Noah's Compass by Anne Tyler ~ May Book Club Online -

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

 

Noah's Compass ~  May Book Club Online
Everyone is invited - ANYTIME!

Anne Tyler's Noah's Compass was SeniorLearn's first  choice for  our May Book Club Online discussion.  We do hope you will join us in what should be a meaningful, worthwhile experience.  Tyler's protagonist, Liam Pennywell, tells his young grandson that Noah wasn't going anywhere in the Ark.  "He was just trying to stay afloat. He was just bobbing up and down, so he didn't need a compass, or a rudder, or a sextant."  Liam Pennywell  is troubled by his inability to remember anything about the first night that he moved into his new, spare condominium,  after being laid off at 61 from a job he never liked. All he knows when he wakes up the next day in the hospital is that his head is sore and bandaged.  For Liam, the most distressing part of his memory loss was that it felt like he was losing control. And yet this novel is described as "gently humorous."  Really. We all know a Liam, the novel suggests.   In fact, there may be a little of Liam in each of us. Just trying to stay afloat.  Please plan to join us as we float along together.

Discussion Schedule May 1-7 ~     Chapters 1,2,3 May 8-14 ~   Chapters 4,5,6 May 15 -19 ~  Chapters 7,8,9 May20 -24 ~  Chapters 10,11,12,13 May 24-30 ~  Overview, Rate the Book

 

Overview, Rate the Book:
 
1.  "I am not especially unhappy, but see no particular reason to go on living."  Is Anne Tyler descibing Everyman here or just one depressed individual who found his life "heartbreaking"  and his retirement years lonely?

2.  Do you  think Anne Tyler conveys a   message to the reader with this novel?

3. Ignoring your opinion of the book as a whole, was there any part, any scene, or any character who made a particular impression or tickled your fancy?

4. All things considered, how many stars would you give this book, five being the highest?  *****

Relevant Links:
Amazon.com. - Used copies available;
READERS' GUIDE QUESTIONS - CHAPTERS 1-9;
Bruce Frankel's What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life?  
Anne Tyler's Baltimore;

  

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln

[ALF43]

GINGEE!  I miss you and your posts.  I hope that you are doing well.

Bless your heart JoanP-

She's admiing her character, as if he's a real person!  Her characters come alive as she describes them - or perhaps she's describing the person that has come alive in her imagination...he has taken on a life of his own

.
I don't see the life that he took on as his own but I do agree that to AT he's alive.  Sad for Ms Tyler.

[joangrimes]

Ok i am going to say again that I liked the book...I do not dislike Liam...I cannot agree with all of you....maybe I am the only one here who does like this book and who does not dislike Liam...I am a History, English, French major... several of you have made statements that there is nothing you can do with a History degree...Ok but I have an education...I went to college to get an education...I did not go to college for job training....I  took the English because I loved literature and History and Literature are closely related...I went back to school and took French because I had taken French in high school and rthe school where I taught needed a French teacher...I got a grant to get the French degree...Now I want to tell you that getting the French degree was the best thing I ever did...It opened up the whole world for me... It helped to take me to all of those places I had studied about in my History classes...France became my second home...It lead me to pursue volunteer work in my retirement years at a museum of art thus extending my studies to art..Maybe I did not get any worthwhile job training in my life but I got an education.  To me an education is a wonderful thing....Joan Grimes....I had to come back and edit my post because I did compromise to satify my Dad...He insisted that I must be trained for a job...so I did get my teaching crddentials for teaching History, English, and French...To me those courses were the biggest waste of time...one does not learn to teach in an education course but learns by actually teaching...Joan Grimes

[pedln]

Bravo, JoanG.  Well said.  Your determination to choose something you love, and to do it, has served you well.

The list below is a bit off topic, but it does follow the career paths  and planning of young college students and graduates.  My 17 year-old-granddaughter will spend this summer in Panama working with Panamanian youth on community projects.  She forwarded me the brochure of the activities and participants, and below is a list of the college majors of the staff  project directors and supervisors.  Did some of these even exist 10 or 15 years ago?

Sociology and Pre-Med.
International Relations and a minor in Skiing.
Spanish degree.
Global Health
International Studies with a concentration in Political Science and Latin America
Culture and Politics with a focus in Immigration Studies
Environmental Studies major on the Pre-Med track
BA in Spanish Literature and Creative Writing,

[JoanP]

Nowhere on that list is Philosophy - I checkd twice.

JoanG - I knew girls like you.  Some of them always knew what they wanted to do - one a doctor, one a vet, from the time they were young.  Back in the day, most girls didn't aspire to these professions.

Then there were those, like you, who chose to follow their love for a certain subject, with no thought of what they would do with it.  I was one of those.  Then came the awakening that I was not really prepared for the jobs that I wanted...and had to go back to school as soon as I graduated.

Maybe that's the reason you empathized with  Liam - he followed his love for Philosophy.   

