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Preparing for our Fall read, The Warden/Barchester Towers
Our Main Goal for Pre-discussion Week
October 2 - October 8
In order to catch Trollope's irony and humor, helpful is a look into the Anglican Church of England, that pillar of Victorian society.
Also, we are scoping out the history, traditions, social and legal changes affecting the behavior of individuals within the power structure of the High Church.
To further appreciate Trollope's character's susceptibility to corruption, hypocrisy, and conservatism, we will foray a look at mid-century Victorian society.
We will make this a wonderful week of sharing, as if time travelers, Trollope's Britain. | (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/warden/owl.jpg) |
A few questions to help center us ---
1] Let's find some highlights about Trollope, who shows a reverence for the past and a diligent awareness of the present as nonstop change.
2] What is his experience publishing The Warden in 1855 & Barchester Towers in 1857
3] How old in 1855 was the Queen, the supreme governor of the Church of England
4] What was the line of authority within the High Church
5] What significant laws extending religions, were written during the early part of the nineteenth century
6] What was the Oxford Movement and how did the formation of the Methodists help define the Anglicans
7] What was the difference between the High Church and the Broad Church of England
8] How did change up-end the social and political Norman pyramid structure - the stuff of Dickens, Gaskell, Trollop
9] What were the published newspapers and magazines - what were their tone
10] What was an Almshouse and who started the first Almshouse
The schedule for our discussion starting on Monday, October 8:
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family - according to the book you are reading, 60 pages.
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight - 78 pages
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene - 74 pages
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 35, Miss Thorne's Fête Champêtre - 70 pages
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 36, Ullathorne Sports - Act I - to - Chapter 43, Mr and Mrs Quiverful are made happy Mr. Slope is encouraged by the Press - 73 pages
Nov. 12 - 18 --- Chapter 44, Mrs Bold at Home - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion - 64 pages
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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What fun... we have already started talking about the difference in churches in the Library - just love all it!
OK, let's have fun with this - it will help to realize the church is ONLY a platform for the differences in how people express themselves. The story is a story and not a reflection on our personal religious practices or beliefs.
There is so much change taking place during the mid-nineteenth century making it is easy to see the similarities to the change we are experiencing today. The issues are different but the change is breathtaking as it speeds into our life swirling us into a constant reactive state followed by constant decision making, just as the characters in Trollop's Barchester novels.
This story is about the mid-nineteenth century and not about today – Please, a reminder, this is not a political discussion - or a religious discussion.
Now that the boundaries are set, let's gab. There are many web sites that will get us closer to a feel for mid-nineteenth century Britain – Use the suggested question in the heading, share with us other bits you find and websites as well as, the comparisons to how other Victorian authors use the changes in their stories. Have you read Trollop in the past?
Get comfortable, settle in with your tea/coffee or your glass of wine, and rummage around with us finding the social and work changes also, the traditions that will help us enjoy the read. Share with us things like, what was a typical Victorian breakfast or the recipe for a Jam and Cream Victorian Tea Cake to, what was the immigration policy in Britain and where was the Union Jack newly planted.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
― Anthony Trollope, The Warden
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I feel like a fish out of water here..... I began reading the first chapter of the book and was not yet able to get a feel for it. I will continue on. Thank you Barb for the clarity of what the discussion is and is not about. I'm trying to put myself into the mind set of the Victorian era, maybe a little Earl Grey tea will help, along with changing my profile pic. I love the Trollope quote so much so, I plan to use it on my profile.
Since question #10 seems the easiest I will tackle that one.
10] What was an Almshouse and who started the first Almshouse
England
Many almshouses are European Christian institutions though some are secular.[1] Alms are, in the Christian tradition, money or services donated to support the poor and indigent. Almshouses were established from the 10th century in Britain, to provide a place of residence for poor, old and distressed people. The first recorded almshouse was founded in York by King Athelstan; the oldest still in existence is the Hospital of St. Cross in Winchester, dating to about 1132. In the Middle Ages, the majority of European hospitals functioned as almshouses.
Many of the medieval almshouses in England were established with the aim of benefiting the soul of the founder or their family, and they usually incorporated a chapel. As a result, most were regarded as chantries and were dissolved during the Reformation, under an act of 1547. Almshouses generally have charitable status and aim to support the continued independence of their residents. There is an important delineation between almshouses and other forms of sheltered housing in that almshouse residents generally have no security of tenure, being solely dependent upon the goodwill of the administering trustees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almshouse
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Wow Bellamarie look at this - the Hospital of St. Cross has a web site AND it says the Almshouse was featured in the TV version of Wolf Hall - loved Wolf Hall on PBS - can you even imagine living in a building that has been standing since 1132... amazing...
http://hospitalofstcross.co.uk/
This is a time when Abelard and Héloïse were exchanging love letters and letters to each other about their religious views - 1132 is way before Henry the VIII - to imagine a concern for the elderly, the sick and the poor that prompted the construction of buildings that far back in history boggles the mind. The famous Hôtel-Dieu de Beaune with its distinct roof pattern was not even thought of - it was built 300 years later in 1443
Trollop picked a good one choosing the Almshouse with that kind of historical tradition, showing the conservative nature of the church and yet, the Almshouse also shows the human side of care and kindness towards the poor and elderly so it appears to straddle both the maintenance of the ongoing traditions of the church as well as, the human side that shows good behavior. Wow a noble bridge between the logical mind and the emotional heart.
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X marks my spot.
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Bellamarie, you know more than you think about Victorian England. Cranford was published just 2 years before Barchester Towers.
Thanks for the information about almshouses: There is an important delineation between almshouses and other forms of sheltered housing in that almshouse residents generally have no security of tenure, being solely dependent upon the goodwill of the administering trustees.
I can imagine the jockeying for favor that went on.
The Hospital of St. Cross and its church are certainly beautiful, but if you think about those dwellings, they are going to be very dark and very cold (though no more so than other small dwellings of the time}.
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Barb,
I would like to join the group. Is there a specific edition we should read. I see many offerings on Amazon. Thanks Nancy
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Welcome, Nancy. I'll let Barb answer your question, but I think it's a question of whether you want commentary and background notes. The text should be the same. We're a pretty congenial bunch here; I hope you'll enjoy talking with us.
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looking forward to your posts Callie
Never thought Pat, but yes, I can see the jockeying for attention - seems all of life is a race as if there is not enough to go around from financial resources, to goods, to natural resources, to attention and love from parents, boss, kings, and the biggie the controller of the purse -
Great - Welcome youetb - look there has been a big mixup over the book we are reading - it appears we are doing Barchester Towers - when I ordered my book from Amazon I thought I ordered The Warden and arrived is Barchester Towers - the book we are reading has 53 chapters and that is the key - because it appears The Warden that is online free has only 21 chapters - there is a TV version that is quite good that shows both and they may be entwined - but safe to say I will put the link up for the 1st youtube section - the series showed on PBS and is in 7 sections - we really like to use our reading to discuss our books rather than a movie or TV movie but in this case with the mix-up (we advertised The Warden for weeks and then this huge mixup so everyone was on board with reading Barchester Towers) anyhow seeing that first youtube section will offer some background of how Reverend Harding and his youngest daughter fit into the story -
To get the book we are discussing the 2nd book in the series, Barchester Towers - I had ordered the Oxford Classic - but any edition should work - the reason I like the Oxford edition to a book is they are usually annotated.
Now if you are a fast reader and just want the facts of what happened reading The Warden this week will add to your enjoyment however, Barchester Towers does stand alone - some editions that Amazon has available includes both these books in one - The 2nd book Barchester Towers does not go into how the Reverend Harding's younger daughter was married had a child and her husband died - it was him and his editor that brought to light the medieval mandate about the financing of the almshouse where Reverend Harding was the acting Chaplin. After facts were brought to light he chose to retire - we pick up with a new Bishop coming to replace the kind old Bishop who died. The stories have lots of irony, tongue and cheek, inconsistency of intent within the Church, power plays and big egos, played against the kindness and caring for others that is typical of some of the characters.
;) all that just to say welcome - and any edition will work as long as there are the 53 chapters - here is the link to the Gutenberg ebooks editions of Barchester Towers http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3409 (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3409) and here is the link to the Gutenberg ebooks edition of The Warden http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/619
Thanks Pat - yep, a congenial bunch and after this mixup for sure congenial - always a first time for something...
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Congratulations, Barb, on the splendid heading. Getting into the discussion is impossible without first having a few words with the owl. And I went back to her after I had considered the parameters you were setting for our read. How did the owl feel? Would we enfoy Trollope more if we knew something about Victorian England, or would reading Trollope inform us about his contemporaries and the times.
Granted, it would be useful to know something about the officers of the Church of England. The bishops, and the vicars and rectors, the prebendaries and the precentors, the archdeacons and the chaplins. And of course the Wardens. The diicese? The parish? The See?
I read something recently which might be of interest in reading our book. It concerns Laurence Sterne, who lived a hundred years earlier. The Church was obviously a career opportunity. Allow me to quote:
'On completing his course at the university he was ordained a minister. He had no strong "calling" to a clerical life but just "sat down quietly in the lap of the church" and was soon, with the assistance of an infuential uncle, installed in a number of livings near York. He held the vicarages of Sutton and Stillington, was a prebend of the cathedral and Commisary of the Peculiar Court of Pickering and Pocklington. As was the custom then, he employed a curate, finding diversions in cathedral politics, philandering and the company of a roistering set of blades who defiantly called themselves the "Demoniacks" and gathered to drink and revel at John Hall Stevenson's "Crazy Castle," near Saltburn-by-the-sea.' (Bergen Evans, introduction to The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman)
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Barb and Pat,
Perfect found the classic, already reading the Warden. Appreciate your book guidance .Barchester Towers and
53 Chapters it is.
Thank you for the warm welcome.
Nancy
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If I remember correctly, it was explained in Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice that since the first son of a noble inherited the estates, the following sons were most often encouraged to pursue a career in the church as an acceptable means for sustaining themselves.
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Yes, the following sons needed a source of income, and there were only a few professions that were regarded as respectable for a gentleman--the church was one, the army or navy (as officer) and I think certain branches of law. You see good clergy in Austen, and also the ones who just do it for the money, have several "livings" and sublet them, splitting the income between the curate actually doing the work and themselves.
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Frybabe there is such a different tone to the Jane Austin stories compared to Trollop isn't there - even the 'bad guys' are given respect in a Jane Austin novel where as all the pin pricks of sarcasm and almost slap stick comedy highlights the bad behavior of Trollop's 'bad guys' - maybe that is part of the difference Jane Austin's bad guys are not bumbling where as Trollop's bad guys are behaving not too much differently than if playing a drawing room comedy of manners.
Pat I remember first hearing from you some years ago explain what a 'Living' was - trying to remember the book discussion - it may have been a Jane Austin. Can you help - a few words I came across and hope you can explain - in The Warden we have Mr Harding as a precentor at Barchester - what is a precentor? He is also described as a minor canon which I am assuming means he is not among the hierarchy of the church but what does 'canon' mean in this phrase? Also, do you know why Episcopal is spelled Episcopi - it appears to be referring to a particular church. And finally, what is or are 'beadesmen'?
This link has much to offer not only about Victorian life but in particular about Trollop and his novels. A great site to spend time rummaging through.
http://www.victorianweb.org/religion/denom1.html
(http://www.victorianweb.org/religion/denom1.html)
And on this page of everything Trollop, each line or title is a link to information - a gold mine...!
http://victorianweb.org/authors/trollope/index.html (http://victorianweb.org/authors/trollope/index.html)
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I believe the precentor is the cathedral choir director. In The Warden Mr Harding is credited with providing the best choral music in all England.
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Canterbury Cathedral
(https://78.media.tumblr.com/deb7570457d4dc9925f14bb5676a0a0a/tumblr_ox2m0sOROj1ueh8npo1_1280.png) |
The Archbishop of Canterbury is the senior bishop and principal leader of the Church of England, the symbolic head of the worldwide Anglican Communion and the diocesan bishop of the Diocese of Canterbury.
The line which goes back more than 1400 years to Augustine of Canterbury, the "Apostle to the English", sent from Rome in the year 597.
Since the English Reformation, the Church of England has been a state church and the choice of Archbishop of Canterbury is legally that of the Crown; today, made by the Queen on the advice of the Prime Minister, who receives a shortlist of two names from an ad hoc committee, the Crown Nominations Commission.
1848 to 1862 John Bird Sumner was Archbishop of Canterbury, (annual income £15,000). Married Marianne Robertson, 1803 in Bath. His wife's maternal grandfather was Francis Lewis (1713-1803), a New York signer of the Declaration of Independence.
Matthew Parker, Archbishop of Canterbury 1559 - 1575. Remember Wolf Hall - He was one of the Cambridge scholars whom Thomas Wolsey wished to transplant to his newly-founded 'Cardinal College' at Oxford. Parker declined Wolsey's invitation. After Anne Boleyn's recognition as queen he was made her chaplain.
Parker was one of the primary architects of the Thirty-Nine Articles, the defining statements of Anglican doctrine. The Parker collection of early English manuscripts include: St. Augustine Gospels and Version A of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, part of his effort to demonstrate that the English Church was historically independent from Rome, creating one of the world's most important collections of ancient manuscripts.
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aha - thanks Jonathan - perfect - a precentor is the cathedral choir director - and so we see Reverend Harding with his cello.
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Sorry, Pat. The question was directed to you.
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it was aimed at anyone who has an answer. I have some partial answers, but I just got in and am too tired to write. I'll answer tomorrow.
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Oh Pat thank you for reminding me of Cranford. What a great book that was, and I so enjoyed reading it feeling as if I had plopped myself right down in Victorian England. As a child I so loved having tea parties with my younger sister and all our dolls, so I will try to keep that spirit as I read Trollpe, although I have a feeling he is not nearly as gentle as Austen from what I am reading in the prior posts.
I believe the precentor is the cathedral choir director. In The Warden Mr Harding is credited with providing the best choral music in all England.
Jonathan, I am so glad you are with us to help decipher all the questions we have bumbling around in our heads. I like simplicity, so thank you for a simple answer to who the precentor is. I get lost when there is too much text written in posts, although at times my own posts can be wordy.
Welcome, youtb, pull yourself up a chair, choose your favorite English tea, and enjoy this book with us. We are indeed a congenial bunch, and so feel at ease say what ever comes to mind.
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Beadesmen: Bedesman, or beadsman (Med. Eng. bede, prayer, from O. Eng. biddan, to pray; literally "a man of prayer"; and from Anglo Saxon "bed") was generally a pensioner or almsman whose duty it was to pray for his benefactor.
A Bedesman (or Bedeswoman) in Medieval times worked in this Christian occupation attached to the crown and churches in Scotland and England. In general the task was to pray for souls listed on a bede-roll (pictured) represented by small items on a string called "bedes" (i.e. "prayers"). Souls who wished to be prayed for, secured their listing by giving alms, donations, or gifts.[2] Or, if a departed member of a guild, the Chaplain would add them to the roll for prayer post-mortem. When, in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the use of little perforated globes of bone, wood, or amber, threaded on a string, came into fashion for the purpose of counting the repetitions of the Our Father or Hail Mary, these objects themselves became known as bedes, later becoming known as "beads".[2]
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Norbury%2C_Derbyshire_-_bedesman.jpg/330px-Norbury%2C_Derbyshire_-_bedesman.jpg)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beadsman
As best as I can relate to his beads, is the Rosary us Catholics use for praying, as Our Lady of Fatima the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary said to pray, when she appeared 100 years ago, which we are celebrating this year. Interesting, looking at this picture it does remind me of myself, saying my nightly Rosary in my bed as I fall off to sleep. I tell my hubby, there are nights I must say the same bead five times because I dose off, wake up and begin it again...... I must confess, there are nights I don't make it through the entire Rosary, sleep takes over.
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A Minor Canon is a member of staff on the establishment of a cathedral or a collegiate church. In some foundations the post may be known as Priest-vicar.
Minor Canons are clergy and take part in the daily services but are not part of the formal Chapter.[2] They are sometimes, but not exclusively, more junior clergy, often chosen for their singing ability, who have already served a curacy normally in a parish church.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_Canon
Okay, now that I am knee deep in reading all these posts and responding to them, I realize I have to go prepare my lesson plan for my CCD class tonight, so off I go.....
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OK, here's my attempt to answer some Church organizational questions.
A living is a position in the church such as rector, vicar, curate, along with the income attached to it.If you own the living, you have the power to appoint someone to the position, or fill it yourself. The bishop of Barchester has the power to appoint some, but not all, of these livings in his diocese. In Jane Austen, most of the livings seem to be owned by local important landowners, and be inherited like any income-producing property. If there was no younger son in need of the position, someone could be appointed to fill it. Or the younger son could contract with a curate to do the work, and split the income with him. A man could hold more than one living, fill them all with others, and live on his share without doing any of the work.
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Here's some Anglican Church organization, mostly taken from the introduction in my copy of Barchester Towers (a 1963 paperback, with a cover price of 60 cents).
The highest officials of the church are the bishops, topped by two archbishops, of Canterbury and York, with Canterbury being slightly more powerful. The dioceses seem to coincide with shires, and each has its cathedral and bishop. The bishops are appointed by the King, or in this case the Queen, which means they are really appointed by the Prime Minister, so they are actually political appointments.
The bishops appoint ministers to some, but not all, of the parishes in the diocese, and here, the bishop of Barchester appoints the Warden, or superintendent of Hiram's Hospital almshouse.
To be continued.
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Just as Cranford tackled "the Woman Question" Barchester Towers. As "progress" was changing the role for nineteenth century women so it was chinking away at the very foundation of the Church of England. The Church of England was the Established Church, which means the queen (more Parliament at this time) was the head of the Church and all the people were taxed (tithed) to support the church. Enter the Industrial Revolution with created the new of the Upper Middle Class (factory owners, merchants, and others who grew very rich). Their wealth was beginning to equal that of the Aristocracy and they wanted to power that went with that wealth. They embraced individualism and began to join and support the Methodist Church which was more liberal in worship (they sang non traditional hymns and rejected the Book of Common Prayer.) Thus, Parliament was confronted with not only dissenters but those within the Church of England who wanted the Church to embrace the emotion and the spirit of joy they saw in the other denominations that were springing up. Now things really get confusing as a group of clergy and scholars at Oxford began to react to the growing desire for change in the established Church and began to issue Tracts that rejected evangelism both in and outside the Church and eventually appealed to the Church to move back to its Catholic roots pre-Henry VIII. All of these issues are discussed on the Victorian Web under religion: the Oxford Movement, the Catholic Emancipation Act and the ultimate disestablishment of the Church of England (no more universal tithing). In this novel Trollope deals with all these issues and more, but does so in a more entertaining and humerous way. At least I think so.
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I'm going to need all the help I can get keeping the various religious movements straight. Victorian Web, here I come.
Karen, I agree about the humor, though sometimes it can get rather dark. He starts it off in the very first chapter--ironic situation that would be funny but it's sad, and he plays it for all it's worth.
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Fabulous site Bellamarie about the Bedesman and the photo is wonderful - I just got lost in the site hitting one link after the other and am still shocked to learn so many words used today were from the Medieval -
The little chapels and side alters - that was fascinating - now it makes sense - I remember visiting many a large old church and not only were there many side alters, that at one time I even saw mass being said by a priest while the main mass was being said on the main alter - but more, I remember several that had boxes for offerings and since most of the side alters had a stand of votive candles I assumed it was the typical donation we made when we lighted candles but, I remember some having the offering box with no candles - it confused me but did not think too much more about it - now it makes sense - the offerings were supporting the owner of the side alter.
I knew we could depend on you Pat to fill us in on the hierarchy of the church. I have to look it up again but there was another word for a 'Living' that may have had a slightly different arrangement - need to find it again and see if you know what it is all about. Seems to me there is something in The Warden about someone who has several 'Livings' - again, I need to find it. Great call reminding Bellamarie and all of us about our reading Cranford.
Thank you, thank you Karen to pick up on Cranford and then really do such a wonderful job for us of summarizing the enormous change to the approved and legal religious affiliations and their impact on the Anglican Church.
Vaguely I am remembering studying about Cardinal Newman when I was in High School - had no idea that the Oxford Movement was such a big deal and became so popular after a couple of hundred years of Catholics having to hide in attics and basements. This entire reconciliation between the two expressions of Christian Faith came full circle during Vatican II in the 1960s when the Anglican–Catholic dialogue entered historical communication through their ecumenical relations.
Last I read, priests from the Anglican Church, even though married can practice and be assigned as parish clergy in Catholic Churches as Catholic Priests can request and be assigned to an Anglican Church which allows them to no longer keep the vow of Chastity.
I read today that Trollop lived for 10 years in Ireland while working for the Postal Service - I had no idea that he lived anyplace but in Britain - he even lived for a few years in Australia where one of his sons set up business that failed and Trollop had to go back to rescue him. I need to look again, something about the Irish benefiting and leading to Home Rule when the 1823 Catholic Emancipation was passed and that political change some how affected the association the Anglo Irish had with the Anglican Church.
And this direct from the Victorian Web site explains better than anything how the circumstances brought about the characterizations of the Anglican (High Church) clergy...
At the time of the birth of the Methodist movement in the late eighteenth century, there were 13,500 Anglican priests in England, but only 11,700 livings (fixed incomes derived from Church lands and tithes and attached to a particular parish) to support them, and many of the livings paid so poorly that many priests held more than one.
Some priests, too, thanks to political and social influence, controlled more than one of the wealthy livings.
In addition, the Church was far too dependent upon political and economic interests to reform itself: half of all livings were granted by landowners, and the government had the right to appoint all bishops, a number of prebends, and hundreds of livings, so that it is not exaggerating too much to say that the Church became, to a considerable degree, the preserve of the younger sons of members of the aristocracy who had little interest in religion and less interest in the growing numbers of urban poor.
There were, in consequence, over 6,000 Anglican parishes with no priests at all, and it was into this void that the Methodist evangelicals stepped.
And also Karen, you picked up on the Victorian Woman - we really see that played out when, as a wealthy widow, Reverend Harding's younger daughter is far more independent than most women, who when widowed not only return to their Father's house, who controls her but, were relegated to the lonely and isolating lowest level of the social hierarchy. The status of the wife was through the husband's work, wealth and status which we see played out by the Reverend Harding's eldest daughter, who is married to the Archdeacon. What a wonderful contrast in the same family with two sisters that Trollop feature for us.
Aha there it is Pat do you know what is a prebend as the quote from above, "a number of prebends" Hopefully someone here knows.
I am so excited - one of my grands is coming down from Lubbock for the weekend and will stay with me tomorrow night - he is attending ACL (Austin City Limits) a big deal annual music festival https://www.aclfestival.com/ (https://www.aclfestival.com/)
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I took the time this morning to watch this video. I am glad I did, because now I have a better understanding of the characters and it gave me such a good sense of the humor in the book. I think I will watch more of the videos available to help me better associate with this story. I was having a difficult time getting into the first chapters of Barchester Towers, and now I feel like I am ready to delve in. I do think we may be depicting and exploring much deeper into things than possibly necessary, and it could prevent us from enjoying the actual story..... but then again, this is what we tend to do!!
https://youtu.be/z5c9zNiDVJg
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When I first read Barchester Towers, sometime in the 1960s, I only knew a little of the background we're discussing now, and I enjoyed the book a lot. Anyone who doesn't want to be bothered with all this can still have fun with the book. But if you know it, you do get more of the fine points of what's going on.
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Church organization continued:
Taking care of a cathedral and its affairs, running a diocese, and looking out for all the individual parishes takes a lot of manpower, and the bishop only has partial control. The archdeacon is responsible for the church property in his territory, including the bishop's palace. The governing body of the cathedral is the chapter, headed by the dean. Deans are appointed by the Crown, hence are political appointments. The chapter is made up of canons. The canon in residence seems to control details like who preaches the sermons. One canon has charge of the music; he is called the precentor. Other clergy of the cathedral staff include prebendaries, minor canons, a vicar-choral, and the chancellor, who is the chief legal officer of the diocese. The verger takes care of the building.
The bishop's domestic chaplain acts as a sort of private secretary. Bishops become members of the House of Lords, so are addressed as "My lord".
The close is the cathedral precinct, and includes some housing for clergy, but the bishop's palace is outside of it.
That leaves a lot of unanswered questions, but it's what I could get by boiling down my introduction.
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Hi everyone!
Thanks for the Gutenberg link Barb, I’ve been really busy and haven’t even checked the library for a copy of the book, so getting it on line is a great help.
I don’t know how much of the book I’ll get into, but I’m fascinated by the lnks and comments you’ve already given about English history. I have a limited knowledge of it other than Henry II and Eleanor of Acquataine and Henry VIII and his wives and the reformation. I’ve mentioned before on SL that my ancestory includes 4 Scots-Irish Presbyterian brothers who escaped the religious battles to come to Pennsylvania in the early 18th century where they started 3 Presbyterian churches in central Pa. I’ll be curious to learn more about those battles and differences, and I love the Victorian period, so I’m looking forward to your discussion.
And oh yeah, to add further interest for me, I grew up in the Methodist Church and am now a member of a “progressive Baptist Church” - a term which my life experience until my 30s would have seemed an oxymoran........I knew about only “southern Baptists” or Baptists as conservatives. Although, the Baptist Church seems to be the least hierarchial of all those mentioned. Complicated! Complicated.
It might be interesting that the new movie about Queen Victoria starring Judy Dench will soon be out. It looks like it could be an Oscar win for her.
Welcome Nancy. If you like indepth, thoughtful discussions about books, you will enjoy this site.
Jean
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Jean, I just saw previews of the movie Queen Victoria that will be coming out. I really want to see it.
PatH., Thank you so much for giving us the pecking order of the different positions held in the church. Nowadays, we are lucky to have one Pastor and a Deacon in our church. We had to share our Bishop with Cleveland for a few months until a new one could be appointed. Poor Bishop Thomas had to be wore out just with the traveling it entailed.
Barb, Interesting facts you are posting. I can see why we have separation of church & government, after all the problems England had to deal with having their government so involved. I'm really enjoying the videos on Youtube. It's so much easier to enjoy a character when you can put a face to it.
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So glad Bellamarie the videos are bringing the characters alive for you - the first two are following The Warden while the remaining are following Barchester Towers - the actors in the series are Britian's best aren't they.
Ah Pat - you did it! You did it! - What a group of job titles - the verger is a new one on me, never heard the expression.
Great to see you Jean - hope you enjoy the read - and glad the Gutenberg works for you - In fact it was because of your post saying you were fascinated with the links and comments that gave me an opportunity to laugh out-loud - I went back to the beginning and reviewed as if I was joining the group and there it was - I knew I read it somewhere - I was asking Pat what was a prebend having read the word somewhere but could not remember where - and there it was, in one of Jonathan's first posts -
Now that we have looked into so much I must say Jonathan you quote packs so much more meaning.
Included in Pat's litany of titles there it is, Other clergy of the cathedral staff include prebendaries...
Happened on this bit of news that may have been the stimulus for this book - would have taken place just before Trollop wrote The Warden. "The first Oxford Movement church and scene of riots...St Barnabas Street, Pimlico...Church was consecrated on St Barnabas' Day amid considerable controversy caused by accusations of 'Popery in Pimlico'."
http://www.shadyoldlady.com/location.php?loc=2083 (http://www.shadyoldlady.com/location.php?loc=2083)
A few more tidbits that I found "The Church of England was the official church, established by law, which required, among other things, that everyone pay tithings to it even though they attended some other church. All wills, even for dissenters, had to be probated through the Church of England. This Church of England, or Anglican Church, also had a number of other privileges in law that other churches lacked, such as its bishops' being automatically members of the House of Lords.
You are so right Bellamarie - the mix of religion with the state is pervasive and very different than our outlook here in the states. Although, I was reading a few years ago in a Unitarian history how in the early days of this nation, every one paid a tax that supported the various religious churches and universities. Remember Harvard and Yale (originally Puritan) and Princeton (originally Presbyterian) were founded principally for the teaching and study of theology. It was when the Catholics moved into Maryland that there was major rebellion - Tax payers did not want tax money supporting the Catholics - that was the beginning of separation between Church and State in the US.
More tidbits... It seems long before Trollope wrote The Warden the Church was not only unpopular with many people, but Church and political leaders had been under strong attacks. By the time of the Barchester novels, this enmity against the Church was entering its second generation.
"It was difficult holding Confirmation classes together as candidates heard their spiritual instructors abused daily."
