little boring. I got it free on my Kindle and it says that it is 800 pages long! Is that correct? I will read a little further, but may not continue..
Sally
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Hey, is there anyone else from Southeast Missouri here? I'd sure like to meet you if there is. I was surprised to find the VHS of Wives and Daughters checked out from the public library. Not that no one else in my town likes Elizabeth Gaskill, just the timing of it.
Sally, your edition is correct on the number of pages. I have the same one on my Kindle. Stick with it, you may be surprised.
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will read gutenberg
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bluebird, I'm glad you'll be able to read the book online. I've read the first five chapters online while I'm hunting for the copy of the book I misplaced over the Christmas holidays. Sally, as Pedln says, I hope you stick with it. I think that the discussion here will motivate us all.
PatH, is "talking on stilts" footnoted in your book? Your guesses are good, JoanK. I'm also wondering if it might refer to the "lofty" or "exaggerated" nice things one tries to say in "company."
Pat, I'm glad you brought up the differences in style between Eliz. Gaskell and Jane Austen. I'm finding the detailed descriptions of the characters by Gaskell helpful in getting into the story.
JoanK, you're right. The doctor seems to be accepted into every level of society, including the highest. I wonder if it's partly due to his own educated manner, as well as his profession. There were probably some unmannered country doctors during that time.
Jonathan, I agree with you, "complaisant" or not, I don't think that the tall Miss Brownings have a chance with the doctor. ;) He's not looking for another wife and is very attached to his daughter. I also think he seems to have standards or preferences that would not include any of them as a love interest.
I remember the word "condescension" used by Mr. Collins in reference to Lady Catherine de Bourgh of Rosings Park in Jane Austen's PRIDE AND PREJUDICE. I noticed it early in Gaskell's first chapter in reference to the attitude of theupper class in the Tower to the lower classes. I looked it up and found:
"An older, less-used definition of the word has condescend as a verb rather than an adjective, and defines it as "to behave as if one is conscious of descending from a superior position, rank, or dignity." A good example would be the Queen of England talking to someone of a lower social rank without appearing to talk down to that person. In that case, the Queen would have condescended to the lower rank of the other person."
http://freetheprincess.blogspot.com/2010/10/random-historicial-trivia-meaning-of.html
What other terms did you wonder about or have to look up?
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Kinda-sorta gentry but not quite--that expresses it very nicely, JoanK. Furthermore, Gibson is a surgeon, lower class than a physician. But he has gone to the most prestigious medical university at the time--Edinburgh--whereas most surgeons got their training by apprenticeship, like the students Gibson takes into his house. And he is very presentable--tall, dark handsome and lean. As Gaskell says in one of her nifty little touches, "leanness goes a great way to gentility". As Marcie points out, Gibson is freely welcomed to dine with Lord and Lady Cumnor, whereas his predecessor, Mr. Hall, was not.
Actually, there is plenty of awareness of social class and strata in Austen, but as you point out, it's less in your face, being mostly understated, present in little social cues.
"Talking on stilts" doesn't have a footnote in my book, alas.
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Pat, that's a good point about the education of surgeons and physicians. I hadn't made the connection.
Interesting too, as you note, that his "leanness" made a difference (for the better) in how he was perceived.
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Even today there are weight differences by social class: upper class people being supposedly thinner (supposed to show better discrimination and self control). The opposite of medieval china, where being fat was a symbol of high status.
What funny things we humans do to each other!
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Stay with it, Sally. It gets very interesting as you get into the lives of these characters. Joan points to that, I believe, when she wonders about what these people do to each other. Their interactions make a fine story.
Being alert to word usages in past years keeps the reader alert to all kinds of nuances, as Marcie has pointed out with regard to the use of 'condescension.' The Lady is being gracious by showing awareness of someone in a lower class.
My dictionary reminds me that language can be stilted. It can be pompous, inflated, stiff, bombastic, etc. At the party a lot of nervous energy left many uncertain about what to say. Very tiring.
I find the school for girls interesting. Was it philanthropy that got them going, or was it a matter of training girls for a life of service to the higher classes?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
Our First Group Discussion of the New Year!
Do join us here on January 2, 2014!
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/wivesdaughters/wivescover.jpg) |
Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
The best-known of her remaining novels are Cranford (1853), North and South (1854), and Wives and Daughters (1865). She became popular for her writing, especially her ghost stories, aided by Charles Dickens, who published her work in his magazine Household Words. Her ghost stories are in the "Gothic" vein. |
You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Chapters I - V ~ January 2-5
Chapters VI - X ~ January 6-12
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Some Things to Think About
Chapters VI-X ~ January 6-12
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER VI. A Visit to the Hamleys
Does Molly appear to accept Mrs. Hamley's assessment of her two sons?
What is your first impression of these two boys? Would it have been the same if their birth order had been reversed?
Are you guided by your first impressions as Mrs. Hamley claims to be?
CHAPTER VII. Foreshadows of Love Perils
Scarlet Fever! Does it appear that Molly will remain at the Hamleys for some time, until the Hamley boys return? Why does this concern the parents?
Osborne's grandfather was "plucked" at Oxford?
CHAPTER VIII. Drifting into Danger
What is the " danger" the author implies in the title of this chapter?
Molly's indignation at Roger's unfeeling remarks about Osborne's poor showing at Cambridge?
Mr. Hamley's anger at his son's performance on his tests?
Or perhaps, Molly's father..."drifting into matrimony?" Do you consider Clare a "danger"? Is this a bit of humor? How is the author portraying Clare and her motives?
CHAPTER IX. The Widow and the Widower
Do you feel any sympathy for Clare, a single working mother, who had to work to support herself and her daughter? Did you wonder why Cynthia is in France?
What do you learn of her background before Clare's marriage to the churchman? Do you think that was a happy marriage?
Who planted the idea of a second marriage between the widow and the widower?
CHAPTER X. A Crisis
Can you think of a reason for the emphasis on the name, Hyacinth. Why is it important for Clare to be called Hyacinth now? Do you remember why she has been called Clare?
Considering the proposal and acceptance, do you see this a love match on either side? Was this unusual for this time?
Why does Molly take the news so hard? What do you think of Roger Hamley now?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com ), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
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Jonathan, I think that the humor of this book suits you. I like your droll take on the event at the Towers. You say, "At the party a lot of nervous energy left many uncertain about what to say. Very tiring." That made me laugh.
You ask "I find the school for girls interesting. Was it philanthropy that got them going, or was it a matter of training girls for a life of service to the higher classes?"
I think it's likely both, do you? Also, I'm thinking that some "showing off" of their good works is at play. They seem to have frequent visitors to the school.
In the book we find out: "She [Lady Cumnor] and the ladies, her daughters, had set up a school; not a school after the manner of schools now-a-days, where far better intellectual teaching is given to the boys and girls of labourers and work-people than often falls to the lot of their betters in worldly estate; but a school of the kind we should call "industrial," where girls are taught to sew beautifully, to be capital housemaids, and pretty fair cooks, and, above all, to dress neatly in a kind of charity uniform devised by the ladies of Cumnor Towers;—white caps, white tippets, check aprons, blue gowns, and ready curtseys, and "please, ma'ams," being de rigueur."
As I reread sections in response to everyone's comments and questions, I find myself noticing more of the humor in Gaskell's descriptions. I'd be interested in hearing what you all are finding humorous.
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Joan, I admit that I usually just take at face value the assertion that this or that characteristic is valued by a particular society and time. I now am wondering if Mrs. Gaskell is toying with the notion a bit. When I read your summation it strikes me that Gaskell may be pointing out the silliness of placing value on these specific characteristics: "Not only was he thin...but with his coloring, his black hair, he looked French. This was considered a plus among this crowd...I'm not exactly sure why. Young Molly inherited these same characteristics from her father, so she has this going for her."
When she goes to the event at the Towers, Molly wears a "black mode cloak" that had been her mother's. "it was trimmed round with rich lace, and looked quaint and old-fashioned on the child." I don't know what the expression means: black mode cloak. Anyone help?
What do you think of Clare? She forgets to wake up Molly and then makes it appear that it was Molly's fault. Is her character supposed to appear "scatterbrained"?
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Clare...it's becoming obvious that she will play a role in the story. But there's something that causes me to question her character. I wouldn't call her " scatterbrained," Marcie. She seems to be more pre- occupied with her own comforts, for someone who is supposed to be so good with children. Can't deny she took some care of Molly - even offering the girl to share her bed for the night. But then she became noticeably irritated with Molly...not happy she had to care for a sick child after having had to "traipse about the gardens,"...and miss her lunch. Maybe she's just hungry and tired and we should excuse her sense of entitlement. How did Molly take her, that's the important question, I guess. I
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Marcie, I've had no luck finding Black Mode Coat. The closest I came was an article in the 1851 Janesville GAzette, but when I tried to access, the message was that I'd already looked at one newspaper and did I want to register and pay $1.95 for a three-day trial. No, thank you.
The way it is used in the description makes one wonder if mode was a type of fabric.
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Yesterday afternoon, I picked up the Penguin Classics version of "Wives and Daughters" at the library.
It's like a text book! Very small print but lots of notes, comments, suggestions for further reading - and a section on "Textual Variants" that explains some terms in modern English.
This is going to be like taking a college Lit course...and those were never my favorites. However, I'll try to keep up and will enjoy reading your comments.
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That's the edition I have, Callie. Don't read the introduction yet. It's full of plot spoilers.
The book starts slowly, as Mrs. Gaskell sets her scene and introduces her characters and places. But after a bit it picks up, and you get hooked. I read most of it yesterday, not really meaning to, but picking it up whenever I had a chance.
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Pat, yes, I saw the "spoiler alert" that began the introduction, so I skipped it. :D
I just got the book yesterday afternoon - on a break from putting away Christmas decorations - so didn't have time to do much more than a "get acquainted" read.
Today, our wind chill - and remembering bronchitis attacks from breathing in cold air - are keeping me inside. So I hope to catch up a bit before the new season of "Downton Abbey" and the new episodes of "Revenge" and "The Good Wife" come on tonight.
I do like reading the comments here before I've read the pages mentioned. That helps me pay attention to details I'd probably read right over.
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Callie, I'm glad that you and Pat have an annotated version of the book. You don't have to read the notes but some might come in handy if some of us have questions about a particular passage.
Thanks, Pedln, for trying to find "black mode coat." Not worth a subscription fee!!
JoanP, you're right. "How does Molly feel about Clare" is the important question. What do we all think? Even though Molly is not developed socially (she hasn't had much interaction with people beyond her home) and she is inclined to feel guilty for her accidental overstay at the Towers, she does sense that Clare isn't taking responsibility for her part in the situation. I don't think she has completely positive feelings towards Clare, even though Clare did show her some kindness.
From Chapter 2: Claire says: "Poor darling! I saw you come into the dining-room, looking so shy; and I wanted you to come near me, but I could not make a sign to you, because Lord Cuxhaven was speaking to me at the time, telling me about his travels. Ah, here is a nice book—Lodge's Portraits; now I'll sit by you and tell you who they all are, and all about them. Don't trouble yourself any more, dear Lady Cuxhaven; I'll take charge of her; pray leave her to me!"
Molly grew hotter and hotter as these last words met her ear. If they would only leave her alone, and not labour at being kind to her; would "not trouble themselves" about her! These words of Mrs. Kirkpatrick's seemed to quench the gratitude she was feeling to Lady Cuxhaven for looking for something to amuse her. But, of course, it was a trouble, and she ought never to have been there."
Earlier, Clare doesn't speak up to say that she had eaten Molly's lunch, which Molly felt too poorly to eat:
"Lady Cuxhaven must have seen their approach, for she met them in this hall as soon as they came in.
"How is she now?" she asked; then glancing at the plates and glasses, she added, "Come, I think there can't be much amiss! You're a good old Clare, but you should have let one of the men fetch that tray in; life in such weather as this is trouble enough of itself."
Molly could not help wishing that her pretty companion would have told Lady Cuxhaven that she herself had helped to finish up the ample luncheon; but no such idea seemed to come into her mind. She only said,—"Poor dear! she is not quite the thing yet; has got a headache, she says. I am going to put her down on my bed, to see if she can get a little sleep."
Molly saw Lady Cuxhaven say something in a half-laughing manner to "Clare," as she passed her; and the child could not keep from tormenting herself by fancying that the words spoken sounded wonderfully like "Over-eaten herself, I suspect." "
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Good question, Jonathan. I believe it is another case of "doing well by doing good" i.e. philanthropy which also serves the interests of the donor.
The scene of the poor shy little girl stuck in that drawing room where she doesn't belong and doesn't want to be is painful in it's realism. Didn't you find yourself squirming?
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'But after a bit it picks up, and you get hooked. I read most of it yesterday...'
Most of the book, Pat? That's extraordinary, but I can well believe it. The rigmarole has caught my imagination and Mrs Gaskell's realism and sense of humor makes it a delightful read.
My book has a few explanatory notes, including one for 'black mode cloak': 'a thin, glossy silk, used for hoods, scarfs, etc'. The impotance of it lies in the rest of your question, Marcie, in pointing out that it had belonged to her mother. Molly has grown up without a mother. Is that about to be changed? Is Mrs Kirkpatrick going to come into Molly's life in that role. It seems strange that the author makes a big thing out of Clare (Mrs K) eating Molly's lunch. Half a dozen references to it in the chapter. With each reference suggesting something about Clare's character. Or Molly's feelings. This is going to get interesting.
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The scene of the poor shy little girl stuck in that drawing room where she doesn't belong and doesn't want to be is painful in it's realism. Didn't you find yourself squirming?
The whole chapter is rather painful. The young girl is so excited about this fantastic treat she is going to have, and it turns into a day of discomfort, humiliation and terror. I started hoping this wasn't going to be a foreshadowing of her life to come.
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It was painful for Molly. To feel for the first time that she is the center of attention...being judged on her appearance - and coming up short. Mrs. Gaskell seems to be telling us that Molly is in fact, a very pretty girl, but oblivious to the fact. She's never thought about it...
Wasn't it a bit strange that Dr. Gibson keeps the two young medical apprentices under his roof, especially since he is away from home so often? Surely he must be aware of his daughter's increasing beauty.
The fact that the 19 year old Mr. Coxe developed "calf love" (puppy love?) on the girl was quite normal and should not have surprised her father. Is this one of the doctor's traits - a lack of awareness, until something happens to jar him from his complacency?
What did you think of his reaction - and his "insulting prescription? (Maybe some of you Latin students - or those of you with foot-noted copies - can translate the prescription so we can understand why young Mr. Coxe felt an insult.)
I still don't understand why the housemaid who delivered his note was dismissed - and not the young man, do you? How long will Molly have to stay with the Hemleys? She'll be coming home sooner or later and Mr. Coxe will still be residing in the house, won't he?
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Today we're scheduled to move on to Chapters VI-X...some of you have moved on to this section already, others are still considering the opening chapters, following a busy week. Let's not move too quickly through the next chapters for another day.
It did strike me funny that the doctor sent hIs young daughter to another family with two teen-age boys, though they are away at school during Molly's visit to the Hamleys. Mrs. Hamley tells Molly all about her sons, though I don't think she's trying to get Molly interested in them.
CHAPTER VI. A Visit to the Hamleys
Does Molly appear to accept Mrs. Hamley's assessment of her two sons?
What is your first impression of these two boys? Would it have been the same if their birth order had been reversed?
Are you guided by your first impressions as Mrs. Hamley claims to be?
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My notes do translate the prescription:
R = Recipe (i. e., take)
Of Modesty 1 ounce
Of Domestic Fidelity 1 ounce
Of Deference 3 grains
Mix. Take this dose three times a day in pure water.
R. GIBSON, Surgeon
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Wasn't it a bit strange that Dr. Gibson keeps the two young medical apprentices under his roof, especially since he is away from home so often? Surely he must be aware of his daughter's increasing beauty.
This has been a difficult situation for the doctor for some time. Even before Molly was old enough to be in danger of romance, he realized the awkwardness of it, at which point he brought in Miss Eyre as a governess/companion. Miss Eyre is still in the house as a companion, to preserve respectability as well as to give Molly company.
Gibson would be reluctant to dismiss his student for several reasons. The apprenticeship is a contractual arrangement, with legal obligations on both sides. Gibson would have to break his contract, though it seems he could do this by refunding the fees. Also, Coxe's father is a personal friend, and is currently stationed in the Punjab (he's an army major) so Coxe doesn't have a home in England to go to. So he settles for making the boy promise not to express his love in any way.
Gibson is certainly clueless about some things. Imagine giving a girl just a few hours notice to prepare for a two week visit to another house, and not seeing that there might be some practical problems. ::)
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Jonathan, thank you very much for finding the meaning of "black mode coat." As you say, it's more important that it belonged to her mother. Molly seems to receive all emotional support from her father who dotes on her and she on him. Their housekeeper doesn't seem the warm, motherly type: We encounter her in the first paragraph of the book when Molly is "wide awake and longing to get up, but not daring to do so for fear of the unseen power in the next room—a certain Betty, whose slumbers must not be disturbed until six o'clock struck, when she wakened of herself "as sure as clockwork," and left the household very little peace afterwards."
Many of us are remarking on the realistic way that Gaskell portrays scenes and characters. We feel Molly's distress and humilation during her day at the Towers and understand Coxe's feelings of insult at the way Molly's father tries to disuade him from declaring his feelings for Molly.
JoanP and PatH, you bring up good points about Molly's father and how he handles this situation. I'm seeing him as someone who still sees Molly as his "litte girl." He doesn't seem to concern himself in the details of her life. He would have left that to her mother, had she lived. I think that the intercepted letter from Coxe is sort of a wake up call for him and he's taking action without being able to think it through. Pat, thanks for the translation of the prescription.
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I just purchased the book for my nookcolor. I was hoping to get the book from the library immediately after Christmas, but our weather has made it impossible to get out for the past few days. We are at -45 degrees wind chill factor with over a foot of snow. I completely forgot I had my nook until tonight. ::) I paid 3.99 which to me is not so bad for a 880+ page book.
I am on chapter 2 and will try to catch up with you all tomorrow. Can someone tell me the age of Molly in the first couple of chapters?
This makes me think she is not as young as I was imagining her to be.
Marcie, " We feel Molly's distress and humilation during her day at the Towers and understand Coxe's feelings of insult at the way Molly's father tries to disuade him from declaring his feelings for Molly."
Okay very tired, going to turn in for the night.
Ciao for now~
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In chapters 1 and 2, Molly is 12. In 3 and 4, which describe the village, fill in her childhood, and introduce a lot of characters, she is varying ages. In 5, where Mr. Coxe tries to tell her of his love, she is 17. She seems immature for her age, but maybe that's normal for a girl growing up in a small English village almost 200 years ago.
The first chapters seem scrappy and confusing, and it's hard to keep all the characters straight, but then the story takes off, and it gets much more interesting.
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One reason for the confusion about Molly's age is her father's determination to keep her young. In the opening chapter when we are told of the "rigmarole" of childhood, you'd have to conclude that Molly is a lot younger than 12. How many times does the author use the word "little" when describing her...the "little girl" got up the morning of the gala from her "little dimity bed" - crosses the floor in her "bare little feet"...to admire the "little blue bow" on her bonnet - "the first bit of finery she ever had."
It is difficult to believe this description of a 12 year old girl. When the doctor hired Miss Eyre to educate his daughter - his instructions were "NOT to teach her too much." He tells her not to teach Molly too much...he "wants to keep her a child."
He's "not sure that reading or writing is necessary, but feels he must yield to the prejudices of society." What is going on with him? It's a wonder Molly is as well-adjusted as she seems to be.
Hope this helps, Bellamarie - knowing that you aren't the only one confused about Molly's age. You'll catch up in no time, especially with all the good information in the posts here.
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Thanks for the translation of the prescription, PatH. I confess I don't find the prescription itself as "insulting" as Mr. Coxe did. If anything, I thought it was rather playful - a gentle reminder that the boy was a guest in the house and owed the doctor his loyalty and restraint in this matter. I suppose the fact that the doctor had read his message to Molly was enough for him to feel he'd been insulted. He regards Molly as a young woman of nearly 17, while her father thinks of her as "a mere child." Again he refers to her as "little Molly."
I was really interest in the doctor's comment when the young Mr. Coxe asked him if he forgets he was young once..."Poor Jeanie" he says...more than once. Who was this Jeanie? Not Molly's mother, right?
Molly is to go to the Hamley's for only two weeks, do I have that right? Mr. Coxe has three more years of study at the doctor's house... I can't help but think that Mrs. Hamley is good for Molly. As long as her sons are away from home. Molly seems to regard those two boys as fairy-tale princes...at least Osborne. What did you think of their mother's description of her two sons. I felt badly for young Roger. I guess I feel badly for all the second-born sons at this time.
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Good question about "Jeanie." As I tend to forget a lot of details, my first thought was that this was his late wife. But not so, as Molly's mother's name was Mary, and it was also Molly's real given name. But Dr. Gibson prefers to call her MOlly, no doubt to keep her young. So was "Jeanie" a lost love?.
"Plucked at Oxford" (A quick Google search, although not providing a definition, brings up several others who suffered this demise.) It seems it was the Squire's father who suffered that discrace, and he in turn sent the Squire to a less pretentious, more provincial school. And that seems to have affected his lifestyle and his marriage. In today's terms we would probably say he has an inferiority complex about his lack of education. But not about his background and the arrival of the first Hamleys.
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My book's footnotes can help. Plucked is university slang for failing an exam. Since these were mostly big important exams, this was serious. You might be kicked out.
Another footnote: Fellowships, which provided college rooms and dining, were awarded to those gaining a high place in the Mathematical Tripos; the honours list was divided into Wranglers, Senior Optimes, and Junior Optimes, with Wranglers being the highest division. Two Chancellor's medals were awarded for classics and one for English poetry.
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Thanks for all of the good information here. I agree that Molly has been kept socially young/immature by her father. He sees her as his little girl and she's not going to grow up in his eyes.... not yet, anyway. Jeanie seems like a lost first love. Maybe we'll find out about her later.
I think that Gaskell might be showing us an injustice in the education system for women. It seems, from Gaskell's as well as Jane Austen's works, that women were not to be taught the "difficult" subjects as men were.
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JoanP, Gibson's ideas of education for his daughter seem designed to keep her a child. He's holding on tight to her, not wanting to give up her sympathetic, loving companionship, fearing to think of her as grown up. But there's more to his notions; in part they reflect the ideas of the time. When he debates whether reading is necessary, he says "it's rather a diluting of mother-wit, to my fancy". Women were regarded as different creatures than men, inferior in intelligence, and their sphere was supposed to be feelings, emotions. Much education would be unnecessary.
Mrs. Gaskell was a wife and mother as well as a successful writer, and I'm going to watch carefully to try to see what her own attitude was.
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Marcie, we were posting at the same time.
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Cannot believe I am so behind but I will catch up - between coming home and clients from years ago contacting me and then the deep freeze that we are climbing out of today - just trying to stay warm is a trick and a half.
I must say that I was balled over with the starting chapter - she really nailed it letting us know that this is all about station in life and that each station depended on the other so that we start with " In the country there was a shire, and in that shire there was a town, and in that town there was a house, and in that house there was a room, and in that room there was a bed, and in that bed there lay a little girl; wide awake and longing to get up"..."as sure as clockwork"
Everyone in their place ticking away like clockwork however, lo there is a young girl who wants to break free from the imposed authority, the regulator clockworks society. And even more, she is at the bottom of the heap from country to bed. Looks like Gaskell lays it out for us in her first paragraph.
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I'm finding this book hilarious. But I'm also touched by the heart-breaking situations in which in which many characters find themselves. The poor motherless girl. The bewildered, widowed father. The underachiever at Oxford. What a disappointment for his parents. On my street we all watched for many years as our neighbor struggled with his growing daughter after she lost her mother when she was ten. He never remarried and she had a difficult time. Another acquaintance made a life for himself and his daughter after his wife died when the child was about six. A dozen years later it created serious problems when he remarried. But we could all tell of such situations. Many heartbraking. Many with wonderful results.
Still, I find it hilarious to read Clare's take on her prospects. On page 100.
'I wonder if I am to go on all my life toiling and moiling for money? It's not natural. Marriage is the natural thing; then the husband has all that kind of dirty work to do, and his wife sits in the drawing-room like a lady. I did, when poor Kirkpatrick was alive. Heigho! it's a sad thing to be a widow.'
Perhaps the doctor overreacted after the intercepted love letter. Dismissing the messenger (poor girl), getting Molly out of the house, repremanding Coxe. And of course looking for help with his daughter.
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Pat, GMTA :-) Your response was more expanded and included helpful details.
Barbara, that's an excellent interpretation of the opening paragraph. Thanks!
Jonathan, I appreciate your pointing out that humorous passage. I am laughing re-reading it in your post. I think that Gaskell can be very witty. I also agree that she can portray a range of emotions through the situations in which she places the characters. She's very skillful in providing details that make us understand their feelings.
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BarbStA,
"Everyone in their place ticking away like clockwork however, lo there is a young girl who wants to break free from the imposed authority, the regulator clockworks society. And even more, she is at the bottom of the heap from country to bed. Looks like Gaskell lays it out for us in her first paragraph."
I've read up to chapter 5, and I am not so sure Molly does want to break free. When she had the opportunity to share some time at the Towers she seemed petrified. When her father came for her she ran to him as if her life depended on him. As they were riding back to the home she expressed she would want to be tied to him as a donkey, as he has to leave and go away and she can't bear time away from him. Does this seem natural?
I do love Mr. Gibson's dry humor, especially twisting the vicar in knots, and the young medical student, who takes his every word so seriously.
I am finally up to chapter 5, so now to just get caught up to this weeks reading. I really am liking the the book, so far.
JoanP. Thank you so much for the clarification of Molly's age. I didn't imagine her to be 12 yrs old in the first chapters. Gaskell is wasting no time in moving along with her aging. I am a bit stifled at how many characters are introduced in the first 4 chapters, but I assume it will all fall into place soon.
We are still experiencing polar vortex temperatures -35 degrees wind chill factor, and covered in a foot of snow here in Toledo, Ohio. Our city has been on a Level 3 snow emergency since Sunday afternoon, meaning NO ONE but emergency and hospital employees allowed on our streets. So being cooped up, with NO daycare kids has actually been fun for me. i can actually see myself retiring and enjoying it. Okay, on to the next chapters.
Ciao for now~
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Well, we are getting a clearer picture of Clare in these chapters, aren't we, Jonathan? Mrs. Gaskell painted her with such sympathetic strokes at the start...but left a little room to question her real feelings and . I too, appreciate Gaskell's "dry humor," Bellamarie - a good way to describe it.
"Marriage is the natural thing; then the husband has all that kind of dirty work to do, and his wife sits in the drawing-room like a lady. I did, when poor Kirkpatrick was alive."
This makes you wonder what sort of a mother she was to her daughter, Cynthia, doesn't it? Do you think Cynthia will take after her mother? Interesting that Cynthia is away at school, perfecting her French, don't you think?
Barbara! There you are! An interesting observation on class in the opening chapter - though I have to agree with Bella about Molly desiring to break free of the restraints put on her. In her own sweet way, she seems able to convince her father to expand her educational choices, but his desire to keep her a child seems to have worked to a point. She seems quite naive for a 17 year old, with very little interest in the opposite sex, doesn't she?
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For the first time in her life, Molly is away from home - with the educated, literate Mrs. Hamley. I thought this would be a wonderful experience and exposure to the fine arts for Molly. Miss Eyre seemed rather limited - maybe just because of Dr. Gibson's restrictions.
But Mrs. Hamley seems to need company - to discuss her absent boys - especially her number #1 son. This must be the first time Molly is exposed to the rights of the first-borne.
What is your first impression of these two boys? Would it have been the same if their birth order had been reversed and Roger was the elder?
PatH, Pedln - thank you for the definition of "plucked at Oxford" - Osborne's grandfather was "plucked" - the same might be said of Osborne? Is this why his father is angry? Is he angry with Osborne? Or the fact that he sent him to school? Not too clear about this. He is drinking the last of Osborne's favorite burgundy...
Need some help from Latin students, or from your footnotes on the meaning of "Voe Victus." -
Her use of Latin makes me question Mrs. Gaskell's education - seems unlike her description of Molly's, doesn't it? Found this:
"With no more education than any other nice girl born in 1810; with marriage at twenty-one, and seven pregnancies thereafter; with all the domestic and social duties of the wife of a Unitarian minister, and the care and upbringing of her children; not to mention a taste for travel - prison visiting and humanitarian work among the poor - a social life as exuberant as that of Dickens and a circle of friends as large - with all this, still, at the age of thirty-six she became an enormously successful and respected writer in a hugely competitive and brilliant field." From a biography of Eliz. Gaskell (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Jgaskell.htm)
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The initial descriptions of Osborne and Roger are interesting. Osborne is the sensitive poet, interested in the arts. Roger is portrayed as interested in the outdoors, and not a scholar, but he reads the more difficult, to my mind, natural history and scientific books.
Their father tells Molly: ""So you don't know my boys, even by sight. I should have thought you would have done, for they're fond enough of riding into Hollingford; and I know Roger has often enough been to borrow books from your father. Roger is a scientific sort of a fellow. Osborne is clever, like his mother. I shouldn't wonder if he published a book some day."
Practical, scientific knowledge about nature and how the world works seems not to have been valued in the family as "education." Was the emphasis at school at that time on the arts? Reading and writing in Latin? Reading literature?
What an interesting excerpt, JoanP, from the biography of Gaskell. She seems extraordinary for her time.
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Practical, scientific knowledge about nature and how the world works seems not to have been valued in the family as "education." Was the emphasis at school at that time on the arts? Reading and writing in Latin? Reading literature?
Yes, science had not yet come into its own at most universities. Hamly remarks "It's a pity they don't take honours in Natural History at Cambridge. Roger would be safe enough if they did." And a footnote says that the Natural Sciences Tripos (final honors examination for a BA degree at Cambridge) was established in 1848, later than this story takes place.
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I loved how Mr. Gibson handled the calf-love situation. Coxe should have gone to Gibson and let his feelings be known. Using Bethia and being secretive was wrong and could have put Molly, a young, naive, innocent girl in jeopardy of not only not knowing how to deal with such a letter expressing his undying love for her, but as Gibson mentions, it puts Molly's reputation at risk, considering how Coxe handled the entire letter, and letting others know of his affections for Molly. I did not see Gibson's actions over protective of Molly, if anything I think it was the proper way to handle it.
Gibson’s response to Coxe’s love letter:
Master Coxe
R. Verecundiae 3j.
Fidelitatis Domesticae 3j.
Reticentiae gr. Iij.
M. Capiat hanc dosim ter die in aqua pura
“He’ll not like Master Coxe outside; no need to put him to unnecessary shame.” So the direction on the envelope was__
PatH. Thank you for the translation....yet more of Gaskell's humor.
So, now Molly is to get a proper education, from Mrs. Hamley. (Is this suppose to be like finishing school for young ladies, coming into their womanhood?) I can not imagine how boring it would be living in their home, two elderly people who seem to be fixated on their two sons. Not to mention poor Molly in a tizzy, with worry over her father possibly marrying again, after Mr. Hamley drops the idea. I sense Mrs. Hamley is already got in her mind to match make Molly with one of her sons, even though Mr. Hamley has made it clear, neither could marry below their income. This ought to be interesting!
Ciao for now~
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Thanks very much, Pat, for that information about science education and the Natural Sciences Tripos. At this point in the story, neither of the boys seem to have been educated for a vocation -- the typical military, legal or religious.
Bellamarie, yes the thinking of both fathers seems aligned regarding not making a match with Molly to either of the sons (or any man, according to the father!)
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Marcie - that was an interesting point - that Molly never ran into Roger when he came to her home to see the Doctor. We're to understand she'd never noticed him?
I didn't think that Molly was staying with Mrs. Hamley for an education, but rather for a week or so to get her out of the house while Miss Eyre , her governess, was away. The doctor felt she needed protection from the amourous Mr. Coxe. It didn't occur to me that Mrs. Hamley was considering a match...certainly not with her beloved Osborne, but a match with Roger? Is that what you're seeing, Bella Whether or not she was, it is Roger who returns home for the winter break, Roger the one Molly is getting to know. You're right, it will be interesting to see what develops here as Molly's visit is extended.
PatH...I wonder whether Roger will rise in his mother's estimation if her Osborne is "plucked" from Cambridge. (What WILL become of Osborne if that does happen?) From what you've quoted, his father already recognizes Rober's intelligence, though in a field not yet valued a this time.
The title of the next chapter "Drifting into Danger"got my attention. Who is in danger? Molly" Dr. Gibson? Mrs. Glaskell has a knack of setting the stage, a chapter or two before she reveals the plot.
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At this point in the story, neither of the boys seem to have been educated for a vocation -- the typical military, legal or religious.
Osborne has his work cut out for him. He will succeed his father, and spend his time running the estate, taking care of the farm and the tenants, doing all the things his father does now. We haven't met him yet, but so far he doesn't sound very suited to it. I wonder what sort of job he can make of it.
Roger, on the other hand, will have to find some way to increase his income, since he won't get very much, and so far we don't see what he could do.
I agree with JoanP--Gibson sent Molly to the Hamley's to get her out of danger while he tries to find a permanent solution to his problem. It's a purely social visit.
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I think the "Danger" in "Drifting into danger" is definitely that of marrying Clare. Her situation is pitiful: that of any "gentlewoman" unfortunate enough not to have a husband was pitiful. Her only options were to work as a governess, or live with wealthy relatives as a poor relation. Either way, she was in a limbo halfway between the status of a servant, and that of a family member.
But Gaskell makes it hard to feel sorry for Claire. She is like people we all have met: all loving and considerate on the outside, but completely selfish on the inside. Imagine seeing marriage in terms of her husband doing everything while she sits on the sofa!
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Reading your post, Joan, I thought of the daughter in France, who grew up with a mother like Clare, who admits sitting around, while her husband worked. Have we been told why he died at such a young age? I guess it isn't fair to blame her, but Clare is lethal! Don't you feel sorry for the unsuspecting Dr. Gibson, who believes she'll be a loving mother to his daughter. She's 17 now. He came so close to raising her himself, just the two of them.
What do you think of the daughter, studying in France? I can't wait for her appearance - expecting anything from Mrs. Gaskell's imagination...
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/wivesdaughters/wivescover.jpg) |
Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
The best-known of her remaining novels are Cranford (1853), North and South (1854), and Wives and Daughters (1865). She became popular for her writing, especially her ghost stories, aided by Charles Dickens, who published her work in his magazine Household Words. Her ghost stories are in the "Gothic" vein. |
You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 2 Jan. 13 - Feb.2
Jan. 13 - 19}
Chapter 11 Making Friendship
Chapter 12 Preparing For The Wedding
Chapter 13 Molly Gibson's New Friends
Chapter 14 Molly Finds Herself Patronized
Chapter 15 The New Mamma
Chapter 16 The Bride At Home
Chapter 17 Trouble At Hamley Hall
Jan. 20- 22}
Chapter 18 Mr. Osborne's Secret
Chapter 19 Cynthia's Arrival
Chapter 20 Mrs Gibson's Visitors
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Chapters XI through XVII -- Jan. 13 - 19 Topics to Consider, and any others you would like to include.
1. Clare wants the wedding sooner than later. Why?
2. Gibson wants it later as does Lady Cumnor. Why?
3. Miss Browning almost chastises Mr Gibson when he comes to them for help before the wedding. Why would she do that?
4. Gaskell makes reference to Molly making a Pope out of Roger. What does she mean? What do you think Roger thinks of Molly, if he thinks anything.
5. Do you fnd Molly becoming more outspoken as time goes on? What do you think prompts this?
6. There didn’t seem to be much of a big to-do about the wedding. Gaskell doesn’t say much about it other than it went off the way most weddings Were you surprised that Molly did not have another dress to change into for dinner the night before the wedding?
7. What kind of person is Mr. Preston. We know Lady Harriet cannot abide him. Why does she tell Molly not to get near him?
8. What’s your take on Lady Harriet? Do you think she really thinks as highly about Clare as she says?
9. Are you changing your opinions or assessments of any of the characters as the story goes on?
10.The bride and groom arrive home and many folk are unhappy about it. Why?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com ), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
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And I keep wondering why Clare is so anxious to keep her away? I even wonder if she has become a "lady of ill repute"?, with a mother who is not as careful with her reputation as Molly's father is with hers?
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Anxious to keep her daughter Cynthia away, JoanK?
Isn't she trying to do the very best by her daughter?
According to Doc Gibson: 'She's at school in France, picking up airs and graces.'
Clare is a wonderful creation. She's fortyish and restless and very good at taking stock of her assets and liabilities.
So funny. Can someone explain why, '...with advancing years, she could no longer blush; and at eighteen she had been very proud of her blushes.'
I've never read of the strange dynamics of English society as they are portrayed in this book.
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Anxious to keep her daughter Cynthia away, JoanK?
Isn't she trying to do the very best by her daughter?
I'll agree with JoanK there. And so might the Cumnor girls -- Lady Cuxhaven (Mary) remarks about how "The only thing that makes me uneasy now is the way in which she seems to send her daughter away from her so much; we never can persuade her to bring Cynthia with her when she comes to see us." p. 108
“Drifitng into danger” might also refer to the situation at the Hamleys, with Osborne now being the odd man out. The Squire and the Mrs learn the details from Roger. And for his homecoming dinner, Roger gets to enjoy the wine that was being saved for Osborne. Vae victis. Woe to the conquered, to the defeated. Alas, (Osborne) having been defeated.
Now that he has failed once, he’s not going to try for anything else. It seems like his parents have given up on him too.
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I'm not caught up to the Clare relationship or her daughter. Ughhh...I need to go catch up. Why did I think Gibson was hoping Mrs. Hamley was going to educate Molly with manners and soon to be woman knowledge? Guess I need to go back and see where I got that idea. I knew he was hoping to get her away for Coxe, so he arranged the visit to the Hamley's, but my understanding was she was to spend the time with Mrs. Hamley to help her with young women things. Roger comes home, oh dear, it's like taking the hen (Molly) out of the hen house because of the fox (Coxe) and placing her in the Fox hole (Roger). lolol
I have been playing catch up since I just got my book a few days ago, and my daycare was full to the rim today with 8 children, due to school closings from the snow. I hope to have a quiet, slow week end to get caught up.
Ciao for now~
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Not to worry, Bella - none of us know about "Clare's" daughter who is studying abroad in France - at this point we can only speculate where the money came from to send her away to perfect her French. I'm not sure why this will be an asset - perhaps to prepare for a position as a governess? Just guessing. Does Clare seem to you to be the type who would make such a sacrifice for her daughter's education? I'm beginning to question that as her character is slowly revealed...
The plan was for Molly to stay with the Hamley's a short time until her governess returned - but the governess, Miss Eyre, must stay with nephew who has come down with Scarlet Fever. - so Molly's visit is extended. The plan did not include the Hamley boys ever seeing the nubile young Molly. Good thing Osborne didn't come home - Molly seems to adore him from his mother's description.
Does anyone know if "Eyre" is a common name at this time...a governess named "Miss Eyre" is almost too much of a coincidence, don't you think?
Another name - can anyone explain why "Hyacynth" is called "Clare"?
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Sorry; but I have now read 200 of the 800 pages & still can't get interested in this book. I guess I am not in the mood for an old fashioned book right now. I will bow out & hopefully join this group in the discussion of the next book.
Sally
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I got so confused with all the different names and places introducing Clare, that I had to re read it 3xs, and still not sure I have anyone straight. From what little I did take away from the entire pages, was I am not so sure I like Clare. I sense she is going to cause some real issues in Gibson and Molly's relationship.
JoanP., " Does Clare seem to you to be the type who would make such a sacrifice for her daughter's education? I'm beginning to question that as her character is slowly revealed..."
I'm in agreement with you, in questioning Clare's character.
Molly has allowed herself to invent a true infatuation for Osborne. Such a pity since she has never met him. I'm thinking Osborne if and when he does come home, is going to break sweet Molly's heart. She is not even willing to be cordial to Roger. That should make for an interesting development in the Hamley house.
I think where I thought Molly was going to learn from Mrs. Hamley is because my "impression" was she needed it, and Gibson seems to have trust and respect in Mrs. Hamley. I see Molly coming into her womanhood, at the Hamleys under the watch of Mrs. Hamley.
Sally, sorry you did not enjoy the book. I am finding myself laughing out loud. Gaskell has done a terrific job with the humorous parts. I'm finally catching up and am really enjoying it. I love the innocence of Molly, and am looking forward to her first love interests.
Ciao for now~
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" it's like taking the hen (Molly) out of the hen house because of the fox (Coxe) and placing her in the Fox hole (Roger). "
I agree. On second thought, drifting into danger could apply to Roger as well. The parents certainly won't be pleased by THAT!
Clare vs Hyacinth means nothing to us Yanks. But in England, a lot of names have social class implications that we just don't get "across the pond." I'm going to make a leap and guess that Hyacinth has the air of someone trying to pretend to be more upper class than they are (like Hyacinth in a popular British sitcom).
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Also, Clare was what her employers insisted on calling her, so it was a reminder of having to make a living.
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I can't remember reading a book with so much absorbing detail. Gaskell seems to spell everything out so clearly, and then one sees the irony or the ambiguity. And depicting the English class system requires a geat deal of finesse. As in 'barrier of forms.' p122
Roger is talking with his mother, Mrs Hamley. 'Where is Molly? - Miss Gibson, I mean,' for she was careful to keep up a barrier of forms between the young man and young woman who were thrown together in the same household.'
I'm laughing with you, Bellamarie, over your suggestion of hen house and fox hole. Gibson is worried about the fox, and the Hamleys are worried about the hen in the house, with their boys expected home. Osborne is staying away, however, too embarrassed to come home. And isn't his father angry?
Where's the money coming from? JoanP asks. Cynthia is paying her own way, teaching English to the French girls. Her mother is enhancing her qualifications, grooming her daughter to be a better governess when she returns to England.
Clare herself is certainly a very successful governess. Or was. Still well liked by the Earl and Countess. Being called Clare by her former employers is one of those 'barrier of forms' things, I think. Calling her by her first name, Hyacinth, just wouldn't do. From being a governess to the daughters to being a companion to their mother the Countess of Cumnor is no small thing. She responds to the invitation to come out to the rich country house, The Towers, with alacrity. What a treat to leave her own house, 'full of battered and shabby furniture', and come 'bowling through the Towers Park in the luxurious carriage sent to meet her...to pass up the deep-piled carpets into my lady's own room'...etc, etc., delightful reading. '...so ready to talk...so willing to listen...about novels and poetry, travels and gossip...with sense enough to confine herself to those short expressions of wonder, admiration, and astonishment, which may mean anything, when more recondite things were talked about.' Beginning of Chapter 9, The Widower and the Widow.
Who is being more successful with raising a daughter. Molly and Cynthia. Will the daughters eventually compare notes?
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From Chapter 9
Lord Hollingford: 'Excuse me, Gibson, but we're talking like friends. Have you never thought of marrying again? It would not be like a first marriage, of course; but if you found a sensible, agreeable woman of thirty or so, I really think you couldn't do better than take her to manage your home, and so save you either discomfort or worry; and, besides she would be able to give your daughter that kind of tender supervision which, I fancy, all girls of that age require. It's a delicate subject, but you'll excuse my having spoken frankly.'
Mr Gibson had thought of this advice several times since it was given; but it was a case of 'first catch your hare.' Where was the sensible and agreeable woman of thirty or so? Not Miss Browning, nor Miss Phoebe, nor Miss Goodenough. Among his country patients there were two classes pretty distinctly marked, farmers, whose children were unrefined and uneducated; squires, whose daughters would, indeed, think the world was coming to a pretty pass, if they were to marry a country surgeon.
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Bellamarie, I'm with you in the confusion department. There are so many details and after one has read a few chapters it's hard to keep straight what happened when. But it's a delightful story and the characters are fascinating. And it's becoming easier to point out their flaws and peculiarities.
One thing that was puzzling me, and I think I have it straight now, is the character of Lord Hollingford. He's the oldest child of Lord and Lady Cumnor, a brother to Lady Harriet? Not much has been said of him other than he was a widower with boys, and a scientist of some repute. I think I was interchanging him with Lord Cumnor. But both he and his father really pushed for Gibson's remarriage.
And can you imagine how Lady Cumnor must have felt when Clare came upon Lord C's comment "about Clare and Gibson." OOPs!!!
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Pedln, I have got to write down each character and which family they belong to and where they live, or staying or visiting. Ughh...I think I am keeping them straight, but then your post made me think I totally forgot about Lord Hollingford. ???
I actually enjoyed the proposal, and think Gibson and Clare each have their reasons for the marriage to take place. Neither is confessing an undying love, yet they both do in fact seem smitten with each other. They both see the pros of being married, and I don't see anything wrong with either, wanting better for themselves, their children or future. What just tickled me to death was how dear old Lady Hamley reads the letter aloud to Gibson, making him aware that Clare had already had the insight as to what was hopefully intended. Why did Lady Hamley, basically pop their bubble of happiness at that moment? She knew full well what she was doing to them, not just exposing something about Clare's character, but she also knew it would take some of the excitement away from the entire proposal. Hmmmm...seems if she has her way, she will not make this entirely easy for the two of them. What is her motive?
Jonathon it is quite comical when you see what can happen with this set up. :D
Poor Molly, is so very heartbroken to learn of the upcoming marriage. I must say Roger proved to be a very sweet and caring person, trying to console Molly. Hence, the fox is eyeing the hen, and the hen is appreciating the fox's advice, even if his mother hen chimes in,
pg. 170 "He has a good heart, but he isn't so tender in his manner as Osborne. Roger is a little rough sometimes."
Molly responds with: "Then I like roughness. It did me good. It made me feel how badly__oh, Mrs. Hamley, I did behave so badly to papa this morning."[/i]
If Roger was not tender in words, he was in deeds. Unreasonable and possibly exaggerated as Molly's grief had appeared to him, it was real suffering to her; and he took some pains to lighten it, in his own way, which was characteristic enough.
RUT OH!
So, I suppose the big suspense for me, is for Osborne and Cynthia to come home, so we can see the interaction of these young people. Molly seems interested in meeting Cynthia, although if Clare has anything to do with it, it will not be too soon.
This cracked me up.... "Hyacinth!" said Molly bewildered. "Yes; Hyacinth! It's the silliest name I ever heard of; but it's hers, and I must call her by it. I can't bear Clare, which is what my lady and all the family at the Towers call her; and "Mrs. Kirkpatrick" is formal and nonsensical too; as she'll change her name so soon.".........."And the worst is, she's gone and perpetuated her own affected name by having her daughter called after her. Cynthia! One thinks of the moon, and the man in the moon with his bundle of faggots. I'm thankful you're plain Molly, child."
What on earth does he mean referring to a "bundle of faggotss". Good grief!! :) :) : ::) ::) ::) ::)
I am finally caught up!!! Now I am very anxious to begin next weeks chapters to see where all of this is going.
Ciao for now~
p.s. I tried to post several times today and kept getting a data error?
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Hello, everybody: I have been reading along this week catching up. I hope it's okay to just jump in here. I love this book having read it and studied it in graduate school 50 years ago! I had forgotten how good it is, how very well structured and how memorable the details of the story. I have been a Latin student for a few years now but have very seldom participated in the book club, but I will try to keep up and complete this one, because the discussion is most informative.
Hello, Pedln, good to hear from you. We were in NYC together and also helpers together in a Latin class or two.
Someone asked about the competency of Clare as a governess, and I would like to add that she was not very competent. Lady Cumnor's daughters discuss their childhood, and Harriet says that Lady Cumnor was too busy being a great lady to pay much attention to her daughters' education. She is kind and diplomatic but direct in her criticism. She says that anyone "not particular about education" would keep Clare, but in truth that there were "veiled flirtations" going on between Clare and the school masters from outside, and that Lady Cumnor often took Clare away from the girls to write notes for her and to do accounts "at the most critical times in our lessons." Hence Harriet is the "most ill informed girl in London," not a crucial problem in this society but one worth mentioning because Mrs. Gaskell did believe in education for women. Clare also made little Harriet a confidente in matters concerning her marriage to Mr. Kirkpatrick, which was totally inappropriate, although Harriet can chuckle about it now as a 28, almost 29 year old adult. Harriet's sister Mary is involved in her daughters' education and provides a positive contrast to her mother.
I look forward to the next section of the book and discussion.
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Lucy! What a pleasant surprise to find you with us this morning! You are very welcome! Thank you so much for shining the spotlight on Clare, as a governess. Also on Lady Harriet, who seems to have a good head on her shoulders in spite of the fact that she is "the most ill-informed girl in London." I think we are going to be seeing more of her - this is a small village.
Some of you noticed that we had a minor crash here yesterday, which was rectified by a resetting to the last backup - all the way back to Friday pm, wiping out most of yesterday's posts. Really, really sorry about that. Will try to reread your posts and recreate the responses they inspired when later this morning - but those posts are gone forever. I hope you do to if your posts were lost.
Only recently we discovered that the novel is divided into six sections, and realized we'll never be able to discuss the 60 chapters by the end of January. So, we made the decision to continue through February.
Tomorrow we will move on to the next chapters of Part II. (The first ten chapters made up Part I.) To make it clear which chapters of Part II we'll be discussing, we've included the names of the titles. Will you look over this schedule to see if you understand which chapters we'll be discussing in the coming week? Will continue to post the discussion schedule in the heading - which is the first post at the top of each page.
Discussion Schedule:
Part 2 Jan. 13 - Feb.2
Jan. 13 - 19}
Chapter 11 Making Friendship
Chapter 12 Preparing For The Wedding
Chapter 13 Molly Gibson's New Friends
Chapter 14 Molly Finds Herself Patronized
Chapter 15 The New Mamma
Chapter 16 The Bride At Home
Chapter 17 Trouble At Hamley Hall
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Good morning all! Welcome Lucy, I am so happy you pointed out Clare's lack of good judgements while governess to the three daughters of Lady Cumnor's, (Harriet, Mary and Agnes). While Harriet reveals Clare used her as a confidante, her sister Mary, who now has two daughters of her own says, "She hopes "her" governess, does not confide in her two daughter Lily and Grace."
Mary tells her mother “The only thing that makes me uneasy now is the way in which she (Clare) seems to send her daughter (Cynthia) away from her so much; we never can persuade her to bring Cynthia with her when she comes to see us.”
Harriet says, "Mary finds fault with Clare for her modesty and economy.” Pg 141
Harriet says she and Clare are always great friends, I was her confidant in her loves with poor Mr. Kirkpatrick, and we've kept up our intimacy ever since. I know of three offers she had besides.
Interesting that Harriet mentions Clare had "three offers besides" Kirikpatrick. I suppose that would be a bit of a flirt.
There are so many characters we have yet to interact with, I can't wait to see it all come together, I'm suspecting for the wedding. It's almost like a Lampoon's wedding to take place!! Well maybe I am finding a bit too much humor in this story. :) :)
JoanP., So glad you got the problem solved.
Must go get ready for church.....thanks for the new schedule posted. I wondered how we were going to finish this huge book up in one month's time. More fun for February!!!!!
Ciao for now~
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Lucy, it's great to see you here. I'm so glad you can be part of our discussion. Good points about Clare's competancy as a governess, and her indescrepancies with her charges, with Lady Harriet, anyway.
What on earth does he mean referring to a "bundle of faggotss".
Bellamarie, from what I can find, faggots refers to a bundle of sticks that the man in the moon is carrying on his back. According to British folklore, this man was placed on the moon because he broke the Sabbath by collecting sticks on that day. What I can't figure out is why Mr. Gibson refers to it when speaking of Hyacinth, Clare's name and Cynthia, the name of her daughter, unless it's because that also in folklore, Hyacinth refers to one of the moons.
PatH, do you have this in your annotated edition?
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Speaking of governesses, I've been meaning to ask if anyone here is familiar enough with Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre written 20 years before Wives, to compare her with Molly's governess, Miss Eyre. Reading that Elizabeth Gaskell and Charlotte Bronte were friends, I wonder if the use of the same name was significant, a coincidence or just Mrs. Gaskell's recognition of her old friend, perhaps?
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I'm guessing just a tip of the hat to an old friend. Miss Eyre here isn't a well-developed character, not nearly as complex as Jane Eyre.
My notes talk about the fanciness of the names Hyacinth and Cynthia, but don't explain the faggots.
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WELCOME, LUCY. Interesting that this book is read in graduate school. Are others of Gaskell's works also read?
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Lucy, welcome! It's good to have yet another enthusiast in our discussion.
We have hints of what an unsatisfactory governess Clare was even before Lady Harriet talks about it. She has changed jobs many times. Presumably she is hired because she is so presentable, and makes a good first impression, then let go when they see she isn't serious.
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Welcome, Lucy. Tell us more about how Wives and Daughters was taught and studied in grad school. Obviously literary scholars and academics feel that Gaskell has earned a place in English literature.
The book has a lot of merit. The strange literary allusions are an unusual feature. So far into the book I'm delighted to be enjoying a very classy soap opera.
Clare is a sweetheart. I'm not surprised at all the offers she gets. Marriage is certainly a practical matter with her. As it for the Molly's father. But to be jealous of her own daughter is puzzling.
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Oh my, what to do about Clare. It appears she’s seen in many different lights. Jonathan sees her as a wonderful creation, a real sweetheart, a successful governess. Lucy, PatH, and Bellamarie aren’t so sure. Lucy claims she was not a very competent governess, and some of you expressed concern about her inappropriate confidences with her charges. I find her to be manipulative and have taken a strong dislike to her since Molly’s first stay at the Towers, where she fell asleep after too much time in the sun. Clare places blame on Molly because she overslept. And she continues to twist things that don’t show her in a positive light, placing blame on someone else. I can’t put my finger on specifics right now, but they will be popping up.
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Jonathon,
Clare is a sweetheart. I'm not surprised at all the offers she gets.
Oh my! I am surprised to hear this, when clearly her character has been in judgement.
Lady Cumnor is surely pointing out to Gibson, Clare's flaw of secrecy and manipulation, when she deliberately reads the letter aloud to Gibson, revealing Clare already knew of the possibility. When they return to the library they both are uncomfortable because Clare knows she has been outed, and Gibson must be wondering if she can be trusted. Yet, he needs and wants a lady/mother figure for Molly in fear of his daughter being around the young apprentices, so he is willing to take a chance on Clarel. But then Mrs. Hamley does say, not all engagements end in marriage. So, is it possible the wedding does not take place? Lady Cumnor and Mrs. Hamley the two elderly women are not fond of Clare and Gibson's union. This is a red flag for me because they are the elders and wiser ones. Any mother who has a jealousy of her daughter's youth and good looks, so she keeps her away from her presence says much about her character. I could never imagine such an attitude from a mother.
pedln, Thank you so much for the info of bundle of sticks and the moon. I'm sensing Gibson dislikes the names so much so that he sees the both of them burdened with a bundle of sticks on their back. Yet more of Gaskell's humor. ;)
Yes, pedln, Clare did indeed blame Molly for oversleeping. And if you recall, she also did not want Lady Hollingford know she ate the food on the plate that was prepared for Molly, so she led her to believe Molly ate the entire plate. Gaskell is definitely dropping us bread crumbs, to lead us to the conclusion this woman is not to be trusted.
Sorry Jonathon, you may have to take the insight of us women, and not be taken in as other men have with our Clare/Hyacinth!
I say in jest. ;D
Had a busy day today, so now I must go read the next chapters.
Ciao for now~
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:) "Clare is a sweetheart. I'm not surprised at all the offers she gets." Bella, this is Jonathan's tongue-in-cheek humor here - taking the part of those males who are taken in by Clare's many charms. But she has agreed to marry Molly's father. Will she continue her flirtations - or settle down to the demands of a busy doctor's wife in exchange for the need to eke out a living as a teacher?
So this is really a marriage of convenience. The whole agreement doesn't look too promising from where I sit. He's marrying her to provide a mother for Molly. Increasingly, Molly sees through Clare - without being able to put her concerns into words. Is it safe to say that Molly doesn't need, or want a mother? Too bad she can't communicate better with her father. We seem to become one with the narrator. The all-seeing narrator, Mrs. Gaskell, is making us even more aware of Clare's motives than Molly is able to discern. I'm enjoying the unusual view, aren't you?
Today we will move into Part II - and hope you will realize that you don't need to cover all of these wedding chapters this week - keep an eye on the heading if you are wondering how far to go. The following week, we'll complete the remaining chapters of Part II. Please let us know if you are the least bit confused abouut the schedule.
