Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

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Kim by Rudyard Kipling You may have read "Kim" as a young adult, but it's a whole different book for grown-ups.  Join us on January 1 to find out why "Kim" has been beloved by young and old for over 100 years.

He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.

SCHEDULE January 1-8:     Chapters 1-4 January 9-15:    Chapters  5-8 January 16-22:  Chapters 9-12 January 23-29:  Chapters 13-15 January 30-31:  Overview

DIscussion Leaders:  
JoanK & PatH

Online Texts of Kim

Project Gutenberg  ~  The Literature Network ~ Read Books Online

Questions Week 2 1.  "It is no small thing to make a child" says the lama. In this section of the book, many people are struggling for control of Kim's future development. Looking at each one in turn, what is each trying to do? What would be the result if they have their way? Do you think any of them will get their way? Mr. Bennett Father Victor The lama Mahbub Ali Creighton Kim 2.  In these chapters, Kim’s life changes dramatically.  Does Kim also change? If so, how?  What do you think of this turn of events? 3.  In this section, Kipling portrays Englishmen (and boys) as well as Indians. What do you think of that portrayal?  What attitudes do they show? 4.  When Mahbub Ali and Kim meet Creighton, Ali makes fun of Kim’s coming school experience and past message-carrying.  What is he really doing here? 5.  When Kim arrives at St. Xavier’s School, he is met by the lama.  What is the nature of the emotional conflict the lama is suffering here?

[Babi]

PatH, I think it's marvelous casting. I don't remember the movie, but
you could hardly do better than Flynn for a daring rogue.
 
 I didn't realize someone else had chosen the poems, JUDE. Mr. Cohen
really did an excellent job of it. There were one or two that puzzled me.
Perhaps we can figure them out when we get to them.

 I found another line that made me pause and try to imagine it.
 “..that indescribable gait of the long-distance tramp all over the world”. I’m trying, without success, to visualize that gait.  I guess
I just haven't done enough walking. 'The little tramp' sprang to mind, but
I really don't think Chaplin's waddle qualifies.

[PatH]

Babi, you gave my morning chuckle, imagining hordes of pilgrims and beggars waddling across India like Charlie Chaplin.  I agree, it has to be something different--maybe a sort of swinging long-legged stride?

[kidsal]

Don't know about anyone else but  I am having trouble reading this book.  There is so much information crammed into a paragraph.  Do children read a different version?

Met two people from India over the holidays.  They have lived in the U.S. for several years.  Neither had heard of "The Raj" or "Kim."

[JoanK]

KIDSAL: I had that trouble at first, too. It almost seems as if there are two ways of reading this book. If you care about all of the names, it's impossible. But there's a flow to it. If you can let all the people and scenes flow past you, like a movie or a painting, then it's wonderful.

I tried to read it several years ago, the first way, and it just gave me a headache. I had to stop. Now, I'm just letting his scenes flow past me, and enjoying it. I don't know how to get into this second mode.

[ALF43]

I'm trying to make up my mind if this is akin to "Man of LaMoncha" (oh my gosh, what's his name?- the guy looking at the windmills?) or is it closer to The Cantebury Tales?
 We keep adding to our cast of characters with each new chapter. 
What a little devil this kid is; you have to love him for his wily, cunning ways.  Like all survivors, he changes like a chameleon, doesn't he?  He absorbs the individual mortal of the day ("de jour")  right down to the inflection of their speech and their mores. 

[Babi]

 I suppose you're thinking of Don Quixote, ALF, but I can't see any
comparison myself.  From a youngster's point of view, especially, it's
closer to Peter Pan and Huckleberry Finn.  Freedom, adventure and excitement!
  It's Kim's chameleon changes that make him so valuable to the
players in 'the Game'. He's a natural.

[elizabeth84]

Kim is indeed a natural.  He may be one of those young geniuses who are entered in university at age ll, or a natural actor who could win an Oscar at his first outing.  When these talented people are let loose amoung us without being properly catagorized (scholar, actor) they send our heads spinning and we don't know whether we're coming or going.

[PatH]

Alf and Babi, IMO it's both.

Kim and the lama are definitely like Sancho Panza and Don Quixote in one way.  We have a very high-minded idealist, oblivious to some aspects of the real world, supported on his quest by a devoted worldly-wise  person who keeps him out of trouble.  But Cervantes laughs at both his heroes, and makes them both the victims of cruel slapstick jokes.  Kipling only makes the gentlest of jokes against the lama, and Kim, as a sahib-to-be, is not made to seem foolish.

