Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

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Kim by Rudyard Kipling You may have read "Kim" as a young adult, but it's a whole different book for grown-ups.  Join us on January 1 to find out why "Kim" has been beloved by young and old for over 100 years.

He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.

SCHEDULE January 1-8:     Chapters 1-4 January 9-15:    Chapters  5-8 January 16-22:  Chapters 9-12 January 23-29:  Chapters 13-15 January 30-31:  Overview

DIscussion Leaders:  
JoanK & PatH

Online Texts of Kim

Project Gutenberg  ~  The Literature Network ~ Read Books Online

Questions Week 4 1."Who goes to the hills, goes to his mother". In this section, Kim and the lama are in the Himalayas. Which does Kipling describe more vividly: the crowded life of the plain, or the lonely rugged life of the hills. Which, if either, do you think will remain with you as a picture of India? 2. What are the Russian and Frenchmen up to? 3. What do you think of the Babu in action? How do the characters of each of the actors (Babu, the Russians, Kim, the lama, the hill people) contribute to the incident in the hills? 4.  All of the characters seem to fall in love with Kim, each seeing him as the person they need (chela, assistant, etc). What in Kim do you think elicits this? 5. Two women characters play important roles in this section. What role does each play? What motivates each? 6. Both Kim and the lama have mystical experiences. The lama's experience enables him to find his river. What does Kim's experience enable him to find? What is your reaction to these passages? What do you think happened? 7. When the lama explains his experience to Ali, the devout Muslim, Ali is conflicted. Why? 8. Mahbub Ali is relieved, when he sees that Kim, even after Enlightenment, can still work for the government. Is this true? There are two very different threads in Kim's life. What do you think his future will be? Will he be able to integrate them, or be forced to choose one path or the other?

[elizabeth84]

Laurie King's The Game is waiting for me at the library in Sebastopol, California.

[elizabeth84]

The wonderful poetry before Chapters 12 and 13 describing  the grandeur of the sea--"so and no otherwise Hill-men desire their Hills"--helped me to  appreciate how much the lama loved his mountainous country.

[JoanK]

"I rushed along carried by the adventure whereas here I stopped and noticed each word."

Yes, this is one of the joys of reading a book slowly, over a month. And with others. What I go over, someone else notices, and we can savor the book slowly.

[Babi]

 I read "The Game", JACKIE, and thoroughly enjoyed it. The story takes
place 25 years later, and I found the older Kim most satisfactory.

4.  All of the characters seem to fall in love with Kim, each seeing
him as the person they need (chela, assistant, etc). What in Kim do
you think elicits this?
  My impression is simply that Kim is so full of life, so cheerful and
insouciant, that people jut naturally enjoy having him around. Then he
is intelligent, delights in a challenge, knows his way around. I'd be
very happy to find someone like that when I needed assistance.

 ELIZABETH, I loved the poem at Ch. 14 so much I shared it with a couple
of other people. 
     My brother kneels (so saith Kabir)
  To stone and brass in heathen-wise
 But in my brother’s voice I hear
    My own unanswered agonies.
  His God is as his Fates assign --
His prayer is all the world’s - and mine.
                                            The Prayer

[Frybabe]

Did anyone find chapter 13, after Kim met up with Hurree Babu again, a bit disjointed? I am rereading it. Here are some interesting highlights. Now we know approximately where they are in their journey so far.


cadastral survey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadastre


Kedarnath and Badrinath are holy towns in the Chamoli district of Uttarakhand the shrines of which are dedicated to Lord Shiva. see map
http://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/pocketmaps/road_maps/delhi-kedarnath.jpg

Here is a site for Kedarnath. A link to Badrinath is at the bottom.
http://www.char-dham.in/kedarnath.htm

[PatH]

I think we see more of Kipling in this statement:  “…the clean pride of departmental praise---ensnaring raise from an equal of work appreciated by fellow workers.”    Well, we’ve all experienced that pleasure, haven’t we?

