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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15
Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/aliceinwonderland/aliceinwonderland.jpg) |
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll.
We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.
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Let us know you'll be joining the discussion when we begin on April 15.
You can read the novel online (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)
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Welcome to our "prediscussion." We look forward to seeing who will be interested in joining the discussion in mid April. It should be lots of fun to talk about all of inhabitants of Alice's wonderland and make our own adventures unravelling some of the logic puzzles contained in the story.
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Welcome to all. I remember how much I liked the book years ago, and can't wait to share it with everybody, and get your ideas on it. You always have such good insights into things. This will be fun.
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I have never read the book, but seen the many adaptations of the movie. It happens to be my 18 yr old, and 9 yr old grand daughters favorite movie. I introduced it to both of them when they were just 3 yrs. old, and they still watch it when they come for visits and sleepovers. Yes, my 18 yr old still graces us with her presence even though she works two jobs, is in her freshman year of college and was accepted into the KD sorority. I played the movie for my sweet little 3 yr old Zoey, just a couple of weeks ago on a snow day, and now she can't stop talking about in her words, "The rabbit movie." My son had no idea what she was talking about when she went home and kept asking to see "the rabbit movie." He called me and asked what on earth is she asking for. :D
I begin my spring break April 14th - 22nd, so I will try my best to check in. I am so happy to see I can read it online!
Ciao for now~
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I'm not too strong on logic puzzles, or insights, good, bad, or indifferent, but I feel young enough and curious beyond reason to check out a rabbit hole. Never been down one. Never been there, done that.
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I will read this. See you april 15.
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I intend to participate...I've always found the story somewhat confusing - felt I was missing something others found amusing. I'm interested in delving into the annotations, though I've read that Louis Carroll wasn't happy when people started delving into what was behind the tale he had spun for little Alice Liddell.
I received this annotated copy as a gift years ago...this seems to be the perfect time to dust it off and discover what Lewis Carroll based these delightful characters on...
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/aliceinwonderland/annotated-alice2.jpg)
ps Bella, your little granddaughter might love one of the wonderfully illustrated Alice in Wonderland books available.
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What a nice group we have already, bellamarie, Jonathan, bluebird and JoanP. We should have at least as much fun as our collective grandchildren falling down that rabbit hole together.
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JoanP., What a beautiful copy of the book! This does seem like a classic, I should have on my shelves to share with my grand daughter.
I am very claustrophobic, so I hope I don't experience one of my anxiety attacks, falling into that rabbit hole with y'all. :o
I do look forward to it though, after all, tis the season for bunny rabbits, Peter Cottontail and all...we just spotted one in our yard the other day!
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Oh Bella, I wouldn't overwhelm the little one with the Annotated copy, though. TOO much "scholarship." Just a book with Lewis Carroll's charming story that appeals to her so much...with illustrations to add to the experience!
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Too much scholarship? Impossible. Alice in Wonderland is a mainstay of western civilization when you think about it.
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I wasn't thinking of using the annotated copy for my grand daughter. I was commenting on how wonderful JoanP.'s copy is. Illustrations would be a must for my little 3 yr. old Zoey.
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Jonathan, we'll have to explore that angle of "mainstay of western civilization" as we talk about the book!
The original illustrations, by John Tenniel, were in black and white but they are terrific.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/114/114-h/114-h.htm
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Oh Marcie what a wonderful link you have provided us with. I love illustrations!
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hi there
just dropped in to see what the next month's read was....interested to hear its 'Alice In Wonderland' ...at a garage sale got an old copy of the book...then I realized it was in Ontario......we leave next week heading north from sunny North Fort Myers, am really sad to go, but we have to be out of the country by April 15...so this will work great and meanwhile will read from the online copies of the book....great choice, have never read the book though know the story of course and have seen a movie version....will try and ask the library up north for an annotated copy of the book as it sounds like it will add a lot to the read....good to hook up with you guys again as so many perspectives and thoughts to add to the ones I have when reading and it gives so much added scope.
please count me in
all the best
Deb
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Deb, it's good to see you here. My library has many annotated copies--hope yours does too.
Bellamarie, it's impossible for me to think of Alice without seeing Tenniel's illustrations in my mind.
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So excited, just ordered my hard copy of Alice In Wonderland Annotated Definitive Edition. Got it used and should be here by April 4th. I hope one day one of my grand daughter's will be as excited as I am to read it! JoanP., thank you so much for sharing your copy, I would not have known the differences. I really believe some books are great for ereaders, while others are a MUST own copy.
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Deb, it's wonderful to know that you will be joining us in mid April. I hope you have a good end to your travels.
Bellamarie, I'm glad that you found a used version and that it will arrive soon.
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looking thru books to do with 'Alice in Wonderland', in the 2 libraries I use in Ontario, there doesn't seem to be an Annotated copy of the book; but came across these & will look into when I get up there
Alice In Wonderland-philosophy curioser and curioser....ed by Richard Brian Davis
The Mystery of Lewis Carrol discovering the whimsical thoughtful and sometimes lonely man who created Alice in Wonderland by Jenny Woolf
Alice in Wonderland notes by Carl Senna---------------I think this is the Norton's critical edition
if I time things right I can request an annotated copy but I'd better be there to pick up the book when it comes in
ironically am reading "An Uncommon Woman, The Empress Frederick Daughter of Queen Victoria, Wife of the Crown Prince of Prussia, Mother of Kaiser Wilhelm by Hannah Pakula
and among the pictures in the book is a cartoon picture titled "Dropping the Pilot"--the famous "Punch cartoon by Sir John Tenniel (illustrator of "Alice in Wonderland) about Wilhelm II's dismissal of Bismarck, March 1890"
interesting how when one reads quite often a coincidence like this can happen where something about the reading crops up in a 'subject unrelated ' book!!
Deb
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Deb, I think we are noticing those little coincidences popping up, more and more often as we read. Especially how certain authors knew each other, and you notice they have similar writing styles, and use characters from others stories, to base some of their characters on. It's really fun finding those little treasures along the way.
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Deb, those books sound good. I'll look in my library for them also.
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Deb should have a fine journey's end. Spring has returned to southern Ontario. The sun has come out. The snow is nearly gone. The robins have returned. My neighbor is busy in his garden. All's well with the world. I'm eager to follow any rabbit that comes along.
How are you enjoying the book about Vicky and Fritz? I have the book and have been meaning to read it. That is a famous cartoon of Bismarck leaving the ship of state with the Kaiser looking on, showing great dignity and determination, just as there is a hint of that on the face of the mad Hatter on page 75 of my Alice. Illustrating Alice must have made John Tenneil famous. He is Sir John with the Bismarck cartoon, twenty-five years after Alice.
The whole photo section of An Uncommon Woman does suggest anther wonderland with all that royalty.
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http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/CarAlic.html
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Interesting note, Jonathan, that John Tenniel was knighted. I discovered he was knighted by Queen Victoria in 1893 for his artistic achievements. I'm glad you'll be joining us down the rabbit hole.
Bluebird, thanks for the link to a version of the text with the illustrations.
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Jonathan: thanks for the info about Ontario, a friend phoned a couple of weeks ago and our garage roof caved in from accumulated snow, apparently we weren't the only one around our area, others have fallen to the snow load as well.... the tires on my car burst from the pressure on the roof on the car during the fall....will be interesting when we get home they had to plow out the driveway, put a tent up and a number of things are stored there, bit of a downer---good news is now it will be easier to put in a cement floor when we redo the garage
as to Vicki and Fritz, amazing read, learning a lot from reading this, what a person Vicki was with her move to Germany on her marriage what with the change in customs for her, so many 'rules' to follow what with her father-in-law and mom-in-law being the type of people they were, lucky for her to find a man like she married that she could love and who would listen to her and respect her for her ideas and not lord over her....unfortunately am only 200 and a bit thru the book and will probably not be able to finish...no library near me in Ontario seems to have it; maybe they can locate a copy for me though outside our county. It's woman's month here in Florida and they have copies of books about amazing women of today and yesteryear (many books out on display) and hence found this book in Fort Myers library.
it is a fascinating read....didn't know much about Bismark before...
Deb
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Today I got my copy of The Annotated Alice The Definitive Edition with Alice's Adventures In Wonderland & Through the Looking Glass. When I opened it I was shocked! I bought it used "LIKE NEW," and it was a mess! There are highlights, notes, lines drawn through sentences, and just scribbled opinions all over. I called the company and they said they were sorry and would send me another one immediately. Good thing is, it only took them 3 days to get it to me, and I can keep this one until I receive my new one. No extra charges, and they pay the shipping to return it.
I started reading, Introduction To The Annotated Alice and must share this with all of you, Gardner sates, "There are two types of notes I have done my best to avoid, not because they are difficult to do or should not be done, but because they are so exceedingly easy to do that any clever reader can write them out for himself. I refer to allegorical and psychoanalytic exegesis. Like Homer, the Bible, and all other great works of fantasy, the Alice books lend themselves readily to any type of symbolic interpretation__political, metaphysical, or Freudian."
Now with a group like us, can you only imagine where we are going to be going in our discussion? I fear we will be going far more places, than down a rabbit hole, and oh how I look forward to it! Sweet dreams until then.....
Ciao for now~
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Annotated Alice arrived today!
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Are the notes and scribbled opinions' legible, Bellamarie? Sometimes the marginalia stuff is quite interesting. And then the highlighted lines. What better proof than that, that we can and should take this book seriously. Most amazing to read thatAlice can be classed as one of the great literary fantasies, which include Homer and The Bible!
I must find an annotated copy of this wonderland book. I did pick up a beautiful, gold-embossed, gift copy for a dollar. Inscribed: 'Christmas, 1975, to Buck, love from Kim - hope you enjoy it.' Buck, according to his bookplate stamp was a registered professional engineer. Alas, he left no notes or opinions in the margin. Tunneling may not have been his thing.
I remember all the lost opportunities. The greatest place in the world in which to meet up with rabbits, is the very nice walk around the Nauset marsh on Cape Cod. At Fort Hill. The narrow path is edged by high, dense grasses. One after the other these little bunnies appear on the path, do their bows a few feet away, and then disappear into the the dense vegetation. Never did I think they might be an invitation to adventure - physical, metaphysical, psychiatrical, whatever.
Closer to reality, thanks to Deb, I've enjoyed the christening of Queen Victoria's first child, Vicky, on February 10, 1841. What a glittering ceremony and banquet. I can't resist quoting from the book: Prince Albert was exceedingly proud of his firstborn, who did not cry but remained awake during the ceremony and 'seemed to crow with immense satisfaction at the lights and brilliant uniforms.' From this behavior, the baby's father concluded that his daughter was 'very intelligent and observing.' The Prime Minister, Lord Melbourne, also venturerd to say that Vicky looked as if she was 'quite conscious that the stir was all about herself!' adding portentously, 'This is the time the character is formed!'
We get to meet the queen in our book, don't we?
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Jonathon, I have to admit, once I calmed down about seeing all those markings, highlights and scribbled notes and talked to the company and they are sending a new book, I started going through and reading the notes. I'm thinking just maybe I should have allowed this person to be a part of our discussion....oh drat I have to return the book, so I won't be charged for it. You MUST get your hands on the Annotated copy, it is so insightful! I can barely wait for this discussion to begin. I never imagined there was so much in the creating of Alice's story. Some things about Lewis Carroll have me going huh??? ::) ::) ::)
Jonathon, what book of the Queen's family are you and Deb reading? I have read many books about them due to my love of Princess Di and her two sons.
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kidsal, that's great that you have the annotated version too and will be joining our group. Bellamarie, I'm glad that you'll be getting a "like new" version. Maybe you'll have time to read more of the owner's notes before you have to return the copy you were sent. It will be fun to share our thoughts, whatever their origin.
Jonathan, your wit will fit right in with our adventures. I'm laughing at your picking up on the excerpt from Gardner in the Annotated Alice when you say "Most amazing to read that Alice can be classed as one of the great literary fantasies, which include Homer and The Bible!" ;)
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I can't believe it. Now I'm not satisfied that I have an old copy of Alice ....but have had to start looking into getting an annotated copy as it really sounds interesting and would make the story 3 dimension interesting outside the scope of the original story. Apparently the definitive edition is by gardener after 'another annotated edition published by him 1990, the origional published by someone else ....was written in 1959.....someone who wrote a review online is so keen on 'Alice' they stated they can't go more than 2 weeks without delving into the book!!!!!!!!!..............so now with my house in an uproar, and only 3 days till we leave I need to find a copy of this book as my compulsion insists I do.
oh well, hope to have it to read on the trip
Deb
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Deb, even if you don't find the "definitive" annotated version before your trip, I'm sure that we'll all enjoy Alice together. Those with annotated versions can provide additional information to our discussion. Since several of you indicate you have Martin Gardner's annotated version, I'm thinking of reading a Norton Critical edition, just to provide another perspective.
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Deb, If you can get your hands on an Annotated Definitive Edition, you won"regret it. Gardner combined the first Annotated copy and all the updated letters, pictures, etc.,into this final edition. There is so much information For every paragraph of the book, it really sheds so much light onto the story. If you can't get one no worries, we will have plenty sharing. Good luck
I just typed this on my newly purchased iPad Air! Still learning it, thank you to everyone for guiding me in my decision making.
Ciao for now
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I'm envious, bellamarie, on your iPad Air. I hope you have lots of productivity and fun with it.
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My copy is waiting to pick up at the library. The listing didn't say "the Definitive", but it did list Martin Gardner.
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'someone who wrote a review online is so keen on 'Alice' they stated they can't go more than 2 weeks without delving into the book!!!!!!!!!..............' from Deb's post.
I can relate to that. The dandy little hardcover book of Lewis Carroll's imaginative writing is giving me more enjoyment than I could have imagined. It's almost shocking. Have I reached that late stage in life that is compared to an early stage? I most definitely am going out to look for an annotated copy. And I hope it isn't a spoiler to suggest that reading Sigmund Freud's Interpretation of Dreams might make Alice even more meaningful. Someone suggested Freud's book as one of the best things ever written. I'm looking at my copy right now. Can you believe it? Alice isn't even mentioned. I can only conclude that Freud missed the boat on this one.
I've also discovered that my cat is eager to converse. We've just spent a deligthful half hour in which he patiently tried to teach me to meow properly. More lessons to follow on purring and caterwauling.
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Oh Jonathon, Gardner did not leave out the Freudian prose on our dear Alice. He includes a few psychiatrist's analysis on Alice. I have not gotten to reading it, but can't wait.
I have to chuckle, when you say, "someone" suggested Freud's book as one of the best things ever written." Could that "someone" have been Freud, himself?
Good luck on those meow lessons, my cat had his purr down purrrrfectly. ;D
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Frybabe, even if you have the earlier "annotated version" that should be fine. LOL, bellamarie, re Freud lauding himself.
Jonathan, we'll have to consult your cat as we get to the Cheshire's appearance in the book.
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On the whole I do not care for Freud except for his categorization of defense mechanisms. However, I have not read his Interpretation of Dreams so my knowledge of Freud's work is not complete. I have read some Carl Jung, including his work on archetypes and know a little about Myers and Briggs who built upon Jung work. Perhaps it is time to read Freud on dreams.
ps: I just checked my psyh book shelf. It appears I no longer have Jung's book on archetypes. Oh, well.
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Got my other Alice book, and have returned the marked up one. The notations in the first one by the owner was not legible enough to read, so as much as I would like to have used them for our discussion, I could not make out most of them. So, now the new "used like new" copy has NO markings whatsoever, but it is not the hard copy I ordered, instead it is a heavy cardboard. But at this point I just don't care to bother calling and sending it back to get yet another one.
I have to giggle when I think about how much weight people put in what Freud had to say back years ago. Now my go to person is Dr. Phil Magraw. While he is not a psychiatrist, he does have a degree in human physiology, and sociology, and who knows what else. He sure does call it like it is and does not let people use excuses for their behavior. I love his, "Take accountability" advice, and especially his, "What's YOUR payoff?" ::) ::) LOL
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15
Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/aliceinwonderland/aliceinwonderland.jpg) |
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll.
We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2
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Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.
April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2
Opening Poem
1. What kinds of information do you find in the opening poem?
2. What mood does the poem set for the story?
Chapter 1: Down the Rabbit Hole
1. What do you think of the first several paragraphs of the story?
2. What events or thoughts of Alice falling down the rabbit hole do you find especially interesting?
3. What humorous elements do you see when Alice finds the gold key and then finds the bottle with the label, 'Drink me'?
4. What are some of the morals that Alice remembers when she finds the bottle?
5. What other thoughts do you have about this chapter?
Chapter 2: The Pool of Tears
1. As Alice feels different, in great part to growing and shrinking so many times, she begins to wonder if she's been changed into someone else. In literal fashion she tries to compare herself to some of her friends to see if she might be one of them, who are not as clever as she. What do you think of some of the "fact" games she tries?
2. Have you found the original poem for which "How doth the little crocodile...." is a parody?
3. What parts of the conversation Alice has with the mouse do you find especially humorous?
4. What other related background have you found or what other thoughts do you have about this chapter?
You can read the novel online (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)
I've just located an Annotated Alice in our library system and should have it in a few days. I wish I had asked you to send me that marked-up copy, Bellamarie. It sounds to me like something someone was using to do a doctoral thesis!
I find it very difficult choosing between Dr Freud's defense mechanisms and excuses, and Dr Phil's accountability solution for getting out of life's nasty scrapes. Let's ask Alice.
My cat, Lucky, says he would be delighted to participate in the discussion. He seems to know something about it. He seems to think that Alice wasn't getting the right message from the grinning Cheshire. It's a cat's tail that one must watch to get a clear meaning.
Isn't it fun trying to communicate with animals. And it can be so therapeutic. I often wonder if Saint Francis needed the birds to whom he preached more than they needed him. And haven't we always been told by the wisemen to observe some animal species or other and to see a role model in them? And here is Alice to introduce them all to us avid readers. The wisdom they show is truly astounding.
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Bellamarie and Jonathan, I'm glad that you have your annotated versions lined up. I hadn't thought about Alice as being an animal book but you're right, Jonathan, that it has lots of animals to perplex and enlighten Alice. Maybe we'll keep a count/list of them.
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Oh Jonathon, I am so happy you got an Annotated copy of Alice. I would have been happy to mail that copy to you, although, I tried desperately to decipher the handwriting and could not make out much at all.
Marcie, My three year old grand daughter Zoey is enamored with the animals in Alice. All she can talk about is the rabbit and keeps asking me, "Nonnie is that rabbit bad?" Why do you suppose she sees him as bad? Oh, and now Humpty Dumpty is becoming her fascination. At lunch time today she insisted I read, MY copy of Alice. I loved how the five year old daycare little girl Gracie knew every single animal, and as I read the first chapter she kept interrupting me to tell me what happens next. I seriously have never watched the movie, nor read the story before, so she was truly impressing me.
Jonathon you get your cat Lucky, and I'll get Zoey and Gracie and we can let them give us their interpretations, since I no longer have the doctoral thesis scribbles. :D
Okay off to bed, for me. One more day to go, and I am on spring break!!! Sleeping in, no kids, and do what ever I want, when ever I want is the best way to spend my week off. Although we will be going to the indoor water park three hours away, Sunday and Monday, with my son's family, yes, Zoey is included, she and her six year old brother Zak must say, Nonnie a thousand times when we are together. We are also going to the Wright Air Force Museum, so their twelve year old brother can see it, he is determined to join the Marines when he graduates school. My hubby is thrilled to go since he served four years in the Air Force.
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie, I'm envious. What a great spring break you have planned, with your husband and the grands, at the water park and the WAF Museum. I've always wanted to pay that place a visit. It has a great reputation. We'll want to hear about when you get back.
It does bring back the wonder to see things through the eyes of a child.
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Well we just arrived home last night - Orillia, Ontario.....can`t believe it there was practically no snow all thru the drive and then when we hit Orillia practically every year was full of snow
pulled into a Toledo, Michigan Barnes and Noble and was able to get the `definitive annotated version `.....love the fact that this means reading more than just the book of Àlice in Wonderland`
Deb
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Bellamarie and Jonathan, it will be fun to see Alice through the eyes of a child and your cats ;)
Deb, I'm glad you got back without too much trouble and that you, too, have the annotated version.
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I picked up Alice at the library on Friday. It is indeed the Definitive Edition. So far I have just read the introductions.
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Frybabe, We'll start slow in talking about Alice in Wonderland, starting on April 15. We'll likely just talk about the first two chapters during the first week and then see how the pace suits us for the rest of the weeks.
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For me I am passing - hated this book even though the last time I sprung for the large annotated copy I ended up giving it to a girl who helped me clean out my closets - for some reason this author gives me the creeps - sincerely in spite of my personal feelings hope y'all really have a good time with this (said in a good sense) zany bit of chaos.
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I'm sorry you won't be with us, Barbara.
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We'll be starting our discussion of the book tomorrow (Tuesday). We'll talk about the opening poem and the first two chapters this week.
If you haven't already indicated what version of the book you're reading, please let us know.
I have the Norton Critical edition and I've borrowed the "Definitive Annotated Alice" from the library.
As we read and talk about the book, let's share information, as it becomes relevant, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
It might be fun to keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads. Since Jonathan mentioned it, I've noticed alot of references to various animals.
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Good morning!
I haven't started reading chapters yet. I am a little leery of the author after reading in the intro that Carrol had a predilection for little girls, and especially focused on one. Creepy is right Barb. That bit of knowledge may color my reading.
Why is it that so many (or so it seems sometimes) famous artists are riddled with perversions of various sorts? It is disappointing to discover such in authors I like.
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good morning everyone
woke up the morning to a winterwonderland.....and our snow was almost gone yesterday
when I think of the book ....I see 'gene wilder's character' and his zany sense of spirit....not sure if he was the mad hatter
looking forward to thoughts on the book....that review I read online from someone who is into this book in a big way, seems to me she said almost every two weeks she gets back into the book.... that intrigued me,... I don't really think I've read the book before
...a couple of times having read about an author has spoiled me from reading further books by him/her....hope this doesn't happen this time
Deb
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Good morning all!
Frybabe, there seems to be divergent views on Carroll's feelings about young girls, against the background of the Victorian era. At least one biography, which may be naive, finds no impropriety. It's by Jenny Woolf. See an interesting review at http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/books/2010/03/what_lewis_carroll_taught_us.html
Maybe we can talk about that controversy at the end of our discussion so, as Deb suggests, we don't color our reading and discussion with it.
