Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin

[ursamajor]

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Ursula Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness A classic, groundbreaking science fiction novel, which explores issues of gender role, honor, trust and suspicion, against a background of survival in a cruelly harsh wintry climate. Discussion schedule: Oct 1-7       Ch 1-6 Oct 8-14     Ch 7-12 Oct 15-21   Ch 13-17 Oct 22-28   Ch 18-20; afterword and appendices for those who have them. Link to afterword. Oct 29-31   Thoughts about anything in the book or Le Guin's other works Questions for week 4 (October 22-28) 1. Traveling on the ice and coping with the weather is described in great detail here. How did this affect you? 2. In this section, Ai feels that he finally truly sees Estraven. What does he see? 3. Why does Ai want to teach Estraven mindspeak? When Estraven learns to mindspeak, why does he hear Ai speak with the voice of his dead brother? 4. Why do you think that the Ekumen sends an envoy alone to an alien planet? 5. Why does Estraven ski into range of the border guards? 6. What is Ai's reaction on seeing his fellow envoys again? 7. What did Ai want to accomplish by going to Estre? 8. Was the ending satisfactory? 9. What are your thoughts about the controversy regarding the use of masculine pronouns for the Gethens and the discussion/examples in the afterword and appendices? Previous Discussion Questions Ursula Le Guin website     Discussion Leaders:  PatH and Marcie

The ambiguous answer is the stock in trade of human foretellers.  The Sibyl answered Croesus's  question of who will win the battle with the words "A great empire will be destroyed."  Cyrus didn't realize it would be his.

[Steph]

Foretelling is an interesting concept. I think thus far, I find the mix required for foretelling the most interesting.

[PatH]

The Sibyls tended to be pretty sneaky in their answers.

Yes, Steph, it's a strange mix.  I found the Foretelling scene kind of far out, but effective.

[salan]

Am up to date on my reading; and still not sure what I think of this book.  I am having trouble keeping track of "who is who"(or is that whom?), and with "what is what".  Can't say that I'm really enjoying it for those reasons.  Maybe my poor addled brain has been reading too much "fluff' lately~
Sally

[Frybabe]

They lacked the capacity to mobilize. They behaved like animals, in that respect; or like women.

p.48-49 in my book

What do you make of that? Women put in the same sentence with animals. Women can't mobilize? That's news to me. I think Carrie Nation, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem and all the rest would be surprised too.Maybe in Mr. Ai's world/universe they don't. Anyhow, that sentence made me sit up and say, now wait just one dog gone minute.

[PatH]

Yes, Frybabe, I sat up at that one too, but Ai then compares the men to ants.  He makes a number of sex-linked generalizations and assumptions, most of them amusing, but some, like this one, annoying.  I assume they are supposed to illustrate the thinking he starts out with, which gets challenged through the course of the book.  In Ai's world, as described in Le Guin's other books in the series, women seem to have the same sort of status and jobs as men.  (I'm not sure who does the mobilizing, though.)

Cheer up, Sally.  The worst is over.  You've met most of the important people already, and a lot of the minor figures you've met drop out, so mostly you're only following a few names.

[deems 2]

Well, I am proud to have made it through the first six chapters.  I'm with Sally.  Those names are difficult.  The foreign names of people and places were difficult, yes.  But the unfamiliar verbs and nouns were even more of a stumbling block for me.  I am not sure how much I understood of what went on in those first chapters.

I keep considering what is true and what isn't true and who to believe and when to believe them and who to trust.  Le Guin tells us to distrust everything (she) say(s).” p. xv.  Genly tells us to “choose the fact (we) like the best.” p. 1.  Then Genly tells us that he doesn't trust Estraven.  And that he doesn't like him. p. 7. Genly also tells us that he doesn't believe what he himself has said.  “I did not, in that moment believe them myself.” p. 18.  And then the king tells Genly to “tell (his) own lies, do (his) own deeds.  And trust no one.” p. 32

So for me, Le Guin has created a very uncomfortable situation.  I don't understand the language or the names.  I don't know who to trust.  And I am seeing through Genly’s eyes and Genly is uncomfortable.  He is a foreigner to this world and he is a foreigner to my world as well.

I like the interruptions of myth and history.  They progress naturally.  I am being told a story.  I am no longer in Genly’s uncomfortable skin.  Actually, when Estraven takes over the narration of the story, I am at home. Estraven isn't a foreigner to this world.  But Genly doesn't trust Estraven …

[PatH]

Welcome, deems 2.  It's so good to see you here.  That's a good description of the uncertainties one feels on reading the book for the first time.  That was a long time ago for me, and the book is easier when reread.  She gets a good tone in her myths, doesn't she?

