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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January Book Club Online:
The Boys in the Boat
by Daniel James Brown
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/boys/boys.jpg) |
The #1 New York Times–bestselling story about American Olympic triumph in Nazi Germany.
"Out of the depths of the Depression comes an irresistible story about beating the odds and finding hope in the most desperate of times—the improbable, intimate account of how nine working-class boys from the American West showed the world at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin what true grit really meant...
The emotional heart of the tale lies with Joe Rantz, a teenager without family or prospects, who rows not only to regain his shattered self-regard but also to find a real place for himself in the world. Drawing on the boys’ own journals and vivid memories of a once-in-a-lifetime shared dream, Brown has created an unforgettable portrait of an era, a celebration of a remarkable achievement, and a chronicle of one extraordinary young man’s personal quest." - Amazon.com
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DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PROLOGUE, PART ONE..............................JANUARY l - 7
PART TWO...............................................JANUARY 8 - 14
PART THREE............................................JANUARY 15 - 21
PART FOUR Ch. 13-15...............................JANUARY 22 - 28
PART FOUR Ch. 16-end.............................JANUARY 29 - FEBRUARY 4~
RELEVANT LINKS:
1936 Film of Olympic Rowing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HunZsKugJmY)
Daniel James Brown Website and Information (http://www.danieljamesbrown.com/books/the-boys-in-the-boat/)
Interview With the Author, Daniel James Brown. (http://www.hectv.org/video/15118/15118/)
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com ) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!
And Welcome to our discussion of THE BOYS IN THE BOAT. Is everyone here? Got your books handy?
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HOORAY, WE'RE STARTING. WELCOME ALL!
We have a great group here, and I think we'll have a lot of fun, learning about what is, to most of us, a new world. So, even if you haven't finished the reading, give us your thoughts. There is so much to think about and discuss in this first part.
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:)
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JoanK, the picture is why I give that webpage.
Here is a different webpage
http://www.hectv.org/video/15118/15118/
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Ella, tomorrow will be a good day.
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BLUEBIRD: that's a good video!
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WOW! What a great video, thanks BLUEBIRD. When they make the movie they certainly should have the author as a consultant , or write the script.
It's a fascinating book, folks, and what a good looking group of young men.
DB (our author) talks a lot about Joe Rantz, so tomorrow let's begin our discussion where the book begins - with Joe.
In the PROLOGUE, Joe had tears in his eyes, couldn't keep his composure, as he talked about the past. Why was he crying? Can you identify with him?
(p.s. Hello JEAN)
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HAPPY 2015 EVERYONE.
I cried when I watched Bluebird's video and he talked about meeting Joe Rantz in the last weeks of his life.
There are many great sports stories, but several things give this one extra power. Which of these gives the story most "oomph" for you:
The Depression
The rise of Nazi Germany
The story of a boy who was neglected and abandoned?
The story of a working stiff competing with sons of privilege?
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Thank you Bluebird for the amazing video. I always love being able to put a face to a name, and in this case we get to see DJB's excitement about writing the book, along with seeing these nine boys/men who were actually in the boat.
It's a bit ironic for me, because in the past week I have seen the movie Unbroken, which is of course about Louis Zamperini, an Italian/American who qualifies for the 1936 Olympics in running, and has a lot to deal with WWII torture.
Last night for New Year's Eve, I went to see the movie The Imitation Game, which is about Alan Turing inventing the first computer to crack Nazi codes, including Enigma, which cryptanalysts had thought unbreakable. This too dealing with a triumph and struggles during WWII.
And now, here I am beginning this book, The Boys In The Boat, which takes place during WWII, and again the 36 Olympics. As DJB said in his interview, "I suspect there are a lot of good stories from the 36 Olympics that might not have been told."
Well, I suspect now that Louis Zamperini, Alan Turing, and Joe Rantz along with the boys in the boat, have done well in print and at the theaters, we will be seeing more of these stories.
JoanK, I don't think I can pick just one from your list. For me, I think they all give the story "oomph" and intrigues me the reader.
I spent the entire day taking down Christmas decorations, and carefully packing them away for yet another year, in hopes they survive with few breaking. So, now I am all set and ready to snuggle in with my warm favorite blanket, and dog Sammy, and begin reading the book. Will check back in tomorrow.
Ciao for now~
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Indeed, we're going to be affected by all 4 of Joan's list, but we haven't yet seen Nazi Germany, or much of the class conflict. The one that really resonates so far is Joe's story. He isn't just abandoned once, but over and over again, and finally, at 14, is left to survive on his own. How can you come out of that a whole person? Where do you find the strength and ingenuity to make your way?
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I hope to participate in this discussions and now have the book on my nook. My previous interest in this particular Olympics comes from my previous reading of WW II history particularly the account of surviving Nazi participants such as Albert Speer who Hitler had personally appointed the lead architect responsible for the staging of this 1936 Olympic games. I think this will be an interesting discussion
Harold Arnold
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HAROLD: WELCOME WELCOME.
Great that you have already read about the 1936 Olympics. That part of history tends to get lost in the war and turmoil that followed. So I'm eager to learn more.
BELLAMARIE: you have written my "To Do" list. I've intended to read "Unbroken", see "the Imitation Game" and I always want to snuggle up with a book.
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I've always thought of them as the Jesse Owens Olympics. I just recently found a book with the title: Hitler's Olympics. And now Joe Rantz, at ninety, being asked what do you remember about them. Is it any wonder that he teared up? Thanks, Joan, for pointing out the four major threads interwoven so cleverly in the book.
C'mon crew. Get your oars in the water. All together now. Ten strokes per minute. And don't splash your neighbors.
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That was a terrific interview. I'm sure this book will make a great movie. I hope they do as good a movie as Chariots of Fire, a favorite of mine.
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You're right about Jesse Owens Olympics, Jonathan. If you mention just those words everyone knows which Olympics you're talking about.
The interview link looks good, and I've emailed HEC-TV for a transcript (hopefully) as there are no captions.
Am loving the book, which I did not start until Jan 1, and what a surprise to find much of it taking place in Seattle, which I had just left two days before. My Seattle grandson would rather do things other than read, but I'm going to recommend this to him, as he loves sports and has just turned in a college application to U-Dub.
JoanK, I'm finding the historical aspects fascinating, the Depression especially, and its effects on the Pacific Northwest. I don't know why, but I didn't expect to see a picture of a Hooverville in Seattle.
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Yes, wasn't the interview good. Thanks BLUEBIRD. A link to it is now posted in the heading.
WELCOME PAT, JONATHAN, PEDLIN, BEELAMARIE. Glad you decided to stay with us.
Yes, the author DJB says that Jesse Owens got all the publicity. When our boys won their gold, the Seattle newspapers were on strike, so it didn't even make the hometown papers. DBJ had never heard of them until he met his neighbor.
In my list of interesting things above, I forgot to mention the one that interests me -- the chance to learn about an area, even a subculture, that I know absolutely nothing about. I'm fascinated by the man who is quoted in the chapter headings, sitting in an attic for years, building boats, famous among a group of people but completely unknown outside.
What do you think of his comments?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GePNydI9gX4
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http://www.huskycrew.com/193614.jpg
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I am up to page 59 in the book, and I am so sad for poor 10 yr old Joe, being kicked out of his home because his step mother does not like him. As if losing his mother at age four, being shuffled around when his family home catches fire, and finally reunited with his father isn't enough for such a young boy to have to deal with. I suspect all the manual labor, hauling trays of food up and down, and cutting wood has been if I may deduce, a God send, since it is building his youthful body into more a muscular man's body, which will help him in strength and stamina once he begins rowing.
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It makes you wonder, doesn't it Bellamarie, what the laws concerning children were like then, back in the 1920's. Children seemed to be looked at with different eyes than those of later years. A 10-year-old, earning his own keep? I wondered why brother Fred did not take him in, or why the dad Harry didn't ask Fred. It seems that no matter how poorly he's treated by him that Joe idolizes his father.
JoanK, I"m enjoying the comments by George Yeoman Pocock, who is an enterprising character in his own right. I'd like to know more about him, and wonder if we'll see paralles between him and Joe (or perhaps him and "the boat.")
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Yes, pendln, I did wonder why the brother Fred did not take Joe in. I was almost assuming he would, and then seeing how Harry took Joe to the schoolhouse, and he was turned over to earn his keep at his age just made me tear up. It was tender reading Joe's feelings for his Dad. I image it's the times they shared he sits and remembers is what he keeps near and dear to his heart, not allowing the painfulness to overtake him. That sure says a lot about him at such a young age.
I too want to learn more about George Yeoman Pocock.
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Bellamarie, wait until you see what happens to Joe when he's 14. He really needs all his resourcefulness.
Pedln, I too wondered about child protective laws then. I suspect that whatever the laws were, with everyone as desperate as they were then, no one bothered about someone else's details.
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My thoughts on the way children were treated in earlier times. It seems they were valued not for what would be their future contributions but for what they could provide as soon as they were old enough to be put to work as manual laborers not only on farms but in sweat shops. Also, because of lack of birth control, some parents, with more children than you could count on two hands, really did not want that next child. Having said all that it is hard to understand Joe's father, step-mother and brother. Was he a surprise in the first marriage? Was his step-mother jealous of the attention he got from his father? Was the brother too busy with his own life?
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And after that treatment he got from his own father, Joe seems to have become a wonderful father, judging by the interview. His daughter adored him.
I've read ahead, so forget what I read where. We do learn Pocock's life story, and it's an interesting one.
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In Laura Ingalls Wilder's book about the childhood of her husband (Farmer Boy) it's stated that a farmer's son was generally expected to work on the farm until he was 18, as a payback for the costs of his upbringing, and was then free to leave and make his own way.
I did some googling to try to find out if it was legal during the Depression to walk away from a 14 year old child without making provision for him. I learned a lot of interesting stuff, but not the answer to my question.
Joe's stepmother seems to have been totally overwhelmed by the hard life she found herself in. She seems to have had no affection for this child who wasn't hers, and as Halcyon says, was probably jealous of his father's attention. So it's evident why she didn't want to put up with him, but it's less obvious why the father went along with it.
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Hello, everyone!
I've been in the hospital for a day/night since I last posted, but am here to tell you how much I am enjoying your comments about the book - and we are just getting started.
And all of you are wondering about Joe and being on his own, being abandoned. I must go back to the book to see if it was because of troubles between Joe and his stepmother.
Most of us, fortunately, have lived in an era where schools took a more active part in absentiism (truant officers) and most of us have had concerned parents, but I think the period of our history we are discussing - the depression years - were very difficult for families, even loving ones, and certainly difficult for chi ldren - children who were kept out of school so they could help the families eat.
Two quick examples come to mind, and I am sure you can think of others. Immigrants to America, the Triangle Fire in NYC, no child labor laws. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFJ6cQUJOsg)
And farm families, not being able to hire help during the busy times, needed their children for help.
I have never understood those that do not have a sense of our history, our tough times and our good times. This book is of a tough time do you agree?
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Ella, I am so sorry to hear you were in the hospital. I pray all is well with you.
JoanK., you totally threw me off with your comment. Not quite there yet.
Halcyon, It appears salmon was more protected than children were back in the earlier times. They had poaching laws, but nothing to stop parents from abandoning their underage children. Was 14 yrs. old considered an acceptable age to leave your child to fend for himself?
Oh PatH., I am just stupefied reading what this poor boy has had to go through in the short 14 years of his life. Abandonment by his own father not once but twice, is beyond my comprehension. This step mother is just horrible, and how dare his father leave him to fend for himself in a house half built. These words are so very heartbreaking:
Joe lay in his bed for a long time, listening, remembering the days he had spent lying in bed in his aunt's attic in Pennsylvania listening to the mournful sound of trains in the distance, with fear and aloneness weighing on him, pressing down on his chest, pushing him into the mattress. The feeling was back. He did not want to get up, did not really care if he ever got up.
pg. 78 on my ipad
Then he finds it in himself to overcome this awful situation and take control of his own life:
Finally, though, he did get up. He made a fire in the wood stove, put water on to boil, fried some bacon, and made some coffee. Very slowly, as he ate the bacon and the coffee cleared his mind, the spinning in his head began to diminish and he found himself creeping up on a new realization. He opened his eye and seized it, took it in, comprehended it all at once, and found that it came accompanied by a fierce determination, a sense of rising resolution. He was sick and tired of finding himself in this postion__scared and hurt and abandoned and endlessly asking himself why. Whatever else came his way he wasn't going to let anything like this happen again. From now on, he would make his own way, find his own route to happiness, as his father had said. He'd prove to his father and to himself that he could do it. He wouldn't become a hermit. He liked people too much for that, and friends could help push away the loneliness. He would never again let himself depend on them, though, nor on his family, nor on anyone else, for his sense of who he was. He would survive, and he would do it on his own. pg. 79 on my ipad.
Good for him! I feel myself cheering for him at this point, as I would watching him row in the Olympics. This is the determination and fortitude Gold Medalists are made of.
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If it's all right with everyone, can we go back to the Prologue for just a few posts? It's such a tender beginning.
BELLMARIE remarked about cheering young Joe along -
but what about old Joe? He cried when he talked about the past.
Our author is trying to explain why old Joe cried.
A vanished moment, a shared experience.
We've all had them. What are your moments, your shared experiences, the treasured past?
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I think old Joe cried thinking about what was a mystical experience for him, one that could not be repeated. Maybe he was just sad because he knew his life was near the end and it would probably be the last chance for him to tell his story.
ASIDE: My son and his fiancee live in Seattle, she is a third year resident at The University of Washington, or U Dub as the locals call it. The were at a university function last night and everyone was talking about The Boys in the Boat!
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Crying doesn't always mean sadness but can be an expression of wonderment of past circumstances. He no longer was active and busy and had time to reflect on his life and what that particular time meant to him. Speaking of that particular time in his life was the only time he cried-----not for being left behind or deaths of his friends but only that period when he was part of something wonderful.
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FlaJean, I think you are right about that and it must have been even more amazing to the boys in the boat after the whole world learned what an evil person Hitler was. Good defeating evil.
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Joe insisted that Daniel Brown write about "the boat". And "the boat" wasn't the Husky Clipper, the shell they rowed to victory in 1936. "The boat" to Joe encompassed the shell and the crew, but "it was something mysterious and almost beyond definition. It was a shared experience -- a singular thing that had unfolded in a golden sliver of time long gone, when nine good-hearted young men strove together, pulled together as one, gave everything they had for one another, bound together forever by pride and respect and love."
No wonder he cried when talking about that experience - for the loss of that vanished moment and the sheer beauty of it. I hope that each of us, at our deathbeds, can look back and find one experience whose sheer beauty will make us cry.
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He cried earlier, too. Here he is: he has learned that he has made the first boat, and they are about to go out together:
"..for a brief fragile moment it seemed to Joe as if all of them were a part of a single thing, something alive with breath and spirit of its own... for the first time since his family had left him, tears filled his eyes"
Have you ever felt that -- that you were part of a single thing, larger than yourself? Is that the theme of this book?
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http://www.historylink.org/
search george pocock
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Thanks for those great comments. Isn't it fun to be in a discussion with a good group.
Yes, treasured moments. Joyful moments. I can cry very easily when I think of the first sight of my babies after they were born. And to hold them.
And perhaps it is one of the themes of the book, although I am leaning more toward the competitive sport of rowing and those involved in the 1936 Olympics.
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DID EVERYONE THAT WANTED ONE GET A COPY OF THE BOOK? I am missing a few of you who wanted to be in the discussion group. I know our Columbus Metropolitan library system is still backed up. Too many on hold, too many out in book groups.
We would love to hear from you.
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Yes, Ella, old Joe does seem to be emotionally affected by thinking back to his years of rowing. In the prologue:
His voice was reedy, fragile, and attenuated almost to the breaking point. From time to time he faded into silence. Slowly, though, with cautious prompting from his daughter, he began to spin out some of the threads of his life story. Recalling his childhood and his young adulthood during the Great Depression, he spoke haltingly but resolutely about a series of hardships he had endured and obstacles he had overcome, a tale that, as I sat taking notes, at first surprised and then astonished me.
But is wasn't until he began to talk about his rowing career at the University of Washington that he started, from time to time, to cry. He talked about learning the art of rowing, about shells and oars, about tactics and technique. He reminisced about long, cold hours on the water under steel-gray skies, about traveling to Germany and marching under Hitler's eyes into the Olympic Stadium in Berlin, and about his crew-mates. None of these recollections brought him to tears, though. It was when he tried to talk about "the boat" that his words began to falter and tears welled up in his bright eyes.
At first I thought he meant the Husky Clipper, the racing shell in which he had rowed his way to glory. Or did he mean his teammates, the improbable assemblage of young men who had pulled off one of rowing's greatest achievements? Finally, watching Joe struggle for composure over and over, I realized that "the boat" was something more than just the shell or its crew. To Joe, it encompassed but transcended both__it was a shared experience__a singular thing that had unfolded in a golden sliver of time long gone, when nine good-hearted young men strove together, pulled together as one, gave everything they had for one another, bound together forever by pride and respect and love. Joe was crying, at least in part, for the loss of that vanished moment but much more, I think, for the sheer beauty of it.
Again, in Joan K's post, Joe is crying as he is feeling the connection of being a part of a single thing.
" he has learned that he has made the first boat, and they are about to go out together:
"..for a brief fragile moment it seemed to Joe as if all of them were a part of a single thing, something alive with breath and spirit of its own... for the first time since his family had left him, tears filled his eyes"
I suspect it is "the boat" which gives him a sense of family. He lost his mother at such a young age, was abandoned by his father twice, his step mother showed him no love, and for once in a very long time he feels a part of something that feels like a single unit, a sense of acceptance, a sense of family, of belonging......
My treasured moment I have is the day Sr. Myra, the principal of my children's Catholic grade school asked me to teach Catechism classes, knowing I had no college degrees, no teaching degree, and no past Catholic school teaching. She told me I didn't need any of that, because she could see I had the love of the faith, and the teacher's manual will supply me with the rest. A few years later she then asked me to begin the school's technology computer lab. Again, I had no teaching degree, or prior computer skills. She said, I have faith in you Marie, that you can do this, and I will help you. Our K-8 computer lab ended up being one of the best in the Toledo diocese, and I was chosen to teach at a weekend workshop at the University or Bowling Green, to introduce area high school teachers to basic computer skills. Computers to me, is like Joe's "boat" the feeling of being chosen, the feeling of others having faith in you, the feeling of being a part of something you know is bigger than you ever expected to happen in your life, the feeling of belonging......
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That's wonderful.
"Computers to me, is like Joe's "boat" the feeling of being chosen, the feeling of others having faith in you, the feeling of being a part of something you know is bigger than you ever expected to happen in your life, the feeling of belonging...... "
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EELA's comment:
"How rowing came to the University of Washington would make a book in itself. What amazed you the most from the stories of the Pocock brothers and Conibear?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January Book Club Online:
The Boys in the Boat
by Daniel James Brown
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/boys/boys.jpg) |
The #1 New York Times–bestselling story about American Olympic triumph in Nazi Germany.
"Out of the depths of the Depression comes an irresistible story about beating the odds and finding hope in the most desperate of times—the improbable, intimate account of how nine working-class boys from the American West showed the world at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin what true grit really meant...
The emotional heart of the tale lies with Joe Rantz, a teenager without family or prospects, who rows not only to regain his shattered self-regard but also to find a real place for himself in the world. Drawing on the boys’ own journals and vivid memories of a once-in-a-lifetime shared dream, Brown has created an unforgettable portrait of an era, a celebration of a remarkable achievement, and a chronicle of one extraordinary young man’s personal quest." - Amazon.com
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DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PROLOGUE, PART ONE..............................JANUARY l - 7
PART TWO...............................................JANUARY 8 - 14
PART THREE............................................JANUARY 15 - 21
PART FOUR Ch. 13-15...............................JANUARY 22 - 28
PART FOUR Ch. 16-end.............................JANUARY 29 - FEBRUARY 4~
QUESTIONS PART II
1. We learn a lot about rowing and boat building technique in this section. What did you find most interesting or strange?