Economics was part of the dispute - Tradesmen and farmers were in competition with a Church that required more attendance and greater alms giving and the Market closed for Church Festivals where goods were sold that profited the Church and the observation of fasts during Lent and Advent were difficult for farmers. The Oxford movement was more lenient as was the Anglican Broad Church and the Anglican Low Church.
https://books.google.com/books/content?id=-OAmDAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&img (https://books.google.com/books/content?id=-OAmDAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&img)
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Hello to all. The youtube film posted by Bellemarie is very helpful. I was beginning to get bogged down with the characters.
I started with The Warden and enjoyed meeting up with the bedesmen living at the alms house. The 12 bedesmen/ maybe 12 apostles.
I cant imagine that concept in modern day but I think it is brilliant.
And a big thank you for the clergy title clarification...so much to take in
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Wheee another night owl - Yes Nancy, the youtube of the 1982 PBS series is a winner isn't it - they did a good job of capturing each character - I love Alan Rickman as Slope - they are all wonderful but he is a favorite.
Love it - 12 bedesmen / 12 apostles
OK more bits - the issue of the Broad Church the Low Church and the High Church - as I recall in the first chapters of The Warden there is a comment something about "not the Broad Church"
High Church essentially leaned toward Roman Catholic rites and was non-evangelical, and Low Church was both evangelical and more bare-bones Protestant. The High-Low Church division enters more into Barchester Towers than The Warden. After the death of Bishop Grantly, the contest both to become the new bishop and to dominate the diocese following the new bishop's election is between the Archdeacon Grantly High-church group and the Proudie/Slope Low-church group.
In real life during Trollope's time, some High-church Anglican dignitaries convert over to Roman Catholicism, with Newman and Manning becoming cardinals in that church.
High Church as a term starts being used in the 17th century, to describe people, who wanted to go on being as Catholic as possible, preserving many of the pre-Reformation traditions, stressing the sacraments and the authority of bishops - the Oxford Movement is extremely High Church. Newman published tracts to prove that the 39 Articles are compatible with Catholic theology and was very unpopular with the Evangelicals.
Low Church emphasis preaching, the centrality of the Bible and the importance of the Reformation.
The Broad Church attempts to avoid the fights between both these movements. Bishops weren't actually very keen on the Oxford Movement and they didn't like Biblical literalism either. They preferred to emphasis the comprehensiveness of the national Church of England, and to consider the results of contemporary scientific and historical study.
High Church, Broad Church, and Low Church — It is an Anglican commonplace to say that authority in the church has three sources: Scripture, Reason, and Tradition. In general, the Low churchman and Evangelical tend to put more emphasis on Scripture, the Broad churchman and Liberal on reason, and the High churchman and Anglo-catholic on tradition
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Ha - nothing simple about Christianity - one group scooting across here and other group starting up there and more groups each focusing on one aspect of the many...
I do not know about y'all but I sure have a better understanding of the Church of England / Anglican Church - now :D really fun or maybe a nightmare would be to further all this with how each was changed and switched and became specific when Presbyterians, Anglicans and Methodists took on a whole new face coming to America with our totally different political and Constitutional structure. Boggles the mind...
OK thought - we really need to use this opportunity to get to know Trollop - once we get into the story it will take over.
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The terms conservative and liberal keep coming up in the novel. They do not mean the same thing that the terms today mean. I thought this explanation might be helpful as background.
The words and concepts of Conservatism and Liberalism have changed in meaning since the nineteenth century. Modern conservatives want less government intervention in their lives, which is the exact opposite of what it meant to be a conservative in the nineteenth century. Another term for conservatism in this century is monarchism, as conservatives desired social stability through monarchical rule. Conservatives believed in tradition and hierarchy to govern over a nation. There were three main essential anchors of social harmony: Monarchy, Aristocracy and Church. They did not believe that all men were created equal, and that some men were in fact born greater than others. A nation has to have a wide reach into the lives of its citizens and that each nation was dedicated to increasing the power of the nation.
Liberals took another approach to the conservative thought of government intervention in its citizens’ lives. They believed that each individuals had inherent rights and every citizen should be able to work their way up in the social class of the nation. Their goal was complete economic, personal and political freedom. Liberals were made up of primarily the middle class. While the liberals sound like the good guys in the nineteenth century, it is important to keep in mind that they did not believe in giving power to women, the poor nor the uneducated. Conservatism vs Liberalism was a battle between monarchs and the middle class to gain power.
Western CivilizationII Guides
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Thanks Karen - in a nutshell it appears we have Conservatives wanting stability through Tradition and Liberals wanting individualism that also allows movement in the class structure. Sure fits our High Church and Low Church doesn't it...
Look here - anyone up for a walking tour... the Trollope Trail in Ireland... the website shows the map of the trail.
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/b2/fd/9d/b2fd9dd95a61887e2a17a1b9b3872d6f.jpg (https://i.pinimg.com/564x/b2/fd/9d/b2fd9dd95a61887e2a17a1b9b3872d6f.jpg)
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I'm planning to bake over the weekend and have my tea time sandwich fillings and cakes ready to enjoy while reading.
Haha found this - Perfect ;)
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/4f/35/ad/4f35ad94edeb6203f1b5bb083ff0fb92.jpg)
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Victorian Tea Cake
By: The Canadian Living Test Kitchen
(http://storage-cube.quebecormedia.com/v1/dynamic_resize?quality=75&size=1500x1500&src=http%3A%2F%2Fstorage-cube.quebecormedia.com%2Fv1%2Fcl_prod%2Fcanadian_living%2Ff8e15515-b8b6-44d6-a8b0-85ad689a2502%2FVictorian-Tea-Cake-Jam-Sponge-621407423672.jpg) | Ingredients:
1/2 cup unsalted butter softened
1 cup granulated sugar
2 eggs at room temperature
1/2 teaspoon vanilla
1 3/4 cup sifted cake-and-pastry flour
1 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
1 pinch salt
1/2 cup milk
icing sugar
Filling :
2/3 cups whipping cream
1/2 cup strawberry jam
Grease and flour 8- or 9-inch (1.2 or 1.5 L) round metal cake pan; line bottom with parchment paper. Set aside.
In large bowl, beat butter until light and pale, about 2 minutes. Beat in sugar, 3 tbsp (45 mL) at a time, beating for 30 seconds after each addition, about 2 minutes. Beat in eggs, 1 at a time, beating well after each. Beat in vanilla.
In separate bowl, whisk together flour, baking powder and salt; sift into butter mixture alternately with milk, making 3 additions of dry ingredients and 2 of milk. Scrape into prepared pan.
Bake in 350 F (180 C) oven until cake tester inserted in center comes out clean, 30 to 35 minutes. Let cool in pan on rack for 10 minutes. Turn out onto rack; peel off paper. Let cool.
Filling: In bowl, whip cream. Invert cake onto platter. Using long serrated knife, cut in half horizontally. Spread with jam; top with cream. Replace top of cake. Sift icing sugar over top.
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Ushering in and Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers
Our First Week, October 9 - October 15
Discussing, Chapter I through Chapter 9
Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.
Trollope writes a story as a dance with all the complexity suggested by the details.
The Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community are hilarious, absurd, introduced with usual detachment, even contempt: however, we find they stand for old hospitality, bonds, loyalty, and the countryside of Trollop's Britain.
"— Mr Harding stands for – outward beauty, even ritual for its own sake, and he is egalitarian – “all porters and stokers and guards and brakesman ought to be able to go to church”. The stopping of fun and travel on the one day a week Victorians had off a bete noire of most novelists."
| (http://68.media.tumblr.com/c3fbeac26bb651a2a13271875b142294/tumblr_mw9sczbxs61qa02k0o1_1280.jpg) |
A few questions to help pull us in ---
1] The question of choosing a new Bishop is not based on merit but an act of political chance. What is the real struggle that is at play naming the new Bishop?
2] What interesting detail did you learn about the Archdeacon Grantly
3] Which of the newspapers mentioned have a more liberal slant?
4] What interesting and relevant details do we learn about Dr. Proudie and his wife.
5] After reviewing the first paragraphs of each of our 9 chapters, how do they each open the tone of the chapters? Were the first paragraphs written as a Teaser, Autobiographical, Conversational, Announcing Facts, or Setter a Scene.
6] What story line does Trollop use to introduce the scope of Archdeacon Grantly's responsibilities to the Cathedral?
7] What is the nature of oppostion between Dr. Grantly and Mr. Slope
8] What message does Dr. Stanhope's character represent explaining the traditional High Church
9] What are some of the more beautiful sounding sentences.
10] What sentences have you found that are a pithy of words of wisdom?
The schedule for our discussion starting on Monday, October 8:
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 35, Miss Thorne's Fête Champêtre
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 36, Ullathorne Sports - Act I - to - Chapter 43, Mr and Mrs Quiverful are made happy Mr. Slope is encouraged by the Press
Nov. 12 - 18 --- Chapter 44, Mrs Bold at Home - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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youtb, I am so glad you went to the video, and feel a bit less bogged down. I too found it difficult to get into the book, but after watching the videos and being able to place faces with names it has helped me as well.
MKaren, Thanks so much for mentioning the differences in conservatism and liberalism in this era. Well now this was a real hoot to learn:
Liberals were made up of primarily the middle class. While the liberals sound like the good guys in the nineteenth century, it is important to keep in mind that they did not believe in giving power to women, the poor nor the uneducated.
My how things are so much more different than what we would see as liberals here in the U.S. today. And Conservatives want less government involvement today. Okay, that's all the politics I will even attempt to address while reading this book.
Barb, your recipe makes me want to bake.....only I am addicted to pumpkin spice this time of year, I have all the ingredients to back pumpkin spice bread!
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Laughed at this
“Bishop Grantly died as he had lived, peaceably, slowly, without pain and without excitement. The breath ebbed from him almost imperceptibly, and for a month before his death it was a question whether he were alive or dead.”
Seems to me only someone who has most things in life taken care of for him - like a bishop - could fit that description. ;)
Also, in the first pages he mentioned “Lazarus” at Oxford. I tried to look that up, but got only this picture of a chapel that is labelled “New College.” Can anyone explain it further? Maybe it’s not important, but caught my eye and brain.
https://www.oxforduniversityimages.com/wmpix/new/000/new000013-01-The%20Chapel%20and%20organ%20loft%20New%20College%20Oxford.jpg
Jean
Jean
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Jean, Lazarus is a fictional Oxford college... the irony is it is named after the beggar in Luke 16: 19
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016
Sir Lamada Mewnew and Sir Omicron Pie are named after five successive letters in the Greek alphabet: lambda, mu, nu, omicron and pi.
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Jean the killing of cats refers to Westward Ho! by Charles Kingsley, "More ways of killing a cat than choking her with cream"
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Sir Lamada Mewnew and Sir Omicron Pie are named after five successive letters in the Greek alphabet: lambda, mu, nu, omicron and pi.
Very clever, isn't it? Reminded me of the book title "Ella Minnow Pea" (but I can't remember what it was about)
It took a while for me to get into the rhythm of Trollope's writing. Helps to kind of "read it aloud in my head".
I've decided I need to take notes to help me remember characters and their connections.
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Great Idea Callie - soon it will all flow but to start there are many characters - amazing how simple names have a symbolic story behind them that fits the overall story Trollop is telling.
Our discussion of the book will start on Monday so enjoy your weekend reading away the chapters for the week - so much to talk about in just these first chapters -
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Found this Jean-Paul Satre quote that I love as an ironic remark about the characters in this story... "I have no need for good souls: an accomplice is what I wanted." Electra to her brother Orestes, Act 2
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Callie, I had the same trouble with characters. My yellowed paperback has the list in the front I made when I first read it, but I'm making a new one too.
Barb--love your Sartre.
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(http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/image/LifeWayChristianResources/bible-journaling-summer-470x265?scl=1&fmt=jpg&qlt=100)
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Barb, I actually am going to buy myself a Bible that has the side for taking notes. Wouldn't it be great to have books like this?
Callie, a book called, "Ella Minnow Pea" as in the alphabet L, M, N, O, P. How clever!
Barb, So Lazarus is a fictional Oxford college, just as Barchester is a fictional town in England. And the character Mr. Quiverfull:
The character's name is inspired by Psalm 127: "Children are a heritage from the Lord…Like arrows in the hands of a warrior…Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them."[4]
Seems our Mr. Trollpe not only has a sense of humor, but also is taking from the Bible for his book.
I too am having a problem with keeping up with the characters so here is a cheat sheet to help us along our way:
Characters of the novel:
The High Church faction
Archdeacon Grantly, Dr Theophilus Grantly, is the son of the former Bishop of Barchester, Dr Grantly senior, who dies at the start of the novel. Married to Susan Harding, he has three sons (Charles James, Henry, and Samuel) and two daughters (Florinda and Griselda) and lives at Plumstead Episcopi. His sister-in-law is Mrs Eleanor Bold, née Harding.
Mrs Susan Grantly, Mr Harding's elder daughter and the Archdeacon's wife.
Mr Septimus Harding is the meek, elderly precentor of Barchester and Rector of the church of St. Cuthbert's near the Cathedral Close. He was formerly Warden of Hiram's Hospital, but resigned in The Warden.
Mr Francis Arabin, vicar of St Ewold, Fellow of Lazarus College and former professor of poetry at Oxford University. He is a former follower of John Henry Newman and adheres to the High Church faction of the Anglican Church. Arabin is sought out by Dr Grantly as an ally against the evangelical faction of Bishop Proudie, his wife and chaplain Obadiah Slope.
Dr Gwynne, Master of Lazarus College, another ally.
The Low Church faction
Bishop Proudie, a henpecked, weak-willed bishop who is constantly influenced by his wife Mrs Proudie and his chaplain Obadiah Slope concerning the matters of the see.
Mrs Olivia Proudie, his wife. A proud, vulgar, domineering wife, who promotes evangelical causes such as Sunday schools, and is adamant in eliminating high-church rituals.
Mr Obadiah Slope, a wheedling oily chaplain who has much influence over Bishop Proudie. Midway in the novel Slope decides that he will marry Mrs Eleanor Bold (née Harding), and sets about courting her. Formerly Mrs Proudie's ally, he comes into conflict with Mrs Proudie over the wardenship of Hiram's Hospital and she regards him as a traitor. The narrator speculates that he is a lineal descendant of Doctor Slop from the novel Tristram Shandy.
Others
Mrs Eleanor Bold, widow of John Bold with an infant son. She is Mr Septimus Harding's younger daughter. She has three potential suitors in Barchester Towers: Mr Obadiah Slope, Mr Bertie Stanhope and Mr Francis Arabin.
Dr Vesey Stanhope is the rector of Crabtree Canonicorum and of Stogpingum, both in the diocese of Barchester and a prebendary of Barchester Cathedral. He and his family lived for twelve years in Italy before being recalled by Bishop Proudie on Obadiah Slope's advice. He has two daughters, Charlotte and Madeline, and a son, Bertie (Ethelbert).
Signora Madeline Vesey Neroni née Madeline Stanhope is the beautiful younger daughter of Dr Vesey Stanhope. Lamed by her abusive Italian husband, she is a cripple who needs to be carried around the house on a sofa, although it does not stop her constantly flirting with all men. She has a young daughter.
Ethelbert "Bertie" Stanhope is the only son of Dr Vesey Stanhope. An idling, carefree man who never settles down in anything he does, although he is a gifted artist, and who borrows and spends a great deal and earns nothing. His sister Charlotte advises him to woo the rich and beautiful widow Eleanor Bold.
Charlotte Stanhope is the polymath elder daughter of Dr Vesey Stanhope; she challenges Eleanor Bold to comment on the theological arguments concerning intelligent life on other worlds as presented by William Whewell and David Brewster.[3] She is the manager of the family and a good friend of Eleanor Bold until Eleanor realises Charlotte is the primary instigator of her brother wooing her.
Mr Quiverful, a poor clergyman with 14 children who becomes the new Warden of Hiram's Hospital. [a]
Mrs Letty Quiverful, his wife.
Wilfred Thorne, the squire of St Ewold's. A bachelor of about fifty who comes under the charms of Signora Neroni.
Miss Monica Thorne, his spinster sister of about sixty, who is an extreme traditionalist. She throws a party at their residence for the notables of Barsetshire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barchester_Towers
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The Victorian cake looks delicious. Will write the recipe down. Have read many of the posts. Wonderful.
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Welcome hats!!! Please stick around and give us your thoughts on Trollpe and his satire. That cake sure does look yummy!! I have an enormous sweet tooth, even when I know I should resist.
The clock is ticking down til we begin our discussion..... tick, tock, tick, tock.
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Bellamarie how is watching the Youtube of the 1982 PBS series of Barchester Chronicles coming along - finally read that it was the highlights they depict and the character Slope is written to look different than the Alan Rickman version. So it appears we are in for much more of this story as we read.
That was a great list of characters by name. Miss seeing the name of Mr. Bold but of course he died - that exchange with him getting the story for the newspaper I thought so like today. It's all about getting the story regardless guilt or innocence and then shaming the unaware.
Pat you have your yellowed copy with the list of characters - how wonderful is that...
Hats so glad to see you peek in - hope you can join us - the book is online if you would like to read along with us this fall.
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We are two years after the fact - 2015 was the two hundred years since the birth of Trollop and in honor the magazine The New Yorker ran this article about Trollop.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/04/trollope-trending (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/04/trollope-trending)
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Barb, I agree, Mr. Harding was wrongly accused, and it was very sad how the signers went along to bring him down for the sake of greed, and the newspaper was the primary source of spreading the falsehood. "Fake News" like today. It seems the relationship between Slope and Eleanor was also damaged from the attempt to take down her father. Some things never change. I so liked Mr. Harding, in the video. I noticed Sarah, in the video The Warden, who seems to meddle in everyone's affairs, and plays matchmaker, is not on this list of characters as well. I have not completed watching all the series so maybe I will find out what happened to her. She seemed to be crippled, always sitting in a chair as visitors came to her home.
The New Yorker article is a great find!
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Goodness - the man wrote 47 novels plus short stories and other articles - whew...
Here is the link to the Trollope Society --- https://trollopesociety.org/
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Barb, off the subject but..... FYI "Ella Minnow Pea" https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-9673701-6-3 (https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-9673701-6-3)
I'm in Chapter 6 of "...Barchester" and the character relationships are beginning to come together.
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Haha I wonder Callie if Ella Minnow Pea was written before tweets took off - looks like published in 2001 but do not remember when tweets became the thing, where so many words became letters. Drives me crazy with all the abbreviations and the only clue being the first letter of the word. It is like a second language.
My grandson just left after being here for 3 days to attend ACL - he had a great time, super bands and last night they stayed out really late going to 6th street where they heard more music - and I am in tears - I did not realize how much I miss doing all the little things for someone like making up a bed and preparing meals and and and - I used to at least fix a weekly meal for my good friend that we shared on Wednesday evening but now it is only me - but it was more than fixing meals - the automatic thinking that goes with caring for someone's comfort - I also realize I just speak aloud whatever is going through my head - and so I ramble about things that have no interest to anyone - oh dear - need to get out more and not just for work that has its own language. Makes Reverend Harding's bowing his non existent cello easy to understand - alone and when he is thinking I bet he puts his thoughts to the tempo of music and it is such a habit he does it unconsciously.
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I had to crack up watching The Warden, when Mr. Harding had only his bow and was using his arm as instrument, while he was being spoken to. Barb, you should consider taking in an exchange student. Or would that be too intrusive?
Callie, good for you! I’m still having a difficult time on the first few chapters.
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Ushering in and Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers
Our First Week, October 9 - October 15
Discussing, Chapter I through Chapter 9
Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.
Trollope writes a story as a dance with all the complexity suggested by the details.
The Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community are hilarious, absurd, introduced with usual detachment, even contempt: however, we find they stand for old hospitality, bonds, loyalty, and the countryside of Trollop's Britain.
"— Mr Harding stands for – outward beauty, even ritual for its own sake, and he is egalitarian – “all porters and stokers and guards and brakesman ought to be able to go to church”. The stopping of fun and travel on the one day a week Victorians had off a bete noire of most novelists."
| (http://68.media.tumblr.com/c3fbeac26bb651a2a13271875b142294/tumblr_mw9sczbxs61qa02k0o1_1280.jpg) |
A few questions to help pull us in ---
1] The question of choosing a new Bishop is not based on merit but an act of political chance. What is the real struggle that is at play naming the new Bishop?
2] What interesting detail did you learn about the Archdeacon Grantly
3] Which of the newspapers mentioned have a more liberal slant?
4] What interesting and relevant details do we learn about Dr. Proudie and his wife.
5] After reviewing the first paragraphs of each of our 9 chapters, how do they each open the tone of the chapters? Were the first paragraphs written as a Teaser, Autobiographical, Conversational, Announcing Facts, or Setter a Scene.
6] What story line does Trollop use to introduce the scope of Archdeacon Grantly's responsibilities to the Cathedral?
7] What is the nature of oppostion between Dr. Grantly and Mr. Slope
8] What message does Dr. Stanhope's character represent explaining the traditional High Church
9] What are some of the more beautiful sounding sentences.
10] What sentences have you found that are a pithy of words of wisdom?
The schedule for our discussion starting on Monday, October 8:
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 35, Miss Thorne's Fête Champêtre
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 36, Ullathorne Sports - Act I - to - Chapter 43, Mr and Mrs Quiverful are made happy Mr. Slope is encouraged by the Press
Nov. 12 - 18 --- Chapter 44, Mrs Bold at Home - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Good Morning, Barbara. Right now I am in my Latin class, but I will be back. I just will quickly say that I love the narrator. His comments on the charcters and the events in the text add another dimension to the story. He talks directly to the reader and is not an objective bystander. For instance in paragraph 4 of chapter 1, we learn that in the narrator's eyes Bishop Grantly's mirrors his life; "for a month before his death, it was a question whether he were alive or dead." More later.
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Good Monday morning Barb et al
I am also in Latin this am BUT I keep getting pulled back to Barchester (don't let Ginny know) just kidding.
The opening paragraphs are Teasers and scene setters, Each chapter opens with some excitement that lures the reader in. I find myself saying What! What! and laughing out loud. Maybe I just love the gossip of it ;D
Have to add: Thanks to the Mr Slope,"Apoplexy" must be a common ailment among the clergy and the congregation
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The anxiety Dr. Grantly has over the speed of his father, the Bishop's death reminds me of what it must be like to be Prince Charles. Here he is at age 68 and his mother, Queen Elizabeth is still going strong.
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Ha Ha funny - both Karen and Nancy not playing hooky but sneaking out of class - love it...
I too am trying to decide how Trollop makes this story a laugh outloud - I'm thinking part of it is his use of words that come across as dry humor rather than the flowery vocabulary of the Victorians.
I love what he lists as "the strongest points of baby perfection". Strongest points, can you believe? And so, the child is considered 'delightful' because - "he took his food with a will, struck out his toes merrily whenever his legs were uncovered, and did not have fits." I wonder what entailed having a fit? OH my, I guess just being a baby is not enough - oh oh oh... ::)
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This is going to be fun. Right on, Nancy. It's gossip from cover to cover. The author is definitely out to charm his readers. Make confidantes out of them. What nicer way to do it than by kissing the babies. Latin was a passion with him. Caesar was the greatest man who ever lived. The Latin poets were divine. He admits to knowing nothing about Church matters or what goes on in a Cathedral Close, but found wandering about Salisbury Cathedral very inspiring. And he does find that putting his people into moral quandaries makes for a great story.
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MKaren, interestly you bring up how you like the narrator. I was a bit inquinsitive as to exactly who the narrator is, which of course led me down the rabbit whole like Alice, to satisfy myself. I found this which helped confirm what I too was feeling about the narrator and the author.
Trollope also makes use in his narrator of a subtle literary device that has become increasingly common over the last century or so. This is the so-called "style indirecte libre", by the use of which a narrator can move from third-person narrative to an internal viewpoint of a protagonist or to external commentary or description without the use of verbs that would mark these transitions, thus blurring the lines between narrator and protagonist and leaving uncertain where the omniscient narrator's viewpoint ends and that of the character begins.
http://www.writework.com/book-guides/barchester-towers-anthony-trollope/narration
So it seems Trollope not only could not resist injecting himself as the narrator, but I also read in my search we find a bit of himself in some of his characters. Was he a bit of a narcissist? I mean taking on writing about the Church of England, appointments within the hierarchy, and the government is not for the fain of heart. I am finding myself liking him very much so.
Jonathan and Barb, we were posting at the same time. Yes, I had to giggle about Karen and Nancy peeking in while in Latin class. Shhh.... we won't tell on them.
Jonathan, as always you have a way with words that seems to get right to the heart of it. Who can resist gossip? Not me for sure!
Poor Archdeacon Grantley, of course he would expect to be the next Bishop. And no, I did not see him as sinful, overachieving, or over expecting a position that seemed to belong to him. (I hope you can hear my jest in this. ;D ;D) I mean sitting beside his dying father hoping he would just give in and give up and die already. ;D ;D
I began reading the book online and was able to dive right in. Maybe there is something to be said about a yellow paged used, somewhat dowdy book cover and page...... it sure was not captivating me at all. The bright light, white pages of my ipad text just seemed to make me want to keep on going even when my eyes were tired and wanted to stop a bit. Technology....don't cha just love it!
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Jonathan, both you and Nancy see Trollop as Entertainment Tonight - who gets cut - who takes their feud to the next level - the tearful most memorable week - He plays fast and furious - she claims - I fulfilled all my dreams - all the actual headlines from today's Entertainment Tonight that can easily be applied to Barchester Chronicles ... you both nailed it and so funny.
owww yes, Bellamarie - the narrator is not a third-person but an the internal viewpoint of an external commentator/protagonist 'blurring the lines between narrator and protagonist' - you nailed that one for us...
Like you Bellamarie, I thought Archdeacon Grantly appeared over the top waiting for death to take his father - he appeared in my mind's eye every bit the typecast for the PBS series acted by Nigel Hawthorne - but then, having forgotten for a few moments Nigel Hawthorne's characterization I felt sympathy for what I saw as a softened and wounded Archdeacon after his hearing in the Cathedral, Slope preach what amounted to an extreme liberal and low church sermon. Within the bounds of decency he was limited in how to stop Slope and so, the chess games begin. Between the two, I guess I understand bluster over what I call, oily manipulation.
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9] What are some of the more beautiful sounding sentences.
I have to give Trollope high marks for these paragraphs, while reading them I felt like I was reading Shakespeare's words of loved & lost:
Chapter 2
Poor Eleanor! I cannot say that with me John Bold was ever a favourite. I never thought him worthy of the wife he had won. But in her estimation he was most worthy. Hers was one of those feminine hearts which cling to a husband, not with idolatry, for worship can admit of no defect in its idol, but with the perfect tenacity of ivy. As the parasite plant will follow even the defects of the trunk which it embraces, so did Eleanor cling to and love the very faults of her husband.
Could she even have admitted that he had a fault, his early death would have blotted out the memory of it. She wept as for the loss of the most perfect treasure with which mortal woman had ever been endowed; for weeks after he was gone the idea of future happiness in this world was hateful to her; consolation, as it is called, was insupportable, and tears and sleep were her only relief.
But God tempers the wind to the shorn lamb. She knew that she had within her the living source of other cares. She knew that there was to be created for her another subject of weal or woe, of unutterable joy or despairing sorrow, as God in his mercy might vouchsafe to her.
And then to read on and learn she is pregnant with John Bold's son....... simply astounding!
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Yes Bellamarie and also that whole bit describing the baby and the child's relationship with its mother is a wonderful almost stand alone essay isn't it.
Interesting how Trollop introduces each character as if almost a vignette and spent so much time and attention describing a baby with the attention as if a main character - need to look at that again - I wonder if there is a message overlooked - because I cannot see how the child will have a future part in the story - maybe there is some symbolism going on - at most the child can affect how Eleonore sees her role although, I get the impression being left a financially comfortable widow has a greater impact in the story.
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'I get the impression being left a financially comfortable widow has a greater impact in the story.'
You are so right, Barb. John Bold the Younger has played his role when he assuages the sorrow of his mother. In the author's own words: 'The baby, as a baby, was all that was delightful, and I cannot forsee that it will be necessary for us to inquire into the facts of his after life.'
What an author! Make a note of the 'us'. The reader is asked to get involved. Thanks, Bellamarie, for the information about Trollope's unusual narrative style. But how can you jest at a time like this? The Archdeacon felt so sinful he threw himself down on his knees at the bedside of his dying father. And then there was the guilt trip put on Mr Harding by John Bold Senior. But that's a different story. How could Eleanor love him?
These cathedral closes seem like such calm, sanctimonious places, and here we find a lot of disquiet. In fact Chapter 4 is titled 'War'. I hope it's not a spoiler, but I get the sense that it's all about power: The story is a cautionary tale for men, and a manual for women. Mark my words.
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Anyone here able to tell us what this means: 'nolo episcopari'? Is it a part of the archdeacon's spiritual turmoil? Page 8
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Hope tto be able to joina. Am struggling with a new device. Sometimes it. let's e post, sometimes not.
