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Everyone is welcome to join us - July 15! See you then?
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 15th century?
Never mind that the invitation will bring her into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996, not to mention the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics.
Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. You should know that this is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain, in Venice, Vienna and then in Bosnia in 1940.
Oh, and did we mention that this is a love story?
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Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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This is one of the top two books SeniorLearners voted for last month.
Couldn't wait until July - I just had to start reading as soon as I picked it up.
I'm sure you will love Hanna Heath and her amazing discoveries. I'm having a hard time distinguishing between fact and fiction - maybe that's why it's such a page turner.
The stroy line is great - but there is so much to learn about each of the historical periods in which the book turns up.
This is one of those books that really lends itself to group discussion. Are you in? The more the merrier.
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Please count me in...A book written by an Aussie Sheila about a beautiful book and its history - and as icing on the cake our distinguished discussion leaders - what more could we want. Please count me in.
And JoanP - I wonder whether you have considered asking Geraldine Brooks to join the party in some way. She comes across as being very approachable.
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Good Morning!
My introduction to this author was Brooks' historical novel March(about the American Civil War), which our local group discussed two years ago.
Right then and there I decided to read everything Brooks has written, beginning with Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women, 1996, and would write.
Yes, count me in.
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Traudee, not only have you read Geraldine Brooks' work - (her "March" won a Pulitzer Prize) - but now I hear that you have actually lived in Venice for a time after the war. Aren't we fortunate that you will be contributing to the chapters on Venice where the book turned up in the 17th century.
Gum, welcome to the conservatory - and what a good suggestion. It is my understanding that the Aussie author now lives in the US - on Martha's Vineyard - a lovely spot indeed. I like your idea.
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Yes, JoanP that's my understanding too - that Geraldine Brooks lives at Martha's Vineyard...
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I too will join you although I read the book. Some years back I saw that one could order a copy of the Sarajevo Haggadah.
At the time I thought I would make a collection of Haggadut. Well Life happened and I didn't order many more haggadut.
However I do have the copy of the Sarajevo Haggadah and if I can persuade my husband to turn it into something that can be viewed on line I will do so unless there already is one on line. Has anyone checked?
Another problem is the fact that I will have to take care of my two year old Grandson for either a week or two weeks during this period. If he comes up here I can continue to converse with you but if I have to go to his home in S.CA it will be a lot more difficult.
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Have it on my Amazon list.
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I can't put this book down. Already in the first few sections, I will never look at a book the same way again. I can't wait to discuss it -- and with such a great group of people.
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This is the best picture I got with a quick search:
http://www.haggadah.ba/ (http://www.haggadah.ba/)
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Jude, Bo knows all about two year old grandsons - we're getting ready for a trip to Disney at the end of this month - with seven grandchildren - all under that age of 7. Two of them are two year olds, two fours, 2 sixes and 1 seven. We'll understand if you have your hands full. (
Really do hope he comes to you though - for selfish reasons.
a collection of Haggadut - Jude
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I am not even sure what this means.
I hope your husband can scan the document and you can get it to us.
JoanK, we'll have to put that link in the header when we begin the discussion. It's a start in understanding what this mysterious book is all about.
Let's NOT get into it here, okay?. As soon as we open the Pre-discussion of the book, we can talk about it. I'd hate for those who come in later closer to the discussion to miss that information.
Kidsal - you're way ahead of the game. Glad to have you with us!
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I started reading this a few weeks ago and then started reading the Wallender books, so am ready to go back to "People of the Book" probably tonight. It is fascinating. So count me in.
Evelyn
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Great, Evelyn! You're in!
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I've had my book. It has been waiting for me to read it for about six months. I am delighted that it will be discussed here. Count me in.
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Frybabe, Kidsal, Evelyn, it is so good hear you plan to join us. July will be here before we know it. Welcome!
By the way - here's the author's upcoming schedule. (http://www.geraldinebrooks.com/events.html)Perhaps she will not be in Germany for the full month of July? I can catch her at the Folger in September... Well, we'll see what she says. Doesn't hurt to ask.
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JoanK Thanks for the result of your 'quick search' for the Sarajevo Haggadah - stunning site - I'm sure JoanP will want to put it in the header when we get to the discussion....
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I'll be joining you, too. I've read three of her books - March, Year of Wonder, and People of the Book - and have enjoyed them all. I'll be reading People of the Book again with you. The first time I read it too quickly because it was for my f2f discussion group. I'm going to really enjoy it this time. Especially because I'll be discussing it with the people of SeniorLearn!
Being Jewish, I've participated in many Passover seders and read many haggadahs (haggadot). But the discovery of the Sarajevo Haggadah just thrilled me.
Nancy
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It thrilled me too. I'm thinking back to the variety of Haggadot we have used over the years in our family Seders. My husband was a non-observant Jew, but somehow we managed to have or attend a Passover seder ever year (reform style). Usually there were a wide variety of Haggadot around the table-- everyone would have their own, and they were all different translations, which made it challanging. I imagine that whatever in family used the Sarajevo Haggadah, the father held it and others were supposed to know the passages to follow along. If indeed it was ever used in seders.
Our favorite family story involves this. There is a point in the seder where the youngest child is asked to read the four questions. As a joke, I guess, my daughter asked my grandson, then two going on three to read them. Of course, no one imagined that he could. We were wrong!!! He read all four. His father helped him with the long words, but he read words like "vegetable". This was the first that any of us knew he could read. What a surprise!!
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Here are two additional links, one of which includes a range of
Haggadot (including the Sarajevo Haggadah) and the other link (Wikipedia) which provides more historical information.
http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo_Haggadah
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JoanK, it is clear that you will be bringing such first hand information to the discussion. Wonderful!
Mahlia, I've seen the Wikpedia ste - but would be interested in reading what is behind the first link.. which doesn't seem to work for me. Could you tinker with it? Thanks!
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Let's try this link to reach the Haggadot site at Yale Univ. I tried it before I posted and it took me right to the correct site. Scroll down the page a bit and you'll find the Sarajevo Haggadah.
www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html
As I recall the numerous Passover seders which I've attended over the years, one which stands out clearly in my mind included Russian and Iranian Jews (and their families), new to the USA, who had been students in a class I taught in Maryland on American citizenship. Our host was an American colleague of mine from university and it was an enormously heartening experience for all of us as we witnessed the emotions of the international guests face-to-face.
Another time, I was seated across from a Chinese Jewish couple. The man was descended from an Iraqi Jewish trading family (based originally in Baghdad with branch offices in Shanghai in more contemporary times), whose Iraqi ancestors owned numerous caravans throughout centuries which traded between the Middle East and China. Historically, the Iraqi males often intermarried with Chinese females and eventually re-established residency in China. The fellow's wife was from a similar multicultural family Jewish family based in China. That night the guests and I exchanged marvelous stories until 4 a.m. the following morning! A delightful memory.
Mahlia
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A lovely site, Mahlia! Thank you for putting the Yale U link up again! On closer examination, I see that the only thing different between the two - the "l"was missing at the end of the link! Picky, picky! We'll definitely put that link into the discussion heading. Again, thank you?
I think I'm in the right place to ask this "seder" question. Does the seder meal take place only at Passover - does it refer to the Passover meal, or are there other occasions during the year?
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It is only for Passover. Christ's last supper was a seder, or Passover meal. Passover falls on a different day each year, sometimes falling before, sometimes after Easter, but always around the same time.
However, it occurs twice a year, not once, on consecutive days. families have a choice of which of the two days to celebrate, and the ceremony is exactly the same. I was told that the reason for this is to allow for time differences in different parts of the world. Some families repeat the seder on both days.
It is very much part of the tradition to invite to the seder not only friends and relatives, but anyone that you know who has nowhere to go onthat day, including those who are not Jewish. In fact there is a part of the ceremony where someone goes to the door and invites any passer-by to come in and share the meal. This is rarely taken litrally now in the US, but I have known people who were invited to participate in this way.
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The "open door" is very much a part of the Persian custom also, whereby the front door, gate or garden entrance to the house proper is left open and those who pass by are invited to enter, join the family and celebrate. It is a marvelous learning experience for those from other faith backgrounds, especially the Orthodox Christians whom I've known, who along with their families participate with their Jewish friends and in turn, invite them to the Christian Seders. Each celebration is a wonderful opportunity to remember the shared history, teach the younger generation, and encourage the continuation of the family and friends gathering at a very special time of the year.
Mahlia
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Since we had two different families, we spent one seder with my dad's family and the second seder with my mom's family. I liked my mom's family seder better because I was allowed to drink the four glasses of wine. I usually slept very well that night. Four Cups of Wine (http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/thefourcupsofwineforpassover.html)
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Was that after Three Cups of Tea? ;)
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Mahlia: that sounds wonderful. Too bad there isn't more of that in the world.
ABERLAINE: four cups!! That's what it's supposed to be, but we always chickened it down to four sips!
Thats what's so wonderful about these holidays that are celebrated within the family -- each family somehow makes it their own, at the same time they are sharing it.
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Geraldine Brooks has written this best selling New York Times bestseller - fiction, a mystery based on the ancient Haggadah which turns up in Sarajevo in 1996. Lucky Hannah Heath (that's a lot of h's!) is called to examine the manuscript to solve it's mysterious reappearance. She's only 30 - one has to wonder why she was the one called to the task.
There will be something here for everyone - please make a note to join us in July!
Thanks for the seder information, you all. I'm sure it will be helpful when we get into the discussion.
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Thank you for all the Seder information. I had no idea.
I just finished reading "People of the Book" and will return it to the library on Wednesday and take it out again before we start our discussion. I will enjoy re-reading it with all of you.
I will make no comment so as not to be a "spoiler", except to say it is a most enjoyable book. I had never heard of the Sarajevo Haggadah, so this book and all your comments and the links are very enlightening.
Evelyn
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JoanK, I drank those four (small) glasses of wine when I was young and stupid. In my later years, I started getting migraines from the Manishewitz wine, so I limited myself to a few sips.
Nancy
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I'd like to join the discussion. The book sounds interesting. Haven't read anything else by her.
Just figured out why she can afford to live on Martha's Vineyard. Both she and her husband, Tony Horwitz, are Pulitzer Prize winners. I have his book, BLUE LATITUDES; BOLDLY GOING WHERE CAPTAIN COOK HAS GONE BEFORE, on my TBR list.
Marj
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"I really dislike reading Hugo," said Les miserably. (The NY Times is having a Tom Swifties contest, and this is one that made me chuckle.)
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Marj, welcome! So glad to hear that you plan to join us! Note that we have decided to move the start date back a bit - to July 15.
Don't you wonder what it must be like to live in a house wilth two prolific writers? Not only are they both working out of the house, but they must be on fairly strenuous book tours!