2. If you have competed in a different sport, what do you relate to in the rowers' experiences.
3. Joe suffers from the "elitism" of some other boys. What other forms of elitism do we see in this section? Do you see any similar problems in your own life?
4. Why do you think rowing events were so popular as spectator sports then ("as important as the World Series", larger crowds than football games), and not now?
5. Do you find the description of the races exciting? How does the author maintain suspense, when we know the outcome?
6. Does learning about Joe's stepmother's family change your opinion of her?
7. We've now met two different craftspeople/innovators: the English boat builder and the German filmmaker. Do you see any similarities?
RELEVANT LINKS:
1936 Film of Olympic Rowing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HunZsKugJmY)
Daniel James Brown Website and Information (http://www.danieljamesbrown.com/books/the-boys-in-the-boat/)
Interview With the Author, Daniel James Brown. (http://www.hectv.org/video/15118/15118/)
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com ) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
http://www.huskycrew.com/1936.htm
I did not read the historylink webpage.
I read this page.
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'But not just about me. It has to be about the boat.'
What an exciting achievment Joe can look back to. So why the tears? I find all your explanations for the tears very interesting. And what an opener for a story about winning a gold medal at the Olympics. Joe, it seems, is very pleased to have his story told. The author, in the interview, wishes another 'Joe' will come along with another book. And what an amazing, supporting cast. A boat builder whose musings suggest a Strativarius creating a violin. After what George Pocock put into it, can there be any doubt that his boat would give the crew a competitive edge? A megalomaniac dictator trying to whip his country into shape and having to compete with sport coaches all over the world. What a foil Hitler becomes.
Fred, I believe, deserves much of the credit. You're all to hard on him. Fred brought his kid brother back from Pennsylvania, and took him in for a short while. Fred got Joe back to high school, and then on to U Dub...and glory.
Thanks for all the glorious links. I've enjoyed them all, but especially the one on Bob Moch, the coxswain. Getting 40 strokes per minute out of those superb athletes! WOW!
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I'm a bit late to the discussion - life happens. The book so far is amazing. I am so impressed by the resiliency of the characters. Hard times make for resourceful people. Joe certainly was dealt not one but many blows in his young life, but each time he made the best of a very bad situation. As I was reading, all I could think of was how today's youth would fare in Joe's shoes. Have we as a nation become "soft?" Could we make lemonade from the lemons we have been given? I don't know. I'm sure I will continue to be awed as the characters develop and the story unfolds. I am looking forward also to the links you all have provided. (I am just now catching up.)
Just to get in the spirit of the book, I bought a rowing machine! OK, it's a "starter" machine, but let's just say I now have a profound respect for Joe and his teammates.
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HYSTERIA BOUGHT A ROWING MACHINE!
Wow, what motivation! Pocock talks about the value of rowing, oldest chronicled sport in the world. Really! I skimmed the internet for the oldest sports and that wasn't mentioned but I'll believe Pocock knows whereof he speaks.
You must let us know about the "pain" involved, HYSTERIA, and what values you are receiving!
HI JONATHAN! Yes, I remember FRED, Joe's older brother, a chemistry teacher I think he was and he was so good to Joe - 3 meals a day and a sense of family. How wonderful that must of seemed to Joe.
All these people, the pictures in the book - they are all so good looking, in such good shape for all the "hard times" as Hysteria said.
Thanks, BELLE, for the quotes, are you reading from the book or a device? I would love to refer to pages but that is difficult with such technology.
Love the pictures - http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=9404
My husband loved wooden boats, we fished Lake Erie for years, but eventually went to the fiberglass. I think it was a Thompson boat, the first we had and we each took an end and loaded on the trailer and off we went to go catch walleye.
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I think Fred, the older brother has helped Joe, but as for "much of the credit", I am not sure I can agree with you Jonathan. I just don't understand why Fred allowed Joe to remain in the schoolhouse at the age of 10 yrs. old, working endless hours, and then at the age of 14, Fred did not ask Joe to come live with him knowing he was living in the half built house with no income or food. I feel Joe deserves much of the credit for his achievements, because he stayed in school, worked hard, and struggled through the pain and loneliness of being abandoned and living by himself. Why is Fred and his wife keeping the whereabouts of their father from Joe? I have so many unanswered questions in these chapters where this family is concerned.
Ella, I am reading the book on my iPad so I just copy from whatever page it shows. Since we are reading in sections and I don't read ahead, I hope it makes it easier to find my quotes with whatever device, you all are using.
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HYSTERIA IS ROWING! Have you rowed before? What's it like? (Where does it hurt the most?) How many strokes a minute do you do?
And ELLA, you have rowed too. How different is rowing out to catch walleye from the racing rowing the book talks about?
I love the pictures of Pocock, too. He looks like I imagined -- like someone who's lived a good life. we need more craftsmen like him.
According to the article, wooden boats were replaced by fiberglass in the 1968 Olympics, and that was the beginning of the end for American dominance in rowing. Does that mean that it was Pocock's better boats that gave the US the edge?
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Joe's father has disappeared from the scene before when things got too much for him. He fled to Canada when his first wife died--couldn't bear thinking of what he'd seen in the final illness--was probably having some sort of breakdown. His stepmother seems to have been at the end of her tether, and any problem with Joe, even minor, pushes her over the edge. She's probably given her husband some sort of ultimatum about Joe. Anyway, I think the father agreed to leave Joe behind because the extra stress would push him over the edge. Why didn't he get in touch later? Maybe he felt too guilty to face Joe after what he'd done, and maybe his wife still didn't want to have anything to do with him.
I hope we find out later in the book just what was going on.
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Hysteria, I hope it turns out that you like the rowing machine. It's wonderful exercise, uses so many muscles. I guess that now you know exactly which ones. My neighbors across the street, the parents, do some sort of online rowing contest. Everyone turns in their data. The machines seem to calculate how "far" you've rowed, but I don't know if speed is also calculated. The children are both on teams, the boy in high school, the girl in college. It seems to be a wonderful positive part of their lives.
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Let's just say that while I can do a 10K (walking, not running) on the treadmill, fifteen minutes of rowing makes me question my will to live! It's tough! And I am doing it at my own speed in the comfort of my living room (no cold water, awful weather, etc.). As I said, my respect for these rowers increased exponentially after my first session. But I will keep it up because it strengthens the body, mind and spirit.
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As I was reading, all I could think of was how today's youth would fare in Joe's shoes.
Hysteria, I wouldn't give up on today's youth just yet -- the little girl who survived that small plane crash is a good example of inate resourcefulness, and I think, some good parenting done there too.
One would probably not call Harry Rantz a good parent, but could part of Joe's resourcefulness have come from him? Harry was not afraid of work, was not afraid to try new things, and passed on some of these skills to Joe. (Too bad he was afraid to try saying "NO" to his wife.)
I'm going to check at my gym. Surely they have rowing machines.
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PEDLIN, yes, what that little girl did is almost unbelievable, is it innate resourcefulness or a learned response or whatever psychologists call it? Wasn't she just 7 years old?
And as you said, Harry, Joe's father, did pass on some good characteristics to Joe.
HYSTERIA, mind, body and spirit! We all need that, gosh, what we have going here is a good thing isn't it, everyone getting in shape at home or in the gymn.
I think it was in the 80's that gyms first became popular, don't you think? We called them "spas." I belonged to one for a few years back then and loved the water exercises and then my dry skin stopped that as the chemicals in the water produced a rash.
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No, no, JOANK, we didn't row a boat on Lake Erie, Oh, goodness, no. It's too rough, waves, storms coming up quickly. We had a motor on that boat, an outboard to start with and in our little wooden boat we didn't go out very far from shore. What energy we had, after working all week, we would pack up and go to the Lake for the weekend.
Does anyone live in a lilttle town like Sequim? Do they still exist? And living through the "crash," how difficult it was for so many families, particularly farm families, do you think? I never wanted to depend upon good weather for my livelihood, and to make the mortgage payments, I am sure it was really tough.
"Dozens of families had simply walked away from their home and farms in Sequim that fall."
And the dreams they must have had.
Did your parents talk about the '29 crash and how it affected them?
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Joe learned a lot from his dad and Harry did spend time with Joe in the early years. But introspection was certainly not part of Harry's makeup. What was he thinking when putting that young, perhaps immature, wife into those situations. He made a lot of bad choices, but I believe he did give Joe a lot of love in his earliest years.
I agree with Jonathan that Fred was a good brother to Joe. Joe could have had a nice home life with Fred if his dad hadn't come back from Canada and taken him from that life IMO.
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Does anyone live in a lilttle town like Sequim? Do they still exist?
Nowdays people retire to Sequim, and sit looking at the water and wishing it wasn't such a hassle to get to Seattle. I had a friend who did this. It's pronunciation is odd: skwim.
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Tomorrow, we go to Part II and see the boys actually starting their rowing careers. Did you notice, the discussion is five weeks, not four, and goes over slightly into February. This fits with th "Lady of Shalott discussion, which doesn't start the first.
How is the pace for everyone? too slow? too fast? Let us know.
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The pace is just fine, Joan, as we take stock of the author's style and Joe's memory. Joe certainly seems to have been a resourceful, talented, clever and courageous boy. All in all, an amazing childhood. Two pictures in my book illustrate that very dramatically. On page 24, Joe at age three, is shown with father, mother and brother, all adults. On page 33, Joe, about 12?, with his new mother, and dad, and his two half-brothers, whom he saved from the fire. Life was tough for all ot them.
It's interesting to hear that rowing strenghtens body, mind and spirit. That may explain why it became a favorite college sport, popular with the social elite in England. Before we get to Berlin the boys will take on the guys from Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Oxford and Cambridge. Does that make our boys look smarter than all of them?
And isn't it all a great irony. Rowing started out as the occupation of galley slaves, working the oars as punishment for crime or forcefully impressed into service. Those triremes must have been a glorious sight flying across the wine-dark seas. I wonder did they ever race for the sport of it. Did the rowers feel their minds improved?
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http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/07/04/berlin-olympics-rowing
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A trivia question. Which state has or had the most lighthouses? Michigan. Were you ever caught in stormy seas, Ella? Even Lake Erie can get mean.
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Thanks, Bluebird, for another splendid link. That it is the most dramatic finish photo.
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Thank you, BLUEBIRD. We'll definitely be talking about that video.
The questions for Part II are now in the heading.
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Although, I moved to Ohio when I married my hubby, I was born and will always remain in my heart a Michigander, so this was an easy one for me Jonathan. Let's Go Blue is my chant......Michigan has the most lights of any state with over 150 past and present lights. Even though we boast the Great Lakes state, you would think Minnesota with it being, the "Land of 10,000 Lakes."
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PATH: People retire to Sqim now? We must have a map of the place somewhere, is it in the book?
JONATHAN, no, never caught in a storm, although it's tricky. We started, when we were young, night fishing and didn't go out far, but then later, we parked a permanent trailer up there and spent weekends and made a lot of friends. Some of them had radios and they alerted us, but then we got all the "gadgets" eventually in a much bigger boat and were soon going to the border with Canada and that's scary. There is no border and I kept yelling at my husband, the captain, that we would get fined fishing there, how did he know we were in still in USA waters? I think he liked the challenge and he loved fishing, we trolled in the lake in later years, fun, and swam from the back of the boat.
So we were a team of "family in the boat."
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We were a family of girls and none of us were athletes, I couldn't even keep roller skates on when I was young. Remember you had a key to tighten them? So am not even pretending that I know anything about sports except a few observations from the book and listening to people now and then.
Rowing as a sport, DB tells us, depends upon every member of the crew pulling together, they must be synchonized. Doesn't that differ from most sports?
And it seems to me that the coxswain is irreplaceable - he calls out the strokes - M I B - MIND IN BOAT.
Yes, of course, I know about "elitism." We experienced it as a family, doesn't everyone? hahhahaaa We wore each other's hand-me-downs and tried to "up" them a bit. And I think everyone in my little town knew when the first million dollar home was built and longed to see the inside of it. Actually, I did, I dated briefly one of the boys in the house.
Joe's experience with the elitism of the university students probably made him stronger, purposefull - as Coach Bolles said the character of those rugged kids who had worked hard made it - made a good crew; they "smiled easily and openly........ They looked you in the eye...... they joshed you, they looked at impediments sand saw opportunities."
Doesn't the author write well? I like the way he puts sentences together, that last one about "impediments and opportunities" is a good one.
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I agree. I think he's an excellent writer.
That sounds like a great experience, ELLA, even if you didn't row. So you don't count fishing as a sport? Some might disagree, although you're competing against fish, not people.
"We experienced it [elitism] as a family, doesn't everyone? hahhahaaa"
I wonder. I wonder if the family that looked down on us was being looked down on by someone else.
I remember a strong lesson from my childhood. The girl next door, about our age, was an expert at looking down on us. Everything we had or did was somehow inferior to what SHE had or did. Her dining room windows overlooked ours, and she would even look through and later criticize our table manners.
One day, I was feeling sorry for myself. I remember pacing the living room, wishing I was her, with all the beautiful things she had that we couldn't afford. The next day, I learned that at the very time I was doing that, she was learning that her father had died.
I never forgot that. I can't say I've never felt envious of someone else, but when I do, I remember that day.
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Elitism.....this word is so ugly, powerful, and prejudice when it comes to how those who are elite, can make others feel. Yet, if we all felt happy and content within ourselves, elitism would not be possible to have that empowering effect on others. I grew up on a rural road, in a small town, and wore hand me downs, but the ironic thing is I did not ever feel elitism around me. Yes, I know other kids at school had nicer clothes, but none of these kids ever made fun of, or treated me differently. The first time I ever can say I realized a name brand clothing, was in high school when a very pretty girl in my class had a Bobby Brooks outfit, sweater and skirt. It was just so beautiful and sharp looking, I could not help but notice. She was a very nice girl, and did not act stuck up or snobby, so elitism was not even a factor.
Now when my daughter went to a Catholic grade school in a suburban city, she dealt with girls who treated her cruelly because she did not wear the name brand styles of clothes. I bought her the name brands, Forenza, Swatch, Gap, Limited, etc., and she refused to wear them. She said she did not want to be associated with those type of girls. Now this is the first time I experienced elitism, and I was very proud of my daughter for not wanting to play into, or empowering these girls. One day the girls tripped my daughter on her way to the bus and caused her to skin her knee badly. The principal, Sr. Myra, saw it happen and since I taught in the school she informed me of who it was. When the girls came to my computer class, I asked them why they were treating my daughter so cruelly. The one girl's response was, "Julie makes us feel like we are stuck up and snobby, because she said she doesn't like to wear name brand clothes." Talk about reverse psychology! Most of the girls ended up liking my daughter Julie, and became friends with her.
It is so cruel when others who have more, treat others with less, inferior.
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Looking at the Google Map, Ella, Sequim is a bit NW of Seattle. It's actually on the northern part of the Olympic Peninsula, directly west of Port Townsend. My daughter took me to Port T years ago, but I don't remember if there was a bridge or not. Otherwise by ferry. Or a long trip by car. I can't find that Dungeness River where the boys catch their salmon. Judy Laird, this is your territory. Come help us.
I went to the gym yesterday and tried the rowing machine for five minutes. Will try it again and need to learn about all its buttons.
This is not a criticsim of Joe, but I wonder if some of the teasing he experienced was good-natured comeraderie on the part of fellow team members. Much like what one gets from siblings. Someone used to sibling teasing might just laugh it off or toss it right back. As far as background goes, these boys weren't too different from him. I'm a bit puzzled by the scene Brown paints of Joe with the guitar when on the train to Poughkeepsie. Was it mean teasing or good-natured?
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Pocock is making the boats out of redwood. In case you've forgotten, here are the trees he used:
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/ellatree.jpg)
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Yes, boys do tease each other endlessly. I guess the difference between good-natured back and forth and mean teasing is the response and what happens after the response.
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So that's what he used for his boat.
'My ambition has always been to be the greatest shell builder in the world....I believe I have attained that goal. (ch 6)
How interesting that we're asked to compare Pocock with another artistic craftsperson, the German film maker Leni Riefenstahl.
'Triumph of the Will was everything Riefenstahl hoped it would be, and it still is considered by many to be the most successful propaganda film of all time.' (p95 'From her earliest years, she displayed an indomitable will to succeed.'
But didn't these two live in two different worlds.
But poor, homeless Joe is still the hero of the story.
'The shell house had become more of a home than the grim confines of his cubicle in the basement of the YMCA....Joe retreated into the life of the shell house. The boys might razz him about his low taste in clothes and music...but at least he felt he had a purpose at the shell house.' (134)
When he does locate his family, he is turned away by his stepmother: 'Make your own life, Joe. Stay out of ours.' Closes the door on him and goes back to playing her violin.
In his own way Joe was just as successful as Pocock or Riefenstahl, wasn't he? His daughter Judy thought so.
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I've just started the book, have gotten to page 11, doubt I'll finish it as I don't feel like reading about the depressing Great Depression.
Marj
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I think Pedin makes an interesting point about the teasing. I've noticed in my own family how differently family members respond to teasing. Some brush it off and tease back while others take it personally and retreat to brood.
The question was asked to compare Pocock and Leni. They were both very driven from an early age, they liked to work alone, were very hands on, innovative and passionate. I get the feeling that Leni could just as well have been making a propaganda film for the British, that the production of the fim was the most important part no matter the message.
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There's a lot of craftsmanship in this section. We also have Charlie McDonald, teaching Joe how to make shakes from imperfect pieces of wood. He knows how to let the wood talk to him, by feel and sound and look, to know if it's good, and how to use the feel of the tools to make them work right. I love these descriptions. This kind of sympathetic understanding and respect for materials and processes is the basis for real craftsmanship.
Pocock works this way too, even more so.
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There's a lot of craftsmanship in this section.
And a lot of examples of resourcefulness. Making the roof shingles is an excellent example of how people through the ages have "made-do" with the resources available. Successfully. Creatively.
Marjifay, stay with us. There is much in this book that is uplifting.
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Yes. Marj, it starts out gloomy, but in a little while, as you get into Joe's story, you really get caught up in it, and it's a really enjoyable read.
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Yes, MARJ, don't leave. You'll see, that is background to understand how admirable people like Joe were.
JONATHAN: what a good summary of this section! And you've certainly captured the indomitable ambition of Pocock and LR. And HALCYON " They were both very driven from an early age, they liked to work alone, were very hands on, innovative and passionate."
And HALCYON, doesn't your comment that Lena could have been working for the British: the film was the thing, not the message, remind you of Pocock, building shells for both Washington and it's competitors? The boat was the thing.
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Too many good comments for one post. Thanks for remembering the roof shingles, PAT.
And you're so right about responses to teasing, MARJ. Imagine me as a girl, taking the snobbery of the girl next door to heart in the story I posted above, instead of seeing it as HER problem.
The ironic end to the story: her father's dying brought about a big financial change in the family; they had to sell the house she had so bragged about, as they could no longer afford it, and move. I barely saw her in the period before she moved, and never afterward. She cut herself off from contact with the neighborhood children.
I don't know if she would have wanted her former "friends" around her at this period, but she had cut herself off from that possibility with her earlier elitism. I imagine, she was afraid of being pitied or even laughed at.
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I'm becoming a ditz: or maybe a Californian. Marj clearly said the tree above was a cottonwood, but when I saw a big tree, I automatically thought redwood.