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Remember it was 50 years ago that I was in graduate school studying the 19th century novel. Mrs. Gaskell was not part of the main curriculum but alluded to for her unusual accomplishments as a novelist having been singled out by Dickens and being a woman who lived an otherwise typical domestic life. I read her because I was searching for a topic for a paper and looking ahead to the possibility of writing a Ph.D. dissertation, which I never did.
As for women who are jealous of the youth and beauty of their daughters, it is not unknown. Dr. Phil has addressed such women occasionally on his show. The reason is usually that they feel cheated of their own youth and maybe have become more attractive in middle age, such as having had plastic surgery or having lost weight, and now want to take advantage of their improved status, observing the many opportunities that their daughters have for admiration.
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I am not saying that Mrs. Gaskell had anything like this in mind, just that it is a psychological aberration that occurs in life. I think Mrs. Gaskell was just showing us the negative side of Clare's character.
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Mr. Gibson has been hit from all sides by those who think he should remarry, and as Bellamarie tells us, the cat is out of the bag. Mrs. Kirkpatrick knew before Mr. Gibson what was going to take place – don’t you think. But after that very short courtship the poor man is now concentrating on her good points.
Is it safe to say that Molly doesn't need, or want a mother?
I don’t know about that, JoanP. She would probably be very happy if the mother were like Mrs Hamley. She seems to thrive and is happy in her presence. She’s rather an enigma to me. She’s naïve, but is very observant, and not afraid to speak her mind, though she manages to be tactful while doing it. A wonderful example being her passioned response to Lady Cumnor’s suggestion that she stay with Clare at the school at Ashcombe before the wedding. "I don't think it would be nice at all. I mean, my lady, that I should dislike it very much; it would be taking me away from papa just these very few last months.
Lucy, that would have been a fascinating thesis. Would it have been a first on Elizabeth Gaskell?
I think Mrs. Gaskell was just showing us the negative side of Clare's character.
You are kind, Lucy. I wonder what we would list under the PROS column for Clare.
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"Mrs. Gaskell was not part of the main curriculum but alluded to for her unusual accomplishments as a novelist having been singled out by Dickens"
Your mention of the fact that Dickens invited Mrs. Gaskell to write for his Household Words reminds me of an article I read on their relationship during the publication of the serialized installments of Wives and Daughters, Lucy. The myriad details in Mrs. Gaskell's writing has been mentioned several times in this discussion. Apparently Dickens was complelled to require heavy editing so that her installments would fit in the allotted space in each edition. She had a most difficult time with this and their relationship was becoming more strained - to the point where she claimed she'd never publish in his magazine again. Of course she didn't, she passed away before she completed this novel.
I wonder if the edited version, the complete version is included in the books we are reading...or if we are reading the abbreviated version! :D
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Lucy, Yes, I had a very good friend who had a mother very similar to Clare. She was constantly needing to be center of attention and pointed out her own beauty, shape, assets etc. to anyone at any of the family gatherings. I felt very sad for my friend, because it strained their mother/daughter relationship. So I am aware mothers can and do compete with their daughter's youth and beauty, I just was voicing out loud, I can't imagine it! It shows the mother's insecurities and character flaws in my opinion.
JoanP., LOLOL Yes, I was laughing throughout my entire post responding to Jonathon, but then he has not yet confirmed it was "tongue in cheek." So the jury is out until I hear from him. :) :) This book is a lot of fun for sure!
I wonder if the edited version, the complete version is included in the books we are reading...or if we are reading the abbreviated version!
Now this would be very interesting to find out. What would Dickens disapprove of, so much so, he would insist Gaskell should remove from the articles?
So on to chapter 11 Making Friendship
Wow! Clare certainly has her work cut out for her with sweet Molly. Yes indeed, Molly is able to speak up for herself when she needs to. She is no shrinking violet. She already knows Clare lied about her eating all the food on the plate, and her oversleeping, so she has got her defenses up.
pg. 175 & 176, Clare, "And he is so fond of you, dear." Molly's colour flushed into her face. She did not want an assurance of her own father's love from this strange woman. She could not help being angry; all she could do was to keep silent. "you don't know how he speaks of you; "his little treasure" as he calls you. I'm almost jealous sometimes."
ALMOST jealous....I would say she is completely jealous!
Geez, please forgive me if I get my Ladies mixed up, But I thought this was very telling:
pg. 178 Mrs. Kirkpatrick led her into Lady Cumnor's presence by the hand, and, in presenting her, said__"My dear little daughter, Lady Cumnor!"
"Now, Clare, don't let me have nonsense. She is not your daughter yet, and may never be__I believe that one-third of the engagements I have heard of have never come to marriages."
I could just hear, "Now Clare, don't count your chickens before they are hatched....Or.... Now Clare, don't get your knickers in a bunch." ;D ;D
Then comes more humor..... "you and she must become better acquainted__you know nothing of each other at present; you are not to be married till Christmas, and what could be better than that she should go back with you to Ashcombe! She would be with you constantly, and have the advantage of the companionship of your young people, which would be a good thing for an only child! It's a capital plan; I'm very glad I thought of it!"
Now it would be difficult to say which of the Lady Cumnor's two hearers was the most dismayed at the idea had taken possession of her.
Oh my gosh I thought I would spit a rib laughing at this. Dear old Mrs. Cumnor is surely having a field day with Clare, yet at the expense of poor Molly. The two of them were mortified at the thought of having to spend that much time together.
pedln, "She would probably be very happy if the mother were like Mrs Hamley. She seems to thrive and is happy in her presence."
I agree, I think Molly would accept a stepmother, if indeed she knew it was a nice, caring, loving, trustworthy woman, who had her and her father's best interest at heart. The way Clare has presented herself to Molly from their very first introduction, to now her trying to manipulate her, as though she knows her father better than herself, there is no way Molly is feeling comfortable with Clare being her stepmother.
I'll try NOT to read the entire next chapters too quickly, but I must say, it's got my interest piqued as to what comes next.
Ciao for now~
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I can only see this relationship going from bad to worse, as Clare's superficial lovingness wears off.
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Abbreviated version, JoanP? Assuredly, it must be. 8) What interesting pieces of Gaskell history we’re getting here, from you and Lucy. I had overlooked that she died before the book was finished. Who completed it for her?
Can you sympathize with her? Minute details were her style. It would be like telling Nanny to dress a child for a party, but don’t pay any attention to her shoes and socks, or the hair ribbons.
This book is a lot of fun for sure!
Indeed it is, Bellamarie, and I know one of my favorite scenes will be Lady Cumnor’s suggestion to Clare that Molly return to Ashcombe with her so they can get to know one another better. Oh my, the looks of horror on both their faces.
I can only see this relationship going from bad to worse
I agree JoanK. She is a coniver, that one. Not one bit does she want the pretty, sparkling Cynthia at the wedding, to be compared with her still pretty, but fading mother, who no longer carries the bloom of youth. But of course she changed her mind (for about 20 hours) after Mr. Gibson gave her 15 pounds to cover the cost of Cynthia’s journey home and back to school.
I’m not quite sure I understand the ins and outs of the life interest from Mr. Kirkpatrick. (Any more than I understand the inheritance in Downton Abbey.)
Speaking of Downton, I can’t help seeing some of the same attitudes there that are in Wives and Daughters. Like the visit from the Australian singer Nellie Melba. Two points against her – she’s from Australia and she’s a singer. Eat dinner with the guests? Heaven forbid.
But now we have a wedding to prepare for. But there really hasn't been a lot of dialogue between the bride and groom, and Mr Gibson is in a bit of a pickle because the townspeople know nothing of his plans, including the Brownings.
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'She died before the book was finished.' 'Who completed it for her?' Good question, Pedln.
The introduction in my book has this to say: 'With only a chapter or so left to write and the story's completion clearly in view, she was at the The Lawns, Holybourne, near Alton in Hampshire, a house she had recently purchased and was in process of furnishing. She was taking tea with members of her family in 12 November 1865, when in the midst of a sentence she fell forward and was dead.'
I believe the house was acquired with the earnings from Wives and Daughters, and was intended for retirement for her and her husband, the Reverend Gaskell.
And that raises an interesting point. Clare has just lost her husband of many years, also a churchman, the curate Mr Kirkpatrick. I'm convinced Gaskell had tremendous fun creating the character of the ex-governess. I'm sure she was her favorite in the book she was writing.
If my post seemed written with tongue in cheek, it was only partly so, in imitation of Gaskell. And I can't get over how she teases the reader. Makes a statement and then adds a rider which changes everything. As for example, at the beginning of Chapter XI: We're led to believe it's jealousy that will keep Cynthia away at the wedding. But then we're told: 'she saw further reasons in her own mind for Cynthia's remaining quietly at her school at Boulogne.'
'Lady Cumnor and Mrs. Hamley the two elderly women are not fond of Clare and Gibson's union. This is a red flag for me because they are the elders and wiser ones.'
There are so many things to reply to in your posts, Bellamarie. Why are these two unhappy with the coming marriage? Is it because each is losing a valued companion?
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I don't know who tied up the loose ends, but Mrs. Gaskell had left copious information about what was to happen in the little bit remaining.
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I'll bet she did, Pat. Considering the length of the book she had written - and the fact that she was working on the final chapter when she died - I'm certain the book ended satisfactorily and we will not be left hanging as we were when Dickens died before completing The Mystery of Edwin Drood....remember that? I found this to answer the question about who finished Wives and Daughters.
"When Gaskell died suddenly in 1865, Wives and Daughters was not quite complete. Her editor, Frederick Greenwood, wrote an appended section describing what Gaskell had planned for the remaining chapters in her notes. There are no surprises for us here, but it would have been nice to read it in her own words.
While I lament that Gaskell was taken at the young age of 55, I will venture to say that I in fact prefer the ending this way. There is an intriguing and freeing quality to things left unsaid and loose ends left untied..."
I've abbreviated this article because it's full of spoilers. I have to say I was surprised to learn
she had an editor...other than Dickens - weren't you? Maybe Dickens was primarily concerned about the length of her submissions to his magazine.
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Maybe the ladies were influenced by Molly's dismay at the engagement, Jonathan. She is making friends with everyone she comes into contact with - including those in high places.
I completely related to Molly's "unsolved problem" - how did her father come to like her (Clare) enough to marry her? My father remarried when I turned 18. I had the same "unsolved problem" - the uncomfortable feeling that the marriage was somehow related to me.
Didn't you laugh aloud at Molly's reaction to Mrs. K's hand stroking - " purring out inarticulate loving sounds..." Too much for Miss Molly. "Tiresome." Molly is on to Clare.
None of us are referring to Clare as Hyacinth yet, have you noticed? Do you think we will as we get deeper into the story? Or will she always be Clare to us?
Speaking of her name, did anyone wonder about that mention of "an acrostic on her name by a lieutenant in the 53 rd?" What was that about?
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Jonathon,
Why are these two unhappy with the coming marriage? Is it because each is losing a valued companion?
Are you referring to Molly (NOT Clare) as the valued companion, since it will be safe for her to return to her home with a stepmother to keep the fox Coxe, away from hen Molly? Although they seem against the marriage, both ladies have had Clare as a guest/companion in their home so possibly they would not want to lose her. I sense there is a hidden reason, we haven't learned about. Which makes me wonder once again, just what did Gaskell mean earlier when she wrote, "Coxe knew things?" More bread crumbs being dropped....hmmmm.
I'm convinced Gaskell had tremendous fun creating the character of the ex-governess. I'm sure she was her favorite in the book she was writing.
Oh I am sure Gaskell loved creating Clare's character, but I'm sensing Mrs. Cumnor and Mrs. Hamley were her favorites. They are mine so far. These two ladies are busting me up. They are calling Clare out on her every move.
pedln, Yes! I could clearly picture Molly and Clare's faces, as Mrs. Cumnor suggests they spend that time together. Why do I sense Gaskell/ Mrs. Cumnor, are enjoying toying and torturing Clare? ;D
JoanP., I can't see myself referring to Clare as Hyacinth ever! She will always be "Clare" in my mind.
So how do you think Clare is going to take it once she finds out Gibson has asked Miss Browning to decorate his house?
Chapter 13 Molly Gibson's New Friends
pg. 196 The squire had heard that Osborne might probably return home for a few days before going abroad, and though the growing intimacy between Roger and Molly did not alarm him, in the least, yet he was possessed by a very hearty panic lest the heir might take a fancy to the surgeon's daughter, and he was in such a fidget for her to leave the house before Osborne came home, that his wife lived in constant terror lest he should make it too obvious to their visitor
Still, although they were drawn together in this very pleasant relationship, each was imagining some one very different for the future owner of their whole heart__their highest and completest love. Molly's little wavering maiden fancy dwelt on the unseen Osborne, who was now a troubadour, and now a knight, such as he wrote about in one of his own poems; some one like Osborne, perhaps, rather than Osborne himself, for she shrank from giving a personal form and name to the hero that was to be. The squire was not unwise in wishing her well out of the house before Osborne came home, if he was considering her peace of mind.
RUT OH! I suspect Molly just may very well have her sights on the favored, prodigal son, which will not bode well with his parents.
Molly and Gibson are having dinner with Mr. Preston and this puzzled me....
pg. 205 "Her father's depression,which was still continuing and rendering him very silent, made her uneasy; yet she wished to conceal it from Mr. Preston and so she talked away, trying to obviate the sort of personal bearing which their host would give to everything."
Why is Gibson depressed?
Gaskell, sure does have us coming and going. Everything seems a puzzle piece, yet when you think it fits you realize, nope, not what it seems. I would imagine she had many notes, making it possible for her editor to figure out what she intended the ending to be. Although, not knowing she would not be the one to finalize it, since she was perfectly healthy, and had no reason to believe she herself would not finish the book, how would we know, if in fact she would not have gone in a different direction, than what the ending turns out to be? After all, Dickens did have her editing it continuously. With the humor speckled all throughout the book, I could sense her giggling, and making a sudden change, taking something into an entire different direction, enjoying the unexpected. Guess it's something we will never know. But what I do know, she must have died a happy person writing this fun story!
Ciao for now~
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Why is Gibson depressed? He is about to marry a woman he hardly knows and does not have any idea what life with her will be like. He is mostly devoted to his profession and doesn't care much about food, house decor, and social activities. Yet this part of his life will be altered in ways that he cannot foresee and may not like. Surely he is aware that Clare is frivolous and "flimsy" in her character. He has experienced her refusal to include her daughter in her marriage plans and must be puzzled about it. How can he extricate himself from his relationship with Clare? After marriage it will be nearly impossible, and he has missed the opportunity to pull out before the ceremony takes place, which is this case would have been not to propose to her at all without getting to know her and finding out more about her. In Victorian times people did not have anything like the fluidity and freedom in relationships that we enjoy today.
When I get some time I will look over some of the current scholarship on Mrs. Gaskell. There was a substantial amount 50 years ago, and I know there is more now. Scholars have been interested in her life as a Victorian woman and her relationship with Dickens for a long time. I can no longer remember studies and facts about Mrs. Gaskell and am enjoying the novel for itself.
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Lucy - for all those reasons, Dr. Gibson realizes that his life will change and he will have to make concessions for this new wife of his. But he is still willing to go through with it for Molly's sake. Couldn't you feel his reaction (dismay?) when Mr. Coxe is called from the practice to spend the rest of his bachelor uncle's life caring for him. The doctor wonders "if this had happened months earlier if circumstances might have changed." You bet they would! The only reason he felt the need to marry was to protect Molly from Mr. Coxe's amourous attention. Do you think Dr. Gibson would have married Mrs. Kirkpatrick if Mr. Coxe was no longer in the picture? But then, there would be no story, would there?
So it is clear that the wedding is to go forward - we're told that Molly is going to try to like Mrs. Kirkpatrick... I have not doubt she will. Try.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/wivesdaughters/wivescover.jpg) |
Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
The best-known of her remaining novels are Cranford (1853), North and South (1854), and Wives and Daughters (1865). She became popular for her writing, especially her ghost stories, aided by Charles Dickens, who published her work in his magazine Household Words. Her ghost stories are in the "Gothic" vein. |
You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 2 Jan. 13 - Feb.2
Jan. 13 - 19}
Chapter 11 Making Friendship
Chapter 12 Preparing For The Wedding
Chapter 13 Molly Gibson's New Friends
Chapter 14 Molly Finds Herself Patronized
Chapter 15 The New Mamma
Chapter 16 The Bride At Home
Chapter 17 Trouble At Hamley Hall
Jan. 20- 22}
Chapter 18 Mr. Osborne's Secret
Chapter 19 Cynthia's Arrival
Chapter 20 Mrs Gibson's Visitors
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Some Things to Think About
Chapters XVIII-XX ~ January 20-22(to the end of Mrs. Gibson's Visitors)
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER XVIII. Mr. Osborne's Secret
What are your impressions of Osborne in this chapter?
Did you guess Osborne's secret? We are not given any details. What are your thoughts about the situation?
What is the reaction of each of the Hamleys?
What are Molly's feelings in leaving Hamley Hall?
CHAPTER XIX. Cynthia's Arrival
We finally meet Cynthia. How would you describe her? What are some of the sentences said by herself or others about her that you found interesting or enlightening.
What do we learn about Cynthia's relationship with her mother? Do you think that Cynthia is like or unlike Clare?
Did you notice some "secrets" that are alluded to?
CHAPTER XX. Mrs. Gibson's Visitors
What do you make of the visit of Mr. Preston and the reactions of Clare and Cynthia?
What does Cynthia think of Osborne?
What is Osborne's reaction to Cynthia? What does Molly think about it?
What is Mr. Gibson's view of Cynthia?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com ), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
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I am enjoying it, too. I keep comparing Gaskell to Jane Austen: they have the same way of tweaking you with little insights: but their insights are quite different. Gaskell, with her sensitivity to class differences sees things Austen never mentions.
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Molly Gibson reminds me a bit of Jane Austen's Anne Elliot in Persuasion, Joan. A younger, Anne, perhaps. A heart of gold, ready to lend a hand whenever needed, even though her heart breaks at times. Not sure if anyone has captured Molly's heart, just yet.
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Molly's heart? Does she have one? Her emotional life is still subject to her 'little wavering maiden fancy.' Well, of course there is Osborne. And her father. Is she ever has to choose between the two...wow! Perhaps she will ask Clare for advice.
What an engrossing book. And I love all your livley comments. I'm willing to concede, Bellamarie, that I'm at a disadvantage at sorting out all these complex relationships. I find it an irony that the matchmakers are the Lord and the Squire.
Many good questions being asked. Like JoanP's: 'How did her father come to like Clare?'
Let me count the ways. There are so many complimentary comments scattered about the book regarding Clare's character:
1, 'so pretty and so graceful in her deep mourning' p14
2, with Clare, 'a running flow of easy talk came bubbling out all the time' p17
3, 'she is highly respected by Lord and Lady Cumnor'
4, 'she has very agreeable and polished manners' p114
5, 'with all her winning wiles' p127
6, 'I long to be making you happy' (spoken to her prospective husband)
7, 'her elegance of appearance and manner and her accomplishments' p128
8, she's 'good at steering conversation'
9, she's adept at not allowing her scruples to get in her way in going after what she wants. It's important to note that she have scurples.
I just can't see her as frivolous and flimsy. I am surprised at her being lead astray by her wishful thinking. 'She hoped that Mr Gibson's ardour would be such that he that he would press on the marriage, and urge her never to resume her school drudgery.... She seeks release from the thraldom of keeping school.'
Gibson's ardour? That was exhausted years ago, when he was in love with 'poor Jeanie, not so old, (as Molly), and how I did love her'. p48
Cynthia doesn't miss much by not being at the wedding, does she. I get the feeling that the wedding was more rigmarole that the author wanted to get beyond.
'The squire was not unwise in wishing her well out of the house before Osborne came home, if he was considering her peace of mind.'
I like the insight in that, Bellamarie. Good quote.
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It's interesting to read that there were taxes on schools, such as Clare was running. Was the school set up for her by Lord Cumnor? She must have been poorly off after her husband died. Her governess days were long passed. She was the wife of Rev Kirkpatrick for at least eighteen years. Cynthia's lifetime, plus.
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She was the wife of Rev Kirkpatrick for at least eighteen years. Cynthia's lifetime, plus.
18 years married? Jonathan, you are posing math problems for me. For a book that is so filled with details I find that Mrs. Gaskell has still left much for the reader to discern. I’ve been thinking all along that Cynthia was a small child when Mr. K died, and that Clare became a governess after his death. (But what did she do with Cynthia while she was a governess) But a brief rereading shows a reference made by a Cumnor about him dying after Clare left (the Cumnor employ.) I’m a wee bit confused about some of the details. I think she stopped being a governess when she got married. She liked being a lady, and putting her feet up, and did not return to working until after his death.
But she is having a rather rough time financially, taxes included. I guess if there’s earned income, there will be a tax. Unfortunately, not enough earned income. She really needs a husband, the quicker, the better.
I love the list of pros for Clare. No doubt many of them carry a “ , but. . .”
Okay, so it seems that most of us here realize that Clare blows hot and cold, depending on what is best for her. And Gibson’s main concern (and reason for the marriage?) is Molly. And Molly is wonderng how the devil did these two ever decide to get married. Do they or did they even really know each other.
Bellamarie, I am so enjoying the character of Lady Cumnor, who, as you have pointed out, seems to enjoy torturing Clare. And, as the lady herself has said, “you have your work cutout for you, Clare, “ I think she finds Molly to be a breath of fresh air.
Joans P&K, it’s good to have your comments about similarities and differences between Jane Austen and Mrs. Gaskell.
Someone has said that there wasn’t much of a to-do about the wedding. It came and was done. But lots of preparations, and we get to know the Brownings a little better. Poor Phoebe. She almost had the hopes raised.
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Yes, the wedding will take place. But for the life of me I can't understand why? All red flags are waving....STOP!!!
JoanP., I have not gotten to Coxe having to leave. I didn't sense he would be much a part of Molly's life at the present time, with dear Osborne now home. Who knows, he may return later, an accomplished doctor, and she may see him differently, and learn of his letter, where he professed his love for her, once she gets beyond her admiration, and infatuation with HERO Osborne. At some point, Molly has to learn, she was sent away from her home, and this entire marriage was decided by her father, after intercepting Coxe's letter. Oh dear, I fear I am trying to write Gaskell's ending. :-[
Lucy, I agree, and Gibson has to be wondering about Clare's character, since he knows from their first meeting, she was not forthcoming about the letter suggesting they marry, then she does not want her own daughter Cynthia at their wedding. Gibson adores his daughter, and is willing to take a second wife, for the protection of his dear daughter, Molly. Gibson knows his daughter, he has to see how difficult it is for her, and the fact neither Clare nor Molly wanted to even spend time together before the wedding, has to make him aware of both their feelings. He must feel it's his only choice to go through with this wedding, regardless of seeing all the red flags, we readers are seeing. And now Coxe will be gone? Oh my, sacrificing his and Molly's relationship and peacefulness, all for nought. But then as JoanP., pointed out, there would be no story.
Jonathon, I do believe you are truly smitten with Clare. No tongue in cheek what so ever. I like seeing a guy's perspective where Clare is concerned.
After reading Jane Austen's books, I fear she has spoiled me for life, and every 18th-19th Century story taking place in England has me feeling the spirit of Austen in them. Austen and Gaskell, do manage to throw in the humor for their readers.
No frills and thrills as far as the wedding is concerned. If anything I was a bit let down and disappointed, such a special occasion, and yet nothing to describe the ceremony, dresses, reactions, celebration, etc. I am a romantic at heart and looked forward to descriptive here.
Yes, we did get to learn more about the Browning sisters, and Lady Harriet. I loved this"
pg. 214 Molly, "I shall come some day soon, and bring you a load of Miss Edgeworth's tales, and make further acquaintance with Pecksy and Flapsy."
"No, don't please," said Molly, taking hold of her, to detain her. "You must not come__indeed you must not."
"Why not?"
"Because I would rather not__because I think that I ought not to have any one coming to see me who laughs at the friends I am staying with, and calls them names," Molly's heart beat very fast, but she meant every word that she said.
WOW! Miss Molly sure does have the stamina and good sense to speak up to those, when she feels the need to. And to think Clare and Harriet were, and are still, close friends. Hmmmm.....Birds of a feather, flock together.
Ciao for now~
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BellaMarie: I agree that the marriage would not have taken place if Coxe had left earlier. The motive for the marriage is to protect Molly, and it is not a good enough reason and should not have been the only remedy available to him. It's rather too late to shield Molly because it is time for her to be entering society with a view to learning what kind of a future she wants and choosing an appropriate husband, if you could call it "choosing," when so many unions were motivated by convenience and economic advantage. In Victorian society the options are limited, and it's almost certain she will marry and raise a family. Didn't people marry quite young at that time simply because lifespan wasn't as long and most people did not seek advanced aducatiuon?
At some point earlier in the novel Clare's charcter is described as :"flimsy." Sorry I do not have a page reference. I think the narrator says it and not Mr. Gibson.
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Chapter 16 The Bride at Home
Oh my heavens, could any woman be more self absorbed than Miss Dragon lady herself, Clare. My heart is so hurting for poor Molly. She has been forced to call this horrible woman "Mama" which is an endearment ONLY meant for your mother, or someone you feel as loving to replace her, in this case Molly does NOT want to replace her mother, nor does she wish to use this endearment with the dragon lady. I am so disappointed in Gibson, for dismissing his daughter's feelings.
Now, Clare has insulted and injured the dear old squire, and has been completely uncaring of Mrs. Hamley's health, and request to have Molly come at once. Then she turns around and blames Molly for HER rudeness. Seems Clare has got her sights on either Molly or Cynthia to be married to Osborne, for the estate to be left to him. She sure did monopolize Osborne, when he came to visit. Center of attention is her intent. I am so sad, she has redecorated Molly's room and taken away all of her mementos of her mother's. This entire chapter has truly upset me. She is clearly jealous that Molly even so much as got any attention from Lady Harriet. And for her to reveal the fact she was aware of the name calling of the Browning sisters, and went along with it sure did show her true colors. I can only imagine how much worse everything is going to get once Cynthia comes home.
So this chapter ends with Molly crying in her room. I want to cry with her.
Lucy, We are thinking alike, I too was wondering why Mr. Gibson is so ready to protect Molly from Coxe, when she is seventeen. I thought as you did, they married very young back in those days, so this entire calamity, could have been avoided if he had let Molly decide for herself in the letter matter. Yes, she is immature and not worldly, due to no governess, or mother, but at this rate even with Clare as her stepmother she is not allowing her to make decisions of her own.
There have been many positive words to describe Clare, as well as many negative words to describe her, by the author and characters in the story, but I think the readers can deduce for themselves what kind of person Clare truly is. I can almost see Molly choosing to stay away from her home as much as possible, just to avoid this horrible woman. She could care less if her husband eats or not, and he has no backbone to speak up for anything. Ughhh......this chapter has left me so frustrated!!!
Ciao for now~
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Am getting ready to walk out the door for multiple errands, but wanted to remark on Lucy's comment about "flimsy." The quote is from Chpt. 12, p. 168, the narrator's assessment right after Mr. Gibson has given Clare 15 pounds to pay for Cynthia's trip home for the wedding.
Whatever other faults might arise from her superficial and flimsy character, she was always uneasy till she was out of debt. Yet she had no scruple in appropriating her future husband's money to her own use, when it was decided that it was not to be employed as he intended.
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Thanks, Pedln, for identifying the quote. I am reading a Kindle edition and some on the subway where it is difficult to take notes,
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The notes and marks option on the kindle is very useful, but if I forget to mark something when I read it, I'm lost, and I forgot to mark the passage I wanted to talk about.
When Molly arrives for the wedding, and meets the man whose house they're staying at, Gaskell remarks that he greeted her with the flirtatious manner some men think they have to use to any woman under 25.
Some things never change. We all recognize what she means. And add to it that some men think they have to use that manner with any senior woman they meet.
They probably assume that these women are flattered. And too stupid to realize that that guarantees that nothing the women say or do will be listened to, or taken seriously.
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I think the evidence is lacking that would show Clare's character as 'superficial and flimsy'. In the same breath the author points to 'one of the few points to be respected in Mrs Kirkpatrick'...her determination to stay out of debt.
Spare a tear for Clare, Bellemarie. She has lived through many trials. What she hasn't endured in her lifetime...'and her liking for Mr Gibson grew in proportion to her sense of the evils from which he was going to serve as a means of escape.'
I find the narrator's comments prejudiced and gratuitous. And she seems genuinely surprised herself at what she is imagining. But it's all very clever and humorous.
Chapter 12 begins with: Meanwhile the love-affairs between the middle-aged couple were prospering well, after a fashion; after the fashion that they liked best, although it might probably have appeared dull and prosaic to younger people.'
And how do the matchmakers feel? Squire Hamley feels very sorry as he sees Molly's misery. Sorry that he had played the role of prophet: 'Pon my word, now, I wish I'd never spoken those unlucky words that first day at dinner...I must take more care what I say for the future.'
Lord Cumnor is in great glee. 'I told you so. Now didn't I say what a good, suitable thing this affair between Gibson and Clare would be! I don't know when I have been so much pleased.'
Molly and Clare are fellow sufferers. Molly, thinking about Roger's advice to care about others, concludes: 'It will be very dull when I shall have killed myself, as it were, and live only in trying to do, and to be, as other people like. I don't see any end to it. I might as well never have lived.'
And a few pages along, in the next chapter (12), Clare mulling over her fate in life, thinks: 'Indeed, many a little circumstance of former subjection to the will of others rose up before her during these quiet hours, as an endurance of a suffering never to occur again...and her liking for Mr Gibson grew up in proportion to her sense of the evils from which he was going to serve as a means of escape.'
Surely Mr Gibson has enough of whatever to keep or make both wife and daughter happy. What a challenge!
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"I find the narrator's comments prejudiced and gratuitous. And she seems genuinely surprised herself at what she is imagining. But it's all very clever and humorous."
What Ho, Jonathan - you have outdone yourself with that observation! :D Do you not see the narrator as the author, Eliz. Gaskell, the creator of this character we persist in calling Clare, despite her repeated preference for Hyacinth?
OK, will try to be fair to Hyacinth. Although she confides that she is " weary of girls as a class (?) - had hoped her only child would have been a boy ( a possible baronet someday) - she does say she will try to be as kind as she can to her new stepdaughter. Didn't we hear Molly say the same thing? Maybe things will work out for them after all by the end of the tale after all. I don't see Mrs. Gaskell writing a dark tale - don't see her inflicting pain and suffering on Molly - even if things do not go her way?
But that cheese will have to go!
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Mr. Coxe might be gone, but suddenly Molly is surrounded by "new friends." - Are they admirers as Mr. Coxe had been?
Does anyone have a footnote on the growing intimacy between Roger and Molly - and the Squire's fear that she will regard him a Pope? How did you understand that?
It's clear that Mrs. Gaskell is portraying Mr. Preston as an oily character, to be avoided. Nothing to fear here - it's obvious he's only interested in Cynthia. She seems to be an intimidating character. Hope she isn't unkind to her new stepsister.
I'm going to guess Mrs. Gaskell will align the two girls against Clare Hyacinth. Maybe Jonathan is right after all...
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JoanK, Amen. Truer words were never spoken. Men like Mr. Preston have been around since cavemen times and no doubt will continue into perpetuity.
Yesterday I was complaining about math problems and am still wondering how things are set up, moneywise. Clare gets 30 pounds a year from the estate of her late husband. So now Mr. Gibson has control over that and he has relinquished it to Cynthia. “ He himself had lived carefully, and had a few thousands well invested; besides which, his professional income was good, and increasing rather than diminishing every year.” For her trousseau, Lord Cumnor has given Clare 100 pounds and in addition is supplying the wedding breakfast. And Mr. Gibson has given the Brownings 100 pounds for sprucing up the Gibson residence. I wonder how Clare feels about that. All in all, the Gibson family is not rich, but comfortable.
Little has been said here about the Hamley boys and Molly, but Gaskell has this to say about Roger’s effect on Molly. And it appears, Miss Browning also had things to say, not fully appreciated by Molly.
Every young girl of seventeen or so, who is at all thoughtful, is very apt to make a Pope out of the first person who presents to her a new or larger system of duty than that by which she has been unconsciously guided hitherto. Such a Pope was Roger to Molly; she looked to his opinion, to his authority on almost every subject. p.176.
Did people from the town of Hollingford come to the wedding, I wonder. They would have had to travel 18 miles to get to Ashcombe, so probably not.
Bellamarie and JoanP, are you both saying that young Coxe was the catalyst for this marriage? The words of the older gentlemen had no effect?
Surely Mr Gibson has enough of whatever to keep or make both wife and daughter happy. What a challenge!
A good match, Jonathan?
Remember the plaid silk dress that Molly bought to take to her first visit to the Hamleys? Last night I started watching the tapes from the library, and that dress is just as awful as Mrs. Hamley said it was. (The film is okay, but leaves much to be desired, like Mrs. Gaskell's words.)
"Anything but that horrid plaid silk" was the thought in Mrs. Hamley's mind;
JoanP, we were posting at about the same time. I don't think Mr. Hamley was worried about Roger and Molly as much as he was Osborne and Molly. He was always stating that Roger knew it would be years before he could get married.
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Jonathon, I am a few chapters ahead of you, so let me assure you, Clare shows her true colors to everyone. The only tears I shed are for poor Molly, who has to spend so much time with this woman, who has two faces...one for private and one for public. She is like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I don't think for a minute Clare or Molly were going to be able to stand by their pledge to try to like each other. If they did, they both would have been receptive to spending the time together at Ashcombe, before the nuptials.
JoanP., I would like to think Cynthia and Molly hit it off, and align together against Clare, but if anything I am worried Cynthia may be a bit like her mother.....the apples don't fall too far from the tree. The only information we have so far about Cynthia is mostly from Preston, and we know he is truly smitten with her. And he is a weird bird for sure.
I will always call her Clare, because even though she wishes it to be different, she remains the same. So far, NO ONE has used Hyacinth, and I am up to chapter 16.
The next chapters do show how Clare and Lady Harriet are cruel and demeaning to others, and have no problem with it. Imagine that, considering Clare was Lady Harriet's governess and would have been a big influence in her life, and they have remained friends. She sure got prickly and jealous when she learns Lady Harriet gives Molly attention, while she is away on her honeymoon.
pedln., Yes, I do believe if it were not for Gibson's fear of Coxe pursuing Molly, he would never have thought about remarrying. The words of the older gentlemen, pointed him in the direction of Clare. And oh how the squire is regretting that! I agree, the Gibson family is not wealthy, and at the rate Clare is spending his money, he will be in the poor house before you know it.
Ciao for now~
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JoanP, you were quite right. Mr. Hamley had concerns with both the boys being home when Molly was there.
" It's as well the lads are at Cambridge; we might have been having a love-affair if they had been at home."
Mr. Hamley speaking when he first heard of Molly’s visit.
It would never do for him to fall in love with Gibson's daughter— I shouldn't allow it. So it's as well he's out of the way."
Mr. Hamley speaking of Osborne
He mustn't think of falling in love for these ten years."
Hamley, speaking of Roger
And then, when Hamley learned that Mrs. H had invited Molly to stay for TWO MONTHS --
All I know is, that it's a very dangerous thing to shut two young men of one and three and twenty up in a country-house like this with a girl of seventeen— choose what her gowns may be like, or her hair, or her eyes.
And he is ready to say something to Gibson, but Mrs. H begs him not to and he does as she wishes. She tries to convince her husband that Molly is NOT the sort of girl young men fall in love with.
Jonathan, Mr Hamley does seem to be a kind and practical man, doesn’t he, with hs sympathy for Molly’s distress about the marriage. Not that Lord Cumnor isn’t kind also, but really doesn’t know the impact for Molly.
Bellamarie, I tend to agree with you about Clare. She is a manipulator and what bothers me most is that she lays her blame or misfortune on others -- more of that coming up, I'm sure.
So the wedding is over, the bridge and groom are home. Is everybody happy? And let's not forget Lady Harriet, one of Molly's new friends.
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pedln, Yes indeed, the wedding is over and so is the honeymoon, now the dragon lady is home and is in full swing!!
This book just took a terrible turn from fun and funny, to just sad and sadistic. Chapters 16 & 17, Clare is more than I can stand. I grew up with a stepfather from the age of two yrs. old until they divorced, when I was eighteen, he was controlling, and ridiculed me, my brother and five sisters. I suppose a widow of seven small children NEEDED to remarry, to get help with raising her children back in 1954. He had to have everything HIS way, to the point my mother had little say in any matter. Our food served was to be to HIS liking, his timing, regardless if we liked it or not. Our favorite food such as spaghetti was NOT to be served to HIM. We were of Italian descent, and he said it was for dumb dagos. He was from the south and so it was fried chicken, mashed potatoes, gravy and pork chops. To this day I HATE pork chops! My mother grew withdrawn and silent, just to keep the peace and keep him happy, much like Gibson is doing. As a child I would cry myself to sleep, like Molly. My mother said I must respect him as my father. Hmmmm...like that was going to happen, not one of us children called him by any fatherly endearing name, he was always, "Bob" and I sense even though Molly calls Clare, "Mama," she is feeling Clare inside.
I think I am a bit ahead for this week's chapters, so I will reserve commenting any further until I see others have caught up.
Ciao for now~
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I may be a bit ahead, too, since my copy doesn't have chapter numbers. But your remark about not being allowed to eat spaghetti sounds just like Clare not allowing poor Doctor Gibson to eat cheese, presumably because it's "common".
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'from fun and funny to sad and sadistic'
It could turn into a sad tale. There must be many for whom stepmothers and stepfathers bring back painful memories. Did it take courage on Mrs Gaskell's part to take on such a subject? Doris Goodwin in her new book, The Bully Pulpit, quotes Alice Roosevelt Longworth on her memories of adjusting to life with her 'new mother': 'It was awfully bad psychologically.' p129
Take a break, Bellamarie. And come back to the fun. Of course the Squire doesn't want his sons to fall in love with Molly. He himself is charmed by the lively, honest teenager.
We need the Prestons of the world. If only to bring out the strange character of people like Harriet, the Earl's daughter. She doesn't want his admiration. She wants his respect! And she loves Mollys familiarity! She's human after all.
I'm not giving up on Clare. She seems to be walking into a difficult relationship with her eyes closed. I still like her. In fact I was going to suggest that we start referring to her as HY!!!
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Well, it's easier to type than Hyacinth!
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Hi, Hy! High five!
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Bellamarie, thank you for sharing and being so candid. As you know, you are not alone in your feelings about Clare/HY. She is a selfish woman and one wonders what brought her to that. Before her first marriage she had a good job as a governess with a family that liked and appreciated her. Her first marriage supposedly brought comfort, as did her child. (By the way, the tape said Mr. K died when Cynthia was four. I’ve never seen that in the book.) The Cumnors have gone out of their way to ease her life as a widow. So why does she focus everything on herself?
I’m thinking about the bedroom makeovers she plans for Cynthia and Molly, to which Molly objected. Can’t find the exact quote – “But it will reflect badly on me if Cynthia’s room is done over and yours is not.”
Good point about the cheese, JoanK. And we know there are other changes coming as well.
Jonathan, do you think that Lady Harriet’s dislike of Preston is only because he hasn’t shown her proper respect? Of course “proper respect” isn't really defined here.
When he had left the room, Lady Harriet said,—" I daresay it's my own lazy selfishness has kept you indoors all day against your will. But, at any rate, you are not to go out walking with that man. I've an instinctive aversion to him; not entirely instinctive either; it has some foundation in fact; and I desire you don't allow him ever to get intimate with you. He's a very clever land-agent, and does his duty by papa, and I don't choose to be taken up for libel; but remember what I say!"
What has happened in the past? One thinks that Preston surely wouldn’t be so stupid as to make a pass at one of Lord Cumnor’s family, but one wonders.
A lot seems to be happening all at once. Do you wonder at the time span of the story? Weeks? Months?
Molly becomes privy to Osborne’s secret, and what a burden it places on her.
And Cynthia arrives. Was this Cynthia’s decision or did her mother request it?
Do you think the girls will become close? Do you like Cynthia?
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Can you take a minute to post about the edition you are reading? We thought by including the chapter numbers AND the titles Mrs. Gaskell assigned to each chapter and put this information in the discussion schedule at the start of each page of posts, we'd eliminate confusion.
Now it is becoming clear that some of you have no numbers - or titles. What to do? Any suggestions? We will have to think of something to avoid spoilers in the upcoming chapters.
For now, know that we will be discussing Up to Chapter 17 through tomorrow. That means we will begin Chapter 18 on Monday- Mr. Osborne's Secret, in which Molly returns to the Hall - Roger and Osborne return too after receiving word of mother's worsening condition, Chapter 19, Cynthia's Arrival on the scene for the first time and then the next Chapter 20 - Mrs. Gibson's Visitors.
Those of you with no Chapter markers, can you think of ways that might help you keep track of where we are in the schedule?
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The questions help. If something hasn't been mentioned in a question, I assume we haven't gotten to it.
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Thanks, JoanK -
Don't you love the way the new stepmaman makes changes for Molly under the guise of being fair to her, not showing favoritism to her own daughter?Molly is dismayed to find her bedroom "done up" - her old familiar bedroom furnishings gone. I was relieved to see they were put into storage, not discarded. Hope that means she will have them back at some time in the future. (This happened to me too - changes that came with new "mamma." All childhood toys - dolls, dollhouse, puppets 1 given away. Dog had to go- allergies - etc.etc.)
Molly makes it clear that she is relieved to go back to the Hamleys. I'll bet she is! Problems there too with Osborne's failure. Is this why the Squire is angry and Mrs. Hamley is ill? Because Osborne failed to make the grade - and they had both believed he had a bright future?
I feel a bit sorry for him.
As the mother of four boys, I admit I squirmed to read Mrs. Hamley's words..."a mother does not know boys." Do you believe this? Did Mrs. Gaskell?
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Okay seems like we have all caught up with each other, since we are discussing Molly's room makeover, Osborne's secret, and Mrs. Hamley being ill.
As for Molly's room being entirely made over, I just shivered at Clare's insensitivity to Molly requesting, almost begging for her to please leave her room as it is, since it is her Mother's things that have brought her comfort. Although Clare uses the argument, that it would look like she favored her daughter, Clare is concerned, what others think of her, this more important than Molly's comfort.
pg. 234 "Are you going to new-furnish that room?" said Molly, in astonishment at the never ending changes.
"Yes; and yours too, darling; so don't be jealous."
"Oh please, mama, not mine," said Molly, taking in the idea for the first time.
"Yes dear! You shall have yours done as well. A little French bed, and a new paper, and a pretty carpet, and a dressed-up toilet- table and glass will make it look quite a different place."
"But I don't want it to look different. I like it as it is. Pray don't do anything to it."
"What nonsense, child! I never heard anything more ridiculous! Most girls would be glad to get rid of the furniture only fit for the lumber room."
"It was my own mamma's before she was married." said Molly, in a very low voice; bringing out this last plea unwillingly, but with certainty that it would not be resisted.
Mrs. Gibson paused for a moment before she replied: "It's very much to your credit that you should have such feelings, I'm sure. But don't you think sentiment may be carried too far? Why, we should have no new furniture at all, and should have to put up with worm-eaten horrors. Besides my dear, Hollingford will seem very dull to Cynthia, after pretty, gay France, and I want to make the first impression attractive. I've no notion I can settle her down near here; and I want her to come in a good temper; for, between ourselves, my dear, she is a little leetle wilful. You need not mention this to your papa."
"But can't you do Cynthia's room, and not mine? Please let mine alone."
"No, indeed! I couldn't agree to that. Only think what would be said of me by everybody; petting my own child and neglecting my husband's! I couldn't bear it."
"No one need know."
"In such a tittle-tattle place as Hollingford! Really, Molly, you either are very stupid or very obstinate, or else you don't care what hard things may be said about me; and for all for a selfish fancy of your own! No! I owe myself the justice of acting in this matter as I please. Everyone shall know I'm not a common step-mother. Every penny I spend on Cynthia I shall spend on you too; so it's no use talking any more about it."
Why did she have to remove EVERYTHING from the room? So, JoanP., you can relate to this. A girl is sentimental, she needs her "things" around her for comfort at any age. Clare seems to NOT have a sentimental bone in her body. Good question....what has happened in Clare's life to make her this way?
I was happy Molly got to go back to the Hamley's, only I sense her heart is going to be heavy having to keep Osborne's secret of squandering the family money, and I fear poor Mrs. Hamley may die. I hope I am wrong. What did Osborne spend so much money on? Was he gambling possibly? JoanP., I don't feel sorry for Osborne, because he was spending the family money, and being irresponsible causing his grades to fall, resulting in failing out of college. He sure does seem like the true Prodigal Son from scripture, only this father is not welcoming him back with open arms. NO fatted calf for him, if anything the squire decided to drink Osborne's favorite wine, he had been saving for just him. The squire is furious, he is going to have to sell off land to keep the house going. Molly sure is seeing her hero image of him, fading fast.
Lady Harriet, sure did warn Molly in no uncertain terms, to NEVER go walking with Mr. Preston. I did get the feeling he has been inappropriate with possibly Harriet as a child, or others. Yet, why when Molly told Preston that Cynthia would be living with them, he questioned it as though he was surprised, thinking she would be living in Ashcombe. Did Clare send Cynthia away, to get her away from Preston?
JoanP., I have two sons and we are so very close. I feel I know them inside and out. They are married and have children of their own, and still will come to me for advice. So I didn't understand when Clare said, .."a mother does not know boys."
I am not to the chapter where Cynthia has come home. I ended with Chapter 17 Trouble at Hamley Hall. (My book has chapters and titles.) But from Clare's own words, " I've no notion I can settle her down near here; and I want her to come in a good temper; for, between ourselves, my dear, she is a little leetle wilful. You need not mention this to your papa."
I fear Cynthia will not be an easy person to deal with. Like I said before, the apple does not fall far from the tree! I sense Cynthia may be spoiled, and not nearly as generous in wanting to be friends with Molly, as Molly is hoping to be with her.
Ciao for now~
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This is a book with so many chapters, and a story that has so many things happening in each chapter, I think we’re doing pretty well to staying on schedule and everyone is doing a fabulous job of assessing the characters and their relationships with one another.
I find Chapter XVII, Trouble at Hamley Hall, a difficult chapter, quite different from those previous. Our narrator has a lot more to say than do the characters themselves. And surprisingly, long speeches by Mrs Hamley to Molly, informing her of all the financial woes that Osborne has brought to Hamley Hall. I think that Molly’s responses are more to placate Mrs. Hamley, to soothe her, more than anything she really knows. Is she truly good, or merely naïve?
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Good morning all!
pedln, I so agree with you about chapter 17 Trouble at Hamley Hall. I read chapters 15, 16 and 17 all at one sitting, and by the time I finished I felt a bit overwhelmed. You have Molly and Clare in conflict over her room changes, then so much is revealed in chapter 17, I was ready to take a break to try to process it all. Lots of emotions in these chapters.
I feel Molly is both, good and naive. Yes, she is trying to soothe Mrs. Hamley, she is concerned, she will die. Molly also is struggling with her shattered impressions of Osborne being the perfect son, poet, hero. She realizes he has proved to be very selfish, reckless and uncaring of what his actions have done to his family. The squire is not only upset for the undue stress Osborne has financially put on the family, but that he has failed out of college, and was expected to take over Hamley Hall, and that he has caused undue stress on Mrs. Hamley, resulting in her failing health. Osbrne is in a boatload of trouble at this point.
Do you suppose Gaskell has a moral here, teaching the readers about placing too much importance, favoritism and responsibility on one son, over the other. I know the eldest son is to be the one who would take over at the helm, when the father no long can, but these parents seemed to expect and brag incessantly about Osborne, with little kindness to Roger. So who thinks Roger may be the one who swoops in to selvedge this family? Imagine that!
Ciao for now~
p.s. Anyone else having problems with the spell check? When I try to use it nothing happens, so forgive any misspelled words.
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I think we need to get into the mindset of the period.
I don't think Mrs. Gaskell is expressing a moral here - The inequity of the first-born inheriting the estate is not a matter of favoritism, but rather a well-established and accepted custom in England. Primogeniture is the right, by law or custom, of the firstborn son to inherit the family estate. Recently this has been changed to "firstborn child," so firstborn daughters can also inherit the estate now. William will be the future king of England- simply because he was born before Harry. And the second, third, fourth sons? They either went into the clergy or learned some sort of trade - such as? I'm wondering what Roger will do with his education, aren't you?
Here's an interesting article about the recent change in Primogeniture...the viewpoint of the owner of Downton Abbey - who expresses concern that this change in Primogeniture will lead to the eradication of the laws altogether -
"The 8th Earl of Carnarvon owns Highclere Castle - the setting for Downton
Fears changes in the law of royal succession, allowing first-born daughters to accede to the throne, could put estates across the country in jeopardy
Move could be a step towards French Napoleonic Code - which allows property to be split equally among offspring, he says
Pressure group says changes to current 'unfair' system are necessary for certain estates to stay within the family."
Changing inheritance laws (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426567/Inheritance-laws-change-force-sell-ALL-Britains-historic-houses.html)
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Mr. Hamley feels doctors are quacks. He is probably expressing what many feel at this time...although he seems to repect Dr. Gibson. Does he believe him when he says Mrs. H is near death? Dr. Gibson is so convinced he sends for Osborne and Roger to be with her.
Where is Osborne? Is he still a student in Cambridge - or has he been plucked? Is Mr. Hamley still sending him his Cambridege allowance? Where is Osborne spending it? Gambling? Mr. Hamley is struggling to pay his bills - has to sell timber from the land to pay Osborne's bills. No wonder he's so angry at the situation.
A good question - is Molly just saying these things to ease Mrs. Hamley's mind about her Osborne, or does she really believe that there is an explanation somewhere? Mrs. H knows about the failure at Cambridge...does she know of Osborne's debts?
So, the doctor has sent for both sons, Osborne has been banned from the house until he pays his debts (?)... How will Mr. Hamley react when they show up at his door? My bet - he'll accept Osborne for his mother's sake. Hopefully we will learn more in the coming chapters.
Bella - I used spell check just now - the only thing that showed up was Hamley as being mispelled. Maybe nothing happened when you tried it because you hadn't misspelled anything?
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Roger knows where Osborne is, but he's not talking. I think what's really sad, as Bellamarie has mentioned, is that the Squire holds Osborne responsible for Mrs Hamley's failing health.
And here's Clare, expecting Molly to go to a dance with her. In fact, she's called Molly home from the Hamleys just for this purpose. And of course Molly protests and for once her father intervenes in her favor, but letting it be known that he doesnt' want to get involved in these mother/daughter tete-a-tetes.
That is an interesting article, JoanP, but I must admit I’ve never understood the rules of primogenture, and still don’t. Especially in the case of something like Downton Abbey where the next heir is from a never-met distant branch of the family. Does this apply to all Britons or only those families with historic homes? If someone buys a house and doesn’t sell it before he dies, must it go to his oldest son? Can a husband and wife own property together?
My second question would be What would be the loss or disadvantage if the laws were changed and some of the estates sold or broken up?
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JoanP.,
" I don't think Mrs. Gaskell is expressing a moral here - The inequity of the first-born inheriting the estate is not a matter of favoritism, but rather a well-established and accepted custom in England."
I think you may have misunderstood my reason for feeling there may be a moral here, about showing favoritism. I was not referring to Osborne inheriting the estate. I was aware of, "Primogeniture is the right, by law or custom, of the firstborn son to inherit the family estate."
I was referring to ALL the compliments, bragging and praise Mrs. Hamley and the squire had for Osborne in comparison to Roger. Because of their favoritism shown IN WORDS, and description, before they knew of Osborne failing out of college, and squandering the family money, I personally felt he was the favored son. They did not have the same praise or feelings about Roger. Molly got the idea Osborn was the perfect son/hero, from the picture and words of Mrs. Hamley, and the squire, without ever meeting Osborne. If anything, I thought Molly actually spoke up in Roger's defense, when she told Mrs. Hamley about Roger helping her with his advice, and Mrs. Hamley made a statement about Osborne is the more gentle one, as if Roger is not capable of helping Molly, and Molly spoke up and said, "I like roughness."
For ME, the moral is....don't favor one son above the other. Keep them equal in your thoughts, praise and feelings. (Regardless which position the elder will assume) I have two sons who are 2 yrs. apart in age, so when the younger son had the same 6th grade teacher as his brother had 2 yrs prior, that teacher compared them and favored my oldest son, she told me Mike was more apt to be a success, where Jeremy would have problems in jobs because he was a bit rough. I told her, I beg to differ with her, and that my two sons are very different in personalities, style and speech, but they will both be successful in life, because they know their parents love them, encourage them and support them equally. I can say with pride today....both sons ARE a success, and best friends to each other. And when I saw this teacher years later she asked about my two sons and smiled, when I said how successful BOTH boys are.
I have followed Prince William & Harry since their births, and the reason why those two men are best friends today, is because their parents did not show favoritism, even though William will assume the throne and be King, before Harry. So, I personally, do see Gaskell giving her readers a moral to learn here.
JoanP., Mr. Hamley feels doctors are quacks. He is probably expressing what many feel at this time...although he seems to repect Dr. Gibson
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I didn't feel Mr. Hamley really thought, all doctors are quacks. I felt he was upset hearing what Gibson was telling him, about Mrs. Hamley's failing health, and he did not want to accept it, so he was striking out at doctors in general. He knew in his heart, what Gibson was saying was true, and when Gibson suggested getting the second opinion, I felt Mr. Hamley KNEW, the second opinion would be the same, so he says, "all doctors are quacks." He does respect Gibson, and he knows inside he is going to lose Mrs. Hamley, from what Gibson is saying, and how Mrs. Hamley's health has failed, since the news of Osborne's failing out of college, and spending the family money. Hence, she can not deal with the let down of her favorite son. Her world has come crashing down, as has the squire's. They had built Osborne up to be the perfect son, the intellect, the success, the hero! (And yes, the one to inherit Hamley Hall) Now their reality is, he is not perfect, like Roger, Osborne has flaws, and they have to be thinking Osborne can't be trusted to make good financial decisions in the position in taking over Hamley Hall, considering his squandering the family money. Something they could never see before this.
I am off to read this week's chapters. I pray Mrs. Hamley will make a recovery, but it is not looking good at this point.
Ciao for now~
p.s. Not sure why, but I tried spell check again and it still is not working for me. It shows a word highlighted, and I click "ignore" it will not respond. It's been like this for me for a couple of days now.
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A good question - is Molly just saying these things to ease Mrs. Hamley's mind about her Osborne, or does she really believe that there is an explanation somewhere? Mrs. H knows about the failure at Cambridge...does she know of Osborne's debts?
Some of you have mentioned that Jane Austen keeps running through your minds as you read parts of this book. From time to time I think that Molly is a cross between Jane and Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice. The eldest sister, Jane, can't see the bad in anyone. She always sees only the good. Molly has idealized/idolized Osborne (because of how his mother has always characterized him). In Chapter 17, she takes his side when Mrs. Hamley is trying to explain why Mr. Hamley is so upset, mostly with the unexplained debts. Molly tells Mrs. H that it must be that Osborne was swindled out of the money. When Mrs. H says that would make him weak rather than wicked, Molly (not very rational when it comes to her view of the as-yet-unmet Osborne) says she doesn't think him weak because of how clever he really is. "Besides, I would rather he was weak than wicked."
I think Molly sometimes shows her outspoken "Elizabeth" side as when she spoke up to Harriet for the Browning sisters.
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Bellamarie, when you click IGNORE, spellcheck should highlight the next questionable word, if there are any. When all words are checked, you should get a message that says "SPELL CHECK COMPLETE." Is it just "stalling" for you after you click IGNORE?
Did it work at an earlier date? If so, are you using a different browser now?
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JoanP., It has always worked okay for me until the last few days. Yes, it is stalling and will not respond/ proceed. It shows me the first questionable word highlighted, and when I click an option such as, ignore, ignore all, change, etc., and it will not go any further. I am using the same browser as always. Not sure why it's not working properly for me. I just tried it again, and the same thing...nothing happens.
Thank you for inquiring.
marcie, I agree, I get the feel of Jane Austen's Jane/Elizabeth personalities in Molly. She has Eliz's outspokenness when necessary, yet Jane's very sweet, and milder side also. I sense we have only scratched the surface of Molly, or we have yet to see the mature Molly, which may be more in control of her own life, and not allow her father, Clare or anyone else, disregard her feelings in the near future.
On to chapter 18!
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie, I'm sorry but I couldn't find any information to help about the spell check. I'll keep looking. Good thing you're a good speller!
Yes, we're on to Chapter 18 today. Everyone, what impressions do you get of Osborne in this chapter?
