Noah's Compass by Anne Tyler ~ May Book Club Online -

[serenesheila]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

 

Noah's Compass ~  May Book Club Online
Everyone is invited!

Anne Tyler's Noah's Compass was SeniorLearn's first  choice for  our May Book Club Online discussion.  We do hope you will join us in what should be a meaningful, worthwhile experience.  Tyler's protagonist, Liam Pennywell, tells his young grandson that Noah wasn't going anywhere in the Ark.  "He was just trying to stay afloat. He was just bobbing up and down, so he didn't need a compass, or a rudder, or a sextant."  Liam Pennywell  is troubled by his inability to remember anything about the first night that he moved into his new, spare condominium,  after being laid off at 61 from a job he never liked. All he knows when he wakes up the next day in the hospital is that his head is sore and bandaged.  For Liam, the most distressing part of his memory loss was that it felt like he was losing control. And yet this novel is described as "gently humorous."  Really. We all know a Liam, the novel suggests.   In fact, there may be a little of Liam in each of us. Just trying to stay afloat.  Please plan to join us as we float along together.

Discussion Schedule May 1-2 ~     Chapter 1 May 3-7 ~     Chapters 2 & 3 May 8-14 ~   Chapters 4,5,6 May 15-21 ~  Chapters 7,8,9 May 22-28 ~  Chapters 10,11,12

 

Some Questions for Your Consideration

May 1 - 7  Chapter 1 - 3

1.  Is it a bad thing that that Liam Pennywell got laid off from teaching fifth graders at St. Dyfrig's?  Do you think he had been a good teacher?

2. What do you think of Anne Tyler's  descriptive writing  style in this first chapter?  How do you picture Liam's friend, Bundy, as a  "blue-black giraffe"?

3. What did you like about Liam's new apartment?  Would you have rented it?  

4.  Can you tell whether Liam is looking forward to the next stage in his life, his retirement?  Or does he consider this stage the end of the line?  How do you look upon your retirement years?

5.  Why do you think Liam is so concerned about not remembering anything about the break-in?  He’s been told several times that this is very normal, and he doesn’t seem to have any other memory problems.  Have you ever suffered a loss of memory following an injury like this?

6.  Latin scholars, did you spot the latin phrase in Chapter 2?  What was its meaning?

7.  How do the  women in his life, his three daughters, his ex-wife and his sister differ in their actions and attitudes towards Liam?

8.  What is your opinion of Liam?  Does it change, as you learn more about him?  (Is it unusual for a 60 year old man not to have a  computer,  a cell phone or even a television?)

9. Why did Dr. Morrow make time in his busy schedule to see Liam right away?  What is the neurologist's prognosis?   Just what does Liam expect of someone he calls a “rememberer?”

10. Do you think it is unusual or abnormal for Liam to want to remember the attack?   What clues has he learned at this point?  

Relevant Links:
Amazon.com. - Used copies available;
Bruce Frankel's What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life?  
Anne Tyler's Baltimore;

  

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln

Sheila:
CLAIRE,yes I live in California.  Jusat outside of Sacramento.  So, I am about 80 miles away from the ocean.  I was born, and spent my first 13 years in Long Beach.  I still miss the ocean.  One of my favorite spots is on the North Coast.  But, I am no longer up to traveling.

What is the name of the book which you stayed up all night reading?

Sheila

[JoanP]

Good morning!
 Isn't it fascinating to read about how others of us have adjusted to retirement years?  I think I agree with you, Claire - sixty is too young to be considering retirement.   As you put it, Liam is "loafing."  It seems to me he has been putting off living his life for a long time.  Evelyn, I agree with you too though - he's relieved to put his teaching years behind him and get back to his early interest in philosophy.  Notice these the philosophers are the only books he's kept.  That's really downsizing!  Sheila thinks Liam would "blossom"  if in the company of other philosophers. Wouldn't that be a good story?

If he had a Kindle, he wouldn't even have had to keep them.  Do you believe that?  Thank you Sheila and Claire for the Kindle information.  You can see chapter divisions - you can mark your place in the book.  So you can see where Chapter 3 ends and 4 begins?  Good! Is anyone else reading the book on a Kindle?
Claire - chapter 13?  You are just about finished - but hopefully you will continue to share your observations on these chapters as we go along - they are  delightful.

So, do we all agree with Claire and with Sheila - that Anne Tyler is communicating the idea that Liam is too young for the life of solitude he is planning?  What do you think was wrong with his plan - before the assault, of course...  

I came across this site -  10 Tips for a Happy Retirement Living.
After reading these tips - I'm not sure Liam was on the right path - maybe that hit on the head was the wake up call he needed?

