Noah's Compass by Anne Tyler ~ May Book Club Online -

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

 

Noah's Compass ~  May Book Club Online
Everyone is invited - ANYTIME!

Anne Tyler's Noah's Compass was SeniorLearn's first  choice for  our May Book Club Online discussion.  We do hope you will join us in what should be a meaningful, worthwhile experience.  Tyler's protagonist, Liam Pennywell, tells his young grandson that Noah wasn't going anywhere in the Ark.  "He was just trying to stay afloat. He was just bobbing up and down, so he didn't need a compass, or a rudder, or a sextant."  Liam Pennywell  is troubled by his inability to remember anything about the first night that he moved into his new, spare condominium,  after being laid off at 61 from a job he never liked. All he knows when he wakes up the next day in the hospital is that his head is sore and bandaged.  For Liam, the most distressing part of his memory loss was that it felt like he was losing control. And yet this novel is described as "gently humorous."  Really. We all know a Liam, the novel suggests.   In fact, there may be a little of Liam in each of us. Just trying to stay afloat.  Please plan to join us as we float along together.

Discussion Schedule May 1-7 ~     Chapters 1,2,3 May 8-14 ~   Chapters 4,5,6 May 15-21 ~  Chapters 7,8,9 May 22-28 ~  Chapters 10,11,12

 

Some Questions for Your Consideration

May 8 - 14  Chapters 4 - 6

1. What motivates Liam to overcome his aversion to computers and search for information about Israel Cope?  Did he find what he was searching for?

2. What new information does Liam learn from neighbors and the police about the night of his attack?  Do you think he saw his assailant?

3.   Liam's sister Julia has the ability to remember many details that are news to him.  Is this what he thinks a  "rememberer" can do for him?  What do we know of Liam's memory before the attack?

4.  Do you get a sense of place, of Baltimore,  in Tyler's  description of the buildings and the people on Bunker Street? Did you note/underline any examples of her writing in describing them?  

5.  Are Barbara's observations  valid for believing that Liam is depressed?  Does he really like his solitude, being alone?

6. How does Anne Tyler descibe the rememberer?   Do you see signs that Liam is physically attracted to her, or is his interest solely in her perceived powers as a rememberer? Does Eunice seem to have a crush on Liam as his daughter believes?

7.  He thinks there is something familiar about her.  Do you? Could they write one another's resume?

8.  Do you think young people  are often unaware of their own strengths and need objective help choosing  a career path? Do you think  similar guidance might  help with retirement planning?

9.  Are there signs that Liam is beginning to remember the attack?  Are his dreams telling him something?

10.  Can't  Liam see that Eunice has no special skills that can help Israel Cope's memory?  Do you see her helping Cope or Liam?

Relevant Links:
Amazon.com. - Used copies available;
READERS' GUIDE QUESTIOLNS - CHAPTERS 1-6;
Bruce Frankel's What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life?  
Anne Tyler's Baltimore;

  

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln

[JoanP]

I'm finding Liam puzzling and inconsistant - a strange sort of grandpa, isn't he?  Detached - I noted the comment where he says he thinks Jonah  unattractive, as are all the Pennywells, himself included.  Regards the four year old as an alien being.  He had three children of his own -  don't you wonder what sort of father he must have been?  I'll bet he was "detached."  No wonder they all talk about him as if he isn't there -more than likely, he never paid them any attention as they were growing up.

On the other hand, Dr. Morrow seems to regard Liam highly for the patience he showed towards his son...and the son, a grown man now, seems to regard Liam with affection.   Dr. Morrow even remembers that Liam tutored "Buddy"  in history - Seneca it was.  Liam made a lasting impression on the boy's father!  That doesn't sound like the detached Liam we know.

[pedln]

JoanG, you will never bore us; I always enjoy your posts.  And Claire, likewise. Even if your office is messy, your mind is not.  (BTW – a really bad thunderstorm helps clean the office.)

JoanP, how could your retirement plans be “sloppy?”  Why do we have to plan for retirement, can’t some things just fall into place?  To me, that would be one of the joys of retirement.  I think one mistake that people make is to overplan.  “Oh, I’m going to have so much free time I can do this and this and this,  and now I can help at the XYZ and volunteer for the ABC, etc. etc. etc.”  And before you know it, they’re totally bogged down, and still have a hard time saying “no.”  (I was going to clean out all the closets and drawers in my house, and it’s been 12 years now and only one drawer is now perfect. 1 ½ , actually.)

