Fairy Tales & Their Tellers~From the Beast to the Blonde~August Book Club Online

[BooksAdmin]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

 

COMING AUGUST 1

On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~  August  Book Club Online

 
 Source Books:
* From the Beast to the Blonde by Marina Warner  
* The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales by Bruno Bettelheim

Marina Warner's  From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and  comprehensive study of the changing  cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them.  The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories.  Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.") Warner's book is huge.  We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories  and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness.

Bruno Bettelheim's book may be more readily available.  It concentrates more on the psychology behind the fairytales and how important they are to a child's development, the way he perceives himself and the world. The author makes a case that fairytales are more important to a child's formation than any other form of children's lit. If you are unable to get your hands on either of these two books, not to worry.   The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those with  Warner's book can share the commentary.

This should be both fun and informative.  Will you be joining us on August 1 ?  
 

  

Discussion Leader:  JoanP  

[JoanP]

Do children read Grimm's Fairy Tales any more?  Hans Christian Anderson, Charles'  Perrault's Cinderella?  Or has Disney taken over that department and tamed these old heroines for family viewing? Do you read them to your grandchildren?   I'm going to ask my 8 year old granddaugher, who is a voracious reader whether she has read any of the stories... pre-Disney.   (Here's a newspaper clipping of her latest accomplishment -   http://www.commercialappeal.com/photos/2010/jun/10/172041/ )

  Marina Warner presents eyeopening information ...relating that these stories, which were once told by grandmothers and nannies, women, were written down - and recast by men.  

Libraries don't carry too many of these big books - too bad, because the 500+ pages are full of gorgeous illustrations and packed with information.  If you can get your hands on one, consider yourself fortunate.   We'll use the second half of the book as a source for the discussion of specific fairy tales. Even if you can't get your hands on Warner's book,   you will enjoy the discussion and can read the tales, which are available on the net...  It is interesting how they changed over time, mirroring the period in which they were told.  Do you think our cultural representative is Disney?

  Check your library today to see if you can get your hands on Warner's "From the Beast to the Blonde"  for this discussion which will begin on August 1!

Are you with us?

[JoanR]

What a charming and bright little granddaughter you have.  You must all be very proud of her!

Yes, I'll be joining this discussion since it's one of my favorite areas of interest.  I might mention here another book that would be worth referring to while we are discussing fairy tales and their value and influence - Bruno Bettleheim's "The Uses of Enchantment: the Meaning and Importance of Fairytales".  Our library has 4 copies so I imagine that it's not scarce!

This is a great follow-up to the Byatt book we just discussed!

[Steph]

Hmm, I think I will sit on the fence a bit. This sounds interesting, but not that accessible.. See how the discussion proceeds.

[kidsal]

Have the book, and after Possession, another fairy tale?

[JoanP]

Wonderful that you will be joining us, JoanR - we know that folklore is of interest  as you have both Marina Warner's Beast/Blonde book and Bruno Bettleheim's book on the meaning and importance of fairytales on your own bookshelf.  You will be our "go-to"  person in this discussion!

Our first task will be to identify the specific fairy tales we will be discussing during this discussion.  I have done a quick Google search and followed the story of Cinderella through the ages and am amazed at the number of iterations.  Was surprised toread that at one time "stepmother"  and "mother-in-law"  were synonymous!  My library copy of Warner's book is ready for pick-up and I can't wait to get my hands on it.  Personally, I am most interested in understanding what the first tellers had in mind with this story.  

Steph - good to know you are planning to sit on the fence.  I am certain you will be tempted to jump in.  You'd be surprised at how much is on the Internet - whole electronic texts of the stories through the ages!

Kidsal -  so happy to hear that you are with us - and that you have the Warner book.  I know it's huge - like Possession. But unlike Possession, we will not attempt to read all 500 pages in a month.  It's the second half of the book that we will use as a resource.  Would be interested to hear of your initial impressions of the book though - as I've heard wonderful things about it.  My copy is waiting for me at the library right now.

I've been reading Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein"  - which is coming up next - definitely not a fairy tale.  This is not the Frankenstein of the movies.  I can honestly say that I shed tears at the moment the truly ugly monster comes to life and manages a little smile at his horrified creator who wants nothing to do with him.  But I really shouldn't be talking about that now.  It's just not what I was expecting.  That discussion begins July 1 -

[mrssherlock]

When my children were small I had a book about the origins of Mother Goose stories, fascinating to read that  ring around the rosy was a retelling of the Great Plague.  I'll want to read the Betelheim book, too.  The effect of Disney on Fairy Tales is a whole other subject but one I'll be looking for in these books and this discussion.