Indeed, Babi, though perhaps we deserved it even more than we got it

The book is full of nifty phrases and one-liners.  Does anyone have any particular favorites to share?

[PatH]

Frybabe, those links help a lot.  They are only about 20 miles from the border of China, to the northwest of Nepal.  The Russians came from Leh,which is yet farther northwest.

[JudeS]

What will be Kim's future is the last question. Here is my opinion after trying to put myself in his shoes(or sandals).

The exciting job of that period was surveying.  We have been told that Kim ,at school, was outstanding in Mapmaking and math.  Surveying would give him the possibility of continued travel the possibility of meeting new people and seeing new places. He is after all  "a friend to all the world".

At the same time Kim will never forget  or completely abandon the Lama who is truly his only "true family".  As the Lama is to Kim so is Kim to the Lama.  They need each other and care for each other in a way that I can only see as familial.  They  fill a void that exists within each.

Will he also work for Mahbub Ali? That depends on how independent Kim becomes and what M.A. demands from him.  As Kim grows  and matures he will be less and less willing to be under the thumb of M.A. They may remain friends since M.A. sees and appreciates the grace and humor that Kim has within himself.

[JoanK]

That's very well thought out. Do others agree?

One quibble: the lama will probably die soon, as he predicts. How will Kim go on without him?

[Frybabe]

Is is my imagination or was the Woman of Shamlegh "coming on" to Kim?   

[JoanK]

Yep. PatH and I were talking about this. This is a story written for boys, so of course there is no sex in it -- Kim evades her. There are hints elsewhere that perhaps he isn't as pure as he appears -- but they are brief.

[JoanP]

I had to laugh as Kim tried to use the "I'm a priest" excuse for not responding to the Woman's advances.  He also feigned innocence regarding the significance of her  walnut offering...Does anyone know what it was?

I'm at the seaside these days - room overlooks the sand and the surf...The sea means so much to me - as the Hills do to the lama.  I haven't finished the book ..will read Chapter XIV on line as my book is back in Arlington.
I'll agree  with those who believe that Kim will be his own man in the future.  I think he's more clever and insightful than his friends in the Game.

[Frybabe]

I just finished the book. If you ask me, it just begs for a sequel.

[JoanK]

the Woman of Shamlegh: Shamlegh is not a real place but the Woman of Shamlegh is a real person, whom Kipling knew or knew of. He had written about her experiences in an earlier short story. Her life is given there as described in Kim: she fell in love with a Sahib, who left, saying he would come back and marry her. He never did and she became bitter, although she married three husbands.

[PatH]

The sea means so much to me - as the Hills do to the lama.

Amen, JoanP, I feel the same way about the sea, and it makes me understand "So and no otherwise, hill-men desire their hills."

[PatH]

Here's the link to Kipling's short story that's the basis for the woman of Shamlegh:

Lispeth

[Babi]

LOL, PAT. Very true. Appreciation at work is a rare experience, which
makes it all the more memorable.

 Thanks for the links, FRYBABE. Seeing excellent photographs is the
next best thing to being there.

 I was struck by Kim’s unthinking and immediate leap to attack the man who struck the Lama.  He doesn’t just admire this old man, or owe him a debt.  He loves him like a father.
  Then, I find the image of Kim washing the old Lama’s feet very moving. There is a great tenderness and humility in this act.  I cannot but think it is a good thing that he has this example of goodness in his life to balance the teachings of Creighton, Mahbub, and Lurgan.

    It would not do, I think, to downplay the intelligence of  Creighton, et
al.  Only highly intelligent and capable men survive in their line of work.
Kim definitely fits in, but he does not necessarily surpass them.

[Frybabe]

Interesting story, PatH. I also found it interesting that this man had come from Dehra Dun and that he, like the lama long ago, had received a cut his on head to the bone.

[PatH]

Gee, Frybabe, I didn't even think of that.

