Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

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Kim by Rudyard Kipling You may have read "Kim" as a young adult, but it's a whole different book for grown-ups.  Join us on January 1 to find out why "Kim" has been beloved by young and old for over 100 years.

He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.

SCHEDULE January 1-8:     Chapters 1-4 January 9-15:    Chapters  5-8 January 16-22:  Chapters 9-12 January 23-29:  Chapters 13-15 January 30-31:  Overview

DIscussion Leaders:  
JoanK & PatH

Online Texts of Kim

Project Gutenberg  ~  The Literature Network ~ Read Books Online

Questions Week 3 1. In this section, we meet more characters who "grow" Kim. What does Lurgan Sahib want with Kim? What is the relationship between Lurgan and his other disciple? How is it different from his relationship with Kim? Why is Lurgan pleased when Kim doesn't see the vase? Why doesn't he see it? 2. What does the scene with Kim, Mahbub Ali, Huneefa, and Huree Babu tell us about each of them? What kind of person is Hurree Babu? What is a Babu? 3. What has changed in the lama's idea of his search? How does the parable of the bound elephant affect his beliefs? Are there other changes in his attitude toward Kim? If so, why? 4. After Kim leaves school, he starts dreaming and thinking in Hindustani again.  Have you ever thought in another language?  Did it change the way you thought? 5. In Chapter 11, Kim again asks "Who is Kim?" What does the passing Hindu mean when he says "I also have lost it?" 6. Kim is thrust unexpectedly into "The Game". What does E23 tell us about the lives of those in The Game? Can you understand wanting to live such a life? What are Kim's mixed reactions? Can you understand them? 7. In the reshuffling after the war of 8000 men, Russian enemies are gaining a new foothold.  What do you know about the role of Russia in British-ruled India at this time?

[mrssherlock]

Babi:  When I read that section I did not believe Kim was being judgmental or biased but simply making an observation.  That's my sociology background.  Kipling's writings seem to me to be free of bias considering the common practices at the time.  That's one of the reasons I so enjoy his writing.

[JoanK]

Kim is always swearing by telling people their mother was low-caste. And he quotes sayings that denegrate other types of people. These predjudices are in the air around him. but predjudice is not simple. He can hold these predjudices, and at the same time, be friends with the same people.

Kim knows he is cleverer than most of the people he deals with. The only ones he seems to really respect are the lama, Mahbub Ali, and Col. Creighton. His feelings toward the lama are mixed: he knows that the lama is both more (spiritually) and less (in worldly things) than he is.

[kidsal]

I agree with Joan.  Reference the silly discussion concerning what Senator Reid said about then Congressman Obama.  So much of what we say is generational and geographical and not prejudicial.  I remember being screamed at by a girl after I said “I haven’t seen you in a coon’s age!” believing what I had said was the equivalent of “It’s been a long time since I saw you last.”   I grew up in a college town in Iowa where people from around the world came to study.  I don’t remember much prejudice in my town, but I would imagine most of us who grew up with me in the 40s-50s still repeat sayings unwittingly that would now be considered prejudicial.  If you listen to the dialogue in movies of that time you can hear many of them.

[JoanP]

Hello there, Kidsal!  Good to see you.  I remember your trouble with this book - so much information crammed into each paragraph.  I  am finding the going a bit easier now - and hope you are too.

I found your post interesting.  I don't see Kipling prejudiced against the low-caste - or portraying Kim that way.  He presents Kim as a product of the environment in which he grew up - but as JoanK says, he is friends with them as individuals -
after all, he's the "Little Friend of all the World" - isn't he?  I think he's growing into this description with each new experience.  

So many teachers...
I was interested in Kim's response to Mahbub's maxim - "When among Sahibs never forget thou art a Sahib."
Kim seems to understand and accept this - but when he's among the Hind?  "What am I?  Mussalman (Muslim?), Hindu, Jain(?), or Buddhist? He seems to be struggling with his identity.  

 Mahbub tells him - "Faiths are like horses. Each has merit in its own country."

What does he mean ?  How does that help Kim?

Kim's response to this - "My lama said altogether a different thing."
Do you remember what the lama said to Kim?

[elizabeth84]

Kim's question:  Who is Kim--sahib or native? reminds me of Obama's choice.

