Author Topic: Poetry Page  (Read 725012 times)

Babi

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #160 on: March 06, 2009, 09:09:48 AM »
BARB, "Postponement" is intriguing.  What I read was a bird building a nest in a 'leafless tree" and being twitted about his recklessness. However, if he had been born to an 'evergreen' tree...that is, well-provided for, the marriage would have been approved.  One does suspect that the poet is speaking of himself.

Here it the second of the "Three Satires of Circumstance".

     2. By Her Aunt's Grave

"Sixpence a week", says the girl to her lover,
"Aunt used to bring me, for she could confide
In me alone, she vowed.  "Twas tocover
The cost of er headstone when she died.
And that was  year ago last June;
I've not yet fixed it. But I must soon."

"And where is the money now, my dear?"
"Oh, snug in my purse....Aunt was so slow
In saving it--eighty weeks, or near." ...
"Let's spend it," he hints.  "For she won't know.
There's a dance tonight at the Load of Hay."
She passively nods.  And they go that way.


I can only be glad the Aunt died believing she could trust in this
'passive' niece.  But I wonder just what message Hardy intended by it. So many are possible here.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

fairanna

  • Posts: 263
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #161 on: March 06, 2009, 09:58:47 AM »
babi the first one that comes to my mind YOU CAN'T TRUST ANYONE!  Which is sad but also sadly true.. or we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.....My children who had invested with a RELIABLE company will find themselves working long after retirement time.....We kept a car for twenty years until our last child graduated from college...It would seem from Hardy's poem most children have never been raised to believe Honesty is the best policy  and do unto others as you would have them do to you...ah well will hope the third one is a happier one...


PS my oldest son had (has) naturally curly hair his short beard is without curl and since he keeps his hair short ala today's style for men I have no idea if it is curly still....however his sixteen years old daughter , my oldest grandchild has beautiful naturally curly hair...

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #162 on: March 06, 2009, 02:18:39 PM »
Wasn't there a shampoo called Tressamie - something about Tress Amie is ringing a bell and I cannot place it - but I must say the word Tresses sounds so ethereal - like the Waterhouse painting of the Lady of Shalott.

Babi - I howled laughing at By Her Aunt's Grave what a great little story in a poem no less  :D
Poor Aunt - the height of powerlessness - being dead...

Anna that was the realization that hit me - we are taught as children all about be trustworthy and that is the ideal that we should function when we meet and deal with others till I read somewhere that if that was the ideal it was not societies idea of reality - or else we would not have first on the agenda in all societies some form of a legal system and a system of punishment often given added weight by being tied to religious beliefs.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellemere

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #163 on: March 06, 2009, 05:06:12 PM »
"For she won't know."  That's the key, isn't it?  If you believe too strongly in a literal afterlife, you can picture yourself lookin down at your funeral or grave and saying, "Not like that! That;s not what I wanted, dammit! "
When someone in my family asks me"What kind of funeral do you want?" I just say funerals are for the living; you;ll think of something."
'

fairanna

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #164 on: March 06, 2009, 08:19:13 PM »
Bellemere I like your answer My father when asked what kind of funeral he wanted he said "Just tie me in a toe sack (potato sack) and throw me in the Mississippi River...We were Irish and lived in an Irish /Catholic community ...children used to go to funerals when someone died...no babysitter for them..and it was a fun time to be there...young children as I was played hide and seek among the caskets in the rooms and NO ONE every said NO Once the funeral director was going down the hall and saw of playing and joyfully asked if we were having a good time..Even if the wake was at home which it often was ..there was food to eat , something to drink and everyone telling funny stories about the departed ..Now if it was a case of a young person or a person who was killed in an accident or some way that didn't seem natural but even it was like Oh I am so sorry "Robbie had to go that way" but in the long run it was a celebration of their life ...and that is what I have asked my family to do ...my Christmas tree has been up and decorated now for six yeas ,.this will be the seventh ...I celebrate Christmas when I feel like.. all year long and I have told them to gather in the living room , turn the lights on and tell all the crazy things I have done and then say Mom knew how to enjoy life...I want no tears but laughter and thank God for blessing me so ....odd anna

Sandy

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #165 on: March 06, 2009, 08:58:02 PM »

 Hi I am new here so especially excited to be joining this group. The singling out of liking the word "darkling" caught my attention. I like words, always have been interested in where they came from and all the shades of meaning. Before retiring I was a teacher, mostly fifth grade, my favorite. It was a job I loved. William Wordsworth is my favorite poet. I especially like the one about daffodils. Anything spring looks good right now.