Notice that the Woman of Shamlegh is the only one who realizes that Kim looks like a Sahib.  She is looking at him from a different point of view than the others.

[Frybabe]

Ah yes, and I forgot about THAT PatH.

[mrssherlock]

The Woman of Shamlegh shows Kim, and the world, that he has become a man in a  fundamental way by becoming sexually mature.  She is the third example of strong womanhood, in contrast to the Victorian stereotypical woman who is little better than a child.  The first, those women who work on the roads, second is the lama's friend.  Since Kim's life revolves around men and men's affairs the introduction of these women adds balance to Kim's experiences.  Except for the lama these latter strong women are more clearly delineated than Kim's strong men.  Kipling makes clear these women's expectations, their strengths and weaknesses, their social milieu.  I find that i know little about the private lives of Mahbub, Creighton, and little more about Lurgan.  No doubt my observation is gender-based.  The Mars/Venus dyad.

[PatH]

I just finished the book. If you ask me, it just begs for a sequel.

Maybe, after everyone has finished the book and we've discussed it some, we could speculate on what a sequel might be like.

[JoanP]

Jackie, I think that PatH and JoanK's revelation that Kipling wrote this book for boys explains why we don't read too much here of the women in the lives of the major characters.  The only women we read about are those who interacted with Kim, all older women.  It was interesting that this handsome boy who has so much freedom  does not seem to have any girlfriends his own age - and he's seventeen years old.  Perhaps because he is a Sahib and does not have a family to introduce him to young ladies of good amilies? There are several instances where Kim is described as a comely lad - and yet we don't hear of  any female friends responding to those long eyelashes.  I can't imagine a future for Kim.

The mention of the book being written for boys reminded me of something else I keep forgetting to bring here.  My son requested Kipling's The Jungle Book for a Christmas present this year.  He recently became my grandson's Cub Scout den leader.  Our conversation led to the interesting fact that Kipling was a close friend of the founder of the Boy Scouts - Baden Powell.   As Powell was creating his Scout handboook, he worked closely with Kipling - Kipling's Jungle Book is the basis for the Cub Scouts -

My four boys spend many years in scouting - David, the Cub Scout den leader now - made it to the top level, advancng only when deemed "ready"  for the next rank until at 18 he was given top leadership responsibility and the rank of Eagle Scout.
There is so much in Kipling's Kim that reminds me of the steps of readiness and preparedness that my boys worked toward.

I appreciated the grueling hiking and climbing as Kim started to climb those "Hills" - sat up in amazement at the re-invigorated lama as he went higher and the going got toughter -  and then watched as he  seemed to wither and compress on the way down.  I wish he could have stayed on there until he died - the place seemed to be where he belonged.  But he hasn't found his healing River yet, has he?  I'm thinking this is something everyone probably wants to do as the end draws near - make sure that we make amends before we go...

No, I haven't finished the book yet - will try to do that now.  I've enjoyed seeing the new and improved, lean and mean Babu, waiting for Kim and the lama emerge with the all important books and papers.  Do you think the fat was part of his disguise, or did he lose it in the harrowing experience in the Hills?
I find it slow going reading the online text...
Cannot tell you how much I have appreciated everyone's comments , insights and links - and the time and enthusiasm our Discussion Leaders have put into this discussion.

[JoanK]

BABI: I don't think Kim surpasses the others in intelligence, but perhaps he has a wider view of life. He enjoys the game, but he also sees other possibilities, because of the lama and his own personality.

In the scene where Kim attacks ,I was thinking that everyone acts according to their character. Was it the Russian or the frenchman who strikes the lama? In either case, he sees some old, dirty peasant blocking what he wants, and "Puts him in his place -- he has learned nothing from the hillmen deserting him. Kim would die, rather than let anyone hurt the lama -- as you said, he loves him and will always defend him. Babu manipulates the situation for his own ends.