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I think I may have mentioned earlier that I had a copy of this book in Ontario; and I find it is an old one with no year published that I can find on the book; but it was published by Blackie & Son Ltd., Glasgow, Great Britain.......illustrations by David Walsh....looking up online it appears the copyright ended about 1950 and there is a site showing the illustrators of the book (and there are quite a few) and this gentleman was about 1954 when he illustrated the book. ...I prefer the original illustrator to this one....going to see if I can find some other books with different illustrators to compare....
Deb
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I have to say I knew little to nothing about Carroll until reading the intro and then Google, that being said I almost decided NOT to read Alice. I was very turned off knowing he is suspected of having a fixation on little girls, especially taking nude photos. What parent would allow this? It reminded me of Michael Jackson. But...I do want to read and discuss the book, hopefully with an open mind. I can say this information is at the fore front even though I don't want it to be.
We are driving home from Cinncinati so I will have to post again when I get home since I left my reading glasses at home.
Ciao for now
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First day - loved the first questions on the opening poem...something I never paid attention to before, except to note the three Liddell sisters in the boat listening to the story as Carroll, (Charles Dodson) told it as they rowed a boat one summer afternoon. It's funny - if you didn't know the whimsical Wonderland story that follows such an introduction, you'd think a more romantic tale would follow.
Now that I really focus on the poem, I see that the poem is written as a sweet memory of the afternoon, as if the author is remembering a dream of an idyllic day in the past, in which he amuses the three girls with the story that follows.
How many times does Carroll refer to the golden afternoon as a dream ~ "the dreamy weather," "the dream-child"...
" where Childhood's dreams are twined,
In Memories mystic band,
Like pilgrim's wither'd wreath of flowers
Plucked in a far off land."
From the notes in the Annotated edition: Carroll photographed the real Alice with flowers on her head -
Anne Clark wrote a biography of Lewis Carroll - The real Alice: Lewis Carroll's dream child
This is the cover of her book - Carroll's photograph:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61qFMvKiH7L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
A few more photos of Alice by the author:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Alice_Liddell.jpg)(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Alice_Liddell_with_sisters.jpg)
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I read gutenberg chapter 1 and 2. Do we read chapter 3 and 4 next week?
The fan and glove are magic.
I have a question.
What bird is a lory?
Thank you JoanP.
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http://www.logicville.com/doublets.htm
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Deb, I hope you find another copy of the book with illustrations that you like.
Joan, that's interesting that you found so many references to a "dream" in the opening poem. Alice is sleepy in the beginning of the story and what follows is certainly dream-like in many ways.
Those photos of the real "Alice" are of a very interesting child. She seems older than her years. Her short hair is so different than the Alice illustrated in the story.
I understand that the last name of the Liddle girls rhymes with "fiddle" and "little." I can just hear Lewis Carroll reciting the poem and emphasizing "little."
All in the golden afternoon
Full leisurely we glide;
For both our oars, with little skill,
By little arms are plied,
While little hands make vain pretence
Our wanderings to guide.
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Bluebird, yes, I think we'll be moving on to Chapters 3 and 4 next week. If the pace is too slow, we can speed it up at the end of this week.
There seems to be a lot of "magic" in the first chapter, including the fan and the glove, yet (like in a dream), Alice accepts everything starting with the talking White Rabbit.
There is a picture of a beautiful Lory, with some information about them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lories_and_lorikeets
There are lots more photos at https://www.google.com/search?q=lory+bird&client=firefox-a&hs=1mx&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=WvxNU53II8jayAHRrYCIDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1457&bih=977
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Thanks for the link to doublets, bluebird. I never knew those puzzles were invented by Lewis Carroll. I'm not very good at them.
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A confession: I always thought Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass were the same book, just titled differently. It does not seem to be a particularly unusual occurrence, especially when a book is published overseas.
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Fry...your mention of the two titles reminds me of something I read years ago - though the memory is dim, in need of refreshing. The memory concerns the theory that Carroll might have written both stories to be considered together - to represent the Zodiac.
It might be fun to look at the characters we meet in the Wonderland book to see if we recognize any of the twelve signs..
Here's one article I found that addresses this idea:
"Curiouser and curiouser we thought, we read the books and realised that there is a strong possibility that Lewis Carroll's famous two stories of Alice did appear to match the Celestial Heavens. We are no mathematicians, however, the probability of writing a book which stars young Alice, who was so obviously a virgin (Virgo), where she meets other strange characters such as the twins (Gemini), a lion (Leo), a mock turtle (Taurus), plus many other characters which match a celestial counterpart (father William -Hercules, Humpty Dumpty -The Serpent Holder, White knight - Sagittarius) seems somewhat unusual, unless this of course this is what Carroll/Dodgson secretly intended."
http://globemakers.com/facsimile/globe_alice.html
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Reading the first paragraphs brought me back to the first time I read this story. It wasn't curiosity to learn what would happen next. It was more like a panic attack! How would Alice ever get home? If this was a dream...and I can see now that it was...to seven year old me, it was a nightmare. This little girl was falling deeper and deeper underground in the dark...and no one above ground had any idea where she was!
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Now that you say that, Joan, I'm surprised the opening didn't panic me too in a slightly different way. Being trapped in a tight space with no way out has always been one of my fears. I guess it seemed fantastical enough not to be real.
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Don't think I stayed panicked too long, but there were dark, almost sinister moments. I wasn't a scaredy cat as a kid, but found the tale unsettling. Maybe that's the attraction of the story ~ fear keeps you interested in what happens next?
As she was falling, Alice said something about how she wouldn't say anything even if she fell off the top of the house...and the author adds, "which was very likely true." She'd be dead?
My annotated note says this was the first death joke in the story - with "many more to come!"
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Interesting about the panic you felt, Joan. I guess I either didn't pay close enough attention to the story as I read it as a child or I just went with Alice's feelings that everything was sort of making sense, from the talking rabbit on (like a dream makes sense while you are dreaming but afterward becomes non-sense!)
We'll have to keep our eyes out for the "death jokes."
I'll have to check out that Zodiac article, Joan.
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I can tell you that when I was reading the first chapter at story time to my three year old grand daughter Zoey,(who for some reason has gotten a strong interest in this book) and daycare child Gracie, who is five years old, the look on their faces was certainly a bit of fear, as to what is going to happen to Alice. When I read Alice saying, "I must be getting somewhere near the center of the earth." and then she says, "I wonder if I shall fall right through the earth!" How funny it'll seem to come out among the people that walk with their heads downwards! Zoey and Gracie's eyes were that of fear and wonderment, and Gracie says, "Do the people really walk with their heads down? One of our favorite story time books is Topsy Turvey Tracey the Upside Downer Day, and Gracie said before I could reply, "Oh like upside down Tracey?"
Then when I read Alice saying, "Dinah'll miss me very much to-night, I should think!" Zoey said, "Aw her kitty will be sad."
I thought to myself, geez, this story seems a bit traumatizing for my sweet three year old grand daughter. What ever was this author thinking, and why is it considered a children's story? Not to mention, Zoey has become obsessed with the big white rabbit with pink eyes, and won't stop talking about it.
This book is way beyond imagination for a small child, and possibly even me, when you bring in the knowledge of the author, then the zodiac references, and all the other elements of what is actually in the book. Who knew? I am so glad we have the annotated copy to help us understand some of the thought process behind the writing.
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Bellamarie, thanks for sharing the reactions of the little ones. The youngest of the Liddell girls was age 8 when Lewis Carroll told them the story.
And Martin Gardner says that his notes are written for adults.
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http://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVihy_k5TfWcAxItjmolQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?_adv_prop=image&fr=goodsearch-yhsif&sz=all&va=charles+dodgson+family
click on picture you want to look at
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I've re-read the opening poem again and I very much admire it. I think it provides a perfect setting for the story. The narrator speaks with irony and whimsy. I think that Lewis Carroll loved telling stories to the three sisters and loved to pretend that it was a great chore. The notes say that he would pretend to fall asleep at key points during a story and have to be prodded awake to finish. The following stanza is such fun:
Ah, cruel Three! In such an hour
Beneath such dreamy weather,
To beg a tale of breath too weak
To stir the tiniest feather!
Yet what can one poor voice avail
Against three tongues together?
The next stanza paints a vivid picture of the personalities of the three sisters:
Imperious Prima flashes forth
Her edict to begin it
In gentler tone Secunda hopes
"There will be nonsense in it!"
While Tertia interrupts the tale
Not more than once a minute.
Bellamarie, your young charges seem to be somewhat like the youngest Liddell sister in interupting your story to ask questions or to comment.
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So many pictures, bluebird! It's hard to know which ones to look at first. Thanks.
JoanP, as a stargazer, I got a real kick out of Alice's celestial globe. Those interpretations are pretty hilarious. I'll try to notice if we get just 6 of the zodiac characters in this book, and if they're in order. The odd unfamiliar constellations are in the southern hemisphere, which has fewer interesting constellations.
I wouldn't want the globe, though; it's too hard to relate to the actual sky.
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Thanks, bluebird, for the pics, it's always nice to put faces to the persons. Marcie, yes, I think my two interested little ones are a bit too young for this story. Zoey came to spend the night today, and the first thing she said when she walked in the door was, "Nonnie, will you read me Alice in Wonderland?" I told her maybe later. Of course later, never came. I think I will pick and choose certain pages to read to her that are not to dramatic. She fell asleep watching Frozen. Marcie, I did like how we got a glimpse of the girls in that particular stanza.
I finished reading chapter two and all the annotations, and I find myself going back and re reading these pages so many times over. There really is so much hidden, in these pages. Who ever said, "A book, is just a book." may never have read Alice.
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bluebird, I missed the photos you posted. Thank you!
Photography was in it's infancy when Lewis Carroll became interested in it. This site says he is considered one of the best amateur photographers of his time: http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10253869
This site shows all of the equipment he would have used: http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10253869
It looks like both the photographer and the subject would need a lot of patience. Also, when an art form or technology is in its infancy, expectations are certainly different for it. Both the cumbersome apparatus and procedures and the newness of it, must have influenced the end results. Many of the poses are fairly exotic.
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(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4-fLyFXWjJ93BUIoI3G6uUnxLczGAVQEGAJh5Rx2Fpb-sPCQ2) (http://www.roanokeoutside.com/ckfinder/userfiles/images/NewRiverCave.JPG)
When my sons were younger, they loved to go caving or "spelunking" in one of Virginia's many caves. First, as cub scouts, they'd go to Luray Caverns, with guides...highly civilized and safe - electric lights throughout. Later they would go in more primitive caves, no electricity, relying on the little battery operated lamps strapped to their heads to help them see their way around. Each time they went, I had my heart in my throat, not resting until they got home. (They always came home! Full of stories about the bats, nesting in crevices or rocks, or hanging overhead in huge numbers.) My biggest fear was they would not be able to find the point of entry and would be lost underground. Another feeling I experience again reading this story.
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Until Alice figures out how to get through the little door into the lovely garden, I'm still shivvering at the bottom of the rabbit hole with her - with the bats, trying to let go of the initial fear I have always had when reading this story. First there was the falling, falling .... Then she's missing her cat as she sees the bats, wondering if cats eat bats... (the answer is yes - the danger, bats are often rabid)
Path, yes, that was another fear when she finally reaches the bottom of the whole, trapped in a small space, no way to get out - with the knowledge that no one knows where she is. Add to this yet another mystery...perhaps nothing sinister about it, but when she decided she couldn't even get her head through the tiny door, she turned around to see a little table on which she sees a little bottle labelled, "DRINK ME" - "which certainly was not here before."
So where did that bottle come from? Who put it there? Is there someone in the tunnel with her, watching her?
Was the author trying to frighten the Liddell children simply to pique their interest in the story? Kids enjoy ghost stories and mysteries, to experience the thrill and desire to know what will happen next. Marcie, thank you for the examples of Carroll's humor - and irony as he makes the children beg for more.
I'm ready to get out...I guess I'd drink the mysterious potion too. At this point what does she have to lose? After all, it doesn't say "poison" on the bottle!
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All this scary stuff: this isn't the first story Carroll had told his three little friends, and I'm guessing he knew his audience pretty well, and what they could handle. It's like the cartoons we watched as children; the cat gets run over, flattened into a brittle sheet which cracks int pieces, but a moment later he's chasing the mouse again. It's a different universe, with different rules.
The notes point out that Alice's remark that if she fell off the roof she wouldn't even mention it is the first of many death jokes. We'll have to watch for others.
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I'm sure that the Liddell children found it amusing that Alice is trying to keep her wits and her school-taught facts as she falls and wanders through the rabbit hole but that she is very mixed up.
It was all very well to say 'Drink me,' but the wise little Alice was not going to do THAT in a hurry. 'No, I'll look first,' she said, 'and see whether it's marked "poison" or not'; for she had read several nice little histories about children who had got burnt, and eaten up by wild beasts and other unpleasant things, all because they WOULD not remember the simple rules their friends had taught them: such as, that a red-hot poker will burn you if you hold it too long; and that if you cut your finger VERY deeply with a knife, it usually bleeds; and she had never forgotten that, if you drink much from a bottle marked 'poison,' it is almost certain to disagree with you, sooner or later.
However, this bottle was NOT marked 'poison,' so Alice ventured to taste it, and finding it very nice, (it had, in fact, a sort of mixed flavour of cherry-tart, custard, pine-apple, roast turkey, toffee, and hot buttered toast,) she very soon finished it off.
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JoanP., Asks, "is there someone else in the tunnel," since the bottle was not there before and now it is. Well, from my own experience, in a dream things appear and disappear at will, since after all it is a dream and does not have to follow any particular rule or format, sense and nonsense, is what most dreams seem to be. Carroll, knew his audience, since he has taken them out for boat rides before and told them stories, and yes, he seems to enjoy keeping them wanting more, even if it is scary. My Zoey sure does not seem to mind it scares her, she wants me to keep reading to her.
It reminds me of when we all just spent the night at Great Wolf Lodge, an indoor water park in Mason, Ohio. I had taken my grandson Zak and of course his little sister Zoey to turn in their arcade tickets for prizes on our last night there. Zak chose a small flashlight for one of his prizes. Later, in our room, the older boys decided to turn off all the lights in the hotel room, and then my son (their Dad) put the flashlight up to his face and oh boy, Zoey immediately said, "Don't do that Daddy, it is scaring me." So I said, okay let's turn all the lights back on, and Zoey says, "NO Nonnie, I want to see Daddy's scary face again." I'm like really? I thought she was just saying she was scared, yet she wanted more. I suppose this is just how the Liddell girls felt with Carroll's stories.
I'm with JoanP., I want out of this room, and see the beautiful gardens. I am tempted to sit and watch the movie tonight when I get back from the casino. Does anyone have any advice as to if it would ruin my first time reading this book, and be the first time ever watching the movie? Yes, no.....what say you?
Great pics, JoanP., your sons are brave young men. I have never seen a bat, and never want to. I had a friend who had a bat in her bedroom and woke them up at night. Her hubby did everything to shoo it out of their house. Months later, he showed up again. Ughhh....I get the chills just thinking about it.
Ciao for now~
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15
Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/aliceinwonderland/aliceinwonderland.jpg) |
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll.
We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2
April 21-27 Chapters 3 - 6
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Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.
April 21-27 Chapters 3 - 6
Chapter 3: A Caucus-Race and a Long Tale
1. What new creatures do we meet here?
2. When Alice, the birds and other animals get to the bank soaking wet, how does the mouse attempt to "dry them?"
3 When that fails, what does the Dodo suggest they do to dry themselves?
4. What is Carroll saying by using the term "caucus" to describe the race?
5. The mouse's tale is an example of "figured verse"--a poem whose shape on the page is an object relevant to the poem. Do you know any other examples?
6. Why do all the animals leave Alice at the end of the chapter?
You can read the novel online (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)
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My opinion is it would be better to read the book first. What does anyone else think?
And you're right; let's fan ourselves small and go on our way.
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the poem meant a lot more to me after reading the Gardner item telling of how the story came to be in print. A relaxing boat ride down a quiet river (no motorboats or cars or planes, WOW don't know if I've really been in that situation)with nice companions, a picnic lunch to look forward to, pure enjoyment.
....but for Alice asking to have the story written down we might not be having this discussion....??this was Lewis Carroll's first published book??....there might be so many other wonderful ones he made up in his entertaining Alice and her sisters that are never to be known
as for Alice's fall down the tunnel following the rabbit; I don't think kids of that time were protected the way they are now....Dicken's David Copperfield had the kids among drunks & fighting & filth, ..............even though they were the lowest of society I'm imagining trying to protect children from ugliness in that day might have been very hard and enough would creep into lives of younger ones to make them braver about the world around them....even when brought up in a small village/town as Alice and her sisters were brought up. Therefore scary things like falling down a tunnel being separated from one's parents & the narrator's tone of voice being familiar and comforting ( I am only imagining) would much scare away.
from The Mystery of Lewis Carroll by Jenny Woolf.........pg 14, Carroll wrote in a letter that he disliked boys because he had been a 'simply detestable' little boy, himself. Because of Carroll's dislike of little boys, one could not write he liked little children, and coming from a family with 10 siblings and himself I want to believe he just enjoyed the comradeship of younger ones who in their turn enjoyed his vivid imagination
Deb
unless a book is too hard to get into I prefer to read a book then see the movie, though I must say the movie version with Gene Wilder was a delight
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Bellamarie, thanks alot for sharing Zoey's reactions. It helps me to imagine the reactions of the Liddell girls and why Lewis Carroll made some of the decisions he did in writing the story.
Deb, I wonder too how many more wonderful stories we would have enjoyed if one of the children had asked Lewis Carroll to write them down. Or, perhaps, this one was different from the rest and that is why Alice asked for it to be written.
I agree with you, Pat and Deb, that Bellamarie might want to finish the book before viewing a film version. There are quite a few versions and each one that I've seen emphasizes something a bit different. I think you want your "own version" of Alice before you get the others inside your head.
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Alice gets too small by drinking the liquid and then she gets large --more than 9 feet high -- from eating the cake she finds. That brings us to the next chapter, THE POOL OF TEARS.
As Alice feels different, in great part to growing and shrinking so many times, she begins to wonder if she's been changed into someone else. In literal fashion she tries to compare herself to some of her friends to see if she might be one of them, who are not as clever as she. What do you think of some of the "fact" games she tries?
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I love to listen to Alice's conversations with herself - giving herself good advice, "though she very seldom followed it."
I'm beginning to get into the humor, the fantastical (is there such a word?) and leave off my own fears with the realization that the three girls are comfortable with such storytelling.
The realistic me wondered why Alice had to "polish off" the drink and "finish off" the cake. I would have done a little at a time. But this is not my story, is it? ;)
Now she is way too tall to get through the little door even though she can reach the little key again...
I have a lined notebook with an illustration of Alice on the cover, under a toadstool, with the words, "Curiouser and Curiouser." I think this expression is the one often associated with this story.
Could the white rabbit have helped her, had he not been so startled at finding her there? Did you take his reaction as indifference?
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"Who in the world am I?"
She must have been changed for Mabel, because she used to know a lot of facts - "Mabel knew very little." (The Liddell girls must have giggled at this reference to Mabel -I've a note here that says in the original version of the story, Ada and Mabel's names were Gertrude and Florence - cousins of the Liddell girls)
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Deb,
from The Mystery of Lewis Carroll by Jenny Woolf.........pg 14, Carroll wrote in a letter that he disliked boys because he had been a 'simply detestable' little boy, himself. Because of Carroll's dislike of little boys, one could not write he liked little children, and coming from a family with 10 siblings and himself I want to believe he just enjoyed the comradeship of younger ones who in their turn enjoyed his vivid imagination
I found this and felt it is possibly inferring that Carroll may have been sexually abused at the school, giving me pause as to why he would not like little boys and is fixated on little girls.
In 1846, young Dodgson moved on to Rugby School, where he was evidently less happy, for as he wrote some years after leaving the place:
I cannot say ... that any earthly considerations would induce me to go through my three years again ... I can honestly say that if I could have been ... secure from annoyance at night, the hardships of the daily life would have been comparative trifles to bear.[12 Collingwood, Stuart (1898). The Life and Letters of Lewis Carroll. London: T. Fisher Unwin. pp. 30–31.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Carroll
Now, getting back to the chapter, I found it very comical when Alice was talking to the mouse. She tried so hard not to mention her cat Dinah, so she changes the subject to dogs and then says, " and belongs to a farmer, you know, and he says it's so useful, it's worth a hundred pounds! He says it kills all the rats and__oh dear!" cried Alice in a sorrowful tone. "I'm afraid I've offended it again!" For the Mouse was swimming away from her as hard as it could go, and making a commotion in the pool as it went.
I am anxious to find out just why the mouse hates cats and dogs as he said he would tell her once they reached the shore.
Ciao for now~
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JoanP, yes, I think that getting into the mindset of Carroll telling this story to the Liddell girls, whom he knew very well, helps us to see the humor and suspense he creates. I can just hear them shouting to him..."why is Alice drinking the whole thing? Just because it doesn't say "poison" doesn't mean, it isn't. Why is she eating the whole cake?" It's sort of like those scary movies when the innocent person walks into a dark house and we're yelling at the screen, "don't go in there!!"
Carroll also was a logic teacher in "real life" and he may be teaching the girls logic through humorous "reverse logic." ;)
That's very funny, Joan, that Carroll used the names of their cousins to refer to children who didn't know very much.
Bellamarie, the girls must have found it very comical too when Alice was trying not to mention things that would upset the mouse but kept getting deeper and deeper into predator territory.
Bellamarie, your reference to Lewis Carroll's letter about Rugby School does seem to hint at sexual advances from fellow students or teachers. I guess we'll never know. I found it interesting to find out that, while he enjoyed being tutored by his adoring mother when he was younger, his reading was quite restricted. "The reading lists she carefully prepared for him testify not only to her devotion and dedication to the son she called 'dearest Charlie', but also, and less happily, to the rather stultifying 'properness' of Dodgson family life: almost all the books on his mother's list are religious texts of the preachy kind that Lewis Carroll would one day satirise in the pages of his first 'Alice' book." http://carroll-myth.wild-reality.net/briefbiography1.html
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http://www.aliceinwonderlandshop.co.uk/history.html
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http://www.poemhunter.com/lewis-carroll/
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Thank you marcie for the lory pictures.
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I found this especially interesting, the last paragraph in chapter II:
It was high time to go, for the pool was getting quite crowded with the birds and animals that had fallen into it: there was a Duck and Dodo, a Lory and an Eaglet, and several other curious creatures. Alice led the way, and the whole party swam to the shore.
