Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online

[JoanP]

TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online

Excellent Women

Quartet in Autumn

 

British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with  humor, a very dry humor.  Both Pym and Austen were  concerned with the marriage of their heroines,  before they become "spinsters." (Note that  Austen and Pym never married.)   It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage.  In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel.  Will this be the case with Pym?

The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952,  considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry  without the romance or risk remaining a spinster.   The woman is 31 years old!  
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers,  as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources.   Pym  is fascinated  by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
 

Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15     Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20   Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter

Some Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration
Nov. 11-15
Chapters 1 - 11  

1. Here we have four very different characters, each important to the development of the story.  Does any one of the four stand out more than the others?  Which one made the most impression on you?

2. How does this office foursome  view one another?  

3. This book is set in the 1970's and written almost 20 years after Excellent Women.  Does anything initially make you aware of that?

4. Do you find this a different type of book compared to Excellent Women?  Do the two have similar qualities?
How would you compare Midred Lathbury with Letty Crowe?

5.  Have you noted any of the references to "autumn" in these chapters?  What is the feeling  these references convey?

~~~

Related Links:
Barbara Pym Biography; Barbara Pym Society; "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings

***Readers' Guide questions for Excellent Women

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln (for Quartet in Autumn )

[JudeS]

ZEBRA CROSSING?

Oh my did someone miss seeing the Beatles famous album of them crossing the street at a ZEBRA CROSSING?
It's a black and white grid on the road for pedestrian crossing.

Orvieta? Hmm.  Sounds like a horrible English version of Ovaltine.  I'll look it up on Google.
Now I can't find the post from the person who asked about these words. They are so typically British.

[JudeS]

Couldn't find Orvieta but found Orvieto which isa n Italian Bed and Breakfast.

I apoligize for maligning the name of Ovaltine.

[JoanP]

What’s an Orvieto?
Orvieto is a town and winemaking region in the southern part of the landlocked state of Umbria in north-central Italy, a tortuous 90-minute drive north of Rome. They make some red wine around Orvieto, but its claim to fame is its white wine made from a blend of trebbiano, verdello, canaiolo and grechetto grapes, with perhaps a splash of malvasia.

Apparently, Orvieto wines were a favorite tipple for Pope Gregory XVI, leader of the Catholic Church from 1831 to 1846. In more recent times, the other thing that Orvieto wines are famous for is their spectacular ordinariness. http://blogs.ajc.com/drink/2010/09/26/ruffino-orvieto/

[marcie]

I am finding Quartet in Autumn funnier than Excellent Women. I'm assuming that Pym meant the books to be comedies. Not slapstick but a witty view of the human condition, specifically some single people--including some eccentric characters.

There are serious issues in Quartet (I'm only partway through it) but they are not treated solemnly but with ironic humor. I think that Pym has created characters with whom I can have some sympathy in a weird way but that doesn't stop me from seeing them as humorous at times. For example, I laughed out loud at the effect of Marcia's eyes on various people. When Letty first speaks directly to her: "She [Letty] tried to smile at her, but when she looked at Marcia she saw that her dark eyes were alarmingly magnified behind her glasses, like the eyes of some nocturnal tree-climbing animal.  A lemur or a potto, was it?" Marcia's (internal) response to Letty is also in the animal vein: "Marcia, glancing sharply at Letty, thought, she's like an old sheep, but she means well even though she is a bit interfering at times."

I think you have to read this stuff slow and let it sink in. It's really hilarious in the way that I find British humor to be (from watching BBC programs). In the book, you hear the characters' internal dialogs contrasted with the settings they are in (eg, Norman's visit to the hospital to see his brother in law; Letty visiting her old school friend and the cleric she has invited). I am not usually a very "visual" reader. I don't picture the characters or actions but something about Pym's writing makes me picture --or maybe it's hear--something that is quite funny.