  *Sandy*

fairanna

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #166 on: March 06, 2009, 09:36:29 PM »
Welcome Sandy if you love poetry you have found the right place..while we do a single poet for a month once in awhile  everyone is welcome to post whatever poem they like by whatever poet they desire ,..that also includes your own...this month we are sharing some of Thomas Hardy's poems ..
I have loved poetry since I was a child and read Mpther Goose and Robert Louis Stevenson and of course your favorite ..how can any forget his Daffodils., I never see them blooming that I dont recite the first few lines. feel free to post a poem from your favorite poet ..you wont go wrong here ...

I have the book with all of Hardy's poems and have been reading them trying to decide WHICH ONE ..this one I checked and it was on line so it makes it easier to share  I had to really ponder after the title what he was saying .this man imagined everything ...I write poetry and I know sometimes I do get an odd idea and am often surprised where it takes me..while I believe we can interpret a poem in many ways  I know my odd ones just came to me and had nothing special or deep ..just where I ended up with my thought ..after reading PAGES of his poetry I am beginning to believe he and I have a lot in common ...a strange thinker , pondering things few others do..what do you think of this poem?

 The Ivy-Wife
 
 
I LONGED to love a full-boughed beech 
  And be as high as he: 
I stretched an arm within his reach, 
  And signalled unity. 
But with his drip he forced a breach,         
  And tried to poison me. 
 
I gave the grasp of partnership 
  To one of other race— 
A plane: he barked him strip by strip 
  From upper bough to base;         
And me therewith; for gone my grip, 
  My arms could not enlace. 
 
In new affection next I strove 
  To coll an ash I saw, 
And he in trust received my love;         
  Till with my soft green claw 
I cramped and bound him as I wove… 
  Such was my love: ha-ha! 
 
By this I gained his strength and height 
  Without his rivalry.         
But in my triumph I lost sight 
  Of afterhaps. Soon he, 
Being bark-bound, flagged, snapped, fell outright, 
  And in his fall felled me! 
 
 

 

Sandy

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #167 on: March 06, 2009, 10:18:23 PM »
 

  fairanna, I liked the poem. It took me several readings to be sure I understood its meaning.
 At first I found it strange, then looking at it from the viewpoint of the ivy looking for its own tree it made a great deal of sense. Am I interpreting it as you do?  The sad ending is inevitable but a surprise to me nonetheless. It is very different but then I have always enjoyed things that are unusual from books to poems, to odd variations of flowers and plants. Pondering is something I enjoy. Taking time, a whole month, for the study of one poet is nice. One advantage of being retired is having the luxury of time to focus on whatever we chose.

We have a whole mass of daffodils that came years and years ago from what had been the family's farm. I'm not sure which came first those daffodils or my love of Wordsworth's poem. Probably the poem. Spring is my favorite time of the year so I seek out spring poetry.

Sandy

MarjV

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #168 on: March 07, 2009, 07:59:41 AM »
The Ivy Wife

Says to me on first thoughts - sometimes we can plan and strive and still not get the result we forsaw

Here's a link to an online Google book that talks about the sympolism of Ivy.  You can go on to the
next page/

  Ivy Wife commentary

Babi

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #169 on: March 07, 2009, 10:06:10 AM »
The 'ivy-wife' was the clinging type.  The first two she tried to latch onto were able to evade her; they weren't the type to tolerate her ivy claws. Having found a 'tree' she could cling to and grow to its height, she sapped its strength until it fell, taking her down as well.  Hardy does so well as finding  analogies to human nature in 'Mother nature'.

FAIRANNA, you could say the third poem of the set is happier, in the sense that
a worse fate was averted.

     3. AT THE ALTAR RAIL     

"My bride is not coming, alas!" says the groom,
And the telegram shakes in his hand.  "I own
It was hurried!  We met at a dancing room
When I went to the Cattle-Show alone,
And then, next night, where the Fountain leaps,
And the Street of the Quarter-Circle sweeps.