[serenesheila]

I have finished this book.  I liked Liam.  However, IMO, the book was a waste of my time.  As far as I am concerned, it never went anywhere.  I did admire Liam for marching to his own drummer.  As one who enjoys solitude, and quiet, I related to him, in many ways.  I also liked his daughter, Kitty.  But, I want a little more action, or meaning in a book.

Sheila

[gingerw]

Hi Alf I am reading all the post. All is well with me. just enjoying what all have to say about this book.

[Aberlaine]

From CallieinOK Reply #134: (Couldn't get "Quote" to work)
I, too, apologize for not participating.  It was about this part of the book when I became thoroughly annoyed with Tyler's characters and stopped being interested in analyzing them.
  
They began to seem wishy-washy and I can't haven't yet been able to really explain why I began to think this way. (My high school algebra teacher wouldn't allow us to say "can't"; we had to say "I haven't been able to - yet."  Smiley)

I'm still curious about your reactions to the ending.  So - I'm "hanging around", enjoying reading and considering your opinions.

I'm reading Noah's Compass on an iPod Shuffle which wants to skip to earlier chapters.  It makes me very frustrated.  I have fibromyalgia so my mental faculties (remembering, like Liam) are very faulty.  In order to remember a book, the story needs to move quickly and be exciting, which this book is not.

I'm half way through and think I will delete the audiobook and move onto something else.  I may check in a few times to read your comments.

Nancy

[JoanP]

Good morning,Mates!

 Before we started this discussion, we invited the author to participate in this discussion - knowing her aversion to Interviews, book tours and signings.  Unfortunately, online discussions are no exception.  After reading some of your candid observations, I think this is one time that her decline was a blessing - although there are many questions...
Nancy - do I understand you to say that you've only read half the book?  Have you deleted it?  It is in the last three chapters that we begin to understand some of the reasons that led up to Liam's lack of interest in living.  Some of us are still not sure what that is.  Admittedly, the action is slow-moving.  I can understand your frustration.     Another problem - we spent the first two weeks of the discussion on the first half of the book - analyzing and relating our own experience.  Perhaps that slowed us down too much...although those first two weeks revealed much about the way we regard our retirement.  Yes, please do stay with us.  We value your opinion and input.  (You too, Gingee!)


 Sheila makes the same comment - "more action, more meaning."  I think it's difficult to have a lot of action when considering  the workings of someone's mind -but admittedly, action is not one of the hallmarks of Tyler's novels.  But meaning. In the end, it's the meaning that we have to decide on. How well did Tyler get her point across - and what was her intent.

[JoanP]

JoanG - I just noticed your "edit" - I had to come back and edit my post because I did compromise to satisfy my Dad.  This isn't the first time that we've seem references to our dads and their influence on our future choices.  It makes sense - at this time, Dad was the family breadwinner, Dad. Dad is concerned about how his daughter will support herself.  Is this how it was with you?  Did anyone have an influential mother in career decisions?

It is quite interesting to read of the different responses to Liam Pennywell.  I'm still surprised about the reaction of those who believe he is - and has been for some time - a very depressed man and yet you still show no compassion for the  man.  Those who don't think he's depressed, just a solitary soul - liked him just fine.    (JoanG - you are not alone in seeing him this way.) Which man is Anne Tyler attempting to portray?  I think we need to answer that before we are finished here.

Anne Tyler's rather introspective novels are not to everyone's liking, but as we know, she has a huge following.  Sheila, have you read other books by this author?  Would you care to compare?


Let's examine the final chapters for a few days before we decide how to rate this book.  We do learn more about Liam's early days in these last  chapters that might answer the question put here - "What made Liam such a dull boy?"
The answer seems to go back to events of his childhood and  his parents' role - as it often does... What was the extent of his father's influence?  Is there any indication of what led him to the study of Philosophy?

[mrssherlock]

Fate has it in for me regarding this book; my pick-up-by date expired before I could get in to pick it up.  So these comments are responding to your posts rather than to Tyler's work.

JoanP: 

those who believe he is - and has been for some time - a very depressed man and yet you still show no compassion for the  man

Was Tyler trying to enlist compassion for Liam?  And why would depression negate our compassion?  These comments lead me to believe that Tyler missed the mark. I remember how some of us (not me) detested Olive Kitteridge and some didn't invest that much emotion into her character.  Does Liam incite either indifference or emotional rejection?  An emotional bonding is necessary for me to fully enter into the fictional world being created in each book.

[bookad]

hello there

its Deb here...weather cool in Ontario, but expecting a bit of a warming trend in the next day or two...spring still in the air...many people out on the trail walking (my dog, Billie & I do our 5 mile hike daily and its so nice with the cooler weather)
.............