The annotations say: Carroll's Dodo was intended as a caricature of him self_ his stammer is said to have made him pronounce his name "Dodo-Dodgson. "The Duck is the Reverend Robinson Duckworth, who often accompanied Carroll on boating expeditions with the Liddell sisters. The Lory, an Austrailian parrot, is Lorina, who was the eldest of the sisters (this explains why, in the second paragraph of the next chapter, she says to Alice, "I'm older than you, and must know better"). Edith Liddell is the Eaglet. It is amusing to note that when is biography entered the Encyclopedia Britannica it was inserted just before the entry on the Dodo. The individuals in this "queer-looking party" represent the participants in an episode entered in Carroll's diary on June 17, 1862. Carroll took his sisters, Fanny and Elizabeth, and his Aunt Lucy Lutwidge (the "other curious creatures") on a boating expedition, along with the Reverend Duckworth and the three Liddell girls.
Marcie, I remember reading that Carroll was very close to his father before he died. His mother restricted his reading, well, imagine that and he becomes a writer of fantasy. :o :o
bluebird, Thank you for the wonderful links. Love the pic of the shop and the pic of Alice.
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I found it interesting to find out that, while he enjoyed being tutored by his adoring mother when he was younger, his reading was quite restricted. "The reading lists she carefully prepared for him testify not only to her devotion and dedication to the son she called 'dearest Charlie', but also, and less happily, to the rather stultifying 'properness' of Dodgson family life: almost all the books on his mother's list are religious texts of the preachy kind that Lewis Carroll would one day satirise in the pages of his first 'Alice' book." http://carroll-myth.wild-reality.net/briefbiography1.html
That explains the many verses that are take-offs on sermonizing children's poems of the time. We've already seen one--How doth the little crocodile. My book gives the original:
How doth the little busy bee
Improve each shining hour,
And gather honey all the day
From every opening flower!
How skilfully she builds her cell!
How neat she spreads the wax!
And labors hard to store it well
With the sweet food she makes.
In works of labor or of skill,
I would be busy too;
For Satan finds some mischief still
For idle hands to do.
In books, or work, or healthful play,
Let my first years be passed,
That I may give for every day
Some good account at last.
Isaac Watts
I can just see a generation of Victorian children hooting at Carroll's versions of the goody-goody poems they endured.
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PatH., I remembered reading this poem, and what stuck out to me was this particular stanza:
In works of labor or of skill,
I would be busy too;
For Satan finds some mischief still
For idle hands to do.
I never really knew where or when I first heard this, but I used to tell my kids growing up to keep busy to stay out of trouble, because idle hands are the devil's work. I looked this up on Google and found the origination of the saying. It is also found in the Bible.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=7920
I found the following information at the Phrase Finders discussion forum:
"Nothing good comes from boredom. It's said that idle hands are the devil's workshop, an old saying dating at least as far back as Chaucer in the twelfth century who called idle hands the devil's tools."
"IDLE HANDS ARE THE DEVIL'S TOOLS - "Idleness is the root of mischief. This maxim has been traced back to Chaucer's 'Tale of Melibee' (c. 1386). First attested in the United States in 'Collections' (1808). The proverb is found in varying forms:: Satan has some mischief for idle hands to do; The devil finds work (or mischief) for idle hands to do." From "Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings" by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York, 1996). "
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_b...ssages/17.html
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Pat you say you "can just see a generation of Victorian children hooting at Carroll's versions of the goody-goody poems they endured." Me too and I bet the Liddell girls were laughing as he changed those poems. I think they are very clever.
Bellamarie, good research on the "idle hands" and interesting that Charles Dodgson had a stammer which didn't seem to appear when he was "Lewis Carroll" telling stories to children.
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As I read the posts, I wonder if Carroll was bullied at school rather than sexually abused. I would think that one who stammers/stutters would be taunted or laughed at. I remember such an occurrence when I was in elementary school. And then, he could have been labeled a Momma's Boy and gotten made fun of for that too.
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Whichever the cause, it looks like one reason the socially uncomfortable Dodgson liked the company of little girls was they were safe companions.
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Frybabe, you could be right about that and you too, Pat.
Pat and I are wondering how you all feel about the pace of our discussion. Would you like to speed up the reading a bit in the next week and take on the next four chapters (or whatever number suits) instead of just two? Let us know your thoughts. We'll start new chapters on Monday.
Meanwhile, what other related background have you found or what other thoughts do you have about Chapter 2?
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I'm still laughing over the parody of the poem that Pat found for us.
ORIGINAL
Against Idleness And Mischief
by Isaac Watts
How doth the little busy bee
Improve each shining hour,
And gather honey all the day
From every opening flower!
How skilfully she builds her cell!
How neat she spreads the wax!
And labors hard to store it well
With the sweet food she makes.
In works of labor or of skill,
I would be busy too;
For Satan finds some mischief still
For idle hands to do.
In books, or work, or healthful play,
Let my first years be passed,
That I may give for every day
Some good account at last.
LEWIS CARROLL'S VERSION
How doth the little crocodile
Improve his shining tail,
And pour the waters of the Nile
On every golden scale!
'How cheerfully he seems to grin,
How neatly spread his claws,
And welcome little fishes in
With gently smiling jaws!'
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I liked the pace of the first two chapters this week, especially since it dealt with the introduction too. I am off vacation on Monday and with the holiday behind us, we could probably go more than two chapters per week. I am happy with how ever you decide to do it.
Frybabe, It is very possible he was bullied during the day, which could be the "hardships of the daily life." My impression of possible sexual abuse came from "secure from annoyance at night."
He stated, "I can honestly say that if I could have been ... secure from annoyance at night, the hardships of the daily life would have been comparative trifles to bear."
My youngest son stuttered when he was growing up, especially if he had to do a reading in church. Our pediatrician said if we do not make too much of it, he will be comfortable and gain his confidence and grow out of it. Today he works in a position for Ford Motor Company and has to make oral presentations to VIPs convincing them his computer programs will save the company millions of dollars. I am sure he is still nervous, but not one stutter now that he is all grown up. I wonder if Carroll's friends made fun of his stutter.
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This is a confession - I don't get the parody- if that is what the little crocodile is supposed to be - of Isaac Watts' busy little bee. Can someone take me aside and explain why Alice is trying to remember these verses at this time?? I can see the lazy, slow- moving croc as a contrast to the busy bee - is that it?
I did notice in the Annotated that Watts also wrote, "O God, our help in ages past." Now I could understand If Alice had been trying to remember the verses to this hymn to get her out of this situation. :D
The pace is fine - but even if we speed up, I 'm certain we'll have posters who will pick up on interesting details.
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How do you suppose Alice addresses the author, her teacher. I imagine "Mr. Dodgson," don't you?
How do you think of him? I think I'll refer to him as Lewis Carroll when talking about his book, but when we're talking about the man, the boy, apart from his work, I'm torn. A good example would be the fact that Charles Dodgson stuttered, but LewiS Carroll, as,a storyteller did not!
I've a friend who stutters some, but when she sings, it doesn't happen. Another, who stutters, but not when he holds his ears.
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How Doth the Little Crocodile is parody of moralistic poems. A moralistic poem is supposed to teach morals and good qualities. It's a parody of the poem Against Idleness and Mischief, by Isaac Watts (that's the poem that Alice was originally reciting, beginning "how doth the little busy bee"). The difference is that the bee poem was teaching the morals of good, hard work... While the crocodile poem is parodying it by 'teaching' that deception, trickery, and predation are desired qualities.
To me it's another way of saying, Looks are deceiving. The crocodile in this poem is smiling to the fish, as if it had good intentions, when in reality, he really wanted to eat them up.
After reading this I thought of the poem The Spider to the Fly, how the spider lured the fly into his parlour, so of course I went to Google and found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spider_and_the_Fly_(poem)
The Spider and the Fly
“Will you walk into my parlour?” said the Spider to the Fly,
'Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
And I've a many curious things to shew when you are there.”
“Oh no, no,” said the little Fly, “to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair
-can ne'er come down again.”
~By Mary Howitt, 1829
The story tells of a cunning Spider who ensnares a naive Fly through the use of seduction and flattery. The poem is a cautionary tale against those who use flattery and charm to disguise their true evil intentions. When Lewis Carroll was readying Alice's Adventures Under Ground for publication he replaced a parody he had made of a negro minstrel song[1] with a parody of Howitt's poem. The "Lobster Quadrille", in Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, is a parody of Howitt's poem; it mimics the meter and rhyme scheme, and parodies the first line, but not the subject matter, of the original.[2]
Hmmmm......why after reading this did I feel it's how Carroll got the girls to always want to be with him and listen to his stories. The girls are naive like the fly, while Carroll is like the spider, enticing them with more curious stories. Sure gives me something to ponder. These poems are like opening Pandora's box.
Ciao for now~
P.S. I think Alice and the girls addressed him as Mr. Dodgson. When we speak of his story he is Lewis Carroll, but when we speak of his childhood and life, he is Charles Dodgson aka Dodo
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Can someone take me aside and explain why Alice is trying to remember these verses at this time??
This happens when Alice has grown tall, and is trying to figure out if she is still the same person. She tries to see if she still knows the same things. First multiplication tables, which come out nonsense. Then geography--"London is the capital of Paris, and Paris is the capital of Rome...". Then she tries to remember Watts' poem, and this is what comes out.
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Pat, yes, I think (to respond to Joan's good question), it's likely that the original was a poem that most children were taught to memorize and the Liddell girls would have recognized the contrast.
I found an article about morality and Alice in Wonderland that I think is a reasonable explanation. It's at http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_moral_lesson_in_Alice%27s_Adventures_in_Wonderland
"And while the Duchess is busy moralising [which happens later in the book], Alice speaks out for her right to actually think.
Thus it is arguable that Alice's Adventures in Wonderland has no 'moral', and that the entire book was intended as the antithesis of children's literature which does."
This site says that "During the Victorian era, recitals and related readings were very popular and audiences would gather in both home parlours and larger venues to hear poetry read aloud. Much emphasis was placed on learning the fine art of elocution." http://www.thememoryinstitute.com/remembering-and-reciting-poetry.html
I'm sure the practice was started with young children too, who had to memorize poems and that was just part of their accomplishments, like learning the distance to the center of the earth.
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Joan and Bellamarie, I think that using Carroll in talking about his writing and Dodgson for his personal life is probably a good idea. I admit to being a bit lazy in just using Carroll for all (I also keep forgetting how Dodgson is spelled) :)
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We can continue to refer to previous chapters as we move on this week to the next chapters.
In Chapter 3, what creatures do we meet?
When Alice, the birds and other animals get to the bank soaking wet, how does the mouse attempt to "dry them?"
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PatH, Radioman has been asking after you.
From the ballet, the Queen of Hearts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5ZuM82ukQE
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That's an amusing ballet--thanks, Frybabe. I'll stick my nose in and reassure Don.
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Thanks everyone for the parody explanation. Not to belabor the point, I'm still a bit puzzled as to how the little crocodile slithered into Alice's mixed-up state to get confused with the busy bee - but that probably isn't part of the story. Maybe it was the memory of a saltwater crocodile...possibly swimming around in Alice's own tears. The pool of tears, complete with what looked like those Victorian bathing machines on the shore - so popular at this time. Recently I remember them from when we read Tracey Chevalier's Remarkable Creatures - do you remember that?
The mouse DOES seem to understand French, doesn't he? How frightened he became when Alice asked "ou est ma chatte" It's a wonder he swam back to her when she apologized. As soon as I saw the capital letters on the Duck, the Dodo, the Lory and the Eaglet, I assumed they represented some of the characters in the story. I've an annotation which tells they represented those of the boating party-
Dodo= Dodgson
Duck= Rev. Dockworth
Lory=Lorina, the oldest Liddell girl
Eaglet= Edith, the youngest girl
But who was the Mouse? (Is the mouse described as a male or a female, a "he" or a "she"? Will back and check check on that.) One note suggests that Aunt Lucy Lutwidge, ("a person of some authority") went with them on one such boating outing. Another note suggests Mouse might be the children's governess, Miss Prickette. The Mouse seems to be a familiar part of the party now...ready to dry off in the "Caucus-race"...
Not sure about the talk of William the Conquerer...we seem to be getting a little of everything here!
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In my post #1089 I had listed the annotation of who the animals were to represent, but JoanP., interesting how the mouse could have been the governess. He sure is afraid of much, to be a governess. My annotations said this about the aunt:
Carroll took his sisters, Fanny and Elizabeth, and his Aunt Lucy Lutwidge (the "other curious creatures") on a boating expedition, along with the Reverend Duckworth and the three Liddell girls.
Okay off to read the next chapters. I am a bit behind, with Easter and vacation in the same week. All is finally back to normal, with the crying 5 month old included.
Ciao for now~
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Frybabe: interesting link about the ballet of 'Alice In Wonderland'...didn't it say to be on stage about 2015!
Jonathan: a little 'aside' about people's writing habits....in my post 18 I wrote about reading 'An Uncommon Woman' about Queen Victoria & her eldest child Princess Vicki...they wrote each other all their lives and it was interesting in their writings they would underline words ....in reading Jenny Woolf's book about Lewis Carroll his mother's writing letter suggest she did the same i.e. letter to her sister
...Loui I have only got the Llama Wool High Dress she had last Winter & for Carry & Mary I have got nothing for the morning-the few High Dresses they had last Winter are quite done-their Pelisses must also pass down to the younger ones (the two smallest being wanted to make one for darling Edwin...Can I get wrong in choosing the above for them in Darlington? they would be less expensive there I should think....
their English is different as well....I wonder how this habit of underlining was established....coincidence that the two books I should read virtually back to back should have this same feature in each; people from the same era!!!
I always love books where the animals are humanized and relate to people with speech etc....interesting that Alice can speak such a variety of thoughts and sounds quite grown up at times yet makes the same mistake 2+ times in relating about her cat to animals who would have a normal fear of that species...
Deb
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I can well believe the mouse is the governess. When they need to dry off, the mouse recites the driest thing it knows, and it's a passage from a history book.
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Frybabe: interesting link about the ballet of 'Alice In Wonderland'...didn't it say to be on stage about 2015!
It's possible, Bookad. I didn't pay attention. It does look like it had a run last year with several ballet troupes. The Royal Ballet in London commissioned Christopher Wheeldon and Nicholas Wright to write the ballet and it first opened there in 2011. It just did the ballet again in Jan.
Doing a little research, it looks like in May of 2015 The Washington Ballet will do a presentation
http://www.washingtonballet.org/season-performances/alice-in-wonderland-1
Vermont School of Ballet, May of this year
http://www.theballetschoolonline.com/performance/performance_schedule.html
Kansas City Ballet is including it in the 2014-2015 season, but I don't see a date for it listed.
I wouldn't mind seeing it myself. Looks like fun. I see I just missed a performance in Frederick, MD
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Joan, I did recall the bathing machines from Remarkable Creatures. I was "proud" of myself that I knew about them :-)
That ballet looks like a lot of fun. I was surprised at the humor in it.
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This morning I was reading another book - Nancy Horan's Under the Starry Sky and found another reference to those bathing machines, Marcie! And another reference to Alice in Wonderland in a news article in Sunday's paper!
PatH - that is SO funny - the Mouse telling the "driest thing" it knew - to dry off the soaked party - the story of William the Conquerer and the Archbishop of Canterbury! :D Here, I was, trying to figure out the meaning of the story - missing the word "driest" altogether. It's a good thing you are all here to keep me from being so literal.
By the way, I read back and see no references whatever to the Mouse's gender. References to "its tale" and "Alice's eyes fixed on it." I agree, the Mouse is probably the governess.
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Literal doesn't get one very far with Carroll, except in weird, inverted ways.
I also looked hard for the mouse's gender.
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So how do they get dried off? The Caucus-race - as explained by the DODO. (I've a note which explains that the "caucus-race" might symbolize Committee members in English government who do lot of running around in circles, getting nowhere.)
Silly, wasn't it? They all ran around in circles until the Dodo yelled the race was over. I guess they all won - they were all dry, anyway. Dodo announces they all won prizes, and then he points to Alice who will hand them out.
Enough currants in her pocket for all - but not enough for Alice. She must hand her own thimble to the Dodo, who then hands it back to her as her prize. There is political symbolism involved here too. I don't think little children will get this - (I didn't either, did you?)
I must say, I did enjoy Tenniel's drawing of the Dodo - with little human hands - how else could he hand Alice the thimble?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Alice_par_John_Tenniel_09.png/525px-Alice_par_John_Tenniel_09.png)
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Apparently the "dry" history lesson is one that the girls would have been familiar with. Lewis Carroll was quite subversive of their schooling, in a very witty way.
Yes, JoanP, when the dry lessons fails to actually dry the group, the Dodo suggests they run a "caucus" race. He's satirizing politics too. Even today many people think that politicians don't accomplish much for all of their running around.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15
Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/aliceinwonderland/aliceinwonderland.jpg) |
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll.
We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.
|
Discussion Schedule:
April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2
April 21-27 Chapters 3 - 6
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Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.
April 21-27 Chapters 3 - 6
Chapter 3: A Caucus-Race and a Long Tale
1. What new creatures do we meet here?
2. When Alice, the birds and other animals get to the bank soaking wet, how does the mouse attempt to "dry them?"
3 When that fails, what does the Dodo suggest they do to dry themselves?
4. What is Carroll saying by using the term "caucus" to describe the race?
5. The mouse's tale is an example of "figured verse"--a poem whose shape on the page is an object relevant to the poem. Do you know any other examples?
6. Why do all the animals leave Alice at the end of the chapter?
Chapter 4: The Rabbit Sends in a Little Bill
1. What have you learned about some of the unfamiliar expressions used in this chapter?
2. What are Alice's thoughts when she grows big?
3. Who/what is Bill and what happens between him and Alice?
4. How does Alice shrink again?
5. What animal does Alice meet that doesn't talk to her?
6. What is the last creature that Alice meets in this chapter?
Chapter 5: Advice from a Caterpillar
1. How would you describe the caterpillar's attitude?
2. What do you think of the parody of Robert Southey's poem that begins, "You are old Father William..."?
3. Which illustrations of Carroll's version of the poem do you find especially funny or interesting?
4. How did the caterpillar tell Alice she could change her size?
5. What do you think of the exchange between Alice and the pigeon?
6. Any other thoughts on this chapter?
Chapter 6: Pig and Pepper
1. What do you think of the interchange between the two footmen? Between the frog-footman and Alice?
2. Who does Alice see in the kitchen?
3. How would you describe the Duchess? The cook?
4. What have you learned about the origin if the Cheshire Cat?
5. Have you found the original of the "Speak roughly" song on which the parody is based?
6. What happens to the baby boy?
7. What are your thoughts about Alice's conversation with the Cheshire Cat?
You can read the novel online (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)
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That drawing is fun. I guess Tenniel could have had the Dodo use his beak to maneuver the thimble but the little hands make him more animated.
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I knew I had seen at least one other example of figured verse, but the only way I could find it was by riffling through my poetry book looking for patterns.
A Christmas Tree
Star,
If you are
A love compassionate,
You will walk with us this year.
We face a glacial distance, who are here
Huddled
At your feet.
William Burford (1927-)
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Thanks, Pat. That's a good example.
I think that e.e. cummings used a variation of figured verse (or patterned poetry) in some of his poems:
See his and some others at http://www.webexhibits.org/poetry/explore_21_visual_examples.html and http://www.webexhibits.org/poetry/explore_21_visual_make.html
There are some good examples here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=figure+poem+examples&client=firefox-a&hs=U81&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=zblWU_7DMc-lyATf74KgCg&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1457&bih=977#facrc=_&imgrc=ZsvNPOtFNXR0xM%253A%3BT48aK0dmgxWQ1M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcnx.org%252Fcontent%252Fm23228%252Flatest%252FPicture%2525204.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcnx.org%252Fcontent%252Fm23228%252Flatest%252F%3B1820%3B1118
When I clicked on the first one, with the waving hair, I got some good ones to the right of it.
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http://www.bachlund.org/Alice_Foreword.htm
read his letter
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http://ufdc.ufl.edu/design/aggregations/alice/html/info/CarrollAlice.jpg
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We'll son of a gun...I am cracking up at myself after reading all your posts. When I was reading the part about the mouse reading the driest thing it knows, I thought to myself..."how terribly boring, and what on earth does it have to do with drying off?"
Then I read PatH .'s post about not taking things literally, and realized....Duh...the History lesson was meant to be "dry".
Alice sure knows how to clear a room by just mentioning her cat Dinah. All those poor animals high tailed it out of there pretty fast.
Marcie, great find, in the satirical political reference with the caucus race. Politicians do seem to run theirselves in circles and not accomplish much at all. I enjoyed the humor in these chapters.
JoanP., Yes, I remember the bath houses In "Creatures". I think Barb actually posted a pic of them.
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My first reaction to the "figured verse" - as in Carroll's mouse tale - (his long sad tail) - fun, but a little "precious" - for lack of a better word. Time spent working a poem into a mouse tale - that might have been spent otherwise. Like word games.
I do remember as you point out, Marcie - that ee cummings was intrigued by this poetry form. ...and suddenly remembered a long ago French lit. class - studying Apolinnaire's work... He called them "calligrammes" Here is the one on Rain. (Il pleut)
(http://wordsandeggs.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/apollinaire-dessin-ilpleut.jpg?w=500)
I remember another - a woman's head - wearing a hat (Un Chapeau) Let me try to find it.
(http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Calligramme.jpg/220px-Calligramme.jpg)
Apollinaire first published his Calligrames at the turn of the century...around the time of WWI. I just read that this form of expression goes way back - to Ancient Greece.
Maybe I'm gaining more respect for the art form.
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Forgive my mistakes in my last post. I was very tired, using my ipad tablet and didn't take the time to even spell check. Ughhh...I hate when I look back and see the misspelled words or bad grammar.
These links of poetry taking on form, are truly interesting to see.
Dodgson interested in turning Alice into an opera, well now that would have been great to see and hear, yet it seems it was more of a task than Carroll anticipated, and not wanting to give up control or top acknowledgement, it came to a halt. I can see how writers relinquish their rights to producers, and the producers take such liberties, they change the entire originality of the stories when making the story into a movie, so I can understand why Dodgson would want to do this himself, but find it more than anticipated.
"He got a favorable reply a week later from Mackenzie, then living in Florence, and began work on the libretto. By April of the following year he wrote to Mackenzie encouraging him to abandon the idea, as "dramatic construction being too clearly beyond powers."
Some things you have to leave to the professionals, and while Dodgson was a brilliant writer, he realized turning his story into a liberato was beyond his own talents.
