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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lovingfrank/lovingfranktitle2.jpg)
Before the publication of Loving Frank in 2007, few details were known about the love affair between Martha (nicknamed Mamah) Borthwick Cheney and the legendary architect Frank Lloyd Wright. The two met in 1903 when Mamah and Edwin H. Cheney commissioned Wright to design a new home for them. The strong attraction between Mamah and her Frank led to a very publicly conducted affair that scandalized Oak Park, Illinois. Shunned by society, haunted by the press, the lovers decamped to Paris in 1909, leaving behind their spouses and children. They lived abroad for a year. Scholars have relegated Mamah to a footnote in the long, tumultuous life of America's greatest architect.
Loving Frank is based on years of solid research that has unearthed letters, diary entries, and newspaper headlines. With remarkable restraint and great sensitivity, Nancy Horan has blended the known facts with novelistic imagination to create a compelling narrative of a dramatic, ultimately tragic love story. Rich in period detail, the story is told in Mamah's voice and vividly portrays the conflicts of a woman struggling to reconcile the roles of wife, mother, lover, and intellectual one hundred years ago.
Please join us for the May discussion. ~ Ann & Traude |
Links
Brief Biography of Frank Lloyd Wright (http://www.oprf.com/flw/bio/index.html)
Taliesin - Slide show (http://www.taliesinpreservation.org/visitorsguide/slideshow.htm)
Chicago Landmarks (http://www.cityofchicago.org/Landmarks/Architects/Wright.html)
Save Wright (Preservation) (http://www.savewright.org/)
Frank Lloyd Wright & Mamah Cheney (http://marriage.about.com/od/thearts/a/flwright_3.htm)]
The Edwin Cheney house - photos with Nancy Horan (http://my.journaltimes.com/post/wright-in-racine/photos_and_text_c_2008_mark_hertzbergnbspnbsp_nbspthis_is_wh.html)
| Discussion Divisions
---Part One -- May 1st-May 10th
---Part Two -- May 11th-May 21st
---Part Three -- May 22nd-May 31st |
Questions to Consider ~Part Two
1. What do you think of the relationship between our two lovers, now that they will be living together, on the ship and in Europe?
2. Do you find it hard to read much of Frank's reaction to Mamah's devistation over the headlines in the home newpapers?
3. Mamah is free and she wants to take advantage of this new found freedom. Would we all feel this way, in this situation?
4. How does Catherine's response to the journalists who question her make you feel? Do you have empathy for her?
5. And after reading Edwin letter to Mamah, did you feel sorry for him?
6. The death of Mattie has really saddened Mamah. Wouldn't we all feel this way? Have you lost an old and dear friend in the past few years? Or did you lose one early in your life?
7 Are we being told early on that Mamah has a drinking or drug problem?
Discussion Leaders: Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM) & Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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Welcome, readers!
We are opening early just in case someone wants to comment early. Due to previous arrangements, I will be gone on Saturday and Sunday so am leaving the schedule up for you. I have asked Traude to take my place for the weekend but if she is not here due to other circumstances, please feel free to answer the questions and comment and maybe ask some questions of your own. See you all on Sunday night, if the creek don't rise and the good Lord's willin'.
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I'll be checking in.
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Oh, its so good to see you, MaryZ,
Did you receive my email about the discussion?? I am off to the post office but will return soon.
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Can't you just see trouble brewing in the marriage in the opening chapters? Mamah doesn't even see it coming - - seems to be blaming poor Edwin simply for being himself - kind, content with simple things - (boring and predictable?) How can she help from being critical or at least, uncomfortable with her life with Ed, when the architect (commissioned by Ed) pronounces - "We are ourselves what we appreciate, and no more." Right away we know FLW has her full attention.
From the book jacket, quoted here in the heading -
While scholars have largely relegated Mamah to a footnote in the life of America's greatest architect, author Nancy Horan gives full weight to their dramatic love story...
Yesterday's Washington Post ran a huge article in the Home section on books written on FLW - 50th anniversary of his death. I'll try to find the link later - but I found this interesting -
There were of course, the turbulant relationships with women such as Maude Miriam Novel and Olgivanna Hinzenberg...Rizzoli
No mention of Mamah?
Will be watching closely to see if she was just another conquest among many - or if the architect is as smitten with Mamah as Horan will have us believe.
Edwin commissioned FLW to build a house for the family in IL. Did he ever build it? Is it still standing?
This should be a fascinating discussion...
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We lived in Lakeland florida for a short period of time. Near one of the many lakes, where I walked there was a FLW museum of some kind. I'm not sure if it was an estate of one of his "newer" buildings. Does anyone know or have heard of this?
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Here is the link to the center at Lakeland that features the FLW photos, drawings and furniture in his association with Florida Southern College http://www.flsouthern.edu/fllwctr/index.htm
And this is a great site with links to all the FLW buildings, Centers, Gardens, Tours etc.
http://www.artmarketing.com/FrankLloydWright%20links.html
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Annie, I did get your e-mail - thanks. I haven't read the book, but am a great fan of FLW and his buildings. I'll mostly be lurking.
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MaryZ,
I'm glad you are lurking but please do comment on anything you are interested in discussion.
In your books, do you have the book discussion questions in the back??? And do you have the interview with the author? Good interview! She explains how she wrote the book and why she chose Mamah Cheney?
I just got back to my computer and I want to thank Alf, JoanP and BarbStAubrey for leaving tempting posts.
Barbara, the links are a good way to see what he was doing throughout his life. According to another book about FLW, the period in this book is called his Prairie House period.
And, yes, if Mamah didn't see what was happening in her marriage, we certainly could see where she was going. Are you as amazed as I am that an affair this public went on the in early 1900's? And, Edwin's response was very strange. Is that the Victorian streak of personality in him?? He seems very restrained and careful to me.
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Ann, as I told you earlier I will be out of town for some time during this discussion, DARN! I liked the book when I read it some time ago - was it a year or two ago? How fast the time goes.
As I remember, Mamah (what a stupid name, how did she get it?) is unbelievable and I won't disclose any reason for those who have yet to read the book.
FLW is still memoralized in architectural circles, but I have no idea why. I have seen two of his homes and while I understand, and even admire, his ideas of structures blending in with the environment, his interiors seem less than homey; in fact they seem downright cold.
When I return on May 15th and a book is available at the Library I shall been in to read the posts and add a post or two.
Have a great discussion! He is worthy of one.
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Is it "form follows function or "function follows form" - I can never remember that quote exactly. And to understand it?
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Ella,
I don't know the answer but I would think that its "form follows function" if one is speaking of the impact of the design creating the way one lives in FLW's houses.
But, what I also want to say here, this is Mamah's story and her impact on FLW and her own world of women being freer than they have ever been before. We didn't even get the vote until around 1923? This lady was already trying to have a life that mattered (to her) and maybe her writing would have made an impact on the suffragettes who were so active around this time.
Her ideas were so similar to the suffragettes but I didn't find the writing strong enough to support this. The author has some copies of Mamah's letters to the Swedish philosopher and she says this helped fill out the story. There just isn't much out there about Mamah or her affair.
Now, I say that, but I have also seen pictures of headlines in the Chicago papers with stories about these two lovers.
Here's a link to Wright's Prairie Style houses. Beautifully done!
http://www.delmars.com/wright/flw2.htm (http://www.delmars.com/wright/flw2.htm)
I had forgotten that Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead" was supposed to be a ficionalized story about these two lovers.
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I have just started to read this book and I am reading it on my Kindle. It is really interesting to me. I am sure this will be be a rewarding read and a good discussion.
Joan Grimes
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Hello, everybody, and welcome.
The long and very detailed timeline about FLW's life and accomplishments, including many photographs, has only a sparse sentences about Mamah Borthwick Cheney. It was quite deliberate. The eager young architects who became his disciples in Taliesin West feared that the scandal surrounding Mamah's and Wright's living together without benefit of marriage would tarnish the master's reputation. But FLW had an eye for women, and other scandals were to follow - later.
"Loving Frank" is Mamah's story told from her perspective. Her full name was Martha Borthwick Cheney, Mamah her nickname. She was born in 1869 and earned a BA from the University of Michigan. She worked as a librarian in Fort Huron, Michigan. She married Edwin Cheney when she was thirty. They had two children, a girl and a boy. When she met FLW, she fell head over heels in love. Frank had six children with Kitty Tobin, his first wife.
Annie asked, "Is Mamah's tragic story relevant today?" An excellent question.
I believe it is, especially when young children are involved. Is it selfish for a woman to follow her heart and leave the children behind? Does an unsatisfying/unhappy marriage justify such an extreme step? Our local book group had a very animate debate about that.
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Ah, Ella, not so stupid a name when you know "Mamah" was a nickname given to little Martha by her grandmother. I read that it is pronounced May-muh - so let's all practice that out loud now so we sound as if we know what something if we are discussing the book in person with anyone. May-muh! Is this how your f2f book club pronounced it, Traudee?
It sounds as if we are supposed to be admiring the woman for leaving her husband and little children for this man. I've only read the opening chapters - so far shé does not have my sympathy. Back to the book!
Ann - Fountainhead? From now on May-muh will look like Patricia Neal to me. (I liked Patricia Neal...maybe I'll come to like May-muh too!)
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I read this book several months ago and am not going to get it back out of the library. Too many other books to read. But as I feel a comment coming on, I'll post it.
As for the two main characters, I didn't like either of them. Too selfish, but maybe that's because I was raised in a more self-less atmosphere. But, in defense of them, love makes us do strange things.
Nancy
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Nancy, Thank you for coming by. It's good to know you will be following this discussion. If anything strikes you and you feel like posting about any aspect of this story, you know you will be welcome.
What is noteworthy of course is the fact that this story did not come from the fertile imagination of a romance writer but it [ireally[/i]happened to real people - one of them world-renowned - a hundred years ago, and books are still being written about them, like other star-crossed lovers in history.
The italicized pages, a sort of introduction, are written in the first person and could be a journal entry, either real but - if not - very well invented. The year is 1914, a significant milepost.
In the next chapter we read how it had started, several years earlier. The narrative proceeds in chronological order. It is obvious that Edwin Cheney and Mamah were mismatched, which Mamah discovered a lot earlier than her husband. FLW was clearly a charmer. His dynamism, his plan to revolutionize architectural concepts and the work he showed her (her neighbor's house), proved irresistible. Edwin Cheney, who loved order and precision and "simple things" could be no competitor. The attraction was strong, mutual and not acted on originally.
The new house FLW had built for them was finished, except for a garage. Planning and building it became a pretext, a convenient subterfuge for casual meetings. At the time Mamah had only one child, John, and still lived in her family home with members of her family. No wonder Edwin Cheney longed for a home of his/their own!
At some point Mamah pulled back from FLW and discovered she was carrying Edwin's child. A year (two?) after the birth of her daughter Martha she reconnected with FLW. This time all barriers fell. Interestingly enough, it was she, Mamah, who sought him out (at the lecture)! She had also cultivated FLW's wife, Catherine aka Kit.
JoanP, we can only shake our heads in dismay at such heedlessness and irresponsibility. Both in their early thirties, they behave like teenagers, oblivious to any consequences. This is definitely not admirable behavior. But it happened!
Joan, in our f2f discussion we pronounced Mamah the way it is written. We had only the afternoon :) to do justice to the book.
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Still in the clutches of some kind of bug I continued my reading in bed last night and pondered the questions.
I am so glad Annie got Mamah's picture in the header (not many are available); it gives us something to focus on. Look at the face, the intelligent eyes, the (to me) almost challenging look, ready for debate : the face of a strong-willed woman, insisting on the rightfulness of her passionate dreams and on her way to make them a reality. It is amazing how she is able to convince herself that her actions ARE justified. Can mutual folly ever be morally justified? For my part I think not.
We are given to understand that FLW had dalliances with other women before Mamah, and certainly during their breakups - which Mamah learned about. Still they were drawn together like magnets. We know they discussed their respective divorces.
"I haven't shared a bed with Catherine in more than a year," FLW tells Mamah. Whether true or not, isn't it interesting that this convenient "excuse" is still being used today, one hundred years later?
Inevitably, Catherine Wright learned of the relationship and confronted FLW, asking for one year
"to think things over". He informed Mamah and then, inexplicably for her, stopped contacting her.
She lapsed into "moods" and periods of silence during which members of her household, especially Edwin, tip-toed around her. Sister Lizzie, who had her own apartment in the new house, ran the household. Mamah, in what can only be called her obsession with FLW began looking for him at various active building sites, waiting for him for hours at one site. He never came. One day Mamah, trying to confide in Lizzie, learned that Lizzie already knew of the affair, and that Edwin had probably put two and two together by now as well.
But once again, the two magnets reunited on a dark night on a deserted building site. FLW told her that he been offered a position in Germany and pleaded with Mamah to go there with him. For her part, Mamah had been invited a while earlier to visit her old college friend Mattie and her family in Colorado. Impusively Mamah decided to accept the invitation and to stay for a period longer than originally anticipated by either of them.