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Oh wow! Chapter XVIII is an eyeopener! Clears up some things but leaves another big question. Starting to understand why Osborne failed his exams. He must have got in with the wrong crowd, though not sure how this happened - away in the ivory, guess I mean, "ivied" tower of Cambridge. Didn't think this sort of thing went on there. Now there are money-lenders after him to pay debts. No wonder the Squire is angry - he's learned of the "post-obits" ... the money that would be taken from the estate at his death. Who wouldn't be upset at this?
I'm thinking that the family may have been right in believing in Osborne's intelligence and potential... but he has squandered it all - for what?
Roger assures Molly that there was "no wrong-doing" on Osborne's part. Have been judged Osborne too harshly? My guess was gambling, but now not so sure. Do you believe he was honest with Roger about the reason he's spending so much money? I don't know what to think at this point.
Poor Molly - she learns the truth inadvertantly - Osborne is unhappy that she knows and Roger is sworn to secrecy and is not at liberty to talk to her about it. . Molly has to keep this secret from everyone she knows and loves - especially Osborne's broken-hearted mother.
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I've been noticing several typos in the text - wondered if this is just the edition I'm reading. In this chapter, Chapter XVIII, on the day Osborne came home:
"he came straight into the drawing room, where Molly was seated on the rug, reading by firelight, as she did not like to ring for candies merely for her own use."
Strange thing is that when I went to check on the edition I'm reading, there is NO indication as to the publisher. In the very back of the book, I see only this -
Made in the USA
Lexington, KY
27 December, 2013
Check the date - isn't that odd. This was a Christmas gift - it's as if it was printed when ordered. None of this is important though - I'm just wondered if it was printed straight from Mrs. Gaskell's manuscript, or this particular publisher - whoever that is. :D
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
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You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 2 Jan. 13 - Jan.22
Jan. 20- 22}
Chapter 18 Mr. Osborne's Secret
Chapter 19 Cynthia's Arrival
Chapter 20 Mrs Gibson's Visitors
Part 3 Jan.23 - Feb.1
Jan.23 - Jan.29}
Chapter 21. The Half-Sisters
Chapter 22. The Old Squire's Troubles
Chapter 23. Osborne Hamley Reviews His Position
Chapter 24. Mrs Gibson's Little Dinner
Chapter 25. Hollingford In A Bustle
Chapter 26. A Charity Ball
Chapter 27. Father And Sons
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Some Things to Think About
Chapters XXI-XXVII ~ January 23-Jan. 29(Father's agreement that Roger will represent the Hamleys)
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER XXI The Half Sisters
Which sister does Osborne come to visit? Could Cynthia and Roger possibly become interested in one another? How would this affect Molly? Does she already notice an attraction between the two?
CHAPTER XXII. The Old Squire's Troubles
Do you see a way out of the squire's troubles? He's sold his timber, taken loans on his land. What is Osborne's reaction when he learns there is no more money for his trips? Would Roger have been able to help if he was home?
CHAPTER XXIII. Osborne Hamley Reviews His Position
Why can't Osborne just tell his father about his wife and bring her home to the Hall?
Were you surprised at any of the options he considered to make a living? How did Roger advise him?
CHAPTER XXIV Mrs. Gibson's Little Dinner
What more does Mrs. Gaskell reveal about Cynthia in this chapter? Do you feel you know her any better? Did she really understand Roger's scientific explanation? Is her memory for poetry as prodigious as her mother brags? Does she really think of herself as a dunce? Why does Mrs. Gibson say Molly is worth 20 of Cynthia?
CHAPTER XXV Hollingford in a Bustle
Did you enjoy Mrs. Gaskell's account of Clare's "luncheon" at the Tower before the ball and her later description when she returned home?
Were you puzzled at Cynthia's fussing over Molly to make her attractive at the ball? Did she have an ulterior motive? When Molly wished she was pretty like Cynthia, were you surprised at Cynthia's response?
CHAPTER XXVI A Charity Ball
What did you learn from the gossipy old maids who attended the ball, regarding Mr. Preston, Clare and Cynthia? Do you find him dangerous?
"One thing Mrs. Gibson hates - trying to pretend intimacy with great people." Did this make you smile?
What sort of election is coming in June? How will it affect Lord Hollingsworth?
"It was not an unsatisfactory ball upon the whole, to Mrs. Gibson." Oh? How many occasions did you count the lady's dissatisfaction at this ball?
CHAPTER XXVII Father and Sons
Why do you think the Squire believes Lord Hollingsford invitation to Roger is some sort of whig trick? Why is he furious with Roger? Were you surprised Roger decided not to accept the invitation?
Given his deep-rooted prejudices, will the Squire ever accept Osborne's French bride, whom Osborne regards as the future mistress of Hamley Hall? Do you understand where Osborne is spending his money now?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com ), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
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I am a bit confused as to what chapters to read for the week. It says:
Jan. 20- 22}
Chapter 18 Mr. Osborne's Secret
Chapter 19 Cynthia's Arrival
Chapter 20 Mrs Gibson's Visitors
So are we only reading these three chapters and discussing them? If so I will take on these questions for chapter 18:
CHAPTER XVIII. Mr. Osborne's Secret
What are your impressions of Osborne in this chapter?
I am actually surprised of my impression of Osborne now that he has arrived home, I'm finding myself feeling a bit sorry for him. He has gotten himself into a financial jam, but he is worried sick for his mother, and his father is giving him the cold shoulder, so he has only Molly and Roger to talk to. Molly is very generous in not judging him, and listening to him. It is a bit sad, Osborne has come home too late to have a visit with his mother. They can't allow him to see her for fear it would upset her even more, resulting in a shorter time to live, yet even if he went into the room, with her under the sedation of the opiates, chances are she wouldn't be able to recognize him at all. He was so very close to his mother, and he feels if she had been healthy, she could have helped him right things with his father. Now, his father will hold him largely responsible for her death. My impression after reading this chapter, is that he is a smart, caring, well mannered guy. I can see why both his parents put so much praise on him. They were justified in bragging, and expecting he would fill the position, heir to Hamley Hall. But even knowing his secret, we still have a lot of unanswered questions, and his actions have caused undue stress on his family's health and finances. I am hoping there is a good enough explanation for these actions.
Did you guess Osborne's secret? We are not given any details. What are your thoughts about the situation?
I did NOT guess Osborne's secret at all....I was actually shocked, when I read it. Without given any details, it's a bit difficult to discuss it. So, all I can say is, I am like Molly, trying to figure out who the wife could be, from possible clues along the way leading up to his arrival. I actual in the back of my mind was thinking his wife could have been Cynthia, before she arrived. Osborne was suppose to be at Cambridge and here we learn he has been traveling and no one can find him.
What is the reaction of each of the Hamleys?
?? Unless I missed something, none of the Hamleys know he is married except Roger. He of course has kept it a secret, and there is no indication as to how Roger really feels about this. He has been loyal to his brother, to a fault!
What are Molly's feelings in leaving Hamley Hall?
In this particular chapter Molly does not want to leave Hamley Hall for fear Mrs. Hamley will wake up and ask for her, and if she is not there, she fears Mrs. Hamley will think of her as uncaring. Molly wants to stay until Friday, hoping she will have one last visit with Mrs. Hamley before she has to leave or before Mrs. Hamley passes on. It's so sad to have a loved one dying, and they do not recognize you any longer, or even are awake long enough to know you are there. How will this effect Osborne, never being able to make things right with his mother, or being able for her to see he came home.
Ciao for now~
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Joan, I have the same typo in my text and a couple more like that which I've noticed.
Bellamarie, I too feel sorry for Osborne. I'm thinking that the expenses are for living arrangements for his wife.. not gambling or opiates or excessive self-indulgence. She must not have any money and might be an "unsuitable" match for other reasons -- why he has not being able to tell anyone but Roger (and now, molly).
What do you all think?
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Marcie, Yes, I am sensing she is possibly beneath the family status. I no longer feel it was on gambling or anything of excessive irresponsible behavior. Possibly, an unplanned pregnancy??!
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He must have got in with the wrong crowd, though not sure how this happened - away in the ivory, guess I mean, "ivied" tower of Cambridge. Didn't think this sort of thing went on there.
I keep looking, but I don’t see evidence of this, have not seen anything about friends or pseudo-friends, wrong crowd, who may have caused Osborne to so into debt. The only thing we know for sure now is that he is married – and the only other person who knows this is Roger – until now. I agree with Marcie, that his excessive spending is probably related to his wife and her needs.
Gaskell does a good job of keeping secrets. From all of the background given, I would never have suspected a wife to be the reason for all of Osborne's activities.
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Yes, Pedln, Gaskell does a good job moving the plot along in surprising ways. We learn of Osborne's secret when Molly learns it, by accident and then no more is said about it due to a promise to Osborne. What a good way to keep the suspense.
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Bellamarie: You have done a good job of going over the questions for this chapter. I am going to backtrack in my reading and reread some of the chapters that I have read. The book is so interesting it yields to more than one reading.
The somber atmosphere of this chapter created by the illness of Mrs. Hamley and Osborne's misdeeds that so alienate him from the family make this a sad part of the novel. We share Molly's grief at having to leave her friend for the last time and her discomfort at leaving a place where she has been welcomed and of some help to a family and her discomfort with her own home. But notice how skillfully Mrs. Gaskell changes from this dark scene to the excitement and pleasure (at least from Molly and her father) at Cynthia's arrival; her youthful poise and striking beauty bring fresh new concerns to the story and dispel the sadness of the previous chapter.
Question: Do they have a funeral for Mrs. Hamley? Did I miss this event? (Blame it on the Kindle if I did!) I can't recall a funeral being mentioned, when the family and Molly and her father could say their final goodbye's to Mrs. Hamley and have some closure. I have no idea what funeral customs were in this period; if they were different from what we do today I am not aware of it.
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Lucy, there is a funeral for Mrs. Hamley -- a brief reference made to that fact towards the end of Chpt. XIX, about Cynthia's arrival. As you say, Mrs. Gaskell moving from the sad to the happy, the sad.
Papa says the funeral is to be on Tuesday, and that, after that, Roger Hamley is to go back to Cambridge. It will seem as if nothing had happened!
Gaskell, Elizabeth Cleghorn (2012-05-17). Wives and Daughters (p. 268). . Kindle Edition.
Nothing is said about whether Molly and her father attended the funeral.
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It seems that Roger is Osborne's only confidant. Previously, it would have been his mother. I guess that he wasn't able to tell her about his marriage... before it happened... since she was in such poor health. Afterward, as you've said, he wasn't permitted in the room with her. It seems that missed opportunities have made the situation at the Hamley's worse.
Good point, Lucy, about how Gaskell controls the mood of the book. Molly is so excited to be meeting her new "sister."
How would you describe Cynthia? What are some of the sentences said by herself or others about her that you found interesting or enlightening?
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Pedln, I too thought it was strange - very strange that Molly was not invited to Mrs. Hamley's funeral - over again we are told that Molly was like a daughter to her. I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't been invited and the new mamma just didn't pass along the message. Am waiting for Mrs. Gaskell to make that known.
I'm at a loss about this wife. Where did she come from? Where - and when did Osborne meet her? Someone wondered if she is pregnant. I'd be surprised if Osborne gave up his place in life for love. Mrs. Gaskell keeps us buying the issues of Dickens' magazine, doesn't she?
Marcie, I don't know why it makes me happy to learn that you are noting the same typos in the manuscript. Maybe because it makes me think that this is just as Mrs. Gaskell submitted the installments to Dickens when they needed to be quickly included in upcoming editions. After they were published in his magazine, I imagine that no one dared make any changes...even today. What edition are you reading? I wonder if Gutenburg edited them? Or Kindle? I'm going to go check Gutenburg...
I'm really curious about Mr. Preston and what went on with Cynthia before she went away to school, aren't you? How old is she now? Whatever happened, she must have been 15 or 16 when last they met. And why is Clare so disturbed whenever he shows up. I'll put money that the two of them had some sort of relationship those years ago. But one thing is clear, he's after Cynthia, who seems determined not to have anything to do with him.
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I had Roger's secret about having a wife,being that He andCynthia might have met in France and fell in love and married! Well my story would surely have upset Clare's applecart! And it would have changed the atmosphere at the Gibson house! What I can't deduce is Osborne's change of personality and his father's not seeing it. And ths Squire and Mrs Hamlin unawareness of his weaker character. Roger is my favorite. He is so caring, bringing flowers every day! Giving Molly carte Blanche with his library and speaking to her about what goes on at Cambtidge, as if she was a member of his family. Well, she seems a sister to the Hamlans, as the father and the sons mention to her. Asking about their mother's
calling her, Fanny, who is their dead sister.
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Good to see you here!, Annie!
Oh my...Roger and Cynthia married? You have some imagination, Annie! I'll bet you meant Osborne and Cynthia. That occurred to me too...until she arrives home and meets Osborne for the first time. She'd have been some actress to pull that off!
I looked up Chapter XVIII and see that their editors cleaned up the text... I wish they hadn't - I was feeling closer to Elizabeth Gaskell when reading what I thought were her own typos.
"The evening of the day on which she had had the above conversation with Roger, Osborne arrived. He came straight into the drawing-room, where Molly was seated on the rug, reading by firelight, as she did not like to ring for candles (not candies) merely for her own use. "
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JoanP., I am reading my book from my NookColor ereader, and it does have typos throughout also. I wondered if it was Gaskell, or the printer.
Annie, you and I were thinking alike, I too was thinking Cynthia and Osborne could have met in London, and wed. But, since she returned home and NO slightest clue, I gave up on it.
Lucy, "But notice how skillfully Mrs. Gaskell changes from this dark scene to the excitement and pleasure (at least from Molly and her father) at Cynthia's arrival; her youthful poise and striking beauty bring fresh new concerns to the story and dispel the sadness of the previous chapter."
You said this perfectly! I have to admit I was filled with sorrow with the illness, and death of Mrs. Hamley, and thinking how awful it would be for Molly to have to return to her evil step-mother, but in comes Cynthia!! I had thought Cynthia, would not be as excited and receiving Molly as Molly was to have her, as a sister, but I am so happy to see the both of them become very good friends/sisters. That did, break my somber mood, quickly.
Gaskell has just done a superb job in writing this book. I told my hubby, it could end up being one of my very best books I have ever read! She has ALL the elements in it that I look for in a good book, love story, evil, goodness, kindness, mystery, family, friendships, special occasions, death, new beginnings, etc., etc. She moves the story along so you are not bored, and are wanting to speed right through the pages to learn more. She keeps you guessing, intrigued, and plays havoc with all your emotions.
I'm not so sure Molly and Mr. Gibson were not invited to the funeral, as Gaskell did with the wedding, it was glossed over so quickly we didn't really know who attended or who didn't. She did not want to emphasize on either event in length, just have it occur and off we go......Although Osborne and Roger do come after the funeral to give Molly a token and to give high regard to Mr. Gibson for his excellent care of their mother. So it could be they did not attend.
Preston is a very strange bird, I can't wait to see what he is all about and why, Lady Harriet, Clare and now Cynthia are very upset when he is mentioned or arrives on the scene. Molly did not get a good vibe off of him either.
Annie, Roger is surely proving to be a very favorite character for me as well. Mrs. Hamley was my favorite as I had stated earlier. She was such a sweet, kind, caring and motherly woman for Molly, and her boys adored her, as did the squire. I'm still a little sad, she is gone.
marcie, How would you describe Cynthia? What are some of the sentences said by herself or others about her that you found interesting or enlightening?
Cynthia is a little perplexing to me. While she is a very good friend/sister to Molly, so far, she states "she is not a good person like Molly." Cynthia, shares with Molly about her resentment for her mother not being more a part of her life. She tells Molly she wishes she could genuinely "love" someone like Molly does, although she does say she thinks she "loves" Molly. So I am seeing this is the first time Cynthia has actually felt what it is like to love another human being, other than her father who she only had but 4 yrs of her life with to love. It was interesting how Cynthia tells Molly how when her father died, her mother and others disregarded his death as having any effect on her since she was so young. Cynthia says indeed it did. I suspected Clare and Cynthia were alike in some ways, and I fear it's in the way they are unable to "love." But where I find Clare cold and insensitive, I see Cynthia more warm and caring. Let's see if this last. There is so much more we don't know, and so much more to learn.
Ciao for now~
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Pedln: Thanks for the reference to the funeral. I think it odd that so little is made of the wedding or the funeral. As readers we are thinking that so much will be revealed at these events that we are looking forward to them, and alas they are given very little attention, as though Mrs. Gaskell wants to surprise the reader and keep attention on the many more seemingly ordinary events. The subtitle calls it "an everyday story," which surely would have appealed to people reading it as a serial.
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'...as though Mrs Gaskell wants to surprise the reader...' I think, Lucy, that you have pointed out the most remarkable feature of her style. One thing after another. Nothing unusual happened at the funeral so why not get it out of the way. It's the life of the survivors, afterwards, that are important to the plot.
'She has ALL the elements in it that I look for in a good book, love story, evil, goodness...' Wonderful, Bellamarie. It just got too much for me. I wanted to know more, so I read on, and on, and on. It justs keeps getting better and better. What a lively plot. And the characters, well, Mrs Gaskell is just the grandest puppeteer. Her characters do the most remarkable steps for her. I'm up to Chapter 31.
Typos are the least of the curious writing. I'm reading the Oxford Press World Classics edition and I'm told in the introduction about the 'slips and inconsistencies'. Mrs Gaskell must have been under pressure and dealing with the riches in her mind, how could she help but commit a few...whatevers. As Bellamarie points out, Cynthia was four when her father died, but weren't we told early on that Clare was still in mourning when the story began?
Never, ever, will I see Clare as the evil step-mother. Despite the author's attempts to portray her as such. These characters are all puppets for the cause. Fascinating.
JoanP, my book tells me that the book was published in The Cornhill, so Dickens was no longer around to tell her how to write her story.
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That's very interesting, Jonathan - will have to look into the change of publishers. What happened to Dickens, I wonder. CornHill was a rival to Dickens' Household Words.
"Mrs Gaskell's first novel, Mary Barton, was published anonymously in 1848. The best-known of her remaining novels are Cranford (1853), North and South (1854), and Wives and Daughters (1865). She became popular for her writing, especially her ghost stories, aided by Charles Dickens, who published her work in his magazine Household Words."
There IS a story here...something had occurred during Dickens' publication of Mrs. Gaskell's North and South right before Wives and Daughters, her last book - there was an objection to one of her characters, as I understand it. Will look again in the morning for the article that slipped away from me. It was interesting
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Jonathon, " It just got too much for me. I wanted to know more, so I read on, and on, and on. It justs keeps getting better and better. What a lively plot. And the characters, well, Mrs Gaskell is just the grandest puppeteer. Her characters do the most remarkable steps for her. I'm up to Chapter 31."
I suspected readers have gone on ahead by either their posts, or them not posting, for fear of giving spoilers. If I read ahead, I would have to discuss it, or slip spoilers out of excitement. I am so happy to know it gets better and better, I didn't doubt for one minute it would be less exciting, as it already has been for me.
Jonathon, "Never, ever, will I see Clare as the evil step-mother. Despite the author's attempts to portray her as such. These characters are all puppets for the cause. Fascinating."
Good for you! Stick by your own convictions, regardless of the author or what we post. ;)
I'm not sure if I recall Clare in mourning in the beginning of the book, I think I remember her making a snide statement about her being free. Don't hold me to this, until I have the time to find it in the book. Cynthia, sure did not have any nice things to say about her mother, to help us like Clare, any more than Gaskell has so far. But there is always hope & time for redemption. :o
Am I the only one who has not read ahead? Tomorrow we are to discuss chapter 20 Mrs. Gibson's Visitors, I will be patient and wait before going ahead. It's really tempting now though.....
Ciao for now~
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Wow, what a lot of good information and interesting observations.
I'm reading a book published by Echo Library, which "uses advanced digital print-on-demand technology to build
and preserve an exciting world class collection of rare and out-of-print books, making them readily available for everyone to enjoy.
Situated just yards from Teddington Lock on the River Thames, Echo Library was founded in 2005 by Tom Cherrington, a specialist dealer
in rare and antiquarian books." I am not sure where they got the digital original.
Good point, Jonathan, about Clare being in mourning. When we meet Molly and she attends the affair at the Towers, how old did we say Molly was? Around 12? Cynthia is her age, correct?
After Molly wakes up from her nap on Clare's bed at the Towers, they have the following conversation which indicates that Clare's husband died 7 months ago, so Cynthia must have been about 11 or 12 when her father died:
Are you married, ma'am; I thought she called you Clare?"
In high good-humour Mrs. Kirkpatrick made reply:—"I don't look as if I was married, do I? Every one is surprised. And yet I have been a widow for seven months now: and not a grey hair on my head, though Lady Cuxhaven, who is younger than I, has ever so many."
"Why do they call you 'Clare?'" continued Molly, finding her so affable and communicative.
"Because I lived with them when I was Miss Clare. It is a pretty name, isn't it? I married a Mr. Kirkpatrick; he was only a curate, poor fellow; but he was of a very good family, and if three of his relations had died without children I should have been a baronet's wife. But Providence did not see fit to permit it; and we must always resign ourselves to what is decreed. Two of his cousins married, and had large families; and poor dear Kirkpatrick died, leaving me a widow."
"You have a little girl?" asked Molly.
"Yes: darling Cynthia! I wish you could see her; she is my only comfort now. If I have time I will show you her picture when we come up to bed; but I must go now.
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Bellamarie you say: "She [Cynthia] tells Molly she wishes she could genuinely "love" someone like Molly does, although she does say she thinks she "loves" Molly. So I am seeing this is the first time Cynthia has actually felt what it is like to love another human being, other than her father who she only had but 4 yrs of her life with to love. It was interesting how Cynthia tells Molly how when her father died, her mother and others disregarded his death as having any effect on her since she was so young. Cynthia says indeed it did. I suspected Clare and Cynthia were alike in some ways, and I fear it's in the way they are unable to "love." But where I find Clare cold and insensitive, I see Cynthia more warm and caring. Let's see if this lasts.
I remember reading that also. It does seem that Cynthia and Molly care about each other and always speak well of the other to everyone else. I do see that Cynthia sticks up for Molly and enjoys her company and does care for her but I don't see her as "warm," especially not to people other than Molly. Cynthia seems to be somewhat on "automatic." We're told that, while she is aware of her effect on people, she doesn't usually calculate her responses to them. She just has a certain look and way about her that is attractive but she doesn't seem to have a range of emotions.
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marcie,
"In high good-humour Mrs. Kirkpatrick made reply:—"I don't look as if I was married, do I? Every one is surprised. And yet I have been a widow for seven months now: and not a grey hair on my head, though Lady Cuxhaven, who is younger than I, has ever so many."
Jonathon and marcie, This is very confusing to me, and yes, now I remember reading this... "it's been seven months," yet if you read Cynthia's account, Cynthia was only four years old, when her father died. So, what is going on here? Molly is eleven, which means Cynthia is eleven at the time Molly visited the Towers. So, something is off. Is this an error, or is this Clare not telling Molly the truth? And why didn't Molly put this together, as Cynthia tells her now, that she was four when her father died? ??? ??? ???
marcie, Good point, Cynthia could be on auto pilot with her feelings. I found her warm to Molly, is what I meant. But Cynthia is not warm at all to her mother or Preston. I think this helps us understand Cynthia:
pg. 271 "I wish I could love people as you do, Molly!."
"Don't you?" said the other in surprise.
"No. A good number of people love me, I believe, or at least they think they do; but I never seem to care much for any one. I do believe I love you, little Molly, whom I have only known for ten days, better than any one,"
"Not than your mother?" said Molly, in grave astonishment.
"Yes, than my mother!" replied Cynthia, half-smiling. "It's very shocking, I dare say; but it is so. Now, don't go and condemn me. I don't think love for one's mother quite comes by nature; and remember how much I have been separated from mine! I loved my father, if you will," she continued, with the force of truth in her tone, and then she stopped; but he died when I was quite a little thing, and no one believes that I remember him. I heard mamma say to a caller, not a fortnight after his funeral, "Oh, no, Cynthia is too young; she has quite forgotten him"__and I bit my lips, to keep from crying out, "Papa! papa! have I?" But it's no use. Well, then mamma had to go out as a governess; she couldn't help it, poor thing! but she didn't much care for parting with me. I was a trouble, I dare say. So I was sent to school at four years old; first one school, and then another; and in the holidays, mamma went to stay at grand houses, and I was generally left with the schoolmistresses. Once I went to the Towers; and mamma lectured me continually, and yet I was very naughty, I believe. And so I never went again; and I was very glad of it, for it was a horrid place."
"That is was," said Molly, who remembered her own day of tribulation there.
pg. 272 "I wish I was good!"
"So do I," said Molly, simply. She was thinking again of Mrs. Hamley,__
Only the actions of the just
Smell sweet and blossom in the dust,
and "goodness" just then seeemed to her to be the only endearing thing in the world.
"Nonsense, Molly! You are good. At least, if you're not good, what am I? There's a rule-of-three sum for you to do! But it's no use talking. I am not good, and I never shall be a heroine still, but I shall never be a good woman, I know."
"Do you think it's easier to be a heroine?"
"Yes, as far as one knows of heroines from history. I'm capable of a great jerk, an effort, and then a relaxation__but steady, everyday goodness is beyond me. I must be a moral kangaroo!"
pg. 275, "I am not good, and I told you so. Somehow, I cannot forgive her for her neglect of me as a child, when I would have clung to her. Besides, I hardly ever heard from her when I was at school. And I know she put a stop to my coming over to the wedding. I saw the letter she wrote to Madame Lefebre. A child should be brought up with its parents, it iit is to think them infallible when it grows up."
"But though it may know that there must be faults," replied Molly, "it ought to cover them over and try to forget their existence."
"It ought. But don't you see I have grown up outside the pale of duty and "oughts." Love me as I am, sweet one, for I shall never be better."
After reading this I ask myself, How does a four year old, be so much trouble, she is sent away and neglected, all her years at one school, after another? I sense there is much more to be revealed here......
Ciao for now~
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We're on to Chapter XX today, although we can continue to talk about any past chapters. Some of you have already alluded to Mr. Preston. What do you make of the visit of Mr. Preston and the reactions of Clare and Cynthia? Something definitely has gone on in the past between the three of them. And what do you think Cynthia thinks of Osborne, now that she has met him?
Is some other tension arising between Cynthia and Molly? "If Molly had not had the sweetest disposition in the world she might have become jealous of all the allegiance laid at Cynthia's feet; but she never thought of comparing the amount of admiration and love which they each received. Yet once she did feel a little as if Cynthia were poaching on her manor...." What's the cause of Molly's hurt feelings?
Bellamarie, you and I were posting at the same time. I'm guessing that Mrs. Gaskell didn't get a chance to "fact check" her book before she died and that's why there is the age discrepancy.
Those are helpful excerpts that you've posted. I am especially struck by this one:
"I am not good, and I never shall be a heroine still, but I shall never be a good woman, I know."
"Do you think it's easier to be a heroine?"
"Yes, as far as one knows of heroines from history. I'm capable of a great jerk, an effort, and then a relaxation__but steady, everyday goodness is beyond me. I must be a moral kangaroo!"
Do we have an heroic act from Cynthia to look forward to, in between times when she lacks "everday goodness"?
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Mr. Preston is a worriesome character, don't you think? One of very few in this novel. Is there anyone who finds him likeable or trustworthy? Brings Molly to tears when he puts down the Hamleys - the Squire, Osborne...even Roger, only a "senior wrangler," who will never amount to anything. Does anyone have a footnote explaining "senior wrangler"? You have to hand it to Cynthia - she believes in senior wranglers, in Roger and doesn't believe the Hamley family is near extinction. Later she confesses she doesn't know the Hamleys - probably knows nothing of senior wranglers either.
I liked Mrs. Gaskell's choice of words describing Molly's feelings when she saw all of Osborne's attention focus on Cynthia when he first saw her. No longer does he pay attention to Molly - Yet I saw no flirting on Cynthia's part, or Osborne's - no "poaching" on Molly's territory.
I still feel I don't know Cynthia enough to know what she's capable of if she really wants something...or if she's capable of an heroic act either.
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It's interesting how Clare made the comparison of Osborne, to Preston after Cynthia meets Osborne, and how Clare now has her sights on Clare marrying Osborne. Did Clare at one time expect Cynthia to marry Preston? This would make sense in a way, because for some reason Preston seemed to lay claim to Cynthia, even expecting she would come live at Ashcombe.
pg. 282 "As soon as he was gone (Osborne) Mrs. Gibson began in his praise. "Well, really, I begin to have some faith in long descent. What a gendeman (another misspelled word) he is! How agreeable and polite! So different from that forward Mr. Preston," she continued, looking a little anxious at Cynthia. Cynthia quite aware that her reply was being watched for, said, coolly (misspelled)__ "Mr. Preston doesn't improve on acquaintance. There was a time, mamma, when I think both you and I thought him very agreeable." "I don't remember. You've a clearer memory than I have. But we were talking of this delightful Mr. Osborne Hamley. Why, Molly, you were always talking of his brother__it was Roger this, and Roger that__ I can't think how it was you so seldom mentioned this young man."
Hmmmm.....this is interesting. So why are they so against Mr. Preston now?
marcie, I'm guessing that Mrs. Gaskell didn't get a chance to "fact check" her book before she died and that's why there is the age discrepancy.
That's a possibility, but it is a huge discrepancy, Cynthia saying she was four years old when her father died, compared to Clare telling Molly she was a widow of seven months. That's a seven year swing. Do you suppose Mrs. Gaskell meant for Clare to say "seven years" rather than "months?" The more I think about this statement, "In high good-humour Mrs. Kirkpatrick made reply; "I don't look as if I was married, do I? Every one is surprised. And yet I have been a widow for seven months now; and not a grey hair on my head, though Lady Cuxhaven, who is younger than I has ever so many."
I am thinking Gaskell meant to write "years." There are so many misspelled words in the book, this could have been an oversight as well.
Ciao for now.
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Interesting, the references to time and age, here. But whatever, we know the girls are now about seventeen years. They're close in age.
Reading their comments on "being good" and loving someone took me back to my teaching days, thinking about how we called some children "a child at risk." Refering to a child who has suffered some blows and will need extra help and assistance. A child who has perhaps lost someone close, has moved from a comfortable home, etc.
I think both Molly and Cynthia were children at risk in their early lives, but the care and treatment each received was very different. Molly lost her mother at an early age, but she knew she had her father's love and knew she was important to him. NOt only that, but the people of Hollingford took Molly into their hearts (especially the Brownings) and showed her that they cared about her. Her world was stable and caring and filled with people who showed her their love.
On the other hand, no one understood the loss that Cynthia felt when her father died. Her mother was wrapped up in herself, and while she may have loved her daughter, didn't really show it. Cynthia was not surrounded by those "cookie people" who make everything right in the world. She hasn't really learned about loving people because she hasn't experienced it.
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So much to puzzle over in this book, even without the misspellings and fact checks. Seven months, or seven years? It has to be seven months. Let's go back to Chapter 2 one more time. At the Towers, and Molly has just met Mrs Kirkpatrick. A lunch arrives for Molly. Of which she has only the grapes, while Mrs Kirkpatrich consumes the rest. Molly looks on in wonder:
'She (Mrs K, Clare) was so pretty and so graceful in her deep mournig, that even in her hurry in eating, as if she was afraid of some one coming to surprise her in the act, did not keep her little observer from admiring her in all she did.'
Then, two pages along, several hours later, preparing for dinner, we find Mrs K taking off her black morning gown; and putting on her dressing gown
Even in mourning, or any morning, she looks gorgeous. And the same thing is said about Cynthia. She would, we're told, look good in rags. And how often we're reminded of the problem of dressing Molly to look presentable.
What a wonderful maze of fiction we find ourselves in.
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The discrepancy of the time frames, of when Mr. Kirkpatrick died, makes me wonder how Gaskell could be so far off on this, at two different parts of the book. I really did not intend to be fact checking, it's just when I read Cynthia tell Molly she was 4 yrs old it confused me. It will be interesting if this comes back around, further in the book for clarification. I'm not a person that can say, whatever and go on. I am a novice writer, and I can't imagine a writer making such an important mistake. I find myself wondering if it really does mean something, and will be revealed.
So on to chapter XX1 for me!
Ciao for now~
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http://www.clerkmaxwellfoundation.org/WranglersWhatBecame2008_1_24.pdf
This an article on Senior Wranglers. Apparently it was a huge honor and a great intellectual achievement. There are also articles explaining it in Wikipedia if you just Google the term.
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JoanP, I agree that Mr. Preston seems worrisome. Why is he showing up at all and why does he keep pursuing Cynthia? Harriet has heard bad rumors about him and has already warned Molly away from him. Bellamarie, I think I could understand how a writer could lose track of ages if she had intended one line of thought/action and then changed her mind later on. The impression that Molly has given me is much younger than her chronological age. Jonathan makes a good case for Clare being in mourning. In any case, as you say, we'll see if there is mention later on of any more chronology.
Pedln, those are great points about Molly and Cynthia both being at risk as children and the different ways they were/were not supported by family and friends. Thanks very much Lucy, for that informative article on senior wranglers.
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Lucy - thank you so much for that informative article about the prestige attached to achieving the status of Senior Wrangler!
The securing of the top
position as Senior Wrangler was regarded, at the time, as the greatest intellectual achievement
attainable in Britain and the Senior Wrangler was fted well beyond Cambridge and accorded pre-
eminent status among his peers - indeed years in Cambridge were often remembered in terms of
who had been Senior Wrangler in that year.
I then googled "senior wrangler" as you suggested - and found this:
"Obtaining the position of a highly ranked Wrangler created many opportunities for the individual's subsequent profession. They would often become Fellows initially, before moving on to other professions, such as law, the Church, or medicine. Throughout the United Kingdom and the British Empire, university mathematics professors were often among the top three Wranglers"
Way to go, Roger! Doors are opening to him - though he isn't receiving recognition on the home front - YET!
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With an eye on the discussion schedule in the heading, we move on to the next chapters XXI-XXVII today - but of course any observations from previous chapters are welcome. Mrs. Gaskell is building on them as she moves along. Can anyone tell me if the Hamley boys and Mr. Preston (does he have a first name?) - have they met before now? The "worrisome" Mr. Preston seems to know a lot about the Hamleys... I'm starting to worry what might happen if Cynthia, the object of his affection, begins to show interest in either of the Hamley boys.
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WOW! So Senior Wrangler indeed shows, Roger has a successful career in store for him. And now in these next chapters it is as I suspected, Mr. Hamley is realizing how he and Mrs. Hamley gave all the attention to Osborne, they spoiled him and now he sees the consequences, and it seems he is ready to voice his disappointment to Osborne finally. He is so upset to see Osborne home, dressing like a "king" and not helping in any way to get himself, and family out of the financial mess he has made. And we still have NO idea what he did with all the money. I was a bit shocked to read Osborne asking for his expected money to make a life of his own. So has he married, keeping it a secret, come home to collect his share, so he can then go live with his wife?
I'm feeling very sad for the squire, he is realizing how being uneducated has kept him from having made friends, and now here he sits in his morning dressing clothes, in his dark study, going over the figures and frustrated, because he sees his estate in ruins. He and the sons relied so heavily on Mrs. Hamley he just can't seem to know what to do now without her. She was the mortar that held the family together, she was their rock, and their soft place to fall. So now it seems Roger will assume that position in the family.
Ciao for now~
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What an interesting, challenging set of questions for this weeks chapters. Really? Can there be answers for all of them somewhere in there? What a challenge it must have been to tell this story. Is it any wonder if, as Marcie points out, the author, 'intended one line of thought/action and then changed her mind later on'? Mrs Gaskell's characters are leading her a merry dance. Or is it her lively imagination? She certainly gives her readers lots of scope to speculate on the passing scene. As a reader it's difficult to know how to allocate one's sympathies.
My personal list would put Squire Hamley at the top: 'I'm getting old,' he said, 'and my head less clear than it used to be. I think sorrow for her has dazed me.' End of Chapter 22
He's the father, who 'had been rather proud in the days when he had looked forward to a brilliant career at Cambridge for his son; he had at that time regarded Osborne's fastidiousness and elegance as another stepping- stone to the high and prosperous marriage which was to restore the ancient fortunes of the Hamley family.' His first-born son has let him down and now his wife has died, his strngth is failing...sad, sad, sad.
But there are the step-sisters to cheer us up. Cynthia and Molly. The lovely, refined Cynthia with her 'quips and cranks'. And the tomboy Molly, who can be found 'sitting up in a cherry tree, six feet from the ground at least.'
Molly can do two steps at a time going up the stairs. Cynthia, not to be outdone, can manage four, if their broad and shallow.
And then there's their mother who 'piqued herself on being an impartial stepmother'. p253, ch 21. Good for you, Clare. It's tough, isn't it?
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As you say, Jonathan, Mrs. Gaskell has supplied her readers' imaginations with much on which to speculate.
Things are certainly lively at the Gibsons...a steady stream of admirers, Cynthia the main attraction.
What did you think of Osborne's visits to the Gibson home? Poor Molly must have been as bewildered as we are - knowing his secret. He's not behaving like a newly married man, is he? Mrs. G., The "impartial stepmother" is already matchmaking those two attractive young people - which seems to not sit well with Molly. Do you detect any hurt feelings the way the young men all react to Cynthia's striking beauty? Does it help that Cynthia appears to be unaware of the sensation she is causing?
The only time Cynthia reacts to these expressions of admiration is when they come from Mr. Preston - with fire in her eyes! Did you notice Molly's reaction to This character? I thought she handled herself remarkably well, didn't you?
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Jonathon,
And then there's their mother who 'piqued herself on being an impartial stepmother'. p253, ch 21. Good for you, Clare. It's tough, isn't it?
Is Clare really as impartial as Gaskell states, or as Clare would like to think she is? Afterall, if Clare has her way she has already decided her daughter Cynthia and Osborn are the more attractive and more intelligent of the four, so she has paired them together, while Roger will be just fine for Molly. Hmmm...if I were impartial, I would want the "best" for both girls. The funny thing here is....WE know the truth, so while Clare "thinks" she is choosing the best for her daughter, we know he not only is NOT available, but, Roger is proving to be very intelligent, in his own slow way getting there, and will probably be the more successful one of the two. Not to mention he will most likely be key, in Osborne getting his poems published.
I don't sense Molly & Roger would ever end up together. I'm suspecting Coxe is going to return on the scene, an established doctor coming to profess his love to Molly. Call me a hopeless romantic, but I think Mr. Gibson, will see his qualities, and realize trying to keep him from Molly, only may have made Coxe even more determined to earn his right to at least let Molly decide for herself, NOW that she is coming out at the Easter ball. Yep, I think the fox will attempt to return to the hen house. :)
Jonathon, Is it any wonder if, as Marcie points out, the author, 'intended one line of thought/action and then changed her mind later on'?
I just can't accept this is the reason for the discrepancy. Gaskell is an established writer, I can't see this as her changing her mind, knowing her reader will see the age difference. It has to be a typo error, gone unnoticed, like all the misspelled words, or some other explanation. Authors just don't make these type of mistakes on purpose. I'm going to wait til the end of the book, to see if there is a clarification for it.
So, I am finally to the chapter we know Osborne's wife's name is Aimee, and is a Catholic, French girl of lowly status. OH BOY I can just see the reaction when everyone learns this. I sense the poor squire is going to die of a broken heart, and never have to know about this disappointment. He is at a point in his life, he is giving up, and this would be just too much to put on him. I like how Gaskell opened the idea of people liking and accepting Aimee, if they had the chance to meet her. I was thinking the same thing. Isn't prejudice a nasty thing to have to live with? It sure does cause a lot of heartache. I feel sad for Aimee, living far off, in a unpleasant living style, while Osborne is flitting around in his best dressed clothes, visiting young girls, giving false hope for a possible relationship. Molly and Cynthia are close friends, but one thing that could harm their relationship is of course a man! Molly knows she is not as beautiful as Cynthia, but that in no way leaves her to believe she does not have the same chance, to have the same attention, from either Osborne or Roger. Gaskell keeps repeating Roger and Osborne, telling Molly she is like their sister. So in all reality Gaskell is saying, they in no way see Molly in a romantic light. I'm not sure Molly sees either of them romantically either, she just does not like feeling left out.
Ciao for now~
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Interesting the prejudice against the French that is shown here. Want to see what Gaskell does with this if the wife shows up. I remember Dickens, (writing later true). His French characters were always sly.
I remember thinking, before Cynthia showed up, that Clare didn't want her coming back from France because she had become a loose woman. Am I sharing in stereotypes about Frenchwomen? That doesn't seem to be the case at all. What does Gaskell want us to think of Cynthia? Do you like her?
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There certainly seems to be some mystery about the past of Clare, Cynthia, and Mr. Preston. What could it be?
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I have no idea why Mr. Presaton is disliked by Cythia and her mother and Lady Harriet and by extension Molly. I don't remember the plot at all from my encounter with it 50 years ago. But Mr. Gibson, although he feels he should repay Preston for the hospitality he showed him at the time of his wedding "had yet an instinctive distaste to the man," which obligation could not overcome. Preston is handsome and accomplished an an athlete, so what is wrong with him? We shall see..
Clare is both afraid of him and admires him and would invite him to attend ball with them (because of the shortage of available men) but Cynthia refuses to go if Preston is their guest.
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Jonathan, I'm always intrigued and entertained by your posts. Are you throwing over your previous favorite, Clare, for the squire? ;)
He and Osborne seem kept apart from one another through their pride and stubborn nature. It seems it's also what has kept the squire from finding friendship. He thinks he isn't educated enough and likely is prejudiced against educated men as too "dandy" for him. It seems that if he had made an effort, he would have had friends who could share in his hospitality and hunting, etc, if not in conversation.
What is Osborne doing at the Gibson's? Is he finding some respite from the loneliness and bad feelings in his father's house? Molly doesn't think that he's behaving improperly with Cynthia (given what Molly knows) but Clare certainly has her hopes up for a match.
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I'll bet Molly is wondering too what the new "groom" is doing at the Gibsons' home, Marcie. Maybe he's just trying to make some connections with the neighbors, now that he is back home for good. Maybe he thinks his new wife will enjoy Cynthia's company. They speak the same language...I'm trying to be positive here. He can't be courting - as Clare is hoping.
This isn't the first we've heard negative comments regarding the French, JoanK- although French fashion, French language...are considered an asset. No one is criticizing Cynthia's French style. So why is the Squire so close-minded about the French? Mrs. Gaskell writes that the Squire "hated the French collectively and individually." It has been my experience that people who are racially prejudiced come to like and appreciate individuals when they get to know them. Poor little Aimee...she will have a difficult time of it - if and when Osborne brings her home to the Hall. Will she win the Squire's heart? With Molly's help perhaps?
Can we put our heads together to understand why the English - some of the English - have such strong anti-French sentiments at this time? What do you see in Aimee's future - will she ever be the mistress of Hamley Hall?
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The squire has not managed his estate productively and has failed to adopt modern methods of timber management keeping the old trees for sentimental reasons. It is similar to the difficulty that Lord Crawley in Downton Abbey finds himself. At first he resents Matthew's ideas and then realizes he needs help and accepts them.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
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You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 3 Jan.23 - Feb.1
Jan.23 - Jan.29}
Chapter 21. The Half-Sisters
Chapter 22. The Old Squire's Troubles
Chapter 23. Osborne Hamley Reviews His Position
Chapter 24. Mrs Gibson's Little Dinner
Chapter 25. Hollingford In A Bustle
Chapter 26. A Charity Ball
Chapter 27. Father And Sons
Jan. 30-Feb.1}
Chapter 28. Rivalry
Chapter 29. Bush-Fight
Chapter 30. Old Ways And New Ways
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Some Things to Think About
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER XXI The Half Sisters
Which sister does Osborne come to visit? Could Cynthia and Roger possibly become interested in one another? How would this affect Molly? Does she already notice an attraction between the two?
CHAPTER XXII. The Old Squire's Troubles
Do you see a way out of the squire's troubles? He's sold his timber, taken loans on his land. What is Osborne's reaction when he learns there is no more money for his trips? Would Roger have been able to help if he was home?
CHAPTER XXIII. Osborne Hamley Reviews His Position
Why can't Osborne just tell his father about his wife and bring her home to the Hall?
Were you surprised at any of the options he considered to make a living? How did Roger advise him?
CHAPTER XXIV Mrs. Gibson's Little Dinner
What more does Mrs. Gaskell reveal about Cynthia in this chapter? Do you feel you know her any better? Did she really understand Roger's scientific explanation? Is her memory for poetry as prodigious as her mother brags? Does she really think of herself as a dunce? Why does Mrs. Gibson say Molly is worth 20 of Cynthia?
CHAPTER XXV Hollingford in a Bustle
Did you enjoy Mrs. Gaskell's account of Clare's "luncheon" at the Tower before the ball and her later description when she returned home?
Were you puzzled at Cynthia's fussing over Molly to make her attractive at the ball? Did she have an ulterior motive? When Molly wished she was pretty like Cynthia, were you surprised at Cynthia's response?
CHAPTER XXVI A Charity Ball
What did you learn from the gossipy old maids who attended the ball, regarding Mr. Preston, Clare and Cynthia? Do you find him dangerous?
"One thing Mrs. Gibson hates - trying to pretend intimacy with great people." Did this make you smile?
What sort of election is coming in June? How will it affect Lord Hollingsworth?
"It was not an unsatisfactory ball upon the whole, to Mrs. Gibson." Oh? How many occasions did you count the lady's dissatisfaction at this ball?
CHAPTER XXVII Father and Sons
Why do you think the Squire believes Lord Hollingsford invitation to Roger is some sort of whig trick? Why is he furious with Roger? Were you surprised Roger decided not to accept the invitation?
Given his deep-rooted prejudices, will the Squire ever accept Osborne's French bride, whom Osborne regards as the future mistress of Hamley Hall? Do you understand where Osborne is spending his money now?
CHAPTER XXVIII. Rivalry
Molly thinks, "Mrs Gibson was ready to go over the ground [about the ball] as many times as any one liked; but her words were always like ready-made clothes, and never fitted individual thoughts. Anybody might have used them, and, with a change of proper names, they might have served to describe any ball. She repeatedly used the same language in speaking about it, till Molly knew the sentences and their sequence even to irritation."
Is Molly finally catching on to Clare? Will her comments forthwith change to let her step-mother know that she has given herself away?
I am reading along and wondering why the author named this chapter "Rivalry"? I guess there is a rivalry among the players but softly presented.
The medicines available to this era are self limiting, aren't they? As Cynthia is offered "a sweet emulsion that will hide the bitters", she says she prefers the bitters without the sweetness. And after taking them for a few days, Cynthia seems to be recovering from "sorrows and cares". I am curious about bitters and what exactly they are expected to do.
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com ), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net), ADOANNIE (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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Lucy, there is a strong resemblance between the management - the mis-management of the two estates, Hamley and Downton, isn't there? Can anyone keep these old estates going - or are they part of the past?
I understood that the Squire was trying to avoid the need to sell any of his land - so he's been selling off the timber. I'm wondering what a better manager could have done in his place?
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It is interesting how in these last couple of chapters Gaskell has brought to the forefront prejudice of religion, nationality, and education, along with already status, and income. Good point JoanK., is Gaskell alluding to French women as loose? I am aware of the religious, economical, and region differences throughout Great Britain, and Europe, and now Gaskell, is bringing it into the story. It just brought a very somber feeling to me, after the first part of the book being so light and humorous. I am anxious to meet Aimee. Osborne has showed very little respect for her as a married man, concealing her, and the fact he is unavailable, getting Cynthia and Clare's hopes up. I think this says a lot about Osborne's character.
Lucy, Yes, I think Gaskell is trying to show in order to maintain these large estate, you must change with the times. You can not stay stuck in the past, holding on to your sentiments of things. I think her showing how the Hollingfords are busy repairing and getting their estate ready for the Easter ball, is a way of saying they are more up with the times. I'm still feeling sad for the squire. Mrs. Hamley was his rock, his reason for living, he just doesn't seem to want to go on without her. I fear his days are limited.
On to finish up chapter 23 - 27 today. My daycare has become a bit high maintenance since I took on a new 6 week old colicy baby, not as much time at naptime to read like it was before she came. Our temps are going down into -30 below wind chill factor with more snow on the way so this week- end is going to be a snuggle up and read one for me!
Ciao for now~
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Marcie asks: 'What is Osborne doing at the Gibsons?' I appreciate the answers she got on that. I would like to add that it's a chance for him to get out of the house. The falling out between father and son leaves Osborne feeling very unwelcome. His heart is with Aimee, 'the little wife who was passing her lonely days in farmhouse lodgings in Alsace'. I regret that we aren't given a chance to read the eight sonnets that Osborne has composed about Aimee.
This raises an interesting point for me. Osborne's ambition is to become a famous poet. If the sonnets make Aimee famous, like Wordsworth's [Lucy[/i], why then perhaps his father will take to her and allow his son to bring his wife home. It's the literary allusion that fascinates me. Wordsworth himself, after finishing at Cambridge, travelled in France; engaged in a love affair with Annette, who bore him a daughter.
Gaskell has an allusion for every occasion. Some seem dubious. Like the one that comes with the excitement of the charity ball, 'a very allowable and favourite piece of dissipation to all the kindly old maids who thronged the country towns of England', who came to watch 'a younger generation dance on 'regardless of their doom'.
Now that line is taken from Grays lovely poem, A Distant Prospect of Eton College with its melancholy theme.
She does the same thing to Clare. What can one make of this. At the beginning of Chapter 24, we read that, 'Mrs Gibson really gave them a welcome (to her dinner party) and cordiality in a hostess is a very becoming mantle for any other deficiencies there may be. Now, of course, I don't think of Clare being perfect, but this insinuation is really too much. But then all her characters are flawed, with the exception of Molly and Roger. I must include the Squire, overwhelmed by sorrow and anger, with only his horse to hear his laments. His wondeful trees offered as collateral for a loan by his son. A son who is looking around for a way to earn a living and dismissing a career in the church....'to be compelled to write sermons whether one had anything to say or not...' Spoken like a true poet?
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-I'm beginning to think we are being a bit hard on Osborne. Can we blame him for the way he's been brought up? Never has he had to consider a profession - or any other way to earn a living - for himself - let alone his new wife. He's always planned on living in Hamley Hall and still thinks it's an option.
Did I read somewhere in these chapters that one of the reasons he's spending so much money is because he wants Aimee to be comfortable in preparation for her life as mistress of Hamley Hall someday? I've searched but cannot find this passage.
While searching, I did reread Osborne's thoughts on his future as he begins to realize he will have to do something to earn his way. Weren't you surprised at the number of options opened to him? Mrs. Gaskell seems to really enjoy ticking off these options...the bar,the army, the clergy - funny, funny comment on sermons. He finds none of these acceptable. :D
Which is it - Hamley Hall or Australia, Osborne? What is Roger's advice to his elder brother?
Little one is fortunate to have you, Bella - a grandchild?
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'a very allowable and favourite piece of dissipation to all the kindly old maids who thronged the country towns of England', who came to watch 'a younger generation dance on 'regardless of their doom'.
Good catch, Jonathan I become more and more impressed with Mrs. Gaskell's knowledge of language and literature. And yours! Did you recognize Gray's poem...or do you have a footnote?
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Are we being a bit hard on Osborne? Good observation, JoanP. Or are we being manipulated by the author? Just look how uncharitable she is with with sundry characters at the Charity Ball. And one in particular. What a chapter!
Osborne's spending is cleared up in Chapter 27, Father and Sons:
[b'Aimee lived solitary in the little cottage near Winchester in which Osborne had installed her when she first came to England as his wife, and the dainty furnishinging of which he had run himself so deeply into debt. For Osborne consulted his own fastidious taste in his purchases rather than her simple childlike wishes and wants....'[/b]
I was put on to the Gray poem by a footnote. It was the kind of poem that many people memorized. An allusion to it must have been a cultural thing. It certainly seems faus pas at the hilarious Charity Ball. I'm amused at the use of French phrases describing the prejudiced Squire. Like mauvaise honte. What does that mean. I can't find my French dictionary.
And now she has become his 'comforter.'
In an earlier chapter I got the impression that she was living in France, in Alsace.
What a charming romance. They met in Hyde Park. In a way it was helping a maiden in distress. And the 'one touch of kindness', on Osborne's part, 'set the fountain gushing', and 'Aimee and Osborne naturally fell into an ideal state of love.'
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I'm convinced that Mrs. Gaskell had a good working knowledge of the French language from the context in which she uses French idioms,, Jonathan. In my other life, I was a French teacher. :D
The word "mauvais" = "bad"; "honte"="shame." In this context, " mauvais honte"= "embarrassment."
"It had never been the squire's custom to encourage his boys to invite their friends to the Hall. Perhaps this, too, was owing to his mauvaise honte, and also to an exaggerated consciousness of the deficiencies of his establishment as compared with what he imagined these lads were accustomed to at home."
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Hmmm....Once again, a big event is taking place, and once again Gaskell has down played it, to almost boring and non eventful. Here I was so looking forward to the Easter ball, as was everyone, anticipating the Duchess Menteith in her fine clothes, and excited to see the famous Menteith diamonds, and yet, the Towers party with the Duchess, comes in late, nearly midnight, and she is dressed in simple clothes and no jewels! What's up with that???
pg. 340 "But to-night they were unusually late, and the aristocratic ozone being absent from the atmosphere, there was a flatness about the dancing of all those considered themselves above the plebeian (one of the common people) ranks of the tradespeople."
No real suitor for Cynthia or Molly to speak of, and Mrs. Gibson sits mostly alone since Mr. Gibson had to leave. Mr. Preston is ticked off, because he sees Cynthia has not carried his bouquet of flowers to the ball, and has some words with her that seems to put her in a less gay mood, and somewhat somber. What hold does he have over her and Clare?
pg. 343 "She (Clare) evidently was rather afraid of Mr. Preston, and wished to keep at peace with him."
pg. 344"and he (Preston) walked off to stand behind Cynthia in the quadrille that was being danced; and Molly saw him making her reply to him__against her will, Molly was sure. But, somehow, his face and manner implied power over her. She looked grave, deaf, indifferent, indignant, defiant; but, after a half-whispered speech to Cynthia, at the conclusion of the dance, she evidently threw him an impatient consent to what he was asking, for he walked off with a disagreeable smile of satisfaction on his handsome face."
Why is Clare so bent on not allowing Molly to have anything to do with Lady Harriet?
pg. 346 "Lady Harriet's speaking at all to Molly had become to Mrs. Gibson almost like shaking a red rag at a bull; it was the one thing sure to put her out of temper."
pg. 348 "Molly, I cannot have you speaking to Lady Harriet," said Mrs. Gibson as soon as she was left alone with her stepdaughter. "You would never have known her at all if it had not been for me, and don't be always putting yourself into our conversation." "But I must speak if she asks me questions," pleaded Molly. (Clare) "If there is one thing I hate more than another, it is the trying to make out an intimacy with great people." Molly felt innocent enough, so she offered no justification of herself, and made no reply.
And then there is Clare realizing that Molly may just be a bit more interesting and intelligent than her Cynthia, when Lord Hollingford, compliments Molly to Mr. Gibson:
pg. 252 "What a charming little lady that your daughter of your is! Most girls her age are so difficult to talk to; but she is intelligent and full of interest in all sorts of sensible things; well read, too__she was up in Le Regne Animal__and very pretty!"
Mrs. Gibson's thoughts wandered into futurity. She only wished that the happy chance had fallen to Cynthia's instead of Molly's lot. It was a pity that Cynthia preferred making millinery to reading; but perhaps that could be rectified.
The next morning Clare sees Cynthia reading a newspaper, and says, "Cynthia! can't you take up a book and improve yourself?" This cracked me up, it's like if she wishes it, it will happen. :D
One little crumb Gaskell has dropped at the ball is this:
Miss Piper is scanning the room of who's who, and says to Phoebe,
"And there is Coxe the butcher and his wife! Why, all Coreham seems to be here! And how Mrs. Coxe can afford such a gown I can't make out for one, for I know Coxe had some difficulty in paying for the last sheep he bought of my brother."
An indication, I suspect that their son Coxe has become successful, and probably has bought this gown for his mother possibly??? Or is this my foolish, romantic hope he is going to return for Molly?
Ciao for now~
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Jonathon,
"In an earlier chapter I got the impression that she was living in France, in Alsace."
She was, but got dismissed when the mistress found out about her relationship with Osborne, so now he has her living in Winchester.
pg. 359 " It will be a month next Monday since I left her," said Osborne, laying down his papers and gazing into the fire, as if by so doing he could call up her image. "In her letter this morning she bids me give you such a pretty message. It won't bear translating into English; you must read it for yourself," continued he, pointing out a line or two in a letter he drew out of his pocket.