[Gumtree]

Zebra Crossings - we have them here and they work well - though I always keep an eye out to make sure the traffic is actually stopping. In some places they are well policed and woe betide anyone who doesn't stop if a pedestrian looks as if he/she is just 'thinking' about crossing. Oddly enough motorists who will happily run a red light will never fail to stop at a zebra crossing.

The question "Could this story be happening in another coountry or time?" interested me.

Yes, me too - To me Pym's stories seem to be quintessentially British and although there are still aspects in Australian life which reflect our British heritage they are now just a faint reflection of the original. I can't really see Pym's story transferring to a Sydney setting with Aussie battlers as  the protagonists.

Having said that, I think that all societies have much the same problems relating to individuals who are lonely, ill, or insecure either emotionally or financially - sometimes both - and for whom retirement presents huge changes and problems.

The question of women devoting themselves to working in Church activities was also raised. I know women who do just that - they are from all religions not just Anglican or Roman Catholic.  One lady in particular comes to mind who is involved with a Protestant Church - she is married, has children, grandchildren and a full and worthwhile life beyond the confines of the church. Even so she devotes a considerable part of her life to running church activites, fund raising and community service and has done so all of her life - as did her mother before her. Excellent Women in every respect.


 -

[Gumtree]

and Marcia--what word would you use for someone who sneaks her garbage into the library and hordes tins of food and milk bottles???  Despicable, maybe?

H'mmm - despicable seems a little harsh - I would say eccentric certainly - or as the Brits might put it 'dotty' - someone who may not be completely rational in their behaviour.   Marcia hides the boxes etc which are 'too good to throw away' in inconspicuous places in the library and while that is not acceptable behaviour the librarians are on to her and no doubt deal with the matter efficiently and without fuss or confrontation. I doubt that they would despise Marcia for her conduct but rather think that they would consider her to be a cross they had to bear.

[rosemarykaye]

I agree - not despicable - she doesn't hurt anyone by her actions -  but certainly eccentric or batty.

Off to the wilds of Ardnamurcan now, see you tomorrow night 

Rosemary

[salan]

I stand corrected.  I agree, Marcia is not despicable.  Her personality stands out more than the others, even if her actions leave much to be desired.  Which ones do you find least memorable and why?  Just curious.  I am finding this a quicker read than EW, but so far, I prefer EW.
Sally

[bellemere]

I can see in the chracters of Quartet in autumn, a common trait.  They are trying strenuously to maintain dignity by not appearing "needy".  Theypractice giving the impression that their lives are perfectly fine, complete.  But the phrase"quiet desperation" comes to mind.  Some, like Letty and Edwin , think about dying alone and unnoticed.  Edwin cheers himself up by reminding himself that he at least has a married daughter who would be aware. 
This book is humorous, yes, but isn't there underlying sadness, also.
Regarding the response of the slumped lady in the subway: Iwas given the same answer by a little old lady who was playing two slot machines at the ship's casine, even tho there was a sign asking people not to do that.I pointed that out. she  Sure set me back a notch.

[JoanP]

Sally, I was going to ask you if you had once been a librarian when you saw Marcia's behavior in the library as "despicable."  It was pretty gross. "Batty," "dotty" -  yes.   There are signs that Marcia is going "around the bend"  as Norman put it - I find myself wishing that we had known her earlier - before her surgery.    Don't you find yourself trying to understand her behavior?  She is a lot more needy as she lets on.  Remember when she followed Norman into the British Museum during their lunch hour?  They never get together.  They never have lunch together.  Though she does make coffee for him.  That's about it.

"Quiet desperation" - do you see Letty in this category, Bellemere?

Do you see anything of Mildred Lathbury in Marcia? I'm thinking of Mildred's attraction to the married Rockingham Napier.  She knows it won't go anywhere, but she feels good when with him - she feels his interest in her.  Marcia seems feel this way about Dr. Strong.  