But what do you think of the lama. As a holy man, he has probably never been struck. He does nothing, and tries to get Kim to leave it. but later, because he felt anger, he feels that he has sinned and brought about the evil. Does this make sense?

[JoanK]

JOANP: I feel the same way about the sea. Now for the first time in my life, I live 15 minutes away, and If I don't get there at least every two weeks, I start complaining.

Monday, it had been raining for days,  but stopped in the afternoon and the sun came out. "We're going to the ocean" I told my son. It was wonderful -- the winds were blowing (I'll bet) gale force -- they were rocking my wheelchair. The waves were throwing up plumes of spray two stories high. Dan and I just clung to each other and laughed and laughed.

Come visit me -- I'll show you some beautiful beaches.

[Frybabe]

While reading Hopkirk's The Great Game... I ran across a tie in with another novel I read a while back. One of the generals who campaigned, "The White General" Skobelev, got recalled and sent to Minsk. It seems that the Tsar felt he was getting too big for his britches and had designs on the throne. While visiting a brothel, he died. Speculation had it that he was poisoned.

In Boris Akunin's The Death of Achilles his General, very popular with his soldiers, was also feared to have designs on the throne. He too died of poison after visiting a prostitute. His name was Sobolev in the novel. Akunin's Fandorin novels are set late in the Great Game era. I am now wondering if his character participated at some point since he was supposed to have been in the far east before returning to Moscow.

When next I read a Fandorin novel, I will take more notice of circumstances and the political unrest that Akunin portrays.

The last of the major Great Game plays was in 1904 according to Hopkirk. So from beginning to end The Great Game spanned a period of slightly over 100years.

[Babi]

 JACKIE, your reference to strong womanhood brings up a statement that made me curious. “He accepted the compliment calmly, as men must in lands where women make the love.” ??
What a bewildering statement to insert so off-handedly into the text.
No lead-in, no explanation. Has anyone here had the impression that in
India, 'women make the love'?

 JOANP, I suppose Kipling felt that the facts of life for teen-age boys
probably should be avoided in a book intended for youngsters. Especially
in those days. Personally, I don't for a minute believe Kim has arrived
at the age of 16 still virginal.
  Kipling's Jungle Book qs the basis for the Cub Scouts - Now that is
fascinating, JOAN. I'd never heard that, yet the Jungle Book would be
such an inspiration for developing wilderness skills.

 You're right, of course, JOANK. Kim's association with the Lama does
give him a broader outlook; other possibilities. He will be better able
to make choices when the time comes.
  On your question; for a Buddhist lama, feeling anger would be an evil
thing. But I also had a hard time understanding how he could blame
himself. One would probably need to be Buddhist to really understand.

[PatH]

Babi, I doubt that "women make the love" in India too, but although technically in India, this hill country seems to have a different culture, more like Tibet or Nepal.  The women have several husbands, and the men seem to be subordinate, so I can well believe that women take the lead.  Why Kim is familiar with this is another question.  Either he has good instincts or Kipling is being sloppy.

I agree that Kim isn't likely to be virginal.  His friendships with ladies of light reputation are mentioned, and he knows the convention of the walnuts (or almonds).

Jackie, I hadn't thought of it, but that's a good point.  The Woman of Shamlegh  and the old lady are very fully described.  The old lady is certainly a hoot, isn't she?

[JudeS]

There have been attempts to create sequels to Kim (so I read on Google).

Laurie R King in a novel set in1924 sends Sherlock Holmes her creation, Mary Russel, to India to rescue a mature Kim The book is also related to Conan Doyles "The Adventure of the Final Problem".

T. J. Murai wrote two novels: The Imperial Agent (1987) and The Last Victory (1988) following Kim as an adult.  They focus on Kim's struggle to reconcile his Indian roots with his loyalty to the British.