And Kim is a lot like Peter Pan and Huckleberry Finn, emotionally immature, but clever and knowing and ready for anything interesting.

[PatH]

Elizabeth, we were posting at the same time.  Yes, Kim has got to be extremely bright.  It will be interesting to see what use he makes of his abilities.

[JoanP]

Babi - as soon as I came to the description of the lama's gait - "he moved with long, easy camel-like strides"-
I wondered where you saw him "waddle."  I was moved to look up the camel's gait -
found this -

http://www.brookfieldzoo.org/czs/Brookfield/Exhibit-and-Animal-Guide/Hoofed-Animals/Bactrian-Camel.aspx

  I also watched this video of the camel's gait - you might enjoy watching the knee action -
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkfBtNsKtHg

A pretty good stride for an old man, no? How old do you think he is?

His rosary got my attention too - 81 beads.  It seems that Kipling is making a point of drawing our attention to it. I'm curious to learn more about it - will be back in a moment.

[elizabeth84]

Great Camel Walk!  Thank you.

Lovely to see you back here, Persian Mahlia.

[JoanP]

Elizabeth, I agree, Kim is smart - probably smarter than he knows.  But maybe not as smart as the priest and others are perceiving him to be.  Do you think he has special powers?  Or is he making the most of every bit of information that he has gathered.  I think it would be sad if this all goes to his head and he starts believing his own stories he is weaving.  In fact though, the stories he is weaving are based on some fact - and probably more truth than not.

There probably will be a war.  Well, not "war" - but rather "punishment"  - the term Kim heard the  commander use.  I'm wondering if this is the "punishment" he hears the priest discussing - for the murder of the women and children?  This would explain the distinction being made between war and punishment - whether or not you agree with it.   I find I know nothing of either of these wars.  Do the footnotes reveal anything more than what we are reading in the text?  

The lama believes that killing others is wrong - a true pacifist in this violent society.  Is this because he is not of this society that he is so different.  No wonder Kim keeps saying that he never met anyone like him.  The priest was certainly not the spiritual leader that the lama is.  Kim knows this - wasn't he wise to take the money from the lama until morning - knowing that the priest was going to rob him.  Imagine that - wasting good opium to steal the lama's purse!

Kipling doesn't think much of these priests - or the police either.  I did notice that the women are always kind to Kim and the lama - no matter what caste/class they are from. Kipling goes easy on them, while other groups feel his sting.

Here's something on the rosary the  lama recites - a spiritual mantra to overcome the evils and distraction of the world -

 More information of the rosary - the number of beads always divisible by nine -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_prayer_beads

[PatH]

JoanP, that's an amazing video--thanks.  I can hardly wait to see JoanK's reaction.  She acquired some strong feelings (mostly negative) about camels while living in Israel.  They seem to throw their knees outward in a way that would send me to an orthopedic surgeon and looks pretty improbable for man or beast.

I missed the "camel-like strides", but that solves Babi's dilemma, not knowing how tramps walk, certain that Chaplin would be wrong:

I found another line that made me pause and try to imagine it.
 “..that indescribable gait of the long-distance tramp all over the world”. I’m trying, without success, to visualize that gait.  I guess
I just haven't done enough walking. 'The little tramp' sprang to mind, but
I really don't think Chaplin's waddle qualifies.

We'll never know if the lama's knees wobbled outwards under his "fold upon fold of dingy stuff like horse-blanketing".

[mrssherlock]

In Hopkirk, the rosaries were used as both part of the disguise for the surveyors garbed as priests or lamas, and as a tool for measuring, counting their paces. 

[PatH]

Yes, Jackie, and we'll see that here too later.  Any normal activity might be used.

[JoanK]

There must be camels in the air today. I was trying to give an imitation of their haughty stare to a friend this morning. And now, we have their walk. Hilarious!

I was explaining to my friend how camels did me out of a job once. I was in Israel, in Beer Sheva, a small town in the dessert that looked a lot like a wild west town (it's a lot shickier now). There were even hitching posts on some of the streets. But they weren't for horses. On market days, the Beduins would come to town and hitch their camels to them while they shopped.

I had been a computer programmer in the states (this was in the early 60s, back when computers meant big mainframes that used IBM cards). There was an IBM office, believe it or not, in Beer Sheva, and I thought I would apply for a job. It was a small office, in the old town, that used IBM card sorters.

When I asked about a job, the manager explained that there was one of these hitching posts outside the office. The problem was that there was something in the IBM cards that affected camels the way catnip affects cats. He thought it was the ink. When hitched outside, they would go crazy. Every once in awhile, one would break lose and crash into the office, looking for IBM cards to eat. If I got the job, one of my duties would be to subdue these wild camels.