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Wikipedia says:
The Latin expression nolo episcoparii is the traditional formal refusal made by a cleric in the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches of an offer as appointment as a bishop.
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HURRAY Joan - wonderful - looking forward to your addition - so glad to see you - Understand you moved - hope you new home is coming together - but please, kick up your heels because here you are back home among us... tra la... a toast of Welcome Home Joan...
Jonathan your comment about imagining a 'calm, sanctimonious' atmosphere of the close quickly reminded me of my childhood so I had to laugh out loud - there was a radio program that used to scare us - it was a take off from a comic book figure - dadada dah and with a flutter in our tummies followed by a tingly sensation, sitting on the edge of the sofa with an eye for our safety net, parents in the kitchen, the opening music announced, "The Shadow" - the intro voice always included - "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men..." ta ta ta dumm --- hehehaha delicious...
The wonder is, there is hardly any action - the only things that happen, in 9 chapters, other than an in-depth description using vignettes of behavior to introduce each character is, Old Dr Grantly dies - a baby wiggles its toes - the new Bishop and his wife and Reverend Slope arrive - Slope offends the parishioners with his severity - Grantly takes action against Slope enlisting the help of the town's clergy - Mary, sister-in-law to Eleanore and Eleanore visit Slope - an absentee clergymen, Stanhope arrives in Barchester after a 12 year absence bringing with him his family, including his younger married daughter, La Signora Neroni.
Not exactly the stuff of great conquest or grand adventure like, The Tigers of Mompracem, nor is Barchester a place filled with Dickinsonian petty thieves and criminals, no one comes throbbing off the page. In Barchester only gentle poverty contrasting layered Victorian swish pulls us into a world where a coup is the nuance description of who gets what and the height of daring is a glib thought satirizing the sentiments of another character.
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Great Karen for finding the meaning for nolo episcopari - just to add a bit - as I understand from Sister Rose Imelda in 8th grade... its meaning is more nuanced - like Trollop ;) - it is a polite refusal like refusing the offer of a piece of cake or a cookie till you are urged more than once - we no longer practice those manners that were all built around subterfuge - no wonder folks cannot figure out politics any longer they lost track of the manners of their grandparents and think the world should be about truth - but then whose truth - Oh dear another can of worms - 8) I'll take the manners of subterfuge - at least I understood the rules ;D
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Barb, you mentioned what I myself was thinking in saying, “The wonder is there is hardly any action.
It is a bit frustrating reading these chapters with little to no conversations taking place. Our narrator does all the talking, in describing the characters by telling us The Who, what, where, when and why of each of them. I do hope we get to hear words spoken by the characters soon. As I was reading these chapters, I couldn’t help but wonder, how did they manage to make a movie from non speaking characters. Ho hum....
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Joan it is so good to see you pop in!!! I do hope you figure out your new device so you are able to post. Your insight always is so interesting. I just hate it when I have to figure out new devices. My hubby went from an old iphone to a Samsung phone and I can not figure out how to use it at all. I will stay will my apple iphone til it no longer works.
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H0 hum.... No action. No talk. But who needs words, when you can say it all, and control all, with eyes like Madame Neroni's:
'Her eyes were long and large, (p67) and marvellously bright; might I venture to say, bright as Lucifer's, I should perhaps best express the depth of their brilliancy. They were dreadful eyes to look at, such as would absolutely deter any man of quiet mind and easy spirit from attempting a passage of arms with such foes. There was talent in them, and the fire of passion and the play of wit, but there was no love. Cruelty was there instead, and courage, a desire of masterhood, cunning, and a wish for mischief. And yet, as eyes, they were very beautiful. The eyelashes were long and perfect, and the long, steady, unabashed gaze, with which she would look into the face of her admirer, fascinated while it frightened him. She was a basilisk from whom an ardent lover of beauty could make no escape.'
Yes, I remember the thrill of hearing, 'What evil lurks in the hearts of men'. Or the eyes of women? Was it Madame Neroni's eyes which provoked the misfortune which crippled her? Are they going to get her into more trouble?
It's just wonderful to hear from you, Joan.
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Jonathan, great find! The eyes do indeed say it all.....
I was just talking with my hubby yesterday about how the children of today do not seem to respect their parents, teachers or persons of authority, and how when we were raising our children all I had to do is give them "the look" and they knew instantly, I meant business. No words needed indeed. In today's world, I think there are too many words, and not enough action.
I must say I finally found an actual dialogue among the characters in the book in chapter 5, A Morning Visit. Imagine as far back as the 18th Century, they are discussing the subject of whether they should shut down trains on the Sabbath, so the employees could have the Sunday off to go to church:
I fear there is a great deal of Sabbath traveling here," said he. "On looking at the 'Bradshaw' I see that there are three trains in and three out every Sabbath. Could nothing be done to induce the company to withdraw them? Don' you think, Dr. Grantly, that a little energy might diminish the evil?"
"Not being a director, I really can't say. But if you can withdraw the passengers, the company I dare say will withdraw the trains," said the doctor. "It's merely a question of dividends."
"But surely, Dr. Grantly," said the lady; "surely we should look at it differently. You and I, for instance, in our position: surely we should do all that we can to control so grievous a sin. Don't you think so, Mr. Harding?" and she turned to the precentor, who was sitting mute and unhappy.
Mr. Harding thought that all porters and stokers, guards, brakesmen, and pointsmen ought to have an opportunity of going to church, and he hoped that they all had.
"But surely, surely," continued Mrs. Proudie, "surely that is not enough. Surely that will not secure such an observance of the Sabbath as we are taught to conceive is not only expedient but indispensable; surely--"
Today, there is a discussion of allowing employees off for holidays like Thanksgiving, to spend with their families. Having Sundays off to go to church would be unthinkable, I mean let's face it, the church pews are less and less filled. Just asking my CCD students how many attend church on Sunday, I am lucky to get one student raise their hand.
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Ushering in and Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers
Our First Week, October 9 - October 15
Discussing, Chapter I through Chapter 9
Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.
Trollope writes a story as a dance with all the complexity suggested by the details.
The Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community are hilarious, absurd, introduced with usual detachment, even contempt: however, we find they stand for old hospitality, bonds, loyalty, and the countryside of Trollop's Britain.
"— Mr Harding stands for – outward beauty, even ritual for its own sake, and he is egalitarian – “all porters and stokers and guards and brakesman ought to be able to go to church”. The stopping of fun and travel on the one day a week Victorians had off a bete noire of most novelists."
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A few questions to help pull us in ---
1] The question of choosing a new Bishop is not based on merit but an act of political chance. What is the real struggle that is at play naming the new Bishop?
2] What interesting detail did you learn about the Archdeacon Grantly
3] Which of the newspapers mentioned have a more liberal slant?
4] What interesting and relevant details do we learn about Dr. Proudie and his wife.
5] After reviewing the first paragraphs of each of our 9 chapters, how do they each open the tone of the chapters? Were the first paragraphs written as a Teaser, Autobiographical, Conversational, Announcing Facts, or Setter a Scene.
6] What story line does Trollop use to introduce the scope of Archdeacon Grantly's responsibilities to the Cathedral?
7] What is the nature of oppostion between Dr. Grantly and Mr. Slope
8] What message does Dr. Stanhope's character represent explaining the traditional High Church
9] What are some of the more beautiful sounding sentences.
10] What sentences have you found that are a pithy of words of wisdom?
The schedule for our discussion starting on Monday, October 8:
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 35, Miss Thorne's Fête Champêtre
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 36, Ullathorne Sports - Act I - to - Chapter 43, Mr and Mrs Quiverful are made happy Mr. Slope is encouraged by the Press
Nov. 12 - 18 --- Chapter 44, Mrs Bold at Home - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Whew - something about AT&T and the entire city was affected - took literally minutes to just write an email - every few words and everything would stop for about 30 seconds then the next 3 or if lucky 4 words - on and on all day - regardless email or posting on any website - it was all our servers - some who like me, work from home finally just closed down - And so our latest may be invisible currents bringing us an entire new way using this technology while in Victorian Britain the latest was combustion and mechanical technology with trains the most recent way for laborers to finally take their family on a picnic the one day, or for some the only half day, they had off a week -
I remember my father working 6 days a week as a normal work week and only after WWII did he get half day on Saturday and within 2 or 3 years all day Saturday. Growing up I remember he usually slept in on Sunday while Mom went to 6:00 Mass and when we started school my sister and I went to the children's mass at 9:00 - He often picked up up from Mass at around 10: then we walked down and picked up my Aunt, his sister, at the German Lutheran church and we all went back home to dinner on the table.
Today the empty Churches Bellamarie - I wonder is it technology or maybe, and I am just wondering - there is a change in our population - we are just barely over 50% white - the traditional 'white' mostly with European connection churches did not do much to adapt to the customs and thinking of the Brown folks and there are many others who practice different religions - but then the same cry is among the Jewish community unless they are among the really conservative wearing distinctive clothing - like the book we read this summer, the children of those who retired at Venice Beach were not weekly attending their synagogues.
Thanks for keeping things alive Bellamarie and Jonathan -
Jonathan your quote about Madame Neroni got me started before the computer became impossible yesterday. I was intrigued with her and the name Madame Neroni's - The Neroni it seems is the Albanian spelling for Nero - and there are large swaths of Italy with a huge Albanian population that goes back to the Middle Ages - wars with Turkey and other upheavals - in the area of Naples and Venice is where the Albanian nobility is found - there is a strong patriarchal viewpoint and laws to support this viewpoint including that if a wife displeases a husband he is allowed to kill her. Wow - and still on the books evidently - and so I wondered about the back story on Madame Neroni whose husband was supposedly abusive - by British standards he probably was but if the name does suggest this Albanian heritage then Madeline would be happy to be alive and easily, I can see her sultry ways as not just hiding her pain and shame but showing to herself she is still an attractive women. Her dressing being more colorful and elaborate would also fit the colorful ethnic dress of Albanians.
All and all, the Circus of Nero is more often shown as the Circus of Neroni - Nero we know for fiddling while Rome burned but there is more to the story - Something to do with switching blame from Christians, who could do nothing right during the reign of several preceding Emperors, to the Jews where the fire started. And so, I can see Madame Neroni as the spark or fire in the middle of this tug between the traditional conservative High Church and the liberal Low Church represented in Slope.
Here is a bit about Nero translated from an Italian-Albanian web site.
Nero is a Roman emperor whom we all want to hate, and not without reason. He was a neat administrator, and was surrounded by skilled people, including his tutor - the Seneca writer. However, he was a ruthless killer, beginning with the murder of his half-brother, who was supposed to share power. Continuing with his wife, Oktavia, whom she abandoned for his girlfriend Poppaea, and then executed for adultery. Perhaps to love his girlfriend he killed his mother, after a conspiracy went badly to kill him with a boat, was beaten to death. Later he killed the girlfriend after a moment of anger, while she was pregnant and was expecting her child.
Neron's great passion for his music and poetry caused him to force senators to sit and listen to his endless and futile recipe. Nero was also hated too much because he built his own big gold house in the ruins of what was previously Rome's public area. He persecuted a large number of Christians and his childhood insistence to gain fame at the Olympics in Greece made the empire to be divided. Neron was overthrown by a military revolt.
OK back later - actually shared more than I planned to say which was, I am here after being practically shut down yesterday - have tons to do today playing catch-up.
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Jonathan if yourstudents are teens, that,s not an. at that goes tao church.
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After Mr. Slope's sermon, I had to laugh at this paragraph from our narrator:
There is, perhaps, no greater hardship at present inflicted on mankind in civilized and free countries than the necessity of listening to sermons. No one but a preaching clergyman has, in these realms, the power of compelling an audience to sit silent and be tormented. No one but a preaching clergyman can revel in platitudes, truisms, and untruisms and yet receive, as his undisputed privilege, the same respectful demeanour as though words of impassioned eloquence, or persuasive logic, fell from his lips.
I laugh, because I picture not only adults, but teens and children sitting at Mass listening to a boring homily, and as my six year old Zoey often askes, "How many more songs before it's over?"
Mr. Slope felt, "music had over meaning in the beautiful service which they had just heard." and "But how much of the meaning of the words was lost when they produced with all the meretricious charms of melody!"
Well, Mr. Slope, I for one enjoy the music/hymns in our service. For me, scripture comes alive! For my granddaughter Zoey, she is able to determine when the Mass is over. :D
But yes, change is coming to Barchester, and even though the ladies seem to be ready and willing to accept it, the church clergy clearly are not!
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There are all kinds of things in that convention that we don't understand. Scope is sending a message that he is from another branch of the religion completely with all kinds of implections for social class and religion.
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Joan, You may have been addressing me, rather than Jonathan about the students being teens. I teach third grade CCD, but I can assure you, all catechism grades 1-8 are not attending Sunday Mass. We discuss how to get the parents more active in participating in church, but the same reasons are told to us, "My Mom and Dad don't get up in time to go to church." I tell them there are many different times they could attend throughout the day, and even an evening Saturday Mass, yet still, no success if getting them to bring their children to church. It does amaze me, they make sure they bring them to CCD class on Wednesday evenings. It's so frustrating.
Barb, Yes, we have factored into the lower attendance, due to less population, fallen away Catholics, and a church that seems to have attracted many because it does not do any structural readings, Eucharist, and is mostly like a music concert with a stage for the band and singers. So, Mr. Slope could be on to something about losing the meaning of the words to music, but then...... are some able to hear the message better through music, rather than sermons?
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Could be on the music Bellamaire - I remember reading how before Christ, Jews were each required to sing during the service and something about when the 2nd Temple was built there was a new expectation that women were no longer allowed to sing - at the time the reason was they may bring into the Temple contemporary music sung in the street. I think when we read the Red Tent is when all this information was looked into about music. But then Slope's remarks I think was a swipe at Reverend Harding who, although humble and less concerned with the politics of position, was High Church.
As Joan shares, Slope is using his relationship with the Bishop's wife to one upmanship as he inserts in his conversation the Low or what then was considered more liberal version of the Anglican Church. Earlier we learned that the liberal viewpoint at this time in history was not supportive of the working class or women and one more group - was it unions? Although, I do not think unionization was an issue yet. However, this is the time of Karl Marx. There was no such thing as communism but Marx was a revolutionary socialist.
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According to the notes in my copy, the issue of what was worn when preaching - the High Church group within the Church of England and in Barchester did not preach in white surplices where as the Tractarians or Puseyites would and the differences were highlighted because of the restoration in 1839 of the Roman Catholic hierarchy in England, opening England to the influence of Pope Pius IX. This initiated the "surplice riots" in Exeter in 1844-45. Then, there were violent disruptions in 1859, after this book was published, because of the introduction of lighted candles on the alter and a robed choir. The disturbance hit The Times and other newspapers.
These notes go on to say that High Churchman wore the long black frock with a narrow clerical collar were as Evangelicals wore a cut-away tailcoat, white shirt and high collar.
Another, in Anglican theology the term "real presence" denotes a belief that the actual body and blood of Jesus are present in the Eucharist as opposed to a belief that sees them present only symbolically or figuratively.
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Oh my - naming the chapter "War" was significant - the Crimean War was being fought - this is the war where the poem of the Light Brigade was written -
"The Battle of Balaclava on 24 October, 1854 ended with the legendary British ‘Charge of the Light Brigade’, which was, although misguided, an astonishingly successful operation of war, with relatively light casualties - only 118 killed out of 620. The Russians were so frightened by the cold courage of the British troopers, they never again dared face them in the open field."
The Charge of the Light Brigade
By Alfred, Lord Tennyson
I
Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
“Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!” he said.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
II
“Forward, the Light Brigade!”
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
III
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of hell
Rode the six hundred.
IV
Flashed all their sabres bare,
Flashed as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wondered.
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right through the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reeled from the sabre stroke
Shattered and sundered.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.
V
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell.
They that had fought so well
Came through the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.
VI
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred! |
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Aha! No trains on Sunday. The Charge of the Light Brigade. I didn't realize the significance of 'The War' chapter. We're told that the new bishop, Dr Proudie was well connected with high government figures. Was the Crimean War meant to distract the parishioners of Barchester who were unhappy with the changes which came with the new bishop?
I thought it was just Mr Slope's doing. Purposely dividing the parish with his controversial style, before taking over from Archdeacon Grantly. And doesn't the archdeacon get mad!
The author is soon exclaiming: 'And now, had I the pen of a mighty poet, would I sing in epic verse the noble wrath of the archdeacon.'
How generous of Tennyson to rise to the occasion, and help him out.
I love Mr Harding. When under stress he listens for the heavenly harmonies in his head.
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I’m pretty sure the War chapter was about what was taking place in Barchester, between Mr. Slope and the clergy, along with who would divide and conquer, and who would follow whom. Or have I got my “who and whom” incorrectly? Never could get it straight.
Tennyson and the Crimean war....as a distraction. Now that’s a thought.
I too, love Mr. Harding.
A paragraph that captured me was:
On this occasion the new bishop took his seat for the first time in
the throne alloted to him. New scarlet cushions and drapery had been
prepared, with new gilt binding and new fringe. The old carved oak-
wood of the throne, ascending with its numerous grotesque pinnacles
half-way up to the roof of the choir, had been washed, and dusted,
and rubbed, and it all looked very smart. Ah! how often sitting
there, in happy early days, on those lowly benches in front of the
altar, have I whiled away the tedium of a sermon in considering how
best I might thread my way up amidst those wooden towers and climb
safely to the topmost pinnacle!
Unless I am mistaken, is the narrator the one reminiscing of his days thinking of climbing those towers? I can imagine a child sitting there lost in adventurous thought os doing just that.
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Dr. Harding - the kind of integrity we wish that all our contacts possessed - but then there would be no stories would there - the story is about some sort of conflict that is worked out.
Jonathan thanks for the reminder, like most good artists, they 'borrow' 'steal' 'copy' from one another just as they pick up what they observe around them and your showing us Tennyson as a thrill of recognition pulls the curtain back on the magic of Trollop. Not only is this story bits of borrowed news but we have some borrowed sentence structure.
Yes, Bellamarie War in Barchester however, with influences from how the Crimean war was both reported and fought - seems to me this was the war where Florence Nightingale had her first influence. Hmm should we be looking for characteristics of Florence Nightingale in some of our characters? Never imagined this war also influencing writers other than Tennyson.
This first group of chapters introduces to us just about all the main characters - almost like a children's piano recital - here is Jenny Lynn and she will play the Happy Farmer and here is Cody, he will play March of the Wooden Soldiers - as each character's vignette is told we learn what rattles their cages - the biggest cage rattler is between the Traditional High Church of England and the changes that represented the the views of the Liberal, Low Church - How Trollop pricks both viewpoints will be fun and games for us as we read.
His story seems to be layering one event on top of the next and I am anxious to see what he does with this controversy. Monday we start our next group of chapters.
I must say, I do not know about any of you but it is a shock to my system to hear how the appointment of a Bishop is dependent upon the politics of the day and which party or group holds public office and therefore, will influences the appointment of a Bishop - Never really saw how integral the connection between Church and Government - not sure it really matters except how the funding works. To the clergy, regardless what religious group there is always a governing body who appoints leadership and directs the church emphases and so, the difference is if it is Rome or more local and your own Government - makes what is going on now in Germany an interesting political series of events to watch.
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There is, perhaps, no greater hardship at present inflicted on mankind in civilized and free countries than the necessity of listening to sermons.
WAR
And the first shot is fired by Slope in his sermon. He addresses all the doctrinal details held dear by the old guard, refuting and denying them, in a cleverly crafted speech which shows he means to win, taking no prisoners, giving no quarter, and shows them what a clever and formidable opponent he is.
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Yes, PatH., I agree, Slope has indeed declared war on the comfortable old timers of the church, better known as the lower church. After seeming to want to get rid of Mr. Harding as precentor, making his remarks about music, he then visits Eleanor and uses all his charm to make it seem he meant nothing at all by it. He is a sneaky, clever one for sure. I'll be keeping my eye on him.
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Pat I guess all war is someone shooting a shot across the bow so to speak - Amazing to me how in control Archdeacan Grantly holds in his rampage - Evidently this entire uproar, where not specific to a certain clergymen was really happening with some of these religious "wars" making the news - I guess it is still going on, not only within the Christian community but among widely different religious groups. It appears even today, for many, their behavior is because of their religious affiliation far more than their national law - although, now that I see how entwined the Anglican church is to the Government it's the same isn't it - the only difference is for Muslims the religious laws are the laws of the land and so too among the Jews in Israel - difficult to wrap my head around that but reading Barchester Chronicles is a perfect non-preachy or threatening way to explain how it works. Although the English way gives equality to the laws of the land that affects behavior.
Yes, Bellamarie, Slope is one to watch isn't he - also, I think to watch is Madeline Neroni and oh, I forgot his name but her brother, the son of the absentee Reverend who have returned from Italy. The son is what my grandmother would call a 'wisenheimer' who knows just how to get what he wants from his father and Madame Neroni sure knows how to make a statement - talk about a major manipulator - she has them all covered.
Just read in the notes - and yes, I felt the difference as I was reading - chapter 9 seems a bit more hefty then the preceding 8 and as it should be - seems Trollop wrote the first 8 chapters and set the book aside for at least 6 months and then picked up with a new direction starting with chapter 9 that introduces to us the next group of characters that we need to know about.
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I don't know what to say. I don't think I've ever encountered such a curious, overwhelming, storytelling style. It may take me a little time keeping up with all of you. The new bishop and his chief of staff, the Rev Slope, down from London, are upsetting a lot of the folk in Barchester. Not to mention the scandalous Stanhope family who have spent ten years in Itlay, being spoiled by the easy life.
Archdeacon Grantly actually blows his stack from anger. Will we be counting bodies before this is over?
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Barb, what an interesting bit of information, about Trollope setting the book aside after chapter 8, and picking up his writing six months later. As a novice writer myself, I can assure you that when you begin writing with certain thoughts and ideas, and stop and go back to it at a later date, your mindset is no longer in that exact same place as it was when you first began the process of writing your story. I can very easily see how chapter 9 could take a bit of a turn.
Yes! It was Madame Neroni who I was trying to think of when I mentioned earlier about the lady crippled, who seems to be meddling into everyone's affairs. She sure does manage to stay abreast of everything in her settee. I love how in the movie version, each person that comes into her room she tells them to pull their chair a little closer, so she can see them. Why do I get the feeling her reason is so she can exert better control over their conversation? It made me think of the saying, "Says the spider to the fly." She actually seems to enjoy messing around, and messing up people's lives.
Barb, I think as far back as the beginning of time we have had a "war" going on where the church and state/government are concerned. Gosh when I think back to reading the Metamorphosis, learning how they fought for positions as far back as mythological times, then you have the "wars" of the present, which really are no different than any other times, just different areas, leaders, and technology. But in actuality, does it not all come down to the same sinful reason..... power! I mean didn't Lucifer think he could have power over Adam and Eve, and even God himself, by tempting them to eat of the forbidden tree? Yes, reading Barchester, and even The Warden, we see....... pompous people positioning for powerful positions.
Jonathan, You made me laugh out loud reading.... "Will we be counting bodies before this is over?"
Indeed I think we shall!
I'm off to begin the next set of chapters on this windy, gloomy Sunday.
Ciao for now~
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Yep, Jonathan the ingredients for the stew are laid out before us. I am anxious to see how this thing cooks - ;)
Bellamarie yes, war and more war - small skirmishes and major breaks - in fact probably lots of skirmishes we never hear about between members of the clergy in the same 'house', 'monastery' - just as there are among families. Now if we could have an author today with the wit and writing ability of Trollop I would feel less down in the tooth. I am so tired of all the upheaval - but that is another issue - I wonder if the folks living during the mid nineteenth century put up with the constant daily drumbeat of wrangling, being reminded of the awfulness of the 'other' - I guess for some it was constant because it affected them personally.
Well let's see how Trollop cooks the stew - we have the characters pretty well defined - ha just thought - we have a baby, we have a devoted mother, we have a kind and gentle, godlike father of the mother, we have the oily manipulator, we have the outrage to how spiritual life was and therefore should be practiced, (Moses maybe? or John the Baptist or hm maybe actually the pharisees). We have the new Bishop subjected by his fear of his wife. (Pontius Pilate, puppet to Rome) Hmm will this be modern twist on the affect that Madame Neroni (Mary Magdalene) has on events? Who will become the Joseph to mother and babe? Will good will and good works become secondary to politics for power, and how will the desire for being acknowledged as having done a good job with increases in income affect the story? How much will typical British class structure hint at winners and losers?
Stew does take a little salt along with all the ingredients to bring out the taste of each - and so we shall see how Trollop sprinkles in the salt.
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I really wonder where the author is taking us. It's about clergymen but is it about religion? Or is it about dividing the spoils of a very rich institution? And the scandals which follow. I liked Karen's comparison. Just as Gaskell wrote about the women of Cranford, Trollope writes about the Church people in Barchester. I don't expect anyone to murder another, but I'm not surprised to see them spoiling each other's parties, as Madeline does to Mrs Proudie. I see a strong feminist theme in the plot, but that was already a strong current in Victorian times'
'We have a baby!' That's a wonderful line, Barb. Of course, that means hope for the future. What a shock to read, that the boy has no life of his own. No future. Will the author still feel that way six months from now?
I rather enjoy Trollope's storytelling. I'm committed. I acquired three more of his books over the weekend. As well as a biography of his mother. She also wrote a ton of books. Her husband was a failure at eveything he tried. The law. Farming. And spent most of his life working on an encyclopedia of Church of England titles and terminology. Perhaps that explains the son's interest.
Happy reading. There's a happy scene in The Warden, in which the Archdeacon is seen running the diocese, but the wife, Eleanor's sister, running him. Many meaningful scenes in this story.
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You too Jonathan - I am entranced if for no other reason than the dialogue reminds me of my mother. She loved words and quotes - nearly everything we shared or asked, her first comeback was a line from a book, play, movie, singing the line of a song, or the title of a book, play, movie, etc. that directly related and she often had this, what I thought was magical, way of expressing herself - never when there were serious problems or she was sad but she was basically a cheerful person and talked in the meter, using the same elaborate language as I am reading in this book - I'm loving it.. I wish I could call and chat with her and find out if she ever did read Trollop and what prompted her to use so many quotes and songs in her conversation? Mom would probably say, it was fun. We're talking pre-TV here when folks made their own fun.
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Ushering in and Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers
Second Week, October 16 - October 22
Discussing, Chapter I0 through Chapter 19
Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.
Trollop's characters, who occupy this factitious community are hilarious, absurd, susceptible to corruption and hypocrisy, introduced with detachment, even contempt: however, we find they stand for old hospitality, bonds, loyalty, in the countryside of Trollop's Britain.
"— Mrs. Proudie had no idea of being less thought of than the chaplain... when unfortunately the castor of the sofa caught itself in her lace train, – “Gathers were heard to go, stitches to crack, plaits to fly open, flounces were seen to fall, and breadths to expose themselves, a long ruin of rent lace disfigured the carpet, and still clung to the vile wheel on which the sofa moved.” As Juno may have looked at Paris on Mount Ida, so did Mrs. Proudie look on Ethelbert Stanhope when he pushed the leg of the sofa into her lace train"
| (http://www.foliosociety.com/images/books/lrg/BT2.jpg?20171003151543) |
A few questions to help pull us in ---
1] During Mrs. Proudie's party which characters matched these signs of inner anger?
a) A desire to be alone
b) A desire to flee
c) Agreeing for the sake of it
e) Worry that others will feel let down
f) Passive-aggressive comments
2] Which Characters during the party matched any of these signs of suppressed defeat?
a) Using anger to feed strength
b) False Bravado
c) Trying to maintain eye contact
d) Laying the blame on others
3] Over what moral values does Reverend Harding's heart feel loss and hopelessness?
4] Imagine a scene in which Archdeacon Grantly is confronted with the ordination of women? How would he discuss this with Eleanore Bold and then how would he discuss it with his wife, Susan.
5] How does Homer's tale of The Frogs and The Mice (http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/homer/frogmice.htm) relate or shadow Trollop's story?
6] How does the mention of the uproariously funny play The Rivels (1775) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/theatre/what-to-see/the-rivals-is-as-uproariously-funny-today-as-it-was-in-1775/) still produced today, staring the character Bob Acres remind us of the 'war' between the ever retreating Bishop Proudie and his wife?
7] How would Mrs. Proudie's talk to/at Slope if she suspected his attention/interest at the party was with Mrs. Eleanore Bold rather than the Signora Neroni?
