Author Topic: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June  (Read 78834 times)

ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #80 on: May 27, 2010, 06:58:22 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.





The Return of Proserpina
Frederic, Lord Leighton, 1888-1891


Interview with A.S. Byatt on Possession Submitted by Jude S.

A Zest for Pastiche by John Mullan on Possession by AS Byatt. Week one:  Satire: (Possible spoilers within).  Submitted by Marcie






Schedule of Discussion:


June 1-6      Chapters 1-5  (102 pages)
June 7-13    Chapters 6-11 (126pp)
June 14-20  Chapters 12-17 (102pp)             
June 21-27  Chapters 18-23 (123pp)
June 28-30  Chapters 24- end  (90pp)
 







Week I: June 1-6:  Beware the Jabberwock, my son!


1. John Mullan, writing in the Guardian on Possession, refers to Possession  as a "zest for 'pastiche.'"

Pastiche is:

Quote
A French word for a parody or literary imitation. Perhaps for humorous or satirical purposes, perhaps as a mere literary exercise or jeu d'espirit, perhaps in all seriousness, a writer imitates the style or technique of some recognized writer or work...(http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/pastiche.html.

Quote
pas.tiche n [F, fr. It pasticcio] (1878) 1: a literary, artistic, musical, or architectural work that imitates the style of previous work; also: such stylistic imitation 2: a musical, literary, or artistic composition made up of selections from different works: potpourri b: hodgepodge -- pas.ti.cheur n

Would you agree our first section here fits this  description? Why or why not?

2. What are some of the meanings or purposes served by the first two poems by Hawthorne and Robert Browning that preface the book?


3.  In all the swirl of the first five chapters, what ONE thing struck you the most and why?

4.. What did you like most about the first 5 chapters? What did you most dislike?

5.  What are your initial impressions of each of the characters that have been introduced?

6. Do you see any significance in the names of the characters?

7.  The book is full of literary and classical allusions. The vocabulary alone is staggering. What are:

----- Ragnarok (62)
----- Habitat anglepoise (19)
-----girning (66)
-----glaucous basin (63)
-----fin de siecle bindweed (86)
-----Gadarene swine (60)
-----blind mouldiwarp (52)

8. What parallels do you see between the main characters and the authors they study?

9. There are three female characters of myth and legend referred to over and over in these beginning pages. What part does each one play in the story, what are their backgrounds? Why are they introduced?

---- Proserpina
-----The Sibyl of Cumae ("I crave to die.")
-----Melusina

10. "Well," she said, "the dates fit. You would make u p a whole story. On no real evidence. It would change all sorts of things."----what is the significance of this remark? What might it also pertain to?

11. Do you see a difference in the style of the poems of Randolph Ash and Christabel LaMotte?





Discussion Leaders: ginny & Marcie




ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #81 on: May 27, 2010, 06:59:56 AM »
Sorry Claire, maybe next time.

Jeh! An English teacher, something we sorely need here, I do hope, even tho you don't plan to reread it you'll chime in. You read it twice! You did that because you loved it or because you wanted to see if you missed any of the....allusions or?

 I will confess that my first thought upon seeing it was  I wish we had Deems, (for those of you who did not know Deems, she was a Professor of English at the US Naval Academy and one of our Books Discussion Leaders here until her sudden and untimely death this past February)  still with us. However, lacking her perspectives, we've got  our readers  from all over the world, (this discussion is another International one), and Deems would be the first to say not too much gets past us: we have been doing this since 1996.  Will Byatt be the one mountain we can't climb?

We're about to find out. I know since Jeh is here she won't let us (me) rave too far off base. Because, I have to tell you, I'm WAY out there on this one. WAY WAY way out there.

In 1996 we would operate like a book club in your living room. We'd all nominate a book for the next read, and if your particular choice did not win, you'd gamely read on through, grumbling, perhaps, but with a good spirit,  whatever was chosen,  and hope for the next time. We'd keep repeating the mantra that you get something out of every book and every discussion no matter what it is and that we could discuss the telephone book if we needed to.

Here we are, literally  hundreds (is it 500, 600)  of books discussed  later, some of them seeming less than a telephone book, we've got ourselves a challenge, and one not particularly flattering to the world of literary theory, is it?

  But MEANWHILE in 1996  you'd get to read something that probably you'd never have even looked it by yourself or thought of. This, to me, is one of those books, so the tradition holds, even after all these years.

And some of those books made for the most memorable experiences in discussing a book, ever!

So welcome, All! You are welcome whether not you managed to make a bit of sense out of it, and on June 1 you'll find an extremely long (we hope pretty and informative as well) heading filled with questions to spark your comments on the first 5 chapters. You may have read the book 30 times, we'll confine our comments the first week to the first 5 chapters...and anybody who has read them knows you could talk on them one month and not scratch the surface.....OR you can fling out on a tangent of your own and we hope you do.

Everyone is welcome, the more the merrier!




bellemere

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2010, 01:28:10 PM »
I will be playing catchup.  Still plowing thorugh Wolf Hall; gotta see that nasty Anne get her comeuppance.  I really love it but can't wait to get started on Possession.  I, too, read it long ago.  I discovered my hard copy while going throug my books looking for discards for the library sale.  Not marked up; and I scarcely remember anything except loving it, as soon as Anne Boleyn and Thomas More get what is coming to them, I 'll get started.  My week at Cape
Cod is coming up with no internet access except the library's wifi, probably a good thing to keep me concentrated. 
It's great to see so many readers interested.

bellamarie

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2010, 08:19:34 PM »
I have read all your posts and I dare say I am intrigued and most excited to read this book  with all of you.  I listened to the interview and loved the voice of A. S. Byatt, she sure did seem to have a bit of fun writing this book.  I most loved how she said the anticipation makes it more interesting.  Indeed the anticipation to read and discuss this book has me on the edge of my seat.  I have never read Byatt before, so once again, I will be getting introduced to yet a  new author through SeniorLearn.  Ginny, you and I have shared a few books together, and so I truly can't wait to begin this one.  I did click the amazon button below and ordered the book for a grand total of $4.00 including the shipping.  WOW!  Can't beat that price.  Sadly, it may take a week or so to receive it, so I may see if my library has it so I may begin with all of you.  If not I will follow along and enjoy all your posts.  Hope you all have a happy Memorial Day and let us not forget to take a moment out of our festivities to pay tribute to the fallen soldiers (men and women) who have so bravely given their lives, to give us our freedom to live in this great country, the United States of America.  No matter what country you may live in, we can all agree a life given, to protect our country, is worth honoring.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #84 on: May 31, 2010, 11:11:07 AM »
Welcome,  Bellamarie, we are very glad to have you here, this is a great group and I also can't wait to begin. I essentially want to see what you all have to SAY!

Welcome!

ginny

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Beware the Jabberwock: Welcome!
« Reply #85 on: May 31, 2010, 02:36:59 PM »

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought-
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe….

Jabberwocky by Lewis Carroll,


That's exactly how I felt when I read the first 50 pages!!

 We have some pretty incredible weather here, have lost the phone lines  and are not sure how long the power will be on, so this is for tomorrow, a bit early, but to get us off to a great start in the morning.

The topics in the heading are there to hopefully spark interest, as said above, but you can talk on anything in the first 5 chapters and we hope you do. What struck YOU?

Welcome!

I'll tell you what my experience was and I hope you'll all share yours with this book.

I guess I've been pouring over too many  ancient texts lately where you have to carefully note and  study every ending and nuance,  and carefully look at words, I was dazzled by this thing, could not understand where she was going,  and kept looking for what was under what I was reading or trying to make sense of something.

Several things brought me up short, so I'll answer Question #3 (3.  In all the swirl of the first five chapters, what ONE thing struck you the most and why?
) first.


Two things: The names! I kept stopping at the names.

Roland, the Chanson de Roland then, we're having?

Blackadder.  I mean really.

