Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online

[PatH]

 
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

 

SEPTEMBER Book Club Online

Zeitoun ~  by David Eggers

 
 

" In Zeitoun, Dave Eggers expertly captures the Zeitoun family’s story of perseverance through forces of nature and man. This book is a testament to the city of New Orleans and the survivors of Hurricane Katrina who carry on and strive to rebuild. Zeitoun is narrative nonfiction at its storytelling best and Eggers valiantly provides writing worthy of the source material."   Mike Sullivan  About.com Book review "It’s the stuff of great narrative nonfiction"  Timothy Egan ~ New York Times Book Review

SCHEDULE FOR DISCUSSION:

Sept l -8           PART I
Sept. 9 - 16          PART II
Sept. 17- 23         PART III
Sept. 24 - 30        PART IV - V

Related links::
   Photographs - America's Greatest Heartbreak;
  About David Eggers; the town of Arwad;

FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION

1. Kathy’s support group in anxious times were her best friend, Yuko, and her husband’s family overseas.  Who would you expect to be your support group if you were in Kathy’s shoes?  

2. “Syria is so much safer,” they said.  You need to move back here.”  Did the media overstate the chaos of New Orleans?  Was it correct for Mayor Nagin to assert to the world that New Orleans had become an “animalistic state.”

3. Six days after hearing Zeitoun’s voice Kathy feared the worst and, yet, she felt he was "indestructible.”   Can you understand this confusion?

4. If you had been Cathy, what would you have done? Would you have tried to go back to New Orleans? Should there have been more resources available to her?

5. The President had flown over the area and had addressed the nation comparing the hurricane to 9/11.  What actions should a President take after an internal disaster that has caused such destruction and loss of life.


 

Discussion Leaders:   Ella & JoanK

[PatH]

JoanK is absolutely right about boats.  If you feel it, there is something about them that is very powerful.  Although I’m an inept seaman, I do feel it.  I totally understand why Zeitoun bought the canoe to begin with, and how he felt paddling around in it. 

So here he is, in a complete no-man’s-land, paddling around in the eerie silence,  It’s really surreal—he can see the upper stories of everything he knows.  He’s the captain of his vessel, small though it is, back to his seafaring days.

I bet that most people, no matter how happy their life, see the appeal of a stretch of being elsewhere, out of all their normal concerns, and I think that happened here.  Zeitoun was happy and fulfilled in his normal life, but the chance to be in this isolated capsule for a while must have been pretty attractive.

[serenesheila]

PEDLIN, I have a few questions about my Kindle-3.  I am hoping that you can answer them for me. 

1.     Can I use my Kindle away from my home?

2.     Can I use it, without being hooked up to my WiFi?

3.     What must I do, to connect it to my modem?

Thanks much.  I am getting very frustrated.

Sheila

[PatH]

Well, another day, another section, and another cliffhanger.  It's getting harder and harder not to read ahead.

[Mippy]

I admit I read ahead.   It's a remarkable book!  

Sheila ~  Your Kindle can be used to read books anywhere.  You only use the WiFi to get new books loaded on your Kindle, or to off-load content into the archives.

[PatH]

Mippy, I may cave before long too.

[pedln]

Sheila, Mippy is correct.  You can use your Kindle anywhere.  And you don'y have to connect it to any modem.

Today is the 17th?  We're starting Sec. III?  I'm finally caught up with the reading, and a bit beyond, but for now we're dealing with Kathy in Phoenix.  What a nightmare for her.  She has not heard from her husband for how many days?  His relatives are calling her at all hours, telling her what she should do -- go to New Orleans, look fir him.  She wants to be brave for the sake of the kids, but wow, it's so hard.

[JoanK]

Wow is right! What would you have done if you were Cathy? What would you have thought? It makes me realize -- there must be people like Cathy after every disaster -- waiting, not knowing whether their loved ones are alive or dead.