Roger suspect that one or two of the words were wrongly spelt; but their purport was so gentle and loving, and had such a touch of simple, respectful gratitude in them, that he could not help being drawn afresh to the little unseen sister-in-law, whose acquaintance Osborne had made by helping her to look for some missing article of the children's, whom she was taking for their daily walk in Hyde Park. For Mrs. Osborne Hamley had been nothing more than a French bonne, very pretty, very graceful, and very much tyrannized over by the rough little boys and girls she had in charge. She was a little orphan girl, who had charmed the heads of travelling English family, as she brought madame some articles of lingerie at an hotel; and she had been hastily engaged by them as bonne to their children, partly as a pet and play-thing herself, partly because it would be so good for the children to learn French from a native (of Alsace!). By and by her mistress ceased to take any particular notice of Aimee in the bustle of London and London gaiety; but though feelings more and more forlorn in a strange land every day, the French girl strove hard to do her duty. One touch of kindness, however, was enough to set the fountain gushing; and she and Osborne naturally fell into an ideal state of love, to be rudely disturbed by the indignation of the mother, when accident discovered to her the attachment existing between her children's bonne and a young man of an entirely different class. Aimee answered truly to all her mistress's questions; but no wordly wisdom, nor any lesson to be learnt from another's experience, could in the least disturb her entire faith in her lover. Perhaps Mrs. Townsend did no more than her duty in immediately sending Aimee back to Metz, where she had first met with her, and where such relations as remained to the girl might be supposed to be residing. But, altogether, she knew so little of the kind of people or life to which she was consigining her deposed protegee that Osborne, after listening with impatient indignation to the lecture which Mrs. Townsend gave him when he insisted on seeing her in order to learn what had become of his love, that the young man set off straight for Metz in hot haste, and did not let the grass grow under his feet until he had made Aimee his wife. All this had occurred previous autumn, and Roger did not know of the step his brother had taken until it was irrevocable.
pg. 360 "Aimee lived solitary in the little cottage near Winchester in which Osborne had installed her when she first came to England, an his wife.........He had chosen a southern county as being far removed from those midland shires where the name of Hamley of Hamley was well and widely known; for he did not wish to assume only for a time a name which was not justly and legally her own.
If she ever wished to go to the chateau__that was his home__and to be introduced to his family, Aimee never hinted a word of it to him. Only she did yearn, and she did plead, for a little more of her husband's company; and the good reasons which had convinced her of the necessity of his being so much away when he was present to urge them, failed in their efficacy when she tried to reproduce them to herself in his absence.
I just feel Osborne is being very selfish, if he loved her as much as she loves him, he would not leave her all alone. He could write collect his poems and give them to Roger for publishing, living with Aimee. He is living the life of comfort, while she waits, and pleads for him. I don't think that is being too hard on him. Yes, he was raised spoiled, but he is not ignorant. He knows his options, yet he says none of them will be acceptable. I feel so very sorry for this sweet, young, innocent girl.
Ciao for now~
JoanP., I own my in home daycare, I do my grandchildren for not charge, while I care for four other paying families. My one mother had a baby in November, and wanted to return to her work early, so I have had her baby since 4 weeks old, with colic. I keep telling myself, NO MORE infants!
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'an exaggerated consciousness of the deficiencies of his establishment'
Of course. Thanks JoanP. As proud as he is of his heritage, the old squire doesn't really belong to the world of those schooled at the classy schools of England, like Eton and Cambridge. His misery, it almost seems, exceeds that of Job and King Lear. His hatred of the French is still a carryover from the events of years ago, when Napolean kept England at war for so many years. But then England and France were enemies off and on for centuries. Remember the One Hundred Years' War of centuries ago?
Bellamarie, I love your attention to detail. Why didn't the duchess wear her diamonds to the ball? I believe she saved those for court appearances. For the Charity Ball she would just like to look young. There is a sadness about many incidents at the ball. With everybody aware of their place in society.
And then there is Aimee, living in Winchester, with her husband living in misery in Hamley. A heartbreaking romance, isn't it? What did you think of Mrs Townshend's interference. For Aimee there was advice, based on her own 'experience' and 'worldly wisdom'. For Osborne, Mrs T had a 'lecture'. The lovers declined...and got married. Will they ever be happy. Can yous see Aimee as the lady of Hamley?
What can we make of the information that Aimee was brought to England by the Townshends...'hastily engaged by them as bonne to their children, partly as pet and plaything herself....' For whom?
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"Can yous see Aimee as the lady of Hamley?"
Good question, Jonathan. Do you think that's where the story is going? (In the back of my mind, I see Miss Molly in that role - but we have half the book with many twists and turns before us.)
I keep reminding self that Mrs. Gaskell is living and writing at a time of great change in England. Does she stand with the conservative Tories...or the liberal Whigs looking for change? Her frequent references to the French and Bonaparte seem to indicate that she believes it is time for change from the old ways.
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I don't know what Mrs. Gaskell's politics were, but she was an advocate for the poor and she spoke out against the inhumane conditions in factories, the meager salaries, long hours, and dangerous conditions. In Mary Barton, her first novel, she wrote about labor unions and one character is a street walker. She was tolerant of all religions though married to a Unitarian minister.
Why does Clare not want Molly speaking to Lady Harriet? Clare is jealous of any attention anyone gets other than herself or her daughter. She can't allow anyone to win favor without feeling that it is her personal loss. When somebody else wins, she loses. She's a poor sport, if you want to think of this social striving as a sport, one which is taken very seriously by Clare.
The people from the Towers are like the Kardashians. What are they wearing, when will they arrive, who do they converse with? People can't enjoy the ball until they have made their appearance. People expect them to wear bright and beautiful clothing and Lady Montieth her diamonds, just like many today observe what is worn on the red carpet. Mrs. Gaskell is showing us how society functions. Would you call this a novel of manners?
Osborne cannot leave Hamley Hall and move in with his wife because he needs money, and the only way he can get it is from his father (very little) and his brother Roger who gives him half of his earnings as a fellow. Osborne is not a man of action; he seems to suffer from apathy and inaction and prefers to maintain the status quo and not upset his father. People like this delay the inevitable, which is what Mrs. Gaskell is doing to maintain the interest of the reader.
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Lucy,
"Osborne is not a man of action; he seems to suffer from apathy and inaction and prefers to maintain the status quo and not upset his father. People like this delay the inevitable, which is what Mrs. Gaskell is doing to maintain the interest of the reader.
I am a bit confused with Osborne's character, he took immediate action to find Aimee and marry her, as Gaskell said, "no moss grew under his feet." Yet, he comes home after he has stashed his young orphan, very innocent, wife, in a town where no one would know the name, Hamley of Hamley's Hall, and he dallies around the house acting like he is not married at all. He knows his father has little to no money left, because of him spending it for the more expensive decorations and furnishings for Aimee's hideout cottage, when she would have been very comfortable and happy with simple things, so why hang around at all, as miserable as it is making everyone? (I ask rhetorically) Yes, I can see he would want to give Aimee nice things, but it was not his money to squander. He may not want to upset his father, but indeed he has done just that. He has not maintained the status quo, he has married outside his region, religion and status. Until the squire dies, I don't see Aimee coming to Hamley Hall. And if and when the squire does die, can Aimee assume the position of the lady of Hamley Hall, and be acceptable in this very snotty and prejudice town? I seriously think not. I can almost see Osborne taking what ever inheritance he does get and leaving to live in France with Aimee. Would he not be there now, if he could afford it? Did he not come home, only because he was sent for, because his mother was dying?
The squire senses, Osborne has set his own future in motion, on the notion the squire will die, and he will have his money. This seems to be what has hurt the squire the most. So very sad. Jonathon, I agree, the squire is pretty much taking account of his life now and realizes he does not fit in with the new and changing lifestyles. He is longing to be with Mrs. Hamley. The fight is out of him, now that he has lost his wife, his estate's value, his money, his relationship with Osborne, and feels his son is just waiting around for him to die.
Lucy, Yes, the Kardashians are a good comparison to the people of the Towers. ::) Sad to admit, I am a Kardashian junkie. :-[
I also see Clare as the self centered, egotistical character as you. But....I think there is more to her not wanting Molly too close to Lady Harriet. There seems to be a secret that Clare, Cynthia, Lady Harriet and Preston all have, and Molly is a threat to finding out what is it. Clare does not want her anywhere near Lady Harriet, because we can all see Harriet just speaks her mind, with no care, and this is really making Clare crazy, as in seeing red as a bull!
JoanP,. Good point, is Gaskell preparing the readers for a change, and taking us into a more liberal, modern time for England?
Gaskell seems to contradict her very self, with almost every character in the book. A bit confusing, I might say. No one is who they seem to be. Just when I think I have a fix on one character, something changes, and blows it all out of perspective. Where the first part of the book was fun and humorous, this second part has been very sad, frustrating and mysterious. For a Duchess to dress as a simple waif, coming to a ball, is unthinkable. She is a Duchess, and has an image to keep up. This is fodder for gossip, which indeed the townspeople are doing. Ughhh....What was the purpose of the entire lateness to the ball, and the Duchess's attire? It was so inappropriate and lacking in etiquette. Gaskell has us coming and going.......with no sense or sensibility. Now, that sure was a Freudian slip of the tongue, as in seeing her much like Jane Austen. ;)
Mamma Mia I am so confused with these past chapters.
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Lucy- asks if Mrs. Gaskell has written "novel of manners." What an interesting question, Lucy! Surely not manners to be respected and emulated? Is Mrs. G presenting them as obsolete...or no longer as relevant as in the past? I get the feeling that she may be mocking them...as viewed through Cynthia's eyes. Bella, do you think the nobility (the Duchess) might just be tired of dressing up and showing off for the admiration of the little townpeople - just because it has always been expected of them?
Are you finding Clare less of a threat as the story progresses? And more of a comic figure?
"One thing Mrs. Gibson hates - trying to pretend intimacy with great people."
Of course she would like to see Cynthia make a good match - but how far would she go to assure this?
What more do we learn about Clare's past history with Mr. Preston from the gossip at the ball? He's the one who worries me still - his obvious obsession with Cynthia. What Mrs. Gaskell does with his character will determine for me what sort of a novel she has written, Lucy. Will he turn out to be dangerous - or just a disappointed suitor. Do you see him vying with one of the Hamley boys for her attention?
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bDid any of you think it strange that neither of the Hamley boys attended the ball? But they sent nosegays to the Gibson girls, didn't they? Which the wore that night. Cynthia's wasn't pleased when she received Mr. Preston's flowers - tore his nosegay apart...and pinned one of its flowers in Molly's hair. What was that about? How did you interpret her intent?
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Jonathon,
What did you think of Mrs Townshend's interference. For Aimee there was advice, based on her own 'experience' and 'worldly wisdom'. For Osborne, Mrs T had a 'lecture'. The lovers declined...and got married.
Will they ever be happy. Can yous see Aimee as the lady of Hamley?
I would think Mrs. Townsend had a heart to heart with Aimee, trying to convince her this relationship is going to cause her much hurt. She is drawing from her own wisdom, and experience, to help Aimee see, she knows what she is talking about. I sense Mrs. Townsend was gentle, and motherly to Aimee, but giving her information she needs to know.
As for her lecture with Osborne, I can see myself lecturing him as well. He is older, he has a family, a status and religion that Aimee will not be accepted into. He is acting very selfish in this case, especially since Aimee has NO ONE, friend or family to turn to, in time of need. I feel, maybe Mrs. Townsend was appealing to Osborne's maturity, and offering to keep Aimee on as her bonne, provided he end this r elationship. As Gaskell points out, even Roger did not learn until it was too late, to talk some sense into Osborne.
The heart wants what the heart wants....yet the heart is not always the best judgement. In this case it has left Aimee hidden away, all by herself, pleading and waiting for Osborne to come to her. It has been a month, since he last saw her, imagine a young, orphan girl, married, no income, no job, no one with her, and she is not able to be out and about for fear of being noticed. This is the very thing, I am certain Mrs. Townsend, was hoping to spare her from. I am not sure if they will find happiness, but I do sense she will never assume the position of Lady of Hamley Hall. Personally, I would like to see her gain that position, and acceptance. Gaskell goes every which way the wind blows in this story, so your guess is as good as mine!
JoanP., Cynthia's wasn't pleased when she received Mr. Preston's flowers - tore his nosegay apart...and pinned one of its flowers in Molly's hair.
Cynthia actually took flowers from her own bouquet, from the Hamley's nosegay, and put into Molly's hair. Molly was shocked, because she made the point of how much time they would have taken to arrange such a beautiful bouquet. Cynthia assumed, Osborne made them, and Molly states, she knows how much Roger likes flowers and sent bouquets to his mother, meaning it is possible Roger is the one who arranged them. Preston's nosegay came later, and went into the FLAMES!!! Guess that told us what she thought of that. Yet, Cynthia gives Molly the untouched bouquet from the Hamleys, and Molly tells her to keep that one, but Cynthia does not want it, she wants Molly to have it. These nosegays, truly did not impress Cynthia whatsoever, and she could care less for them, regardless who sent them. She has NO sentiment at all in her.
JoanP., we were posting at the same time. Good Morning!
I am ready to delve into the next set of chapters....
Ciao for now~
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Joan: I did think it strange that Roger and Osborne did not attend the ball, but now I think the reason is that they are in mourning. Wasn't that mentioned briefly earlier?
By novel of manners I mean a novel that depicts the manners of the time, many of which the reader can see are no longer appropriate and are silly and meaningless. In such a novel manners in society are displayed alongside the characters but with more than passing interest.
I think Preston is dangerous because he knows something about Clare and Cynthia that they do not want revealed to the Gibsons or to the people they are among now.
The duchess doesn't have to dress up because her place in this society is secure; she doesn't need to dress to impress (unlike the Kardashians who have to dress to keep their place in society, I guess. Twitter and Facebook have made the social striving nonstop today.) This Hollingford ball is nothing important to her, nor are the people she meets there worth trying to impress. She has a bigger stage than this, for which her diamonds can be worn to advantage.
In a similar vein, Cynthia doesn't need a nosegay or flowers in her hair to impress. She is the prettiest girl there, and she doesn't want or need to try too hard. She is a kind and helpful person when she wants to be and wants to help Molly feel more attractive and enjoy the ball.
Mrs. Townshend is doing her duty to protect her young "bonne," but by being so severe with the young lovers she pushes them together. Better if she had let Osborne visit from time to time and kept her eye on them. He would have realized the impossibility of the situation and gone away on his own.
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We want our characters to be either all bad or all good, and many of Gaskell's characters are neither. That, I think, is why they are confusing.
Interesting that we're not even told who Molly danced with. Again, we are used to Austen's balls, where something of importance always happens. But apparently not here.
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Good point, JoanK. Do you think we might find that Mr. Preston is not quite as bad as we think he is either?
"Not an unsatisfactory ball upon the whole". Funny comment from Mrs. Gibson, don't you think? The woman was kvetching the whole time - about Cynthia dancing every dance-with the wrong people. She must have missed Cynthia's moments with Mr.Preston...she wouldn't have found that "satisfactory," I'm sure.
Bella, of course, Cynthia pinned Osborne's flowers in Molly's hair. I took that to mean that it was not Osborne she was interested in... As you pointed out, she threw Mr. Preston's flowers into the FIRE. How many times have we seen FIRE in Cynthia's eyes at mention of Mr. Preston? Do you think FIRE will be noteworthy?
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I love your comparison of the Princess and the Kardashians, Lucy. My how the world of society and impressions have changed! Tee hee! 184 years have brought us to such a changed world. This book was about the 1830's and later, right? It wasn't published until 1854 or 1864. So the author was writing about what went on in her world, while she was growing up?
I left a comment in here about Osbourne but it never got to this page. I thought that the Squire had not trained Osbourne about what went on when one was in charge of their land. I looked to see if a course on Agriculture was offered at Cambridge in the 1800's and found some interesting things about education at that time. So far, after reading too long, I found this interesting article about Prince William returning to school at Cambridge, to learn how to manage his
Duchy of Cornwall. He will focus on agriculture management.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/30/prince-william-student-agriculture-cambridge-duchy-cornwall
Well, I suppose Osborne was born too soon but he sure could have used this type of education.
I did find minimum info on when Cambridge started to offer agriculture classes and I will quote:
"... The Royal Agricultural University was established in 1845 offering courses in agriculture, business, real estate ..."
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Lucy, I get it now... "a novel that depicts the manners of the time, many of which the reader can see are no longer appropriate and are silly and meaningless. Yes, yes,I agree with you. To write a convincing " novel of manners" you need some characters who see through the nonsense. Molly is slowly emerging as such a character, I think. And Cynthia seems to have been born knowing the score. What can the secret be? It must be important enough or Cynthia wouldn't have let it upset her so. Is she protecting her mother from some damaging information he has? Or her father?
Bella, of course you can read ahead as far as you like. We just ask you not to comment on anything you read that might spoil things for those who are staying with the Discussion Schedule in the heading - the first post at the top of each page.
Annie - we are posting together. I need to go read the link you posted. It 's great to see parallels between then and now...
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'Gaskell seems to contradict her very self, with almost every character in the book. A bit confusing, I might say. No one is who they seem to be. Just when I think I have a fix on one....'
I feel the same way, Bellamarie. I find myself feeling sympathetic with a character, and then they go and let me down. I finding it a great challenge to understand their behavior, or their manner. Do you think it's futile to look for either sense of sensibility in this novel? I do agree that it's a novel of manners, and an excellent one, in the broadest sense of the word. What an hilarious picture we're getting of all classes interacting in a small town in 19c England.
The great expectation to see the duchess and her glittering diamonds. And the duchess going for the peasant look with her simple dress. That's elegant condescension! Lord Hollingford not wanting to embarrass himself for not knowing how to dance, and being told that a Lord can dance like a bear and still be admired for his grace by the locals! We were promised a depiction of feudal feelings and we're getting it. What a ball!
And the angry Squire selling off his son Osborne's hunting horse. Osborne's favorite activity we're told. How can that be? I've gotten the impression that he is not an outdoors man. He's bookish and shortsighted, we've been told. There's a delightful mystery around every corner in this book. The secret surrounding Preston is just one of many.
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Can you understand Roger's infatuation with Cynthia? Is it the 'airs and graces' she picked up in France, according to her stepfather Dr Gibson? She seems as bewildered and uncertain as everyone else in this plot.
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I don't want to believe Roger would be attracted by these superficial graces, Jonathan - but is he taken by her beauty - her eyes? Or is there something else about her, something sad or vulnerable...
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Roger is just like most young men, captivated by a beautiful young woman and unable to see beyond the superficial. She is a nice young person, and her pleasant, easy manner makes her more appealing.
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As we go further into the book, I think we will be surprised what the author, Gaskel, considers important to tell us and what not.
Jonathan,
I think you are so right about the confusion of the characters. And, sometimes, I can't remember who is upper or lower class and why they are there.
For instance, what does Preston hold over Clare and Cynthia? And shouldn't their fear have been noticed by Molly and her father?
I must have missed the selling off of Osbourne's favorite hunting horse. Why would the Squire have done than if we hear about Osbourne walking everywhere he goes.
No horses in the illustrations except for Dr Gibson's and I think, the Squire's cob. A "cob" is??? "A cob is a small horse, usually of a stout build, with strong bones, large joints, and steady disposition; it is a body type of horse rather than a specific breed. Historically, in the United Kingdom and, to a lesser extent, the eastern United States, a 'cob' may be a common horse used for everyday riding." Wikipedia partial note on Cobs.
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"Sometimes, I can't remember who is upper or lower class... " Annie
Why do you think that is, Annie? Because the upper class is experiencing the same economic downturn as the lower? I see the upper class clinging to past status and privilege...and some, like Clare, wishing to climb by marrying off her daughter to one of social status.. Doesn't she she notice the Hamleys' reduced circumstances? Why does she encourage such a match?
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In considering the title Mrs. Gaskell selected for the novel, and the title for Chapter 27 - Wives and Daughters, and "Fathers and Sons" - I'm wondering if the significance of the titles lies in the fact that the parents are the class-conscious ones, their children not so much any more. The times they are a-changing?
Clare wants the Hamley status for Cynthia - as wife of the largest land-holder in the county. (This would be Osborne, the elder son, of course.)
What does the Squire want? Why does he rage at the perceived slight when Roger Jr. is invited to lunch with Lord Hollingford, and not himself - or Osborne? We're you surprised at how quickly Roger turned down the invitation?
What is the upcoming election about? Did you find it interesting that Lord Hollingford is no longer interested in getting re-elected, contrary to what the Squire believes...
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'We will be surprised what the author, Gaskel, considers important to tell us and what not.' So true, Annie. She certainly is a challenge to read. So stimulating. Such fun trying to figure out what she is up to. Her mind is always racing, trying to stay ahead of her imagination. Is it any wonder if occasionally the facts contradict each other?
Spoiler Alert! Can anyone guess which of her characters the author is talking about, who says, much farther along in the book: "I am sure all the wise people I have ever known thought it a virtue to have gloomy prognostics of the future. But you're not in the mood for wisdom or virtue, I see; so I'll go and get ready for dinner, and leave you to your vanities of dress."
Selling Osborne's hunting horse. That sent me back to Chapter22, The Old Squire's Troubles. That is the most moving chapter for me. The old squire is distraught, swimming in an ocean of grief and anger, and pride. His wife has died. His firstborn son has let him down. The debts are mounting. Mauvaise honte disturbs his peace. Selling the horses is an economy measure for the squire, but he does so with 'savage pleasure', denying Osborne the pleasure of 'hunting...of which he was passionately fond.' But we've just been told that 'Osborne was still occupied with his books and his writings when he was at home...he was short-sighted and cared little'...about outdoor acitivities, and too fastidious even to have smelly animals about him.
But Squire Hamley is a tough old bird. He will recover.'His predjudices were immovable, his pride was invincible. He's not upper class. He's better than that, as 'head of the oldest family in three counties.
Something sad or vunnerable about Cynthia? asks JoanP. Would Roger be attracted by this? It worked for Molly. And Roger found a sister.
But as Lucy points out, Cynthia is the prettiest, most charming young lady in the room. Roger, who is considered ugly is naturally drawn to beauty.
And isn't that the fate of girls. Some make such wonderful sisters. Some are everyone's sweetheart. Our lives are governed, Gaskell suggests somewhere by either doom or character. She leaves the choice to her characters. Of all the eminent women writers of her times, I would choose Elizabeth Gaskell to take to the ball game.
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I like the relationship Roger and Molly have, she gets him, and he gets her. Molly has the insight, that everyone seems to be selling Roger short.
Jonathon, "And isn't that the fate of girls. Some make such wonderful sisters. Some are everyone's sweetheart."
Yes! You are so right about this, I had more boy friends throughout my years in school, who always said I was like having a sister, NO crushes, or inclinations for any of us to see each other on any different level. So I can relate to Molly, Osborne and Roger. Unfortunately, that sister relationship puts you in the position of hearing about all the guys crushes and problems with their "sweethearts." But like myself, Molly will find her prince charming. (I'm not giving up on Coxe)
Spoiler Alert! Can anyone guess which of her characters the author is talking about, who says, much farther along in the book: "I am sure all the wise people I have ever known thought it a virtue to have gloomy prognostics of the future. But you're not in the mood for wisdom or virtue, I see; so I'll go and get ready for dinner, and leave you to your vanities of dress."
I'm going to take a stab at this and say it's the squire, speaking to Osborne. Osborne is so conscious of his dress, and seems very vain. And it sounds like a wise old man, speaking of his experience of lessons learned in life.
Ciao for now~
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Mmm...Osborne is a good guess, Bella - but since he's taken, I'll guess one of my favorites, Molly's father, Doctor Gibson, Jonathan. Tell, me, have you finished the book? If so, will have to take that into consideration when reading your posts...
I'd forgotten Mr. Coxe, I think Molly has too, as she seems to be exhibiting feelings for Roger as she watches Roger become more involved with Cynthia. I wouldn't be surprised if Mrs. Gaskell doesn't bring Molly and Roger together before The End.
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The Squire is outraged when Roger is invited to the Towers with Lord Hollingford, but Roger didn't seem to think it was a big deal...and sent his regrets. I liked that about Roger - it indicated that he has no desire to take Osborne's place on his father's estate...though he does want to help both Father and brother.
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Of all the eminent women writers of her times, I would choose Elizabeth Gaskell to take to the ball game.
Jonathan, because she's your sister?
Who would you take to the ball?
Is Lord Hollingford off limits? Too upper class. A widower with two young sons. I'm a little surprised Clare hasn't tried to initiate something there. But perhaps he's out of reach.
(I'm still here, but behind in my reading)
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JoanP.,
"I'd forgotten Mr. Coxe, I think Molly has too, as she seems to be exhibiting feelings for Roger as she watches Roger become more involved with Cynthia. I wouldn't be surprised if Mrs. Gaskell doesn't bring Molly and Roger together before The End.
I've never let Coxe leave my mind, he is the reason for Gibson having to see Molly, more than his little girl, the awakening of her entering young womanhood. Coxe is the reason Molly had to go to the Hamley's, allowing her to form these wonderful friendships, he is also the reason Gibson decided it's time to remarry. Coxe is an integral part of the entire story. Molly has forgotten Coxe, she has NO idea he wrote the letter, and had this love for her, so I suspect Gaskell will bring him back, an accomplished doctor, and Molly will then notice him in his own right, and then learn about the letter. If Coxe truly loved Molly, he is not going to go away and give up, but he had to go take care of his sick relative. It shows he is a good guy. I keep thinking of Mr. Darcey and Elizabeth, the letter of his declaration of love Darcey leaves on the table, was the turning point, that brings the two together. Gaskell has her own style, but I can't help but feel Austen in this story.
Now, your idea of bringing Molly & Roger together in the end, is a possibility, but that seems too likely.
Roger is a good guy, he wants to please his father and help his brother become successful. He cares for Molly, because she was so very close, kind, caring and loving to his mother. Gaskell keeps using the word "sister" for the feelings Roger has for Molly. She could be deflecting us. Gaskell is all over the place. AND....she is proving to be a Rubik's cube with this story...just when you think you have it figured out, you realize something is not lined up. I say this with utmost respect for her, she is keeping her readers alert and guessing.
My guess for the Jonathon's quote was "the squire" saying this to Osborne. I did think about Gibson saying it to Clare, but then that would indicate they would have some problems in their marriage, because it sounds a bit judgemental and critical, don't you think?
I couldn't bring myself to read ahead. I love surprises, and mysteries, and I like the anticipation of turning each page, and discussing things as they are happening. Plus, I would have a different attitude if I knew what already is ahead of the assigned chapters. So now, I must go read the next three chapters. I had yet another rough day, with the crying colic baby girl. I pray she grows out of this soon.
Ciao for now~
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pedln[/b,
Is Lord Hollingford off limits?
Now isn't that an idea! He sure was smitten with Molly at the ball, and had nothing but praise and compliments for her. He was so very impressed with Molly's intellectual mind, and her informed knowledge of so many books, and the such. She did enjoy him as well. But isn't he a bit too old for Molly? Hmmm.....I'm not sure I am ready to give up on Coxe just yet. I am a hopeless romantic. :-[
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Molly does seem to be the central character in the book, doesn't she? Involved with every character, one way or another. Lord Hollingford, his sister, Lady Harriet, the Hamleys - everyone finds her delightful. I've forgotten what Mr. Preston thought of her. Probably nothing.
The chapter titles were a bit puzzling to me...who are the RIVALY in chapter 28? Roger and Osborne? Mr. Preston and Osborne? Not Molly and Cynthia?.. But who? Why did Mrs. G chose "Rivaly" for this chapter?
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As you, JoanP, I couldn't find any reason for the title of "Rivalry" either.
She might have thought of using that wonderful word "Alnaschar". It maybe could fit and it has two meanings which would give the characters different reasons for the actions and thoughts. It means:
Answer
Alnaschar refers to someone who dreams of the wealth or someone who gets wealth from the sale of his glassware. This term can also mean a beggar in the Arabian Nights who destroys his livelihood by indulging in visions of riches and grandeur.
Can't decide what the author meant when she used this word. Anyone else want to take a shot??
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Earlier this week, someone asked what Squire Hamley needed to improve his management. I know!! He needs Tom from "Downton Abbey" Well, maybe, Roger would do a better job than Osborne. And didn't we read that Roger was more interested in the care of Hamley Estate and rode with his father as the father traveled around the property?
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I was thinking of Downton Abbey too, when we were talking about how unfit Osborne would be to run the estate. 100 years before the Downton series when "Wives" takes place, I'm guessing land could still support an upper class life style if money is managed carefully, but we've already seen what a poor money manager Osborne is.
" I keep thinking of Mr. Darcey and Elizabeth, the letter of his declaration of love Darcey leaves on the table, was the turning point, that brings the two together." Are you talking about Anne and Captain Wentworth in Persuasion?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
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You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 4 Feb.2-Feb.11
Feb.2 - Feb.8}
Chapter 31. A Passive Coquette
Chapter 32. Coming Events
Chapter 33. Brightening Prospects
Chapter 34. A Lover's Mistake
Chapter 35. The Mother's Manoeuvre
Chapter 36. Domestic Diplomacy
Chapter 37. A Fluke, And What Came Of It
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Some Things to Think About
Feb.2-Feb.8 Chapters XXXI-XXXVII
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER XXXI. A Passive Coquette
1. At the ball, we saw that Cynthia disliked Mr. Preston. Why does she now enjoy his attentions?
2. Preston’s loyalty to his employer makes him want to “scatter his enemies”. What is the reference?
3. What shows us a change in Squire Hamley's attitude toward Roger?
CHAPTER XXXII. Coming Events
1. It's important that Osborne's coming child be legitimate. Do his two marriages to Aimée sound like something that would stand up in court? Is it overcautious for Roger to make them marry again?
CHAPTER XXXIII Brightening Prospects
1. Roger’s tutor says that Roger’s success is only half owing to his mental powers, and half to his perfect health, which enabled him to work harder without suffering. Does this make sense? How does it fit in with ideas of the time?
CHAPTER XXXIV A Lover's Mistake
1. What is the mistake?
2. Is a marriage between Roger and Cynthia likely to be happy?
3. On her walk, Molly wonders if she should call her stepmother’s untruthfulness to her father’s attention. Would this be a good idea?
4. Cynthia says: “or some one else may turn up and say I’m engaged to him”. What’s that about?
CHAPTER XXXV The Mother's Manoeuvre
1. Should Mrs. Gibson have realized how seriously wrong it was to act on the information she overheard by eavesdropping?
2. Mr. Gibson finally has to face up to his wife's character. How will he handle this?
3. Why is it so important to Cynthia to keep her engagement secret?
CHAPTER XXXVI Domestic Diplomacy
1. What do you think of the games Mrs. Gibson and Cynthia are playing over whether they will lunch with Squire Hamley?
2. What is Mr. Gibson's attitude toward the possibility of Molly marrying?
CHAPTER XXXVII A Fluke, And What Came Of It
1. What is the fluke?
2. For a second time a young man has turned his attention from Molly to Cynthia. Does Molly mind?
3. Why is Molly so unhappy this winter?
4. Mr. Preston continues to seem sinister. What is going on?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net),
PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), ADOANNIE (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
'I wish Roger was here...He's not the eldest son, but he'd take an interest in the estate; and he'd do up these weary accounts for me...I wish Roger was here!'
That's the squire's lament at the end of Chapter 22. And Roger, we've been told, does make the rounds of the estate with his father, if only to find new things of nature. Flora and fauna.
Bellamarie say she's a hopeless romantic and loves surprises and mysteries. This is the book for you. And for me. And for Molly. She admits to looking for a real love story. Is she the central character in the book? She's always there, isn't she, JoanP? Sometimes I think of her as another reader, like all of us. I'm far along in the reading, just too curious, so I should be careful about what I say. I still pick Clare as the hero, despite all the nasty things said about her. However there are surprises and mysteries all along, as far as I have read. And I find that rereading leads to fresh surprises. And more mystery. This author is fun to be with. All over the place. But who wouldn't be, dealing with so much hopeless romance. I never knew there were so many roadblocks put in the way of true love in Victorian England.
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The estate where Downton Abbey is filmed and many other great English estates have been opened for public viewing for a fee, a means of making money, which their owners say is necessary if they are to survive. Of course this hadn't been thought of in Mrs. Gaskell's day.
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Jonathan, I wonder just what Roger can do to save the estate, no matter what his good intentions or careful management. The Hamleys' estate needs so much work...and capital - the land is going to ruin. There is no money to maintain the land or to pay anyone to help. (Roger is supporting Osborne's wife with half of his Fellowship money. Can't help with the estate too.)
Lucy, I don't think anyone would pay to tour the Hamley Estate, even if Roger had come up with the idea. :D
Annie, I reread the Rivalry chapter to read "Alnachar" in context. Don't you wonder if Mrs. Gaskell's readers were familiar with the terms she uses...and the many literary references? Either this woman is very well-educated or very well-read. I can't decide which, can you?
Looking at the context, I'd say she was referring to "someone who dreams of the wealth or someone who gets wealth from the sale of his glassware"...in this case, Mrs. G. was dreaming of the wealth from the sale of her glassware daughter to the weathy Mr. Hollingworth when he came to visit Molly again...her bait would have been Cynthia. He never came so that dream is out the window. Better stick to Osborne...
I'm thinking now that the Rivalry described by this title refers to the rivalry between Osborne and Mr. Preston for Cynthia's attention...over those nosegays. I cringed again at Mrs. Gibson's treatment of Roger...fearing that an attachment might grow between Roger and Cynthia in Osborne's absence. If anything, her terrible words she uses to describe him can only make Cynthia come to his defense...and can't you just feel their effect on Molly?
The title of the next chapter - "Bush-Fight," I gather is the fight between Roger and Mr. Preston over the accusation of trespassing on to the Hamley land. Now we have the animosity between Roger and Mr. Preston, which is even stronger than that which exists between Osborne and Mr. Preston.
The plot thickens!
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Does this book have a plot? The question came to me when I read Lucy's post of a few days ago. She couldn't remember a plot from a reading some years ago. I took that as a statement about the nature of the narrative. I find the book unique. But 'the plot thickens' is an apt phrase, JoanP, and does describe what's happening. What interests me about the book, as much as anything, is the mind of Mrs Gaskell. I would like to find a biography. Can anyone suggest one?
'Either this woman is very well-educated or very well-read. I can't decide which, can you?'
Good question. Certainly well read. My book is very thoroughly edited. A lot of work went into finding a source for the many allusions and unusual phrases. As an example it's interesting how Gaskell treats death scenes. No long, drawn-out deathbed scenes, but short, moving phrases that touch ones soul.
Silas, the dying gamekeeper asks to see his lord and master, Squire Hamley. The squire goes out, has the terrible confrontation with Preston, lashes himself into an impotent rage, then goes to the cottage, where Silas lies dying.
'So they went to the cottage, the squire speaking never a word, but suddenly feeling as if lifted out of a whirlwind and set down in a still and awful place
I remember being struck by Gaskell description of Mrs Hamley's death in a few choice words:
' - the end came. Mrs Hamley had sunk out of life as gradually as she had sunk out of consciousness and her place knew her no more.'
The editor found a source for that in the Book of Job 7: 10. For the Squires 'awful place', the editor drew a blank while suggesting a biblical source. Why, I wonder, didn't he try 'out of a whirlwind'? That's a very biblical phrase.
What a succinctness to describe these solemn events, but so much to say about all the life she finds in the little town of Hollingford. Which is as it should be, I suppose.
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JoanK., I was speaking of Mr. Darcey and Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice. Remember he leaves her a letter on the table, she reads it and it makes his feelings for her, and everything else clear to her. That is what brought them together at last. It is my favorite Austen book!
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These three recent chapters has me befuddled. I feel like this story is getting dragged out much too long. We all are aware that Preston has something he is holding over Clare and Cynthia and possibly Harriet. We know Roger is smitten with Cynthia and that Osborne is married, and NOW Aimee is pregnant. It is taking Gaskell an awfully long time with repetitive scenes, making me a bit bored with all of this. So Osborne's poems have been rejected, how much longer does he intend to leave his now pregnant wife waiting? How much longer til Roger professes his love for Cynthia and gets to find out if she indeed is available, when does Molly finally get to have someone giving her attention, and when are we going to learn Preston's secret. For all the stitching Clare has done, I would imagine she could have made a bedspread by now. Does she sit in her chair from sun up to sun down stitching?
I was abhorred at the visual, of the squire ready to give Preston a thrashing for his rudeness. This new generation seems to be fancy free, and not adhere to rules or etiquette. Someone mentioned this was a story of manners. I think it's more a lack there of. Roger is coming all hours of the morning, afternoon and night without an invitation, Clare is horribly rude to Roger, when she could simply use her manners with him. The servants are taking liberty and not using respect or manners with the owners of the estates, and the Duchess and the Towers people come to the ball terribly late, around midnight. The way Preston spoke to the squire would have been unheard of. I did feel sorry for the squire and Roger for the way they were not given any respect.
I don't watch Downtown Abby, but I see you who do are making comparisons. Are the younger generations as rude to their elders?
An entire chapter about the nosegays, seemed a tad bit much. I would assume Mrs. Gaskell is not only well educated, but also well read. I know her book North and South was very popular and the television mini series was a big hit! I guess I just feel she is taking way to long to get this story moving along at this point in the book. I would like to see more progress and action.
Jonathon, "Does this book have a plot?"
I am beginning to wonder that same question.......
Ciao for now~
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I think the fact that this novel was published serially accounts in part for its rambling structure. People who were eagerly waiting to read one chapter at a time and didn't have much to read or much entertainment didn't mind being sent into various twists and turns and didn't see the novel as a single structure which needed details building to a climax and resolution of that climax. Even modern novels are not necessarily very clear in direction. The Husband's Secret, which was so enthusiastically recommended to me, I am having a hard time getting a grip on. It jumps all over different time periods with different groups of characters.
Note that Preston has learned to shrug and raise his eyebrows in France. Did he spend time with Cynthia in France or maybe follow her into France? These gestures of course further anger the squire.
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Lucy, your reminder that Mrs. Gaskell's story first appeared in serialized form goes a long way to explain the rambling nature of the novel - and Bella's desire to stay with the plot line. One observation...the detailed issues Gaskell describes must have been of great interest to her readers. These changes she writes about were affecting a great number of people, both socially and economically. Perhaps they were as interested reading of these matters as they were of the plot!
Another thought - wouldn't a film adaptation tighten things up..and stay with the plot? (Yes, I do believe there is a plot here. :D)
I was pleasantly surprised to learn there was a TV mini- series on Masterpiece in 1999. Husband says we probably watched it. Do you remember it? He loves Francesca Annis, who played Clare. We just ordered it on Netflix - three discs! Here 's one review...don't worry, there are no spoilers...expect for the fact that Mrs. Gaskell died before completing her novel...but we knew that...
"The BBC is well known for its high quality costume dramas and this is one of the best in recent years. Elizabeth Gaskell is not an author that I was familiar with except for her usually being known as 'Mrs. Gaskell', which immediately makes her work offer the prospect of being a bit staid. Well not a bit of it! This production is intelligent, witty and thoroughly charming throughout. When it was shown as a serial, I couldn't wait for the next episode! Every member of the cast is exceptional, but special praise for Justine Waddell and Francesca Annis. I defy anybody not to become thoroughly involved in the story of Molly and her family/friends. Elizabeth Gaskell never finished the novel, sadly dying before its completion, but I feel certain that she would have wholeheartedly approved of the BBC's ending which is absolutely heartwarming."
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I totally missed Mr. Preston's French shrug, Lucy.Clever way to put Mr. Preston and Cynthia together in a location other than the Tower, if that turns out to be. What IS the secret?
Mrs. Gaskell has created a character easy to hate...to identify as the villain in the piece, no? Is she portraying Mr. Preston as the new Liberal Whig who regards the old titled landowner with disdain, whose time has passed? Or is he envious of those with status? Can't decide.
I don't see Roger as a defender of " the Old Ways" as described in the title of chapter 30 - but rather a son, demanding his father be treated with respect by the younger Mr. Preston, because of his age.
I'm amused at the situation Gaskell is developing...Mr. Preston is loyal to the Whig views of his employer, Lord Hollingford, enjoying his position managing his land - looking down on the Hamleys - while Roger continues to grow in Lord Hollingford's esteem. Love it!
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Why look for a plot? Just enjoy. Do we look for a plot in Don Quixote? Or in Dante's Divine Comedy? I believe Gaskell's purpose in this novel goes beyond plot. This is her attempt at seeing a human comedy, including the tragedy. And she was, after all, a feminist. And she was a member of that gang that included Dickens and Wilkie Collins whose aim was to 'keep 'em laughing, keep 'em crying, keep 'em waiting'.
Gaskell adds one more: 'make 'em angry'. Telling you more would be a spoiler. Read on.
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Jonathon, No fair!!! You have read way ahead if not already completed the book, so you can dangle the carrots in front of us knowing things we don't.
Gaskell adds one more: 'make 'em angry'.
She has indeed aroused a bit of frustration in me, almost to the point of anger, due to her lengthiness of this story. The humor left chapters ago, the "keep em waiting" has almost gotten me disinterested.
Gaskell has NO single plot, she has various sub plots, that I expect, but am not convinced, will tie in together in the end. Or not. Lucy, reminding us these were series, makes me wonder if indeed that is why the book goes on and on and on, in my opinion a bit repetitive and much to do about nothin, as the saying goes, she keeps the income coming in, and the readers wanting more, sort of like a Soap Opera.
JoanP., I don't see Roger as a defender of " the Old Ways" as described in the title of chapter 30 - but rather a son, demanding his father be treated with respect by the younger Mr. Preston, because of his age.
I completely agree. I saw Roger chastising Preston for his rudeness, and lack of respect for the elder squire. I felt sad for the squire.
Ciao for now~
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The medicines available to this era are self limiting, aren't they? As Cynthia is offered "a sweet emulsion that will hide the bitters", she says she prefers the bitters without the sweetness. And after taking them for a few days, Cynthia seems to be recovering from "sorrows and cares". I am curious about bitters and what exactly they are expected to do.
I am thinking they had medication to help with depression. Did you notice Mr. Gibson also treats Osborne. Their conditions sounded as if they were depressed.
Cynthia saying, " she prefers the bitters without the sweetness" made me think it was her way of saying she wants the bad taste, rather than it taste good. It made me think it is her bad mood, depression she is in. I think after that ball, and how Preston treated her, it would cause her to be depressed. Cynthia is suffering inside, she doesn't feel she deserves, good and happy things, that is why she fusses so much over Molly. It is rather sad. I feel sadness in her.
Ciao for now~
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I’m back from vacation now, and have finally caught up with both the reading and all your good comments. Now we’re starting a new section, full of Mrs. Gaskell’s twists and turns.
For those of you without chapter headings or numbers, 31, A Passive Coquette, starts just after the fight between Preston and the Hamleys, with a lengthy description contrasting Preston’s social life in Hollingford with that of his predecessor.
In the last chapter of this section, 37, A Fluke, and What Came of It, Mr. Coxe reappears, and the chapter ends with a discussion between Molly and Cynthia about Roger.
I’ve put up new questions, but with so many plot twists, the questions for the later chapters can’t help being spoilers, so you might want to read the section first.
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PatH, I've been away from my computer due to not feeling well and I wanted to leave a message for LucyLbr about estate managers in England. Its an interesting history which was taught later as a college degree. That's why William, Duke of Cornwall, is returning to school taking classes to educate him about estate management.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Estate_Management (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Estate_Management)
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Lucy should see it here.
Take care of yourself, Annie, and get better as fast as you can.
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Yes, take care of yourself and rest, Annie We're missing you.
Yikes, Path...I thought I was all caught up, read the first seven chapters, but I drew a blank on the first question. Memory loss!
1. At the ball, we saw that Cynthia disliked Mr. Preston. Why does she now enjoy his attentions?
How could I forget that Cynthia is actually enjoying the company of that terrible, bullying man?
I'm going to fix some chicken wings - then reread Chapter 31 and join you this afternoon when I refresh my memory!
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I have the same problem. The book is so rich in detail, and the story loops around so, that sometimes I lose my way. Rereading goes fast, though.
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I get it! After rereading Chapter 31, I see that Mr. Preston is stalking poor Cynthia. He replies to every invitation...unlike his predecessor, Mr. Sheepshanks. At one point in this chapter, Sheepshanks asks what the fellow (Preston) is after accepting all invitations - Mrs. Gaskell answers his question - "he went whenever there was a chance of meeting Miss Cynthia Kirkpatrick."
Does she really enjoy Mr. Preston's attention? I think not. I think she is acting. Over-acting perhaps.
What else can she do? Mr. Gibson thinks she is in a mental fever of some kind. Cynthia and Mr. Preston share a secret. He's threatening her with it. Now he's turning up wherever she goes. Oh no, she's not enjoying his attention, but she's responding the only way she knows how. You have to wonder what effect her hyper behavior has on Mr. Preston.
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Good to have you back, Pat. You've provided us with a fine set of questions for the new chapters. I've been pondering the last one from page one: 'What is going on?' Twists and turns. Much ado about nothing. Sort of like a soap opera. Frustration and anger. I enjoy reading about your feelings, Bellamarie. I share some of them. Stay with it. The lives of the wives and daughters do get interesting. And especially the lives of two teenage girls and their romancing. How does a girl make her way in this world? What does it take? What does one need? What are the risks in flirting?
Poor Mr Preston. So madly in love. So are they all. All except the beloved. What is it with all the illness in the story. Do they all die of it in the end? Broken hearts everywhere.
There's some great humor ahead. Great psychological insights into matters of the heart. And maintaining your place in society.
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PatH., Welcome back, you were very much missed as was Annie. I am glad to hear you are feeling a bit better Annie. And ALAS! PatH., has heightened my interest with this....
"In the last chapter of this section, 37, A Fluke, and What Came of It, Mr. Coxe reappears"
I am so excited to read this PatH.! I have all along known Coxe would sooner or later return. I have not yet started the next chapters but am now going to tackle them.
Jonathon, "Poor Mr Preston. So madly in love. So are they all. All except the beloved. What is it with all the illness in the story. Do they all die of it in the end? Broken hearts everywhere."
Oh my gosh......I read this and truly laughed out loud!!! I have wondered this same thing. These young folks get so tired just attending a ball, and God forbid should they experience a disagreeable situation, they get sick at the drop of a hat. Now that is a novel idea, they all die of a broken heart in the end. Bwahahahahhaha....thank you for bringing the humor back.
I am watching the Superbowl, but don't really have a dog in the fight, so to speak, so I guess I will read the next chapters to catch up so I don't see any more spoilers.
Ciao for now~
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Thanks, Annie. I was wondering just what Prince William was up to. Do you think all those royal men are more doers and hands on people than scholars? I believe William found his undergraduate studies difficult and Kate kept him on track. My concern now (as an old lady busybody) is why he can't take his wife and son with him for his course of studies. He may need her again to keep him on track and out of the bars.
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Ludylibr, I think you have William mixed up with Harry. Harry is the heavy party bar goer/drinker. I think both boys have their mother's nature for humanity, and not so much scholars. With their titles and inheritance, I suspect studies are not going to be as important to them as other men. You mentioning Kate keeping William focused in college, is a bit funny, when I think of how he first met her dancing in scantily covered clothes showing more than I would call proper! Speaking of keeping focused, it reminds me of Michelle Obama having to tutor Barrack, and trying to keep him focused. He would show up late for tutoring and not pay attention, and we all know, he admittedly did drugs galore in college. He seems a bit ADDHD with no disrespect intended. Doesn't it seem many 1st Ladies were the driving force behind the successful men in position? ;)
p.s. I guess I did have a dog in that fight in the Super Bowl, seems I won 1st place in our pool!!! I didn't even pay attention to my squares. :-[
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No, I don't have them mixed up. Harry is a bigger partier, but William did his share. But it's good that they are sociable and outgoing and make royalty seem more accessible.
In chapter 31, I didn't think Cynthia enjoyed Preston's company but she is captivated by all the attention she is getting and enjoys it very much. She realizes that she is in demand and the "queen" of the social scene.
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I agree, Lucy. Cynthia needs attention from whatever source.
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hahaha, Bellamarie Look for the spoilers in the book. There are a few. And they're all women. They're more than the driving force. They drive the action.
I can't wait for your reaction when Coxe reappears. It will turn the book around for you. Things begin to get very serious for everyone. I hope it doesn't spoil it for you to hear that there is no ending. Well, it does in a way end with the death of the author. The author of her own misfortune. Just did not leave herself enough heart to go on. And the readers can conclude from that how much of her heart went into this book. Spoilers only work on a very superficial reading of a book such as this. She has painted unforgettable scenes. And the best are yet to come. It just keeps getting more difficult to choose the hero (non-gender). I think in the end I may go with the squire's old horse out in the pasture. He looks like a survivor to me.
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I just placed a hold on the DVD. Five hours! I want to see the old squire allowing his two-year-old grandson to puff on his pipe, with Aimee practically dying of a heart attack.
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Holy Cow! Jonathon more spoilers!!!!! A 2 yr old grandson and Aimee "with" the squire. Egads...I guess I better get reading.
It just keeps getting more difficult to choose the hero (non-gender). I think in the end I may go with the squire's old horse out in the pasture. He looks like a survivor to me.
Hilarious!!! The horse of course! LOLOLOLOLOL I knew Gaskell dies unexpectedly before she completes the book....I just wonder if she knew she had health problems, if she would have carried this story on so long, when it could have been wrapped up so much sooner. I can't wait to get to Coxe's return.....don't tell me.....I hope he is not happily married or my romantic theory is shot! But then, it won't be the first twist and turn for me in this story.
Lucylibr, I suppose all young college boys and girls do their share of partying at that age. I have heard nothing to indicate he has done anything of the such since his marriage, so I think Kate and Prince George are secure while he is away. But then you never know, do you. LOLOL I have followed this royal family since the engagement of Princess Di and Charles and I sense William is a stable, caring, loyal family man, while Harry is still into the party mode. I just hope the best for them all, they have suffered enough disappointment, and tragedy in their young lives. Can you tell I have a special affection for these boys? I have an Ashton Drake Princess Di doll collection and every book about her I could get my hands on. So I suppose I could consider myself a bit of a busy body too. LOLOL What is it about them that fascinated me and still does? I just NEVER cared for Charles or Camille. Ughh....now that is a very dowdy couple indeed. ;D ;D
Ciao for now~
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"Cynthia needs attention from whatever source."
I agree, Pat...to a point. I still don't think she welcomes Mr. Preston's attention. But if there are many dance partners in attendance when they meet, I think she can easily avoid him. I sense she is afraid of him - the "mental fever" Mr. Gibson noticed seems to back this up. She's not a carefree young lady, enjoying the attention from all of the "boys" equally. Jonathan, you sound as if you pity poor Preston. I guess I can too - as long as he doesn't start threatening or bullying Cynthia to gain her affection.
While Cynthia turns into a real extrovert, Molly becomes more and more withdrawn and depressed. Why? It appears to be because Roger, not Osborne, is spending more time with Cynthia. Why does this bother Molly? She knows Osborne is married, so this should come as a relief to her, shouldn't it?
We know Clare much prefers Osborne to Roger - Osborne is the heir to the Hamley estate. Jonathan - is it a fact the Aimee and Osborne had a son? If so, the male child is the heir - right? As long as Osborne can prove they are legally or "officially" married? Is this an issue? What do you think it means? Married in the Church of England? Or just married in England?
I too can't wait for you to catch up to Mr. Coxe's return, Bellamarie - don't want to give anything away until then, but will only say what happened was predictable. :D
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Bella: It's because of their strong family values I thought William would bring his family with him and expose them to new experiences too. Of course the baby is too young to be involved, and with all the security they require it may be just too difficult to relocate.
Now I am getting excited about the story. Luckily I have a snowy day indoors to read, and by the looks of the weather report quite a few days ahead when I won't be going out. I have a concert ticket tonight but will not be able to attend.
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Bellamarie, don't try to read up to that spoiler about the squire. That's WAAAY farther along.
Miscellaneous topics:
In the part we are reading now, we know that Osborne's wife is expecting a child. If it's a boy, he has to be legitimate to be the heir. JoanP, I'm not sure what forms of marriage would be accepted by English law, but they would have to be prepared for the Irish cousins to contest anything that looked slipshod. Osborne seems to have paid little attention to detail here. The French civil marriage sounds OK, but Osborne doesn't even know where the papers are. The marriage done by his friend in the Anglican church in Karlsrühe sounds pretty dubious. The friend probably didn't have legal status to perform marriages in France, and no one knows if he actually filed a record of the ceremony.
The book was almost completely finished when Mrs. Gaskell died, and it seems pretty obvious how it would end. But, given the way she keeps us guessing and shifts and changes, we can't be altogether sure. Her publisher has summarized what Mrs. G told him, which is fairly complete. I rather like the slight uncertainty--don't think it spoils anything.
I like Jonathan's suggestion that everyone is going to sicken and die of a broken heart. ;D Not Cynthia, though; she's a survivor. If she were going to have a broken heart, it would have happened when she was a young child, and "had seen so little of her mother in the days when the little girl had craved for love and found none".
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JoanP.,
I too can't wait for you to catch up to Mr. Coxe's return, Bellamarie - don't want to give anything away until then, but will only say what happened was predictable.
Well, well, well, it was inevitable Coxe would return, but .....I can NOT agree with what happens as predictable! I am a bit disappointed, but not devastated in the direction she took tying up the Coxe part of the book. Coxe is a successful, rich man, but come on, one look at Cynthia and he has decided all his feelings for Molly are null and void. Oh for heaven's sake. I truly had to crack up with Dr. Gibson telling Coxe he is welcome to reveal his feelings to Cynthia, but it will get him no where. Once again, Gibson is shattering poor Coxe's love life. Shame on Cynthia, she is shameless knowing Coxe was falling for her and yet she encouraged him, then speaking so degrading of him. She really does have to be the center of everyone's attention, regardless if she finds them despicable, unappealing, loathing, etc . I loved how Dr. Gibson gave her a real talking to for her actions. Clare and Cynthia have NO scruples or shame.
So poor dear Molly is hopelessly, desperately in love with Roger afterall. She tried so hard to deny her feelings, by calling it a sisterly love for him, but now that he has gone and proposed to Cynthia, and left for parts unknown, she is just heartsick. And to sit back and see Cynthia take advantage of Roger is so hard to witness. Molly and Dr. Gibson sure got a good dose of reality of Clare and Cynthia in these chapters.
So much happened in these chapters. I get the clear impression by Cynthia's chat with Molly, that Preston must have bailed Clare out financially at Ashcombe, and in turn she may have promised him Cynthia's hand in marriage, so this could be the secret they are hiding. Cynthia is repeatedly stating the marriage of her and Roger will not happen, and asks Molly, would it be so awful if she married Preston! Why would she even entertain that thought, and bring it out in the open, if there is NO chance in the world it would happen?
I have to admit, I am very impressed with how Gaskell is beginning to bring closure, and revealing things that shows a possible direction in where she is taking this story. Although, I will be ready to see it take many different twists and turns.....how can it not?
PatH., No fear, I never read ahead, I love the suspense of learning as we go. The legitimacy of the marriage sure does bring a whole new light on the heir to the estate. Roger wants to take care of this whole matter immediately, he does not want loose strings where this is concerned. Roger has such a more logical approach to life matters. He is a doer, while Osborne sits back just doing nothing, but moaning about his situation. What a real disappointment he has turned out to be.
Ciao for now~
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Bella:You have given us good insight into these last chapters by focusing on the important events.
Going back a bit, to the question about Roger's health being the reason for his academic success as much as his mental powers, I at first found this insulting to the character who appears to be the hero of the book, almost unbelievably capable and honest and responsible. In fact, Roger seems almost too good to be true, but I think everything Mrs. Gaskell says about him she believes. But the Victorians had different views about health and sickness than we have. As someone pointed out earlier, they are pale, drawn, tired, after a walk and constantly alert to the affects of weather, diet, and activity on health. They didn't have scientific knowledge of medicine and fell back on these notions to explain vagaries of health. I suspect they were at times just depressed or unhappy about the turn of events in their lives and used health as a way of dealing with them. I don't think the medicine that was given was much good, but they expected it to make them feel better and so it did. Some of it probaly had opium or alcohol in it, which is mood changing and makes one feel better.
