Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin

[Steph]

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Ursula Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness A classic, groundbreaking science fiction novel, which explores issues of gender role, honor, trust and suspicion, against a background of survival in a cruelly harsh wintry climate. Discussion schedule: Oct 1-7       Ch 1-6 Oct 8-14     Ch 7-12 Oct 15-21   Ch 13-17 Oct 22-28   Ch 18-20; afterword and appendices for those who have them. Link to afterword. Oct 29-31   Thoughts about anything in the book or Le Guin's other works Questions for week 4 (October 22-28) 1. Traveling on the ice and coping with the weather is described in great detail here. How did this affect you? 2. In this section, Ai feels that he finally truly sees Estraven. What does he see? 3. Why does Ai want to teach Estraven mindspeak? When Estraven learns to mindspeak, why does he hear Ai speak with the voice of his dead brother? 4. Why do you think that the Ekumen sends an envoy alone to an alien planet? 5. Why does Estraven ski into range of the border guards? 6. What is Ai's reaction on seeing his fellow envoys again? 7. What did Ai want to accomplish by going to Estre? 8. Was the ending satisfactory? 9. What are your thoughts about the controversy regarding the use of masculine pronouns for the Gethens and the discussion/examples in the afterword and appendices? Previous Discussion Questions Ursula Le Guin website     Discussion Leaders:  PatH and Marcie

I think that as we age, we become more neutral in sexual roles. Just think of the number of people that are ambiguous to look at. I know for us after retirement, we divided up household chorese quite differently picking what we did well or liked.. My husband loved vacuuming,, doing the clothes, loading and unloading the dishwasher. He was very tidy always and picked up after himself. I was big on cooking.. ironing if it needed it ( we sent out the dress shirts to dry cleaner) picking up and dusting ( I hate dusty)..He did the outside male chores though and that is what is still driving me nuts to figure out..

[mrssherlock]

Perhaps it is another example of the times but Le Guin is strangely silent on homosexuality.  Or can it be that that is no longer an issue in Genly Ai's universe?   Lois McMasters Bujold has an entire planet without women in Ethan of Athos where reproduction is a variant of cloning as I recall. 

[ursamajor]

With every person able to assume the role of either sex, homosexuality could not be an issue.  Interestingly enough, there is no taboo against incest either.  That sort of flies in the face of reason; you can get rid of highly inbred animals when  genetic flaws manifest themselves but human genetic errors can't be eliminated so easily.

[Steph]

Aha and now I am reading that the Kemmering can be used as a weapon. Did wonder about that. Amazing..

[PatH]

It seems to me that the Gethenian single-sex system gives them just as much grief and torment as ours.  Not much is forbidden, but half the stories are tragedies of kemmerings, forbidden or gone wrong.

This happened to Estraven: he secretly swore kemmering with his brother (not allowed) so that when, after the brother's death, he swore kemmering with Ashe, they both knew it was false (not allowed a second kemmering).  After seven years, Ashe left and became a Celibate Foreteller.  They both seemed pretty bitter about it all when Ashe talked to the just-banished Estraven.

[mrssherlock]

Good point, Pat.  The "one kemmering only" rule caused as much heartache as the Roman Catholic prohibition against divorce.  Nature's imperative that we reproduce is extremely powerful.

[Steph]

The book grows darker. And very very much like the old Soviet. I had hoped not, but remembered when I was reading last night that originally I had not liked that part of it.

[ursamajor]

Maybe I missed something.  I was under the impression that the "one kemmering only" was an unusual committment, and that people had casual relationships and even children much of the time without any kind of long term committment.  I got the impression that there would have been a sexual encounter between Ai and Estraven if they had been physically equipped for one.   The whole novel is so murky I didn't know what was going on half the time.

Something I did notice is that the tale of the long trek across the frozen mountains and plains reminded me of Ayn Rand's book We the Living.  In case you haven't come across the book it is her first and rather poorly written - she didn't have the command of the English language that she developed later.  It is primarily interesting in that it shows the reader where her philosopy as displayed in Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged came from.  She has influenced too many of the movers and shakers in Washington (including Alan Greenspan).  Her belief that altruism is evil is pretty scary, at least to me.

[PatH]

Ursamajor, you're right that people mostly had casual relationships, and produced their children that way.  They only swore kemmering if there was an emotional attachment strong enough for them to want to commit for life.  There would be a problem if your partner then died and you fell in love with someone else, since you couldn't swear kemmering again.

We won't get onto the ice until the next section.  When we do, I hope you'll tell us more about Rand's book.