Evelyn, I had never heard of the Sarajevo Haggadah either. I gather it is like the Book of Kells and wonder whether it is on display in a museum somewhere.
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I thought it was on display in the museum in Sarajevo. Didn't someone post info about it being brought out and put on display to disprove rumors that it was used to pay for the war? Or am I mistaken?
Evelyn
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Welcome, MARGIFAY. Blue Latitudes sounds interesting too (I love the title). Let us know how it is.
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This link to Wikipedia explains where the Sarajevo Haggadah is displayed and a few more details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo_Haggadah
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Wow! what a site this is. OK, you've got me hooked! I know nothing at all about any of this and will be asking a ton of questions. Thank the Lord we have residents of the Jewish persuasion that can help me learn.
It will give me a good "summer" read at my daughter's house as I enjoy her huge Pawley Island hammock and sway in the breeze with Hannah and the Haggadah. (All of this illiteration should be fun).
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MMM...that hammock sounds good! Is it a two-seater, Andy? Glad to have you - and your questions! Welcome!
Mahlia, I went back and read the Wikpedia link more carefully. I rememberd that a good number of copies had been made - but overlooked the fact that the actual copy was on display in Bosnia. In a way, that makes me sad...since that was not its point of origin. Kind of like the Elgin Mables in London , not in Greece - fish out of water...
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Joan- come on and crawl in. It holds me and 3 grandkids together. You'll fit. Of course after your trek to Disney you may prefer to wait until the "youngens" retire. Yeah let's do that and enjoy a glass of wine togher in the quiet of the evening.
I've started this book today. It reminds me of The Night Villa or else I am just stuck in that book so deep, I see trouble behind every paragraph.
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Oh gosh, Alf, I hope People of the Book isn't like Night Villa. I only finished NV because everyone here seemed to really like it. I got tired of all the references to Roman mythology. Maybe it was because the book didn't really get interesting for me until almost the end.
I am interested in comparative mytholgy as told by Joseph Campbell in his HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES, i.e., how basic themes are repeated in all mythology, including the Bible. And I loved all Mary Renault's books re stories based on Greek mythology. But I guess I'm the only one who was bored by Night Villa. I hope the Brooks book is better.
Marj
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Welcome, Marj! I share your love of mythology.
Several years ago in the Books, we tackled one of the best reference sources on the subject, Edith Hamilton's Mythology. It identifies the Greek gods, major and minor; their Roman counterparts; also the heroes of the Trojan war; the great families of mythology, the House of Atreus, the Royal House of Thebes, the House of Athens; genealogical tables; all the myths, and more. There's a brief chapter about the Norse gods, about Valhalla and the Valkyries.
In 2005 we discussed Mary Renault's novel The King Must Die, a great experience, much enjoyed.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 15th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain.
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Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940 (JoanP)
July 20-24 Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96 (Ann)
July 25-August 3 Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996 (Traude)
August 4-August 8 Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996 (JoanP)
August 9-August 13 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996 (JoanK)
August 14-18 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002 (JoanP)
August 19-August 23 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge)
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Prediscussion Considerations
1. Had you ever heard of the illuminated medieval Spanish manuscript, now known as the Sarajevo Haggadah before now?
2. What exactly is an illuminated manuscript? Do you think a centuries-old illuminated manuscript would be fragile?
3. Can you find the meaning or the derivation of the word, haggadah?
4. What can you find in Geraldine Brooks' background that might have led her to Sarajevo and this particular topic?
5. Do you remember the Sarajevo Olympics? Any of the athletes who participated? When did Sarajevo host the games?
6. What do you know of the Bosnian War and the situation in Sarajevo, Bosnia when the story opens in 1996?
Relevant Links:
Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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Marjifay-Well here I was reading and discussing relics and ruins one minute in the Night Villa in Rome, attempting to restore buried treasures (scrolls) from the Vesuvius eruption.
I actually learned alot about the importance of preserving and revitalizing found antiquities.
NOW
In the first chapter of People of the Book, once again I find myself in Europe, with another treasured handwritten manuscript (the Sarajevo Haggadah) to analyze, by a conservator. Why is she called a conservator and not a "Restorer?"
I had to put the book down and rethink what it was I was reading.
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HI all,
Are we all getting ready for this wonderful book??? I am not able to stop reading it. It just leads you on and on!
Alf,
I am saving your questions for later on in the discussion!
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oops Sorry,Annie, I just don't seem to like that word. I will wait with bated breath, blah,blah....
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I may join the book discussion too. I'll have to take a look at the book first!
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countrymm - Welcome! - I am certain that once you take a look at this book, you will not want to put it down! Don't let Andy scare you - there are no gods and godesses in this one. It is another mystery, however, but very different from what you are reading in Night Villla.
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Not to fret countrymm- the only goddes in this story will be our leader! 8)
The only likeness is the treasure of the pieces.
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Welcome, COUNTYEMM! Shouldn't be any Greek gods and goddesses in this one. I found it hard to put down: only did so so that I could come to the discussion fresh.
I was really into mythology when younger. But I must admit that even after reading Hamilton, Homer, and a number of the Greek plays, with my senior memory I still get the characters and their relationships all mixed up. I wish I couyld find my copy of Hamilton -- it's a great reference to have (if you don't lose it).
HA HA ALF! I hop[e that comment refers to all the DLs. ;)
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oops Joan AND CO-leaders. ;D
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Thanks for the recommendations for authors of mythology. I was introduced to mythology when I took Latin from our Ginny. I just love the stories and my reading has really expanded. Now I have more authors to explore.
Evelyn
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Oh my - I'm wishing we didn't put off the discussion of the book until mid-month. It is so difficult not to say anything about it until everyone has book in hand and is ready to go.
Every once in a while, I find myself staring at the bookcover - and wonder what the blue and black and sand-colored drawing is supposed to be. Am I the only one who doesn't get it? Is it a map of some sort?
We're off to Disney in the morning. On July 1, we'll begin the discussion - well, the Pre-discussion of the book - which is better than nothing, right?
Does everyone have a copy of the book? What do you see on the cover?
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Marjifay, I'm glad to see another Campbell fan here.
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people of the book
a free sample is ordered for my kindle. I like to check out the writing stye before spending the kindle price ten dollars on a book that is probably available at the library but probably not in large type. that's the beauty of the Kindle. I enlarge six times so as to read more comfortably even with good reading glasses.
I likehistorical love stories. will have a look.
claire 8)
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I believe the picture on the cover is a butterfly.
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well the sample arrived. I read it and went right on with the book itself unable to stop. It took a couple of minutes to show up on the kindle.
the technical part in the beginning took me back to a materials class, part of my major at ucla where we made our own gesso and ground pigments first in water and then in egg medium. It's a lovely smooth surface to paint that way, made me want to do it again although now you can get acrilic gesso.
I think only two of us did the whole assignment. I enjoyed it mightily. . . and look forward to more in the book. There is lots of information here already for me as a secular/reform Jew I know very little about the practice of a family sedar.
claire
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Winsom: I had the same reaction!
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Hi Joank
do you have a kindle now? I think we did talk about it a while ago as a convenience for folks who are only semi mobile. I'm spending too much money for sure,but what is it for???
seeya
claire
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Hi, Claire!
Not yet. I have a library a block from where I live, and someone kindly pushes my wheelchair there every few weeks. And I buy far too many books on Amazon. Even with the shipping, their used books are often reasonable. (I still spend too much money!! But as you say, what is it for?)
seeya back!
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Joan P and others
I know what the cover illustrtion is, having read the first chapeter of the book
it is a butterfly wing.
claire
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The illustration on the front cover of mine is of a woman: it shows the lower face, throat and down to the cleft of the breast - there is also a small butterfly about 1 inch in size, what looks to be a thread or hair and a pinky dot, some calligraphy and down through the centre of the cover a broken line like a crack from top to bottom. The back cover zooms in to the chest of the woman, the broken line, calligraphy and part of a butterfly's wing. - woman is coloured in rich ochres and background and clothing is black.
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We're baaack! Sort of. I need a bumper sticker for the car - "we survived a whole week in DisneyWorld with 7 grandchildren - the oldest seven - in 98 degree heat!" All I can say is - never attempt this yourselves - and if you must, make sure you have a cell phone on you - charged! (With the phone numbers in each kid's pocket.)
Kidsal - I'm looking closely at the book cover - trying to see the butterfly that you see. If I turn the book to the back cover, I see the continuation of the wing. Thanks for pointing this out. (you too, Claire!
Gum, I tried every which way to turn the cover art to see the woman you describe. No luck. Finally googled - and found this Harper Collins edition cover - (perhaps printed in Australia???) And now even I can see her! Who is she? Do you think she's Hannah Heath, the conservator? The Hannah in my head is not this glamorous - BUT if you only knew who has been cast as Hannah for the upcoming movie, you wouldn't be surprised. I really don't want to tell you yet - until you have formed your own mental image of Hannah.
(http://www.harpercollins.com/harperimages/isbn/medium/6/9780732280376.jpg)
Claire - I remember thinking of you, hoping you would join us - when reading the early section - Hannah peeling fat off the calf's intestine to make gold leaf, making a mess of her "old-lady hands." (She's only 30, isn't she?) Oh, dear, I'm getting into the story beyond the book cover and we haven't even started our pre-discussion yet!
Here's the plan - on Tuesday, the Book Bytes will be published, after which we will begin our Pre-discussion in preparation for the actual discussion of the book - which we will begin in earnest on July 15. I will try not to get into the story - until then, until everyone gathers here and has located a book.
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JoanP Congrats on surviving DisneyWorld. ;)
Evelyn
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JoanP: I have your medals ready.
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JoanP I see you're refreshed and reinvigorated from your trip. 8)
and yes, that's the cover illustration on my copy. I didn't know there was a film in the pipeline.
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JoanP ~ Well done on the Disney trip! One at a time, baby grandson, that is, wears me out! You are amazing! Those kids of yours with the grandchildren must be great, also!
I've ordered the book and am looking forward to the pre-discussion.
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I can't believe I didd it, read the whole thing . . . . maybe by july fifteen I will have forgotten most of it and it will all seem new again. in the meantime I'll concentrate on getting over this damn shingnles attack. this old ladie has blotches and blisters on her old lady hands.
seeya.
claire
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so who is it to play hannah, my first thought from the length of the neck etc. was too old now for the part. and I've forgotten her nae. the Captain of the ship in Aliens. . . someone will know.
claire :P
got it
sogourney weaver. . . not thirty any more.. .ann hathaway is too pretty but can do an;ything. so . . who is it?
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Claire, I'm serious, I really don't want to spoil it for the others by inserting the image of this actress into the minds of our readers until they have at least formed their own picture from Geraldine Brooks' description. I'll tell you this - it is neither Sigourney Weaver nor Anne Hathaway... You won't believe who it is, but try to wait until others have caught up to you! ;)
I can't believe you read the whole thing! Please come back and discuss it again with us on the 15th! I hope you forget what you read by then! Poor old lady hands - that's from scrubbing the inside of the cow's intestine with the pumice stone!