This book is so much fun, and Tyler picks up on even the most minor ticks of daily life.  SATURDAY CLOTHES – I love it.  In chapt. 4 Barbara has come to pick up Kitty.  “She wore a Saturday kind of outfit – frumpy, wide slacks and a T-shirt.  No doubt she would have dressed differently for whats-his-name.”  Liam, this God’s gift to women,  also did not think much of Louise’s attire when they went to see Dr. Morrow. He must have a thing against pedal-pushers (old-fashioned capris.)  Saturday clothes have now become “supermarket” clothes, or “wear to the gym if I’m not going anywhere else” clothes.

And in little sound-bites Tyler tells us more about the family.  We know Liam’s first wife Millie died very young.  We know that after Barbara and Liam were divorced, she married Madigan, who apparently was more of a father figure than Liam, and that Madigan died several years ago.  As JoanP said, Liam seems detached from  his family.  But yet, it seems their divorce was amicable, with limited contact.

[winsummm]

Pedin: the writing is wonderful, entertaining lively and real.  If any of you have read the Amazon reviews though you already know that this is a SMALL novel and over too soon.  enjoy it for each minute it is here. I love Johah's remark about Noah's nautical equipment. "Noah didn't need a compass because he wasn't going anywhere."

claire

[JoanP]

Pedln, I guess the I consider my retirement "sloppy"  is because it came upon me with so little, with no thought, no planning.  I don't even know when I retired.  Am I retired?  I do find myself writing "retired"  when filling out forms where it asks for "occupation."  I started out as a French teacher - When first son was born, we moved to the DC area and I "retired."  I tutored  kids at "McLean High School...brought baby along with me.  

When kids started Preschool, I "retired"  from teaching high school.   I completed required coursework and taught at the Preschool for six years.. When 4th son (youngest) started Kindergarten, I "retired" from teaching preschool.  
Then two friends and I opened a consignment shop - and I worked there for a few days each week for more years than I can remember while the kids were in school. Somewhere during those years, my youngest son's high school needed a French teacher to take over for a teacher who was expecting a baby.  That went on for four semesters - and then I was called to substitute when needed.
 I did "retire" from that when I started working at the Folger Shakespeare Library-
That came about when I stopped in to find material for a SeniorNet discussion on Othello.  They asked me if I wanted a job in the bookstore - summarizing the books in short form to help the sales people.  That went on and on until Bruce retired and wanted to travel.  So I "retired"  - though they kept calling when they needed help in the bookshop.  They began to call so often, that I told them I was "retiring."
Now, I realize that I have not been working for several years, though the exercise class I'm in three days a week has just asked me to train as an instructor.  I don't think I can commit to regular hours in the gym.  Does this mean that I am retired now?  I never thought about what I would do when I retired...  I don't know how one retires...or makes plans.
What I look back at what I've written, I am reminded of Liam Pennywell...floating from one phase of my life to another.  It's giving me something to think about!
  So are all of you.   I'm paying close attention to everything you are saying.

So sorry this got so long...back to the book!

[JoanP]

Claire, it is a rather slim book in pages, but crammed with so many details, there is much to enjoy at a slow pace or they can be overlooked...  I'm enjoyint the attention to the clothing details too.  Liam's "transparent" old shirt - he'd hoped that no one noticed, but of course they did.  How about Eunice's clothing - the big flowery skirts, the white gauze pants?  Liam is noticing everything she wears...  Do you think he's falling for her?   He's so alone, even though he doesn't seem to notice - I think he's fascinated by her and her willingness to pay attention to him.

Do you think he understands what Eunice's job really is?  When will he realize that she won't be of any use to him remembering the attack?  When he does, will she still be a person of interest to him?  Liam is learning quite a bit about the night of the attack from neighbors and from the police report.  Maybe Eunice will help him get all the details down in writing - in a notebook...and the attacker will be discovered this way!  It's starting to read like a detective story, isn't it?

