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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
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Three Cups of Tea
by
Greg Mortenson & David Oliver Relin
"The first time that you share tea with a Balti, you are a stranger" a villager tells our author. "The second time, you are an honored guest. The third time you become family." ~ Three Cups of Tea
______________ Three Cups of Tea is an inspirational story of one man's efforts to address poverty, educate girls, and overcome cultural divides. This book won the 2007 Kiriyama Prize for nonfiction revealing the enormous obstacles inherent in becoming such "family." ~ Bookmarks Magazine
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Three Cups of Tea -- Homepage. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/)
Ignorance -- the Real Enemy. (http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=22471)
Synopsis and Biography. (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Three-Cups-of-Tea/Greg-Mortenson/e/9780143038252/?itm=1)
Readers' Guide by the Author. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/wp-includes/documents/3CTReadingGuide.pdf)
K2 Mountain. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2)
| -- | Discussion Schedule - May 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 6
- May 8 - 14 Chapters 7 - 12
- May 15 - 21 Chapters 13 - 18
- May 22 - 31 Chapters 19 - End
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| . | 1. What made Mortenson particularly ripe for such a transformation? Has anything similar happened in your own life?
2. Is Mortenson someone that you would like to know, work with or have as a neighbor or friend?
3. At the heart of the book is a powerful but simple poliical message: we each as individuals have the power to change the world, one cup of tea at a time, etc. | . |
Discussion Leaders: Andy(ALF43) (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
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Please- come in and join this fabulous discussion about this astonishing man who found the power to "make a difference"- One cup of tea at a time.
We welcome your comments, your thoughts and your insights into this remote area of the world. We will be fortunate to have folks here who have shared information with us through informative links, as well as personal experiences. If you have book in hand, a map has been provied for our reference which I found extremely helpful.
Do sit down, prop up your feet as we transition with Greg Mortenson from the second highest mountain in the world, the dreaded K2, to a decade long mission to build schools throughout the region that gave birth to the Taliban and sanctuary to Al Queda.
At SeniorLearn.org our mission is to read, share, learn and respect all poster's opinions.
Come on down!!!
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I’m really excited about this discussion. This is a really inspiring book, and reading it with such a great group of friends gives us a chance we don’t often have to experience and learn together about a part of the world that I, for one, will never get a chance to visit from people who know it well. So put on your warmest clothes, drink a cup of butter tea, and we’re off to a village in the Himalaya too small to be on the map.
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Lace up your boots, grab your pack, and join us in Korphe and the Baltistan as we learn more about Greg Mortenson and the people he has worked so diligently with in Central Asia. This book takes place in an area that is close to the forefront of the world’s headlines, from where much disturbing news comes every day. Now we can meet the ‘real people’ who live there, learn about their lives and hopes and dreams.
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When one is lost, disoriented, and exhausted the sight of another human is so significant and the relief it offers is so enervating that one will remember the event a lifetime. I can understand Mortenson's desire to compensate in some meaningful way.
Once, while swimming off the coast of Ulithi Atol I became separated from other swimmers in waves so high I could not tell which direction was seaward and which shoreward. Some time passed before I heard shouting from the beach but after swimming in what I thought was the direction of the sound I soon realized I was moving farther out to sea. The sounds disappeared and I realized I was lost and disoriented as well as tired. The salt spray made it difficult to breathe. Choppy water splashed against my nose and mouth as I tried to tread high in the water but my leg muscles were cramping. I remember, eventually, rising up to the crest of what I thought was a wave and sure enough it was and ,suddenly, the beach came into view. People were walking about and no one was paying the slightest attention to me. I swam to shore experiencing great relief and a very sunburned nose. It was sometime before I ventured back into the ocean for a swim.
The event was common place, I suppose, but inability to find my way to safety raised my anxieties to an interesting level and I would have been very grateful for the sight of another human being. I am not at all sure I would have been grateful enough to spend ten years building schools for islanders but then not everyone can be a Mortenson.
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That is a frightening account Justin and one that I can relate to as well. When you become discombobulated and off course, it has a tendency to make you desperate. In many instances one feels that fate has spared them and from that-- promises abound, steering a person onto a different life's journey. This is what happened with Greg M., he was grateful to the people that saved him and it altered his entire perspective on life.
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Hooray, hooray the 1st of May .
OUr new discussion begins TODAY!
Good Morning and welcome to our official book discussion of Three Cups of Tea.Please note in the heading, our first week we will be discussing Chapters 1 through 6. Please limit your observations and comment to these first chapters. Together, we will take it slowly as we respectfully enjoy this journey uncovering these layers of multiculturism.
Each week I will put three questions in the heading, provided by a Reader's Guide. They do not limit us in any way. Please feel free to incorporate any questions of your own.
I would like to initially mention David Oliver Relin, the collaborator/co author, who readily admits that even though, as a reporter, he wrote this story, it was Greg Morenson who lived it. This must have been quite a two year undertaking for a reporter to observe and journal the unfolding of the dreams and hopes of not only Mortenson but the entire remote village of Korphe.
I'm sure this guy will never be the same. :D
I would like to know if there is anyone here who has been to this removed area of Pakistan?
Is there anyone here who has ever been to Pakistan?
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Alas, I still have not received my requested interlibrary loan. Usually I get a book pretty quickly that way, but perhaps this particular book is too popular just now. I'll be in the library this morning and make inquiries. Here's hoping.
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Babi- I surely hope that it is available to you. Do stop by and give us your insight, sans book. the discussion should be fairly easy to follow.
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Babi, do stay with us, even though your book has not yet arrived. We always like to hear what you have to say.
Justin, what a scary experience, especially knowing the dangers of going the wrong direction in open water. And not even a boat or a rope to hang on to.
Andy, I’ve never been in Asia, let alone Pakistan, and I must confess, really don’t know much about the area. I’ve been looking a lot at maps, my own software map and Google Earth. What really surprised me was how close this particular area is to China. K2 appears to be really close to the border, practically on the border.
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k2 Mountain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2)
Unlike GM, a 35 year old former medic and nursing student, I would be more than stunned by my failure to climb the "The Savage Peak", frankly -I would be terrified.
Imagine after 78 days of struggling to reach the summit the last 600 meters of it became unatttainable to this guy!
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drats, I can't get this link to work
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Have browsed through Google Earth and was amazed at how many people lived along those rivers (deep gorges) and farmed.
Mortenson was lucky to get out alive and am sure felt a responsibility to those people who saved him. He did promise a school and went he got back to civilization began to forget his promise. Fortunately he turned that around and committed himself to the project.
Last day of Latin :'( :'(
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Hi all - i'll be lurking, i've got too many things going on at the moment to read the book, plus, i'll be away for 2 wks in the middle of May, but i find the topic inspiring, so i'm anxious to see your comments and links........................jean
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Imagine after 78 days of struggling to reach the summit the last 600 meters of it became unattainable to this guy!
It must have been even more disappointing because it wasn't his fault--he had to rescue someone else who had been too rash, and that did him in.
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Jean, the book reads quickly if you decide to take it along.
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I bought "Three Cups of Tea" and had planned to participate. However my F2F book club is reading "Dreams of my Father" by Obama. I hadn't realized what a serious book it is and just how long it would take me to read it. One can't go breezing through that book. However as soon as I finish I will join you in this discussion. It will probably be a week from now when my Book Club meets.
I too had an experience like Justins when I was nine years old. I was with a friend on a desertd beach (Our parents thought we were somewhere else) and we kept getting tossed further and further out to sea when we spotted some high rocks fairly close and we let the waves push us into that direction. It took us a long time to recover and the mile walk on sharp rocks , back to the shore was excruciating. I certainly never underestimated the power of the Ocean after that and have been wary of going too far out when swinning ever since. How easily we could have drowned!
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Pat's right Jean, the book is an easy read and moves right along. Lurk, comment and enjoy the journey.
Jude- we would love to have you join us. It's a much different read than "Dreams of My Father" but perhaps you'll get a break and can peek in here with us. It is just a different dream than President Obama attained.
Pat noted that the failure wasn't all his fault. While restocking the high camps for the lead climbers with supplies, a distress signal was spotted & even though they called for volunteers to assist, noone came forward. This left only the two exhausted men to come to their teammates aid evacuating a fellow climber who was suffering from pulmonary edema, also known as "wet lungs." This rescue cost the men their goal.
48 men had already lost their lives to the Savage Mountain and thank God for Mortenson's skills, his teammates survived.
"It was a world of glaciers and crags, an incredile view which could satisfy an artist just as well as a mountaineer."
Are those glaciers of a mountain the same as those of the sea, with gases trapped within from eons ago?
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The Northern Map shows three glaciers in the Karakoram Range. I had no idea there were glaciers remaining this far away from the poles. An image of barrenness and dry lands with desert is, I thought, the more common conception of this Asian area. I must look at Google Earth to clear up any geographic misconceptions I continue to harbor.
I think it was on the glacier that Mortenson lost his way.
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Yes, iJustin, it was on a glacier that his "mountaineering boots were independently steering him down the Baltoro at their own glacial speed."
When I first read that, I re-read it in disbelief.
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I'm glad to see you all -- my computer went dead yesterday, and I paniced, thinking I would need to buy a new one. Fortunately, it came back to life last night as suddenly as it had died -- I think it was my service, not the computer at all.
Mortensen was indeed lucky to have emerged alive. I'm a mountain-climbing book junkie, although I am afraid of hieghts, and will never climb myself. Many people have died trying to do what he did -- take care of everyone else with no rest. The slowness, fuzziness of thought, and poor decision-making are typical of those who have been in high altitude too long.
I really fault his guide for losing him twice -- the first time was understandable, but after finding im and seeing his condition, he should have never let Mortensen out of his sight. Do you all agree?
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Here's the link to the download for Google Earth.
Google Earth (http://earth.google.com/)
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Oh Pedln, that Google Earth site will be my downfall. I've been browsing since 6:30 this AM and resent having to leave it to go somewhere this AM. It's awesome. How do these poor people exist there?
I found this :
Baltis are of Tibetan descent and Wikipedia says that Baltisan contains some of the highest
mountains and longest glaciers in the world. Baltistan possesses approximately fifty peaks with heights of more than 20,000 feet (6,100 m) above sea level.
Mighty K2 - the second highest peak in the world at 8,611 meters in height – is situated here, overlooking the Shigar valley.
Justin-The glaciers - the longest in the world outside the Polar Regions, reaching to a length of 90 kilometers – surround Baltistan in the north and west directions, separating her from China and Gilgit.
The region lacks major industry. As permanent sources of job opportunities are lacking, thousands of people have left the region either temporarily or on a permanent basis to go to
other parts of Pakistan and the Middle East.
Although climatic conditions are harsh and inhospitable, the village people of Baltistan are among the most friendly and hospitable of mountain peoples in Pakistan.
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I rejoice to say that my book was waiting for me at the library yesterday morning. I promptly began reading it on returning home, beginning with Mr. Relin's Introduction. I was charmed to read that Mortenson's group "has attracted what has to be one of the most underqualified and overachieving staffs of any charitable organization on earth". I was once part of a group like that, and it is amazing what heartfelt dedication can achieve.
Relin writes of the difference Mortenson has made among the villages of
Pakistan. "...he has singlehandedly changed the lives of tens of thousands of children, and independently won more hearts and minds than all the official American propaganda flooding the region."
Relin goes on to say that we, as Americans, have failed to make our case to
the mass of people of the Muslim world, and that we need to listen to what
Greg Mortenson is saying. I'm 'listening'.
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Babi- I am so pleased that you have book in hand to join us in this discussion. What a joy it must be to those who have truly made such an extensive difference in the world.
I love high-spirited people and love this quote of the Balti way of life:
"They conive, complain and fustrate one to the utmost. ....if you are able to overlook their roughness, you'll learn they serve you faithfully."
As we've read, GM was graciously welcomed into Korphe, a village that had never seen a foreigner and a place that Mortenson had never heard of before..
One would have to have great trust in another human they have never met when mountain climbing. Your life is their hands and our "sherpa" Mouzafer was in his mid-fifties. That is scary and yet he kept constant vigilence on Mortenson.
GM learned much of the Balti language while climbing with Mouzafer.
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Babi, I’m glad you got your book. And you can be sure we will all be “listening” to Mortenson’s message as we read about his adventures and experiences.
JoanK, I can’t fault Mouzafer for losing track of GM the second time. They were past the “danger” zone, supposedly on the trail, and had established a pattern of Mouzafer going ahead and having camp ready when GM reached it. It was the trees that caused GM to veer off in the wrong direction. He knew the trees meant civilization, and, following them, failed to notice the fork in the trail.
Andy, that Google Earth is very addictive, and I’m finding I need to learn more about how to use it. I don’t always find the same things twice. Earlier today I found several references to Three Cups of Tea, and even a photo of the Korphe School, but now I can’t get back to them. A bit of a learning curve.
Regarding trust – yes, really necessary. But Mortenson had been on lesser climbs before, and probably had an idea of what to expect from the porters.
I'm trying to visualize Mouzafer in that little cable box high above the river gorge -- a dangerous trip, but much faster than trekking. I don't know if I'd have that kind of trust.
Basic Users Guide to Google Earth (http://www.gearthblog.com/basics.html)
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We Westerners take such pride in our mountain climbing abilities, ignoring the fact that the local people who serve as our guides do two or three times as much work with no heroes welcome. I'm glad to see the world is finally acknowledging that it was Tensing, not hillary, who was the first to summit Everest.
I own a copy of the AMC movie about climbing Everest. If you get a chance to watch it, I think you will like it. The Discovery channel also did a series on a group that climbed Everest. It may be available through Netflix.
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I have attempted to download and view Google Earth 6 times. Although there are 6 indications on my screen, none of the instructions to which I am directed when I click on any of the 6 work for me. For example, I am directed to click on _________, which does NOT appear on my screen. I finally wrote on a piece of paper all of the instructions, turned off the computer, restarted it again and thought I was just missing some instructions. Again, none of the directions to click on a specific spot appeared on my screen. What am I missing here?
Mahlia
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Mountain climbing is something I only want to live vicariously with my knuckles white and biting my nails but for some reason reading true stories of climbing mountains have always fascinated me...I said I would do this plus two other books but a death in the family kept me from doing anything >>today I went to B&N and bought a copy will read tonight and return tomorrow ..tomorrow ......
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Justin your experience reminds me of one I had when I'd first learned to float and got pulled out into the surf. a life guard came and got me. I was eleven years old and have never forgotten it. a crucial experience.
Mortenson was on a spiritual journy hoping to honor his sisters death at the top of K2 and wasn't able to complete it. It left him very depressed and vulnerable to his own dangerous position, lost, disorientated and expecting to die. The guide who found him and saved him was a part of what he later did in the struggle to build the first school.
I was glad to get a picture of what this country is really like, the mountains and gorges and the difficulty in travel, the isolation and the meaning of that third cup of really stinky tea. The culture explained some of the current problems we are having there also. Lots of information has made me aware that o;ur lives are completely different than theiers. We have to work to understand them and we must.
I own and have read the book and so far have not checked to see where in the story the assignment ends at chapter six. I will try not to get ahead of us though. It's a wonderful book. I loved it.
In my opinion, Mortenson as a mountain climber is persistent in the pursuit of his sport which suggests to me that he has the character which could lead him to challenge all obstacles once he'd decided what he wants to do.
claire
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PERSIAN: try going to http://earth.google.com
on upper right hand side - Download Google Earth 5.0
After it has downloaded you should have an icon on your start up page -- looks like a little planet earth. From there you can enter the site.
Also if you want to keep track of places, there is a little yellow thumb tack on the upper tool bar. When you are at a place you want to remember, click on the thumb tack. It will ask you to give it a name. Then it will set the thumb tack on the spot so you can find it again.
Wonder what will happen to the schools now that the Taliban is moving back into this area?
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I found this site of Galen Rowells work, and picked this part of it. The pictures are so incredibly beautiful, I had a hard time tearing myself away.
http://www.mountainlight.com/gallery.arctic/images.html
ALF, not only was Mousafer in his mid-fifties, he was about 5'4"
and leaping 'effortlessly' over crevasses with a 90-lb. pack on
his back! The strength of these people is amazing.
David Relin really has a way with words. "..the broad set-backs and buttresses of maroon and ochre granite that built, with symphonic intensity, toward the lone soaring finale of their peaks..."
Lover of words that I am, I was thrilled to learn that the people of Korphe speak an antique form of Tibetan. What a boon it must be to scholars of archaic languages when pockets of people are found actually speaking one of the old tongues. I can imagine what a tremendous boost it gives to the translation and understanding of old texts. Ah, sometimes I think I missed my calling. ::)
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I started reading last night and was mesmerized by the wonderful , descriptive words and the tenacity of those who brave the unknown ...it is just spellbinding ...I am not near the 6th chapter I think I stopped at 3 but my eyes were tired and it was late...to read further would most likely meant I would have to repeat...I am so glad this was chosen ...like the air atop the mountains ..it is rare.
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Good morning one and all.
I just returned from church where the pastor gave a sermon about "trials and tribulations" which will lead to change within a person.
I couldn't help but drift off and think about Mortenson and how his adverse ordeal led him to a different path in his life. One burden, led to another; his distress and misery opened up a whole new world to him and hundreds of others. It puts it in a different perspective to think about it in that way, doesn't it?
As winsumm mentioned, GM was on a spiritual journey due to Christa, his neurologically damaged, epileptic younger (by 12 years) sister who was also his goddaughter.
GM says of her:
"She faced her limitations with grace."
He majored in neurophysiology at IU in hopes that he would some day find a cure for Christa. Christa died at age 23 after a grand mal seizure and when Greg was approached by another climber about joining the expedition to K2, he dedicated his climb to the memory of Christa.
"He'd find a way to wring some meaning out of this meaningless loss."
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fairanna- haha, I quite agree with you about the vicarious living aspect of mountain climbing.
You take care with those eyes of yours, this is a long journey and we need you to arrive at the summit of OUR journey safely and in good health.
Babi- I hope that was a typo but our boy was 6'4- leaping and avoiding the crevasses.
Thanks kidsall for your help with Mahlia's difficulties with Google.
Persian did you see the url for basic TIPS using Google that was provided by pedln?
Oh by the way go to the very top and notice that the discussion schedue is up on the right- just before the 3 questions.
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KIDSALL - thanks for your suggestions about installing and managing Google Earth. I've spent about 30 minutes trying to figure out how to add the program and then access the various information. The program was intalled, but then several full-screen cautions came up warning that "this program might negatively impair" other programs and the overall functioning of my system. I immediately ran a couple of virus checks and decided that I really didn't need Google Earth if I have to worry about what it might do in the future. I'll just read info from other posters and enjoy the program from afar.
ALF - I can truly appreciate GM's dedication to his sister's challenges with epilepsy, as I was diagnosed when I graduated from the 8th grade and in those days the future was dire. At that time I was told I could never undertake any physical challenges, would probably not be able to marry or have children, could definitely not travel, and most likely would have to remain at home with parents for the rest of my life - which most likely would be short. MY mother was devastated in much the same way that GM's family must have felt, but I didn't feel that way.
And I am delighted to say that many of the young folks whom I've met over the years who also struggled with grand mal and petite mal seizures (and other life-challenging issues connected with epilepsy) felt empowered to follow some of their own dreams.
It is heartening to learn about GM's love and dedication to his sister and her memory as he continued meeting and addressing the challenges in his own life. The love for and appreciation of one human being doesn't end with physical life, as we learn most clearly from GM's efforts to remember Christa.
In this morning's Adult Sunday School class, we discussed the Book of Daniel and how Daniel interacted with King Nebuchadnezzar and his non-Jewish Court and kingdom. As we talked, I mentioned this discussion and some of the experiences GM had as he explored a region of the world as alien to many in contemporary times as the ancient kingdoms of the Middle East. We talked for a few minutes about both time periods and it was fascinating to listen to a roomful of Southern Christians (many of whom have never traveled away from their hometown at any time in their lives) trying to grasp the differences between the regions and time periods.
From my perspective, it was an opportunity to think about how people of very different backgrounds can learn to recognize a wide array of positive qualities about people quite different than themselves, achieve a comfort level with each other, work together, respect each other and move ahead in many positive ways. GM illustrates this clearly in Afghanistan as did those described in Biblical times.
Mahlia
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From my perspective, it was an opportunity to think about how people of very different backgrounds can learn to recognize a wide array of positive qualities about people quite different than themselves, achieve a comfort level with each other, work together, respect each other and move ahead in many positive ways.
I quite agree with you perspective Mahlia and believe that this is what we are all doing here at SeniorLearn when we opt for a book such as this. It's out of our normal comfort zone, but with a great deal of information available to share we move ahead to respectfully impact one another's thoughts.
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MAHLIA: you are a treasure! You have not only done more than most people ever do, you have helped so many others along the way. I am proud to know you.
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Mahlia and Andy, you both have pointed out something that also came up the other day on SeniorLearn's Talking Heads discussion -- how we deal with things or people outside our comfort zone. Someone was telling about a young man in the music store -- very very knowledgable, and also very pierced on his body. Sometimes it takes a lot of effort for us to get past the differencees to seel the things that really count. We're learning.
A pictoral link for your enjoyment. Click to make it larger.
Porters in the Baltistan (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/858499.jpg)
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ALF, I was referring to the Balti guide, Mousafer, who is described as being
a foot shorter than Greg Mortenson.