Need morning coffee - lots to talk about today!

[JoanP]

Liam's isoltation is emphasized when he wakes up in the hospital, isn't it?  He appears so vulnerable and alone - no clothes, no wallet, no phone. The phone scene, though humorous,  was all too real - is it true that you don't automatically have a phone by your hospital bed anymore?  I guess this is because most people have cell phones? (do you?)  Liam requested a phone several times  - never received it - but then was billed for one. Try to decipher hospital bills!!!  Anne Tyler knows what she's writing about!

Octavia - do you think Liam's daughters feel free to make fun of him, because  they are so used to doing it - because he hasn't seemed to mind in the past? Is this the way Barbara talks to him?  Underneath it all, are  they really concerned about him - and his choices?  Though Liam is happy with his downsized apartment, his girls are clearly not.  I'm not sure at this point whether they are concerned for him, or whether he embarrasses them.

Did you like any of the daughters?  Did any of the three exhibit true affection for him? (thinking of Lear)

What did you think of his ex, Barbara?  She certainly seemed to know him well.  Very competant - can't see why she ever married him, though.  They don't seem to match!  Do you remember the description of her dancing "like a wild woman- hair flying in all directions?    Am I mistaken - was this Barbara?  And was she dancing with our Liam?

[JoanP]

Why didn't the police even check for fingerprints - I'm as puzzled as you are Octavia, why they weren't more sympathetic.  My guess they were used to investigating such break-ins - and since nothing was stolen and the victim not seriously injured.  Liam doesn't feel this way, though.  As Sally says, he feels part of his life has been stolen from him.

Sally,. I can  completely understand why Liam  needs to remember what happened - how else can he return to this apartment?  Didn't youngest daughter express the same concern?  I guess I'm wondering why everyone else is telling Liam to just forget about the whole thing.  

[pedln]

Good morning, everyone.  Well, it seems we all like Liam, but we wish he had a bit more get up and go?  Be more like us?  Hmmmmmmmm.

I read those tips for retirement, Joan.  Do we really need a plan?  For me, one of the greatest joys of retirement is being unscheduled.  Being free to do what you want to do, when you want to do it.  That being said, and being in control of my mind (compos mentis -- help me out here Mippy), I'm off to Meals on Wheels.  (On my schedule because I put it there.)

Back later.  BTW, I think Kitty, so far, is the most likable of the daughters.  At least, she doesn't seem to jump on him as much as the other two.

Interesting description of Barbara, according to Liam -- a medium sort of woman.  Is he saying non-descript.  And I don't appreciate his reference to Barbara's stodgy school librarian    job.

[Mippy]

Hi, Pedln ~  you are indeed correct, according to the dictionary:
compos mentis:   being in full possession of one's mind

Hospital stays are often disorientating, even if there was no violence involved.   Just sleeping in a hospital room is disturbing to many people, so no wonder Liam was upset.   I agree the cop was mean or gruff, but perhaps that had been Tyler's or her friends' experience with Baltimore police over the years.

I don't think Liam would be suicidal under the circumstances, but yes, he'd likely be confused and annoyed.  Do we know him well enough in the first few chapters to be sure, yet?

[winsummm]

Liam hasn't once mentioned a philosopher. I think that  his designation as one is simply a writers convenience, a way  to show that he is  THAT kind of an individual. self sufficient, intelecctual etc.  There is so much room here for him to do so. If I am near the end, I'm sill waiting for something to happen, for Tyler to utilize the richness that could be Liam who still has his books and hasn't ven openeed one. His soliturde even shuts out his major interests.  He sits with his hands on his knees and remembers.  Is it Ok if I go on ahead. I can't really separate the chapters.

WARNING a spoiler here. stop reading unless you already have finished the book.

I have a hard time with book clubs for this very reason. Maybe I should wait to the end and simply write a review.

Claire
Kitty is his most pleasant character and Barbara is acceptable but all the members of his family treat him like a cipher, a thing to be used for baby sitting, occasion ice box rades or recipient of charity.. It is still at an end for me. I keep expecting Eunice who is very aggressive and wants to have a real LIFE, to turn up  ready to get  together again.

back to the book.

[winsummm]

I read the ten tips to retirement article and  it isn't helpful since it is disorganized, wanders a field and is writen bye someone who still feels physically able to make choices  a head.  Mine  all have to do with my being up to a given activity on a given day.  Under such circumstances committing to an outside job or group activity isn't possible.

