Author Topic: Poetry Page (Read 725214 times)

bellamarie · « **Reply #4480 on:** September 17, 2016, 02:50:20 PM »

Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets

2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.

April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.

A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.

Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Link: First Post of Our Discussion on July 1

Shakespeare Anniversary Links

Discussion Leaders: Barb

Yes, the sonnets were not intended for public viewing. I wonder what Shakespeare would think of them going public?

I know I have personal writings and would feel it an invasion of my privacy, had someone found them and published them.

Didn't Harper Lee's lawyer give permission to have Go Set A Watchman published while Lee was not of sound mind? There was a big controversy over this because after Lee's sister/caregiver Alice died, the lawyer then took liberties to have the book published. No one will ever know for certain if Lee was of sound enough mind to give her permission. There were quite a few articles about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Set_a_Watchman

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/harper-lee-the-controversy-that-still-surrounds-authors-lost-novel-a6884671.html

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4481 on:** September 17, 2016, 03:00:25 PM »

I like this Leah from the second link you found for us - "The poems are full of contradictions, forming together a kind of anatomy of the shifting moods of love" (Wells 128). The range of styles includes orderly meditations, enigmatic comments on particular situations, hyper-intellectual poetic conceits, tortured introspections. In a sense, the disorder and violent juxtapositionings are appropriate, but they are difficult to read as a sequence."

Ha looks like we are attempting the difficult... wonderful link about the Muse - as we have agreed all along we each bring our own thoughts etc. I was coming from the bit where we know while a school boy Shakespeare read Ovid and probably performed some of the tales as was typical at the time and also considered preparatory to being on stage. And so it was a easy jump for me to see him knowing and relating his muse to the goddess - I wonder if folks in the early seventeenth century thought of the muse with an interpretation of an unknown outside influence? What would really be great in my mind is to read this article again after reading the article you shared a couple of weeks ago about seeing - I'm wondering if there is a crossover and as we are selective in what we see based on our personal history how much of what we think and say is also selective and if so what are the influences... oh dear just writing that overwhelms in the amount of research and study it would take but it is a sincere reactive question...

I guess to read and enjoy the sentiment in today's Sonnet it really doesn't matter if it is a girl or boy he is speaking to or about. The word that caught my eye as if a stage light was highlighting it was the word 'cheek' - I guess some women had full cheeks as probably did some young men - I still think of a male, even an effeminate male as wanting to look lean and so the word cheek reminded me of a young teen or even a child and so I thought of the poem as being written to or about his beloved daughter. He had two but it seems he had a favorite.

Like you Bellamarie the lines that was telling is as you shared -

But now my gracious numbers are decay'd
And my sick Muse doth give another place.
Which I took to mean he was aging (decay'd) and therefore my take was that his Muse has moved on to another who has more life then he - I did not see sick as being unhealthy sick but only as if withered like a decay'd tree ready to be culled.

I grant, sweet love, thy lovely argument
Deserves the travail of a worthier pen,
Self effacing yes, but also, he truly pays homage to a love filled with sweetness - I thought travail was an interesting choice of word since I had associated it with pain - looked it up and yes, pain but more, it is often used to describe suffering the pangs of childbirth; be in labor. I thought how perfect because we often hear of a writer experiencing the pangs of childbirth describing as he brings his creative endeavor to life and thinks of the final contribution as his child.

And yes Leah, as Bellamarie shared, blessings to you - we all have our personal spiritual connection and religious practices and understanding - Poetry seems to tap into the personal and our spiritual connection. Thank you for being so gracious realizing we each represent other views. Here in this discussion we are free to share our thoughts without judgment that we are right or wrong - we are sharing our inner most feelings and reactions to words strung together within a system of 14 lines. We share at times why we think as we do and question what we read and it really has been a wonderful experience as we each bring our unique tone to the daily read.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4482 on:** September 17, 2016, 03:08:29 PM »

Sorry Bellamarie but you got caught

- it happens every so often - the first post of every page is for a heading so we have to get into any post that was caught and add the heading - we try to leave enough space so that your post is still easily seen to be read.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4483 on:** September 17, 2016, 03:32:11 PM »

Ollie, Ollie oxen free!! I've been caught!!! 😝🤓😜😳🙄😁😋

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4484 on:** September 17, 2016, 03:38:26 PM »

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4485 on:** September 18, 2016, 01:54:47 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet LXXX