[PatH]

Kathy's anguish is almost unthinkable.  I've occasionally been is that sort of suspense for a few hours, with the tense, nervous restlessness, the desire to do something more every 10 minutes to try to find out what's happening, etc.  It's dreadful to think of the suspense lasting for days.

[JoanP]

I can't imagine what Kathy went through either.  In a number of ways, I think her situation was worse than Zeitoun's.  Not only was she  trying to contend with the idea that her husband might be dead, she had to put on a brave face for the kids, persuading them that their father was alive - and well, saving people in New Orleans.  And then, how about the in-laws, contacting her from around the world, insisting on news of their brother.  Didn't I read that they were telling her to go into New Orleans and find him?

Do any of the post-New Orleans drama articles or interviews talk of Kathy as a hero?

[PatH]

Didn't I read that they were telling her to go into New Orleans and find him?

Yes, they repeatedly told her that it was her duty to go back to New Orleans.  What a crazy idea!  Possibly the only remaining parent of four young children, and a vulnerable woman, should go back to a city that's full of rape and murder and looting, with streets awash with raw sewage and floating dead bodies.  And what could she hope to do there? She wouldn't be able to get around, and it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

It's crazy, but it must have added to her frantic feeling and sense of guilt.

Zeitoun's family is very close and loving, and they were talking from love and solidarity, but perhaps this was as hard on Kathy as her own family's callousness.

[pedln]

My library copy is due as soon as I get home, and can't be renewed beause someone else has a hold on it -- that's good.  So I've gone ahead and just about finished it.  Have also read some media articles.  One written this past Sunday mentioned that Zeitoun is required reading this year for Tulane University freshmen.  Good.  Another article said it ought to be required high school reading, much like To Kill a Mockingbird is required.  I was happy to note that it is 14th on the NYT non-fiction paperback best-seller list.

[PatH]

Pedln, I hate to say that anything "ought to be required", but I'm pretty close to it here.  It brings up all sorts of important issues in a calm, low-key sort of way.  I finally cracked and finished the book, so I know that we'll have a lot more to say about this in the next section.

[Mippy]

Regarding required reading, I have doubts if this is a good choice for high school.   Let's talk more about this when we are near the end of the month.   Even if you haven't finished the book, it is becoming obvious that Zeitoun is going to encounter some difficulties.
In edit:  just re-read above, and noted it was required in college, which is different!

As I posted earlier, some scenes in the next section gave me nightmares.  I'm not sure if kids younger than 16 ought to read material like this.  Of course, I'm thinking of the old days before Internet, since now many kids do see lots of unpleasant and violent stuff, especially in action games.  The question is whether non-fiction like this book and the fiction of games can be distinguished by young minds.  
Shall we take up any of this later?  or is it too off-subject, JoanK and Ella?

[JoanK]

Mippy: "The question is whether non-fiction like this book and the fiction of games can be distinguished by young minds."

Of course it's not off-subject. The hallmark of a good book (and a good book discussion) is that it gets you thinking about things that wouldn't have occurred to you otherwise.

[kiwilady]

I have my book so I will be backtracking a bit as I give my first impressions.

My overwhelming thoughts at this stage are.

Zeitoun was far too attached to his assets.

He was a workoholic and expected his staff to work weekends. Paying staff on a Sunday if they have worked Mon - Fri is an offence here. You have to have the money in their bank on Friday morning so you do your payroll Thursday if the staff don't turn up on Friday they get one day deducted from the next weeks wages. (I know this as I helped my son with his new business for 7 years) Did he hire immigrants because he could pay them less money than American born workers. Also it amazed me that it seemed that the workers were not skilled tradesmen. Zeitoun was not. My son who is in the same business as Zeitoun was only hires people who have had at least 5 years training with a company and then he trains them himself as he uses a unique product which produces a surface as smooth as a babys bottom as he says. My son is also a contract consultant for a large paint company and is called in to decide whether there is a product failure or bad workmanship when there is a dispute. (This is because he learned paint chemistry and reactions during his 4 year apprenticeship. He had to go to college at night and on block courses of three weeks each year to learn this technical part of the trade) You can see I am looking at Zeitouns business from the perspective of an insider in the building industry. You see I was also a builders representative for quite a few years and had to know about everything to do with the construction business.