I feel an empathy with Liam, ...he seems to voice his wants, but not with a lot of conviction , and they seem to be overridden in his interactions with others  ...i.e.  Eunice who is insisting she will help him with his resume--but not listening to the fact he doesn't want a job with her employer's company....his sister, bustling in & doing her own thing without any regard to how Liam feels about her help when he comes home from hospital....his niece, moving herself into his apartment without inquiring whether she is welcome

Liam seems to lack the energy suggesting to me he feels unequal to people's energy & therefore has no boundaries with regard to his own needs, moving him further downward...he really didn't fend for himself when let go from his teacher's job,  as someone pointed out he really had more rights to the position than the other person who was kept on staff....seems to me he is very depressed

having said the above, I am still on the chapters 4-6... but just wanted to get my vote in for feeling an empathy for Liam & his situation...wishing there was someone he seemed to 'click' with to be able to say his true thoughts & feelings....

have got behind in my reading ..will move ahead & finish the book tomorrow or Friday...so can contribute something more current to the messages

enjoying all the comments though...they really give the book dimension

[straudetwo]

So many good posts to comment on - it's hard to know where to begin!
I'll start with a big wave to Ginger.  It's so good to see you, Gingee,  to know you are with us, and keeping yourself well.

JoanG,  brava, bravissima!  Loved your post and admire your stamina. Unquestionably, a good, solid education is  invaluable.  I always felt the same way.  The more exposure we have to the riches of the mind, the better off we are.

Pedln, "a coming-of-age story",  exactly. The suggested analogy is obviously not perfect since Liam IS of age!

JoanP,  I do not think Liam was or is depressed because he doesn't show the typical symptoms.  He did not run out of energy,  continued to function, he did not sleep away his days.  
At some point he simply pulled back, became detached, impassive, indifferent -all characteristics of a stoic temperament. We don't know enough about the early part of his life while he was married to Millie ("a waifish, fragile woman with a veil of transparent hair"). Could his deliberate"withdrawal" or separation, his lack of professional ambition, his disinterest in social contacts  have started with Millie's death for which he felt responsible ?

None of Tyler's book have much of a plot, but I believe there is momentum in Noah's Compass, and it begins with the assault by the intruder.  The changes are very subtle and, as usual, Tyler takes her time.
Liam is discharged from the hospital with the provision that he be supervised for 48 hours,  a task which is shared by Barbara, a thoroughly likeable character IMHO, and his daughters.  
He's no longer leading a solitary existence; Kitty is spendig the summer with him, and the other daughters plus Barbara drop in on him - several of them unexpectedly at the time, when Xanthe dily asks whether your father is having a salon.  "Liam is laughing a lot more thee days", we read. Isn't that progress?

Will there will be major changes in Liam's life ?After all, how likely is it that at his age he  decides to utilize his potential?  But this is just a story.  We don't  have to take it personally. We don't have to get angry with him.  He's clearly not a go-getter. e
As Sheila said,  this is light fare.  I too  like more "substantive" books, even so I'm an unabashed fan of Anne Tyler.  I like her style,  how well she observes and describes her characters, her quiet wit.

Kidsal,  Bundy seems to have been the only colleague Liam talked with while at St. Dygfrig.  No social contacts with other teachers are mentioned.  Liam knew that  he'd eventually ask Bundy over and thank him again for his help with the move.  We now know that Bundy is black.   So "skeletal blue-black giraffe" was a hint?  Well, I missed it.

There's more to say about philosophy and the NYT article (thanks for the link, Pedln, and about our own philosophy. More soon.
 

[pedln]

Jackie, tough luck with the pick-up date.  I do hope you get hold of it sometime.  Emotional bonding – I really haven’t thought about that, but do know that I have to care about what's happening to the characters in order to like the book.  As for Liam, I want him to at least be content.

From Traude:
Could his deliberate"withdrawal" or separation, his lack of professional ambition, his disinterest in social contacts  have started with Millie's death for which he felt responsible ?

Absolutely, Traude.  I think Millie’s death has weighed heavily on him all along, ever since his neighbor said, “Mr. Pennywell, that baby has been crying all day since eight o’clock this morning.”   And Liam froze – because he knew he could have changed the outcome.  And he’s stayed partly frozen.

But his mother managed to lay a guilt trip on him before he ever met Millie.  Heaven help the poor boy if he wanted to see his father, which he had to do secretly. And then that thoughtless uncaring young man ("their" words) had the audacity to leave his mother alone when he went to college in the Mid – f - west. (Oops, Russo just snuck in.)

I'm an unabashed fan of Anne Tyler.  I like her style,  how well she observes and describes her characters, her quiet wit.

Ditto here, Traude.  I’ve enjoyed this book, also her Digging to America.  Her characters seem real to me.

I’m driving 500+ miles tomorrow for a long weekend getaway, so am trying to wrap up stuff here.  Hopefully back later with a few more thoughts before shutting down.  Otherwise I’ll look forward to all your posts while unwinding in the motel. Laptop is going too.

[gingerw]

JoanP you know how to get me to post  
My mother/my friend had a lot to do pertaining to what went on in my life as she had a friend got me the job I stayed at thirty years, in those thirty years she had me go back to the place I worked at after a nine year layoff as she bought me the car of my choice (brand new) to go back saying pay me back every  penny but no interest so I went back and paid her every penny then they wanted me to be a supervisior so when I told mom no way would I go on supervision she said you will always wonder if you could have done it well I showed her I could so stayed on till just before retireing went back in the union to retire. She told me she wish she had offered me college  as they had the money she just didn't encourage me in that.

