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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online: July 7-31
The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/palacethief/Palacethief2.jpg)
" I tell this story not for my own honor, for there is little of that here, and not as a warning, for a man of my calling learns quickly that all warnings are in vain..."
So begins the stunning novella of only 50 pages...the Palace Thief by Ethan Canin, M.D., which is the basis for the Kevin Kline movie shown above, The Emperor's Club. The book is a little different, however.
On July 7 we'll explore this novella first and see if we can answer some of the questions its quiet prose brings up, some of them quite profound. We may, if there is any interest, continue with a viewing the movie and seeing the differences in the way the two stories are expressed, and which one appeals to us more, and why.
"The worth of a life is not determined by a single failure or a solitary success."---William Hundert
Do you agree or disagree? Why would he say this? Let's talk! Do join us and share your thoughts starting July 7th. Just to be clear: we are only going to talk about the 50 page novella in the book called The Palace Thief, even tho the book itself is called the same thing.
---"There is a great deal to examine, exchange views on and bounce off one another in this Novella.
It will present noble, righteous and moral behavior as opposed to conniving machination and politics, much like we are all faced with in 2015."---Andrea
Interesting Links:
Annotations for The Palace Thief from Chulalongkorn University (http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~tpuckpan/Canin,%20Ethan-thepalacethief.html) *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.
Discussion Leader: Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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A warm welcome in this hot summer to what I hope will be a cool exciting adventure discussing The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin, a book which proves that you don't have to have to write 8,000 pages to say something profound.
We can read the title story (The Palace Thief) in all of its 50 pages at one sitting, and let's do, before July 7, so we'll all be ready to discuss what it means.
I am so glad we are going to get to discuss this because I have had no end of questions about it, just the opening lines raise questions: " I tell this story not for my own honor, for there is little of that here, and not as a warning, for a man of my calling learns quickly that all warnings are in vain..."
Now there's an opening to pull you in! What calling, what honor? Where is "here?" I can't understand why we've never discussed it before! And it's chock full of quotations that deserve a second look, like this one: "The worth of a life is not determined by a single failure or a solitary success."---William Hunderdt
Do you agree with that? Why would anybody say that?
Then there's the movie The Emperor's Club with Kevin Kline which was based on this novella, also wonderful, but different. Subtly different. I'm just noticing how different. But what will YOU notice?
I'm really looking forward to this, as I have wanted to talk about this book for a long time, and I don't get to do many book discussions, which I have missed.
We need a quorum to offer it, so if you're interested, please sign in.
Everyone is welcome!
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I'm in.
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Oh, Pat!! Wonderful!!!
I had been out grocery shopping in this 97 degree heat which I have not been used to for these last few weeks, and staggered in with the bundles wheezing like an old horse to see your name, whoopeee!!
Now that just makes my day!!! Let me see, which would I rather do, haul heavy groceries in boiling heat or talk books...Gee that's a hard one. hahahaa
Welcome!
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Okay, count me in. The library has only one book, so I hope it isn't out when I want it.
Nice to have you back, Ginny.
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Oh Frybabe, wonderful! So glad to have you!
Thank you, I am glad to be back, except for the heat.
Well, now, this is exciting!
Welcome, All!
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I'm in too. I watched The Emperor's Club last week -- glad my library had a copy, as Amazon is our of them right now. Ginny mentions subtle differences between it and the story, so I'm sure I'l be watching it again after reading. It was interesting to see a younger Jesse Eisenberg playing the part of one of the boys.
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Oh Pedln, super!! I like looking in here it's like Christmas morning! hahaha
I missed Jesse Eisenberg in that, I will have to go back and watch that again, and there's another one, too, a young Emile Hirsch. I will want to re-watch it once we get through discussing it, because I am interested to see if the clever minds here see what I did this time or if, perhaps, I am off the wall and totally wrong. I also have a DVD copy here I can lend which I was sent earlier this year, it's a good movie, I think, but it's different.
SO glad to see you! Welcome!
I tried to find a copy of the novella online but so far I haven't been able to do that. What I DID find, however, was a sort of annotated page explaining some of the references which I think I'll put up in the heading so anybody scratching their heads over Shutruk-Nahhunte can find a quick reference. (Be honest, when you first saw that you thought it was made up, right? I certainly never studied HIM in school, I know that.)
That page is from somebody at the Chulalongkorn University. Boy does that ring bells with me, do any of you remember where we've seen that name before?
Anyway, here's the link and I'll also put it in the heading: *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far).
http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~tpuckpan/Canin,%20Ethan-thepalacethief.html
Unfortunately they don't ask the one overriding question I have. Or answer it. :) I had no idea this thing was required reading in so many institutions!!! Unfortunately for them they don't have our readership and this is a novel which depends on age, I think, for perspective. Or so I think.
Just in reading it over for this post I was thinking Ozymandias and behold, that's in the next line of the book! This is very subtly written, very carefully done. I think that I have written more here than he did in the first chapter. hahahaa
I am SO glad to have this chance to talk about this book with you all, because with the wealth of accumulated knowledge and life experiences here we will all probably have different takes on it: we'll each see something different and we can't help but emerge enlightened, whether or not we agree with each other.
Deems (the late Mary Howland who taught English at the Naval Academy and one of our former members) and I used to argue over themes. Not yet, ginny, she'd say, not yet...hahahaha Boy I wish she were here, because the themes are battling with me as I write this. All I see are themes at this point.
What fun!
Welcome, All!
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OZYMANDIAS ? Good grief, Ginny, what have you done? Am I the only one who has never heard or seen that word before? But parts of it have appeared throughout the ages in bits and pieces of pop culture. Breaking Bad !! Mad Men !!
As for Chulalongkorn University - founded by a prince who became king and wished to turn his country into a modern state. I look forward to exploring that page after my Internet gets upgraded from 2 mbps to 60 mbps, hopefully by the end of the week.
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:)
This little quiet looking book is full of literary references, this should be a blast. We will really enjoy this. For my part I did NOT know that Ozymandias was mentioned on Mad Men, etc.
I may be wrong (and I usually am), but that Chulalongkorn, isn't that the same one mentioned in The King and I?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3dpghfRBHE
Now you mentioned it, I couldn't resist, Pedlin.
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Okay Ginny, you peaked my curiosity with "Ozymandias" I have never heard of this, so of course I had to google it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias
Smith's poem[edit]
Shelley wrote the poem in competition with his friend Horace Smith, who published his sonnet a month after Shelley's in the same magazine.[7] It takes the same subject, tells the same story, and makes a similar moral point, but one related more directly to modernity, ending by imagining a hunter of the future looking in wonder on the ruins of an annihilated London. It was originally published under the same title as Shelley's verse; but in later collections Smith retitled it "On A Stupendous Leg of Granite, Discovered Standing by Itself in the Deserts of Egypt, with the Inscription Inserted Below".[8]
Comparison of the two poems[edit]
Shelley's "Ozymandias"
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."[4]
Smith's "Ozymandias"
In Egypt's sandy silence, all alone,
Stands a gigantic Leg, which far off throws
The only shadow that the Desert knows:—
"I am great OZYMANDIAS," saith the stone,
"The King of Kings; this mighty City shows
"The wonders of my hand."— The City's gone,—
Nought but the Leg remaining to disclose
The site of this forgotten Babylon.
We wonder,—and some Hunter may express
Wonder like ours, when thro' the wilderness
Where London stood, holding the Wolf in chace,
He meets some fragment huge, and stops to guess
What powerful but unrecorded race
Once dwelt in that annihilated place
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My copy from Amazon arrived yesterday. I plan on being there for the discussion.
Sally
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Oh, how delightful to look in this morning and see two new members joining us! Welcome, welcome, Sally!
I am looking forward to your thoughts on this one!
Just to be clear for everyone, we are not discussing the entire book of the same name, but only the 50 page novella called The Palace Thief.
Welcome, welcome also Bellamarie, and ditto on the thoughts. And thank you for putting in two copies of the Ozymandias. I had never heard of the Smith version and I can see why, but the Shelley is splendid, isn't it? Thank you for putting it here. Already we've had two people who had never seen it, that alone is worth the price of the book, it really is.
Frybabe, what an interesting take on the poem. At first I really did not like it, the over stagey narration and the sweep of...the buttes and the west, (where are the legs standing in the desert? The ancient ruins that time has erased? ) But then I began to see what they were doing with it, the symbolism, and I bet that's how it's used in all the modern mentions Pedln talked about. Thank you for that!
I love the images the poem evokes and what it means, or at least means to me. We might like to talk about it in the context of this story (why, for instance, is it mentioned so early in the book? Was that overkill with the Nahhunte?)... Since you've put it here, I probably want to put it in the heading later on, too.
I think we are really going to enjoy this one, and the very careful writing the author has done..... and to me, and perhaps me only, it has repercussions in every life, especially as we age, not just the teaching profession although that, too, is what's talked about. There is a LOT being said here. And you all will probably see even more than I do.
But anyway, it's hard to wait for the 7th but that's what we need to do, so welcome, welcome, ALL!!
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Well now- my interest is piqued. I have never heard of this book, have never seen the Emperor's Club, nor, like PEDLN, have I a clue what Ozymandis means.
So, with an open mind and open eyes, I will join you ladies for the discussion of the Palace Thief.
I love literary references and when Ginny mentioned Deems, well now---
that was the icing on the cake.
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And now we are three to whom Ozymandias is new!
That's so tremendously exciting to me. Welcome, welcome, Andrea ( ALF) !!!
I'm so glad to see you here.
Yes, I actually think about Deems quite a lot. We had some great discussions and fun arguments here.
I can't wait for the discussion to start to hear what you have to say. I have wanted to discuss this one for a long long time.
I can't think of a better group to do it with.
And we can use more. The more the merrier!
Welcome, All!
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I'll be in. Just got the book from the library and have started to read it. I'll do my best to finish it and join the discussion. (Not my usual type of book.)
Marj
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Marj!! How wonderful to see you here! I look forward to your opinions!!
Remember, it's not the entire book we're doing it's just the last story also called The Palace Thief. Only about 50 pages.
Well this is wonderful! Welcome!!
Welcome, All!
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May I be ever so bold as to question WHY this book that has 4 short stories is called The Palace Thief and the last 50 pages of this book is the Palace Thief story?
I AM Confused to begin with when I picked up my copy this AM.
Welcome Marj. I'm so happy to see u are here with this one. I remember you always added so much to our discussions.
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Alas still waiting on my book - with all our 'wet' the deliveries have been slowed - I know rain or sleet etc. but the streets have been raging rivers and nothing in that commitment to service talks about fording roaring waters.
Just noticed Ethan Canin wrote two books with rivers in mind - Carry Me Across the Water and Blue River - :D is our swollen landscape forshadowing reading this author ;)
This is such a great group I cannot wait Alf and Marj - Sally and Pedln - Frybabe and bellamarie - PatH and of course our fearless leader Ginny - this will be wonderful...
Do not have Netflex and Amazon is not offering this Kevin Kline movie on instant video - just as well I can create my own mind-pictures of the characters.
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Oh wonderful, welcome, Barbara! ISN'T this a great group! So glad to see you here!
I'm sorry you are having so much flooding and problems there, I just saw it on the news again.
The movie is different from the book, and I think it gives a different feeling about the characters. I originally saw the movie first and then read the book and to be honest, missed, I think, what the author was saying in the book. I had Kevin Kline in my head and the movie treatment.
Then when I just read the book again recently I was surprised. Either I did not understand the movie or I did not pay attention to what the book was saying. At any rate to me the book said something else tho the plot is almost the same...almost.
I can, if I can find my copy, mail the movie out to anybody who would like to see it.
Andrea, May I be ever so bold as to question WHY this book that has 4 short stories is called The Palace Thief and the last 50 pages of this book is the Palace Thief story?
That's a good question. I don't know. :) Maybe we can find out in the course of the discussion. Now that you ask, I am trying to remember if I have ever seen this happen before, and I'm thinking I have, but I can't think of a title offhand. Surely with so many intrepid researchers among us somebody will find the reason, but what a good question! Perhaps it's common when one story seems to be more famous? Or takes precedent for some reason over the others. I have no idea! And I'm excited to learn something I did not know coming in, thanks to you!
This is going to be a good one! There's still plenty of time to join us.
Everyone is welcome!
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I don't think it is uncommon to title a book of short stories or novellas after one of the stories of the same name. Some of the add "and other stories" in their title, but not all of them. Ray Bradbury has several including The Martian Chronicles. Other authors that had done this include Isaac Asimov, Neil Gaiman, Alice Munro, Jhumpa Lahiri, and Stephen King. I publishers have a lot of influence and/or the final say on book titles. What the author initially uses and what is actually printed are often different, not to mention the titles of the same book or sometimes printed under different titles in other countries.
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I just talked with the main library, and they will be sending the book to my library, so I will have it by Monday. Looking forward to the discussion.
Barb, I really feel bad for the flooding in Texas, and the other states experiencing this overly wet weather. We in Ohio have been getting some of your weather, and I for one and tired of it. We are close to the end of June, and have had only one swim day with the grandkids in our pool. The summer will be over before we know it.
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Oh my, this discussion is going to be a HOT AND HEAVY one, I am so excited for it to begin as I just read the first 20 pages and am chomping at the bit to get into a discussion.
I love this site because our participants are never "right nor wrong" just true to themselves. There is a great deal to examine, exchange views on and bounce off one another in this Novella.
It will present noble, righteous and moral behavior as opposed to conniving machination and politics, much like we are all faced with in 2015.
I've been reading and studying Ozymandias for over an hour and would love to discuss this sonnet itself.
I am excited to renew some Roman history and get started. We have a great group assembling and perhaps we will have more before we begin.
I will be off line for a couple of days as we are heading up to NY for a grand daughter's high school graduation. We just returned from New Mexico for a grand son's graduation and at this rate I should get a pilot's license soon. ;D
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My book came.
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Great, Pat! And remember, Everybody, we want to be sure only to read the last story in the book, The Palace Thief.
Andrea, loved that post, just like the old days. Safe trip to see another grandchild graduate!! I hope you are racking up millions of frequent flyer miles. :)
What a good suggestion! I would very much like talk about Ozmandias at length, maybe as an addenda to this discussion, August seems to be free for a new book discussion. I was leaning towards Prufrock, (The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock), which I seem to be quoting to myself these days...("do I dare to eat a peach?" ) Boy that one really resonates now like it didn't when I was 18. hahaaha It's summertime, we can just talk on if we'd like, I'm open to it. There are a lot of references in this thing.
I have always loved Ozymandias. Inquiring minds want to know why he didn't choose IT for his classes instead of Shutruk- Nahhunte. I am beginning to have my own suspicions.
Thank you for that background on the titling of volumes of short stories, Frybabe, I had forgotten the Asimov which whose I Robot I JUST reread and should have remembered.
Bellamarie, I am glad your book is also going to be here.
I'll just quote Andrea again here: There is a great deal to examine, exchange views on and bounce off one another in this Novella.
It will present noble, righteous and moral behavior as opposed to conniving machination and politics, much like we are all faced with in 2015.
My goodness what an interesting thing to say. I think I'll put that in the heading. We're going to enjoy this one.
We have plenty of room at the table for more participants. In this book discussion there are no right or wrong opinions. We want to hear YOUR thoughts on the book. We're not seeking consensus nor some inside knowledge of what a critic thinks (tho those are always welcome as any other opinion) nor what the author himself intended. We're interested in what it says to you on a variety of topics the author himself has raised. And the way he has raised them.
Really looking forward to it: everyone is welcome!
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The Emperor's Club is available at Netflix. I just ordered it. I also ordered Shelley's Complete Poems to read Ozymandias of Egypt - had never heard if it. But, then, I don't care for much poetry.
Marj
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I'm in. I, too, had never heard of Ozymandias, Thank you Bellamarie for the link. This sounds intriguing and short! Perfect for summer. I ordered my book today and should have it by Tuesday.
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How much of London was left when you were there, Ginny? How sad to catch the poet's vision of 'the wilderness where London stood', with only howling wolves to be heard. How wonderful that London was there for Wordsworth when he wrote his sonnet on the view of beautiful London from the bridge...gosh, I've forgotten which bridge.
And don't you feel sorry for Ozymandias. He achieved so much and now...'nothing remains and level sands stretch far away.' It's not something one should teach at St. Benedict's, to the upcoming generation of movers and shakers, is it? It's better not to have heard of this guy's posthumous fate. Better to stick with the history of Roman emperors. Their memory is still fresh and alive.
Fantastic library service. I've read the story and watched the movie. Great choice for discussion, Ginny. I've just remembered. It was 'The view from Westminster Bridge'.
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I don't know Jonathan, about the teaching of Ozymandias being proper in the curriculum.
I say "go for it" and teach the young that no man is an island. I say acquaint them with the sad truth that no matter how great or small, you will fade in time. I don't wish to belabor this point but-- time is the controlling factor of life. How I would have loved to ponder that as a young lass instead of a "seasoned beauty."
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OH WOW!! This just gets better and better every time I come in here!
Welcome, Everybody!
Welcome Halcyon, I had hoped you'd join us! And that's Four for Oxymandias being new, this is fabulous. Really, I mean if nobody gets anything out of the discussion but Ozymandias, it's worth it.
Welcome, Jonathan!! London was booming when I was there, absolutely loved it as always. Saw Jonathan Pryce at the Globe Theater in the Merchant of Venice and he was spectacular and now I have a new Jonathan Pryce anecdote to tell, as well. hahahaa
I really liked your statement after having read the book AND watched the movie that it's a "Great choice for discussion."
I had hoped so and am very pleased to see you agree. I hope you are joining us!! What a group! My goodness!
Marj, you're really getting IN it! Love it! Actually the entire poem of Ozymandias was put here earlier by bellamarie. That's it. But there's a lot of background to it, too.
That's an interesting statement, Andrea, and it suddenly made me realize something about the book itself I had never seen until this moment. THAT is one of the many reasons I so enjoy our book discussions here, sometimes we (I) see things as a result of our discussions that possibly we (I) would not have seen alone. I missed it completely and it's one of the most obvious things in the book. What else is in store, I wonder!! :)
Lots of room for more to join! Everyone is welcome!
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Tra La - book arrived - Would you believe more rain again today -
"The" poem - someone said they ordered or downloaded on their kindle the complete works of Shelley - I wonder if it was the Cambridge edition, edited by George Edward Woodberry... That is the edition I have and what I love about this copy is within the pages of poetry are excerpt about his life at the time the poems were written.
On page 356 is the Sonnet Ozymandias along with another sonnet from 1818 To The Nile that contains a similar message ( ;) starts off as if he were writing from Austin today)
Month after month the gathered rains descend
Drenching you secret Æthiopian dells;
And from the desert's ice-girt pinnacles,
Where Frost and Heat in strange embraces blend
On Atlas, fields of moist snow half depend;
Girt there with blasts and meteors, Tempest dwells
By Nile's aërial urn, with rapid spells
Urging those waters to their mighty end.
O'er Egypt's land of Memory floods are level,
And they are thine, O Nile ! - and well thou knowest
that soul-sustaining airs and blasts of evil,
And fruits and poisons, spring where're though flowest.
Beware, O Man ! for knowledge must to thee
Like the great flood to Egypt ever be.
* Girt - to surround, hem in. -
Between these poems, both written in 1818 is a full page Bio of this time in Shelley's life
He was living his first year full time in Italy - I Capuccini, in Este, near Venice, named for the Capuchin monastery that no longer stands there. He had recently married, (after the suicide death of his first wife) Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley daughter of, philosopher and feminist Mary Wollstonecraft who died 11 days after the birth of this daughter, Mary.
A vine-trellised walk, a pergola led to a summer house at the end of the garden which was his study, where he was writing long poems Prometheus and where he had finished Julian and Maddalo Nearby is the ancient castle Este where owls and bats "flitted forth at night, as the crescent moon sunk behind the black and heavy battlements." During the day he looked over the wide plain of Lombardy with the Apennines to the West.
This idyllic setting is marked by misfortune and sadness bordering on depression for Shelly. Their infant daughter suffers, they thought from the heat. She was also teething - so sick they became alarmed and headed for Venice (this is before Italy is a nation as we know it today) He forgets his passport and only by cajoling the soldier at Fusina are they finally permitted to enter Laguna - by the time they reach the Doctor the child is dead. They "return to Este to weep" - After a few weeks they head south for Rome and spend the winter in Naples. Shelly's suffers from ill-health and the Doctors regimen is more painful than his illness - he suffers through recurring period with "bursts of discontent and sadness. One looks back with unspeakable regret and gnawing remorse to such periods;" - Mary is full of remorse that she was not as attentive to soothing his feelings. He was in constant pain.
They lived in "utter solitude - and such is often not the nurse of cheerfulness; for then, at least with those who have been exposed to adversity, the mind broods over its sorrow too intently; while the society of the enlightened, the witty, and the wise, enables us to forget ourselves by making us the sharers of the thoughts of others, which is a portion of the philosophy of happiness... He sheltered himself against memory and reflection, in a book. But with one or two whom he loved, he gave way to wild and joyous spirits, or in more serious conversation expounded his opinions with vivacity and eloquence."
In the early pages of this book, you learn that Shelley, upon the suicide death of Harriet was denied by the courts custody rights and access to his children, whom he loved dearly, by the Westbrook's, the family of Harriet. Until recently there was much slander against Shelly published by the Westbroooks that is only now being sorted out - Harriet and he were separated however, they continued to see each other - during this time he met Mary who is 15 and he is 20 - later when Mary is 17 and he is 22 - after the death of Harriet they elope and secretly leave for France, then on to Switzerland before retuning to England penniless where Mary, pregnant has a premature baby that dies. During Shelley's young years lots happen that includes Harriet, father's debts, spending his estate, that is not enough to pay his father's debts, separation from his children, death of children, Mary's father disowning her - lots and lots of memory that while in Italy seems to plague him and that is expressed in his work. Both these sonnets, from the crucial year 1818, are about loss.
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Thank you Barbara, that's quite an interesting background to Ozymandias and Shelley.
We can talk further about what the poem itself is about in the discussion when it starts, and what it's doing in the book. I appreciate your putting the background here. I don't have that book.
Lots of room here at the table for more participants! I think we're at a record for recent book discussions now, and I'm really looking forward to July 7th.
Everyone is welcome, pull up a chair and your opinions, too. :)
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Here is a smiley :) - my word for the day came in - I had not ever heard the word used however, the definition immediately reminded me of this book, a collection of artistic works by Ethan Canin.
florilegium
The Latin roots for this seldom-seen word mean "gathering of flowers." It refers to an anthology of songs, poems, or other short artistic works.
Not sure if the site will let you in but here it is and if you hit the word it should take you to where you can hit the megaphone and hear how to say the word. The gium is like jume as if June but with an m and the e preceding is like e in eagle.
http://www.visualthesaurus.com/
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What a lovely word! :)
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Reading it now, was lucky to find it at the library. It's large print, but that's ok. Actually my first large print book but enjoying it so far. Looking forward to sharing it with you all.
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Well, hello, Nancy, and welcome, welcome!
We are delighted to have you here, this is wonderful. What a wonderful surprise! I'm glad you could find it, and us, too.
And I'm really glad you persevered despite the large print so you could join us.I have read a couple of books also that I just could not get in any other format, and I kind of enjoyed it. I don't know why, it kind of took me back when print looked big to me as a child. It's really amazing, the connection people have to certain books or memories they invoke.
This is a wonderful group; it can't get better than this..... I can't wait for it to start.
As good as it is, we can always benefit from more opinions, so if anybody is reading this, and thinking well, I don't know.....get a copy of the book, pull up a chair, and join us....I don't think you'll regret it. I hope not anyway.
Everyone is welcome!
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Welcome aboard Nancy. Be very careful, I warn you; this group is addictive!
I just returned to the fold, myself.
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Wow - Nancy - welcome - looking forward to getting to know you - just wonderful that you found the discussion although it sounds like you and Ginny know each other - so glad to see you in this discussion.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online: July 7-31
The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/palacethief/Palacethief2.jpg)
" I tell this story not for my own honor, for there is little of that here, and not as a warning, for a man of my calling learns quickly that all warnings are in vain..."
"For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught"....("My Way" sung by Frank Sinatra)
"This is a story without surprises..." (Mr. Hundert).
| Topic #1: The Character of Mr. Hundert |
| "Character is fate."---Heraclitus |
To start out our discussion, let's focus first on Mr. Hundert and his character. Not "character" as in a book character, but "character" as personal attributes....Here are some possible places to start, choose one or all and let us know what you think:
-What is your opinion of Mr. Hundert?
-What are some ways that Mr. Hundert's character is revealed?
-Did your opinion change as the story went on? Why or why not?
-In the opening lines he says in several ways what the story is not about, so what IS it about?
-Why do you think he is telling this story, and what does that say about him personally?
-Do you think he is a reliable narrator?
-What seems to be the most important thing to him in his life now?
-What part, if any, do you think his age has in the telling of the story?
-Have you ever known a "Mr. Hunderdt?"
Let's discuss Mr. Hundert and his character first..
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Interesting Links:
Annotations for The Palace Thief from Chulalongkorn University (http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~tpuckpan/Canin,%20Ethan-thepalacethief.html) *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.
Discussion Leader: Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Pedln, what a charming story!! Isn't it the funniest thing that once you read about something you suddenly see it everywhere? Did you lose a post here? In answer to the post I saw at lunch but SIRI refused to answer, I'd tear it out and paste it back in. That way nobody can blame you for anything. :)
Safe trip!!
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Yes, I did lose a post, but figured I'd done something dumb, like not click on reply.
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No, you are fine, I saw it earlier. It may have been a glitch of some kind. But now we're back, and we are still tweaking the website, but it looks really good. It appears stable, it's much faster, and it was a pleasure to watch the upgrade process.
Until we get everything straightened out if you find that the size of the print here is too small and you're not on an iPad or something were you can immediately adjust it, the best thing to do if you're on the computer is to find the control button on your keyboard (Ctrl) and while holding it down with your left hand reach over with your right hand and hit the plus button. And you can adjust the size of the font on the entire website any size you like until we get it where we want it.
It's a good thing to get this done before 4 July holiday and before our discussion starts on July 7.
Everyone is welcome!
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The book is waiting for me at the library. Will pick it up tomorrow.
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Super. I'm going to read it again myself on the 5th.
I think it would be a good idea if I try to explain for those who are new the direction this discussion will take on the 7th?
In essence I like to think of us in somebody's living room with a roaring fire or this time of year out on a sun porch sitting around having a conversation together. We will have read the entire novella and nothing in it is off base.
Even tho we all have our own ideas, it's always good to remember that we're having a conversation here and talk to the others, too, or reference their ideas.
What I thought I'd do is try to have one topic or question for your consideration to start us off with. Hopefully it will be something that we all have thoughts on, in an ideal world... but sometimes that doesn't happen, and if it doesn't, feel free to bring up a new topic and we'll put it in the heading for the next day and so on.
But the idea is to have an enlightening thoughtful conversation with each other about some of the issues the book raises. We do NOT seek consensus, and there are no right or wrong answers. I already see by reading the link in the heading that what Dr. Canin feels the book was about is not what I got out of it, and that's OK. He's said what it's about, I only see a small part of that, I see something different, or perhaps I am off on the wrong track. Either way, I am hoping to emerge from an enjoyable book talk with more understanding than I brought in.
I'll post the first Topic for Your Consideration (if I can narrow them down to one) on July 6th so you can have some advance notice.
See you on the 7th, come on in any time and begin on the 7th.
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Just got my book! I read a couple of the other stories and enjoyed them as well. Very thought provoking....
Ya'll have a Happy 4th of July!!
(http://www.4th-of-july-images.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/happy-4th-of-july-images-2.gif)
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And the same to you! :)
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OH for heaven's sake my post is not here - I know I posted because I remarked to Bellamarie how cute was her card - no big anything lost - just did not think we lost anything during the change over and evidently we did but it must be minor.
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I'm sorry you lost a post. The upgrade was done June 30, so that shouldn't affect any posts made after the 3rd of July when her card was put in here.
Very frustrating to lose a post, I agree.
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hmm - it was not today - so maybe the card is in another discussion as well and I assumed it was here - regardless it was no big deal only that I had not noticed we lost any posts and so I was surprised but maybe now I am wrong and the card was as I say in another discussion and the post I assumed is lost is really simply in another discussion - ah so - as I say nothing to be concerned over. I think the change over went super well.
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Barbara...your post is in the Library...
http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=881.msg256795#msg256795
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;D :-*
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Uh, Oh! Ginny, the annotations links to some old PBS presentations of the Roman Empire I don't think I've seen, or don't remember seeing. Guess what I am going to do tonight.
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;) Let us know if any of them are any good, I noticed that, but am not familiar with them.
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I watched "Order from Chaos" last night, and yes, I had seen it before. It is narrated by Sigourney Weaver. It is about the rise of Octavian and interposes his rule with the life of Ovid. The overview of Augustus's life just that; it skimmed over or didn't address much. Barely a word about Livia or his progeny except for Julia. She was treated rather kindly for the most part. The more interesting, but just as bare-bones, is Ovid's life which I didn't know/forgotten about. His "poetry" lost something in translation, I think. The quotes sounded more like a love manual than poetry. It would have sounded better in Latin. Since these were the writings that got him in trouble with Augustus, there was not one word of Metamorphoses.
Episode 2 skips to Caligula, Episode 3 takes us to Claudius, and Episode 4 does Trajan.
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Interesting, Frybabe, thank you so much! I may have to look into the Ovid part, I have never heard of the series.
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And here we are, beginning our first book discussion on our brand new site, (hit Control and Plus on your keyboard to make the print larger) and it's a novella I have long wanted to discuss with our discerning readers: the 50 page The Palace Thief.
To start us off tomorrow, Tuesday, June 7th, as promised, here is the first focal point of the discussion. Sometimes when I would start a discussion with one topic or one focal point, the way I worded it left folks kind of at a loss, wondering how to approach it. Such as "what's this story about?"
So this time I thought if we were sitting face to face I would ask you what do you THINK about William Hundert? What is your opinion of him, his character? Since I can't see your reactions, I thought I'd try to help by listing a few approaches. If you don't like any of them, don't use them, it's just to spur conversation.
Here, I've repeated from the "heading," (the first post on top of every page with the photo in it) our focus first:
| Topic #1: The Character of Mr. Hundert |
| "Character is fate."---Heraclitus |
To start out our discussion, let's focus first on Mr. Hundert and his character. Not "character" as in a book character, but "character" as personal attributes....Here are some possible places to start, choose one or all and let us know what you think:
-What is your opinion of Mr. Hundert?
-What are some ways Mr. Hundert's character is revealed?
-Did your opinion change as the story went on? Why or why not?
-In the opening lines he says in several ways what the story is not about, so what IS it about?
-Why do you think he is telling this story, and what does that say about him personally?
-Do you think he is a reliable narrator?
-What seems to be the most important thing to him in his life now?
-What part, if any, do you think his age has in the telling of the story?
-Have you ever known a "Mr. Hunderdt?"
Let's discuss Mr. Hundert and his character first..
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The doors open tomorrow morning for your thoughts. Don't wait for me, jump right in!
Let's see if we can get to the bottom of this very carefully written piece.
Everyone is welcome!
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Good morning, good morning, good morning! The day has arrived at last. I actually couldn't sleep I was so excited. I read this again yesterday, for the ?? th time and saw something different. Why do I see something different every time? It's like a will o the whisp.
What does he want? I went to bed thinking. What IS it he wants? Why are there so many remarks about character? What does that mean? Does he then cause that last scene, the picture showed an old man "with a proud and foolish smile?"
Who IS this man, that's the question. It's hard to even pin down one aspect of his personality because in the next frame to me he seems to change it. What does he really want and why the coda here? The last scenes with Deepak?
How do YOU see him? How is his character being revealed? I don't want to spoil anybody's ideas, I like to wait and then see if mine are too far out to even mention. And they usually are. The caring teacher? A moral man? Proud at the last that he spoke up? What a story!
So who he? Everyman?
The floor is now open for your thoughts. Hopefully each of us will disagree. There are no right or wrong answers. Even if we disagree with the author, book discussions are about what it seems to you and why you think so. And how you can prove it with the test. Sometimes an author will intend one thing but end up showing another. We have seen that before in our discussions. This is going to be such FUN!
What do you make of Mr. Hundert?
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Always scary to be the first one in line. And I can see already that I'll definitely be doing some re-reading.
I'm not sure that I like Mr. Hundert as a teacher. Where is the joy in his teaching? Where is his compassion? He speaks of dullards and dull boys and do-nothings. No where do I hear him talking about the pleasure of teaching these boys.
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Is this what it means to be a teacher? Oh, the agony and the ecstasy. The teacher of history finds himself caught up in it. Compelled to add his chapter. To set the record straight? The teacher of character is left puzzled by his own. Ginny asks, in a very thought-provoking first post, was Mr Hundert a caring teacher, a moral man? No teacher could have been more caring. ('That school was my life.')
But after forty years he's left completely demoralized, seeking some honest company in Deepak Mehta. The story opens with an unusual paragraph of a conflicted soul trying to get at the truth. And right through the story we're treated to an unusual array of sentiment and thought and commentary on the times. This one really grabbed me:
'At the time, of course, the country was in the throes of a violent, peristaltic rejection of tradition, and I felt a particular urgency to my mission of staying a course that had led a century of boys through the rise and fall of ancient civilization.'
Peristaltic? Only a medical man (the author) could have come up with that!! On the other hand was he justified in including John Foster Dulles and Henry L. Stimson among the early students?
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Welcome, Pedln!! Welcome back home after your trip and Jonathan! I am so glad to see you both as I feared I was going to have to start talking to self (not that I don't) and here you are!
I know two of us are still traveling and I hope everybody can get here soon.
What wonderful points.
ISN'T he a puzzle? I swing back and forth like a monkey between trees about him. NOT counting Kevin Kline's character in the movie, this book is different, let's do the book first so we can appreciate what the filmmakers did.
Pedln, that's a super observation about the joy of his teaching and his comments. I recall one about a common wood beetle would know more than XXX. I'm not sure what that is....I mean I lack words to understand what that shows in a person's personality, what that demonstrates in his thinking.
But then at the end when the helicopter brought in the "boys" 41 years later, what joy he had in seeing them, I was just grinning and so happy for him and so startled to realize he had NOT gone down to meet them, he was joyous from afar, from the window. They were grown men. Anybody who has met a student 41 years later can be forgiven if that paunchy bald grandfather is not one he recognizes immediately.
That seems to be his...style: distance. And when he IS close, like at the end with Deepak, who has now two times shared the fact he's had a heart attack, he remarks "But I'm afraid there must always be a reticence between a teacher and his student." HUH? He doesn't even say oh I'm sorry, how are you? Nothing. Is he still trying to be teacher now? To a college professor?
This AFTER he's turned on the TV to facilitate conversation between Deepak and him.
I would SAY he's not good at personal relationships, or he's shy, or he's stiff...do you notice, am I the only one who has remarked.... on his quaint use of language? Capers, Sedgewick was leading the boys in capers?
He's almost from another era.
But he had a relationship with Charles Ellerby, didn't he. He was joyous to find a friend who shared his passion, or as Jonathan says, his "mission." We can understand that. We can vicariously share that.
I wonder if his "mission" was the most important thing in his life so that he ignored the right thing to do...over and over actually.
Jonathan, this was priceless: "The teacher of history finds himself caught up in it. Compelled to add his chapter. To set the record straight? The teacher of character is left puzzled by his own. "
Yes I think he IS conscious of his legacy. And now he's retired. Note the quote about the ONE mistake in life does not ruin a legacy or something like that. And we can see his life in the boardinghouse. But he can still walk 3 miles a day he hastens to add. I'm not dead yet.
You know why fiction is sometimes important? Because in it we can see ourselves and truths. There are a lot of truths here we can learn from. But what ARE they? They change in every sentence. And I missed the Henry Stimpson, because I did not know his dates. OR John Foster Dulles. What does THAT mean? Is he lying to US? Or did the author not look those up?
The story opens with an unusual paragraph of a conflicted soul trying to get at the truth Oh my goodness, what a statement. IS he? DOES he?
I love this book because no man is only one thing or the other. No man is only good. It's like watching a tug of war between the two halves. The trick is, which half has won here? And why?
I am so glad we are discussing it together.
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Good morning, all. Sorry about not being in here yesterday. I was playing chauffeur for George who had his second cataract surgery. My how cataract surgery has changed since I had mine done. Mine were done when I was 45 and they still did cut and stitch.
I am not sure how I feel about Hundert. Several quotes pop into my head, "oh, what a tangled web we weave..." and especially, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." He certainly has put himself in a sort of hell with his self-doubts, regrets, and self-recriminations. Instead of focusing on all the successes, he chooses to focus on one perceived failure. Were there others?
A few things do come to mind when I think of Hundert: naive to some extent, introspective, perhaps one-dimensional, shame.
We see relatively nothing of his relationships with other people, he has a few "friends", no love interests, very little mention of outside interests other than he likes his, not surprisingly, solitary walks. Nor does he seem to take much notice of the current world events which are shaping his students as much or more than ancient history. Here, he may have failed in showing how what happened in ancient times has relevancy in today's world.
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Frybabe, so good to see you here! Yesterday must have been unofficial Eye Day as my husband suffered an injury to his eye, thankfully it appears for now all is well.
What good points on Mr. Hunderdt! "Nor does he seem to take much notice of the current world events which are shaping his students as much or more than ancient history. Here, he may have failed in showing how what happened in ancient times has relevancy in today's world. "
Oh good catch. For an historian which I am not, it does seem to be a bit odd that history's constant repeating itself is not something he'd cite to his students. I'm thinking of Al Quida (sp and who cares) and ISIS in particular relation to the Sequanians and Ariovistus.
I also like your calling him "naive," and "introspective," Frybabe, would you all agree with that? He's kind of stuck in some ways. Are there parts of his story we can feel in sympathy with?
I can't get over how carefully and with what skill this book is written. How skillfully the author has both sucked us INTO the world of Mr. Hunderdt, who does have qualities we can admire (does he?) and who is diffident, seems humble (does he?) and caring. He's lost, isolated, in his own world which he created and which he quite likes: teacher.
And what that means to him. It protects him, to me, sets him apart, it gives him honor and distance from other interactions (and people), and he attained that in his career, he had a long career without outward incident, only to be betrayed.
It's how he handles the betrayals, and there are many in this short story, which I find fascinating. I think betrayal will have to be another theme we look at later. And who betrays him.
Would you all find him "passive aggressive?" How does he handle problems?
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When I first read this book, as I've said, I saw the movie first. And I was charmed by the movie and Kevin Kline and really took to Mr. Hundert because everyone who has taught a long time faces similar scenes where a moral imperative is necessary and the teacher has a lot of power over his own kingdom or classroom which is really the way Mr. Hundert approached it, I think. Note that his career was 41 years ago when he tells (us? Who IS he telling?) this story.
And as a teacher of arcane subjects I can identify with a lot of Mr. Hundert's feelings.
But the book, upon reading and rereading is showing me a lot of different things than I remembered from the movie, and which are startling to me. And I think on this last rereading I really see a stunning thing I never noticed before. I may be wrong (and often am) but am excited to get to that part at the end. It sort of is the icing on the cake of realizing what's actually happening.
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Hello all! I too was on the road to a wonderful lakefront cottage, to spend a glorious day doing nothing but watching my grandkids enjoy the sun and water. I knew I needed a getaway, but gee, never realized how much until I sat there on the deck, just relaxing and chatting with family & friends. One friend in particular is a book addict like me, and saw The Palace Thief sitting on the table, and asked about it. I told her my online book club was going to begin discussing it on the 7th. She asked me what it was about. I told her, "It's only 50 pages long, and deals with the character in a person and morals."
Now how is that for a quick short version, of my take on the story?
Ginny you posed some very good questions to spur on conversation, and I have to tell you that almost every one of them I struggled with before ever seeing them. This story left me thinking for days after reading it. I'm still pondering over it. So, you say let's begin with Mr. Hundert, so we shall.
What is your opinion of Mr. Hundert?
As a teacher of fifteen years, in a private Catholic elementary school (K-8th gr), I was excited to know this story was about a teacher, in a similar type of school. Mr. Hundert, for me was disappointing. I am a person who believes in honesty, integrity, and fairness at all times. So, when Mr. Hundert decided to alter the outcome of who would participate in the contest, immediately I was annoyed. But actually, from the very instant Sedgewick Bell entered Mr. Hundert's classroom, I felt, he became the one in command. He not only intimidated all the rest of the students, who were wearing togas, but he also saw he intimidated Mr. Hundert.
As young Sedgewick Bell stood in the doorway of that classroom his first day at St. Benedict's, however, it was apparent that such efforts would be lost on him. I could see that he was not only a dullard but a roustabout.
I had taught for several years already, as I have said, and I knew the look of frightened, desperate bravura on a new boy's face. Sedgewick Bell did not wear this look. Rather, he wore one of disdain. The boys, fifteen in all, were instantly intimidated into sensing the foolishness of their improvised cloaks, and one of them Fred Masoudi, the leader of the dullards__though far from dullard himself__said, to mild laughter, "Where's your toga, kid?" Sedgewick Bell answered, "Your mother must be wearing your pants today." It took me a moment to regain the attention of the class__"[/b]
Here at this moment, is where Sedgewick knew he not only was in charge of the students, but also the teacher. Everything that transpires after this day, was ultimately controlled by Sedgewick. As a teacher, I saw many Sedgewick's walk into my classroom, and realized immediately, I would have to show this student, and my classroom as a whole, who was in control, or else I would lose respect of the students. I indeed, began to lose respect for Mr. Hundert at this time. Not, to say he could not earn back my respect throughout the story.
Off on another day out so will check back later. I love all the comments everyone has, and Barb I saw your comment earlier, and glad you enjoyed the card. :)
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I spent yesterday traveling, and only got in at 2 am, so I'm going to have to wait until my brain makes it all the way back (I think it's going over the Appalachians about now). But I'm very glad we're discussing this story, because I have all sorts of conflicting ideas about it, and I'm not sure what I think. I'll be back.
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Welcome back, Bellamarie, and Pat! There's nothing like a short break to recharge batteries!
That's a very good summary, Bellamarie. :)
This is a very good point, Bellamarie: "But actually, from the very instant Sedgewick Bell entered Mr. Hundert's classroom, I felt, he became the one in command. He not only intimidated all the rest of the students, who were wearing togas, but he also saw he intimidated Mr. Hundert."
Why, do you think? Why did that happen? What was it in Mr. Hunderdt's character which allowed this TO happen? I think he said it was early on in his career, maybe in the first five years, he would have been young, himself.
I think for a lot of reasons this is a crucial scene tho it does not appear so initially, in the plot.
Pat, I am so glad you agree, I'm also glad we're discussing it. It's perfect for a book discussion and I'm glad we finally got around to it after all these years. I'm like you, full of conflicting ideas which change daily. I'm almost afraid to read it again lest I discover something else I missed.
Can't wait to hear what you think!
Tomorrow and Friday I have a little overnight visitor. I intend to get in here early and late both days but in the interim, do feel free to talk to each other about this enigma of a book.
We'll have a good old fashioned gab fest! :)
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Mr. Hundert intimidated? Not on your life. As it turns out, in the end Mr. Hundert is captivated by Sedgewick Bell who get's more than his share of the teacher's attention.
But of course young Bell is a problem and Ginny asks: 'How does he, Mr. Hundert the teacher, handle problems?' Let me quote:
'At a boy's school, of course, punishment is a cultivated art. Whenever one of these (Bell's) antics occurred, I simply made a point of calling on Sedgewick Bell to answer a question. General laughter usually followed his stabs at answers, and although Sedgewick himself usually laughed along with everyone else, it did not require a great deal of insight to know that the tactic would work. The organized events began to occur less frequently.'
Mr Hundert, after all, is deterimined to mold the boys' characters. Young Bell succeeds in seducing his teacher into compromising his principles.
Only 50 pages long...but what a long, long journey. Fory years of teaching and in the end a somewhat bitter, disillusioned old man, being very hard on himself.
First paragraph: 'I tell this story...only to record certain foretellable incidents in the life of a well-known man, in the event that the brief candle of his days may sometime cone under the scrutiny of another student of history. That is all.'
What irony!
Marj, the comment you made, in Library, about the Hilary Mantel book, seems very apt in this story:
'She starts out writing about the childhoods of Robespierre and two of his revolutionary acquaintenances. Since so little is known of their earliy lives, she has IMO done a great job of writing about them based on what is known of their later lives.'
I hope you don't mind my quoting it.
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Jonathan:
Young Bell succeeds in seducing his teacher into compromising his principles.
I feel that Bell is a person who manages to corrupt those around him, sometimes deliberately, and sometimes just by what he's like.
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Jonathan,
Mr. Hundert intimidated? Not on your life. As it turns out, in the end Mr. Hundert is captivated by Sedgewick Bell who get's more than his share of the teacher's attention.
I am not surprised we disagree, but as you point out: Young Bell succeeds in seducing his teacher into compromising his principles.
Anyone who can get you to compromise your own principles, has a command over you. I see intimidation, by Mr. Hundert's first impression, comments and actions with Sedgewick. Mr. Hundert, sends Sedgewick to the board to "copy out the emperors. Of course, he did not know the names of any of them, and my boys had to call them out, repeatedly correcting his spelling as he wrote in a sloppy hand:" all the while lifting and resettling the legs of his short pants in mockery of what his classmates were wearing. "Young man," I said, "this is a serious class, and I expect that you will take it seriously." "It it's such a serious class, then why're they all wearing dresses?" he responded, again to laughter, although by now Fred Masoudi had loosened the rope belt at his waist and the boys around him were shifting uncomfortably in their togas. From the first day, Sedgewick Bell was a boor and a bully, a damper to the illumination of the eager minds of my boys and a purveyor of the mean-spirited humor that is like kerosene in a school such as ours."
Mr. H. can see this one individual, has turned his classroom upside down in seconds of entering the classroom. He has resorted to calling him a boor and a bully, and even when he sees he is not the least bit intelligent to the class lesson, he still does compromise his morals and judgement by allowing him to be in the contest.