[pedln]

  Just off the press.  Two retirees in New York  City



  Noah posters at the Rubin Museum of Himalayan Art

[bookad]

hello there

its Deb,

just enjoying your discussion about Liam and this book--was able to get a copy finally, not from the library where I had reserved it, and was 2nd in line.... but from another library 40 minutes from here I usually don't use as I try to keep my books in line by only taking home books from 2 libraries...such a difference for me as in Brownsville, Texas the library has a strict 7 book limit & I am always struggling as to which book I want more...

regarding 'Saturday clothes'....recently on a Toronto news channel there was a bit about clothing in China, and trying to get people to stop wearing the pyjamas out in the streets...they want people to stop doing this for their country's birthday celebrations which are going on I think...when so many visitors from outside the country will be coming...
--they showed a young couple walking down the street, both in the pj's....they looked  very nonchalant about their mode of dress
--one elderly lady was interviewed & she was adamant that nothing was going to prevent her from enjoying her comfort in wearing her pj's when going shopping.....she had on what looked to be flannel pyjamas

have caught up in the reading, and don't really feel Liam has much to worry about with his memory....I am almost 59, and I feel many lapses daily...and it worries me....but I like to feel its trying to cope with a number of major anxieties these past few years have hit me with...
-do you think the move & change in job status has upset him so much....that he finds it reassuring to place his focus on struggling to remember the burglary night instead
**eight years ago, my husband, myself & our two dogs in our 1/2 ton truck were run off the road by a car driving in our lane as we came around an S bend in the highway...to avoid a collision my husband drove us off the road & down an incline where we flipped upside down & stopped...I don't remember the flip & how my seatbelt became unbuckled...can't imagine how I would have flipped upside down without hitting my head...I next remember Glenn trying to get the door opened...we all walked away from the accident...I have never been able to retrieve that bit of memory

--can't believe it my dog just came in from being outside & there is snow on his back

well I guess thats my contribution for now...an interesting book though.... I just finished 'the accidental tourist' a couple of months ago, never having read anything before by this author...irony!!

take care

[pedln]

Welcome, Deb. You’re down there near the Mexican border and you have SNOW?  On the second Saturday in May?  Wow.  Whatever, we’re glad you got a copy of the book and we’re glad to see you here. 

don't really feel Liam has much to worry about with his memory

I agree with you, and think he should follow your example and Mippy’s and just get on with it.

-do you think the move & change in job status has upset him so much....that he finds it reassuring to place his focus on struggling to remember the burglary night instead

An interesting point – would that be an example of sublimation?

[bookad]

hello Pedin

--we are home in Ontario, Canada & it has snowed & there is a layer on the picnic table out back--we live about 2 hours north of Toronto, near Orillia, Ontario, home of Stephen Leacock a well known Canadian writer....but we have wintered in Brownsville, Texas for the last 5 seasons.....we left there about a month ago...so to clarify the snow is in Ontario....
good nite to you all...talk to you later
Deb

[gingerw]

pedln I know both of you ladies in the picture, names please? Met them some where or there twins  .

Retirement: Planed to be in sales of Stanley, Watkins, Avon, fuller brush and Amway so before retirement bought a work van (only two front seats) and invested in all these products BUT upon retirement Mom put me to work for her "whatever she wanted, needed so much for plans on retirement. I  retired in 1985, Mom had a stroke in 95 so was here 24/7 till 1997 when she passed in her house where she wanted to. She was worth it as we were friends as well as mother and daughter. Then came the passing of her siblings in International Falls, Mn. a distance of around 800 miles so it was go to their funerals as they passed.  Would come home only to take the plane back.  She was of a family of eight children.  I loved all of them. Then came S/N with the bashes   so 98 till its closing for me (us) S/N became my extended family as I went to all the bashes but the last one.
Today went to the funeral for a neighbor and friend since 1951. She looked good, they did a good job on her. Betty's husband good friend also asked if it would be alright to stop by and I said yes,  Betty and Bob came when mom had had her stroke and said she was the Matriarck (sp) of the neiborhood. They will never know how that made me feel. I have a painting Betty gave me a few years ago, it still hangs where I put it then.
So much for plans for retirement, I went with the flow and hope we find that Liam ends up going with the flow.