Liam needed some one to lead/gently push him as it would have helped.  

[straudetwo]

Gingee,  that is a commendable career record!  Opportunities offered, accepted, repaid, and a job faithfully held for  three decades!!     These days a life-time job like that is almost unheard of, and so are pensions.  

Pedln, re your # 173,  how true, and you put it so well.  Theirs must have been a home without much love for Liam and sister Julia.  The  unhappiness and resentment of their mother  "lapped over" on Liam and his sister.  If the two had been closer, it might have lightened the burden both of them bore, but there was no warmth in that relationship either.  

He was fortunate that no-nonsense, capable Barbara stepped in and became his and the family's anchor.  There's little doubt that she cared for him, waited for him to open up and, when that did not happen, divorced him.  It was Barbara who "cheery, purposely" stepped in  his hospital room to take him home, carrying a grocery bag with his street clothes inside. He was glad to see her.  "She was a medium sort of woman, medium in every way. Medium length, curly brown hair, finely threaded with gray and that lipstick-only makeup style that's meant not to draw attention to itself. " A wonderful charaacterization, I think.

The NYT article by Simon Critchley, What is a Philosopher?"  was written tongue-in-cheek,  I believe, ostensibly as a send-up of philosophy and philosophers. Mr. Critchley implies - jokingly one assumes -  that perhaps there should be a health warning  that says PHILOSOPHY KILLS    

Lastly,  your question of our personal philosophy is intriguing and I'm thinking about my answer.
My goodness, 500 + miles... !  Do take care and have a wonderful week.  We'll miss you!

Deb, I saw your message after I sent off my own post.  Sorry I didn't have time to respond sooner. Thank you for being with us.

[gingerw]

Hi straudetwo and Alf.

[JoanP]

 It is really interesting to come in each morning and read through your posted thoughts as a whole.  What strikes me is this.  We are all reading the same story - told from the Point of View of Liam Pennywell - his own story of how things appear to him.  And yet, we come away with a completely different understanding of the man.  Has Anne Tyler  confused us, influenced us - by providing too much - or too little information?  Has she purposely done this?

Jackie asks if we think the author has missed the mark.   She asks if  Liam incites either indifference or emotional rejection?  We seem to be divided on this issue.
 

"An emotional bonding is necessary for me to fully enter into the fictional world being created in each book."  jackie

"But this is just a story.  We don't  have to take it personally."  Traudee

Can we enjoy a story if we can't bond with the main character?   Do you recognize any of the characters, enough to bond with them?  Or to care what happens to them?  (What did you think of Tyler's portrayal of Eunice?  That was the one that really got to me.)

Andy is clearly angry with Liam-  because he lacks the "mojo"? Sheila, you seem to feel the same way - - the story, Liam,  doesn't seem to be going anywhere. .  Yet you like and accept him.
  
Deb, I'm eager to hear your impressions as you get further into the book.  After reading these early chapters, you sense the same lack of energy and detachment that led Andy to identify signs of depression.  The important thing for us to decide - is whether there was movement.  Has Liam changed in any way since the beginning, or was there a change in him, even a subtle change.

Traudee reminds usthat Tyler's novels rarely have much of a plot - but that subtle changes do take place.  It seems to me that the changes here are so subtle that we are likely to miss them.  Liam let go of his last chance for happiness - when he sent Eunice packing.  He tells us that himself.  So what's changed?  He's alone again.  We're going to have to work a bit harder to discern the changes that have taken place before we can decide whether Anne T. has missed the mark.  (Maybe we can make some suggestions to the author about what she needed to do to bring this story up to the level of her other novels.

[JoanP]

Who asked "what made Liam such s dull boy in the first place?"  It was someone here.  Millie's death, yes, he is forever guilty that he was a bad husband.  Pedln quotes the reason  " because he knew he could have changed the outcome."  Do you believe that's true?  Could he have done more to bring his "golden girl out of her depression?  Is it post partum depression?  I'm not positive, but think I remember that he took her for counselling, but that went nowhere.  Just pills.  Liam seems too quick to blame himself.

Do we  need to go back further to understand his meekness, his acceptance of everyone else's opinion of him, his feeling of inadequacy when it came to women.  Let's look closer at MOM.  Don't  most boys' problems (or lack of them)  with women  come from their relationship with MOM?  I have to say, I absolutely loved Tyler's rendering of Liam's mom. Her, no, not her, but Tyler's portrayal.   And then DAD, and his reaction to life with mom and the kids.   Can we possibly understand Liam's mindset if we don't understand where he's coming from?   We don't hear much about Julia.  Didn't she come from the same background?  She certainly doesn't have the same problems Liam has - even with her total recall.

Was it too late by the time Barbara came onto the scene? Ginger thinks " Liam needed some one to lead/gently push him as it would have helped."
Yours was  one of the strong, influential mothers - we haven't heard much about them here.  She didn't understand the word "can't," did she?

