Author Topic: Poetry Page  (Read 725169 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4360 on: August 31, 2016, 03:32:09 AM »
Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets


2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.



April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.


A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.


Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Link: First Post of Our Discussion on July 1


Shakespeare Anniversary Links
Discussion Leaders: Barb
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4361 on: August 31, 2016, 03:42:38 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXII



Sin of self-love possesseth all mine eye,
And all my soul and all my every part;
And for this sin there is no remedy,
It is so grounded inward in my heart.
Methinks no face so gracious is as mine,
No shape so true, no truth of such account;
And for myself mine own worth do define,
As I all other in all worths surmount.
But when my glass shows me myself indeed,
Beated and chopp'd with tann'd antiquity,
Mine own self-love quite contrary I read;
Self so self-loving were iniquity.
   'Tis thee, myself, that for myself I praise,
   Painting my age with beauty of thy days. 

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 62
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REoIZtmtXkc
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4362 on: August 31, 2016, 12:11:00 PM »
Sonnet LXII

'Tis thee, myself, that for myself I praise,
   Painting my age with beauty of thy days.


It appears Shakespeare is seeing himself through the beauty of his young love.  Then he looks into the mirror and sees his real self, not quite the beauty he expected.  I can relate to this, I have a granddaughter who is going to be twenty-one in a few days.  She and I have been so close since her birth.  When I am with her she just radiates of youth, life and beauty which I feel casts onto myself.  I do feel beautiful in her presence, and yet when I look into my mirror the reality of being a grandma is reflecting back at me.  My sweet eight year old grandson said to me the other day, "Nonnie, you don't look like a grandma, you look like a Mom."  I said, "Why thank you Zak."  He said, "No really Nonnie you do look like a Mom, you don't have hardly any wrinkles at all like grandmas."  God bless his heart!  So, getting back to Shakespeare's sonnet, I can very well see how being around love and youth, can make you feel beautiful and youthful.  I really like the last two lines in this sonnet, I like the idea of painting myself with a brush of another's beauty. 

Again Barb, I LOVE the picture you chose for this sonnet.  It reminds me of when I was a Brownie Leader and we had the mirror for the Investiture Ceremony .   

“Twist me and turn me and show me the elf. I look in the water and saw . . . “
The Brownie looks into the mirror and says “Myself”.




“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4363 on: August 31, 2016, 05:45:15 PM »
Isn't it amazing Bellamaire how as we age we do not age within - I've finally accepted I was old when I turned 80 and it is still a shock when I look in the mirror because by and large I do not think of myself as old and easily get quite annoyed with myself when this hurts or that does not function as easily as it did when I was 40 or 50 or even as when I was 70 - most often I end up scolding myself saying things like - this will not do - no this is not going to be, that is for old people - I still have a difficult time accepting that I have arrived at being old - looking in the mirror is always a surprise. As the art work shows, I'm unconscious of my age, till I see the reflection of an old person staring back - everytime it is such a jolt it takes me a minute to straighten out what's true or not, what is the year or often in the morning I'll question if I am still dreaming.

And here you have this almost out of body experience because you have your beloved granddaughter that makes you feel young as if her qualities of youthful energy and her beauty fall like a veil over you. Your eight year old grand sounds precious - reading your experiences with your grands suggests that we just need to surround ourselves with not only youth and beauty but enliven our homes and create a beautiful environment so that we continue to live to our fullest.   

Amazing such a little everyday happening becomes to topic of Shakespeare's poem that here over 400 years later and we still experience a similar happening - I like the topic of this Sonnet so I think it will stick with me - need to make an effort to remember the number of this Sonnet and at least one line.

I thought of the Beated and chopp'd line but decided not the line I need to remember and maybe use as a motto for a bit is the last line - Painting my age with beauty of thy days.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4364 on: September 01, 2016, 12:52:34 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXIII



Against my love shall be, as I am now,
With Time's injurious hand crush'd and o'er-worn;
When hours have drain'd his blood and fill'd his brow
With lines and wrinkles; when his youthful morn
Hath travell'd on to age's steepy night,
And all those beauties whereof now he's king
Are vanishing or vanish'd out of sight,
Stealing away the treasure of his spring;
For such a time do I now fortify
Against confounding age's cruel knife,
That he shall never cut from memory
My sweet love's beauty, though my lover's life:
   His beauty shall in these black lines be seen,
   And they shall live, and he in them still green.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 63
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKeFj5URmbc
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4365 on: September 01, 2016, 09:56:37 AM »
I can feel the melancholy in this poem - to be king of a youthful morn that is vanishing or vanish'd out of sight - not an erupt end but a slow vanishing of assets - like a creek slowly drying up over the summer where as in spring it supported so much life and vegetation. At least with a creek drying you know it will be renewed with the next rainstorm or rainy season where as in life, when physical assets  vanish they are gone with no return.

