Author Topic: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online  (Read 79148 times)

bellemere

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2010, 11:16:32 AM »
 
TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online

Excellent Women

Quartet in Autumn

 

British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with  humor, a very dry humor.  Both Pym and Austen were  concerned with the marriage of their heroines,  before they become "spinsters." (Note that  Austen and Pym never married.)   It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage.  In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel.  Will this be the case with Pym?

The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952,  considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry  without the romance or risk remaining a spinster.   The woman is 31 years old! 
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers,  as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources.   Pym  is fascinated  by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
There is much to consider and discuss in these two novels. 


Discussion Schedule

November 1 - 5  ~ Chapters 1 - 13
November 6 - 10 ~     Chapters 14 - 27
           

Some Topics from Excellent Women for Your Consideration and Discussion beginning Nov. 1:  


1. From her portrayal of Mildred Lathbury, can you tell how Barbara Pym views the life of an unmarried woman, the spinster?

2. How does Mildred  see herself? How old is she?   Is she resigned to spinsterhood or is she still hopeful the right man will  come along?  At the start of the novel, do you think Mildred sees herself as one of the  excellent woman of the parish?

3.  What did you think of the male characters in Excellent Women?  Were any of them comparable to Jane Austen's men?  Were any of them interested in Mildred?

4. Do you find examples of Barbara Pym's Oxford education in her fiction?  Does she flaunt it?  Do you think Mildred attended university?

5. Barbara Pym's forte is said to be  comedy.  Would you say the same is true of Jane Austen?  Will you share some examples from Excellent Women?

6. Will you note and share some of the cosy details  characteristic of Pym's novels, especially the kitchen and cookery details?

7. Mildred seems to spend a lot of time in church.  Do you think it is because she grew up as a vicar's daughter or do you think religion was more important in the 50's than it  is now?