 IN addition I've become very selective with  whom I want to spend my waining years.  So far the most stimulating compay is right here.  Orange Co;unty California is very conservative, even anti-intellectual due to so much interest in religion, . . bible study classes abound. My young helper friend, age fifty eight is a dear person but looks startled every time belief is mentioned since I haven't one, and her life is based upon the activities of her church.  She naturally thinks I am like her.  So when I do mention it it is to ask her for information about her current bible class since I know almost nothing about the subject and she is happy to share. She teaches children and takes continuing education in the subject herself. The intent of her class is to use the stories toexplain the reason for  beliefs that are the background for moral and useful lives.  sheesh.  I know that anyway. Most of us do.
see this is even a place to talk about atheism. vs. believing in a higher power  . Liam as an agnostic?

The end of life can be very different in terms of choices , accepting that is the first  part of planning for it. PLans are just not all that practical when you never know if there will be a future to plan FOR.  proposition??? a no no.  Some religious folk are actually planning to see their dead relatives in the Heavenly place  they will enter after death.

Here also  is a place  for Jack Kavocian to peek in.  This book does offer much that is relevant to our lives.  soooo?

LIam has a world of philosophers  thoughts on this subject but we are still waiting.  Tyler really did miss the boat.

[winsummm]

 now to plan for today. And I will probably change it as I go along.  That is the trouble. NOthing I do or plan to do matters. It is a kind of freedom but also a reason to be depressed. "I don't matter"

The activities mentioned are distractions from this sad truth, but in themselves "don't matter.  Even the ones that are helpful to others don't matter since SOMEONE will do it if it is really necessary - -  sigh. Keeping an eye on what is happening out THERE in the world seems to matter to me. So I am POLITICAL which doesn't work very well in orange county california where others are just the opposite.  sigh
claire

[JoanP]

Mippy, I'm beginning to think reading Anne T's novels is like peeling an onion.  We begin to smell the strong onion smell as each layer comes off -  We know some things about Liam - but surely will learn more as we go on.

Have you ever wondered where she gets the ideas for her rather eccentric characters?  Last week I came across this site, an interview - thought that was an interesting comment about Anne T's characters -
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/americas/in-search-of--anne-tyler-in-baltimore-602287.html

"Those quirky eccentrics and bickering oddball families in her books are not a complete invention. Tyler, who lives unobtrusively among the people she writes about, has a gift for capturing the palpable atmosphere of Baltimore's neighbourhoods and Baltimoreans."

You mean if I go to Baltimore, I'll find Anne Tyler characters in the flesh?

In the opinion of some, Baltimore is a living Anne Tyler novel: full of peculiar citizens and strange, inbred traditions. The city is an amalgam of north and south, owing partly to Maryland's historic role as a slave-owning state that stayed in the Union. Anne Tyler herself is a hybrid of north and south. Born in Minneapolis in 1941, she grew up in North Carolina. As a writer, her sense of place, character and language are southern, but she observes from the point of view of an outsider.

 http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/americas/in-search-of--anne-tyler-in-baltimore-602287.html

Claire, you make a very very good point.  It is probably impossible to make a list of what will make a retiree "happy."  You can follow those "tips' - watch your diet, volunteer, do all those things, but life has a way of hitting you over the head and messing up all carefully laid plans.  Perhaps the secret is expecting the unexpected.  Like Liam, look forward to the next day with curiosity, because you never know...

You mentioned philosophers - I thought Liam did refer to some of them by name in the first chapter when he was putting away the books he had saved.  - I only recognized one of them - Epictetus- a Greek Stoic.  Here are a bunch of his quotes -  
 http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/epictetus.html

The one I liked best because it describes Liam, I thought -

"Freedom is the right to live as we wish."

Pedln, I think that Kitty is the least judgemental of her father and the way he has chosen to live his life. -  She does put in her two cents on his new apartment.  I agree with her - I don't think Liam is safe there.  Even if he locks the patio door.

[joangrimes]

I have beentrying to post here ever since the first of May.  We have had terrible nthings happening in my life... like my 47 year old daughter having total knee replacement surgery today, along with other family things. My does that sound familar for a retired old lady.Joan Grimes

[Octavia]

JoanP, yes I do think the girls have got away with making fun of him, because he hasn't stopped them. Isn't there a saying that if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got?
I tend to think that it's something to do with his first wife Millie. He thinks of their marriage as a failure. I think losing Millie shook him up badly After her death he wanted 'a plain woman'. In my notes I've written that not remembering her face, almost seemed a plus to him. Can't quickly find it, but that's what I thought.
As to his marrying Barbara, with her wild streak(or exuberant?) I don't think he was always this  proper. he was quite relaxed about Damien's pot smoking, probably seeing it as a transient teenage thing.
I think he wanted to contain Barbara, worried she might go too far, and that translated as timid and straitlaced. Barbara gave up on him, but maintained her affection for him.
Or maybe I'm imagining too much?
Retirement. A gift of time to do things for ourselves. So much of a woman's life is taken up with care-giving.