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Another question: how does Mr. Gibson handle knowledge of his wife's character? When he finds out that she believes Osborne's life is in danger he confronts her and demands to know where she got this knowledge and if that was the reason she began encouraging Roger's attention to Cynthia. She has seriously betrayed his trust and as husband and wife they must share the same values. But she acts as though it is not so serious, and he realizes that she "either can't or won't see what I mean." But he must guard against such lapses in the future and accepts that he can't change the past. In this scene he is forthright and does the best he can, but later on he is passive aggressive, sarcastic and short tempered with her and unable to forget the wrong she has done. But what can he do? Divorce would be very drastic and maybe not even possible. They could separate and live apart, which I think was sometimes done in this period. But both he and Molly put up with Mrs. Gibson and especially Molly tries to preserve harmony in the household. Isn't that what many people still do? Molly knew long before her father what Clare was really like but said nothing for the sake of maintaining peace. Molly, like Roger, is unbelievably good and long suffering, and they do seem perfect for each other, although I have no knowledge of how the plot is resolved.
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Lucylibr, I agree I think the medicine that was given to these depressed young people was opium, or some sort of mood altering, to snap them out of their melancholy moods. They all sure are fragile people.
The whole chapter on revealing Clare's deceptive, intrusive and manipulative ways, was the straw that broke the camel's back, for Mr. Gibson. He really has done all he could to keep the peace in his home, but after Cynthia flirting with Coxe, and accepting Roger's proposal, when he feels she is not the least bit in love or worthy of either man, was not enough, then he finds Clare has eavesdropped in on his professional conversation with Dr. Nicholl's, and used the information to her own advantage, to make sure Cynthia gets the right heir to the Hamley estate. Mr. Gibson realizes that she and her daughter just are not honest and trustworthy, and now he must live in caution, to make sure Clare never has the opportunity to ever use his medical confidence again. That was pretty shocking, even for me who has always seen Clare as a despicable person. Now Molly and her father realize these two are never going to share their morals and values. I do not ever see a divorce, Mr. Gibson will just go on living with Clare, and probably will never love her, or trust her ever again. He will go about his life as usual, gone away from home and ignoring her pretty much when he is at home.
I agree, Molly and Roger seem perfect for each other, but why do I fear he will die from some sort of fever or disease? Maybe I just am not trusting in Gaskell's judgement, where love is concerned. This book has had more tragedy than happiness....instead of Jane Austen, I am feeling more of Shakespeare now. Ughhh....
Ciao for now~
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How complicated can it get! This book plays havoc with the readers feelings and sympathies. I really appreciate all the insights in your posts. They are all to be pitied. Eventually it all got to be too much for the author herself.
Take, for example, the perplexed stepfather and doctor, and his conclusions about Cynthia:'She is in a mental fever of some kind, thought he to himself. She is very fascinating, but I don't quite understand her.' Cynthia is the passive coquette of the chapter heading, is she not. Can't we see a serious problem in those two words?
Of course I like Mr Preston. He's young and clever. He's a competent manager for Lord Cumnor. We hear of his 'affability, and sociability, and amiability, and a variety of other agreeable 'ilities' '. And 'he went wherever he had a chance of meeting Cynthia Kirkpatrick.'
And two pages along we read about Roger: 'It was only the thought of Cynthia that threw Roger off his balance...he went on seeking Cynthia's sweet company, listening to the music of her voice, basking in her sunshine, and finding his passion in every possible way...he knew it was folly - and yet he did it.'
But Cynthia feels miserable at times. She's not out to 'catch' anyone. She's just being herself. If anyone in the book has feelings of guilt, it's Cynthia.
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'Maybe I just am not trusting in Gaskell's judgement, where love is concerned.'
I just read your glorious post, Bellamarie. Granted, Clare is a very calculating mother and wife. And she tries to do her best with Molly. As for her husband. He's never home when the tough decisions have to be made.
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Jonathon,
'Clare is a very calculating mother and wife. And she tries to do her best with Molly.
I'm not so sure Clare really does try to do her best with Molly. She does what is expected, as long as it does not in any way interfere or deny her own daughter Cynthia, of what she thinks is the "best' and then she considers Molly. I am not saying it's wrong of her to do this, because I do believe a biological mother, will have the natural instincts to want what is best for her own child first and foremost, yet still care for, and want good for her stepchild. IMO Clare just has a defect in her character. In no way is it right for her to listen in on two doctors privileged, confidential, medical conversation, and use that information to her advantage to manipulate her daughter's future. Maybe, you are correct in saying "her best," and this is all she is capable of.
And as for: As for her husband. He's never home when the tough decisions have to be made.
What tough decisions has there been for Mr. Gibson to be there to help make? Clare decides for everyone and that is that! His job as a town doctor keeps him away, while Clare has the luxury of sitting and stitching all day, and manipulating everyone's lives. There just is no acceptable explanation for Clare's behavior.
How complicated can it get! This book plays havoc with the readers feelings and sympathies.
I agree! I find myself in knots trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, or try to have some sympathy for their situation, only for Gaskell to come up with reasons for me to conclude, they do not deserve it. She is one enigmatic writer for sure.
These chapters were jam packed, and I feel like I need to go back and read them once again, yet I fear I will only find myself more frustrated. Gaskell made every effort to show the readers, Mr. Gibson and Molly how untrustworthy, calculating, manipulating, and selfish Clare and Cynthia really are. As far as I am concerned Gaskell left no doubt or leeway for me to want to think either of them are redeemable, regardless of their reasons why they are the way they are. Yet, where Cynthia is concerned I want to care about her. As a mother of a daughter and a grandmother of five granddaughters, one at the age I have seen her have her first infatuation, and her heart be rejected, I want to wrap my arms around Cynthia, hug her, tell her it's okay to open her heart, even if it risks getting broken. (Which is what I have done with my sweet adorable daughter and granddaughter) Although, IF Cynthia, knows her hand has been promised to Mr. Preston, due to him helping out Clare at Ashcombe, she may have closed her heart off for good, knowing it would not be free to be open to love anyone, especially not Preston. AND....IF Preston has this agreement/contract with Clare, it would solidify to me, he is as despicable as Clare.
Jonathon, I know you have read ahead, so I am wondering if your loyalty to Clare, and Preston, are due to the fact you have inside knowledge, to warrant you seeing these two people in a better light? So far, I have no reason to see them as anything other than controlling, and lacking in moral values and character.
I just may need a dose of that medicine, Dr. Gibson is handing out for melancholy, after these chapters.
Ciao for now~
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I just may need a dose of that medicine, Dr. Gibson is handing out for melancholy, after these chapters.
LOL
Poor Mr. Gibson—such irony. He married in part to protect Molly from Mr. Coxe and to give her a mother's good influence as she entered adulthood. So Mr. Coxe promptly leaves, and now he realizes that "the wife he had chosen had a very different standard of conduct to that which he had upheld all his life, and had hoped to have seen inculcated in his daughter." But it isn't high tragedy. He was obviously attracted to Clare for her own sake too, and some of this will remain. Mrs. G. will still keep his house running smoothly, even though not to his taste. And Molly seems to have made her own standard of conduct, mostly based on his, and to be resistant to changing it.
I’m sorry for Mr. Coxe, too. His author is using him for comic relief. When he appears: “He was now rich, though still a red-haired young man.” Mr. Gibson is touched by him, gives him a fair chance, while hoping that “Molly would not be such a goose as to lend a willing ear to a youth who could never remember the difference between apophysis and epiphysis.” He’ll do all right, though. He’s warmhearted and rich, and can surely find another woman to love.
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Earlier, you suggested Mrs. Gaskell may be writing a novel of manners, Lucy. At the halfway point, I am inclined to agree. The humor- as in the examples PatH just described, keeps me from anticipating "high tragedy" - with pain and suffering (even death) the result. There is a lot of illness, yes, but there are no wonder drugs, no penicillin - or serotonin at this time. Dr. Gibson seems quite competent - observant, cautious and wise. Is Mrs. Gaskell using this character to convey her views?
I'm just enjoying the story, as Mrs. Gaskell chooses to reveal it in - in installments, confident that she will provide surprises - couched in her dry humor, in each one - with no real disaster on the horizon.
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"Why is it so important to Cynthia to keep her engagement secret?"
It appears that the more people know, the news of the engagement will reach the person...or persons she does not want to know about it. Can't decide if this is because she fears Mr. Preston's discovery...or if she cares for someone else, though Mrs. Driscoll goes out of her way to indicate that Cynthia is unable to care for anyone. (How can we refer to this poor girl as a "survivor"? if there is a tragic figure here, I think it will be Cynthia - unless Mrs. Driscoll decides to redeem her at the end.)
She really doesn't see herself marrying Roger, does she? How quickly will these two years go by?
Bellamarie, I'm unable to find the conversation in which Cynthia asks Molly about her interest in marrying Mr. Preston. You'd think I'd remember that! Can you point me to it?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
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You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 4 Feb.2-Feb.11
Feb.2 - Feb.8}
Chapter 31. A Passive Coquette
Chapter 32. Coming Events
Chapter 33. Brightening Prospects
Chapter 34. A Lover's Mistake
Chapter 35. The Mother's Manoeuvre
Chapter 36. Domestic Diplomacy
Chapter 37. A Fluke, And What Came Of It
Feb. 9-11}
Chapter 38. Mr Kirkpatrick, Q.C.
Chapter 39 Secret Thoughts Ooze Out
Chapter 40. Molly Gibson Breathes Freely
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Some Things to Think About
Feb. 9-11 Chapters XXXVIII-XL ~ (to Mrs. Gibson's return from London)
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER XXXVIII. Mr Kirkpatrick, Q.C
A new character! Why is he introduced now? Why Mr. Kirkpatrick's sudden interest in his niece?
Why does Cynthia not want to visit with his family in London?
Molly, this awkward at 18, breaking teacups, etc? Is this how you've been seeing her?
Can you cite some examples of Mrs. Gaskell's humor in this chapter?
CHAPTER XXXIX. Secret Thoughts Ooze Out
Whose opinion do you trust more, Dr. Gibson's, or Dr. Nicholl's?
Why? Does Molly fear that Osborne is deathly ill?
How do Molly and Mrs. Gibson's concerns differ concerning Osborne's health?
Now the squire knows of Roger's engagement and has met Cynthia, what does he think of her?
Would he feel differently if he knew Osborne was ill?
CHAPTER XL Molly Gibson Breathes Freely
With Mrs. Gibson and Cynthia off to London, do you feel you get to know Molly better?
Is Cynthia's goodness what Roger loves about her?
Would his feelings for her would change, no matter how terrible her secret?
Does Cynthia appear to be blaming her mother for her own past behavior?
Does it occur to Molly that it was Cynthia in the lane with Mr. Preston?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net),
PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), ADOANNIE (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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JoanP., pg. 468 "Cynthia, what makes you dislike Mr. Preston so much?" "Don't you? Why do you ask me?, and yet, Molly, "said she, suddenly relaxing into depression, not merely in tone and look, but in the droop of her limbs_ "Molly, what should you think of me if I married him after all?"
"Married him! Has he ever asked you?" But Cynthia, instead of of replying to this question, went on, uttering her own thoughts. "More unlikely things have happened. Have you never heard of strong wills mesmerizing weaker ones into submission? One of the girls of Madame Lefebre's went out as a governess to a Russian family, who lived near Moscow. I sometimes think I'll write to her to find me a situation in Russia, just to get out of the daily chance of seeing that awful man!"
"But sometimes you seem quite intimate with him, and talk to him__" "How can I help it?" said Cynthia, impatiently. Then recovering herself, she added: "We knew him so well at Ashcombe, and he's not a man to be easily thrown off, I can tell you. I must be civil to him; it's not from liking, and he knows it is not, for I've told him so. However, we won't talk about him. I don't know how we came to do it, I'm sure: the mere fact of his existence, and of his being within half a mile of us, is bad enough. Oh! I wish Roger was at home, and rich, and could marry me at once, and carry me away from that man! If I'd though of it, I really believe I would have taken poor red-haired Mr. Coxe."
"I don't understan it at all," said Molly. "I dislike Mr. Preston, but I should never think of taking such violent steps as you speak of, to get away from the neighborhood in which he lives." "No, because you are reasonable little darling," said Cynthia, resuming her usual manner, and coming up to Molly, and kissing her. "At least you'll acknowledge I'm a good hater!" "Yes. But I don't understand it."
"Oh, never mind! There are old complications with our affairs at Ashcombe. Money matters are at the root of it all. Horrid poverty_ do let us talk of something else!"
#4. Cynthia says: “or some one else may turn up and say I’m engaged to him”. What’s that about?
So, I am assuming that Clare has promised Cynthia to Preston, for what ever money matters he helped her out with at Ashcombe. Preston is aware of the fact Cynthia does not like him, yet he is holding her to the contract, Clare and he obviously made. IMO
Yes, Cynthia wants the engagement to be a secret to keep Preston from finding out. And as you can see, I believe Cynthia would rush and marry before Preston could know of it, to put a stop it. My first suspicion, was when Molly told Preston that Cynthia was coming home, and he assumed she would be living at Ashcombe. WHY would he assume that, knowing Clare was married to Mr. Gibson? That always puzzled me. But Mrs. Gaskell drops crumbs along the way, we just have to be alert to them, because some are very subtle.
Ciao for now~
p.s. We are once again getting hit with at least a foot of snow here in Toledo, Ohio. Level 3 snow emergency, so NO daycare kids for me today! I can't read ahead in the book, so how will I enjoy an unexpected day off to myself?
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Poor red-headed Mr. Coxe
What's wrong with red-headed men, anyway? It's comic in Mr. Coxe, but Clare and Cynthia are both red heads, and in them it's thought of as attractive.
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Why is Molly so unhappy?
"...independently of any private sorrow that she might have in her own heart," she is aware of the discord between her father and his new wife. At times she had been glad that he was happy, and other times she wished his eyes were open to his wife's defects of character. But now that her shortcomings and serious violations of trust are known to him, he is "sarcastic, hard, even bitter in his speeches and ways" with his wife, sometimes with Cynthia, and even occasionally Molly. This makes for unpleasantness in the home which Molly is very sensitive to.
She is so sensitive and caring of other people, at times she feels sorry for Mrs. Gibson and in secret takes her stepmother's part. Such treatment would devastate Molly, but Clare is somewhat deaf to it and glosses over it with the offer of a special meal and a nod to his feeling a "little put-out today." And she knows that there is no chance of her stepmother changing, "so the only attempt at a remedy was to think about it as little as possible."
Molly is distressed by Cynthia's careless disregard and indifference for Roger, shown by her not being concerned that she is too late for sending mail to him that day. She simply does not think Cynthia cares enough for him, and if she had been in Cynthia's place, her love for him would have been full of tenderness and gratitude for everything he shared with her. Molly is anxious to get from Cynthia news and details of what he is doing. Cynthia is not sure where Abyssinia is nor can she make out the next word describing his location. She is sure Roger is recovered from a fever without nursing, having brought quinine with him. She is determined not to "worry myself with useless anxiety, when he is away." It will be too late anyway if she were to hear anything dire about his state. Says Cynthia, "Lovers' letters are so silly, and I think this is sillier than usual."
And even Roger said once that he knew his infatuation with Cynthia was "folly." I think we will see this theme delveloped in favor of a more lasting and mature kind of love. But Molly is haunted by thoughts of Roger lying ill and alone in strange lands and treasures his comments about books and would love to hear about his research and travels I think.
Mrs. Gaskell remains concerned about matters of health and uses them to support her portrayal of characters and events. She reminds us that in addition to these reasons for Molly's low spirits, she "was not of strong health, and perhaps that made her a little fanciful." She sobs herself to sleep thinking of Roger. When a person is unhappy, you can always say they are ill, but maybe they are unhappy because they are ill. Ill health can account for and is simultaneous with negative states of mind.
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Molly genuinely cares for others well being and happiness. She has a heart of gold. She sees people's flaws and yet wants to hope the better part of the person will prevail. I see these young people being depressed, because emotionally, they are living in situations which do not make them happy, yet they live to please the elders, or because they are at a point, where they feel they are unable to make their lives better, for what ever the circumstances are. Osborne is not helping himself sitting and brooding, Cynthia is bound to a secret with Preston, Molly is keeping others secrets, and is in denial of her true love for Roger, the squire feels everything crashing down upon him since Mrs. Hamley has died, and Mr. Gibson is overwhelmed with all the female hormones in his home!!! Clare reminds me of Scarlet O'Hara....I'll think about that tomorrow attitude. Mama Mia! It's about time this story takes a turn to help all these people get their lives back on track and be happy.
Unhappiness leads to stress, and vice versa, which can bring about many types of real medical conditions.
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"hoping that “Molly would not be such a goose as to lend a willing ear to a youth who could never remember the difference between apophysis and epiphysis.”
Molly might just be a little goose. Wasn't 'Goosey' her father's term of endearment for her as a child? And what high standard of conduct did he ever pass on to Molly? He left that to others, to Betty, the frightful dragon. And now to her stepmother.
I don't know if I can agree with you, Bellamarie, when you say: "Molly genuinely cares for others well being and happiness." That was a bit of advice she got from Roger, early on, to help her over a little problem she was having with her father's engagement to Clare. He seemed so wise. Wasn't there something about making a Pope out of him.
What a wonderful contrast in personality and character, between Molly and Cynthia. Early in the Passive Coquette chapter:
'Molly was always gentle, but very grave and silent. Cynthia, on the contrary, was merry, full of pretty mockeries, and hardly ever silent...could never hold her tongue, too pretty, too witty, welcomed by those who were under her sway.'
The young men all fall for her. She has difficulties handling all the marriage proposals. And Molly? Perhaps the chapter should have been The Goose and the Coquette. The coquette has no heart to be broken. And the goose really knows nothing about love.
I'm not sure either, that Clare's use of confidential information was a serious violation of trust. The girls need husbands. She wants the best for both. The health of someone could be a significant factor. It never occurred to me that those governesses in Russia were running away from something.
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It is indeed a wonderful contrast between the two girls. It's interesting that they can be such good friends. Cynthia loves Molly as much as she is capable of, and Molly loves Cynthia back.
There is evidence that Molly cared for others before Roger's advice, even if not consciously. Look at the way she has learned to read her father's moods like a book, and her care to be sure he has a meal, with company, when he comes home at odd hours.
One part of Molly's unhappiness that she isn't admitting to herself is how deeply she has fallen for Roger.
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Jonathon,
I'm not sure either, that Clare's use of confidential information was a serious violation of trust. The girls need husbands.
Regardless, of Clare's reasons, she violated her husband's trust, not only because it is his confidential profession, but a husband should be able to trust his wife would never violate his privacy, in such a way she did. She has no scruples. Whether the readers see it a serious violation, or not, Gaskell has made it clear, Mr. Gibson sees it as one. I never cared much for, "The ends, justifies the means."
Jonathon, I don't know if I can agree with you, Bellamarie, when you say: "Molly genuinely cares for others well being and happiness." That was a bit of advice she got from Roger, early on, to help her over a little problem she was having with her father's engagement to Clare. He seemed so wise. Wasn't there something about making a Pope out of him
I have no doubt Molly has a heart of gold. She cared for Mrs. Hamley as if she were her own daughter, before she ever met Roger. She has supported Osborne with his secret, she is a great friend to Roger, not allowing his parents attitudes sway her judgement of him, she is a loving sister to Cynthia, and even tries her best to be caring for a very difficult step mother.
And yes, PatH., There is evidence that Molly cared for others before Roger's advice, even if not consciously. Look at the way she has learned to read her father's moods like a book, and her care to be sure he has a meal, with company, when he comes home at odd hours.
Molly has a genuine heart, and everyone that has met her has commented on what a good caring, person she is. Compliments from the Lord himself after dancing with her, is a testament to Molly's character, and caring heart for others. She is sick, over concern for Roger getting sick, in a far off land, over and beyond the fact that she truly loves him. Roger gave Molly advice as to how to deal with her father getting married, and the fact that she even took his advice, shows how caring she is. She could have been selfish and ignored him. She stays quiet watching her father's unhappiness, being married to Clare, even though it breaks her heart. She longs for her father's attention, his nickname "goosey" and his hugs. Even though he has turned a bit unfeeling after marrying Clare, Molly, does not do anything to draw him to notice her loneliness, for their lost times as father and daughter. She even is kind enough to accept her father cares enough for Cynthia, to takes the time to have that talk he had with Cynthia. Yes, he has passed on strong values to Molly, which shows he is also a very kind and caring person, who has done a great job teaching his daughter these values, without a mother around. Him being a physician, caring for sick people, and also taking apprentices in to help them learn the profession, have been great examples for Molly to see and learn by, without words spoken. They are not perfect, but they both are genuine, kind, caring and want happiness for others.
Gaskell up to this point in the book has done nothing, but show how caring Molly is for others, even above her own happiness.
Ciao for now~
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Isn't this a great psychological study of Molly - and the development of her character from the beginning? I agree with you - she has always always a trusting child, eager to please her father - whose life was dedicated to her care and happiness.. She'd never come into contact with people like Clare - or Cynthia, whose motives are not always what they seem. This is a gradual realization for Molly. No wonder Cynthia is more knowing, more precocious. Look at the difference in the way the two girls have been brought up.
"One part of Molly's unhappiness that she isn't admitting to herself is how deeply she has fallen for Roger."
Oh yes, Pat! Roger is her friend - Cynthia is her sister and her friend - (does she have any others her own age?) ...her friends are engaged to one another! How can she admit her feelings for Roger? Right now it seems the reason for her unhappiness is the way Cynthia is talking and behaving. Does Cynthia love Roger enough? . Molly is not yet admitting her own feelings for Roger - she is too concerned about his getting hurt.
Did you think it a bit odd that she has no other suitors...other than that red haired Mr. Coxe? The good doctor doesn't want to think about such things...she's still his little girl, his little goose.. Remember how the story began?
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'Isn't this a great psychological study of Molly?' It certainly is, JoanP. And what a lot of evidence Bellamarie has come up with to make a case for it. It's all true. Nevertheless, I can't entirely agree with PatH's suggestion: 'One part of Molly's unhappiness is that she isn't admitting to herself is how deeply she has fallen for Roger.'
I'm convinced that her unhappiness is her sisterly concern for Roger's happiness and nothing more. Roger is her 'brother'. She's the daughter and sister in the Hamley family. As for romantic love, it was my impression that Molly had a crush on Osborne at first. The handsome man, the poet, and the darling son of Mrs Hamley. What Molly kept hearing from Osborne's mother must have influenced her. And now, with the narrator influencing her readers, how can we help pairing Molly and Roger.
But it's a great psychological study of the other characters as well. Certainly of Cynthia and her mother. How can one read chapter 35, The Mother's Manoevre, and not feel sorry for Clare? Her violation of her husband's trust is matched by his violation of her confidence. How pathetic he seems when he admits to the squire that he was never home to see what was happening between Roger and the girls. I believe Mr Gibson's bad humor and disappointment was that Roger hadn't picked Molly. The plot thickens. Molly is still a darling little goose, with a lot to learn.
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The violation of trust accusation really turns Clare on. Using overheard conversation to her daughter's advantage is very motherly. She even comes up with a bit of choice medical knowledge for her husband the doctor:
'Perhaps Cynthia might have died if she had been crossed in love; her poor father was consumptive.'
The doctor is skeptical.
'Poor dear Mr Kirkpatrick was consumptive, and Cynthia may have inherited it, and a great sorrow might bring out the latent seeds.'
The note at the back of my book says this: 'the latent seeds: Mrs Gibson, though here being fatuous, would have medical support: tuberculosis often ran in families, and William Buchan noted among its causes 'Violent passions...or afflictions of the mind; as grief, disappointment, anxiety' (Domestic Medicine).
I can't stop laughing at Clare's motherly instincts and resources. We wouldn't want the daughter to let her down, would we? That's possible, with Cynthia.
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But as a wife, she leaves much to be desired?
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Jonathon,
How pathetic he seems when he admits to the squire that he was never home to see what was happening between Roger and the girls. I believe Mr Gibson's bad humor and disappointment was that Roger hadn't picked Molly. The plot thickens. Molly is still a darling little goose, with a lot to learn.
I have to say I think you are being a bit hard on Mr. Gibson. I come from a family of six girls, and one brother, with two female cousins taken in to live with us when my aunt and uncle died. My step father would not have known the least bit of any of our crushes, infatuations or love interests, no matter how much time he was at home. Most fathers do not realize these things, because girls don't share their intimate feelings for boys, with their fathers, if at all, it is their mother who notices and maybe discusses these type of things with their daughters. My sisters, cousins and I, all tried to hide these things from our parents, and discussed them behind closed doors in our bedrooms, just as Molly and Cynthia do. So Mr. Gibson not knowing did not seem the least bit out of the ordinary to me. My husband is the most loving, caring, active father any one could ever wish for, and he didn't have a clue, when our only daughter had crushes etc. She and I were extremely close, and I taught at her school, so I was more aware of things pertaining to who she liked. Although her cousin, who was her best friend, knew all her secrets, she confided in her far more than me.
I think Molly is coming to the realization she cares more for Roger than just a sister, and knowing he could get sick and die, and she may never get to see him again, is causing her enormous stress. She was infatuated with the Osborne, Mrs. Hamley had painted to her. After meeting him, and getting to know him, she cares for his well being and happiness, but never did I get the impression she was even close to being "in love" with Osborne. This love Molly is experiencing for Roger has grown, with her maturing, and realizing Cynthia does not love Roger, and is not worthy to marry him. Molly wants Roger to have someone who will love, and cherish him with all their heart, and she is realizing she could be that very person.
I expect Cynthia will indeed disappoint her mother, which will prove all the manipulations and rudeness Clare has engaged in, will be for naught.
Ciao for now~
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" My sisters, cousins and I, all tried to hide these things from our parents, and discussed them behind closed doors in our bedrooms, just as Molly and Cynthia do "
Bella, I would agree, except Molly has no crush to confide, and Cynthia keeps her feelings to herself, much to Molly's frustration. :D
As to Cynthia's closeness to her own mother, have you noticed that Mrs. Gaskell never lets us in on conversations between these two. If Clare and Cynthia are in on the secret, when - where do they talk about it? This is not a very big house. Do you think they even discuss personal matters for fear of being overheard?
When they do speak in Molly's presence, they seem to speak in a code only they understand...the way they danced around the visit to Hamley Hall, an example? What did you make of that? Cynthia doesn't want to talk to the Squire about the engagement...but Clare?
Let's not be too quick to say Mr. Gibson doesn't know what's going on under his own roof. He notices Cynthia's reticence to visit the squire, which prompts him to ask Molly if Cynthia is worthy of Roger. He's also concerned there might be something between Molly and Osborne.
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I meant to show that girls of their age do most of their conversations in their bedrooms with each other, rather in the open for their parents to know their inner thoughts. Cynthia has shared so very many inner feelings with Molly in their private rooms. Mr. Gibson seemed to become aware of the girls matters more so, once the squire mentions his concerns about his sons, and Gibson's daughters possibly falling for each other. That was an eye opener for Gibson. After dealing with Coxe's letter, I think Gibson felt at ease with not worrying about Molly falling in love, or anyone else falling for her. He really did not realize until the squire brought this up, that it will be inevitable, for Molly and Cynthia, to fall in love and marry one day. Oh how our hearts hate letting go of our children, and seeing they are growing up, and away from us.
Yes, Clare and Cynthia do speak in "code" as you point out JoanP., they desperately do not want anyone else to know their secret about Preston.
Ciao for now~
p.s. Due to snow days, schools are closed so I will have 10 kids in my daycare, with one screaming colic baby, so I can't wait for this day to be over! Anxious to get into the next chapters.
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Roger’s tutor says that Roger’s success is only half owing to his mental powers, and half to his perfect health, which enabled him to work harder without suffering. Does this make sense? How does it fit in with ideas of the time?
This is an example of a growing movement in England in the 19th century, both in religion and the schools. It was important for proper student, or scholar, to be physically strong and fit too—mens sana in corpore sano. I don’t know much about the religious movement—does anybody else?—but the emphasis on sports and physical fitness in the public schools has persisted.
Roger exemplifies this changing notion of what a proper Englishman should be. He relates to another line of thought here too, starting to be important when the book was written. Have you spotted it?
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Bless you, Bellamarie, for keeping your daycare open, when others are closing their doors to the children. And thank you ever so much in helping me to understand the hearts and minds of these two young women. Isn't it the purpose of the author to explore the fortunes of two girls so different in nature? Each has her own idea of love. And you're so right. Very often Mom and Dad are the last to know what the kids are up to. What a shock it must have been for the young Coxe. Discouraged by Molly. Captivated by Cynthia, the girl who is only interested in trophies.
Molly's feelings obviously run deeper. And in different channels'. At the end of chapter 37, A Fluke, with Cynthia sharing the letter from Roger in Africa, suffering a serious illness, Molly prays in her heart: 'O my Lord...grant that he may come home safe, and live happily with her whom he loves so tenderly - so tenderly, O God.'
Does Roger really love her all that tenderly. Molly believes so. The author does not. In fact Gaskell gets sarcastic about Rogers love for Cynthia. All she sees is a young man falling head over heels for Cynthia's charming ways. And this is the young man who took top honors at Cambridge, a very bright guy to deserve Senior Wrangler status. At the end of chapter 33, Brightening Prospects, Roger is caught musing about Cynthia. He wants to tell his love, and then go to Africa for two years. And remain true:
'Then she would know at any rate how dearly she was beloved by one who was absent; how in all difficulties or dangers the thought of her would be a polar star, high up in the heavens, and so on, and so on,; for with a lover's quickness of imagination and triteness of fancy, he called her a star, a flower, a nymph, a witch, an angel, or a mermaid, a nightingale, a siren, as one or another of her attributes rose up before him.'
'And so on, and so on.' Now why did Gaskell add that sarcasm? She must have felt that the reader should be told the truth. Cynthia really is that good. She succeeds without trying. And gets herself into trouble.
In his letter from Africa, Roger writes:'what had he to write about, but his love and his researches. There was no society, no gaiety, no new books to write about, no gossip in Abyssinian wilds.'
The life and the gossip are all back there in Hollingford. Where fools fall so easily into love, or are pushed in to it.
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Just read your post, PatH. That is another angle to explore. The book is certainly a picture of the times in many ways.
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"In fact, Roger seems almost too good to be true." But Gaskell counters that by making him ugly and awkward socially.
The one who seems too good to be true is Molly. She realizes that she loves Roger, and he wants to marry Cynthia, who will marry him without loving him, yet she doesn't feel any resentment? We are resenting Cynthia for her!
But we've all known Cynthias. She is not evil, just a natural flirt who is oblivious to the harm she is doing. Presumably, if she'd had a more sensible mother, she would have taught Cynthia to restrain her behavior.
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Gaskell seems to raise plot twists, and then get rid of them in the middle of the book. We thought Mr. Coxe might be a major character, but he's been summarily taken care of.
Notice that he's below taking seriously because he has red hair! Now, the girls follow my red-haired grandson around!
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PatH., Yes, the times they are a changing, in England, and these young people are throwing all the rules of etiquette out the window! Nothing remotely is recognizable, as in the Austen novels, where etiquette is the focus so much so, it can be restraining.
JoanK., I agree, you think a plot is developing, and POOF! It's gone!! I have decided Gaskell may have had an absolute blast in twisting and turning the plots and characters around. Can you just imagine her sitting there at her desk, giggling as she makes a major change or discrepancy, thinking AHA! I've fooled them again!!
I do keep expecting Molly to sooner or later lose her patience, and kindheartedness, where Cynthia is concerned. She does seem a bit too good to be true to not have an ounce of jealousy. And I do have to admit, I think Gaskell having Cynthia putting so much time and attention on Molly's dress and hair, and not caring about her own, did seem a bit odd, since Cynthia wants to be center of attention at all times.
Jonathon, Cynthia really is that good. She succeeds without trying. And gets herself into trouble.
JoanK., But we've all known Cynthias. She is not evil, just a natural flirt who is oblivious to the harm she is doing. Presumably, if she'd had a more sensible mother, she would have taught Cynthia to restrain her behavior.
Cynthia as the two of you point out does not even have to try, and flirting to the extreme led her to getting a good talking to from Mr. Gibson, where he points out that she could be called something beyond a flirt, if she continues. Hmmm....just what would that be? It sure did upset Cynthia knowing Mr. Gibson was questioning her character.
Ciao for now~
Thank you Jonathon, for the kind words. I survived the day, and God answered my prayers, the colic baby had a perfect day! And I actually allowed two of my grandkids talk me in to spending the night. Now, to get some sleep, get up in the morning, go to two basketball games, and a child birthday party.
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Bellamarie, I'm tired just reading about what you are doing. :)
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I'm so busy today. Just time to read your posts and I'm out of here. The twists and turns are about to end and the drama is about to begin. And the fun comes back. There's method in this author's madness.
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Olympics fever has taken over our house big time...and now a new episode of Doc Martin!
I'd really intended to come in here and ask what you thought about the "fluke" in the last chapter, before we move on to Mr. Kirkpatrick's appearance in Hollingford. I've been thinking about what effect this uncle will have on the story. A little late for a new character, don't you think?
What exactly is a fluke? An unusual happening? Something unexpected? So what was the fluke in this chapter? Mr. Coxe's return to Molly, and then his sudden infatuation with Cynthia? Mr. Gibson is really angry with Cynthia, lecturing her. It should be interesting to see how this chapter connects with the next - Chapter 38, "Mr. Kirkpatrick, Q.C."
Back to Snowboarding - Slopestyle!
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Preston’s loyalty to his employer makes him want to “scatter his enemies”. What is the reference?
Nobody recognized the quote. It's from God Save the King, second verse.
O Lord our God arise
Scatter his enemies
And make them fall.
Confound their politics
Frustrate their knavish tricks
On thee our hopes we fix
God save the King!
It's not much sung now--slightly embarrassing.
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I suppose Mr. Preston considers anyone Cynthia smiles at to be his enemy, PatH? That might include Mr. Coxe...Osborne, but surely not Roger. After reading your post with the lyrics, I found this - they came to be "referred to as the National Anthem at the beginning of the nineteenth century." So Mr. Preston was very familiar with them.
Further, the source...
Psalm 68
A Psalm of David
God shall arise, his enemies shall be scattered;
and those who hate him shall flee before him!
2 As smoke is driven away, so you shall drive them away;
as wax melts before fire,
so the wicked shall perish before God!
3 But the righteous shall be glad;
they shall exult before God;
they shall be jubilant with joy!
What's your guess (no fair if you've finished the book!) Will Mr. Preston scatter his enemies? Will he and Cindy Cynthia marry?
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Cindy??? who is that, Joanp? Her dignity has crashed with that nickname! I can't figure out who Preston's enemies are? Would it be the Squire or Roger or Osborne? And maybe Lady Hariette? Hmmmph!
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Lady Harriet? Mr. Preston's enemy? Roger and Osborne, perhaps, though I don't think he understands that Cynthia and Roger have a relationship. (Annie, how can I explain what my iPad does to names, sometimes. ie Cindy for Cynthia ... :D)
I'd say Mr. P's enemies=all those who might come between a marriage to Cynthia.
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I know what your iPad is doing. It thinks it knows better than you what word you meant, and if you don't notice the little blue alternative it gave you and just hit the space bar, it replaces your word with its own. It's an awful pain--maybe I'll find a way to turn it off.
The enemies in this passage are not Preston's, but Lord Cumnor's: "...he considered it as loyalty to his employer to 'scatter his enemies' by any means in his power." Since this passage occurs right after Preston has had a disagreement with the Squire and Roger, presumably it means the Hamleys. But Preston strikes me as an essentially vindictive type, always ready to get even with anyone he can think of.
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I took Preston's reference to "enemies." at that precise time to be, the squire and Roger, or anyone else that would get in his way, or cause him problems with Lord Cumnor. Preston feels entitled for some reason, as if he is a King!
And now we have the Hollingford sisters revealing, Preston was engaged before and the father had it broken off, and is now engaged to Cynthia! But then it is through way of another person, so now that Molly has assured them it can't be Cynthia, they are going back and forth as to it being Cynthia who was said to be seen, but because Molly has grown as tall and wears the same plaid shawl and bonnet, it could have been a mistake and may have been Molly. Yet, one more of Gaskell's way of leaving the door open, to change her mind later as to who it really is.
My guess is that Cynthia is meeting privately with Preston, giving her allowance money to him, to cover some of his gambling debts, since Gaskell has revealed he has a problem with gambling. So while I personally think it was indeed Cynthia seen with Preston, I am not putting any bets on it. :) A little play on words...hee hee
I thought it was convenient for Gaskell to introduce the Uncle Kirkpatrick so late in the story, as a means to get Cynthia and Clare to London for a whole week, and to throw in the question of where is Cynthia's allowance going. Funny how Molly and her father are like, "While the cat is away, the mice will play." This was a real eye opener as to how very unhappy Clare makes their day to day life, just being in the house.
Jonathon, " There's method in this author's madness."
Well, I will take your word for it since you have read ahead. Have you finished the entire book?
JoanP., I have decided to DVR the Olympics so my hubby and I can enjoy them at our leisure, since we have so much going on with our two grandkids basketball tournaments approaching. It's really nice to just click which event we want to watch at any time.
Annie, I read "Cindy"
and seriously got so confused. I hate those dang technology devices that think they are smarter than the actual user. Like voice smartphones, that prints text according to what it hears, yet it is not what was actually said. I crack up when I see a text from my daughter in law with a word thrown in that makes no sense. lolol You've got to love em and hate em at the same time.
I managed to get through yesterday's busy schedule and even make it to evening mass, so today was a day of lounging in my pjs all day. PatH., I do collapse, and treasure my down time.
Ciao for now~
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When you figure out how to turn off that helpful little feature, please let us know, Pat. Would save us from a bunch of embarrassment...although I do appreciate spelling corrections.
It makes sense that Uncle Kirkpatrick was introduced as a way to get Cynthia and Clare out of Hollingford, Bella. I thought this gave Molly and Dad a chance to bond as their unhappiness in Clare's household became apparent.
Not sure Mrs. Gaskell provided a good enough reason for this uncle's interest in his niece after so many years. Did you see one - other than she is beautiful and charming? Maybe we'll learn of another reason later. Maybe Mr. Preston was behind the invitation. Easy to blame him for everything.
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JoanP., LOLOLOL Yep, Preston could be our scapegoat, although I can't see him wanting Cynthia any further away from him than necessary.
When I read the uncle being introduced, I seriously was going HUH??? Out of the blue he wants Cynthia to visit him, and a reason for Clare to join Cynthia, when she was complaining about not being invited. I have learned to just roll with the punches where this book is concerned. ???
I'm beginning to think Gaskell does not feel the need to provide good enough reasons for anything....but then who knows...there is still lots of story to be told.
Ciao for now~
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I don't have any problem with the motivation of plot in Gaskell's novel. Unexpected events happen in the Victorian novel to move the plot along, as they do in any novel, and they are not as important for themselves as for the way they reveal character and manners. Young women frequently viisited relatives in order to meet people and learn about the world before, and to facilitate, finding a mate. Often unmarried women did this; I think of the maiden aunt who has no real home and just visits among relatives. They did not have the freedom we have today to go to college or take a job in another city but they crave a change of scene and an opportunity to learn more about life.
I think Gaskell is best in creating scenes that with small details that reveal a great deal about the characters. After Mrs. Gibson and Cynthia leave, Molly is ecstatic about having her father to herself and tells him of all the things they can enjoy together. He listens agreeeably enough but says he doesn't want to lose all the civilized behavior he has learned and insists they also go to tea with at Mrs. Goodenough's. He is showing loyalty to his wife, he can't afford to speak ill of her behind her back, because he a man of stalwart character and makes the best of what he has done, and I think he also wants Molly to grow up a bit and realize that her life too is changing and she can't be his playful little girl forever.
The Brownings I think are characters left over from Cranford, but how wonderfully do they intone the social values of the past, the rigid standards that are no longer held but modern people are not too sure how far they can stray from. The way the elder one scolds Molly is disconcerting, about the broken cup, and then about her response to the implication that Molly could be involved with Preston, but Miss Browning feels her role is to discipline and control Molly, of course all for her own good.
There are just so many scenes in the book that say so much. Mrs. Gibson presents her devious plans in the presence of people outside the family so the family cannot strenuously object and she can get approval at least from people who are not involved anyway. The more I read, the more I enjoy this novel.
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I agree that Mr. Kirkpatrick's reasons for inviting Cynthia are adequately explained. It would be a sort of family duty to keep an eye on his brother's daughter, so when he can finally fit it into his busy professional life, and is going to be in the neighborhood anyway, he visits, and is charmed. Then, when he remembers, he suggests his wife invite the girl. The real question is why is Cynthia reluctant to go? It isn't just the clothes.
The whole chapter is full of wonderful comic touches--a breath of relief between more serious things. How about Mrs. Goodenough always walking with the grease spots on her clothes next to her husband so no one else could see them.
Or Miss Browning: "Whenever there's a second course, there's always the clergyman of the parish invited in any family of gentility."
Or the Gibsons:
"Have I not often said so, Mr. Gibson?"
"Probably."
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PatH: Yes, and walking with the grease spot where it doesn't show reminds me of Cranford. There the ladies did not need to dress up because everybody knew them, and when they were among new people they didn't need to dress up because nobody knew them. So they could preserve their best clothes, and of course they had very little money.
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Lucy, I agree in many of Austen's novels, girls go off for visits with family or close friends. My surprise in introducing Mr. Kirkpatrick so late in the story, and how quickly Cynthia is invited to come for a visit when there has been so little mention. But it did give Molly the opportunity to have some time with her father, which I thought was nice.
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'The more I read, the more I enjoy this novel.'
My feeling too, Lucy. Yes, Bellamarie, I've read to the end, and now enjoy going back and rereading. I watched the movie over the weekend, all five hours of it, and found it a real pleasure. Along the way I found a quote from the guy who plays Preston: 'there's something endearingly honest about him. Preston is acting out of profound love and has the purest motivation of anyone in the story.' He loves Cynthia. They all do, if less passionately.
And here comes the uncle, Mr Kirkpatrick, Q.C. I, too, wondered about his interest in his niece. She charms him. He finds her 'sparkling, quick, graceful and witty.' How wonderful to have her as a houseguest. In the next chapter we find Cynthia softening the old squire' heart.
Pat, I enjoyed your selection of 'comic touches'. There are so many. Does Mrs Goodenough really remake her gowns so the grease stains will be out of sight, with Mr G covering for her? Or your quote:
"Have I not often said so, Mr. Gibson?"
"Probably."
That suggests to me that he doesn't listen to everything she says. And how about the strains showing up in the Gibson family setting? That last sentence in Chapter 38, Mr Kirkpatrick Q.C., is ominous. Clare is coming between Molly and her father, doing 'all the things, in fact, which Molly and her father did not want to have done and throwing the old stumbling-blocks in the way of their unrestricted intercourse, which was the one thing they desired to have, free and open, and without the constant dread of her jealousy.'
As Lucy points out, Gaskell does use clever plot devices as a means of getting the situations she wants. Mr Kirkpatrick gets Mrs Gibson out of the house for a week, allowing father and daughter to themselves.
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Yes, Bellamarie. Right on. I hadn't read your post before posting mine. We had the same reaction to that development. I've read to the end. I hope nothing I post spoils it for you. But of course it won't. There are just too many possible interpretations for everything.
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Jonathan: I'm surprised and curious about the quote you give us by the actor who played Preston. I am thinking I need to use my DVR player again and see this movie. But 5 hours! I applaud your diligence.
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That's perilously close to a spoiler, Jonathan. As yet we know very little about the history of Preston and Cynthia--just hints and speculations.
Not only does Gibson not listen carefully to his wife, she is probably pretty inaccurate in reporting what she has said. Truth would be hard to come by.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
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You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 5 Feb.12-Feb.21
Feb. 12 - Feb.18}
Chapter 41. Gathering Clouds
Chapter 42. Storm Bursts
Chapter 43. Cynthia's Confession
Chapter 44. Molly Gibson To The Rescue
Chapter 45. Confidences
Chapter 46. Hollingford Gossips
Chapter 47. Scandal And Its Victims
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Some Things to Think About
Feb. 12-18 Chapters XLI-XLVII ~ (...)
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER XLI. Gathering Clouds
Do you find it suspenseful to hear again about Roger's fever in letters that are several weeks old?
What causes Molly to doubt Cynthia's love for Roger?
Are we yet able to understand more why Cynthia doesn't want her arrangement with Roger to be made known? We're still kept in suspense about the "gathering clouds."
What do you think of Miss Browning's admonitions to both Molly and Mrs. Gibson?
CHAPTER XLII. Storm Bursts
What happens when Molly finds Cynthia with Mr. Preston? What storm bursts? What does Molly learn?
What are Molly's thoughts when she and Cynthia return home?
CHAPTER XLIII Cynthia's Confession
Has your opinion of Cynthia changed because of what you've learned in her "confession?" Do you feel more or less sympathy for her? Do you understand Cynthia's actions as a 16 year-old? Do you understand her subsequent actions/feelings?
Has your opinion of Cynthia's mother changed based on what you've heard from Cynthia in this chapter?
What are Molly's main concerns after she hears everything from Cynthia?
CHAPTER XLIV Molly Gibson To The Rescue
What do you think of Molly during her meeting with Mr. Preston?
What do you think of Preston?
Do you foresee some mischief coming about from Mr. Sheepshank seeing Molly and Mr. Preston together?
How does Cynthia misjudge Molly?
CHAPTER XLV Confidences
What are Molly's reactions to her being involved in Cynthia's secret?
What do you think about Cynthia's behavior and what she asks of Molly now that the letters have been returned?
What do you think about Osborne's confidence and his assessments of Molly and Cynthia?
CHAPTER XLVI Hollingford Gossips
How does the gossip about Molly escalate?
Do you find that Mrs. Gaskell inserted humorous characterizations of the various speakers amid the gossip?
CHAPTER XLVII Scandal And Its Victims
What do we learn in the beginning of this chapter about Cynthia's feelings toward Molly?
How does Mrs. Gibson characterize her/one's duty toward the sick?
What does Mr. Preston think when he heard some of the rumors about Molly and him?
Do you understand the Miss Brownings actions?
What do you think of Mr. Gibson's reactions to hearing from Miss Browning?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net),
PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), ADOANNIE (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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Jonathon,
That last sentence in Chapter 38, Mr Kirkpatrick Q.C., is ominous. Clare is coming between Molly and her father, doing 'all the things, in fact, which Molly and her father did not want to have done and throwing the old stumbling-blocks in the way of their unrestricted intercourse, which was the one thing they desired to have, free and open, and without the constant dread of her jealousy.'
Yes, indeed Mr. Kirkpatrick found a way to get Clare out of the house, and give Molly and her father some alone time. So, do you suppose Mr. K. knew full well Clare would end up coming along, if he invited Cynthia? After all, he did know her when she was married to his brother. Hmmm.... nice catch Jonathon, I sort of zipped right by that.
I'll ignore that quote about Preston, since I'm not sure where it fits in, and I don't want to spoil it before I get to it. And yes, there are so many twists and turns and interpretations, what we think we see at one moment, can be dashed away in the next page or chapter.
This story is starting to pick up speed in these chapters......I can't wait to see what happens when the two of them return home, and see Molly and her father have had a delightful time. But as Lucy points out, he did just enough, to show his respect for his wife being gone. Molly does at some point need to mature, and not need those type of things, a little child needs from her father. She is old enough to be married, she needs to begin letting go of her father, and start seeing the two of them in a more adult father/daughter relationship. I felt as if Gaskell was giving Molly her last
hoo - rah with her father, in her childlike manner. How is Clare going to feel when she returns and learns about this?
Ciao for now~
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Did you get the feeling that Mrs. Gaskell was going out of her way to portray Molly as a child, as a rather awkward teenager, not yet a woman? She's 18 years old! What did you think of the broken teacup? I thought it would have been a nice thing for Uncle Kirkpatrick to invite both girls, don't you? Maybe Molly's awkwardness was apparent and he decided against it after meeting her. Isn't it said that Molly has just had a growth spurt? Would that explain her awkwardness?Jonathan I'm curious, how did she appear in the film at this age?
I still believe we're going to learn more why he invited Cynthia, though. Cynthia says her clothes are not good enough for London society. I guess I can believe that. She's been scrimping, at the expense of her wardrobe. Is this the reason she doesn't want to go? Really?
I assumed that she was frightened to go off by herself, fearing Mr. Preston would stalk her.
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I wondered about this particular part, pg. 476 "They'll ask Mr. Ashton, of course," said Miss Browning. "The three black graces, Law, Physic, and Divinity, as the song calls them. Whenerver there's a second course, there's always the clergyman of the parish invited in any family of gentility.
So I went on a Google search to find the song they mention. I found Theodore Hook wrote the song, and also found this info on him:
Theodore Hook was a famed English author who was particularly known for his outlandish practical jokes, chief of which was the Berners Street Hoax. While Hook was never charged for the events he instigated in the Berners Street Hoax, he did have other legal troubles. Foremost of which was when he was made the Accountant General and Treasurer of Mauritius, now known as the Republic of Mauritius, despite having no knowledge of or experience with accounting or book keeping or most other skills required of the job. He managed to last five years at that position before it was discovered that there were large discrepancies in the accounts. He was arrested and held responsible for around £12,000 that was lost, supposedly largely having been taken by a deputy official.
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/10/one-of-the-great-practical-jokes-of-the-19th-century-the-berners-street-hoax/
The found these verses of the song:
"The three black graces, Law, Physic, and Divinity,
Walk hand - in - hand along the Strand, humming la Poule,
Trade quits his Compter, Alma Mater her Latinity
Proud and vain with Mr. Payne to go to school.
Should you want advice in Law, you'll little gain by asking it,
Your Lawyer's not a Westminister; he's busy Pas de basqu'ing it:
D'ye want to loose a Tooth, and run to Wayte for drawing it;
He sure cannot attend: he's Demi Queue he Chat'ing it:
Run Neighbours run; all London is Quadrilling it,
While Order and Sobriety dance Dos' a dos.__
http://books.google.com/books?id=_sG6ns1N7CYC&pg=PA344&dq=The+three+black+graces,+Law,+Physic,+and+Divinity,+Walk+hand+-+in+-+hand+along+the+Strand,+humming+La+Poule&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x1v6UurOMs2ayQHHg4DIBg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=The%20three%20black%20graces%2C%20Law%2C%20Physic%2C%20and%20Divinity%2C%20Walk%20hand%20-%20in%20-%20hand%20along%20the%20Strand%2C%20humming%20La%20Poule&f=false
Whatever did Miss Browning infer using that quote? Is Mr. Kirkpatrick playing some sort of joke on Clare and Cynthia, by taking them away to London? Is Mrs. Gaskell showing us she is a jokester as well, by using Theodore Hook's song? Hmmm....food for thought.
Ciao for now~
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'Is Mrs Gaskell showing us she is a jokester....?' I wouldn't put it past her, Bellamarie. Thanks for that interesting link. And I've concluded that she is also a brilliant gossip. She certainly know how to use it to confound a reader. Or perhaps she has just caught the spirit of small town Hollingford. Gossip accounts for the poor image of Mr Preston. Here's a link to the quote from Iain Glen, who plays him in the movie. You'll find it at the very bottom of the page, the wrong place for a major figure.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/wives/whos_who_text.html
The movie really made clear for me that the story is about two girls, so different in nature, different in upbringing, and who suggested it...rivals in love? And that reminds me of wanting to reply to JoanK's post several days ago, pointing out that a neglected Cynthia could have turned out better if she had lived with a mother's restraints as a child. Certainly, but I would also like to suggest that she missed out on a mother's love. Cynthia is just as unsure of herself as Molly. But it's practically a refrain from Cynthia that she's looking for love, and more importanly, looking for approval. I enjoyed Pat's suggestion that truth is hard to come by in this book.
'I thought it would have been a nice thing for Uncle Kirkpatrick to invite both girls, don't you?' I agree, JoanP. Molly is wonderful in the movie. I found her just as graceful as Cynthia. Molly has a fine English grace about her, compared to Cynthia's flamboyant French style.
As for the broken china cup, that's totally out of character. Thats related at Miss Browning's, and she just wants the world to know that she is taking a hand in teaching Molly...what a mother should/would have taught her.
'I'll be her guardian angel, in spite of herself.' end of chapter 40. Never will she permit Mr Preston to get her as his wife. That gossipy bunch that gets together at the Brownings is hilarious.
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I think we are seeing the effects of the book having come out as a serial. I'm guessing that Gaskell didn't plot the whole book out ahead of time (as I believe Dickens did) but each time she had to write another installment, thought "well, what shall I do with them now?" That would make sense of the way subplots arise and fall away during the book.
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Hmm--that makes sense, JoanK. I like to think that at least she knew how her characters were going to end up.
Miss Browning May have cast herself as Molly's guardian angel, but she's being pretty harsh about it. First she scolds Molly unmercifully in front of everyone about breaking a teacup, then she is surprised when Molly shrinks in a corner and stops talking.
And she's awfully quick to believe that it was Molly and not Cynthia who was seen with Mr. Preston, in spite of Mrs. Goodenough's certainty on the point.
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Your post immediately made me think of Dickens' The Mystery of Edwin Drood, JoanK. I don't think I'll ever get over the fact that he didn't plot out the ending before he died. Not only that - he didn't speak to ANYONE about how he intended to end that story. At least Mrs. Gaskell spoke to others - her editor, about her story and we will not be left in the dark at the end!
Bella, I read right past that reference...will go back and reread if time this afternoon. (Understand that when you give page numbers, we're not reading the same text - better to give chapter numbers. Will try to find the reference, but know idea of its importance. Maybe in context...)
Funny, the busybodies - they claim Molly as their own, praise her goodness, take credit for the way she has been brought up - yet are so quick to believe that she is dallying in the lane with Mr. Preston!
Molly as graceful as Cynthia in the movie, Jonathan? I can't wait for it to arrive. That seems to underscore the fact that Miss Browning is just embellishing her story when she speaks of Molly's awkwardness. (Anyone can drop a teacup, no?)
Does it occur to Molly that it was Cynthia in the lane with Mr. Preston?? She must have - but I don't remember her reaction when it was implied that it was Molly...
I do agree, Cynthia seems to be blaming her mother for all of her past bad behavior... Do continue to defend Clare, JonathanI I tend to think the mother is self-centered and a bit dillusional, but Cynthia needs to take responsibility for her actions - whatever she did. We're about to find out what that is... FINALLY!
Posting at the same time, Pat. As you can see, I agree with you. Who are Molly's friends if not the Brownings?
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JoanP, I've solved the problem of auto-correct on the iPad. Go to Settings. Select General. Scroll down to Keyboard--it's fairly far down. Tap it to get the keyboard menu. In this menu, slide the ON switch of Auto-Correction to OFF. If you leave Check Spelling set to ON, it will still underline misspellings.
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Got it! That should help! No more "Cindy" for Cynthia. Part of that was my fault...I think I started to type Cinthia and was corrested! Better just to see it underlined. :D
Jonathan, was the film broken up as if in installments?
Tomorrow we are scheduled to move on to Mrs. Gibson's return to Hollingford after her stay in London and then hopefully learn more about what Cynthia has done with Mr. Preston.
There's an important question we haven't addressed yet-Osborne's health. Do we agree that Dr. Gibson's opinion was more accurate than Dr. Nicholl's? Molly seems to have no idea that he is so ill, or she would have insisted on letting Roger know. And the Squire- should know his son was ill. If Osborne were to die, where would that leave his wife? And how does this all fit in with Cynthia's engagement to Roger?
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JoanP., Sorry I forgot about the page numbers being different. It can be found in chapter 38, I believe it's on the first page of that chapter, when the Browning sisters are talking about Mr. Kirkpatrick coming for a visit. Just never understood why Gaskell used that particular part of Hook's song. Other than she liked his sense of humor. In the verses it pretty much says these particular career people will not be available to provide their services, since they will be too busy dancing and humming to the music la Poule (The Hen) lolol
Jonathon, I will rent the movie once we finish the book. I would love to see how all the characters look.
JoanK., Yes, I agree, like I mentioned earlier, this book knowing it was in series form, really does remind me of a Soap Opera, the writers can change directions of a character at any given time, because there truly is no set outcome, since it's ongoing. Reading the book in segments the way we are, makes me feel even more like watching and waiting each day for my soap, General Hospital.
I felt the entire teacup incident was cruel and embarrassing for Molly. Geesh that was much ado, about nothing. Miss Browning, I felt was trying to feel important and show others she is trying to help Molly learn manners etc. Sheeeze....really?
Molly speaks about her concern, about how Cynthia acts so upset about Mr. Preston, yet seems intimate with him at times, so I am sure it did not come as a surprise to her when the Browning sister mentions she was seen with Preston in the lane. Molly jumps to defend Cynthia, regardless, if she knows Cynthia has had some sort of relationship with Preston at Ashcombe. I think Molly really was upset that the women were gossiping about Cynthia.
As for Osborne's health, I think he is just heartsick for the mess he has gotten his life in. He sees no way out, and now he has not only a wife hidden away, but a baby soon to be born.