O, how I faint when I of you do write,
Knowing a better spirit doth use your name,
And in the praise thereof spends all his might,
To make me tongue-tied, speaking of your fame!
But since your worth, wide as the ocean is,
The humble as the proudest sail doth bear,
My saucy bark inferior far to his
On your broad main doth wilfully appear.
Your shallowest help will hold me up afloat,
Whilst he upon your soundless deep doth ride;
Or being wreck'd, I am a worthless boat,
He of tall building and of goodly pride:
Then if he thrive and I be cast away,
The worst was this; my love was my decay.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 80
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5s5LJ1zjp8

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4486 on:** September 18, 2016, 02:08:07 AM »

The ships he is referring to that helps to explain the metaphors inferred...

Bark: A vessel square-rigged on all but the aftermost mast, which is fore-and-aft rigged. Also spelled Barque. Most were three-masted, some were four- or five-masted vessels.

As opposed to a square rigged schooner or the later clipper ships, with all masts equal in size and equal type rigging using square sails.

Where as, still popular at the time was a square rigged wide mainsail on ships used for distant exploration. In spite of their size and deep ocean travel they had a shallower draft compared to a Bark - the Draft the vertical distance between the waterline and the bottom of the hull (keel), with the thickness of the hull included - the more shallow the draft the closer to shore the ship can sail but also, a shallow draft means the ship bobs around during a storm at sea.
A carrack and second its earlier version a caravel

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4487 on:** September 19, 2016, 01:08:30 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet LXXXI

Goddesses of music, song and dance, and the source of inspiration to poets.
Later the Mousai (Muses) were assigned specific artistic spheres

Or I shall live your epitaph to make,
Or you survive when I in earth am rotten;
From hence your memory death cannot take,
Although in me each part will be forgotten.
Your name from hence immortal life shall have,
Though I, once gone, to all the world must die:
The earth can yield me but a common grave,
When you entombed in men's eyes shall lie.
Your monument shall be my gentle verse,
Which eyes not yet created shall o'er-read,
And tongues to be your being shall rehearse,
When all the breathers of this world are dead;
You still shall live (such virtue hath my pen)
Where breath most breathes, even in the mouths of men.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 81
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opXAqhF108I

PatH · « **Reply #4488 on:** September 19, 2016, 09:42:47 AM »

In 79 and 80, we have a new development. The poet has a rival poet.
79:
But now my gracious numbers are decay'd
And my sick Muse doth give another place.

"gracious numbers" refers to his verses, numbers being used here in the uncommon meaning of "verses". His poetry is faltering, being replaced by better stuff.

I grant, sweet love, thy lovely argument
Deserves the travail of a worthier pen;

In 80, he's definitely feeling replaced. One line,

Your shallowest help will hold me up afloat,

although it could just refer to the fact that his insignificant little bark is easily kept afloat, suggests to me that maybe the beloved is also a patron.

Thanks for the ship pictures, Barb.

PatH · « **Reply #4489 on:** September 19, 2016, 09:45:54 AM »

Now, in 81, we get back to one of the regular themes, the beloved will live on in these immortal verses.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4490 on:** September 19, 2016, 11:07:19 AM »

Yes, PatH., I do see Shakespeare is seeing the up and coming poets, and feeling he is failing in his words because his are repetitious and the new, possibly younger poets words are fresh and sounding youthful to him. He sees his aging by comparison.

I just was celebrating my first granddaughter's 21st birthday this past week, and I looked around the room of so many young people, and then of course their were those who were the ages of my son and daughter in law, and then came the few aged group of grandparents with of course me in that group, and I could not but feel a bit like Shakespeare is feeling.... the up and coming new, youthful generation is taking our place. Don't get me wrong, I am happy to be right where I am in life, but I can relate to Shakespeare's last few sonnets.

Leah · « **Reply #4491 on:** September 19, 2016, 06:40:26 PM »

Just a note to say I have been focusing on Latin class with Ginny and the gang today. Hope to keep on with y'all.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4492 on:** September 19, 2016, 08:21:59 PM »

Ok just a quickie - son-in-law emergency heart problem - he is very healthy so we are expecting the best - a little rough so that support needed by daughter and grandsons - no word but he was transferred to another hospital that specializes in the heart - he does not smoke, goes to the gym before work every weekday and eats very healthy - even doctors amazed at his condition for a 60 year old man - my son went through an incident a couple of years ago so he has been able to calm all of us.