[pedln]

Mippy, glad to see you here, and JoanG.  Joan, I hope your daughter’s surgery went smoothly and that she recoups quickly.  My public health daughters tell me knee repl.acement surgery is one of the most successful surgeries.  Good track record.

Thinking back to last Thanksgiving weekend, spent in Baltimore with daughter and friend.  Loved it.  We’re on one of the piers and there’s a guy of indeterminent age, his bike parked nearby, and of course we all think he’s wonderful because he’s reading Henning Mankell (Wallendar) and the NY Times.  But who’s the quirky one here?  My daughter says, to this perfect stranger,  “May I ask you something inappropriate?”  And he says, “Oh, nothing is inappropriate.”  “Well,” says she, “My friend and I have a friend  we think would like you and that you would like her.”  E-mails exchanged, etc.  Actually they did get together – went to a park or museum or some such.  But, he’s in Baltimore, she’s in New York.  He’s writing a book.

Liam’s whole family seems a bit strange.  At least I don’t understand them.  Granted, he’s not anyone’s responsibility, and they’re not particularly close, but if they can criticize him, accuse him of carelessness, etc, the least some of them can do is stick around for a while when he comes home from the hospital, make up his bed, and leave something in the fridge for his supper.  Instead he has to fix up something for himself and for Kitty.

[Octavia]

I think Kitty is good for Liam because like a typical teenager, she's self centred and doesn't pander to his hangups. I see his obsession with petty details in a lot of people, especially my step-father, who has few interests and too much time on his hands.
 Kitty's like a fresh breeze through his mind, no self pity allowed.
No phones in our public hospitals, but then we aren't paying for our care. I left home in an ambulance when I broke my hip, but if anyone rang, a nurse would bring their call in to me on a mobile. Later my own mobile was brought in.

[Aberlaine]

I just got my copy of the audiobook sent to me by my library.  Once I download it and figure where to save it, I'll be back to discuss the story.  Sounds interesting.

I retired six years ago due to incompatibility issues with my new supervisor.  And because I had developed fibromyalgia during the three years that I grieved terribly for my deceased husband.  Except for a few years without much money, I'm glad I retired.  I'll be back to let you know what I've done and how I planned for retirement.  For now, I need to get Noah's Compass downloaded and listened to.

Nancy

[Mippy]

Nancy ~  Nice to read your post.  You bring up planning for retirement.  That emboldens me to talk about mine.
First, those 10 tips  ...  were kind of annoying.   When I was 50 I didn't ask for tips on how to live between 50 and 60, so why would I want tips on how to live between 60 and 70?   ...  no answer expected    

Retirement is strange for me.  I am very active in Garden Club, but I never have enough to do; if I spend the whole morning gardening, for example, I'm so tired I fall asleep reading the newspaper after lunch, even if lights are on and lawn mowers outside are noisy.   Then at 5 a.m. in the dark and quiet I can't sleep.   Been there, done that?

Retirement has been rescued by Latin classes with Ginny, our dear Ginny; this is the fifth year of Latin (Pedln ~  is it really five years?)   I also volunteer as a teaching assistant for the 101 class.
                  
For me, the study of Latin is a whole universe better than crossword puzzles for keeping the mind sharp.  And the social interaction in class makes all the difference.   I cannot do that kind of study on my own any more, as I did in graduate school.   For the 2 past summers I've tried to do French review, and when I get to subjunctives, I drown.  
                                
What do the rest of you do, besides gardening, walking, and volunteer work?   Any ideas would be great!

[CallieOK]

I am somewhat OBE (Overcome By Events) this week, so am lurking instead of "interpreting". 

Mippy, I thought "power naps" were just part of the routine when settling down to read the paper - or watch the news! 
I like to write - but am too lazy to work on marketing anything  - so I'm working on a Life Story album of me - with pictures.  I've gone about as far as I can...or care to... go with genealogy facts and statistics. So I have plans  to turn this information about ancestors into essays of the couples (my parents, their parents, etc.). A cousin who has traveled to various places where our ancestors lived has provided me with pictures that can be worked into those stories.
I also play bridge and occasionally give a program, lead a lesson or cohostess in a couple of women's groups that meet once or twice a month.
The one thing I'm avoiding like the plague is Being In Charge! 

