Author Topic: Poetry Page  (Read 683389 times)

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3960 on: July 08, 2016, 10:23:31 AM »
Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets


2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.



April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.


A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.


Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Link: First Post of Our Discussion on July 1


Shakespeare Anniversary Links
Discussion Leaders: Barb



BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3961 on: July 08, 2016, 11:46:16 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet VIII


Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly?
Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy.
Why lov'st thou that which thou receiv'st not gladly,
Or else receiv'st with pleasure thine annoy?
If the true concord of well-tuned sounds,
By unions married, do offend thine ear,
They do but sweetly chide thee, who confounds
In singleness the parts that thou shouldst bear.
Mark how one string, sweet husband to another,
Strikes each in each by mutual ordering,
Resembling sire and child and happy mother
Who all in one, one pleasing note do sing:
    Whose speechless song, being many, seeming one,
    Sings this to thee: 'Thou single wilt prove none.'

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZrk0Mldbzk

English Country Dances - 17Th Century Music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkQzq5fOEK4
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3962 on: July 08, 2016, 11:52:48 AM »
Leah's post is at the bottom of the heading - long rough day yesterday and had to shuffle things around today

Leah the songs are lovely - I do not think I have ever actually heard Mollie Cyrus so that was a treat and a lovely song she offered. thanks.

Be back much later today - I have monster problems trying to get these people their home...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3963 on: July 08, 2016, 04:35:46 PM »
LEAH: wonderful songs!

I can't say I understood the Joan of Arc one, (the third) but it brought tears to my eyes. My mother had promised as  a child that she would name her oldest daughter after Joan of Arc: naturally, I've always been fascinated by her.

I can't say I understand the sonnet either: it seems to change in the middle. I love the image of the harmony of music being like the harmony of husband, wife, and child.

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3964 on: July 08, 2016, 06:13:46 PM »
JoanK, I do not really "get it" either, but just like you, I always cry when I hear it. We must be getting it on some level, eh? ❤️

Mkaren557

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3965 on: July 08, 2016, 06:52:45 PM »
I really do not get this one at all, but I love Leah's music.  I am really glad I don't have to write an essay on this one.  I think we are still being encouraged to marry and produce that child.

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3966 on: July 08, 2016, 08:00:47 PM »
Here's my attempt at what sonnet 8 is saying:

Why aren't you enjoying this sweet, joyful music?  It's scolding you, but gently, showing, to your single voice, the order and harmony of well-matched voices singing together, like the members of a family, melding together to make one rich tapestry.  You, being single, with your single voice, won't have this richness.

A rather idealized notion of family life.

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3967 on: July 08, 2016, 08:04:00 PM »
I've peeked ahead.  This argument doesn't go on forever, though it does for a little while yet.

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3968 on: July 08, 2016, 08:06:18 PM »
Thanks for the spoiler, Pat!!! 😉

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3969 on: July 08, 2016, 08:50:39 PM »
PatH: I should clarify: I am grateful!

After reading these few sonnets, I re-recognzed that having children was never been on my bucket list. From the beginning of this venture into S's sonnets, I must confess(?) a lack of - hmmm, empathy(?) with what registers in my 21st century mindset as his annoyingly persistent, seemingly overwrought concern about procreation.

That said, reading these few long-lived sonnets has made me aware of the vast historical evolution of the levels, layers & intensities of concerns shaping the social self in all its expressions. And I do feel more abundant for it. Ooo-la-wee!🙏

Namaste!

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3970 on: July 08, 2016, 09:24:08 PM »
Are these getting more confusing to only me, or do others find them a bit difficult to "feel" what he is saying? 

This for me is saying live life with happiness, enjoy the music like life, pleasing and accepting the things in life that brings you joy.  He then seems to say that a string of music comes together,  much like the union of family.

PatH.,  I read everyone else's post after I posted so I can see they were as confused, but it seems you and I were on the same wavelength with seeing the family unit in this Sonnett.