"Aye, she won me to ask her to be my wife--
'Twas foolish perhaps!---to forsake the ways
Of the flaring town for a farmer's life.
She agreed.  And we fixed it.  Now she says:
"It's sweet of you, dear, to prepare me a nest,
But a swift, short, gay life suits me best.
What I really am you have never gleaned;
I had eaten the apple ere you were weaned."
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

bellemere

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #170 on: March 07, 2009, 10:09:39 AM »
I guess this early poem of Hardy would not be considered a great one, but if you have ever tried to write poetry you can see the poor guy sweating to keep that triple rhyme scheme going once he started with it. And it does have some of his coined words that I like.  Guns, "upmouthed" for example.
I
t must have been the Boer War; the publication date is 1899.  Right? Or were the Brits up to something else then?



THE GOING OF THE BATTERY
WIVES' LAMENT
(November 2, 1899)



I

O it was sad enough, weak enough, mad enough -
Light in their loving as soldiers can be -
First to risk choosing them, leave alone losing them
Now, in far battle, beyond the South Sea! . . .

II

- Rain came down drenchingly; but we unblenchingly
Trudged on beside them through mirk and through mire,
They stepping steadily--only too readily! -
Scarce as if stepping brought parting-time nigher.

III

Great guns were gleaming there, living things seeming there,
Cloaked in their tar-cloths, upmouthed to the night;
Wheels wet and yellow from axle to felloe,
Throats blank of sound, but prophetic to sight.

IV

Gas-glimmers drearily, blearily, eerily
Lit our pale faces outstretched for one kiss,
While we stood prest to them, with a last quest to them
Not to court perils that honour could miss.

V

Sharp were those sighs of ours, blinded these eyes of ours,
When at last moved away under the arch
All we loved.   Aid for them each woman prayed for them,
Treading back slowly the track of their march.

VI

Someone said:  "Nevermore will they come:  evermore
Are they now lost to us."  O it was wrong!
Though may be hard their ways, some Hand will guard their ways,
Bear them through safely, in brief time or long.

VII

- Yet, voices haunting us, daunting us, taunting us,
Hint in the night-time when life beats are low
Other and graver things . . . Hold we to braver things,
Wait we, in trust, what Time's fulness shall show.




Sandy

  • Posts: 30
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #171 on: March 07, 2009, 11:13:09 AM »
The Ivy Wife

Says to me on first thoughts - sometimes we can plan and strive and still not get the result we forsaw

Here's a link to an online Google book that talks about the sympolism of Ivy.  You can go on to the
next page/

  Ivy Wife commentary

fairanna

  • Posts: 263
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #172 on: March 07, 2009, 11:36:47 AM »
thanks do much for the poems posted and the comments ., that is what I love about sharing poetry ....how others see it ..it often opens new ways to look at something....I write poetry and often write from the point of view of something else...I have been a dog in one, a cat, a spider etc ...for the time I am writing I AM the speaker ...so when reading Hardy some of his poems could be like mine or his observation of a real situation and his description of a real person...His poetry intrigues me .. written at a time I only know through history it challenges me to decipher what he wrote ..I enjoy reading everyone's views because it also opens me to other ways of looking at his poetry.

He writes a lot about the military , in some of his poems he seems to speak harshly about Englands desire to add the rest of the world to its empire...at the expense of the people who serve and their families..as military wife I experienced those absences for 28 years...my husband was a pilot and was often sent to another country on a few hours notice..no time to do anything but say goodbye with a prayer he would return...most of his poems about the military seems to understand not only what the man must face but what the wife and children ,the families face alone...

Thanks to everyone for really helping us study a poet who wrote so many poems ...there are a lot poems referring to death but this was also a time when typhoid fever was rampant, TB etc and then you add war  To me it explains a lot of his sadness and references to death.. He wrote because he could not  not write ...I know that feeling..

Thanks Marj for the link I thought I loved ivy when I planted a bit in 1972 and have ever since fought it as it seeks to take over my home and my trees and yard.....ivy is a  siren ...who promises to add beauty but really destroys....and almost impossible to maintain ....augh

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #173 on: March 07, 2009, 11:48:39 AM »
Welcome Sandy - glad to have your voice among us.

I wonder if the ivy was introduced into the area rather than indigenous like the Kudzu was brought into the Southeast - there are so many jokes about the invading kudzu -  http://www.jackanthonyphotography.com/yahoola/kudzu/

If a house is vacant over a summer I  have seen it be covered by late fall - and all those abandoned vehicles left in fields and front lawns are nicely camouflaged - my funny bone is saying if the ivy was brought into the area and later takes over it could tie the two poems together since the alter-rail wife addresses trying to transplant a girl who would wiether and die since she is obviously not the clinging type

Never put it together before till you questioned the war Bellemere but the Boer War from 1899 to 1902 takes place a year after the Spanish American war when we were fighting FOR Cuba.