I've been feeling that, not about physical beauty or ability, as the lessening of exuberance to start a project and how eagerly I had in the past started so many projects and read so many books that the treasure I have tucked in my memory have drawn lines in my thinking and the projects are remembered more for the way and hours of work rather than for the outcome.

This Sonnet took a few readings outloud to really get the message - defiantly about a 'he' - His beauty however, I am still struggling to get something out of those last two lines. When I read them separately they make perfect sense however, when I read them with the entire poem I get caught in words and thoughts and the last two lines are not exactly summing up the intent of the poem for me which is typically the job of those last two lines.

Well maybe coming on it fresh later today... till later...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4366 on: September 01, 2016, 11:00:09 AM »
Barb, I agree, I think Sonnet LXII is going to stay with me.  I am going to type the last two lines, print it out and put it on my fridge.

Sonnet LXIII

Against my love shall be, as I am now,

His beauty shall in these black lines be seen,
   And they shall live, and he in them still green.


Eeeekkkk..... this sonnet is a bit dark.  He is speaking of when time will do to his youthful love the same as it has done to him.  He decides he will not allow the changes to rob him of seeing his love's beauty any other way than it is now, so he will write these words to keep his youthful beauty alive forever.

It is interesting how Shakespeare seems to speak so much of the outward beauty and wanting to preserve it.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4367 on: September 01, 2016, 11:17:24 AM »
That is interesting isn't Bellamarie - I wonder since he is a playwrite and producer he would be conscious of outward beauty which is what allows his discretion full sway when he is choosing actors for parts - Thinking on it, all this youth and beauty within a 'he' - really fits since all the parts were played by men and any young man playing the part of a women had to have finer features and be beautiful to keep the play from becoming a comedy of deception.

All in all though don't you find it rather easy to see these Sonnets as a metaphor to other aspects of our life. That sense of universality is probably why his work continues to be read and studied.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4368 on: September 01, 2016, 11:55:11 PM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXIV



When I have seen by Time's fell hand defac'd
The rich-proud cost of outworn buried age;
When sometime lofty towers I see down-razed
And brass eternal, slave to mortal rage;
When I have seen the hungry ocean gain
Advantage on the kingdom of the shore,
And the firm soil win of the wat'ry main,
Increasing store with loss, and loss with store;
When I have seen such interchange of state,
Or state itself confounded to decay;
Ruin hath taught me thus to ruminate --
That Time will come and take my love away.
   This thought is as a death, which cannot choose
   But weep to have that which it fears to lose.   

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 64
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9OUfmlH61I
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4369 on: September 02, 2016, 10:09:09 AM »
Sonnet LXIV

Ughhh..... he seems to have returned back to his dark place.  The sonnet made me think of the great flood in Genesis in the Bible, where all things are being destroyed.  I wonder if the rest of his sonnets continue with his anguish and obsession of this lost love?  That's a long time for a person to spend his days longing for someone who he may never really had in the first place. 

Yes, Barb, these sonnets are clearly words and images of today's world as well.  How many people besides scholars, professors or English Lit teachers do you think bother reading Shakespeare today?  My guess is not many, I think the artists today who sing of these love longings hold the attention of the people today.  It's interesting in the book I am reading "....And Ladies of the Club" which takes place in 1868 and beyond, one of the female characters writes poems, and a male friend who teaches music, asks her if he could put her poems to music.  Do you suppose poetry put to music can be more attractive, than simply reading words as difficult as Shakespeare's are and trying to comprehend them?  For me I think I can relate, and feel more emotionally connected to poetry made into a song, ballad, or play. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4370 on: September 02, 2016, 06:07:53 PM »
Not sure either how many read Shakespeare Bellamaire however, he is still a big deal in England with their all out celebration of 400 years since his death - I think his plays have more attendance than reading his Sonnets but then there are few who read, borrow books of poetry or buy poetry books - Our Poetry festival held each April in Austin draws quite a large gathering - usually over a 1,000 but not like the multitude of thousands for SXSW. And so I think the popularity of Shakespeare is as high as ever however, the popularity of poetry and even theater is limited.

A group of us were only talking how the Austin we knew is no longer with so many of our favorite restaurants and shops gone and replaced with a new huge building that accommodates multiples of condos and high dollar leases for commercial which helps of course to raise prices in order for an enterprise to afford the lease. Reminds me of the line in this poem, "When sometime lofty towers I see down-razed" the Austin property razed is not lofty but rather being replaced with lofty.

Time may come to take his love away but from where I sit I can easily say that Time will come to take what I love away.   Yes, we do weep inside fearful that what we love we will lose and yet, life is birth and death and still we weep - memory keeps them in a special place but memory is not a living breathing actionable experience is it.