Needless to say, that killed any interest I had in working there. I wound up teaching English, far away from camels. But since then, I've never cared for camels.

[JoanK]

The prayer beads are, indeed, used exactly the way that Catholics use the rosary; the prayers are different, of course.

[PatH]

I'm not sure I want to think what it would do to one's spiritual health to use prayer beads as a surveyor-spy.

[Ella Gibbons]

JOANK:  That's a fascinating  - funny - story of your stay in Israel and the experience with camels!   How long did you teach there?

The lama is so naive isn't he?  Of course, coming from a monastery (I presume?) in the mountains he would hever have seen the sights of the city, soldiers, etc.  A couple of interesting sentences:

"The talk of white men is wholly lacking in dignity, said the lama."

"never speak to a white man till he is fed, said Kim"

As JoanP said the lama is constantly pulling out his beads and saying his prayers. 

A question comes to mind.  Christians have their churches, Muslims their mosques, Buddhists?  Do they have organized religion in a building?  I'll look it up.

[Ella Gibbons]

Well, it's complicated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

Am I correct in thinking that the lama in our story believes Kim was sent to him and is a reincarnation?  Not having read the text for a few days I'm not sure of my facts.

[Jonathan]

Wouldn't it be something if the lama turns out to be the biggest spy of all with his strange clothing and accoutrements? Walking the length and breadth of India not seeing anything, as we are being constantly told. And yet everybody is eager to confide in him. Witness the elderly lady in 'the family bullock cart, with a broidered canopy of two domes, like a double-humped camel.'

What brought the old lama down from his mountain-top monastery? What excuse does the old lady have for her long journey? Doing a pilgrimage...both of them. Isn't she a character?

"An increasing cackle of complaints, orders, and jests, and what to a European would have been bad language, came from behind the curtains.' Then again, we are told that the company of the lama gets her crying.

The verses at the head of the chapter are puzzling. Especially those leading off Chapter 4, with their talk of Good Luck, and Fortune. That seems so Western. Kipling has the everyday life of India heavily attuned to the blessings and/or curses of the holy men wandering about everywhere. How about the irate farmer who finds Kim and the Lama tramping across his fields? To take a closer look at a man-made irrigation ditch. He directs the two happy wanderers to the little runlet, where we meet the cobra that strikes horror into a white man's heart.

This little incident is vividly depicted in the movie, and goes a long way in answering Question Six. Kim is wowed. His lama is a snake charmer. The book adds another aspect to this. While Kim is concerned about the snake's venom, the lama sees the humbling incarnation: 'Great evil must the soul have done that is cast into this shape.' This seems judgmental to me. On the other hand, the white man is not afraid of lions. Not if he has read his bible.

Isn't young Kim a clever, streetwise kid. Even has a remedy for an opium hangover! But just like the lama wanting to come down from the mountain-top, so was Kim, eager to get away from Lahore. One seeking truth, the other adventure.

Errol Flynn is great as Mahbub Ali. His name is sung out as MahBOOBalee, with the accent on the second syllable

[PatH]

The lama seems to believe that Kim was sent to him.  In his belief, we are all incarnations, but I don't think there is anything more specific here.

[Jonathan]

Yes, Ella, I think you are correct. And I think the lama already has Kim believing it. From Friend of all the World, he has grown to the Friend of the Stars. With prophetic powers. There may be windmills for both of them.

[PatH]

Jonathan, you were posting while I was.  I guess you've actually watched the movie, while I've only seen the trailer on IMDB.  How does it seem?  Errol Flynn is magnificent, but he isn't quite the person described by the Flower of Delight (after searching him when he is in a real or pretended alcoholic stupor) as "a pig of an Afghan horse dealer".

[JudeS]

In answer to Question 6. Why is the book so attractive to children?

A young orphan boy succeeds in the world on his own. He has adventures and adult friends. He does it all on his own with a bravado most children (and adults) can barely dream of.  His world is strange and colorful. He does not even have to go to school to have it all.  Perhaps it was the science fiction of its day-India seems as unreal as Oz yet the people have emotions like us.
In a strange similarity to Huck Finn , both boys had alcoholic fathers and dead mothers. Huck had the same wisdom, not gained in school, of how the world really works and who a true friend is. They both have the  knowledge gained by overcoming overwhelming obstacles and coming out the other end . Who would not be mesmerized?

[Babi]

 Oh, my, how dense of me.  When ALF mentioned Don Quixote, I assumed she was comparing him with Kim. Of course, the lama would be the Don, and Kim would be Sancho Panza. Thanks for clarifying that for me, PAT.

