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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online Will you join us?
The Hot Zone: A Terrifying True Story
by Richard Preston
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hotzone/hotzonecover.jpg) |
It reads like a detective thriller, but it's a true story--how the Ebola virus was discovered, and what happened when it turned up in a research lab just a few miles from Washington, DC.
"When Richard Preston's novel "The Hot Zone" was published in 1995, it was, for many, their first introduction to the deadly Ebola and Marburg viruses.
Nearly two decades later, Ebola has infected hundreds of people in three countries across West Africa, in what is considered the worst outbreak in history. As fear over the deadly virus grows, we need a reminder of what we learned so long ago from Preston." British Broadcasting Corporation BBC
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DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PART ONE: The Shadow of Mount Elgon
Nov. 1 - 5~ First three chapters--Something in the Forest, Jumper, Diagnosis (Africa, 1980)
Nov. 6-9~ Next three chapters--A Woman and a Soldier, Project Ebola, Total Immersion (Maryland, 1983)
For Your Consideration
Nov. 1-5
1. Do the vivid descriptions of the amazing African scenery add to the feeling of horror? Do they make you want to visit Africa?
2. What was Charles Monet like as a person?
3. Do you know of other caves like Kitum elsewhere? Are they reservoirs of disease?
4. Does the very detailed, dramatic description of the disease add to or subtract from the story for you?
5. What is the relationship of Marburg and Ebola?
6. How could the first outbreak of Marburg, in 1967, have been prevented?
7. Which interests you more--the human story or the scientific one?
RELEVANT LINKS:
Prediscussion (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4472.40)
BBC Ebola Primer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28754546)
Mt. Elgon National Park (http://ugandawildlife.org/explore-our-parks/parks-by-name-a-z/mount-elgon-national-park)
Discussion Leader: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net )
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Welcome, everyone; at last we can start in on the book. Here’s where it all began, where this cluster of diseases first made its way into the history books. Preston paints a colorful backdrop for his story. There’s a link to Mount Elgon National Park in the heading, to give you some pictures.
Let’s settle in and start.
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Wow, a day early. But I'm ready to go.
Preston has a way of making you feel the lives of the characters in the story, doesn't he? And feeling what it must have been like. That's what kept me reading into the night, but being a science nerd, I was also interested in the scientific explanations.
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Being a birdwatcher, I identified with the solitary nature lover, living in the shadow of the mountain.
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Only a third of a day on this coast.
Happy Hallowe'en. :D
Boo.
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I've read a few chapters in the book and they are quite appropriate for Halloween. Drama, thrills, frightening, terrible. Rather like a monster out to get us all.
The map is helpful isn't it? And, yes, I would love to go to Africa; however, my traveling days are over, but Cindy, my daughter, went on safari in Kenya. Beautiful pictures, a couple of the Masai.
And we thought HIV was a horrible disease, but not near as lethal as Ebola, did you get that impression?
Taking your Christmas vacation camping on a mountain, all strange isn't it? I was interested in the "old, half-ruined English colonial farms hidden behind lines of blue- gum trees." Wouldn't you like to know of the history of those farms. I wonder if the natives remember those days, coffee plantations or sugar?
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I'm loving the book, so far in the first three chapters. I love the way it starts, we have passage into a dangerous security level... I love it. He and his brother Douglas Preston can really write.
So much to discuss in these first chapters. I agree with Ella, such interesting depictions. I loved the descriptions of Africa, all those places we've read about all these years. And I agree with Joan K that the way Monet (ironic, huh) was portrayed made me very sympathetic to his plight.
I read the book outside in this fine fall weather which seemed to make the descriptions of Africa really alive, and so much enjoyed reading about Monet's peregrinations thru the countryside. I was astounded that he also kept moving while all inside him was going to pieces, too, right into the ER in the last stages, that was very impressive and somewhat frightening. The symptoms are very useful to know. I found the descriptions of the working of the virus somewhat similar to reading Nulund's How We Die, actually, tho of course a lot more dramatic as it's due to a killer disease. Even tho it was graphic it seemed somewhat detached.
In answer to question 1, instead of making me want to go to Africa for some reason it makes me want to get out there and start power walking. I don't know why.
I've been wondering the whole time about the cover. What is that on the cover? Is it explained in the last of the three chapters, Diagnosis, when they begin to talk about Marburg and the Ebola sisters? It can't be the virus Marburg as it doesn't look like spaghetti, or cheerios, right? So what IS it? Which Ebola ARE we talking about, Zaire (wasn't that scary? The death rate is unbelievable)...or Sudan? Or something else? How about the one in 2014, which is it?
So what IS that thing on the cover? Can that be seen under a microscope? I'm sure everybody except me knows this, but I'd like to know.
And I wonder about the 10 day survival rate of the Ebola virus without a host, stated in the paperback. I underlined it and now can't find it but I will ...this book is not new, what if anything has been learned/changed since that time? And monkeys. And AIDS. There is so much here to wonder at and discuss.
Super choice for a book discussion, it really is.
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Now I can't find where the book says it, but the thing on the cover is virus particles coming out of a cell. The stringy things are the virus, and the round green blob is the cell. I don't know if it's a drawing or a microscope picture, but I bet the colors are arbitrary.
Good point about the book being old. It was written in 1994, and some of it's events are still older. So the characters don't always know as much as Preston did when writing, and Preston didn't know as much as is known now. We'll have to keep that in mind as we read. It's the developing history of the disease, and the people trying to fight it, so the information is accurate but not complete.
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After I read about the mass coming from _____________, one of the victims, I thought the cover was meant to be the spaghetti vomit - not pleasant to discuss but Preston does, over and over with his descriptions of the virus in its victims.
The Monet story is terribly graphic and yet lovely in its descriptions of Africa - - this is not West Africa and the countries that we are concerned with at present.
"The lower slopes of the mountain are washed with gentle rains, and the air remains cool and fresh all year, and the volcanic soil produces rich crops of corn.
Monet was 56 in this story, I wonder how long he had lived a solitary life - Preston suggests he might have been in trouble in France or just was moved to live there because of the beauty of the place. I imagine he made decent money as a mechanic also.
Yes, GINNY - (good to see you here) much to discuss and I am loving the book too, telling friends. Might buy a copy for our library here.
I have a cave story to tell; but not near as big as Kitum case. It holds 70 elephants, wow! The only elephant I have ever seen has been in zoos. I would love to see them out in the open, they seem like big, gentle animals to me.
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The update to KITUM cave:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitum_Cave
It is thought that the Marburg virus is caused by inhalation of the bat guano. Not proven yet? Let the bats have the caves, STAY AWAY.
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I wouldn't care to go into an enclosed space where 70 elephants might follow me, and caves give me claustrophobia, but I couldn't help longing to see the crystalline petrified forest.
Ella, are you going to tell us your cave story?
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This is interesting from the article ELLA posted:
"In September 2007, similar expeditions to active mines in Gabon and Uganda found solid evidence of reservoirs of Marburg in cave-dwelling Egyptian fruit bats. The Ugandan mines both had colonies of the same species of African fruit bats that colonize Kitum Cave, suggesting that the long-sought vector at Kitum was indeed the bats and their guano."
The book by Q that I read puts an emphasis on trying to find what he calls the "reservoir species" (apparently what's called the "vector" above). This is where the virus is living when there is NOT an outbreak of ebola.
Since the disease appears, dies out, and reappears later, there must be somewhere where it is lurking: an animal host that can carry the virus from generation to generation. We humans can contain an outbreak, but unless we find this "reservoir host", we can never prevent another outbreak. It's assumed that it's a small animal: bird, bat, insect, that has some contact with the monkeys that are known to carry it. Lots of experiments have looked for traces of the virus in thousands of species. I don't remember results as positive as the article suggests.
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Just in from birthday party in NC - and on the way out for another one in an hour. But wanted to peek in to say how much I'm enjoying your posts! So much here to think about!
I agree the map in the front of the book was helpful - except it frightened this mother of her youngest son who is having the time of his life living in Africa for the next two years. Each weekend he's out in the wild...fishing in the river, filming hippos, elephants in the wild...and oh, the monkeys. He loves the monkeys. He has been reassuring me that the Ebola breakout is up in West Africa - far from Zambia where he lives. But the map! Do you see Zambia on Preston's map? The map brings the volcano and the cave so much closer to where he is living - and camping! Which of you would rest until this adventurer returns home!?
(http://www.seniorlearn.net/bookclubs/hotzone/ZambiaWill.jpg)
(http://www.seniorlearn.net/bookclubs/hotzone/Zambiamonkeys.JPG)(http://www.seniorlearn.net/bookclubs/hotzone/Zambiamonkey2.JPG)
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Pat - thank you for your clear description of the object, the virus on the front cover of Preston's book. I'm surprised he didn't reference it in his notes on the book, weren't you?
I found this magnified picture of Ebola Zaire - I think that's exactly what it is...
http://books.google.com/books?id=8VzvrNj8W2gC&pg=PA368&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
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JoanP, thanks for posting those pictures. Your son is very good-looking, and sure looks like Africa agrees with him. Here's something to ease your worries a bit. In the heading on this page there is a link labeled BBC Ebola Primer. This is a link, kindly supplied by Pedln, to a site that's a goldmine of information. There is a link "Mapping the Outbreak". If you go there and scroll down, you see a map of all deaths up to the time of the link. The closest it gets to Zambia is Nigeria, which on the map in your picture is the purple country just above the angle where the coastline turns from east-west to north-south. That's where it is now, and it's pretty far away, but even the places Preston is talking about aren't that close to Zambia.
The link has all sorts of good stuff in it, if you follow its many pathways.
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Pat - thank you for your clear description of the object, the virus on the front cover of Preston's book. I'm surprised he didn't reference it in his notes on the book, weren't you?
It's mentioned somewhere in the book; that's how I know what it is, but I sure can't find it now.
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Hello November, oh how I can see this month flying by with Thanksgiving, my hubby's birthday, Christmas shopping for six grandchildren, and discussing Ebola.
What I found very interesting in the first chapters is when Charles Monet contracted the virus, not knowing of course he had it, how many different people could have been infected by his travels to his final death. I am reading this on my ipad and I was trying to highlight each place he went, possibly infecting hundreds of people, since his symptoms were present with body fluids being released all over the places he went, from the plane to the ER, and in the room he was treated in.
They had no idea what was wrong with him, so there was no need to protect themselves while treating him, as we now know it is imperative, and without protocol and quarantine, it can be deadly.
I am still annoyed with this nurse refusing to quarantine herself. Watching her out bike riding and then speaking with the media, smiling, it's as though she is liking all the publicity she is getting.
http://www.liveebolamap.com/quarantined-ebola-nurse-kaci-hickox-defies-orders-stay-home-goes-bike-ride/
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Thanks, Pat. I did go to the link in the heading to track the latest Ebola breakouts. I see there that the first report of Ebola in Sierra Leone was in March, 2014. I have to tell you that my Will was visiting in Sierra Leone in November, 2013. His father had been in the Peace Corps there many years ago - Will visited the school where Bruce taught. Can you believe that he and his Annelies were considering working there for two years...but Annelies was passed over for the position - and that's how they ended up in Zambia!
OK, so they are not near the current breakouts right now. I do feel better about that now.
BUT just now I read your post, JoanK!
"Since the disease appears, dies out, and reappears later, there must be somewhere where it is lurking: an animal host that can carry the virus from generation to generation. We humans can contain an outbreak, but unless we find this "reservoir host", we can never prevent another outbreak."
Does Preston leave the impression that the source is Mt. Elgon - or Lake Victoria? Kitum Cave?
Thanks for the cave site, Ella Sounds like just the thing that would attract my Will!
(http://www.seniorlearn.net/bookclubs/hotzone/Zambiaelephants.JPG)
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OK, I promise not to dwell on my son's proximity to danger - real or imagined. It won't bring him home.
Charles Monet - the expatriate loner Frenchman who knows nothing of the danger lurking - everywhere. Will try to concentrate on him. Ginny, I got the impression that Monet died from the Marburg virus, not Ebola - wasn't that the Diagnosis Dr. Silverstein came up with? I might be wrong. To me it sounded like Marburg because after Monet vomited into the doctor's mouth - he survived! Sounds like Marburg with a kill rate of 1/4, while the Ebola is 1/9 for something like that - don't you think?
Maybe he'll move into the Ebola virus (what's the plural? Viruses?) in later chapters...
Pat, will you let us know as soon as you find the identity of the virus on the cover?
I read Preston's very recent New Yorker article on the Ebola virus. It is said that he will follow this with another book. I also read that before he wrote The Hot Zone, he had written an article for the New Yorker about The Hot Zone in 1992 too. I'll see if I can find it...you might have to subscribe to the New Yorker.
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You're right, JoanP, Monet died of Marburg. It's part of the same family of viruses as Ebola, filoviruses, and is closely related. We'll get more explanation as the book goes on.
Charles Monet is a pseudonym, as Preston explains in the introduction. (There are a couple of others, and they are explained when the characters appear.) For me, it's an unfortunate choice; I keep thinking of him as Claude. :(
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JoanP, I'm with you about our intrepid travellers. Let's keep them on this side of the pond. That being said, when are you and Bruce going to visit Zambia?
I've read these first chapters twice - kept turning my head away during the second reading. Stephen King thought it pretty scary too.
"In regard to just the first chapter of “The Hot Zone,” Stephen King called it “one of the most horrifying things I’ve read in my whole life – and then it gets worse."
I keep going back to the book, our discussion and all over the web. That raises so many questions, but also so many interesting things. And all the while, I trying to connect the book itself with things that are happening today. Right now it seems like there was a big knowledge gap between 1970 and now. Will Preston show us what transpired between 1970 and 1994 when his book was published? I want to read that New YOrker article if I can get hold of it.
I've been trying to find out more about Dr. Sheth Musoke who treated Monet. From the little I"ve found he's still at the Nairobi Hospital (2011).
I hate the blame game that is so frequently played about everything. How do you feel about "Mr. Jones," who wonders if some of those Marburg deaths are on his back?
What is the difference between Marburg and Ebola? Are they equally dangerous? Do we treat them the say way?
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Preston will eventually take us through pretty much all of what transpired up to the 1994, by which time a lot more was known than in these opening chapters, much closer to our present knowledge. We can then fill in, via articles and other books.
Marburg and Ebola are very similar viruses, part of the same small family, and they produce similar diseases. Marburg is a little milder than the most dangerous of the several strains of Ebola. The treatment for both is mostly symptomatic--prompt replacement of the fluids and electrolytes lost, and maintaining nutrition by some means. Some of the current patients have been given an experimental drug (we've now run out of it) or serum from people who have recovered from the virus, but it's uncertain how much this helps. It is becoming clear, though that state-of-the-art treatment in a well-equipped hospital reduces the mortality considerably.
I found it interesting and encouraging that the patients who recover do so completely. Dr. Musoke wasn't impaired, and continued his practice.
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Preston hops back and forth in telling his story. We've seen some Marburg patients in 1980, with a flashback to its first appearance in 1967. Next we'll have a brief interlude in this country in 1983, then back to Africa for the discovery of Ebola in 1976, and another outbreak of Marburg in 1987.
That takes us up to the episode that will be heart of the book.
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I agree with Stephen King - I was horrified to read some of these stories. The last sentence in the Monet chapter:
"Having destroyed its host, the agent is now coming out of every orifice, and is 'trying ' to find a new host."
It's out to get us!
Already, " it" has found its way to America and found a few hosts.
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My cave story - as members of a national organization called American Yousth Hostel, 6 to 60, we did a lot of canoeing and kaying - YEARS AND YEARS AGO.
One of the fellows knew a guide to a cave in Kentucky called Carter Cave and off we went for an adventure exploring the cave, which had a lot of rooms, a lot of bats clinging to the walls and some flying around, and we spent a night and ate breakfast in it the next morning.
I would never do it again, it was very frightening to be in a cave where no daylight, twilight, sky or stars can be seen - total darkness. You had to feel the floor to be sure there was something under your feet. Of course, the guide had a lantern - all of us were required to have 3 different lights on us, such as flashlights, matches, etc. but at night - OH!!
"When elephants walk through the cave at night, they navigate by thei sense of touch, probing the floor ahead of them with the tips of their trunks."
Exactly!
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Yikes, Ella, that cave story is as scary as the book, and you with no trunk. ;) At least you didn't have the crevice with the dead baby elephants.
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A scarey story, Ella! I can understand why you never went caving again! The only caving I ever did was in Luray Caverns in VA. Sissy stuff - they had electricity underground! Miles of caverns - all lit up! :D
When my sons were Boy Scouts, they went a number of times...well-outfitted - I remember little lamps attached to their headgear. They were with experienced leaders and I didn't worry about their safety, although I shivered at their descriptions of the bats hanging from the formations on the ceiling, and how close they came to them as they lowered themselves into the dark (unlit) caves. It was after the Boy Scouting days - when they felt they knew enough, that they went off on their own to unexplored caves...How easily they could have gotten lost underground in the dark! Of course I never knew about these little expeditions until after the fact. I guess these were my scarey cave stories.
So Mt. Elgon - now a National Park? I went to the site in the heading to look up CAVING -
Caves
"Mount Elgon’s slopes are riddled with caves left by moving lava and erosion of soft volcanic deposits. The most accessible are Kapkwai Cave, near the Forest Exploration Centre, and Khauka Cave on Wanale Ridge. Historically, such features acted as shelters for locals and their livestock; later on they provided manure in the form of bat droppings. More recently, they were used by climbers and their porters, and even today, campsites are still located at Hunters Cave, Siyo Cave (near the hot springs), Mude Cave and Tutum Cave – ideal for overnight expeditions" -
Wasn't this where Charles (Claude) Monet spent the night before coming down with Marburg? Possibly where the virus lurked - (lurks?) Am I missing something? Why isn't this discouraged?
An interesting question, Pat..."How could the first outbreak of Marburg, in 1967, have been prevented?"
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He was in Kitum Cave, and you notice they don't mention it, even though it's probably reasonably accessible, since Monet got to it easily enough. That website is stingy with its pictures, but there are enough to give you the feel of the weird, fascinating African landscape.
JoanP, it's probably just as well you didn't know about those caving expeditions ahead of time. Since the boys survived, it was probably good for them, but I would have been very nervous indeed. Caving brings out my inner claustrophobia.
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I was delighted when Beryl Markham was mentioned in the chapter DIAGNOSIS. She is the author of WEST WITH THE NIGHT - a wonderful memoir. If you can find it, do read it. I have a copy of it and every once inawhile I pick it up again. What a woman!
I never thought of viruses being named for the place where they are first discovered and I can't think of any virus, at the moment, that has a name - what??? Bult isn't it interesting that Marburg is named for an old city in central Germany and the virus first erupted there in 1967.
They imported monkeys for research purposes and this is where the "agent jumped species and suddenly emerged in the human population of the city. This is an example of virus amplification.
Now where and when can I use that phrase, I would feel so learned.
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JOANP, your boys had the same experience and probably enjoyed it very much. Some do.......... And I hope you get that good looking son of yours home shortly. Do you "skype?" Am I using that word correctly; I've never done anything like that just know of it.
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Ah, Ella! Beryl Markham - WHAT A GAL! WHAT A LIFE! Makes you wonder what you are doing with yours when there is so much to explore!
Beryl Markham - "There is her beautifully imagined memoir, ''West With the Night,'' published by Houghton Mifflin in 1942 when she was 40 years old, a triumph of adventure writing, set largely in Africa, which Hemingway called ''bloody wonderful,'' conceding, ''this girl . . . can write rings around all of us.''
But he was right about her ability to capture the feel of Africa and write about it in voluptuous detail in a way he never could. After all, Markham had grown up wild and motherless in Africa, living close to the land and animals, spending most of her childhood in the constant company of local tribes. She was the only white female permitted to hunt with the male warriors, and could handle a spear as well as a rifle. "
Read more....
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/08/23/books/a-high-life-and-a-wild-one.html
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ps Yes we SKYPe, Ella - several times a week. Video, audio communication...clear as a bell - and it's FREE! Never ceases to amaze. Then we have an APP called Whatsapp - an international texting service - that's free too. And there is something called FACETIME - we can communicate face to face on our phones. That's FREE too! Should that be enough for the mother? For one thing - it doesn't work when he's out in the wild...has to be in wifi range or a tower or something...
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"He was in Kitum Cave, and you notice they don't mention it, even though it's probably reasonably accessible." Pat
That's the thing, Pat. The cave might still be open...other cavers like my son could explore at any time, right? Also those other caves in the vicinity...might they not harbor the same virus? To me, that's the really frightening aspect of the virus.
So Monet had the Marburg virus...not quite as contagious, or lethal as the Ebola...although it did kill him, his doctor managed to come through. Does Preston mention what sort of treatment Dr. Musoke received?
We read how Monet's brain was consumed by the virus...we read how the first sign of the virus was (is) the dreadful headaches. Doesn't that mean that the virus has infected the brain? Dr. Musoke began with these headaches. How was Dr. Silverstein able to stop the virus from consuming his brain?
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As I understand it, there are three "filovirus" - sisters. One is named Ebola Zaire, the most dangerous of the three; Ebola Sudan and Marburg, which is the mildest.
Has anyone heard about these before? For example which strain did the man from Africa that came to the US (was his name Duncan?) have and did the two nurses have the same?
And how about that village of Kasenseto, near Lake Victoria, where the first cases of AIDS appeared? We were all rather frightened of that when it came out - am I correct that the first case in the media was from a movie star in Paris who was a homosexulal and it did become, more or less, a homosexual disease. A distant relative's brother had it, we met him once. Sad.
JOANP, did Dr. Silverstein have Marburg? I must go back and read a bit.
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JOANP - I hope your young son is not a fisherman; regardless tell him to stay away from Lake Victoria, seems a deadly place when I read a few articles about it. I must ask Cindy if she saw the lake on her trip - she was mainly in Kenya and she has wonderful pictures of the environs. Knowing she would never go back (it's expensive) she spent a lot of time there and took loads of pictures.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lake+victoria&biw=1110&bih=715&tbm=isch&imgil=ZEgpDkMlTkVBJM%253A%253B3UU5Q7s49QmrNM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.kampalasun.com%25252Fconservation%25252Flake-victorias-top-predator.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ZEgpDkMlTkVBJM%253A%252C3UU5Q7s49QmrNM%252C_&usg=__GKi9zcSjDtmiPJ2NvG0fTNtdnho%3D&ved=0CDgQyjc&ei=siBZVKrlOIz-yQT64YGADw#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=ZEgpDkMlTkVBJM%253A%3B3UU5Q7s49QmrNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.kampalasun.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2014%252F01%252FLake-Victoria.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.kampalasun.com%252Fconservation%252Flake-victorias-top-predator.html%3B500%3B334
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Dr. Musoke began with these headaches. How was Dr. Silverstein able to stop the virus from consuming his brain?
My impression is, that although the disease often starts with a headache, the actual brain damage occurs quite late in the disease. Everyone Preston describes as recovering seems to have no residual damage.
As I understand it, there are three "filovirus" - sisters. One is named Ebola Zaire, the most dangerous of the three; Ebola Sudan and Marburg, which is the mildest.
That's about right, although now more than three strains have been discovered. Everyone in the current outbreak is infected with Ebola Zaire. I had certainly heard of Ebola before, in the previous outbreaks, and a lot about the Maryland incident that is the heart of the book, but hadn't bothered to learn enough to know about the different strains.
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ELLA: lovely pictures. I've always heard of Lake Victoria as a tourist location, and I see it is.
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JOANK - and all. Beautiful pictures of Lake Victoria at sunset - keep scrolling down. Can't believe these colors, wow!
http://www.africa-expert.com/about-kenya/the-great-lakes/lake-victoria/
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Way before the current ebola scare, we had universal precautions in place in the hospital. Basically we treated every patient as potentially contagious. We wore gloves for any procedure that would potentially place caregivers in contact with body fluids. Handwashing was a must before and after every contact with a patient. I realize that in Africa when Charles Monet was there, there were no precautions taken. All I could think of when I read the very graphic descriptions of his illness and symptoms was how many people he could have infected. It is no mystery that ebola is not controlled in certain parts of Africa. They just don't have the resources and supplies to effectively prevent it from spreading. I hope the hysteria that is developing here in the US doesn't get so out of control that caregivers are prevented from going there to help.
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Here is a recent New York Times article which describes the difference having adequate resources for treatment makes to the outcome:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/01/us/better-staffing-seen-as-crucial-to-ebola-treatment-in-africa.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C%7B%221%22%3A%22RI%3A7%22%7D (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/01/us/better-staffing-seen-as-crucial-to-ebola-treatment-in-africa.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C%7B%221%22%3A%22RI%3A7%22%7D)
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And here is one saying that the epidemic is slowing in Liberia, but we aren't sure yet what that means:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/30/world/africa/ebola-liberia-who.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C%7B%221%22%3A%22RI%3A7%22%7D&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/30/world/africa/ebola-liberia-who.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C%7B%221%22%3A%22RI%3A7%22%7D&_r=0)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online Will you join us?
The Hot Zone: A Terrifying True Story
by Richard Preston
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hotzone/hotzonecover.jpg) |
It reads like a detective thriller, but it's a true story--how the Ebola virus was discovered, and what happened when it turned up in a research lab just a few miles from Washington, DC.
"When Richard Preston's novel "The Hot Zone" was published in 1995, it was, for many, their first introduction to the deadly Ebola and Marburg viruses.
Nearly two decades later, Ebola has infected hundreds of people in three countries across West Africa, in what is considered the worst outbreak in history. As fear over the deadly virus grows, we need a reminder of what we learned so long ago from Preston." British Broadcasting Corporation BBC
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DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PART ONE: The Shadow of Mount Elgon
Nov. 1 - 5~ First three chapters--Something in the Forest, Jumper, Diagnosis (Africa, 1980)
Nov. 6-9~ Next three chapters--A Woman and a Soldier, Project Ebola, Total Immersion (Maryland, 1983)
Nov 10-13~ Last three chapters--Ebola River(Africa, 1976), Cardinal(Africa, 1987), Going Deep
PART TWO: The Monkey House
For Your Consideration
Nov. 6-9
1. We are going to see a number of people risking their lives, either for research or patient care. Do you understand their mindset? Can you see yourself doing this?