[marcie]

What great thoughtful posts. I think our confusion is understandable and, perhaps, helps us to identify with Genly Ai. He doesn't understand the culture and he too is meeting people he doesn't know. I think maybe we're supposed to be a little uncomfortable.

Welcome, Deems2. Thanks for the emphasis on the trust/mistrust issue. It seems to have a central role in this book. A lone emissary is sent to the alien world in order to engender trust in the population, which wouldn't occur if more people were sent at once. Still, he has to earn their trust about his story (which he can't actually prove) about his mission and where he is from. Ai also has to figure out whom he can trust--or with whom he can create a trusting relationship.

Deems2, I agree that we are being told a story. You feel that the mythic/history sections help in the narration. I read somewhere that Ursula Le Guin was concerned that her publishers were going to ask her to leave out those sections since most books of the time were straight narratives, without the "interruption" of parallel stories.

I think Pat is on to something when she says that Ai's stereotypes of women (the book was written in the late 1960s) are part of the culture he brings with him. They are likely an obstacle for him on this alien world that doesn't have that kind of gender discrimination.

[Steph]

I agree that Ai's version of women and men is essential to the book, since that is being questioned on this version of  a world. I love the myths involved.. Estraven seems to have been prepared to be abandoned and makes his way swiftly through his world. Interesting. No war, but a violent world in its own right.

[JoanK]

I don't know if Ai asked the right question or not. It looks straightforward, but I'm sure at the end, we'll find out there was some twist to it.

Interesting that when the weaver gave the answer as a foreteller, he appeared as a woman, even though he is androgenous, and the quiestion had nothing to do with sex. Is that Ai's mind playing tricks?

In edit: I wrote that not realizing that I had missed the third page of posts. Yes, that must be Ai, assigning the sex roles appropriate to his planet.

[JoanK]

We have this one nation (don't ask me to remember its name) that is so disorganized it can't fight a war. Then at the very end of the selection, the Prime Minester escapes to the other nation, which seems so overorganized, that they immediately fuss about which pigeonhole he belongs into. (I wonmder if this is a takeoff on the Soviet Union as it was seen in 1960).

[ursamajor]

I have no doubt at all that Orgoreyn represents the Soviet Union of the 1960s.  As the story progresses it is unmistakable; I got the feeling of "this is where I came in" and would likely have stopped reading if not for the discussion.  I must say that Le Guin's other books are far more intelligible and I like them better.

I also think the dual sexuality of the people of Winter or Gethen is a device for commenting on the prevailing attitudes toward women in the 1960s.  The people are plainly mammals;  I cannot see any reason why people from human origins would develop into beings that could assume either sexual role.  I don't know if the book assumes the sowing of the planets with human colonies or not, but Winterians seem all to human in other ways.

[fairanna]

I am nearly finished with the 6th chapter ..and enjoying the authors writing..she has a  very creative mind >>I will have to read another one so I can compare....she writes as a reporter might ..using "real" places and people to tell us about...and I suspect at the time she is writing they are "real" to her.. I have written a number of short stories  ..based on a small sentence in a newspaper or what some one has said I can tell when I am writing the places and people are "real" to me ....I feel like I am reporting what "I know to be true" although it is totally false and the efforts of my imagination.   When you have that kind of mind it can just take you anywhere..and thank goodness for when I read the stories I AM THERE  ..so I will press on and see where the author takes us and how she sees the end...and it is GREAT to read what others are "seeing" through the authors mind....dreary day  here  c l o u d y   and r a i n y BLAH  take care all.

[PatH]

Yes, JoanK, it's definitely a takeoff on the Soviet Union, and as you point out, ursamajor, it gets more and more obvious later.  This is somewhat dated, but we'll come to some issues that are still relevant.

Something I wonder: if Orgoreyn represents the Soviet union, what does Karhide represent?  Is it supposed to be the US?  It doesn't much look like it.  Or is it just supposed to be a contrast?

Anna, I'm glad you are enjoying Le Guin's writing skills, which you appreciate as a writer, and especially glad to share something I care about with you.  As your near north neighbor, I'm sharing the same dreary cloudy rainy blah  day, but it was a good day anyway.

[PatH]

I also think the dual sexuality of the people of Winter or Gethen is a device for commenting on the prevailing attitudes toward women in the 1960s.  The people are plainly mammals;  I cannot see any reason why people from human origins would develop into beings that could assume either sexual role.  I don't know if the book assumes the sowing of the planets with human colonies or not, but Winterians seem all to human in other ways.

The issue isn't completely resolved, but we get more information as the book goes on.  The Gethenians are definitely human or of human origin.

[Steph]

Oh yes,, they are definitely human, but a variant. I am sure everyone is right, but I really believe that she was after contrast with the two nations. They are such complete opposites.. Possibly at the time this was written, she felt that the US and Russia were such opposites.. Cant say that I felt like that.. Maybe at that time in the 60's.

