Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online

[marcie]

TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online

Excellent Women

Quartet in Autumn

 

British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with  humor, a very dry humor.  Both Pym and Austen were  concerned with the marriage of their heroines,  before they become "spinsters." (Note that  Austen and Pym never married.)   It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage.  In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel.  Will this be the case with Pym?

The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952,  considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry  without the romance or risk remaining a spinster.   The woman is 31 years old!  
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers,  as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources.   Pym  is fascinated  by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
 

Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15     Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20   Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter

Some Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration
Nov. 11-15  Chapters 1 - 11  

1. Here we have four very different characters, each important to the development of the story.  Does any one of the four stand out more than the others?  Which one made the most impression on you?
2. How does this office foursome  view one another?  
3. This book is set in the 1970's and written almost 20 years after Excellent Women.  Does anything initially make you aware of that?
4. Do you find this a different type of book compared to Excellent Women?  Do the two have similar qualities?
How would you compare Midred Lathbury with Letty Crowe?
5.  Have you noted any of the references to "autumn" in these chapters?  What is the feeling  these references convey?

Additional Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration - The Retirement
Nov. 16-20  Chapters 12 - Final Chapter  

1.  Do you agree most retirement parties are  depressing? "Why does one feel sorry for men who retire, not women," Pym asks.  What will they DO after retirement?  Have  Letty or Marcia given any thought to this question?  Are they looking forward to it?

2. Who is the protagonist here?  Is there one?

3. Marcia has certainly declined since retirement.  But what about the others?  Do you notice any changes in them, for better or for worse?

4. Norman is frequently referred to as an "odd little man" by those he meets for the first time.  Why do you suppose that iis?  Why do you think he went to Marcia's house, but did not make himself known?
 
5. Do you think  the two men exhibit more concern for Marcia and Letty than the women do for them?   Why would Marcia leave her house to Norman?  Will he keep it?