The schedule for our discussion
Oct. 8 - 14 --- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 35, Miss Thorne's Fête Champêtre
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 36, Ullathorne Sports - Act I - to - Chapter 43, Mr and Mrs Quiverful are made happy Mr. Slope is encouraged by the Press
Nov. 12 - 18 --- Chapter 44, Mrs Bold at Home - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Jonathan:
I really wonder where the author is taking us. It's about clergymen but is it about religion? Or is it about dividing the spoils of a very rich institution?
Agreed--it's more about power struggles than religion. Presumable some of the characters are actually devout, but you don't see much of it.
And the characters are painted in telling detail, but Trollope doesn't seem to have much liking for most of them.
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Barb, I think I would have loved your mother, just reading about her responding with quotes, lyrics etc. would have been fun! I find myself constantly responding with scripture in my years of late.
For sure we are seeing power struggles. They are all jockeying around, puffing out their chests and demanding so and so be placed in the empty positions. Oh dare do not count the females out. After all, the poor Bishop has his contentious wife to deal with, and seems to not have the stamina to stand his ground with her:
"Bishop, did you ever hear a more sublime, more spirit-moving, more appropriate discourse that that?" "Well, my love; ha - hum - he!" The bishop did not know what to say. "I hope, my lord, you don't mean to say you disapprove?" There was a look about the lady's eye which did not admit of my lord's disapproving at that moment. He felt that if he intended to disapprove, it must be now or never, but he also felt that it could not be now. It was not in him to say to the wife of his bosom that Mr. Slope's sermon was ill-timed, impertinent, and vexatious.
As Barb pointed out in the beginning, this was not going to be about religion, more so I can see it is about the practices. Should music continue, or will it be as Mrs. Proudie hopes for:
"Did you ever in your life, bishop, hear anything so like play-acting as the way in which Mr. Harding sings the litany? I shall beg Mr. Slope to continue a course of sermons on the subject till all that is altered. We will have at any rate in our cathedral a decent, godly, modest morning service. There must be no more play-acting here now;"
The bishop knew more about cathedrals and deans and precentors and church services than his wife did, and also more of a bishop's powers. But he thought it better at present to let the subject drop.
Wise or weak, would you say about the bishop?
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Goodmorning to all and a Happy Monday
Me thinks, I stayed in chapter 9 entirely too long. Yikes, each and every Stanhope, one worse than the other,"... the family characteristic said to be heartlessness..." Wondering what Trollope is planning ? Is this the "Tower" of Barchester madness. Picture The Stanhope Clan, standing on top of each others shoulders wavering and holding scandalous flags, laughing at the citizens of Barchester .
Something is afoot ...
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Oh, then you must move on youtb, because it gets quite hilarious in chapter XI. I won't give it away because it's too delicious to read first hand, but our dear zany Bertie has brought chaos to Mrs. Proudie's reception!!!
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Hahaha Yup, Nancy Chapter 9 was better than the NY Macy's Thanksgiving day parade - a surprise a minute and as colorful with as you say flags waving - still not sure what or who will be Santa at the end of their parade but they sure know how to upstage a story and a party. Our first two chapters this week follow the Stanhope clan with as much hoopla as Chapter 9.
Bellamarie for sure the power struggles - and as Pat alludes, each examined for the minutia that brings only a smile to the reader's faces. And yes, the exchange between the Bishop and his wife - oh oh oh - he just does not want to tackle a women who can give you a look as Juno did to Paris on Mount Ida. A formidable woman for sure is Mrs. Proudie.
I not only loved the slapstick comedy played out describing the rending fabric when her lace train was caught under the wheel of the sofa but his immediate reference was priceless... "So, when a granite battery is raised, excellent to the eyes of warfaring men, is its strength and symmetry admired. It is the work of years. Its neat embrasures, its finished parapets, its casemated stories, show all the skill of modern science. But anon, a small spark is applied to the treacherous fusee, - a cloud of dust arises to the heavens, - and then nothing is to be seen but dirt and dust and ugly fragments." So Bertie applies the treacherous fusee and a cloud of dust settles on him, nearby Reverend Slope and his sister, the Signora but he lite the spark - me oh my... but don't you love it - a comic book would have all three flying in the air along with clouds of dust and red explosive flashes.
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What a fine tribute to your mother, Barb. She certainly left you with a lot of happy memories.
And what a book. What fun to read. I think we all, like Nancy, thoroughly enjoyed Chapter 9. But then it was gestating for six months. Yes, the Stanhopes were known for their heartlessness. But also, we're told, they were very thoughtful of each other. I like your choice of adjectives, Bellamarie. 'Zany' Bertie. 'What's it like to be a bishop?' he asks Dr Proudie. He's tried everything else. And leave it to him, to see the destruction of Mrs Proudie's dress as raising a battery. How childish? Or sexy? Quiet little Barchester is going to be shaken to its roots.
Mrs Proudie's character had preceded her. I can't think of her as contentious. She seems like a serious Christian lady. I'm surprised by the opinions of the narrator. Would it be better if he stayed out of the story? Or does he think of himself as the salt of the...tale?
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Wow can you believe - this is a photo from William Browne's Hospital in Stamford Lincolnshire, an almshouse built in 1485 by said Wm Browne, a wealthy wool merchant, for 12 poor men and 2 poor women.
Some sites say it is today a museum and then this site says there are 13 residents living in flats that were updated in 1963.
http://www.stamfordcivicsociety.org.uk/brownes-hospital.html (http://www.stamfordcivicsociety.org.uk/brownes-hospital.html)
(http://78.media.tumblr.com/2d9c40078b6c619578e9018305141895/tumblr_njkxjxeljU1rtjcd0o1_500.jpg)
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Our Narrator Trollop does not as Jonathan suggests, 'Would it be better if he stayed out of the story?' but instead, Trollop is in our face, writing several times as if he were, no, he is acting like someone brashly looking over the window ledge and not only reporting to us what he sees but giving us his blow by blow opinion based on knowledge we, (he and we, the readers) share that the characters, exchanging their thoughts and struggles for clarity or dominance do not know.
I do not know of any other author who so blatantly enters the storyline as an invisible observer - talk about Gossip as Nancy pointed out early on in our discussion.
I had not yet watched the play but evidently reading the notes from The Warden, Trollop refers to the play, The Rivels (1775) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/theatre/what-to-see/the-rivals-is-as-uproariously-funny-today-as-it-was-in-1775/) in that story as well. In The Warden his reference is to Captain Jack Absolute. The link is to the article about the play in production including a few colorful photos of moments in the play.
'Youtube' has several links to bits and pieces that are actually better acted but this is a link to the play in its entirety
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8PyT71Q74o[/url]
Here is another production in 3 Youtube videos. I have not watched it all but the 10 minute clips are not adding up so there may be more clips by this poster, Martin Gorst - this series does start with a slooow showing of the playbill - I'd skip it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt7vH1Nn4Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt7vH1Nn4Q)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot7ISn-kAIY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot7ISn-kAIY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaV-MCrZw4w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaV-MCrZw4w)
And finally, this youtube version has several links you can find on the side of the page but what is nice is the interview with Rachel Kavanaugh on the motives and stagecraft of Sheridan's 'The Rivals'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKBY54EgNX8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKBY54EgNX8)
Have fun at the movies tonight ;) evidently Trollop thought this was an enjoyable play, so much so that he quotes character names to bring alive his characters in his Barchester Chronicles. I can see, especially in the last Youtube when it finally gets to the play, the outrage played out. Sounds much like the outrage that Archdeacon Grantly, acted by the wonderful Nigel Hawthorne, could bluster though in his scenes.
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Yes, chapter XI had me in stitches, and Barb, your comic book idea would be just added humor to the already great laughs the words Trollope chose to describe this calamity!
I'm beginning to see why Tollope chose the name "Proudie" for Mr. & Mrs. Proudie. It suits her to a "T" she is indeed a very proud person. I do believe she is trying her best to be helpful, yet she comes over so strong and intrusive, those in the room want to dismiss her, or patronize. The poor bishop has learned how to tamper her by agreeing, even when he doesn't and then goes about doing what he sees best.
At the end of this book I assure you we will be handing out awards for best actress, actor, supporting actress, supporting actor, screenplay, funniest, and least liked character, along with many other deserving credits. Hollywood anit got notin on Trollope or Senior learn. Slapstick at it's finest!!! I can just imagine Trollope sitting at his desk writing this scene and laughing all the way.....
"I'll fly to the looms of the fairies to repair the damage, if you'll only forgive me," said Ethlbert, still on his knees.
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Love it Bellamarie - the Bertie quote is wonderful isn't it...
Looks like his sister Charlotte will be his arranger, if she can get Signora Neroni to let some of the light shine on Bertie - although, he does hold his own doesn't he - however, it appear even the Signora takes a nod from Charlotte so we shall see how Eleanore handles the Stanhope onslaught - Will it be gorilla style or D-day or maybe bombs away, although Bertie does not appear to be the bombs away sort. Or maybe that is exactly his style - he sure knew how to bomb away when the mishap presented itself with Mrs. Proudie's train caught under the sofa wheel.
Bottom of page 79, the last sentence fortiter in re,...suaviter in modo. Translates from Latin, strong in deed...gentle in manner.
And on page 80, omnium gatherum: Latin for a gather or collection of all sorts of people or things, a miscellaneous group.
Amazing - we see that today in politics - where if you do not address an issue directly there is an assumption made, as with Slope and Harding over if he would or not be the Warden - as my mother would sing her comment - Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby
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I don't think there was an assumption made here.....Slope was up to no good, and tried desperately to trick Mr. Harding into refusing the position by putting all those conditions along with it, knowing full well Mr. Harding was neither qualified, nor able bodied, due to age and inexperience to handle all those expectations. When Mr. Slope learned Eleanor was a wealthy widow, and it could mean he would marry her, he then tried to undo everything, and present it in an entirely different light. To quote our famous poet/novelist Sir Walter Scott:
Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!
Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
Barb, perfect lyrics for this situation. The only thing is.... everyone thinks Eleanor is interested in Slope as a suitor, except for Eleanor herself.
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This High Church-Low Church division in Barchester is so typical of any institution and in society as a whole. First you have the group that wants to change/modernize/reform, then there are those who want things to stay the same, there are always those who want to go back to a time in the past, and there are those who don't care about any of that. They just want to live their lives and support themselves. In Barchester, Archbishop Grantly and his wife are leading the forces who want to keep things as they are. They are bringing Mr. Arabin as reinforcement for their cause because he gives excellent sermons. Mrd. Bold and Mr. Harding support the High Churchers, but mostly want Mr. Harding reinstated at St. Hirams with his salary and his house. Calling for reform are the Evangelicals who are seeking to strip of all trappings os Roman Catholicism and be more Protestant. Bishop and Mrs Proudie and Mr Slope are reformers and they seem to have the power as the Bishop heads the Church in Barchester. The Stanhopes and the Quiverfuls just want to make a living or maintain a lifestyle and at this may go either way. And then there are those who just want to live their lives and don't care.
My experience is that when I get involved in the administration and the decision-making in the Church, I tend to lose sight of the reason I attend church and pay less and less attention to the spiritual side of religion. I think Mr. Harding with his music and caring for the old men is the best example of worshipping God so far in the text.If this were real life I wouldn't presume to judge what is in the hearts of the people in the Church, but the all knowing narrator allows me to see into the motivations of the characters.
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Oh Karen, our author/narrator is certainly interjecting himself and his feelings upon us.
My readers will guess from what I have written that I myself do not like Mr. Slope, but I am constrained to admit that he is a man of parts. He knows how to say a soft word in the proper place; he knows how to adapt his flattery to the ears of his hearers; he knows the wiles of the serpent, and he uses them.
In reading all the jockeying around for positions, the attitudes of the High vs Low church, and the members who agree or disagree with the new changes coming, and the resistance to keep things the same, I clearly can see it applies to the same issues we continue to face even in today's government and church. Our parish has gone through four pastors in the past four years. Of course our longtime Fr. Auth was forced into retirement (with the drinking problem he had it's no wonder), so then we were assigned Fr. Chris, who was polish and had broken English, you had to pay very close attention in order to understand his homily. He was the Mr. Slope of our church, ready and willing to make some big changes, and it riled up so many who were not on board, that they left the church and went to a nearby one. His health could not take all the resistance, and so he was assigned to a smaller church in a more remote town. Next, Fr. Ring a retired priest was to come to our parish until they would assign a new permanent pastor. Finally, Fr. Miller is here and seems to be a perfect fit. He is young enough to be very involved in the church activities, as well as the school and CCD classes. He is very old traditional, with a modern approach. When I first went up to introduce myself to him I said, "Welcome to Regina Coeli Fr. Miller, how long do you plan on staying?" He laughed and replied, "Yes, I have heard you have had a few priests of late. I am here to stay." I said, "We shall see." He learned after a year or so to delegate to the those who have the knowledge and title of groups, and step back and oversee, rather than jump in with both feet and try to take charge of every area and committee.
Okay, off to finish up the last chapter for this week before my precious Zak & Zoey arrive to spend the night with us, since they have teacher in service, which means no school today or tomorrow. Zak has already face timed me, and texted, letting me know to not be late in picking them up, and what fun things he has planned for us to do. Oh the joys of grandchildren!
p.s. I spoke to soon giving the bishop too much credit, after reading the last few chapters, he is indeed a coward
Chapter XVII Who Shall Be Cock of the Walk?
The upshot of his thought was this, that there certainly was not room in the diocese for the energies of both himself and Mrs. Proudie and that it behove him quickly to ascertain whether his energies or hers were to prevail.
Chapter XVIII The Widow's Persecution
"Ill!" said the archdeacon to himself as he flung himself into his brougham. "The man is absolutely a coward. He is afraid to see me. Ill, indeed!"
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Right on Karen - the factions that fracture any good are all jockeying for power with the real intent wrapped up in mild and kind Reverent Harding - always the way isn't it - have not looked into Trollop's other series but I understand he does have a series with the conflicts of power related to the political scene at the time - as Bellamarie shares it is a theme regardless the historical time or regardless the intent of the origination of the group.
What gets me is how to further a side, often a dip into history without all the facts or the values held at the time, is used to support a current viewpoint - I guess all we can do, as long as we as individuals are not feeling gross hardship, is look at the funny side - its when these opposing viewpoints lead to combat and war that it really is painful. I remember as a school girl learning that we are all aggressive - if we were not we would not eat and we would die because regardless animal or vegetable we are cooking and consuming something we had to kill and pulling something up by the root or taking it from a tree is an aggressive act. Which says to me all we can hope for is to control our aggression and modify using them to get others to think as we think.
Recently saw what I thought was such a great illustration - all I can do is describe - I've no photo which said so much with one glance - someone standing in front of a large, cutout from black cardboard and laying on the floor, the number 9 and another comes from the opposite side of the room and they see a number 6. I thought that was packed chuck full of meaning.
Bellamarie I do not know about you but in chapter 17, I was amused to read Trollop saying Mrs. Proudie was in her boudoir - not my picture but soon rectified when she is found sitting with her account books - sounding more like her office then her boudoir. This is where the bishop's courage is likened to that of Bob Acres in the play, The Rivels.
Appears, the Bishop and Reverend Harding have in common their mild manner or is it lack of courage - certainly both are drowned and sunk by those whose sails are full and their ship of state is running with all nature's force at and over you.
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Amazing when you think about it that Eleanore's chose of a marriage partner could be construed as an act of war. Looks like a carbon copy of the political church - feelings, love and good works have nothing to do with whom you associate or what is important - only the protocol of a set of beliefs and the rules the hierarchy adopt to support that set of beliefs. Patriarchy in all its glory...
And then Mr Harding makes his choice, not on what is the best use of his talents or his inner wishes but again it is supporting a belief or value system that is practiced in a certain way and therefore, siding with those with whom you agree. Thinking about it - it does get complicated because without the histrionics that Trollop uses in his story but rather in real life it is sure easier and more satisfying to live and work among folks who share your belief or value system - it appears reading and realizing from this story, it is the systems of belief we believe are worth fighting for - and we are still at it...
Which by the way "The sly Tartufe!" is referring to Moliere's comedy where Tartuffe is a religious hypocrite. Great French movie using modern characterizations of the Moliere's Misanthrope that reminds me of Trollop - Bicycling With Moliere 2014 wonderfully acted - it is on Amazon and with translation below it is a delight to see. Where Jonathan in gobbling up all the Trollop he can find, after seeing the movie I was gobbling up all the translated Moliere I could find.
Rainy here today and a cold front expected on Sunday so a good weekend for reading...
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Right on, Barb. I'm gobbling up all the Trollope I can find. I don't know when I'll get it all read. And I was just as eager about Moliere many years ago after reading a very enjoyable bio about him. (Moliere: The Comic Mask, by D. B. Wyndam Lewis) I got lucky. I found a fine 3-volume set of all his plays.
Yes, I caught that: "I see it all," said the archdeacon, "The sly tartuffe! He thinks to buy the daughter by providing for the father." Mr Slope is after Eleanor's thousand a year by getting Mr Harding's wardenship back for him.
What a disagreeable fellow, this Mr Slope. That's partly the author's own doing. He can't stand Mr. Slope. But he needs a villain, and has the audacity to end the chapter with the words: "Mr Slope is certainly becoming of some importance in Barchester."
But the author is fascinated by the Stanhopes, who have been living in Italy for the past 12 years. About them he has Mr Harding saying: " (They're very friendly) They certainly do look more like foreigners than English people, but I dare say they are none the worse for that."
I find that hard to believe. The English don't lose their identity that quickly, if at all. What an entertaining author. But untrustworthy.
Mr Slope was a fine low church London preacher, who caught Mrs Proudie's ear. She liked his sermons and soon had him appointed Dr Proudie's chaplain. And, of course, he never looked back. I suspect he meets his Waterloo in Barchester.
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Thanks for the tip Jonathan I have not heard of, Moliere: The Comic Mask, need to find it. And agree, the Stanhopes are an interesting lot - Bertie is suppose to be a cad and yet, I like him so far - far more than Slope. Then, Reverend Harding is so humble I do not think I would like him as a friend and dear Eleanore is so unaware and as innocent as her baby - a great assortment of characters - reminds me of Alice in Wonderland - never know who is going to pop in or what is going to happen next - Dr. Grantly could be the Queen shouting, 'Off with their heads.'
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I was startled reading the time at night of the walk around the close - and then to be going home at 1:00 in the morning - wow - not what I ever imagined during Victorian Britain.
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Evidently the Duke of Cambridge was used by Prince George, grandson of King George III - the Duke was commander and chief of the Army in 1856 - the Duke of Cambridge is currently used by Prince William.
The title goes back to the 17th century when evidently several babies and young children who died were the first to have the title - The first to use the title and later became king was George II in 1727 - reading up on the title it is passed through the father's family and involves land and other rights.
On page 144 the human face divine is from Milton's Paradise Lost
And this is telling isn't it - Winchester... New Collage - Winchester is the oldest English public school, (to us that means private school) founded in 1382 - can you just imagine attending classes in an institution established over a hundred years before Columbus sailed - Eleanore of Aragon dies in 1382 - amazing -
At the same time as Winchester is established, so too is New College, Oxford - these are the schools attended by Trollop's father and where his father hoped his son would also attend however, after 3 years at Winchester Trollop returns to Harrow as a day boy.
Harrow or not, versus Winchester, this is a very educated man as compared to Dickens’s, whose education began at William Giles’s School, Chatham. His private school attendance ended when his father was sent to jail after amassing debt. Dickens attended Wellington House Academy in London for four years. He left school aged 15 and began working as a clerk in a solicitor’s office -
Dickens writes a compelling story but without the many references to literature, Greek Mythology or sprinkles of French that Trollop includes in his stories - Trollop's stories have wit where as Dickens' stories have far more drama.
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Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers
Third Week, October 23 - October 29
Discussing, Chapter 20 - to - Chapter 27
Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.
Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent.
"— I never saw anything like you clergymen,' said Eleanor; 'you are always thinking of fighting each other.'
'Either that,' said he, 'or else supporting each other. The pity is that we cannot do the one without the other...'
'Wars about trifles,' said he, 'are always bitter, especially among neighbors. When the differences are great, and the parties comparative strangers, men quarrel with courtesy. What combatants are ever so eager as two brothers?'
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A few questions to help pull us in ---
1] What was your impression of Mr. Arabin immediately after reading Chapter 20, Mr Arabin.
2] How do you see Mr. Arabin fitting in with the gaiety of the Stanhope Family that Eleanore prefers.
3] Which Quotes from books and Author references did you catch reading these chapters.
4] What impression was Trollop making by introducing Mrs. Thorne and Miss Thorne using references to many books and authors? What about these two women is similar to Trollop's mother?
5] Who was Zeno - What philosophy was he the founder?
6] What was Slope's error with Mrs. Proudie?
7] And the Love Scene - Signora Neroni inflames Slope's fantasy of love but has he realized his war is between the church, as his source of power and his passion to have as his the Signora?
The schedule for our discussion
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39, The Lookalofts and the Greenacres
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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I'm not so sure if I like Bertie's carefree attitude in life, running up bills he can't pay for himself. I thought I liked his silliness, but now, I think him to be a careless man, who decides marrying Eleanor will be the answer to him not being more responsible, in finding himself a job. Fun and games is always enjoyable, but at some point in life you do have to be serious and support your own self.
Isn't it funny how I myself, am finding as I go along, I change my mind about the characters?
Barb, in comparing Trollope to Dickens, I would agree, that Trollope provides humor, even with tackling a serious topic as the church of England's changing times. Dickens from my experience in reading him, has been a bit dry and drab. A Christmas Carol which is a known classic, is not at all a favorite of mine, if anything, I find it extremely uncharitable, and scary for children to read or watch. Yes, I suppose the moral of the story is to be a giving and kinder person, but for me, I just didn't care for it. Ironically, my hubby has been collecting Dept. 56 The Heritage Collection Dicken's Village for over thirty years. My grandson Zak is mesmerized with it, and it's a MUST, I do not put it out for Christmas until he is here to help.
Jonathan, What a disagreeable fellow, this Mr Slope. That's partly the author's own doing. He can't stand Mr. Slope.
The author has made it quite clear he does not like Mr. Slope, and is hoping the readers will not as well. But then we read Ch. 20 and the author has nothing but extreme liking, and praise for the Rev. Francis Arabin. An entire chapter devoted to Arabin. The very opening of this chapter makes it clear the author intends the reader to not only like Arabin as much as he does himself, but he intends us to see him of a man of royalty, character, esteem, and any other praising adjective you may conjecture. Trollope himself, is fearful he will not do Rev. Francis Arbin justice, in even attempting to describe him to the reader:
The Rev. Francis Arabin, fellow of Lazarus, late professor of poetry at Oxford, and present vicar of St. Ewold, in the diocese of Barchester, must now be introduced personally to the reader. He is worthy of a new volume, and as he will fill a conspicuous place in it, it is desirable that he should be made to stand before the reader's by the aid of such portraiture as the author is able to produce.
It is to be regretted that no mental mithod of daguerreotype or photography has yet been discovered by which the characters of men can be reduced to writing and put into grammatical language with an unerring precision of truthful description. How often does the novelist feel, ay, and the historian also and the biographer, that he has conceived within his mind and accurately depicted on the tablet of is brain the full character and personage of a man, and that nevertheless, when he flies to pen and ink to perpetuate the portrait, his words forsake, elude, disappoint, and play the deuce with him, till at the end of a dozen pages the man described has no more resemblance to the man conceived than the sign-board at the corner of the street has to the Duke of Cambridge.
And ye such mechanical descriptive skill would hardly give more satisfaction to the reader than the skill of the photographer does to the anxious mother desirous to possess an absolute duplicate of her beloved child. The likeness is indeed true, but it is a dull, dead, unfeeling, inauspicious likeness. The face is indeed there, and those looking at it will know at once whose image it is, but the owner of the face will not be proud of the resemblance.
There is no royal road to learning, no short cut to the acquirement of any valuable are. Lt photographers and daguerreotypes do what they will, and improve as they may with further skill on that which skill has already done, the will never achieve a portrait of the human face divine. Let biographers, novelists, and the rest of us groan as we may under the burdens which we so often feel too heavy for our shoulder; we must either bear them up like men, or own ourselves too weak for the work we have undertaken. There is no way of writing, well and also of writing easily.
Labor omnia vincit improbus. Such should be the chosen motto of every labourer, and it may be that labour, if adequately enduring, may suffice at last to produce even some not untrue resemblance of the Rev. Francis Arabin.
Oh my!!! It almost make me want to dislike the man before meeting him, if only because our author intends me to swoon over him as much as he does. Well, only time will tell, I am a woman/reader of my own judgement and mind.
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'It reminds me of Alice in Wonderland.'
'Eleanor is so unaware and as innocent as her baby.'
'Trollop's stories have wit where as Dickens' stories have far more drama.'
Very interesting perceptions, Barb. We are into a fascinating book by an unusual writer. And still popular. I was at a huge college book sale on Saturday. I soon spotted the fine hardcover, illustrated Barchester Towers and wondered if I should replace my cheap, falling-apart paperback. To my surprise it was priced higher than everything else. An hour later, when I got back to it, it was gone. So I settled for Queen Anne: The Politics of Passion, by Anne Somerset, (2013) at half the price.
Who's going to get Eleanor? What a magical walk around moonlit Barchester. Or was it a good walk spoiled by these dubious characters? Am I right in assuming Bertie and Slope, together, took Eleanor home? Enter Mr Arabin. And the author admits to being baffled by the difficulty of writing a true picture of this new, sterling character. An honest author, if there ever was one. And looking for a wife.
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Should I be disappointed? I was promised a war, but the book is all about love, or is it money?
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What a wonderful post, Bellamarie.
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Great post Bellamarie - and like you, not only am I wary about liking Arabin but frankly, from reading the chapter describing him, he seems a bore - nice but a bore - kind but a bore - I can see during security conscious times when folks are hauled off to prison for their debts and the focus is on differences over the religious expression among this group he probably is the sterling character that Trollop is describing - but so upstanding I think if you touch him he may squish like a comforter which is nice but little passion. I get the picture that even Signora Neroni could not tap, much less find the passion button to Reverend Francis Arabin.
I guess why I like Bertie is he knows his faults and does not hide them behind a veneer - the only one he manipulates is his father - what that is all about would probably be another book - as to creditors, they are his paper trail of overspending that links back to his father - a cry for attention?!? He is not like Slope who does not even know himself and plays everyone wanting importance and yet, wanting his view of being Anglican to be shared by all so that his Sunday homily can be to scold the parishioners; which suggests, that is how he would in time treat his wife and for sure his future children - Yep, Trollop knew how to create an oily manipulative character - I wonder who in Trollop's life was similar to get such a great picture of Slope.
Neither Bertie or Slope are good marriage partners for any woman much less our Eleanor who dislikes the controversy between clerics and for sure shows her temperament to be as her father, Reverend Hardy who is not a combative man.
I thought it interesting how Reverend Arabin justifies the quibbling between clerics and likens their disagreements with other professionals who disagree in order to grow and learn. Another way of looking at "off with their heads" Archdeacon Gravely.
"Should I be disappointed? I was promised a war, but the book is all about love, or is it money?" ;) And Jonathan what war is NOT about money??? with only a few about love... as the saying goes - follow the money trail which is common to all war where as, we like to remember the ancient Greek war about love - Helen, whose face launched a thousand ships or Sita, who sprang from a furrow when her father King Janaka was ploughing his field or another, the war over Princess Bilqees Bhaghi, who was swept into the arms of the victor, Sultan Allauddin, who defeated the king of Sindh. Yep, Quora is a great resource... :)
Looking at the church hierarchy the money trail appears to be with the power vested in the church by the crown and each promotion or accumulation of livings the clergyman enjoying an increased income or, their other source of increased income is by wooing the dowry of women. On face value looks like wooing the women but really, it is the wooing of the dowry with the women a byproduct.
Not too many years later we had American women heading to England to marry for status and the price was bailing out the old land rich 'titled' families that lived with their past wealth on display. Do not know of any clergy that wooed an American heiress - they seemed to set their goal on someone more approachable with, in comparison a more modest dowry.
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Think about it - now that would be interesting - large transfers of American wealth went to England - how much of that wealth continues to draw from the American economy hmmm no wonder the two countries continue to be good friends - we may be tied at the hip in more ways than we realize.
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Jonathan. If war is what you were looking for, I dare say you have it in these chapters as Mrs. Proudie, the Bishop and Mr. Slope stand at attention and mutiny breaks out! Something tells me Slope may have one the battle, but Mrs. Proudie will win the war!
Then we have a war of lust, love, deceit, and desires, between Signora Neroni and Slope. I love her statement to Slope....
“ You clergymen are cleverer than other men.”
Wow! My head is swirling after reading these chapters. Taking a break, will need time to process all this.