Leah, I think Shakespeare is very much about family, procreating being of much importance in life.  Generations can only continue with having children to carry on the lineage.  Those songs were very sad, I did not feel sadness in this sonnet for some reason, I felt hope and encouragement to live life and carry life on.

JoanK., Wow!  Named for St. Joan of Arc.  That sure sets a high standard to live up to for such a little girl growing up. 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3971 on: July 08, 2016, 11:54:08 PM »
Well let's hope three is my lucky charm - what a day - I've written two other posts trying to remember what was in the fist and this is my third - the phone would ring and I would be searching for information and when finally over an hour later I could return to my post of course it was gone - maybe just as well I can start fresh.

This poem with the placement of words reminds me of high school attempting to translate Latin and having the Prepositions, adjectives and adverbs after the noun or verb.

He still seems to be speaking of the reasons to have children. But what struck me is the first sentence
Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly? there is so many inflections that can change the meaning of this question - one way it sounds almost plaintive another it sounds challenging 'Why'  still another as if asking curiously and still one more as if challenging the very idea of even wasting time hearing music sadly.

The next phrase is no help at all - within just a few words he has sweet and war quite a dichotomy. Nothing harmonious about sweets with war

I too get the harmony with mother, father, child and further that the child resembles the parents.

The sentence that had me light up is, "Whose speechless song, being many, seeming one," oh oh oh how much fun - this is a time in history when music is no longer Plainchant or what is called Monophony, a melody most often sung by one voice or if more than one voice than they sing not in harmony but as one, in unison while the background singers sing a sorta drone sound - almost sounds as if imitating an organ or something.

This followed Polyphony where there were usually two voices with independent musical lines in harmony or two voices an octave apart singing the same music still in both instances with the drone type singers in the background holding it all together.

Well it was just around the time of Shakespeare's birth that Baroque music with the Fugue called Polyphonic became 'the' music - Harmony among voices and we hear less of the drone backing. Bach wasn't born till 1685 and the English composer Henry Purcell not till 1659 - any Baroque music Shakespeare could have heard would have been Monteverdi, born in Italy 1567, a revolutionary, marking the change from polyphony to the Baroque harmonies.

And so it was for me a delight to read the description of music as, "speechless song, being many, seeming one," which is a perfect description of Plainchant. Love it...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3972 on: July 09, 2016, 12:21:10 AM »
Oh I forgot the post never showed up where I talked to Joan - so glad in this discussion we have become like a kaffeeklatch group so that we can see the wonders we are all brining - yes, Joan, I too remember the stories of Joan of Arc - wow, that was a lot to live up to - just imagine a young girl the head of an army and they followed her into battle - amazing.

Looks like if nothing else we really had an opportunity to enjoy music prompted by this Sonnet - Leah your links were a stroke of genius - nice background while writing our posts.

PatH you saw that first question type sentence as if scolding - that is some sentence - it can have so many meanings can't it based on how you use your voice saying it - a whole play could be written differently with a different ending based on that one sentence alone.

Seems like it Karen that all the sonnet really says is get married and have children and then Leah says having children was never high on her list of life time achievements - Bellamarie sees the joy and has experienced the personal happiness of a family and sees the unity of family in the sonnet. My do we have a great group of diverse life experiences - don't y'all just love it. Really how often today do we get a group with so much diversity enjoying the conversation we are sharing.

Trying to think of what we know about women in the sixteenth and early seventeenth century I am thinking it may be more than having a look alike as a mirror to our youth but a women's entire economic future is in the hands of the children as well as, marriage was more of a legal arrangement with few the culmination of a love story between two people.

I guess it would be a good thing to look at what a women's life was about in the sixteenth century but frankly I would rather just enjoy the words, the associations that these Sonnets bring up, listen to the rhythm in the poem and see the underlying love, concern for our time here on earth and how we can add our influence to a not only our old age but into the future that is suggested in these Sonnets. 