But what is more interesting for me, is why would Mr. H., allow this to go on? Why would he seem to resort to an immature behavior, and begin immediately trying to ridicule Sedgewick by making him go to the board and copy the emperors? That was like throwing down a challenge, a gauntlet so to speak, letting Sedgewick see he has indeed rattled the teacher, and how does Sedgewick react to this challenge, being told this is a serious class? He turns right around and cracks a joke. Showing no respect for the authority of his teacher, and sending the message to the rest of his fellow students, he is in control. Their reactions are to feel uncomfortable, and show Sedgewick they are bending to him.
Since I have personally dealt with Sedgewicks in my teaching career, what I would have done differently, is have Sedgewick take his seat in class, and give him little to no attention. Carry on with the lesson.
Do you suppose it is Mr. H.'s lack of experience, since he has only taught for a few years that has him reacting to Sedgewick? Or could it be that Mr. H., is a bit bored with teaching this class that conforms to his seriousness, and is looking for a bit of challenge in this "roustabout"? And, if so, has Mr. H., bitten off more than he expected?
PatH., I have to agree with you. I see Sedgewick has a personality that demands attention, and gets it in whatever way possible. If disruption is a means to get it, than that is what he will do. He is young, immature, reckless, spoiled, entitled, challenges authority, and yes, wants acceptance, even if it means getting it in a negative way. Sadly, Mr. H., buys into it.
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Only read it yesterday and I've been mulling on it ever since - I've a couple of different reactions -
One reaction is - the story reminded me of Bull Deer during the Rut - there was Mr. Hunderdt in his prime holding onto his herd and along comes a newly matured Bull, Sedgewick Bell fighting for position and then the story continues with one rut after the other of bulls fighting to overwhelm Mr. Hunderdt for relevance till he finally ages and looses his herd.
Then I saw each using their skill, accumulated knowledge and experience in their respective careers as their ammunition to fight for dominance/power suggesting, 'my ammunition has more value than yours for the greater good of the herd'.
Midway in the story there is a change of tone when Mr. Hunderdt seems less full of himself and his sincere concern for teaching moral values is brought out but then his timidity prevents his values from becoming a public statement for others to use as the example of the acceptable measurement for behavior.
I thought the bit about the fear shown for a minute in the face of Sedgewick Bell while on stage a perfect metaphor to the concept of the wizard behind the curtain as in the Wizard of Oz.
In that they, Mr. Hunderdt and Sedgewick Bell are like the twin coin Janus - one looks to the past, ancient hsitory as his ammunition for power and the other looks to the future as a Wizard of Oz that is his ammunition for power.
The author seemed to have cut out and explore only one drama in life - the competition for power and how the choice is made who wears the laurels of power and how those wearing the crown of power show their strengths and their moral weaknesses and finally how the stake holders of power see and evaluate each other.
The story reminded me of becoming a Real Estate Agent - we must attend hours and hours of classes (240 hours) to pass a test that has little to do with helping anyone buy or sell real estate - things like knowing the amount of cement in a driveway of a certain size - never came up in my 35 years of doing the job - or the number of permanent members and the number of appointed members to the Texas Real Estate Commission - only time I ever need TREC is to download, what used to come in pad form before the internet, our contracts and to expect every year or so another addendum will be added or another form or the contract will be significantly changed and the number of hours of education required to renew our license will be changed. Yet, we had to memorize for the test the membership and bylaws of TREC.
Then like Sedgewick in business and in politics - only after we pass this test do we learn what really matters to our mutual pocketbook, how to be acceptable, liked, trusted in order for someone to put in our hands the sale of their most prized and most valuable possession.
And so where I see the author using cheating as the moral issue for this aspect of life, that can or cannot be an issue according to each, who carry out the role of selling to the public or their ability to represent them in politics. Some cheat and some do not who are successful business man, who knows how to bring a product that will please and make money while bringing value to their clients - I have also seen teachers, like our Mr. Hunderdt, who teach from their ego attempting to make it fun or real with ploys like play-acting rather than, teaching students how to get out of the subject what is or will be relevant to their life.
And so, for each tit there is a tat - in other words for each skill that will benefit others as either a teacher or as a public servant in business or in politics there is a moral weakness in each of these characters -
Also, I thought the two in the teaching profession, who are not fully developed were foils for an aspect of creating relationships in the private school teaching world which appears to be one of the arena's for the power rut. The one, Mr. Hunderdt did think of as an intimate friend, who he shared his thoughts and experiences but who pushes him out of power - Charles Ellerby. The other, who could have been an intimate friend even though there was an age difference, Mr. Hunderdt thinks it is unseemly to hear of his health issues or share his feelings so, he keeps an emotional distance with Deepak Mehta.
Yep, agree you can go on and on with various aspects of this story - a lot packed into a short story.
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So much in 50 pages. Mr. Hundert's world is St. Benedict's School. He is the proverbial big fish in a little pond. I find it interesting that myopia kept him out of the service. Myopia meaning near sightedness or the blurring of distant objects. Or, as many of you already pointed out, he seems unable to see beyond the gates of St. Benedict's. Since he keeps to himself, has no known love interest it occurred to me he might be gay. This was certainly not a time period to be able to "come out". This was also a period of great change in our society. The war overseas had ended but a new war was beginning at home....questioning the establishment. The Beat Generation, students, beatniks and hippies. How does a Mr. Hundert cope? I see the '50s as a rather plastic time, looks good on the outside but not so good behind closed doors. Everything had to be perfect, matching hats, shoes and purses, don't wear white after Labor Day, don't ask why just do as I say. I'm rambling but I'm sure you all get the point. Mr. Hundert feels very safe and secure at St. Benedict's.
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Barbara! There you are, I wondered where you were! Lots to chew on in your analysis!
You all are raising a lot of issues which are critical, I think, anyway, to understanding what the author is doing here. And I think next week we will need to look at them, themes if you will, power, betrayal, timidity, for starters. I will make a list over the weekend of your mentioning them for next week, because the way Mr. Hunderdt reacts to each of these shows his character, which MAY be the point of the story, so subtly done. And it may not.
Jonathan: I did like your pointing out Marj's quote, how effective that is in comparison with what Canin has done here in portraying Mr. Hunderdt. Or is Mr. Hunderdt doing it?
You quoted:
At a boy's school, of course, punishment is a cultivated art. Whenever one of these (Bell's) antics occurred, I simply made a point of calling on Sedgewick Bell to answer a question. General laughter usually followed his stabs at answers, and
I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned that Mr. Hunderdt's way of "punishing" Sedgewick was to humiliate him publicly. Not once. Not twice. Not three times but apparently continually. This is not in any teacher's manual.
What kind of personality does this type of thing? How could Sedgewick have known that first day who the Emperors of Rome in order were? That was his first encounter with Mr. Hunderdt. Shades of Barbara's rut thesis but a lot more subtle. More passive. Who could accuse a teacher of asking a question of a new student? Even one a new student could not possibly have known. Isn't THAT a shade of what's coming?
Yes it's true back in the good old days that this type of thing went on for control of a classroom. What lesson did it teach Sedgewick?
Only 50 pages long...but what a long, long journey. Forty years of teaching and in the end a somewhat bitter, disillusioned old man, being very hard on himself.
IS he? Why am I seeing excuses? Justifications? Who is he trying to convince or impress (?) in telling his story? That's an excellent question which is not a question and we need to look at it in more depth or I do anyway. It's tantalizing to feel you're nearing the answer only to have it snatched away in an instant.
What a thing it is to be old. Is that what has prompted Mr. Hundert's ...story? Don't you find that some things that you passed over in your youth may now resound with you in the quiet moments? Maybe that's what's happening to Mr. Hundert. (I love that name by the way, a twist on hundred... a childish pronunciation of hundred, come to think of it).
Bellamarie said: I see intimidation, I am wondering on whose part? All teachers have had to deal with Sedgewick Bells in their tenure. Back when I started in the early '60's things were a lot different then they are today and perhaps this is what Mr. Hunderdt is referring to. These methods he's using are despotic. Could we say these actually are his first mistakes tho he points to a more egregious one later? He, however, does not present himself as despotic but as an idealist with a proven track record of teaching the mighty men to be and the sons of the mighty, and imparting on them the lessons of history.
Good points! From Everybody.
Barbara said:
Midway in the story there is a change of tone when Mr. Hunderdt seems less full of himself and his sincere concern for teaching moral values is brought out but then his timidity prevents his values from becoming a public statement for others to use as the example of the acceptable measurement for behavior.
Timidity, we are going to have to get up a list of his personal characteristics here, he's timid. How many many ways does that show up? It's OK to be timid and to be diffident...it's fascinating to me the efforts he goes to to get around that timidity. None of them particularly positive.
Pat: good point: I feel that Bell is a person who manages to corrupt those around him, sometimes deliberately, and sometimes just by what he's like.
I am wondering why Mr. Hunderdt, however, fell under his spell. He's a child. Bellamarie noted Mr. Hunderdt was also young. What did Sedgewick mean to Mr. Hunderdt? Was he thinking that his current class did not have any more John Foster Dulles type students and here was the son of Hiram Bell? Was Sedgewick his chance this year?
He manages to hold back personally from Deepak, even when Deepak pays him the ultimate compliment TWICE in coming to see him and in reaching out to him personally. A "teacher" could hardly ask for more.
Barbara said "how the choice is made who wears the laurels of power and how those wearing the crown of power show their strengths and their moral weaknesses..."
What choices for power do you all think Mr. Hunderdt actually has?
Could not ASK for a better beginning to a discussion! Thank you all!
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Halcyon! We were posting together last night, and I missed your post! I wondered where you were, too, and here you are!
I am so glad I decided to read over all of your great posts this morning and suddenly there you were, a reward this early morning.
Great points!
I was idly thinking yesterday there are no women at all in this but isn't there a landlady? But only on the fringes at the end.
He seems unable to see beyond the gates of St. Benedict's. That's a stunning thought in itself, especially for a man who seems dedicated to molding the future characters in boys. I'm wondering, now that you have talked about myopia, I wonder which "service" this is? They were still drafting in the early '60's when I taught, but I have the feeling this is intended as an older piece. In fact when I started some of my 9th graders were only a year or two younger than I was. I was 21, and I had some 9th graders who were 19. That was the times. If you failed a student he could be drafted back then, so who fails a student? So they didn't progress but they didn't fail. A different world, and Mr. Hunderdt has made it his own.
Is it a fault, is it his fault, that Mr. Hunderdt's entire world is bounded by St. Benedicts? That his calling, his mission is to teach? He's happy, is he happy initially? Would you say he was a happy man when this all started? Happy with his place in the world and he doesn't need anybody else and the one time he tries...look what happens.
What would you say makes Mr. Hunderdt happy?
Is he, or the Mr. Hunderdt we meet here, is he presenting himself as a happy disciple of learning or history rising in his own little world (in this is he Everyman, rising in his chosen field, being a good "company man," tho the company in this case is St. Benedicts) who runs afoul of the "one mistake," (he does keep saying it's one mistake) and is now ruefully trying to explain it to us and his own mirror in old age? It seems to have been a series of blows, tho. Are they connected? Does his reaction to any of them make them worse?
Would you say this is rueful in tone?
Loved your point about the 50's and '60's, could this have been earlier? What time period DO we think this was? I remember those "dress codes," I remember days you were supposed to wear one color, what a rigid existence the school kids could impose on their own.
Loved this: "Mr. Hundert feels very safe and secure at St. Benedict's."
At least when the story opens he does. But not for long in our story. What seems to be his undoing, do you all think?
His love seems to be......? History? Teaching? St. Benedicts? A shy bookish man almost living the life of a monk? Cloistered away with his plaques about Nahhunte and his recitations of Ozymandias, both cautionary tales. I wonder why he is not thinking they apply to himself.
I was somewhat surprised at his meager living quarters, even tho he says he's moved up in the world of St. Benedicts, I can't imagine a married man trying to live in those conditions, what did you all think about that?
One thing I've been wondering: why did he take the gun, do you all think? And why did he throw it away?
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St. Benedict's, today, still teaches classical education. While there are other St. Benedict's schools, I am assuming this is the one used as the story setting. Richmond is close to Washington, DC where Mr. Hundert spend a day, the only trip mentioned in the story except for the site of the Mr. Julius Caesar rematch.
http://www.saintbenedictschool.org/about-us/classical-education/
I was wondering why Mr. Hundert, upon being forced to retire, would want to stay so close to his final humiliation of being forced out. A final act of his timidity as pointed out earlier? Apparently not having cultivated any outside interests, moving farther away would have put him way out of his comfort zone. For me, I would not have wanted anywhere near a constant reminder of being betrayed by a friend and discarded as obsolete. I can just see him sitting there wallowing over his perceived failure, humiliation and shame to his dieing day. Sad, very sad.
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Ginny,
I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned that Mr. Hundert's way of "punishing" Sedgewick was to humiliate him publicly. Not once. Not twice. Not three times but apparently continually. This is not in any teacher's manual.
Ginny you must have overlooked it, I pointed this out in my #1695 post.
Why would he seem to resort to an immature behavior, and begin immediately trying to ridicule Sedgewick by making him go to the board and copy the emperors?
As a teacher I found this method to be humiliating to Sedgewick, and not a way I feel helps him in any way with dealing with his behavior problems. Sure Mr. H., may have got him to do less antics, but it was because of the ridicule that would come to him. The same as immediately making him go to the blackboard and listing the emperors knowing he did not have that knowledge, and then allowing it to go on where his students not only had to give him the names, but they laughed at him and helped him spell the names as well. This really ruffled my feathers when I read this.
My daughter was treated like this by a teacher in 6th gr. at the private Catholic school I taught at, and I went and confronted the teacher and the principal and told them it is to never happen again. Ridiculing a student is NOT and NEVER will help them in any way. My daughter had audio perception disability, and this teacher was aware of it, yet she treated her in front of the class as a joke. Mr. H., as I said before, lost my respect when I read this, as did my daughter's teacher.
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Looking back in the story on page two Mr. H. tells the reader he met Sedgwick in 1945 after he had been teaching for five years. So I'm assuming his myopia kept him from fighting in WWII. Which made me think of a bigger picture. Maybe Mr. H. represents America. Looking back should we have entered the war earlier? Should we have been of much more help to the Jews? Should we have put our own citizens, Japanese-Americans, in internment camps? So many questions. I have to reread the story. I can't seem to focus on just one notion. Or maybe it's a combination of everything. I certainly don't want to be myopic!
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Frybabe,
I was wondering why Mr. Hundert, upon being forced to retire, would want to stay so close to his final humiliation of being forced out.
I asked myself this question as well. This story has stuck with me, and left a sadness over me. As a teacher, I see where Mr. H., made so many critical mistakes from the minute Sedgewick entered his class, to the very end of the story, allowing himself to be manipulated back into the same scenario. As a parent it just grips at my heartstrings to see how Mr. H., had an opportunity to help this young boy, and failed him. Instead he seems to have allowed his own selfish, arrogant, insecurities get in his own way of being a better teacher than he could have been. I got the sense, he as the narrator, was puffing himself up, yet drowning in self pity, self denial, self adoration. He engages in a game with a young immature student, and can't seem to even let it go in the later years of his life. I felt it was Karma that came back around and bit him in the a$$, when his thought to be good friend robbed him of his position. Did he not rob young Sedgwick of his self confidence, being treated the way he was in his class?
Halcyon, you make an interesting point, about the possibility of Mr. H., being gay, although we will never know for certain, since it was never touched on in the story. At this time it would not be something that could ever be brought out. He would certainly never be allowed to teach around students, especially boys if it were even suspected.
Ginny, This is surely a story filled with questions, and questions you have presented to us, excellent ones if I might say so. It's like a prism, you can look at it and read it from so many different perspectives, and see so many different hues of color each time. It gives me chills, because from my teaching experience I know we have one shot at helping students like Sedgewick, and we can and have made a huge difference in helping those type of students, yet I feel from a teacher's view, Mr. H., failed him miserably.
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Ginny asked: In the opening lines he says in several ways what the story is not about, so what IS it about?
First paragraph of story: "I tell it only to record certain foretellable incidents in the life of a well- known man, in the event that the brief candle of his days may sometime come under the scrutiny of another student of history."
Second paragraph of story: "I taught a boy who, if not for the vengeful recriminations of the tabloids, would today have been president of the United States."
Was he speaking of the same person? Was it Sedgwick? Surely he's not talking about himself in the first paragraph?
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Yes, Halcyon, Mr. H., was talking of Sedgewick, and it appears from this statement, Sedgewick did not fare well with the press, keeping him from becoming president. But then again, Mr. H., is the narrator, and could be once again puffing himself up, by assuming Sedgewick could have made it to the presidency. He sort of leaves the reader to believe Sedgewick has been cheated out of the possibility. I have more thoughts on this, but will wait til we get closer to the end to put them together.
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Halcyon he sure seems to live vicariously through his students doesn't he - my take on his myopia is that he lives such an insular life and is teaching with beliefs similar to the 1930s rather than the 1950s - Women may have had a paper doll type lifestyle but the men were making new things happen - even though they too looked like a uniform group the world was open to them to achieve as compared to only a few having opportunity to achieve greatness before WWII which could have been as a result of the long decade of frozen circumstances because of the crash of 1929 followed by ten years of depression.
Before WWII only 5% of the population had a collage education and if this is about the time after the war than we had returning soldiers cramming in collage and for some high school classrooms, sitting on the floor and in halls and on steps. After what they had experienced they were not putting up with myopic learning - everything had to be relevant.
I had not put it together just how insular he was - thanks for that - yes, like that bit on PBS of the goldfish jumping from its tank only the couple of times he leaves the campus he sure does not get further than making it to the tank in the store window much less to the bottled water on the truck nor the leap into the river.
Now I am seeing another dichotomy - the story is told so that Mr. Hunderdt shows some envy, yet disdain and fascination for the world of business and politics - in one breath is sounds like he feels superior and in another he wants to feel his input was responsible for the success of these boys/men - and then on the part of the successful in business and politics, they see graduating from the school like a necessary step but only one step that is limited compared to other higher and more meaningful steps to success. Their own success as students or the success of their son as Sedgewick's Dad saw it, was all that mattered; not the life experiences of the teachers. As grown men, Sedgewick and his fellow classmates talk fondly with Mr. Hunderdt but it is more like he was a prop on the stage of their life.
Haha Sedgewick sure knows how to do it doesn't he - wine them and dine them which can be written off as a business expense since he includes a speech during the weekend and then when they are feeling relaxed having had a good time hit them up for a political donation. Sure trumps Mr. Hunderdt's attempt to obtain a big donation which again would be a tax deduction. Almost a repeat of Sedgewick topping Mr Hunderdt by making motions with his pants the first day in class - haha more of the sly maneuvers bull deer to bull deer during a rut.
As to "myopia kept him from fighting in WWII. Which made me think of a bigger picture. Maybe Mr. H. represents America." Sure would be typical of us through the 50s and the 60s wouldn't it - I am thinking back and I do not think we started to question or even examine any of the negative issues surrounding the war years or pre-war years - seems to me it was not till after Kent State that there were adults a generation removed who analyzed and spoke up so that by the time these men were being wined and dined by Sedgewick maybe only then would these questions be an issue. So that they all had a myopic association with the war believing only in the concept of the 'Greatest Generation'. Is that Mr. Hunderdt's legacy I wonder?
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There is one possible mention of gayness, though not one to be taken seriously. Hundert calls Sedgewick to his office to discuss his poor performance:
"Sit down, boy."
"You're not married, are you, sir?"
"No, Sedgewick, I am not. However, we are here to talk about you."
"That's why you like puttin' us in togas, right?"
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Ah! PatH. That was a good find. I had forgotten this.
OMG! I understand how everyone says they go back and read this, and more things just pop out at you. In the first paragraph he says, "This is a story without surprises."
Yet, it indeed is full of surprises. Or maybe what I see are contradictions, all throughout the story. He says, "Nor do I tell it in apology for St. Benedict's School, for St. Benedict's School needs no apologies."
The school did nothing wrong. Mr. H., in fact was in the wrong, and should be apologizing to these students, parents, and the school.
He takes the gun Senator Bell gives to him, if for no other reason than to feel important. Then he goes on to tell Senator Bell, "It's my job, sir to mold your son's character." Seriously??? I just about flipped out reading such a bold statement. Kudos for Senator Bell's response, "I'm sorry, young man," he said slowly, "but you will not mold him. I will mold him. You will merely teach him."
Barb, Mr. H., is not only living vicariously through his students, but he is thinking his job is beyond his qualifications, and responsibilities. He surely has a God like image of himself. Narcissistic comes to mind here.
Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.
This sure sums Mr. H., up in my opinion.
A teacher can have an impact on a student's life. I have had former students come to me years later, as adults, and tell me certain things I may have taught them, that helped them at some point in their life. It is flattering as a teacher, to hear these things, BUT, in NO WAY would I a take credit for the outcome of who they become in life, or take credit for their successes or failures. And, certainly I would never imagine, I would be the one molding a student's character. The arrogance of his statement is so unbelievable!
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When I read Hundert' s remark that his job is to mold his student's character, I thought oh how snobby, British old school of him. Haven't I seen this attitude in plenty of BBC/PBS programs set at elite boarding schools and universities?
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Bellamarie writes: Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.
I'm not sure I agree with all that. I think teaching methods during that time period were a lot different and teachers were made to feel very powerful because of their education and position. Barb said only 5% of the population had attended college before WWII. That would mean to me that a lot of folks may have been intimidated by the higher education of a teacher. Mr. H. did have empathy for Sedgwick. After his meeting with the senator he ponders: "I considered what it must have been like to have been raised under such a tyrant. My heart warmed somewhat toward young Sedgwick." And again on giving Sedgwick the benefit of the doubt in quizzes: "...then I was merely trying to encourage the nascent curiosity of a boy who, to all appearances, was struggling gamely from beneath the formidable umbra of his father." And again after his parents walked out when Sedgwick didn't win the garland of Laurel: "I believe I had my first inkling then of the mighty forces that would twist the life of that boy."
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Well, with a jet lag hangover I arrive here in hopes of making a startling observation. Now I'm totally befuddled by Ginnie's first question. A good one it is but the word to describe Mr. H remains elusive to me. Reading this novella, I had a sense that I had met him; listened to him, encountered him somewhere because his whole persona frankly bugs the hell out of me.
Pedln described him as dull and I hate apathy so I must agree with that description. He strikes me as an uninteresting, monotonous teacher and as Ginny says “ his style is distance.” I don't like people that dissociate themselves leaving an aloofness and a feeling of being remote. Yes, that's it, he is remote!
In my time we would giggle and call him an old fart.” But I need to remind myself that he was young here when he first taught these boys, unlike any young teacher I've ever encountered who are just filled with animation and delight in teaching.
Pedln used the word JOY (lack thereof) and that's spot on. He shows no bounce, no sense of gladness or delight. If he weren't such a dolt I'd actually feel pity for him.
Even with his detachment I have the feeling that he wants to be prominent, illustrious even arresting but he is not Yes, Ginny I think conflicted is a good word; having a tug of war with himself.
I will pot this as it's a new computer and I do not wish to lose a post.
Once again, my apologies for being late and getting behind in our discussion. You have all brought so much here to address and we've just started.
Does anybody else feel this way?
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Frybaby- yes, he does seems isolated in his own world and seems perfectly fine with that fact. Yes, who does he think he is molding anybody? For crying out loud he's still wet behind the ears. GRRR
Jonathan- I love it when you are in a discussion. The thoughts that you bring cause me to sit back in my chair and really ponder. i.e. The teacher of history finds himself caught up in it. Compelled to add his chapter. To set the record straight? The teacher of character is left puzzled by his own.
I ask, If the past is history and the future is a mystery how in the world can he expect to add his own chapter?
PatH- I agree with the assessment that he could have been gay. It points in that direction. I don't want to monopolize so I will return for further comments on your posts.
I just reread Bella's comments and it struck a very big cord with me.
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Of course Mr Hundert was counting on the help of Shutruk-Nahhunte, Ozymandias and all the club of emperors to assist in the molding. A classical scholar, teaching the boys about ancient heros, handicapped by myopia. What an irony.
Did a kid like Sedgewick need help? At thirteen. This privileged kid, growing up in the shadow of power as Mr H puts it.
'these methods he's using are despotic'
'there are no women at all in this'
There are answers in this quote:
'...the hope that I could give to my boys the more important vision that my classical studies had given to me. I knew that they responded best to challenge. I knew that a teacher who coddled them at that age would only hold them back, would keep them in the bosoms of their mothers so long that they would remain weak-minded through preparatory school and inevitably then through college. The best of my own teachers had been tyrants. I well remembered this. Yet at that moment I felt an inexplicable pity for the boy.'
Does that make us feel more kindly about Mr Hundert? Tradition means a lot to him.
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Oh Halcyon, I do believe you have been a bit tricked by Mr. H.'s over inflated ego, by his statements. You realize he is feeling sorry for Sedgewick at these moments because he is judging the parenting skills, and he is judging the parenting skills because the Senator has put him in his place.
He resorts to putting others down, to build himself up. This has very little to do with time and era, this man is arrogant, and judges others with a measuring stick, he does not use for himself. He makes poor decisions, breaks rules, cheats a student out of his rightful place in the contest, then cheats Sedgewick with a question not in the content of material required to know (because he refuses to call him out on his cheating), and then has the audacity to think how he handled it was fair, and goes on to put pity on Sedgewick for having parents he deems lacking.
Mr. H. Is truly gotten himself in a quandary, and is trying to find fault with others, to justify his own wrong doings. He has overstepped his place, thinking he had more power, responsibility, and position as a teacher, and the Senator let him know this, with clarity.
What really stood out for me was when the Senator called after the contest and confronted him about the question not being in the Outline, "now, I'm not asking you to correct anything this time, you understand. My son has told me a great deal about you, Mr. Hundert. If I were you, I'd remember that."
This not only sounded threatening, but it made me wonder just what has Sedgewick told his father, to give him reason to make this statement? Here, once again the gay issue could be an underlying thought.
Alf, I'm right with you on your feelings about Mr. H.
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No, Jonathan, it does not change my feelings about Mr. H. His words don't match up with his actions. He's not here to save the boys, they don't need saving, he is here to teach. He seems to have himself intertwined, and is making judgements and decisions based on his alter ego, and possibly his weaknesses as a boy. Where does he get off deciding what is best for them? And does he feel pity for Sedgewick, who has parents attending his school activity, backing him up, giving him a good life, prominent in society, being proactive in their son's life, or.....does he feel pity for himself? Why would he feel pity for Sedgewick?
This is a large leap of assumption on his part, I knew that a teacher who coddled them at that age would only hold them back, would keep them in the bosoms of their mothers so long that they would remain weak-minded through preparatory school and inevitably then through college.
So, as he sees it, the father or mother has no place, or good judgement, for what is best for their child, only he seems to know what is best. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr......... He really is annoying to me.
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Mr Hundert is given a girlfriend in the movie, and I believe the author said he was very happy with the movie. The ambiguity in our story is unfortunate I think. And yet, at the end Mr Hundert says things like 'the boy had become an obsession for me', and 'I well knew the charisma of the boy'. This story is a puzzler. In the end each betrayed the other. There was something other than sex about this teacher/student relationship.
Welcome aboard, ALF. We need your wise head in this one.
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Yes, Jonathan, Mr. H. admits he had an obsession with Sedgewick. I don't know if it involved anything to do with sex, but he surely from the minute he saw him enter his classroom, allowed himself to alter his behavior, thinking, actions, judgement, morals, etc., etc. Even in the end, he could not resist going to that rally, and yet it is just another set up, when he goes to speak on stage with Sedgewick, feeling all special to get recognition, only to see it was Sedgewick's final blow to him.
"My history teacher," he said, as the crowd began to cheer again. Flashbulbs popped and I moved instinctively toward the front of the platform. "Mr. Hundert," he boomed, "from forty-five years ago at Richmond Central High." It took me a moment to realize what he had said. By then he too was clapping and at the same time lowering his head in what must have appeared to the men below to be respect for me. The blood engorged my veins. "Just a minute," I said, stepping back to my own microphone. "I taught you at St. Benedict's School in Woodmere, Virginia. Here is a blazer." Of course, it makes no difference in the course of history that as I tried to hold up the coat Sedgewick Bell moved swiftly across the podium, took it from my grip, and raised my arm high in his own, and that this pose, of all things, sent the miners in jubilation; makes no difference that by the time I spoke, he had gestured with his hand so that one of his aides had already shut off my microphone. For one does not alter history without conviction. It is enough to know that I did speak, and certainly a consolation that Sedgewick Bell realized, finally, that I would.
I saved the picture that appeared the following morning in the Gazette: Senator Bell radiating all the populist magnetism of his father, holding high the arm of an old man who has on his face the remnants of a proud and foolish smile.
From day one, Sedgewick knew he was in control of Mr. H., and began making him look like a fool. As the teacher continued to make poor decisions, the student could see he had him in his clutches. Mr. H., could not stay away from that rally. He saved the picture, I think more so because he felt HE won the race, rather than Senator Bell. I have no doubt, he saw himself as the factor, of who Sedgewick turned out to be. Narcissistic indeed! A very lost man.
Sedgewick went after what he wanted in life. He made no apologies for how he got it, and had no lingering guilt. He was like a cat playing with a toy, the toy being Mr. H.
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I see him more as a man with an inferiority complex living vicariously thru his history lessons. Anyone with feelings of inferiority will ultimately belittle those more adept,richer, smarter and/or more privileged. To tear one down, he builds himself up. He's trying to take the upper hand with the kid, all time feeling inferior to him. Age old tactic I am well familiar with.
The kid's a bully as well. He's been spoiled rotten probably with everything money and his fathers position can buy. Daddy rules the roost, so here we build a bully mentality. I know kids like this and parents like this.
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I see the inferiority complex, but he also has a need to be important. To think parents are not capable of molding their own child, so he must do it for them, is incredible. The arrogance of him, to tell the Senator, he must mold his son, was way beyond boundaries a teacher should step.
Gosh, so sorry for all my posts. I was stuck in my house today with rain and cold temps, waiting for renovation to begin from my flooded basement, I feel I got over zealous to discuss this story. :-[
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Bellamarie This not only sounded threatening, but it made me wonder just what has Sedgewick told his father, to give him reason to make this statement? Here, once again the gay issue could be an underlying thought.
I wondered about that too. Would Sedgwick do or say anything to get his father's approval?
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Huh - just hit me - as the old saying goes - Mr. H cannot win for loosing. Think about replacing the father with an unimportant father living in or close to poverty. Then, we have to question would an aversion of a man because of his status in life be any less morally corrupt for a teacher than being enamored with a man because of his wealth and importance.
We are often filled with censure toward a teacher who will not take the time to council parents whose child is disruptive in the classroom. Plus, there has never been a common measure of disruption. Each teacher seems to have their own expectations for behavior and only recently, within the past 20 or maybe 25 years has there been any agreed upon bar for corporal punishment. Even that agreement is skirted with children left in dark cold rooms without furniture as a so-called cooling off or time out space.
If Sedgwick's Dad was even fully employed but say a garbage pickup man or even a lineman with the local electric company and Sedgwick acted as he did in class he would be considered out of line if not a hoodlum.
As to Mr. H suggesting he was molding the boy, well what is it we the public want. If kids get into trouble and it makes the newspaper or girls become pregnant we want teachers to do something about it. Nearly all social ills are placed on the doorstep of teachers as a job for teachers to address. How we came to think this way I have no clue or when this all started because there is no logic when the hours a teacher in High School has a child in front of them is calculated and during that time they are expected to teach a curriculum of study. In that respect Mr. Bell, Sedgewick's Dad is correct, he pays the school to teach his son, and yet, most of us have expected that during their school time a set of values would be instilled.
We vaguely, innately think we know what these values are but parents never collectively or singularly create that list. We depend on the school to list for us their moral based intentions that they expect to instill in the students. Then on top we all, schools and parents do not share a realistic list of values so that most kids are ill prepared for reality if they only learn what we are comfortable with as the basis of what students hear about and learn in the classroom.
As to teaching youngsters moral values associated with business or influence or social versus economic values that is the playground of an adult, we do not want to examine the various alternatives much less do we collectively have a clear idea of how to operate within the power dynamics even in an office much less the seats of power. Or if these are children expecting low income jobs, what are the values they should adopt that allows them dignity rather than feeling they are on the sidelines with the concept beggars have no rights to choice.
I just look at this story and think if Mr. H was visiting a Dad in a tenement or public housing, we would read this and say rah rah rah for him to want to mold the morality, if only the behavior of this Dad's 'Sedgewick'. And so now, I wonder if we judge the behavior of a character based on the status of others in the story. Would we see the insular life of Mr. H as self-protective if St. Benedict's was smack dab in the middle of east L. A. or the South Bronx or where ever these days the poor, who are barely hanging on live?
OK, looking at him in that light I still see his 'need' is for the boys to share his ethereal view of history without helping them relate what they are learning to their lives or even a current worldview. So his teaching style is as if teaching art rather than the value of history that he so well champions when the curriculum is in flux.
And yes, Sedgwick was making a fool of him and he was not handling it well any more than if some young drug runner came to class with gold chains hanging round his neck and his pants hanging lower than is decent. That is when the issue of whose class is it comes into question, the teachers, or the students. That is when we become aware, there is no agreed upon code of behavior drawn up by both students and teachers. This story takes place during the time when we still see vestiges of the power-over model with those who are to obey still revolting if only with passive aggressive tactics.
OK I am ready to give Mr. H a break - he is incompetent yes, but I think he is doing his job. Maybe that is the sadness of this tragedy - they are all acting out in keeping with the power game that took place in and out of the classroom and probably still does.
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Golly what wonderful comments, each one sparkles like a firework and so informative.. And they are all over the place as far as agreement, which is what one longs for. Once my little guest has gone home tomorrow night I have printed these out and want to just sit and enjoy them in an easy chair. And address them then to do them justice.
Jonathan asks: Does that make us feel more kindly about Mr Hundert? Tradition means a lot to him. Barbara is ready to give Mr. Hundert a break. I've felt kindly toward him all along, that's the enigma of the man. The tragedy. Halcyon asked did he represent America, is he a metaphor for America. I do think he's an embodiment, but I don't know what for, yet. Sometimes I think retirement. Sometimes I think old age. Sometimes I think classics. I'm hoping that your comments in this discussion will help clear the air for me.
Frybabe, I was stunned to see there IS a school, I'm sure not related, called St. Benedict Catholic School in Richmond. That is actually a "Latin school," in that Latin is taught there from the first grade, yet the Catholic faith is predominant in their billing and their focus. I would love to know what the school on the cover is, do any of you?
Sorry, Bellamarie, I did not see your "humiliation" remark initially, I was so struck I guess by some of the other things you said. This one today: OMG! I understand how everyone says they go back and read this, and more things just pop out at you. In the first paragraph he says, "This is a story without surprises."
Yet, it indeed is full of surprises. Or maybe what I see are contradictions, all throughout the story. He says, "Nor do I tell it in apology for St. Benedict's School, for St. Benedict's School needs no apologies."
The school did nothing wrong. Mr. H., in fact was in the wrong, and should be apologizing to these students, parents, and the school.
I think the school did do something wrong in the form of it's...principal? At the contest: Mr Woodbridge: "Ignore it, Hunderdt, or look for another job."
That was a crisis for Mr. Hunderdt. He's timid, he's withdrawing, his entire life is that school and what he thinks he's doing : molding character of tomorrow's leaders. What did he WANT? I keep asking myself. What did he want?
Here a moral dilemma not of his making asserts itself. And it's couched in no uncertain terms: comply or lose what matters to you most. And it's HIS glory day, the contest he's done for so long which is such a "big thing" in that school.
I agree on the surprises. Almost every page is a surprise. Why did he tell us there were none?
He's timid. The room is FULL of people, terrifying for an introvert without a role to play of command....This was wrong, it's all wrong, his contest is ruined, but it was not his doing. Speaking up would have taken all he possessed and if he did it he'd lose everything he cared about. So instead he does a passive aggressive act, he's got to stop Sedgewick, the only way he can.
Did he actually think it was OK, do you think?
Tell us, honestly, what would YOU, (speaking to each of the group here at large) have done in his shoes?
I'm not sure not being married is proof of gayness, is it? I don't see gayness here, at all. I see an ascetic. A very repressed man who...as Barbara said about something else, and Andrea said, lives vicariously thru not only his students, but for his teaching.
Halcyon, being in the 40's makes a world of difference, I did not remark on that when I read it. What an interesting statistic Barbara put here. It's also true that IN the 30's and 40's a lot of teachers were not as highly educated as we'd think. I don't think that applies to Mr. Hunderdt, but he gives us no clue on that.
Welcome, Andrea!! Thank you for coming in from a long jet lagged trip, I agree with Jonathan we will enjoy your searing comments on this one. What is it about his personality that you find infuriating? He's not direct as you are, he's really almost the opposite. But he doesn't lack conviction, does he?
I see Barbara swinging back now in his defense. What DO we expcect of teachers? Good points! Here is a man limited in friends, in social interactions (he lives in a spare room in the college, like a school boy tho he hastens to say it's not as if he was living with the boys as formerly, he's risen above that now, he can put the bed back in the wall (did I read that right) and have an office. The man is timid, he's like a lot of scholars, obsessed with the past, which is probably more alive to him than a lot of his contemporaries till he meets Mr. Ellerby.
Pat's quote shows us what, I think, Sedgewick Bell is capable of, even as a young man. There's no telling what he told his father but I think we can guess with the "dress" remark Pat quoted.
Is Mr. Hunderdt happy? I think he was initially. He was ruling his own little kingdom and he ruled it for 41 years and tried ( in his own eyes) to do the job he felt he should do. After all, didn't he teach John Foster Dulles and Henry Stimpson and how MANY illustrious men? He has a proven track record. So he's not the belle of the ball socially. He has his work to which he is devoted. Anything else?
The author states in that interview in the link that he remembers best the martinets of his own education, he learned the most from them. I've forgotten how he puts it but the ones who forced him to learn. Yet he does not particularly recall them as great teachers.
So here's a man with modest ambitions, and modest accomplishments, thrown into a situation which was not of his making. He did not make Sedgewick cheat. He told the authorities. (This is beginning to remind me of some recent scandals). He was told to shut it or his livelihood. That, in its own way, was a betrayal.
Perhaps he's caught up a little too much in the glory of past students and in Hiram Bell, too.
It makes me wonder what IS a teacher?
What wonderful comments you all have generously provided for our thoughts, thank you so much!
Who is worse, Sedgewick Bell or Charles Ellerby? Who is the worst of the three, Sedgewick Bell, Charles Ellerby, or Mr. Woodbridge? How about who is the worst here in the entire thing, Sedgewick Bell, Charles Ellerby, Mr. Woodbridge, or William Hunderdt?
More when I can read again your incredible comments at leisure.
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Well first I have to confess I read all 4 stories. Guess that wasn't the plan for the group, but I didn't know. Besides I rather like the writers style; very straightforward. The style is reminiscent of one of my favorite novels, called Kokoro by the Japanese author Natsume Soseki, published in 1914.
The impression that I am left with of Mr. Hundert is that he is a person who cannot allow himself to be underutilized. He seeks engagement and interaction with others in order to feel alive. This is especially revealed once retirement has been forced upon him and he finds himself completely at sea. Mr. Sedgwick Bell and Mr. Hundert are like north and south poles, attracting and repelling each other at the same time. They are 2 parts of the same puzzle. Mr. Hundert cannot help but be drawn into Mr. Bell's schemes because even if he ends up being ill-used, be is engaged and involved. They each play the same role with each other again and again. The mystery is why Mr. Hundert appears surprised at each outcome, when clearly he is drawn to being used. It is an effective partnership; a giver and a taker.
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Ginny,
So here's a man with modest ambitions, and modest accomplishments, thrown into a situation which was not of his making. He did not make Sedgewick cheat.
While I think you are very generous with not placing any blame on Mr. H., and yes, I have to agree Mr. Woodbridge has accountability for saying, "Ignore it, Hundert, or look for another job." This entire situation was created by Mr. H. He single handedly created this by cheating and giving Sedgewick and A, when he admittedly says he deserved a B, giving him a chance to be given the third spot in the contest. Had Mr. H., not put these wheels in motion, none of this would have happened. Sedgewick would not have been in the contest to cheat, Mr. Woodbridge would not have been put into a situation to make an instant decision on how to handle the cheating.
I do not see Mr. H., as a man with modest ambitions. He has the highest ambition a man in his school would aspire to becoming, the Headmaster.
Barb, I appreciate, and respect your idea of the comparisons of entitled rich vs poverty lifestyles, and how some may decide Mr. H.'s involvement would have been seen differently, but....I have to say this story is what it is, and he was crossing his boundaries in so many levels. I can't give Mr. H., a break. He threw down this gauntlet from the day Sedgewick walked into his classroom. He is the teacher, the authoritative figure, the person a thirteen year old student needed to not challenge him, rather than teach him.
Sedgewick is a young cocky, entitled, not so intelligent, lacking in confidence, thirteen year old, new to this school. He is coming in and needing to fit into a class that has already bonded. A good teacher would have seen his needs, and met them as a teacher, by encouraging camaraderie, rather than ridicule. Sedgewick did not ask to be singled out by Mr. H., he did not ask for Mr. H. to cheat and place him in the contest. I can understand Sedgewick, as a teenager, his behavior is that of many boys his age, and can be understood. As for Mr. H., his behavior is deplorable. He keeps going back and forth with his conscious, yet he can't stop himself from engaging with Sedgwick. His own words were, "the boy had become an obsession for me' Sedgewick did not ask to be Mr. H.'s obsession.
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Ginny,
Who is worse, Sedgewick Bell or Charles Ellerby? Who is the worst of the three, Sedgewick Bell, Charles Ellerby, or Mr. Woodbridge? How about who is the worst here in the entire thing, Sedgewick Bell, Charles Ellerby, Mr. Woodbridge, or William Hunderdt?
In my opinion from a teacher's point of view, from all the workshops I attended on the teacher/student relationships, and how to help build a child's self esteem, self confidence, and help them feel as much a part of your classroom as every other individual, and what boundaries you must not cross, and from a common sense approach in an authoritative position, hands down I feel Mr. Hundert is the worst.
He not only put this entire relationship with Sedgewick into motion from day one, but he continuously engaged in it. He is a teacher, he lost sight of his responsibility and rather be a mentor, he became a challenger/contender, to his thirteen year old student. For whatever reasons he chose to do this, it is unacceptable, and caused a snowball effect on other people's lives, not only his own and Sedgewick's, but everyone else involved from the student who earned his spot in the contest and was cheated out of it, to the students in the contest having to deal with what was happening, to the principal, and then later on it brought in the Senator, Ellerby, and others.
You must understand your actions do affect other people's lives. You can not play God with other people's lives. Mr. H., took it upon himself to use a thirteen year old student to play games with, and made him his, "obsession." Today, that could have gotten him fired, and possibly put in jail for abuse. IMO. If I seem too hard on Mr. Hundert, it's because I felt he was too hard on a thirteen year old student.
As a teacher of thirteen year old students, I understand their vulnerability, their cockiness, their need for attention good or bad, and as a teacher it is my place to meet their needs, leaving my own needs out of it. Plain and simple. I have had many Sedgewicks to deal with, and I expect I will have others in my classroom, at the private school I teach. I could never imagine ridiculing, cheating, and challenging any of my students and engaging with them the way Mr. Hundert did with young Sedgewick, under any circumstances.
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Hi, I've been away, but was reading this discussion the last couple days. Ginny mentioned the story last year in relation to Cicero's son in a piece we were translating, and I read it then. From the time he cheated on his student Deepak and falsley awarded the prize to Sedgewick I really disliked the man. I was so hit by Bellamarie's post about what a belittler and humiliator he was, I had not recognised that when I read the story. But OF-COURSE he was, and I think that's also why I disliked him so much....I agree with her comments wholeheartedly and I wonder about the author's comments that this is a story about a quiet man and the power of teachers to do good and how this is written in memory of one of his teachers......but then I remember one of my memorable teachers and how super she was to me and what a B---- to one of the poor and dumb kids in the class....
his story reminds me of the style and sentiments of an older British novel "To Serve them all His Days"....posh British boarding school, moulding future leaders etc etc........so I see where people think it rings of an older time. That book was post WW1
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Looking into the mention that alumni of St. Benedict's included Henry Stimson and John Foster Dulles, I see that neither one attended as school by that name. However, I did discover an interesting bit about Foster' s son, Avery. Avery converted to Catholizism and eventually became the first American Cardinal. He also founded the St. Benedict Center in Massachusetts.
So, back to our story. Why would the author claim such prominent men had been student's at St. Benedict's when it could so fact-checked and found false? I kind of like some accuracy in fiction when it involves real people and places. Especially when it seems so many people get their impressions of history from fiction and not from reading real historical accounts.
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Welcome back, Nancy! We did post that information here in the discussion and in the original heading (about only the 50 pages) but you may have missed it. I'm sorry we haven't sent out our normal Newsletter but the change to a dedicated IP and the upgrade in software have thrown off our normal doings a bit. But you're back and with some wonderful input, so you've overcome it anyway! I haven't read the other stories, you and Bellamarie seem to be the only two who have, so far. Is any other interesting?
:)
You said: Besides I rather like the writers style; very straightforward. The style is reminiscent of one of my favorite novels, called Kokoro by the Japanese author Natsume Soseki, published in 1914. I thought this was very astute.
It's also reminiscent of a classical author, to whom in fact Mr. Hunderdt compares himself twice. I was struck by that and wondered if anybody else was marking the style of the book, or had noticed the similarity, and now you've introduced another author. I need to get a copy of that Soseki book, I never heard of it.
I would like to talk about why this book reminds me of that author, I think you'll be surprised. I think that perhaps things here are not quite as they seem, we have only Mr. Hundredt's narration for this and I ask again as in the heading, do we think he is a reliable narrator?
He seeks engagement and interaction with others in order to feel alive.
Brilliant. Excuse me for saying so. That's WHY he seeks them out. I had been wondering. I know several noticed his living vicariously, is this the same thing? He's living this way because this is his CALLING, as he says clearly in the heading quote: " I tell this story not for my own honor, for there is little of that here, and not as a warning, for a man of my calling learns quickly that all warnings are in vain..."