Cropper, so close to Crapper. But it was this innocuous passage which finally did the deed:


Quote
Mortimer Cropper's graduate students were made to transcribe passages-usually from Randolph Henry Ash-transcribe again their own transcriptions, type them up, and then scan them for errors with a severe  editorial eye. There was never an error-free text, Cropper said. He kept up this humbling exercise, even in the days of effortless photocopying.

Hogwash.

The entire thing, or one major aspect of the thing, in my opinion,  is an elaborate joke. Maybe "joke"  is too strong a word? It's an elaborate framework poking fun. In the passage above, she  is poking fun at textual inaccuracy in transcription, which Cropper's method is ironically  doomed to produce. She (the author) is making fun of literary scholars here. And if we didn't catch that,  we'd surely have caught this one from the heading:

10. "Well," she said, "the dates fit. You would make up a whole story. On no real evidence. It would change all sorts of things."


We have here, as part of the creative bomb she's exploded, a joke (can't think of a better word),  a satire? on academia and specifically the English Lit people, in my opinion, (and she should know, she's taught English Lit at college, and in my opinion is skewering it here) but what's YOURS?

The floor is now open for your thoughts! I can't wait to hear them!! What's meant by the constant references to Proserpina and the other classical allusions? What did YOU see coming out of the mist?

We don't seek consensus, let's discuss!

Welcome, Everybody!

Mippy

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2010, 10:07:51 AM »
Good morning, everyone!   I'm not very confident in analysis of literature, but love to look up links, so here're a few, staying away from wiki-links, as Ginny has suggested in Latin:
                            
on  Ragnarok (pages 12 & 162) from the link on this book's annotations:
www.sjsu.edu/depts/jwss/mesher/annotations/possession

In Norse mythology, the final battle between the gods, the Aesir led by their warrior-king Odin, and the forces of evil. Although the gods will be destroyed in the battle, their deaths will lead to rebirth in the form of a new golden age civilization. In the novel, Ash has written a poem by that title.  
                          
on Proserpina:
http://www.roman-colosseum.info/roman-gods/myths-about-the-roman-goddess-proserpina.htm

on Hercules/Herakles  from the site on annotationsl:
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/jwss/mesher/annotations/possession/fr-annot.html

Herakles: (Heracles, Hercules) Mythic Greek hero, the son of Zeus and the mortal woman Alcemene. In retribution for killing his two sons and the two sons of his nephew Iolaus in a fit of madness imposed upon him by the goddess Hera, Heracles was ordered by the Oracle at Delphi to go and perform twelve labors for King Eurystheus of Tiryns. In return for performing these labors, Heracles would be purged of his blood-guilt for the murders and made immortal. The eleventh labor imposed upon him by Eurystheus was to fetch the apples of the Hesperides. After an adventurous journey, Heracles discovered the grove, killed the guardian serpent Ladon, and returned to Eurystheus with the fruit. However, in an alternative telling, Heracles traveled to the rim of the world where he found the titan Atlas holding the vault of the sky upon his shoulders. Heracles convinced Atlas to retrieve the apples for him while he temporarily supported the sky upon his own shoulders. Upon returning with the fruit, however, Atlas refused to resume the sky-burden. Heracles then begged Atlas to hold the sky, just for a moment, so that he could place a pad upon his own head to lessen the pain caused by the sky's weight. Of course, as soon as the titan reshouldered the sky Heracles left him.
This tale may be the source for Ash's use of the word "tricksy" in describing Heracles.
quot libros, quam breve tempus

JoanR

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #87 on: June 01, 2010, 12:29:07 PM »
Good morning!!  What a great book for discussion!!!

I'll be back later but I wanted to put in this bit of information on the Gadarene swine in answer to part 0f question #7:

 
"The Gadarene Swine
In all exorcisms except one, Jesus simply expelled the demons. But at Gadara (or Gerasa or Gergesa), Jesus sent the demons into a herd of pigs. Matthew 8.30-32 (cf. Mark 5.11-13 and Luke 8.32-33) wrote:
And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Jesus performed this miracle in pagan territory, the Decapolis.

There are passages from Greek and Latin literature in which petitioners beg the gods to transfer an evil from one place to another, or from one person to another. It's almost as if the amount of evil in the world is constant, and evil cannot be destroyed but can only change location."

Rather tough on the poor innocent swine, I think!

Jonathan

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #88 on: June 01, 2010, 05:48:05 PM »
Just checking in. And I feel like I'm in deep water amongst all these scholars and poets. But I'll tag along for the story line. And there's always Val for company. We're promised a romance, a la the latitude allowed by Hawthorne's definition (wherever the heart may lead one) but surely it won't be Roland and Val. They've reached a dead end in their relationship,by the looks of it. Still, I like her point of view.

'I made an amazing discovery today,' he told her.

'I'm sorry, Val, I'm sorry to bore you. It does look interesting.'

'If you think what I do is so unimportant....'


And each time he's greeted with a variation of  'You do what turns you on.' And speaks flippantly of Roland's work environment as the Ashram. Then again, what a dinner she serves him: grillled marinated lamb, ratatouille and hot Greek bread. Compare that to the gooseberry jam and the cucumber sandwiches offered by Ellen Ash and Christobel respectively.

By an amazing coincidence last night, a local TV channel  ran the movie POSSESSION. Very enjoyable. The book and the movie complement each other. The movie is both more and less than the book. The characters are just as I imagine them. But Val is missing. Alas.

ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2010, 06:06:41 PM »
We're UNDERWAY!! YAHOO! I hope I haven't scared everybody off.

I haven't seen the movie, I must get it on Netflix. It's less and more? Wow. No Val?

Jonathan, I did NOT notice that she spoke flippantly,  maybe she's just a good cook. I hope that intentions are not judged by cooking, he'd have a hard time here. hahahaa

So for you the plot line about the promised   romance is the thing that stands out...or the hope of the romance, I need to go back and read that Hawthorne again. Val seems...to feel unappreciated, I wonder is she justified?

There are so many things happening and so many plot lines it's really hard for me to tie them all together. Thing is very complicated.

It's hard to know  where to jump in. What did you all think of the fairy stories? Are THEY symbolic or allegorical or why are they there at all?


ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2010, 06:10:03 PM »
Mippy, thank you for the on information on Hercules and   Ragnarok:
Quote
(pages 12 & 162) from the link on this book's annotations:
www.sjsu.edu/depts/jwss/mesher/annotations/possession

In Norse mythology, the final battle between the gods, the Aesir led by their warrior-king Odin, and the forces of evil. Although the gods will be destroyed in the battle, their deaths will lead to rebirth in the form of a new golden age civilization. In the novel, Ash has written a poem by that title.

See now this is the part where I lack a winnow. Is this important? Ash wrote a poem by that title, do we assume this is important to the plot?

I feel like one of those people on Hoarders, should we keep this? Should we throw this out? Who will  light the way here (I couldn't resist with the golden apples and all).

But why are these two things HERE, any idea, anybody?


ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #91 on: June 01, 2010, 06:24:28 PM »
And here's Joan with the Gaderene swine! Thank you for that.

Quote
There are passages from Greek and Latin literature in which petitioners beg the gods to transfer an evil from one place to another, or from one person to another. It's almost as if the amount of evil in the world is constant, and evil cannot be destroyed but can only change location."


Wow. So we have evil as a recurrent thread? I wonder how many recurrent threads there are.

The Gaderene swine reference is on page 60, in reference to the Grimm tale of the hedgehog (is that true?)  And hey, was Frankenstein really the "product of Mary Shelley's labour pains and horror of birth?"

Apparently Christabel (among other things a poem by Coleridge) wrote a fable about a hedgehog which became a swineherd who "multiplies its pigs  on forest acorns--and ends up with a lot of triumphant slaughter and roast  pork and crackling. Hard for modern children to stomach who grieve for the Gaderene swine. Christabel makes it into a force of nature. It likes winning, against the odds."

Well? And this means for the plot that?

