Fairy Tales & Their Tellers~From the Beast to the Blonde~August Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

 

COMING AUGUST 1

On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~  August  Book Club Online

 
 Source Books:
* From the Beast to the Blonde by Marina Warner  
* The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales by Bruno Bettelheim

Marina Warner's  From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and  comprehensive study of the changing  cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them.  The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories.  Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.") Warner's book is huge.  We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories  and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness.

Bruno Bettelheim's book, The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales   may be more readily available.  It concentrates more on the psychology behind the fairytales and how important they are to a child's development, the way he perceives himself and the world. The author makes a case that fairytales are more important to a child's formation than any other form of children's lit. If you are unable to get your hands on either of these two books, not to worry.   The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those with  Warner's book can share the commentary.

Some Pre-Discussion Questions...

1. In his introduction to The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales, Bruno Bettelheim, an educator and psychologist, asserts that nothing is as enriching, as satisfying or as meaningful to a child's development as the folk fairy tale, of the entire collection of children's literature, with rare exceptions.   Do you agree with him?

2. Do children still read those old tales today?  Which were your favorites?  

Related Links: Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books; Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales ; A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell"  ;

This should be both fun and informative.  Will you be joining us on August 1 ?  
 

Discussion Leader:  JoanP with JoanR, Guest DL

[marcie]

Jude, it's great that you'll be joining the group!

Thanks for those links, Kidsal. There are quite a few references for "women and fairy tales" at that site.

[MarjV]

Great website finds, Kidsal!

[JoanR]

Sometimes fairy tales and fantasy literature are confused with each other.  I’ve run across a definition in "The Oxford Companion to  Fairy Tales" which clarified them for me.
“ “While fairy tales and fantasy are doublessly related.. Their origins are quite different.  Fairy tales have their roots in archaic society and archaic thought, thus immediately succeeding myths."   Fantasy literature is a more recent genre and owes its origins mostly to romanticism. ... " it’s a conscious creation where authors choose the forms which suit them best. "
I found a series of books in our library which are fantasy novels - each by a different author taking a traditional fairy tale of his choice and building his plot from that.    These now are no longer fairy tales.!
 Can we call Andersen's "Little Mermaid" a fairy tale since it is a re-telling of a long line of mermaid tales?  I would. 
 I think these classifications can get rather confusing!

[marcie]

JoanR, those distinctions are a bit confusing. I think we'll have to find our way as we read and talk about some of these stories together.

[JoanP]

"Sometimes fairy tales and fantasy literature are confused with each other. "

JoanR, I can't tell you how delighted we are to have you with us as a "guest DL"  for this discussion.  Your long-time interest in folk tales and fairy tales will be invaluable to us!

An interesting question about The  Little Mermaid.  Are you saying that because Hans Christian Andersen based his story on ancient Greek tales of a mermaid, that it falls under the "fairy tale" catergory?  And that if he made up a story not based on the mermaid stories - if she was of some other species, then it would be Andersen's own speciies? 

[JoanR]

"Guest DL" Moi?  I thought I was a happy participant!  The heat is melting my brain!

We only have AC in 2 bedrooms and the living room so the kitchen and the study are so very hot that I prepare dinner at 6:00AM and make only hasty forays to the computer!

Interesting question, JoanP.  I don't think that I said that Andersen based The Little Mermaid on mythology.  There were many water nymphs etc in classic myths but they remained part of the pagan culture.  With the advent of Christianity, the tales took on a different tone - mermaids or selkies who wanted to become mortals had to sacrifice something to acquire a soul.  In the tales I remember that sacrifice was usually the voice, also having become mortal, they could die.  This is the sort of tale that Andersen wrote.  Also the opera Russalka is like this - not a happy story, for sure.  In fact, I just can't seem to think of a happy mermaid tale unless you want to count Disney!!

[JoanP]

Welcome, "Guest DL"!  Oh dear - I'm sure I sent you an email, admittedly some time ago, asking for your help with this one, as my knowledge of Fairytales is limited. Did I dream that you responded in the affirmative?    Reading the Warner and the Bettelheim sources only confirms how little I do know.

Of course we want you as a 'happy participant' -  Do you think Guest DL and Happy P exclusionary?  Maybe the only difference is that as Guest DL you are here more often?