[fairanna]

Well I  have read further and found the whole bit about being able to be male or female DULL and boring ..It seems so far-fetched and undesirable  If there is an explanation about what happens to the children I havent read it yet ...but that really  troubles me...The mother can at one time be the father and vice versa How do children survive and the bit about them changing --the children and incest is allowed? WOW I  thought when I started reading this  it would be an adventure but now I am not sure I even wish to continue ...I will because I am curious what other ideas she has and if when I am finished I will be glad I read it  ..right now this bit offends me...anna

[mrssherlock]

anna:  Think of this book as an anthropological study where social practices are simply recorded and try not to judge.  I believe that Ai mentions early on that he believes this planet was an experiment and the biology was engineered.  I can see a cadre of psychologists saying "What would be the result of ...".  They are victims of their hormones, not masters.  A robust argument against gene manipulation in these days of controversial research with embryonic stem cells.

[JoanK]

I too was bothered by not knowing how the children were cared for and how families worked. None of the characters we meet live in families. There are mentions of "hearths", but we don't see one.

I guess Leguin is not a sociologist. She is interested in the psychological implications of androginous people, but hasn't worked out the social implications.

[Frybabe]

There is a brief mention of how children are raised in Orgoreyn. Otherwise, I don't remember seeing much mention of children or family life. If they don't normally form permanent bonds, then I guess there isn't much of a family life to mention.

[mrssherlock]

Didn't I read that children stayed with the "mother"?

[PatH]

Yes, Jackie, it says somewhere that children are reared in the "clanhearth" of the person who bore them--that's in Karhide.  It also says that about a fifth of the populace spends its time in childcare or childrearing, so they are well looked after.  It probably comes out later, but we see some signs of people feeling a family identity.

A lot of sci-fi novels kind of skirt over this problem because they want to concentrate on their characters doing other things.

[marcie]

Regarding incest, I think that the following information is given " Incest is permitted, with various restrictions, between siblings, even the full siblings of a vowed-kemmering pair. Siblings are not however allowed to vow kemmering, nor keep kemmering after the birth of a child to one of the pair. Incest between generations is strictly forbidden (in Karhide/Oregoreyn; but is said to be permitted among the tribesmen of Perunter, the Antarctic Continent. This may be slander.)"

Of course, something might be forbidden but still practiced by some.

Anna, I think that your finding some of the sexual practices offensive is similar to how Genly Ai feels. He may not be offended exactly but he seems very uncomfortable with the gender switching of the people on Gethen.

I'm wondering if the child rearing practices with the children being raised in the clan-hearth of the mother might be similar to those of a Jewish kibbutz or the experience might be similar to being raised by a single parent on Earth.

Many children of wealthy families used to be (still are?) sent to boarding schools when fairly young. Some children spend all day in day care. I don't know if the child-rearing environment on Gethen would be less advantageous for children.

[mrssherlock]

at one time in my career i worked in an organization which supported various activities for the gay, lesbian, bisexual aqnd trans-gender population of my county.  Being around male and female homosexuals was pretty straightforward but the trans-gender folks were not as easy to interact with.  I could never feel that comfortable acceptance of one another as is true of two women sharing the mirror in a rest room, for instance.  Partly it was the secrecy maintained, no one could tell and it was only after I had known some of them for several months that I sensed it.  This may be similar to Genly Ai' feelings, never being sure if the other is male or female.

[Steph]

Since they seem to be able to be one or the other and dont choose.. How can the female at the time of birth raise a child?? I am confused about that aspect of this.. Also of course in the casual relationships. I would gather you could be the male of a coming child and also a female bearing a child at the same time.. Uncomfortable to imagine.

[PatH]

Yes, it seems confusing and messy.  I think the parent who bears the child could raise it even if from time to time they switched sex, but it doesn't seem to be done exactly that way--more like being raised by the parent's extended family.

[marcie]

The situation with the genderless Gethens who assume a gender each month really is quite imaginative. The expression of that kind of imagination is one of the reasons I enjoy science fiction.

[mrssherlock]

Marcie:  Hear! Hear!  Sometimes the application of logic destroys the fantasy.

[Steph]

I love fantasy , but in this case, I would guess that I simply do not deal with the raising of the young in a genderless situation.. Plus the more I read, the closer to the Soviet Union the book is becoming. I guess I had forgotten that .

[ursamajor]

I also equated the rearing of children with the Israeli kibbutzem.  I wonder if these still exist in Israel.  I once read about a study put together to prove that children so reared were less well adjusted than those reared in families; the opposite proved to be true.