Oh my goodness, I just looked up Christabel on (gasp!) wikipedia, take a look at this:

Christabel on Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christabel_%28poem%29

Check it out:


Quote
The old Bard and the youth at length arrive, and therefore she can no longer personate the character of Geraldine, the daughter of Lord Roland de Vaux, but changes her appearance to that of the accepted, though absent, lover of Christabel. Now ensues a courtship most distressing to Christabel, who feels--she knows not why--great disgust for her once favored knight.


My goodness now there's a reference for you.

This kind of thing, all these references, just blow my mind.

Let me go back to my original first question, now removed from the heading and ask:

What, in your opinion, is this book ABOUT?
I ask because I truly don't know.

ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2010, 07:55:12 PM »
hahaha, I love this, I'm so confused I even got belle mere and bella marie confused, you both posted one after the other!

Welcome bellemere also, I did not mean to miss you.

What a super group assembled here, NOW tell us what you think!!


marcie

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2010, 02:20:07 AM »
What a great way to start the discussion of this book that combines so many genres and subplots. I'm excited by everyone's thoughts and eager to learn from each of you.

In re-reading the poems by Hawthorne and Robert Browning that preface the book I'm struck by the outright statements that we're going to be lied to. I'm thinking (hoping?) that the lies are likely ones of differences in perspective (or absence of perspective), rather that outright lies. From the Robert Browning poem:
"Each states the law and fact and face o' the thing
Just as he'd have them, finds what he thinks fit,
Is blind to what missuits him, just records
What makes his case out, quite ignores the rest."

Are all of the characters going to mislead and/or be misled in some ways?

Right from the first, there is also a mystery--a book and critical notes and letters that were lost are found. Missing pieces need to be pieced together. Things that were unseen will be seen.

I'm fully intrigued and enthusiastic to go on this quest.


salan

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2010, 06:28:24 AM »
Duh!  I have trudged through page 102.  I got tired of looking up people and references that my poor addled brain no longer remembers.  So far, the book seems like a bunch of intellectual "gobbledy gook" to me.  Maybe this is not the book for me at this particular stage in my life.  My brain feels very "addle-pated"!!  However, that being said, & since so many of you are taken with this book, I will stoically continue on for a while.  Am I the only dim-witted reader in this discussion group????
Sally

kidsal

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2010, 06:47:59 AM »
Vocabulary:
girning - Scottish  - to complain in a whining voice

fin de ciecle bindweed -end of the century bindweed -- I know the bindweed in my garden is almost impossible to get rid of because of its very deep roots.

habitat anglepoise -- I read William Stegner's Angle of Repose this winter.  In nature the natural angle the flour takes when a bowl of flour is poured on a table.  In Stegner's novel, the natural angle a life takes -- settles into.  

From Catherine Burgass' Reader's guide to Possession -- believes Ash's poetry based on Robert Browning and some Tennyson; Christabel's based on Emily Dickinson and Christina Rossetti

Epigram at beginning of Ch 1, fruit stolen - letters stolen by "tricksy hero"


ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2010, 07:03:52 AM »
Sally: I got tired of looking up people and references that my poor addled brain no longer remembers.  So far, the book seems like a bunch of intellectual "gobbledy gook" to me.  Maybe this is not the book for me at this particular stage in my life.  My brain feels very "addle-pated"!!  However, that being said, & since so many of you are taken with this book, I will stoically continue on for a while.  Am I the only dim-witted reader in this discussion group?

No. Move over, let's put a Dim Witted Bench over here in the corner? We can sit here till the light of illumination falls. You are absolutely right, billions of references, and intellectual gobbledy gook, to what end, I wonder.  I wonder, personally, if this exuberance of reference is itself a parody of literary criticism, that is....too too. OR could they all support the plot?  OR has she cobbled every reference known to man on every subject, say evil, and looked up every myth and legend and thrown them in too?

You've got to have something to focus on when you read a book, to relate to. We've got a mystery as Marcie says, a hint of possible romance as Jonathan says,  and a quest. Roland is going on a quest. I guess I better look up the Chanson de Roland again.

 I love some bits of the book. For instance the visit to Sir George's house. Starting on page 83.."They drove in convoy behind the great house." That whole thing was good. Good characters. Are there any other good characters whom we can relate to? If so, who are they, and why?

I absolutely love that segment  and they find a treasure. Too pat?  After all these years?

Then there's the parallel romances? Randolph Ash (made up author) and Christabel (made up author, whose name may be synonymous with ...well what IS she known for in literature) who writes fabulous fairy tales. But most of the  Grimm tales were not for children, were they? They were little, what, allegories?

Are hers? Are his poems?

And then there's the modern romance paralleling the story with Roland and...Val? Maud? Leonora? And the curious sudden interjection of seeing the Baileys through different eyes.

Marcie what a  stunning point, I had skipped over the Hawthorne and Browning introductions: in re-reading the poems by Hawthorne and Robert Browning that preface the book I'm struck by the outright statements that we're going to be lied to. I'm thinking (hoping?) that the lies are likely ones of differences in perspective (or absence of perspective), rather that outright lies.

We're going to be lied to.  And we're already seeing the differences in perspective on page 84 for starters. But the question of the Reliable Narrator always comes up.

Who IS the narrator here? Whose perspective do we have? Who, I wonder, might be not telling the truth or seeing things as they really are, what a super point!

If any group of readers can crack this case, despite the blizzard of distractions and diversions...are all these illusions and allusions that Sally has worn out the dictionary looking up (along with the rest of us) simply that? Allusions?

Oh we'll get to the bottom of this one, you betcha. We may not agree at the end but we'll get there.

What did you think of Roland's taking the letters from the library?

Penny (or even a sovereign) for your thoughts. :)

Are they like furbelows (whatever those are) just stuck on there, or are they important to the plot?

She did not HAVE to put all that in, did she? But she did. In this she's a lot like her sister Margaret Drabble, do those of you who have read Drabble agree or disagree? Lots and lots of references.



ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2010, 07:06:47 AM »
Sally!! (Kidsal) we were posting together. Thank you for looking  up all those references and/ or explaining them. So the made up authors Ash and LaMotte are based on Robert Browning and some Tennyson; Christabel's based on Emily Dickinson and Christina Rossetti. Thank you for that.

Why not just use them? Why make up an author?


What do you make of this, Kidsal?

Gumtree

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2010, 12:53:08 PM »
After reading the posts my head is in a whirl - who knows where to start with this book. I'll just begin with what I liked best about the first five chapters - What's not to like -I liked almost everything but above all the sheer fun of it ...

 All those allusions that rang bells in my mind - Some I know about, some have been half forgotten and some I never knew - but what fun to rediscover them again and try to puzzle out what meaning, if any,  they have in relation to the story - or is Byatt just playing around or showing off.

The plot lines beginning and going off in all directions - One just settles down in one storyline and suddenly there's eg. this fairy story The Glass Coffin or a verse of poetry thrust at us and apparently blocking the development - well, maybe not.

The multiple narrators with their different voices and the resulting multiple points of view - 

The naming of the characters - Ginny has cited Roland - what about Fergus which means manly strength and we're told he's a successful? ladies man - and then there's Maud  -  Tennyson's  Maud  has an unnamed lover - is that significant and indeed does Maud Bailey have one.  The name Cropper made me think of 'come a cropper' meaning to have a fall - or to come to a sticky end though I see Ginny gives it different connotations.

I think the book is fun - I think it's a send-up of literary academe and maybe by extension other disciplines as well.  I'm not going to agonise over what I don't understand just yet. There's another 400 pages for all to be revealed.


Frankenstein, the product of Mary Shelley's labour pains and horror of birth

 Mary Shelley had several children most of whom died as infants. When writing Frankenstein she had given birth to a premature child which subsequently died. Percy took fright at the sight of the child and absconded to have an affair with Mary's half sister. So perhaps it was Percy who had the horror of birth and Byatt is simply being inventive - twisting known facts or 'lying' to us.  On the other hand, Mary Shelley's mother Mary Wollstonecraft, she of the radical views, died soon after her daughter, Mary was born and Mary herself nearly died after a miscarriage - so it is certainly possible for her to have had fears of the horrors that awaited a pregnant lady in the 19th century. Some of those fears and horrors are still with us today.