I do like a mighty wave though - like to see them and be near them - observing them I never think of the grinding off the wave is doing to rock, sand or earth - I never have felt fearful of a large crashing wave although I have not been where a tsunami came ashore or at sea during a storm where waves crashed over a vessel. I do prefer to think of death as a large wave crashing over me versus a dark figure holding a scythe creeping up on me and leading by the hand - rrrr chills - my best fantasy is a golden chariot speeding in having me on board as with great excitement, a crack of the whip and off we go flying in an adventure that pierces the sun. Haha what is that a quickening of the heart with a high fever to the end... at least none of this sneaking around stuff...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4371 on: September 02, 2016, 07:17:47 PM »
I don't care too much for high waves, my daughter, son in law, sister, cousin and friends live in Florida and hurricane Hermine just came ashore with storm surges as high a 7 ft., flooding homes and streets.  So while a few waves in the ocean are nice to watch, I can do without the large crashing ones.  I worried all day yesterday glued to the weather channel, stayed up til 1:00 a.m. when it hit landfall, and called my daughter first thing this morning.  Luckily they only got an enormous amount of wind and rain but no damage to their home or neighborhood.  I have had people posting aerial videos of places that are destroyed from the flooding.  They certainly need our prayers.

I'm not yet ready to picture or image my death.....  I suppose that could be considered ignore it and it won't ever happen.  :)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4372 on: September 02, 2016, 10:58:54 PM »
Ok with troubles in the workroom I was lucky to get this heading completed - it is going up early so I do not loose it - what follows is tomorrow's Sonnet, Saturday September 3 - good grief the days are flying by - already three days into September - now his sonnets featuring the ravages of time make complete sense...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4373 on: September 02, 2016, 10:59:10 PM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXV


Since brass, nor stone, nor earth, nor boundless sea,
But sad mortality o'er-sways their power,
How with this rage shall beauty hold a plea,
Whose action is no stronger than a flower?
O, how shall summer's honey breath hold out
Against the wreckful siege of battering days,
When rocks impregnable are not so stout,
Nor gates of steel so strong, but Time decays?
O fearful meditation! where, alack,
Shall Time's best jewel from Time's chest lie hid?
Or what strong hand can hold his swift foot back?
Or who his spoil of beauty can forbid?
   O, none, unless this miracle have might,
   That in black ink my love may still shine bright. 

William Shakespeare Sonnet 65
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRjja5_8tmY
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4374 on: September 03, 2016, 04:38:59 PM »
Well, yesterday, as Bellamarie said, he really was  in his dark place, afraid even to enjoy the present with his love because he's so sad that it will inevitably be taken away.  Today he lightens just a little, remembering again that he can make his love last forever in his writing, the only way to cheat time's ravages.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4375 on: September 04, 2016, 12:44:36 AM »
"remembering again that he can make his love last forever in his writing," Seems so doesn't it Pat - he really had an expectation didn't he that writing lasts or at least his writing would last forever or maybe at least last long enough to "cheat time's ravages"

Became more and more curious about Brass - included in both days Sonnets - could find nothing online so turned to my trust Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by JC Cooper and there it is: Brass; Venus, the sensuous world of unregenerate man, embryonic in the womb of the earth.

     Unregenerate: Not spiritually or morally reformed; sinful or unrepentant. Persistently unwilling to accept change; obstinate

Wow this reference to Brass is serious - a persistent, obstinate, basic to the essence of the earth representing; Venus, a morning and evening star representing the union of opposites, she follows the moon and precedes the sun, as the drawer of bow and thrower of javelin she launches the new moon on the sea of night and defends the moon against all monsters of darkness, the passions, desires, creative mother if imagination.

That is a lot all in one word Brass - and the next, Stone is equally saying more than something on the surface that we can mean as timeless.

Stone; durability etc. indestructibility of the Supreme Reality, the cosmos in its entirety, the Philosopher's stone, the supreme quest, the reconciliation of all opposites, unity. Ovid "the bones of mother earth". Associated with the cult of Apollo, associated also with Saturn.

Earth; the corruptible body, with salt as the immortal spirit. The Great Mother, universal generatrix, the Nourisher, the nurse, inexhaustible creativity and sustenance.

Sea; primordial waters, chaos, endless motion, the source of all life, containing all potentials, the sum of all possibilities in magnifications. the unfathomable, the anima mundi, the Great Mother, the sea of life that must be crossed, exoteric knowledge.

And he is saying "sad mortality o'er-sways their power" Sounds like he is suggesting Love is the source of all and the power of Brass, Stone, Earth and Sea is wiped away with our mortality - lots of words, an entire Sonnet of words to say, the essence of life is love and within his black ink, love is timeless. His love could even represent a person but it is still love and only a miracle could change the swift boot of time - the ravages of time appear as the mitigator of power, recognized among the living as the powers represented by Brass, Stone, Earth and Sea. 