This is his vocation, his calling, his all. His entire life is here. Did he fail to be a perfect man? Is he saying, listen, I tried? Listen, in retirement, which is a real theme in this novella, I want it known. Does his love for this vocation override (I know it doesn't for some) his mistakes in reacting to it? Are we going to even allow him to feel good about anything in his career?
Does anybody here doubt how he feels about his work, his vocation? Does he routinely humiliate all the students, they seem to like him well enough, or is this his desperate attempt for control, a young, unseasoned teacher who feels empathy with what Sedgewick must have gone thru: had he experienced that himself growing up? Thinking of Mantel's Cromwell: those who live by the gun will go the same way?
Nobody has answered the question what would YOU have done in the same situation the first time Sedgewick cheated? What would YOU have done? These are very difficult questions, I realize that.
Frybabe, how interesting that connection, I wonder why the author chose those two. GOOD point, Frybabe: So, back to our story. Why would the author claim such prominent men had been student's at St. Benedict's when it could so fact-checked and found false? I kind of like some accuracy in fiction when it involves real people and places. Especially when it seems so many people get their impressions of history from fiction and not from reading real historical accounts.
So is Mr. Hunderdt a reliable narrator? Dr. Canin could certainly have checked those facts, of course this is an imaginary St. Benedicts not the real one but would the dates be wrong too? If so is Mr. Hunderdt sort of embellishing his career?
Dana, welcome! You had SUCH a negative reaction to Mr. Hunderdt initially I hoped you would voice your thoughts, and here you are. You are the very person who can answer WHY. I expect with your reaction you've thrown the book in the trash, but I wonder what your answer would be to why he's acted or reacted as he has throughout the story and to the red item here today? I agree with her comments wholeheartedly and I wonder about the author's comments that this is a story about a quiet man and the power of teachers to do good and how this is written in memory of one of his teachers...... I hope you stay tuned, I think that would make an excellent question itself, maybe for the end? You were expecting Mr. Chips? I have not read To Serve Them All My Days, I've certainly heard of it. Is it similar in theme to this?
Bellamarie, you said, In my opinion from a teacher's point of view, from all the workshops I attended on the teacher/student relationships, and how to help build a child's self esteem, self confidence, and help them feel as much a part of your classroom as every other individual, and what boundaries you must not cross, and from a common sense approach in an authoritative position, hands down I feel Mr. Hundert is the worst.
Thank you for answering the question of who was the worst. Here's one for you: did you attend these workshops in the '40's? I ask because teaching has changed, hasn't it? The methods courses have changed, even from the 50's and early 60's. Do you remember personally the teachers of the 40's by any chance? And Sedgewick Bell was not an elementary student, that's plain in the book if not the movie. He was a real challenge, and they may not have been that many years apart in age initially.
I liked Nancy's polar opposites analogy there, drawn and repelled.
Mr. Hunderdt must have something in his past which has triggered this reaction, just like some of you have teachers in your past this book and theme have awakened to unpleasant memory.
(Just for the record: there were some real monsters teaching in the 40's..real monsters and some of us encountered them. I don't think Mr. Hunderdt was one of them). I mean I have stories that would curl your hair. That does not make Mr. Hnuderdt right, it makes him human like the rest of us.
I can see you think, as do some others, he's awful. I understand. We might like to make a list and see who is on what side. I think he MAY be intended to represent Everyman. But that's still an unformed opinion. I do know that nobody...absolutely nobody.... is only one thing.
I appreciate your opinion, and I really am loving the variety of conclusions everybody is expressing. The more diverse, so far as I am concerned, the better.
Way back at the beginning you mentioned you were" losing respect" for him. I have mulled over this since you said it. The notion of "respecting" a fictional character never occurred to me. Now I'm wondering what is wrong with ME. hahahaha This one will be a really pivotal discussion for me. I'll be back tonight.
So we have the question of who was the worst. I am not sure we have looked closely at the characters of the people involved, maybe we should do that as we move on to theme and plot next week? I hope we're just getting started, too, ALF.
And we have the extremely difficult question in red here. The Lady (er Question) in red. While moral imperatives occur to each of us every day, they don't always come in such dramatic life changing form. What would YOU have done? (Remember the stakes as Mr Hunderdt sees them, not as we see them): He's timid. The room is FULL of people, terrifying for an introvert without a role to play of command....This was wrong, it's all wrong, his contest is ruined, but it was not his doing. Speaking up would have taken all he possessed and if he did it he'd lose everything he cared about. So instead he does a passive aggressive act, he's got to stop Sedgewick, the only way he can. What would you have done in his shoes?
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Ginny:
Do you remember personally the teachers of the 40's by any chance?
I do. I graduated from high school in 1948, so I'm Sedgewick Bell's contemporary. I was pretty clueless back then, so nuances were lost on me, but Hundert's approach seems to me to be pretty standard for the time. Especially in a private prep school for the sons of the rich, character molding would definitely be expected. I had plenty of caring teachers, but there wasn't the emphasis there is now on figuring out a student's problems and helping him overcome them, and I don't think they had much training in the matter to help them.
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Hundert failed miserably with Bell, though I think it would have taken a genius teacher to do anything much with him, but what kind of teacher was he for most of the boys?
He might have been a pretty good one. He's a pretty dry stick, but he's passionate about his subject, and it's importance. Study Roman history; the lessons you learn from it are what you need to be a good leader now. If this passion shone through in his lessons, a receptive student would find him inspiring.
Dana remembers a teacher who was super to her, and awful to another student. I remember my high school geometry teacher. She was probably a nightmare for a struggling student, but if you could hack it, and were willing to do the work, she was amazing. She worked us mercilessly hard, forced us to stretch our minds beyond what we thought possible, and never let up. She taught me to think logically, with a side benefit of some inkling of the Greek world, and I've been grateful to her the all rest of my life.
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Ginny,
This was wrong, it's all wrong, his contest is ruined, but it was not his doing.
I am terribly confused, because you keep pointing out "it was not his doing." The entire mess started with him allowing Sedgewick to be in the contest, when clearly Martin Blythe earned that spot. So this annual prestigious contest was ruined because of Mr. H.
He set this whole thing into motion. This paragraph shows Mr. H., is still attempting to control Sedgewick, due to HIS personal judgements of Senator Bell as a father, which in my opinion is wrong. It's as though he is determined to think he can "mold his character" because his father is lacking.
"I admit that I might have taken a special interest that term of Sedgewick Bell. If I gave him the benefit of the doubt on his quizzes when he straddled two grades, if I began to call on him in class only for those questions I had reason to believe he could answer, then I was merely trying to encourage the nascent curiosity of a boy, who to all appearances, was struggling gamely from beneath the formidable umbra of his father.
You have to keep in mind that Mr. H., has only been at this school for a few years, he is a young teacher, and although he teaches this lesson, I do not see this contest as being, "HIS" but he certainly is going to make sure HE has control of WHO will get a spot in the contest by rooting for one certain student.
The fall term was by then drawing to a close, and the boys had begun the frenzy of preliminary quizzes for the annual "Mr. Julius Caesar" competition. Here again, I suppose I was in my own way rooting for Sedgewick. "Mr. Julius Caesar" is a St. Benedict's tradition, held in reverence among the boys, the kind of mythic ritual that is the currency of a school like ours.
In this paragraph Mr. H., admits he made his "first mistake." I have to disagree with him, I felt his first mistake was to ridicule Sedgewick the first day he walked into his class, and he made many others before he altered Sedgewick's grade to boost him to the third spot of the contest.
"By the end of the narrowing quizzes, however, a surprising configuration had emerged: Sedgewick Bell had pulled himself to within a few points of third place in my class. This was when I made my first mistake. Although I should certainly have known better, I was impressed enough by his efforts that I broke one of the cardinal rules of teaching: I gave him an A on a quiz on which he had earned only a B, and in so, I leapfrogged him over Martin Blythe.
So, Ginny to answer your question in red, what would I have done? I would not have created the entire situation in the first place. But, since Mr. H., indeed created it, and now has to deal with Sedgewick cheating, I would not have asked a question outside of the outline. I would have let the contest proceed to the end. Wait to see if Deepak Mehta would have won, Deepak was a very intelligent student and at some point I feel Sedgewick even with his cheat sheet would have messed up, so in spite of Sedgewick's cheating, and if by a chance Sedgewick did win, I would have given him the win. As far as I am concerned, Deepak and Martin knew the cheating going on, and it was not only Sedgwick doing it. The principal said to ignore it, but he did not say, determine the winner by cheating, yet again.
You keep referring to Mr. H. as timid. I have never gotten the impression he is timid at all. This statement shows Mr. H., was thinking of his own aspirations in the outcome. "Having recently entertained my first thoughts about one day becoming a headmaster myself, I simply nodded when Sedgewick Bell produced the correct answer."
Years later at the reenactment of the contest both boys, now men, call Mr. H. out on his actions. At least they let him know he cheated. There are NO winners when someone first break rules to a contest, and Mr. H., broke the first rule by altering Sedgwick's grade.
Ginny, No, I did not attend classes in the 40's nor did I teach in the 50's, 60's, or 70's, but it does not take workshops or any lesson plans or training, to teach you to be honorable, and to not cheat where students are concerned. I think that is a given when you decide to choose a career in teaching or anything for that matter. The argument of saying we have to look at the era of the story taking place, I feel does not hold weight, because I feel this is indeed happening today. I do not get the feel this story is taking place in the 40's, even though the author has placed it there. But it really would make no difference as far as I am concerned. Cheating in the 40's is no different than cheating in the 21st century. We have a Sedgewick, Mr. H. and Mr. Woodbridge in every era.
You ask if the narrator is believable? In my personal opinion, I would have to answer an absolute NO! He is all over the place. He tells us there are no surprises, yet there are many, he wants us to believe he is an honest fair teacher, but in fact he admits to purposefully making alterations to cheat, not once but many times. He cares about his students so much so that he blatantly tells a Senator, the father of Sedgewick, "he is to mold his son's character" yet as far as I am concerned Mr. H.'s character is in question, as is his motives. He is so concerned for Sedgwick that he fails to see what harm he has done to Deepak or Martin, or even Fred Masoudi, who may have gone further in the contest had Sedgewick not been leapfrogged to be in it.
I am certain we have all experienced horrible teachers, as well as great ones. One teacher to one student, can be a nightmare to another. That still has nothing to do with a teacher becoming "obsessed" with a student to the degree of altering grades, cheating, and jeopardizing your morals and character.
PatH., I have seen many Sedgewicks in my years of teaching, and it does not take a genius teacher to do anything with these type of students, it takes a teacher that is caring, willing to treat them with respect and fairness, include them in with the class, encourage camaraderie, rather than ridicule them and make them an obsession, and most of all don't cross personal boundaries by thinking you are the one who is to mold the character of any student. Sedgewick is only thirteen. You can't compare his actions to that of this teacher. Yes, Mr. H., is young and inexperienced, so he is allowed to make mistakes, but he went beyond just making mistakes. It does not matter if Sedgewick is in elementary, middle school, high school or college, as a mentor/teacher/professor, we are to treat all students at every age level, with respect and fairness. It is our job to teach, NOT mold. That is up to the parents to mold their character, whether we agree with their parenting skills or not, it is not our place to think we can take on their position as Mr. H. did. While he was busy thinking he was molding young Sedgwick, what did his actions do to the other students in his class. In the end we saw it bothered them enough, decades later to confront him on what he did.
We can compare him to other teachers of decades ago, or teachers of today, but in the end....this story was about him and what he did. Ultimately, I believe his lack of character, cost him his aspiration of being the Headmaster. He can blame Ellerby for it, but he was at this school for decades, and Ellerby knew what Mr. H., had done by him confiding in him.
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Ginny has challenged us with the question, "what would you have done"? I will answer this. But first some more thoughts inspired by what others have written here.
Notice that we are never let down by Mr. Sedgwick Bell, he is consistent and predictable in his quest for success, glory and power at any cost. He has developed his old teacher as a reliable tool to help him succeed in school and later in his run for the Senate. He has tested Mr. Hundert and finds him willing and able to sell-out time after time. Why do we expect Mr. Hundert to be less consistent and predictable, and in so doing to vindicate himself and suddenly "do the right thing" when faced with his moral dilemmas?
The reason why we are let down by Mr. Hundert is because of his position and commitment as a teacher. We hope and expect him to take the high ground because it befits his character as someone who is charged to foster character in the young. But he does not. He lacks both the courage and the will to take a stand. With his actions we see that he only seeks to bask in the shared glory of a win whether it was an authentic win or a cheated win.
So what would I do? I really cannot say what I would do in the heat of the moment. But I know I will be tested, because I have in the past. Sometimes I make the difficult choice to take a moral stand, but not always. What I will do in the future will be influenced not do much by when I have made the right choice, but how I have felt later, having not done so.
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But what a sad end for Mr Hundert. Asked to leave after forty years. What does he have to show for it? All he has goes into a suitcase or two, and his refuge is a rooming house. And the photo of him and his successful student. With a proud and foolish smile! Proud of what? Why foolish?
'Do we think he is a reliable narrator?'
I don't see this as a straight forward narration. I see in it a monologue of confessional soul-searching. I find myself hearing King Lear's lament. Or a Hamlet soliloquy on indecision. Something of the lament of a sorely tried Job. All very dramatic.
I believe I met a budding Mr Hundert a long time ago. In the 80s. At the Capitol in Washington. News from Moscow, that President Reagan had negotiated a treaty with the Soviet Union. The media was there in full force,on the lawn, taking the statements of a number of senators. I was standing near Senator Carl Levin ( He has just retired after six terms.) when a young man came up and asked the senator for an autograph. In the book he happened to have in his pocket. Plato's REPUBLIC. A few questions from the senator and it turned out the young man was studying the classics and hoped to be teaching them some day. He got some fine complimentary and encouraging remarks from the senator. Why should I remember that now?
Doesn't Mr Hundert go on and on how times were changing? And not for the better.
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The aspect of this story that I find unsettling is the dynamics between those in power and those who refuse to be victimized by the power.
I was taken with your sentence Nancy - "The reason why we are let down by Mr. Hunderdt is because of his position and commitment as a teacher."
To a student the dynamics in the classroom is, the teacher is the power force and so the word 'teacher' could be replaced by any who hold a power position and who have that position not by an equal process of elevating the most successful as in the winning team or even team member but the process is by appointment based on status, wealth, leadership skills etc. - Policeman, Senator, Bishops, Court Judges, and to a child their parents - unfortunately in the 1940s and 50s the concept of team did not include equal team like status between husband and wife and for some today that is still true. And so, like father like son was an easy leap for boys to feel a sense of entitlement.
I am also aware how much 'marketing' is used to sell the status of leadership and to maintain your place in that power position. e.g. its easy to see the marketing of politicians but the sublet marketing of the value of women and how in the 1950s and early 60s women were the butt of most jokes and were the pack mules carrying the burden of housekeeping with no respect given to a women who worked outside the home. To give Mr. H a wife would give him in this time a mantel of entitlement that would detract the singular focus on his life, 'sins' and moral values.
That said - I see how using Nancy's statement we feel let down by most who are in powerful and leadership positions. Wives expected more from their husbands, children expected more from their parents, the public expects more from the police and politicians, parishioners and church members expect more from the clergy and from Bishops as we all expect more from teachers and teachers expect more from their school principles.
The lack of support that Mr. H receives from his principle, who appears to put money and position ahead of cheating - regardless the trap any of us fall into - powerful leadership role or the victimization of power, either that puts our integrity on the line (as Sedgwick's integrity was diminished by Mr. H) On the line is our moral character, our personal integrity, our view of self and for some even our relationship with our God is wrapped up in how we act - to blame our loss of integrity on another is a cop out -
Like the story of Simon Wiesenthal, who after the freeing of Dachau was among prisoners taking a walk and many purposely destroyed the fields of grain growing along the roadside. Regardless the horror to his body and soul, Simon could not participate and his integrity was at the brink when he wrestled with hearing a Nazi soldier confess as he lay dying.
This is the integrity we hope to see among both those in power and those who are victimized by those who set the bonfire. The bonfire which we must walk through, that baptism of fire that gives us our view of our inner strength - Just as Simon Wiesenthal did not choose to be a martyr to his integrity while he was preserving his life as a prisoner, that is what Mr. H was up against - his work and St. Benedict's was his life -
As Jonathan says, "Asked to leave after forty years. What does he have to show for it?" Yes, he set bonfires but he also continued to live, swallowing and participating in an environment that was not based in the morality he was teaching but rather elevated was status and wealth. Then when his life was given a new turn, he may not have seen it as freedom. He acted like an elephant whose chains are removed, or a caged tiger who is freed but remains in his cage, he cannot leave.
Over the 40 years his integrity is battered but he did stop the run away destruction of Sedgwick taking out Deepak. And as a tired old man with new vigor he thought he has another crack at seeing integrity at play and once again he quietly pulls the plug.
This one theme in the story I find powerful when we look at our own life. If we are cast in an oppressive situation would we be a martyr to preserve our own integrity or would we choose to live, doing incrementally what we could and if we find ourselves in a soul searching struggle would we act with compassion, silence and truth as did Simon Wiesenthal.
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What would I have done when Sedgewick cheated? Would I have cheated the guy who SHOULD have won out of his prize...I sure hope I would not have done that. Who knows, but that did upset me. Perhaps more also because the guy was Indian.
....Suppose Deepak had been an American son of another equally powerful senator....what would he have done then, I wonder?
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The most damage wasn't done to Deepak, who did end up winning the prize when Hundert righted his first cheat with a second cheat by asking a question that wasn't on Sedgewick's cheat sheet. It was done to the boy who would have been the third contestant if Hundert hadn't given Sedgewick the undeserved A on a quiz. This rankled for the boy's whole life (sorry, I'm too lazy to look up his name--it's late). Finally he gets a chance to ask Hundert about it, and his reaction to the answer shows that a lifelong hurt has finally been healed.
Damage was done to Deepak, though, since surely he was aware of the whole process, and even to Sedgewick, who almost got away with one more of the many cheats in his life. I'm surprised it took so long for Hundert to realize that Sedgewick was cheating. He must have seen quite a lot of cheating already, and Sedgewick's behavior was so striking. Sedgewick probably cheated to get the temporary improvement in his grades, too.
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...oops....I'm travelling and was responding the way I remember the story. I don't even remember the third guy, guess I should shut up till I've got the book in front of me!
It's certainly a story that stirs the emotions, isn't it. I wonder why. I expect it goes back to these years before puberty when,... if we were lucky..., teachers were powerful benevolent beings like our parents,... if we were lucky..., ("in loco parentis" as my Latin teacher used to say), and so it's a let down to accept they're "only human". Even in old age when we know better. Amazing .
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PatH.,
The most damage wasn't done to Deepak,
I'm not sure if we can measure damage here, although I agree Martin Blythe does seem to have allowed this to affect his future years. Deepak was the most intelligent student in the class, and knows he would have won regardless, so it's possible this would not have affected him as it did Martin, but he does have to live with knowing his wins were not earned fairly. How does one live with knowing that?
Once Mr. H., gave Sedgewick a question outside of the Outline, and Sedgewick got it wrong, he then posed the question to Deepak. Deepak knew this question was not in the Outline, he also knew that Mr. H., knew that he would answer it correctly. At the reenactment competition once again, Mr. H. poses a question for Deepak to win, knowing Sedgewick would not know it. So Mr. H., has now included Deepak into a moral dilemma, does he answer these questions correctly, knowing it is out of the Outline, or does he not? Once Deepak does answer the questions correctly, he becomes a part of Mr. H.'s cheating.
During these competitions, Deepak has no idea Sedgewick's grades were altered to be leapfrogged to third place, he has no idea Mr. H. is suspecting Sedgewick of cheating, so what must Deepak be thinking, knowing Mr. H., has given him questions out of the Outline? Doe he think Mr. H., is cheating FOR him to win, and for Sedgewick to lose, not once, but twice, decades later?
Dana, Indeed it does stir up emotions. As much as I would like to give Mr. H., a break, I am just so incredibly annoyed with his first day ridiculing Sedgewick at the blackboard. He goes on to become obsessed with this thirteen year old boy, to the point he throws his good judgement, and character out the window. What a sad man he became.
Jonathan, I agree, it is a sad ending. Foolish smile...yes, he was played for a fool. Proud... for some reason, I felt he was proud of Sedgewick becoming a Senator, and he felt he played a part in "molding his character" to help him achieve his successes in life. He certainly didn't have much faith in Sedgewick's parents capabilities.
As someone earlier mentioned, "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive. - Sir Walter Scott (Marmion, 1808)
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Interesting - since I did attend a Benedictine parochial school called, of course, St Benedict's, all of a sudden I started to remember bits from his life and looked them up to be sure - you know how a character is not a mirror image but there are many similarities - well the similarities are there for Mr. H and St. Benedict.
Benedict leaves Rome to find the peace he needs and after a stint in a small village he needs more solitude and lives in a cave for 3 years - could we call the abode of Mr. H. isolated from the nearby village and similar in size to St. Benedict's 10 foot deep Cave.
Then Benedict is befriended by some nearby monks who ask him to be their leader - some are so jealous they attempt to poison him more than once. There is a myth that he was given a loaf of bread by the monks laced with poison and a blackbird swoops in and takes the bread. We have students (Sedgwick may have been their leader but other boys were with him) and there are teachers all attempting to take down Mr. H.
What really startles me is where St. Benedict lives in the 6th century, in the 15 century, a St. Charles Borromeo comes along and sets about reforming the monasteries and religious orders that had fallen into various abuses as a result of secular interference. Isn't it a secular viewpoint that Mr. Woodbridge succumbs to the potential power and gold of the student's parents; and when Charles Ebberly becomes head he initiates reform.
Granted, the Benedictines reformed themselves over 400 years earlier and that is how we have the Cluniac Reforms. However, consistent even after reform, from the days when St. Benedict established his monasteries he included the study of Rhetoric that during his childhood school years was used to seduce people to vice. Benedict saw it could be used to chant and praise. He established the practice that every meal would be accompanied by a reader and each word was considered so that it took time to read and understand each word of the reading. So of course Mr. H had to have his contests and it could be that the famous alumni mentioned (fact or not) were included because of their prowess as speech makers.
And finally, even I remember classroom prayer that copied part of the The Daily Office read by each Benedictine. Benedict's Rule has an entire chapter on how to close read and memorize the psalms. For us each morning we pledged to the flag and read aloud a psalm... the end of psalm 25 seems so appropriate to our Mr. H.
15 My eyes are ever upon the LORD, who frees my feet from the snare.
16 Look upon me, have pity on me, for I am alone and afflicted.
17 Relieve the troubles of my heart; bring me out of my distress.
18 Look upon my affliction and suffering; take away all my sins.
19 See how many are my enemies, see how fiercely they hate me.
20 Preserve my soul and rescue me; do not let me be disgraced, for in you I seek refuge.
21 Let integrity and uprightness preserve me; I wait for you, O LORD.
22 Redeem Israel, O God, from all its distress!
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Wow. I don't really know where to start. However not being timid like Mr. Hunderdt (and yes I think he's timid, witness his response to Hiram Bell's..."my son tells me you asked him a question which was not on the list (page 173 in the paperback)...and he replies "It's a complex situation, sir."
That's timidity. He's afraid to say what really happened.
And the response? "I'm sure it is complex," Senator Bell said, "But I assure you there are situations more complex." Amen to that, brother.
You've raised some good points. I'd like to address them one by one, it may take a while. I'll start with Bellamarie:
Bellamarie, you've made clear and very plain many times how you feel about Mr. Hunderdt and what for you is his egregious sin. We get it? I get it? I don't agree but I get it. Here are some of the things I do respectfully disagree on:
1. Ginny, No, I did not attend classes in the 40's nor did I teach in the 50's, 60's, or 70's, but it does not take workshops or any lesson plans or training, to teach you to be honorable, and to not cheat where students are concerned. I think that is a given when you decide to choose a career in teaching or anything for that matter. The argument of saying we have to look at the era of the story taking place, I feel does not hold weight, because I feel this is indeed happening today. I do not get the feel this story is taking place in the 40's, even though the author has placed it there. But it really would make no difference as far as I am concerned. Cheating in the 40's is no different than cheating in the 21st century. We have a Sedgewick, Mr. H. and Mr. Woodbridge in every era
The CHEATING drumroll here is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about classroom management and atmosphere.
It's true "cheating" or any other sin in the 40's was no different from today. Today we have bad teachers, the news is full of the more egregious ones. Being in the '40's is no excuse for sin. Moral slips happen in every era, and no person is exempt, not even the saints.
We know all that.
What we don't apparently know is today's teacher is suspended, yesterday's was not. If you weren't there, you don't recognize the way classes were conducted. That's why you say I do not get the feel this story is taking place in the 40's. You're entitled to how you feel, but those of us who were there remember something else. So there IS something else you're missing and cannot judge. We also have experiences you can't judge by today's standards, because things WERE different then, like it or not.
How about Pat's quiet remark a while back? It lacked fireworks and has been overlooked. Let's revisit it again.
"Hundert's approach seems to me to be pretty standard for the time. "
Yes I'd say that's true. Nobody is talking about his gross moral turpitude (as some see it), we're talking about how classrooms were administered. The way they were. Let me give you a personal example of a high school in New Jersey and one of the best teachers I ever had. Like Dr. Canin, in my 12 years of public school, I think I had 2 good "teachers." One of them was my Latin teacher. Here's the way the class went down in the '50's.
You stood when the teacher entered the room. We did drills, rapid fire complicated Latin drills, going from one desk to the next in order, should you have missed one of the questions, you then rose and stood next to your seat for the remainder of the exercise. That could take 20 minutes or more. You stood. Because you made a mistake. On Monday of every week, the students lined up against the blackboard. Each student was then assigned a seat in the class in respect to his placement in the class, his numerical scores, from the previous week. Student #1 had the best seat, the one in the first row to the teacher's right. Student #2 had the second and so on, down to the last #38 or whatever. Every Monday.
None of us felt humiliated, oppressed or psychologically ruined. We just wanted a good seat. I remember this one because I had to stand up once but I have forgotten, lost to the past the other rigorous proceedings. We certainly had no roustabouts or disruption. Nobody remembers this teacher except with joy. This was a wonderful teacher. I can hear the screams now of today's parents, parents of children for whom the SAT has had to have the scores adjusted up...is it 200 points, so that a 600 today was the 400 of the 60's.
Flash back to the '40's. Pennsylvania. Miss Thomas. I will name her. Elementary school. The bell rings to go home. Miss Thomas who I hope is safely roasting in Hell, begins the times tables. We sit with our hands folded on the desks. She walks down the rows, again one at a time. If you miss one she takes the ruler she carries (public school) and smacks you on the hands. Smack smack smack. You can hear it coming. Boy did I know my Tables. My father arrives in outrage to the principal. Nothing can be done. The admin stands behind this teacher because she has tenure. My father goes to her. If you strike my child you will deal with me. She does not strike me physically, passes me with the ruler, the hair pulling, but from then on I am the object of ridicule in every area. EVERY area. I've blocked a lot of it out but I do remember the potholders.
Potholders, remember potholders? How you wove those pretty little strips and made a potholder? I did one. It was a coat of many colors. I did it for my mother which is why we were doing them but it did not follow Miss Thomas's pattern. She held it up and mocked it. She hung it on the wall, a sort of Wall of Shame. The class laughed. Children are children. She said, and I will never forget it, pointing a finger at me, you may be smart but you will never be able to do anything with your hands. (She was right, actually, I never have been able to do any kind of handiwork whatsoever).
Back to school goes my enraged father. Nothing can be done, she has tenure. Those are only a couple of incidents. I pass over her throwing a child out the window of a first floor classroom onto the pavement. I pass over what she did to another child who couldn't speak until WE, the small children of her class intervened. At our own peril. And reward. Have none of you heard of the "dunce cap?" Do you think it's fiction?
I pass over because I have managed to put it out of my mind the rest of the outrages this monster perpetuated on the children, all the children, of that class day after day. I don't know what happened to her, if she "retired" early at the end of that year. People like her still exist but the schools no longer support them.Times have changed. In this case for the better.
She had tenure. In the 40's unless (and obviously sometimes in spite of) the behavior was this kind of egregiousness, the admin supported the teachers. Forward to the 60's. How many of us were told, in the early 60's, don't send a behavior problem to the office. Deal with it yourself. If we see a group of behavior problems outside the Vice Principal's office coming from you, we will have to reevaluate your ability to teach in our schools.
So we dealt with it. The disruptive, the "roustabouts." I would mention some of the things I did in my early days, which seem innocuous to me, but I'm sure would raise a hanging committee, but I've, like Mr. Hunderdt, until this story, never felt the need, and I'm too old to dodge stones.
I keep wondering WHY? WHY is he telling this because, contrary I believe to what has been expressed here, he's told nobody of altering those grades.
3. Bellamarie (I'm not picking on you, I'm just trying to address your many points). :) You said: He can blame Ellerby for it, but he was at this school for decades, and Ellerby knew what Mr. H., had done by him confiding in him.
I don't think so. Could you give, please, the citation for this? All I see, and I may have missed something, is this, on the bottom of page 172 in the paperback: "and indeed, when I confided in him about Sedgewick Bell's behavior and Mr. Woodbridge's response he suggested it was my duty to circumvent our headmaster and speak directly to the boy's father."
He wants somebody to know what happened, so he tells Charles Ellerby what Sedgewick did in cheating on the test, not what he, Mr. Hunderdt, did. Until now (unless I have missed something) we're the first people he's told. Why?
I keep saying why? What does he WANT with this story? Why not swallow it along with all the other things one learns to swallow lest one get acid reflux and sleepless nights? This is a fictional character. We can condemn him or put his picture on the wall but I want to figure out WHY he's dong what he's doing.
Mr. Hunderdt, of course "cheated." He began to give B's where a C was warranted (must be an objective test) and I'm struck by the words he uses here: compassion, words of empathy, words of encouragement. He focused on the wrong child, perhaps but maybe his intentions WERE good. Of course we know what the road to Hell is paved with (hopefully parts of Miss Thomas, but I digress). hahahaha
As far as workshops. In the states in which I taught at least 15 hours of education courses, methods courses, and a semester of practice teaching were necessary for a state teaching certificate. None of these courses ever mentioned discipline. Not one.
Pat is right when she says, "but there wasn't the emphasis there is now on figuring out a student's problems and helping him overcome them, and I don't think they had much training in the matter to help them."
We were teaching, or trying to, the subject.
Then the 60's arrived. "I teach the child, not the subject" was proudly proclaimed. That's nice. Transformational Grammar (not to mention the "New Math," was adopted (and later thrown away) over almost all of the nation. The result of the ill conceived and ludicrous Transformational Grammar approach (if you don't remember it, it was based on the hip hop patterns of street talk) is an entire generation of students who would not know an Indirect Object or an Adverbial Objective from a hole in the ground. And they do feel the lack, go figure. This has caused the necessity for a slew of books with titles like "English Grammar for the Beginning Latin student." Real damage was done, but HEY!
THEN the thinking began to be exactly what Hiram Bell asked Mr. Hunderdt: "What's the good of what you're teaching them boys?"
Will it get them a job? Will it allow for employment? And this has become the new mantra. Have you noticed what has happened to the Vocational Schools of the past? Remember them? The students who did not fare well academically were put on the Vocational track and bussed to learn bricklaying? Car repair? They still exist but are not called Vocational schools. I'm not sure education has come as far as we would like to think in the US. I realize this is a hornet's nest.
Sorry this is so long. I do wish I could write succinctly. Can I blame it on Miss Thomas? hahahaa
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I intended the question on what would YOU have done had you been in Mr. Hunderdt's shoes when he thought he saw Sedgewick Bell cheating the first time (I agree with Pat about the second time, so reminiscent of Quiz Show and Charles Van Doren) but the first time as a litmus test. A kind of proof that MAYBE Mr. Hunderdt's actions were not as egregious as we thought.
Look at the few answers we got. Thank you for them. It's a VERY hard question, isn't it?
Bellamarie: I would not have created the entire situation in the first place. But, since Mr. H., indeed created it, and now has to deal with Sedgewick cheating, I would not have asked a question outside of the outline. I would have let the contest proceed to the end.
Nancy:
So what would I do? I really cannot say what I would do in the heat of the moment. But I know I will be tested, because I have in the past. Sometimes I make the difficult choice to take a moral stand, but not always. What I will do in the future will be influenced not do much by when I have made the right choice, but how I have felt later, having not done so.
Dana: What would I have done when Sedgewick cheated? Would I have cheated the guy who SHOULD have won out of his prize...I sure hope I would not have done that. Who knows, but that did upset me
Those are all good answers and honest ones, I think. It's easier to talk about what somebody else did in a book than to say what we would actually personally have done.
And Mr. Hunderdt only suspects. He says "Yet at the moment I felt an inexplicable pity for the boy. Was it simply the humiliation we had both suffered at the hands of his father? I peered through my glasses at the stage and knew at once that he had attached the 'Outline of Ancient Roman History' to the inside of his toga."
He knew at once but it's still only supposition. Suppose he had spoken up. What did he actually expect the headmaster to do? How would they explain that to the parents? What IF he had been wrong?
I would probably have stopped the contest. Not out of any kind of self righteousness or shining moral anything but because, as my husband says, I am the oldest living flower child and have never had the needs that Mr. Hunderdt has, poor man. "The devil drives when the needs must?" I really have done about a 360 degree turn on him from when we started, thanks to this discussion.
And it's only fear that kept him silent. Timidity. He's afraid.I see Nancy talking about courage. He'll lose his entire life and everything that means anything to him.
His proudest day at St. Benedicts? When he convinced the board that classics and history were important and he swallowed his fear and timidity and stood up and Charles Ellerby was elected to teach.
We need to look at Charles J (for Judas) Ellerby soon. Dante didn't place Cassius, Brutus and Judas in his lower rung of Hell for no reason. That's why I asked about who is worse?
We've had one answer to that one, so I'll ask again, who, in your opinion is worse: Charles Ellerby, William Hunderdt, Mr. Woodbridge or Sedgewick Bell? Why do you think so?
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It's TERRIBLE to have to make up one day's postings, because I don't know how to do it except to post!
Barbara's post reminds me that even the saints, some of them, at one time did wrong. That isn't what she SAID, but it made me think of that. I'm not up on all my saints, but I remember some of them clearly.
Is this story of Mr. Hunderdt, which some of you have referred to as his "confession," his attempt at repentance? Is the fact he's trying to justify it somewhat (the endless string of empathetic and sympathetic words like "compassion," are really striking when you reread it) does that confer pardon? Who is he asking for it? Who is supposed to give it? Is this more Frank Sinatra: "the record shows...I did it my way?"
Does it make a moral difference if you intended well in your own mind and then did wrong?
I was struck in reading it the first time that I was glad I didn't have to judge him, but I feel no such scruples about Charles Ellerby. Or should I? Let's look at him next week, along with the style of the piece and the themes, lots to talk about.
What about the gun? Why did he take it? We have one comment on that. Why did Mr. Hunderdt throw it away?
What's the big deal about the gun? What could it possibly mean to anybody?
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Wow, Ginny, your school experience was worse than mine. Physical punishment was not used, and I was lucky enough not to get any teachers as bad as Miss Thomas. I did have some poor teachers, but also plenty of good ones. But even my beloved Mrs. Lane (the geometry teacher) didn't make you stand up for a whole class period. She did, however, on days when she was particularly fed up, make students go over to the window, open it, and stick their head out to get some fresh air to clear their heads. There was seldom just one, so misery had company.
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Bellamarie, you're right, I can't really know which boy was hurt most by the cheating. We know it rankled with Martin Blythe for years, but we can only guess about Deepak.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online: July 7-31
The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/palacethief/Palacethief2.jpg)
" I tell this story not for my own honor, for there is little of that here, and not as a warning, for a man of my calling learns quickly that all warnings are in vain..."
"For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught"....("My Way" sung by Frank Sinatra)
"This is a story without surprises..." (Mr. Hundert).
| Topic #2: The Themes in The Palace Thief |
Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
Let's look at themes in this story this week. In order to do this we'll first call on you to identify any themes you see running through the book.
-To start out, do you agree or disagree with the author about the theme he sees in the book? Why or why not?
-What are some themes you have noted in the book? We'll put ALL of them up here so we can all discuss them.
----betrayal (ginny)
----nature vs. nurture (Frybabe)
----character and morals
----isolation (Halcyon)
----loss of innocence (Halcyon)
----power (Halcyon)
----retirement and old age (Topic du Jour 7/14
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-Other questions raised by our readers:
----WAS Mr.Hunderdt a good teacher, do you think? Why or why not? (Jonathan)
----Was there a character you took an instant dislike to? Who and why? (Pat)
----What is the climax of the book? Why?
----Which of the children was most injured my Mr Hundert's manipulating the grades? (BellaMarie)
-Once we get a list of the themes we can discuss which one we think is the most powerful in the story, what the real purpose of the story IS, and all the questions you have raised as well.
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Interesting Links:
Annotations for The Palace Thief from Chulalongkorn University (http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~tpuckpan/Canin,%20Ethan-thepalacethief.html) *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.
Discussion Leader: Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
Sorry to be so late. I just finished this story. Have very much enjoyed reading all the posts in this discussion.
This story was one of the most interesting and yet the saddest I've read in a long while.
At the beginning of Hundert's narrative, he says "That school was my life." And it was so, as he had no family of his own, only his "boys" at their reunion at the end of the story at Sedgewick Bell's fabulous estate. No one deserved all this largess more than Bell, eh? He certainly was the "palace thief." Ironic that Bell became his own father.
As the story began it was interesting to note that all these students at St. Benedict's were there because of the success of their fathers and they were the fortunate elite who were expected to later rule in this country, either in large corporations, or universities, or as legislative members of Congress. Of course there were no young women at that time, nor any poor students. Hopefully, some of that money that the headmaster craved went for scholarships.
As for the merits of their learning Roman history, I think it merely helped them realize what their goal in life was meant to be, that of becoming members of the Emperor's Club.
Marj
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Wow, one full day without posting and I'm lost here in this shuffle of characters and "character." I've just unpacked and have book in hand. I reread some notes which I took when I first read this novella and the first says, "Man is insignificant and his efforts are in vain, compared to the forces of time and nature." I believe that that passage was in regards to the opening sonnet of Ozymandias. Does this fact describe him? Did he become a shattered, ruined statue, himself; crumbling over the passage of time, much like the plaque on his wall communicated?
I am hung up on this and fear I am beginning to feel sorry for the guy. Did he see himself as the vain King Ramesses II? "Look upon my works, ye Mighty and despair!" In the first paragraph he (the narrator) admits that all warnings are in vain.
I feel your pain Ginny with your Miss Thomas. My nemesis (and I was hers as well) was a Sister Mary Thomas, in nursing school. She told me that she would basically mold me into what she wanted but I won't begin to elaborate on her treatment of me because you wouldn't believe that sisters of "mercy" could have gotten away with these atrocious things. This was in the early 60's, not even the 40's- classroom management and atmosphere, she did not care about, one bit.
Perchance that is why I dislike Mr. H. It hadn't resonated with me why I might bear malice toward him to such a degree. I saw his actions of chastising a young student (I got that too) and his behavior as objectionable for a teacher and mentor. This has unsettled me and in my agitation I have evaluated this behavior; not condone it, but understand it. Perhaps it was Barb's reference to St. Benedict that brought these long buried memories to the fore front. Relieve the troubles of my heart; bring me out of my distress.
This was many years ago and I have softened my heart. In truth, she did mold me, in a way.
She taught me to speak up when I knew I was being falsely accused.
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I hope that I haven't missed a reference to this before but the senator (bully) confronted Mr. H.on the telephone that one of the questions was not on the list that his son had to know and the kid felt that was unfair.
"No sooner had I resolved to confront the senator than it became perfectly clear to me that I lacked the character to do so."
Ginny, I agree that the word timid fits this situation. He was afraid, apprehensive that he would be browbeaten by the senator. He's submissive and wished to avoid a confrontation. I almost felt pity for the guy and empathy that he felt so unsure of his position.
What did the senator mean when he said "my son has told me a great deal about you, Mr. Hundrert. If I were you, I'd remember that." What did he have to fear from the senator, his position at the school?
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Alf
What did he have to fear from the senator, his position at the school?
Given the headmaster's reaction when Hundert whispered to him that Sedgewick was cheating ("Ignore it, Hundert, or look for another job.") I would say that's definitely what he had to fear. Goodness knows what Sedgewick told his father; it might not even be true, but that wouldn't matter. The headmaster wouldn't go against the rich, influential senator.
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Wow I love the connection with Bell as the Palace Thief - right before our eyes and it took you Marj to bring it to our attention.
Interesting isn't it Alf how we hold on to early lifetime wounds often hidden from ourselves till something pops the memory. Glad you found further understanding - really glad - I guess I am recognizing how I still react to long ago hurts. Ah so, we all do it don't we.
Ha just noticed on the cover of - is it the movie or the book - anyhow they are playing baseball - how appropriate - strike one and you have another chance - strike two and your still in the game - only after three strikes are you out of the game. Sounds like Ginny, you had many a teacher who pushed the limit on the three strike mentality and stole a few bases while they were at it.
I also remember the little things - after the war when penny loafers were the newest fashion statement and some of the boys, when they got out of their knickers in 7th grade were dressing with penny loafers while the girls were into saddle shoes - but if the boys ever arrived in school with pennies in their loafers they had to remove the coins and put them in the box for the starving Chinese Babies along with any change in their pockets. Can you imagine today something so benign being called out by a teacher - this was not short short skirts or pants worn below what seems decent - this was pennies in shoes - I giggle at the difference.
Another thought - if this is taking place in the 40s then we have WWII either raging or immediately over and the moral issues of the day were so raw few could even talk about them. No one really talked about the Nuremberg Trials - we read about them but no chatter in the grocery like during the war each inch of ground was discussed and re-fought over the onions and apples. After the war and during the trials if you were of German decent ouch ouch ouch -
During and after the war teaching or understanding morality was so confusing... it was some years later we started to see and read the seedy side of war - the graft, the total insanity of trying to make sense of a war that tried to hang onto rules in the middle of chaos much as the book Catch 22 and even realizing what the Dresden bombing did to millions of German citizens reading Slaughter House 5 and then the way corruption was a joke when we saw Kelly's Heroes.
The only reference I can remember to the war is When Mr. H is thinking how a soldier does not blame a captain when Mr. Woolbridge does nothing to support him during the contest as he became aware Sedgwick was cheating and something had to be done. You know the unspoken is how often in the heat of battle the mismanaged command by a captain is the cause of death for the soldiers fighting with their lives.
That gun...??!!?? I have been trying to figure it out - I know currently many folks see a gun as an unnecessary weapon and question it as a protective devise and yet, I am so glad that during the summer season at Girl Scout camp some years back the director, Wanda had a rifle and another, the gal that was the waterfront director had her repeater - in the middle of the night this guy is walking among the tents and a small group of us held him at gun point while the Sheriff was on his way - took 45 minutes and for the last 20 or more you could here the wail of his siren as he drove through the night.
I am also remembering a friend whose mother lives next to the Bush ranch outside of Crawford and all these newspaper reporters show up from all over the world - as they started to encroach on her property she used her rifle and shot on the ground at the edge of her property. Again, no sheriff was going to come out even if she called so you have to take care of things. Most of the International reporters were outraged and said so in their piece printed in the Waco news that only prompted a flood of letters from local ranchers about property rights and property protection.
And then, how often a rabid animal come along and someone has to shoot it before it bites a child or even another animal. Even Atticus Finch shoots a rabid dog.
And so I can see a gun representing both aggression and protection - mistakes are made but then the old saw but it is true - the mistake is who pulls the trigger and why.
I wonder if that is the symbol of the gun - close to a war folks would know that mistakes were made by every soldier - not every bullet hit its target - that target may have then had time to kill your buddy but you keep going and do the job as best you can. Folks who make a mistake are not asked or allowed to leave a war - you must go on and everyone knows that there is no perfect soldier.
I wonder if that is the symbol of the gun - Hyram Bell is saying - here, you are a part of this now and when Mr. Hundert throws away the gun he is saying, no more - being part of this requires too much from me and in order to walk to the tune of my own drum I do not need or want to be a part of this. 'This' that had me in its grip so that I loose not only my job, but my home and association with the traditions, politicking, work and play at St. Benedicts all the time playing the war game of status and money trumping cheating.
The gun is an old wooden handled gun seems like the age and wooden handle has meaning that I have not been able to come up with a metaphor. It has to be in the story for a reason - no author puts anything in especially a short story without a specific reason - can't figure this one maybe someone else will have a good explanation.
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Goodness, this story brings out lot of memories. Maybe I'm timid because nobody tried to mold my character. ;)
The character I took an instant dislike to was Sedgewick Bell. Nancy nailed his character neatly with a few words. I don't like his methods, but I see why Hundert used the tactics he did. Hundert spotted instantly that the boy was a world-class bully and manipulator, almost too much to handle, and knew he had to control him or the class would be chaos. Later Hundert starts to feel sorry for the boy, and it's ironic that that leads to his downfall.
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Barb, I was writing while you were posting. I couldn't figure out why have the gun in the story. Senator Bell forced Hundert to take it; Hundert didn't seem to want it, and just shoved it in a drawer and forgot it. I see why he had to get rid of it, though. Teachers were probably not supposed to have guns, and it would be a big black mark against him.
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I can't remember a discussion with such a spirited beginning. The pot has been well and truly stirred. I envy the experience of the teachers among us.
The bottom line for me is that Mr Hundert was a good teacher. The reunion proves that. They all came. Sedgewick Bell ( a bit of a teacher's pet and his most successful student...'that's my boy') must have felt confident that they would. Corporate chairman, senator...president...well not if Mr Hundert could prevent it. Which is what he must have done by passing on to the tabloids the behavior of the schoolboy. It would make anyone cynical to realize it all come down to fundraising. And Mr Hundert stooped to that too. After all, it was all done for St Benedict's.
I wsh I could have seen his lesson plan for Ozymandias. What lesson could he have seen in it for the boys. For Mr Bell, Hundert was a 'history buff'. That was painful for me. And the gun...I have a real problem with that.
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Here is a tid bit - a recollection of what was the typical concerns in a school during the 40s and a photo of a station wagon so typical of the cars finally being built again after the war.
http://www.hawken.edu/Page/About/History/1940s
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Yes, Jonathan it is difficult however, I wonder if some of our difficulty is we have lived through the horror of school shootings which in the 40s was not an issue.