Ok - again, we all see what we see and right or wrong is not an issue - all to say

- As I read today's Sonnet I saw him writing like a reverie to the Goddess Muse - and like all goddesses or gods or saints they live on in writings or as statutory -

These are the words that allowed me to romanticize the idea of him conversing with a Goddess - with the rhetorical question, 'what lives on when we have all passed' - writing yes, but also do the stars remain - who knows - are the gods and goddesses immortal - who knows - have we really identified the power that created the universe and man as the god of the bible - who knows - Until we die we will never know and what happens when man is no more - we will only find out when and if it happens and unless the earth burns to a crisp or vaporize at its ending what has been written will still be here.

When all the breathers of this world are dead;
You still shall live (such virtue hath my pen)

Yes, he could be writing about his earthly beloved or earthly muse but I just like the idea he is ruminating with and about the goddess muse.

OK I'll catch up with y'all tomorrow - I'm needed...

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4493 on:** September 20, 2016, 02:00:43 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet LXXXII

Erato, Muse of Poetry. Edward John Poynter (1836-1919)

I grant thou wert not married to my Muse,
And therefore mayst without attaint o'erlook
The dedicated words which writers use
Of their fair subject, blessing every book.
Thou art as fair in knowledge as in hue,
Finding thy worth a limit past my praise,
And therefore art enforc'd to seek anew
Some fresher stamp of the time-bettering days
And do so, love; yet when they have devis'd
What strained touches rhetoric can lend,
Thou truly fair wert truly sympathis'd
In true plain words by thy true-telling friend;
And their gross painting might be better us'd
Where cheeks need blood; in thee it is abus'd.

William Shakespeare Sonnet 82
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DWlGlyrjQg

bellamarie · « **Reply #4494 on:** September 20, 2016, 02:20:00 PM »

Sonnet LXXXII

Seems Shakespeare is saying that although these new fresh poets may have all these excessive styles and words to write about his muse, he is stating they can not write the trueness of her/his beauty because they have not loved this person as he has. I like thinking that although poets and writers can do well at creating their works they can not relate to the words as well as somone who have loved and lived them. A person could never know and feel the true meaning of being in love unless they truly do fall in love with someone, just the same as no one can know how it feels to lose a loved one unless you have personally experienced it.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4495 on:** September 20, 2016, 03:17:42 PM »

Sounds the way I think as well Bellamarie - we all have to walk the walk as the saying goes -

Waiting on baited breath to find out the conclusion of all the tests on son-in-law - if it is the top two sections of his heart - he gets some meds and told to go home however, if the bottom two are the culprits then it is surgery - evidently it is something he inherited and the only reason he has not had any issue up till now is because of his good physical health and daily workouts - hope we find out today and not have to go through another night of not knowing. Found my 9 hour novena to the Infant Jesus of Prague that is on an old scrape of paper shared by a school chum back when we were in High School and before the novena became well known or popular - I can do a 9 hour one far easier than a 9 day... I've 3 more hourly prayer sessions to go...

bellamarie · « **Reply #4496 on:** September 20, 2016, 08:41:46 PM »

Barb, I will be saying prayers for the best results for your son in law. It's the waiting for answers that can be very difficult in situations like this. God be with him and all your family.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4497 on:** September 21, 2016, 12:24:28 AM »

Oh my Bellamarie - thank you - you are so kind and thanks for putting the blurb in the Library - one more day folks and I will be back in body as well as spirit - all the tests today and nothing conclusive so an MRI of Gary's heart will be done in the morning - one thing that is wonderful to hear - any really invasive surgery is now off the table - there may be some minor surgery and that will be better determined in the morning.

I'm telling you when it rains it pours - but not near the truama - turns out my son is have some surgery on Friday - I Know - unbelievable - but sometime over the years one of the three bones in his ear was broken and now causing such a tightened space it has been infection after infection - easy at best since they live just north of Houston that is so humid it is like a swamp - so Friday he has that bone taken care of with a plastic bone replacement - We are so blessed in just these little things - years ago, maybe even when it happened there would not have been such a thing as a replacement bone.

OK Poetry - My take on the first four lines is that if you do not embrace as he calls it marry your muse you will not have success with your writing - got thinking about that in a broader aspect - somewhere along the line the one muse was identified by Hesiod as 9 maidens, daughters of Zeus, all muses to various aspects of the arts including astronomy.