6. Did you ever anticipate Marcia's demise?  What effect did her cremation service  have on the other three?  On you?

7. What effect did Marjorie's character have on the story?

8. If you had to name the most uplifting scene in the book, what would it be?  The most humorous?

~~~

Related Links:
Barbara Pym Biography; Barbara Pym Society; "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings

***Readers' Guide questions for Excellent Women

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln (for Quartet in Autumn )

[marcie]

I think that it might be difficult to collect humorous bits from the book. I'm trying to look for them but they are funny (to me) within the context of the surrounding text in the book--the contexts in which they are set. I think what I find amusing is the way that Pym leads up to a description in a matter of fact way but using just the right adjectives and adverbs to make me smile or laugh. It's the way she also juxtaposes what one character does or says with how another character is reacting to it in his or her mind.

Anyway, I will try to find spots in the book that I find humorous to see if you can see any humor there too, even though I find them funny within the pace of the book--maybe not necessarily on their own. I'll bold some parts that I think make the descriptions funny.

One instance: Chapter Two (p. 23 in my copy) where Marcia follows Norman to the British Museum. "She found herself entering the British Museum, ascending wide stone steps and walking through echoing galleries filled with alarming images and objects in glass cases, until they came to rest in the Egyptian section by a display of mummified animals and small crocodiles. Here Norman had mingled with a crowd of school children and Marcia slipped away. If she had thought of making herself known to  him, the time and such questions as 'Do you come here often?' were obviously inappropriate. Norman had not revealed to any of them that he visited the British Museum, and even if he had, would never have admitted to the contemplation of mummified crocodiles. No doubt it was a secret thing."

Later in the book, we learn something interesting about Norman's visit that day.

On the next page, Ediwn is contemplating his "lunchtime church crawl." "Today he was attracted by the announcement of an austerity luncheon in aid of a well known charity, but rather surprisingly 'with wine'--that might be worth a visit."

[rosemarykaye]

pedln - yes, "senior citizen" is the official term here (unless it's been superceded by something more PC without my noticing), but most people - certainly those of my mother's generation - woulsd still say "pensioner" or "OAP".

Places like tourist attractions now just say "concessions" in their tarriff, which is IMO silly as you then have to ask what they are - pensioners?  the unemployed?  the disabled?  They are all so afraid of being criticised as ageist, disabledist, or whatever.  I am not yet a pensioner (nor, at the rate our economy is going, am I likely to be one till I am at least 95) but when I am I will be quite happy to be called one if it means I get a cheaper deal!

Rosemary

[ursamajor]

I guess it depends on your age.  I remember the chagrin of one of my colleagues, in his early fifties at the time, when he said he had gotten the wrong change and the clerk returned "Oh, I gave you the senior citizen's discount".

[rosemarykaye]

Oh  I can see that would be annoying!  But of course anyone over 30 rates as old to anyone under 25.  My children have in the past asked me if we had electricity when I was a child (in 1960s London).  Similarly, World War two seems like ancient history to me, but in fact it only ended 13 years before I was born, and for my parents it was still a recent memory.

Has anyone read any of the collections of Joyce Grenfell's letters?  During the war she entertained the troops all over the world, and wrote many letters home, especially to her best friend Virginia Graham.  The letters also refer to the time she spent in London, helping to put on concerts during the Blitz.  They are a very good read, and give you lots of background about the period.

Rosemary

[JoanP]

PatH - I agree, the humor is there but not as "sparkling."   Excellent Women was so much more uplifting  with  hope for the future. Given the author's declining health, I think it is amazing that she handled Quartet as well as she did.  Pedln asks an interesting question.  What do you think was the most uplifting scene in the book.

Marcie, thanks for describing the two scenes  in which you found humor - both involved the men.  I smiled again at the reference to Edwin's "lunchtime church crawl" - (as opposed to a "pub crawl."   )  
It's funny, because one of the scenes that I noted also involved a man - David Lydell and his self centered world as he announces to the ladies that he is suffering from "diorrhea." - and Letty wondering how that word is spelled rather than dwell on how "ordinary" this future vicar of hers actually was.  Really, I don't see Letty any happier retiring in the country, do you?

JoanK - let's talk about Marcia's eating - or not eating.  It wasn't really up to the young, inexperienced social worker to interfere more - or was it?  The doctors who saw all told her to eat more.  Should they have seen that she was in real danger and done more?  It was rather painful to read, wasn't it?  Watching her decline, slip through the cracks of the system that was supposed to be making sure she was looked after.  If a person makes a decision not to get help when needed (or not to eat), can anyone or any system interfere?  My best friend in the world passed away last year from this very same thing.  Because she hadn't been eating, she was unable to recover from a surgery and passed away in the hospital.  We  were all asking the same questions that we are now asking about Marcia.  

Rosemary, I looked up Joyce Grenfell's letters to Virginia Graham.  They sound fascinating.  That was real friendship, wasn't it!  Letters were such an important source of history, weren't they?  We've lost a lot of history in losing the habit of letter writing.  I get so excited when the mailman brings first class mail - a rarity, a letter.  I have only two of my friend's letters.

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this.  Don't be afraid about being a spoiler - we're ready to discuss the second half of the book, beginning with the retirement party...
  

[JoanP]

Just added to the heading in case you hadn't noticed...

Additional Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration - The Retirement
Nov. 16-20  Chapters 12 - Final Chapter  

1.  Do you agree most retirement parties are  depressing? "Why does one feel sorry for men who retire, not women," Pym asks.  What will they DO after retirement?  Have  Letty or Marcia given any thought to this question?  Are they looking forward to it?

2. Who is the protagonist here?  Is there one?

3. Marcia has certainly declined since retirement.  But what about the others?  Do you notice any changes in them, for better or for worse?