"Why are you doing this to us?" asked Edwin when he saw her and his children off at the train station.
"Do you think you are the first woman to fall for this jackass? For Christ's sake, come to your
senses!"
"Please, Ed. I need some time", she answered.
Speaking only for myself, it is a lot easier at this point to sympathize with Edwin than with Mamah.
Do you think Mamah has a valid defense?
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Well, Traude has certainly given us the Readers' Digest version of this period in Mahmeh's life. Very nice, Traude!
I find both of these people off putting as they tear up their children's lives for there own satisfactions. But, when I seriously think about their obsession with each other, I find myself wondering if I could do that. After all is said and done, I don't feel that Mahmeh's decision was totally wrong for her. And that's just her decision! She seems so confused and undecided one minute and then totally dedicated to leaving her family and joining FLW in Europe. Given such choices, wouldn't we (I) be in the same dillema?
In the book, I seem to find Mahmeh's part in all of this rather weakly written. I can't get my head around her reasoning about her own life's goals. They seem very paltry to me.
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Ann,
Yes I think we would be in the same delimma. I agree that it seems to be the right decision for her at the time. I think that maybe there is always the thought that in such a situation that things will work out as far as the children are concerned. Even today when there are so many divorces , people do not seem to realize what they are doing to their children when they dissove their marriage. Both of my daughters are divorced and I don't think either of them thought that the divorce would have the effect on the children that it did. But then when we are so emotionally involved do we ever see what the real results might be. Even if the two parites involved peacefully settle the issue of the children there are going to be negative effects on and resentment from the children. But then if one stays in an unhappy marriage then the results may not be what we desire either. So it is a delimma no matter what.
This book has really captured my attention and I am enjoying reading it.
Joan Grimes
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Thank you, Ann and JoanG, for the points well taken.
There's no doubt the author's retelling of this historic affair and its disastrous consequences is objective to the extent possible, though her sympathies clearly lie with Mamah. The writing may be weak and unconvincing for the reader but that, I believe, may be due to the lovers' ambiguities and inaction regarding divorce from their respective mates.
They talked about divorce, but nothing more. They had ben meeting furtively for five (5!) years and conceivably might have continued if FLW's wife had not found them out. And still they wavered. Mamah's trip to Colorado was a temporary cop out.
Mamah married Edwin in 1899, the same year Frank married Catherine. In 10 years, Frank and Catherine had six children. He told Mamah that his marriage "hadn't worked" for years and she believed him ... because she wanted to believe. A reader might not be so credulous.
In addition to Martha and John, Mamah and Edwin were raising Jessica, the daughter of Mamah's and Lizzie's sister Jessie who had died in childbirth. Altogether they left 9 children behind ...
For what it is worth, only one (!) of the women in our f2f group, the mother of six, widowed at a young age, was able to fathom leaving her children for a lover.
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Traude,
Why do you think Nancy Horan gave her book the title, "Loving Frank"?? I can only guess and I would think that maybe she entitled the book that way because the whole story comes around to the consequences of "Loving Frank". He was so in the news of that time for his designs of houses and other buildings, that it had to be a chore, for Mahmah, to keep some kind of evenness to her life---their lives??? Maybe!
JoanG,
Yes, divorce does affect the children more than the parents?? Well, it hurts them a great deal. I have a friend who divorced her first husband because he was so unemotional(her description)which seems to fit Edwin Cheney. Do people like Edwin think that if they don't blow up and stay calm, everything will turn out all right??
Maybe, a "don't rock the boat" attitude? He certainly didn't have anything good to say about FLW as he watched Mahmah board a train and go off to Colorado with their children. That's the only time he actually seems to have an emotion over the affair.
And what about telling Mahmah that happiness will come if she justs acts happy? Suuurrrrrrre! I believe that one! Not!
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Ann, in answer to your question.
Nancy Horan chose the title because she believes that Mamah truly loved Frank. Mamah herself believed it. I'm not sure they used the term "soul mate" in those days, but we have reason to think - on the basis of the book - THAT is what FLW was for Mamah. But I have the uncomfortable feeling that Mamah was also something like a handmaiden to him.
At the time FLW was not yet as famous and still in the early stages of his career. He had been noticed abroad.
Unfortunately children are often "collateral damage" in a divorce, especially if the separation is bitter. The process called 'mediation' can be helpful to arrange an amicable arrangemet, but some mates are so embittered that they categorically refuse to sit down at the same table with the partner and the mediating attorney to discuss financial issues, custody of children and visitation rights civilly.
In haste.
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I have to keep reminding myself that this all happened over 100 years ago in order to appreciate the extent of the scandal. Especially for a woman - to leave her husband and live openly with another man, both of them still married! And of course, we are reeling at Mamah's hardhearted behavior - leaving her young children as she did, all the while wringing her hands how difficult it will be for them.
Let me get this right - Frank and Mamah are both still married. Frank tells Mamah that Catherine wants him to wait a year before they talk about divorce. I'm wondering just how truthful he's being with Mamah. He's walked all over Catherine, now he seems to be manipulating Mamah. He knows she can translate German. How convenient. Why not take her along to Berlin - with all the benefits. Notice the name of the novel is not "Loving Mamah." I question his feelings, his motives. I think he's using her.
I don't feel so bad for Catherine - I think she has been there before and that if she ignores the affair, it will go away. It always does.
Loving Frank....yes, Traudee, Mamah might believe she loves him. They are soul mates - he appreciates her, after all. Isn't that what love is all about - being recognized by a superior man? Mamah seems to believe that. She desperately tries to justify leaving the children. They have nannies now. They don't need her. Of course that's not true. We know she's going to have to realise that.
Poor Edwin. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't have much choice, does he, Ann? I'm interested in the timing - when was Martha conceived? Are we sure she's Edwin's? She's three when Mamah leaves.
I went on a search for the house FLW build for the Cheneys - check this out ~
The Edwin Cheney house - photos with Nancy Horan (http://my.journaltimes.com/post/wright-in-racine/photos_and_text_c_2008_mark_hertzbergnbspnbsp_nbspthis_is_wh.html)
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JoanP, a WONDERFUL link! It's so good to have this information about the house at this time.
Thank you.
Mamah spoke Geman and French; she had entertained the idea of translating poetry into English and also begin writing. In Boulder she waits a few days before confiding into Mattie. Like Lizzie, Mattie does not approve. Mamah is stung when Mattie tells her that she has led a privileged life as Ed's wife, though it is true enough.
When Mattie cautiously asks about Martha, Mamah blushes and says "She's Ed's." Well.
Ed worshipped the ground Mamah walked on. He was solid and reliable, Mamah says so herself.
Did he have flaws other than "simple tastes", like Cuban cigars, to much of an orderly mind and not a reader? I believe Mamah, the youngest of the girls, was spoiled.
Obviously Mamah dad not seriously considered a new life in Boulder living in a boarding house alone with the children in a low-paying job. Besides the children missed their father, especially John.
Then came Frank's letter (page 77).
I wonder what you think of the letter? To me it sounds like a business proposition, or a summons.
But it was all Mamah needed. And off she went in the middle of the night ...
Mercy!
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There's an article about the Guggenheim Museum and the Larkin Building (FLW's first commission) in the current Newsweek magazine. Click here (http://www.newsweek.com/id/195658) to get to the story.
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maryz Many thanks for the excellent link. What an interesting article! "hot-shot architect".
He must have been that. A visionary, an innovator, a genius.
And as a man?
JoanP, Ed Cheney gave Mamah a divorce, but Catherine Wright held out until 1922 (!). A revenge of sorts?
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Joan
I wondered about Martha's conception also but weren't FLW and Mahmah more or less separated at that time?And I am cynical about his excuses that he uses not to be with her. Probably most married men who want to have a fling will use the "we haven't been man and wife for years" for a reason to be with another woman. Its really common!
Having said that, I must remember his own words quoted by friends. Maybe he felt more than we give him credit for. In a book full of FLW quotes remembered by his friends, he says, in 1912 about Mahmah, "... I love the woman who has cast in her lot with me here not wisely but too well. She too has her remunerative work -- as I have. She is quite able to supply her own needs -- and we work together ..."
Source: About Wright: An Album of Recollections by Those Who Knew Frank Lloyd Wright, page 73.
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Joan,
That is a wonderful link and really adds a lot to the book itself. I love the Faust connections, just amazing!
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Ann, I thought it was interesting that Nancy Horan lived seven blocks from the Cheney House, walking by every day. She says in that link that she did not want to judge anyone - just present the story and leave the rest to the reader.
"Does that mean I have to play this hand to the bitter end, full of regret? Knowing I might have had the happiest life imaginable with the one man I love more than any other I have ever known?"
I keep reading Mamah's question to Mattie - over and over again. Because of the children, the answer is always "yes" - but in my heart of hearts, I feel I understand her dilemma. One life to love - and the discovery of what it feels like to really be in love.
Mamah believes it is fate that has brought them together, that they were meant to be. Yet, she realizes the danger...
"What am I after that I court disaster standing here in this field with you. "
I don't think she's really planning to give up the children. She couldn't do that, could she? I don't think she's thinking clearly. Mattie sees the situation as it is.
Mamah has always been reckless, she says. And she gets Mamah to admit that Frank has persuasive powers -
"Pretty soon you start seeing things through his eyes.
He shows you how much better you can live."
Does this sound like a suffragette speaking? What exactly is a suffragette/suffragist anyway?
What sort of change does she advocate?
FLW - the "hotshot" architect is focused on his work. But he has no problem leaving his children or taking the star-struck mother from hers. I don't think he's really planning to leave his children. Mattie gets it right , I think, when she says - "The man's values have flown right out of his abstract windows."
I see a man with no values and a woman who believes that he is her only chance at happiness. I find it difficult to care about either one of these two. The children have my pity. I'm interested to hear how they weathered this abandonment.
I think I'm going to have to pay closer attention to FLW's architecture - that I can appreciate. Not so certain about those low ceilings though - he himself is short in stature. He seems to be a rather self-centered architect, doesn't he?
Have you ever seen the commercial - the famous, haughty architect who asks the perspective client, "What can I do for you?" (you need his intonation) and she reaches into her purse and pulls out a faucet, saying, "design a house around this." His eyebrows shoot up - as if he has met a real challenge. Do you think he's supposed to be FLW?
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If one remembers, Mahmah married Edwin because her parents were so worried about her single status at an advanced age. Don't ask(her age), I don't remember. ;) And he was acceptable to her parents. I cannot imagine what it would be like to marry when I wasn't sure of my feelings.
Yes, they do come off as Star Crossed Lovers. Lovers that poetry is written about. There are a few quotes from FLW concerning Mahmah. Because if he meant what he said about her after her death, he did care for her, deeply.
Did we leave a question about Shakespeare's sonnet 116?? This is in my book.
Shakespeare writes " Let me not to the marriage of true minds /Admit impediments. Love is not love/ That alters where it alteration finds..."
How does the relationship of Mamah and Frank bear out the sentiments of Shakespeare's sonnet? What other famous love matches fill the bill?
How about Wm Randolph Hearst and Marion Davies???
By the by, I love the quote about having "to play this hand to the bitter end, full of regret? Knowing I might have had the happiest life imaginable with the one man I love more than any other I have ever know?"
The poor woman was besotted! She had never felt this way about any man.
"But what about duty and honor, says Mattie." Hmmmm, what about it??? Again the Victorian thread of thought or is it? If one is trying to a moral person, what does one do??? Remember the woman in "The Bridges of Madison County"? She chose to be faithful to her husband and their family.
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Ann, "besotted" is the right term. And the author gushes a little too much IMHO.
Mamah married at 30 And Mattie was 32 when she married; both a little beyond the "marriageable age". In this connection we might think of Lily Bart in Edith' Wharton's The House of Mirth written in 1905, or perhaps Emma Bovary by Gustave Flaubert.
A good part of this immortal love seems to have been red hot passion. Whatever was between them, it cannot have been easy for her, especially in view of the extremely close relationship FLW had with his mother. She lived with him and Catherine; she lived with him and Mamah in Taliesin. Mrs. Wright made no secret of the fact that she disliked Mamah; she treated her shabbily. But we have yet to come to that, of course.
Other famous lovers? Well, there's Emma Lady Hamilton, one of the most beautiful women of her time, and Lord Nelson, the hero of Trafalgar.
And then there's the Irish-(or English-born) adventurer and dancer Lola Montez, the mistress of mad King Ludwig the First of Bavaria, who made her Countess of Landsfeld and banished her after she meddled in local politics. An interesting life she had, before and after ... She toured the U.S. and died in New York.
Of Hearst and Davies I know only what is suggested in the movie Citizen Kane with Orson Welles. I'd like to think, though, that the relationship between Mamah and FLW was on a somewhat higher plane (for wont of a better word).
Duty and honor may have been Victorian values, but - together with responsibility - shouldn't they still be valid considerations now - no matter how much the bed-hopping, sparsely clad celebrities of our day attract the ogling, salivating multitudes?
