Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin

[PatH]

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Ursula Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness A classic, groundbreaking science fiction novel, which explores issues of gender role, honor, trust and suspicion, against a background of survival in a cruelly harsh wintry climate. Discussion schedule: Oct 1-7       Ch 1-6 Oct 8-14     Ch 7-12 Oct 15-21   Ch 13-17 Oct 22-28   Ch 18-20; afterword and appendices for those who have them. Link to afterword. Oct 29-31   Thoughts about anything in the book or Le Guin's other works Questions for week 4 (October 22-28) 1. Traveling on the ice and coping with the weather is described in great detail here. How did this affect you? 2. In this section, Ai feels that he finally truly sees Estraven. What does he see? 3. Why does Ai want to teach Estraven mindspeak? When Estraven learns to mindspeak, why does he hear Ai speak with the voice of his dead brother? 4. Why do you think that the Ekumen sends an envoy alone to an alien planet? 5. Why does Estraven ski into range of the border guards? 6. What is Ai's reaction on seeing his fellow envoys again? 7. What did Ai want to accomplish by going to Estre? 8. Was the ending satisfactory? 9. What are your thoughts about the controversy regarding the use of masculine pronouns for the Gethens and the discussion/examples in the afterword and appendices? Previous Discussion Questions Ursula Le Guin website    Discussion Leaders:  PatH and Marcie

[marcie]

Yes, Pat, I think that the ice journey is suspenseful. It's not clear what will happen to either of them or both.

[Steph]

 I guess I have assumed that Ai was trained to believe that you might fail, but there would eventually be a success,, just not you. I suspect being the very first envoy was an honor.

[JoanP]

Happy day!  Library informed me the day before yesterday that my copy of the book was in - I picked it up and have read the first 6 chapters.  I know you're not impressed, as I'm still way behind.  But I am determined to catch up with you, without boring you with observations on those early chapters.  Well, how about just a few that I'm not sure were mentioned here.  (I only read your posts from the first week...)

* Le Guin's subtle humor - I'm really "digging" it~ and looking for instances of it now that I've started to notice it.  "Genry," Ai tells the Orgota...(because he knows Karhiders can't pronounce the "l"...)
"My landlady, a voluble man"  - do such phrases stop you in your reading?
"Ai's beard had been depilated" before coming to Karhide - so he wouldn't appear manly...he has to look male or female?
Ai has covered his manly characteristics beneath heavy clothing...

* Ai sounds like an ambassador from the West to me - from the US?  Thinking he can bring peace to warring factions all over the world - is this the naivete of the West?
* Ai doesn't seem to trust or like Estraven because he appears to be a man, yet he had womanly characteristics.  Is it this incongruity that makes Ai distrustful?
*Patriotism is born out of fear...isn't this true to a an extent?  I'm thinking of the period following attack- Pearl Harbor, 9-11 - never is patriotism more on display.
*Do you believe in telepathic communication?  (Not sure, but I want very much to believe that it is possible.  Don't really believe in foretelling though.)
*Foretellers - I think Ai asked the right question because it was "answerable"  in a yes or no form.  He asked the right question because it was the one thing that he really needed to know.
Faxe, the Weaver,  with the beautiful face - "hard and delicate"  delivered the answer to the question.  He/She is pictured on the book's cover, no?
So Estraven has made it to Orgoreyn and learns from two of the Commensals that Ai has requested permission to enter the land.  The two will meet again.

JoanP - in hot pursuit of my cohort...

[PatH]

JoanP, I'm so glad your book came--I hope it isn't too overwhelming to read it fast.

Indeed, there's a lot of understated humor in the book, including some of Ai's observations about gender.

Some that I underlined (these are after chapter 6, but don't give anything away):

"...I think we shall have trouble learning how to lie, having for so long practiced the art of going round and round the truth without ever lying about it, or reaching it either."

Describing a politician:  "His type is panhuman.  I had met him on Earth, and on Hain, and on Ollul.  I expect to meet him in Hell."

"...like most economic explanations it seems, under certain lights, to omit the main point."

[PatH]

* Ai doesn't seem to trust or like Estraven because he appears to be a man, yet he had womanly characteristics.  Is it this incongruity that makes Ai distrustful?

Clever observation.  Remember it.

You won't bore anyone with obsevations on the early chapters.  The more thoughts the merrier.

[mrssherlock]

Winter camping.  Does Yosemite at Thanksgiving count?  I loved it but when the kids brought a piece of ice from the creek which was nearly 0.5 inches thick, everyone else voted to go home.  That heater/cooker/light sounds miraculous.  Also their tent, our typical camping tent was like mosquito netting in comparison.

[marcie]

Steph, yes, Ai puts the mission of the Ekumen ahead of his personal ambitions.