[JoanK]

In any case, this is far more than a "cold war" drama (although it is "cold"). I must confess to reading ahead.

[Steph]

I love the way she makes the weather into a character in the book.. I live in Florida and have such sympathy for Ai..I hate cold and snow.

[ursamajor]

I don't think Ehrenrang is equivalent to the United States at any time in history.  It is ruled by a monarch; there were still kings in the 1960s but none with unfettered power.  The story contrasts a Soviet type society with societies that existed in Europe at one time. 

[marcie]

ursamajor, I've been thinking about your question about the sexuality of the people on Winter. "I cannot see any reason why people from human origins would develop into beings that could assume either sexual role."

We do have instances of humans who have gene mutations that cause them to have biological characteristics of both the male and the female sexes. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex. I don't know enough about biology but it might be possible that on Winter those gene differences could have evolved into what Le Guin describes.

Le Guin has called this book a "thought experiment." It seems like a very imaginative way to help people think about gender stereotypes, especially the role of women during the time she wrote the book (late 1960s).

[JoanK]

MARCIE: "It seems like a very imaginative way to help people think about gender stereotypes, especially the role of women during the time she wrote the book (late 1960s).

I agree. Having cheated and read ahead, we'll find out more about how sex works on Winter next week.

[marcie]

JoanK, yes we definitely have more in store for us about the sexuality of the Gethens.

We seem to be seeing everything in the book through Genly Ai's eyes. As some of you have mentioned, he tells us that the story is all "one." He tells us that he is writing this report, even though "the story is not all mine, nor told by me alone." Throughout the book, we also read myths and read from the journal of Estraven but it sounds like Genly has been the one to put together the whole story. We're learning to see what happens and what it means by following the path Genly took. We're seeing his first impressions and hearing his first judgments of people. We'll learn along the way whether he changes his mind (and whether we change our minds) about anyone. I find it a very interesting way to tell a story, though it is a little confusing at first. I think it's meant to keep us on our toes.

[Steph]

 I agree that Ai is the storyteller in this.. Confusing at the beginning , but I am reading ahead for next week and it clears up after a bit.

[ursamajor]

There are certainly those individuals who possess both male and female sexual characteristics.  Tiresias, Elliot's "old man with wrinkled dugs" is a classical example. Wickipedia's description:

Greek mythology, Tiresias (Greek: Τειρεσίας, also transliterated as Teiresias) was a blind prophet of Thebes, famous for clairvoyance and for being transformed into a woman for seven years

However, it is highly improbable that these individual's would be able to reproduce, let alone alternate between progenitor and gestator.  Some insects can do this, though, I think.  No biologist am I.

[PatH]

I agree that Ai is the storyteller in this.. Confusing at the beginning , but I am reading ahead for next week and it clears up after a bit.

That's good, since we start talking about a new section tomorrow.

Oct. 8-14: Chapters 7-12

Of course, we can still chat about earlier stuff.

[JoanP]

Put yourself in my place - no book yet (I'm now #1 on the wait list - our library owns two copies) - trying to read your posts and Harold Bloom's always esoteric explanations as to what Le Guin is telling.  I will persevere - looking forward to the day when I can read her words myself and then reread your posts for better understanding.  It should be much easier than doing it this way.

I have been thinking about the title - and the narrator.  Bloom talks much about the sexuality of the characters and I get the sense that the next chapters will go into that.

As to the title, Bloom cites Le Guin's words, which perhaps you have already come across - (If so, can you explain her words to me?)
"Light is the left hand of darkness
and darkness the right hand of light.
Two are one, life and death, lying
together like lovers in kemmer,
like hands joined together,
like the end and the way."

Maybe this is something to be considered at the end of the discussion?

"The Left Hand of Darkness tells a story set in the distant future."

Here's what Le Guin had to say about this:

"I write science fiction, and science fiction isn't about the future.  I don't know any more about the future than you do, and very likely, less."
 I hear some of you speaking about the narrator - here is what Bloom writes...

"The narrator here is neither Ai nor Le Guin but a field investigatorof the Ekumen, wryly cataloging a weird matter."

I hope some of this helps or is of interest.  You are so lucky to have the book in hand - I hope you appreciate it!

[PatH]

Goodness, JoanP, the way you are doing it must seem pretty surreal, but I'm glad you are looking over our shoulders.  It'll be interesting to see how the book seems to you when you finally get it.  Even if you've figured out the plot by then, you will enjoy her language.

You raise a lot of interesting points.

"I write science fiction, and science fiction isn't about the future.  I don't know any more about the future than you do, and very likely, less."--Le Guin.  I recently attended a lecture by Sci-Fi writer William Gibson (inventor of cyberpunk).  He said that genres are narrative strategies, nothing more, and the best genre writers have their feet planted elsewhere.  Indeed, she's using imagined futures as a tool to say what she wants.