Worse: Pocock's canoes were neither redwood nor cottonwood. The book clearly states they were cedar.
Oh, well: it's a nice picture of a cottonwood, from which canoes were NOT built.
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This section has lost my interest a bit, but I will trudge through it.
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What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0kwnLzFMls
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In Part Two we see how of the "boat" begins to give meaning to Joe's life. The incredible amount of hard work he had to put in, the experience and significance of the freshman victory, the daily fear of not having enough money to finish school (and then not being able to find work when school was over), and Thula's rejection of him (again) all made the "boat" his raison d'être. I'm sure it will become even more solidified as the book continues. (I wanted to strangle Thula BTW. I certainly identified with Joyce when she was so upset over the way Thula treated him and the way his father abandoned him.) I was gratified to see he was really human after all when he felt the pangs of jealousy because of the many students who just had money for school handed to them. He had to earn every penny by intense physical labor. I suspect, however, that he will have learned more than the students who coasted through school with financial assistance. As Joe bonds more and more with the "boat" and everything that makes the boat so important to him, we will be transported to the inner workings of his mind (at least I hope so). I want to see how he and his teammates were able to achieve what they did, how the coaches kept them going, and how Joe's background of poverty and rejection continued to contribute to his resolve to compete and win. (I have not read ahead, but I am so tempted to do so because I want to see how everything unfolds. Now! But I will read it according to the schedule.) How does everything come together to make the 1936 team victorious? Do we find out what happens to Joe and his teammates after the 1936 Olympics? Again I hope so. I also find it interesting we are privy to what is happening in Germany as the story continues. (Thanks for the post containing the propaganda film. I will watch it tomorrow.)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January Book Club Online:
The Boys in the Boat
by Daniel James Brown
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/boys/boys.jpg) |
The #1 New York Times–bestselling story about American Olympic triumph in Nazi Germany.
"Out of the depths of the Depression comes an irresistible story about beating the odds and finding hope in the most desperate of times—the improbable, intimate account of how nine working-class boys from the American West showed the world at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin what true grit really meant...
The emotional heart of the tale lies with Joe Rantz, a teenager without family or prospects, who rows not only to regain his shattered self-regard but also to find a real place for himself in the world. Drawing on the boys’ own journals and vivid memories of a once-in-a-lifetime shared dream, Brown has created an unforgettable portrait of an era, a celebration of a remarkable achievement, and a chronicle of one extraordinary young man’s personal quest." - Amazon.com
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DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PROLOGUE, PART ONE..............................JANUARY l - 7
PART TWO...............................................JANUARY 8 - 14
PART THREE............................................JANUARY 15 - 21
PART FOUR Ch. 13-15...............................JANUARY 22 - 28
PART FOUR Ch. 16-end.............................JANUARY 29 - FEBRUARY 4~
QUESTIONS PART II
1. We learn a lot about rowing and boat building technique in this section. What did you find most interesting or strange?
2. If you have competed in a different sport, what do you relate to in the rowers' experiences.
3. Joe suffers from the "elitism" of some other boys. What other forms of elitism do we see in this section? Do you see any similar problems in your own life?
4. Why do you think rowing events were so popular as spectator sports then ("as important as the World Series", larger crowds than football games), and not now?
5. Do you find the description of the races exciting? How does the author maintain suspense, when we know the outcome?
6. Does learning about Joe's stepmother's family change your opinion of her?
7. We've now met two different craftspeople/innovators: the English boat builder and the German filmmaker. Do you see any similarities?
RELEVANT LINKS:
1936 Film of Olympic Rowing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HunZsKugJmY)
Daniel James Brown Website and Information (http://www.danieljamesbrown.com/books/the-boys-in-the-boat/)
Interview With the Author, Daniel James Brown (http://www.hectv.org/video/15118/15118/)
Triumph of the Will - Nazi propaganda film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0kwnLzFMls)
Indoor Rowers Training Techniques (http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos)
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com ) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Hysteria:
As Joe bonds more and more with the "boat" and everything that makes the boat so important to him, we will be transported to the inner workings of his mind (at least I hope so).
Thanks to Brown's extensive conversations with Joe, and to Joe's daughter, who talked with her father a lot about his early life, we can get inside Joe's head much more than one normally could. So maybe we will; I hope so too.
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And HALCYON, doesn't your comment that Lena could have been working for the British: the film was the thing, not the message, remind you of Pocock, building shells for both Washington and it's competitors? The boat was the thing.
JoanK, you knew I'd rise to that bait. It's an interesting comparison. For both of them, their craft was the most important thing, but there is a huge moral or ideological difference between them.
Aside from the fact that you couldn't make a living making boats for one team, there is no big difference among the teams--they're all good, maybe some more snobbish than others--and you root for one for personal reasons.
I agree with Halcyon that Leni would have made films for anyone. But she's making films that try to change men's minds, and persuade them of an ideology that was pure evil, and doing a good job of it. The worst was yet to come, but just looking at Triumph of the Will, you can see what's wrong with it. Either she believed, or she was totally irresponsible.
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Ella, thank you for that link to Triumph of the Will. I have a lot to say about it, but not until I watch the last half hour. I'm watching in chunks--can't take too much Sieg Heil at once.
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I know nothing qbout competitive rowing. I have only read one chapter of this book, but I am hooked! The writing is wonderful.
I find it difficult to understand how Joe's father could turn him put at age 10! They seem to have had a close relationship, until the father remarried. I know that none of my own children could have survived, out in the world at age 10! Why did Joe's teacher go along with the plan pf Joe's father?
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SHIELA: WELCOME. Yes, I find it fascinating too.
ELLA: GREAT LINK
PAT: I love to argue with you, sis. Yes, there are different moral implications making propaganda for everyone and making boats for everyone. But isn't the point that craftsmanship operates by its own set of morals -- morals about high levels of craft -- independent of other moral codes. We KNOW that Potock couldn't have been guilty of selling inferior boats to Washington's competitors, it would violate the craftperson's ethic. We DON'T know what he would do if asked to supply boats to the Nazi's. That would require a different ethical standard, which we haven't seen tested.
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BEELAMARIE: I'm sorry you're bored. We're now into the races, and we know how it ends. But there is plenty gong on in the lives of the participants to keep us interested, if we aren't interested in the rowing (which I am).
HYSTERIA "I want to see how everything unfolds. Now!"
I agree. I'm often reminded of the old prayer "Lord, I want more patience and I want it NOW."
I agree with you in wanting to slap Thula! Does hearing about her parents treatment of their grandchildren give more insight into her? They knew the family was struggling, ad had plenty of money. But the only help they gave was to have the children over once a week for a bowl of oatmeal. With parents like that, no wonder Thula didn't know how to be a parent.
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Welcome Sheila! I don't think any of us know competitive rowing - or even rowing!!! From what our author tells us it is very hard work, uses all your muscles. Glad you are joining us.
PATH - I have just started watching TRIUMPH OF THE WILL, in one large chunk, have many more to go, but what I saw was lovely. An airplane flyling over the city of Nuremberg; I don't imagine that airplanes were all that familiar to people in the early 30's, or am I mistaken??? And Hitler smiling, very pleased with it all and why shouldn't he be. The citizens were all in love with him, I think, see the smiles and waves and adoration of the crowd. Very healthy looking folk despite the depression of recent years.
The Versailles treaty, possibly, was the impetus for WWII. The debts that Germany were burdened with was a bit much. I know my husband, who fought in WWII in the Pacific, could not understand the generosity of the US toward Japan after the war. We practically rebuilt the country that had killed so many of our soldiers and sailors; however, on the other hand, we turned an enemy into an ally and found peace with one another.
I think we should put that film - Triumph of the Will - in the heading so we can read it at our leisure.
Would it be safe to say that Hitler was Germany's FDR? He got people working again, giving them jobs, supporting their families, building up hopes for the future.
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Long live Germany! The future belongs to us! Adolph Hitler, 1934.
What an amazing film. Of course, at the time it must have seemed like Germany's New Deal. The film is mesmerizing. With hindsight it seems very grim and ominous. Hitler seems so confident. It seems strange to think that the men who will defeat him are now in training to win a boat race.
But, what a dream that madman had.
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Would it be safe to say that Hitler was Germany's FDR? He got people working again, giving them jobs, supporting their families, building up hopes for the future.
Oh Ella, I can' resist -- what I remember from age 10: One of my aunts, knocking at our door, and saying to my mother and another aunt, "Oh girls. I just heard the news. Hitler isn't dead yet because Roosevelt looked all over hell and couldn't find him." I guess not everybody liked FDR, but we should probably watch what we say in front of the little ones.
I haven't watched much of Triumph of Will yet, and have seen only a little of LR's Festival of Nations (1936). In the latter especially LR appears to have been quite experimental with her photography. I'm not ready to get into the moral discussion yet, but certainly feel that Pocock chose the more difficult path, and one that did not let him compromise his beliefs.
Still reading Section Two. What a surprise to find out that Harry and Thula had moved to 39th ST and Bagley. My daughter lives on that street, between 38th and 39th. When I first visited there over 25 years ago there was a little Mom/Pop coffee-bakery on the corner called The Durn Good. It has moved on a few blocks and now Erwin's (similar to its predecessor) has moved in. My SIL bought the house before they were married. IT was built in 1907 and I assume the neighborhod (Wallingford) was built around that time. THe houses are small and close together. People wanting more room now build UP. (My grands went to Fred's school -- Roosevelt.)
Up to 6 minutes on the rowing machine.
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6 minutes! Yay. Keep up the good work.
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We've got connections. Pedlin's daughter lives in Seattle and Halcyon's son goes to the U of Dub - what fun. HALCYON - has your son ever seen the famous shell in the Shell House on the campus? Do they keep it looking nice, polished, etc. in honor of Pocock and the Boys of 1936?
I think you said everyone on campus is talking about the book. Wouldn't the boys be pleased?
PEDLIN, are you losing weight or just feeling strong and healthy on your rowing machine? So your family were Republicans looking for FDR and Hitler (shame on all of us for putting those names side by side) all over hell and back. And you remember that from age 10, remarkable!
Can we pretend not to remember the horror that Hitler's Germany was to become while watching the film? Will try to watch more, but am not used to sitting in front of a little screen to watch a movie. I skimmed the Internet and there are all kinds of critiques on the film, inclulding one by Roger Ebert.
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I've been thinking about Question 4 in the heading and all I can think of is rowing is definitely an outside sport; you cannot put a river or a lake in a stadium. Perhaps like golf today?
Trivia question, when was the first stadium built in the USA? Of course, all easterners will say over here and westerners say the opposite. Well, we all must check the Internet.
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Can we pretend not to remember the horror that Hitler's Germany was to become while watching the film?
That's not too easy to do, because it's almost all foreshadowed in the film. I've finished it now, and will write up my impressions.
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PAT Either she believed, or she was totally irresponsible.
I think it was a little more complicated. We don't know much about her upbringing or belief system. It is amazing how Hitler brought influenced all the people he did. Do you think they all believed or did fear make believers out of them.
As far as Thula's parents, I wonder why she even agreed to her children visiting their grandparents weekly? I think I would have had more pride but that's not always a good thing.
Could someone tell me how to use the icons above to make italics, bold letters etc? Thank you.
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Oh JoanK, I would not use the word bored to describe this section, it just seemed to be filled with too much of boats, trees and travel that I did not find interesting. Like Joe, I did not give up, and found parts more interesting toward the end.
I am not at all shocked at Thula rejecting Joe, and shutting the door in his face. There just is no excuse for such a hateful, hurtful human being, regardless of how her children were treated. I know many grandparents today who do not want to spend "their" time with grandkids at all, so having the kids once a week, and giving them a bowl of oatmeal may seem harsh to some, but then they did at least interact with them.
I just feel so bad for Joe. I share Joyce's feelings:
As they drove away from the house on Bagley that afternoon, Joyce simmered. Over the years she had been slowly learning more about Joe's parents and what exactly had happened back in Sequim and before that, at the Gold and Ruby mine. She'd learned about his mother's death and the long, lonely train ride to Pennsylvania. And stitching it all together, she could not understand how Thula could have been so cold to a motherless child, nor how Joe's father could have been so impassive in the face of it all. She could not understand, either, why Joe seemed to show so little anger about it all, why he continued to try to ingratiate himself with the two of them, as if none of it had ever happened. Finally, as Joe pulled over to the curb to drop her off at the judge's home, Joyce erupted.
She demanded to know why Joe let his parents treat him as they did. Why did he go on pretending that they hadn't done him any harm? What kind of woman would leave a boy in the world? What kind of father would let her do that? Why didn't he ever get angry at them? Why didn't he just demand that they let him see his half siblings? She was nearly sobbing by the time she finished.
She glanced across the seat at Joe, and saw at once, through a blur of tears, that his eyes were full of hurt too. But his jaw was set, and he stared ahead over the steering wheel rather than turning to look at her.
"You don't understand," he murmured. "They didn't have any choice. There were just too many mouths to fee."
Joyce pondered for a moment, then said, "I just don't understand why you don't get angry."
Joe continued to stare ahead through the windshield. "It takes energy to get angry. It eats you up inside. I can't waste my energy like that and expect to get ahead. Whey they left, it took everything I had in me just to survive. Now I have to stay focused. I've just gotta take care of myself."
Ughhh...this is so heart wrenching, and then to find out, his family move to a small but respectable house at Thirty-Ninth and Bagley, not far from the bakery and not far from the north end of Lake Union where Joe rowed nearly every afternoon.
Does Joe's father even know he is rowing for the university? Do you suppose his father ever goes down and watches the boys rowing?
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pedln, How exciting to know your daughter lives on that street, between 38th and 39th. It's fun when we have someone that can give us a more personal feel to the places we hear of in our books.
6 minutes rowing...woo woo! Good for you! My treadmill and bicycle are still collecting dust into this New Year!
Halcyon, When you want to use the icons above, first you must highlight the section in your post first, then go up and click which icon you want that text to change to. You can bold, italicize and even change color to the same text, just be sure to keep it highlighted, and do one click at a time. Practice a few times, and have fun! My biggest challenge was learning to insert pictures. You can attempt that once you mastered the easier tasks. Good luck!
PatH., Leni would have made films for anyone. But she's making films that try to change men's minds, and persuade them of an ideology that was pure evil, and doing a good job of it.
This part gave me chills because it relates to what is happening today with Paris. The Charlie Hebdo is a publication that has always courted controversy with satirical attacks on political and religious leaders.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-magazine-attack/charlie-hebdo-shooting-12-killed-muhammad-cartoons-magazine-paris-n281266
It makes me ask myself, when do movies, reporters, magazines, even comedians go too far? I was watching the Golden Globes last night, and they were making more fun of the movie that had to be banned due to threats from North Korea, because they felt the satirical comedy was offensive to their leader, Kim Jong-un. I ask myself, when does one go too far? When does one cross the line using The First Amendment of freedom of speech, and it become offensive and irresponsible, and puts themselves or others in grave danger? Makes one ponder......
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Thank you bellamarie
Above is what happened. I highlighted then chose an icon. I must be missing something? Is there some setting I should change. Using an IPad and Apple
Haha It works when I post. Thank you! That was easy.
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ENJOY.
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Ella, that #4 is a very intriguing question. Definitely an outside sport. Another reason might be that there is more competition for fans' time. And schools' money. Would Title 9 had also had an effect? I've been trying to find out, but really don't know just how to find what I want. The article below is from something about the Winklevoss twins -- champion rowers, also managed to get 65M from Mark Zuckerberg who they claim stole Facebook from them.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/london-2012-olympics-blog/2012/jul/31/olympics-2012-usa-rowers-winklevoss
From 1920 to 1956, the USA were dominant in the men's eight category, winning every final. They missed in 1960, but came back in 1964 to reclaim gold. For the next 40 years the USA struggled, failing to capture gold until 2004 when Teti started coaching the men's eight. That year they won gold and broke the dry spell. In 2008, still under the direction of Teti, the team won bronze. After that Olympics, Teti left the national team to coach the men's crew at Berkeley, and the USA men's team hit a rough patch.
After the men's eight failed to qualify last summer for London 2012, Teti was brought back to coach the eight, while still maintaining his coaching job at Berkeley, and Vlahos, who has long had Olympic ambitions, asked to try out. Teti agreed. The day the boat was announced, the chosen rowers put their heads together and decided Vlahos, 23, would be their coxswain. It's a choice, Teti said, that he's never put in his rowers' hands before.
In the men's eight, Vlahos is the most junior in terms of age and experience, but it's clear he's got the stuff to win. In late May, with one last shot at qualifying for the Olympics, the team, with Vlahos at the helm, placed first, earned their spot and turned their focus to Olympic gold.
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WTG Halcyon! ;)
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"Ella, that #4 is a very intriguing question"
Yes, it's hard to imagine rowing being as popular as baseball or football.
Of course, it may be that people were exaggerating the size of the crowds and the excitement. After all, Pedlin's article above calls the Winklevoss twins famous, and though I'm a sports junkie, I've never heard of them. Have any of you?
I think it was the author who said it's a poor spectator sport. I agree. I'm a true sports junkie (watching, not playing). If someone plays it, I'll watch. But I've never gotten into rowing. Perhaps its the very fact that this book talks about: the rowers become one entity not individuals. And in sports we glorify the individual. Perhaps it's because we, as non-experts, can't really see or understand the difference between good and poor performance. They all look alike, and it's a mystery why one boat winds up ahead.
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Question #2, I have competed in volleyball in high school. One thing I can say it compares to with rowing, is it takes a team effort to achieve success. Each person has their job to do, but it must be done as a team. One single player can not bring about the victory.
I've never really been interested in being a spectator of rowing or wrestling. Neither of these sports get much attention here in my hometown. I have always regarded rowing with the elite schools in the east, such as Harvard and Yale. I had never known Washington to have been such a contender, until reading this book. I feel rowing is like yachting, a rich college/men's sport.
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Both Berkeley and U-Dub still have men's and women's crew as a school sport. Men's schedules go from Oct. thru May, even a summer UK race for Washington. With the exception of a few races in the East -- Princeton and Harvard, their other races are on the West Coast.
This article about Stan Pocock, George's son popped up while I was browsing. Some things do last.
Stan (http://www.gohuskies.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=760412&SPID=126635&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=30200&ATCLID=209810979)
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I have to confess that up until now my exposure to competitive sports has been from the couch or stadium seat. (I am now getting physically active by working out on my treadmill and my "rowing" machine, but this is very recent.) I typically watch professional football and baseball, and until I started reading this book I felt that the players, especially football players, earned every penny of their gazillion dollar salaries because of the awful weather they have to play in, not to mention the risk of injury. However, Joe and his crew faced even more adversity. They rowed in the cold, in the heat, in storms (to the extent water was both inside and outside of the boat), and in wind. Sure, football players face the cold and the heat, but they are on land. They are not nearly as vulnerable as competitive rowers are. It is a shame that rowing is not given as much publicity as our "main" sports. Being the cynical person I am, I attribute the lack of support to money. In other words, competitive rowing does not sell like football, basketball and baseball do. Even soccer has a hard time in the US, although it's getting better. The rest of the world goes absolutely nuts over soccer, and we seem to barely notice it. (However, I did go to a qualifying game for World Cup in Denver last March. It was snowing so hard you could hardly see the field. The players had to use an orange ball. The teams wouldn't even consider postponing the game, and fans stood throughout the entire game. There is no sitting in soccer! Soccer fans are unique. The enthusiasm for the game in spite of the snow was incredible. Sorry for the digression.) Rowing is underpublicized to the point I had to do a Google search to see if it was still a collegiate sport. (It is.) I am now going to be checking the sports channels to see if there are any rowing events televised. I surely hope I will find some!