 Barbara sounded like just the help Liam  needed.  She wasn't needy, she wasn't one of those "sad women" - nor was she one of those pushy "picnic ladies".  Why didn't that work?  
I just loved Tyler's characterization of Barbara.  Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Traudee.  

Lots to talk about today -
 Safe home, Pedln!  You wouldn't believe this travelling lady - long distances, alone! We'll keep the light on for you...

[pedln]

Re: Millie

She took an overdose.  She was a huddled mass under the blankets on the sofa when Liam left around 7 am, for his study carrel in the library.  He could have checked on her, woken her, spoke with her -- but he didn't.  He might have been able to save her, and that's something he doesn't want to think about.

JoanP, I think you mean Julia -- Liam's sister. She hadn't seen her father in over forty years. Wouldn't even visit him in the hospital when he had a heart attack.  Sad for her, sad for the father who hasn't a clue the effect HIS actions had on his children.

East and West coasters due here momentarily. Traffic coming here was horrible and a lot of very rude drivers who speed up when you want to pass.

[bookad]

hi there

well I finished the book

...I would be interested in knowing more about the author ...how she came up with her inspiration to write something like this book!

when I think of Liam and his behaviour the word that comes to mind is 'numb'....he almost was able to move out of this state during his relationship with Eunice....but succumbed again to 'whatever state of mind' kept leading him to 'numbness'...but he seems almost content with his life & aloneness...oblivious to another frame of mindset; yet when others intrude upon this state...he gets a bit of a break from his usual frame of mind----but is happy to revert to his habitual pattern of behaviour as soon as they leave ....

I would really like to know the how the author came to write this type of book!

--once read a book of short stories, all by different authors (not my favourite reading material as a rule)...& each story was preceded by a paragraph or two on how each particular author came to write his/her particular story...it was very enlightening & gave a perspective to play around with when reading...

Deb

[JoanP]

There you are, Deb!  We've been keeping the lights on for you and Pedln so to move on the the final phase of the discussion of Anne Tyler's book - the rating and the evaluation!

You've asked an interesting question - but the answer is not an easy one as this author gives so few interviews - doesn't believe in them.  (Doesn't do book tours either.)

The best we were able to come up with over the course of this discussion concerning the author's inspiration from one of her rare interviews:

"One night after I'd gone to bed I heard the house creaking downstairs, but I was too sleepy to investigate.  Then I started thinking about how if it were a burglar intent on beaning me, I wouldn't know anyway till I woke up the next morning.  And so: no psychological trauma!  Except I'd probably try for days to figure out what had happened.  (Though perhaps not for as many days as Liam.)

 Why that thought gave birth to a whole novel, I'm not sure.  I do know that I have been fascinated by the subject of memory all my life.  Now that I'm in my sixties, with instances of Alzheimer's disease on both sides of my family, my biggest fear is that I'll end up with no memory whatsoever.  Yet I agree with Liam that there is such a thing as remembering too much, and I half admire his resolute refusal to dwell on his past."

[JoanP]

"When I think of Liam and his behaviour the word that comes to mind is 'numb'....but he seems almost content with his life & aloneness"  Deb

That's an interesting observation, Deb.  The state of "numbness" keeps Liam from dwelling on whatever has sent him into such a state in the first place, leaving him a "puddle of a man."  It isn't really clear whether it was his childhood, his sad mother, his father who abandonned the home in search of happiness - or the loss of his golden girl, Millie.  (I was interested to learn that their daughter's name, Xanthe, means "golden".)  Did you get the impression that his life would have been quite different had things worked out with Millie?  Was there an adequate explanation of what led to her suicide?  Was it Liam's detachment? 

[JoanP]

This is always an exciting part of the discussion of any book - YOUR thoughts on what the author has achieved.  Don't hold back - (AT has declined the opportunity to participate in this discussion - as anticipated )

Overview, Rate the Book:
 
1.  "I am not especially unhappy, but see no particular reason to go on living."  Is Anne Tyler descibing Everyman here or just one depressed individual who found his life "heartbreaking"  and his retirement years lonely?

2.  What do you think was Anne Tyler's message to the reader with this novel?

3. Ignoring your opinion of the book as a whole, was there any part, any scene, or any character who made a particular impression or tickled your fancy?

4. All things considered, how many stars would you give this book, five being the highest?  *****

[pedln]

Tickled my fanc y -- just makes me smie.

It'sChristmas and Louise and family are there.  Jpnah brings out his present for Liam --  bookmark

Liam waxes many kind thougts and tells Jonah how much he needed one

"Told ya", says Jonah to his mom'

"It was really supposed to be a parent present", saif Louise.

"Too bad," says Liam, "I't mine now."
Oh I love it, the two least ones have asserted their power.

Headin home , the final stretch today.