The title quote is from one of the Getheren religions, and we'll meet it in chapter 16 (p. 233 in my book).  I think we've already come across some of the light and darkness.  To me the religions are the most difficult aspect of the book, though rereading helps some.  Fortunately, all you need to enjoy the book is to catch the mood a bit.

[Steph]

Its the 8th,, tra la.. I am a bit more confused at this point.. This is a strange country indeed and the banquet involved so many counterplots.. Sigh.. I had hoped for none of that, but I remembered there was. Ai  seems to be content with what is happening.. It is funny, but I just dont get that someone else entirely is writing as we go along.. I will take  Blooms word for it, but it feels wrong at this point.

[PatH]

It is funny, but I just dont get that someone else entirely is writing as we go along.. I will take  Blooms word for it, but it feels wrong at this point.

I think it is wrong.  That's Ai's voice.

The story is assembled from several kinds of documents.  It opens with something clearly labeled as Ai's report, taken from the archives of Hain, dated 1490-97.  His remaining chapters are not labeled, could be more of the report.  Chapter 7 is field notes of an Investigator, dated 1448.  Ai would have had access to these, and they would also be in the archives.  Estraven's chapters seem to be at least mostly taken from his journal.  You don't know who is telling the myths and tales--they could have been collected by an Investigator, or Ai, or someone later.

I had assumed that the whole thing had been assembled by Ai, either as his report or for his own purposes.  He says that it is told in many voices, which is consistent with this.  But as you point out, JoanP, it could have been put together by a later investigator or historian.  In that case, he would be the narrator in the sense that he shaped the story by his choice of material and editing.  But it is not his voice that we hear.

[JoanP]

I can't wait for my book! I'm going to get in trouble relying on Bloom...

[JoanK]

JOANP: you're amazing! Without reading the book, you are adding so much to our discussion.

[mrssherlock]

I'm catching up on the posts.  will be back tomorrow.

[marcie]

JoanK, you're right that JoanP is adding much to our discussion and good ideas to debate...while still waiting for the book!

PatH, I too think that we're hearing from Genly Ai. He knows he doesn't understand this alien culture very well but, as the story progresses, he learns how much he doesn't know/misunderstands. We're learning from his experiences, through his point of view.

Jackie, I'm glad you're with us.

[Steph]

I gather from small clues that Ai is trying to show the men that if he is gone or lost or dead, that they will simply send another investigator.. I assume this is a built in safeguard for the envoys.

[JoanK]

"On Winter...One is respected and judged only as a human being.  It is an appalling experience."

I wonder if we would feel that way. We would learn in a hurry how much of the way others perceive us is bound up with our gender.

And we would also learn how much of how we perceive ourselves is bound up with gender. That seems to be the issue for Ai, who sees himself as a MAN. It's easy for me, as a woman, to see and sneer at that, but how much of who I am is bound up with being a woman?

I've never been a "girly girl". Having spent years as a woman in a man's field, meeting discrimination at all levels, my first reaction would be relief. But as a mother, I would feel differently. Would there be a differance on Winter between those who had borne children and those who had sired them? Would the sires resent the apparent lack of a "father's" role on Winter? A lot of questions here.

[mrssherlock]

Well, at least they have a sense of family in Ehrenrang.  Look what happens to the children in Orgoreyn, where they are raised by the bureaucracy.  It's amusing to see Genly unconsciously ascribe gender to those he meets, speaking of someone's "soft" features.  In a class on Sex Roles, I learned that when two men live together, unless one of them is named Felix Unger, no one picks up after another, only himself.  What a novelty not to feel compelled to neaten, straighten, put away. 

[PatH]

It's amusing to see Genly unconsciously ascribe gender to those he meets, speaking of someone's "soft" features.

Yes, that's one of Le Guin's very good strategies, and it often plays out to be funny.

[PatH]

In a class on Sex Roles, I learned that when two men live together, unless one of them is named Felix Unger, no one picks up after another, only himself.  

I've often felt that one possible advantage of single sex marriages or companionships might be that tasks could be assigned totally on the basis of who was better at the job, or liked it better, rather than on notions of "women's work" or "men's work".  Did your class go into that?  Does it actually work that way?

In my marriage, there were only two jobs that were totally Bob's and not mine: dealing with mousetraps, and making bread.

[marcie]

Genly does seem to be quite sexist, not in an aggressive way, but he seems to have a view of women as inferior in number of ways...typical of the time in which the book was written. I believe that Le Guin wrote him that way purposely to highlight his difficulties in accepting the genderless Gethen society. Many of his thoughts about the "womanish" qualities of some of the individuals on Gethen are definitely not "PC"!