 
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

kidsal

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2010, 01:24:48 PM »
Browning and Dickinson (two lovers) are used as the poems of another two lovers -- the background for the  poems of Ash and Christabel -- another set of poets as lovers.

Watched the movie last night -- makes more sense of the book for me --straightens out the characters.  Netflix

Jonathan

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2010, 02:25:24 PM »
I see a metaphor in 'Cropper'. Here's a guy reaping the rich harvest of Ash memorabilia. Locks of hair, toothpicks, watches, not to mention anything and everything ever written by his hero R. H. Ash. He is the authority on Ash correspondence. He has written an Ash biography: The Great Ventriloquist, I believe it is. Ash gave a voice to people 'at the edge'. Lazaras, of biblical fame, for example, who never was given a chance to tell his story. Then the neighbor of Bunyan's Pilgrim. And a third I can't remember. Was it the Sybil? No, that one he would have left to Christabel. If she ever gets finished with Melusine.

That these two poets should meet!!! One interested in Norse mythology. The other in Grimm fairy tales. It was love at first sight, judging by the scraps of paper discoverd by Roland in the Vico book. What a surprise. Roland had been looking for the sources of  Ash's things on Proserpine.

It could be imaginary looking for a true narrator in POSSESSION. We are, thanks to the author, finding evidence in primary sources, the letters, journals, poems and paintings, (Glover's) scattered throughout the book. Her paintings have disappeared, but the woodcuts are hers, I believe.

We're embarking on a paper trail, par excellence!

Jonathan

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2010, 02:46:40 PM »
'what about Fergus which means manly strength and we're told he's a successful? ladies man'

Good question, gum.

There is indeed a romance of sorts between him and Maud. This one is on the edge. Maud freezes the blood in my veins, Fergus tells Roland. I hate him, Maud tells Roland. Professional interests bring these people together, it seems.

JoanR

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #102 on: June 02, 2010, 05:12:48 PM »
There's another angle to Cropper - if one comes a cropper, he falls off his horse!  It's come to mean suffering a misfortune.  Let's wish that on Cropper, shall we?

And how about Maud living in Tennyson Tower?  She with the long blonde tresses tied up in a kerchief!  Will she let them down for our Roland?

Then too there is "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came" by Browning.  Our Roland does come to the tower.

Just swimming in allusions but that's so much fun - have to be careful not to lose sight of the story.  When I read it years ago, I just zipped through it for the story which is a good one, not bothering to peek behind the words.  Now I have the luxury of looking past the foliage into a marvelous world of myth and poetry.

bellamarie

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #103 on: June 02, 2010, 07:37:06 PM »
I'm so excited, I ordered the book from Amazon and it said it has shipped but it could be as long as June 22nd, so I callled my local library and ALAS!  I have book in hand.  Mind you I can't wait to get the one I purchased because I am a highlighter and side bar junkie, but at least I can now begin reading and putting in my two cents worth.  So be back soon. 

Ginny, yes I am bellamarie ("beautiful marie" as my Italian father noted when he named me).  You will do just fine keeping bellemere and me straight, if not we shall help you. So I'm off to begin the mystery and love story, be back shortly.  Til then...........Ciao!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2010, 07:57:35 PM »
Golly I knew this group would be a big help in understanding this thing. How glad I am to read your posts!!

Gum, these seem to hit the nail on the head:

but what fun to rediscover them again and try to puzzle out what meaning, if any,  they have in relation to the story - or is Byatt just playing around or showing off.


I'm beginning to wonder, and as you say, we don't have to decide now, but IF all this stuff is somehow meaningful, she's really pulled it off.

But meaningful to whom?

Look at Joan R with Childe Roland. I spent a good part of today trying to fit the Chanson de Roland (1100's) which I was forced to read in French in school INTO this story (much like what a couple of the characters suggest one do in literary theory actually) and coming up short. Does not seem to fit. I'll look up Childe Roland (why do I always think Childe Harold?)

And then Gum said One just settles down in one storyline and suddenly there's eg. this fairy story  The Glass Coffin or a verse of poetry thrust at us and apparently blocking the development - well, maybe not.

Once again nailed it.

Those of you reading for the plot, what IS the plot? The mystery of...what is mysterious about Ash and LaMotte? Whether or not they actually were an item, which would be a bombshell in the academic world?

What is the plot?

so it is certainly possible for her to have had fears of the horrors that awaited a pregnant lady in the 19th century.  It sure is, that was fascinating on Mary Shelley, but is there no documented proof and thus we're doing the inventing thing, ourselves, in topic 10?

Is Byatt FORCING us to do this type of spurious analysis? I mean the constant references to pomegranates alone!

The plot lines beginning and going off in all directions - One just settles down in one storyline and suddenly there's eg. this fairy story  The Glass Coffin or a verse of poetry thrust at us and apparently blocking the development - well, maybe not.

Don't you wonder? What did you make of the Glass Coffin, Everybody? Can you figure out why it's in there?



ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2010, 08:12:24 PM »
Joan with the Maud in Tennyson Tower and Childe Roland whom I had completely forgotten! hahaha Good ones!


Just swimming in allusions but that's so much fun - have to be careful not to lose sight of the story.  When I read it years ago, I just zipped through it for the story which is a good one, not bothering to peek behind the words.  Now I have the luxury of looking past the foliage into a marvelous world of myth and poetry.


What IS the story so far? I'm stuck in the allusions, and how they may or may not even pertain to what we're reading and what of the poems variously by Ash and LaMotte and the fairy stories?

We have Roland as the protagonist, do we all agree on that? And he's on a quest. And in the progress of this quest he seems to meet several interesting women, and the quest is to...and the mystery is that.....Marcie says there are possible missing letters...There's a subplot about Ash who like Roland (is this true?) was married, and another one with Fergus as Jonathan points out, so that's three couples.


I don't want to get tricked again, having obsessed and harped on that stupid golden Christmas tree of Margaret Drabbles which, I found upon discussing it the second time, that it had no bearing on anything! hahahaa


______________

Kidsal I've ordered the movie from Netflix but am determined to figure this out myself, but I'm not averse to YOUR casting some light on it here based on the movie?  hahahaa Almost got the wrong one, there are two Possessions.

I was just about to ask if anybody had any manual for this book, what else does  Catherine Burgass' Reader's guide to Possession say? Who is she?

________________


Jonathan, what an intriguing premise: It could be imaginary looking for a true narrator in POSSESSION. We are, thanks to the author, finding evidence in primary sources, the letters, journals, poems and paintings, (Glover's) scattered throughout the book. Her paintings have disappeared, but the woodcuts are hers, I believe.

We're embarking on a paper trail, par excellence!


Gosh!!  Stunning! And a blizzard of possible red herrings?

Now on this one:

 He is the authority on Ash correspondence. He has written an Ash biography: The Great Ventriloquist, I believe it is. Ash gave a voice to people 'at the edge'. Lazaras, of biblical fame, for example, who never was given a chance to tell his story.

Lazarus? OH boy, I see I have to reread parts of this. I thought his story WAS coming back to life, but I'll reread both of them again. That of course would parallel Proserpina, wouldn't it?

Not too sure about the Sibyl not having a voice, she had one till she made the wrong choice. That may be true of a lot of people tho.

_________________________________

Maybe we should ask, which, of the 1000000000 allusions made in this book so far is the one YOU think is the most meaningful? The  real one? The one not the lie or the diversion? The one which is the true prize?

jeh

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2010, 10:09:47 PM »
I have seen the movie and was disappointed.  It seemed to be a vehicle for Gwynneth Paltrow and although I like her work, I think the character of Roland was weakened too much.  He is definitely the protagonist.  The investigation into the letter and what he finds out about Ash is his project although others are certainly interested and greedy for academic glory.   Roland is constantly underestimated which is a shame as he is a sound scholar and kind man, but then I like kind men.