2. What do you think of the Jaax family lifestyle?
3. What problems did Nancy Jaax have because she was a woman? How did she handle them?
RELEVANT LINKS:
Prediscussion (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4472.40)
BBC Ebola Primer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28754546)
Mt. Elgon National Park (http://ugandawildlife.org/explore-our-parks/parks-by-name-a-z/mount-elgon-national-park)
Discussion Leader: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net )
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I've been puzzled about the Ebola Zaire virus - and the cure rate. In Preston's book, he writes the kill rate of Ebola Zaire is 9 of 10 and the Marburg virus 1of 4.
And now we are hearing of the 7 of 8 persons to survive the virus in the US as well as fewer cases in West Africa - in Liberia anyway.
How to explain this?
Those two articles you just posted are most helpful, Pat. -
"Doctors say the key to surviving Ebola, and what has saved the patients in the United States, has been a higher level of “supportive care” to treat deadly symptoms like severe fluid loss and organ failure. That means the patients received intravenous fluids and salts to replace what they lost through vomiting and diarrhea, a fluid loss that can reach five to 10 quarts a day during the worst phase
Fluid replacement is done routinely for all sorts of illnesses in the United States, he said."
Hysteria tells us "way before the current ebola scare, we had universal precautions in place in the hospital."
Apparently not true in Africa...
“It’s much more challenging in Africa.”Dr. Bruce S. Ribner, who directed the care of patients evacuated to Emory University Hospital in Atlanta, said his medical team was surprised at the amount of fluid and potassium lost, and alerted doctors at treatment centers in Africa that patients there might need more replenishment than expected.
He also mentioned that some of the sickest patients in the United States were saved by ventilators and kidney dialysis. Those treatments are not available in the field hospitals in West Africa where Ebola is being treated."
...so how to explain the declining numbers of cases now? Does anyone know that?
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"Did Dr. Silverstein have Marburg? I must go back and read a bit. Ella
As far as I can tell, he did not, Ella. It was the young Dr. Musoke who treated Charles Monet, who contracted it. I was certain that Dr. Musoke was going to die after that exposure. Dr. Musoke's doctor was Dr. Silverstein - who had never heard of Marburg. (Most didn't.) Dr. Silberstein did research and then brought him back - Did Preston's book say how he managed to do that?
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Monet and Musoke both had Marburg. Silverstein gave Musoke the best care he could, but the book doesn't say, probably because no one knows, just how come Musoke managed to fight the disease off. You're right, JoanP, Silverstein didn't get sick.
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PatH: very interesting. trolled around in the references, and found this: If you like statistics, this is the article for you.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/31/world/africa/ebola-virus-outbreak-qa.html?action=click&contentCollection=US%20Open®ion=Article&module=Promotron
Gives a lot of detailed facts about ebola, including all the cases in the US and Europe. All of the US cases have recovered except Mr. Duncan.
Of the 700 workers that Doctors without Borders has sent to the area, only three have contracted ebola.
Also shows the number of treatment centers planned by WHO. Given the problems with staffing PatH's article mentioned, I don't know if it's a reality, though.
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Treatment centers: a newspaper article I can't find now says that if the cases continue to decline in Liberia, they will probably set up more, smaller (but expandable) centers. Don't know if that will mean fewer staff or not. Staff is certainly the bottleneck.
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According to the schedule, we start on the next section tomorrow--three chapters, as listed in the heading--and it looks like we're ready. Of course we can continue to say things about this section, too, and talk about the current news. It's worth thinking--what have we learned from the book so far, and what have we learned from current news and our fellow discussers.
This section is quick-moving, and four days should be enough, but we can extend it if necessary.
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I went to the doctor today, and a sign was posted on the clinic door stating that if you have traveled to Africa to please wear a mask and tell the receptionist. (Hellooooo! Ebola is not transmitted through the air!) This hysteria has to stop!
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I just read the next three chapters...and now I get why those introductory pages to the inner levels of the Lab occur at the start of the book. Thought it was a little odd when they appeared before the Monet Chapters. Do you think these chapters - Nancy Jaax in the lab with the Ebola virus infected monkeys - will be Preston's main theme? They certainly were exciting!
Hysteria2 - every time I see your name and then your posts warning against hysteria, I have to smile. I will connect you with your warning in future posts! :D
"Ebola is not transmitted through the air!" Hysteria2
I've just finished reading the last lines of the Chapter - Total Immersion - and now have more questions about the transmission of Ebola. Will hold the question until everyone finishes these chapters...
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I'm getting an awful lot out of this discussion and your wonderful posts, even tho I am swamped and not able to contribute anything. That will change I hope tomorrow when I have a free day to read the next 3 chapters.
But on the previous thoughts, Pearson, that's just amazing, your son in Africa! And I did not know that Bruce had been in the Peace Corps there, too. Does Africa have the hold on Bruce it seems to have on everybody else? Has he been back? I can see Will is very happy there. Is he there on business or a service corps, or?
When you first said would we be worried if he were our son, my first thought was he's more likely to get it in the Newark Airport than where he is, and then I read all your posts, saw the monkeys, paid attention to hysteria's post and after reading the link put here about the replacement of fluids, I'd say I was wrong there.
The splitting of the disease from Ebola Zaire (which apparently authorities disagree on as the latest version, as late as last month, some say it's not Zaire, this latest one, some say it's a new strain, some say it IS Zaire). You can seemingly find experts to say both.
Do we think it's this replacement of fluids, golly moses what volumes given per patient, that makes the difference? They would be most unlikely to have that in Africa unless helped.
When I read the Flame Trees of Thika and saw the film I understood vicariously the hold Africa has, I'd love to see it. But MONKEYS? Everybody has something they are...afraid of? Dislike? I'm not sure what the word is. I hate monkeys, just hate them. Nasty nasty things. Can't look at them in zoos. Wouldn't want one anywhere near me and look at them in the photos there behind Will!! I'd rather walk thru 100 caves with bats than be anywhere near a monkey.
Would I be worried if my son were over there? Are you kidding? Heck yes. Even IF it is a gigantic country nobody has told the monkeys. Preston says with the advent of air travel... "All of the earth's cities are connected by airline routes. The web is a network. Once a virus hits the net, it can shoot anywhere in a day-- Paris, Tokyo, New York, Los Angeles, wherever planes fly."
But he doesn't mean it's airborne... (My doctor has the same notice up, hysteria)... You are not going to get it standing in line in Newark for 2 hours trying to get thru Customs, with the people around you coughing, or does he mean that? He means these infected people can then infect others, right? With bodily fluids. Except coughing being a bodily fluid? Coughing in your hand, putting your unprotected hand on one of those posts and leaving... and then? Right behind you comes a child. He puts his hand on the posts, it's still wet, he rubs his eyes, is he then infected? Which bodily fluids, do they know?
Entire villages wiped off the map around the shores of Lake Victoria, because this virus has moved from those disgusting monkeys to humans. The host.
Love the photos of Lake Victoria and the sunset, thank you Ella, I had no idea the thing was so huge!!!
Looks like a sea rather than a lake.
Pedln, I"m glad to see you here, I've missed talking to you in book discussions. Good point on Mr. Jones and his guilt. I think some people have an overdeveloped sense of guilt about things really beyond their control. Did anybody here think he was to blame? Or not? I may have missed that discussion. I hope not.
Anyway, this discussion, your links, Pat H, and what you're saying, Joan K, are very helpful and calming, to me!
Back when I've read the next three chapters, I am enjoying the book.
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The TIME magazine article about Ebola accuses WHO OF not handling this epidemic in Africa. That's their business, it's what it was created for, among other things. WHO says it is lacking in funds and personnel and hopes the USA and the European Union will help with financial difficulties. No one has THE ANSWER, if there is one, for the spread of this disease, or am I missing something. I know the media said the Africans took care of their dead, no doubt handling the bodies, cleansing, being esposed to their bodilly functions at that time.
Thirteen thousand monkeys were exported to Gernany; they were given a visual inspection by Mr. Jones, a veterinarian. The sick monkeys were to be destroyed, but later were found to be let loose on an island in Lake Victoria.
So it makes sense don't go near Lake Victoria, at least don't stop at any island!!!! You must tell your son, JOANP.
Ginny, I hope you don't have a nightmare thinking of that. I don't mind monkeys, part of the world as is birds and squirrels, etc. I don't want any animal in my house. For years, I had to have cats and dogs, a bird (which just would scare the bejesus out of me when my husband and the kids would let it out and it would perch on my shoulder or fly around the house.) I hated that, it was frightening. I ran around batting my hands and the kids laughed until I got in a room and slammed the door. I would chastise them later and they were good until the next time; the bird finally got out the window and we never saw the thing again!!!!!
We all have something that frightens us don't you think? Snakes?
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Ginny, you're right that Preston means that air travel means the virus can be transported around the world, in carrier victims, on planes, not that the virus is airborne.
I put up some questions about this section, but the main thing is to enjoy the good story and say what we think about it. Remember, though, that this section takes place thirty years ago, and don't draw too many conclusions about what the characters think is going on with the science.
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I have to admit that having my Will in Zambia has colored the way I'm reading this book. It makes a difference, really. An experience I hadn't anticipated.
This, from an email he sent last night -
"I'm in the Copperbelt (northern Zambia) doing a few work meetings with my former colleague xxx xxx. Tomorrow night we're going to a chimpanzee reserve before returning to Lusaka on Saturday. I'll send some more pictures then!"
What frightens me, Ella, is not so much the animals I can see - and run from, or avoid...but those I can't see - and wouldn't expect to do harm. -Like the virus that lurks in the blood of dead monkies.
No, I don't understand the mother of two, putting herself in harm's way. Do you regard her as a heroine, one who risks her life for medical research? Or is she trying to prove something else? Even her husband objects to her entering the Level Four Lab...with no vaccine protection...and he didn't know about the open, bleeding gash on her hand. Wasn't she supposed to report something like that?
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JoanP, it's so hard on you having a son in Africa right now. I truly believe he is not in danger, and will come home safe and sound, but I would be just as worried if it were my son.
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No, I don't understand the mother of two, putting herself in harm's way.
Suppose the Jaaxes hadn't had children? Could you imagine why she might take such risks? Or suppose she were unmarried?
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:) Now I see why Ella said hope you don't have nightmares. I read the second installment and enjoyed it tremendously, it's hard to stop. I got up thinking there are no monkeys here and then I read the three chapters, EEK EEK, he's a good writer.
It reminds me of those old Walter Winchell voice over programs on TV..."Bill did not know it, but today would be the last day of his life." I hated that omniscient voice pontificating about this poor man's life and here we have another omniscient narrator and Nancy Jaax.
I agree with Pearson, not sure why she would not report that injury or dismiss herself till it was healed. I think also she was out to prove something to others.
Lots and lots about her hands, her nervous hands, her quick hands, and let's face it: if she tried to open a can with a knife, and then slashed herself down the palm, perhaps that concern is justified.
At any rate, I'm not sure I agree with her that Ebola spreads thru the air, I think that may be dated but it's her own opinion and she's entitled to it. Especially since she mentions monkeys throw things and spit it would seem to me that there might have been other ways for it to have been transmitted, including human error in the care of the animals.
Just what we need!!! Why don't we all get a monkey? hahahaa
Ella I did not know that about you and birds. It's just birds in the house, right? Or is it any bird?
I love the book. Love the way it's written and the suspense. Is it OK to discuss this part now?
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I have not read the entire chapter, so I will only say I think Nancy Jaax has acted very irresponsible, going into the Level 4 zone with an open cut, with only a band aide on it. She has children, she could not only be putting herself at risk in contracting the virus, but also risking the possibility of infecting her husband and children.
JoanP., I can understand your concern for your son being in Africa, around monkeys. I hope he is safe from any possible risks.
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Like it or not, Nancy Jaax had additional burdens going into that position because she was a woman. Unfortunate, but it's a reality which exists even now. She did not help her cause by knowingly going into Level 4 with an open wound on her right hand. The wound on a hand is much more likely to get contaminated than a wound elsewhere. The minute she cut her hand trying to open that can, the reader just knew the open wound would play a role while she was doing the necropsy. There wasn't even any suspense there. Those who objected to her working with ebola had valid points. She didn't just have herself to think about. She had children who depended on her. Motherhood changes things. After she was possibly exposed to ebola, she reviewed everything that would change if she were to be isolated. That was not the time to analyze the consequences of contamination. She should have done that before she ever entered Level 4 with an open wound. I think she used poor judgment.
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"The minute she cut her hand trying to open that can, the reader just knew the open wound would play a role while she was doing the necropsy."
Hysteria, why do you think we knew the open wound would play a role a role, but Nancy Jaax didn't, didn't seem to realize the danger, didn't hesitate going into the lab that day? I'm going to reread those pages again, but don't remember calling in sick that morning an option.
Maybe she just had complete confidence in the protection of that space suit?
I'll tell you the moment I knew Nancy was taking a near-fatal risk. When I read that she was in such a hurry to get into that lab, she did not inspect the space suit as closely as she should have.. Now we know that she's in real danger...the open wound...AND a tear in the space suit, about which she is totally unaware.
ps. Have you ever opened a can like she did?
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No, JOANP, i have never opened a can like Nancy Jaxx did, how dangerous. The woman does not have common sense, is impetuous, tense, and, furthermore, somewhat hysterical when she broke into tears on learning that she was going to be working with Ebola.
"At that moment, to hold Ebola virus in her hands was what she wanted more than anything else in the world.
Is this the author getting too dramatic in the tale or does it really portray this woman's love of working with viruses? Crazy!
A simple bandaid! Wonder if it, at least, was a waterproof one! Definitely, she did not show good judgment, but she was too anxious to get in that lab.
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He may have exaggerated a bit: Here's an interview with now Colonel Jaxx. Nancy K. Jaax is chief of the pathology division at the U.S. Army Medical Research...
https://web.stanford.edu/group/virus/filo/jaax.html
She's quite pretty:
(http://4206e9.medialib.glogster.com/media/7936f09d13dce6051f330ff6851246dc3f8bc68159ba8b7b2ca9e5a202020f77/nancy-jaax.jpg)
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I wonder if Nancy Jaax was violating Level 4 lab regulations of the time by entering with an open cut? Probably not, as it was only her second time, and Lt. Colonel Johnson was watching her like a hawk to be sure there were no problems.
I can't imagine trying to open a can with a knife. It's hard enough with those little spike things that you punch in and then lever around the rim. And it shows a total lack of respect for your knife, which will surely be ruined.
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I think it should focus on the pathogenesis and mechanisms of infection, as well as finding the host reservoir. Until we know where this virus lives and exactly how it interacts with the human host , we will be handicapped in our search for an effective treatment.
When she talks about the "host Resevoir" does she mean its source?
This has all been fascinating reading, though for me it cannot be at bedtime. I tried it and had to switch to something else before turning out the light. I thought the chapter about N Jaax's "leak" with the blood was almost as horrifying as Preston's depiction of the innards of Kitsum cave. It was a great relief to see his (RP) comments about a conversation with Jaax held several years later.
As we learn more about her we find Jaax to be very focused about the Ebola virus itself - really quite driven to be part of the explorer team. I'm with all those of you who questioned her doing this at a time when she had young children. She wasn't just risking her health and safety, but theirs as well. I can't imagine her NOT having thoughts what she might be bringing home. Especially after finding the healthy monkeys infected and thinking that the disease could be airborn.
Sorry to have been so light in participation for such a good book. Have been spending much time researching changes in Part D and Medc. supplement insurers, and on the ASL class homework..
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Turns out to have been true that the Ebola virus in its present form DOES NOT carry through the air to infect others, but only through bodily fluids. The present day thinking is that it did not do so in Reston, Virginia in 1989 between those monkey cages, but was transmitted through fluids when they cleansed the cages by hosing them down, the person with the hose spraying back and forth and forth and back between the cages and body fluids being caught up in the spray. Makes sense to me!
A host reservoir is the place the virus began its "life," as it were, and where it can be found forevermore. For instance, the Hanta virus, named for a river in China where it was first reported as infecting humans and causing a most awful panic in this nation when it hit New Mexico and the Navajos some years ago, has been discovered to reside in field mice and deer mice. As of this writing, it has not yet been established what the host is for Ebola; and yes, bats have been strongly suspected. If you have a fascination with this book, THE HOT ZONE, do please follow it up by reading another thriller that is extremely easy to read and crammed full with information, VIRUS HUNTER, Thirty Years of Battling Hot Viruses Around The World by Dr. C.J. Peters. Peters was, when this book was written, Chief of Special Pathogens at the Centers for Disease Control. He is retired now, but still putting his oar in, and is mentioned by Richard Preston in his latest The New Yorker article. When you read VIRUS HUNTER and if you can get hold of and read The New Yorker, you will weep for the lack of money and manpower to fight these terrible viruses. And yes, we do have a cure for Ebola, but we have lacked the money to grow it. So far it has been 100% effective, but it takes Time and Money to get together. We grow it in tobacco products, of all things! So you see, there is a future for THAT industry in saving, as opposed to killing, lives. But we lack the money, lack the money, lack the money.
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JOANP, it's possible I knew that open wound would play a role because I have way too much time on my hands and spend a great deal of that excess time reading all kinds of mysteries (both general and medical). Now I have no idea why Nancy Jaax didn't even think about going into Level 4 with an open wound, unless she assumed that all that protective gear would work flawlessly. Anyone in the medical field should know that Murphy's Law is alive and well in any laboratory (and in many other situations)! She should have known better, and she certainly should have told her boss about the wound before going in there.
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Thanks Mary Page, for the info about Peters' Virus Hunters,which sounds like a good source for those of us who want to know more these dangerous diseases. A book like The Hot Zone pushes one to learn more about the events and the characters, and it has pushed me to learn more about the Jaax', especially Nancy Jaax.
25 Years After Reston (http://www.kansas.com/news/local/article3662605.html) -- another very recent (11/8/2014) interview and article about Nancy and Jerry Jaax, by Kelsey Ryan of the Wichita Eagle. N Jaax seems to have a knack for explaining scientific and medical terms in a way that is easy for laypersons to understand. Such terms as "resevoir" and "droplets." They too bemoan the lack of funding, MaryPage -- if we don't maintain these research facilities now we will lose our talent base.
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SPOILER ALERT!
Pedln, that's a great article, and explains a lot of things very clearly, and I'm glad to find out where the Jaax' ended up--I figured they would have retired from USAMRIID by now.
It does, however, give a brief synopsis of the main story of the book, which is the battle against the Reston outbreak, so if anyone wants the most suspense, they should wait to read it. Of course we know already that Nancy doesn't come to grief, since Preston has interviewed her--the suspense is mostly in the details and how they handle the situation. So it's a toss-up; read now or later. It's a really good article.
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Welcome, MaryPage, it's good to see you here. Thanks for the Virus Hunters book. I have several others ahead of it in line, but would like to read it. And thanks for the very clear explanation of host reservoir.
JoanP put a link to Preston's New Yorker article in the prediscussion. Here it is again. There's a link to the prediscussion in the heading for anyone who wants to look back at it, but I'll try to find time later today to repeat the links people found over here.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/27/ebola-wars (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/27/ebola-wars)
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"What problems did Nancy Jaax have because she was a woman? How did she handle them?"
For one thing...Nancy's own husband spoke against her suitability for the dangerous lab work - not just because she was the mother of his children, but because he was concerned about her temperament. I tended to agree with him. But the powers that be decided to take her on anyway, despite her husband's observation. It seems that her supervisor did not give her bad marks for going into the lab with that gash in her hand. Did he know about it? Did he know that was her own blood in the glove? How closely was she examined after that incident? He did note in his report that she was NOT exposed to EBOLA!
Did Nancy continue on in the Level4 Lab after that? Or was she replaced? From what Ginny and Pedln posted of her advancement, she continued as if nothing had happened. I guess her determination to conquer the virus - and willingness to risk her life were enough to impress her supervisor and allow her to continue on...
Do you think we just don't understand a scientist's determination to stop the virus, even when her own life is at stake? Such determination was rewarded here. I was heartened to read of the experiments going on back then, to come up with a vaccine stronger than the virus. Not sure how close anyone has come. Something must be working, either vaccine or treatment, because some who have been exposed are recovering. Maybe it's simply because there was no exchange of bodily fluids.
In today's Washington Post magazine, there's an article about the doctor who accidentally jabbed himself with a needle while treating Ebola patients in Sierra Leone. Three days later his fever reached 103 degrees. He was flown back to NIH. Since then, he's recovered and has gone home. It was a deep needle wound. Did you read about him this morning, Pat?
During the panic here, I read the best thing people can do to protect themselves...is to get a flu shot. I remember being skeptical of that, it seemed so minor - until I read in this chapter how Ebola is related (distantly) to measles, mumps, rabies, pneumonia...influenza
So, did you get your flu shot yet? Did Nancy Jaax get hers?
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That was a long, but informative article in the New Yorker. Thanks for that.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but a virus mutates when it makes a mistake in copying itself. Am trying to put this "mutation" in simple laymen's terms. The mistake then copies itself; later makes mistakes and the mutations continue.
And growing the "cure" in tobacco! An article in TIME states this:
"The process involves growing tobacco plants, not in the acres of fields earmarked by tobacco companies for their cigarettes, but in a controlled environment in a greenhouse, for six weeks. Then, the leaves of the plants are injected or infused with a plant bacterium that carries a valuable payload — the genes for the antibodies that can bind to and neutralize the Ebola virus. The plant cells treat the new genes as one of their own, and start making the antibody.
GINNY, no I am not afraid of birds outside as long as they continue to fly at the distance accorded them (by whom I don't know, but they seem to). It was a bird inside that house within the confines of a room, flying into the window constantly, poor thing, but it frightened me very much, as is obvious by my recollection of it.
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Yes, Ella, that's exactly what's happening in mutation.
The tobacco-based treatment is still in a stage where you wouldn't normally start giving it to patients; they have done so because the disease is so serious, and there isn't a better medicine.
Nancy Jaax certainly continued her level 4 work. Parts two and three, fully half of this book, show her and Jerry six years later, fighting the outbreak in monkeys in a lab in Reston. Whether or not Nancy's boss knew of the cut beforehand, I'm sure it came out in the accident investigation afterwards. Maybe the protocols of that time allowed you to do that work with a cut, if you were properly gloved.
Although Nancy lost her cool when her glove was breached, she wasn't any worse than a lot of others. She didn't panic when she first put on the suit as some do, running around screaming that they can't breathe.
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Yes, JoanP, i did read that article in the Washington Post. The doctor turned out not to be infected with Ebola. The fever was apparently a reaction to the experimental drug he was given after the accident. The accident was Murphy's Law at work: someone had left a needle dangling at the end of a used IV line. The doctor disconnected it, and found the sharps discard container overflowing. He stuck himself in the process of clearing up this mess.
Flu shots: that's not irrelevant to Ebola, since it starts off with similar symptoms, and too many people demanding Ebola testing would swamp the system. I got mine in September. Nancy Jaax had bad reactions to immunizations. She might not have gotten one.
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I'll tell you what would get to me about that space suit - not being able to hear anything - or anyone! I remember going to a concert at Wolf Trap once - an outdoor venue. I did notice a high wall of speakers on the right half of the stage, but was unprepared when the music started. It was SO loud I was unable to hear anything but the music. Tried to tell Bruce I couldn't hear him...and nearly panicked at the feeling we couldn't communicate. The band was the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. Will never forget that! I can understand why others would panic in the roar of that spacesuit.
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HYSTERIA: So you read mysteries? So do I and many of us. Would you like to join our mystery discussion where we share what we've read, and get new ideas?
http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=807.msg237737#msg237737
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Are you watching 60 Minutes?
Focus is on Ebola outbreak in Liberia. Heartbreaking...the little kids, being cared for...and then buried.
One doctor tells the Liberian people the virus is being spread by bats - since they are not getting sick.
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We're scheduled to move on, to finish Part One, with the last three chapters: Ebola River, Cardinal, and Going Deep. These describe the first known outbreaks of Ebola in 1976, Sudan and Zaire, plus another instance of Marburg in 1987, and a revisit to Kitum Cave. They needn't take long, since we've already discussed some of the issues, four days at most, and while we're reading, we can also finish up our conversation about the Jaaxes.
After that, we'll move on to Part Two, where we'll read bigger chunks, since it's a more connected story, back to the Jaaxes and the Reston outbreak.
I put the timing in the heading.
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I hope some of you saw 60 Minutes tonight. A wonderful segment with Lara Logan reporting right from inside a unit of American medical people in the heart of the epidemic in Liberia, Africa. It shows exactly what they are doing.
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I watched that 60 Minutes segment tonight and it raised a question for me. It said that little William's father had survived Ebola and now had immunity against the disease. And it showed him caring for his sick child while not wearing protective covering. I had not heard that about immunity before. Have any of you?
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Yes, I have read that in several sources. I am not medical at all, nor am I a Scientist, so I can tell you what I have read, but not explain it. Apparently you ARE safe from being reinfected with Ebola right after you have recovered from it, but they have no assurance, since they do not have enough History, as to whether this lasts indefinitely. Something about antibodies against the disease building up in your blood; and this is the time when they are now collecting some of that blood to infuse the sickest patients with. But apparently there are viruses we have all had and do not seem to catch again, and others that people have had more than once.
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I'm sorry I missed that 60 minutes. Someone who saw it--could you tell us more about what was in it?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online Will you join us?
The Hot Zone: A Terrifying True Story
by Richard Preston
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hotzone/hotzonecover.jpg) |
It reads like a detective thriller, but it's a true story--how the Ebola virus was discovered, and what happened when it turned up in a research lab just a few miles from Washington, DC.
"When Richard Preston's novel "The Hot Zone" was published in 1995, it was, for many, their first introduction to the deadly Ebola and Marburg viruses.
Nearly two decades later, Ebola has infected hundreds of people in three countries across West Africa, in what is considered the worst outbreak in history. As fear over the deadly virus grows, we need a reminder of what we learned so long ago from Preston." British Broadcasting Corporation BBC
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DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PART ONE: The Shadow of Mount Elgon
Nov. 1 - 5~ First three chapters--Something in the Forest, Jumper, Diagnosis (Africa, 1980)
Nov. 6-9~ Next three chapters--A Woman and a Soldier, Project Ebola, Total Immersion (Maryland, 1983)
Nov 10-13~ Last three chapters--Ebola River(Africa, 1976), Cardinal(Africa, 1987), Going Deep
PART TWO: The Monkey House
For Your Consideration
Nov. 6-9
1. We are going to see a number of people risking their lives, either for research or patient care. Do you understand their mindset? Can you see yourself doing this?