I
feel
the
more
we
read,
the
more
we
search,
and
the
more
we search,
the
more
we
find.
The
more
we
find,
it
boggles
the mind.
Spinning
and
spinning
around
and
down
that
spiral
tunnel
Alice
found.
Gripping,
and
grabbing
onto
more
and
more
interesting
and
exciting
facts
of
this
fascinating
tale
to
explore.
Hmmm......I suppose this is a feeble attempt at creating a form of poetry. But is was fun!
Ciao for now~
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That happens with the ipad, Bella - I hate it too when it fills in words that you didn't intend...PatH found a way to turn off that feature - but I decided to leave it on because I like it to correct my spelling...
So everyone left Alice again - simply because she mentioned Dinah - her cat, who eats mice - and also birds? (Dodo, Duck, Lory, Eaglet) Alice has to learn to consider the effect of her words on her companions. Maybe Dodgson is trying to teach her something here! :D
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What I turned off was the autofill, which guesses words. It will still underline what it thinks are spelling mistakes--important for me because I make a lot of typos.
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Thanks for the Apollinaire, JoanP. He certainly makes you work to read the poem,
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bluebird, what an interesting letter that Dodgson wrote to try to have an operetta created using his works. It's too bad that he didn't find someone he trusted, other than himself, with the libretto. Though it it is possible he used that as an excuse because he didn't like the collaboration with the music composer.
Joan, Apollinaire is a fun example though his handwriting makes, as Pat says, you work (hard) to read it!
Bella, very nice going down the rabbit hole!
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As you indicate, Joan, Alice drives all of the birds and other animals away with her talk about Dinah.
Did anyone notice unfamiliar expressions in Chapter 4: The Rabbit Sends in a Little Bill? Did you learn their meaning?
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wondering about Alice with her quick wit and intelligence; she somehow doesn't seem to get it that all about her are creatures that in normal circumstance and it seems in this circumstance as well fear her cat....but she keeps bringing up the subject, ...a bit of homesickness perhaps
love the poem links kinda inspires me....among a link of images in google there were images of many poems in unusual and different formats
interesting to see Lewis Carrol putting in all his variety of ways of seeing a subject and changing the meaning of the word to show direction change in the story i.e. everyone wet from the tear flowing; so drying off by listening to a boring history item, or running a race with no finish line.....
have some information about his birth family life will enter with my next post....main reason won't enter it here is I get carried away with a number of items then find somehow have deleted everything and have to start over....really annoying
Deb
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Deb, I'm so sorry that you lost your post. Frustrating! If it's a long one, you might want to write it in a word processor and save it before you copy and paste it here. I look forward to the information you found.
Yes, Alice seems to be in a "dream" where we don't use our common sense!
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Just finished reading the chapters for this week, and I have three words I keep thinking throughout..... Nonsensical, endless, and creepy! I am a person who dreams almost every night. I rarely if ever have dreams that scare me, and I have never dreamt of my three children, that I can remember. I suppose Freud would have something to say about this. Now, if this is Alice's dream, made up by Lewis Carroll, then I see he not only has a fascination with little girls, but he has a fascination with animals, to the point of creating them in the likeness of the three Liddell girls and others in his life. This story has been creepy for me from the beginning, after reading about Carroll's fascination with little girls and having something against boys, but what really creeped me out was the lullaby:
"With that she began nursing her child again, singing a sort of lullaby to it as she did so, and giving it a violent shake at the end of every line:____
"Speak roughly to your little boy,
And beat him when he sneezes:
He only does it to annoy,
Because he knows it teases."
CHORUS
(in which the cook and the baby joined):__
"wow! wow! wow!"
While the Duchess sang the second verse of the song, she kept tossing the baby violently up and down, and the poor little thing howled so, that Alice could hardly hear the words:__
"I speak severely to my boy,
I beat him when he sneezes;
For he can thoroughly enjoy
The pepper when he pleases!"
CHORUS
"Wow! wow! wow!
This upsets Alice so much so she thinks, "If I don't take this child away with me," thought Alice, "they're sure to kill it in a day or two. Wouldn't it be murder to leave it behind?"
Then in the annotation it says, 5. It was surely not without malice that Carroll turned the male baby into a pig, for he had a low opinion of little boys. In Sylvie and Bruno Concluded an unpleasant child named Uggug ("a hideous fat boy. . . with the expression of a prize-pig") finally turns into a porcupine. Carroll now and then made an effort to be friendly with a little boy, but usually only when the lad had sisters that Carroll wanted to meet. In one of his concealed-rhyme letters (a letter that seems to be prose but on closer inspection turns out to be verse) he closed a P.S. with these lines:
My best love to yourself___to your Mother
My kindest regards__to your small,
Fat, impertinent, ignorant brother
My hatred__I think that is all.
It is so very difficult to understand how Carroll could get away with this type of behavior and hatred in his life, yet parents would allow their little girls near him. As a parent, teacher, daycare provider, who has gone to workshops on child abuse/predators, and knowing children that were preyed upon by men like Carroll who gained their trust by using things that were of interest to them, such as video games, music, visiting the park etc., this guy is someone I would have reported to the authorities, because it is my duty in my position, I am legally required to report suspicious behavior. Carroll's is not only suspicious, but he is so open for his fascination with little girls, he admits he would befriend a little boy only to be with his sister. And the nude photography of the little girls is just even more upsetting, along with his hatred for boys. Ewwww.....no wonder this story is so weird for me. Even without the annotations to confirm his actions, I would still find these parts in the story creepy. It makes me wonder how many men were allowed to get away with this behavior and parents did not suspect why he spent so much time with little girls. His fascination/love for little Alice is really upsetting to me as I read more of this story, because he places Alice in such frightening situations in the story. Makes me wonder how little Alice felt when he read it to her. I know Alice married and had children and I believe she named one Caryl. I don't mean to get off of the chapters, but this particular chapter really weirded me out. So much more could be said....but I will stop now.
Ciao for now~
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My Alice book goes back to the library today. If I don't renew it, I'll have to make do with a download without annotations.
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Deb - don't you wonder where those missing posts have gone? I spend more time hunting for them than it would take to rewrite. I too am looking forward to the information you have found.
Fry...if you don't renew it, just ask here and those of us with notations will answer your questions, I am sure. Over the many years since the story first appeared, there have been many interpretations of Carroll's work...and input is available from Alice's family as well.
Bella, I understand that you are approaching the story with a critical eye towards Carroll's "creepy" side and keep that in mind as I read. I haven't yet begun Chapters 5 and Chapter 6, and so will put your post aside until I have read them so as not to be influenced by your comments before I have. It will be interesting to read the annotations too.
I'll just say here, that if the author and the tale is so very "noir, "I don't think it would still be around, still be studied, quoted, and adapted to movies, the stage, etc.
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I've been trying to sort out these characters, trying to decide which are minor, which will appear again in the story. Also, which are friendly to Alice, not friendly, or just plain indifferent.
The White Rabbit seems to be playing a prominent role and we'll see him again. When he addressed her as a servant girl, Alice thinks of how surprised he'll be "when he finds out who she is." (Who is she? Who is he?)
Are the White Rabbit, Bill the little lizard friends or not? When Alice thought they were throwing pebbles at her, she misunderstood, later to learn they were throwing little cakes at her - cakes that would make her small enough to get out of the house again....
I've no idea about the "dear little puppy" - with no name. Alice seems to like him - he's friendly. Don't know why he doesn't talk to her. Maybe Carroll is saving him for future chapters?
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What is the last creature that Alice meets in this chapter?
I'm finding the last creature in Chapter 4 quite exotic ... the blue Caterpillar up on the mushroom, smoking a hookah pipe, ignoring everyone around him - including tiny Alice's presence. My first thought was - what's in the pipe? Is he high? Isn't he odd to be included in a Children's Hour story tale?
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When I first came the to blue caterpillar smoking a hookah, sitting upon a mushroom, my first thoughts were, whoa, drug induced caterpillar...considering there is a drug named, "mushroom." After much research at numerous sites, there is no definitive answer as to what the caterpillar was smoking in the hookah. What I also found interesting, is how through the years this story has been questioned to be a story with hidden meanings about drugs, from the Rabbit hole, to the white rabbit, blue smoking caterpillar etc. Jefferson Airplane wrote a song referring to this story and drugs. As far out as it is, and knowing Carroll had a history of a disorder, it is possible he took medicine that could alter his thinking resulting in such a nonsensical, strange story as Alice. I know many great accomplished, geniuses who were bi polar or had other mental disorders who have been published and renowned as some of the most creative people throughout history.
JoanP., "I'll just say here, that if the author and the tale is so very "noir, "I don't think it would still be around, still be studied, quoted, and adapted to movies, the stage, etc."
With all due respect JoanP., I would have to say this would make this story even more enticing, and popular. There are many stories, movies, musicals, plays, operas, etc. that stand the test of time, in spite of them being dark, or "noir." I watch Disney movies today with my grandchildren, that scare me, and realize how throughout the years these are considered classics. Maybe just possibly, the children of these recent generations are more aware and intelligent to see and question stories and movies, where as a child of Carroll's era, and even of the 50's, we were just excited to have a television or book for entertainment.
This story is strange and seems to be getting even stranger. I see it hallucinogenics, in the way Alice keeps drinking and eating things that alter her state of appearance, size and thinking, and animals turn into humans. It makes me wonder how I would have received this story as a child watching the movie, not knowing the book version. I know my three year old grand daughter finds it scary, yet continues to want to watch the children's movie version every time she comes over. As a matter of fact, it is playing as we speak. I think it may be time for me to finally sit and watch the movie for myself, since the book is so out there, I don't think seeing the movie before finishing the book could alter my opinion much. As for viewing the book from knowing Carroll's "creepy" side, I want to say I am trying my very best to be as open as possible. Events in the story just keep getting so strange, that it pulls me back to question the meaning and motives of Carroll. While researching, I can see many students and scholars share my curiosity and questioned the same as I am now. I am sorry if my posts seem to try to influence anyone, or may annoy anyone, it is not my intent. In the discussion, I am only trying to voice what I am feeling as we read. Many books we have discussed the author before reading the book, and it always seemed to make us wonder about things knowing certain personalities and personal experiences in the author's lifetime. It is not a judgement, or insult to the author or the story......it is just an opinion, and a curious questioning mind. I feel you can't discuss the story as it unfolds with such strange things, without discussing what the author means by it. Not that we will ever know anything definitive, even having the annotated, definitive edition in our hands.
Here are a few links that can give us different ideas as to what the blue caterpillar was smoking in his hookah. I am sure there are tons more. I just love that we have access to researching our wonders and questions!
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/20575/what-was-the-hookah-smoking-caterpillar-smoking
http://www.ask.com/web?q=Alice+in+Wonderland+Drug+Theory&qsrc=466&gc=1&o=102140&l=dir&qo=relatedSearchNarrow
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19254839
Ciao for now~
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Since I brought up the question about what was in that hookah pipe, I felt compelled to do a little research of my own...
Modern readers of Lewis Carroll's books (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass) will undoubtedly make some connections between radical changes in perspective following the ingestion of "special" foods and drinks and recreational drug use. These connections may be partially due to the use of imagery from the books by the "drug-culture" of the 1960s and 1970s but also due to a relative familiarity with recreational drug use in modern culture.
Would the original readers of the book (circa 1865) made similar connections? (I think this is the question we should be asking here.)
I am not asking if Lewis Carroll intended the books to be about drugs but whether a Victorian era reader would have considered this to be a valid interpretation.
It seems unlikely that Victorian Era readers of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass would have thought of drugs when reading about the special foods and drinks.
This conclusion is based upon the fact that the First and Second Opium Wars started in 1839 and 1858. So you could argue that recreational drug use was not really on the radar of the average Victorian citizen until that point in time. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass were written in 1865 and 1871, so it is possible that people may have put two and two together.
"The most direct reference to recreational drug use did not come about in Victorian England until the Sherlock Holmes stories and The Portrait of Dorian Grey which were both around the 1890s. So it seems that recreational drug use was not really sufficiently popularized until that point which would mean that people wouldn't likely make the connection your question asks."
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Another -
First of all, while you specifically pointed out that you were not asking if Lewis Carroll intended the books to be about drugs, it is nonetheless important to note that he truly did not intend that. Lewis Carroll was the pen name of Charles Dodgson, a rector and dean in the Church of England. Dodgson enjoyed making up stories for young children, and it was one of those stories that eventually evolved into the classic tales we all know. Given his occupation, I'd say it is highly unlikely that he had any experience with and perhaps little or no knowledge of the effects of opium or other drugs. Because of this, I would assume that there was nothing associated with drugs that ultimately influenced his story.
Having said all that, I would further suggest that it was highly unlikely that any Victorian era readers would have made any similar connections either. One reason I believe this is that the books from the very beginning were intended as children's stories. As a result, I believe people of that era would have been much more inclined to accept the book as a tale of fancy without attempting to look for any hidden meaning or connections. I am not familiar with anyone having documented any such correlations until the US drug culture of the 1960s, which would further suggest that readers from previous eras did not make these same connections.
Off to read Chapter V - though still wondering what Lewis Carroll intended with the Caterpillar and his hookah pipe ;)
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JoanP., I found those same responses in my search and in the links provided....that is why I think we can never conclude definitively, as to what Carroll was or was not intending with the blue caterpillar smoking the hookah and what was in it.
The 60's were known for their openness to drug use, but we know it was certainly something that came way before then. Leading up to, during and after the Vietnam war, drug use became so prevalent as to means to cope with having to deal with such a time in history. Prior wars, it was alcohol to get them through. Today it seems heroine is the choice of coping, and has become a huge cause of suicide even in our small little town I grew up in. I did read somewhere and will find it when I have some down time, where it was mentioned Carroll did have a condition, which required him to take meds, that could have altered his thinking, and thought process while writing Alice and other books. I know when those with mental conditions fail to take their meds, their condition heightens and their auditory hallucinations and paranoia becomes a reality to them. Knowing Carroll suffered some sort of experience as a boy, to make him hate little boys to the point of his very dark and violent lullaby, it would not surprise me this trauma could have manifested a predisposed genetic condition.
Anyways......let's proceed to see where Alice ends up next, since this will never be solved. I'm sure we will find many more things to throw us into wonderment in "Wonderland."
Ciao for now~
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One more link I found with reference to the caterpillar smoking the hookah....
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/carroll/aiwl5.htmlOpium as a Possible Influence upon the Alice Books
Kate Connell '97 (English 61, Brown University, 1993)
[Victorian Web Home —> Authors —> Lewis Carroll —> Works —> Genre and Style —> Literary Relations—> Theme and Subject]
"The widespread use of opium during the Victorian period may have influenced or been reflected in Alice's Adventures In Wonderland. Mind altering experiences resulting from narcotics relate nicely to some of the detailed descriptions in the Alice books, such as the growing and shrinking and the image of the caterpillar smoking the hookah.
The complex dream atmosphere which Alice lives through can easily be compared to a mind-altering drug experience. The idea of eating a mushroom or drinking from a bottle that causes one to feel altered in some way parallels drug experience as well. In Carroll's time five out of six families used opium habitually (Wohl 34-35) Infant mortality was an extremely common result of use of the narcotic. It was said that infants "shrank up into little old men" when they became sick (Wohl 34-35). This image is strangely similiar to that of the duchess's baby turning into a pig.
The baby grunted again, and Alice looked very anxiously into it's face to see what was the matter with it. There could be no doubt that it had a very turn-up nose, much more like a snout than a real nose; also its eyes were getting extremely small for a baby. altogether Alice did not like the look of the thing at all. 'But perhaps it was only sobbing,' she thought, and looked into its eyes again, to see if there were any tears.
No, there were no tears. 'If you're going to turn into a pig, my dear,' said Alice, seriously, 'I'll have nothing more to do with you. Mind now!' The poor little thing sobbed again (or grunted it was impossible to say which), and they went on for some while in silence.
Regardless of whether or not the books are written as a result of opium use, it seems very likely that they refer to various aspects of its use. Perhaps Carroll, who loved children, argued its harmfulness to children. Or maybe it was included simply as a sign of the times — a reflection of the age."
end of article___
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Bellamarie, I agree with you that the drug qustion isn't really solvable, and also with your conclusion:
Anyways......let's proceed to see where Alice ends up next, since this will never be solved. I'm sure we will find many more things to throw us into wonderment in "Wonderland."
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Now that we've met the caterpillar and move to the next chapter (5) we've got more humor in store.
How would you describe the caterpillar's attitude?
What do you think of the parody of Robert Southey's poem that begins, "You are old Father William..."?
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I enjoyed the exchange between Alice and the Caterpillar - and his persistant question - "Who are you?" Here, Alice confesses that she's not really sure anymore.
I'm reminded of her response to the White Rabbit in preceding chapter, when he addressed her as a servant girl, (Marianne) - Alice thought of how surprised he'll be "when he finds out who she is." She seemeed to know then, but not anymore.
Do you think Carroll had anyone in mind in his caterpillar portrayal? Clearly he's a male - older (he's smoking!) and seems to have little disregard for Alice. She was plucky enough to follow up his question by asking him who he wa, though he asked why should he tell her who he was. Just when he seemed to dismiss her altogether, he stops and warns her to keep her temper...and shows interest in hearing about how she's changed. He's an older male, but not one who has authority over her.
What do you think of the parody of Robert Southey's poem that begins, "You are old Father William..."?
I read the annotations on the original those Father William lines, my first question was - could any child understand them - let alone enjoy them?
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I looked up something on Robert Southey's original poem - and that I understood perfectly.
"You are old, father William, "the young man cried,
And pleasures with youth pass away.
And yet you lament not the days that are gone,
Now tell me the reason I pray."
To a child, Father William's response might have made as little sense as the verses that Alice recites here.
And I stumbled over this...didn't save the source, but it does provide a viewpoint -
"Lewis Carol had a crush on Alice's older sister (who was his own age). Back then, people were not allowed to date without an escort. So, the family used to send little Alice out with the happy couple when they took their walks through the English countryside. Carroll would tell imaginative stories to Alice, and most of the material for those stories was based on the subject of a liberal British elementary-schools education, such as logic, mathematics, nursery rhymes, etc. So most of the material behind the Alice in Wonderland stories is drawn from common cultural and educational references of Victorian England, as well as figures of speech interpreted literally (like the Mad Hatter), games (like chess and croquet), family crests, poems, songs, logic problems, etc. The Cheshire Cat was actually based on a base-relief carved into the wall of a church in Cheshire, England.
The stories were well received at the time, because everyone "got" the references. Now the book is regarded as a classic, mostly because of how well-liked it was when it was published. Unfortunately, modern readers don't get many of the cultural references, so they look for arcane meanings. Believe it or not, the book really was for kids."
The Caterpillar knows enough to tell Alice her verses are not right from beginning to end...and seems to conclude that for Alice to understand that, she must be larger - she must grow up?
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Those are helpful insights, Joan, especially that "most of the material behind the Alice in Wonderland stories is drawn from common cultural and educational references of Victorian England, as well as figures of speech interpreted literally." I've read that alot of Victorian education for children was aimed at "character" education to raise the child from the "sinful state" of nature to a more godly plane of existence. I think that many children would have been somewhat shocked and thrilled with Carroll's parodies, changing the solemn moralizing tone of the originals to an outright funny spectacle.
I found a description of a book on "Lewis Carroll and the Victorian Stage" that shows the influence of Victorian theater on his life. It's "the first book to focus on Carroll's irresistible fascination with all things theatrical, from childhood charades and marionettes to active involvement in the dramatisation of Alice, influential contributions to the debate on child actors, and the friendship of leading players, especially Ellen Terry. As well as being a key to his complex and enigmatic personality, Carroll's interest in the theatre provides a vivid account of a remarkable era on the stage that encompassed Charles Kean's Shakespeare revivals, the comic genius of Frederick Robson, the heyday of pantomime, Gilbert and Sullivan, opera bouffe, the Terry sisters, Henry Irving, and favourite playwrights Tom Taylor, H. A. Jones, and J. M. Barrie. "
I recall some of the "farcical/slapstick" characters in Shakespeare and think that some of Carroll's creations are in the same genre.
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"Repeat "You are old, Father William,' "said the Caterpillar. Alice folded her hands, and began:__
My annotation says: Selwyn Goodacre (in Jabberwocky, Spring 1982) has an interesting comment on Alice's folded hands here, and her crossed hands is Chapter 2 ("as is she were saying lessons") when she repeated "How doth the little corocodile..."
I discussed these passages with a retired primary school headmaster...and he confirmed to me that that is exactly how children were taught__i.e., they had to repeat their lessons (note that word is not "recite"__ that refers to house parties and home entertainment), this means, learning by rote; she would have been expected to know the lessons by heart__ and to cross her hands if sitting, to fold them if standing, both systems intended to concentrate the mind and prevent fidgeting.
After reading this, I asked myself, "could the Caterpillar be a school headmaster?"
As far as the poem " You are old Father William", my take on it was the youth was asking Old Father William at his age how and why was he so happy and carefree. Father William responds with letting the youth know you can be youthful at any age, and not to take life so seriously. I especially liked the ending verse, I see father William attributes his life to God:
"I am cheerful, young man, "father William replied,
"Let the cause thy attention engage;
In the days of my youth, I remember'd my God!
And He hath not forgotten my age."
I found a few links that touch on what the poem meant that gives other views.
http://www.ask.com/question/poem-you-are-old-father-william
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_Lewis_Carroll_write_the_poem_Father_William?#slide=20
"The meaning of the poem, 'You Are Old Father William is simply that the father feels that age is only a number to him now that he is older. The son questions why he does things, because he is young yet and doesn't understand life as his father does."
Another view:
“In my youth, “Father William replied to his son, “I feared it might injure the brain; But now that I’m perfectly sure I have none, Why, I do it again and again.
“In Southey's poem the young man admires his elder, and seeks an explanation as to how William has been so successful, presumably with a view to following the same path himself.
Whereas the youth in Carroll's rhyme appears to be admonishing William for his foolishness.
Southey's poem continues, in a very earnest tone with the ways in which William has had the good sense to preserve his health (with an implicit suggestion that we, as readers would do well to do the same) but
Carroll's verse does no such thing. It is full of silliness and joie de vivre. 'We don't want moral lessons,'
Carroll's poem seems to say, 'we want head stands!'
In this way Carroll is rebelling against the stifling attitude that Victorians had towards children, and supplying them instead with fun and laughter."