8.Finally, do  you see Mildred becoming one of the "Excellent Women"  of St. Mary's parish?


~~~
Related Links:
Barbara Pym Biography; Barbara Pym Society;

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln (for Quartet in August )




To my great disappointment, I read that the Barbara Pym Society is having their Annual Tea in Boston, next Saturday!  I am actually making a bus trip to Boston for a long planned trip to the Salem Museum with my daughter to see the Treasures of the Forbidden City, a traveling exhibit.  The Tea only costs ten dollars if you bring a "suitable tea cake" to share, and otherwise it's fifteen dollars.  A smallprice to meet and talk with some Excellent Women.  It is being held at the Church of the Advent (very high)  from 3 to 5.  I just can't make it, my bus for home leaves at 3:15.  But supposing I were to go, what would you say was a "suitable tea cake"?  
Maybe I will try to make the annual meeting at Harvard next spring. But this tea is so timely; what a pity.

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2010, 11:38:30 AM »
Oh that is such a shame bellemere!  My great Pym group on-line friend Susan Bramson will almost certainly be attending, and she always says these events are wonderful (in fact I thought she said they had a tea only a month or so ago? - but time flies when your brain cells are flying with it...)

Susan always posts great reports of the Pym conference itself - I am hoping to try to go myself next spring as it sounds brilliant, although obviously it is not a light undertaking from NE Scotland.  If you can go, I'm sure you'd enjoy it, and I could ask Susan and other people in the US group to look out for you.

As to which cake - I was thinking along the lines of a coffee and walnut cake, or maybe Madeira with the proper candied peel).  I'm sure seed cake features in at least one novel, although I've never had it myself.  If anyone has the Constance Spry cookery book, I'm sure a lot of the recipes in there would be appropriate.  Constance Spry was primarily a celebrated flower arranger, but she started the Cordon Bleu school in London with her great friend Rosemary Hume in 1945.  The cookery book is a wonderful read - in their time they cooked for the Queen's coronation (origin, I believe, of Coronation Chicken) and her wedding.  In amongst the chapters on things like The Cocktail Party, "rechauffees" and "pieces froides" (French was the language of smart cooking in those days), there is a section on English cakes, with recipes for such things as "Lorrimer Plum Cake", "Luncheon Cake", and Bath Buns.  Buns from Boffins (- a famous Oxford cake shop) are frequently mentioned in BP's novels.

The BP Cookbook quotes an extract about afternoon tea from "Less Than Angels", and follows it with:

"This might also be a description of the tea ceremony organised by the BBC at our (ie Hilary and Barbara's ) cottage for a television programme called  "Tea with Miss Pym" in June 1977, when Barbara was interviewed by Lord David Cecil (whilst trying to stop our cat Minerva from putting her paw in the milk jug)."

Rosemary

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2010, 11:46:24 AM »
Joan P - I think religion was more important then, certainly in the UK, but it was partly a class thing - my parents would never hace gone to the local C of E church where I grew up, and for my mother that would have been because she saw it as something "not for the likes of us".  When I, much against her wishes, joined the Brownies, which was then more closely attached to the church than it is now, my mother was mortified to have to attend Brownie church parade.  She saw the vicar's wife as someone to whom she almost had to curtsey.  In those days vicars, teachers, lawyers and bank managers were alll treated with the same degree of deference.

I don't think Mildred comes from much money - after all, she lives in what used to be called "reduced circumstances", and does have some sort of job - but her background will have been very middle class, and in those days the Church of England was very similar.  Chapel was indeed a very different concept, but would not have been very common in suburban London.  Also, it would have been perceived as a Welsh thing I think.

Got to stop, just realised have abandoned daughter at a birthday party and need to retrieve her!

Rosemary

fairanna

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2010, 11:56:16 AM »
Rosemary it is lunch time here and  Now I am not satisfied with just a sandwich I WANT A PIECE OF CAKE!  Reading about the cakes you mentioned brought back the memory of my best childhood friend and her grandmother who ALWAYS baked a black walnut pound cake on Sundays...THAT goes back more years than I will tell and all these years I have promised myself to bake one THIS WEEKEND I WILL DO THAT! I am sure it wont taste as good but I will say thank you to her and to you for the inspiration..

I have been reading the book and enjoying it very much,, When my husband died 16 years ago I couldnt sleep well so I went to the library and told th librarian I wanted some  peacefu books to read..off hand I cant recall the name , but it was a British female author who wrote about this little town. It was interesting and peaceful and I read everyone of her books...They didnt give me bad dreams  and only pleasent thoughts...and this book is doing the same...I am looking forward to our discussion and I will tell you how my black walnut pound cake comes out ...anna

CallieOK

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2010, 12:09:42 PM »
Anna, were the peaceful books written by "Miss Read"?   Over the years, I have read and re-read those in times of stress.
I agree that "Excellent Women" has a similar tone.

However, I'm having difficulty staying with "A Very Private Eye".  Reading BP's diary entries is a little like reading someone's Facebook posts.   However, I'll keep going and, hopefully, find some things that will fit into the discussion.

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2010, 12:24:12 PM »
Hello Anna,

That walnut cake sounds delicious - yes, let me know how it turns out, I will have a virtual (and less fattening) slice  :)

Were the books you mention by "Miss Read"?  She wrote a whole series set in the fictional village of, I think, Thrush Green.