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Yes, Bellamarie the first of this week's chapters are especially dense aren't they - we sure get a good idea of what Trollop values and he spouts off through his characters and then critiquing his characters and their 'doings' he takes another swipe letting us know what he thinks is important and what is much ado or further, what is down right awfulness - the literary references are a mile a minute or hahaha like a machine gun - rah tat tat tat tah - after the first 20 pages of this weeks read I was done in and like you, I too had to stop for a bit - really need to go back and re-read to catch all that I missed.
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Can someone please explain to me what is the purpose of all the drivel about so many people and describing houses, room sizes, decor etc., in Chapter XXII. I simply got bored stiff, and like my fast forward button on my remote control, I simply swiped forward. The joys of reading a book on your iPad, with just a flick of your finger the paragraphs speed by. I truly gave it a try, but honestly, did Trollope fall through a rabbit’s hole, like Alice, and begin dreaming, only to find himself lost in Wonderland? Phew... I tried to go back today, but it was as exhausting as yesterday.
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Rewind, Bellamarie. You missed a lot of drama. Why did Mr Araban give up a brilliant career, to take on the lowly duties at St Ewold's Parsonage? Perhaps Barb can explain his dark night of the soul. And pity poor Mr Slope. Caught in a dilemma. He must decide between dazzle or a dowry. Is he really in love? With whom? With what? How interesting. A round table is too 'democratic'. Even a square one won't do. It must have a head. For 'business' meetings?
'Done in after 20 pages.' Anyone reading this book deserves sympathy. The author, himself, admits in his autobiography that his publisher advised him to cut the book by a third. He refused to cut even the smallest detail. And he was right. Once the reader gets caught up in the story.... Not 'phew', but 'wow'!!! Like the lady said: 'This guy's dynamite!'
You're right, Bellamarie. Let's look for the purpose.
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Jonathan, I have NO pity what so ever for Mr. Slope. What a cad!! How dare him court the idea of marrying Eleanor for her money, while thinking He could continue to carry on with Senora Neroni on her couch. I say Hooray for her for calling Slope out for the fraud he is. Now let Eleanor throw him out as well. Imagine the ruined reputation dear ole Rev. Slope will earn should this all get out. He just may have to pack his bags and leave town, with shame, if the Bishop doesn’t throw him out on his cheating head. Trust me, I did not miss all that drama, I only skimmed over Chapter XXII, dealing with all the descriptions of house decor. Ugh!!!
Maybe I should have taken this by the spoonful, rather than by the cupful. Slow and steady, rather than fast and furious.
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Ok I was confused Bellamarie about the 'rooms' you were referring in chapter XXII that you were skipping through - For me I was reading this dense chapter as filled with one reference to a piece of literature after another, used by Trollop, as I see it, to let us know of the deep knowledge and scholarship of the Thornes...
The many, many allusions appear to be so that the reader understands the Thornes deep roots in Historical and Literary tradition as well as, the tradition of the Anglican church -
We start off the first sentence referring to the Thirty-nine Articles and Arabin admitting himself to the benefice in the Church of England by reading publicly the Thirty-nine Articles and the Declaration of Assent. What could be more towering.
Declaration of Assent (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ecclesiastical-law-journal/article/church-of-englands-declaration-of-assent/BE92BE52FA4FED0FB8590393B849FF0A)
Thirty-nine Articles (http://anglicansonline.org/basics/thirty-nine_articles.html)
On the same page he references to Henry Fielding's Tom Jones with Squire Western, who is the bad-tempered, fox-hunting, hard-drinking father of Sophia Western in Tom Jones. Here is a synopsis of Tom Jones with a Character list. http://www.christianregency.com/Research/PoemsAndNovels/The%20History%20of%20Tom%20Jones-Summary.pdf (http://www.christianregency.com/Research/PoemsAndNovels/The%20History%20of%20Tom%20Jones-Summary.pdf)
He then references someone I had never heard of - Montaigne and Burton - Michel de Montaigne is a French essayist whose Essays were first translated into English in 1603 and Robert Burton author of The Anatomy of Melancholy first published in 1621. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3600/3600-h/3600-h.htm (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3600/3600-h/3600-h.htm)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10800/10800-h/10800-h.htm (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10800/10800-h/10800-h.htm)
Then he names the well known journals of the day, the Idler...
And finishing just that page he mentions Edinburghs and Quarterlies - the Whig Edinburgh Review and the Tory Quarterly Review.
Next he references Cedric the Saxon the father of Ivanhoe in Walter Scott's novel - Cedric is determined to restore the Saxon kings to the throne of England. http://www.walterscott.lib.ed.ac.uk/works/novels/ivanhoe.html (http://www.walterscott.lib.ed.ac.uk/works/novels/ivanhoe.html)
Trollop throws in Ealfried which is not an Anglo-Saxon name but his way of being satirical. And so, if we had the literary education of Victorian Britain we would know all this - although, reading Ivanhoe may no longer be required and I am old but not that old, for us it was required reading fist year high school along with The Song of Roland. ;)
Then he mentions Sophocles, followed by another set of names new to me, Fitzgeralds and De Burghs - French names therefore, Norman decent making affectionate fun contrasting the indigenous, freedom-loving Saxons with the Norman invaders in terms of Saxon gentry and Norman aristocrats.
He continues with Howards and Lowthers...Talbots - the Howards are a noble and ancient family, claiming decent from Hereward the Wake the 11th century leader resisting the Normans and the Lowthers are a powerful gentry family raised to peerage in 1696 and the Talbots were the Norman earls of Shrewsbury form early 15th c.
inchor in Greek Mythology is a golden ethereal fluid that flowed like blood in the veins of the gods.
These references go on and on through this entire chapter - it takes forever to read the chapter just looking up the references that today are not at our finger tips.
My thought is this chapter is an homage to Trollop's mother who was an author and would know all these references a he does. In the story I think Trollop is showing us those who live in this grand house, Ullathorne to be above the cut among the nobles living in these grand Country Houses as they were called. Think Downton Abby...
To add to all this Trollop lived for a time in Australia and a William not Wilfred but, William Bernard Ullathorne, (born May 7, 1806, Pocklington, Yorkshire, Eng.—died March 21, 1889, Oscott, Warwickshire), is a Roman Catholic missionary to Australia and first bishop of Birmingham, Eng. He was influential in securing the final abolition (1857) of the British system of transporting convicts to Australia.
Suggests to me that Trollop is tying the Thornes to the High Church with maybe close ties to Newman and the Oxford movement. There is another book by Trollop entitled, Doctor Thorne so the Thorne story is far more than what we read in Barchester Towers.
This chapter alone is so full and dense that to read even excerpts of all the references would take weeks - I sure have a reading list as a result...
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Jonathan it will take me more time to fathom Arabin - I do not cotton to him and so it is more difficult to give him the attention he needs - I have a gut feeling though it would be wise to get into his shoes in order to enjoy the remainder of the story. No more Sunday afternoon stroll or easy characterization into a PBS movie is the reading of Barchester Towers. These two chapters, XXI and XXII are full. sheesh
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P.S. just dawned on me Bellamarie Chapter XXII is describing the big country house in the 6th video series of the Barchester Chronicles where the magnificent garden party takes place based on the medieval fair and the owners of the house, the Thorne's. What can be done in pictures take words to set the scene and the movie instead of going into a reference to all the book simply summed it up by saying the garden party was based on the medieval.
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Oh Barb, I knew you would come through for us! Phew.... just reading your post started to dizzy my head again. I realized early on Tollope's intent to familiarize us with the grandness of "The Thornes of Ullathorne, but he was showing off a bit himself, with all the book titles and such. Interesting, the point you make of his mother being an author, so this could be for her benefit. Now all us readers who know little about Trollope, nor have read any of his books before now, would wonder why on earth did he carry on like this. Thank you so much for the clarity. I'll have to go back and watch the video to really appreciate these words in motion, and seeing with my own eyes, the grandness of the house. I admit to not watching the video in full as yet. I have a feeling in the movie all these book titles and descriptions are not mentioned, because as they say.... A picture is worth a thousand words. Downton Abbey indeed! Oh how I miss that show.
My verdict is still out on Arabin, but I daresay the author doth protest too much, as to Eleanor NOT being in love.
Chapter XXIV our author is determined to convince the reader, Eleanor is not in love with anyone:
"Twas thus he (Arabin) spoke of signora, coming home in the archdeacon's carriage, and Eleanor by no means liked to hear the praise.
It was unfair that she had herself spent a very pleasant evening with Bertie Stanhope, who had taken her down to dinner and had not left her side for one moment after the gentlemen came out of the dining-room. It was unfair that she should amuse herself with Bertie and yet begrudge her new friend his license of amusing himself with Bertie's sister. And yet she did so. She was half-angry with him in the carriage and said something about meretricious manners. Mr. Arabin did not understand the ways of women very well, or else he might have flattered himself that Eleanor was in love with him.
But Eleanor was not in love with him.
It does not require that a woman should be in love to be irritated at this; it does not require that she should even acknowledge to herself that it i unpleasant to her. Eleanor had no such self-knowledge. She thought in her own heart that it was only on Mr. Arabin's account that she regretted that he could condescend to be amused by the signora. "I thought he had more mind," she said to herself as she sat watching her baby's cradle on her return from the party. "After all, I believe Mr. Stanhope is the pleasanter man of the two." Alas for the memory of poor John Bold! Eleanor was not in love with Bertie Stanhope, nor was she in love with Mr. Arabin. But her devotion to her late husband was fast fading when she could revolve in her mind over the cradle of his infant the faults and findings of other aspirants to her favor.
Will anyone blame my heroine for this? Let him or her rather thank God for all His goodness__for His mercy endureth forever.
Eleanor in truth, was not in love; neither was Mr. Arabin. Neither indeed was Bertie Stanhope.
But let it be clearly understood that Eleanor was in love with no one and that no one was in love with Eleanor.
Hmmm..... for me, when someone is trying so hard to convince me of something, it makes me think the opposite. So we shall see if Eleanor is or is not in love, or possibly allowing herself to be open to being in love with someone else, other than her late husband.
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Barb, "Neither Bertie or Slope are good marriage partners for any woman much less our Eleanor who dislikes the controversy between clerics and for sure shows her temperament to be as her father, Reverend Hardy who is not a combative man."
Hmmmmm...... I am not so sure our Eleanor is as much like her father the Rev. Hardy who is not a combative man, as you point out, when it comes to her falling in love. I suspect she has a very strong opinion, and will not be shy to let it be known. Although our author has mentioned Arabin is a bit shy, I feel he too has shown to not be so timid when it comes to the attention of the signora. Isn't it bewildering how men can be in the presence of a beautiful woman, and become so bewitched? Human nature does have a way of winning out. All good love stories must have a seductress, who woes the men, making the more genteel women jealous.
I'm surprised our dear Trollope in all his book titles did not include such a poem as this:
The Spider and the Fly
“Will you walk into my parlour?” said the Spider to the Fly,
'Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
And I've a many curious things to show when you are there.”
“Oh no, no,” said the little Fly, “to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair can never come down again.”
“I'm sure you must be weary, dear, with soaring up so high;
Will you rest upon my little bed?” said the Spider to the Fly.
“There are pretty curtains drawn around; the sheets are fine and thin,
And if you like to rest awhile, I'll snugly tuck you in!”
“Oh no, no,” said the little Fly, “for I've often heard it said,
They never, never wake again, who sleep upon your bed!”
Said the cunning Spider to the Fly, “Dear friend what can I do,
To prove the warm affection I 've always felt for you?
I have within my pantry, good store of all that's nice;
I'm sure you're very welcome — will you please to take a slice?”
“Oh no, no,” said the little Fly, “kind Sir, that cannot be,
I've heard what's in your pantry, and I do not wish to see!”
“Sweet creature!” said the Spider, “you're witty and you're wise,
How handsome are your gauzy wings, how brilliant are your eyes!
I've a little looking-glass upon my parlour shelf,
If you'll step in one moment, dear, you shall behold yourself.”
“I thank you, gentle sir,” she said, “for what you're pleased to say,
And bidding you good morning now, I'll call another day.”
The Spider turned him round about, and went into his den,
For well he knew the silly Fly would soon come back again:
So he wove a subtle web, in a little corner sly,
And set his table ready, to dine upon the Fly.
Then he came out to his door again, and merrily did sing,
“Come hither, hither, pretty Fly, with the pearl and silver wing;
Your robes are green and purple — there's a crest upon your head;
Your eyes are like the diamond bright, but mine are dull as lead!”
Alas, alas! how very soon this silly little Fly,
Hearing his wily, flattering words, came slowly flitting by;
With buzzing wings she hung aloft, then near and nearer drew,
Thinking only of her brilliant eyes, and green and purple hue —
Thinking only of her crested head — poor foolish thing!
At last,
Up jumped the cunning Spider, and fiercely held her fast.
He dragged her up his winding stair, into his dismal den,
Within his little parlour — but she ne'er came out again!
And now dear little children, who may this story read,
To idle, silly flattering words, I pray you ne'er give heed:
Unto an evil counsellor, close heart and ear and eye,
And take a lesson from this tale, of the Spider and the Fly.
~By Mary Howitt, 1829
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spider_and_the_Fly_(poem)
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Ha I love it - The Spider and the Fly - perfect...
Took time today during class breaks to re-read the chapter Mr. Arabin - much of his early school life was a copy of Trollop's school experience - I wonder if Trollop felt like a boy who faded into the woodwork as he describes Arabin. Appears Arabin worked so hard to achieve anything in life including, being worthy of his calling and how he would express that calling, either as a Protestant or a Roman Catholic - He chose Protestant but, to be worthy he lived as close as anyone to the life of a Catholic priest and finds himself at age 40 having missed out on establishing a family life that he found so agreeable while visiting Archdeacon Gravely. And so now I can see that he has a more 'wholesome' intent for family and home compared to Slope and Bertie, both who only see in Eleanore, dollars.
Tried to figure out why the whole bunch of them annoyed me and finally I realized none of them do anything - they are all great with words and books and people are their currency - the only one who does anything is Reverend Hardy, who at least plays the cello but then he is so self effacing he drives me mad. I can smile at the bluster of the Archdeacon but see nothing, no passion for life or to create good for others. I guess you can say he was about the business of creating good for Arabin when he and Mrs. Grantly scoured the house for repairs that Arabin will take over at St. Ewold's.
Now if any of the men were on their horses overseeing the estate but, I get the impression there really isn't a large estate to oversee - gardeners and the like are hired so that the close is more like a large suburban compound - As to the ladies, they do not even organize charitable projects - nothing - I like people that do things in addition to being well read and who engage in discussing many subjects. For that matter Signora Neroni organizes, not only others but she organizes her participation with others - she is more alive than any of the other women - best so far is Miss Thorne and William Thorne - they pursue their interest in what they read and all things medieval.
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Barb, "Appears Arabin worked so hard to achieve anything in life including, being worthy of his calling and how he would express that calling, either as a Protestant or a Roman Catholic - He chose Protestant but, to be worthy he lived as close as anyone to the life of a Catholic priest and finds himself at age 40 having missed out on establishing a family life that he found so agreeable while visiting Archdeacon Gravely. And so now I can see that he has a more 'wholesome' intent for family and home compared to Slope and Bertie, both who only see in Eleanore, dollars."
I too, am seeing Mr. Arabin a much better person in character, and Christianity, compared to Slope or Bertie. Just in re reading their first sermons to the congregation, their choice of scriptures, words during their Homily, delivery, and how the members received them gives great insight to the man they are. Arabin, appears to me, to be a deep thinker, a true Christian, who cares about his members, where Slope seems to care more about himself. Has Tollope succeeded in winning the readers over to Mr. Arabin's side, and will this be an indication of which will win Eleanor's heart? We shall see.....
Comparing Mr. Slope’s first sermon to Mr. Arabin’s:
There was, at any rate, no tedium felt in listening to Mr. Slope on the occasion in question. His subject came too home to his audience to be dull, and to tell the truth Mr. Slope had the gift of using words forcibly. He was heard through his thirty minutes of eloquence with mute attention and open ears, but with angry eyes, which glared round from one enraged parson to another, with wide-spread nostrils from which already burst forth fumes of indignation, and with many shufflings of the feet and uneasy motions of the body, which betokened minds disturbed and hearts not at peace with all the world.
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Mr. Arabin, however, had not the modesty of youth to impede him, and he succeeded with his sermon even better than with the lessons. He took for his text two verses out of the second epistle of St. John, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God-speed.” He told them that the house of theirs to which he alluded was this their church, in which he now addressed them for the first time; that their most welcome and proper manner of bidding him God-speed would be their patient obedience to his teaching of the gospel; but that he could put forward no claim to such conduct on their part unless he taught them the great Christian doctrine of works and faith combined. On this he enlarged, but not very amply, and after twenty minutes succeeded in sending his new friends home to their baked mutton and pudding well pleased with their new minister.
We have had both type of priests described in each of these men in my parish, and I can tell you already, our members would not take a liking to Mr. Slope, because we would see right through him. Mr. Arabin, I can see fitting right in with my parish and community.
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Well what started off as a bang dwindled to just you and I Bellamarie - with the holiday season starting I think a reset is in order -
I am going to move up the next read to start tomorrow Sunday the 29th so that instead of only 7 chapters for the week - we can do this book in the next 2 weeks by adding 4 more chapters next week and the final week also add 4 chapters and the start of each of the next two weeks will be on Sunday.
So new Schedule - and it may be just us Bellamarie - I am like, the Shakespeare Sonnets reluctant to leave something unfinished.
October 29 to November 4 - Chapters 28 Mrs. Bold is entertained by Dr. and Mrs. Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39 The Lookalofts and the Greenacres.
November 5 to November 11 - Chapter 40 Ullathorne Sports - to - Chapter 53 Conclusion
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I have not read ahead, so I have no idea where this is going. I am very disappointed in the lack of participation in the discussions lately. Such good books, so little interest. I would post more often, but I feel like I am talking to myself. I peeked into the Library, and other topics and it seems little to no activity there as well. I do hope we are not seeing SeniorLearn coming to an end. Lurkers can not keep us alive, we need active participation.
Barb, if you are too busy, and can not find the time to contribute, I can finish the book at my leisure, or go watch the video on YouTube, and we can stop here.
:'( :-[
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I regret that I haven't contributed more to the discussion. It's not for lack of interest. I'm absolutely engrossed in Trollope's story and his style. But it's constantly "What can I say to this?" What curious characters. What complex situations. A good example is the comparison suggested by Bellamarie of the two preaching styles of Rev Slope and Rev Arabin. Both are fighting for the hearts and minds of the nice people of Barchester. Both attempting to win the heart of Elineor, who is not interested in romance. What a study in character. The English character.
Isn't Squire Thorne something else. I'm impressed by his bloodline. And his intellectual curiousity. Anyone who is hooked on Burton and Montaigne has my respect. I love both authors myself. Montaigne's Essays, I remember reading somewhere. were General Eisenhower's favorite reading. Just recently I picked up Sarah Bakewell's biography: How To Live: A Life of Montaigne in one question and twenty attempts at an answer. That's the question: How to Live? And the answers: Don't worry about death. Pay attention. Be born. Read a lot. Survive love and loss. Use little tricks. Question everything. Keep a private room behind the shop. Be convivial: live with others. Wake from the sleep of habit. Live temperately. Guard your humanity. Do something no one has done before. See the world. Do a good job. Philosophise only by accident. Reflect on everything; regret nothing. Give up control. Be ordinary and imperfect. Let life be its own answer.
And Burton's Melancholy is just as interesting. A Rennaissance Freud. With a difference. The book is a royal road to learning. And so it goes. Isn't Trollope a great tourist guide to Victorian England!
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Just read your post, Bellamarie. How sad. So many voices have fallen silent.
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Bless you both - not planning to end here but if you are also thinking your time is full, we can - it is up to y'all - I just thought to change the discussion time from the next 3 weeks to the next 2 weeks - I will work with what ever you decide - Bellamarie please do not hesitate to state your druthers - if you prefer then we can stop - again, I will be glad to go another 2 weeks - or even if y'all decide just another week - in a week's time I do not think we can read the entire book and make observations however it gives us a chance to wrap up - or we can stop now.
I've an idea - we could just relax and if we go days without any posts - then so be it - instead of questions to consider I will just post the chapters so that at least one day during the week we can sum up our impressions - again, I will want to make it only for the next two weeks by reading a few more chapters each week - instead of 7 chapters we would be reading 11 chapters - hindsight, it would have been better to start in mid-September but here we are and as the saying goes - When something goes wrong, stop and yell, PLOT TWIST and go on... rather a PLOT TWIST than feeling guilty that the discussion was not up to our expectations.
I too Jonathan am blown away with the many references to the politics of the day and the many authors he quotes off the tip of his tongue - as you say, "The book is a royal road to learning." Moreover, it does help in that my edition does have a star next to anything that is further explained in the annotated notes - reading the notes gives far more impact to the wit he uses describing characters however, without the notes it can still be a straight up story that holds its own.
Frankly, I want to get into reading something about these historical events and the many authors he references - yes, a royal road to learning but not now - the holidays are descending and I was never made so aware then this norther that blew in yesterday - a joke here in Central Texas, better seen as a video, as we wrap our selves as if hiking the Alps anytime the temp in the area is below 65 - Last night it was 38 in town and will be again that cold tonight with it only reaching 57 during the day today - The streets are free of all traffic - everyone is home keeping warm and getting ready for the next 2 months packed with holidays.
Neighborhood Halloween parties galore starting tonight and then the big Mexican Parties on Monday for the Day of the Dead - and on TV (the modern fireplace hearth) both College and High School football are big and of course we are all watching the Astros. Wouldn't that be grand if they win - we shall see what we shall see.
And so with all of that, the nineteenth century garden parties and squabbles over who will work with the old folks and who will win what girl and how the Corn Law was or was not a cause for Britain's success or failure seems like an invitation to read more and more of the referenced material and more and more of Trollop which, with all the Autumn-edge-of-your-seat hoopla taking first place the timing is off for in-depth study.
Again, just give me a hint which way y'all would prefer to see this discussion move along or if you would prefer to stop. As I say we can simply leave it open and let posts be a sometimes happening.
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Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers
Fourth Week, October 29 - November 4
Discussing, Chapter 28 - to - Chapter 39
Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.
Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent.
"Yes, Slope, I think that would be best; and you may be sure that any little I can do to forward your views shall be done.'
Mr. Slope had now much business on his hands. He had to make his daily visit to the Signora.
| (http://www.myfreewallpapers.net/artistic/wallpapers/constable-salisburry-cathedral-from-the-bishops-grounds.jpg) |
Please post your impressions, questions, observations and research ---
The schedule for our discussion
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39, The Lookalofts and the Greenacres.
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Barb and Jonathan, bless your hearts. Some where earlier in one of your posts I remember reading how Trollope’s editor had suggested he shorten the book. I must say, I agree, the last half of the book seems to just be a bit much. Maybe it’s because the discussion fell off, but as Barb mentioned, when something goes wrong, stop and call plot twist! So, yes, plot twist..... let’s forget the questions. It’s a shame you put so much time and work into the questions, when there is so little input.
To be honest, after posting earlier, I went ahead and watched part six and seven of the YouTube video, and then went back to my book, and read backwards from the conclusion up to chapter 48. Since I kinda thought Eleanor and Arabin would eventually end up together, I wanted to see if I was correct. I will attempt to read the other chapters and continue to post this week, and see where we go from here. I can’t thank you enough for returning to our discussion and moderating this book. You always make the discussions so enlightening and interesting. But I understand you are very busy.
Jonathan, as usual, I always enjoy your insight and knowledge. You suggested two great books, and I am so very sorry we could not hold the interest of those who began the discussion with us. Lurkers, as they refer to themselves, do not realize how much we need their input and participation to keep the discussion alive.
Barb, I have not gotten into any pre holiday spirit as yet. Halloween is not a big holiday for me so no big parties to attend. Just going over to my son’s house on Tuesday to pass out candy, while they take the grandkids trick or treating. I do enjoy Saturday college football, but no Sunday football. When our hometown Cleveland Browns were taken to Baltimore, I just could not find the loyalty to the Ravens. Sunday is a fun day we either spend with the family, or my hubby and I try to find things to do outside the house, unless the weather is messy, then we hang out at home reading, playing word games, or watch movies after church.
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Here too - Sunday and weekday evening football took a sharp decline with all the pre-game controversy - but High School and Collage football is as big as ever and now, we have the Houston Astros going for the World's Series - a first - so the game is on everywhere.
Austin is a party town and more so now - everyone is fed up with so much controversy on TV - replacing with a good party including the kids has swept the town - we have 3 families in our neighborhood, who with the children's friends have turned their home into spooky houses - they have invited anyone in the neighborhood too come - reserving the earlier 6: to 7:30 time for folks with little kids so they can get home for a normal bedtime - plus the Methodist and the Episcopal church have Halloween parties Sunday afternoon and Sunday night the Catholic Church has a spooky walk since surrounding the church/school/parking area is a wooded area. Then as I say, Monday and Monday night is the big street party downtown as well as, in the Mexic-Arte Museum and in a few Catholic cemeteries celebrating the Day of the Dead.
This year I am starting to get things done for Christmas - knitting for all the grand boys fills most of my evenings. Today made a huge pot of thick chicken soup that I've frozen in serving size containers so I do not have to spend time each day cooking. I really want to sand and paint the front door before Thanksgiving and find some bulbs to force bloom for Christmas plus bake cookies for the school crossing guards at both schools and the firemen who are so good to us in this neighborhood.
I pulled down all the Christmas books yesterday - wish I had some on Cds - would love to hear some of these stories read aloud while I am knitting - had not been doing any of this for years, usually I go to my daughter's for 2 weeks at Christmas but not this year - they will be wrapped up with the wedding of one of Cade's pals since grade school - and then Cade leaves immediately for South America and Ty will be home after Christmas for a few days - So I have my bucket list of all the things I want to do and see plus, I still have a listing in Georgetown to get sold.
To our discussion - years ago we agreed that we needed 3 participants to open a discussion - we had far more than three to start but things happen and so, as much as I love sharing and reading with both you, Bellamarie and you, Jonathan we needed a few more to help us fill in finding the references and a few more who can enlarge on the ideas that come to us so that it does not feel like we are talking to ourselves or talking too much. We'll just step back and let what happens happen - we will ease along posting what and when we have something to say but for sure the time is one week less than the original 3 weeks planned for the last half of the book.
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I apologize for signing up and then not participating.
My reading time was, as a friend says, OBE ("Overcome By Events") and the discussion just a bit too "scholarly" for the time I had to devote to study.
Even so, I'm still enjoying reading the book and intend to see how the story ends.
Thank you, Barb for all your work.
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We must see this book through to the end, Barb. I'm very eager to get through it so I can go on to another of Trollope's books that I now have on my shelf. Thank you so much for putting me onto him. How can a bishop of the Church of England be made to look so abject by his wife. How can the Reverend Slope be tied up in such emotional knots by the Signora Neroni in the chapter, A Love Scene. There was another book on the bookseller's shelf that I should go back for. Trollope and his Women. It seems to me he did a lot for 19C feminism.
I don't want you to have my experience. I'm persona non grata in Florence, Itlay. Do you remember the Brunelleschi Dome discussion a few years ago, which I was leading, and ended half-way through for lack of interest? And left Florence without its dome. I don't dare go there. They're mean. Just look at the trouble Dante had there.
You reccommended another good book on the subject which I have. The Feud That Sparked The Renaissance, by Paul Robert Walker. It is excellent. Gotta go. I'm called to dinner.
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We'll push on Jonathan - lets see how we do this week - and you are right - he does make his women strong characters - talk about Mrs Proudie how about Mrs. Quiverful, a lioness going further then her husband to secure the promotion in last weeks chapter 25.
'E'en such a man, so faint, so spiritless,
So dull, so dead in look, so woe-begone,
Drew Priam's curtain in the dead of night."
From Shakespeare's Henry IV - in my way of thinking, not only does the quote work for Mrs. Quiverful explaining away the Reverend Quiverful but it works for the Mrs. Proudie and her Bishop and explains Reverend Hardy - for that matter, as sincere a good fellow in Arabin it would work for him as well. All of them are 'don't rock the boat' types. Slope is a mover and shaker regardless of his moral turpitude and at least 'off with his head' Archdeacon Grantly has his bluster. Bertie is a scamp but for sure not dull or spiritless and Mr. Thorne is the sanest active male in the entire story. Where as, all the women have it hands down.
Never heard the word laches as in, 'laches committed were none of her committing.' turns out laches means culpable or negligence.
Amazing that an entire chapter can be written about a letter sent and received and how all those who were aware of the letter had their impression of what was said covertly and outwardly in the letter. Just amazing - can you imagine that kind of reaction to a Text sent today... ::) Talk about understanding body language and a letter exchanged from your own sensibilities - wow...