There I


    

[gingerw]

There I go again writing a book. BBL
O yeah bumped my head a few weeks ago and got floaters in my eyes, scary, but getting better.
Arn't you glad I don't post often,smile.

[JoanR]

Ginger!!!!!!!!!!!!  Gingeee!!  I've been wondering how you were for the longest time - since the "bash" in Montreal, actually.  Glad to see you here.  The 2 in the photo are Pedln (Ann) and me.  She gets to the city (NYC) every once in a while to visit her daughter.  The last 2 times, I've managed to get in there to meet her and have an adventure or two. We're both rather hard of hearing but we manage just fine.  Stay well!

[JoanP]

Gingee, welcome back!  What a pleasant surprise to find you in our midst this morning!  It was edifying to read of your retirement.  You had a plan, but altered it for  good reason.  Your mother was so fortunate to have you care for her all those years.  I find myself wondering what became of your van stocked with Amway products.  Still parked in your driveway?

Deb - glad you are back with us too - book in hand.   Add another voice to the growing feeling that Liam ought to forget about remembering the night of the assault and get on with his life.

What do you think he's looking for?  What does he hope to accomplish by remembering what happened that night?  Do you think that the blow to his head injured a part of his brain, resulting in his memory loss - or do you think that the whole episode was so traumatic that the brain refuses to revisit the event?
Does Eunice agree with you?  Or does she understand Liam's need to pursue the memory?

I'm very interested in Israel Cope's problem.  What is it that Eunice is trying to help him remember?  I mean, is there something specific, or is she just trying to keep him from future memory loss.
Don't you wonder why this billionaire has his headquarters in this rather run-down part of town?  There's something incongruous about seeing him pull up to the front of Cope Development in Eunice's old green Corolla?  Why is she driving him?  Why not a limosine?

Anne Tyler suggests an answer to these questions...without really providing an answer.  Liam learned from Cope's biography that his parents had owned a bakery in Baltimore.  She describes the buildings on Bunker ST - - "wooden doors "chewed looking"...  "bricks crumbling like biscuits..."
 Do you suppose the bakery was here on Bunker St.?   I'm looking forward to hearing more about Israel Cope and his memory, remembering all the while that it was Mrs. Cope who hired Eunice.  Your thoughts - about anything?

\

[joangrimes]

Ginger,  How wonderful it is to see you here.  I sure have not forgotten any of the bashes  and book gatherings where you where you were present.  I remember well the first time I met you at the Texas bash.  That was quite a while ago.
More tomorrow Folks on the retirement issue.
Joan Grimes

[winsummm]

reading . . . .

[salan]

Joan P.  I agree.  Liam was detached.  How coud his family feel attached to him when he always kept himself removed from them??

I had not noticed Tyler's frequent references to clothing until you pointed out "Saturday clothes", Pedln.  and mentioned Liam's transparent old shirt.  Then Eunice's flowery skirts and white gauze pants.  Then Liam's sister complained about his clothing.  She said that he was trying to come out even with his clothes.  Do you think our clothing tells something about our character/personality?

My head is swimming with thoughts and ideas.  I will post more later.
Sally

[pedln]

Ginger, welcome.   You were the very first person from SeniorLearn(Net), you and Annafair, that I met, back in 2002 in DC.  It’s soooo good to see you here.  Glad you're back.

I love the humor that comes out of these pages --

“No, only iced tea,” Liam said, “ or I think my daughter may have left some Diet Coke.”
“I didn’t know you had a daughter,” Eunice said.
“I have three, in fact.”
“So you are what?  Divorced?  Widowed?”
“Both,” said Liam. “What do you want?”
Eunice said, “Excuse me?”
"Iced tea or diet coke?"

In fact, this whole thing between Liam and Eunice, this charade about a job, the resume, etc. sounds like a comedy of errors.

Sometimes I need a picture – here’s Liam’s employment, as told to Eunice –

1975 – 1982 – Ancient History at the Freemont School
1982 – 1993 – American History at St. Dyfrig
1993 – 2005 – Fifth grade at St. Dyfrig
(Somewhere did it say he taught 5th grade for 12 years?)  Looks like 30 years in all.

Fremont was probably higher up the ladder than St. Dyfrig – The doctor’s son went there and we also have “ The Fremont School? Gosh,” Eunice said.