Gum, I don`t think that it is a send up of academic life; only a send up of politics in the academic world.  Don`t forget that Byatt is a professor and academic herself--- still is in fact

Ginny, I reread Possession because I enjoyed the story so much.  I haven`t got around to investigating the allusions too thoroughly -- maybe when I retire.  One thing I did find really fascinating was/is how convincing Byatt is in creating the fictitious poets Ash and Lamotte and samples of their works.  She almost had me convinced that I was ignorant of a whole school of Victorian literature which I have studied in the distant past at the post graduate level.  In other words she almost had me fooled.

At first I thought all of you were getting too deeply into the names but upon thought I think there is a link between Browning`s "Childe Rowland" and Byatt`s Roland who is rather quixotic in a very twentieth century (as I recall, and my memory is not accurate about dates, this was a Booker winner in the 90s) feminist way.  And I would definitely make the association of Cropper with "crapper".   I won`t say anything about Fergus at this stage, it would be a spoiler, but what about Val the student with a perfectly good degree and inquiring mind that doesn`t quite make it in the academic world?

kidsal

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #107 on: June 03, 2010, 06:09:38 AM »
Catherine Burgass, author of the Reader's Guide, is a lecturer in 20th Century literature at the University of Liverpool.  She is the author of Challenging Theory, and is currently working on a study of domesticity in contemporary fiction.  This guide is one of a series of reader's guides.  www.continuumbooks.com

A few notes I took -- remembering I am not well versed in literature.  Possession -- 1) possessive love - contrary impulse > self preservation; 2) superficial possession of things; (3) supernatural possession by ghosts; (4)  intellectual possession.

Themes:  1) Love and romance - Roland/Val:Maude/Fergus; Ash/LaMotte
2)  Biography, relationship between literary subject and biographer.  Hunters:  Cropper, Fergus, Leonora and Sympathizers:  Roland, Maud, Nest????
3)  Victorian/Modern Biography
4)  Problem of Knowledge -- unable to get to truth
5)  Parallel plots - uses flashback, parallel scenes, linking imagery.
6)  Ventriloquism - Possession about ventriloquism - love for dead, pressence of voices, ghosts or spirits.  Speaking through characters or narrator.  Pastiche - medly of styles or work in style of well known author. 



kidsal

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #108 on: June 03, 2010, 06:29:20 AM »
Poems - read by character or at head of chapters.  They are clues to state of mind or events.  Example:  Garden of Proserpina, Chapter 1.  Fruit stolen by Heracles the "tricksy hero" is Roland stealing letter.  
Misinterpretation - "Spilt Milk"
Ch 7:  Men's martyrdom <> private decay of women's lives.  Beatrice/Ash

"How to read the novel:  Byatt is playing intellectual games in a novel stuffed with literary allusion.  Maud is connected with Tennyson's Maud - example repeated quotation "icily, regular, splendidly null.  Ch 15:  Christabel mentions George Herbert, 17 Century Metaphysical poet and quotes in the original from Goethe's Faust.  Ash responds by quoting two lines from "The Coy Mistress" without citing the author or title.  All of this has reference to the couple's situation.  Faust in Goethe's play is tempted by the devil with sensual pleasures, and at risk of losing his soul he cries out "Stay, thou art so fair."  "To His Coy Mistress" is a Carpe Diem poem, a genre in which the poetic speaker atempts to persuade his mistress to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh today rather than worrying about tomorrow.George Herbert wrote on the struggle between earthly delight and heavenly love (The Agonie)

This is way above my understanding -- and this is just the simple stuff she discusses.
Just me -- I love the way she uses color - greens, golds, etc.

Mippy

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #109 on: June 03, 2010, 08:27:05 AM »
Ginny and others wrote about:  just swimming in allusions
Sally says the author is playing intellectual games with the readers.

Am I drowning in allusions -- life guard needed --as I keep stopping at the literary allusions?  and totally, completely forgetting about the progression of the novel?
                                      
I still haven't caught up, am finding that going back using the readers guide is fun, but I've lost track of what is going on, if anything is going on, in the lives of the so-called characters.
        
help ... help ... help ...   please
quot libros, quam breve tempus

Jonathan

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #110 on: June 03, 2010, 11:23:56 AM »
Pity the poor characters in this book.  What we see as fascinating allusions, myth and legend, is their bread and butter. Do they not have lives of their own?

'What did you make of the Glass Coffin, Everybody? Can you figure out why it's in there?'

This is one of Christabel's revealing tales given to Roland to read by Maud when they put their heads together over the problem presented by the stolen letters.

What an interesting idea: Roland as a quixotic character. It seems to me he is very level-headed. It is his good fortune to have found the tip of an iceberg.

marcie

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #111 on: June 03, 2010, 11:56:26 AM »
I'm with those of you who, the first time reading the book, skipped some of the longer poems and stories so that I could follow the main plot involving the mystery of the letters to find out what happened between Ash and LaMotte. A second reading, and the thoughts of each of you, is helping me to focus on the extended and deeper meanings.

Jonathan, I agree that Roland is presented as a level-headed person... and someone who avoids controversy. That's why  his taking the original letters from the library seems so brash. I don't think it's anything he would have dreamed of doing but his "possession" by the life and words of Ash, whom he has studied so long, has made it seem almost natural for  him to possess his actual  handwritten letters, at least for a time.

ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #112 on: June 03, 2010, 09:51:59 PM »
Gosh what interesting points of view!

Thank you Kidsal, I can truly say that of all the billions of allusions floating by like fireflies Ventriloquism never entered my mind.  I appreciate your copying that here. But HO! See below!

Literary criticism is strange. One expert may see it one way and another may see it another. In the heading a ...colleague? of Byatt's led a month long book discussion (or commented 4 times) on this book, marcie found the link, it's in the heading but I would not read it unless I didn't mind spoilers.

hahaha From what Mippy says a spoiler would be helpful. I'm with you:  but I've lost track of what is going on, if anything is going on, in the lives of the so-called characters.

How would you answer Mippy? The ONLY way you can see your way clear here is to skip. Just skip. If she throws in Proserpina and Melusina, you have to bite your tongue and your tendency not to want to MISS a trick and skip the entire thing, there you can see the plot. Then you can come back and figure them all out.

And what of Val, Jeh asks? What indeed? (I had to laugh at your: One thing I did find really fascinating was/is how convincing Byatt is in creating the fictitious poets Ash and Lamotte and samples of their works.  She almost had me convinced that I was ignorant of a whole school of Victorian literature which I have studied in the distant past at the post graduate level.  In other words she almost had me fooled.


She HAD me fooled on Ash. I stumbled on a poem by "him" in reference to some classical myth and thought I'd found a gold mine, oh BOY who IS he, this is....er.....

How do YOU all feel when the author is tricksey in this way? Tricking even the reader?

In this she and her sister are alike, aren't they? I wonder if all authors trick their readers, I would say it irritates me but maybe they all do?

_______________________________

Let's focus on the characters, do they seem real? Which ONE of them seems most realistic, so far everybody seems to find Roland steady (tho he steals important letters), what of the others? Leonora kind of came and went, didn't she? Fade in, Fade out.

Which character so far is the least well drawn or memorable or believable for that matter?

Kidsal likes the use of color, and there's a lot of color in this, have you noticed? The blue and gold sky of a Turner painting, lots of color. Does it symbolize anything?

I LOVED the visit to Seal Court, "a turret, a battlement, white in the gloom." 

Yes, paralleling (of course) some of the poems and fairy tales here's a real castle, just loved that section and hope, (desperately hope) that the rest of the book (which I have not read, only our section here so I don't get confused) will follow that trail. Or will there be another cornucopia of ... Hercules?  What has HERCULES got to do with anything? Tricksy?  Tricksy with the stealing of the letters?  She may as well have put in Tricky Dick, that's an allusion too.

Sir George Bailey says, "Funny way to spend your life, though, studying another  chap's versifying."  I'm beginning to think he's right.

And when they find the letters, Dolly's secret, the light from Sir George's torch shines briefly on Lord Leighton's Perserpone, which is in our heading as well.