His genealogical background has nothing to do with American slavery; as a young man he had dual citizenship here and in Kenya, and his mother's family was  white and from the Midwest.

When he was studying for his law degree he had a close relationship with a white woman of a moneyed family and was on track for a lucrative career on Wall St or perhaps DC.

And the answer to his Kim-question was, "I am an American Black, and I embrace all that that means."  Then he went to work in the black ghettoes of Chicago to teach and encourage people to speak up for themselves.

I'm such a fan of his (obviously).

[PatH]

I'm with you, Elizabeth!

[Babi]

 Ah, thank you, PAT. That makes sense in the context.

 You may be right, JACKIE, about Kim's statement being simply an
observation, but I don't agree. To call the half-caste students sons
of cleaning women and 'brothers-in-law' to sweepers sounds derogatory
to me, especially as many of those boy were from well-to-do and
respectable families. Of course, I understand that marrying out of caste
was frowned upon in India. It may be the same prejudice that we saw
here in America toward 'half-breeds', but it is a prejudice.

 Kidsal, the girl who got upset apparently misunderstood the meaning
of 'coon' in that context. I believe the reference is to the age of a
raccoon and was never a racial slur. So many misunderstanding could be
cleared up if people wouldn't jump to conclusions and quit listening.

[PatH]

I'm playing catch-up on a few points.

JudeS, I've read about other British schools that reminded me of Hogwarts too.  I think we can assume there are a lot of schools like that, and any one could be the model for Hogwarts.

Sahib - a title of respect for a white European in India - does Sahib refer to all white men or just educated ones?

JoanP, I had always thought that it was generally used as a term of respect, but could also simply refer to any Englishman or European.  It was hard to pin down, but the Oxford English Dictionary agrees with me.  Mostly it's respectful or used toward someone in authority, but can just mean European.  The OED gives many quotes for it's definitions.  I particularly liked "These English Sahebs are white-skinned, white-livered lepers" (1859).  I guess it wasn't a term of respect here.

[JudeS]

I just finished another novel on India. It came out in 2009.  It isn't great literature but it sure helped me to understand the Indian Caste System.. It's called "The Marriage Bureau for Rich People".  Its by an Indian Muslim, Farahad Zama, now living in London.Its a very easy read.
The complexities of the culture are extreme. In the part of India described in the book their are two main religions-Hindus who speak Teluga and Muslims who speak Urdu.  The book stresses the importance of family relationships especially in choosing a marriage partner.
I will quote a short passage:  "There are supposed to be four castes among HIndus-Brahmins the priestly class, Kashatriya, or warriors; Vaishyas, or merchants; and Shudras, or workers.....

There are subcastes within castes, and subcastes within subcastes...Over thousands of years the system became rigid and hereditary..subcastes were based on peoples jobs.  ...we might think that all leather workers were one subcast of Shudras but within that, the people who tanned leather were a different subcast from those who made shoes, and they were again different from those who made saddles.
I wonder how much of this Kim knew and used in his dealings with people?

[PatH]

I wonder how much of this Kim knew and used in his dealings with people?

I'm sure he was very aware of this, in considerable detail.  His insults are often caste-related, and always appropriate to the victim.

There is a lot of caste-related prejudice, and Kim, as one outside the system (and a sahib as well) can view it with detachment.  Although at the start of the book he isn't interested in being a sahib, I wonder if some of his self-confidence comes from the inner knowledge of this.

[mrssherlock]

Laurie R King's RThe Game adds much to my enjoyment of Kim.  In fact, i forget between her books how very much I like her writing; when I start one of her books, it like," Oh Yes, I'm here again in King's wonderfrul world again."  There is a nice map in the front of the book and Kim is mentioned frequently. 

[JoanK]

I read that several years ago. At the time, it had been decades since I had read Kim, so didn't appreciate the parallels. I plan to read it again, when we finish Kim.

[JoanK]

Did you notice how Kim's "handlers" always compare Kim to a polo pony? Obviously, that means he is capable of more than most horses. But does anyone know enough about polo to understand it more specifically? I'm a sports junkie, and follow many sports, but polo isn't one of them.