This sonnet can sure be read on several levels can't it...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4376 on: September 04, 2016, 01:09:56 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXVI


Tir'd with all these, for restful death I cry,
As, to behold desert a beggar born,
And needy nothing trimm'd in jollity,
And purest faith unhappily forsworn,
And guilded honour shamefully misplaced,
And maiden virtue rudely strumpeted,
And right perfection wrongfully disgraced,
And strength by limping sway disabled,
And art made tongue-tied by authority,
And folly (doctor-like) controlling skill,
And simple truth miscall'd simplicity,
And captive good attending captain ill:
   Tired with all these, from these would I be gone,
   Save that, to die, I leave my love alone.

William Shakespeare Sonnet 66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtAhmM1JJak
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4377 on: September 04, 2016, 10:24:02 AM »
This one gives us a change in sound, to emphasize its message.  After two lines stating his weariness and longing for death, look at the next ten lines.  They're the same iambic pentameter as the other sonnets, but they sound different.  They all start with and, and have the same two-part structure, and are quite regular.  So we get a stronger rhythm than usual, pounding, repetitive, a series of hammer-blows driving home how everything has turned to ashes in the poet's mind--faith abandoned, honor lost, etc.  In line thirteen, he repeats how tired of it all he is, wants to die.  But wait! He can't die, he would leave his love!  I'm not sure if that's a happy change of thought or not.  What do you think?

That's a particularly apt picture.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4378 on: September 04, 2016, 11:04:38 AM »
OH, Oh, oh "pounding, repetitive, a series of hammer-blows driving home how everything has turned to ashes in the poet's mind--faith abandoned, honor lost," he sure does sear our psyche doesn't he Pat - you can hear him mentally pounding in tune with his heartbeat the futility of it all. 

Your description of a series of hammer-blows reminds me of saying a litany -
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ have mercy on us.
Christ hear us
Christ graciously hear us.
Mother of Christ, pray for us.
Mother of divine grace, pray for us.
Mother most pure, pray for us.
Mother most chaste, pray for us.
Mother inviolate, pray for us.
Mother undefiled, pray for us.
Mother most amiable, pray for us.

I could hardly read today's Sonnet more than the one time - I immediately went into a note of irony or sarcasm - wanted to protect myself from the assault of cheerless desolation - after reading I just said to myself - depression , depression, thou name art depression. Hehehe in fact when I did a search for an appropriate graphic that is what I looked for, a photo depicting depression.

Thank goodness the sun is out today and having a different slant it is a softer look rather than, the early morning sun that usually looks like a blacksmith has pop opened the door to a blast furnace - for sure the new season is upon us and the sun definitely looks like a fire that was banked and glowing red than the searing bright yellow and gold of summer.

They say to rid your system of any negative it takes 10 positives - In fact come to think of it, we did read one of Shakespeare's Sonnets that mentioned happiness - haha maybe he just needs a good night's sleep and with all his dreaming he has not had a good restful sleep.

But here is what we read earlier Sonnet XXVIII
How can I then return in happy plight,
That am debarr'd the benefit of rest?
When day's oppression is not eased by night,
But day by night, and night by day, oppress'd?
And each, though enemies to either's reign,
Do in consent shake hands to torture me;
The one by toil, the other to complain
How far I toil, still farther off from thee.
I tell the day, to please them thou art bright
And dost him grace when clouds do blot the heaven:
So flatter I the swart-complexion'd night,
When sparkling stars twire not thou gild'st the even.
But day doth daily draw my sorrows longer
And night doth nightly make grief's strength seem stronger.
Hmm even in this he is not exactly what I would call happy, content or cheerful - he still sounds as if he has the weight of the world on his shoulders but here he is saying he is not complaining.

Which by the way if you are not in the habit of listening to the Sonnet reading linked at the bottom, this rendition is backed by a C major largo Vivaldi played on pipes and the accompanying photos are quite moving.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4379 on: September 05, 2016, 12:59:14 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXVII


Ah, wherefore with infection should he live,
And with his presence grace impiety,
That sin by him advantage should achieve,
And lace itself with his society?
Why should false painting imitate his cheek,
And steal dead seeing of his living hue?
Why should poor beauty indirectly seek
Roses of shadow, since his rose is true?
Why should he live, now Nature bankrupt is,
Beggar'd of blood to blush through lively veins?
For she hath no exchequer now but his,
And, proud of many, lives upon his gains.
   O, him she stores, to show what wealth she had
   In days long since, before these last so bad.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 67
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvcbwxQ1nU0
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4380 on: September 05, 2016, 09:46:04 AM »
Barb, 
Quote
They say to rid your system of any negative it takes 10 positives

I remember a quote Dr. Phil Mcgraw says to parents who are negative to their children,  "It takes 1,000 ‘atta boys’ to erase one ‘you’re an idiot."