[CallieOK]

One comment about Liam.   I think he did have plans for his retirement - but, like me this week, has been OBE. 

[winsummm]

retire???  from what.  LIFE?  

activities for their own sake are fun and creative.  activities to simply fill the time, marking time until WHAT  are not fulfilling enough to fill a life. I do what I enjoy when I have the energy for it at a given time. . .  read, watch TV, write lots of posts here, washington post, salon, open salon, a few friends who write back, telephone visits with others who are also going deaf which is difficult and try to go on being and becoming ME. . . that person eats too much and unwisely, likes to cook for just me? not so good . . . still can't make a simple GOOD cookie. tries to exercise as much as this arthritc bod can endure, not much. keeps up with two aging active in their fifties children thousands of miles away.  it adds up I guess. Music and art stilll out there when I  have energy and desire but I do sleep a lot days.

cable news tv CNN, MSNBC and Rachel Maddows blogg actually  the following news channels CNN, MSNBC,CNBC MONeY AND FINANCIAL NEWS,  ALL THREE C-SPAN CHANNELS, ANIMAL PLANET, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL, public channels. . . HBO WHATEVER .  I feed my head. It is getting overweight too.
have yet to pay for MOVIES ON DEMAND, but it is available.  and I've read over a hundred   Kindle books in a year and sampled  fifty moe.  The Kindle is wonderful and doesn't hurt my eyes very much and can be blown up six times in size.

now is amazon would only fill in he wholes in its library.
The eyes get very tired very fast but Joan knows that one and I suppose others do too. Hot compresses help.
 enough but there is lots of life around electronically now.  having fun.
and. . . . .occationally BLUE.
any ideas?

claire

[mrssherlock]

mark

[JoanP]

Nancy and JoanR - Welcome!
We're looking forward to hearing of your own retirement experience and so happy that you both got a copy of the book!

 As I read through all of these interesting posts on your own retirement  and what you are doing with this "gift of time," as Octavia put it, I find myself wondering what Anne Tyler is trying to tell us with her story of Liam's unplanned, unexpected "retirement."  Callie, I agree with you - Liam seems relieved- though not certain that he has "retired" - he's looking forward to getting back to his philosophers, reading and just thinking.  

In preparing for this discussion, I read a number of reviews and noted these two comments -

'In this, her 18th novel (18!) Anne Tyler  has articulated the melancholy stasis of many older people's lives," as one critic put it.
What is "melancholy stasis"?   Do you think it is the occasionally blue spells Claire writes about?  Are they part of growing older - to be expected?  Or  is "stasis" something altogether different?  Blues come and go, nostalgia perhaps?  But stasis implies something like mired in mud, doesn't it?

Another comment -
 "When Anne Tyler was just starting to write Noah’s Compass, a journalist asked her what it was about. She replied, “I’d like to write about a man who feels he has nothing more to expect from his life; but it’s anybody’s guess what the real subject will turn out to be in the end.”-

Maybe that's what retirement is all about - it's anybody's guess what the real subject of our retirement will be.  I'll bet Mippy never planned to spend 5 years learning Latin!

[JoanP]

Octavia - I find a disconnect between Liam's early years studying philosophy and where we find him now.  Something must have interupted his plans, don't you think?  We're told he "didn't get around to writing his dissertation."  And then his frail wife dies, leaving him with a two year old daughter.  We need more info to understand the reason Liam didn't go on with his thesis - and became a teacher instead. I think something went on with that first wife too that derailed his plans.  But I do sense he was always this proper - too introspective to be otherwise.  We shall see!

In rereading Chapter 2 when Liam wakes up to find himself in the hospital, I felt sorry for him all over again. He IS so alone.  "He was naked and alone and unprotected  and unloved."  But he doesn't sink in dispair at his predicament.  The very next sentence - "Well, this was just a mood he was in, created by current circumstances.  He knew it wouldn't' last. "

Do you think Liam is unreasonable in wanting to remember what happened in his apartment?  The fact that someone bit his hand tells him that he was awake and probably put up a struggle.

[JoanR]

Our so-called "retirement" has been a huge success.  I was employed in our library for many years and enjoying it while my husband had been teaching for even more years.  We discovered the fun of collecting antiques, hunting for them and also selling them so we both took early retirement and embarked on a life of really HARD work, lots of fun and adventure for 20+ years, traveling, buying, and selling at shows.  We met many interesting people and loved what we were doing. At age 83, my husband suffered colon cancer and has been unable to carry on as we had been.  He's been OK for 4 years now, thank goodness, but we have slowed down for sure!  After all I'm almost 84 now myself!  I keep busy babying the old boy, studying Latin, reading and entertaining the troops of family that show up frequently!  We bought our 100 yr. old house more than 50 years ago so the taxes are relatively low for this high-tax area.  No worries financially - anyway our wants are simple.  Our lives are full and pretty good.  I'd say we are happy.