2. What do you think of the Jaax family lifestyle?
3. What problems did Nancy Jaax have because she was a woman? How did she handle them?
RELEVANT LINKS:
Prediscussion (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4472.40)
BBC Ebola Primer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28754546)
Mt. Elgon National Park (http://ugandawildlife.org/explore-our-parks/parks-by-name-a-z/mount-elgon-national-park)
Discussion Leader: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net )
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Thanks, MaryPage.
Here's more about the hospital that was shown on 60 Minutes last night. Where little Wiliams had two more child roommates.
Two Boys (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/10/world/africa/the-capricious-hand-of-ebola-one-boy-survives-as-others-die.html)
Have just started the new section. Can you imagine how they sent "the dregs of Sister's blood?" Surely not in international mail.
This book has made me think a lot about my college soph granddaughter. She volunteered at Sibley Hosp. in DC this past summer, and on one of my visits I asked her what she did that particular day. "We had training," she said. "We learned how to move blood."
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Thank you PatH., for posting this:
It does, however, give a brief synopsis of the main story of the book, which is the battle against the Reston outbreak, so if anyone wants the most suspense, they should wait to read it.
I stopped at her saying how much she wanted to be a part of Ebola, and how she had contracted Hepatitis C through a blood transfusion. So no spoilers for me!! I too had infectious hepatitis, and am not able to donate blood. I am very shocked she would be allowed to work with any type of blood pathogens, after having hepatitis C.
I missed 60 minutes, here is the link:
http://www.cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/video/ooPUJqBtmQsAdn_6L6txrPaITpsEVlQr/the-ebola-hot-zone-cleaning-up-the-va-steve-carell/
I can say I have used a knife to open cans like Nancy did, years ago when I had no can opener. It is very dangerous, and luckily I never hurt myself.
I would think she should have at least had to fill out an incident report before being allowed to work that morning, so it could be determined her safe to enter the Level 4 cages. As we all have thought and agree with, she did not use good judgement whatsoever. It's people like her that are overzealous in their work, that can cause harm to themselves and others. She reminds me of the nurse that refused to quarantine herself, thinking they know best. Ughh...this chapter did sort of freak me out. I agree, don't read close to bedtime.
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What I took away from the 60 Minutes program last night...
- once you are infected with the Ebola virus - and recovered - you are immune to getting infected again. Which was why little William, who was cared for by his father, without any protective equipment, died, but his father did not contract the virus again.
To me, that said that the young Doctor M who had cared for Charles Monet and contracted Marburg...and survived - could care for others without getting infected. (Though I don't think I would have risked it.)
The other thing - the conclusion - that the virus is being spread by bats - since they are not getting sick, like the monkeys and other beings are. That says a lot about the spread of Ebola today - in 2014.
We have to remember the timeline when reading this book - We are considering the spread of Ebola in the summer of 1976,in this chapter. No one knows which animals are spreading the virus.
The FIRST IDENTIFIED CASE of this unknown virus - in July...Mr. YU.G, who worked in a cotton factory - bats in ceiling, lots of rats too. Two more men who worked with him also died of massive hemmorrhages. This virus spread fast through Southern Sudan. This virus WAS NOT AIRBORNE. Ebola Sudan did not jump to a new host before dying.
Bella - what frightened me about Ebola Sudan in central Africa..."Undoubtedly it lives there to this day."
But the more lethal filovirus in northern ZAIRE - where the first human case has never been identified. This is the virus wreaking havoc in West Africa today.
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Here's a light note to encourage us in the midst of all the blood and guts. A wedding-dress designer in Baltimore has joined a team from Johns Hopkins in designing a better suit for the Ebola fighters. It fits better (hospitals weren't ordering enough different sizes), it's easier to take off, and it rolls up in a way that contains any fluids.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/how-a-wedding-dress-maker-is-trying-to-stop-the-spread-of-ebola/2014/11/09/5335db92-607c-11e4-8b9e-2ccdac31a031_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/how-a-wedding-dress-maker-is-trying-to-stop-the-spread-of-ebola/2014/11/09/5335db92-607c-11e4-8b9e-2ccdac31a031_story.html)
And the doctor in the New York hospital is now free of virus.
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I've had to skim over a lot in these chapters, you can only read so much about the devastating effects this virus has on these people. It's amazing how the spread of it just keeps going from place to place. Thank God we seem to have it contained here in the United States so far. Glad to hear the doctor is now Ebola free. Did we hear any updates on the nurse who refused to quarantine herself?
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Creative skimming is a good idea with these chapters. They describe the very first recognized outbreaks of Ebola, in Sudan and Zaire in 1976, plus the next instance of Marburg, in 1987, which provided a clue as to spot of origin. The main thing to get out of them is the overall pattern of spread and the efforts of people to figure out what is going on.
For instance, notice the differences from the very start between Ebola Sudan and Ebola Zaire.
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Belle.. Why do you suppose the author felt it important to tell the reader over and over the graphic, the bloody, details - horrifying details of the dying of ebola infected people? I have skimmed also, after reading the first such details.
I thought it might be helpful if we had a timeline of the various ebola viruses - remember hey are named for where they were first discovered:
http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/outbreaks/history/chronology.html
Do you agree that the death toll is diminishing and perhaps we can believe there is an end to this particular virus?
The acacia tree: So African looking: https://www.google.com/search?q=acacia+tree&biw=1110&bih=690&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=iExiVK3hMsSRyATCuIEQ&ved=0CI0BEIke#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=CCGPmDSCHHOuSM%253A%3B7lrcwunW_0klBM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.bestphotos.us%252Fdownload%252Fget%252Fwo124-umbrella-thorn-acacia-tree-5911.php%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.bestphotos.us%252Fphoto%252Fwo124-umbrella-thorn-acacia-tree-5911.php%3B3668%3B2400
Are we into the Ebola River chapter yet?
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Yes, we're into Ebola River and the next two chapters.
Why do you suppose the author felt it important to tell the reader over and over the graphic, the bloody, details
I suspect he's playing for sensationalism, like the unnecessary sex and violence in detective stories. I wish he wouldn't.
That's a really useful table, Ella. Our book was originally published in 1994, and describes events through 1993. So if you read from the bottom up, you can see that the three chapters we're talking about now finish covering everything that had happened then except the Reston virus, which is the big story.
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Two other infectious diseases are mentioned in the next chapter: smallpox and black plague (black death).
I have skimmed several articles related to these two diseases, very interesting if you have the time. Similarities and differences to ebola.
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I like the acacia pictures. Acacia trees are what comes to mind first when I think of African scenery. Elephant grass is mentioned a lot too, so I found some pictures:
http://www.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=elephant+grass&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ei=GQNiVK_AHseYyASjwIHACg&ved=0CBQQsAQ (http://www.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=elephant+grass&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ei=GQNiVK_AHseYyASjwIHACg&ved=0CBQQsAQ)
Looks like you could hide an elephant in it.
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Maybe Preston keeps repeating the horrible effects of the virus because he doesn't believe we have seen anything like it - (we haven't!) and is trying to impress us with those details. I can't imagine what it is like for family members to see their loved ones dying like this, one after another. And then to be told not to follow their burial rituals or they too will suffer the same fate.
Amazing that we are able to successfully care for - and cure those exposed to the virus here in the US. Imagine how far the Africans will have to come in their understanding of this disease! I've noticed in today's paper that case numbers, or fatalities are down in New Guinea and Liberia, but Ebola is still devastating poor Sierra Leone.
This chapter shows the virus tracking west...devastating Sudan. What a sad story of the teacher's vacation to the Ebola River - he was the first known Ebola Zaire victim. Two things stood out...eating freshly killed monkey meat, stewing antelope meat...and then rushing to the hospital where the Belgian nuns are using just 5 needles all day on hundreds of patients...including the infected teacher. Where was he exposed?
It seems those hardest hit are the caregivers, the medical staff and of course, families. The doctors who treated the nun who was brought to the capital of Zaire - suspected Marburg, so they must have seen their share of this virus.. They also knew her blood-soaked room was "hot" - because they locked the door and let it be. Probably a good idea.
That is a good link, Ella! What is most frightening...the virus is hiding somewhere, waiting for a host to come along. How long can it live?
Sr. M.E.'s blood shipped to the CDC...the dregs of her blood...and they are "hot"
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I don't believe Ebola is in New Guinea, which is an island in the Pacific, but is in Guinea in Africa.
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OOps! Fixed it, MaryP.
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Ella, I can't figure out why Preston has used the graphic, detailed descriptions of how the virus attacks over, and over, and over again, I just know it is so repetitive, and gives such horrific visuals reading it. I suppose partly, because it is in different areas, hospitals, and people, that he wants us to realize it affects everyone the same regardless. I feel like I am reading a suspenseful freak story. I can't ever imagine them making a movie of this, and anyone being able to sit through it. Ughhh...
PatH., I am with you, it could be for sensationalism, and I too wish he wouldn't. I have the images forever implanted in my mind.
JoanP., I totally understand your concern, because the host virus remains, and waits to enter a new living being.
I have finished the chapters and am sitting on pins and needles wondering why they never turned up a host virus in the Kitum Cave, on Mount Elgon. I was so certain because Peter Cardinal and Charles Monet "had crossed at only one place on earth, and that was inside Kitum Cave," (pg. 228) it had to be the place the two of them contracted it.
1989 SUMMER We are now back to Johnson and Nancy Jaax, reuniting in Maryland. So, I suppose even though years before, Nancy came close to being infected, she obviously did not.
Ella, That is a wonderful link showing the chronological order of the virus.
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Two other infectious diseases are mentioned in the next chapter: smallpox and black plague (black death).
I have skimmed several articles related to these two diseases, very interesting if you have the time. Similarities and differences to ebola.
Smallpox has one characteristic that makes it much easier to fight: there is no animal host; it only occurs in humans. That means that once we developed a vaccine (it was the first vaccine ever developed) it would be theoretically possible to vaccinate everybody, and get rid of the disease in humans. That would be the end of it, as there is no place for the virus to hide. And we've done this. We didn't vaccinate the whole world, we worked in rings surrounding the places where it still existed, then moved in, zeroing in on hot spots. Black death easily spreads rapidly, as its animal host is rats, which hang around humans all the time. It goes from rats to humans by way of fleas or lice (I forget which, and am too lazy to look it up).
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We'll start the next section Friday. I'm not quite sure yet where to put the break, but for those who want to start reading, we'll read at least the first 7 chapters of Part Two: The Monkey House. (Some of those are quite short.)
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As late as 1957, there was a case of Black Death reported near Albuquerque where I was staying. Some of the wild animals in the New Mexico desert still carried it. I imagine it's completely wiped out by now.
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A virus can be useful to a species by thinnning it out (p.83)
When I read that I was reminded of the forest and the good a fire does by thinning it out.
Johnson, one of the discoverers of the ebola virus, believes that it could be the virus that wipes us all out. Is that still true? There is no vaccine against it and there is no cure - am I correct?
In my small mind, I have theorized over the years that war has the same purpose in thinning out the human race - isn't it true that we are the only species that kills one another? Or am I thinking of something else?
Ebols was the "news" a week or so agp and now we don't hear much about it. I suppose it was the "news" because all of a sudden it was here in the USA. I know the president has sent a few hundred soldiers to the beleagered African nations to help with building quarantine shelters, etc.
Has anyone heard anymore about the situation there? I could google it, but am too tired tonight.
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Ella...Washington Post still running front page stories on our tops in Liberia. This morning 's story is mostly about the effects of Ebola in Liberia on the "collapsed health care system" and the hunger...the deaths of family breadwinners, the disruption of planting and harvesting, the closed borders reducing trade with neighboring countries.
"Ebola came at a time when people were about to plant their crops for the season."
It seems that Ebola cases have receded in Liberia, but Sierra Leone's problem with the virus continues.
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I think other species kill each other, but not on the large scale that we manage. Personally, I don't much care for the notion of our being "thinned out", by war, virus, or whatever. While it isn't impossible, I don't think this is going to wipe us out. We're working on treatments, learning ways to slow the spread, and the virus may well become milder. But we mustn't slacken our efforts.
JoanP mentioned a story in the Nov. 11 Washington Post that describes how there are many fewer new cases in Liberia, and they are more scattered. This is going to make the military rethink their aid efforts--build more smaller, scattered treatment centers instead of a few big ones in cities. But staffing will be the big problem. The virus could still flare up again, too.
Today's Post has a story about how the disease messed up the planting season in Liberia, so food is short. There are massive aid projects.
I think the fact that all but one of the patients here survived, and that at the moment there are no patients here has calmed people, especially the media.
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JoanP, we were posting at the same time.
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About our troops in West Africa - another article on p. A9 this morning - "Fewer Troops Going on Ebola Mission in West Africa"
The article says that the number of US troops sent to West Africa will peak at about 3000 soldiers by mid December. About 2200 have arrived in Liberia.
We're reading the same paper, Pat...Still there is concern about Sierra Leone. The article states that "steep increases of the virus persist in Sierra Leone" - but I don't see anything about our troops going there, do you?
Is that true, Ella? Is there no known cure? No vaccine? Perhaps just better ways of containing the virus? Does that explain the receding number of cases in Liberia?
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"I imagine it's completely wiped out by now." (Black Plague)
I'm thinking of your remark, JoanK and at the same time, thinking of Dr. Johnson's remark (don't ask me which Johnson, there are three of them!) Maybe it was Dr. Gene Johnson - the one who examined the blood of the 10 year old Danish boy who died of the virus in 1987 - Johnson searched for the reservoir...the original source of the the virus, believing the source would lead to the end of the spread of the virus. He discovered that the boy had been in Mt. Elgon's Kitum Cave! The very same place that Charles Monet had visited shortly before his death!...
Does this mean that the virus lurks there undisturbed - until the next crystal/rock collector finds his way into the cave? Shouldn't the place be shut down? I guess that would be difficult to do since the major expedition came up with no sign of the virus. Still, I think the place should be shut down to tourists - for good! Although the same conditions most likely exist in other caves. Still...
I googled Kitum Cave - found this
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"In September 2007, similar expeditions to active mines in Gabon and Uganda found solid evidence of reservoirs of Marburg in cave-dwelling Egyptian fruit bats. The Ugandan mines both had colonies of the same species of African fruit bats that colonize Kitum Cave, suggesting that the long-sought vector at Kitum was indeed the bats and their guano. The study was conducted after two mine workers contracted Marburg in August 2007, both without being bitten by any bats, suggesting the virus may be propagated through inhalation of powdered guano.
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The New Yorker article points out that there IS a cure, just none available now, since they used the small amount they had on hand on those two American doctors who came back from Africa nearly dead with Ebola. They have to find the funds to make more. I think it was also that article, which was by Richard Preston, the author of THE HOT ZONE, that said they could have developed a vaccine 10 years ago, but had to concentrate on threatening viruses right here in the U.S. There is just a small group of research doctors for a very large group of problems. The manpower and the money have to be spread too thin.
It would appear that in order to get more American doctors and nurses to volunteer to go over and help contain this current epidemic, they will have to promise them no quarantine unless exposure occurs and symptoms appear. One thing they (apparently from what I keep reading) know is that the very FIRST SYMPTOM is a fever, and NO ONE IS INFECTIOUS until such a fever develops. After that, and only after that, you are dangerous.
So if a health worker spends their vacation time over there helping out, and then comes back here completely symptom free to their families and their JOBS, they should not be penalized three whole weeks of no income and no getting out and about because of public fears and for no other good reason. It does not add up sensibly. How in the world can they pay their rent or mortgages? Our government does not subsidize quarantine periods.
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The verdict is out on whether the virus is actually in the cave, since they didn't find any, even though they checked a huge variety of possible hosts, and since the monkeys they left in the cave didn't get sick. It has to be around there somewhere, though.
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The Kitum Cave expedition set up their base in the Mount Elgon Lodge, amusingly described as "...a decayed resort dating from the nineteen twenties, when the English had ruled East Africa...a monument to the incomplete failure of the British Empire, which carried on automatically, like an uncontrollable tic, in the provincial backwaters of Africa long after it had died at the core."
It's described as being in financial trouble in 1988, but it's still going, smartened up a bit:
http://www.mountelgonhotel.com/ (http://www.mountelgonhotel.com/)
They're on a cliff overlooking the road to Kitum Cave, and I'm betting the current crisis has been bad for business.
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I apparently was behind in my reading, but I've caught up now. I think what stirkes me the most in these chapters, just off the top of my head is the pitiful situation of these people, going about their innocent lives and encountering this THING unbeknownst. Again the omniscient narrator and he's beginning to get on my nerves.
Here's poor Mr. Yu G in his office at the cotton warehouse. There are bats. There may be rats. And all of a sudden, BAM. Poor sister Mayinga N. Beloved and wanting to make a better chance for herself, BAM. The 10 year old boy, Peter Cardinal, that one really got to me. He was an amateur geologist. BAM.
I guess the point is it's hard for scientists to discover what is causing it so they can save more people but the stories are so poignant. It could be anybody, not knowing it's there, going out or working their jobs.
And I found this quite chilling:
The Ebola virus, in its Sudan incarnation, retreated to the heard of the bush, where undoubtedly it lives to this day,. cycling and cycling in some unknown host, able to shift its shape, able to mutate and become a new thing, with the potenaial to enter the human species in a new form.
Now THAT is scary.
And then after all this, and I can't find it in the book, they send a box of vials of the hot blood and they know it is, to...the CDC and there it is found to have broken thru and is soaking the box and they KNOW it's a "hot agent," or whatever the term is, and the woman, Patricia Webb, puts on gloves but nothing else? Apparently she didn't die? That's nice for Atlanta.
I actually have a cousin who worked at the CDC but not in this particular area, it would seem to me that somebody who knew the box was full of dangerous infectious material would have been more careful. Why wasn't she?
Does it matter? Nothing apparently happened to her but when they injected it into monkey cells they all died.
The way the book depicts this disease is that it's almost bad luck.. Maybe you have a cut in your glove or on your hand. You're toast. But maybe you don't...then you're OK. I don't know if this is intentional or not but it's kind of unnerving, and very sad for the people who died.
Is the message wise up and don't have rents in your gloves or chip bat guano from caves? How can the child be blamed for his spelunking? Nobody knew this existed.
is the message stay home and stay out of caves, Africa, the Sudan, etc., etc.? Stay out of airports? Yet nobody related to Mr. Duncan has been infected, is that right?
This was a strange section, to me. I'm not saying I don't like the book, or that I'm not enjoying reading it or this discussion, I am. I'm saying I am struggling to see the message in the way he's presenting it here. There's always a reason why an author writes something the way he does, I'm struggling to see how these poor innocent people had any hand in their own destruction.
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Be of good heart, Ginny! The great thing about this book, and others written since, is that you will be able to see the Big picture about Ebola from its first visit (that we know of) to our shores and go forth into the future with some information and understanding.
There have been viruses (which are not really "life" as we know it, being neither flora nor fauna) since before man emerged on this planet, and there are thousands and thousands of them coming at us, both old and known ones and new and unknown ones. Here is some food for thought:
http://www.livescience.com/47340-viruses-scarier-than-ebola.html
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Interesting link, MaryPage. Five viruses scarier than Ebola, but I bet most of us don't find them scarier. That's because we know more about them, and how they fit in in the world.
Be of good cheer, Ginny, we're done with the goriest part.
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hahha I appreciate all the good cheer, but I apparently am not expressing myself well.
I am trying to figure out from the way the author has chosen to present this material, (and it is his choice) what he's getting at. Why he's telling it this way. What conclusion he expects the reader to have from the way he's manipulating the way he's telling it. This is something I sort of always do, perhaps not as much in non fiction, but I think it applies as well, maybe more so.
He's chosen to present this material, no matter what the material IS, (that's really immaterial,) in a certain way. I am trying to figure out why. I wondered if anybody else had noticed. Apparently not. hahahaha
I'm not in the least depressed, or in need to cheering up or knowing what the end is, I don't care what the end is. I sense a real effort to influence the reader and I'm trying to figure out what he is doing right now and why he is doing it this way, and what the message to the reader is supposed to be, BECAUSE the way he is doing it , whether or not the reader knows or cares, does influence the message. This is really not a fact question or a question about Eboia and probably should not have been raised. It's an opinion question.
It's just an idle mind's Thoughts Upon Reading This Passage. :) :
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Ella, that Timeline is very very useful, and some of the references listed below it are linkable.
I hope I'm not jumping the gun here -- am not sure just where I'm reading (on four different devices, not syncing, not wise) -- have finished The Monkey House.
I've been looking at Ella's timeline resources, seeing if there are familiar names -- there are , noted in the quote below.
Jahrling PB, Geisbert TW, Dalgard DW, et al. Preliminary report: isolation of Ebola virus from monkeys imported to USA. Lancet. 1990;335(8688):502-505.
The quote below here is from the Washington Post article of August, 1989
One of the deadliest known human viruses has turned up for the first time in the United States, in a shipment of monkeys imported from the Philippines by a research laboratory in Reston.
A task force of top-level state and federal experts on contagious diseases spent much of yesterday devising a detailed program to trace the path of the rare Ebola virus and who might have been exposed to it. That includes interviews with the four or five laboratory workers who cared for the animals, which have since been destroyed as a precaution, and any other people who were near the monkeys.
Federal and state health officials played down the possibility that any people had contracted the virus, which has a 50 to 90 percent mortality rate and can be highly contagious to those coming into direct contact with its victims. …
From the Washington Post, August 1989.
This is a fascinating book. It reads easily, but at the same time is not easy to read. So many characters, so many government & NGO places, so many scientific details.
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I'm not in the least depressed, or in need to cheering up or knowing what the end is, I don't care what the end is. I sense a real effort to influence the reader and I'm trying to figure out what he is doing right now and why he is doing it, and what the message to the reader is supposed to be, BECAUSE the way he is doing it , whether or not the reader knows or cares, does influence the message.
(Ginny)
Is part of your opinion because you are reading it now, here, in 2014, after a media blitz?
There are times when I think, wow, preston had to do a lot of research, read all these WHO reports,etc. and then track people who could point him towards others to interview. Then there are times when I wonder if Preston is trying to fill up space. Why did he feel it necessary to tell his readers about the murder of Jerry Jaax's brother. Devastating, sad, but not really pertinent to the subject. Likewise, similar feelings about his description of Nancy's father.
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Good question. I don't know. I know the reaction I'm having has nothing at all to do with Ebola.
Every time you read a book you have reactions. I think Pat asked us originally what our reactions were as readers. The reader always has a personal reaction.
Usually reactions are caused by the way the author presents the material and why he presents it the way he does. For instance, I also keep thinking about Nancy Jaxx. Why was it necessary to tell us she had quick nervous hands, all about her hands. On and on and on. You'd have thought she was liable to incarceration because of her hands. That portrayal of her, which was immaterial, her quick hands, was in some ways a condemnation of her and her character. And her judgment.
Why was it necessary to explain the trying to open up a can with a knife and the slit. So we'd know she was wearing only one bandaid? So? It was a dangerous inconsiderate thing to do? And she immediately died of Ebola as a result? Or she could have? But she didn't. Why assassinate her character? I thought that was worse than the physical descriptions of the blood, etc. I expect she still has the same quick hands, Colonel and chief of pathology that she is?
We were all incensed at her....there for a while. And then what? Luck again?
But that one description got us as readers and we felt angry at her...well, the various points everybody raised. And she is supposed to be a hero here, fighting Ebola, and she has flaws? Is that it?
And now we've got more people chipping at caves, or working in an office with bats and possibly rats or wanting to get away and have a career...I'm trying to make sense out of what he's saying. It really has nothing at all to do with Ebola. Absolutely nothing.
So nice to talk to you again, Pedln! I always admire your views.
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My personal opinion, for what its worth, is that Preston attempts to write in a highly readable manner; to liven up his material and make us get into it personally.
He has been contributing to The New Yorker since long before he wrote THE HOT ZONE, and some of the material in the book was in earlier articles that appeared there. I am now left to wonder if he is gathering material for a sequel to The Hot Zone, and that this latest New Yorker article will be in that book.
I think he writes to sell, as this is the way he makes his living.
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GINNY: I'm glad you asked that question: why did he present the material THAT way, not another way? It's a question that we don't ask enough, and so often get "taken in" by biased reporting (I'm not saying that Preston is doing that).
I would say: first, he is definitely sensationalizing the situation (but maybe it's not just to sell books, he genuinely feels that it is a sensational situation, and people should be more scared than they are).
Second, for him, it's definitely a story about people. Although he presents scientific information, that's not what you take away from the story. Journalists are taught (I think) that the way to get wide interest in a story is to personalize it: tell it through the experience of one individual.
And he is very good at it, at getting you to be in the lives of these people, and experience what they did. We all feel we KNOW Nancy Jaaks. (Maybe his brother contributed here: that's what his writing does). People tend to do what they're good at.
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Unlike GINNY, I DIDN'T GET MAD AT Nancy Jaaks: I identified with her completely. Like her, I worked for years in male-dominated fields. If you haven't, you don't understand the pressure to prove yourself. Many such women feel they can't show any weakness.
She had had to fight for the right to work under these conditions, and this was the first time she had actually gotten to do so. If she had said " Oh, I'd better not: I have a cut" it might very well have been the last time. And it was reasonable to think that four pairs of gloves were protection enough (as they were in the end).
Whether she should have sought the job when she had children is another question, one I can't answer.
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I agree with both of your posts, Joan.
Here is something about our author.
http://richardpreston.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Preston
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Thank you Joan K, how nice to be in a discussion with you again and MaryPage for attempting to address the issue I raised. What a thoughtful post!
I think if you go back and look at the "we" I referred to, it's about 95 percent of those participating here who expressed some negativity about the "bandaid" incident, some more forcefully than others and that's what I meant about "we," that is, the members of this discussion.
I am not and have not been angry at Nancy Jaxx. I don't know the woman and feel nothing for her, so far she's cardboard, and no I don't feel from the very careful bits he's chosen to share with us, that I do know her. We know she has nervous hands, takes chances, really wanted to succeed, cut herself, wore a bandaid handling bad blood, felt it in her glove, ...does not like Victorian houses and that's about it. That's not enough to make any kind of understanding of the person herself. What it IS, is superficial judgment/ descriptions intended to hook the reader.
The info that's being shared by this author is quite controlled, possibly biased, and after "our" outbreak here of disapproval I thought I'd like to explore why we felt that way. We've not had her side. Yet.