Shakespeare is really overdoing the depression, woe is me, and how exquisitely beautiful he sees his youthful love, it is wearing thin with me, and it may just take the remainder of his sonnets to gain back favor with me.   

Sonnet LXVI

Tired with all these, from these would I be gone,
  Save that to die, I leave my love alone.


He almost comes over to me as narcissistic.  Thinking nothing is as it should be according to HIM, and he would like to just die and not deal with it, except for the fact he would be leaving his love alone.  HELLOOOOOO....  his love has left him alone!

Sonnet LXVII

Why should he live, now Nature bankrupt is,

This is yet a continuation of his rambling on about how nothing is as beautiful as his youthful love, and even if Mother Nature dares to change him like she happens to do to all, he will never see anything but beauty.  I appreciate Shakespeare undying love for this youthful love, I appreciate how he is able to express himself in his poems, but who ever compiled these sonnets and placed them in this order must not have realized the monotony of them in this particular order.  He is repeating himself over and over and over again.  I was thinking how miserable he must have been all these days writing these sonnets of his lost love and wonder if it lifted his spirits to write about his idea of the never ending beauty he will have of this lost love.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4381 on: September 05, 2016, 12:10:13 PM »
Yes, LXVI is really a downer isn't it Bellamarie - considering all the fear and sadness in his life I tend to give the guy a break - his beloved and only son dies at age 11, his uncle, a Catholic is quartered, in order to apply his craft he must live where there is patronage which meant leaving his wife and children in Strafford upon Avon and movign to London. Having been already called out by the monarchy for his writing he had to write with caution and suppress his creativity, plus he is working in the shadow of the very authority that so horrifically kills known Catholics that included the uncle and then he has been under a cloud since childhood. I forgot the details but his father was not of sterling character and during Will's childhood he lived with the gossip of his father forced from his position - and so I see a lot on this man's plate that appears to be feelings he brings to his craft writing these poems.

Shakespeare's tragic plays are epic to this day and if these poems are tragedies than the speaker, as hero would have a tragic flaw that circumstances beyond his control, often supernatural in nature, would bring to a head that would lead to his down fall -

Out of curiosity I googled for Shakespeare poems about happiness - there just is not much - the poems including happiness are laced with loss or sadness, there are a few plays with silliness but I have not read the comedies to learn how he expresses happiness, if at all - when a play ends with a 'they-lived-happily-ever-after' scene that is all it takes to be considered a comedy -

I'm thinking Shakespeare's comedies are based on a comedy of errors and mistaken identity that was typical of the seventeenth on up through the twentieth century with the likes of Noel Coward. The only difference Noel Coward, as did Oscar Wilde before him, brought comedy into the drawing room and did not depend upon fairies and fake horse's heads.

But as you say, he sure like a drum beat knows how to describe the lose of a loved one - regardless if the loss is a woman, man, child or even the patronage of a queen that is described as beauty - we'll never know and Shakespeare scholars have been quibbling over the object of these poems for a few hundred years - and so the Sonnets are downers - about loss that, as you point out, so many following one another sure puts a reader's spirit in the dumps.

I think what is amazing to me is how many who sound like they know what they are talking about still label these Sonnets as love poems - hmm now that we have been reading them and we have read over a third I just do not see it - Do you Bellamarie? Makes me wonder about some of these so called professional pundits.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4382 on: September 05, 2016, 12:52:49 PM »
Ok today's Sonnet - I'm not reading it as a part of the drum beat of loss of a lover that we've been reading the past days - I'm getting an almost political question of why should a man have to live amongst corruption. I could not escape the word 'exchequer' which is more a government collection of money or the auditing of money than a personal collection of money - if Shakespeare was attempting to show a woman's dependence on a certain man for her financial support there would be other words that would be more telling but he uses 'exchequer' - and so from that it was a case of rereading -

Each line on this one is an independent thought, adding to the over all - not an incomplete sentence as a continuation of the preceding line - and so, "That sin by him advantage should achieve," whatever his sin, it is an advantage and should achieve something - His sin appears to be his grace - I take as gracefulness or beauty - He is hiding his natural grace, his 'poor' beauty, minimizing his beauty as poor, however, as true as a rose, he is hiding in roses of shadow - Makeup artists still refer to Roses of Shadow when they talk about the color nude - So, he is hiding his natural beauty, his grace, by nullifying it, blending into a colorless nude as if no blood went through his veins that bring his natural coloring which is rose colored. 

To me here is the kicker - "For she hath no exchequer now but his, And, proud of many, lives upon his gains." I think he is talking about how he brings revenue to the queen in both taxes and in his plays support her legal views that no one but Shakespeare, if he is the speaker in this poem, regardless of the many she is proud, he brings her what others do not or cannot. Therefore, she is living well because of the gain she receives from his writing.