It just occurs to me - that Marcia has just had a mastectomy - not long ago, I read that Barbara Pym had breast cancer during this same period.    Her novels reflect her own life, we are told, she writes of what she knows...

Which character do you find the least memorable, Sally   asks...
My first impulse is to say Norman, but I find I change my mind as Pym focuses on each character...

"the wilds of Ardnamurcan?"

[pedln]

JoanP,  I believe Marjorie plans to become the wife of Father David, and live in the vicaridge.  So the former plans of Majorie and Letty to live together after Letty’s retirement are down the drain. And now her current housing is going to have a new owner, with a much different cultural background than Letty has ever experienced.  Have any of you ever had to move because of a landlord?  And Edwin seems to be the only one who is willing to help her. Why is that?

They are trying strenuously to maintain dignity by not appearing "needy".  Theypractice giving the impression that their lives are perfectly fine, complete.  But the phrase"quiet desperation" comes to mind.

Good point, Bellemere.  Are they succeeding?

Gumtree, what about Edwin.  Do you see him as an “Excellent Man,” or does he wear different stripes.

I am not a health care person or a psychologist, but I think Marcia is depressed, as well as otherwise ill.

[ursamajor]

I think Bellemere has put her finger right on all four of the characters.  "Needy" is the operative word.  The story makes me uncomfortable; while the characters could not be anything but British, I know there are people just like them everywhere.  Marcia would benefit so much from having a housemate or even a little company, but she is too frightened of appearing needy or being inconvenienced to respond to the logic of sharing her house  or to overtures from the social worker.

Letty 's situation is the most critical.  She had a reasonable retirement all planned, and all at once her plans are blown to pieces.  "Batty" is a good word for Marcia.  Todys's librarians have their crosses to bear.

I agree that this book is funnier than Excellent Women, but it is a bitter, sad sort of humor.  I am finding the story quite depressing.

[JoanK]

SALAN: "I find it a little frustrating that BP depicts single people as leading rather dull and narrow lives."

I agree. Pym constantly seems to give the choice: get married or live a dull and narrow life. When I worked in the government, I worked with many never-married people: men and women, although more women (more single young women come to Washington than single youngmen, so there is an imbalance of opportunity to meet a partner). They all seemed to live interesting busy lives, with lots of friends and interests (actually, although it's satisfying, there is no life narrower than that of a mother of young children).

I was particularly struck by the boring holidays the characters in QA took. At work, you could always tell who was unmarried by the exotic holidays they took: holidays that those of us with children in college couldn't begin to afford, even though we made the same amount of money.

[JoanP]

JoanK, do you think that Barbara Pym might have been unhappy at this time - suffering from cancer and all?  I'm guessing that she didn't have an exotic holiday planned.  None of the office mates seemed to enjoy their holiday...but they would not admit that to one another.

Ursa, do you still have the Pym autobiography?  Was she depressed at this time - late seventies?

I don't see Letty too concerned about where she would live when Marjorie's plans changed. I can't see Letty living in that small community with Marjorie anyway.  It was nice of Edwin to take the responsibility for finding a place for her - but I could see her staying on with the Nigerian family, couldn't you?

[ursamajor]

Letty seems a little more flexible than the other characters, but I can't see (myself or) her living with the Nigerian family.  Their lifestyles were too dissonant.

I will check the biography (which I haven't read) and see if Holt mentions Pym's state of mind when QIA was written.  I took the autobiography back to the library.

[bellemere]

I think that Letty staying with the Nigerian family could have been a whole other story, possibly a more cheerful one.   She expresses the thought on Christmas that their Christmas would surely have included her.  I have gotten that far in the book, but I am wiaiting for the other shoe to drop re Mrs. Pope.  And surely someone is going to discover Marcia's nuttiness , if not the dairy company wondering where all the bottles are going then maybe the advent o the plastic milk carton will be her undoing? Just speculation.

[ursamajor]