 JOAN, I didn't see any mention of a waddle. It's just when Kipling
referred to the gait, I got a mental image of that scene with the "Little
Tramp" walking away. The camel's gait looks loose and easy, but we're
definitely not jointed that way. I would imagine the long distance gait
would have to be a long, but relaxed stride.
  My book doesn't have footnotes, which I'm now thinking is probably a
good thing. I can still go hunting for more info. whenever the spirit
moves me. (Oh, and I love the story about the camels and the IBM cards.  )

 Reverence for life is a basic tenet of Buddhism. They will not knowingly
step on an insect. Bear in mind that they believe in reincarnation, and
that each life must be allowed to work itself out to it's end. Yes, the
Lama does believe that Kim was sent to assist him.

 

"never speak to a white man till he is fed.."

  There's so much truth to that one, isn't there, ELLA?  Feed the man! Then open up the discussion. There was a specialist on my survey team that I discouraged from writing his report until after lunch, for good reason.

'Great evil must the soul have done that is cast into this shape.'
This seems judgmental to me.

  This is part of the Buddhist teachings, JONATHAN. The soul progresses
from lower to a higher form of life if it does well. If it does evil
during a lifetime, it slips back lower. It was simply an observation,
I think, rather than a judgment. The lama is giving Kim lessons as they
travel.

 

[JoanP]

Babi, I misunderstood.  When you mentioned the gait of the Little Tramp - I saw those small, mincing steps - as opposed to the long-legged camel's stride that the lama exhibits.  JoanK - loved hearing your wild camel experience!  I don't think I'd have taken that job either.  Kipling has mentioned camels several times in the story so far.  I bet he has had first-hand experience with camels too.
 

"India seems as unreal as Oz yet the people have emotions like us."

I can see the appeal for young people, Jude.- it's science fiction to them, as you point out.  No need to delve too deeply into the history of the place - it's an alien world to them. I thought I was going to read the book for just such an adventure -  the reality of the world  Kipling was presenting just seemed to overwhelm   me.  I have to  admit, this is changing as I read - and read your posts.  I love the way you are pulling out Kipling's descriptions and expressions -   holding them up for closer consideration.

Kim and the lama travelling the Grand Trunk road - such a varied, colorful lot! The Grand Trunk Road - 1500 miles!  It's the river of life, isn't it?  Is the lama missing this fact?   The lama never raises his eyes to the "passing parade of life - his soul busied elsewhere."  He tells Kim to none of these people has the WAY been shown.  And yet, he does seem to succumb to the charms of the "woman of importance"  - doesn't he?  He tells Kim he finds her "a virtuous woman and a wise one."
What is it that he sees in her that is virtuous?  She wants another grandson - she thinks the lama can arrange this.  .  So what is it about her that causes him to leave off his concentration on his beads and spend so much of his time with her?  It will be interesting to read for the answer to the question Jonathan asks - why is she weeping in her conversation with the lama?  She didn't seem the "weepy"  sort.  He must have pushed the right button.

Jonathan - about those verses - have you considered the "woman of importance" to be Lady Luck?  Kim seems to think so...

I thought it was interesting that the thinks of Kim as "thoughtful, wise and courteous....but something of an imp."  Is he seeing the real Kim?  Is Kim showing his true colors to the lama?  I think so.

[PatH]

Is Kim showing his true colors to the lama?  I think so.

I agree.  Kim is impressed by the lama's straightforward goodness and honesty, and reacts by being straightforward himself.

[Ella Gibbons]

HI JONATHAN!  You've seen the movie!  My library probably has it and if we didn't have mountains of snow on our streets, perhaps I could persuade some kind soul to bring it to me.  My wheelchair is not going to suffice as a means of transportation. 

 The Grand Trunk Road:   "A description of the road by Kipling, found both in his letters and in the novel "Kim". He writes: "Look! Brahmins and chumars, bankers and tinkers, barbers and bunnias, pilgrims -and potters - all the world going and coming. It is to me as a river from which I am withdrawn like a log after a flood. And truly the Grand Trunk Road is a wonderful spectacle. It runs straight, bearing without crowding India's traffic for fifteen hundred miles - such a river of life as nowhere else exists in the world."  - a quote from Wikipedia

Kim was impressed by the lama from the very first sight.  Was it his height (six feet)?  Was it the color of his skin (yellow face, eyes turned up at the corner)

If the lama was such an unusual sight to Kim, who thought he had seen all castes of men, why is the lama not attracting more attention from others as he and Kim wander through the land.