I get with the first part he is saying his writing is not from blood rushing through his veins but, nullified to a nude to satisfy the monarchy. I see this Sonnet as a plea for either forgiveness or begging for approval to continue after he said something that was not supporting her... "before these last so bad."

Seems to me I vaguely remember there was a problem of his being cast aside because of some war or something - would have to look it up but, I remember the Michael Wood PBS series showing something about him seeking favor again to be able to perform for the queen because at the time no play could be performed for the public until is was seen and approved by the queen.

Anyhow that is my take on this poem...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4383 on: September 05, 2016, 08:00:27 PM »
I saw the "she" as Mother Nature he is referring to.
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4384 on: September 06, 2016, 12:21:33 AM »
Could be - we all get something from these poems as they hit something within us - As I say, for me the word exchequer said something greater than a relationship with an average person and so that was how I saw it in another light.

If she is nature - and 'nature' is metaphorically the national treasury - it could be... The Brits do and always have set great store in their natural surroundings so it really could work.   

Exchequer: noun, a royal or national treasury.
        British
        the bank account into which tax receipts and other public monies are paid; the funds of the British government.

        British historical
        the former government office responsible for collecting revenue and making payments on behalf of the sovereign, auditing official accounts, and trying legal cases relating to revenue.

Again, a poem hits all of us differently bringing to the surface something from within - poems are not just telling stories as other literature so a poem can be very individualized.

Now a long poem we know is to tell a story but even the long poem is not a straight narrative - yes, many say the rhyme and meter is to help memorize and many other explanations about the structure however, it sings to our soul and brain in a way that music cannot reach and helps to paint pictures in our heads as well as, causes us to see relationships with words.

The Sonnet is not a long poem and the only thing I've ever read that it's structure accomplishes is that the last two lines either sum up or most often rebuke everything said in the preceding 12 lines. And yes, 'she' could work as nature - let's look at it - we know that between each coma is a thought.

O,
him she stores,
to show what wealth she had In days long since,
before these last so bad.


The two proceeding lines work - the question then is do these two lines. Is Nature all of nature or is it his nature - is the blood...

Why should he live,
now Nature bankrupt is,
Beggar'd of blood to blush through lively veins?


To verify the meaning of Beggar'd found this...

"Marc Antony's friend Enobarbus describes Cleopatra as he and Antony first saw her, sailing in pageant down the river Cydnus. While words might do justice to her barge, the queen herself "beggar'd all description." The verb "to beggar" dates only from the sixteenth century, and originally meant "to make a beggar of, to impoverish." In its figurative use here, "to beggar" means "to exhaust the resources of": to describe Cleopatra as she sailed by in her burnished throne is impossible because language is too poor."

And so the entire Sonnet could be a metaphor suggesting there is an unseen vein of blood in Nature that is too impossible to explain 'because language is too poor' - that Nature has been bankrupted and that affects the rose since, blood in a vein of Nature gives roses their color. It really could work... but then one thing more - the rose is the symbol of the Tudors and we know from an earlier Sonnet it is the wild, single petaled rose that is very pale in color - hmm

Wait, I am being logical - nope a poem provides an emotional response and so we each see this poem saying something different.


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4385 on: September 06, 2016, 12:48:20 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXVIII


Thus is his cheek the map of days outworn,
When beauty liv'd and died as flowers do now,
Before the bastard signs of fair were borne,
Or durst inhabit on a living brow;
Before the golden tresses of the dead,
The right of sepulchres, were shorn away,
To live a second life on second head;
Ere beauty's dead fleece made another gay.
In him those holy antique hours are seen,
Without all ornament, itself and true,
Making no summer of another's green,
Robbing no old to dress his beauty new;
   And him as for a map doth Nature store,
   To show false Art what beauty was of yore.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFvkRB5hzDo
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4386 on: September 06, 2016, 08:45:26 AM »
My book has a footnote that helps make this poem clearer.  "Line 3: signs of fair, imitations of beauty, here specifically, wigs.

So what he's saying, is that now the fashion is to try to improve beauty with wigs (often made with the hair of the dead) but his beloved (clearly a man in this one) scorns this, and shows his true, natural beauty, a model of the real, not the artificial.

For me, sometimes the archaic language gets in the way of the meaning and makes me have to work very hrd on the poems.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4387 on: September 06, 2016, 09:58:49 AM »
Ha his strong language sure had me sit up and take notice - looks like Pat you got the meaning and how he was not in favor of this practice - Lucky Shakespeare had his own hair even if it appears in the few paintings we have that his crown was growing very thin - thin or not, he at least had some hair and so he was not feeling this need to follow fashion.