Yikes, Jackie, I don't think I'd do well camping in the ice.

JoanP, hooray! I'm glad you have the book. Thanks for sharing some of those humorous passages.

It's interesting that you say "Ai doesn't seem to trust or like Estraven because he appears to be a man, yet he had womanly characteristics." He appears to be judging the population on earth-human criteria. It seems like a close to insurmountable obstacle for him to accept the non-gender condition of the people of Winter. Le Guin seems to be raising a question of whether identifying...and differentiating between... male and female colors our basic relationships with everyone.  

[Steph]

I am beginning to see that LeGuin did have in mind challenging our preconceptions of gender. I have been trying to see what my built in predujudices are.. They are certainly there.

[fairanna]

Well I  keep "reading" but I feel like I am reading a language never heard of and I find it a problem to try and recall what the heck the words refer to.......I know I have read in the past science fiction and enjoyed .while the stories then were about a "out of this world " place the author used words I understood and didnt have to keep wondering WHAT IN THE HECK does this mean.
I find it tedious myself and rather dislike the whole concept....Hope November brings a book I wont have to analyse everything but can understand where it is coming from....I have Nicholas Sparks new book ---Safe Haven ...and it is in ENGLISH and my poor head wont have to ask WHAT DOES THIS MEAN>>>you are a brave lot. anna

[JoanK]

"Le Guin seems to be raising a question of whether identifying...and differentiating between... male and female colors our basic relationships with everyone."

Do we think she's right? I keep going back to my days in the fifties as a woman in a man's field. Every time I met a new collegue, it seemed to me I had to work hard to get him to see me as a collegue, not as a woman. I didn't dare do anything "feminine". (It only worked to a limited extent: in the first place I worked, the women were payed half of what the men were, and were not accorded professional status, even though we all did the same work).

By the time I retired, things were much easier for women. They can be "feminine" and professional too. But I'm sure there is still some sex overtones in all our relationships. Have you ever met or seen someone of whose sex you are not sure? I have, and it made me deeply uneasy, even in a context where sex should have been irrelevant.

[JoanP]

Nearly caught up - will start chapter 13 tomorrow.  I've enjoyed your comments - noticing and thinking about things that just flew by me in my solitary reading.  That's the value of these group discussions, don't you think?

JoanK - I know what you mean about feeling uneasy in the presence of those I can't identify with - just not comfortable with those who are overzealous - one way or another, who try to convince me that their views are the only ones.

"shifgrethor,"  - why can't I remember the meaning of this word every time I see it?  I'm assuming Le Guin coined the word - but can't tell what she had in mind when she did.  "shif"?  grethor? I come up empty when trying to "translate"...

I've made a note to myself that I keep referring to whenever I see it - "shifgrethor - a way to save face by avoiding confrontation"

Genly Ai is good at shifgrethor, don't you think?  His greatest asset seems to be patience. How do you think this is going to work out?  Is Ai more apt to convince a mad monarch to joint the Ekumen than go against the bureaucracy of the Orgota?  I think I'd put my money on the Karhide king...Seriously, do you think Genly Ai will succeed in his mission?

 About the children of the kemmering - (the idea of public kemmering houses got my attention at first - but now I'm used to it -  Where else does one  "kemmer"?
The children seem to be the primary focus for all those between 17 and 35...but is this system working?  Somewhere in these chapters, I remember reading that the children are running wild.  Maybe that's not a bad thing here?

Reading about the stages of kemmering - the whole cycle, it is understandable why the Orgota regard Genly Ai with awe - he is in a permanent state of kemmer!

[Steph]

But we consider their inability to have sex as they want as something the animals contend with.. The cold is a living thing in the book.. Since I hate cold, I know what they mean.

[PatH]

JoanP--great, you're closing in on us.

Ai may be very patient, but he still finds dealing with shifgrethor trying.  At one point when he is in Orgoreyn, he says:  "Manners here were certainly differentfrom manners in Karhide; there, the fuss he was making would either have degraded his own shifgrethor or insulted mine; I wasn't sure which, but it would have done one or the other--practically everything did."

[PatH]

Have you ever met or seen someone of whose sex you are not sure? I have, and it made me deeply uneasy, even in a context where sex should have been irrelevant.

Interesting--I've never had that experience.  So you're well primed to understand Ai's uneasiness toward the Gethenians.

I've sometimes been in a situation where I felt someone was interacting with me purely as a person, with no recognition of gender, and I found it very refreshing, but I was probably kidding myself about the nature of the exchange.

[PatH]

The cold is a living thing in the book.

It certainly is--and a dominant and important one.

[ursamajor]

I have struggled with the definition of shifgrethor also.  It seems to be sort of a combination of "honor " in the old-fashioned duel fighting sense and a refined system of each trying to out manoever the other,  It made me very uncomfortable, as does interacting with people who are extremely manipulative.