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Hah just thought - I wonder - in the 40s the ONLY time we hear of gun violence is of course the war but organized crime - the word Mafia was not banded around but organized crime figures were a newspaper feature - is the Senator suggesting that it is all a game of power and each group has its own secret code and here, you are part of our code like it or not since you are teaching my son and we are a group that does not use a gun but we can hold up folks in their pocket book and their morality - we use our status and wealth as our hold up gun.
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Actually, the story may have taken place after the Korean War which occurred in the early 1950s. I seem to remember that one of the students, now a man, who arrived at Bell's estate for the reunion, had lost part of his leg in the Korean War.
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The reunion was then, but it's stated that Bell first came to the school as a student in 1945.
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Welcome, Marj! What a joy to see you here! Great points as well! The fact that the student body appeared to be from the privileged class is a good one, thank you for mentioning it. Quite a contrast to the last scenes with the miners. Lots of contrasts in this book. LOTS of conflicts.
I agree with you about the most interesting, and I think you are on record as not particularly liking short stories (tho this is not strictly speaking, a short story), so I am really thrilled to see you here.
So many of you think it's sad at the end. Why? By what standards? Yet Mr. Hunderdt says the old man holding Sedgewick Bell's hand "who had on his face the remnants of a proud and foolish smile."
What does he have to be proud of at the end, do you all think?
On the meaning of the title, The Palace Thief, clever you but hold that thought. I'd like to discuss who or what the Palace Thief was and what the Palace was at the very last of our discussion. THAT topic alone should be a hum dinger!
Welcome!!
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Pat, :) make students go over to the window, open it, and stick their head out to get some fresh air to clear their heads
It's all in how it's done. The atmosphere in my Latin class was great fun. You stood, you laughed, but you didn't want to stand again. I imagine, and could be wrong, you put your head out the window to get some fresh air, more than one of you and that's fun but the lesson is there too.
Corporal punishment was still around in the early '60's where I taught. The "paddle" was firmly in place in the Principal's office. Imagine. I recall actually when the parents had to give permission for this type of discipline, when that was put in effect.
ALF, bless your heart with Sister Mary Thomas!! My gosh. It's a miracle any of us survived our "teachers." I am not sure if all the credit needs to go to her for your standing up for yourself. I think maybe you should have the pat on the back there. :) Wonderful points, too. It's amazing how many times that word character appears, including the last paragraph. "A man's character is his character." I wonder what he meant by THAT one?
If we made a list of every time that word is used in the book and how it's used I bet we'd be surprised.But you are right, he says he has not the character. I wonder what he means by that word.
Barbara, that was a VERY interesting post on the effect that WWII would have had, on the streets and in the classrooms. And a very interesting theory of "what about the gun?" Why he might have thrown it away. I have no idea, myself.
I thought maybe because he was shy and overwhelmed (twice) by this bluster of a man and his office that he took it rather than stand up for himself, after all, it was a gift. But the throwing AWAY of it? But I like what you said there. Breaking the spell of the Bells. That's one plot twist that made no sense to me. I suppose we could write the author and ask, but you all are very astute readers, I thought we could see what you think. I like that.
Thank you also for that link, it seems during wartime teachers were at a premium, and not easily replaced. I had to smile at the one guy having to take on bus duty, etc. Anybody who taught for any length of time in a public school ended up doing a lot of things he would never have dreamed of. I taught GYM one semester, believe it or not. GYM!
Jonathan, I agree this is spirited and a pot well stirred. We're lucky for our thoughtful participants here who are producing such a wonderful discussion. And here you go:
The bottom line for me is that Mr Hundert was a good teacher
Pat also agreed with this assessment earlier, saying he probably was very effective. You cite all the boys came to the reunion.
What do the rest of you think? WAS Mr.Hunderdt a good teacher, do you think? By what standards? Would the boys have come IF they disliked Mr. Hunderdt? Why or why not?
An excellent question. EVEN tho I have changed the focus of the discussion for next week, we can continue to discuss anything we'd like. And quite frankly your questions and points are better than my own.
I have problems with the gun, too. Why was the "history buff" that Mr. Bell considered Mr. Hundert painful to you?
Jonathan!! REALLY? You don't think this, do you? Which is what he must have done by passing on to the tabloids the behavior of the schoolboy. What makes you say this?
Talk about a boiling pot!
And Pat raised another one, the person in the book she took an instant dislike to. She says for her it's Sedgewick Bell. Who is it for you?
So between you all you've opened more topics than Pandora. I'm half ashamed to put up the new items, but we can still keep on discussing the old too. What fun!
Here, copied from the heading, are the topics for next week in addition to the ones raised by our readers summarized in this post:
| Topic #2: Themes in the Book |
| "Themes" |
Ethan Canin: "The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
Let's look at themes in this story this week. In order to do this we'll call on you to identify any themes you see running through the book.
-To start out, do you agree or disagree with the author about the theme he sees in the book? Why or why not?
-What are some themes you have noted in the book? We'll put them up here so we can all discuss them.
----betrayal (ginny)
----?
----?
-Other questions raised by our readers:
----WAS Mr.Hunderdt a good teacher, do you think? Why or why not? (Jonathan)
----Was there a character you took an instant dislike to? Who and why? (Pat)
-Once we get a list of the themes we can discuss which one we think is the most powerful in the story, what the real purpose of the story IS, and all the questions you have raised as well.
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hahaha, I can't let this one pass: Maybe I'm timid because nobody tried to mold my character hahaha
Maybe they did, too much, and that's the reason? hahahaaa I'm timid, too. When you find out why, pass it on. :)
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My thoughts about the gun were two half-formed ideas. First, that the gun was a bribe (but for what exactly?) and the second was that Bell was just passing along something he really didn't want to the first person he thought might appreciate it more (not as likely). Perhaps it was a combination to the two. As Barb said, he got rid of it as he divested himself of the Bell spell. Although it was a mostly forgotten item in his bottom drawer, to Hundert it was a symbol of his failure and, possibly, incriminating evidence of a bribe.
To Jonathan's speculation that it was Hundert that passed on damaging information to the tabloids, I must disagree. Didn't Hundert, in a remark at the beginning (or end), that someone unjustly gave the tabloids ammunition that kept Sedgewick Bell from becoming President? (Sorry, I can't double check that because I took the book back to the library yesterday.) That particular statement sounded to me like he was a bit disappointed that Bell didn't win the presidency. Regardless of how he thought of Bell personally, he seems always to be proud of the stations in life that former students of St. Benedict's (and by extension, himself) ultimately attained.
Could "nature vs. nurture" be a theme here? S. Bell's nature (personality/character traits, intellectual interests/abilities) vs. Mr. Hundert who was trying to nurture (mold) Bell's character and encourage a greater interest and capacity to learn.
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It's on the first page of the story:
"I taught a boy who, if not for the vengeful recriminations of the tabloids, would today have been president of the United States."
The reporters were ticked off at Bell, but it doesn't say why, just or unjust.
The gun: Ellerby asked Hundert if he had a gun, and Hundert answered no. Once this happened, Hundert had to get rid of it. Ellerby was obviously digging for information to discredit Hundert; it would be damaging to be in possession of a gun, and even more damaging to have lied about it. If you want to be paranoid, you could assume that Ellerby was going to accuse Hundert of having stolen the gun.
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Ah, okay. I remembered but not quite rightly. Yes, vengeful not unjustly. I still got the impression that he was disappointed that Bell didn't get the job.
I had forgotten about Ellerby asking about a gun. Not "the" gun, "a" gun. Why would he have asked? Had Hundert, years ago, mentioned the "gift" to him? Didn't sound like it. Had Ellerby been snooping in Hundert's desk unbeknownst to him?
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Someone wondered what school was featured on the cover art. It is The Emma Willard School in Troy, NY. It was also a location used in The Scent of a Woman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Willard_School
http://www.emmawillard.org/
Best I can tell it is still a female only school. Lots of notable alumni.
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I do not see Mr. H., as a timid man, his actions in fact seem pretty bold to me. If anything the times that have been pointed out about him being timid, are times he did not know how to respond to unexpected situations, he knew he had cheated himself, and would have to risk being caught if he pursued things any further. I guess we all who see it differently, will have to respectfully, agree to disagree.
Frybabe, I agree, I got the impression Mr. H., was disappointed Bell did not win also. I really like your theme of nature vs nurture, seems very fitting.
I've been on vacation and have been so busy, I have not been able to catch up on most of the posts the past few days. Hopefully this week will settle down for me. But for today I am off again.....
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Barb says I was taken with your sentence Nancy - "The reason why we are let down by Mr. Hunderdt is because of his position and commitment as a teacher."
To a student the dynamics in the classroom is, the teacher is the power force and so the word 'teacher' could be replaced by any who hold a power position and who have that position not by an equal process of elevating the most successful as in the winning team or even team member but the process is by appointment based on status, wealth, leadership skills etc. - Policeman, Senator, Bishops, Court Judges, and to a child their parents - unfortunately in the 1940s and 50s the concept of team did not include equal team like status between husband and wife and for some today that is still true. And so, like father like son was an easy leap for boys to feel a sense of entitlement.
Taking Barb's logic one step further I think the headmaster was the worst character. His position held the most power. Mr. H was a new teacher and looked to the headmaster for guidance.
What would I have done in Mr. H's position. I would like to think that I would have taken the high road and outed Sedgwick but I know I wouldn't have, especially if, as Mr. H claims, that the school was his life and teaching the classics his calling. To me a calling is more than a job. It is the essence of who you are. How can you easily give up who you are? Mr. H's reaction was brilliant, he managed to put Sedgewick in his place and obey the headmaster! The journey through life isn't always black and white.
Since Ginny posted about school days in the 1940's and 1950's I have been thinking about my own elementary school experience. The standards and methods were very different. Our principal, a stout grey haired woman did indeed have a paddle and she used it. Where did they ever get those paddles; they looked like long handled cutting boards. I was put in the corner and sent out into the hall many times. My favorite punishment was to be sent to the basement into the boiler room to sit with the janitor. The boiler room was warm and cozy and the janitor always gave me candy. Children who came from the "wrong side of the tracks" or whose families were on "welfare" were treated differently. In fifth grade my grandmother came to my classroom and the boy seated next to me leaned over and said "That lady is a real witch. She comes to our house all the time." My grandmother was the "welfare lady". And believe me she had no empathy for struggling families. My husband recently found a report card from his elementary school days and one of the grading categories was "Hopeless Failure". Can you imagine being categorized as a "Hopeless Failure" in elementary school? I do think it's important to consider the times and not to judge by today's standards.
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"Hopeless Failure" oh oh oh - but you know I was thinking - with all our current concern for the feelings and the self-esteem of kids has it really made a difference? Yes, at graduations there are more medals awarded and more scholarships than were ever heard of when we were all attending school but over all there seems to me to be more who will go to collage but fewer who will be included in a well paid trade, who could hold their head up with pride because they were going into a respected trade - those are the kids that if they can make it to at least a 2 year collage have a chance - there are no longer droves of kids who will take over the family farm or ranch - what are these kids doing - the ones on the bottom tier had been enlisting - I think they still do but not in great numbers since the wounded came back from Iraq and even those who enlist, many are first going to collage for a bit.
They sure know their technology but I do not think they are learning that in the classroom - so what has all this change accomplished I wonder in comparison to a time when it was considered a new approach to learn history wearing a homemade toga. I see their future is different from the future we had before us however, I am not sure they are any more prepared for that future than we were.
That gun sure has us all perplexed because yes, he only seemed to make an effort to get rid of it after he was questioned by Charles Ebberly - The fact that he had a gun to me is no surprise - this is when we were practicing for bombs that were going to descend by hiding either under our desks or in some enclosed space, for us a huge storage room with no windows. And except for giving guns and field glasses to the armed services - most of the guns were taken apart for the metal and field glasses were used - we forget how little was available and everyone pitched in - during the beginning of the war women and kids were still rolling bandages - we collected tin cans and saved rubber bands and the inside silver foil paper from a cigarette package and of course tons of paper - every household had a box for paper and one for flattened tin cans - there were air raid brigades that carried old WWI gas masks and so having a gun was not unusual however, having a pistol meant you were not as patriotic.
Having or not having a gun in a private school - not sure what the expectation was in the 1940s during and after the war but clearly Charles Ebberly was attempting to discredit Mr. H. anyway he could. For me the question is what was the significance of Hyram Bell giving Mr. H. the gun in the first place - it was not described as a modern pistol - it seemed to be more an antique as if passing on some meaning attached to the gun.
One aspect is a gun does represent power - and this one was not the newest utilitarian gun - I wonder if the gun is the modern version of the sword that was used to dub a knight and was a symbol of sovereignty also attributed to death when the sword was in the hands of certain saints - like Paul, James the Greater, Thomas Beckett, Catherine. Who would have thought we needed an annotated version of a story written about 1945.
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Good. It's raining. That means more posts. Longer posts. The memories we all have. And certainly, Bellamarie, only by disagreeing can we begin to understand Mr Hundert's character, which he considered his fate. Got the idea from Heraclitus, he says.
From Barb: 'For me the question is what was the significance of Hyram Bell giving Mr. H. the gun in the first place.'
It was after refusing a cigar that he was given the gun. The senator probably thought the 'history buff' teacher would appreciate the gun taken straight out of American history and could be used in the classroom as a teaching tool. For Mr Hundert, having it and discarding it eventually, become a matter of crossing a Rubicon!!?.
And thanks, Barb, for bringing up the story of Benedict, the Saint, after whom the school was named. And now it gets really complicated. Mr Hundert felt Sedgewick had betrayed St Benedict's like Judas betrayed his Lord, when he rewrote history and turned St Benedict's into Richmond High, for a few votes, or pieces of silver.
Bellamarie persuaded me that the student who lost out on becoming president was in fact Sedgewick, and not one of the other eighteen senators' sons he had taught. The betrayal of St Benedict's was just too much for him. After which, Mr Hundert's agony.
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Well the family is almost dispersed, and the torrent of rain has stopped, and now I can get back in to the best reading there is. How I am enjoying this discussion!!
You all are a lot more astute than I am on the subject of the gun. I liked this, Frybabe: My thoughts about the gun were two half-formed ideas. First, that the gun was a bribe (but for what exactly?) and the second was that Bell was just passing along something he really didn't want to the first person he thought might appreciate it more (not as likely).
That first one made me think that possibly it was sort of an understated bribe. If I give you something, you are then indebted to me, perhaps socially, perhaps personally. Maybe he DID think that Mr. Hunderdt as the "history buff" would enjoy the history in it. How interesting to me it is that when Mr. H looks at it at the end, he sees it rusty, ill proportioned and blunt.
I liked this, too: Regardless of how he thought of Bell personally, he seems always to be proud of the stations in life that former students of St. Benedict's (and by extension, himself) ultimately attained.
Thank you also for the link to the Emma Willard School. That's a perfect thing for the cover. I like the motto, too: Gaudet Patientia Duris
Patience Rejoices in Adversity. They need an s on that "Adversity," don't they?
Thank you for nature versus nurture, I'll put it with the themes in the heading.
Pat, good point: If you want to be paranoid, you could assume that Ellerby was going to accuse Hundert of having stolen the gun. Or more. He might say, since he seemed strangely breathless, that he'd been contacted by one of the Bells. If the younger, he might have said Mr. Hunderdt had threatened him, (because he knew he had the gun) if the older, who knows what might have been said? The tabloids...isn't that interesting?
It seems to say that Sedgewick Bell got his own sometime, just to let US know he didn't get away with his machinations.
Bellamarie, thank you for that opinion about why Mr. Hunderdt did not speak up in situations he found intimidating. As Jonathan says, it does help to hear all sides--gives a broader view.
Halcyon, you scamp! I will forever see you sitting in the boiler room with the janitor hahaha. Loved that story. I think the janitors are the unsung heroes of many schools, wasn't there something the other day about a janitor who had provided clothes and shoes and a lot more for years and years of his school?
Seriously, I thought when I started to read, you, too? "Hopeless Failure". I really can't conceive of that being on any kind of scale that a child was in danger of being marked. What a thing education used to be, not all of it, just some of it. Truly it's a wonder we survived it. AWFUL remark about your grandmother, can't children really be beasts!
Barbara, THERE Is a question about what has all this done for the children of today? Everybody gets a trophy for turning out, everybody on the team. I want to hope they are all better people at the end of their lives, but time will have to tell.
Oh I like your theory here, Jonathan, why didn't I think of this? It was after refusing a cigar that he was given the gun. The senator probably thought the 'history buff' teacher would appreciate the gun taken straight out of American history and could be used in the classroom as a teaching tool.
Oh of COURSE! He probably thought Mr Hunderdt would look it up and get the history of it and bring it out to show the classes the same way Caesar's rocks from his landing place in Britain and pieces of Vesuvius appear in my face to face classes. (And in photos in the online ones). Of course the era is wrong, but perhaps the non history buff Mr. Bell did not know or care about that.
Jonathan you also have picked up on the betrayal theme. The betrayal of St Benedict's was just too much for him. Yes, it was and Charles Ellerby must have known what it would do to Mr. Hundert.
Mr. Hundert had to summon his courage to tell the board why classics were important. He did, he recalled his former speeches and list and he carried the day. This, he said, was the thing he was most proud of, and incidentally he got the traitor Ellerby a job. He then befriended him. He regarded Charles Ellerby as the epitome of character. He tries in times of stress, to think of what Charles would do in the same situation.
Of the four people listed, Sedgewick Bell, Headmaster Woodbridge, William Hundert, and Charles Ellerby, there is only one in the special category of the worst for me, and it's Charles Ellerby.
Why? Because like all traitors he was sly and sneaky, he plotted and schemed to take down the very person who had given him a chance. Does this not remind any of you of anybody else or are there so many of these instances in history that we have gone numb. I am not thinking of Judas tho certainly he is one, but I'm thinking instead of the constant references in the text to Julius Caesar. I stopped marking my text at #5, but Mr. Hundert constantly presents himself in relation to Caesar by his remarks and even by the way he writes to us. I was immediately struck by it, and I want to come back to it, and just to be sure we don't MISS it, the contest is named Mr. Julius Caesar. I mean really. Talk about hints.
I want to develop this further but it's really striking when you see the references. What does it mean? I'm not sure. It can't be coincidence, there are too many of them, but Mr. Hundert is no Caesar, though they were both betrayed at the end, and the world of St. Benedict's is not a battle ground. Or is it? I need to keep thinking about this.
Should he have gone to that last contest? Would YOU have gone? What do you think inspired him to go?
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See what you think about this?
I was looking for a new quiz in the July 6-13 New Yorker Magazine and it's not online yet but I found this and was interested in reading it: it's called Why Smart People are Stupid.
I keep wondering why Mr. Hunderdt seems so off on his judgments of others. He's seeing only hope and good in Sedgewick, so he encourages him. He's intimidated by Hiram Bell's "power," and fails to say what he wants to say. Twice.
He is dead wrong about Charles Ellerby and his supposedly sterling character.
How can a man who knows history and is smart, be so dumb?
The article seems to have some prescient answers, based on studies:
Here are some excerpts:
Although we assume that intelligence is a buffer against bias—that’s why those with higher S.A.T. scores think they are less prone to these universal thinking mistakes—it can actually be a subtle curse.
Perhaps our most dangerous bias is that we naturally assume that everyone else is more susceptible to thinking errors, a tendency known as the “bias blind spot.” This “meta-bias” is rooted in our ability to spot systematic mistakes in the decisions of others—we excel at noticing the flaws of friends—and inability to spot those same mistakes in ourselves.
Although the bias blind spot itself isn’t a new concept, West’s latest paper demonstrates that it applies to every single bias under consideration, from anchoring to so-called “framing effects.” In each instance, we readily forgive our own minds but look harshly upon the minds of other people.
And here’s the upsetting punch line: intelligence seems to make things worse.
One provocative hypothesis is that the bias blind spot arises because of a mismatch between how we evaluate others and how we evaluate ourselves. When considering the irrational choices of a stranger, for instance, we are forced to rely on behavioral information; we see their biases from the outside, which allows us to glimpse their systematic thinking errors. However, when assessing our own bad choices, we tend to engage in elaborate introspection. We scrutinize our motivations and search for relevant reasons; we lament our mistakes to therapists and ruminate on the beliefs that led us astray.
Doesn't that sound familiar?
The problem with this introspective approach is that the driving forces behind biases—the root causes of our irrationality—are largely unconscious, which means they remain invisible to self-analysis and impermeable to intelligence. In fact, introspection can actually compound the error, blinding us to those primal processes responsible for many of our everyday failings. We spin eloquent stories, but these stories miss the point. The more we attempt to know ourselves, the less we actually understand.
(From: http://www.newyorker.com/tech/frontal-cortex/why-smart-people-are-stupid)
This, I thought, was the very epitome of the last scene in the book. How do you explain Mr. Hundert there when he says, "Still, I wanted desperately for him to ask me something more, and perhaps this was why I kept refilling his glass. I wanted him to ask, "how is it to be alone, sir, at this age?' or perhaps to say, 'You have made a difference in my life, Mr. Hundert.'"
What did you make of this scene?
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My thoughts about the gun were two half-formed ideas. First, that the gun was a bribe (but for what exactly?) and the second was that Bell was just passing along something he really didn't want to the first person he thought might appreciate it more (not as likely).
Looking at the passage in the book again, I think the second idea is right. Bell had just been given the gun by a constituent that morning. He wanted to play the open-handed, generous politician, and that was handy and seemed appropriate. He was wrong about that, though. Nobody who cared anything at all about guns would leave one to rust in a drawer for years and not even keep it oiled. I bet Hundert didn't even unload it. (Bell's remark "Be careful with that, by the way. It still fires." implies it's loaded.)
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All the while reading and discussing this short story, I kept feeling like I was reading a parable from the Bible. Ethan Canin seems to have a style of writing stories which deal with many hidden messages. This story, much like a parable or allegory, has many hidden meanings dealing with morals and politics.
Once Barb brought to mind St. Benedict, my feelings heightened about how this feels like the Liturgical readings I hear at Mass, and how they always touch me in a certain way, leaving me with much to ponder throughout the week, after I leave church on Sunday. Jesus had a way about teaching through parables, so we would not judge others, but so we ourselves would look closer at our own actions. Mr. H., has spent decades going over his past actions, his Mea Culpas, so to speak. Yet, I never really got the feeling he truly did have a change of heart, or change of actions, even after he would admit where he saw he did wrong. I think this is what has bothered me so much about the character, is that his character is flawed, yet he wants to be the molder of character, in these young boys.
I can't help but keep going back to the uneasy feeling I have had in his obsession with Sedgewick, and even his teaching at St. Benedict's. He made this his life. Why? So again, I have to revisit the idea Halcyon brought up early on about him possibly being homosexual. His life and actions for the era would certainly raise questions of a man who never married, lives an isolated life, and is obsessed with a young boy. There are three different times I felt the author has given us a glimpse into the possibility of Mr. H., being gay.
1. Sedgewick, asks if he was ever married, and mentions him making the boys dress in togas.
2. Mr. Bell says, his son had told him a lot about Mr. H., and he may want to keep that in mind. Sounding very much like a threat.
3. Mr. Ellerby visits Mr. H., and mentions the fact he has never married.
I don't think these are coincidences. I sense they are hidden messages. It really does not matter if he is or is not gay, but if Mr. Ellerby, Mr. Bell, or even Sedgwick suspected he was, it is very possible that could have had something to do with him not getting the Headmaster position.
I see the themes dealing with morals, and character building. My personal opinion is that each individual is responsible for their own character and moral fiber. Others can surely influence us in our lifetime, but ultimately, only we can make the decisions as to how we will morally choose to live, which will mold our character. Jesus, like this author, presents situations for us to decide which way we will personally choose to deal with these situations. While Mr. H., may have been thinking his actions were justified, because his intentions were good, ultimately he was no better or worse, than those he was judging to have lack of character. A politician or a teacher, a headmaster or a student, regardless of what career or position, or age you are, you ultimately must decide on what path you will choose in life. Will you do what is right, or will you choose to do wrong? Can one person's wrong, discount your wrong?
I'm beginning to soften, and feel sorry for Mr. H., because I do feel he failed, not only his students, but he failed himself. He denies the accusation of having the gun, and later that evening takes the gun to a distant marsh and throws it in. He says, “I became obsessed with the idea that I had missed this most basic lesson of the past, that conviction is the alpha and the omega of authority. Now I see that I was doomed the moment I threw that pistol in the water, for that is when I lost my conviction” (pg. 182).
This is where I do believe Mr. H., has learned the hidden message like in a parable/allegory. Mr. Ellerby had to have been told to ask him about the gun. The only two people who knew he had the gun was Senator Bell, and possibly Sedgewick. Mr. H., has to realize later that he was set up to be overlooked for the headmaster position, and to be fired, when Ellerby asked about the gun. Throwing the gun away was his lesson learned, too late. I believe Mr. Bell gave Mr. H., that gun as a part of a bribe, and a future set up. It had nothing to do with a gift a history teacher would like having. Mr. Bell and Sedgewick are molded from the same fabric, poor Mr. H., never saw them coming.
I feel Mr. H., lost Sedgewick's respect and possible chance at ever molding or influencing his character here: “I did not know at the time what an act of corruption I had committed, although what is especially
chilling to me is that I believe that Sedgewick Bell, even at the age of thirteen, did” (pg. 172).
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/05/22/what-is-a-parable-a-bible-definition/
What Is A Parable? A Bible Definition
May 22, 2014 by Jack Wellman 0 Comments
Jesus gives us many parables in the Bible. What is a parable? Why does He use parables…to hide or clarify the meaning?
Parables
The word parable is from the root word “paraballo” or in the Greek “parabole.” This compound word comes from “para” which means “to come along side or compare” and “ballo” which literally means “to throw” or “see” with. The parables are used in giving one or more instructional lessons or principles and can be an allegory and may include inanimate objects (like trees, plants, or things) or people in various societal positions.
There is often a tension between good and evil or sinful and holy meaning that they can proclaim what is good versus what is bad and what is evil in contrast to what is holy or God-like. A parable is often a significant comparison between two objects that may be used as a mirror image of a comparable object to teach a single concept or teaching. Some of the key words that Jesus usually concludes the parables with are phrases that alert the listener to pay close attention to what was just said and may include such words as “He who has ears, let him hear, Most assuredly I say to you,” and “How much more.” Jesus wants the listeners to focus on what was just stated in the parable so that they will comprehend what Jesus is trying to teach them.
Hidden from Some
Jesus clearly gives parables to hide the meaning from those whose hearts are hardened. Some of the parables are hard to understand but they frequently serve as object lessons that use experiences from life to clearly communicate a meaning for Jesus’ teachings. Jesus quotes Isaiah the Prophet by saying “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world” (Matt 13:35). The disciples asked Jesus “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matt 13:10-11) otherwise “they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them” (Matt 13:15b) because “the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened” (Heb 4:2). So we can say that parables were given to hide the meaning from those who choose to reject Jesus and the message of God and to clarify or give a fuller meaning and understanding to those who believed on the Lord.[/color]
Sadly, this story takes place at a school named after a saint, but there are few saintly ones in this story. Ethan Canin has taken man's weaknesses, the seven deadly sins to tell a story, and to teach the reader a lesson dealing with one's own morals and character. For me, it was like sitting in church, listening to the priest teaching us from the parables in scripture. These characters actions are not for me to judge, their actions are for me to learn from. Much like I teach my third grade religious class, I tell my students when they are faced with a situation, and are uncertain of which choice to make, stop and ask yourself...WWJD?
(What would Jesus do)
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I would think bellamaria you would want to celebrate Mr. H and all those at St. Benedict's - yes, they are sinners which is the reminder to us all that we are all sinners.
Saint Benedict admired and copied his monasteries after John the Ascetic, better known as John Cassian 360 – 435 - a contemporary of St. Augustine - choosing the influence of John Cassian over St. Augustine.
What went on during this early time in history is something else and these are the saints admired by St. Benedict and they are his guide. Benedict used the formula of life and prayer established by the Desert Fathers and John Cassian as part of the Liturgy of the Hours that later became the Liturgy for the Western Church.
Let's start with the easy admirable stuff like; Gregory the Great’s teaching on the seven deadly sins comes from Cassian, as does much of his teaching on compunction and prayer. St Philip Neri used to read the work of John Cassian during Mass. The writings of John Cassian influenced John of Damascus, St Dominic, St Francis de Sales and Cardinal Newman.
As a young adult, John Cassian and an older friend travel to Palestine, where they enter a hermitage near Bethlehem. Fifteen years later they flee to Constantinople because of the Anthropomorphic controversy provoked by Theophilus, Archbishop of Alexandria, along with the 300 other Origenist monks.
Still tame but questionable; the Origenist monk's teachings are contrary to the teachings of the apostles, Paul and John. They believe in the pre-existence of souls, the final reconciliation of all creatures, good and bad, including the devil (the apokatastasis, which is the original or primordial condition), and they believe Jesus, as the Son of God is subordinate to God the Father, rather than Jesus being part of the Holy Trinity.
Then the biggie - Archbishop Theophilus of the Origenist's finds a hidden pagan temple. He and the Origenists put on public display and mock the pagan artifacts, which of course the pagans are outraged and attack the Christians. The Christians fight back, forcing the pagans to retreat. The emperor sends a letter to Archbishop Theophilus telling him he should pardon the pagans, but instead the Archbishop completely destroys the temple. Included in writings of Socrates, a contemporary, the destruction of the temple was because of the request by the emperor for pardon. Since, both ancient and modern authors use the destruction of this temple as "the" triumph of Christianity over other religions. (sheesh some triumph)
Then get this - Archbishop Theophilus, turned against his own, the Origenists who fled to Constantinople, had them persecuted putting himself at the head of an army, and arming his servants they march against the monks, burn their huts and houses, torture and starve those he captured. John Cassian escaped because he could speak Latin and was sent to Rome by the Patriarch of Constantinople to plead their case to Pope Innocent.
And then, the understatement of atom bomb proportions - Archbishop Theophilus becomes Pope Theophilus of Alexandria.
All this is the historical heritage of St. Benedict - St. Benedict's school - we today, who practice the Catholic faith - we accept this religion that is standing in the goo of these horrors because we know we are human - and as such, we have been given grace that connects our soul to God and, the church in its wisdom made absolution for sinners a sacrament so that, without expecting us to hold back because of past transgressions we would continue to do our best.
We all know and accept it is God who will judge, not us - we are expected to 'love our neighbor as ourselves' knowing our neighbor, like ourselves are guilty of all sorts of sins.
After all that, in other words, I feel very uncomfortable to hear this drum beat about the sins of a character in a novel without considering the arch of the character - we must ask what the so called sin was trying to symbolize and ultimately how this so called sin affects the theme of the story.
Readers have to ask if Mr. H. was as perfect as you would prefer, what kind of story would we be reading - what would be the tensions within the character and between characters - he is not the devil incarnate because he acted typical of a teacher in the 1940s. Yes, he acted far different than how we expect teachers today would behave as they teach history students. We must remember this story was written about the experiences of teachers, administrators, parents and boys in the 1940s not in the twenty-first century.
In the past you had been great about finding and sharing the differences in behavior of characters placed in the nineteenth century - what happened - it is as if these recent character driven behaviors we read about are hitting a button in your life and you no longer see them as characters but as if they were real people that you need to let your outrage be known how badly they act - we know because you have in the past been great about seeing a character as just that, a character that influences the plot, conflict and theme - please become the old Bellamarie - we have not seen that old Bellamarie in months - we miss her.
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Barb,
In the past you had been great about finding and sharing the differences in behavior of characters placed in the nineteenth century - what happened - it is as if these recent character driven behaviors we read about are hitting a button in your life and you no longer see them as characters but as if they were real people that you need to let your outrage be known how badly they act - we know because you have in the past been great about seeing a character as just that, a character that influences the plot, conflict and theme - please become the old Bellamarie - we have not seen that old Bellamarie in months - we miss her.
Wow, I must say I am extremely hurt by this post and personal judgement of me and my comments. I do not have any buttons being triggered from my life as you suggest. I see these characters in this story similar to everyone else, the author in an interview I read, says he bumped into his teacher years later, and went home and decided to write this story because this particular teacher was very tough on him. Many members here said how this story has sparked memories of their past teachers, and horrible experiences, so does that not in fact show these characters are being looked at and compared to, as real life people from their own pasts? I've always thought a good author brings his characters to real life. When you can see a character as real, it means the author has wrote a great story. I am very confused as to how my comments have brought about so much chastisement because I do not agree with everyone else's feelings or opinions. I did not teach, in the 1940's, and I began elementary school in the late 1950's. I have no horror stories of teachers from my past. I guess I was fortunate to have had wonderful, caring teachers, who I grew up admiring so much so I named my only daughter after a high school teacher who was my mentor, and inspired me to go into a teaching career myself. My high school principal was great, he liked me so much so, he asked me to work in the school office. In August I will be attending my 45th High School reunion, and have reconnected with many of my old alumni, and we are so excited and anxious to get together to share our memories. Most of us began Kindergarten together, and graduated high school together. We all seem to have much admiration and respect for our teachers we had, and although we at times were little rebels, and some teachers could be considered hard, we took that in our stride and found the humor in it. So very possibly this is why I feel how I do about Mr. H. Which I will not repeat, since I have been told I have so many times already.
Barb, I would think bellamaria you would want to celebrate Mr. H and all those at St. Benedict's - yes, they are sinners which is the reminder to us all that we are all sinners.
If you go back and re read my post you will see in fact I did say,
These characters actions are not for me to judge, their actions are for me to learn from.
Is giving my opinions and feelings considered judging? I searched and read articles of other reviews, since I feel I have been harshly judged for my comments here, and surprisingly I have found others who have almost said the exact feelings of the theme and characters of the people here in this story as I have expressed, so I am very confused why I am being so harshly criticized. I enjoy and respect differences of opinions, I would not want all of us to see and feel the same way, because that would make for a very dull and boring discussion. I have shared the comments with my husband and neighbor who is also a teacher and they both have wondered why my comments are being targeted. I will refrain from participating any further on this story.
Ginny, forgive me for not continuing with this discussion, I have such different views on teaching, regardless of what year it is, and my standards seem too high. Considering we are touching lives of the future, I prefer to err on treating all students with respect, rather than ridicule, or obsession.
I am truly sorry, if at any time I have shown anything less than respect in my responses to anyone. No comments for me is necessary since I will not be checking back into this discussion. Thank you to those who were not so judgemental or offended by my comments.
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We've lost Bellamarie. What a pity. I did feel she was too hard on poor Mr Hundert. But she did have her reasons. I should have told her to watch the movie. It's a truer picture of an excellent teacher. He was remembered by all his students with pleasure.
And there is Mr Hundert's haunting statement at the end of the story, quoted by Ginny:
'I wanted him (Deepak Mehta) to ask, "how is it to be alone, sir, at this age?' or perhaps to say, "You have made a difference in my life, Mr Hundert." '
Hasn't he been telling us for fifty pages.
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Along the way in a long life of teaching:
'As assistant headmaster I had not taught my beloved Roman history in many years, so that poring through my reams of notes was like returning at last to my childhood home. I stopped here and there among the files. I reread the term paper of young Derek Bok entitled "The Search of Diogenes" and the scrawled one of James Watson called "Archimedes' Method." Among the art projects I found John Updikes 's reproduction of the Obelisk of Cleopatra and a charcoal drawing of the Baths of Caracala by the absractionist Robert Motherwell, unfortunately torn in two and no longer worth anything." p183
I wonder how these distinguished people remember, or remembered Mr. Hundert.
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"This dream is all amiss interpreted." Julius Caesar again, :) Shakespeare this time.
Bellamarie, I am sorry to see your post, and I hope that you may yet change your mind.
I do think there are some misunderstandings here and I would like to try, if possible, to straighten some of them out in the hopes of ameliorating the situation.
It's quite difficult to discuss books which often touch our lives when you can't see the faces of the people you're talking to. It's easy to misunderstand intent, humor and nuance.
First off, there seems to be a total misconception of "the '40's issue," and the reason it was introduced. It was introduced with about 200 disclaimers stating that NOBODY thinks that ANY era is ANY excuse for misdoing. This has been said so many times why take up more space now with it? If it wasn't read or understood the first time, I won't repeat it now.
So any thought to the contrary is based on misunderstanding and only that. It was a different world, period. As we can see that from the people who did speak up, and the author himself (read on). And it wasn't only the 40's.
so does that not in fact show these characters are being looked at and compared to, as real life people from their own pasts?
No. Mine were intended as examples in real life of what happened in those times, which you stated didn't make any difference. Nobody thinks Mr. Hunderdt or any of these characters are real people. Symbols, maybe (which we've said from the beginning) real, no.
You said: I see these characters in this story similar to everyone else, the author in an interview I read, says he bumped into his teacher years later, and went home and decided to write this story because this particular teacher was very tough on him.
You left out something important there. The actual quote is:
You say you didn’t have many great teachers. Was there one in particular that influenced you?
I actually wrote [this story] after encountering—20 years after graduating—an old grade school teacher of mine. He was a fabulous teacher: a tyrant. It turns out those are the kind of teachers I remember. All the Roman and Greek history that was in the story (not in the movie) I actually remembered cause he just drove it into us.
I met the guy on the street 20 years later and he was practically homeless. He was bedraggled. He was ill. He died a couple of months later. I went home that day and wrote the story just thinking of him.
The author is saying, unless I don't understand him, that you can be a good teacher, no, a fabulous teacher, and a tyrant, too. THAT was the times, apparently that's not true today? Apparently not. But it was then.
He saw him on the street and recalled how "fabulous" he WAS and that he obviously had not come to great estate. He says that in the heading. He saw him and in his imagination I guess he created in his mind what could have reduced him to this spot and how he deserved better.
He does not say what he said to him. I would like to know if he spoke.
But in the book Mr. Hundert tries, despite his many many "sins," to redeem himself. He does speak up, trying to right his life. Furthermore he says as Sedgewick Bell knew he would.
I think personally, since I have not said a thing about Sedgewick Bell, that Mr. Hundert uses the word "obsession" in a different way than has been interpreted here. Certainly not sexually, my gosh he says there must always be a distance between teacher and student and can't even, even when Deepak is an old man, when he so desperately wants praise or at least appreciation, allow himself to initiate it by expressing a personal interest: oh you did have a heart attack? Can't even go that far, that personal.
He means something different by the word obsession. I interpreted it like the filmmaker did. He wants to help. He starts down a slippery path. He, however, does try to right it. That's the reason for the "proud" and "foolish" smile.
How do you feel about THIS issue of redemption? I feel, personally, that he must be allowed his turnaround. If he's to be excoriated for his mistakes, willfully made, he must be allowed at least credit for trying, the climax of the plot (or is it?) and his moment of triumph. I truly don't think Sedgewick was harmed by Mr. Hunderdt, he had his dad for that, who did mold him in his own image.
But here Jonathan is citing what he DID do right, the projects. I doubt any of those people forgot those projects. I remember mine. I found the rationale of the film producer who did a completely different take on it, interesting. He agrees with Bellamarie that Mr. Hundert started it:
What do you think of the way that Mr. Hundert handles the cheating?
Kevin Kline as Mr. Hundert discussing Sedgewick’s cheating with the school headmaster, Mr. Woodbridge (played by Edward Herrmann)Neil: It’s a really good question. You’re asking two guys who’ve both cheated in the past. When he catches him cheating the first time… the problem was he (Mr. Hundert) cheated first. He started it. Without that in there, of course you have to stand up and say “you’re cheating.” I don’t think life is black and white. The kid is a hurt emotional kid. He was being human at the moment. He had no idea the kid was going to go and stab him in the back. He had to protect him from his father. So I think there are times when you have to weigh the level of the cheating. I believe that’s why he doesn’t and shouldn’t say anything.
He says here "There are times when you have to weigh the level of the cheating." I think that's true. This is why the movie is different, and has a different ending. I haven't seen the movie in a long time, how does it end, those of you who have just seen it?
Jonathan, you said: Hasn't he been telling us for fifty pages. That's a good question. HAS he? I must be thick, I don't see it. Do you think it represents a sudden realization?
In the paragraph before this he says almost the opposite. Are you thinking he's longing for appreciation but doesn't know how to attain it? And that is what he's been telling us this entire time? Perhaps that when he met Sedgewick Bell he thought to help him (I know he did) and thus have THAT as his proudest moment?
Many people here have remarked on how "sad" the story is. I don't think the "thief" is who everybody thinks it or he is. We've got a lot to talk about. :)
What is the climax of the plot, to you?
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This book is a chameleon. Every time I reread something it looks different to me. I'm going to have to do some rethinking.
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. :) Me, too. It reminds me of those GPS systems, "recalculating."
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Isn't it a wonderful book for discussion though? Only 50 pages. Look at that plot, isn't it a wonderful choice to discuss? I really want to look at the plot and the way the book is written before too much longer.
I'm struck by that list that Jonathan put here of the projects of Mr. Hundert's students. Not the famous men who did them, but the variety of subjects. What kind of teacher must this man have been to have incorporated these variety of things things into his lesson plans? I also would like to see his lesson plan that included Cleopatra's obelisk.
I'm sure you know that's referred to as Cleopatra's Needle and there are three of them, one in Paris, one in London, and one in Central Park. In fact you can see it from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in the section where there's a big wall of glass windows you can look right out on it. The interesting thing about that is where they found it and how they got it to New York I think that's one of the most interesting stories I've ever read, highly recommended, better than Indiana Jones.
That and the fact that mr Sawass and Egypt requested it back because it wasn't being taken care of so last year they covered it in scaffolding and they're doing lasers to clean that thing... it's just a fantastic story, but the best part of it is how they got it to New York City.
So many themes in this little novel. Retirement and aging. What it is to be retired. Supposedly they say it's easier for women. Do you think that's true? Here we have an old man looking back. You know what they say about retirement and men, it's particularly hard on men because they were a captain of industry or they were known as this or that and now when they go somewhere they are overlooked passed by just another old crock. Has maybe too much to say about things. They lose that authority they once had and it's hard for a lot of men to adjust. In fact, correct me on this, but I think the heart attack right for men in the first two years following retirement is quite high.
And yet yesterday came an article in the news about a woman in the Midwest who in her retirement trying all sorts of things that didn't work out that much but she kept developing new interests and now she's famous for her rescue dogs that she trained that go out and search ruins to try to find and help those who might be trapped.
Not everybody can make that adjustment. Not everybody can develop playing basketball in their 70s 80s and 90s like those incredible absolutely incredible women on the newsSaturday.
Retirement in the Golden age. Isn't all it's cracked up to be? All tha accumulated knowledge and wisdom. Who wants to hear it now?
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There's an hilarious cartoon in the New Yorker in an article called Why Smart People Are Stupid showing a guy standing up the podium in academic robes and he says, I know so much I don't know where to start. Hahaha
How do you think Mr. Hundert is going to do this in his retirement? Do you think he's going to end up like the Dr. Canin's old teacher? What are some signs that he might or might not?
I've hit on this idea of trying something new: Mini Questions, one a day for 5 days. Going to try new things.
You know we were the first book club on the Internet, we really actually aimed this site at of those over 60 originally and then those over 50 because we really did want to hear what those years of accumulated knowledge and wisdom have taught you....that's what our book clubs are all about.
But I like different things and new things so I'm going to try this today to see if it works. It won't work if everybody just sits on their hands and doesn't say anything so I hope you will give it your best shot.
The Topic du Jour is Retirement and Old Age, and how you think Mr. Hundert is faring, what you think of what he's doing with his time, and if you think he will end up like Dr. Canin's real teacher in real life. Why or why not? What relationdoes his retirement have to the revelations he's making in this story, if any?
Penny for your thoughts. :)
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That was intended to be a couple of lines of post. Hahaha
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Ginny, you asked earlier about themes.....isolation, loses of innocence, power and betrayal are just a few.
Retirement might be difficult for Mr. H. His has been a very self centered existence, king of his classroom, students coming to him with problems. Even as he advanced he was in charge of his domain, still living inside his head. I can't really see him ending up homeless but I can't see him taking on the challenges of anything new. Personally I think retirement is very difficult. I've taken another job, part time and very interesting. Can't figure out what one would do at home, surely not cook and clean!
I really have to watch the movie again. I was half expecting Kevin Kline to revert to his character in A Fish Called Wanda and probably didn't pay attention as I should.
The gun. Someone mentioned that the gun could have been a subtle bribe. I can see the senator thinking that Mr. H would be telling everyone how important he was because the senator gave him an antique gun. Didn't happen though.
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Hey Bellamarie, you opened my eyes to something in the story I had missed. I don't tend to read long posts, so I haven't read all of yours (and many others too of-course) but I agree with what I have read. Teachers can be sarcastic or plain nasty but I do expect them not to cheat to let a more important pupil win or for any other reason. I really don't care about his psyche or why he did it.
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That's a crucial turning point for Hundert, and lands him in the mess that follows. I agree, cheating like that is totally unacceptable for a teacher. I think I would not have fudged that grade. However, I might have asked the question that wasn't on Bell's cheat sheet. I would have already seen that Bell was cheating, and been ordered to ignore it or lose my job, and I would have been pretty mad about that. So it's using a cheat to prevent a cheat.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online: July 7-31
The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/palacethief/Palacethief2.jpg)
" I tell this story not for my own honor, for there is little of that here, and not as a warning, for a man of my calling learns quickly that all warnings are in vain..."
"For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught"....("My Way" sung by Frank Sinatra)
"This is a story without surprises..." (Mr. Hundert).
| Topic #2: The Themes in The Palace Thief |
Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
Let's look at themes in this story this week. In order to do this we'll first call on you to identify any themes you see running through the book.
-To start out, do you agree or disagree with the author about the theme he sees in the book? Why or why not?
-What are some themes you have noted in the book? We'll put ALL of them up here so we can all discuss them.
----betrayal (ginny)
----nature vs. nurture (Frybabe)
----courage
----fear (Halcyon)
----character and morals
----isolation (Halcyon)
----loss of innocence (Halcyon)
----self survival/self serving (Bellamarie)
----fallibility (Dana)
----power (Halcyon)
----retirement and old age (Topic du Jour 7/14
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-Other questions raised by our readers:
----WAS Mr.Hunderdt a good teacher, do you think? Why or why not? (Jonathan)
----Was there a character you took an instant dislike to? Who and why? (Pat)
----What is the climax of the book? Why?