Beautiful photograph, PEDLN. The detail is so sharp and clear. Did you get a
chance to look at any of Rowell's photography in the link I posted?
I think Mortenson made an important point when he said, about the
dedication of the Kilimanjaro Christian Medical Center founded by his
father, "The expats wanted him to say, 'Look what we've done for you'.
But he was saying, 'Look what you've done for yourselves and how much
more you can do'." It is that difference in attitude that decides how
our efforts are regarded in the countries we try to assist, IMO.
I find myself frequently reminded of "Charlie Wilson's War". I'm sure many
of you saw that movie. After his successful efforts to persuade our government to assist the Afghans in their struggle against the Russians, he fought unsuccessfully to persuade Congress to build schools there. He felt it was the only way to hold on to the advantage that had been gained there. That same idea is expressed in a reference to Sir Edmund Hillary's "Schoolhouse in the Clouds". Congress refused to support Wilson's drive for schools for the Afghan children, and I think we are seeing the results of that shortsightedness
today.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/3cupstea/3cupsofteacvr.jpg) |
Three Cups of Tea
by
Greg Mortenson & David Oliver Relin
"The first time that you share tea with a Balti, you are a stranger" a villager tells our author. "The second time, you are an honored guest. The third time you become family." ~ Three Cups of Tea
______________ Three Cups of Tea is an inspirational story of one man's efforts to address poverty, educate girls, and overcome cultural divides. This book won the 2007 Kiriyama Prize for nonfiction revealing the enormous obstacles inherent in becoming such "family." ~ Bookmarks Magazine
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Three Cups of Tea -- Homepage. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/)
Ignorance -- the Real Enemy. (http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=22471)
Synopsis and Biography. (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Three-Cups-of-Tea/Greg-Mortenson/e/9780143038252/?itm=1)
Readers' Guide by the Author. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/wp-includes/documents/3CTReadingGuide.pdf)
K2 Mountain. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2)
| -- | Discussion Schedule - May 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 6
- May 8 - 14 Chapters 7 - 12
- May 15 - 21 Chapters 13 - 18
- May 22 - 31 Chapters 19 - End
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| . | 1. What made Mortenson particularly ripe for such a transformation? Has anything similar happened in your own life?
2. Is Mortenson someone that you would like to know, work with or have as a neighbor or friend?
3. At the heart of the book is a powerful but simple poliical message: we each as individuals have the power to change the world, one cup of tea at a time, etc. | . |
Discussion Leaders: Andy(ALF43) (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
BABI - Absolutely! Many years ago, when I was teaching in China, some of my colleagues and students accompanied me on a two-day trip to the Northwestern area of the country, where we met many Uigurs and some Tajiks at a lifestock fair. The students were excited, since they were from the central Szechuan region and had never traveled too far away from their own areas. On our travels, we met people who were quite different than the students (and several of the colleagues who accompanied us). The students were intrigued by the differences - pointed, grinned, laughed out loud at the differences in clothing, speech, and interactive manners. I used that experience as a teaching tool when we were back in our classroom, stressing that "differences are not bad, but often interesting, and a great way to learn about world regions - right in your own "backyard."
Mahlia
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Babi, good point about Charlie Wilson's efforts to have schools built. I saw the movie, but had forgotten much of it. I'm glad you brought it up.
During his first stay in Korphe, GM asks to visit the local school, and a poor excuse for a school it is. Eighty some students meeting in the outdoors. A teacher costs a dollar a day, which the village cannot afford, so they share a teacher with a neighboring village, who comes three times a week. And for supplies, they use sticks and dirt, or, more rarely, slates.
The governmental attitude towards education, especially in the poorer areas, has apparently changed little. Today there is an article in the NY Times about the growth of Islamic schools (madrasas) in Pakistan, more militant than the public schools, but often the only recourse for poorer families.
Pakistan’s Islamic Schools Fill Void, but Fuel Militancy (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/04/world/asia/04schools.html?hp)
Here are some quotes from the article.
Literacy in Pakistan has grown from barely 20 percent at independence 61 years ago, and the government recently improved the curriculum and reduced its emphasis on Islam.
But even today, only about half of Pakistanis can read and write, far below the proportion in countries with similar per-capita income, like Vietnam. One in three school-age Pakistani children does not attend school, and of those who do, a third drop out by fifth grade, according to Unesco. Girls’ enrollment is among the lowest in the world, lagging behind Ethiopia and Yemen.
“This is a state that never took education seriously,” said Stephen P. Cohen, a Pakistan expert at the Brookings Institution. “I’m very pessimistic about whether the educational system can or will be reformed.”
There is too much in the article to copy and quote here. Reading it emphasizes to me the tremendous and never-ending job that Mortenson has taken on.
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Persian, what a great teaching tool that you used. I think, particularly kids, who are exposed to a different culture accept it more readily than adults, don't you?
Fellowship amongst children is a given.
Thanks Pedln for the links and Babi reminding us of Charlie Wilson's War. I had a hard time wrapping my thoughts around the word MUSLIM meaning literally to SUBMIT!
Is it correct to assume that the submission is to their God, Allah?
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ALF - The following brief explanation might help you as you reflect on the words "God" (English) and "Allah" (Arabic). I had this piece in the notes from one of my lectures a couple of years ago, but it is pretty much a mainstay. Keep in mind also that it is NOT unusual for Muslims to use the phrase "the God of Abraham" when speaking in English.
Part of the confusion between the words "Allah" and "God" being the same deity, is the usage of Arabic. Allah is the Arabic word for God and does not symbolize a different god. Therefore, it is logical that when the Christians in Palestine (who speak Arabic) call on God, they say the name "Allah". Remember also that there are substantial Arabic speaking Christians, especially in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, just as there are non-Arab Christians in Persia (Iran), Turkey and Ethiopia (to name only a few global regions).
Another confusion in this reference is between the words "Allah" and "God" by Muslim leaders who continue to use the name "Allah" when they are speaking in English. This certainly can cause an illusion that "Allah" is an entirely different deity. Yet is is the speakers' personal choice, since Muslims are encouraged in the Quran (Chapter 17, verse 110) "Call Him GOD, or call Him the Most Gracious; whichever name you use, to Him belongs the best names." In the end, we are informed in the Quran, that: [7:180] To GOD belongs the most beautiful names; call upon Him therewith, and disregard those who distort His names.
Hope this helps.
Mahlia
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Christians know their deities by Greek names as well as Hebrew. Jesus, for example is Greek for the Hebrew Joshua. English versions of the Bible tended to use Hebrew names for others. In the case of Moses, the name is Egyptian meaning son, I think. I take this from Thutmose as son of Thoth. That's a stretch for me because the last part of a royal Egyptian name usually refers to a God as in Tutankamon.
References to the God of Abraham are made as Yahway. Since there are no vowels in Hebrew and since the name of God may not be spoken the letters YHWH are used. This naming game is complex.
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Jehoshaphat is another reference to God. John also refers to God as the Logos.
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Thank you both, Mahlia and justin. It does help clarify the "names" for me. I am scheduled to take a course on Islam in August so I'll be all set, won't I?
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Mahlia and Justin, this discussion is offering such a great opportunity
to clarify so many points of misunderstanding. I will note that even beyond
'Joshua', there is "Yeshua", the Aramaic form which may very well be what
his family actually called the boy we know as Jesus.
I can remember a lecture on the 'logos' by a Monsignor while I was in
college. It was a real eye-opener for me.
Another thing which has changed very little in so many of these poorer
countries, PEDLN, is the way in which funds coming in, for whatever purpose,
seem to dwindle every time they pass through an official set of hands. So
frustrating for those trying to help the people at the bottom of the heap.
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JUSTIN - when I read your comment about the origin of the name "Moses," I recalled talking with one of the senior Egyptian representatives many years ago when he was helping to set up the magnificent King Tut exhibit in Washington DC. As we talked, the fellow began to tell me of the history of the Royal Egyptian Kingdom and mentioned the name Moses ("Taken from the Water"), which is Musa in Arabic and Mose in Hebrew. It was a tremendously intriguing conversation as I've always been interested in the ancient history of the region. Indeed the origin of the various names, meaning, spelling in multiple languages and pronunciation can be challenging.
ALF - I hope you enjoy your class on Islam. Do you know the focus of the class (i.e., ancient/current history, comparison with the two other Abrahamic religions, differences between and among global Islamic societies, etc.)? I've always enjoyed delving into the numerous questions RE "differences" from students about the cultures from which the various religions derive and the reasons for the differences. It is especially intriguing when one can refer to the Jewish, Christian and Islamic scriptures at the same time, thus getting a simultaneous understanding of the varied cultural histories.
I remember an invitation I received a couple of years ago to share the podium at a program, where I was one of two speakers on "Differences in Religions." The co-speaker was a fundamentalist Christian who spoke only negatively about Islam. When it was my turn, I folded my notes into my bag and instead responded to each of his negative comments. It was not an attempt to change one's thinking, but to help the audience understand that indeed there are differences - just as with any topic - but that a clearer understanding of Islam would go a long way to help folks appreciate Muslims world-wide without condemning them from ignorance.
BABI You've made an excellent point about the distribution of funds. Indeed there is "baksheesh" (a bribe) expected (and usually paid) at the highest levels of government as well as among the "least of us." It is often a well understood fact that unless the bribes are paid (and continually) whatever services are expected will NOT be forthcoming. My own personal experience in travels abroad, especially among rural villagers whom I am blessed to help, is that contributions even placed in the hands of the most needy are often "demanded" for various reasons by Elders. And if the initial recipients do not respond promptly, their is an ugly punishment.
Mahlia
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pedin thankyou for the beautiful photo. the country is incredibly beautiful . is that a rock wall they are lined up against or does the line define the rocks???
the book has photos but not in color or very big. when I saw some of mortenson I was reminded of my son who is also six four and has a great smile. I think if a movie is made Dennis Quaid would be good for the part. saw him last night on tv.
claire
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As promised I am joining the discussion after finishing "Dreams of my Father" for my F2F book group this Friday.
I have caught up on your posts and have almost completed the reading assignment for this week in Three Cups of Tea.
A few years back I wrote six articles for the magazine "The California Therapist" They were titled "Our Clients and their Religion". It was an attempt to help therapists know some of the basic facts of clients , who in CA especially, cover a wide range of religions. I also gave examples of how knowing about a religion can help the therapist respect and understand their clients needs and decisions. The articles were on Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity (mainly the many variations of the Protestant Faith) Catholicism and Islam.
Within each of these faiths there are many, many variations depending on factors such as country of origin of the family, the importance their religous faith plays in their decision making process, the amount of education (secular or religous) and on and on.
Thus I can't draw any conclusions about Islam from the book we are reading . Islam in this part of Pakistan and Afghanistan has its own face but that changes in other parts of the world. Just as other religions have their own interpretation of their precepts and of their holy books which changes and fluctuates from place to place. I am afraid of making generalizations about anything based on one book.
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Justin, I agree that any definitive conclusion should not be reached, due to the fact that it mattered not to Mortenson as he joined in worship and felt "for the first moment during all his days in Pakistan, no one was looking at him as an outsider."
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mortenson had to learn to wash his feet and how exactly to pray to satisfy himself and to help pave the way for his projects. He was sincere, had grown up in africa, understood and respected the differences amongst people which are true in terms of business practices as well as religion. it's hard not to jump just a little ahead?
claire
re: the children in china POINTING and laughing. Here, that would be insulting to peolpe. We wouldn't like it.
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JUSTIN: another rendition of the Hebrew name of God YHVH is Jahovah. (The Y can be translated as either Y or J andthe vav can be either V or W). In the Hebrew Bible, it is written YHVH, but when the bible is read, it is not pronounced, but the word Adonai (my Lord) is said instead. Or in some places, the word Elohiem is used: the Hebrew word for a god, including the gods of other religions.
I have a photograph of one of the Dead Sea scrolls, in which you can clearly see that while the rest of the scroll is in Hebrew letters, the name of god is in a different lettering system. Even if you don't read Hebrew, you can clearly pick out wherever the name of God is mentioned, it looks so different.
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Mahlia, what would you recommend as a good starter book for someone who knows very little about the Quran and Islam? I had thought of Michael Sells' "Approaching the Quran", which made a splash a few years ago whan a university assigned it as reading to incoming freshmen. It looks readable and short enough not to be too formidable, though certainly just a baby step. Do you know a better?
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PAT - in response to your inquiry, I would highly recommend a good English translation of the Holy Qur'an. There are several editions - check my post #74 in the earlier discussion (which is now locked, but accessible for reading) for the name of my copy, which includes extensive footnotes, explanations for non-Muslim readers about various aspects of the religion and how it is practiced globally. Also note that Justin's translation is the Dawood edition (right, Justin?); also an excellent resource for non-Muslims.
If you prefer to read "about" Islam, rather than the Holy Qur'an itself (even in English translation), there are numerous (and I mean NUMEROUS) publications on which to draw. It all depends on what you wish to better understand, your own religious background and teaching (and acceptance) of other religions, whether the Abrahamic ones or others, and how comfortable you are intellectually and personally in reading/learning about practices quite different than those with which you were raised and to which you adhere.
JUDY made an excellent point in her post above about "not drawing conclusions" regarding how Islam is taught, understood and practiced in many different cultures around the world. Recognize that a major portion of those differences are cultural, NOT specifically religious, as well as the understanding and teaching skills of whomever is responsible for the teaching. For example, an illiterate village elder, who has never read the Holy Qur'an for himself, but was raised to believe by listening to someone else recite verses, while incorporating tribal/clan culture into the verbal teaching is NOT going to convey the same information in the same manner as a well educated religious scholar who has been able to read, research, and develop intellectual reasoning for himself/herself, as well as discuss differences with others.
But then that is also true in other religions as cultures. For example, when my husband and I relocated to the American South several years ago, neither one of us had lived in this region before. It is surely different, often bewildering, sometimes culturally uncomfortable. But it is a continued learning opportunity for both of us.
Hope the above helps.
Mahlia
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Jude, welcome. Glad you can now join us. You and Mahlia have given us much to think about when you point out how difficult it is to draw conclusions about someone’s religion without knowing the many other aspects of their lives.
Babi, are you a mind reader?
Another thing which has changed very little in so many of these poorer
countries, PEDLN, is the way in which funds coming in, for whatever purpose,
seem to dwindle every time they pass through an official set of hands. So
frustrating for those trying to help the people at the bottom of the heap.
Much of the Lehrer Newshour tonight was devoted to the disagreements in Congress over funding to Pakistan – for the very thing that you have said. Will the money be used as intended or will it go to line pockets?
A sad statistic from this evening – only 48% of Pakistan’s children attend school. And we already know the purpose of some of those schools.
Babi, yes, I did see some of Rowell’s pictures. The one taken in a crevisse after a fall was something to behold. I assume they got out.
Shigar Valley (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/5451576.jpg) -- between Korphe and Skardu
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WOW! Ijust read all of your posts. I find them informative, and fascinating. The title of this book was off putting, for me. I have never felt much interest in this part of the world, either. However, I could identify myself as a humanitarian. Today, I read the introduction to this book, and am eager to read the book. I also read the list of ways a person can help with educating the children. I do not have a lot of money, but am ready to subscribe to the $1 a day, for pencils.
The thing that fascinates me most, is the discussion of religious differences. I was raised in a fundamentalist, Christian church. Even as a child, I could not understand why we sang "Jesus Loves Me", while at the same time racial prejudice was practiced by many American people, who called themselves Christians. Since my youth, I have attended many different Christian denominations. My faith has evolved over the course of my life. Today, I believe there is only one God, but people call Him/Her by many different names. I would love to get involved in a discussion on the religions of the world.
My driver's license expires next week. So, I have been studying the driver's handbook. My memory isn't very good at almost 75 y/o, so it requires reading and rereading the handbook, over and over. Most of my time is taken up with this. Until I pass the test on the 14th, I will have to squeeze in reading this discussion, and reading as much as I am able.
Sheila
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Sheila: It is nice to have you in this discussion with us. Someone with a fundamentalist background who recognizes the effects of cultural influence on the way religion is practiced can be a real asset.
The Congress is rightly concerned about "squeeze." I am sure Mortenson will encounter the problem. Building schools is a wonderful alternative to violent conflict but I am sure it has a price that someone must be willing to pay. I'll bet the US government has paid "squeeze" in Irag and has felt it's pinch in Pakistan.
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Sheila- don't you worry, we will be riight here. You take your time studying what it is you must relearn and come back when you require a good hot cup of tea. :D
Like many of you here, this is a learning experience for me.
It catches my breath as I learn the stirring history of Pakistan, amazed by the various ancient cultures and conquerors that have led this country.
The migration of tribes and the multiple trade routes that have been traveled have influenced this area for centuries and I find it quite over whelming.
I am so pleased that each of you can bring such detailed enlightenment & interest to this discussion.
I wonder how the Taliban feels about these existing schools right now. Does anyone have any idea if these schools and its children are "off limits" to the destruction and havoc the Taliban create?
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Mahlia- we have lived in many areas of the USA and reside now in the south. I believe each area in our country has its own indigenous attitudes that are innate to that particular region.
Some times it is only a "mindset" other times it is prejudicial and biased. Not just reliegious differences but attributes inherent in a community can be uncomfortable.
But then that is also true in other religions as cultures. For example, when my husband and I relocated to the American South several years ago, neither one of us had lived in this region before. It is surely different, often bewildering, sometimes culturally uncomfortable. But it is a continued learning opportunity for both of us.
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It is apparent that Mortenson fully understands that Islam worships
the same God as the Christians. He has no problem at all with joining
in prayer with his Muslim allies, and praying in their fashion. I had to smile
when Abdul said he couldn't quite pass for Pakistani, but that he would believe he was Bosnian. Then, after a hard day's work, decided Mortenson
was finally dirty and sweaty enough to truly pass as a Pakistani. ;D
CLAIRE, I also have a 6'4" son, and naturally thought of him when
I read the decription of MOrtenson. It's only in the last few years,
tho', that he began to be as 'hefty' as our hero.
JUDE, I think you are wise not to want to make generalizations about
a religion based on one book. What I am hoping to find here are insights
that will shake loose some preconceptions and misconceptions. I think
the book is doing that for us.
PEDLN, it seems to me that all the pictures I've seen of the mountain
country of Pakistan are simply overwhelming. One feels so very small.
SHEILA, I did so identify with your perceptions of religion as a child.
I can recall, at perhaps 8 or 9, asking my mother's permission to attend
a very pretty stone church close by. I thought it would be so pleasant to
sit in such a lovely place for a sermon. Unfortunately, they had a guest
speaker, whose sermon consisted of a diatribe against Catholics. Even at
that young age, I knew this was all wrong, and left very saddened.
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Sheila: boy do I understand how you feel about the driving test! I find myself more and more forgetting things I just read. If I put down a book for more than a day, I can't remember who any of the characters are. Look forward to you joining us soon.
We will soon be learning about aide disappearing first-hand. I listened to some of the hearing last night that was featured on The News Hour. As one Congressman after another asked "why should we give Pakistan aid, when it all disappears into people's pockets, I found myself yelling "hire Mortensen". We'll see next week his struggles with this.
Meanwhile, he is back in the States. What do you think of him, now that we know more about how he lives? What about his fund-raising?
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What made Mortenson ripe for such a transformation? As several people pointed out, it was the death of his sister that was the immediate cause. But there's more too. Practically his whole life was a sort of prep course for this. He spent his childhood watching his parents found hospitals and schools needed by a poor country. He grew up surrounded by a mix of nationalities, learning other languages, and feeling comfortable with different religions, willing to participate. (I haven't read ahead of this week's assignment, but I see from the conversation that this will become even more important.) The things he had to do were things he had grown up with.
I think the death of his sister was important in more than one way. His grief made him want to do something meaningful in her memory. But also, he looks like a person who has a need to assume a caring, protective role. With his sister gone, he had no outlet for this side of his personality, so it was free, ready to be used when the time came.
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'With his sister gone, he had no outlet for this side of his (caring) personality, so it was free, ready to be used when the time came.'
What an interesting observation, Pat. The book does take the reader into the wildest places and strangest cultures, but, really, isn't it mainly about the many lives of Greg Mortenson? Not the least of his fine qualities is his ability to adapt: when in Rome, do as the Romans. As Babi has pointed out:
'He has no problem at all with joining
in prayer with his Muslim allies, and praying in their fashion.'
And how about that fine proof of having learned his lesssons, when he leans forward in the helicopter, taps General Bhangoo on the shoulder, and says: General, sir, I think we're heading the wrong way.' Having once lost his way on the galcier, Mortenson is constantly aware of his bearings.
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I am glad to be back and have read the assigned chapters...Everything about this book and the people in it are special in a hundred ways.. funny you are talking about there is One God but different names Twenty years ago or more I was reading the Bible again and starting in Genesis I was reading and all of a sudden I told my husband I think Genesis is saying that there is one GOD but many names for HIM ..if that is true then somehow we ought to recognize that and stop arguing ...When I was young and dating the young man at the moment invited me to his church and I nearly walked out because the minister was showing HATE in his sermon for Jews . I have been blessed to be raised in a family that respected all people and all faiths . I thought it was the way everyone was .. What a shock to grow up and find out how vehement some were about thier beliefs ..which I could never and still dont understand I love this book and feel strong about supporting this man's efforts to help children learn IN fact last year I wrote a poem telling parents to arm their children with knowledge not guns are some of the gadgets that are available for children and adults ...I have always loved crossword puzzlesand word puzzles but I really hate the games that teach children how to destroy Well back to the book we have a tornado watch until 4am and I am going to read ths book .. GOD BLESS EVERYONE regardless of what name you use..