Mippy, welcome aboard! This is going to be quite an adventure! Happy to hear you have ordered your book.
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I found a Reader's Guide on Geraldine Brooks' website. Thought you might want to take a look at it.
http://www.geraldinebrooks.com/people_readers.html
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joan P you brought it up but didn't say we shouldnt 'try guess. who ever gets it right won't know until you decide to tell us. . .
so no guessing. I guess.. claire
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Claire, you're right of course! I did bring start the guessing game regarding the actress who will portray Hannah Heath when I saw the illustration on Gum's bookcover - Mea culpa! It was my fault. I just hope I can keep quiet about Hannah until everyone else has imagined Hannah. How old is Sigourney Weaver now, anyway?
Frybabe - thanks! We don't usually read the Readers' Guides until after everyone has read the book - lots of SPOILERS in there! We'll save it for later. Thanks, again.
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According to the internet movie database (http://www.imdb.com), Sigourney was born on 8 Oct 49. She has a degree from Stanford in English Lit.
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what is a pre-discussion? I do remember those olymbics in sarajevo. another life time for me. I've been trying not to talk or even think about this book until we were ready and have read a good science fiction book to change focus The writer is Lois McMasters and the book was Warriors Apprentis. I'm already into the sequal and must change gears again.
about the haggadah . . . . I'd never heard of it. so much for a reform jewish background. My daughter married into a conservative one and was amazed that I had never experienced a home sedar although she understood that she hadn't gotten to either growing up with me.
This book Illuminated a great deal for me and her. She will read it too, although I don't think she will join us. There is something about us old people that turns of our Young ones, this one in her fifties. sheesh. doe illuminated mean illustrated? in any special way. hand painted minatures I guess on parchment in egg tempra???
claire ::)
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Claire and those who have not yet started reading ~
A haggadah is a book of ritual readings used at the Passover Seder. Most American seders I've attended use simple, paperback copies, nothing at all like the historical one in our book.
For many years copies were available free from the manufactures of matzo and other Passover foods.
Here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haggadah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haggadah)
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You can still get free copies freom many grocery stores each spring. One grocery store near us had special Haggadahs for children, which my grandchildren loved.
CLAIRE: ny husbands family was reform, but still had seders at home, and used haggadahs. But each family is different.
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there was a community sedar at Hillel councel which I sent to a couple of times as a kid. My dad was involvred with the formation of the group. I was bored but appreciated the wine and the gifilite fish. the minced apple was supposed to represent bitter herbs. I never did know or care about what any of this represented and only went to a cople of them a large room full of people at long tables.
the one where the coeds walked in late was funny. the door opened to permit eligia? or someone important anyhow. I am so unjewish but not at heart after all. I can't imagine being anything else, so it adds up to secular and in the end atheism.
claire :-\
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Claire ~ you posted: minced apple was supposed to represent bitter herbs.
Sorry if this is too much detail, but it might be good to correct it now in pre-discussion.
I'd like to emphasize that none of this detail is needed to enjoy the book.
Bitter herbs, maror, are eaten in a separate step of the ritual, and horseradish was used in our family.
The apples are chopped with walnuts, then mixed with wine (with cinnamon optional) and
this mixture, charoset, represents the mortar used as the Jews labored in Egypt.
A link might explain it better, but do skip over all this if you are not interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder#Koreich_.28sandwich.29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder#Koreich_.28sandwich.29 )
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Did I read this earlier on when I started this story or did someone mention that Seder actually means "order" in Hebrew?
I love horseradish and will now forever remember that this food underscores the bitterness of the Jewish experience and the bitterness of slavery.
I also love chopped nuts and apples (called Haroset in Hebrew) that symbolizes the building mortar used by the Hebrew slaves in their forced labor. mm---mm wine mixed in with Mippy's should make it all the better .
Salt water symbolizing the tears due to the years in bondage is too sad for me to even contemplate today.
I have never been invited to a passover or sedar but I love tradition and would love to be invited. Are Christians welcome to come if invited by a family member?
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I'm reading the book and am well into it by now. I'm enjoying it so much, I
forget to pause and make notes. I expect I'll have a few things to contribute, tho'. Naturally, one of the first things I did was look up a number of words I
was only vaguely familiar with. Looks like it's going to be one of those lovely
read and learn experiences.
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ALF:" Are Christians welcome to come if invited by a family member? "
OF COURSE!. If you're ever in Southern California at Passover time, you have an open invitation.
I love the churosis, too! When my kids were kids, we would all chop it up together, pretend we were making morter like the Jewish slaves, and sing "Let my people go!" as loud as we could.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 15th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940 (JoanP)
July 20-24 Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96 (Ann)
July 25-August 3 Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996 (Traude)
August 4-August 8 Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996 (JoanP)
August 9-August 13 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996 (JoanK)
August 14-18 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002 (JoanP)
August 19-August 23 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge)
|
Prediscussion Considerations
1. Had you ever heard of the illuminated medieval Spanish manuscript, now known as the Sarajevo Haggadah before now?
2. What exactly is an illuminated manuscript? Do you think a centuries-old illuminated manuscript would be fragile?
3. Can you find the meaning or the derivation of the word, haggadah?
4. What can you find in Geraldine Brooks' background that might have led her to Sarajevo and this particular topic?
5. Do you remember the Sarajevo Olympics? Any of the athletes who participated? When did Sarajevo host the games?
6. What do you know of the Bosnian War and the situation in Sarajevo, Bosnia when the story opens in 1996?
Relevant Links:
Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
Andy: JoanK- be careful extending any ivitation to me! I might show up. Thank you , that was very sweet.
Babi- I, too, have looked up many words and have some to look up tonight as well. I am already into the 4th weekk of discussion. I will have to go back slowly when we open our discussion. I'm happy to see that there will be so many too help with our questions.
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Hello, everyone! Good to see the interest and anticipation.
Hello, Claire!!
I too have been reading ahead and making notes - now to keep them all in order ...
Traude
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notes? I never make notes. I might want to change my mind about something as I read on and then they wouldn't do me any good. . . just clutter up my already disorganized brain. claire
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We discussed illuminated books when we read Orham Panuk's My Name is Red.
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http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm
A description of the origins of the illuminated manuscript.
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The Haggadah (Hebrew: הגדה, "telling") is a Jewish religious text that sets out the order of the Passover Seder. Reading the Haggadah is a fulfillment of the scriptural commandment to each Jew to "tell your son" about the Jewish liberation from slavery in Egypt as described in the Book of Exodus in the Torah. ("And thou shalt tell thy son in that day, saying: It is because of that which the LORD did for me when I came forth out of Egypt. " Ex. 13:8)
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traude good to see you too. in fact huggles from claire.
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Some news - I think it was you, Gum, who suggested that we contact Geraldine Brooks. Knowing that she would be in Germany in July - I followed your suggestion and wrote anyway. I just received this answer
With her travels she can try to answer the questions if you send them
via email, but can't make any guarantees, but feel free to send them"
Let's keep a list of questions we would like to ask the author each week of the discussion. Since she is travelling, we'll select a few of the questions - don't want to overcome a travelling author who probably has limited email time. But it would be great to hear back from her, wouldn't it?
So, ask away and we'll keep a table of questions for the author in the header...
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Babi ~Welcome! You really must like the book, not stopping to make your famous notes! This is a first for you, isn't it?
Glad to have you join us. (even without your notes.)
What is a pre-discussion?"(Claire)
Well this is it - we don't talk about the book - as you note - but do share information - background or personal experience that will help us to understand the story better - things the author takes for granted that we know about.
Such as your question - does illuminated mean illustrated? in any special way. hand painted minatures I guess on parchment in egg tempra???
I know nothing about the Haggadah, except that I've read that it is an illuminated manuscript. I do know - have seen pages from the Book of Kells in Ireland - an illuminated (illustrated) manuscript dating back to the 9th century. It is my understanding that such manuscripts predated Guttenberg's printing press in the 15th century.
Mippy, JoanK - are the paperback copies of the haggadah used at seder meals illustrated? If so, are they drawings - or reproductions of ancient illuminations such as those we see in pictures of the pages of the Sarajevo Haggadah?
I'm going to try to get my sister to join us - she married a Jewish fella and usually attends seders with members of his family. I think she'd like the book, too. I've never been - never been up in NY where she lives at that time of year.
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Just lost a long post. GRRR. I'll try to duplicate it.
ALF: "be careful extending any ivitation to me! I might show up." I hope you do. And that extends to all of you.
Kidsal: what interesting background material. Really makes me think. About all the forgotten artists who made those manuscripts. And about the purpose of the Seder.
Someone asked if Seder means "order" in Hebrew, and I forgot ifanyone said yes, it does. In modern Hebrew, the equivelant of our "OK" is "beh seder" --in order".
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this is about the illuminated mauscripts it's materials and history
www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm
enjoy
claire
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I picked up a copy of this book today at our local book store for $3.00. So I will be reading it and will try to join the discussion.
Joan Grimes
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JoanP ~ Illustrated Hagaddot? Not at all. Words are what are important in Jewish prayers and rituals, in English and in Hebrew, and pictures are not expected. Perhaps someone else could explain about certain pictures being prohibited, as I'm not sure of that point, since I had no formal Jewish education.
The very small, paperback copies of the Hagaddah we often use in the U.S. these days are
used as guides to the words and prayers to be said before eating the meal. The books are not large or extensive like bibles or other holy books.
Some editions do have some line-drawings, not meant to be important. There often is a simple line-drawing at the beginning showing a plate of ritual foods: bitter herbs, a boiled egg, a shank bone, greens to dip in salt water. This is to guide the family in setting up for the seder. Matzo is put on a separate plate.
I've starting reading, and would like to assure others that it is not at all necessary to understand Jewish rituals to enjoy this excellent book by Brooks!
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JoanG - what a find! This books is still on the best seller list - to have found it at what sounds like a remaindered price is amazing! So happy to have you with us - I think you will appreciate this book - your experience as a docent in the art world will add to the discussion. Welcome!
Kidsal - I've been reading, and trying to absorb the information in the sites you and claire have provided regarding the art of illumination. Yes, I do remember the discussion of Panuk's My Name is Red - and the art of Eastern illuminated manuscripts. The Sarajevo manuscript was actually Spanish - revealing artistic styles of the Middle Ages. Let's put the link to Illuminated Manuscripts in the heading for future reference. Thank you both!
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True, MIPPY, illustrations are not expected. The prohibition against 'graven images', referring to idols, was interpreted by Jewish canon to refer to all
forms of artistic reproduction. Plants were acceptable, such as the pomegranates carved around the Temple.