----Which of the children was most injured my Mr Hundert's manipulating the grades? (BellaMarie)
----Do you think you would have different feelings about the characters, had you not read the entire fifty pages at once? (BellaMarie)
---Whjat is the most interesting quote from the book, to you? Why? (Jonathan)
-Once we get a list of the themes we can discuss which one we think is the most powerful in the story, what the real purpose of the story IS, and all the questions you have raised as well.
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Interesting Links:
Annotations for The Palace Thief from Chulalongkorn University (http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~tpuckpan/Canin,%20Ethan-thepalacethief.html) *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.
Discussion Leader: Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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On the other hand, another possibility. I'll play Devil's Advocate.
I wonder if anybody has considered the fact that most history tests are objective? You can have 20 points here and 20 "points" there and the "points" are totally at the whim of the instructor. One day he might have pains in his neck and grade more harshly. One day he might be feeling good and everybody gets a higher score.
Objective is not numerical, it is not possible to adjust a numerical score. 13 year olds can count.
In reality giving a student 90 when in fact it might warrant only an 87 on another day or by another instructor, and we're talking 3 points, is something I bet happens every day. NOT in aid of "cheating." The teacher wants to encourage XX so he gets a 90 this time. Because of the objective nature of the subject. It does make a difference if it's a contest, but reality check again: Mr. Hundert is the judge of who enters the contest, it's his decision, he really does not have to answer to anybody about it, he's chosen to base it on who are the "top three," so they can all work toward it, and it's possible that all the scores for the whole term have probably been objective, anyway. That's a hard burden, (did I prefer one student unfairly, you note he's asking himself these questions as he tells US), for any man to bear. Especially into retirement.
But the reality IS, that objective scores in any subject are just that: objective. I believe that's what we're talking about here because... it's not possible to "adjust" a score up or down 3 points if it's numerically scored. It's simply not possible.
I believe here, (and I realize that I have lost those of you who don't like long posts), sorry about that, but I believe here that Mr. Hunderdt is doing a little self bashing, self recrimination in his retrospection and it's entirely possible that his "cheating" that we're so obsessed with excoriating him for might be entirely in his head. Like Jimmy Carter, he might be expressing what he felt was his desire, but in reality it might really HAVE been better. He's the only judge of that.
Also, there's no way on earth had he told Mr. Bell that his son was cheating that the " the horrible truth" that he considered the paper a 90 and the work was really (by his same consideration) an 87...all objective..could ever have come out or be revealed. It was all in his head.
It can't be a numerically scaled test. He could NOT have adjusted it.
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I wanted to say to Halcyon, I love your themes, and I put them in the heading, I hope we get to discuss them, especially isolation. There are all kinds of isolation. I agree with you on retirement, too, hooray for you and the part time job!
I read somewhere that you need three things in old age: something or someone to love, something to do, and I can't remember the third. Maybe it was something about purpose? I wish I could find that list.
And that's another possibility for the gun! It's entirely possible with Hiram Bell's ego he felt that way. The gun was a surprising plot twist. I almost want to write the author to find out what he intended. But perhaps knowing what he thought the theme was, is enough to chew on. We will need to decide if, in fact, he met that goal stated in the heading.
But also with retirement, I think, especially if you are introspective like Mr. Hundert, and...well we've seen he refers to his teaching as a "calling," and we know he's proud of his legacy...I think you tend to worry (at least I do) over things that perhaps weren't in your personal 99th percentile of greatness and perfection you strove for, like probing a sore tooth with a tongue, over and over, worrying about things you did less than correctly over your long life, and which bother you. That you can do nothing about now. Including things that nobody else would possibly even pause to think over. How would you express them, explain them to yourself? Would you do it differently today? Do you regret doing them if they turned out well (or badly?)
Maybe nobody here is at that point or will never get there. I think he's there.
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Pat, I'm starting to think of you as Cool Hand Pat. I love the way you express yourself, it looks so clear and logical when you say it.
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If this incident of Mr. H. being what today we would consider nasty is included in the story the question becomes why - what part of the dynamics of the story is it meant to play.
At this time in history a teacher was expected to 'whip boys into shape' with the kind of bluster and control shown by Hyram Bell - and yet, even Mr. H. is not only in awe but a little scared of Hyram - that shows us Mr. H. is on the pivotal point of still being a boy like his students (he was probably only in his 20s not long out of collage himself) and he was playing the bully to gain the control of his boys as expected of him or pivotal was being the man in complete control of his class with no concern of the boys liking him similar to Hyram.
In the 40s there was no such word ever uttered of 'self-esteem' - even the idea a student was a 'self' never entered anyone's mind - yes, my experience was benign however, I am remembering the many social gatherings when I was in my 20s and the men, all with half a smile on their face, told of how it was with Brothers walking the aisles in combat boots and other teachers with sticks and and and - then when two or more of these men shared it only sparked knowing laughter between them. It was as if they had walked through a baptism of fire and felt their success was because of their classroom experience.
In the 40s there were very few coed classes after the 6th grade - and if there was no rooms for separation, than in classrooms boys were on one side and girls on the other with boys often leaving the room to learn more than gym but, health and biology and even history was taught in another part of the school, usually in the gym/auditorium.
To have a student come in fresh and immediately set up a clique of boys that were undermining a teacher was just not tolerated. Think the Citadel before it was a co-educational collage - that was the example for boys from the time before they got out of knickers that in city schools were typical till the seventh grade.
Had Mr. H. used corporal punishment, in keeping with the times, than the balance of who had the control could not be carried through the story - There were many examples of one humiliating with meanness another through out the story including the way Charles Ebberly handled retiring Mr. H.
That could be a question - why do we tolerate meanness adult to adult and yet, we react differently if the meanness is directed at a disruptive boy who quickly established a clique as an aggressive move that affects the dynamics in the classroom on many levels - e.g. the boys not included in the clique now are not sure how they should participate - they will question their loyalty to Mr. H and probably no longer learn on the level they were learning when the class was unified.
I think had Mr. H. created a clique among teachers he probably would have faired a better retirement but isolated as he had been throughout his life left him as easy pickings. The one time when he trusted and made a friend it bit him.
This story reminds me of the rash of stories that came about soon after the war - men were no longer shown as the John Wayne type characters - they lived in comparison small lives, doing small deeds - the rise of the anti-hero.
Yes, that is it isn't it - Mr. H. is an example of an anti-hero
The literary standard for an anti- hero include:
Imperfections that separate them from typically heroic characters (selfishness, ignorance, bigotry, etc.)
They lack of positive qualities such as "courage, physical prowess, and fortitude," and generally feel helpless in a world over which they have no control
They often share qualities belonging to villains (amorality, greed, violent tendencies, etc.) that may be tempered with more human, identifiable traits (confusion, self-hatred, etc.) In fact, antiheroes often blur the moral lines between the protagonist and antagonist.
Holden Caulfield, Quentin Compson, Stephen Dedalus, Meursault in Camus' Stranger - who else, Gregory Peck in the Man in the Grey Flannel suit although that was in the 50s. The Othello's and Hamlet's of literature.
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The depressive is focused on past errors, those with anxiety disorder on future fears.
I just read something like this recently, a Chinese philosopher of long ago ,I believe. I guess I remember it because it's true.
I just re-read the story (well, bits of it.....!)
I changed my mind, I don't think Hundert was too nasty in his class (sorry, Bellamarie!)
I do think he was arrogant, imaging telling the senator he would "mould" his son! The senator's reply was spot on. If a pupil is moulded by a teacher that is perhaps lucky but not deliberately achieved by the teacher. I think his arrogance, self importance, is why I dislike him.
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Oh but Dana I think that is looking through our eyes today - you are right, we could never imagine a teacher molding our children or thinking they had the audacity to suggest such a thing - but that was what most private schools featured even in their advertisements and letters to current and prospective parents - Even private day schools were expected by parents to have teachers instill the moral values and mold their child for the future and so that is why I think the visit to Hyram Bell was an inexperienced teacher that felt intimidated because Hyram would expect Mr. H. to use the bigger than life tactics he uses to be successful as the means to prepare his son for the future -
Hmm another symbol for that gun - an old gun at that - passing along the power and control used at the time to do the historical job as it was known to prepare boys for their future.
I think that is why the response by the head to Mr. H.'s concern for a student cheating is so startling - if the school is committed to molding these boys than that is not the kind of thinking that we associate with a morality of integrity. And yet, the dichotomy is to be solvent a school elevates boys with potential for future endowments to the school.
Still done today when you hear the interviews with the heads of most collages when they talk about how they select their student body. Charlie Rose has had great interviews with the presidents of several Universities talking about this aspect of funding higher education.
This story sure stretches us - it brings up aspects of life that we all really share from different viewpoints
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It's the wildest book I've read in a long time. And I can see, by the posts, it's having a great effect on all of us. Teacher tells all.
The gun was a bribe. A cheap bribe, and I can hear Hiram Bell saying, 'Help my son along.' And the teacher, fascinated by power, in both father and son, is like the moth and the flame. What a story Mr Hundert has to tell. From fudging grades to denying someone the presidency.
'I taught a boy who, if not for the vengeful recriminations of the tabloids, would today have been president of the United States.'
That, for me, is the most interesting statement in the book. Is it really Sedgewick Bell he is talking about? 'Sedgewick was a dull boy.' But he wormed his way into Mr Hundert's heart...and the rest is history.
'Mr classroom was in fact a tribute to the lofty ideals of man, which I hoped would inspire my boys, and at the same time to the fleeting nature of human accomplishment, which I hoped would temper their ambition with humility.It was dual tactic, with which Mr Woodbridge heartily agreed.'
And then the rot set in at St Benedict's, as Mr Hundert tells it. Himself vengeful in the end.
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Ginny, can I suggest 'Grace' as the third need in old age. Grace in all its forms. Earthly and Heavenly.
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Oh my - here I really thought this was a dated approach but it appears private schools do still feel their role is in molding the child
http://elementaryschoolzine.tumblr.com/post/121908538923/what-to-find-if-you-want-a-private-school-for-your
Yes Jonathan this is one short read that hits all the buttons - it reminds me of those discussions held on PBS with a moderator and about 14 or 16 successful folks sitting in a semi-circle who are experienced in the topic and a scenario is offered with conflicting moral outlooks and behavior and as the discussion proceeds more of the problem within the scenario unfolds - have not seen it in awhile and do not remember the name of the program but there were several over the years.
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That's us, successful people sitting in a circle, I like that. :) Good group to be likened to, too.
They do say "mold" in that description, Barbara! They sure do. But the way it's written I doubt any administrator wrote it, don't you? But the "mold" thing is alive and well, that's obvious.
This "molding" debate reminds me of my mother. She taught First Grade in the '30's. She graduated from the University of North Carolina and went to SC to teach, living with a family which is what was done then apparently. She had the worst district in the town, I won't name it but its name is legion hereabouts.
She decided (this was the late '30's) to do a lesson in hygiene. So she went out and bought soap and toothbrushes and toothpaste. Then she did a fun lesson in what one should do and sent them home happily. The next morning she was met by an angry parent in school who threw the things on her desk, saying, " I send her to school for you to larn her, not to smell her."
True story. :) Not sure any molding there went on but you never know. It made a big impression on my mother.
Jonathan, Grace you'd want all the time. :)
I love what you keep saying. 'I taught a boy who, if not for the vengeful recriminations of the tabloids, would today have been president of the United States.'
That, for me, is the most interesting statement in the book. Is it really Sedgewick Bell he is talking about?
I don't know, but I have wondered. Who else could it be? Could the press somehow have gotten wind of ...what? Could somebody in the press have seen the blazer? Could somebody in the press have been close enough to HEAR what Mr. Hunderdt said? And exposed the liar Sedgewick Bell?
And I LOVE the idea of what is the most interesting statement in the book!!! Let's all say!
Truly a wild book for such a quiet little story!
Barbara, that's interesting, Mr Hundert as anti hero, the evil part does not hold up, for me, but it's an interesting attempt to identify his type of character, which is very elusive.
Dana, interesting on the depressive who focuses on past errors. Depending on what they ARE, that might make anybody depressed. Seriously. It could be a self fulfilling prophesy in a way. Poor Mr Hunderdt has nobody to confide in and nobody who can help chivvy him over it. Of course that may be his fault.
"I think his arrogance, self importance, is why I dislike him." One of our earlier questions was "Have you ever met anybody like Mr. Hundert?"
Does he remind you of anybody you have ever met?
I really love all the speculation here. And our new challenge: What to you is the most interesting quote in the book? Why?
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OK although we are not seeing the rational for our aversion to Mr. H. pan out, not only Dana and Bellamaire dislike Mr. Hundert, I think several of us on first reaction had an aversion to him - I am trying to figure out what sentences gave us that impression - Dana and Bellamarie's feelings cannot be that wrong, even if the rational does not pan out probably because of our twenty-first century look at what we think is appropriate teacher behavior but, let's look -
Y'all may pick up on other phrases or sentences than these. So, back to the beginning again. I must say re-reading again that first paragraph has many shades of understanding that I never picked up the first time I read it. We know that most literary instruction on 'how to analyze a Novel' says the summation of the novel and what it is proving is all written in the first paragraph and some even say the first sentence.
He does say, I think someone else pointed it out earlier, that the story he tells shows him to have little honor and that he is not writing the story as a warning to others. He honors St. Benedict's School as the end all, be all and then hones in, giving us a clue, this story is really about the development of one student that future students of history will see the handwriting on the wall that led him to a life as a well-known man.
OK for me the first bit that pinched but I did not register it as a biggie is when Mr. H. says, "The younger Sedgewick was a dull boy." The usual past practice of labeling a student behind his back. Not what most of us want to hear about a boy, who we have been told becomes well-known man.
He is not kind suggesting, Hyram Bell was not out and out elected but, indicates a lessor glory that Hyram rode into office on the shoulders of group fear. Suggesting the father manipulates power grabbing.
Then the wording that shows his ownership - "My students..." Reminded me of how for many years it was a habit among Real Estate agents to say, My client or My seller or My buyer - some still say it although, we have been taught we are the ones being hired and the hiring is about service - that our false concept of ownership is not part of that scenario. And so, I readily admit this tiny reaction added to my impression of Mr. Hundert, which was based in my Twenty-first century views.
Now here may be a key that Mr. H sees it as 'sad' that boys of this age turn from a Plato morality to the "powerful, pragmatic hand of Augustus." That sentence upon rereading strikes me that Mr. H. prefers the "moral endeavor of Plato." Mr. H. does label those who buy into Augustus as the 'coarser' boys. And then, we get the real key to his place in the scheme of influence - teachers at St. Benedict's were under pressure to teach these boys who will influence "the affairs of our country". We have Mr. H. concerned he could "temper their ambition with humility".
Sedgewick's first day of class is after the boys had settled in and probably the idea of wearing a toga made of sheets was an innovative teaching technique. Immediately, we have Mr. H. deciding that Sedgwick was not only dull but a roustabout. He is introduced by Mr. Woodbridge and we see that Mr. H. may have thought Sedgewick dull and a roustabout but, he quickly tunes into his fear and the bravado often displayed by a new student.
Ah so, it was "Fred Masoudi, the leader of the dullards" not Sedgewick who starts the banter about the toga's and then Sedgewick quickly picks up on the opening.
Again, we have Mr. H. labeling a student saying Sedgewick was a boor and a bully - not very complementary but great alteration on the part of the author. ;)
Hmm I wonder if that is what is so annoying - here he is again, using a sense of ownership saying, "What I asked of my boys..." then it was "through my years of teaching...and Sedgewick Bell was unwilling..." Followed again, his judging Sedgewick a poor student.
Could that be part of our aversion to Mr. H. that in spite of spitballs, wads of gum and thumbtacks we were rooting for the boy Sedgewick and we secretly like the idea of him being a "natural leader..."
OK then, if any of us were humiliated in class or saw a fellow student humiliated in class then Mr. H. is the enemy when he says, "punishment is a cultivated art". The art being to manufacture a set up so that student laughter is a given and now that Sedgewick has our soft side we do not like seeing him humiliated - yet, how else would Mr. H. confront Sedgewick taking over the class with his "natural leadership" and how else would he keep aloft for these boys bent on bringing to fruition the "powerful, pragmatic hand of Augustus" and leaving in the dust the "moral endeavor of Plato."
OK before we go any further what exactly is Plato’s moral endeavor - This site makes it easy to get the synopsis of Plato’s philosophy, mostly as it relates to Socrates
http://www.hoocher.com/Philosophy/plato.htm.
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From the link the lines that I see as eye opening and a help in understanding the dynamics between Mr. Hundert, Sedgewick and his father, even between Mr. Hundert and Mr. Woodbridge as well as, Charles Ebberly.
c. Plato was brought up to think that democracy was a form of corruption in government. (Mr. Hundert does not run a democratic classroom)
1. Plato points out in his Apology (lit., a defense or explanation of the truth or justice) that Socrates could have avoided death by leaving Athens before the trial began, a customary practice at that time. (Sounds like Mr. Hundert taking the low road confronting cheating)
Plato recounts the trail speech of Socrates – some of the highlights of that speech are in direct relationship to this story.
a. Not until you have pursued wisdom and truth ought you to think of money or fame or prestige or of the body.
b. Virtue does not come from money, but from virtue comes money and every other good thing for mankind, public and private
a. To know the good is to do the good -- evil and vice are due to the lack of knowledge or to ignorance (and nothing else).
b. Then wrongdoing (sin) comes only from failure to know what is good.
Socrates: "No one does evil voluntarily."
c. Socrates insists that when one does an evil act, it is always with the thought that it will bring some good or benefit.
d. People spend their lives striving for power, or prestige, or wealth thinking that it is good and will make them happy.
Socrates maintains that they do not know that these are not good and will not bring them happiness.
e. One needs to know human nature, the true nature of human beings, in order to know what is good for humans and what brings happiness.
f. The Unexamined Life: Never to know what is good for human beings is to live a life of striving to achieve but never finding happiness.
Socrates: "The unexamined life is not worth living."
OK taking what Mr. H. would know about Plato and Socrates let's continue looking at the story for clues to why we have this aversion to Mr. Hundert
The big error in Mr. Hundert's "In retrospect," musings that only shows his weakness as compared to most men playing power games who are striving for power, or prestige, or wealth tell it - you never say you made a mistake and then, Mr. H. further acknowledges it was he who shot the poison arrow when he convinces a boy of his stupidity. He even goes as far as blaming himself for the future life choices of Sedgewick Bell.
Is that it - we picked up on the guilt that now feels ego centered because of all the earlier "I" and "my" statements as well as, the self-blame because we were uncomfortable reading how he judged negatively this boy and as long as he was blaming himself we could ride his bandwagon?
This lament and confession is immediately followed by the description of his stark and monk like room both living, sleeping and office. Was this the self-flagellation used by monks for generations - it sure does not fit our idea of promoting ourselves as children of a loving and forgiving God or, the Socrates ‘examined life’ philosophy or, the really telling points, "No one does evil voluntarily" and c. Socrates insists that when one does an evil act, it is always with the thought that it will bring some good or benefit.
Well whatever are the words in this story that hit any of you that support an aversion to Mr. Hundert, even before he makes his pilgrimage to the office of Hyram Bell, he is not arriving as a hero in the eyes of some of us and yet, the way he talks about his students is typical of the day and the way he lives reminds us of a monk professing his mea culpa.
So, the question becomes, is the negative opinion we have for this character part of the arch of the story to help the reader easily grasp the author's development of conflict and theme or, are we reacting to the changed historical perspective of appropriate teacher behavior or, are we so used to hearing the viewpoint of those striving for power, prestige and wealth that we too have put the thoughts of Plato and Socrates on the back burner therefore, we saw Mr. H as a weak and ego driven man.
I'm as confused as ever... in other words if we read this story in say 20 years later, in 1965 would we have picked up on the behavior of Mr. H. and taken a similar aversion to his character. For me I know I was reacting with a “lack of knowledge or to ignorance” of the philosophy of Socrates "to know good".
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A tidbit that I thought interesting
Notable people with the surname Hundert include:
Edward M. Hundert, American academic
Joachim Hundert (1920–1944), German Wehrmacht officer
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OH, NO, PLATO!
I remember studying Plato's Dialogues. Ugh! It was like a dog chasing it's tail.
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:) Frybabe. Interesting on Plato, Barb, it's amazing what comes up in these discussions, and in our minds, too, as we read a book. I also was quite interested in other people that have the name Hundert. I do wonder where he got that idea for that name.
I'm afraid I don't have a negative opinion of Mr. Hundert. When he lets us into his own thoughts I don't see evil. He appears to me to be trying to do good and he was misguided, he made a mistake. Several mistakes. Nobody here has ever made mistakes?
He redeemed himself and he knows better now.
To answer my own question I've known quite a few William Hundert's. I also have known unfortunately one Charles Ellerby. In fact one quite recently.
And I do understand what it takes to stand up to a Charles Ellerby. Mr. Hundert was blindsided by him; he thought he was a friend; he was betrayed, and in order to stand up to something like that takes a tremendous amount of courage which I'm not sure Mr. Hundert has had throughout the book, and strength.
Actually in my personal experience to deal with a Charles Ellerby and win can make one physically nauseous, particularly if, in real life, one is shy and introverted. Which I think Mr. Hundert also is.
Mr. Hundert didn't succeed that time. But he has the consolation that he finally stood up. I need to reread the Ellerby section because it shocked me when it happened, too, just like it shocked Mr. Hundert .
One of the questions on that link in the heading talks about battleground which surprised me but, in retrospect, there are a lot of battles being fought in this quiet little school. And, I imagine, in every life.
Based on everybody's comments to date, I'm going to reread it again now this afternoon see what I think of it now.
I thought all night about what to me is the maybe not the most interesting quote from this book, but the most important, (Jonathan's question has morphed into "most important" now for me.)
I think my choice will surprise you. What's yours?
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You know, I think I have to sympathise with Sedgewick Bell. Here he is, introduced into a class of boys in bedsheets! Surely anyone not cowed by the venerableness of the proceedings or school would think the scene and the teacher were nuts. Especially a rather pompous teacher like Mr H. I can't see any one over the age of puberty being comfortable with the whole set up ("Mr Julius Caesar"......!......Really???)
Once brainwashed by the system (" tradition") then of course people are capable of any madness.
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I thought the same thing when I first saw it. Especially with a teenage 13 year old boy. Then I thought of all the State Latin competitions I've seen and all the teenagers in togas and I sort of backed down but I did think that was something I myself would have made a joke about.
I think the togas are in this scene and in this plot for a reason. I think they were deliberately placed there to emphasize that Mr. Hunderdt knew that Sedgewick Bell would not know who Nahhunte was. Despite the fact that his plaque was on the wall, all that year, apparently Sedgewick was not intellectually curious.
The togas mean that Sedgewick was not entering on the first day. On that first day of school Mr. Hundert called attention to the plaque about Nahhunte, and what it meant and who had made it, (Henry Stimson) "partly to remind them of the great ambition and conquest that had been utterly forgotten centuries before they were born, " and then had one of the boys read Ozymandias, another reference to the futility of the insignificance of man "before the sands of time."
So in other words he made a big deal of Nahhunte and Ozymandias on the first day.
But Sedgewick missed all that and did not know it. He came in later, so he could not have possibly known it like the others did. I think the togas are a tool of the plot.
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And I think the story is a lot more cleverly written than we realize.
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You mean they wear togas .....when graduating?.....like the brightly coloured graduation gowns they wear in schools here?
Re the story, I don't follow your point..the book says clearly that he came
"midway through the fall term"
I don't know the point of the togas.....to emphasis the kind of school it was?
I am wondering about the title....both headmasters and S. and H. could qualify I suppose. Seeing H wrote the story about himself, I guess it has to be him.
Oh no, the ambiguity was meant of-course....duh....
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No they wear togas (bedsheets) like the Romans did to participate (or they did, it's been a while, I guess it was the '60's and possibly the 70's) in the various contests. Didn't seem to bother them.
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Okay, I just could not stay away, I heard all of your voices in my head and just had to check in. Oh dear me! I am laughing out loud because this story sure has set a fire under us all.
Dana, I need to clarify, I've never referred to Mr. H. as nasty. I just do not agree with how he treated Sedgewick from the very first day, and there on. I may have been a bit too hard on Mr. H., but like Jonathan stated, I have my reasons.
As for the toga, I felt the students wearing them were to get them more into character as they learned their history lesson of the emperors. Sedgewick, came into Mr. H.'s class in, November of 1945, (pg.156) and Fred Masoudi, the leader of the dullards__though far from a dullard himself__said, to mild laughter, "Where's your toga, kid?" Sedgewick Bell answered, "your mother must be wearing your pants today." Mr. H., says,[/b] "Young man," I said, this is a serious class, and I expect you will take it seriously." "If it's such a serious class, then why're they all wearing dresses?" he responded, again to laughter, although by now Fred Masoudi had loosened the rope belt at his wait and the boys around him were shifting uncomfortably in their togas. (pg. 158,59)
I have a question to pose.
Do you think you would have different feelings about the characters, had you not read the entire fifty pages at once?
Imagine not knowing the outcome of everything that took place, and the ending so soon. I tend to think my feelings may have evolved, if I had read this in sections, discovering things along the way.
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ah but what is the Palace - is it a place or a state of mind I wonder.
Ah yes - we were writing simultaneously - Bellamarie says it - Dana wearing the Toga's helps to set a mood and helps teens get out of their current view of the world - almost like visiting another country with very different traditions, language than your own. I do not think there are many teens who can step into the shoes of another culture or another person with a very different set of values as we can when we are adults and so my take again is that it was a teaching device.
Just as some folks are uncomfortable with the differences when they travel and are relieved to eat at a McDonald's in Paris, Moscow, Beijing or South Africa it appears there were some boys who were uncomfortable and the mere thought of wearing a toga was a put off for Sedgewick and so it became a joke for him at the expense of Mr. H.
I have to agree Ginny this short story is packed. You have to be more familiar with the references to the Romans - have you seen how their being included in the story is fleshing out a theme.
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Bellamarie I think the reason you read a short story all in one swoop is because of how they are structured - this tidbit may help...
Short stories are also structured differently than novels.
Novels have time to explore the full three-act structure. However, in a short story, you often only have space to write a segment of the three-act structure, usually a segment that leads up to a major, transformative event for the main character.
A good example of a major event is William Faulkner’s short story, “A Rose For Emily,” which centers on the discovery of the shy main character’s dead, decaying body in her home. The rest of the story is just build up and explanation for that one central event.
Short Stories are About One Character
Finally, short stories only focus on one major character. Novels have room to explore the lives of several major characters. For example, in Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice we closely follow the life of Jane Bennett and her relationship with Mr. Bingley.
You can’t write a subplots into your short story. They’re too brief to focus on the life of more than one major character.
And so with that we are really attempting to explore the transformative event for Mr. Hundert.
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I'd like to hold off on the meaning of the title till we've done a bit more with some of the elements of the book, if you will, but just for the record, I don't see mentioned yet what I think either word means. Of course that means NOTHING. hahahaa But please, let's hold off. I don't think we've explored all the aspects of the book yet. At that time, you may have the same idea, of course.
Oh good, Bellamarie is back! Welcome back, Bellamarie, that's a great question and I'll put it in the heading. In fact I'll bring the heading here because I think it might be interesting to refresh memories in trying to discover all the parts of the book.
Oh good Barbara is talking about plot and that's where I wanted to go next once we got through with theme. I have a new theory about the plot.
In answer to your question, Bellamarie, I couldn't have stopped, unfortunately, reading. But then again I've had to read it several times to get the meaning. Let's see what everybody else thinks.
Here is our lovely collaboration so far:
| Topic #2: The Themes in The Palace Thief |
Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
Let's look at themes in this story this week. In order to do this we'll first call on you to identify any themes you see running through the book.
-To start out, do you agree or disagree with the author about the theme he sees in the book? Why or why not?
-What are some themes you have noted in the book? We'll put ALL of them up here so we can all discuss them.
----betrayal (ginny)
----nature vs. nurture (Frybabe)
----character and morals
----fear (halcyon)
----courage
----isolation (Halcyon)
----loss of innocence (Halcyon)
----fallibility (Dana)
----self survival/self serving (Bellamarie)
----power (Halcyon)
----retirement and old age (Topic du Jour 7/14
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-Other questions raised by our readers:
----WAS Mr.Hunderdt a good teacher, do you think? Why or why not? (Jonathan)
----Was there a character you took an instant dislike to? Who and why? (Pat)
----What is the climax of the book? Why?
----Which of the children was most injured by Mr Hundert's manipulating the grades? (BellaMarie)
----Do you think you would have different feelings about the characters, had you not read the entire fifty pages at once? (BellaMarie)
---What is the most interesting quote from the book, to you? Why? (Jonathan)
-Once we get a list of the themes we can discuss which one we think is the most powerful in the story, what the real purpose of the story IS, and all the questions you have raised as well.
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I think that all of these themes are present in the book. Is there one we left out?
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Going back to Jonathan's idea yesterday, there are two quotes in a book full of really good quotes which were meaningful to me.
The quote I found most interesting was this one:
"I was struck anew by how great a privilege my profession had been." Page 182.
I also voted for this one as most meaningful (am making up "categories of awards" as I go): "Is there no battle other than the personal one?" Page 202.
But my vote for the quote of the book is:
"How deeply the viper is a viper."
I need now to find that page number because I copied it as you see it and ran off to see who wrote it. I'm surprised to find apparently nobody did, except the author. Doesn't it SOUND like something poetic?
Of all the themes in this book (and I bet there are more we haven't thought of), I think the most important one is betrayal. LOOK how many people are betrayed and by whom.
In fact, if we were to make a list and list all the betrayals, small and large (depending on your definition of betrayal) I think we'd be shocked.
That's my vote, what's yours?
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My quote for today is "My boys are passing once again into the world without me". Of course that's just for today.
I also need to add fear to the themes. Lots of fear. In fact I'm beginning to think fear is driving all the other themes.
Glad you're back Bellamarie!
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That's a great quote and that's a super theme. I've added "fear" to the heading and the list above.
What, fear causes betrayal? I will be interested to find out how. It may make a difference what KIND of betrayal it is? I saw nothing but blind ambition in Charles Ellerby but I have yet to read it entirely over which I will do.
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How about falliability. Mr H is a weak but self important man , taken over by the circumstance of having got himself a job in a posh school and filled with ideas of passing on some grandiose dream....that a knowledge of history will somehow make his pupils better able to ..what? ....live ....command......be good people.......? Strange idea.
The headmaster is weak, and money driven no doubt, he can't set the decent path for Mr H to follow.
So they aren't able to behave with strength, which S and his dad do have, as does Ellerby, but for their own self aggrandising ends.
But there is no main character who is admirable in this story.
Admirable people do exist .....but not here...!
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Thank you Dana, for that info on short stories vs novels. It was very accurate and enlightening. I have to agree with this:
Short Stories are About One Character
Even though we mention the other characters in this novella, Mr. Hundert is indeed the one character, the main character we are discussing. After all, he is also the narrator.
Ginny, I'll have to get back to you on my favorite quote.
Halcyon, Fear is indeed a part of the theme. Mr. H., is seeing his ending of career and life, and yet sees the successes and beginnings of the student's he taught. That can be filled with pride, yet bittersweet.
I just retired in April, and my largest emotion I struggled with approaching that day was fear. Fear of the unknown, what would life be like after retirement?
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"fallibility" is a good one and I've put it in the heading and in our floating chart, thank you!
When I saw it, it made me think of "and feeble as frail." Not sure where that came from.
But hist! You are saying Sedgewick is strong?
All I see him doing is cheating. The C word. hahaha Again. THREE times, he's doing the Cheating word. As a child. As an adult. And as an adult speaker shutting up the man trying to say the truth.
Cheating is not strong, is it?
Tell us why a knowledge of history will not make a more informed citizen and broaden his understanding to the point he can make informed decisions. We can actually see what happens when one does not know any history. Take Al Quaeda or however it's spelled. Invited ISIS in to help them do something...probably nefarious. And like Ariovistus and the Sequanians at Besancon, ISIS would not leave. Then Al Whoever had to appeal for help. DUH
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I love this discussion. I love these different views and I appreciate every single one made ...such a good debate. I WAS on the way to bed when I saw this and I did want to respond, but it will be early tomorrow before I can get back here so I thought I'd weigh in now.
Why do you say self important?
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Well it is said those who don't pay attention to history are condemned to repeat it but I have never really been convinced of the truth of that! Lots of us have know lots of history surely, but nothing much changes. Logically, knowing the past should inform future actions I agree but I disagree that it does. (We can't just say Al Quaeda leaders are ignorant of history, we don't know.)
I do think S. and his father are strong. Strong characters, not necessarily admirable ones.
You could equally well say S. was ruthless..determined to succeed whatever it took. He wasn't cheating from fear. Or, I don't understand him that way.
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That is funny Lol that "Al Quaeda leaders are ignorant of history, we don't know." could be just as we are ignorant of Middle Eastern History. ;)
I doubt we could name 5 of the biggest and therefore, most influential tribes and yet, there are hundreds of them and the Middle East is a tribal society with a history that is rich from the Ottoman Empire back the Mesopotamia - I would guess they know as much about western history and in particular US history as we know about the history of Al-Qaeda much less the history of the Middle East.
Now that would be a fascinating study wouldn't it - to learn more about the tribes of the Middle East and which tribal groups are included in Al-Qaeda - I only learned recently that the Taliban were originally young fundamental religious seminarians and our media gave them another identity.
And most enlightening to me is the issue of tribal purity - that the economics of several nations in the Middle east is set up so that most investments in oil, land development, and trade is tribal and the proceeds from these investments are shared among those within the tribe and so if you marry outside the tribe not only do you loose your piece of the pie but all your family is denied the profits that even goes as far as police who can recognize, often by the headscarf, if you are a member of a tribe and therefore allowed to picnic in certain parks or go to certain beaches.
I wonder how selective were the Romans that is taught by Mr. Hundert and our own Ginny who helps a number of seniors not only learn their Latin but have won many a Latin contest in the past few years.
Didn't you have to take Latin in high School Dana or were you later - we had to have 4 years of Latin and 3 years of either French, Spanish or German in order to Graduate - I found Latin to be a challenge and ended up in Summer school after both Sophomore year and Junior year in order to pass. Second year Latin was reading the Punic Wars - no toga's though ;)
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BellaMarie, that's a good point about what Barbara put in here on the short story...it all comes back to Mr.Hundert as Narrator...we did ask earlier if we thought he was a reliable Narrator....you didn't think so .....I'm wondering what everybody thinks today?
Could he be telling it as he sees it? I'm wondering if he sees it as somebody else would describe it. I guess that's true of anything and anybody.
Barb, and Dana, that's a good point! I don't know how much history Al Qaeda knows. Weren't they the ones machine gunning down the Buddha statues? I definitely see in that action, by that particular group of people calling themselves Al Quaeda disregard and disrespect for history that's not theirs, and so they wouldn't really have benefited from any lesson of the Sequanians. It didn't pertain to them, so it's unworthy. Seems to be the new mantra today.
Poor Mr. Hundert, he's stuck, he has to battle to defend, even to the Admin, his teaching a subject that a lot of people don't think is relevant. Good point also, Barb, on how selective he is about what OF history he presents. We, for instance, never got past World War I in high school.
Dana, I'm not seeing an instance of strength in either Hiram Bell or Sedgewick which SIRI just spelled correctly, hahaha. (Anybody know what the word Sedgewick means?). Could you point to something that you think is an example of their strength? I think that when you resort to cheating, and in the case of the bully Hiram, bribes, aka let me give you a gift so you'll feel indebted to me and kindly toward me, then to me, you're admitting that you can't do it otherwise.
OK to close out our week of discussion of theme, we've got a great list of themes here. Have we left one out? Which one do you all think is the overarching theme of this story that moves everything else? Why? Here's a good one: if somebody asked you what the story is about, what would you say? (Dana, I'm really enjoying having you in this book discussion. I think this is the first one you've participated in, is it? I've not been doing them so I couldn't know. If so I wish you'd do it again because you're making good points, and it's a lot of fun.)
Topic du Jour:
We've got a great list of themes here. Which one do you all think is the overarching theme of this story that moves everything else? Why? Here's a good one: if somebody asked you what the story is about, what would you say?
Back tonight. :)
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I think this item from the surname database has the best info on the name origins of Sedgewick I've seen so far.
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Sedgwick
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I see self survival/self serving as yet another theme in this story. You have the principal saying leave it alone or lose your job to Mr. H., so the school which means Mr. Woodbridge saves the school's image meaning his own self image, then Mr. H., is making decisions to save his job and self image. Sedgewick holding a mock competition to launch a Senatorial campaign, using Mr. H. for his self purpose to enhance his own self image, and there is Deepak, who does in fact go along with the cheating, to win the contest and boosts his own self image. Senator Bell, who Mr. H., seems to think got elected by other means than deserving to him, threatens Mr. H. in order to maintain his self image. Oh and let us not forget Mr. Ellerby who back stabbed Mr. H., so he could become headmaster, hence self serving. All of these characters showed their lack or morals and poor judgement, to maintain their own self image/survival.
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Frybabe, That is an interesting link.
This unusual and interesting surname, of Anglo-Saxon origin, is locational from places so called in Cumberland and Sussex. The derivation of Sedgwick in Cumberland is from the Old Norse "siggi" or Olde English pre 7th Century "sicg", both meaning victory,
Do you suppose there is a hidden message in using this particular name for the student in this story? Sedgewick meaning "victory", is it coincidental Canin chose this name with this meaning? Is Sedgewick victorious?
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That's an interesting question, re the theme, nothing immediately comes to mind, but then I go back to the title "The Palace Thief" and I think that has to be the theme. The palace is the school and the thieves are numerous.
But the author says the theme has to do with the power of a quiet life, the power of a man being able to make a change with his heart, as opposed to have to be rich......I really don't get that at all, and why call it The Palace Thief. If that's what it's about,(and he should know!) then I don't understand the title at all.
Thanks for your kind words, Ginny. You chose a curiously gripping story I must say.
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Wow - yes, Self-serving - interesting to me is I've been reading some about the earmarks to ID Narcissism and that is one of the earmarks - self-importance and using others for self-serving ends - hmm are we really reading about secondary characters being narcissistic I wonder.
Yes, Victory Frybabe, and then isn't there an another listed - a grass that is used to thatch roofs which we call sword grass - that would also be telling in that sword grass grows a bit long and is sharp so that pulling it you cut your hand - I would never have guessed Sedgewick's name had an English origin but there it is.
Dana that is a dilemma isn't it - what is showing strength - influence, crowd pleasing, winning the race, as the Bells and Charles Ebberly or the quiet who hopes to instill an appreciation for history and the art of the written word handed down through the ages - This concept of quiet is for many the sign of strength rather than the concept of striving - the message being when you come from integrity than you do not have to prove anything or push back to have a superior position - there are so many quotes that serve this concept - here are a few.
Solitude is strength - to depend upon the presence of a crowd is weakness. - Te Ching
One who will not accept solitude, stillness and quiet recurring moments is caught up in the wilderness of addiction; far removed from the original state of 'being' and 'awareness'. This is dis-ease. - T.F.Hodge
Strength does not come from winning. Your struggles develop your strength. When you go through hardships and decide not to surrender, that is strength. - Mahatma Gandhi
My quiet, calm introvert energy is a strength, and it is perfect just the way it is. - William Shakespeare
Quiet people have the loudest minds - Stephen Hawking
Integrity is the lifeblood of democracy. Deceit is a poison in its veins. - Edward Kennedy
In quietness and confidence shall be your strength (Isaiah 30:15)
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Love the points here today!
Thank you Frybabe!! I was struggling with the "wick" part, I guess I was thinking of sedge as it pertains to the west here, apparently not. I am surprised, too, Barbara, to find it's Anglo Saxon.
Bellamarie, I like those themes, and will put them in the two headings, thank you! and there is Deepak, who does in fact go along with the cheating I personally don't see Deepak with anything to be ashamed of, Mr. Hunderdt said he shot him a look...of what? Perhaps he thought what are you doing asking Nahhunte? I'm not seeing Deepak as any collaborator in any scheme to cheat. I could be wrong, of course. I don't see his complicit behavior nor his cheating, himself. I am not sure what he could have done caught up in this maelstrom. Or epic battle.
This was really good, I thought: Do you suppose there is a hidden message in using this particular name for the student in this story?
I've wondered that myself. Sedgewick meaning "victory", is it coincidental Canin chose this name with this meaning? Is Sedgewick victorious?
That's a REALLY good question !!! I guess it would depend on one's conception of "victorious." I would say definitely not. What would the rest of you say?
Dana, the power of a man being able to make a change with his heart. That fits in with what I think the title means, too. Such an enigma.
Dana, You chose a curiously gripping story I must say. It IS, isn't it? And would you believe I didn't realize it at the time I suggested it? I knew I liked it. hahahaa I think the comments have really helped focus it here, for me.
Barbara, lovely quotes on integrity and strength and quiet.
Here are a couple of questions from other websites, since this thing is now in the Common Core 10th grade curriculum among other things.. it would be interesting to hear the student's opinions, wouldn't it?
Of all the wrong things Mr. Hundert does in the story, which should he feel most guilty for? Why?
I like that one. You have to think about it.
Consider the battle imagery in the story. What is compared to a battle? The battles in this story are fought for what goals and with what weapons? Do the things being fought for and weapons used in fighting change as the story progresses?
That's another good one. Then there's the Caesar constant references, I need to go back and mark them.
But let's look (in addition to those topics) at Mr. Ellerby. What do you make of him? What's with the breathlessness when he comes to see Mr. Hundert?
Were you surprised when he did what he did? Why or why not?
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heading
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Wow am I ever impressed this story is in the 10th grade curriculum - wonderful - and great questions - more than I want to get into tonight but tomorrow I will give it stir
However, asking if Sedgewick is Victorious - and that I think is based in how you define victory -
If we are looking for victory to be based in integrity with a democratic or lassie faire roll-out that allows the financial supporters and voters to 'not' be influenced by the good times rolling provided by Sedgewick's attempt to influence them a certain way than, he is not victorious.
However, if it is just the power game of using Mr. H as an opening to his persuasive speech built on top of handsomely wining and dining and treating like long lost friends these potential financial supporter to his campaign then yes, he was victorious.
And he successfully one ups Mr. H. again, so that there is no loud public announcement of his chicanery - another victory.
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The Palace Thief. I'm with Dana, when she says, 'I don't understand the title at all.' But I think I am beginning to see a light at the end of the tunnel. It's Mr Hundert who has been robbed, and he does say about Sedgewick that 'Virtue had no place in the palaces he had known.' p196
'I was naive to think...' 'Why was I surprised?' p195 and 196 Sedgewick has just told his former schoomates what he wants to do for his country and his intention to run for the senate. Mr Hundert has become disillusioned, and yet there was a time, forty years earlier, when he had seen the promise in the boy.
Here I get into trouble. Was it in the book? Or the movie? The class is going to read Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. 'Sedgewick', said the teacher, 'you read the part of Brutus. The noblest Roman of them all.' And Sedgewick shows he has learned the lessons of history. 'They should have killed Antony along with Caesar.' Why? 'He was their nemesis later.'
The battle in the story? For Mr Hundert I think it is the battle between past and present.
Ginny, I like your question about Al Qaeda and the history in the Buddha statues. How could they see any 'history' in the statues. They were still very much a part of their battle with the infidels. I think.
Bellamarie, welcome back. Who has told us more of, 'what's the story about?'
My question. What's the difference between a toga and a gun, when you're teaching a history lesson? The answer: A toga puts the action in ancient Rome. A gun, in this case, in Civil War America. One should know about both.
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I see Sedgewick victorious in his games he is playing with Mr. H., because he has gotten Mr. H., to make choices that go against the grain of his character, something that is important to Mr. H., and something he so desperately wants to think he can help these young men build while in his class. Where I do not see Sedgewick victorious is in his own character, as he becomes a man. He likes playing with other people's lives, he knows what he wants and goes after it by any means, and we all have seen cheating and deceit, are some of his means to get there. I've never been a believer in the old cliche, " The ends justifies the means."
The saying is a maxim from consequentialism, a school of thought notably advocated by Niccolo Machiavelli. Earlier uses come from the Greek playwright Sophocles and the Roman poet Ovid:
"The Greek playwright Sophocles wrote in Electra (c 409 B.C.), 'The end excuses any evil,' a thought later rendered by the Roman poet Ovid as 'The result justifies the deed' in 'Heroides' (c. 10 B.C.)." From "Wise Words and Wives' Tales: The Origins, Meanings and Time-Honored Wisdom of Proverbs and Folk Sayings Olde and New" by Stuart Flexner and Doris Flexner (Avon Books, New York, 1993)."
However, I would attribute its "origin" to Machiavelli, as he developed an entire school of thought (consequentialism) from the saying.
Source(s):
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequenti...
The origin of this quote is attributed to Prince Machiavelli. His thought was that anything can be done no matter what the consequences may be for the end result will be justified, the method used to attain it is of no consequence. More information may be found In Machiavelli, The student Prince. he is known to have said, "The prince must be the lion, but he must also know how to play the fox."
Source(s):
The Studen Prince.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100308164633AAo5fo3
Oh how Sedgewick the lion, was able to play Mr. H., the fox, seeing his victory each time. But in doing so he was losing as well. I think when you harm another person, you harm yourself as well.
Mr. H., sees in the end he was never going to mold Sedgewick, he already was on a path to not caring much about his character, which most likely came from seeing how his father operated in life. The apple does not fall far from the tree. I think Mr. H., had to take solace in knowing he at least gave it a shot, when he had the opportunity.
I've given a lot of thought about the title "The Palace Thief" and have had a very difficult time trying to make heads or tails of it's meaning to the story. I'm thinking Sedgwick's character and integrity, represents the Palace, (as in your body is your castle)and he (the thief). robbed himself of being a better person, and robbed Mr. H., of possibly helping him become a better person, or as Mr. H., saw it, "mold his character."
Ginny, it will be a nice change to switch gears, and look at Mr. Ellerby.