Public school teachers here in Missouri don’t pay into Social Security, but into a defined benefit pension based on salary and years of service, and after 30 years can retire at any age at full pension, likewise after age 60 regardless of years taught.  A friend who retired from a parochial school also gets a pension, but the amounts are lower than the public one.

Sally, it is all enough to make your head swim, isn’t it. It’s not only the clothes being mentioned.  So now Liam thinks, “but face it: she was really sort of  .   .   ..  hapless.  People like Eunice just never had quite figured out gow to get along in the world”

Hmmm, is the pot calling the kettle black?

[pedln]

JoanP, here we have poor hapless Eunice, biology major, but can’t find a job in her field. Her parents think she’s a failure.  And here we have Mr. Cope, who has been part of a company that grew from a single bakery into a renowned development  company, although company headquarters have not moved away from the bakery site.

Mrs. Cope and Eunice’s mother play bridge together, and have apparently cried on each other’s shoulders about spouse and daughter.  It sounds like Mr. Cope should have retired a long time ago, although no one is to discuss this, and they do try to humor him.  So the unemployed Eunice gets a token job to keep tabs on Mr. Cope and hopefully keep him from embarrassing the company and thus letting folks know he isn’t up to the job any more.

“What I do for Mr. C. is, like, I’m his external hard drive .   .   .  But that is NOT to go beyond these walls.”

[Steph]

Since the day I dont remember was the last day of my husbands conscious life before the accident, I would give anything to remember it. The doctors tell me I never will. Something about short term memory and not transferring.. I have blanks on the first few days in the hospital, because I had three surgeries in rapid succession and way too much anesthesia.. But I dont much care about that. But to remember the last day of my love.. Oh that is my deepest desire.

[JoanP]

Oh  {{{Steph}}}, my heart goes out to you.  To remember that last day.  The very difficult part to grasp is that you weren't spared the memory of the accident - but the day before is lost.  It was the anethesia that took your short term memory - and not a head injury?  The doctors are telling you the same thing that Dr. Morrow told Anne Tyler's Liam Pennywell.  I imagine that the author spoke to neurologists before writing her novel.  She usually does her homework before beginning her novel.

Sally, while Liam isn't getting any closer to remembering the assault, he seems a bit less eager to pursue the memory with the help of this Eunice.  He seems  to be taken with her appearance - and really, there isn't much to notice, is there?  She seems as unaware of her appearance as he has been.  She's described as  "hapless" - ...love the word.  "Unfortunate...to be pitied."  And Liam is taking in all in.  He's NOTICING! Yes, the pot calling the kettle black, Pedln!


I think the way you dress indicates how you feel about yourself, Sally.  I'm not sure what Eunice's job is...do you really think this is just a token job, dreamed up by Eunice's mother and Mrs. Cope? They play bridge together, the billionaire's wife and Eunice's mother?  Really?  Then Eunice must come from that social set.  You couldn't tell from the way she dresses - and the" dingy Corolla" she drives. I wonder what Mr. Cope thinks she's doing - shadowing his every move...

Do you really think Liam is  physically attracted to her, or is his interest solely in her perceived powers as a rememberer? 

[salan]

Thoughts on Noah's Compass:  Noah didn't need a compass because he had no place to go.  I think Liam has lived most of his life without a compass.  He simply went with the flow and never seemed to take the initiative to steer himself in another direction.  He didn't seem to particularly like teaching, but never tried to get another job.  Now that he has lost that job, he not only doesn't have a compass, he no longer has a rudder.  He has no place to go & nothing to do.  He seems to be lonely & desperate.  His decision to downsize & move seems to be one of the few active decisions he has ever made & look what happened to him!

So far, my impression of Liam is that he has always "just existed", but never really lived.  He seems to just drift about in whatever circumstances he finds himself in.  He has always lived a rather "removed" life.  He never bothered to try to get close to his wife or his children or grandchildren.  No wonder he finds himself alone.

I love Tyler's writing and her characterizations are excellent.  This is certainly a well written book, but I find it somewhat depressing and I don't like Liam's character.  I much prefer my protaganist to be likeable!
Sally

[pedln]

Steph, perhaps, maybe, sometime when you least expect it, that day will come back to you. I surely do hope so.