4. Norman is frequently referred to as an "odd little man" by those he meets for the first time.  Why do you suppose that iis?  Why do you think he went to Marcia's house, but did not make himself known?
 
5. Do you think  the two men exhibit more concern for Marcia and Letty than the women do for them?   Why would Marcia leave her house to Norman?  Will he keep it?

6. Did you ever anticipate Marcia's demise?  What effect did her cremation service  have on the other three?  On you?

7. What effect did Marjorie's character have on the story?

8. If you had to name the most uplifting scene in the book, what would it be?  The most humorous?

[pedln]

Do you agree most retirement parties are  depressing?

No.  But the ones I’ve been to, including my own, were lovely, and every one retiring was doing it by choice and was very happy about it.

But the retirement lunch and the lunch planned by Edwin and Norman reminded me so much of our Latin translation for this week – a letter by Pliny, “Graded Friendship is Degraded Friendship,”  in which he described a host who served three different qualities of wine, with the best going to himself and a few close associates and the lesser quality to merchants and freedmen.

These affairs point out Pym’s recognition of the dimished status of women like Letty and Marcia.  They were unskilled (now we find out) and didn’t deserve an evening party.  At lunch you could serve the less expensive drink and need only serve sandwiches.  Older women didn’t need that much to eat anyway.  And they needn’t be embarrassed about their ages because nobody was interested – they’d been “old” for so long.  Actually, the speech given at the luncheon was one example of the humor in the book – it was so full of nothing.

[marcie]

Yes, JoanP, the "diorrhea" incident was very funny, with Letty focusing on how to spell the word. And Pedln, the retirement speech was humorous too. How apt that you've just translated a letter by Pliny (wow, that's quite impressive) about “Graded Friendship is Degraded Friendship.” It certainly does apply to many of the observations that Pym makes in the book about how society sees various individuals and groups.

Another situation in the book that has both humor and pathos is the fact that no one really knows what the group of four do or what their "department" is about.

[PatH]

Another situation in the book that has both humor and pathos is the fact that no one really knows what the group of four do or what their "department" is about.

Yes, and that makes the retirement speech scathing.  He is really saying "I haven't any idea what these two women did, but it isn't worth bothering to keep on doing."

I agree with you, Marcie, that much of the humor is so quiet, just an apt phrase, that it's hard to pull it out of context.

[bellemere]

Throughout my reading, Letty stands out, even tho she is the least "forceful" character of the four.  She seems the most like Mildred, and by extension, like Barbara Pym.  She is , however more self-effacing than Mildred, and also seems a little more strapped for cash. The way her friend Marjorie torpedoes her retirement plan was so nasty.  That vicar was such a creep, you could see the breakup coming, couldn't you?  Oops, have I telegraphed ahead of the prescribed order?  Anyway, I found myself in Letty's corner all the time.

[rosemarykaye]

I do like QIA, but I also find it quite depressing, and at least one person in the Pym group skips the month when we read it.

There are some true Pym humorous touches - the ritual handing out of the jelly baby after lunch, the competitive casserole cooking of Marjorie and Beth Doughty, Norman and Ken's conversations at the hospital and at Christmas lunch (""I only hope you're not going to suffer for it" Norman could hardly resist casting this small gloom on the festivities"), but on the whole the book is terribly sad.

I don't think Barbara Pym had nearly such a grim life as Norman, Letty, Marcia and Edwin - she retired to Finstock in Oxfordshire and lived happily with her sister until her premature death - but she had no doubt witnessed the sad lives of people who had no-one.  And I do think the issue of property is a very real one - Norman lives in a tiny bedsitter until he inherits Marcia's house, but by then it is too late, he doesn't know what to do with it; Letty is at the mercy of her various landladies.  I think that out of all the characters, Edwin is the happiest with his lot - he really enjoys all the church festivals and having his drinks with Father G, just as some men like making model trains or collecting stamps - he doesn't want anything else, and he doesn't seem to have any money worries.  Letty is to me the saddest of all, in that unlike Marcia she is very aware of her lot, and keeps trying to put a brave face on things.

Mildred of course also lives in a rented flat, but somehow there is much more optimism in Excellent Women - although Mildred may appear to have written herself off, i don't think she has really, and there really are "infinite possibilities" for her, whereas I can't see Letty's life getting much better.  The one positive point, I feel, is that Mrs Pope does need Letty as much as Letty needs her room, and I wonder if they will eventually become friends - maybe Mrs Pope will even leave her house to Letty?

Rosemary

[ursamajor]

But how long can Mrs. Pope be expected to last?  I also had the feeling that the arrangement might blow up in Letty's face at any time,  But I did admire Letty's spunk at not immediately jumping at the chance to pick up the retirement plans with Marjorie immediately.

[JudeS]

Re Dying by not eating.
This is a fairly common way for seniors who do not wish to take an active role in their suicide manage to kill themselves.
It is the passive way of suicide rather than the active way that many younger people useto  complete the act.i.e.shooting, hanging, jumping in front of a train (in a nearby community close to mine there were five deaths completed by teens in the past year by jumping in front of a train).
The choice of suiciide by not eating is a way for some religous people to fool themselves into thinking that this is not suicide and they will not go to hell or be buried in a space apart from the family cemetery plot.
When an elderly person chooses this method there is no way of stopping them  other than hospitalization and a feeding tube.  If this is done then they will usually pull out the tube.
This is a very sad entry to this discussion but Marcia is a very sad person who may represent a part of the authors thoughts at this time in her life.  From what I've read she did suffer from depression and may have thought of this method.  She did not choose this method but her least likeable character did.  You can't write about this method unless you have given it much thought.

[JoanK]

MARCIE: you just posted what I was going to post about Marcia's hoarding. I remember my mother during the war was afraid we would run out of coffee. She bought as much as rationing allowed (which was more than the family drank) and they just accumulated. She saved the empty cans, too, and we had one long shelf iin the basement packed with cans of coffee, full and empty.