Jonathan and Dana, I think we are on the same thought process, as far as trying to understand the title. The only problem, is tomorrow is another day, which could bring a new light to this twister of a story. :o
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My favorite quote in the book, I have to say is:
"A man's character is his character." Mr. Hundert pg. 205
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Wow Bellamarie - lots of fabulous thoughts - who would have guessed or at least I was not aware of the straight line from Heroides to Sophocles and Ovid to Machiavelli - fascinating - and for me a lesson in how we read something with our own views on life because after your bringing us this slant of justification for any behavior when I saw some of the quotes Plato included that were from the speech by Socrates that said something to the affect - that evil is as a result of ignorance and the other that I have been memorizing - "an evil act is always with the thought that it will bring some good or benefit" - certainly that could fit "the end justifies the means"
Amazing how the line between a compassionate view of what someone says and does compared to a manipulative calculated view is razor thin.
And that analogy of the lion and the fox is really spot on isn't it - the bluster of a lion and the slyness of a fox - the huge presence of a lion and the slight muscled body of a quick fox. Interesting also is that a fox lives in a den, hidden and is protective of those in the den where as the lion lives abroad and just about ignores the pride except for his needs. Very interesting -
And then to top it off your concept of the Palace is easy to see - an interior slant... hmm. a step further, I wonder if we all have our 'Palace' that we thieve from when we do not live up to our sense of integrity. So many great ideas in this post - thanks - really - thanks.
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Ginny, I should have added information about "wick". It is Anglo-Saxon and means town or dwelling. It may alsoi have originated from the Latin "vicus", which is a neighborhood or administrative division.
Jonathan, your comment about togas vs guns reminds me of the pen vs the sword proverb which I just looked up. I was surprised to find that it was coined by Edward Bulwer-Lytton when he wrote his play, Richelieu; Or the Conspiracy. So, in the end, the pen (the news media) did in S. Bell's bid for the White House.
Bellamarie, Machiavelli is yet another voice (The Prince) sitting in my TBR pile for a few years.
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I see fear as one of the themes in this story. In the beginning.....When describing Sedgwick's background Mr. H tells us how Hyram Bell used fear to get elected. Page 156 "....after his father had been delivered to office on the shoulders of southern patricians frightened by unionization of steel and mine workers." Interestingly Sedgewick also uses fear to get elected at the end of the story. Unlike his father who was at one with the southern aristocrats, Sedgwick had to court the miners. Page 203: "He won that election not in small part because he managed to convince those miners that he was one of them."
Back to the beginning. Page 159: "From the first day, Sedgwick Bell was a boor and bully....." According to Mr. H he was also a natural leader and and organized the boys to participate in his antics. At that age a boy would be afraid not to go along with Sedgwick.
On Page 161 we get a glimpse of Sedgwick's relationship with his father when Mr. H told him he was going to meet with the senator. "His gaze faltered. I'm going to try harder, sir, from now on." And at the end on Page 195 ".....I watched confusion and then a flicker of panic's the face of Sedgwick Bell. He stood haltingly. How clear it was to me that the corruption in his character had always arisen from fear." Sedgwick, it seems, was always trying to please his father. Out of fear of not being loved, noticed, good enough, accepted? Remember the scene when Sedgwick lost the Mr. Julius Caesar contest and his father abruptly got up and left with his mother trailing after him. What child would not feel fear by these actions.
On to Mr. Hundert. He is riddled with fear. Knowing he has to call Sedgwick's father on Page 161 "....my hands trembled as I dialed his office...."On arriving at the senator's office on Page 162: "I was frightened but determined....." When told by Mr. Woodbridge to ignore the cheating or lose his job, Mr. Hundert reacts from fear. He goes along with his headmaster. Mr. Hundert fails to confront the senator about Sedgwick's cheating. He seems to fear authority figures. What happened to him in his childhood? Later on in the story we see that fear has caused his isolation, "My boys were passing once again into the world without me." Page 186. He hadn't planned for retirement, was too afraid to think that he might not always be at St. Benedict's. Therefore Mr. Hundert was afraid not to take the good sum of money offered to him by Sedgwick to conduct a repeat performance of Mr. Julius Caesar Day. First the father, Hyram, gives him a gun and then Sedgwick gives him money. And Mr. Hundert is just too afraid to stand up for himself and say NO. Fear of conviction? Once again he fails to out Sedgwick with his elaborate cheating scheme. Is he afraid of losing the money promised him? Page 198 sums it up. Sedgwick says "And I see that you have not changed either."
But wait. At the end Mr. Hundert did speak even if it was without conviction! For those of you who have not looked it up Hundert means one-hundred. Does that mean it took Mr Hundert lots of toys before he wriggled out of his canon of fear and finally spoke up?
As to the title, The Palace Thief, I think "palace" refers to a man or a civilization and the "thief" is time. It all ties in to "Ozymandias", Shutruk-Nahhunte and Mr. Hundert's retirement.
Although I've tried to defend "fear" as a theme, I'm not sure if that is THE theme. (I'm a gemini, I can change my mind. Haha.)
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One more thing. Could we have some comments on the last sentence in the story? "Nonetheless, it was startling, every now and then when I looked over at the sunlight falling across his bowed head, to see that Deepak Mehta, the quietest of my boys, was now an old man."
Mr. Hundert is, maybe, eight or nine years older than Deepak. All those years of teaching his boys "to understand their own insignificance before the sand of time", does he not realize that the sand of time have caught up with him too or does he realize this and is astounded by it?
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Another thought. The palace could represent Sedgwick, molded and shaped by his father. The thief is also his father who took away any integrity Sedgwick may have had. I think I've had too much coffee!
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Barb,
I wonder if we all have our 'Palace' that we thieve from when we do not live up to our sense of integrity.
Indeed we do!
Halcyon, I'm a gemini, I can change my mind. Haha
I am Leo, the Lion....ugh I better stay away from foxes! I change my mind constantly, maybe I was meant to be a Gemini.
Frybabe, Isn't it interesting how this book may inspire you to get to reading, "The Prince", I'm thinking it would spark my interest, even though I had never heard of it til now.
Jonathan asks, What's the difference between a toga and a gun, when you're teaching a history lesson?
In this particular story Senator Bell uses the gun as a bribe, while young Sedgewick uses the toga to mock the boys. Both are used as a means to gain some form of control.
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Each of us is a palace and time robs us of everything. Time as the thief! Yes, there's much in the story to support that.
'Mr. H., sees in the end he was never going to mold Sedgewick....' Right on, Bellamarie.
And that suggests another theme: Mr Hundert's Revenge.
Instead of molding Sedgewick's character, Mr Hundert is forced into frustrating his pupil's ambitions, whether it's winning the prize or winning the presidency. And the end justified Mr Hundert's improvised means. Then, as an old man, the pupil is remembered as a 'boor and a bully.'
Doesn't Deepak Mehta, as the 'old man' serve as a foil to the successful, vibrant Sedgewick, who just keeps going from success to success?
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MAN, you miss a half hour of this discussion and you're so far behind you have no hope of responding to everybody and I don't think I will try, love the ideas here, back this evening with a couple of comments on them. For now:
Yes I think the Palace IS symbolic and I am loving all the different takes. I don't see the one I think it is, but I'm loving what you think it is, and I look forward to comparing them in the last days of the discussion. In fact, I think we need to get up a list of them in the heading as they occur so we can keep all of the different ones in front of us and have a good old gabfest about each one.
You all do realize the author himself uses the word "palace" in the book? It's plural there. IS he pointing toward his own reason for the title? If so I don't agree with it, but I think some of you will.
OH and a personal note: I'm going to be traveling tomorrow some distance to my in-laws for my MIL's 95 birthday and reunion, and will be back Monday night. The connection there is almost non existent. I will try to get a signal but if you don't see me, carry on exactly as you are now and we'll all be the richer for it. :)
I'll be back tonight, each of you have made wonderful points I want to think about!
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I'm a Leo too, but frequently change my mind.
Frybabe, if you ever do read The Prince, it won't take you long. My ancient paperback (cover price 35 cents) has 35 pages of introduction and 100 pages of actual text, and the style is clear and straightforward, with a kind of rhythm to his arguments. His examples are from the labyrinthine Italian Renaissance factional politics of his time, but you don't have to understand who's who to get his points.
The book is a manual on how to get and keep power, and I don't think it ever specifically says the end justifies the means, but he assumes you'll use whatever means you need to. He does warn you not to be more evil than you have to, though. It's an outlier among his political writings. I haven't read the others, but evidently they are somewhat more moral.
He was a poet and playwright, too. I've read one of his plays, Mandragola, a bawdy comedy.
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Good grief the whole discussion crossed an ocean of thoughts while I was writing.
Yes, fear seems to be at the bottom of so much of these characters behavior - Halcyon that was quite an effort - lots of time to pull all that out and type out not only your thoughts but the quotes - what a gift of time and effort you have given to us -
I needed and thought maybe y'all might want to refresh yourself as well on how to find the theme in Literature.
http://www.learner.org/interactives/literature/read/theme2.html
Fear certainly plays its part, doesn't it - seems to me wasn't it Dana who said something about fear - need to go back and look. It fits as a tool to manipulate control as Bellamarie points out. And control is a weapon to gain and maintain power. Sounds like the ankle bone is connected to the leg bone. Wasn't it you Halcyon who suggested power as a theme. Those three, fear, control and power sure appear to me to be connected - Ha, I can even see a male lion roaring to set a tone of fear in order to control and maintain his position of power.
Is it the only time Mr. H. stands up publicly to face down a fear tactic when he justifies teaching Roman History as Charles Ebberly attempted to persuade the new curriculum to exclude this class taught by Mr. H. - He made an attempt to get his message across to Hyman but does not get the job done. Also, the first go round of confronting the cheating he does it quietly after Mr. Woodbridge lets him know his job is at stake. I'm thinking it is the only time he speaks up and defends his turf.
I have seen Mr. H. as an artist whose medium is his love of language, with his quotes and elevating the words of Shutruck-Nahhunte above the door - keeping the tablet hung that was a term project by Stimson - his ability to see relevance in the past which is like a painter or musician's expression of art also built on the past. I loved the sentence during the battle to keep history in the curriculum, "Its words flowed as though unbidden from my tongue, and when I finished, I knew that I had won."
He uses the words as his weapon to fight the battle of keeping history, the word of man, alive at St. Benedict's. Reminds me of the Dark Ages when Monks were keeping alive the written word by copying Bibles and the work of other historical authors.
Seeing Mr. H. as an artist puts his life in perspective - Artists are not usually in the middle of political debate even when they make a statement with their art - Their funding is dependent on the wealth builders, patrons and benefactors. Few artists are elevated into acknowledged places of honor and wealth but even when they do reach a status of honor and wealth they still do not have the power of world leaders like those who meet in Davos every year along with the 1500 business leaders.
And so when money is at stake, as it became at St. Benedicts the power that controls who is hired and who is retired is in the hands of the administrators not in the hands of an artist regardless the value of the art. We see that choice played out today as nearly all art has been removed or downgraded in schools with budget constraint as justification. Today, History is taught but not the beauty of the word or reading from books that keep alive the words from an anthology of classic works.
And so, part of the battle to include history in the curriculum I see as the battle between the arts and those studies that are directly related to building a financial or politically lucrative career. Mr. H. had success keeping history and the beauty of the word alive and well. He faced his fear of speaking and his fear of feeling he was inadequate to win a debate and won in a battle few artists win unless they can show huge profits with their art.
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Jonathan, "Each of us is a palace and time robs us of everything."
Oh this is so true. Time is like a thief in the dark. It's the one thing we are not able to control in life. We can not stop time, we can not slow it down, and we can not forsake it. We can only decide to accept the time we are given, and do the very best with that time. Mr. H., sees Deepak looking old, sees time has passed them by, and sees how little time they all have left.
Yesterday's the past, tomorrow's the future, but today is a gift. That's why it's called the present. Bil Kean
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/topics/topic_time.html#bQW5AgRMAZ49WiHI.99
Ginny, Safe travels and good luck with getting a connection.
PatH., I'm happy to share being a Leo with you.
Barb, and Halcyon, Yes, fear is a nasty monster who rears it's ugly head in all of us. I am reading a book called, "Crossing the Threshold of Hope by His Holiness John Paul II. The first chapter deals with fear, and he repeats many times, "Do not be afraid." One of my favorite songs at Mass is "Be Not Afraid."
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PatH.,
The book is a manual on how to get and keep power, and I don't think it ever specifically says the end justifies the means, but he assumes you'll use whatever means you need to. He does warn you not to be more evil than you have to, though.
I think you could be correct in saying it ever specifically says, "The ends justifies the means."
I found this a bit interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccol%C3%B2_Machiavelli
"Machiaveillianism" is a widely-used negative term to characterize unscrupulous politicians of the sort Machiavelli described in The Prince. The book itself gained enormous notoriety and wide readership because most readers assumed the author was teaching and endorsing evil and immoral behavior. Because of this, the term "Machiavellian" is often associated with deceit, deviousness, ambition, and brutality, although Machiavelli likely only used it as stylistic device to gain the reader's attention for his close analysis of the actual techniques used by rulers.
Well, now I think I could use this description of both Senator Bell, and Sedgewick Bell, especially in their views of politics and means to be successful. So, has our author Canin, much like Niccolo' di Bernardo dei Machiavelli, used this as his technique in this story, The Palace Thief to gain reader's attention as well?
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Just gets better and better in here! We know what the road to hell is paved with, and here it is 10:15 pm and me off at 5 am tomorrow. And I DID want to share this new theory I have! I have got to reluctantly pull the plug here and leave it to you all. I am hoping to see 100 sparkling new ideas when I can next logon.
I have copied every post since yesterday and will read them over and over probably. The Palace Thief is packed, too. I hope to see you all before Monday but if not, carry on! What's the expression, keep calm and carry on? Love that. I need one of those coffee cups with that on on it. Was it something about WWII and England? At any rate, see you when I can...hold the fort!
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This sentence has intrigued me and in light of the recent stare down between Merkel and Tsipras it appears to have legs.
"It is a largely unexplored element of history, of course, and on that has long fascinated me, that a great deal of the arc of nations arises not from intellectual advantage nor social imperatives but from the simple battle of wills among men at tables, such as has just occurred between Charles Ellerby and me."
I am also thinking how often as moms we used the direct unflinching stare especially in public and always if we could catch it in time, just before things got out of hand.
Back to the story - I guess we could say that 'the look or the stare' was ammunition during this battle between Charles Ellerby and Mr. Hundert.
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We're leaving for a trip of the "great parks" out west. Should be fun.
Anyway, before I go, just wanted to say that I think the palace is the school, or the ideal of the school as a place to mould future leaders to behave with integrity, and the thief is anyone in the book who corrupts that high ideal, Hundert, Sedgewick, headmaster, Ellerby, S.'s father.....
Keep calm and carry on was on posters in the UK during the war, but it got a rebirth a few years ago, no idea why!
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How fabulous Dana - seeing the west - ah St. Benedict's the Palace and the characters who do not live to the ideal of the school are the thieves - interesting - need to play with that idea - the more we read and talk the more my concept of the Palace keeps changing - I wonder if that will be what we decide that there is no agreement on the Palace and we all come away from this read with our own insight - we shall see what we shall see - hope you have a grand time on your trip - thanks for giving us so much to chew on as a result of your contributions - this has been a super discussion don't you think... one of our best. It sure brought out a variety of opinions.
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Barb, leading into your paragraph about the stare down, Ellerby asked Mr. H., about the gun and he refused to open the desk drawer. "There's a rumor you keep a pistol in your desk drawer." "Hogwash." "Will you open it for me," he said pointing there. "No, I will not. I have been a dean here for twenty years." "Are you telling me there is no pistol in this house?" He then attempted to stare me down. We had known each other for the good part of both of our lives, however, and the bid withered. At that point, in fact, as his eyes fell in submission to my determined gaze, I believe the headmaster became mine.
Mr. Ellerby reminds me of those type of so called friends, who are nice to you, listen to you, make you think they can be trusted, so you share things with them, thinking it would be in confidence and safe, and then use what you say at an unexpected time to hurt you with the knowledge you provided them with. Mr. H., confided in Ellerby about the whole cheating incident years before.
This entire part that transpired shows that Sedgewick Bell had to have had a hand in Mr. H.'s demise at the school.
After dinner I returned to the assistant headmaster's house in order to plot my course and confer with those I still considered allies, but before I could begin my preparations, there was a knock at the door. Charles Ellerby stood there, red in the cheeks. "May I as you some questions?" he said breathlessly. "It is I would ought to ask them of you" was my answer. He came in without being asked and took a seat at my table. "You've never been married, am I correct, Hundert?"
To this day I wonder how he knew about what he said next, unless Sedgewick Bell had somehow told him the story of my visit to the senator. (pg.180)
Now I see I was doomed the moment I threw that pistol in the water, for that is where I lost my conviction. It was as though Sedgewick Bell had risen, all these years later, to drag me down again.
What does he mean when he says, "drag me down again"? Why so many years later would Sedgewick Bell feel the need to destroy Mr. H.'s chance at the headmaster job, and force him into retirement? What kind of person even goes to such lengths to harm another person? Ellerby had to have shared with the faculty the information he felt damaging to Mr. H., since he states:
Indeed, once the meeting had begun, the older faculty members shrunk back from their previous support of my bid, and the younger ones encircled me as though I were a limping animal. There might as well have been a dagger among the cloaks. By four o'clock that afternoon Charles Ellerby, a fellow antiquarian whose job I had once helped secure, had been named headmaster, and by the end of that month he had asked me to retire.
Sedgewick Bell had to have put this entire thing into motion. He was the first to ever ask about Mr. H., never being married, and he had to know about the gun. Senator Bell warned, or threatened Mr. H., back years ago, his son had told him things about him. Obviously, Sedgewick told Ellerby as well.
What's that old saying, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."
From @Wikiquote (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The...
Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
This has often been attributed to Sun Tzu and sometimes to Niccolò Machiavelli or Petrarch, but there are no published sources yet found which predate its use by "Michael Corleone" in The Godfather Part II (1974), written by Mario Puzo & Francis Ford Coppola: "My father taught me many things here — he taught me in this room. He taught me — keep your friends close but your enemies closer."
The Godfather, wow! Was Sedgewick that powerful?
Hmmmmm....... another mention of Niccolo' Machiavelli. Another coincidence our author Ethan Canin has used yet another possible reference to the Machiavellian style in this story?
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Frybabe and PatH., the talk of The Prince and Machiavelli has peaked my interest. I was able to get the book from my library online. Just have to know more about this, since it seems to be tieing into The Palace Thief in some way. Or at least I am seeing possibly Ethan Canin has used the same Machiavellian style in his writing, as in The Prince. It too is a short story, only 80 pages long if I am correct.
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Perhaps Mr Hundert should have been teaching Machiavelli rather than Greek and Roman republican ideals to the future leaders at St Benedict's.
The Prince I found on my shelf must be the same edition as yours, Pat. The 35 cent Mentor Classic. Why haven't I read it?
'A handbook for those who would acquire or increase their political power.' 'Mussolini selected it as the subject of a thesis for his doctorate.' 'It was Hitler's bedside reading.' 'Lenin and Stalin as well have gone to school to Machiavelli.' From the introduction. It seems one must be ruthless. But that was for Italian rennaissance politis. Surely it hasn't come to that in America.
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Those beautiful parks in the West. Have a good time, Dana.
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Well you have convinced me to get my copy of The Prince down from the shelves and read it keeping in mind while reading this short story by Ethan Canin
Little of the how is really explained in the story is it - how Charles Ellerby knew what he knew - what the faculty knew or not, that had them take sides - that whole scene is really close to the scene where we have the famous line, 'et tu Brutus' -
I saw that scene from Ancient Rome as a power grab, not so much because others had the same gripe with Caesar but they were acting using today's terminology with a 'crowd-source' charge - when we are part of a crowd we tend to go along with the emotions of the crowd and park our logic - and so my thought when I read the take over scene in this, the Palace Thief, the other teachers could smell a coup and wanted to assure themselves they were on the winning side for their future job security.
And so my take was job security has the best of us backing whatever dark horse enters the fray. Almost like those in politics who look to stay loyal to a tyrant but in fact they are only protecting, sometimes their life but at best their economic security the job provides. We are not given the particulars of the scene except the sarcastic, irony of how Mr. Hundert interpreted the scene that he imagined would have been his elevation to head.
He is not as quick to plot this reach, this campaign to take over after the death of Mr. Woodbridge - he even says he was not ready which yes, I have to agree Ellerby must have been plotting this inevitability for a long time.
What we do not know from the story and like a detective trying to piece together backwards from the outcome - how Charles Ellerby learned of the gun - during the days of their intimate friendliness did Mr. H. tell him - or if Sedgewick was the tattler then how does he know of the gift since he and his father were not exactly what we would call close during the years when the gun was gifted to Mr. H. - somehow the news had to travel a trail from Hyram Bell to Charles Ellerby or the only other one that knew of the gift was Mr. H. himself
There is the possibility that Charles Ellerby was a snoop along with being a back stabber. Charles Ellerby does not say the gun that was given to you or the gun from Hyram Bell, he only asks - do you have a pistol - why would he call it a pistol. When Mr. H. was gifted the gun Hyram called it a side arm - more in keeping with the age of the gun and I could see if Hyram passed the story on to his son he would have said he gave that history teacher of yours, Mr. H. an old side arm or according to its age and multiple shot ability, an old revolver.
We do not know the age of the gun but if it was made before Colt was manufacturing hand guns then the word pistol was not used - Colt did make the first small pocket 'pistol' starting in 1855 soon after they opened for business - however, the Colt pistol was army issue during WWI and was used by law enforcement but the gun was not described as a Colt by Hyram, which is the word any gun owner would use.
Since Bell was from the South the side arms used by officers and the calvary were called revolvers - there was a Colt used by both north and south even though Colt Manufacturing was a northern company - this gun was also used during the western campaigns but again it would have been known as either a revolver or simply a Colt, usually followed by it's numbers or name e.g. Colt 45 or Colt MI_#_
And so that says to me neither Mr. H. or Charles Ellerby had any knowledge of guns and if he was passing on something heard from the Bells either Hyram or Sedgewick I think he would pass along word for word and neither of the Bells would call the gun a pistol. The word pistol most often refers to a semi-automatic handgun.
I am also having a difficult time seeing Charles confront Mr. H. with such assuredly if he had reason to think the gun may not be in his possession - for all he knew, if it was a story passed along to him, than Mr. H. could have gotten rid if the gun with no one being the wiser but he confronted with such audacity and I bet knew Mr. H. was lying or in the mind of Charles there was maybe a small fraction of a chance Mr. H. could have gotten rid of the gun but regardless, he could not tip his hand he riffled through Mr. Hundert's personal belongings or he would have really blown his so far successful position, climbing towards being head. And so where Mr. H. in his mind won that encounter in reality he was not a good statistician to realize Charles Ellerby would loose more if he were to persist with his claim.
My take - not right or wrong only how I see Mr. H - my take on him is that he bumbles through life and makes small adjustments where and when he can, winning a few battles but never wins the wars - he knows his history and loves history, even in retirement studying the history of Japan but, he is not a change maker that successfully wins the integrity wars with Sedgewick, his father or with Charles Ellerby.
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Barb, if I ever have a mystery to solve, I am calling on your talents as a sleuth detective! You did some great research on this whole gun, pistol, revolver, firearm. Kudos!!
My bet is that Ellerby knew a gun was in the desk drawer, and you make a very valid point, because Mr. H., had been given this so many years prior, Ellerby is very confident that if he opens the drawer it will be there. So....I lean in the direction Ellerby very recently snooped in that drawer, for whatever reasons, and KNEW without a doubt the gun was there.
I like your take and agree, I see Mr. H - my take on him is that he bumbles through life and makes small adjustments where and when he can, winning a few battles but never wins the wars - he knows his history and loves history, even in retirement studying the history of Japan but, he is not a change maker that successfully wins the integrity wars with Sedgewick, his father or with Charles Ellerby.
Sedgewick, Senator Bell, Woodbridge and Ellerby were in a whole different league than Mr. H., when it came to character and morals. Yes, I was hard on Mr. H., but if I had not read the entire 50 pages, knowing the outcome so early on, I think I could have come to this conclusion I have now, which is, Mr. H., made some mistakes in his actions as to how he took on this challenge with Sedgewick, but I think he took it on hoping to help build his character, which we can all agree he was in need of. Yes, Mr. H., broke rules, and even allowed his own convictions be lost on this one person. But, in the end, I see it as you do Barb, he was bumbling through life, but I believe he always had good intentions and was looking out for his students and St. Benedict's school. He just got caught up in his own webs, he spun. He was no match for the others.
Jonathan, So why does it not surprise me you also have a copy of The Prince on your bookshelf. From the introduction. It seems one must be ruthless. But that was for Italian renaissance politics. Surely it hasn't come to that in America.
Do you say this in jest, Jonathan? I would have to say with a resounding voice, indeed it has come to that in America today, and many years prior.
Dana, enjoy your journey to the west!
Ginny, any connections yet? I feel like the Verizon commercial......"Can you hear me now?" Enjoy your time away, we got ya covered here. :)
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Perhaps he is a bumbler. There is also a charming innocence to Mr Hundert. For years he has dreamed of succeeding Mr Woodbridge as Headmaster. When his chance comes, finally, he's caught up, in his own words, in 'a Byzantine struggle for succession'. Incomprehensible. For which he is totally unprepared. He loses his faith in St Benedict's, although he resolves to make no excuses for St B's (Back to the beginning of the book.) He lacks character and yet wants to mold the character of others. He can't understand himself, but is prepared to judge others.
Barb, your post is a splendid piece of sleuthing and deducing. Too bad that you have such a poor witness in the case. Mr Hundert teaches history, but is such an uncertain witness to history himself. I don't think we can accept as truth Mr Hundert's notion of Sedgewick's relationship with his father. Seeing through what Mr H tells us, I can see a good relationship between father and son. As father, we hear him say, he wants to be the one to mold his son's character. He comes to witness the Mr Caesar contest. Father has a heart-to heart with his son, a talk about his failure, and hears about Mr Hundert's dishonesty and much more.
I'm inclined to think that Mr Bell followed through and got more information about Mr Hundert from faculty at St Benedict's, including Mr Ellerby. The gun may have been mentioned in passing in an exchange about what should be taught in the school. I do believe Mr Hundert does have some things wrong. Perhaps a wife along the way would have influenced his views and his perpectives.
Bellamarie, there may be a lot of hard ball played in American politics, but it's still a great working democracy.
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Barb, what good points you make. Mr. H certainly likes the status quo and only makes changes when absolutely necessary. Again I go back to fear. Is he afraid of change? So, between Bellamarie's post and Barb's is Sedgwick Bell the thief and Mr. H the palace? This is beginning to sound like a game of Clue. Sedgwick Bell with the gun in the palace. Or could it be.........
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Sedgwick Bell with the gun in the palace.
;D ;D
Good detecting, Barb. I agree that Ellerby must have been snooping to be sure of the location of the gun. Hundert isn't even living in the same house he was when it was given to him. I don't think the terminology "sidearm" vs "pistol" matters. A sidearm is any weapon meant to be worn at the side or on a belt, so includes pistols. And I agree neither man seems to know anything about guns. Hundert is lucky he didn't shoot himself in the foot in the process of getting rid of it.
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We certainly go all over the place in these discussions--Machiavelli is a surprise, though. Funny that you and I should have the same paperback, Jonathan. I got a lot of good Mentor classics back then. My copy of Edith Hamilton's Mythology fell apart, though, and had to be replaced.
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Jonathan I agree, even though we may not approve of Senator Bell's methods of how he got successful, and all we really have to go on is the insinuations of Mr. H., and the behavior of Sedgewick, I do think he has a very good, close relationship with his son. Sedgewick decides to follow in his father's footsteps, that is one of the most highest forms of honor a child could give to their parent, as far as I am concerned. Jonathan, it's nice to see someone still has some faith in our politicians and democracy. Me, not so much.
I think we all see the Palace representing many different things. My take was the Palace is each person's character, and they themselves are the thief, because they rob themselves of being the best person possible.
OMG PatH., you totally made me laugh out loud....."Hundert is lucky he didn't shoot himself in the foot in the process of getting rid of it." :)
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Its funny how certain words hit you and send you off on a sleuthing search - having been around guns, the word pistol and the way the gun was described I thought of a dueling pistol and knew that was not right since they are usually single shot front loaded guns and are not called sidearms - since this story was written to depict life in the 1940s the only thing I could think of was guns pre WWI and since Hyram was from West Virgina it had to have been a gun used in the south. The word I knew to describe a sidearm had to be a handgun and it was described as an antique - which, except for some French guns, the guns from the US were usually Colt, Smith and Wesson, Remington and the old Whitney and so hit Google.
But again, it is my views that I wanted satisfied - As to father and son - sounds good - the other aspect is there are many children who decide to repeat in life the efforts of a parent because they think the can do it better - thinking of Bush Sr. versus Jr. In the 50s did we yet have any father/son Congressmen I wonder - another Google
Aha so there are political legacies that go back to John Adams and his son John Quincy Adams - Rep. Rodney P. Frelinghuysen is the sixth generation of Frelinghuysen to represent New Jersey in Congress, dating to 1794. There are the Roosevelts, the Harrisons (William Henry and grandson Benjamin), the La Follettes, the Stevensons and the Cabot Lodges, the Long family from Louisiana, the Tafts from Ohio.
There are later families that became multi-generational elected Congressman and Presidents after the 1940s like the Kennedy's and the Udall's but again, the story was showing likelihood so the story could be believable that depended upon known history before the 1940s. Far more family dynasties than I realized.
An nice site that shows the firsts of families serving -
http://history.house.gov/Institution/Firsts-Milestones/Family-Firsts/
This story does appear as Halcyon suggests to be like a game of Clue - I wonder how many other bits we are glossing over. Interesting how we read with our own views - sounds like Jonathan you are comfortable with the gossip trail that leads to Ellerby's confrontation - where as Pat and I think Bellamarie see that snooping could have been the source of Ellerby's questioning Mr. H.
Back to that gun - after the idea of a dueling pistol came to mind I wonder if that was the symbol of the gifted gun - Hundert and the Bells would be dueling their different set of values and chosen careers for the rest of the story.
I am also wondering if we have impossible values that we use to measure others - I am having a difficult time putting Woodbridge in the same category with Ellerby - Woodbridge had to attract donors and patronize the current donors - that was his job - his job was not to teach anything but to manage the school body of students and teachers and to bring in the dollars needed for the school to exist. I am thinking how we all know when talking to a young child we do not stand over them we get down as close as we can to their level.
I am seeing that is what we do - so that even that aspect of Sedgewick appealing to the workers - yes, a lie about the school he attended - and an exaggerated 'getting on their level' and yes, for many of us we think, if he can lie about something simple like where he attended school than what else will he lie about. But then, as an example of how politicians went after votes sounds like Roosevelt appealing to the common man rather than allowing his wealth to be an issue and how we see Presidents to this day eating where the everyday working person would eat. And the old political 'saw' about showing a candidate coming from a log cabin background.
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Barb,
But then, as an example of how politicians went after votes sounds like Roosevelt appealing to the common man rather than allowing his wealth to be an issue and how we see Presidents to this day eating where the everyday working person would eat. And the old political 'saw' about showing a candidate coming from a log cabin background.
Not to get too far off the beaten path, but I snickered when I read this in your post. I have to share with you that Hillary Clinton, when she began her Scooby Doo van tour to Iowa, after announcing on the internet she was going to run for presidency, stopped at a Chipotle restaurant for lunch in Maumee, Ohio, a suburb of Toledo, which is my hometown. Trying to seem like an everyday person, she walked into the restaurant in large dark sunglasses, and never even spoke to a single person there. We Toledoans thought it was the funniest thing ever, because if she intended to fit in, she managed to not even be recognized. The manager of Chipotle heard on the news she was there, went back and looked at their security camera tape to confirm she ever walked in. Oh the blunders these politicians can make, trying so hard to make others think they are just like us.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3036527/Spotted-CHIPOTLE-Hillary-Clinton-finally-seen-ordering-lunch-minivan-road-trip-Ohio-NO-ONE-recognized-her.html
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now that is a funny :D
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The gun was alleged to have belonged to Robert E. Lee's coachman, so it was of Civil War vintage, though not necessarily a Service weapon. This gives a list of weapons, with pictures underneath.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_in_the_American_Civil_War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_in_the_American_Civil_War)
When we read The Greater Journey, we learned that the South had trouble getting weapons, as most were manufactured in the North. The British Enfield rifles they imported were superior to the Northern ones, but I don't know about the pistols.
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Isn't there a recent biography of FDR, with the subtitle: 'Traitor to His Class?
Do you mean to say that the gun has been loaded all these years? I'm amazed that the gun was such a big secret with Mr Hundert. It's possession and disposal put him into a severe crisis mode.
I'm surprised that he never showed it off to students and colleagues. It was certainly a significant historical souvenir, having belonged to Robert E Lee's coachman. If I remember correctly.
Mr Hundert's world has fallen apart. St Benedict's is not the school it once was. The history he has been teaching has turned into a relic, has become irrelevant. His story has a stocktaking theme. Will he keep soldiering on?
I see there are several new posts while I was composing. I see that you mention the history of the gun, Pat.
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St Benedict's was a school for the privileged. The miners needn't know about that. Richmond High would sound better. But, for Mr Hundert, denying St Benedict's would have been the cruellest cut of all. That was when he decided to go to the tabloids with his information about the cheating schoolboy. 'That school was my life.'
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:D ;) "The history he has been teaching has turned into a relic, has become irrelevant." Like the gun?? ::)
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;D that is even funnier when you think of it - the antique gun being passed along from Hyram to Mr. H - is the message we all become irrelevant and each generation passes along their irrelevancy to the next set of young lions - and even if you do not go out and grab it like Sedgewick you get the gift of irrelevancy handed to you ::)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online: July 7-31
The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/palacethief/Palacethief2.jpg)
"Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
| Topic #3: The Thieves of Integrity/ Plot/ Final Thoughts/ The Palace Thief |
Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
- 1. Do you agree with the author on what the theme of the book is? Why or why not?
- 2. What do you see the climax of the book to be?
------------- Was it the 2nd contest and the Nahhunte?
--------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert stood up to the whole school and got Charles Ellerby elected?
---------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert finally stood UP to the conflicts of the entire book (Sedgewick) and tried to say in front of miners, that is not true?
---------------Is it something else?
- 3. "By some fallen column, by some chaste ruin, the thieves of integrity wait...."
( Hilary Mantel, in Wolf Hall)......
. "Virtue had no place in the palaces he had known.." (page 196).
- What does the title of the book mean?
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Interesting Links:
Annotations for The Palace Thief from Chulalongkorn University (http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~tpuckpan/Canin,%20Ethan-thepalacethief.html) *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.
Discussion Leader: Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
OH golly moses, what a wonderful wonderful job you are doing with this discussion! This is like old times, isn't it? I love it. And for me, it's changed the old "process" we used to stick to like glue and freed it up and opened it up so it's fun for the "leader" again. Just love it.
Love the stuff on the gun. Love the stuff on the redundant. LOVE this one: Will he keep soldiering on? He HAS been a soldier. He has fought a battle. The words battle keep repeating over and over. He's in a fight.
Safe travels, Dana, Dana travels all the time. We surely enjoyed your ideas.
I was struck anew and anew by the Caesar references, they are absolutely everywhere. Think what you like about Brutus and his motivations, Caesar was betrayed. I think something like 20 of the conspirators owed their very lives to his forgiveness and clemency. THIS is why Dante has put them (Brutus and Cassius) in the lowest rung of hell. Where betrayers go.
I want to bring you every quote and reference to Caesar, it's like a drumbeat through the entire piece and then I wonder if you'd help me figure out WHY Caesar is there at all? You will be surprised, I think.
I LOVED Halcyon's take on FEAR as the major theme, so carefully written out! I loved Pat's humor, and it's true, he could very well have shot himself. I think Mr. Ellerby snooped, found the gun, and concocted a story of slander, apparently pretty bad as his former colleagues shrank from him.
I loved Bellamarie's musing about how, if we did not know the ending, we might have seen Mr. Hunderdt differently.
I believe (new theory alert!) we think or thought about Mr. Hunderdt for a reason and it's because the author himself wrote it so you would. I think he manipulated the reader cleverly. I think this is almost poetically written. It reminds me of Caesar's Commentaries. Seems straightforward enough and easy to read, only 50 pages but there's a world underneath he's not saying. It's confusing but boy what a discussion about it.
The PRINCE? Well he referred to a PALACE in connection with Sedgewick. Was Sedgewick the Machiavellian prince? I don't think Mr. Hunderdt was up to it, do you?
I have to find that page again. Jonathan, I think the reading of Shakespeare with Sedgewick as Brutus (another reference to Caesar's assassination and betrayal) was in the movie. I don't see it here. I guess movies have to be even more explicit.
I don't think Mr. Hundert's mentioning his former students who did well is unusual, nor do I think it showed his....arrogance. At all. When you have a student who has gained fame, I think it's possibly normal to mention him when you introduce yourself or casually thereafter so the students may in fact feel inspired or excited about being in the same company of scholars learning the same things. It's a rare university which does not point to its favored sons (and daughters).
Barbara said:
Is it the only time Mr. H. stands up publicly to face down a fear tactic when he justifies teaching Roman History as Charles Ebberly attempted to persuade the new curriculum to exclude this class taught by Mr. H. - He made an attempt to get his message across to Hyman but does not get the job done.
Now isn't that interesting? A battle for what meant the most to him in the world. That, he said, was his proudest moment. But he stood up again about the high school. WAS that the climax? Standing up against Sedgewick Bell, even tho Bell shushed the microphone? Did all the action and all the conflict lead up to that moment? Or do you think there was another moment?
The PLOT in this thing is really multi layered, unlike a lot of short stories. It's different.
When we meet Mr. Hunderdt, what is the conflict that YOU see us presented with?
I'll be baaaack.
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Bellamarie way back there asked a question about would we have thought of the character differently if we had read it in sections rather than all at once?
I thought that was interesting. I have a theory about that.
Question for you guys:
Of how many characters in this book can we say we know their inmost thoughts and feelings?
??
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Ginny, the reason I asked that question, is because I found once I allowed myself to get past the first chapters, where I was frustrated with how Mr. H., treated Sedgewick on the first day, and then proceeded to seeing Sedgewick the adult, I found myself evolving. But since I read the full 50 pages, it seemed as if I was stuck in the beginning. Had we read it broken into sections, I feel I would have been able to move past the first few chapters.
This is my first time ever reading the entire story ahead of the discussion. As you all know, I won't even read ahead in our discussions, so this was new for me.
To answer your question as to how many characters can we say we know their innermost thoughts and feelings, I don't really feel any of them. Mr. H., expressed the school was his life, but he never really shared his personal experiences. He gave us a glimpse, but I feel I never really knew him. All the other characters were not forthcoming either. We get introduced to them, then we lose track of them until the re enactment of the competition decades later. Mr. Ellerby was introduced lightly, and then was brought back at the ending to back stab Mr. H. Everyone for me seemed surface, like a veneer shine that does not allow me to see what is really under the veneer finish.
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Barb,
we all become irrelevant and each generation passes along their irrelevancy to the next set of young lions - and even if you do not go out and grab it like Sedgewick you get the gift of irrelevancy handed to you
Well my heavens, you've done it again! I was just over to my neighbors the other day because she wanted to share with me all these items her mother had left to her when she passed away. There were pictures of her relatives from the early 1900s, china, lead glass crystal bowls, and other items. She had her sister and brothers come and pick out items they wanted, and there was so much left over. She said she was surprised how they weren't really interested in much. I have collector dolls, tea cups & saucers, precious moments, and angel collections, and my hubby has the Heritage Dickens Dept. 56 house collection. Over the years we have invested quite a bit of money in these, and I said to my neighbor how these have so much meaning to us, and it's very possible no one is going to care about them when we pass on, even though they have value. She said that is exactly how she feels.
" irrelevant" now that is a very interesting and sad thought.
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Ginny, Was Sedgewick the Machiavellian prince?
It's a possibility.
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I agree, Bellamarie, we don't know the innermost thoughts and feelings of anyone. All the characters are seen through Hundert's eyes, and either he is one of those people who doesn't analyze others, or he doesn't feel it's important to his story. We see the story from inside Hundert's head, but we still aren't seeing all of what he's like--he's narrowly focussed on one particular part of his life.
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I agree. We are seeing the story through Hundert's eyes and we still haven't decided if he is a reliable narrator. As everyone knows everyone sees things differently. A good example is this group. all the different ideas and opinions. I like Barb's idea of dueling pistols. Am curious if the author even thought of that? I wonder if authors are as deliberate in their wording as we like to think or do they write for the love of writing and let the readers do all the analyzing?
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OH wonderful, Bellamarie, Pat and Halcyon, I love a good debate.
Here's another view: I disagree totally. ALL we are seeing is Mr. Hundert's thoughts. There are some descriptions but almost every page, almost every one IS Mr. Hundert's thoughts, it's almost a stream of consciousness and since he's vacillating personally over the piece, so do our opinions of him.
Here are a few instances, I really can't put them all, they are all there IS:
"Of course I was sorry for this..." (page 156, this is the third set of "thoughts" he's expressed on this page. Which is page 2 in the book. Being "sorry" is a feeling. He's not addressing this to any person in the story, he's telling us his feelings. His inmost thoughts.
"which I hoped would......which I hoped...." on the bottom of the same page. Hope is a feeling, a thought.
"It was apparent that such efforts...I could see that...." These two are on page 3. Here Mr. Hundert is telling US how he perceives things. This is a feeling.
"And I knew the look..." Again what he knows. It's quite easy for a person steeped in Roman history to see what is, in fact, an Indirect Statement in Latin, which concerns feelings, thoughts, perceptions. And the author here is using a sub theme of Roman culture to make quite a few delicious points. If he is telling us what he thinks, we're in his mind.
And we are in no other person's mind in the entire book. There is a reason for this beyond the short story format.
"In retrospect, however, perhaps my strategy was a mistake."160. He's thinking that perhaps he made a mistake. Thinking is getting into his mind.
"I said, sensing his motivation..." Again, same page.
"I admit that the prospect of seeing the man.." page 161, I admit. I concede to myself in my mind.
"I was bewildered, naturally..." I am confused. Confusion is n the mind, he's telling us what' in his mind.
"My heart warmed..." Warm feelings, a feeling again in the mind both of these on page 164.
I quit marking them down, since they are peppered throughout almost every page but at the end I picked them up again because they are so egregious:
"I was wounded, of course...:" page 179. What is feeling wounded but a feeling?
"I lost my advantage by underestimating..." page 179.
"I began to have second thoughts..." How clear can he be we're hearing his thoughts? page 187.
"I felt a headiness...:" page 187.
"I began to fear..." page 186.
"My heart bled for him..." page 194...
Next to last page, the denouement...." Still I wanted desperately..."
If somebody says they wanted desperately, they are telling us their thoughts.
I think that we have BEEN in Mr. Hundert's head since the opening pages right to the end, that's why it seems confusing, he's been confused and vacillating and the author has done this deliberately, I believe, by deliberately making the other characters shadow figures and cardboard by comparison. ONLY Sedgewick has some character development, (provided totally by the author's descriptions), but we never know how he FEELS, we only see what he says. There is a difference.
Can you recall one instance of introspection or feeling, or perception or any other thought in any other character? How Mr.Woodbridge felt or thought before he said something out loud? Do we know what Sedgewick thought or truly felt? Hurt? Angry?
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And of course I have a theory on this. :) My Caesar theory is proving a fascinating exercise, by the way, because the comparison Mr. H makes to Caesar follows the plot arc but stops DEAD when Mr. H loses his "conviction." THIS is some kind of book.
Bellamarie, on the 50 pages at once? Have we ever had a book club discussion of 10 pages each week? I wish I had thought of it, to tell you the truth, it would have been a great slow summer journey.
Here's my theory. In Literary Criticism (aka Analysis), the tenet is, you can formulate any theory you want, so long as you can back it up with proof from the story, quotes.
Barbara put in a nice bit about short stories. I'd like to also be a bit analytical and look at the plot lines. Just a simplistic view. We have a plot, the action begins with a conflict: Sedgewick Bell, threatening Mr. Hundert's status quo. The action rises and falls, there IS a sub plot of betrayal with Mr Hunderdt's career, the poor guy is fighting as he says continually, battles on many fronts. In my last reading this morning I was astounded at the battle imagery and quotes. The action rises in suspense to the second contest...will or won't Mr. H reveal all? HE chooses a more passive aggressive way to stop him.
The climax of the plot: the point to which all the other action has built:
1. Was it the 2nd contest and the Nahhunte?
2. Was it the moment Mr. H stood up to the whole school and got Charles Ellerby elected?
3. Was it the moment Mr. H finally stood UP to the conflicts of the entire book (Sedgewick) and tried to say in front of miners, that is not true?
4. Is it something else I missed?
I can't decide. Unlike a lot of other short stories, this one is ambitious. I have kept saying since the start that this story is extremely cleverly written. Here's my theory on what the author has done:
I don't believe the author ever lets us into Sedgwick Bell's mind, does he? He hits the caricature button: the bully: the overweening headmaster; the friend who betrays. I think the author is doing a lot of interesting manipulation of the reader in this book by the way he wrote it and people have fallen for it ....he's made almost caricatures.... he's fleshed this one out, but it's ambiguous, it's an enigma.
He's fleshed that one over there out not so much, in fact he's just cardboard, he's the cardboard bully, he hits all of our, not the other students's, buttons. It's interesting to me that the ones who are not fleshed out are the worst in my opinion in the book.
So if you want to look at this is a theory, he's fleshed out the one that he intends as a hero and he's ambiguous because he's got a tragic flaw. The others are not fleshed out because they are the villains.
Too simplistic a theory?
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Ginny, We are seeing Hundert's thoughts but I am wondering if they were feelings as the events happened or was he writing as he wished he would have thought at the time. He's had years to reflect. If you tell a lie to yourself long enough it may become truth.
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If you tell yourself a lie yesterday or ten years ago and you believe it, are we not still talking about what you think? Lie or not? Now or then? You're going to be an expert in Indirect Statement when we get there. :)
Back tonight.