[bookad]

these are quotes from within the book that captured my interest as far as the personality of Liam goes;

pg 215 "Was it possible, ....he was being too rigid, too moralistic, too narrow minded? That the greater good was to make the very most of their time here on earth?"

pg 205 "...your future depends on your past. It keeps shifting about; it's not carved in stone.  It keeps bouncing off whatever happened earlier."

pg 262-3 Barbara's thoughts
"...you never argue with people's poor opinions of you. They can say the most negative things-that you're clueless, that you're unfeeling-and you say, 'Yes, well, maybe you're right.' ...."

Liam goes on to say  " I just....don't seem to have the hang of things, somehow. It's as if I've never been entirely present in my own life."

Liam seems to self absorbed...he seems to let loose for short periods of time; for instance babysitting for his grandson, an almost involvement with Eunice; but then he seems rather glad to let everything go & get back to his 'aloneness' and inward dwellings about 'this that & everything.'

As far as Millie goes, I wonder if Liam is as he always was,  behaviour wise, and Millie's hopes declined as their relationship progressed, what with Liam's incapacity to put more oomph into their relationship--could it be he was more active in his imagination, but poor in communicating any substantial feelings?

If you have communicated with Anne Tyler, I wonder if she is reading these thoughts & it would be interesting to know her feelings related to these....maybe she has a fan base online...think I'll see if I can search it out.

This is not my type of book...did read 'the accidental tourist' ..interesting scenario the main character writes about locations, but rarely goes touring, doesn't really care for that lifestyle...I may try another of her books...do any of you have one you might recommend ...again I did not really care for Noah's compass....his life seemed to go where outside events took him...and outside events gave him momentum over his own inertia!!!!!

I enter all the books I have read into www.readersopinions.com and I would give Noah's Compass a 4 out of 10 on that site

Deb

[JoanP]

Pedln - drive safe now.  Loved the bookmark present too.  Liam and Jonah have reached an understanding, haven't they?  Because they were paying attention to one another?  The same thing seems to have happened at the Texture Table in the Preschool. The little ones liked him because he spoke to them with a "grumbly voice."  I don't think Miss Sarah was paying attention to what he was saying to them though.  He seems to have been communicating with them on a level she didn't appreciate.
My lingering question - are we leaving Liam at a good place?

 Debbie, a four out of ten would equal two stars out of five by our ranking - I think my math is right - **
Rather astonishing for one of Anne Tyler's books, no? I'll be interested to hear what others have to say. I don't think I'm going to rate it that low - (though I think it was perhaps too personal a reaction to talk about for a month!  A better selection for a month-long discussion is A.S. Byatt's huge "Possession."  I hope to see many of you in that discussion starting in a week.)

"could it be he was more active in his imagination, but poor in communicating any substantial feelings?" Debbie

 I think you are on to something here.  And maybe that's the reason I was able to relate to Liam.  I also took a sober message from this book - about an "unexamined life", about the future...and how time is flying (running out?) - and what I want to accomplish in the time I have.

I think you'll find a huge fan base, but you will also find that Anne Tyler stays away from those discussions. If you find anything of interest, please let us know here?  Though she was notified of this discussion through her publicist, I would doubt that she pays attention to discussions, articles and reviews.  In one of her rare interviews, I read that of all of her 18 books, she would like to see the first three taken out of circulation.  I thought that was funny...but understood what she was saying.
It is her Breathing Lessons   that won  recognition - the Pulitzer. Personally, I liked the Homesick Restaurant.

[salan]

Whew!  I am glad we will soon be finished discussing this book.  Joan, I agree, it probably wasn't book enough to warrent a month long discussion.  I like Anne Tyler and was looking forward to reading/discussing this book, but......
There are several quotes/passages that stood out for me.  In chapter 7 "Sometimes I think my life is just drying up & hardening, like one of those mouse carcusses you find beneath the radiator".  Now that is a vivid image!
In chapter 12---"All along, it seems, he had experienced only the most glancing relationship with his own life.  He had dodged the tough issues, avoided the conflicts & gracefully skirted adventure".  That seems a pretty apt description of Liam's life to me.
Chapter 13---The trouble with discarding bad memories was that evidently the good ones went with them.

Using my personal system of rating this book.  I give it a 2.5 out of 5.
Sally

[Mippy]

Sally ~  interesting rating, I'd give this novel a 6 out of 10.
Some of her books get a 9 out of 10, but perhaps that's too off-subject.
              
Why not a lower rating?  The character Liam sticks in my mind, even though I ordinarily don't like people who are so passive.   Tyler has a knack for painting characters who brush up against our memories, reminding us of someone we either liked or disliked.   But she seems to always make us remember someone! Does that make Tyler the actual rememberer?

Have to stop now ... yesterday bought an unfinished bookcase which is setting in the garage, calling me to get going and put on the stain, stat!    

[pedln]

from DEb
pg 205 "...your future depends on your past. It keeps shifting about; it's not carved in stone.  It keeps bouncing off whatever happened earlier."