[kiwilady]

How do I make my post longer? The page dances after I type a couple of paragraphs. I have lots to comment on and could not fit all I wanted to say initially in one post. You don't have to comment on my posts as it will put the discussion backwards and anyhow its probably only me who is looking at the business side of Zeitouns life because of my life experiences.! LOL

Carolyn

[JoanK]

CAROLYN: that is a very useful perspective to have. I did think, reading the book, that Zeitoun sounded too good to be true. Tell us more.

In the US, it is common for workers to receive their wages a week after they do the work. But not to make them come in Saturday to get the money.

[JoanP]

Hello Carolyn!  It's good that you now have the book and are ready to jump into the conversation!  My sister has been visiting from New York and it was impossible to carve out any time to come in  to read the thought-provoking posts here - though I tried, from early in the morning to late at night!

Perhaps the jumping around when you try to post is because the compatability button needs to be pushed.  That helped me when mine jumped.
If you look up at the top of the page to the right of the browser window, the second button that looks like a torn page is what you need to push so that it turns blue.  See if that helps.

I remember thinking when that worker came to Kathy for his pay early - he was the smart one!  Do you think the others ever got paid for that week before the storm? I don't.   I've just paged through the book looking for the reason why Zeitoun didn't usually pay his work before Monday...(can't find  the answer.)  I suspect it was because he thought they'd spend it all on the weekend...am I right?  Anyway, he was smart one to ask...and Kathy decided to make an exception in his case.

[JoanP]

Mippy, I'm not sure about making Zeitoun required reading for high schoolers - BUT I'm going to admit right off that I have only finished reading Part III and see none of the violence that you speak of.  Yes, I do see the armed looters and reports of rape and other "animalistic" happenings in the Superdome - but Zeitoun seems to be avoiding these areas.  I agree with those who posted that the danger exists that Z. will be taken in custody as one of those looters - as he freely moves in and out of the abandoned houses, feeding dogs, etc.

Several weeks ago the Parade Magazine in the Sunday paper ran a list of the books College Freshmen Should be reading - these were tops on that list -

"Many colleges now assign all incoming freshman one book to read before classes begin. While conservative scholars complain that the schools’ choices are insufficiently rigorous, administrators say they’re meant to serve as ice-breakers, not course material. These five nonfiction titles are popular among colleges this fall."

Enrique’s Journey, Sonia Nazario.
The Soloist, Steve Lopez
Zeitoun, Dave Eggers
This I Believe, Jay Allison and Dan Gediman, eds.
The Omnivore’s Dilemma, Michael Pollan
 What Should College Freshmen Be Reading

[JoanP]

Kathy's support group - definitely NOT her own family in Baton Rouge!  Zeitoun's relatives abroad with their insistance that she  DO something seemed to upset her more than support her.  Yuko seemed the best at calming her.  But the scenes on television had to upset her more than even Yuko could calm her.  At least the kids are in school now  - and Yuko will be there for them if/when she decides she has to get back to N.O  to find her husband.  What would you have done?  I don't think I'd have tried to get back just yet.  The whole thing sees futile...she believes Zeitoun has drowned or been shot.  I suppose I'd have stayed with the kids.

[PatH]

Carolyn, kiwilady, it's great to have the perspective of someone who knows about Zeitoun's trade.  Payment of wages is not so regulated here; I'm guessing that when you get paid is up to individual arrangements.  But the book did say that Zeitoun paid good wages and always paid on time.  Unfortunately, that's not always true,  A scandal in my area (Washington, DC suburbs) is contractors who pick up casual labor, then don't pay them after the work's done.  They mostly get away with it because some of the workers are here illegally, and many of the rest aren't comfortable enough with our legal system to risk suing for their rights.  But how contemptible can you get?  That's stealing, plain and simple.  I hope they all have beards, because I don't see how they can look themselves in the face in a mirror to shave.