Back later - running late...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Sandy

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #174 on: March 07, 2009, 01:16:20 PM »
 
   Margv, you analysis was ever so much more in depth than mine. I need to learn to read poetry while searching for symbolism and peel away the superficial layers to get to the core of the poet's meaning. Maybe this will come with practice. I hope so. Any helps or suggestions would be appreciated.

 Thank you for sharing your interpretation and the reference to the source about IVY.

 Sandy

MarjV

  • Posts: 215
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #175 on: March 07, 2009, 05:09:08 PM »
"It's sweet of you, dear, to prepare me a nest,
But a swift, short, gay life suits me best.
What I really am you have never gleaned;
I had eaten the apple ere you were weaned."

I love these lines from above poem.
Made me chuckle out loud.

Hardy sure did like using his nest/bird/tree symbols.

I am wondering what his feelings were toward women as he
penned these lines.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #176 on: March 07, 2009, 05:16:27 PM »
hehehe love it - " had eaten the apple ere you were weaned." isn't that what we could call a double entendre...

Not to beat an old horse but Marj you put us on the trail  - the Ivy poem has more symbolic meaning than we realized - this is a great site that gives the myths and symbolisms for trees as well it includes Ivy - we have the Beech, Ash and the Ivy - facinating stuff...

http://www.magick-whispers.com/trees.htm
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

MarjV

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #177 on: March 07, 2009, 06:38:33 PM »
"The going of the battery"

Lovely rhythm.   Or should I use "meter".   I don't think it matters if our terminology is appropo exactly - what is important is that we can describe our feelings.

A couple words in that poem were new to me:
unblenchingly
upmouthed

Here's a webpage that has commentary on The Going of the Battery.  I came across it when I Googled "upmouthed"

http://www.teachit.co.uk/armoore/poetry/hardy.htm

MarjV

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #178 on: March 07, 2009, 06:39:38 PM »
off topic:    Twice now I've lost post when I clicked "post".   Tells me I am not allowed to post here.   Bah!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #179 on: March 07, 2009, 07:13:53 PM »
ooowww Marj what a fabulous site you found - just wonderful - and  yes, I know, somedays it is like that - I never know if it is me or the web site or the computer but there you have it - If I have trouble I  usually copy everything onto a word document because one bit of trouble often is the prelude to a whole host of shut downs and by saving what I want to say I do not have to rack my brains trying to re-write exactly what and how I said it. {{Hugs}} it is so frustrating - we are with you...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

fairanna

  • Posts: 263
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #180 on: March 07, 2009, 08:22:50 PM »
Marj I agree with Barbara about the site link...it is really wonderful ...the five years I studied poetry was great but some of the comments expressed really opens my mind..I don't know whether Hardy was introduced in those years  but somewhere I read him and loved his poetry...and it is exciting to be with everyone here who finds it interesting and the same...Lets hope we dint have a breakdown here ..I am just so grateful to have a place to discuss poetry ..and the best thing I don't have  to be "dolled up" to do it PJ"s   messy from working in the yard etc what freedom...!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #181 on: March 07, 2009, 08:51:47 PM »
Yes, I have mixed feelings - my grand wants to get me a camera for  on-line telephone conversations - he has one so that when he uses the internet to call I can see him - but he could be wearing a t-shirt and at 17 still looks grand regardless if he just got out of bed - I just cannot imagine others seeing how I often look sitting in front of this equipment. Ah so - is it pride or self respect. And if I am hiding behind self respect then why would I not dress all the time before communicating with others on-line -  oh dear, and pride goeth before the man - maybe I will plead being a woman on this one...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

MarjV

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #182 on: March 07, 2009, 09:23:58 PM »
I agree - that website is great.