I did look into the biography by Hazel Holt entitled A Lot to Ask.Barbara Pym was almost certainly depressed when she wrote QIA.  This was toward the end of the period when no one would publish her books; in addition she was recovering from cancer and what sounds very much like a small stroke.  Aphasia at a drinks party n Sunday morning...Later a slight feeling of pins and needles in my right hand.....  Also several of her friends had died, including two men whom she had at different times thought of marrying.

I also learned that QIA originally was called Four Point Turn a title with no meaning for me.

[salan]

JoanP.  I was not a librarian, but I was a teacher.  I have always used and loved libraries; so perhaps that was why I was affronted.  However, I would have felt that way about her leaving her trash anywhere, except where it belonged.  I agree, she was more "dotty" than despicable.  I am wondering if she will get even more so now that she doesn't have a reason to get out in the world.  So far, Edwin and Marcia's personality stand out the most.  I am wondering if BP will develope the others as the book progresses.
Sally

[nlhome]

I thought the lives these 4 lived were quiet and very conservative, but I don't think they made a lot of money in their jobs, did they? Even in Europe back then, travel could be expensive if a person didn't have a lot extra to live on. So they had to be careful how they spent, and that probably translated into taking less risks in their activities as well.

They had reached the "autumn of their lives" and didn't have much hope of improving their finances.

[JoanK]

Marcia is clearly a hoarder. I see her getting worse and worse and ending up like the Collier brothers. Remember them?

[rosemarykaye]

Hello, I am back from our trip to visit my son - we drove there over the Lecht and through Kingussie and Fort William (in snow/rain), and back today through Glencoe, Crieff and Perth in glorious sunshine.  There was snow on the mountains, and the trees further down were beautiful, the colours spectacular.  Out at Ardgour (where he is spending the year) we saw wild mountain goats, stags and herons, and he regularly kayaks with a seal following the boat.

I wonder if "four point turn" was a play on "three point turn", which is a manouevre you used to have to do in the driving test - if you touched the kerb as you turned the car round, you failed.

I think very few people in post war Britain took foreign holidays unless they were super rich. Most of Pym's characters take trips to British resorts or country towns, although a very entertaining pilgrimage to Rome is undertaken by a Parish group in one of the books.  By the 1970s, package holidays had made foreign travel much more available, but it would still have been viewed with suspicion by many older people - and I agree, lowly office workers probably couldn't afford it.

In my last job, I had a secretary who was in her 40s and lived alone.  She was a very interesting, active, enterprising sort of person, who did masses of hill walking, but her holidays were nearly always taken in the UK because she simply couldn't afford to go abroad.  I do know single people who have much more money than I do because they are not having to cover their children's education, etc, but I think they are the ones with professional salaries.

Rosemary

[JoanP]

They had reached the "autumn of their lives"

 nlhome, do you feel a sense of sadness when the leaves begin to fall?  My husband does - while I love the crisp cool days with the colors of the changing leaves and the deep blue of the sky.  In the Washington metro area, fall is the best season of the year - in my opinion.  For Bruce, it is a reminder of the passage of time.  

Ursa, I thought it was interesting to that Pym intended to name this novel "Four Point Turn."  Rosemary, I too thought of a driving maneuver. (Your trip sounded wonderful, a grand escape from the worries of house-selling.    I got to thinking that these four seem to go out of their way to hide from one another, to avoid one another on the street - or in their homes.  Avoiding their curbs?  Do you think that's what she intended with that title?  
Quartet in Autumn...  I think Pym regarded autumn the same way that Bruce does...  Falling leaves, the woman slumped  on the train platform...fallen.  The four have nowhere to go on their holiday - would prefer to be at the office, don't you think?  
It makes me wonder what they will do when they retire.  Must they retire?  Do they have a choice?  What will they DO with their time?

Those "extra days would accumulate like a pile of dead leaves drifting on the pavement in autumn."

There are more such comments about autumn in this book.