We have adopted a one god over the many but then we seem to have grown a legion or community of saints, all who show us a special gift or virtue in action and so they could be called muses but we Christians seem to prefer they be called saints - all to say there has been a special spiritual vibe for every aspect of life, not just the arts. Sorta like the idea of a special identity regardless if we call it a muse or a saint or simply a special energy that if we marry or embrace the attribute we will have a greater chance of success. I like that even if that is not what Shakespeare meant since he was writer specific.

Interesting statement to be as fair in knowledge as in hue - have to think on that - sorta has me feeling like I was a kid riding a rainbow of knowledge with the pot of gold at either end - hmm maybe the Irish were on to something associating the colorful rainbow with gold and now Shakespeare saying knowledge is as in hue or color.

OK I will really catch up with everyone tomorrow - fingers crossed but the worst is over and Gary may have less invasive surgery that we will learn is an aye or nay tomorrow hahaha and then get ready to call on God again for Paul - if you are not into God then, there is an energy that we call God so, just think on trying to very inadequately affect that energy - prayer probably does more for the one saying the prayers but then that is a whole other subject isn't it.

Tomorrow ---

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4498 on:** September 21, 2016, 01:29:21 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet LXXXIII

I never saw that you did painting need
And therefore to your fair no painting set;
I found, or thought I found, you did exceed
The barren tender of a poet's debt;
And therefore have I slept in your report,
That you yourself being extant well might show
How far a modern quill doth come too short,
Speaking of worth, -- what worth in you doth grow?
This silence for my sin you did impute,
Which shall be most my glory, being dumb;
For I impair not beauty being mute,
When others would give life and bring a tomb.
There lives more life in one of your fair eyes
Than both your poets can in praise devise.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 83
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtC_n1oZNe0

bellamarie · « **Reply #4499 on:** September 21, 2016, 03:15:16 PM »

Barb, so glad to hear the good news about no invasive surgery, and I will continue to pray for him as well as your son's surgery on Friday. It sure does seen when one thing goes wrong, expect yet another. I have seen many an answered prayer, so I believe it truly helps those we pray for, far more than ourself. But then as you pointed out, "but then that is a whole other subject isn't it." Just know you and all your loved ones are in my thoughts & prayers.

Sonnet LXXXIII

I never saw that you did painting need
And therefore to your fair no painting set;

There lives more life in one of your fair eyes
Than both your poets can in praise devise.

These particular lines have me asking if Shakespeare means literally, that he never saw the need for his muse to sit and be painted, because neither words or paint could ever capture her true beauty, as it is in real life?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4500 on:** September 21, 2016, 09:51:23 PM »

OK son-in-law going home - no definitive answer yet as to why - pacemaker will not work - follow up with the heart speciesist is the course of action - so they will come off the trauma of the past few days at home but be living with the uncertainty that comes when you know there is a problem with no course of action yet...

So back to Shakespeare - Wow that is a lot of words - to me it appears like 8 lines of words all to say whom ever he is talking about he is inadequacy able to show, using arts (both visual and writing), the the wonders or beauty of this person who we can assume gender but not directly stated - next he talks of the worth of the principle by way of describing again more of the inadequacies owned by the writer which we assume is Shakespeare describing himself and his silent ability to write befitting the wonder or beauty of the principle.

Goodness I am as round the bush suggesting what I understand this Sonnet is describing that this phenomenon is summed up in the last two lines telling us of fair eyes beyond what both your poets can in praise devise.

Both - who, what, where, is both - is both the writer and his muse or another un-named poet - both - curious - both. I like your summation Bellamarie that he never saw the need for his muse to sit and be painted, because neither words or paint could ever capture her true beauty, as it is in real life - I am thinking you are referring to the human living muse rather than the Goddess we refer to as our Muse.

This sonnet is rather an understatement to my way of thinking - there were other Sonnets that had more meat or are we missing something - but then I read the other day how language is a metaphor, that all language does is describe what we see, hear, feel etc. If language is a metaphor than our descriptions are metaphors for the actual experience - thinking on that, it is an easy leap to realize for most of us when we describe anything we are often inferring a feeling that is not present in what we observe but we overlap what we see or hear or touch with our own feelings and therefore, our own interpretation of a description. hmm its a wonder we understand each other at all...