Barb - you can always point the camera at something else instead of you - like a plant or a flower.    Under no conditions do I want to do cam online !   Just because .

fairanna

  • Posts: 263
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #183 on: March 08, 2009, 12:42:10 AM »
Marj I have to smile at the idea of pointing the camera at something else . my computer is in what was my bedroom and it is a MESS I don't want anyone to see me as I am ..which is usually VERY casual and if they saw my room here they would think GEE WHIZ did anna have a fire ?? a disaster ? The truth is I can live with it as I don't really care ..I don't want to and don't have to keep my home spic and span as I did when my husband was alive and we entertained..I can just be me@sloppy and carefree.... ;D ;D ;D

Babi

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #184 on: March 08, 2009, 10:12:23 AM »
Amen, ladies!  It's enough trouble to put on make-up, etc., in order to look nice when going out anywhere. I'm not about to start doing all that because I have an 'in-house' camera!  Comfort, first!!
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

bellemere

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #185 on: March 08, 2009, 11:24:06 AM »
Yes, the Thomas Hardy study site is great.  Like being in a classroom with a professor!  But doesnt leave much for the rest of us to add except "liked" or "dont like"
Reminds me of one of my college professors for poetry, an saintly little nun from Boston, who, at this time of year, loved to quote Frost: "Come with rain, thou loud southwestah!  Bring the singah! Bring the nestah!"

Eeeeeuw!  Camera on computer! I once had a boss who was deaf and used a camera  service that translated his sign language for correspondence.  He loved It!  but he was always in nice business attire when he used it. 

fairanna

  • Posts: 263
Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #186 on: March 08, 2009, 12:34:31 PM »
Bellemere I like to think of it a poetry club..meeting on line in our homes , We need the thoughts and ideas from everyone ...what do we see in each poem, we often see things differently and for me that makes me think differently ..sometimes it means I change my mind on the interpretation and sometimes not...One of my poetry professor said poets bring their feelings to their poetry but to the reader because their experience is different often sees a different message..We never had to agree with her assessment or someone who read it and wrote a book about  ,,in the end we get to decide what it means to us...She would give an assessment on our poems but in the end she would always say it is your poem ....and I apprecited that she didn't expect to just take her word or an EXPERT'S word but we get to decide what we think ...

MarjV

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #187 on: March 08, 2009, 04:00:30 PM »
Bellemere - I agree with Fairanna - we still have feelings or likes or dislikes even tho we read a website with commentary.   On some of the other poems discussed on that website the professor gives alternative commentary.   And this is a learning discussion in addition to being fun.   

We can always add to what someone says.

MarjV

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #188 on: March 08, 2009, 04:07:26 PM »
 I don't think we've had this one posted.   Rather tongue in cheek I'd say - what do you have to comment?

THE RUINED MAID

by: Thomas Hardy (1840-1928)

" 'Melia, my dear, this does everything crown!
Who could have supposed I should meet you in Town?
And whence such fair garments, such prosperi-ty?"--
"O didn't you know I'd been ruined?" said she.
 
"You left us in tatters, without shoes or socks,
Tired of digging potatoes, and spudding up docks;
And now you've gay bracelets and bright feathers three!"--
"Yes: that's how we dress when we're ruined," said she.
 
-- "At home in the barton you said `thee' and `thou,'
And `thik oon,' and `theäs oon,' and `t'other'; but now
Your talking quite fits 'ee for high compa-ny!"--
"Some polish is gained with one's ruin," said she.
 
-- "Your hands were like paws then, your face blue and bleak
But now I'm bewitched by your delicate cheek,
And your little gloves fit as on any la-dy!"--
"We never do work when we're ruined," said she.
 
-- "You used to call home-life a hag-ridden dream,
And you'd sigh, and you'd sock; but at present you seem
To know not of megrims or melancho-ly!"--
"True. One's pretty lively when ruined," said she.
 
-- "I wish I had feathers, a fine sweeping gown,
And a delicate face, and could strut about Town!"--
"My dear -- a raw country girl, such as you be,
Cannot quite expect that. You ain't ruined," said she.

"The Ruined Maid" is reprinted from Poems of the Past and Present. Thomas Hardy. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1902.



From 5th verse:   Megrims : Etymology: Middle English migreime, from Middle French migraine

The responder voice certainly is happy as a "ruined" woman!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #189 on: March 09, 2009, 01:54:01 AM »
The sadness of so many girls mistreated during the nineteenth century - in town they are for sale and in the country for the taking - I get so depressed reading and knowing there is nothing we can do now or then to change what is done in secret - my outrage over what is happening today to the family and helpers of the 9 year old in Brazil is such a bitter pill I am stunned as if poisoned.

This may help change the subject -

Life Laughs Onward
by Thomas Hardy

Rambling I looked for an old abode
Where, years back, one had lived I knew;
Its site a dwelling duly showed,
But it was new.