Can we call Andersen's "Little Mermaid" a fairy tale since it is a re-telling of a long line of mermaid tales?  I would.

 
OK, so Andersen's "long ago line " of mermaid tales don't go back to ancient myths, but he did base his Little Mermaid on later tales of  mermaids, the selkies - which is the reason why you feel it is a fairy tale?

Do you have a favorite tale - or maybe a  favorite narrator of tales?

Smart of you to prepare dinner at 6am - before the big temps get going.  We are heading for another 100 degree day.  My little cubscout grandson is determined to march down Conn. Ave in DC  this afternoon with a huge contingent of scouts who just attended the National Jamboree here.  I'm not so worried about the boys as I am about my son, his Den Leader.  The grandma is wondering whether she ought to suck it up and go down to down to take his picture...

[JudeS]

I have a question based on the fact that I realized as you discussed "The Little Mermaid" I had never read  the original.  What collection of Andersen would you suggest? Or just google it?
I know the Grimm stories since I had the book as a child but I didn't read the Andersen Tales till I read them to my children.  There were five tales in this book but The Little Mermaid was not among them.However even that book is now long gone.

 I also want to mention Oscar Wilde as a less well known writer of Fairy Tales.  "The Happy Prince" is a beautiful and sad story that he wrote.  But then perhaps it doesn't fit the genre as it has an unhappy ending.

[JoanR]

The Happy Prince" is one of my favorite stories although it always leaves me a bit teary so I was unable to read it to my kids

[ursamajor]

I like Wilde's "The Selfish Giant".  I wouldn't describe it as a fairy tale, though.

[JoanP]

A good question - is the happy ending a necessary ingredient of a fairy tale?  What do you think?  There are some versions of Little Red Riding Hood where the wolf swallows both grandma and Little Red...and the story ends there...

Jude, I thought it would be fun to search the link to Andrew Lang's colour fairytale books to find the Little Mermaid.  Which I did, without much success.  I did find other Mermaid tales by HC Anderson in the fairy books, but not THE story I was seaching for...

"Hans the Mermaid's Son" - Pink Fairy Book  http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/410.htm

"Mermaid and the Boy" - Brown  http://mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/274.htm

Googling brought me to this  nicely illustrated version though ... http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html

Does our Guest DL think that Andrew Lang did not include The Little Mermaid, but did include other mermaid stories?

[JoanP]

Now I just have to go find  "The Selfish Giant", Ursa.  And "The Happy Prince" too.  I think I had a deprived childhood, never having read these stories.  On the other hand, maybe I read them, and simply forgot?  I'm going to read them and see if they sound familiar...

These are both stories by Oscar Wilde...are they considered to be "fairy tales?" Ursa does not. Do we need a definition of a fairy tale?  

[marcie]

I found some links related to Anderson's The Little Mermaid at http://www.andersen.sdu.dk/vaerk/register/info_e.html?vid=16. Included is a link to a very similar version to the one you found, JoanP.

[JudeS]

Well this is fascinating.  First I went to the site suggested by Joan P and from there to a Danish site (which is almost all English).  There they give you a list of Andersens 212 stories and fairy tales.  "The Little Mermaid" is # 16 , just after a story "God Can Never Die".  Getting more curious by the minute I simply Googled  the name of the story "The Little Mermaid"

Lo and behold I got not only the whole story but the huge polemic over its ending. You too can read this fascinating article if you Google the title and go to the second article-i.e. the Wikipedia article.  They get into the question of what type of ending does a story need to be considered a fairy tale.  It seems that this particular story was used as a morality tale by Victorian parents. 

I also never read "The Happy Prince" to my children since it made me tearful and sad, whereas "The Happy Giant" is delightful.

[JoanR]

I have an"Index to Fairy Tales, Myths & Legends" pub 1926 which lists Andersen's "Little Mermaid"and gives several sources for it but not the Lang books.  In the back it lists all the books it has searched for its many entries - all the Lang books are cited.  From this I would guess that one wouldn't find the "Little Mermaid" in the Colour Fairy Books  It's a pretty long story - about 50 pages in my Andersen books - so that could be why it's not included by Lang. Maybe!  Hard to grasp hold of these fairies!