All to say I do not get any meaning from this Sonnet that has any impact on my life - sounds like someone pumping up their inadequacy of describing beauty to feed the ego of the beautiful one in question. Not a very kind thought on my part is it but I have a problem with folks who parade their inadequacy - we all have them so just get on with it... and to pump up another by describing you own inadequacy - all I want to do is shake my head and think the words I remember as a child used when someone complained or pouted - Oh you poor benighted creature... said with all the pathos you can muster.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4501 on:** September 22, 2016, 12:22:45 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet LXXXIV

Who is it that says most? which can say more
Than this rich praise, that you alone are you?
In whose confine immured is the store
Which should example where your equal grew.
Lean penury within that pen doth dwell
That to his subject lends not some small glory;
But he that writes of you, if he can tell
That you are you, so dignifies his story,
Let him but copy what in you is writ,
Not making worse what nature made so clear,
And such a counterpart shall fame his wit,
Making his style admired every where.
You to your beauteous blessings add a curse,
Being fond on praise, which makes your praises worse.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 84
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFhU814Wex8

bellamarie · « **Reply #4502 on:** September 22, 2016, 01:12:47 AM »

Yes, Barb I was referring to his muse as the real life human, be it male or female he sees so abundantly beautiful, that no pen or paintbrush is able to capture this person's beauty. I feel he uses the word muse in referring to his love because he sees this person as an immortal. Shakespeare over exaggerating, because he is in love with this nameless person, and thinks his/her beauty is beyond describable and can not be captured on paper or canvas. Ughhh.... I suppose some people who are desperately in love do feel this way.

So happy to hear your son in law is going home.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4503 on:** September 22, 2016, 02:24:31 PM »

thanks for you good thoughts Bellamarie - looks like our man is still making mountains out of his ability of lack, to describe this person's beauty - now he seems to be saying if can do it, his poem will become the poem to end all poems and then he must worry that all the accolades will be for him and his poetry rather than for this beautiful creature he is so admiring... this line of thinking is too puffy of ego for me... I guess to write a metaphor in the form of a poem that describes extreme beauty is a challenge and maybe, we do not yet have a poem that does justice to the beauty that has existed but then, if the challenge was met, why would anyone ever write another poem - so all I do is shake my head again - this line of thinking is beyond me.

Never sure if the day of the equinox change is the first day of the new season or the day after the change is when you start to count the first day - either way we are in Autumn that poets since time immoral have done their best to describe - probably different places on earth and even different days down to the various hours show a special epitome of what is a picture of Autumn so that a poet has a lifetime smorgasbord of picture perfect moments to choose from to make his case and cases they have made by to scores.

Actually, we read Shakespeare's offering to Autumn - Sonnet 73 - I wonder if there are any areas that are seeing yellow leaves - seems a bit early but maybe not... a re-read is kind of nice - here it is - Sonnet 73...

That time of year thou mayst in me behold
When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
Bare ruined choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.
In me thou see’st the twilight of such day
As after sunset fadeth in the west;
Which by and by black night doth take away,
Death’s second self, that seals up all in rest.
In me thou see’st the glowing of such fire,
That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
As the deathbed whereon it must expire,
Consumed with that which it was nourished by.
This thou perceiv’st, which makes thy love more strong,
To love that well which thou must leave ere long.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4504 on:** September 22, 2016, 02:43:38 PM »

Found a word that I think is fitting what he is saying that his ability to describe this beauty as beyond his ability to pen - a beauty beyond words - a beauty that is indescribable - the adjective for that is... ineffable.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4505 on:** September 22, 2016, 06:41:17 PM »

My Dogwood tree has changed to it's Fall foliage, and my front porch is all decked out for this beautiful season. I posted a couple of pictures in the Library section.

Perfect word choice, "ineffable" I like it! A re read indeed!!!

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4506 on:** September 22, 2016, 10:58:24 PM »

Shakespeare Sonnet LXXXV

8th-century-bce poet Hesiod, names the 9 Muses;
Clio, the “Proclaimer,” Euterpe, the “Well Pleasing,” Thalia, the “Blooming,” or “Luxuriant,”
Melpomene, the “Songstress,” Erato, the “Lovely,” Polymnia, “She of the Many Hymns,”
Urania, the “Heavenly,” Calliope, “She of the Beautiful Voice,” Terpsichore, “Delighting in the Dance.”