I went where, not so long ago,
The sod had riven two breasts asunder;
Daisies throve gaily there, as though
No grave were under.

I walked along a terrace where
Loud children gambolled in the sun;
The figure that had once sat there
Was missed by none.

Life laughed and moved on unsubdued,
I saw that Old succumbed to Young:
'Twas well. My too regretful mood
Died on my tongue.


No explanation as to who are the two breasts riven assunder - are they friends, neighbors, family members - No hint - only folks from his past - or...

Trying to dope this out I turned to my book on symbolism and looked at the number Two - one of the many points of departure it suggests is to consider man body and soul - and so in his old abode in a place where grass is growing [sod] where the speaker in this poem had his soul or spirit - or maybe his heart - maybe his concept of love since he says breasts - riven [split with force or violence, to devide into pieces] from his body.

Backing up abode/house a world center, the sheltering aspect of the Great Mother, protection, the universal, our decent into darkness before rebirth and regeneration.

Sod is soil with grass - the soil symbolizes mother earth, the matrix - grass symbolizes useful submission, ones native land - OK to me this one is not deep it is probably only suggesting the natural place of the beginning of his time as a primordial child. This could be an inward ramble looking back, after a regeneration or a rebirth, to the person the speaker had been.

Breasts symbolize love, motherhood, nourishment, the great mother

Gravethe womb of the earth and the Earth Mother, the body imprisoning the soul, both death dealing and sheltering, dying to the world.

I am thinking grave is symbolic in the poem of where he was separated from himself - his faith in human kindness maybe - or maybe just the fact of growing up you are riven from childish things and childish comforts and childish thinking.

The Daisy symbolizes innocence and purity, emblem of the nymph Belides who caught the eye of Vertumnus, the god of orchards. This happened when she was dancing with other nymphs at the edge of a forest. Belides didn't want to be the center of attention, so morphed into the flower bellis. This is the daisy's botanical name.

But why a regretful mood - sad, I could understand but regretful

Tongue is powerful, both preaching and as a serpent - In Greek art, the tongue is a divine attribute, then later, a fearful device of the Gorgon. A two sided symbol finishing the poem with another version of two.

I still do not get regretful -  maybe regretful not personally but more like, it is a regretful thing that we do in order to age.  OK any ideas - I maybe kicking this can too hard.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

fairanna

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #190 on: March 09, 2009, 02:50:52 AM »
Barbara your care in interpreting always gives me something to think about,..When I read it I felt he had returned to a graveyard that once was new---to visit someone he knew ,.perhaps I think when she was alive...the breasts to me are the mounds that a grave makes and they are no longer smooth and neat but aged and daisies fill the hollows that are now there. He finds and then accepts that fact that life goes on...children were playing there and she was known to no one except himself ...he accepts that life has gone on and so has he...

the poem posted by Marj is a clever thing to say that being RUINED was not always such a bad thing...this was at time when women were considered chattel ( and have we really left that behind?) and had she stayed in the country she would have been a farmers wife no doubt ...with none of the fancy things or easy life she now has... after all we had one English King in our time ( perhaps just mine ? ) abdicate for the woman he loved who was a "ruined woman" and Prince Charles had a long affair with a married woman and continued after he married and then married her after was divorced and his wife died.. Frankly so many movies now show more than I care to see and the news and magazines seem to praise couples who live together before marriage, have children born out of wedlock ( why dint they marry as soon as they find they will be parents.) some of my friends her are great grandmothers as their granddaughters are getting pregnant  sans marriage and while we all delighted they had the baby and taken responsibilities for the child, having a job, their own place ( not the father of the child) and a baby sitter who cares for the child.  If there were that many "AFFAIRS" when I was that young I never knew about it ..but young women ought to told as my mother told me and I told my children THERE ARE WORST THINGS IN LIFE THAN NEVER MARRYING...she didn't tell us nor did I tell my children that to suggest they never marry but allow yourself to be old enough and picky enough to marry someone whom you feel is the right person ...I dint know my children did well but now I worry about my four granddaughters ..thank goodness the oldest one is over 21 and with a good government job ...but the next two will be  16 this year and I worry about them  They are being raised in loving ,caring homes , go to church etc but nothing seemed to make a difference  to one who are now young mothers.. Ah I know I have gone far afield and I have a poem I have lost in edit and now will have to return and recopy and paste later today...I guess life is not going to change...sadly ...