I can see why Carroll would want to put this poem in Alice in Wonderland, assuming the "children" would even get it. He is telling them to have fun, and not take life so seriously, for your youth only lasts a short time, then you are old and grey, but even then you can be youthful and have fun!
Ciao for now~
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below are points of interest from the book I am reading alongside 'Alice In Wonderland"
The Mystery of Lewis Carroll by Jenny Woolf, forward by Edward Wakeling
*Author comes by some of her information as had the luck to be notified of a bank account of Lewis from years 1856-1900----it had been held from when the bank closed and the new owners took over….the entire account was there and no family members of Lewis's had been thru the accounts to change or delete any information,... from his bank account she was able to learn many new facts as prior reading she had done was from biographies etc., & they had been disappointing as many had different summaries as to who Lewis Carroll was…..many of these comprising a variety of dark history suggestions, which she did not condone….the author's interest initially had began at age 8 upon reading a copy Lewis's book about Alice…the book by Ms Woolf was published 2010, and the author's brief biog on back sleeve of the book says she is a journalist in England now raising a family
*Lewis Carroll was born in 1832, the third child of 11 and the first boy (all children survived which was not usual for that time)…his father was a reverend and mom was kept busy raising kids….both parents loved their family but the mom didn't pay much attention to each individual child; a factor which caused Lewis much grief thru the years, his father seemed to pay a lot of attention and supported all the children even to the extent of buying a modest home for his unmarried daughters (only 1 sister married and her son became a biographer of Lewis Carroll--his name Stuart Collingwood)….Lewis being the eldest son became responsible to his family following his father's death to aid them financially and with their problems….this was expected of him from his birth…the family of siblings were very close and remained so thruout the years
*Lewis was taught at home by his father till he was 12 then he went to boarding school…some of which was a very unpleasant experience due to conduct acceptable at that period of time among school children."
…..
"At Eaton, in 1825 just 19 years before Carroll went to Rugby, the 13-year-old brother of the humanitarian Lord Shaftesbury was beaten to death in a fist fight. The boy's father did not prosecute because the fight had been conducted according to standard fist fighting rules."
"One of Carroll's major objections to Rugby (one of the schools he attended in England) was the unkindness of the bullying, and his continuous protectiveness towards the helpless would be a marked characteristic for the rest of his life."
" Beating with a cane, both by masters and older boys, was commonplace, and Collingwood confirms that the general system of victimizing and tormenting younger boys would have been endemic in Carroll's day." {all the above from pg 23}
*Lewis was a older student of 12 years of age when he entered boarding school and therefore was not among the younger boys being victimized
*Lewis did not participate a lot as a reverend due to his speech impediment being self-conscious of his speech defect…..he was not the only one of his siblings with this problem….his interest in mathematics was also shared by at least one of his siblings a sister, Margaret
*Lewis spent the rest of his life living and working at Christ Church, Oxford now better know for being the school "Hogwarts" from the Harry Potter movie.
*Lewis had a favourite uncle, Robert W. Skeffington Lutwidge who introduced Lewis to photography and was a government inspector of asylums ….'mental disorders was one of Carroll's lifelong interests." pg 27….
* Lewis's family seems to have been very protective of information pertaining to their brother and when his diaries were published sections were not available for readers after the family had gone thru his writings as they chose to remove parts of his diary
………………………………..
The above are just bits I thought might be interesting with this discussion about Alice and the author….though after reading about previous biographers and their varying renditions of Lewis Carroll's life; it might be interesting to see how far apart their 'truths!' are, ….one theory about Lewis even suggested he might possibly have been Jack the Ripper along with another…each becoming the criminal on alternate trips to London!!!!!!!!
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Deb
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A further note on the caterpillar: The notes in my book say that at that time "Who are you?" was a fashionable catch phrase, so it would be funny to have the caterpillar use it.
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Deb, I had to crack up at this.....
The above are just bits I thought might be interesting with this discussion about Alice and the author….though after reading about previous biographers and their varying renditions of Lewis Carroll's life; it might be interesting to see how far apart their 'truths!' are, ….one theory about Lewis even suggested he might possibly have been Jack the Ripper along with another…each becoming the criminal on alternate trips to London!!!!!!!!
Of all the sites I have been to, I have to say I never came across the theory of Jack the Ripper!! :o :o :o
One thing we know for certain, is that Charles Dodgson/Lewis Carroll was an interesting person, that has everyone trying to understand his complicated, intelligent mind. I kind of think all the children who knew him was much like the youth in the poem, they admired his light heartedness, and fun stories. Kids keep it simple.
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie, thank you for that information about the Father William poem. I tend to agree with the view you quoted that says "In this way Carroll is rebelling against the stifling attitude that Victorians had towards children, and supplying them instead with fun and laughter."
Deb, those bits about Dodgson's life are interesting and helpful. In the Norton edition of ALICE that I have, it says that his father was strictly religious but that he sometimes wrote whimsical letters to his son. For example:
"No father, perhaps, ever sent his son a more direct invitation to devote himself to nonsense than did Canon Dodgson when he wrote to Charles at the age of eight:
. . I will not forget your commission. As soon as I get to Leeds I shall scream out in the middle of the street, Ironmongers—Ironmongers — Six hundred men will rush out of their shops in a moment — fly, fly, in all directions — ring the bells, call the constables — set the town on fire. I will have a file & a screw-driver, & a ring, & if they are not brought directly, in forty seconds I will leave nothing but one small cat alive in the whole town of Leeds, & I shall only leave that, because I am afraid I shall not have time to kill it.
Then what a bawling & a tearing of hair there will be I Pigs & babies, camels & butterflies, rolling in the gutter together — old women rushing up the chimneys & cows after them — ducks hiding themselves in coffee cups, & fat geese trying to squeeze themselves into pencil cases — at last the Mayor of Leeds will be found in a soup plate covered up with custard & stuck full of almonds to make him look like a sponge cake that he may escape the dreadful destruction of the Town."
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The Annotated Alice has Tenniel's illustrations of the Father William poem adapted by Carroll. Which illustrations of Carroll's version of the poem do you find especially funny or interesting?
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/You_Are_Old,_Father_William
If you click the image on the right you'll see an enlarged illustration.
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Marcie - thanks for sharing some background on Charles Dodgdon's father! I remember from reading the tidbits Deb posted above-
*Lewis was taught at home by his father till he was 12 then he went to boarding school
Very formative age, which does explain more the writer's taste for nonsense, I think.
Since you asked which of the Father William verses and illustration most enjoyable, you sent me back to consider them more closely.
I'll have to chose these lines...though it was close!
"You are old, Father William," the young man said,
"And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head—
Do you think, at your age, it is right?"
"In my youth," Father William replied to his son,
"I feared it might injure the brain;
But now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again."
And this drawing -
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Alice_par_John_Tenniel_16.png/200px-Alice_par_John_Tenniel_16.png)
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Deb - thank you for taking the time to repost the material you lost the day before.
I thought this item from your post was interesting -
"*Lewis had a favourite uncle, Robert W. Skeffington Lutwidge who introduced Lewis to photography and was a government inspector of asylums ….'mental disorders was one of Carroll's lifelong interests."
I also read in my Annotated that "Carroll was an enthusiastic charter member all his life of the Society for Psychical Research and his library contained dozens of books on the occult."
This note was included to explain these lines when Alice tried to decide which side of the caterpillar to eat to make her bigger:
"One side of what? The other side of what?" thought Alice to herself.
"Of the mushroom, said the Caterpillar, just as if she had asked it aloud."
Was it you who tagged the Caterpillar as a schoolmaster, Bella? He certainly had the patience, though he didn't concur, he did stop and consider what she was saying and gave her the information she told him she needed.
The note says that "Carroll did not believe in spiritualism, but did believe in the reality of ESP and pschokinesis...wrote a pamphlet on it...believed that Psychic phenomena are genuine."
I'll tell you what - I would love to believe in ESP as Carroll did. I think I need tutoring on effectively sending such messages. Will be looking for further examples of this in upcoming chapters.
ps PatH - "Who are you?" - a fashionable catch phrase" at the time - Loved it!
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JoanP, it seems to me that Tenniel illustrated that poem with more images than he provided in other chapters. Each of the verses has an illustration. Tenniel must have enjoyed the parody.
I found the illustration you picked very funny. I like this one too:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Alice_05c.jpg/200px-Alice_05c.jpg)
You are old," said the youth, "As I mentioned before,
And have grown most uncommonly fat;
Yet you turned a back-somersault in at the door—
Pray, what is the reason of that?"
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15
Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/aliceinwonderland/aliceinwonderland.jpg) |
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll.
We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2
April 21-27 Chapters 3 - 6
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Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.
April 28 - May 5 Chapter 7 - 9
Chapter 7:
1. Why would madness be characteristic of hatters?
2. What is a dormouse?
3. Carroll originally didn't have an answer to the riddle of the raven and the writing desk, but many have been suggested since, Do you have one?
4. What do you think of the surreal version of time pictured here?
5. Who are Elsie, Lacie, and Tillie?
6. This chapter is full of puns; do you have any favorites?
7. The hare and the hatter are supposed to be mad. Do they seem any crazier than anyone else?
8. How does Alice finally get into the garden?
Chapter 8:
1. How do the suits and values of the cards fit their occupations and stations in life?
2. “Off with their head” is the Queen of Hearts’ reaction to everything. How come any of them are left alive?
3. What do you think of the croquet game? Could it actually be possible to play it?
4. Could one behead a bodiless creature?
You can read the novel online (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)
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The caterpillar seems quite literal to me. He questions everything that Alice says and provides only short responses.
"What do you mean by that?' said the Caterpillar sternly. 'Explain yourself!'
'I can't explain MYSELF, I'm afraid, sir' said Alice, 'because I'm not myself, you see.'
'I don't see,' said the Caterpillar.
'I'm afraid I can't put it more clearly,' Alice replied very politely, 'for I can't understand it myself to begin with; and being so many different sizes in a day is very confusing.'
'It isn't,' said the Caterpillar.
'Well, perhaps you haven't found it so yet,' said Alice; 'but when you have to turn into a chrysalis—you will some day, you know—and then after that into a butterfly, I should think you'll feel it a little queer, won't you?'
'Not a bit,' said the Caterpillar. ..."
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I love that caterpillar....I think he is my favourite character so far.
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Deb, the caterpillar IS quite an unusual character. What a dramatic imagination Lewis Carroll had to create so many different characters and give them such interesting dialog.
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We can still continue to talk about the caterpillar and the pigeon too as we move on tomorrow to Chapter 6 and the house of the Duchess.
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It was an interesting progression, I thought, from Alice's certainty that the White Rabbit would be surprised when he finds out WHO she is, to the Caterpillar's unanswered question when he asks, "WHO are YOU," to the Pigeon's question - "WHAT are you", and Alice's uncertain reply, "I'm a little girl (rather doubtfully.)"
Does Alice seem to be enjoying this adventure in Wonderland as a pleasant dream at this point, or would she welcome the chance to return home if she discovered a way out?
Just read that Alice is still determined to get into the beautiful garden...and had had enough presence of mind to hold on to the mushroom chunks to change her size at will!
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Alice is confused but seems determined to "participate" in Wonderland. She doesn't seem too upset/frustrated to want to get out of there.
How would you describe the Duchess? The cook?
What have you learned about the origin of the Cheshire Cat?
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Alice has had no change of mind, she is determined to get into the beautiful garden, and as we now see with this week's chapters she does indeed!
How would I describe the Duchess? One word...UGLY! My annotation says: "The chin of Tenniel's Duchess is not very little or sharp, but she is certainly ugly. It seems likely that he copied a painting attributed to the sixteenth-century Flemish artist Quentin Matsys (his name has variant spellings). The portrait is popularly regarded as one of the fourteenth-century duchess Margaret of Carinthia and Tyrol. She had the reputation of being the ugliest woman in history.
The duchess is not only ugly in her looks, but she is also very ugly in her actions with the poor baby and the violent lullaby.
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Bellamarie, interesting about the "ugliest woman in history." What a scene with the cook throwing things at the duchess and the baby!
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I found myself wondering what Carroll meant by "nursing" the baby/pig and what young Alice understood him to mean when told by the Duchess to nurse it.
When trying to understand these images, the violent cook, the unconcerned mother Duchess, the howling pig/ baby ...I could see Alice caught up in a bad dream, understanding only that she's got to get the baby out of there before they kill it. Do you dream nonsense sometimes...and wonder what kernel of truth sparked the nonsense?
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Looking for the kernel of truth that may have produced the pig/baby in the dream, I noticed the reference in the Annotations to a story famous at the time, in which "the Countess of Buckingham arranged for His Majesty, James I, to witness the baptism of what he thought was an infant in arms, but was actually a pig, an animal that James I particularly loathed."
I'm going to hunt for more on that story. Maybe it was something that both Dodgdon and Alice knew about...
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I also posted earlier that Carroll disliked little boys so much that it is probably why he turned the baby boy into a pig, considered one of the dirtiest, ugliest animals.
That entire kitchen scene gave me a headache just reading it with things flying, the Duchess and her horrible lullaby, and Alice having to "nurse" the squealing pig baby. I thought....what on earth is all this commotion about. I do have dreams of chaos at times and wake up thinking, holy cow, do I need to slow down in life or get some things in better order.
I think when he used the word "nurse" it pretty much meant "care for" the baby pig.
The entire book is nonsensical......so who on earth can make heads or tails of anything. Speaking of heads or tails, isn't it ironic how one poem, lullaby, or saying always seems to be in contrast to one we use often today? The lullaby reminded me of,
"The Old Woman in the Shoe"
There was an old woman who lived in a shoe.
She had so many children, she didn't know what to do;
She gave them some broth without any bread;
Then whipped them all soundly and put them to bed
p.s. Tried to post a pic but just can not get the hang of how to do it. Can some one help me out please?
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Joan, I was wondering about "nursing" also but resolved it the same way as Bellamarie: to "care for."
In addition to the information in the notes in the Annotated version, maybe Carroll remembered the letter his father sent him when he was 7 or 8 in which pigs are associated somewhat with babies in his story: "Then what a bawling & a tearing of hair there will be: Pigs & babies, camels & butterflies, rolling in the gutter together — old women rushing up the chimneys & cows after them — ducks hiding themselves in coffee cups..."
Most of the time I don't remember my dreams but my husband has the craziest dreams. He can't figure out how he imagines them in his sleep.
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Trying to post a pic so bare with me....
(http://images.lipstickalley.net/images/signaturepics/sigpic32903_2.gif)
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I really like the wacky logic in chapter 6--literally correct, but not quite making sense:
"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to."
"I don't much care where--"
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go."
"--so long as I get somewhere."
"Oh, you're sure to do that, if you only walk long enough."
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That's a wonderful request, Bellamarie. Lewis Carroll couldn't have put it any better. I can't stop laughing. That's just why I haven't been posting to this lively discussion. I feel I would be baring too much of my soul by commenting on Carroll's dark nonsene. I was alright in my blissful state of innocence until I read the introduction to the annotated edition. I soon concluded that poor Alice had suffered the same fate as Humpty Dumpty. I expected more from a clergyman and a math professor.
Carroll did leave me wondering why the Pope encouraged William to invade and conquer England. And what made a patriot out of the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Perhaps the pic can't get past the censor. LOL.
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Jonathan!! My dear friend, I have been looking for you and missing you. I wondered, no pun intended, if you had gotten lost in the Rabbit Hole and couldn't get out with the rest of us......
It is difficult to get past the dark side of Carroll, once you have the knowledge the annotations provide. I am pushing through and expressing my disbelief and horror as we go. NOT that I am saying Carroll was on drugs when he created this nonsense, but I can tell you I think I would rather think it, rather than imagine a mind so deluded to be able to come up with this all on his own. But then again, has he come up with this story on his own? Considering we are seeing and learning so much contrast to other people's stories, poems, etc., it seems our dear oooops strike that/,/ our dark Carroll has borrowed some of his ideas from others. It is really great to hear from you Jonathan, and now your innocence and blissful state will never be the same. So, do you suppose if Alice suffered the same fate as poor Humpty Dumpty, will all the King's horses and all the King's men fail to put her back together again?
Stick around Jonathan, you always make me laugh out loud!!! On to this week's chapters.......
Ciao for now~
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Pat, Jonathan, so good to have you join in here. We need your perspective, Isn't this wild? Can you think of another children's story like it?
This is from the original poem Carroll parodies...it's almost as if he just can't resist the urge to parody something devotional, or morally instructional. Strange for a church deacon, don't you think?
From the Original Poem
Speak gently! -- It is better far
To rule by love, than fear --
Speak gently -- let not harsh words mar
The good we might do here!
Speak gently to the little child!
Its love be sure to gain;
Teach it in accents soft and mild: --
It may not long remain.
And we saw what became of the little child treated harshly... he has run off - in the guise of the little pig!
At least Alice tried to look out for him. Do you think we will see the baby later in the tale?
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We can't go past the Cheshire Cat without first identifying his importance in the story...why the grinning cat? And does anyone have any thoughts about what is meant by the grin in the treetop - just the grin, no cat?
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100306192528/aliceinwonderland/images/thumb/5/5d/Cheshire_tenniel.jpg/200px-Cheshire_tenniel.jpg)
Pat, I thought the "wacky logic" in Chapter 6 made perfect sense...what does that say about me? If you don't know where you are going, what difference does it make which way you go?
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Pat, yes... the caterpillar has literal logic so much so that it doesn't actually make sense. That must be especially funny for a logic teacher.
Joan, thanks for the original of the poem. I think Carroll's is such a funny contrast.
Speak roughly to your little boy,
And beat him when he sneezes:
He only does it to annoy,
Because he knows it teases.
Chorus
Wow! wow! wow!
I speak severely to my boy,
I beat him when he sneezes;
For he can thoroughly enjoy
The pepper when he pleases!
(Maybe the "Monty Python" group inherited some of his humor.) The Lemony Snicket "Series of Unfortunate Events" are absurd children's books. Perhaps even more so than Alice.
Jonathan, it's good to see you here. Please stay.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_CatDairy farming[edit]
A possible origin of the phrase "Grinning like a Cheshire Cat" is one favoured by the people of Cheshire, which boasts numerous dairy farms; hence the cats grin because of the abundance of milk and cream.
(http://images-mix.netdna-ssl.com/w/300/h/300/q/85/upload/images/extaudio/24c9e677-dffd-48b0-98ed-166f2f80d300.jpg)
(http://www.lewiscarroll.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Alice-Blanket-300x300.jpg)
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Just had to share this article since it made me laugh. The Cheshire cat pretty much tells Alice what I have been thinking all along .........
The Cheshire Cat
Character Analysis
Character in: Wonderland
The Cheshire Cat is famous for its ability to appear and disappear at will and for its enormous grin. In fact, sometimes the entire Cat disappears, leaving only the grin behind. The most important thing the Cat does is tell Alice that everyone in Wonderland is crazy – even her. Alice has trouble accepting this at first, but the reader has been expecting it for some time. Alice is impressed by the cat's shoot-from-the-hip (or in this case, from the grin!) honesty. Throughout the rest of her adventure in Wonderland, Alice will look anxiously around her for the Cheshire Cat, hoping for more advice or at least intelligent conversation. And, of course, we already know that Alice is partial to cats, since she's always talking about her favorite pet, Dinah.
The name "Cheshire Cat" is a contemporary Victorian joke that most modern readers miss. "Grin like a Cheshire Cat" was a saying at the time, although nobody really knows where it came from. One theory is about the famous cheeses in the town of Cheshire, which, the story goes, were made in the shape of cat faces to amuse buyers. The Cheshire Cat is like one of these come to life. This also explains why the Cat's body will disappear, leaving only its head behind – the cheeses were shaped like the face, not the entire cat. Perhaps the appearance of the grin without the rest of the cat is a joke about eating part of the "face" of cheese and leaving the rest.
http://www.shmoop.com/alice-in-wonderland-looking-glass/cheshire-cat.html
Have to admit, that cat is purrrrrty catty!!! :D :D :D
Ciao for now~
p.s. So excited I finally figured out how to post the pics. Jonathan, you were right, "Perhaps the pic can't get past the censor. LOL." Stick around I just may need your help with the Mad Hatter!
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Thanks for that information and the illustrations, Bellamarie. I love the Cheshire cat and his disappearing body.
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"The name "Cheshire Cat" is a contemporary Victorian joke that most modern readers miss. "Grin like a Cheshire Cat" was a saying at the time, although nobody really knows where it came from..."
Thanks for the information on the Cheshire cat, Bella - I really didn't think that Carroll had created him from his imagination - now can see that the children would have recognized the familiar expression and a grinning cat as Mr. Dodgson weaves his tale around him.
Hmmm...I hadn't thought of Alice as mad - had you? Chessie does, says she must be mad or she wouldn't be here. I thought of her as a little girl, caught up in a nightmare, or a nonsensical dream. Maybe that's what it is to be mad...
Do you remember reading that Dodgson was interested in mental disorders?
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JoanP, I don't think of Alice as mad either. You can't recognize craziness without a sane person as contrast.
Sad to say, the mad hatter was probably a stock figure then.
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Well, good. That's two of us. I don't want to think of poor Alice as mad.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/MadlHatterByTenniel.svg/220px-MadlHatterByTenniel.svg.png)
Next up - the Mad Hatter character, which at first I thought was based on another well- known expression - "mad as as hatter" - referring to the Mad Hatter disease.
"Mad hatter disease, or mad hatter syndrome, is a commonly used name for occupational chronic mercury poisoning among hatmakers whose felting work involved prolonged exposure to mercury vapours. The neurotoxic effects included tremor and the pathological shyness and irritability characteristic of erethism"
I've a footnote here that indicates that Carroll's Mad Hatter was not based on someone suffering from a mad hatter disease, but that Tenniel's drawing of the Hatter resembled a furniture maker, Theophilus Carter, who was known in this area as the Mad Hatter - "because he wore a top hat and because of his eccentric ideas."
I loved the nonsensical tea party conversation! Alice comes across as the sane logical person in contrast, Pat.
I bet Jonathan will come up with an answer to the Mad Hatter's raven / writing desk riddle. (I need to think about it! :D)
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I found myself laughing out loud in the chapter "A Mad Tea-Party", this especially cracked me up:
The table was a large one, but the three were all crowded together at one corner of it. "No room! No room!" they cried out when they saw Alice coming. "There's plenty of room!" said Alice indignantly, and she sat down in a large arm-chair at one end of the table. "Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone. Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea. "I don't see any wine," she remarked. "There isn't any," said the March Hare. "Then it wasn't very civil of you to offer it," said Alice angrily. "It wasn't very civil of of you to sit down without being invited," said the March Hare. "I didn't know it was your table," said Alice: "it's laid for a great many more than three." "Your hair wants cutting," said the Hatter. He had been looking at Alice for some time with great curiosity, and this was his first speech. "You should learn not to make personal remarks," Alice said with some severity: "it's very rude." The Hatter opened his eyes very wide on hearing this: but all he said was "Why is a raven like a writing-desk?"