[PatH]

Me too, ursamajor, and I'd hate dealing with a system where every tiny nuance is important.

[marcie]

I think it's an interesting point whether the formality of the shifgrether is more freeing or less freeing to interactions. It isn't an exact parallel, but I'm reminded of some people who say that many young people today have no manners or respect for others. They don't know or use the "code" that older generations grew up with--rules/ways of civil interaction with others that could be counted on to smooth the way.

Ai doesn't know the shifgrethor rules and has no feeling for them. There is a lot of miscommunication due to that.

[marcie]

Joan, I'm not sure if Ai's permanent kemmer state is regarded with positive feelings. I think it's considered a perversion and distasteful much as Ai is fundamentally shocked by the Gethens. He writes early on in his report: "Cultural shock was nothing much compared to the biological shock I suffered as a human male among human beings who were, five-sixths of the time, hermaphroditic neuters”

[JoanP]

Since Steph brought us animals - are there any here ? - there must be - wasn't there mention of meat and animal products? - I've been thinking of the animials' physiological  make-up.  If they are in permanent kemmer, then it stands to reason that Ai would be regarded as a lower being on a par with animals...

Remember when Gaum came on to Ai, trying to seduce him as a woman?  Ai felt himself responding...  Poor Ai - in permanent state of kemmer, the object of everyone's attention, male or female - at all times!  Did you understand that Gaum was trying to become impregnated with Ai's child?

[PatH]

It's confusing to remember who is the narrator at any one moment, but it was Estraven that Gaum tried to seduce.  Gaum thought Estraven was a Karhidish agent, not simply an exile, and was trying to buy him out or get information from him.  I doubt Gaum intended to have a child, he probably used a contraceptive.

[PatH]

You're right, JoanP, animals are mentioned occasionally, and they have the sexuality we are used to, and that probably adds to the disgust the Gethenians feel for Ai.  Since kemmer is so overwhelming for them they probably also have trouble understanding how Ai can function normally in his permanent state.

[Steph]

Most animals stay in one sex, although there are some rare insects that dont.. But they cannot become pregnant except at stated times.. Whereas this is more like the people..
By the way on sex. it does seem to me that in a lot of cases, the older we get the more ambiguous some people get. I know I have seen people and know several that could be either male or female.. They simply do not seem to be strongly one of the other.

[ursamajor]

A comment I heard a long time ago is

"If absolute male is A and absolute female is Z, there will be some people who fall around M or N."

I remember I was in a sex education class (for my sins) when I returned to college.  An unmarried middle aged woman commented that, after all, sex was such a small part of life.  I thought of my five children and thought it all depends on your point of view. 

[PatH]

Estraven and Ai have a particularly interesting conversation almost at the end of chapter 16.  It starts with Estraven quoting a poem, the origin of the book's title.

Light is the left hand of darkness
and darkness the right hand of light.
Two are one....
like the end and the way.

They talk about wholeness and dualism, Estraven insisting that his people aren't just obsessed with wholeness, but are also dualists, Ai seeing "Yes, it does, after all, go even wider than sex."

This dualism and oneness seem to be a main theme of the Handdrata religion, and seem to be based on Taoist thought, which runs through a lot of Le Guin's work.  I'm pretty ignorant of Taoism; are there any experts out there who can help?

[PatH]

The conversation continues with Estraven asking Ai what the other human sex is like.  The answer is amusing; Ai flounders around for a while, and finally says  "I can't tell you what women are like...."In a sense, women are more alien to me than you are.  With you I share one sex anyhow...."

[JoanK]

PatH"This dualism and oneness seem to be a main theme of the Handdrata religion, and seem to be based on Taoist thought, which runs through a lot of Le Guin's work."

I don't know anything about Taoism, either. But I have heard a discussion of the Taoist (?) symbol, the black and white circle with ying and yang (the feminine and masculine principle) curving into each other, with a dot of yang in the ying and vica-versa. It is supposed to show something about the relationship of dualism and oneness.

One meditation technique is to listen for the quietness within noise, or the stillness within motion.

[JoanK]

Here is the symbol that I was trying to describe:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.indianeye.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/yin_yang.png&imgrefurl=http://www.indianeye.org/2008/01/17/yin-yang-and-the-philosophy-of-the-sexes/&h=300&w=300&sz=19&tbnid=6WFfwETVdBiHbM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyang%2Band%2Byin&zoom=1&q=yang+and+yin&hl=en&usg=__nB6ryZx3m935fd4z09bAR1FXzPM=&sa=X&ei=HY7ATPbwIoiosAP7nbydDA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwBA

[JoanK]

The Wikapedia article on it is interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

[JoanK]

I think the thing I will take away from this book most vividly is the winter landscape.