[PatH]

We’ve already said a lot about question 5, but I’d like to tie it together before we move on, because it’s important in the book.

The lama’s conflict is between his religion and his affections.  The Way teaches that all affections and earthly things are illusion, which must be renounced.  He has let himself become fond of Kim, and bitterly realizes his mistake in the scene with Bennett and Father Victor.

But he sees he can help Kim, as he truly wants to do, since it is meritorious to provide education.  He will pay for Kim’s schooling.

At the start of the school term, he meets Kim at the gate.  "A day and a half have I waited—not…led by any affection for thee—that is no part of the Way—but…because money (was) paid….I had a fear that, perhaps I came because I wished to see thee….It is not so."

They part.  "Do not weep; for, look you, all Desire is illusion and a new binding upon the Wheel….Let me see thee go…Dost thou love me?  Then go, or my heart cracks."

He’s making excuses for himself, and it just about makes you cry.

[PatH]

The questions for week 3, chapters 9-12, are now up on this page.  As always, discussion of previous sections is still open, and the older questions are still available on earlier pages.

[Babi]

JOANK, my reaction to the polo pony comparison was simply that they are quick to respond and agile, which seems to fit Kim pretty well.
 Since you asked, I found out a bit more about polo ponies. This seems
appropriate: "Polo ponies are not a registered breed but a type of horse or pony that possess intelligence, bravery, speed, strength and masses of agility". That's Kim, I would say.
   
  Now  Kim begins his training in observation under Sahib Lurgan.  Isn't it interesting that the games used to teach him these skills are games we all have played as children? Games that teach concentration and observation, and develop habits of memorization. And they're fun,
making it easy to learn.  Sahib Lurgan knows his business.

[JoanP]

I've been reading your posts on the caste system in India with great interest - they help to understand the castes  - and "subcastes within castes, and subcastes within subcastes...Over thousands of years the system became rigid and hereditary..subcastes were based on peoples jobs" (Thanks, Jude)  It helps to understand some of Kim's comments and attitudes based on his experience - Babi, I think his classifying the sons of cleaning ladies and chimney sweeps might very well have been recognition of the existing class system, rather than derogatory comments reflecting Kim's attitudes, do you think?

Kipling grew up here too - and would have been very aware of this "casting" according to one's occupation.

I'm a bit puzzled where Kim fits in this system.  He's too young to have a profession - it seems he is being groomed for the military.  What of his parents - his mother a maid, his father a colonel in the military?  The military seems to be high in the caste systme.

JoanK brings up the horses - and Babi the polo ponies.  Wasn't polo considered the "sport of kings?"
I just looked that up and here's what I found -

"The Game of Polo is said to be the “Sport of Kings”. It was considered an aristocrat sport because it was limited to those that possessed the wealth to participate in the sport. I believe the meaning goes a lot deeper than this. It has often been said that the game of Polo has its beginnings as a celebration after the conquering of one army by another. The leaders of the conquering army would hit the head of the defeated leader around from horseback. Although it was claimed to be the beginning of the game of Polo, there is evidence of Polo prior to this. Some believe that Polo was developed somewhere between the 3rd and 4th millennium BC in the region of Nepal, Tibet and Northern India.   Sport of Kings
 

Clearly Kim is not a wealthy aristocrat - but rather one of the prized ponies?  There are many who recognize his superior qualities and talents -  You have to wonder which path he will follow.  Right now, it seems that he wants only to follow the lama down the "road" of contemplation.

[JoanP]

So many questions arise from the next section.  Lurgan sees another side of Kim.  Was the smashed water jar really magical?  Perhaps Kim was hypnotized?  I'm trying to explain away the magic...but whatever happend, Lurgan was pleased with Kim's ability to see the jar smashed and then made whole.  I think he was - what did you take this to mean?

"I am pleased with you - yes; and I am pleased with you, no."
And then what does he mean when he tells Kim - "you are the first who has ever saved himself?"  Saved himself from what?   I am dying to know how you interpreted that!  Perhaps he has saved himself from the jealous lad who wants to poison his master? 

[PatH]

So, Kim flings "himself wholeheartedly on the next turn of the wheel" And goes to Lurgan Sahib in Simla.  Simla was the British summer capital, a refuge from the heat of the plains.  It's at the edge of the Himalayas, described by Kipling as being "at an angle of forty-five".  It certainly is!