Then the whole double talk begins ....hilarious! Alice was pretty outspoken with the Mad Hatter and the March Hare. She really does look angry in this pic.
(http://www.culture24.org.uk/asset_arena/6/04/05/350406/v0_master.jpg)
Alice gets frustrated with all the reverse logic, she tries desperately to make them see logic, but in Wonderland there is none! Then comes the whole confusing conversation about time. Again, no logic in Wonderland, time is the same always, 6:00 tea time.
Alice says, "I think you might do something better with time . . . than wasting it in asking riddles that have no answers." To this, the Hatter replies: "If you knew Time as well as I do . . . you wouldn't talk about wasting it. It's him."
Time is thus suddenly personified and becomes the source of much punning and comic relief. Alice participates in this nonsense in all seriousness, saying that she has to "beat time" when she learns music, even though she has "perhaps" never spoken to "him."
"Ah! That accounts for it," says the Mad Hatter. "He won't stand beating!"
Oh my this is so funny, poor Alice just can't seem to get anywhere, and she so badly wanted to keep this entire tea party within her above the world table etiquette and proper, polite conversation. Did you notice Alice never did get any tea or food. ::) ::)
Ciao for now~
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1. Why would madness be characteristic of hatters?
I found this link, which is also the annotations in my book........
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1897/what-caused-the-mad-hatter-to-go-mad
The most famous Mad Hatter, of course, is the one from the Mad Tea Party in Alice in Wonderland, the partner of the March Hare. Both mad, of course. But Lewis Carroll did not invent the phrase, although he did create the character. The phrases "mad as a hatter" and "mad as a March hare" were common at the time Lewis Carroll wrote (1865 was the first publication date of Alice). The phrase had been in common use in 1837, almost 30 years earlier. Carroll frequently used common expressions, songs, nursery rhymes, etc., as the basis for characters in his stories.
The origin of the phrase, it's believed, is that hatters really did go mad. The chemicals used in hat-making included mercurious nitrate, used in curing felt. Prolonged exposure to the mercury vapors caused mercury poisoning. Victims developed severe and uncontrollable muscular tremors and twitching limbs, called "hatter's shakes"; other symptoms included distorted vision and confused speech. Advanced cases developed hallucinations and other psychotic symptoms.
'Twas the hatters, not the wearers of hats. The hatters were exposed to the mercury fumes, which would have been long dissipated (or of insignificant strength) by the time the hat was worn. This use of mercury is now subject to severe legal restrictions (if not banned) in the U.S. and Europe.
While this is the most widely accepted origin of the phrase, there are those who believe that the phrase was originally "mad as an adder" (meaning poisonous as the snake) which degenerated to hatter. Sounds pretty flimsy to me, but then etymology is not an empirical science.
OK, having answered the question, I can't help but add some trivia.
There have been many guesses about whether Carroll was satirizing any particular individual with his Mad Hatter, or whether Tenniel (the first and most famous illustrator of Alice) was caricaturing anyone. Speculation ranges from Theophilus Carter, a furniture dealer near Oxford (most likely) to Prime Minister Gladstone (highly implausible).
Dropping the H, "Mad Adder" could imply a mathematician, such as Carroll himself. But then we start to move into realms of, well, madness.
As long as we're off the subject, the expression "mad as a March hare" refers to the frenzied capers of the male hare during March, its mating season. Evan Morris of The Word Detective says, "Of course, the hare's behavior probably only appears strange to us--we can only guess how our human courtship rituals might appear to a rabbit. In any case, March Hares can't be entirely bonkers because, after all, every summer brings a new crop of baby hares."
Martin Gardner, author of the wonderful Annotated Alice, reports that two British scientists (Anthony Holley and Paul Greenwood, in Nature, June 7, 1984) made extensive observations of the behaviors of hares in the spring, and found no evidence that male hares go into a frenzy during the March rutting season. They concluded that the main courtship behavior of male hares during the entire breeding period (many months) is chasing females and then boxing with them. Behavior in March is no different from any other month.
Of course, this would not be the first time that popular beliefs and scientific observation don't jibe, nor where popular beliefs have lead to common expressions that are not scientifically verifiable.
Apparently Erasmus (1466?-1536), the Dutch Renaissance scholar and theologian, wrote the expression "mad as marsh hare," and there is now some speculation that this got corrupted to "March" in later decades. However, long before Carroll was writing, the expression was "mad as a March Hare," regardless of scientific validity.
Also worth noting that the Tenniel illustrations of the March Hare show wisps of straw in his hair. It was a Victorian symbol, both in art and on the stage, of madness.
The Hatter and the Hare reappear in Alice Through the Looking Glass as the King's messengers, Hatta and Haigha.
7. The hare and the hatter are supposed to be mad. Do they seem any crazier than anyone else?
According to this exchange, I think it's clear to say, everyone in Wonderland is mad!
"In that direction," the Cat said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Hatter: and in that direction," waving the other paw, "lives a March Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you ca'n't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be, said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
Again the question of some type of chemicals are being referred to causing hallucinations and psychotic symptoms. I am almost convinced Carroll was mad as a hatter!!
Ciao for now~
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Wow, lots of good detail here, Bellamarie, thanks. The more closely we look at the story, the more we see that most of the details are far from random.
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The language and logic play in this chapter is really quite interesting. Since Carroll was a logic teacher it seems that he's commenting on the limited uses of logic and the imprecise nature of language in the "actual" world as well as the strange uses in Wonderland.
The Hare speaks up to ask Alice if she'd like more tea. Irritated, Alice replies "'I've had nothing yet...so I can't take more.' To this the Hatter says, 'you mean you can't take less...it's very easy to take more than nothing.'"
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Oh that is such an important point, Marcie! The "imprecise nature" of language, can make anyone mad when attempting to apply logic. Certainly an enjoyable interlude in the garden - clearly something Alice and her sisters must have appreciated, especially hearing this from their logic teacher.
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Indeed, logic puzzles were one of Carroll's specialties. I can see him smiling as he puts in these little conundrums.
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Were you able to identify the three little sisters in the Dormouse's story, who lived in the bottom of a well? It was obvious the three girls were Liddells, but I had to check the annotations for the meaning of their names -
With the possible exception of Lucie, I doubt anyone reading the story even in Alice's day would have understood the work Carroll put into the story. Was he attempting to hide their identities when deciding to publish the story?
Elsie- L.C - Lorina Charlotte
Tillie- Edith's family nickname - Matilda
Lucie - an anagram of Alice
They lived on treacle?
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There's a lot of wordplay about treacle here. Who can figure it out? (Treacle is molasses--wouldn't ever be my choice for a diet.)
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PatH., Nothing about Carroll making this story up was random....he used his intelligence as a mathematician in all his riddles.
Marcie, Indeed Carroll is using limited uses of logic and the imprecise nature of language in the "actual" world as well as the strange uses in Wonderland. "
This is what is frustrating Alice so much! Can you imagine how the Liddell girls felt listening to this story.
To give us more insight into the mathematician's mind enjoy this article I found. Nothing is random, by chance or make believe in this story, except for the characters (who obviously are caricatures of people he knew) even though it is full of nonsense to the average person, it made complete sense to Carroll's brilliant mind.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427391.600-alices-adventures-in-algebra-wonderland-solved.html?page=3#.U2EgovldWPN
Dodgson took his mathematics to his fiction. Using a technique familiar from Euclid's proofs, reductio ad absurdum, he picked apart the "semi-logic" of the new abstract mathematics, mocking its weakness by taking these premises to their logical conclusions, with mad results. The outcome is Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
The parallels between Hamilton's maths and the Hatter's tea party - or perhaps it should read "t-party" - are uncanny. Alice is now at a table with three strange characters: the Hatter, the March Hare and the Dormouse. The character Time, who has fallen out with the Hatter, is absent, and out of pique he won't let the Hatter move the clocks past six.
Reading this scene with Hamilton's maths in mind, the members of the Hatter's tea party represent three terms of a quaternion, in which the all-important fourth term, time, is missing. Without Time, we are told, the characters are stuck at the tea table, constantly moving round to find clean cups and saucers.
Their movement around the table is reminiscent of Hamilton's early attempts to calculate motion, which was limited to rotatations in a plane before he added time to the mix. Even when Alice joins the party, she can't stop the Hatter, the Hare and the Dormouse shuffling round the table, because she's not an extra-spatial unit like Time.
The Hatter's nonsensical riddle in this scene - "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - may more specifically target the theory of pure time. In the realm of pure time, Hamilton claimed, cause and effect are no longer linked, and the madness of the Hatter's unanswerable question may reflect this.
Alice's ensuing attempt to solve the riddle pokes fun at another aspect of quaternions: their multiplication is non-commutative, meaning that x × y is not the same as y × x. Alice's answers are equally non-commutative. When the Hare tells her to "say what she means", she replies that she does, "at least I mean what I say - that's the same thing". "Not the same thing a bit!" says the Hatter. "Why, you might just as well say that 'I see what I eat' is the same thing as 'I eat what I see'!"
It's an idea that must have grated on a conservative mathematician like Dodgson, since non-commutative algebras contradicted the basic laws of arithmetic and opened up a strange new world of mathematics, even more abstract than that of the symbolic algebraists.
When the scene ends, the Hatter and the Hare are trying to put the Dormouse into the teapot. This could be their route to freedom. If they could only lose him, they could exist independently, as a complex number with two terms. Still mad, according to Dodgson, but free from an endless rotation around the table.
_______________________________________
So did they successfully stuff the Dormouse into the teapot? I think NOT! So is this to signify the nonsense continues? I think so!
Ciao for now~
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2. What is a dormouse?
The dormouse is a small mouse-like rodent predominantly found in Europe. There are 29 different species of dormouse found today, which are most well-known for their long periods of hibernation throughout the cooler winter months.
Once emerged from hibernation in late spring, dormice begin to breed.
This would explain why the dormouse would be present in the month of March which is when the story is taking place, since we have the March Hare as well. He is a really cute little animal.
(http://www.redorbit.com/media/uploads/2004/10/42_eaee69868c4d6c53a477982f026e777c.jpg)
It seems the dormouse plays at least some importance according to the article in my last post, of mathematics of logic:
When the scene ends, the Hatter and the Hare are trying to put the Dormouse into the teapot. This could be their route to freedom. If they could only lose him, they could exist independently, as a complex number with two terms. Still mad, according to Dodgson, but free from an endless rotation around the table
.(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2b-Ntp4vckw/TBPDtlOovFI/AAAAAAAAECA/q1IpVu-yHx8/s400/hatter-hare-dormouse-alice.jpg)
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According to my notes, doormice were sometimes kept in teapots as pets. That picture is indeed cute, but if they wake up from hibernation and immediately start breeding, sounds like a pet with problems.
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The question keeps coming up about the raven/writing desk riddle. I stopped thinking about it it because I was convinced that Carroll had no answer. But I had fun reading this article...-
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1173/why-is-a-raven-like-a-writing-desk
"Lewis Carroll himself got bugged about this so much that he was moved to write the following in the preface to the 1896 edition of his book:
Enquiries have been so often addressed to me, as to whether any answer to the Hatter's Riddle can be imagined, that I may as well put on record here what seems to me to be a fairly appropriate answer, viz: 'Because it can produce a few notes, tho they are very flat; and it is never put with the wrong end in front!' This, however, is merely an afterthought; the Riddle, as originally invented, had no answer at all.
Did this discourage people? No...some of the more notable of which are recorded in Martin Gardner's The Annotated Alice and More Annotated Alice:
Because the notes for which they are noted are not noted for being musical notes. (Puzzle maven Sam Loyd, 1914)
Because Poe wrote on both. (Loyd again)
Because there is a B in both and an N in neither. (Get it? Aldous Huxley, 1928)
Because it slopes with a flap. (Cyril Pearson, undated)
Not bad for amateurs. But the real answer, to which the careers of Poe and Carroll bear ample testimony, is that you can baffle the billions with both.
A comment concerning Lewis Carroll's infamous "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" riddle. The best answer I ever heard — and remember that feather pens were a common writing tool of the day, and that writing desks had inkwells — was, "Because they both come with inky quills."
Back in the 1930s, when I first picked up my mother's dog-eared copy of the works of Lewis Carroll, I asked her why a raven was like a writing desk. She answered with a straight face, "Because you cannot ride either one of them like a bicycle." Since this was true, and it was just as true as saying, "Because neither one of them is made from aluminum," I always thought Mom was right."
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I think I liked the sleepy little dormouse better than the other guests at the tea party. He wasn't judgemental as the other two. He was just tryng to tell that story of the little girls in the treacle well, but was never able to get it out. A note says there was actually a molasses well...that the molasses had medicinal properties... That the three little girls may have had an illness. I wonder what Carroll had in mind with this beginning of a story. I wonder too, if he'll return to it again...
Pat - your explanation of keeping dormice as pets in a teapot is as good an explanation as any of why they were trying to put him in the pot...
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Bellamarie, I appreciate your sharing that article with us from the New Scientist. I don't understand the math but am able to get a sort of intuitive gist of the argument. It's fascinating, whether or not Carroll actually had all that in mind.
I love the photo of the dormouse. His looks don't seem to fit his sleepy personality in the story but I guess dormice aren't used to being awake during the day. I love the idea of children keeping a little mouse in an old teapot.
Joan, that's hilarious:
Back in the 1930s, when I first picked up my mother's dog-eared copy of the works of Lewis Carroll, I asked her why a raven was like a writing desk. She answered with a straight face, "Because you cannot ride either one of them like a bicycle." Since this was true, and it was just as true as saying, "Because neither one of them is made from aluminum," I always thought Mom was right."
What a great mom.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15
Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll
| (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/aliceinwonderland/aliceinwonderland.jpg) |
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll.
We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2
April 21-27 Chapters 3 - 6
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Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.
April 28 - May 5 Chapter 7 - 9
Chapter 7:
1. Why would madness be characteristic of hatters?
2. What is a dormouse?
3. Carroll originally didn't have an answer to the riddle of the raven and the writing desk, but many have been suggested since, Do you have one?
4. What do you think of the surreal version of time pictured here?
5. Who are Elsie, Lacie, and Tillie?
6. This chapter is full of puns; do you have any favorites?
7. The hare and the hatter are supposed to be mad. Do they seem any crazier than anyone else?
8. How does Alice finally get into the garden?
Chapter 8:
1. How do the suits and values of the cards fit their occupations and stations in life?
2. “Off with their head” is the Queen of Hearts’ reaction to everything. How come any of them are left alive?
3. What do you think of the croquet game? Could it actually be possible to play it?
4. Could one behead a bodiless creature?
Chapter 9:
1. Does everything have a moral?
2. How does the King undo the Queen’s harshness?
3. What is a mock turtle? A gryphon?
4. The mock turtle’s story is full of puns. Can you identify them?
5. What could logically happen on the twelfth day?
You can read the novel online (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)
marcie, I don't think the average person could or would understand the math, so just imagine the complexity all this must have seemed to the children of the Liddells ages. I read this story was not intended for small children their age. I can see why.
I have to share with you all, today my grand daughter Kenzie came to pick up her two younger sisters who I daycare after school. She just completed her last Freshman exam in college and now is excited to start her Sophmore year living with her sorority sisters in the house on campus at the end of summer. She and I share the love of reading and have written a children's book together.....or rather I wrote the book and she illustrated it for me. Anyways, she saw my Alice In Wonderland Annotated Definitive copy sitting by my laptop and asked what that was, she said she has never seen an Alice In Wonderland book like that before. Mind you Alice is her favorite childhood movie. I was telling her about the annotations and our online discussion. She was amazed at the knowledge we have turned up about the characters, math riddles, etc. She and I share books all the time back and forth since her years in high school, so of course she asked if she could borrow it once I was done with it. She said she loves learning all about the authors and the mindset of their writing. I told her, well get ready because this one is going to blow your mind! So now I have my three yr. old grand daughter Zoey wanting me to read her, "Nonnie's Wonderland book", and my eighteen yr. old grand daughter wanting to borrow it. What have we started?
marcie, Here is a better image of the dormouse's sleepy life.
(http://www.warrenphotographic.co.uk/photography/bigs/16457-Dormouse-hibernating.jpg)
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Bellamarie, What a wonderful bond you have with your grand daughters. And how great that you've created a book together with the eldest.
Thanks for that photo. That's more like the sleepy dormouse in the story!
It's great that Alice can be read on many levels. The Liddel girls enjoyed the story so much that Alice L. asked for it to be written down. I wouldn't have caught on to most of the items in the annotated version so I can enjoy just reading it on my own and then get more out of it with the notes and everyone's comments here.
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Are there any statistics about how many adult readers of this book have felt themselves going mad trying to make sense of the wonders and the riddles? And yet one has to assume that the author's, the Oxford professor's intent, was to stimulate young minds into examining and questioning everything. Goodness knows what he's positing with that ridiculous riddle about the raven and the writing desk. I admire the sanity in Alice's answer. They are alike. She doesn't know much about either. Just like Mom's answer. Neither is a bicycle.
Keep in mind. Mathematicians like elegant solutions to their wild propositions.
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(http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/348289/348289,1302720037,1/stock-vector-executioner-argues-with-king-about-cutting-off-cheshire-cat-head-alice-s-adventures-in-wonderland-75202621.jpg)
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(http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/348289/348289,1302720037,1/stock-vector-executioner-argues-with-king-about-cutting-off-cheshire-cat-head-alice-s-adventures-in-wonderland-75202621.jpg)
I went searching for a theory, and ran out of time before I could post and modify, so my apologies for posting this pic twice. (I am learning resizing so bare with me.) When I first looked at this picture of the Cheshire cat a week or so ago, I made notations before reading this chapter today, about how this picture of the argument of executing the Cheshire Cat, reminded me of this picture of Pilate arguing whether to execute Jesus.
(http://karenswhimsy.com/public-domain-images/church-clipart/images/church-clipart-9.jpg)
It got me to thinking about how the Cheshire Cat could exist without his body, and it made me see the Cheshire Cat similar to God, reigning over everyone, and how it would not be possible for the Cat to be beheaded/killed since he can vanish and reappear, just as God could never be killed since he is of Spirit. So I went searching for something to substantiate my theory, if it could be possible Carroll being a Reverend, is using this in a religious sense. I found this:
http://www.scientistsincongregations.org/media/Dawson_mindNotes.docx
"Although we find it difficult to envision a bodiless existence, that is precisely what Christians traditionally attribute to God (e.g., based on Biblical passages such as "God is a Spirit" John 4:14)
The "mind-body problem" is most often associated with Rene Decartes but has long and varied history (going back at least to Plato). The central issue is how the activity of the mind arises from the brain. The idea that the mind needs a body in which to exist and properly function is called "embodiment." Thus we speak of embodiment cognition. Note: Decartes is probably best known for his often quoted, "I think, therefore, I am." ("cogito ergo sum" in Latin).
After reading this it reminded me of this...
John 18:37 ASV
American Standard Version
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end have I been born, and to this end am I come into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
The people are gathered in the Alice picture, much like the people were gathered in the Jesus picture. And the argument as to whether the Cheshire Cat deserves to be beheaded, is similar to the argument as to whether Jesus has done any wrong to be executed. The executioner in Alice, like Pilate, defers the decision to someone else....they ask Alice, and Pilate asks the people to decide. The Duchess is in prison and they must bring her out, just like they must bring Barabas out of prison by the request of the people. This was a bit mind boggling to me putting this all together and seeing, it is possible Carroll drew from the Crucifixion, to create the Cheshire Cat's execution. A stretch.....maybe. But I am convinced it is a possibility.
Ciao for now~
p.s. Again I am sorry for the oversized pics....I really must learn to how to resize when the link has no width/height in it.
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http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/species/common-dormouse
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Thanks for the dormouse picture, bluebird. That's the cutest one of all.
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Bellamarie, I continue to be amazed at the detailed information you are diging up. I'd love to know what Carroll actually had in mind here with the Cheshire cat. Is this deliberate, or unconscious? We'll never know.
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PatH., I am beginning to scare myself..... I may be getting into Carroll's head more than I want to. I had a poem published a few years back in The International Library of Poetry, called Wandering Mind. I have always been open to just let my mind wander to places I never know, maybe that's why this story has me searching to uncover as much as I can. I see or read something and a thought pops into my head, and I go on a search to see if there is any basis or possible evidence, and when I find it I am surprised! Typing in Google's search bar..."similarities of the Cheshire Cat's execution and Jesus" was just a shot in the dark, and it took a few links and I found that one. I thought, Eureka! There it is! I have to admit it gave me goose bumps. :o
As much as Alice wants to hold on to logical thinking, I have come to the conclusion to just accept the story itself is all illogical, but strangely enough, Carroll had logic when creating. Ughhhh...did I just sound like the Mad Hatter? ::)
During the croquet game, Wonderland completely reversed the conventional above ground world so that inanimate objects rule the land and use living creatures as tools. Hedgehogs are the croquet balls, flamingos are the mallets, a deck of cards represent soldiers, children, Kings and Queens etc. But what I find ironic is that ultimately they defer to Alice to mediate the conflict of the Cheshire Cat's fate, which indicates they see her with some authority. Also when Alice stands up to the Queen:
"And who are these?" said the Queen, pointing to the three gardeners who were lying round the rose tree; for, you see, as they were lying on their faces, and the pattern on their backs was the same as the rest of the pack, she could not tell whether they were gardeners, or soldiers, or courtiers, or three of her own children.
"How should I know?" said Alice, surprised at her own courage. "It's no business of mine." The Queen turned crimson with fury, and, after glaring at her for a moment like a wild beast, began screaming "Off with her head!" Off with__"
"Nonsense!" said Alice, very loudly and decidedly, and the Queen was silent.
Where did Alice get this newfound strength to stand up to the bully Queen? Some how she did not feel the least bit threatened at this point. Is it because she saw them all as inanimate objects?
But then later she backs off:
The Cheshire cat asks her, "How do you like the Queen?" said the Cat in a low voice. "Not at all," said Alice: "she's so extremely__" Just then shen noticed that the Queen was close behind her, listening: so she went on "__likely to win, that it's hardly worth while finishing the game." The Queen smiled and passed on.