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What a great sport, as everyone has noticed. I'm struck by how vividly it comes out in the detail. As hysteria has just pointed out.
Endless hours in training. 'They rowed through cutting wind, bitter sleet, and occasional snow, well into the dark of night every evening.' (84)
The movements of each rower are so intimately intertwined, so precisely synchronized with the movements of all the others....' (89)
'So every race is a balancing act, a series of delicate and deliberate adjustments of power on one hand and stroke rate on the other.' (94)
There are so many other curious details on the art and technique of rowing. And along with gold medals there are some very unusual rewards:
Joe found a purpose in the life of the shell house. 'The rituals of rowing, the specialized language of the sport...the brutal afternoon workouts left him eshausted and sore but feeling cleansed, as if someone had scrubbed out his soul with a stiff wire brush.' (135)
Earlier, we heard coach Tom Bolles talk 'of near mystical moments on the water - momensts of pride, elation, and deep affection for one's fellow oarsmen, moments they would remember, cherish, and recount to their grandchildren when they were old men. Moments, even, that would bring them nearer to God.' (41)
And the shell builder, George Pocock talked of 'those almost mystical bonds of trust and affection, that might lift a crew above the ordinary sphere, transport it to a place where nine boys somehow became one thing, a thing that was so in tune with the water and the earth and the sky above that, as they rowed, effort was replaced by ecstasy. It was a rare thing, a sacred thing, a thing devoutly to be hoped for.' (48)
Will any other sport give you that much?
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The History of Collegiate Rowing by Daniella Garran, published 12/2012, about 6 months before Boys in the Boat.
Amazon description
The spirit of college athletic competition is captured in this history of collegiate rowing in America. Chart the rise in the popularity of rowing from the first collegiate crew founded at Yale University in 1843 to the development of the over 300 programs nationwide today. Relive the prominent races and regattas that various college crews took part in, including the Head of the Charles, the Eastern Sprints, and the Olympics. Interviews with past and present coaches and rowers, as well as 142 beautiful images illustrate the essence of the sport. This nostalgic celebration of the oldest college sport in the country will be a treasured keepsake for all rowers and their families as well as a wonderful resource for historians and sports enthusiasts.
From the review
However, this is also a serious history of the sport. It is written in an engaging, anecdotal style with extensive coverage of Ivy League and Northeastern racing, the West Coast powers, the rest of the country, the rise of women's and lightweight crews, the coaches and the great national and international competitions.
Complementing the pictures and history is a collection of ephemera: poems, fight songs, sketches, programs that convey the spirit of rowing. There is also detailed factual material on the development of programs in various colleges and universities, and winners of major races.
Now, can anyone find it in their library?
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HYSTERIA, I confess, too; I have never been in a sport, unless you call fishing a sport as JOANK suggests. Loved that. We had a wonderful new YMCA where I lived before moving into a retiring community, with step-down units and I did exercising at the Y for a number of years.
We are all in admiration of you and your rowing machine - merrily we row along, row along, row along..........
PEDIN - this is from the article you posted: "But rowing in the US does not compare in popularity to basketball, track, or swimming. It remains a sport of the empire and, in the US, of the elite.
Still the elite in the USA - some things change, others stay the same.
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Can't believe it, JONATHAN. Is that our author telling of the "ecstasy" - the soul cleansing - and even bringing the crew nearer to GOD? Would those statements embarass our young men?
Every time I hear of the hymn NEARER MY GOD TO THEE I think of the Titanic and the men standing on the deck singing that song, waiting to drown.
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Yes, Jonathan, I do believe we can clearly see that rowing brings the mind, body, soul, and shall we say spirit, closer to the Heavens, to the divinity of God. I love how Joe can find his peace with rowing. After a childhood of abandonment, loss, and hurt, something larger than life is the only hope for him, in his journey into his adulthood. I love how Joyce is a constant in his life. She hurts for him, she wants him to achieve all his goals and dreams in life.
As Joe lays dying, telling his story to DJB, I get the sense he does in fact achieve all he dreamed of. I feel the sense of peacefulness, through the author's writing, and Joe's words.
Ella, "But rowing in the US does not compare in popularity to basketball, track, or swimming. It remains a sport of the empire and, in the US, of the elite.
As I suspected, rowing has and always will be for those with status and money. That is probably why the average person has little interest. I think as spectators or fans, we have to believe while watching a sport it is something either we, or our child can aspire and achieve. The average person can not afford this luxury sport/college. I am amazed at how Joe, was not only able to put himself through college, but maintained the stamina to continue with the rowing, with it's demands on his mind and body. I sense back in the depression, more people were determined to rise above their standards of living, today there seems to be more of an entitlement attitude.
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JONATHAN: again, a good summary.
"nine boys somehow became one thing, a thing that was so in tune with the water and the earth and the sky above that, as they rowed, effort was replaced by ecstasy. It was a rare thing, a sacred thing, a thing devoutly to be hoped for."
And ELLA: " the "ecstasy" - the soul cleansing - and even bringing the crew nearer to GOD?"
This is the thing that fascinates me, this mystical element in rowing that I have seen in other descriptions of it as well (in fact, whenever I've seen rowing discussed). What is going on? Is it found in other sports, too? I don't remember seeing it talked about in other sports. Are elite rowers more articulate, or is it unique to rowing?
BELLAMARIE: " After a childhood of abandonment, loss, and hurt, something larger than life is the only hope for him, in his journey into his adulthood."
That's a very interesting comment. He has been told all his life that he doesn't belong: suddenly he is part of something larger than himself.
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HYSTERIA: I'm glad to find another "couch athlete." You inspire me with your rowing. (I need a lot of inspiring!)
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What a place for our author to insert the story of the Goebbels family! Here we are so happy for Joe and Joyce as they dance, smiling, laughing, giddy with joy. And then Joseph Goebbels, what a monster, and I hope his wife is in some kind of hell for killing her own sweet children. I skimmed the Internet to find a bit about Goebbels' childhood, some answer to how such a monster could have evolved:
"(Joseph) Goebbels had been rejected for military service during World War I because of a crippled foot - the result of contracting polio as a child - and a sense of physical inadequacy tormented him for the rest of his life, reinforced by resentment of the reactions aroused by his diminutive frame, black hair and intellectual background. Bitterly conscious of his deformity and fearful of being regarded as a "bourgeois intellectual," Goebbels overcompensated for his lack of the physical virtues of the strong, healthy, blond, Nordic type by his ideological rectitude and radicalism once he joined the NSDAP in 1922.
The hostility to the intellect of the "little doctor," his contempt for the human race in general and the Jews in particular, and his complete cynicism were an expression of his own intellectual self-hatred and inferiority complexes, his overwhelming need to destroy everything sacred and ignite the same feelings of rage, despair and hatred in his listeners " - - http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/goebbels.html
What do you know of this family who idolized Hitler and devoted their lives to his ideals?
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This is the thing that fascinates me, this mystical element in rowing that I have seen in other descriptions of it as well (in fact, whenever I've seen rowing discussed). What is going on? Is it found in other sports, too? I don't remember seeing it talked about in other sports. Are elite rowers more articulate, or is it unique to rowing?
After reading Brown's description of how a rowing team has to work, I can definitely understand the mystical element. Most teams have to cooperate, interact, know what their teammates are going to do and fit in with it, but rowing takes it one step farther. Everyone has to be exactly on the same page every second. You have to meld together into a composite whole, thinking in tandem, moving in tandem, with the slightest glitch messing up everyone. This has got to have an effect. Either you develop a group sympathy or you lose. Added to this is the feeling of extreme physical effort while surrounded by nature's elements; I can get a good feeling just from making an effort against the water while swimming.
JoanK asks if this feeling is found in other sports. My only experience in team sports is rifle shooting, and if you wanted to pick a polar opposite to rowing, this would probably be it. You aren't interacting with your teammates in a match, you are concentrating so much on what you are doing that you mostly don't even hear the shots around you (and we didn't use hearing protection back then). We mostly didn't even see our opponents, because we didn't have much money for travel, so most matches were done long-distance, with the targets certified and exchanged by mail afterward. We didn't even know who won until later. And if you messed up it might not matter, because a team of ten got to use the best five targets.
Do you get a team spirit from this sort of thing? Yes. We had considerable team spirit and feeling of solidarity, though it certainly didn't rise to mysticism. And every time I have had a conversation with someone who has been on a rifle team, they have said the same thing that I felt, that it was an extraordinarily positive experience. (And they like to talk about it, as you can see by my long-windedness.)
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Will someone please tell me what a foot stretcher is? Thanks, Sheila
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Shiela: thanks for asking that question. I'ts defined as an adjustable plate to which shoes are typically attached.
http://www.rivercitycrew.com/rowing_definitions_&_terminology/
That doesn't really explain how it's used. I realize I'm confused.
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I thought I understood what the rowers were doing until SHIELA'S question made it clear that I didn't. Here's a video that makes it clear. Note her feet in the "foot stretchers".
http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos
This machine is for indoor rowing, but in the boat, it's presumably exactly the same thing, just with a boat around you.
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Don't forget, we start Part three tomorrow.
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Thanks for those links, Joan; they're remarkably informative, especially the video. Especially, I was having trouble visualizing the way you slide back and forth in the track, and now it's clear.
Unfortunately, they suggest that one of my worries which keeps me from trying rowing is true. Although most of my large joints are reasonable, my knees are hugely arthritic. I can't do stationary bikes, not even recumbent ones, and when I swim I have to kick gently, or my knees get in trouble. (I make up for it by also walking in the water to work the leg muscles more.)
Hysteria and pedln, what's the rowing like for the knees? Do you think I could get away with it?
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Here's my ridiculously wordy review of Triumph of the Will. Only read it if it amuses you.
Leni Riefenstahl has always fascinated me the way a cobra is supposed to affect small birds. I see what’s wrong with her, but can’t turn away.
Triumph of the Will is a masterpiece of propaganda, and I feel its power, but I’m not caught, I have a reaction of horror. You can see the whole future here. It starts off softly, with the beautiful rooftops of Nuremberg, Hitler smiling at the masses, the adoring looks of women giving him flowers. There is the glorification of physical prowess: the youths wrestling and playing games. Then the pulling together of the various cultures of Germany, which hasn’t been a united country for even a century: good Aryan faces answering “where are you from?”—“I’m from Friesland”, “I’m from Bavaria”, “I’m from the Danube”, etc, but we’re all part of the whole—“Ein Volk, ein Land”. (One people, one country)
Militarism pushes in with the workers handling their spades like rifles, and you start to see fanaticism and obedience. Look at the young drummer boys, at about 42 minutes, particularly one very young one who seems totally obsessed. We first see the goosestep about half way through, done by the SA or SS (I’m not sure which; they were both onstage). It reappears later. There are wonderful images—a forest of Nazi flags dimly seen marching through the dusk toward a gleaming column which turns out to be the tall podium from which Hitler is about to give a speech, surmounted by a large gleaming eagle.
Of course there is an infinity of political speeches, mostly mercifully short. Hitler was supposed to be able to mesmerize audiences with his charismatic speaking presence, but I don’t see it.
The last part almost totally shows military might, more and more scenes of marching troops. The goosestep reappears, becoming more extreme. It ends with Hitler’s final speech, followed by a large illuminated circle containing the swastika, swelling to fill the screen, then obscured by a rising file of marching troops. Brr.
Music is used very effectively. I didn’t recognize much, except for a few whiffs of Wagner, and, in the scene where they are lowering flags to the ground in tribute, the military funeral song “Ich hatt’ einen Kameraden” (I had a comerade).
There are predictions of the future throughout, but here are two bits from Hitler’s final speech:
Even when our party only consisted of seven men, it proclaimed two principles. First, it wanted to be a party with a world view. And second, it wanted sole power in Germany, without compromise.
The German people are happy in the knowledge that the divisions of the past have been replaced by a high standard leading the nation. We carry the best blood and we know this. We have resolved to keep the leadership of the nation, and never give it up!
Antisemitism isn’t emphasized, but the swastika had already been a symbol for it for some years. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/576371/swastika (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/576371/swastika)
It’s interesting to see that a lot of the swastikas are still horizontal. They are still in transition from symbolizing the footprints of the Buddha to the evil symbol they became.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January Book Club Online:
The Boys in the Boat
by Daniel James Brown
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/boys/boys.jpg) |
The #1 New York Times–bestselling story about American Olympic triumph in Nazi Germany.
"Out of the depths of the Depression comes an irresistible story about beating the odds and finding hope in the most desperate of times—the improbable, intimate account of how nine working-class boys from the American West showed the world at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin what true grit really meant...
The emotional heart of the tale lies with Joe Rantz, a teenager without family or prospects, who rows not only to regain his shattered self-regard but also to find a real place for himself in the world. Drawing on the boys’ own journals and vivid memories of a once-in-a-lifetime shared dream, Brown has created an unforgettable portrait of an era, a celebration of a remarkable achievement, and a chronicle of one extraordinary young man’s personal quest." - Amazon.com
|
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PROLOGUE, PART ONE..............................JANUARY l - 7
PART TWO...............................................JANUARY 8 - 14
PART THREE............................................JANUARY 15 - 21
PART FOUR Ch. 13-15...............................JANUARY 22 - 28
PART FOUR Ch. 16-end.............................JANUARY 29 - FEBRUARY 4~
QUESTIONS PART III
1. Our author starts almost every chapter with Pocock’s words. This chapter presents some of the better ones I think. “social implications” “pulling your own weight” How do these ideas resonate with you?
2. The young love birds, the kind that row a canoe out on the water, sleep a bit, play a guitar, sing a bit and……………how would old Joe describe this without crying?
3. If you had been mistreated by your father and saw him five years later, what would have been your feelings? What would you have said? (pg.160)
4. THE DUST BOWL - we’ve read about it, were any of your parents or family involved? Do watch this short video by Ken Burns:
http://www.thirteen.org/programs/ken-burns/the-dust-bowl-black-sunday/
5. What have you learned about one member of the shell who does not row - the coxswain? (178)
6. The Grand Coulee Dam where Joe worked, brutal work, but the pay was good and it was while he was on the job that Joe had thoughts about the life he was leading, always flat broke, the whole crew business - where was he going. Young lives, young problems, decisions. Was it hard for you to make these life-changing decisions?
7. What did Joe gain from his work at Grand Coulee?
https://www.nwcouncil.org/history/GrandCouleeHistory
8. Ulbrickson stated that he or the team “cannot be arrested for trying.” For Olympic Gold. What obstacles did the coach need to overcome?
9. Pocock said for him the craft of building a boat was like religion. What did he mean?
10. Should the USA have boycotted the 1936 Olympics in protest to Hitler’s new laws? (225)
RELEVANT LINKS:
1936 Film of Olympic Rowing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HunZsKugJmY)
Daniel James Brown Website and Information (http://www.danieljamesbrown.com/books/the-boys-in-the-boat/)
Interview With the Author, Daniel James Brown (http://www.hectv.org/video/15118/15118/)
Triumph of the Will - Nazi propaganda film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0kwnLzFMls)
Indoor Rowers Training Techniques (http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos)
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com ) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Well, it's after midnight on the East coast, so Part III has started. Questions later.
First impressions?
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PAT says of the rifle team:" We had considerable team spirit and feeling of solidarity, though it certainly didn't rise to mysticism. And every time I have had a conversation with someone who has been on a rifle team, they have said the same thing that I felt, that it was an extraordinarily positive experience."
What about the rest of you former team members. JONATHAN: did your curling experiences lead to the same feelings of solidarity?
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AHA, new questions in the heading - PART THREE
We must take attendance here - WHERE DID ALL THE PEOPLE GO - NOT LONG AGO!!!
DO COME BACK, WE ARE BEGINNING A NEW - Okay, ANEW! BEGINNING ANEW!
OLLIE IN FREE, no truant officers will be sent out today, but.........................
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What do you think of when you read these phrases? social implications” “pulling your own weight”
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Behind in my reading, but that's what happens when you try to read more than one book at a time.
Ella, I was absolutely horrifed reading about the Goebbels children. And especially appalling that just about everyone in that bunker knew what was going to happen and nobody could or would do anything about it. I know some refused to give the doses, but that doesn't mean much.
I don't think we should have boycotted the 1936 games. Bravo to all who went, not knowing if they'd win or lose. I haven't read that section yet, so hope I don't change my miind.
JoanK, that rowing video is fantastic. The machine looks exactly like the one at the gym. And the training lessons are so explicit and easy to follow. Thank you, thank you. Now I need to get it on my cell phone, if possible, to use at the gym.
PatH, if you have access, give the rowing machine a try. The orthopedic doc tells me my knees are bone on bone, but I'm not doing exercises to win contests, just to strengthen muscles and work the cardio-vascular system. Just do it at a comfortable level.
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PEDLIN, I don't know if I agree with you about attending/not attending the 1936 Games. Somewhere in the years since, I've read that FDR was slow to recognize the plight of the Jewish people in Hitler's evil empire. Something about a quota he put on immigration. I'll have to find a reference to that again, it seems so cruel today to think about those people needing to get out of their country and there were Jews in America very willing to help.
That rowing video is wonderful, did you notice you can get something in your email every day and, as Pocock says, once you get that rhythm going, that swing, you'll cry out with delight! Sure!
I'm confused about "social implications." What does that mean? It would sound just so grand if I could throw the phrase out now and then among my Current Events group; we meet twice a month to discuss the sorry state of affairs of the world. But I have to understand it first!
Give me an example, please.
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PatH, I posted this before, but my post seems to have disappeared. Or maybe I forgot to hit "post" after I finished writing it. At any rate, I would go to a gym if you have access to one (Gyms participating in Silver Sneakers are free if you are in that program.) or you could go to a sports store to try a rowing machine. I would hate to see you invest money in a machine you can't use. I got mine on Amazon. It was a real cheapie, but I got the bare bones so I wouldn't be out much if I didn't like it. (At the time my local gym did not have one.) My machine is a basic push - pull operation. When you push the seat slides down, and when you pull the seat slides up. So yes the knees have to bend and straighten repetitively. It does not simulate rowing exactly; there are machines out there that do, but I did not want to spend that kind of money.
Now, back to the book. If I had been mistreated (or abandoned) by my father, I don't think I could forgive and forget. In that sense, Joe is a better person than I am. It seemed he looked at each day as a new start. I wish I could do that. It would have made things better in so many ways. Before I retired I never had time to dwell on past mistakes. Now I have all the time in the world, and my life review has not been pretty.
As far as boycotting the 1936 Olympics, yes, the USA probably should have boycotted it. At that point in time however I don't think our leaders could see far enough ahead and did not visualize the monster Hitler would become. The US, being so far away, was not directly affected then. Countries closer to Germany were much more aware of what Hitler was doing, but even they did not move fast enough. I don't remember the exact saying, but it went something like this: "They came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I didn't say anything. Then they came for the (insert group here), but I was not one of them, so I didn't say anything. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to protect me."
Just my thoughts so far. I love this book!
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Good question, Ella, about 'social implications' and 'pulling your own weight.'
I remember seeing 'pulling your own weight' used in the analysis of successful crewing and intended as a motivational encouragement. Was the phrase 'social implication' also used in that context? Or, if we all took up rowing, would that have a social implication, or just a reading club feature. I'm definitely getting interested by what's being said about the sport.
And what's the implication of a 'swing'? Read this:
'the boat...is moving as if on its own. Only then does pain entirely give way to exultation. Rowing then becomes a kind of perfect language. Poetry, that's what a good swing feels like.' (p161)
Has any of you experienced this on your rowing machine? My brother could never stop talking about the glory of a good swing...on the fairway, of course. And here these fellows are finding it on the water!