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Although it was considerably shorter, the same thing happened in the Cranford discussion. The old joke about Dickens that the biggest mistake in the world was paying him by the word. The same may be said of Trollope. I have always attributed the wordiness to the Victorian style and assumed that the readers were more patient than we are. By we, I mean present day readers, not just us. Look at George Eliot's Middlemarch which many claim is the best novel in the English Language. It is umungous. Even I who professes to love Victorian literature, have lost interest in Barchester. I loved the tv series. Perhaps adding the action that is necessary for the screen is what makes seeing it rather than reading it more attractive. Anyway, I am sorry I haven't kept up. Perhaps we would be better off with a contemporary novel next time. I hate to see this group end, but we do seem to be floundering.
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Sorry you lost interest Karen - and yes, the Victorians have their way with words.
Words, words, words, all I hear are words;
Don't talk of stars, burning above
If you're in love, show me
Tell me not dreams, filled with desire
If you're on fire, show me
Never do I ever want to hear another word
There isn't one, I haven't heard
Here we are together in what ought to be a dream
Say one more word and I'll scream ;)
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Chapter 29 starts off letting us know the status of a woman - as a married lady the Archdeacon would not scold Eleanore but it appears now she is open game in many ways - to be scolded - to be wooed - it sounds also as if being scolded as an adult women would be an appropriate role for a brother - my oh my... and a soft womanly tone is the preferred way of speaking. ::)
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Don't you love it... "Mr. Arabin had never thought of trimming the sails of his bark so that he might sail as convoy to this rich argosy." Talk about words... ;D
And so we finally see some warm blood pumping in the veins of Mr. Arabin just because of a family feud over the close attachment this rich argosy has to another, Obadiah Slope!
Followed by a quote from Van Artevelde - never heard of him but he is considered One of Eighteen literary giants of English Literature - not just Victorian but all English Literature - another of Jonathan's royal road to learning
All to say that the movie could not show us chapter 30 - oh oh oh - did not realize the depth of Mr. Arabin and the proud spunk of Eleanore comes through in her bearing but the thoughts of Mr. Arabin was worth all the words in the chapter - wunderbar Mr. Anthony Trollop.
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I love all the words and am finding that reading the text "aloud" in my head is helping me get a "tone" for the phrasing. Of course, I have a similar sense of humor so am enjoying the subtle (and, sometimes, not so subtle...) "snarky" observations.
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Great idea Callie - wouldn't this be a wonderful book to hear on tape or whatever the devises are used today where someone reads a book -
Love this in chapter 32 - "That the prestige of continual victory should have been torn from her standards was a subject of great sorrow to that militant lady, but, though defeated, she was not overcome. She felt that she might yet recover her lost ground, that she might yet hurl Mr. Slope down to the dust from which she had picked him and force her sinning lord to sue for pardon in sackcloth and ashes."
"Hurl Mr. Slope down to the dust" - love it, just love it... "and force her sinning lord to sue for pardon in sackcloth and ashes" now that is serious he-is-beneath-me-outrage.
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Jonathan, Don't worry, we are going no where. Barb and I got through Shakespeare's Sonnets, and Pinocchio, so hang in there and the three of us, and anyone else who wants to jump in, will indeed see Tollope's Barchester to the end! We sure would not want to be banned from England.
Callie, You won't regret sticking it out to the end. Lots of action and accusations in the second half of the book. WOW! What a party for Mr. Arabin.
Karen, YES!!! You nailed it! The first time I read Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, it was my first experience in reading Victorian wordy books. I must say, it took me a little bit of time to acclimate myself not only to the tone, but also the wordiness of the book. I thought, oh my heavens how does she use so many words to get the point over. I thought about your point about the writers and readers being so much more patient back in that era. Today, everything is instant gratification, that yes, taking the time to read a lengthy book is a real feat, especially when it's a Trollope book that has so many characters to keep up with. I too watched the video on youtube, and I can tell you the book is a thousand times better!!!! The movie helped me put a face to the characters, but honestly, the movie lacks the personality and humor that Trollope has created in the book.
Barb, I too am enjoying these next chapters. I am glad I backed up and started with this week's reading. Oh my, they sure have assumed a lot of our Eleanor. She is proving to have more spunk than anyone expected of her. I love how she stood up to the Archbishop and Mr. Arabin. And poor Mr. Slope, (I say in jest) she sure gave him a wallop! The movie did not do this scene justice what so ever!
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What is the wallop that Eleanor gives Mr Slope? Does she cut off the tresses that he dared to mention in his letter to her?
I'm pleased to hear that the book keeps getting better and that we will continue through to the end. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Trollope felt that character and situation were more important than plot. And hasn't he got his people in a most unusual conflict. Clergymen in a state of war. Not a christian among them Fighting over the fish and the loaves.
When I was a young man I wondered that my female acquaintances were so unusually well informed about human relations. Now I put it down to their reading these Victorian novelists, and perhaps especially Trollope.
Words. Words, Words. I appreciate what has been said about them, but can someone tell me the word that's wanted in this quote from Chapter 28?
'And he, foolish, weak, loving man, would not say one word, though one word would have cleared up everything. There would have been a deluge of tears, and in ten minutes everyone in the house would have understood how matters really were. The father would have been delighted. The sister would have kissed her sister and begged a thousand pardons. The archdeacon would have apologized and wondered, and raised his eyebrows, and gone to bed a happy man. And Mr Arabin - Mr Arabin would have dreamt of Eleanor, have awoke in the morning with ideas of love, and retired to rest the next evening with schemes of marriage. But, alas, all this was not to be.'
What a difference the right word can make. Why am I reminded of the lines. 'Water, water, everywhere, but not a drop to drink.'
These clergymen are 'warring' among each other, over the fish and the loaves provided by the church. It certainly gives the expression the 'church militant' a new meaning.
Eleanor seems so like her father, the saint, in some ways. She hates Mr Slope but cannot offend him if he is fighting for her father.
The World Series kept me up until 1 o'clock last night. Interesting to see two presidents doing the ceremonial thing. For the first time ever I want neither side to lose.
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Pusillanimous Arabin drowning in silence. :D
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Jonathan, "When I was a young man I wondered that my female acquaintances were so unusually well informed about human relations. Now I put it down to their reading these Victorian novelists, and perhaps especially Trollope."
Oh, if only I would have had the privilege of reading Jane Austen, or Trollope books back when. Growing up we had no access to a library, and had no books to read in my house. I craved books, and I am thinking it's the reason I have such an imagination, from creating stories in my head as a child. My extent of any reading material that I can remember was Pippi Longstocking, a mischievous little girl in pigtails that was more a tomboy, than a frilly girl. So, when I got married, my older sister recommended me to read some Harlequin romance novels, and another book I will not divulge, to help inform me as you say, "human relations." Oh the innocence I had back then, if only the girls of today could value that, and not advance so quickly. I fear romance is out the window, and it's more about instantaneous gratification in the world today. Women's lib seems to have given females the right to be careless and carefree in relationships, taking with it the beauty of these type of love stories. Now we have Madonna, and Ashley Judd taking to the podium yelling, "Nasty Women!" Oh how I pray I will never be tempted to be a part of this attitude.
Ooops..... we'll save the discussion on the wallop Mr. Slope receives from Eleanor for the next week's reading. I dare say I got ahead of myself.
I do see Eleanor much like her father as being a good Christian, but I think she is far more stronger in mind than her father, and ready and able to speak her mind ONLY when she sees fit. Poor troubled Mr. Arabin is seeing just how strong minded our Eleanor is:
Chapter 38
He had sat there alone with his glass before him, and then with his tea-pot, thinking about Eleanor Bold. As is usual in such meditations, he did little but blame her; blame her for liking Mr. Slope, and blame her for not liking him; blame her for her cordiality to himself, blame her for her want of cordiality; blame her for being stubborn, headstrong, and passionate; and yet more he thought of her the higher she rose in his affection. If only it should turn out, if only it could be made to turn out, that she had defended Mr. Slope, not from love, but on principle, all would be right. Such principle in itself would be admirable, lovable, womanly; he felt that he could be pleased to allow Mr. Slope just so much favour as that. But if__And then Mr. Arabin poked his fire most unnecessarily, spoke crossly to his new parlor-maid who came in for the tea-things, and threw himself back in his chair determined to go to sleep.. Why had she been so stiff-necked when asked a plain question? She could not but have known in what light he regarded her. Why had she not answered a plain question and so put an end to his misery? Then, instead of going to sleep in his armchair, Mr. Arabin walked about the room as though he had been possessed.
A man in love indeed!
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Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers
Fourth Week, October 29 - November 4
Discussing, Chapter 28 - to - Chapter 39
Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.
Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent.
"Yes, Slope, I think that would be best; and you may be sure that any little I can do to forward your views shall be done.'
Mr. Slope had now much business on his hands. He had to make his daily visit to the Signora.
| (http://www.myfreewallpapers.net/artistic/wallpapers/constable-salisburry-cathedral-from-the-bishops-grounds.jpg) |
Please post your impressions, questions, observations and research ---
The schedule for our discussion
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39, The Lookalofts and the Greenacres.
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
Jonathan, "Clergymen in a state of war. Not a christian among them Fighting over the fish and the loaves."
Now, my friend I am sensing Tollope's humor is rubbing off onto you. This was a laugh out loud moment reading your assessment of the clergymen. It does appear in this era the first question on anyone's mind is, "How much money is involved?" Whether it be marriage, accepting positions, careers, or dowry, first and foremost is the how much money is involved. I have to say my Mom once told me, "You can love a man with money, as well as one without." Considering we grew up in a small town rural area, living off the land, and not having nice material things, just the bare necessities, I imagine she was hoping all of her six daughters would marry princes rather than paupers. NOT that my Daddy was a pauper, he would have provided our family as a Prince, had he not gotten killed in a train wreck leaving her a widow with seven small children. Hence is where my strong faith comes from, since many a times the loaves multiplied at our dinner table, like manna from Heaven.
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Bellamarie, you have really inspired me to pick up the rest of the book and finish it. When I was a freshman in high school, we were assigned David Copperfield to read in six weeks in addition to all our other homework. I never thought I was going to finish the 800 pages that lay before me. I did finish in spite of the endless words and count it as my first academic accomplishment. I want to paraphrase Dorothy Parker when she was asked what she loved about writing. She said that she loved having written. I love having read David Copperfield and I will love having read Barchester Towers. By the way, I was fifty before I read Jane Eyrewhich I loved. However, it was very sad for me that I didn't read it when I was 16.
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Bellamarie you post to Jonathan has company ;) :D
Yes, agree with both of you - regardless called loaves and fishes or dowry or a living income, money seems to be the underlying message in every encounter - even the choice of characterization for Mr. Thorne - he just happens to live in the most comfortable of circumstances letting us know that money is everything including, being well read, having interests to pursue, being a congenial host, and an all round, outspoken, enthusiastic, good fellow.
The more you think of it though, Dickens certainly made us aware of debtors prison and what folks would do for money and what they were reduced to without - and so this time in at least Britain, money was a big issue - we hear of many who go abroad to make their fortune like Heathcliff and others - even Jane Austin's stories are based on money being the root of your status in life. There were no usury laws and this is when the Rothschilds made their fortune lending money, even to nations. And so it appears Trollop is being true to his earlier statement, I think it was Arabin who says that clerics are similar to any profession that has its squabbles and its learning curve which would also include, its need for personal income as well as, building and maintenance of church property.
Do not know how the Catholic priest is paid - I do know from the Sunday collection 10% goes to Rome and 15% goes to the Bishop which is why there are all these separate money earning events to make church repairs or to build because those collections are not subject to the same sharing obligation as the Sunday collections.
I do know that the nuns, since Vatican II put them on their own financially, have been very wise investing and are worth millions, so much more than the priests. With fewer and fewer young women joining the orders they remaining nuns are very wealthy and that was the basis of the Vatican trying to control the nuns a couple of years ago and they are still at it but not as aggressively - they really want control of the accumulated wealth. So money is still playing its role among the clergy.
It is a head snapper to read about the clergy and their advancement meaning an increase in their income since we were brought up to think our collection basket donations was saving babies in some far off part of the world or helping the poor or even adding space to the the parish school and never imagined our hard earned dollars were bringing wealth to the Bishop and to Rome. Unless we served on the parish governing committee we had no idea how the pastor and other priests were paid - a parish that was an extension of an 'order', like the Benedictines or the Franciscans, had financial help from the order but then in return there was money sent back to the monastery or abbey just as a diocesan parish sends money to the Bishop. Maybe that whole thing about it being impolite to talk about money still carries on when it comes to the clergy hmmm in this day and age I wonder if parishioners can handle transparency.
Bellamarie I like how you bring to our attention - "Poor troubled Mr. Arabin is seeing just how strong minded our Eleanor is:" goes with Jonathan's remark earlier about how Trollop writes about women.
Found this quote - surely written since the 1970s but for sure would fit our Eleanore - A woman needs someone not to take care of them but to care for them - and then I love this one that also explains our Eleanore and for that matter, her sister and the Signora - it is what Mrs. Proudie does not have and that lack is probably at the bottom of her dislike for the Signora since she was getting or rather taking her validation from Slope and her position as the Bishop's wife - the saying - The woman who does not need validation from anyone is the most feared individual on the planet.
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Karen - see you were posting as I was writing - oh do pick up the book again - so glad that Bellamarie inspired you - I hope you will add to the conversation - what I have decided is to read 2 chapters a day for 5 days and one chapter over the weekend - that way I can post a bit each day - hope you come up with a system that works for you. Looking forward to your visits... :)
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Does Rev Slope turn out to be the martyr in the end?
Getting a lesson in love. You all can't imagine the feelings with which I am reading Barchester Towers for the first time, at 88! It's bringing on such warm feelings. What it takes for love to take root and grow! Bring on adversity, misunderstanding and slander.
Poor pusillanimous Arabin. Can't you imagine him saying to Dr Grantly: There's more to life than is dreamed of in our theology.
My vote for Eleanor as first Bishop of Barchester, eventually.
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I've decided to sit down with my book and not get up until I finish it.
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Karen, you will not be disappointed in completing the book. There were parts that were dragging, but for the most part it's a book that will stay with me like Pride & Prejudice did, which is my all time favorite book ever I read. I have to admit I have read ahead, but have not read all the chapters. The best is yet to come!!!
Jonathan, you are going to love the next chapters, especially chapter XL Ullathorne Sports __ Act II, lots of action here! Mr. Slope a martyr? Oh heavens where on earth could you ever imagine that? After his lack of Christian character, trying to woe two women at the same time, he'll be lucky to still be a clergyman, once those rumors get out. In a small town, they always find their way out you know.
Barb, Interesting you mentioning priests and nuns being paid. I was of the notion priests were not allowed to own any homes, cars or have an income, that the church provided them with their basic needs. I will be seeing Fr. Miller tomorrow and will have to probe and see what he tells me. I do know that my hubby's first cousin Fr. Bob Reinhart retired, and his family provided wiith him a home. My hubby and I owned a cottage on a lake we inherited from his parents, which shared an easement with Fr. Bob's parents. We chose to sell our cottage to them, so they could in turn give them both to Fr. Bob when he retired. The two cottages would then have to be joined as one, due to changes in property size, digging a well, and having a seepage bed so many feet from the dwelling. It was getting very complicated, so we just agreed to sell, so Fr. Bob would have a home when he retired.
Yes, funny how money is the focus, yet as the saying goes, "Money is the root of all evil." Barchester appears to be a very well off town.
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It's hard to put this book down. I do so only to watch another ball game of the best World Series ever. And, of course, to read your posts. I feel I'm completing my education. As they say, follow the money. Unbelievable wealth came into the hands of the church people. Just consider what it took to build all those beautiful cathedrals. Surely it exceeded the US defense budget in medieaval times. And, of course, it made for a lot of good 'livings'. Breaking with Rome was good budgeting for Henry VIII.
'The woman who does not need validation from anyone is the most feared individual on the planet.'
'It fits Eleanor.' That's interesting, Barb. Would it fit Mrs Proudie? Could Mrs Proudie be seen as a hostile woman. I saw the book with that title in the bookstore yesterday. It caught my imagination.
Thanks for the promise of interesting reading ahead, Bellamarie. I'm laughing over your typo regarding Mr Slope: 'trying to woe two women at the same time'. Did you perhaps mean 'woo', or 'wow'? Perhaps he's capable of doing all three. He's very clever. As a 'martyr'? Perhaps your right. Perhaps I'm just looking for a surprise ending.
I think my next Trollope book will be The Prime Minister. Can he do for, or to, British politics, what he did to the Church of England?
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Woo, is what I meant Jonathan. But yes. perhaps he could to all three! :D :D
I went to All Saints Day/Grandparent's Day Mass/luncheon this morning with my granddaughter who is a sophomore and then a bit of shopping, so I am going to take a little rest before I have to go teach CCD and go to another Mass with my students. Phew.... I'll be ready to snuggle in tomorrow and try to finish up the chapters I have remaining. I think I am rooting for the Astros but to be honest, I never follow baseball, I just know so many who want the Astros to win.
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Interesting Bellamarie what the Bible says about money - we have shortened Timothy but other quotes do not seem to capture this need to interpret as the puritans.
Timothy 6:10 says, "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."
Matthew 6:24 says, "You cannot serve both God and money." hmm with all the talk of decreased earnings for the position of Bishop and Warden and how to better your earning through position sounds like what Trollop is shining his spotlight on - serving money which questions how you can also serve God.
Following is the bible verse that is probably at the root of all those Cathedrals Jonathan.
Malachi 3:10 - "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it."
Then there is the practice of the Catholic Church to give penance to the wealthy for their confessed sins that included the building of a shrine, a chapel, a library and in the case of one of the kings of Spain, forgot which one, he built an entire Cathedral - there were probably others but I only know of the one, I think he was a Phillip and so yes, old King Henry received lots of 'improved real estate' although, he and his daughter Elizabeth destroyed lots of books, art, valuable textiles and lots of people - ah so and the world moves on.
Jonathan that game last night was almost as good as the 5th - when the worst (yep an
Astro fan - horses of courses) was happening I was like a 5 year old wanting to bury my face in my mother's arm when the scary part came on the screen so, I actually got up and had to walk into the other room - tender hooks for tonight.
As to Mrs. Proudie being hostile - I think that is one of the causes of her hostility - she does need validation - she gets it from her position as the Bishop's wife therefore, she has value that is a one-upmanship over others and added to her value is Slope's attention and agreement with her views (now that we know Slope he probably agreed with Mrs. Proudie as a political move). Therefore, when he gives homage and flirts with Signora, who does not need validation, Mrs. Proudie sees his attention to another woman, who is not only more attractive and hold a noble title as an attack on her importance. She uses things like the proper dress code for the wife of a Bishop to elevate herself as the proper and good wife. Someone who does not need validation does not elevate themselves - like all the millionaires and billionaires who live in these parts dress in jeans because they are practical - they do not have to make a statement - they are their own person.
Well we have Mrs. Proudie biding her time after her husband makes it known he is the head of the household and he is the Bishop that all communication comes to him first - we shall see what we shall see - lots of backbone in Mrs. Proudie that she has used to advance her position.
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You have been busy today Bellamaire - looks like after all the rain and cold the weather we may be back to typical temps here tomorrow - hopefully we are not all crying in our beer but broadly smiling.
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This is a By the Way post - a nice and short video showing folks being a part of the Day of the Dead at the Mexican Culture Museum - not as party like with candles as the night time celebration or the Tejano music sung and danced to downtown but a flavor - this is folks getting ready that took place on Sunday.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/3yQ29sJPbi4?ecver=2" (https://www.youtube.com/embed/3yQ29sJPbi4?ecver=2")
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What is the purpose of Chapter 39? Some of the lowly get to be in the presence of the most high regarded, and the others feel left out.
"She told me she zee'd em come in-that they was dressed finer by half nor any of the family, with all their neckses a buzoms stak naked as a born babby." "The mines!" exclaimed Mrs. Greenacre, who felt herself more put about by this than any other mark of aristocratic distinction which her enemies has assumed. "Yes, indeed," continued Mrs. Guffern, "as naked as you please, while all the quality was dressed just as you and I be, Mrs. Greenacre." "Drat their impudence." said Mrs. Greenacre, from whose well-covered bosom all milk of human kindness was reeding, as far as the family of the Lookalofts were concerned.
Why had not Miss Thorne boldly gone to the intruder and said, "Friend, thous hast come up hither to high places not fitted to thee. Go down lower, and thou wilt find thy mates." Let the Lookalofts be treated at the present moment with ever so cold a shoulder, they would still be enabled to boast hereafter of their position, their aspirations, and their honour. "Well, with all her grandeur, I do wonder that she be so mean," continued Mrs. Greenacre, unable to dismiss the subject.
"Likening themselves to the quality, as though they were estated folk, or the like o' that!" said Mrs. Guffern.
Not quite sure why Trollope has this chapter, Barb, once again I will rely on your insights.
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ah Bellamarie - there had been a habit by some writers and very evident in earlier plays - Shakespeare and other playwrights - to have a small play within a play. Trollop does use many references to Hamlet. Hamlet does ask some strolling players to perform the Murder of Gonzago, that appears to have little to do with the goings on in the main story and yet, there is always a sublet shadow of some aspect of the main story.
There are few other opportunities in Trollop's story to bring in seamlessly a secondary group of characters, who are temporary to the story so that the 'garden party' or 'fair' arranged by the Thorne's is a perfect venue especially, that it includes games etc from an earlier time in English History when the class system had less players.
It is still spritzed among Brits the deep divide of class - just as we are becoming more tolerant of race but there are still issues - issues of race differences to the US is parallel to class difference in Britain.
Before the Civil Rights acts and the integration of schools in the late 60s and 70s the lack of professional jobs and the large amount of poverty was typical in the Black Community. It would have been a shock of complete disbelief to find a Black neighborhood of 100s of $500,000 + priced homes as there is in for instance Atlanta - During the years before WWII seeing a Black man or woman dressed similarly to a white couple meant they were in show business or underworld activities.
That kind of viewpoint of differences is basic to Britain over class. We can make in fun or think it silly or judge any way we would like but it is serious to the Brits - the schools you attend, the way you dress, even to the way you talk, your hobbies, your topic of conversation, your friends, are all poster board signs of your class. On the surface being the active owner of a large country estate working side by side with the game keeper or others who tend the land seems like they are amiable friends and yet, they both know their class and place far and above any system of filial relationship within the jobs. That side by system between owner, usually a noblemen, and supervisor or hired hand, whose job is often inherited from past workers on the estate is a working relationship that is dependent on traditional class boundaries far more than employer and employee.
And so, this little vignette, that Trollop includes shows how within the lower class (their language and how they describe proper dress is the tip off), within this lower class of folks attached to the land, there is a level of class within class based on association. Like the many who instead of using their extra income to build a healthy investment portfolio or acquire more land, use it to buy the trappings of a wealthier lifestyle with hopes of gaining admission to the next level, based on owning the trappings, so they can then have their sons and (since the later half of the 20th century) their daughters considered for admission to the schools and opportunities that allow them to climb a ladder of success.
We as a nation did it when we decided high school was to prepare students for collage and collage became the only worthwhile goal so that schools were stripped of industrial classes and the status of mechanics, plumbers, electricians, cosmetologist, even massage therapists, not only have less pay than a job requiring a collage education but, they are socially considered among a lower class - In the US class is not as important and all classes participate in positions like school board or putting on a community event - and judging things like a 4H project or a baking contest is not reserved only for the wealthy or even the collage educated where as, in Britain that would be normal.
And so, what I see in this chapter Lookalofts and Greenacres ( :D ::) their names give them away) is a bit of class one-upmanship and the squabbles among those who judge others because of their desire to improve their family's lot in life one way versus, the 'judging' parties chosen way. All this station of life is a counter and shadow-squabble to the shenanigans for position among the clergy and highlights the various class levels of clergy; Bishop versus the Dean, versus the Chaplin versus the lowly Warden etc. (I missed a few steps) - The Lookalofts and Greenacres are showing us how these levels of class importance play out among the clergy in how each are addressed, their levels of income, if they wear a suit or a robe or a surplice when they preach, whom they marry and that partner's family's class which is noted by the way the wife dresses etc etc. (big difference in how Eleanore and Mrs. Gravely dress as compared to Mrs. Quiverful) The class differences are within the church just as, the class differences are within a certain class as well as, the class differences over all.
The top of this food chain starts with the crown and then those families whose noble ancestry was established before the fifteenth and sixteenth century when the head of the family was predominant supporting the crown and were in return given title, status, land along with the obligation to fight in any war in order to protect the king and to collect the taxes that financed the crown/government. Originally, the higher class were these nobles, the church and the military. Later, merchants and scholars according to wealth and success were elevated to this higher level and their children also attended the established public schools, that we call private schools.
As to farmers, even those with larger land holdings, consorting with the likes of Mr. Thorne, whose family was probably among the nobility, is jumping many steps in the class system - The milk of human kindness mentioned is the way Trollop alludes to the nature of all the nudity that is so offensive to those who think as the puritans but, for sure denotes their class status that did not include dressing as the likes of the Stanhopes.
Knowing this class structure helps to understand further the humor in the film when Bertie befriends a drinking yokel and they are both lying on some hay as if equal and friends. No different than any white kid who befriends a black kid in school, back in the 1960s when the first Blacks were attending what were all white schools. (One thing to play together outside school, that happened all the time. Another, to be openly friendly in the formality of a tax based institution or within a business.)
;) all that to say it is a play within a play and it shows how some attempt to climb the ladder in a class structure and how those, who choose not to make the jump or, who were passed over by those that could elevate, would bad mouth those involved on both class levels and consider any effort to advance into the next class level as colluding with the lofty.
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Finally I'm back in Bethesda, with good internet access, and finally over the jet lag, but I'm still not caught up; every time I almost make it, we go on to a new section.
But I can backtrack, and put in some little bits that struck me as particularly amusing or relevant.
At first I wondered if any of the characters except Mr. Harding actually had any faith; they are so focussed on power and politics and nothing else. When we finally see specific religious belief, it's in Mr. Slope, and it's rather funny:
"And here the author must beg it to be remembered that Mr. Slope was not in all things a bad man. He believed in the religion which he taught, harsh, unpalatable, uncharitable as that religion was. He believed those he wished to get under his hoof, the Grantlys and Gwynnes of the church, to be the enemies of that religion. He believed himself to be a pillar of strength, destined to do great things, and with that subtle, selfish, ambiguous sophistry to which the minds of all men are so subject, he had taught himself to think that in doing much for the promotion of his own interests, he was doing much also for the promotion of religion."
Later. when we get to Mr. Arabin, the paragon, he takes his faith very seriously, and wrestles mightily with the details of his belief.
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Barb, we were writing at the same time. Even in British science fiction, in made up societies of the future, you see this class awareness more than in American sci-fi.
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Whoops Pat here I was responding to your first post and now you can explain how class structure is a given for the Brits - Do not read science fiction so that is a factoid.
Yes, Pat the story is showing the Clergy as typical professionals who vie for power and income in any organization - we are seldom faced with this fighting over loaves and fishes as Jonathan called it but once we get beyond, this is a story of an organization, here to fore, heavily blanketed, so that we forget the subtleties of behavior used to advance are practiced among men regardless, clergy or climbing the corporate ladder.
Sorta hits us between the eye doesn't it - and maybe that is why we see so easily the humor. Our preconceived concept of the clergy is blown up by the story. Love it - not only the story but how shock is creating the atmosphere for humor among readers - and here we are 150 years after the story was published still shocked and still seeing the humor and still able to see some of these goings on among some of the clergy today - funny.
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There are all sorts of little funny bits tucked away. When describing Miss Thorne, generous and amiable: "Her virtues were too numerous to describe, and not sufficiently interesting to deserve description."
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Ha - just thought - thanks Pat your earlier post helped me see another way of describing Slope - He was attempting to advance to the status of the lofty both in his job and his attraction to women. One goal equates to the other in his lofty ambitions so how he fairs in one will most likely forcaste how he fairs in the other.
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Welcome back PatH.!! Can’t wait to see more posts from you as you catch up.
Barb, Interesting point about Mr. Slope. I am forecasting cloudy, high winds, and possibly severe weather ahead by my estimation. All the elements, for the perfect storm! And now that I think about it, we are preparing for severe weather this Sunday as a cold front pushes it’s way in. Oh how I could analogize the coming chapters to our coming weather, but I will spare you all, and stop here. But I will say, batten down the hatches Mr. Slope, and the Ohio Valley.
Hmmm.... a story within a story. By golly, I think you’ve got it. Our author didn’t want to leave anyone out, so he has the lowly squabble with each other, about who gets to sit amongst the royal. And yes, our clergymen of all ranks are squabbling and jockeying for positions of power and wealth.