Why did Alice back off, and not stand her ground with the Queen here? In searching, and forgive me for not having the link, I found this explanation:
"Ultimately, Alice only has to wake up to destroy Wonderland and all of it's inhabitants. However, she remains "uneasy" as she plays croquet with the Queen, since a dispute might bring an early end to her dream and prohibit Alice from ever figuring out the point of Wonderland."
I thought about this theory, and it makes so much sense to me, because I have had dreams where I am in the middle of chaos, or something very exciting is about to happen, and I wake up. I am so disappointed because I did not get to know how it ends, that I actually have fallen back to sleep and picked up where the dream has left off. Now, I ask myself, "Did I actually wake up fully, or was I still in the dream? Or did I wake up, go back to sleep with the thought of where the dream was at, and then subconsciously, finish the dream the way I wanted it to end? Dreams are very complex.....I always have believed dreams can be interpreted into something that is in your real life. I read books on dreams when I first got married and moved away from my small hometown, to a bigger busy city life, and found myself always having dreams where I was in danger, and could not make myself wake up to save myself. It really bothered me to the point I began to unset my hubby's alarm clock so he would oversleep, so I would not be alone and have those dreams where I couldn't wake up. Yes, I told him years later I did it. :D I began researching dreams. Ironically, after I had my first child, I never experienced one of those scary dreams again. Maybe her crying in the night kept me from dreaming that deep. Maybe having someone in the house, knowing my hubby left for work helped, or the new puppy that barked a lot in the morning. Who knows? Maybe Freud? ;D ;D
Oh goodness, it's off to read The Mock Turtle's Story.....Heaven only knows what we will find here.
Ciao now for~
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Jonathan, I think I'm probably somewhat mad to begin with so the madness of ALICE IN WONDERLAND doesn't have an awful affect on me. It's funny, because in the actual world I'm pretty skeptical but when reading fantasy I seem to just go with the flow. ;)
Bellamarie, all of the information you're finding is intriguing. I love the illustration of the cheshire cat overlooking the gathering.
Bluebird, I agree with Pat that the photo you found is the best one yet of a dormouse. It looks right out of Wonderland.
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Jonathan, as the Mad Hatter might reply to your question, "say what you mean and mean what you say!" I'm actually beginning to see much of the humor in the madness.....so does that mean I may be going mad? ??? ??? ??? LOLOL
I'm with Marcie, I may be somewhat mad to begin with. I can stop the madness anytime I want by stop reading the book, just as Alice can stop the madness anytime she wants, by waking up. Like Alice, I think I will stick it out til the end and see where the madness leads me.
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Fabulous, Bellamarie. What a rich mind you have. What an endless prospect you are finding in this book. Will you ever find your way back? Or show us the way back? Waking up doesn't cut it any more. It may be too late. We have tasted the forbidden fruit. Eaten from the tree of knowledge.
The religious and philosophical ramifications you find are amazing. Your exegesis of the text is so much livelier than the annotations. Bringing God into the picture is overwhelming. And it has put an extraordinary thought into my head. I remember writing an essay on Cogito ergo sum in my early college days. Descartes was very happy with his discovery, no doubt. But it has left me in a state of wonder being reminded that God also said: I AM. Without thinking? Aren't we puny creatures presumptous with our flattering intellects?
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My cat has taken to grinning at me. It leaves me feeling uncomfortable.
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Can you still see its body? ;)
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Jonathan, " I remember writing an essay on Cogito ergo sum in my early college days. Descartes was very happy with his discovery, no doubt. But it has left me in a state of wonder being reminded that God also said: I AM. Without thinking? Aren't we puny creatures presumptuous with our flattering intellects?"
Well now, I am not sure if I was more shocked at finding my treasures, or impressed at finding out you, my friend did an essay on Cogito ergo sum and are aware of Descartes! I think if we are willing to keep our minds open to anything, we are going to always find something amazing.
Jonathan, "We have tasted the forbidden fruit. Eaten from the tree of knowledge."
Yes, indeed we have, and I am grinning like the Cheshire Cat, at your calling us puny creatures. As for your grinning cat, be careful, cats have a tendency to feel a bit Godly! tee hee
I must say I am just a bit disappointed the Mock Turtle chapter does not seem to be as intriguing as the last couple of chapters. Mock turtle soup, being a fake and no turtle actually in it seems ridiculous to even bother using the word turtle to describe it. Alice does seem to like the Mock turtle and Gryphon, and is having a nice chat with them, until of course the silliness returns.
The Duchess seems just a bit to close for comfort where Alice is concerned. And her sharp chin poking into Alice's shoulder made me laugh. Can you just see Alice wanting to give her a push off? I noticed once the Queen comes along she dismisses the Duchess, and continues to play the game of croquet with Alice, only to give up since there no longer is anyone left, after the Queen has decided to behead everyone. It was nice to hear the King reversed the Queen's order and not have anyone actually beheaded. So who really is in control here, the King or the Queen? Does the King just allow the Queen to think she is in control? Typical male, just keeping the peace? Does Carroll show here, that he must remain in control of his story by giving the King the ultimate control? :-\
Ciao for now~
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Duccio_di_Buoninsegna_027a.jpg/285px-Duccio_di_Buoninsegna_027a.jpg)
Not sure what happened to my picture I posted below the Cheshire Cat, of Pilate deciding on Jesus' execution. When looking at each picture it makes me wonder if possibly Carroll, being a reverend, could have been drawing from Jesus' Crucifixion, when he created the Cheshire Cat's execution story. He certainly has shown how he takes from other stories,events, plays, lullabies, poems etc., in creating his characters and plots. One can only wonder.
Ciao for now~
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http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs7/i/2005/241/9/6/Azo__the_Blue_Gryphon____1999_by_caramitten.jpg
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That's a magnificent gryphon, bluebird, thanks for finding it.
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That gryphon is pretty fierce looking, bluebird. I'm enjoying the eccentric characters of the mock turtle and the gryphon. The puns are lots of fun. I can just see the girls figuring them out and laughing at them. When the Mock Turtle tells Alice not to speak until he's finished his story, I imagine that Lewis Carroll probably told them the same thing when he was relating Alice in Wonderland. All of the details are so imaginative, such as having the turtle pause so long after the beginning sentence and Alice nearly giving up at that point and telling him thank you for the story.
I think that the picture that Carroll creates of the Duchess who sticks so close to Alice and finds morals in everything is also really funny. Especially since the morals don't usually apply to the object. I needed to read the notes in the Annotated version to point out that Alice goes from animal to vegetable to mineral when she is trying to classify "mustard" after the Duchess says that "flamingoes and mustard both bite. And the moral of that is 'Birds of a feather flock together.'"
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Did you notice that the gryphon has a working class accent? I'm not sure why. It was more reasonable in the workmen helping the lizard Bill go down the chimney, and reviving him afterward.
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So, after making fun of the moralizing songs the Liddell sisters knew, now Carroll is laughing at their lesson plans. I can imagine their glee. And one hour fewer of lessons each day until it's down to zero, with the Mock Turtle neatly sidestepping what happens next.
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Yes, Pat, one hour fewer of lessons until the day off on the 11th day and then (as the notes say) negative numbers??
I was wondering about the gryphon's accent. I was going to call it a working class accent but noticed that he DID go to school. It was not until the Education Act of 1870, also known as the "Forster Act", that England started the modern system of education. This not only gave rise to a national system of state education but also assured the existence of a dual system - voluntary denominational schools and nondenominational state schools.
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Here's a recipe for mock turtle soup:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_turtle_soup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_turtle_soup)
I wonder about the Mock Turtle's plaintive remark "Once, I was a real turtle."
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Pat, I thought that his remark was cute, as if mock turtles start out as turtles.
I'm not very adventuresome when it comes to food. That soup recipe does not sound at all appetizing to me :o
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I thought it sounded pretty nasty. There were more appealing recipes involving beef, tomatoes, and spices, but this looked like it was probably closest to the original recipe.
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I enjoyed the Gryphon and the Mock turtle, they both seemed to be the friendliest ones Alice has encountered, other than the Cheshire Cat so far. The subjects they mention and Alice's responses, made me laugh:
"Yes, we went to school in the sea, though you mayn't believe it__"
"I never said I didn't! interrupted Alice. (She gets a bit feisty here.)
"You did," said the Mock Turtle. (A verbal trap, referencing something she didn't say.)
"Hold your tongue!" added the Gryphon, before Alice could speak again. The Mock Turtle went on.
"We had the best of educations__in fact, we went to school every day__"
"I've been to a day-school, too," said Alice. "You needn't be so proud as all that." (She really is trying to prove she is educated as well.)
"With extras?" asked the Mock Turtle, a little anxiously. "Yes," said Alice: "we learned French and music." "And washing?" said the Mock Turtle. "Certainly not!" said Alice indignantly.
"Ah! Then yours wasn't a really good school," said the Mock Turtle in a tone of great relief. "Now, at ours, they had, at the end of the bill, 'French, music, and washing __ extra.'" (The Mock Turtle seems pleased with himself, he found something Alice didn't learn.)
(The phrase "French, music and washing__ extra" often appeared on boarding-school bills. It meant, of course, that there was an extra charge for French, and music, and for having one's laundry done by the school.) from annotations
Then this made me laugh:
"You couldn't have wanted it much," said Alice; "living at the bottom of the sea." "I couldn't afford to learn it." said the Mock Turtle, with a sigh. "I only took the regular course." "What was that?" inquired Alice.
Subjects mentioned:
Reeling, Writhing, branches of Arithmetic_Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision
Mysterying, Stretching, and Fainting of Coils.
Laughing and Grief, Seaography
Drawling (The "Drawling-master" who came once a week to teach "Drawling, Stretching, and Fainting in Coils" is a reference to non other than the art critic John Ruskin. Ruskin came once a week to the Liddell home to teach drawing, sketching, and painting in oils to the children.)
So many play on words in this chapter.
I can only imagine the Liddell girls getting excited to see Carroll bring in these subjects they were familiar with especially the Drawling, since Alice, her brother Henry, and her younger sister Victoria inherited their father's talent for art.
Then when Alice asks about what happens on the twelfth day, she has puzzled them and they change the subject. Again, I see Carroll is showing that you need to spend some time on lessons, but like his earlier poem, don't let them take up your entire days. I think it's his way of letting the Liddell children to take time for fun and fantasy.
Ciao for now~
p.s. I would spell check this post normally, but with all the play on words I can only imagine all the errors it will attempt to correct! ???
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This is how the queen will scare people. "Off with his head!' "Off with her head!" The queen will not scare the cheshire cat.
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I like the croquet game.
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I like the croquet game too. I wonder how you tell which hedgehog is yours when it wanders off.
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Just curious, are we reading ONLY Alice's Adventures in Wonderland? (Which has twelve chapters.)
My annotated definitive copy has Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found There , and also has, The Wasp in the Wig (A "Suppressed" Episode of Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found There)
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I am so excited, I forgot a couple of weeks ago I happened to check my Direct TV movie list and guess what I recorded on my DVR? Alice's Adventures in Wonderland! Since we are near the end of this book, I am going to sit back and watch it tonight. It will be interesting to see if Disney added or changed much, to make the movie. First time reading the story and this will be my first time seeing the movie!
Ciao for now~
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Lucky you, bellamarie! I saw it so long ago I remember almost nothing about it, except that the caterpillar was very impressive with his deep-voiced who are you?
To answer your question, the original plan was to read just Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Everything is open to negotiation, but I think doing more would overlap with the next discussion.
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bellamarie, I enjoyed all of the puns in this chapter too. Bluebird, I don't know the rules of croquet so I was just amused by the hedgehogs rolling and unrolling and hurrying away.
Bellamarie, which version of ALICE did you record? All of the adaptations are listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Films_and_television_programmes_based_on_Alice_in_Wonderland
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Marcie, I watched this version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_in_Wonderland_(1951_film)
Alice in Wonderland is a 1951 British-American animated fantasy comedy-adventure film produced by Walt Disney Productions and based primarily on Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland with a few additional elements from Through the Looking-Glass. The 13th in the Walt Disney Animated Classics series, the film was released in New York City and London on July 26, 1951. The film features the voices of Kathryn Beaumont (who later voiced Wendy Darling in the 1953 Disney film Peter Pan) as Alice, and Ed Wynn as the Mad Hatter. The theme song, "Alice in Wonderland", has since become a jazz standard.
The interesting thing is, I followed along in my book, and some parts were exact and then others were different, with parts of Through The Looking Glass in it. (Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum). Alice's first words in the movie after her sister has told her to kindly pay attention to her History lesson, about the Archbishop of Canterbury agreeing to meet with William, to offer him the crown." are: I'm sorry, but how can one possibly pay attention to a book with no pictures in it? Her sister responds, "My dear child there are many good books in this world without pictures." Alice, "In this world perhaps, but in my world the books would be nothing but pictures." Her sister replies, "Your world? What nonsense." Alice, "Nonsense, that's it Dinah. If I had a world of my own everything would be nonsense, nothing would be what it is because everything would be what it isn't, and contrary wise, what it is, it wouldn't be and what it wouldn't be, it would. Dinah, meows and Alice says to Dinah, "You see in my world you wouldn't say, meow, you would say, "Yes, Miss Alice." Dinah meows again, and Alice says, "Oh but you would, you'd be just like people Dinah, and all the other animals too." Alice then sings, "In A World Of My Own." She ends with. "Because my world would be a wonderland."
I liked the animated movie, and could see why children would like it. I have another version I will also watch that is not animated. Anxious to see how different this one will be from our story. I am glad I read our story first, before watching the movie. The whole unbirthday was cute, but obviously not in our story. I am assuming it took the place of the time always being 6:00 p.m., since it says there are 364 unbirthdays, referring to nonsensical time.
Ciao for now~
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PatH., I am fine with reading just Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. If I understand correctly, Through the Looking Glass, is Alice's, sister's version of what she was told from Alice about her adventure. I of course have never read it, so I may continue on with it myself.
I found a link that is Alice's copy of the actual book Carroll wrote and gave to her.
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/ttp/alice/accessible/introduction.html
The original book was only 91 pages long.
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Bellamarie, I know I've seen the Disney version but don't remember all of the details. That's a great introduction to the wonderland story.
I do remember the smoke-ring blowing caterpillar and the "Very happy Unbirthday" song.
Thanks very much for the link to the original written version of the story with Carroll's own illustrations. It took him two years to write down the story that he told during the afternoon outing. Notes say that he added a few things to the oral story, including some from stories that he had told the children on other days.
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The annotated book has a number of comments about differences between the original version and the final, published one--mostly changes for the better.
Now, with the quadrille, start in on another round of puns, spoofs of songs the sisters knew, and fantastical actions.
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marcie, Yes, I read Carroll changed and omitted from his original story where family names were concerned. I am sure he personalized it much more for the Liddell girls.
The ending in the movie was very interesting. Different from our story, yet similar. I will share later. My three year old granddaughter Zoey was watching this one when she came today and seemed to like it very much.
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The annotations says: The quadrille, a kind of square dance in five figures, was one of the most difficult of the ballroom dances fashionable at the time Carroll wrote his tale. The Liddell children had been taught the dance by a private tutor.
"Lobster Quadrille" could be an intended play on "Lancers Quadrille," a walking square dance for eight to sixteen couples that are enormously popular in English ballrooms a the time Carroll wrote his Alice books.
When I was reading this it made me smile because it brought back the years my hubby and I took dance lessons. We were quite good at line dancing, two-step, and even jitter bug, but when it came to switching partners at our square dance lessons, we were lost. Not to mention you had to dress the part and those can-can skirts were just not made for me. I never felt comfortable dancing with other men, although some had a very strong lead, I was worried of stepping on their toes. I felt my confidence was strongest when I was with my hubby. We joined the Country Kickers, and the Eagles which at the time was jammed packed with couples of all ages. Now a cowgirl hat and a cute pair of boots with a vest, I could enjoy wearing! We danced at least five nights a week going all over to local dance clubs. The best people in the world, best dance instructors, and most of all the best times we ever had! Country dancing has faded out, but we can still cut a rug! We actually met at a dance nightclub in 1970, and we will always have the desire to dance. LOL
Alice wasn't comfortable with the Lobster Quadrille, and was glad when it was over. I suppose, "every now and then treading on her toes when they passed too close, and waving their fore-paws to mark the time," probably had something to do with it. I like how she said, "Thank you, it's a very interesting dance to watch," said Alice, feeling very glad that it was over at last; "and I do so like that curious song about the whiting."
She stops herself before finishing the word "dinner", learning from her previous mistakes of mentioning eating animals. I see Alice is growing/maturing in this adventure?
Ciao for now~
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http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/c/carroll/lewis/
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April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15
Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll
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Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll.
We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2
April 21-27 Chapters 3 - 6
April 28 - May 5 Chapters 7 - 9
May 6 - May 11 Chapters 10 - 12
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Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.
April 28 - May 5 Chapter 7 - 9
Chapter 7:
1. Why would madness be characteristic of hatters?
2. What is a dormouse?
3. Carroll originally didn't have an answer to the riddle of the raven and the writing desk, but many have been suggested since, Do you have one?
4. What do you think of the surreal version of time pictured here?
5. Who are Elsie, Lacie, and Tillie?
6. This chapter is full of puns; do you have any favorites?
7. The hare and the hatter are supposed to be mad. Do they seem any crazier than anyone else?
8. How does Alice finally get into the garden?
Chapter 8:
1. How do the suits and values of the cards fit their occupations and stations in life?
2. “Off with their head” is the Queen of Hearts’ reaction to everything. How come any of them are left alive?
3. What do you think of the croquet game? Could it actually be possible to play it?
4. Could one behead a bodiless creature?
Chapter 9:
1. Does everything have a moral?
2. How does the King undo the Queen’s harshness?
3. What is a mock turtle? A gryphon?
4. The mock turtle’s story is full of puns. Can you identify them?
5. What could logically happen on the twelfth day?
Chapter 10:
1. What are your impressions of the Lobster-Quadrelle?
2. What lines stand out for you in the parody of "The Sluggard" in this chapter or any of the alternative versions you may have read?
Chapter 11:
1. What are some details in this "court" chapter that you find especially amusing/interesting?
Chapter 12:
1. What do you think of the "evidence" in this chapter?
2. What are your thoughts about the end of the story?
Have you seen any film adaptations of the story?
You can read the novel online (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)
marcie, I don't think the average person could or would understand the math, so just imagine the complexity all this must have seemed to the children of the Liddells ages. I read this story was not intended for small children their age. I can see why.
I have to share with you all, today my grand daughter Kenzie came to pick up her two younger sisters who I daycare after school. She just completed her last Freshman exam in college and now is excited to start her Sophmore year living with her sorority sisters in the house on campus at the end of summer. She and I share the love of reading and have written a children's book together.....or rather I wrote the book and she illustrated it for me. Anyways, she saw my Alice In Wonderland Annotated Definitive copy sitting by my laptop and asked what that was, she said she has never seen an Alice In Wonderland book like that before. Mind you Alice is her favorite childhood movie. I was telling her about the annotations and our online discussion. She was amazed at the knowledge we have turned up about the characters, math riddles, etc. She and I share books all the time back and forth since her years in high school, so of course she asked if she could borrow it once I was done with it. She said she loves learning all about the authors and the mindset of their writing. I told her, well get ready because this one is going to blow your mind! So now I have my three yr. old grand daughter Zoey wanting me to read her, "Nonnie's Wonderland book", and my eighteen yr. old grand daughter wanting to borrow it. What have we started?
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Bellamarie, kudos to you and your husband for your involvement in dancing. It sounds like you have a lot of fun.
Yes, Alice refrains from saying "dinner." She does seem to be learning the rules of this not usually logical world.
Bluebird, thanks for the site with Lewis Carroll's biography and bibliography. I opened his SYMBOLIC LOGIC text just to see what it would be like and he seems to start it (in the Introduction) in a similar humorous vein as ALICE:
"Begin at the beginning, and do not allow yourself to gratify a mere idle curiosity by dipping into the book, here and there. This would very likely lead to your throwing it aside, with the remark “This is much too hard for me!”, and thus losing the chance of adding a very large item to your stock of mental delights. This Rule (of not dipping) is very desirable with other kinds of books——such as novels, for instance, where you may easily spoil much of the enjoyment you would otherwise get from the story, by dipping into it further on, so that what the author meant to be a pleasant surprise comes to you as a matter of course. Some people, I know, make a practice of looking into Vol. III first, just to see how the story ends: and perhaps it is as well just to know that all ends happily——that the much-persecuted lovers do marry after all, that he is proved to be quite innocent of the murder, that the wicked cousin is completely foiled in his plot and gets the punishment he deserves, and that the rich uncle in India (Qu. Why in India? Ans. Because, somehow, uncles never can get rich anywhere else) dies at exactly the right moment——before taking the trouble to read Vol. I. pg_xiiThis, I say, is just permissible with a novel, where Vol. III has a meaning, even for those who have not read the earlier part of the story; but, with a scientific book, it is sheer insanity: you will find the latter part hopelessly unintelligible, if you read it before reaching it in regular course....."
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Bringing up the rear... There are so many distractions in this tale. I was fascinated by the Queen of Hearts...who did she represent in the deck of playing cards?
I found this-
"There are theories about who the court cards represent. For example, the Queen of Hearts is believed by some to be a representation of Elizabeth of York — the Queen consort of King Henry VII of England."
But I find nothing of violence in the life of Elizabeth of York...no beheadings. :D You have to wonder what was in Carroll's head with this character.
I've a footnote, quoting Carroll referring to the violent, murderous Queen of Hearts answering the question, "Should children's literature be free of violence?"
"A normal child finds violence amusing and is not damaged in the least...but Alice 's Adventures in Wonderland should not be allowed to circulate indiscriminately among adults who are undergoing analysis."
We can't take this man seriously!
The Queen was furious with Alice - "Off with her head!" But the King stands up for her..."She's only a child." Alice seems totally unperturbed by now ...I would be surprised to find her sobbing again in Wonderland.
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JoanP.,
The Queen was furious with Alice - "Off with her head!" But the King stands up for her..."She's only a child." Alice seems totally unperturbed by now ...I would be surprised to find her sobbing again in Wonderland.
In the animated Disney movie I just watched yesterday, Alice is terribly frightened and does sob once again in the story.
marcie, "Begin at the beginning, and do not allow yourself to gratify a mere idle curiosity by dipping into the book, here and there. This would very likely lead to your throwing it aside, with the remark “This is much too hard for me!”, and thus losing the chance of adding a very large item to your stock of mental delights.