It must be such a downer for athletes anticipating an Olympics with political implications. We've seen that in recent years at Beijing and Sochi, haven't we?
A lot of good sharpshooting, Pat, in your review of Triumph of the Will. Keep your posts long. They're such a treat.
And then there is that other Joe in our book. Dr Goebbels. What a contrast to our Joe. Both showed such character. In such different ways. Physically, it was no contest.
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"Somewhere in the years since, I've read that FDR was slow to recognize the plight of the Jewish people in Hitler's evil empire. Something about a quota he put on immigration."
Doris mills Goodwin talks about this in her book about Roosevelt during the war years. She claims that the person in charge in the State Department (who was anti-Semitic) persuaded Roosevelt that if he allowed Jews fleeing Hitler to enter the country, he risked letting in German spies. So you could only enter if you could find an American sponsor. of course most Germans had no idea how to do that.
That was the problem. There was a time when Hitler was letting Jews out of Germany, but no country was letting them in. So many who tried to flee couldn't. I'm proud that my parents did take in a young German girl, fleeing from the camps. I was a child, and wasn't told her story. By day, she was a friendly young woman. But at night, I could hear her screaming in her sleep from nightmares.
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Ollie, ollie oxen free......not it! Sorry, I read section three and did not want to comment too soon, and realized the days passed me by.
This section just reiterates the struggles Joe has had to overcome in his life. I am just amazed at everything he goes through and still can feel okay with is father. My heart just keeps breaking for him. He has to sneak in visits to see his Dad, then his Dad tells him he can come see his siblings at times Thula and he are away. While spending his short visits with his Dad, it appears all his Dad can do is talk about himself, and never seems to ask Joe how he is doing, or anything about his rowing. Does he even know how good Joe is at the sport? I have seen no indication in all these pages where Joe shares with his father, he is on a rowing team, and they won a very prestigious rowing match.
So now Thula has died. Joe feels the the ground shifting from under him.
pg. 250 "Over the years he had pondered what he might have done to make things better between them later, when the trouble had started. How he might have tried harder to get along with her, to sympathize with her own cramped circumstances, maybe even to see at least some of what his father had seen in her.
Now he would never have a chance to show her what he could become. But he also found that there were limits to his regret, and beyond a certain point he simply couldn't feel much of anything for her. Mostly, he worried about his father, and even more about his half siblings.
It astounds me how Joe even gives a thought to him being able to show Thula what he could become. This woman could have cared less about him. She was more interested in cramped living quarters and achieving her goals as a violinist.
Joe goes to see his father and what does he hear?
"Finally, he turned to Joe and said, "Son, I've got a plan. I'm going to build a house where we can all live together. As soon as it's done, I want you to come home."
Joe finally allows himself to feel anger, an emotion Joyce had asked him about earlier:
But he drove back to the YMCA that night not sure what to do, confusion morphing into resentment, resentment merging into silent anger, and anger giving way again to confusion, all of it washing over him in waves.
Joe is not only struggling with the fact he is not able to stay focused with his rowing, that the coach is losing confidence in him, but he is also having to struggle now with the emotions of losing the camaraderie of his two rowing mate, Thula's death, and his father's expectations of coming to live with them. Not to mention, he has to come up with the money for this next year of college. All I can say is the lyrics in from a Kelly Clarkson comes to my mind...."What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." Well, Joe should be a man of steel.
The one bright spot in these pages of this section is that Pocock has taken Joe under his wing.
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BELLAMARIE:"It astounds me how Joe even gives a thought to him being able to show Thula what he could become."
Yes, as flawed as she is, she's still a mother figure, and we all want to make our parents proud of us, however bad parents they are. At some level, I'll bet he blames himself.
HYSTERIA: thanks for the good rowing advice. I love this book, too.
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I should have said: the new questions are in the heading. I'm interested in Q 5:
5. What have you learned about one member of the shell who does not row - the coxswain?
How do you become a coxswain, I wonder? Are these rowers who are promoted, or is it a different path? It seems to me an almost impossible job, calling out the strokes so regularly. You feel the difference between 32 and 34 strokes a minute. And while you're doing it, thinking of strategy!
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Thanks, pedln and Hysteria, for the rowing comments. The YMCA where I swim used to have rowing machines, probable still does, but I never go in that room so don't know for sure. So if I want to try it, it would be easy enough.
Jonathan:And then there is that other Joe in our book. Dr Goebbels. What a contrast to our Joe. Both showed such character. In such different ways. Physically, it was no contest.
That made me chuckle. I could just see Joe squashing Goebbels like a bug and hardly noticing.
JoanK, I'm betting there has to be a different path for coxswain, since they are smaller than the rowers. Brown says that now, coxswains of men's teams are often women. You don't have to be as fit, but you do have to be very clever at it, getting the psychology of the team, and its physical limits, so you know just what you can ask for and when to do so. It seems an odd thing to choose deliberately. Maybe you do it if you love rowing but don't have the physique for competition.
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JOanK, the coxswain has a lot of responsibility just guiding the boat. He's the only one who sees where the boat is going. The rowers are all seeing where they've been. He (or now maybe a she) determines the SPMs (strokes per minute), when they speed up, when they slow down. It seems to me that next to the coach, the coxswain is boss.
Well, Joe should be a man of steel.
Good point and well-said, Bellamarie.
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"A good swing feels llike poetry" - JONATHAN quoted. I think out author does a great job in writing this book, making of Joe's story more romantic, you might say, than it truly was. He makes the "ups and downs" of Joe's life so dramatic, so fascinataing, I must read his other two books. when I get to a library. In my present state it will be awhile.
JOANK, I would like to hear more about the German girl who lived with you during those turbulent years; "screaming at night." How long did she stay? Was she able to go back to Germany and reunite with relatives? What good parents you had. After the war, our church sponsored a young family, two children with their parents, to come to America from Germany. We found the father a job and housing, you had to do that before they could immigrate.
BELLE, thanks for your comments about Joe, our author does a wonderful job of portraying Joe doesn's he? I'm astounded, too. DB must have been very impressed with Joe to write so beautifully of Joe's feelings.
I agree PEDLIN, the coxswain is the boss - the leader in the boat. He must have leadership abilities to command, control and direct the crew who are larger and physically stronger men. Nowadays, our author says, females are often the coxswain in an all-male crew. Imagine, a small female bossing around those large, physically fit young males; I bet she is the envy of the whole university.
Somewhere in the book is a picture of Bobby Moch, our boys in the boat coxswain. A cute kid, small, but popular with the crew; a picture also of Bobby with the other team members. I must go look for it.
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ELLA: the girl moved on, and I lost track of her (I was a small child at the time). Pat may know more than I do.
There will be many competitions on the way to the Olympics, but it seems as if the most bitter is within the team to determine who will be in the top shell. Joe's shellmates are his family, and he doesn't speak to those in other shells. When he's moved to a different boat, it's devastating.
What does this tell us about the bonds that form between teammates -- strong, but temporary, and determined by someone else?
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Sorry I've been MIA. Spending lots of time on Latin. I've decided to take the National Latin Exam. Anyway I've finished the book and want to comment on question #2. Joyce is very devoted to Joe, has been since riding to school on the bus and listening to him play his guitar. It seems that kind of devotion is a thing of the past. I watched my father show that kind of devotion to my mother and marvelled. Maybe it just seems like a more romantic time.
As far as going to the 1936 Olympics, I wonder if we had boycotted and not been taken in by Hitler's showcasing of Germany if would we have entered the war earlier.
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Halcyon, hooray for you, going for the National Latin Exam. As you know better than I, Ginny's classes are a great foundation for this test.
Devotion--I don't think it's totally dead, I've seen some examples, but maybe it's rare now. Joyce and Joe were lucky to find each other. Each had been hurt by life in a way that the other was able to heal.
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Ella, I'm not sure how long the refugee stayed with us--a year or two--but other family members got here too, and eventually they all ended up on the west coast, and settled down to live normal lives. There wouldn't have been family in Europe to go back to; everyone would either have gotten out or been killed.
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PATH, just have a few minutes. I did want to thank you for your summary of the film - TRIUMPH OF THE WILL. I was surprised to read this:
"In India the swastika continues to be the most widely used auspicious symbol of Hindus, Jainas, and Buddhists
One would think such a despicable symbol of Nazi Germany would be hidden forever. I think we learn more about Leni, Htler's photographer, later in the book.
I know there is a White House photographer. Are there three shifts of photographers so one would be on hand at all times to capture those historical moments? Does each president appoint his own or how are they appointed?
HALCYON, you ask an interestng question about entering the war earlier. As I recall my history of this period, FDR saw the danger of Hitler's Germany, but the public were very much against any intervention, having inter-vened in Europe in 1914. My FIL was in WWI; his son, my husband, was in WWII.
As I think about that, I wonder if father and son have been in our Middle East wars.
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Questions 6 and 7. I've always been interested in how, when, why young people decide about their future. It is so difficult. Mentors help, sometimes they get it wrong, you get it wrong, start over. When are you certain you made the right decisions for you, the life you hold in your hands and head.
Joe and Joyce shared their troubles, their good times, and encouraged each other through the tough tims.
Who do you marry, if you do? Can you envision the life you will have in the future, did you and your spouse talk about your goals.?
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One thing that frustrated and puzzled me in the first sections: why was Joe's rowing performance so variable? His team, too, seemed to have a wide variation of good days and bad days. Ulbrickson is frustrated by it too, and after studying Joe for a while he enlists Pocock's help to try to figure Joe out. They seem to like each other's company, and Joe starts to open out to Pocock. We still don't have the whole story, though we're getting a lot of clues.
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HYSTERIA: you finished the book! Don't tell us how it ends. ; I hope you still enjoy the discussion.
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Actually, no I haven't finished the book. I stopped reading at the end of Part III. But I was tempted!
Rowing is the ultimate team sport. The coordination of 8 rowers must be precise. Individual and team discipline can result in triumph or defeat, depending on the communication between the rowers and the coxswain. As the author pointed out, there are no stars. There is no MVP award. The whole is indeed greater than the sum of its parts. You don't see this in baseball or football. Star status is encouraged, even demanded by coaches and the players themselves. Think Heisman Trophy. From what I have learned about rowing, there can be no star. A missed catch, an interception, an error can all cost the team the game. However, the team can recover and go on to win. But if one rower's timing is off, the team becomes dysfunctional and has no chance. The rowing team may be made up of differing personalities and physical capabilities, but these differences do not take center stage and dictate the performance of the team. How very different this is for those of us used to watching the traditional team sports! And how refreshing!
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PatH., I am with you. It seems every time Ulbrickson would place Joe's boat in first position, after they would win a meet, the guys would row horribly and be demoted back to third boat. Why did it seem to be so difficult for the 8 boys to accept they earned the 1st boat position? I was getting frustrated reading how they continued to go back and forth, do so good, and then so badly.
Ella, Who do you marry, if you do? Can you envision the life you will have in the future, did you and your spouse talk about your goals.?
My hubby and I have been married almost forty-four years. We fell in love and jumped in with no plans, visions or college degrees. His mother suggested we wait and plan out our paths, he had just come home from the Air Force, and went to work in a local paint store. I had just graduated high school, and was an assistant manager at a local Jack in the Box. I gave up my job to move to his hometown.
Joe and Joyce seem to be making good choices where their relationship is concerned. I see them to be very responsible for their ages.
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" As the author pointed out, there are no stars. There is no MVP award. The whole is indeed greater than the sum of its parts. " - HYSTERIA
I wonder if this is the reason that rowing today is not a popular, crowd-pleasing sport. We need heros, we need the individual hero don't you think? The quarterback, the pitcher, the Magic Johnson heros. We can tell little boys, who idolize them, they, too, can grow up to be one. Practice!
Just for fun here is the Heisman Trophy winners (I live in Ohio, so please note the multiple winners from my state, GO BUCKEYES)
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Heisman_Trophy_winners
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Ella, I think rowing isn't as popular today because it's for the elite, the income brackets of six figures. The high schools in my town that offer rowing are the private Catholic ones, with a tuition of at least ten thousand dollars a year. Football and basketball seem to be the two most popular sports, next is baseball, and soccer is gaining.
You won't find too many like Joe Rantz today. If a boy/girl shows a strong skill in a sport, they receive scholarships or grants. I know of some high schools and colleges willing to pay the full ride, to get certain athletes to their school for a sport.
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WHY?
Can't be an expensive sport, all you need are the shells - AND WATER!!! No stadium, no court. And it would offer some boys/girls a chance to be in a sport who normally wouldn't make it.
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JOANK I am the one who finished reading the book and, yes, I am still enjoying the discussion.
There are only two private high schools remotely near where I live and as far as I know neither one offers crew but here are lots of colleges that still do and not all of them are Ivy League. Perhaps being raised in a time when there are so many choices crew has taken a back seat. Probably doesn't seem quite as exciting as some of the extreme sports.
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I meant expensive, because the schools/colleges that offer it, generally are expensive to attend, not referring to equipment, gear, etc.
This link is interesting..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_rowing_%28United_States%29
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worst manmade environmental catastrophe in our history - Ken Burns
Watch this short video of the Dust Bowl. Have you read a book about it? Would you like to discuss one? Our author states the "cold, dry winds scoured from dry fields more than two times the amount of soil that had been excavated from the Panama Canal and lifted it eight thousand feet into the sky."
Frightening!
http://about.bankofamerica.com/en-us/global-impact/ken-burns-dust-bowl.html#fbid=FK1cF9-t0K2
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BELLAMARIE.: interesting article. Some points: the first intercollegiate competition in the US was the Harvard-Yale race of 1852. Washington didn't establish rowing until1903.
"In the 2002-03 school year there were 1,712 male and 6,690 female collegiate rowers." So it's becoming more popular with women than men in colleges?
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HALCYON: SORRY. I would forget my own name, if I didn't tattoo it on my hand. :)
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A sport doesn't need to call for expensive equipment to get a reputation as elitist. Look at cricket.
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Thanks for the comments, all of you! Joan and I truly appreciate your interest in the book.
What an interesting discussion we are having and now two entirely different subjects show up in the book; as we have said before, this author knows how to write, how to keep our interest. The era that the boys are liviing in - the Dust Bowl, Germany; just when things were looking up for the average person trying to make a living, an average person that had survived the crash of '29.
We found this picture of the dust bowl on the Internet. What would you do? Try to run faster than the wind?
(http://www.weru.ksu.edu/new_weru/multimedia/dustbowl/big/theb1365.jpg)
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I can't imagine living through these dust storms. They remind me of the Santa Ana winds.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/santa-ana-winds-ravaging-western-united-states-insane-15071562
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And after you've survived the storm, your cows are all dead, and the good topsoil is all gone, leaving you no way to make a living.
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Joe and Joyce seem to be making good choices where their relationship is concerned. I see them to be very responsible for their ages.
They are responsible and very focussed. They know exactly what they want, and have a game plan to get it.
Joe is having to figure out his plan on a much more brutal level than I ever did. He's fighting for survival. If he wants to be able to earn a decent living, he needs an education, and to get it he has to earn the money to pay for it, by whatever means he can. We don't know how he picked his field--chemical engineering. There were probably plenty of jobs in it, but it's not the sort of thing you pick without some aptitude or liking.
I had it easy. I knew from an early age that I wanted to be a scientist, and I knew that there would be money to pay for my education. The rest was just detail, and fell into place fairly readily.
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PatH., How exciting for you to have known your path, and to have the money to achieve it.
College was not even on my radar. My guidance counselor did not do a very good job in helping me see my opportunities, my mother and stepfather were both from the south with little education, and no guidance from them. I had no idea what type of career I could even consider, but I did know there was NO money to help me in any way. I took a job at the local Jack in the Box at the age of seventeen, and when I graduated and turned eighteen, I was told I had to pay rent to continue living at home. So, I moved out into an apartment with two girlfriends, and met my hubby. I so often wonder how different things would have been, had I had better guidance. Although, I am happily married and would not ever change that.
I went to read my book today, only to find it has expired, and I can not get another copy until it is available in my library. I can purchase it from ibook for $2.99 which is not bad, but then I really did not want to own it. I will wait a couple days to see if it comes available. There are 20 ebooks, and six people ahead of me. All hard copies are out, and not due back til the end of the month. Boooo....
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January Book Club Online:
The Boys in the Boat
by Daniel James Brown
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/boys/boys.jpg) |
The #1 New York Times–bestselling story about American Olympic triumph in Nazi Germany.
"Out of the depths of the Depression comes an irresistible story about beating the odds and finding hope in the most desperate of times—the improbable, intimate account of how nine working-class boys from the American West showed the world at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin what true grit really meant...
The emotional heart of the tale lies with Joe Rantz, a teenager without family or prospects, who rows not only to regain his shattered self-regard but also to find a real place for himself in the world. Drawing on the boys’ own journals and vivid memories of a once-in-a-lifetime shared dream, Brown has created an unforgettable portrait of an era, a celebration of a remarkable achievement, and a chronicle of one extraordinary young man’s personal quest." - Amazon.com
|
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PROLOGUE, PART ONE..............................JANUARY l - 7
PART TWO...............................................JANUARY 8 - 14
PART THREE............................................JANUARY 15 - 21
PART FOUR Ch. 13-15...............................JANUARY 22 - 28
PART FOUR Ch. 16-end.............................JANUARY 29 - FEBRUARY 4~
QUESTIONS PART IV Chapters 13-15
1. The author gives several explanations for Joe and the other boys sudden improvement in rowing. Which do you find most plausible?
2. Of all the races described here, which is most exciting? Why?
3. How can the Washington boat pass other boats while rowing at a slower pace?
4. Have you ever "gotten your swing" in anything? How does it happen?
5. In New York City, one of the boys says he still has most of the $14 he started with left, but is afraid it wont last. How is these boys' handling of money different from boys today? Why? What does that mean for society?
6. Nowadays, many coxswains in boys boats are women. Why? What problems might a woman face in that job?
7. The Schmeling/ Louis fight is an example of how superiority in sports may be thought to mean National superiority. Do we still feel that way? Why? Is it justified?
RELEVANT LINKS:
1936 Film of Olympic Rowing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HunZsKugJmY)
Daniel James Brown Website and Information (http://www.danieljamesbrown.com/books/the-boys-in-the-boat/)
Interview With the Author, Daniel James Brown (http://www.hectv.org/video/15118/15118/)
Triumph of the Will - Nazi propaganda film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0kwnLzFMls)
Indoor Rowers Training Techniques (http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos)
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com ) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I would be interested in reading a book about the Dust Bowl. Can't imagine living through that. we certainly have things much easier today.
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Ella. That is some picture! How terrifying those ciouds must have been for people. About the only thing a prtson could do. was pray.
Yes, I would like to read, and discuss a book about the dust bowl.
Sheila
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How horrible! And have any of you experiences Santa Ana winds like those in BELLAMARIE's clip?
I hope we don't lose you to the library waiting list! Hang in there. And isn't it great that those of us who missed a chance to go to college when young can still have opportunities to learn through sites like this!
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People felt helpless and scared by the dustbowl and lack of jobs. But a few good things came out of the depression. One was the Grand Coulee Dam. I saw it many decades ago, and I couldn't find a picture that lets you see how gigantic that wall is that Joe clung to. But play a bit of this, and you'll get the idea.
http://www.usbr.gov/pn/grandcoulee/
Have any of the rest of you been there?
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Bellamarie, I notice you managed to find unconventional paths to putting your considerable abilities to work.
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The picture of the dam above shows the wall when the lake is full of water, so you only see the part that sticks out above the water. When the lake is empty, as it was when I was there, you can see the whole 550 feet of height, and imagine how scary it was for Joe to work suspended. It is the largest concrete structure in the world.