Why?

___________________________

Now the finding of these letters, we learn on page 100, is of prime importance.

Maude  says "I have seen enough already to know that my work on Christabel must be seriously altered in the light of what you have in these letters---"

And Roland says,  "Oh yes... it might change the whole line of my thought."

What is Maud's thought? After looking an hour tonight I found Roland's, see below.

And at the end of chapter 5 we have Sir George wanting more advice and the two scholars, Maud and Roland, hoping to keep these letters away from Cropper and Blackadder. I can't look at that without laughing.

In addition then to Roland and Maude who are on this quest we have Val, and in trying to look up if Val  is actually married to Roland (I found she is just living with him, does that seem accurate?), but in finding out about Val who constantly bitterly (why?) refers to her self as "menial," ("my menial keyhole observations," ..."my menial vantage point...")  Guess what I found?


Ventriloquism! Val wrote a paper, "Male Ventriloquism: The Women of Randolph Henry Ash."

So the question: but what about Val the student with a perfectly good degree and inquiring mind that doesnt quite make it in the academic world? is really to the point.

Why does she not?

It seems that Roland feels that Ash  "neither liked nor understood women, that his female speaker were constructs of his own fear and aggression, that even the poem cycle Ask to Embla was the work not of love but of narcissism, the poet addressing his Anima."  Page 16.

So if Roland feels that way, and he thinks he's stumbled upon love letters to Christabel LaMotte, who I  have a feeling is supposed to represent...well what does she  represent? Then it would change his opinion but is he writing ON Ash's personal life?

Do those of you who HAVE been able to follow the plot know and can you direct us TO what each scholar here is working on, theme wise in the way of a paper or book or?

Oh and I did look up woof as in Ariachne's Broken Woof, a poem by Christabel LaMotte which Roland was reading on the way out on the train.

Woof here does not mean a dog bark. Woof apparently means:

Main Entry: 1woof
Pronunciation: \ˈwu̇f, ˈwüf\
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of Middle English oof, from Old English ōwef, from ō- (from on) + wefan to weave — more at weave
Date: before 12th century

1 a : weft 1a b : woven fabric; also : the texture of such a fabric

So this is Arachne's which is spelled strangely (and I'm afraid to look THAT one up) broken weaving.

But listen, none of this makes any sense? We all know the myth I am sure of Arachne, we know spiders are Arachnida, so what does that have to do with anything in the plot?

It's really really hard, when confronted with titles right above the Broken Woof poem (which is pretty but doesn't explain the brokenness, why it was broken or what it means), but when you've got an entire paragraph on the top of page 43 with titles like:  "White Gloves: Blanche Glover: Occluded Lesbian Sexuality in LaMotte," and "Melusina, Builder of Cities: A Subversive Female Cosmogony," to take a lot seriously here. We've all seen similar titles or worse. I've seen worse, what I'm after is what's going on.  Mippy's question. :)

Let's make an outline of the characters like Agatha Christie used to do in her books and the plot?

ginny

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #113 on: June 04, 2010, 09:44:00 AM »
And while we're getting up a list of characters and plot, a road map (we need one), in answer to Jeh's  question: but what about Val the student with a perfectly good degree and inquiring mind that doesn't quite make it in the academic world?,  one thing that has irritated me about English lit is that it's subjective.

 (I wrote this the other day and took it out but it seems to me this book is veering IN this direction, it really does). You can take one English professor in one course and get total raves for your ability to analyze literature, and be told " you should have majored in English," etc., and in the next course you can't seem to do anything right. Your brilliant analyses  are not appreciated, at all, even if you can prove them. So you end up majoring in the professor perhaps not the subject, has anybody else experienced having turned in a paper at any level or grade, having worked over your composition  like Val did and being disappointed with the result?

There's a lot of disappointment, actually, in this book.

What's the difference? Archibald MacLeish said a "poem should not mean, but be."  How is that possible? Is that true also of a novel? I find myself wondering why Byatt wrote this at all. When I think that way the romance of the quest of not only 2,  but other people who have devoted their studies to, as Sir George puts it "other chap's versification," seems kind of fun. Then you add all the other allusions, which are almost like being in somebody's mind who is well read and well educated in literature's, but the mind has gone amok. Sort of stream of consciousness of the author, because I don't see it coming from Roland or am I wrong?

Isn't it the author who is also in the book throwing out all this blizzard of allusions?

Cast of Characters: a beginning (if it's good enough for  Agatha Christie, it's good enough for me, what or who have I left out? )


Dramatis Personae:



Roland Mitchell, PhD: expert in Randolph Ash

Val
(does she have a last name?) lives with Roland, works in the city, resists pressure to "specialize" in one type of job or another. Seems bitter.  I don't see that she got a degree, did she?

Maud Bailey, PhD, Lincoln University professor, has a lot of Christabel's unpublished papers, runs a Women's Resource Centre in Lincoln.

Leonora Stern,
Tallahassee, PhD, knows all there is known about  Christabel along with Maud.

Fergus Wolff
(at the door?) PhD, tells the story of Melusina and its connection with Christabel's poem/ interpretation of the same name.

The new feminists "see Melusina in her bath as a symbol of self-sufficient female sexuality needing no poor males."


Supporting Cast:

Mortimer Cropper, PhD:  working on "The Complete Correspondence of Randolph Henry Ash."

James Blackadder, PhD: trained in literature by Leaves who "showed him the terrible, the magnificent importance and urgency of English literature and simultaneously deprived him of any confidence in his own capacity to contribute to or change it." (32) Wrote his thesis on Randolph Henry Ash's poems.


Randolph Henry Ash: fictional poet
Christabel La Motte: fictional poet
Billions of allusions to everything but the kitchen sink.

Plot:

Roland, looking for sources for Ash's Garden of Proserpina,  finds some letters in an old book in the London Library (supposedly however all the letters were returned to Christabel, these are apparently  drafts).  Lots of gold in this segment, the linking of Proserpina, Aeneas and Hercules.

The letters suggest a possible relationship between Ash and Christabel LaMotte, a minor poet, hitherto unknown.

This sets Roland on a quest to see if there are more letters from those who might know, Leonora Stern and Maud Bailey. This takes them to Seal Court, the Bailey seat where they find because of a verse on a doll, a hidden cache of letters.  but Sir George insists he have somebody advise him on them. Thus endeth Chapter 5.

Who have I left out?

That's a lot of emphasis on Ash and not much on La Motte.


Here's a thought for today, and I've heard this said before, what do you think of it:

(Page 33): There were times when Blackadder allowed himself to see clearly that he would end his working life, that was to say his conscious thinking life, in this task, that all his thoughts would have been another man's thoughts, all his work another man's work."

Wow! The end of his working life would be the end of his thinking life and all his thoughts would have been another man's and all his work another man's.

What is this saying about those who pursue literary criticism? Wow!

bellamarie

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #114 on: June 04, 2010, 02:45:14 PM »
WOW!  I have not even got nearly as far as some of you have in reading and I come in here and see all the posts are as mumbled and jumbled as the first few chapters of this book.  I decided for the first time in discussing a book with Seniorlearn, I was not going to go delving into the unknown and confuse myself like I have in the past.  Ginny's point in mentioning obsessing over the Christmas tree for an example.  I still giggle now when I think of how you truly were convinced that old tree had meaning.  We do know how to lead each other down the paths of imagination, sometimes only to find out the author was being much more simple than we were willing to admit.  But oh what fun we have!