That is what makes the Haggadah in this story so remarkable. It was unheard
of to have an illustrated medieval Haggadah. The research into it is what
makes up the core of "People of the Book".
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Thanks for the welcome Joan P.
I was shocked to find the book for $3.00 and it is a large print edition too. I found it at our local Books A Million. They have a small selection of books which are from libraries and this was in that section. I don't think it has ever been read . It looks so fresh and new. I just really go lucky and I am looking forward to starting to read it. I will probably start it today since I have nothing else to read right now.
I was looking for Agatha Christie's "Pocket Full of Rye" when I found this one but no luck with finding it.
Joan Grimes
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Thanks, Mippy - now we understand that the Haggadah (Haggadot?) refers to the words, the ritual - and not to the artwork. The Haggadah unearthed in Sarajevo is then more of a treasured of ancient artwork - rather than a sacred religious article. Is that right? Is that the reason you tell us it is not necessary to understand the Jewish rituals to appreciate and understand this book, Mippy?
Babi - you've just added an interesting dimension to the consideration of the Sarajevo manuscript - The prohibition against 'graven images' - against artistic renderings in sacred documents. Hmmm
JoanK - this brings to mind the Hagaddahs which your children enjoyed - made expecially for children. For some reason I concluded that if for children they would be illustrated, no?
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JoanP asked:
Is that right? Is that the reason you tell us it is not necessary to understand the Jewish rituals to appreciate and understand this book?
Yes, the unique Sarajevo Haggadah (plural is Haggadot) is interesting to readers of any religion, believers or not, because of it's historical and artistic attributes.
I was concerned that our conversation about the details of our Passover Seders might put off some potential participants. In the section I've read so far, Brooks does not go into the details of the foods served, nor into the differences of how the Seder is observed among Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews.
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can't please everybody. I like the details
claire
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I love the details.
Joan Grimes
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Re illuminated Manuscripts. This is what I found:
Centuries before Johannes Gutenberg (born circa 1400) invented the press named after him, all documents were written by hand = manuscripts, from the Latin words manus, n. fem. and scriptum, n. neut , in medieval Catholic Monasteries, by Jewish scholars and, after the rise of Islam, also in the Middle East, where the art flourished.
These "illuminated" texts included ornate, gilded borders and illustrations, they required patient, painstaking work. That made these beautiful volumes expensive and therefore accessible only to those who had the money to pay for them. Customized prayer books were very popular among the European elite for a period of time. Illuminated manuscripts were produced-on a smaller scale- through the Renaissance, then the art died out.
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As Struade says, beautiful, 'illuminated' religious texts were very popular among Christians, and well-to-do people spent large sums (for those day) to commission illustrated prayer books and biblical texts. One did not see such illustrations in Jewish religious texts, which is what made the Sarajevo Haggadah so rare and valuable.
Nowadays, I suspect the use of art in Jewish texts may vary depending on
whether it is used by a conservative or reform congregation. I'll have to check on that.
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That's an interesting question, Babi. Maybe someone here can answer that.
You've got me thinking about the period - and place the Sarajevo manuscript was created - The middle of the 13th-14th century - in Spain! It will be interesting to learn how and when it made its way to Sarajevo - and why it is still in Sarajevo. Is it like the Elgin Marbles in the British Museum? I wonder if Spain or any other country wants it back - or if it rightfully belongs to Sarajevo?
Maybe we won't learn that - but we will be tracing its journey from Spain to Bosnia.
Here's one of the pages from the manuscript - A beautiful thing, isn't it? Amazing how the colors are still so vivid after centuries of being moved around!
(http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/08small.gif)
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Whooee!, Joangrimes. I've got to add that site to my favorites list. Thanks for
mentioning it.
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finally we get to see a real page from the srajevo haggadah. the colors are amazing. The reds and blues held up wonderfully although both are subject to fading in strong light. the blue lapiz ladeli? inthe book but could be cobalt, the red carmine as described somewhere there. Alizeran crimson supposedly relted but ore of a blue tone to it as commonly used today. The brilliant reds we use in studio pottery are really make from lead as a flux and low fire. I wonder how they achieved it then. Maybe it was not the one used for pottery as I know it since o;ur links suggest oil as the medium. hmmm. just wondering.
claire. . .studio potter for over thirty years as well as painter.
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105 posts a moment ago and we are not even into discussing the book yet. wow. claire
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Thank you, Claire. The presence of an artist in a discussion like this is invaluable.
Happy Fourth!
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While searching for information a couple of weeks ago about Haggadot I found images of the illuminated manuscript as Joan has shown. This is now worth 700 million dollars!
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JOANP: yes, the children's haggadah is illustrated. The kid's favorite was the picture of the pharoah waking up to find his bed covered with frogs during the ten plagues that God sent to Egypt to pursuade pharoah to let the Israelies go. Accompanied by a song "frogs here, frogs there, frogs, frogs everywhere" sung lustily (and offkey) by everybody.
Haggadot now are routinely illustrated, the point of the Sarijevo Haggadah, as I understand it is that it was the first (known).
We don't have to know anything about seders or haggadot to read the book, except what the author tells us (it's old, beautifulul, an historic first). We "bookies are used to thinking of books in terms of what they SAY. This is quite different from looking at books as historical objects, which is different again from looking at them as works of art. Many who collect early christian manuscripts don't do so because they want to know what they say -- there are other sources for this. They do it either for their artistic or Historical value. This is the realm in which we are working.
So, their are at least three ways of looking at this book: as an object of art, as an historical artifact, and, the way that we are used to, as a conveyer of written meaning.
Even here, we will see right at the beginning of the book, there are conflicts, depending on the way the characters look at the book. If it is primarily an object of art, it should be treated one was: if primarily an historical artifact, another. But no one, as far as I've read in the book, is looking at the text to see what it says. In theory, other scholars might actuually read it, to see what, if any, changes in the content there are (like my frog song, which might show a certain historical change in the way some modern Americans view the ceremony). But that's not in the book, as far as I've read.
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You mean there actually is a Sarajevo Haggadah?! I assumed the book was fictional. Oh, my stars (to borrow a quaint old expression) I have got to
go find out more about that!
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Babi, at the end of the book in the Afterword the author tells which parts are real and which are fictionalized. that helped me a lot in my reading, I kept going back and forth trying to seperate the fact from the fiction.
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Oh yes, historical fiction it is. That is information that should be in the heading - I'm quite sure we've been putting that information in the Book Bytes - but it's not in the heading.
Before we get into Geraldine Brooks fiction - let's do some research now to learn what brought this author to Sarajevo to consider this subject. It iw a fascinating story -
By the way, the author will try to answer our questions via email- even though she is travelling abroad.
We'll keep a chart of questions you might like to propose to her -but not to overwhelm her, we'll only send a few each week. If we overwhelm and she's travelling, she might not respond to any of them.
I know I've seen references on the web to what rought her to Sarajevo in the first place - can you find anything - I've forgotten the details as that was some time ago.
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Question # 3 is interesting to me although I know next to nothing of Jewish religious texts.
I have to tell you this story as we often remark how common it is to note something in our everyday lives, as we read and discuss a book together.
Friday night, at my SIL's brithday party, an extended family member, (a Jewish man) whom I frequently spar with and I were discussing this book and as usual I asked many questions.
Scoffing at me, he told me that I was pronouncing it incorrectly and that the accent is on the 2nd syllable - as in hag GA dah which means "telling". After a lengthy discussion I asked HIM if he fullfilled the scriptual commandment to "tell his son" about the Jews being freed from slavery in Egypt? He said "yes" and wnet on to speak in Hebrew, telling me that it comes form the book of Exodus 13.8 in the Torah.
We had quite an interesting discussion even though he looked at me puzzled and said "Andy, I always assumed you were smarter than that."
"What the He** does that mean, how would i know anything about Jewish tradition," I shouted (with about 35 other people staring at us around the pool.) ::)
The family is used to us getting into heated debates, but not the guests, so my daughter gave me one of those "be careful, mom" looks and the two of us went off into the sunset for a glass of wine. This is true- can you believe it? Talking about a ha GA dah, even if he didn't know anything about the Sarejavo Haggadah (of which I capitalized on)!!!! :o
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Joan, I will get right back to you on that issue. I just read that on the internet last night.
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Check out this site (http://www.yiddishbookcenter.org/+10443)
Brooks first heard of the famous Sarajevo Haggadah, which arrived in Sarajevo in 1894, while working as a foreign correspondent for the Wall Street Journal. Reporting on the siege of Sarajevo she learned that the Haggadah, a treasure of the Bosnian National Museum, had gone missing for the third time. The Haggadah had first disappeared from the National Museum during the Second World War when a Muslim librarian whisked it away to safety. This time another Muslim librarian rescued the Haggadah by locking it in a bank vault during the Bosnian civil war.
I think personally that we should look for this kind of information to familiarlize ourselves with so that we do not have to ask the same questions of our author that others have repeatedly asked.
Also, in the very back of my book there is an intro and information about eraldine Brooks that answers many questions.
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Oh, I agree, Andy. We will be very selective about the questions we send on to Geraldine Brooks - and as you say, if there are already answers on the web, we won't repeat those.
Thanks for the research -
So, the author was at one time a foreign correspondent for the Wall Street Journal - in Sarajevo. I am curious as to WHEN she was a foreign correspondent in Sarajevo - I think that is going to be significant.
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Hillary Clinton was there in the midst of the sniper problem. no wonder she thought she was running under fire at the air port. this is the period in the present tense at the beginning of the novel.
claire
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I have just begun reading "People of the Book" and want to mark my place here. I got it at the library and hope I can re-check it twice so I'll have it through at least part of the discussion.
Although it's been many years since I went to Seders at the home of family friends and was part of "exchange" evenings between my college Westminster Foundation (Presbyterian) and the Hillel Foundation (Jewish student group), I'm not totally unfamiliar with Jewish customs.
Thank you for the links. I hadn't looked at the back of the book yet, but had wondered if the Sarajevo Haggadah was a real document.
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CALLIE: welcome!!
I'm with you, Alf. How the ---- would you know, unless you asked. And answers like that don't give a lot of incentive to ask.
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Callie - I'll echo Joank - Welcome! Congratulations on getting a library copy. From what I hear, the wait is long in many libraries!
I checked the heading and see there is a statement there regarding the fact that the book is historical fiction. I did BOLD it though so that it is more noticeable.
This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain.
Notice that we are adding relevant links to the heading - also the reading/discussion schedule.
We'll begin the story in Sarajevo on July 15. Notice too that Pat has put the number 1 in red font - on the map - which you can enlarge twice to see it better. (Thanks, Pat.)