Another thing we did not discuss was the fact Preston had been previously engaged, and the girl's father made her call off the engagement due to his gambling. I mentioned in a prior post, I think Cynthia is giving her allowance to Preston to help pay off his gambling debts, in lieu of the arrangement he has with Clare for helping her in a financial situation at Ashcombe. Any thoughts on this?
Okay, I am off to read the next chapters....some of you are mentioning things that are piquing my interest.
Ciao for now~
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Thanks for the chapter number, Bella. After rereading, it, I remember now...Mrs. Goodenough wondering if the Gibsons will host a party for the visiting QC.. They'll probably invite the pastor, Mr. Ashton ..."Whenever there's a second course there's always the clergyman of the parish invited in any family of gentility"..
The three black graces - from a song with which Mrs. Goodenough was familiar as she anticipates a gathering of the Law, (Mr. K), Physic, (Dr. Gibson) and Divinity, (Mr. Ashton.)
Is Mrs. Goodenough laughing at Mrs. Gibson here? - "who would ha thought she'd such grand relations."
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We should remember Dr. Gibson's first diagnosis of Osborne's condition...that it was fatal. He didn't want to believe this - called in the elder Dr. Nicholl's for another opinion. He didn't think it as anything as serious as Dr. Gibson did. I don't know about you, but I believed Dr. Gibson's first impression, which would mean Osborne's health is much worse than just being heartsick because of the mess he's in.
I'm not so sure Mrs. Gaskell is changing her story from one installment to the next, as much as she's revealing her story at her own pace, leading us to think we read more than she has written. It's an art, really.
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Sorry, I was getting a little ahead of where we were reading this week. It was so interesting I just kept on going. I feel the teacup incident is over the top, ridiculous to us anyway, and maybe used to entertain Gaskell's readers with a change of pace. The Brownings are the type of people one meets in Cranford, which was and is such a unique, beloved, popular short novel known for its humor. I can't help thinking Mrs. Gaskell wanted to entertain with more of the type of story enjoyed in Cranford, and went over the mark in her efforts to entertain. Of course these old ladies prized their china very much and probably did not have money to replace it.
I think Cynthia's reason for not wanting at first to go to London is what she says, a lack of proper wardrobe. She is a budding fashionista, not quite as far gone as her mother, but wants to be seen looking fashionable. As soon as she gets the money and the new dresses, she is happy and off for a good time. I enjoy the youthful lightheartedness that she manifests in spite of her problems, while Molly is suffering through the long winter in depressed low spirits, which makes Mr. Kirkpatrick not like her as much as he does Cynthia and not think her very pretty, and is probably the reason he does not include her in his invitation.
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As some of you are remarking, it does seem that the "installment" method of writing likely influences the repetition of some information in various ways. It also likely calls for more suspense (or cliffhangers) than might otherwise be included.
We're now on to CHAPTER XLI "Gathering Clouds." We've been learning about Osborne's illness. Do you find it suspenseful to hear again about Roger's fever? His letters are about a month behind the current date. Molly is very affected by the news.
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If Dr. Gibson's first diagnosis is correct and Oborne's has a fatal illness, it would seem both Hamley boys are in failing health with Roger in a second fever. He may be recovered by now, but still two fevers in just a short time, and he still has a year to go in Africa. It makes me wonder if he will make it home again.
I'm beginning to feel Molly's winter depression, we can't seem to stop snowing and our temp was -11 this morning! I so want Spring to come! Okay off to read this week's chapters......this book sure has helped my winter days pass by with anticipation!
Ciao for now~
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Lucy- do you find, as I do, that by introducing the "over the top" humorous elements, through the ladies of Cranford - that Mrs. Gaskell is signaling that this will NOT be a dark tale, ending in tragedy? I'm beginning to believe all will end well - though not certain about Osborne. Plenty of allusions in these chapters indicate that Dr. Gibson's original diagnosis was correct.
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Joan, I think that's a good point to compare with Cranford. Miss Mattie's admirer dies in it but it's essentially a hopeful story. Bellamarie, I'm thinking that we're supposed to be worried for both brothers but maybe it's just to keep tension in the story. At least one needs to make it through!
In this chapter, there is more cause for tension. What causes Molly to doubt Cynthia's love for Roger?
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I am a bit confused, if Osborne is in fatal health, why when Dr. Gibson returns, and Molly tells him Osborne was here and not looking well, Gibson shows no reason to go straight to see him? He did not seem in any urgency at all?? ???
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For Dr. Gibson: nothing urgent about Osborne's health? Good question, Bellamarie. Have you noticed? Osborne's health means something different to each of them. Dr. Gibson, of course, has seen what Molly has seen, and knows that the illness will run its course. More important is the falling out he has had with his wife over it. For Mrs Gibson Osborne's health is supremely important as it affects Cynthia's marriage prospects. The squire is too troubled to notice. Or does he?
LOL. The book is getting me through the winter as well as you! We're buried in snow here in Toronto. What a luxury, to be retired and not have to go out. Even five hours of movie passes the time so pleasantly.
'I'm beginning to believe all will end well.' Your optimism, JoanP, is a thrill to behold. Let me tell you something about the author I just read the other day. Gaskell had a fondness for happy endings. You are so right about installment writing being an art form.
'Cynthia is a budding fashionista, not quite as far gone as her mother...lighthearted in spite of her problems'. What a fine observation, Lucy. And you're right about Cranford revisited. Delightful. And isn't Roger's health used to show both girl's feelings about him?
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And of course, for Cynthia, Osborne's health raises the question: do we have to talk about it? Talk of death, that is. She has as much of a problem with her mother, as Mr Gibson has with his wife. Poor Clare. Sometimes my heart bleeds for her
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" Dr. Gibson, of course, has seen what Molly has seen, and knows that the illness will run its course."
Really, Jonathan? Does Dr. G. know Osborne's illness will run its course? Is that why he didn't go right over to Hamley Hall?
I just now finished Chapter 47- can't get past this ominous sentence-
It occurred when Dr. Gibson, still putting off his visit to Hamley Hall, wrote to Osborne to ask him how he was. Osborne told him not to come on his account (doesn't want the Squire to know how sick he is?)
"So the visit was deferred to that more convenient season which is so often too late"
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There were two other interesting revelations in the opening Gathering Storms chapter, I thought, Marcie -
(Not that Clare's running dialogue about her own superior qualities wasn't amusing :D)
- Cynthia 's comments - and actions seem to indicate her lack of feeling for Roger, which Molly cannot understand. She even went so far as to say she'd break it off altogether with Roger, if word of the engagement gets out before she wants it to.
- Though she apologized to Molly. Miss Browning continues to believe she saw Molly in the lane with Mr. Preston. Does Molly think that Cynthia was the one seen with Preston?
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When everyone in the two families knew or suspected that there was something wrong with Osborne they failed to communicate their worries to each other. I know that Mr Gibson couldn't mention Osborne's slim chances. Is this where Clara tells Mr Gibson she overheard him talking to the other dr about Osborne's health?
We seem to really be gentle with Cynthia's character but I get the impression that she was pretty empty when it came to her cares. Her feelings seems shallow and uncaring when it comes to Roger. Maybe she really is a vacuous and shallow girl.
Whereas, Molly is so compassionate that she feels sorry for Roger and prays that he and Cynthia find happiness together.
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JoanP, yes Chapter XLI seems to contain the first time that Molly actually doubts Cynthia's love for Roger, although, from the beginnning Cynthia has confessed she can't love anyone. I wonder if the author knew someone in real life who couldn't relate to people, based on the lack of intimacy in their upbringing. It seems a more modern sensibility.
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These chapters really bothered me a lot! Cynthia has manipulated Molly into getting her out of her mess she has made with Preston, while she goes off to London having fun at parties, leaving Molly with a heavy heart, and heavy responsibility in giving the money back to Preston. I can't find any sympathy for the situation Cynthia had gotten herself into, because even though she was only sixteen years old, she is still repeating her selfish acts, and striving for attention. She continued to write love letters to Preston.
This whole situation of the money from Preston surprises me in a way, because Cynthia spends so much time on Molly's dress and hair for the ball, and doesn't give a second thought to her own dress, yet she was so vain just two years prior, she takes money from Preston for pretty dresses, bonnets etc., and just recently, she not only takes money from Mr. Gibson for new dresses, but also gets more from her uncle when she goes to London. She is all about fashion, going to the parties in London, capturing Mr. Henderson's attention, while she is still promised to Preston, and Roger, before Molly was able to get her free from Preston. Ughhh....you would think she would learn, but I fear her character is all about vanity and attention. I would not be the least bit surprised if she marries Mr. Henderson on a whim, since he is far wealthier and more handsome than Roger. I do believe Cynthia is incapable of real love with any depth, but I don't think she really cares about not being able to love, like Molly can. Molly is innocent and can afford to be a romantic, Cynthia is more a realist. Cynthia knows at the end of the day, marriage for her is much like her mother, a convenience to be taken care of financially, be accepted into society, and the proper families.
Now that Cynthia's secret is out, and Molly has cleaned up her mess for her, it is almost heartless of Cynthia to pull away from her. I think Cynthia would be happy to stay living in London, and never have to return and deal with Molly or Mr. Gibson's disappointment in her.
I am still trying to digest these chapters. I suspected Clare and Preston were promised to each other, but I thought for a far more important reason than what Gaskell came up with. Dresses, bonnets, gloves, etc. ::) ::) ::) I guess I will reserve my disappointment, until the end of the story, and hope for something better to come.
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie, it is difficult to have sympathy with Cynthia, especially seeing what a burden she has placed on Molly. She does seem to have taken after her mother's self-centeredness, yet she can see through her mother. Molly still loves her. Can Cynthia be without merit? We've been told from the beginning that Cynthia acts almost unconsciously. She becomes what people want to see in her. Can anyone explain her actions ... as a 16 year-old? Do you understand her subsequent actions/feelings? Jonathan, you usually are able to shed some light on the underdog. ;)
Bellarmarie, re the letters Cynthia wrote to Preston, we don't know how long a time she continued to write, do we? I don't think that the letters were recent.
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Marcie, there was no specific time as to when Cynthia stopped writing "love" letters to Preston, but it surely sounds as recent as to before she came back to live with the Gibson's, which means they were ongoing up to around 18 yrs old. That seemed to be Preston's strongest argument, and Cynthia's biggest concern, that she had continued for two years. Cynthia is a bit of an enigma to me. Gaskell has painted her with strokes of sweetness, yet she lacks the ability to genuinely care for others. She only reacts to Molly being upset, when it pertains to herself not looking good in Molly's eyes. She is like an egomaniac, it's got to be all about her at all times. Yes, she sees through her mother's faults, and even acknowledges her own faults, yet does not seem the least bit interested in changing. Granted, Cynthia has mentioned how her mother failed to give her love and attention, when she was young and needed it the most, using that for the excuse as to why she is unable to love, like Molly. But that can not be the excuse for her to take advantage of others, such as promising herself to Roger, and putting Molly in such a difficult situation. She uses nice people, for her dalliances, and doesn't seem to give a hoot, as to what pain she causes them. She just figures she will run away to London or Germany and be a governess, and leave the wounded behind.
I could have been more sympathetic to Cynthia's engagement to Preston, if say it was done due to him bailing Clare out of a financial situation, and she promises him, her daughter's hand in marriage, for his kind acts. As much as I don't like Preston, I feel as much dislike for Cynthia after these chapters. Does Clare even know about this engagement? No where in these chapters does it even imply Clare knows, or had any knowledge of Preston giving Cynthia money, for dresses, bonnets etc. How very vain.
Although I do have to say, Molly placed herself right smack dab in the middle of the entire mess, by acting all high and mighty with Preston. Now what? She was trying to save Cynthia's reputation, only to find she has completely destroyed her own. Ughhhh....like I said these chapters have truly upset me. I thought after sleeping on it, I would feel a little better today, but if anything the dread remains. And yet, Cynthia is partying in fine fashion in London! Thank goodness, Mr. Gibson has the good sense of knowing his daughter well enough, to not believe a word of this gossip. But, I sense he is not going to be very happy to hear how Molly has conspired with Cynthia in this situation, causing herself shame in the town. Mama Mia!
Yes, Jonathon, you expressed to have a bleeding heart for poor Clare. Do jump in here, and help us out. I for the life of me can't find an ounce of blood, sweat or tears to shed for either of these self absorbed mother/daughter team of manipulation.
Ciao for now~
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I tend to like Cynthia, against my better judgement, just because I envy fun-loving, light-hearted girls who have such a good time in society. Girls just like to have fun is a song I think. But what really makes me turn against her is her attitude toward Roger. She says to Molly:
"You forget how I detest Mr. Preston....It was that, more than any excess of love for Roger, that made me thankful to be at least as securely pledged to some one else. He did not want to call it an engagement, but I did; because it gave me the feeling of assurance that I was free from Mr. Preston."
So she uses poor Roger to correct the mistake she has gotten herself into, and plays one against the other, to spare herself.
Her mother says she is not constant in her affections and may not marry Roger and how graciously she receives attentions from Mr. Henderson.
Molly is suspicious of Cynthia while continuing to love her as a sister. How much communication has been going on between Cynthia and Preston? She seems to be able to set up a meeting with Molly easily enough and he seems to have expected Cynthia. And of course Preston says Cynthia is not reliable, and although he is not saint he felt a sincere and unworldly passion for her. But now he is thinking about revenge.
Cynthia's reason for saying she will leave Hollingford if discovered is that she is addicted to being liked. She is a people pleaser in the extreme who cannot endure being around people who do not approve of her. Here Mrs.Gaskell is very insightful and presents a psychological state that is just as current today as it was then and most people can understand, because don't we all suffer from it from time to time? This kind of insight is why I like Gaskell so much.
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How many times does Cynthia express the fear that she will not be loved, liked, or respected if people know what she is really like? And yet, Mr. Preston seems to know her - and loves her, wants to marry her anyway. Sounds to me like they are a match! Maybe that's what Mrs. Gaskell has in store for them...
Now Molly knows her secret - and what she's capable of. Yet she remains a loyal friend. I think that Cynthia will distance herself from Molly now - and anyone else who knows what she is really like.
I can't say I like Cynthia...would want her for a friend, but I do feel sorry for her. What a lonely life. I know people like this. Is there a bit of Cynthia in all of us?
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bellamarie and Lucy, I appreciate your insights. They show how complex a character Mrs. Gaskell has written in Cynthia.
Like you, Lucy, I am enjoying reading her writing. It rises above what could have been "soap opera."
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The picture of Cynthia shows a lot of psychological awareness for the time. Her goal is to be liked, and she will work very hard at it. Even more important, she finds being disapproved of extremely painful, and will run from it. All this comes from her neglected childhood, when she was neither cared for, liked, or even wanted, with no moral support. She isn't capable of strong affection because she has never seen it.
She is surprisingly aware of her own nature, and says she isn't a good person, but that also she isn't bad either. Of course, she should try to behave better, but you can see why she doesn't
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Good points, Pat. And she is still young... a couple of years younger than Molly, I think. There are probably many young people in their late teens and 20s who don't have the maturity to make better choices ...even kids with loving parents.
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I could be wrong...but I thought the two were the same age. 17 or 18?
Do we know anything about Molly's education - or plans for the future?
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Joan, I had thought that Molly and Cynthia were the same age but I read something the other night that made me think that Cynthia was younger. It's not important but I'll see if I can find it.
Molly was tutored at home, right? She seems very bright and several times it's mentioned that Roger helped her learn about his interests and she is borrowing books from his home. She seems to read quite a bit. I don't know if she had any "schooling" such as Cynthia had in France. It would have had to be local since she never left her father's home before going to the Hamley's.
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Cynthia and Molly are the same age. If you recall when Molly first met Clare at the age of eleven, Clare told Molly she has a daughter her same age.
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Thanks, Bellamarie. I haven't found the age thing I ran across but I found some early info about Molly and her education.
Molly's father told Miss Eyre, whom he hired when Molly was 8:
"Don't teach Molly too much: she must sew, and read, and write, and do her sums; but I want to keep her a child, and if I find more learning desirable for her, I'll see about giving it to her myself. After all, I'm not sure that reading or writing is necessary. Many a good woman gets married with only a cross instead of her name; it's rather a diluting of mother-wit, to my fancy; but, however, we must yield to the prejudices of society, Miss Eyre, and so you may teach the child to read."
Miss Eyre listened in silence, perplexed but determined to be obedient to the directions of the doctor, whose kindness she and her family had good cause to know. She made strong tea; she helped the young men liberally in Mr. Gibson's absence, as well as in his presence, and she found the way to unloosen their tongues, whenever their master was away, by talking to them on trivial subjects in her pleasant homely way. She taught Molly to read and write, but tried honestly to keep her back in every other branch of education. It was only by fighting and struggling hard, that bit by bit Molly persuaded her father to let her have French and drawing lessons. He was always afraid of her becoming too much educated, though he need not have been alarmed; the masters who visited such small country towns as Hollingford forty years ago, were no such great proficients in their arts. Once a week she joined a dancing class in the assembly-room at the principal inn in the town: the "George;" and, being daunted by her father in every intellectual attempt, she read every book that came in her way, almost with as much delight as if it had been forbidden. For his station in life, Mr. Gibson had an unusually good library; the medical portion of it was inaccessible to Molly, being kept in the surgery, but every other book she had either read, or tried to read."
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Thanks for that information, Marcie. I thought both girls were about 18 and wondered about their future plans. Pretty clear that Cynthia will marry soon, but Molly doesn't seem to be interested in anyone- except Roger, of course...and he's taken.
No matter how I try, I can't work up sympathy for Cynthia after the way she's used Roger. It appears that both Cynthia and mom would be happy if the boy never made it home from Africa.
At some point, Cynthia has to stop blaming her mother's neglect and accept responsibility for her actions. She's not a child anymore. Next thing, Clare will be blaming her own mother for neglecting her - to explain what makes her act as she does. I'm not sure where Mrs. Gaskell will take us with this. She seems to be courting our sympathy for poor little Cynthia to account for her actions as a grown woman. Molly fell for it.
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It was also mentioned when Cynthia was to come live with the Gibsons, about how Molly will like having someone her own age. You probably think of Molly as younger, because she acts, and is treated younger. Cynthia has traveled, been educated in London, and has experienced much more manipulating, calculating ways in life through the poor example of her mother.
Gakell had me actually liking Cynthia a little bit, before she revealed Cynthia's secret, the reason for promising to marry Preston, the continued "love" letters, and the way she allowed Molly to get involved, to the point of using her to deliver not only the message she will not marry Preston, but also to give Preston the money, to make her free of her debt, and promise to him. She was deceitful to Molly and Preston, setting up the meeting, letting Preston think she would in fact be there to meet with him, and she let Molly believe she told Preston to expect Molly to be the one to meet with him. This was surly setting the two of them off balance, and feeling used.
Cynthia does not strike me as carefree, lighthearted or fun-loving. She goes to parties and balls for the purpose of being doted on, and being center of attention. She makes a point to dance with as many men as possible. She comes over to me as a tease, which is what Mr. Gibson warned her he may think of her, if she continues to act the way she is. Cynthia wants everyone to like her and never disapprove of her actions, yet she does nothing to change her actions to prevent others from being disappointed in her. Gaskell has made her like a prism, you see all these beautiful colors, yet they are ever changing with the light. As beautiful as prisms are, they are also an illusion, which is how I see Cynthia.
I don't meant to be unkind with my feelings for Cynthia, it's just Gaskell has truly left me personally no choice, but to not like this character. She has taken the ones who love her, care for her and befriended her, and used them with no regard for their feelings, and her solution if they find disappointment in her is to run away and never see them again. Some have mentioned the psychological thinking of Cynthia, her solution is what Dr. Phil calls the human reaction of the 3 F's in life....Fear, Flee and Flight. Dr. Phil also says, "You can't change, what you can't acknowledge." Cynthia acknowledges her faults, yet refuses to even try to change. She really could care less about others, it is all about her feelings, and her looking good in everyone's eyes. Yes, we all may have a little of that in us, but our human nature also teaches us we can't possibly have it our way all the time, and have happiness.
Sorry for the rant. As I said, these chapters have really troubled me. If Gaskell in these chapters, was making one more attempt to put Cynthia in an unfavorable light with the readers, she succeeded where I am concerned.
Marcie, It rises above what could have been "soap opera."
I'm not sure I can see it rising above a soap opera. I see writers for soaps as talented as Gaskell and vice versa. Writers of stories whether it be for TV, Magazines, Newspapers, Books, or any other format, I feel are worthy of their works, to be respected for their talents. One, does not in my opinion rise above the other. Gaskell wrote in segments, just like soaps are given in segments, and we are reading this story in segments, is what my reference was to. NOT the caliber or quality of the material. This is as complex a story as any soap I have ever seen, and as frustrating. :)
JoanP., We were writing at the same time. I agree with you! Cynthia needs to take responsibility and stop blaming her mother.
Ciao for now~
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Is it my imagination, or does Mrs. Gibson become more laughable with each chapter. It seems her comments were more subtle in earlier chapters. Now they are more obvious, and more numerous too...
The first paragraph when she returned from London, a good example- You just know that there is no truth in anything that she says... She is a caricature of a mother, comic relief ...and yet she makes such hateful throwaway remarks -
“Mrs. Gibson came back full of rose-coloured accounts of London. Lady Cumnor had been gracious and affectionate, "so touched by my going up to see her so soon after her return to England," Lady Harriet charming and devoted to her old governess, Lord Cumnor "just like his dear usual hearty self."
...and yet she makes such hateful throwaway remarks, not at all comical:
“Mrs. Kirkpatrick had showered down ball-dresses and wreaths, and pretty bonnets and mantles, like a fairy godmother. Mr. Gibson's poor present of ten pounds shrank into very small dimensions compared with all this munificence.”
ps I wonder if Mrs. Gaskell ever published a book without having to fit the chapters into bi-monthly installments - without having to build the suspense at the end of each installment, Bella.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
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You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 5 Feb.12-Feb.21
Feb. 12 - Feb.18}
Chapter 41. Gathering Clouds
Chapter 42. Storm Bursts
Chapter 43. Cynthia's Confession
Chapter 44. Molly Gibson To The Rescue
Chapter 45. Confidences
Chapter 46. Hollingford Gossips
Chapter 47. Scandal And Its Victims
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Some Things to Think About
Feb. 12-18 Chapters XLI-XLVII ~ (...)
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER XLI. Gathering Clouds
Do you find it suspenseful to hear again about Roger's fever in letters that are several weeks old?
What causes Molly to doubt Cynthia's love for Roger?
Are we yet able to understand more why Cynthia doesn't want her arrangement with Roger to be made known? We're still kept in suspense about the "gathering clouds."
What do you think of Miss Browning's admonitions to both Molly and Mrs. Gibson?
CHAPTER XLII. Storm Bursts
What happens when Molly finds Cynthia with Mr. Preston? What storm bursts? What does Molly learn?
What are Molly's thoughts when she and Cynthia return home?
CHAPTER XLIII Cynthia's Confession
Has your opinion of Cynthia changed because of what you've learned in her "confession?" Do you feel more or less sympathy for her? Do you understand Cynthia's actions as a 16 year-old? Do you understand her subsequent actions/feelings?
Has your opinion of Cynthia's mother changed based on what you've heard from Cynthia in this chapter?
What are Molly's main concerns after she hears everything from Cynthia?
CHAPTER XLIV Molly Gibson To The Rescue
What do you think of Molly during her meeting with Mr. Preston?
What do you think of Preston?
Do you foresee some mischief coming about from Mr. Sheepshank seeing Molly and Mr. Preston together?
How does Cynthia misjudge Molly?
CHAPTER XLV Confidences
What are Molly's reactions to her being involved in Cynthia's secret?
What do you think about Cynthia's behavior and what she asks of Molly now that the letters have been returned?
What do you think about Osborne's confidence and his assessments of Molly and Cynthia?
CHAPTER XLVI Hollingford Gossips
How does the gossip about Molly escalate?
Do you find that Mrs. Gaskell inserted humorous characterizations of the various speakers amid the gossip?
CHAPTER XLVII Scandal And Its Victims
What do we learn in the beginning of this chapter about Cynthia's feelings toward Molly?
How does Mrs. Gibson characterize her/one's duty toward the sick?
What does Mr. Preston think when he heard some of the rumors about Molly and him?
Do you understand the Miss Brownings actions?
What do you think of Mr. Gibson's reactions to hearing from Miss Browning?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net),
PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), ADOANNIE (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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“Mrs. Gibson came back full of rose-coloured accounts of London."
This says it all......rose-coloured indeed. It's ALL ABOUT ME!
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Must have been through that prism, Bella.
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Bellamarie and JoanP, of course you are right that neither Cynthia or her mother are coming out at all favorably in these chapters.
Joan, I agree that Mrs. Gibson's comments verge on caricature of herself. In some ways it's quite funny.
I don't think that the sentence "Mr. Gibson's poor present of ten pounds shrank into very small dimensions compared with all this munificence.” was meant to be a direct quote by Mrs. Gibson but just part of the narrative and acknowledgment of his gift shrank in lack of mention by herself amid all of her talk about Cynthia's hosts and how much they were showering on Cynthia.
Both Mrs. Gibson and Cynthia seem oblivious to the extent they each focus almost entirely on themselves. They seem to have developed habits of rationalizing that twist things around in their heads so that by their logic they are the victims. Mrs. Gibson also seems to think that she is acting heroically at times. At least Cynthia doesn't see herself as a hero, though didn't she say early on that she might have one heroic act in her?
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I've been noticing Molly's thoughts about Roger. She seems to be willing herself to think of Roger as a brother rather than anything more. In CHAPTER XLII, Storm Bursts, what comes to Molly's mind when she and Cynthia return home? Roger seems to be first in her thoughts.
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Heroine is the last word that comes to mind, to describe Clare or Cynthia. To perform a heroic act, you would need to step outside of yourself, to do for others. They don't seem capable of that. When Clare says Mr. Gibson's ten pounds shrank, my mouth just hung open. I saw that as saying he was cheap, compared to the uncle's generosity. I sense Cynthia will end up with Mr. Henderson, he is the new handsome, wealthy, successful man, and we all know that is what Cynthia and Clare are expecting in a husband for her.
Run Henderson...Run......
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Bellamarie, so you think that Cynthia is going to break Roger's heart and marry someone else. I guess we'll soon see if she does and what will motivate her.
We've talked quite a bit about Cynthia. What about Molly? What do you think of Molly during her meeting with Mr. Preston?
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Mr. Gibson's respect and high regard is so important to Cynthia. So important that she threatens to leave the house if he learns of the business with Mr. Preston. She doesn't worry so much about her mother, does she? She tells Molly she has made fun of Clare in those letters. Another reason for enlisting Molly's help getting them back. What would Clare think - or do if she read them?
" She isn't capable of strong affection because she has never seen it." I can't help but wonder about her own father, PatH ...have forgotten how old she was when he died. Does anyone remember? Clare doesn't waste any opportunity to comment on how caring and loving was her first husband, Cynthia's father. I know to take whatever Clare says about them for what they are...the opposite of the truth. Has Cynthia no memories of her affectionate father?
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Molly understands Cynthia's distress...wants to help her however she can. I feel she wants to protect Cynthia's honor for Roger's sake. She "feels she has right on their side." "Will try to walk the straight path."
I look at her as Joan of Arc...facing the enemy with complete confidence and belief in her cause. Preston has "no right to keep the letters, legal or moral...no right at all." She stands up to him with a "steady look of courageous innocence."
When Mr. Preston realizes that Molly has cleverly bested him, " he perceives that Molly is not aware she's a woman and he is a man." ? What did you make of this?
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Quote
"It rises above what could have been "soap opera."
I totally agree with that. I find myself wondering what young readers would have got out of this book, when it came out. It must have been fascinating to read about the experiences of these two teenagers, too young to be allowed to join in the card parties of older women, not having 'come out' yet. Clare's doing the best she can for them. Clare does show redeeming graces at times. It's almost as if the author realizes how hard she is on Mrs. Gibson. At the end of chapter 41 we read this: 'Mrs Gibson was always kind to poor people.' And goes off to look for bandages for an injured child. That gets Clare a pass into heaven from me. The marriage is turning into a disaster for her. As it is for Mr Gibson. Molly has become the talk of the town with her scandalous behavior. Her father is so angry he could horsewhip Mr Preston and poison those with slanderous tongues. The scandal has left Mr Preston discomfited and mortified. (Ch Scandal and its victims) But it's Cynthia, I believe, who is the unhappiest character in the book. 'I'm in a scrape. I suppose I'll always be in a scrape.' This is all to real for soap opera. I get the impression that Gaskell knew much more about life that the better known women writers of her time.
I watche the third disc of Wives and Daughters last night, with its Special Features. All very interesting. And of course it was said: 'This was the first real soap opera'. This is a literary soap opera'. About Molly: 'Saintly', 'Such a drip'. About Clare: 'Shallow and daffy'. Never have I read a book open to more interpretations.
A happy ending seems more and more unlikely. I believe the author herself found the story going out of control.
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Joanp, yes Cynthia does remember her father but when she wants to feel sad and cry about her father, her mother won't allow it? I am going in search of this soliloquy which Cynthia tells Molly. I am searching for it. ;D ;D
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Jonathon,
"Clare does show redeeming graces at times. It's almost as if the author realizes how hard she is on Mrs. Gibson. At the end of chapter 41 we read this: 'Mrs Gibson was always kind to poor people.' And goes off to look for bandages for an injured child. That gets Clare a pass into heaven from me.
Oh dear Jonathon, I have to be truthful and tell you when I read this in the chapter, I found this to be humorous. I laughed out loud when I read it, thinking Gaskell was being facetious saying this. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.
Jonathon, I watched the third disc of Wives and Daughters last night, with its Special Features. All very interesting. And of course it was said: 'This was the first real soap opera'. This is a literary soap opera'. About Molly: 'Saintly', 'Such a drip'. About Clare: 'Shallow and daffy'. Never have I read a book open to more interpretations.
Oh my, so I was not off base seeing this as a (literary) soap opera. Interesting how some feel it "rises above" a soap when in fact it is considered a soap opera. Calling it a soap opera, does not lower the quality of the writing, I know many people see television soap operas, having less quality in writing abilities, but after growing up on them, and watching one particular one, for 50 yrs, (I refuse to stop, since my Mom passed away 25 yrs ago, and this was one of her favorite ones,) I see the writing quality the same as a literary soap, just the actors/actresses you see, I feel gives us a better perspective on the characters. And yes, open to interpretation, is for certain, in this story. It's all in an individual's, personal perspective, as to how they see each character.
JoanP., I so agree with you, I do think Molly has more of Roger's feelings at stake in this whole mess, and feels she has to make every attempt to right Cynthia's wrong, to prevent Roger from knowing, and having a broken heart. Yes, thank you for reminding us of the fact, Cynthia has spoken ill about Clare in her letters. Oh how I would LOVE to get my hands on those letters myself!!
Just a reminder, there was the discrepancy about how old Cynthia was when her father died. Clare told Molly in the first chapters when she first met her, she was a widow of seven months, Cynthia told Molly she was only 4 years old and no one thought she would be old enough to have any feelings about it. Clare has spoken more highly of the late Mr. Kirkpatrick recently, I think due to the fact she and Gibson are not getting along. She makes a reference to how she may have valued their love more but she was young back then. Hmmm....again that would seem like Cynthia was only 4 yrs old, when Mr. K. died, since Clare says young love, which if he had died only seven months before, it would not have been so young, since Cynthia was eleven yrs old at the time. Cynthia spoke with affection for her Dad, so I have always had the impression, he was a nice person and he loved Clare very much, from her references in the book. Which I am too tired at this point, to go find. I do recall Cynthia sharing with Molly how much her father loved her. So, Clare and Cynthia have known what it is like to be loved.
Ciao for now~
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I took the remark that Clare is kind to the poor at face value. She is shallow and lacks insight into herself and others and is just not aware of what others are feeling she is so absorbed in herself. But I don't think she is evil. And I think that's what Mrs. Gaskell is saying, that she is a limited person whom we shouldn't feel too muchg animosity toward.
I thought it was remarkable the way Molly stood up to her father at his harshest and after all that even coaxes him to kiss her. She appears rather fragile and not very mature, sort of an awkward unworldly teenager, but when tested she is strong and can stand up to the hard criticism of the person she most loves and admires. I think most young girls would give up the secret under such pressure and throw Cynthia under the bus. Instead she endures the bad opinions of the towns people and waits for the truth to be revealed in its own time. She is aware of a cooling in Cynthia's attitude toward her and feels bad about it. She wants the love and good opinion of others but will not betray a trust to gain them.
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I don't object to the soap opera quality of the novel. Downton Abbey, which is very well presented, is kind of a soap opera. I am just very far behind with many episodes I look forward to watching. I don't keep up with series like that very well which is why I don't watch them.
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JoanP, Here's a part, in Chapter XIX, about Cynthia's memories of her father:
Cynthia says: "I don't think love for one's mother quite comes by nature; and remember how much I have been separated from mine! I loved my father, if you will," she continued, with the force of truth in her tone, and then she stopped; "but he died when I was quite a little thing, and no one believes that I remember him. I heard mamma say to a caller, not a fortnight after his funeral, 'Oh, no, Cynthia is too young; she has quite forgotten him'—and I bit my lips, to keep from crying out, 'Papa! papa! have I?' But it's of no use. Well, then mamma had to go out as a governess; she couldn't help it, poor thing! but she didn't much care for parting with me. I was a trouble, I daresay. So I was sent to school at four years old; first one school, and then another; and in the holidays, mamma went to stay at grand houses, and I was generally left with the schoolmistresses."
Even though she might have felt loved by her father, her mother was probably with her more of the time than her father while she was an infant and toddler. And she might have felt abandoned by her father when he died.
Lucy, I think that's a good assessment of Claire when you say: "She is shallow and lacks insight into herself and others and is just not aware of what others are feeling she is so absorbed in herself. But I don't think she is evil."
Jonathan, I knew you'd have some more insight into Claire. Gaskell isn't painting anyone in black and white. I think, as you, that she shows some redeeming qualities in Claire from time to time and she does try to care for Molly. As you say, "I get the impression that Gaskell knew much more about life that the better known women writers of her time." I am absorbed by her writing and the details that she provides.
Bellamarie, I concur with you too that even as Molly loves Cynthia and wants to protect her, "Molly has more of Roger's feelings at stake in this whole mess, and feels she has to make every attempt to right Cynthia's wrong, to prevent Roger from knowing, and having a broken heart."
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Molly understands Cynthia's distress...wants to help her however she can. I feel she wants to protect Cynthia's honor for Roger's sake. She "feels she has right on their side." "Will try to walk the straight path."
I look at her as Joan of Arc...facing the enemy with complete confidence and belief in her cause. Preston has "no right to keep the letters, legal or moral...no right at all." She stands up to him with a "steady look of courageous innocence."
When Mr. Preston realizes that Molly has cleverly bested him, " he perceives that Molly is not aware she's a woman and he is a man." ? What did you make of this?
Joan, that's a good question. Men of the time seemed to think that women were not up to logic and would usually be bested by a man. I guess I thought that Preston found Molly to be his equal in the exchange. She didn't resort to "womanly wiles" or succumb to either his charms or power. She stood her ground, even though he could see that she was somewhat afraid and she hit upon a successful plan for getting the letters from him.
What do you all think about the encounter between Preston and Molly?
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I really enjoyed Molly's encounter with Mr. Preston. Molly is coming into her own, finding courage she didn't know she had to face "evil" - You can sense Mrs. Gaskell's excitement as she wrote. Do you notice when she's caught up in the story she doesn't stop to catch her breath - nor does she stop for a period. :D
Remember diagramming sentences in school. How would you approach this one? (It's all one sentence!)
"Loaded with many such messages, which she felt that she should never deliver, not really knowing what she should say, hating the errand, not satisfied with Cynthia's manner of speaking about her relations to Roger, oppressed with shame and complicity in conduct which appeared to her deceitful, yet willing to bear all and brave all, if she could once set Cynthia in a straight path—in a clear space, and almost more pitiful to her friend's great distress and possible disgrace, than able to give her that love which involves perfect sympathy, Molly set out on her walk towards the appointed place."
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From the very start, I saw Preston as the sort of man who sees all exchanges with a woman in terms of sexual power. (I don't mean physical sex, but male versus female dominance and power.) Molly felt this unconsciously when she first met him, and it made her uncomfortable. It's hanging in the background of all his exchanges with women. It must really startle him to see Molly totally not dealing with him in those terms--none of the subtext of gender in their power struggle--simply a question of right conduct as far as Molly is concerned.
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Oh yes, not only doesn't she deal with him on his terms...but has unwittingly got the best of him on any terms! He's got to be impressed with this, though furious. He's going to get even, don't you think?
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He certainly will get even if he can, but he's going to have a hard time. She's hit him where he's weakest. Because of his good position with Lord Cumnor, including living in nice houses and having a bit of power, and because of his handsomeness and athletic ability, he is enjoying a social life above his origins. If he loses Lord Cumnor's good opinion, he'll lose all of that too.
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Lucy,
I thought it was remarkable the way Molly stood up to her father at his harshest and after all that even coaxes him to kiss her. She appears rather fragile and not very mature, sort of an awkward unworldly teenager, but when tested she is strong and can stand up to the hard criticism of the person she most loves and admires. I think most young girls would give up the secret under such pressure and throw Cynthia under the bus. Instead she endures the bad opinions of the towns people and waits for the truth to be revealed in its own time.
I'm not sure we have gotten to this chapter yet, but it's interesting to hear how Molly deals with her father. Can't wait to read this.
I have not seen Downtown Abby, but so many of the women I know, are very much into it, and I am considering renting the first series to catch up to it. I'm thinking I would like it.
I don't think Gaskell is making Clare entirely "evil" that is not a word I would choose, but she certainly has made her out to be very manipulative, unfeeling, rude, and self centered. As far as redeeming qualities, I think getting bandages for an injured boy is not enough to show me she is on the road to redemption. But, I won't ever give up hope for her, or Cynthia. After all, St. Paul, was knocked off his horse, and converted. ;)
JoanP., Yes, Molly is coming into her own, especially with that encounter with Preston. BUT....was she foolish, and immature, in thinking she could handle this by herself? My biggest fear is Preston is not finished with her just yet. He will extract revenge on her, and I suspect it will be in him informing Roger of the entire mess, which is what Molly has so hoped to prevent. Roger, knowing would not only disappoint him and break his heart where Cynthia is concerned, but he will see Molly in a new light, finding out she has not only kept these secrets from him, but acted on Cynthia's behalf to expunge the proposal, rather than exposing Cynthia. My instincts are telling me in the long run, even though Molly was doing it all to protect Roger's feelings, it's going to come back around and damage their relationship. I hope I am wrong. It has already harmed her reputation with the town's people. Unless, if and when Roger finds out, he can see the bravery, and love Molly has shown for him, in her actions in all of this.
PatH., Your point in Preston losing Lord Cumnor's good opinion is well founded, but something tells me, Preston may want his revenge on Molly and Cynthia so much so, he will sacrifice his own good standing. Preston does not seem to be a person I would want to cross, especially because he has loved Cynthia for so long, passed up other possible women, while waiting for Cynthia to turn 20 yrs old, and was hanging on her "love letters" with every hope, she meant to keep her promise to marry him. Cynthia has shamed him, and Molly has out maneuvered him. Hell hath no fury, as Preston being scorned!!! He was not the least bit concerned for how Lord Cumnor would think of him, when he showed his anger towards the squire. He is a man of arrogance, and entitlement, with no room for woman or man out smarting him.
I still want to know how Clare will react once she finds all this out. So far, Gaskell has kept Clare in the dark. There has been NO mention she has the slightest knowledge of the engagement, or taken any part in all of Cynthia's mess with Preston. But why has Clare and Lady Harriet shown so much dislike for Preston?
I can't wait to read the next chapters.
Ciao for now~
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JoanP, When Mr. Preston realizes that Molly has cleverly bested him, " he perceives that Molly is not aware she's a woman and he is a man." ? What did you make of this?
When I read that, I have no idea why, but at that moment I was concerned, that Preston would some how force Molly into marrying him. I'm not so sure I even entertain that thought anymore, and why it even popped into my head. I am a bit perplexed with this statement. It has some meaning for certain. Unless, Gaskell is toying with it. ???
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PatH, You say "I saw Preston as the sort of man who sees all exchanges with a woman in terms of sexual power." I think that's a helpful way of interpreting the sentence Joan brought to us and Bellamarie quoted above.
Bellamarie, I hope that Molly doesn't lose Roger's good opinion over this. Molly keeps telling Cynthia that she must tell Roger herself.
Joan, I am laughing at your suggestion that we diagram that sentence. I didn't notice it was one long sentence but remember when I first read it that I had a little trouble getting its meaning toward the end of it.
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'When Mr. Preston realizes that Molly has cleverly bested him, " he perceives that Molly is not aware she's a woman and he is a man." ? What did you make of this?'
When I read that I found myself wondering if Molly will make a man out of him, more than the man described so well by PatH, in post 377. Thanks for that, and then a light went on for me. How very clever. It's all about power when Mr Preston and Cynthia meet. Preston's machismo and Cynthia's sex appeal. What a match up. The irony. With a little love Mr Preston could make a good husband. He's a pretty solid guy. So are they all, that are attracted to Cynthia. I'm still guessing at her 'one heroic act.'
Let's talk about amazing grace. I almost fell off my chair laughing, Bellamarie, when I read this from your post:
'But, I won't ever give up hope for her, or Cynthia. After all, St. Paul, was knocked off his horse, and converted.'
I read about Clare helping the poor, and had to think of Jesus telling his disciples, 'what you do for the least of these (unfortunates) you do for me. And I had to wonder if Clare might not have been another Mother Teresa. The seed was planted in her. But all her life she has had to cope. I'm surprised at how unselfish she really is.
You also ask: 'But why has Clare and Lady Harriet shown so much dislike for Preston?'
I can't tell about Lady Harriet, but I feel that Clare is just taking a lead from her, as she does with everything when a Cumnor has spoken. There's so much we don't know about Clare. I think we can be certain that she knows that she has come between Molly and her father. Her expectations on getting married were so great. I have great sympathy for everyone. Except, perhaps, for Mrs Goodenough. For what. Scandal?
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I just read your post, Marcie. I see you too found that an interesting suggestion from PatH. I could see many implications for the novel in that idea of a sexual undercurrent, and how the Victorian reader might have felt about it, or read into it.
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Jonathan, you're very good at 180 degree interpretations of various characters. You keep me on my toes. Even if some are tongue in cheek, you provide insightful perspectives and often make me laugh.
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After Molly's secret (or not-so-secret) encounter with Preston she seems very affected by having to keep everything from her father. What do you think about her actions and way of thinking?
Now that she has taken Molly into her confidence, do you think that Cynthia misjudges Molly's feelings toward her?
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'Do you think that Cynthia misjudges Molly's feelings towards her?'
This is what I find most fascinating about the book. How these two girls, young women, relate to each other. And the author, obviously gave it much thought. And she has managed to make it quite complex. I find myself puzzling over it. The sentence JoanP posted is a good illustration:
Poor Molly. "Loaded with many such messages, which she felt that she should never deliver, not really knowing what she should say, hating the errand, not satisfied with Cynthia's manner of speaking about her relations to Roger, oppressed with shame and complicity in conduct which appeared to her deceitful, yet willing to bear all and brave all, if she could once set Cynthia in a straight path—in a clear space, and almost more pitiful to her friend's great distress and possible disgrace, than able to give her that love which involves perfect sympathy, Molly set out on her walk towards the appointed place."
I'll admit to doing 180 degree turns. I like to think they reflect the learning experiences I'm getting out of this discussion. I think I've got it right, and then I see a post which gives me a better interpretation, which I'm eager to acknowledge.
I thought Gaskell was saying something fine about Clare, with the statement: 'Mrs Gibson was always kind to poor people.' When I saw that Bellamarie found it humorous, that Gaskell was being facetious, I couldn't help seeing it that way myself. But now, after thinking about it, I'm going to do another 180.
Gaskell was a woman with many missions. And one of them was helping the poor. She couldn't help but be very serious about that. So, I'm sure she meant to point out something she admired in Clare. Does she have something in mind for her farther along in the plot, to make for a happy ending? As it turned out, this book has the strangest ending imaginable.
But it does end happily for both Molly and Cynthia. Now that shouldn't spoil it for anyone. It will end happily for me if I don't have to change my mind about that.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed that about Mr. Preston the first time he was introduced. We've all known men like that: if you're a woman, they condescend to you, put their hand on you, give you this "aren't you cute" smile. I've worked with them and if you make an important work-related point at a meeting, they turn and answer the nearest man, as if he had made it. If you tell them something when other no man is around, you have to repeat it several times before they "hear" it, and then, they're often hostile.
You can see, you've raised some bad memories of often being the only women in a man's field. But of course, I'm talking about a small minority of men: they just cause more than their share of problems for women. As far as marrying one, I'm guessing if you did, you'd be reduced to a shell of a person in a few years. Cynthia has had more of an escape than she knows.
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Jonathon,
With a little love Mr Preston could make a good husband. He's a pretty solid guy.
Hmmm....I'm pondering this statement and want to agree with you, but for some reason my womanly instincts are preventing me from jumping on whole heartedly. Just call it woman's instinct. I am not at all happy with how Preston treated the squire. He showed no respect, and I sensed some real anger there when Roger stepped in. He would LOVE to kill 3 birds with one stone by revealing Cynthia's engagement to him, it would break Roger's heart and show Roger his dear Cynthia was first promised to Preston, it would break Molly's heart because of what it would do to Roger, and it would shame Cynthia. So, I am going to hold up on the nice guy, good husband characterization for Mr. Preston.
JoanK., You are spot on in your post about Preston. He had the goods on Cynthia, and he was going to hold her to the engagement, knowing full well she hated him.
Now as for this: Jonathon, I read about Clare helping the poor, and had to think of Jesus telling his disciples, 'what you do for the least of these (unfortunates) you do for me. And I had to wonder if Clare might not have been another Mother Teresa. The seed was planted in her. But all her life she has had to cope. I'm surprised at how unselfish she really is.
I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read this.
The Blessed Teresa of Calcutta, M.C.,[1] commonly known as Mother Teresa (26 August 1910 – 5 September 1997), was an Albanian-born, Indian Roman Catholic Religious Sister.
Mother Teresa founded the Missionaries of Charity, a Roman Catholic religious congregation, which in 2012 consisted of over 4,500 sisters and is active in 133 countries. They run hospices and homes for people with HIV/AIDS, leprosy and tuberculosis; soup kitchens; dispensaries and mobile clinics; children's and family counseling programmes; orphanages; and schools. Members of the order must adhere to the vows of chastity, poverty and obedience, and the fourth vow, to give "Wholehearted and Free service to the poorest of the poor".
Mother Teresa was the recipient of numerous honours including the 1979 Nobel Peace Prize. In late 2003, she was beatified, the third step toward possible sainthood, giving her the title "Blessed Teresa of Calcutta". A second miracle credited to her intercession is required before she can be recognised as a saint by the Catholic Church.[1]
Admired honoured and respected throughout the world, she has not lacked detractors, nor was she immune from personal abuse and insults whether in her life or after her death, all of which she bore calmly.[2][3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa
In my personal, opinion Mother Teresa, and Clare have absolutely nothing in common. I can't see a St. Clare or a St. Hyacinth in the ending of this story. :o
Clare was not even able to give up her sitting room, to allow poor sick Helen to come for a visit to heal. Now I see the tongue in cheek Marcie speaks of. :P I still see Gaskell as being facetious, and still laugh at the humor, in insinuating Clare helped the poor. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Maxima Mea Culpa, if I turn out to be wrong, and something farther down the plot proves different.
JoanP., When I read the run on sentence, my OCD kicked in, and I had to almost tell myself to breathe....lolol
Jonathon, I agree, I like to see how others see the characters, and try to keep an open mind believe it or not, for possible things I have missed, or seeing them from a different perspective. As complex as these characters seem, as we draw near the end, I am seeing they have pretty much stayed true to form, as far as their character. What's that saying, " You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig."
Ciao for now~
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Jonathan, I had meant that your views are often 180 degrees from what some others are saying; not that you, yourself change your mind. Though I think it's wonderful to read a story so complex that we can change our minds about the characters while reading and talking about it.
I'm finding that Cynthia believes that Molly doesn't love her to the same extent as she did before Cynthia shared her secrets. Molly seems too open, generous, full of empathy and humility to be accused of changing her feelings toward Cynthia. Cynthia seems to fear most a lowering of good opinion toward her. She seems to assume that of everyone.
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Cynthia seems to fear most a lowering of good opinion toward her. She seems to assume that of everyone.
That's a key to Cynthia's behavior--her fear of disapproval.
Helping the poor: that was an expected duty of a gentlewoman at that time--to visit the poor in the area, and provide a small bit of relief for their problems. I'm not sure whether "she was always kind to poor people" is meant as a compliment or as sarcasm about Mrs. Gibson. She tends to put on a good show of doing what's expected, but she is also good at getting out of things she doesn't want to do, so I don't know how she really feels. Still, she did provide the bandages, so we have to give her that credit.
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Marcie,
Cynthia seems to fear most a lowering of good opinion toward her.
PatH., That's a key to Cynthia's behavior--her fear of disapproval.
This is true, so why then, does she continue to do things, that would cause others, to lower their opinion of her?
I went to Google looking for a bit of insight as to why people seek others approval and thought this was interesting.
http://www.testandcalc.com/Self_Defeating_Beliefs/bel1.asp
I highlighted a few things I myself thought about where Cynthia is concerned.
Finally, keep things in perspective. While you do not need approval, it is still desirable to have some people like and accept you. Could a few changes be to your advantage? If there are things about you to which people react negatively - slovenly appearance, habitual lateness, losing your temper, aggressiveness or other tendencies - and you dislike the disapproval, consider making some positive changes
Approval, though, becomes a problem when you exaggerate your desire for it into a necessity. In other words, you tell yourself that you must have it in order to feel good about yourself and be happy.
If you worry about how others see you, this shows that you do not accept yourself. You are, instead, rating yourself and relying on other people to confirm that you are OK. When you are not getting the love and respect you think you 'need', this plugs into self-doubts which already exist in your own mind.
My impression of Cynthia has been, she wants what she wants, does not care how it effects others, and when she sees it has a negative reaction from others, she overreacts to their disapproval. Her reality is not that, of concern for others whatsoever. She lacks in self esteem, probably due to the fact her mother has not been there to help her develop into a young lady, with self esteem and self confidence. As Dr. Phil says, "The most pivotal person in a child's life to build their self confidence, is the same sex parent." Clare has failed her.
Ciao for now~
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'Clare has failed her.' That has to be thought about, Bellamarie. And your post illustrates the psychological complexities of Cynthia's behavior.
I'm a bit surprised that you think that 'Mr Preston showed no respect' in that encounter with the squire. It was my impression that the old squire was expecting too much.
Marcie, I'm changing my mind all the time with this read. Here I am, almost at the end of the book for the second time, and the ending seems different somehow. I worry that anything I say might be a spoiler for someone else. Well, I'll say it anyways. This is all the dream of young Molly, after she fell asleep in Clare's bed at the Towers. The dream of a very precocious child. Or is it mine?
Bellamarie, have you read Mother Teresa's Come Be My Light? What a spiritual journey!
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Jonathon, NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! PLEASE tell me you did not just give the ending away. I'll never forgive you if this is so. You are truly as bad as Gaskell, playing with our minds.
This is all the dream of young Molly, after she fell asleep in Clare's bed at the Towers. The dream of a very precocious child. Or is it mine?
Whether the squire was expecting too much or not, Preston showed unacceptable behavior, and quite a bit of anger, with the squire and Roger. Let's just say, I would not want "MY" daughter to have a husband like him.
Okay, I shall begin a few of the next chapters for tomorrow's read, since Jonathon piqued my interest. I will NOT finish the book before scheduled time, as much as I may want to.
Ciao for now~
p.s. 4 - 7 more inches of snow for our area throughout Tues. We have at least 4 already, so I fear the forecasters are going to be a bit off on their predictions. Another snow day for school I suspect, which means yet one more fully loaded daycare day for me. Ughhhh.....think Spring!!
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Jonathan, you don't disappoint! LOL re the dream.
Pat and Bellamarie, yes, "a key to Cynthia's behavior--her fear of disapproval." You ask a good question, Bellamarie, about why Cynthia can't change her ways since she doesn't want especially, certain people to disapprove of her. If she lacks self esteem, it could be why she makes poor choices.
I am finding more humor in Chapters 46 and 47. Do you find that Mrs. Gaskell inserted humorous characterizations of the various speakers amid the gossip?
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Jonathon,
have you read Mother Teresa's Come Be My Light? What a spiritual journey!
No, I have not read this. I have followed Mother Teresa for many years. Was very saddened by her death. She is my first and foremost inspiration, of how as a woman, I need to draw strength from her sacrifices, and do more for others. I will download her book, since you recommend it!
marcie, I think what irritates me the most, is how Cynthia KNOWS and SEES better choices, yet even after contemplating it, she takes the easier way out, deception, and when that is revealed, she flees.
Ciao for now~
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Can you imagine Cynthia saying:'I am so glad to be free.' I found that revealing. Gaskell has certainly taken her through a lot of unhappiness.
Bellamarie, If you haven't read Come Be My Light, be prepared for the surprise of your life. And you'll find an end to your sadness. Death got Teresa out of the dark valley she was travelling.
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Bellamarie, I'll try to go back and read some passages in the light of what you say "Cynthia KNOWS and SEES better choices, yet even after contemplating it, she takes the easier way out, deception, and when that is revealed, she flees."
Jonathan, you say "Gaskell has certainly taken her through a lot of unhappiness." I agree. Cynthia was weighed down for years by the choice she made at age 16. Preston seems to have said things then that implied her mother wanted her to come to him for money. She was "talked into it" by him, although another young person (such as Molly) likely would not have been.
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Do you find that Mrs. Gaskell inserted humorous characterizations of the various speakers amid the gossip?
Oh yes, Marcie! Interspersed in the most serious moments, Cynthia's unhappy childhood, Molly's stress, her loyalty to Cynthia - and Roger, Osborne's illness, etc. - there is the steady stream of inane remarks! Easy to see why Molly finds these conversations with Mrs. G. So frustrating -particularly when she is upset about other more pressing situations.
From Mrs. Gibson:
- "Molly is like me -never less alone than when alone, as one of the great authors expressed it."
- Mrs. G invites Molly to the Book Society meeting, telling her she "thought reading a waste of time."
- Always serves dessert, doesn't eat it, but it looks well...makes the servant understand they are a family of position.
Mrs. G. isn't the only one Mrs. Gaskell portrays as laughable, though. (Were any of them men?) Come to think of it, it is only the Hollingford unmarried women, and widows, (including Mrs. Gibson) who come across as the objects of Mrs. Gaskell's ridicule.
No wonder Dr. Gibson dismisses Miss Browning's assertions as "ridiculous."
Do you agree with Miss Browning on this:
"Don't repeat evil on any authority unless you can do some good by speaking about it."
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
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You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 5 Feb.12-Feb.21
Feb. 12 - Feb.18}
Chapter 41. Gathering Clouds
Chapter 42. Storm Bursts
Chapter 43. Cynthia's Confession
Chapter 44. Molly Gibson To The Rescue
Chapter 45. Confidences
Chapter 46. Hollingford Gossips
Chapter 47. Scandal And Its Victims
Feb. 19-21}
Chapter 48. An Innocent Culprit
Chapter 49 Molly Gibson Finds A Champion
Chapter 50 Cynthia At Bay
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Some Things to Think About
Feb. 19-21 Chapters XLVIII-L
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER XLVIII. An Innocent Culprit
1. How does one earn the title of "innocent culprit"? Does this mean that although you are the culprit, you didn't mean it? So that makes one innocent?? Mollie is very aware of what she agreed to do for Cynthia. Has her immaturity hid the resulting damage to her reputation?
2. How do you feel about the way Mollie is treated by her father? He really is believing what Ms Browning over Mollie's explanations of the incidents that occurred. He makes the mistake of calling her "child" which she objects to strongly. She answers with unhappy words due to his thinking she is still a child.
CHAPTER XLIX. Molly Gibson Finds A Champion
1. Is this first paragraph a nicely written introduction to the Cumnor family so that one of them can take up Mollie's cause? And to also give us a better picture of Lord Cumnor? I do like this man! The old lady, the author calls him. I really like the way the author presents Lord Cumnor and the Squire Hamley. I see them as very caring people. Seems there is a true humbleness in both of these families.
2. How do you like the way Lady Cumnor listens to her husband's gossip without comment but then she delivers a "homily" to her family on how wrong it is to run down another person and how poor the conversations are when one does so?