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Do you think Mamah married Edwin because her parents were concerned that she had passed the "marriageable" age? Or did she make the decision on her own? She admitted to Mattie that her prospects had slimmed down in Port Huron after college.
Ironic, isn't it? She married him because she wanted to have children - and now it's the children who are making it such a difficult decision to get out of the marriage. But when was Martha conceived? Wasn't it at the same time the house was under construction? When she was dallying with the architect...I'm sorry, when she was falling in love with FLW? She tells him that she is pregnant and so they stop seeing one another for two years or so ...I'm not convinced that she was conceived during the construction - by Edwin, while she feels this passion for Frank.
I'm having a tough time answering the first question in the header. "Is Mamah's story relevant to the women of today? "
I was about to say "yes" - that Mamah's behavior is more like that of a "modern" woman, until you both remind me of some of the great passionate loves of the Victorian Age. Will Mamah really leave the children, though? That seems be against the nature of a woman - in any age. Right now, she doesn't seem to be thinking clearly. She's not thinking of giving them up to Edwin permanently - or is she?
Still, isn't the last scene heartwrenching - when she leaves them with Mattie's nanny to wait for "daddy" to come and get them - while she takes off with her true love. I can't stand it! And to think that this really happened!
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JoanP, perhaps I have been too harsh on Mamah. What right do we have to judge? But it DID happen, no matter how hard the Wright scholars tried to expunge FLW's part in it.
It is abundantly clear from the text in the links that she did leave the children (in the middle of the night, we are told by her) and sailed off to Europe with Frank, who dazzled he people on the ship, that they posed as man and wife (!), and that Frank, when asked how many children they had, boldly said "Nine", at which time the company at table complimented Mamah on her appearance ...
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I just cannot judge Mamah so harshly. I have not walked in her shoes. True I cannot see myself leaving my children but still how do I know. I have not been in her place.
At first I had a hard time admitting that I felt the way that I have just expressed here but I do. So if you all think I am terrible because I feel that way so be it.
I am so glad that I read this book.
Joan Grimes
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hahaha, JoanG! No, I don't think you are a terrible person - at all. In fact, we probably all have one great love that we put aside for one compelling reason or another - but still wonder what life would have been had we followed our hearts.
You're right - it's the children that we can't get past. Traudee, I maintain that Mamah did not intend to abandon her children when she took off for Paris with FLW. She knew that their father was coming for them. She planned to come back. She just wanted to test the waters, to see what would happen if she went with Frank for a trial period. Granted, 6 months is a long time for a time-out from the children. That's what I don't understand.
Here's a question...does FLW really believe that Mamah will be able to stay away from her children for any length of time? Why would he think that? How can he be in love with such a cold-hearted woman?
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Frank Lloyd Wright was an utterly selfish person. He was completely self-centered. I am sure that he felt that he was such a prize that Mamah would be able to stay away from her children as long as she had him.
What I have trouble with is why did Mamah not see this. But I suppose that when one is so much inlove that they are looking at the person through "rose-colored glasses". That must have been it.
Joan G
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I am reading back away and really enjoying the way the author made Mahmah such a kind mother. I love her story about her father being a railroad man (after he was an architect) and how she was born and grew up('til age 6), in Boone, Iowa where they were not afraid of wild things. She says that they were wild themselves.
She remembers killing chickens for eating and a copperhead snake. Her father's rule for the children was "Anything we found, we could raise". So they adopted a litter of baby mice whose mother had vanished. They fed them with an eyedropper and tried to keep them, but they also ran off. Her sister( is this the old maid sister who moved into Mahmah and Edwin's new home?) loved the horned tomato caterpillars and they were her babies Once they had a skunk for awhile, named Petunia.
I love these stories that Mahmah shares with her son, John. About the note she left in her bedroom floorboard when they moved away. She seemed to love that prairie land so much. She was six when they left.
I know this is the fleshing out of Mahmah by the Nancy Horan but it does make Mahmah more human, not cold. And some of this may be true.
And somewhere, we might find what her father and mother were like.
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I've been trying to match that happy little girl on the Prairie with the woman who could leave behind her own little girl. She's going to do it, isn't she? Reckless, without any thought for how the children will adjust. I think of that little girl, "not afraid of wild things. She says that they were wild themselves. Wild, that's how Mamah seems to be now, doesn't she?
I looked up "suffragette" - which I learned is really a derogatory term. The correct tern is "suffragist." The wild child now wants more than the vote, as she marched for women's rights -
It's 1909 I couldn't have imagined that back then we wouldn't have suffrage by now.
All the talk revolves around getting the vote. That should go without saying. There's so much more personal freedom to gain beyond that."
There's so much more personal freedom to gain beyond that
Is that it? Does Mamah feel constrained by her role as wife and mother? Does she value freedom, above all else? Above her children? It's almost as if she feels entitled to her freedom - as strongly as she once felt women were entitled to the vote.
Now what do you think of the fact that her father was a train man - but first he was an architect. Do you think that this is part of the attraction to FLW? Will she follow him the way she left the happy life on the Prairie to follow her father, the train man.
I'm ready to read on - but in my heart, I know that Mamah will not be able to forget those two kids - even though she believes she can.
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JoanP, throughout this first part I have wondered how serious Mamah really was about women's suffrage = women's right to vote. The women who fought, marched and petitioned for that right were called suffragettes, a logical derivative of the term, not only in this country but also in Europe, notably in the Netherlands, and in Sweden - as we will shortly see in Part Two.
The leading promoters of suffrage in this country were Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1815-1902) and Suan B. Anthony (1820-1902).
Stanton and Anthony met at the Women's Rights Convention in Worcester, Mass in 1850; both attended the Women's Convention at Seneca Falls in 1851. Neither lived to see their dream fulfilled. But the movement continued to grow.
In 1918 President Wilson showed support. Ratification of the Nineteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which granted women the right to vote, took 2 more years.
The right to vote is a privilege many women take for granted these day and, sadly, do not always exercise. Yet women still do not have full equity. Though some have broken through the glass ceiling, women still do not receivet equal pay for equal work done by men.
How serious was Mamah in her quest? Was it the independence of women generally, or also the right to vote? We don't know. What we infer from Mattie, Mamah enjoyed the company of men (she admits it herself) but was not overly concerned with effectively searching for one to marry, unlike Mattie. Mamah may well have been what we call "a party girl" nowadays. Edwin pursued her
untl she finally said "yes".
Edwin made it easy for her. He was the perfect foil, and she walked all over him. She took classes, had assignations with FLW, was active in her club, organized an amateur presentation of "The Taming of the Shrew", and left the children to a nanny and running of the household to Lizzy. Without any compunction she abandoned them in Colorado in the middle of the night, alone in a boarding house, to "honeymoon" (her words) with FLW.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lovingfrank/lovingfranktitle2.jpg)
Before the publication of Loving Frank in 2007, few details were known about the love affair between Martha (nicknamed Mamah) Borthwick Cheney and the legendary architect Frank Lloyd Wright. The two met in 1903 when Mamah and Edwin H. Cheney commissioned Wright to design a new home for them. The strong attraction between Mamah and her Frank led to a very publicly conducted affair that scandalized Oak Park, Illinois. Shunned by society, haunted by the press, the lovers decamped to Paris in 1909, leaving behind their spouses and children. They lived abroad for a year. Scholars have relegated Mamah to a footnote in the long, tumultuous life of America's greatest architect.
Loving Frank is based on years of solid research that has unearthed letters, diary entries, and newspaper headlines. With remarkable restraint and great sensitivity, Nancy Horan has blended the known facts with novelistic imagination to create a compelling narrative of a dramatic, ultimately tragic love story. Rich in period detail, the story is told in Mamah's voice and vividly portrays the conflicts of a woman struggling to reconcile the roles of wife, mother, lover, and intellectual one hundred years ago.
Please join us for the May discussion. ~ Ann & Traude |
Links
Brief Biography of Frank Lloyd Wright (http://www.oprf.com/flw/bio/index.html)
Taliesin - Slide show (http://www.taliesinpreservation.org/visitorsguide/slideshow.htm)
Chicago Landmarks (http://www.cityofchicago.org/Landmarks/Architects/Wright.html)
Save Wright (Preservation) (http://www.savewright.org/)
Frank Lloyd Wright & Mamah Cheney (http://marriage.about.com/od/thearts/a/flwright_3.htm)]
The Edwin Cheney house - photos with Nancy Horan (http://my.journaltimes.com/post/wright-in-racine/photos_and_text_c_2008_mark_hertzbergnbspnbsp_nbspthis_is_wh.html)
| Discussion Divisions
---Part One -- May 1st-May 10th
---Part Two -- May 11th-May 21st
---Part Three -- May 22nd-May 31st |
Questions to Consider ~Part Two
1. What do you think of the relationship between our two lovers, now that they will be living together, on the ship and in Europe?
2. Do you find it hard to read much of Frank's reaction to Mamah's devastation over the headlines in the home newpapers?
3. Mamah is free and she wants to take advantage of this new found freedom. Would we all feel this way, in this situation?
4. How does Catherine's response to the journalists who question her make you feel? Do you have empathy for her?
5. And after reading Edwin letter to Mamah, did you feel sorry for him?
6. The death of Mattie has really saddened Mamah. Wouldn't we all feel this way? Have you lost an old and dear friend in the past few years? Or did you lose one early in your life?
7 Are we being told early on that Mamah has a drinking or drug problem?
Discussion Leaders: Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM) & Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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MaryZ,
After I opened your link, the timing in the article didn't fit with our story. I thought when he built the Cheney house, he was out on his own. But according to the timing in the Newsweek article, he was still with Sullivan and Co. And he is 35 in 1902? Hmmmm! Maybe I getting his age and Mamah's mixed up.
Our book says that she was 30 in 1901?? and the article says that FLW was 35 in 1902. Well, I guess they weren't as far apart in age as I once thought.
And, the Larkin building was his first. I wonder if there is a picture of it. I will look!
Here is an article about the Larkin building from Great Buildings:
http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Larkin_Building.html
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Sorry that I have not been here in the last few days but I have been so busy with my family over the Mother's Day weekend that I did not have computer time. Now I am so worn out after all of the weekend activities that I can hardly think.
However it was a wonderful weekend !!!
Joan Grimes
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JoanG
Glad you had a great Mother's Day weekend and glad that you are back with us. Do try to answer some of the header questions as we go on to Part 2 of the book. Let us know what you think of these folks as they try to get through their complicated lives.
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I did look for a picture of the Larkin building but so far no luck. From a MapQuest map provided by the link above, it looks like Buffalo put in a freeway, in 1950, where the Larkin and many other buildings once existed.
But with this building, FLW put himself on the map due to this quote:
""I think I first consciously began to try to beat the box in the Larkin building [Wright said years later]. I found a natural opening to the liberation I sought when [after a great struggle] I finally pushed the staircase towers out from the corners of the main building, made them into freestanding, individual features."
— Frank Lloyd Wright. from Peter Blake. Frank Lloyd Wright: Architecture and Space. p55.
"It is interesting that I, an architect supposed to be concerned with the aesthetic sense of the building, should have invented the hung wall for the w.c. (easier to clean under), and adopted many other innovations like the glass door, steel furniture, air-conditioning and radiant or 'gravity heat.' Nearly every technological innovation used today was suggested in the Larkin Building in 1904."
— Frank Lloyd Wright. from Frank Lloyd Wright, Edgar Kaufmann, Ed. An American Architecture. p137-138.
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Just awful, my memory. Please, Ann, refresh my mind - what exactly was the Larkin Building?
I did look up the luxury hotel, Hotel Adlon in Berlin (http://hotelsoftheworld.com/germany/kempinski-adlon/kempinski-hotel2.htm) where the lovers began their "honeymoon". It must have been brand new at the time - built in 1909. I wanted to check to see if it had been bombed during WWII. Located right next to the Brandenberg Gate, somehow it escaped.
Wasn't it interesting to read that she and Edwin had honeymooned in Berlin too?
At least Mamah is showing signs of missing the children while surrounded by luxury - We see her thinking of young John, crying into Franks lapels as the pair of lovebirds danced to Shubert. Oh how I want to see her react to the absence of these children!
She cries again at the opera - Faust of all things! Did you notice Frank's black cape - and then Mefistofele's red one. She looks at Frank's handsome face, knowing that she has succumbed to the beauty of his face.
And then we come to the crux of the matter -
How could anyone condemn Faust, so desperate for a piece of happiness that he would sell his soul in order to say - "Yes, for a brief moment, I was truly alive."
Are we to believe that Mamah is not that unusual? That most people who are tempted in this way will sell his soul, anything for a brief moment of happiness?
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Whoa, I hope not! His soul??? That was his spirit. Was anything worth his spirit??
Do you remember that Mamah's sister, Lizzie, referred to FLW as "the cape"?? She had a good sense of humor.
I wonder what happened to the little niece that they took in when Jessie, Mamah's oldest sister, died?? Her name was Jessie also.