Now, what do you know of Sarajevo? The war? The Olympics? In an attempt to remember the Olympics, I tried to remember the figure skaters. They usually get my attention first. I thought it was the "Dueling Carmens" - remember Katerina Witt and Debbie Thomas performing to the same music? I looked them up -and see they were in Calgary in 1988. The Sarajevo Olympics were held in 1984. Who remembers anything about those Olympics? Was this Torvil and Dean's first appearance?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 15th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940 (JoanP)
July 20-24 Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96 (Ann)
July 25-August 3 Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996 (Traude)
August 4-August 8 Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996 (JoanP)
August 9-August 13 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996 (JoanK)
August 14-18 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002 (JoanP)
August 19-August 23 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge)
|
Prediscussion Considerations
1. Had you ever heard of the illuminated medieval Spanish manuscript, now known as the Sarajevo Haggadah before now?
2. What exactly is an illuminated manuscript? Do you think a centuries-old illuminated manuscript would be fragile?
3. Can you find the meaning or the derivation of the word, haggadah?
4. What can you find in Geraldine Brooks' background that might have led her to Sarajevo and this particular topic?
5. Do you remember the Sarajevo Olympics? Any of the athletes who participated? When did Sarajevo host the games?
6. What do you know of the Bosnian War and the situation in Sarajevo, Bosnia when the story opens in 1996?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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OK, so it WAS Trovill and Dean with their Bolero dance, who thrilled everyone with their ice-dancing in the 1984 Olympics in Sarajevo. And it was Katerina Witt who took the gold that year - AND again in Calgary in 1988. Why are we talking about the Olympics, you're wondering?Well, because by 1992, Sarajevo was under seige - all those fantastic Olympic arenas and structures were bombed to pieces.
The story opens in Sarajevo in 1996 - the city is still under seige. So what happened? What do you know about Sarajevo? Do you remember any tensions during the 1984 Olympics? I don't.
I found this when researching the Olympics -
Sarajevo 1984 -- XIV Olympic Winter GamesIn 1984, the Winter Games took place in a Socialist country for the first and only time. The people of Sarajevo gained high marks for their hospitality, and there was no indication of the tragic war that would engulf the city only a few years later.
What happened?
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I do remember the Sarajevo Olympics: Torvil and Dean changed Ice Dancing forever. Katerina Witt.
I remember vividly going through yugoslavia by train in 1963 on the Orient Express. The first class may be opulant, but Dick and I had little money and traveled 2nd or third class. The cars were the way they are in british movies: small, compartments that hold about 8 people. We were the only English speakers, but we managed to communicate anyway: everyone was friendly and helpful. We passed through a small town where there had been an earthquake: as we looked out on the shattered buildings, one of the passengers, with tears in his eyes, was explaining what happened. We couldn't understand a word, and yet we understood everything.
It made me sick that a generation later these kind people were killing each other.
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I too remember the Winter Olympics in Sarajevo in 1984 - from TV.
At that time there were still two Germanys, [u[West[/u] Germany and - isolated, caged behind the iron curtain - East Germany. There were two German teams. Katarina Witt won her medals for East Germany. Nobody could have predicted that Germany would be reunited five years later. Katarina was a wonderful skater, on the tallish side 5.5 or 6, I recall. She was a pleasure to watch and spoke good English.
The Communist party in the East, the real power, coddled and trained its athletes specifically for international competition, many amenities were available to them. But the rest of the population was impoverished. I have seen it during visits I (reluctantly) paid there.
The former Yugoslavia was artificially created at the end of World War I after the defeat Germany and its ally, Austria-Hungary. In preparation for the fateful Treaty of Versailles, lines were drawn on maps, entire regions reconfigured. The history of the Peace Conference is described in Paris 1919: Six Months that Changed the World (2001) by Canadian author Margaret MacMillan. The book is excellent, a fascinating read and contains many photographs. We have discussed it here.
Encouraged by the fall of the iron curtain, two Yugoslavian provinces, Slovenia and Croatia, declared their independence. in June of 1991. And the world watched in surprise. But Bosnia (Muslims) and Serbia (Eastern Orthodox) became a powder keg. Yes, the siege of Serajevo, the capital of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is the longest in history: it lasted four years, from April 1992 to February 1996.
At the time Geraldine Brooks was foreign correspondent and observer. She began her writing career as a journalist when the Wall Street Journal sent her to the Middle East. Her first book was Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women.
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the actor for hannah how about Sarah Jessica Parker from boys on the side.
claire
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Here's a link to the text of an interview which Geraldine Brooks did last year for Aussie TV. It was an hour long programme so it takes a few minutes to read but gives some of her background and influences. I don't think there are any spoilers.
http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm
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and here is Geraldine herself. Now who does she look like .
http://www.geraldinebrooks.com/images/brooks_dock_col.jpg
claire
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Sally Field
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I looked at a listing for thirty five upcoming and arrived women actors under thirty. ann hathaway was there but she is not the one. there was upcome work listed too. she's not there. . .so who is she joanp. . . .claire
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Gumtree: Thanks for the link to the interview with Geraldine Brooks. Hearing about her background was very interesting.
winsummm Thanks for the link to Geraldine Brooks picture. I agree with CallieinOK, she looks a lot like Sally Field.
But would they necessarily cast someone who is a look-a-like to Geraldine Brooks?
It'll be fun to see who actually is cast in the film version.
Evelyn
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For those of you who are just coming in - there is a movie in the works - and a very famous actress is signed to play Hannah Heath, the conservator in The People of the Book. My lips are sealed until you all get to know her.
I will say though - she is NOT Sarah Jessica Parker (not enough gravitas), not Sally Field, too Perky, not Ann Hathaway - and she's NOT under 30! ;D
I like the idea of likening Geraldine Brooks to Hannah, though. In some ways they are very much alike, the author and the fictional character - Those sites you are providing are full of interesting material on the author. (Thank you Gum and Claire - did I forget anyone? I've been reading the sites all afternoon.)
So what do you think?
Geraldine Brooks was for eleven years a correspondent for The Wall Street Journal, where her beats included some of the world’s most troubled areas, including Bosnia, Somalia, and the Middle East.
She says in one of the many interviews - "I was working as a reporter for The Wall Street Journal, and my beat was the United Nations, so I was occasionally required to go to Sarajevo to cover the U.N. operations there."
It was on one of those trips, during the siege of the city in the early 1990s, that I heard my fellow journalists speculating about this priceless 15th-century Hebrew codex that was the treasure of the Bosnian museum. It was missing, and nobody knew where it was.
I was inclined to think it was lost, because thousands of books went up in flames during the siege. The truth turned out to be, in a way, much better than the rumors: a Muslim librarian in the first days of the war had braved shelling to go into the museum, crack a safe, and bring this book to safety.
I heard, quite by chance, that the U.N. was funding a restoration of the actual codex, and I got on the phone and talked my way into the room while the conservator was working on the book.
But it was very dramatic -- it wasn't like any other book conservation job, because the Haggadah was under intense guard. Things were still very unstable in the city; the room was full of Bosnian police and Secret Service guys as well as U.N. soldiers. It was kind of a crazy scene, with this woman at the center of it who was the conservator.
I got to watch her do her very painstaking work"
So the seeds are sown for the Historical Fiction we are about to read!
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At last! Someone I know has ridden on the Orient Express! Thanks for that post, JoanK. And you went right through Sarajevo! Where were you travelling from - or to?
In each of the descriptions I read of the old Yugoslavia before the ethnic cleansing that took place during the seize in the 1990's, I sense that it was and had been a melting pot, the races existing peaceably side by side. I bet you wouldn't recognize those kind and friendly faces, Joan.
Has anyone else ridden on the Orient Express, or is this just a dream trip for the rest of us?
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Traudee - thank you so much for providing us with more of Sarajevo's historical background.
Didn't WWI begin with the assination of the Archduke Ferdinand - in Sarajevo?
So let's recap what you have told us -
"The former Yugoslavia was artificially created at the end of World War I after the defeat Germany and its ally, Austria-Hungary."
This story will take us to Sarajevo in 1940. The war had started. Do you know the situation there? What became of Bosnia during/after the war? The Germans were defeated, the land went to the Soviets?
I remember reading that the 1984 Olympics was the first and last Winter Olympics ever to be held in a Socialist Country. When was Tito's rule?
"Encouraged by the fall of the iron curtain, two Yugoslavian provinces, Slovenia and Croatia, declared their independence. in June of 1991."
"But Bosnia (Muslims) and Serbia (Eastern Orthodox) became a powder keg. Yes, the siege of Serajevo, the capital of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is the longest in history: it lasted four years, from April 1992 to February 1996."
Now I really must admit my ignorance - what was the outcome of the siege? Are both Bosnia and Herzegovina independent now?
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I don't know if we went through Sarajevo, but we did go through Yugoslovia. We were going from Geneva to Pyreus (sp?) the port of Athens, where we were due to catch a boat. Going tourist class is not quite as Romantic as you think: all the toilets were stopped up, and the trip lasted several days.
Yugoslovia was under Tito then and we got a taste of Communist beaurocracy. Leaving Yugoslavia, the train was stopped at some samall station. Everyone had to get off the train and stand in the snow for hours while "they" (whoever "they" were) searched the train. That is, everyone but us!! As the only americans on the train, we got to sit on board in lonely splendor while the people freezing outside stared at us. I have to admit, they were less than friendly then, but when our compartment-mates got back on board, we apologized to them. I used my warm coat to cover an old lady who looked really bad from the cold, and I think they concluded we weren't so bad.
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In the for what it is worth department, here something under the Strange Maps heading: a seige map of Sarajevo. My guess is that the Olympic stadium the the oval structure near the top right of the pages. http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/182-sarajevo-siege-map/
I think I am going to mosey on over to Google Earth and Google images to see what I can see. I am interested finding old photos showing the city and some of the buildings mentioned in the book.
BTW, I have finished the first reading section. It is really hard to put it down and not go on.
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Here is the Sarajevo National Library:
http://www.esiweb.org/rumeliobserver/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/sarajevo-center-37827920.jpg
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/sarajevo-library-serotta.jpg
The Sarajevo History Museum:
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/00/16/fd/cf/national-museum-main.jpg
This is variously called the Old City and the Turkish Quarter.
http://bih-x.info/wp-content/slike/sarajevo.jpg
Ok, now I have to tell you this is a really, really important building: a brewery ;D
http://img3.travelblog.org/Photos/30960/156393/f/1129306-Sarajevo-brewery-0.jpg
There are soooo many pictures of Sarajevo. Most are not dated. Most of what I saw were from the recent war/siege. There was even an image of People of the Book. I don't know when this was taken but I just adore this one.
http://www.davidparkstenor.com/images/sarajevo%20web.jpg
One other thing, there were a lot of pictures. some with rose petals strewn referring to the Sarajevo Rose. Nothing to do with the book, but I want to find out more about this. I'd still like to find some photos from 1940ish.