I love peaceful books - Excellent Women is a good one, Quartet In Autumn is not so "peaceful".  Some Tame Gazelle is a really lovely read in which (as my son used to shout when we heard a loud crash from upstairs) "nothing bad happened".  Have you ever tried Alexander McCall Smith's books?  He writes prolifically - may favourites are the Scotland Street books, but my mother really likes his No1 Ladies Detective Agency books, all set in Botswana, where he lived for a time.  They have been televised with some success too.  The Scotland Street ones are all set in Edinburgh.  Another author who gives me great pleasure is EE Nesbit - her books were written for children, but they are wonderful to read as an adult, as you get all the subtexts that passed you by the first time.  Her most famous book is The Railway Children, but my favourite is The Treasure Seekers, about some children who need to make some money to help their impoverished father.

Enjoy the cake!

Rosemary

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2010, 12:30:04 PM »
Callie,

If you can get hold of "A Lot To Ask", Hazel Holt's biography of BP published in 1990, you may find it an easier read.  I enjoyed it very much.

I see you had the same idea as I did about Miss Read - I remember reading her books as a teenager, and loving them.  My mother thought they were boring - but then, she stayed up at night to watch Psycho by herself shortly after my father died! We are not alike!

My elder daughter is not (yet) into Barbara Pym, but her comfort reading is Jilly Cooper's early novels - "Harriet" was the first, and I must say I also loved it when I decided to see what she was burying herself in.  I think too many people write Jilly Cooper off as a chick lit writer - she is worlds away from much of the dross that is published "for women" today, and IMO a great writer.

Rosemary

bellemere

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2010, 04:45:39 PM »
To RosemaryKay: Skip Madeira cake with candied fruit; send coffee walnut cake recipe. 
Keep in touch about the Pym society conference in the spring.  If we don't sell our house (we kick that idea around) I may be able to offer you a private room and bath for part of your stay.  It would be a pleasure.
Is now the right time to address the thoughtful questions of our leaders. ?

PatH

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2010, 11:13:28 PM »
Goodness, ursamajor, that song brought memories back--I probably haven't thought of it for 40 years!

fairanna

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #89 on: October 31, 2010, 02:36:43 PM »
Yes it was Miss READ,,,,I needed some pleasent books...and they were that and I suggested to a friend who lost her husband do the same and she  felt like  I........I will have to get one again .there are times when mysteries and even love stories of today are TOO INFORMATIONAL  it is like reading a magazine with all the lurid details  .........I grew up wtih good parents, brothers, neighbers and other relatives It was a very pleasent childhood and then I had the good fortune to marry a man who was the same ..and our children were a joy and now as I am alone they make efforts to help me etc...I need little help since .have always had an interest in  work that  requires physical effort   I will think about  what I have gained so far and report in tomorrow  NO BAD DREAMS HURRAH!   anna [/b]

bellemere

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #90 on: October 31, 2010, 05:00:57 PM »
Well, I took the plunge and joined the Pym society and my daughter and I are going to try to attend at least an hour or so of the tea. I understnad somebody has a Pym friend I should look for.  Tell me a little bit about her, will you? 
What would you ask these members if you were at the tea?  Iwill ask on your behalf.
Regarding our questins, No. 1: Ithink Mildred regards her life wih equanimity.  She is far from miserablek lonely or deptressed, but knows there doew exist something else.  Her observaqtion of the Napiers' tumultuous marriage gives her one perspective.  In the Vicar's courts;hiip of Allegra she observes the folly of a man beguiled by a woman with her own agenda.  Every year a the annual lunch withDora's brother she reconfirms her feeling that he is not for her, but can't seem to entirely dump him. And her observation of Everard Bone puzzles her; he is sort of like the inscrutable Mr. Darcy in P and P.  But his invitation to comeover and cook for him makes her visualize her possible life as Mrs. Bone.  Not entirely satisfactory; a replica perhaps of the President's wife who sleeps through his speeches.  But she too has ways in which she is set, and her independence is important to her. She is pretty contemporary in this, don't you think?

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #91 on: October 31, 2010, 05:12:44 PM »
Hi Bellemere,

That is great, I really hope you enjoy the tea.  My friend is called Susan Bramson, she is probably in her 60s and she lives in Philadelphia.  I will e-mail her and ask her if she is going.

I will also find the coffee and walnut cake recipe and post it!  Thanks for the offer of a bed next year - I will see how I get on with my plans and let you know, it's really kind of you to offer.


bellemere

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #92 on: October 31, 2010, 08:50:57 PM »
You may send Susan my email: pdreger92@comcast.net.  Philadelphia is my city-in -law.  My husband went to St. Joseph's Prep and St. Joseph's University.
I live about 80 miles from Boston, a 11/2 hr. bus ride. 
I will be receiving the Society newsletter and will keep you all informed about their doings.

JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #93 on: October 31, 2010, 11:29:17 PM »
Now this is getting really exciting!  Our first recruit to the North American branch of the Barbara Pym Society - who will attend the Boston Tea Party on Nov. 6, no less!  Bellemere, this is fantastic!  Our own "envoy" - yes, we will definitely provide you with questions to take from the group!  We'll keep a list growing in the heading of the discussion for you to print out before you leave for Boston!  
I agree with others here - about the walnut cake - I think that would be glorious - I did find this recipe- doesn't look too complicated  - though not sure how frosting would travel... what do you think, Anna Fair?




and now the news that Rosemarykaye may journey across the ocean for the next Barbara Pym conference too! Please, will you post more details - where, when?  Maybe more of us can attend with more planning time?

