Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online

[JudeS]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

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Kim by Rudyard Kipling You may have read "Kim" as a young adult, but it's a whole different book for grown-ups.  Join us on January 1 to find out why "Kim" has been beloved by young and old for over 100 years.

He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.

SCHEDULE January 1-8:     Chapters 1-4 January 9-15:    Chapters  5-8 January 16-22:  Chapters 9-12 January 23-29:  Chapters 13-15 January 30-31:  Overview

DIscussion Leaders:  
JoanK & PatH

Online Texts of Kim

Project Gutenberg  ~  The Literature Network ~ Read Books Online

Questions Week 4 1."Who goes to the hills, goes to his mother". In this section, Kim and the lama are in the Himalayas. Which does Kipling describe more vividly: the crowded life of the plain, or the lonely rugged life of the hills. Which, if either, do you think will remain with you as a picture of India? 2. What are the Russian and Frenchmen up to? 3. What do you think of the Babu in action? How do the characters of each of the actors (Babu, the Russians, Kim, the lama, the hill people) contribute to the incident in the hills? 4.  All of the characters seem to fall in love with Kim, each seeing him as the person they need (chela, assistant, etc). What in Kim do you think elicits this? 5. Two women characters play important roles in this section. What role does each play? What motivates each? 6. Both Kim and the lama have mystical experiences. The lama's experience enables him to find his river. What does Kim's experience enable him to find? What is your reaction to these passages? What do you think happened? 7. When the lama explains his experience to Ali, the devout Muslim, Ali is conflicted. Why? 8. Mahbub Ali is relieved, when he sees that Kim, even after Enlightenment, can still work for the government. Is this true? There are two very different threads in Kim's life. What do you think his future will be? Will he be able to integrate them, or be forced to choose one path or the other?   Thanks for the reference to Polo.  I read the article you suggestd and then followed the further links which illustrated the various points. The most important facts that I gleaned, as far as the metaphor to our book are as follows. It takes time to produce a "MADE PONY" that loves to play the sport of polo. Polo is played on a very large field, the largest of any sport,   The game lasts about two hours but is brokren up into time periods of seven minutes each called chukkers. The rider changes horses after every chukker because of the demands put on the pony.  Therefore the player must have a stable of ponies-not a single horse. Because of the wealth needed for this extravagance polo is known as the SPORT of KINGS. The Lama does not want a stable of nimble ponies.  He wants one chela he can share his knowledge with. He is in his own way a healer and Kim has picked up this fine quality from him. I hope Kim chooses this path rather than that of spy for whoever is playing the Great Game.

[Babi]

  I am constantly being surprised that the India of elephants and long-distance walkers is also the India of trucks, industry, factories.  I wonder if Kipling was being facetious or ironic, when he spoke of men in
London developing an apparatus for “slicing into fractional millimetres the left eye of the female mosquito.”

 Another interesting bit…  Kim snaps his fingers to avert evil.  Is that the origin of finger-snapping, I wonder?   Now we use if to catch someone’s attention , ….somewhat rudely, IMO.   Or to keep time to music. 
  I found this little tidbit in ‘Urban Dictionary’: "when a black girl does something and her friend tells her not to do it, sometimes they snap their fingers while they say it." That does sound like an ‘averting evil’ gesture, doesn’t it?


  

[JoanK]

JUDES: I agree. Although to horse lovers like Mahbib Ali and Creighton, being referred to as a pony probably doesn't have as much negative connotation as we would put on it.

I'm surprised at how the Game players take for granted their right to order Kim around. I forget that this book was written for children: children take for granted that their lives are arranged by grown-ups. As a child, I was probably thrilled that Kim took his holidays for himself.

Another thing surprised me in this section. I had assumed that the office of ethnological studies was purely a front for running the spy operation. But in this section, we learn that at least Creighton and Babu are serious ethnologists, who publish many papers and have professional ambitions in the field.

[mrssherlock]

The many references to "Red Hat" intrigued me.  I wanted to see what the lama's dress was like with his Red Hat.  Tibetan Buddhism is divided into four traditions, chronologically, beginning with with Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug.  (Wikipedia doesn't explain this next part)  The three earliest are grouped into a Red Hat category and the latest, Dalai Lama's tradition, is termed Yellow Hat.  http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=1040.200;num_replies=202

[PatH]

Jackie and Jude, thanks for the further info about quarter horses and polo ponies.  I'm glad there is someone around who  knows something about horses, because I certainly don't.

Jackie, your link to lamas misfired.  Could you re-post it?  Evidently the Red Hats are in the minority, at least at this time.