I don't seem to have the compatibility button (I have a Mac) but I also don't have the page dancing problem, so I guess it doesn't matter.

[kiwilady]

More comment. I have no problem with the head scarf. Many women in my community wear the Hajib. I do have a problem with the Burkha which is very uncommon here. Have only seen it twice. A devout Muslim woman would not be comfortable without her Hajib even amongst her non Muslim family. I don't think she should have had to remove it for the sake of her family.

I should point out here my SIL is Muslim. My daughter has kept her own Christian religion which is allowed. If a Muslim man marries a Christian woman she may keep her own religion. The husband being classed as the head of the house covers the non Muslim woman spiritually. However the opposite is not allowed. A man must convert or a Muslim woman is not allowed to marry him. My SIL however is very modern and would not expect his wife to wear a headscarf except if she went to the Mosque with him. She does not generally do this.

Carolyn

[kiwilady]

More comment. I am appalled at your military. Having had a disaster here recently we had no armed army personnel in the disaster zone. They were all unarmed. In fact I am appalled at how the whole situation was handled overall. I hope I don't offend anyone but everything I am hearing on this audio book is totally alien to our police and army culture. (We are in Afghanistan and doing relief work in Iraq) I wonder if its because we do so much peacekeeping and relief work with our army that the culture is different. We also have stringent gun laws. No gun culture.

[kiwilady]

In the circumstances I think Zeitoun should have left. If he knew the problems his nationality presented in the US he should have gone.

[kiwilady]

Usually I concentrate on characters in a book but this time I am obsessed over the awful events and what happens to Zeitoun rather than the depths of the characters.

Carolyn

[kiwilady]

I am becoming more and more appalled the more I read (no commentingon detail as yet.) This is one of the most upsetting real life stories I have ever read.

[kiwilady]

Although I think Zeitoun was wrong to stay in New Orleans my sympathy goes out to him wholeheartedly.

[kiwilady]

I could not leave this book to one side. Its now finished and I will wait for your comments now and then add my own as we go.

I had quite a few tears in my eyes before the book finished.

Carolyn

[PatH]

Yes, kiwilady, it gets pretty intense, doesn't it?  At the moment, we're talking about the section thatdescribes Kathy and the children staying with Yuko, up through the point where she gets the phone call from the missionary saying he has seen Zeitoun, so anything up to there is fair game.

[JoanP]

Carolyn, were you able to find the little blue Compatability button up on the top right of the page next to the  browser line?  I'm asking only because I see you are posting one sentence per post and suspect that you are unable to post more than that in the reply box.

Since I've only read up to the point PatH mentions...and feel Kathy's relief that her husband has been seen alive in New Orleans, I'm feeling the same relief at this point.  I guess I knew that Zeitoun had survived because of all the recent post-Katrina interviews...

What do we know of the New Orleans police in the aftermath of the storm?  Did they survive?  Certainly they were rendered ineffective.   I haven't read anything of police brutality towards their New Orleans neighbors...did I miss something?  I do know that the people camping out in the Superdome were under extreme stress due to the conditions there.  I hope that plans have been improved for when there is another emergency.  It seems a lot of people ignored the call for evacuation.  Perhaps they had no way to leave?  Are there now plans in place to help them evacuate if another hurricane hits?

I remember being relieved when the National Guard was called in to help those left behind - and to establish order in the places where violence and looting began to take place among the desperate.  
Zeitoun's relatives wanted Kathy to come to Syria - "so much safer there."  Did they mean safer because of the levees, the chance of future flooding, or because New Orleans was situated in a path for future hurricanes?  Or did they mean as a temporary shelter because the entire area around New Orleans was crowded with refugees?