Well tomorrow my son and his wife come up and we spend the day - because of his surgery and then Sally burned herself bad enough to be in the hospital and then one of the twins graduated from Tech and that is a 9 hour trip to Lubbock - it was one thing after the other - so I'm really looking forward to their visit tomorrow.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3973 on: July 09, 2016, 01:41:52 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet IX


Is it for fear to wet a widow's eye
That thou consumest thyself in single life?
Ah! if thou issueless shalt hap to die,
The world will wail thee, like a makeless wife;
The world will be thy widow and still weep
That thou no form of thee hast left behind,
When every private widow well may keep
By children's eyes her husband's shape in mind.
Look what an unthrift in the world doth spend
Shifts but his place, for still the world enjoys it;
But beauty's waste hath in the world an end,
And kept unused, the user so destroys it.
    No love toward others in that bosom sits
    That on himself such murderous shame commits.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oRdDhFDv_M

Thomas Tallis 16c. Lamentations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNAFeCLDSgE
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3974 on: July 09, 2016, 09:44:40 AM »
In this sonnet I hear Shakespeare telling the widow, do not stay a widow especially if she has not yet had children.  He seems to say to not waste beauty by not procreating.  He is telling the widow she should not waste her ability to birth, to not use that given ability is to be a murderer to oneself.


After reading this a few times it reminded me of the scripture:
 Jesus' Sermon on the Mount :  Chapter 5: 13-16

13 ¶Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


Barb, Thank you for your insight and kind words, 
Quote
sees the joy and has experienced the personal happiness of a family
  As I sense many of us in this book club has experienced personal happiness of family.  I'm happy to hear your family will be coming for a much needed visit.  Enjoy your time together!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3975 on: July 09, 2016, 06:55:48 PM »
BARB: you're great to keep this going amongst (Shakespeare is influencing me) all that stuff: good and bad! Hope it lightens up.

I'm still stuck on the last poem, and it's image of music. I love classical music, but my hold on dates is dim, but you're right; this could have been a time when polyphonic music was new and strange to people in the same way that the "modern" classical music of the twentieth century with it's "dissonance" seemed new and strange. And counterpoint might have seemed like discord.  like the idea of counterpoint: three instruments, each doing it's own thing, but blending together as a whole.

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3976 on: July 09, 2016, 07:04:00 PM »
In spite of the fact that many of these poems are addressed to a man, it has occurred to me that some of these poems might be talking to Queen Elizabeth! The fact that she didn't have an heir must have been of great concern to Englishmen, afraid that at her death, a bloody war of succession would break out.

I've just finished reading a book "The Year of Lear" by James Shapiro which points out how much of Shakespeare's writing in the year he wrote the play "King Lear" (1605-6) refers to the political issues of the day. I admit, that point of view is getting in the way of just enjoying the poems as poems.

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3977 on: July 09, 2016, 07:17:03 PM »
JoanK: The mention of Lear jumped out at me. A couple of my friends are from Boston and New Jersey - their accents always transform 'Leah' into 'Lear' which became a nickname that I always liked (never having had a nickname before.) Don't know the story of King Lear, though.

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3978 on: July 09, 2016, 07:36:07 PM »
Leah, you definitely don't want to end up like King Lear.  Remember, it's a tragedy.

JoanK, I like your notion of the poems talking to Queen Elizabeth.  I can just imagine her reaction to being nagged for an heir to the throne, though.  She used her unmarried state as a powerful political tool, threatening to make alliances by marriage, but never doing so.

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3979 on: July 09, 2016, 07:45:06 PM »
This sonnet definitely seems to be addressed to a man; he's accused of not wanting to marry because, if he dies first, he'll leave a grieving widow.  But a widow has her children for consolation, and if he never marries, the world will be like a barren widow, with no consolation.

Why is Shakespeare urging a man to marry and have children?

Mkaren557

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3980 on: July 09, 2016, 09:15:19 PM »
I wrote this about another sonnet, but it's what I think:
  So I was thinking about why Shakespeare was so insistent that the only way to live on was to have a child. Otherwise Death conquers you and worms become your hair.  The focus in the Renaissance was on the individual rather than society. The goal of life was to "be all you could be,"  become a person who excels in everything.  Perfecting oneself in all areas became a life goal.  So, it follows that one would want his perfect self to live on forever. It also follows that one might become selfish, proud, arrogant with no regard for others.  Shakespeare reminds "him" that in this Sonnet and Sonnets 1-5 that to live on one must
                                      Make sweet some vial; treasure thou some place
                                      With beauty's treasure, ere it be self-kill'd.
This is an interesting contrast to the Middle Ages where one lived to die because that was the only way to get your "reward" - - being in heaven with God.