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Does anyone know if a movie was made of this story and name? I am having a hard time keeping track of who is who -- my old age??
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Found British TV versions on You Tube!!
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Kidsal it was a PBS series - is that the one you found - there are 7 installments to the series. Glad to see your post - hope you enjoy the movie and the read...
here is the first in the series which starts with the first book in Trollop's series which is The Warden. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDawi-HzNF8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDawi-HzNF8)
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Kidsal, The Youtube video will help with putting faces to the characters, but it will not give you true appreciation for Trollope’s humor, or cover all of the story. After watching it, and reading the book, I realized the movie is so shortened and watered down. Good luck!
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Kidsal, I'm always having to think hard about who's who too. It doesn't help when Trollope says things like "the archdeacon and his sister-in-law". (What? Who? Oh, yes, Dr. Grantly and Mrs. Bold) It's like Russian novels where everybody has a first name, last name, patronymic, and nickname.
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Bellamarie
What is the purpose of Chapter 39?
I haven't read it yet, but the writer of the afterward in my book says Trollope is trying to soften the fact that he's poking so much fun at the clergy by also poking fun at other groups. He finds the whole episode tedious, a flaw in the book.
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Searching around I came across this site which pretty much says what I had figured out myself, about chapter 39:
http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-barchester-towers/chapanal039.html#gsc.tab=0
Chapter 39 Summary
The social climbing Lookalofts have stirred up a lot of anger among the tenant farmers because they have joined the upper class party. Though the Lookalofts are ignored by the upper classes, they will most likely use their inclusion there as proof that they are better than the other tenant farmers. Many of the tenants are jealous of the Lookalofts while others claim that they would not bother going to so much trouble to mix with the upper classes.
Chapter 39 Analysis
Again this chapter has little to do with the overarching themes and plotlines of the story and instead concentrates on characters outside of the main story. Their impressions of the upper classes are not completely positive or completely negative and it is stressed that they have their own social problems and issues of which the upper class is not aware.
Interesting PatH., I think I agree with your writer who finds the whole episode tedious, a flaw in the book. There were a few chapters in this book I could give the same consideration to as well.
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I'm almost through. What a story! Aren't these Barchester clergymen a sorry lot! Barchester. 'This vile town,' in the opinion of one of the Stanhopes. For this they came back from Italy? Is it any wonder that the women feel they are given reason to 'advise' their husbands. Mrs Proudie is a shining example. I'm to the point where even Dr Grantly, the Archdeacon, is set straight by his wife.
'Batten down the hatches.' 'And yes, our clergymen of all ranks are squabbling and jockeying for positions of power and wealth.' Bellamarie, I like your analogy.What a storm.
The satire is intense. But so is the humor. Also wonderfully light. Eleanor shows her stuff with that painful slap she gives Mr Slope, but is left devastated by the whole experience. She finds consolation in her baby.
'This kind of consolation from the world's deceit is very common. Mothers obtain it from their children, and men from their dogs. Some men even do so from their walking sticks, which is just as rational.'
And the author makes it so easy to remember who's who. How can you forget the doctor waiting on the dying dean, with a name like Dr Fillgrave? I'll put off seeing the film. I hope I'm not disappointed. Reading the book is cracking me up. Bertie is going back to Italy, to his studio, wondering if he has enough marble there to carve himself a tombstone!
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Love the posts - no time till tomorrow but this story really has the one-upmanship we play to get ahead down to a T - I'm thinking of the whole game teens play to be included in various groups - marketing teams can learn their trade by reading Trollop ;)...
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Eleanor Bold is personally attractive as someone to marry--beautiful, good-natured, intelligent, but the attraction for Bertie and Slope is that she has 1000 pounds a year. It's interesting to see how British law played out at that time for a woman with money.
Married women could not own property. In fact, when a woman married, she ceased to have a separate legal identity. She was a part of her husband, and anything she had owned became his. If she managed to earn anything after marriage, such as by writing, it was his. She couldn't even write a will without his permission.
The possibility for abuse is obvious. Marry her for her money and spend it all, or keep her under submission by not allowing her any spending money, etc. There were ways to protect a woman. You didn't leave her money, you left her a "life interest". She couldn't touch the capital, but it produced income for her until she died, at which point it went to whoever was specified, usually her heirs. Marriage settlements could require that she be given spending money, or keep some property for her own use. This problem is a factor in Wilkie Collins' mysteries of that time, "The Moonstone" and "The Woman in White". In one, a suitor backs off when he learns that he can only use his prospective bride's income, and not get a big lumpof money which he urgently needs for a debt. In the other, a lazy guardian is unwilling to bother to protect his charge, so the woman is totally stripped of her money by the fortune hunter who marries her.
This problem was finally addressed in 1882 by the Married Women's Property Act:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act_1882 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act_1882)
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Yes, our Eleanor may seem the sweet, soft spoken, Christian woman, the feminine copy of her father Rev. Harding, but don't let that fool you. Mr. Slope was determined to ignore her protests, and continue with the proposal, and she indeed give him a slap in the face! A wallop indeed. He needed to stay away from the party for a bit so the redness could subside.
Interesting points you all are making about the women Tollope has created in Barchester. Even the crippled Signora Neroni is strong minded, and has no handicap when it comes to getting men to do what she wants, by using her beauty. Mrs. Quiverful was not going to stand back and watch her husband be rolled over, and lose the placement of warden, after promised it. Mrs. Proudie is a force to be reckoned with, when the Bishop tried to stand his ground, she used the bedroom to make him come around to her will. Even shy Charlotte was attempting to yank poor Bertie around, forcing him to propose to Eleanor. The men hold all the titles, yet the women seem to hold the power behind the man.
PatH., what an interesting bit of information about the possibility of abuse, due to the lack of identity, and ownership a woman had before 1882, when they passed the Married Women's Property Act. From all the novels I have read before this, which I will admit are not many, it seemed women, even with strong willed personalities like Jane Austen's Emma, did not mind the men having the power and money, since they were happy with doing idle handwork, visiting neighbors, throwing parties or traveling. They like Mrs. Proudie, knew there was a weakness in their husband or father, that could convince him to come around to their thinking. But, the passing of the Married Women's Act, fairly gave them their identity as an individual person, as well as ownership to property.
Jonathan, the names as you point out are to help you remember who is who. I found them quite hilarious!
Chapter 40 is where all the action really takes place, you get the sense all things are going to fall into place, and you feel the ending of the book is nearing.
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A couple of things I noticed while reading - way back in the letters that Slope wrote to the newspapers he mentioned their Mercuries - we learned while reading Bleak House that torch bearing runners were discharged to run ahead of horse drawn carriages at night to guide the way and to alert the drivers to any deep holes and ruts in the road and they were also used to run messages from location to location - and so Slope speaks of the Newspaper's Mercuries.
OH yes, how we have experienced this trick - p298 " Wise people, when they are wrong, always put themselves right by finding fault with the people against whom they have sinned." Never saw that bit in writing but I know it well...
And then this bit - many see this as our economic and political predicament today left to us by the Deep State of oil and bank barons - "the cigar has been smoked out, and we are the ashes."
Evidently the reference to Mrs. Jones and Miss Smith is as we today would say, 'every Tom Dick and Harry.'
But the quote that really got to me and explained the mindset of those who I have in my mind questioned their behavior and attitude - "...one of those beyond the reach of Christian charity, and was therefore able to enjoy the luxury of hating her..." Wow, that remark said tons to me of how, what we think would be Christian thoughts and kindness are withheld and at times at the end of some horrid behavior... they are not considered worthy and this is the way around it... Wow...
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love this illustration of the three suitors and Eleanore at the Thorne's 'Breakfast' -
(http://www.foliosociety.com/images/books/illustrations/lrg/BT2_14132007901.jpg)
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Thought this was helpful
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/89/61/3c/89613cc120a9f6fd96e3b795c372abef.png)
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(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4334173400_6985b20110_b.jpg)
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(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2797/4333428579_4c3050edc4_b.jpg)
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Jonathan, are these the books you have collected of Trollope?
While I can say I have enjoyed Barchester Towers, I can't say I am ready too soon, to read another of his books.
Barb, Thanks for the clarification of the ranks of the two churches. The pyramid really makes it simple.
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Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers
November 5 - November 11
Discussing, Chapter 40 - to - Chapter 53
Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.
Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent.
"'Wilt thou have this woman as thy wedded wife,' and 'wilt thou have this man to thy wedded husband, to live together according to God's ordinance?'
We have no doubt that they will keep their promises, -- the more especially as the Signora Neroni had left Barchester before the ceremony was performed."
| (https://78.media.tumblr.com/ac1536171003f4b036f2bc228d211fbc/tumblr_oyxg0owy0K1rt6ghko1_500.jpg) |
Please post your impressions, questions, observations and research ---
The schedule for our discussion
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39, The Lookalofts and the Greenacres.
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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I was glancing closer to the books by Trollope above and it amazes me how many of them are 500+ pages. He sure had lots of time for writing, and a whole lot of creative imagination!
So this week we wrap up Barchester Towers, engagement bans are posted, positions are assigned, and trunks are packed for travels to Italy. The question on my mind is, where does the new positions leave the Angelican church of England? Does it progress into the next century, or does it go along as usual? Barb made an interesting point earlier, about this being a story within a story, so we shall see how the stories end, in these next chapters. After watching Downton Abbey on PBS Masterpiece, I have to say, I think Barchester Towers videos did not come close to capturing my interest, like Downton Abby did. Oh how I miss the Crawley family......
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The Crawley family it is not is it Bellamarie I have Julian Fellowes's Belgravia but never read it - I think with that comparison I will read it next to see what the difference is between the two writers. Something tells me there will be more action with fewer words describing the action and less irony exposing the underbelly of an institution in Belgravia
How I think Trollope wins hands down is the references he makes to the writings of other authors - the only author that I can remember who could match Trollop one for one was Byatt in Possession
I thought prehaps Joanna Trollope was related but no, just the name but no relationship - her one book Parson Harding's Daughter I also thought was coincidental but the plot is very different taking place in India.
Well onward - unlike you and Jonathan I have not read through to the end.
How are you doing Kidsal - were you able to see all 7 installments of The Barchester Chronicles - the basis of the story is well acted capturing the personalities but so much of how they muddle through is missing especially Arabin's inner dialogues.
Thanks Pat for the background on women's legal rights - the law seems like another subject yet, it really did have a way of not only affecting women's rights but how they conducted themselves. Woman had to learn young how to stay on the good side of the men, placated when possible as do the Bishop's daughters. And to have any voice, there had to be subterfuge even among strong women like Mrs. Quiverful. Interesting, in spite of being second place citizens, bottom line with all the talk between the men about Slope it is Mrs. Proudie who controls the downfall of Slope.
A P.S. off the subject - it is so overcaste here today there is no way the hour's difference is showing itself - it is the slant of the sun that makes the difference aannnddd my tummy - oh oh - I guess it will take a couple of days - thank goodness I do not work a 9: to 5: with a set lunch time.
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Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers
November 5 - November 11
Discussing, Chapter 40 - to - Chapter 53
Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.
Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent.
"'Wilt thou have this woman as thy wedded wife,' and 'wilt thou have this man to thy wedded husband, to live together according to God's ordinance?'
We have no doubt that they will keep their promises, -- the more especially as the Signora Neroni had left Barchester before the ceremony was performed."
| (https://78.media.tumblr.com/ac1536171003f4b036f2bc228d211fbc/tumblr_oyxg0owy0K1rt6ghko1_500.jpg) |
Please post your impressions, questions, observations and research ---
The schedule for our discussion
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39, The Lookalofts and the Greenacres.
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
There he is at the end, with his triumphant hymn of thanks giving. His paean. 'He had girded himself with his sward, and gone forth to the war.' Archdeacon Grantly. We met him first, on his knees, after he had angered God with his self-seeking preoccupation.
But didn't they all fight their own war. Who could have thought that a community of clergymen and their wives, daughters and sweethearts could be so lively. And religion kept out of it, so as not to anger anyone. Comforting to read that the fishes and loaves will now feed 14 hungry Quiverfuls. Thanks to the press? It was the press that kept Mr Harding from accepting the Dean's office, just as it had hounded him into resigning as Warden. In a later volume, I've read, Bishop Proudie suffers a nervous breakdown. Small wonder. But they're all such vivid characters. I liked all the literary allusions, as much as I liked them in Byatt's Possession.
And Kidsal is reading Grant. He also fought a war. Did the archdeacon put you onto it? I have Grant's Personal Memoirs. [/iBeen meaning to read it for years. But first, another one I've been meaning to read. Lincoln and The Power of the Press.
Downton Abbey is pretty tame stuff, isn't it?
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Sorry about that Jonathan - now it is your turn to have the heading as company to your post - got caught up in the shooting at Southerland Springs and stopped before I got the heading up - back later...!
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Oh Jonathan, A. Byatt's Possession, that book stayed with me for months after finishing it. I remember reading somewhere, that the people became possessed, by the very things they were seeking to possess. Darn if I can find it.
I love that you mention the Quiverful's family of fourteen children, get the loaves and fish. Who could be more deserving.
Yes, Tollope was able to write a story about the church, but not about religion. That takes talent! And, I will go one step further, and say how he was able to show you can be a Christian, and yet lack in character, and indeed, harbor one, or all of the Seven Deadly Sins:
1. Pride
2. Greed
3. Lust
4. Envy
5. Gluttony
6. Wrath
7. Sloth
Shows human flaws, and reason to go to church for redemption.
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Monday, the last week of discussion, and the last chapters of the book. Is it weird that I am going to miss these quirky characters, and all of you who have stuck with the discussion? But like all books, they must come to an end.....
Even though, the book began with Eleanor, a widow, Mr. Slope and Bertie seeing her as a great catch because of her income, and Mr. Arabin coming to Barchester falling in love with her, I do not see this as a love story. It has been more about the interactions of the people of Barchester, and the politics in the choosing of placement in positions in the church, along with how the press can have influence. Sounds like a typical day in the good ole USofA today.
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Heartbreaking news from Sutherland Springs. What a lovely little church. What a senseless, cowardly act. What a sorry day for Texas and all the world. What is the world coming to?
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Yes, Bellamarie have to agree - even the love story seems to be a political maneuvering over Eleanore's money and even Arabin acknowledges he will benefit from her substantial income.
What I also saw was this was Trollop writing a story that bottom line shows his support for maintaining class differences. There was Slope whose real crime was to bring new ideas and had the effrontery to take on the mantel of a class he did not belong - all the actions and ways that were attributed to his character I remember as being the attributions to Blacks before the 1960s - the picture at the time was the black man, usually a big black man pouncing on a white girl, being uppity by showing their education or having anything to say politically much less dressing well or living in a home typical of white middle class. Slope was given the attributes of every reason he should be banned from attaining a place among those in a higher class - thinking of it not as a character in the story but writing the character - he was written to epitomize someone climbing into another class just as the wife and daughters of the farmer who showed up in the 'wrong' dining room at the garden party.
Bertie, although a foolish clown was acceptable because he was included in the 'right' class. He lived on credit as someone in the upper class with all the trappings and not really having a job. Knowing Trollop had to leave the 'public' school system when the family had financial difficulties he probably saw boys like Bertie at Winchester and a piece of his way of accepting his downgraded station was to make others look like they were winging it to be included hobnobbing among their own in the class system.
I wonder how close to his own father is Reverend Harding who is rather a meek man without the income but with the education and breeding to be included - Trollop's father went to the very best and oldest traditional public schools Britain had to offer and he expected all his boys to also attend these schools but his financial reversal called short Anthony Trollop's continuing and he had to transfer to the local day school. And so maybe he had felt the sting of class differences and so rather then actually promoting it he was using his experience as a given in his story.
I remember reading Thackeray and shocked to my toes at how disparaging right there in print he was to the Irish - I knew that Britain considered the Irish as clowns which the Irish adopted at the time as a way to avoid harsh treatment but, to read it in literature shocked me and so I realize not living during the time in history that stories are written, it is so easy to confuse our moral certitude of today with the values and accepted morality of the times. For me an eyeopener, as in all history the story line of a novel is tied to the culture and morality of the times.
Funny how I am not as shocked when I see blatant discrimination against women and the characterizing of cartoonish traits in women as I am when reading about abusive race relations - maybe because we are still dealing with the accepted and therefore, barely recognized abuses towards women - well this is not a philosophy discussion but it sure opened a can of worms in my head.
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Yes, Jonathan and what really got under my skin was the many, who I have admired and who think it was all a hoax - mostly because folks do not act as they expected with no realization this is a small town in another part of the country from where they live - folks do not go hysterical - they quietly do what must be done and they also do not think showing folks the wounded or dead is respectful - they will not allow their people to become bits of entertainment for the nation.
Those talking as if this is a hoax question why, being a gun state, no one used a gun to take him down without any concept of the gun culture that has always excluded guns in church. And then not finding some of the people whose names are mentioned online they think they are made up without realizing there are still many many folks who avoid not only the internet but any intrusion into their personal life and are not online, whitepage or otherwise.
And certainly a small town does not use or need sirens to let you know to get out of the way for any emergency vehicle - they know to pull over as soon as they see in their mirror an emergency vehicle if there is even another vehicle on the road. They also did not have a news team close by to be taking video - as soon as there was a realization something was wrong folks would quickly go to take care of the carnage not stop and take video.
This is when it comes home that not only do we have to stretch to learn about how people live in various parts of our own nation but between nations and how much we really do not know how to completely put ourselves in the various historical times we read - how people look at and carry out their simple day by day existence.
I dislike this new way of life of removing from your life anyone with whom you do not agree but to be this sinister, that everything is a plot has gone too far. I cannot help wonder how much of the news feed both national and news groups that put web sites and have facebook sites really know what they are talking about - they no more have characterized the area that I know, much less now the media is describing folks who just did what was natural as if they are heroes and then making the shooter into a monster. Again, making folks into a cartoon (unrealistically simplified and exaggeration) of who they are. Not sure today if I am more upset at what happened or how the town and those involved are being portrayed.
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Barb, yes the abuse is a whole new can of worms opened, and not the place or time with this book. But I will say, I often have asked myself, if women of those eras, or even today, who were/are comfortable and acceptable to their positions, how then do we judge if it is abuse, when they themselves do not see it as so? Some women with stronger personalities would see situations as such, where milder more less expecting women would be appalled someone suggest their choice of living would be seen as abuse. I consider myself a very strong individual, open minded, well educated, and well informed on abuse, especially where women are concerned, yet, I myself, see some women a disgrace in their thoughts and actions taking to the streets yelling, "We are nasty women!!" Like you said, "it is so easy to confuse our moral certitude of today with the values and accepted morality of the times."
Jonathan, Yes, these are very sad times. Vegas and now Texas shootings, killing yet more innocent people and injuring others. Is this to be our norm? I pray not. I read he had a dishonorable discharge from the Air Force, for domestic violence against his wife and child, and was denied a permit to own a gun. I know we'll hear more politicians ramp up gun control, but my take on this is.... evil will always find a way, no matter how many laws we pass. Criminals do not abide by laws. My heart breaks for all those injured, and the families of those whose lives were taken.
Barb, we were posting at the same time. Don't even get me started where the media is so irresponsible in their reporting today. I am so sorry this has taken place in your state, and that this small town is being caricatured by the press. It seems it's all about he "news" and nothing about the actual people anymore. :'( :'(
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Can you believe - I never knew such a word even existed - Hebdomadal
There are a few others but late this afternoon - I've a training event I must attend - till later...
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I finished the "Barchester Towers" we've been reading and began watching the You Tube episodes. I was totally confused by the first episode (the 1982 series) because it focused on the 12 men living in the hospital while Mr. Harding was the warden - and Eleanor and John Bold weren't married..
After I saw that the series is based on both books, I checked out the e-book of "The Warden". I've read the first couple of chapters and the YouTube series is now making sense. "The Warden" is interesting background for what happens in "Barchester Towers".
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Wow! What a book! Just the mention of 'can of worms', and 'seven deadly sins' reflects the complex socitey that Trollope writes about. And I would like to add 'the trials of the liberated woman.' It seems to me that in this book it's the men who take the abuse. It's the men who are seduced. Madeline is some spider. There's something about her that's irresistably fascinating. Eleanor is lovable if only for her fondness for her little boy.
Trollope's book is not like all those other books, Bellamarie. His stories never end. There's always, 'to be continued'. And no doubt he could add more to their beginnings.
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I was totally confused by the first episode (the 1982 series) because it focused on the 12 men living in the hospital while Mr. Harding was the warden - and Eleanor and John Bold weren't married..
Oh, yes, the 12 old men. We shouldn't forget them. Weren't they what the Hiram's Hospital bequest was supposed to be about? Nobody seems to be thinking much about that as they spar over the next appointment. It's looked at as a way of giving a living to a clergyman in the diocese, and as a way of gaining power in the organization.
Even there they aren't doing a good job. If you want to provide for the clergy, the post should definitely go to Mr. Quiverful, who is trying to feed a family of 16 on three quarters of the income that lets the solo Mr. Harding live a quiet but modest life. If you happen to remember the old men, you should figure out who would do the best job of seeing to all the little things that can make the difference in a person's life. The only thing mentioned is that the choice must be willing to preach a sermon to them on Sundays. Heaven forfend that they shouldn't be admonished once a week.
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Reviewing the notes, this is a list of books and authors referred to by Trollop in Barchester Towers - I attempted to group together some of the titles by the same author but it got away from me -
Several specific sections of the Bible are referenced that are King's James unless otherwise noted. Many of these books were used over and over as the source of phrases or references in Barchester Towers.
Using Jonathan's reference royal road to learning these books would be the royal road to what many reading Trollop in the mid-nineteenth century would have on their finger tips that allowed them to enjoy the wit of Trollop.
1. Westward Ho - Charles Kingsley
2. Lycidas - John Milton
3. Helen of Troy
4. A demonstration of the truth of the Christian religion, from the Latin of Socinius.
5. Argus - Greek myth
6. The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy - Laurence Sterne
7. Judgement of Paris
8. Homer’s - Iliad
9. Thousand and One Nights
10. The Book of Psalms - Bible
11. New Testament - King James Bible
12. The Eve of St. Agnes - Keats
13. The Caesars - Thomas De Quincey
14. Coningsby - Benjamin Disraeli
15. Tancred - Benjamin Disraeli
16. Roderick, The Last of the Goths - Robert Southey
17. The Last of the Mohicans - James Fenimore Cooper
18. Thoughts on the Ministerial Commission - John Henry Newman
19. The Frogs and the Mice or the Batrachomyomachia
20. Luke, Matthew, Exodus - Bible
21. The Mysteries of Udolpho - Ann Radcliffe
22. Comedy of Errors - Shakespeare
23. The Rivals - Richard Brinsley Sheridan
24. Hamlet - Shakespeare
25. Tartuffe - Moliere
26. Little Dorrit - Dickens
27. The Character of Credit: Personal Debt in English Culture - Margot Finn
28. On the Plurality of Worlds - William Whewell
29. Revelations - Roman Catholic Bible
30. The Philosophy of Zeno
31. Tom Jones - Henry Fielding
32. The Anatomy of Melancholy - Robert Burton
33. Essays - Michel de Montaigne
34. Ivanhoe - Walter Scott
35. Sophocles
36. Gulliver’s Travels - Jonathan Swift
37. Robinson Crusoe - Daniel Defoe
38. Rape of the Lock - Alexander Pope
39. The Faerie Queen - Edmund Spenser
40. The Lay of the Last Minstrel - Sir Walter Scott
41. Guy Mannering - Sir Walter Scott
42. Oliver Twist - Dickens
43. St. Paul’s Letter to Philemon
44. Macbeth - Shakespeare
45. King John - Shakespeare
46. A Midsummer Night’s Dream - Shakespeare
47. King Lear - Shakespeare
48. Hippolytus - Euripides
49. Phedre - Racine
50. The Diary of C. Jeames de la Pluche, Esq - Wm Thackeray
51. Aeneid - Virgil
52. Nemesis - Greek Myth
53. Charybdis - Greek Myth
54. Pegasus - Greek Myth
55. Odyssey - Homer
56. Don Juan - Byron
57. Troilus and Cressida - Shakespeare
58. Troilus and Criseyde - Chaucer
59. St Simeon Stylites - Tennyson
60. Philip Van Artevelde - Henry Taylor
61. The Fair Penitent - Nicholas Rowe
62. The Victorian Church - Owen Chadwick
63. The Legend of St. Denis
64. The Cotter’s Saturday Night - Robert Burns
65. Alexander’s Feast - John Dryden
66. Henry IV - Shakespeare
67. Romeo and Juliet - Shakespeare
68. The Rape of Lucrece - Shakespeare
69. Othello - Shakespeare
70. The Taming of the Shrew – Shakespeare
71. As You Like It - Shakespeare
72. A Conjugal Lesson, Medea - Robert Brough
73. Legend of Good Women - Chaucer
74. The Clerk’s Tale - Chaucer
75. The Sorrows of Young Werther - Goethe
76. Maud - Tennyson
77. Pickwick Papers - Dickens
78. King Alisaunder - Anon. Middle English romance (https://www.middleenglishromance.org.uk/mer/31)
79. Dialogue of Proverbs - Thomas Heywood
80. Paradise Lost - Milton
81. Pilgrim’s Progress - John Bunyan
82. First Book of Kings - Bible
83. Paul and the Corinthians - Bible
84. Irish Melodies - Thomas Moore
85. She Stoops to Conquer - Oliver Goldsmith
86. Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard - Thomas Gray
87. Sir Charles Grandison - Samuel Richardson
88. The Gondoliers - W. S. Gilbert (Gilbert and Sullivan)
89. The Busybody - Susanna Centlivre
90. Alexandre Dumas - Eugene Sue
91. Thirty-Nine Articles - John Sumner
92. Doctor Faustus - Christopher Marlowe
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Wow, Barb, that's quite a list. Thanks for keeping track. Not counting the many references to Greek myths and the Bible, I'm surprised to see I've read 30 of them. But I sure didn't catch all the references.
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In Chapter 45 we really do see the inner workings of a family, scrambling to survive their own demise. I don't think anyone in the Stanhope family is evil, they just all seem to be a bit selfish and self centered. Charlotte, thought in persuading Bertie to propose to Eleanor it would solve his financial problems, yet she never considered Eleanor's feelings. The father is abhorred at Bertie's carefree, careless lifestyle, but then is confronted with this statement from Charlotte:
And then she added, getting up and whispering into his ear, "Is he only to blame? Think of that. We have made our own bed, and, such as it is, we must lie on it. It is no use for us to quarrel among ourselves,"
Bertie is being reamed out by his father, yet sits drawing caricatures of the women of Barchester, as if he has no care in the world, while Charlotte is trying desperately to defend him. The one who surprised me the most in this family is Signora Madeline Neroni, telling Eleanor how much Mr. Arabin loves her.
"Well, then, I will ask you one more singular still," said Madeline Neroni, raising herself on her elbow and turning her own face full upon her companion's. "Do you love him, love him with all your heart and soul, with all the love your bosom can feel? For I can tell you that he loves you, adores you, worships you, thinks of you and nothing else, is now thinking of you as he attempts to write his sermon for next Sunday's preaching. What would I not give to be loved in such a way by such a man, that is, if I were an object fit for any man to love!"
"What I tell you is God's own truth; and it is for you to use it as may be best for you own happiness. But you must not betray me. He knows nothing of this. He knows nothing of my knowing his inmost heart. He is simple as a child in these matters. He told me his secret in a thousand ways because he could not dissemble, but he does not dream that he has told it. You know it now, and I advise you to use it."
"And remember," continued the signora, "he is not like other men. You must not expect him to come to you with vows and oaths and pretty presents, to kneel at your feet, and kiss your shoe-strings. If you want that, there are plenty to do it, but he won't be one of them." "With him, yea will stand for yea, and nay for nay. Though his heart should break for it, the woman who shall reject him once will have rejected him once and for all. Remember that. And now, Mrs. Bold, I will not keep you, for you are fluttered. I partly guess what use you will make of what I have said to you. If ever you are a happy wife in that man's house, we shall be far away, but I shall expect you to write me one line to say that you have forgiven the sins of the family."
Yes, as complex the Stanhope family seems, it appears they all do sincerely care about each other. I so loved this chapter.
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Pat it was not so much keeping track as it was reviewing the notes that were the annotations to the book, page by page - extracting from those notes the books and authors that were included in the paragraphs that explained the verbiage in Trollop's Barchester Towers.
Yes Bellamarie, explaining the inner dynamics of the Stanhopes was well summed up in chapter 45 wasn't it - actually we heard more about the father in chapter 45 than we had in the entire story - he would be referenced in their conversations or present during a 'do' but nothing about a 'reader to character' bit where we the reader saw first hand his actions.