As far as if one has ever been in the situation of being a woman in a man's world, I would not rule out any of us here, automatically. We don't all have the same reactions to things, however, which is what is supposed to make a book discussion better.
I really liked Joan K's thoughts here...perhaps his brother helped him, I do see some things that might suggest that happened.
I also appreciated the thoughts that he might deliberately be sensationalizing the people to make the point that (1) Ebola is dangerous, we should all take it seriously (2) to sell books. (3) the message is the people.
If those are his main points, however, the jury is out, with me. I am less afraid after reading this book. If he's done it to sell books, he's a shill and now that I see HE is the one who finished Micro that explains a great deal. I appreciate that information. So not impressive.
If the message is the people, again he's failed miserably with me, because he can't seem to portray anybody without one or two negative traits, without the balm of positive ones. The woman at the CDC. Careless? Stupid? We're all in danger? There's a message here and I don't know what he's hinting at.
Nancy Jaxx. The guy fishing, gee whiz, if you were after character assassination that one wins a prize. He's thoroughly unlikeable, profane, and if I remember correctly (and I don't have the book to hand) his segment interrupted a long graphic description of Ebola on yet another helpless victim. Is that right? So his clinical admiration of the virus seems particularly jarring. I'm sure he feels that way and I'm sure many scientists do, it's just the choice of the juxtaposition of the info and where it's put in the book. Can nobody see the reader is being manipulated? But for WHAT?
Lots of sturm und drang with anti climactic results. I think perhaps I'm saying that this author for whatever reason has deliberately chosen to present these people this way and I'm trying to figure out why. There has to be a reason. If the only reason is sensationalism, then shame on him. And possibly shame on us for swallowing it without question.
I won't belabor this point again, but I'm over here in the corner stewing on it. :)
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Nancy Jaaxs doesn't seem cardboard to me. We do have some more appealing details. She and Jerry had almost never been apart since they were married, and missed each other in the rare separations. They let the children snuggle in bed with them. Although they had similar jobs, she did all the housework and cooking, and the cooking was basic survival stuff. In spite of her iffy start in level 4 work, her old boss at Fort Detrick "...remembered her competence in a space suit and wanted to get her back." I don't think I would have done such dangerous work when my children were small, but I understand her willingness to take risks. You care enough about your work that it seems worth it.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online Will you join us?
The Hot Zone: A Terrifying True Story
by Richard Preston
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hotzone/hotzonecover.jpg) |
It reads like a detective thriller, but it's a true story--how the Ebola virus was discovered, and what happened when it turned up in a research lab just a few miles from Washington, DC.
"When Richard Preston's novel "The Hot Zone" was published in 1995, it was, for many, their first introduction to the deadly Ebola and Marburg viruses.
Nearly two decades later, Ebola has infected hundreds of people in three countries across West Africa, in what is considered the worst outbreak in history. As fear over the deadly virus grows, we need a reminder of what we learned so long ago from Preston." British Broadcasting Corporation BBC
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DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PART ONE: The Shadow of Mount Elgon
Nov. 1 - 5~ First three chapters--Something in the Forest, Jumper, Diagnosis (Africa, 1980)
Nov. 6-9~ Next three chapters--A Woman and a Soldier, Project Ebola, Total Immersion (Maryland, 1983)
Nov 10-13~ Last three chapters--Ebola River(Africa, 1976), Cardinal(Africa, 1987), Going Deep
PART TWO: The Monkey House
Nov. 14-17~First seven chapters--Reston, Into Level Three, Exposure, Thanksgiving, Medusa, The First Angel, The Second Angel (Maryland, Virginia, 1989)
Nov. 17-?~Last six chapters--Chain of Command, Garbage Bags, Space Walk, Shoot-out, The Mission, Reconnaissnce
For Your Consideration
Nov. 14-?
1. As you follow the search for answers at Reston and Fort Detrick, what things did people do wrong? What did they do right?
2. What did you think of the strange techniques needed for electron microscopy?
3. Could you have faced three weeks in the Slammer? What makes it so hard to tolerate?
RELEVANT LINKS:
Prediscussion (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4472.40)
BBC Ebola Primer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28754546)
Mt. Elgon National Park (http://ugandawildlife.org/explore-our-parks/parks-by-name-a-z/mount-elgon-national-park)
Discussion Leader: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net )
My impression back in the nineties when I first read this book was that Preston is one of those writers who wants rather desperately to bring an understanding of the known science about the dreadful diseases that inflict our lives and the lives of our pets and of the animal kingdom (foot & mouth disease, rabies, Venezuelan equine encephalitis, Hanta virus, influenza, polio, measles, mumps, chicken pox, smallpox, West Nile, Enteroviruses, and so on and on; the public is really not stopping to think on these, but assuming "they" are taking care of them) and he believes the way to do that is to write a thriller and pack it with interesting people who show all of the very most human attributes and do not appear as father-figure gods in white coats, as most folk view members of the medical community. I think he is reaching out to capture those who have never spent any time learning about these threats, but only reacted in panics and to vast amounts of misinformation. In short, I think he is serving up a learning process in spoonfuls of ice cream to make the medicine go down, as it were.
Which I believe is indeed a service to the general public. People need to know these FACTS on the ground, as it were, and any method that captures their attention is a good way, as long as it contains only truth. And we need to know that "they" do NOT know it all and that our government needs tax dollars to teach and train and pay real people who have families to support and equip them with the machines and materials required to do the job of attempting to make us all safe from these threats to our health and well being. In short, the public needs to follow the whole picture from A to Z. These "gods" cannot take care of us without our cooperation and approval, and they have not been getting nearly enough of either.
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I really enjoy reading the different views on Preston's book. If it werent' for the fact that this is Non-Fiction - and well-researched, especially the many interviews the conducted with these characters (the Jaax husband and wife, included)...I might be inclined to agree that Richard Preston is attempting to influence his readers in a certain way. But no, this isn't fiction. Nancy Jaax did go into the "hot" Level4 Lab with a deep gash in her hand - and without inspecting her space suit for the tiny hole that was there from the day before. This was NOT fiction. We can decide how we feel about her action, but Richard Preston had little to do with our conclusions, in my opinion.
I'm not in a position to comment on the relevance of Jerry Jaax' brother's murder as I haven't finished the book - though almost done with this section - up to the Jaax Thanksgiving dinner in Wichita...and Tom Geisbert's discovery of the virus that is killing the monkeys in the 80s.
Do you think the fact that this book was written 20 years ago when little was known of the Ebola virus has something to do with the way Preston has portrayed it? Do you think that because we are reading his book now - while the virus threatens West Africa, we are reacting to his book in a different way we would have when so little was known of the virus?
Does anyone wonder why the virus cases are receding now in Liberia? Does Ebola have a shelf life? Wouldn't it be grand if the same thing happens in Sierra Leone?
Does anyone know how the New York doctor, Dr. Spencer's virus was diagnosed? Was it in fact Ebola Zaire?
Posting together, Mary Page! I agree with what you say>
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And I agree MARY PAGE and JOANP. I hope many people read the book and perhaps that is why he deliberately titled the book THE HOT ZONE? Who knows?
JoanP, I would hope that the hundreds of soldiers that the USA has sent over to West Africa has been of some help with reducing the patients dying; weren't they to build quarantine shelters, and possibly, under the guidelines of local doctors they can be of further help. I must google this and come back with more information.
I am amused at the example of the money to pay for cooperation. Here in our country it is paying Congressman for cooperation.
A roadblock of fallen trees - or cut trees. How elementary and how beter to control traffic. Sounds a bit llke our American Revolution against the British.
The CDC Dr. Breman, poor fellow, was terrified after being called to go to Africa on assignment --believing he was going there to die leaving a wife and children in Michigan. But he went, the job required it.
And then, what heartache to realize that the victims he had come to help received the virus from the hospital.
Perhaps it is just in my family, but we have had two relatives who caught infections after surgery in a hospital and it took a long time to recover, much longer than they should have. My BIL even had to go to a nursing home for a couple of months after relative minor surgery. Makes one a bit doubtful. But we have no alternative and neither did they in Africa.
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I think the only relevance of Jerry Jaax's brother's murder is that Jerry took it very hard; for a long time he would get depressed about it. So it's part of the background of what's going in the characters' minds.
All the current Ebola cases seem to be Zaire, but I'll keep a lookout for specific reference to spencer.
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In October:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/17/u-s-soldiers-get-just-four-hours-of-ebola-training.html#
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UPDATED - click on arrow on the map
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/01/military-goes-to-africa-ebola-mission/16526873/
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Ella, I note that one of the people quoted in this last article is Tom Giesbert, who we meet in the book.
I would certainly want more than 4 hours of safety training, but it's probably enough unless the soldiers get more hazardous assignments, in which case they will probably get more.
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ELLA: thanks for keeping us updated.
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Let's start talking about Part Two: The Monkey House (but of course,we can always continue with previous sections too). It's a continuous story, but it's long, so let's start with the first seven chapters: Reston, Into Level Three, Exposure, Thanksgiving, Medusa, The First Angel, The Second Angel. We can read the rest of Part Two as we go, and feed it in when we're ready.
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If it werent' for the fact that this is Non-Fiction - and well-researched, especially the many interviews the conducted with these characters (the Jaax husband and wife, included)...I might be inclined to agree that Richard Preston is attempting to influence his readers in a certain way. But no, this isn't fiction.
Some of it is, unfortunately. Despite being non fiction and well researched, he's already admitted that nobody cried tears of blood, he made that up. (Isn't that the definition of fiction?)_ he exaggerated that one. And I don't think that's the only thing he has.... manipulated.... a bit.
The fact that a book is non fiction does not mean every word in it is the Word of Truth or the Word of God and should be taken as such without examination.
We know that from the news. The same "non fiction" facts as they are presented on the news every night. Depending on which TV station you watch, CNN, Fox, NBC, CBS, ABC, you get a completely different slant on the way that supposedly "non fiction" fact is presented, and sometimes you'd really not know you were hearing the same news. I am thinking of the recent Furguson (sp)_ situation. i know for a fact that Fox reported a situation not far from me erroneously as "fact, not fiction," and they were wrong. Not only were they wrong, they never corrected the first erroneous impression they gave. They just left it out there.
I think that no matter where a "non fiction" fact appears: on TV, in a book, in the newspaper, on the internet, a wise person will question the source and the slant as to how it's presented.
But I CAN see that nobody agrees with me here, which is OK, too. :)
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Ginny, I totally agree with your logic. Totally. So please do not feel isolated. I daresay most, if not all, of us agree with you.
As you say, there may or may not be some little tweaks of fact in this book; I did not notice, but I feel reassured about the writing on the whole because some of the doctors (perhaps most of the ones still alive; I am not making any attempt to keep score) are still contributing to his latest writings on the same subject. I don't believe they would hurt their own reputations by continuing to be interviewed and quoted by him if they found him to be misrepresenting the facts in any way.
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What a nice thing to say, MaryPage. Thank you. :)
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Ginny, I totally agree with you also. We must not believe everything we read, even though it is labeled "non fiction" nor should we believe everything we hear on TV. Think of the other non fiction books we have discussed here where the author has injected conversations he has no knowledge of through research or person.
Most of us are careful readers, not always, but we make the effort in non fiction.
What I meant by influencing the public by the book is that after picking up the book because of the title (you must admit the title can be interpreted many ways) people may learn something about Ebola, its dangers, and the suffering of those afficted and dying. They may pick it up it at a libary or a bookstore, I'm sure you skim books, too.
I'm not sure at this point why Preston titled the book as he did.
I'm not finished reading the book, keeping on schedule for once.
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I had never heard of camphor trees (pg. 86) - lovely trees
https://www.google.com/search?q=photo+of+camphor+tree&biw=1111&bih=715&tbm=isch&imgil=nuwDplau4YYrYM%253A%253BsfDgdg4F152JHM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fawordfromjapan.wordpress.com%25252F2012%25252F04%25252F30%25252F%25252525E3%2525252582%25252525AF%25252525E3%2525252582%25252525B9%25252525E3%2525252583%252525258E%25252525E3%2525252582%25252525AD%25252525E3%2525252580%2525252580kusu-no-ki-camphor-tree%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=nuwDplau4YYrYM%253A%252CsfDgdg4F152JHM%252C_&usg=__eE5JKUc0ILICn8gLCkDy9sedMSg%3D&ved=0CEAQyjc&ei=eZ1mVKmMCcH8yQSd5IGACA#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=nuwDplau4YYrYM%253A%3BsfDgdg4F152JHM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fawordfromjapan.files.wordpress.com%252F2012%252F04%252Fdscn40561.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fawordfromjapan.wordpress.com%252F2012%252F04%252F30%252F%2525E3%252582%2525AF%2525E3%252582%2525B9%2525E3%252583%25258E%2525E3%252582%2525AD%2525E3%252580%252580kusu-no-ki-camphor-tree%252F%3B4000%3B3000
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Oh Ginny - no one is saying that every book of nonFcition must be taken as fact...but this book has the science, which can be verified...and as Mary Page just put it -
"Doctors, (perhaps most of the ones still alive ...are still contributing to his latest writings on the same subject. I don't believe they would hurt their own reputations by continuing to be interviewed and quoted by him if they found him to be misrepresenting the facts in any way."
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And the Jaax couple, surely they would have spoken up if he mis-stated their actions.
As much as we read in today's news of the risks of health care providers to the Ebola patients, I'm beginning to appreciate the scientists, who are risking so much attempting to identify the virus killing the Reston monkeys. Hair-raising moments in Level4 Lab - as Richard Preston describes it here!
Ella, an interesting question. Where is this "hot zone" of which Richard Preston writes? My guess...wherever the fibrovirus turns up. What do you think?
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I thought it explained that in the book. One of my daughters has my copy. But my impression for simply years now has been that that is what those most involved with the outbreak in the lab in Reston, Virginia (my family and I lived nearby at the time!) called it, and that Preston simply used THEIR terminology for his title. It seemed like a natural to me. But at this moment, when I no longer have the book in my hands, I cannot prove that my memory is correct. Perhaps as you are reading that section, one of you will be the first to see those words used by one of the doctors involved.
Yes, I just Googled these words: "define hot zone," and you can, too. Apparently our dictionaries say a hot zone is any area that it is dangerous for humans to enter. The cause could be a chemical spill or any one of a number of reasons.
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I don't remember where or if Preston defines the term, but he is already using the words "hot" and "hot zone" in the chapters describing Nancy Jaax first using a space suit, and dissecting Ebola monkeys.
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This morning's Washington Post has an article describing how aid workers in one section of Liberia reduced the number of new cases by working hard to gain the trust of the locals. They redesigned the treatment center so outsiders could see what was going on, and talk with patients across a transparent fence. They buried the dead in marked graves, in the presence of family members, with ceremonies. (No touching, obviously) As a result, more patients came to the center immediately, and transmission was damped down.
Of course, cases are declining in Liberia anyway, so it's hard to separate out the different causes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/ebola-cases-plummet-in-liberian-hot-spot-as-aid-groups-gain-community-trust/2014/11/14/5b2efc18-6b88-11e4-a31c-77759fc1eacc_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/ebola-cases-plummet-in-liberian-hot-spot-as-aid-groups-gain-community-trust/2014/11/14/5b2efc18-6b88-11e4-a31c-77759fc1eacc_story.html)
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And the new People Magazine has an article by the nurse in the US who got Ebola and who still maintains she was not in any way exposed to any fluids. It's interesting. It looks like the fluid replacement thing is very important tho she makes the case that the veins collapse (if I understood that correctly) so it's hard to do injections. I expect this is online as well. She said she feels very lucky to be alive.
Ella, thank you. Actually I thought of you in your discussion of the doctor in ...was it the antarctic....who operated on herself and your questioning quite a bit about that book. :)
Happy Belated Birthday, by the way! I seem to remember you in London catching sight of your birthday as portrayed in an ad in the Tube.
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Now we're into a sort of detective story, as they track down what's going on with the monkeys, and finally, at the end of this chunk, realize they have Ebola Zaire on their hands. Next step--how to handle it?
This story hits close to home, as I'm just across the river from Hazelton Labs, and at various times have known people who worked there. I used to get samples from them too--not from monkeys, though, mostly rabbit antibodies. By 1989, though, I didn't have any dealings with them, and could only follow the story in the newspapers, where there was a lag in information, but I was acutely aware of the incident, even though I didn't know details.
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t is so easy to give a false impression (deliberately, or completely accidentally) because of the point of view adapted or the facts selected. It's always wise to ask "How would things look different from over here?
A deliberate attempt I know of: a newsworthy event happened involving my children's elementary school, and was followed over days on all the TV stations. The school's students were almost completely white (in our typically segregated suburb) but the cameramen always followed the few black students (all the kids suddenly wanted to walk to school with the little black girl across the street because they knew they'd be on TV if they did -- kids aren't stupid) and shot pictures in my daughter's classroom, that had the only black teacher.
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That is so amazing. Our media here has been SO over that sort of thing for simply decades now!
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OH wow, i just looked at the heading, I am behind again!! :)
I just finished reading about Jerry Jaxx's brother, what a sad thing, imagine finding your husband like that. I hope it has some relevance to the plot.
Oh JoanK, yes, that type of thing definitely happened and happens. I guess they think we're too stupid to notice what they're doing. Or we are believing what we see. I really thought CNN at the Ferguson thing had a lot to answer for.
PatH, Hazelton Labs used to send you rabbit antibodies? Did you ever notice any irregularity in how they came to you? Did you get pieces of meat in tin foil or stuff like we're reading here? (Obviously I know nothing about the transfer of antibodies). hahahaa
This is a good question in the heading: 1. As you follow the search for answers at Reston and Fort Detrick, what things did people do wrong? What did they do right?
And here right at the beginning is yet another ....what do you call these things where...you've got a mystery meat wrapped in tin foil and it's leaking out? Another transfer of dangerous substances...is this common? Was it then?
This IS an exciting section in the book. I stopped dead tho with the crab eating monkeys, which, when stared at, fling themselves at the person. That very thing happened to me as a child but it was the famous gorilla in the Philadelphia zoo and it scared me half to death. They should have put a sign don't stare at giant black gorilla. Thank goodness all those shatterproof panes of glass held or I wouldn't be here to talk about it. But that is exactly what happened. What a week this has been for olde Philadelphia memories.
Anyway how ironic the musing of Jahrling to the other man, "Good thing this ain't Marburg," and they chuckled. Now how can anybody stop reading at this point? :)
And then the sniffing.
Very suspensful. I have to wonder if this happened today if they would be taking photographs around to various offices or sending them digitally and if digitally if that would help speed a diagnosis or not? If that would cause any difference in the detection?
That was a very excitingly written sequence of events. I am still wondering about the diamond knife, will it have significance later on? Or is it a red herring.
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That's a good question, Ginny, would there have been an earlier diagnosis if the photos were sent digitally. My first thought was yes, but the tests will still take time, and these people didn't waste any time trying to mail photos and images. They walked them or drove them to the next recipient as fast as they coould. So I don't think being digital would make much of a difference timewise.
I can't answer the question yet about what, if anything, did they do wrong. That needs more examination. But there were things they did right. One, right off the bat, was Dan Dalgard's Chronology of Events in which he provided detailed happenings among the monkeys. Another thing done right was Peter Jahrling's double checking and double testing to make sure his first diagnosis was correct. Another plus for these folks was that they didn't pussy-foot around. When a problem was diagnosed, it was moved right up the line. Very decisive leadership.
Do you think Preston has tossed us any red herrings? I can't seem to bring up page numbers with my iPad App, but this is from the chapter that ends just before Thanksgiving. Talking about Tom Geisbert.
"But now, his mind was on the hunting season. . . . planning to drive his Ford Bronco, but it had broken down; so one of his buddies met him . . . set off on his hunting trip. When a filovirus begins to amplify itself . . . in the bloodstream. Then comes the headache."
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That's interesting, PatH, your previous experience with the Hazelton Company.
That's one of the things I’ve been trying to sort out here -- the different individuals and locations and their respective positions.
First off – Reston Primate Quarantine Unit – owned by Hazelton Research Products (actually Corning Glass), involved with importation and sale of monkeys. (The Monkey House)
Dan Dalgard, dr of vet. Medicine. Employed by another Corning firm but on call to the Monkey House. Primates are his specialty. Hazelton and Dalgard are NOT part of the military.
Bill Volt, manager at the Monkey House. Works with Dalgard.
Fort Detrick – Army base near Frederick, MD. Site of USAMRID -- US Army Medical Research Institute of Infectous Diseases -- simply called The Institute.
Peter Jahrling – civilian, virologist, most of his career has been at Fort Detrick, with the Institute. Specialty – killer and unknown viruses. Thought the packaging of monkey samples from Reston pretty sloppy.
Tom Geisberg –civilian, intern at the Institute. Worked with the electron microscope – photographed small (minute) particles. Big outdoorsman. Jahrling is his boss.
Gene Johnson – civilian biohazard expert; in charge of Ebola research program at the Institute; deathly afraid of Ebola. Mapped Kitum Cave in 1986. 1988 – persuaded Army to sponsor U.S. –Kenya expedition searching for viruses in Kitum Cave. He considered the expedition a failure because they didn’t find anything and had to euthanize healthy monkeys.
More to come, I haven't forgotten the Jaaxes, and the others.
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As late as 1957, there was a case of Black Death reported near Albuquerque where I was staying. Some of the wild animals in the New Mexico desert still carried it. I imagine it's completely wiped out by now.
Sadly this is not the case. We still have a few cases of plague every summer here in New Mexico. If someone contracts the disease in NM, odds are he/she will survive because physicians here are on the lookout for it. However, if that person contracts the disease and then travels out of the area (like back east, for instance), the outcome may not be so good, because it is not common elsewhere.
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Ginny, all the samples I got from Hazelton were clean-looking liquids in small glass bottles. We were paying them to immunize rabbits and send us the serum containing the antibodies. If they had ever sent us a dripping wad of foil, they wouldn't have gotten any more orders from us. It wasn't done at the monkey house.
To be fair, Dan Dalgard was a veterinarian working at a quarantine facility. Maybe he wasn't used to packing his own samples.
What a scary experience with the gorilla! I must say I don't care for the personalities of these monkeys.
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I seem to remember in reading about the experiences of some folks who have studied the most primitive and uncivilized tribes they could find around this planet that a frequent tabu was to look someone directly in the eyes when speaking to them. So perhaps it is something innate in all primates. Cats seem to feel direct eye contact a no-no, as well.
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Hysteria - that is a sobering thought! "a few cases of plague every summer here in New Mexico. If someone contracts the disease in NM, odds are he/she will survive because physicians here are on the lookout for it."
But if a traveler takes it back east where it is unfamiliar, he might not survive it! That's the "unlucky" Ginny was talking about...
In the case of the Reston monkeys, it was "lucky" there were virus hunters who were somewhat familiar with the filovirus in close proximity - able to move fast - and contain it.
Pat - was word of the Reston virus widely published at the time - outside of your scientific circles? Why wasn't I panicked I wonder? I was raising my little family in the next county - 5 miles away in Arlington. Can't believe I was so busy, I wasn't aware of such a threat!
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Maybe that's why I love dogs...making eye contact with those big expressive eyes. Mary Page! :D
I meant to say that I really like the way Preston has filled out the scientists' personalities - not just given them names, but brings them out as strong individuals. I feel certain he wouldn't exaggerate them. One thing I noticed about them - they didn't always stick to the rules, to protocol, in their pursuit of answers. And they didn't always report things that might interfere with their tests...like sniffing the unknown substance in the tubes, which turned out to be a dangerous filovirus. Even after they learned how dangerous this had been...they still wanted to be sure they actually contracted something before being condemned to the Slammer.
This helped me to understand Nancy Jaax a little better - why she didn't risk being taken from the lab by reporting the wound in her hand. Somehow she doesn't seem as much a renegade as she did at first - ready to take a chance for science. Nothing to do with being male/female? Perhaps this is a characteristic of a scientist? Are they all this dedicated?
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Yes, there was a LITTLE, but only a little, bit of information about the Reston problem back around the time it was ongoing. It was enough to make me, at the time, feel queasy about what was going on and what might be threatening my children. Being an army brat by birth, and having an awareness of both nuclear and biological threats to an extent to cause a constant weight within my mind, I cut out and still have some newspaper clippings. I was going through them just the other day, brittle yellowed pages from The Washington Post and other local papers, and I find I neglected entirely to write the DATES in the margins! Bad on me! I had thought to share some with you, but I don't feel not having the dates would be helpful. This afternoon, I will make it a point to go through those yet again and see if there is something too good not to share. Needless to say, I scooped up and tore through THE HOT ZONE just as soon as it was published.
Most of us flinch from the onerous duty of reading a textbook-like telling of the history of the study of a disease-causing agent. BORE - - - ING! It is for this reason I feel so deeply that Preston does us a big service in offering the same thing up in an almost fiction-like recipe. He gives us the PERSONALITIES of those involved in the real life drama. And drama it was! But stop and think about it: we are all much more interested in the life stories of those we know than of those we have never met. Thus, in order for us to retain the information about what happened, Preston needed to introduce us intimately to the real people involved.
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This is the physician who headed the team who went into Reston and finally contained the Ebola outbreak there in the monkey lab. He also wrote VIRUS HUNTER, which I am hoping you will read as a follow up to The Hot Zone. Seventy-four years old now, he is still working, and I doubt he will ever quit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._J._Peters
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MARY PAGE: how interesting that you saved newspaper clips from the time. I hope you will share, date or no.
Also living in the area, I was oblivious at the time.
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Perhaps this is a characteristic of a scientist? Are they all this dedicated?
JoanP
It's not exactly dedication, it's excitement. You are caught up in what you are doing, and care so much about it that risk (at least some risk) seems secondary.
The incident was reported in the Washington Post, but was downplayed somewhat. I don't remember being worried, but of course I was a lot farther away.
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There is something I am trying very hard NOT to be upset by, but it is a hard struggle for me, and that is this: it is true that I have heard quick passing comments among the "talking heads" on the news and the newsy programs, such as the ones I listen to religiously on Sunday mornings: Meet The Press and Face The Nation and This Week, etc., to the effect that there are people "out there" who think that A. The whole "Ebola thing" is a hoax or B. It is a conspiracy on the part of the government to cut down on and control the population, and so on and on from C to Z. And I have been appalled, but paid it very little mind, thinking it was a very tiny but vocal rant coming from the very mentally ill.