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Ginny, Your theory is possible "IF" the reader saw Sedgewick as the bully, and Mr. H., as the hero, as you feel the author's intent is.
I was never able to see Sedgewick as a bully, and I have never found a hero in this story.
Early on, I saw Sedgewick differently than everyone else.
I kept seeing Sedgewick as the young, new, cocky student, coming into a class midway, feeling less confident because he is new, and not so very intelligent, so he took on the, let's be funny and disrupt the class approach. Mr. H., was not sensitive to this young boy, and instead began obsessed with the challenges he posed. To be clear now, in case others misunderstood me earlier, never did I see Mr. H., sexually inappropriate in thought or action with his so called, "obsession." It was never about that.
All the main characters were flawed, (Mr. H., Sedgewick, Senator Bell, Mr. Ellerby, Mr. Woodbridge, and even Deepak,)so I am beginning to think this story is about the challenges in life we experience from an early age on, all the way to our last days seeing our time limited, days gone by, and how we lived them. Good or bad, successful or not, secluded or outgoing, intelligent or not, intending to cheat or brought into it unknowingly, choosing to lie or tell the truth, trustworthy or not trustworthy, etc., etc., we are indeed responsible for our own words, decision and actions in life. We ultimately must reap what we sow, and in the end, time will run out, we will come to the end of our life no matter who we are, and when we look back over the years, we may or may not be content with how we lived out those years. Life is not perfect, nobody's perfect, our imperfections can either help us or hurt us in life, we are the deciding factor of which it will be.
For me personally, this reader did not see any heroes in this story, only everyday people who overcame their own personal struggles and weaknesses, and went on with life in spite of them.
Is it an oversight on my part, or am I correct in saying, never once throughout this entire story did Mr. H., ever express a time of real happiness? He seemed a victim throughout to me, a sad man who came to the end of his life with nothing but his memories to sustain him. He was a very sad character to me.
Halcyon we were posting at the same time.
Halcyon, We are seeing Hundert's thoughts but I am wondering if they were feelings as the events happened or was he writing as he wished he would have thought at the time. He's had years to reflect. If you tell a lie to yourself long enough it may become truth.
WOW! What a powerful observation. Everything in the story is through the eyes of a man who is near the end of his life. Just how accurate are our feelings and memory at this point in our lives? For me, I need help from my sisters and friends to remember things from my past years, and even then when they remind me, we don't always agree, feel, or see it the same way. We the readers have ONLY Mr. H.'s memories in this story. So I have to question the accuracy, on the fact memory does not always serve us well in our older age.
Imagine if Sedgwick Bell told this story, how different would it be?
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Ginny, Indirect statements haha.
Bellamarie, I like the idea of telling the story through Sedgwick's eyes. Or Ellerby's.
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:) I'm going to play Devil's Advocate again.
Everything in the story is through the eyes of a man who is near the end of his life. Just how accurate are our feelings and memory at this point in our lives? For me, I need help from my sisters and friends to remember things from my past years, and even then when they remind me, we don't always agree, feel, or see it the same way.
Hello? He's 68 years old? He walks 3 miles a day. I can't speak for anybody else but I'm a good bit older than that and I do hope I'm not "near the end of [my own] life." hahahaha . Of course one never knows, does one? In the midst of life.. etc.
We the readers have ONLY Mr. H.'s memories in this story. So I have to question the accuracy, on the fact memory does not always serve us well in our older age.
Being in Mr Hundert's head, being privy to his feelings has absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy or age of those feelings? It's how he or remembers feeling, period. Right or wrong, accurate or not.
It's a mechanical technique, a literary device, done by the author to present the story, and that's all it is.
Bellamarie, I am using the words "hero," and "villain" facetiously. In fact since Mr. Hundert is familiar with ancient cultures, he knows, as does the author, that a Hero has lots of flaws. Ancient heroes were flawed people. (We're the only ones who insist we are perfect). I will amend my description of Sedgewick to "troubled child and man."
Since the author himself has stated who the....person..... is in the story he finds admirable (I need to put the heading back up in the first post here, we may have lost sight of this), here it is again:
Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
I think here we can see who the hero, in the classical sense, is to Dr. Canin, flawed or not.
The thing is, do YOU all, the readers, agree with him?
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| Topic #3: The Thieves of Integrity/ Plot/ Final Thoughts/ The Palace Thief |
Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
- 1. Do you agree with the author on what the theme of the book is? Why or why not?
- 2. What do you see the climax of the book to be?
------------- Was it the 2nd contest and the Nahhunte?
--------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert stood up to the whole school and got Charles Ellerby elected?
---------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert finally stood UP to the conflicts of the entire book (Sedgewick) and tried to say in front of miners, that is not true?
---------------Is it something else?
- 3. "By some fallen column, by some chaste ruin, the thieves of integrity wait...."
( Hilary Mantel, in Wolf Hall)......
. "Virtue had no place in the palaces he had known.." (page 196).
- What does the title of the book mean?
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Like a bunch of observers giving an account to the police of a road accident - we all see this from a different perspective - we have all had enough differences in our lives and our experiences with teachers as well as, various classmates, some who go on to live fuller lives than others.
And so I would be shocked if we came down to one viewpoint about any of these characters, what the story has accomplished or even to agree on what is a thought versus a feeling.
E.g. to me when Mr. H. says he hopes does not suggest a feeling of yearning that the word hope can convey - to me it sounds like - If I, Mr. H. had my druthers... - which is giving a nod to, if I could control the event, another, the outcome, whatever...
The same to 'know a look' - which is saying I have a gut reaction based on my past experiences - reminds me of the game popular in the early 70s of showing photos of folks and we guessed based on appearance and facial arrangement what was going on with the person. All it did was prove to us we make judgments about others by sight based on our own experience or interpretation. Plus the verb is to know - regardless if he felt warm towards, leery of, delighted with, suspicious of, Mr. H. 'knew' the look which altered his opinion of what he was looking at based on his own history.
My take is we would not have a story that was without opinion as if a non-biased report - we have a character telling a story that is based on the backstory of this character - the story is told by him. His version of what happened that would come out of what he understood was his job and how he performed that job given his assessment of the behavior of others and like all of us, through the screen of our past experiences, cultural association, education, social skills, emotional balance and sophistication.
I think back to Dana's comment about the arrogance of anyone thinking they should mold another - regardless 'molding' seems to still be a feature of some schools its really today not even seen as a job for a parent - parent classes for over 20 years are about how to guide, offer opportunity, decision making together etc. Where as when mold was the way, that meant, do all you can to make someone believe and behave a certain way - with the word 'make' being the operative word.
We make things - we influence people - many of us were educated during the 'make students into' time in education and is why we have memories of punishment or coercion - the 'power over' model - I will make you, hone you, pound in a level of competence, sweetly introduce that you are expected to enjoy or at least learn from etc. with no concern for a student's personal learning style or life experiences. The narcissistic "when you are in MY classroom you will..." was rampant.
Today we know differently and realize teaching and learning is a team effort that starts with the two year old when, rather than 'make' them do something they are given two choices e.g. it is time for you nap do you want to take such and such stuffed animal or the quilt grandma made - do you want milk when you wake up or grape juice and so a classroom continues to be a place where the experience of students outside the classroom becomes part of the group learning references.
Compared to teachers from the 'make' or 'mold' school of thought this link I think is a good one that lists the attitude and work of a teacher today.
http://www.edutopia.org/discussion/heart-teaching-what-it-means-be-great-teacher
We know that Mr. H. had good intentions and was a good teacher using a different older standard to measure a good teacher - and yes, it is a stretch for us to place ourselves in those classroom years and for others of us it was an easy recognition but regardless, we were hearing about the experience of Mr. Hundert and how he taught with the mindset of a 'make' or 'mold' directive in his job - he was not successful regardless the reasons; regardless the support or lack of, regardless the different expectations of the others in the story - his directive was to mold his students to live with a certain value system and he did not do it with at least this one student. And we see evidence that he did not always live up to his own values regardless the because.
And so he was reminiscing on his career efforts - when anyone has a failure we are not comfortable believing it was all our fault and part of our storytelling is to make sure we see the fault in the other or the system that allowed you, with the best of intentions, to fail. He does a fairly adequate job of admitting his own mistakes but, he does not go deep into unraveling his expectations for certain intimacies or how he projected expectation for the behavior of others, based on protocol, tradition, shyness, his own limited view on relationships in or out of the classroom.
In their old age he does not develop a more intimate friendship with Deepak than he did with Sedgewick or Hyram those many years ago - we only have his thoughts on the friendship he developed with Charles Ellerby so that we really do not know, more than a few personal opinions, how strong and informal was the friendship - if it was anything like the friendship he maintained with Deepak, who was probably only about 10 years younger, then, the friendship with Charles may not have been any more intimate and his expectation for loyalty may not have been realistic or at minimum based on a code of honor that was a leftover from the days when relationships were a surface encounter.
Bottom line, I see this story as a tell all - a sorta confession that also suggests Mr. Hundert's good opinion of himself and how he performed his job that included a failing attempt to mold the character of student who became a public figure as well as, pointing fingers as part of the cause of this failure.
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What are the readers saying? It's just as Halcyon reminds us. The author leaves it all to the reader in allowing Mr Hundert to tell his story without the benefit or intrusion of some omniscient author outguessing him. The teacher tells his story. Not all of it, just the game-changing crises. St Benedict's was my life, he tells us. He loved to teach. Greek and Roman history. And he does for forty years. How painful it must have been to hear the senator's son who bullied him all those yerrs ago, now a vote-chasing politician, telling the miners that he taught at Richmond High! How painful when he's asked to leave St Benedict's, or put out to pasture, by the new Headmaster.
It is sad. But wait a minute. His parting words are that he has found a new interest. If Rome has become irrelevant, how about Japan. And he can already see his students dressed in their kimonos fit for a shogun. When his former bullying student has presidential ambitions his former teacher feels otherwise. That kid will never be president, and off he goes to the tabloids. I can't change my mind about that.
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Ginny, Hello? He's 68 years old? He walks 3 miles a day. I can't speak for anybody else but I'm a good bit older than that and I do hope I'm not "near the end of [my own] life." hahahaha . Of course one never knows, does one? In the midst of life.. etc.
Oh but now you have made the same mistake everyone has pointed out to me many times throughout the book...You have brought Mr. H., being 68 yrs. old back in the 1940's, as if he were in the here and now, 2015.
We all know for certain a 68 yr old male today, due to better health, technology, medical advances, and knowledge of better care and food choices, has an increased life expectancy than in the 1940's. A 68 yr old male in the 40's would be over their life expectancy. You also must factor in he is male, so you can not compare Mr. H., to yourself, since you are a female, and your life expectancy merely on your sex would be higher.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005148.html
According to this graph: in 1940 a white male's life expectancy was the age of 62. Today it is 76 yrs old for a white male, and 81 for a woman.
So, Mr. H., would have had less cognitive skills and memory at his age, especially being six years over his life expectancy. Hmmmmm....makes me wonder if Ethan Canin the author even gave this any consideration when he wrote this story and choosing Mr. H.'s age, and saying he walks 3 miles a day. For back then, that would make him like super man. :o
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So, Jonathan, you are convinced Mr. H. is responsible for Sedgewick not becoming president because he went to the tabloids and ratted out Sedgewick? Hmmmm...would cheating and lying as a student, or even as an adult, about where he went to school, be a deal breaker? That's a bit of a stretch for me.
If in fact that was the outcome, then it would make Mr. H., an even more sadder man than I ever imagined, because he just could not get out of the way, and let Sedgewick alone. Wouldn't his actions show he was driven by revenge, considering he was as much a cheat and liar as Sedgewick?
Hmmmm....so yet one more possible way to see the title "The Palace Thief" In your theory, he Presidency could be the Palace (as in White House), and Mr. Hundert, the thief, by going to the tabloids with whatever you feel he had to prevent Sedgewick from winning the presidency. Now there is food for thought!
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A 68 yr old male in the 40's would be over their life expectancy. You also must factor in he is male, so you can not compare Mr. H., to yourself, since you are a female, and your life expectancy merely on your sex would be higher.
He's not in the 40's any longer. He was in his 20's when he began. He taught 41 years. It's not the 40's. 68 is not a death sentence for all men. :) My poor husband, I had no idea. I'll tell him when he gets in from fishing.
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OOooops.....Okay, so if he were in his 20's in the 40's that means it was late 1970s-80s and the life expectancy then was 70, it still makes my argument he would have less cognitive skills, memory, and walking 3 miles a day sounds a bit much, nor can he be compared to yourself (Ginny), your husband, or any white male in 2015. In all fairness, I did not say it was a "death sentence" at the age of 68, I said he would be nearing his end of life, which in his time era would be very true, by the statistics chart.
I consider myself pretty active, athletic, and sharp in mind at the age of 63 today, but I can definitely say, I am not so sharp when I try to go back and remember things 40 yrs ago. Like I said, I need help from others who were there, and even then I see it, and feel differently about it than others. Either way, it is only Mr. H.'s narrative, so the accuracy is as good as his memory.
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OK what is a Palace -
A hall, a temple, a royal court, a large a stately mansion, a castle (which means it has to have a room for armament), a seat of authority.
The palace symbolizes a human mind.
Poe uses the windows in the palace to symbolize two human eyes,
The Crystal Palace became a symbol of modernity and technology,
In Beowulf the building is like a palace,
"Runs in blood down Palace walls."men that die for rulers who do not care in William Blake’s “London”.
"I cleared me ground for a Palace such as a King should build." Kipling,
"In the greenest of our valleys / By good angels tenanted, / Once a fair and stately palace—" again Poe.
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I am seeing many ways the Palace could be symbolizing an aspect of this story - from St. Benedict's being a Palace, to the characters inner selves being their Palace to even our own inner self being a Palace - a seat of power - where, like Poe's windows as eyes, with our eyes we read and discern what we read based on what we know and what we more recently learn.
Is each individual character operating from their own Palace and are the others or the expectations the thief or are they themselves the thief of their own best intentions - I am beginning to think as the story we found many meanings hidden among simple wordings so too the Palace may be something different to each of us or to each part of the story with thieves abounding.
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I have had two theories as to what the title is referencing to.
!. I said early on I saw each individual as the Palace (their body/mind) and I saw themselves as the thief, robbing themselves of their character, morals and from becoming the best they could be.
2. After reading Jonathan's last post, I could see the Presidency (White House) as being the Palace, and Mr. Hundert the thief, robbing Sedgewick from winning the presidency by going to the tabloids, assuming he did, to ruin his chances, by ratting him out as a liar, cheater etc.
I even wonder if the author himself had only one Palace, and one thief in mind, when he wrote this story. Wouldn't it be so interesting to have him here to pick his mind?
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I think the author would be over the moon to find a group who feel so strongly that his character is so real and feel so passionately about it that they could argue over the details. I can understand why nobody wants to admit the author's hand in this (even tho he created the character and put him in the story the way he did): it's a tribute to his skill as an author.
And maybe YOUR skill as book discussants.
I like the quote Hilary Mantel used: "By some fallen column, by some chaste ruin, the thieves of integrity wait...."
I like that because it references Ozymandias, and Nahhunte, which are themes of the book, too. And they unfortunately presaged Mr. Hundert's fall.
I think the Palace is a man's Integrity. Something he builds up, a shining crystal tower of idealism. The thieves are the same as in the Mantel quote: the things and people that come along and little by little steal your integrity: greed, envy, self promotion, everything you have mentioned. Those are, to me, the thieves that matter, the ones who steal your integrity little by little. YOU have to allow them to do that, though, and paradoxically it's their corruption of you that makes it the worst.
I doubt anybody will agree with this one either, but to me that's what matters in this story: integrity and how we allow ourselves to lose it.
It's very interesting to me that while this is a book, and is entirely fiction, I have seen it acted out in real life. It's fascinating how life imitates art.
I totally identify with Mr. Hundert in so many aspects of his life. I always have. The good ones. His love of teaching, his love of the subject, how it's his life, how much it means. I think he's a good man who got caught in too many jaws at once, which he couldn't handle, and in his trying TO handle them, made mistakes. We all make mistakes.
Does he redeem himself? The author thinks he did. Has he been happy in the book? Definitely. Is he happy now? Should he be? I think so. I think he should forgive himself and reach back out to Deepak and build a new friendship, he needs one, I think.
Super super short story, and one which proves a short story can be wonderfully engaging, and complex. We can all have our different theories about what the title means: there are no right or wrong answers here (except my husband is a lot older than 68. :)_)
Such fun this has been. Any last thoughts?
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Ginny, After your earlier post I spent the afternoon rethinking the meaning of the title. Palaces became the students under Mr. Hundert's tutelage. As their teacher he sought to instill in them, through the lessons of history, discipline and integrity. The thief is the world outside the classroom. Sons following in their father's footsteps or fulfilling the dreams families had for them certainly meant these former students had to forgo some of the lessons learned in the classroom. Virtue was systematically chipped away to obtain success. Similar to what you came up with although I still like the idea of time being the thief and man or civilization being the palace. Page 157: It is critical for any man of import to understand his own insignificance before the sands of time, and this is what my classroom always showed my boys.
After Sedgwick announces his candidacy Mr. Hundert resolved to avoid him, went to his room and looked out the window. Page 197: Standing at the glass, I felt like the spurned sovereign in the castle tower, looking down from his balcony onto the procession of the false potentate.
Mr. Hundert did speak at the miners' rally and with this act he finally found peace within himself. He points out that one does not alter history without conviction but it was enough for him to know that he did speak. What a difference between this Mr. Hundert and the one looking over the balcony at the false potentate. Acceptance at long last.
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Ginny, I like your theory, it is very similar to my #1 theory, which I came to early on, and Barb's last post. Great minds think alike!
By all statistics your hubby should be a lot older than 68 today, and still enjoying his fishing, and other activities. Life is great, and we should live it to the fullest at every age. I hear people say, "Sixty is the new forty, and eighty is the new sixty." I sure like that!
I felt much sadness throughout the story, and especially at the end. Mr. H., may have gotten his self satisfaction, by speaking in the end even though his mic was off, he may have very well have gone to the tabloids, but I saw the motive of his actions more out of revenge, which can be a double edge sword, you not only hurt the person you are aiming for, but you also hurt yourself as well.
Confucius said, "Before you embark on the journey of revenge, dig two graves."
The greatness of a book discussion for me, is when we have many different ways we all see it. Much like a prism, each way you look at it, you see yet another color. I have a feeling this story is going to stay with us a good long time, and I can see us weeks from now, maybe even months later thinking of a new Palace Thief!
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Halcyon, how beautifully reasoned that was. I loved this: Page 197: Standing at the glass, I felt like the spurned sovereign in the castle tower, looking down from his balcony onto the procession of the false potentate.
The prince and the palace. I love the idea of time being the thief.
In fact there has not been an idea here about what the title meant that I did not think was possible, plausible, and good.
I loved this, that Barbara said: Is each individual character operating from their own Palace and are the others or the expectations the thief or are they themselves the thief of their own best intentions - I am beginning to think as the story we found many meanings hidden among simple wordings so too the Palace may be something different to each of us or to each part of the story with thieves abounding.
Now THAT was fabulous. A person himself the thief of his own best intentions. Love it.
I love this, too, Bellamarie: . Much like a prism, each way you look at it, you see yet another color. I have a feeling this story is going to stay with us a good long time, and I can see us weeks from now, maybe even months later thinking of a new Palace Thief!
I really like that perspective. That's a wonderful way to put it. It is a wonderful choice for a book discussion, just LOOK at all the different takes on the palace, the thief, and the thoughtful commentary on all things offered here, all of which really add something to our overall experience of the story.
Really one for the Books. I will also be thinking of it for a long time. :)
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Last night I read Batorsag and Szerelem. I loved it and recommend you all read it. I thought the story was familiar so I googled the title and, indeed, there is a movie adapted from the story called Beautiful Ohio starring William Hurt and Rita Wilson. Now I must watch that again.
Ginny, Thank you for leading this discussion. It was such fun. I'm beginning to realize I like short story and poetry discussions rather than very long books. What's next? Anybody know?
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Is it over? I thought we had another 10 days.
Minor point: we've all been assuming Hundert called the reporters on Sedgewick, but that actually seems unlikely. The only damaging thing Hundert had about S. was his cheating in school--hardly enough for a tabloid exposé. And Hundert says he's writing this to get it on the record, implying he hadn't told anybody before.
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Frankly I did not like any of them - given my druthers I would never have met up with any of them by choice after I was introduced to them - the biggest issue I had with all of them is they were full of opinions and answers but did not show a curiosity for life or each other that usually shows itself in having lots of questions - as things happened they simply turned to what they knew or imagined - boring and self-important - however, like them or not it was a fabulous story that I really enjoyed not only pulling it apart but hearing all of us pull it apart. I cannot remember having more fun and going deeper into a story in quite awhile.
A story that showed ordinary people finding their place and way among folks who all had their different priorities - it was fascinating and then to deduce what was the view point of the one telling the story versus imagining how the others were viewing the happenings - it was a window into the simple life we deal with daily and just assume we are all in it together with a common set of values - the values may be agreed upon as ideal but it appears there is a push and tug to weave ourselves around those values when we are committed to an achievement that involves others, from the lofty level of state and national politics to the classroom. Yep, that is what I saw, an exercise in community development and the jocking for and of power within the community.
Ginny I too have to echo - great discussion - a simple story that was dynamite and your questions pushed us to really pull this story apart - good show...thanks.
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PatH., I actually never bought the theory Mr. H., ratted Sedgewick out, because it would be one cheater telling on another cheater. Like you, I felt he did not have enough on Sedgewick, other than cheating in the competitions, and lying about his high school, which I can't imagine being enough to keep him from winning the presidency. Since Jonathan felt it was a possibility, I wanted to explore the "what "IF" he did theory. It was a bit fun, because it brought me to the Palace being the White House, and Mr. H. being the thief.
Barb, I am with you, there was not one of the characters I really cared for. As a teacher myself, I could not warm up to Mr. H., or Sedgewick, they both were immature and reactionary. The other characters were background, to fill the story. But oh what a story it was!
Ginny, you were a great moderator, and devil's advocate. You posed so many questions, I don't think we could possibly have answered all of them, but we sure did our best. No stone unturned, it's the SeniorLearn motto!
I thank all of you for your great insights, and yes, this one challenged me more than any other book I can remember. Until the next discussion.
Ciao for now~
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PatH: 'Minor point: we've all been assuming Hundert called the reporters on Sedgewick, but that actually seems unlikely. The only damaging thing Hundert had about S. was his cheating in school--hardly enough for a tabloid exposé. And Hundert says he's writing this to get it on the record, implying he hadn't told anybody before.'
Pat, your minor point, is a major problem for me. Too many things fall into place if I see Mr Hundert going to the tabloids with his information. That word 'vengeful' tabloids convinced me. What would the tabloids have to be vengeful about. Mr Hundert, on the other hand, has been robbed of his character and integrity. His career lies in ruins. His students have let him down. St Benedicts has let him down.
'I tell this story not for my honor....' But it is. And that is the first thing he tells us in his story. It's not Sedgewick's cheating that bothers Mr Hundert...sorry, I'm called to dinner...more, much more, later.
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Thank you Halcyon, how kind of you. That book also looks really good. I also love poetry and short stories and I'm glad that we stuck our collective necks out and tried one. It was a very rewarding experience, for me.
Pat, perhaps the "leading" part is over, and we're to the dessert, and now we can talk on if we like into the wee hours, and have a lovely confab about it, just enjoy the conversation. I did not think that Mr. Hundert notified the tabloids at all. Or what he might have said. But I know Jonathan did. My theory concerned a reporter overhearing Mr. H say that's not right in front of the miners, and doing his own sleuthing.
Even tho that's not something a "tabloid" would likely want to get hold of, lying to pander to a certain society would certainly be, in a political year, in my estimation.
Thank you Bellamarie, I always have more questions than answers, about anything.
I tell this story not for my honor....' But it is. And that is the first thing he tells us in his story. That's something we actually didn't talk about and Jonathan has picked up on it. I am looking forward to seeing what Jonathan thinks IS the reason he's told the story. Since he's saying it's not for this and not for that, maybe what he says it IS for is the opposite, too.
I keep wondering who he is telling it to. And why he is telling it now. That is sort of still up in the air, to me.
Halcyon, yes, the next discussion will begin August 10 and Barbara has a rare surprise treat in store! Stay tuned!
"I cannot remember having more fun and going deeper into a story in quite awhile. " Now THERE is an epitaph! Thank you, Barbara,and all of you for your great points. It HAS been fun, hasn't it? I really have enjoyed this.
Everybody feel free to bring up anything.
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What a treat, a dessert to top the discussion off with! Now this is a first that I can remember. I feel like the Olson twins.....We're pulling an overnighter!! Okay, so how many of you even know who the Olson twins are to relate to that movie & song. Hint..Mary Kate & Ashley, and they were my 20 yr old granddaughter's favorite to watch from the time she was 2 yrs old and still will come over and sit and watch the VHS tape collection I bought for her.
What fun the pressure is off! :) ;) :D ;D >:( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(
I have always wanted to do that! Ginny did say we could talk about anything!!
Okay on a more serious note, I for one am waiting with bated breath to hear what is up Jonathan's sleeve. He almost had me convinced that sly ole Mr. H., could have prevented Sedgewick from winning the presidency with his observations. I'm open for more book quotes to show it's a possibility. On assumption or speculation, it doesn't carry weight with me.
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This has been a wonderful discussion of an extraordinary story. Thanks, Ginny, et.al. I am looking forward to Barb's surprise.
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Thank you, Frybabe, that's very kind of you.
Bellamarie, oh yes, I have heard of Kate and Ashley...is it Olson? (sp) Isn't one of them going around with Sarkozy? (sp) But in their adult (somewhat zombie looking) years is how I know them. They are both very attractive and just lately it seems they have started to quit with the awful make up and look more human.
Another thing that interested me about The Palace Thief is how we as readers projected ourselves ONTO the characters. There's something that either clicks with us or does not, when we read a book, it can be positive or negative.
Something in our past that hits a button: of recognition or disgust or bad or good experience. Sometimes I wonder why we read at all. Do we keep looking for ourselves or hoping to learn something about ourselves? Mr. Hundert's life is about as far removed in 2015 from most of us that you can get, yet there seem to be some markers, some identifying markers that we think we know him from.
I think it's fascinating: reading, and discussing books. There are only two books in our entire history I have despised and actually threw in the trash (and I've missed a lot of book discussions lately). One was The Liar's Club.. by Mary Karr, I think her name was. I have no idea why that hit so many buttons with me, but it did. Threw it in the trash. She followed that with Cherry, which should be no surprise. They are both memoirs. The first one is about how she lied her way thru her life to date and thought she was exceeding clever. I am in no doubt what the second is about, are you?
The other was that perfectly awful New Zealand book about the abuse of a child. One of the members at the time staunchly defended the author and it was like a nightmare from start to finish. I recall the remark made "one of our members (that was me) has said she won't read books about child abuse or incest: can you imagine?" Yes, just imagine such narrow mindedness!
Garbage in, Garbage out.
I burned that one. Yes I did, and it was too good for it.
I wonder what one thing in this book that we have not mentioned here yet resonated the most with you, good or bad?
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Ginny, Yes the Olson twins have gone through some troubling years growing up into adults. They began their acting career when they were just a baby as Michelle on Full House, and went right into making their various movies, so it did not surprise me when Mary-Kate began dressing very strange and got overly thin into her teens/adulthood. Her sister/twin Ashley was very concerned for her. I think she was having an identity crisis, and possibly drugs. They seem to be doing okay now.
Another thing that interested me about The Palace Thief is how we as readers projected ourselves ONTO the characters. There's something that either clicks with us or does not, when we read a book, it can be positive or negative.
I think you said it best, I do believe when people read a book they find themselves trying to identify with one of the characters in the story, no matter what the story may be about. It is our human nature to want to see ourselves, or to relate at least to something or someone. So this reminded me of looking up "realistic fiction" while reading this story, and I think it would fit in this genre.
Short stories and novels that make you feel like you are getting to know real people dealing with believable situations can be considered realistic fiction. Their plots are the opposite of those involving magical beings and imagined creatures, but they can excite your mind just as easily by connecting you to relatable characters and conflicts that seem so plausible.
What is Realistic Fiction?
Realistic fiction is a genre consisting of stories that could have actually occurred to people or animals in a believable setting. These stories resemble real life, and fictional characters within these stories react similarly to real people.
Stories that are classified as realistic fiction have plots that highlight social or personal events or issues that mirror contemporary life, such as falling in love, marriage, finding a job, divorce, alcoholism, etc. They depict our world and our society.
Characteristics of Realistic Fiction
A quick way to classify a story or novel as realistic fiction is to identify the following characteristics within that literary work.
1. Realistic fiction stories tend to take place in the present or recent past.
2. Characters are involved in events that could happen.
3. Characters live in places that could be or are real.
4. The characters seem like real people with real issues solved in a realistic way. (So say goodbye to stories containing vampires, werewolves, sorcerers, dragons, zombies, etc.)
5. The events portrayed in realistic fiction conjure questions that a reader could face in his/her life.
http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-realistic-fiction-definition-characteristics-examples.html
I fear my granddaughter has inherited my trait of the character relating, because she has read and gone to everyone of her books made into movies, and tells me how she relates to such and such. ;)
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I don't know if this was mentioned. Most of us in this group seem to have children, grands, siblings husbands, wives, friends or a church family. Mr. H had none of these. At times I bury myself in a book and leave my family behind. I don't want to think of my husband's recent surgery, my son's upcoming wedding, my sister-in-law's search for the perfect dress or my niece's problems with her mother-in-law. I'm sure you all understand what I'm saying. Along with the sometime annoying traits of all family come joy and laughter. Mr. H has none of this. He depends on his boys to visit once in a while. I'm not sure what I think of this. He has chosen this life. It seems like he's in neutral, no ups or downs. I wonder if he would be a good poker player?
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I am with you Halcyon on escaping into my books, and leaving everything else behind for a few hours.
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11755688_10207572118644443_8987706708794320521_n.jpg?oh=bbbee9369894b764ebd0bfd71e1e9d00&oe=56597760)
I think I could have seen Mr. H., a much less sadder man had he had family or friends.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online: July 7-31
The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/palacethief/Palacethief2.jpg)
"Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
| Topic #3: The Thieves of Integrity/ Plot/ Final Thoughts/ The Palace Thief |
Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
- 1. Do you agree with the author on what the theme of the book is? Why or why not?
- 2. What do you see the climax of the book to be?
------------- Was it the 2nd contest and the Nahhunte?
--------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert stood up to the whole school and got Charles Ellerby elected?
---------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert finally stood UP to the conflicts of the entire book (Sedgewick) and tried to say in front of miners, that is not true?
---------------Is it something else?
- 3. "By some fallen column, by some chaste ruin, the thieves of integrity wait...."
( Hilary Mantel, in Wolf Hall)......
. "Virtue had no place in the palaces he had known.." (page 196).
- What does the title of the book mean?
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Interesting Links:
Annotations for The Palace Thief from Chulalongkorn University (http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~tpuckpan/Canin,%20Ethan-thepalacethief.html) *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.
Discussion Leader: Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
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Halcyon, that's an important point that hasn't yet been stressed. Mr. H is missing many of the things that make life rich and meaningful. All he has is his love of history, and of teaching it. I've known people like this. With some of them it seems like a poverty of spirit. With others it doesn't. They're "living not widely but deeply" and the richness of whatever they concentrate on makes up for what they miss.
Which is Mr. Hundert?
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And I'm with both of you about escaping into books. You come out refreshed and stronger.
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oh lordy I remember that one from New Zealand - about the first people - forget what they were called and basically how they continued their traditions in a modern society - something about a young girls who rides a huge fish out to sea and is a god to the culture or something like that - it was awful and I think the reason for the support was because some of our readers at the time included 2 from New Zealand and if think it was 4 from Australia who had a better understanding and connection with the culture.
I'm also remembering in the very early years something about Stone and the gal who I admired so from Chicago either led it or was a huge contributer - her name alludes me something like Joyce Staple or Stutdz or I do not know - anyhow the story had to do with a dwarf who symbolized being different -
Just could not take the image of a dwarf and that the dwarf was the symbol of differences - somehow that idea turned my tummy - could be because my memory pictures of that Italian movie after WWII in Italy - do not even remember the name of it either but the movie had strange characters, one being a dwarf which was a common addition in so many European stories -
I was going to look into it and found something about the dwarfs finding security and shelter being the king's fools - anyhow, that whole issue just turned me off - looking back I bet it was because of the powerless nature and need to be dependent on abusive treatment that was the life of a dwarf. Still gives me the chills.
Wow four posts while I was writing - I guess I am not a big Realistic Novel fan Bellamarie - to me it is boring to look at the intricacies of a life written as the Sturm und Drang, of life most often as a tragicomedy or tragic irony or even as a tragic flaw - grrr reminds me of those who would 'chop down a tree' because it has a crooked trunk or its shade is in the 'wrong' place or its in the way of a new highway or or or and just maybe it ends with a savior protecting the tree or the wayward tree showing its value.
Also reminds me of this rush to judge and find fault with folks similar to the old and now recurring habit of using tweets etc. to gossip about people. I am still remembering when it was considered to read a magazine filled with Hollywood gossip at best a 'sin' or, geared to the gossiping habits of those who seldom read books - ah so, like Mr. H. the life as I knew it, that was taught in my St. Benedict's is a relic of history without veneration by current authors and readers, who no longer see the uncomfortable characteristics of characters as those very characteristics needed to tell the story but rather as the story itself. If characteristics are for me too loathsome I just set the book aside. Never have burned one or even trashed one ;) :D love it...
Ha what an observation if he would be a good poker player - and yes, we do have our ongoing family joys and stresses - and frankly over the years seeing some of these very stresses and even joys played out in various novels and seeing how they contributed to the over all was so calming for me - it helped me see how it all fits even if it is very very uncomfortable at times.
Yes, Mr. H. reminds me of that old song about being a paper doll - it does seem like his life is limited to as Pat says, to history and teaching but then my take is, the author is focusing on one aspect of Mr. H. without the concept of a bio that let us know if he had family or why he chose to teach at St. Benedict's or what he did to celebrate Christmas or even if he attended Mass at St. Benedict's - he seems to be very one or ;) two dimensional.
Reminds me of a book I had as a child called something like - 'And What Happened Then' or maybe 'What happened Ever After' - it was a continuation of many of our favorite childhood stories that simply ended with - 'and they lived happily ever after.' - very un-satisfying ending to a child with lots of imagination. Looks like we need a - 'And What Happened Then' or really a, 'What Started Before and During' for our Mr. H.
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Barb,
I guess I am not a big Realistic Novel fan Bellamarie - to me it is boring to look at the intricacies of a life written as the Sturm und Drang, of life most often as a tragicomedy or tragic irony or even as a tragic flaw - grrr reminds me of those who would 'chop down a tree' because it has a crooked trunk or its shade is in the 'wrong' place or its in the way of a new highway or or or and just maybe it ends with a savior protecting the tree or the wayward tree showing its value.
Hahahaha.....this made me laugh out loud. I think I am not thinking of books with that particular plot in mind. I am not into the tragic comedy or tragic irony, or even tragic flaw either. My granddaughter seems to keep choosing those type of books and they are usually made into movies, like The Fault In Our Stars, Safe Haven, If I Stay, Gone Girl, and many others.
On this list this link provides, there are quite a few I have found interesting and enjoyed, like To Kill A Mockingbird, and The Help.
http://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/realistic-fiction
I can't wait to read, Go Set A Watchman by Harper Lee.
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Only ordered it last week and it came on Monday but have not had time to sit long enough to read - I am looking forward to reading a grown up Scout - When you get your copy and start reading let me know what you think - I have heard mixed reviews. I think Mary Page said it brought to life a typical older white southern male outlook in the 1960s where as it seems some would have preferred him being a firebrand liberal for Civil Rights that probably would be in keeping with the 90's.
Yes, my daughter-in-law also gobbles up books and a couple of authors I found that bridged the light lunch type story to at least a supper although not dinner are Patrick Taylor who does an Irish Doctor series and really good storyteller is David Liss who puts his characters in interesting times in history with a plot that features not only some little known aspect of the circumstances but does include conflicting attitudes by various groups at the time.
One I remember is actually telling the tale of the beginning of what today we know as the Stock Market. This buying and selling of interests in businesses started in the Pubs of Britain. Another was how the Banks in the US were started and the difference in support between Hamilton and Jackson. All his books are not about money - his books include a variety of historical issues that are at the core of the story.
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Don't hold your breath, Bellamarie. I have nothing up my sleeve. But I never imagined that the life of teacher could be so turbulent. His telling has been a bit devious, but he does make a thriller out of it. It leaves me wanting to know more about the ups and downs of teaching. And I have found two on my shelf. The Rector of Justin, by Louis Auchincloss, and Ravelstein, by Saul Bellow, loosely based on the life of Allan Bloom, teacher and author of The Closing of the American Mind. Remember that one? Mr Hundert's story has a hint of that.
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Everybody should read Up The Down Staircase, the woman who wrote it, I think, just died. I thought when I read it years ago it was the most accurate (and hilarious) thing about teaching I had ever read. I wonder how it would look now.
Back anon. :)
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That's a good point Halcyon made about Mr. Hundert's life: no family, one friend who betrays him and apparently no need to reach out to the one person who keeps coming to see him.
Is he an introvert? This certainly seems like introverted behavior. Introverts are happy alone. Large crowds actually make them almost ill compared with people who are extroverts who actually (or so a psychologist told me at one of those Intructor meetings) get energy FROM a group. Imagine!
So we can see that the school, he says, is his life.
I thought Pat made two great points and a good question, too:
Mr. H is missing many of the things that make life rich and meaningful. All he has is his love of history, and of teaching it. I've known people like this. With some of them it seems like a poverty of spirit. With others it doesn't
How can you tell which is which, Pat? What are the symptoms of the poverty of spirit? What a good question you asked here:
Which is Mr. Hundert?
I think that the history he taught and his life in teaching meant the world to him. I think he found his niche and loved it. How might we determine "the poverty of spirit?"
But I never imagined that the life of teacher could be so turbulent
That's interesting. Why not? Is it his life that's so turbulent or something else? What is turbulent in Mr. Hundert's life, I wonder.
One interesting thing about...well, tomorrow's another day! :)
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Never did read the Closing of the American Mind but it is now on my TBR list - sounds like a winner, of course one man's opinion but what'a man, an icon to literature.
Halcyon and everyone, the August selection was announced in the Library and sprinkled in a few other discussions - it will be in preparation for our 20th year reading as a group - the first discussion "Snow Falling on Cedars" was March 1996. The title of the August discussion, that will start on August 10 and continue for two weeks is...
"Our Wild Days; Creating the Good Life on SeniorLearn".
Over the 14 days we will engage in a conversation of memories, with questions that prompt our opinions about reading as a group, and our thoughts about certain books. No book needs to be borrowed or purchased. We will be sharing our memories of together, reading books.
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Jonathan, Yes, Mr. H., could be seen as devious in his narrating the story, PatH., his teaching was much more turbulent than my years of teaching computer classes in a private Catholic school for fifteen yrs., and still teaching Religion classes on Wed. nights, ready to begin in August. Oh how the summer flies by....
Ginny, I may have to check out Up the Down Staircase. Was that made into a movie?
Barb, "Our Wild Days" sounds like a delightful August discussion! I came in June 2006, which seems so much longer with the group than actual. Can't wait!
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Ginny, this story really got to me. What an unhappy, disillusioned man at the end of a long, dedicated teaching life. Behold the academic Ozymandias. That's my life, I can hear him saying. Hiding behind his talk of honor and vengeance. Along the way...put down by the senator, betrayed by a friend, failure as a teacher, nothing, or less, to show for all his effort, feeling 'spurned' as he puts it...I like the guy, putting his all into it, and having time pass him by... It's been a moving experience hearing him tell about it.
What a great discussion!!! All in the company of geat minds, especially when they disagree.
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failure as a teacher, nothing, or less, to show for all his effort
Do you think so, Jonathan? I am wondering if all those years of success which he notes are erased by his current confession? Remember his quote from the beginning?
"The worth of a life is not determined by a single failure or a solitary success."---
I wonder what that single failure was? We hadn't talked about when he says "my first mistake..." and if we think that WAS his first mistake.
I wonder if he HAS been a failure, and if HE thinks so? What do you think?
He can't have been much of a failure if his former students wanted to see him?
Bellamarie, yes, I think it was made into a movie, it's very old. At the time it was hysterically funny it might not be now. The book is better than the movie.
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What a great discussion!!! All in the company of great minds, especially when they disagree.
I agree, just like old times. I really get so much out of being able to talk about a book, particularly one like this, with the people assembled here, it adds so much to the experience. Thanks to you all!! (Still interested in the many points brought up here in the last few posts, too. I keep puzzling over Pat's statements and wanting to know how we can tell the poverty of spirit from its opposite. That was a very interesting post.)
What does poverty of spirit look like? If Mr. Hundert had poverty of spirit and his teaching were ALL he had in the world, then would he be adjusting as well as he is?
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I wonder if it is 'we' who decide what a poverty of spirit resembles - what behavior we see as the signs of a poverty of spirit - I am thinking we are unaware that we use our values to determine a poverty of spirit.
When Mr. H. is described as a man living a rather secluded almost isolated life - his community is limited to faculty and boys at a private school - and that school being named for St. Benedict he reminds me of the Cathusian monks who live in the French Alps, at the Grande Chartreuse, one of the world's most ascetic monasteries.
A German filmmaker was given permission to film their daily prayers, tasks, study, out door excursions using only space and light to tell the story with no musical score or voice
over or explanation of any part of the chronicle of spirituality practiced in a Great Silence. With no film crew or lighting Philip Gröning immersed himself for 6 months in the hush of the monastery creating a remarkable documentary described as "more meditative than documentary, a rare transformative experience for all..." the film is called Into Great Silence.
When I watched this film the first time what caught me with awe was the hours upon hours these monks spent in their individual 'closets' reading ancient and obscure Church literature outloud. Closets - their room with a closet bed (like we see in old Norway), a table and chair, kneeling bench, a small sliding door in the door to the long, Manueline style hallway, where by each monk receives meals and an outside door on the other side of the room that leads to a small private courtyard where some keep a cat and most have a tiny garden.
The rational for their reading material is that these thoughts and words need to be a part of the universe and to keep them alive someone had to devote themselves to reading these precious words from books written in the original language during the first few centuries after the birth of Christ.
My thought was I was witnessing a majestic act of a poetic like ethos however, I also saw by our worldly standards many would see as a waste of time and energy - that except for this film, no one would know this expression, this artistic and aesthetic endeavor took place in the high Alps of France much less see the benefit to mankind.
Then it was an easy leap for me to see the many artists who never come to fame but who attempt to create beauty as their main life's work and then even those who use their time in their cells in prisons to bring some meaning to their lives.
And so I thought that if someone does not directly affect the well being of another or have some recognizable success based on societies values established for success we think they are lacking - lacking so much we question if their spirit is lacking - I am wondering if there even is such a thing as a poverty of spirit - I can see the expression used to define someone without love and compassion in their heart but that would not describe our Mr. H.
Another trip down the lane of defining our own ethics that Ethan Canin provided to us with this story.
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What a great post, Barb. What a beautiful run with the 'poverty of spirit' ball that Pat tossed up. Have to think about that. Naturally one thinks of the beatitude, 'blessed are the poor in spirit', but I don't think it was the want of jois de vivre kind of poverty, but went much deeper than that.
Meister Eckhart preached a sermon on the theme. I'll look it up. From what I remember I have the feeling that he would say the monks were wasting their time. After blessing them for their good intentions
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hmm yes, there appears to be two kinds of basic attitudes among Christians - at least that was how my recently deceased friend, Charlotte and I defined it - She was brought up - OH I cannot remember maybe Church of Christ - whatever it was it no longer exists since she described it as 6 groups combining their efforts into one back, I think before she became Catholic in about 1960 after the birth of her last child.
Anyhow, she was all about good works - each person was only as good as their good works, that the proper expression of being a Christian was assisting others. For me that was a strong statement that I had never heard - my association with God was based on not only seeing my soul as a house of God and realizing everything I did was a prayer so that on top of every school paper written we penned a small cross but showing adoration in music and prayer trumped all with contemplation and meditation in second place.
Neither of us could understand each other's view of how we expressed our Christianity - to the end we silently and simply shook our head in confusion but dearly we loved each other so we chose to set it aside as simply, who we were with no understanding.
In keeping with Charlotte's views she could not understand cloistered nuns or monks and had a difficult time accepting the prayer life on top of the work ethic of a nun, much less their vow of obedience.
On top of my childhood background I had studied a goodly bit of Taoism and some Buddhism, both believing not only in the practice of contemplation but, in doing the simple thing that is in front of you and for the Taoists, it was common to go off into caves, later small groups and still later the 'houses', active today to contemplate for years and years including walking contemplation where all those living in the 'house' chant aloud while walking in a large circle.
And finally, there is the view that like throwing a stone in a pond everything we say and do is creating a ripple in society and in the universe. The sorta, "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Which I understand today the question has become, "If a tree falls in the forest, and hits a mime, does anyone care?"
And so with those awarenesses and my learned childhood view of valuing the practice of St. Benedict following the Desert Fathers of Lectio Divina is probably why I was so taken with the Cathusian monks reading aloud the ancient texts, which is different than the value included in the Bible. Timothy 5:10 - Having testimony for her good works, if she have brought up children, if she have received to harbor, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have ministered to them that suffer tribulation, if she have diligently followed every good work.
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Barb, it's very moving to read how you and your friend Charlotte compared notes over living the successful Christian/Catholic life. Contemplative vs Practical.
I'm shaking my head over the advice for women in Paul's letter to Timothy. He did a lot of mischief with that. But he was teaching. Like Mr Hundert. And what are the boys hearing from Mr Hundert? Get some character. Realize your character. Go out there and conquer the world. Like Shutruk-Nahhunte.
But back to the Christian life. I'm still puzzling over the strange spiritual distress of Mother Teresa, as described in Come Be My Light. She was constantly waiting for the voice she had once heard. God's silence was excruciating for her. Is that a third way to blessedness? She finally found peace in the suffering.