These last chapters were really page turners - If interrupted I could not wait to get back to the story to see what was happening next where as, the earlier part of the book was nice and the language used was riveting however, I was not glued to the story to find out what next.
As to Bertie drawing, I thought how sad and how we still do that to others - rather than recognizing their true talent and giving them confidence to pursue their talent we are more concerned they live up to the social expectations or the parents expectations of how to live.
There is the dichotomy though within Bertie - most artists unless of independent means are not only depending on family members for sustenance living but are willing to live in garrets which is what Bertie is taking on by choosing to go back to Italy. However, he likes his comforts so that he is not focused with all his energy into his art. What he needs is a manager or an agent who will get his work into the public eye.
Amazing that Madeline does not take on that task - but then we would not have a story plus she seems to be so busy keeping herself relevant. Folks who have been shamed in their intimate relations do seem to focus on rebuilding and never accepting that they have done enough to rebuild. With Madeline's handicap she is left with a daily reminder of her shame.
Not sure what chapter but I was fascinated with the idea that folks would rewrite a story into a comedy or take a comedy and write it into a drama as a fun activity - made sense remembering what life was like before TV much less the internet. But it also explained how folks remembered not only the plot of a story but the characters by name and how they could have at their finger tips quotes from the story - I remember as a young housewife looking forward to the monthly magazines that I subscribed to that always included chapters of an ongoing story plus a couple of short stories. While my babies napped I would gobble up those stories and some I read more than once - With one vehicle, going to the library was not easy plus there were no free libraries - it was usually ten cents a book for a week and reading a book within the week while caring for babies was seldom possible so, for a few years those magazines were my reading material and while washing and sweeping etc. I carried in my head my picture of those stories.
Interesting, maybe there is something to be said for reading material that is a bit more difficult to obtain - we make more out of what we do read so that within a few years more than the plot is half remembered. Today we seldom quote characters from books when we write or chat with each other. Thinking on it, I must say, there are many whose intimacy with the Bible is so great they can quote chapter and verse and quote they do from the Bible - equally or more folks today do not value this practice - talk about bullying - they sure like to puff up their superiority and put down those quoting from the Bible.
This idea though of rewriting a story as a comedy has me by the tail - that means you must have a knowledge of how to write comedy - that is quite an exercise hmmm
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What did y'all think of Slope sliding into a cushy situation in London with everything he could not attain in Barchester - reminded me how even today the big, usually liberal city is considered by those who live in the hinterland to be the den of iniquity. As soon as attend anything just outside Austin the disparagement is not hidden - ah so... If Slope is on the tongues of any in Barchester I can hear it now - Slope and London deserve each other... ;D
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Why do I feel Bertie went off to Italy and would never really take his his artistry serious? He just seems to want to be as they say, "Fancy foot, and carefree." He really had no choice but to leave, since the father is throwing him out of his house. Lucky for him Charlotte was able to convince the father to fund him monthly. Maybe Neroni did not take on promoting Bertie because she could very well see he would never live up to his talent. I've seen many a talented person not succeed, but for they would not put the needed work into it. I noticed Trollope did not feel the need to let us know if Bertie became successful in Italy. Hate to be a Debbie downer, but my guess, is he didn't.
Interesting point about reading.... one thing is for certain, I am not willing to quote from the Bible, unless I can attach the scripture book and verse which means I remember "who" wrote it. Not so with many of my books I have read.
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But did Barchester deserve Slope, from London, and the Stanhopes from Italy? Wasn't it Mr. Slope's doing that the Stanhopes were recalled?
Such dazzling posts. And they only confirm what a unique book we've been discussing. Do those old men at Hiram's need a sermon? Wasn't Mr. Harding wiser in playing his violincello for them? And that great quote from the Madeline/Eleanor tete-a-tete: 'He knows nothing of my knowing his inmost heart.' She's a fascinating character, so are they all. But this bit of information was special. I've started reading the biography of Trollope's mother, also a writer of note, and here's something about her style:
'Her book would be pervaded by a woman's spirit, for she believed that the study of manners, "and the minutiae of which it is composed, suits better the minute and lynx-like optics of the female...." ' Something inherited from his mother, obviously.
What a stunning list of references, Barb. I was well along in scanning it and thought...you've missed 'she stoops to conquer', (Goldsmith), worked casually into his story by the author...but there it is, near the bottom. We certainly have travelled a highway of literary magnificence.
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Just read your post, Bellamarie. Bertie, for me, is the bee who goes from flower to flower, sampling everything, trying to be everything, described so well in an early chapter.
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Jonathan, how telling of Trollope's mother, and how he was able to use her to help him with such great writing for women voices. He did a fine job in showing the strengths of each woman, yet her gentle and kind side as well. I think I loved the little sit down between Madeline and Eleanor more than ever! Madeline has great experience in what a man thinks, she plays with every man's mind that comes in her presence. They are like putty in her hands, but, our dear innocent Mr. Arabin, reveals more by his actions than he knows, and only someone as cunning and perceptive as Madeline would see all that she sees.
What a perfect line to create! Bravo to our author!
"He told me his secret in a thousand ways because he could not dissemble, but he does not dream that he has told it."
Then these words just hit home for me......Madeline is revealing more of herself, but she does not dream that she has told it.
For I can tell you that he loves you, adores you, worships you, thinks of you and nothing else, is now thinking of you as he attempts to write his sermon for next Sunday's preaching. What would I not give to be loved in such a way by such a man, that is, if I were an object fit for any man to love!"
Signora Neroni, longs to be loved as Mr. Arabin loves Eleanor, instead of being jealous, she graciously cautions Eleanor not to play games and have greater expectations from the innocent Mr. Arabin, or she may lose him.
Again I have to say......Bravo!, to our author, for excellent creation of one woman's dreams, to another woman's reality.
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So here we are at the end of our novel, and the end of our discussion, and what better way to conclude than with our brilliant author's own words:
The end of a novel, like the end of a children's dinner party, must be made up of sweetmeats and sugar-plums.
And what better way to end a novel then to have a wedding!
"Wilt thous have this woman to thy wedded wife," and "wilt thou have this man to thy wedded husband, to live together according to God's ordinance?" Mr. Arabin and Eleanor each answered, "I will."
The Stanhope's have all moved back to Como. Mr. Slope lives on Baker Street and has a church in the vicinity of Red Road a famed eloquent preacher and pious clergyman in that part of the metropolis. The Archdeacon and Mrs. Grantly are happier than ever to have Mr. Arabin the new Dean, as their brother in law, passing out lavish gifts to everyone. Mr. Harding is still precentor of Barchestor and still pastor of the little church of St. Cuthbert's. As for the twelve old men, they are now five with loyalty to Mr. Harding, but willing to accept the new warden. The Bishop and Mrs. Proudie are happy with giving a dinner party or two yearly. The Quiverful's are settled into their new home, and all is well with the world in Barchester.
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Trollope sure has a way with words, I simply loved these paragraphs:
Chapter XLIX
He, however, soon relieved her from her embarrassment. He came up to her, and taking both her hands in his, he said, “So, Eleanor, you and I are to be man and wife. Is it so.?”
She looked up into his face, and her lips formed themselves into a single syllable. She uttered no sound, but he could read the affirmative plainly in her face.
“It is a great trust,” said he, “a very great trust.”
“It is — it is,” said Eleanor, not exactly taking what he had said in the sense that he had meant. “It is a very, very great trust, and I will do my utmost to deserve it.”
“And I also will do my utmost to deserve it,” said Mr. Arabin very solemnly. And then, winding his arm round her waist, he stood there gazing at the fire, and she, with her head leaning on his shoulder, stood by him, well satisfied with her position. They neither of them spoke, or found any want of speaking. All that was needful for them to say had been said. The yea, yea, had been spoken by Eleanor in her own way — and that way had been perfectly satisfactory to Mr. Arabin.
And now it remained to them each to enjoy the assurance of the other’s love. And how great that luxury is! How far it surpasses any other pleasure which God has allowed to his creatures! And to a woman’s heart how doubly delightful!
When the ivy has found its tower, when the delicate creeper has found its strong wall, we know how the parasite plants grow and prosper. They were not created to stretch forth their branches alone and endure without protection the summer’s sun and the winter’s storm. Alone they but spread themselves on the ground and cower unseen in the dingy shade. But when they have found their firm supporters, how wonderful is their beauty; how all-pervading and victorious! What is the turret without its ivy, or the high garden wall without the jasmine which gives it its beauty and fragrance? The hedge without the honeysuckle is but a hedge.
There is a feeling still half-existing, but now half-conquered by the force of human nature, that a woman should be ashamed of her love till the husband’s right to her compels her to acknowledge it. We would fain preach a different doctrine. A woman should glory in her love, but on that account let her take the more care that it be such as to justify her glory.
Eleanor did glory in hers, and she felt, and had cause to feel, that it deserved to be held as glorious. She could have stood there for hours with his arm round her, had fate and Mr. Thorne permitted it. Each moment she crept nearer to his bosom and felt more and more certain that there was her home. What now to her was the archdeacon’s arrogance, her sister’s coldness, or her dear father’s weakness? What need she care for the duplicity of such friends as Charlotte Stanhope? She had found the strong shield that should guard her from all wrongs, the trusty pilot that should henceforward guide her through the shoals and rocks. She would give up the heavy burden of her independence and once more assume the position of a woman and the duties of a trusting and loving wife.
And he, too, stood there fully satisfied with his place. They were both looking intently on the fire, as though they could read there their future fate, till at last Eleanor turned her face towards his. “How sad you are,” she said, smiling; and indeed his face was, if not sad, at least serious. “How sad you are, love!”
“Sad,” said he, looking down at her; “no, certainly not sad.” Her sweet, loving eyes were turned towards him, and she smiled softly as he answered her. The temptation was too strong even for the demure propriety of Mr. Arabin, and bending over her, he pressed his lips to hers.
I sense our author is a bit of a romantic at heart.
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Love the way you summed it up Bellamarie - perfect - just perfect - what really caught my attention was, with all the words Trollop uses to tell his story, two of his main characters at the apex of their storyline have only a few words - lots of understanding silence between them with the actual proposing almost a marginal addition to what was understood by each from other sources. No snap, crackle and pop between these two. Perfect imagery having them gaze into the warming and comforting fire.
Reading this reminded me of the themes in Steinbeck's Winter of Our Discontent Was this Barchester's Summer of their Discontent with Slope setting fire to the community ship.
In one breath I'm so enamored with Trollop's writing that I'd like to read another this winter but in the other breath I am also fascinated with the list of books Trollop referenced - some of the writers and books I have never heard of and others have been on my reading list for years. Where I have read much of Shakespeare, I never read him to actually remember and use some of the dialogue and yet, most consider him the greatest word master. The Busybody sounds like a fun read and what is this The Diary of C. Jeames de la Pluche, Esq by Thackeray all about. Then Jonathan brings to our attention She Stoops to Conquer by Oliver Goldsmith which must be another addition to my 'to-be-read' pile.
Which by the way, She Stoops to Conquer and the Rivals and Tartuffe are all available as movies on DVD - the wonderful Hal Holbrook does Tartuffe.
Well we did it! - Some of us floated in and out during our conversation and the faithful few saw it through - Thanks to everyone, we did have a fine discussion - After this read it will be difficult to see political maneuvering without seeing the humor - When it comes down to it no matter what the give and take and ego's bruised or otherwise, life goes on and it appears mankind has a similar drive to satisfy their needs, wants, and concept of propriety along with many who cannot leave well enough alone and push to change others to their liking regardless, the profession, the time in history, their power, their wealth or their lack of wealth.
Officially we are open through tomorrow, Saturday, November 11 - We will leave it open for comments through Monday and then our, really wonderful discussion, will be archived. :-*
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Thanks to all who participated. You've been wonderful company. Must it end? The last few posts are overwhelming. Such glorious 'sweetmeats and sugar-plums' represented in your quotes, Bellamarie.
'She had found the strong shield that should guard her from all wrongs, the trusty pilot that should henceforward guide her through the shoals and rocks. She would give up the heavy burden of her independence and once more assume the position of a woman and the duties of a trusting and loving wife.'
It can't get any more romantic than that. Romance, the most extravagent, most luxurious of all human emotions. And happening to the two most level-headed characters in the book. My head is spinning. So familiar. But all, so long ago. A world left behind, that would leave a younger generation laughing.
Barb, your list of literary works mentioned in the book, leaves me smacking my reading lips. From Westward Ho to Dr Faustus. I'm going to keep it handy for inspiration. And reference, for something to discuss. How about Paul's Letters to the Corinthians? Burton's Melancholy is a vast odyssey through human experience. And not at all melancholy.
Your post #194 quotes Victoria Glendinning as saying: 'Trollope was capable of anything with a pen in his hand.' I would like to quote her, from her biography of Trollope:
'I have never been so happy researching and writing any book so much as this one....If even part of my pleasure is conveyed to the reader, and if she or he is influenced thereby to read or reread Trollope's work, I shall be well satisfied.'
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Oh Jonathan, you are so right in saying, "A world left behind, that would leave a younger generation laughing."
Sadly, I fear this generation has no clue to the beautiful feeling of simple romance. They rush into relationships before even knowing a person's name, and the next morning wake up not remembering their face. I pity them, because, I, like you, know and have experienced the love Mr. Arabin and Eleanor have, and I can't ever imagine never having it.
Barb, I too loved the fire scene, with so little words spoken. The mouth need not speak, when the heart has so much more to say.
I will have to keep both of your lists of books to add to my TBR pile. After reading these last chapters, I suspect I may have the urge to give Trollope another try. Victoria Glendinning can rest assured, she completed her mission with this reader, and she should be well satisfied.
Thank you Barb for leading this discussion, as always you were full of insight, and brought so much information to us. We are ending just in time for you to have more time to work on your Christmas gifts for your grandchildren, which reminds me, I need to get busy on making stencil tee shirts, my new found craft, for my grands for Christmas gifts.
Jonathan, I am so happy you were here with us reading this story. Your enthusiasm kept me plugging through ,when I could easily have given up. I am so glad I did not, because now I have one more favorite fictitious couple, to add to my list of favorites.
To all of you who dropped in, it was nice to hear from you. It turned out to be a wonderful book, and I hope you all finish it, if you have not already done so. I can say, the video helped me put a face to the characters, but it does not do justice for the actual book.
Since many of our characters left for Italy, I will end with......... Ciao for now!
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Well, I've caught up just in time to say goodbye.
Bellamarie: I sense our author is a bit of a romantic at heart.
Yes, he gives us a fine romantic finish, plus a lot of wonderful romantic slapstick in the gardens of Ullathorne as a preliminary. Slope presumes too much and gets his ears boxed, Bertie makes a non-proposal, and everyone leaves the party frustrated.
The couple will be happy; in addition to their love, they have the same ideals and standards, and the same understated way of expressing their emotions, plus enough money to make life secure.
But look at Trollope's super-Victorian attitude toward women. They are the clinging vine, unable to flourish alone, needing the strength of a man to twine around. (To be fair, he feels the man is incomplete without the woman too, but he is always the strength.) Life isn't always that neat, and a woman who can't call on considerable strength of her own is in trouble when disasters strike.
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Mr. Harding is still the one with the strongest moral compass. He insists on turning down the deanship merely because he feels himself unfit.
"Mr. Harding seemed to have a foolish idea, not only that there were new duties to do, but that no one should accept the place who was not himself prepared to do them" (Grantly's thoughts). Goodness, how foolish!
And although it's painful for him to do, he accompanies Mr. Quiverful on his first day as Warden, praises him to the old men, and does what he can to get the new Warden off to a good start.
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PatH.
But look at Trollope's super-Victorian attitude toward women. They are the clinging vine, unable to flourish alone, needing the strength of a man to twine around.
Hmmmm..... I'm not so sure I was the women in this story as you describe. If anything I saw them stronger than the man, and willing to stand and fight for not only what they wanted, but what they believed in. The mere fact our sweet little Eleanor boxed Bertie's ears showed she did not need any man to cling to let alone propose to her. She was very content with her baby and father. Mrs. Proudie, well, let's just say she will be clinging to no man, if anything she has the poor Bishop groveling in the bedroom. Charlotte as meek as she seemed, she too, not only stood up to her father, but took charge of Bertie's situation. Signora Neroni could never be considered weak or clingy, if anything she turned men into mush. She could have had many a man at her beck and call, but was comfortable remaining single even with her handicap. The dear old Mrs. Quiverful, full of piss and vinegar bursting into the Bishop's house demanding Mrs. Proudie to stand by her promise to give her husband the warden position. If anything I saw strong spirited women, much like Jane Austen's women. Ahead of their times.... I sense Trollope's mother was a strong image in his life and he was able to give each woman in this story strength, without jeopardizing their gentleness as well.
I think the vine paragraph was to show how when two are meant to be, they, together will only flourish and strengthen each other, and beauty shall become of it, this was Trollope, the romantic painter, creating a masterpiece with the strokes of his pen, rather paintbrush and palette:
When the ivy has found its tower, when the delicate creeper has found its strong wall, we know how the parasite plants grow and prosper. They were not created to stretch forth their branches alone and endure without protection the summer’s sun and the winter’s storm. Alone they but spread themselves on the ground and cower unseen in the dingy shade. But when they have found their firm supporters, how wonderful is their beauty; how all-pervading and victorious! What is the turret without its ivy, or the high garden wall without the jasmine which gives it its beauty and fragrance? The hedge without the honeysuckle is but a hedge.
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For that matter, Eleanor has been running her own house capably for the two years since her husband died, including having a baby, and maybe this is lonely, but she's coping perfectly well.
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I wonder how Bertie coped? After his non-proposal, it's stated that Eleanor didn't see him again for many years, so he didn't completely come to grief.
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Bertie, I'm sure, is off to explore and conquer new worlds and always needing support.
Pat and Bellamarie, your exchange of views is priceless. No doubt the roles played by the men and women in the book were ardently discussed by Trollope's readers. And not least a line such as:
'She would give up the heavy burden of her independence and once more assume the position of a woman and the duties of a trusting and loving wife.' Quoted earlier by Bellamarie.
Women give up their independance? Women call the shots in this tale, along with the editor of The Jupiter. He hounded Mr Harding out of his position as Warden and would do it again if Mr Harding were made Dean. Something Mr Harding dreaded. What Mr H needed was a wife.
Hasn't the traditional marriage vow gone out the window long ago?
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I too suspect Bertie is off jutting around Italy, without a care in the world. He did not seem the least bit interested in a relationship with any woman, and only proposed to Eleanor because Charlotte insisted, to get him out of debt.
Some may see a woman losing her independence once she marries, but I see women gaining even more power, with her arm reaching into whatever position her husband holds. Show me one woman who does not meddle in her husband's affairs. What is that saying.....
Behind every successful man, you will find a strong woman.
Yes, Jonathan, I think there is no "traditional" wedding vow to be found. As a matter of fact, couples aren't even interested in getting married as much today, since living together is socially acceptable.
I am so glad I grew up in the baby boomer era.
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Interesting dialogue - the issue of women - I see strength but controlled within the framework of propriety -
For readers then as now, it was a surprise to see the kindness of Madeline, who was depicted as a rather wanton woman, who, lord forbid, attracted men. No hanky panky that of course was assured in the minds of most readers by her permanent injury; but, just the fact she flirted and she could read people, which was OK as long as it was not the men, the Signora fits the Classic femme fatale, considered dangerous. To this day some women see making themselves attractive with hair products and makeup dangerously close to appearing as if they would be considered projecting a femme fatale image.
Then we have the widow of independent means, who, although she lives alone, makes her decisions with her father's approval. There also appears to be an expectation that since she does not have a big brother and her father is considered too humble, other men should become her advisor and treat her as such so that like a teenager she rebels - which is the basis of the misunderstanding as like the rebelling teen she asserts her views that supports the story line of war between the clergy. Then to be proper she cannot declare her love or lack of love - to declare her love she must be spoken to first and she is defined then as a vine - regardless clinging or flowering or thorny, still a vine attached to a man. Another traditional caricature for a woman where the doors of commerce and business are closed to her if she is to be a proper woman and loving, caring mother among the upper middle class.
And then how often we saw strong women like Mrs. Proudie characterized as the joke, with her appearance being overbearing and anything but attractive - even her name in Trollop's story is used to make a comment about someone stepping out of bounds - Yes, she is strong and many women were strong but even the TV series Slander about folks in the White House today, have the male President advising the male Attorney General that he should not despair because in fact he is actually attracted to strong women who can upset the apple cart and they do... over the retiring and acceptable wife who wears a hairband.
All these caricature roles for women are so ingrained in stories and are the stuff of comedy that we have taken them for granted - I always think if we reverse the role and see how it works for a man than we have a better idea of what is going on.
However, like y'all I do see the strength and power of the women in this story within their prescribed classic roles. Through out history we have women who stepped out of their socially accepted roles and made a difference as well as, many a women who held a family together during all sorts of catastrophes or abasement.
I'm remembering having married and my early motherhood roles in the 50s and how shocked I was to be treated and expected to act in ways that were far from my expectations based on my education - no one prepared me for being a second class citizen where I could not buy anything over $100 - remember the shock and embarrassment shopping for the holidays and the grocery bill was over 2 times the usual - before they would take my check they had to call my husband. There was no credit allowed for a woman and no legal document required my signature - in Texas since so many men sold their RE to pay off a gambling debt, women were brought into a private room to under oath explain they knew about and were OK with the sale of their home and that only came to be the way of things after WWII.
Most parties and after dinner conversation quickly became the guys in the living room and the gals in the kitchen since we were not supposed to understand politics or business or finance or sports - until just the last 10 or 15 years, over and over we helped widows sell their homes and had to accompany them to get the legal documents and talk to their bank since they had no idea how their finances worked.
To me it was a saving grace that during the nineteenth century at least girls were not educated side by side with the boys - I never understood how learning math and being good at it and learning History and Latin and Economics and English lit the same as the boys we were supposed to all of a sudden know how to maintain a house and successfully develop, without an annual interview, with no boss unless we wanted to humiliate ourselves and consider our husband our boss, that some unfortunately, like it or not, their husbands did take on that role - however, on our own with no guidance and with the exact same education as the men, know how to keep, a house, the health and welfare of the family, have babies etc etc. while throwing out the window all that we learned in school. Every professional that I can remember simply patted women on the head.
Then, to add injury to insult, in the 70s when women started to carve a place for themselves in the workplace they successfully dumb down the curriculum and throw out most of classical learning - I guess to meet the conceived idea that women were not up to the kind of education that was normal before the 60s and 70s. All we have to do is look at an old McGuffey or Hillard Reader and see what was normal in 3rd grade is not even taught till you are in 7th or 8th grade today and what was normal in the 6th grade is maybe, maybe taught in high school.
Yes, I am still growling at this phenomenon of classifying women as magical learners of Home Ec. and not just the welfare of their children but to be as if trained psychologists for children. Some families are lucky that they escape the bullying etc. that can destroy a child or some of the other family catastrophes that are so disruptive that children fitting into society is no longer easy.
To be as Eleanore was not universal in that, many a young widow turned to her father for guidance and to obtain credit to buy a vehicle much less a house into the 1970s when so much changed for women. And then, to this day many women cannot change a tire or fix a sticky window or change out a dryer without hiring a handyman or mechanic to do it for them. They were not included in industrial ed. classes.
As to Charlotte, what could be more traditional than the idea of women as the peacemakers - so much so, that folks are fooled into thinking if they have women in D.C. there will be no wars - the realization, that women are as influenced to vote for war or support political war between nations as are the men, is still not understood by those who are caught in the traditional views of women.
The 70s brought a new culture for women that yes, took away the romanticism of earlier times when a gallant gentleman took care of the women and women played or were dumb to what really powers society - if she showed her strength or power she became a well worn caricature, fit for the silent movies or, if she accomplished something significant she was no longer among the women washing up after dinner - instead, her name was in the newspaper or on a building - she traded in casual friendship among women to be included among the very few who rubbed shoulders with the men.
Yes, I do see Trollop elevating the power of each of these women but within the boundary of preconceived characterizations that probably followed the norm but also, increased the acceptance of the traditional views about women.
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I was a 70's woman, and loved it! We still could enjoy the romantics, and believe me that was the era of tons of romantic comedies, but we could also assert out independence. I was not into the Gloria Steinem feminists movement, I like being a woman, and do not need to measure my worth up next to a man.
Great discussion!
My hubby has all my Christmas boxes in the kitchen, so it's deck the halls with boughs of holly for me today!
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Goodness Pat you really had us do a last round up that struck at the core of our thinking - we all have our opinion on the status of women don't we - Bellamaire, you and Jonathan's thoughts are right there on the progression or lack of, for women - how, by gaining independence we have lost much that was valued and now the difficulty of keeping things like romance alive when tradition is no longer the glue.
This is one of those books that slowly brings us face to face with how we view change on many fronts - I'm wondering how a few months from now we will look at some issue of change. This story helps us realize throughout history one of the big tug's of war socially and therefore politically is change. The other biggie the story brings to our attention is noting that politics plays in every institution.
Jane will be archiving the discussion sometime this afternoon or this evening - just in time for any last minute thoughts - Looks like we read and discussed more of a winner than we realized as what appeared to be a benign gossip column in book form when we started turned out to be a far more in-depth reach into change.
I love it Bellamarie - I too have been looking forward to the Christmas season - no big discussion this year if November is too early to start - the music is on - have fun decking your halls
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Judging from my own life and that of my children, there's still plenty of romance around, but a lot of stereotypes are gone, and you have to figure out your own assumptions. Anyway, I'm glad I don't have to fit in the mold of a nineteenth century woman; it would be a poor fit.
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To end with a really trivial point: throughout the book there are references to the bishop's apron, and it's sometimes used as a symbol for the office ("he expects to acquire a wife first, and the apron will come"). It turns out this isn't the sort of thing we think of, that you might use when cooking, it's a somber knee-length black tunic.
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haha thanks Pat for the explanation of the Bishop's apron - maybe those of us who still wear an apron in the kitchen are symbolically letting folks know the Kitchen is our domain and we wear the apron to prove it... ;) :D ;D
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;D ;D ;D
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Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers
November 5 - November 11
Discussing, Chapter 40 - to - Chapter 53
Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.
Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent.
"'Wilt thou have this woman as thy wedded wife,' and 'wilt thou have this man to thy wedded husband, to live together according to God's ordinance?'
We have no doubt that they will keep their promises, -- the more especially as the Signora Neroni had left Barchester before the ceremony was performed."
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Please post your impressions, questions, observations and research ---
The schedule for our discussion
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? - to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39, The Lookalofts and the Greenacres.
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
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Discussion Leader: Barb (augere@ix.netcom.com)
Well! I'll be....! Thanks for the information, Pat. I thought the Bishop got the apron from Mrs Proudie, in exchange for his pants. Wasn't she a strong character? Long after she was dead, she was still haunting the author. There have always been strong women. It's just that we don't have their histories. Women's liberation is the greatest thing that ever happened. And it's great to see them doing so well in all their endeavours. It is a bit discomforting to pick up a book with the title: The End of Man, or listen to the talk by Maureen Dowd: Are Men Obselete? Aw shucks, men, let's take a break and try matriarchy.
A great discussion, Barb. What's up next? Have a great holiday season everybody.
Have we seen the end of romance? Of course not. Once we tire of our obsession with gadgetry we'll look for something warm to hug.
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Heading gotcha again Jonathan - ah so 8)
Does seem odd doesn't it, that some see the man/women thing as a seesaw -
I sure hope you are right about Romance - I still love a good story about knights when forbidden love was the theme and Romance included a wonderful quest. My favorite is still Tristram and Iseult as well as, Sir Lancelot with Guenevere - and my favorite movie that was not nearly as effective a novel is Ryan's Daughter.
I guess, as the telephone did not interfere with hugs, maybe wifi will become a way of life that does not interfere with romance - seems there is much to work out, not just technology but the concept of unrequited love or quiet unclaimed passion does not seem to fit the millennials. We shall see...
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The Bishop's apron, now PatH., I missed that for some reason. Cute to know it's not a kitchen apron, because I would have thought Mrs. Proudie has hen pecked the poor man beyond shame. Romance will never die, but I do feel it fading away.....the millennials with their texting, tweeting, snap chatting and instagramming, just don't have time to personally romance or be romanced. The beauty of personal letter writing, strolls in the garden, sitting under a beautiful moonlight, or even dancing in each other's arms to a beautiful ballad is long gone. It's instant gratification couples are looking for. Here today, gone tomorrow, with just one click of the send button.
I know we won't be discussing any more books this year, so what do we do until the New Year? Any book titles on the horizon for January 2018?
Ya'll have a wonderful holiday season.