Then this afternoon I went hunting for Doctor Peters and found whole newspaper and magazine and internet blog articles and Youtube videos, VIDEOS, for crying out loud, saying all the same things! And now I am wondering how large a number of obviously literate and technologically gifted human beings are OFF THEIR GOURDS, and if this is not a much greater threat to the safety and well being of my great grandchildren than is the dread Ebola!
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Oh my, MARY PAGE. I can see why you're upset!
Any one can talk on the internet. I wonder who reads these things? Do my grandchildren, who are just starting to explore the internet? I like to think even they have enough sense to know that's nonsense. But obviously someone doesn't.
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I have finally caught up in my chapters and all I can say is WOW! How could so many experts come in contact with these viruses and not come down with it? The risks they are taking, not quarantined, and flying and going from town to town, and different military facilities is just astounding to me. I shudder just reading how they take the decision into their own hands not revealing they have sniffed, whiffed, or inhaled the virus from a test tube is beyond me. Now we have the egotistical men trying to take ownership for discovery so much so, they are putting themselves and others in danger. Oh how I am shaking my head with dismay. I truly can see this happening in politics today. They don't want the public to know, they hide real events, and yes, put the general public in harms way because of their arrogance.
I found this article today, I have not watched much television over the weekend, so I am not sure if they had even reported this doctor flew into the U.S. I am more than certain they are keeping the number of patients that have Ebola in the U.S. out of the media as best as possible. It is almost not even discussed any longer on the news since the election took place.
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/11/17/surgeon-who-contracted-ebola-virus-in-sierra-leone-dies-at-nebraska-hospital/
pedln, Then there are times when I wonder if Preston is trying to fill up space. Why did he feel it necessary to tell his readers about the murder of Jerry Jaax's brother. Devastating, sad, but not really pertinent to the subject. Likewise, similar feelings about his description of Nancy's father.
I found myself asking the same questions I hear some of you asking, why is the author bringing in people who are not pertinent to the story. Why keep telling us how Jerry Jaax is depressed? I did not find Nancy Jaax at all "cardboard" even though I did find her irresponsible in not filing an incident report about her cut hand. She is back on the scene and very important to the story. I did find bit too many names and places in these last few chapters hard to keep up with. I had to shut down my ipad and take a break.
MaryPage, I too have read articles online about the theory the government is preparing to thin the population, and there are actual pictures of thousands and thousands of rows of coffins in remote areas waiting to be filled. Now how crazy is that! But I have seen the pictures and have wondered, what the heck are all those coffins for. I choose not to get caught up in the baseless theories and the scare tactics of this virus. I believe the American public is not being told everything, we are not getting the correct numbers as to how many are being treated here in the U.S. with this virus. Most media stations refused to air anything whatsoever on it, and went as far as blaming the ones who did cover it as being fear mongers. Oh what a crazy, political world we live in. ::) ::)
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I don't watch television news, but the Washington Post has certainly had a continuing flow of stories about Martin Salia, the doctor who just died, telling when he got sick, when they decided to fly him here, what hospital he went to when he arrived, etc, including a long one this morning about how critical his condition had become. My edition goes to bed too early to have his death this morning in it, but it's already on their website.
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It looks like we're ready to add on the rest of "The Monkey House". I've put the chapter names in the heading. Of course we can still talk about earlier stuff, and current news.
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Pedln's handy little chart should help keep the names straight, Bella. As the realization that this is a really contagious filovirus grows, more and more people from the CDC and the Army become involved. As Preston has portrayed them, they become more and more likeable, don't they? He makes you care about them. I'm so afraid something will happen to Dan Dalgard. He had handled and dissected the dead monkeys - without sufficient protection. I'm still not sure he'll survive this.
Tom Geisbert is another one...a young intern, working with that electron microscope - his "diamond knife with the sharpest cutting edge on earth." Didn't you fear for him when you read that?
His electron microscope provided a digital readout..
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His breath stopped as he began to realize what he was looking at. A filovirus! Marburg? How many days ago had he actually sniffed the the substance? 10 days ago? How deep did he sniff it? The incubation period was 6-18 days.
Little by little he realizes this is serious! I love the way Preston presents this and builds the suspense!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online Will you join us?
The Hot Zone: A Terrifying True Story
by Richard Preston
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hotzone/hotzonecover.jpg) |
It reads like a detective thriller, but it's a true story--how the Ebola virus was discovered, and what happened when it turned up in a research lab just a few miles from Washington, DC.
"When Richard Preston's novel "The Hot Zone" was published in 1995, it was, for many, their first introduction to the deadly Ebola and Marburg viruses.
Nearly two decades later, Ebola has infected hundreds of people in three countries across West Africa, in what is considered the worst outbreak in history. As fear over the deadly virus grows, we need a reminder of what we learned so long ago from Preston." British Broadcasting Corporation BBC
|
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PART ONE: The Shadow of Mount Elgon
Nov. 1 - 5~ First three chapters--Something in the Forest, Jumper, Diagnosis (Africa, 1980)
Nov. 6-9~ Next three chapters--A Woman and a Soldier, Project Ebola, Total Immersion (Maryland, 1983)
Nov 10-13~ Last three chapters--Ebola River(Africa, 1976), Cardinal(Africa, 1987), Going Deep
PART TWO: The Monkey House
Nov. 14-17~First seven chapters--Reston, Into Level Three, Exposure, Thanksgiving, Medusa, The First Angel, The Second Angel (Maryland, Virginia, 1989)
Nov. 17-?~Last six chapters--Chain of Command, Garbage Bags, Space Walk, Shoot-out, The Mission, Reconnaissnce
For Your Consideration
Nov. 14-?
1. As you follow the search for answers at Reston and Fort Detrick, what things did people do wrong? What did they do right?
2. What did you think of the strange techniques needed for electron microscopy?
3. Could you have faced three weeks in the Slammer? What makes it so hard to tolerate?
RELEVANT LINKS:
Prediscussion (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4472.40)
BBC Ebola Primer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28754546)
Mt. Elgon National Park (http://ugandawildlife.org/explore-our-parks/parks-by-name-a-z/mount-elgon-national-park)
Discussion Leader: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net )
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his "diamond knife with the sharpest cutting edge on earth." Didn't you fear for him when you read that?
JoanP
I feared for Tom Geisbert, but not because of the diamond knife. They're tiny; the sample he was cutting was the size of a toast crumb. It's an incredible preparation. He was probably cutting slices of the thickness of 50 or 100 nanometers. A nanometer would be a thousandth of a thousandth of the thickness of the toast crumb. That's why the knife is so expensive, not just the diamond, but the accuracy.
Here's a picture of a ribbon of slices hanging down from a knife, with someone starting to remove them with an eyelash on the end of a stick. That brown curve at the purple end of the stick is the eyelash. Geisbert's knife might very well have been bigger, but still not big enough to make a major wound.
http://www.embl.de/services/core_facilities/em/equipment/cryo_ultramicrotomes/ (http://www.embl.de/services/core_facilities/em/equipment/cryo_ultramicrotomes/)
Thanks for the heading.
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Thanks for the election microscope! Pat.
Just finished the rest of The Monkey House. Will just say -
Don't decide too quickly that Jerry Jaax isn't pertinent to the story!
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I think it's pretty funny that the people who can engineer such knives can't manage to engineer something that beats a human eyelash.
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Our local news here in the Washington, D.C.- Baltimore metropolitan area is leading with the latest Ebola news every night still, as is the evening national news on ABC and NBC, which are the two channels I watch every day without fail. I see no reason to believe there is a vast conspiracy on the part of doctors, nurses, other medical personnel, the media and the governments many involved agencies, not to mention the many charitable groups and non-profit, non-governmental agencies and the foreign media and the many foreign governments involved to keep any information or data from the American public about Ebola. It just is not POSSIBLE, and there is no reason for it.
And yes, The Washington Post and our Baltimore Sun and Annapolis's own The Capital have all been running daily updates. I also find it in the weekly news magazines. On the whole, I have perceived no withholding of information. With thousands of deaths in Africa from this outbreak, perhaps the photo of hundreds of caskets were from there. Or it may have been taken at a casket makers worksite?
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I finisihed the book last night and I must say the second half of the book was all drama, all suspence, hard to put down. This author should be writing fiction because this is what the book reads like; perhaps his brother gave him some help here?
We have to be very concerned and very puckered if it is of the same ilk as ebola," C J. said.
I have never heard that word before?
But to read of all the agencies hopping around Washington, tryling to decide who has the most power and the capability to act in accordance wth a threat was interesting reading. I'm sure it goes on all the time; the latest example might be immigration. Although not a threat it is a big issue and needs both power and capability.
I don't know that if I were thirsty or hungry if I could eat termites as C.J. did on a trip to Africa, could you? (pg. 172)
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Just, maybe, I might be able to eat termites if I hadn't had any food for days, but it would be a close call.
"Puckered" or "pucker factor" is defined some chapters back. It means "afraid": "This is a military slang term that refers to a certain tightening sensation in the nether regions of the body, in response to fear." I find it distracting. The thought of a bunch of military brass sitting around a table being "puckered" cracks me up.
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Yes, it's real drama now. The drama is there, in the facts, but Preston knows how to tell it right. In this section, we've defined the problem, had our turf wars, amassed our forces, and planned our campaign. Now for the battle.
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This being the 18th, I see I'm totally behind again! We're to go thru Reconnaissance. I wanted to say Pedln what a super post and I wanted to say something about your masterful list (one does need a score card)... I'm glad to have it. And Pearson has found that Jerry Jaxx plays an important part. I wonder if it has anything to do with his brother's death, tho? We must read and find out!
To me there are tons of red herrings, yet. Strings not yet tied up. But we're used to them being tied up. Pearson said earlier on she just knew when she read XXX that whatever it was what was going to happen. Me, too. The foreshadowing was quite strong. But now we have a lot of loose ends, one after the other. I am interested to see if they all are explained or something is left hanging for Book II.
hysteria, no kidding! PLAGUE? Is that different from that ...what is that strange disease one gets from rats, where rats have been? Hantavirus? (We can see what I know about the Black Plague!)
I would not be eating termites and it appears the gentleman liked the taste and had them often. Alllll rightie then. :)
On the question on the Slammer in the heading, I must admit I don't understand it, at all. People go crazy. But this is not a prison, right? I have heard that people go nuts in solitary confinement. Surely the people in the Slammer can have something to read? Something to watch? TV? Something to occupy their minds. Writing utensils. A contemplative time? No? Something to look out on? No?
Why not? They are not incarcerated, right? This is a digital age, right? An IPad sprayed with lysol?
A new IPad which could be incinerated along with the rest of the detritus?
The gorilla which scared me half to death was named Massa,(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/gorilla.jpg) which died at the age of 54 January 1, 1985 after eating birthday cake.
He weighed, get this, 400 pounds. Big big thing. I can see him splayed out on that glass now. And I mean he came from across that huge space to do it. But I don't think it was glass. I think it was probably several shatter proof layers of Plexiglas in their new monkey house exhibit. Plexiglas had been patented by the Rohm and Haas company, whose US headquarters were in Philadelphia, and my father worked for them his entire career. I always thought that was ironic: what a good commercial for Plexiglas.
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MaryJane,
I see no reason to believe there is a vast conspiracy on the part of doctors, nurses, other medical personnel, the media and the governments many involved agencies, not to mention the many charitable groups and non-profit, non-governmental agencies and the foreign media and the many foreign governments involved to keep any information or data from the American public about Ebola. It just is not POSSIBLE, and there is no reason for it.
With all due respect, where do I begin to refute this.....after reading these last few chapters it is, and always has been possible for the government to hide, deceive, deflect, and control what the American public is to know. Transparency has always been a problem with administrations, especially with the present one, NSA, IRS, Benghazi, Fast and Furious, to name a few, and most recent, Gruber the Obamacare architect saying, "Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really really critical to get for the thing (Obamacare) to pass. Look, I wish Mark was right that we could make it all transparent, but I’d rather have this law than not."
Now here in this book we see: pg. 198 "Meanwhile, there was the larger question of politics." pg. 199 "General Russell was afraid the Army's lawyers would tell him that it could not, and should not, be done, so he answered the legal doubts with these words: "A policy of moving out and doing it, and asking forgiveness afterwards, is much better than a policy of asking permission and having it denied. You never ask a lawyer for permission to do something. We are going to do the needful, and the lawyers are going to tell us why it's legal."
pg. 214 "C.J. inspected the bags__it was a relief to see that the monkeys were double-bagged or triple-bagged-and decided to take them back to Fort Detrick and worry about health laws afterward.
I am appalled at how many times protocols have been broken, experts have been exposed to the virus, they are not transparent with chain of command, putting others at high risk. Media controls what the public gets, and the administration controls what the media gets. Always has been and always will be. Look at how the atomic bomb in Oak Ridge, Tenn. was kept under wraps from media and the public. Newspapers, internet, twitter, social sites, newscasters/reporters, radio, television, even White House staff, are all given ONLY what the administration wants it to have. And, when the leaks come out, it's always deny, deny, deny.
It's all about politics.......anything is possible in the White House!
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We are actually talking past each other here, Bellamarie.
I do not question our governments wish to maintain secrecy about many, many things, and most especially those which impact the safety of our nation.
What I am pointing out here in the matter of Ebola is that there are TOO MANY PEOPLE belonging to too many different arenas of our society involved in this epidemic. When you get, as I was trying to illustrate, a whole bunch of foreign governments, a myriad of the World Wide Media, thousands of health workers from many sectors of the globe, and many, many different private (non-governmental) organizations involved in either conducting the fight to contain the spread of this virus or reporting on the latest incidences of spreading, it is just flat out impossible to even give so much as a seconds consideration to the matter of attempting to do anything in secrecy.
One of the only ways in which anything that really matters has been carried out in secrecy is to follow the First Rule, which is that only those with an absolute need to know should be involved, and they should be carefully isolated, if at all possible.
This rabbit has long since jumped out of the hat and run away!
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Thank you MaryPage, for your response. I have come to a point where I have so little trust in anything to do with politics, government, administrations, military, media, foreign governments, and health care workers that nothing seems impossible to me anymore. My point made earlier on was, I have not heard anything on my news stations since the election took place about Ebola. I watch ABC, NBC, Fox News and also CBS and I am not getting anything. I knew nothing of the doctor who just recently died of the Ebola virus this past weekend. Maybe your local news channels are different. Good Morning America has turned into a pop culture/entertainment program. The Today Show with Matt Lauer has become a bit of a joke, it is so biased, but I must say CBS has stuck with some worthy news, just not heard anything lately on Ebola, not even on Fox News, which was accused of fear mongering for reporting on it so much.
The need to know theory, over centuries has truly become better known as a cover up. I think we have to agree to disagree, because we have differences of trust levels where this is concerned. I never used to be such a cynic, but after reading so many books from years gone by, and being more aware of what goes on in politics in the last decades, I have lost trust and faith in the "need to know for the safety of our nation theory."
Just as some here have questioned why Preston has chosen to write this book the way he has, and if he is being biased in how he is presenting his information, I question the people involved in dealing with Ebola today. I must say this, as quickly as Ebola became known with Mr. Duncan, and the others who contracted it here in the U.S., it seems to be contained and that is a good thing.
Have a good night!
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Viruses are frightening things aren't they? I just never knew. We often rather threw out the phrase of a prolonged cough or cold by saying it's probably a virus she picked up. But when you read that a virus can turn off, die, and then when come they comes in contact with a lliving system, they switch on and multiply.
In other words, they never die - they are always lurking and waiting for a cell to fasten onto, is this the way you read this? (p.178) Antibiotics don't kill them? Nothing kills them?
I agree with GINNY, I don't understand about people going crazy in the slammer for all the reasons she stated.
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Thoughts and ramblings through all the readings here.
My comments about Preston's style are half tongue-in-cheek, but I have enjoyed his writing and have found his personalizations useful and worth while. But throughout my reading I've thought "this guy all but tells us when they their teeth" and then by golly HE DID.
Joe McCormick comes across as a real S.O.B., but you have to admit, a very feisty and gutsy one. Even his not-so-best friend, C. j. Peters admired him for his decisiveness and his tenacity if not for anything else.
JoanK, you're our mystery expert here. Does this last part here make you think of the turf wars we so often hear about in crime novels? Local police departments up against the FBI or the DEA or State troopers? Here we have the ARmy vs. the CDC and to a lesser degree, the private corporation vs. the Army.
Do you think this was a big CF (I don't remember the exact words)? In Puerto Rico we used to say "que revolu" or in other words, a mess.?
One thing I do applaud, and that is the compromise made by the ARmy and CDC -- animals for the Army, humans for CDC.
We haven't finished the book yet, but one thing that I had never thought of with the Army was the degree of specialization, medically and scientifically, and I would assume in a lot of other categories also.
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OK, Ella, no expert here, but here is MY take on a virus after reading up on them hungrily ever since THE HOT ZONE came out:
A virus is not a life form as we learn about in Biology. It is neither plant nor animal. It is neither part of Botany nor Zoology. Bacteria are of the animal kingdom and fungi of the plant, but viruses stand alone. These three constitute our worst enemies, but whereas bacteria can also be our best friends and our saviors (small s), and we love some members of the fungi world, viruses are the deadliest of our foe. (Unless, of course, we very sensibly count man himself.)
It CAN be "killed," but we must think differently about what that means. If you kill any form of the animal kingdom, you still have a body to dispose of. If you kill a plant, you still have something of it left to dispose of.
You can "kill" a virus with chlorine (Clorox) and you have nothing. Nada. You have erased the virus.
"Dead" viruses do not return to life. They no longer exist. You can forget about them, but hey, there are billions upon billions upon trillions and gazillions more out there. There are a lot more of them than of us by unthinkable numbers.
And what is more, we cannot see them!
You are correct that viruses require invading a living cell in order to multiply. There are viruses that attack only plant life!
We know now WHAT they are and how to protect ourselves. We do not yet have them anywhere nearly completely understood. I am thinking we need to come to understand how these infinitesimally small snippets of discarded RNA can function at all. Once we learn the how and why of THAT, we should solve the problem. Maybe?
Wash your hands! Wash your hands! Wash your hands!
While viruses can only copy themselves in a living cell, they can last for a while between cells.
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pedln,
Thoughts and ramblings through all the readings here.
LOLOL Maybe we are starting to have effects from too much reading about Marburg and Ebola. I understand it can effect the brain and cause you to be delirious. ;)
The best I can say as far as the virus is concerned, it never goes away, once you have contracted it and survive you are not able to get it again, it jumps to a new host and amplifies. So far in this book, there is no known living creature they can say is the original host body. As best as it is summed up so far is......pg. 239
"Nancy settled into bed with Jerry. She said to him, "I have a gut feeling they're not going to be able to contain the virus in that one room." She told him she was worried that it could be spreading into the other rooms through the air. That virus was just so damned infective she didn't see how it would stay in one room. Something that Gene Johnson had once said to her came to her mind: "We don't really know what Ebola has done in the past, and we don't know what it might do in the future."
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Ella - if the only reason I found myself in the slammer was to spend some time in solitary confinement for whatever reason, I think I could get through it with the knowledge I'd be out soon...sooner or later.
But to be quarantined...to wait and see if I came down with one of these deadly viruses...I think I would lose it as time went by. The "what ifs"...what if I'm so hot everyone is afraid to come near me...to help? What if I'm left in here, where I'm no danger to anyone?
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Pedln - I can forgive Joe McCormick ANYTHING once he made the decision to let the plane leave without him and return that infected village in Sudan ...knowing that he might have the virus in his blood, and then working to help other Ebola victims all the while
The two who sniffed the tube continuing the virus - knew of the possibility they had somehow contracted it, but so dreaded the Slammer, they told no one...nor did they quarantine themselves elsewhere. I found that difficult to understand.
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For some reason my iPad is freezing up in the middle of a post - forcing me to lose the post and start again. Have you experienced this? I hadn't - until now. Will do short posts - before losing the thought - again!
Have you noticed there is no mention of Nancy Jaax's quick (and careless?) hands in these chapters? She works calmly, slowly, deliberately, changing her gloves often as she dissects these hot monkeys. She must have learned from that bloody-hand experience in Fr. Detrick with Gene Johnson.
But Preston repeats here that Jerry has not recovered from the loss of his brother. Understandable. It was a terrible murder. Why does Preston repeat it again here, unless to show that a depressed man is leading the mission into the monkey house - the same building where his wife is working! I'm as curious as you are to see how (if?) the depression has an impact in the coming chapters once the mission is underway. (If you have finished the book, please don't give this away! :D)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus
Those of you reading this book for the very first time and coming to it with perhaps very little information previously about viruses should be just about ready to learn more, and so I suggest using your search engines. The above is a good start. Some facts I just love:
virus is the Latin word for poison.
We knew nothing at all about them until 1892.
We did not see one until 1931.
We have learned just about everything we know to date about them in the latter half of the 20th century!
We know that there are millions of different viruses, and we have identified only a few thousand of these.
We still have only theories, no proof or definite knowledge, of what they are all about.
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The "quick, nervous hands" continues to irritate me. I have been told the same thing. People don't change. Perhaps she tries now to be more careful? But if she is a person with these quick nervous movements, I am willing to bet she still has them.
As you say, Pearson, perhaps she is trying to calm down and be more careful. Perhaps she thinks before trying to open a can with a knife...when you think about that incident, what character traits do you see in her?
I see a person who wants what they want then. Right then. No can opener? I shall hack it open. I want it open. The idea that I could cook something else, borrow a can opener from a neighbor, go to the store and buy a new one, is not for me: I want it NOW! That is sort of the determined type of person I see. What do you all see?
I am willing to bet anybody in here a lunch that she is absolutely no different from when she started because that's a character trait that would be hard to stifle. WHY he has stopped harping on it, if he has, I don't know. I need to read on.
MaryPage, I am new to viruses but Wikipedia would not be a place I wanted to learn about them, with all due respect. It's a cess pit of misinformation. (My opinion obviously but borne out many many times).
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Oh, I agree with you Ginny; about Wikipedia, that is. But so far, I have found nothing errant about the information they offer re viruses. But a search will bring you many thousands of sites to visit.
I still say each of you would find VIRUS HUNTER by C.J. Peters, the doctor in The Hot Zone, to be as thrilling an adventure into this planet full of viruses as has ever, to date, been written. And, again, every word is true, only this time the teller is a doctor who has spent his LIFE on these viruses, and is now 74 years old and still studying and teaching and lecturing and being interviewed and advising. I would venture to say he is now most definitely one of this globe's experts, if not THE expert!
The book will take you all around the world!
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I certainly wouldn't have opened that can with a knife, but going to a store to buy a can opener wouldn't have been an option for Nancy. It was suppertime, the children were hungry, and Jerry was out of town, so she would have had to bundle the hungry children in the car and take them with her. Surely she had something that wasn't in a can she could have substituted.
MaryPage, I am definitely going to read Virus Hunter; it's just my kind of thing. Thanks for finding it. It's going to have to wait its turn behind the other books I've already gotten out for this discussion, though.
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I read a lot of science books when I was growing up. One was Paul de Kruif's Microbe Hunters (I presume Peters deliberately echoed the title in his title). Another, very quirky one, was Rats, Lice, and History, by microbiologist Hans Zinsser. It's supposed to be a biography of typhus, but he doesn't even get there until halfway through the book. He wanders all over the place, talking about how diseases have changed history, determined the outcome of battles, appeared and disappeared, etc, all in a very convoluted style, full of literary references. I suspect it's totally unreadable now, the style dated, the references obscure, and the science 80 years out of date, but it was a good introduction to the problems of fighting diseases.
The first page of this article describes it well:
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/11/3/pdfs/ad-1103.pdf (http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/11/3/pdfs/ad-1103.pdf)
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After this book, I will be taking a break from Ebola books. This book has really unsettled me in so many ways. I am glad I am reading it, because it's a great way to be informed, but I am just frustrated with all the knowledge. Does that make any sense at all?
Maybe it's because of coming off of reading The Girls of Atomic City, going right into this one, learning more things that cause me pause and lack of trust, and safety. I agree with Sir Francis Bacon, "Knowledge is Power", but it's what we do with that power that is tricky.
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Oh, Bellamarie, I know so well the emotions you are describing. And yes, I think it is hard for all humans, and most especially mothers and grandmothers who spend more time fretting about the futures ahead of the children and grandchildren they will leave behind than do most men. All of the many threats to their well being and safety in the decades ahead. We start when they are born and worry about their feeding schedules, their shots, when they will turn over, sit up, walk, get potty trained, learn to talk, learn to tie their shoes, manage on their own in kindergarten, drive the family car on their own, handle themselves in college, and so on and on. We find so very many things in our very ordinary everyday lives to imagine them victims of, to add on such real life items as nuclear attacks, biological attacks, terrorist shootings in public places, rampant viruses or bacteria epidemics becomes unbearable.
Still, I do feel we owe it to ourselves and the overall family and community well being to read what the experts have to tell us in laymen's terms. Why do I stress this despite a sense of burnout and wanting to dive into an escapist novel instead? Because I feel knowledge brings a sense of empowerment and engenders much less panic in the long run. When we truly KNOW our enemy, we are achieving more than half the list of requirements to ward off their attacks. This is my true belief: we are endowed with the stuff to enable us to rise up and meet the foe and beat them with our higher intellects, and this is the challenge we are born to and the measurement of who we are.
At my great age, I have watched many presidents, and have seen every single one of them, and most especially the two-termers, age at from 2 to 3 times the normal rate. Look at pictures of George W. Bush being sworn in for the first time, and photos of his last State of the Union address. Now look at B. Obama's swearing in and a photo taken this week. The stress of what they know is a killer for any human being. The rest of us own much shorter lists of worries and knowledge!
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Unfortunately the panic button has been activated in the US. I just read tonight that fear of ebola has surpassed the fear of heart disease and cancer. The odds of anyone dying in this country from ebola are extremely low. As someone put it, more people have been married to Kim Kardashian than have died of ebola. More people have died in this country from bubonic plague than have died from ebola. More people have died from the hantavirus than have died from ebola. OK, you get the picture. Yes, ebola is something to respect. Precautions should be taken. Travel to areas where the disease is prevalent should not be undertaken lightly. But I am dismayed by this country's reaction to the disease. I think it says more about the intelligence of Americans than it does about the threat of the disease. It's not a pretty picture.