CHAPTER L Cynthia At Bay
1. In Chapter 49, we were apprised of the condition of Lady Cumnor and her slow recovery. In this chapter, the author brings up Mrs. Gibson and her recovery from influenza which has also been slow. She is coming along but still resting and in conversation with her daughters about Lady Harriet's invitation to the Towers. She stills knows nothing about the gossip about Mollie nor does she know that her daughter instigated the whole scene. Good grief, what do you think she will say about this debacle?
2. And here in Chapter 50, we find another lady recovering slowly. Well, both of opening paragraphs, bring us a good family setting with different reactions to the gossip going around the little village of Hollingford. Does social standing come in here?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net),
PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), ADOANNIE (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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Those examples of humor are good one's Joan. Several times I laughed out loud while reading a sentence in the book.
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Third time is a charm....I lost my last two attempts to post. Grrr....
1. How does one earn the title of "innocent culprit"? Does this mean that although you are the culprit, you didn't mean it? So that makes one innocent?? Mollie is very aware of what she agreed to do for Cynthia. Has her immaturity hid the resulting damage to her reputation?
I am not so sure I saw Molly as an "innocent culprit," in this entire situation. Yes, Cynthia did trick her and Preston about the meeting, but Molly had decided to get involved herself. I just feel it was wrong of Cynthia to allow Molly to be involved, she should have done it herself, or involved an adult, which of course she did not want to do, to protect her own self image, not caring what it would do to Molly's.
I was a bit annoyed with how Molly adamantly refused to give her father all the details. He has just come from being told his daughter is the talk of the townspeople, and that her reputation is in grave danger, and even though he has all the faith in the world of Molly's innocence, he deserves to be told everything, but instead Molly puts Cynthia and Roger's feeling above her father's and her own.
Mr. Gibson referring to Molly as a "child" even though she did not like it was because he could see her actions were immature, foolish and childlike. He clearly saw Cynthia took advantage of Molly's innocence, and loyalty to her and Roger. Molly should have let Cynthia deal with this herself or get an adult involved. He could see how Cynthia allowed Molly to put herself in danger, by meeting with Preston alone. I felt sorry for Mr. Gibson learning that Molly made such a bad judgement in this entire situation, and that Cynthia allowed it to happen.
Mr. Gibson's only comfort was in knowing Clare had no involvement in this mess, because he would have blamed himself if she had, considering deciding to marry her, was to protect Molly from such a thing.
Why does Gaskell use the word heroine for Molly, and Cynthia is this situation?
Mr. Gibson, "Well, all I can say is, never be the heroine of a mystery that you can avoid, if you can't help being an accessory. Then, I suppose, I must yield to your wishes and let this scandal wear itself out without any notice from me?" pg 481
Lady Harriet, "I think it is much more likely that Clare's own daughter—that pretty pawky Miss Kirkpatrick—is the real heroine of this story," said Lady Harriet. "She always looks like a heroine of genteel comedy; and those young ladies were capable of a good deal of innocent intriguing, if I remember rightly. " pg. 487
I am assuming Gaskell does not intend it to be as the true meaning, someone who commits an heroic act, but rather it is being referred to the main person in the situation. I did not see Molly getting involved the least bit heroic. She put herself in harm's way, and did not realize how it would effect her reputation or her father or Clare's, for that matter. I saw this very foolish.
Ciao for now~
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BELLAMARIE What came to my mind about the word "heroine" used by Lady Harriet was that she really meant was that Cynthia was "the star" of her own comedy.
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Annie, I agree. Gakell is not at all using the word "heroine," as I would interpret as heroic. Lady Harriet is not at all happy with what she has learned, and shows how much she really dislikes Cynthia.
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There have been several references since the start - before she left home for those two years in France- the ladies at the Tower didn't think much of Cynthia. She was just a young teen back then. What was that about? Lady Harriet's feelings for Mr. Preston, I'll guess. I keep expecting to hear more about that affair, but we're running out of pages. Don't you think there's a story there? Why was she packed up and sent off to school in France?
Poor Molly - she sees Cynthia for what she is, but has given her word to help her break off from Mr. Preston. Innocently, she does what she promised, but the townladies misinterpret what they've seen and so she becomes the culprit - the talk of the town.
Bella, Molly is a person of her word. I thought her father came to understand that after their talk...even admired her for it.
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“he grasped her more and more tightly in his vice-like hands, till she made a little involuntary sound of pain.”
" his vice-like hands" - did you howl at this? Yet another example of the need for a good editor, a proof- reader! I'd give anything to learn the reaction of Mrs. Gaskell's readers at the time.
Oops...I stand corrected. Please accept my apology, Mrs. Gaskell...in the US, we call it a vise, therefore vise-like. But in England "vice-like" - perfectly acceptable. Collins English Dictionary (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/vicelike#vicelike_1)
That was such a painful scene between father and his little girl, wasn't it? He had never hurt her before, so we know how upset he was. But Molly came into her own as an adult when she stood up to him. Painful! Growing up is painful...especially when it happens all at once.
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JoanP., Yes, Molly is a person of her word, but I just felt at that particular time, she owed it to her father to give him the entire story. He deserved it. He knows she has this misguided, undeserving loyalty to Cynthia, that is what has gotten her in this entire mess. So he may have admired her for keeping her word, but I don't think he is happy with how she has allowed her loyalty, to cause her so much disgrace.
I think at least once in every parents lifetime they experience the frustration Mr. Gibson was feeling, causing him to grip Molly's wrists to the point of her feeling pain. I was not the least bit concerned for her, or for him going beyond gripping her.
"But Molly came into her own as an adult when she stood up to him. Painful! Growing up is painful...especially when it happens all at once."
Hmmm...I'm not sure I saw it that way, but maybe so. I just haven't yet gotten to the point of seeing Molly as an adult.
Ciao for now~
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JoanP:That's an excellent observation you made about unmarried women (and widows) being the butt of Mrs. Gaskell's jokes, the ridiculous characters that we laugh at and do not take seriously, while the men are not portrayed this way. The men are flawed and blind to what is going on (The Squire, Mr. Gibson, Roger), but we take them seriously. There has long been prejudice against women who don't marry, as though they are losers and of less value than married women. In my family and others close to me said there is nothing worse than not getting married and being an "old maid," a spinster. Today I think we are overcoming this prejudice, and not being married ever seems perfectly acceptable, I am happy to say. Condoleeza Rice comes to mind as someone highly successful and loved and respected who never married.
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I think back in the 1800's & 1900's women's only goal, was to marry and have babies, to carry on the bloodlines. So if you did not marry you were looked on as you mentioned a spinster or old maid. Today, things are so different. Women are successful in their own rights, whether they are married, single, career minded, or have no children. I just was watching The Talk and the ladies were talking about an interview Jennifer Anniston did with Gloria Steinem, and how Jennifer felt society puts pressure on her to be married and have children. The ladies did not agree with her, and said they felt it is Jennifer putting those expectations on herself. In today's world, anything is acceptable, I mean you mentioned Condie Rice who is successful and single, but even though Hillary Clinton is married with one child, she is possibly the next presidential candidate...foo on anyone who thinks women need to be married or have children, to account for something.
As for making fun of the women in the book, I do have to point out I think Gaskell has not been one sided, or sex directed with her jokes or criticisms. She made Coxe and Roger out to be red headed oofs, even though both seem to be successful, with poor Coxe leaving with his tail between his legs, as fast as he came. ;D I think Gaskell left egg on Preston's face, after Molly was finished with him, or as he pointed out to Lady Harriet, " She had come off conqueror, he the vanquished." ;) She made me laugh out loud describing Lord Cumnor, as a gossip as much as the women.
" In short, if ever a peer was an old woman, Lord Cumnor was that peer; but he was a very good-natured old woman, and rode about on his stout old cob with his pockets full of halfpence for the children, and little packets of snuff for the old people. Like an old woman, too he enjoyed an afternoon cup of tea in his wife's sitting-room, and over his gossip's beverage he would repeat all that he had learnt in the day." :o
I've always felt men like to, and do, as much gossiping as women, they just don't like to admit to it, or it be pointed out as gossip. :D
I think Gaskell has had fun with all of her characters, at one time or the other. Or maybe I just have a sic sense of humor.
Ciao for now~
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Lucy, until you mentioned him, I hadn't thought of the Squire as one of the flawed men who doesn't quite know what's going on...but the more we read about him, I can see that.
Shall we place Mr. Coxe in the same category? He certainly had no idea where he stood with Cynthia when he tossed aside his ardor for Molly, as soon as he saw Cynthia's pretty face.
Bella - you mention Mr. Coxe's red hair. Is Mrs. Gaskell making fun of him? Or is she simply repeating the 19th century attitude towards redheads? I'm going to try to find something about that. I remember in her novel, Cranford, she referred to the "carroty " color of a young man's hair.
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I liked Lord Cumnor too, Annie - and the interest he takes in those who live on the estate.
Very good-natured, visiting over tea, listening to the local gossip. I'm finding the Lords and Ladies more level-headed and likeable than the gossips in the village. Does this reflect Mrs. Gaskell's attitude as well? Notice that neither Lady Harriet nor Lady Cumnor believed Sheepshanks' story about Molly and Mr.P - as the ladies in the village were quick to believe.
We knew from the start that Lady Harriet liked Molly - but it took a lot of nerve for Lady Harriet to ask Mr. Preston directly, for the truth about his engagement to Molly. Wasn't she interested in him romantically at one time?
Did you notice Mr. Preston's reply to her question about being engaged to Miss Gibson? -"I should be so fortunate," he said. He really was impressed with Molly...as a woman!
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Yes, I think Coxe can be included for sure, but the implication is that he will marry and settle down as Preston may or may not? I fear with the latter there may have been unacceptable actions that have not been revealed. The reason Lady Harriett doesn't like him is that he has assumed intimacy with her as an equal, which I guess we know is not to be alowed.
I also think we may find out more about Cynthia's unacceptable behavior that has not yet been revealed. Molly has solved the problem with the letters, but Cynthia is not at ease with her. There is tension in the household. I feel we are waiting for the other shoe to drop.
The question of illness is very very puzzling. I don't think the Victorians had worse diseases than we have, but there were few remedies that were effective so people lingered in a state of ill health longer. On the other hand, they died suddenly and younger. But beyond that there was a prevailing attitude toward illness that made people feel that health was precarious and people had to be coddled regarding any illness. It was part of a social sensibility, doing what was socially acceptable. Of course there were all kinds of myths about illness, that night air caused illness, that certain foods and herbs prevented or cured it, that people should not exert themselves.
I wonder what that operation was the Lady Cumnor underwent. It couldn't have been too extensive or it would have killed her. But it entitles her to a lot of attention and pampering and allows her to pontificate to others about how people should behave, not necessarily how the listeners should behave, which Clare fails to understand.
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Here are a few quotes that show Gaskell used her humor with Coxe, not only for his looks and red hair, but also for his actions.
Mr. Coxe was a boy of nineteen or so, with brilliant red hair, and a tolerably red face, of both of which he was very conscious and much ashamed.
Major Coxe was not quite sure whether Mr. Gibson was not laughing at him in his sleeve;
"You are ridiculing my feelings, Mr. Gibson. Do you forget that you yourself were young once?"
Cynthia speaking of Mr. Cox: "Please, Mr. Gibson, hear my side of the story before you speak so hardly to me. I did not mean to—to flirt. I merely meant to make myself agreeable,—I can't help doing that,—and that goose of a Mr. Coxe seems to have fancied I meant to give him encouragement.
And to think of that stupid little fellow making all this mischief! He pretended to take it to heart, as if he had loved me for years instead of only for days. I daresay only for hours if the truth were told."
I shall hate red-haired people for the rest of my life. To think of such a man as that being the cause of your father's displeasure with me!"
Oh! I wish Roger was at home, and rich, and could marry me at once, and carry me away from that man! If I'd thought of it, I really believe I would have taken poor red-haired Mr. Coxe."
I do believe Clare has some humorous comments about Coxe, but I tired looking for them. I did find these funny.
Ciao for now~
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I absolutely loved how Lady Harriet said, "if it's my little friend Molly, I'll go to church and forbid the banns." She has truly taken Molly under her wing, and will move heaven and earth to clear Molly's good name. She could care less is Cynthia would end up with Preston, but not her Molly!
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2. How do you like the way Lady Cumnor listens to her husband's gossip without comment but then she delivers a "homily" to her family on how wrong it is to run down another person and how poor the conversations are when one does so?
I absolutely laughed out loud when I read this. She wants to hear all the town gossip for sure, but then she acts all high and mighty and gives the "homily," more of a lecture on how not to gossip. ::) ::)
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But, remember, Lady Cumnor ends up on Mollie's side along with her daughter, Harriett! That's the positive side of this story, isn't it?
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Yes, Lady Harriet is now Molly's champion, and it's interesting to see how she "rescues" Molly. She walks into town with Molly and makes sure they are seen everywhere by everybody, afterwards remarking to herself "Hollingford is not the place I take it to be, if it doesn't veer round in Miss Gibson's favour after my to-day's trotting of that child about."
Lady Harriet's approval seems to be enough to make the town discount all the gossip.!
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Yes, Annie, I was happy to see those who refused to believe the gossip. Afterall, Molly has had a stellar reputation in the town. We can't forget Miss Phoebe's kindness to Molly while others were snubbing her and whispering:
"Only Miss Phœbe would seek out Molly with even more than her former tenderness; and this tried Molly's calmness more than all the slights put together.The soft hand, pressing hers under the table,—the continual appeals to her, so as to bring her back into the conversation, touched Molly almost to shedding tears."
I especially snickered a bit after reading this conversation between Miss Browning, Lady Harriet and Phoebe:
"What is all this I hear about my little friend Molly Gibson and Mr. Preston?"
"Oh, Lady Harriet! have you heard of it? We are so sorry!"
"Sorry for what?"
"I think, begging your ladyship's pardon, we had better not say any more till we know how much you know," said Miss Browning.
"Nay," replied Lady Harriet, laughing a little, "I shan't tell what I know till I am sure you know more. Then we'll make an exchange if you like."
"I'm afraid it's no laughing matter for poor Molly," said Miss Browning, shaking her head. "People do say such things!"
"But I don't believe them; indeed I don't," burst in Miss Phœbe, half crying.
No more will I, then," said Lady Harriet, taking the good lady's hand.
"It's all very fine, Phœbe, saying you don't believe them, but I should like to know who it was that convinced me, sadly against my will, I am sure."
"I only told you the facts as Mrs. Goodenough told them me, sister; but I'm sure if you had seen poor patient Molly as I have done, sitting up in a corner of a room, looking at the Beauties of England and Wales till she must have been sick of them, and no one speaking to her; and she as gentle and sweet as ever at the end of the evening, though maybe a bit pale—facts or no facts, I won't believe anything against her."
So there sate Miss Phœbe, in tearful defiance of facts.
"And, as I said before, I'm quite of your opinion," said Lady Harriet.
Only remember, Miss Phœbe, it's you and I against the world, in defence of a distressed damsel."
"Don Quixote and Sancho Panza!" said she to herself as she ran lightly down Miss Browning's old-fashioned staircase. :D
"Now, I don't think that's pretty of you, Phœbe," said Miss Browning in some displeasure, as soon as she was alone with her sister. "First, you convince me against my will, and make me very unhappy; and I have to do unpleasant things, all because you've made me believe that certain statements are true; and then you turn round and cry, and say you don't believe a word of it all, making me out a regular ogre and backbiter. No! it's of no use. I shan't listen to you." So she left Miss Phœbe in tears, and locked herself up in her own room.
Miss Browning did not much like coming off looking like the betrayer, judge, jury, and the gossiper, while Miss Phoebe looks the sympathetic, innocent one. :o
Ciao for now~
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Not only did Lady Harriet go right to Mr. Preston and get the truth out of him_ but marches the girl through the town to clear her name. I'm wondering what Dr. Gibson would have done if he knew the truth. Molly insisted to him that if he found out the truth, Cynthia would make good on her threat to run off to Russia as a governess. She should have gone to Lady Harriet in the first place...as she threated to do if Mr. Preston refused to return the letters. Once he returned them, Molly felt she couldn't reveal the truth - felt she owed him that. We should all have friends like Molly!
I confess that I find her almost too good to be true. Is this what Eliz. Gaskell is saying to us? That we are all sometimes more like Cynthia - not really bad, but not nearly as good as Molly? I wish sometimes she'd do something to show she's human, not quite so perfect. I've been waiting for her to do something to reveal that she too is human - like lie to Roger to make him forget Cynthia. I see he will return in the next chapters. Maybe, just maybe, Molly will reveal her feelings for him.
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Annie -
"Lady Cumnor ends up on Mollie's side along with her daughter, Harriett!"
Wouldn't our Clare be consumed with jealousy to see the ladies of the Towers standing with Molly - in a matter she has known nothing about? We're told that Clare too has been ill for quite some time. I believe the word "influenza" was used to describe her long and lingering illness, which kept her indoors and out of the loop.
Lucy, I find these illnesses puzzling too. It seems that Dr. Gibson and others do not act act as if these illnesses are contagious. Is it because they don't know what contagion is? Clearly a cure is not yet known...except to linger, rest and let it run its course - or not. We've seen enough death to be concerned about anyone who comes into contact with someone who is ill.
What do you think they are suffereing from? We know there is a cholera epidemic at this time. Mrs. Gaskell refers to influenza. It doesn't seem to be small pox, no one is talking about consumption.
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JoanP., I was thinking the exact thoughts you expressed. Is Molly too good to be true?
I thought about this, after reading how she reacts, after she realizes how what she did has caused shame to her reputation, and how it was so upsetting to her father. When does an individual say, enough is enough, and not be a pillar of strength, kind, good, and loyal? I don't think I could have been as nonchalant as Molly was about the gossip. I seriously questioned, whether I could have gone into a room with women, knowing they were whispering and snubbing me openly. Has Gaskell, made her unbelievable to the reader? I know many very kind, loving, Christian women, and I tried to imagine them as Molly, and to be honest, I could see them cracking under all the stress Molly has been given... from holding everyone's secrets, helping sick people, living with Clare, cleaning up after Cynthia, watching Roger go off to a far off land worrying about his health, dealing with the deaths of loved ones, take care of the squire, being forced to put away all her mother's comfort items, and losing the closeness of her father. Seriously, for Gaskell to give us the impression Molly is young and immature, she sure has loaded her up with the weight of more burdens, than a lumberjack, yet she is seen as if nothing makes her falter.
Interesting, how you mention Roger returning, and if Molly would do anything underhanded to win his love. I would be shocked if Gaskell did that. But then again, can Molly stand by and allow Roger and Cynthia marry? I don't see Cynthia ever marrying Roger, so I don't think Molly would have to do anything underhanded to win his love. I sense once he sees what all Molly has sacrificed for everyone he loves, he just may choose her. An obvious ending for me, since the first time Molly and Roger met, as far as I am concerned. But what do I know.....Gaskell loves surprising us!
Ciao for now~
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So many good points being brought up here. Illness: Lucylibr and JoanP, you raise interesting questions. No, they didn't have any real notion of contagion at the time, though they thought some illnesses, like scarlet fever, were contagious. Treatment was pretty arbitrary; in The Moonstone, written 3 years later than Wives and Daughters, and taking place about 1848, there is a dramatic crisis when the discredited doctor saves the life of his patron by rejecting the "lowering" treatments of the other doctors (ammonia and other stuff) and substituting "raising" treatments--brandy and the like. Neither would help any real sickness.
Women seem to have been regarded as particularly frail (that's assuming they weren't working class and had to keep going). Of course if you keep someone lying in bed to recuperate, they are going to lose strength, and take longer to get well. I must admit that if my days consisted of trimming bonnets and tending to my netting (what did they do with all those craft items they kept making?) and listening to my stepmother's vapid conversation, I might take to my bed with the megrims too.
I was a little surprised to see such a specific description of Osborne's illness--aortic aneurism.
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'I was a little surprised to see such a specific description of Osborne's illness--aortic aneurism.'
Interesting observation, PatH. I think that's another example of men being treated differently than women in the book. I'm thinking of Lucy's remark that men in the book are not treated as ridiculous charaters the way some women are. Just look at the suitors that are attracted by Cynthia. A clever land agent. A doctor in training. A man in science. A lawyer. Granted, they are all made to look a bit foolish.
A woman's illness often comes with some hints of fancied or imaginary symptoms or causes. I'm inclined to see plot complications and the author's vexing uncertainties about the fates of her characters. In fact she is painting herself into a corner. Or perhaps some of her people are pushing her into it. With one too good to be true, and another saying: 'If I'd thought of it, I really believe I would have taken poor red- haired Mr Coxe. I love the way you find the humor in the book, Bellamarie.
I keep wondering if Mr Coxe will turn out to be one of the red-headed Irish Hamleys who will inherit if the squire's direct heirs all die. But we'll never know. I'm not even sure if I can really distinguish between vise and vice. lol. Both are combined in her father's grip.
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Have you noticed how many characters are seen and described as 'poor', sooner or later? The poor squire. Poor Molly. Poor Roger. Poor Clare. And especially poor Cynthia. In most cases it would seem to be the author's feelings finding expression. Except for the Cumnors, young and old.
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Despite a somewhat sedentary life, Molly seems to walk a lot, even on the squire's estate when she is visiting there. And she likes riding horses. Since there were no cars and her father did not own a "fly," which Clare wants him to acquire, walking or riding horseback was the only way to go. There was the sedan chair in Cranford and it appears in this novel at least once when the ladies go to a party.
I think they must have suffered lots of upper rspiratory infections that could turn to pneumonia and other complications. The climate was damp and cool and houses were not well heated. You were either cold or roasted by the fire, which I can remember as a child visiting relatives in rural Maine.
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Somewhere Molly and Cynthia are contrasted--Molly not happy if she doesn't get her daily walk, and Cynthia not caring about it.
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Well, we start a new section today, and it's a doozy. Chapters 51, "Troubles Never Come Alone" through 57, Bridal Visits and Adieux. I'll leave the old questions up a bit in case you want them, but here are some for the first part of this chunk.
51. Troubles Never Come Alone
Do you believe that “Troubles never come alone?”
At the very end of her conversation with Mr. Gibson, Cynthia has a moment of regret about giving up Roger. “Yet often in after years, when it was too late, she wondered, and strove to penetrate the inscrutable mystery of ‘what would have been.’” What do you think that tells you about Cynthia’s fate and future life?
Did you expect Osborne to die?
52. Squire Hamley’s Sorrow
Why does Mrs. Gaskell make Osborne’s wife a Frenchwoman?
Is Squire Hamley’s grief realistically described?
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Before going on to the next chapters, I wanted to discuss a bit about Cynthia's return. "Cynthia At Bay" She comes home and shuns Molly straight off. Yes, one more secret Cynthia has, that Mr. Henderson has proposed to her and she refused him, because she is engaged to Roger. REALLY?? I thought all along Cynthia has said it is NOT an engagement, and she was free to choose another if she wished to?? Clare seems so disappointed that Cynthia refused Henderson. He is the perfect catch, in Clare's eyes.
Then Cynthia is finally confronted by Mr. Gibson:
Yes! I know that Molly knows it all, and that she has had to bear slander and ill words for your sake, Cynthia. But she refused to tell me more."
"She told you that much, did she?" said Cynthia, aggrieved
I could not help it," said Molly.
"She didn't name your name," said Mr. Gibson. "At the time I believe she thought she had concealed it—but there was no mistaking who it was."
"Why did she speak about it at all?" said Cynthia, with some bitterness. Her tone—her question stirred up Mr. Gibson's passion.
"It was necessary for her to justify herself to me—I heard my daughter's reputation attacked for the private meetings she had given to Mr. Preston—I came to her for an explanation. There's no need to be ungenerous, Cynthia, because you've been a flirt and a jilt, even to the degree of dragging Molly's name down into the same mire."
Cynthia lifted her bowed-down head, and looked at him.
"You say that of me, Mr. Gibson? Not knowing what the circumstances are, you say that?"
He had spoken too strongly: he knew it. But he could not bring himself to own it just at that moment. The thought of his sweet innocent Molly, who had borne so much patiently, prevented any retractation of his words at the time.
"Yes!" he said, "I do say it. You cannot tell what evil constructions are put upon actions ever so slightly beyond the bounds of maidenly propriety. I do say that Molly has had a great deal to bear, in consequence of this clandestine engagement of yours, Cynthia—there may be extenuating circumstances, I acknowledge—but you will need to remember them all to excuse your conduct to Roger Hamley, when he comes home. I asked you to tell me the full truth, in order that until he comes, and has a legal right to protect you, I may do so." No answer. "It certainly requires explanation," continued he. "Here are you,—engaged to two men at once to all appearances!" Still no answer. "To be sure, the gossips of the town haven't yet picked out the fact of Roger Hamley's being your accepted lover; but scandal has been resting on Molly, and ought to have rested on you, Cynthia—for a concealed engagement to Mr. Preston—necessitating meetings in all sorts of places unknown to your friends."
"No! you have prejudged me; you have spoken to me as you had no right to speak. I refuse to give you my confidence, or accept your help. People are very cruel to me"—her voice trembled for a moment—"I did not think you would have been. But I can bear it."
This conversation really upset me, Cynthia seems furious of the fact Molly has said anything of her secret, yet she seems such the victim of her own circumstance. It was time someone called her out on this, and let her know the shame she has brought upon Molly. Although....Molly could have stayed out of it. Cynthia is playing the victim and the martyr here. Ughhh....and yet Molly of course wants to protect Cynthia. What people have been cruel to Cynthia? The whole town is gossiping about Molly!
Ciao for now~
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Cynthia is at her worst here, isn't she? To be fair, she probably didn't know about the gossip about Molly until Gibson told her, but she doesn't seem concerned about it, though it's exactly the treatment she won't put up with when directed at her.
By the way, a secret engagement was considered scandalous then, even if the two parties were behaving properly and were serious in meaning to marry. If you've read Emma, you've seen another example. Jilting someone once you had promised to marry them was also much more serious then--really dishonorable behavior.
We don't have to move on until people want to.
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Pat and Bellamarie, I agree that Cyntha seems at her worst here. I first thought that she sounded so ungrateful after what Molly did for her. But in re-reading, perhaps she and Mr. Gibson got off on the wrong foot when he says: "Yes! I know that Molly knows it all, and that she has had to bear slander and ill words for your sake, Cynthia. But she refused to tell me more." That made it sound that Molly broke her word to Cynthia and told her father everything.
Then, when Mr. Gibson tells her that Molly thought that she had successfully concealed her identity in the little she told him, Cynthia asks him why Molly brought it up at all. If Cynthia didn't know about the rumors regarding Molly and the fact that Mr. Gibson forced Molly to tell him whether they were true or not, it could be seen as a fair question though not asked graciously.
Could Mr. Gibson have handled it better? Should he have waited to speak to Cynthia when he had his anger under more control regarding Molly's predicament? Mr. Gibson has never spoken to Cynthia like this before.
She feels like this is the end for her. It's almost the reverse of a quote from Jane Austen's PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, "My good opinion, once lost, is lost forever." In Cynthia's case, she feels that once a good opinion of HER is lost, it's lost forever. Her actions and feelings are immature. As you say, PatH, she doesn't seem to even see the situation she's created for Molly. Her concern is for herself.
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In the next chapter, in her private interview with Mr. Gibson, Cynthia does show some awareness of the difficult position she has put Molly in. "Those unkind gossips! To visit Molly with their hard words! Oh, dear! I think life is very dreary."
She says something else striking: "Oh, sir, I think if I had been differently brought up I should not have had the sore angry heart I have."
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I was touched when Cynthia told Mr. G she loved him better than she had loved Roger. To me, that revealed how deeply affected she had been by the loss of her own father. Will Cynthia ever find anyone who will love her on her own terms? Unconditionally? Someone who will overlook her bad behavior and still maintain a good opinion of her? I don't see that - which is why I feel such sympathy for her in the future. Can't see her learning any lessons from all this.
I have to keep reminding myself of the period in which Mrs. Gaskell wrote this book. Pat reminds us how secret engagements were scandalous at the time...and here we see Mrs. Gibson reminding Cynthia that it is scandalous to break an engagement without mutual consent. (Cynthia doesn't even want to see Roger). No wonder she feels the need to run away. Trouble will follow her no matter where she goes.
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So Dr. Gibson was able to spot Osborne's condition! I remember when he questioned the elder Dr. Nicholl's prognosis ...I remember thinking Gibson was probably right...but how did he spot an aneurism at this time? Mrs. Gaskell must have been aware of such a possibility - from her own doctors perhaps. While reading these last pages she wrote, I'm wondering if she feels her strength leaving her - as Osborne did when he paid that last visit to The Gibsons...looking for the doctor.
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I don't know how he spotted the aneurysm either, but this isn't the only example of him being right when the experts were wrong. It also happened with whatever was wrong with Lady Cumnor (which led to her surgery in London).
The introduction to my book says that Mrs. Gaskell's health had broken down from the exhaustion she suffered during her efforts to relieve starving millworkers (who had been thrown out of work by the disruption in the cotton trade caused by our Civil War) and this may have contributed to her very sudden death. So she might very well have felt presentiments.
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Well.....all I can say is that these chapters were predictable, but lots of fun to read. Gaskell is hard at work trying to make the readers see good in Cynthia and Clare, now that we are getting to the end of the book. And yes, it appears Gaskell has decided to make it a happily ever after for Cynthia.
Now all we need is for Molly & Roger to find their way to each other and all is well that ends well.
It was so obvious to me, that Cynthia would marry Henderson. And it was nice to see this:
"Now I won't have you classing Roger Hamley and Mr. Preston together in the same sentence. One was as much too bad for me as the other is too good. Now I hope that man in the garden is the juste milieu,—I'm that myself, for I don't think I'm vicious, and I know I'm not virtuous."
"Do you really like him enough to marry him?" asked Molly earnestly. "Do think, Cynthia. It won't do to go on throwing your lovers off; you give pain that I'm sure you do not mean to do,—that you cannot understand."
"Perhaps I can't. I'm not offended. I never set up for what I am not, and I know I'm not constant. I've told Mr. Henderson so—" She stopped, blushing and smiling at the recollection.
"You have! and what did he say?"
"That he liked me just as I was; so you see he's fairly warned. Only he's a little afraid, I suppose,—for he wants me to be married very soon, almost directly, in fact. But I don't know if I shall give way,—you hardly saw him, Molly,—but he's coming again to-night, and mind, I'll never forgive you if you don't think him very charming. I believe I cared for him when he offered all those months ago, but I tried to think I didn't only sometimes I really was so unhappy, I thought I must put an iron band round my heart to keep it from breaking, like the Faithful John of the German story,—do you remember, Molly?—how when his master came to his crown and his fortune and his lady-love, after innumerable trials and disgraces, and was driving away from the church where he'd been married in a coach and six, with Faithful John behind, the happy couple heard three great cracks in succession, and on inquiring, they were the iron-bands round his heart, that Faithful John had worn all during the time of his master's tribulation, to keep it from breaking."
I believe Cynthia realizes, that Henderson is as close to the perfect love she will ever find. I love that she says, he is fairly warned. It shows Henderson loves her unconditionally, which has to make Cynthia happy, because it's so important she has the love and admiration of people, and in spite of her flaws, Henderson still loves her and wants to marry her.
Sorry, if I jumped a bit ahead, I just was so happy to see Gaskell gave us this truth, about Cynthia and Henderson.
Cynthia even defends Henderson to Lady. Cumnor, when she tries to insult him for being an attorney, which shows how much she does care for him.
I found so much humor in these chapters, I couldn't stop laughing. This was so funny!!!
Mr. Gibson, generous as usual, called Cynthia aside a morning or two after her engagement, and put a hundred-pound note into her hands
There! that's to pay your expenses to Russia and back. I hope you'll find your pupils obedient."
To his surprise, and rather to his discomfiture, Cynthia threw her arms round his neck and kissed him.
"You are the kindest person I know," said she; "and I don't know how to thank you in words."
"If you tumble my shirt-collars again in that way, I'll charge you for the washing. Just now, too, when I'm trying so hard to be trim and elegant, like your Mr. Henderson."
"But you do like him, don't you?" said Cynthia, pleadingly. "He does so like you."
"Of course. We're all angels just now, and you're an arch-angel. I hope he'll wear as well as Roger.
This was so fun seeing these interaction of Mr. Gibson and Cynthia.
Okay, I will stop here and try to backtrack to chapters 51 - 57.
Ciao for now~
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You're still in this chunk, Bellamarie, that's in chapter 56. Mr. Gibson can't resist a wicked dig--"I hope he'll wear as well as Roger" indeed!
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Not so sure which caught the Squire's attention more regarding his DIL. The fact that she was French, Catholic...or that she had been a servant! If she had been an English servant...would he be as disturbed?
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Isn't it interesting how Gaskell had Aimee come to Hamley Hall for Osborne's death, and yet she sort of dropped the story line on her. Roger comes back and mentions Aimee is still with them, and he is not sure if she will go back to her homeland, but he hopes she will stay. Is there any laws of etiquette where it requires the son to marry his brother's wife should he die? I don't suppose there is any obligation for Roger to take Aimee as his responsibility, other than financially, and provide their home to her.
I like how the squire mentions Aimee does not seem neither French, or a servant. He sees how much she loved Osborne, and I think it has stirred his emotions, to care for her. I'm suspecting Gaskell will keep her living at Hamley Hall, with the little boy heir, since he will in fact become the owner of Hamley Hall one day. I knew she and Molly would like each other instantly, since they had the common denominator, Osborne, to speak well and loving, of each of them to each other.
Osborne's death was so sad, reading how the Squire expressed how he wasted his time being angry, and how he would have forgiven him, and accepted his wife and child had he only knew. My heart ached for the Squire in his grieving moments. Molly of course could be counted on to come straight away, to care for the Squire. How can Roger not fall in love with her, once he gets Cynthia's beauty out of his mind.
Ciao for now~
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Not so sure which caught the Squire's attention more regarding his DIL. The fact that she was French, Catholic...or that she had been a servant! If she had been an English servant...would he be as disturbed?
Gaskell has really pulled out all the stops on making Aimée unacceptable to Squire Hamley; servant is already totally bad, French is bad, and Catholic is the least of it though I think at that time there were still legal barriers for Catholics in some fields.
The question is, what is Gaskell doing by making Aimée so superficially unacceptable? The answer isn't going to be simple.
Is there any laws of etiquette where it requires the son to marry his brother's wife should he die? I don't suppose there is any obligation for Roger to take Aimee as his responsibility, other than financially, and provide their home to her.
This is an Old Testament obligation, but I think it was contrary to English law--certainly to English tradition. Your brother's wife was your "sister", so it would be incest. Roger would be out of the loop for financial and legal responsibility too; that's up to the squire, and as of now we don't know what the technical obligations are.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
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You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 6 Feb. 22-28+
Feb. 22-27}
Chapter 51 TROUBLES NEVER COME ALONE
Chapter 52 SQUIRE HAMLEY'S SORROW
Chapter 53 UNLOOKED-FOR ARRIVALS
Chapter 54 MOLLY GIBSON'S WORTH IS DISCOVERED
Chapter 55 AN ABSENT LOVER RETURNS
Chapter 56 "OFF WITH THE OLD LOVE, AND ON WITH THE NEW"
Chapter 57 BRIDAL VISITS AND ADIEUX
Feb. 28 ....
Chapter 58 REVIVING HOPES AND BRIGHTENING PROSPECTS
Chapter 59 MOLLY GIBSON AT HAMLEY HALL
Chapter 60 ROGER HAMLEY'S CONFESSION
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Some Things to Think About
Feb. 22-27 Chapters L1-LVII
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER LI. TROUBLES NEVER COME ALONE
Do you believe that “Troubles never come alone?”
At the very end of her conversation with Mr. Gibson, Cynthia has a moment of regret about giving up Roger. “Yet often in after years, when it was too late, she wondered, and strove to penetrate the inscrutable mystery of ‘what would have been.’” What do you think that tells you about Cynthia’s fate and future life?
Did you expect Osborne to die?
CHAPTER LII. SQUIRE HAMLEY'S SORROW
Why does Mrs. Gaskell make Osborne’s wife a Frenchwoman?
Is Squire Hamley’s grief realistically described?
CHAPTER LIII UNLOOKED-FOR ARRIVALS
Why does Squire Hamley have such a stereotyped picture of Aimée? What is she really like? Is that a stereotype too?
The squire couldn’t get enough of Aimée’s letters, and is touched by her appearance. How can he think of sending her away? Will she go?
CHAPTER LIV MOLLY GIBSON'S WORTH IS DISCOVERED
In what ways is Molly’s worth discovered? By whom?
There are two hospital nurses watching over Aimée, and a maid assigned to care for little Roger’s needs, plus his grandfather spending time with him. What duties are left for Molly that will exhaust her so much?
How is Cynthia’s standing improved by her behavior during Molly’s illness?
CHAPTER LV AN ABSENT LOVER RETURNS
CHAPTER LVI "OFF WITH THE OLD LOVE, AND ON WITH THE NEW"
CHAPTER LVII BRIDAL VISITS AND ADIEUX
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net),
PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), ADOANNIE (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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What is Mrs. Gaskell really saying about stereotypes...and bias here? I thought that when he came face to face with Osborne's "French, Catholic wife - who had once been a servant"...all the stereotypes would fall away and the squire would see her as an individual, the sweet young thing she is.
But no. He wants this baby...her baby - Osborne's baby but hopes to send the undesirable mother back to France! It helps that she came from across the channel. Imagine if she was a London girl?
I thought this was an interesting turn of events. Not many pages left for an explanation of his reaction. I too am wondering if Roger will develop feelings for his brother's wife. Then the Squire would have no choice but to keep her at Hamley Hall.
What of Molly then? Could her illness get the better of her? I have resisted the urge to read the final installment...and can understand why her readers are holding their breath to see what Mrs. Gaskell has planned for an ending. I can't imagine the reaction to the news of her death before the final installment came out.
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Oh JoanP., I can't even imagine Molly dying of her illness, if anything she seems to be getting better staying with Lady Harriet. I would throw this book in the garbage if Molly were to die in the end, and not have her happily ever after with Roger, especially after Cynthia has Henderson. Although, Molly being the generous, gracious person she is, I could see her giving Roger up to Aimee if they were to marry for the sake of the little boy. Oh, I can see Roger doing his duty, and seeing it an honor in memory of his brother Osborne, who he loved and was so loyal to. My heart took a huge leap just reading your possibility, of Molly dying. That would be a tragic ending, with Mr. Gibson having to deal with such cruel, sadness. Gaskell, could not do this to him or the readers!!!
Even though the Squire did seem to stereotype Aimee, I got the feeling he had gone a little soft on her, after Molly read the love letters from Aimee to Osborne. Not to mention seeing her with the child. Yes, he is speaking as would be expected, for her to return to her homeland, but I also felt it is what I think he assumes, SHE would want to do, but since the baby is the heir to Hamley Hall, again he is acting on principle, and what would be expected of the child, to be with the Hamley family, so he could grow up with the Hamley's, and be taught all that he would need to know as heir.
This gives me hope the Squire will have a change of heart....unless Gaskell resolves this situation with Aimee dying of a broken heart.
"In this case she only wished that the Squire could really feel that Aimée was not the encumbrance which he evidently considered her to be.
Not that he would have acknowledged the fact, if it had been put before him in plain words. He fought against the dim consciousness of what was in his mind; he spoke repeatedly of patience when no one but himself was impatient; he would often say that when she grew better she must not be allowed to leave the Hall until she was perfectly strong, when no one was even contemplating the remotest chance of her leavng her child, excepting only himself.
Molly once or twice asked her father if she might not speak to the Squire, and represent the hardship of sending her away—the improbability that she would consent to quit her boy, and so on; but Mr. Gibson only replied,—
"Wait quietly. Time enough when nature and circumstance have had their chance, and have failed."
I have not and will not read through to the end....I can barely stand having to wait to see how all ends, but there was so much to absorb in these chapters, I want to digest it, before the final installments.
Ciao for now~
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Good for you, JoanP and Bellamarie, for having the self-control not to read ahead. Yes, there is a lot to digest in these chapters, and a lot of twists and turns.
From the first time we saw him. Squire Hamley had very rigid ideas on who was good enough to marry his sons. She had to have money, because the estate needed it, but she also had to be of good blood. After all, the Hamley's had been landowners since King Alfred's time. A Hamley bride must have suitable lineage--Molly, for instance, respectable though she is, isn't good enough on this count, as well as being poor. So what does he get? A peasant, a nursemaid, who also is one of the inferior, effete, scheming French people.
No wonder he's upset, but look at his feelings for his grandson. He doesn't care at all that little Roger is half inferior peasant blood, the boy can do no wrong, and is the most precious thing in the world. Will this attitude leak back to Roger's mother?
Aimée also fits into some of the underlying themes of the book, and I'm not sure what the end message is.
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PatH., Yes, you are so right about the reasons why it was important for Osborne, the heir to the estate, to marry for the reasons you mentioned, but, here we are.....Osborne is dead, little "Osborne" as the Squre decided, they would call him, is of inferior, peasant, French blood, and Roger is not likely to marry anyone to fit the expectations.
I guess we can see this book has become more about changes, acceptance, breaking rules, regret, and moving ahead into a new modernization. Much like today's world, the coming generations are doing away with customs, traditions, values, and expectations, that their prior generation held so important, and dear to their hearts. Gaskell may have been a woman ahead of her times, to see it all happening, and writing about it as far back as this book. The railway is coming.....speeding ahead into the future of technology, and a generation deciding for themselves what will determine their happiness.
I never have felt Gaskell stayed within the true English, 1800/1900's manners, etiquette, and respect, as generations before them, from the beginning of the story, so as far as Hamley Hall, and family lineage goes, casa ra sa ra.....
The Squire is in complete love with little Osborne, and I sense he will do anything to keep him with him, even if it means having Aimee live with them.
Ciao for now~
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I am a little sorry about reading to the end of the book. But all your posts make me realize again the intensity of the drama playing itself out in these last chapters. I've returned the film after watching it a second time. There really is a lot of good theater in the story. Bellamarie, you've found some fine scenes for us. The greatest wonder is how the author can possibly put an ending to all the drama. A happy ending. There are indications that she was uncertain herself. What a favor she did her readers by leaving it up to them, and your posts prove it. Keep it up. I'm really enjoying your speculations.
No book like it, for laughter and tears.
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Jonathon, you are so right! Laughter and tears. There have been times especially where the Squire is concerned I truly felt like my heart was breaking for him. He truly stole my heart early on, even when his wife was alive. He seems the most human, with his emotions just right out there, even though he thinks he is disguising them well.
I don't think I have ever read a more humorous book, with so much drama. Who would have thought at this point in the book, I would actually not be so frustrated with Clare or Cynthia. They too are just human, with all their flaws. I am not at all forgiving of some of the cruel and hurtful things they have done to such kind, caring, loving people, but I do understand them. As for Mr. Preston, I am hoping Gaskell gives us more clarity, and does not think Roger mentioning Preston is off working in another town is enough. Will all my questions be answered? I have a feeling that is not going to happen, especially because Gaskell died before she could finish the story. Yes, I know she had discussed her intentions with her publisher or editor, but who is to say, had she lived, she would not have prolonged the book and changed her mind. We will never know.....but what I do ask, and wonder, is where exactly in the book did Gaskell die? Does anyone know?
Oh well......there is plenty of time to discuss that when the end is read. For now, I'm still digesting these chapters and am enjoying the Squire with little Osborne.
Jonathon, I am a bit sorry you read ahead too, it would have been fun uncovering these pages together. I fear many of our readers completed the book, and felt they could not post due to spoilers. JoanP., I am glad to know at least you and I are still in suspense, waiting to see how this all ties up and ends. ???
Ciao for now~
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We're each hoping for answers before this novel comes to a close. Such a long novel...so many unresolved issues before the novelist died. This is hard to think about, but isn't that the way it will be with our lives.
I'm so hoping that Mrs. Gaskell lived long enough to address the Squire's continued dislike of his son's wife - the mother of his precious grandson.
The squire couldn’t get enough of Aimée’s letters, and is touched by her appearance. How can he think of sending her away? Will she go?
I've been thinking of of this question and those letters, Pat. The squire couldn't read those letters - written in French, right? He needed Molly to translate them, before they meant something to him.
It's a language barrier more than anything else, isn't it? It took Molly, Dr. G and then Roger to translate for each of them - too stressful for both Aimée and the squire. What will happen when the time comes for Roger to return to Africa? The squire thinks ..(hopes?) she'll be gone back to France by then...leaving grandson with him. How will Mrs. Gaskell resolve this?
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Bella:Thanks for quoting the long passage from Chapter 50 where Mr. Gibson confronts Cynthia. Her method for dealing with criticism and defending herself is to turn tha tables and blame others: Mollly for mentioning the affair with Preston and Mr. Gibson for accusing her before she has a chance to tell her side of the story. So that gives her a reason for not telling Mr. Gibson what has gone on and leaving the room, giving him the silent treatment. Mrs. Gibson takes up Cynthia's cause and blames her husband for not loving Cynthia as much as he loves his own child Molly. He does love her almost as much as he loves Molly which is commendable. He knows however that he has spoken too harshly, I think becoming aware that milder words might have yielded a better opportunity to communicate with Cynthia.
But in the next chapter Cynthia relents and tells Mr. Gibson what happened. She wants to have him as a friend and she loves him better than she does Roger. She can't marry Roger because he is too upright for her limited notion of virtue, and one thing for sure: she doesn't want to ask his forgiveness for her faults. She is proud and haughty and not about to confess and knows she is not likely or able to change to fit his high standards. She wants admiration and acceptance and not a recounting of her shortcomings.
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I think we have to give Cynthia credit for recognizing her shortcomings, owning up to them, and ACTING before she hurts someone...thinking of.Mr. Preston and Roger. (She makes sure Mr. Henderson know her well enough...doesn't 't put her on a pedestal - and accepts her as she is.)
Today we wouldn't think too much about such behavior - but when you consider the time in which she lived...(the time in which Mrs. Glaskell is writing), this was quite a brave thing to do- especially for someone who NEEDS the approval of others.
Who is Glaskell's real heroine here?
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Yes, Lucy, I think Cynthia's best way of dealing with any of her faults, is to deflect, blame others, and run away from confrontation. Mr. Gibson did feel he could have been softer with her, but then again, she does respect him for caring enough about her to be tough on her, something NO ONE has dared do. I loved the little funny way he gave her the money for her marriage. That little banter was so touching. It truly did show how much the two of them love each other.
Another funny time was when Mr. Gibson was teasing and said this to Molly:
"Think of us on Thursday," said he. "I declare I don't know which of her three lovers she mayn't summon at the very last moment to act the part of bridegroom. I'm determined to be surprised at nothing; and will give her away with a good grace to whoever comes."
I laughed out loud reading this, Mr. Gibson has found the humor in all of Cynthia's whims and wants.
JoanP., "I think we have to give Cynthia credit for recognizing her shortcomings, owning up to them, and ACTING before she hurts someone...thinking of.Mr. Preston and Roger. (She makes sure Mr. Henderson know her well enough...doesn't 't put her on a pedestal - and accepts her as she is.)
Oh dear, I felt Cynthia hurt Preston and Roger greatly, and didn't give it a second thought, to it. I'm not so sure she owned up to anything, it was more of an excuse for her bad behavior. As for Henderson, yes, he knows her flaws, and loves her in spite of them. Cynthia may be happy now that she is marrying Henderson, and so it is easy to see her in a more caring light, but she left a lot of scars on the battlefield, as far as I am concerned, so while I am happy, she found her happily ever after, I still can't forget how she got there.
I did like how it was very important to Henderson to have Molly and Mr. Gibson's acceptance and approval of him. He obviously sees how much these two mean to Cynthia.
Another funny quip from Mr. Gibson:
The next time Mr. Gibson found Molly alone, he began,—"Well! and how do you like the new relation that is to be?"
"It's difficult to say. I think he's very nice in all his bits, but—rather dull on the whole."
"I think him perfection," said Mr. Gibson, to Molly's surprise; but in an instant afterwards she saw that he had been speaking ironically.
He went on. "I don't wonder she preferred him to Roger Hamley. Such scents! such gloves! And then his hair and his cravat!"
"Now, papa, you're not fair. He is a great deal more than that. One could see that he had very good feeling; and he is very handsome, and very much attached to her."
"So was Roger. However, I must confess I shall be only too glad to have her married. She's a girl who'll always have some love-affair on hand, and will always be apt to slip through a man's fingers if he doesn't look sharp; as I was saying to Roger—"
Gaskell was on a roll with Mr. Gibson throughout these chapters. I think in doing so, she made me actually begin to forgive and like Cynthia, in spite of her flaws and behavior.
Ciao for now~
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I'm sticking with my admiration for Cynthia...she could have married Roger or Mr. Preston and basked in their admiration - but didn't. I felt Cynthia grew from her mistakes, her character developed...which is how I would judge a person.
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JoanP, yes. Giving up Roger, although ultimately in her best interests since she could never live up to his standards (which he would probably see in time) may have been the "one heroic act" of which Cynthia thought she might be capable.
I'm struck by how often books set in this time period show someone having a prolonged serious illness because they have "exerted themselves" too much. It seems that in lieu of scientific medical explanations, the surmise is that over-exertion causes ill health.
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Yes, over-exertion and emotional stress too. Do you think there is something to the theory that such weakness slows recovery from other illnesses? Aimee over-exerted and continues to be under emotional stress - though maybe a bit less, now that Roger is home.
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And Molly overexerted herself taking care of Aimée, which led to her lengthy illness. I still want to know what her duties were, given that there were also two nurses, plus someone to care for little Roger. I suspect that nursing sick people at that time involved endless care about a lot of little details, treatments, and nourishments that we would now think would have no effect on the course of the illness.
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I suspect the emotional, mental, physical stress, and sleep deprived, had much to do with Molly getting ill. Her days are normally, maybe a walk outside, sitting in the house reading and getting plenty of rest and sleep. Just being in the Hamley house, making sure the Squire ate, and helping care for Aimee, along with all the worry about what will come of little Osborne and Aimee, and yes how this will effect Roger had to be exhausting. Not to mention, carrying along Cynthia's troubles. For such a young and delicate girl, that had to be a lot to deal with. But it seems she is on the mend now that Cynthia is getting married, and she is being taken care of by Lady Harriet.
I'm not sure Cynthia would have given Roger up so easily, had Mr. Henderson not been in the picture. She said she would go off to be a governess, but that was her last resort. She, like her mother, wants the attention from men, and so she would have chosen one of them, even if it would have been, poor red-haired Coxe. I say, in jest. :D
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I think Mr. Gibson is the eyes and ears of the book, who sets the moral standard. If he can understand and forgive Cynthia, we can do the same. Happily, Mrs. Gaskell doesn't set out to reform Cynthia but leaves her as she is, a little wiser, but the same perplexing character that she is.
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I guess we can see this book has become more about changes, acceptance, breaking rules, regret, and moving ahead into a new modernization. Much like today's world, the coming generations are doing away with customs, traditions, values, and expectations, that their prior generation held so important, and dear to their hearts.
You're so right, Bellamarie. There's a strong undercurrent of social evolution and change, and a new definition of Englishness.
Squire Hamley represents the old original Anglo-Saxon influence. The Cumnors are the changing nature of the aristocracy. Roger is turning into the model of the new Englishman--vigorous physically, and sound mentally. Furthermore, he is a scientist, and the notion of the importance of science was growing. Darwin's The Origin of Species came out three years before this book was written, and its ideas were being vigorously debated. People were carrying Darwin's ideas over into a general notion of improvement and change.
So where do Aimée and little Roger, the new Hamley heir, fit in? Is Gaskell saying that the old, outdated Saxon influence will be diluted and dwindle away? Or is she saying that it will reinvent itself and improve, by adding another influence (as it had already done with the Normans)?
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Gaskell toys with everyone's health. Even Roger in Africa takes a fall when he's not in a fever. His little nephew comes down with scarlet fever. Will he be the next to die? What purpose will Molly's illness serve. Do you really think of Molly as a delicate girl, Bellamarie? She may be introspective and passive emotionally, but otherwise she is quite robust: climbs cherry trees, takes steps two at a time, and is reckless with Miss Browning's china.
Thanks for finding the glorious humor in the book. And for contributing some of your own. I found it so charming to read that you,
'so while I am happy, she (Cynthia) found her happily ever after, I still can't forget how she got there.'
Can we think of the author as being just as happy as we? Now that she has Cynthia out of the way. That's one problem solved. Marriage will protect Cynthia from herself. But does she have a lot of might have beens to live with?
How will the squire ever take it, if his grandson should die? First his wife. Then the gamekeeper. Then his first born. All have touched him so deeply. Actually Squire Hamley is, and always has been, a soft touch. I have no doubt that Aimee will win his heart. He has been living in the past with all his predjudices. He reminds me of the elderly man I met the other day who is still carrying a lot of hate for his WWII enemies. The same with the squire. Get Napoleon.
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I just read your post, Pat, and it got me thinking. It also reminded me of something Marcie posted when we started out:
"Pre-Victorian English country society in the 1820s, the time period in which Wives and Daughters is set, was multi-layered and organized by intricate and distinct social groupings.
This basic hierarchical system consisted of the upper-, the middle- and the working-classes -- and each of these categories had its own internal hierarchical relationships as well. The upper classes ruled through a system of inherited aristocracy with complex rules, including rules of address. Everyone knew their place and fulfilled through their speech, dress, manner and aspirations."
Hasn't that been well illustrated throughout the text? Such a great awareness of ones 'place'. With one exception. The governess. Isn't it understandable that she would some times wonder about where she stood in the lineup. And then, Lady Harriet. She liked Mr Preston, until he got too familiar. Didn't show proper deference.
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Jonathon,
How will the squire ever take it, if his grandson should die?
Oh my, I have not gotten to the chapter that reveals the grandson gets sick. Please don't even tell me I have to imagine that little guy not being around to soften the heart of the Squire. He could not take another loss, and I don't think I could either.
PatH., Squire Hamley represents the old original Anglo-Saxon influence. The Cumnors are the changing nature of the aristocracy. Roger is turning into the model of the new Englishman--vigorous physically, and sound mentally. Furthermore, he is a scientist, and the notion of the importance of science was growing. Darwin's The Origin of Species came out three years before this book was written, and its ideas were being vigorously debated. People were carrying Darwin's ideas over into a general notion of improvement and change.
You have put this all together to eloquently, and so very perfectly, and I couldn't have said it better myself. I just absolutely love your knowledge and insight!
Yes, Jonathon, I guess I do see Molly delicate. Yes, she does do the things you mentioned, and I love that about her, but I see her delicate by nature. She captured my heart in the first chapters when she so selflessly cared for Mrs. Hamley, and her innocence, loyalty, love, caring, concern for others is just so admirable. I will say she has more reserve, than any of the rest of the characters in this book. Her patience is mighty, and her forgiveness is limitless.
Lucy, I think Mr. Gibson is the eyes and ears of the book, who sets the moral standard. If he can understand and forgive Cynthia, we can do the same. Happily, Mrs. Gaskell doesn't set out to reform Cynthia but leaves her as she is, a little wiser, but the same perplexing character that she is.
This is the best argument I have heard, for reason enough, to forgive Cynthia's bad, selfish behavior. I love Mr. Gibson, and if he can turn it all into humor, yet reprimand her when she needed it, and yes, forgive her, I can too! But NOT until I finish the book, and make sure she is deserving of it......I'm like Mr. Gibson, at any turn Cynthia can shock us, like this statement, he makes to Molly:
"You look like Marius sitting amidst the ruins of Carthage, my dear! What's the matter? Why have you got on that wobegone face? This marriage isn't broken off, is it? Though nothing would surprise me where the beautiful Cynthia is concerned."
Another laugh out loud moment for me! ;D
Ciao for now~
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'and yes, forgive her, I can too! But NOT until I finish the book, and make sure she is deserving of it......'
Of course we have to forgive her, Bellamarie. She's had such a hard time of it. In her own words, near the end of chapter 50:
'...mamma still looks upon me as an "encumbrance,"...but I have been an excumbrance to her all my life. I am getting very much into despair about everything, Molly. I shall try my luck in Russia. I have heard of a situation as English governess at Moscow.'
Just by chance, while watch the closing Olympic ceremonies in Russia and being made aware of Russian literature, I picked up Anna Karenina. The opening sentence, well, the second, had me practically crying for Cynthia:
'Everything was upset in the Oblonskys' house. The wife had discovered an intrigue between her husband and their former French governess, and declared that she would not continue to live under the same roof with him.
Surely that can't be the situation Cynthia has heard about. Surely Gaskell will not allow her heroine to fall into that trap.