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WOW! Again! I just finished reading the first 6 chapters. I love it! DOR's writing quite poetic. He really draws pictures with his words. What I would really like to do, is just spend all of my time, reading this book. I find myself wanting to read more about that part of the world.
I would veery much like to spend some time with Greg Mortenson. His life fascinates me. What a wonderful experience he had, growing up in Africa. Growing up with people with a differnt skin color, prepared him for looking past differences, and to accept them. It seems to me that when a person gets to really know someone, whose appearance is different from their own, it reduces prejudice.
My late husband was totally blind for the last eleven years of his life. He was very much turned off by men with long hair, and a Hippie lifestyle. We drove to the place where we built a home in the 1970s. We were interested to see what it looked like, years later. When we got there, a man in his 30s came out to talk with us. He had long hair, and 60s clothing and he and my husband had an enjoyable conversation. I was struck by knowing that if Ralph had been able to see, he probably would not have been open to conversing with him.
I am so grateful to have lived in Europe. We were stationed there in the early 60s. I have been to Italy, Germany, England, Ireland, and Austria . I am grateful for having experienced so many different cultures. I have also spent time in both Canada and Mexico. Being exposed to different cultures, has enriched my life. However, I know nothing of Pakistan, or Afganistan.
Sheila
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Babi- you are tall so I can see you having a son who is 6'4", the size of GM. ::)
Who WAS this mangy-looking dude in his dirty shalwar?
I looked that word up and here is a picture of a shalwar (salwar), these PJ like outfits worn by both men and women.
check it out here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salwar_kameez)
They had to guess at his nationality, we're told, as "word spread that an enormous infidel in brown pajamas was loading a truck full of supplies for muslim schoolchildren."
I loved the way that Abdul cleaned Greg's shoes and took such pride in his appearance.
You are correct serene in your statement about the descriptive, poetic writing of D O R. Although, I must admit, like DOR, people that have no sense of a time frame" such as GM drive me nuts, too! I like timely!!!! If you are supposed to be somewhere aat a certain time, then BE THERE!
Can you believe that the amount of supplies, a height of 20 feet, that had to be secured? 20 ft. high?
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Anna- I quote you:
GOD BLESS EVERYONE regardless of what name you use..
That is the beauty of sharing this type of literature.
Few of us are knowledgable of this religion or AREA, nor have lived as these people do and yet we understand that dissimilar worship, tenets and beliefs should be honored and respected as we seperately glorify and invoke our own deity.
Jonathan says 'He has no problem at all with joining
in prayer with his Muslim allies, and praying in their fashion.'
I think Mortenson does and on pg. 75 we read that "there would be plenty of opportunity, searching for a foothold on the passenger door, to practice his praying."
I would feel so blessed to be accepted at a different worship ritual.
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SHEILA - I appreciate your comments about the blessings you experienced during your residency in Europe, as my son and his family just returned to the USA after a 2 1/2 posting in Germany. During their assignment abroad, they took full advantage of their geographical location to travel extensively, hike, ski, and paraglide over some magnificent areas. My two grandkids studied foreign languages while in Europe and I tease them about their accents now when they speak English.
I wonder whether after reading about Mortenson's experiences, any of the posters here will be inclined to visit a mosque and take an opportunity to talk with Muslims? Those who live in (or near) large cities should have no trouble locating an Islamic house of worship. I've often accompanied non-Muslim friends, colleagues and students to the mosques in Washington DC so that they could interact with the congregants and learn about Islam. Some of the folks I accompanied returned on their own and participated in various functions at the invitation of the Muslims whom they'd met earlier. Numerous times they were invited to bring their children to special programs for the youth and it was great fun for the host families AND the visitors.
I also recall that some of the same visitors who accompanied me to an Islamic mosque, also went with me to visit worship services in Quaker congregations in Pennsylvania, a Pentecostal church in a small farming community, a beautiful large Catholic church in Maryland, and a Jewish shul (also in Maryland), where I used to teach American citizensip classes in the Welcome Center. All different types of services, manners of worshiping "the same God," but welcoming to us as sojourners. One doesn't always have to travel to faraway places to learn about different faith customs. Sometimes the opportunities are nearby.
ALF - I smiled when I read your comment about being on time. I'm confident that if you traveled in rural areas of Central Asia (like Mortenson and others) you would be so heartily welcomed that your Western sense of time would surely take a back seat to the joy and fascination you experienced. And "being on time" is interpreted quite differently in various parts of the world. For example, a statement like "Ill be there next week," doesn't give a specific date/day/time, but you would be welcomed whenever you arrived.
JOAN - I wondered if there had been any attempt to contact Greg Mortenson since he is back in the US and invite him to participate occasionally in this discussion?
Mahlia
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Anna, Jonathan, Sheila – so good to see you all here. And an interesting point, Jonathan, about GM always being aware of his bearings, knowing where he was. But my heart bled for him as he was typing up all those letters, not knowing how quickly a computer would do the job for him. But perhaps that is just part of his very independent nature.
And then I wonder, is he that independent? What a lot of trust it took to turn over the purchase of supplies to Abdul and others. $12,000 that he had struggled so hard to get. (That professor is probably another story. I hope he comes up again.)
Another facet of GM that was impressive – he didn’t touch a cent of that $12,000 for anything concerning him, but sold off a lot of belongings, treasured items, to get enough funds to travel to Pakistan.
PatH, you brought up a good point about the nature of GM – that he’s a very caring person, and that after Christa’s death it was only natural for him to be caring for another.
Andy, it sounds like Mortenson and his African time was much like Puerto Rican time. “Come to dinner at 7,” said our hostess, and then we sat down to eat at ten. We were the first ones there, of course. However, adapting to another culture’s time frame is pretty easy. But after 10 years of showing up when you pleased, it didn’t take too long to find out that that didn’t go over very well in the States.
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The sense or lack thereof of TIME was not just something from Mortenson's Central Asian experience. His mother said he had always been like that. The co-author agreed as to the frustration knowing someone that had no sense of time.
I'm sure if he was working diligently to co-author a book and had scheduled time with Mortenson it would be very frustrating when the guy didn't show.
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The talk about punctuality, made me think of my time in Germany. We visited other countries in Europe by train. My son warned me that Germans are exceptionally punctual. During one trip, we had to change trains, and were a bit late for the connection, so we had to run to get to the next train. I was afraid that I would be left, alone, as I run, anymore. We did manage to get on board before the train took off, but it took me at least an hour to recover from my run.
MAHLIA, my son and his family were in Germany for five years. Both of my grandchildren were required to learn German. Now that they are back in the states, they are taking it again. I had one semester of German in high school. To my surprise I was often able to make myself understood with my limited language skill.
Last night I watched a wonderful program about Afganistan and Pakastan women. It was on PBS, and was called: "The View of a Grain of Sand." I highly reccomend it. The more I see about those two countries, the more I want to know. I would like to visit a Mosque. Yes, I would love to take part in a discussion with women from that part of the world.
Sheila
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Well, Mahlia, that surely answers your question:
I wonder whether after reading about Mortenson's experiences, any of the posters here will be inclined to visit a mosque and take an opportunity to talk with Muslims?
The more I see about those two countries, the more I want to know. I would like to visit a Mosque. Yes, I would love to take part in a discussion with women from that part of the world.
from Sheila
Let us hope that we have opened up a whole new world!
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SHEILA - your comments about having to run to transfer from one train to another made me recall a similar adventure which my son experienced while he and his family were in Europe.
His family was hosting in-laws from Charlotte, NC, who are high-energy tourists and really like to schedule as much "viewing" into one day as possible. On one of those occasions, when my son was traveling in a portable wheelchair (before his knee surgery), he was pushed to the head of a line where many folks were waiting to board a tour boat. The Steward pushed my son forward, welcomed him aboard and disappeared. My son thought that his wife, kids and in-laws were right behind him. But no . . . they were not wheelchair bound, so the Steward refused to let them board with my son. And in fact, there were too many passengers waiting to board the same boat, so the family were told to line up in another que for a second boat. It was some minutes until my son realized that he alone was on the #1 boat, while his family were on the #2, which was headed in a totally different direction. Needless to say, it was a VERY long day: 17 hours later and much haggling, shouting, paying baksheesh to several folks, my son and his family were reunited at their hotel. My grandson's reaction to "almost" losing his father: "Boy, Gram, Dad can REALLY cuss loud!"
Let me encourage you that if indeed you would enjoy visiting a mosque, interacting with the Imam or other staff, don't hesitate to contact one in your area, explaining your purpose for calling. I'm confident you would be most welcome and perhaps have an opportunity to participate in prayers (not unusual, although many folks may not realize that) with the womens' group, learn about other customs or events in that particular mosque and perhaps add your name to announcements for future community events. Just like many houses of worship, most Islamic mosques in the USA tend to interact regularly with their local communities. There may be more restrictions pertaining to non-Muslims in the smaller orthodox mosques, but generally it has been my experience (and that of others who have visited mosques in their areas) that a warm welcome is extended and questions are answered graciously.
Mahlia
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It never ceases to amaze me- even in a far away place we encounter shysters.
This dishonest Changazi is a piece of work isn't he? Mortenson tired of arguing and eating rounds of meals with this guy, insists that he wants his supplies.
This was becoming more and more tedious and he muses while staring at the summit ridges how simple it was to be a climber, just focus on a peak, organize men and suppplies and "go for it." This was another story dealing with the stubborn and solicitous Changazi and he angrily refuses now to speak to Changazi until he takes him to Korphe.
I understand all of these guys though, they all want the same thing. They want their kids of their own poor village to get the school.
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Yeah, we're used to construction sites that bring in materials as they are needed, ALF.
But when you think of gathering up all the supplies and materials you will need
for even a small school, wow! I consider it a minor miracle that the truck even
made it through the mountains on those narrow 'roads'.
I find myself wondering if the sense of time here isn't at least partly
due to the difficulties in travel and the distances. It would seem to be a
case of "I'll be there ____, God willing, and the mountain doesn't move!"
And can you imagine traveling in the days of Isabella Bird? Frankly, I'd
rather be following the river on a horse, than riding a truck on the
mountainside with one wheel off the road!
It seems apparent that Changhazi was hoping to coerce Mortenson into
changing his mind by hiding his supplies and surrounding him with men
constantly arguing and pleading. But he was not a thief, and when GM
stood his ground and refused to have anything further to do with his
manipulations, Changhazi restored the supplies and moved them where
requested.
I was surprised, tho', that it did not occur to Mortenson from the beginning
that the school materials could not be conveyed across that gorge w/o a
bridge.
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Reading and discussing this book offers a wonderful opportunity to learn about differences in cultures, but also to reflect on how we (as individuals within our own locales and experiences) might have responded to Mortenson's challenges. Would we pay baksheesh or perhaps divert some supplies to another village? Would we agree to come back to that other village on a subsequent trip if the current trip (and supplies) are allowed to move forward. And if we agreed, would we REALLY mean it? Keep our word or jut disappear after the current project was completed?
Unfortunately, as we see worldwide, there is ongoing corruption not only on the receiving end (rural villagers, their elders, other clans and tribes) and with major components in the local, regional and national governments of those countries, but also among the agencies offering supplies or funding. I've worked previously in Washington DC long enough, as well as abroad, to have witnessed these unhappy occurrences personally.
But overall Mortenson's plan - his insistence if you will - that his time, efforts and building supplies reach the village he set out for is (to me) a clear indication of a man who has realized in his own lifelong quest and his recognition of his love for family that "one step forward" at a time is the way to go. There is always another day to help others, whether personally or creating donor groups or agencies. The goal here as I understand it is "Make a promise, keep a promise."
Mahlia
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PERSIAN: your story of taking people to visit a Mosque in Washington, DC reminds me there was a beautiful mosque on Massachusetts Avenue in DC. As a young adult, I used to pass it every day, and was fascinated by it. I always wanted to visit it, but had no idea how, or if I would be welcome.
The way Mortinson proceeds in Pakistan is a source of amazement to me. He meets someone casually, and before you can blink your eyes, he has enlisted them into years of dedication to his project. This testifies both to an extrordinary quality in Mortensen, and also to extrordinary qualities in the Pakistanis who share at once his longing for their children to be educated.
Not everyone shares this longing for education. I have seen immegrants to this country make extrordinary sacrifices to get an education for their children. But I have seen others, not necessarily imegrants, who put roadblocks in their children's way, fearing that once educated their children will abandon or look down on their parents.
This is not an empty fear. I have seen that, too.
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Joan - perhaps it was the Islamic Center on Mass. Avenue to which you refer? I used to take many guests there and they were always well received. Indeed, it was a site of many fine meetings, worship services, opportunities to learn about Islam and its adherents, but unfortunately it was also embroiled in arguments between the Saudis (especially the Saudi Ambassador in Washington and the Saudi Royal Family) which forced the Center to bar numerous Muslims of various sects from worship service and oust the long-time (and highly respected) Imam. He in turn promptly set up worship services outside on the lawn. When the Saudis erected a high iron fence to block those services, the Imam held the regular services on the sidewalk. That change blocked traffic, which brought in the D.C. Police and the conflicting issue went on for several years. The building was outstanding in its beauty, but became the focus of discontent between the Islamic sects.
Mahlia
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
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Three Cups of Tea
by
Greg Mortenson & David Oliver Relin
"The first time that you share tea with a Balti, you are a stranger" a villager tells our author. "The second time, you are an honored guest. The third time you become family." ~ Three Cups of Tea
______________ Three Cups of Tea is an inspirational story of one man's efforts to address poverty, educate girls, and overcome cultural divides. This book won the 2007 Kiriyama Prize for nonfiction revealing the enormous obstacles inherent in becoming such "family." ~ Bookmarks Magazine
|
Three Cups of Tea -- Homepage. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/)
Ignorance -- the Real Enemy. (http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=22471)
Synopsis and Biography. (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Three-Cups-of-Tea/Greg-Mortenson/e/9780143038252/?itm=1)
Readers' Guide by the Author. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/wp-includes/documents/3CTReadingGuide.pdf)
K2 Mountain. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2)
| -- | Discussion Schedule - May 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 6
- May 8 - 14 Chapters 7 - 12
- May 15 - 21 Chapters 13 - 18
- May 22 - 31 Chapters 19 - End
|
| . | 1. What made Mortenson particularly ripe for such a transformation? Has anything similar happened in your own life?
2. Is Mortenson someone that you would like to know, work with or have as a neighbor or friend?
3. At the heart of the book is a powerful but simple poliical message: we each as individuals have the power to change the world, one cup of tea at a time, etc. | . |
Discussion Leaders: Andy(ALF43) (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
Yes, Mahlia, the discontent that started between the Sunni and the Shi'tes just after the death of of the Prophet has unfortunately persisted till today and is one source of conflict in the Middle East. The problem with the Saudi, as I understand it, is the extremism of the Wahabi and the peculiar personality of the Prince who served as Ambassador. I think he was recalled at one point or is the proper term "left without portfolio."
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I was in Washington during many of the years when Bandar served as the Saudi Ambassador. Not only was he popular among the diplomatic community, but also with the American govt. He was comfortable moving back and forth between the austere Saudi culture and the contemporary American and European cultures represented in Washington, as well as the more conservative worldwide Islamic cultures (although many not as rigid as Saudi Arabia).
Equally, Bandar was comfortable in the American West, especially at the ski resorts, and in areas where he owned property. He could be enormously diplomatic, but also extremely friendly and jovial in the Western sense, especially with potential business sources who might be interested in establishing a presence in the Middle East. Bandar was popular with the Washington diplomatic and USG crowd, less so with some of the lesser-ranked officials in various embassies. He visited the senior Bush households in New England and Texas on numerous occasions and was always warmly welcomed. Yet it became increasingly clear that his time as a central force in D.C. was coming to an end and he "retired" from his long held position or in another sense was "redeployed" to other (less visible) responsibilities.
Mahlia
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That's beautiful, Mahlia. You should have been a foreign service person.
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I found the description of the patience of the Balti's gave me an insight into
their view of life. They are accustomed to waiting for what they want in life.
A Balti hunter may stalk an ibex for days; a bridegroom may wait years for his
bride; the Baltis had already been waiting decades for the schools the government had promised them. Waiting another year or two for a school, while Mortenson raised money and they built a bridge, was nothing at all.
Can you imagine a Westerner being that patient?
And then, that bit on Mortenson's departure from Korphe with "eleven Korphe men who insisted on seeing him off..." I see two things here. One is an eagerness to participate in anything that breaks the routine and monotony.
The other is the right of the individual man to do as he pleases. If he wants to go, he will go, even if it means a dozen bodies in one jeep,..including Mortenson's quite large one.
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I chuckled as Mortenson finally traveled in that rickety 350 foot cable car suspended on a cable over the gorge, a hundred feet above the Braldu . He describes it saying it was “like a fruit crate held together with a few nails.” Here's a guy who scales enormous mountain tops and jumps crevasses and he feels nervous contemplating the “plunge.” ???
BABI- I quite agree with this:
I was surprised, tho', that it did not occur to Mortenson from the beginning
that the school materials could not be conveyed across that gorge w/o a
bridge.
I think he was just so focused on the task at hand the bridge dilemma never occurred to him. The way that these Korphe men cheerfully worked shifting, lifting and hoisting is a testimony for Mortenson, isn't it?
I love the way that our co-author injected George Schaller, the biologist's trek into our story which led to the amazing documentary The Snow Leopard. He writes
The world's great mountains demand more than mere physical appreciation....mountains become an appetite."
(I love that and it helps me to better see through the eyes of the climber's.
We were once invited to a "dessert party'" when we lived outside of Phoenix. When we trekked through the trails to get to this outing I was in awe! It was one of the most spectacular scenery I have ever witnessed.
There, just above us, we watched long horn sheep climbing these massive cliffs as if they were walking down a highway. It was a glorious, sunny panoramic view and we stood there enjoying not only the breathtaking view but admiring the sure-footedness of the sheep.
I thought of that when DOR wrote of the alpine ibex so revered by the Balti.
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Mahlia, I’m glad you told us about the mosque in DC. I’m sure I’ve passed it many times as Mass Ave is my son’s favorite way to downtown from his home. Next time I’m there I’ll be sure to look for it. When I read your comments about the disagreements with the Saudis and some of the other Muslims my first thought was “other faiths don’t do that.” But of course that isn’t true. How often we hear about groups who break away from their churches in disagreements over scripture or policy or what have you, not to mention differences within denominations. But, for someone who knows so little about Islam it is difficult to understand the core of disagreement among the various sects.
Babi, like you, I’m surprised that GM didn’t consider the bridge in his planning. Surely he remembered how Mouzafer had crossed the Braldu R. in a rickety box attached to a cable. Surely he didn’t think they would carry cement and lumber in that.
Here is the Braldu, without benefit of cable. Does it dry up in summer, I wonder. This doesn't look like water.
Braldu River (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/9492321.jpg)
Here is a bridge at Skardu. Not sure if the one at Korphe will be like this.
A bridge at Skardu (http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/19508229.jpg)
“Mortenson woke at first light. . . .he stepped out into the damp street. . . . . .18,000 ft peaks hidden behind clouds. And without the mountains Skardu … . .. .. seemed unaccountably ugly.”
And he wondered if he’d made it into a mythical kingdom and had invented the Baltistan and it’s people that he believed in. A pretty discouraging moment.
Skardu, not in it's glory (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/12493041.jpg)
Can you picture the roads, the overcrowded vehicles. Korphe is 112 kilometers from Skardu – my math is off a bit, but that’s about 60 miles, thereabouts. And it was an eight- hour trip?
Getting off the main drag (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/406908.jpg)
The Skardu turnoff from the Karakoram Highway. I think Greg would have been near hear on the ride up from Rawalpindi. Click to enlarge the picture, then find that little road (left of the sign) heading west.
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PEDLN - here's a link to the Islamic Center on Mass. Avenue in Washington DC. Look familiar? http://www.theislamiccenter.com/
Rivers in Central Asia like the Braldu, often dry up and leave the impression of an old gorge, which is rocky, but not wet. Then when the snows begin to melt in the Spring and the water comes rushing down those vast mountains, the unassuming gorge (challenging as it may look when its dry) becomes a raging river in a very short time. And if that happens at night, when visibility is unlimited (although the violent sound of the rushing river gives pretty good clues), the dangers to folks in the area are enormous. On the other hand, there are rural mountain villages so separated from any others that inhabitants travel for miles to stock up on river or stream water and transport it many miles back to their homesites.
I've walked along many village streets like the one in the picture you posted. The big challenge is to remain calm, not over-react, and not to "lose one's lunch" in the process . . . at least for a few days until you can assimilate.
Mahlia
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PEDLN, that photo of the river is huge! However did they manage that
photograph, I wonder? But to the subject, the rivers pick up so much
soil they are almost liquid mud thru' much of their length. I understand
the Ganges is a very muddy river. I have to assume the people do
something to that water so they can drink it.
When I clicked on the Skardu bridge link, I got a blank page entitled
403 FORBIDDEN. That makes you wonder, doesn't it? :-\
Another clue to the outlook of the people in this country: "Inshallah."
'Allah willing.' DOR calls it "the only realistic way to answer any question involving transportation in the Northern Areas". Living like this, I would
think people really to learn to leave things in God's hands.