JoanK - do you think most people have a reason for hoarding the things they do?  I can see me turning into a hoarder - hanging on to things that I might need some day.  My grandson recently had a great time going through the Halloween costumes his father and brothers wore - 30 years ago!  Maybe I was hoarding them - for just that moment.  Who were the Collier brothers?

[JoanK]

The Collier brothers were two brothers that were found dead in their apartment. They had so much stuff there, a pile of stuff had fallen over on one of them, so he couldn't get out, or help his brother who was didabled. They both starved to death. Police found years worth of piles of newspaper and four grand pianos, along with incredible amounts of other stuff.

[pedln]

Ha ha, JoanP, the Collyer brothers were a pair of real life New York hoarders, now epitomized in E.L. Docotorow’s novel Homer and Langley.  No one want s to be the Collyer brothers.

Rosemary, your travels sent me to my online map of the world to find those places you visited.  Is the Lecht a mountain or a ski resort?  It’s amazing how little we (I) know of other parts of the world.  I never would have associated skiing with Scotland.

nlhome, I think, too, their lives were very quiet and conservative.  It’s almost like they didn’t no what to do with themselves when they were away from the office.  I wonder if that’s one of the reasons Edwin went to so many church activities – to be around other people, and to be sure that he would run into Father G, so they could go have a drink together.

They have a hard time reaching out to others, even among themselves, but more so with strangers. I’m thinking of Letty at the Rendevous restaurant.  She could have spoken to the man who was there when she arrived, or to the woman who took his place when he left.  In fact, she started to make overtures for conversation, but Letty did not respond.   We do find, that Letty has been on trips abroad – to Spain and Italy.  With Marjorie.  And it seems that Marjorie has always been the leader, with Letty following along behind.

Rosemary – what would we do without you.  The term pensioner pops up often in British Lit.  But surely they are not all the same.  How does the pension from the State work?  Is it like our Social Security, based on contributions,etc. (I can’t even ask the question properly because I get a teachers’ pension instead.)  Or does everyone get one, regardless of work?

[JoanP]

If you overlook the dust, Marcia seems to have organized her hoard, don't you think? Plus she was quite selective about what to keep.    Poor poor Collyer brothers...

[nlhome]

JoanP, I actually like fall and feel more energetic then. "October's Bright Blue Weather."  But I can understand Bruce's feelings - especially on a late fall day like today: gray, damp, even a little snow, and now with the return to standard time, the early darkness. Moving toward winter. Really. Symbolically (is that a word?)

Pedlin, I thought that too of Edwin.  I think all four of them were tentative in their relationships.

[JudeS]

If anyone is truly interested in hoarders there is a program on TV called "Hoarders"  which goes into the life of the hoarders in their filthy homes and each week offers help to two people suffering from this serious disorder.  The program uses three types of help:Psychological, physical (a large and efficient clean up crew) and an organizer who, if the situation is hopeful will help the person reorganize their life.  They also bring in friends and family members who are willing to give of their time and effort both as a support system and in helping the hoarder reorganize his/her life. In some folks it may be a little quirk . In others it is a life disturbing disorder.

[rosemarykaye]

In theory everyone in the UK is entitled (at least so far!) to a state pension.  There is a minimum amount and I think you get a bit more if you have paid more national insurance.  The state pension is paid gross but is taxable - so if you have a lot of other income, it needs to be added in to calculate your tax liability.  Many people also have pensions from their former employment and/or pensions they have "bought" from insurance companies, but these don't affect your entitlement to the state pension, which used to be paid to women at 60 and men at 65, although that has now been made 65 for all, and is shortly to be made 66 or 67 I think.  "Pensioner" is often used as a generic term for older people, as is "OAP" (old age pensioner - the pension used to be called old age pension, though it's been called state retirement pension for many years).