My tongue-tied Muse in manners holds her still,
While comments of your praise, richly compil'd,
[Rehearse thy] character with golden quill,
And precious phrase by all the Muses fil'd.
I think good thoughts while others write good words,
And, like unletter'd clerk, still cry 'Amen'
To every hymn that able spirit affords
In polish'd form of well-refined pen.
Hearing you praised, I say "'Tis so, 'tis true,"
And to the most of praise add something more;
But that is in my thought, whose love to you,
Though words come hindmost, holds his rank before.
Then others for the breath of words respect,
Me for my dumb thoughts, speaking in effect.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 85
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uu8_Vrq0UY

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4507 on:** September 23, 2016, 09:37:06 AM »

Over and over we are told that Hesiod named the muses - curiosity suggests a bit of research - this is a site with the translation of Hesiod's book that includes Hesiod's writing about the muses.

The work, The Theogony and the first section that we would call a chapter today is Hymn to the Muses The book is translated is by H.G.Evelyn-White.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodTheogony.html

I love this bit - a quote of the translated work, "Thence they arise and go abroad by night, veiled in thick mist, and utter their song with lovely voice,"

bellamarie · « **Reply #4508 on:** September 23, 2016, 03:06:58 PM »

Sonnet LXXXV

He seems to continue with his theory that others can write about his muse all they want, and sing their praises, but he and only he alone is filled with silent words that are felt, not just scribed in ink.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4509 on:** September 23, 2016, 03:48:06 PM »

Yes, Bellamarie he gets on a kick doesn't he - this self-effacing one I continue to shake my head slowly back and forth being annoyed - what can I say - so I have turned my attention to learning more about the muses and Hesiod naming them - now at least I have planted in my head who Hesiod was - I heard the name many times but frankly did not know he was a poet - thought more a philosopher like Aristotle.

I've become so annoyed - oh dear but I really have - so that reading the Sonnet I'm having a difficult time even admiring phrases or lines - the best I can come up with is his reference to his pen being well-refined or a golden quill

Well this too shall end - onward...

bellamarie · « **Reply #4510 on:** September 23, 2016, 07:48:14 PM »

I agree, his obsessive repetitiveness can make you lose interest. He gets on one topic be it procreation, depression, beauty, etc., and beats a dead horse.

PatH · « **Reply #4511 on:** September 23, 2016, 09:29:05 PM »

Interesting coincidence--I recently bought a copy of Hesiod, mostly because it was translated by Stanley Lombardo, whose translations are really good, and I'm willing to take a chance on anything he does. It's got both Theogony and Works and Days and is still only a quarter of an inch thick, but I haven't had a chance to look at it yet.

I'm traveling now, so can't look up that passage to see what he does with it.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4512 on:** September 23, 2016, 10:21:36 PM »

It will be interesting Pat to see how the phrase is translated by Lombardo - the romance of it attracted me - veiled in thick mist - looking forward to your post... safe trip.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4513 on:** September 24, 2016, 12:23:16 AM »

Shakespeare Sonnet LXXXVI

Archangel Gabriel (The Writing Muse)

Was it the proud full sail of his great verse,
Bound for the prize of all-too-precious you,
That did my ripe thoughts in my brain inhearse,
Making their tomb the womb wherein they grew?
Was it his spirit, by spirits taught to write
Above a mortal pitch, that struck me dead?
No, neither he, nor his compeers by night
Giving him aid, my verse astonished.
He, nor that affable familiar ghost
Which nightly gulls him with intelligence,
As victors of my silence cannot boast;
I was not sick of any fear from thence:
But when your countenance fil'd up his line,
Then lack'd I matter; that enfeebled mine

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 86
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhVMdWvNNHg

Calling Archangel Gabriel (The Writing Muse)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jwUMQdSlIU

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4514 on:** September 24, 2016, 12:25:47 AM »

It appears we have another muse that is NOT one of the Greek daughter's of Zeus - the angle Gabriel is also a Muse and a Writing Muse at that... included is a link to more information about Gabe...

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4515 on:** September 24, 2016, 01:18:02 PM »

Here I thought after he was aghast that another wrote sailing along for the prize of nailing it and he, our poet, goes blank so that his thoughts for his poem is as if in a tomb that he then says is a womb - I'm expecting exaltation to follow - success, if not sharing the actual words of a poem at least that his poem was growing, which is what I think a womb is suggesting - he did not indicate a dried up womb but rather, one that is opposite to a tomb therefore, very much alive and well.