[PatH]

I wonder if Kipling was being facetious or ironic, when he spoke of men in
London developing an apparatus for “slicing into fractional millimetres the left eye of the female mosquito.”

I don't know how Kipling meant it, but I was amused.  It's a good example of how easy it is to make science look silly.  But if you want to study insect eyes, you have to look at them under the microscope, which means you have to have very thin slices, which means you have to make a device like that.

[PatH]

So Kim finishes up with Lurgan Sahib and goes back to school.  We learn about his holidays,running free, spying with Mahbub Ali, going back to Lurgan.  Finally he is set free "on special appointment", and can have 6 months freedom before serious assignments start.

Next comes the horrific and amusing scene with Huneefa.  What do you think of it?

[mrssherlock]

Try this one:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Buddhism

[Frybabe]

I am up to p332 in Hopkirk's The Great Game: The Struggle for Empire in Central Asia. Pages 329-332 are about the training given to native "explorers" in just the type of training that Kim has been getting. I need to check when this all came about exactly but the book is up to about 1868 at this point. Hopkirk says that a Captain Thomas Montgomerie came up with the idea to use natives rather than Englishmen for these clandestine survey and intelligence gathering missions.

They were trained at Survey headquarters in Dehra Dun in the Himalayan foothills. This training was apparently in operation for about 20 years. They often used the disguise of a Buddhist pilgrim carrying a 100bead rosary. Eight beads were removed to facilitate the mathematics (one complete circuit of the rosary was 10,000 paces). The prayer wheels were convenient for hiding written observations as well as a compass. Other concealed items the "Pundit" carried were a thermometer, sextants, and mercury.

Apparently very little is known about the individuals who participated. Hopkirk states,  "It is in Kipling's masterpiece Kim, whose characters so clearly come from the shadowy world of Captain Montgomerie, that they have their just memorial."

[Babi]

 PatH, I can't imagine a tissue much thinner than a mosquito's eye! I
know very thin tissues are needed for microscope examination. From the book, I must suppose that an instrument capable of cutting such slices was invented about this time.

   Interesting description of the Wheel of Life….the ‘Great Wheel’.  It’s interesting  that at the core of illusion are ignorance, anger and lust.  I was thinking of other things that might have been included, but realized that they would likely  fall under one of those three.   More pertinent now, I think, is that while the original wheel was drawn simply by the Bodhisat,  over the ages it evolved into a “wonderful convention crowded with hundreds of little figures whose every line carries a meaning”.   I suspect that all the world’s religions have done something very similar with the teachings of their founder.

[JoanP]

Frybabe - thank you so much for the information on the Great Game.  I had never heard of it -  Kipling writes that "the Game never ceases day and night throughout India." 

There are many players then?  Who pays them? What do they get out of it?  They put their lives on the line.  Kim's talents are recognized by all with whom he comes in contact - they feel his services are needed - not as a "warrior"  -  but as a scribe.

Who is the enemy?

"The Great Game is a term used for the strategic rivalry and conflict between the British Empire and the Russian Empire for supremacy in Central Asia. "

If Kim's services are so badly needed at this time, why did they agree to let him spend six months on the Road with the lama?  Do you get the feeling that Kim is a spy, planted out there on the Road with the lama? Isn't Kim already playing the Game?  Is the lama part of the Game?  Huree tells Kim that the lama is a "pure agnostic."  Is Huree one to be trusted?  Kim meets a man on the road who tells Kim that there are no Gods in Benares...and that all holy men are greedy.   Now wait - is Kipling telling us something about the lama?


It is a coincidence that Kim is out on the Road with the lama - meeting the Russians

[PatH]

Babi, I can just imagine the illustrative stories accumulating over the years, becoming part of the tradition.  Kipling seems to love this kind of richness.

Frybabe, thanks for filling in on the further status of the Great Game, and Montgomerie's Survey, the model for Creighton's Ethnological Department.

More shortly.

[PatH]

There are many players then?  Who pays them? What do they get out of it?  They put their lives on the line. 

The English players, being a part of Creighton's Secret Service, would be paid with money from the British Government.  Somewhere (can't find it right now) Kipling remarks that although the Department is meanly starved for money at least they don't have to account for it in detail.

Why do the spies do it?  It has great appeal for some danger-loving types, including Kim.  When he started practicing disguise with Lurgan Sahib, "...a demon in Kim woke up and sang with joy...."

[JoanK]

This, perhaps, is what the horsetrader and the others see in Kim -- that demon that draws him to this life. Can any of you feel it? Even a little bit?