[JoanP]

Glad you will be with us, Jackie.  I just picked up the Bettleheim at my library, but the Warner book is still "In Transit for Hold" - at least I'm #1 on the hold list - thought it would be there today though.

Oh yes - the Ring around the Rosie song - Ashes, ashes, we all fall down!

[Gumtree]

I can't source the book locally - but will keep trying. Haven't covered the secondhand shops yet but don't hold out much hope for getting my hands on a copy. Nevertheless I'll come in and lurk if I may. It should be a great follow-on from Possession

I love the different takes on the old 'nursery rhymes' as we called them such as - Ring a Ring of Rosies - a pocket full of posies - a'tishoo a'tishoo - we all fall down.

[JoanP]

Gum,really delighted to have you, the sourcebooks or not.  We'll have enough links to keep you busy - links to the actual fairytales.

a pocket full of posies - a'tishoo a'tishoo - we all fall down.

"a'tishoo a'tishoo" - love it!

There are scholars who argue that the rhyme has nothing to do with the Plague - that this is a 20th century interpretation...

[marcie]

I'm interested in joining this group too. I read many fairy tales as a girl and would love the "excuse" to read more. In fact, I'm building a little collection of books of fairy tales--from various countries (in English). I'm limiting myself to second-hand bookshops and thrift stores. They are a bit scarce but I am finding some.

I'll get the Marina Warner book from our library when it gets closer to August but I'm glad to know that those in the group who can't find the book can content ourselves with reading some fairy tales. It will be interesting to compare versions.

What a prolific reader your granddaughter is, Joan. Let's get her in this discussion!

[JoanP]

That's great you will be joining us, Marcie! Your collection makes it sound like more than just a girlhood interest in fairy tales.  Maybe we can talk about that now in this pre-discussion...

What attracts you to fairy tales?  What has been the allure of fairy tales over the centuries?   

[Janice]

This sounds like fun and as much as I can I will be joining the discussion also.  I have a set of books called Junior Classics The Young Folks Shelf of Books, which contains many poems and Fairy Tales.  I'll see if I can find From the Beast to the Blonde as well.

[marcie]

Janice, it's great that you will be joining the group. Your set of Junior Classics should provide a bounty of tales.

I think what's always drawn me to fairy tales is their construction of imaginative "other worlds." I used to love to get lost in them when I was young. I still admire authors who are inventive and who provide detailed worlds with their own histories, cultures, customs and languages. It's what draws me to science fiction too.

[Gumtree]

Marcie - In that case I guess you'd be a great fan of Tolkien.  He went as far as inventing a language for Middle Earth - as a youngster my son spent hours poring over it and then filled notebook after notebook with 'Elvish' writings. I wonder whether he could read it now.

[ursamajor]

I am looking forward to joining this discussion.  It addresses a long time interest for me.  I wonder if anyone else read the different colored Fairy books - the Red Fairy Book, the Green fairy Book, etc.  There were a lot of them.  These date from the turn of the 20th century, as I remember.

[JoanR]

I still have the Olive Fairy Book.  At one time, we had the Red and the Green but they left home with the young a long time ago.  I hope I can track down a few!  I do have a nice set of Hans Christian Andersen but I wonder if he will count in this discussion since his stories were composed by him - surely some of them must have roots in legend.

[JoanP]

Janice, Ursamajor - really happy to hear that you plan to join in this discussion.  Welcome! Clearly we will have plenty to discuss in August - with or without the source books!

What do you suppose accounts for this shared love of fairy tales? Marcie is drawin to the construction of imaginative "other worlds."  Is it a form of escapism into these other worlds?   For me - it is the suggestion of other possibilities - that I can live my life other than what it is right now - if only I use my imagination.  Remember that old song -  "Fairy tales, can come true...it can happen to you..."  

I've got to run - will be back this afternoon...but just wanted to welcome new members to this widening circle~

[marcie]

Gumtree, yes, I enjoyed the Tolkien books. I don't get into the language part so far that I study and speak it (as some readers do!). I recall that there were several books dedicated to the Klingon language of the StarTrek series :-)

Ursamajor and JoanR, I didn't own any of the "colored" fairy tale books but I recall one summer when I took out every one that our public library owned.