India seems such a foreign land, so very strange.  Could any of us even pronounce the names of some of its cities, its people?  An example - Chota Lal

For that very reason I would love to visit the country.

My heart doctor is from India and has the name of Patel (which I understand is a very common name from that country).   It is by his first name that he is known.

[PatH]

I've put up the questions for Week 2 in the heading on this page, but the Week 1 questions are still in the headings on pages 1 and 2.

I have a feeling some of us aren't ready to move on yet, and there's still plenty more that could be said about chapters 1-4.  That's OK too; we can still talk about them for a while, or about both sections simultaneously.

How far along is everyone?  It would be helpful to know.

[Babi]

 JOANP, I think the Lama was willing to stop and talk with anyone about
the "Way". If the old woman was moved to tears, then he may have felt he was doing some good there. Also, anyone who was willing to help a holy man was considered to be doing a virtuous act.

 I think it was perhaps that the Lama was from Tibet that drew Kim's
attention, ELLA. Tibetans were not encouraged to leave the country and
there would not have been many abroad. Kim was astounded to see a Tibetan holy man in Lahore. Tibetan or not, tho', a holy man on the road was a very common sight.
 (ps..There are two Dr. Patels in my area...brothers.)

PAT, I finished reading the book, and am working from my notes now.
I have them listed by chapter, so I don't get ahead of the discussion.

[mrssherlock]

I'm just starting Chapter 5 but I read very fast.

[salan]

I am also just starting chapter 5.
Sally

[elizabeth84]

The lama sees the world as a miserable place--he is tied to the Wheel of Life and strives mightily to be freed from more incarnations.  I know a prayer to Mary that takes a similar viewpoint, "to thee do we send up our sighs--weeping and wailing in this vale of tears..."  Life is for heroes (and heroines), most of us unsung.

[JoanK]

Very interesting.

[JudeS]

I have finished Chapter eight and will try to answer the last of your questions as well as referencing question # one.

In my opinion the emotional conflict of the Lama is called LOVE and separation anxiety. The Lama is the only one on your list (in question one ) that really sees what is best for Kim's future.  In sending him to a fine school he knows that Kim will change drastically.  He most likely will not return as a chula to the lama.  Nevertheless he wishes to save the boy from the clutches of Mahbub Ali, Creighton, Mr Bennett and Father Victor.
Only a good education will give Kim the ability to choose an independent life which will have meaning for himself and the world.  The Lama very much wants to be part of Kim's future but is not sure that will happen. Kim himself does not realize how much he will change and that he will have a possibility of becoming more than a very clever boy who everyone wants to use for his own purpose.

[JoanK]

Good points, Jude! I like this:

"Kim himself does not realize how much he will change and that he will have a possibility of becoming more than a very clever boy who everyone wants to use for his own purpose".

[JoanP]

Wouldn't it be something if the lama turns out to be the biggest spy of all?

Jonathan, that would be something!  You asked a question that stays with me - what brings him to India?  Is there reason to believe the healing River of Life is here - and nowhere else?

Babi - ok, I can see the Lama spending time talking to the "woman of importance"  about the Way.  I think she flatters him- by treating him with respect.    The lama admits it is hard to meditate and keep his mind on his Search now. I had to laugh when thirteen year old Kim advises his lama that all women are distractions.

PatH - I've begun Chapter VI.  I puzzled over the choice of the verse that preceded Chatper V...the one that spoke of the return of the Prodigal.  Do you have any idea to whom this refers?  Who do you see as the prodigal in this chapter?

Elizabeth, I was interested in the translation of the lama's prayer  as he meditated -
"Om mane padme hum."  Do you have a footnote in your books?
I went to this site -
 http://www.dharma-haven.org/tibetan/meaning-of-om-mani-padme-hung.htm

to learn more about the meaning of the words.  I gather that it was a mantra - cannot be literally translated.  What I found interesting - it originated in India  and then made its way to Tibet. 

[JoanP]

The action picks up now - can it be that Umballa priest's horoscope prediction has come true - to the letter?   I don't see these two men of the cloth planning a great future for Kim - turning  him into a "sahib" - and giving him "a fine education" - Rather I see them wanting to take this child of one of their regiment in hand, getting him off the streets...
(so our Kim is "Kimball.)
Jude, I expect to see things differently after reading the next few chapters.  Right now, I see the lama interested in getting on with his own Search - not even sure he will keep his promise to Kim to stay with the lady of importance until Kim gets away the next day or so...I'm going to catch up with you- tonight!