Winter storm
In a world of one color
The sound of wind.
                             Basho

[PatH]

JoanK, you just summed up practically a whole chapter in 14 syllables.

[marcie]

JoanK, I think that Le Guin would appreciate your using a haiku (by my favorite haiku poet!) to comment on the winter references. It seems to be in keeping with the Taoist principles that permeate her writing. The haiku could be a more wholistic approach to understanding and appreciating the Winter landscape that she has created in this book.

[Steph]

Oh JoanK.. the haiku does so describe winter to me.. Thanks.

[PatH]

The end of the road--now we'll come down from the ice and find out the answers to our questions, or as many answers as we're going to get, and speculate on what we don't know.

Now we can talk about the rest of the book.  Has everyone finished it?  If you haven't, you might want to be careful reading comments until you do to avoid spoilers.

[PatH]

I guess everyone is still reading.  Well, no  spoilers in this post.

Chapter 18 is remarkable.  JoanK's haiku sums up a lot of it.  The theme of the center comes up again.  "We are inside, the two of us, in shelter, at rest, at the center of all things."  Ai finds out what his own center is.  Alone on the ice, dependent on each other for survival, the two at last come to understand each other.

[marcie]

 

Here is the symbol that I was trying to describe:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.indianeye.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/yin_yang.png&imgrefurl=http://www.indianeye.org/2008/01/17/yin-yang-and-the-philosophy-of-the-sexes/&h=300&w=300&sz=19&tbnid=6WFfwETVdBiHbM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyang%2Band%2Byin&zoom=1&q=yang+and+yin&hl=en&usg=__nB6ryZx3m935fd4z09bAR1FXzPM=&sa=X&ei=HY7ATPbwIoiosAP7nbydDA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwBA

JoanK, the ying/yan symbol that you linked in your post is the one that Ai shows to Estraven when, during the grueling journey, he finally comes to see Estraven as he/she is. I'm thinking that the state of acceptance of "both sides/opposites" as the whole is also linked to shifgrether. There seems to be an aspect to shifgrether that is the avoidance of imposing ones views on another person.

PatH, I think you are right about Ai coming to understand something about "centering" (the line between the Ying and the Yan). The Taoist influence seems to be that a person has to see the whole of things, people, the world...for himself and accept without preconceived ideas.

[JoanP]

Weren't you beginning to wonder what would happen when Estraven went into kemmer - when they planned to be together for 70-80 days, the two of them enclosed in that  little two-man tent?  Only when Ai and Estraven recognized the sexual tension for what it was, they were able to come to an understanding of one another Once they talked about it in the open   - Ai is finally able to see Estraven as both a man and a woman for the first time.   I love the symbolism.
Understanding this,  Ai can now accept him as a friend.  They would have come together as aliens had it been otherwise, Le Guin writes.  

There is something about Ai that reminds me of the coming of  the Redeemer sent to save the world.  Did anyone else sense this?  Everyone urges him to call down the Star Ship - both Obsle and the Orgota - and Estraven and the Karhides.  They need PROOF that he is who he says he is. Taking it further,  the Redeemer did not show the PROOF until his death.  I have no idea how this is going to end for AI.  Do you feel that he summon  the Ship before the end?

Somewhere in Chapter 17, I began to sense that Estraven is not going to make it. Karhide's king is expected to welcome Ai, but Estraven is still the Exile who will remain in hiding.  Has he sacrificed everything - including his life because of his belief in Ai's mission?

"With luck we'll make it, and without luck we shall not."  Here's to luck - and a happy ending!

  So many underlined passages.  I must learn more about Ursula Le Guin!  Her other books - her background.    She's not only a very creative,imaginative writer, she KNOWS so much - Science, Math, the outdoors...


 .  Won't be back for another day or two until completely caught up with you. Have only read through Chapter 18...

[marcie]

JoanP, yes I was wondering how the relationship between Ai and Estraven would develop when Estraven was in kemmer--especially since Ai was originally put off by the Gethens "duality." When Ai was able to accept the whole of Estraven, he finally recognized that Estraven was the only person who had accepted Ai from the start and befriended  him. Ai has finally been changed by the personal relationship he developed with Estraven during their torturous journey over the ice and snow.

As  you say, if they had attempted a sexual relationship, it would have emphasized their alien differences. Ai tries to bond with Estraven through mindspeak. Why does Estraven hear Ai's communications in his brother's voice? Does he associate Ai with the brother he loved?

[PatH]

The differences are important too.  "But it was from the difference between us, not from the affinities and likenesses, but from the differences, that that love came: and it was itself the bridge, the only bridge, across what divided us."

Can one only love the other?  Although Gethenians are all the same, they are opposites in kemmer, so their love could still be for difference.  Lots to ponder on.