She clearly had some of the hoarder in her, but it never got to the point where it negatively impacted her life or space. When we cleaned out her house, 40 years later, we found several such "collections" in the basement (hanger, frozen food containers etc) , but only enough clutter upstairs to make the house rather messy. But Pat and I often kid each other about the Collyer brothers.

In edit: I missed a whole page of comments when I posted that. Yes, the question of how much to interfere is a really hard one. I had that problem with a friend who was clearly ignoring a life threatening health problem. My whining about "you really should see a doctor" did nothing. Another friend figured out how to get her forcibly taken to the hospital against her will, thus saving her life. I don't think I could ever have done that -- if I was her only friend, she would be dead now, ionstead of alive and happy.

[pedln]

Jude, do you think that Marcia was making a conscious effort to kill herself.  Or did she just not have the energy to make the effort to eat, let alone cook or prepare a meal. I think that her real goal was to get back into the hospital again, so she would be near her “Mr. Strong.”

[pedln]

“Graded Friendship is Degraded Friendship.” It certainly does apply to many of the observations that Pym makes in the book about how society sees various individuals and groups.

Marcie, I’m glad you brought that up because not only in the books, but Rosemary has alluded classes also.  Rosemary, please don’t think we’re picking on you,  but is class still important in the UK, and how do they break down?

Another situation in the book that has both humor and pathos is the fact that no one really knows what the group of four do or what their "department" is about.

My first reaction to that was that it was really bizarre, but yes, there is humor there, especially when one considers that a lot of retirement & honoring speeches are similarily full of hogwash. Nobody listens and nobody says, “what a crock.”  Though “Norman commented that from what was said he supposed they would spend their retirement setting the motor industry to rights.”  I thought he meant that what was said was meaningless, but after hearing today about the new film Made in Dagenham, I wonder if he (and Pym) were making a comment about  the Irish women machinists who struck against the  Ford Motor company in 1968 and brought about the equal pay act in 1970.

[PatH]

....do you think that Marcia was making a conscious effort to kill herself.  Or did she just not have the energy to make the effort to eat, let alone cook or prepare a meal.

I've been trying to sort out Marcia's last days.  I don't think she was consciously trying to kill herself (though unconsciously, who knows).  A doctor in the hospital told Janice that Marcia was "in a terminal situation even before her collapse".  She was probably getting weaker and weaker, and it just seemed harder and harder even to make the minimal sort of effort at eating she normally did.  When the tab broke off the tin of lunch meat, she didn't have the strength to do anything about it.  I think her collapse was from the disease, though much worsened by hunger.

[Gumtree]

Yes, I agree that Marcia's collapse was primarily from her illness though her condition was worsened by lack of food. I think initially she just didn't have the interest in feeding herself and then she became too weak to do anything about it. I don't think she was trying to hasten her end but she appears to have lost the will to survive.

I think her hoarding was possibly a hangover from war time restrictions when everyone was encouraged to 'make and mend' 'don't waste' etc. - we were encouraged to save everything that could conceivably be useful - to carefully roll up pieces of string, save used brown paper or good pieces of butcher's paper, paper bags, cardboard boxes, screw top jars and tins. When I cleared my MIL's house there were still hoards of these things in drawers and cupboards - especially string and brown paper.

As others have said Pym's humour is very understated in this book, it's there but muted. I read the book a few weeks ago straight through in one gulp but find it hard to reread more than a few pages at a time because it is so very sad.

Marcia is a tragic figure  and her end is inevitable. The others also have tragedy waiting for them - Life has simply passed by Norman - he will fritter away his legacy and keep on grumbling, in reality talking to himself - Edwin's real life ended when his wife died and he fills his time by attending church services - and poor Letty is still striving, still taking care of her appearance but even so her world is dwindling - Mrs Pope could prove a godsend or could turn on Letty or become ill and helpless and Letty could find herself in even worse circumstances. The tragedy and sadness lies in their empty lives - none seem to have enough inner resources to carry them through adversity. Sad, Sad, Sad.

[rosemarykaye]

pedln - class will never die in the UK, it just takes on different guises.  BP's earlier characters often talk about people not being "gentlewomen", not quite "one of us", etc.  Nowadays most people wouldn't say that, at least not in public, but it's still there.

The old aristocracy still have licence to behave in bizarre, eccentric and selfish ways because they have the right accents and the right background.  Much of this is perpetrated by schooling - the "public" (ie old established, and usually boarding,) schools, such as Eton, Harrow, Rugby, and in Scotland Merchiston, Glenalmond, Strathallan, Fettes, instil in their pupils a sense of confidence and self-importance that no-one else will ever have.  One of my friend's children has just left university having previously been at an Edinburgh public school, and he and his school friends have been welcomed with open arms into the Edinburgh banking and legal world, at a time when most other graduates can't get a job of any sort.  He was told that some of the Edinburgh firms will only recruit from the former pupils of certain Edinburgh schools (though of course they don't admit this in public).  This may be a particularly Edinburgh thing, but I am quite sure it goes on to some extent everywhere.

I was at university in Cambridge, having come from a very ordinary home and a state grammar school - it was only when I arrived there that it hit me in the face - the place was full of students from public schools, and the confidence that years of privilege and a public school education had given them was something that carried them through everything - they have an ability to bluff that the rest of us rarely have, and nothing much worries them because they know that everything will be alright for them in the world.  In this country, it's as much or more about class as it is about money - you can be a billionaire and still not be accepted into upper class circles.  I read an article the other day about Kate Middleton, Prince William's now fiance, and the writer said that her family will never really be accepted by the royal family because, although the Middletons are very far from poor, they are just not going to cut it with the aristocracy.  It remains to be seen if this is true, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.