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3981 on: July 09, 2016, 10:05:32 PM »
JoanK.   
Quote
In spite of the fact that many of these poems are addressed to a man, it has occurred to me that some of these poems might be talking to Queen Elizabeth! The fact that she didn't have an heir must have been of great concern to Englishmen, afraid that at her death, a bloody war of succession would break out.

Heavens forbid, am I the only one that sees Shakespeare addressing a woman?  I sure am glad Joan commented about it might be him talking to Queen Elizabeth who had no heir.  It's okay if I am the only one seeing him speaking of a woman, I rather like seeing it that way.   ;)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3982 on: July 09, 2016, 10:15:42 PM »
Even though S. seems to address many/most of the sonnets to a male, anyone (man or woman) reading them (now or back in the day...) would ALL still hear the same urging to have children,etc. His message is clear, no matter the technicality of who it might be addressed to.

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3983 on: July 09, 2016, 10:21:14 PM »
PatH: you have my attention - I will need to look into King Lear one of these days. (It will be awile though as I am reviewing all the posts from the OVID group. The translation I have is by Rolfe Humphries.)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3984 on: July 10, 2016, 12:07:56 AM »
aaaahhh I'm exhausted - great family visit and filled with all sorts of help - A power spray for the patio - A trimmed and manicured yard and dead branches removed - then cut up all the branches for pickup next week. We spread 7 bags of compost over the areas the sun parched - hand watered the herb garden and pulled weeds - hung curtains, did my cooked lemon trick with 3 pots, laundry caught up and clean sheets on the bed. Paul had a good visit with a neighbor that keeps his eye on me.

I remember doing all this on my own and thought nothing of it. Immediately after they left I took a hot shower and hit the bed for a 'short' nap - oh dear - here it is 9:30 at night after having slept since 5:30  Well for sure no more, 'I don't feel like it'  - I just have to take a daily walk and get some strength back - this is ridiculous.

One piece of drama - the backyard had not been mowed in at least 4 or 5 weeks - since the fawns were born - oh oh oh were they frightened - flying around trying to figure out where to go - they had not been out of the backyard since they were born and of course moms was not around - the one was so beside itself it came crashing into the sliding glass door to the patio not once but twice till we opened the door and that did more to frightened the poor thing but all three left the yard - not only were humans back there but the loud sounds of mower, trimmer, blower, power washer.  Well we shall see how long before they return - there are still some hidyhoe's for them under various bushes and vines but the grass is no longer thick and long to plop down and hide in where ever the mood struck them.

Hadn't thought of that Karen but yes, the medieval was about living for you place in the here after while the Renaissance was about self and self expression.

Says to me the medieval was a lot of grinding work to carve out a life with no time for anything but the basics so there has to be a reward someplace where as comparatively life was fuller with villages, roads, no traipsing across Europe and North Africa to rescue pilgrims and find the Holy Grail battling one group after the other and the Black Plague was no longer decimating the population and most of all governing systems were in place, within land boundaries and the church. There was so much order that folks were now taking on in ships the great seas to see what else was on this earth.  What a contrast...

Leah interesting how when we simply read the Sonnet for enjoyment,  some of us daydream the speaking is addressing a woman and others a man. I bet psychiatrists could have a field day with that difference. And yes, it is all about compelling the subject of the poem to have children.

Bellamarie noted the message as, "...to not waste beauty by not procreating." Like Bellamarie, I too like Joan's suggestion that it was really a message to the Queen - that really fits doesn't it - because for most folks there did not seem to be  much urging required - unless Hollywood is completely depraved along with those writing about the era men seemed to plant their seeds willy nilly when ever and where ever desire struck - maybe it was cupid busy shooting his arrows while hidden in the clouds ;) - so that PatH asks the perfect question - "Why is Shakespeare urging a man to marry and have children?