Babi

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #191 on: March 09, 2009, 10:00:05 AM »
BARB, you certainly put a lot of work into that poem!  Some symbols are so natural and common that they are used, and understood, without a second thought.  Others you really have to work for.  Have you ever applied that study of symbology to a dream?  Quite informative, actually.

Here's a Hardy poem that, to me, is quite revealing of the poet himself.

    I LOOK INTO MY GLASS

by: Thomas Hardy (1840-1928)

I look into my glass,
And view my wasting skin,
And say, “Would God it came to pass
My heart had shrunk as thin!”
 
For then, I, undistrest
By hearts grown cold to me,
Could lonely wait my endless rest
With equanimity.
 
But Time, to make me grieve,
Part steals, lets part abide;
And shakes this fragile frame at eve
With throbbings of noontide.


 There is a strong element of self-pity here, and one has to wonder about those "hearts grown cold to me".  What was there in the character or personality of Hardy that hearts (plural, you note)  grow cold toward him?
From his writings, I suspect that he was so gloomy a soul that he was depressing to be around.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

fairanna

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #192 on: March 09, 2009, 11:28:47 AM »
Thomas Hardy written in 1927 a year before he died

To me when I read his poetry I see a man who was observant ,who noted the small things and was compelled to put his feelings and thoughts in to poetry,, I had to laugh at his observance of the RUINED ONE...to me he felt she didn't feel very ruined but rather fortunate to be who she was.. He has a sense of humor I noted in my uncles and even my aunts who were already seniors when I was still a child. It is rather a dry sense of humor ...one I loved because it was a HA HA sense but a rather sly one ...

Many of the poems I am reading before he died bemoaned those he knew and lost and I feel a sadness undertone in what he says. There is also a feeling he felt he had lived and loved and in that he had been blessed.  Does any one else see that ?

Here is the poem ....

Seeing the Moon Rise

We used to go to Froom-hill Barrow
       To see the round moon rise
        Into the heath-rimmed skies ,
Trudging thither by plough and harrow
Up the pathway, steep and narrow,
        Singing a song.
Now we do not go there. Why?
        Zest burns not so high!

Latterly we've only conned her
         With a passing glance
          From window or door by chance,
Hoping to go again , high yonder,
As we used, and gaze , and ponder,
          Singing a song.
Thitherward we do not go :
           Feet once quick are slow!
       
According to my figures he was 88 when he died , the same age as my mother...since I am 81 I know how many I have known and loved and are no longer here...fifteen years ago the 24th of this month I lost my dearest friend, my lover and my husband I have made the best of it and for the most part am positive and thankful I was blessed in a thousand ways  Out yesterday to buy some groceries I decided to put on a CD ( it was already in the case) my hearing is just about gone I dont do this often,,,I cant hear the melody and few of the words but enough I recognized the songs ..they were older songs from my past, and all of a sudden I felt the enormous sadness of loss....I have always made an effort to be positiive but when a day like yesterday arrives if I were writing a poem I can tell you it would be sad...

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #193 on: March 09, 2009, 12:08:57 PM »
Fairanna Whoops another post - this is in response to your and Babi's earlier post

Fairanna yes, he seems a gloomy soul doesn’t he - even his novels - they for sure are not cheerful. Babi sees self-pity – maybe so – then I have to look at how we get to self-pity

My refrigerator door cheat-sheet that reminds me of how to go emotionally from here to there quotes from books read over the last 25 years says – Envy [putting value in wanting acceptance = self pity] His first marriage we are told was a disaster and yet he stayed until she died – maybe some of his poetry was releasing his regret that he could not act the cad and leave as many of the characters in his stories.

I know - that was an exhaustive rummage – but it is that word regretful that I could not get my head around and so started to dissect the poem hoping for a clue – and then to me I like to examine what is under the obvious in a poem. Sometimes it is easy but sometimes I end up compelled to work at it.

I agree with your treatise on the state of marriage as it involves children but did you notice your sad commentary shadowed the sadness we read from Hardy - [side note: for some reason calling him Tom just does not seem fitting, even in fun.]

I wonder if gloom comes from a feeling of helplessness to see the morality we were taught be either ignored or degraded so that sadness is the only response. Either that or laugh –

I do not think my laugh was genuine yesterday when I read the Pope thinks the change in values was NOT because women had the pill but because they had dishwashers...!!??!!