I laughed out loud reading this line "Ere beauty's dead fleece made another gay." Thinking of all these middle aged men as projecting gaiety - in the many paintings they all look like they are self aggrandizing to me and the few historical movies I have seen of this time they look like they are looking down their noses at everyone - and the makeup and beauty spots - boy have times changed - their fashion sure does not seem attractive but then, I am sure they would see us all as dull as a wet plaster on a new cut. 

Oh you said it Pat the language is a challenge - I do not have an annotated version but so far Googling a word has worked giving me the old definition each time. Saw a PBS drama depicting the love story between Henry and Anne - they were talking in the same vernacular as we are reading - amazing how it all rolled off their tongues and I realized how natural it was for them to communicate in this old version of English.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4388 on: September 06, 2016, 10:19:17 AM »
After reading it 3 or 4 times, I understood and concurred with his preference for True beauty as opposed to False - or artificial, as Pat said. Imagine if the poet were confronted with a commercial touting plastic surgery! Ha!

I may be dropping in and out for awhile; my recent absence has been, in part, due to an abundance of zucchini, and being seduced by too many books, the biggest being Mary Beard's Rome Tome: "SPQR." History has always been difficult read for me and it is slow going.

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4389 on: September 06, 2016, 10:46:26 AM »
Sonnet LXVIII

Yes, I see Shakespeare wanting to articulate on his love's natural beauty, and point out how other's resort to fake things such as wigs to help enhance themselves, but his love needs nothing of the sort.  His love has natural beauty.

Lo and behold the artificial enhancers bring The Kardashians to mind.  That entire family of females has brought a whole new meaning to this sonnet of fakeness, and vanity. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4390 on: September 06, 2016, 11:11:24 AM »
Ha love it Bellamarie - the Kardashians - they sure have affected or maybe its infected many with their elevated performance of the fake...

Leah zucchini??!!?? What do you do with an abundance of zucchini that evidently takes time whatever it is you do - not cucumbers but zucchini - cucumbers I know means time for pickling but zucchini? And it would be a treat if you would drop into the library and share what you are reading - sounds like you found a bevy of good books - glad you popped in -
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4391 on: September 06, 2016, 12:57:15 PM »
Can someone explain what work the word 'bastard' does in line 3?

Oh, let's see: Zucchini fritters or pancakes, Z & blueberry bundt cakes, Z Au gratin casserole, and today 6 dozen Z & Oatmeal cookies. Next year I will vote for more rhubarb and less Z!! Also tried patty pan (flying saucer) squash for the first time. Then somehow I ended up with 2 large bunches of organic broccoli and cauliflower that demanded prompt attention when, serendipitously, I was listening to a show on WI Public Radio just when they described how to make a roasted B & C Soup. Boy, that was good!

Earlier this year I found Teresa Greenway's excellent online instructions w/ accompanying videos and learned to make a sourdough starter. The bread gets better and better. 🤗

Soon the Latin classes will begin, and I am finally making discernible progress on my first quilt project - it is really a quilt top to cover up the falling-apart one on a Martha Stewart bedspread. A friend of mine raises sheep and showed our knitter's group how to Pick the fleece clean, wash it, comb and process it, and to top it off, she even made each of us a spindle from a dowel and a used CD so we could practice spinning the wool into yarn. That was great fun! Am also learning to groom our English Springer Spaniel plus we practice donning her winter boots so we won't have any excuses for not going for winter walks.




PatH

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4392 on: September 06, 2016, 02:04:45 PM »
"bastard" modifies "signs of fair", which means imitations of beauty, in this case wigs.  So he's calling them bastard wigs, referring to the fact that they aren't legitimate beauty.

I didn't work that out until you asked the question, Leah.  This sonnet almost seems like more trouble than it's worth, but at least it's good practice for the other ones.

Leah, can I come to dinner at your house? ;)

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4393 on: September 06, 2016, 05:15:54 PM »
Well, you make it sound easy, Pat! Thanks for flipping the switch:) 💡.
Dinner would be great, Pat!

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4394 on: September 06, 2016, 05:33:54 PM »
Leah, you sound like one very busy lady.  I'm feeling lazy and exhausted just reading all your recipes and activities.  I'm imagining how wonderful your home smells with all those zucchini baked goods!  Mmmmmm.....  Since my hubby retired he has gotten into baking and I love all the aromas that come from my kitchen.  I bake at Christmas time with the grandkids, but not much throughout the year. 

Pat, I agree, Shakespeare goes such a long way around with his words, but I suppose back then everyone did as well.