Simla

Simla in Winter

[Ella Gibbons]

Oh, migosh PAT!  What a place, what photos.  It looks as if houses were built upon houses.  How beautiful the photo of Simla in winter.

My book was taken back to the library, but I can read it online when I have a few moments.

The phrase "all desire is an illusion" that the lama said to Kim at the gate of the school is so unusual; part of Buddhism.  I looked it up online and found the following lecture.  "Forget yourself" is what Buddhism is about???

I do believe we can separate ourselves from whatever life throws at us although it takes some effort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzPk0QVr_nQ

[JoanK]

There is so much to think about in the posts today.

The pictures of Simla are amazing. You get nothing of this from Kipling's description. To Kim, in the middle of it, it is just crowded and noisy.

The description of the polo pony is just like Kim. And polo is "the sport of Kings". Is that how the people plying "The Game" see themselves as "Kings"?

"polo pony" is a good analogy for Kim. He is extraordinary, but only performs his feats under the direction of others. I wonder how long before this pony breaks his traces?

Where does Kim fit into the caste system? He doesn't. He is English! I remember EM Forster's description in "Passage to India". English working class, who maybe were failures in their own country, can come out to India and immediately become "Sahibs" with thousands of people to look down on.

JOANp: "And then what does he mean when he tells Kim - "you are the first who has ever saved himself?"Good question. I thought at first that it only meant that Kim was the first not to give in to hypnotism, but now I think it might mean more than that. What do the rest of you think?

[JoanK]

The youtube lecture was interesting. It's a central tenet of Buddhism that this world is illusion, and that it is attachment to the things of this world that causes suffering. They believe in rebirth: as long as we are attatched to the things of this world, we will continue to be reborn in an endless round of suffering. (the Wheel of Life). Only by breaking that attatcment can we be free.

The lama is not the only one who has trouble with seeing the world as illusion, flleting like dew in the morning. The Japanese poet Issa, also a Buddhist monk. wrote on the death of his daughter:

A world of dew
it is indeed,
And yet, and yet . . .

[PatH]

That's a heartbreaking haiku, Joan.

I'm obviously not ready for Buddhism.  I can't even begin to think about breaking my attachment to the illusion of this world.

[Babi]

 JoanP, from Lurgan's manipulations, I understood him to be attempting to hypnotize Kim. Apparently Lurgan was very good at that, as he says Kim is the first to have been able to resist the 'magic' he was supposed to be seeing. Lurgan would naturally be pleased, since Kim has shown
he would be equally able to resist hypnotizing by others. I don't remember now what was meant by  "I am pleased with you...no."

Beautiful picture of Simla in Winter, PAT. Definitely a place for summer
stays, tho'.  I wouldn't want to spend a winter there.

 JOANK, those three lines carry such a weight of sadness. IMO, the
attachments one forms for others is the only thing that makes the
hardships of life worthwhile.

 Kim is 16,  and Mahbub and Lurgan are arguing that Kim is ready to be set loose as an agent in the ‘chain’. 
  I notice more than once the difference in the eastern/oriental ideas of time and maturity.  Mahbub declares “When I was fifteen, I had shot my man and begot my man, Sahib."
  (It pleases and entertains me that the members of this organization include Chritians, Mohammedans, Hindus and Parthians…and they respect one another. Which of course does not prevent them from insulting one another.   

[PatH]

While Kim is in Simla, he first meets another important character, Hurree Babu, tall, massively obese, "with the gait of a bogged cow".  What do you think of him?

[PatH]

  I notice more than once the difference in the eastern/oriental ideas of time and maturity.  Mahbub declares “When I was fifteen, I had shot my man and begot my man, Sahib."

Yes, and the page before, he has presented Kim with his first pistol, saying "...please God thou shalt someday kill a man with it."

[JoanK]

The interesting thing to me about caste in "Kim" is not that it comes up, but that it comes up so little. Not only Kim but the Indian Characters seem to move between castes easily. This was an Englishman's (Kipling's) perception -- i wonder how accurate it was.