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BABI - Indeed, in the harsher of climates and communities, it is a BIG relief to await God's blesssing (or not) and when there is an answer, some folks tend to accept it with a quietly intoned Mā šāʾ Allāh , which means "God has willed it." The answer has been given. Others, of course, may become hysterical, screaming, tearing their hair and skin, acting absolutely "out of bounds" according to Western customs.
Many years ago, I knew a wonderful Egyptian family in Maryland, who happened to live only a few houses from a dear friend and former colleague of mine. When my colleague's father died in her house of a sudden heart attack, she of course called for an ambulance. When the Egyptian neighbors saw the ambulance arrive, they ran to my friend's home to see what had happened and if they could help. By the time my friend called me a few minutes later and I also ran to her house, the Egyptian women were screaming at the top of their lungs in the driveway, creating all kinds of emotional havoc. My friend was standing near the door of the ambulance and pleaded with me "PLEASE make them stop screaming!!" First I tried talking to the Egyptian women, then embracing them and then . . . with a prayer in mind . . . I slapped all three on the cheeks - not a light tap, but very hard. They instantly became silent and then I began the prayers, and the women joined in. When I glanced at the ambulance driver and raised my eyebrows in question at him, he nodded and quietly said "the gentleman has passed."
We then turned to the prayers which are said for the departed during the first few minutes after death. All this was in the driveway of my friend's home. As the ambulance drove away, we all embraced my friend, the Egyptian women returned to their home, and my friend and I followed the ambulance in my car on "a journey of love." And - we still talk about this today - we stayed up all night in a 24 hour coffee shop, writing and rewriting the funeral service for her father.
On a happier topic - A WONDERFUL HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY TO ALL MOMS AND GRANDMOMS AND GREAT-GRANDMOMS!
Mahlia
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Mahlia, thanks for the link to the Islamic center. I see it was dedicated in 1957. It must have been soon after that that Bob and I went to see it. I was lucky enough to run into an acquaintance, and he graciously showed us everything that was open to us. It was a long time ago and I don't remember details, but I do remember how impressed I was with the beauty of it.
You can see in some of the pictures on the site that the main building behind the facade is not lined up with the street. It's even clearer on Google maps. Put in the address, 2551 Massachusetts Ave, NW, Washington, DC, 20008, and look at the satellite view. The main building points sort of northeast, which surprised me, because I think of Mecca as being east and just a bit south, but I worked out the great circle route on my globe, and indeed, as the crow flies, Mecca is northeast of here.
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Oops, I said northwest when I meant northeast--now corrected.
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Pedln, thanks for those links. They add a lot. One picture really is worth a thousand words.
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Babi, I don’t know why you couldn’t get the bridge picture to open. (It works for me)
The soon to be built Korphe Bridge is almost a symbol of the price of progress, perhaps a symbol of contrasts and conflicts. It will open up many doors, but what else will it bring. Will it bring all the things negative from Skardu and Askole? Will there be expeditions starting from Korphe, leaving all their human waste? Or will it mean better medical care, better education, better access to the rest of the world?
While trekking through rain and mud up to Korphe, Greg thought much about Norberg-Hodge’s book that reflected much of what he was thinking. Isn’t preserving a way of life among happy people more important than improving their life? Yes? No? My question would be, “ who are you going to let decide?”
Are you finding the moral standards interesting? Compare that rogue Changazi with Haji Ali’s son Twaha, who seems like a sweet guy. (Guess I need new classes, I was reading handhok as handbook and thought the man had a list of available widows.) :-\
But troubled as Mortenson was, he knew what his priority goal was, and so did the elders of Korphe. Were y ou surprised to find that they had already cut the rocks from nearby hillsides rather than having to have them brought in? And now every able-bodied man in Korphe was carrying coil – except for Mortenson, who was too tall. Too much tilt.
Mahlia, what a touching experience with your friend. You knew exactly what to do, but I imagine that many would be afraid to slap someone in that situation.
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PEDLN - Reading your comment about GM being "too tall with too much tilt" reminded me of what I thought was a large moving brush shrub while I was in a rural area of China many years ago. I watched the movement for a few minutes and finally called one of my students to ask "what's making that move?" The student started laughing out loud and called two other students to come and look. They also broke into laughter, while one of them approached the moving object, called out something and stood back while the shrub stopped - "tilted" upwards - and a tiny woman appeared. She glanced at the student who stood nearby, then saw the others with me in the middle. She looked at me for a couple of seconds, then bent forward again and resumed her step-by-step journey of carrying what I later found out from the students was enough brush for her hearth for one day. The woman traveled a great distance EACH DAY to hunt for brush to heat her home, cook her food and warm her tea!
Mahlia
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"..thought the man had a list of available widows."
Thanks for the grin, Pedlin.
“..who are you going to let decide?”
I think you've touched on something very important here, PEDLIN. It is all too easy for those who want to be benefactors, to think that they are the ones to decide what people should have. Decisions made for others 'for their own good' are so arrogant, aren't they?
Some more barriers are being dropped. Haji Ali's wife, Sakina, actually took
Mortenson's hand, the first time a Balti woman had ever touched him. And he, in a similar gesture, crossed over the 'threshold' into her kitchen, an area that
men stayed out of. Jahan reports that Sakina was shocked that Greg went into her kitchen, but "she already thought of him as her own child, so she accepted it. Soon, her ideas changed, and she begin to tease my grandfather
that he should learn how to be more helpful like his American son."
Ah, the dangerous power of new ideas!
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I just keep reading -the whole concept is almost unbelievable So many are willing to take a chance to see the children have a school and education Doing a good deed is always special but the requirements and the courage in this book seems impossible and to make it happen certainly requires faith and bravery far beyond most///I am with everyone in the story and while M seems to face it with equanimity I am breathless I know it will turn out well but you have to think how much human endurance is being tried ....
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The pictures are wonderful. The river reminds me of the waddis I saw in Israel and the American Southwest. I guess it is the same in all dry climates. During the dry season, they dry up, and then when the snows melt: whoosh with very little warning. Tragically, someone seems to get killed almost every year, often children who have wandered out to play. I remember first going over a bridge over the Rio Grande and wondering why it was 10 times as wide as the river. That Spring, I understood.
The picture of the Mosque does not do justice to it's beauty, IMO. How tragic that it became the seat of such dissention. If you are surprised at such dissention in a religion, read about the middle ages in Europe. For centuries, people were killed for worshipping at the wrong Christian Church.
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Bless all of you and please do not think that I am ignoring any of your posts!
I have run into a dilemma today and have been unable to respond to your insightful thoughts.
I have one thing to say before I adrdess the inherent problems of exchanging one value for another as has been posited- and that is to quote GM:
"the true maeasure of a nation's scuccess is not gross nations product, but "gross national happiness."
...."Mortenson felt sure that despite all that they lacked, the Balti stiill held the key to a kind of uncomplicated happiness that was disappearing in the developing world as fast as old growth forests."
Everything, absolutely everything is a trade off for something else. Some one once told me that was true and that when it came to $, it was equally the same-- it is only a means for an exchange.
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Here's a link to an excellent article I just read in the June issue of the Good Housekeeping magazine, entitled "Teach a Girl, Save the World" by Judith Stone regarding Mortenson's efforts in Central Asia and how his own children - 12 year old daughter, Amira and 8 year old son, Khyber have joined him in helping to build schools and continue the Pennies for Peace Program. Amira has traveled with her parents to Central Asia, joins her Dad at speaking engagements, and encourages youngsters and youth to participate. It is an amazing story of family love, affection, encouragement and a great outreach by multiple generations to help others in an area of the world Not well-known in the West.
http://www.threecupsoftea.com/2009/05/05/goodhousekeeping-may-05-09/
In the hard copy of the article in the June edition, there is a note about Mortenson's forthcoming book, Stones Into Schools (scheduled for publication in December 2009). This might be a follow-up selection for this discussion in 2010.
The link below is a slide show of the Mortenson family:
http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/family/real/pennies-for-peace
Mahlia
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Mahlia- wow, what a find you presented here for us.
That slide show is overwhelming. Thank you. I will attempt :D to put that url above in our heading so that we can reference it as we progress.
What a beautiful family Mortenson has and how blessed he is to have their undying faith and assistance?
Says Greg, "I'm very serious; my kids have taught me to see life as a child, and to have joy — that there's fun and beauty in little things. I consult with my daughter whenever I can."
We all can learn from the heart of a child.
What did everyone think about Greg's unlikely meeting on a trail with George McCown, another treker and an American sponser of another expedition? That was a treasured moment for both of the gentlemen and I cracked up over McCown assuming the role of the "big shot" from America. ::)
He became "one of Mortenson's most powerful advocates."
Back in the states he offered Greg 20 grand for himself, to live on. I wish that I could impress someone to that extent.
What a diplomate this Mortenson turns out to be insisting that Korphe's chief lay the last plank for the bridge.
The completion of a swaying 284 foot span, with neat concrete arches on either end, the sturdy three-tiered stone foundation and the webwork of cables that anchored it all together.
What an awe-inspiring accomplishment for eveyone in attendance and our very first Korphe school teacher was chosen.
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I was so pleased when Greg finally find the woman he wanted to marry, and
was delighted to find MAHLIA's link showing us his family now. What a terrific
example these kids have in setting their own goals for life. I also had a smile for the wry comment from Tara's mother, "Well, you're thirty-one and you've kissed a lot of toads. If you think he's your prince, then I'm sure he is."
ALF, I also had a 'Yeah!' for the quote from Norberg-Hodge that says the
true measure of a nation's success ought to be "gross national happiness".
I suspect we would not far quite so well with that measure.
Another aspect of a difficult life in this mountainous country. "I've seen men in the groom's family literally trying to pry the bride and her mother apart with all their strength, while the women scream and wail. If a bride leaves an isolated village like Korphe, she knows she may never see her family again." I remembered that later when DOR spoke of the bridge enabling
the women of Korphe to see their families again on a regular basis. The use of the now 'in' phrase 'empower women' seemed odd, tho', to me. The
bridge made their life easier and happier. Is that empowerment?
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I don't know Babi. Empowerment means to enable or entitle. Semantics, would be the problem here, I think.
It would give them the privilege or advantage to cross over the bridge and sanction their visitation wouldn't it?
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In this context, I think of empowerment as encouraging the women to be more positive in their lives as they move ahead from day to day, remembering that they now have the physical means to "bridge" the distance between their birth families and their marital ones. The isolation of NOT having any means to visit birth families after marriage is a horrendous thought.
I recall that my husband has spoken many times of the regular visits his Mother made to her family in Egypt and how they struggled without her, missing her every day, and his Father wandering from room to room, counting the days (perhaps the hours) until she returned . She was always refreshed, happy, full of love for her husband, sons and daughters, BUT insistent that she "needed" the visits with her birth family and "of course she still loved them, you naughty little boys and girls." That last comment sent everyone into peals of laughter!
Mahlia
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Mahlia, thanks for the link to that excellent article. I was especially heartened to learn that almost none of the schools have been destroyed. The villagers worked so hard to get them that they defended them fiercely. That reinforces what everyone has been saying about the importance of giving people what they know they want rather than what you think they should have,
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Mahlia, a wonderful article and slide show. And I hope to have a chance to read many of the other articles about Mortenson listed under each year in the sidebar. That whole link is a real treaure trove.
Greg makes a good point when he explains why the CAI schools were not damaged -- they were schools that involved the whole community -- planned by them, built by them. As was pointed out in the first section of the book, Greg was invited, almost manipulated into building schools in two other villages before he even got back to Korphe.
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Funny, isn't it, how Greg was wondering what to do re. a career once the Korphe school was finished. It didn't seem to occur to him that he had found his career already, until it was pointed out to him. And, of course, a way of making a living while doing it was found.
Thanks for the replies about 'empowerment'. I guess I think of it as having power in one's own hands. But having the 'power' to visit family at will is a form of it, I suppose.
I am bewildered by the warfare between Sunni and Shia followers, both of
whom are Muslims. But then, I am equally horrified by the hostilities that existed between Catholics and Protestants, both of whom are Christians.
One can become so discouraged at times over the behavior of people. Shucks, even God gets fed up from time to time.
Then I read a statement like the one by Mouzafer, and I am encouraged
again. "I am poor, and can only offer him my prayer. Also the strength of my back. This I gladly give so he could build his school."
Did you notice, that in the photograph of Haji Ali he is wearing the brown lambswool 'topi'. It was his way of identifying who he was in the village, and he only wore it when he was functioning in that position. He strikes me as a simple and wise man, and one of integrity. I found it hard to understand why he gave in to that bullying Haji from a neighboring village, who came trying to tell them what they could and could not do in their own village, and demanding
a bribe of their precious rams. I suppose Haji Ali felt a fight between his people and the crew of toughs bearing clubs could only end badly, but it really goes against the grain with me to give in to bullies. An example, no doubt, of when wisdom is better than pride.
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I am with you on your assessment of HHaji Ali, Babi.
He strikes me as a simple and wise man, and one of integrity.
He was the nurmadhar, the chief, of Korphe that first escorted Mortenson through the gate with great hospitality. He is a wise man, as all chiefs must be, and he showed such kindness, didn't he? His features are so strong in that picture that you mentioned. He stands proud and imposing.
Babi you mentioned:
Funny, isn't it, how Greg was wondering what to do re. a career once the Korphe school was finished. It didn't seem to occur to him that he had found his career already, until it was pointed out to him. And, of course, a way of making a living while doing it was found.
Is it possible that when Greg witnessed one of his own personal heroes speak, the decision was then made? He was enthralled listening to the 75 year old Sir Edmund Hillary, or "Ed from the Edge" as he called himself. At this point in time he met Tara as Hillary said.
"I have enjoyed great satisfaction from my climb to Everest. But my most worthwhile things have been the building of schools and medical clinics. That has given me more satisfaction than a footprint on a mountain."
That was like an epiphany to me- AHA! With Tara's head practically on his shoulder and his hero making that remark, I felt that sub consciously his mind was made up.
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I found it hard to understand why he gave in to that bullying Haji from a neighboring village, who came trying to tell them what they could and could not do in their own village, and demanding
a bribe of their precious rams. I suppose Haji Ali felt a fight between his people and the crew of toughs bearing clubs could only end badly, but it really goes against the grain with me to give in to bullies. An example, no doubt, of when wisdom is better than pride.
Haji Mehdi sounds like the equivalent of the local Mafia boss. I imagine that Haji Ali knew perfectly that Mehdi had the power to enforce his demands.It's really frustrating, though.
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I wondered about that too, Babi and Pat, and I think Pat’s assessment is probably correct. From what I understand, Askole is also probably a bigger town than Korphe, and that may be why this thug thinks he’s the more powerful person. It sounds like he and his henchmen have managed to control all the small villages in the Braldu River valley. And now, of course, the bridge has made it easier for these people to up their demands.
I wondered if these demands had been made for years. Did the porters like Mouzafer have to pay a percentage of their earnings. We're learning, but what little we know of the life of these people. Hard, hard, hard.
Askole or Askoly is a small town located in the Braldu Valley in the most remote region of Karakoram mountains in Northern Areas, Pakistan. It is the last settlement before the wilderness of the Karakoram. Askole is the gateway to four of the world's fourteen highest peaks known as Eight-thousanders (above 8,000m). Askole is located at 35°41′N 75°49'E.[1]
Expeditions to the following peaks are launched from Askole:
• K2, 2nd highest of the world at 8611m
• Gasherbrum I, 11th highest of the world at 8,080m.
• Broad Peak, 12th highest of the world at 8,047m.
• Gasherbrum II, 13th highest of the world at 8,035m.
(Wikipedia)
I was hoping to find a picture of the town, but no luck. I guess most of the trekkers with cameras want only the mountain scenery, but this is near Askole.
Near Askole (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/4171368.jpg)
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A suggestion (in the style of Hajii Ali). Think of him giving his topi to Haji Mehdi in the Afghan cultural manner - "I surrender to your wisdom," while thinking to himself ". . . at the moment)." Which means - again in the Afghan manner - that "at the moment" is the key. He could just as easily have bestowed his topi as a gesture (which was expected of him by Mehdi) and then whirled around and slit Haji Mehdi's throat on the spot. The latter would also have been a recognized part of Afghan culture, meaning that a disgraceful demand had been put forth and accepted by Haji Ali (at the moment), but now the disgrace has been avenged.
Although GM writes of the hospitality and wonderful care he received, there is also the more horrific cultural behavior among many clans throughout the region. And the papragraph above is only ONE example of very common and acceptable behavior when a Leader (especially one held in great respect by his clansmen) has been disgraced - thus meaning that his entire clan and often the entire tribe has also been insulted.
Three Cups of Tea is a wonderful look at a region of the world and some of the people who live there, but that region is overall extremely harsh in many ways, which is not to say that we cannot learn, understand and appreciate the positive aspects of GM's initial experiences. He met wonderful people with whom he has developed a loving/respectful relationship and shared that with his own family. That's what I really enjoy, while keeping in mind the reality of the region and its customs.
Mahlia
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Good point, Mahlia. We have read so much of the kindliness and hospitality of the Balti, it is easy to forget the harsh side of their culture. Where survival is so
'close-to-the-bone', it would be foolish of not to expect that kind of toughness.
Now to consider a few shortcomings of our own. Mortenson points out that
"Our leaders thought their 'shock and awe' campaign could end the war in Iraq before it even started." We've got our own brand of bullying, haven't we? Not as smart as we thought we were, either.
I keep learning. I did not realize that the Taliban that invaded Afghanistan were primarily teenagers, fresh from the madrassas. When I think of teenagers, I think energy, idealism, ardor...and poor judgment. I am also learning more and more of the responsibility of European and Western powers for the mess in the Middle East. "...the region..was... bands of tribal powers, shunted into states created arbitrarily by Europeans, states that took little account of each tribe's primal alliance to it's own people."
We do seem to have an historical tendency to jump in, make a quick fix that suits our own priorities, and head back home ASAP.
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BABI - Excellent point! The more I read and refresh my own memories about the cultural tribal and clan customs of Central Asia, the more I think back to the devastation of the Native American tribes in the 18th and 19th centuries by Europeans, Americans and some renegade Native Americans. I've been watching the superb PBS programs featuring the segments on the original Cherokee Nation in the Carolinas, many of whose members were forced to relocate to the Western USA (an unknown area to them at the time). I recall my deep interest in the Apache Chief Cochise, who was featured, along with Geronimo and others in one of the recent PBS segments.
What we have witnessed in recent years in Central Asia (especially among the ultra traditional residents, their clan and tribal elders) is so reminiscent of the battles fought with the Native Americans to usurp their lands and force their people into a European/American way of life totally alien to them. I've talked about this topic many times with former colleagues in Washington - several of whom are Native Americans and two of whom are highly respected elders in their tribes. Several REALLY interesting conversations I recall included these two elders AND several Afghans, who lived and worked in Washington DC.
Historically, the insistence of one culture and its people (i.e. Americans and European allies in this case) that another extremely different group (Central Asians) accept their customs at face value is continuous throughout history. (Think of the Greeks and Romans; the Persians and Medes; the Mongols bursting out of Asia.) There simply are regions of the world which are NOT prepared to understand, accept and change their lifestyles and ancient customs according to contemporary Western beliefs. Yet that insistence is NOT always directed towards people extremely different from Western cultural norms. Here I think of the Nazi insistence in Europe; and the KKK in the USA.
In GM's situation, where he took the time and patience to understand the local community AND offered his help to build a school - simple idea, yet enormously helpful to the locals - is a clear example of "one step at a time," which often is successful, where force is not.
Another recent manifestation of the tremendously harsh side of the Taliban towards females and their absolute insistence that villagers cease and desist from interacting with Westerners (even when they offer assistance, food, education, school supplies, medical treatment and supplies) is the recent news reports about several small schools whose female students have been poisoned over the past several weeks. I've read two articles recently, explaining that the youngsters (all of whom were students in local schools built for them by "foreigners") had suffered various stages of poisoning. In one article, the attack was thought to be the result of wide-spread spraying by Taliban of the school building and surrounding grounds where the school was located. The other article mentioned "direct spraying" of poisonous gas into small classrooms, resulting in groups of female youngsters becoming violently ill within minutes and needing hospitalization.
Mahlia
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Wow! Poisoning schoolchildren is about as low as you can get.
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Our next chapter starting tomorrow opens up the conversation regarding the Taliban, one of the mujahiddeen (holy warriors or "freedom fighters" ) groups that formed during the war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan (1979-89.)
They present themselves as a reform movement and have been criticized by Islamic scholars as being poorly educated in Islamic law and history—even in Islamic radicalism, which has a long history of scholarly writing and debate. Their implementation of Islamic law seems to be a combination of Wahhabi orthodoxy (i.e., banning of musical instruments) and tribal custom (i.e., the all-covering birka made mandatory for all Afghan women).
While Mortenson was in neighboring Peshaway check it out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pakistan_location_map.svg,)
Bin Laden led the movement against the US.