In answer to your question about plague and hantavirus, Ginny, they are two separate disease. The hantavirus is a newer disease, but more deadly than plague, simply because we know less about it. New Mexico seems to be unfortunate in that both diseases have done pretty well here. People contract hantavirus by inhaling particles of deer mouse droppings. That isn't is hard to do as one might think. People who get the sudden urge to clean out an old shed my go in there unprotected, and inadvertently inhale particles from mouse droppings. It affects the respiratory system, and until treatment became effective, it was 100% fatal. All our patients in NM go to UNM Hospital because they are set up to deal with it. The trick is getting it diagnosed in time. Plague (bubonic) has been around for a very long time. People contract it from fleas, usually by handling a dead or dying rodent. However, cats and dogs can get plague the same way people do, so we have to watch our animals carefully.
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Precisely! And yes, the crazy things being said reflect on the state of our overall intelligence and ability to logically analyze situations and relate them to the world around us.
I think you are especially one who would enjoy VIRUS HUNTER, but then again, if you live in New Mexico you have probably already read it, as Doctor Peters starts off Chapter I with his being one of the very first to be called out there to the "new" killer disease breaking out in the Navajo dwellings back in 1993, and he tells us of the frantic rush to try and find out what it was. Then he tells of the very long and fascinating history of the virus, which is named for a river in China. They did not know what it WAS centuries ago, but what the tribal medicine men and healers told them (they had no written language, but memorized their history by oral tradition, the way we did thousands of years ago) was that every x number of years over the centuries, whenever there was an especially robust harvest of pine nuts, the deer mice population multiplied hugely, and strangely, people died with the same symptoms, and BINGO! The medical team sent out there guessed (correctly) where the resevoir for this killer virus was.
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hysteria2,
But I am dismayed by this country's reaction to the disease. I think it says more about the intelligence of Americans than it does about the threat of the disease. It's not a pretty picture.
With all due respect, I just don't think this is a fair statement. This is the second time this week I have heard the American people's intelligence come into question. Gruber felt Americans were stupid, and so transparency with Obamacare was not necessary, and now we are questioned for having fear with an unknown killing virus in our country, when just days before the first case came to our country our president went on national television and said:
"First and foremost, I want the American people to know that our experts, here at the CDC and across our government, agree that the chances of an Ebola outbreak here in the United States are extremely low. "
"Now, here’s the hard truth: In West Africa, Ebola is now an epidemic of the likes that we have not seen before. It’s spiraling out of control. It is getting worse. It’s spreading faster and exponentially. Today, thousands of people in West Africa are infected. That number could rapidly grow to tens of thousands. And if the outbreak is not stopped now, we could be looking at hundreds of thousands of people infected, with profound political and economic and security implications for all of us. So this is an epidemic that is not just a threat to regional security -- it’s a potential threat to global security if these countries break down, if their economies break down, if people panic. That has profound effects on all of us, even if we are not directly contracting the disease."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/09/16/remarks-president-ebola-outbreak
Americans reacted because of the inaction of the people who are suppose to be reassuring us they are in control of things. The way the president, CDC, health officials, FFA, and all the others who are experts and hold positions to keep us safe reacted and showed lack of intelligence, safety, caution, and knowledge, it gave Americans due cause to be afraid of Ebola once it entered the U.S. We had so much controversy it felt like no one seemed to really know protocol, proper containment, or even how or if to put a ban on those entering the U.S. from the infected areas, who had worked directly with dying Ebola patients in Liberia, Sierra Leone and in Guinea. We were looking for reassurance and leadership and there was very little. Once Duncan died in the Dallas hospital, the CDC was scrambling around trying to figure out how the nurse got infected. They changed the protocol on how to dress when treating patients. Dr, Freidman head of the CDC handled things so poorly, Obama had to appoint a Czar, and no one has heard from Dr. Friedman since, or the Czar, for that matter.
Americans are more intelligent than we are given credit for.
Reading this book, I can assess the same type of situations were happening back when this first broke out in 1976. Just look at how badly these experts in The Hot Zone were handling things. Dead infected monkeys being put into garbage bags and driven around in the trunk of a car, samples of infected serum sent over in cups, meat from infected monkeys sent by courier in tin foil. Possible infected people working directly with infected patients and monkeys not being contained. They didn't want to be put in the slammer. That reminded me of the nurse refusing to be contained just recently. The arrogance, and risks, these people took, possibly putting Americans in harm's way, was incredible. Maybe they got lucky, and it did not cause an outbreak, but who were they to decide to be so careless, and roll the dice for possibly thousands of lives? Ughhhh..... Maybe some of our experts today, should have been reading these books we are, they could of learned what to do, and what NOT to do.
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There are a number of examples of rule-breaking in this story, some justified, some not. Jahrling and Geisbert were wrong to hide their exposure. The worst examples of bad sample handling were not done by the Army, but by Dan Dalgard, the veterinarian at Reston. He's the one who sent the samples wrapped in tinfoil, and when Jahrling got them, he promptly called Dalgard and told him how to send samples. It was also Dalgard who gave them the dead monkeys in garbage bags. Peters and Nancy Jaax were appalled when they saw this casual packing, but what could they do? They didn't have any authority over Dalgard, and had had trouble coaxing him to cooperate. If they had sent the monkeys back for better packing, Dalgard would probably just have told them to go away. They could have done whatever was needed to get official authority to take the samples, a search warrant or whatever, but that would have taken time, and the monkeys would rapidly decompose in the meantime, and it would insure poor cooperation from then on.
At this point the Army is working as rapidly as they can, to figure out just what is going on with the monkeys, and how to deal with the problem quickly, before humans are endangered.
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My heart goes out to Dan Dalgard. As Preston portrays him, a good-hearted man, with the well-being of the monkeys foremost in his mind. He just didn't have the experience to handle an Ebola situation. But who did? I remember the author mentioning some of the characters in the book were given other names. I hope Dan Dalgard was one of them? So much blame is placed at this feet. Does anyone remember that?
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The tension in the room must have been unbearable - as the CDC and the Army discuss the responsibility for the Reston monkey house. Preston writes "the CDC is the federal agency with the Congressional mandate to control human disease. This is its lawful job. The Army doesn't have a mandate to fight virusus on American soil BUT it has the capablility and the expertise to do it."
I was especially interested in General Russell's opinion:
" This was a job for soldiers operating under a chanin of command....there would be a need for people trained in biohazard work. They would have to be young, without families, willing to risk their lives...They would have to be ready to die."
Reading this made me think of the soldiers we've sent to West Africa. While I am aware they are not working with Ebola patients directly, they are going into infected areas - and surely must have received some sort of training to protect themselves from infection - to know the signs of the disease. Are they next going to Sierra Leone, does anyone know? And are they "young, without families, willing to risk their lives?"
Do any of you know more about these several thousands of young men sent to West Africa?
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Dalgard seems a bit of an inigma to me. He's a doctor of vet. medicine, his specialty is primates. When the Army diagnosed the monkey illness he said he had never heard of ebola. That kind of surprised me. Was he familiar with Marburg? I can't remember. He was not in charge of The Monkey HOuse, but was, as described earlier by Preston "on call." His office was on Leesburag Pike and he was employed by Hazelton Corning. Just what was his position? What were his normal duties before the monkey explosion. And I wondered also if he had a private practice on the side.
At the same time, he showed great concern for the monkeys, checking and tending them instead of spending time on his favorite hobby of clock-fixing.
Is it fair to compare and expect from him the same concern and reactions as the Army doctors and vets who specialize in viruses. He is not a Gene Johnson (below -- will add to my chart)
Gene Johnson – civilian biohazard expert; in charge of Ebola research program at the Institute; deathly afraid of Ebola. Mapped Kitum Cave in 1986. 1988 – persuaded Army to sponsor U.S. –Kenya expedition searching for viruses in Kitum Cave. He considered the expedition a failure because they didn’t find anything and had to euthanize healthy monkeys.
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Toward the end of VIRUS HUNTER, Doctor Peters gives another complete rundown, from his perspective obviously, not as a reporter (as we have in Preston), but as a participant, and all the same people are involved. I think you will be interested, as the way different people relate the same story is always interesting.
Dr. Peters writes of worrying about our hospital and medical personnel lacking the training and experience needed to treat patients with these dread viruses. He wrote in 1997, and foresaw the very difficulties those nurses had in taking care of the Ebola patient in Dallas. A brief class or an even briefer telling is not a sufficient safeguard, and you cannot count on people reading handouts and such like; there must be practicing with the equipment over and over until employees can prove their full expertise. But the hospitals complain that all of these precautions will bankrupt them. Administration's eye always goes to the bottom line and winds up taking a Big Gamble with lives. What they are really doing is hoping such a virus will never come to THEIR institution!
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An interesting interview with Dan Dalgard (April 2013) -- actually a transcript of his comments made to someone.
Dalgard Interview (https://prezi.com/s_3w7tiff9sj/dan-dalgard/)
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With all due respect, I just don't think this is a fair statement. This is the second time this week I have heard the American people's intelligence come into question.
Bellamarie, with all due respect, I stand by my statement. Right before the election FOX and right wing talk radio sought to gain political advantage by using this terrible illness to invoke fear in the American people and discredit President Obama and his administration. People hear on TV and radio that this is something to be deathly afraid of. They pay no attention to the actual numbers. (Having been in healthcare for 30+ years, it does not surprise me at all the the ER sent Mr. Duncan home the first time with antibiotics. This happens in ERs all across the country very frequently. It is not uncommon for a woman with chest pain to be sent home because the myth that premenopausal women don't have heart attacks persists. ERs are so crowded, and the staff has to see as many patients as possible in a short period of time. The second time he was admitted he was properly cared for; however, the disease was so far advanced there was no turning back. We may never know how the 2 nurses became infected. There may have been a break in protocol. Clearly ebola is a disease we have never seen before in our ERs and ICUs. Healthcare personnel had to learn a great deal in a very short period of time. Great progress has been made, but until the disease is eradicated, vigorous research and careful and through monitoring and treatment must be the goal. The news media needs to act responsibly and must report the news without inciting fear. Hospitals and doctors learned very quickly how to contain and treat ebola victims. That is why the doctor in NY and the journalist who was treated in Nebraska survived. (There are other survivors as well who were successfully treated in the US.) That is why the two nurses from Dallas survived. It was very unfortunate that two governors who had no background in healthcare or epidemiology attempted to quarantine a healthy nurse. That just served to spread more panic unnecessarily. The administration is correct in their statement that travel bans are unnecessary and may be detrimental to the control of the disease. So back to the premise that Americans are lacking in intelligence in this matter. They hear bits and pieces on the news, which is often politically biased depending upon which network they get their news from. Most lay people don't even know the difference between a bacteria and a virus. But they are afraid. So much so that ebola has displaced heart disease and cancer on the list of health scares. There is nothing worse than panic among people who don't have all the facts. The American people have a role in this as well. It is their duty to be proactive and research the disease on their own. So many people think that if they see something in a newspaper or on TV, then it must be true. If you compare our public school system with that of 50 years ago, you will see that learning today is quite different. Many students today do not have the same level of knowledge that their counterparts in the past had. The quality of our education system has declined, and students spend excessive time watching TV and playing video games, with little guidance from their parents. Colleges and universities lament that incoming students are woefully unprepared to succeed in college level classes. Unfortunately, like it or not, the dumbing down of America has occurred and will continue until improvements in the system and an increase in parental involvement occur.
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Pedln, I'm afraid that link, that interview, gives away what became of Dan Dalgard at the time we're reading. Some of us have not finished the book yet... I will definitely read it when I learn what became of Dan Dalgard after the monkey house defection.
I went searching for the training the troops received when heading to West Africa in October...Was four hours enough in your estimation, hysteria2?
Do we have any of these young troups in Sierra Leone today?
"Soldiers Receive Just Four Hours Hazmat Training Before leaving for Liberia" (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2798194/u-s-soldiers-flown-liberia-just-four-hours-hazmat-training-ebola-death-toll-hits-4-546.html)
I noticed the photos in this link - of the YOUNG MEN receiving "training" as they stand on the tarmack ready to board planes. I also see one young man quoted as "being kind of scared."
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This is all I have time for today:
WHO: Ebola transmission 'intense' in Sierra Leone photo
FREETOWN, Sierra Leone (AP) — The spread of Ebola remains "intense" in most of Sierra Leone even as things have improved somewhat in the two other countries hardest hit, the World Health Organization says. Some 168 new confirmed cases emerged in a single week in Sierra Leone's capital
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I'm afraid that link, that interview, gives away what became of Dan Dalgard at the time we're reading
Actually it doesn't, JoanP. Dalgard more or less descrilbes his actions and feelings up to when he first contacted Peter Jahrling. I've been fishing this morning, looking for "where are they now" type articles and had NO LUCK with Dalgard.
I've also been wondering what happened to Hazelton Reston Products, finding relatively scant info. But you may want to wait until you've finished the book before you read it. It is quite an interesting summary. (I gotta put 'em up when I find 'em or I'll never get back to them.)
Reston Hot Zone - 20 Years Later (https://ispub.com/IJPRM/2/1/12768)
Remember FDR -- The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. I think American intelligence is fine. Ignorance, understanding, education may be problem areas. And I think the media contributes to that. (can't blame the Army for wanting to keep reporters out). We've seen it with ebola; right now we're seeing it in another example in my state, - "Listen in for the next episode of grand jury. Will Officer Wilson have to flee for his life?"
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We will have to agree to disagree Hysteria2. I feel Americans are more educated and informed due to internet, media, social networks, and more devices and means of information available. I worked in education for over 30 yrs myself, and began the first technology lab in our school, it gave our students the means to research for information better than ever before. The government just can't get away with hiding as much as it used to now. Americans are far more intelligent today. We don't have to use the television as our main or only source for information, so the biased networks who refuse to not report or spoon feed us what the administration wants us to hear is not working any longer. You mention Fox News, did you know that it is the network that more Americans tuned into throughout the first week of Ebola in our country, beating all other networks?
Pedln, I so agree with you. Watching The View yesterday and hearing Rosie O'Donnell judge Officer William, and Nicole reminding Rosie, she does not know all the facts because she was not in the grand jury room, gave me much to be concerned about for Ferguson, and the rest of the country for that matter.
Mary Page, Indeed, the hospitals are worried about budgeting for the proper equipment and classes to teach their workers on procedure and protocol. I have many friends and relatives who work in our local hospitals and ERs, and I asked if they had been given classes, equipment and protocol, and they said NO, and were worried what would happen if an Ebola patient did indeed come to their ER. Smoke and mirrors from the CDC throughout the time Duncan died even til now. Still nothing in our local hospitals...so yes, they have legitimate reason to fear.
Dr. Friedman in an interview with Megyn Kelly said he would have no problem treating Ebola patients without all areas of the body covered, yet the next day they show him if full hazmat suit, and then new rules and protocol were issued:
In trying to understand how the nurses contracted the virus from Mr. Duncan, I think this article will help. They have revised protocol and equipment, with adding a shadow person to help dress and undress. As of today, people I talk to who work in our area hospitals in the ER, have not received training or equipment. I am praying we have this under control.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/20/cdc-new-protocol/17638161/
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online Will you join us?
The Hot Zone: A Terrifying True Story
by Richard Preston
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hotzone/hotzonecover.jpg) |
It reads like a detective thriller, but it's a true story--how the Ebola virus was discovered, and what happened when it turned up in a research lab just a few miles from Washington, DC.
"When Richard Preston's novel "The Hot Zone" was published in 1995, it was, for many, their first introduction to the deadly Ebola and Marburg viruses.
Nearly two decades later, Ebola has infected hundreds of people in three countries across West Africa, in what is considered the worst outbreak in history. As fear over the deadly virus grows, we need a reminder of what we learned so long ago from Preston." British Broadcasting Corporation BBC
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DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PART ONE: The Shadow of Mount Elgon
Nov. 1 - 5~ First three chapters--Something in the Forest, Jumper, Diagnosis (Africa, 1980)
Nov. 6-9~ Next three chapters--A Woman and a Soldier, Project Ebola, Total Immersion (Maryland, 1983)
Nov 10-13~ Last three chapters--Ebola River(Africa, 1976), Cardinal(Africa, 1987), Going Deep
PART TWO: The Monkey House
Nov. 14-17~ First seven chapters--Reston, Into Level Three, Exposure, Thanksgiving, Medusa, The First Angel, The Second Angel (Maryland, Virginia, 1989)
Nov. 17-21~ Last six chapters--Chain of Command, Garbage Bags, Space Walk, Shoot-out, The Mission, Reconnaissnce
PART THREE: Smashdown
Nov. 22-?~ Insertion, A Man Down, 91-Tangos, Inside, A Bad Day, Decon, The Most Dangerous Strain
For Your Consideration
Nov. 14-?
1. As you follow the search for answers at Reston and Fort Detrick, what things did people do wrong? What did they do right?
2. What did you think of the strange techniques needed for electron microscopy?
3. Could you have faced three weeks in the Slammer? What makes it so hard to tolerate?
RELEVANT LINKS:
Prediscussion (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4472.40)
BBC Ebola Primer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28754546)
Mt. Elgon National Park (http://ugandawildlife.org/explore-our-parks/parks-by-name-a-z/mount-elgon-national-park)
Discussion Leader: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net )
I'm not a bit surprised that Fox News had the most viewers concerning ebola. They probably have the most viewers period. But that doesn't mean their viewers are informed. In fact, a study was done a while back which showed that people who watched no news at all were better informed than people who got their news from Fox. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the study, but I heard it several times. And yes, we will have to agree to disagree. I don't feel people are better educated today. True, a vast amount of information is available via the internet and social media. And so is a great deal of misinformation. Many people who partake of this type of media aren't intelligent enough to distinguish fact from fiction.
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I never got around to putting up questions for this section, but you're answering a lot of them anyway. But here's one: what did you think of that turf war between USAMRIID and CDC, and the clashing personalities? Have you experience that sort of thing? Was the right decision made in this case?
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Turf wars are nothing new. They have been going on since this government was formed and are certainly not unique to the US. No one wants to be considered subordinate to another entity. That is human nature. Anyone who who has been in the workforce has experienced this. So the fact that turf wars and personality clashes emerged between USAMRIID and the CDC is not surprising. Ideally turf wars should not be occurring when during a crisis situation. Human nature, however, wins out every time.
One other question that I wanted to address is the idea of spending 3 weeks in "The Slammer." I can see how people would go nuts in such a confined environment, especially not knowing if they would become symptomatic and then finally succumb to the disease. Confinement and uncertainty are enough to rattle the most rational person. I know I would have lost it, but then I would have had problems with the spacesuit. Movement within the suit was very limited. On top of that, there was the noise of the air system and the constant worry of a break in the system, such as the one experienced by Nancy Jaax. I take my hat off to those people who put themselves in this position in order to eradicate these dangerous diseases.
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Yes, I think their decision was the best one after they concluded what I would call a "pissing war." Excuse my choice of words, but that is what my mother always said, when she saw men arguing over something dealing with power of who gets what. C. J. Peter and Joe McCormick sure had no love lost between the two of them.
pg. 404 "A compromise seemed to be the best solution. the general and Fred Murphy quickly worked out the deal, while McCormick and Peters stared at each other with little to say. It was agreed that the C.D.C. would manage the human-health aspects of the outbreak and would direct the care of any human patients. The Army would handle the monkeys and the monkey house, which was the nest of the outbreak."
As far as spending three weeks in "the slammer," I felt it is the responsible, moral and honorable thing any person working with any deadly virus should be willing to do, if they feel could have been exposed/infected with the virus. Those who sign up to work with the virus know the protocol, rules and expectations. If they have any problems with any part of following them, they should not be a part of this work.
The definition of the "slammer" is, (Military slang.) The Biosafety Level 4 containment hospital at USAMRIID.
By this definition it does not give me any indication it is like a prison solitary confinement, in a small area with no comforts. It is strictly for precaution and observation.
The reason the two did not want to reveal they had whiffed or sniffed the tube, which could cause them to be placed in the slammer, was more to do with they would miss the opportunity for getting credit for the discovery of the virus, if someone else were able to be successful in doing so, during their three week quarantine. Regardless of their reasons, they were taking a huge risk, and possibly infecting others they came in contact with, by keeping it hidden for fear of confinement.
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A new book I'd never heard of until Barnes & Noble emailed me this:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/review/ebola-the-natural-and-human-history-of-a-deadly-virus/?sourceId=L000015661&cm_
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Wow! If you go to Barnes & Noble (their official site) and you do their search, choosing BOOKS only, and you put in the Title EBOLA, you get dozens and dozens and dozens of books! Who knew?
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Bellamarie, that's really the appropriate term for what was going on in that conference. We're hearing it from the side that won, but I agree the decision was correct. Each side got the part of the action where their strengths lay.
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MaryPage, the book in your link, Ebola, by David Quamman, is the one mentioned in a New Yorker article posted toward the start of our discussion. It's a slim thing, 111 pages. He pulled some material from an earlier book, Spillover, about a number of animal viruses newly infecting humans, and amplified it to bring it up to date and make it relevant for the current epidemic. He's scornful of Preston's gruesome description of the disease, saying it's overblown, but other things I've read suggest that mostly the truth is in the middle--Preston describing worst-case scenarios, and Quamman being too dismissive.
Quamman describes a woman having to go into the Slammer. It's not someone we meet in this book; it happens 10 or 12 years later. She manages to keep her sanity, with the help of video visits with her family, a fellow worker who brings her donuts when she enters to draw blood, and a dinner of carryout every night from her choice of Frederick restaurants. (USAMRIID has no cafeteria, so they had to import her meals.) The experience doesn't sour her on research; she fights her way through re-certification, and goes back as soon as she can. The Slammer got its name from the heavy door, which slams loudly behind you.
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I would like to gently say that although I don't want to get in a long drawn out heated slug fest over this corollary issue brought up by a poster I really do have to say that I agree with hysteria2 about the state of education today. I also feel that it is woefully inferior to that of the past. I don't know why. Anybody can see a copy of McGuffey's (sp) Reader and see the difference. Or read Mary Chestnut's letters from the 1800's, and see the difference.
It's true that there is so much more now to learn and know, and it's true that the internet and the media bombard us with inconsequential stuff continually (do we really want to see Kim Kardashians's behind? I'm not a proctologist) but what it seems to mean is that we are inundated with well meaning garbage. This is fed, in large part, I believe, by our own laziness, and the need to know it instantly, we're an instant culture now, without much work, and the ready availability of Wiki Wackia. We are too lazy to look for something authoritative, we might have to go in 10 search pages, let's settle for the first one. If it's online it must be true, right? I know it's true I see it in more than one website. Faugh.
I just came from another Latin "teaching" site where the instructor, who has no credentials in Latin whatsoever, but who means well ..I guess...is mispronouncing every other word and making his own unique contribution to Caesar's Gallic Wars. It's appalling. It's junk. But it passes for "knowledge" today. And it's not just one field, it's all of them.
Maybe there's so much to know now nobody can learn it all? Jack of all Trades, Master of None?
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I agree with all of that. We've gotten sloppy. People are just as smart as ever, but they are getting out of the habit of thinking things through, and knowing anything in depth.
Ginny, I've always wondered, how do we know how Latin was pronounced?
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Hysteria2,
In fact, a study was done a while back which showed that people who watched no news at all were better informed than people who got their news from Fox. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the study, but I heard it several times.
I would be very interested in seeing this study you speak of, and the people who were included in this study. I suspect it would include a large number of progressive liberals, who are okay with mainstream media refusing to report anything negative where this administration is concerned. It's sad to see well educated, respected reporters turn into Obama's lap dogs. The newsworthy stations have turned into pop culture and celebrity news, since they have chosen to NOT report the real news any longer. Fox News is a reputable station, and I can say I watch because it is the only station that will cover what really is going on. They are willing to reveal the dishonesty and lack of transparency of this administration. Last night when Obama gave his unilateral executive amnesty order speech, Fox News is the ONLY channel that covered it, because the other stations found it way too political. Fox News is the most trusted and leading station watched for news.
TV Is Americans' Main Source of News
Preferred news source varies by age, education, and politics, among other factors
These results are based on a Gallup poll of 2,048 national adults conducted June 20-24, in which Americans were asked to say, unaided, what they consider to be their main source of news about U.S. and global events.
More than half the references to television are general, with 26% simply saying they watch television or TV news, 4% saying they watch local TV news, and 2% saying they watch the "evening news." The two leading 24-hour cable news channels -- Fox News and CNN -- are named by 8% and 7%, respectively. However, no other specific channel -- including MSNBC, PBS, BBC, and all of the U.S. broadcast networks that once dominated the news landscape -- is mentioned by more than 1% of Americans.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/163412/americans-main-source-news.aspx
Hysteria2, Many people who partake of this type of media aren't intelligent enough to distinguish fact from fiction.
It's difficult to respond to such a personal, insensitive statement. Again, we will have to agree to disagree.
PatH., People are just as smart as ever, but they are getting out of the habit of thinking things through, and knowing anything in depth.
I agree, people are not taking the time to really investigate and learn the depth of things. With Sirus/Google all you have to do is speak into the mic and ask a question and it's instantly there. This world runs on instant everything. Calculators replaced doing the math, spell check replaced looking into a dictionary, Wikipedia has replaced looking in encyclopedias, online games have replaced interactive board games, texting has replaced actually hearing someone's voice on a phone, online book clubs have replaced getting together in a room physically sitting with people so you can see their facial expressions and hear their voices, and the list goes on and on. I feel it is causing our children to become less attentive, and adults to be less sensitive to respecting others differences of opinions. It's so easy to type into a computer insults and false information since you do not actually have to be accountable. It's out there for all to see, and whether it is true or not, it creates an image in others it is so. I watch Jesse Waters from the Bill O'Reilly Show go to prestigious colleges, where parents are paying $50,000 a year for their young adult to be educated, and these students can't even recognize the Vice President of the United States, tell you what Ebola is, thinks ISIS is an app, and don't have a clue where Liberia is located, yet these same students will graduate, many with honors, and go on to become doctors, lawyers, scientists, biologists, teachers, nurses, accountants, computer programmers, architects, etc. So while they may not be worldly or politically informed, that does not discredit the fact they are educated. I would like any one of us in this book club try to do the Math problems my fourth grade grandchild is doing. I can almost bet, because of the method they are using today in the classrooms, none of us would understand it. So, while there were very intelligent people throughout the centuries, I do believe we have just as many well educated, intelligent people today.