Our culture is so permeated with gender distinctions it is hard to imagine one like the Gethens.  We have separate words for the male and female of most species:  mare/stallion, sow/boar, cow/bull and so on.  Also separate pronouns for the genders.  I believe this to be true in most languages.  If anyone reads one of the Asian languages I would like to know if it is true.in that part of the world also.

[PatH]

...the more I read, the closer to the Soviet Union the book is becoming. I guess I had forgotten that .

I had forgotten that too.  It dominates things more than I remember.  Or maybe, since that time is so far in the past now, it's more jarring.

[PatH]

Marcie and ursamajor, your comparison to kibbutzim makes the child rearing make more sense.  JoanK, any comments on this?

[JoanK]

The childrearing in the second country certainly sounds close to that in kibbutzim, with an important difference: on kibbutzim there is a period each day that the children spend with their biological parents, and no other activities are allowed to interupt it. A friend in Israel who had left the kibbutz complained to me that now that her children were living with them, she saw much less of them than she had on the kibbutz.

[marcie]

I appreciate the good discussion that Ursula Le Guin's idea about a different kind of gendered society has generated here.

I'm also interested in the idea of Shifgrethor that she introduces and how it stands in the way of communication between Genly Ai and Estraven when Estraven is trying to allow for Genly to keep his pride by not seeming to give him advice (not realizing that he actually wants it).

[Frybabe]

I am not sure what Shifgrethor means or is. Somewhere later in the book if makes a reference to it being kind of like a shadow which really didn't help. I expect it has something to do with an ethical value system. Or maybe a form of moral and ethical conduct (manners?) that strictly adhered to keeps people from getting into fights, etc. It kind of reminds me of the strict system of formal behavior the Japanese had (still have?) when greeting others.  Anybody got a good definition of it?

[marcie]

Frybabe, I think that your partial analogy with the Japanese code of conduct works for me. I think of it as a sort of pride/face saving that extends to how one treats others as well as protects ones own sense of self respect. I got a feeling for the word while reading the book but not a definition.

I too could use help with the "shadow" reference.

[Steph]

However it is used, Ai does not understand it at all.. Does anyone know if the animals are male and female on the world?? I dont remember seeing anything about it.

[PatH]

Does anyone know if the animals are male and female on the world?? I dont remember seeing anything about it.

There are a couple of brief references.  Yes, the animals are permanently male or female, as here.  Perhaps the idea that it's like "lower" animals increases the disgust the Gethenians feel towards Ai's sexuality.

[PatH]

For me, shifgrethor is one of the more difficult concepts of the book.  I agree with Frybabe and Marcie;it seems to be a sort of combination of a system of honor and a code of face-saving behavior.  I read somewhere that the word is derived from a Gethenian word for "shadow", which doesn't help much.  Elsewhere, a man's name is referred to as his "shadow".  Maybe shifgrethor is the shadow you cast in the world.

For anyone who has read Lee and Miller's "Liaden" series, it reminds me a bit of a solemn sort of "melanti'i".

[PatH]

"But I really don't see how anyone could put much stock in victory or glory after he had spent a winter on Winter, and seen the face of the ice."

(The last sentence of chapter 7, from the report of an Investigator.)

This is where we are heading now.  Things change for our protagonists.  After a chapter of human brutality or indifference, we are out in the inhuman, unforgiving, natural world, and will, indeed, start to see the face  of the ice.

[Frybabe]

I liked the imagery of the ice and volcanoes, and the absolute brutality of the weather. Nevertheless, I was impatient for them to get across the ice fields and back to civilization. The Eskimos have many names for snow (I think around 100) and ice so do the Gethenians.

[Steph]

This part of the book is brutal as to weather.. Not much fun..

[ursamajor]

The technology is interesting, though.  Wouldn't you like to have a patent on the little stove they used for everything from warmth to cooking?

[PatH]

I'd love to know how the stove's "bionic powered" battery works.  It seems improbable.

[JoanK]

I just looked at the questions, and they really make me think. Can you imagine yourself as Ai, having abandoned everything for this one mission, and facing possible failure? What kind of man is he?

[marcie]

I think that Le Guin was able to create the terrible Winter weather and landscape conditions very well. I could see  how their situation ranged from hypnotic to frightening.

JoanK, Ai seems like someone who was mostly able to put his mission ahead of his personal feelings. He knew it was possible that someone else was going to see the mission fulfilled and that he might be only part of the first steps. When he asked the Foretellers if Winter would join the federation he didn't ask if it would happen in his lifetime.

[PatH]

Right, Marcie, Ai knew Winter would join the Ekumen within 5 years (unless the prediction has a quibble) but he didn't know if he would be responsible, or even alive.  At the moment, out on the ice, his chances don't look that great.