[mrssherlock]

While I can participate vicariously with Kim in his adventures, I am personally too timid for the kind of risks he must take if he plays the game to its fullest.

Is the lama an agnostic?  Not as fae as I can tell.  The philosophy bits I sort of skim since my mind doesn't work that way.  When I hear someone speak, as the man did who charged "there are no gods in Benares" and "all holy men are greedy",  he is talking about himself,  the lama is free of corruption and deceit.  But then I'm a naif who finds it hard to really believe in evil.

[Frybabe]

I am curious about Captain Thomas Montgomerie who may have been the inspiration for Creighton and/or Lurgan Sahib. (Montgomerie personally trained the native surveyor/spies.) It will take some doing. Not even Wikipedia says much about him. He was born in 1930 and died in 1878. I cannot find any info on cause of death. Montgomerie is the guy who named the second highest mountain in the Karakorums - K2.

In the meantime, I ran across this little article about one of the Pundits trained by Montgomerie. http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/sep10/articles5.htm 

[PatH]

While I can participate vicariously with Kim in his adventures, I am personally too timid for the kind of risks he must take if he plays the game to its fullest.

Me too, but we know from history that it's bread and meat to some few people.  It can backfire, though.  Look at E23; he's a mess, gulping down a handful of opium pills to get him through the crisis (or maybe feed an addiction).

[PatH]

Frybabe, you were posting while I was writing.  That's a nifty article.  Joank is the mountaineering expert among us: Joan, what's this about Montgomerie naming K2?  Nain Singh seems to have been lucky and clever enough to have survived and gotten recognition for his work, but, as the article says, "Although Nain Singh got the recognition he deserved late in life, it is difficult to imagine what drove such a man to carry out arduous and dangerous work like this, under conditions of near-impossibility, all for a starting salary of rupees twenty a month!"

[Babi]

 JoanP, I think the general perception was that 'holy men' were greedy.
We have found such in today's world, certainly. It is an area where
trusting people can more easily be imposed upon. But Kim knows that, and he has found his Lama to be an honest man. He was, in fact, astounded at the man's innocence and vulnerabiity.

  Odd what little bits will catch one’s attention.   Ex.: The description of the old Lama, “rubbing his hands and chuckling, till it pleased him to curl himself up into the sudden sleep of old age.” I had to smile, thinking how that is exactly the way of the small child, as well.

 JACKIE, I cannot doubt there is evil; it is all too blatant. But I can
always remind myself that most people are good people, doing the best
they can.

He was born in 1930 and died in 1878.

  Uh, FRYBABE, I assume that got reversed.


 

[PatH]

No, it's a typo.  Montgomerie's dates are 1830-1878.  Kipling, born in 1865, would have known about him but probably not met him.  Kipling seems to have expanded and prolonged the scope of Montgomerie's activities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_George_Montgomerie

This very brief article doesn't even mention his espionage.

[Frybabe]

Thank's for catching the typo Pat. I really think it is strange that there isn't more information about Montgomerie. Most of the other sources I have found don't add anything more than what Wikipedia has.  Maybe Hopkirk's book will make mention of him further along.

I also looked up Dehra Dun home to the Survey headquarters  and Pundit training (according to Hopkirk) hoping to find some old pictures. Dehra Dun is apparently a "college" town with numerous educational facilities that attract students from all over. Wikipedia makes no mention of the Survey in its' article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehradun

I guess my next stop is to find books relating directly to a history of the Survey. There must be one or two about. I remember reading an article years back about surveying India without the political intrigue, of course.

[PatH]

I agree with Jackie and Babi; the lama is deeply religious.  He’s a pure Buddhist, very focussed on his religious quest.

What he also is, is one of the most convincing examples of simple goodness I’ve run across in literature.  He sees no point in lying or dishonesty.  There isn't a mean bone in his body.  And he's awfully appealing.

Babi noticed him "curling up into the sudden sleep of old age".  I noticed (when Kim comes to the Temple of the Tirthankars) "The lama turned to Kim, and all the loving old soul of him looked out through his narrow eyes."

And when they are traveling toward the house of the old woman, "...he (the lama) spoke of all his wanderings up and down Hind; till Kim, who had loved him without reason, loved him for fifty good reasons."

[JoanK]

Wow! Be sure and read FRYBABE's link: (post 215). Fantastic story. truth is stranger than fiction.

Doesn't it make you furious that the British paid the Indians so little, and kept them working with promises of maybe getting paid in the future. And we continue this: the Wickepedia article doesn't even mention the "natives" names.