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Could be - however, St. John of the Cross says in the second part of the night (The Dark Night of the Soul) - (the operative word here is 'desire').
IN order to arrive at having pleasure in everything,
Desire to have pleasure in nothing.
In order to arrive at possessing everything.
Desire to possess nothing.
In order to arrive at being everything,
Desire to know nothing.
In order to arrive at that wherein thou hast no pleasure,
Thou must go by a way wherein thou has no pleasure.
In order to arrive at that which thou knowest not,
Thou must go by a way where in thou knowest not.
In order to arrive at that which thou possesest not,
Thou must go by a way that thou possessest not.
In order to arrive at that which thou art not,
Thou must go through that which thou are not,
When thy mind dwells upon anything,
Thou art ceasing to cast thyself upon the All.
For, in order to pass from all to the All.
Thou hast to deny thyself wholly in all.
And, when thou comest to possess it wholly,
Thou must posses it without desiring anything.
For, if thou wilt have anything in having all,
Thou has not treasure purely in God.
Where as the Tao Te Ching says in chapter 37,
1.The Tao always detaches from actions (wu-wei), so there is nothing it cannot achieve.
2.Transformed, yet the desire rises,
3.I would use the nameless Wood Log to calm it down
4.Using the nameless Wood Log, there should be no desire.
5.No desire leads to tranquility.
6.The world will stabilize itself.
Meaning to detach from actions and act what is necessary, but do not expect any reward, do not interfere with the natural process and do not possess the results after acting.
Imagining the world is like a giant tree, and everyone of us is a leaf on the tree. Unattended a leaf sends nutrition to the whole tree, but most of us forget how to generate the correct nutrients.
Transformed, yet the desire rises means that once we help transform others, our ego is likely to rise therefore, we call on the Tao mind, the Wood Log, our true selves, free from all worldly temptation and desire, to calm the heart.
And Buddha taught that some of us will not continue our path to Nirvana, the highest most fulfilled awakened mind, and will choose to stay as a bodhisattva. Knowing about the liberated being, we hold to the idea that every living being during their lifespan should reach Nirvana and they cannot imagine it for themselves without reaching back to grab the hand of those who struggle.
My take on Mother Theresa is - she was not perfect - she had deep questions, she desired more, however, she did not allow this to stop her work of grabbing the hand of the many by administering to their body. Looking into the bio of most Saints, none of them are perfect - they all deal with a human flaw and for many the way they dealt with their flaw is the lesson in addition to the example of a life well lived that is also the message.
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Oh yes, ;) I see no difference between Mr. Hundert's message of conquer the world and Timothy's message, except 2000 years - For many, not just women, 2000 years ago their world was within the walls of their house that most often was also a *man's shop. Yep, the man's shop when we are talking 2000 years ago.
And on top, if old Tim was talking to the wealthy or teaching the wealthy, as is Mr. H. I bet it would be to go beyond their house and community where as, this message appears to be saying the poorest of us in worldly opportunity and possessions can still make a difference with our actions.
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Barb,
this message appears to be saying the poorest of us in worldly opportunity and possessions can still make a difference with our actions.
Interesting how this flows right into our priest's Homily today. We all have something to give even if it is of our talents, be it to listen to someone in distress, visit the lonely, etc., I suppose the Beatitudes are the example of not only being a good Christian, but can be character building.
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We do have a lot of unanswered questions here, don't we?
So could we say that Mr. Hundert has made a difference? And if so, is it for good or for bad?
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'So could we say that Mr. Hundert has made a difference?'
A wonderful question, Ginny. It goes right to the heart of the story. And in Mr Hundert's own words:
'It was with a sense of failure, then, finally, that I handed him his diploma in the spring of 1949, on an erected stage at the north end of the great field, on which he came forward, met my disapproving gaze with his own flat one, and trundled off to sit among his friends.'
Mr Hundert has become a memorable figure for me. I find his story fascinating. His disappointment in discovering that 'character' was in such short supply and missing it in himself. He found a wasteland of sorts, didn't he?
I've found it. I knew I had something of Saint Benedict in the house. The small Image Book edition by Abbot Justin McCann. Priced at 85 cents. I can't remember ever reading it. Was Saint Benedict proud, do you think, that one of his 'boys' went on to become the chairman of EastAmerica Steel, the second-largest corporation in America, as Sedgewick did? And then denied the venerable institution. Can we even begin to imagine Mr Hundert's disappointment?
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Jonathan, good find.... " met my disapproving gaze with his own flat one,"
I find it sad Mr.H., on the first day Sedgewick walks into his classroom, to his graduation day, Mr. H., did not find a way to get beyond this obsession. Then decades later he can't resist the re enactment challenge.
Ginny, I think some students throughout his tenure Mr. H., made an impact on some students, but as for Sedgewick, I think not.
Like my principal told me when I first began teaching and was concerned I was not getting through to my students, "If you touch one, you will have accomplished something." Years later, I realized I touched many!
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Good points, all!!
And it's not just Sedgewick, as Mr. Hunderdt tells us early on, the worth of one life is not determined by one failure or success. There were others.
But he wants to make it right, wants another chance, I think this is where the "foolish" came from, he was again made into a fool. He wanted to make a difference, he was disappointed once, twice and three times.
But he did try. If you look at it that way, why should we measure his life by this one person?
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I mean it's as much folly for somebody to say oh he could have done this or that, or he shouldn't have done this or that, as it was for him to do the wrong thing, but it's clear as a Bell, pardon the pun, that Sedgewick was irredeemable. So why is it his fault for trying? Yes, he made his own mistakes in trying. Was the defection of Charles Ellerby something he deserved?
A 13 year old is not a man in all societies, but he's not a child either. His personality, his way of getting his way and dealing with the world, is formed. Molded if you will. Sometimes people come along who are not amenable to a saint much less a normal human being like Mr. Hundert.
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My summation is that Mr. Hundert reaches down and gives a student an opportunity who would not otherwise have that opportunity - he believes he is doing this because he feels sorry for the student after observing the relationship between the student and his Father -
Regardless of the various thoughts we have on how Mr. H. came to this conclusion and what part his own fears and limitations had, that he was trying to vicariously adjust through Sedgewick, he gives the student an opportunity as many a teacher will reach into the class and give what on paper appears to be an undeserving student a chance.
In his mind's eye Mr. H. thought Sedgewick would leap at the chance and show his father what he was made of - he does not see 'like father like son' as a possible scenario since he did not admire the father he assumed his son did not admire or want the attention of his father other than to prove he was a top grade student.
Basic to human behavior, since we know the student's behavior was altered out of fear of sanction from his father he, like most folks when pushing toward a goal with the fear of not reaching it, or seeing anything less than perfect as failure, the possibility of failure becomes a very scary prospect. The worry about failure is added to the worry of doing something imperfectly.
Mr. H. imagined and hoped to see in Sedgewick a noble knight rising to the occasion and instead, Sedgewick navigated a way to accommodate his fears.
Neither Mr. Hundert's characteristics or Sedgewick's life circumstances altered that - the opportunity was given for what ever rational on the part of Mr. H. and the response to the opportunity elevated the fear of failure requiring an enormous perfection quota leaving the student to balance heroism in the face of his fear or, rather than acknowledge the fear instead to skirt around it using his wits and hope no one notices.
Looking at our own life I am guessing we have all faced the fear of ridicule or of displeasing someone who we would like to receive from them positive attention and positive strokes. And the idea of interpreting our own dislike for something and assuming others have the same aversion that if given the chance will say as much, can kick up in the pants - I've mistakenly done it showing property when a house in my mind was ugly and early in my career I learned the hard way that one of the couple liked the house and so I set up a wall leaving the other to decide if their loyalty was with me or their partner - So Mr. H. set up a wall between the student and his Dad and the student attempted to skirt his fear by ignoring it and choosing a secret tactic toward success and then Mr. H. drops him in the fire -
I can hear his thoughts - if you were going to do that to me why did you ever have me on stage or give me the opportunity that we both inwardly know was given to me since we both know I did not earn it.
Mr. H. wants noble heroic action and preferably he believes anyone given an opportunity can achieve perfection which purges for him, Mr. H. that when he has the opportunity to face a scary parent or make friends or be emotionally available to others he uses all sorts of excuses to justify his own walk with fear where he avoids noble heroic action.
This scenario of fear and wanting success using the perfection as observed by others as the pathway to that success along with, another purging their inadequacy without even acknowledging their fear is played over and over again - with all sorts of other bits of life and intention muddying the water.
Wasn't it Halcyon that suggested Fear as a theme - and so the question becomes for each of us to decide what is worse - purging your own fears vicariously through another or secretly fudging to give an impression of perfection.
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Ginny, "Sedgewick was irredeemable"
I'm wondering by what or who's standards you use to make this qualification?
I did not see Sedgewick irredeemable, nor did I see this scenario,
Barb, In his mind's eye Mr. H. thought Sedgewick would leap at the chance and show his father what he was made of - he does not see 'like father like son' as a possible scenario since he did not admire the father he assumed his son did not admire or want the attention of his father other than to prove he was a top grade student.
You have to assume these things, and judge Sedgewick by Mr. H.'s measuring stick to come to these conclusions, and as far as I am concerned Mr. H., did not even live up to his own measures.
I think we have played these scenarios out many times through this discussion, and for me I feel Sedgewick did admire his father, and his father did not do such a bad job in raising his son, after all he did become successful in life.
Mr. H., does not seem to see Sedgewick worthy from the first day he walks into his classroom, to the announcement of his Senatorial run. I did not so much as see "fear" as I saw a weak man in Mr. H., he chose to make St. Benedict's his life, he chose to be isolated, he chose to not have friends, he chose to not be married, chose to alter Sedgewick's grade which put the entire events into motion. He was not fearful, he was trying to be in control of a young thirteen year old's life. No matter what his reasons were, he had no right to judge, measure, decide, challenge, obsess over, or make this young boy his personal mission in life, to the point he could not let it go even decades later.
the worth of one life is not determined by one failure or success. There were others.
Yes, I imagine there were others, but this particular story was Mr. H., the narrator making it about this one boy.
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I think it is to each his own on this one Bellamarie - I would not have put it past Ethan Canin to have planned it just that way in that we all bring to the story our various experiences and viewpoints so of course we all see different parables and bottom line, we each take from the Story our own message.
Did you see in today's news the tid bit about the 12 year old boy who asked the Mailman for any extra advertisements flyers - curious the Mailman asks and the loves and no books - Mailman suggests library but the boy had already been down that route - they live too far from the library and the family did not have the bus fair that would allow him to visit. And so the Mailman says he thinks he can help him fix his dilemma - so he posts on his Facebook page the story and the boy is at first thinking it was the wrong delivery but folks from as far away as Turkey and France and England as well as all over the US send him books that the boy in awe says he will read everyone and share them with his all friends in the project. The story indicated he had received over 50 books.
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Barb, I agree, we all take from this story what we see, that is why I wanted to show I see differently. It's really been fun!
What a very touching story about the mailman, boy and books. Social media can prove to be very positive. I joined as a volunteer at a women's support center for pregnant women and counseling for those who have had abortions and are suffering from emotional, medical or mental effects afterwards, called Heartbeat of Ohio. I never even knew it existed in my city, until seeing it on Facebook.
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Found this on my Facebook wall yesterday from a former teacher who recently retired. He and I graduated together, and will be attending our 45th class reunion on Aug. 8th. He moved away from our small town, as did I, and became a teacher, so we have been sharing our experiences of teaching with each other on Facebook.
I saw this and thought of this story, and other teacher/student stories I have read. I think Mr. H., felt he needed to work miracles with Sedgewick, whether he needed it or not. :-\
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/1623794_677072052348868_5839251_n.jpg?oh=a678761ee01f23ab5c3357f669c8a839&oe=564694EF)
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Barbara, that post 306 was beautiful, it really was. We need to frame that.
Bellamarie,
Ginny, "Sedgewick was irredeemable"
I'm wondering by what or who's standards you use to make this qualification?
Whose standards? Mine. My opinion. The same standards everybody else has used here to voice their opinions. I don't mean spiritually. I'm not talking about his spiritual life, but his behavior. He cheated once, twice and the third time. Throughout his life. And apparently a 4th which the tabloids caught.
To ME that shows that he's not had any growth toward honesty or honor. His moral compass is weak. So to me, nothing Mr. Hundert could have done could have changed his course. It was like Don Quixote tilling at windmills. His father set his course, sort of like the blackboard you posted here, and Mr. Hundert, just like my mother and the soap, would not have any effect. Yet he and a million other teachers keep trying.
the worth of one life is not determined by one failure or success.
So is this true or not? Why did he tell us this?
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One could make the argument that no one is totally irredeemable, but by the time we meet him, Sedgewick Bell comes pretty darn close to it. Look at the scene in which Bell admits he cheated on the exam:
"...What had happened was that instead of enforcing my own code of morals, I had allowed Sedgewick Bell to sweep me summarily into his. I did not know at the time what an act of corruption I had committed, although what is especially chilling to me is that I believe that Sedgewick Bell, even at the age of thirteen, did.
He knew also, of course, that I would not pursue the matter...."
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"He knew also, of course, that I would not pursue the matter...."
Why then, after forty years, does Mr Hundert feel he has to tell the world about it? If Sedgewick is irredeemablle, it makes Mr Hundert seem hopeless in ever finding peace within himself. He is obviously unhappy with the role he played in Sedgewick's education. What a shock it must have been, when he reads, thirty-seven years later, about his student's successful career, with further great prospects.
'He cheated once, twice and the third time. Throughout his life. And apparently a 4th which the tabloids caught.'
This story has been all about teacher and student. With the tabloids getting into it, Mr Hundert decides his information might help future historians. I wish the historians luck. This reader has had it.
Thanks for the wonderful discussion. Thanks for coming back in, Bellamarie. May all your memories of teaching be happy ones.
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'Was the defection of Charles Ellerby something he deserved?'
Yes, Ellerby was as much a thorn in his side as Sedgewick. Mr Hundert couldn't take the competition as teacher or colleague. See the movie. It shows all the good sides to Mr Hundert.
The best discussion, ever, Ginny.
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Good points, Pat and Jonathan. I'm not sure he deserved Charles Ellerby, does anybody ever deserve that type of treatment?
I agree also on the movie, that one shows the positive side of Mr. Hundert and somehow makes it seem understandable. I must admit I held my breath at the end...you'll have to watch it and see what I mean.
If you DID watch it, now in the last two days would be a great time to talk about it, if you'd like to. Siskel and Ebert loved it.
Thank you, Jonathan, I am amazed what you all made of it and I have to say it was just what I hoped, really, but wasn't sure we could do it in two weeks. I shouldn't ever have doubted. :)
Many thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts with us!
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I'm trying really hard to understand how Sedgewick seems irredeemable at the age of 13 yrs old, and yet Mr. H., is the one who put the whole cheating into motion. Sedgewick did NOT ask for his grades to be altered to earn a spot in the competition. Mr. H. cheated first, and as many times as Sedgewick.
How is Mr. H., at such a young age himself, suppose to be such a wise mentor? He only has a few years of teaching under his belt, and is just in his 20s. If anything, he acted with poor judgement, immature and without morals, and admits he got caught up and obsessed with Sedgewick. So if you measure Sedgewick's behavior, you should in fact measure Mr. H., by the same standards. Mr. H., himself states he allowed himself to get swept up, yet he blames Sedgewick for it even decades later as he tells the story. He is retired, telling this story, and he still sounds like the immature person who judged Sedgewick the first day of class. He says he did not know what an act of corruption he committed.....really? This sounds so much like a child trying to excuse his bad behavior, and blaming someone else for it.
"...What had happened was that instead of enforcing my own code of morals, I had allowed Sedgewick Bell to sweep me summarily into his. I did not know at the time what an act of corruption I had committed,
The problem I have with this story is as I said before, we have ONLY Mr. H.'s side of everything, because he is the narrator. He says he allowed Sedgewick to sweep him into this, yet he is the one who began it in the first place. Cheating is cheating by my standards, no matter what the circumstances are. So they both had flaws, they both lacked good judgement, they both seem irredeemable to me, and they both were playing this cat and mouse game with each other, all the while corrupting their own character.
I am curious like Jonathan, about Mr. H., using the tabloids as a means of Sedgewick's failure to become president, and who gave them the information, and what information was so damaging for it to prevent him from winning? I find that an interesting ending. Was that Mr. H.'s way of saying he got the last blow? I can imagine his character in the movie, grinning as he said it, thinking, you ruined my life and so turnabout is fair play. I think Mr. H., ended up being a very lonely, sad man.
All in all, for me this was a very sad story, and from what I have read in the reviews of the movie they altered the movie to make Mr. Hundert more likeable and less culpable. He was married in the movie, and baseball seemed to be a focus for him.
Okay, I feel like we are all repeating ourselves for the upteenth time, so I will say good bye. I am putting Mr. H., to rest. I've erased the chalkboard, packed up my bookbag, have all my memories, clicking off the lights, locking the door, and leaving the building......... As teachers often say when they retire,
"Next year is for the new teacher to worry about."
It's been fun!! Off to the library to return my book, and find something a little more lighthearted for my summer reading.
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Maybe because we never see the slightest sign of remorse in Sedgewick? He just keeps repeating his behavior?
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Bellamarie another side of this is it is according to how we see corruption - what was corrupted - I think you see Mr. H. a corrupting influence since he cheated and yet, how often we do a kindness for someone thinking they will have a leg up that on their own they cannot manage and so another way of looking at this is that Mr. Hundset's feelings and good works was corrupted by Sedgewick who not only used the opportunity to cheat but dragged Mr. H. into his drama of cheating because Mr. H. was doing a kindness - from what we read Mr. H. sincerely thought that Sedgewick's behavior was because of his fear of disapproval from his father and that being a monumental mountain to climb Mr. H. extended a hand at the expense of anther student -
Sometimes even Judges will extend a hand to a young criminal who they see as acting for the attention of a parent rather than one of the kids just acting out in either anger or to get the attention of his buddies. It turns out Mr. H. miscalculated and it appears Sedgewick was acting out for his buddies until he felt the threat of his father knowing his lack of progress - had he taken the opportunity handed to him by Mr. H. and not blatantly cheated for no one's redemption but his own we could compare the two to like minded cheating however Mr. H. was lending a hand and his feelings of good will was corrupted by Sedgewick.
The way Canin uses that sentence the corruption can be associated with either Sedgewick or Mr. H. and so if we are coming down hard on cheating then as the saying goes if one cheats than we all cheat or if you are told about one guy jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge do we all jump - bottom line it matters not who cheated first - this is not baseball - and just because you have cheated does not mean you are immune from the feeling of being taken advantage of and included as a cheater in the cheat column and in affect stumping on the good intention of benefiting another - Sedgewick did not attempt to benefit another as Mr. H. attempted to benefit Sedgewick.
I have certainly been on the receiving end of someone benefiting me including a Judge when as a very young mom I had a ticket for running a stop sign that was dismissed - I was all of 23 with two babies and a very tight budget and my grandson was also given a huge benefit by a Judge when he was a senior in high school late for a Saturday morning study group and went barreling down that mountain at 95 miles an hour - he was polite to the policeman who was shocked to hear where he was gong and why he was speeding knowing that kind of speeding ticket would have been on his record affecting his ability to get into the college of his choice and so the policeman himself talked to the Judge -
So we do receive benefits that others would say we were cheating the law but I became a more careful driver long before there was such a thing as seat belts or car seats for young children and my grandson never drives over the speed limit and does not fudge even on his long distance drive from N.C. to visit me on his own. Where as Sedgewick took his benefit and did not act in keeping with the opportunity.
Not only that he played with the good intentions of Mr. H. - that is really the horror of his actions - age 13 or not... he has learned well and executes the manipulation of other's betraying their good intentions with a selfish act.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
July Book Club Online: July 7-31
The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/palacethief/Palacethief2.jpg)
"Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
| Topic #3: The Thieves of Integrity/ Plot/ Final Thoughts/ The Palace Thief |
Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "
- 1. Do you agree with the author on what the theme of the book is? Why or why not?
- 2. What do you see the climax of the book to be?
------------- Was it the 2nd contest and the Nahhunte?
--------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert stood up to the whole school and got Charles Ellerby elected?
---------------Was it the moment Mr. Hundert finally stood UP to the conflicts of the entire book (Sedgewick) and tried to say in front of miners, that is not true?
---------------Is it something else?
- 3. "By some fallen column, by some chaste ruin, the thieves of integrity wait...."
( Hilary Mantel, in Wolf Hall)......
. "Virtue had no place in the palaces he had known.." (page 196).
- What does the title of the book mean?
|
Interesting Links:
Annotations for The Palace Thief from Chulalongkorn University (http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~tpuckpan/Canin,%20Ethan-thepalacethief.html)
Discussion Leader: Ginny (gvinesc@gmail.com)
The great summing-ups in the last few days have really brought things into focus for me and displayed how diabollicaly clever the author was in writing this story. On the other hand I still don't know what to believe. I feel certain that Mr Hundert was wrong about the father/son relationship. Father wished the son would do well. Son wished to please him. Their encounters were discussions on the son's progress. No one is walking the moral high ground in this story. They are all working at their careers. It's a match-up between cheating and resourcefulness. With Mr Hundert forced to come down out of his ivory tower, to meet the modern Caesars.
It didn't take Mr Hundert long to see that a potential Mr Caesar had walked into his classroom when the thirteen-year-old Sedgewick entered with a take-over look, 'veni, vidi, vici' written all over his face, and then went on to succeed despite his teachers help and collaboration. No, Mr Hundert made no difference. That really hurt him. And an untrue confession was the result.
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Barb, from what we read Mr. H. sincerely thought that Sedgewick's behavior was because of his fear of disapproval from his father and that being a monumental mountain to climb Mr. H. extended a hand at the expense of another student -
And this was his first mistake......to conclude this, and then begin to alter grades and cheat, and become obsessed with this young 13 yr. old.
It was NOT Mr. H.'s place to assume anything, and it certainly was NOT his place to begin the ball rolling by cheating, which Sedgewick did not expect or ask for him to do.
'l'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés ou désirs'
Clearly we can argue our points forever, since we see the actions and intents of each of these characters differently. Neither of us are right or wrong in how we see their actions. That's a pretty hard accusation against a 13 yr. old who has entered a class mid way, and is being judged and humiliated by a teacher on his first day.
I disagree, it is not important with who cheated first. Had Mr. H., never changed the grades the entire incidents would not have occurred.
I clearly did not see any remorse in Mr. H., either and he continued to engage, and cheat, as well. He could have ended this at any time and chose not to.
I agree wholeheartedly with you Jonathan.
This story sounded like an unrepentant mea culpa. A man, coming to terms with his failure in life.
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:). The Discussion That Will Not Die. However it's interesting, because you keep bringing up new and interesting points.
Do any of you see any regret, any remorse, any apologia at all from Mr. Hundert? I think that's a fair question. I think we are being awfully hard on the one man that shows remorse. We don't have Charles Ellerby's opinion. We only have one man.
And it's true he's the narrator, and it's true he may not be reliable, but it's also true prima facie he is showing remorse. Using the word "mistake" alone shows he feels he was wrong.
If he were irredeemable, he would not be worrying himself about it.
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All I can say is I am thankful that there have been an awful lot of teachers who altered grades and in essence cheated with many many students and in spite of pre-college-course special ed classes that were set up, without cheating, padding grades, expecting less, our collages would be milky white to this day with a few Asians thrown in.
Most often the cause is parent circumstance and attitude that may be directly opposite the circumstances, attitude and expectation of Hyram Bell but it still comes down to attitude and expectations for a child by a parent that a teacher would visit the parents in their home and would too often not experience any more satisfactory a visit then Mr. H. has with Hyram Bell - the teacher often tries to affect the student by giving a kid a helping hand which is cheating - and so it appears our idea of what is cheating and what is offering a leg up is in question.
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I haven't been keeping up with the posts but thought everyone would be interested in this part of the e-book introduction to Up The Down Staircase. Bel Kaufman wrote the introduction in 2012 for the release of the e-book. She has since died. I've been busy caring for my husband who had rotator (sp) cuff surgery and getting ready for our only child's wedding in mid August! It's hard fitting a man in a new suit when he can't move his arm. Haha.
As far back as 1961, educators warned about the “social dynamite” building up in our schools. Now, it is exploding all over the place. At their historic meeting on education in 1989 at the University of Virginia, state governors wondered how to solve all of society’s ills in the classrooms. So do teachers today. An ad for Apple Computer summed it up: “We expect our teachers to handle teenage pregnancy, substance abuse, and the shortcomings of the family. Then we expect them to educate our children.” In the last few years, there has been a spate of books, articles, news stories, radio programs, and television documentaries with frantic titles: “A Nation at Risk!” …. “High Schools on the Brink!” …. “Save Our Schools! …” National reports have lamented the quality of public education, trying to “stem the tide of mediocrity.” And what do these reports tell us? Everything that can be found in a book written in 1963.
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Ginny, If he were irredeemable, he would not be worrying himself about it.
I'm not so sure I see him worrying himself about it, if anything his narration is all about him, his blaming Sedgewick for pulling him into his moral dilemma. I personally don't like to think anyone is irredeemable, especially when they are only entering their teens, or a teacher in their twenty's, but Sedgewick went on to be a success, and Mr., H., is the one telling his woeful story. This could be considered his very own personal pity party. Everyone seemed to do wrong, and he is the victim who just had to make these wrong choices because of them. Sedgewick, pulled him in, Mr. Woolbridge caused him to cheat since he refused to expose Sedgewick, Ellerby backstabbed him causing him to lie about the gun, the Senator was not a fit parent, etc., etc. Again while he was assuming and acting on his assumptions, he managed to involve other innocent students as well, who years later voiced their feelings about it.
Myself, and others are as hard on Mr. H., as you, and others are on Sedgewick. Those who have seen the movie may have the advantage of liking Mr. H., a bit more because it was written differently from the book.
Ginny, The Discussion That Will Not Die.
:) :) :) :)
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OH I lost SUCH a giant post. Halcyon, bless your heart, I hope you are not stark staring mad at the end of August! I hope the wedding is the most beautiful, wonderful, memorable time in your lives. I am sure it will be!
I had said in the post that I wanted to congratulate you all on your handling of this discussion, the cordially expressed polarized opinions, which allowed us all to enjoy the discussion and get something out of it, while at the same time learning a bit about our fellow readers here.
I wish we had taken the time to define "cheating," as we each see it, as Barbara is attempting to do in her post. Degrees of "cheating." There are all kinds of "cheating" in the world. I agree, Jonathan, the author has used a lot of skill (I know a lot of you don't want to believe the author has deliberately manipulated the reader, perhaps if we had spent a little more time with the plot elements, we might have come to a different conclusion), but I truly did not realize that some of the issues here were so explosive, so it's really been a super discussion for me. It takes a long time to develop this kind of give and take that doesn't disintegrate, when arguing passionately about a book. It's rare and what every book discussion should be, and isn't.
As we said when we started, one of the criteria of Literary Criticism, which is what we're doing in a modest way here, is that one has to be able to back up one's conclusions with statements from the book. Not how we feel about those statements, but what they actually are.
Is there anybody here who honestly thinks that what you may have done in the past that you feel sorry about will NOT be the subject of your rumination in your old age? If you do, you're fooling yourself. And none of us are perfect. He's normal.
Here Mr. Hundert is telling us his inmost thoughts. He's not talking to anybody but us and he's telling the reader what happened thru his eyes. I think he can be allowed to do that. We've all heard of witnesses to an accident that don't agree even on the appearance of the persons involved. Everybody might have seen these events differently. It's his life as he saw it and he's telling us his viewpoint.
Why should he? He's not told anybody else? WE can't absolve him, no matter how sorry he is. Is he whining? Pity Party?? I think he deserves a good whine, myself, he's apparently kept this to himself a long time. Something like this would eat at a man.
So maybe he'll find somehow he can forgive himself for the things he did wrong (he after all is not a mass murderer), or find somebody who can cast another ameliorating light on the subject.
I think sometimes we read a book and read a lot into a character based on our own experiences, that others don't see. This character may touch a hot wire with us for a number of reasons, but to others in the group, it may not be there. We can't blame Mr. Hundert for seeing Sedgewick the way he did if we can't see Mr. Hundert in any kind of charitable light. Because if we can't, then we're "cheating" him of a fair judgment, and we're actually doing to him what we are accusing him of doing to others.
Bellamarie: "but Sedgewick went on to be a success, "
Not in my eyes. That's not my idea of success in any way.
At least we know Mr. Hundert regrets, refers to what he did as "mistakes," (that's regret) what he did. And thanks to the author, we don't know how Sedgewick feels about cheating again on the test, about cheating again in front of the miners, and about whatever the tabloids said, a pretty steady course of life, I'd say. Not caused by anything but his own character. And upbringing.
Bellamarie: I'm not so sure I see him worrying himself about it, if anything his narration is all about him,
Well of course it is. What else is a mea culpa?
Super discussion, Guys! Thank you all so much!
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After so much intensity pouring out our inner most views on life in this discussion I thought a brake was in order or at least I needed a break and today a friend posted this of her son and his friend up on the highway - I smiled and enjoyed every last minute - as the heading of the video says - no cure for summertime blues - except...
https://www.facebook.com/mustang877/videos/10152984212810872/?fref=nf
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Ginny, We can't blame Mr. Hundert for seeing Sedgewick the way he did if we can't see Mr. Hundert in any kind of charitable light. Because if we can't, then we're "cheating" him of a fair judgment, and we're actually doing to him what we are accusing him of doing to others.
We could say the same for those who are cheating Sedgewick of a fair judgement.
One's success is not always viewed as a success by another. Mr. H., seemed to think Sedgewick became successful in spite of what he did to him many years ago. To be chairman of a multimillion dollar company, and become a Senator is not all too shabby.
It came as a surprise, then, when I learned in the Richmond Gazette, thirty-seven years later, of Sedgewick Bell's ascension to the chairmanship of EastAmerica Steel, at that time the second-largest corporation in America.
Of course, he also offered a good sum of money to me personally. Although I had until then led a life in which finances were never more than a distant concern, I was keenly aware that my time in the school's housing and dining halls was coming to an end. On the one hand, it was not my burning aspiration to secure an endowment for the reign of Charles Ellerby; on the other hand, I needed the money, and I felt a deep loyalty to the school regarding the Annual Fund. That evening I began to prepare my test.
For a man who thought so little of Sedgewick, and how corrupt he felt he was, he had no problem deciding to take his money for his own personal needs.
An EastAmerica jet would fly me from there to Charlotte, from whence I was to be picked up by helicopter. Helicopter! Less than a month later I stood before the craft, which was painted head to tail in EastAmerica's greeen and gold insignia, polished to a shine, with a six-man passenger bay and red-white and blue sponsors over the wheels. One does not remain at St. Benedict's for five decades without gaining a certain familiarity with privilege, yet as it lifted me off the pad in Charotte, hovered for a moment, then lowered its nose and turned eastward over the gentle hills and then the chopping slate of the sea channel, I felt a headiness that I had never known before; it was what Augustus Caesar must have felt millennia ago, carried head-high on a litter past the Tiber. I clutched my notes to my chest. Indeed I wondered what my life might have been like if I had felt this just once in my youth.
Now this speaks volumes....."what my life might have been like if I had felt this just once in my youth."
Mr. H., saw that youthful drive Sedgewick had, from the minute he walked into his classroom, to becoming successful. Something he was not able to do, instead he secluded himself in St. Benedict's and did not take any risks in life to experience this headiness. Could that be what drove Mr. H, to Sedgewick?
How many times do we see something in another person, and stop to think if only I could do that, be that, take that risk.
"The first and worst of all frauds is to cheat oneself."
Gamaliel Bailey
I still have to wonder why in the first paragraph of this story Mr. H., says, "This is a story without surprises."
I can't begin to count how many times throughout this story he says he was "surprised."
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Barb, Thanks for the video, so cute!!! :)
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Barb, in her post 324, reminded me of an inner-city teacher in Baltimore who I once knew telling me that the inner-city schools were nothing more than holding pens. She had been frustrated at the lack of support and downright hostility from the parents of her students. The didn't care, didn't understand, and/or didn't want their children being smarter than them.
Bellamarie's comment, "Mr. H., saw that youthful drive Sedgewick had, from the minute he walked into his classroom, to becoming successful. Something he was not able to do, instead he secluded himself in St. Benedict's and did not take any risks in life to experience this headiness," brings up some issues for me. This goes back to fear of failure and fear of the unknown, don't you think? Mr. H. sequestered himself in the only area he felt comfortable with and never stepped out of that comfort zone.
Until my late 30's/early 40's I believe I owned (and to some extent, still do) these fears. It took me a long time, and with George's help to push past them. George, who saw me as a dependent personality, often insisted that I make my own decisions and attend to my own wants and needs rather always differing them to others. He would sometimes say he couldn't tell whether I was doing something/agreeing to something because I wanted it or just reflecting what I thought he wanted. He did the work my parents were, for whatever reasons (fears of their own?), didn't. He helped me become an independent person. I occasionally tell him he created this monster, now he has to live with it. While we no longer live together, we remain great friends, and talk almost daily and see each other often. George, BTW, is also a retired teacher. He thinks of me as one of his greatest successes (so he said once) even though I never had him as a teacher.
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Frybabe, good for George but good for you the most. YOU are the one who finally did it.
This goes back to fear of failure and fear of the unknown, don't you think? Mr. H. sequestered himself in the only area he felt comfortable with and never stepped out of that comfort zone.
Yes I agree. And when he did step out of that comfort zone, notice, he did respond to treachery (the miners and Sedgewick's lies). That's another reason why the "proud" is on his face. He's finally proud of himself.
Bellamarie: We could say the same for those who are cheating Sedgewick of a fair judgement.
Unfortunately we can't. The reason is the Great Judge, the author who created these characters will not allow us to make a fair judgment by the way he's written the book. As I keep saying. (It's really too bad we didn't have the time or the inclination to spend on how he wrote the plot).
Sedgewick is a cardboard caricature by design. And he has expressed no remorse whatsoever. We can see that in his continuing cheating actions.
Mr. Hundert has expressed remorse and regret.
We're not privy to Sedgewick's inner thoughts. Therefore we can't judge him any way than he's presented, and that's by author design.
It appears that we should also have taken the time to define success.
To be chairman of a multimillion dollar company, and become a Senator is not all too shabby.
We must be reading different books. Sedgewick was not a senator. He was running for the office. And cheating his way through. If every idiot in the US who ran for office had been elected TO that office, we'd be in worse shape than we are currently.
Let's take off the flash words of their names for a minute and look at the logic which seems skewed.
1. Person A admits in his soul searching mea culpa to us that he cheated on a test score for the purpose of giving a child a break.
The drum roll of "cheating, cheating, cheating" begins. We are to despise Person A. He is a failure. He repents, but who cares? He's a disgrace to the teaching profession. No chance in Hell of any kind of charity from us.
2. Person B cheats, cheats, cheats, into adulthood, two times as a grown man running for office. We don't know what he thinks, but it must work for him in his life because he keeps it up. Person B is the CEO of a multimillion dollar company. That makes HIM a "success?" while the other poor shmuck on his very small teaching pension (as is common of all teachers) is not, despite his acknowledgement that he was wrong.
Apparently we don't know personally many CEO's of multimillion dollar companies. They are men or women just like any other. If THEY cheat cheat cheat, if we condemn "cheating, " then they also are not successful as human beings. And IF their story is told in such a way that we don't know remorse they may be feeling (that's the author, again) then we have no choice BUT to condemn them, whether or not they make money or whatever status they seem to be.
In for a penny, in for a pound. If Person A is a disgrace, because he "cheated," then so is Person B. There is NO arguing that Person B cheated.
I personally think Person A is intended to represent Everyman and his regret, because unlike Frank Sinatra's My Way ("Regrets? I've had a few, but then again too few to mention..") Person A does care about his moral integrity.
The same cannot be said for Person B because he is a character in a book deliberately presented in a certain way by the author.
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Frybabe, Yes, I agree, I do think when Mr. H., finally stepped out of his comfort zone, and felt the headiness for the first time in his life, he realized how much he had cheated himself out of, and fear certainly could have been a factor. It makes me wonder if he resented Sedgewick, being so young and fearless, yet was drawn to him for the excitement. Didn't he say Sedgwick pulled him in.....maybe Mr. H., taking those little steps of breaking the rules for Sedgewick, was his attempt to not following the rules and experiencing what it is like to be like Sedgewick.
I am so glad you have George, he sounds like a very caring, loving and wise person. This is a wonderful statement..... "I occasionally tell him he created this monster, now he has to live with it."
Ginny, We must be reading different books. Sedgewick was not a senator. He was running for the office. And cheating his way through. If every idiot in the US who ran for office had been elected TO that office, we'd be in worse shape than we are currently.
In my book on page 203:
He won that election not in small part because he managed to convince those miners that he was one of them. They were ignorant people, and I cannot blame them for taking to the shrewdly populist rhetoric of the man. I saved this picture that appeared the following morning in the Gazette: Senator Bell radiating all the populist magnetism of his father, holding high the arm of an old man who has on his face the remnants of a proud foolish smile.
He's finally proud of himself. Is he really proud of himself, or is he finally allowing himself to recognize Sedgewick is successful in spite of him thinking the father was a bad parent. He mentions Sedgewick "radiating all the populist magnetism of his father." Does he realize how much the father really did for his son, how much the father meant to Sedgewick?
It rankled my feathers that Mr. H., would call the miners, "ignorant people" Is this Mr. H., just not accepting people liked Sedgewick? Voters who are being proactive, as these miners were, can see beyond the rhetoric, the last word I would describe them as is "ignorant."
Unfortunately we can't. The reason is the Great Judge, the author who created these characters will not allow us to make a fair judgment by the way he's written the book.
Hmmm....an author can write a book with his/her own intentions, but the reader is at liberty to read the words and decide for themselves what they will perceive it to be. Much like scripture, two people can read the same verse and come away with an entirely different interpretation. We factor in our own personal experiences, beliefs, morals etc., and can come away seeing something the author himself/herself did not realize could be there.
A few times we have had authors join our discussion and tell us they had not intended for the reader to see it as we expressed we did, but they could see how we came to our conclusion. As an author myself, I would never want my reader to see me as the "Great Judge"I would hope my readers would expand beyond my words and thoughts and inspire me and others to see it from many different points of view, as I feel we all have done with this story. As I mentioned before, it's like a prism.
We see it differently and are not going to change each other's minds regardless of our arguments and points. I agree they both were cheaters and intent does not excuse the cheating. You see these two characters one way, and I see them another. I do not see Sedgewick as a "cardboard character" the author and the narrator, Mr. H., has made him a very important character in his storytelling. Without him, there would be no story. No one gets through life living it to perfection. We all along the way will bend a rule, tell a lie, manipulate a situation for our gain, etc. It does not make everyone bad people, it makes them human. I do not see either of these characters as irredeemable.
We are indeed reading the same book, and I think you make fine points, but we will have to agree to disagree.
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I'd say in 50 years we have accomplished this marvel...!
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'I know a lot of you don't want to believe the author has deliberately manipulated the reader.'
I refuse to believe it, Ginny. My impression is that the author has very successfully kept himself out of it, allowing Mr Hundert to speak for himself. It's the teacher who has on occasion pulled the wool over our eyes. Perhaps even over his own.
This is the sorriest tale I have ever read. Mr Hundert with his 'character is fate' story is going to haunt me for a long time. The picture of the old man with the proud foolish smile. After that thoughts of honor and vengeance. Crossing the Rubicon without a die. He was a good teacher for so many years. Who would have guessed the frustrations.
All your thoughtful posts have certainly enriched this reading experience in a most amazing way. Many thanks. What fun to participate.
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Poke'n my nose in one more time - yep, I am feeling Wild Day excitement in the air
For most of us our day is filled with meals, laundry, appointments, shopping, work, paying bills, gassing up the car, mowing, weekend cleanup, church, friends, volunteering, caring for partner/family, the cat or dog - some of these activities are written in our day planner but most are the ordinary responsibilities we mentally track as, the week's "to do".
Now the big question - Does anyone ever really schedule in their appointment calendar a set time to read, or write and post a chapter analysis, or does anyone schedule on a chalk board time for a Senior Learn discussion, or set an appointment for research time to find more background for the current story?
Or have you ever chucked it all and read for an entire afternoon or even a day? Have you ever sat down immediately to read a new book delivered or picked up from the library? Have you, as I have, binged for a day or more, reading more than one book, eating leftovers or heating up a bowl of soup.
“Voila!” - Our "Wild Days!"
Our "Wild Days" are all the unscheduled times we read and post on SeniorLearn and the times we binge read. All the time we do not schedule in our appointment book or even our mental 'to do' track. It's our Wheee time or me time??!!?? Our "Wild Days!"
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We're excited about reading your stories that will capture and celebrate our golden "Wild Days". Starting on August 10 bring your ukulele, banjo, guitar, harmonica or just hum through an old tooth comb and tissue and sing outloud around our fire of memories in the discussion Our Wild Days; Creating the Good Life on SeniorLearn.
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Well it looks like it's time to fold the tent. :) It's been a fine and worthwhile discussion of this little 50 page novella, and I think it could probably go on a while. But today we will conclude it (again) hahaha and thank you all for your insights.
(So true, Barbara, on the cartoon. I'm going to save that one)
Absolutely right, Bellamarie, now we're equal in Oops Moments.... I had missed that little bit about the election, good work. Of course that makes no difference in Sedgewick's predilections, or my opinion of him.
Hmmm....an author can write a book with his/her own intentions, but the reader is at liberty to read the words and decide for themselves what they will perceive it to be. Much like scripture, two people can read the same verse and come away with an entirely different interpretation. We factor in our own personal experiences, beliefs, morals etc., and can come away seeing something the author himself/herself did not orealize could be there.
Sure, the readers have a lot of liberty. They can make up anything they want. But if I'm reading a book and the author says there are three people walking down the road but another reader, however persuasive, sees three people and two pink elephants....there's nothing one can say. That doesn't MEAN the point has now become that three people and two pink elephants are walking down the road, it means that there are three people in the book walking down the road and some people have read something into it. Which is fine and makes for a great discussion.
I do not see Sedgewick as a "cardboard character" the author and the narrator, Mr. H., has made him a very important character in his storytelling. Without him, there would be no story.
To me Sedgewick represents the CONFLICT part of the plot. He's not a fully developed character.
I refuse to believe it, Ginny. My impression is that the author has very successfully kept himself out of it, allowing Mr Hundert to speak for himself.
I don't think it's possible for an author to keep himself out of a creation he's done. However I like the idea of Mr. Hundert ending the discussion himself. I'll let him start it, too:
Is there no battle other than the personal one? (Said by Mr. Hundert at the end of the book before the miner's meeting).
We've had some great summations here. I'd like to have a go, too. For my part, I spent a lot of time thinking about the various themes running under the surface of the book, some of which we haven't talked about . There are a lot of classical allusions in this book, which pertain to Julius Caesar, and life being a battle, at last count I had 6 allusions to Caesar's life alone, some very subtle, (not counting the contest name but once) and what looks like a million to "battle." Including the contest questions. In 50 pages.
I had been struggling a bit trying to figure out why there are so many allusions to Caesar and what they meant. I have decided for my own part that a man steeped in literature in a crisis will come up with a literary quote. A man steeped in classics always sees things thru that prism. That's true in life and seems truly drawn here, to me. Mr. Hundert is using that metaphor to express how besieged he felt. Just like Caesar's quae cum ita sint..(since these things are so...here's what happened, here's what I did about it).....it makes perfect sense now. In a sense it's a parallel Commentary to Caesar's Commentarii, not of an actual series of battles but a series of metaphorical ones.
Jonathan wrote: Crossing the Rubicon without a die.
The Crossing the Rubicon part of Caesar's life (which famous saying, by the way, is now thought (1) not to be correct (2) missing half the parts OR (3) said in Greek (4) never said at all), seemed strange to me in this place in the plot.
I needed to understand how the alea iacta est (the die is cast) related to Mr. Hundert, and reread the book last night:
The die is cast, I said, and I threw it twenty yards out into the water. The last impediment to my headmastership had been hurdled and by the time i came ashore, walked back whistling to my front door, and changed for bed, I was ecstatic.
Yet that night I slept poorly, and in the morning when I rose and went to our faculty meeting, I felt that the mantle of my fortitude had slipped somehow from my shoulders. How hushed is demise!
Mr. Hundert up until that point of his own Crossing the Rubicon thought he was in control. But Mr. Hundert realized in this scene he was no Caesar and there's nothing left he can do about it; he's been outmaneuvered. And this one realization, that flash of reality was an overwhelming defeat for him on top of the others. But this is not the climax of the plot. If it were, the book would have had some resolution and ended. It didn't.
And it makes a big difference in how I personally believe Mr. Hundert is meant to be seen. And the point of the story.
The Rubicon moment has made changes, tho. Mr Hundert has changed, following his Rubicon moment, in his feelings for Sedgewick Bell: before the adult contest:
"but I must say that the straightforward determination of Sedgewick Bell had begun to win my heart.....I seemed to be in the throes of an affection for him."...Hope springs eternal. And is dashed again in this complex plot.
I believe the climax of the book (the highest or most intense point in the development or resolution of something/ the point of highest dramatic tension or a major turning point in the action (as of a play) as I said, was his finally standing up at the Miners gathering.
Here's why:
He finally stood up to wrong the right way.
If all the conflict and events in the book led up to his finally stepping UP to the plate, in front of a crowd, in front of the press, we should rejoice with him that he finally has Caesar's l'audace, which he has lacked all this time. He rightfully took his own place in history. To me, in so doing, he crossed a threshold and set himself at peace.
Feel sorry for him or despise him if you like, he's at peace. He's living in the dignity now that the author thought (see heading), was the point of the book, and said was the theme. He has exorcized his demons like a tongue touching a sore tooth repeatedly.. Hence the mea culpa to us, the reader. And he finally acted. And he may now reach out for the next thing he wants.
It's an absolutely beautiful story. Beautifully written, beautifully done and beautifully ended.
And beautifully discussed. Thank you for your participation and insights!
This discussion is now closed. Please join us for Barbara's "Our Wild Days" beginning August 10.