Thoughts on Noah's Compass:  Noah didn't need a compass because he had no place to go.  I think Liam has lived most of his life without a compass.  He simply went with the flow and never seemed to take the initiative to steer himself in another direction.

Well, put, Sally.  Here’s what a couple of other guys had to say about that.

Far better it is to dare mighty things, even though checkered by
failure, than to take rank with those who neither enjoy much or suffer
much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory
nor defeat. -Theodore Roosevelt

When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long
and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones
which open for us. -Alexander Graham Bell

And if you want more in that vein:Living

I was looking for the folks who think Liam’s way is okay. So he’s living, existing, some might say, and then he responds to things that come along.  Is that not okay?

[JoanP]

He has no place to go & nothing to do.  He seems to be lonely & desperate.

Sally, that might be true - BUT I'm not sure Liam is  aware of just how lonely he is.  He thinks he likes his solitude and wishes to be left alone with his books.  He really doesn't like his visitors' comments on his new place, his diet, his desire to find out what happened to him the night he was attacked in his bed....and YET he feels lonely when he is left alone - hurt almost ...  

So he’s living, existing, some might say, and then he responds to things that come along.  Is that not okay?

A good question, Pedln.  We don't get too much insight as to whether Liam has been happy living this way all those years.  If NOT, if as Sally says, then I do feel sorry for him. And yes, annoyed - for wasting his life, just drifting.  Too bad nothing shook him up a long time ago.  No wonder you don't like him, Sally!  Have you read other of Anne Tyler's books?  I'm thinking of the Accidental Tourist, Homesick Restaurant - her men all seem so out of touch with themselves until a strong woman comes on the scene to  bring a little joy into their lives.
I'm afraid that strong woman might have been Barbara...and she gave up on him.  Not sure that Eunice has what it takes.  She's a piece of work, isn't she?   Can their really be a romance here?  They are so much alike - he thinks there is something familiar about her.  Maybe he sees himself in her?

Let's take a little poll. Who thinks Liam is happy, at least content,  living the life he has been to this point?  Who likes Liam just as he is?    (I think Eunice does.)  Who thinks he's wasting his life?  Finds him maddening - unlikeable, even?  

[joangrimes]

I like Liam very much. I think he has plans for his retirement.The question to me is will he be able to carry out these plans.Joan Grimes

[gingerw]

Thanks JoanK I miss all to. Glad you and Pedin get to visit each other.

JoanP Mom liked garage sales so sold the products at a loss. I still
 have the van in the garage and alternate driving it and her car.

The car is a 1985 Coutlas Supreme I have kept up and have many offers for it
but will not sell as I have kept it up and know what I have, no new lemon
for me. Van like new also, both kept in garage.

Hi Joan G. good to see you to. Hi Pedlin good to see you too.

[Steph]

I think I will take the Alexander Graham Bell saying to heart. I need some sort of compass myself on which direction in life to take now that  my plans with Tim are gone.. I can travel as I think about it, but not like before. The sense of adventure is still with me, but I know as a female alone there are things and places not to go.. But I will try to steer a new way.. Exploritas in August seems to be a thing to try for me.. Safe and something to learn..
Anne Tylers men tend to always be a bit directionless.. Her women are the strong characters.

[JoanP]

Steph - you are so wise to follow AG Bell's advice, not to spend your life staring at the closed door.  And strong too, though I imagine you don't feel that way. You are a role model for all of us!  

I find myself wondering about the men in Anne Tyler's life - could  "directionless men"  have been her real life role models?  Just did a quick search and didn't find an answer to that question, but did find this -

"Tyler’s men tend to be hapless, lackluster clods, solitary victims of their own anemic reliability. That they are typically aligned with some of the most impulsive, eccentric women in literature is one of Tyler’s great innovations and probably one of her great lessons, too: What these men need are women whose socks are too bright."  

(I think Eunice fits this description... )

" In one of her rare interviews  Tyler told The New York Times that “The real heroes …in my books are first the ones who manage to endure, and second the ones who somehow are able to grant other people the privacy of the space around them and yet still produce some warmth.”

 JoanG - are these the reasons you find Liam "likeable" and can overlook his "curmdgeonliness?" !