In QIA, Norman is clearly "common", with his bedsit in Kilburn and his nippy little remarks.  Letty is much more middle class - BP would never in a million years have given her a brother-in-law who was a driving instructor, it's just not something that posh people do, and in choosing that job for Ken BP was giving us a clear pointer as to his station  in life.  Even his name points up his class - I think I remember Tom Sopko remarking ages ago that BP chose all of her names very carefully - so, in A Glass of Blessings for example, Piers and Rowena are very clearly of Wilmet's class (Wilmet is the main character), whereas Keith, Piers' friend, with his obsessions with washing powder and "nice things", very clearly isn't.  Language also gives the game away - and that is still the case in the UK today.  Keith using the word "nice" labels him as lower class than Piers, etc even if there were no other clues.  And today people who consider themselves a cut above would still say "lavatory" not "toilet", "supper" not "tea" (unless it was afternoon tea), and would expect their adult children to call them "Mummy", not "Mum".

Rosemary

[bellemere]

I agree that Marcia's goal was to get back in the attention of Mr. Strong, not to commit suicide.  Her illness made her lose interest in eating, and with no one to urge her on, the end was inevitable.  My own mother, near the end, said to me,"This dying business is for the birds." i couldn
't rind a response for that one.
At the very end, Letty is hatching a trip to the countryside , to see Marjorie, but with two gentlemen accompanying her.  Take THAT, Margorie.  Her thoughts are also about everone haveng the bility to make changes.  I guess that is the optimistic note to an otherwise downer of a story.

[PatH]

I, too see a bit of optimism at the end.  They all see the possibility of making some choices in their lives, and it seems to lift their spirits a bit.  Who knows if they will actually change anything, though.

[pedln]

rosemary, Wow!  Still going on, huh?  I wondered.  I read something the other day like "if you're born into working class in the UK, you'll always be working class, whereas in the US if you work hard you can rise above your background."

Bellemere --  I think Marjorie was the one who suggested they all come to the country.  We've all known someone like Marjorie -- no matter what her age she's going to get her MAN.

[JoanP]

2. Who is the protagonist here?  Is there one?

"Marcia is a tragic figure  and her end is inevitable."  

Gum,  she is - tragic.  Do you think that Marcia was actually trying to hasten the end of her life?  Pym seems to have poured her energy into her portrayal. Do you think she is the main character of the story - "the protagonist?"
I think of a protagonist as  someone who does something, an actor.  Had to look up a definition to see if Marcia fits the role -

"A protagonist (from the Greek πρωταγωνιστής protagonists, "one who plays the first part, chief actor"[1]) is the main character (the central or primary personal figure) of a literary, theatrical, cinematic, or musical narrative, around whom the events of the narrative's plot revolve and with whom the audience is intended to share the most empathy."  

What do you all think? Does a novel have to have a protagonist?  Do you think it is Marcia?  Does she fit the definition?

The four are going into retirement unprepared for the isolation they will experience without their daily office companions. They are without a community within a big city. You might say that Edwin does - as he crawls from one church community to another, but does he really belong to one of them?  Mrs. Pope said otherwise...he only comes around now and then - depending on the church calendar and the services offered.
  
I remember wondering if they really had to retire - if they couldn't stay together longer - but knew that would only put off the inevitable.  (Wouldn't having a computer and the internet - and SeniorLearn have made a difference?)

 But of the four - wouldn't you say the action centers around Marcia's dire situation? And what Marcia is doing to herself?  
 Pym is forcing us to ask - - how much do we  interfere with someone who needs help, but won't ask for it.   JoanK yes, the question of how much to interfere is a really hard one. Who was responsible for Marcia?  No one?  Someone?  When Dr. Strong insisted that Marcia undergo the mastectomy, regardless of her protests, she came to regard him  with a kind of love.     He assumed she needed help and and went ahead and gave  it to her.  She accepted all the care and attention from the hospital nurses and aides - accepted them as acts of love.  One of them called her "dear,"  she remembered. Is that the answer to the question, then?  Give help, even when not asked.

When an elderly person chooses this method there is no way of stopping them  other than hospitalization and a feeding tube. Jude

 Hmm. The hospital...

Gum - do you suppose that Marcia was trying to get sick again - even subconsciously, in order to  get back in the hospital under Dr. Strong's care? Remember when Norman - or was it Letty, were going through her things they found brand new, never worn,  frilly nightgowns - is she saving them for the hospital?  Bellemere agrees that this was Marcia's goal...

Interesting to know how Pym spend time on naming her characters...Dr. Strong was aptly named, I think.

[salan]

I don't think Marcia is the protaganist, JoanP., but she is certaihly the character who stands out the most.  I don't think she was deliberately trying to kill herself.  When a doctor in hospital told Janice that Marcia was in a terminal situation even before her collapse; I wondered if perhaps her cancer had spread.  If so, this could explain why she couldn't eat.  She simply wasn't hungry and couldn't be bothered.  I do think she was hoping to return to the hospital and was saving her new night clothes for this eventuality.  I think it says alot about her character that she cared about what she wore in the hospital, but not in her everyday life.  So sad....
Sally

[bellemere]

A lot of writing these days by sociologists and people in the "helping" professions has to do with isolation as old communities die out, and nothing replaces them.  Also, the extent to which relationships in old age increase well-being.  Remember "Boling alone" the book from a few years back" It strssed how much community ife has vanished: church ties, fraternal organizations, sports leagues, clubs, etc. But my sympathy goes a little to Janice; she tried to connect with Marcia, but was rebuffed several times.  Still, she kept on, without the feeling of accomplishing something .  My neighbor,k a brilliant bridge player in our younger days, fell to Alzheimer's.  When I would drop in, she didn't know me, but still wanted to hug me. She always asked first if it was okay. It was tough for all of us who knew her. to watch the decline.   

[pedln]

Might the Quartet be the protagonist?  They are intertwined and we would not know one of them without knowing the others.  Good point bellemere and JoanP about communities dying out and the Quartet losing its office community.