But no, he keeps the drum beat going of why he cannot write, continuing to blame the other for ruining his ability to write - well our poet clearly does not do well in a competitive prize winning write-off even if the prize is successfully putting into words his admiration for either his love interest or maybe his attachment to his muse.

Seems that because another wrote about the same subject with some success he blames the other writer for his inability to actually write - not because he came in second but actually blames him for his writer's block. Looks like playing the blame game has been around for a long long time.

PatH · « **Reply #4516 on:** September 24, 2016, 05:21:15 PM »

I won't be back east until the 30th, but will have internet in the meantime. Back later.

bellamarie · « **Reply #4517 on:** September 24, 2016, 05:55:17 PM »

Sonnet LXXXVI

But when your countenance fil'd up his line,
Then lack'd I matter; that enfeebled mine

So because this nameless love gave recognition and approval of the other poet's writings, it caused Shakespeare to stop writing, or feel inadequate?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4518 on:** September 24, 2016, 08:53:08 PM »

Ah so Pat I do get confused as to where you hang your hat on a permanent basis - I thought you had an apartment in Oregon and that was your main abode - being silly here but anyhow glad to see you pop in and we will look forward to you ahum being back east - where I think you are saying you are better able to share your thoughts with us...

Yep, Bellamarie he sure is in the blame game isn't he... I guess it is because of his reputation in the literary world that we expect him to be admirable in all of his affairs - clearly he knows not of a writer's block, or that it is not the end of the world when it happens and more, not being able to live with that reality he is a blamer - Ok, actually funny, a democrat in the age of monarchs - meaning he is like everyone else having personal weaknesses, downfalls as well as, skills. Only, his skill is extraordinary. Anyhow, all this during the age of monarchy that I guess we still place authors in a hierarchy expecting only noble behavior keeping them trapped as monarchs of the written word. Ah so...

Hmm just thought - remember back a couple of weeks ago when Leah brought to our attention the link about how we see the world based on our own experiences and expectations - I do not know about Shakespeare but so many of the scholars who have pulled apart what they know of his life are often the very culprits, who are writing from an ego centered viewpoint. I am thinking of the recent interview on the Charlie Rose Show with Ian McEwan.

I am remembering years back when we discussed his Atonement. His book challenged us as he used a new way of telling a story. We were reading his work before any Oscar was presented for the movie however, he had received a Booker and a Whitbread award so that any interview showed a working writer discussing his work. A very different personality showed up at this recent Charlie Rose Show interview - my thought was, what a twit. And now I am thinking - that is it - many writers of all genre take themselves very seriously and if they are successfully read by many some elevate themselves. So that all this about Shakespeare's elevated position among writers is passed along by the many writers who are looking for their own accolades as well as, what they can deduce from his writing showing any elevated thoughts that Shakespeare may have harbored. So we have layers of

twits

establishing the position of Shakespeare on the ladder of success.

Yes, have to give it to him, Shakespeare does offer lots of brilliance to learn from but, now I wonder if there are other writers not in fashion who were brilliant - I'm thinking 'fashion' because if there is a book written there seems to be a need by many a scholar to establish their own prominence by bettering the earlier book - I'm just curious unfortunately, it would take living another lifetime because it would take years of study to see if this premise is spot on or just another cloud of hot air...

ah so, fun to think about... but I guess my mind questioned because Ian McEwan got under my skin. What a twit, full of himself and to turn into that in your elder years to me is sad...

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4519 on:** September 25, 2016, 01:10:42 AM »

Here we go again - so close to the new page that to upload the Sonnet here will be a nuisance

Just as well - this can be a 'before hand' - while looking for some art work of a king asleep came across several paintings of the 'Sleeping Rinaldo" - actually had another that I liked more but it uploaded so slowly you have no idea and it seemed to affect everything on our site - so I switched to what you will see -

The question - who is this sleeping Rinaldo - found all sorts of web sites about the sixteenth century artist and finding the painting etc. etc. but who was Rinaldo that the painting depicted - turns out to be an Epic Poem written about the Crusades and like Roland in The Song of Roland, Rinaldo, a Christian knight is wounded.

So far the only site I found with the Epic Poem, that include 20 Cantos is not a very attractive site and at first goes on and on about the history of the poet and other background information - Where as this site does not include the Epic Poem however, it does a great job of explaining the poem, Jerusalem Delivered, and does include quotes from the poem.

http://www.vintagenovels.com/2014/01/jerusalem-delivered-by-torquato-tasso.html

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