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Here's a link to an article about current-day Serbia in the July 2009 National Geographic that might be of interest. If you click on the Photo Gallery link, a series of pictures will come up that can be enlarged by clicking on each one.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/07/serbs/carroll-text/1 (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/07/serbs/carroll-text/1)
I found it by Googling "National Geographic-Sarajevo".
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about that actor: can't think of anyone??? here's a list including celebrities to look at. I like Helen Mirren myself.
http://www.bestandworst.com/rate/ballot.php?id=36222
and more here. . . .most of them blonde but what the hey.
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTUzMjM5NTIyN15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwMTk4Mzg2._V1._CR83,0,319,319_SS80_.jpg
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Such a lot of links t to look at - no time right now but will come back later.
Winsummm You're really caught up on this actor thing...have you considered that it may be an Australian Actor to play the Australian conservator? - Cate Blanchette would be about the right age and is high profile....and then there is Nicole Kidman....have to wait and see
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Those are great pictures, FRYBABE! I wish I could visit those places, though
it might be frustrating to be in a library full of books I couldn't read.
I do not that the brewery appears to be the best kept building. More money
available there, I should think. ;)
Naional Geographic is one of my favorite learn and love magazines, CALLIE.
I have no trouble waiting in somebody's office if they are lying around.
Helen Mirren is an excellent actress, CLAIRE, but from the last picture I saw
of her, she could not pass as a woman in her late thirties, no matter how good the make-up people are.
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JoanP,
Here's a link to the !st Tuesday Book Club in Australia discussing "POB". Thought you might be interested in listening to it.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/firsttuesday/s2170245.htm#top (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/firsttuesday/s2170245.htm#top)
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Good morning all. I have just finished reading all your posts and will try to get my hands on this book before July 15. I am leaving for a couple of days of sun and relaxation so I will see if my library has it to take along. It sounds like a fun read from all your posts.
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Sarajevo Rose is the mark left in concrete by mortar - they are filled with a red resin and sometimes resemble a rose shape. A memorial to those who died in the shelling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo_Rose
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The link to the First Tuesday Book Club discussion of People of the Book has an excerpt from the book which may be a spoiler.
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hi gum.
kidman is too pretty. I'm thinking about hannah doing her job while surrounded by security people and managing to get lost in concentration. thinking about a bookish stile lady. late thirties a must???
I persist once caught up in an idea. thinking about someone wearing rimless glasses and slightly messy dark hair drooping over the side of her face not the author. she looks neat. . hmmmm having fun anyhow. afraid to talk about the book so as not to be a spoiler. I've read it all so have to be careful. . . .claire
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Attention - did everyone hear Gum's warning about the excerpt from the book - in the link First Tuesday Book Online Bookclub? If you haven't read the book - DON'T READ IT!
Annie, it was good to hear from the panel - they had differening perspectives on the book. Two of the panel members had no use for Hannah. One of them said she loved the writing, but didn't connect with her character. It will be interesting to hear the reaction of our group. I know from past experience that you will say what you think!
Claire, I agree. Though Gum had an interesting idea, selecting an Aussie actress to play the Aussie conservator - I too think Niclole is too pretty in a blond way - to portray the Hannah I have in my head. I can't wait for your reaction to the actress who will play her - but want to wait until you all have your own image on the stage in your mind. My bet is that you will think she's a good fit - but will wait until you've read the book.
Claire - yes, late thirties - and dark hair, no Sarah Jessica blond curls.
Welcome, Bellamarie - enjoy your vacation days. Where are you going?
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Doesn't the Internet play an amazing part in our online book discussions! I can't get over the amazing information that you all are finding and bringing to the table to share with us! How can we thank you enough?
Gum, I read the link you brought yesterday on Geraldine and upbringing in Australia. I put the link in the header so that it will travel with us into the actual book discussion next week. It fascinating reading of her Roman Catholic upbringing and then later, of her conversion to Judaism at the time of her marriage to Tony Horwitz. There was so much information in that interview that will contribute to our knowledge and understanding of the author - and Hannah Heath too, I think.
I loved reading of her mother's influence on forming her imagination - and her father's, which ultimately brought her to politics, journalism, her job with the Wall St. Journal covering the UN in wartorn countries - including Bosnia.
The photos are beautiful, Margie/Frybabe. You really get a feel for the place - although they do look a bit peaceful, don't they? The one you refer to as your favorite looks like an oil painting - could be anywhere. I hope to see some 1940's pictures too - although Sarajevo was occupied by the Germans until the end of the war. Maybe Sarajevo was spared the bombing?
Callie - that was such an important link you provided to the divisions in Yugoslavia. My husband explained today that Yugoslavia means "All Slavs." It is amazing to consider the divisions that exist today. Yugoslavia is GONE. The land that was once considered to be Yugoslavia is now as the map Callie has provided - 7 nations (I thing that's what they are called)
Bosnia (with its capital, Sarajevo), Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Kosovo...
Just look at this map! (Click it twice to be able to read it.)http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/07/serbs/img/map-serbs-760.jpg
It makes you wonder what it's like today - there are peacekeepers still. The divisions were made according to ethnicity, which included religion. I'm quite sure the Muslims are in the majority in Sarajevo. We need to look up to see by how much and where the Catholics and Orthodox figure in that. Is there a Jewish population? We should be able to find something about that.
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JoanP,
Sorry that I didn't read the spoiler. Only watched the book club discussion. Mea culpa!
While I was watching the movie, I noticed that one of the readers misnamed Hanna's job. I believe he referred to her as a restorer. Hey, we all know that she was not a restorer but a conservatore.
I see that you have found the article that I mentioned in National Geographic. I read the whole thing and was much confused as to who was who. What a mess those people seem to be in. My SIL's grandparents were from Croatia and he has always thought that his grandfather was working to raise monies for his home country although he and his wife became citizens of America. They were married over 75 yrs. Even got a letter from the Pope on their anniversary.
I really like that map of Sarajevo from Strange Maps site.
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JoanP, the map in your # 146 is very helpful. They always are, I believe, in fact essential.
This one clearly shows the provinces of Slovenia and Croatia, the first to declare independence, as I had mentioned earlier.
Ann, the article about Serbia, especially its future, in the National Geographic , is confusing, I agree. It presupposes historical information many of us do not possess. That is precisely why I found Paris 1919 by Margaret Macmillan so clear on background and immensely helpful without being too detailed or overwhelming.
Part Tree of the book with the heading THE BALKANS AGAIN has a chapter about Yugoslavia (pp. 110 - 135)
On p. 111 Margaret Macmillan writes
Many people in Paris found the Balkans confusing. At his first meeting with (Serb statesman) Nikola Pasic (also spelled Pashitch), (British Prime Minister) Lloyd George inquired whether Serbs and Croats spoke the same language. Only a handful of specialists, or ranks, had made it their business to study the area. What most people knew was that the Balkans were dangerous for Europe; they had caused trouble for decades as the Ottoman empire disintegrated and Austria-Hungary and Russia vied for control; and they had sparked off the Great War when Serb nationalists assassinated the heir to the Austrian throne in Sarajevo.
JoanP,
The German occupation of Sarajevo in WW II began in 1941 and ended in 1945; the city was bombed. In the Bosnian war the city was shelled by the Serbs and also bombed again, according to an article by Andrew Marshall in Brussels in The Independent World of 4 August 1993. This is how it begins :
The allied agreement yesterday to United States plans for air strikes in Bosnia was obtained only after guarantees on the involvement of United Nations forces in their implementation, according to alliance sources.
The deal struck by the North Atlantic Council in the early hours reflects a careful trade-off. The US wanted a significant shift in the use of air power, with Nato playing an active leading role. France and Britain were concerned by this extension of the West's role in the hostilities and wanted limitations. The agreement released yesterday remains ambivalent in key areas, but its wording reflects a precise political balance.
The agreement was a clear warning to the Bosnian Serbs, said Stephen Oxman, US Assistat Secretary of State. 'If they do not cease their efforts to strangle Sarajevo, Nato will be prepared to use air power', he said. The outcome is a triumph for the Americans. Nato was also delighted that the US had shown decisive leadership, while the alliance had been kept together.
The siege lasted for almost four years, from April 1992 to February 1996.
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JoanP.
How about Judy Davis as Hanna in the film version?
She's a magnificent actress (A Passage to India). She's Australian and from Perth (also Gum's home).
And she's dark-haired. :)
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Yes, Traude, I agree Judy Davis would do it well but I rather think that these days she is a trifle too old for the part.
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Winsummm You've got me going on this actor thing... can't agree with JoanP's thought that Nicole Kidman is too pretty - think of how they made her up into an untidy, dark haired Virginia Woolf for that part in The Hours. And her acting in that role earned her an Academy Award. I'll stick with her as she'd do Hannah Heath to a T.
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Just a few lines to say my book should arrive soon .. was notified by Band N it was on its way and that usually means in about two days.. I will be careful I hope and not read too far ahead ,,,but I know from past reading a good book I sometimes cant stop ...a good book just takes you along and almost demands you finish it ;;;but am looking forward to discussing it and reading the posts only makes it more exciting to start.. so take care amd see 'ya later alligators ;D
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Oh, well, JOAP, any actress who wants a role will happily change her hair
color to get it. Me, I don't know enough about actors and actresses to even
try to suggest one. Except for a few well-known favorites, I simply enjoy
the fictional characterization and seldom think twice about who played the
role. Very lazy of me, of course.
The political situation in that part of Europe is very confusing to me, so I'm
glad to see I'm not the only one. I think I would need a well-written book, a
la McMillan, to get a grasp on the whole thing.
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Here are some of the links I came up with for Sarajevo, 1941. I clicked on "destruction" on this first link and came up with even more info and demographics.
http://serbianna.com/blogs/savich/?p=308
Here is a rather lengthy but interesting history of the area: http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/006.shtml
This next link is a rather scathing review of the POB. http://www.islamicpluralism.org/articles/2009a/090301brooks.htm
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Look, Fairanna has joined our growing ranks! Welcome ~ Anna!
Babi, I think we have such a enthusiastic group gathering here - plus the Internet at our fingertips, I really don't think we need to read another book in order to understand what is going on in Sarajevo during the time in which the book is set. Although I do agree with you - because of the chaos in this area, it does get confusing. As Annie says - it was a real "mess."
Maybe if we focus on the two periods in which the Hagaddah surfaced in Sarajevo, we can simply matters and not get overwhelmed with the amount of information available on the Internet - I think we need to get a feeling of the place, without going into the long history of upheaval in that poor beleaguered area. You have to wonder if it will really ever be settled.
Let's start with the year 1940 - the first time the book appeared in Sarajevo - we'll be reading about this in G. Brooks' fictionalized rendering of this discovery.