[BarbStAubrey]

Well the awful affects from the meds is down to a trickle but still the patch so with one eye I had to stick my nose in here - my conclusion is they are all looking for intimacy - if not a loving intimacy at least a cozy traditional intimacy that they had established while working together - even Letty and her desire for a man is, I think really a desire for intimacy that sometimes is part of a man/women relationship.

The four established over years of working together a  close acquaintance, association, or familiarity. If not an "intimate friendship" I think there was the hope that the next year their desire to feel the warmth of friendship with its cosy chats that included intimate knowledge of each other would grow.

The various churches were not providing the feeling to Norman that years of traditional behavior built into a familiar pattern with the same faces provided.

Marcia, as others have said, was too isolated and at the hospital she sacrificed what was her decision just for the warmth of acknowledgement that made her feel as if someone cared and loved her.   Had she someone who met with her every week for dinner and another who accompanied her shopping or even for a walk she may not have developed her obsession organizing the tins of food. She had no hobbies, no dog to walk nor a cat to jump into her lap. She didn't seem to have any interests. Not even walking to see the leaves change or the store front windows decorated. All she had was her careful organization so that everything was frozen in its perfect place till she herself was in affect frozen in her perfect place. Controlling everything in its place may have been her dream doing her job however, if it was a successful company there is no stopping with everything in its perfect place and so the seeds of perfecting organization may have been part of Marcia so that all she could do was live life through others just as she followed Norman.

Marcia of all the characters sure got our attention and so maybe she was a leader - she was like watching a leaf or tree branch slowly make its way to the edge of a waterfalls till the pull is so great over it goes. By the time you realize she was not going to head for the shoreline it was too late because you would risk your life trying to save her with very little chance of success.

The story got me thinking - we often make contact with those who are alone during the holidays and  yet, this story reminds me how just a brief weekly phone call or a note in the mail a couple of times a month would help someone living alone - we all like recognition however, as we age there are fewer folks who recognize us each day.  Also, the blessings for those of us who have established an intimate relationship are more than we realize until we read a story like this -

These characters seem to me to be yearning for something they do not know how to fix much less really understand what is the matter with themselves. We are all taught to be strong, independent and capable or else in our old age they take the keys and lock us up in a nursing home. Like saving for retirement - things happen - And so, for more of us then society likes to acknowledge we are not prepared - and then society gets annoyed mostly I think because thinking about their own retirement presents them with one more problem and seniors remind them of that problem.

Today reminds me that the smallest things can make a difference - I emailed Johnson and Johnson with an idea for them since my friend and I have been having less then desirable experiences using band-aids - they returned the email asking me to call them - we chatted and chatted for over a half hour about the experiences my friend and I experienced as I explained crepe paper skin after 75 and thin, easily torn skin after 85 - In return surprise today was a Fed Ex package with a full box of window wipes, a full package of furniture wax sheets and one of these new dusters - it was such a lift after a week laying around so I tried each out and I thought, even one of these products purchased when I shop would be such a simple unexpected gift to send to someone who lives alone.

Never thought too much of attending a Senior Center but this story pushes me - I will not be able to work forever and the kind of work I have been doing does not give me free weekends or evenings when most groups get together. Yep, I am a fixer - may not be able to fix the characters in this book but I sure can fix some things about my own life.

And lastly hope I got their names correct - for some reason reading this I mixed up all their names and had other ways of IDing each - my brain is still full of meds - what can I say...

[marcie]

It's great to see you here, Barbara, keeping an "eye" on us (sorry, I couldn't resist). I'm glad you are able to be at your computer. How wonderful that you shared some ideas with Johnson and Johnson and that you were sent a bit of a reward.

I don't think that Marcia intentionally caused her own death. I was surprised that Marcia dies in the story (I didn't see it coming) but I see the book as balanced between Pym's perspective on various problems in society and within and among individuals and the strength of people making daily decisions and facing life's challenges.

[pedln]

Barbara, I'm glad you feel up to being back with us, and as always, your comments hit right to the point.  Folks really don't have to go out hole hog or be elaborate to show concern for others.  Thanks for reminding us that a little kindness and a little thoughtfulness go a long way.

And now I'm hitting the road for a two-day drive east.  Hope to connect with everyone tonight at the motel.

[ursamajor]

Barbara, I am so glad to see you back with your surgery behind you.  Eye surgery is especially worrisome. Happy to know you are all right.

[JoanP]

Oh, I'm happy and relieved too, Barbara!  It was good to hear from you with your thought-provoking post.

I see the book as balanced between Pym's perspective on various problems in society and within and among individuals and the strength of people making daily decisions and facing life's challenges. Marcie

Do you think Pym intended a broader commentary on the decline in moral values and responsibility in the 70's, the insufficiency indadequate social services provided in an impersonal welfare state, the decline in church attendance and the accompanying source of support the "excellent women"  had always provided in the past?  Or  is her focus on the state of the women who never married - as she has done in the past.  Do some handle their situation better than others? Is the problem made worse because they live in London?  Would they have done better to live in the country, do you think?

Barbara points out these people have nothing in their lives - no real reason to get up in the morning. Except to go to the office.  They are lacking intimacy with other  human beings - they don't even have pets - most of them don't have books as companions.  (Though Marcia and Letty have anthologies of poetry at their bedside, did you notice that?)  They have nowhere to turn for help...Barbara, I agree, they don't even understand the problem themselves.  