This might be a good time to go on to the next chapters, and back to discussing "The Hot Zone"
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BellaMarie, I really so did not want to get into this aspect of our discussion, but feel I must. I watched the President on PBS last night; they and most other stations interrupted their planned programming in order to present his speech. One of the main points he made in that speech was that he is NOT offering amnesty. No amnesty at all.
There was immediate follow up discussion on many stations, and it went on all night long on some. When I rose this morning and turned on Morning Joe on MSNBC, it was all they were talking about. So I do not get it that only FOX was offering any news on that subject?
I, personally, find FOX very akin to a sensational scandal mongering tabloid newspaper, and feel deeply that I cannot trust their allegations.
I also constantly watch David Muir (just recently Diane Sawyer) on ABC and Brian Williams on NBC and Scott Pelley on CBS. All give constant information about Ebola and all other important news.
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This might be a good time to go on to the next chapters, and back to discussing "The Hot Zone"
I agree. Lets get back to the main subject, and on to the next chapters.
We have a decision to make. The next section, Smashdown, is about a hundred pages. We've been reading 50 page chunks, but this section is mostly one continuous action story, and reads fast, and there is less to say about a lot of the chapters. Shall we read it all in one chunk? It makes sense unless you don't want to read that fast, and I think a lot of you have already read ahead. I'll go by what everyone says by the end of the day. If we split it, the first chunk will be 4 chapters--Insertion, A Man Down, 91-Tangos, and Inside.
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Thank you Ginny for providing the facts about my statements concerning American education.
I am finding that the more I get into The Hot Zone, the more I want to keep reading. So my intention is to go ahead and finish the book. (I never was very patient when it comes waiting until the end to find out what happens. I have pulled some all nighters finishing mysteries.) So however everyone else wants to divide it up is fine by me.
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I am just so excited that you are all feeling so fervent about The Hot Zone, because I have felt for simply years and years now that it is one of those books that has truly made a CONTRIBUTION to the readers view of this world we all inhabit.
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Mary Page,
I, personally, find FOX very akin to a sensational scandal mongering tabloid newspaper, and feel deeply that I cannot trust their allegations.
According to the Gallup and other polls, Fox is the most trusted and watched. You, and others who feel this way are among the minority. We all have our own personal preferences and that is okay, thanks for weighing in. ;)
My dvr was set for some of the shows on these stations and they aired as usual.
http://deadline.com/2014/11/obama-us-immigration-primetime-speech-univision-1201289203/
https://deadline.com/2014/11/obama-immigration-primetime-speech-tv-networks-1201291124/
PatH., I am okay with how ever everyone decides to continue with the following chapters. I have not read ahead, so I'm going to begin the next four that you have mentioned, and if we go further that is fine with me.
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Can you imagine living as Nancy Jaxx? I would be in a mental institution if I were her; not only does she work with life-threatening virus all day - but to go home to her children (forget how many!) and then dealing with cats and dogs plus a screeching parrot.
And then at work she has to worry about the monkeys - they grab at your face and head if you give them a chance, they are intelligent and fast!!
No way!
I don't know where in the book we are, I finished it and just made some notes along the way.
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I agree with you, Ella. Life as Nancy Jaax would be intense but never boring! She is one who really needs to shut the door when she leaves for the day (or night as it usually is in her case) and not take her work home with her. However, keep in mind that veterinary school takes concentration, discipline and intelligence. So her background does lend itself to her chosen career path.
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The ayes have it; we'll take all of part three, Smashdown, at once. (JoanK's vote was received by twin ESP, i. e. telephone.) The chapters are in the heading. It's an exciting section, and a fast read. If we take our usual 4-5 days, that will leave time for the last section plus some commentary about Ebola history since the book, the current situation, and whatever.
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I feel it is causing our children to become less attentive, and adults to be less sensitive to respecting others differences of opinions. It's so easy to type into a computer insults and false information since you do not actually have to be accountable.
This is an interesting point, and in the spirit of the coming season, I would like to take this opportunity to gently remind all the participants involved in this discussion that SeniorLearn is actually not a public unattended internet site, it is privately held, and the people posting here do have to be accountable, not only for courtesy and cordial discussion, but for lapses in same.
When you registered for this site you agreed to the terms and conditions of this site, and one of them was Anyone who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to notify an administrator or moderator of this forum immediately. The staff and the owner of this forum reserve the right to remove objectionable content, within a reasonable time frame, if they determine that removal is necessary
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Some of us may have forgotten or perhaps we never knew that ad hominem remarks are not desired in any of our boards, a rule which we've had in force since 1986 when the Books discussions were first founded. This, then, is a reminder notice, and it will be the only one, that ad hominem remarks will not be tolerated and will be removed at the sole discretion of the Admin.
Anyone having a question on this issue may take it up with the Administration.
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MaryPage, I'm sorry, I messed up your post #205. In the course of selecting part of it to quote, I accidentally pushed the wrong button, and deleted some of it. It was your reference to the Barnes and Noble review of Quamman's book. I'm very sorry. I'm not allowed to do that, and this is the first time I've goofed in that way.
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Wow! If you go to Barnes & Noble (their official site) and you do their search, choosing BOOKS only, and you put in the Title EBOLA, you get dozens and dozens and dozens of books! Who knew?
It looks like one could spend a month or so reading about Ebola until one's brain popped. In fact, I'm well on the way to it. I bought Quamman's slim book, and got his Spillover from the library. And after telling you I wasn't going to read Virus Hunter just yet, I'm well into it.
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A month or so! I've been into viruses for 19 years now, and there is just no end to new information. No end.
I have two major pillars of fixation about them in my head: one is that they have been around forever, and we are just now scratching the surface of learning about them. The other is that we will never be able to destroy them, but can learn to protect ourselves from the ones who are dangerous to our existence.
Microbiology has got to be one of the most fascinating disciplines there is. One thing I note crops up over and over and yet over again: too many human beings insist upon being prescribed with antibiotics for sicknesses caused entirely by viruses, and antibiotics cannot so much as touch viruses, but using them makes the bacteria present within our bodies react and mutate and learn to build up defenses against them which ultimately are harmful to the human race because when a disease comes along that IS caused by bacteria, we have no arsenal to kill them and save ourselves! All because of people, in their ignorance, insisting upon being given antibiotics and doctors giving in to them. So sad, so sad, how we, as a species, insist upon going around shooting ourselves in the foot continuously.
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MARYPAGE, my daughter who has a Ph.D. in Nursing Science, attended an all-day conference yesterday on VIRUSES. In our nightly phone conversation I neglected to ask pertinent questions, darn! She did say it was an aabsolutely fascinating conference.
You are right there is no end to new information apparently.
I was always told, humorously I suppose, that when all is erased from the earth (by whatever means) that cockroaches would prevail. Now perhaps we can say a virus may linger on a cockroach?
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Ella, you gave me my laugh for the day. Yes, I'm sure there will be viruses on the ruling cockroaches.
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Pedln gave us a link to an article bringing the Jaax history up to date, which many of us didn't read because it contained spoilers. Once we've read this section, there won't be spoilers, so here's the link again.
http://www.kansas.com/news/local/article3662605.html (http://www.kansas.com/news/local/article3662605.html)
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A month or so! I've been into viruses for 19 years now, and there is just no end to new information. No end.
Microbiology has got to be one of the most fascinating disciplines there is. One thing I note crops up over and over and yet over again: too many human beings insist upon being prescribed with antibiotics for sicknesses caused entirely by viruses, and antibiotics cannot so much as touch viruses, but using them makes the bacteria present within our bodies react and mutate and learn to build up defenses against them which ultimately are harmful to the human race because when a disease comes along that IS caused by bacteria, we have no arsenal to kill them and save ourselves! All because of people, in their ignorance, insisting upon being given antibiotics and doctors giving in to them. So sad, so sad, how we, as a species, insist upon going around shooting ourselves in the foot continuously.
YES!!!!! I wish more people would realize that antibiotics do not cure everything! When they were discovered (by accident I might add), people hailed them as miracle drugs. Doctors were being inundated by requests for them to treat absolutely everything. And in a sense, they were miracle drugs. People no longer had to worry about rheumatic fever as a consequence of an untreated streptococcal infection. Children no longer had to suffer through repeated bouts of ear infections. STDs could now be treated. But the concept was taken too far. People with colds ran to the doctor for an antibiotic, which of course was useless against a virus. This trend continues today. Even when I was adult and actively practicing nursing, if I made the mistake of mentioning to my mother that I had a cold, she immediately told me to go to the doctor to get an antibiotic. No matter how many times I tried to explain to her that it was a virus which was untreatable with antibiotics, she held firm. The older generation (my parents' age group--I of course will never be considered the older generation!) seems to really be fixated on the miracle of antibiotics. That makes sense, because antibiotics were discovered in the 1940's, purely by accident. A researcher was trying to grow a culture of bacteria that eventually became contaminated by mold. He made the interesting observation that there was no bacterial growth in the areas where the mold was growing. Eureka! Penicillin was discovered. That being said, doctors are not exactly blameless in the excessive prescription of antibiotics. They know if they don't give patients what they want, the patients will take their dollars elsewhere. So antibiotics were overprescribed, and now we are facing some really bad superbugs. Like viruses, bacteria can mutate. I don't know how many of you are familiar with MRSA (methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus), but it is now a major problem. A simple skin flora bacteria became pathogenic, to the point where penicillin and its derivatives no longer worked. Someone in a weakened condition could be overrun with this, and there would be nothing that could treat it. Now of course we do have antibiotics that work against MRSA, but they are not without dangerous side effects. Thus the cure can be as bad as the disease. Now I do have to say when antibiotics are warranted they should be used. Case in point: my adult son (who knows everything of course!) had what he thought was a cold for over 3 weeks, and it kept getting worse. I told him to go to the doctor because it could be pneumonia, and he gave me the typical "It's just a virus and the only thing that will cure it is time." His temperature was 104. (He has 2 small children at home; I freaked out and insisted he go to the doctor.) The next day when I talked to him it was "(mumble, mumble) pneumonia (mumble, mumble)." After 5 days of treatment with the Z pack, he was fine. So the point is, when antibiotics are warranted, yes, they should be used. Just not for everything. (Sorry this is so long, but this is one of my soapbox issues.)
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RE: Above posts:
Don't you think doctors in general are more educated about antibiotics today? They will not prescribe them for minor attacks of colds, coughs, etc.
I can't tell you how many people have said my doctor won't give me anything for this (cough, cold, slight fever, whatever).
I think the facts are getting out, perhaps I'm wrong.
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I think it's a soapbox issue for a lot of us. It's too bad the doctors aren't firmer about not prescribing inappropriately, but I can see why they give in.
The other soapbox issue is giving antibiotics to animals being raised for food, not to treat them, but because they grow faster. That's HUGELY inappropriate.
Ella, I think you're right. Whenever my doctor gives me an antibiotic (usually for bronchitis) she explains carefully why it fits the guidelines to do so.
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A quick aside: years ago, when we attended Elderhostels we went to the historical site on the Brandywine River in Delaware where the Dupont brothers had brought gunpowder to the USA from France. Couldn't get my husband away from this historical little place - cobblestones streets where horses had to wear plush soft boots as to not cause a spark and displays and displays. They had a little restaurant where I sat for a couple of hours waiting.
And now I read that the biohazard space suits were made of Tyvek, a Dlupont product.
http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek/en_US/
Get rich, buy a share of Dupont, look at all their products! (And youo can watch the movie FOXCATCHER when it comes out soon as it is about one of the Dupont brothers)
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RE: Above posts:
Don't you think doctors in general are more educated about antibiotics today? They will not prescribe them for minor attacks of colds, coughs, etc.
I can't tell you how many people have said my doctor won't give me anything for this (cough, cold, slight fever, whatever).
I think the facts are getting out, perhaps I'm wrong.
No, Ella, you're not wrong. Things are definitely getting better. However, while they were getting better a lot of bacteria had a chance to mutate and become superbugs. We may be dealing with this for a while. At least antibiotics aren't advertised on TV like many medications are. I really think it should be illegal for Big Pharma to advertise their meds on TV to the uninformed public. The idea of course is for the patient to run to the doctor and request the advertised medication, which may or may not be appropriate for the patient. Hopefully the doctor will not be swayed. However big Pharma spends megabucks trying to influence doctors to prescribe their products. Before I retired, I would go to luncheons sponsored (and completely paid for) by drug companies. I have all kinds of pens, tablets, calculators, etc., given away by drug companies. Sorry, this is another soapbox of mine. I bought into their advertising for many years. I'm sure many physicians did too, though they received the more expensive perks, such as weekend trips. OK, enough of that.
I finished The Hot Zone. I didn't want it to end. Now that I know about all the other books out there that cover the ebola virus, I will be immersing myself. Thanks to everyone for mentioning the additional sources.
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Oh, Pat! You hit a nerve with ME when you mention our purchasing and eating beef and chicken and pork chock full of antibiotics and HORMONES! Scary, scary stuff! We do terrible harm to our very own homo sapiens in order to MAKE MORE MONEY.
And yes, Ella; many doctors are too scrupulous to give out prescriptions for antibiotics willy nilly, but there are many others, unfortunately, who cannot withstand the nagging and are terrified of having their practices ruined by dissatisfied patients who take THEIR dollars elsewhere and complain loudly as to how bad a doctor the one they have left is. Reputations suffer from word of mouth, especially in smaller communities and one-hospital towns.
The one unfailing rule of Life is "Follow The Money, Follow The Money, Follow The Money!"
I read in this mornings paper that the World Health Organization (WHO) says the Plague has just killed 40 out of 119 confirmed cases in Madagascar. The roller coaster ride never ends. I know I have also read recently that a whole lot is going on ecologically in that island nation of unique life forms.
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Oh my, two f my hot button issues. My-daughter-the-doctor used to work with another doctor who informed her matter-of factly that he DID prescribe antibiotics for colds! I thought that was irresponsible.
And the chemicals that are put in our foods! Most foods have become completely tasteless, even "fresh" fruit and vegetable. Who knows what stuff we are eating? My theory is that the reason spicy and over-salted foods are so popular now is that the spice disguises the fact that the food underneath has no taste left.
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Oh my, two f my hot button issues. My-daughter-the-doctor used to work with another doctor who informed her matter-of factly that he DID prescribe antibiotics for colds! I thought that was irresponsible.
And the chemicals that are put in our foods! Most foods have become completely tasteless, even "fresh" fruit and vegetable. Who knows what stuff we are eating? My theory is that the reason spicy and over-salted foods are so popular now is that the spice disguises the fact that the food underneath has no taste left.
I stopped eating salads at the cafeteria in the hospital. I swear I could taste the preservatives in the lettuce. I thought maybe it was my imagination until someone else mentioned it too. Now that I am retired I try to make as much from scratch as possible. When I pick up a container at the store and it has more ingredients than a chemistry lab, that sends out a red flag. In the old days (I mean really old days) salt and spices were used to preserve food (and cover up the taste of spoiled food).
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Yes, that's why fortunes were made importing pepper.
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HYSTERIA, I cannot eat salads anywhere; I fix my own at home also. There is something they spray on the lettuce that my digestive system rejects in the very worst way. It took me awhile to figure it out, but the FDA should be notified. These salad bars in grocery stores are full of sprays to keep them looking fresher and the fruit and vegetables we bring home should all be washed, everything washed.
Oh, the more we read, the less we should eat; then why can't I lose a few pounds?
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I feel overwhelmed by all that I've learned by just following this stimulating discussion. Thanks to all of you. It has made me more optimistic about the future to hear about the successful research efforts into the medical problems that come along. Three cheers for all the professional health care people out there.
And the many provocative observations from all of you have so gently disturbed my state of blissful ignorance. The burden of many years have left me with the feeling that I may be losing it here and there. I've certainly lost some confidence in my tastebuds. What a relief to hear it's not me after all:
'Most foods have become completely tasteless.' And in another post:
'I swear I could taste the preservatives in the lettuce.'
That's it!! That's why we're all living so much longer!! It's the preservatives. Let's give thanks.
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Jonathan, welcome, it is good to see you have been following the discussion. It seems these next chapters are more suspenseful than the others, so hold on to your hat and get ready for some intense things to happen. If you don't wear a hat, then grab a cup of Joe and get comfy. No aspartame please! :D
I saw this and wondered, is it better to downplay the seriousness of something like this, to calm the public and appease the media? Even though I am someone who wants to know everything possible, especially if there is any danger involved, there is a part of me that maybe would be a little okay with the down playing, to prevent panic.
pg. 435 "A military biohazard operation was about to go down in a suburb of Washington, and he (C.J.)sure as hell didn't want the Post to find out about it. Half of this biocontainment operation was going to be news containment. C.J. Peters's comments to The Washington Post were designed to create an impression that the situation was under control, safe, and not at all that interesting. C.J. was understating the gravity of the situation."
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Yes, this section is mostly an exciting and dangerous chase. Notice, though, how many times, in how many ways, the virus puzzles them by not behaving as expected.
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I do hope to catch up today, especially if exciting and well written, so I can experience the issues you all are bringing up. But in aid of the subject of antibiotics, since it was brought up, such an interesting discussion of it, I have often wondered what did people do for UTIs (urinary tract infections) before antibiotics? Have you never wondered that?
Did they just die? I have no doubt it can kill you. It almost does, anyway, right? I have always wanted to know.
Jonathan, I've been thinking about you and am glad to see you here. We've got something coming up in the Books that has your name, and I hope a lot of other people's names, all over it in February! Or so I hope.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online Will you join us?
The Hot Zone: A Terrifying True Story
by Richard Preston
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hotzone/hotzonecover.jpg) |
It reads like a detective thriller, but it's a true story--how the Ebola virus was discovered, and what happened when it turned up in a research lab just a few miles from Washington, DC.
"When Richard Preston's novel "The Hot Zone" was published in 1995, it was, for many, their first introduction to the deadly Ebola and Marburg viruses.
Nearly two decades later, Ebola has infected hundreds of people in three countries across West Africa, in what is considered the worst outbreak in history. As fear over the deadly virus grows, we need a reminder of what we learned so long ago from Preston." British Broadcasting Corporation BBC
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DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PART ONE: The Shadow of Mount Elgon
Nov. 1 - 5~ First three chapters--Something in the Forest, Jumper, Diagnosis (Africa, 1980)
Nov. 6-9~ Next three chapters--A Woman and a Soldier, Project Ebola, Total Immersion (Maryland, 1983)
Nov 10-13~ Last three chapters--Ebola River(Africa, 1976), Cardinal(Africa, 1987), Going Deep
PART TWO: The Monkey House
Nov. 14-17~ First seven chapters--Reston, Into Level Three, Exposure, Thanksgiving, Medusa, The First Angel, The Second Angel (Maryland, Virginia, 1989)
Nov. 17-21~ Last six chapters--Chain of Command, Garbage Bags, Space Walk, Shoot-out, The Mission, Reconnaissnce
PART THREE: Smashdown
Nov. 22-?~ Insertion, A Man Down, 91-Tangos, Inside, A Bad Day, Decon, The Most Dangerous Strain
For Your Consideration
Nov. 14-?
1. As you follow the search for answers at Reston and Fort Detrick, what things did people do wrong? What did they do right?
2. What did you think of the strange techniques needed for electron microscopy?
3. Could you have faced three weeks in the Slammer? What makes it so hard to tolerate?
RELEVANT LINKS:
Prediscussion (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4472.40)
BBC Ebola Primer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28754546)
Mt. Elgon National Park (http://ugandawildlife.org/explore-our-parks/parks-by-name-a-z/mount-elgon-national-park)
Discussion Leader: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net )
Not everyone died from an infection before antibiotics came on the scene. An infection can run its course. Depending upon the disease, the body can develop antibodies to prevent a recurrence or at least lessen its impact. Unfortunately, some diseases like rheumatic heart disease develop because of a previous streptococcal infection, such as strep throat. The throat infection heals even without antibiotics, but damage is done to the heart valves. Many people died because of this. It's hard to image this today because all you have to do is take penicillin or a derivative for 7 - 10 days, and the streptococcus is wiped out before it can do any damage to the heart.
I enjoyed the suspense in this book. It does read like a mystery novel. I kept having to tell myself that this mystery was not fiction; it was very real. I am looking forward to reading some of Mr. Preston's other books.
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I can remember being about 9 years old, Daddy was stationed on River & Harbour duty in the state of Florida at the time, and the headquarters of the Army Engineers was in Jacksonville, Florida. There was a strep throat epidemic in our elementary school and a few children died of it. I was sick. Very, very, very sick. Fortunately, my stepmother was a nurse, so I had the best of care right there at home. And after the soreness subsided, the radio was brought into my bedroom and I got to listen to Soap Box Operas! Heaven!
But I am here to tell you, children died. We have come a long way, Baby; but those bacteria and fungi and viruses have, too.
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JONATHAN: "That's it!! That's why we're all living so much longer!! It's the preservatives. Let's give thanks." ;D So that's what people mean when they say I'm pickled? ;)
I'm glad we decided to read this chunk all at once: I'd read it before and knew how it ended, but still couldn't put it down. As in earlier sections, Preston really made me feel I'd been there.
I'm imagining myself at eighteen, suddenly thrust into a situation like that. I really admire these young men and women. And imagine being in charge and responsible for them, their safety, and that of countless others.
Some things Preston glosses over: what were the syringes found in the woods? Why was the lab's license taken away, than restored (do you think that's fair? Which?
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Oh PatH., these chapters have me on the edge of my seat. I am so shocked to read this:
pg. 245 At the edge of the lawn, behind the building, there was a line of underbrush and trees sloping down a hillside. Beyond that, there was a playground next to a day-care center. They could hear shouts of children in the air, and when they looked through the underbrush, the could see bundled-up four-year olds swinging on swings, and racing around the playhouse. The operations would be carried out near children.
How could they allow this to take place where children could possibly be affected? Did they not know what was near their building? Is this Preston turning up the danger? I own my in home daycare, and I am such a child advocate, this sent chills down my spine.
Ginny, OUCH! Just hearing UTI brought pain to me. I have only had a couple of these infections in my lifetime and it is very painful as you know if you have experienced one attack. Not sure you could die from a UTI, but the pain is horrific. My mother always drank cranberry juice and lots of water, which worked for her, so even though I used antibiotics I also immediately drank the cranberry juice and water. Surprisingly this articles says to do just that!
http://www.newportnaturalhealth.com/2014/08/cure-urinary-tract-infections-without-antibiotics/
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People are not prescient, albeit there are books of fantasized fiction full of such. There is no way any of the lab people or the Fort Dietrich people knew ahead of time that there would be that outbreak of Ebola in those monkeys destined for labs all over this country. No way! Not in their worst nightmares! So there was no reason to scout the area before that lab went there; and anyway, we have no clue as to which came first: the lab or the playground. But bottom line, either way, no one had any reason to be concerned prior to the events unfolding as they did.
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Still struggling to catch up, I don't lack too many pages now but I agree that the tension has escalated and that it does read like a mystery.
Actually I am finding the struggles to contain the news fascinating. I think this is probably representative of a lot of how our crises in this country were handled. I was so fascinated by the struggle with the CDC and AMRID if that's what it is, I don't have the book here, I stopped and read it twice.
The author, in his attempt to make it more personal, in adding on these little tidbits about the human characters here has both succeeded and raised more questions than he has answered. I think a psychologist would have a field day with the Jaxx family. It seems one reads along and then one has to stop and put exclamation points, so much is left out. How did Jaime, the latch key kid (how old is she?) get to her gymnastics? Her mother picked her up, how did she get there? It's a pretty long way away. Surely she did not walk? That's left out. Perhaps a bus from the facility, that happens a lot. I see them in the pick up zone when I go to get my grandson. But that is a seque to the main theme, the containment of the virus. And since he seques SO much, it's no surprise that we here are doing so also.
He did that well but he's still throwing out red herrings. Or so I think. I have to say when she was fixing dinner I kept saying no no, not another CAN and knife! :) NO! hahahaa
450 monkeys. Again I have no problem knowing why the gentleman was throwing up, and I hope that's all it was. I note Nancy Jaxxx was particularly careful lest they spit. Hopefully now these space suits have visors so that is no longer an issue. Particularly gross rehash of the Termite Eater, really not a man I would care to come within a mile of. Disgusting.
But it's fascinating, and i note that now there's a bit of a disagreement between the principals as to what was actually said, did you all catch that? Preston is reporting what they say in hindsight in his interviews for the book, but it doesn't always seem to jibe with the recollections of others. I think that's interesting.
This IS a good book and it WAS a spectacular choice and is beautifully led. I hope to finish it this afternoon, if I can stop rereading portions and marking it all up.
Bellamarie, oh yes I was the original Cranberry Girl. There does seem to be some protective element but you have to drink an awful lot of it for it to work. I also took the pills. I also took the chewy pills and the juice. I always drink filtered water. However I should not have used the term UTI (I only did because of this being a public site) because there are several possibilities that covers, of varying severity: a real UTI, a bladder infection, and a kidney infection if it backs up from the bladder. Everybody's situation is different, and a real infection is a dangerous thing to fool with: it is definitely possible to damage the kidneys if these things are not addressed, especially in children. In fact I have a friend who was patiently waiting for the antibiotics to work for his kidney infection which seemed to get no better, when he ended up in the ER in kidney failure. I really like the Mayo Clinic website. They also mention the possibility that cranberry juice might help stave off an infection by creating a hostile environment. Before infection. I would not try to cure an infection with it, (I did, and it didn't work, lots of ugly results, too). They are soothing and calming when one is panicked.
I saw a comedian on TV the other day talking about the latest panic of Ebola and who was reciting the stats and who said, "of course according to Web MD, you already have it," and everybody roared. I don't know about WebMD, which I have never read, but some of those internet sites (not the one you posted) would scare the crap out of anybody.
And now this morning comes word of the bird flu, "The H5N8 avian influenza virus has been detected in a wild bird in .... pathogenic avian influenza confirmed at a turkey farm in northern Germany, ..."
And the further worrying news that a wild goose has been found with a new strain of this virus, which, depending on which site you read, could cause widespread panic throughout all Europe. People who raise fowl in Europe are being asked to be sure their birds are confined and that the coops have wire on top to keep out wild birds, lest it spread further. So here we go again!
It's so nice to be reading this book, isn't it? One feels more in control, or at least that somebody is trying to take control of these virulent pathogens.
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That last is precisely the comfort this book and Virus Hunter have given me, Ginny. I came away feeling we, as a nation, have not been willing to put up enough resources to properly get us prepared for the next pandemic, BUT that those who are quite literally dedicating their lives to protecting us are there working day and night to do just that. We need to educate and put to work more of them and give them more and better equipment. But we probably won't. We tend to be extremely shortsighted, and these books do not get enough readership.