 Another critic wrote -

"Unlike Tyler's expressive, emoting female leads, her male characters can be unforthcoming to the point of curmudgeonliness."
 

Do you think Anne Tyler was trying to present a likeable character?  I'm curious why some of you like Liam.  I think I'd find him maddening - though I would feel badly for him - if he had been my father.  Actually, the more I think about him, the more like my father he is!
 

[JoanP]

Sally just commented on Anne T's writing, which on the surface doesn't seem to be that complex - rather forthcoming, easy to envision what she is describing - but there are so many levels, not always obvious on the first reading.  Last night, I was rereading, looking for something else, and came across this description of how Liam felt the morning after the accident when he woke up in the hospital -

"fastened down like Gulliver, trapped by cords and wires (IV).  The nurse entered so swiftly that she set up a breeze."

  Did you notice that?  "Gulliver" - and "swiftly"?  Surely Anne Tyler intended this?  A funny coincidence too - Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels is one of the novels up for consideration as a July or August Book Club discussion here.  I have NEVER read it, but come across so many references to it  I feel  I must read it once in my life. If you'd like to read more of the nominated suggestions - or nominate another title you would like to see discussed here this summer, please come to the Suggestion Box - we need to hear from you!

[pedln]

Steph, it sounds like your compass is working well, and steering y our sense of adventure. That’s great. Travelling alone can be a little scary, but usually the fears are unfounded. Twenty-some years ago on my first trip to Europe I was to take the overnight train from Oostend to Basel, sleeping in a compartment that held six (you slept in your clothes.)  There must have been something in the newspapers about neo-Nazi skinheads because my greatest fear was that the compartment would be filled with skinheads and I would have to stay awake all night.  Well, of course there was just a normal group of travellers, including a very nice woman from England who was taking the train because she didn’t like to fly.  We had a lovely visit and it was a most pleasant trip.

Hapless – according to the definitions I could find – unfortunate, unlucky.  Well, Liam has been unfortunate in his career path – he fell into the first job, and then things went downhill from there. But “hapless” is not something to hold against him.  And he’s been depicted as rudderless, but he steered himself to Cope Development and Eunice without any help from anyone else.

Except for being whiny about not remembering the intruder incident (and he is trying to correct that) he doesn’t moan and groan about his problems to others.  Of course, Barbara divorced him because “he was not forthcoming.”  So, perhaps he should have complained about things that bothered him. On the whole, him family doesn’t seem to show much appreciation for him.

I don’t dislike Liam, but I can see where he might be maddening.  Perhaps I’ll change my mind, but if he were a work colleague or a neighbor, I’d probably consider him aloof, and just ignore him.  Is he perhaps one of those individuals who relate well to a very few people and ignore everyone else?

JoanP, just saw your post with Gulliver and swiftly.  Sharp eye.

[winsummm]

tylers men are usually full of isssues as i remember faintly the ones I've met. I think she doesn't really like them very much. They would bore me.

claire

[joangrimes]

JoanP,  I Am not sure why I like Liam.  Maybe it is just that I feel very sorry for him instead of liking him so much..Joan Grimes

[Steph]

JoanG.. Aha.. when I think about it, Tylers men do bring out the mother instinct in women.. The Accidental Tourist is a good example of that one.. I loved the book, but kept wanting to shake him.
The Homesick Restaurant again has men who dither and women who do..

[salan]

That's what I love about this site.  You frequently give me "aha" moments and moments when I say, "Why didn't I think about that?"  I completely missed the Gulliver reference!

I get very impatient with Liam.  What a lackluster person he is!
Sally

[JoanP]

Thanks for answering that question, JoanG - I've been trying to think of something to like about Liam.  I look at him the same way you do.  I feel so sorry for him because he is so out of touch with everyone - including himself.  Himself most of all.  Who is the narrator of the story?  Whose point of view are we listening to?

Maternal instinct?  Hmmm...  Big sister Julia seems to fit that category.  And Barbara, at least two of the daughters...all seem to take the exasperated mother role in their criticism.  

Is Eunice different?  She is a take charge-type in her own way - wants to help with the job hunt and the resume, where she sees him floundering.  But does she look at him the way the others do?