[JoanK]

JOANP: we'll see more about the police as the book goes on.

CAROLYN: in the interviews with Zeitoun, he was asked how his experiences affect his views of Americans. He said that if he hated Americans, he would be exactly the same as those Americans who think that all Muslems are terrorists.

[JoanK]

How many hhave stopped like JoanP, and how many couldn't stop and have read on? I'm thinking maybe we should read another chunk now.

[kiwilady]

What was terrible was the rumours that there were attacks and rapes in the Superdome and these rumours turned out to be unfounded. There could have been terrible consequences to these rumours with so many armed men in charge of the situation.

It seems those in charge of law and order had been hyped up with their briefings and told to expect the worse behaviour so they had a predjudiced reaction to everything that happened and everyone they met.

Carolyn

[JoanK]

I think you're absolutely right.

[serenesheila]

PEDLIN and MIPPY, thank you for your answers, to my questions about my Kindle/3.  I just spent 2 hours on the telephone with Kindle support.  We tried a number of things, but nothing worked to connect me to it.  The tech rep suggested that I call my ATT.NET tech, and find out if I need another type of router.  I will do that, but not until tomorrow.  I am tired of being on the telephone, today!

I agree with those of you who found our book upsetting.  I find it very difficult to understand how our hero could have been treated so badly by military and the police.  I feel deeply sadended.

Sheila

[kiwilady]

Its very quiet in here and I wonder if like me the happenings in the book seem absolutely surreal and also horrifying at the same time. Perhaps its hard to write about it like it is for me. I feel so upset it is hard to put my feelings into words.

Carolyn

[pedln]

JoanK, to answer your question -- I couldn't stop reading  and must get the book finished to return to the library.

About Zeitoun's staying in NO -- I think in part it's just part of his personality.  He'd never left for any of previous storm warnings, so why leave for this one.  And of course, no one predicted how bad it was going to get, and the levees breaking was a surprise to all.

I thought he would be checking on all his rental properties, but the only three I hear about are the family home on Dart St., the house that Todd rents on Claibourne, and the office on Dublin. Actually , he only goes to Dart and Claibourne.

[JoanP]

Pedln, were the rental units underwater do you suppose?  I think that once Zeitoun had boarded up and did what he could to protect those units, his whole reason for staying on in New Orleans was to help with the rescue mission - and when those numbers dwindled, he was feeding the dogs.  

I've been thinking of the question in the heading - What actions should a President take after an internal disaster that has caused such destruction and loss of life?
Weren't you surprised how many people had stayed behind?  Filling the Superdome to overcrowding?  What could have been done to get them out of there?  After a few days of the overcrowding, the mayor was going to reopen the city.  It was the threat of hurricane Rita heading right at the city that caused him to change his mind.  What would have happened to all these people if they were allowed back into their flooded homes?

I think the order to send in the Coast Guard and the  National Guard  to help with the rescue was a sound decision. Do you?  But why so heavily armed?  The Coast Guard seems to be under the command of the Department of Homeland Security.  The paranoia...can we call it that...seems to be linked to 9/11.  Had that event never happened, would the rescue process have been different?

Can't you see Kathy's reaction as she searches the Internet...The Israeli mercenaries who were called in to maintain order, working with a firm called "Instinctive Shooting International"  must have been devastating.  The phone call telling her that her husband was not dead, but in prison, must have been a huge relief!  

[pedln]

JoanP, I think some of your questions about security and protection will be answered in the end of the book.  What keeps going through my mind in all of this is the President's statement, "You're doing a heck of a job, Brownie."  Someone else took over?  and that's when FEMA became part of Homeland Security?

My understanding is that things were bad even before Katrina.  The book tells us of previous failures using the Superdome during emergencies, and I remember stories from people who used to live there talking about the rampant crime.  Was it already a shattered city?  Or just one that was poorly maintained?