The Lecht is a ski resort between Alford and Tomintoul - I am not quite sure if the mountain is also called that.  There are other Scottish ski resorts at Cairngorm, Glenshee and Glen Coe.  They were all set up in a blaze of glory some years ago, but until last year winters had been getting warmer and warmer, with virtually no snow, so the resorts had been doing really badly, although they have tried to diversify a bit with other attractions.  Last winter, however, we had absolutely tons of snow, and they had their best season for years.  I imagine that they are all mostly used by Scots, as you would be taking a huge risk to book a ski-ing holiday here.  My children, however, learned to ski on the dry ski slope at Alford and then at the Lecht, although my husband now takes the elder two to stay with a friend in Germany every year to get a guaranteed week's ski-ing.

Rosemary

[rosemarykaye]

Jude S - we have a similar programme called How Clean Is Your House? - I find it too painful to watch, as although some of the people are clearly just slobs, many seem to me to have real psycholgical problems that need more help than just a couple of busybodies bossing them about and telling the nation about their strange habits.

JoanK - yes, I could easily be a hoarder if I didn't have a husband who interferes with my hoarding!  I still have some of my daughters' baby clothes - he's not giving those to Oxfam 

Joan P - Although I don't know what BP intended with that title, I do think that's a brilliant interpretation - the thought of them all delicately manoeuvering to avoid too much closeness to one another.

Rosemary

[salan]

Okay, I confess.  I was up early this a.m. and finished the book.  Consequently, I will remain silent until others catch up.  I'm afraid my comments might give something away.
Sally

[ursamajor]

I have finished it too, so I better hold any further comments.  I was a little surprised at the ending.

I still have a few baby clothes also; these were worn by all five of my children; alas, the baby is fifty this year.  However, I regularly take things to Goodwill, and I have been giving away things like my sterling and the dinner dishes used only at Thanksgiving and Christmas.  The kids called it the " Passover China", completely confusing our friends who knew we were Episcopalian.  It was a great relief to pass on the silver tea sets bought by my mother to two of the daughters.  My mother loved silver and always had a servant to polish hers.  Those days are long gone now.

[marcie]

I've finished the book also. Despite it being just about the details of four "ordinary" single older people, it really kept my interest. I guess I don't see the book as being primarily sad. I think it is, on the whole, optimistic but based on (as one review said) an "unsentimental" view of each character. I was laughing out loud at many passages.

I found a review of another of Pym's books in which the reviewer briefly outlines the plot and then says: "It sounds psychopathic, but it's actually a brilliant comedy of manners at which Barbara Pym excels." I think that statement applies to this book. I think that if we are open to the comedy in the book, it has quite a different effect than sadness.

[pedln]

Rosemary, thanks for the info about the pensions.  Very interesting.  It sounds like the “pensions” bought from insurance companies would be like what we call “annuities.”  Is the term “senior citizen” used in the UK, or would that be the “pensioner.”?

Sally and Ursa, w’ll be taking up the rest of the book tomorrow, so I don’t think you have to worry much about holding back.

I think we all probably agree that Marcia has severe mental and physical problems.  Does she need a keeper?  What do you think about Janice, the volunteer from the medical center who keeps coming by to see how Marcia is doing.  Wow.  Talk about a Freudian slip ..

 “Some of us at the Center have been worrying about the lonely ones.  I mean people who live alone.”  I was glad that in spite of all her problems, Marcia stood her ground and did not let Janice intrude on her life.

When I first started reading Quartet there was an article (which I clipped) in one of the AARP publications about a woman who asked her state Human Services dept for help in selecting an assisted living place for her uncle. Without her knowledge the DHS visited him in his home,  obtained a court order, removed him from his home and confined him to a psychiatric facility.  The court-appointed convervator liquidated nearly everything in  his home including family photos and his Korean War uniform.  It took 8 months and the help of a state senator for the woman to get guardianship of her uncle and place him in  more suitable living quarters.

I don’t know if Pym had concerns about unwanted intrusions.  Perhaps those of you who have read her biography or her other books have some insight into that.

We have a few other peripheral characters in addition to our quartet.  What are your thoughts about Marjorie, Mrs. Pope, and Nigel and Priscilla?

[pedln]