[JoanP]

An interesting point, JoanK - Kipling is an Englishman - perhaps the caste system did not affect him as it would an Indian at the time.

I understood Mahbub's comment about shooting a man as an expression of his opinion that a man is not a man until he shoots his first man...He wants Kim to grow up and leave the school.
I'm not too clear on what this "GAME of the Road" is all about - are you?  These characters, Mahbub, Lurgan, Creighton, Huree all seem to be working for a the  "Department" -  and feel the need to get Kim involved now - they need men - they need Kim.
Kim seems to understand what he is training for, so I'm just reading along waiting for the plot to unfold.
He's excused from his classes at St. Xavier - has permission to go on the Road for six months with his beloved lama.  Not sure why Creighton, Lurgan and Mahbub agreed to this - except they seem to think Kim is ready to leave the school.


I was puzzled about the FRS - I'm guessing it is the  royal scientific society in London -  Huree wishes to become a Fellow of the Royal Society of London.  He is taking "ethnological" notes, collecting notes on the folklore of the area  for his paper -  that will gain his acceptance into this Society.
I looked up "Babu" -

In British India, "babu" was a term used to describe a native Indian clerk. The word was originally used as a term of respect attached to a proper name, the equivalient of "mister", and "babuji" was used in many parts to mean "sir"; but when used alone without the suffix, it was a derogatory word signifying a semi-literate native, with a mere veneer of modern education.[1][2] In the early 20th century the term babu was frequently used to refer to bureaucrats and other government officials, especially by the Indian media; in this sense the word hints at corrupt or lazy work practices

He sure gets a lot of material watching Huneefa's ritual that is to provide Kim protection from the devils and dangers on the road.   She has "deEnglishsized" Kim - I'm wondering what color is his skin now...
Curiously,  Colonel Creighton is writing a paper too - which he hopes will earn him the same FRS initials after his name...

But first - how do you understand the "Game" that brings  everyone together - Mahbub, Creighton, Lurgan, Huree...and now Kim?  Are they working for the goverment?  Is the Department a goverment agency?

[PatH]

You're quite right, JoanP, FRS is a Fellow of the Royal Society.  This is one of the oldest scientific societies going (founded 1662) and one of the most prestigious.  From Isaac Newton on down to the present, it's members have been world class scientists, and it's a coveted honor to be a member.  Kipling points out that most people would regard going to one of their meetings as cruel and unusual punishment, but as a scientist, I totally understand this ambition in both Creighton and Hurree Babu.  Kipling means an amusing contrast here, that this is what these hard-bitten practical men want.

Thanks for the definition of Babu.  It clarifies how Kipling thinks of this character.  He is both respected and a slightly comic figure.  I remember that Kim sometimes calls him "babuji", the respectful term.  More later as we talk about him.

[PatH]

The Game: that's good to bring up here.  We talked about this a little in the pre-discussion, the great British spy operation in India, but now is a particularly good time to amplify, since the game is heating up.  Several good books were mentioned: Meyer and Brisac's "Tournament of Shadows--The Great Game and the Race for Empire in Central Asia", Hopkirk's "The Great Game", plus novels Laurie King's "The Game" and M. M. Kaye's "The Far Paviions".

Several of us have read one or more of these--Jonathan, Jackie, Frybabe, Elizabeth, and I've probably left someone out.  Hey, experts, how about telling us a little of what it was all about?

[Frybabe]

Essentially it was about Russian expansion and the British fears that the Russians could and would eventually invade India via Afghanistan and surrounds. Very little was known about the lands north of India including areas controlled by the Persians. What everybody wanted to know was if the Russians could actually invade and from where they would most likely make the attempt.

Also, both the Russians and the English had designs on opening up trade in these hard to reach and unknown areas. For all that, they needed to know the lay of the land, what the people were like, and whether they would be open to trade and friendly alliances. A very hard thing to do since the whole region was populated with little kingdoms often warring with each other.

These people were often very suspicious of strangers, especially of those not Muslim. Banditry was very common and so was raiding for slaves. In fact, many Russians were taken as slaves along the borderlands in the Caucuses. This was one of the excuses the Russians gave for their attempted invasions.