JoanP, I agree, it's the endless possibililities that attracts me.

[ivmfox]

I'm in!  Loved reading fairy tales as I grew up and look forward to reviewing them as an adult!

[JoanP]

Good morning, IV - (What shall we call you for short?) - very happy to have another fairytale lover join us.  I've been learning so much about them while preparing for this discussion - reading of their history - and lately, their importance in a child's psychological development.

A while back, JoanR recommended Bruno Bettelheim's The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales - yesterday I read the Introduction - and learned so much just from these opening pages!  For one, I learned the importance of the gory details - the importance of letting the child handle and process the stories as they are.  And NOT to try to explain the tales to a child - his developing subconsciousness will handle that process - you spoil that for him if you explain what he is hearing.  Wow! Who knew?   ...Someone stop me - we have two weeks before we start!

I'm going to add a link to Bettelheim's book to the heading - and recommend that you check your local library for a copy.  You'll be glad you did!  Thanks, JoanR!

If you cannot find either of these books, please don't be deterred.  We will be talking about the tales themselves, and how they have been interpreted over the ages. They are readily available on-line.
  Welcome, ivmfox!

[marcie]

It's great to have you here, ivmfox. I'm glad we have another fairy tale fan joining us.

[ivmfox]

I found The Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales, The Western fairy tale tradition from medieval to modern...at the library and will use it for discussion.

[goldensun]

I enjoy fairy tales and would like to join in.

Among my books I just found the Blue Fairy Book. When I bought it years ago I had no idea that there were more "color books" to be had.

[ursamajor]

My Beast/Blonde book has arrived, and it looks suspiciously like a text book.  A previous owner has done a lot of underlining in the first couple of chapters.  I begin to wish I had ordered the Bettelheim book instead.  I read it a few years ago.  I can get the "colored" fairy books from the Knoxville Library if I pay the fee to join.  I remember these with great pleasure, but never owned any.

[JoanP]

Goldensun - it is good to have you with us! Welcome! It's funny that you should mention Andrew Lang's Blue Fairy Collection.  I was just reading about that and the other "coleured Fairy Books" this morning. - Here's a bit of information about them -

"Andrew Lang's Fairy Books or Andrew Lang's "Coloured" Fairy Books constitute a twelve-book series of fairy tale collections. Although Andrew Lang did not collect the stories himself from the oral tradition, the extent of his sources, who had collected them originally (with the notable exception of Madame d'Aulnoy), made them an immensely influential collection, especially as he used foreign-language sources, giving many of these tales their first appearance in English. As acknowledged in the prefaces, although Lang himself made most of the selections, his wife and other translators did a large portion of the translating and telling of the actual stories."

The Blue Fairy book was the first: Blue Fairy Book (1889)
 Red Fairy Book (1890)
 Green Fairy Book (1892)
 Yellow Fairy Book (1894)
 Pink Fairy Book (1897)
 Grey Fairy Book (1900)
 Violet Fairy Book (1901)
 Crimson Fairy Book (1903)
 Brown Fairy Book (1904)
 Orange Fairy Book (1906)
 Olive Fairy Book (1907)
 Lilac Fairy Book (1910)

Ursa, I've got Warner's "From the Beast to the Blonde" in front of me too - a big book, isn't it?  Marvelous etchings and prints throughout.  Don't be overwhelmed with it - we'll just use it as a source - knowing the you have it is great - you can help those who were unable to get a copy...

I'm thinking that we will use the different versions of Little Red Riding hood as a starting point.  Will put links to these stories in the heading very soon.  Golden Sun, I see that the Blue Fairy book contains Little Red Riding Hood - or Little Red Cap - so you might want to read up on this story sometime before we start? Be sure to note the authors and the dates, if you see them.

 And Ursamajor - you might check the index of the Warner book to see what you can find of interest about the very early versions of the story.  You might find some shocking eyeopeners!

[marcie]

goldensun, it will be wonderful to have you join the group. How lucky that you have the Blue Fairy book! I see from JoanP's post that it was the first one in the series!

ursamajor, is the Bettelheim book available in your library? Your library charges a fee to join?

[dbroomsc]

Just received both books recommended so I will be joining the discussion on August 1.