Barb, you make me laugh out loud with Kardashians, "infecting".  They have brought a whole new meaning to Shakespeare's "bastard" imitation of beauty.  😱😱
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4395 on: September 06, 2016, 06:01:36 PM »
Wow - now that ended up being worth it - at least I thought so - so used to hearing folks roll off 'Bastard' when they express their anger so that the word lost all meaning other than the voice of anger - yes, there was a time when some words that have been 'bastardized' had their intended meaning - after reading your post Pat I realized I hadn't heard the word used in its proper sense since I was a kid! And it gave his thought explanation rather than as I read it which only gave it an extra zing.

Well I asked about the zucchini - oh my - did you end up preserving or freezing any of it Leah? One of my favorite ways to eat it along with yellow summer squash is to slice it in with pasta, usually spaghetti, and sauce them both as if one. How were your tomatoes this year? Oh and you have a rhubarb set maturing - reminds me of my grandmother who made stewed rhubarb and black bread her summer breakfast. Between new recipes, garden produce, quilting and preparing for winter walks you sound like you've a Tasha Tudor lifestyle going. When do the trees start to turn in your area?

Ha, I just thought Pat - yep, work... all to read a rant on wigs but Bellamarie you nailed it, how often folks have a similar rant today over the Kardashians - funny...

Thought of that the other day - reading these Sonnets one a day could be a count down to the start of Christmas - here I had grand ideas of using the Sonnet a day idea to walk a new trail each day - well it did not happen - I know, I know I should not give up - there is still 12 weeks which they say is just enough time to see a difference in anything we decide to do. Hmm  giving myself a break - walking trails in 97 and 98 degree heat is not really fun - amazing, it cooled down early this year and the weather says we are in for a colder fall - need to rethink this - Leah all your activity is infectious... thanks. And Bellamarie your mentioning Christmas wow... it will be on us before you know it. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4396 on: September 06, 2016, 10:27:37 PM »
Interesting, on my home page today - I wonder if Shakespeare set the bar as to how to approach a topic - Yeats, born 250 years after Shakespeare died and his poem When You are Old is an echo of these Shakespeare Sonnets about aging. 

    When you are old and grey and full of sleep,
    And nodding by the fire, take down this book,
    And slowly read, and dream of the soft look
    Your eyes had once, and of their shadows deep;

    How many loved your moments of glad grace,
    And loved your beauty with love false or true,
    But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,
    And loved the sorrows of your changing face;

    And bending down beside the glowing bars,
    Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
    And paced upon the mountains overhead
    And hid his face amid a crowd of stars.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4397 on: September 06, 2016, 11:53:08 PM »
Barb, we have had excoriating temps also.  Today the heat index had to be way over 100 degrees.  This summer I started walking in the mornings with my neighbor before the extreme heat each day.  She is a school teacher and is now back in school and now I'm walking with my hubby in the late afternoon with our dog.  He was a mailman with a walking route for forty years before he retired, so he walks at a fast pace.  Phew... I have to struggle to keep up with him.  It's never too late to begin, start when your temps fall a bit.  Yes, before you know it Christmas will be here.  I just put up all my Fall decorations today. 

Pat, I have only ever heard the word bastard used in a foul angry manner,  and only knew it to mean a child born out of wedlock, so you sure taught me something new. 

Yeats is so much easier to understand. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4398 on: September 07, 2016, 01:46:29 AM »
Shakespeare Sonnet LXIX



Those parts of thee that the world's eye doth view,
Want nothing that the thought of hearts can mend:
All tongues (the voice of souls) give thee that due,
Uttering bare truth, even so as foes commend.
Thy outward thus with outward praise is crown'd;
But those same tongues that give thee so thine own
In other accents do this praise confound
By seeing farther than the eye hath shown.
They look into the beauty of thy mind,
And that, in guess, they measure by thy deeds;
Then (churls) their thoughts, although their eyes were kind,
To thy fair flower add the rank smell of weeds:
   But why thy odour matcheth not thy show,
   The solve is this, that thou dost common grow.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 69
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3ltttfxDKo
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Leah

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Re: Poetry Page
« Reply #4399 on: September 07, 2016, 09:40:51 AM »
OUCH! That must have hurt!
Pretty flower on the outside, but a common weed on the inside AND EVERYBODY KNOWS IT because they see what you have been doing and it ' churls' their thoughts about the whole of you.
'Churls' - At first reading I misread this as 'churns' which created an image of curdled thoughts, and it still brought me to the notion of 'ungracious' (churlish) thoughts.
Such pretty, flowery language highlights both the outer beauty AND reveals the noxious internal weedy nature of the target.

Tomatoes were a bust! There was a late frost and even though the lone cherry tomato plant I had got burned (so to speak) and although it produced pretty well, the tomatoes were a depressing maroon color and most of them split on the vine. The few I tried lacked flavor. Interestingly, I didn't think it was going to be viable early on, so I bought an heirloom cherry tomato plant to replace it. Strangely enough they look identical even though they are different varieties. I'm chalking it up to "sympathetic pains." It's just weird.