Sally..."gobbledy gook" indeed!  Geez, just say what you mean and forgetaboutit already right?  Loved you choice of words!  lol
Ginny..Move over, because I need a seat on the dim witted bench if I'm expected to go researching the fairytales, and made up authors that paralel to the real life ones in this book.
Gumtree...I think every author plays around and shows off to a point, that's the fun of writing.  I agree the plot does have us twisting and turning, but I am trying my best to stay focused on the title "Possesion A Romance".
Kidsal...I may take you up on watching the movie to help me sort out these characters if I can't sooner or later keep them straight.  Colors indeed, don't we find that to be true in most books?  Ch. 15  OH MY, I'm barely through chapter 3.
Ginny...Red Herrings,  lolol well I suppose if we want some we can find them.
Jeh...I was so happy to see you mention Val.  I have kept my focus on her from the beginning.
Marcie...Hmmm....so Roland stealing the letters is out of his character but due to his obsession with Ash, he can't control himself?  Now that is interesting.  Can an honest, trustworthy person break the cardinal law of stealing, and it be out of their character?  I'm pondering that, because when he stole the letters and made copies of them I was furious.  He knows the importance of them, yet he feels entitled to possess them for  his own selfish reasons.  His competitive nature to outdo Cropper's collection seems a bit bizarre to me.

I personally felt the reference to the forbidden garden where Roland and Val live seemed Byatt was analogizing to the Garden of Eden.  The forbidden fruit, Mrs. Irving enticing them as Satan enticed Adam and Eve. They like Adam and Eve were tempted and failed the test.  Val is interesting to me because she seems to see Roland's obsession and she makes a few comments off handedly to let him know she doesn't much give a hell a beans about his obsession.  It's interesting how she drops a little clue, when Roland questions whether Ash had a tryst.  This is as far as I've gotten so I shall stop and go continue to read through ch. 5.  Much like Marcie, I intend to pass over the poems and not delve too deeply into them, since this is my first time reading Byatt I'm all about staying with the mystery and romance.  In her interview I personally did not get a feeling she was using trickery in the novel, more entertainment, and yes, showing off.  lol

Wow!  Ginny thanks so much for that cast of characters.  I may copy, paste and print that and place it in my book to help me.  You are the best!!!

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanR

  • Posts: 1093
Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #115 on: June 04, 2010, 04:51:34 PM »
Jonathan asked about the "glass coffin" I think.  Perhaps it refers to the sleeping maiden who can only be awakened by love's true kiss - like Snow White in her glass coffin.  Maud's  bathroom is glassy with a shower curtain like a waterfall which brings up Melusina.

Melusina keeps coming up and her legend is important in this story.  She was a water nymph who begged to assume human form to marry a human lover.  She was given this but had to revert to her original shape one day a week. If seen thus by her husband, the deal was off.  She would lock herself in a room with a bath but one day her husband spied on her and saw her true form at which she turned into a dragon and flew away.  There are a lot of pictures of her in her bath - usually showing her with 2 tails.  By prying into her secret, the husband is supposed to be representing male control over female power.
This is probably important later when we meet Cristabel.  Such fun, this is!!

kidsal

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  • Howdy from Rock Springs, WY
Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #116 on: June 04, 2010, 04:54:22 PM »
Roland Mitchell:  state of somnolence, sick juddering wakefulness, worry about Val, pg 11; Graduate of Prince Albert College, London and PhD from same at 29.
Thought of himself as a latecomer.  Grew up in a depressed Lancashire cotton town. Father:  County official, Mother:  disappointed English grad, disappointed in herself, his father and in himself.  She drank.  Kept changing Roland’s schooling.  A’s at A level.  Saw himself as a failure and vaguely responsible for this.  Essentially unemployed, part-time tutoring, dogsbodying for Blackadder, and restaurant dishwashing.  Compact, clearcut, precise features, soft black hair, thoughtful dark brown eyes.  Paid little attention to what people thought of him.  Women liked him.  Val called him Mole? Met her when 18 years old. Pg 14
Dissertation: “History, Historians and Poetry? A Study of the Presentation of Historical “Evidence” in the Poems of Randolph Henry Ash.” Page 11
Roland’s index cards – one set of grassy green, the other tomato-red. Page 6
“Oxford Selected Ash” – book Roland carried page 10.


Val- lived in a basement room called a garden flat with Roland. Not allowed to enter the garden. Quarreled seldom with Roland – usually about Val’s reserve, refusal to advance opinions.  The more success Roland had the less she said.  Wrote her required essay “Male Ventriloquism:  The Women of Randolph Henry Ash.”  Examiners had thought wrongly that Roland had done the work.  Pg 16  Was from Croydon, mother divorced, drinker.  Father in Merchant Navy – hadn’t seen him since five. Pg 16  Val left Roland, he was glad, then she came back, took course in shorthand-typing.
Became the breadwinner.  Academic typing at home, various temp jobs during the day.  Called her work ”menial.” Two Vals – one sat silent at home in old jeans the other made up for day job.  Not constructed to be attractive.  She didn’t like Fergus.


Fergus Wolff – Roland’s rival in Blackadder’s Ash Factory. Pg 17 Got job Roland had applied for.  Roland afraid Fergus might think him resentful., pg 18  Tall, brassy hair cut long on top and short at the back.  Bright blue eyes, white teeth. Pleasant enough in general.  Roland liked Fergus because Fergus seemed to like him.  Pg 37  Writing a deconstructive account of Balzac’s “Chef-d’Oeuvre Inconnu.”
Expert on Christabel LaMotte because of an affair he had with Maud., pg 39


Professor Blackadder – writing “Complete Works of Ash.” Discouraged and liked to discourage others, stringent scholar.  Blackadder’s Ash Factory, operated from British Museum on a small grant from Newsome Foundation in Albuquerque, charitable trust. pg 11,13.
 A Scot, pg 13 Thought British writings should stay in Britain and be studied by British.  Thought Cropper trying to worm his way into confidence and goodwill of owners of manuscripts lodged within, but not owned by, the British Library, pg 13.  
54 years old, Downing College, Cambridge.  Saw examples of Ash’s ventriloquism – became an expert on Ash.  PhD “Conscious Argument and Unconscious Bias:  A Source of Tension in the Dramatic Poems of Randolph Henry Ash.”  Pg 32
Thought often of how a man becomes his job., pg 33.  Blackadder allowed himself to see clearly that he would end his working life in this task, that all his thoughts would have been another man’s thoughts, all his work another man’s work.  But he did find Ash fascinating.  It was a pleasant subordination, if he was a subordinate., pg 33


Mortimer Cropper – Stant Collection – working on “Complete Correspondence of Randolph Henry Ash,” page 4  Trustee of Newsome Foundation, pg 13


Paola – Blackadder’s clerical assistant. Long colorless hair, huge glasses.  


Dr. Beatrice Nest – “Helpmeets”  was her book – doesn’t go down well with today’s feminists. Studying Ellen Ash.  Feminists believe Ash suppressed Ellen’s writing.  Beatrice spent 25 years wanting to show how self-denying and supporting Ellen was.  Found that no one cared – they wanted proof that Ellen was raging with rebellion, pain, and untapped talent.


Dr Maud Bailey – Women’s Resource Center, Lincoln, London University.  Had an affair with Fergus. Pg 39  Expert on Christabel LaMotte.  Wrote essay – see below.
Most untouchable woman, trustworthy.pg 55
Taller than Roland.  Roland thought of her as green and white.  Had a Green Beattle car.  Green towels, green sheets, white divan. pg 63 Lived at top of Tennyson Towers. Pg 45
Contents of Christabel’s desk sent to one of her cousins May Bailey upon her death.  Maude is great-great-grandaughter of May and great-great-great-great niece of Christabel. Pg 46


Sir George Bailey  - Seal Court, Croysant le Wold.  Not willing to let anyone look for info on Christabel., pg 47


Joan Bailey  - wheelchair incident, pg 81-83 Lives at Seal Court.


Professor Leonora Stern -  Tallahassee – Expert on Christabel LaMotte. Pg 39
Sir George Bailey threatened her with a gun, pg 47


Past:
Randolph Henry Ash – body vanished? Pg 24


Ellen Ash – gave many of Ash’s poems to British Museum, pg 13 Childless, pg 30


Mr. Isidore LaMotte -  Born 1801.  Cambridge.  Mythographer. Wrote ”Mythologies indigenes de la Bretagne et de la Grande Bretagne” and ”Mythologies francaises.”  Scholarly comendium of folklore and legends., pg 33 Parents Jean-Baptiste and Emilie LaMotte.  Married Miss Arabel Gumpert.  Two daughters:  Sophie, 1830, wife of Sir George Bailey of Seal Close, Croysant le Wold; Christabel, 1825, never married.  Lived with young woman friend, Blanche Glover.