I can't relate to Noah.  He seems so unfulfilled and one might go so far as to say "wimpy".  He acts so much older than he really is.  Of course I've already read only 1/3 of the book.  

[pedln]

JoanP  == Stasis  -- motionless, a state or condition where there is no action or progress.  You said it, mired in mud.  I’m not sure Tyler has that right about the “elderly.”  I’ve seen bits and pieces, reports, etc. before that say the elderly are among the happiest, or happier than their younger colleagues.

No doubt health and finances are determining factors.  As was mentioned here a bit ago (and please forgive me for not remembering who said it) retirement is a gift of time.  Kind of like “snow days” for kids and teachers.

This was a day full of many activities, too many perhaps, resulting in a longer than power nap that Mippy and Callie talked about.  Somewhere, the day has disappeared, and I’ve forced myself to do a few things I didn’t want to do, so now it’s time to relax.

[winsummm]

it is interesting to me how others are spending these years. MOre please.
claire

[kidsal]

Latin classes are a big part of my life.  Also keep connected with book discussion groups - online SeniorLearn and local.  Sometimes overwhelmed by too many books to read.  TV -- news/news/news - CNN, MSNBC, BBC, C-SPAN.  Also PBS and House and Westerns.  Lunch out with friends.  Spent this evening at our Hospital Board Meeting. 
Why do I regret selling my house?  First - rent payments.  Second - no garage!!!!

[serenesheila]

I have always thought of retirement as an opportunity to do what I enjoy.  My health at this time of life, prevents me from traveling.  My doctor tells me that I have spinal stenosis.  It is difficult to stand and to walk.  So, I spend most of my time at home, on a heating pad.  I am not bored, nor discontented.  Most days there are not enough hours in the day to do all that I want to do!

I do genealogy, online.  Watch the history channels, PBS, and news channels.  I read.  I agree with much of what CLAIRE had to say.  I remember seeing Western movies, as a child, and hearing our American Indians called "Savages".  Their culture was of no value to most, "white" people.  When I grew up I met, and married an Hispanic man.  My four children, are a combination of Scot/Irish, French, Chilean, and American Indian. 

My first husband and I are divorced.  Today is Cinco de Mayo, and my daughter and I joined my ex sister-in-law and her son, and his family to celebrate.  My sil cooked wondrful Mexican food for our dinner.  We had a great time.  Sil and I spent most of the time, talking.  and remembering our youth.  But, I am quite happy to be home, quiet, and looking forward to going back to my regular day of retirement.

Sheila

[Octavia]

Shiela, every 2nd person in Australia seems to be doing genealogy. This has really blossomed in the last 10 yrs or so.
One of our biggies is bowls. At a certain age one is expected to take up lawn bowls. I realise it's great for socialising and exercise, but it doesn't appeal to me. The white uniform even less. Apologies to any lawn bowlers .
I do get depressed that so many people only read the women's mags.
It's fun reading about other people's retirements.

JoanP, I did find it natural that Liam wanted to find out what happened to him. It'd be like those times you wake from a daytime sleep and feel completely disoriented. The light's dim, is it sunset or sunrise? How long have I been out to it?
But chasing down Dr. Morrow? Now I think it's getting a bit obsessive and a teeny bit weird.
He's definitely socially inept, small talk doesn't come easily to him. He's seems taken aback by Louise's chatty interaction at the doctors, and doesn't like the attention it brings.
Sometimes his detachment reminds me of autism or aspergers.

 

[JoanP]

I agree, Claire - reading how others are using this "gift of time"  is fascinating reading.  And for me, opening up many possibilities.  Really, we are limited only by our own lack of imagination, don't you agree?  I find I am responding particularly to those  who find yourselves physically limited.  You persevere and you succeed! 

"Most days there are not enough hours in the day to do all that I want to do!" Sheila

JoanR - yours is a dream retirement - turning your interest into a shared experience too.  Did you mean to say you can't relate to Noah?   I can understand the slip.  Do you think Liam and Noah had anything in common?

I can see where you would be exasperated with someone likd Liam.  He  does act older than he is, doesn't he?  "Unfulfilled" as you say.  You'd have to go way back to find where he went off the track to fulfillment.  Do you think it's too late for someone to find fulfillment?  Do you have hope for him?  Perhaps this will turn out to be Anne Tyler's underlying message?