"I think religion was more important then, certainly in the UK."  Rosemary, I was interested in your comment and have been thinking of  how it is in the US today.  I guess one can only speak from one's one experience.  My first thought - the 30 year old young women in our parish today...  there is a Youth Group...for young adults 20-30 and then another group 30+.  The group seems to be singles doing fun things - ski trips, etc. - though they do participate in charitable ministries - refurbishing  houses, etc.  In co-ed groups.  Older women in the parish take care of "jumble sales"  - flowers for the altar, etc...

Now I think back to the 50's and 60's...again it was not the 30 year old single women doing the parish work.  I'm not sure what to think of young Mildred spending so much of her time doing parish duties.

fairanna

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #94 on: October 31, 2010, 11:59:04 PM »
I think the cake is what she most likely made and the only recipe I have thought about using was a plain yellow pournd cake with the addition of the black walnuts.>>Jean, my friend, her grandmother never put icing on the cake .It was moist andDEE-licious  I think one reason it impressed me because it was so good sans icing..And since her grandmother was like my mother they did all the Sunday meal on Sat and was reheated on SUn and the cake may have been made even on Frday because the butter made it really special,,and no I didnt bake it this weekend since I planted day liliies on Sat after tilling a peice of ground 5 times to make it loose, raking it and then digging 20 holes for the lillies   Sunday turned out to be Hallloween so I had other fish to fry...BUT as soon as I clean my kitchen left unattended while I did the garden ,,,TOmorrow _Mon_ I will clean the kitchen and bake the cake I purchased fresh black walnuts and will tell you how it tastes but I suspect it will be at its best say on Wed and THurs ,and I will print out the questions to think of my replys ..all the spinsters ladies I knew had a great life;;;tea parties , bridge or canasta groups.scrabble groups  .,,,taking vacations together I dont think they envied the married ones....let's face it everyone doesnt have a perfect marriage......

with divorce and affairs which reading about you would begin to think NO ONE HAS A HAPPY MARRIAGE

and the ability to have very good jobs now which gives them a lot of freedom   I dont think women nowadays regret staying single..that is the way I see it anyway ..love to all anna

JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #95 on: November 01, 2010, 12:20:36 AM »
Thank you, Anna!  I don't believe the black walnut cake needs frosting, either.  Perhaps a bit of powdered confectioner's sugar, if anything?


At last - November 1 -   This discussion of Excellent Women is Officially OPEN for your comments!

Everyone is invited to drop in for some tea and biscuits - at any time of the day or night!

Let's begin with the first two questions - with comments about Mildred -   What did you think of her?  Is she someone you would consider for a friend?  Does she seem to want or to need friends?  Do you think she is happy with her life?  Does she "regard her life wih equanimity"  as Bellemere sees her?  Does she see herself as one of the "excellent women" of the parish?

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #96 on: November 01, 2010, 04:34:20 AM »
Bellemere - I will pass that on.  Susan in fact e-mailed me last night and sounds really busy, so I don't know if she will be going or not, but I have e-mailed straight back to ask her and to let her know about you and your daughter.  If/when I hear from her i will let you know.

In the meantime, you may want to read a report written by the novelist Lauren Mechling of a BP conference she went to a few years ago - I know you are going to the tea party, but I thought you might want to have a look at it anyway.  It's at:

www.cbc.ca/arts/books/pym.html

I hope that works.  I found it when I googled "Tea with Miss Pym" in an effort to track down a copy of the TV interview I mentioned - failed in that, but found this instead.

Best wishes

Rosemary

ursamajor

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #97 on: November 01, 2010, 09:02:44 AM »
I have just finished the first few chapters of Excellent Women.  I am struck by how different this is from Left Hand and how NORMAL  the characters seem even though the language is British and the society as it was fifty years ago.  It is like coming out of a thick fog into the sunlight.  I am going to enjoy these books.

JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #98 on: November 01, 2010, 09:46:39 AM »
Ursa, the world of Barbara Pym is quite a contrast to the intensity of Ursula Le Guin's - as you say, from the fog into the sunlight.  Have a nice hot cup of tea and share your thoughts with us this morning -What do you think of Mildred?   Is she someone you would consider for a friend?  Does she seem to want or to need friends?    Does she "regard her life wih equanimity"  as Bellemere sees her?  Does she see herself as one of the "excellent women" of the parish? Do you think she is content with her life from what you've read in these early chapters?

ursamajor

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #99 on: November 01, 2010, 10:04:54 AM »
I like Mildred - she reminds me very much of a friend from high school, now, alas, departed.  She was the one I asked my husband to look up if anything happened to me.  I think she is pleased with her life and her place in the community - as one of the excellent women.  However, I believe she is open to new experiences although not actively seeking them.


pedln

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #100 on: November 01, 2010, 11:00:50 AM »
So much excitement here.  Bellemere, that's great that you're now a member of the BP Society AND are going to attend the tea.  Wonderful.  And Rosemary is going to come and join you next year.

Anna, I read about all your activities on Saturday and I'm already tired, just thinking about it. Your energy level is fantastic.

This book does seem to reflect on Barbara Pym's life, especially her early years -- working for the Censorship bureau, joining the Wrens, being stationed in Italy, and a strong church background when growing up. 

Does Mildred regard her life with equanimity, as Bellemere has stated?  Yes, she has accepted it as her lot in life.  At first reading, I thought she was lacking in self-esteem, that she considered herself unworthy or not-meant-to-have the things other women had.  Now I'm not so sure because I can't find the specific instances that led me to feel that way.

fairanna

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #101 on: November 01, 2010, 02:49:46 PM »