Than you, Traudee for helping us with this -
"The German occupation of Sarajevo in WW II began in 1941 and ended in 1945; the city was bombed."
Traudee - Do you know who did the bombing - Was it the allied forces during the bombing - or the Germans prior to the occupation?
I do see in one of the links Frybabe brings to us that - Sarajevo's ancient Jewish synagogue "was immediately destroyed by German, Croat, and Bosnian Muslim forces, after the occupation of the city, according to Leni Yahil in The Holocaust: The Fate of European Jewry, 1932-1945". “On April 16, German forces entered Sarajevo, and, with local Muslims, plundered and destroyed the main synagogue.”
So, the city wasn't occupied bombed until 1941 - thank you for the links - and the photos, Frybabe
Occupied until 1945. Hmm...we'll have to rely on the fiction to learn what happened to the book - in 1940 or 1945. I imagine there was a frenzied atmosphere to preserve precious items as the people came to realize that the Germans were coming.
We do know that by 1984, Sarajevo was rebuilt and restored to host the Olympics.
Now we need to turn to 1991 to see what lead to the upheaval - some would call it a Civil War - to get a sense of the situation in which Geraldine Brooks found herself as a reporter- and the next time the Hagaddah surfaced - in 1996 during the uneasy truce closely maintained by outside peacekeepers.
ps. No, not Judy Davis - although she fits the "Hannah" in my own mind. As far as I can tell, there already is an actress who has "film rights" to the movie - whatever that means.
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Frybabe - I've carefully read the "scathing Muslim review" you brought to our attention and can understand the reviewer's feelings - seeing the events he has experienced first hand, presented as historical fiction for the entertainment of the rest of the world. I thought that his reaction was understandable - but am a bit uneasy, perhaps unwilling to believe that Geraldine Brooks brings us a work "based on lies", as he tells us. I think she brings us the story based on the information she had - and then goes on with her fiction, which seems to trivialize reality - in the eyes of the Muslim reviewer.
How about a little ethnic/religious background? I think it is critical to our understanding of the situation in Sarajevo. Ethnicity seems so closely tied to Religion, it is difficult to find information that separates them.
Bosnia is predominantly Muslim - still (although during the siege in 1992, the Serbs massacred/deported thousands - staggering numbers, children too - in an ethnic cleansing attempt. when they occupied the Bosnian capital of Sarajevo)
.
Bosnia today - Muslim 40%; Orthodox Christian 31%; Roman Catholic and 14% "other?"
Serbia - Orthodox Christian, 85%: Roman Catholic 6%; Muslim 3%
Croatia - Roman Catholic 88%; Orthodox 5%.
Croatia and the Serbs were at war until signing a peace agreement in 1991. It was then that Serbia turned its attention to the ancient capital of Sarajevo located in Bosnia. Serbs against Muslims.
You need to look at the map to understand what they wanted - not Bosnia itself, just the capital city. I hope I've got that right - I'm sure someone will correct me if I've misunderstood in my attempt to simplify -
(Click it twice to be able to read it.)http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/07/serbs/img/map-serbs-760.jpg
It is my understanding that Geraldine Brooks was not in Sarajevo during the actual Serbian siege of the city, but came in during the unstable period immediately following - I may be wrong about this. She does indicate in the link Gum brought to us, now in the heading, that she was there to see the Hagaddah being examined by a conservator in 1996. Whether she was there earlier, during the actual siege as a journalist, I'm not sure. Shall we put this on our list of questions for Geraldine Brooks?
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JoanP, A copyright holder (which is not necessarily the author) can sell or option a work to someone who hopes to get financial backing and directors, production people, etc. interested enough to a movie. I don't know the ins and outs, but I expect that the rights holder can produce the film, sell the rights if they decide not to produce, or in the case of options, let it expire. Once the option expires, I expect the "rights" go back to the copyright holder.
As far as the review, Brooks did state that lots of the book was fiction or fictionalized. The review is handy to point out areas, perhaps, that we need to fact check. His concern that if this becomes a movie viewers will remember/regard things as fact rather than the fiction is valid in situations where the viewer has no or little knowledge of the events portrayed.
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I share that concern. I've found that the first thing I read on any subject sticks in my mind, and becomes "the truth". Thus I would like to be clear as to which parts are based on facts. Unfortunately, the critic was long on anger, and short on details.
On the other hand, parts of this book are obviously fiction. I've only read the begining, but took her having the book saved by a Muslem as a statement of unity in the preservation of history and art that transcends religious differences, rather than literal fact (I don't know why the critic was offended by it). And the butterfly wing as a symbol of where it went was obviously poetic liscence.
The following from the historical text linked above may or may not be useful:
"The Bosnian Serbs are representatives of the Orthodox Christian Church and of the Byzantine culture and are part of the larger Serbian nation. The Bosnian Croats are representatives of the Roman Catholic Church and the Austro-Hungarian culture and are part of the Croatian nation. The Bosnian Muslims are representatives of Sunni Islam and were part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire and culture. The Bosnian Jews are representatives of Judaism and are mostly descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain following the Inquisition and expulsion of the Jews."
It left me confused. Are the Bosnian muslems Serbs, Croats, both, or neither? We have both religious and ethnic differences here: not clear how they interact.
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Many thanks for the posted links.
We can assume, I believe, that the reported events inevitably reflect the origin and provenance of a historian, like Carl Savich, e.g.
There is no absolute truth, especially not in this centuries-old struggle between religions, ethnicities and cultures. Unrest in the Balkan countries has a long tradition.
This is what Richard Holbrook wrote in his Forword to Paris 1919:
Some of the most intractable problems of the modern world have roots in decisions made right after the end of the Great War. Among them one could list the four Balkan wars between 1991 and 1999; the crisis over Iraq (whose present borders resulted from Franco-British rivalry and casual mapmaking); the continuing quest of the Kurds for self-determination; disputes between Greece and Turkey; and the endless struggle between Arabs and Jews over land that each thought had been promised them.
As the peacemakers met in Paris, new nations emerged and great empires died. Excessively ambitious, the Big Four set out to do nothing less than fix the world from Europe to the Pacific. But facing domestic pressures, events they could not control, and conflicting claims they could not reconcile, the negotiators were, in the end, simply overwhelmed -- and made deals and compromises that would echo down through history."
IMHO we don't have to go deeply into what is, after all, past history, - none of which can be corrected. I believe there are two tasks ahead, the discussion of Hanna's journey, the developments in her own life, and the wonderfully imagined journey and salvation of the sacred codex itself.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/peoplebkcvr.JPG) | You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath, Geraldine Brooks' edgy Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work. How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 15th century?
The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then, into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way. This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain. |
Discussion Schedule:
July 15-19 - #1 - Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
Sarajevo, 1940 (JoanP)
July 20-24 Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96 (Ann)
July 25-August 3 Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
Hanna, Boston, 1996 (Traude)
August 4-August 8 Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
Hanna, London, Spring, 1996 (JoanP)
August 9-August 13 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996 (JoanK)
August 14-18 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
Hanna, Gunumeleng, 2002 (JoanP)
August 19-August 23 Afterword | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmapsm5.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/peopleofbook/pobmaplg5.jpg)
(click twice to really enlarge)
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Prediscussion Considerations
1. Had you ever heard of the illuminated medieval Spanish manuscript, now known as the Sarajevo Haggadah before now?
2. What exactly is an illuminated manuscript? Do you think a centuries-old illuminated manuscript would be fragile?
3. Can you find the meaning or the derivation of the word, haggadah?
4. What can you find in Geraldine Brooks' background that might have led her to Sarajevo and this particular topic?
5. Do you remember the Sarajevo Olympics? Any of the athletes who participated? When did Sarajevo host the games?
6. What do you know of the Bosnian War and the situation in Sarajevo, Bosnia when the story opens in 1996?
Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s2446434.htm); Sarajevo Haggadah (http://www.haggadah.ba/); Early Haggadah Manuscripts (http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/exhibit1.html); Illuminated Manuscripts (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09620a.htm); Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts (http://www.historicpages.com/texts/mshist.htm);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), JoanK (jkraft@socal.rr.com ), & Traudee (traudestwo2@gmail.com)
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Oh, I wasn't suggesting that we read another book in conjunction with this
discussion, JOAN. I was just saying that personally I would need such a
book to understand the confusing historical background. For the purposes of
this book, what the author tells us is adequate, I think.
Oops, I wrote a note here, and then realized that info. was from the book
itself. Deleted, promptly. I will say that I did not see any depiction of
Muslims that deserved such a 'scathing' response.
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Perhaps, because we are reading fiction, we can separate the book itself from the true Haggandah presented to Sarajevo and preserved in the National Museum. This book is a story about a woman's opinion of what happened to the sacred codex plus the story of her life while involved in researching the clues that have fictionally popped up.
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"People of the Book" is also a fictional story of exactly that - the people who were involved as the Haggadah found its way to Sarajevo.
You might want to take a close look at the map inside the jacket cover - and take note of the sketches from each place that's marked. (Hint, hint :))
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It's good that we take the time now to understand that this is historical fiction based on what is known of the actual appearances of the Sarajevo Haggadah - before we get into Geraldine Brooks' imaginary story - built around the facts.
Because the author actually spent time in Sarajevo during the siege, actually saw the Haggadah when it was presented to the conservator and researched the history of the book, I feel confident in accepting the factual part of the book. I don't agree with the criticism that she had an agenda - or worse, lied about things that she knew were falsehoods. I do understand how it would bother some to see the facts mixed with fiction - it sort of trivializes the facts if you care strongly about them - as the Muslim reviewer obviously did in his criticism of the book. Did you read his criticism? Was there anything in it that concerned you?
One thing he said that puzzled me, especially when you consider that Geraldine Books, a convert to Judaism, would have no reason to downplay the Jewish part in displaying the manuscript"-
"Brooks skips over the historic showing of the manuscript by the city’s Jewish community, and devotes little attention to today’s Bosnian Jews, who figure prominently in the life of contemporary Sarajevo"
Perhaps he is overlooking the fact that the story, though written in 2006, opens in 1996, a very unsettled time for all Bosnians.
JoanK - you present an interesting question -
Are the Bosnian muslems Serbs, Croats, both, or neither? We have both religious and ethnic differences here: not clear how they interact.
As I understand it - with the help of the World Almanac - and posted in #156:
Bosnia is predominantly Muslim - still - although during the siege in 1992, the Serbs massacred/deported thousands - staggering numbers, children too - in an ethnic cleansing attempt. when they occupied the Bosnian capital of Sarajevo.
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Bosnia today - Muslim 40%; Orthodox Christian 31%; Roman Catholic and 14% "other?"
Before the siege, the Muslim number was much higher, but they were massacred and deported.
Serbia - Orthodox Christian, 85%: Roman Catholic 6%; Muslim 3%
Croatia - Roman Catholic 88%; Orthodox 5%.