Deb, I’m glad you pointed that out, from Liam’s step-mother’s comments. She’s so right – your future does depend on your past, and that’s one reason why I think you can’t plan your entire retirement (let alone y our life).  You can set goals, and aim for them, but at some point your future becomes your past.

You call Liam self-absorbed.  I wonder.  Perhaps he’s just alone.  Or perhaps self-absorbed leads to aloneness.

2.  What do you think was Anne Tyler's message to the reader with this novel?

from JoanP
 I also took a sober message from this book - about an "unexamined life", about the future...and how time is flying (running out?) - and what I want to accomplish in the time I have.

Does there have to be a message?  Or is the author simply telling us about people and what they want or expect from life.   All through this discussion, which I have enjoyed because of all of you, another book was running through my mind – probably familiar to many of  you – Lois Lowry’s children’s/YA novel The Giver.  This is about a planned society – from climate control to birth, to first haircut, to first bicycles, to marriage and eventually to “release.”  All planned by the powers that be.  It’s all meant to be lovely because no one has to make any decisions.  Everything is planned out for them.  And the Giver, of the title, is the one who holds the memories of what life was like before the beginnings of this society.

From Sally”He had dodged the tough issues, avoided the conflicts & gracefully skirted adventure".  That seems a pretty apt description of Liam's life to me.

Well, Millie’s death was a tough issue and no doubt changes had to be me.  I’m not sure why he gave up his PHD work, but assume he returned to Baltimore because he’d get some support from his sister and mother.

From Mippy
 Tyler has a knack for painting characters who brush up against our memories, reminding us of someone we either liked or disliked.   But she seems to always make us remember someone! Does that make Tyler the actual rememberer?

She surely does do that.  Good point, Mippy.  I think that's why I like Tyler so much.  Whether I like or dislike they characters, they are people I can relate to.  Some of their experiences are mine.

Did you buy a new bookcase to hold all your NEW books?    

Back later.

[Mippy]

Yes, Pedln, that's right !     

[JoanP]

Pedln's back!  Safe and sound...with a good question -

Does there have to be a message?

 
I suppose the answer to that question depends on your answer to this one -
Is Anne Tyler descibing Everyman here or just one depressed individual who found his life "heartbreaking"  and his retirement years lonely?

If she is describing Everyman as he/she goes into retirement, then I suppose there is a message attached.  If an individual who has chosen lonely last years, then there are not necessarily lessons tor the rest of us to take from it - just pity for this individual....

I'm interested in your ratings of this book - and especially your reasons for doing so.
I guess I'll translate Mippy's rating of  a 6 out of ten as 3 stars?  And then there's Salan's 2.5 stars and Debbie's 2  - So right now we're at 2.75.
Sally - I agree with this - "The trouble with discarding bad memories was that evidently the good ones went with them."   Lots of insight here - makes you think of lots of things you wish you could forget~ BUT if it means forgetting everything, then maybe not.

[bookad]

Anne-thank you for your suggestions of other books by Anne Tyler to try
will pull out a couple from the library to try on my next visit, --usually what draws my attention in libraries is the non-fiction area, and am at loss to find captivating fiction books to read (mind you am getting quite a number of interesting titles & authors to keep in mind from the 'around the world' area of the book groups in senior-net)

if it hadn't been for the reading group here and the interesting thoughts put forth would not have kept reading this book past 100 pages or so...too many interesting books to go thru to spend time on one that doesn't keep me with it----and thats what is so wonderful for belonging to a reading group; all those extra perceptions, thoughts  & ideas to play around with
if Anne Tyler is so popular she must be very a very gifted author to have kept up her readership thru all the novels she has written, gives me incentive to try an earlier book by her but I stay with my rating on this book as a 2 out of 5

Deb

[straudetwo]

Let me make another attempt to explain my reaction  to, and indeed my enjoyment oft,his book.

First,  if I remember correctly,  it was Jude who mentioned everyman- a splendid reference,  dating back fo a fifteenth century English morality play (and a similar Flemish one called "Homulus").

A modern version was written by the Austrian novelist, dramatist, librettist Hugo von Hoffmannsthal (1874-1929). The original title was  Jedermann, das Spiel vom Sterben des reichen Mannes = Everyman, or the Play about the Death of the Rich Man.  The play was first performed in 1911 and directed by the famous Max Reinhardt.  

 Since then (except for the war years), the play has been continuously performed and was  as a highlight of the International Salzburg Festival , wnich was  co-founded by von Hoffmannsthal.  The summer of 2010 promises to be an extraordinary event : it is the 90th anniversary of the Salzburg Festival, that will involve the entire town.

*To refer first to # 189,   where Pedln asked (and I paraphrase) "Does there have to be a nessage?"
There does not,    is my opinion.
Nor is there a message in this book IMHO.

I've never looked for a message in any of Tyler's books - and I read them all - and what message, pray tell,  could there be drawn from - to cite just one examaple - Ladder if Years?   where the protagonist  up and leaves her family on the Maryland seashore one fine summer's  day without much more than her towel?  After 20 or was it 21 years of marriage she believes ehe was taken for granted...