November 1 What  a great day  sunny and breezy and chilly  only in the 50's I cant work out in that kind of weather and am ready to say how I am enjoying the book...a LOT I have to check how much i have read because I just kept reading ..but I like the characters  They seem normal to me ...I think they sound like people who enjoy what they have ..they came through the war and most know many who didnt ...They dont seem to be unhappy but the kind of joy and sadness mixed when you have survived a terrible time..I feel they secretely subscribe to my motto "I AM GOING TO LIVE until I  die! I have odered several other books because I feel these will be perfect cold evening joys...I AM SO GLAD TO BE READING A BOOK UNDERSTAND ! not fussing at those you enjoy different things...just happy to be reading about people I would like to know like Miss Read   sending good thoughts to all and hope you are having a great day  OH  by the way the dishes are washimg I am ready to carry trash out for pic up and when the floor is clean I am going to get some buttermilk and MAKE THAT CAKE  will BIG enough for all  even if it is only in your imagination ...HAPPY DAYS ALL   anna

JoanK

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #102 on: November 01, 2010, 03:39:06 PM »
Well, I'm late as usual. I don't even have the book, but if I can get it in the next few days, I'd love to join the discussion.

I've alweays wondered what "fairy cakes" were -- there's a mystery story writer who always mentions them (Martha Grimes).

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #103 on: November 01, 2010, 06:05:59 PM »
Anna, I am so glad you are enjoying your day and the book.  I first read Excellent Women many years ago - I remember borrowing it from the Cambridge public library one Saturday afternoon - I took it home, started to read it and eventually lay down on the bed and read it right through, it was just too good to stop.  Since then I have read it many times, and I never cease to enjoy it.  And I agree, it's so good to be reading something one can understand!

Your life sounds so full and you sound so interesting.  I too had a good day today in that I met up with the mother of one of my son's best friends and we had coffee (and scones, whch were delicious) at the cafe run by our local Salvation Army - it has recently been completely refurbished and is a lovely place, always very busy.  We had a great morning chatting about all sorts of thngs.  This afternoon I was working, but it was so dark and miserable outside, and only the 2 of us there, so I have to admit we sat and watched QVC of all things (having a good laugh at the "ideas for Christmas gifts" - it is amazing how those presenters can talk anything up, they really are good at what they do), whilst having yet another good old chat.  not a very productive day, but sometimes it's what you need.

I did come home and make a lemon tart for when my mother comes later this week, so have recovered a small ounce of virtue.

It's pouring with rain now, very dark and miserable, so I am looking forward to getting into bed with my book and my hot water bottle  :)

Best wishes,

Rosemary

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #104 on: November 01, 2010, 06:11:42 PM »
JoanK - fairy cakes are nothing more than sponge mix cooked in bun tins or more usually paper cases.  Some books call them Queen Cakes.  Butterfly cakes are fairy cakes with the top sliced off, a little hollow made in the middle which is then filled with buttercream or jam, and the sliced off top then cut into two and re-inserted like butterfly's wings.

All this reminds me so much of Miss Lord, another brilliant Pym creation, who appears, I think, in No Fond Return of Love.  Every day when she comes to Dulcie's house to clean, she describes in great detail what she has had, or is intending to have, for lunch.  Things like "egg on Welsh" and "Russian cream" - some kind of concoction involving different coloured jelly.  I think she would have liked butterfly cakes - she is very keen on "dainty things".

R

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #105 on: November 01, 2010, 06:38:19 PM »
Just in Time...my used pocket book version of Excellent Women purchased for sixty three cents arrived by post about an hour ago and immediately I started to read - amazing - it is about nothing and yet, each chapter makes you want to know more - I finally arrived at a chapter that felt like a period after the end of a very long sentence - the end of chapter four - I am astonished that there were four chapters that essentially profiled 'Mizz' Lathbury...

I wonder if her thinking and ways come to us through osmosis when we live alone for many years - I could relate and her values would bring a smile of knowing to my face while I read. I already have decided I too dislike the downstairs excellent woman Helena Napier - she is really a snob using reverse snobbery to carve out her place - she reminds me of a High School Cheerleader trying to promote how they are special.

OK, two questions for the English among us... what is a Wren officer and second, in the first few pages clothes are described that includes someone wearing a Jersey - I have a feeling a Jersey means an article of clothing that is not a typical word we use in the states to describe whatever it is this article of clothing.

As to Miss Lathbury's opinion of her spinsterhood - in some ways I think she finds it perplexing that society has earmarked slots of behavior for her status - I think she realizes without putting it in so many words that she is on the bottom rung of the power ladder and yet, I get the impression she does not see herself as bottom rung. I do not see her essentially as a women 'needy' for marriage however, I do see her as romantic and could only imagine a kind love that tumbled at her with all the romance of a Bronte novel.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

pedln

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #106 on: November 01, 2010, 06:52:40 PM »
I love hearing about all these yummy cakes.  Fairy cakes sound delightful and I can't wait to taste Anna's black walnut cake.

One of the questions in the heading talks about Mildred's reduced circumstances. What I find surprising is that even so, she works only part time -- mornings only?  And Rosemary's mention of Miss Lord reminds me that Mrs. Morris comes to Mildred twice a week, even though her flat is not very big.  And I'm not quite sure I understand what a "distressed Gentlewoman" is, or just what Mildred's workplace does.  Like a welfare office for the middle class?