The video goes on and on, but even a little gives you a sense of the size of the place.
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MWAK, the consortium of companies building the dam - the Grand Coulee. Who put that together, do you suppose?
And Shacktown, where Joe, with his new friends, Chuck and Johnnie, all lived - where did that name come from? I suppose just from the shacks they lived in, many constructed from just tar paper. I've never understood exactly what tar paper is, I must look it up. Too late tonight!.
But don't you love the stories that our author tells about the boys, the way they lived, elderly Joe remembered all that? I went to the NOTES about Chapter Eleven and our author states that "in places here I have supplemented his (Joe) description of the physical environment with my own observations, drawn while driving his route and exploring the site myself."
Methinks our author has done that numerous - NUMEROUS times throughout the book, do you agree?
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Lots of interesting comments and links here. Ella, throughout our reading of this book I've been reminded of a book my f2f group read a few years back -- The Worst Hard Time by Timothy Egan, about the dust storms and those who survived them. But I thought it an excellent book and it was well-received by the club. One thing that has stayed with me is a comment about Hoover or Roosevelt (not sure which) who left grains/produce sitting by the tracks, not allowing them to be loaded onto the trains. I think Egan is a journalist or columnist. I've seen some by him in newspapers online.
I don't really know why we've been saying rowing is elitist. The link that Bellamarie put up shows many colleges and universities participating in this sport, including regional and public colleges and universities. What's interesting are the changes that have taken place since the 1930's. (I wonder if the sport stopped during WWII). Now there are both men's and women's crew, there is lightweight crew and also 4-man boats. My son was interested when he went to college, but didn't participate because he said he weighed too much for lightweight and not enough for regular crew.
In this Part III that we're still on I was shocked at the city of Seattle and its treatment of Johnny White's family. Here the parents were trying to make a comeback with their gardens after losing their business and the city condems the gardens and takes them by eminent domain.
Couldn't help thinking about Joe Rantz while watching the state of the union address. Need I explain why? :)
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Thank you PatH., and JoanK., yes I did manage quite well considering no college. I can't begin to tell you how much history, art, culture, literature, and geography I have learned being with SeniorNet and SeniorLearn. You ladies are our very own professors, teachers, scientists, tour guides, etc. This is so much better than having to drive to a college and sit in a classroom!
Ella, I went to the NOTES about Chapter Eleven and our author states that "in places here I have supplemented his (Joe) description of the physical environment with my own observations, drawn while driving his route and exploring the site myself."
This does not surprise me. I love how authors retrace the areas, of the places they are writing about, to experience the personal surroundings their subject has lived.
I think I will pay the $2.99 to finish reading the book. Then my hubby can read it too. He has been asking me more questions about it, since he finished the Louis Zamperini book, Don't Give Up and Don't Give In.
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Part 4, Chapters 13-15 starts tomorrow. this takes the boys through the Olympic trials and ends with them on the boat to Germany.
These last two sections are long, and we had planned to spend a week on each, going over into February. Does anyone want to go faster: say spend five days on each?
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PEDLIN, eminent domain is a questionable area of the law, as you know; both sides have equitable rights, it seems to me. Government, whether city, state, federal, must use that law at times for the good of all - highways, in particular, and yet the land was paid for and is being used by landowners. It happened to us shortly after we bought a house on two acres; the state needed a slice of it for an exit from a new road. Although one can understand the government's point of view, it's real difficult for the owner.
Yes, I do want to hear why Joe Rantz came to mind while listening to Obama's speech. I usually listen to all state of the union speeches, but missed that one. Read about it next day.
I agree, BELLE, our author has done a fantastic job describing scenes, how else could he keep our interest throughout the book, Joe's story was the outline and our author filled in the details. His own words, his own descriptions, his own "imagination" sometimes do you think?
Meanwhile, in Germany, one of most wretched, horrible, hated Nazi rallies, Rally For Freedom, was going on. We meet up with Leni Riefenstahl again, although later she attempted to forget she was ever at the Rally.
If you had sat through such a speech, given that you were a patriotic citizen of Germany, could you have "Heiled Hiter" afterwards? Why didn't the German people react to such laws?
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'Meanwhile, in Germany...'
And that's what makes the book so interesting. Fascinating to read on how to go about winning a boat race, and have lots of other things brought in for interest, like construction of a massive power dam in the U.S., a giant political rally in Germany, and a president's state of the union address to Congress. Of course, a guy like Joe should be helped. A free education would be nice. That was one of Obama's great speeches. He had great fun delivering it. Compare that to one of Hitler's rants. Strange to think that while the great reclamation project was going on at Grand Coulee, a magnificent sports facility was being created in Berlin.
It has been interesting to spend time with the great links. First Riefenstahl's unusual filming of Triumph of the Will, at Nurmeberg. And now on the magnificent Grand Coulee dam. What a surprise to find another link on the dam site to The Wonderful and Horrible life of Leni Riefenstahl. What a coincidence. She lived to be a hundred but could never live down her association with Hitler and the Nazis.
Like Halcyon, I've been MIA. I've been reading ahead. Just got too impatient.
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Let's stop and comment briefly on the run-up to the Olympics, Chapters 13-15 and then go to Berlin.
Questions up soon.
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The questions for Chapters 13-15 are in the heading.
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I'm a little confused. Starting tomorrow, we'll talk about chapters 13-15? Then in a few days move on to the next section?
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It was my confusion, PATH. We will continue with Chapters 13 - 15 -- lots of splendid reading, our splendid discussion continues, the boys are just getting excited about the Olympics, after lots of talking about it.
Wouldn't you like to sit in on that conversation, the excitement it held, but they are warned by the coach, the price would be brutal, punishing practice!
I remember when the early Olympics were first televised, I think it was, my children were starting competitive swimming in our local pool and Mark Spitz was swimming - how neat he looked going through that water!
Do you remember one particular year for the Olympics?
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Just a quick followup on Triumph of Will. It was a powerful propaganda film designed to instill pride in country and enthusiasm for Hitler's mission. Of course the target audience had no idea of the horrors which were to come. Hitler was very skillful and managed to draw in almost everyone who attended the rallies. People applauded his vision of Germany as a powerful country. Since Germany was a downtrodden nation after suffering defeat in WWI, the people were more than ready to see Germany rise to the top once again. He of course did not reveal his entire plan, even though there were references to a "pure" German people. We who watch the film now of course know the end result. But the film was very skillfully done.
I found a book on Amazon.com which looks very intriguing. It's called Hitler's Charisma: Leading Millions into the Abyss. I may end up having to buy the Kindle version because my library does not have it. Has anyone else heard of this book?
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The Reich Citizenship Law:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/nurmlaw3.html
"In the next few months and years, the Reichstag would add dozens of additional laws restricting every aspect of the lives of German Jews, until, in effect, simply being Jewish was outlawed."
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Hysteria, I never heard of that book either, but it looks interesting. Here's a review:
https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/laurence-rees/hitlers-charisma/ (https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/laurence-rees/hitlers-charisma/)
It looks like it's available online.
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What a surprise to find another link on the dam site to The Wonderful and Horrible life of Leni Riefenstahl. What a coincidence. She lived to be a hundred but could never live down her association with Hitler and the Nazis.
The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl was filmed in 1993. Riefenstahl herself is in it, in person as well as older footage. She explains at great length how she was politically innocent, only interested in her art, and didn't understand what Hitler's regime was really like, and it's almost funny, how obviously she's lying or dodging issues. It's good, and I wouldn't mind watching it again, but there are some archival Holocaust scenes that I REALLY don't want to see again.
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Oh dear Jonathan, we will have to agree to disagree on our opinions of that State of the Union speech. I saw it as yet more hope & change, which Obama knows, even some of his party will not go along with. He needs to set the agenda for the next election, even though as he said, he will no longer be running. But yes, yet another of his fine campaign speeches indeed!
I think about how this can actually be considered political tactics, that all leaders and politicians use:
hysteria, It was a powerful propaganda film designed to instill pride in country and enthusiasm for Hitler's mission. Of course the target audience had no idea of the horrors which were to come. Hitler was very skillful and managed to draw in almost everyone who attended the rallies.
Regardless of the country, the ideology, or the hidden agenda, we have seen this throughout time. Producers, celebrities, ads, news media, rallies, etc., etc. They help draw in the people of their party with visuals, music, movies, speeches, etc., while the people are in the dark of what is to come. I think ALL people want to believe in their leader/president. They want to believe they have their best interest at the heart of their policies and actions, yet time and time again, we see that is not necessarily so.
Well, on to Germany and the Olympics in the next section.... still no book available through my library, so I will purchase it to finish the book, and have my seat at the Olympics!
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Of course, a guy like Joe should be helped. A free education would be nice. That was one of Obama's great speeches. He had great fun delivering it.
That was my first thought as well. Obama has always believed in education as a pathway to success in this country. His two year plan will probably never get off the ground (at least not in the next two years), but maybe someday...
I wonder if there was a strong objection to the GI Bill when it was first introduced. I know my father would never have been able to go to college if it weren't for that. There is also a great deal of debate now over student loans. I am familiar with this as well, since my son is saddled with one and will be for a long time. Of course the idea of student loans hadn't been born yet when Joe was a student. It was "pay as you go or don't go."
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JONATHAN: "What a surprise to find another link on the dam site to The Wonderful and Horrible life of Leni Riefenstahl."
That blew by me the first time I read it. I missed that completely. where was the reference?
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3. How can the Washington boat pass other boats while rowing at a slower pace?
That is a good question and could have many answers. Haven't we been getting many tips on why one crew is faster than another. So much is involved. Technique and psychology. On the other hand it may have to do with the coxwain's strategy. Perhaps the boat had George Pocock's special blessing. (The California coach had his suspicions about the shell builder's secret influence) Perhaps it was the extra coat of varnish. But we're also told that speed depends basically on the two things: the number of strokes per minute, and the power of the indidual stroke. It was probably the power of the stroke.
Joan, I can't explain it. I watched my way through the playlist in your link. At the end it had a display of another playlist, including, in the upper right hand corner, the link to Riefenstahl. I've just looked for it again but it's no longer there. Where did you find it, Pat?
Politics aside, Bellamarie, I found a wonderful difference in a speech by Obama, addressing his nation, and a speech by Hitler. Hitler had his hopes and dreams. Why the Jews stood in his way is beyond comprehension. Blame it on the insane turmoil in Europe in the last century. Some wanted to create a new civilization on the model partly of Rome and Athens, with prophets such as Wagner and Nietzche, while others dreamed of a New Jerusalem with Marx and Engels leading the way. What a dreadful cost in lives. I find the references in the book unsettling.
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Jonathan, I didn't look for a link to The Wonderful Horrible Life... I was talking about it from memory. Now I'll look for one, My first attempt found a good one, but dubbed in Russian. The opening visuals were enough to convince me I'll have to watch it again. If I find a good link, I'll post it.
Moving faster with a slower stroke rate: reading between the lines of this section tells me how you can do this. Your strokes have to be more powerful, and also more perfect in terms of not doing anything that slows you down aerodynamically. Then you move more feet forward with each stroke, so you don't have to take so many strokes. The faster you're going, the harder it is to keep your strokes strong and aerodynamically good. So there's a tradeoff, and each team would have different points where it would be best to increase the stroke rate.
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JONATHAN: maybe they put that link in just for you! ;)
PATH: "The faster you're going, the harder it is to keep your strokes strong and aerodynamically good"
Yes, there seems to be a low speed around 30 where the boys really "get their swing." A boy in one boat they passed at a slow stroke rate said "they move five feet for our three."
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So far my search suggests that The Wonderful, Horrible Life... has managed to keep it's copyright protection intact. I only found the Russian version. It's worth watching the first two plus minutes of this, before language even enters. That's Leni, taking underwater pictures. She got her scuba diver's certificate in her 60s or 70s, having lied a lot about her age, since there was an age cutoff. That's also Leni dancing with African natives. They're probably Nuba, since she did a big photographic study of that tribe. If anyone can find a better link, I welcome it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x79ZphZ-x74 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x79ZphZ-x74)
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I watched this one last night, I don't know why we find her so fascinating; perhaps one of the few women who were somewhat involved with Hitler; she denies any connection, of course. She is 100 I believe in this one (I watched it last night late, so am not sure of detail).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjgYS8uXwFk
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THE HINDENBURG:
"On the outside of the Hindenburg, two large, black swastikas on a white circle surrounded by a red rectangle (the Nazi emblem) were emblazoned on two tail fins. Also on the outside of the Hindenburg was "D-LZ129" painted in black and the airship's name, "hindenburg" painted in scarlet, Gothic script. For its appearance at the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin in August, the Olympic rings were painted on the side of the Hindenburg."
http://history1900s.about.com/od/1930s/a/hindenburg.htm
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I can't think of anything more chilling than to see swastikas painted on the same blimp as the Olympic circles. But in 1936 the story was just beginning. I really must read more about that actual time period, as I tend to get dates mixed up. But since the war did not end until 1945, I would think in 1936 horrors of the Third Reich were just beginning to unfold.
Now as to getting the "swing": I can understand it, but I am having trouble narrowing it down to a specific time in a competitive race. I suppose it could be equated to getting your "second wind," but it's still not exactly same. Possibly a "swing" can only be attained in a team sport such as rowing where all 8 rowers have to be in absolute synchrony. I am guessing the team doesn't begin the race in the swing, but it comes as the race progresses (obviously the sooner the better). The only think I can think of that would relate it to today would be the feeling that "we got this." But obviously all 8 rowers and the coxswain would have to experience this feeling simultaneously and maintain it for the duration of the race.
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ELLA: I've been watching the film you posted. It is an interview with her on her hundredth birthday. Her scuba diving film is just coming out. (sshe made it in her 90's)
She is utterly charming -- I'm ready to fall in love with her. Then, (minute 12.30 ) she is showing awards she got, one for "Triumph of the Will" and saying how proud she is of them. She says she doesn't see anything political about "Triumph of the Will". It's just a documentary -- nothing political.
What are we to make of this woman?
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HYSTERIA: " Possibly a "swing" can only be attained in a team sport such as rowing where all 8 rowers have to be in absolute synchrony."
I have heard athletes in other sports talk about being "in the zone" when everything just flows. Perhaps it's a similar, perhaps not.
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I found this link helpful in understanding some of the rowing terminology. Remember when the coaches were unhappy when a boy "caught a crab."
Rowing terms and vocabulary (http://www.arlingtoncrew.org/all-about-rowing/)
Crab
A problem encountered by a rower when his or her oar gets `stuck’ in the water, usually right after the catch or just before the release, and is caused by improper squaring or feathering. The momentum of the shell can overcome the rower’s control of the oar. In more extreme cases the rower can actually be ejected from the shell by the oar.
I should know the answer to this, but I don't -- Our boys each rowed with ONE oar or TWO oars. I'm thinking one, but am not sure.
Going back to why we don't hear so much about rowing -- could it be related to TV and TV contracts, etc? By the same token, you don't hear too much about swim teams, track and field, though they are probably easier to televise than rowing.
Ella, I think the question of why the SOTU speech brings JOe R to mind has already been answered. Some down and outers set goals and then went on and met them, no matter how difficult the task.
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"Rowers use the term 'swing' to refer to that magical kind of condition, those moments when the boat seems to fly over the water. It can feel as if there were just one oar, one rower, and you are so unified that there is no friction. You can almost feel the bow of the boat surging up out of the water as if the boat wanted to fly.
"Swing is a state where the distractions of the ego kind of melt away and the separation between crew members can melt away. You're rowing as if with one body; you are rowing as if with one mind. And when you're rowing with one mind there is no resistance.
"The idea that I think is fundamental to any spiritual practice is the transcendence of the individual ego. That's the state of spiritual growth, and there are many paths to that. Meditation is one that has been used for thousands of years. A path of service is something that can do it. And athletics offer a certain kind of path to service."
From
Swing -- from PBS (http://www.pbs.org/bodyandsoul/206/lambert.htm)
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Question No . 6: A woman as a coxswain in a boys' boat? I would think the boys would have all approved of their coxswain and show the respect that one deserves in that position. Their might be a bit of distraction at first, but I would imagine the coach would stomp that out immediatey if the team is doing well. The weight of a girl vs. a man would be of considerable importance to the team.
Personally, I can't imagine a woman wanting to be that coxswain, but possibly I am very old-fashioned in that respect.
What do the rest of you think?
Oh, yes, I think the USA still has that superior feeling about itself, right or wrong. We hear the term "exceptionalism" lately in regards to the country.
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Thank you pedln for defining "crab." I took the term literally and was visualizing a crab stuck to the oar!
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Pedln, you're right. The boys are rowing with one oar apiece. That means that half of them have their left hand on top, closer to the end of the handle, an half of them have their right hand there. I wonder which way is easiest or strongest?
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This section really highlights the importance of the coxswain. He's the brains and some of the spirit of the boat. He carries out the strategy the coach has worked out, but he has to modify it to fit what actually happens in the race. He has to give the rowers some sense of what they're trying to do (they can only see behind the boat). He has to know just how much he can get out of the rowers, and how to get it. Look at Bobby Moch's little tricks, like the code initials that tell the rowers something, and give them a special feeling of being in the know. He's good at needling other crews too, making just the right remark as they pass to make them mad so they mess up. He also has to weigh about 120 pounds, but be strong enough to steer the boat--not an easy task.
Why do they often pick women now? I don't know, but obviously it works well, or they wouldn't do it. A woman would have an extra job getting accepted by male athletes, but she certainly could find ways of inspiring the same spirit, loyalty, and motivation. I'm guessing that her style would be a bit different than a man's.
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It made me smile, America was once innocent, naive, neighborly - no one locked doors. I opened my book this morning to pg . 262-263 and read again about the boys visisting FDR's home at Hyde Park. The boys walked up the lawn to Springwood, knocked on the door and it was opened by Franklin Roosevelt, jr., who told them to call him Frank and announced that he had rowed for Harvard at one time.
The boys visited for an hour and later Johnny White wrote in his diary that they had visited the President's house today - they sure have a fine place.
Imagine that today!
Years ago I went on an Elderhostrip trip to great houses along the Hudson and we visited FDR's home and Daisy Suckley's house next door, among others.
When were you there or have you been? I remember two things vividlly, the graves of FDR and Eleanor are in the front yard and a young boy's curls kept by his mother are in the museum adjoining.
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I am tired of all the information about rowing! I want to know more about th boys., in the boat. Other than Joe, very little has been written about any one else. I am hoping that will chage when tey get to Germany, for the Olympics.
Sheila
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January Book Club Online:
The Boys in the Boat
by Daniel James Brown
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/boys/boys.jpg) |
The #1 New York Times–bestselling story about American Olympic triumph in Nazi Germany.
"Out of the depths of the Depression comes an irresistible story about beating the odds and finding hope in the most desperate of times—the improbable, intimate account of how nine working-class boys from the American West showed the world at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin what true grit really meant...
The emotional heart of the tale lies with Joe Rantz, a teenager without family or prospects, who rows not only to regain his shattered self-regard but also to find a real place for himself in the world. Drawing on the boys’ own journals and vivid memories of a once-in-a-lifetime shared dream, Brown has created an unforgettable portrait of an era, a celebration of a remarkable achievement, and a chronicle of one extraordinary young man’s personal quest." - Amazon.com
|
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PROLOGUE, PART ONE..............................JANUARY l - 7
PART TWO...............................................JANUARY 8 - 14
PART THREE............................................JANUARY 15 - 24
PART FOUR .............................................JANUARY 25 - end
RELEVANT LINKS:
1936 Film of Olympic Rowing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HunZsKugJmY)
Daniel James Brown Website and Information (http://www.danieljamesbrown.com/books/the-boys-in-the-boat/)
Interview With the Author, Daniel James Brown (http://www.hectv.org/video/15118/15118/)
Triumph of the Will - Nazi propaganda film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0kwnLzFMls)
Indoor Rowers Training Techniques (http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos)
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com ) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I also have difficulty imagining that a female coxswain would be accepted by an all male rowing team. It is difficult for a female to break into the "club" of male athletes. While they accept females as "eye candy" (think the sideline reporters during NFL games), when do you see female football announcers? I remember a while back at the University of New Mexico a female placekicker tried to make the UNM football team. She was not accepted at all by the rest of the team. In fact there were rumors that she was raped. So I have a hard time visualizing a female not only as a member of the rowing team but the coordinator of the team effort.