When the Taliban took Kabul, they immediately forbade girls to go to school. Moreover, women were barred from working outside the home, precipitating a crisis in healthcare and education. Women were also prohibited from leaving their home without a male relative—those that did so risked being beaten, even shot, by officers of the "ministry for the protection of virtue and prevention of vice." A woman caught wearing fingernail polish may have had her fingertips chopped off. All this, according to the Taliban, was to safeguard women and their honor.
from infoplease.com
I am interested in this particular aspect of the Taliban. Why in contrast to their strict beliefs, the Taliban profited from smuggling operations (primarily electronics) and opium cultivation. Eventually, they bowed to international pressure and cracked down on cultivation and by July 2000 were able to claim that they had cut world opium production by two-thirds. Unfortunately, the crackdown on opium also abruptly deprived thousands of Afghans of their only source of income.
Also, I was surprised to learn that most of the Taliban leaders were educated and trained in Pakistan
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JoanK asked me to tell you that her computer is totally nonfunctional, so you won't see her until she can find out what's wrong.
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One somewhat remarkable part of Mortenson's life is that he and Tara Bishop found each other. They are so perfectly suited, and it's so unlikely for them to meet. Just as his life prepared him for this work, her life prepared her to be enthusiastic about it and tolerate the sacrifices involved. Not many people could take that sort of life. I'm glad to get an update on their family life from that interesting Good Housekeeping article.
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I'm off to Pasadena tomorrow morning. I'll have 6 hours on the plane to read the next section.
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I wish I had known about the program on the Cherokees. I have some Cherokee ancestry, and have always been fascinated by all the native American cultures. I can well imagine that some of their elders and the Afghans would find plenty to talk about.
It's only natural, I suppose, for those who are currently predominant in the
world to feel that this means their culture, technology, form of government, etc., is superior. (Perhaps that is one reason I enjoy reading fantasy novels, where all that has changed. Dreamland. ::))
Also, I was surprised to learn that most of the Taliban leaders were educated and trained in Pakistan
They were educated in madrassas school, ALF, which teach this very
radical form of Islam. I don't know how much 'training' they got, but they
were surprisingly well armed. And as I said before, they were mostly teen-agers
with the terrifying combination of passionate enthusiasm and poor
judgment typical of that age. Putting that kind of power in their hands and
ideas in their minds created monsters.
PAT, I hope Joan's computer is working soon, or you will both be 'cut off'.
Good luck to both of you.
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I'm back, at least temporarily. I was fascinated and appalled by the section where greg travels into Taliban country. An area that no one has ever succeeded in conquering: Alexander the Great told his army to simply avoid it. Is this the same "Swat Valley" where the Pakistan government is fighting the Taliban?
One thing stands out. When I look at discussions of Pakistan on the TV, they talk a lotabout the Pakistan government. But in Mortinsen's account, the government seems almost irrelevant: it is the tribal and religious leaders who count. I think we are trying to deal according to our Western notions of "Nation" in an area where this idea has limited meaning. We forget how long it took in the West for the idea of nation to supplant that of tribe.
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Wonderful posts, everybody! I'm enjoying lurking and learning, as always on SN/SL/S and Fs. What a fabulous gift these sites have been to us. Thank you to all of you who got them going and keep them going.
We're off to the Jersey Shore for 8 days, i'll have a lot of great catching up to do when i get back.................no internet connection there.............jean
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/3cupstea/3cupsofteacvr.jpg) |
Three Cups of Tea
by
Greg Mortenson & David Oliver Relin
"The first time that you share tea with a Balti, you are a stranger" a villager tells our author. "The second time, you are an honored guest. The third time you become family." ~ Three Cups of Tea
______________ Three Cups of Tea is an inspirational story of one man's efforts to address poverty, educate girls, and overcome cultural divides. This book won the 2007 Kiriyama Prize for nonfiction revealing the enormous obstacles inherent in becoming such "family." ~ Bookmarks Magazine
|
Three Cups of Tea -- Homepage. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/)
Ignorance -- the Real Enemy. (http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=22471)
Synopsis and Biography. (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Three-Cups-of-Tea/Greg-Mortenson/e/9780143038252/?itm=1)
Readers' Guide by the Author. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/wp-includes/documents/3CTReadingGuide.pdf)
K2 Mountain. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2)
| -- | Discussion Schedule - May 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 6
- May 8 - 14 Chapters 7 - 12
- May 15 - 21 Chapters 13 - 18
- May 22 - 31 Chapters 19 - End
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| . | 1. What made Mortenson particularly ripe for such a transformation? Has anything similar happened in your own life?
2. Is Mortenson someone that you would like to know, work with or have as a neighbor or friend?
3. At the heart of the book is a powerful but simple poliical message: we each as individuals have the power to change the world, one cup of tea at a time, etc. | . |
Discussion Leaders: Andy(ALF43) (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
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Joan, we’re glad you’re fixed up and back in action. I don’t think the area (Waziristan) is the same as the Swat Valley, but close. The area where Greg went from Peshawar is south from Peshawar and west of Islamabad. There may be some overlap.
Good point about the tribal governments vs. the National Govt. It certainly makes us realize how little WE know about the governing of countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan. (And what is the meaning of “stan”?)
a house in the Waziristan area (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/15145629.jpg)
It is so ironic that Greg’s only reading material during his eight day ordeal was the old Time magazine with the Iran Hostage story. My guess is that it had significance for these people and that was why it was kept. That was a very strange week. The Good Housekeeping article says Greg befriended his captors. I’m not sure that’s the word I would use. Befriended how? By pretending to read the Koran, by telling about the upcoming birth of his child, by being calm and cool? One can’t help but wonder why they chose to release him.
And what about the soccer game? Was it to impress him? They practically made him the guest of honor>
A very interesting chapter, indeed.
This is a story found while exploring the Peshawar/Waziristan area of Google earth. A human interest story that tells us more about the people of the area.
The Girl in the Photo (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2002/04/afghan-girl/index-text?source=ge-asia)
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"Education," it is said, is the light in the eye. There is no such light for her. It is possibly too late for her 13-year-old daughter as well, Sharbat Gula said." (Pedln's link to the girl in the photo - National Geographic)
Can we even begin to understand - really understand - the life of Khanom Sharbat? As a young Pashtuni, later as a new bride, and soon thereafter as the mother of several daughters, living separated from her husband for many months of the year. The enormous challenges she faced may seem insurmountable to Westerners, but they are common - oh, so very common - to the rural people of Central Asia. Their strengths in many of life's challenges must certainly come from their heart-felt beliefs - "she rises before dawn to pray." Their moments of pleasure, comfort and safety are often few and far between, considering the generations of invasions by foreigners into their homelands and desperate poverty - "he (Khanom Sharbat's husband) earns a dollar a day."
Yet this is a woman who hopes her daughters will have an opportunity for education. She has given up hoping that for herself and perhaps for her teenagers, but there is always hope for the others.
Thanks for the links, PEDLN. To answer your question, "stan" refers to an ancient Persian (Farsi) word, which means "homeland of." So in the context of Afghanistan, it refers to the "homeland of the Afghans." And to be more precise about tribal affiliation, a native would identify themselves as a Pashtun (also spelled Pushtoon occasionally), usually from the North. The Hazaras (easily recognized by their Asian slanted eyes) are from the South, but reside throughout the country. I've never met a Pashtun (male or female) who didn't have the piercing eyes similar to Khanom Sharbat's. When they smile, their eyes are marvelously friendly; when they are upset, they are fierce!
Last night, as I watched Bill Moyers' program "The Journal" on PBS, I thought about how much we don't understand about the breadth of issues involved with Afghanistan and Pakistan. His guests spoke from personal experience about what Washington and Westerners in general, as well as Russians and other country leaders who have tried to interact with the Central Asian countries do not understand - historically, culturally, politically - especially about the vast ungoverned area between the two countries. Here's a link to the program:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/
Mahlia
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I think we are trying to deal according to our Western notions of "Nation" in an area where this idea has limited meaning.
I think you are 100% correct, JoanK. Relin, and Mahlia, have made it clear that these 'nations' are basically a hodgepodge of tribal peoples. They think of themselves primarily as members of a tribe, not citizens of a nation.
Hint, hint. Greg Mortenson is ‘very different’ from other Europeans. “He made no demands for good food and environment, He ate whatever my mother put before him and slept together with us in the smoke like a Balti..” These were considered ‘excellent manners’. Moreover, Dr. Greg ‘never tells a lie’. The stress on this makes me wonder. Does it emphasize the importance of telling the truth, or reveal a surprise at meeting someone who doesn't lie? :-\
More excellent advice from Haji Ali. One would think it obvious, yet apparently, those desiring to benefit others seldom think of it. He proposed quite simply that Mortenson leave the selection of school sites to the Baltis. Their elders could meet with the elders of the other villages and see which ones were prepared to donate land for a school and labor to help build one. They could do with one meeting what would take Mortenson months of travel, tea drinking and discussion to accomplish.
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BABI - excellent point about leaving decisions to the elders of various clans. Less time consuming, a more comfortable and easily understood gathering and one in which decisions can be made by the people (the elders) who are accustomed to making them. Whereas in the West, we are accustomed to the logistical coordination (or lack thereof) of creating a Board, then sub-divisions among the Board members, then advisory committees to work with the former and present their information for the top representatives (the Board), the villagers and their neighboring elders would find this Western system ridiculous, too time consuming, and wasteful. (Think of the recent blow-up of the United Way top leadership and the enormous decrease in contributions of time and treasure that resulted.)
My sense of GM from the book and several articles I've read about him, as well as a couple of TV interviews in recent years, is that he is by nature a fairly calm guy, but can become intense when he is truly interested in a project. I'm grateful for fellows like GM, especially for their efforts in regions like Central Asia, especially where he's learned to "go-with-the-flow" of native customs - especially in respecting the elders - while at the same time "working the lines" in the West to provide funding and supplies to accomplish his goals.
My son's family has been reading this book - the grand kids also read "Listen to the Wind" - and have gotten some positive response from their new friends in the USA about contributing to Mortenson's efforts. I'm going to follow up tomorrow at a local church where I attend Adult SS, as we recognize the contributions of Veterans and active duty military personnel for Armed Forces Day (today).
Mahlia
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The May 25th issue of Time Magazine has an article on How Pakistan Failed Itself, "beset by feckless leadership and a muddled sense of identity, the country is now plunging into chaos. Why a culture of blame is helping the extremists win."
An interesting thought which I had never considered is their resentment toward the United States and their belief that we are fueled by political motives. We are blamed for the militants being in the tribal areas and believe if they stopped supporting the Americans in Afghanistan they would automatically be granted peace.
You can't really blame them because of our support of Musharraf and our rapid withdrawal in Afghanistan after the Soviet war. It left Pakistan in chaos. Babi- where are the elders now? Do you think they are in hiding? As Mahlia asks "Can we ever begin to understand?"
As in any war, the facts can be weighed for either side of the argument.
Fortunately Mortenson was well loved for his efforts.
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At the same time that we in the West are trying to better understand the tribal areas of Central Asia, we must also remember - REALLY remember - that Afghanistan and Pakistan are quite different countries.
For example, Pakistan has a substantial population of well educated (university level) women, many of whom are in the Government Service or have chosen careers as attorneys, doctors, scientists, bankers, etc. In their own right as a result of their own intelligence, education and employment efforts, they are well-to-do financially. This is NOT the case in Afghanistan! This point of understanding was made abundantly clear in last night's Bill Moyers program "The Journal" in which the guests spoke specifically about the West NOT understanding the cultural differences between Afghanistan and Pakistan. The lack of understanding, according to the speakers, reaches from the White House and Pentagon all the way down to the newest U.S. Army recruit serving as part of the American "boots on the ground."
The late Benazir Bhutto was from a family who had multigenerational substantial interests in developing the country (and the financial means to contribute to that goal). Women's intelligence was respected, encouraged and developed. Thus, it was natural for her to seek public office after her father died. The same type of family encouragement was the basis of the late Indira Ghandi's efforts in India.
It's also interesting to note that for GM, his focus was on building a school (and later multiple schools), while at the same time utilizing his calm manner and seemingly disinterest in his own personal comfort - how many of us have slept in an enclosed space with strangers quite different from ourselves in culture and language in the midst of smoke from cooking fires? Raise your hands!
I like to think that GM is a stellar example of what CAN take place to help others less fortunate at the same that government officials (ours and theirs) are fighting with each other, accusing each other and demanding a hearing about who knew what/when about water boarding. He and his family are my kind of folks!
Mahlia
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This vignette really sums up Greg Mortenson, doesn’t it? There is a big celebration on the opening of Korphe’s school, and everyone of importance, including the visiting dignitaries who had nothing to do with it, make long speeches. All except Mortenson, who happily stands in the background bouncing a baby. There does not seem to be a shred of self-aggrandizement in this man.
Parvi, in testifying to Mortenson’s respectability, said he would never “Eve-tease’ any of the girls. I assume ‘Eve’ here refers to the first Eve, but is meant by ‘Eve-tease’ , I wonder? MAHLIA, can you answer that one for me?
The Red Velvet Box, with the endorsement of the highest religious council in the country, addressing Mortenson as “Dear Compassionate of the Poor”. What a wonderful accolade. I would think the addressee would treasure that document all his life.
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BABI - in the colloquial, it refers to boys or young men sexually harassing girls in a verbal manner either when they see them going about their regular chores or perhaps walking along a pathway or - perhaps - if the males are being really aggressive, as the girls are accompanied only by another girl or woman, NOT a male member of their own family.
Mahlia
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Can you imagine how proud Mortenson's mother and wife felt experiencing the entourage of dignitaries who were there for the opening day?
How sad that Jean Hoerni wasn't able to make this day but was there in spirit as they honored his ashes.
Is that true what was written in Red Velvet Box that "the Holy Koran tells us all children should receive education, including our daughters and sisters?"
That shocks me.
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Why does it shock you? We all know from personal experience that different people interpret the Bible in different ways. Why shouldn't that be true of the Koran as well?
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It shocks me that that is their written word about educating the children and that is what they do NOT do.
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OOPS I just hit undo ..didnt know there was such a place on my keyboard I was saying I really enjoy reading the posts ..it helps to give insight to what we are all reading...it seems like for every step forward Mortenson takes forward he has to take two back....to me it shows him as a very uniqiue person ...I feel for him and all those who are hoping to build that school ...I may have mentioned this before but I wrote a poem to parents once that asked them to arm thier chidren with knowledge ...and I also wrote a poem about Afghan women ...
When I think of the freedom I had as a child and as an adult and even now I feel real sadness for the generations of women who had none..back to my reading...
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Before I say anything about the book, I'm sorry to say that JoanK's computer is acting up again, and she doesn't know when she'll be back online. At the moment, I'm staying in Pasadena with daughter Suzi, SIL Matt, and new grandson Matt, a very wired household, but if Matt hasn't managed to get her back online by the time I move to Joan's in Torrance, I'll be offline too. To be continued.
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PAT - how about suggesting to Joan that she drop in at her neighborhood Library to check in with this discussion occasionally from the public computers there? That might help to keep her (and you once you arrive in Torrance) in touch with the discussion. I used to live in the area as a teenager - Downey, CA, actually, so when I read the word Torrance, I had to smile.
ALF - Here is a link that will give you some information about educating women in the early years of Islam, especially as it pertained to the wives of the Prophet Muhammad and how important they were in their communities, in business and education endeavors.
http://www.helpinghandsworldwide.com/WomenEmpowerment-1.aspx.htm
As you mentioned that you were "shocked" about the lack of education for females, may I mention that there are numerous Muslimas world-wide who ARE educated, just as there are numerous ones who are not. Family traditions (and the literacy of the parents and their home communities, residents, and overall cultural beliefs, NOT just religion) play a major role in the educational factor. The same would be true almost anywhere int he world, even in the USA. (Think Appalachia!)
Although GM's book focuses on the Northern rural areas of great poverty and illiteracy, we must remember that in Pakistan particularly (less so in Afghanistan), there is a substantial, well-to-do urban middle-class population, which includes numerous educated and professionally successful women. Many of these women work hard to bring about a better education and life-style to the rural communities.
FAIRANNA - any chance you could post the poem you wrote about Afghan women here so that we could enjoy it with you?
Mahlia
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Pedlin, thanks for the article about the Pashtun woman on the National Geographic cover. I saw the picture at the time, and indeed, it haunted me, and I have thought of it a few times since.
Good idea, Mahlia, Joan's Library is miniscule, but I bet they have at least one computer. She is quite close to the epicenter of tonight's magnitude 5.0 earthquake, but is unhurt. Things shook a lot, though.
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Mortenson's nursing training certainly stood him in good stead in winning the confidence of the villagers, but I think he also was rather lucky. Look at Ibrahim's wife Rokia, septic from an undelivered placenta. From the description of her condition by the time Mortenson extracted the placenta, would you think she had a good chance? Of course it was amazing he got to treat her at all; it was only because of the trust he had earned that Ibraham could let him touch Rokia.
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His compassion as a nurse is shown in his care of the dying Hoerni, serving as nurse round the clock and helping him with his last requests.
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When survival is a struggle, it is amazing what a difference a seemingly simple thing can make. Digging a pipeline to a distant village cut infant mortality rate in half. Then, one young girl successfully gaining an education changes the thinking of the women throughout the Hushe Valley. A woman could do it and have a different kind of life, if she chose.
Her father was an intelligent far-sighted man, who respected the intelligence he saw in his daughter. It made a significant difference for his people.
I note the curriculum for the CAI schools eschews the “ ‘comparative cultures’ classes then so popular with the West”. Apparently these classes were seen as anti-Islamic by many of the religious leaders. Perhaps Western educators saw them as a clever way to promote our own culture among the children of Central Asia. I would have to see a sample of those ‘comparative cultures’ lessons to really know. It makes sense to me that all children should learn something of the ways of other peoples; we certainly try to teach that here in America. Put if they really are an attempt to “teach Pakistan’s children to think like Americans”, then I can understand the objection to them.
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BABI - you make an excellent point in your last sentence RE teaching Pakistan's children to think like Americans. It reminds me - again - of the recent PBS program ("We Shall Remain") about the history of the uprooting of the Native American tribes (especially the Eastern Cherokee and Apaches) from their homelands in the USA and forced relocation (especially the children to Western style schools). The purpose being, of course, to "Americanize" the Indian children and youth, force their native customs to disappear (including their clothes, hairstyles, food preferences, language usage and family traditions).
I am also reminded of the enormous force which the British forced on the people of Central and South Asia (especially India) with the same expectations. Then Ma'hatma Ghandi responded, standing up for the local customs. Although not native to Central Asia, Mortenson and his efforts for the locals reminds me often of Ghandi.
Mahlia
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Mahlia- re. Americanization
Since a little child I have always loved the Indian stories and unlike Babi who knows her roots are with the Cherokees I have always wondered which tribe does my family tree grow?
Economics and industry came into our nation when the Indians were alreay settled here and we soon replaced their buffalo, gobbled up their lands and mineral rights, reshaped their lands and diminished their resources. Is it for the better? The tribes don't think so and are now insisting that we honor our promises made in 371 active treaties. Some of these even predate the Constitution. In those days arguments were settled with bows, arrows and peace offerings but today they use science and the law.In time to come will it be the same in Pakistan, Afghanistan and many African countries?
Our trying to help frightens me much of the time. These binding partnerships, expanding globally explode when conflicts arise and the "presumption" of rights are questioned.
Thank you Mahlia for the link. Truly I had no clue as to the participation in the economic, social and political spheres in the Islamic history. What the heck happened?
PatH- thanks for the word on Joan. She's had a heck of a time with that computer. I hope that she will be able to get in here before we finish our discussion.
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As requested from Persian I wrote this after seeing a picture and an article explaning what was going on...Does the Koran really demean women ? It is hard for me to believe any religeous belief would do so...I dont know but I was so moved by the picture I wrote the poem ...
Who do I turn to the Afghan woman cried,
Does Allah only love men?
Is my destiny just to die,
Shut away from everything and everyone.
Stifled both in my gown and in my speech,
My teaching abilities hidden and out of reach.
For other females just like me,
No male doctor can treat me when I am ill.
All the female doctors are like me
Hidden, lost and still..
Why am I stoned or beaten with sticks,
Because I meekly try to obey the rules?
Which each day seem more repressive
And my thoughts turn to suicide.
Allah! Allah! I love you.
Lift me up and bring me close.
Hear my plea...Please let me be.
All my dreams are saved for thee.
Let me feel the sun warm upon my cheek,
Let me feel the caring I desperately seek.
Oh Allah ! Allah! Hear, Please Hear..
anna alexander
10/12/2001
©
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Even if the comparative culture lessons were harmless (and I bet they weren't) they would surely be perceived suspiciously, as an attempt at indoctrination, so Mortenson was very wise to leave them out. Throughout, he takes great care to show he is not trying to change anyone's religion or culture, but only to give them the kind of chance at a decent life they ought to have.
"I don't want to teach Pakistan's children to think like Americans, I just want them to have a balanced, nonextremist education. That idea is at the very center of what we do."
It's brilliant to match the curriculum to that of the government schools. He's only giving the people exactly what they have a right to expect from their own government.
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Oh Anna- thank you. that is such a moving poem. As usual, your heart is right out there capturing the essence of sorrow (or joy, which ever it might be.)
Lift me up and bring me close.
Hear my plea...Please let me be.
I agree with you Pat, Mortenson said it well.
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Wow, Anna, thanks for posting that very moving poem.
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It's amazing what wonderful things happen in our lives when we are "lost." My husband and I often drive places and get lost (it's a little better since we got a GPS) We've discovered some fascinating things that we never knew existed.
It was great that Greg found this village when he made a "wrong turn in life's road" It led him to a whole new purpose for being. His family had set the stage for him to build this school. They were a very inspirational group.