Christabel Madeleine LaMotte – .  1825 Never married.  Had house in Richmond in Surrey shared with woman friend Miss Blanche Glover. Pg 41. She is undertaking a grand Fairy Topic. Tapping spirits, pg 29 Wrote religious poems “Last Things” and children’s stories “Tales Told in November”. Page 36 Wrote  “The Fairy Melusina.”  Pg 38  Tragedy and romance and symbolism rampant all over it, a kind of dream-world full of strange beasts and hidden meanings and a really weird sexuality or sensuality.  Wrote insect poems, pg 43   Wrote “Glass Coffin” pg 52
Birdlike.  Pale crimped hair, generic Victorian lady, pg 44
Reputation rests on restrained and delicate lyrics, products of a fine sensibility, a somewhat somber temperament, and a troubled but steadfast Christian faith., pg 42
Lived with Sophie for rest of life after Blanche drowned. Pg 42
Feminists saw her as distraught and enraged.


Blanche Glover – Lived with Christabel LaMotte, artistic ambitions.  Oil paintings, wood carvings.  Drowned in Thames in 1861, pg 42 Wrote a diary – pg 46 “A Journal of Our Home-Life, In Our House in Richmond.” Pg 49  Wrote about Robinson breakfast – read aloud a little of the Faerie Queene.  Irritated that Cristabel is spending so much time on letter writing, pg 52 Letters kept from her – I am not a blind mouldiwarp.  Not her governess.  A prowler?  Where is our frankness of intercourse?  This Peeping Tom – I know nothing, I never have known very much, but I fear for her.  The Wolf is gone from the door.  Then the diary ends abruptly. Pg 54  No evidence to connect the Prowler with Ash. Leonora Stern thinks Prowler is Mr Thomas Hearst of Richmond who played the oboe with the ladies.  Blanche was jealous. Pg 55


Crabb Robinson, ?? and Ash met at breakfast at his house. Kept a Diary –had hoped to be a writer but deciding he lacked the ability he kept a diary of interviews he had with famous authors.  Recorded breakfast party where Ash and LaMotte met. They had questioned LaMotte about the tapping spirits – she declined to express an opinion. Pg 29


Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #117 on: June 04, 2010, 05:44:26 PM »
'Blackadder was fifty-four and had come to editing Ash out of pique. He was the son and grandson of Scottish schoolmasters. His grandfather recited poetry on firelight evenings: Marmion, Childe Harold, Ragnarok. His father sent him to Downing College in Cambridge to study under F. R. Leavis. Leavis did to Blackadder what he did to serious students: he showed him the terrible, the magnificent importance and urgency of English literature and sumultaneously deprived him of any confidence in his own capacity to contribute to or change it. The young Blackadder wrote poems, imagined Dr Leavis's comments on them, and burned them. He devised an essay style of Spartan brevity, equivocations and impenetrability. His fate was decided by a seminar on dating. The Cambridge room was crowded, the floor dull, the chair-arms perched on. The lean and agile don, in his open-necked shirt, stood on the window-sill and tugged at the casement to let in fresh air, cold Cambridge light. The dating handout contained a troubadour lyric, a piece of dramatist Jacobean verse, some satirical couplets, a blank verse meditation on volcanic mud and a love sonnet. Blackadder, schooled by his grandfather, saw immediately that all these poems were by Randolph Henry Ash, examples of his ventriloquisms, if his unwieldy range. He himself had two choices: to state his knowledge, or to allow the seminar to proceed, with Leavis enticing unfortunate  undergraduates into making wrong identifications, and then proceeding to demonstrate his own analytic brilliance in distinguishing fake from authenticity, Victorian alientation from the voice of true feeling. Blackadder chose silence, and Ash was duly found wanting. Blackadder felt that he had somehow betrayed Randolph Henry Ash, though he might more justly have been thought to have betrayed himself, his grandfather, or possibly Dr Leavis....' p32

It was this passage that fooled me, like jeh,  into thinking that Byatt's poets were real. I rushed of to consult my Oxford Companion to English literature. Nothing on Ash and LaMotte. I have a catalogue of the British Portrait Gallery. No portraits neither. With the little number Byatt does on Leavis, I wonder if she was his student.  It's a very instructional paragraph. Along with the good advice from Mr Sludge in Browning's monolgue, I think it's a good key to the labyrinth into which the author has taken us.



marcie

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  • Posts: 7802
Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #118 on: June 04, 2010, 11:48:14 PM »
Jonathan, that's a great paragraph to describe the fictional Blackadder and the effects of his experience studying under F.R. Leavis. Byatt studied under F.R. Leavis at Cambridge. The following is from an interview with Byatt (http://cercles.com/interviews/byatt.html). It mentions FR Leavis and also talks about using an omniscient narrator, which I think is very relevant to POSSESSION. In the interview, Byatt also mentions the authority of writers. I think that some of the gobbledygook Byatt has some of the characters say about the current state of literary criticism, highlights her feelings and thoughts about extremes of literary theory "whereas now a perfectly legitimate attempt to question the authority of the text has skidded into a feeling that the text has no authority and its author doesn't understand anything."

FROM THE INTERVIEW
"N & JF: You are not afraid of using an omniscient narrator.

ASB: Some of my best teaching experiences were with Middlemarch and also with Dostoevsky, who uses a completely different omniscient narrator to George Eliot's, because he plays with it as though it's a wonderful orchestra. Sometimes his omniscient narrator is inside people's heads and sometimes it is above, uttering judgements about the nature of the universe. The novel I'm obsessed with at the moment is Dostoevsky's The Demons or The Possessed, however we translate it, where the narrator sometimes is just the gossip from the town, which is very much what George Eliot does.

I get angry with critics who say that George Eliot was using the God's eye view because she was very dignified and thought she was God. She didn't. It was just that she wanted to say whatever she knew in whatever was the best style to say it in. And she orchestrated the styles.

I used to ask students to look at the times she uses the first person plural: "we all feel this." She does this to make a statement about a universal human trait. Sometimes she says, "You may think..." and she is actually addressing somebody she's not sure she agrees with. Sometimes she says, "He thought," and sometimes she almost suggests that she doesn't quite know what somebody thought, but that it was a bit like this. She can do all those things, because she's got a flexible instrument. If you choose a first person narrative you've thrown away every single one of those opportunities; but you may have an intensity that she doesn't have.

JN & JF: The term omniscient narrator seems almost pejorative now.

ASB: Yes, this has become a malady of our times. I was a student at Cambridge under Dr. Leavis, who was very proud of himself and sure that he was right and everybody else was wrong; but he was also sure that the writers were more right than he was; whereas now a perfectly legitimate attempt to question the authority of the text has skidded into a feeling that the text has no authority and its author doesn't understand anything. In which case you may as well give up studying literature and study Acts of Parliament, which are just as interesting.

I remember Richard Hoggart saying once, "I could write you an absolutely brilliant essay on the London phone book, but the one I'd write on Dostoevsky would be better." And that's because Dostoevsky is more interesting. Good authors have authority and I respect them."

marcie

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Re: Possession by A. S. Byatt ~ Book Club Online for June
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2010, 12:01:45 AM »
Thanks, Ginny and Kidsal for starting those good descriptions of the cast of characters. I am feeling sympathetic to Roland, although it doesn't seem that he and Val have a constructive relationship. Roland's quiet, meek (mole-ish) style doesn't bring out the best in Val and she seems to suck the spirit out of Roland. Val seems to have been beaten down in her academic experience (and her family life growing up). Her faculty committee think that Roland is responsible for her dissertation (even though Roland doesn't agree with what Val wrote about Ash.) I've read that academia's harshness to women is one of Byatt's themes, throughout many of her books.