[JoanK]

"It was in 1856, when the British were enforcing their control over India, provoking the 1857-War-of-lndependence, that a young Lieutenant of the Royal Engineers, T.G. Montgomerie, was quietly busy in surveying the mountains of Kashmir. During this survey he saw, in the far distance, a tall and conspicuous mountain in the direction of the Karakorams and immediately named it K1 ('K' stands for Karakorams). Later on, it turned out to be the beautiful mountain of Hushe valley in Khaplu area of Baltistan, called Masherbrum by locals. He also saw another tall and dominating summit behind K1 and named it K2, which turned out to be "Chogori". The name K2, however, still stands"

http://www.everestnews.com/k2history.htm

[JoanK]

I'm still think of the experience  of Nain Singh in Frybabe's link. Sneaking into Tibet under cover (would they have killed him if they'd known?) and suveying with his feet and his prayer beads. Estimating altitude exactly by the boiling temperature of water! Amazing!

We'll see in the next section, Kim going into the hills. It's not clear (to me anyway) whether he actually got into Tibet. He could have with the lama, but probably not. There is no mention of him counting off distances with prayer beads, though.

Notice that the surveying methods the English used were exactly those that Kim was taught. I wonder whether the Tibetans would have noticed that his prayer beads had 100 and not 108 beads.

[JudeS]

I read the suggested article and found it fascinating. It pushed me to look up "pundit".  It is a Hindi word that means
 "surveyor or Chain Man or-a learned man who gives opinions in an authorative manner."

Next I looked up Mahbub Ali .  There was a famous sultan, born 1866 called Mahbub Ali Khan. By the i930's he was one of the richest men in the world!  Although he is not an essential part of our story , Kipling must have known the name and the man's reputation and named the Afghan spy after him.  Both were Muslims and followed Sharia law.

.By the way the last time I posted (first post on page 6) my name didn't appear on the side.  i hope it does this time.
In case it doesnt I'll sign off with
JudeS

[PatH]

Jude, the problem is that your post was the first one on the page.  When that happens, in order to have the heading, with pictures and questions, at the top of the page, we have to insert it in your post.  Your name is there, but it's way up at the top.  If we take the alternative of making the heading the second post, no one notices your post above it.

New pages occur at posts divisible by 40.  If you happen to notice that your post will be the 40th, you can post the word "heading" to save the spot, than write your post as the next one.  But it's hard to notice, even the DLs forget.

[Frybabe]

Did anyone notice the Lama's answer when asked where he got the money to pay for Kim's education? If I remember correctly he said the lamasery sent it without questioning why he needed it.  Raised my eyebrows a little.

[PatH]

Did anyone notice the Lama's answer when asked where he got the money to pay for Kim's education? If I remember correctly he said the lamasery sent it without questioning why he needed it.  Raised my eyebrows a little.

Frybabe, that's very important.  The lama must be a really big wheel back home.  "In my own place I have the illusion of honor.  I ask for that I need.  I am not concerned with the account.  That is for my monastery."

It also settles our earlier speculations about where the money came from.

[Babi]

  I agree with PAT; the lama must be a 'big wheel' back home.  I doubt
every priest in 'his' monastery could have requested a large sum of
money and confidently expected it to be sent without question.

  The sparseness of information about Montgomerie makes me wonder.
How many spies and spymasters do we hear a great deal about? After
a lifetime of secrecy, it might be hard to break the habit.  Safer, too,
perhaps.  The ones I've heard about have generally been those who
had already been 'busted'.

Another line I loved:  “…as freethinking a metaphysician as ever split one hair into seventy.”    We’ve all heard of splitting hairs, but that must be the most outre example I’ve ever read.


 

[JoanP]

It seems the lama was the "abbot"  in his monastery back home - money was not a problem for him, though he probably lived his life frugally as he's living as a beggar on the Grand Turk Road.  If he wanted money for Kim's education-- or for anything, he would have easy access to it.

From Frybabe's link -

In the last half of the nineteenth century, the British Survey of India made several abortive efforts to map the lands that lay beyond Tibet – but the emperor of China had closed the Tibetan border to foreigners, on pain of death. Several men of the Survey died in this attempt, until Thomas G. Montgomerie hit upon his brilliant solution – of sending in Indians, disguised as itinerant lamas to literally ‘spy out the land’1.,

I've been wondering about our lama - and his role in the Great Game.  Do you think he's a player?  I waffle back and forth.  He says he has been waiting for Kim to come to him before continuing his Search...that he would not have gone on at all if Kim did not come.  Kim is overjoyed to join him - but when he asks where they are going, lama rather enigmatically responds, " What does it matter?"
Kim loves the Great Game, feels he owes everything to his lama - but I'm not sure if the lama is part of the Game. He's a very wise man.   Right now I feel that he might very well be in on the plan to go to the Hills even before Kim attempts to talk him into it.