I have developed a very warm spot in my heart for this "gentle giant" of a man with size l4 shoes. He seems to affect the people that he encounters in the same way. They all seem eager to help him with his goal. So refreshing.
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Welcome, trlee
It's amazing what wonderful things happen in our lives when we are "lost." My husband and I often drive places and get lost (it's a little better since we got a GPS) We've discovered some fascinating things that we never knew existed.
Being lost can be fun and exciting, but we’re glad you found us here. The more I read and learn about Greg Mortenson, the more I am awed by his remarkableness.
Mahlia, thanks for pointing out to us the differences between Pakistan and Afghanistan. I know that I tend to lump many Middle Eastern countries together, and one thing this book ( and many of you) have shown is that among small groups there can be big differences. But if we can barely discern the differences between two countries, how do we understand, for instance, the problems between Shia and Sunni Muslims.
Re: The Red Box – I guess what shocked me was that the top word about the fatwa came from Iran. Am I wrong to assume then, that this is a religious tie and not a politcal one?
Anna, what a wonderful lovely poem. Thank you.
PatH – Earthquake? Today? And you’re there with JoanK? Please know that all our thoughts for your well-being are with you.
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Mosque cum shrine on way to Skardu from Khaplu (http://www.flickr.com/photos/travller/374496223)
View of Indus River at Skardu, Baltistan, Pakistan (http://www.flickr.com/photos/travller/379977805/)
Les délices de Khaplu (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/858328.jpg)
Where Aslam, the boy from Hushe was sent to school – a path that changed his life.
RAJA'S Garden View, KHAPLU BALTISTAN (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/13928518.jpg)
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PEDLN - I know that it is often confusing when discussing the Middle East (which includes countries like Iraq, Iran), Central Asia (Afghanistan, Pakistan), South Asia (India), North Africa (Egypt) and the Far East (China, Japan) to name just a few. That's why I have been a long-time subscriber to the marvelous National Geographic Maps and, more recently, access their website regularly.
Although we are learning about GM's contemporary adventures among rural mountain communities whose residents adhere ardently to Islam - remember they are NOT Arabs - , there are among the believers with whom he deals a range of religious commitments, tribal affiliation, clan respect for the elders, treatment of women and female children, as well as greed, selfishness and a centuries old distrust of "strangers" (meaning "infidels").
An excellent balance at this point in the discussion is an article in this month's National Geographic which, although it does not focus on Central Asia, provides a clear explanation of centuries old beliefs and a back-and-forth transition between Islam and Orthodox Christianity and back to Islam in the Holy Land. The families and individuals featured in the article ARE Arabs, but they are juggling the rise and fall of the religious (especially at the sect levels) and cultural customs of their homeland (Palestine and Israel) in much the same way that the Pakistanis are struggling. As an aside, here is a link to that article for those posters who might be interested: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/06/arab-christians/belt-text
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SUNNI AND SHIA ISLAM: It is certainly easy to become confused, especially for folks who have not interacted with many Muslims, visited mosques, or studied Islam. But for this discussion (and others in general), perhaps Googling the words I've highlighted will offer a basic understanding. Primarily, the difference is in one's belief in the history of Islam and those revered individuals who carried the faith forward following the death of the Prophet Muhammad.
The disparity one finds in Islam and Islamic customs throughout the world is often the result of the cultural history of a region (and its time periods), rather than in what orthodox (original) Islam teaches. For example, just as there are significant differences in Christianity between the Southern Baptists, Pentecostal Evangelicals (traditional and contemporary), Roman Catholics, Orthodox Greek, Russian and Maronite Catholics, Unitarian and New Age Contemporary (non-denominational) congregations, so there are significant differences in customs and levels of Islamic belief between Sunnis and Shiites. When I think of Shia Islam, I think of Iran. When I think of Sunni Islam, I think FIRST of Saudi Arabic and its ultra-orthodox beliefs. Although the latter has relented in some of its centuries-old traditions in recent years, it has NOT been a significant change. Other gulf countries which also adhere to Sunni traditions, like Kuwait, have recently elected women to government posts. Pakistan, on the other hand, is way ahead of a country like Kuwait, since they have had elected female representation for some time.
It's interesting to me that the female names like Khadisha (various spellings exist) and Ayesha (original names of the first two wives of the Holy Prophet Muhammad and very active women in their own right) have been two of the most popular names throughout the centuries, whether in Sunni or Shia communities around the world.
Sorry for the sidetrack, but I thought some of the above info might be helpful as a "side-bar" to GM's work and experiences. Indeed, he is a mighty fine "giant of a man" who has stepped forward with great dignity and personal commitment to help others. And, to me, passing that commitment along to his children is the very best part of reading about his experiences!
Mahlia
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TRLEE, I think all of us have a warm spot for Greg Mortenson.
I read what Mortenson’s mother-in-law said about him, about her daughter’s appraisal of him being right, and her conclusion that Greg was ‘his own species’. How rare that is. How often do we hear such things as “No man is a hero to his valet.”, and “Only in his home town and in his own house is a prophet without honor“.
Greg Mortenson appears to be an exception to such truisms. It is those who
know him best who most love and honor him. Those angry with him are those he is not allowing to get close and pursue their own agendas.
PEDLN, I found some pictures, too, that I thought were pertinent or that I simply really liked. This one of Skardu shows a larger 'village' than I expected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SkarduFromFort1175.JPG
These I found when I was reading about the Deosai plateau and Nanga Parbat.
http://www.pbase.com/arifakhan/image/33033918 Deosai Plateau
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nanga_parbat,_Pakistan_by_gul791.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muslim-shawl-makers-kashmir1867.jpg
MAHLIA, I love NG maps, too, tho' some that I saved are probably out of date now.
I hadn't thought of putting National Geographic on my favorites list. Great idea.
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trLee- Welcome to our discussion of Three Cups of Tea. I echo Babi's sentiment that we all have found a special place in our hearts for this gentle giant, Greg Mortenson.
Interesting, isn't it, that he hated public speaking about himself but he trodded on in hopes of raising the necessary funds to invest in the children.
It always amazes me that these big guys have the meekest of hearts.
Have you ever met anyone like this man?
I love the Mother Teresa quotes given:
"Let nothing perturb you, nothing frighten you. All things pass.
God does not change. Patience achieves everything."
Man how I wish I could develop and practice that belief. Patience is NOT one of my better qualities.
Also Mortenson paraphrased another Mother Teresa quote while speaking.
"What we are trying to do may be just a drop iin the ocean, but the ocean would be less because of that missing drop."
It's akin to "one step at a time" isn't it? OR- just give one little inch of yourself.
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One thing I lerned to accept as being a part of this culture is BAKSHEESH. It is thought of as the price of doing business there whereas I'd always considered it to be corruption. see quote below. it is more than that. . . claire
Baksheesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mar 22, 2009 ... Baksheesh is a term used to describe tipping, charitable giving, and certain forms of political corruption and bribery in the Middle East ...
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Mahlia, thank you again for your insight into the different cultures we’re encountering here. I know the locations of Sunnis and Shias are not cut and dried, but it certainly helps to know some of the basics.
Babi, that’s a great picture of Skardu, and I really liked the Pakistani ones put on pbase by Arifa Kahn. From what I understand, Skardu, Khaplu, and Gilgit are something akin to county seats – or the major towns in their respective districts. I wonder what the population of Korphe and Skardu is. And I would love to see a picture of Haji Ali’s house.
Andy, thinking about the monumental tasks Mortenson had to overcome, your paraphrases remind me of another, similar – How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
We have talked much about the charisma of Mortenson and his remarkable ability to draw so many diverse persons to him. He has touched so many. But, there have also been so many who touched him. Would you say he had many mentors? Some he sought, but others were just by chance. Without them, the tasks would have been so much harder. Haji Ali (and his family) – the catalyst, Jean Hoerni – the fixer, the doer, Ghulam Parvi – accountant to that rogue Changazi, a steadying hand, Syed Abbas – the mediator, and even the unknown Kahn who freed him from the Wazis. And not to forget Jean Bergman, librarian and cousin to Hoerni’s widow, now to collect books and start a library. Predestination or coincidence?
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Have you ever met anyone like this man?
Alf, my cousin had a son who was even bigger than mine, a young giant. From the time he was a boy, his parents taught him that he needed to be careful and gentlein playing with other children, as he was stronger then they and might accidentally hurt someone. He took their admonitions to heart, and was a very big, very gentle man.
And then there is the macho male, to whom a bit of success is a signal to be
more aggressive. Nawaz Sharif, Prime Minister of Pakistan, apparently started
a war with India that he couldn’t win simply because he was so full of himself
and his success with nuclear tests. His cocky, foolish aggression destroyed a
rich, beautiful area and ruined the lives of thousands of people. Bah, humbug!!
And what a difference caring can make. The young girl from the refugee school:
“I’ve heard some peope say Americans are bad. But we love Americans. They are the
most kind people for us. They are the only ones who cared to help us.”
Do I dare to post this? I grind my teeth and want to curse them, the corrupt officials
who destroy their own country and their own people out of greed! Seizing their own
young girls and selling them into prostitution. I wish I could be there when
such creatures as this face the judgment of God. (Sorry, but I really do get so angry!)
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I've never heard the word baksheesh used in terms of "charitable giving." I think of the word zakat- which is the percentage of income one contributes to the poor during the Holy Month of Ramadan (or any other time if one chooses to do so) or during the Islamic Pilgrimage to Mecca once a year, known as "The Hajj."
When I think of baksheesh, I think in terms of tipping a driver to make sure that I get where I want to go promptly with no meandering through side streets; for service workers who come to my home and I want a thorough job done with no nonsense. Or from the corporate standpoint, a bidding company that wants a specific contract to work on a special project pays "corporate tax" - an incentive (baksheesh) to secure the contract or a specific number of workers or drivers or security guards, based on the description (and on-the-ground needs) of the project. At the corporate level, it is often considered NOT baksheesh, but some type of tax that is included in the contract and accepted by the bidders as part of the cost of securing the contract. Many times the amount is thousands - sometimes millions of dollars - depending on the companies involved. This is QUITE common (and expected) among not only the Middle East, but elsewhere in the world, even in the USA.
Another type of monetary donation, which is NOT considered regular baksheesh, would be the few coins dropped in a bowl or small box on the streets of very poor neighborhoods to help women, children or lepers (or others with physical ailments). That type of donation is known as baksheesh with love. In this instance, think of Mother Theresa's efforts in India.
Mahlia
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As we approach the last section of Tea, and with the situation in Pakistan becoming more volatile, I find myself wanting to know more about what is occurring now with Mortenson and the Central Asia Institute. The link below is to an interview with Sadia Ashraf, the Outreach Coordinator for the Central Asia Institute (CAI) and editor of CAI’s e-newsletter, Alima. Her husband accompanied Mortenson to Pakistan this past March when Mortenson was awarded Pakistan's highest civilian honor -- the Star of Sacrifice.
Ashraf Interview (http://www.ait.net/technos/e-zine/interviews/sadia_ashraf.php)
Technos: You’ve described Greg Mortenson as an “indiscriminate compassionate”—can you explain what you mean by that?
S.A.: What interested me about Greg was that his basic humanity superseded his biological boundaries. And by that, I mean that people are often defined by the things that divide us: language, culture, race, religion, for example. But, to coexist peacefully on this earth, we have to see beyond these labels. I’m not saying that we should ignore these things, because they define us—but we shouldn’t allow those things to divide us. We’re genetically coded to protect our own families, our own communities, but Greg is someone whose empathy for others supersedes those biological instincts; he is indiscriminately compassionate to all people.
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Pedln: "We have talked much about the charisma of Mortenson and his remarkable ability to draw so many diverse persons to him. He has touched so many. But, there have also been so many who touched him. Would you say he had many mentors? Some he sought, but others were just by chance. Without them, the tasks would have been so much harder. Haji Ali (and his family) – the catalyst, Jean Hoerni – the fixer, the doer, Ghulam Parvi – accountant to that rogue Changazi, a steadying hand, Syed Abbas – the mediator, and even the unknown Kahn who freed him from the Wazis. And not to forget Jean Bergman, librarian and cousin to Hoerni’s widow, now to collect books and start a library. Predestination or coincidence?"
One of Mortenson's characteristics is that he takes these lessons seriously--notices them and learns from them.
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PEDLN: Your question RE whether GM had "many mentors" made me recall a Persian saying - "you are always in my eyes" - which could very well reflect how the folks around Mortenson interacted with him. He was indeed "always in their eyes" whether as someone to rescue and heal (in his initial contact when he was ill), as he promised to return to build a school for the children (i.e., you will remain in our eyes until you return to us safely), and watching over what he helped to build, protecting the property, the building, the school supplies and, of course, his subsequent visits. And since he had already had his "third cup of tea," he was indeed a treasured member of the community. Thus, indeed in their hearts.
The phrase about always being "in our eyes," (which is also offered with prayers to someone who is greatly loved, someone who is leaving home, traveling or undertaking a dangerous assignment - going into combat - or as in the case of GM, a dear friend).
There is an evilness in the part of the world which we've been reading about, which is often not understood (or many times not even acknowledged) by the West, but at the village level there is often tremendous love and feelings of compassion for folks who "reach out" to help. And this is how I've viewed the villagers with whom GM has come into contact and, quite clearly, how he is viewed by many of them. Indeed, a gentle giant whose footprints have led to his touching the hearts of many in an intriguing (and often little known or understood) region of the world.
BABI - isn't it amazing how so often the biggest individuals are indeed the most gentle and the most giving of themselves, their skills and their treasure!
Mahlia
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Mrs. Ashraf is a very articulate lady. She makes a splendid spokesman for the CAI. I am so pleased to learn that Mortenson is receiving such an honor
from Pakistan. He has certainly earned it.
Speaking of 'that rogue' Chongazi, Mortenson did eventually buid a school in his
village also. I was glad of that, as the children needed it. But I found myself
imagining a vision of Mortenson going to the village elders explaining that many
of his school supplies had been 'lost' under Chongazi's care, and if they could be found, he planned to use them toward building a school in their village. I can visualize Chongazi facing the village elders, and wonder if such materials would have been 'found'.
I found another beautiful line by Relin: The wonderful image he gives us, of lush cherry trees standing where there were only dunes, “blooming out of the sand as improbably as the students who walk home after school beneath their boughs, the girls of the Gultori.”
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Yes, ladies, this big giant of a guy was a ''softie" at heart. I loved the idea that with his gaudy offering he satto view his heroine, Mother Teresa, in repose thinking how this small being had such a huge effect on humanity.
Mortenson changed his attitude about the war in Afghanistan and asked the question:
"Why do Pentagon officials give us numbers on AlQaeda and Taliban operatives killed in bombing raids but throw their hands in the air when asked about civilian casualties?"
Mortenson sat with young boys and listened to their horrowr stories of what the war had wrought into their families.
He even met men who had fought with the Taliban and had admitted to him that "like the Taliban, jihadi was in theory only."
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/3cupstea/3cupsofteacvr.jpg) |
Three Cups of Tea
by
Greg Mortenson & David Oliver Relin
"The first time that you share tea with a Balti, you are a stranger" a villager tells our author. "The second time, you are an honored guest. The third time you become family." ~ Three Cups of Tea
______________ Three Cups of Tea is an inspirational story of one man's efforts to address poverty, educate girls, and overcome cultural divides. This book won the 2007 Kiriyama Prize for nonfiction revealing the enormous obstacles inherent in becoming such "family." ~ Bookmarks Magazine
|
Three Cups of Tea -- Homepage. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/)
Ignorance -- the Real Enemy. (http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=22471)
Synopsis and Biography. (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Three-Cups-of-Tea/Greg-Mortenson/e/9780143038252/?itm=1)
Readers' Guide by the Author. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/wp-includes/documents/3CTReadingGuide.pdf)
K2 Mountain. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2)
| -- | Discussion Schedule - May 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 6
- May 8 - 14 Chapters 7 - 12
- May 15 - 21 Chapters 13 - 18
- May 22 - 31 Chapters 19 - End
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| . | 1. What made Mortenson particularly ripe for such a transformation? Has anything similar happened in your own life?
2. Is Mortenson someone that you would like to know, work with or have as a neighbor or friend?
3. At the heart of the book is a powerful but simple poliical message: we each as individuals have the power to change the world, one cup of tea at a time, etc. | . |
Discussion Leaders: Andy(ALF43) (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
You all have been so attentive, informative and enlightening during this discussion but I think after a few days more we will be wrapping up Three Cups of Tea, with Mortenson.
In my heart, I admit to the fact that this should have been a two week read and I fear that it may have discouraged some folks from joining in.
Do you think Mortenson will ever win a Nobel prize?
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ALF - Sorry, but am I missing something here? I understood that the discussion would last one month. We seem to be on schedule. And considering that there has been some absolutely wonderful information provided in the numerous links - info about which some posters may NOT already be aware. Additionally, Central Asia (and its people) on which this discussion focuses is admittedly not well understood, especially by those in the West. Thus, allowing the discussion to continue for one month (as indicated in the posted schedule) has, I believe, been a marvelous opportunity for learning.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with the regional politics, the customs of its residents (villagers, clans, tribes and religious customs), discussing Three Cups of Tea and GM's adventures and contributions to the area offers an excellent opportunity to view a world much different than one to which most are acquainted. No apologies needed for that gift to all of us!
Mahlia
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Mahlia- I agree 100% about the information that has been offered and available to all of us here during this discussion.
If you and the rest feel that another 10 days is warranted, I'm all for it.
I don't wish to drag a discussion out if we get bogged down as we near the end. I will leave this up to the group.
I still have questions that I'd like to pose from the Reader's Guide:
What say you all?
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There are certain recognizable patterns in the development of people/cultures and I wonder will we ever be able to integrate these philosophies? The flow must be from "me" to "us" to "all of us." Cultures move thru distinct stages with distinct values and to know that is a great tool in communicating with others, be it Eastern vs. Western or black vs. white, etc.
I know that I'm going off on a philosophy kick but we all travel and our different value systems travel with us. Some cultures speak the language of "ME"; some speak of "US" and some do speak of "all of us."
Thanks to globalization , many value systems have already been brought together (united even in some instances.)
Mortenson's ambitious attempts helped integrate just this small area by addressing these different values in terms of their own language. He said himself :
"I realized my credibility in that part of the world depended on me not being associated with the American government, especially the military."
Will we ever come to terms with different value systems, do you think? (In our time, especially.)
These thoughts sadden me and the title of Chapter 22 sums it up
THE ENEMY IS IGNORANCE.
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I keep reading but have no idea if I am ahead or behind in chapters etc ..I am just so moved by what this man and the people there have gone through and endured and kept being positive in spite of some calamaties ...everytime there has been a mountain in the road GM and the people there moved it ...what most people would have said when things went wrong would have been WE CANT DO IT but these people and GM dont seem to recognize the word CANT ....I am proud of GM and prouder still of the people there that just pitched in and made this dream a reality ...I am so glad this book was chosen...
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ALF, I couldn't have begun to talk about all the ideas this book brought to mind in
just two weeks. You were definitely right to make it a full month. Seems to me it will
be finishing up just about right.
I looked up 'Wahhabism', meaning, literally, ‘generous giver’. That is their strength,
of course, the endless funds pouring out of Saudi Arabia, buying adherents from among the poorest. It’s happened before; the ‘rice bowl’ Christian converts of China, for example. The Jesuit missionaries, however, did not turn their converts into militant extremists. To his credit, Mortenson does say that not all the Wahhabi are bad, and that many of their schools and mosques were going genuine good work to help the poor. Many others, however, existed only to teach a militant jihad.
And the students at the madrassas were “the rootless, the jobless and the economicallydeprived with little self knowledge”.
It would seem the best thing the West could do is to help with education for
‘self-knowledge’ and jobs for the jobless, both of which relieve the economically
deprived.
It was such relief to read of the ‘bloodless’ coup that removed Mawaz Sharif from
office and replaced him with a government, even one of martial law, that cracked
down on corruption and actually begun getting some funds to needy villages
in the countryside. Not to mention one that promised to act against the Islamic
extremists. How fortunate it was for Mortenson and the McCown’s that Musharraf
was in control of Pakistan on 9/11, and prepared to assist them.
I find compelling the image of Faisal Baig, with his AK-47 in one hand and the other
clenched into a fist, staring at the peaks that separated them from Afghanistan.
“Your problem in New York village comes from there. From this Al Qaeda shetan , Osama.” (I leave it to your imagination to translate ‘shetan’. I have my own.)
“It would take months and millions of dollars poured into the flailing serpentine arms of the U.S. Intelligence apparatus to untangle for certain what this illiterate man who lived in the last village at the end of a dirt road, without an Internet connection or even a phone, knew instinctively.”
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fairanna- you are neither behind nor ahead with the reading schedule. This week we finish up our discussion -- so anything at all that you would care to mention is now "safe territory."
Thank you Babi for your helpful comment regarding the length of time allowed. Our site is new here and we wish to do what ever works best for all involved. Feedback is important to us.
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I think there are numerous tribal elders and some in mid-age who have learned (sadly) that those who offer to feed and clothe their children (especially during the Holy Month of Ramadan), educate them in the numerous madrassas throughout the region, and "talk the big talk" about a better way of life, also expect unending devotion (no questions asked) from the families of those who benefit from their deceitful intentions. Thus referring to Osama (bin Laden) as "she'tan" (Satan) tends to say it all. There are other phrases which are common in this world region: "the Great She'tan); "She'tan's minions" (fallen angels who do the work of the devil or humans who are evil minded); "She'tanic attitudes" or behavior usually referring to individuals (or families) who have unusual health conditions.