About defining "Fairytale".  One definition I read says that it is characterized by a "happy ever after ending" but that's certainly not always true.  We can all think of some with sad ends.  The "cautionary tales" can have bad ends.  The sort where the little heroine dies but ascends to heaven as an angel is sad or not, depending on one's viewpoint!  Andersen wrote quite a few heartbreakers such as "The Steadfast Tin Soldier".  I wept buckets over that one as a child!

The consensus is that Andersen's tales are fairy tales.  Fairy tales are hard to define - most fairy tales don't have any fairies in them!  Most of them seem to have evolved from earlier tales told by community story-tellers when most ordinary folk were illiterate.  They were refined and elaborated down through time until they were collected by people such as Perrault and the brothers Grimm.

[ursamajor]

I think we need a working definition of fairy tales.  In my opinion, the majority of the Andersen stories do not fit the category; they are Victorian morality stories.  The Little Match Girl makes my skin crawl.  The Little Mermaid isn't much better: you achieve your heart's desire only through sacrifice and suffering.

  If we just define fairy tales as having magical happenings and fabulous creatures we get into The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, and even, God Help us, Harry Potter.

To my mind, to qualify as a fairy tale the story should have been told over and over, as Cinderella has been.  I would like to hear others' opinions on the susbject, but we need a working definition so we are all talking about the same thing.

I will pick up several of the "colored" fairy books at the Knoxville Library tomorrow.  That should help me with my own definition.  It has probably been 65 years since I read them.

[Ella Gibbons]

Oh, I read many of these fairy tales as a child and later read them to my children. I had to gulp a bit at the unhappy endings of a few, but the children did not have nightmares (neither had I) and perhaps it is good that they learn all stories do not have a happy ending -  such is life.

I'll join you or read along when I can. 

[JoanP]

Ella, we're happy to hear that you will be joining us - Welcome!

Ursa would like for us to come up with a definition of a fairytale, before we get started.  That's more difficult than I thought - having a hard time finding a definitive answer for her.  
The Oxford dictionary says:
• n. a children's story about magical and imaginary beings and lands.
 ∎  [as adj.] denoting something regarded as resembling a fairy story in being magical, idealized, or extremely happy: a fairy-tale romance.

Do we agree that a fairy tale needs a "happy" ending?  I'm not sure.  Is The Little Mermaid considered a fairy tale? JoanR wonders if it is not part of Andrew Lang's extensive collection of Fairy Tales is because it is too long.  Perhaps that is the reason.  Was that really a happy ending?

"I had to gulp a bit at the unhappy endings of a few" - Ella remembers the unhappy endings, as I do.
Jude, I Googled The Little Mermaid, and found the second entry, just as you said...and read the alternate endings with interest.  I was also interested in your comment - "It seems that this particular story was used as a morality tale by Victorian parents." Because another source stated -

  

A fairy tale is a story that is told in a fanciful way but also gives some sort of lesson. Cinderella, for instance is about finding love and romance, but also teaches that treating someone badly does not pay off in the end.

I've been reading Bruno Bettelheim's introduction - and get the impression that cautionary tales are NOT fairy tales. Maybe we'll have to talk about that next week.

[JoanR]

It seems as if the lineage of the fairy tales is: myth, oral folk tale, fairy tale..  Myths narrated the deeds of supernatural beings, the oral folktales were told to entertain or educate when most people were illiterate,, fairy tales sprang out of this oral tradition..  In France, in the late 17th century, the tales were told as entertainment in the  fashionable salons.  These were not children’s tales!  Perrault and Mme. D’Aulnoy collected the stories and wrote them down for adults.  These are the literary tales with which we are familiar.  Although some of them have been “expurgated” for children - I.e. "Sleeeping Beauty ".  I don’t think that I’ve ever seen  it or“Donkeyskin” in their original versions in a children’s book.

About Andersen - he came from a non-reading family and grew up hearing the old oral tales.  He was a storyteller himself.  Some of his tales have their basis in the old legends and are literary fairy tales- Little Mermaid for example.  He tended to add a little moral at the end of some of his stories.

[JoanR]

I just found Andersen's own definition of fairy tales:

  "In the whole realm of Poetry no domain is so boundless as that of the fairy tale.  It reaches from the blood-drenched graves of antiquity to the pious legends of a child's picture-book;  It takes in the poetry of the people and the poetry of the artist.  To me it represents all poetry, and he who masters it must be able to put into it tragedy, comedy, naive simplicity, irony and humour...."