With all this prolific seed planting, lots of the seeds produced a harvest of children and the only ones whose gardens were behind high walls were upper class women whose family could contain her within their  protective walls so that some women seemed to erect their own walls or barriers - and so to hear urging spoken to a man unless he is the kind that plants his seed than disappears and this is really about taking on the obligation of actually marrying - I thought this line was a wow-strong-over the top statement - "The world will be thy widow and still weep" - the WORLD mind you - wow... come to think on it with all the conflict in the world today what an apt saying, "The world will be thy widow and still weep" - if the world is not weeping I sure am...

Hmm I wonder if the rebut on the Sonnet is saying just that - settle down man and get with the married family-centered program. In other words, his seed planting is loveless - he is simply letting his body rule which is not being responsible to the ensuing child therefore, he is acting murderously shameful.

No love toward others in that bosom sits
    That on himself such murderous shame commits.


Ah and we cannot forget the glorious tragedy, King Lear - have to wonder if that dichotomy is in our soul that we continue to create dualities and there difficulties as King Lear's dilemma rather than easily create  harmonious unity.

Gosh a lot to think about in this days discussion - bits and pieces added that really has the wonderment mill going for us. I wonder this and I wonder that... no unity today but then we are not combining the sweetness of wondering with war either, are we... it is almost easier to wonder rather than have a settled conclusion. Ah so...



   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3985 on: July 10, 2016, 01:35:21 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet X


For shame deny that thou bear'st love to any,
Who for thyself art so unprovident.
Grant, if thou wilt, thou art beloved of many,
But that thou none lovest is most evident;
For thou art so possess'd with murderous hate
That 'gainst thyself thou stick'st not to conspire.
Seeking that beauteous roof to ruinate
Which to repair should be thy chief desire.
O, change thy thought, that I may change my mind!
Shall hate be fairer lodged than gentle love?
Be, as thy presence is, gracious and kind,
Or to thyself at least kind-hearted prove:
    Make thee another self, for love of me,
    That beauty still may live in thine or thee.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RGX5Yh_VbU
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3986 on: July 10, 2016, 12:48:40 PM »
WOW!  It seems Shakespeare is chastising this person about being self indulgent and self loathing.  It appears the person is filled with hatred and Shakespeare is trying to encourage him or inspire him to choose love over hate, or at least be kind hearted.  He then ends with saying to have a child that could live on in love of thine or thee.

It seems all of Shakespeare's sonnets so far really put the importance of procreating. 

I have a friend who was an only son, who could carry on the family name.  All his generations of uncles, grandfathers and father has passed on.  He himself never had a son, only two daughters.  So, when he dies the family name will no longer be carried on.  Seems a bit sad, and I can see why Shakespeare would feel the importance of especially men, to have children hopefully sons, to carry on the family name.  I do know my husband and I were very happy to have our two sons to carry on the Reinhart name, and now our oldest son had a son who will carry it on, hopefully generations to come.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3987 on: July 10, 2016, 07:28:12 PM »
First read and I had much trouble making sense out of "That 'gainst thyself thou stick'st not to conspire." Once I finally figured that out I could get the point being made. In other words I think the sentence means that the person is trying not to hate themselves.

Reading it out-loud and using various words to emphasis is neat - the first two lines sounds as if the speaker is exasperated that the man or woman (can't tell ) is actually loved by many and he, not only, does not love even one other but, has this murderous hate. Wow. Goes on to ask if hate should more important than gentle love. The speaker beseeches, almost to the point of begging that a change is made to love so that beauty can live in both the speaker and the one this Sonnet addresses.

I sure like the look of the snake eyes in the artwork - ha the kind of eyes we see often during evening traffic where there is a turn lane and those trying to jump the line going straight, use the turn lane and when it is our turn to move forward they snake eye you, wanting you to be the one to slow down so they can zoom ahead through the interchange where on the other side we are back to a one lane street. Or some parents use their snake eyes when they see one of their pre teen children about to do something unacceptable.