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Faust and his soul
Legend has it that an old German scholar promised his immortal soul to the devil in exchange for knowledge and power. The theme captured people's imagination and the legend has endured in music and art. Almost two centuries before Johann Wolfgang von Goethe wrote his two part drama "Faust", Christopher Marlowe (1564-93) wrote "The Tragical History of Doctor Faustus".
It is astonishing to realize that the lovers have been together for five (5) years before they sailed to Europe. It will be interesting to see how the actual LIVING together develops. FLW's detailed timeline contains many photos of him in his cape, his face and the famous mane.
And his houses. One of the most acclaimed was Falling Water, photographed numerous times. The Larkin House, I take it, has the distinction of having been Wright's first one. Interesting to see him rearranging the furniture in the posh hotel :)
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Here's the link from Wikipedia about the Larkin Building. It was an office building in Buffalo, NY.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larkin_Administration_Building
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Many thanks, maryz. I admire anyone who has the ability to post links and compose headers.
Alas, that is not one of my talents. Thank you again.
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Thanks for the information on Faust, Traudee. As I'm reading Part 2, I find myself wondering how much of this is fact, and what parts are fiction. Do you think Mamah and FLW actually attended this opera - or is this a bit of Nancy Horan's imagination at work, comparing FLW to the evil Mephistopheles - red cape/black cape?
We do see Mamah writing in her diary. (What does a grown woman write in a diary? Her innermost thoughts and concerns forher children? Her feelings about her love for FLW, as a teenager might write of her boyfriend - or perhaps it's a touristy journal of all the sights she is seeing in Berlin? If this is what she's writing about - then it is very possible that she recorded attending the opera and her reaction it.
Was there an actual diary? Did Nancy Horan have access to this diary? That would be interesting to know, wouldn't it?
On p.35 - back in 1907, two years before she went off with FLW, we read of a diary entry - which may be an indication of the kind of diary Mamah kept...again, was this taken from an actual diary that Nancy Horan used for her research?
August 20, 1907
I have been standing on the side of life, watching it float by. I want to swim in the river. I want to feel the current.
We do know that the newspaper clippings from the Chicago Sunday Tribune were real - and that the portrait of Mrs. E.H. Cheney was the size described in the book - filling nearly a quarter of the page.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lovingfrank/mamahnewspaper.jpg)
This was really big news, wasn't it? Whose reaction was more extreme, did you think? FLW or Mamah's?
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Well, JoanP, I think that their reactions were different but very strong in both of them. And, Mamah has to deal with the newspapers and the death of her best friend, Mattie. She cries and goes to a church to meditate on her relationship with Mattie.
While Frank curses and swears and throws the newspaper at the wall. While he is having a fit, Mamah immediately plans for them to move where the journalists won't find them. In other words, she takes up the mother role that she was so good at and sees that they are out of gossip's way.
You know, she is a suffragette, in her feelings and in her and Mattie's reaction to the movement before they were married. Remember the Colorado trip where they passed out flyers and the men were so upset that they cornered them on the street, making fun of them. And, Mattie, sweet and quiet Mattie, tells them what she and Mamah are struggling to accomplish for the women of the world.
I can't even imagine what it would be like, not to vote and to have the same rights that men do.
Have you seen the movie about the suffragettes back then? "Iron Jawed Angels" is the title. Very powerful movie. We watched it a few months ago. Amazing women!
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I am having a difficult time answering the questions in the heading because I have read on in the book and I cannot even remember some of the things that are asked about. It has always been difficult for me to read slowly if I like a book.
I do remember that I had no empathy for Catherine at all. I also remember that I was not sorry for Edwin because I always felt that he had really insisted that Mamah marry him in the first place...she did no ever seem to really love him. I think she only married him because she felt that she was getting older and she did want to have children.
" The death of Mattie has really saddened Mamah. Wouldn't we all feel this way? Have you lost an old and dear friend in the past few years? Or did you lose one early in your life?" At my advanced age I have lost most of my old friends. I find that I am usually the oldest in my group of friends now. I have continually made new friends throughout my life. I did lose a close friend a year or so ago who happened to be the exact same age as I was. We were born on the same day of the same month of the the same year. Of course it did upset me...but I quickly moved on since I knew that she had never had the same outlook on life as I had. I still think of her at times. Of course since I have lost two husbands I know that I have to move on, no matter how difficult it is.
I think the fact that Mamah and Frank are so hounded by the press must have been horrible.
I am sorry that I cannot answer the questions better.
Joan G
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JoanP, Horan's extensive research is very much in evidence. The book, of course, is billed as a novel. Hence the conversations between the lovers, as indeed any conversation between charachters, can be assumed to be the author's work.
There is an interview with the author on record but I am unable to effectively link. It answers all sorts of questions in which we too are interested.
Here is the link but it does NOT work for me.
http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/index.fcm?author_number=1480
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Here is a link to the interview with the author Traude.
http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/index.cfm/author_number/1480/Nancy-Horan (http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/index.cfm/author_number/1480/Nancy-Horan)
Is this the one that you wanted Traude?
Joan G
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On Page 110 we read "On a whim they'd gone to a meeting of the local suffrage association that June to meet new friends. There was a woman passing out flyers ..." On a whim.
To meet new friends. Hmmm
In the same paragraph Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Carrie Chapman Catt and Frederic Douglas are mentioned. All three promoted specifically voting rights: Stanton and Catt for women; Douglas for blacks.
But voting is not mentioned in the text right then and the narrative half down to page 111 gives the impression that the two young women were addressing social and practical issues (even child labor) and more independence for women. Without telling them (or even thinking!) that their lot might improve if they had the right to vote.
By the time they get to Europe they have had an affair for five years. Mamah is 40 years old. She is an educated woman. FLW already has a name and a professional reputation. Is it possible that neither of them anticipated the reaction at home?
Of course it was Mamah who was considered the hussy, the temptress, a monster. In such circumstances women are blamed automatically. Men are more easily forgiven, and that was true in this case.
And it hit her hard. But how could she not have foreseen that? In what phantasy world had she lived all these years? Then she meets Ellen Key, the feminist "who didn't bother herself with the vote" (page 128).
On page 135 Mamah tells Ellen: "But I worry about the children. And I'll run out of money soon enough. Edwin certainly won't send me any."
"What about Frank?", asks Ellen.
Mamah answers "He doesn't talk much about money. But I think he has only enough to support himself through this project." Support himself. Hmmm
FLW punched a hole in a flimsy wall once but he had his work to rely on and decided to ignore it all, certain they would eventually be left alone by the press hounds. It was harder for Mamah. The idea to move to less conspicuous quarters was HIS, but it fell to Mamah to pull the chestnuts out of the fire, do the footwork and make it happen. Mrs. Wright Senior is being mentioned more and more often - it bears watching. We know she was always close to her son; she had lived with him and Catherine in the same house.
Then Catherine broke the silence Frank had counted on. She aimed straight for Mama while swearing unwavering loyalty for her husband who, she said, was sure to return to her and the children. Frank's oldest son was 19 at this time and in college. Catherine remained firm and refused to give Frank a divorce --- until 1922, that is.
When pouring her heart out to Ellen after the lecture Mamah old her that she had read the English translation of Ellen's book "Love and Marriage" done by Ellen's English translator in London, and that "it lacked soul." Ellen looked indignant.
Then Mamah added "I read parts of it to Frank. He said the translation is a poetry crusher. It is too British, too stiff." Thanks to Ellen, Mamah became financially self-reliant.
What do you think of Ellen's more radical pronouncements, to wit
"Love is moral even without legal marriage."
"But marriage is immoral without love."
Well, Mamah bought them, lock, stock and barrel.
JoanG, wonderful, Joan. That's the one. Hats off. Many thanks.
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I haven't been commenting often because I returned the book and am reading others. The story of Mamah and FLW is no longer fresh in my mind. But your comments have brought the story back to me a bit.
I commented early in this discussion that I had no sympathy for either character - especially Mamah. Men have reputations as women-chasers (not that I condone that either). But for a mother to leave her children is awful. I don't care the reason.
I found myself in a loveless marriage, but survived for 27 years until both my children were out of the house. Then I followed them. Funny, when I did, my daughter asked, "Mom, what took you so long to leave Dad?"
So, I guess, according to Ellen, my first marriage was immoral. But my second one made up for it.
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Ann, Mamah took Mattie's death really hard. I've lost several friends recently - one was probably one of my very closest friends. I was supposed to go up to NY to see her when she went into the hospital for surgery - let her talk me out of it, wanting to wait until she got home. I guess I will always regret that. She died in that hospital. I think I know how Mamah felt - but at least I hadn't left my children with a friend who had just had a baby! Mamah had a reason to react as strongly as she did to the news of Mattie's death.
Remember the woman in the café who helped Mamah when she collapsed after reading the obituary notice? She was described as a rather "eccentric-looking" woman. I was certain that this woman was going to be "somebody" in the story - I thought she was going to be Ellen Key.
Ellen Key played an important role - she freed Mamah's conscience - made her confident that she was not such a monster after all. M. even got up the nerve to sit down and write a letter to 8 year old John - her first since she had left home.
Nancy, do you remember getting the impression that the author, Nancy Horan, was trying to justify Mamah's actions by spending so much time and ink on Ellen Key's philosophy?
I don't think Ellen Key's ideas were very different from what Mamah had been thinking - but it was heartening to Mamah to hear that someone else was championing her perspective.
Traude, yes, Ellen's words certainly hit home regarding the immorality of staying in a loveless marriage. This too eased her conscience.
Frank reveals - (is this Nancy Horan writing?) - that he thought Mamah could stand leaving her children when she told him - when they were back in Chicago -
"You can't keep your children by having no life of your own. Your own unhappiness will plant seeds of unhappiness in your children - and they will blame you."
Maybe Frank believed her words - maybe that's what gave him the strength to leave his own six children.
I'm wondering if Nancy Horan believes there is truth in this belief too. Do you feel the rest of the book will attempt to convince us of this?
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Nancy, your # 56 is very much appreciated and I thank you.
What we can consider the action begins in Part 2, which I finished re-reading today. Now it remains to be seen how everyday life evolves, first in Berlin, then in two locations in France, in Italy, and back to Berlin.
A few interesting facts about FLW have emerged, filtered of course through Mamah's adoring eyes.
For my own satisfaction I'd like to check some of them. I have just started reading a small 168-page book about FLW and Mamah. I need to know more about Catherine and the circumstances of their lives before 1909.
JoanP, the interview with the author, graciously linked earlier by JoanG, gives some good answers to some general questions.
Have fun in TN.
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Nancy,
How awful it must have been to be in a loveless marriage for so long. But you are happy now and I assume things are going very well.
I have SIL whose loveless marriage was put to the test with the death of the youngest child (she drank some furniture polish at the age of 2 1/2). When the father didn't respond to my SIL's overwhelming grief, she put the marriage to a test by leaving for two weeks to visit an old friend. The reactions to her return were happy cries from her three children. Whereas, the reaction of the husband's return from a business trip were not that meaningful for the children. As she has said, the man was not a bad person, he was just very cold. She tried for a little while longer and trying to talk about it with him, but she felt that she just had to get a divorce. Luckily, she found a loving man shortly thereafter, married him and went on with her life, as a very caring wife and mother.
In my own thoughts of Ellen Keys words about great love, I find her thinking very deep and meaningful especially when Mamah reads from "Love and Marriage". After all, this is Keys' own philosophy and she has thought it through and come to her own conclusion. And what Mamah reads to Frank is quite well written.
Keys believes that love means only one thing:"the enhancement of life" and therefore, one love or many loves accomplish this. Well, she defends multiple loves as normal and maybe needed by some men. And, that is where she leaves me cold as she does seem to only be considering the "men".
I love Nancy Horan's words that next come from Frank. "Finding you was like finding a safe place to think again". But "you make me want to be a better man" sounds like Jack Nicholson lines from "As Good as it Gets".
Here is where we part ways, as there are many loves in one's life, one has to consider the love given between husband and wife, between parents and children, etc etc. Each of those loves enhances our lives. When one is so self centered as to discount the other loves, where do our lives all go??
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Pitkins, Ann. Poor little Jessie, hardly mentioned in the tale, has left the household to live with her father's family, the Pitkins. Hopefully she was better off than she would have been living with the beleaguered Wrights. I imagine that Lizzie will miss her, but Lizzie has her hands full with Martha and John right now.
I get the feeling that the rest of the book will be an attempt to convince us that everyone was better off than continuing on in a loveless marriage for the sake of the children.
Do you wonder if Mame's life would have been different if she and FLW had never crossed paths?
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Yes Joan P,, I do wonder if her life would have been different .Would she have gone on with her life as it was without loving her husband, continuing to fill it with other things . I wonder if she and FLW were really star crossed lovers or if another man might have come along that she would have fallen in love with. I really want to think that she and FLW were meant to be together. I guess it appeals to my romantic soul to believe that they were meant to be.<smile>
But why do I have to try to make what they did all right by my standards. Really things like this do happen all the time. I probably am trying to reconcile it because I so want to think better of FLW. I really think he was a low life inspite of all his talent.I need to realize that I can appreciate his talent inspite of the way he lived his life. I don't usually have such a problem with this sort of thing.