[MarjV]

Your Andersen quote, Joan, is exactly why I don't t hink we can tie down a strict definition of a fairy tale.    "In the whole realm of Poetry no domain is so boundless as that of the fairy tale.  It reaches from the blood-drenched graves of antiquity to the pious legends of a child's picture-book;  It takes in the poetry of the people and the poetry of the artist.  To me it represents all poetry, and he who masters it must be able to put into it tragedy, comedy, naive simplicity, irony and humour...." ]
 
[

And that might take away the lightness of being in reading and thinking about these stories.

[MarjV]

I thought this from wikipedia about Madame d'aulnoy was interesting:

Her most popular works were her fairy tales and adventure stories as told in Les Contes des Fees (Tales of fairies) and Contes Nouveaux, ou Les Fées à la Mode. Unlike the folk tales of the Grimm Brothers, who were born some 135 years later than d'Aulnoy, she told her stories in a more conversational style, as they might be told in salons. These stories were far from suitable for children and many English adaptations are very dissimilar to the original.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame_d%27Aulnoy

[JoanP]

MarjV, thank you so much for bringing us the originator of the term we have been trying to define - Countess d'Aulnoy  and her "contes de fées" (fairy tales).  Did you get a chance to read some of them?  Had you ever heard of them before?

I'm beginning to think that we are not going to be able to pin down one definition of a fairy tale that everyone can agree on.  JoanR Hans Christian Andersen's definition brings home how broad is concept.  Length, happy endings, sad endings,  cautionary messages or no - shall we forget those considerations?  (Bruno Bettelheim is not going to agree with that, as we will see.  Happy endings are a necessary ingredient of the fairy tale in his view.

"It seems as if the lineage of the fairy tales is: myth, oral folk tale, fairy tale.."JoanR

As I read your post, Joan, it occurred to me that this would be a good way to approach the tales...from the earliest known myths to the fairy tale in its modern iterations.  

 

[JudeS]

Searching among various sources of the definition of a Fairy Tale I found one that is the closest to what I see  at this point in time as a Fairy Tale.  Of course after this discussion I may be wiser and change my mind.

"a tale of some length involving a succession of motifs or episodes. It moves in an unreal world without definite locality or definite creatures and is filled with the marvelous.  In this never-never land, humble heros kill adversaries, succeed to kingdoms and marry princesses."  Stith Thompson 1977  The Folktale

And in the annotated Brothers Grimm, A.S.Byatt adds: "The characters and motifs of fairy tales are simple and archetypal : princesses and goose girls, youngest sons and gallant princes, ogres, giants, trolls, wicked stepmothers and false heroes; fairy godmothers and other magical helpers, often talking horses, or foxes, or birds; glass mountains and prohibitions and the breaking of prohibitions."

This is a fascinating subject.

[salan]

I couldn't get my hands on a copy of either of the books you mentioned; but since I can look up a lot on line; I will be popping in from time to time.  I have always thought of fairy tales as having happy endings, thus the phrase, "a fairy tale ending".  However, I may have to rethink that.....
Has anyone else been humming Frank Sinatra, "Fairy tales can come true.  It can happen to you; if you are among the very young at heart".
Sally

[salan]

Don't know why or how I got the "huh" face.  I can't seem to manage putting faces where I want them; but they magically seem to appear in random places!!
Sally

[ursamajor]

"a tale of some length involving a succession of motifs or episodes. It moves in an unreal world without definite locality

"Long ago, in a galaxy far far away......."

Bettelheim quotes Lewis Carroll "....child of the pure unclouded brow/ And dreaming eyes of wonder!/ Though time be fleet and I and thou/ Are half a life asunder/ Thy loving smile will surely hail/ The lovegift of a fairy tale.."

He goes on to say one way to determine if a story is a fairy tle it should be "rightly callled a love-gift to a child."  p. 27

This would eliinate a lot of pretty grisly fairy tales.

[JoanR]

A morning of coincidences!  I usually poke about in the Guardian - there I found this link to a special section they published on Fairytales a while back.  Link here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/oct/16/beastly-tales-warner

I read "Hans the Hedgehog" since that one was new to me, then responding to UrsaMajor's reference to Bettleheim, I randomly opened his book to page 70 where he embarks on a discussion of Hans the Hedgehog!!!  Well, well!  Fair gives one the shivers, doesn't it?