This sonnet as I read it (just my impression, not right or wrong) does not seem to be as heavy a hand hammering as you say Bellamarie "...the importance of procreating" it does seem to be more about again, as you say Bellamarie "...encourage him or inspire him to choose love over hate, or at least be kind hearted."

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3988 on: July 10, 2016, 09:01:16 PM »
Sometimes Shakespeare's language gets in the way.  The two footnotes in my book help a bit.  "Stick'st" means "hesitatatest", and "roof"means "body".  I think that Shakespeare is indeed arguing against hate, but it's tied in to procreating.  He's saying that yes, people love you, but obviously you can't love them back, since you don't even love yourself enough to perpetuate yourself in children.

I bet that as we go along, we'll get very skilled at working through the language barrier.  It's not trivial.  The conventions of language were different then, and English was rapidly evolving as a language, so that words changed in meaning even during Shakespeare's life and certainly many have changed meaning since then.  Barb, your suggestion to read the sonnet aloud was very helpful.

I'm eager for him to get on to whatever message is next.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3989 on: July 11, 2016, 03:02:48 AM »
For heaven's sake I would never have guessed roof meant body - interesting. Who is the publisher PatH on the copy of the Sonnets you own?

Interesting about reading these Sonnets aloud - looking on Youtube to find a link there are all manner's of folks who read these Sonnets - some with heavy British or Scottish accents and so many reading with this exaggerated drama - to me they sound rather silly - reminds me of kids in the 8th grade who have yet to see poetry as a comfortable read using words in a way to admire rather than, using words to tell a story so the words are secondary.

I think it is fun to see how these sentences change meaning by emphasizing certain words or with various inflections of the voice... the more I read this way the more I am amazed at the assumptions we all make reading the written word - I wonder if there are more words used to explain how a word in the sentence is said or what is means than is necessary rather than used less words to just share the bones of the story. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3990 on: July 11, 2016, 03:03:50 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XI


As fast as thou shalt wane, so fast thou growest
In one of thine, from that which thou departest;
And that fresh blood which youngly thou bestow'st
Thou mayst call thine when thou from youth convertest.
Herein lives wisdom, beauty and increase:
Without this, folly, age and cold decay:
If all were minded so, the times should cease
And threescore year would make the world away.
Let those whom Nature hath not made for store,
Harsh featureless and rude, barrenly perish:
Look, whom she best endow'd she gave the more;
Which bounteous gift thou shouldst in bounty cherish:
   She carved thee for her seal, and meant thereby
   Thou shouldst print more, not let that copy die.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMgvrG-OSGk
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3991 on: July 11, 2016, 12:21:14 PM »
I had to look up the puzzling phrase "made for store" - it means 'made for breeding.'
Let those whom Nature hath not made for store,
Harsh featureless and rude, barrenly perish:


S's use of the word 'Nature' as that which "hath not made" or "best endow'd" is thought-provoking. Post-Darwinian times might color these lines as suggestive of 'survival of the fittest'. And depending on emphasis, the words: "Let those whom..." could come across as declaration or  condemnation of those perceived as the "harsh featureless and rude." In certain periods of history this would be thought a dangerous point of view.

Apparently even Nature sometimes falls short of Shakespeare's mark & measure by bestowing less bountious breeding characteristics on some of her "copies."
     

JoanK

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3992 on: July 11, 2016, 04:33:00 PM »
LEAH: " In certain periods of history this would be thought a dangerous point of view." Absolutely. The Eugenics movement in this country caused a lot of needless suffering at the turn of the century. But I'm suspecting that Shakespeare hadn't given it that much thought.