In the latter context, I was reminded of a program which will be featured tonight on the TV program 20/20 RE Tourette's Syndrome. Without the intensive training and understanding of this disorder as offered in the West, individuals afflicted with such health challenges in other world regions are often not well understood or receive the care and treatment which helps them (and their families) to deal with their unusual behavior.
One of my former students in China, who had been locked into a small wooden chamber as a child because his rural family thought he was an "incarnate of the Devil," lacked the proper nourishment in childhood and early youth to develop strong bones and good health. Thus, this young man was no taller than my waist when I first met him, he walked bent over from the waist and one leg was much shorter than the other. He also exhibited what I thought was Tourette's Syndrome. Yet he had a vibrant mind, loved to play violin, and enjoyed learning. The university administration and most faculty couldn't decide what to do with him, but he kept showing up and asking to be allowed to attend classes. Mine was one of them. This young man offered me a wonderful learning opportunity for myself and a great chance to share information with him about American culture.
Mahlia
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I'm back with a new computer which I'm just learning to use. Just have time to read all the wonderful posts and post briefly.
I loved the quote from Mother Teresa. my favorite of her quotes is "You can't do great things in this world, but you can do small things with great love". Mortensen, by doing "small things with great love" winds up doing great things.
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Good luck with your new computer, Joan. Are you sorry that our hero, Mortenson, the climbing bum, never made it to the top of K2? The mountain has seemed to be hovering in the background all along, like the Qu'ran. And now here he is in the company of Mother Teresa, who had her own unclimbed spiritual K2, if we can believe her words in her book, Come Be My Light. Sure, I think Mortenson should also be awarded a Nobel.
And talk about Mortenson as the gentle giant. I have to keep thinking of another giant, who tamed the daring, dauntless, violent Pathans in this Khyber Pass area in another time of turmoil. Abdul Ghaffer Khan, who was won over to non-violence by Gandhi in the struggle for freedom. Mahlia put us on to the Badshah Khan in another discussion a few years ago, with a reference to the book A Man To Match His Mountains, by Eknath Easwaran.
All their efforts were in vain. It's been all downhill in the area since then. A pretty good picture is to be had in Descent Into Chaos, by Ahmed Rashid. And then along comes a guy like Mortenson and restores ones faith in humanity.
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HI JONATHAN - Here's a link to a great photo of the Badshah, alongside Ghandi. I remember our discussion sometime ago. I've read the book many times until it is almost in shreds on my shelf and used it just as often as a teaching tool for lectures on World Regions. True, there have been continued battles of many decades in the region, much as we continue to see in recent years. But folks like the Badshah and Greg Mortenson give one hope. Doesn't it make you wonder what it would have been like if they had been able to meet each other?
Mahlia
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JONATHAN: part of me is sorry he didn't summit K2: climbing (and nature) is so unfair: he didn't summit partly because he wore himself out hellping others. But most of me is glad -- if he had summited, he would have celebrated and gone on to another mountain, and hundreds of children would have been poorer.
As a climbing bum,we need your take on Mortensen. Does he seem like "someone from another planet" or is he familiar.
You all think of him as a "gentle giant". Since I live with my 6'5" son, my reaction when the book mentioned his size is "he's not so tall". But the pictures in the book show that amoung the shorter Balti, he really is a giant. I wonder if that helped or hindered him in his deqalings.
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I remember Mahlia telling us about "A Man to Match His Mountains". I tried
to find that book at the time but was unable to do so. It sounds like such
a good story; I think I need to do an on-line search among the 'old and used'.
MAHLIA, I don't see the link to the photo of the Badshah. Could you try posting it again?
Syed Abbas is another good man. I am glad his words were preserved, in the speech he gave at the school dedication following 9/ll. This is the supreme religious leader of the Baltistan, and he says: “Those who have committed this evil act against the innocent, the women and children, to create thousands of widows and orphans do not do so in the name of Islam. By the grace of Alah the Almighty, may justice be served upon them.” To which I say, ‘Amen‘.
In the same speech Syed Abbas says, “I request America to look into our hearts, and see that the great majority of us are not terrorists, but good and simple people. Our land is stricken with poverty because we are without education. But today, another candle of knowledge has been lit. In the name of Allah the Almighty, may it light our way out of the darkness we find ourselves in." To which again I say, ‘Amen’
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BABI - Thanks for catching my forgetfulness. Here is the link I intended to post - a bit long, but one that should take you to a close-up photo of the Badshah, alongside Ghandi. If you click on the items on the RIGHT side, there is more information and on the lower LEFT side, there are some additional photos.
Mahlia
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qt-5KgZa5VEC&dq=A+Man+To+Match+His+Mountains,+by+Eknath+Easwaran.&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0
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JoanK, I’m so glad you got set up with a new computer. Nice, but always with a new learning curve. Good luck with yours. You wonder if Mortenson’s height, or size affected his dealings with his Pakistani friends. I don’t think so. They loved him, but they also knew it was mutual admiration – that Mortenson truly cared for them.
Babi, I’m glad you posted parts of Syed Abbas’ dedication speech – especially when he says, “look into our hearts . . . and see that we are good and simple people.” This book has certainly helped in that respect, but it is also a reminder that we need to look for the goodness in others and not just be so concerned with their differences. That is something that Mortenson seems to do with ease.
This morning I was looking for recent articles about Syed Abbas Risvi, and didn’t really find any that zeroed in on him, but did find some others that were current – especially the first link here, which quotes librarian Julia Bermann.
Jonathan, glad to see you here. Must dash now to the Post Office before it closes.
Education-Minded Afghans, Pakistanis Urge Central Asia Institute to Build More Schools (http://www.wrmea.com/archives/March_2008/0803046.html)
Since the group mainly builds primary schools for grades K through five, one special concern is students’ ability to continue their education. To this end, Bergman said, in addition to providing scholarships CAI is building a hostel in Skardu to provide safe, chaperoned housing for students while they attend middle school and high school in Baltistan’s capital city. Since CAI schools follow the national curriculum of Pakistan, graduates eventually can matriculate to universities in Lahore or other major cities. With financial assistance from CAI, Bergman noted, Jahan Ali, Korphe School’s first graduate, was able to continue her education in Skardu
Wish I seen this one earlier – vocab, and describes all those who appeared in the book.
Vocab and characters (http://wordpress.shs.ddtwo.org/dhogg/files/2009/01/fullthreecupsofteastudyguide.doc)
This from an article by a father whose daughter placed Three Cups of Tea in his hands.
Morningside Center (http://www.gregmortenson.com/Articles/2008Articles/12-03-08MorningsideCenter.htm)
Fifteen years after he stumbled upon Korphe to be greeted by Haji Ali, Mortenson is still at work building schools--to date, 55 in Pakistan, 8 in Afghanistan, and more than a dozen others under construction. They serve 26,000 children, 16,000 of them girls.
Finishing Three Cups of Tea, I was reminded of Thomas Merton's "A Letter to a Young Activist. "Do not depend on the hope of results," Merton wrote. "When you are doing the sort of work you have taken on…you may have to face the fact that your work will be apparently worthless and even achieve no result at all, if not perhaps results opposite to what you expect. As you get used to this idea, you start more and more to concentrate not on the results but on the value, the truth of the work itself."[/quote]
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Pedln- I can not get that link to work for me. Now I feel like poor Joan, ready to throw in the towel. :'(
Hello Joanathan, you pose a good point about Mortenson never reaching the K2 summit. Do you think he is disappointed still at this point in his life?
Sure, I think Mortenson should also be awarded a Nobel.
Do you believe that it would be a Peace prize extended to him? Will we ever find peace in that area? I am not a pessimist by any means but it all seems so devastatingly hostile still.
But.... as Persian said:
But folks like the Badshah and Greg Mortenson give one hope.
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I found the picture of Gandhi and the Badshah, Mahlia. Thanks for the link. I
was surprised to see the Badshah; I had expected him to be big, like his mountains.
MAHLIA, can you explain to me more clearly what Mortenson meant when he said that to ignore the victims is to deny they ever existed? And that there is no greater insult in the Islamic world, one that is unforgivable?
Speaking of the importance of education, DOR describes the educational background of some Taliban leaders. Mullah Omar, like most of those around him, had only a madrassa education. Their minister of education reportedly had no education at all. How’s that for irony?
PEDLN, another tribute to the individual who is Greg Mortenson. An experienced, worldly-wise journalist like Fedarko says “For the first time in sixteen years of working as a journalist, I lost all objectivity. I told Greg, ‘What you’re doing here is a much more important story than the one I’ve come to report. I have to find a way to tell it.’ “ When you can shake up a cynical journalist, you've definitely got something unique.
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Mullah Omar, like most of those around him, had only a madrassa education. Their minister of education reportedly had no education at all. How’s that for irony?
Babi, that is so sad. In a tongue-in-cheek way it reminds of me of trying to interest school administrators, who never read beyond the sports page, in the school library programs. And then you think about the village leaders like Haji Ali, who had no schooling, and yet they all knew the value of learning and wanted it desperately for their children.
Oh wow! Just watched the shuttle landing at Edwards. We are so fortunate to have such wide-spread access to our very large world. What about those in the Baltisan and similar areas of Central Asia, Africa and the Middle East? Those who do not get far from the mud huts? Even though they may be cyber have-nots, teachers and books are enlarging their world too.
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Small victories are so monumental such as when the Shaiat Court ruled in favor of Mehdi Ali and Mortenson, ordering Mubarek to compensate for the 800 bricks his men destroyed.
This brought today's headlines right to the surface as Mortenson declared:
"Here you have this Islamic court in conservative Sia Pakistan offering protection for an American, at a time when America is holding Muslims without charges in Guantanamo, Cuba, for years, under our so called system of justice."
What a can of worms that has turned out to be and I have to side with the sentiment of Bashir when he exclaimed:
"Your President has done a wonderful job of uniting one bllion Muslims against America for the next 200 years."
:'(
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We at least now have the comfort of knowing that President Obama has ordered an end to the Guantanamo situation. If charges cannot be brought, the 'detainees' must be released. It does not give back the years these people have lost or make amends for all they suffered, but it at least will bring this disgrace to an end.
I understand the need to investigate possible terrorist ties, but whenever the
investigations found nothing, the people concerned should have been released
immediately.
Please tell me this was a joke. Rumsfeld didn’t really complain that there were no good targets in Afghanistan, and suggest they strike Iraq instead, did he? A joke about him, or a joke by him, but at least a joke, right?
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BABI - here's another link to an additional photo of the Badshah, showing him standing along-side some officials. In this photo, you'll easily see that he is very tall - I'd guess about 6'4" or so, like many of his tribesmen. The photo in the earlier link, which shows him next to Ghandi must surely have been taken while they were sitting.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qt-5KgZa5VEC&pg=PA208&dq=A+Man+To+Match+His+Mountains,+by+Eknath+Easwaran.&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1#PPA208,M1
And in response to your question about "ignoring the victim" and doing so "is an extreme insult in the Islamic world" . . . I would understand that to mean that in Islam ALL human life is valuable and that if one claims to be a Muslim, then one must recognize and care for the "victims" (in any situation and if at all possible, even placing one's own needs at the end of the line) if indeed they cannot care for themselves (elderly, ill) and/or treat others with compassion.
There are several phrases that come to mind - one of which is "if you claim to be a Muslim, make sure that you feed the least amongst you (the widows and orphans, those who have been otherwise abandoned, the ill and mentally challenged, and anyone else who cannot for whatever reason care for themselves) before you open your own mouth." This means all the time during the entire year, NOT just during the Holy month of Ramadan.
Mahlia
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Well I finished the book last evening and of course the best part was that Mortenson had accomplished much and is still trying to continue to do so.. In one poem I wrote "Parents arm your children with knowledge. take away the guns " too bad that is not what most people or sadly countries feel "book learning" and knowledge is not really the same thing ...one of my sons was "an overactive child" I forget what the medical world called it and the school system did not help ..but I fought to see that he did get the special classes that he needs. Why do we assume each child or person learns the same way ? He is a successful adult ..in every way ...so to me what Mortenson did is so wonderful and the fact that the elders in the communities felt the same way tells me they are wonderful too...When any country resorts to doing the "wrong" things then you know the people will suffer..and I mean "any country" I am so glad we discussd this book ..it gave me a "lot" of heros to cheer for and Mortenson would be at the top of my current list....
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Thanks, MAHLIA, both for the additional photo of Badshah Khan and for the explanation of the 'insult' of ignoring victims in need. I suspect there are not many who will go so far as to put the needs of others before their own, though. I will cheerfully give all I can spare, but not to the point of 'before you open your own mouth', which I assume means to eat.
A pair of vignettes: Haji Ali on the death of his wife, Salina. Old enough and strong enough to confess how much she meant to him.
Then Mortenson finding him gone the following year, and mourning him as a second father.
Then, Islamabad’s five-star Marriott Hotel, “a fortress of luxury protected from the country’s poverty by concrete crash gates and a force of 150 security guards….who loitered behind every bush and tree…” Oh, yeah. That would really make me feel safe. Those stinging little words, 'protectd from the country's poverty'. That says so much.
Have you noticed how freely and openly Muslims pray? Everyone calls on Allah wherever and whenever they feel the need to do so. How different it is in America. I don’t doubt Christians pray in times of trouble and danger, but they do so privately, silently. It seems we are embarrassed to do otherwise. We don’t want to be thought of as ‘religious’, a word that has come to have some very negative connotations in recent years. I look at the commitment to prayer and the submission to whatever God sends that I see in Islam, and I am ashamed of my own laxity.
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BABI - no need to be ashamed RE prayers. Islam teaches that prayer can be offered in many ways - verbally, through gestures of support to those in need, assistance for many of life's challenges and, perhaps most importantly of all, through one's silence. If one is unable to pray verbally, silent prayers are just as powerful. Individuals who cannot speak aloud (for whatever reason) can "pray with their eyes focused towards Our Lord."
I was reminded of the latter when I watched the National Memorial Day Service on TV and noticed the young wounded soldier sitting in a wheelchair, alongside his Mother and sister in the front row. He was totally paralyzed from his injuries, but his eyes moved occasionally. I wondered if he was praying - perhaps thanking the Lord for the close presence of family or being able to sit front-row center at the program, while two actresses (representing the Mother and sister) spoke of uprooting their own lives to care for him daily, far away from their home and friends. "I will NEVER leave my son," the Mother promised, in much the same way our Lord has promised never to leave us, whether we pray regularly or not.
Another issue I've always appreciated about prayers is that from my own experiences (in the USA and abroad) our Lord listens to prayers or just talking to Him (in any language or region of the world), regardless of the topic, our tone of voice, or the reason we are communicating with Him.
Mahlia
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Babi that is a great comment about praying ...I AM A BELIEVER in prayer A STRONG one but after reading your post I wonder about why I dont pray out loud or make it apparant I am praying However I do bless people in public...and often when I see people hug ask to be included and I have never had one say no They just open thier arms and we have a group hug I add a GOD BLESS and they tell me by their smiles and sometimes another hug they are blessing me...I was in the commissary this weekend and one of the people who stack the shelves helped me to put a bracelet that had fallen to the floor a special one from my children , it has a sort of trick connection,. she came over and hooked it for me and turned to go back to her job But I was near tears thinking I could have lost it..she turned and came back and gave me a hug and I hugged her back and said GOD BLESS YOU>>of course I knew HE HAD because of her kindness
For years I kept my prayer list on the refrigerator door and I had it divided one side said Prayers asked and the other side Prayers answered I can remember my childrens friends checking it and often I knew they had problems and of course their names were on the list
I can recall when they saw thier names there they were touched and pleased that I had prayed for them or for someone they knew ..I think I will do it again so my family will see or a visitor might see ..they are being remembered.
Your post and Mahklia's opened my heart to the importance of letting others know you pray... Thanks God I needed that.. always, anna
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"I will NEVER leave my son," the Mother promised, in much the same way our Lord has promised never to leave us, whether we pray regularly or not.
Mahlia, what a powerful analogy you have made with that story. I love it and it gives me pause.
Babi- I, too, sit ashamed when I consider your quote.
Have you noticed how freely and openly Muslims pray? Everyone calls on Allah wherever and whenever they feel the need to do so. How different it is in America. I don’t doubt Christians pray in times of trouble and danger, but they do so privately, silently. It seems we are embarrassed to do otherwise. We don’t want to be thought of as ‘religious’, a word that has come to have some very negative connotations in recent years.
WHY, I ask has religion taken such a disavowing slant? Is it because of the zealots in all of their fervor that we take a step back when someone initiates a religious discussion? Just the other day I made a comment and someone asked me if "I got religion?" My answer was "No, religion has always had me!" It was a benign conversation about the over abuse of alchohol. I shook my head and walked away.
Why do we pray siently? It is a thoughtful question and one that I feel should be addressed. Many times people prefer the quiet and the solitude of prayer while they indulge in introspection or meditation. I belong to a prayer group where we pray aloud, together and many times prostrate ourselves at the altar in prayer. Other times we sit and pray silently.
To "God Bless " someone as Anna has done is to honor them, IMO. They deserve God's blessing and his sanction in the person's eyes.
I am with you Anna. I am going to take my prayer list out of my Bible and place it on my refrigerator. IN RED!
Who doesn't need grace and favor? Islams, Christians, Jew, we are all in need of that bigger power.
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Remember the story of the double footprints alongside each other in the sand? And then, periodically, there was only one set of footprints . . . when the Lord carried His "beloved son?" I've used that story (and some photos of the footprints in the sand) often in my lectures, when talking to folks from other faith backgrounds and those who have no faith background (or at least they think they don't).
From my own personal experiences being raised in a multicultural/multifaith environment, I've realized numerous times how often we can misjudge, criticize or miss the point altogether. Fortunately, for all humans, the Lord does not. Just as we see as GM travels to the high mountain ranges of Central Asia to fulfill his love and respect to his deceased sister, but also disc overs "a whole new world" that might NOT have come to his attention on a regular mountain climbing expedition.
Earlier today, my cousin's widow called to tell me that her plans to sell her Michigan home and relocate to Florida were moving along "according to the Lord's plans." That's wonderful.
At the end of March, my son, "Chaps" and his family returned safely to the USA after more than 2 years of being posted in Europe, following his deployments with his soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan. He may deploy for a second time to the latter and if so, I know the Lord will walk alongside ALL THE WAY. He promised!
Our dear friend from the former SN, Cordelia, was called by the Lord early this morning, and I know how devastated Papa John is feeling now. Our Lord must certainly have needed another Angel and he called Cordelia!
For each one of us there is a very special way that we understand prayer/response - whether in times of sadness, thankfulness or family troubles - and each way is right for us. And for those from backgrounds totally different than our own! In the latter case, it is a wonderful opportunity to share and learn . . . and if they're really, really nice folks, share some ice cream with them!
Mahlia
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I read in horror Mortenson's escapade when he spotted the painted red rocks at th etop of a mountain pass, some of them obscured by snow. I didn't know that
Afghanistan is the most heavily mined country on earth with millions of timy explosives buried by half a dozen differnet armies over decades.......
They cleared the land mines and were rescued by a couple of smugglers, in an overloaded, laboring truck filled with "hot" refrigerators. See there is honor amongst thieves, they even offered the guys juicy grapes.
How sad for the old man, Mohammed who asked "why did the taliban have to kill our land?"
It became increasingly clear to Mortenson just how much killing had been done in Afghanistan, and how thoroughly not just the civilians but the combatants, must have suffered"
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. . . . called to tell me that her plans . . . .were moving along "according to the Lord's plans."
That’s lovely, Mahlia, much like “Inshallah” -- God willing, and perhaps, “if it’s in God’s plan.”
Yes, Babi, the Muslim commitment to prayer is awesome. The calls to prayer are the most important parts of the day. I don’t doubt that there are many in other religions that have the same commitment, but because it is not as visible we are unaware of it.
That was awful, Andy, they were really between a rock and a hard place --- either get blown up from a mine or go back in the tunnel and get smashed by a truck. GM really found himself in some very dangerous situations, but for the most part, he always found others who were willing to help him. And when they got in the crossfire of the smugglers, Abdullah made sure that GM was going to get out of there safely; he’d worry about his own safety later.
I knew that there were parts of the world that were heavilly mined, but did not know that Afghanistan was the most mined. Princess Diana campaigned heavily to get mines removed, but I’m not sure which countries she was concerned with. And weren’t there two women from Ireland several years ago who were awarded the Peace Prize(? not sure) for their work in getting mines removed.
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Thank you, MAHLIA & ANNA. You've brightened my day.
"..he always found others who were willing to help him."
PEDLN, this sort of
thing happened so often I am convinced that, as Mahlia said, the Lord was'walking
with him". I believe that is especially true when one is doing work pleasing to
God. As both the Bible and the Qu'ran teach, true 'religion' is helping the poor,
the widow, the orphan, the homeless.
I remember two women from Ireland being honored for their work in bringing
about a truce between the warring Catholic/Protestant factions. Perhaps that is
what you're remembering.