Instead, they keep their loneliness secret - even from one another.  Why?  Pride?  Shame because no one loves them, because they feel unlovable?  Perhaps if they kept a diary as Barbara Pym did, they would come to a better understanding of themselves.  

Pedln - take care.  Which direction are you headed, east or west?  We'll look forward to hearing from you tonight.

[ursamajor]

Joan, your

the insufficiency inadequate social services provided in an impersonal welfare state, the decline in church attendance and the accompanying source of support the "excellent women"  had always provided in the past?   

It seems to me that as far as Norman and Marcia go, this is a case of you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.  It was not so much that social services were inadequate as that Marcia would have none of them.  People choose to go to church services or not to go.  Perhaps there were still excellent women in the church but they did not cross paths with those outside their congregations.

Is there a moral dilemma as to whether social services, or indeed food, should be forced on the unwilling?  It is my belief that the ultimate right we have is to choose not to eat.  The idea of someone installing a feeding tube against my will is the stuff of nightmare.  My children all know that when my time runs out I want no interference in the process.  Isn't that a basic human right?

Yes, Marcia is exasperating.  a person who continually rejects help is frustrating to those who wish to provide help.  Marcia truly made her bed.

[BarbStAubrey]

This is one eye again, [ marcie]

There is the dynamic that family and friend survivors of suicide deal with that explains, the ultimate control is suicide. Survivors deal with the kind of wringing of hands, mind and heart that we have shared in this discussion, which continues and brings some survivors to their knees taking years and years to recover.

It sounds callous to say they made a choice about their life - it is easier to believe folks have the right to make choices about partners, friends, unnecessary surgery, what and how much they eat, drink and how they choose to be merry and that our desire to feel integrated, self-accepting, self-respect is not dependent on their beliefs or behavior. However, there is something about life - an individual life - a life we can imagine walking in their shoes when they choose life threatening behavior or death.

Thinking further, if someone chooses to give up their life for a greater cause that our society considers worthy and they die in the process we do not wrangle kicking and stomping over their choice - it seems to affect us when the death was unnecessary and especially, if we recognize the circumstances and knew in our hearts there was another choice.  

I do not think in this discussion we can come up with an answer to how we help those we think are suicidal because if there was an answer hundreds of thousands of survivors, each year would not be attending meetings and paying for psychiatric care after someone close to them committed suicide.

If suicide is the ultimate control then there has to be other control issues for that person. Certainly, an obsession with order and cleanliness like Marcia is a control issue however, there are many other control issues including folks who need to control the behavior of family members who are often rage-a-holics or who batter loved ones. They are attempting to control.

In fact even Norman in our story was trying to control his surroundings so he would feel the traditional, acceptable, distant but still the intimacy he experienced while he was working. By attending many churches rather than sticking with one and building intimacy he wanted to control his surroundings to meet his need.  

We know now [Charlie Rose had a great series on the brain explaining all this] that all compulsive behavior affects certain parts of the brain that require more and more stimulation as time goes on. I have not heard if there is a limit to the stimulation required and if all compulsive behaviorists when they reach the limits of what around them they can control start on themselves. Certainly, we have learned that anorexia is a control issue where the person can control their food intake and their body weight – but they too, like floating to the edge, if the pull of the waterfalls grabs hold they do not have the strength to resist and over they go.

And so, we are really reading how an older person can slip into becoming anorexic. We mostly think of this as a disease affecting younger women who have no power to control their lives – hmmm maybe this is a disease not talked about as others in this discussion have suggested because we are all aware how little power is in the hands of the older generation not only by society, the community, but even in families, with others making choices for us. Many of us are ignored except when the younger family member needs us or has extra time or the dutiful traditional holidays mean the picture is not complete without grama and gramps.

I am thinking as I write as if talking out loud – but I can see again the reason to have interests, hobbies, the value of speaking up even if those around act bored till we find those who like to listen and share their own stories – if nothing else schools and daycares are filled with kids to read to for a half hour one or two days a week. The teachers love it.

[serenesheila]

My daughter and I have both been ill.  She had EColi, a bacterial infection, and the flu.  It was scary.  I just had intestinal flu.  But, I wasn't able to concentrate.  So, I fell behind in my reading.

Today, I have spent my day reading.  I am half way through EW, and also half way through our other book.  So far, I prefer EW, to QIA.  I am finding the second book depressing.  I am a single, 76 y/o widow, my middle aged daughter is living with me, as are our Yorkie, and our cat.  I seldom leave home, due to a back injury.  Most of my friends have either died, or moved away.  I seldom see anyone, except my doctors, and my house cleaner.  D0es that sound boring?  It isn't.  I am very content. 

My computer gives me access to others, whenever I want some contact.  I love to read.  In addition, I watch a number of favorite programs on my TV.  I am interested in world affairs, and politics.  I enjoy the news programs on Sundays.  I enjoy most PBS programs.  I even watch a few regular programs.  I am quite happy with my life.

I am an only "child", and am used to spending a lot of time, alone.  As for suicide, my mother once told me that if she became unable to take care of herself, she would end her life.  She did just that, in a retirement community.  She was 88 y/o.  She just stopped eating, as Marcia did.  It was always important to her, to be in control.  Her last control issue was con
trol of her food intake.  Sad.

Sheila



 
.

[Tom in Cantab]

Hi everyone