[MarjV]

This looks most fascinating.   Just requested both books.   Hopefully I'll participate.

[ursamajor]

My local library is pathetic.  There is a charge to use the Knox County Library because I don't live in that county.  The charge is $40, but it is worth it if I get there twice a month.  I have checked the catalog and they have all 12 "colored" fairy books as well as the Bettelheim.  This gives me access to all the libraries in the Knox system.

[JoanP]

Fran and MarjV - really glad you will be joining us - and that you have been able to locate the books we'll be using as sources.  Some of us have not been able to find them in their libraries - but your contributions will be helpful - and of course the tales we'll be discussing are availalbe on the Internet...even the very old ones!  This promises to be an enjoyable time for everyone!
Welcome, both of you!

[marcie]

It's great to see you  here, dean69 and Marjv. ursa, that's too bad about your local library but it sounds like you have a very good resource in Knox county.

[goldensun]

Thanks Joan P. and Marcie. I'm reading some of the stories and looking forward to the discussion.

The Blue Fairy book has Little Red Riding Hood. The other four books on my shelf are French, Celtic and German stories. Neither the Celtic book, by Eric and Nancy Protter, or the French one (those stories are all set in Mackinac Island, Michigan) is likely to have an equivalent story.  I got the Protter book thirty-five years ago and still love it most dearly of them all.  

[MarjV]

There must be equivalent fairy tales in all cultures just like all have their unique stories of
creation which have similarities.    Folk tales?

I was thinking about fairy tales versus folk tales...then I came across this
wikipedia link           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_tale


And all of Lang's Fairy tale books can be read  here     http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/

That's all for now
~Marj

[JoanR]

ivmfox - Thanks for suggesting the Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales.  My local library didn't have it but I was able to request it from the county system and it has come in just 2 days.  It looks very interesting and will no doubt be useful as well.

I only have the Olive Fairy Book but I can borrow some of the others. Also, the on-line source that MarjV has given us will be quite a help, I think, for the other volumes.  This discussion will be such fun!  - and serious, too, since these tales came out of the hopes and needs and attempts to explain life of our forebears.

[marcie]

goldensun, that's wonderful that you kept the Protter book all these years.

JoanR, I agree that MarjV's link to http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/ will be very handy!

Marj, it was interesting to read the wikipedia article with descriptions of fairy tales and related stories. I am very interested in folklore too and also various creation stories/myths.

[JudeS]

I own both books and have read the Bettelheim and some of the second book.  There is a stream in Jungian Psychology that utilizes much of this material .  They run some fascinating workshops based on Mythology and Fairy Tales.  I have attended some of them though I am not a Jungian. For the most part the participants ended up writing their own fairy tales and drawing their own illustrations.  Quite freeing and lots of fun.

I will participate as much as possible though August is a guest filled month for us and we are also going to Vermont for a wedding.

How did you hit upon this subject?

[kidsal]

Other websites:

http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/introduction/index.html

http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/

[JoanP]

Hey, Jude!!!  You are so very welcome!  I woke up this morning thinking- after reading Bettelheim right before I went to bed last night on the therapeutic importance of fairy tales - that what we really need in our midst is a psychologist!  Now I am a believer in fairy godmothers, because here you are, just as I wished!

That's a good question - how did we hit upon this subject?  I'll admit when we started talking about a summer discussion, we were looking for something light and easy and thought fairy tales would be just the ticket.  It was JoanR who suggested Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde as a sourcebook, and then Bettelheim's  Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales.  And then whoa, Nellie, we were off to the races.  This promises to be quite a discussion.  Maybe I'm on to something when I sense that Warner and Bettelheim are not even on the same page on the therapeutic importance of the tales...well, I'm getting ahead of myself here.  

MarjV, something caught my eye in the Wikipedia essay on the folklore and fairytales -

"Folklorists have interpreted the tales' significance, but no school has been definitively established for the meaning of the tales."

 

Let me repeat, we consider ourselves blessed to have you join us, Jude - and also that JoanR has agreed to share her long time interest in folklore and fairy tales with us as a Guest Discussion Leader - Thank you, Fairy Godmother~

[JoanP]

Kidsal, MarjV, I've scooped up those links and will put them in safekeeping for when we get started.  Thank you both so much! ( I think the link to Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy books will have to go up into the header today.)
Those of you who have neither of these books will have plenty to read and compare as so much is available on-line.   Who knew?