I too had to smile when I read about the boys' visit to FDR's home. With the way things are today, they would have immediately been pounced upon by the Secret Service. They never would have gotten as far as the house. I found it refreshing that they were not only able to visit the house, but they also were able to meet FDR's son. The closest I ever came to meeting a president was in 1963 when JFK visited Los Alamos. He toured the Lab and then spoke to the crowd at the high school football field. I didn't actually talk to him personally of course, but it certainly was a memorable event.
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Other things being equal, I can see the boys working even a little harder for a female coxswain. As Pat has pointed out, the coxswain 'is the brain and some of the spirit of the boat', and a girl can supply both easily enough. But I wonder would they throw her into the water after a win? Surely not into that foul and filthy Hudson. We've had several references to that. After the clear, sparkling waters back home in Washington, the Hudson must have seemed very polluted.
It had us all smiling, Ella. After rowing up the Hudson for a few miles, they parked their shell at the dock, wandered all over the grounds, and finally knocked at the door at Hyde Park. One lucky guy even made himself comfortable in FDR's favorite chair before being told of the honor.
How does one go about weighing the human brain? Bobby Moch's came in at three pounds, which is made to seem exceptional. I wonder if girls would be at a disadvantage in that department?
Sheila, you're right. There is a lot of information about rowing. There's far more to it than I ever imagined. Catching a crab sounds to me like losing control of the oar. What a disaster. There certainly are many skills to master, to row as a winning team. But I can't help feeling that it was their superb condition that won it for them in the end. And that they acquired in that brutal northwest environment. They rowed and they rowed:
'The weather continued to be atrocious....Cold, rain, sleet, hail, and snow they simply ignored. There were days when the wind ripped up the surface of Lake Washington so badly that nobody could row on it without being swamped.' (p234)
It was no contest when that nicely tanned California crew came up for the Pacific Regatta.
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Jonathan, I remember from Biology that there is a wide variation in human brain size, and within normal limits not much correlation between size and intelligence. It seems unlikely that Brown actually knows Moch's brain size. Either that's metaphorical, or maybe it was a team joke.
I wondered about throwing a female coxswain in the water too, and even more about the losers having to give their t-shirts to the winners.
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Well, it must work, as a lot of rowing teams are doing it. I knew coxswains were small but I didn't think as small as 120 pounds. That probably explains the use of women. There must be few men that small. It would have to be a pretty self-confident woman.
On the other hand, there are few sports where a small man is not at a disadvantage and can excel athletically. Jockey is the only other one that comes to mind. I've been noticing that sports stars are getting bigger and bigger. In tennis, there used to be very few top players over 6 feet: now most of them are. The same in baseball.
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PEDLIN: that's an interesting quote you found: rowing as a form of meditation because it allows you to forget yourself, and merge with something bigger. He says that "service" can do the same thing! Does that ring a bell with anyone?
SHEILA: I want to know all the boys too. We've been "introduced" to only three or four, but haven't really "got into the head" of any but Joe. Presumably, the author wasn't able to either.
I'm intrigued by the boy who, after several days in New York, had most of the $14 he started with left. That tells us a lot about these boys: their whole attitude toward money was different because to them, money represented the rare and precious chance to work, and the sweat and toil that went into it. To Joe it meant the chance to marry the girl he loved and have a family and a future.
What does money mean to boys today?
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Moch is described as being 5 feet 7 and 119 pounds. That's about the same weight a jockey tries for. And there are an increasing number of good female jockeys. I noticed other similarities to horse racing too. In a race, the horses who get the lead at the start often use up too much of their reserve, and start to fade as some other horse who has been waiting his chance and conserving his strength pulls ahead and wins, and that happens in the races described here. Moch knows just how close he has to keep to be within range to pull ahead and win at the end.
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JOANK, I would like to know what money means to boys today, too? I would suppose it would matter how it was obtained - through their own hard work or given by their parents.
To many young men when I was young, a job, their first pay went as a down payment on a new car. A new car meant so much; independence from parents, the envy of friends (yes, it did), and self-esteem, a man doing a man's work.
BREAKING NEWS! Tomorrow we are starting for Berlin. See the heading - Chapter Sixteen to the end and JOANK and I want to thank you all again for your participation. It is heartwarming to us that you liked the book we chose to discuss, we have so enjoyed all your comments.
And the coming week with the boys will be icing on a perfect cake. Poor metaphor, but can't think of a better one at the momenet.
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Speaking of money, it was almost a deal-breaker when Ulbrickson was suddenly faced with having to come up with the money to go to Berlin, with a very short deadline. He got the money, by a miracle of public relations and home-state spirit.
Does anyone know how Olympic teams are financed now? For sure, the problem isn't a surprise to them.
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I'm not sure. I think the sports associations for the sport involved fund them.
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This article explains it.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101374365#.
In most countries, the government funds the athletes. But not in the US, at least not directly. the sports associations do, and the government gives money to the sports associations. But there are too many: the government doesn't fund them all, or fund them all the way. The rest is from fundraising.
I don't think the individual athlete or team is ever threatened with being replaced by a wealthier one though. At least I hope so. How infuriating!
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"Crowdfunding" an interesting article, JOANK, thanks for that. It would never have been possible before the Internet. A little bit from here and there adds up.
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http://www.olympic.org/ioc-financing-revenue-sources-distribution?tab=sources
How the organization helps.
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CHAPTER SIXTEEN
“We must be more charming than the Parisians, more easy- going than the Viennese, more vivacious that the Romans, more cosmopolitan than London, more practical than New York.” -- Joseph Goebbels
And we must hide away all signs of anti-Semitism from the foreigners who come to the Olympics.
Certainly, the world knew something of what Hitler and his SS troops were doing. No one in the world talked about it at all? Objected?
Did any of the Nazis have a conscience? Were they too afraid to question the laws?
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Well, bought the book and then two days later the library informed me my ebook was available. Ughh... I'm not as far as the rest of you in my reading, so I see from your posts things happening in the book I haven't gotten to.
hysteria, I came close to a few presidents, but never actually shook their hands. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were in my town, and I have some pretty good pics of Bill Clinton at a speech when Hillary was still running for the Democratic ticket. He sure can wow a crowd. I actually toured the White House a year or so before 911. As you know, no more tours are allowed. It was quite amazing to sit on a window bench, look out at the historical fountain and just realize I was actually in the White House. We were in the blue room, and was told how Jackie Kennedy would decorate the room so grand and beautiful for Christmas. When I walked out the front doors, and stood at the enormous white pillars, while my hubby took my pic, it was a bit surreal for me.
Ella, Certainly, the world knew something of what Hitler and his SS troops were doing. No one in the world talked about it at all? Objected?
That seems to be the way things go, and get out of control. Sometimes I feel there is too much apathy in the world.
Okay, I am off to try to catch up with the rest of you. Has everyone finished the entire book at this point?
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No, I didn't know, BELLE. that no more tours are allowed at the White House. Why? And what a shame.
I went years and years ago, it didn't seem to me to be a mansion, I don't know why. To me America deserved a castle and the White House was a home, lovely home, but some of the southern plantations seem equally grand.
Some of our SeniorLearn folks met several times in years past, and the last time we met was in Washington, D.C. At the time, there was a tour office where you bought tickets and souvenirs, as I remember. I must look it up.
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This seems to be the latest. I'll ask JOANP to come in and tell us; she lives in the city and, probably, keeps abreast of such things.
http://www.nps.gov/whho/planyourvisit/white-house-tours.htm
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Has everyone finished the entire book at this point?
Not me--I'm reading the last section now, and still have comments about the next to last.
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I lived in or near DC most of my life, and only toured the white House once, with relatives from out of town.
"Certainly, the world knew something of what Hitler and his SS troops were doing."
who knew what when has been debated a lot. Many Germans said that they didn't know, but how could they not? I guess they didn't dare know.
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I did finish the book. I must say I learned so much about a sport I never had given a second thought to. It even inspired me to buy (and use) a rowing machine, though my machine would be considered a "starter" machine at best. But I am actually using it! I hope I'm not giving too much away here, but I appreciated the wrap up of what became of everyone. I have a new appreciation for financially disadvantaged students like Joe who managed to get through school without financial aid. The 1936 US rowing team won the Olympics, and the team also won many rowing events for the university. Yet Joe and his teammates still had to find a way to come up with tuition and expenses. In today's world of athletic scholarships and other "perks" it seems incongruous to me that athletically gifted students would have to struggle so hard to pay tuition. They all were fine men, and the hard work and sacrifices they made certainly contributed to their successes as athletes and men. Today's student athletes don't know how well off they really are.
I learned so much from these discussions. Thanks to all who provided the videos which enriched the storyline. My thanks to the moderators and to all who participated. I am looking forward to more discussion groups such as this. Reading a book is of course rewarding. But being able to discuss it with others adds so much more. :)
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That's been my experience as well. What a great sport. And then the strange quote:
“We must be more charming than the Parisians, more easy- going than the Viennese, more vivacious that the Romans, more cosmopolitan than London, more practical than New York.” -- Joseph Goebbels
Doesn't this sound like someone playing coxswain to his nation? Trying so hard to get his countrymen into the race. And he never weighed more than a hundred pounds. Terrible things were happening in Germany and much of the world was turning a blind eye in that direction. Foreign guests coming for the games were wined and dined by top Nazi officials. Do you remember from Those Angry Days, this was the time when Goering pinned that medal on Charles Lindbergh's chest, which embarrassed him forever after. And discredited him back home.
Yes, I've finished the book, and let me tell you that winning race was touch and go.
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PATH; we don't mean to be in a hurry. We have from now until we quit posting. We don 't have to actually quit on a certain day. There was a day some years ago before the Web was so full when we had 2 and 3 discussions going on at once.
So, let us hear from you
HYSTERIA, I really don't know, but I would imagine there are still some girls and boys at a university who are in athletics and must pay their own way. Rowing was, and probably still is, not one of the bigger sports on campus and, therefore, doesn't bring in money from observers such as football. I'm sure I need to be corrected on that statement, anyone?
JONATHAN, until you see a picture of Goebbels you think this man is a big gun on Hitler's team, with emphasis on the word "big." But he wasn't at all physically, what an evil man he was.[/b]
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JONATHAN: that race certainly was touch and go. There's a picture in my book that shows how much they won by, and it's inches.
I wonder how the boys felt later, when they learned what was really going on in the Berlin they saw?
They might have had a clue at how much things were being manipulated when they saw their lane assignment. I've never seen anything like that! In every sport, there arise natural situations that give an advantage or disadvantage to one participant. If they can't somehow be made even, it is always handled in the same way: the participants are ranked, or "seeded" according to their past performances, and those with the best record given the advantage. Thus participants must "earn" their advantage.
For example, in swimming, those in the center lanes have an advantage. So the fastest qualifiers get those lanes, the slowest the outside lanes. Of course, swimmers know this and work hard for fast qualifying times.
I've never seen this kind of rule violated in any sport. And yet here are the Americans, with the fastest qualifying time, given the worst lane!!!! Of course, everyone was furious. I'm furious!
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Oh my heavens, I was so upset with so many parts of this section. It was clear things were happening, not only to keep the Washington team from actually going to Berlin, but once they got there, they did everything possible, to give them the disadvantage of winning the Gold medal.
Once the boys qualified in Princeton, I was furious to read: pg. 571
By eight o'clock the rumors were confirmed. After his windy speech on the float in front of the Princeton shell house, Henry Penn Burke had taken Al Ulbrickson, George Pocock, and Ray Eckman, the athletic director at Washington, into a room and given them, in effect, an ultimatum. If Washington want to go to Berlin, the boys were to have to pay their own way. "You'll have to pay your own freight, or else," Burke said. "We just haven't the dough." Burke, who was also, coincidentally, the chairman of and a major fundraiser for the Pennsylvania Athletic Club in Philadelphia, went on to say that he understood that Penn had plenty of money and as the second-place finisher they would naturally be glad to take Washington's place to Berlin
Thank goodness, T.F. Davies, chairman of the Seattle Chamber of Commerce, came through for them, sending them a certified check for $5,000.
JoanK., I am with you. When I read that lane rule change, I was so upset. How dare them try to give the hosting team the advantage, when always the fastest qualifiers earned the favored lanes and the slower finishers had to make do with the least favored lanes. This was so upsetting: pg. 667
The German Olympic Committee and Federation Internationale des Societes d'Aviron--headed, respectively, by Heinrich pauli, chairman of the rowing committee for the Reich Association for Physical Training, and Rico Fioroni, an Italian Swiss_had implemented new rules for lane selection, rules never used before in Olympic competition.
Changing the lane rules was not enough to give the U.S.A. a disadvantage, then they try this tactic: pg. 681
"Behind them, and out of sight, the official starter suddenly emerged from his shelter, holding a flag aloft. The flag snapped widely over his head for a moment. Almost immediately, he turned slightly in the direction of landes one and two, shouted into the wind in one continuous, unbroken utterance, "Etes-vous prets? Partez!" and dropped the flag. Bobby Moch never heard him. Never saw the flag. Neither, apparently, did Noel Duckworth. Four boats surged, forward. The British boat and the Husky Clipper, for a horrific moment, sat motionless at the line, dead in the water.
As if Ulbrickson did not have enough on his plate, he has to deal with Don Hume being horribly ill, and having to make the decision as to whether to replace him. They sure had enough obstacles to overcome to win this medal. But it was such a wonderful triumph in the end!
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This last section had so much in it, and it was quite lengthy to say the least. I would like to have sectioned it off into two parts for our discussion.
The politics in this story were of course necessary to touch on, but I felt it did distract me at times. I felt the author was meshing two stories into one, and I got the feeling Joe Rantz was not the one telling, or even mentioning the political side, more so it was the author adding it in. The Louis Zamperini story, Unbroken, was more directly affected with the war itself, and how badly Zamperini was treated. Joe Rantz, nor the other Olympic members/teams, weren't actually affected to what was happening at this time.
In my own personal opinion, I felt the author could have mentioned less about what was happening politically, behind the scenes, of the the Olympics.
Not to rush the ending of the discussion, I want to say, I did like the follow up of each of the guys in the end. More on that later.....
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Ella, you asked about the suspension of the White House tours. Awful memory - we did so much in Washington on two separate SeniorNet visits to the National Book Festival, but the White House was not on the list of places visited. So sad we lost all that information when SeniorNet went down.
So yes, the suspended tours have been reinstated - and Pennsylvania Ave. is now open in front of the White House. Did you hear about yesterday's drone, (or whatever it was) that was landed over the fence around the WH yesterday? The first family is in India...but the implications of the ability to launch ANYTHING so close to the WH is frightening.
Here's some information from the web site: - The White House Visitor Center will reopen on Saturday, Sept. 13, 2014 at 7:30 a.m. The visitor center underwent a $12.6 million transormation and now provides a modern and engaging experience for visitors, including interactive touchscreen tours as well as more than 90 White House artifacts--many of which have never been on display before.
- See more at: http://washington.org/DC-faqs-for-visitors/how-can-i-tour-white-house#sthash.hql5UV0Y.dpuf
Tours of the White House are available by advance arrangement through your member of Congress. Tours are arranged for groups of 10 or more; smaller groups and families should request to join a tour. You should submit a request through your congressional office up to six months in advance and no fewer than 21 days in advance. Visitors who are not U.S. citizens should contact their embassy in DC.
The tours are self-guided and run from 7:30 a.m. until 11 a.m. Tuesdays through Thursdays, 7:30 a.m. unitl noon on Fridays, and 7:30 a.m. until 1 p.m. on Saturdays (excluding federal holidays unless otherwise noted). You will need a government-issued ID to enter the White House on the day of your tour. International visitors must present their passports.
For more information, call the White House Visitors Center at (202) 456-7041 or visit whitehouse.gov. You can locate your representative's office by visiting house.gov."
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ps Just picked up my Library copy of The Boys. I look forward to reading along with your comments from the Archived discussion. So many questions, but afraid to find out before reading. Already my first question has been answered - why now? Why did Daniel Brown choose to write about this topic now? But the opening chapters have cleared that up...his contact with the dying Joe Rantz who was visiting his sister near the author's property. Wasn't that fortuitous?
Enjoy the rest of the story- I'll meet you in the Archives... :D
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Ella, Thank you for the link.
JoanP., We were posting at the same time. Thank you for your info, on the White House tours.
After the 911 attacks, I know they stopped all tours for security purposes, but not sure for how long. Then in 2011 due to the sequester, stating lack of funds for security service, they again suspended tours. I did see in your link, they resumed limited tours, and also there are new regulations and restrictions, such as: Public tours must be submitted through your Member of Congress, up to six months in advance, or at least 21 days before, must have I.D.s, and can not bring in any items. When we went before 911, we could bring our purses, cameras, and were not checked for any I.D, and no advance notice or going through any Member of Congress.
The concierge of our hotel gave us a name and phone number of a person, who picked us up at our hotel, guaranteed we would get inside the White House, and chauffeured us to all the major sightseeing spots, with special ways to enter to avoid crowds. I guess we were pretty lucky back then, and not to play on words, but the name of our guide was Lucky! His father had been the chauffeur, to senators and congressmen for years, he retired and began the tour guide service. He must have made a ton of money, because once his group assembled to begin the tour of the White House, there must have been over 50 of us, who paid him $30.00 each. Not bad for a day's work, of driving people around Washington D.C., in a Town car. It was worth every penny of it for me and my husband, who had never visited D.C.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/10/18/white-house-public-tours
http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/tours-and-events
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Thanks, JOANP and BELLE for the information about White House Tours. Sorry, JOANP, you weren't with us at the beginning, but you will enjoy the book and you can pass it along to the boys in your family.
My daughter is waiting for a library copy (she will not read mine as I make notes and underline) but even though our Metro Library has 90 copies 72 requests still to be filled.
Is it the story or Brown's writing? Both, perhaps?
The SS MANHATTAN, what a lovely ship. Joe explored it all and obviously remembered the luxury aboard as he related it all to our author. Have any of you crossed the ocean in a ship? Americans seem to always be in a hurry, crossing in airplanes, but I do wonder if such luxury still exists in ocean-crossing vessels?
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I have crossed the Atlantic in a ship, there and back, but it wasn't exactly luxury. In 1957-8, Bob had a postdoctorate fellowship in Zürich, and we went over on the America, and came back on the Queen Mary. We didn't have much money, so were in the smallest, cheapest cabin we could get. A friend of JoanK's was traveling first class on the America at the same time, so we got to see it a little, but they didn't like people moving between classes.
I'm not really a cruise type, and found it rather dull, except for the salt water swimming pool. Before you got in it looked like the water was sloshing back and forth remarkably, but of course it was the boat tipping, and the water staying level.
Coming back, the weather was very rough, and everyone was seasick. I'm fairly resistant, so was OK after half a day, but Bob was sick over half the time.