Let's forgive Clare as well. She has had and is having a hard time, which can be understood in her exasperated exclamation, near the end of Chapter 55:
"Well, after this tirade - really rather indelicate, I must say - I have done. I will neither help nor hinder any love affairs of you two young ladies."
Have you noticed how Molly blooms into health when Roger enters the room?
I have a lot of sympathy for Clare. Still remembering with sorrow how she caused her first husband's death by sending him out into the rain to fetch her a muffin. A five mile walk.
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Oh Jonathon, I giggle at your post, once again, you and I read the same words, but hear a different meaning....
'...mamma still looks upon me as an "encumbrance,"...but I have been an excumbrance to her all my life. I am getting very much into despair about everything, Molly. I shall try my luck in Russia. I have heard of a situation as English governess at Moscow.'
When I read this, it reminded me of Scarlet O'Hara, she did have a bit of dramatics about her as well. I saw this as another of Cynthia's ploys for sympathy. As if she could, or would settle as a governess, when the attention of men is her most needed thing in life. From the time she was 16 yrs old and learned she could use her beauty, to get Preston to give her money for bustles, bonnets and bows, til she was able to flirt with Osborne, Roger, and Henderson, and even poor red-haired Coxe, not to mention wile Mr. Gibson. I could never see her as a governess. No, Cynthia, has the flare for dramatics, and I was not fooled by her little speech. Again, I found the humor, imagining her down on her knees, with the sweetest of smiles.
And as for Clare's statement.....she was just clearly fed up, because she realized what a mess Cynthia had made of everything, and was throwing her hands up. She desperately wanted Cynthia to accept Henderson's proposal, so much so she jumped the gun and wrote the letter behind her daughter's back.
So while Gaskell may tie up all the loose ends, with a nice pretty bow, and the happily ever afters, are for some if not all, (haven't finished it yet to know if all) I am not so ready to take these declarations out of context, and forgive their selfish motives and behaviors. They hurt a lot of people along the way, to get what they wanted, and there is NO apology or regret I fear.
I'll reserve the right to change my mind once I have finished the book....afterall, Cynthia/Gaskell sure did change their minds, plenty of times throughout the book. ;D
Ciao for now~
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As soon as Clare makes this statement, "Well, after this tirade - really rather indelicate, I must say - I have done. I will neither help nor hinder any love affairs of you two young ladies."
it is humorous and comical that she goes upstairs and writes a letter to Mrs. Kirkpatrick describing Cynthia's "unfortunate entanglement," and "delicate sense of honour," and asserting that Cynthia is indifferent to all men excluding Mr. Henderson. After the latter does propose, she has to writie another hurried letter telling Mrs. Kirkpatrick that what she has said about Roger should be kept private. Henderson has already written the Kirkpatrick's about his engagement.
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"This basic hierarchical system consisted of the upper-, the middle- and the working-classes -- and each of these categories had its own internal hierarchical relationships as well. The upper classes ruled through a system of inherited aristocracy with complex rules, including rules of address. Everyone knew their place and fulfilled through their speech, dress, manner and aspirations."
Can't help but wonder how Mrs. Glaskell's work was received by the different classes...especially the " inherited aristocracy with its complex rules."
Did they find her rather progressive views, her subtle (and not so subtle) critique of Victorian attitudes, shocking? Threatening, even? Or did they recognize the reality that change is coming?
Were her novels considered avant garde or do you think there were others sounding the same themes?
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Molly is ill, her father orders rest -
..."Haven't you got a trashy novel or two for her?"
Dr. Gibson to Mrs. G (assuming that's all she reads.) :D
Any idea what the "trashy novels" of the time he might have been referring to?
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Molly's illness and all this business of "invalid ways" puzzles and annoys me. I don't think she is ill in any traditional sense, just depressed and unsure of how to act upon Roger's return. Clare says she has "nervous fever," and that "nerves are mere fancy." This is in Chapter 54, Molly Gibson's Worth, when Cynthia suddenly returns from London because she wants to be with Molly who is ill.
Her mother thinks she is overdoing her concern, that it would be better to stay in London and hope for a proposal from Mr. Henderson and not risk offending the Kirkpatricks, who have approved her action and invited her back as soon as she can leave Molly. I think this chapter marks a turning point in our opinion of Cynthia. Mr. Gibson is impressed and says, "You're a good girl, Cynthia."
From this point on we are more sympathetic to Cynthia and put her misconduct into the past. She's going to leave the scene anyway, so there is no reason to harbor ill feelings toward her.
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JoanP.,
Can't help but wonder how Mrs. Glaskell's work was received by the different classes...especially the " inherited aristocracy with its complex rules."
Did they find her rather progressive views, her subtle (and not so subtle) critique of Victorian attitudes, shocking? Threatening, even? Or did they recognize the reality that change is coming?
Were her novels considered avant garde or do you think there were others sounding the same themes?
I sense Gaskell is not the first writer, to show there is a new wave coming to England. The train system is on the cusp, the people seem excited, although much like ourselves today, it had to be a little bit of wonderment and apprehension, to see changes coming, taking England into a new society. Those who have been comfortable with their aristocracies, and have had generations of rules of etiquette, must have been a bit shocked, at the way the young people were acting.
Aren't we here in the present day, in the world watching these very changes taking place with the economy, technology, the new laws with same sex marriage, gays in the military, open living together before marriage, children out of wedlock higher ever in history, sexually explicit music and videos, scaling down our military, human trafficking, internet/texting becoming the source of communication, religion under attack, executive orders over ruling our constitution, etc., etc. Yes, I fear we are feeling much like England did back, then....concerned if the new changes will denigrate our society, traditions, morals and values, generations have fought so hard to keep in tact. As a baby boomer, I was pretty uncomfortable, and uncertain with where Gloria Steinem, Woodstock, Dr. Spock, Roe vs Wade, and the number draft, would take our society. While many will say it's the best that could happen, I still today ask myself if it wasn't the beginning of the end, of a more cultured, disciplined, moral, valued society. I think of Cynthia, needing and wanting constant attention from the men, and it reminds me of the "selfies" today, who crave attention so much so they are constantly taking pictures of themselves, putting them on open social networks, for the sake of feeling important, yet putting their reputation and lives in danger.
Sorry, I guess it really hit me how as far back as this novel, changes were coming to world society, some good, and some not so good.
Ciao for now~
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Molly's illness and all this business of "invalid ways" puzzles and annoys me. I don't think she is ill in any traditional sense, just depressed and unsure of how to act upon Roger's return. Clare says she has "nervous fever," and that "nerves are mere fancy."
It seems to be common in books of this time for women to react this way to emotional stress. Women were seen as being weaker creatures than men, apt to break down under strain. They also need protection: when Mr. Gibson is trying to get Cynthia to tell him all, he says "I asked you to tell me the full truth, in order that until he [Roger] comes, and has a legal right to protect you, I may do so." When Cynthia says she has broken off with Roger, he says "But, my dear Cynthia,--how soon Roger will be back--a tower of strength." and "When you come to think calmly you will be glad of the stay and support of such a husband as Roger."
I wonder if Mrs. Gaskell believed that? She doesn't seem to have lived an overprotected life herself. In addition to raising seven children and performing all the duties of a minister's wife, she had an active social life among prominent people of the day, and did a lot of work in social welfare and activism.
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'the husband as a tower of strength...did Mrs Gaskell believe that?'
Good question, Pat. I don't think so. Perhaps it will serve as evidence of the avant garde in the novel. Can we find one tower of strength among the husbands already on the scene. The squire depended almost totally on his wife. The only thing Lady Cumnor gets from her husband is gossip. The events in the novel coincided with important social and political reforms as well as with the transforming influence of scientific discoveries, but I can't help feeling that Wives and Daughters was read with the same pleasure that they got from theater such as Sheridan's The School for Scandal, and Goldsmith's She Stoops to Conquer.
I was made aware of this when I read that sad comment from Lucy, about Cynthia:
'She's going to leave the scene anyway, so there is no reason to harbor ill feelings toward her.'
Hasn't she spent as much time in soul searching as flirting? 'Coming out' or self-discovery in Hollingford has too much of the timeless about them to be avant garde.
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The avant-garde pushes the boundaries of what is accepted as the norm or the status quo, primarily in the cultural realm. The avant-garde is considered by some to be a hallmark of modernism, as distinct from postmodernism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde
After reading this article, I do see where Gakell was Avant-garde writing this story. She is indeed taking English tradition, politics and technology to a new modernized level. She mentions the train coming, the Whig party, and has tradition and rules for the younger generation in transition. For her to have the insight, into what was coming back then, it is clearly genius in my opinion.
Something stuck in my mind in one of your last posts Jonathon, I have a lot of sympathy for Clare. Still remembering with sorrow how she caused her first husband's death by sending him out into the rain to fetch her a muffin. A five mile walk.
Hmmm....I remember something about Mr. Kirkpatrick walking to get Clare a muffin, but I don't remember it mentioning it is what caused his death. Oh my heavens, don't tell me this wretched woman was the cause of her husband's death. I just may have to jump inside this book and wring her neck! And yet, you can find sympathy and forgive her if this is true??? tsk tsk......
Okay, I can not wait any longer to finish these chapters, so, I am off to read the final chapters, so I will be ready for tomorrow's discussion. Oh how I hope Molly & Roger get there happily ever after, and the Squire does not disappoint me where Aimee is concerned. Cynthia has her Henderson, and dear Clare should be happy, as happy as possible, sense she does seem to find ways to be miserable all by herself. (the devil mad me say that) ;D ;D
Ciao for now~
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So we don't lose the questions from the previous chapters, I'll post the discussion questions for the last section of the book here:
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
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You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 28++ ....
Chapter 58 REVIVING HOPES AND BRIGHTENING PROSPECTS
Chapter 59 MOLLY GIBSON AT HAMLEY HALL
Chapter 60 ROGER HAMLEY'S CONFESSION
Concluding Remarks (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm#c61) by the editor of Cornhill Magazine
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Some Things to Think About
Feb. 28++ Chapters LVIII-LX + Concluding Remarks (Cornhill Magazine editor
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER LVIII. REVIVING HOPES AND BRIGHTENING PROSPECTS
When they meet again what are the impressions of Molly and Roger of each other?
What are some tensions between them?
Did you find some of the passages in this chapter humorous?
CHAPTER LIX. MOLLY GIBSON AT HAMLEY HALL
What does Mrs. Goodenough think about Molly's proposed visit to Hamley Hall?
How does Molly act toward Roger?
What do you think of the way that Mrs. Gaskell reveals Molly's and Roger's feelings in this chapter?
CHAPTER LX ROGER HAMLEY'S CONFESSION
What good outcome resulted from little Osborne's illness?
What things struck you in the conversation between Roger and Molly's father?
Do you think that Roger is being inconstant loving Molly now instead of Cynthia?
Are you satisfied with how the novel ends?
What do you think of all of the major characters?
Concluding Remarks (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm#c61) by the editor of Cornhill Magazine)
Did reading the brief notes left by Mrs. Gaskell and the information from the editor help you reach more closure with the novel?
Did you learn anything you didn't expect?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net),
PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), ADOANNIE (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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We've come to the last chapters of the book. Maybe we can take the weekend to talk about these chapters or about any aspect of the book, or the film if you've seen it.
Roger has returned from his expedition and learned that Cynthia is engaged to another man. When they meet again what are the impressions of Molly and Roger of each other?
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I smiled at your mention of the film in your post, Marcie. We just received the first disc from Netflix yesterday, popped the popcorn and settled in to watch it last evening. Imagine my dismay to find the DVD shattered - as if someone had taken a hammer to it!
They say they will send another copy, but...I really wanted to see if Cynthia is portrayed as badly as Bella sees her...or just clueless as to the feelings of others. She loves Molly- really didn't mean to hurt her. Thinks highly of Roger, but knows he's too good for her. (He is.) She doesn't want to hurt him further when he comes home - knowing he will probably fall in love with her all over again if he sees her. I guess it isn't easy being so beautiful. Men fall madly in love without really knowing you...
Though Roger's appearance has changed during the six months he's been away (bearded, bronzed, more muscular... her "friend 's" voice hadn't changed. When he first came home, he saw her as an invalid...but now at the Towers, he hardly recognizes her... Had her illness really changed her that much?
"He began to feel that admiring deference which most young men experience when conversing with a pretty girl...in a manner very different to his old familiar friendliness."
Does she really look so different? Are his altered feelings towards her due to her appearance?
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In answer to the question about whether the editor's notes cleared up much, no, it didn't, but the movie does a good job with the ending! Ha,ha,ha!
But when I watched it, not knowing that the book had no ending, I felt that Mr. Preston's problems had been left hanging in the air. Now I know why! My online copy does have the Cornhill editor's remarks. Aren't those Dicken's remarks?
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Ooops. I goofed, thought we had another day on this section. You all got ahead of me in answering the questions I had thought up, but there were some minor points I was curious about. What do you think is the significance of Roger coming back from Africa looking bigger, stronger, almost taller, more impressive?
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Pat, sorry I jumped ahead. Of course we can talk about the previous chapters too.
I think that the contrast of Roger and Osborne has been well done by Mrs. Gaskell. She dwells a lot on their common love for each other. We don't see them pitted against each other though they are actually so different. Osborne becomes ill and wastes away. Roger contracts an illness in "dangerous" Africa but returns bigger and stronger.
Joan, it may be that Molly's illness gave her a thinner, paler appearance but I think that her changed look had also to do with the fine gown and hairdo and her being so serene surrounded by all of the "society" people. She probably looks more like a young lady and less like the teenager he befriended. Having been jilted by Cynthia also probably made Roger look at Molly with new eyes and appreciate the contrast between her and Cynthia that was always there.
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I have finished the book, and read the concluding remarks, I am just awestruck! But before I begin discussing these final chapters, I want to share a statement, which gives me justification, in seeing Cynthia, as the author Mrs. Gaskell intended to portray her, and hopefully help with this,
JoanP.,.I really wanted to see if Cynthia is portrayed as badly as Bella sees her...or just clueless as to the feelings of others.
pg. 600 Concluding Remarks
Cynthia is one of the most difficult characters which have ever been attempted in our time.
Perfect art always obscures the difficulties it overcomes; and it is not till we try to follow the processes by which such a character as the Tito of Romola is created, for instance, that we begin to understand what a marvellous piece of work it is. To be sure, Cynthia was not so difficult, nor is it nearly so great a creation as that splendid achievement of art and thought—of the rarest art, of the profoundest thought. But she also belongs to the kind of characters which are conceived only in minds large, clear, harmonious and just, and which can be portrayed fully and without flaw only by hands obedient to the finest motions of the mind. Viewed in this light, Cynthia is a more important piece of work even than Molly, delicately as she is drawn, and true and harmonious as that picture is also.
I found the painting which is mentioned above.
https://www.google.com/search?q=bacchus+and+ariadne+painting&tbm=isch&imgil=I5BmwY_kSseBcM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcTJky_U6XDQqtWzppEGgsSxdhnZ5sJ0vhsnkeHptnTJEmhU6kC5%253B1000%253B835%253BbVnEb8zXfd0ZPM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.oilpaintingsgallery.com%25252Fpaintings%25252FBacchus-and-Ariadne.asp&source=iu&usg=__bf1zK2Lfm2EVRkQw0g6rvtTLPFg%3D&sa=X&ei=sakQU_66F9DyyAHAroHoCA&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ9QEwBQ&biw=1366&bih=640#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=I5BmwY_kSseBcM%253A%3BbVnEb8zXfd0ZPM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.oilpaintingsgallery.com%252Fdisrobed%252FBacchus-and-Ariadne.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.oilpaintingsgallery.com%252Fpaintings%252FBacchus-and-Ariadne.asp%3B1000%3B835
"He paints a betrothal picture for Tito and Romola, representing them as Bacchus and Ariadne"
Romola is the female protagonist through whom the surrounding world is evaluated. Contemporary and modern critics have questioned the likelihood of the level of scholarship attributed to women such as Romola in Renaissance Italy, and have pointed to the possible role of the title character as a Victorian critique of the constrained lot of women in that period, as well as in Eliot's contemporary period. Felicia Bonaparte speculated about the title character as a "thoroughly contemporary figure, the Victorian intellectual struggling to resolve the dilemmas of the modern age". In a similar vein, the story also deals with the dilemma of where the duty of obedience for women ends and the duty of resistance begins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romola
This is very interesting to read, after researching and finding this article, I sense Wives and Daughters was inspired by George Elliot's Romola.
Mary Anne Evans (22 November 1819 – 22 December 1880; alternatively "Mary Ann" or "Marian"), known by her pen name George Eliot, was an English novelist, journalist, translator and one of the leading writers of the Victorian era. She is the author of seven novels, including Adam Bede (1859), The Mill on the Floss (1860), Silas Marner (1861), Middlemarch (1871–72), and Daniel Deronda (1876), most of them set in provincial England and known for their realism and psychological insight.
She used a male pen name, she said, to ensure her works would be taken seriously. Female authors were published under their own names during Eliot's life, but she wanted to escape the stereotype of women only writing lighthearted romances. An additional factor in her use of a pen name may have been a desire to shield her private life from public scrutiny and to prevent scandals attending her relationship with the married George Henry Lewes, with whom she lived for over 20 years.[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Eliot
http://www.academia.edu/311871/George_Eliots_Romola_A_Historical_Novel_Rather_Different_in_Character_
I don't think it too much of a leap, at least for me, to assume Gaskell was familiar with Elliot's novels, and the two of them shared the same writing style, themes, and avant-garde for their times.
I also feel these comments clarify many of the feelings I expressed throughout this story:
pg. 599 While you read any one of the last three books we have named, you feel yourself caught out of an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions, into one where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter, but where it is possible for people to live calm and wholesome lives; and, what is more, you feel that this is at least as real a world as the other
Now as for Cynthia, I think this shows while she seemed to dominate the story, Gaskell fully intended to concentrate on Molly and Roger in her final chapters, as it should be.
pg. 599 Of what was to happen to Cynthia after her marriage the author was not heard to say much; and, indeed, it does not seem that anything needs to be added.
I am contented with how Gaskell wrapped up Cynthia and Henderson. I am ready to focus on the two characters Molly and Roger, I was so hoping would have their happy ending. I'm not sure forgiving Cynthia or seeing her differently than the author intended her is necessary. She is who she is, no regrets, no apologies, and she has a husband who accepts her for just the person she is......that is enough for me.
JoanP., I am so sorry to hear your dvd was destroyed. I would caution you, to keep an open mind when viewing the movie, as we know, many a books made into a movie can loose much of a person's character the author intended it to be. I can name many books I recently read, then watched the movie and was thoroughly disappointed in how characters were unrecognizable in the movie. Such as the movie The Help, a very serious story dealing with prejudice, civil rights, abuse, and societal snobbery, was made into a comedy movie. I just about walked out of the theater, because it was a disgrace to the author, to minimize her great work.
My apologies this is so lengthy, I got so intrigued in researching and wanted to finish with Cynthia, as far as I am concerned and Mrs. Gaskell, before discussing these wonderful last chapters! Gakell did NOT disappoint for sure!
Ciao for now~
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Annie, I've just finished the last three chapters Mrs. Gaskell wrote - not yet read the editor's note. (read somewhere that Mrs. Glaskell died mid-sentence as she was working on the ending. Wish I could find that note!)
Though several of her novels were published by Dickens in his Household Words, the editor of Cornhill was Frederick Greenwood, editor of Cornhill - a rival publication of Dickens. Here's an overview of her life with more on this editor's words pust out by The Gaskell Society in the UK (http://www.gaskellsociety.co.uk/chrono.html)
I'll need to spend time later this afternoon on the Editor's Concluding Notes ...cannot comment until then. Thank you for delving into them, Bella. I do see your reference to page 599...not sure what you are referring to. You discourage me from the hope that we'll learn much more from them, Annie. I've read somewhere that the BBC wrote its own ending, so yes, will keep that in mind when/if Netflix sends another DVD!
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What do you think is the significance of Roger coming back from Africa looking bigger, stronger, almost taller, more impressive?
Pat, I did a second take at the idea that Roger had become taller in the 6 months he'd been away. He's 24, isn't he? Don't really think he was taller. This was Dr. Gibson's reaction to how much he'd changed. I guess he'd bulked up ....meaning he'd put on more muscle...as you say, was more imposing...impressive in appearance. I confess I was waiting for Cynthia to get a look at him when he returned...maybe change her mind about him. But they never did lay eyes on one another, did they? Roger hardly came to the Gibson house at all...even after Cynthia was gone. Was it because Molly was sick?
"She probably looks more like a young lady and less like the teenager he befriended."
Yes, that's probably it, Marcie. I was having a hard time accepting that his new interest in Molly was basked solely on looks and not on their old friendship built on admiration and respect. Without her fine gown and fancy hairdo, would he still be seeing the same old Molly he used to know?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell
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Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece. Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.
The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55. Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
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You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm)
Discussion Schedule:
Part 6 Feb. 22-28+
Feb. 22-27}
Chapter 51 TROUBLES NEVER COME ALONE
Chapter 52 SQUIRE HAMLEY'S SORROW
Chapter 53 UNLOOKED-FOR ARRIVALS
Chapter 54 MOLLY GIBSON'S WORTH IS DISCOVERED
Chapter 55 AN ABSENT LOVER RETURNS
Chapter 56 "OFF WITH THE OLD LOVE, AND ON WITH THE NEW"
Chapter 57 BRIDAL VISITS AND ADIEUX
Feb. 28 ....
Chapter 58 REVIVING HOPES AND BRIGHTENING PROSPECTS
Chapter 59 MOLLY GIBSON AT HAMLEY HALL
Chapter 60 ROGER HAMLEY'S CONFESSION
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Some Things to Think About
Feb. 22-27 Chapters L1-LVII
Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.
CHAPTER LI. TROUBLES NEVER COME ALONE
Do you believe that “Troubles never come alone?”
At the very end of her conversation with Mr. Gibson, Cynthia has a moment of regret about giving up Roger. “Yet often in after years, when it was too late, she wondered, and strove to penetrate the inscrutable mystery of ‘what would have been.’” What do you think that tells you about Cynthia’s fate and future life?
Did you expect Osborne to die?
CHAPTER LII. SQUIRE HAMLEY'S SORROW
Why does Mrs. Gaskell make Osborne’s wife a Frenchwoman?
Is Squire Hamley’s grief realistically described?
CHAPTER LIII UNLOOKED-FOR ARRIVALS
Why does Squire Hamley have such a stereotyped picture of Aimée? What is she really like? Is that a stereotype too?
The squire couldn’t get enough of Aimée’s letters, and is touched by her appearance. How can he think of sending her away? Will she go?
CHAPTER LIV MOLLY GIBSON'S WORTH IS DISCOVERED
In what ways is Molly’s worth discovered? By whom?
There are two hospital nurses watching over Aimée, and a maid assigned to care for little Roger’s needs, plus his grandfather spending time with him. What duties are left for Molly that will exhaust her so much?
How is Cynthia’s standing improved by her behavior during Molly’s illness?
CHAPTER LV AN ABSENT LOVER RETURNS
CHAPTER LVI "OFF WITH THE OLD LOVE, AND ON WITH THE NEW"
CHAPTER LVII BRIDAL VISITS AND ADIEUX
CHAPTER LVIII. REVIVING HOPES AND BRIGHTENING PROSPECTS
When they meet again what are the impressions of Molly and Roger of each other?
What are some tensions between them?
Did you find some of the passages in this chapter humorous?
CHAPTER LIX. MOLLY GIBSON AT HAMLEY HALL
What does Mrs. Goodenough think about Molly's proposed visit to Hamley Hall?
How does Molly act toward Roger?
What do you think of the way that Mrs. Gaskell reveals Molly's and Roger's feelings in this chapter?
CHAPTER LX ROGER HAMLEY'S CONFESSION
What good outcome resulted from little Osborne's illness?
What things struck you in the conversation between Roger and Molly's father?
Do you think that Roger is being inconstant loving Molly now instead of Cynthia?
Are you satisfied with how the novel ends?
What do you think of all of the major characters?
Concluding Remarks (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4274/4274-h/4274-h.htm#c61) by the editor of Cornhill Magazine)
Did reading the brief notes left by Mrs. Gaskell and the information from the editor help you reach more closure with the novel?
Did you learn anything you didn't expect?
DLs: Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Joanp (jonkie@verizon.net), Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com), Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net),
PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net), ADOANNIE (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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JoanP.,
But they never did lay eyes on one another, did they?
Roger and Cynthia did not have a face to face, once he came home, because when he went to her house to see if she might change her mind, he saw Cynthia in the garden with Henderson, and said this to Mr. Gibson:
pg. 592 But you know how I found her, when I went to have the interview which I trusted might end in the renewal of our relations,—engaged to Mr. Henderson. I saw her walking with him in your garden, coquetting with him about a flower, just as she used to do with me.
My reference in my post from pg. 599, was referring to how it tells us how the author intended her readers to feel while reading the book. Which for me, is pretty dead on.
you feel yourself caught out of an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions, into one where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter, but where it is possible for people to live calm and wholesome lives; and, what is more, you feel that this is at least as real a world as the other
I feel this book was all of those feelings described, and we are more enriched for it.
Ciao for now~
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Cynthia is one of the most difficult characters which have ever been attempted in our time.
Good point. Bellamarie. Look at how much we've chewed over her character, and we can't help liking her in spite of herself.
She says she has told Mr. Henderson what she is like, and that he likes her that way. I hope he really knows what he's getting into; I think he might well do OK.
Marcie, you weren't cutting me off, I was being fuzzy-headed. Of course it's time to move on, and that never stops us from backtracking if we want to.
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At the end of Chapter 58, Mrs. Goodenough expresses her sense of impropiety about Molly's visit to Hamley Hall. She uses colloquial English which marks her station in life; she is "commonplace and unrefined." Nevertheless Molly overhears her comments to her granddaughter that Mrs. Gibson is sending Molly to visit with an awareness that Roger is likely to inherit Hamley Hall and it upsets Molly; since none of her family had expressed such a notion, how can it be an impropiety? "But reasoning was of no use after Mrs. Goodenough's words had put fancies into Molly's head." So Molly feels she must avoid contact with Roger and concentrate on helping the squire. "Alas! the simplicity of their intercourse was spoilt henceforwards." I think reputation is a theme of the book, how serious it is if a good reputation is lost and how maintaining one may limit one's relations with others. Cynthia had squandered hers and jeopardized Molly's. Both Mr. and Mrs, Gibson are concerned about the reputations of the girls in their care. This idea of people needing to live within society's standards pervades the book.
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It was rather sad to see once again, gossip hurts Molly. Mrs. Goodenough, now isn't it a bit ironic, how Mrs. Gaskell chose to name her that particular name Good enough? She sure has decided to judge what is, and what is not, good enough for these young girls.
I have to admit when I read the part about Molly overhearing this:
"Mrs. Gibson is sending Molly to visit with an awareness that Roger is likely to inherit Hamley Hall and it upsets Molly; since none of her family had expressed such a notion, how can it be an impropiety? "
And she then goes and avoids Roger, and acts so unlike her easy, self with him, I felt it took on a Harlequin Romance feel. At this point, you know they should be together, but the thing that gets in the way to prevent it from happening, is something that could easily be sorted out, and in the end, it is inconsequential. I sensed Gaskell was once again showing how judgments, expectations, and gossip can harm relationships and reputations.
Lucy, I agree...reputation is one of the themes of the book.
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Two passages I want to mention:
Talking with her brother at the Towers while Molly is visiting, Lady Harriet speaking of Roger after they had spoken of the possibility of Roger wanting to marry Molly but that he lacks a fortune:
"...a hundred things may happen--some one may leave him a fortune--or this tiresome little heir that nobody wanted, may die."
I thought that a harsh comment and not worthy of Lady H whom we have come to like and has helped and protected Molly.
And Mrs. Gibson in the last chapter says of Osborne's son:
"Poor little child! When one thinks how little his prolonged existence is to be desired, one feels that his death would be a boon."
Of course we expect such an attitude from Mrs. Gibson whose real values are money and prestige among the powerful. Molly promptly contradicts her and says how much every one cares for the little boy and how charming he is.
I'm just kind of amused that Mrs. Gaskell allowed her characters to entertain such crass thoughts, especially Lady Harriet. I can only say about the latter that this reveals a carelessness among the upper classes when they are by themselves and can make unguarded statements. Perhaps Mrs. Gaskell was thinking of an easy solution to the plot, death, which she has already used in the case of Osborne.
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Lucylibr, I think you said well, "This idea of people needing to live within society's standards pervades the book." Although "society's standards" are still in effect today, I think there are more holes that people can slip through to make personal choices.
Mrs. Gaskell is able to create a complex society with complex individuals. You're right, Pat, that with all of the flaws that Gaskell has given Cynthia, she is still a character that most of us like. I took the term "difficult," that the editor used, to mean that Gaskell created a dense, rich persona with flaws and subtle qualities.
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I can't imagine someone wishing the fate of a small child, for the sake of someone else's fortune. This statement was so out of character for Lady Harriet. I had to read it twice to be sure I had not read it wrong.
"or this tiresome little heir that nobody wanted, may die."
Harriet took a huge liking to Molly instantly, but to imagine a sweet little baby boy to die, so Molly could marry Roger and he inherit the estate was rather harsh. But Gaskell made all her characters with the human instincts and feelings good and bad. A fleeting thought, that may never be audible.....but in fact she was thinking it.
Must run off to two grandchildren's basketball games, this morning, both my sons are the coaches and I am hoping they bring home the trophies they have worked so hard for. Wish us luck!
Ciao for now~
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Lady Harriet hasn't met the mother or baby. I think she is voicing "high society's" views without regard to the actual individuals. To her, they are probably just the "idea" of a lowly marriage and baby to a first son (the sort of shameful idea that the squire had wanted to avoid for his sons all his life).
Good luck to your teams, bellamarie. It's fun watching games in which you know the players/coaches.
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Yes, Lady Harriet has no association with the Hamley's...but I thought it was much more shocking when Mrs. Gibson made a similar observation - that it would be a boon if the little boy died.. because the Squire "deserved a better-born heir than a servant's offspring." Mrs. Gaskell uses Mrs. Gibson to express widely held views of the upper crust - which is more preposterous coming from her than from Lady Harriet, who doesn't know the family at all. Would Roger be the heir if the baby were to die? I vaguely remember something about the Irish Hamleys...
I don't even want to think of such a thing.
Haven't read the Concluding Remarks yet - BUT Netflix did sent a new DVD of the BBC production, looking forward to viewing that tonight. I know they did their own ending, but would like to see how the characters were portrayed - expecially Cynthia. Someone here referred to her as a "piece of work" - I really liked that description of the girl.
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'And now cover me up close, and let me sleep, and dream about my dear Cynthia and my new shawl.'
The last paragraph is a great summing up of sorts, and how fitting that Clare should get the last words in Gaskell's unfinished novel. Putting her to rest seems so appropriate. Although she has made such fun of her throughout the book, she has also reminded the reader, on the previous page, of Clare's 'grievances', 'envies', and 'annoyances'. Not to mention the many vexing anxieties throughout the book, or the sarcasms she gets from her husband. The life of a goveness!
And look who's tucking her in. Molly. Such beautiful symmetry in the book. It began with Molly being put to bed as a child, in Clare's 'little white bed in the cool and pretty room.' And 'Clare covered her up with a light shawl, and darkened the room.'
Framed by these two lovely scenes is the rest of the novel, aptly described by Frederick Greenwood in his postscript, and quoted by Bellamarie: 'an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions...much weakness, many misdeeds, sufferings long and bitter.'
I'm not sure I can agree with Greenwood's opinion that 'little remains to be added to it.' To the unfinished book. That 'little' may have contributed to the author's sudden death. Too many insuperable difficulties standing in the way to a happy ending. Reinventing Roger was certainly one of them. She made a beginning with the pyhsical changes he came back with. After Cynthia he could be seen as damaged goods and he knew it. Determining the next Squire Hamley put the author under tremendous stress. Little Osborne's life is hanging by a thread, judging by the many comments on his fate from various characters already mentioned, including Lady Harriet, Clare, Miss Goodenough, the squire, Molly, and her father, the doctor who is proud of having saved the little boy's life. To me this seems like uncertainty on the author's part, perhaps even preparing the reader....
'My boyish love for Cynthia- her manners and her beauty bewitched me.'
His first love! Will that turn out to be the fondest memory? Perhaps the book would have been better titled by Brothers and Sisters. Those were the best and truest relationships in the book.
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Hasn't it been a painful journey for the squire. Very touching to read about his grief in the face of death. His wife, His gamekeeper. His son. Gaskell depicted it each time with feeling and artistry. Perhaps she was also dreading the death of the grandson with a heavy heart for the squire's sake. Much left for the reader to ponder.
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As for Cynthia and Molly, even though they were close, I never got an emotional attachment to their relationship as sisters, the way I did with Roger and Osborne. I think the fact that Cynthia used Molly and then subbed her was something I had a difficult time with overcoming. I loved Molly's kind heart and loyalty to Cynthia, regardless of how she mistreated her.
I have five sisters, and a few of them are like Cynthia. I was the Molly of the six sisters, so I immediately related to her always forgiving heart. Maybe, this is why I just could not bring myself to like Cynthia.
The relationship between Roger and Osborne was especially endearing to me. In the beginning Lady Hamley and the Squire have all expectations on Osborne, saving the best wine for him. Yet, Roger has a kind quiet soul, and shows absolutely no envy of his brother "the prodigal son." Roger turns out to be highly regarded in the field of science, and is a success in his own right. I was sorry Osborne had to die in this story, I would liked to have seen more of a story line with him and Aimee, and the Squire accepting them as a couple.
This summed up Osborne and Roger so well:
Here are Osborne and Roger, two men who, in every particular that can be seized for description, are totally different creatures. Body and mind they are quite unlike. They have different tastes; they take different ways: they are men of two sorts which, in the society sense, never "know" each other ; and yet, never did brotherly blood run more manifest than in the veins of those two. To make that manifest without allowing the effort to peep out for a single moment, would be a triumph of art; but it is a "touch beyond the reach of art" to make their likeness in unlikeness so natural a thing that we no more wonder about it than we wonder at seeing the fruit and the bloom on the same bramble: we have always seen them there together in blackberry season, and do not wonder about it nor think about it at all.
Any other author may have taken these two brothers and pitted them against each other, especially with the parents favoring Osborne so much, yet instead Gaskell turned them into their brother's keepers. Absolutely wonderful!
I have two sons who are only a couple years a part, and they are now married with kids, and it amazes me how close they are, and active in each others lives, with no jealousy what so ever. My first born son Mike was like Osborne, the scholar and all expectations on him, while my other son Jeremy, was more like Roger the physical outdoor type, given more the opportunity to be a bit more free in his choices. They each are successful today in their own right, and as a parent I truly marvel at the respect, loyalty and love they have for each other. A parent's treasure! Jeremy coached his daughter's basketball team today and they were runner-ups. Mike coached his son's team, and they won the Championship, and Jeremy sat on the bench helping Mike out throughout the game. It so reminds me of Roger being there for Osborne, keeping his secret, helping him with his poems to be published, giving him his allowance, etc. The true story I felt was this relationship, overshadowed by Cynthia and Molly.
I'm not sure I understand why Gaskell titled it "Wives and Daughters," if I were to have given this story a title I'm thinking I may have called it..... "In My Sibling's Shadow"
Ciao for now~
p.s. Thank you Marcie, we are so very proud of both teams.
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Jonathon, Yes, my heart went out to the Squire throughout the book. I am so glad the baby did not die. I'm not sure I could have taken one more heartbreak for the Squire. It was heaven sent, that the baby would get ill, and Aimee and the Squire cling to each other, in hope and prayer little Roger would pull through. Did you also notice how Gaskell at first had the baby be called "Osborne," then later in the book, he is referred to as Roger. That was interesting, because the Squire had insisted it be Osborne, because there were already two Rogers.
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Jonathan: your summing up of the ending and how it parallels the beginning is excellent. It is a most memorable way to recollect the book after all the enjoyment we have had reading it together.
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I was browsing a bit yesterday and found a few interesting things:
"The Austen novel with which "Wives and Daughters" has the greatest affinities is "Mansfield Park". In both books the central male character (Roger/Edmund) is the younger son of an upper-class family, overshadowed by a flashier elder brother (Osborne/Tom), but steady, reliable and decent. In both books he is loved patiently and in secret by a quiet, demure girl (Molly/Fanny) but becomes infatuated with another woman, beautiful but flighty and superficial (Cynthia/Mary). In both cases the patient girl's devotion is rewarded with marriage to the man she loves; Mrs Gaskell died before she could write the final chapters of "Wives and Daughters", leaving it unfinished, but there can be little doubt that this is the ending that she intended. Mrs Gaskell left what may have been a deliberate hint that Austen's book was her inspiration; the Hamleys refer to Molly as "another Fanny", that being the name of their deceased daughter."
http://www.amazon.com/review/R2BEOMJ8KDXTIP/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R2BEOMJ8KDXTIP
"Gaskell and Charles Darwin were distantly related and they admired each other’s work—she modeled Roger Hamley of Wives and Daughters on Darwin."
http://janegs.blogspot.com/2009/11/top-ten-things-to-know-about-elizabeth_17.html
I can see the Roger/Darwin similarities.
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I absolutely adore Gaskell's last conversations, Mr. and Mrs. Gibson have with each other...she kept Clare as shallow as ever, but the humor always saves her, and allows the reader to enjoy her, with Mr. Gibson's cajoling her. These are too precious to not mention:
" That last sentence contained the germ of Mrs. Gibson's present grievance. Having married Cynthia, as her mother put it—taking credit to herself as if she had had the principal part in the achievement—she now became a little envious of her daughter's good fortune in being the wife of a young, handsome, rich, and moderately fashionable man, who lived in London. She naïvely expressed her feelings on this subject to her husband one day when she was really not feeling quite well, and when consequently her annoyances were much more present to her mind than her sources of happiness.
"It is such a pity!" said she, "that I was born when I was. I should so have liked to belong to this generation."
"That's sometimes my own feeling," said he. "So many new views seem to be opened in science, that I should like, if it were possible, to live till their reality was ascertained, and one saw what they led to. But I don't suppose that's your reason, my dear, for wishing to be twenty or thirty years younger." ;D
"No, indeed. And I did not put it in that hard unpleasant way; I only said I should like to belong to this generation.
To tell the truth, I was thinking of Cynthia. Without vanity, I believe I was as pretty as she is—when I was a girl, I mean; I had not her dark eyelashes, but then my nose was straighter. And now look at the difference! I have to live in a little country town with three servants, and no carriage; and she with her inferior good looks will live in Sussex Place, and keep a man and a brougham, and I don't know what. But the fact is, in this generation there are so many more rich young men than there were when I was a girl."
"Oh, ho! so that's your reason, is it, my dear? If you had been young now you might have married somebody as well off as Walter?"
"Yes!" said she. "I think that was my idea. Of course I should have liked him to be you. I always think if you had gone to the bar you might have succeeded better, and lived in London, too. I don't think Cynthia cares much where she lives, yet you see it has come to her."
"What has—London?"
"Oh, you dear, facetious man. Now that's just the thing to have captivated a jury. I don't believe Walter will ever be so clever as you are. Yet he can take Cynthia to Paris, and abroad, and everywhere. I only hope all this indulgence won't develope the faults in Cynthia's character. It's a week since we heard from her, and I did write so particularly to ask her for the autumn fashions before I bought my new bonnet. But riches are a great snare."
"Be thankful you are spared temptation, my dear."
"No, I'm not. Everybody likes to be tempted. And, after all, it's very easy to resist temptation, if one wishes."
They're coming home! She's bought me a shawl and a bonnet! The dear creature! Always thinking of others before herself: good fortune cannot spoil her. They've a fortnight left of their holiday! Their house is not quite ready; they're coming here. Oh, now, Mr. Gibson, we must have the new dinner-service at Watts's I've set my heart on so long! 'Home' Cynthia calls this house. I'm sure it has been a home to her, poor darling! I doubt if there is another man in the world who would have treated his step-daughter like dear papa! And, Molly, you must have a new gown."
"Come, come! Remember I belong to the last generation," said Mr. Gibson.
;D ;D ;D ;D
Straight laugh out loud moments!!! This melted my heart and I found there is no way I could end this book or discussion without admitting to loving Clare......just as she is! Mr. Gibson and Molly, were Cynthia and Clare's, yin and yang. I am placing Wives and Daughters on my shelf of "all time favorites," along side of Pride and Prejudice!!!
This was my first time ever reading Elizabeth Gaskell, but it will NOT be my last!
Ciao for now~
p.s. Jonathon, I must say, since you read to the end of the book early, I can see why you insisted on liking and defending Clare and Cynthia. It is not until the end of the book, Gaskell decides she wants her readers to really like them, just the way they are....flaws in all. That really is what life is all about, accepting people at their worst, and not overlooking their best!
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Jonathon,
And look who's tucking her in. Molly. Such beautiful symmetry in the book. It began with Molly being put to bed as a child, in Clare's 'little white bed in the cool and pretty room.' And 'Clare covered her up with a light shawl, and darkened the room.'
How did I miss this? Perfect ending!
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Bellamarie, you've raised so many interesting points I hardly know where to start. I'll first share a brief chuckle over that last conversation between Mr. and Mrs. Gibson. ROFLOL funny, with Mrs. G totally unaware of the implications of what she is saying, or of the implications of her husband's remarks, and his ironic comments.'
Then on to Mansfield Park. Have you read it? Until you look at it closely, it seems to be the least likeable of Austen's novels, but it grows on you when you reread it. YES, now that you mention it, there are all sorts of parallels. It starts with the young Molly's terror when she goes to the Towers, compared to Fanny's fears when she first comes to live with the Bertrams. The younger son, Edmund, comforts Fanny, and is her mentor as she grows up. Edmund falls in love with Mary Crawford, the Cynthia equivalent. Mary is more worldly and sophisticated than Cynthia, but very careful with her own behavior. Not with her opinions and language, though, and she actually utters the one dirty joke in all of Austen. (Yes, really, there is one, discretely phrased, read the book and find it.)
Unlike Molly, Fanny seems to be aware of her attachment to Edmund from an early age. She strikes me as one of those persons who doggedly sits next to something they want until everyone gives up and lets them have it, and she sort of does this here with Edmund. The ending makes total sense, though.
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Jonathan, I appreciate your pointing out the parallel in the beginning and ending that we have from Mrs. Gaskell. And Bellamarie, those exerpts are very funny. You're right, PatH, that Mrs. Gibson seems oblivious to her husband's comments. That adds to the humor.
As you say, Bellamarie, Mrs. Gaskell seems to appreciate the characters she created and though she shows their faults, she doesn't put them in such a bad light that we can't enjoy them.
JoanP, let us know what you think of the film. I have a copy of the DVD too but haven't watched it yet. Maybe we can keep this discussion open for a few days to see if anyone has more thoughts about the book or the film. I don't think I would have enjoyed the book as much if I hadn't heard everyone's comments about it. I think that a comparison of Wives and Daughters to Mansfield Park would be a lot of fun.
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PatH., No, I have not read Mansfield Park, but I am going to read it now, since I don't think I would be interested in Blue Highway with the club. I also want to begin The Book Thief that has been sitting on my desk for a month now, so I can then watch the movie. I was going to see the movie in the theaters but my granddaughter who read The Book Thief in high school, recommended reading the book first.
I want to thank all the moderators of Wives and Daughters, you ladies once again, did a marvelous job! This was a difficult book, a funny book, a book of stereotyping, prejudice, modernizing, etiquette, manners (good and bad) as Lucy felt, a book of relationships as Jonathon felt, and a book with many prisms as I felt. Gaskell kept our interest, in spite of a few places seeming long and repetitive. I will never forget these characters in this book, because each of them resemble a person I have known in real life. When an author can have her readers relating to her characters, as real life human beings, with flaws and unkind personalities, yet just enough, not too much so that you still see or search, for the goodness in them........she has accomplished a prize winning novel! My only regret is that Gaskell died too soon, and we will not have as many books to read from her. Her death before completing the last chapter, which is what we were told is where she died in this book, did in no way where I am concerned left anything unsaid, or undone.
We could see Molly and Roger would find their way to each other, we could see Mr. Gibson was madly in love with Clare in spite of his teasing, you could see Clare loves Mr. Gibson even though she wishes she could live in this generation, and we could see the Squire would accept Aimee, because he must in order to have the loving relationship with his sweet little grandson. He knew he wasted too much time in life harboring silent feelings, good or bad, where Osborne was concerned, and he was not going to risk his relationship with his grandson, by repeating the same mistakes. As for Lady Harriet and Preston, they were integral characters in the story, but in the end, not necessary to know more about, so to prolong the book that is already a large read, would not have been wise. We got a clear visual from the concluding chapter, of the beauty and success, Molly and Roger would share in their lives together, once he returned from Africa. The nosegay was the symbol of their love, and wilted as it may have been when he returned, their love would hold the lasting beauty of it the day he gave it to her. Jonathon, Yet one more symmetry in the story....the nosegay from Roger Hamley to Molly. I sensed when Roger sent that first nosegay, he was already in love with Molly, and just got mesmerized and sidetracked by Cynthia's beauty, as all the rest of the men did.
I absolutely LOVED Mr. Gibson in this story. He was firm when needed, he was a selfless husband, father, doctor and friend, and without his humor I would not have grown to appreciate, and come to accept Clare or Cynthia. As I said before.....if he could forgive, accept and love them, so can I!
Until our next discussion....Ciao for now~
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PatH...I'll dig out Mansfield Park to refresh memory - not to look for JA's only dirty joke...though I admit I'm curious...can't imagine it! :D
Marcie, I have read the Editor's remarks...and watched the first DVD of the story...which covers the first two episodes...up to the time Roger leaves for Africa. Have mailed it back and should get the next one very soon. So far I'm not seeing an evil Cynthia in this production - on the contrary. I see a young woman who finds in Molly a young woman, her own age, who is capable of loving others in a way that is foreign to herself. She marvels at this; she is seems wistful, sad that she cannot love as Molly does. As you watch the beautiful Mrs. Gibson, - and listen to her, it becomes clear how Cynthia grew up with a warped view of love...loving.
What did you think of the introduction of Mrs. Gibson's first love, Lieutenant Harper, at the end of the completed chapters? I wonder if she would have had more to say about how this affair affected her in the final chapters, had she lived.
Bella - you might want to read the discussion of The Book Thief in the SeniorLearn Archives. That was quite a spirited discussion, full of a lot of good information and links.
I'll echo your thanks to all the participants and Discussion Leaders. A long book, not an easy read as we thought at the onset. Everyone stuck together for two whole months! Thanks, ALL!
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A charming post, Bellamarie. Your enthusiasm and your insights have been the greatest inspiration and motivation in this spirited discussion. And many thanks to the one who proposed Wives and Daughters for discussion. An amazing tale.
What Gaskell had to do to uncover everybody's secrets. And they all had them. I'll always remember the squire's words of anguish: 'Why didn't he tell me'?
Thanks to everyone. What fun to read along with you all and to share your thougts.
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You're wry remarks have been much appreciated, Jonathan! Always right on - Guaranteed to bring on a smile! Thank you! To the end, your defense of Clare was admirable. You seem to see something in her that the rest of us did not fully appreciate.
Annie, I found some important clues as to where Mrs. Gaskell was going with the story from these remarks from the editor. Yes, it's clear that she will marry Roger (though I'm not sure how he can count on no other suitors while he is abroad. Remember that Molly has grown into an attractive young woman now) - the young men at the Towers were swarming around her at the Towers). About those concluding observations from the editor. Important to remember that Mrs. Gaskell did not know she was going to die when she had conversations with him, so she most likely did not volunteer all of her plans for the final chapters But what she did let on to him was revealing.
"If any one suffers for it, it is Mr. Gibson. This refers to Molly's departure to live in London.) He looks forward to running up to London "to stay with Molly for a few days now and then," and "to get a little rest from Mrs. Gibson." I can only imagine what his life was like in this empty nest.
When the editor refers to an "abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions, into one where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter" I never really thought he was saying that of Mrs. Gaskell's world. I didn't see base selfishness, weakness perhaps in Cynthia. Cynthia was torn between following her mother's directives - and responding to the admiration of others, which she desperately needed. Not "abominable selfishness."
The editor again - when discussing the contrast between Roger and Osborne..."To be sure, Cynthia "belongs to the kind of characters...conceived only by hands obedient to the finest motions of the mind. Viewed in this light, Cynthia is a more important piece of work even than Molly, delicately as she is drawn." I'm ready to give Cynthia a pass -and extend every hope that her future is a happy one with Mr. Henderson, having learned much from Molly about constancy in love.
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Regarding the editor's remarks: "While you read any one of the last three books we have named, you feel yourself caught out of an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions, into one where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter, but where it is possible for people to live calm and wholesome lives; and, what is more, you feel that this is at least as real a world as the other."
What I thought he was saying is that the actual world of the time may have been seen (at times) as an abominable wicked world, crawling with selfishness and reeking with base passions but Mrs. Gaskell catches us out of that world into one that she has skillfully created where there is much weakness, many mistakes, sufferings long and bitter, but where it is possible for people to live calm and wholesome lives. I agree with his assessment that you feel that this is at least as real a world as the other.
I enjoyed the book very much. More so because of everyone's contributions to the discussion. Thank you very much.
The PBS series website has lots of interesting information at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/wives/whos_who.html
In the left column you can click on more links including one to an excerpt from the novel and, below it, how the dialog in the film was adapted.
What a cast!! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/wives/whos_who_credits.html
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I began reading Mansfield Park today, I am up to chapter XI and indeed there are many similarities jumping out at me. I am sadly missing the Gaskell humor, that was so much fun in Wives and Daughters. Mansfield Park is a bit dry, and tedious so far, but I already like the characters, and plot so I shall stay with it. There are short chapters, and only 279 pages if I am not mistaken. (I am reading it online.)Should be done quickly to go on to The Book Thief!
PatH., Thank you for the heads up: "you might want to read the discussion of The Book Thief in the SeniorLearn Archives. That was quite a spirited discussion, full of a lot of good information and links."
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Bellamarie, we discussed Mansfield Park here too, but it seems to be one that got lost in the switch. One of the important events of the book is the young people's staging of the play Lover's Vows, by Elizabeth Inchbald. It's available on line, and it's worth reading it, because you can see that Austen was using the play as a framework for that part of the book, and maybe even sculpted her characters to fit.
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PatH. I am on chapter XVIII of Mansfield Park, they have finally decided who will play all the characters in the play, Lover's Vows. Edmund is so against the play, but has to give in to playing Anhalt, since he does not want any outsiders involved. And poor Fanny is scared to death to play the cottager's wife.
So far the comparisons I see to Wives and Daughters are:
Tom is like Osborne, he is the eldest brother, who has foolishly spent family money.
Edmund is like Roger, who is to become a clergy, and is Fanny's protector and adviser.
Fanny is of course like Molly, a bit naive and is secretly caring for Edmund as Molly did Roger, seeing it as brotherly love.
Miss Crawford reminds me of Cynthia, only in the way she can be a bit manipulating, and is smitten with Roger, and she seems to want to be friendly with Fanny to impress Edmund.
Julia and Maria Betram (sisters), could be a bit like Cynthia and Molly, but it's a bit of a leap for me.
Other than those similarities, I have to say at this point, no more are jumping out to me. I'm hoping this book gets more enjoyable, so far it's very dry, and boring for me, especially after coming off of reading Wives and Daughters.
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Finally received the last episode of the BBC production of Wives and Daughters - I really did like the casting...Justine Waddell was perfect as Molly. Have to wonder what Elizabeth Gaskell would have thought of the ending. Molly and Roger in Africa. Maybe it's just what she had planned after all! ;)
(Noticed too that Justine W. was born in South Africa.)
I think one of the most outstanding differences between Molly Gibson and Fanny Price was their childhood...Molly was a happy and child, brought up with the love of her father and her mother's friends. Elizabeth Gaskell was able to inject humor into the story without compromising the underlying serious issues of the story.
Haven't had a chance to go back and reread Mansfield Park, but do remember back when we read it here - that it seemed to be missing Jane Austen's wit. Her rather joyless heroine seemed to snuff all the lightness and humor that we enjoyed in Wives and Daughters.
Pat and JoanK, you two are life-long Austenites...can you comment on how Mansfield Park is regarded, compared to other works of JA?
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I think most Austenites would say it was their least favorite book. I got to like it better when we discussed it, and I thought it over more carefully, but it's probably my least favorite too, with Northanger Abbey close.
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PatH., I am going to say, at this point of the story, I would agree with you about this being a least favorite.
JoanP., Yes, Molly was brought up a happy child, but Fanny was also happy while with her family. She seems such a timid character. I like the relationship Fanny has with her older brother William.
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Mansfield Park - you agree is the least favorite of all Jane Austen's books. Not as agreeable as Wives and Daughters,Pat I suppose the next question has got to be - WHY?
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Wives and Daughters certainly turned out to be something unusual with its strange mix of light and serious. It did give one much to think about. I can't explain it, but I kept wondering if there was something of Charlotte Bronte in Molly. Perhaps it was that governess, Miss Eyre, that suggested it.
What does one read next after such a good book. I think I've found it. Right there in my TBR stack: Fathers And Sons, by Alexander Waugh, grandson of Evelyn. Looks promising. Alexander goes rummaging in the Waugh closets.
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Jonathan - This week we're collecting nominations for April's group discussion in the Suggestion Box (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=309.msg217410#new) Why don't you nominate Fathers and Sons? We'll be voting next week.
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Good question Jonathon,
What does one read next after such a good book.
I just finished Mansfield Park by Jane Austen, and was so terribly disappointed. You can't come off such a great read as Wives and Daughters and not feel let down with anything less than Gaskell's fine mix of drama, humor, relationships, family, etc.
Never throughout the entire story did I root for Fanny and Edmund, the way I did for Molly and Roger. There was a brotherly love with each set, but Fanny was such a boring, sanctimonious personality, I just didn't feel connected to her like I was with Molly. I must say when she was sent back to her home, and the way she despised her parents and their house, was hard for me to comprehend. There she seemed ungrateful and spoiled, just as Mr. Betram felt she was at his home. No, Mr. Crawford was not the one for her, but I just felt like she was terribly judgmental of everyone. Not one of Austen's finest novels.
Now I contemplate beginning The Book Thief, hmmmm....
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I haven't read Mansfield Park recently but I've read it a couple of times and I don't remember that I had as negative reaction to it as you did, Bellamarie. It may be because I had not just read Wives and Daughters in which the contrast with the very good Molly and Cynthia, who is hurtful to Molly, makes Molly's goodness shine rather than seem sanctimonious. I've seen a couple of film adaptations of the novel and in the 1983 version starring Sylvestra Le Touzel as Fanny Price, I thought that Fanny seemed sanctimonious. In the 1999 film directed by Patricia Rozema, starring Frances O'Connor as Fanny and Jonny Lee Miller as Edmund Bertram, Fanny was quite feisty.
Anyway, I do agree with you that Wives and Daughters was a great read with, as you say "Gaskell's fine mix of drama, humor, relationships, family, etc."
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Fanny is somewhat sanctimonious, but so is Edmund. Their standards are the same. (This is a sticking point with Mary Crawford--she doesn't want to be married to a clergyman.) In the end, Edmund realizes how like they are, and how comforting a presence she is.
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Reading Wives and Daughters, I was amazed at how good it is. It's inevitable to compare the book to Austen's works, and it holds its own. Austen is the better writer, and her plots are more carefully constructed. Her humor is more understated and subtle. With Austen, you smile, with Gaskell you laugh out loud. Her scope is narrower. To quote JoanK: "Austen is like a microscope, a narrow field of vision, but in that field she doesn't miss the tiniest detail".
Gaskell has a wider scope. Sometimes I found myself saying "Austen would never have written that". G can portray a wider range of social classes well and sympathetically. Look at the wonderful scene in which Lady Harriet calls on the Browning sisters and catches Miss Browning with her head tied up in a shabby old silk cap. A would never have gotten that right. And Gaskell sympathizes with some very flawed characters, which Austen would not have done.
Beside that, this book has been a really delightful read. When it was suggested, I wondered if it would be a good choice, but I sure was wrong there. I'm very grateful to all of you, for suggesting it, and for making this such a good discussion, pointing out all the things I didn't see. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you all.
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Thanks, Pat. I think you've summed up what many of us are feeling about this novel. I read a review somewhere in which it was suggested that the reason Elizabeth Gaskell has not been given her due was because her novels were in print only in installments, not the lasting novels one finds on the library shelf.
So happy it was suggested here and that our readers brought it to life.
Thanks everyone! Hope to see you all again real soon!