I love this quote! I am someone who can never read ahead, to find out the ending. I find it much too fascinating to read in the order of the story, it keeps me guessing, and feeling more a part of being in the actual story. Once you know the ending, what is the purpose of even bothering to go back and read the in between? I am curious by nature, but never could even so much as shake my Christmas presents to try to guess what was in the box. It's all about the lead up to it, the anticipation, the excitement as you unwrap, hoping for it to be just what you want, and then the euphoria you feel at that very moment you discover it is just what you wanted it to be......although at the end of some stories and yes presents, it can be a let down, due to finding it is NOT what you wanted it to be.
I remember the Christmas my son was going to propose to his girlfriend. He had me and my hubby go purchase the ring he had already chosen to give to her, and had us keep it at our house so there would be no way she would ever know, he was going to pop the question on Christmas morning at our house. We kept everything under wraps, and Christmas morning he slipped away in the bathroom to let me know they were on their way to get the wrapped ring ready to pass to him when they got here. Our family was so excited we could barely wait for this big event. When they walked in the door, I gave her a hug, and she whispered, "I know what's going on." I looked shocked, and said nothing. When my son thought he was surprising her with the gift/ring I remember thinking....oh how could she already know?. The proposal went off without a hitch, and everyone was so happy, and then she said, "I knew you were going to propose today." He said, "How could you know it." She said, "The bill for the ring came in the mail a few weeks ago and I opened it." To this day she will read the ending of books first, she will go online to know which one the Bachelor/Bachelorette chooses before the show even airs. She prides herself on not waiting and always asks me if I want to know. I always say, "NO!" I call her Snoop dog-dog, because she refuses to wait and be surprised. It can be a bit exhausting and inflating at times because we want so much to share in the excitement of the surprise with her. Over the years she has surprised us many times. I must say my newly daughter in law did pull off a surprise birthday party for her last year, we all enjoyed seeing her shocked! We had to have it days ahead of her actual birthday to accomplish it.
Now getting back to Joan's statement: "A normal child finds violence amusing and is not damaged in the least..
I'm not so sure I agree with this. I have watched many children's movies with my children, and grandchildren through their years of growing up, and the small amount of violence such as just in Star Wars with Darth Vader, affected my son's sleep. The witch in the Wizard of Oz when she melts scared my poor little daughter so much so, that for weeks she would awaken in the night and say she was dreaming of the bad witch. She refused to ever watch it again.
I do agree, Alice in Wonderland the story is not for small children. I feel Carroll was able to tell this story to the young Liddell girls because he had their trust, and he personalized it, giving them a sense of security. I also feel the animation and tone of his voice probably was whimsical and funny telling it to them. Much different than a child reading a story like this by them self. I watched the look on my little ones faces today when the Queen of hearts was yelling..."OFF WITH HER HEAD!" and sensed she was a bit scary to them, and I talked to them about how funny she looked to distract her anger.
Okay off to bed I go....
Ciao for now~
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I've often thought a person was asking for trouble staging an elaborate surprise proposal. What if the answer is no? Pretty embarrassing.
Alice is learning. She manages not to say she eats whiting, though she describes them the way they look to her cooked--crumbs on them, and their tails in their mouths. Here's the recipe:
http://www.erecipe.com/recipe/merlan-frit-en-colere-deep-fried-whiting-1459 (http://www.erecipe.com/recipe/merlan-frit-en-colere-deep-fried-whiting-1459)
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PatH., We were all certain her answer was going to be YES, since she had Bridal catalogues galore, and had circled the ring she wanted and given the page to him months ahead. She left nothing to chance, not to mention they were living together and had my sweet little granddaughter.
Oh my heaves, we got hit with horrible storms last night and my dog was so scared, he kept me up all night long. I feel punch drunk today. Between being woken up I would fall back to sleep and believe it or not was living in Alice's Wonderland, everything was nonsense and the play on words kept running in my dream......I remember parts of it and one that stands out is "believe" being "Bee leave." I just knew this crazy story was going to get to me sooner or later. ::)
Ciao for now~
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such a rich discussion; have been following along, philosophy, articles am so glad I am reading along with this group
just to let you know I am still here
Deb
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Thanks for letting us know, Deb. I'm glad you're enjoying it.
I like that bit about the ring, bellamarie. My feeling is that if something is important to you, you drop really obvious hints, and don't depend on anyone to read your mind.
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There's another example of Alice's feelings that the size changes have changed who she is:
I could tell you my adventures--beginning from this morning, but it's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Oh, I really enjoyed reading that, Pat...I'm running a bit behind the rest of you right now, but will certainly be watching for that change in Alice. Actually, I am noticing a subtle change in her already ....instead of blurting out her thoughts, she seems to be "thinking" more, and keeping her opinions to herself.
Bella, the quote was Carroll's - in which he observed that children are not affected by violence. I imagine the age of the children must be considered. Your three year old granddaughter would be far more horrified than 10 year old Alice at the Queen's call for beheadings. In the context of the silly croquet game, older children would be laughing too hard to take the Queen too seriously. Especially when the Queen called for everyone's
head!
I wasn't sure why the decision of whether or not to execute everyone was left to Alice. Does this indicate a new respect for Alice do you think? And why did Alice choose to leave it up to the Duchess - who greets Alice with affection, calling her a "dear old thing"?
I thought Alice was horrified at the way the Duchess treated the poor baby the last time we saw her. Am I forgetting something?
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http://www.ciffciaff.org/sites/default/files/MockTurtleSmall.png
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JoanP, wasn't it the decision about whether to cut off the head of the Cheshire cat that was left to Alice? I think it's because everyone else was arguing about whether or not you could cut off his head if only the head was visible and Alice had an acquaintance with the cat. The story says:
" The Queen's argument was, that if something wasn't done about it in less than no time she'd have everybody executed, all round. (It was this last remark that had made the whole party look so grave and anxious.)
Alice could think of nothing else to say but 'It belongs to the Duchess: you'd better ask HER about it.' "
The Queen doe seem to defer somewhat to Alice from the beginning and she doesn't threaten her with a head chop. Maybe it's because of Alice's size and the fact that she is a stranger?
Deb, I'm glad you're still around and enjoying the discussion.
Bluebird, I love that illustration of Alice, the mock turtle and gryphon. The colors are so vibrant.
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JoanP.,
Bella, the quote was Carroll's - in which he observed that children are not affected by violence.
With all due respect, I have very little faith in Carroll's judgement for little children, considering his background, with hating little boys, being fixated on innocent little girls, and photographing them naked without their parents. I still question so much about him.
When the Queen shows up while Alice is telling the Cheshire Cat she does not like the Queen, Alice is intimidated by her so much so she stops and pretends she was talking about how good the Queen is in croquet, that it is very likely she will win. The Queen wants everyone to be afraid of her, she is like the schoolyard bully, yelling "Off with their heads!" But she actually does not have the power, since the King actually over rides her, and no one really does ever get beheaded.
Bluebird, The pic of the Gryphon and Mock turtle is a really nice one. I look at it and see the sadness in the Mock turtle, and the concern Alice has for him.
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I found this interesting: http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/alice/section10.rhtml
Analysis
Though the Mock Turtle and the Gryphon initially seem to sympathize with Alice, she soon learns that they do not understand her plight at all. When she first begins talking to them, they seem to be the only creatures in Wonderland that show interest in her bizarre adventures. By using words such as “curious,” “nonsense,” “confusing,” and even “dreadful,” they align themselves with Alice’s attitudes about the strange situations and creatures she has encountered. They seem to see things the way that Alice does and sympathize with her frustration at Wonderland’s backward logic. Alice soon discovers that their feelings are inauthentic. The Gryphon is too detached to identify with Alice, while the Mock Turtle is so sentimental that Alice cannot believe that his feelings are genuine.
Though the Gryphon and the Mock Turtle are unable to relate to Alice, they break the pattern of antagonism that she has experienced thus far in her interactions with the residents of Wonderland. Up to this point, Alice has met creatures that behave contemptuously toward her. Regardless of whether or not their behavior is genuine or insincere, the Mock Turtle and the Gryphon deviate from the rude belligerence that Alice has come to expect from her encounters. They do not argue with each other or with Alice and make the effort to sympathize and connect with Alice. Their behavior breaks a pattern that Alice has become accustomed to, revealing that Wonderland will frustrate every expectation.
Does the fact the Gryphon and the Mock Turtle do not seem as chaotic, and argumentative show Alice is close to the end of her dream? So many times when I have had dreams that make no sense, right before I wake up I find myself trying to put the dream in some type of normal, sense. So, again it makes me wonder, if "we" are actually in control of our dreams or at least in control of some parts of our own dreams.
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I just finished the story and I can't help but see Wonderland, much like Oz. Dorothy wakes up and tells her Aunt and Uncles all about her dream, Alice wakes and tells her sister all about her dream. Like the Wizard and the Fairy Godmother told Dorothy, you could have gone home at anytime, so too, Alice had the power to wake herself up at anytime and return to her reality. So many things in the two stories are so much alike. When I watched the Disney animated movie of Alice in Wonderland that is when I started feeling the sameness as, The Wizard of Oz.
Gotta run be back later... Ciao for now~
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The last two chapters, the court scene, are a little different in style--fewer puns and songs, more narrative, though still fantastic. Maybe Carroll was getting tired.
Interesting comparison, bellamarie. You're right, there are lots of similarities.
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PatH., I agree, I was looking for a really great ending, but it seemed to fizzle out in the last chapters. Do you suppose Carroll got tired? I have to say I like the Disney movie's ending much better than this book's ending.
In the animated movie version, this is what happens:.
The Queen and Alice are playing croquet. The cards keep following the Queen's ball so she is able to score. The Cheshire Cat appears and asks Alice how she is getting on. The Queen can not see the Cheshire Cat because it keeps vanishing. The Cheshire Cat says to Alice, "You know we could make her really angry." Alice says,"NO!" The Cheshire Cat trips the Queen, she gets caught up in her pantaloons, and rolls into the deck of cards, she gets out and says, "Someone's head is going to roll for this." She looks at Alice and says, "YOU! Off with__" and the Kings says, "Couldn't she have a trial?" The White Rabbit reads, Alice is charged with enticing Her Majesty the Queen of Hearts into a game of croquet and teasing, tormenting, and otherwise annoying, and thereby causing the Queen to lose her temper." The trial begins and the March Hare, Dormouse and Mad Hatter are called to testify. The Mad Hatter says, he was home celebrating his unbirthday. The Cheshire Cat lands on the Queen's head, the Dormouse runs out of the teapot, and there is total chaos. Alice hurriedly eats the mushroom in her pocket, she grows large and tells the cards she is not afraid of them. Then she begins to call the Queen a"fat, pompous, bad tempered old tyrant," as she is shrinking smaller and smaller. She realizes she is too small to continue her braveness, and the Cheshire Cat repeats calling the Queen everything Alice did, and the deck of cards and the Queen swarm Alice.
Alice begins to run away, with the Queen and all the deck of cards chasing after her. She runs back through the maze that got her there, reversing her path through her adventure, falls into a cup of tea at the tea party table, swims in the tea, back to the hole in the tree, and says to the doorknob, "I must get out," the doorknob says, "But you are outside, see for yourself." She looks through the keyhole and sees herself sleeping in the grass, the Queen and the cards are running toward her and swarm her and she says, "Alice wake up!" Her sister says, "Alice will you kindly pay attention and recite your lesson." Alice wakes up and recites, "How doth the little crocodile improve his shining tail, and pour the waters...." her sister says, "Alice what are you talking about?", Alice says, Oh, I'm sorry but you see the caterpillar said___, her sister says, "Caterpillar, oh for goodness sake, Alice__come along, it's time for tea."
I liked this ending much better because it has an exciting climax to it. I loved the reversal of her running through her adventure and ending up where she began. I also liked how the Cheshire Cat played a role in antagonizing the Queen, ultimately causing Alice to run for her life, which brings her out of her dream.
I saw a crescent moon in the dark sky that looked exactly like the grin of the Cheshire Cat, I think from now on everytime I see it I will think of the Cheshire Cat.
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Where are chapter 10-12 questions?
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They are up in the heading now, bluebird.
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At the start of this discussion, JoanP put in a link to someone who had made a globe with Alice figures for constellations.
http://globemakers.com/facsimile/globe_alice.html (http://globemakers.com/facsimile/globe_alice.html)
Among other things, the author suggests a zodiac theme to the book. (There are 12 chapters in each of Wonderland and Looking Glass.)
Here are the characters he assigned to each sign:
Aquarious: Mad Hatter
Pisces: fish footman
Aries: sheep from shop
Taurus: Mock Turtle
Gemini: Tweedledum and Tweedledee
Cancer: Crab from Caucus race
Leo: the Lion from the Lion and the Unicorn
Virgo: Alice
Libra: the King of Hearts
Scorpio: the Lobster
Sagittarius: the white knight
Capricorn: the goat in the railway carriage
Now that we've finished Alice in Wonderland, I think he's mistaken. We've met seven of the signs, not six or twelve, and they aren't in order. Of course, he may have mis-assigned the signs; his reasoning is often tenuous. What do you think?
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PatH., Now that is interesting. We would not have met all twelve in Alice in Wonderland, because some of them are in Through the Looking Glass. Although....in the Disney animated movie I watched, all twelve are in it, because there is a blend of both stories in the movie.
While you say, "his reasoning is often tenuous." one thing I can say for certain where Carroll is concerned in writing this nonsensical story is....he left NOTHING to chance. He was a brilliant mathematician, with a mind that seems to have not missed a beat in remembering and using all things possible to create this story, astronomy, theology, poetry, fantasy, mythology, analogy, psychology, etc., etc., etc.
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Absolutely right. Carroll left nothing to chance. The man whose reasoning is tenuous is the one who made the Alice globe, and assigned the characters to zodiac figures. Even If Carroll meant there to be a zodiac connection, the globe-maker could have gotten his assignments wrong.
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http://web.archive.org/web/20110116202839/http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/images/modeng/public/CarAlic/CarAli40.jpg
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I like the Lobster Quadrille.
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"before she had this fit___"
Does that not suggest it was the Queen who stole the tarts, considering all she ever does is throw fits?
I didn't care for this chapter much. It seemed to be hurried along and ended abruptly. Much like our book discussion, as if everyone tired of the story and just fell off. I guess one can get tiring of nothing ever making much sense, when our mind is searching for normal and logic.
I liked the ending in the Disney animated movie much better.
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I too felt that the ending was abrupt and that (after two years working on writing the story), Lewis Carroll just stopped. I guess that Alice had to wake up sometime.
I thought that some of the details in the "court" chapter were fun, such as Alice growing and her skirt upending the jurors and poor little Bill losing his pen and having to write with his finger (which produced nothing) and then getting hit with the inkwell and using the ink on his face to write with his finger.
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I like the Lobster Quadrille.
I like it too. The quadrille is a very complicated dance. It's not surprising that the porpoise stepped on the whiting's tail.
"Will you, won't you, will you won't you, will you join the dance."
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Yes, there are lots of amusing details in the trial scene, but I agree that as a whole, it's kind of a let-down.
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PatH., and Marcie, I want to thank you both for doing a great job as administrators for this discussion. Since it was my first time ever reading the book and watching any adaption movie of this story, I really enjoyed delving deep into the background of Lewis Carroll, and the depth of our discussion.
While I would never allow my young daughter be with someone like Carroll, I realize things were different in the 1800's, making their relationship more acceptable. Not that it makes a difference where I am concerned. I would love to have been able to know what caused the rift between Carroll, and the Liddell family that broke all contact with them. I would also love to know what he wrote in the letters to Alice, that caused her mother to destroy them. And of course, I can't help but wonder why all the paintings, other than a few of the young naked innocent girls were destroyed, once he died. If it was "art" then why destroy them? I guess these are things I will always think about when I hear the name Lewis Carroll, or someone mention the movie/story of Alice In Wonderland.
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Yes, bellamarie, these questions always lurk in the background when analyzing Carroll, and it's a balancing act sorting out this stuff when trying to think about the work. It's good on its own merits, and lots of bits of it are part of our cultural background. I want to thank you for all the hard work you put into analyzing things. You added so much to the discussion.
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I want to thank everyone for joining us. All of us together have analyzed this book in a surprising way. I never realized how many references there were to poems, fads, current books, etc, that are lost on us. And I hadn't noticed all the mathematical logic. Thanks also to all who watched on the sidelines. It's nice to know you're there.
We aren't going to discuss Through the Looking Glass, but i suspect most of us will read it. If you want, we can keep the discussion open a while for any comments you choose to make.
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I will read Through The Looking Glass.
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So will I.
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Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion, even if just to read with us. I always learn more than if I read alone.
I'm going to read LOOKING GLASS too!
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I'll be reading Looking Glass too - so better prepared than I was for starting Alice - so many insightful posts here! I have to admit, I haven't been able to finish Alice yet...am still tangled up withe the lobsters in that quadrille.
After dealing with surprising medical news shortly after beginning Alice, I am happy to share that everything is under control now and am looking forward to the our next discussion - and finishing Alice, while following your comments in this archived discussion.
Many thanks to Marcie and Pat for leading loyal readers through the sometimes puzzling and disturbing aspects of this tale! Thank you all!
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JoanP., Glad all is under control.
I have begun reading Through the Looking Glass. Have to admit I will take my time since we won't be discussing it.
Again, thank you for all the insights in all the posts. Jonathan, if you are lurking, hope you made it out of the rabbit hole........ until our next discussion.
Ciao for now~
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What an experience! I'm sorry it's over. A lot of crazy circumstances kept me sidelined for most of the discussion, but it has been fascinating to follow it from that viewpoint. And what a surprise to hear what has been made of the book over the years. How did 'Alice' think about it later in life? She looks very thoughtful in the picture of her, in the photo gallery posted by Bluebird early on. On the left, eight rows down, if I remember correctly. Was HRH Victoria annoyed by the poor image of the queen? How many contemporaries recognized themselves in one or another of the animals? Does the modern reader recognize a friend or two?
The book has certainly awakened an interest in dreams, and I think I've found a book that might supply some answers. The History of Last Night's Dream: Discovering the Hidden Path to the Soul, by Rodger Kamenetz. Lately my dreams have been over the edge. Speaking as an old man, I must say they are radically different than the visions of my youth. Do we acquire more soul as we get older?
God bless you all.
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PatH and Marcie thank you for book club Alice in wonderland.
Jonathan, thank you for the book The history of last night's dream. I will read that one day.
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have been up in Sudbury, Ontario for the past week ... about a three hour trip from our home seeing a friend who is not doing very well in hospital....glad you left the the posting open for me to thank you for an interesting discussion, am going to look into the groups that seem to be very keen on Alice and other books by the author....love his sense of humour and out of the ordinary quirks in the book....thank you Marcie and PatH ...knowing the story would not have picked up the book otherwise am sure.
all the best everyone
Deb
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Jonathan, I had to go to Amazon to check out the book you recommended. I always read the reviews of others who have read a book I am interested in and I found this review interesting:
9 of 20 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Beware, July 18, 2009
By Captain Caution (Burlington, Vt.) - See all my reviews
This review is from: The History of Last Night's Dream: Discovering the Hidden Path to the Soul (Hardcover)
Beware, The books by this group are not simply a discussion about dream therapy. I've had the opportunity to observe this group for some time. Over the past couple years they have worked to create a doctrine, form a false religion around it, and even refer to it as a "church". This group operates in every manner as a cult with a leader who is unquestioned and unaccountable to anyone and claims that "Christ" entered him while climbing a mountain high on LSD. Believe me it doesn't end there as almost everything they put forth is bizarre and beyond ridiculous. Furthermore, almost all of the positive comments put forth in these reviews are from members of this group, which is easily confirmed by visiting their website. If you are someone looking for a book on dreamwork or interpretation I would recommend finding something else. If you are someone seeking spiritual growth I would recommend finding a real church that follows the true word of God.
Rodger Kamenetz is a gifted writer. This is the only thing that even makes this book readable when compared to the rest of the stuff this group puts out. I also don't believe that Rodger is connected to the core of this group but it's a shame he got caught up with them at all. He may not even be aware of the details concerning the formation of this group and their doctine, which has reached new levels in the last couple years. Still, when you align yourself with a group essentially you have endorsed all of their beliefs. I doubt Rodger reads too much of the stuff they put out but he may want to and rethink his position.
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http://www.amazon.com/The-History-Last-Nights-Dream/product-reviews/0061237949/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop/190-0301732-2931756?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R1JC4H553R6QB3
Of course there are many who gave it better reviews.
I have been having very confusing dreams lately, so I suppose it would be fun to examine them.
Ciao for now~
Ciao for now~
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15
Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll
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Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll.
We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.
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Discussion Schedule:
April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2
April 21-27 Chapters 3 - 6
April 28 - May 5 Chapters 7 - 9
May 6 - May 11 Chapters 10 - 12
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Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.
April 28 - May 5 Chapter 7 - 9
Chapter 7:
1. Why would madness be characteristic of hatters?
2. What is a dormouse?
3. Carroll originally didn't have an answer to the riddle of the raven and the writing desk, but many have been suggested since, Do you have one?
4. What do you think of the surreal version of time pictured here?
5. Who are Elsie, Lacie, and Tillie?
6. This chapter is full of puns; do you have any favorites?
7. The hare and the hatter are supposed to be mad. Do they seem any crazier than anyone else?
8. How does Alice finally get into the garden?
Chapter 8:
1. How do the suits and values of the cards fit their occupations and stations in life?
2. “Off with their head” is the Queen of Hearts’ reaction to everything. How come any of them are left alive?
3. What do you think of the croquet game? Could it actually be possible to play it?
4. Could one behead a bodiless creature?
Chapter 9:
1. Does everything have a moral?
2. How does the King undo the Queen’s harshness?
3. What is a mock turtle? A gryphon?
4. The mock turtle’s story is full of puns. Can you identify them?
5. What could logically happen on the twelfth day?
Chapter 10:
1. What are your impressions of the Lobster-Quadrelle?
2. What lines stand out for you in the parody of "The Sluggard" in this chapter or any of the alternative versions you may have read?
Chapter 11:
1. What are some details in this "court" chapter that you find especially amusing/interesting?
Chapter 12:
1. What do you think of the "evidence" in this chapter?
2. What are your thoughts about the end of the story?
Have you seen any film adaptations of the story?
You can read the novel online (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11)
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net) and Marcie (marciei@aol.com)
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Deb, it's great that you are pursuing your interest in Lewis Carroll. Let us know in the FICTION discussion or the LIBRARY if you find something you'd like to share in the future.