Joan G
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In the book, "The Women" by T.C. Boyle (which is also fiction), the author has FLW going home while Mamah stays in Europe. After Christmas that year, he tells Kitty, his wife, that he is leaving her for Mamah. That Mamah is his "soul mate". He informs her that he will moving up to the family land in Wisconsin where he will purchase more land to add to it, and then he will build a home for his mother who wants to return to Wisconsin. She, at that time, lived in a small house behind the Wright's home in Oak Park.
He goes up to Wisconsin and begins to build the house which is actually for him and Mamah, who is still in Europe, studying and translating for Ellen Key.
JoanG,
Its hard to believe that he was just a gigalo when you read these books about him as he is always presented as such a pearl! But in "The Women", the author does manage to paint a picture of a man who ran up huge debts and wasn't even concerned about how they would be paid. That his wife, Kitty, opened a day care center to be able to support herself and the 6 children.
Once again, we are reading "historical fiction" and really don't know which happenings to believe because the authors have to flesh out their characters and happenings for our enjoyment in reading the books.
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On CBS Sunday Morning today, they did a segment with T.C. Boyle - mainly about the fact that he lives in an FLW house in CA. Interesting piece. You might be able to find it on the CBS web site or on On Demand.
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Thanks, MaryZ. I will go their website and see if its available.
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maryz. Thank you. I did not see the CBS program.
T.C. Boyle's book is "The Women" and I had mentioned it earlier in this discussion. It is a comprehensive endeavor that does not deal much with FLW's buildings but expansively chronicles his relationships with women. T.C. Boyle also uses a narrator: a fictious Japanese apprentice.
In the interview with the author, linked by JoanG, Nancy Horan explains why she wrote LF. Clearly, Mamah meant a great deal more to Frank than the terse official statistical annotations can express. And in LF Nancy Horan set out to correct an unfairness. After all, they were in this together.
LF is our source, but I believe it is inevitable to also consider information from other sources that might help us evaluate FLW more objectively than Mamah could. Based on Horan's extensive research, LF is beautifully written. It is fortuitous that she was given access to Mamah's letters to Ellen Key - whom Mamah worshipped. But the dialogue between Mamah, Frank and others is clearly the novelist's reconstruction.
IMHO we don't need to approve or disapprove of Mamah's and FW's actions. It is painful to even fathom them. But this is their unalterable story. Like JoanG, I believe it was one of the great love stories of all time. What was and still is much harder to "swallow" is their elopement, which has been dubbed by some as "Hegira", after Mohammed's flight from Mecca to Medina. And to abandon nine children in the process is indefensible. They were magnetically attracted to each other. And I believe Mamah could never feel the same way for any other man. Of course she was never put to the test. They were in truth ill-starred and ill-fated.
It is difficult to ask questions on Part 2 - in order not to convey information before readers have come to the end of this part. But we can mention some salient details about Frank.
* He had a mercurial temper.
* He was capable of exploding in anger, e.g. when he punched a hole in the wall of the rented rooms.
* He was careless with money - often broke, and slow to repay people from whom he had borrowed.
He did not pay his sons, John and Lloyd on a regular basis. True, architects depend on commissions and have to pay contractors and building materials. Getting paid could take time. That may well have been the reason for the frequent turnover of the apprentices who flocked to him.
Then Lizzie wrote that accordin to "rumors" FLW left behind an unpaid grocery bill before sailing.
Were these just rumors?
* FLW was possessive, as we see in the book. He was outraged when Mamah told him she needed to go to Leipzig for two to three months to study Swedish in the total immersion process, as Ellen Key had demanded. He insisted that he needed her to be with him. But this was one battle she won.
We can see that Mattie's sudden death was kind of a wake-up call for Mamah. BTW, I don't think M. had an alcohol or drug problem (question 7). The cough syrup incident seems to have been a one-time thing. Thanks to Ellen Key she was able gain a financial footing. Mamah was totally taken with Ellen Key and her theories.
She was 60 years old when Mamah visited her, the first guest in a large house by the lake. From all indications she was alone. She had no children. But had her emancipation made her happy?
Her influenced waned even in Europe, where she was popular and well known. But her ultimate hope that "the human race will evolve to higher plane where there won't bea need or laws regulating marriage and divorce."
page 129. To Mamah, Ellen's words were like manna from heaven.
Mamah had gone wit Frank our of her free will. With him she lived in Berlin, then went with him to France and then to Italy. She loved Fiesole (pronounced F-e-AY-sola) - the e at the end is heard, as in guacomole or Beyoncé), the terraced housing on the hills above Florence and she wad happy there. She would have liked to settle there and wished nothing more than have Frank build a house there. His son Lloyd and a young man from Utah had joined Frank in Fiesole when Mamah was still in Germany. Catherine allowed it on condition that her son's paths must never cross Mamah's. And they did not. In time Lloyd went back to Oak Park. Frank and the apprentice from Utah labored in a different part of the rented house and Mamah had little contac with the young man
Will this idyl be permanent?
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FLW and his works are part of my art history background and I am a fan of his work. As a person he was known to be difficult. I think I will pass on his love life. It is possible to admire the artist without being interested in the personal. I find that is often true for me in these discussion which often center on just that.
claire
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Good morning, hello Winsum, dear old friend. I am so glad to see you here. Thank you for your post.
Your point is well taken, and JoanG has voiced a similar opinion.
He was a visionary and an innovator and his work endures, but as a man??
Here is what one of his biographers, Meryle Secrest, said
"One can look at Wright and be awed by the dimensions of ... his achievements ... On the other hand, when you look at who he was as a human being, he was so incredibly at the mercy of his emotions, he's at the other end of the spectrum. He's barely a human being."
Certain things come out in this book but Mamah wears rose-colored glasses ...
We'll also need to elaborate a little more on Wright's Japanese connection; some terms in Part 2 have to be explained so we get the full flavor of the meaning.
I'll be back later after the house-cleaning scheduled for today.
So good to hear from you! Thank you.
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Just started reading this last night so I need to catch up on the posts. Back soon.
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Welcome, Jackie! So glad you are reading along with us. I have spent the day looking for a character in the book. Will return tomorrow.
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Jackie, thank you very much for your # 68 and for your interest in this book. We look forward to your impression and input. In Part 1 the reader meets dramatis personae. The story of Mamah's and FLW life together is sensitively told. The author clearly thought it needed to be told, if for no other reason than to right a wrong. Perhaps it could even be considered an object lesson for women in the 21st century, though I'm not sure THAT was Horan's intention.
Interesting questions arise and comparisons aremade in Part 2 (one of them asks,"Isn't Chicago
cosmopolitan?").
The term "doss house" was new to me and I am not sure if 'flophouse' is the proper synonym. The name of the Wedding district may strike us as odd: it was a part of the city of Berlin where people lived in abject poverty. However, the name has nothing to do with weddings. A footnote would have explained that, but of course only in a work of nonfiction.
We have three more days to discuss our thoughts and feelings about Part 2 before we cme to the final revelations.
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I found my character yesterday and have read this about her:
http://jhom.com/personalities/else_schuler/index.htm
Else Lasker-Schuler! Quite a well known artist, poet etc by 1911.
Having met our Chicago born lady when Mamah struggled with her grief over her friend, Mattie, Else remembers her and takes her into her crowd at the Cafe des Westens where the modernists meet on most days. She explains the Modernist new arts and its place in Berlin while Mamah explains the modern movement going on in America. She places FLW as one of the most important people in the American movement and says that in her home, the architects are the poets and artists.
Question:
Why does our author include these Bohemians and their world in this book??
Do you think that this helps us understand where Chicago and Germany stand, pertaining to the arts, in 1911?
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Ann, I'm afraid only the author herself could answer this question.
All we can do is speculate, but I believe we can assume that Horan wanted to outline Mamah's own odyssey, where it led her, whom she and he met, or is likely to have met, beyond the official record - such as it is.
We know Mamah and Wright took the night train to Berlin; we are not told WHERE in Europe the ship landed, which may have been either Southampton or, more likely, Le Havre in France. Berlin was chosen because of Wright's business dealings with this Mr. Wasmuth. FLW was up and about every day, and Mamah walked adount the city. Distraught after hearing about Mattie's death, she happened into the Café des Westens, where a good Samaritan comforted her.
Only later in the story does the reader learn who the somewhat unusually-attired woman was: Else Lasker-Schüler. The Bohemian fringe Horan describes continued to exist in Berlin until the beginning thirties. Fortunately Else left Berlin for Switzerland in 1932 and later Jerusalem where she died in 1945.
In Berlin Mamah met Wasmuth's wife and the four went to the opera, but the women were not congenial.
FLW argued with Wasmuth about the cost of printing the portfolio and the slowness of the process.
Soon restless Frank took Mamah to Paris. Some time later she went to the city of Nancy where she met Ellen Key. After some months she spent in Leipzig to study Swedish, Mamah joined Frank in Fiesole in the hills above Florence. Fiesole dates back hundreds of years. It is there that Giovanni Boccaccio is said to have written his "Decameron" (Il decamerone, in Italian).
Mamah felt happy there. Frank was restless.
He also was not quite honest with Mamah, did not tell her about correspondence he had received from Oak Park.
Then Frank announced that we would return to America. He had it all planned. A done deal.
Question : What did you think of Mamah's decision to return to Berlin and stay there by herself?
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Hello everyone - and hello Claire! It has been a while! I can understand your interest in an artist's work - apart from his/her personal life! Frank Lloyd Wright is quoted in this book - expressing his strong feelings that an artist's work must be self-centered to be worthwhile - everything else, family, relationships must come after, once he has expressed himself through his art. Would you say this is true of most artists?
I wonder if Mamah Cheney really understood that. How must she have felt when she learned that Frank was telling people he had returned to Catherine on his return to Chicago? Perhaps she dismissed it as tabloid journalism - wearing rose-colored glasses as Annie says.
Traude, I think that Mamah went to Berlin alone to prove something to herself. She felt the need to be independent, to have her own income. Perhaps she sensed this was necessary if she was to enter FLW's world. I was a bit surprised to learn of his financial situation, weren't you? I thought he was a wealthy architect who had made a name for himself at this point. Am I wrong? Mamah seems to be getting stronger as a person - without a husband - or a male escort,moving comfortably in the bohemian circles she now feels a part of.
She seems to fit right in - living on little as they were, her underwear threadbare, we're told.
JoanG - I was interested to read on p. 185 that she left Ed because her marriage had been "all wrong." So maybe she'd have left him even if FLW hadn't appeared on the scene.
As for the children, she's convinced herself that children need happy people around them...and she wasn't happy. HM
Do you think that's true? Or do you think that young children need their mamas, happy or unhappy? Are you beginning to sense some regret on her part?
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It occurred to me that LF is an ode to love or perhaps Horan's ode to Mamah, lovingly and credibly complementing
what is known for sure. Still I found it necessary to look upo ther references to supplement, for example, FLW's "Japanese connection".
Somewhere in Part 1 he tells Mamah how much the clean, simple lines of Japanese architecture impressed him. When she suggested that the style had influencedhim, he heatedly protested that it was HE who set trends, rather than BEING influenced (!). An early sign of supreme self-assurance.
He had designed the Imperial Hotel in Tokyo in 1890 to replace a wooden structure and it was a huge success.
A few years later, when his marriage to Catherine was already in jeopardy, he visited Japan with Catherine and another couple. That's when he bought and brought back a number of priceless of pieces of Japanese art. In fact he sold part of it to finance his voyage to Europe.
We have seen how much Mamah risked and gave up. But that was true for FLW as well. By 1909 he had designed some 25 houses and was widely known. He had obviously never imagined the furor their flight would cause and that his livelihood was at stake.
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To read this book for the second time has brought me new insights, and I have benefited from your thoughts and input. This discussion has been much more detailed than is possible f2f in a few afternoon hours. In this regard our discussions here are unsurpassed IMHO.
As we head into Part 3 we are aware that there was a horrible end to the idyl in Taliesin, even as we discover that not everything was milk and honey. Now a question has occurred to me and keeps haunting me. It may be premature and, furthermore, I am no friend of speculations like "if only we had done such and such instead of so and so, imagine where we could be today"! or variations thereof.
But let me please give voice to it any way.
Is it really possible that this grand passion could have lasted?
Might FLW have become bored with Mamah as he was of Catherine?
This colossal egotist, poor misunderstood husband!, had the audacity to complain to Mamah that Catherine did not give him enough attention and devoted all her time to the household and the six children who arrived like clockwork every other year or so!
What else could she have done?
And Mamah in turn displayed the same flagrant disregard for her own family.
Let's see what Part 3 reveals to us.