I've just been catching up on the discussion of QIA and must commend you all for your insight and diligence.  This is the book that many devoted Pymmites avoid, because it is atypical -- darker than her early works, and far removed from the 1950's world of Excellent Women, where all of life's problems could be solved by a chat with the Vicar or a cup of tea.  But it is also the book that was short-listed for the Booker Prize, her literary masterpiece, and people who find her early works boring and twee often prefer this one.

When Barbara took early retirement due to illness she moved to a small village in Oxfordshire with her sister.  I don't know if she was eager to move to the country, or if they could simply not afford to remain in London (I must ask Hazel Holt).  But I do know that Barbara's sister, who worked for the BBC, made more money than Barbara, who worked as an assistant editor for a non-profit anthropological organization.  So the lives of the people in QIA may represent what she imagined could happen to aging office workers like herself who didn't have a sister, a cat, English Literature and the Anglican Church to comfort and sustain them.

In response to a couple of earlier posts about social class, I'm going to recommend two outstanding papers from the Pym Society archives, both by Tim Burnett.  The first paper includes a discussion of the names of the characters in QIA, and may be found at http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett03.html.  If you like this, Tim presented a second paper in 2005 that you can read here http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett05.html

Finally, I'm going to recommend a paper describing how a professor taught QIA to college students.  This one is on Google Books, and a few pages are missing, but you can read most of it, including the brilliant close reading of the very first paragraph of Quartet.  (In one of Barbara's notebooks now in the Bodleian Library archives, she wrote "Do their hair!!")  This is also an example of Pym's skill as a writer; while the narrative flows smoothly and the dialogue is always natural, there is never a wasted word or comma, and every modifier speaks volumes.  Here's the link: http://books.google.com/books?id=5ZH3BunpEK8C&lpg=PP1&dq=all%20this%20reading&pg=PA194#v=onepage&q&f=false

Best wishes to all,
Tom

[salan]

Edwin has found something of interest (churches and church holidays).   This gives him something to look forward to (and don't we all need that?) as well as social companionship of a sort.

Norman is a fairly negative person.  I think that perhaps he always has been--his nature, rather than circumstances.  I did find myself wondering if he would keep the house.  It pleased me to think about him living there and fixing it up; but I don't think he will.

I felt like Letty was the main character even though she was the most nondescript; but that word in itself descripes her perfectly.  I can't see her moving to the country.

I thought this was a most depressing book.  I didn't find much humor in it.  Somethings did evoke a smile in me, but on the whole; it just depressed me.

It's not a book that I would care to read again.
Sally

[bellemere]

My friend, a professor of English lit., married her partner of some 18 years and they retired to Cape Cod.  In a few months he died.  She told me she joined a unitarian church  "just the old volunteer things and community meetings, but it works."  she had the cat, too, and some money, and her still-inquisitive mind, just lacked the sister. 

[JoanP]

This is the book that many devoted Pymmites avoid, because it is atypical -- darker than her early works, and far removed from the 1950's world of Excellent Women, where all of life's problems could be solved by a chat with the Vicar or a cup of tea.

Knowing that "devoted Pymmites"  feel this way about Quartet is some consolation to those of us who come away from this book feeling...as Sally does, that we would not want to read it again.  I'm wondering if we would feel this way had we read any of the eight other novels separating Quartet from Excellent Women.  

I also liked Tom's   comment that  "the lives of the people in QIA may represent what Pym imagined could happen to aging office workers like herself who didn't have a sister, a cat, English Literature and the Anglican Church to comfort and sustain them."

 Bellemere - your Eng. Prof friend had all the ingredients for contentment in  retirement - Pym would have approved.  And Sheila's got the daughter, the cat and loves to read....PLUS -her computer gives her access to others, whenever she wanst some contact.

The August Quartet, we are told, did not read, they had no pets - no relatives, except Edwin - and were not members of any social organization - only Edwin attended church services.  I'd like to hear what you thought of Marcia's cremation service.  To me, that was as sad as the retirement party.  I can't imagine what it would have been like if not for Edwin's efforts.  Hmmm,perhaps Edwin is the book's protagonist, then?  I can't see Letty, Sally.  Not strong enough a presence in the book - though she is trying to cope and keeps herself looking nice...

Ursa, do you suppose we find Marcia so exasperating because we realize that she needed help, but believe in her basic right to not eat if she made the decision not to?  Are we convinced that she did that?  Or did she just waste away in her solitude...making no decision at all...about whether to eat or not.
What touched me most was to read how she responded to the slightest gestures  of care from others - Letty offering her tea, the nurse in the hospital calling her "dear" - and was it Norman who encouraged her to sit and talk with the four even if she didn't want dessert.  We're told she softened at the invitation...

Could Janice have noted her emaciated appearance and called in someone from the health department or medical services?  Could the young doctor who did the post-operative checkup who noticed her loss of weight have referred her immediately for further evaluation?  I agree, you can't force someone to eat when they have decided they wanted to die, but no one knows if that's what Marcia did.

What would YOU have done?  Is there anyone in your acquaintance who is alone, who would appreciate recognition -  a kind word?  What do you think of this idea as a way of taking the edge off the glum feelings we seem to be sharing -
Some time during the next few days,  let's  send a card, or take  a plant...a loaf of pumpkin bread, a special tea blend - to someone who is alone.  And as Barbara suggests, the greatest gift of all - sit and listen.  Wouldn't that be a positive way to deal with some of this exasperation we are feeling today?

[JudeS]

I am rereading this book and indeed trying hard to like it. When I read this sentence (chap.21) 
"He presumed that he and Edwin would be sharing the cost of the meal between them, Letty being a woman, and Norman something a litttle less than the kind of man one might expect to treat one to lunch".

The question that occurred to me was ,Did the author like her characters or have any real empathy for them?

If she didn't that might explain why this book is so hard for some of us to like.  Usually when an author shows understanding and empathy for  a protagonist we enter into the same emotions.  I could site other examples for her disparaging remarks but I would like to know what others think.