~I want to hear more about lawn bowls and those white uniforms, Octavia...

~No garage - no shed - no basement.  I'd really have to downsize, Kidsal.  In the same house for 35 years, I'd need a dumpster parked in the driveway to downsize.

~ Pedln, I've seen those reports too about contented elders too  but can't find them to bring here.  I wonder what the unhappy elders feel when they hear these reports?

[JoanP]

Octavia, I'd like to talk more about this Dr. Morrow. I would agree it would be "a bit obsessive"  if Liam had picked up a phone book and hunted for a neurologist to verify what others have been telling him...that he is not going to remember what happened.  That he is not going to remember his assailant's face.  But to Liam it is important.  Really important.  In the past, we've seen him squelch his true feelings in Oder to avoid confrontation.  Weren't you somewhat encouraged at his determination to actually do something about how he felt instead of letting it go?  Maybe this is a breakthrough?  Even if he doesn't learn his assailant's identity, Liam seems to be acting out of the character we have seen til now, don't you think?

The reason I don't think it was an obsessive act - Liam actually knew this neurologist.  Had spent time in his house tutoring his son.  Didn't you get a different picture of Liam as a teacher when reading of his interaction with the Morrow boy?  Wasn't it a natural thing to pick up the phone and call Dr. Morrow, a former acquaintance?

[pedln]

I like the way Tyler slowly releases little pieces of the puzzle for us to pick up.  Now we know that twenty years earlier Liam taught ancient history (high school level?) to boys at a different school, the Freemont School, which, seeing as how Dr. Morrow’s son attended, might be a bit more selective.  I get the feeling that S. Dyfrig’s might be where students go when they can’t get in anywhere else.

So, after 20 years with no contact, Liam calls Dr. Morrow, and is pleased to find that the doctor remembers him – “Oh yes, the philosopher.”

I did find it natural that Liam wanted to find out what happened to him. It'd be like those times you wake from a daytime sleep and feel completely disoriented. The light's dim, is it sunset or sunrise? How long have I been out to it?

Octavia, well put.  I can understand him wanting to know what happened.  I’d want to know how I acted – did I say anything, did I fight the intruder, why did he bite me?  But I also think I’d be a bit more accepting of the fact that not remembering is normal.  Liam doesn’t seem to have other memory problems.

Sheila, your Cinco de Mayo celebration sounds great.  Cinco de Mayo was mentioned a lot on the TV yesterday, much more than I’d ever noticed before.  I think that’s good, that as the country becomes more diversified we’re learning more about what makes it tick.

Kidsal, yeah, it would be hard to give up a garage, but what I'd miss most would be my laundry room, which also holds the freezer.  Of course, I really have to talk myself down those basement (wet) steps to get there.

[winsummm]

mark

[Steph]

mark.. I am leaving for a few days, but will try to catch up with this when I return. I do have trauma amnesia about the day of the accident and fully understand how frustrating it is, not to remember.

[salan]

Many years ago my husband and I were in a car accident.  I came to in the ambulance and couldn't remember who I was.  That was very frightening.  Fortunately, by the time we got to the hospital, I remembered who I was; but have never remembered what happened only know what happened from the accident report.  I never obsessed over what happened, just was so relieved to remember who I was.

After my husband died (a year and a half ago), I realized that all my retirement plans centered around things we would do together, or places we would travel together.  I have always been fairly independent, so it has come as a shock to me that  I can't seem to jump-start myself.  Somehow, I don't want to do alone all the plans we had together.  I need to reset my own goals.
Sally

[JoanP]

Sally, Steph, you both have experienced the loss of memory that Anne Tyler writes about.  Are you resigned to the fact that those memories are lost for good - or do you believe that you will regain them in time?
  
 Don't you wonder sometimes whether AT actually knew someone who had this experience?  I'll bet she did.
Liam sought out Dr. Morrow's help - "a world-renowned authority on insults to the brain."  "injuries to the brain"  Doesn't it sound as if the doctor believes that  the reason for Liam's memory loss is physical, not psychological, when he tells Liam that memories surrounding a head trauma are gone forever, in most cases?  
Poor Liam - to make matters worse, the doctor doesn't understand why he would want to remember.  Will Liam give up now, and get on with his life?... After all, this is a "world-wide authority telling him he will never remember that night.

Sally brings up something really important here - jump-starting retirement plans that were centered around plans for two.  It will be helpful to hear how those of you who have been in her position have made the adjustment.  My first thought - I'd  look closely at my interest in the joint plans - what was I looking forward to - and go from there - slowly and deliberately.    I have to admit that my husband and I have sloppy plans for the retirement we are now sharing -  Travel, yes.  But that's a trip a year - and the rest centers around visits to the grandkids. Do you think Anne Tyler might be saying that in the end we are ALL in Liam's  shoes - or will be and that in the end, we are all alone and must plan accordingly?
Too much philosophizing so early in the morning.  Your turn!