He says:" If these fairy stories in which angry wishes come true ended there, they would be merely cautionary tales... but while the fairy tale realistically warns that being carried away by anger or impatience leads to trouble,...good will or deeds can undo all the harm done by bad wishing."

I find that , on the whole, I prefer reading Warner to Bettleheim.  There is an article by Warner contained in that link above to the Guardian.

[marcie]

This is a great discussion of the meaning of fairy tales. Thanks especially, JoanR, for the link to the Guardian articles. I too am prefering Warner to Bettleheim. I also enjoyed the review of two books by A.S.Byatt at http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/dec/28/classics.highereducation (which was linked from the original article). In the article, Byatt quotes a description of fairy tales that she likes:
"In The European Folktale the Swiss scholar Max Luthi gives one of the best descriptions of the essential qualities of the tale as opposed to the myth, or the legend, or the authored fantasy for children or adults. He says tales are characterised by "depthlessness", a brilliant, abstract mosaic of isolated objects and colours - red, gold, blue, rings, fish, swords, cauldrons - and an assumption that their world is the whole world, though it is recognisably not the world we inhabit. They make, he says, "a provisional view of humankind and the world as a whole". Like a fastidious princess picking out peas, he sieves the Grimms for sentences about characters' emotions which are "written" sentences, literary, nuanced by moral or psychological tweaking."

One of the books that Byatt reviews is an annotated collection of fairy tales by Maria Tatar. Since Byatt says that she admires Tatar's more scholarly writing, I found that my public library has a 2009 book by Tatar entitled, "Enchanted Hunters: the power of stories in childhood" "Tatar challenges the assumptions we make about childhood reading. By exploring how beauty and horror operate in children's literature, she examines how and what children read, showing how literature transports and transforms children with its intoxicating, captivating and occasionally terrifying energy."

[marcie]

I found a very interesting video of a "roundtable" discussion of fairy tales called "Transformations: How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell" at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m8T-ZWRehw&feature=related. It's an hour and 48 minutes long but I think it's worth spending the time. Lots of interesting insights from the panel members, including Maria Tatar. The discussion itself is 54 minutes. The rest is Q&A and interaction between the panel members and the audience.

[JudeS]

I read the Warner article and the last sentence gave me pause ..Fairy tales remind us to keep our promises.

This meshed with a favorite story of mine "The Pied Piper of Hamlin".  This story really is all about keeping promises and the terrible consequences of not keeping them. It is a truly a tale of morality and yet just enough magic to hold our interest.  So we (I) can listen over and over again and never tire of it.

I am slowly but surely wending my way through Warner's book and am surprised mainly by the original grisly nature of such simple stories such as Goldilocks.  In the original the bears tear the interloper to pieces.  Now there's a moral to remember when next you are  tempted to do a home invasion.

[JoanP]

Good morning!  Two more days till we begin and already I feel behind! There is so much here! Marcie, I can't seem to carve out the hour and 48 mininutes to watch roundtable discussion on How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell   ; but have seen the introduction of the participants a number of times.     The former Harvard president impresses me with her knowledge, each time I hear her opening remarks.  I think this is important enough to put in the heading in case others haven't had the chance to listen to it.

In fact, there is so much good conversation and so many links here that I think on Sunday when the discussion is scheduled to begin, we'll stay right here in the Pre-Discussion rather than open a new site.

Welcome Salan, we are happy to have you with us - with or without the sourcebooks.  You're right, there is so much on the Internet, not to mention your own good thoughts.  You've brought up a question we'll be considering - about Fairy Tales for the young today?   Oh, by the way, whenever you type more than one question mark, you are going to get one of those little emoticons, the "huh face"...it's the software that does it.

[JoanP]

Jude, whenever anyone mentions AS Byatt, I think of the fairy queen, the Melusine in  Possession,   I think we will be talking about the ancient story when we get into the source of fairytales.  
I like your definition of a fairytale.  Notice "of some length"  leaves the question open-ended, doesn't it?  It is the  "unreal world without definite locality or definite creatures"  that allows the reader to bring his/her own world into the story.  Like staging a house for the real estate market - stripping the house of clutter so perspective buyers can see themselves living there.