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An interesting question, Traudee. Could the grand passion have lasted into old age, the strong-willed artist and the "feminist" who yearns for freedom! Too bad we will ner know the answer. It's an important question, I think.
I find Mamah confusing much of the time. She seems to want to be her own person, make her own decisions, be respected - and yet she allows FLW to dictate what she wears, where she lives... I see her caving in to his wishes so much of the time.
Perhaps she is just very, very clever and knows how to pick her battles. She does choose to stay in Berlin - and live a life of her own among the artsy crowd. She really doesn't seem to be the stereotypical "suffragette" though, does she? I'm beginning to think that my stereotype is not quite accurate. I thought it was all about the right to vote.
I was amused to read the questions her landlady is asking her about the Women's Movement -
"Should women be allowed to exercise naked at the gymnasiums?" Was this really an issue now? Were men doing this in Germany, I wondered.
Exercising naked was something men did in ancient Greece, did you know that? The Greek word, gymnasium means "a place to be naked." I'm wondering if this was one of the "rights" that women were seeking in Mamah's time - in Europe?
Mamah is "finding little excitement in translating Ellen Key's Woman's Movement" - and yet at the same time she
wonders whether her translation will cause a revolution in the movement in the US. I wasn't quite sure why it would cause a revolution if it wasn't all that exciting. Or maybe it is just Mamah who isn't all that excited about Ellen's philosophy...
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Before moving on to Part III - I just had to look up the frequently mentioned Froebel Blocks (http://www.architoys.net/toys/toypages/froebel.html) that young Frank used to play with. Now that I see them, I realize my own boys played with the same blocks - but none of them turned out to be architects!
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JoanP, of course, Fröbel's blocks! Thank you for mentioning them.
Friedrich Fröbel, born in Germany (1782-1852) was a great influence int he field of education, and so were
Johann Heinrich Pestalozzi (1746-1827), a Swiss, born in Zurich,
Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925), an Austrian, and
Maria Montessori (1870-1952), the first female doctor of medicine in Italy.
The methods of Steiner and Montessori are still taught in this country in schools bearing their name(s).
It must have been like lightning our of a clear blue sky when FLW told Mama he was returning to the U.S. FLW surely knew she had no wish to go back there at that time -- if ever. The only choice was a return to Berlin to the spartan "Pension" (yes, the highest floor in a building was always the cheapest and the floor up from the Paterre was the most expensive) and started teaching English in a seminary that prepared young women for teaching.
Education was NOT coeducational. She made a meager living, and I can't quite believe she remained only in order to mix with the bohemian crowd. But it is understandable (isn't it, almost?) that at Christmastime she did NOT want to think of her own children in Oak Park without their mother, and preferred to be where this Christian holiday was not celebrated.
The seminary director did not know who Mamah was and when she approached Mamah one day, Mamah feared she had been found out and was going to lose the job. That was not the case. Instead te director asked Mamah to compose letters for poor charges of the comunity to their relatives in the U.S.
Mamah was exhausted and rudderless. When FLW came back for her, she offered no resistance.
The power, the sway he held over her is actually frightening. With the benefit of hindsight we have every reason to wonder how deep his love for and devotion to Mamah really were.
Here is what Meryle Secrest, one of FLW's biographers, said of him:
"One can look at [Wright] and be awed by the dimensions of ... the achievement. On the other had, when you look at who he was a human being, he was so incredibly at the mercy of his emotions, he's at the other end of the spectrum. He's barely a human being.
JoanP, about nudity in a "gymnasium".
A gymnasium in Germany is a school of higher learning that prepares for university and teaches the classics.
In this country, a gym is a sports arena. In Germany a sports arena is called Sporthalle .
In whatever sense the term is understood, I tend to believe that the landlady was incredulous, even mocking Mamah, and far from serious.
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As I'm reading my curiousity about Wright's buildings is overwhelming. Looking for reference material i was aghast at the number of books in my little library (Salem OR pop = 150,000) but I did find that PBS had a Ken Burns show about him in 1998 so I've ordered it. The Talesein site has some items to drool over. Like Wright I have a yearning for things Japanese. How do I see this tragic couple? Not knowing how it ended until I looked in Wikipedia, I still felt a foreboding in the author's descriptions. How could such intense emotion endure? (Just an aside but I have learned through reviewing my own life that my marriage was loveless on both sides so I have no expierence with the love that others seem to have.) To resist such attraction would have required superhuman strength of character, IMHO. Catherine seems to be one of those women for whom motherhood satisfies all emotional needs. Else she was exhausted and too numb to respond. FLW was definitely what is called High Maintenance! Mamah (I stumble over that name every time I read it!) could lose hersef in Belrin, escape from the pull of Frank's need for her and recoup. The bohemians took her at face value, did not judge her. She surely was judging herself, don't you think? Funny, Edwin and Catherine would have been perfect for each other, wouldn't they?
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/lovingfrank/lovingfranktitle2.jpg)
Before the publication of Loving Frank in 2007, few details were known about the love affair between Martha (nicknamed Mamah) Borthwick Cheney and the legendary architect Frank Lloyd Wright. The two met in 1903 when Mamah and Edwin H. Cheney commissioned Wright to design a new home for them. The strong attraction between Mamah and her Frank led to a very publicly conducted affair that scandalized Oak Park, Illinois. Shunned by society, haunted by the press, the lovers decamped to Paris in 1909, leaving behind their spouses and children. They lived abroad for a year. Scholars have relegated Mamah to a footnote in the long, tumultuous life of America's greatest architect.
Loving Frank is based on years of solid research that has unearthed letters, diary entries, and newspaper headlines. With remarkable restraint and great sensitivity, Nancy Horan has blended the known facts with novelistic imagination to create a compelling narrative of a dramatic, ultimately tragic love story. Rich in period detail, the story is told in Mamah's voice and vividly portrays the conflicts of a woman struggling to reconcile the roles of wife, mother, lover, and intellectual one hundred years ago.
Please join us for the May discussion. ~ Ann & Traude |
Links
Brief Biography of Frank Lloyd Wright (http://www.oprf.com/flw/bio/index.html)
Taliesin - Slide show (http://www.taliesinpreservation.org/visitorsguide/slideshow.htm)
Chicago Landmarks (http://www.cityofchicago.org/Landmarks/Architects/Wright.html)
Save Wright (Preservation) (http://www.savewright.org/)
Frank Lloyd Wright & Mamah Cheney (http://marriage.about.com/od/thearts/a/flwright_3.htm)]
The Edwin Cheney house - photos with Nancy Horan (http://my.journaltimes.com/post/wright-in-racine/photos_and_text_c_2008_mark_hertzbergnbspnbsp_nbspthis_is_wh.html)
| Discussion Divisions
---Part One -- May 1st-May 10th
---Part Two -- May 11th-May 21st
---Part Three -- May 22nd-May 31st |
Questions to Consider ~Part Three
1. Do you think that Edwin Cheney's agreeing to a divorce was admirable under the circumstances;
and were the conditions he set for visitations equitable?
2. How did Mamah take the children's initial shyness when Edwin brought them to the camp in Canada?
3. How could Mamah not have been embarrassed by the crude words of the workers outside the house the morning after her arrival (even though they didn't know she was there with Frank)?
What did it cost her emotionally to realize that the people in Spring Green rejected their lifestyle and despised her?
4. Is it possible that Mamah did not foresee that the scandal might erupt again once the press discovered them together? But even if she had, would she have made a different choice?
5. Was Frank effective in dealing face to face with the members of the paper when they came up to the house? Did anything change?
6. After the break with Ellen Key, who had reprimanded her for leaving the children, without even a moderate income of her own, what or whom could Mamah count on?
Did she have reason to feel betrayed when Ellen Key preferred the translation by Mr. Heubsch (variously printed as Huebsch) ? Is fate closing in ?
Discussion Leaders: Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM) & Traude (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
Mrs.Sherlock, of course ! Edwin and Catherine would have been a perfect match -- if they had loved each other! Thank you for your input.
Edwin loved Mamah (I too stumble every time I type the nme!), and Catherine loved Frank Wright.
He and Catherine met at a dance in Chicago when she was 16 and they fell head over heels in love. But Anna Wright, fiercely possessive, had moved house with Frank's sisters and came to Chicago as well. From then ones she always lived close to him, except for the year he spent in Europe.
What he accomplished is astonishing, given the fact that he didn't have much of an education. He had been a farmhand for his uncle for several summers; in his senior year dropped out of high school. He attended the University of Wisconsin for one year, and that was it. In 1889 He went to Chicago, disregarding his mother's protests. Eagle-eyed Anna took it upon herself to warn Catherine's parents who packed her off some place for some time. It was no use. Two years later they were married. Anna made Catherine's life hellish.
For her he built the house in Oak Park to which he added and made changes for years. Catherine was as devoted to him as Edwin was to Mamah. I believe both Catherine and Edwin behaved with great dignity. One has to feel sorry for both. Not to give Frank the divorce was Catherine's only weapon. As the years went by she may have realized that if she were to give him a divorce, he would cut off alimony and support for the children. Doubtless it was also revenge. And Mamah's lofty ideas that all would be well in the end, everybody would sit around the table conversing in harmony, was totally unrealistic.
To the questions.
1. The relationship between the lovers was not always smooth and became rockier as Mamah discovered the mounting debt and found out that the "little people", suppliers, draftsmen and handy men, had not been paid.
He charmed his creditors.
2. I believe Frank was less concerned with Mamah's anguish over the attacks by the press than his own anger.
The irony is, of course, that Taliesin did not bring them peace, quite the contrary. They were hounded even by the people in Spring Green. When Frank brought her back from Berlin he just planted her in the unfinished house ostensibly to cook for the 36 (!) men who were building Taliesin without introducing her in any way (!!). But her true identity came out soon enough.
3. I can't think of an answer to this question because I can't imagine myself in Mamah's situation.
5. Yes, I felt pity for Edwin.
6. Mamah was deeply affected by Mattie's death. And she lost Lizzie's admiration and affection !
7. I do not believe Mamah had an alcohol or drug problem.
Here is what Ken Burns said about FLW:
"At some point, you have to forgive Frank Lloyd Wright for his excesses, his ego, his sensitivities, his horrible relations with his kids, and realize, on balance, that here was an extraordinary contribution to human history."
The prairie house style was his invention and - to his anger - it was widely imitated. It as his concept of an "organic" house that harmoniously fits into and becomes part of the landscape, and is characterized by broad horizontal lines, a low roof, and an open interior.
When we had the discussion of FL, we lingered over a thick library tome, borrowed from the library, of his major
works. And we would have liked to stay much longer.
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If you remember what book had all his projects I'd love to look it up. His Oak Park home is portrayed in a 20-page softcover publication I got from the library. Beautiful pictures of th3e house and its floor plans;,it includes a picture of the whole Lloyd-Jones clan.
The Women seemed like a a good companion to this so I've started it. T C Boyle's Talk Talk was engrossing and he lives in FLW's first California house so he felt drawn to this story. Olgivanna was in her mid 20's when she encountered FLW and was immediately swept away!
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"FLW and his works are part of my art history background and I am a fan of his work. As a person he was known to be difficult. I think I will pass on his love life. It is possible to admire the artist without being interested in the personal. I find that is often true for me in these discussion which often center on just that." Reply #66
I agree with Claire. When I separate FLW's architectural skill from his personality, I can admire him. I would have loved to have him build a home for me. I love the lines of his houses and the fact that they're made of brick.
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Aberlaine, I also agree with Claire about separating FLW's personal life from his skill as an architect. I really admire his work. I would loved to have had one of his houses also. His houses have always appealed to me.
WE have one of his houses here in Alabama. I visited it a couple of years ago and really enjoyed it. I had previously visited one in Chicago. However I like this one in Alabama much more than the one in Chicago.
I have photos of the one in Alabama that I will try upload today sometime. I will put links to the photos here in this discussion.
Joan Grimes
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Joan, the Rosenbaum house in Decatur, AL, is definitely one of FLW's more liveable houses. We've visited there twice, and would love to go again sometime.
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Here is a link to the house showing photos.I did not upload mine after I found these.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenbaum_House
Mary the Rosembam house is the one I was talking about but it is in Florence, AL not Decatur, AL.
I really enjoyed my visit to that house.
Joan Grimes
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Thanks for the correction, Joan - I knew it was one of those two towns. ::)
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Here is a link to the "Bootleg Houses" that Wright designed and built near his home in Oak Park. This is when he was taking on jobs behind Louis Sullivan's back. I am assuming that they still stand.
http://www.oprf.com/flw/Bootleg.html (http://www.oprf.com/flw/Bootleg.html)
Also, here is a link about a subdivision still intact that was inspired by Frank Lloyd Wright. This is in Worthington, OH, which is part of Columbus, OH, my hometown.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040829/news_mz1h29wright.html
The couple who wanted to build it went to Talisen West to talk to Wright about this project that was just in their creative minds. He encouraged them to return to Ohio, buy the land needed and to find a Wright inspired student to help in the design.