The Great Game involved spying on what the Russians (or English) were up to, surveying the lay of the land for possible invasion routes and commerce, feeling out the local populace, trying to get a treaty or trade agreement which excluded the other nation, and of course, military alliances. Anyhow, there was a lot of paranoia going around in both Russia and England about what the other was up to.

It is only in chapter 10 that I saw mention of the commissariat and only in passing. Maybe more is said further on in the book.

[JudeS]

I wonder if I am alone in feeling that the comparison of Kim to  a "Polo Pony" (as talented as they may be) is a deep insult to a young man such as Kim.  He can be a rider and not an animal used by others to win the "GAME".  I hope by the end of the book Kim will not be ridden upon and used but a rider in a game of his own choosing.

Only the Lama loves Kim and has no wish to "ride" him for his own purposes. 

Remember when playing Polo the names of the riders are constantly mentioned and looked up to.  The Ponies are tools of the game.

[Babi]

 On first appearances, I find it hard to take Hurree Babu seriously. Is he in the book for comic effect, do you think?
That was an interesting finding about the term 'babu', JOAN. It certainly puts Babu into a specific category, doesn't it?  Still, as he is part of
"the Game", that must be part of his 'cover'. So maybe there is more to Hurree than the comic role.

  Since Col. Creighton is the head spy for this region, this must be a
govenment department. India has so many peoples, many of them unhappy with the domination of the British, a network of spies would be essential. And of course, as FRYABE points out, the Russians were a constant threat on the northern border.

 A good point, JUDE. I took the comparison as simply a tribute to Kim's
agility, skill and bravery. But there is no question that his admirer's
intended to use him for their purposes.

[Babi]

I don't know why my posts are breaking up like they did above. They
are in order before posting. This happened on a previous post as well.
Any suggestions?

[PatH]

Frybabe, thanks for the nice background summary.

Jude and Babi, yes, there is a demeaning aspect to calling Kim a pony.  Both Mahbub Ali and Creighton see him as a natural for the Department, and are grooming him for this.  (Oops, another horse analogy.)  But I think Ali at least is genuinely fond of Kim too.  Also, they're old friends, have known each other for 6 years near the start of the book.  As a horse trader, the analogy would come naturally to Ali, but I must admit it seems a little tiresome to me by now.

On first appearances, I find it hard to take Hurree Babu seriously. Is he in the book for comic effect, do you think?......So maybe there is more to Hurree than the comic role.

I think Hurree Babu is definitely being played for comic effect, but he also plays a serious role.

[Frybabe]

I kind of assumed that talking about Kim in polo pony terms was a code of sorts. To casual ears it would sound like they were indeed talking about horse training. Trained spies on the other hand may or may not recognize it as code but would not know who they were talking about. The night has a thousand eyes and the walls have ears.

[JoanK]

FRYBABE: ex cellant summary. Now I understand better the emphasis on surveying and being able to recount accurately what you see in Kim's training. Also, I didn't know until you told us that some of the spying was aimed at the Russians. The Cold War, almost a century later, must seem like a natural extension of this.

JUDE: yes, the polo pony performs at the master's bidding. It is rather scary to me how the spy network gloms onto Kim, and assumes they can run his life. First, Mahbib Ali tests him with the delivery of the White Stallion note. Then he tells Creighton, the head, that Kim is a natural. Before we know it, we have four people running Kim's life by committee. Scary. If it takes this much work to breed one spy, no wonder The Game needs people.

But they do realize that this horse (sorry) isn't completely broken. If they don't give him space, he may run away.

[PatH]

I think you're right about the code, Frybabe.

[mrssherlock]

The polo pony comparison, to me, smacked of a reference in another context to a quarter horse.  These horses are used on ranches in cuttung cattle from a herd and they do all the work, the cowboy is there only to use his rope on the steer that has been cut out.  Polo ponies are used in a similar way, they run,pivot, turn, etc, so that the player can swing his mallet.  The man doesn't have time to control the horse and he must rely on his horse's agility and experience to take him to where the action is.  This places the allusion in a more positive light I believe.  Kim is to be trained but is to use his natural talents for blending in whereever he is so that he can play the game of intelligence gathering and dissemination.  He will not be on a leash but he will be trained in how to be part of the team.  Polo, of course, developed in India.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polo_pony