And will someone please explain what Julian is doing when he is "distempering a room?"  I gather he is painting it, but is there something more?


rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #107 on: November 01, 2010, 06:55:00 PM »
BarbStAubrey -

The Wrens were the women's part of the royal navy (in fact maybe they still are, I don't know).  In the war they would have gone abroad with the men, but would not have had front line jobs.  I get the impression that there was a definite pecking order between the services, and that is was quite posh to be a Wren (as opposed, for example, to being in the Land Army).

A jersey is a jumper or sweater - as in "put on your jersey" - I don't think many people would use that word now.  I wonder if it came from the place name - maybe a certain kind of jumper was knitted in the Channel Islands?  There is of course the Arran sweater from the island of that name - a huge white thing that makes me feel too hot and itchy just thinking about it.

When I first read EW I was a single woman living alone, and I actually knew a man so like Rocky Napier that it was uncanny.  What's more, he had a girlfriend who was really quite like Helena.  I saw myself very much in the Mildred position, as they would both come and offload on me - they were forever having break-ups - then of course they would forgive each other and I would be left alone with my solitary chop for tea, etc.  The more I re-read EW, the less patience I have with Rocky - I don't mind Helena as much, although they both use Mildred mercilessly.  They are both superficial, self-centered people who get away with it because they are attractive and reasonably wealthy.  Everard is much better, although I won't say too much about him as he comes into his own more towards the end of the book.

Is it deliberate that once you have posted so many words the screen keeps rolling up and down and you can't see what you've written?  Is it to stop us being too verbose?

Rosemary

JudeS

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2010, 07:21:14 PM »
The Library notified me today that my book has arrived from another ,far away branch. However they are closed till tomorrow PM when I will get my book and start reading.

PatH

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2010, 07:31:10 PM »
amazing - it is about nothing and yet, each chapter makes you want to know more -
That's just how I felt too, Barb.  She's like Jane Austen there--You read on eagerly, even when nothing much is happening.

I'm really enjoying all the quiet chuckles I'm getting out of the descriptions of minute aspects of living.  The bland monochromatic dinner at the vicarage: "...a pale macaroni and cheese and a dish of boiled potatoes,...a blancmange  or "shape" also of indeterminate colour....Not enough salt...and not really enough cheese."

"Just the kind of underclothes a person like me might wear, I thought dejectedly"

The fact that when Mrs. Napier finally contributes her share of toilet paper it is "an inferior brand".

You can say so much with so little.

Gumtree

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #110 on: November 02, 2010, 01:14:11 AM »
I haven't got EW yet  though I have finally tracked down a copy and hope to pick it up tomorrow ... I can hardly wait after reading the posts here.

I see Rosemary has filled everyone in about 'fairy cakes' - my mother often made them and seemed to have an inexhaustible variety of ways of decorating the top of the little cakes. Most of all I loved to watch as she turned them into 'butterfly' cakes. Good memories...

The term 'Jersey' is still used in Australia though less so than it used to be. Nowadays the term is usually 'jumper' or 'pullover'  The jersey originated in the Channel Islands as did the 'guernsey' or 'gansey' and they were originally fishermen's sweaters knitted by their womenfolk -A tradition of knitting grew up all around the coast of England and each community and sometimes even a family would have their own patterns worked into the knitting.    At one time a fisherman could be identified, as least as far as the locality he came from, by the pattern of the guernsey or jersey he was wearing. This often became important when men lost at sea whilst fishing might be washed ashore far from their own village - the pattern would tell where his family might be found. In Guernsey the fishermen's sweaters were made as early as Elizabethan times and there was quite an extensive trade in them especially to Newfoundland.

Rosemary mentioned the 'Aran' sweaters which are quite another thing -from the Aran Islands (in Ireland) and I must say they are not scratchy but beautifully soft and warm with complex patterns traditionally knitted in a natural creamy colour. The use of  complex lace and cable patterns combined with simpler patterns creates a texture and dimension to the knitted fabric.  A well knitted aran can be seen as an artwork and are often quite quite beautiful - I'm not sure that the ones I've knitted over the years were artworks but they have been  very popular and well loved by my menfolk who enjoy Sunday sailing.

You really shouldn't get me started on traditional knitting.

Incidentally our sporting teams still use the term 'guernsey' - those chosen to play a match are said to have 'got a guernsey' - and on occasion the expression spills over into almost all walks of life

Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #111 on: November 02, 2010, 06:26:20 AM »

There you are, Gum!  So glad to hear that you've tracked down a copy of the book - happier still that you have joined us before you have it actually in hand.  You always add another dimension to our discussions - being from the antipodes and all. ;)
Seriously, you do! 
Quote
You really shouldn't get me started on traditional knitting
I'm wondering how many of us gathered here are knitters?  Is Mildred Lathbury a knitter?  I do believe she is, but can't be certain. 

Rosemary - you do too- add another dimension to our conversation!  As I recall, you live in Scotland now - but came from England - did you say where?  Did you grow up there?  In the 50's?  You must have grown up with very visible memories of WWII !  That is something that most have us have never experienced.  Mildred attending a service in a church half in bombing rubble was a reminder to me of what everyday life must have been life in those post war years. 

You asked about the jumping words or rolling screen - this sounds as if it may be a compatability issue.  (There is NOTHING to stop us from being verbose here!  :D
Try this -
PROBLEM WITH REPLY BOX JUMPING