Rush Creek has become a place that folks would like to live. The houses are quite small but someone said to me that with open design of the inside plus the many windows which makes one feel that they are outside, she did not feel its smallness.
My husband and I have watched the movie about Rush Creek which is pretty good. Its available from our public library.
http://www.worthington.org/about/rushcreek.cfm
(http://www.worthington.org/about/rushcreek.cfm)
I am still trying to remember the name of the book that I brought home from the library. Back later!
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I hope you will look at Rush Creek as all of the homes were designed by a Wright influenced architect here in Columbus. He speaks of this in the movie we watched. There is a plethora of links on the Rush Creek Village site pertaining to questions asked about the community.
JoanP,
Once you asked me about Frank Lloyd Wright authoring books. This is what I found at our library under Frank Lloyd Wright-author
http://catalog.columbuslibrary.org/?
I am interested in this one, The Field Guide to 100 of his houses and have reserved it.
The library comments: "Admirers of the architect's designs can easily plan visits to various sites with the help of this guide to 100 of his greatest works. Includes information on the history and design of each building."
q=author:Frank%20Lloyd%20Wright (http://catalog.columbuslibrary.org/?q=author:Frank%20Lloyd%20Wright)
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The power, the sway he held over her is actually frightening.
You know, I'm beginning to change my mind about FLW's power over Mamah after reading Part Three, Traude. He made his own plans, did his own thing - and if she wanted to come along with him, fine. But I don't see him as a swengali anymore after reading Horan's book.
Aberlaine, Claire - I find that FLW's personal life and his skill as an architect were part and parcel of the whole man - impossible to separate the two. His focus was completely on his art - everything else, his loves, his finances, his family - everything, everyone else were expected to bow to his genius. That's just who he was. I think everyone around him accepted that.
I can't figure out why Mamah, an ardent feminist, put up with him - Because she loved him? Understood him? Was she like him? Maybe because he respected her - maybe because he understood her need to be her own person - and let her be.
He didn't force her to stay with him. But imagine returning to the States and moving to Taliesin, still a work in progress - and serving as the cook for the work crew in her heavy work boots - shunned by everyone - especially Madame Wright, who refused to enter the same house with her.
Jackie, Bruce ordered the same Ken Burns' film from Netflix - we watched it two nights ago. May-muh was certainly more than "a footnote" to Wright's life. All of the scholars commented that she was the love of his life - that he never got over her - even though he married two more times after her death. What I found moving - he had requested that he be buried in his family plot right next to Mamah - matching pine box, flowers from her garden. I'm not sure where his other wives were buried.
I had no idea that her death, and the death of Martha and John - were so gruesome. I was expecting the fire, but certainly not the ax murder! It's a wonder Wright rebuilt Taliesin - and continued to live there after that!
I'm eager to look at some of these links, Annie. The Ken Burns' show spent much time on Falling Water - and - oh, the magnificent Guggenheim in NYC! But there was quite a long period before interest in his Prairie style houses was rekindled. I think you'd enjoy the film - his life after Mamah.
I would like to know if the Midway Gardens still exists in Chicago. FLW was working on that when Mamah was so brutally murdered.
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Joan: I agree with you that there is no separation between the elements of FLW's personna. The artist is the the man T C Boyle's The Women is intorduced by FLW's words: Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility; I chose arrogance. With the mothering he must have had how could he not have been arrogant given his obvious and facile genius? The return to Lloyd-Jones valley where he could be surrounded by family and sycophants , where the h oi polloi had no power to do more than sneer, how his spirit must have trembled in rightous joy. Honest arrogance indeed.
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Honest arrogance, that's my cup of tea! Hahahaha! I love it!
In "The Women", T C Boyle tells a story about the second fire which is claimed to have been set up and started by FLW. This story is in the beginning of the book section about Mamah. (May Maw??? or May Ma or Mama or Ma Maw??? ) How would one find out the truth about that second fire???
JoanP,
I saw the Ken Burns movie on PBS a few years ago and that's where I heard about the fire and deaths of the 7 people.
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This is my first time to post something on the site. Our book club read this book, LOVING FRANK, last year and enjoyed it immensely. I personally connected them to my great gradmother, who left her husband about 1912 to run off with another man. She left three children and a doting husband. After we read the book, many of us watched the Ken Burns piece on Frank Lloyd Wright. He was a genius, but not someone any of us wished to be involved with. We were fascinated to learn in the film how his children went into his business.
judyg
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Judyg,
Its nice to hear from someone whose F2F group really enjoyed the book.
I noticed that the books that have been published about FLW were partially written by his two sons. Did I read that one of them invented--designed?? Lincoln Logs? Interesting side note.
Was your great-grandmother involved with another man who had charmed her the way FLW charmed Mamah?? Why are we so surprised that things like this happened back in Victorian times???
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Judyg, welcome!!! Without prying, may I ask how your grandmother's children (your parent) coped with their mother's abandonment? Oh, of course that's prying, isn't it? We were all aghast that Mamah (May-mah, the book repeatedly reminds us, is the pronunciation) left those adoring children behind. I wonder what their relationship would have been had they grown to adulthood.
Traudee, I can't get over how fair Edwin was with the visitation rights. He seems to have had the children's welfare in mind. I felt sorry for Lizzie - Lizzie and Louise. This really must have been a loss for the children - when the new Mrs. Cheney let them go.
That was quite a scene - Edwin travelling to Taliesin with FLW to face the gruesome scene. The children weren't buried with their mother, were they?
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Thank you for your post, Judy. It is wonderful to have the time for an in-depth discussion and get all the input.
JoanP, I agree. What happened between Mamah and Frank was elemental, unforced : a mutual, magnetic attraction, and irresistible, at least for her. She preferred Frank's volcanic temperament to the ordinariness of her husband who - heaven help the poor man - was bald! A personal flaw! How superficial !!!
FLW had a leonine head but was not a tall man. It's hard to imagine that the capes he favored enhanced his appearance as much as they would a tall man, like the actor Vincent Price, for example. Never mind. She thought Frank was dashing. (Beauty in the eye of the beholder...)
Mrs. Sherlock, I don't recall the title of the hefty volume containing FLW's creations (among them the furniture). But there is plenty of similar material available in libraries, and also on line where color photographs have been uploaded by visitors of his famous sites, and some added commentaries.
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3. How could Mamah not have been embarrassed by the crude words of the workers outside the house the morning after her arrival (even though they didn't know she was there with Frank)?
What did it cost her emotionally to realize that the people in Spring Green rejected their lifestyle and despised her?
Nancy Horan had not much more than her imagination in her portrayal of Mamah Cheney's emotional state. I don't remember much of a reaction from Mamah at these narrow-minded insutls from the unenlightened, as she would have categoriized them. What did get to her - her children's strangeness around her as she realized how much of their growing up she had missed, and would continue to miss. We are told that she felt "replaced" by the new Mrs. Edwin Cheney. That must have hurt the most.
The other thing that must have thrown her was Ellen Key's reversal -I take it the letter that N. Horan referred to was "real" - - written by Ellen Key's herself - telling Mamah to "return to her children, that the legitimate right of a free love can never be acceptable if enjoyed at the expense of maternal love."
It was Ellen Key's who had initially validated Mamah's decision to be true to her self.
Isn't it a little late for such advice? Where does this leave Mamah? Wasn't this contradictory to Ellen's philosophy? Don't you wonder what is motivating Ellen? Surely Mamah had told her all about her marriage and children when she met with Ellen in Europe? What a mess!
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Quote from JoanP: The other thing that must have thrown her was Ellen Key's reversal -I take it the letter that N. Horan referred to was "real" - - written by Ellen Key's herself - telling Mamah to "return to her children, that the legitimate right of a free love can never be acceptable if enjoyed at the expense of maternal love."
It was Ellen Key's who had initially validated Mamah's decision to be true to her self.
I think that Mamah really didn't know who she was until she became besotted with FLW. Then we have her liking Ellen Key's philosophy and doing translations of her works.
I think I said earlier that sometimes we have to remember that there are many kinds of love that we can benefit from in life and one of them is a child's love for his/her mother. What a full basket one has when loved by one's family. And to be able to love back! What more could you ask for?
I like what Ellen Key wrote to Mamah. In other words, lady, grow up!
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We read the book last year and most of us were fed up with him and felt she should have never joined him, especially when her husband gave her the divorce and continued to let her see her children. The murder/fire was just a horrible, out of the blue shock to us all.
My great grandmother was granted a divorce from her first husband because she was pregnant and he didn't want the child to bear the stigma of being what in those days was a 'bastard'. He kept my grandmother, and two sisters. He was significantly older than my great-grandmother and died in a house fire when my grandmother was 9 or 10. They lived with their maternal grandmother for a bit and then my great-grandmother came and got the three girls and took them to live with her. I knew none of this until I was well into adulthood. I knew my great-grandmother and the 'half-aunt'. That aunt and my grandmother were lots of fun. I always wondered why my great-grandmother lived with her and not in New Orleans with the two remaining daughters who were much better off financially than their sister in Toledo. The effects of such a sad situation; my grandmother had little patience for men who were flowery talkers; gamlbers, and ladies who sat and read while they had house work to do. The first husband, my great grandfather was very wealthy and the second man was a gambler and the family lawyer made off with the money and my grandmother went to work for the telephone company after 8th grade.
judyg
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JoanP, Mamah lived only for Frank. She could not have lived without him. In 1913 Frank took her to Japan for six months and promptly left her alone there a lot (just as he had done with Catherine years earlier) to obsessively search for prints and other art objects , many of which he bought at a fraction of what they were worth. Then he short-changed and dragged out compensation for his Japanese connection who was his interpreter there.
In LF we are told that Mamah discovered Fran k's mountainous debt by accident. She confronted Frank when he returned from Chicago. She sat him down. He hung is head and promised to change. She asked him to drive her to the station, and he did. She went to Chicago and stayed in Oak Park for a few days, went to the house, met Edwin's new wife - who was friendly enough - saw John long enough to take him to an ice cream parlor, and had an awkward conversation with Lizzie. But when Frank appeared on the doorstep she went back, to Taliesin with him. It is impossible to know whether this episode actually happened, but it is quite plausible. But was Mamah's head totally in the clouds? Any woman who runs a home would have some idea of household expenses!
Mamah was not the first client's wife whom flirtatious Frank chauffeured through the streets of Oak Park in his yellow sports car, and she knew it. They carried on the affair for five years while both stayed with their married partners. From the very beginning there was only one questioin: whom did she love more? The children or Frank?
Not to be closer to the children must have been a constant dull ache for her. But to feel jealous of Edwn's new wife was absurd. She had made her choice. Frank was first, the children a distant second.
Imagine that August da of the fire, the ride on the local train from Chicago up to Spring Green, FLW and his son John sharing the same compartment with Edwin, who also had a been alerted by phone, and a member of the hated press on board! Finding Taliesin still smoldering and the gruesome sight of the murdered needing burial.
Edwin took the remains of his children with him back to Chicago. He and his second wife, a teacher, had three children and led a happy life, according to the record.
Taliesin was rebuilt from the foundation but burned again. Frank started over but that house too burned because of faulty wiring. Frank began anew; the result wasTaliesin III, which is now a crumbling but still remarkable avatar for tourists from all over the world. Irretrievably lost in the fire in August 1914 were also the priceless five hundred copies of the Wasmuth monograph, the record of FLW's entire work up to that time.
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Annie, don't you wonder why Ellen K didn't counsel Mamah in Europe - before she took the translating job - and before she went ahead with the divorce from Edwin? Why wait as she did. Do you suppose that there is more to EllenK's personal life - involving children, that we don't know about? Or perhaps her own mother abandonned her. There seem to be missing pieces to her puzzling behavior.
I'm thinking that Mamah just didn't want to go back to Edwin. And I agree with others who say that she probably would have left Edwin even if there had been no FLW offering her an out.
Judyg - did your group feel Mamah should have gone back to Edwin? I felt that she had decided firmly that she did not want to go back - preferred FLW, who let her have more freedom than Edwin ever could.
We're back to that same question - should a woman stay in a loveless marriage - for the sake of the children? What do you think?
Whew, Judy, that is a colorful family background - a lot of adaptation went on. How old were you when began to learn of the strong women in your family and what they had gone through? No wonder you had no patience for the likes of Mamah Borthwick Cheney!
Traudee - my heart went out to Lizzie Borthwick. Not only did she lose those children she loved cared for from birth, she also lost her niece Jessie - and then her sister, Mamah. I wish we could learn more of her life after all her family was gone. Once her niece Jessie's last name was mentioned - her father's family were the Pritkens. Hopefully she got to see her Aunt Lizzing now and then.
I've lost all patience with Mamah - no admiration for her as a suffragette, a strong woman, a feminist...nothing.
But I'm willing to accept FLW - He was what he was - allowed his mother, his sisters, and all women to fawn over him as he pursued his art. Not saying he was right - just saying that I understood him better..