I feel sorry for Kim if his lama is not being up front with him.  He has no one now.  He's seventeen, no longer a child cared for by Mahbub or St. Xavier's.  The lama seems to depend on him..  Twice in this chapter we hear him speak of his loneliness -

"Meantime Kim, lonelier than ever, realizes he must look out for himself."

and then -
"I am Kim- Kim-Kim- alone in the middle of it all."
 

[elizabeth84]

Kim at 12 is truly orphaned--sort of looked after by a drug-addicted woman, no relation.  He has been helping Mahbub with his horses since six years old, and is close to him when the horse dealer is in Lahore.  So he's ready to hit the road when he finds this fascinating lama needs him as his chela--if he has no one to take care of him, he at least can take care of the lama--and that feels good.

Over the years he creates a life in which he is loved--by Mahbub and the lama and the old woman--respected by Lurgan and Creighton, Hurree and his school mates.  Kim triumphs!

[JudeS]

In answer to quuestion #5 that you presented regarding the Hindu man who passes Kim and hears him question his inner identity the man says:
" I also have lost it"....
Then he continues
"Thou wast wondering there in thy spirit what manner of thing thy soul  might be. The seizure came of a sudden. I know . Who should know but I? ..."
The  book, underneath all of its adventures, colorful characters and religion is essentially a search for identity.  That same search which each of us goes through in his or her teens and early twenties to figure out who we are and where we are going.  Those who don't go through this process never really grow up and attain a unique identity that they have forged through trying out different ways of being wether in real life or in their heads.

The other point I noted while looking closely at this page is that the speakers use "thou" and "thy' and other biblical language which puts us in a certain mood .  Kipling's use of language is one of the phenomenal points of this book. 
I rushed along carried by the adventure whereas here I stopped and noticed each word.

[PatH]

Over the years he creates a life in which he is loved--by Mahbub and the lama and the old woman--respected by Lurgan and Creighton, Hurree and his school mates.  Kim triumphs!

Yes, he does, and he's not done yet.  You've got to admire him for coming out of such a sordid life in such good shape.

[PatH]

The  book, underneath all of its adventures, colorful characters and religion is essentially a search for identity.

Yes, Jude, excellent and important point.  And Kim's search for identity has an extra complication.  He has to figure out how much of a Sahib he is.  At times he says to himself "I am a Sahib", then he turns away and goes back to thinking in Hindustani.

I'm glad you are enjoying the language.  Kipling was deliberately trying to catch the rhythm and spirit of the native speech.  I didn't notice what a good job he did until I read some of it aloud to a friend.  It's even more noticeable that way.

[PatH]

JoanP, I don't want to spoil your suspense by saying anything about the lama as part of the Great Game.  No suspense for me, since I've read the book before.

"I am Kim- Kim- Kim-" you picked up on that one too.

[PatH]

Here we are at week 4 already!  The new suggested questions are in the heading, but the old ones are still up at the top of the previous page.  Again, we don't have to rush on.  There are some good things still unsaid about section 3.  Maybe I'll take up one of them,but I think I'll eat breakfast first.

[Frybabe]

I was thinking about Kim feeling lonely. His closest "friends" are in and out of his life and are not constant companions. Not even his Lama. Could it also be, although nothing so far indicates it, that he is going through that stage where he discovers the opposite sex? He doesn't have any role models for stable family relationships does he.

[Babi]

 I really can't see the Lama as a player in 'The Game', JOAN. He is
set on finding release from the Wheel of Life. He has no interest in the
world's politics.
  I think it is entirely in keeping with the Lama's views that he says,
"What does it matter", when asked where he is going. He doesn't know
where the river is that he seeks. He is simply confidant that he is being
led to find it, no matter where which direction they take.

 I think we see more of Kipling in this statement:  “…the clean pride of departmental praise---ensnaring raise from an equal of work appreciated by fellow workers.”    Well, we’ve all experienced that pleasure, haven’t we?

Oops…. “..native police mean extortion to the native all India over.’   I don’t think I’m being unjust when I note that baksheesh,  bribes in one form or another,  have been routine and commonplace throughout Asia.  I don’t think modern governments have managed to stop that.   Can anyone correct me on that?

[mrssherlock]

Let me recommend again Laurie R King's The Game as a semi-sequel to Kim which seems to capture what-might-have-been very fittingly.