I have to say another ‘Amen’, to Christiane Letinger’s comment about the heroism
of Tara Bishop. How many women could have endured such a life, with a husband/father
gone for months at a time, raising two children, living on a relatively small
income supplemented by part time work of her own. Yet Tara not only lived with it,
she supported it. Realistically speaking, I don’t believe there is any way Mortenson
could have accomplished all he did without that kind of love and support at home.
I am reminded of HajI Ali’s tribute to his wife: “I am nothing without her.”
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BABI - I am reminded of HajI Ali’s tribute to his wife: “I am nothing without her.”
Although we in the West may not fully realize the importance of women in Islamic communities, regardless of the horrors experienced by many at the hands of young males who have been indoctrinated (especially in the radical madrassas which often teach that females are inferior), many Muslims whom I have known personally follow in the footsteps of Hajji Ali's great respect for his wife and pride in their daughters and other female relatives.
On the opposite side, is the FRONTLINE WORLD TV program which I watched last night, http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/ depicting the horrendous indoctrination in many of the madrassas in Pakistan, which recruit young male children (as young as 5,6,7 years old) and forcibly teach them that females are inferior. At several stages of the program, I was strongly tempted to turn off the TV, but decided I needed to watch it to the end. Then I sent the link to the program to Chaps, so that he can use it as a cultural teaching tool for his young soldiers heading to Afghanistan in the Summer - many of whom have never been away from home before, let alone to a country in Central Asia, where customs regarding gender (and other topics) are often abhorrently different than in the West.
Mahlia
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Some years ago I read a book by a woman who had been part of the royal family in Saudi Arabia. One of her earliest childhood memories was of telling her mother about something mean that her brother had done to her. Her mother slapped her, and let her know in no uncertain terms that her brother was far superior to her, and could do as he pleased. Looking back on that, I wonder if it was the mother's way of saying, "stay out of his way, don't mess with your brother."
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PEDLN - I'd interpret the Saudi mother's comments to her daughter as meaning she should not criticize her brother, not necessarily to "stay out of his way." Of course, it would depend on the age of the young girl (and that of her brother), whether there were others around to hear the child's comment, and the context in which the girl was complaining about her brother's actions. I've known some extremely strong and verbal young Saudi girls and also some enormously shy and nonverbal girls. The differences in behavior, of course, depends enormously on education, cultural background and one's personal emotional/psychological makeup. That also applies to the parents (and the family) in which one is raised. And sometimes such stringent behavior changes drastically when an individual or family is exposed to less rigorous religious rules.
Here's a link to an excellent text (and several reviews) about the ultra-orthodox Wahhabi sect of Islam to which Saudi Arabia adheres. It is written by a scholar at Georgetown University in Washington DC, who is well versed in her topic.
http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/ReligionTheology/Islam/?view=usa&ci=0195169913
The Wahhabi doctrine of Islam is enormously different (and much stricter) than that of the Shia and Sunni branches. Often those of the Wahhabi sect do not accept the former at all. There are, of course, numerous other links, but this one explains the intense orthodoxy and history of the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia.
Mahlia
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I wondered why Mortenson wanted to talk with the military leaders at the Pentagon, since he was not willing to accept any funds from them for the CAI. (It just struck me; what a world of difference between CAI and CIA.) Anyway, reading what he said to them, I can only assume he was hoping some of the leadership would think about what he said, and make changes in their approach to the problems of the mid-East. “I’m here because I know that military victory is only the first phase of winning the war on terror and I’m afraid we’re not willing to take the next step.” Then he spoke of the custom of warring tribes to hold a jirga before the fighting began, to discuss how many losses they were willing to accept (?), since the victors were expected to take care of the widows and orphans of those they defeated. Now that is religion in action.
I was shocked by Gen. Bashir’s declaration that Osama bin Laden was a creation of America! I think he went too far, but he did make a good point. It came to a point where we had to pour immense resources and the lives of young men and women into searching for Bin Laden and pulling down Saddam Hussein. Bashir insisted that we needed to attack the source of their strength, and that is ignorance. Extremists can prey upon, mislead and recruit the ignorant and the poor.
He is right. And while he did not say this, I would add that our ignorance, here in America, of the people there, has made it easier for such men as Bin Laden and Hussein.
I think all this is why I was so moved by DOR’s words, that the students who studied within their stone walls had become each village’s most carefully tended crop.
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Wouldn't it be marvelous if more school children in these regions could be "tended" with the same commitment that the Afghans direct to their poppy crops each year. I've often wondered why the military (Western and local) don't load more of those sky-borne drones with a product which could be sprayed on the poppies without harming the people in the area and get rid of those "fields of death." If Western countries are agreeable to paying baksheesh (and they continue to do so in many ways that are not always known to the public at large), they could reimburse the villagers for their lost income from poppies, while at the same time reducing the amount of drugs on the world stage. At the same time, USDA (or other agencies in the US and abroad) could introduce additional educational programs at the local level in Central Asia to prepare and educate locals about the benefit of redirecting their efforts to a different crop. What's standing in the way? Age-old corruption (especially at the highest govt, regional and local levels) and the lack of education about the potential value of new crops.
Mahlia
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Mortenson adapted admirably to all of the problems and obstacles that he had to face. As Babi quotes here:
I have to say another ‘Amen’, to Christiane Letinger’s comment about the heroism
of Tara Bishop. How many women could have endured such a life, with a husband/father
gone for months at a time, raising two children, living on a relatively small income supplemented by part time work of her own. Yet Tara not only lived with it,she supported it. Realistically speaking, I don’t believe there is any way Mortenson could have accomplished all he did without that kind of love and support at home.
I am reminded of HajI Ali’s tribute to his wife: “I am nothing without her.”
I don't remember reading it but did Tara don a Burkha while living there?
In 2003 the opium harvest had spiked to almost 4,000 tons and Afghanistan produced two-thirds of the world's raw material for heroin.
That was a staggering statistic to me. I had always believed that the greatest amount came from Columbia.
I want to thank you all for your reflections and thoughtful viewpoints that you each brought to our discussion of Three Cups of Tea.
I wonder will this unparalled campaign continue in that area? So many of these schools are being bombed and trashed by the Taliban?
Will these children be safe while trying to learn? I have many unanswered questions and I must admit that it is due to MY ignorance of the area.
I thank each of you, for shedding some light on a very dark and staggering situation that these loving, kind people must endure.
May we all be blessed with the likes of Greg Mortenson who strives to uplift and climb the highest mountain- the mountain of ignorance.
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AHA- Mahlia, we were posting at the same time. I see that you have also addressed the poppy crops. Poppy crops are $$$$$ and you have answered by question.
What's standing in the way? Age-old corruption (especially at the highest govt, regional and local levels) and the lack of education about the potential value of new crops.
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ALF - Why don't you post some of your questions and let's see if we can answer them before we sign off from this discussion?
I also wondered if since we've shared so much information and learned a lot from sharing GM's experiences through this discussion, whether a new site could be added where we could continue the discussion of the topics we have begun to explore here - more on the region (Afghanistan and Pakistan), the people and their customs, which we have learned are often so very different from those in the West, keep up with the media regarding the published reports about American participation in the region, and any other cultural or educational topic which might be of interest.
From my perspective, this has been a wonderful opportunity to discuss and learn not only about GM's efforts in Central Asia, but to share our own experiences and learn from each other. I'd truly like to see this topical interaction continue in SeniorLearn when we come to the end of the discussion about Three Cups of Tea. Would that be possible and of interest to others?
Mahlia
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Mahlia- you would have to address questions such as these to the powers that be here at SeniorLearn.
Perhaps Joan Pearson could help you with this question.
I'd truly like to see this topical interaction continue in SeniorLearn when we come to the end of the discussion about Three Cups of Tea. Would that be possible and of interest to others?
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I am so glad this book was chosen to be discussed...so many good thoughts and new ideas were uncovered ....I have mentioned reading this book to my poetry group plus some others and I know of at least six who now want to read it as well.. a dear friend and I had lunch today at Cracker Barrel and a woman behind me overheard some of our conversation about feeling a need to respect and help others and joined in our conversation..and we exchanged God Bless yous ...and when we were leaving another lady who had overheard that stopped to talk to me and we ended up hugging each other and again saying God BLess you ...perhaps that is something we or at least me should do more often ...I have a tendency to speak to strangers ie shop clerks etc and thank them or comment on something special I have overheard them say ..people in line , clerks etc ...and I can never pass a baby or a small child by without saying hello and telling the parent what a special child they have,...I dont touch them because I dont want them to think I might be some sort of nut ..since I love animals I also admire them and pet them if the owner says it is okay and in some cases the people I meet become "relatives of my heart" Thank God for GM and for this discussion...GOD BLESS ALL
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
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Three Cups of Tea
by
Greg Mortenson & David Oliver Relin
"The first time that you share tea with a Balti, you are a stranger" a villager tells our author. "The second time, you are an honored guest. The third time you become family." ~ Three Cups of Tea
______________ Three Cups of Tea is an inspirational story of one man's efforts to address poverty, educate girls, and overcome cultural divides. This book won the 2007 Kiriyama Prize for nonfiction revealing the enormous obstacles inherent in becoming such "family." ~ Bookmarks Magazine
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Three Cups of Tea -- Homepage. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/)
Ignorance -- the Real Enemy. (http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=22471)
Synopsis and Biography. (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Three-Cups-of-Tea/Greg-Mortenson/e/9780143038252/?itm=1)
Readers' Guide by the Author. (http://www.threecupsoftea.com/wp-includes/documents/3CTReadingGuide.pdf)
K2 Mountain. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2)
| -- | Discussion Schedule - May 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 6
- May 8 - 14 Chapters 7 - 12
- May 15 - 21 Chapters 13 - 18
- May 22 - 31 Chapters 19 - End
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| . | 1. What made Mortenson particularly ripe for such a transformation? Has anything similar happened in your own life?
2. Is Mortenson someone that you would like to know, work with or have as a neighbor or friend?
3. At the heart of the book is a powerful but simple poliical message: we each as individuals have the power to change the world, one cup of tea at a time, etc. | . |
Discussion Leaders: Andy(ALF43) (WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net)
We deplore the production of heroin, yet we are hesitant when we hear that it is the major, sometimes only, source of income to thousands of poor farmers. Yet from what DOR writes, those profits are funneled back to the warlords who use them to recruit and arm their private armies. Those who tend the crops continue to live in poverty. Obviously the heroin production can be curbed; the Taliban demonstrated that. What is needed is to have a viable replacement ready for these farming economies. I’m ignorant in the field of agriculture, but surely, as Mahlia has said, there are alternatives.
Have you all been enjoying as much as I have the quotations that head each chapter? I found this quote, from the “Warrior Song of King Cezar” that heads Ch. 23, very beautiful.
“If wisdom and harmony still exist in this world, as other than a dream lost in an unopened book, they are hidden in our heartbeat. And it is from our hearts that we cry out,. We cry out and our voices are the single voice of this wounded earth. Our cries are a great wind across the earth.”
I also read the words of Sadhar Khan, and I am struck again by the fact that men of vision-- tough, capable leaders who care for their people -- can be found anywhere in the world. Thank God for them, and I only wish their influence extended farther. Yes, his ‘justice’ takes horrifying forms, but that seems to be true wherever a people are forced to defend themselves, or be prepared to do so, every day of their lives.
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Anna, it sounds like you started a very positive domino effect or chain reaction, just while having lunch. That's wonderful. It's gratifying when others want to hear more about a book such as this. And it's also nice when you find others who have read it, too.
I mentioned Three Cups of Tea at the bridge table the other day, and two of the other women there had also read it. We had been talking about aging and different cultures. One of the women works in adult education, primarily with recent immigrants wanting to learn English. She said her Asian students find it so strange that older adults in the U.S. do not want to live with their children, nor do the children want them to.
I echo Andy’s thanks for the pertinent and helpful comments from everyone here at this discussion. I still feel ignorant, but have also learned much. Pakistan, and Afghanistan, now receive a much more careful eye and ear from me. I’ve been there, these people are my family. We’re different, but many of our desires are the same, especially when it comes to our children.
For those interested in assisting in Mortenson's work, the link to the Central Asia Institute is below, and also a brief quote from that page.
Central Asia Institute (https://www.ikat.org/make-a-donation/)
At this time, we do not accept material goods. There is no postal system in the regions we serve. Transport of material donations - after packing, taxes, customs, shipping by jeep, donkey and porter - is very expensive and counterproductive to our limited overhead and low operational costs. We choose instead to support and thereby stimulate the local economy by purchasing the necessary school and building supplies within the region. Your monetary contribution will have greater impact.
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Gosh, I look at that quote above, and the whole thing just seems so miraculous. One man's efforts, and he's done it on a shoe string. We used to do something in my church cirlce called "least coin," where at every meeting we would contribute the least coins in our purses, much like the "Pennies for Peace" started in his mother's school, and they would join other least coins from around the world. I don't know why we no longer do it, as it did much for many. I think Mortenson has shown that least coins, like the widow's mite, can go a long way in helping to change the world.
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PEDLN - your description of the former "Least Coins" donations sounds like it would be workable in today's economy. Have you suggested it recently to your church group - perhaps as a project for the Children's, Youth or Scouts programs (individually or combined). As I write, I think of the jars of coins in my household. Your comment will be an excellent encouragement to take them with me to SS this weekend. I've already distributed a notice about the "Pennies for Peace" program and encouraged the kids and adults to undertake this venture.
I've really enjoyed this discussion and shared a lot of the comments with friends in the area, in my SS class and with lecture audiences. Three Cups of Tea has been a popular read across the country in various audiences. I mentioned this discussion in a recent discussion about the book and it was easy to move from the book itself to the creation of this site so that many of the previous posters in SN can continue to learn and share their opinions. I understand from the Director of the area Library that she has checked out this site herself.
I, too, have encountered the utter dismay by Asian families (and those from other ethnic backgrounds) about the American disinterest in having multi-generations living together in the same home. But I always counter that there are some families which follow this age-old tradition. I was raised in a home which included grandparents, parents and me. My mother lived with us for many years until the Lord called her.
BABI - indeed there are replacement crops which could be introduced, tended and harvested in Central Asia that have no relation with poppies. After I retired from the Univ. of MD (UM), I worked with USDA HQ in Washington DC for several years. During that period, I met many delegations from a variety of countries - including Central Asia - where detailed discussions on this very topic were held. Prior to joining UM, I'd also worked with agriculture folks at Montana State University (MSU) in Bozeman, and although we did not host as many international delegations as were invited to USDA in Washington, those who did visit the campus were always interested in crop rotation or the success rate of introducing totally new crops. Thus, I know first-hand it can be done. Now if only those folks in Central Asia could find a way to eliminate the "middle-men" they might succeed in ridding their region of the poppies and their vile production. But at the "field level" that is a regional, tribal and clan issue, which as we have witnessed in reading of GM's efforts, also includes some really treacherous folks higher-up. And as we already know from ancient history, the tradition of collecting baksheesh (at numerous levels) is wide spread.
ANNA - keep up your friendly and encouraging interaction with folks whom you meet casually.
Yesterday, when I was in a local drugstore, I noticed a woman waiting at the prescription counter. She was impatient with the Pharmacy staff and kept fidgeting. I observed her for a moment and then decided to engage her in conversation - mostly to get her to stop bugging the staff. Turned out she was from the same area of Maryland where I lived for 30 years. Her grandson graduated from the same high school that my son attended. She is a graduate of the University of Maryland, as are two of her daughters. We shopped in the same store and took our cars to be serviced by the same mechanic. When her prescription was ready, she shook my hand, paused a moment and then hugged me, saying quietly "it's so good to meet someone from home!" I laughingly said "Well, bless your heart" in my best Southern style (which always fails) and we both cracked up laughing, since neither one of us has yet learned how to offer that comment at the right time or in the correct tone of voice!
Mahlia
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I have to say another ‘Amen’, to Christiane Letinger’s comment about the heroism
of Tara Bishop. How many women could have endured such a life, with a husband/father
gone for months at a time, raising two children, living on a relatively small
income supplemented by part time work of her own. Yet Tara not only lived with it,
she supported it. Realistically speaking, I don’t believe there is any way Mortenson
could have accomplished all he did without that kind of love and support at home.
I am reminded of HajI Ali’s tribute to his wife: “I am nothing without her.”
Mortenson is very aware of how much he owes his wife. I think it's worth quoting the last paragraph of his acknowledgments:
"Most of all, I owe immeasurable gratitude to my incredible wife, Tara. I'm glad we took a leap of faith together. You are an amazing companion, confidante, mother, and friend. In my frequent absences over the eleven years of our marriage--to the rugged Pakistan and Afghan hinterland--your love has made it possible for me to follow my heart. I love you."
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Thank you Pat- I believe that is a perfect ending to our story. One step at a time- may we all continue sharing our blessings.
Thank you again everyone for your participation in this discussion.
Andy
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MAHLIA, I was surprised and delighted to learn from this book that apricots,
cherries and other fruits could be grown in the mountains. I guess I always
associated fruit orchards with warmer climates.
This book contained so many surprises and opened up a new 'neighborhood' to me. This has been one of the best discussions of the many I've enjoyed
with my SN/SL friends. My heartfelt thanks to our leaders and to the generous minds and hearts who posted here.
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Guess what? Greg Mortenson was on Fox News today speaking about the 100 million "Pennies for Peace" he has raised.
They said that Three Cups of Tea is now mandatory reading in the military to promote understanding of the area and build relationships.
Babi- that is so sweet that you've enjoyed your new "neighborhood" here.
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Andy, I tried to find that bit about Mortenson on FoxNews, but was told that page was unavailable. But I did find a link to an event that brought out Fox News, which was the Mom’s Choice Award special event with a 90 minute presentation by Mortenson, and a presentation to Mortenson by Mom's Choice at BookExpo America yesterday morning. I’m not familiar with Mom’s Choice, but the two sites below feature Mortenson on their blog and in their magazine. Did any of SeniorLearn's lucky New Yorkers get to either?
MomsChoice and Mortenson (http://momschoiceawards.blogspot.com/2009/05/special-event-with-greg-mortenson.html)
Mortenson Featured in Mom'sChoice Magazine (http://www.momschoiceawards.com/documents/Entro%202009%20Greg%20Mortenson.pdf)
When do they announce the 2009 Nobel Peace Awards? From what I understand, there are 205 nominees. Mortenson is up there along with President Obama and France’s Sarkozy.
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I have read the book, and I have followed avidly all the comments on the book.
I have to say thank you to the people who made this site available to us, and
thank you to all the commentators.
A link to the Fox News discussion with Mortenson is to be found here : -
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=5494839&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ (http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=5494839&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/)
Brian.
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ALF, that's great news. It looks like Mortenson's lecture has made an impression in our military circles.
Wow! 205 nominees, PEDLN? That's tough competition, but I'm rooting for
our boy. Now I need to go look up Francis Sarkozy.
Glad you were with us, BRIAN. Do let us hear from you more often.
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Before we leave this discussion, I want to put in a word of praise for the other Author, David Relin. He didn't change the world, but he did a remarkable job of making a good narrative out of the story. He interviewed a lot of people and spent a lot of time and effort getting all the little details that make a vivid story. And I bet it was like pulling teeth to get all the extra stuff out of Mortenson.
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I recall that earlier in the year, while Chaps and his family were still stationed in Europe, he mentioned that he along with his fellow Chaplains and soldiers were reading Three Cups of Tea.
As they read, Chaps sent occasional cultural questions to me, I responded, and then his two kids got interested. They also started reading the book, as well as the children's publications, discussed Pennies for Peace with their classmates and friends on post, carried Listen to the Wind in their backpacks on two Mission trips to Eastern Europe, and encouraged friends their age to read (and reach out) as well. From this experience, they learned that 3 cups of tea and listening to the wind works in varied cultures. And that's a good thing!
This has been a most enjoyable discussion and hopefully has served as an encouragement to learning more about the region and neighboring countries, cultures and the residents of many backgrounds who reside in the region.
Sa'alam to all!
Mahlia
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This has been a great discussion, which has gotten me thinking on some things I know too little about, and given me a picture of a most remarkable and unusual man. Many thanks to the DLs for doing such a good job of shepherding us through it.
Mahlia, thanks for your many insights. Your idea of continuing these conversations elsewhere is a good one if you can figure out how to fit it into the SeniorLearn framework.
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This has been a wonderful discussion of a great book.Thanks to all of you.
Mahlia: do you know another book we could read to carry our understanding of the region deeper? Perhaps we could continue rhis with another book for reference?
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Thanks to every one of you -- you've all helped make this such a memorable discussion. I'm soglad we read Three Cups of Tea, and now I mention it often to others. Some have read it, some have not.
We had a guest preacher today. (He's actually a lawyer, but a good guy when the preacher needs a sub.) I was unaware it was Pentecost Sunday, and was one of three who wore no red. But the preacher said, "Pentecost reminds us to embrace other people and other cultures." I told him afterwards, that fit right in with what I'd been reading. And he had read it too.
This is a book that has changed behavior. How else whould they have collectd enough funds to build 78 schools. When I tell people they built their first school for $12,000 they are amazed. The cost has gone up a little bit, but a small group in a small New Jersey town raised enough to build another school. It took them from 2006 to 2008, but they got together $35,000 for the Central Asia Institute.
We will all be watching for Greg Mortenson, his friends, and the Central Asia Institute. God bless them all
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Once again, allow me to thank each and everyone of you who have so generously contributed time, comments and personal experiences to this discussion.
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Thank you, Andy(ALF43), JoanK & Pedln.
This discussion has been locked and will be archived.