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The biggest ship I have ever been on was a three deck casino cruiseliner, that left from Miami, Fla., and took us out into International waters. It was very beautiful with a formal dining room, live band, dancing, etc. One floor was all slot machines. I got very claustrophobic half way through, and just wanted back on solid ground. We were gone for six hours and that was more than enough for me. When we docked, I vowed no more cruises for me, mini or otherwise. I think the fact it was midnight and I felt so disoriented to my surroundings, is what really upset me. The motion did not bother me at all.
Ella, my library has many copies as well and they are all out. I think the movie "Unbroken" and the "Imitation Game," have spiked the interest for this time frame.
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TRACES OF EVIL - interesting photos
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/olympic.htm
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ELLA: "Is it the story or Brown's writing? Both, perhaps?".
Yes, his writing is very good, isn't it? Even knowing the result, I was on the edge of my seat.
BELLAMARIE:" I would like to have sectioned it off into two parts for our discussion." We did. we just went through the first part rather quickly, since people were eager to move on. But discussion of the first part (qualifying for the Olympics) is still in welcome.
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'For example, in swimming, those in the center lanes have an advantage.'
How can that be, JoanK? The water course at the Olympics certainly wasn't a level playing field, as they say, and left the Husky Clipper with a serious handicap. More exposure to winds, even slight eddies or currents in the water, not to mention problems in hearing the starter's signal, certainly made for a bad start. And then the crew that tried splashing their way to victory...certainly reflects a lack of training and coaching, poor guys.
How interesting about the swimming pool water staying level in rough seas, on the ocean liner. Couldn't Bob have camped out there on an air mattress and evaded the discomfort of the ship's motion? My sister was a frequent flyer, tourist class, but had the good luck, from time to time, of being bumped up to first class. Just loved it. Got hooked on it.
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JONATHAN: any time you're dealing with nature, you can't count on things being even. Although in the rower's case, it seems that the difference was so extreme, that they should have designed a different course.
In a swimming pool, the center lanes are best for two reasons: the water kicked up by the swimmers sloshes off the sides of the pool and creates turbulence in the outside lanes: the water is smoothest in the center, thus "fastest". And in the center lanes, you have the best view of where your competitors are, so you can plan strategy better. In races that are often decided by hundreds of a second, these differences are often enough to determine the result. But there's no way around them.
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I've just arrived in Berlin, so am a little behind most of you. (Cheated, read the Epilogue to see what paths the team members chose.)
Insert Quote
ELLA: "Is it the story or Brown's writing? Both, perhaps?".
I think mainly Brown's writing. His attention to details, even the mundane and trifling add to the story. Before we started I wasn't really looking forward to reading it. I'd read The Captain's Table and The Lifeboat within the past few years. They were fine, okay, but I thought two boat stories was enough. What a delightful surprise. And had it not been for the book I never would have tried the indoor rowing machine. ( I wonder which of Brown's books JUdy had been reading to Joe.)
Last night I was reading in bed, quite late, and came upon the pages about the athletes activities during the crossing. When Louis Zamperini's name appeared I wanted to be really sure that it was the same Zamperini I'd heard a little about. So, out of bed at midnight, turn the computer back on, go to Google search . . . . One and the same. Graduated from Torrance High School, unbeaten, setting interscholastic records.
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PEDLIN, I agree with you. Brown has done a good job turning Joe's story into a very entertaining, exciting book. If you have looked at his NOTES, he has alsos done a masterful job of reseaarch. At times I have been skeptical but I look up the chapater in his NOTES and he states where he found the incidents, but the form, the style , the structure , the history all combined to make this a very popular book.
American stars in the 1936 Olympics:
Ralph Metcalfe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Metcalfe
Jesse Owens: - http://www.jesseowens.com/
Glenn Cunningham - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Cunningham_(athlete)
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http://galleryhip.com/elbe-river-germany.html - The boys will not forget their journey up the river; it was one of the highlights of the trip as the people of Berlin lined the river and docks along the way to welcome them. They had no inkling of Hitler’s rulings? If you had practiced for years to make the Olympics, would you have cancelled upon hearing of human rights problems in that country? Should the coach have cancelled?
An innovation in 1936 was the Olympic torch relay, lit by the rays of the sun at Olympia in Greece and carried by 3,000 relay runners to the main stadium in the German capital. It is a tradition that has continued at every subsequent Olympic Games.
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The United States competed at the 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin, Germany. The Americans were second in the medals table to Germany. 359 competitors, 313 men and 46 women, took part in 127 events in 21 sports.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_at_the_1936_Summer_Olympics
No, if I were the coaches and heard of the human rights problems, I would not have cancelled. They have trained for years, the facts were not known for certain, I think Hitler did a pretty good job of keeping his actions and intents underwraps at that particular time.
pg. 594 - 595
As Joe drifted into sleep aboard the Manhattan, the first light of dawn crept over Berlin, revealing small groups of men, women, and children being marched through the streets at gunpoint. The arrests had begun hours earlier, under the veil of night, when police and SA storm troopers broke into the shanties and wagons that were home to Roma and Sinti families-Gypies-and rousted then from their beds. Now they were on their way to a sewage-disposal site in the Berlin suburb of Marzahn, where they would be kept in a detention camp, well away from the eyes of foreigners arriving in Berlin for the Olympics. In time they would be sent to death camps and murdered.
Their removal was just one more step in a process that had been unfolding for months as the Nazies transformed Berlin into something resembling a vast movie set-a place where illusion could be perfected, where the unreal could be made to seem real and the real could be hidden away. Already the signs prohibiting Jews from entering public facilities had been taken down and stored for later use. The fiercely anti-Semitic Der Sturmer newspaper-with its grotesque caricatures of Jews and its slogan, "The Jews Are Our Misfortune"__had been temporarily removed from news-stands. In Der Angriff, his principal propaganda publication, Joseph Goebbels had handed Berliners the script for their part in the performance, detailing how they should conduct themselves toward Jews and how they should welcome the foreigners when they arrived: "We must be more charming than the Parisians, more easygoing than the Viennese, more vivacious than the Romans, more cosmopolitan than London, more practical than New york."
pg. 598 - 599
Foreign books, banned books, books that had escaped the bonfires of 1933, suddenly reappeared in bookshop windows. With the set fully decorated, Leni Riefenstahl was busily at work mobilizing dozens of cameramen and sound technicians, putting scores of camera in place.
Everywhere she set up cameras, Riefenstahl made sure she had the most flattering angles, generally cast upward, for filming the ultimate stars of the show, Adolf Hitler and his entourage. Then, with the cameras mostly in place, she and all of Berlin waited for the rest of the cast to arrive.
pg. 627
as Albion Ross had written in the New York Times a few days before, no Olympics before had ever been orchestrated "by a political regime that owes its triumph to a new realization of the possibilities of propaganda, publicity, and pageantry. Staging the Olympics in the past has been in the hands of amateurs. Here the work has been done by professionals, and by the most talented, resourceful, and successful professionals in history."
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One of the most disturbing parts I read in the book was probably this:
pg. 663
Like most of the Americans in Berlin that summer, they had concluded that the new Germany was a pretty nice place. It was clean, the people were friendly almost to a fault, everything worked neatly and efficiently, and the girls were pretty. Kopenick was charmingly quaint; Grunau green leafy, and pastoral. Both towns were about as pleasant and peaceful as anything back home in Washington.
But there was a Germany the boys could not see, a Germany that was hidden from them, either by design or by time. It wasn't just that the signs__"Fur Juden verboten," "Juden sind hier unerwunscht"__had been removed, or that the Gypsies had been round up and taken away, or that the vicious Sturmer newspaper had been withdrawn from the racks in the tobacco shops in Kopenick. There were larger, darker, more enveloping secrets all around them.
They knew nothing of the tendrils of blood that had billowed in the waters of the river Spree and the Langer See in June of 1933, when SA storm troopers rounded up hundreds of Kopenick's Jews, Social Democrats, and Catholics and tortured ninety-one of them to death__beating some until their kidneys ruptured or their skin split open, and then pouring hot tar into the wounds before dumping the mutilated bodies into the town's tranquil waterways. They could not see the sprawling Sachsenhausen concentration camp under construction that summer just north of Berlin, where before long more than two hundred thousand Jews, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Gypsies, and eventually Soviet prisoners of war, Polish civilians, and Czech university students would be held, and where tens of thousands of them would die. And there was much more over the horizon of time.
I have to wonder how the Olympians, who participated in the 1936 Olympics, had to feel, after coming home and learning of all this taking place behind the scenes. Realizing the atrocities that took place before, and after their trip to Berlin.
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" Staging the Olympics in the past has been in the hands of amateurs. Here the work has been done by professionals."
I'm sure all Olympic venues get out their spit and polish, just as we do when we have company. But this was more than that. Interesting that they hid all signs of racial hatred and book-banning. They knew these would lead to disapproval, but at some level, did they also know they were wrong?
There is still controversy over Carter's 1980 decision not to go to the Olympics in Russia. Do you think he was right?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
January Book Club Online:
The Boys in the Boat
by Daniel James Brown
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/boys/boys.jpg) |
The #1 New York Times–bestselling story about American Olympic triumph in Nazi Germany.
"Out of the depths of the Depression comes an irresistible story about beating the odds and finding hope in the most desperate of times—the improbable, intimate account of how nine working-class boys from the American West showed the world at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin what true grit really meant...
The emotional heart of the tale lies with Joe Rantz, a teenager without family or prospects, who rows not only to regain his shattered self-regard but also to find a real place for himself in the world. Drawing on the boys’ own journals and vivid memories of a once-in-a-lifetime shared dream, Brown has created an unforgettable portrait of an era, a celebration of a remarkable achievement, and a chronicle of one extraordinary young man’s personal quest." - Amazon.com
|
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:
PROLOGUE, PART ONE..............................JANUARY l - 7
PART TWO...............................................JANUARY 8 - 14
PART THREE............................................JANUARY 15 - 24
PART FOUR .............................................JANUARY 25 - end
RELEVANT LINKS:
1936 Film of Olympic Rowing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HunZsKugJmY)
Daniel James Brown Website and Information (http://www.danieljamesbrown.com/books/the-boys-in-the-boat/)
Interview With the Author, Daniel James Brown (http://www.hectv.org/video/15118/15118/)
Triumph of the Will - Nazi propaganda film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0kwnLzFMls)
Indoor Rowers Training Techniques (http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos)
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com ) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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JoanK.,
They knew these would lead to disapproval, but at some level, did they also know they were wrong?
I have to say a definite NO! If they saw nothing wrong with killing Jews, Catholics, homosexuals, etc., they did not see anything wrong with racial hatred, and book banning. They only wanted to keep it as secret as possible, until Hitler made his intentions openly. I guess we should clarify who
"they" were. Hitler, and his true supporters..
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As Phyllis Diller used to say, when company comes, you put the dirty dishes in the oven and you bury the diapers in the back yard.
You hide what you are ashamed of. They knew what was wrong.
One person in America knew the truth: In a letter to the New York Times Richard Wingate wrote: “Mr. Brundage has reached his destination, the Utopia of sportsmanship and good-will, where Nazi beer and Jewish blood flow freely'
Was anyone in America reading the paper? Commenting? About this time I think Lindbergh was applauding the Germans - I will look that up.
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As the boys entered the stadium they sang:
]Hail, hail, the gang's all here
What the deuce do we care...................."
Was there a reason they chose this song?
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"" On Lindbergh’s last day in Germany, Lindbergh and his wife attended the opening ceremonies of the 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin as special guests of Hermann Göring and were seated in a special spectator box with Göring and his wife. Truman Smith later claimed that Lindbergh’s special relationship with Göring was a milestone for the American military attaché in Berlin because it gave the Americans access to German Air Ministry they never had before.
The facilities and technology of the German Luftwaffe impressed Lindbergh. He also noted the work ethic of the German people, and exclaimed that there was “a spirit in Germany which I have not seen in any other country. There is certainly great ability, and I am inclined to think more intelligent leadership than is generally recognized. A person would have to be blind not to recognize that they have already built up tremendous strength”. Lindbergh also was impressed by the good discipline, high morals, and restrained press that existed in Germany—things that he believed were lacking in the United States" -
http://www.traces.org/charleslindbergh.html
"restrained press" - the worst of it?
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Ella, I remember reading this in one of our books we read with Lindbergh, and if my memory serves me correctly, did this not end up causing him much shame with the military later? I'll have to go through our archives to see which book it was.
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BELLAMARIE: I remember hearing that, too, although I don't remember where. He is remembered for three things: his historic flight, his baby's kidnapping and death, and being a Nazi sympathizer. Whether the last is fair, or whether he was taken in at the beginning, like so many others, I don't know.
But it would be surprising if our boys, out of the country for the first time and into the middle of a grand celebration, would be very sophisticated at picking up politics. Those of you who have been abroad, do you remember your reactions the first time being in a strange country?
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I remember thinking how small the countries were, more like our states, and how amazing the United States even existed with its sheer size, population and different cultures. Always took it for granted but shouldn't. Sorry I read the book so quickly as I've missed out on lots of good discussion. Next time I'll know better.
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JUST THREE MORE DAYS!
HAS EVERYONE FINISHED THE BOOK? ARE YOU STILL HERE READING THE DISCUSSION?
SHALL WE CONTINUE? WE ARE ALMOST to THE END.
LET US KNOW
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Bobby Moch, their coxswain:
http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?displaypage=output.cfm&file_id=10906
Just put his name in Google and you get a dozen articles and images.
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'We were all like brothers...and I miss them.' Bobby Moch, in 2002, at 88. Isn't that touching. That comes at the end of the article on him, in your link, Ella, and it certainly is touching. And so was the story on Charles Lindbergh in your link the other day. What memories he was left with. He, too, felt so strongly about brotherhood, and worked so hard to keep his country out of war. And was villainized for his efforts. No doubt Lindbergh looked for a restrained press. It was to avoid the media attention that he escaped to Europe in the thirties.
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I wonder if Moch ever accepted his Jewish heritage. Did he go to meet his relatives in Switzerland, I wonder. And did they survive the war? So many stories.
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I wondered about Moch too. I was hoping he would visit his relatives after the Olympics, because he would have gotten an earful about the real situation in Germany, but there's no mention of it.
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Finished today. Still here. Brown is an excellent writer. He manages to maintain suspense, even when the ending is known, and he has you wanting to know more. And he puts all kinds of thoughts and questions in your head. Now I"m wondering which of his other two books Judy was reading to Joe.
And I"m wondering too, did any sportwriter pick up on the injustice of the lane assignments. That was so bad. I wonder what Royal Brougham put in his story, which ironicly never got published.
With the exception of Chuck Day, these men lived pretty long lives, and did at least some rowing as they aged. A good example of the benefits of lifetime exercise? Joe was hiking in the woods in his 90s.
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As our author says at the end of the book: "And so they passed away, loved and remembered for all that they were - not just Olylmpic oarsmen but good men, one and all."
And so our discussion is passing away, being archived soon.
How would you rate the book on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest)? For content, style, characters, whatever?
As one of the Discussion Leaders, I want to THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION, YOUR INTEREST, YOUR COMMENTS. It was wonderful - great fun to come in every day and read what you had to say. I love disclussing books and If you have suggestions for another nonfiction book, please post it in the Nonfiction folder
We will meet again in another discussion and in the meantime, you can continue posting here for a day or two. .
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I would rate the book on a scale of 1 - 10 probaby a 6. I can say I would never have picked this book to read on my own. I am glad I did decide to read and discuss it with all of you. It was a troubling story for me, because of the pain and abandonment Joe had to experience throughout his boyhood. I am so glad he had Joyce, who did not accept the way his father and stepmother treated him, so she made sure she did all she could to help him never feel alone. I was glad Joe's father finally was involved in his life, it's a bit sad to know it only happened because Thula died.
DJB did an excellent job writing Joe's story. I like how he added parts to give us the history of what was happening politically, even if it seemed the U.S. and the college teams were not affected directly from it. Some of it was a distraction for me, but I still am glad he covered it.
Brown was able to keep me interested in the race in Berlin, even knowing the team won gold. I was amazed at all the obstacles they had to overcome. I felt like I was right there as a spectator, watching the race, screaming with Moch as he started banging the wooden knockers on the tiller lines, hoping the boys could feel the vibrations, since they could not hear him, and Don Hume seemed lost in his disoriented state of health.
I felt as excited reading their victory, as much as watching the Olympics on tv. I always get overwhelmed and my eyes fill with tears of pride and joy, when any of our Americans win gold, so this really brought the same emotions to me when I read:
"The boys climbed out of the shell and stood at the attention while a German band played "The Star-Spangled Banner."
I am glad Brown gave us a follow up of the boys, as they separated in life, but continued to get together at least once a year.
Thank you to our moderators Ella and JoanK., as always the two of you kept us on our toes, posed some really great thought provoking questions, and supplied us with great links and pictures.
Ciao for now~
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I'll definitely read more by this author. And as always, discussing the book with you all has made it come alive for me. You are the best!
Now to get ready for "The Lady of Shalott."
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Whoops. You caught me by surprise; I thought we had more time. If I get a chance , I'll say a few more bits.
This was a great discussion. Thank you, Ella, for picking a book I thoroughly enjoyed, and would never have read on my own. And thank you, Ella and JoanK, for making it such a good discussion, with so many ideas, and links to extra material.
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We'll just keep rowing along. I'm up to 10 minutes now and my mantra for each minute is the name of one of the boys, plus Al Ulbrickson. Need to go back and check the order -- am good from Bobby thru Stub McMillan.
I'll give it all a 10. What else, when I liked it so much.. Both book and discussion have been delightful. Many many thanks Ella and JOanK, and thanks too, to all of you who brought us so much to think about.
Way enough!
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PEDLIN: THAT'S GREAT!
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Hi! I give this special story 8. You feel you are there. Thank you, Ella and JoanK. How did you find it?
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I loved the book, BLUEBIRD. It kept my interest all the way through, young Joe, old Joe, the other boys, the coaches, the 1936 Olympics; it was all great reading I thought. And the author did a good job of writing and the discussion, WELL-----------------
I give it all a 10!
Thanks to all of you for your comments.
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Can't leave it here. I'm horrified -- NYT article today about those who want to make college football into a curriculum because the players just don't have time to take classes. Football major, basketball minor
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/education/edlife/football-major-basketball-minor.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/education/edlife/football-major-basketball-minor.html)
When I think of how hard "our" boys worked, even stayed extra years to meet course requirements I just cringe at the thought of what some college athletics have become.
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Pedln, you're a mind reader; you just gave me a perfect lead-in to the comment I sat down to write.
"Our" boys were the exact opposite of the current "student" athlete. They didn't get a single concession for their athletic skill. One of them still couldn't find the money to finish, even after he was famous. And they all went on to hold down serious and demanding jobs--most of them in engineering or science, and the ones who couldn't finish school had responsible, demanding careers running mining or construction businesses.
My husband had his own suggestion for the student athlete problem. The colleges should buy racehorses for the students to root for. The jockeys could wear the school colors, and the horses wouldn't have to pass exams.
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Ella, I bet you didn't realize when you chose the book that you were going to contribute to the fitness of SeniorLearners.
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And even more than physical fitness. Congratulations to all of you who have taken to rowing for the exercise, for the challenge and the fun. I found my dreams got much more exciting. Three times, during the discussion, I found myelf in the shell with the boys, enjoying the 'swing'. I can still hear the voice behind me: You gotta move the boat, not the water. I can't get over the effort that went into the gold medal. Four thousand some miles of rowing. Twenty-seven miles of competitive racing, over three years. Strange, how the Olympic race was the least classic. It seemed like such a grind. The author could not have enjoyed describing that one, unlike the other wins.
Only one thing disturbed my dreams. The thought of meeting Goebbels. That nasty little guy.
Thanks to all of you for the great ride.