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JoanP,
"lost all patience with Mamah" you said. My sentiments exactly.
As for Ellen Key, there isn't much information on her personal life. She came from a wealthy family. Rigid Christian education. Liberl-minded. Very. She was not married, never had children. When Mamah went to see her in Sweden - and that visit did take place - she was alone and apparently lonely, too.
Perhaps Mamah gave greater weight to Ellen's theories referring to "free love" etc. as a justification for her and Frank's actions than to the well-being of the children of such couples, specifically Mamah's own. She loved them but, alas, not enough, not enough.
There's more to say about Frank who had his best work ahead of him at the time, and also about the end of the architectural era of the prairie houses.
Judyg, what an intriguing story. I believe one's family history is worth knowing about, possibly as a cautionary factor, perhaps for something to admire (or abhor), even for amusement - if for nothing else.
Tomorrow I have a session with the ophthalmologist grrrrrrrrr but will check in here as soon as the effect of those miserable drops allows is gone.
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Here are some quotes from FLW concerning Mamah:
Quotes:
Frank, while in Europe with Mamah: "I have never loved Catherine -- my wife -- as she deserved. I have for some years past loved another."
Source: Many Masks: A Life of Frank Lloyd Wright, page 210.
Frank, about Mamah, January, 1912: "... I love the woman who has cast in her lot with me here not wisely but too well. She too has her remunerative work -- as I have. She is quite able to supply her own needs -- and we work together ..."
Source: About Wright: An Album of Recollections by Those Who Knew Frank Lloyd Wright, page 73.
Frank, about not having a monument on Mamah's grave: "All I had left to show for the struggle for freedom of the five years past that had swept most of my former life away had now been swept away. Why mark the spot where desolation ended and began?"
Source: Many Masks, page 233.
Frank, after Mamah's death: "Something strange had happened to me. Instead of feeling that she, whose life had joined mine there at Taliesin, was a spirt near, she was utterly gone!"
Source:An Autobiography, page 211.
Frank's eulogy to Mamah: "To you who have been so invariably kind to us all, I would say something to defend a brave and lovely woman from those who attack her in death as viciously as they did in life. ... We lived frankly and sincerely and we have tried to help others live ... according to their ideals." Frank Lloyd Wright: An Interpretive Biography, page 136-137.
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Thank you, Ann, for posting FLW's quotes.
There are a great many sources to explore: his own essays on architecture, his autobiography, the writings of biographers and historians, like Meryle Secrest.
Most helpful to me was a slim volume with the title Death in a Prairie House: Frank Lloyd Wright and the Taliesin Murders by William R. Drennan, professor emeritus of English at the University of Wisconsin.
FLW had a host of competitors, "parasitic hacks" he called them, who had stolen his ideas. According to author Robert C. Twombly, the prairie house design had become "a bandwagon", "everyone was climbing on board, but few recognized FLW as the driver." Wright was furious. He claimed it was a conspiracy intended to exploit and discredit him. For him it was the end of the prairie style and the "organic house". More than forty-five intense, productive years, praise and fame lay ahead. So were tumultuous entanglements and more scandals, explored in detail in T.V. Boyle's The Women.
Mamah's life was cut short. FLW endured.
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I haven't read the article yet, but there's a piece on FLW in the June 2009 issue of Smithsonian Magazine.
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My copy of "A Field Guide to 100 of FLW's designs" is being held at the library. I will let you know what I think about it.
Did anyone look into the Rush Creek Village site?? Very interesting place to peruse.
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I haven't had a chance to go through the links to other Wright houses yet, Annie. I got as far as checking to see what had become of the Edwin Cheney house - excited to hear that it had become a bed & breakfast - wouldn't it be fun to experience a Wright house?
Here's an account from someone who stayed at the B&B -
The Cheney house is a superb brick house with an intimate quality. This is partly because the main living area is elevated and obscured behind a walled terrace on the street side. The partially sunken lower level was originally designed as a garage, but the city council vetoed it over concerns of gasoline fumes catching the house on fire. The lower level was re-designed as a separate apartment for Mrs. Cheney's sister. Most recently the lower level was divided into two B&B suites. Special features include art glass window and lamps. In addition to a few original pieces, the current owner has turned the house into a personal FLW museum with a broad array of FLW-designs such as a Midway Gardens table and chairs on the terrace, FLW books and FLW videos galore.
Everyone should have the opportunity for an authentic Frank Lloyd Wright experience and ours was here in July 2001. I have heard many stories of how many Frank Lloyd Wright buildings have leaky roofs and just as many cavalier quotes from the master himself on why that is so. But it wasn't until our stay at the Cheney house B&B that we had experienced it first hand.
We were awakened by an early morning thunderstorm and the sound of running water. I ran out of the bedroom to find water streaming across the rafters and cascading onto the Wright-designed dining room table. We used all of the towels in the house to mop up the water and threw them in the bathtub. Upon closer inspection it was clear from water damage to the ceiling that this was not the first time that this has happened. We also noticed that the gutters around the perimeter of the house were down. In discussing the situation with the current owner he described that he wanted heavy duty bracing installed on the gutters when he was having them repaired but was overruled because that wasn't how Mr. Wright designed them.
The Cheney house is no longer operated as a B&B, apparently because the neighbors were not very happy about it. As Ernest Hemingway once characterized his hometown Oak Park, "Broad lawns and narrow minds."
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Don't you wonder where Mamah Cheney got the nerve to take off with Frank? This is before she met Ellen Keys. Someone must have inspired her. I remember reading in Loving Frank that people were gossiping about her - saying that she read Ibsen.
Apparently the Norwegian playright was quite controversial at the time - especially his most famous play, "A Doll's House." I've been reading about the play and concluded that he is describing "Mamah Cheney's House" - to a T.
I thought this was interesting -
A major German actress refused to play the final scene of the play, in which Nora leaves her husband and family to discover her own ideas. For the first production of the play in Germany, Ibsen was forced to write an alternative ending for it to be considered acceptable. In this ending, Nora is led to her children after having argued with Torvald. Seeing them, she collapses, and the curtain is brought down. Ibsen later called the ending a disgrace to the original play. Ibsen hated this changed ending, referring to it as a 'barbaric outrage'.
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maryz, thank you for mentioning the article "The Triumph of Frank Llod Wright" in the Smithsonian Magazine. I believe it is an excellent evaluation of his work. Inevitably, some of FLW's domestic woes are mentioned in it as well.
They began in 1914, not long after Mamah's death, with Miriam Noel, an artist with a dubious past, a morphine addict. Their relationship was turbulent and fraught with altercations and violence. Even so, once free at last from Catherine in 1922, FLW married Miriam in 1923. She left him a few months later but filed lawsuits against him and made his life (and Olgivanna's) miserable for a few more years before she gave him a divorce, whereupon he married Olgivanna. (She was thirty-some years his junior.)
Ann, I like the pictures of the Rush Creek Village but couldn't find when it was built. It must be from Frank's early prairie house period, I imagine.
JoanP, Ibsen (*1828) was not understood nor appreciated in his native Norway. He went to Italy for some years, then went to Germany where he wrote "A Doll's House" in 1879. At that time a wife's traditional role was at home as mother, home maker, hostess, an adornment for her husband. Nora's husband treated her like a child, chided her for pending too much money on Christmas presents, and belittled her.
Surely Mamah's and Edwin's life before the elopement was nothing like that.
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Traude,
Rush Creek was built in the 1950's after the couple who started it went to FLW's Talisen West to get his advice and to take classes from him. They told them about their dream and he advised them to return to home to Columbus, OH and buy the land on which to start their own home and to build others. The architect was a FLW student or was inspired by FLW's architecture and he designed all the homes in that small subdivision. Each family has around an acre of land.
I must now go to the Smithsonian mag's article. Thanks Mary Z!
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Ann, thanks so much. The pictures are beautiful, stunning, really. :)
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6. After the break with Ellen Key, who had reprimanded her for leaving the children, without even a moderate income of her own, what or whom could Mamah count on?
Did she have reason to feel betrayed when Ellen Key preferred the translation by Mr. Heubsch (variously printed as Huebsch) ?
There are still so many unanswered questions about Mamah Cheney - I am finding it difficult to move on to admire FLW's architecture after her death. This will probably be the last time I will ever examine Mamah's life - in connection with Taliesin and Frank Lloyd Wright. Perhaps her sole importance in history will be the fact that she attempted to pursue her own happiness at all costs - including the abandonment of her children. There are still people who believe as Frank and Mamah did - that chidlren need happy parents around them. If Mamah believed that her marriage to Edwin "wasn't right"- then the children would be better off without her. Do you believe a mother is ever justified doing this for her own selfish reasons? I've concluded no, never. Once she becomes a mother, her number one priority is no longer herself, it is her children. IMO.
The next question - was Mamah really betrayed by Ellen Key? Ellen seems to have been both surprised and appalled to learn that Mamah had left the children to Edwin - for Frank. Perhaps this is why she changed her mind about translators. The fact that Mamah now has no income is really not Ellen's problem, is it? - It is Mamah's.
If Mamah was familiar with Ellen's work, how could she not have known Ellen's strong views about the mother's position in the family -
"In the future, she stated, women will enjoy the same rights as men in both the family and society. And, she argued, women must exercise these rights in order to turn society in a more nurturing direction, since women have a natural capacity for care and nurturing that men often lack. "
" According to Key, women lived in a period of transition, in the gap between what she called two "consciousnesses." If women chose to enter the labor market under the same conditions as men, there was a risk that the woman-type might change, become more "masculine," which would be devastating for future society. Key was very critical of the women's rights movement in Sweden. Ellen Key 1849-1926 (http://www.faqs.org/childhood/Ke-Me/Key-Ellen-1849-1926.html)
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JOANP, thank you for your post. I was working on one of my own but it went off accidentally and amending wasn't satisfactory. So I deleted the message in toto and am glad I did because in the meanwhile you posted yours.
I started my (unsent) message by saying that we have come to the end of our allotted time and
yet to put a CODA on the discussion - a conclusion of sorts. It's something necessary for me -- but not easy in this case. As JoanP indicated, many questions remain, questions that are not answerable.
In the course of the discussion we already brought to the fore the major stumbling block: Mamah's abandoning her children. One hundred years later, this gives women pause. And for good reason.
We'll never know whether this was the Great Passion for Mamah and Frank (it may have been for Mamah), or a mid-life crisis for either, or both. From all indications in this book, however, it was REAL and more serious for Mamah than it was for Frank. The relationship was real enough - to the detriment of especially Mamah's innocent children, who died with her.
In the blazing light of FLW's fame, Mamah's story needed to be told, and I applaud Nancy Horan for doing so, and for showing that Mamah was a person, not just a footnote.
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Traude,
I agree with you about Nancy Horan's attempt to show Mamah as certainly worth while as anyone and deserving of a book about her short time on earth. But I leave you with other reminders from the different books and links that we used here.
1. Ellen Key's change of mind and her telling Mamah to go home to her children as nothing could replace maternal love for those children but Mamah.
2. FLW's quotes after Mamah's death
a. Frank, after Mamah's death: "Something strange had happened to me. Instead of feeling that she, whose life had joined mine there at Taliesin, was a spirt near, she was utterly gone!"
Source:An Autobiography, page 211.
b. Frank, about not having a monument on Mamah's grave: "All I had left to show for the struggle for freedom of the five years past that had swept most of my former life away had now been swept away. Why mark the spot where desolation ended and began?"
Source: Many Masks, page 233.
c. And Frank's eulogy to Mamah: "To you who have been so invariably kind to us all, I would say something to defend a brave and lovely woman from those who attack her in death as viciously as they did in life. ... We lived frankly and sincerely and we have tried to help others live ... according to their ideals." Frank Lloyd Wright: An Interpretive Biography, page 136-137.
I feel after reading the two books, "Loving Frank" and "The Women" that maybe Frank really did love her in his own way as he exudes in these quotes. She certainly thought so.
Thanks JoanP, and Traude,
This has been a delightful discussion among friends and tomorrow it all ends. But, I know that I have enjoyed it.
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Many thanks, Annie, for the valuable quotes and for having taken us on a rewarding journey through Loving Frank.
Rewarding because it led us to realize that Mamah Cheney's agonizing quandary was by no means unique, but that untold women in the century since have had to make choices under similar circumstances, so that, indeed, the initial question of whether the issue is still relevant today can be answered in the affirmative.
Mamah was repudiated by a disapproving society. Today, a century later, her actions may not have caused societal outrage or repudiation. After all, we live in an era of global 'enlightenment' where 'anything goes', 'openness' is flaunted, prurience encouraged, sex advertized, and ethical values put to the test. But I submit that even now it isn't any easier for a woman to face the elemental, excruciating choice of going either with the lover or staying with the children. After all, nurturing is a woman's primal instinct.
FLW lived another fifty years or so after Mamah's death and reached the zenith in his profession. Let us hope that he did continue to cherish Mamah for what she had brought to his life.
My gratitude to all who read and posted in this discussion.
Traude