There are also many Sci-Fi authors who took inspiration  from the book.  They are too numerous to mention.  This fact bowled me over since early on I mentioned my feeling that the atmosphere had for me, something of another world-perhaps even Sci -Fi.  I find out that I was not alone in that feeling.

[JoanK]

JUDE: the Sci-Fi connection is interesting. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that PatH, who loves Sci Fi, loves this book.

Several of us have read Laurie King's book, The Game (it's part of a mystery series featuring Mr. and Mrs. Sherlock Holmes). But has anyone read Murai's books?

[JudeS]

Strange but true...Except for Isaac Asimov  I don't like Sci-Fi books.  However I do like good Sci-Fi Movies.  As I think back on this novel (Kim) I realize that because of Kiplings wonderful sense of time and place I was picturing  each scene in my Minds eye.  Like a movie more than a novel.
I also used to watch with my son, Dr. Who (Sci-Fi) British Television series, which I believe has run for over TWENTY FIVE years.  If anyone knows this series and remembers Tom Baker as Dr. Who, she will remember the feeling that he, like Kim , was of this world and not of it.  i.e. two forces of place, time and identity warring within oneself.

[mrssherlock]

My library's catalog has no listing for T J Murai.  Googling by author's name and the two book titles failed to find a match also.

[JudeS]

The article in Google misspelled the authors name for "The Agent" (i987).  The correct spelling is Timeri Murari.
It is available on Amazon for 0.01 cents.

The plot is as follows.  Kim is employed by the British as a secret agent.  When a mistake is made  that brings about the death of an innocent Indian , Kim sets out to rectify the mistake. The reviewer gave it high marks for colorful characters, intrigue and romance.  The story also deals with the warring loyalties within Kim and how he deals with them.

I think I may be starting a new page so I will sign off with my name....
JudeS

[Babi]

  I can't see the 'sci-fi' here at all.  The background is a country that exists, and none of the action or objects are advanced science, much
less science fiction.  The story does take us to a different time and place,
but many books do that for me.

[JoanK]

JUDES: "he, like Kim , was of this world and not of it".

Very well put for Kim!! In my opinion, it's not only the lama that gives Kim a wider outlook. Sociologists talk about people who, for some reason, are on the edges of a society. They often see more than those who are in the middle. Kim is but is not a sahib. He is part of the society around him but always knows that he is not. Such people often become observers, not completely immersed in what is going on around them.

[mrssherlock]

Joan:  Exactly.  kim's "intelligence" is real but those who see more and see differently may seem more intelligent, viz:  the one-eyed man in the country of the blind.  It is as if kim has senses that others lack, allowing him to see relationships, causes, consequences, solutions which are invisible to his companions.

[JoanP]

"It is as if Kim has senses that others lack, allowing him to see relationships, causes, consequences, solutions which are invisible to his companions"

 

Jackie, I'm reading these posts - and now yours - and get the impression that Kipling wrote Kim as a sort of superhero for boys - with powers mere mortals do not have.  One can always be confident that Kim will not be outsmarted by the shrewdest horsedealer or the most beautiful older woman who is willing to do anything for this extraordinary 17 year old.

I'm not sure Kipling has suggested that Kim is "experienced" with the opposite sex...but he does seem to have acquired wisdom beyond his years -

"How can a man follow the Way or the Great Game when he is eternally pestered by women."

To me, that's the question I found most interesting here ...can you play the Great Game of life with all the attractions on the Road and still focus and follow the Way?

[mrssherlock]

I think that a man can be pestered by (a) woman when he simply becomes aware of her.  Else why are Muslim men so intent on hiding their women behind veils?  However when Kim is so blatantly pursued by the Woman of Shamlegh he is sure to feel pestered!

[Babi]

 On a related note, look at this quote:    “Thou canst not choose freedom and go in bondage to the delight of life.”
 Isn’t it true that for many Westerners, especially the young,  the “delight of life” is considered to be freedom?  And how often has it happened that those ‘delights’  become a bondage from which it is very hard to break free?