Nothing is said about the Bosnian Jewish population - do you think they are included in the "14% designated as "other"?
It would be interesting to know what the Jewish population numbered in the 1990's during the siege. I'll check around - you do too.
Callie, the map on the inside cover of the book has been reproduced here - it appears in the heading - in the first post on the top of every page. Do you see it? Pat has put a red #1 at the location in Sarajevo - next to the 1996 Sarajevo ruins - where the story begins. If you click the map twice, you should be able to read the small print.
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It seems to me that the Muslim reviewer - he of the scathing report - really wanted POB to be a different book perhaps written from another point of view. If he felt so strongly maybe he should write a story more to his own liking.
All we have to do is remember that we are reading imaginative fiction which uses historical events as a starting point and has a wonderful artifact and work of art at its centre.
Isn't it amazing that Brooks actually saw the conservator at work on the Haggadah - that she was 'on the spot' at the crucial time.
Can't wait for the 15th to begin this journey together.
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JoanP
The criticism of a Muslim is to be expected. Geraldine Brooks already faced it after the publication of her first book about the hidden world of Muslim women.
In this case, I believe, the criticism is NOT warranted because, as I read it, the book is not about the Jewish population in Sarajevo in 1996, but about a precious, authentic codex that was passed in secret from its first-known provenance, Spain, through different countries over a few centuries and ended up in Sarajevo where it is now proudly displayed. As to the percentage of the Jewish population in Sarajevo in 1996, GB is bound to know the answer.
Babi, of course we are free to read up on anything that could provide the answers we seek. And IMHO there is no better place to find them than Paris 1919. We know very little about 20th century European history and geography except for mass murderers like Hitler and Stalin.
Macmillan's book is a pleasure to read, has short chapters presented in chronological order, and an excellent index. There are some amusing anecdotes, too, e.g. about crowned heads, like Queen Marie of Romania, who was beautiful and a bit of a femme fatale who invited herself to tea with President Woodrow Wilson, the US representative, and appeared half an hour late. :D
P.S. Gum Found your # 165 just now while proof-reading my post. Just wanted you to know that I totally agree with what you said.
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I can't get over the fact that GB was invited - or was allowed to watch the conservator examine the Haggadah, Gum! No wonder she is able to portray that scene...whoops! Need to wait before getting into the fiction. July 15 is right around the corner!
Between July 15 and the 19th, we'll talk about the Sarajevo chapters - covering 1996 and also 1940. Have you read them yet? Then you're ready to start on the 15!
Traudee, though you feel that People of the Book is not about the Jewish population in Sarajevo in 1996, I was curious to know something about it when the question arose. I'm sorry that I didn't jot down the website where I found this - will search if someone wants to read more -
Although the Association of Jewish Municipalities of Yugoslavia says only eight members of the community were killed in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the more recent war, the number of Jews living in Bosnia today has still fallen sharply. Only about one thousand remain, half the population in the pre-war period.
The small number of fatalities does not tell the whole story about the impact of the war in the 1990s on the community either, because it does not indicate how many Jewish monuments were demolished, for example.
The Jewish Municipality in Sarajevo says during the three-year siege of the city about 1,000 members of the community left in convoys organized by the Jewish Municipality in tandem with the US Jewish Joint Distribution Committee.
According to the Association of Jewish Municipalities of Yugoslavia, of the eight Jews killed in Bosnia, six were killed in Sarajevo and two in Banja Luka.
Before the beginning of the Second World War, Bosnia and Herzegovina was home to about 14,000 Jews, about 12,000 of whom lived in Sarajevo, making up about one-eighth of the city’s population at the time.
More than 10,000 were killed in the Second World War by the Nazi German occupation forces and their local allies, the Croatian Fascist Ustashe. About half the surviving 4,000 then moved to Israel over the next few years.
Although the 1991 census recorded only 426 Jews living in Bosnia by then, the Jewish Municipality put the figure at 2,500, more than half of whom lived in Sarajevo.
Today, the community in Sarajevo numbers about 800 members, with much smaller groups living in Tuzla, Mostar and Zenica. In Republika Srpska, the Jewish Community consists of about 200 members, of whom about 100 live in Doboj and the same number in Banja Luka.
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Thank you, JoanP.
There's is a pictorial representation on a State Department map at
http://www.srpska.com/MAPS/Ethnic.../map-State-Dept.html
and another map at
commons.wikimedia.org/...File:Former Yugoslavia-Map.png
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Great information, JoanP, thank you.
I just found a State Dept. map on line showing the ethnic representation, as well as a map of the former Yugoslavia and the nations that surround it.
Sorry, I am unable to link them.
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JoanP, When I come in, I usually click "Replies to your last post" - which takes me to the post following the one I last read. So I had not seen the map at the top of the page.
I do have the book so can look at that one as I read.
Thanks for calling the one here to my attention.
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That's good to know, Callie - that some people come in the way you do - and don't even see the discussion topics or information at the top of each page. We'll have to keep that in mind once we begin the discussion.
Traudee, I can't figure out what's wrong with the link to the State Department map - it appears to be all there, but some part of it must be missing.
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JoanP
How frustrating!
Right after I posted, my grands came, Kevin, 13, and Hannah, 10 (going on 15) :). They brought along their best friends from school Ailish and Kieran, who are brother and sister. With them, alas, came Brady, my grands' incorrigible black Labrador.
I love dogs, always have; but Brady is the glaring exception that confirms the rule. The feeling is mutual.
Hannah and Ailish busied themselves at my computer while I prepared supper. Now all is calm - except that I can't find the State Department link any more. Oh my. And I was sooo careful, checked and rechecked the URL. It would have been a nice complement to your excellent link.
I'll try again, though probably not tonight because the grands AND Brady >:( are spending the night ...
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You never know. I thought, with so many people hanging around, that the scene where Hanna first examines the book was overdone. Now I find that it was an entirely accurate description.
Straude, you are a softy! Grands are wonderful, but an 'incorrigible Labrador'
definitely is not. Of course I'm a fine one to talk. I once allowed a temporary
guest to keep his dog, also. Turned out the dog (a Dane, heaven help us!) was
terrified of thunderstorms. I woke after a storm to find a chair and the corner
of my kitchen table chewed to pieces. Dog had to leave, and guest went with
him. Guest did pay to re-upholster the chair, but never got back to me on
the ruined table.
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my compputer is off limits to anone but my daughter and even she leaves behind her evidence of disruption. When my grandson was three he enjoyed computer games designed for his age group and when they visited one way to keep him busy was to put them on my computer. Big mistake, big disrupter and conflicter. It took forever to get that stuff off of it.
After that I wouldn't allow it and it made for family disruption but was worth it.
My daughter is a pro with computers but even she messes things up for me, so I let her but and don't say anything but expect to have to adjust afterwards. After all she comes three thousand miles to see me.
claire
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Sigh!!! My nephew saved my bacon when my computer got a horrible virus. Would it be petty to complain that he installed the "latest and greatest" music program and completely messed up my music library. oh, well.
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I'm busy catching up but I wish I had a time machine. While taking a class in Social Revolution (think Russia in 1917, etc.) the professor recounted how he had spent some months living with locals in the mountains of then Yugoslavia. They were tough and had fought the Germans in WWII and were not fans of Tito either. Wish i could pick his brain.
I think Jennifer Anniston has the look of a Hannah; I'm not a good judge of her acting talent as I usually like her when I see her. She's the right age, I could see her roaming around the back of beyond in Australia.
I've read tis book twice now and it still entrances. Such lovely references listed here; it will take me a week to look at them all.
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Count me in. I notice there are both audio and large-print editions. Still, a love story, yuck.
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I read the book already and when I went to take it out of the library again, none of the copies were available, so I bought my own copy and finished reading the first assigned part last night. It is better the second time because I know what it's about.
I'm looking forward to the 15th.
Evelyn
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Oh, I'm really looking forward to this discussion, too, Evelyn! And look, Zanybooks has found his way to Seniorlearn and this discussion - and Jackie (mrssherlock) too! Welcome both of you! We have a wonderfully, diverse group gathering.
I'll be really interested to hear what you think of this "love story." Two more days!
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I'm new to this site & this is the first square I've found that I can type in to introduce myself. I'm 'bi-coastal' - New Zealand born but also with Australian citizenship. 63 years of age; doing a Mental Health support work certificate, computer studies, and also Mauri Ora (Maori protocal). Not really a stayathome! Discovered the site through a Google search to see if Oscar Wilde genuinely wrote about a cat with nine lives and discovered discussion about The Guernsay Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society which I'd just finished reading. Now I just have to discover how to master the SeniorLearn discussions site and find the time to take part! Yvonne.
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YVONNE: WELCOME, WELCOME! Pull up a chair and join us! There are many Kiwi's and Aussies on this site. They show us geographically impaired Yanks more patience than we deserve when we ask dumb questions about your part of the world. I hope you will, too.
For example, I would love to hear a little about Mauri Ora.
Some useful links: click on the links below, then on the last page listed to get the end of the discussion:
If you want to introduce yourself to everyone (only if you want to) http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=24.0 (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=24.0)
If you have a question or problem navigating the site: http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=23.0 (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=23.0)
Or you can ask here.
To see all the discussions, go to the bottom where it says "go to" and click on the arrow.
Was that clear? If not, just ignore it.
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Yvonne, look at you! You're doing it! You've mastered SeniorLearn! A second Antipode to join our Gum from
Sydney leafy Perth- to help translate Geraldine Brooks' Australian slang! How grand! To echo JoanK - Welcome!
Did you enjoy the Guernsey Potato Peel Pie? Did you find anything about Oscar Wilde's cats? I remember searching for that myself.
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JoanP NO! NO! :o I'm not, and never have been, a Sydneysider - I live in the leafy suburbs of beautifulPerth on the Swan River. Perth is almost on the same latitude as Sydney but right across the continent on the Western Australian coast. My sea is the Indian Ocean not the Pacific. But then, how were you to know?
Yvonne Welcome! It's good to see you here. Where in NZ are you living and how did you come to take out Aust. citizenship? Hope you find time to participate - the discussions here are really super and I really do need a little more moral support to help protect myself from all these 'yanks' ;)
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ZANY, I think the 'love story' has a minor place in this book. One of the
most interesting aspects of the book is that it tells so many stories,set
in different places and different times.
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Aah, "leafy Perth" - sorry, Gum, I was mixing you with our author, Geraldine Brooks!. A different ocean altogether. I've always wanted to visit Perth, ask Bruce, he'll tell you. I too hope you stay with us, Yvonne.
Babi's right, Zany, the love story is secondary - but Hannah remains with us - and so does her heart...
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Let's take all of the information we gathered during this pre-discussion - and move on over to the discussion of
Geraldine Brooks' The People of the Book (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=680.0)