"...men who dither and women who do.." - you've put Anne Tyler's message  succinctly, Steph.  Since she portrays men in this way so consistantly, this must be the way she sees them - dithering, without the help of a strong woman.  I'm wondering if there isn't more?  It seems that Barbara came on the scene when he needed help after the death of his first wife, leaving him with a toddler to raise?  Barbara seems quite strong and capable.  A "doer." That didn't work out though.  I wonder why not.  Anne T  seems to be saying that something else is necessary if a "doer"  is to convert the ditherer.

Claire - maybe Barbara felt that way too - "bored" - It probably wasn't easy living with such a man, an unhappy teacher, while raising three daughters..."full of issues" - and detached.  Now you've got me wondering - does Anne Tyler dislike men in general - or does she feel maternal towards them?  (Superior?)

Sally - we're up early this morning! Another who views Liam with impatience.  Is there anything specific that gets to you? 

[pedln]

Back to Liam's defense, again.  I'm glad to see, JoanG, that you haven't crossed him off your list.

We sure are picking on Liam.  So, maybe he’s not Mr. Get Up and Go.  From what we can gather, his life did not go according to what had been expected of him.  So, he went on with life in another direction, teaching. At one point he notes that he did the things expected of him – got married, had children.  He gets downsized, so he makes the decision to move in order to make his dollars go a little further.  He hires his daughter’s boyfriend to help him move, along with another friend.  He settles in, even hangs pictures the very first day.

So, here we have Liam, managing his life, thank you very much, who, because of one incident, has all these bossy women descending on him.  Not only that, they are unkind and/or demanding in their comments, criticisms, and accusations.  All things considered, I’d say he’s rather patient. Barbara kind of annoys me.

Interesting question about the narrator, JoanP.  Is it Liam?  So far, everything seems to be told from his viewpoint.  And we never see any of the other characters unless Liam is present.

In another vein, the math isn’t adding up here.  Eunice tells Liam that she is 38 years old.  And Liam notes that when he was 38 he had three children and his second marriage was behind him.  He’s 60 now and Kitty is 17.  Go figure.

[JoanP]

hahaaha, Pedln, I do remember pausing at those numbers...Liam is 60 now, Kitty is 17 - so when she was born,  he was 43.  Liam says when he was 38, his life was behind him, two failed marriages, etc...  I suppose that his marriage to Barbara might have been "over"  in the sense that they weren't getting along -And Kitty might have been conceived in an effort to revive the marriage.  Interesting to think about, isn't it?  Were they living together as Kitty was growing up?  Have we been told when Liam moved into his own apartment in the city?

Don't you wonder what happened to Liam?  Was he always like this?   Was it simply a matter of missed opportunity?  I trace it back to not finishing his dissertation.  Should we be giving him a pass?  He is making decisions and getting by.  Are we being too tough on him - getting annoyed because he's not doing more with the rest of his life?  What would have happened had the intruder not come into his room.  You say he made plans, but doing what? What were his plans? 
 

[JoanP]

Did you receive the AARP May Bulletin in the mail - I finally sat down to read it - opened to the "YOUR MONEY"  column - and started an article called "Forced to Retire." "Out of a job, but too young to retire."   It's about a woman who finds herself out of work at age 63 with a franchise bill coming every month, whether or not it brings in any money.  (It's not.)  SHe NEEDS a job.  The article goes on with depressing unemployment figures - but what will happen to Jan Gissel?  I need your help - if you have this bulletin.  The article begins on page 14, but then, the whole middle section of my copy is missing.  If you have it, will you please finish reading the article and let me know what she does?

Maybe it's true.  Maybe there are no jobs for people like Liam.  Should he grab that job at Cope Development?

[pedln]

JoanP, I saw that article, but now I can't find the bulletin itself.  As I remember, she retired, with the comment, "Who's going to hire me at 63."  The article also spoke of a 60+ man who was let go from his computer services job, who retired because he couldn't find anything.  My thinking about him was that while it would certainly be a come-down financially, he could probably earn quite a bit doing free-lance computer services.

Now that we're halfway (or more) through the book, do you think it is about memory?  Callie said we'd be surprised, and she's right.

[joangrimes]

No,  I do not think it is about memory at all...Joan Grimes