That, after being outraged that the mother, doctor and those who helped a 9 year old were excommunicated - a 9 year old - abort twins conceived by a step Dad and the only way they found out she was pregnant was when she went to the Doctor with a Stomach ache. The sanctity of life for whom - Certainly not the child who risks birth death at the minimum. She conceived in rape these children who would remind her for the rest of her life of that rape. Few people still do not seem to appreciate what rape and incest does to a woman that she carries with her to her death. Nor does anyone seem to understand what giving up a baby for adoption does to a woman; again, she carries that for the rest of her life. It is bad enough I know of no woman who ever had an abortion that does not also carry emotional scares - With that, gloom is also my reaction because as much as I have shared, to read and hear of this ignorance overwhelms me.

Ah Babi, looking in the mirror at our wasted skin – ah so…and oh my as we continue to read – OK –  ::)
And shakes this fragile frame at eve
With throbbings of noontide.

As my grandmother used to say – that is all they think of…  ;)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #194 on: March 09, 2009, 12:26:55 PM »
Seeing the moon Rise to me is a commentary on aging - I read a note of ironic wit in his poetry - but then we all bring to a poem what we will - I also notice according to how the day is for me I gain a different perspective often reading the same poem.

Somewhere I have a wonderful Irish Novel about the Rising of the Moon filled with valour by the Irish as they set about righting justice with the use of arms. Maybe hehehe that is it - if guys had to risk a good punch in the eye that leaves them marked with black and blue and maybe even a broken arm - or at least a finger, when they 'ruin' a girl we would either have a lot of discolored guys with broken bones walking the streets or, girls having the power to knock-'em-out may put a crimp in how some guys take what they want from a girl/woman.   ;)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #195 on: March 09, 2009, 04:34:27 PM »
Why coiuldn't Hardy just stop when he "glimpsed" the moon through a window, and just look?

Am I being unfeeling? I spend plenty of time feeling sorry for myself, but at the end of the day, it gets pretty boring. I've lost a lot of things in my life, but I've also gained, I think, in my ability to appreciate what I do have.

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #196 on: March 09, 2009, 04:46:51 PM »
OK, I'm in a snotty mood today. The other day, we went to my favorite spot at the ocean. The sky was blue, and the sea, which reflects the sky was a deep azure. The California poppies were in bloom. And two whales swam by!! I sat there transfixed. Next to me was a woman, turned away from the sea to talk constantly to her companion about some interior decorating. When the whales spouted, I would say "Thar she blows", but the woman wouldn't bother to turn around and look.

Hardy was a man who knew how to look. Such a person is always rich!

fairanna

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #197 on: March 09, 2009, 07:59:23 PM »
Joan that was a funny remark You are just honest and I understand how you feel ..well sort of ..I spent a few days on Amelia Island off the northern coast of Florida ..it is a special place ...I spent my time on the beach , uncluttered and peaceful ..watching the ocean move from sea to shore, watching as a mist rose since the day was warm and the sea water cool ...I have always thought it was romantic the way the sea came in and kissed the shore, bringing it gifts sometimes , when the sun was out bringing in golden tinged waves..the sandpipers which always tickle me the way they seem to skip, the clouds the horizon,,,but off to one side was a lady reading a book,, I never saw her stop and look at the scene before us..and I wrote a poem asking her was it more important to read the tales of men when nature was telling her so much ...Perhaps she was killing two birds with one stone,..enjoying the shore and reading ..I am just not that ambidextrous  If I ever took a book it would lay there unopened and unread...

and pooh on that lady who thought interior decorating was more interesting that watching whales spouting ....you have to catch the action when it happens ...!

Babi

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #198 on: March 10, 2009, 09:12:24 AM »
"I wonder if gloom comes from a feeling of helplessness to see the morality we were taught be either ignored or degraded so that sadness is the only response."     
  I think you are right,BARB.  I hadn't thought of it that way, but your observaton fits well with my own feelings on the subject.
   Also, I've often seen old people, wrinkled skin and all, who looked beautiful to me. Now, if I could just convince my mirror that applied to me as well! 

JOANK, I had to smile at your post.  There have been occasions when I would try to throw myself a grand 'pity party', but like you I found myself so boring I had to leave!   ;)  :D

ANNA, I loved your image of the sea 'kissing' the shore and sometimes leaving gifts.  It read like a poem, and I hope it made its way into one.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #199 on: March 10, 2009, 04:22:53 PM »