Marcie, I just saw your post.  I wish I could say that I see the humor in this book.  There have been a few spots, but nothing like Excellent Women. Perhaps it's because these people seem so isolated and don't know how to take the opportunities given them to be otherwise.

[ursamajor]

In my view Marcia preserved her privacy and thereby lost her life.  She just starved to death because she didn't want anyone "interfering" with her.  It was too much trouble to open the tins of food and it would have spoiled her obsessive arrangement of them.  The cans she did try to open were left over from the cat, who had been dead for years.  In the British usage she was "stark, staring bonkers".

I don't think anorexia had been invented in the 1970s and I'm not sure it its definition fits Marcia anyway.  She was surely obsessive compulsive, but eating may have been just too much trouble.  She persistently refused all efforts to help her and was overwhelmingly suspicious of even her old colleagues.  The business about the "foreign" milk bottle in which Letty had given her milk was especially telling.

Does anyone else think the legacy of her house was out of character?  She had not displayed any interest in Norman before.  And Norman certainly didn't know what to do with it.

[JoanP]

Ursa -even though she doesn't show it, or even acknowledge it, Marcia does notice the little offers to help - though she usually rejects them - or simply stares when offered tea or when invited to lunch. (Dr. Strong was the one exception..)  She does share coffee with Norman.  She does show some interest - followed him to the museum during their lunch hour.  We'll have to look closely at the second half of the book when we begin to talk about that tomorrow.

I got the feeling that the state pension to which everyone is/was entitled back in the 70's was not really much to live on, unless one lived quite frugally.  Maybe Marcia knows this...which would explain the hoarded tins of food.  She'll eat them some day when she's really hungry.  Do you think this is comparable to our Social Security benefits...never really intended to be the sole means of survival in old age.  It seems that many have forgotten that.  Mention of the "welfare state"  is not spoken of favorably in Quartet, did you notice?   - that's just an impression I got.

I agree, Ursa, Marcia is not anorexic - she simply has lost interest in food. We're not told why - except that she is recovering from surgery.  Perhaps Barbara Pym feels the same way as she writes this?    I wish we could have learned more about her from earlier novels.  I checked Hazel Bell's Index - no Marcia Ivory..
 
Thinking back about what Tom said in his post last week.  He thought it better to read the books chronologically - as they were written.  Perhaps the change in the tone of the novels would have been less perceptible had we done that - rather than skip from those excellent women in the 50's all the way to the Quartet in the late 70's.

Can you imagine Mildred in the 70's?  She'd be working -  about to retire. Probably full time, in an office.   Would she have given up on church attendance altogether as Letty has?  In Quartet, only Edwin attends services.  He is similar to Everard...but I'm looking at the "spinsters"  of the 70's.  Life doesn't seem as easy as in the 50's - even with assistance provided by the state.  Harsher, less personal... Pedln, do you think that Janice shows real concern about Marcia - or is she just doing her job, going through the motions.  Does Janice work for the state - or for a church group?

You asked earlier about Edwin taking responsibility for finding lodging for Letty...  a good question.  He takes the role of an "excellent woman" don't you think?

I'm also interested to hear of instances of humor here - things that made you chuckle...shall we keep a list?

[PatH]

I had trouble getting into the novel at first.  It doesn't have the sparkle of "Excellent Women", nor the wit.  But I gradually fell into the rhythm of it, and enjoyed it.  The humor is much more muted, but still there.

[JoanK]

SPOILER ALERT. Read when you finish the book.

Interfering. Hmmmm. We hate Marcia's interfering friends, and yet she starved to death, and nobody stopped it. When should one interfere, and how? Should her Doctor have dragged her off to the hospital and fed her intervenously? Should all the people who fussed about her eating have done more? If so, what?

Notice, she didn't feed herself, but fed the other three, when they took her tinned food.

[marcie]

We are told Marcia experienced rationing during the War and I think she was afraid she would run out of food if another war or disaster occurred. Also she was concerned about not having a milk bottle to get milk (she recalls the saying "no bottle; no milk). Those fears seem to have fed into her obsessive/compulsive collecting tendencies.