Apparently jumping around is a known IE8 issue with the post-box after you paste.
The remedy is to "Switch your browser to run in "Compatability mode."  When a site is open in the IE8 browser there is a button to the right of the address bar that looks like a broken page. Do you see it?   Click on that. It will turn blue-ish.  Warning - don't do this in the middle of a reply post or you will lose your work as it changes mode.

Jude - JoanK  that's such good news that you have located one - or both of the Pym too!.  We look forward to your insights...it won't take long to catch us - just don't rush it.

And Welcome to you, Barbara!  I was thinking the other day how Pym's eye for detail resembles Poetry..."saying so much with so little," as PatH puts it -  And we have BOTH you and Fair Anna with us in this discussion which underlines that thought.... Again, Welcome!

So many good observations posted here yesterday-each worthy of more conversation.  We'll be on the road this morning - am writing this from the motel this morning while my driver gets his much needed rest.  I can't wait to get into it with you later today...

JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #112 on: November 02, 2010, 06:57:34 AM »
Quote
"You can say so much with so little."
PatH - thank you for pointing out examples of this - I hope you will add to this list!  Pat mentions  blancmange   the "shape" of  indeterminate colour.  How do you imagine "blancmange"?    I think of baby food - was it called "junkit"?  Kind of a bland pudding  - served as a dessert - to little ones.  Can someone find a recipe?  I definitely plan to make that- tomorrow.
Mention of these rather bland foods - mac and cheese, blancmange - these are comfort foods, aren't they?  More for older folks, or babies -or those in need of comfort...

Do you keep forgetting Mildred's age?  She's only 30 years old!  Does she have friends her own age?  Are the "excellent women"  of the parish other  unmarried women who are Mildred's age? She refers to herself as a "spinster"  on a number of occasions - who is counting?  - can you cite any of them? What is the tone of these comments  I feel she needs a friend - and Mrs. Napier doesn't seem to fit the bill...

You all seem to agree that Mildred is content or at least satisfied with her life as it is now... "She has accepted that this is what her life will be."  (Is this before or after she meets Mr. Napier?)

Her part-time job interests me - what is it that she does for these  "distressed Gentlewoman"?  Mildred is not one of them, I take it?

Here's a question, a bit personal - can you relate at all to Mildred?  Do you understand her?

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2010, 10:10:46 AM »
Blancmange was a regular pudding in my youth, but it was made out of a packet mix.  I truly loathed it, but along with those other horrors of childhood meals, mashed potato and custard, I expect it is all in the making.  I have found 2 recipes for it in Mrs Beeton;

Arrowroot blancmange, which requires milk, arrowroot, sugar and lemon rind or vanilla, and

Blancmange (cheap), which calls for sugar, milk, lemon rind, bay leaves and "Swinborne's isinglass or gelatine".

If anyone wants full details, just let me know!

I think this kind of bland and boring food was endemic in the UK in the post war period.  Eventually Elizabeth David came along and introduced food from places like Italy, but although my mother-in-law (relatively wealthy, very well educated) would have had her books, my own mother would have regarded them with great suspicion - we were, for example, never allowed to have garlic, peppers, most spices (apart from ginger), pasta other than macaroni, or cheese that smelled of anything at all, in the house.  When I first went to France in the late 1970s, I had never had such amazing food as that cooked by my penfriend's mother.  I brought back goat's cheese, nectarines, etc - and they were all swiftly consigned to the bin, the cheese taking the first hit as it "makes the fridge stink".

Will write more later - off to vet's again now!

R

bellemere

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2010, 11:08:48 AM »
My friend makes the Puerto Rican equivalent of blancmange and calls it "tembleque" Tem-BLAY-kay.  That means trembling or shaking. For some reason the Puerto rican diet is almost as bland as the English.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2010, 12:29:23 PM »
A few years back we slogged through The Canterbury Tales - vaguely I remember a cook that was described as doing something with Chicken and Blanc Mange - and so I pulled down the book and sure enough - then I found it on-line making it an easy copy and paste...

Quote
THE COOK
A cook they had with them, just for the nonce,
To boil the chickens with the marrow-bones,
And flavour tartly and with galingale.
Well could he tell a draught of London ale.
And he could roast and seethe and broil and fry,
And make a good thick soup, and bake a pie.
But very ill it was, it seemed to me,
That on his shin a deadly sore had he;
For sweet blanc-mange, he made it with the best

Looks like blanc-mange has been around historically for a long time if was listed as a skill by Chaucer.

I am remembering Bavarian Cream which was a special treat that my mother prepared only a few times however,  the closest thing to Blancmange I can remember is packaged vanilla puddings where we just added milk and stirred over the stove - thicker than a custard, neither of which has any almond flavoring which is listed as in ingredient in some form or other in the recipes in my collection of cookbooks.  All these milk products and recipes are out of my kitchen - some years ago found that my tummy rebelled against any lactose product.

In the story I am thinking this is another way that Barbara Pym is establishing a class of folks on the edges of the  upper class. Remembering from Jane Austin's stories the clergy were often younger sons who did not inherit the family estate but were given a 'living' and so they would  know about the table at an upper class  home but would not have the means to keep up the lifestyle and table of the upper class.

Reading about Blancmange and its history it appears to have been at first popular in England with the upper class and so I am thinking since this is a forsaken looking blancmange it is part of the visual that strengthens the picture of her genteel companions who know about upper class style living but are not able financially to bring it off with the panache of the upper class. I am also thinking this is helping us see  'class' as in values and morals - Rocky and Helena have money but Helena especially shows little 'class' and here Miss Lathbury even can recognize a tawdry example of blancmange.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ursamajor