JoanR -That's eerie that you opened to the Warner article in the Guardian.  Noticed that Warner references Byatt too.  
What is the reason you  prefer Warner over Bettelheim, do you think?  I'm wondering if it is because Bruno is dated, the book was written in the 1900s - in 1975.  Have attitudes changed?  Is it like reading Dr. Spock on raising a child - or is Spock "in" again?  Marcie, I'd like to hear more from  Maria Tatar on beauty and horror in children's literature.

I'm finding Bettelheim quite interesting in that respect.  From what I've read, his interest lies in the therapeutic effect of reading fairy tales - that children can handle the grisly aspects that Jude refers to - they can even tolerate the wolf eating the old grandmother.  He looks down at the modern "prettified" versions as empty entertainment...
"He (Bettelheim) goes on to say one way to determine if a story is a fairy tle it should be "rightly callled a love-gift to a child."  p. 27
This would eliinate a lot of pretty grisly fairy tales."  Ursa, do you find this confusing?  Is he contradicting himself here?  

What do you think - are children reading the old  fairy tales today, or is it all Disney's "prettified" versions?

[ursamajor]

Fairy tales have been prettified for a long time.  The ones that were read to me as a child were published in the "Through Fairy Halls" volume of the Bookhouse Books, published in the 1920s.  They were bowderlized to some extent - the sex and violence were smoothed over - but not mutilated as "the Disney versions" are.  Lang is a good deal more direct.

I find I have little patience with Bettleheim.  I marvel that he discussed Rapunzel at some length without acknowledging that the Princess and her lover were having sex.  In the older version the story comes to a climax when the princess gets too pregnant for her clothes.  I have to admit that the politest word I can find for Bettelheim's freudian analyses of the tales is "piffle".  That is not the word that comes immediately to mind.

I'm not sure children are reading anything but the Disney versions today.  I was a school librarian for a while 30 years ago and my chief frustration was that I had all these beautiful books and nobody read them but me.  Sixth graders would take home "Curious George".  Perhaps Harry Potter has changed this.  And the more I try to define "fairy tale" the more I come to think we cannot exclude the Potter books from the definition.

[JudeS]

Ursamajor
I am a fan of Harry Potter books and movies. The main difference between these books and fairy tales is the character development of all the protagonists. Harry, Ron and Hermione all change and slowly come to understand themselves and the world . They change from insecure, confused eleven year olds  into wiser , more secure and good young adults.

When I was in China in 2001 the book was everywhere (in Chinese).  In Spain, Hungary and Russia the book was in every bookstore and in children's hands on the public transportation.

In my work as a Child Therapist I watched as insecure children identified with Harry  and  learned whole chapters by heart. One boy would quiz me on my knowledge of every detail.  Of course he remembered better than I.  I don't think that there is a fairy tale that could do so much for so many as those books have done.

[JoanP]

Oh my goodness, Jude - you are just the go-to person we need to better understand Bettelheim!  You both seem to agree that the fairy tale is the  best form of literature for a child's development.  Do you happen to know if there was anything in J K Rowling's background that prepared her to become such a storyteller?  You have to wonder what fueled her imagination - and ability to communicate with children. 
I can see where her characters are well-developed compared to the fairytale, in which the characters come to us completely formed.

Ursamajor, a school librarian!  So you know what children will choose to read if given a choice.  I wonder what Harry Potter fans will choose next?   If Bettelheim believes that fairy tales are the most valuable a chilc can read, I wonder whether he has any advice on guiding a child to read them.

[MarjV]

I like this line from the Guardian article:

 Sometimes the plot follows emotional or psychological logic, but not always; a great deal of the impact of this literature depends on the stark absence of explanation

Gives us room to imagine or think without explanations.   

[JoanP]

That's a good point, MarjV -  I think one point Bettelheim makes is that adults should refrain from the tempatation to EXPLAIN fairy tales to kids...
I've probably been guilty of doing that - more than once!

[joangrimes]

I would like to join the fairytale discussion...I have always been interested in the origins of Fairy tales. Will try to contribute to the discussion since things are available online.  

What darling granddaughter Joan P and what an achievement for her. Hope she will join us in this discussion
Joan Grimes