*Liam was hardly "everyman".  Tyler depicts :quirky" characters,   ddoesn't she?  
Ir d we beed to explore the meanign of the term further?

*Liam was not depressed - though my reasoning obviously was unpersuasive,    but  he's quite possibly REpressed, or so I believe.

*Yes, yes, yes. He was a loner,   sensitive (a trait rather rare in a male),  acutely conscious of his mother's unhappiness, and his father's  leaving the family for the younger femme fatale in the office,   and riddled with (many unnecessary) guilt feelings.  
Of course, it's ironic that Liam lives in this high-powered Beltway environment, totally uninterested in his "potential".
And Liam was not a loser - from my perspective.
Eunice comes closer to theat mark.  
 bit of a disappointment.

*Lastly,  how could we even THINK,  let alone TELL  the author  that she is off her mark? (and  just where exactly is that mark?) ?

*Also, in all these long wonderful years, we have never ever striven for consensus  -- afe we changing things?

In sum,  have we really read the same book ?
Traude

[winsummm]

everyone:who is bored with their dail life is apt to fantecize howw it could be MAYBE but then they just move on doing what they hav to do. In tylers books some of her protagonists actually ACT OUT . . .do what they will as in the ladder book.  Liam attempts to have a romance and it changes his expectations for a while until Eunice turns out to be a fraud and he lets it go, unwilling to compromise, settling for the actuality of the chair and  his books, something of which he had always conceived as his likely retirement.

So . . . tyler writes about the human condition and DREAMs.
claire

[winsummm]

JoanG I agree. education is something that I was into after I was an adult. I went to ucla immediately after high school and even my art courses put a lot of unwelcome pressure on me but I stayd for four and a half years art and psychology magers back and forth without ever picking up the PAPER, not even the AA degree. I left to get married and only returned on my own to commuity college, as an adult. it is more like a trade school and really good for an artist with litho classes etc.   I learned all about commercial art and architecture and literature and photography and automobile mechanics. . .and anything that  drew me even a course  on greek myths and loved it. I've been doing that ever since. now THAT is an education.

The only thing I ever did that was worth money was clerical and real estate sales, neither of which were financially rewarding.  I kept wanting to change the systems in the real estate business for a better system of remuneration as in salaries, or consulting fees but not commissions. Commissions are  promises that are seldom paid. it is a terrible way to make a living. I liked the legal aspects of it and property exploration. But I am a terrible sales person.  I cannot tell anyone how to live or how to choose a home or ask them to spend  so much money for MY benefit. Most of my associates were greedy grabbers with nice personalities.  AWFUL.
claire

claire

[straudetwo]

Re # 194.  Claire,  I hear you.  I could not agree more, in, every respect.  Thank you.

[JoanP]

It is wonderful reading of your reactions to this book!  Consensus???  Not here.  And especially not about this book.  ~ Though you seem to rate Noah higher than most of the others, Traudee. (Do you care to rate it with stars, five being the highest? )
But again, we are not trying to reach a consensus.   We have each been describing our personal reactions to the book and are finding that they are very different.  I find Everyman in Tyler's description  of Liam's response to the  process of aging  - and retiring.  But then we will all REACT to these challenges in our own way.     Claire puts it very well, I think ~

 "Tyler writes about the human condition and DREAMs."

The question I'll take from this book is a rather simple one - what will become of my own dreams? Will I act on them, or let them go because they require too much of an effort...
Can we agree that Liam made an attempt to ACT - was actually considering a marriage to this young woman, already married - chaotic as it would have been - but decided against it for good reasons?  Even if he knew he might have been happy with her?  (Can anyone explain what those reasons were? ) 

[pedln]

Thank you, Traude, I think we’re on the same wave length –

He was a loner, and riddled with (many unnecessary) guilt feelings.   

and you have stated my feelings about this book much better than I.  Star rating – 4 out of 5 for me.  And Claire, yes, Tyler writes about the human condition, and so much is familiar.  I can still hear my eldest complaining, “I would have been grounded if I’d done that,” much like Xanthe and Louise complaining about the discipline of their younger sister.

I like Liam. I think we all know Liam, even Thoreau, who said  “Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation.”
As Bundy would say, “that’s our boy.”

But we leave Liam, content, contemplating Socrates.  He wanted  nothing, he had a chicken in the oven, a new book to read, was solvent and healthy.

And now someone will read the last line and say, “And, but?”

[pedln]

Can we agree that Liam made an attempt to ACT - was actually considering a marriage to this young woman, already married - chaotic as it would have been - but decided against it for good reasons?  Even if he knew he might have been happy with her?  (Can anyone explain what those reasons were? )

JoanP, I think he really did not want to be his father.  And there’s something that we have not touched on in this discussion (please correct me if I’m wrong) – this issue of “happiness” at any cost, regardless of the consequences. 

And now I'd like to say that having ACTED once, having found a love, a new apartment, a new job, renewed relations with his family, he is free to ACT again.  But that would probably be stretching a point and putting words into the author's mouth.