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2010, 02:59:36 PM »
While I was looking for the two Pym books we are reading I ran across a little book by Hilary Pym and Honor Wyatt (Barbara's sister and good friend) called the Barbara Pym Cookbook.  It is fascinating to look at; it gives recipes for foods mentioned in her novels and has delightful comments and quotes..  It has recipes for fairy cakes, for Toad in the Hole, and for Shepherd's Pie.  (Shep Pie is referred to disparagingly in the quoted book, but "it can be very good.") The measurements are rather quaint: A wine glass full, a dessert spoonful.

Fairy cakes

8 tablespoons butter
2/3 Cup castor or superfine sugar
2 eggs
1 cup flour
1/2 teaspoon baking powder
 milk, if necessary
Lemon juice, almond flavoring, vanilla essense, or dried fruit to taste

Preheat oven to 425 F.  Cream butter and sugar, then beat in the eggs, 1 at a time.  Sift together the flour and baking powder and add to the butter, adding milk if necessary to make a soft dough.  Add the flavoring of your choice and drop by the teaspoonful into small greased muffin tins or molds and bake 20 minutes.

pedln

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2010, 03:36:10 PM »
Okay, who's going to make the Fairy Cakes?  Thanks ursamajor.

Bellemere’s reference to the Puerto Rican blancmange brought back memories – it was jiggly, yet firm, a stand-alone “white food.”

After googling, it seems that all blancmanges have geletin, some kind of milk, usually some almond flavoring, and very definitely a history. The article below offers a recipe and some tasting experiences.

Tasting Blancmange

Quote
Bloop! went the blancmanges as they flopped onto plates. As we tasted them, going from the all-milk version to the half-gelatin one, you could see the evolution toward today’s form of milk pudding, panna cotta, which is made primarily with cream but is looser and lighter, more custard than sculpture. For us, the full-gelatin milk blancmange was a bit like eating a rubber ball — it didn’t so much melt in your mouth as ricochet around it.


Quote
For some reason the Puerto rican diet is almost as bland as the English.

Not quite   :D


JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #118 on: November 03, 2010, 08:21:06 AM »
Good morning! An interesting subject, this "sweet blanc-mange!  (loved "THE COOK" - just knew you would bring us the poetry, Barb! So the dish has been around since medieval times -  see Chaucer's Prologue to Canterbury Tales.

"The "whitedish" (from the original Old French term blanc mangier) was an upper-class dish common to most of Europe during the Middle Ages."

Rosemary describes blancmange as "a regular pudding in my youth, but it was made out of a packet mix. This  kind of bland and boring food was endemic in the UK in the post war period."

-   This sounds very much like the "Junket" we had as children - during those post-war years.  Does this package look familiar to you?

"For the majority of the 20th Century, in the eastern United States junket was often a preferred food for ill children, mostly due to its sweetness and ease of digestion.
 By the mid-20th century it was little eaten except by convalescing children and in south-western England.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junket_(dessert)

 
Blancmange - enjoy! It looks like Flan to me...

Ursa -  I'm really interested in the Cookbook - the one co-authored by Hilary Pym.  A question - Are fairy cakes just another name for cupcakes? (The name "fairy cakes"  is so much more interesting, don't you think?)   Do you know whether Hilary Pym ever married?  Or did she and Barbara always live together after Barbara's stint in the WRENS?

So where were we in Excellent Women?  Mildred Lathbury- not a child, but a young woman, 31 years old -  stilll on this bland diet which she has probably been eating since a child?
I think it's time for her to experience life, don't you?  Enter...Rocky!

  Let's talk about Mildred and men today - she's 31 years old.  Has she had suitors in previous years?   I don't remember reading about them.  Do you think that she showed interest in Julian - before the Napiers entered the picture?   What did you think of Julian? Let's talk about Mildred and men today - Mildred seems to have romantic notions about Rocky even before he enters the picture...

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #119 on: November 03, 2010, 10:00:50 AM »
Joan - fairy cakes are not the same as cup cakes.  We seem to be inundated with cup cake shops at the moment, and the cakes seem to me be to larger, and always to have a thick layer or swirl of butter cream icing (which I find too sweet) on the top.  Fairy cakes would be smaller, lighter, and not always iced.  If they were iced it would be with a thin glace icing (ie made from icing sugar and water or possibly fruit juice), not buttercream.

I do have the cookbook; it is full of quotations from the novels and then the recipes for the dishes themselves, although there is also a fair sprinkling of things Barbara or one of her characters might have eaten - in the BP group we can get quite obsessed with imagining what Mildred, Wilmet or Dulcie might have done or said, and we often quote little Pym moments that we have enjoyed during our days (oh yes, we are quite eccentric  ;) )

I don't think Mildred has had many boyfriends - there is the long abandoned idea of a relationship with Dora's brother (he is a great cameo part, don't you think?), and references, I think, to a few curates, but nothing much really.  Mildred is now 31, so presumably the war was ongoing when she was in her 20s - I was about to say that meant there weren't many men around, but my mother was 18 when the war ended in 1945, and she and her sisters seem to have had a huge choice of men in London, - soldiers on leave, Americans here with their forces, etc.  I don't think Mildred is at all interested in Julian - she is far too smart for him, and although she is quite nice about him I think she sees him as fundamentally wet -- which indeed he soon proves to be.  She feels resigned to being on her own, but in many ways she likes it.

One of the great things about BP is that she often re-introduces her characters as small parts in her other novels.  Thus we do eventually find out what happened to Mildred - I will say no more!

Rosemary