[Mippy]

This is an amazing discussion.  Your posts reminded me of a memory I'd not thought of in many years, the way I missed a couple days after serious surgery back the the 70s.  I almost died from a missed diagnosis of gall bladder disease, which was caught by a marvelous doctor when my so-called regular gastroenterologist was out on vacation.  That jerk of a doctor had sent me for a psychological consult because of abdominal pain of no apparent cause.
....  anyhow ... I lived      but lost a couple of days.  My husband says he had long conversations with me that I never remembered.  
            
The point is I never went searching, as Liam does, for a "rememberer."     I just got on with life.   Maybe its a female vs. male thing.  I had to come home and take care of two toddlers after I recovered, no household help, no family in town, and so I just did what I had to do, and didn't agonize over it.  

Does any of this make sense?

[pedln]

Does any of this make sense?

Yep, the mind, the brain seems to be a strange thing, especially when part of you is having trauma.  I don't think I've ever lost days like Liam, or Mippy. But I have been deliberately out for days after surgery.  And I think the hospital had a really good idea -- I went under on a Wednesday and woke up on Sunday.  And in the ICU the hospital  put up huge date pages that one could read from the bed, without spectacles -- SUN, 21 -- and they had them up each day, so that someone coming out from anesthesia would at least know what day it was.

[winsummm]

I don't need trauma to have memory loss. I get it every day in bits and pieces. it seems to be one of the adjustments I have to make with aging. Most of it comes back as needed. Planing ahead  doesn't help much because I forget what I have just planned. visual cues remind me as in the mess in the kitchen or the office  etc. I did plan to clean up didn't I
claire

[joangrimes]

i don't really have memory loss I have periods when I do not seem to concentrate.  I can be doing something and will stop in the middle of it and start something else and never go back to the first thing I was doing  until it is rudely brought to mind by some mistake I have made on my bill paying or something important like that.  I know the cause of all this.  It is because of the medication I am taking.  The thing that worries me about this is wondering if I will be able to concentrate better when I am off the meds.  No answer for that now.  I will try to contribute to  the discussion of retiremnt and planning for it but will do it in several posts so as not to put you all to sleep with my story of my retirement years  which etainly has not been all moonlight and roses for me ..If  you participate on the SeniorNet Book Discussions you will already know most of it and certainly you will recognize  the shock to me .Joan Grimes

[JoanP]

I almost died from a missed diagnosis

 Gosh, Mippy!  The lesson here seems to be - get a second opinion, do you agree?  We're all certainly glad your first doctor went away for that vacation.  What do you think caused your memory loss?  Anne Tyler's Liam Pennywell had that blunt force injury to his head.  I can understand why this injury would affect his brain - cause his brain loss.

I'm still going to defend his need to remember the incident -   He says he feels out of control because he can't remember what happened.  Doesn't he need to know what his assailant looked like?  What if he sees him in the neighborhood?  Wouldn't he be in some sort of danger if the assailant recognizes him and thinks Liam can identify him?   Do you think Liam fears it was an inside job?  Do you believe that he left the patio door unlocked?  Liam really wasn't all that forgetful before the attack, was he?

Mippy, I don't think that Liam started out  searching for a rememberer.  He went to Dr. Morrow to get his professional advice.  When the doctor gave him the discouraging news - that he would never remember, he asked for pills that might spark his memory...  It was only then that he thought of the rememberer who had accompanied Israel Cope to Dr. Morrow.  
I'm not sure if Mr. Cope was trying to remember something or if he knew he was losing his memory due to aging or senility and hired the young lady to take notes and help him remember where he is supposed to be and when.
Liam doesn't need that kind of assistance - why on earth does he think that she would be able to help him retrieve something that happened in the past?  He seems to think she has special training that gives her this ability. 

Claire, I never read a post of yours without smiling.  Visual clues indeed!  My husband tells me I need to write things down - and to stop relying on my memory for everything.  Visual clues.  Is he trying to tell me something?

JoanG - It will be interesting to hear how you do when you come off the medication - how much longer?  That's a good idea  posting in spurts - not because you'll bore anyone, but to save your eyes!  (I'll just say here that I do remember moonlight and roses during your retirement years.)

Pedln - a good idea - posting the day of the week and the date in big letters in the ICU.  I wonder how many hospitals do that?