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3993 on: July 11, 2016, 04:50:19 PM »
Right, JoanK - perhaps I would have been clearer if I had said that in later historical periods it became a dangerous POV. Hope it did not sound like I was pointing the Eugenics finger at the Bard!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3994 on: July 11, 2016, 09:36:58 PM »
You have to wonder though - it may not have been out and out a knowledge of and practice of Eugenics but for sure you had to be among a certain class in order the marry 'well' - there are many cousins marrying each other and the good will between nations was more about the marriage between representatives of the two nations. So that is keeping pure a certain line of heritage that is also preserving a certain smarts so to speak - dumb people are not typical of the ruling class - even the successful knights who became land barons and who built castles were not the average run of the mill archer or one of the throng that ran and threw spears or rocks or carried swords in battle.

Also to ponder how this value on reproducing is an unconscious value today that is at the core of many of our attitudes and social issues around women and abortion and child care and the feminist issues -

I've a friend who wrote a book that is receiving a lot of attention about aging women who chose not to have children - recently was published in Japan as well as a bunch of European nations and of course here in the states. http://aralyn.com/ and this site as well http://aralyn.com/love-in-the-sixties/ and this really fun article in our local newspaper http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/local/kelso-aralyn-hughes-is-austins-queen-of-weird/nh3fk/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3995 on: July 11, 2016, 10:00:33 PM »
PatH.,  I see you and I tend to agree on what we see Shakespeare aiming at. I have truly never read any of his works until now so it gives me a sigh of relief to see I'm not too far off on trying to understand him.  This one (Sonnet X) actually seemed a bit simple, he is telling him to love thyself, and if you can't love others at least be kind to them.

Quote
Sometimes Shakespeare's language gets in the way.

I could not have said it any better!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3996 on: July 12, 2016, 12:52:02 AM »
the words are a challenge aren't they Bellamarie - but together we seem to be muddling through - nice to have folks look up some of these words for us - the definition in today's language gives a slightly different slant to the poem doesn't it.

I particularly like the idea stated in Sonnet XI  -

Herein lives wisdom, beauty and increase:
Without this, folly, age and cold decay:


I like that within us there is wisdom, beauty and increase - and yes, I can see how without those ingrained aspects of our spirit, life would be nothing but folly, aging and finally the cold grave.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3997 on: July 12, 2016, 12:53:37 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet XII


When I do count the clock that tells the time,
And see the brave day sunk in hideous night;
When I behold the violet past prime,
And sable curls all silver'd o'er with white;
When lofty trees I see barren of leaves
Which erst from heat did canopy the herd,
And summer's green all girded up in sheaves
Borne on the bier with white and bristly beard,
Then of thy beauty do I question make,
That thou among the wastes of time must go,
Since sweets and beauties do themselves forsake
And die as fast as they see others grow;
   And nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence
   Save breed, to brave him when he takes thee hence.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ3iEUKlW-Y

Traditional 17th C. Over the Hills and Far Away]/b]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MR7VihPm2E&list=PL5E34C92D6498E16C&index=18
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3998 on: July 12, 2016, 03:09:45 AM »
Whoa....in Sonnet Xl  Shakespeare seems to really be saying if you don't marry and have children you simply decay and die.  He seems to think that the world would eventually die off if everyone decided to not have children, which of course I suppose makes sense.  Generations would die off.  But then he goes on to say that the ugly and poor should die, and that nature gave beauty to some so they would carry on the beauty and wisdom through their children.

A rather harsh sentiment if I do say so myself.   Feels like our Shakespeare may feel only certain classes should reproduce and let the less fortunate decay and die.  Gives me chills to think he could mean this.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Mkaren557

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #3999 on: July 12, 2016, 08:57:40 AM »
Sonnet XII
     Having grown up believing that when I die, my soul will live on, I have been trying to put myself in a place where I believe who I am will die.  Knowing my body will decay in the ground, I can see how, if I lived my life believing that all that I am will be gone, I can see how I might see having children in a different light.  The images of death in the poem are so strong : day passing into night, barren trees, sheaves of dead grass placed on a bier. My life will not end if "live" on through my children.  Since "nothing 'gainst Time's scythe can make defence," without children, my life will have been wasted.  Shakespeare, according to tradition was born in 1564, which would make him about in his early thirties when he wrote this sonnet.  I wonder if he is the young man in Sonnets 1-17?