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Well said, MaryPage. I am enjoying you in a book discussion. :)
I notice at the very end of the book there is a "Pedln" list of the characters. Is that true for all books or just this paperback? I wish he hadn't put it at the end, I was using Pedlns and probably will continue.
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I read this book on my Kindle. While I love my Kindle and find it's a great way of having a multitude of books in my house without having to give up space, I feel it fell short as a means of reading a book for a discussion. Yes, it did include a list of characters as well as a glossary, but these were at the end. I did not even know they were there until I finished the book. I would have much preferred to see these at the beginning. I also would have liked to been able to go back and looked at pages again. Yes you can do this with a Kindle, but it is a bit more cumbersome. So for the next book club discussion, I will be buying the hard copy. Lesson learned!
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450 monkeys. One fact that Preston doesn't mention, but Peters does in Virus Hunters is that destroying one monkey represents a loss of about $1000. You can see why Dan Dalgard was hesitant, though he did end up making correct decisiona.
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Mary Page,
But bottom line, either way, no one had any reason to be concerned prior to the events unfolding as they did.
I am questioning their actions once they knew there were sick monkeys in that building. They have a man puking outside on the lawn, who possibly has the virus. Dan is so scared he is sweating bullets, about what this could develop into. They hear 3 and 4 yr. old children playing in a park. I would think it would be an immediate safety reaction, to evacuate that area with small children around. I realize they did not want to cause panic, but where is the fine line of keeping it under wraps, and risking lives of these children?
Ginny, As I read these chapters, I have NO clue yet if anyone else gets this virus, or if anyone dies from it, but for some reason I keep reading it in a sense some did indeed die. It could just be the overhype of Preston. I did notice the list of characters in the back of the book a few days ago, after I had begun compiling my own list on my computer. If only I had known, it would have saved me hours of typing. Oh well.....who looks at the back of the book, before you get there. :o
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BELLA: "Not sure you could die from a UTI" Yes, I almost did last year. Had no idea I even had one until I woke up in the middle of the night with scary symptoms, and was rushed to the hospital. My blood pressure was 60 over 40. I was in ICU for a week hooked up to a zillion tubes.
Part of the problem was that I never feel thirsty, so I don't drink enough. Now I'm on a water regimen -- I monitor my water consumption to make sure I'm drinking enough..
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I question some of the reactions to. But this came at them out of the blue: nothing they were prepared for or had any reason to expect. On the whole, I think they handled it well.
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I 'm packing to go out of town for a few days; just wanted to say thanks to all and many thanks to PATH, our Discussion Leader. Good discussion!
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Ella, I enjoyed reading your posts. Have a safe and pleasant journey.
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Computer out for repairs. Not nimble on iPad.
This has been a terrific discussion, and one that will certainly lead most of us to further reading. Preston's New Yorker article is hopefully still on my computer and I'd like to get hold of Peters' Virus Hunters that MaryPagehas told us about.
Hysteria, I know what you mean about reading on the Kindle and book discussions. It's hard to jump from one place to another and then get back to your original place. My books also come to my computer (hopefully remaining) and there it is easy to search. That's how I made my list of characters -- just searched each one by name throughout the book.
PatH, bless you for undertaking the leadership of this discussion, and thanks to everyone for helping make it a good one.
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You will find VIRUS HUNTER as much of a thriller as THE HOT ZONE, albeit it is written by a doctor rather than a journalist. And a Kindle version just will not do, as you will want to underline and highlight and go back and forth and forth and back. He does NOT have an index, however. Some photographs, but no lists. You will particularly enjoy reading a different version of the Reston monkey house episode, complete with the same people. You will also travel with him to foreign shores and meet new scary stuff. Most of it will come back to you from the far recesses of the brain we keep briefly talked about news items in. In fact, I found myself enormously surprised to discover there have been so very many outbreaks of different disease causing things, and I have simply never kept a mental list, as it were. But most of them I read about AT THE TIME!
I suggest Thriftbooks as a place to get a really good, cheap copy. Used. Under $4.00, usually.
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JoanK., Oh my, I had no idea a UTI could get that bad. I only had two in my lifetime. The first time, I like you, woke up in the middle of the night in so much pain and frequency to urinate, and I had no idea what was going on. I called my older sister who is a nurse and she said it sounded like a UTI, to take any leftover antibiotics that may be in my house, and call the doctor first thing in the morning. I truly suffered through the night, and found a few leftover antibiotics that I had from a upper respiratory a few weeks before this. It calmed down my pain and symptoms, til I could get some from the doctor. Thank you for sharing your experience, it will come in handy to know in the future. So happy to see all worked out for you.
Ella, we will surely miss you when you are gone. Safe travels and have a wonderful Thanksgiving Day!
I'm still behind in my reading, trying to get the house ready for turkey dinner. I am hoping to pass this torch to a daughter in law soon, and just show up with dishes. But until that happens, it's hi- ho- hi- ho.....off to prepare for this special day I go.
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It's not over yet, though Thanksgiving will slow us all down. There's still one more chunk of the book, though a short one, plus a bit of bringing things up to date.
MaryPage, I agree with everything you say about Virus Hunter.
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MaryPage, you don't know what you started! I had never heard of Thriftbooks. I just ordered Virus Hunter and signed up for their mailing list. I have a feeling the fun is just beginning. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm really looking forward to reading it. :D
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Delighted to be able to pass on the good news. I have been buying from them for several years now. They have MOST of what I want all the time! Just use their search engine. And the books are all they promise they will be, I swear! Sometimes they look brand new. Sometimes not, but are in very satisfactory shape. I buy a lot of children's books from them for my many (23 and one on the way) great grandchildren. More books for the bucks by a whole lot of moola! Oh, and you can send books directly to another person! I do that all the time, too; and Thriftbooks has never, ever failed me!
Well okay, once several years ago. I got a very good book, but not the one I ordered. I phoned their customer service in a panic. She asked me only questions about all the little numbers on the book I got and their order number for the one I didn't. They sent me the book I HAD ordered pronto, and told me to keep the wrong one, which turned out to be a Great book! You can't beat that kind of service. They have just one whole lot of used bookstores all OVER this country!
So look for them to arrive in your mail soonest, in orange plastic wrappers.
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I ordered it from Thriftbooks 10$ cheaper than the kindle. Thanks.
I'm not one who takes notes in books: Kindle has a highlighting facility that is easier to use than a paper book IF you realize when you read a passage that you're going to want to refer back to it. You highlight the passage: when you want to refer to it, you press a button that brings up only the passages you highlighted, and can take you directly to that point in the book. It has the advantage that the highlights don't show while you're just reading, so don't disturb rereading.
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Ebola news is appearing constantly still in everything available to us locally here in the Baltimore/Washington D.C. megalopolis area, and there are two items of interest in this evening's THE CAPITAL.
The first tells us that in Freetown, Sierra Leone burial workers are dumping bodies outside a hospital because their local authorities have not been paying them promised bonuses for handling and burying Ebola victims. The article also mentions 15 bodies so abandoned in the town of Kenema in Sierra Leone, including those of two babies. This protest has apparently rather effectively stopped people from entering the hospitals.
Right here in Maryland at the University of Maryland School of Medicine in Baltimore, twenty (20) volunteers have received a new experimental Ebola vaccine within the last 2 weeks. They will now have their blood tested for up to a year or more. Each may receive as much as $1,000.00 for helping in this important research; depending upon the number of times their blood is drawn and how much is taken.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ebola-vaccine-trial-shows-signs-success-004346391.html#8wM3znp
http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-ebola-vaccine-volunteers-20141125-story.html#page=1
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There is also a good, up to date article in this week's TIME magazine. Dated December 1 and titled The Genius Issue with Benedict Cumberbatch on the cover, the article appears on pages 14 & 15 and is about the latest on fighting Ebola.
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Well I have finally finished the book, but it was not without incident. I lost the book from carrying it around the house trying to find the time to read that last section, and I didn't want to desert the discussion so this morning it's on Kindle, thank goodness for Amazon, and I just finished it on the IPad.
One of the more scary things in it was the notice from Kindle that it's "learning reading speed."
Gee whiz you can't even read a book any more without having your reading speed ascertained! Big Electronic Brother is definitely watching us. And I do like a real book for this type of discussion.
But the end of the book has had a real effect on me.
All the confidence I did feel was evaporated reading the last bit of the book. "Somehow" the reporters had gotten the impression from talking to our old pal CJ that all the monkeys had been killed?
That's what's wrong with the Media today. Those "impressions." That's it entirely. But I won't get on that horse. :)
The scenes in the monkey house were beyond description, very graphically written, just more or less hell if you don't like monkeys and maybe if you do.
Escaped monkey. Bucket of possible monkey crap viewed thru the window at the very end of the book (I hope it's not a spoiler 2 days from the end of the discussion, to say so) , probably doused in the Sunbeam decontamination procedure. Possibly not. This facility for rent or sale? Is it still there? Has it been burned down?
The author seemed to have a strong conviction at the end, or is it just me? Repeated several times, that the thing might be airborne. Heating and air conditioning ducts.
Did anybody get that impression? Is he wrong? Who says? I'm not sure I'd trust anybody after this bit. hahahaa Certainly not anybody in the press.
Nice touch to go to Africa to the Mount Elgon area, to Kitum Cave because people reading the book wonder what it's like now. So he went in 1993. I enjoyed reading about how Africa has changed, even in 1993.
The statement that "Marburg can sit unchanged for at least 5 days in water" is certainly unsettling and the fact that apparently nobody has tried it with any of the (several) Ebola strains on dry surfaces is also unsettling (of course this WAS 1993), and the finding of the frozen monkeys is likewise unsettling and the bucket which appeared to be monkey skata is likewise unsettling. With all this heroic behavior and selfless sacrifice, dramatically written even to having the caps for speech so we could imagine how it sounded (super writing there), my feeling is unsettled.
And the fact that there is water in that cave is unsettling and that there were 4 caretakers who apparently tested positive for the virus but who did not come down with it themselves, including the guy who vomited when the 450 were killed is extremely unsettling, and behind it all the voices of children in the day care nearby still echo.
The feeling I have at the end of the book is unsettled. But it's a good book, worth reading, very enjoyable discussion....I do feel more informed, but a lot less trusting.
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In light of the recent cases of ebola in the US, I would like to see a "follow up" from Mr. Preston. I wonder what his thoughts on the current outbreak would be. (When I say "outbreak," I am referring to Africa. We certainly never had an "outbreak" here in the US.) I would be specifically interested in his thoughts regarding the mode of transmission, especially since the most recent strain of ebola is known to be confined to direct contact with bodily fluids.
I see there are efforts underway to develop a vaccine. I wonder if work on this vaccine has been ongoing, or is the effort now intensified because ebola crossed the Atlantic and entered the US.
I agree with you Ginny. I felt "unsettled" as well at the end of the book, probably because even though it read like a fictional medical thriller, the conclusion was not presented to us in a neatly wrapped package. The disease is still out there. After reading The Hot Zone, I am now wondering what else is out there. Are Marburg and the ebola varieties just the beginning?
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I guess the end of the book could be called "To be continued...."
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There is a follow up from Richard Preston in the recent THE NEW YORKER article.
Or did you not mean on Ebola, but on the Reston site? I have heard, and cannot confirm of my own personal knowledge, the original building has long since been razed to the ground and something entirely different occupys the place where it was.
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I felt "unsettled" as well at the end of the book, probably because even though it read like a fictional medical thriller, the conclusion was not presented to us in a neatly wrapped package.
That's it! And until I read Hysteria's post I did not realize what it WAS which bothered me. So many loose ends. I'd have liked to see more coda, perhaps a new insertion in the reprinted book especially on kindle. There is some, but not enough.
MaryPage, yes that's one of the many details, in fairness to the author, he probably would not have known what would happen to the site when he visited it. But all the issues I brought up in my prior post I'd like to see an update on. Every one of them.
Maybe as JoanK says, the "to be continued" is his work on a new book.
I hope his new book leaves out some of the personal details, tho I had to laugh at self the other day, my grandson was really pressing for his PB&J sandwich a couple of days before Thanksgiving, very hungry, very stressful time, and the doggone top would not come off, the paper lid inside the jar? And I had a knife and thoughts of EEEK EEEK EEEK did run thru my head but I didn't do it. I do understand, however, how Nancy Jaxx felt. The father dying I'm not touching...not touching. I don't know why the brother's death was mentioned, nor the father's. Showed me nothing. Extraneous to the plot. It looks to me as if he interviewed her and sprinkled in these personal items along and along to show some quality of hers, make us feel more intimate with these folks, and with me, it actually did not provide ....whatever it was it was supposed to, but I'm going to put it down to his own writing and nothing more. His choices to include or leave out.
And of course this IS non fiction, so there's a lot of "right and wrong" here so the only thing to debate ARE the extraneous bits, (unless you don't buy any of this), but it WAS interesting and well worth the read, and...since it's the 29th, hopefully I can say splendidly led by Pat H.
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There is a follow up from Richard Preston in the recent THE NEW YORKER article.
Or did you not mean on Ebola, but on the Reston site? I have heard, and cannot confirm of my own personal knowledge, the original building has long since been razed to the ground and something entirely different occupys the place where it was.
Do you know which issue of The New Yorker? Is it the latest one? I normally don't have access to it, but I will make a concerted effort to find it if I can read his follow up. I did mean a followup on ebola, not the Reston site. I am just curious to hear what he has to say given the recent ebola events.
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Oh dear; I do not have the New Yorker that Richard Preston's latest follow up on Ebola appears in; it is at my daughter Anne's. I posted in here when the issue was first published and I had read it, the point being that it was a follow up, and a lot of you in here read and commented upon it. Does ANYONE still have it and can you identify it? I think it was an October, but I am not sure.
OK, I just turned on another circuit in my so-called brain and Googled it, and here it is:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/27/ebola-wars
I should also comment that Richard Preston has been writing pieces in The New Yorker for years now on subjects in the world of Science. Actually, the fact is that his FIRST writings about the Reston incident appeared in that magazine BEFORE he wrote the book. So the book was written after The New Yorker had the story.
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Thank you. MaryPage. These are not the updates I had in mind, but it does address one of them, the issue of being airborne. He first says:
There are two distinct ways a virus can travel in the air. In what’s known as droplet infection, the virus can travel inside droplets of fluid released into the air when, for example, a person coughs. The droplets travel only a few feet and soon fall to the ground. The other way a virus can go into the air is through what is called airborne transmission. In this mode, the virus is carried aloft in tiny droplets that dry out, leaving dust motes, which can float long distances, can remain infective for hours or days, and can be inhaled into the lungs. Particles of measles virus can do this, and have been observed to travel half the length of an enclosed football stadium.
He then refutes this twice, the second time quoting the expert on the possibility of a zebra flying.
So...er.... while this is an update of sorts on Ebola and written recently, it does not address the issues he raised in The Hot Zone and those I wanted to hear. Perhaps another book is in order. It certainly, however, does show the circuitous style of his writing. I wonder why he can't just state the facts, Ma'am. Just the facts. Maybe that's what he's trying to do and nobody knows. Maybe he gets paid by the word for a magazine article.
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Well, I would put it out there once more that he is a Journalist, and earns his income from his writings. I think he is full of integrity, but, as much as Science obviously is a passionate interest of his, I would not deem him an expert. I first recommended this book because I found it so very easy to read and informative AND it was the only one out there at the time about the incident so very close to my home back then.
That is why I am so strongly recommending Doctor C.J. Peters book, VIRUS HUNTER. Because he IS a doctor and he DOES include the same story, along with just one helluva lot more information, and fascinating information, about viruses. But this book is also an older book. I have not yet discovered a newer one that reads so easily for me, a non-scientist who is also passionate about the subject.
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OH man, you mean the Termite Eater is the author of the Virus Hunter? The sweet talking guy whose interview with the press caused the press "somehow to get the impression that all the monkeys had been disposed of?"
MaryPage, :) no offense intended or I hope conveyed. The fact that Preston is a Journalist is nice but it doesn't (obviously) hold much weight with me. It was a good recommendation, I'm glad we chose it out of all the recommendations, and we've given it a month of our time and attention, have learned a lot, and it's been fun.
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I guess the end of the book could be called "To be continued...."
Yes, but we've got a number of further installments now. Here's an events chronology Ella posted some time back; it reads chronologically from bottom to top. You can see that in one sense Preston wrote too soon. There was a lot more action after then.
http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/outbreaks/history/chronology.html (http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/outbreaks/history/chronology.html)
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This was definitely the right book to pick for this discussion. It covers the start of the problem well, and it's so readable, and none of the other books cover the ground we wanted. Peters' book is really good, but only a fraction of it is about Ebola. I agree with MaryPage in recommending it.
When he gets to Ebola, he is obviously reacting to Preston's book. He makes a big point of praising Dan Dalgard, probably because Dalgard doesn't always look good in Preston's book. He describes Peter Jahrling and Tom Geisbert confessing to him that they "sniffed" the flask, and says that he (Peters) made the decision not to put them in the slammer. I have a feeling that's not so, but that Peters is just making sure that Jahrling and Geisbert never get in trouble for it.
When Nancy Jaax told him her father was dying, he told her to take time off, and praises her for taking her military responsibilities too seriously to do so.
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Oh dear, it seems I have come down with a horrible virus that landed me in the ER on Tuesday evening, with being dehydrated and horrible nausea and headache. I got a bag of fluids, anti nausea and headache meds, bloodwork, x-rays, EKG due to little flutters in my chest and thankfully all checked out perfectly! I have to tell you, they must have asked me at least a half a dozen times had I recently been out of the country, or have I been around anyone who had just come back from being out of the country. They took an influenza test, (which is NOT fun at all, a stick being rammed up my nostril and releasing something that burns for seconds.) Thankfully, that test showed NO influenza, so I was diagnosed as viral, and got to go home in less than three hours.
I have now come down with a horrible cough, and have no interest in reading the last chapters of the book. By the comments posted, it sounds like nothing is concluded in the end, and possibly leaves you with a feeling of frustration or unsettled feeling. I must tell you, while in the ER, half drowsy, waiting for test results, this crazy book kept creeping into my subconscious mind, and the gory descriptions were floating in my head as well. So, I decided when I came home, NO MORE gory books for me! I am glad I participated in this discussion, learned some interesting information, a bit too much for me, and not enough answered questions, even as far as I had gotten to in the book. I did feel Preston wrote more like it was a fictional suspense novel.
I hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday. Mine was great in spite of my sickness. The days following have not been so comfortable with this cough. I look forward to a nice, easy read book leading up to Christmas.
Thank you PatH., for being a fantastic leader. You did a marvelous job, considering this book. Ginny, I have so missed you, and was happy to reconnect in this discussion. Hope to see you in some future ones. May you all have a healthy, happy December!
Ciao for now~
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Oh, Bellamarie, how dreadful for you. Do take care, and get well fast. Thank you for all your contributions to this discussion.
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One more book description: David Quamman's Ebola is the most up to date, up to the beginning of September. It's only 100 pages or so, and some of it is pulled from his long book, Spillover, but it does describe the current events.
As for Preston, I'm willing to bet we'll see a new book from him pretty soon.
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Some loose ends: Peters tells what happened to the monkey house. It was closed after the 1990 outbreak, and remained empty until the building was torn down. No one wanted to rent it.
The animal reservoir for Marburg has been pinned down; it's the Egyptian fruit bat. Quite possibly that's true foe Ebola too, but it's not proven yet.
A lot more genetic mapping has been done. The Reston virus turns out to be just different enough that they're now calling it Reston, rather than Ebola Reston. The current outbreak started from one source, but has split into two strains, not different clinically, but distinguishable genetically.
It looks like any vaccine we make might be like flu vaccine, needing to be modified from year to year.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online Will you join us?
The Hot Zone: A Terrifying True Story
by Richard Preston
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hotzone/hotzonecover.jpg) |
It reads like a detective thriller, but it's a true story--how the Ebola virus was discovered, and what happened when it turned up in a research lab just a few miles from Washington, DC.
"When Richard Preston's novel "The Hot Zone" was published in 1995, it was, for many, their first introduction to the deadly Ebola and Marburg viruses.
Nearly two decades later, Ebola has infected hundreds of people in three countries across West Africa, in what is considered the worst outbreak in history. As fear over the deadly virus grows, we need a reminder of what we learned so long ago from Preston." British Broadcasting Corporation BBC
|
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PART ONE: The Shadow of Mount Elgon
Nov. 1 - 5~ First three chapters--Something in the Forest, Jumper, Diagnosis (Africa, 1980)
Nov. 6-9~ Next three chapters--A Woman and a Soldier, Project Ebola, Total Immersion (Maryland, 1983)
Nov 10-13~ Last three chapters--Ebola River(Africa, 1976), Cardinal(Africa, 1987), Going Deep
PART TWO: The Monkey House
Nov. 14-17~ First seven chapters--Reston, Into Level Three, Exposure, Thanksgiving, Medusa, The First Angel, The Second Angel (Maryland, Virginia, 1989)
Nov. 17-21~ Last six chapters--Chain of Command, Garbage Bags, Space Walk, Shoot-out, The Mission, Reconnaissnce
PART THREE: Smashdown
Nov. 22-?~ Insertion, A Man Down, 91-Tangos, Inside, A Bad Day, Decon, The Most Dangerous Strain
For Your Consideration
Nov. 14-?
1. As you follow the search for answers at Reston and Fort Detrick, what things did people do wrong? What did they do right?
2. What did you think of the strange techniques needed for electron microscopy?
3. Could you have faced three weeks in the Slammer? What makes it so hard to tolerate?
RELEVANT LINKS:
Prediscussion (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4472.40)
BBC Ebola Primer (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28754546)
Mt. Elgon National Park (http://ugandawildlife.org/explore-our-parks/parks-by-name-a-z/mount-elgon-national-park)
Discussion Leader: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net )
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Pat, thank you for that update! How nice to end it knowing a bit more.
Bellamarie!!! I am so sorry to hear you're sick! That's taking a book discussion to new heights, getting sick and experiencing first hand the questioning at the ER!! (Did you think it was Ebola? hahaha) I must admit I can't get it out of my mind.
Hope you feel better soon.
Great discussion, All!
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What of the future?
MaryPage gave us a link to 5 viruses that are scarier than Ebola:
http://www.livescience.com/47340-viruses-scarier-than-ebola.html (http://www.livescience.com/47340-viruses-scarier-than-ebola.html)
They are: rabies, HIV, influenza, mosquito-borne viruses, and rotaviruses. Do you find them scarier? Because we have learned what to expect from them, and how to treat them, we take them more in stride.
The New Yorker article MaryPage posted ends with this thought:
By now, the warriors against Ebola understand that they face a long struggle against a formidable enemy. Many of their weapons will fail, but some will begin to work. The human species carries certain advantages in this fight and has things going for it that Ebola does not. These include self-awareness, the ability to work in teams, and the willingness to sacrifice, traits that have served us well during our expansion into our environment. If Ebola can change, we can change, too, and maybe faster than Ebola
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We CAN deal with this, and we WILL deal with it. Just give us a chance.
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Ginny, No, I didn't think it was Ebola, :) but I must say those gory descriptions from the book kept dancing around in my drowsy head. I have never been dehydrated, and this virus came on so quickly, I just wanted comfort from the nausea and headache.
PatH., I agree, I believe whatever comes along we have the capabilities to deal with it. Good to learn they tore that monkey house down.
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It's been a wonderful experience discussing this book with all of you. You were so interested, and brought in so many ideas, and found so many sources, that you did half my work for me. I learned a lot from you, and I think we all know more now about this new problem.
I'll leave the discussion open for a while in case anyone wants to talk further.
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"If Ebola can change, we can change, too, and maybe faster than Ebola."
I guess those are the words we can come away with,
Thank you, PATH for your usual great discussion.
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But we never stop discussing. Our usual Holiday Open House is open:
And We are proposing a new discussion for January: "The Boys in the Boat", a fascinating look at boys, struggling to make a life for themselves in the great Depression, who went to the 1936 Olympics in Berlin to compete against Hitler's top atheletes in rowing. History, sports, and some fascinating characters..
Come here and tell us if you would be interested in participating after the Christmas rush is over:
http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4517.0
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I saw on the evening news that their television doctor is in trouble with the public perception of her because she came back from a trip to Africa and did not keep in quarantine. She apologized, saying she had no idea the American public was so afraid of Ebola.
But the bottom line is, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A FEVER TO BE (if it is Ebola) INFECTIOUS.
You have to have a fever, you have to have a fever, you have to have a fever.
I think the American public is not hearing that detail. Both the nurse, and now this doctor, neither of whom had direct contact with Ebola and both of whom you can bet were taking their temperatures almost hourly to make sure they were safe, have been unfairly criticized by a panicked citizenry.
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Absolutely, MaryPage. You have to have a fever. This has been explained over and over again, but once the panic sets in it is very difficult to eradicate. The ebola scare will be with us for quite some time. :(
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TIME magazine says a cartridge called a Hemopurifier has been invented, HAS BEEN INVENTED, that attaches to a dialysis machine and has a lectin filter that attracts Ebola viruses and sucks them from the patient's blood. So far, as of this issue being published, it has been used only once, on an Ebola patient in Germany, but it WORKED! He was cured of Ebola!
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Wow! Now that is something that needs to be publicized. But unfortunately the news media seems to focus on the negative. I guess that sells better. I do seem to becoming somewhat of a cynic, but the way ebola was handled in this country left a lot to be desired. I wonder if it would have been handled differently if we had had a Surgeon General in place. We may never know.
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Possibly. Probably.
But we, as a people, seem hell bent on grabbing the worst possible bit of hysteria (not maligning your cover name) out there and holding on to it for dear life these days. We yell and scream and cause great loss and anguish to perfectly innocent people along the way, and we insist our view is correct even though it has been totally demolished with TRUTH.
One precious granddaughter came out of law school with a strong sense of doubt about JUSTICE triumphing in our courts. She is doing her best for her clients, but she says she could not possibly practice criminal law or even ordinary people suing or being sued. It would appear that the upbringing I had and my children had at my hands is no longer the American Way. Perjury is rife across and up and down our land. As long as people are willing to lie in order to advance themselves and/or their families, corruption rules and my spirit shrinks.
What ever happened to HONOR?
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Thank you all for your participation in this discussion.